# Reconciliation...



## B1

Reconciliation....

Some definitions:

to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations between (two or more people) 
to settle (a quarrel or difference) 
to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other 
from Latin reconciliare to bring together again, from re- + conciliare to make friendly, conciliate ]

What does it mean to you?


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## messeduplady

Bloody hard work, that's what it means to me at the minute


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## lovemylife26

messeduplady said:


> Bloody hard work, that's what it means to me at the minute


so true!


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## EI

To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter! 

P.S. I love you, B1 <3


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## Regret214

Empty Inside said:


> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening you heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!


:iagree:

Is it plagiarism if I just say DITTO. :scratchhead:

EI, your words express my feelings so clearly. Thank you!


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT2

Empty Inside said:


> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening you heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> P.S. I love you! <3



This is awesome. If people really take this to heart and apply it I'm telling you it would offer help to a ton of relationships.


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## CantSitStill

it means admitting you were wrong yet getting to the point where who is wrong and who is right is not the problem because you are putting the past behind you and starting a new relationship, a better relationship
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

Reconciliation is a myth.


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## EI

Regret214 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Is it plagiarism if I just say DITTO. :scratchhead:
> 
> EI, your words express my feelings so clearly. Thank you!


Thank you and you're welcome!


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## EI

MAKINGSENSEOFIT2 said:


> This is awesome. If people really take this to heart and apply it I'm telling you it would offer help to a ton of relationships.


Thanks! I hope so. I had to learn it the hard way!


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## Regret214

Badblood said:


> Reconciliation is a myth.


So sad.


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## Badblood

I think" renewal" would be a better term. Whenever I think of true renewal, I imagine that the old marriage is like an old blanket, worn, stained, dirty, and full of holes. We may have fond memories of it when it was bright, and pretty and new, but the sad situation is that it no longer works, lets in the cold, was torn and tattered by abuse and neglect. So you take the time and work to unravel it, use your newfound knowledge to make the threads stronger, and proof against the weather, the the two of you re-weave the blanket again, prettier, stronger, better. And instead of neglecting it, you cherish it as an heirloom of your love.


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## MattMatt

betrayed1 said:


> Reconciliation....
> 
> Some definitions:
> 
> to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations between (two or more people)
> to settle (a quarrel or difference)
> to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other
> from Latin reconciliare to bring together again, from re- + conciliare to make friendly, conciliate ]
> 
> What does it mean to you?


Being with the woman I love and being there for her.


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## MattMatt

Badblood said:


> Reconciliation is a myth.


Not if you have done it.

Some people haven't. If so, that's sad. But it is not the reality for everyone.


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## Regret214

Badblood said:


> I think" renewal" would be a better term. Whenever I think of true renewal, I imagine that the old marriage is like an old blanket, worn, stained, dirty, and full of holes. We may have fond memories of it when it was bright, and pretty and new, but the sad situation is that it no longer works, lets in the cold, was torn and tattered by abuse and neglect. So you take the time and work to unravel it, use your newfound knowledge to make the threads stronger, and proof against the weather, the the two of you re-weave the blanket again, prettier, stronger, better. And instead of neglecting it, you cherish it as an heirloom of your love.


Thank you for adding something that elaborates more on your feelings. I do agree with what you say, but in reconciling, there must still pieces of the marriage that are strong in order to be successful. It is not completely new, it is an integration of the past and the present.


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## Badblood

MattMatt said:


> Not if you have done it.
> 
> Some people haven't. If so, that's sad. But it is not the reality for everyone.


Sad? I suppose it is on a certain level. It was sad that my ex had an affair, it was sad that when I offered R she continued to contact the Om, it was sad that she couldn't handle the guilt and remorse, but it definitely isn't sad that we divorced. Freedom is better than what I had with her.


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## CantSitStill

true yet it feels new, a whole new fresh and better beginning that we continue to keep eachother in our hearts forever, always being mindful of the other's needs
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

It means I'll take another chance, I'll open my heart up all over again because I love her that much.
It means I will meet you were you are in this mess and we will work together from there.
It means I want to be friends again, not just lovers but best friends.
It means I want to ultimately put the past behind us and move forward. Not forget the past, but learn from it and move ahead.
It means I am willing to open myself up again to hurt but fully trusting I will never be hurt like this again.
It means we build a new improved marriage.
It means communicating like never before, so we always fully understand where we are in this marriage.
It means doing away with anger, bitternes, resentment.
It means making amends.
It means forgiving.
It means I am in love you.


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## B1

Badblood said:


> I think" renewal" would be a better term. Whenever I think of true renewal, I imagine that the old marriage is like an old blanket, worn, stained, dirty, and full of holes. We may have fond memories of it when it was bright, and pretty and new, but the sad situation is that it no longer works, lets in the cold, was torn and tattered by abuse and neglect. So you take the time and work to unravel it, use your newfound knowledge to make the threads stronger, and proof against the weather, the the two of you re-weave the blanket again, prettier, stronger, better. And instead of neglecting it, you cherish it as an heirloom of your love.


Whoa...Very well put, but I think someone else wrote this response for BB


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## spudster

Don't know, I never tried it with my ex wife.


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## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> You're such an old hard a$$.... and you and I both know that you don't believe that, anyway! I'm not "skeered" of you,.... _anymore!_ You're turning into a "softie." How long you been outta the Marines? You better go back to boot camp.... You're losing your edge!  LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Oh boooooo, I hadn't read your second comment when I posted this one! Geeeeez, I told ya you're getting soft around the edges!


Marines are hard when they NEED to be, soft when they WANT to be, and I can be BOTH at the same time, if you catch my drift>


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## EI

Badblood said:


> Marines are hard when they NEED to be, soft when they WANT to be, and I can be BOTH at the same time, if you catch my drift>


 LOL


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## Badblood

Ahem!! Semper Fidelis performed by the Marine Band - YouTube


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## Badblood

Sorry for the T/J, B1. But the Corps comes first!!!


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## the guy

For me R= never laying a hand on my fWW again.
For Mrs. the_guy R= stop sleeping around.

Sounds simple LOL

BTW if anyone runs into resentment tell it "the guy says, to kiss my @ss". Resentment is the killer of all marriages IMHO.


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## aug

It means you have accepted and are okay with the sharing of your spouse.


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## CantSitStill

Noo now now..it does mean a new start with boundaries..reconcilliation IS possible and I'm never ever gonna give up : p
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

the guy said:


> For me R= never laying a hand on my fWW again.


Well, just not in anger! "Laying hands" on each other is a *very* important part of R!


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## CantSitStill

yes touching is important, even hand holding is important to me staying connected with Calvin...wow sadly we hardly touched eachother for all these years.. What the heck were we thinkng???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Empty you are a very smart lady,, I really like the way you think 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chumplady

I'm of the opinion that true reconciliation, the trope in which you not only survive the betrayal but are "better off for it" is a Unicorn.

I do believe marriages endure. I do not believe they are made stronger or better by infidelity. 

Some discussion of "unicorns" -- for and against is here:

Dear Chump Lady, As a unicorn, I am offended


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## Racer

To me, what reconciled would mean:
If we weren't already married, I would propose.

Seriously... That's it. Simple. It wouldn't have conditions attached to it; I'd just want to spend the rest of my life with her.


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Empty you are a very smart lady,, I really like the way you think
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel the same way about you, CSS!


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## B1

Racer said:


> To me, what reconciled would mean:
> If we weren't already married, I would propose.
> 
> Seriously... That's it. Simple. It wouldn't have conditions attached to it; I'd just want to spend the rest of my life with her.


Funny you mention that, I did just that, I asked her to marry me, again. I do plan on renewing our vows sometime in the near future.


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## EI

chumplady said:


> I'm of the opinion that true reconciliation, the trope in which you not only survive the betrayal but are "better off for it" is a Unicorn.
> 
> *I do believe marriages endure. I do not believe they are made stronger or better by infidelity.
> *
> Some discussion of "unicorns" -- for and against is here:
> 
> Dear Chump Lady, As a unicorn, I am offended


While I would agree that no marriage is *ever* made stronger by the infidelity, itself, that marriages can indeed be made better, stronger and more loving than ever before by the lessons that can be learned in the aftermath of infidelity. I know that mine is and I have seen it happen with others, as well. Now, my R hasn't stood the test of time, but I know that B1 and I are in a place that we probably wouldn't have gotten to had we taken any other route...... unfortunately.


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## calvin

chumplady said:


> I'm of the opinion that true reconciliation, the trope in which you not only survive the betrayal but are "better off for it" is a Unicorn.
> 
> I do believe marriages endure. I do not believe they are made stronger or better by infidelity.
> 
> Some discussion of "unicorns" -- for and against is here:
> 
> Dear Chump Lady, As a unicorn, I am offended


Well,I'm going to prove to you that you're wrong,my wife had a four month EA with hs bf,yep they did meet four times,kisses goodbye,quick peck on the cheeck and lips.More than that happen? No. People to tell the truth more than you think.Did I verify? Yes I did and I still snoop.
6 months into R...very hard for me but the tide is turning and have discused it many times and in lenght.
This was pretty hard bc OM kept calling me with threat and vile things about my family that were'nt true.
WW pretty much lost it over what she did.She has bent over backward to prove a lot of things.
She derserves this chance and I can say 100% it will never happen again.I'm not a fool...go ahead say"fool me once thing" but you must have had a real bad experience,yes I've been to youre sit and have learned quite a bit from it.
Check on us all you want,we will still be together
Calvin and CantSit Still.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I do not believe it's all unicorns..no the aftermath is hell to heal. I do not beieve an affair can make a marriage better or save a marriage..no way! But I believe I have learned so much sionce the affair. I have learned how much my husband loves me after I betrayed him. I have learned to never take him for granted, i have learned to never run away from any problems we have. I have learned to always put him first, to appreciate him and we both learned to do what it takes to make the other happy.. I am very much more aware now. We have boundries. Sadly it should not take an affair to have learned all of this and I regret what I did very very much. I need to stop learning things the hard way. I did a terrible thing but that does NOT mean I will do it again.. Some people don't ever learn and continue the path of destruction but some people actually rehabilitate and turn into a better person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy

I do think that some people can reconcile, but I don't think it's the same kind of thing for all people. Some people just need to build a bridge and cross it, but others need to tear everything down and begin again. 

Betrayal and estrangement allows us to see where the holes and gaps and weak spots are in a situation and I think that reconciliation is a commitment to a strong partnership. Again, that means different things for different couples.

For some people, the only way to reconcile as individual people who care for each other is to let go of a marriage that doesn't work. There are many ways to be connected to people that we love.


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## moxy

betrayed1 said:


> It means I'll take another chance, I'll open my heart up all over again because I love her that much.
> It means I will meet you were you are in this mess and we will work together from there.
> It means I want to be friends again, not just lovers but best friends.
> It means I want to ultimately put the past behind us and move forward. Not forget the past, but learn from it and move ahead.
> It means I am willing to open myself up again to hurt but fully trusting I will never be hurt like this again.
> It means we build a new improved marriage.
> It means communicating like never before, so we always fully understand where we are in this marriage.
> It means doing away with anger, bitternes, resentment.
> It means making amends.
> It means forgiving.
> It means I am in love you.


I agree with these, except that last one. I think that saying "I am committed to you" and meaning it, is more important than feeling "in love" because "in love" is also possible in an affair fog.


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## EI

moxy said:


> "in love" is also possible in an affair fog.


Wow..... you are absolutely right!


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## Nikki1023

To me, it means being able to move forward and accept what has happened between you and the person you are reconciling with. Basically allowing yourself to be happy and hopefully trust again.


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## EI

betrayed1 said:


> It means I will meet you were you are in this mess and we will work together from there.


That was the start, the real start of our reconciliation. That is when I knew that you truly loved me the way that I had yearned to be loved for so long. That is when years of hurt, resentment and bitterness melted away. In a moment.... I was healed. I am praying and hoping that you, too, will have a "moment" and that your pain will be healed, as well. I believe in miracles because we are a miracle.


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## iJordan

I think that people who claim that their marriage is better post-affair are deluding themselves. Sure, aspects may be better—perhaps they have improved communication or intimacy, for example—but the structural integrity will always be compromised.

In my opinion, a sensible reconciliation includes the realisation that there is no 'new marriage' with your cheating spouse; there is just the attempt to rebuild your broken marriage in the hope that it will be enough.


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## iheartlife

chumplady said:


> I'm of the opinion that true reconciliation, the trope in which you not only survive the betrayal but are "better off for it" is a Unicorn.
> 
> I do believe marriages endure. I do not believe they are made stronger or better by infidelity.
> 
> Some discussion of "unicorns" -- for and against is here:
> 
> Dear Chump Lady, As a unicorn, I am offended


I've enjoyed reading your blog entries.

And while I agree that many cheaters are narcissists, or have BPD or an abuse background, or don't love themselves deep down and act in self-destructive ways, that doesn't explain why every human being has an affair.

A good reconciliation probably requires several things--first that both partners are equally recommitted to the marriage. If either partner is staying in the relationship just for the kids, or for finances, or embarrassment at being outed, etc., well that isn't a "true" reconciliation, in my view.

Second, that the marriage had a good loving foundation before the cheating happened, at some point. In my view, the longer that foundation went on, the more of a reference point there is for the two who are reconciling. For example, my husband and I knew each other for 15 years, and were married for 10, when his affair began. The relationship was essentially good at its core during the majority of that time, mutual respect, two mentally healthy people, etc. Obviously there are cases of marriages 3x and 4x longer than ours with a devastating relationship-ending affair. But that doesn't make this foundation less important.

Third, there has to be an attitude of renewal. There is no more taking each other for granted, no more second chances. No falling back into the same habits that led to the two partners growing apart. So actively spending 15 to 20 hours a week together, for example, something that has to be desired by both. Learning to fight fair. Recognition of the issues that were hot topics since the start of the relationship--and deciding you're either going to live with them, or else leave. For example, my husband is chronically late. Does anyone think he's going to magically stop doing this now, 20 years in? He has become better about getting to church on time, at least. But this is something that I'm going to have to live with if I want to stay married--he is an eternal optimist who believes that time can magically expand to include more than it ever will.

Infidelity can be like a near-death experience. Sadly many people have to become gravely ill, or watch a loved one die, or otherwise have a crisis before they wake up to the fact that we are all mortal, we all have one life to live. Infidelity is like that. Many people actively choose to live without the cheater. They have one life, and that's what they want to do, put the cheater behind them and live alone or try again with someone else. 

Others of us would rather forge a new relationship with our previously unfaithful spouse. That is a measurement only we can take. We are weighing their good qualities against their bad actions and deciding whether or not it's all worth it. As long as this choice is made consciously, without any limitations (financial, social, parental, etc.), it's up to the people in the relationship to make a go of it. We can privately disagree, but like so many other things in life, it's never a good idea to assume that because WE cannot handle something and prefer not to do so, that other people must be insane / stupid / needy / weak etc.

All I can tell you is that I can easily earn more than my husband does. I have a supportive network of family and friends. I like myself, I think I'm attractive enough that I wouldn't lack for male companionship if I sought it out. Frankly, I lack for NOTHING if I were to choose to divorce him--there are divorcees amongst our neighbors and friends as time goes on and the support (particularly for the wives) is extensive. I also don't believe that two people should stay together for the children--I don't think the statistics bear this out as being a good thing if the relationship between the parents is poor. So I have every single bit of ability (including the self-confidence and courage) to walk away. I just choose not to.


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## Harken Banks

CantSitStill said:


> Noo now now..it does mean a new start with boundaries..reconcilliation IS possible and I'm never ever gonna give up : p
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Obligatory Rick Roll: RickRoll'D - YouTube


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## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> That was the start, the real start of our reconciliation. That is when I knew that you truly loved me the way that I had yearned to be loved for so long. That is when years of hurt, resentment and bitterness melted away. In a moment.... I was healed. I am praying and hoping that you, too, will have a "moment" and that your pain will be healed, as well. I believe in miracles because we are a miracle.


wow I swear I coulda wrote that because it's exactly how I felt and feel.. wow that happens alot, you write something and it sounds just like me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

I would venture that most of us hanging around here don't yet know. Notwithstanding the many several moments of certitude and clarity. We have ideas. Many have been well stated, ring as truth, and are compelling. But here we are. This post is not cynicism. It's realism laced with optimism. Or the other way around -we're still here.


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## SomedayDig

Yeah...all the psycho-babble mumbo jumbo aside with a grain of Tony Robbins...reconciliation for me means that Regret and I move on from the dumb crap she did and create a BETTER marriage. Yup. A BETTER marriage regardless of naysayers.

Reconciliation is what you wanna make of it. Oh, I know there's a whole lotta stuff I've worked on and Regret has worked on, but in the end it sucks how we got here, but I'm glad this is where we are.


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## Harken Banks

That kind of strength will carry it.


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## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> regardless of naysayers


Oddly, this has been a big motivator. Us against the world!



SomedayDig said:


> it sucks how we got here


Yup.



SomedayDig said:


> but I'm glad this is where we are.


I have some evolving to do.


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## iJordan

Naysayer has connotations of pessimism; I don't think that is accurate description of my position. Realist perhaps? Part of me envies those of you who can fathom a post-affair supramarriage, but I'm not convinced that it is an honest belief.


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## Harken Banks

It is depressing to hear, no doubt. But it also fuels a resolve to prove them wrong. Hard work all the way. You can't do it alone. But with a committed partner by your side, . . ..


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Yeah...all the psycho-babble mumbo jumbo aside with a grain of Tony Robbins...reconciliation for me means that Regret and I move on from the dumb crap she did and create a BETTER marriage. Yup. A BETTER marriage regardless of naysayers.
> 
> Reconciliation is what you wanna make of it. Oh, I know there's a whole lotta stuff I've worked on and Regret has worked on, but in the end it sucks how we got here, but I'm glad this is where we are.


Hey, whatever works for you, Dig! I like loving words and poetic sounding phrases (or, psycho-babble mumbo jumbo)...... but, "moving on from all of the dumb crap we WWs' of TAM have done" sounds good to me, too! Whatever it takes. B1 and I post lovely things to each other on TAM on and off all day. Then, usually, at some point during the evening he will trigger from something he read, tonight it was something I had posted.... yeah me..... I had to work my magic on him (which, BTW, has nothing to do with poetic phrases and lovely sounding words..... in fact, it includes several raunchy four letter words... ) and tuck him in. Hence, one more day of R in the can. Boo-Ya!  Whatever it takes................


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## EI

iJordan said:


> Naysayer has connotations of pessimism; I don't think that is accurate description of my position. Realist perhaps? Part of me envies those of you who can fathom a post-affair supramarriage, but I'm not convinced that it is an honest belief.


Well, you can always take your chances and start over with someone else. But, I figure that anyone over 30 (and B1 & I are a few years past that) has their own share of baggage.... just with someone else. So, start over with someone who shares the same baggage you do or take your chances with a whole new, unknown set of baggage. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Especially, if you happen to love that devil!


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## iheartlife

iJordan said:


> Naysayer has connotations of pessimism; I don't think that is accurate description of my position. Realist perhaps? Part of me envies those of you who can fathom a post-affair supramarriage, but I'm not convinced that it is an honest belief.


My marriage certainly isn't better than anyone else's...it's not like it's a competitive sport. It only has to be vastly improved, as far as we are concerned, from where it was before. Ending the affair means that the energy and attention channeled into that can return to the partnership. So if it's willingly, mutually given, of course the relationship is going to be better than it used to be. I guess some people might stay even though the affair has ended and the relationship sucks. Too bad for them that they feel their options are so limited.

If I had to explain the difference, it's that we aren't children any more playing house. We aren't staying together because it's the "right thing to do" or because it's the next step after dating a while. It's an active, conscious choice.

If there's anything mystifying to it, it's the "why" that in some relationships, both partners want this, and in others, only one of them does. You can't make your partner desire a better marriage. They have to want it on their own and exhibit the changes that are needed. If you read about failing recommitments (as long as the affair and cheating has truly ended, of course) it's because one or other one isn't really into it even without the affair.


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## Gabriel

iJordan said:


> I think that people who claim that their marriage is better post-affair are deluding themselves. Sure, aspects may be better—perhaps they have improved communication or intimacy, for example—but the structural integrity will always be compromised.
> 
> In my opinion, a sensible reconciliation includes the realisation that there is no 'new marriage' with your cheating spouse; there is just the attempt to rebuild your broken marriage in the hope that it will be enough.


This is interesting. I will say this - and it's very hard to admit it, but catching my wife falling for another man woke me the hell up. I ignored her pleas for years, but it took me reading an email saying she dreamed of him every day for me to realize just how much I had been neglecting things. 

The ensuing time was extremely painful. If I had not seen the email, she would have fallen further and further for him, probably consumated it in a PA, and I would still be half-assedly trying to make things okay between us, none the wiser. She would have been past the point of no return. 

But I caught it very early, reached down into the abyss full of muddy garbage, grabbed her finger and started pulling her up. Eventually, I got the hand, then the arm, and now she's out of the hole, even though she's still got some mud on her.

Is our marriage better now? In some ways yes. We have more honestly, she is emotionally re-engaging with me, and I her. In other ways it's worse, because I don't feel as safe. I've lost my innocence. 

Bottom line is nobody can answer this question for anyone else but themselves.


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## iJordan

Empty Inside said:


> Well, you can always take your chances and start over with someone else. But, I figure that anyone over 30 (and B1 & I are a few years past that) has their own share of baggage.... just with someone else. So, start over with someone who shares the same baggage you do or take your chances with a whole new, unknown set of baggage. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Especially, if you happen to love that devil!


For sure. Even if your pre-affair marriage has been diminished by 30% because of the affair, 70% of the old marriage may still be worth it. That, in my opinion, is the difference between those who can reconcile and those can't: those who can accept a diminished version of their marriage as enough and those who can't.



iheartlife said:


> My marriage certainly isn't better than anyone else's...it's not like it's a competitive sport. It only has to be vastly improved, as far as we are concerned, from where it was before.


Aspects will be improved, but, as I previously said: 



> ...the structural integrity will always be compromised.





iheartlife said:


> Ending the affair means that the energy and attention channeled into that can return to the partnership. So if it's willingly, mutually given, of course the relationship is going to be better than it used to be.


Again, aspects will be better from the return of _'energy and attention'_ to the relationship; however, fidelity is the foundation of a relationship—a foundation that is permanently cracked post-affair. I'm sure allusions to building on a bad foundation are not lost to you.

Contrasting the two marriages at their highest potential, the post-affair marriage can never exceed the pre-affair marriage. I would contend that for the betrayed spouse, no amount of improvement in other areas will truly outweigh the diminishing effect of infidelity, resulting in a post-affair marriage that is, to quote myself again:



> ...the attempt to rebuild your broken marriage *in the hope that it will be enough.*


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## Vegemite

True reconciliation is possible, but extremely rare I would think. 

For me it would require total honesty right from the start, no trickle truth. I didn't get that.

It also requires total remorse. I have, and I'm sure many here have, become expert at reading our spouses. I know true remorse and honesty when I see it, and I don't see it in my CW. It's sad that some BSs who think they have got a real R happening, haven't. 

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. It's from bad experience that I believe this.

And also, How do you truly love someone who has chosen to go and have sex with someone else?


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## iJordan

I should probably also note that my argument hinges on the assumption that fidelity is the foundation of a relationship. In relationships where that is not the case—where the other aspects (communication, intimacy, respect, etc.) are given heavier weighting—then a post-affair marriage may well supersede a pre-affair marriage.


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## iheartlife

Vegemite said:


> And also, How do you truly love someone who has chosen to go and have sex with someone else?


Yeah, I don't have an answer to that one.




> Contrasting the two marriages at their highest potential, the post-affair marriage can never exceed the pre-affair marriage. I would contend that for the betrayed spouse, no amount of improvement in other areas will truly outweigh the diminishing effect of infidelity


This is what I was trying to explain: my H and I will never be our 20-something selves again. Nor do we want to be, in many ways. We are in our mid-40's now. So our marriage is better now that we've reconnected because we are older and more mature. When the energy gets channeled back in, it isn't a renewed marriage in the sense of what it was in the first 5 years. But we don't want that, anyhow. I can't articulate it much better than this; then, there were parts of ourselves that we hid, because it didn't seem to matter. Now we are naked before each other, mentally and emotionally. That is a choice we've made because we realize that it is the direction of growth for our marriage. It is better because we are sharing more of ourselves with each other than we ever did. 

It's not as if the marriage was "perfect" and now it's not (i.e., the cracked foundation analogy). It was never perfect, because we are all human. It's just different, and in my view, I like these differences more than the ones that existed before.


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## chumplady

> Well, you can always take your chances and start over with someone else. But, I figure that anyone over 30 (and B1 & I are a few years past that) has their own share of baggage.... just with someone else. So, start over with someone who shares the same baggage you do or take your chances with a whole new, unknown set of baggage. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Especially, if you happen to love that devil!


Well, here is a different perspective -- in my 40s, I did leave my cheating ex husband and later found a "new devil" -- and I have to tell you, without reserve, that there is NO comparison to being in a happy, healthy, reciprocal marriage with fidelity, than there is being in a marriage that was shattered by infidelity. 

I think a lot of reconciling people try to brush off the notion that it could be MUCH BETTER on the other side with the old "better the devil you know" thing. In my case, I get, well, you had the Dreadful Sort of Cheater. (And I did). The Several Standard Deviations Off the Charts Freak.

And really, he was *very typical* of a lot WSs. He was a serial cheater with a LTA. He quit the affair, he did the counseling, he expressed remorse, he blubbed a lot, tried harder to win me back, he gave me his passwords, he went to church, he apologized to his mother, etc. He'd get one step ahead, and then one step back. Oh, and I loved him madly at the time. 

So, it's not like I didn't have the ingredients for a "successful" R. It is just that like so very many WSs -- *he could not sustain it*. Over time, he could NOT do the hard work. He liked all the benefits of his entitlement thinking and lifestyle. It was hard to be humble. It sucked to quit his LTA, so he hid it better. 

While I was living R, I would have told you that I had one of those super sorry spouses who was going to beat the odds. 

Thank GOD I chucked it. I mean, thank you Jesus. Because a better man was waiting. 

Somehow people think THAT is the unicorn, THAT is the impossibility -- that there is a good person, a good partner for you out there when you're in your 40s (or any age). To which I say -- bullish*t. 

Good people exist. Every person who has the heart to try to forgive a cheater is a good, good person. And a person, IMO, who would be better served by moving on and finding another person just like them. 

The devil you don't know may be a hell of a lot better than the devil you do know. And probably is by virtue of the fact that that devil hasn't cheated on you.


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## Gabriel

chumplady said:


> Well, here is a different perspective -- in my 40s, I did leave my cheating ex husband and later found a "new devil" -- and I have to tell you, without reserve, that there is NO comparison to being in a happy, healthy, reciprocal marriage with fidelity, than there is being in a marriage that was shattered by infidelity.
> 
> I think a lot of reconciling people try to brush off the notion that it could be MUCH BETTER on the other side with the old "better the devil you know" thing. In my case, I get, well, you had the Dreadful Sort of Cheater. (And I did). The Several Standard Deviations Off the Charts Freak.
> 
> And really, he was *very typical* of a lot WSs. He was a serial cheater with a LTA. He quit the affair, he did the counseling, he expressed remorse, he blubbed a lot, tried harder to win me back, he gave me his passwords, he went to church, he apologized to his mother, etc. He'd get one step ahead, and then one step back. Oh, and I loved him madly at the time.
> 
> So, it's not like I didn't have the ingredients for a "successful" R. It is just that like so very many WSs -- *he could not sustain it*. Over time, he could NOT do the hard work. He liked all the benefits of his entitlement thinking and lifestyle. It was hard to be humble. It sucked to quit his LTA, so he hid it better.
> 
> While I was living R, I would have told you that I had one of those super sorry spouses who was going to beat the odds.
> 
> Thank GOD I chucked it. I mean, thank you Jesus. Because a better man was waiting.
> 
> Somehow people think THAT is the unicorn, THAT is the impossibility -- that there is a good person, a good partner for you out there when you're in your 40s (or any age). To which I say -- bullish*t.
> 
> Good people exist. Every person who has the heart to try to forgive a cheater is a good, good person. And a person, IMO, who would be better served by moving on and finding another person just like them.
> 
> The devil you don't know may be a hell of a lot better than the devil you do know. And probably is by virtue of the fact that that devil hasn't cheated on you.


Very well articulated, but this is your personal experience. Everyone's is different - some find happiness again in their current marriage, some don't and are better off searching again. There is no universal answer.


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## EI

chumplady said:


> Good people exist.* Every person who has the heart to try to forgive a cheater is a good, good person. *And *a person, IMO, who would be better served by moving on and finding another person just like them. *


That is a sweeping generalization that cannot possibly hold true in *all* cases. Perhaps, there are those who have the heart to try to forgive a "cheater" because they know that they, themselves, were not without fault in their relationships. In fact, there are even those who would forgive a cheater who may not even be good, good people. Having been cheated on, *by itself*, does not make you, or anyone, a good person. And, then there is simply the person who realizes that their former cheating spouse is, in fact, themselves a good person who made a bad choice. If they happen to love that person and that person loves them, then moving on and finding someone new would not better serve them. Every individual and situation is different and cannot be measured by your own relationship experience..... meaning your exclusive yardstick.

With that having been said, I love happy endings and I am very happy that you have found yours!


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## Badblood

iJordan said:


> I think that people who claim that their marriage is better post-affair are deluding themselves. Sure, aspects may be better—perhaps they have improved communication or intimacy, for example—but the structural integrity will always be compromised.
> 
> In my opinion, a sensible reconciliation includes the realisation that there is no 'new marriage' with your cheating spouse; there is just the attempt to rebuild your broken marriage in the hope that it will be enough.


For the most part, I agree, but there are a very few examples of a complete turnaround of a marriage. I would say that in almost all cases, the mind-set of both the BS and WS in these "renewed", or "reconstructed", marriage is that the old marriage is dead and buried. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.


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## Almostrecovered

Chumplady

I suppose I have some disagreement with you in regards to your perspective and beliefs on R.

For starters I do believe my marriage is in a better place than before, quantifying how is a difficult matter and certainly not every factor of what makes a marriage good is better and yes that's due to infidelity. In fact, I think by saying that the infidelity itself made my marriage better would be a crock and disingenuous. It was the hard work that both my wife and I put into our marriage after her affair. However, make no mistake about it, It didn't have to take that betrayal for us to get to where we are now, I am certain of that. 

That said, I am having more fun with my wife than ever, having more and better sex, gained a deeper emotional connection, achieved a better understanding of each other and through hard work from both of us even achieved a better way of communication with each other.

I suppose if there is one thing that I am thankful for that stemmed from the infidelity is that is a direct result of my wife's cheating is that I am no longer blind to the fact that it can all go away. And I am perfectly fine with that fact. I choose not to live with that fear and will enjoy the ride until it ends. Which isn't to say that I live with my head buried in the sand either, I'm very cognizant of who she is and what she was capable of doing and will never discount that it won't happen again. But I can't control that and if it happens it happens, I won't claim that my life was wasted, it is my choice to stay with her and as of right now I have no regrets about R and haven't had that feeling of doubt for quite some time.


But that is what life is, isn't it? Moments of good and bad, the boring and the exciting, the scary and the secure, etc. Like life, marriages are dynamic. You can look at any particular moment and make an assessment of whether it's good or bad. But you really can't assess an entire marriage until the end. If my marriage ended today, I would have said it was worth it. I had some really tough times obviously but the whole of the marriage cannot be judged on solely those moments. 

I'm not someone who believes in many absolutes. In most situations, when someone has an opinion and uses "never" or "always" then I tend to discount that opinion. I don't begrudge those who choose D over R. I think everyone has their own capability of what they can or cannot reconcile, everyone has their own line in the sand and yes that line has a tendency of moving in different parts of our lives. 

I'm not a pro-D person, I'm not a pro-R/marriage person, I'm pro-"be happy" person. I think if someone wants to R then they need to have some semblance of tools to rebuild and do that successfully. I think if someone wants to D then they need a different set of tools to rebuild their lives as well. Ultimately, that is why I am here and why I post/advise/help. I wish to help people gain knowledge and gain those tools and learn how to utilize them properly. I know that I have an easier time of advising those who choose to R due to my own experience but I don't think it is for everybody and I most certainly have recommended D on many occasions.


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## Badblood

An example of this would be my cousin Ron and his wife Jean. After they married, Ron continued to be a player, until Jean had enough . She divorced him, dated other men, and had basically moved on. He came back, convinced her that his playing days were over, they re=married and are doing great. BTW, in their first marriage , they had no kids, but now they have 5 and are the happiest , nicest family I know of.


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## EI

Badblood said:


> An example of this would be my cousin Ron and his wife Jean. After they married, Ron continued to be a player, until Jean had enough . She divorced him, dated other men, and had basically moved on. He came back, convinced her that his playing days were over, they re=married and are doing great. BTW, in their first marriage , they had no kids, but now they have 5 and are the happiest , nicest family I know of.


Wow, I love this story! I like both of them and I haven't even met them. Jean thought enough of herself to let Ron go. Ron loved Jean enough to change his ways. They loved each other enough to put the past in the past and have the future together that they both desire. That's a real love story!


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## Almostrecovered

one more thing I wish to debate in your blog post CL-



> At the end of the day, reconciliation with one or more of those challenges is a relationship that is predicated on amnesia.



Amnesia is forgetting or perhaps in the context you state it you meant ignoring or denying it to oneself.


I will never forget those moments. They are burned into my brain. I just choose to not live in those moments constantly or wallow in them. And I do not ignore those memories, I learned from them. I faced those moments and in some sense I conquered those moments. My wife demonstrated that she can be a changed person and worked her ass off to do that for me. Had she not, I would have filed. I will never forget nor will I dwell. No more than I would dwell on my own poor decisions in life. It's an equilibrium we must achieve if we are to improve ourselves. If I am to improve, I need to examine and correct or atone for past decisions but living in those mistakes indefinitely will not help my cause to be a better person. I think my wife was able to do that as well.


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## RWB

betrayed1 said:


> Reconciliation....
> 
> Some definitions:
> 
> to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations between (two or more people)
> to settle (a quarrel or difference)
> to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other
> from Latin reconciliare to bring together again, from re- + conciliare to make friendly, conciliate ]
> 
> What does it mean to you?


Interesting... I didn't see any mention of the 800lb Gorilla sitting in the corner of the room???


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## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> I suppose if there is one thing that I am thankful for that stemmed from the infidelity is that is a direct result of my wife's cheating is that I am no longer blind to the fact that it can all go away. And I am perfectly fine with that fact. I choose not to live with that fear and will enjoy the ride until it ends. Which isn't to say that I live with my head buried in the sand either, I'm very cognizant of who she is and what she was capable of doing and will never discount that it won't happen again. But I can't control that and if it happens it happens, I won't claim that my life was wasted, it is my choice to stay with her and as of right now I have no regrets about R and haven't had that feeling of doubt for quite some time.


I loved your whole post.... but this part really struck me as meaningful! If everyone realized that "it could all go away" at any time, then maybe none of us would ever take a single day for granted. B1 and I are, both, working very hard on our R. We are in the early stages, but I am extremely hopeful that we will be successful and I am happy to enjoy every new and wonderful day with him.... with all of the good and bad mixed in. And, I know, for sure, that this life of mine, with him, has not been a waste. I really love that you are a couple of years out and can honestly say that you have no regrets. That gives me a reason to keep hoping, believing and working hard to show B1 how much I love him and how grateful I am everyday that he chose to stay in this life and in this marriage with me.


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## Badblood

On a cautionary note, I am extremely skeptical of some of these rapid reconciliations, we are seeing on TAM, recently. Many of them have gone directly from D-day to the hysterical bonding period, with only minor stops along the way. It's always been my belief that if something is too good to be true, then it probably isn't. While I wish them well, I feel that the speedy approach to R ( while romantic and squishy) is usually faulty and "then comes the deluge".


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## Almostrecovered

Badblood said:


> On a cautionary note, I am extremely skeptical of some of these rapid reconciliations, we are seeing on TAM, recently. Many of them have gone directly from D-day to the hysterical bonding period, with only minor stops along the way. It's always been my belief that if something is too good to be true, then it probably isn't. While I wish them well, I feel that the speedy approach to R ( while romantic and squishy) is usually faulty and "then comes the deluge".



they go through stages, I went through the same stage my self. It wasn't until I hit the 5-7 month post Dday period that it started to "hit me". R from infidelity is a "long haul".


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## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> Wow, I love this story! I like both of them and I haven't even met them. Jean thought enough of herself to let Ron go. Ron loved Jean enough to change his ways. They loved each other enough to put the past in the past and have the future together that they both desire. That's a real love story!


Yes, EI, it is a great story, but there is a cautionary note, too , that all of you guys trying to R should note. Jean and Ron's first marriage lasted 4 years, they were divorced for 3 more years, THEN Ron courted her for another year, before they married again. It took them 8 years to get it right......think about it.


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## Badblood

Almostrecovered said:


> they go through stages, I went through the same stage my self. It wasn't until I hit the 5-7 month post Dday period that it started to "hit me". R from infidelity is a "long haul".


I agree. Plus I feel that , in some cases, these couples are making the Hysterical bonding phase, the BASIS for their recovery, and are not spending nearly enough time on the HARD, self-improvement issues that both the BS and WS must address for any R to be long-term.


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## EI

RWB said:


> Interesting... I didn't see any mention of the *800lb Gorilla sitting in the corner of the room*???



The 800 lb. gorilla would be me and I'm less than 5' tall and am a size 4. Hopefully, B1 thinks there are worse gorillas that he could be stuck with in this life!


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## Almostrecovered

if you're a gorilla then you must be a nit picker


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## iheartlife

I think here's the core hypothesis for Chumplady (feel free to correct me CL if I'm wrong):

--nearly all cheaters are serial cheaters at heart--just because they've cheated once doesn't mean they aren't a serial cheater--you just didn't catch them / haven't caught them yet

--because of their true nature as serial cheaters, you are making a bad choice to stay with them, they are too damaged to be fixed, and they will betray you again


Even IF this were arguably true of a majority of cheaters--and I doubt it is (a plurality, even a large plurality, but I doubt the majority)--that still doesn't account for all human beings. And while I'm willing to make a lot of assumptions about them, the idea that virtually all cheaters are serial cheaters, and that virtually all cheaters are severely psychologically damaged, is not a leap of logic that I'm willing to take, because I can see for myself that this isn't true in many cases.


Ironically, this might surprise people who regularly read my posts, because I often weigh in with the opinion that a cheater isn't just a cheater, but is a serial cheater, and that serial cheaters are very often f*cked up, and that these issues require LOTS of therapy, and that unfortunately the more severe diagnoses (NPD and BPD) have VERY poor prognoses, and that because of all these things, a person married to such a cheater needs to make a cold, hard, non-emotional assessment about what they gain by staying.

But, that is a far cry from saying ALL cheaters are like that. They just aren't! Human beings are just waaaaay too complicated for there to be a "unified theory of cheating." We try super hard around here, but life is more complicated than that.


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## B1

iJordan said:


> I think that people who claim that their marriage is better post-affair are deluding themselves. Sure, aspects may be better—perhaps they have improved communication or intimacy, for example—but the structural integrity will always be compromised.
> 
> In my opinion, a sensible reconciliation includes the realisation that there is no 'new marriage' with your cheating spouse; there is just the attempt to rebuild your broken marriage in the hope that it will be enough.


I can tell you our marriage is already better than before the affair. Even in my hurt and pain. We had no marriage prior to the affair. No communications, sleeping in different rooms, we were simply house mates, parents and I was barely that. Every aspect of our marriage right now is better than before the affair. This isn't dellusional it's a fact.

Sure we have issues to deal with, hurdles to overcome but now....we talk, laugh, cry, love, cuddle, hold hands, enjoy each other, and more..we DID NOT do this pre-affair.

I wouldn't settle for enough, nor would my wife not for a minute.. I want it all, if we can't have that then we go our seperate ways. I am not in this NEW marriage to just have enough to get by on...good grief that would be sad and I deserver more than enough or to just settle. 

Your post may by correct for some but it isn't correct for all. I am living proof of that, and I am not dellusional, I am sane as can be, the voices in my head even tell me so


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## chumplady

> -nearly all cheaters are serial cheaters at heart--just because they've cheated once doesn't mean they aren't a serial cheater--you just didn't catch them / haven't caught them yet
> 
> --because of their true nature as serial cheaters, you are making a bad choice to stay with them, they are too damaged to be fixed, and they will betray you again


I try to explain it pretty well on my chumplady blog, but no, I don't think ALL cheaters are serial cheaters. (I have a post entitled A Spectrum of Cheaters.) I think there are exit affairs, ONS, and I agree that serial cheaters are at the end of a spectrum.

I do think many (but yes, not all -- but a good number of) cheaters cop to lesser offenses and will admit to only what you've got on them. If you only have evidence of an EA, they'll say it was an EA until evidence surfaces of a PA. If they say it was a ONS, you find out it was more than once. If it was just kissing, no, it was sex. Etc. 

My point is -- it is ALL RISK. *You don't know*, and unless you want a marriage of being the marriage police or have a time travel machine, you probably aren't ever going to know. Cheaters lie. You cannot cheat unless you lied. 

I think of reconciliation as like picking a stock. Do you want to invest in this? Perhaps your stock is a volatile stock (a serial cheater), perhaps your stock had a good history, but then tanked (the MLC cheater), and perhaps your stock was a crappy stock, but then got a new infusion of capital and became a blue chip stock (a successful reconciliation). 

I am saying, of all that risk, the last scenario is the least likely. Not just in my experience, but in reading on infidelity boards for 7 years. I truly would like for everyone to have a blue chip stock story. I don't begrudge ANYONE who has a blue chip stock story.

But there is another side -- and that is you can lose your investment. You can give years and years to someone again, invest yourself deeply and they will not return that investment. If you've got years and money to throw around, okay, perhaps your loss won't be as great as someone who is totally bankrupted by that experience. 

My opinion (and it is a blog and a board and is expressed as such) is *not* that reconciliation is impossible. People do it. I do not believe the MAJORITY of them are happier for it (look at the comments on my site from people in R, whose spouses are NOT cheating on them, who struggle to stay).

My opinion is that it is a bad risk. A risk I would not make again. Whether that person is a serial cheater, or a one off -- they crossed a line. They BETRAYED you. They have the capability to do that. Perhaps the love you have experienced in life from parents or other loved ones, was tolerating intolerable things, of forgiving abuse or addiction. Of loving someone whole. Perhaps you have a deeply vested need to make it right -- and of course you truly love the cheating spouse. Perhaps reconciliation is something you can do the mental and emotional gymnastics to sustain forever (living with the Gorilla as someone pointed out).

There are many, many sites online of how to affair proof your marriage, save your marriage, or Jesus Thinks You Failed because you divorced sites. My site gives the message -- it is OKAY not to invest, to lay that burden down. 

And in my experience, better stocks exist. You can hold on to your stock. You can also sell.


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## B1

Badblood said:


> On a cautionary note, I am extremely skeptical of some of these rapid reconciliations, we are seeing on TAM, recently. Many of them have gone directly from D-day to the hysterical bonding period, with only minor stops along the way. It's always been my belief that if something is too good to be true, then it probably isn't. While I wish them well, I feel that the speedy approach to R ( while romantic and squishy) is usually faulty and "then comes the deluge".


I can agree with you to a point, but you also don't know how hard some of these couples are working at R. Some people are really working harder than others, some people are in a constant state of working on R...I think me and EI are one of those.

Some people are better at handleing certain issues, some are better at forgiving, some are better at letting things go, some are better at understanding why...

You all read our posts and they may seem squishy sometimes, but you don't know that I had a melt down last night and got pretty angry, EI and me talked through it...at this point I am still a little upset BUT we are working on it, we are communicating, I just sent an email and we will do this on and off all day. Then we will talk at home...we are constantly working on this R...no breaks..it's that important to me and her.

I HAVE been afraid that it was going to fast BB, but there isn't a template or guide to follow here, we are moving at our own pace, it may be a bit fast but I think we are doing it right, we are both in MC and IC and we talk and talk and talk. Our counselor thinks we are a miracle and that we are doing great, he would tell us if he was concerned about something, Kind of like you are telling us now, you are concerned. All I can say is we are moving forward, how fast that is just depends, I think on the couple and how much work they are putting into R.


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## iheartlife

CL--there is no denying what you've said. Not sure how long you've been on this particular forum, but this is not the forum for those who want to blindly go into the reconciliation night, skipping through the daisies. People who post here are going to get called on what they post--for example, claim your spouse "only" had an emotional affair at your peril. (And, by the way, we really need to puncture the myth that a PA is worse than an EA. It's like saying I'd rather be slowly boiled in oil than slowly fried in a pan.)

I did see your blog post about the spectrum of cheaters, but I still maintain that from what I'm reading on your blog, you believe that a plan vanilla, ordinary cheater is just a serial cheater who hasn't had a chance to reveal their true nature, and that they are just as much a risk (because of their psychological damage) as a verified serial cheater. Isn't that the essence of what you've just said?


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## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> I can agree with you to a point, but you also don't know how hard some of these couples are working at R. Some people are really working harder than others, some people are in a constant state of working on R...I think me and EI are one of those.
> 
> Some people are better at handleing certain issues, some are better at forgiving, some are better at letting things go, some are better at understanding why...
> 
> You all read our posts and they may seem squishy sometimes, but you don't know that I had a melt down last night and got pretty angry, EI and me talked through it...at this point I am still a little upset BUT we are working on it, we are communicating, I just sent an email and we will do this on and off all day. Then we will talk at home...we are constantly working on this R...no breaks..it's that important to me and her.
> 
> I HAVE been afraid that it was going to fast BB, but there isn't a template or guide to follow here, we are moving at our own pace, it may be a bit fast but I think we are doing it right, we are both in MC and IC and we talk and talk and talk. Our counselor thinks we are a miracle and that we are doing great, he would tell us if he was concerned about something, Kind of like you are telling us now, you are concerned. All I can say is we are moving forward, how fast that is just depends, I think on the couple and how much work they are putting into R.


I couldn't have said this any better. As a matter of fact B1, it pretty much mirrors the stuff Regret and I have been doing. I haven't seen a lot of "rapid reconciliations" on TAM lately, but I guess we would be lumped into that mix. That's okay. I know Regret and I had Dday back in March. I didn't join here til July. There was quite a bit of time between Regret's first post back in like April and now. I read her first thread last night. It was pretty brutal.

Like you and EI, Regret and I discuss this every single day. Literally. Not a day goes by that we don't talk about the affair and the aftermath OR what we are each doing to get our marriage to work. Sometimes, what might seem like rug sweeping on the CRT (showing my age here), doesn't show a surface scratch of the work done offline.


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## SomedayDig

iJordan said:


> Naysayer has connotations of pessimism; I don't think that is accurate description of my position. Realist perhaps? Part of me envies those of you who can fathom a post-affair supramarriage, but I'm not convinced that it is an honest belief.


I just wanted to say that my comment wasn't directed to you at all iJ. I apologize if it came off that way. Honestly, it was more directed at chumlady's post in that reconciliation is a unicorn.


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## Almostrecovered

chumplady said:


> My opinion is that it is a bad risk. A risk I would not make again. Whether that person is a serial cheater, or a one off -- they crossed a line. They BETRAYED you. They have the capability to do that.



I truly understand this argument and why it applies to you and many others. Understanding that D and starting over at any age or situation is a viable and very positive action is not something I disagree with in the slightest.


What I have issue with is that you call those of us who have successful R "unicorns" that you haven't seen yet. That we do mental gymnastics for forever and a day, and we must have amnesia in order to survive and thrive in a happy marriage.

And yet I stand here before you as do others here as well saying that isn't the truth and we cite ourselves as examples of that. But I suspect you will still make insights into our psyche and how we must be Ghandi types who have the willpower to blindly love or accept others because we don't fit that mold of what you have determined to be the only course of action. 


I don't claim to understand everyone's motives and why they do things, even my own actions and motivations are things that I call into question. But overall I think I know myself best, and I know I am happy, have a better marriage in most aspects post-infidelity and I don't regret my choice. While it's true that I don't know what the future holds, I made an assessment that my risk vs reward ratio was indeed a risk worth taking. So far it's worked out pretty good for me.


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## SomedayDig

Almostrecovered said:


> What I have issue with is that you call those of us who have successful R "unicorns" that you haven't seen yet. That we do mental gymnastics for forever and a day, and we must have amnesia in order to survive and thrive in a happy marriage.
> 
> *Regret and I certainly aren't doing the amnesia thing. She "forgot" some things, yes...but this stuff is in our faces daily. There's no amnesia going on with us, that's for sure.*
> 
> And yet I stand here before you as do others here as well saying that isn't the truth and we cite ourselves as examples of that. But I suspect you will still make insights into our psyche and how we must be Ghandi types who have the willpower to blindly love or accept others because we don't fit that mold of what you have determined to be the only course of action.
> 
> *Yeah, I'm definitely NOT the Ghandi type. First because I don't turn the other cheek and second because I love to eat!  I think when people begin to generalize about everyone based on their experience alone, then simply their bias is as obvious as that horrible wallpaper in most 70's and 80's kitchens.*
> 
> I don't claim to understand everyone's motives and why they do things, even my own actions and motivations are things that I call into question. But overall I think I know myself best, and I know I am happy, have a better marriage in most aspects post-infidelity and I don't regret my choice. While it's true that I don't know what the future holds, I made an assessment that my risk vs reward ratio was indeed a risk worth taking. So far it's worked out pretty good for me.


This last statement is something I totally relate to. Oh, if people only knew _half_ of what I've endured, conquered and made poor decisions about, then maybe they might see a tiny bit into the fact that for me, reconciliation _isn't_ that far of a stretch. We don't know what the future holds. Why would we want to anyways? Isn't that the point? If life was meant to be so f'ng safe, it certainly wouldn't seem worth it to me.


----------



## iheartlife

SomedayDig said:


> This last statement is something I totally relate to. Oh, if people only knew _half_ of what I've endured, conquered and made poor decisions about, then maybe they might see a tiny bit into the fact that for me, reconciliation _isn't_ that far of a stretch. We don't know what the future holds. Why would we want to anyways? Isn't that the point? If life was meant to be so f'ng safe, it certainly wouldn't seem worth it to me.


And therein lies the irony, right? Reconciliation with blinders on seems like the safest thing to do, easier than divorce. Reconciliation with full knowledge and understanding of how infidelity functions, including all the lying and cake-eating, that is a choice I would _never_ try to make for another person. It is a leap of faith. But life is ALL ABOUT leaps of faith--it's just as much of one when you first commit to a new relationship, as it is in the case of reconciliation with a cheater.

Here is another element I often see in reconciliations: a recognition by the loyal spouse that they themselves are far from perfect human beings / spouses. That they also can stretch and grow and be better people. NOT that their imperfections justified any cheating, ever. But that together the two people can take things to a different level.

I can see that there are many cases where the betrayed spouse truly feels they were putting every bit of effort into making the marriage work that they could, just prior to discovering the affair. For these people, reconciling is often not something they want. That's because they can't see how there is anything within their own control that they could change or improve. I really, really feel for these individuals, because if I were in their situation I'm sure I'd feel the same. But I'm not, and so I don't


----------



## Harken Banks

iheartlife said:


> Here is another element I often see in reconciliations: a recognition by the loyal spouse that they themselves are far from perfect human beings / spouses.


If that's a necessary ingredient, AllMessedUp and I are screwed.


----------



## SomedayDig

iheartlife said:


> Here is another element I often see in reconciliations: a recognition by the loyal spouse that they themselves are *far from perfect human beings / spouses*. That they also can stretch and grow and be better people. NOT that their imperfections justified any cheating, ever. But that together the two people can take things to a different level.


I fart waaayyy too much. I recognize I am far from perfect!


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## Hope1964

Vegemite said:


> And also, How do you truly love someone who has chosen to go and have sex with someone else?


Same way you love someone who had sex with someone else before you knew them. If the cheater is truly remorseful, they are not the same person they were when they cheated. The marriage isn't the same marriage either. They cheated, it's in the past, and when both partners are able to leave it in the last and move past it, anything's possible.



chumplady said:


> Somehow people think THAT is the unicorn, THAT is the impossibility -- that there is a good person, a good partner for you out there when you're in your 40s (or any age). To which I say -- bullish*t.
> 
> Good people exist. Every person who has the heart to try to forgive a cheater is a good, good person. And a person, IMO, who would be better served by moving on and finding another person just like them.
> 
> The devil you don't know may be a hell of a lot better than the devil you do know. And probably is by virtue of the fact that that devil hasn't cheated on you.


This all assumes that you need someone else in your life. I don't. I would be perfectly happy all by myself. I choose to be with my husband because I just want to be with him. Not because I'm afraid there's no one else out there for me.



iheartlife said:


> Here is another element I often see in reconciliations: a recognition by the loyal spouse that they themselves are far from perfect human beings / spouses. That they also can stretch and grow and be better people. NOT that their imperfections justified any cheating, ever. But that together the two people can take things to a different level.


OMG this is so true.

People who think reconciliation is always a sham and impossible just don't have the same mindset as those who know it IS possible.

Are the majority of BS's deluding themselves? Who knows. Maybe, maybe not. Some obviously are. They're kind of easy to spot.

Could I find out tomorrow that my husband is still acting out? Sure I could. So could anyone - ANYONE - on TAM, whether they experienced cheating before or not. Do I spend my life worrying about it? Nope. I know and he knows exactly what will happen if I do, so that's that. I choose to get on with my life, the life I WANT, not the life I have settled for.


----------



## Badblood

iheartlife said:


> And therein lies the irony, right? Reconciliation with blinders on seems like the safest thing to do, easier than divorce. Reconciliation with full knowledge and understanding of how infidelity functions, including all the lying and cake-eating, that is a choice I would _never_ try to make for another person. It is a leap of faith. But life is ALL ABOUT leaps of faith--it's just as much of one when you first commit to a new relationship, as it is in the case of reconciliation with a cheater.
> 
> Here is another element I often see in reconciliations: a recognition by the loyal spouse that they themselves are far from perfect human beings / spouses. That they also can stretch and grow and be better people. NOT that their imperfections justified any cheating, ever. But that together the two people can take things to a different level.
> 
> I can see that there are many cases where the betrayed spouse truly feels they were putting every bit of effort into making the marriage work that they could, just prior to discovering the affair. For these people, reconciling is often not something they want. That's because they can't see how there is anything within their own control that they could change or improve. I really, really feel for these individuals, because if I were in their situation I'm sure I'd feel the same. But I'm not, and so I don't


Well, I tried that "leap of faith ", thing and it didn't turn out so good , did it?


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## SomedayDig

As I said...it sucks when it doesn't work for some, but to constantly project that out to the world isn't helpful. But that's probably just me being a unicorn.


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## Badblood

Hope1964 said:


> Same way you love someone who had sex with someone else before you knew them. If the cheater is truly remorseful, they are not the same person they were when they cheated. The marriage isn't the same marriage either. They cheated, it's in the past, and when both partners are able to leave it in the last and move past it, anything's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> This all assumes that you need someone else in your life. I don't. I would be perfectly happy all by myself. I choose to be with my husband because I just want to be with him. Not because I'm afraid there's no one else out there for me.
> 
> 
> 
> OMG this is so true.
> 
> People who think reconciliation is always a sham and impossible just don't have the same mindset as those who know it IS possible.
> 
> Are the majority of BS's deluding themselves? Who knows. Maybe, maybe not. Some obviously are. They're kind of easy to spot.
> 
> Could I find out tomorrow that my husband is still acting out? Sure I could. So could anyone - ANYONE - on TAM, whether they experienced cheating before or not. Do I spend my life worrying about it? Nope. I know and he knows exactly what will happen if I do, so that's that. I choose to get on with my life, the life I WANT, not the life I have settled for.


I agree with most of your post, Hope, except the very first statement. Affair sex is most emphatically NOT the same as pre-marital sex, but other than that, a pretty good post.:smthumbup:


----------



## Hope1964

Badblood said:


> I agree with most of your post, Hope, except the very first statement. Affair sex is most emphatically NOT the same as pre-marital sex, but other than that, a pretty good post.:smthumbup:


No, you're right, it isn't, and I didn't mean to imply it is. The parallel I was trying to draw was that the person who cheated is not the same person you're having sex with afterwards, if they're truly remorseful. Just like the person you have sex with when you're been married isn't the same person who had sex with the people they had sex with before they met you. So the parallel is supposed to be about the person, not the sex.


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> I can agree with you to a point, but you also don't know how hard some of these couples are working at R. Some people are really working harder than others, some people are in a constant state of working on R...I think me and EI are one of those.
> 
> Some people are better at handleing certain issues, some are better at forgiving, some are better at letting things go, some are better at understanding why...
> 
> You all read our posts and they may seem squishy sometimes, but you don't know that I had a melt down last night and got pretty angry, EI and me talked through it...at this point I am still a little upset BUT we are working on it, we are communicating, I just sent an email and we will do this on and off all day. Then we will talk at home...we are constantly working on this R...no breaks..it's that important to me and her.
> 
> I HAVE been afraid that it was going to fast BB, but there isn't a template or guide to follow here, we are moving at our own pace, it may be a bit fast but I think we are doing it right, we are both in MC and IC and we talk and talk and talk. Our counselor thinks we are a miracle and that we are doing great, he would tell us if he was concerned about something, Kind of like you are telling us now, you are concerned. All I can say is we are moving forward, how fast that is just depends, I think on the couple and how much work they are putting into R.


B1, You understand that my posts and my story were meant as I said, to be cautionary notes. They were not directed at any specific couple, but to ALL couples trying to R. What I said in another thread holds true in this one as well. Patience, honesty and thoroughness will get you farther, faster, than high-speed, dramatic, desperation. What is the effing, hurry? Take your time, and work at your own pace. I assume that IF both parties are committed to R, then nobody is going anywhere, right? Anytime somebody questions R and it's performance, posters will immediately leap to the defense, like rabid poodles. Take it easy, take it slow, and do it right.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> On a cautionary note, I am extremely skeptical of some of these rapid reconciliations, we are seeing on TAM, recently. Many of them have gone directly from D-day to the hysterical bonding period, with only minor stops along the way. It's always been my belief that if something is too good to be true, then it probably isn't. While I wish them well, I feel that the speedy approach to R ( while romantic and squishy) is usually faulty and "then comes the deluge".





Badblood said:


> Yes, EI, it is a great story, but there is a cautionary note, too , that all of you guys trying to R should note. Jean and Ron's first marriage lasted 4 years, they were divorced for 3 more years, THEN Ron courted her for another year, before they married again. It took them 8 years to get it right......think about it.


I had a huge comment (do I ever have any other kind) typed out responding to this and I hadn't logged in so I "lost" the dang thing. 

B1 and I are not taking any aspect of our R lightly. We go to IC and MC every week and we talk for hours every day. We have virtually done nothing except work on our relationship since D-Day. Neither of us are taking anything for granted. But, I won't apologize for the "hysterical bonding." The physical intimacy was seriously lacking in our relationship waaaay Pre-A and it is an important part of our "bonding" now. But, it is only a part of our marriage and relationship..... a very good part, though!


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> But, I won't apologize for the "hysterical bonding."


Meeeee neither!!! LOL


sorry. sue me.


----------



## Almostrecovered

SomedayDig said:


> Meeeee neither!!! LOL
> 
> 
> sorry. sue me.


I could only assume if I did, it would have to be "small" claims court






(yeah that's right I did a "you have a small penis" joke)


----------



## Badblood

Look at it this way. We are all on TAM because our marriages were total ****-ups. Most of us got married in the throes of love and passion. So.....since that didn't work so good,perhaps we should all try something different, maybe? Self-improvement, setting realistic personal boundaries, and human understanding (for ourselves as well as others), are , at least, as important as even the decision to R or D. Leaps of faith, hope, and passion are all well and good, but without self-knowledge, boundaries, and understanding, they are simply foolish patronizing cliches'.


----------



## SomedayDig

Almostrecovered said:


> I could only assume if I did, it would have to be "small" claims court
> 
> 
> 
> (yeah that's right I did a "you have a small penis" joke)


:wtf::rofl:


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## Almostrecovered

good old philosphy- lots of talk and concluding with the same question


----------



## EI

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Some general observations:
> 
> Positive factors that drive a Reconciliation are fewer: regaining the WS’s love and respect,* reliving a happy past,* maintaining the family unit and children’s lives intact, retaining existent financial stature… …*many of these are again about preventing negative fallouts than gaining positives.*



I am more concerned about looking forward to a happier future. 



> The Sexual Aspect:
> 
> Reconciliation dictates a rather unspontaneous ‘re-perceptionizing’ of the relationship (until then, a zebra was a white horse with black stripes, now it’s a black horse with white stripes).
> A re-sexing of a marriage. And a re-igniting of romance through conscious effort (‘act romantic, and eventually you’ll feel romantic’ – much on the lines of ‘act happy, and you will feel happy’).
> 
> *Most of the greatness of these experiences (romance, sex, etc) lie in spontaneity.* Post Reconciliation, a conscious effort is made in all these areas, which makes for quintessentially diminished experiences (while there could be more sex – sexual reclaiming, hyperbonding, purposeful sex for intimacy enhancement, etc – and more 'aware' sex - past Reconciliation, it IS a different sex than pre).
> 
> *More sex is NOT always better sex.*


Or, sometimes, as the marriage begins to improve with a successful R, the sex is just freakin' good! Our post-A sex is definitely NOT quintessentially diminished.... because we weren't having any Pre-A sex to speak of. No psycho-babble, mumbo-jumbo analyzing necessary. That wasn't a "poke" to you, Z, it was to Dig! 'Cuz I'm pretty sure that he was making fun of my flowery and poetic musings to B1 earlier and referring to them as psycho-babble, mumbo-jumbo, or something like that! If that wasn't directed towards me, my apologies! LOL


----------



## Gabriel

Badblood said:


> On a cautionary note, I am extremely skeptical of some of these rapid reconciliations, we are seeing on TAM, recently. Many of them have gone directly from D-day to the hysterical bonding period, with only minor stops along the way. It's always been my belief that if something is too good to be true, then it probably isn't. While I wish them well, I feel that the speedy approach to R ( while romantic and squishy) is usually faulty and "then comes the deluge".


I get that, but we can't control how our emotions go, nor can we control the hysterical bonding feelings. They come when they come.

I know I went to forgiveness and hysterical bonding very quickly, and 1-2 months in, we were great. But it circled back, big time, SEVERAL times over the next year. Total roller coaster. So for those that dive into heavy R right away, I say, okay, that's fine, but be ready for the inevitable crashes ahead.


----------



## Harken Banks

Gabriel said:


> but be ready for the inevitable crashes ahead.


If there is nothing else I have learned


----------



## Gabriel

chumplady said:


> I try to explain it pretty well on my chumplady blog, but no, I don't think ALL cheaters are serial cheaters. (I have a post entitled A Spectrum of Cheaters.) I think there are exit affairs, ONS, and I agree that serial cheaters are at the end of a spectrum.
> 
> I do think many (but yes, not all -- but a good number of) cheaters cop to lesser offenses and will admit to only what you've got on them. If you only have evidence of an EA, they'll say it was an EA until evidence surfaces of a PA. If they say it was a ONS, you find out it was more than once. If it was just kissing, no, it was sex. Etc.
> 
> My point is -- it is ALL RISK. *You don't know*, and unless you want a marriage of being the marriage police or have a time travel machine, you probably aren't ever going to know. Cheaters lie. You cannot cheat unless you lied.
> 
> I think of reconciliation as like picking a stock. Do you want to invest in this? Perhaps your stock is a volatile stock (a serial cheater), perhaps your stock had a good history, but then tanked (the MLC cheater), and perhaps your stock was a crappy stock, but then got a new infusion of capital and became a blue chip stock (a successful reconciliation).
> 
> I am saying, of all that risk, the last scenario is the least likely. Not just in my experience, but in reading on infidelity boards for 7 years. I truly would like for everyone to have a blue chip stock story. I don't begrudge ANYONE who has a blue chip stock story.
> 
> But there is another side -- and that is you can lose your investment. You can give years and years to someone again, invest yourself deeply and they will not return that investment. If you've got years and money to throw around, okay, perhaps your loss won't be as great as someone who is totally bankrupted by that experience.
> 
> My opinion (and it is a blog and a board and is expressed as such) is *not* that reconciliation is impossible. People do it. I do not believe the MAJORITY of them are happier for it (look at the comments on my site from people in R, whose spouses are NOT cheating on them, who struggle to stay).
> 
> My opinion is that it is a bad risk. A risk I would not make again. Whether that person is a serial cheater, or a one off -- they crossed a line. They BETRAYED you. They have the capability to do that. Perhaps the love you have experienced in life from parents or other loved ones, was tolerating intolerable things, of forgiving abuse or addiction. Of loving someone whole. Perhaps you have a deeply vested need to make it right -- and of course you truly love the cheating spouse. Perhaps reconciliation is something you can do the mental and emotional gymnastics to sustain forever (living with the Gorilla as someone pointed out).
> 
> There are many, many sites online of how to affair proof your marriage, save your marriage, or Jesus Thinks You Failed because you divorced sites. My site gives the message -- it is OKAY not to invest, to lay that burden down.
> 
> And in my experience, better stocks exist. You can hold on to your stock. You can also sell.


In isolation, I like the stock analogy. However, stocks don't give you any enjoyment while you hold onto them, unless they pay you dividends. And the big hole in this analogy exists in the dividend congruency. 

See, you can get dividends from a stock for a long time, but when you sell the stock at a loss, or lose it entirely, the dividends really weren't big enough to offset the bad investment.

In a marriage (or any relationship of love), the dividends are HUGE, your time spent is not wasted, IMHO, even if you lose the investment. In my ongoing reconciliation, I get to enjoy my time with my wife. A lot. And if it ends up later that she has another EA, or whatever, I will exit the investment, but you know what? While I had it, it was good, and those years will be happy ones. This does not apply to a stock investment.


----------



## chumplady

*carpenoctem*, you make some interesting points.



> desperation – for the BS – the anxiety that it could happen again if he/she doesn’t step up AND STAY UP


And there's the rub for me. Betrayal doesn't bring out my best self. I don't think it is fair to expect a betrayed spouse to "step up" their game and "stay up" to, as I term it, win the humiliating dance of Pick Me.

I'm not saying BS are perfect people and never need to address their issues, it's just that those issues are eclipsed by the trauma of infidelity. And the BS isn't the one who put a bullet through the thing.

I dislike the notion that you have to skip to the cheater's tune to win the awesome prize of their continued commitment to you.

They made a commitment. And broke that commitment. The heavier lifting, IMO, should be on the cheater to fix what they destroyed. And not spread the "we're all at fault here" fairy dust around.


----------



## EI

Gabriel said:


> I get that, but we can't control how our emotions go, nor can we control the hysterical bonding feelings. They come when they come.
> 
> I know I went to forgiveness and hysterical bonding very quickly, and 1-2 months in, we were great. But it circled back, big time, SEVERAL times over the next year. Total roller coaster. *So for those that dive into heavy R right away, I say, okay, that's fine, but be ready for the inevitable crashes ahead*.



I am learning, and accepting the fact, that we often have our greatest highs and lowest lows on the same days. I think when we have the really good moments, then the hope for a positive outcome in the relationship becomes higher for the CS. Then, out of "no freakin' where" some "trigger" will present itself to one of us,.... maybe a location, a song, something I might say without thinking about it, it could be anything and then the good day that we were having is shot to He!!. I used to panic and think that every set back was going back to square one. B1 and I are, both, still on a learning curve. Now, I realize that the daily advances and setbacks are a part of our "new normal" and, likely, will be for the foreseeable future. I am learning, hopefully, how to respond to them better... without getting defensive and understanding what B1 really needs from me in those moments and I do my best to help him/us through it. Again, the CS gets scared, insecure, hurt and triggered, too! But, I think for myself, and probably other former cheating spouses, we don't often feel that we are "allowed" to express our fears.


----------



## carpenoctem

Empty Inside said:


> I am more concerned about looking forward to a happier future.
> 
> 
> 
> Or, sometimes, as the marriage begins to improve with a successful R, the sex is just freakin' good! Our post-A sex is definitely NOT quintessentially diminished.... because we weren't having any Pre-A sex to speak of. No psycho-babble, mumbo-jumbo analyzing necessary. That wasn't a "poke" to you, Z, it was to Dig! 'Cuz I'm pretty sure that he was making fun of my flowery and poetic musings to B1 earlier and referring to them as psycho-babble, mumbo-jumbo, or something like that! If that wasn't directed towards me, my apologies! LOL



oh no, lady.
i was not responding to any post. please do not misunderstand me.
in fact, i have to go back and read which post you were referring to.
thank you for asking, but.
you have a good day today.


----------



## carpenoctem

Empty Inside said:


> I am more concerned about looking forward to a happier future.
> 
> 
> 
> Or, sometimes, as the marriage begins to improve with a successful R, the sex is just freakin' good! Our post-A sex is definitely NOT quintessentially diminished.... because we weren't having any Pre-A sex to speak of. No psycho-babble, mumbo-jumbo analyzing necessary. That wasn't a "poke" to you, Z, it was to Dig! 'Cuz I'm pretty sure that he was making fun of my flowery and poetic musings to B1 earlier and referring to them as psycho-babble, mumbo-jumbo, or something like that! If that wasn't directed towards me, my apologies! LOL


I actually missed out this Post Script in that post:

P.S.: the above precludes abusive / sexless / highly dysfunctional marriages.


----------



## EI

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> P.S.: the above precludes abusive / sexless / highly dysfunctional marriages.


There was actually more than sex missing from our marriage. Our entire marriage was AWOL (for the last several years.) True story!


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> I am learning, and accepting the fact, that we often have our greatest highs and lowest lows on the same days. I think when we have the really good moments, then the hope for a positive outcome in the relationship becomes higher for the CS. Then, out of "no freakin' where" some "trigger" will present itself to one of us,.... maybe a location, a song, something I might say without thinking about it, it could be anything and then the good day that we were having is shot to He!!. I used to panic and think that every set back was going back to square one. B1 and I are, both, still on a learning curve. Now, I realize that the daily advances and setbacks are a part of our "new normal" and, likely, will be for the foreseeable future. I am learning, hopefully, how to respond to them better... without getting defensive and understanding what B1 really needs from me in those moments and I do my best to help him/us through it. Again, the CS gets scared, insecure, hurt and triggered, too! But, I think for myself, and probably other former cheating spouses, we don't often feel that we are "allowed" to express our fears.


EI, I don't think it's a matter of not being "allowed ", to express your fears, but a matter of timing. You cheated, and until B1's immediate fears are put to rest, yours will ,and should, take a back seat. This is only fair. Remember, selfishness got you into this soup, selflessness will get you out again. Be patient, The new B1 is , if anything, a good listener, you'll get your turn to spout.


----------



## warlock07

Hope1964 said:


> No, you're right, it isn't, and I didn't mean to imply it is. *The parallel I was trying to draw was that the person who cheated is not the same person you're having sex with afterwards, if they're truly remorseful.* Just like the person you have sex with when you're been married isn't the same person who had sex with the people they had sex with before they met you. So the parallel is supposed to be about the person, not the sex.


Nope, it still the same person, though the person might have changed into someone better. While I understand what you mean, I don't like the argument that they are not the same person. That to me is evading responsibility. I like AR's approach to the whole thing. You still have to keep in mind that this person is capable of doing this.


----------



## warlock07

Also, awesome thread guys.


----------



## Badblood

So how about this? Reconciliation is about (the after infidelity) self-improvement of BOTH the BS and the WS, and it's application to a renewed partnership.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> EI, I don't think it's a matter of not being "allowed ", to express your fears, but a matter of timing. You cheated, and until B1's immediate fears are put to rest, yours will ,and should, take a back seat. This is only fair. Remember, selfishness got you into this soup, selflessness will get you out again. Be patient, The new B1 is , if anything, a good listener, you'll get your turn to spout.



I, respectfully, disagree with you BB! We, both, deal with one anothers hurts, fears and insecurities as they come along. We are in "this" together. I wasn't a selfish person, at heart, I was a very lonely and hurting person pre-A. B1 and I are taking a long, hard, introspective look into ourselves, looking back to when and how our marriage broke down. We are coming to terms with what each of us did and did not do that caused our marriage to break apart at the seams. This R can not be about who hurt who the most..... but how can we each help one another heal, how can we each contribute to a more positive, healthy, happy future together. Now, I realize that his pain is ACUTE and NOW, so I am doing all of the heavy lifting that I can. But, there are days when I walk into the bedroom and ask B1 to sit in the rocking chair and to hold me, just let me cry, and he does. And, that is just one of the many reasons that I love him so very much. And, no, I'm not crying about the OM.... before you even think about going there. I'm jus' sayin'......


----------



## iJordan

OK, a few pages have accumulated since yesterday. I'll try and not make this a novella...

I think I have to preface this by saying I am not arguing that reconciliation doesn't happen.

My father had a heart attack four years ago. Prior to his heart attack, he smoked, didn't exercise, was too heavy for his height and had poor dietary habits; however, his heart was still fully functional. Now, he doesn't smoke, his lungs are in much better condition; he works out 4 times per week, climbs mountains and has recomposed his body with the aid of improved dietary habits. But, despite the improvements in other areas, his heart remains irreversibly damaged. That, in cardiac terms, is my take on post-affair marriage.



iheartlife said:


> It's not as if the marriage was "perfect" and now it's not (i.e., the cracked foundation analogy). It was never perfect, because we are all human. It's just different, and in my view, I like these differences more than the ones that existed before.


The marriage may not have been perfect, but fidelity was not broken. Communication can be improved, trust can be built, intimacy can be achieved and respect can be earned, but fidelity? Once that is broken, nothing fully puts it together again.

If fidelity is the foundation to your relationship, then that foundation is still cracked; it's just that you have managed to adequately support it with improvements in other areas. This is simply a rewording of my previous statement:



> Reconciliation [. . .] is just the attempt to rebuild your broken marriage in the hope that it will be enough.





betrayed1 said:


> Every aspect of our marriage right now is better than before the affair. This isn't dellusional it's a fact.


If fidelity is a fist principle in your relationship, then it is conceptually impossible to argue that _every aspect_ is better—which is my main theme: the improvements in other areas have simply compensated very well. 

There is certainly nothing wrong with that; all that matters is you're happy. I just think that asserting 'every' aspect as being better is time bomb.

---

As for the 'new marriage' and 'different person now than when they were cheating' line of reasoning, I posted the following in response to a specific question re. divorce:




iJordan said:


> Divorce sends a very strong message that you will not tolerate cheating. It allows the betrayed spouse to regain some self-respect and confidence, if not facilitating respect from the cheating spouse, and the freedom to choose a new life with a new partner or a new life with their old parter.
> 
> It further serves as the literal counterpart to the symbolic death of marriage and as a very tangible consequence for the cheating spouse. Many people throw around an adage to the affect of: _'your old marriage is dead. But, you can start a new one'_ — implying that you can rebuild from such a betrayal, whilst remaining in the marriage. This is analogous to someone trashing your Aston Martin, but telling you: _'don't worry; you can get a new car by rebuilding the now-trashed pieces of your old car...'_ *It's the same car, with the same remnants of past damage.*
> 
> That makes less sense to me than divorce.


----------



## Gabriel

Some say only the WS has to work at R. I do think the WS has to do more work than the BS, but both have a lot to do.

My fWW has explained to me that the whole thing hurt her very much also, as she has to live with the fact that 1) she broke a vow, 2) caused me so much pain, 3) lost one of her best friends (the guy that turned into the OM after 20 platonic years).

When things bring her back to that time, it's hard for her too - it took me awhile to realize that. But the WS doesn't understand the extent of the pain the BS has gone through. It's impossible for them to do so unless they've been through it. 

My W and the OM have a few mutual Facebook friends, and they will occasionally both comment or like something on the same thread, etc. There is only 1 person on FB that is friends with all three of us. One time he "liked" a comment of my W's on this friend's wall and I went RIGHT THERE again, to the panic and pain. It's always close to the surface, and that's the hardest part of all.


----------



## Racer

chumplady said:


> And there's the rub for me. Betrayal doesn't bring out my best self. I don't think it is fair to expect a betrayed spouse to "step up" their game and "stay up" to, as I term it, win the humiliating dance of Pick Me..


I agree, however will note it is a very fine line and hard to distinguish ‘stepping up to their expectations’ with working on yourself if you were compatible in the first place. I know an overwhelming part of my R was me asking myself “How the hell did I end up here?” Sexless marriage, disrespected, low self-esteem, co-dependancy, passive-aggressive traits, etc. So, I started working on me, FOR ME to change my lot in life; I hated where I had allowed myself to end up. So there is the big difference. My thinking was: Whether or not this marriage works, being a better man and clearing out my own issues will serve me well in any new relationship. And, this new me isn’t exactly ‘nicer, kinder, etc.’... It is however authentic. No longer allowing myself to fit into a prescribed mold of ‘a good husband’. I (or she?) shattered those ideologies and now I’m just me traveling my own path.

There is a bad aspect though of doing that work and staying in the marriage. My wife gets to reap the benefits of these changes. Does she deserve to? Nope. So, I decided I like the new me mostly (still working) and if she gets anything ‘better’ its not because I’m trying to impress her or get any response: She just gets ‘lucky’ that the direction I want for myself happens to align with hers. Not much I can do about that even if I don’t believe she should get a benefit from it. The fact that she is responding in a way I like is just icing to these changes. From the outside, it may well look like I’m trying to win her back by making myself a more attractive prospect... The real fact is because I’m working on me for me, I am just more attractive (and not just specifically to her and her ideas of ‘husband material’).

Oh, and for the record, I am reconciling with a (former) unremorseful wayward. I didn’t exactly have much choice as ‘working on the marriage’ wasn’t on the table. I had no support from her, just futile attempts to rip me down to her level. “Best” has connotations of “Nice, good, pleasant..” I wasn’t. Once I got strong enough, I ripped her apart in very unpleasant ways to plant those same seeds of “How did I end up here and being ‘this’?”


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> I, respectfully, disagree with you BB! We, both, deal with one anothers hurts, fears and insecurities as they come along. We are in "this" together. I wasn't a selfish person, at heart, I was a very lonely and hurting person pre-A. B1 and I are taking a long, hard, introspective look into ourselves, looking back to when and how our marriage broke down. We are coming to terms with what each of us did and did not do that caused our marriage to break apart at the seams. This R can not be about who hurt who the most..... but how can we each help one another heal, how can we each contribute to a more positive, healthy, happy future together. Now, I realize that his pain is ACUTE and NOW, so I am doing all of the heavy lifting that I can. But, there are days when I walk into the bedroom and ask B1 to sit in the rocking chair and to hold me, just let me cry, and he does. And, that is just one of the many reasons that I love him so very much. And, no, I'm not crying about the OM.... before you even think about going there. I'm jus' sayin'......


I believe you EI, when you say that normally you aren't a selfish person, but the fact remains that you DID act selfishly by having the affair. Other than that your post and mine seem to agree. The BS BECAUSE he is the one whose pain is more immediate, deserves priority.


----------



## CantSitStill

Obviously the BS' pain is way worse and immediate but if a WS holds back their feelings well then it's just gonna land up a bad relationship all over again..both need to let eachother know when something is bothering them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

iJordan said:


> OK, a few pages have accumulated since yesterday. I'll try and not make this a novella...
> 
> I think I have to preface this by saying I am not arguing that reconciliation doesn't happen.
> 
> My father had a heart attack four years ago. Prior to his heart attack, he smoked, didn't exercise, was too heavy for his height and had poor dietary habits; however, his heart was still fully functional. Now, he doesn't smoke, his lungs are in much better condition; he works out 4 times per week, climbs mountains and has recomposed his body with the aid of improved dietary habits. But, despite the improvements in other areas, his heart remains irreversibly damaged. That, in cardiac terms, is my take on post-affair marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> The marriage may not have been perfect, but fidelity was not broken. Communication can be improved, trust can be built, intimacy can be achieved and respect can be earned, but fidelity? Once that is broken, nothing fully puts it together again.
> 
> If fidelity is the foundation to your relationship, then that foundation is still cracked; it's just that you have managed to adequately support it with improvements in other areas. This is simply a rewording of my previous statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If fidelity is a fist principle in your relationship, then it is conceptually impossible to argue that _every aspect_ is better—which is my main theme: the improvements in other areas have simply compensated very well.
> 
> There is certainly nothing wrong with that; all that matters is you're happy. I just think that asserting 'every' aspect as being better is time bomb.
> 
> ---
> 
> As for the 'new marriage' and 'different person now than when they were cheating' line of reasoning, I posted the following in response to a specific question re. divorce:


I will say it again, our marriage now is better then it was before the affair. Who else would know this better than me? *I would not be in this marriage if it were worse, or the same*...I wouldn't be in it if it were just a little better because what we had pre-affair was a complete and utter train wreck. We already discussed divorce and told the kids, her wedding rings were off and we were sleeping in seperate rooms for over a year. She told me she wasn't in love anymore, she told me she would find passion elsewhere. There was No cuddeling, no sex, no holding hands or talking except for kid stuff and finances, I mean except for a piece of paper saying so we had no marriage. You could not get any worse. The foundation had been ripped up and thrown away.

Our MC has even said we had the biggest disconnect he had ever seen in a married couple, even he thought it was over between us. He claims we are a miracle that we are the first to get this far after such a disconnect he has ever seen. I could go on about it but fact is..our marriage right now far exceeds what it used to be. We both agreed that if it could not be better then we would go our seperate ways.


----------



## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> Obviously the BS' pain is way worse and immediate but if a WS holds back their feelings well then it's just gonna land up a bad relationship all over again..both need to let eachother know when something is bothering them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree up to a point. Both the BS and the WS are going to have their moments, no doubt, but you can't solve two separate issues at the same time, or you will end up neglecting both. One or the other is going to have to take precedence. Whichever is the most urgent needs to be dealt with first, and that usually is the BS's.


----------



## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> I will say it again, our marriage now is better then it was before the affair. Who else would know this better than me? *I would not be in this marriage if it were worse, or the same*...I wouldn't be in it if it were just a little better because what we had pre-affair was a complete and utter train wreck. We already discussed divorce and told the kids, her wedding rings were off and we were sleeping in seperate rooms for over a year. She told me she wasn't in love anymore, she told me she would find passion elsewhere. There was No cuddeling, no sex, no holding hands or talking except for kid stuff and finances, I mean except for a piece of paper saying so we had no marriage. You could not get any worse. The foundation had been ripped up and thrown away.
> 
> Our MC has even said we had the biggest disconnect he had ever seen in a married couple, even he thought it was over between us. He claims we are a miracle that we are the first to get this far after such a disconnect he has ever seen. I could go on about it but fact is..our marriage right now far exceeds what it used to be. We both agreed that if it could not be better then we would go our seperate ways.


Altho we always slept in the same bed and kept our rings on till the day I left the home to go to my sisters, our marriage was pretty much the same way. Our first counselor couldn't believe two people so different from eachother have made it this far. He proclaimed our marriage dead. He had total doubt that it would ever work with us and he was soo wrong. wrong wrong wrong. We love eachother and we support eachother in every way possible, we were just missing the key thing like: affection, appreciation, attention, acceptance...anyway now we are giving eachother all of those things
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

iJordan said:


> If fidelity is a fist principle in your relationship, then it is conceptually impossible to argue that _every aspect_ is better—which is my main theme: the improvements in other areas have simply compensated very well.
> 
> There is certainly nothing wrong with that; all that matters is you're happy. I just think that asserting 'every' aspect as being better is time bomb.





betrayed1 said:


> I will say it again, our marriage now is better then it was before the affair. Who else would know this better than me? *I would not be in this marriage if it were worse, or the same*...I wouldn't be in it if it were just a little better because what we had pre-affair was a complete and utter train wreck. We already discussed divorce and told the kids, her wedding rings were off and we were sleeping in seperate rooms for over a year. She told me she wasn't in love anymore, she told me she would find passion elsewhere. There was No cuddeling, no sex, no holding hands or talking except for kid stuff and finances, I mean except for a piece of paper saying so we had no marriage. You could not get any worse. The foundation had been ripped up and thrown away.
> 
> Our MC has even said we had the biggest disconnect he had ever seen in a married couple, even he thought it was over between us. He claims we are a miracle that we are the first to get this far after such a disconnect he has ever seen. I could go on about it but fact is..our marriage right now far exceeds what it used to be. We both agreed that if it could not be better then we would go our seperate ways.



Okay, this argument has become all about semantics.... about who can "define" the repercussions of infidelity and the foundation of marriage the most accurately. But, we are talking about human emotions, not bricks and mortar, not stocks, bonds or other investments and not a heart that has been damaged from a literal heart attack. You cannot compare apples and oranges and you, certainly, cannot compare the emotions involved in being human beings to any other tangible item. 

At one point B1 and I had a good marriage. There were certain things that were lacking, but who has a perfect marriage? We married very young, took on a great deal of responsibility, and had one crises after another thrown in our direction, most of which we had little control over. Last year, 31 years into our relationship, 28 years into our marriage, B1 was diagnosed and began treatment for low T. It is very likely that he had been suffering from this for many years and he may possibly have never had adequate levels up until the last several months. To say that when all of these factors (which we have discussed, repeatedly in B1's thread) came together in an "imperfect storm," affected our marriage, negatively, would be an understatement. After one too many deaths in the family, one too many health criseses, legal criseses, (too many to count and through no fault of our own, i.e., custody and eventual adoption of my niece and special needs nephew, being the victim of a hit and run accident, shady lawyers..... I could go on and on) with the added bonus of low T on top of it all.... our marriage imploded from within. B1 shut down and I had an affair. I was wrong. The time bomb that iJ referred to already went off... it was our marriage as we knew it prior to the affair. I don't care if we call it the old marriage, dead marriage, same marriage, former selves, new marriage, new and improved selves, reconciled, recommitted...... call it whatever you want.

We have been through the bowels of Hell and back. We lost what we had...... that's fine. It wasn't sustainable. But B1 and I have emerged..... stronger, wiser, healthier, more humble, more grateful, more aware, and more in love than we have ever been before. Reconciliation is probably a lot like sobriety..... it is a choice that you make every day. You can be sober for years and then have one drink and you are no longer sober. Today we choose reconciliation..... I don't care what anyone calls it, I just know that it is better than anything that we have ever experienced before..... not because of the hurt that we are, both, feeling, but in spite of it. But, we are armed with the knowledge of how valuable we are to one another. Everyone else is free to define their marriage, their reconciliation, their divorce..... however they choose. This one belongs to EI and B1 and we are in a better place. I would dare to say that our marriage is stronger and better than many who have not been shattered by infidelity. Who is to say that, perhaps, those marriages are not the ticking time bombs. There is such a thing as a False R(econciliation) but there are also many who live in F R(ealities) as well. They just don't know it. We know.


----------



## iJordan

betrayed1 said:


> I will say it again, our marriage now is better then it was before the affair. Who else would know this better than me? *I would not be in this marriage if it were worse, or the same*...I wouldn't be in it if it were just a little better because what we had pre-affair was a complete and utter train wreck. We already discussed divorce and told the kids, her wedding rings were off and we were sleeping in seperate rooms for over a year. She told me she wasn't in love anymore, she told me she would find passion elsewhere. There was No cuddeling, no sex, no holding hands or talking except for kid stuff and finances, I mean except for a piece of paper saying so we had no marriage. You could not get any worse. The foundation had been ripped up and thrown away.


That's great for the two of you, but it doesn't answer or refute my argument that it is impossible to argue *every aspect* is better. I'm not saying that your current marriage isn't actually better in most ways than your previous marriage; I'm saying that if you take your current marriage and remove the catalyst of your wife's affair, it would be a better marriage. I believe that putting on a 'shiny happy people' facade and failing to accept this is not conducive to longevity—hence the time bomb reference.

Edit: I just noticed Empty Inside has responded above me, so I haven't read her post before submitting this one.



Badblood said:


> I agree up to a point. Both the BS and the WS are going to have their moments, no doubt, but *you can't solve two separate issues at the same time, or you will end up neglecting both.* One or the other is going to have to take precedence. Whichever is the most urgent needs to be dealt with first, and that usually is the BS's.


I agree with the bolded. In sports, it is called the acute interference hypothesis.

Immediately post-affair: BS>WS.


----------



## iheartlife

iJordan said:


> That's great for the two of you, but it doesn't answer or refute my argument that it is impossible to argue *every aspect* is better.


Yes, but that is always true. There are always good parts and bad parts to marriage. In order to stay, the good ought to outweigh the bad. So after infidelity, eventually reconcilation needs to reach this state, for both spouses, or else there's no point. 

After infidelity and a healthy reconciliation, different parts or the marriage will be good and bad than before or during the affair. The marriage is NEVER perfect. But in order to move beyond betrayal, the net balance has to be good, and like B1 for me it must be very very good (excellence always preferred . ). Perfect? No. In ALL ways better? No. Different? Absolutely. Net improvement / gain? Yes, or reconciliation is pointless. Blowing up an affair ought to force the loyal spouse to demand excellence from the marriage and their partner and themselves, where previously just skating by was the standard that ruled the day. 

I realize that lots of people in R settle for okay, or worse. I can't relate to that, and I don't understand it. It isn't something I'd choose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iJordan

iheartlife said:


> But in order to move beyond betrayal, the net balance has to be good...


That's a good way to phrase it.


----------



## aug

Empty Inside said:


> *We have been through the bowels of Hell and back. * We lost what we had...... that's fine. It wasn't sustainable. But B1 and I have emerged..... stronger, wiser, healthier, more humble, more grateful, more aware, and more in love than we have ever been before. Reconciliation is probably a lot like sobriety..... it is a choice that you make every day. You can be sober for years and then have one drink and you are no longer sober. Today we choose reconciliation..... I don't care what anyone calls it, I just know that it is better than anything that we have ever experienced before..... not because of the hurt that we are, both, feeling, but in spite of it. But, we are armed with the knowledge of how valuable we are to one another. Everyone else if free to define their marriage, their reconciliation, their divorce..... however they choose. This one belongs to EI and B1 and we are in a better place. I would dare to say that our marriage is stronger and better than many who have not been shattered by infidelity. Who is to say that, perhaps, those marriages are not the ticking time bombs. There is such a thing as a False R(econciliation) but there are also many who live in F R(ealities) as well. They just don't know it. We know.


No, I dont think you both have. It's a difficult situation no doubt. But it could had been worse. For example, B1 could had responded with a revenge affair and got his other woman pregnant.

The way you present it, infidelity wears well on you both.


----------



## SomedayDig

Nice. See this is half the battle. Having every horrible idea and innuendo thrown about. It's pretty laughable to observe at times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Racer

aug said:


> No, I dont think you both have. It's a difficult situation no doubt. But it could had been worse.


Oh yes, I’m not sure if you’ve dealt with a unremorseful wayward... To give you some insight of the 'attitude':

From her to her friend a month after DD talking about her mother taking the news when I outted her. Also note the veiled threat of suicide she was using openly with me to get me to shut up and 'let her be happy'.


Racer's Wife said:


> I read (toxic friend) her email, she said "I find the lack of support u get from ur family appalling"..very (toxic friendish)...I started laughing and said actually its a good thing she's pissing me off b/c it keeps me from going swimming b/c it motivates me to make dead sure my OWN daughter never ever questions her own abilities, her own spine or her own happiness. And she'll know I got her back no matter what she decides and chooses


Three months into MC (and she’s still in contact with EA and doesn't know I have access to text messages yet)..


Racer's WW said:


> I'm so fking pissed off!!!! He's going through my friends on Facebook and adding them?? He changed his marital status to "it's complicated?". He wants to play pathetic fking victim to all 12 of his friends? Go right ahead. What a fking baby!!! HOW OLD R U???!!!??? I thought I was a spoiled fking brat. I can't even have a facebook account without him ruining it. Is there nothing he doesn't have to ruin? Why must he go so far out of his way to get a reaction out of me? Why? What purpose does it serve??
> O wait - don't reply!!!! I don't want him to read this or know that I have escaped the bars of my prison cell!


There are variations of hell.... This was my WW’s idea of R round 1.... I eventually broke under this. Some scars don't heal easily.


----------



## EI

aug said:


> No, I dont think you both have. It's a difficult situation no doubt. But it could had been worse. For example, *B1 could had responded with a revenge affair and got his other woman pregnant.*
> 
> The way you present it, infidelity wears well on you both.


Nope, couldn't have happened that way. After the last bambino 17 years ago, Hubby joined the V club..... 

Now, are we going to dissect what "going to Hell and back" constitutes? I never said that we had endured the worst possible case scenario... The honor, that day, went to my closet lifelong friend. The day, late in May, that would end having become known as D-Day for B1 and myself, began as the day that my best friend and her husband lost their 20 year old son (her stepson, his only child) to cancer. I would rather B1 father 20 children with some fictitious OW than to endure the loss of my child. There are varying degrees of Hell. Ours was very hot, non-the-less.


----------



## iJordan

Empty Inside said:


> Nope, couldn't have happened that way. After the last bambino 17 years ago, Hubby joined the V club.....
> 
> Now, are we going to dissect what "going to Hell and back" constitutes? I never said that we had endured the worst possible case scenario... The honor, that day, went to my closet lifelong friend. The day, late in May, that would end having become known as D-Day for B1 and myself, began as the day that my best friend and her husband lost their 20 year old son (her stepson, his only child) to cancer. I would rather B1 father 20 children with some fictitious OW than to endure the loss of my child. There are varying degrees of Hell. Ours was very hot, non-the-less.


I think what aug was saying is that your husband went to hell and back, not you—or not in the same way.


----------



## EI

iJordan said:


> I think what aug was saying is that your husband went to hell and back, not you—or not in the same way.


You have no idea of what I've been through...... none at all. I've lost my patience. I'm done with you.


----------



## iJordan

Empty Inside said:


> You have no idea of what I've been through...... none at all. I've lost my patience. I'm done with you.


Perhaps before losing your patience you should learn to read s-l-o-w-e-r:



> *I think what aug was saying is* that your husband went to hell and back, not you—or not in the same way.


----------



## SomedayDig

Ya know... I'm the BS and I know that maybe the road I'm walking and have walked over the past 5 months has been a little rougher than Regret's, but to think the truly remorseful WS has had a cake walk is untrue. Until people can drop their own petty crap instead of thinking everyone else thinks or acts just like them, then this stuff is far less than helpful.

How does anyone on a stupid anonymous internet forum think they have any f'ng clue as to what anyone has gone through.

Shows a lot of idiocy IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

By the way ~ if there's better roads to hell and back, let me know so I can update my GPS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> Ya know... I'm the BS and I know that maybe the road I'm walking and have walked over the past 5 months has been a little rougher than Regret's, but to think the truly remorseful WS has had a cake walk is untrue.
> 
> Until people can drop their own petty crap instead of thinking everyone else thinks or acts just like them, then this stuff is far less than helpful.
> 
> *How does anyone on a stupid anonymous internet forum think they have any f'ng clue as to what anyone has gone through.
> *
> Shows a lot of idiocy IMO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


1) Because they have posted—often in detail—what they are going through on this 'stupid anonymous internet forum' and 2) because as much as people like to think they are different and individual, they aren't nearly as different or individual as they think.

No one said that the cheating spouse had a cakewalk, so I'm not sure where that straw man came from. But, if Empty Inside wants to claim that her affair was just as hard on her as it was for the husband she cheated on, fine—I would LOVE to hear it. 

Oh, and if your last comment was directed at me, have the stones to quote me directly rather than throwing around vague insults.


----------



## SomedayDig

No, if I'm gonna call someone an idiot, I'll just say it. I don't do passive aggressive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Racer

SomedayDig said:


> ... but to think the truly remorseful WS has had a cake walk is untrue. Until people can drop their own petty crap instead of thinking everyone else thinks or acts just like them, then this stuff is far less than helpful.


Can’t agree with you more... 

My wife has gone through her own hell different than mine. Like I said earlier, there are several variations of hell. So, from my above, you can see all the anger my WW had. Later, I broke her. And with her IC’s help, we sort of got to the bottom of all that anger. Our son had been molested; That triggered my wife’s old rape trauma. And she went berserk. Think along the lines of how you were on Discovery and your behavior. I had unknowingly stepped into it... I got between her and the kids. I became the enemy. Since she couldn’t place where all that absolute rage, sense of helplessness and frustration came from.... She conveniently aimed it at me. I was the ‘source’; She went through every flaw and magnified it in her head. Then she spent the next six years ‘getting me back’ for being such a monster and piling on the resentment. Overwhelming anger directed at me.

The closest I can relate is through my own rage and anger of betrayal is if I spent years having outside relationships and revenge affairs to ‘get even’. Then, one day, dealing with all this destruction around me, it comes to light that she’d never really done anything wrong. I had been completely wrong. I’d just spent six years of my life destroying her and the marriage out of misplaced vengeance. Try living with that, knowing how awful you were, knowing the terrible things you did to your spouse... and recognizing that their only ‘fault’ was loving you. Her suicide threats eventually became real threats and she no longer wanted to face herself knowing what she’d done for all the absolute wrong reasons. This is also when the real changes started happening.


----------



## Wazza

Almostrecovered said:


> I suppose if there is one thing that I am thankful for that stemmed from the infidelity is that is a direct result of my wife's cheating is that I am no longer blind to the fact that it can all go away. And I am perfectly fine with that fact. I choose not to live with that fear and will enjoy the ride until it ends. Which isn't to say that I live with my head buried in the sand either, I'm very cognizant of who she is and what she was capable of doing and will never discount that it won't happen again. But I can't control that and if it happens it happens, I won't claim that my life was wasted, it is my choice to stay with her and as of right now I have no regrets about R and haven't had that feeling of doubt for quite some time.


This is the key to why, for me at any rate the post affair marriage is stronger and better. Because I understand we are human and frail, and I better not be complacent if I want a good marriage. 



chumplady said:


> My point is -- it is ALL RISK. *You don't know*, and unless you want a marriage of being the marriage police or have a time travel machine, you probably aren't ever going to know. Cheaters lie.


Very true. My value judgement is that my wife is a decent person at heart, and that I understand the circumstances where she is likely to break and can take steps to prevent them arising again. If I knew in 1989 what I know now, the affair would almost certainly never have happened. She's a better risk than someone else who I haven't known for 30 years at an intimate level imo. That's not a comment on anyone else's relationship just mine.


----------



## Badblood

warlock07 said:


> Also, awesome thread guys.


Well, Warlock, you spoke too fast. This started out as a very useful and informative thread, with lots of good, polite debate going on, but as usual, it has descended into a pissing contest, with everybody's ego on heightened alert. Jordan and somedaydig, if either of you think that this is a "stupid" internet forum, then why are you wasting your time doing something you think is "stupid"? :scratchhead: For your info, Since my wife's affair, I have been on several forums, and TAM is one of the very best. Very well moderated, and more importantly , very much SELF moderated by a number of really good experienced folks, whose only concerns are helpfulness,fair play and polite discourse. This forum beats SI into a ****ed hat, and is much more open to different ideas than LS or Marriage Builders. If any posters have issues with another poster let the Mods handle it, or take it to PM. But leave the platform alone, it's a pretty good one.


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## Wazza

iJordan said:


> I think that people who claim that their marriage is better post-affair are deluding themselves. Sure, aspects may be better—perhaps they have improved communication or intimacy, for example—but the structural integrity will always be compromised.
> 
> In my opinion, a sensible reconciliation includes the realisation that there is no 'new marriage' with your cheating spouse; there is just the attempt to rebuild your broken marriage in the hope that it will be enough.


My perspective is that the structural integrity is a myth. If you are an adult human, you are susceptible to sexual desire and emotional needs, and if you don't manage them they will at times overwhelm you.

You can read many examples here of selfish people whose only motto was "look after myself and don't get caught" but there are also many examples of people who fell in a moment of weakness. And funnily enough, I've seen both in real life too.

New marriage vs broken marriage. I took the new marriage path, and only recently have switched back to seeing it as a continuation of a broken marriage. It was a necessary step to regain full intimacy, but it took a long time to get there and was not easy.


----------



## iJordan

Badblood said:


> Well, Warlock, you spoke too fast. This started out as a very useful and informative thread, with lots of good, polite debate going on, but as usual, it has descended into a pissing contest, with everybody's ego on heightened alert. Jordan and somedaydig, if either of you think that this is a "stupid" internet forum, then why are you wasting your time doing something you think is "stupid"? :scratchhead: For your info, Since my wife's affair, I have been on several forums, and TAM is one of the very best. Very well moderated, and more importantly , very much SELF moderated by a number of really good experienced folks, whose only concerns are helpfulness,fair play and polite discourse. This forum beats SI into a ****ed hat, and is much more open to different ideas than LS or Marriage Builders. If any posters have issues with another poster let the Mods handle it, or take it to PM. But leave the platform alone, it's a pretty good one.


I must admit, this is getting frustrating. 

If you look at my post, you'll see that I purposefully wrapped 'stupid anonymous internet forum' in quotation marks to denote the fact that I was quoting SomedayDig.

I have lucidly given my opinion on this matter and further clarified when misrepresented or misunderstood—to the benefit of this thread, I might add. None of that has been a pissing contest.


----------



## B1

iJordan said:


> 1) No one said that the cheating spouse had a cakewalk, so I'm not sure where that straw man came from. But, if Empty Inside wants to claim that her affair was just as hard on her as it was the husband she cheated on, fine—I would LOVE to hear it.


iJordan, I will post this, not really wanting to but just to get a point across and to maybe help others to see how a WS could possibly hurt as bad as a BS. Not saying in every case, not saying every time, not even saying in my case, but this will hopefully give some insight into EI's frame of mind the moments leading up to the affair. And it will also show the state of our sorry marriage pre-affair.

I will post here and now what I did to her over roughly 10 years. It's not pretty, I am deeply ashamed and regretful but I was depressed, had low-t and was completely shut down emotionally. I had my own issues also.

Here we go..and remember this is ONLY touching the surface.

No I was never physical, I never ever hit her or verbally abused her but I did humiliate her, and I rejected her physically and emotionally. In 10 years I would guess we had sex maybe 3-4 times a year at most. We went for about a year before without sex, I could have gone the whole time without it. I had zero desire, none. And that meant I didn't desire her at all and she knew it.

She, in the last 3 years, got counseling, lost weight, got incredibly hot, beat depression, had a new attitude, bought sexy clothes, bought candles, perfumes, turned down the lights on more than one occasion and pranced around in front of me in her lingerie and you know what I did? I told her she didn't look very good in it, or I ignored her completely, it NEVER led to sex ever, it actually pi$$ed me off when she did it. She tried this over roughly 3 years. She tried to have an affair with me.

She stopped sleeping in our bed after a while because she couldn't handle the loneliness and hurt, you see if she even touched me I would pull away or say stop it. I did NOT want her touching me. So, she started sleeping on the couch and that was about the beginning of the end.

She got me into counseling and even the counselor knew it wasn't good then, he couldn't get through to me either. I didn't stick with it of course.

I said things in front of her friends that were degrading about her and it brings tears to my eyes as I type this. When she wanted to make love I made comments like.."It's just sex what's the big deal" she begged me once towards the end to make love to her, she was in tears and I snapped back, "Make love to you...look at you your crying"

NO ONE but her will ever truly understand the depth of my coldness and rejection that I put her through. I KNOW she suffered horribly and for a long long time. Now does it equal my pain? who is to say it does or doesn't, I know she cried a lot over the years and would cry at night in bed. I know she begged me to love her, to touch her, to hold her but I wouldn't.
God, I was cruel at times and she hurt, she hurt bad.

She posted once on her thread about this and there is even more things I said and did, so if you want to see more it's out there. 

So, you all know the rest of the story, she reached out to an old flame, and sought passion elsewhere. Not an excuse at all, but had I been a loving, caring, hands on husband she NEVER would have reached out for another man. She didn't cheat on a happy marriage or happy husband, she cheated on a $hity marriage and a cold shutdown husband. Again, she should have divorced me true..but there were reasons she felt that she couldn't. Primarily the security and well being of our children. 

Am I defending her affair, NO, I am giving you some insight as to how she felt. I am 10 weeks past DDay and I am not a foolish man, I have read a lot and learned a lot and my wife IS different, her reason for the affair is not the norm. This new me could never put up with that much rejection for a month let alone for years. So when I say we had no marriage pre-affair I am not kidding.

Who is to say who hurts more, me or her?

What we are learning is that it doesn't matter now, we are HAPPILY married now, sure with some challenges but this new marriage is FAR from the old one. I love her, I hold her, I cuddle with her, we talk, we laugh and joke, and she loves me and is doing everything she can to make up for this horrible choice she made. She knows she messed up, she owns it, but I own my part too and perhaps that's were we are a tad different?

When she prances around in lingerie now...well I can tell you she isn't rejected anymore, and when she comes to me in tears because she is sorry, I hold her, and she holds me when I hurt.

This marriage is different than before, it is far better and far more fulfilling. I guess the biggest question and the biggest unknown is, will it endure. will it stand the test of time....will this R work? ....I think so, I hope so!


I love you EI and I am so incredibly sorry for what I said and what I did, and for what I didn't do. I know this is hard to read, it drums up a horrible past and a lot of hurt. Believe me, I didn't like writing it, I wiped away tears more then once to write this.
Know that I am sorry and I love you with every ounce of my being.


----------



## Vegemite

Badblood said:


> I agree with most of your post, Hope, except the very first statement. Affair sex is most emphatically NOT the same as pre-marital sex, but other than that, a pretty good post.:smthumbup:


Absolutely. When you're married, you're supposed to be totally commited. To cheat is totally disrespectful.


----------



## B1

Now back to Reconciliation.....and what does it mean to you


----------



## Harken Banks

betrayed1 said:


> Now back to Reconciliation.....and what does it mean to you


On this board, in this thread? It's like we have gotten to that point late at night where everyone is a maudlin mess narrowly projecting their own bitter disappointments on everyone else in the conversation and there is one pathetic guy -I'll be that guy-who has fallen into tears wailing "You guys are the bestest! (sob) I love you guys!"


----------



## SomedayDig

Must find how to use LIKE on mobile.... Harken!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

B1... To me it means staring all adversity in the face, including hatred, humiliation, betrayal and distrust and giving a big ol' middle finger salute.

Then again... I'm kind of an a-hole and took a machete and started chopping my own road off the "road less traveled".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

By the way Badblood... My comment about forums was not directed at TAM. It was more of a generalized point of view that I meant. That anyone thinks they're so high and mighty regardless of their "experiences" that they chastise those who don't "listen" to them... Well, that's just a little over the top.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Harken Banks said:


> On this board, in this thread? It's like we have gotten to that point late at night where everyone is a maudlin mess narrowly projecting their own bitter disappointments on everyone else in the conversation and there is one pathetic guy -I'll be that guy-who has fallen into tears wailing "You guys are the bestest! (sob) I love you guys!"





SomedayDig said:


> B1... To me it means staring all adversity in the face, including hatred, humiliation, betrayal and distrust and giving a big ol' middle finger salute.
> 
> Then again... I'm kind of an a-hole and took a machete and started chopping my own road off the "road less traveled".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay fellas, how many beers have you had tonight?


----------



## SomedayDig

Pfft... Beer! I'm at our tent site with Hennessey! LOL

Edit: however, I am serious about my comment on reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

None, but just to get caught up to this thread I may start...NOT


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> B1... To me it means staring all adversity in the face, including hatred, humiliation, betrayal and distrust and giving a big ol' middle finger salute.
> 
> Then again... I'm kind of an a-hole and took a machete and started chopping my own road off the "road less traveled".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Harken Banks said:


> On this board, in this thread? It's like we have gotten to that point late at night where everyone is a maudlin mess narrowly projecting their own bitter disappointments on everyone else in the conversation and there is one pathetic guy -I'll be that guy-who has fallen into tears wailing "You guys are the bestest! (sob) I love you guys!"


Not exactly where I wanted this to go, but it sure made me and EI laugh ..thanks for the good night laugh guys :rofl:


----------



## Harken Banks

Process. Trying to be bigger than the insult and betrayal when that calls for more than is in your character. Holding on when it cleaves to, even through, the core. Allowing yourself to give in to moments of uncomplicated happiness. Following after, even pursuing that happiness. Knowing you are without a net and left open. Sometimes giving in to the pain and lashing out at the insult and betrayal. Viciously. On a personal note, recognizing that I love my wife through and through, which brings new hurt. Because at least some part of what I love wanted something else. Taking the longer view.



Empty Inside said:


> Okay fellas, how many beers have you had tonight?


Bottle of pinot, a few Torpedos, beaucoup de Jack.


----------



## EI

Harken Banks said:


> recognizing that I love my wife through and through


Hold onto that, Harken, and give your wife time to prove to you how truly remorseful she is and that she loves you, and only you, too! 

BTW: If you haven't told AllMessedUp today what you wrote above, then please make sure that you do. I promise you that it won't go unnoticed or unappreciated.


----------



## SomedayDig

Jack Daniels and I are such good friends, I call him John.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Empty Inside said:


> BTW: If you haven't told AllMessedUp today what you wrote above, then please make sure that you do. I promise you that it won't go unnoticed or unappreciated.


Yes, she will be pleased and surprised to hear that I have consummed enough alcohol to stun or kill a mule.


----------



## CantSitStill

Love hurts but it's worth it, drinking my beer but would love some jack
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> Pfft... Beer! I'm at our tent site with Hennessey!


How is the sky?


----------



## SomedayDig

Harken, Regret and I have been marvelling that it's beautiful and we're only 8 miles from home. Crystal clear with a great view of Vega and the Summer Triangle. In a couple weeks we'll be on vacation at the beach. The stars there are amazing. The Milky Way is lustrous. I only wish we could bring my 10" Meade scope. We just talked about getting a trailer for the damn thing! LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> Harken, Regret and I have been marvelling that it's beautiful and we're only 8 miles from home. Crystal clear with a great view of Vega and the Summer Triangle. In a couple weeks we'll be on vacation at the beach. The stars there are amazing. The Milky Way is lustrous. I only wish we could bring my 10" Meade scope. We just talked about getting a trailer for the damn thing! LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perspective.


----------



## SomedayDig

Amen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Love looking at the stars thru the telescope with Calvin
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> By the way Badblood... My comment about forums was not directed at TAM. It was more of a generalized point of view that I meant. That anyone thinks they're so high and mighty regardless of their "experiences" that they chastise those who don't "listen" to them... Well, that's just a little over the top.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dude, you said, what you said, own it. If you were speaking out of frustration, that's OK, but sometimes it seems that posters forget that this site is both anonymous and free, and begin to lambast it, as if it is the problem. :scratchhead: So sometimes I feel that it is necessary to defend the good OLE TAM.  We all get frustrated. What I didn't want was for you and Jordan to derail a really good thread. Thats all


----------



## Badblood

Jack and I parted company years ago. Rittenhouse Bottled in Bond Rye, so smooth that they have to keep it in the ice cream section. Or Talisker Scotch makes me wish I were Scottish. Or George ****el, or Ezra Brooks or .......so many bottles , so little time. Sorry for the T/J.


----------



## Badblood

Harken Banks said:


> Process. Trying to be bigger than the insult and betrayal when that calls for more than is in your character. Holding on when it cleaves to, even through, the core. Allowing yourself to give in to moments of uncomplicated happiness. Following after, even pursuing that happiness. Knowing you are without a net and left open. Sometimes giving in to the pain and lashing out at the insult and betrayal. Viciously. On a personal note, recognizing that I love my wife through and through, which brings new hurt. Because at least some part of what I love wanted something else. Taking the longer view.
> 
> 
> 
> Bottle of pinot, a few Torpedos, beaucoup de Jack.


Banks hit on one of the major issues facing R. that the one you love, for whatever reason , wanted someone else, and wanted him/her so much that they were will to do all of the evil things WS do, in order to get them. If there is a more bitter pill that the BS has to swallow, I don't know what it would be.


----------



## B1

Badblood said:


> Banks hit on one of the major issues facing R. that the one you love, for whatever reason , wanted someone else, and wanted him/her so much that they were will to do all of the evil things WS do, in order to get them. If there is a more bitter pill that the BS has to swallow, I don't know what it would be.


Yes, you are correct BB and Banks, this is a bitter pill but to me the physical aspect is just as bitter. Aug said something a while back about "sharing your spouse" and accepting that. Yes, if you want to R, then this is something that has to be dealt with and something that has to ultimately be forgiven. R is not easy, know one said it would be. This is just part of it. I struggle daily with this...but I also love her daily and my love is just plain stronger than the pain and hurt. 

Now there are moments when that pain and hurt are stronger and I have a melt down but we deal with this issue head on, we talk through it and we do not ignore it. It always scares her too becuase she thinks, "this is it, he's going to say it's over I can't do this"..but even when I am at my maddest, and hurting the most, deep down I know it's a process and I will work through it, I am fully committed to this R and I know I love her and she loves me an together we will manage this. 

We have a MC session today, can't wait.


----------



## Regret214

RECONCILIATION 
by William S. Cottringer

Living is experiencing 
both paths of life— 
Peace and turmoil, 
right and wrong, 
together and alone. 

Wisdom is knowing why— 
so we can see the difference 
and finally find 
the hidden path between, 
where things rejoin. 

We get our share of bruises 
searching for this simple truth; 
as it is revealed to us 
when we don’t understand, 
loitering and lost, 
deaf and blind. 

When we do wake up 
to knowing who we are, 
we start our real journey— 
putting back together 
all the things we took apart


----------



## SomedayDig

That's what I'm talkin about!


----------



## iJordan

betrayed1 said:


> iJordan, I will post this, not really wanting to but just to get a point across and to maybe help others to see how a WS could possibly hurt as bad as a BS. Not saying in every case, not saying every time, not even saying in my case, but this will hopefully give some insight into EI's frame of mind the moments leading up to the affair. And it will also show the state of our sorry marriage pre-affair.


You're comparing the hurt you caused her pre-affair with the hurt she caused you as a direct result of her affair. That balancing approach may have its uses as a tool to get over infidelity, but it doesn't say anything about how an affair can be just as hard on the cheating spouse.

Anyway, I've argued my case and I think an impasse has been reached.


----------



## seasalt

Dear Empty Inside,

I think this reconcilliation thread needs to address one other thing that you may also want to consider (you decide the proper word). Before I proceed, to perhaps soften the words that follow, I'd like to mention that awhile ago I had recommended that Regret214 visit your thread to see a good example of a marriage in the process of redemption.

My one other thing and I wonder if it has been addressed between the two of you, is that you left him behind to suffer with his very understandable, (based upon your provided familly history), obvious and palpable depression. If a good part of his new lease on life can be attributed to testosterone shots can you say that you tried hard enough, lovingly enough or creatively enough before you chose the out that you did?

Your husband has made it quite clear that he was no longer someone to be prized but should your reconcilliation efforts also be to make up for that abandonment. After all that was your first act of faithlessness.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the connection you made with someone else but that you gave up on your relationship with your now appreciated husband which would have been the same as if you had divorced him.


----------



## Regret214

iJordan said:


> You're comparing the hurt you caused her pre-affair with the hurt she caused you as a direct result of her affair. That balancing approach may have its uses as a tool to get over infidelity, but it doesn't say anything about how an affair can be just as hard on the cheating spouse.
> 
> Anyway, I've argued my case and I think an impasse has been reached.


I don't think any one of us can say that an affair affects the BS and WS in the same way. There are undoubtedly underlying issues that lead up to an affair, and it is unfortunate that some of us chose to have an affair. But the aftermath following Dday is painful for both parties. The BS is hurt by the actions of the WS and the WS is hurt by their own actions. There is no way to compare the degree of hurt between the two unless you have truly been in the other's shoes. The fact is, an affair is a horrible thing to have to deal with, and reconciling after an affair takes a tremendous amount of strength, courage, and inward reflection for both parties. If either party cannot see how their actions will affect the reconciliation, it will not work.


----------



## Regret214

seasalt said:


> Your husband has made it quite clear that he was no longer someone to be prized but should your reconcilliation efforts also be to make up for that abandonment. After all that was your first act of faithlessness.


EI, forgive me for addressing this. I feel that it is something for all WS to address.....

This is a conversation that Dig and I have had several times. IMO, an affair doesn't just happen. The WS must already have abandoned their marriage in order to justify it. Looking at my own situation, which is very different from EI's, I have been able to identify when I checked out of my marriage. It was 2 years prior to the start of my affair. I had just had a miscarriage and felt utterly alone and depressed. There is no excuse for not trying to fix things....I convinced myself and everyone else that it was Dig's fault I was unhappy. I had no idea I was the one lost. Time passed and I continued down this path of destruction towards the OM. And yes, part of the R does involve making amends for it ALL! Not just the A.


----------



## iJordan

Regret214 said:


> I don't think any one of us can say that an affair affects the BS and WS in the same way. There are undoubtedly underlying issues that lead up to an affair, and it is unfortunate that some of us chose to have an affair. But the aftermath following Dday is painful for both parties. The BS is hurt by the actions of the WS and the WS is hurt by their own actions. There is no way to compare the degree of hurt between the two unless you have truly been in the other's shoes. The fact is, an affair is a horrible thing to have to deal with, and reconciling after an affair takes a tremendous amount of strength, courage, and inward reflection for both parties. If either party cannot see how their actions will affect the reconciliation, it will not work.


Quite frankly, I think it is absolute lunacy to argue that an affair can affect both parties in the same way. All I see are non sequiturs discussing pre-affair and intra-reconciliation dynamics. I also don't think you need to have experienced both betrayal and betraying to make a judgement about who had it worse: you wouldn't say the same for a drunk driver who accidently killed someone, despite both affected parties having degrees of hurt.

IMO, the very nature of comparing the hurt a BS is feeling because of _an act_ to the 'hurt' a WS feels for _acting_ is cheater sympathising and not conducive to a successful and respectful *reconciliation*. 

^^^
Driving home why this conversation is apropos.


----------



## the guy

Was the drunk driver someone you know or is it a stranger?

Is the person that was killed loved one or a complete stranger?


----------



## iJordan

the guy said:


> Was the drunk driver someone you know or is it a stranger?
> 
> Is the person that was killed loved one or a complete stranger?


In my analogy, you don't know the driver, nor the victim.


----------



## CantSitStill

Did someone say that their cheating was worth it? Did I miss something? Did someone say the WS has the same pain as the BS? If so I disagree. The BS goes thru total hell of replaying what happened to them over and over and over as the WS regrets what they did and is afraid their spouse is gonna change their mind about R. It's definately never the right thing to do when someone cheats. I don't know but every relationship is different with different circumstances and Idon't feel like debating, was just confused what all this debating is about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

iJordan said:


> Quite frankly, I think it is absolute lunacy to argue that an affair can affect both parties in the same way.


*Please note the first sentence of my post...*



Regret214 said:


> I don't think any one of us can say that an affair affects the BS and WS in the same way.





iJordan said:


> non sequiturs


*IMO you didn't read my post carefully.*



iJordan said:


> I also don't think you need to have experienced both betrayal and betraying to make a *judgement* about who had it worse:


*Judgement???? Opinion stated as fact??? Not my position to do....and I am not trying to.*




iJordan said:


> you wouldn't say the same for a drunk driver who accidently killed someone, despite both affected parties having degrees of hurt.


*Both parties are hurt, yes! They cannot be compared, but they both hurt, especially if the DD is truly remorseful.*


----------



## EI

iJordan said:


> Perhaps before losing your patience you should learn to read s-l-o-w-e-r:


You're rude!



iJordan said:


> 1) Because they have posted—often in detail—what they are going through on this 'stupid anonymous internet forum' and 2) *because as much as people like to think they are different and individual, they aren't nearly as different or individual as they think.*


Yes, everyone thinks they're an armchair psychologist! 




iJordan said:


> No one said that the cheating spouse had a cakewalk, so I'm not sure where that straw man came from. *But, if Empty Inside wants to claim that her affair was just as hard on her as it was for the husband she cheated on, fine—I would LOVE to hear it.*


I'm not sure that I can state this any more clearly than I already have, but because you would LOVE to hear it, let me state, for the record, that neither B1 or I ever said that _my affair_ was as hard on me as it was on him. What we have both said, repeatedly, was that I was terribly hurt by him, and in an emotionally depleted state, after trying, and failing, many times, to get my husband to work with me, to improve the state of our marriage, prior to my affair. And, NO ONE, can weigh, compare or invalidate one hurt against another. Each is significant. My hurt prior to my affair and his hurt, as a direct result of my affair, BOTH hurt..... D-o y-o-u u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d?



iJordan said:


> Oh, and if your last comment was directed at me, have the stones to quote me directly rather than throwing around vague insults.


I think Dig was pretty clear that that *was* directed at you. *I* don't think he was vague, at all.



iJordan said:


> I must admit, this is getting frustrating.
> 
> If you look at my post, you'll see that I purposefully wrapped 'stupid anonymous internet forum' in quotation marks to denote the fact that I was quoting SomedayDig.
> 
> *I have lucidly given my opinion on this matter and further clarified when misrepresented or misunderstood—to the benefit of this thread*, I might add. None of that has been a pissing contest.


I think that is what we are all doing here. Giving our own opinions, based on our personal experiences and feelings. I don't feel that you have been subject to having been misunderstood and you certainly have not been misrepresented on this thread. Any benefit you think you have made to this thread is subject to the readers' opinion. I'll keep mine to myself on this one.



iJordan said:


> You're comparing the hurt you caused her pre-affair with the hurt she caused you as a direct result of her affair.


Correct, he is..... because it's significant.



iJordan said:


> That balancing approach may have its uses as a tool to get over infidelity, but it doesn't say anything about how an affair can be just as hard on the cheating spouse.


I have tried to come up with something for this. This is all I've got. 



iJordan said:


> Anyway, I've argued *my case* and I think an impasse has been reached.


I believe that is the point, here, this isn't *your case*, it was never about you. This isn't your story and you are making an argument over "the wording" of our thoughts and feelings. The important subject on this thread is "Reconciliation" and you have high jacked it with semantics. B1 and I were sharing *our* personal experience and feelings on the subject.

This is my last post on your comments..... I promise.


----------



## Regret214

CantSitStill said:


> Did someone say that their cheating was worth it? Did I miss something? Did someone say the WS has the same pain as the BS? If so I disagree. The BS goes thru total hell of replaying what happened to them over and over and over as the WS regrets what they did and is afraid their spouse is gonna change their mind about R. It's definately never the right thing to do when someone cheats. I don't know but every relationship is different with different circumstances and Idon't feel like debating, was just confused what all this debating is about.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly, this debate is silly, and I am sorry to have contributed to it. I get frustrated when my words get misconstrued.


----------



## iJordan

Regret214 said:


> *IMO you didn't read my post carefully.*


IMO, you didn't read mine... I never accused you of what you quoted me as saying; I was responding to your first sentence with a firmer stance.



Regret214 said:


> *Judgement???? Opinion stated as fact??? Not my position to do....and I am not trying to.*


Yes—judgement: _'the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions' _(Oxford Dictionaries, 2012), i.e., _'I don't think you need to have experienced both betrayal and betraying to make [considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions] about who had it worse',_ vis-à-vis your quote:



> There is no way to compare the degree of hurt between the two unless you have truly been in the other's shoes


----------



## iJordan

Empty Inside said:


> You're rude!


As were you. I responded in kind to your mistake.



Empty Inside said:


> Yes, everyone thinks they're an armchair psychologist!


Irrelevant ad hominem.



Empty Inside said:


> I'm not sure that I can state this any more clearly than I already have, but because you would LOVE to hear it, let me state, for the record, that neither B1 or I ever said that _my affair_ was as hard on me as it was on him. What we have both said, repeatedly, was that I was terribly hurt by him, and in an emotionally depleted state, after trying, and failing, many times, to get my husband to work with me, to improve the state of our marriage, prior to my affair. And, NO ONE, can weigh, compare or invalidate one hurt against another. Each is significant. My hurt prior to my affair and his hurt, as a direct result of my affair, BOTH hurt..... D-o y-o-u u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d?


I've already explained and corrected this non sequitur. 




Empty Inside said:


> I think Dig was pretty clear that that *was* directed at you. *I* don't think he was vague, at all.


He would disagree, since directly after I called him out, he said it was not directed at me.




Empty Inside said:


> I think that is what we are all doing here. Giving our own opinions, based on our personal experiences and feelings. I don't feel that you have been subject to having been misunderstood and you certainly have not been misrepresented on this thread. Any benefit you think you have made to this thread is subject to the readers' opinion. I'll keep mine to myself on this one.


Then you don't know the definition of misunderstood and misrepresented.




Empty Inside said:


> Correct, he is..... because it's significant.


It's irrelevant to my point is what it is—as explained.




Empty Inside said:


> I have tried to come up with something for this. *This is all I've got.*


Not surprising. I've already explained this more times that it should be necessary.




Empty Inside said:


> This is my last post on your comments..... I promise.


Good.


----------



## Regret214

Ugggg, I don't think you get it.


----------



## iJordan

Regret214 said:


> Ugggg, I don't think you get it.


No, I think I just demonstrated that you don't get it.


----------



## EI

Seasalt, Regret and CSS, I appreciate all of your posts and I will respond later this afternoon. B1 and I have an MC session and I am very much looking forward it. We are going to discuss how I am going to start "Making Amends!" I love my husband with all of my heart. I feel so blessed to be in this marriage with him and am looking forward to a happier future than I ever dreamed possible. 

B1, I'm logging off now! I'm going to get ready. I can't wait until you get home to pick me up for our MC session. And, I can't wait to spend every day of my life loving you, honoring you, cherishing you, adoring you, desiring you and making this up to you. How did I ever get to be so lucky? Thank you soooooooo much for loving me the way you do! You are my husband, my best friend, my lover, and my knight in shining armor! <3<3<3


P. S. I Looooooooooooooove you! <3


----------



## SomedayDig

Sooo.. Jordan... What's your story. You seem to be great at quoting the internet and using truly awesome and somewhat impressive words like "ad hominem" and "non sequetor" and the dictionary. What's your life experience since you appear to think you're so adept at relationships? Care to point the pen at yourself? I, for one, am all ears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> Sooo.. Jordan... What's your story. You seem to be great at quoting the internet and using truly awesome and somewhat impressive words like "ad hominem" and "non sequetor" and the dictionary. What's your life experience since you appear to think you're so adept at relationships? Care to point the pen at yourself? I, for one, am all ears.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We can PM if you like? I don't think this is the right place to discuss it.


----------



## SomedayDig

Sure...PM me, but what about you starting a thread so others can give you advice? Just sayin...if you're giving so well, maybe you could get some, too.

threadjack over on my end.



Reconciliation isn't really about who's simply right or wrong or more hurt. It's about a new beginning. It's about taking those rights, wrongs and hurts and finding a way to make life better. How difficult is it to do this? TONS! There is no secret. There is no magic dust. There is no ONE way.

From 'The Matrix'

Spoon boy:: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.

Neo:: What truth?

Spoon boy:: There is no spoon.

Neo:: There is no spoon?

Spoon boy:: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.


----------



## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> Sure...PM me, but what about you starting a thread so others can give you advice? Just sayin...if you're giving so well, maybe you could get some, too.


I never said I was giving great advice; I said that my posts have been a benefit to this thread. That just means at the very least, people have had something to think about and agree or disagree with—furthering their own position. 

I think you you and everyone else looks back and really reads my posts critically, you'll see I was unfairly attacked.


----------



## EI

seasalt said:


> Dear Empty Inside,
> 
> I think this reconcilliation thread needs to address one other thing that you may also want to consider (you decide the proper word). Before I proceed, to perhaps soften the words that follow, I'd like to mention that awhile ago I had recommended that Regret214 visit your thread to see a good example of a marriage in the process of redemption.
> 
> My one other thing and I wonder if it has been addressed between the two of you, is that you left him behind to suffer with his very understandable, (based upon your provided familly history), obvious and palpable depression. If a good part of his new lease on life can be attributed to testosterone shots can you say that you tried hard enough, lovingly enough or creatively enough before you chose the out that you did?
> 
> Your husband has made it quite clear that he was no longer someone to be prized but should your reconcilliation efforts also be to make up for that abandonment. After all that was your first act of faithlessness.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not talking about the connection you made with someone else but that you gave up on your relationship with your now appreciated husband which would have been the same as if you had divorced him.



This is such a great and valid question and I really appreciate you giving me an opportunity to address it. And, I will, later today. I have to log off and get ready for an MC session. Today, we discuss how I can truly begin to "make amends." I'm very excited about that.

I appreciate your contribution here. That really is a great question! 

Take Care,
EI


----------



## SomedayDig

iJordan said:


> I never said I was giving great advice; I said that my posts have been a benefit to this thread. That just means at the very least, people have had something to think about and agree or disagree with—furthering their own position.
> 
> I think you you and everyone else looks back and really reads my posts critically, you'll see I was unfairly attacked.


Post 178 you say that you've made your argument and are at an impasse (regarding this topic)

Here you are still on Post 197 continuing this. 

This isn't a courtroom. This isn't town hall or Congress. It is not a place to state an argument about this stuff, IMO. It's a place to get advice. And if someone doesn't agree with your advice, that means they're not going to agree and any style of argument is counter productive.

Reconciliation isn't something that needs to be argued like case law. Reconciliation comes from the heart - not a textbook or quoting dictionaries. Reconciliation comes when two people move through hurt and pain together and continue to experience love. That's my take on it.


----------



## iJordan

SomedayDig said:


> Post 178 you say that you've made your argument and are at an impasse (regarding this topic)
> 
> Here you are still on Post 197 continuing this.
> 
> This isn't a courtroom. This isn't town hall or Congress. It is not a place to state an argument about this stuff, IMO. It's a place to get advice. And if someone doesn't agree with your advice, that means they're not going to agree and any style of argument is counter productive.
> 
> Reconciliation isn't something that needs to be argued like case law. Reconciliation comes from the heart - not a textbook or quoting dictionaries. Reconciliation comes when two people move through hurt and pain together and continue to experience love. That's my take on it.


Yes, I did say I was at an impasse, and people continued to reply. It takes two to tango—everyone on this forum should know that...

And I am not a lawyer.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Reconciliation comes when two people move through hurt and pain together and continue to experience love. That's my take on it.



Amen...............


----------



## Harken Banks

Empty Inside said:


> Seasalt, Regret and CSS, I appreciate all of your posts and I will respond later this afternoon. B1 and I have an MC session and I am very much looking forward it. We are going to discuss how I am going to start "Making Amends!" I love my husband with all of my heart. I feel so blessed to be in this marriage with him and am looking forward to a happier future than I ever dreamed possible.
> 
> B1, I'm logging off now! I'm going to get ready. I can't wait until you get home to pick me up for our MC session. And, I can't wait to spend every day of my life loving you, honoring you, cherishing you, adoring you, desiring you and making this up to you. How did I ever get to be so lucky? Thank you soooooooo much for loving me the way you do! You are my husband, my best friend, my lover, and my knight in shining armor! <3<3<3
> 
> 
> P. S. I Looooooooooooooove you! <3


Well said.


----------



## SomedayDig

Harken Banks said:


> Well said.


Dude...my Matrix quote was way better than EI's gushy stuff. Come on!!


----------



## Harken Banks

Yeah, but you're a guy. I'm immune.


----------



## the guy

Lets say all together....1 2 3 "THREAD JACKING"


----------



## Harken Banks

the guy said:


> Lets say all together....1 2 3 "THREAD JACKING"


Yes. Maybe. But I am not sure. We are wrestling with this stuff. Some lattitude should be afforded. Seems to me this thread should be fairly free-from. And I am grateful for iJordan's input. Here and somewhere else where I think I may have butted heads with him.


----------



## Harken Banks

the guy said:


> Lets say all together....1 2 3 "THREAD JACKING"


Maybe I was slow on the uptake. It has happened before. It will happen again.


----------



## Badblood

OK, This is the deal. I think that you all should appoint me honorary referee, because A. I don't give two sh*ts about who is hurting worse the BS or WS, and B. I'm the only person here who hasn't got a case of the hips against somebody else. and C. If somebody doesn't try to get this thread out of the pissing arena, they will lock it tighter than a hatband, and that would be too bad. For the record, the thread starter was about the definition of Reconciliation, and what it means to each poster. Now can we go from there without the T / J's. Please?


----------



## SomedayDig

Was that a thread jack?


----------



## SomedayDig

Again, in all seriousness - I try levity sometimes but it is often misunderstood - I can only say reconciliation for some can sometimes be horror for others. This is based on everyone's version of reality. Example: For Regret and myself, I can say that I know the woman I met and married. She was not the same chick during the affair. Looking back over the past 5 years I can clearly see it. I didn't see it then, probably cuz I was flying a lot and saw her for only a few days before flying again. Not blaming my career at all, mind you. Now, the chick she is seems more like a matured version of the one I met 14 years ago. I like this Regret. She's pretty cool.

Moving through the hurt and pain together.


----------



## Regret214

Thank you, Babe. I continue to work very hard to be the best I can be. Sometimes this is difficult as I was far from a good person for so long, and I have to deal with that very dark side of myself. 

Reconciliation includes being there for each other to guide them and comfort them through the rough times and completely and openly love each other during the good times. The point is, bringing the marriage to the point it should always have been. The pain will always be there, but I hope eventually it will be a fleeting thought amidst the joy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

This thread is not about any individual or specific relationship. This is painful and difficult stuff. There are other threads like it. Where there seems to be a fairly unstructured format to explore the experience. Matt's anger thread and Dig's on archaeology. I think we all should be afforded a fair amount of slack in these common areas.


----------



## Badblood

Harken Banks said:


> This thread is not about any individual or specific relationship. This is painful and difficult stuff. There are other threads like it. Where there seems to be a fairly unstructured format to explore the experience. Matt's anger thread and Dig's on archaeology. I think we all should be afforded a fair amount of slack in these common areas.


I agree that it should be generic, but that's not what it has become, has it? It has become a verbal and very personal ego contest, with tit-for-tat insults and rude behavior. Nobody will learn anything from that kind of thread. But if we can put the egos aside, we can get back to actually learning something new, or a different perspective.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Dude...my Matrix quote was way better than EI's gushy stuff. Come on!!


Says you......... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

This came to my mind today;

Reconciliation...is talking about the gut wrenching things that hurts the BS the most. And the WS responding in a loving, caring manner and not in a defensive one, that's when you know you are on the road to R, Your not there yet, your just on the correct path.


----------



## Hope1964

Reconciliation is when you can have a disagreement which has nothing to do with the cheating.


----------



## CantSitStill

so true and reconcilliation is work, educating yourselves, and tons on communication to get back on track. I was so defensive at first..I blamed my husband for everything. Now I've taken a hard look at myself and don't like what I seen so it's time to change, it's recognizing what you need to do in order to not make those same "mistakes" ok "choices" again. But anyway, it hurts and yet it is so worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I was so defensive at first..I blamed my husband for everything.


Boy, I see myself in that statement. I remember the exact light bulb moment when I realized that I, not B1, was responsible for my decision to have an affair. A short time later in the same conversation I had another light bulb moment. B1 wasn't even *completely* at fault for *all* of the problems in our marriage. Damn, I hate those light bulb kind of moments! :scratchhead: And, so the tide began to turn and a true reconciliation began! Right, Baby (B1)


----------



## SomedayDig

Hope1964 said:


> Reconciliation is when you can have a disagreement which has nothing to do with the cheating.


Perfect!


----------



## Regret214

Reconciliation is when true communication begins.


----------



## Affaircare

EI, Regret and CSS~~

I'm glad to see at least a few more former-disloyal spouses on here to do truly "get it" as I said to Empty Inside...and loyal spouses who "get it" as well. Just so you know, EI, Regret, and CSS I have been here on TAM for years now--many years as pretty much the lone voice for DS's--and it has been my experience that there are some loyal spouses who are so EXTREMELY hurt that they are not able to (don't choose to?) look at themselves and see how they contributed to the nuclear explosion...AND... as a result usually any disloyal spouse who even mentions that there was hurt on both sides is basically burned at the stake. 

I have learned that some people literally are not able to look at themselves and take personal responsibility for their side. That doesn't mean they didn't have a side that they need to address--just that on their life journey they are not able to look at themselves or address it yet. Some people do not yet have it in them to look at their own behavior or how they hurt their spouse and say "Okay my bad choices in NO WAY justify his/her choice to have an affair...but I am STILL responsible for my side and cleaning up what I did whether s/he does or not." Usually it has been my experience that this person still has a little personal growing to do or feels too vulnerable being humble or admitting their own mistakes, etc. Maybe they'll grow--maybe they won't--but they are not there NOW. 

Also it has been my observation that those who do not see this may remain married, but their marriage rather quickly returns to the dysfunctional issues it had before the affair. Now the disloyal spouse may have learned from their affair--they may regret it or see their vulnerability to certain temptations now, etc.--but if their spouse does not learn from the affair too and do some changing of their own too, then the marriage as a whole does not grow, become more mature, or become more intimate. One or the other just "gives in" and lives in a cooperative roommate kind of situation. On the other hand, when BOTH spouse recognize and admit what their own issues, and when BOTH spouses learn and grown and change individually--why those are the marriages that not only reconcile but also go on to grow, be stronger, more loving, more intimate, and more mature because the people in the marriage changed and thus the MARRIAGE changed. 

Sooooo take it from an old vet--you are not going to be welcomed with open arms here, encouraged here, or probably even heard here. Lots of folks actually are in the marital trouble they're in partly because they can't hear their spouse either! LOL But that is not your responsibility--it is theirs. Your job is to keep being honest, keep telling the truth even when it's unpopular, and keep being open and honest. Some folks are going to rub you the wrong way and be hurtful and rail against disloyals. Know what I recommend? Don't even reply. Just report the post where they are are flaming everyone who's ever been disloyal--allow the moderators to make the determination and deal with it if necessary--and then put that person on "ignore." That way you don't have to see their words ever again and they won't/can't hurt you. 

Above all else, I do hope all three of you will stay here. It can be really rough being a disloyal here sometimes, and I like the company AND the encouragement to others that you can recover.


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> so true and reconcilliation is work, educating yourselves, and tons on communication to get back on track. I was so defensive at first..I blamed my husband for everything. Now I've taken a hard look at myself and don't like what I seen so it's time to change, it's recognizing what you need to do in order to not make those same "mistakes" ok "choices" again. But anyway, it hurts and yet it is so worth it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We have to reconcile with ourselves, too? Yes, that's possible...


----------



## EI

Affaircare said:


> EI, Regret and CSS~~
> 
> 
> I do hope all three of you will stay here. It can be really rough being a disloyal here sometimes, and I like the company AND the encouragement to others that you can recover.


Thank you, Affaircare, I truly appreciate your words of encouragement. I think you must be one strong and brave lady to have toughed out this crowd all by yourself for so long! 

I can, honestly, say that it hasn't always been easy on TAM, nor would I expect it to be. But, it has been very helpful, and even now, while B1 and I are still in the very early stages of our reconciliation, this same tough crowd has encouraged both of us, inspired us, lifted our spirits and truly helped us feel like we aren't navigating this alone. There are certain usernames on these threads that literally haunted me in my nightmares two months ago and I have now come to feel a great deal of respect and affection for those same individuals.

I think B1 and I will be sticking around here for the long haul! 

Take Care,
EI


----------



## Badblood

Reconciliation= return to honesty


----------



## Badblood

AffairCare is a very helpful voice for keeping threads on track.


----------



## SomedayDig

Ya know Badblood, you're very passive aggressive with your little comments sometimes man. Why couldn't you just leave your 5:34 (the time I show) comment as your only one? Instead, you just HAVE to find a point and not let go. Threads are and SHOULD be somewhat fluid. Otherwise they would become stale. 

Then again, rubbing people's noses in this stuff can be fun. I see the allure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

You know what, Somedaydig, I don't care if you like my comments or not. And I don't particularly like you. How's that for direct? I've tried , very diligently to not comment on your or Regret's posts and the only time I've done so is once, to defend TAM, when you called it stupid. Otherwise, I won't comment on you or your wife's posts at all. There is an Ignore feature, if you don't like what I say, use it.


----------



## Badblood

Sorry for the T/J, B1. I won't do it again.


----------



## SomedayDig

Read posts 208 and 225.

I can tell you don't "like" me. That's fine, but to be passive aggressive with your feelings isn't becoming in a thread. This thread about reconciliation has been fluid. If you think anyone is going to stick to a topic...in a forum...with thousands of people around - that'd be delusional thinking.

One of the things I think about when contemplating reconciliation is that often we don't look inwards. We tend to do everything by pushing outwards. That is something that mires down the move forward because we tend to think THEY have to do something about our feelings instead of what WE should be thinking about.

Looking inside, as a BS, I see that I wasn't perfect in Regret's and my marriage. Did that cause her affair? Absolutely not. But did I do things before the affair that contributed to our lack of communication? Absolutely. That doesn't excuse her actions. It simply stands out to me as something I did wrong in the beginning of our mess.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I do think that sometimes we emphasize the point so much that the WS has to take blame for the affair and do the heavy lifting that often it can be interpreted that the BS shouldn't have to work on any problems in the marriage, which would be a very dangerous assumption to make. I've said this a million times, dealing with infidelity should be treated like triage. Unless health is a concern (like addiction for example), the infidelity should be treated first and once there are indicators that the WS is on a path of no contact, transparency, and remorse then you can start dealing with problems in the marriage that led up to the affair. 

Personally, I had things to work on my end that were clearly my fault in making my wife feel unloved or neglected and I put effort into that, had I not I doubt our R would've have worked. You have to give some carrot along with the stick, all stick and you just build resentment.


----------



## Badblood

AR, I agree, but sometimes, such as in my case, our marriage was in pretty good shape, as far as I knew. Her abuse issues were carefully kept secret by her and her family. I could not fix or help fix her issues, if I didn't know what they were. My point is that sometimes the WS decision to cheat has nothing to do with the marriage or BS, per se, but is a character issue of the WS. This makes it twice as hard to R, IMO. I mean, I never knew about this crap, until after I decided to D, and that forced her to open up, and tell me about it. There are many, many variables to R, but the only necessary constant is honesty. If you don't have that , you might as well punt.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Badblood said:


> AR, I agree, but sometimes, such as in my case, our marriage was in pretty good shape, as far as I knew. Her abuse issues were carefully kept secret by her and her family. I could not fix or help fix her issues, if I didn't know what they were. My point is that sometimes the WS decision to cheat has nothing to do with the marriage or BS, per se, but is a character issue of the WS. This makes it twice as hard to R, IMO. I mean, I never knew about this crap, until after I decided to D, and that forced her to open up, and tell me about it. There are many, many variables to R, but the only necessary constant is honesty. If you don't have that , you might as well punt.


Hey I get that, and on the flip side sometimes marriages aren't "fixable" or were too far gone even before the affair that R attempts just won't work. And I never made claims that the marriage always has to have serious problems (but there are always issues no matter what in any relationship) for there to be infidelity. Certainly was the case for me, my marriage was a bit blah but not in peril.


----------



## Badblood

Yep, I agree. That is another set of variables for anyone choosing to R, to take into account. How many times on TAM will some Distraught BS use this as an excuse for R, rather than attach blame to the WS. They will wrack their brains trying to see what else they could have done, to stop their WS from cheating. When sometimes it isn't their issue, at all. All EMA's are caused by some kind of issues, sometimes these issues are the WS's alone and sometimes they are joint issues, and I think that the chances of R are influenced by which type of issues the R is facing.


----------



## Badblood

This is why I've always stressed self-improvement (by both parties) as being necessary to any R


----------



## Badblood

This is past history, of course, but if my Ex-wife had opened up to me about her abuse, had come to me, instead of listening to her family who believed in secrecy, I would still be married, and the affair would likely not have take place. I am pretty certain of this. After all, I was totally supportive of her after her breakdown and suicide attempt, so why would I not support her in dealing with her internal demons? I think that secrecy has destroyed more marriages than any other single cause.


----------



## Regret214

Badblood said:


> Yep, I agree. That is another set of variables for anyone choosing to R, to take into account. How many times on TAM will some Distraught BS use this as an excuse for R, rather than attach blame to the WS. They will wrack their brains trying to see what else they could have done, to stop their WS from cheating. When sometimes it isn't their issue, at all. All EMA's are caused by some kind of issues, sometimes these issues are the WS's alone and sometimes they are joint issues, and I think that the chances of R are influenced by which type of issues the R is facing.


There were so many times that Dig questioned himself and wondered what he could have done differently to have prevented my A. It was a fruitless search as the issues were not about him, they were about ME. Although initially, I did place blame on him, but quickly understood through self reflection that I created a false state of our marriage. Once I recognized this, I reassured him that it was not anything he did or didn't do. Sure, there are things that we BOTH have needed to work on, but in no way was he responsible for my choices.

R has been a very educational process. With honesty we can move forward.


----------



## B1

Almostrecovered said:


> Hey I get that, and on the flip side sometimes marriages aren't "fixable" or were too far gone even before the affair that R attempts just won't work. And I never made claims that the marriage always has to have serious problems (but there are always issues no matter what in any relationship) for there to be infidelity. Certainly was the case for me, my marriage was a bit blah but not in peril.


My marriage was in peril. It was, or so we thought, over with. I'm only saying this so others may see that a totaly disconnected couple like EI and myself can re-connect, it can be done. 
Our counselor and EI considered us "to far gone". 
True, we are not there yet, but we are certainly on the road to a happy and successful R.

Reconciliation started with me, she was done done. I said I think I want to work this out. Then she *reluctantly *got on board, the next couple of weeks were the toughest ever, hurt,anger,a WS's nasty defensive posture, being blamed for everything etc. That was tough, not even sure how I got through all that. 

She finally came around, but I had to love her through it all, she was deep in the A fog at first and it was a fight every day to just to survive this. Now she is loving me through it all, my pain, my hurt, my anger, she is just loving me through it.

Now were both in it for the long haul, and even with the hurt, I am enjoying this ride much more than the previouse one.


----------



## Harken Banks

Almostrecovered said:


> dealing with infidelity should be treated like triage.


Exactly. It's like the patient is wheeled into the emergency room with massive hemorrhaging and high blood pressure. And each time a patient presents this way, AC wants to sidle up to the gurney and lecture about changes in diet.

No offense AC. I may be reading your posts wrong, but that is how it seems and as you have seen it pisses me off a bit. I know your heart is in the right place and of course the long term issues have to addressed if the patient is to return to health. But the immediate issue is survival.


----------



## Regret214

Once the WS allows the fog to lift, and they can be honest with themselves and the BS, R is possible...IMHO, every time.


----------



## Badblood

Harken Banks said:


> Exactly. It's like the patient is wheeled into the emergency room with massive hemorrhaging and high blood pressure. And each time a patient presents this way, AC wants to sidle up to the gurney and lecture about changes in diet.
> 
> No offense AC. I may be reading your posts wrong, but that is how it seems and as you have seen it pisses me off a bit. I know your heart is in the right place and of course the long term issues have to addressed if the patient is to return to health. But the immediate issue is survival.


I agree with AR's analogy. But I would ask you, Harken, survival of what or who? Isn't triage choosing which patient requires the most urgent care? My point is that I feel that the individuals are more important than their bad marriage. The marriage will survive or it won't but the people in it need the care , the most.


----------



## Badblood

BTW, I think you are wrong about AC.


----------



## Harken Banks

Badblood said:


> I agree with AR's analogy. But I would ask you, Harken, survival of what or who? Isn't triage choosing which patient requires the most urgent care? My point is that I feel that the individuals are more important than their bad marriage. The marriage will survive or it won't but the people in it need the care , the most.


Triage is appropriate prioritization.


----------



## Harken Banks

Badblood said:


> BTW, I think you are wrong about AC.


Maybe so. I'll try to keep an open mind.


----------



## Almostrecovered

AC= AffairCare?

I usually agree with most of her points, which post is getting you upset?


----------



## Badblood

Almostrecovered said:


> AC= AffairCare?
> 
> I usually agree with most of her points, which post is getting you upset?


HuH? I thought that Affaircare was a couple?


----------



## Almostrecovered

Badblood said:


> HuH? I thought that Affaircare was a couple?



well, she posts a lot more than he does, so I always use "she"


----------



## Badblood

Harken Banks said:


> Triage is appropriate prioritization.


Yeah, that's what I thought, too.


----------



## Badblood

Sh*t yes, I'm always trying to find out if it's him or her who is posting.


----------



## Harken Banks

Re-reading, AC's post in this thread is thoughtful and appropriate. I agree with it in the generic. My first read was colored by my disagreement with some of her comments on my own thread. Apparently, I am one of those people who "still has a little personal growing to do."


----------



## Regret214

Harken Banks said:


> Re-reading, AC's post in this thread is thoughtful and appropriate. I agree with it in the generic. My first read was colored by my disagreement with some of her comments on my own thread. Apparently, I am one of those people who "still has a little personal growing to do."


Who doesn't???? If we remain stagnant as the world inevitably changes around us, we'll find ourselves left behind.


----------



## Badblood

INside growth ...good, outside growth....bad.


----------



## Regret214

Badblood said:


> INside growth ...good, outside growth....bad.


Agreed!


----------



## EI

I could have edited the above post, but I left it there just for fun. Apparently I'm not smart enough to post with a Smart Phone!  (Just to be clear, I'm not looking for feedback on that self-assessment!)

I have a question for anyone/everyone who cares to answer. I'm curious, what do you think is the average age (range) of the members who post on TAM, particularly those posting in CWI. No one needs to give their own age if they don't wish to. B1 and I are 47 and 48, respectively. I would guess that it would be somewhere between mid-30's to mid 40's???

Also, from all of the statistics that are readily available online, in books, etc., there is a greater percentage of men who are unfaithful to their wives than women who are unfaithful to their husbands. But, here, on TAM there appears to to an overwhelmingly large number of WW's in comparison to WH's. Is this because the numbers are beginning to be more evenly matched in real life or is there a certain "type" of individual who posts on this type of message board? There are many betrayed spouses of both genders who post on TAM, but typically, more wayward wives than wayward husbands are posting here. There are some former wayward husbands who come here to share their own stories of reconciliation or divorce, but there are very few wayward husbands who are currently coping with infidelity. In fact, I can't think of one. But, I haven't had my caffeine this morning, yet, so maybe I'm just in a fog..... you know, a different kind of fog! 

Any thoughts or theories on this guys?


----------



## SomedayDig

EI, I don't mind giving my age. I'm between 43 and 45 

As for the board specifics, I almost wonder...and I'm taking a huge non-scientific leap here...if more men come here to post about WW's because they usually don't have the support group in their real lives OR that they don't want to divulge the horrible truth that their wife had an affair.

I'm kind of lucky in that I have both. I have 2 guys I can call on any day and let crap off my chest and I've got this place. I would not doubt one bit that most guys don't have that or if they do, they are under utilized.

As for your 2 "empty" posts above...I'll leave my comments with the inner voice.

But be careful cuz that inner voice has been known to say crap at the most inopportune times!!


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## Regret214

I am 42...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

Empty Inside said:


> I'm curious, what do you think is the average age (range) of the members who post on TAM, particularly those posting in CWI. No one needs to give their own age if they don't wish to. B1 and I are 47 and 48, respectively. I would guess that it would be somewhere between mid-30's to mid 40's???


I am 48, my hubby is 44. My guess is that your guess is fairly accurate 



Empty Inside said:


> Also, from all of the statistics that are readily available online, in books, etc., there is a greater percentage of men who are unfaithful to their wives than women who are unfaithful to their husbands. But, here, on TAM there appears to to an overwhelmingly large number of WW's in comparison to WH's. Is this because the numbers are beginning to be more evenly matched in real life or is there a certain "type" of individual who posts on this type of message board? There are many betrayed spouses of both genders who post on TAM, but typically, more wayward wives than wayward husbands are posting here.


I think the numbers ARE becoming more evenly matched, but also I think a woman who cheated and wants to save her marriage is more likely to turn to a board like this than a guy who cheated. And that guys who have been cheated on come here because it's anonymous and they don't want their friends and family to know what their wife did.


----------



## AMU

EI - Harken and I are both 44 and I agree, in terms of those posting, I have yet to see a WH. However, I have only been reading this site for a month, so my perspective is limited.


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## Hope1964

I know there are some WH's on here, I just can't think of their names. I am bad with names - AR would know.


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> As for your 2 "empty" posts above...I'll leave my comments with the inner voice.
> 
> But be careful cuz that inner voice has been known to say crap at the most inopportune times!!



Now, I am going to fight the urge to delete my 2 "empty" posts leaving only your comments regarding them and something about you and your *"inner voices"* that say crap things. Cue the Twilight Zone music........ LOL :rofl:


----------



## EI

Hope1964 said:


> I think the numbers ARE becoming more evenly matched, but also I think a woman who cheated and wants to save her marriage is more likely to turn to a board like this than a guy who cheated. And that guys who have been cheated on come here because it's anonymous and they don't want their friends and family to know what their wife did.



I've been thinking along the same lines, but I was wondering what everyone thought about it.


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## Almostrecovered

from a while ago

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/41320-cwi-census-part-v-how-old-time-affair.html


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## CantSitStill

I'm 41 and Calvin is 44, I do know of one WH that used to post on TAM but haven't seen him in a while. Is Sigma still around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

alas, siggie is gone, I miss him and his input


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## iheartlife

Almostrecovered said:


> I do think that sometimes we emphasize the point so much that the WS has to take blame for the affair and do the heavy lifting that often it can be interpreted that the BS shouldn't have to work on any problems in the marriage, which would be a very dangerous assumption to make. I've said this a million times, dealing with infidelity should be treated like triage. Unless health is a concern (like addiction for example), the infidelity should be treated first and once there are indicators that the WS is on a path of no contact, transparency, and remorse then you can start dealing with problems in the marriage that led up to the affair.
> 
> Personally, I had things to work on my end that were clearly my fault in making my wife feel unloved or neglected and I put effort into that, had I not I doubt our R would've have worked. You have to give some carrot along with the stick, all stick and you just build resentment.


I agree completely, but I also agree with badblood that there are cases where the cheater is so f*cked up that they are 100% the problem. No loyal spouse is perfect, but some cheaters cheat because they _deeply_ hate themselves (on one end) or because they're _deeply_ full of themselves (on the other). The first is going to self-immolate to prove how rotten they are, and the second wouldn't recognize empathy if it whupped them upside the head.

The two WSs on the boards who come to mind are Entropy3000 and Sigma, who I also miss. Sigma had a LOT of insight to share and Entropy3000 is brutally honest.

I am 45, but there are lots of people older and younger. The age spread is pretty wide.


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## B1

SomedayDig said:


> EI, I don't mind giving my age. I'm between 43 and 45
> 
> As for the board specifics, I almost wonder...and I'm taking a huge non-scientific leap here...if more men come here to post about WW's because they usually don't have the support group in their real lives OR that they don't want to divulge the horrible truth that their wife had an affair.
> 
> I'm kind of lucky in that I have both. I have 2 guys I can call on any day and let crap off my chest and I've got this place. I would not doubt one bit that most guys don't have that or if they do, they are under utilized.
> 
> As for your 2 "empty" posts above...I'll leave my comments with the inner voice.
> 
> But be careful cuz that inner voice has been known to say crap at the most inopportune times!!


You are correct in my case Dig, no real support group for me  other than here and my counselor. You are lucky to have that. I did tell my family but never really utilzed them for support. 

Wow everyone is in there 40's? an interesting stat.


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I'm 41 and Calvin is 44, I do know of one WH that used to post on TAM but haven't seen him in a while. Is Sigma still around?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was born on Feb.29 so I'm only 11.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

33 years young.


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## iheartlife

calvin said:


> I was born on Feb.29 so I'm only 11.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For shame, CSS, what a cradle robber! :rofl:


----------



## CantSitStill

iheartlife said:


> For shame, CSS, what a cradle robber! :rofl:


oh boy 11 yrs old, he needs to do what I say..respect your elders lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> I'm kind of lucky in that I have both. I have 2 guys I can call on any day and let crap off my chest and I've got this place. I would not doubt one bit that most guys don't have that or if they do, they are under utilized.


Same. 2 best friends have carried me through this. They call me if they haven't heard in 12 hours. I haven't paid a bar or lunch tab in months. That speaks either to what a wreck I am or what good friends they are.


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## Badblood

iheartlife said:


> I agree completely, but I also agree with badblood that there are cases where the cheater is so f*cked up that they are 100% the problem. No loyal spouse is perfect, but some cheaters cheat because they _deeply_ hate themselves (on one end) or because they're _deeply_ full of themselves (on the other). The first is going to self-immolate to prove how rotten they are, and the second wouldn't recognize empathy if it whupped them upside the head.
> 
> The two WSs on the boards who come to mind are Entropy3000 and Sigma, who I also miss. Sigma had a LOT of insight to share and Entropy3000 is brutally honest.
> 
> I am 45, but there are lots of people older and younger. The age spread is pretty wide.


What is interesting about this is that the more desperate a BS is to R, the more likely he/she will be to excuse, and even to accept part of the blame for the A. It seems like it is easier to wrap our minds around the concept of an affair, if there is something, anything that WE did that helped cause it. Because if WE, as BS's, helped to CAUSE the affair, then it's logical that we also can do something that will stop the affair and bring our WS back to us, and make it all better. I wonder how many BS's would reconcile, if they knew beyond doubt that ALL of the causes of the affair were of their WS's making and that they bore none of the blame for whatever conditions lead up to it (the affair). BTW I am as guilty of trying to minimize my ex-wife's conduct as anyone, and , at first , she was perfectly willing to let me shoulder some of the blame, as it lessened her guilt feelings. It was only after I found out about her issues that I realized that there was absolutely nothing I could have done differently, and that I bore NONE of the blame for her A. She was a very damaged individual, who hid the damage with the help of her family. Bunch of devious perverted motherf**kers.


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## Hope1964

I must be weird because the second I found out I was LIVID. I had no doubts about what *I* did, it was all on him right from the start.

I also had NO intention of reconciling.


----------



## iheartlife

I totally agree with both of you (badblood and Hope) and I see the same thing in certain other loyal spouses.

The essence of a healthy reconciliation is the total cold certainty that you will walk away. You deserve love, you deserve a happy marriage, you deserve it! And I say this as someone who was an AWFUL wife and if ever someone "deserved" to be cheated on I was it. But for reasons I can't explain, I've always been able to separate my emotional abuse (it really was abusive) from his cheating. Each thing stems from inside us, our OWN problems, and neither one of us made the other person be that way.

Cheating is just another form of emotional abuse. People who would walk away and never look back over verbal or physical abuse aren't able to see cheating through that same lens. I really have no idea why. But much like the_guy, I ended my abuse, and he ended his. For some odd reason, the marriage got a whole lot better after that.

What I don't understand is why someone would doubt that our marriage is now better than ever. If we were both capable of mistreating each other so much, and then stopping it because we fundamentally changed, it makes no sense to say that we were better people BEFORE all this went down. (???)

I maintain that people who don't believe the marriage could be better already felt they'd hit the peak and with the affair it was all downhill from there. I'd feel the same, if that were me, but it isn't, and....yep, gonna say it again...and so I don't


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> It was only after I found out about her issues that I realized that there was absolutely nothing I could have done differently, and that I bore NONE of the blame for her A. She was a very damaged individual, who hid the damage with the help of her family. Bunch of devious perverted motherf**kers.


You had it rough, BB, but I honestly believe that your situation is more the exception than the rule. I KNOW, now, that choosing to have an affair is ALWAYS wrong and can NEVER be justified. But, I have to believe that in most cases (although this is only my opinion) that most people would not choose to be unfaithful unless there were significant problems in the marriage. I know it happens.... because I read the stories here, where the BS was completely blind-sided and had no idea that their spouse was so unhappy. And, the BS, themselves, thought that the marriage was in fact, stable and even happy.

Now, that B1 and I are going through this incredibly painful journey of reconciliation my heart just feels broken. Most days, I am happy. I am just so excited that B1 and I are connecting, not just the way we used to, but much more so than we ever did in the past. I tend to be an optimistic person and don't enjoy dwelling in the negative because, well, life is short and every moment wasted being unhappy is a moment that we will never get back. But, I want to believe that there is some magic formula, some way to "affair-proof" marriages. There are countless numbers of books and online websites dedicated to "affair-proofing" your marriage. Yet, how can anyone affair proof their marriage if they have no idea that there is a problem? Now, I guess I'm just rambling.... 

I'm kind of blah today. I went shopping with our daughter and grandson (still getting my baby boy, who is 17, ready to go back-to-school.... this is our last first day of school. He is a senior this year.... very bittersweet...  ) Anytime spent with our precious 11 month old grandson is "good time," but I was overwhelmed with sadness today. As much as I loved being with our daughter and our grandson, I just wanted to come home. I wanted B1 to get home from work. I love it in the evenings when he and I just sit and talk and cuddle and he holds me.... and sometimes we both cry.... I wonder if this is what reconciliation is...... extreme happiness that you are putting the broken pieces of your marriage back together, tinged with extreme sadness and regret that it ever fell apart??? :'( Will there ever be a day when the happiness far surpasses the hurt and the hurt is just a distant memory?


----------



## EI

iheartlife said:


> I totally agree with both of you (badblood and Hope) and I see the same thing in certain other loyal spouses.
> 
> The essence of a healthy reconciliation is the total cold certainty that you will walk away. You deserve love, you deserve a happy marriage, you deserve it! And I say this as someone who was an AWFUL wife and if ever someone "deserved" to be cheated on I was it. But for reasons I can't explain, I've always been able to separate my emotional abuse (it really was abusive) from his cheating. Each thing stems from inside us, our OWN problems, and neither one of us made the other person be that way.
> 
> Cheating is just another form of emotional abuse. People who would walk away and never look back over verbal or physical abuse aren't able to see cheating through that same lens. I really have no idea why. But much like the_guy, I ended my abuse, and he ended his. For some odd reason, the marriage got a whole lot better after that.
> 
> What I don't understand is why someone would doubt that our marriage is now better than ever. If we were both capable of mistreating each other so much, and then stopping it because we fundamentally changed, it makes no sense to say that we were better people BEFORE all this went down. (???)
> 
> I maintain that people who don't believe the marriage could be better already felt they'd hit the peak and with the affair it was all downhill from there. I'd feel the same, if that were me, but it isn't, and....yep, gonna say it again...and so I don't


I admire your honesty and I find it inspiring. Thank you so much for sharing your story. There are those who will never understand.... and they don't have to. I think everyone has a desire to be validated and understood, but being validated and understood by anonymous people on a message board isn't fundamental to my happiness and emotional well-being. For me, being validated, understood and loved by B1 is!


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## Wazza

Empty Inside said:


> I know it happens.... because I read the stories here, where the BS was completely blind-sided and had no idea that their spouse was so unhappy. And, the BS, themselves, thought that the marriage was in fact, stable and even happy.
> 
> Now, that B1 and I are going through this incredibly painful journey of reconciliation my heart just feels broken. Most days, I am happy. I am just so excited that B1 and I are connecting, not just the way we used to, but much more so than we ever did in the past. I tend to be an optimistic person and don't enjoy dwelling in the negative because, well, life is short and every moment wasted being unhappy is a moment that we will never get back. But, I want to believe that there is some magic formula, some way to "affair-proof" marriages. There are countless numbers of books and online websites dedicated to "affair-proofing" your marriage. Yet, how can anyone affair proof their marriage if they have no idea that there is a problem? Now, I guess I'm just rambling....


No you're not rambling, you are spot on, you just described what happened to my wife and I. 

My wife is probably a lot like you, she wants to dwell on positives. She shuts out negatives. Sometimes that's a great attribute, but the trouble is she never calls for help when she's drowning, and she avoids conflict too much. That has been the catalyst for various crises in her life, including the affair.

I feel like I know what can happen now and I am getting better at spotting it. That's all I can do, and it's not a guarantee.



Empty Inside said:


> I wonder if this is what reconciliation is...... extreme happiness that you are putting the broken pieces of your marriage back together, tinged with extreme sadness and regret that it ever fell apart??? :'( Will there ever be a day when the happiness far surpasses the hurt and the hurt is just a distant memory?


That's how I see it. For me the happiness surpasses the hurt, but the hurt hasn't gone away. I think nowadays it hurts my wife more than me, and by the way, one of her responses to guilt is to try harder to "do the right thing" to make it up to me. The trouble is that this can feed into her failing of not calling for help. 

The biggest warning sign is when she is totally positive, without any expression of negative emotions. Because that means she is dealing with some big negative and trying not to vent it. And you just know that if it blows IT'S GONNA BLOW BIG!!!!!!!!!!


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## Badblood

Wazza said:


> No you're not rambling, you are spot on, you just described what happened to my wife and I.
> 
> My wife is probably a lot like you, she wants to dwell on positives. She shuts out negatives. Sometimes that's a great attribute, but the trouble is she never calls for help when she's drowning, and she avoids conflict too much. That has been the catalyst for various crises in her life, including the affair.
> 
> I feel like I know what can happen now and I am getting better at spotting it. That's all I can do, and it's not a guarantee.
> 
> 
> 
> That's how I see it. For me the happiness surpasses the hurt, but the hurt hasn't gone away. I think nowadays it hurts my wife more than me, and by the way, one of her responses to guilt is to try harder to "do the right thing" to make it up to me. The trouble is that this can feed into her failing of not calling for help.
> 
> The biggest warning sign is when she is totally positive, without any expression of negative emotions. Because that means she is dealing with some big negative and trying not to vent it. And you just know that if it blows IT'S GONNA BLOW BIG!!!!!!!!!!


Seems to me that you have some serious communication issues, going on here. And all BS know that one of the major issues facing R is lack of communication. There is a very fine line betwen lack of communication and downright deception, Wazza, and if I were you I would address this issue head-on. because it will only get worse.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Seems to me that you have some serious communication issues, going on here. And all BS know that one of the major issues facing R is lack of communication. There is a very fine line betwen lack of communication and downright deception, Wazza, and if I were you I would address this issue head-on. because it will only get worse.


There is certainly an aspect of it that is a communication issue, but it's also about how she manages herself, not just how she presents to others. She feeds off positive energy and doesn't like to contemplate negatives. So she solve problems by ignoring them sometimes :scratchhead:

So there is no deception there, just a coping mechanism that I think is not terribly healthy.

I take the attitude that she is who she is, and I fell in love with her that way. I have no interest in remaking her, and I try instead to support her where I can. Our strengths and weaknesses seem to be pretty complementary.


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## Badblood

Wazza said:


> There is certainly an aspect of it that is a communication issue, but it's also about how she manages herself, not just how she presents to others. She feeds off positive energy and doesn't like to contemplate negatives. So she solve problems by ignoring them sometimes :scratchhead:
> 
> So there is no deception there, just a coping mechanism that I think is not terribly healthy.
> 
> I take the attitude that she is who she is, and I fell in love with her that way. I have no interest in remaking her, and I try instead to support her where I can. Our strengths and weaknesses seem to be pretty complementary.


Dude, what you do is what you do, and it's your party. All I am saying is be aware of it and how quickly it can cross the line from coping mechanism to deception. So, she is haveing negative thoughts and internalizes them, rationalizing her actions by thinking that the negatives are her problems and she shouldn't burden you with them. Then she has feelings for somebody else, and does the same thing. See where I'm going with this? The potential for deception with such a person is greater than if you just got to the bottom of the communication issue and settled it.


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## Badblood

Wazza, this is an example of how it is better, sometimes, to be pro-active than accepting. For me, this would be an enormous red flag.


----------



## B1

It means looking back to a time before the A and addressing problems that were in the marriage then. More then likely there were issues, known or unknown by both spouses. Those have to be addressed also.

A R isn't just working on the A, it's about addressing all the bad things that were in the marriage. Now you may not be able to fix them all but you can at least address them, put them on the table, make them known.
and for heavens sake get into MC and IC.

R is also about working on yourself! Get IC, get healthy, get happy with you. This can be hard because the whole Affair thing can be all consuming. You tend to focus on just the A and nothing else.


----------



## EI

I think you choose to reconcile when you know, with the totality of all of your life's experiences, together, combined, the good, the bad and everything else in between, that you would be happier spending the rest of your life together than apart. That's actually a very simplistic way of looking at it, but it is also a very honest and heartfelt way of looking at it, too. 

I love you, B1! Spending my life with you makes me happy.... I want you to be happy, too! <3


----------



## seasalt

Empty Inside,

When, in the past, my children asked me how I knew I loved my wife I told them about a huge fight we had shortly before our engagement. We parted that night and both went home and didn't speak for a number of days. It was during that time that I realized that I was more miserable without her than when I was in her presence. It clicked that having her in my life was infinately better than not.

I've loved and been faithful to her for the past forty years and know that I've been loved by her in the same way no matter the trials we have had (and they have been many).

I suppose you can come to the same realization about the need for a person to be in your life after an infidelity in order to have a successful reconcilliation.


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> It means looking back to a time before the A and addressing problems that were in the marriage then. More then likely there were issues, known or unknown by both spouses. Those have to be addressed also.
> 
> *A R isn't just working on the A, it's about addressing all the bad things that were in the marriage.* Now you may not be able to fix them all but you can at least address them, put them on the table, make them known.
> and for heavens sake get into MC and IC.
> 
> R is also about working on yourself! Get IC, get healthy, get happy with you. This can be hard because the whole Affair thing can be all consuming. You tend to focus on just the A and nothing else.


I think you touched on such a major issue there B1. How often do we talk about the toll of daily married life? Do we do that enough? Do we talk about how I don't feel like emptying the cat litter cuz I've done it for 8 years straight? Probably not enough. You make an excellent point.

By the way the cat litter emptying for me stopped in March. The litter box is in the basement. Near the room that they f'd in. I don't go down there much.


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> I think you touched on such a major issue there B1. How often do we talk about the toll of daily married life? Do we do that enough? *Do we talk about how I don't feel like emptying the cat litter cuz I've done it for 8 years straight?* Probably not enough. You make an excellent point.
> 
> By the way the cat litter emptying for me stopped in March. The litter box is in the basement. Near the room that they f'd in. I don't go down there much.


Now look what you have gone and done, I have never, not one time, emptied the cat litter. Now we will have to address that one I guess 

If I have to start doing that, I will just get rid of the source 

Sorry for the reason you don't do it anymore


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## CantSitStill

I somtimes think we have to put up with some of those little things. I mean we cannot make our spouse perfect so lets accept some of their quirky flaws..Of course if it's something that really really affects you then yes it may be something that they may have to change.. But the little annoying habits are just silly to fight over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Dude, what you do is what you do, and it's your party. All I am saying is be aware of it and how quickly it can cross the line from coping mechanism to deception. So, she is haveing negative thoughts and internalizes them, rationalizing her actions by thinking that the negatives are her problems and she shouldn't burden you with them. Then she has feelings for somebody else, and does the same thing. See where I'm going with this? The potential for deception with such a person is greater than if you just got to the bottom of the communication issue and settled it.


I see exactly where you are going because that is exactly what happened. 

And it is something I work on, but this is real life. The communication issue you talk about is a by product of a deeper issue within her, and she doesn't agree with you and I about the extent of danger.

I try to work with her on being more open. I work on me doing a better job of creating an environmentand relationship where she can be more open. And I keep an eye out for problems so I can nip them in the bud.


----------



## Affaircare

Wazza said:


> My wife is probably a lot like you, she wants to dwell on positives. She shuts out negatives. Sometimes that's a great attribute, but the trouble is she never calls for help when she's drowning, and she avoids conflict too much. That has been the catalyst for various crises in her life, including the affair.


You know, I was/am a bit like that as well....dwelling on the positives and avoiding the negatives. I wonder if we may not be "onto something" here? :scratchhead: Might be worth investigating! 

Anyway I know the biggest thing I learned from all this was how to tell when it's just a momentary flash of anger or "negative" and when it's actually something that is no okay with me. I'll give an example.

My Dear Hubby is not very good at cleaning up after himself in the kitchen or in cleaning the kitchen in general. Now, he is a WIZARD when it comes to making yummy, delicious meals! But afterward, the kitchen looks like a mini-tornado struck and dishes don't usually make it to the sink but are left all over the counters. When I walk into the kitchen and see dishes, tops of peppers, old tomato, dirty spatulas and the pans all greasy and gross...WITH all the dishes on the counter...I get a momentary flash of anger because he is a grown man for crying out loud! It doesn't have to be left like that! But then I remember that I didn't cook the meal, and I did have the pleasure of eating it and enjoying it with him and relaxing while he was cooking. Furthermore, we have a little understanding that his natural talents are in the cooking department and my natural talents really do lie in tidying up! (Wierd, huh? But I'm serious--I can do it in like 2 minutes and it looks and smells clean!) So I do not talk to him about it--I recognize this is the agreement I made voluntarily and I honor the agreement happily. 

On the other hand, if I see he has looked at porn on his computer, this is not something we have agreed to, he didn't do it in front of me, we did not discuss it, and it is not okay with me. I mean... it would be okay if we talked about it and said here's what we will and will not do and then looked together...but by doing it and sneaking that's the part that really is not okay. Sooo...in that instance I would recognize it's not just a momentary "negative" and it is something that is NOT okay with me and something I need to address while it is small. So then I'd do the W-T-F-S that I recommend to everyone ["When you... I think... I feel... So I would like to request..."] and that way I can address it and be transparent AND I am not avoiding it. I finally figured out that avoiding it is actually lying because my Dear Hubby is not seeing what I really think and feel. AND I also finally figured out that I have an obligation to share myself--everything, even the not-so-good stuff--with him.


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## CantSitStill

this has been a very interesting thread 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Affaircare said:


> l
> I finally figured out that avoiding it is actually lying because my Dear Hubby is not seeing what I really think and feel. AND I also finally figured out that I have an obligation to share myself--everything, even the not-so-good stuff--with him.


that's exactly what I think we are working through as a couple.

I love her, warts and all. Not to mention that I have one or two warts of my own.


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## CantSitStill

Oh me too...I used to hold everything in and not tell my husband when something bothered me and it made me resent him and have bad feelings tword him instead of just facing it and resolving issues with him. Now I must confront even when I'm afraid to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

betrayed1 said:


> Now look what you have gone and done, I have never, not one time, emptied the cat litter. Now we will have to address that one I guess
> 
> If I have to start doing that, I will just get rid of the source
> 
> Sorry for the reason you don't do it anymore



Babe, we need to talk..... it's about the litter box! It's true..... you have never ONCE emptied the cat's litter box..... 

And, OMG, don't even get me started about the doggie diapers.... you never change the dog's diapers, either! 

*Yes, we really do have an old incontinent dog who wears diapers. I've actually been changing diapers every day for over 22 years...... 

**And, and, and, what about the fact that I was pregnant 3 times in less than 5 years??? And, I was nursing babies for nearly 5 years in a 7 year window.... and, I was pregnant with our 3rd child and our 2nd child was still nursing????

_Soooooo, I was wondering, could you change the cat's litter box tomorrow??? :rofl:_ LOL

Jus' kiddin'..... I got it!


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow you have a dog in diapers?? That's gotta suck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Wow you have a dog in diapers?? That's gotta suck!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh...don't get me started, ok you did .. he has also bitten everyone including kids, kids friends and my wife, multiple times. He leaks like a bucket with a huge hole in it, i.e. that's why the diapers.
He has seizures and he escapes out of the back yard and runs off occasionally and will attempt to bite anyone he sees outside. He is severally warped in the head but...EI loves him so I let him live 

Funny thing about the dog though. On Dday I told EI to get out and take the leaking f'ing dog with her to the xOM's house, and I said "see how long he lets you stay then". No one in there right mind would take this dog in except EI. Thank God he only weighs about 12lbs. 

Needles to say he can be a sore subject with me, well and everyone except EI.


----------



## SomedayDig

OMG...you have to deal with a leaky dog.

Just when I think my situation is dire and I've got it bad :rofl:



I'm sorry, man. I just can't stop laughing.


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> he has also *bitten* everyone including kids, kids friends and my wife, multiple times.


Oh, B1, you know they're just little *love nips!*




betrayed1 said:


> He leaks like a bucket with a huge hole in it, i.e. that's why the diapers.
> He has seizures and he escapes out of the back yard and runs off occasionally and will attempt to bite anyone he sees outside. He is severally warped in the head but...EI loves him so I let him live


_ sigh.... true story_



betrayed1 said:


> Funny thing about the dog though. On Dday I told EI to get out and take the leaking f'ing dog with her to the xOM's house, and I said "see how long he lets you stay then". No one in there right mind would take this dog in except EI. Thank God he only weighs about 12lbs.
> 
> Needles to say he can be a sore subject with me, well and everyone except EI.


_Yes, I do love the mean little fur ball! Thank you for putting up with both of us! 
_


----------



## ReturnOfTheKitty

Couples going through R, brings tears to my eyes. Carry on you 
love birds.


----------



## EI

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> Couples going through R, brings tears to my eyes. Carry on you
> love birds.



Hmmm............. Incognito???


----------



## ReturnOfTheKitty

Anonymous


----------



## SomedayDig

I find it odd that ReturnoftheKitty is here after the litter box commentary...hmmmmm....


LOL


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I find it odd that ReturnoftheKitty is here after the litter box commentary...hmmmmm....
> 
> 
> LOL



LMAO :rofl:


----------



## B1

Anger and R...

I think when you're reconciling and you get angry, you need to, if possible, step back and analyze why you're angry. What is it that's REALLY EATING AT YOU. Dig deep, really try to find out what it is and address that, don't just spew four letter words and call your WS names, or say hurtful things, really try to work on the "WHY" you're angry. 

Last time I was angry I started out spewing four letter words and saying some harsh things but then I stopped myself and asked "why am I so angry" and it came to me, it was plain ol' insecurity. That's it. I was insecure about some things and it pi$$ed me off royally. I could have used Dig's punching bag then that's for sure. 

But once I got hold of why I was angry, I was able to calm down and then tell EI what the real problem was and we worked through that. We made progress that day, real progress. 

I will now go into what it was that made me angry and share how I broke out of it, it's not fun to do but I hope it helps someone who reads this.

I came into the kitchen with rage....and I started in on a common subject, her 2am night out with the OM. They had sex from 11:30 to 1:30 and that made me angry, very angry... I was loosing it angry.

I went from spewing venom to saying, EI...I'm hurting, you hurt me and you had sex for 2 hours...we NEVER did that and I feel less than, humiliated and incapable of pleasing you like that. 

I was insecure! we sat down and she explained it all, in great detail, it wasn't as bad as I thought, it wasn't for 2 hours straight. She went on to assure me she is more pleased in that area than ever before because she knows I love her, she knows she is secure and safe and that adds to sex more than I understand. She is VERY emotional and that plays a BIG part with her, because now I am emotional too.

She pointed out several things that were true and we, again, worked through this. It's not the amount of time we make love, it's the fact that we "make love." I am a far more passionate man than ever before, she helped me see that and she made it clear I am pleasing her more then she ever dreamed. It's true our sex life is through the roof, she is happy very happy with it, I know because, well, I just know . So I need to rest in that.


----------



## MattMatt

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> Anonymous


Remember! Keep those claws out of the furniture!


----------



## MattMatt

betrayed1 said:


> Anger and R...
> 
> I think when you're reconciling and you get angry, you need to, if possible, step back and analyze why you're angry. What is it that's REALLY EATING AT YOU. Dig deep, really try to find out what it is and address that, don't just spew four letter words and call your WS names, or say hurtful things, really try to work on the "WHY" you're angry.
> 
> Last time I was angry I started out spewing four letter words and saying some harsh things but then I stopped myself and asked "why am I so angry" and it came to me, it was plain ol' insecurity. That's it. I was insecure about some things and it pi$$ed me off royally. I could have used Dig's punching bag then that's for sure.
> 
> But once I got hold of why I was angry, I was able to calm down and then tell EI what the real problem was and we worked through that. We made progress that day, real progress.
> 
> I will now go into what it was that made me angry and share how I broke out of it, it's not fun to do but I hope it helps someone who reads this.
> 
> I came into the kitchen with rage....and I started in on a common subject, her 2am night out with the OM. They had sex from 11:30 to 1:30 and that made me angry, very angry... I was loosing it angry.
> 
> I went from spewing venom to saying, EI...I'm hurting, you hurt me and you had sex for 2 hours...we NEVER did that and I feel less than, humiliated and incapable of pleasing you like that.
> 
> I was insecure! we sat down and she explained it all, in great detail, it wasn't as bad as I thought, it wasn't for 2 hours straight. She went on to assure me she is more pleased in that area than ever before because she knows I love her, she knows she is secure and safe and that adds to sex more than I understand. She is VERY emotional and that plays a BIG part with her, because now I am emotional too.
> 
> She pointed out several things that were true and we, again, worked through this. It's not the amount of time we make love, it's the fact that we "make love." I am a far more passionate man than ever before, she helped me see that and she made it clear I am pleasing her more then she ever dreamed. It's true our sex life is through the roof, she is happy very happy with it, I know because, well, I just know . So I need to rest in that.


We actually probably hurt ourselves more than our spouse ever did, hey, B1?


----------



## ReturnOfTheKitty

I'm just content playing with my little ball of string for now


----------



## MattMatt

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> I'm just content playing with my little ball of string for now


Oops! Time our little cat was fed! BRB!


----------



## ReturnOfTheKitty

Don't bother *burrrp* .....I've jacked this thread, apologies.


----------



## Regret214

betrayed1 said:


> Oh...don't get me started, ok you did .. he has also bitten everyone including kids, kids friends and my wife, multiple times. He leaks like a bucket with a huge hole in it, i.e. that's why the diapers.
> He has seizures and he escapes out of the back yard and runs off occasionally and will attempt to bite anyone he sees outside. He is severally warped in the head but...EI loves him so I let him live
> 
> Funny thing about the dog though. On Dday I told EI to get out and take the leaking f'ing dog with her to the xOM's house, and I said "see how long he lets you stay then". No one in there right mind would take this dog in except EI. Thank God he only weighs about 12lbs.
> 
> Needles to say he can be a sore subject with me, well and everyone except EI.


OMG....I am laughing so freakin' hard!!!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## SomedayDig

B1...I totally understand your anger post above. For me, it seems like it came out of nowhere a couple weeks ago. Regret and I had been doing a lot of talking and sorting things out about her affair. It was still a time of a little digging for me. Some things, maybe as minute as they may seem, were extremely significant to me.

They just didn't add up. I needed to know. So I asked some questions. Regret answered but only after looking at the phone bill with me did the gravity of it really hit her.

She basically had to confront that the last night they were together, the night I caught her, that she was in that hotel for THREE hours.

That hit her like a ton of bricks because she, in essence, gaslighted herself. She had not admitted to herself that she took that much time out of OUR lives that night.

So, I went to a dark place that week. I don't really yell when I'm upset. Regret would tell you that. But I am venomous. That sucks to admit.

But...I needed to go there. 

I'm just glad I came back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

SomedayDig said:


> B1...I totally understand your anger post above. For me, it seems like it came out of nowhere a couple weeks ago. Regret and I had been doing a lot of talking and sorting things out about her affair. It was still a time of a little digging for me. Some things, maybe as minute as they may seem, were extremely significant to me.
> 
> They just didn't add up. I needed to know. So I asked some questions. Regret answered but only after looking at the phone bill with me did the gravity of it really hit her.
> 
> *She basically had to confront that the last night they were together, the night I caught her, that she was in that hotel for THREE hours.
> *
> That hit her like a ton of bricks because she, in essence, gaslighted herself. She had not admitted to herself that she took that much time out of OUR lives that night.
> 
> So, I went to a dark place that week. I don't really yell when I'm upset. Regret would tell you that. But I am venomous. That sucks to admit.
> 
> But...I needed to go there.
> 
> I'm just glad I came back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Not to dig up old arguments but she said it was plain boring vanilla sex with little conversations between them in her thread(or was it yours)? Or has she conceded more about it since then (in private).


----------



## Regret214

warlock07 said:


> Not to dig up old arguments but she said it was plain boring vanilla sex with little conversations between them in her thread(or was it yours)? Or has she conceded more about it since then (in private).


Warlock, there have been a lot of private conversations between Dig and I where I have provided much more detail and insight into my A. Not every detail has been revealed to TAM.


----------



## warlock07

Regret214 said:


> Warlock, there have been a lot of private conversations between Dig and I where I have provided much more detail and insight into my A. Not every detail has been revealed to TAM.



I did not mean to say that you need to reveal all the details here on TAM. I think Dig got pissed off and banned a couple of users at the end of the thread. Glad you had that discussion.


----------



## Regret214

warlock07 said:


> I did not mean to say that you need to reveal all the details here on TAM. I think Dig got pissed off and banned a couple of users at the end of the thread. Glad you had that discussion.


Oh, I know. I didn't think you were suggesting that. Dig was very angry, rightly so. A lot of the anger he had/has toward me unfortunately got misdirected to some users on TAM. He will admit to wanting to always protect me despite my A and stick up for himself, but in the privacy of our home, he has challenged me and we are at a level of communication now that we have never known before.


----------



## SomedayDig

Not that it matters, but the banning from that thread was when Regret was called a liar when she said she felt taken advantage of by the XOM But that's another thread and doesn't matter here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Regret214 said:


> Not every detail has been revealed to TAM.



Nor should they be...... TAM sees a very little of what actually goes on inside individual relationships. The personal details between a man and his wife are.... well, personal. TAM gets the Cliff's Notes version.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Not that it matters, but the banning from that thread was when Regret was called a liar when she said she felt taken advantage of by the XOM But that's another thread and doesn't matter here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please feel free to vent on our thread, anytime. Geeeez, I've left entire novellas on yours!  LOL


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> Nor should they be...... TAM sees a very little of what actually goes on inside individual relationships. The personal details between a man and his wife are.... well, personal. TAM gets the Cliff's Notes version.


tell me about your dog


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> tell me about your dog



You actually have quite a sense of humor, you know that? I remember the first time that you said something kind of semi-nice to me.... I just about fell out of my seat.  LOL


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> Please feel free to vent on our thread, anytime. Geeeez, I've left entire novellas on yours!  LOL


And I'm compiling them for a series!


----------



## joe kidd

Reconciliation is the hardest thing I have ever tried to do in my life. 
Hopefully it turns out to be worth the effort.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> And I'm compiling them for a series!



Oh no you're not..... I'm already in talks with producers. It's going to be called "The People of TAM!" I mean, who needs "50 Shades of Grey?" We've got a whole lot more shades of "something" going on here!  LOL I don't have to buy cheesy novels to read anymore..... I just log on......


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> Oh no you're not..... I'm already in talks with producers. It's going to be called "The People of TAM!" I mean, who needs "50 Shades of Grey?" We've got a whole lot more shades of "something" going on here!  LOL I don't have to buy cheesy novels to read anymore..... I just log on......


Can you talk to Regret then...the ball gag stuff is outta control!


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Reconciliation is the hardest thing I have ever tried to do in my life.
> Hopefully it turns out to be worth the effort.


I hope so, man. I really do.


----------



## calvin

I admire,Dig,Regret,B1 and EI's stories and comments on all the threads they have posted on here.
It gives me and CSS a lot more hope in our R.
Its a nice change of pace.
Anything is possible,thank you all for being brave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I admire,Dig,Regret,B1 and EI's stories and comments on all the threads they have posted on here.
> It gives me and CSS a lot more hope in our R.
> Its a nice change of pace.
> Anything is possible,thank you all for being brave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You guys have been at it longer than any of us have. To be honest, you and CSS were my inspirations from the very start. I like being able to watch a reconciliation unfold in real time with all of "the up and downs." I like how none of us paint a rosy picture and pretend that everyday is all joy and bliss. There are just as many days filled with anger and tears and doubts. But, we get up everyday and we keep doing what our hearts tell us that we have to do.... we have to keep trying because we love our spouses and we know that our life *IS* better having them by our side. This msg. board has been a tremendous blessing. Sometimes, because of the "advice" that we have been given and sometimes in spite of the "advice" we have been given. For every naysayer who says that reconciliation can't or shouldn't be done.... there are those who offer encouragement and support and wisdom because they've already been there, done that, and they're happy, they're in love and they can't imagine their life any other way. Honestly, the ones who help us the most are the ones who are in similar places in their journey, because you know they understand, they feel your pain, because it's their pain, too. And, when you see someone else "make it" one more day, then it inspires you to make it one more day. If we're having a bad day, but I see one of you guys having a really great day, it inspires me and give me hope. I tell B1 all of the time.... I can do just about *ANYTHING* with a little bit of hope. Take my hope away and I crumble.


----------



## SomedayDig

Thank you Calvin. From the bottom of my old goat heart.

Reconciliation will not happen until each person can do something somewhat unthinkable: Drop your ego.

It gets in the way of so much. It gets in the way of the WS giving the full truth. It gets in the way of the BS dealing with feelings about the betrayal.

Yes. We hurt. Each of us.

But we cannot allow that ego to hold back our love or stand in its way.

But that's just me. And I am a simple old goat.


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes we are a bit farther along but we are all going through the same thing which means we can all ecourage eachother. Beowulf an Morrigan is what always kept our spririts of reconciliation going..they both inspire us to keep on keepin on and never give up. I don't know how to explain it but I'd love to some day meet them in person and let them know how grateful I am..they had a huge part in saving our marriage and I miss them so (tears)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

No it's not a joy filled ride everyday. Keep on keeping on. 
Just last week Pidge and I were ready to give up and we have been at this "R" thing close to 2 years.


----------



## CantSitStill

ok so many typos and now for the 3rd time of editing it won't even let me so oh well so swell
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

By the way JK...I'm a big Soundgarden fan so I love your sig!


----------



## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> No it's not a joy filled ride everyday. Keep on keeping on.
> Just last week Pidge and I were ready to give up and we have been at this "R" thing close to 2 years.


Thought I saw a post that you were leaving TAM..maybe you can stick around to help others and with doing that it may help you guys.. I get the whole last week you thinking of leaving her because Calvin just asked me for a seperation just a few days ago..this rollercoaster is so crazy but I'll never give up.. I love Calvin to death
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Yes we are a bit farther along but we are all going through the same thing which means we can all ecourage eachother. Beowulf an Morrigan is what always kept our spririts of reconciliation going..they both inspire us to keep on keepin on and never give up. I don't know how to explain it but I'd love to some day meet them in person and let them know how grateful I am..they had a huge part in saving our marriage and I miss them so (tears)


I know what you mean! I have this desire to meet a few couples, here, and have dinner or something..... I'm just "social" like that. I think everybody is my friend.  B1 says that it would start off nice and then it would just be a bunch of men crying in their beer.......


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> I know what you mean! I have this desire to meet a few couples, here, and have dinner or something..... I'm just "social" like that. I think everybody is my friend.  B1 says that it would start off nice and then it would just be a bunch of men crying in their beer.......


I like beer 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

CantSitStill said:


> Thought I saw a post that you were leaving TAM..maybe you can stick around to help others and with doing that it may help you guys.. I get the whole last week you thinking of leaving her because Calvin just asked me for a seperation just a few days ago..this rollercoaster is so crazy but I'll never give up.. I love Calvin to death
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did for a bit. Had nothing constructive to say and was in a bad place.


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I like beer
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm a Margarita kind of gal, myself..... original, frozen, salt on the rim with a wedge of lime! You know what they say about Tequila??? It's true!


----------



## joe kidd

Empty Inside said:


> I know what you mean! I have this desire to meet a few couples, here, and have dinner or something..... I'm just "social" like that. I think everybody is my friend.  B1 says that it would start off nice and then it would just be a bunch of men crying in their beer.......


No crying in my beer....would be a waste of good beer.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> No crying in my beer....would be a waste of good beer.


That sounds completely reasonable to me! I never realized before your post, above, that you were married to Pidge.... Which one of you arrived on TAM first? How did the other one get onboard? I think the whole idea of "couples" posting together can be very therapeutic. It's like journaling, but it talks back to you. Sometimes that's very good and sometimes that's very bad!  LOL


----------



## joe kidd

Empty Inside said:


> That sounds completely reasonable to me! I never realized before your post, above, that you were married to Pidge.... Which one of you arrived on TAM first? How did the other one get onboard? I think the whole idea of "couples" posting together can be very therapeutic. It's like journaling, but it talks back to you. Sometimes that's very good and sometimes that's very bad!  LOL


She was here 1st. I found the place through her.


----------



## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> I did for a bit. Had nothing constructive to say and was in a bad place.


I can understand that and I gotta say sometimes reading posts on here makes it worse for both Calvin and I, it makes him trigger and makes me just wanna stay away but I always come back and have been somewhat sticking to only my few subscribed threads.. depends on my mood
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I think we learned more here than with counseling..I also truly believe this place saved our marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Ego,ego,ego...yes Dig. Stupid pride will hold you back,my ego can make me make some stupid decicions.
EI,yesss,LOVE has a lot to do with it.It's simple.
Love can drive people to do some extrordinary things,love motivates the hell out of a person.
I have said it a lot, doing R is the hardest thing I've ever done,deaths in the family were easier than this.Its incredible how much it hurts.
I have now seen the genuine pain that CSS has to go through also.
Her pain is real and its there.I refuse to argue who's pain is worse.Its pretty damn real on both sides.
To go into R,CSS and I have to lean on eacthother and have faith.God its so hard but after six months I can tell you without a doubt,it was the right decision for us.
I had the upper hand in a divorce if I chose to do so.
If We would have went that rout,I could have kept so much of the materialistic things but I would have lost everything that really matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> No crying in my beer....would be a waste of good beer.


Tear in my beer? Love Hank Williams.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

K, about the pain. I feel the BS has it much worse.
Its terrible,its hell.
A truely remorseful spouse does go through a lot of hurt tho,I know that.I've seen it first hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> You actually have quite a sense of humor, you know that? I remember the first time that you said something kind of semi-nice to me.... I just about fell out of my seat.  LOL


Was l so hateful? I try to keep perspective most of the times


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> I can understand that and I gotta say sometimes reading posts on here makes it worse for both Calvin and I, it makes him trigger and makes me just wanna stay away but I always come back and have been somewhat sticking to only my few subscribed threads.. depends on my mood
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, posts on here can make a BS trigger, like one recent one I am posting on (can this be salvaged) where the guy talked about picturing the OM on his wife....I just broke down, really broke down. I know that pain, I could feel that pain. But, in that pain hopefully I can help him and give him some comfort, at least I hope so. This man is hurting and many of us here know that hurt, and this is one way we can take that hurt and help someone else. It does help me a lot to do that.

Really sorry if this triggers someone


----------



## SomedayDig

Like I've said before...I'd probably trigger if someone misspells something!! 

What you just said, B1...that "in that pain hopefully I can help him and give him some comfort"...THAT right the F there is what the greater good is about.

Yes it sucks what we're going through and what we've been through, but if someone can learn and grow by reading our stories, then to me...it's worth it to post.

I'll trigger going to the mailbox or thinking about needing to grab something out of the basement. I'll trigger when I THINK about playing golf at a great course just because it's near the xOM's old house. Yeah...old house...it's already been sold!! 

My point is, it's not the post, the mailbox or the basement that triggers me. It's because I'm P.I.S.D. (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder).


----------



## Wazza

SomedayDig said:


> Like I've said before...I'd probably trigger if someone misspells something!!
> 
> What you just said, B1...that "in that pain hopefully I can help him and give him some comfort"...THAT right the F there is what the greater good is about.
> 
> Yes it sucks what we're going through and what we've been through, but if someone can learn and grow by reading our stories, then to me...it's worth it to post.
> 
> I'll trigger going to the mailbox or thinking about needing to grab something out of the basement. I'll trigger when I THINK about playing golf at a great course just because it's near the xOM's old house. Yeah...old house...it's already been sold!!
> 
> My point is, it's not the post, the mailbox or the basement that triggers me. It's because I'm P.I.S.D. (Post Infidelity Stress Disorder).


My way of dealing with triggers is to stare them down. There was one place where my wife and om first kissed and just driving past it I would trigger. I just refused to let it beat me and eventually I stopped reacting.

Having said that, in your shoes I would move houses if I could.


----------



## EI

Bad day for me. Eight years ago today my 49 year old brother called me and said that he didn't feel well. He wasn't really much of a complainer and he appeared to be very fit and healthy. I knew he had been somewhat depressed for a while, trouble with his long-time girlfriend, but the idea that he was seriously ill never really occurred to me. He never married and didn't have children. He lived alone in an apartment, but he and I were very close, even with a 9 year age difference between us. We had gotten a lot closer as adults after our Mom had passed away 5 years before. Since Daddy lived at my house, my brother was at the house a couple of times every week. He was a self-employed carpet layer and most of the time he didn't have any health insurance. His biggest complaint was that his back was hurting, but he thought that he needed to go to the hospital and we discussed his options. The only real option that he had was to go to University Hospital where they couldn't turn anyone away. He said that he would go the next day. We talked until about 10:30 p.m. that night and he said that he loved me and that he would call the next day after he got back from the hospital. I knew that I should have offered to go with him. I could tell that he wanted me to, but he wouldn't ask. 

I always took care of everyone.... Mom, Dad, my other brother, my other brother's children (we adopted them) my children.... I was tired and school was starting in a few days and I had 5 children that needed school clothes, shoes, school supplies, etc.... I was completely overwhelmed and I had promised my two youngest boys a trip to the amusement park the next day. Normally, I would have dropped everything and gone running when the phone rang and someone said they "needed" me. I would have just gotten "my stuff" taken care of later. But, it was the boys and a trip that I had promised all summer and time was running out. So, my brother didn't ask and I didn't volunteer. The next day I took the boys to the amusement park and we had the time of our lives. I refused to feel guilty, after all, my brother never dropped everything, or even anything, and came to my aide. Even if it was to help with our Dad (who had Alzheimer's Disease) when B1 was out of town or working a lot of hours. My brother was a free-spirit. He didn't sign up for the wife, kids and family life responsibilities. By the time the boys and I got home it was late in the afternoon and I started trying to call my brother. No answer..... again, no answer,........ this went on until late in the evening. I called the hospital and he wasn't there. When my daughter got home from her part-time job late that night I thought that maybe she and I should go over to his apartment and check on him. It wasn't very far from our house..... 15 minutes, maybe.... but just enough to be in an area that two women shouldn't be in alone at night. B1 was already in bed and when I talked to him he said, "Oh, you know your brother, he probably took off with some friends on a camping trip or something." I didn't think he would do that without calling me first, under the circumstances. But, B1 insisted that I wait until the next morning..... Saturday. I called, and called and called.... no answer. I decided to call his best friend. His friend had been concerned, as well, seems no one had heard from him on Friday and was hoping that he was with me or that I knew where he was. I told the friend that B1 was out running errands but that when he got home that he and I would go to my brothers and check on him. Less that an hour later I got that horrible phone call from the operator. The friend knew something wasn't right but didn't want to upset me until he knew for sure. He and another friend went to my brother's apartment and convinced the landlord to let them in. My brother was dead in his bed. I'm sure that after we talked that evening that he went to bed and never woke up. Although the two friends had already identified his body, the coroner's office required an identification by an immediate family member. Mom was dead, Dad had Alzheimer's and my other brother was in jail that weekend...... yeah me....... The first time in my life that I didn't just drop everything and go, help someone in need and look what it cost me?

It's been 8 years now, and for some reason it hasn't gotten any easier. Sometimes, I still get mad at him, mad because he should have told me that it was serious, mad because he left me to care for Dad and to deal with our other brother by myself, mad because I lost him. He and I didn't agree on anything politically, spiritually, socially.... nothing really. He had a genius IQ but that's another story....... He was my brother and I loved him, and I needed him, and I miss him as much today as I did then, maybe more.

The part about my being angry because he left me by myself to care for Dad was short lived. Fifteen days later, my father collapsed at my kitchen table while eating dinner. B1 did CPR and kept him alive until the paramedics arrived. They shocked his heart, but he never regained consciousness and he died shortly after midnight. That was the beginning of my downward spiral into a clinical depression that would last for the next 3 years.

I hate the month of August.


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm sorry EI.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I'm sorry EI.


Thank you.


----------



## SomedayDig

I am going to write something here. I hope it lifts you even a millimeter.

Today is Regret's and my 12th anniversary.

We woke up at 6:50am and exchanged new wedding bands in bed. We told each other what we mean to each other and where this next chapter of our lives was going.


----------



## Regret214

EI, honey....I am so sorry. Thank you so sharing something that is so painful. You are in our prayers and have friends here to listen.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I am going to write something here. I hope it lifts you even a millimeter.
> 
> Today is Regret's and my 12th anniversary.
> 
> We woke up at 6:50am and exchanged new wedding bands in bed. We told each other what we mean to each other and where this next chapter of our lives was going.





Regret214 said:


> EI, honey....I am so sorry. Thank you so sharing something that is so painful. You are in our prayers and have friends here to listen.



First, Happy Anniversary!!! I am so happy that the two of you chose to renew your commitment to one another. The love that you share with each other has always been apparent to me, even when it wasn't as obvious to other posters, here. 

This is probably the first time I have smiled  all day. 

I'm not sure why I decided to type all of that out tonight. All I know is that I have always been one to keep a diary, a journal, some written reminder of the big events in my life. When I got on TAM it was like having a diary that talked back. Now, sometimes, it isn't very nice..... LOL, but still, overall it has been helpful and I'm glad that B1 and I discovered it. People like the two of you and many, many others have made a very painful experience just a bit more bearable. Thank you, both! <3


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty, I am so so sorry, what a rough time you've been through..listen he probably didn't know himself how bad of shape he was in and you should not feel guilty one bit. Things happen and they just happen no matter what we do. Get what I mean? You wouldn't have been able to save his life. I understand your pain, having my favorite Aunt die at 47 when she was my emotional support , my mother figure. Her death was instant. It messed me up bad, then my cousin ODed a few years later and died then a month after that my Grandma who I love love loved with all my heart..Like got scary.. It literally just shook me up so bad I thought I'd never recover. At my daughter's graduation and her party I was teary eyed knowing my Aunt and Grandma and Grandpa would've loved to of been there. Just relax tonight, you need to rest and relax. Hugs to you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one


----------



## Regret214

Empty Inside said:


> I'm not sure why I decided to type all of that out tonight. All I know is that I have always been one to keep a diary, a journal, some written reminder of the big events in my life. When I got on TAM it was like having a diary that talked back. Now, sometimes, it isn't very nice..... LOL, but still, overall it has been helpful and I'm glad that B1 and I discovered it. People like the two of you and many, many others have made a very painful experience just a bit more bearable. Thank you, both! <3


And THIS is what TAM is all about!


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> You, you may say
> I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
> I hope some day you'll join us
> And the world will be as one


He loved that song.......... He was the coolest person. Not a damn care in the world. Of course, he let me do all of the "family" worrying for him! He was truly a genius. He knew the answers to every question on Trivial Pursuit... except for current Pop Culture... that was too "light" for him to worry about. He could tell you about every plant, rock, animal, insect, tree on the planet. He had an in-depth knowledge of U. S. History, World History, all of the wars..... I could ask him any random question that popped into my head and he would know the answer. "Hey, "J" tell me about nuclear proliferation????" "Tell me how locks and dams work." "How do 'they' build a bridge?" "Explain electricity to me, again!" He never got tired of my questions and I never got tired of asking them. And, though he never wanted children of his own, he was the coolest uncle on the planet!


----------



## Regret214

Those are the memories and moments that you need to focus on. The ones that bring you smiles. He made a mark on the your life and your children's lives. You will all be forever changed because of him. How blessed you are.


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Empty, I am so so sorry, what a rough time you've been through..listen he probably didn't know himself how bad of shape he was in and you should not feel guilty one bit. Things happen and they just happen no matter what we do. Get what I mean? You wouldn't have been able to save his life. I understand your pain, having my favorite Aunt die at 47 when she was my emotional support , my mother figure. Her death was instant. It messed me up bad, then my cousin ODed a few years later and died then a month after that my Grandma who I love love loved with all my heart..Like got scary.. It literally just shook me up so bad I thought I'd never recover. At my daughter's graduation and her party I was teary eyed knowing my Aunt and Grandma and Grandpa would've loved to of been there. Just relax tonight, you need to rest and relax. Hugs to you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, then, you know what it's like to feel like your very foundation has been ripped out from underneath you. I know how much you must have missed them at your daughter's graduation. It hurts like Hell. I'm so sorry.

My Dad promised our daughter that he would "dance" at her high school graduation. As far as I know, my Dad never told a single lie in his life. If he said it.... then it was the truth. Never, once, did I doubt that he would be at her graduation. He died the second week of her senior year in high school. To my knowledge, it was the only promise he ever made that he didn't keep. 

Did I say that I hate August?


----------



## EI

Regret214 said:


> Those are the memories and moments that you need to focus on. The ones that bring you smiles. He made a mark on the your life and your children's lives. You will all be forever changed because of him. How blessed you are.


Yes, but I need him now.


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> Yes, but I need him now.


Oh honey, I know..I do and it freakin sucks, you are a strong woman.. I admire that about you. You are going to be fine, now it's time to focus on your newfound relationship you have with B1 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Was l so hateful? I try to keep perspective most of the times



Hmmmmm..... well, it's late right now. Perhaps, tomorrow I'll see if I can find some of your more "interesting" comments! I figured out pretty early on that your heart was in the right place, but..............  LOL


----------



## MattMatt

Not there? Maybe. But I think they probably were there, in spirit.


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> I am going to write something here. I hope it lifts you even a millimeter.
> 
> Today is Regret's and my 12th anniversary.
> 
> We woke up at 6:50am and exchanged new wedding bands in bed. We told each other what we mean to each other and where this next chapter of our lives was going.



Woo-Hoo that's awesome you two, congrats, and happy anniversary.


----------



## B1

EI, I hope today is a better day. Mine is ok so far except my toe is killing me, and you wanna know why?
....becuase your leaky dog bit it yesterday escaping from the bathroom we had him so our grandson could run around safely. 

reconciliation..Letting this ^&%$ dog live another day becuase he's that important to your wife. I mean this too.


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> I am going to write something here. I hope it lifts you even a millimeter.
> 
> Today is Regret's and my 12th anniversary.
> 
> We woke up at 6:50am and exchanged new wedding bands in bed. We told each other what we mean to each other and where this next chapter of our lives was going.


Wishing you and Regret at least 50 more anniversaries !!


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Bad day for me. Eight years ago today my 49 year old brother called me and said that he didn't feel well. He wasn't really much of a complainer and he appeared to be very fit and healthy. I knew he had been somewhat depressed for a while, trouble with his long-time girlfriend, but the idea that he was seriously ill never really occurred to me. He never married and didn't have children. He lived alone in an apartment, but he and I were very close, even with a 9 year age difference between us. We had gotten a lot closer as adults after our Mom had passed away 5 years before. Since Daddy lived at my house, my brother was at the house a couple of times every week. He was a self-employed carpet layer and most of the time he didn't have any health insurance. His biggest complaint was that his back was hurting, but he thought that he needed to go to the hospital and we discussed his options. The only real option that he had was to go to University Hospital where they couldn't turn anyone away. He said that he would go the next day. We talked until about 10:30 p.m. that night and he said that he loved me and that he would call the next day after he got back from the hospital. I knew that I should have offered to go with him. I could tell that he wanted me to, but he wouldn't ask.
> 
> I always took care of everyone.... Mom, Dad, my other brother, my other brother's children (we adopted them) my children.... I was tired and school was starting in a few days and I had 5 children that needed school clothes, shoes, school supplies, etc.... I was completely overwhelmed and I had promised my two youngest boys a trip to the amusement park the next day. Normally, I would have dropped everything and gone running when the phone rang and someone said they "needed" me. I would have just gotten "my stuff" taken care of later. But, it was the boys and a trip that I had promised all summer and time was running out. So, my brother didn't ask and I didn't volunteer. The next day I took the boys to the amusement park and we had the time of our lives. I refused to feel guilty, after all, my brother never dropped everything, or even anything, and came to my aide. Even if it was to help with our Dad (who had Alzheimer's Disease) when B1 was out of town or working a lot of hours. My brother was a free-spirit. He didn't sign up for the wife, kids and family life responsibilities. By the time the boys and I got home it was late in the afternoon and I started trying to call my brother. No answer..... again, no answer,........ this went on until late in the evening. I called the hospital and he wasn't there. When my daughter got home from her part-time job late that night I thought that maybe she and I should go over to his apartment and check on him. It wasn't very far from our house..... 15 minutes, maybe.... but just enough to be in an area that two women shouldn't be in alone at night. B1 was already in bed and when I talked to him he said, "Oh, you know your brother, he probably took off with some friends on a camping trip or something." I didn't think he would do that without calling me first, under the circumstances. But, B1 insisted that I wait until the next morning..... Saturday. I called, and called and called.... no answer. I decided to call his best friend. His friend had been concerned, as well, seems no one had heard from him on Friday and was hoping that he was with me or that I knew where he was. I told the friend that B1 was out running errands but that when he got home that he and I would go to my brothers and check on him. Less that an hour later I got that horrible phone call from the operator. The friend knew something wasn't right but didn't want to upset me until he knew for sure. He and another friend went to my brother's apartment and convinced the landlord to let them in. My brother was dead in his bed. I'm sure that after we talked that evening that he went to bed and never woke up. Although the two friends had already identified his body, the coroner's office required an identification by an immediate family member. Mom was dead, Dad had Alzheimer's and my other brother was in jail that weekend...... yeah me....... The first time in my life that I didn't just drop everything and go, help someone in need and look what it cost me?
> 
> It's been 8 years now, and for some reason it hasn't gotten any easier. Sometimes, I still get mad at him, mad because he should have told me that it was serious, mad because he left me to care for Dad and to deal with our other brother by myself, mad because I lost him. He and I didn't agree on anything politically, spiritually, socially.... nothing really. He had a genius IQ but that's another story....... He was my brother and I loved him, and I needed him, and I miss him as much today as I did then, maybe more.
> 
> The part about my being angry because he left me by myself to care for Dad was short lived. Fifteen days later, my father collapsed at my kitchen table while eating dinner. B1 did CPR and kept him alive until the paramedics arrived. They shocked his heart, but he never regained consciousness and he died shortly after midnight. That was the beginning of my downward spiral into a clinical depression that would last for the next 3 years.
> 
> I hate the month of August.


EI -- I guess I ventured over to your thread with B1. It sounds like you still have some guilt about your brother's death. Like you posted -- he died in his sleep -- there was nothing you or him could have done. He says he was going to go to the hospital the next day -- but GOD had other plans. 

Forgive yourself if you haven't -- 15 days later your brother called your father. They are at peace now. 

Now when August comes -- honor them by remembering the good times. Death is a normal cycle of life -- it is something those left behind mourn and grieve. It is at that time when memories are all we have left -- focus on the good ones.

Hope today is a better day for you.

Say hi to B1.


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> EI, I hope today is a better day. Mine is ok so far except my toe is killing me, and you wanna know why?
> ....becuase your leaky dog bit it yesterday escaping from the bathroom we had him so our grandson could run around safely.
> 
> reconciliation..Letting this ^&%$ dog live another day becuase he's that important to your wife. I mean this too.


Reconciliation..... Fighting the urge to login to your husband's TAM account and correct all of his misspelled words.... Because you understand that technically brilliant and creative minds can't be bothered with spelling, grammar and punctuation! ;-) I love you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Thanks for the well wishes for Regret and I. We're getting ready to go tanning and hit the gym this morning! Then, off to what could be an exciting meeting about my career!!!

B1 - you're a better man than me with the leaky dog.


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## CantSitStill

I give up on my own typos. I'm getting lazy about even capitalizing words, that stupid Fn button is annoying too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

I over heard a co-worker talking about "wayward this"..."wayward that" and "wayward dates" etc. Finally, I realized he was saying "waiver". I see BS and I think it's always about me, but instead sometimes it's simply bull$%&^. I hear reconcile and think R. I see the word marriage and think TAM and about what I'm going through. I will never hear the word cheat again without cringing. 
Everytime I here of a divorce now I wonder which one had the A. speaking of A, that letter has a whole new meaning now. 
Boy how this stuff is just on our brains all the time right now.


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> I over heard a co-worker talking about "wayward this"..."wayward that" and "wayward dates" etc. Finally, I realized he was saying "waiver". I see BS and I think it's always about me, but instead sometimes it's simply bull$%&^. I hear reconcile and think R. I see the word marriage and think TAM and about what I'm going through. I will never hear the word cheat again without cringing.
> Everytime I here of a divorce now I wonder which one had the A. speaking of A, that letter has a whole new meaning now.
> Boy how this stuff is just on our brains all the time right now.


Hey B1, got the kid registered for his classes, all of his fees paid, geeeez, we probably can't afford any more "dates" this month, glad we're down to one kid in high school instead of 5. Went to the tanning bed, the cemetery, didn't get out of the car 'cuz it was pouring rain. Heading into grocery now. I hate it when you're moving from one office to another and your phone is disconnected and you're not getting reception on your cell. If it wasn't for TAM I don't know how I'd keep tabs on you. Love you!

BTW: Your Comment was funny..... Sitting in the car lmao....... I'm sorry, but it was funny!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

So I see Calvin and I aren't the only ones that have convos with eachother here on TAM...found alot of mispelled words in B1's last post myself lol..I do the same thing..see words like to, too and two spelled wrong. Sorry not picking on you B1 lol, just that your wife says she wishes to edit and I get it because I'm the same way, yet I'm getting better about just letting typos go..it's a process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Sorry just trying to lighten up the mood, it's a dreary day..did I spell dreary right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Sorry just trying to lighten up the mood, it's a dreary day..did I spell dreary right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh CSS...you got dreary right but lighten is liten and mood has an e, moode 

See I can spel when I have two


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## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> So I see Calvin and I aren't the only ones that have convos with eachother here on TAM...found alot of mispelled words in B1's last post myself lol..I do the same thing..see words like to, too and two spelled wrong. Sorry not picking on you B1 lol, just that your wife says she wishes to edit and I get it because I'm the same way, yet I'm getting better about just letting typos go..it's a process.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now, this is why I use Mozilla which has a spellcheck option!:rofl:


----------



## B1

reconciliation = intense talks, covering the hard stuff. Not letting go of something that's bothering you!


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## SomedayDig

Reconciliation is cleaning the entire house together...knowing it has been last on the list since (insert time frame from Dday).

And sitting back and smiling at how nice it looks. Together.


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## EI

Reconciliation = sitting up half of the night, researching the internet, thinking, reflecting and thinking some more when your BS needs something very specific in order to be able to heal. You're not quite sure you have the right answer because it isn't a "yes" or "no" or a well defined answer. It's a thought, a feeling, an attitude.... maybe you don't even have the right stuff. You fear that you can't ever give him what he truly needs. But you know you can.... you just have to find the answer within yourself. You never settle, you never waiver, you don't accept leaving well enough alone, because you know that that is how resentment builds on both sides. You determine that you both have to move forward in an honest and healthy way. You both have to be true to yourself and to each other. And, finally, when the light bulb moment goes off in your head and you're both crying, they are tears of release and joy and you know that hard work was worth it. Patience, determination, honesty....................... = Reconciliation


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Reconciliation is cleaning the entire house together...knowing it has been last on the list since (insert time frame from Dday).
> 
> And sitting back and smiling at how nice it looks. Together.




Sooooooo, I was wondering, while you're on a roll, would you guys mind swinging on over to our house to do some cleaning??? 'Cuz yeppers, after D-Day that kind of thing gets put on the back burner. I don't think I have cooked dinner more than 1/2 dozen times since the end of May. Not that that is a bad thing..... for me!!!


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## CantSitStill

I was doing alot of internet searching last night too on how to help the BS heal  I think you know when things are better when you get your appetite back..boy have I lost alot of weight
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

EI...I might actually like cleaning a house other than this. I hate to admit it, but I wanted to bring a couple things down to the basement. Didn't give it a second thought.

Until I walked through the door to the "bedroom" downstairs.



F**K! 

dammit.


----------



## Badblood

Reconciliation= Everything that has been said, but with long-term success. Short-term, many marriages recover, but I wonder about long-term? How many marriages last past the hyper-bonding stage? In 5, 10, 15 years how many? Too many times, we see couples who are like sprinters, their R is super quick, but they seem to forget tha marriage isn't a sprint, but a marathon.


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## SomedayDig

When Regret and I go on our 30th anniversary trip to Anguilla, I'll be sure to post.

I'm sure most who are truly in reconciliation understand it's a marathon. Reconciliation means that BOTH parties know that.


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## CantSitStill

I agree Badblood and this is why people must never take eachother for granted. R is very hard and painful as I see Calvin's pain and yes everyone wants it to go away but it never goes away and I hate it, yet I should have thought about that before, so how do you move on..you never give up, never lose sight of eachother. I think you have to be just as aware of your marriage and how it's going not only when it's in danger or not in an urgent state. Never ever become complacent. This is what I have learned. I only wish I didn't learn that the hard way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It's not fair, Calvin did not deserve this, he shouldn't have to be going through this and it is my fault..how in the world do I forgive myself for doing this to him? I guess by continuing to do the hard work and do all I can to be the wife he deserves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

A forgiven WS should be VERY VERY grateful when their spouse takes them back....ok I think that's all I have for now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> EI...I might actually like cleaning a house other than this. I hate to admit it, but I wanted to bring a couple things down to the basement. Didn't give it a second thought.
> 
> *Until I walked through the door to the "bedroom" downstairs.
> *
> 
> 
> F**K!
> 
> dammit.


_"DISLIKE" - sorry, that's got to be rough for you._


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## SomedayDig

It did suck pretty bad. But I'm on mile 3 of 26.2.


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## calvin

Dont know what to say about what CSS wrote except that I love my gal.
One in a million. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> It did suck pretty bad. But I'm on mile 3 of 26.2.


Run Dig, run.........................


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## SomedayDig

One of Regret's favorite songs is "I Won't Give Up".

I think that's the name anyway.

I ain't giving up. F that. I'm too much of a man.


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## EI

calvin said:


> Dont know what to say about what CSS wrote except that I love my gal.
> *One in a million.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're probably right!


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## jh52

calvin said:


> Dont know what to say about what CSS wrote except that I love my gal.
> One in a million.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Even though she is not into peanut butter !!!

Just teasing CSS as she hates when I bring up pb !!:smthumbup:


----------



## CantSitStill

jh52 said:


> Even though she is not into peanut butter !!!
> 
> Just teasing CSS as she hates when I bring up pb !!:smthumbup:


Jh52 you are like the sibling that just loves to tease to see if your gonna tick me off..you brat lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> Jh52 you are like the sibling that just loves to tease to see if your gonna tick me off..you brat lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know me well CSS from my posts and teasing you. You are a good sport with all my pb posts. !!:smthumbup:


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## Regret214

Reconciliation is accepting that not every day is going to be a good day. Words, places, people, things will be triggers when least expected. Reconciliation is working through these times together, being patient and loving and honest. Reconciliation is learning how to listen and share during the tough times, too.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Happiness is a warm puppy



wait wrong thread


----------



## B1

Regret214 said:


> Reconciliation is *accepting that not every day is going to be a good day*. Words, places, people, things will be triggers when least expected. Reconciliation is working through these times together, being patient and loving and honest. Reconciliation is learning how to listen and share during the tough times, too.


Could not have said this better myself.

We both had a bad day yesterday, mainly in the evening. We had a grueling MC session, EI was in tears for most of it. I triggered in the evening which was painful, no reason either I just did. So, we were both very said last night. But today is a new day and so far so good


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## SomedayDig

Yeah, I triggered yesterday. Not cool. It kind of bled into last night and I had a pretty tough time getting to sleep.

We went tanning and to the gym this morning. Just got home. Felt really good to work out. Now, I wanna go punch a zebra and eat a giraffe!

that's my pre-workout formula talking!! lol


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## jh52

One day at a time -- just take one day at a time !!


----------



## Almostrecovered

SomedayDig said:


> Now, I wanna go punch a zebra and eat a giraffe!


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## SomedayDig

Lunch time!!!!!!!!!


----------



## EI

So, I wonder if having dark circles under your eyes for weeks on end is a "normal" part of reconciliation. 

Yesterday was hard. It was three days of Hell for me remembering when my brother died 8 years ago. I feel like I have to endure a 3-day anniversary date of his death every year rather than one. Because it was August 12th that I last talked to him at 10:30 p.m. and he said he was going to the hospital the next day. Then, on August 13th I couldn't reach him on the phone all evening, then on Saturday, August 14th his friend found him, dead, in his bed. So, I'll never really know which one of those three days was the day he died. Although in my heart, I always felt that he went to bed the night of the 12th and did not wake up the next day. I think he died on the 13th.... Friday, August 13th. But, still, 3 damn days every August.... to be followed by Dad's death 16 days after we found "J." 

I guess, I don't feel like I have a right to be sad, mad, depressed or anything less than a loving, happy and supportive wife to B1. So, I've been keeping things inside when they bother me. I never used to do that, I'm very emotional and I would share everything with B1. But, for so many years there was never anything good to talk about, so he got tired of listening to me whine and complain..... A few years before the A, he just quit listening, he even quit looking at me when I was talking... mostly, he just nodded and said, "uh-huh," but he rarely even looked up from his computer screen. Of course, during the A, I quit complaining, I quit whining, I seemed happier, and I quit trying to lean on him for support to meet my/our needs. I suppose in some ways he thought that I had just accepted our "lot in life" as he referred to it. I hadn't, I had made that very clear.... but he was so "checked-out" of life, that all of my cries for help, for me, for us, for him to "wake-up" became a futile exercise in me talking.... just to hear the sound of my own voice. So, I quit talking to him. From the beginning of February last year, until the end of May this year (except for a brief time from the end of April until the end of June, last year, after D-Day #1, when we attempted a brief reconciliation that included a couple weeks of hysterical bonding and the biggest rug sweep in the history of mankind) B1 and I spoke of nothing that did not pertain to our finances, bills, or children. We slept separately. The only time we ever spent together was during family events like birthdays, holidays, any family get-togethers, and of course, to discuss the children and the finances..... last year was probably the worst ever in both of those areas. 

In counseling yesterday, B1 said that he did not remember August being so hard on me last year. The irony in that is that, at this very time last year, I had told B1 that I was definitely planning to get a divorce, but that I would wait until our youngest graduated from high school in 2013. Our reconciliation was not going anywhere, we never talked, the affair wasn't discussed, at all, B1 barely showed any anger or sadness. An emotional connection was never reestablished, the physical intimacy was very short-lived, B1 had completely withdrawn, again. I had been lurking on TAM for quite some time, at that point, I remembered reading where the WS would often be upset because the BS could not put the A behind them and move on. The BS wouldn't stop asking questions, they wouldn't stop being hurt and angry. I remember thinking, "I wish B1 would ask me questions, I wish that he had cared enough to be angry and hurt over my betrayal." Convinced, that B1 simply did not love me or that, perhaps, he was no longer capable of loving anyone, once again, I pursued the OM and the A began again in July. I admit that I did not put any effort into the reconciliation last year, either. The truth was, at that point, I had checked out of the marriage and I never honestly returned after D-Day # 1. On August 13th last year, he and I told our children that we would be getting a divorce but that it would not be in the immediate future, but that we were going to do this amicably and remain close as a family. We needed them to have some understanding of what was going on. The next day, August 14th was our daughter's baby shower, here, at our house. I tried to make things "happy and festive," but there was a heavy cloud hanging in the air. So much was going on with our other children, as well, but that is for another post. Several weeks later, B1 said something to the effect of "Can't we just keep doing what we are doing?" My therapist and someone else very close to our situation assumed that B1 knew what was going on and was accepting it. To be honest, I knew him better than that, but that scenario worked for my purposes, so I said, "okay, we'll just keep doing what we're doing." Meanwhile, I carried on my A, not nearly as discreetly as I should have. There were lunches during the day, dinners during the evenings, a grocery trip here or there. The xOM does live about 20 miles North of where we do, so these dinners weren't occurring in my own back yard, but still, certainly close enough for anyone to have seen us.

So, I have started rambling again...... blah, blah, blah....... I guess I'm saying this because when B1 said, in therapy yesterday, that he didn't remember August being so hard on me last year, I was somewhat speechless and had to really think before I could formulate a response. The most I could come up with, at the time, was that I was an emotional mess last August, it's just that he and I were so disconnected that he was unaware of my mental state. To be fair, he wouldn't have known about my grieving over the anniversary of my brother's death because I wasn't sharing my thoughts, feelings, hopes, fears, wishes or desires with him any longer. I was sharing them with my former AP. But, B1 wasn't even recalling the tumultuous August that he should have remembered..... our intended divorce and telling our children just one year before. 

I've asked B1 recently, many times, about the way that we rug swept the whole affair last year. I asked him if he had thought about it often, felt hurt, angry, sad..... He had never brought it up again. When I started having "girls night out" (code: AP night) nearly every Thursday, starting last July, with several other "random events" and "lengthy errands" thrown in the mix, he never questioned me at all. Never once even asked me if I had had a good time, or what we had done.... nothing. He trusted me completely. I still struggle to understand. He has said that he didn't feel hurt, angry, sad. He never thought about it, dwelled on it or held it against me. He never threw the A in my face. But, he never reengaged into the marriage, either. He went back inside.... back into his safe place..... back into himself. 

In IC and MC we are going to dig, and keep digging..... I think he and I both need lots more answers. One thing I know for sure, is that the way "we both" handled my A, last year, and all of the problems in our marriage leading up to it, is an example of a reconciliation that is destined to fail. The way we are doing it now is harder than any cross I've ever had to bear..... and I've had my share, so much more than we've ever shared on TAM. Though, it's hard, it's been worth it....... and not to reignite any previous discussions/comments/opinions/or beliefs of prior posters on this thread..... I will say this...... If we survive this, then our marriage will be stronger, better, healthier, more honest, more loving, more amazing that it ever was before.... and I dare say, it will be a better marriage than many have who have gone through much less. I feel like our marriage is becoming a beautiful old multimillion dollar mansion that has been hit by a hurricane. The foundation is cracked, the roof needs replacing, the landscaping has to be redone, carpets replaced, walls painted, all of the furnishings replaced. But that can all be done and when it's restored, it can be bigger, better, more beautiful and more spectacular than any brand new, unweathered, run-of-mill, just built $300,000 house ever could be. Because, in spite of it all, the hardships that B1 and I have endured, together, some of which the blame lies entirely within ourselves, but much of which we had no control over, he and I have had a spectacular life. We have given of ourselves to others, when at times, we didn't have enough to take care of our own. We gave up opportunities to make our own lives easier in order to make some lives simply bearable. We gave two children a home and a place in our hearts and our family, when they would have otherwise ended up in the custody of the state... not much of an existence for a child confined to a wheelchair with limited cognitive abilities. We've raised five children, who have definitely cost us financially, but who have been the absolute joy of our lives. We made my parent's last years bearable, and allowed them to die with dignity, after they had lived, sacrificed, and taken care of others their whole lives. We've helped B1's sister and niece when they needed it and countless others along the way.......

I love you B1..... I'm excited and hopeful about our future..... but, some days, you'll just have to understand that, even I, get a little sad. It doesn't mean that I'm going to do something that will hurt us. I won't. <3


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## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> .... but, some days, you'll just have to understand that, even I, get a little sad. It doesn't mean that I'm going to do something that will hurt us. I won't. <3


A very moving post EI. I'm glad to see that you can express yourself freely. Regret was the same way about holding in every single emotion that she had. We literally remember the last 5 years soooo differently.

I quoted your last paragraph because it meant a lot to me, personally. I need to hear Regret say that. Not just to mirror you, but so that she can feel it. And I can believe her.


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## CantSitStill

You know, it's never too late to change and make your life better. I'm learning that now 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I've just been so darn happy lately I'm prolly driving ya'll crazy sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered




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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> A very moving post EI. I'm glad to see that you can express yourself freely. Regret was the same way about holding in every single emotion that she had. We literally remember the last 5 years soooo differently.
> 
> I quoted your last paragraph because it meant a lot to me, personally. I need to hear Regret say that. Not just to mirror you, but so that she can feel it. And I can believe her.


Thank you so much, Dig. I really didn't know if anyone would read such a lengthy post. I think B1 and I have decided to "use" this forum in the way that suits our needs best. I have always journaled.... so this is no different, really. But, it is kind of nice to get some constructive feedback, on occasion. 

I'm glad that my last paragraph meant something to you. Because, all of my other paragraphs were leading to that one statement. I'm a details kind of girl!

Regret and I are often on the same page with our thoughts and emotions. A lot of our posts are similar in nature. Just the other night, you mentioned her first thread here, on TAM, back in April. I looked it up and read it. Although mine (because I talk a lot ) was lengthier, they essentially asked the same question..... "How Much Detail.... to give one's spouse." I would suspect that like me, she will have her own bad, sad, mad and depressed days, but doesn't feel "entitled" to express them. Again, like me, I don't think she has any intention of ever betraying her husband again..... and only wishes that she could "turn back time,"............ ooooooh, that's a Cher song!


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I've just been so darn happy lately I'm prolly driving ya'll crazy sorry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being happy is a good thing CSS!


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## CantSitStill

I love reading your posts Empty, it's so good to get it all out and ramble on here, and I read every word 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Thank you, CSS! Now, I have to get back to paying the bills. It's the 15th..... time to do the books!!! Yeah me..............


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## jh52

EI:

Your posts read like a novel and are very well thought out.  I enjoy reading them (unfortunately not a good time in your life for you or B1). 

I haven't been in either your shoes or B1's but one thing I have learned during my years of marriage is that communication is one of the keys. You are both doing that now -- and I ask you both to never stop -- no matter what is on your mind. 

Also, you were shocked that B1 had a different perspective of last August. That doesn't surprise me -- as he was in a totally different place then you, he had retreated within himself -- and you were let me just say doing your own thing.

Two people doing there own thing in a marriage very seldom remember or see things the same.

Fortunately you guys are back on track.

BTW -- I love your signature -- that is my motto as well.


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## EI

Thank you jh52..... people, like you, and others give us the support and encouragement that we need to get through the tough days.... and share our victories with us on the good days. That's why we keep coming back!


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## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> I agree Badblood and this is why people must never take eachother for granted. R is very hard and painful as I see Calvin's pain and yes everyone wants it to go away but it never goes away and I hate it, yet I should have thought about that before, so how do you move on..you never give up, never lose sight of eachother. I think you have to be just as aware of your marriage and how it's going not only when it's in danger or not in an urgent state. Never ever become complacent. This is what I have learned. I only wish I didn't learn that the hard way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is not what I'm saying at all. Most of the posters seem to be very supportive of those couples that have come to TAM to R. But who is it that tells them the truth? I would like to see those few posters, whose marriages have R"d long-term, come here. I don't feel that many of these couples realize what is going to happen months and years down the road. Right now they are experiencing the Drama, hyper-intensity and even the euphoria of recent reconnections. Many expressions of renewed commitment, love and fidelity and seemingly boundless optimism. But the truth is far harder. You WILL have troubles, BIG troubles, you WILL lose your present intensity, your marriages WILL become routine and you WILL begin to take each other for granted. Why? Because NOBODY can maintain such a level of intense personal activity, indefinitely. In order for R to be long-term successful, YOU NEED A PLAN. The Harley's on the marriage builders site is a good place to start, but where-ever, you need to have something in place, and not try to wing it, on your own.


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## SomedayDig

Who is it who tells them the truth?

An anonymous person with who knows what kind of motivation behind a computer screen?

What about the truth of the depth of a marriage before an affair or even the events/time leading up to it? What about the truth of the intricacies of the relationship individually?

Seems most of the "truth" spouted here goes right along with a script. Divorce. Must leave job. 180 hard! etc...

While each bit of advice might be prudent in some situations, not every one of them will be viable with someone's individual situation. Take the current guy on the board dealing with his wife's infidelity. She's a teacher. Immediately, everyone is saying she MUST quit her job since the OM works at the school, too. Well, what if they live in a rural area where there are no other schools for her to go to? What if she's an 18 year tenured teacher who, if she DID quit her job for another district, would start at year ONE pay and be un-tenured?

Sure, it's easy for us to tell everyone the "truth".

Then again...what is the truth?

I'd like to hear from the posters who's marriage reconciled long term come on here and talk about it. However, the truth is...they don't need to come here any more. So why would they?


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## Wazza

Badblood said:


> That is not what I'm saying at all. Most of the posters seem to be very supportive of those couples that have come to TAM to R. But who is it that tells them the truth? I would like to see those few posters, whose marriages have R"d long-term, come here. I don't feel that many of these couples realize what is going to happen months and years down the road. Right now they are experiencing the Drama, hyper-intensity and even the euphoria of recent reconnections. Many expressions of renewed commitment, love and fidelity and seemingly boundless optimism. But the truth is far harder. You WILL have troubles, BIG troubles, you WILL lose your present intensity, your marriages WILL become routine and you WILL begin to take each other for granted. Why? Because NOBODY can maintain such a level of intense personal activity, indefinitely. In order for R to be long-term successful, YOU NEED A PLAN. The Harley's on the marriage builders site is a good place to start, but where-ever, you need to have something in place, and not try to wing it, on your own.



Communication. Keep it open, honest, selfless and caring. I'm convinced the key is that simple. Note simple doesn't mean easy.


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## SomedayDig

Wazza said:


> Communication. Keep it open, honest, selfless and caring. I'm convinced the key is that simple. Note simple doesn't mean easy.


That doesn't create drama, hence the television ratings will suffer! :rofl:



But Regret and I are in complete agreement with that comment!


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## Affaircare

I'm here. Been here for two years and my affair was three years ago. If you have questions, ask me. But here's what I've learned: as you go along, you learn more so the truth changes. Well no that's no well-worded. At the beginning the truth may look like one thing, and as you go along you also learn more so you see that the truth from a different perspective. 

I'll give you an example. When I first went No Contact with the OM and then realized I also had to go NC with all the friends I'd made, it was painful. I thought, "Who am I going to talk to? Who will be interested and care?" and I had to literally kind of convince myself that Dear Hubby would talk to me and be interested and care. No part of me really felt that in my core--but my head believed it was the truth. Now...three years later...I realize that he DOES in fact want to talk and is interested and does care FOR REAL. I've learned what true caring is and that the way he shows interest and the way I show interest are different...so now I can tell when he's "showing interest." 

People here on TAM who are "younger" tend to want a solution. "Do *THIS* and the affair will end, and you'll get your marriage back." When I first came here I thought the two spouses shared the blame for the affair. Then I realized that no, being a Nice Guy really actually is harmful and not helpful or loving...so I became more "Do the 180" and was on the hard side. Now I realize that it is a bit of both: the Loyal Spouse really must allow the Disloyal to experience the consequences or they won't learn; the Loyal really must show themselves more respect than to tolerate that kind of treatment; but the Loyal must also at minimum examine their own side of the street and not worry about whether the Disloyal is cleaning up their side of the street--what's dirty is dirty so tidy up!


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## CantSitStill

Beowulf and Morrigan are 20yrs R..why? because they both want it. If you want it you will make it work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Badblood said:


> That is not what I'm saying at all. Most of the posters seem to be very supportive of those couples that have come to TAM to R. But who is it that tells them the truth? I would like to see those few posters, whose marriages have R"d long-term, come here. I don't feel that many of these couples realize what is going to happen months and years down the road. Right now they are experiencing the Drama, hyper-intensity and even the euphoria of recent reconnections. Many expressions of renewed commitment, love and fidelity and seemingly boundless optimism. But the truth is far harder. You WILL have troubles, BIG troubles, you WILL lose your present intensity, your marriages WILL become routine and you WILL begin to take each other for granted. Why? Because NOBODY can maintain such a level of intense personal activity, indefinitely. In order for R to be long-term successful, YOU NEED A PLAN. The Harley's on the marriage builders site is a good place to start, but where-ever, you need to have something in place, and not try to wing it, on your own.



Our MC actually said the same thing about having a plan just yesterday. We have one and for now we know what we need to do, it's currently short term but until we work through a few things they will be short term plans. Our MC absolutely has a plan to help us with a long term marriage plan. I want one too. I will look at the site you mentioned too BB, appreciate the post about that.

Most every LT marriage falls into a routine, that's not necessarily bad. You just can't take each other for granted, you have to keep communications open and you have to listen to one another. You have to love, honor and cherish each other or things will go bad. If we don't know this then I don't know who does. We have seen first hand what happens when you let your marriage go, when you forget each other. This is something neither of us will soon forget.

I am sure there are common mistakes a soldier will make in the field, in battle, perhaps something that almost cost him his life, yet he escaped death. He probably will never make that same mistake again. Same goes for me and EI, we escaped D, we made mistakes that should have ended this marriage but we are fighting hard to keep it together, and succeeding. We know first hand what mistakes we both made and are very aware that we cannot allow them to ever happen again. 

BIG trouble? we already had BIG trouble, not sure it can get any bigger then what we just went through and are still going through. We weathered a horrific storm.
I think I know what you mean though, dealing with the aftermath, but it cannot be any harder than Dday and those first few weeks following it. We already know every day will not be sunshine and roses, some days EI will be sad or mad and some days I will trigger and be sad or mad. That's just the way it is but it's still far better then anything we had before. Also, what marriage doesn't have it's ups and downs?


We do have friends who are 7 years into R and they are very happy. The A is still talked about almost daily with them too.
They have helped us a lot. They also winged it on their own, they did some counseling but I don't think a lot of it.


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## calvin

Seven years for a friend of yours B1?....Oh God..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

7yrs R is a good thing..20 even better..40 even better..see it is possible
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

calvin said:


> Seven years for a friend of yours B1?....Oh God..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, 7 years in reconciliation. The A lasted 10 years. I'll be honest, in the past when B1 and I have had friends whose marriages have been rocked by infidelity, I have always been the harshest of judges. B1 and I were just discussing divorce and infidelity this evening,.... Imagine that, and we realized that my three closet girlfriends and his two closest guy friends have all either been divorced, experienced infidelity in their marriages and/or both. This also extends to B1's parents and one of my brothers. In every one of these marriages that involved infidelity, with the exception of one, it was the wife who was unfaithful. The marriage where the husband was unfaithful is the only one of these marriages that chose reconciliation.... 7 years later and they are still going strong. They have been very helpful to us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

This is utterly off topic, and I apologize for threadjacking, but B1, your avatar intrigues me. It looks like Stark, from Farscape. (Stark - Farscape Encyclopedia Project - Peacekeeper Wars, Sci Fi) Is that who it is? If so, why did you choose Stark as your avatar--how does he represent "you"? 

I'm just curious....


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## EI

Affaircare said:


> This is utterly off topic, and I apologize for threadjacking, but B1, your avatar intrigues me. It looks like Stark, from Farscape. (Stark - Farscape Encyclopedia Project - Peacekeeper Wars, Sci Fi) Is that who it is? If so, why did you choose Stark as your avatar--how does he represent "you"?
> 
> I'm just curious....



That's kind of cool, but the avatar is actually B1, himself. Photography is one of his hobbies. Both of our avatars are made from pictures that he took and made into digital sketches. He is a man of many talents!


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## Affaircare

WOW!  

We're not worthy!







:lol:


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## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> Beowulf and Morrigan are 20yrs R..why? because they both want it. If you want it you will make it work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, but I don't believe this. Wanting will not make it so.


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## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> Our MC actually said the same thing about having a plan just yesterday. We have one and for now we know what we need to do, it's currently short term but until we work through a few things they will be short term plans. Our MC absolutely has a plan to help us with a long term marriage plan. I want one too. I will look at the site you mentioned too BB, appreciate the post about that.
> 
> Most every LT marriage falls into a routine, that's not necessarily bad. You just can't take each other for granted, you have to keep communications open and you have to listen to one another. You have to love, honor and cherish each other or things will go bad. If we don't know this then I don't know who does. We have seen first hand what happens when you let your marriage go, when you forget each other. This is something neither of us will soon forget.
> 
> I am sure there are common mistakes a soldier will make in the field, in battle, perhaps something that almost cost him his life, yet he escaped death. He probably will never make that same mistake again. Same goes for me and EI, we escaped D, we made mistakes that should have ended this marriage but we are fighting hard to keep it together, and succeeding. We know first hand what mistakes we both made and are very aware that we cannot allow them to ever happen again.
> 
> BIG trouble? we already had BIG trouble, not sure it can get any bigger then what we just went through and are still going through. We weathered a horrific storm.
> I think I know what you mean though, dealing with the aftermath, but it cannot be any harder than Dday and those first few weeks following it. We already know every day will not be sunshine and roses, some days EI will be sad or mad and some days I will trigger and be sad or mad. That's just the way it is but it's still far better then anything we had before. Also, what marriage doesn't have it's ups and downs?
> 
> 
> We do have friends who are 7 years into R and they are very happy. The A is still talked about almost daily with them too.
> They have helped us a lot. They also winged it on their own, they did some counseling but I don't think a lot of it.


Precisely so, B1. This is what I'm talking about. 7 YEARS into R, and the A is still a daily topic of conversation.. Who thinks they can do this? Who even realizes the amount of difficulty that this will entail? We can all speak catch-phrases, say all the right things, but the proof is in the doing, or more rightly, the proof is in the HAVING DONE. Affaircare, Beowulf and maybe one or two others are the only ones to have done it. If I were in R, I would listen very carefully to what they say, and use the tools that other sites provide.


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## Badblood

Wazza said:


> Communication. Keep it open, honest, selfless and caring. I'm convinced the key is that simple. Note simple doesn't mean easy.


Sorry , Wazza, but simple won't cut it. The number and variety of issues, their relative importance to each partner, and the characters of each partner, make "simple", not an option. If anything, R is at least as complex as the original marriage, in all probability , much more complex, and some of these issues are beyond the control of the marriage partners. An example is the work situation. IF the WS works with the AP, what then? There is no "one size fits all", answer, especially in the current economic atmosphere. Children are another variable, that has to be taken into consideration, their ages, what they can be told, their individual relationships to each parent, and their character in regards to how they will react. Simplicity is wishful thinking, when "multi-tasking", is probably closer to the mark.


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## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Sorry , Wazza, but simple won't cut it. The number and variety of issues, their relative importance to each partner, and the characters of each partner, make "simple", not an option. If anything, R is at least as complex as the original marriage, in all probability , much more complex, and some of these issues are beyond the control of the marriage partners. An example is the work situation. IF the WS works with the AP, what then? There is no "one size fits all", answer, especially in the current economic atmosphere. Children are another variable, that has to be taken into consideration, their ages, what they can be told, their individual relationships to each parent, and their character in regards to how they will react. Simplicity is wishful thinking, when "multi-tasking", is probably closer to the mark.


I get all that. The OM was one of my wife's teachers at college in the first year of a six year qualification, there were children involved, and at the time our economy had just tanked.

You meet someone, you spend all night talking, you kiss, hold each other, etc. Then you get married, other things crowd in and you get complacent. 

Something your spouse does bugs you and you say nothing rather than create a fight. More of these amass and you find you can't talk in the same way because you are too busy dodging awkward topics. You learn not to speak.

Time passes, you meet someone else you can connect with, and you can talk to. All of a sudden you are intimate with them in a way you no longer are with your spouse. You go closer, the sexual chemistry kicks in, and bang.

You break off the affair, but all of a sudden there is this great big elephant in the room, the most painful topic you have ever had between you. You need to get back to being open with each other, and to do that you have to climb the elephant.

Communication is about climbing the elephant and working through the problems together. And it means listening and accepting what your partner says. Not just rehearsing your next line in your head while they are speaking.

Note, there is an assumption here that both parties value the relationship and want to reconcile for honourable reasons. My comment was aimed at people I believe to be in that camp. If your significant other is committed to infidelity, different situation.

Yes there are problems to be overcome, but that is true of any marriage, not just where there is an affair.

On the other hand, communication (both verbal and physical) is where my wife and I are still working. Maybe it's just us and I'm projecting.


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## Badblood

Wazza said:


> I get all that. The OM was one of my wife's teachers at college in the first year of a six year qualification, there were children involved, and at the time our economy had just tanked.
> 
> You meet someone, you spend all night talking, you kiss, hold each other, etc. Then you get married, other things crowd in and you get complacent.
> 
> Something your spouse does bugs you and you say nothing rather than create a fight. More of these amass and you find you can't talk in the same way because you are too busy dodging awkward topics. You learn not to speak.
> 
> Time passes, you meet someone else you can connect with, and you can talk to. All of a sudden you are intimate with them in a way you no longer are with your spouse. You go closer, the sexual chemistry kicks in, and bang.
> 
> You break off the affair, but all of a sudden there is this great big elephant in the room, the most painful topic you have ever had between you. You need to get back to being open with each other, and to do that you have to climb the elephant.
> 
> Communication is about climbing the elephant and working through the problems together. And it means listening and accepting what your partner says. Not just rehearsing your next line in your head while they are speaking.
> 
> Note, there is an assumption here that both parties value the relationship and want to reconcile for honourable reasons. My comment was aimed at people I believe to be in that camp. If your significant other is committed to infidelity, different situation.
> 
> Yes there are problems to be overcome, but that is true of any marriage, not just where there is an affair.
> 
> On the other hand, communication (both verbal and physical) is where my wife and I are still working. Maybe it's just us and I'm projecting.


Waz, I'm not being critical of you, your marriage or your R, but simply stating that "simplification", isn't going to happen. Look at your last post, every item is subject to several different interpretations, and probably is being interpreted differently by you AND your wife , too. R is anything but simple OR easy. It is a very, very complex relationship interaction, that MUST take into consideration ALL issues, interpretations, and variables, in order to be successful, long-term. If it were simple, there would be no need for MC's, infidelity web-sites, or relationship management seminars and forums. Look at how many different examples we have here on TAM. Communication is a great start, but only a start.


----------



## calvin

Badblood said:


> Sorry, but I don't believe this. Wanting will not make it so.


I disagree big time,I was brought up to know that anything is possible and if you want it bad enough,you'll fight for it and get it,no matter what the odds.
You dont surrender,you dont go in half c0cked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Waz, I'm not being critical of you, your marriage or your R, but simply stating that "simplification", isn't going to happen. Look at your last post, every item is subject to several different interpretations, and probably is being interpreted differently by you AND your wife , too. R is anything but simple OR easy. It is a very, very complex relationship interaction, that MUST take into consideration ALL issues, interpretations, and variables, in order to be successful, long-term. If it were simple, there would be no need for MC's, infidelity web-sites, or relationship management seminars and forums. Look at how many different examples we have here on TAM. Communication is a great start, but only a start.


It's possible to over-think it you know. Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans.


----------



## EI

Affaircare said:


> WOW!
> 
> We're not worthy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:


You're so silly! LOL


----------



## Almostrecovered

what's the phrase? "Paralysis by analysis"


----------



## SomedayDig

It's an appropriate phrase AR. It seems that some of us in reconciliation don't REALLY know what the f**k we're getting into or how hard it's gonna be or the years of hard work we're gonna go through or the countless sleepless nights after being triggered and having the WS sit by your side till 3am. We don't know a f'ng thing.

But the divorced guy can tell us EXACTLY what we're in for and how we should be doing it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Very easy to fall into the old routine. Honestly that rut seems nice after the hurricane of emotion I went through after D day. The trick is not to succumb to that sirens call.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

*"If you think sunshine brings you happiness, then you haven't danced in the rain. "*

Yep, I think B1 and I are going to dance in the rain.... for a while.... I like dancing and I like rain!


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Very easy to fall into the old routine. Honestly that rut seems nice after the hurricane of emotion I went through after D day. The trick is not to succumb to that sirens call.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. For Regret and me, we've had the affair as part of our every day lives since 3/6. There's not a day that we don't talk about it in some fashion. However, it was nice a few weeks ago to veg out watching the Olympics for a day. Just hanging out together.

I think sometimes we need a break from all the talk. I don't think a few hours of down time is bad. But as you said, "the trick is not to succumb to the siren's call".



Empty Inside said:


> *"If you think sunshine brings you happiness, then you haven't danced in the rain. "*
> 
> Yep, I think B1 and I are going to dance in the rain.... for a while.... I like dancing and I like rain!


THAT sounds awesome. But...

There's something else I'd like to do in a summer's rain...


----------



## B1

Badblood said:


> Sorry, but I don't believe this. Wanting will not make it so.


But it's where you start and it keeps you moving forward. After Dday I *wanted *to make our marriage work, I *wanted *to R....wanting is the beginning and the constant that keeps us moving. Sure there is work, lots of work, lots of different things we will do to make this work, but we want to make it work, both of us want this. So, there is some truth in wanting to make it so.

I guess if the cemistry isn't there, the love isn't there, the desire isn't there then wanting will not mean anything, I am assuming, and I think so is wazza, that wanting is followed by all the above.

I think I know what you are saying though, the point you are making is that it's going to be hard, and it's going to get maybe harder. That there are days that we will want to give up. How are we going to handle it when things calm down, and the routine sets in etc.

Well, we don't really truly know until we get there, that's where all the tools and learning come in handy. That's where MC and IC come in, that's where our friends come in and hearing how others are handeling things comes in. We cannot just go back to the way things where WE BOTH know that. We want to do this right and I think we are.

A newly married couple goes through a very similiar thing, honey moon then routine, then they find out what they are made of when things calm down and life sets in. 3 years is a big turning point I have heard for a newly married couple, They say R takes 2-5 years
that would be about right. 

Sure I don't like it that I will fight these mind movies that long, or battle these images, or re-live Dday, but my love far outweighs those hurts. Those hurts are not constant, my love is. Those hurts will dwindle down, my love will not I won't allow it too. 

Truth is, we really don't know what the future holds for any of us, but I want it to hold me and my wife, I want to grow old with her and love her as long as I can. I want this to work and I am willing to do the hard stuff to make it work, wanting is a key ingredient I believe.

I love the forest Gump saying: "Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what your going to get"


----------



## EI

Empty Inside said:


> *"If you think sunshine brings you happiness, then you haven't danced in the rain. "*
> 
> Yep, I think B1 and I are going to dance in the rain.... for a while.... I like dancing and I like rain!





SomedayDig said:


> THAT sounds awesome. But...
> 
> There's something else I'd like to do in a summer's rain...


Meeeeee, toooooooo!!! I have always had an adventurous and slightly mischievous spirit. But, I was the youngest in my family and the only girl and a great deal of responsibility was expected of me from a very early age. Then, I married young, and again, was called on, by my "first" family, to take on responsibilities and obligations that, rightfully, belonged to others. 

At times, I feel like I have never got to be free to run, play, dance, soar................ But, now, for the first time ever, B1 has lost his inhibitions and the kids are all _almost_ grown ..... not completely on their own, out the door, financially independent grown, but getting much closer.

I plan to take full advantage of B1's newfound "awakening" and let my "little girl" out to play, with B1, of course...... and I plan to Dance in the Rain, Parachute out of an airplane (my Daddy was a Paratrooper in World War II and had 3 combat jumps.... he fought in the Battle of Corregidor, Rock Island) Zip-line, and dance some more.......... oh, and I like to sing, too..... I'm not saying that I'm very good at it, but I like to.... so I will! 

About what "you" were referring to...... yeah, ditto that for me, my philosophy has always been, anytime, anyplace, anywhere..... that's just how I roll! 

I think I'm feeling a little better today.....................


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> *.......but my love far outweighs those hurts. Those hurts are not constant, my love is. Those hurts will dwindle down, my love will not, I won't allow it to.
> 
> Truth is, we really don't know what the future holds for any of us, but I want it to hold me and my wife, I want to grow old with her and love her as long as I can. I want this to work and I am willing to do the hard stuff to make it work, wanting is a key ingredient, I believe.*


*

Awww.................. <3  Ditto for me!



betrayed1 said:



I love the Forrest Gump saying: "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get."

Click to expand...

* - _edited_



Snoopy, (okay, TAM people, it's time that you know that B1 is not my hubby's real name...... I like to call him "Snoopy") in the future, if I quote from your posts, I will have to correct any/all spelling/grammatical errors, k?  Love you!!!! <3


----------



## Badblood

calvin said:


> I disagree big time,I was brought up to know that anything is possible and if you want it bad enough,you'll fight for it and get it,no matter what the odds.
> You dont surrender,you dont go in half c0cked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's an old saying, "wishes in one hand and sh*t in the other, which gets filled up first?"


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> It's possible to over-think it you know. Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans.


Don't be silly, Waz. You go on a road trip and you don't get directions? You cook dinner and you use a recipe. You go on a flight or to dinner and you don't make reservations? Everybody makes plans, for virtually every aspect of their lives, but for something as important as R, you just free-bag it? Good luck with that.


----------



## calvin

Badblood said:


> There's an old saying, "wishes in one hand and sh*t in the other, which gets filled up first?"


You dont wish,you work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> But it's where you start and it keeps you moving forward. After Dday I *wanted *to make our marriage work, I *wanted *to R....wanting is the beginning and the constant that keeps us moving. Sure there is work, lots of work, lots of different things we will do to make this work, but we want to make it work, both of us want this. So, there is some truth in wanting to make it so.
> 
> I guess if the cemistry isn't there, the love isn't there, the desire isn't there then wanting will not mean anything, I am assuming, and I think so is wazza, that wanting is followed by all the above.
> 
> I think I know what you are saying though, the point you are making is that it's going to be hard, and it's going to get maybe harder. That there are days that we will want to give up. How are we going to handle it when things calm down, and the routine sets in etc.
> 
> Well, we don't really truly know until we get there, that's where all the tools and learning come in handy. That's where MC and IC come in, that's where our friends come in and hearing how others are handeling things comes in. We cannot just go back to the way things where WE BOTH know that. We want to do this right and I think we are.
> 
> A newly married couple goes through a very similiar thing, honey moon then routine, then they find out what they are made of when things calm down and life sets in. 3 years is a big turning point I have heard for a newly married couple, They say R takes 2-5 years
> that would be about right.
> 
> Sure I don't like it that I will fight these mind movies that long, or battle these images, or re-live Dday, but my love far outweighs those hurts. Those hurts are not constant, my love is. Those hurts will dwindle down, my love will not I won't allow it too.
> 
> Truth is, we really don't know what the future holds for any of us, but I want it to hold me and my wife, I want to grow old with her and love her as long as I can. I want this to work and I am willing to do the hard stuff to make it work, wanting is a key ingredient I believe.
> 
> I love the forest Gump saying: "Life is like a box of chocolats, you never know what your going to get"


I agree to a point, B1, but I still think that you need to plan for the future, in order to have one. I had done a lot of reading, (books and the net)talked to MC's (to get a pro-marriage one) set my ex up for IC and therapy, and had laid the groundwork for R. Too bad she was bat-sh*t crazy, and wouldn't go NC with her old pervert, until it was too late. But at least I gave it a shot. I do think that you and EI have the most realistic chance to survive, long-term, BECAUSE you take into consideration the variables, and are always planning what to do to meet them.


----------



## Badblood

calvin said:


> You dont wish,you work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly so, Calvin. It's the WORK that make the wishes a reality. I learned a long time ago , that the rah-rah,loud mouth, gung-ho Marines weren't the ones to get the job done, it was the thoughtful planners, the go-to guys that accomplished the missions. To use a couple of Military analogies, Macho men like the George Custers and George Picketts fail, the quiet types like Robt. Lee, U. S . Grant, Alvin York or Audie Murphy win battles and wars. It wasn't the egotists or wishers that killed Osama, was it?


----------



## calvin

Nope,I work and plan things out and set goals,how I was raised,yiou can wish all you want.It wont do a damn thing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> I agree to a point, B1, but I still think that you need to plan for the future, in order to have one. I had done a lot of reading, (books and the net)talked to MC's (to get a pro-marriage one) set my ex up for IC and therapy, and had laid the groundwork for R. Too bad she was bat-sh*t crazy, and wouldn't go NC with her old pervert, until it was too late. But at least I gave it a shot. I do think that you and EI have the most realistic chance to survive, long-term, BECAUSE you take into consideration the variables, and are always planning what to do to meet them.



BB, you did your part. Your wife did not. There was NOTHING more you could have done. One person cannot do all of the work.... and certainly not the BS. It takes both the BS and WS doing everything they can possibly do, and then some, to get through this.

I find myself trying to be so accountable with my time, that I am driving myself into an anxiety-filled frenzy. So much so, that just paying the bills, doing the laundry, running my errands and going to the grocery, all in one day, can send me into a melt-down because I am afraid that if it isn't all done before B1 gets home that he will question my time. He has NEVER questioned my time before. He doesn't really do it, now. But I get so stressed because I want for him to feel secure. But, the truth is I have always taken longer to get things done, like grocery shopping and running errands, because I stop and look at everything. B1 throws things in the cart and moves on. I just got a new phone with a data plan and noticed "Internet/Media" showing up at all hours of the day and night. I had no idea what it was and I knew that I wasn't doing anything wrong. I drove myself mad for a day and a half trying to figure it out because I was afraid that B1 would see it and ask about it and I wouldn't have an explanation for it. I'm still a little unsure of what it is, but I looked at B1's and the three boys and they have it, too. It isn't something we are being billed for. I think it is just something about data, the internet and having an iPhone. If you Google it, there is some kind of explanation for it.

Finally, after three very stress filled days and lots of tears for both of us this week..... because when I am stressed and upset, B1 worries that I am thinking about the OM (yes, Honey, I know that's what you think) he finally said for me to stop worrying so much, get my things done, take my time, enjoy my day, and it took the weight of the world off of me. I don't need to be paranoid, anymore, because I don't have to hide/cover my actions, they're honest and good actions, and that little bit of trust is a beautiful gift that B1 has given me.... That, is also what reconciliation is all about!


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> BB, you did your part. Your wife did not. There was NOTHING more you could have done. One person cannot do all of the work.... and certainly not the BS. It takes both the BS and WS doing everything they can possibly do, and then some, to get through this.
> 
> I find myself trying to be so accountable with my time, that I am driving myself into an anxiety-filled frenzy. So much so, that just paying the bills, doing the laundry, running my errands and going to the grocery, all in one day, can send me into a melt-down because I am afraid that if it isn't all done before B1 gets home that he will question my time. He has NEVER questioned my time before. He doesn't really do it, now. But I get so stressed because I want for him to feel secure. But, the truth is I have always taken longer to get things done, like grocery shopping and running errands, because I stop and look at everything. B1 throws things in the cart and moves on. I just got a new phone with a data plan and noticed "Internet/Media" showing up at all hours of the day and night. I had no idea what it was and I knew that I wasn't doing anything wrong. I drove myself mad for a day and a half trying to figure it out because I was afraid that B1 would see it and ask about it and I wouldn't have an explanation for it. I'm still a little unsure of what it is, but I looked at B1's and the three boys and they have it, too. It isn't something we are being billed for. I think it is just something about data, the internet and having an iPhone. If you Google it, there is some kind of explanation for it.
> 
> Finally, after three very stress filled days and lots of tears for both of us this week..... because when I am stressed and upset, B1 worries that I am thinking about the OM (yes, Honey, I know that's what you think) he finally said for me to stop worrying so much, get my things done, take my time, enjoy my day, and it took the weight of the world off of me. I don't need to be paranoid, anymore, because I don't have to hide/cover my actions, they're honest and good actions, and that little bit of trust is a beautiful gift that B1 has given me.... That, is also what reconciliation is all about!


EI, you nut!! I said quiet planning and consideration, NOT panic, obssession and stress! You know, you give me the giggles , sometimes.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> EI, you nut!! I said quiet planning and consideration, NOT panic, obssession and stress! You know, you give me the giggles , sometimes.


 LOL


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> LOL


You remind me of my GF. She actually asked me what type of underwear she should buy. I thought she meant what she should buy for ME and told her that I'm perfectly capable of buying my own. She said, :no, what kind did I want HER to wear?" So I told her, the kind that's pretty and easy to get off. So last night she looked over ALL of the lingerie websites, asking me what I thought of this kind or that. GEEZ! I had to laugh, which hurt her feelings, sooooo then I had to prove my point. I love it when she sighs. She is the prettiest white gal on planet Earth, bar none. Sorry for the T/J.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> You remind me of my GF. She actually asked me what type of underwear she should buy. I thought she meant what she should buy for ME and told her that I'm perfectly capable of buying my own. She said, :no, what kind did I want HER to wear?" So I told her, the kind that's pretty and easy to get off. So last night she looked over ALL of the lingerie websites, asking me what I thought of this kind or that. GEEZ! I had to laugh, which hurt her feelings, sooooo then I had to prove my point. I love it when she sighs.


Here is a link to my own personal favorite: 
Panties*& Sexy Women's Underwear at Victoria's Secret

B1 made me throw out the old stuff and buy all new...... "Oh, the torture......."  Women just _hate_ having to buy new lingerie.. 




Badblood said:


> She is the prettiest white gal on planet Earth, bar none. Sorry for the T/J.


I think you're biased...... I base this on the fact that when my boys were younger, one of them said to me, "Mom, you're the best Mom in the whole world," to which another son responded, "You don't know that, you haven't met all of the Moms in the whole world." Blaaaaaah 

_So,.............................. you figure it out!_


----------



## Badblood

Oh, she's a big fan of Victoria. The trouble (if you can call it that) is that when she buys some new stuff, it automatically becomes a marathon sex session. She models it, then I take it off, then we have sex, ETC. If she has a lot of stuff, it can take a full weekend, just for her to show it to me. Not that I'm complaining. LOL. My golf game has suffered terribly.


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> Here is a link to my own personal favorite:
> Panties*& Sexy Women's Underwear at Victoria's Secret
> 
> B1 made me throw out the old stuff and buy all new...... "Oh, the torture......."  Women just _hate_ having to buy new lingerie..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're biased...... I base this on the fact that when my boys were younger, one of them said to me, "Mom, you're the best Mom in the whole world," to which another son responded, "You don't know that, you haven't met all of the Moms in the whole world." Blaaaaaah
> 
> _So,.............................. you figure it out!_


Some things that I never knew about white women, are that she has freckles on her entire body, which I think are about as sexy as anything. Who knew? It's amazing!!


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> Oh, she's a big fan of Victoria. The trouble (if you can call it that) is that when she buys some new stuff, it automatically becomes a marathon sex session. She models it, then I take it off, then we have sex, ETC. If she has a lot of stuff, it can take a full weekend, just for her to show it to me. Not that I'm complaining. LOL. My golf game has suffered terribly.


I feel certain that the heart of every man, here, reading this, bleeds for you! NOT  LOL


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Don't be silly, Waz. You go on a road trip and you don't get directions? You cook dinner and you use a recipe. You go on a flight or to dinner and you don't make reservations? Everybody makes plans, for virtually every aspect of their lives, but for something as important as R, you just free-bag it? Good luck with that.


That's not what I said, not at all. Of course you set goals, gather information, etc. But how do you do this? And remember, you guys are lucky, you have the internet and resources like this now. When mine happened, I had one close friend I could talk to for emotional support, and no real information (that I could find anyway) I had to wing it. Even now it doesn't follow the script, for whatever reason. People throw around this number of two to five years, but I am still dealing with the aftermath of the affair (as in specifically trying to come to terms with some aspects of it) after more than two decades. I'm not still in crisis, I'm not still wondering if we'll make it, I'm just dealing with some aspects of it.

And then she, or I, could have a brain snap tomorrow, meet someone else and it all starts again. I don't expect it, but I didn't expect it last time.

How do you plan for all that? And how do you deal with it and stay close despite the risks? Communication. How do you respond to each new and unexpected challenge together? Communication. How do we form an understanding of what happened to us....what went through our minds to create this situation (and therefore how we avoid a repeat and keep the demon of worrying about it at bay)? Communication. 

I'm not disagreeing with the need to work, research, plan, etc. Heck, I'm here partly because it increases my understanding of what happened to me all those years ago (even though it was very different in many ways back then). Bu maybe I'm in a different space because I didn't come to TAM looking for answers on infidelity. I was actually building a spreadsheet of ideas for nice things to do for my wife. Google led me to such a thread here. When I looked around the site I was drawn to this section for obvious reasons. By the way, the sex in marriage section has some pretty useful stuff too 

The point of me saying "Communication, it's that simple" is not to say you don't need to do anything else. It is that this is THE key.



Badblood said:


> Oh, she's a big fan of Victoria. The trouble (if you can call it that) is that when she buys some new stuff, it automatically becomes a marathon sex session. She models it, then I take it off, then we have sex, ETC. If she has a lot of stuff, it can take a full weekend, just for her to show it to me. Not that I'm complaining. LOL. My golf game has suffered terribly.


OK, you win. How do I plan for this. What's your secret?

My wife knows I am on this site, she doesn't want to come here, but I'm going to make her read your post 



SomedayDig said:


> It seems that some of us in reconciliation don't REALLY know what the f**k we're getting into or how hard it's gonna be or the years of hard work we're gonna go through or the countless sleepless nights after being triggered and having the WS sit by your side till 3am. We don't know a f'ng thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ain't that the truth. But if you value what you have with Regret it is worth it. It is SOOOOOO worth it.


----------



## Wazza

Empty Inside said:


> *"If you think sunshine brings you happiness, then you haven't danced in the rain. "*
> 
> Yep, I think B1 and I are going to dance in the rain.... for a while.... I like dancing and I like rain!


Dancing with you in the rain and in that sexy lingerie you linked to would make B1 very lucky. You should do that for him!

He paid me to post this


----------



## B1

_Posted via Mobile Device_

It's thundering outside, getting ready to storm right now. later....


----------



## Regret214

Saw this on Facebook....










I choose the last!


----------



## SomedayDig

Wazza said:


> Ain't that the truth. But if you value what you have with Regret it is worth it. It is SOOOOOO worth it.


I value it. More than I can ever put into words on a machine spewing them into the interworld.


----------



## B1

Reconciliation = Wife dancing on the back deck in the rain wearing her lingerie, at first I just watched, then I joined in. We actually danced in the rain on the back deck. It was sexy, crazy, and man did she look good. In case I haven't mentioned this, EI is a very beautiful woman.


----------



## Wazza

Yay!!!!!!

You owe me big time for suggesting the combination....or is this just how things go down all the time at your place? 

P.S. she danced wearing lingerie, then you joined in....hopefully just the dancing part?!?!?


----------



## Regret214

B1, you wearing the lingerie too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Wazza said:


> Dancing with you in the rain and in that sexy lingerie you linked to would make B1 very lucky. *You should do that for him!*
> 
> He paid me to post this





betrayed1 said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> It's thundering outside, getting ready to storm right now. later....


Wazza, B1 will tell you that I always like a challenge....... so, ask him how he liked me dancing in the rain, *yes, it did rain,* here, tonight, complete with *thunder* and *lightning* and me on the back deck in my *pink/black VS bra* with a *pink V-String* and a sheer white robe, that quickly came off. And, I sang to him, too!!! Good thing we have a separate door to the deck from our bathroom.... far away from the kitchen door to the deck. Bad thing our 17 y/o son was wondering what all the noise was coming from outside and decided to check on it. He found his less than half-dressed Mom and his Dad with his hands all over her a.................... nevermind!


----------



## SomedayDig

Ummm...Regret...is there anything wrong with a pair of silk boxers?!

Hmmmm?!


----------



## Wazza

Regret214 said:


> B1, you wearing the lingerie too?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bear in mind, the alternative of NOT wearing it may be a worse brain image....


----------



## SomedayDig

For EI and B1

May your dinner taste deeee licious!


----------



## B1

Wazza said:


> Yay!!!!!!
> 
> You owe me big time for suggesting the combination....or is this just how things go down all the time at your place?
> 
> P.S. she danced wearing lingerie, then you joined in....hopefully just the dancing part?!?!?


Yep wazza, I owe you one buddy :smthumbup:


----------



## Wazza

Empty Inside said:


> Wazza, B1 will tell you that I always like a challenge....... so, ask him how he liked me dancing in the rain, *yes, it did rain,* here, tonight, complete with *thunder* and *lightning* and me on the back deck in my *pink/black VS bra* with a *pink V-String* and a sheer white robe, that quickly came off. And, I sang to him, too!!! Good thing we have a separate door to the deck from our bathroom.... far away from the kitchen door to the deck. Bad thing our 17 y/o son was wondering what all the noise was coming from outside and decided to check on it. He found his less than half-dressed Mom and his Dad with his hands all over her a.................... nevermind!


I think I need to read my wife this post too.


----------



## SomedayDig

Wazza said:


> Bear in mind, the alternative of NOT wearing it may be a worse brain image....


I'm wearing a pair of silk pajama bottoms that I bought shortly after Dday.

I don't give a F what anyone says.

I am special.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Ummm...Regret...is there anything wrong with a pair of silk boxers?!
> 
> Hmmmm?!



Who's wearing them? You or Regret? BTW, boxer briefs, on a man, are waaaaaaay better than just boxers.... for obvious reasons!


----------



## Wazza

OK, so a serious reconciliation question.

When a couple meet and fall in love they are living on dopamine. More mature couples bond in part under the influence of oxytocin. In the case of a reconcile, does the dopamine flow again? Does anyone know?


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> For EI and B1
> 
> May your dinner taste deeee licious!


That's hilarious..... I'm thinking he will be damaged for life!

Yeah, the kid retreated to his bedroom, haven't seen him since!!


----------



## B1

Regret214 said:


> B1, you wearing the lingerie too?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nah, shorts and a t-shirt, that's all I need to wear to turn EI on. She'e simple like that  thank goodness because I look awful in the pink panties


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> Who's wearing them? You or Regret? BTW, boxer briefs, on a man, are waaaaaaay better than just boxers.... for obvious reasons!


Last night I asked her to just wear something special for me after the kids went to bed and we watched a movie.

She came down wearing one of my work button down dress shirts and these Shoes.

She's pretty hot.


EDIT: Oh...and I wear the silk boxers in this family. I'm ALPHA dammit!! lol


----------



## Regret214

betrayed1 said:


> Nah, shorts and a t-shirt, that's all I need to wear to turn EI on. She'e simple like that  thank goodness because I look awful in the pink panties


ask Dig about wearing my panties!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Regret214 said:


> ask Dig about wearing my panties!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You did NOT just go there......:rofl:


----------



## SomedayDig

Wazza said:


> OK, so a serious reconciliation question.
> 
> When a couple meet and fall in love they are living on dopamine. More mature couples bond in part under the influence of oxytocin. In the case of a reconcile, does the dopamine flow again? Does anyone know?


I'm a dope...I mean.

Yeah.


----------



## Regret214

Reconciliation is having levity, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

All this cross dressing and it's only Thursday! Going to be a heck of a weekend.


----------



## jh52

This thread is getting as interesting as Bandit's.

Keep on posting !!!:smthumbup:


----------



## SomedayDig

Wazza said:


> All this cross dressing and it's only Thursday! Going to be a heck of a weekend.


I know right?!! Usually I wait til Friday to let Sasha out.


----------



## EI

Wazza said:


> OK, so a serious reconciliation question.
> 
> When a couple meet and fall in love they are living on dopamine. More mature couples bond in part under the influence of oxytocin. In the case of a reconcile, does the dopamine flow again? Does anyone know?



Okay, I have to be very careful when I answer this because we are having some light-hearted fun on this thread, at the moment, and I don't want to ruin it..... but, yes, for B1 and myself we are, immensely, enjoying ourselves in the physical intimacy department. But, you have to understand, that was something that had been missing from our relationship for a very long time.... waaaaaaaay before the (elephant in the room.) Honestly, B1 has always been a bit (that's an understatement) on the reserved side, with me being a little bit on the............... adventurous side. Right now, he is acting like a 17 year sex-crazed teenager, and I am being a typical, 48 y/o pre-menopausal, sexually peaking, nympho..... (of course, I've been that way my whole life..... true story!) 

B1 is very eager to please so, sue me, I'm enjoying every moment of it! 

I've got oxytocin, dopamine, and everything else you can imagine just oooooozing through my veins and I love getting these reactions from B1..... it's all brand new for us...... so, yes, things are "flowing!"

But, let me add, B1 and I are working very hard in all areas of our reconcilation..... every single day..... it's not all _dancing and stripping in the rain!_


----------



## CantSitStill

I like your spunk Empty, I love that you had fun in the rain and sang..I have a very silly fun side and I think Calvin's enjoying that about me now..he's always been so reserved where I like to just let loose and have fun. I was doing my little winning dance gambling tonight and he loved it. I love that he loves this fun side of me. I love that I don't havt to be reserved and can just be be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I'm wearing a pair of silk pajama bottoms that I bought shortly after Dday.
> 
> I don't give a F what anyone says.
> 
> I am special.


_Well, of course you are, Dig, ..... and never let anyone tell you any different! _ _LOL_



SomedayDig said:


> Last night I asked her to just wear something special for me after the kids went to bed and we watched a movie.
> 
> She came down wearing one of my work button down dress shirts and these Shoes.
> 
> She's pretty hot.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Oh...and I wear the silk boxers in this family. I'm ALPHA dammit!! lol



Oh my Hell!!! LOL Yes, the Men's Oxford the nothing except a VS bra underneath or nothing at all..... with a pair of high heels is very effective..............




Regret214 said:


> ask Dig about wearing my panties!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





SomedayDig said:


> You did NOT just go there......:rofl:



_I can't take any more of this............ I'm going to have mind-movies........ of Dig, wearing women's panties.... and I don't even know what he looks like.............
_

After I gave birth to each of the boys, I did wear B1's tighty-whities for a while. They were _soooooooo_ comfy.


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I like your spunk Empty, I love that you had fun in the rain and sang..I have a very silly fun side and I think Calvin's enjoying that about me now..he's always been so reserved where I like to just let loose and have fun. I was doing my little winning dance gambling tonight and he loved it. I love that he loves this fun side of me. I love that I don't havt to be reserved and can just be be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_I suspect that we are an awful lot alike...... with the emphasis on *"awful!"* LOL.................._

I think B1 is enjoying me, now, too! Sometimes, I go to the grocery late in the afternoon just before he gets home from work. In the last few weeks he has called me on his way home, and at least three different times, he has snuck (I know that isn't a word) up on me in the store and followed me from behind.... just to see me walk! Well, and to make sure that I was really at the grocery................


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I know right?!! Usually I wait til Friday to let Sasha out.


*Sasha?????*


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> That's not what I said, not at all. Of course you set goals, gather information, etc. But how do you do this? And remember, you guys are lucky, you have the internet and resources like this now. When mine happened, I had one close friend I could talk to for emotional support, and no real information (that I could find anyway) I had to wing it. Even now it doesn't follow the script, for whatever reason. People throw around this number of two to five years, but I am still dealing with the aftermath of the affair (as in specifically trying to come to terms with some aspects of it) after more than two decades. I'm not still in crisis, I'm not still wondering if we'll make it, I'm just dealing with some aspects of it.
> 
> And then she, or I, could have a brain snap tomorrow, meet someone else and it all starts again. I don't expect it, but I didn't expect it last time.
> 
> How do you plan for all that? And how do you deal with it and stay close despite the risks? Communication. How do you respond to each new and unexpected challenge together? Communication. How do we form an understanding of what happened to us....what went through our minds to create this situation (and therefore how we avoid a repeat and keep the demon of worrying about it at bay)? Communication.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing with the need to work, research, plan, etc. Heck, I'm here partly because it increases my understanding of what happened to me all those years ago (even though it was very different in many ways back then). Bu maybe I'm in a different space because I didn't come to TAM looking for answers on infidelity. I was actually building a spreadsheet of ideas for nice things to do for my wife. Google led me to such a thread here. When I looked around the site I was drawn to this section for obvious reasons. By the way, the sex in marriage section has some pretty useful stuff too
> 
> The point of me saying "Communication, it's that simple" is not to say you don't need to do anything else. It is that this is THE key.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, you win. How do I plan for this. What's your secret?
> 
> My wife knows I am on this site, she doesn't want to come here, but I'm going to make her read your post
> 
> 
> 
> Ain't that the truth. But if you value what you have with Regret it is worth it. It is SOOOOOO worth it.


Waz, my secret is my charm and my winning smile. LOL. Actually it is my GF. She is the best thing that has happened to me in years. I've known her for only a few months, but I know her better and more intimately than I did my ex after 18 years. What my ex showed me and the rest of the world was a front, a fascade, what my GF shows me is the real deal. She lays everything on the line, because she is a brave soul. After my ex's affair, I was a basket-case of stress and anger, from the moment I met her ( gf), everything changed. Every day we learn more about each other and every night we learn how to please each other more. I am one lucky motherf**ker.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Waz, my secret is my charm and my winning smile. LOL. Actually it is my GF. She is the best thing that has happened to me in years. I've known her for only a few months, but I know her better and more intimately than I did my ex after 18 years. What my ex showed me and the rest of the world was a front, a fascade, what my GF shows me is the real deal. She lays everything on the line, because she is a brave soul. After my ex's affair, I was a basket-case of stress and anger, from the moment I met her ( gf), everything changed. Every day we learn more about each other and every night we learn how to please each other more. I am one lucky motherf**ker.


I read my wife your post...she has a shopping trip planned.....somehow after what I've just read about Dig, Regret, EI and B1 it seems like an anti-climax.....


----------



## B1

Reconciliation and rebuilding trust.

EI has been holding back the fact a friend, our special needs sons caregiver (she assists in getting him ready in the mornings) is starting a Bunko once a month. This is a girls only bunko and she has asked EI if she would like to play. EI has been nervous about it every since, afraid to ask me if she could go. I think that is part of what's been bothering her, fear of asking.

She was afraid to even ask me if she could go. When she did I said "well, it does make me a little nervous just becuase it's a girls thing, a girls night out thing...but......I really don't mind." It's not like I can't ask the girl about the night if I have too. Am I crazy? I want to trust again and I think this is an opportunity to do so. Plus it would give EI some time away, time with friends which she craves so much. She has been a ball of anxiety trying to monitor her time and is stressing her self out making sure I know her every move.

I really don't think EI will do this again, ever. I believe her and yes, I trust her too. Our counselor said my trust will go up and down for a while, right now I guess it's up. I know EI needs this time, she needs friends, she needs to get out, and we do get out a LOT more, but she needs girl friends too. 

I am ok with this, just wanting to get input and feedback on trusting again.


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> *Sasha?????*


It's a bad inside joke between Regret and me. Maybe she'll PM you about it one day...:rofl:

Oh, and sorry about the mind movies compliments of Regret. Quick story to make it burn in though...

We were at my Mom's camp and there are a ton of other campers that are friends of hers. Regret and I used to go up when we could for a weekend. One night while sitting around the campfire, Regret says she has to go pee. When she comes back she holds her hand out to me and being flirty, hands me her g-string she was wearing under her skirt. Not to be one upped, I ran behind one of the trucks parked there and stripped down and put them on.

Needless to say, taking a drunken midnight jog around the campgrounds almost got the cops called on us. Which actually happened often enough


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> Reconciliation and rebuilding trust.
> 
> EI has been holding back the fact a friend, our special needs sons caregiver (she assists in getting him ready in the mornings) is starting a Bunko once a month. This is a girls only bunko and she has asked EI if she would like to play. EI has been nervous about it every since, afraid to ask me if she could go. I think that is part of what's been bothering her, fear of asking.
> 
> She was afraid to even ask me if she could go. When she did I said "well, it does make me a little nervous just becuase it's a girls thing, a girls night out thing...but......I really don't mind." It's not like I can't ask the girl about the night if I have too. Am I crazy? I want to trust again and I think this is an opportunity to do so. Plus it would give EI some time away, time with friends which she craves so much. She has been a ball of anxiety trying to monitor her time and is stressing her self out making sure I know her every move.
> 
> I really don't think EI will do this again, ever. I believe her and yes, I trust her too. Our counselor said my trust will go up and down for a while, right now I guess it's up. I know EI needs this time, she needs friends, she needs to get out, and we do get out a LOT more, but she needs girl friends too.
> 
> I am ok with this, just wanting to get input and feedback on trusting again.


A couple months ago, Regret got an email from some of her work colleagues who wanted to go to dinner. All girl thing. One of the toughest things for me was saying it was okay to go. Mainly because Dday was so recent and GNO a couple days prior to that. I was a bit of a mess also because on two occasions of Regret going to the xOM's house, she claimed to be going to visit work colleagues.

We agreed that it would be okay to go as long as her GPS tracker was turned on and she would text when she got to the restaurant and when she was leaving. We both know how long it takes to get to and from the place, as well since it's about 5 miles from our house.

In the end, I was a bit of a wreck and had my laptop tuned in to the GPS tracking website for a couple hours. When she got home, she could tell I was anxious and immediately sat down to talk to me about it and comfort me.

At some point we begin to trust. It's not easy. That's the sucky part cuz it should be. I think EI, like Regret, is in a totally different place now than they were. The affair and it's fallout is plain to see and their fog is gone. They know our needs and they know how fragile we are.

I think it's okay to let EI go out...I think it's okay if you're anxious about it.


----------



## jh52

Just adding my 2 cents is that you will forgive -- but never forget. 

Trust is something we take for granted till it is broken. Trust is earned by words, actions and deeds. These are repeated over and over again and the trust continues to build.

You want to trust --- and you will --- but you will also never forget !!


----------



## B1

Empty Inside said:


> Okay, I have to be very careful when I answer this because we are having some light-hearted fun on this thread, at the moment, and I don't want to ruin it..... but, yes, for B1 and myself we are, immensely, enjoying ourselves in the physical intimacy department. But, you have to understand, that was something that had been missing from our relationship for a very long time.... waaaaaaaay before the (elephant in the room.) Honestly, B1 has always been a bit (that's an understatement) on the reserved side, with me being a little bit on the............... adventurous side. Right now, he is acting like a 17 year sex-crazed teenager, and I am being a typical, 48 y/o pre-menopausal, sexually peaking, nympho..... (of course, I've been that way my whole life..... true story!)
> 
> B1 is very eager to please so, sue me, I'm enjoying every moment of it!
> 
> *I've got oxytocin, dopamine, and everything else you can imagine just oooooozing through my veins* and I love getting these reactions from B1..... it's all brand new for us...... so, yes, things are "flowing!"
> 
> But, let me add, B1 and I are working very hard in all areas of our reconcilation..... every single day..... it's not all _dancing and stripping in the rain!_


I know that dopamine is running wild in a WS during an A. So, this subject was going to be a rough one for me. I still partly believe that A sex, A everything since it's a fantasy world, and it's new, it's exciting may always be better than what we have now. Plus within an A, everyone is at there best, no bills, no problems, no kids, no worries, and sex is not a problem either when you are at the xOM house and know one else lives there and he's popping viagra...you can be free, unlike at home where there are kids running around and bills, problems, etc. just so F'king unfair...getting upset now.

But I am glad to read EI's response, that does make me feel a little better. Especially the bolded part. I wasn't sure she would say that, no, honestly, I didn't think it was true. How can I compete with A sex and a house without bounderies?


----------



## BjornFree

To be honest B1 affair sex is actually bad sex coupled with emotional connection that fools a person into thinkin that they're having the best sex of their life(Blame it on the dopamine). I think that It can be compared to a porn addict watching mediocre trashy videos but coming back for more because he's addicted.

In reality EI probably feels more comfortable with you because you know her so well and add a good mix of reading you two behave like newlyweds  I think you both are probably having the best sex of your life.


----------



## Wazza

On the going out thing....you can't keep your spouse in jail. I still sometimes wonder when she's late home or whatever, but I feel I just have to deal with it.

Once I understood how much the affair had hurt her it became easier. I am fairly sure she would never go back there.


----------



## Badblood

Holding back? WTF is that all about? Frankly I'm really surprised about this, and about EI withholding info from you, FOR ANY REASON. IMO, this is a huge step backwards. Regardless of the GNO (which is a separate issue) , she should have told you the instant she knew about it, given the nature and newness of your R. She should withhold NOTHING and have NO secrets....period. I am surprised that you are not outraged. B1 this is not something you should rationalize or excuse, if you do, it sets a very dangerous precedent. AS the BS, YOU set the agenda, until YOU are comfortable.


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> On the going out thing....you can't keep your spouse in jail. I still sometimes wonder when she's late home or whatever, but I feel I just have to deal with it.
> 
> Once I understood how much the affair had hurt her it became easier. I am fairly sure she would never go back there.


You just deal with it? How many times have we heard , on TAM, a WS say the same thing? Just deal with it, or just get over it. Waz, this doesn't sound healthy at all.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> You just deal with it? How many times have we heard , on TAM, a WS say the same thing? Just deal with it, or just get over it. Waz, this doesn't sound healthy at all.


Well, hang on. It isn't the WS saying it.

Is there a need for accountability, absolutely.

Does that extend to never letting my wife out of my sight again, ever? If not, then what lines do you draw?

I wasn't saying "Rugsweep away". I was saying there comes a time when you need to grant a measure of trust again. And when you do it, part of you will worry. It requires some thought, and dare I say it, communication.

I certainly wouldn't relax the reins until the fog is long gone though.

You are forming the opinion my marriage is a basket case


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> I know that dopamine is running wild in a WS during an A. So, this subject was going to be a rough one for me. I still partly believe that A sex, A everything since it's a fantasy world, and it's new, it's exciting may always be better than what we have now. Plus within an A, everyone is at there best, no bills, no problems, no kids, no worries, and sex is not a problem either when you are at the xOM house and know one else lives there and he's popping viagra...you can be free, unlike at home where there are kids running around and bills, problems, etc. just so F'king unfair...getting upset now.
> 
> But I am glad to read EI's response, that does make me feel a little better. Especially the bolded part. I wasn't sure she would say that, no, honestly, I didn't think it was true.* How can I compete with A sex and a house without bounderies?*


Well, brother you don't need to compete now do ya? That sh-t's over and gone. EI is out of her fog and...well, I'm just gathering by her posts in this thread, she's pretty into you!!

Now that she knows she was living in fantasy land, guess what? There is no competition. Period.


----------



## Wazza

I'm sorry for posting the dopamine question. I didn't mean to trigger anyone. Thoughtless of me.


----------



## SomedayDig

By the way B1...I don't think EI being hesitant about asking permission to go to bunko (I don't even know what that is...lol) is in any way backsliding. I don't see it as a huge step backwards, either. I see it as she was invited to bunko and was worried about bringing it up to you. Simple as that.

It's not like she was planning on attending without asking you or anything of the such. Therefore, I see no reason you should be "outraged" one bit.


----------



## B1

Badblood said:


> Holding back? WTF is that all about? Frankly I'm really surprised about this, and about EI withholding info from you, FOR ANY REASON. IMO, this is a huge step backwards. Regardless of the GNO (which is a separate issue) , she should have told you the instant she knew about it, given the nature and newness of your R. She should withhold NOTHING and have NO secrets....period. I am surprised that you are not outraged. B1 this is not something you should rationalize or excuse, if you do, it sets a very dangerous precedent. AS the BS, YOU set the agenda, until YOU are comfortable.


Sorry BB but why would I be outraged? holding back may have been the wrong words. She was scared..i.e. not going to even ask if she could go, she didn't feel worthy to ask or even to be able to go etc. 

Agreed on the setting agenda, our counselor even pretty much said the same thing. EI isn't being punished though, that's not what R is about, or what I am about. We are about moving forward, and this isn't a set back in the least. 

Ei, being EI would like to do this but didn't feel like it was possible so wasn't even going to bring it up. That's not right or wrong, someone just asked her if she would like to play bunko, not sure why I should be upset about that. She in turn knew this was a sore spot and so didn't feel like it was even a possibility, that I would just say no. So why ask then, in her mind just let it go and forget about it.

But....we have made such big improvements and I was telling her I trust her more and more, so she went ahead and asked. Telling me she was asked a week or so ago but just kept putting the lady off because she knew it wouldn't be worth opening that can of worms up.

No, I'm not upset, no reason to be in my mind. EI has been a mess the last few days trying to overcompensate for everything, she is attempting to be so transparent that's it's affecting her ability to even get common things done. She needs this and I don't have a problem with it.


----------



## Regret214

In order to be trusted, a WS needs the opportunity to prove trustworthiness through their actions. Certain things need to be in place to alleviate the BSs worries such as GPS and check ins, but how else can trustworthiness be earned? IMO, EI doesn't want to stress you out more than she already has, she's not trying to hide anything.


----------



## Acabado

> she's pretty into you!!


Man it's sooo clear!
Trust her. That's it. Feel what you have to feel but trust her.
BTW what a bunch of pervs here lately.


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> Well, brother you don't need to compete now do ya? That sh-t's over and gone. EI is out of her fog and...well, I'm just gathering by her posts in this thread, she's pretty into you!!
> 
> Now that she knows she was living in fantasy land, guess what? There is no competition. Period.


Now your starting to sound like my therapist 

btw: Thanks I needed a littel kick in the behind!


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> *Now your starting to sound like my therapist*
> 
> btw: Thanks I needed a littel kick in the behind!


Hmmm...maybe I'll start a side gig!! :rofl:


or write a book....


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> Holding back? *WTF* is that all about? Frankly I'm really surprised about this, and about EI *withholding* info from you, *FOR ANY REASON*. IMO, this is a *huge step backwards*. Regardless of the GNO (which is a separate issue) , she should have told you the *instant she knew about it*, given the nature and newness of your R. She should withhold *NOTHING* and have NO secrets....period. I am surprised that you are not *outraged*. B1 this is not something you should *rationalize* or *excuse*, if you do, it sets a very *dangerous precedent*. AS the BS, YOU set the agenda, until YOU are comfortable.



BB, I call a big foul on that comment!  "Holding Back" was simply of choice of words for B1. I didn't hold back anything.  Our son's home health aide, who I adore because she makes my and my son's life so much less complicated, asked me earlier this week if I'd like to join a brand new all women's Bunko that will play once a month. It's not in a bar, or a restaurant, it's in our homes. We would alternate using each players home.... so I would host once a year. This is a woman who is in our home for about 30 minutes a day, five days a week, for the last couple of years, and she knows nothing of our personal situation. But, in that time you get a feel for someone's character and even our MC says that we both need to extend our personal network of friendships, together and separately.

I don't know if you are aware of *my* 5 "F's." It was the five important factors that I felt led to my vulnerability, lack of boundaries and, ultimately, poor choice to have an affair. I think I posted it on another thread. My 5 "F's" are *F*amily,* F*aith, *F*inances, *F*riendships and, finally, *F*idelity. In recent years, I/we/mostly me have suffered extreme losses in all of those areas. As each one of those foundations began to weaken more and more, so did my inner strength, motivation, hope, etc...., everything. I began to feel like "I" didn't even exist anymore. Without reiterating "everything," it is important that I/we begin to work, together, to rebuild in all of those areas... and we are. 

If I had told B1 the *instant I knew about it*, it would have required me dropping our freshly showered, wet son on the the bathroom floor and waking B1 up, because my day starts an hour before his. I didn't even know if I wanted to play Bunko, so I thought about it for a day or two, then, when I decided that it would be fun and good for me, then, I began to worry that B1 might be uncomfortable about it. Normally, B1 never had any issues with anything that I do, but the circumstances have changed, obviously. I had a few bad/tearful days earlier this week, grieving over the anniversary of my brother's death and that had caused B1 to trigger a bit, I believe. I think that when I become tearful, (because by nature, if things are going reasonably well, I am a happy, optimistic person) B1 worries that I am thinking about the OM. I wasn't. So, before therapy on Tuesday, B1 asked me what was wrong and I told him that "C" had asked me to play and that I wanted to. I could see that he struggled, momentarily, and then he expressed his fears.... because he can't help it, it hurts, he's feels insecure, he wants to trust, but he is scared and I completely understand that. I wish that I could make his pain go away. But, I can't. I can only love him, reassure him, and be faithful and, hopefully, I pray that time will ease his breaking heart.

With all of that having been said, and I do believe that I do a very thorough job of explaining myself.... I never lack for "words," I think it is clear that I withheld nothing. 

I have come to appreciate you, BB, for your genuine concern about, both the BS and WS, and their need for personal growth. I do try to read between the lines of your, sometimes, over reactive responses. But, this was absolutely inflammatory and unnecessary. Rather than type it all out, I simply bolded what I thought was over the top. I had no intent to deceive or withhold anything.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Well, brother you don't need to compete now do ya? That sh-t's over and gone. EI is out of her fog and...well, I'm just gathering by her posts in this thread, she's pretty into you!!
> 
> Now that she knows she was living in fantasy land, guess what? There is no competition. Period.



Well said! Nothing to add....... well,.............. I could always add something.... I'm seldom at a loss for words!


----------



## EI

Wazza said:


> I'm sorry for posting the dopamine question. I didn't mean to trigger anyone. Thoughtless of me.



No, please don't be sorry. I think that my honest answer was good for B1. I also think that is one of the reasons that people find themselves on a forum like TAM. They come looking for answers about their own situations and the more forthcoming and honest people are, the more helpful the information is. It is certainly a unique experience for both of us to be posting, together, about our personal lives. B1 and I share personal information, here, that we could never share with our family and friends. 

Wazza, in the past, I have taken the time to thank individual posters for their comments, support and encouragement. I think that you add a great deal to this forum and I truly admire the way that you keep a firm hold of your personal beliefs and are not swayed by the words and actions (and over reactions) of others. I really enjoy reading your posts. I think that you should encourage your wife to join in the discussion. I think it would be interesting! Thanks for taking an interest in our story!


----------



## CantSitStill

This is a good topic..Calvin and I have discussed this..I feel if I go out with my little sister and her hubby and their friends ever again that Calvin would sit at home and worry. I would love for him to come with but he ge+s up early and he's tired. He says it's up to me. I say, I'll only do that if you promise to spy on me. It's crazy. I know I won't do anything wrong but I feel this need to prove it to Calvin so I don't think it'll be happening. I just don't ever want him to worry. He has enough on his mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Hmmm...maybe I'll start a side gig!! :rofl:
> 
> 
> *or write a book....*



You've gotta get in line... I'm way ahead of ya on the whole TAM mini-series and the book.... My therapist told me so.... For the last three years he has been encouraging me to write a book. Do you think it's because he wants me to _stop talking to him._   :scratchhead:  

Whatever???


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> It's a bad inside joke between Regret and me. Maybe she'll PM you about it one day...:rofl:
> 
> *Oh, and sorry about the mind movies compliments of Regret. Quick story to make it burn in though...*
> 
> We were at my Mom's camp and there are a ton of other campers that are friends of hers. Regret and I used to go up when we could for a weekend. One night while sitting around the campfire, Regret says she has to go pee. When she comes back she holds her hand out to me and being flirty, hands me her g-string she was wearing under her skirt. Not to be one upped, I ran behind one of the trucks parked there and stripped down and put them on.
> 
> Needless to say, taking a drunken midnight jog around the campgrounds almost got the cops called on us. Which actually happened often enough



_Oooooooh, my eyes are burning.............. LOL _


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## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> _Oooooooh, my eyes are burning.............. LOL _


I can imagine they still tell that story around the campfire up there. That had to be almost a decade ago. I can also imagine the picture of me running around in so scant an article of clothing that their retinas were permanently damaged!!

:rofl:


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## daisygirl 41

Thankyou all for this thread. I haven't contributed but am reading every post.
My H and I are 5 months into R after his devastating A. We have been married nearly 19 years. 
I don't post very often now but am still reading and learning. 
Our R is going well. My only 'complaint' if you can call it that is that Hs communication still isn't as good as it could be. He never talks or brings up the A but will answer any questions I've got and he is very loving and comforting. H is back to Pre A normality, the demons have gone and we too are like newly weds.
My biggest problem though is he still works with her. He hasn't been in work for nearly 12 weeks now. He took some sick leave and holidays and he's got about another month left. He is looking for another job, not easy in the current climate. I'm already dreading the day he goes back to work. We are doing so well, but as long as she is there I fear wears never really going to be able to move forward completely.
Again thanks for all your posts. You are all very inspiring
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

DG...that's gotta be tough to deal with, but you're right - one cannot simply walk out of a job without having another in these times. I know, I know...everyone will say the wayward spouse must leave the job immediately and financial burdens be damned.

Then comes reality. And its a cold punch in the face.

He is looking for another job, which is great. He is not bringing up the affair for one reason, I think: Pain. He knows it hurts to bring it up for both of you. I'm not saying give him a pass on it, but have you specifically asked him about it? I mean, we're trying to reconcile here, and communication on both ends must be forthcoming and honest.

Let him know that you have such a "complaint". What could it hurt. Maybe he just doesn't know how to broach the topic with you and telling him such might be just what he needs to hear.

It's a long road this thing called reconciliation. And there's no map or GPS.


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## Badblood

Wazza said:


> Well, hang on. It isn't the WS saying it.
> 
> Is there a need for accountability, absolutely.
> 
> Does that extend to never letting my wife out of my sight again, ever? If not, then what lines do you draw?
> 
> I wasn't saying "Rugsweep away". I was saying there comes a time when you need to grant a measure of trust again. And when you do it, part of you will worry. It requires some thought, and dare I say it, communication.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't relax the reins until the fog is long gone though.
> 
> You are forming the opinion my marriage is a basket case


I really don't think your marriage is a basket-case, Waz. But the way you phrased it sounded a lot like rug-sweeping. I'm glad you clarified.


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## CantSitStill

Well are you guys saying I should bring up the affair? That seems odd to me since I can't stand the bastard OM. I mean when he wants to talk about it I'm open to talk about it but why would a WS want to talk about the affair. Not exactly a fun topic. I'm asking because this is something I never heard of. hmm just seems odd to me that the BS wants their WS to go on talking about it all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

CantSitStill said:


> Well are you guys saying I should bring up the affair? That seems odd to me since I can't stand the bastard OM. I mean when he wants to talk about it I'm open to talk about it but why would a WS want to talk about the affair. Not exactly a fun topic. I'm asking because this is something I never heard of. hmm just seems odd to me that the BS wants their WS to go on talking about it all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The greatest pain of being a BS is the total destruction of trust. You know things are going in a direction that is anathema to you, your spouse is doing things that tear you apart, and on top of that is lying to you. You probably can read your spouse enough to know they are not being truthful, but you don't know what the truth is.

Every time the spouse omits something, dances around a topic, or provides a detail that doesn't add up because they are concealing things, your first reaction is "Oh sh*t another lie" and a sick feeling in your gut. So even if the WS is trying to spare the BS feelings, it's still like taking the dagger they stabbed you with and twisting it while it's still in you.

You have to talk about it enough to get the feeling that there has been disclosure, that it is not the elephant in the room.

This is not to lessen the pain that led you to become a WS, but as a BS it's a long time before you can really get past your own pain enough to really empathise with your WS's pain.

Does this answer your question?


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## SomedayDig

CantSitStill said:


> Well are you guys saying I should bring up the affair? That seems odd to me since I can't stand the bastard OM. I mean when he wants to talk about it I'm open to talk about it but why would a WS want to talk about the affair. Not exactly a fun topic. I'm asking because this is something I never heard of. hmm just seems odd to me that the BS wants their WS to go on talking about it all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For me, CSS...I sometimes find myself triggered by something. The worst thing for Regret to do is just sit there and not say anything. She will often just say, "I'm sorry I hurt you so badly" or "I'm sorry that my affair has caused you this pain". That, to me, is talking about the affair. I'm certainly not saying that during a commercial for Young and the Restless that she should look over at me and say, "Okay, and one time xOM and I...."

Yeah. Not talk like that kinda talk.


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## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> BB, I call a big foul on that comment!  "Holding Back" was simply of choice of words for B1. I didn't hold back anything.  Our son's home health aide, who I adore because she makes my and my son's life so much less complicated, asked me earlier this week if I'd like to join a brand new all women's Bunko that will play once a month. It's not in a bar, or a restaurant, it's in our homes. We would alternate using each players home.... so I would host once a year. This is a woman who is in our home for about 30 minutes a day, five days a week, for the last couple of years, and she knows nothing of our personal situation. But, in that time you get a feel for someone's character and even our MC says that we both need to extend our personal network of friendships, together and separately.
> 
> I don't know if you are aware of *my* 5 "F's." It was the five important factors that I felt led to my vulnerability, lack of boundaries and, ultimately, poor choice to have an affair. I think I posted it on another thread. My 5 "F's" are *F*amily,* F*aith, *F*inances, *F*riendships and, finally, *F*idelity. In recent years, I/we/mostly me have suffered extreme losses in all of those areas. As each one of those foundations began to weaken more and more, so did my inner strength, motivation, hope, etc...., everything. I began to feel like "I" didn't even exist anymore. Without reiterating "everything," it is important that I/we begin to work, together, to rebuild in all of those areas... and we are.
> 
> If I had told B1 the *instant I knew about it*, it would have required me dropping our freshly showered, wet son on the the bathroom floor and waking B1 up, because my day starts an hour before his. I didn't even know if I wanted to play Bunko, so I thought about it for a day or two, then, when I decided that it would be fun and good for me, then, I began to worry that B1 might be uncomfortable about it. Normally, B1 never had any issues with anything that I do, but the circumstances have changed, obviously. I had a few bad/tearful days earlier this week, grieving over the anniversary of my brother's death and that had caused B1 to trigger a bit, I believe. I think that when I become tearful, (because by nature, if things are going reasonably well, I am a happy, optimistic person) B1 worries that I am thinking about the OM. I wasn't. So, before therapy on Tuesday, B1 asked me what was wrong and I told him that "C" had asked me to play and that I wanted to. I could see that he struggled, momentarily, and then he expressed his fears.... because he can't help it, it hurts, he's feels insecure, he wants to trust, but he is scared and I completely understand that. I wish that I could make his pain go away. But, I can't. I can only love him, reassure him, and be faithful and, hopefully, I pray that time will ease his breaking heart.
> 
> With all of that having been said, and I do believe that I do a very thorough job of explaining myself.... I never lack for "words," I think it is clear that I withheld nothing.
> 
> I have come to appreciate you, BB, for your genuine concern about, both the BS and WS, and their need for personal growth. I do try to read between the lines of your, sometimes, over reactive responses. But, this was absolutely inflammatory and unnecessary. Rather than type it all out, I simply bolded what I thought was over the top. I had no intent to deceive or withhold anything.


EI, there are two separate issues here. 1. a trust/communication issue 2. the GNO/bunko issue. I have no problem with a WS going to some kind of public or private event, as long as the opposite sex are not present. "clubbing", or Bar-hopping , or nothing similar should be done until the BS is completely comfortable with it, if ever. The first issue is far more troubling. How many , many, many times have we heard the same rationale used here on TAM. I didn't tell my BS about something because, A. It will worry/hurt him/her B. It will make him/her angry/stressed or C. things have been going so good/bad , that I didn't want to rock the boat. Does anybody think that this is transparency? Transparency is exactly that, complete openess, and it is the very foundation of R, IMO. EI , you should have told B1 about this as soon as you found out, so that you BOTH could decide if it was something that you BOTH are comfortable with. Nobody asked you to drop a baby, that's just silly. But you need to remember that every lie, every piece of info, or troubling thought withheld, is another brick in the wall. So my advice is to NOT EVEN START. Tell each other everything good, bad or indifferent. EI, I know you never meant to deceive, but but this kind of thinking should be nipped in the bud.


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## CantSitStill

ok ok I misunderstood. Gotcha lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Badblood said:


> EI, there are two separate issues here. 1. a trust/communication issue 2. the GNO/bunko issue. I have no problem with a WS going to some kind of public or private event, as long as the opposite sex are not present. "clubbing", or Bar-hopping , or nothing similar should be done until the BS is completely comfortable with it, if ever. The first issue is far more troubling. How many , many, many times have we heard the same rationale used here on TAM. I didn't tell my BS about something because, A. It will worry/hurt him/her B. It will make him/her angry/stressed or C. things have been going so good/bad , that I didn't want to rock the boat. Does anybody think that this is transparency? Transparency is exactly that, complete openess, and it is the very foundation of R, IMO. EI , you should have told B1 about this as soon as you found out, so that you BOTH could decide if it was something that you BOTH are comfortable with. Nobody asked you to drop a baby, that's just silly. But you need to remember that every lie, every piece of info, or troubling thought withheld, is another brick in the wall. So my advice is to NOT EVEN START. Tell each other everything good, bad or indifferent. EI, I know you never meant to deceive, but but this kind of thinking should be nipped in the bud.


I'm tired of repeating myself. I did nothing wrong in the handling of this.... *NOTHING*, I thought about it.... decided if I even wanted to play, decided that I did, then I brought it up to B1. I was a bit apprehensive, because I knew that it might "trigger" some insecurity. We discussed it. He decided that if I wanted to play that it was up to me. I told him that I would do whatever he needed me to in order for him to feel more secure.... GPS, Facetime on my cell phone, discussing the Bunko starting and ending times with our home health aid, whatever he needs. I never lied or withheld any information. Sometimes, a molehill is just a molehill. Whether I play Bunko with the girls, inside of a private home where no males are present, may or may not be a big deal. The way that I brought it up to him WAS NOT. Now, I am not going to discuss this further. We can agree to disagree!


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## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> I'm tired of repeating myself. I did nothing wrong in the handling of this.... *NOTHING*, I thought about it.... decided if I even wanted to play, decided that I did, then I brought it up to B1. I was a bit apprehensive, because I knew that it might "trigger" some insecurity. We discussed it. He decided that if I wanted to play that it was up to me. I told him that I would do whatever he needed me to in order for him to feel more secure.... GPS, Facetime on my cell phone, discussing the Bunko starting and ending times with our home health aid, whatever he needs. I never lied or withheld any information. Sometimes, a molehill is just a molehill. Whether I play Bunko with the girls, inside of a private home where no males are present, may or may not be a big deal. The way that I brought it up to him WAS NOT. Now, I am not going to discuss this further. We can agree to disagree!


Ummm can I be all foreign and ask: "What in the heck in Bunko, and why might it trigger such a strong reaction in some people at TAM?:scratchhead:


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thankyou all for this thread. I haven't contributed but am reading every post.
> My H and I are 5 months into R after his devastating A. We have been married nearly 19 years.
> I don't post very often now but am still reading and learning.
> Our R is going well. My only 'complaint' if you can call it that is that Hs communication still isn't as good as it could be. He never talks or brings up the A but will answer any questions I've got and he is very loving and comforting. H is back to Pre A normality, the demons have gone and we too are like newly weds.
> My biggest problem though is he still works with her. He hasn't been in work for nearly 12 weeks now. He took some sick leave and holidays and he's got about another month left. He is looking for another job, not easy in the current climate. I'm already dreading the day he goes back to work. We are doing so well, but as long as she is there I fear wears never really going to be able to move forward completely.
> Again thanks for all your posts. You are all very inspiring
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am so sorry Daisy Girl. After watching B1 go through the pain of being a BS these last few months, I find myself feeling compassion and heartache for every BS here. I feel indebted to them and if there is anything that I might say to help a BS understand the psyche of a WS then I'd like to try. I can say that for me, I don't want to talk about the A. It's obviously something that hurts my husband terribly and I don't want to bring it up. But, because I love him, if he brings it up, then we will discuss it as long and as often as he needs. Because B1 loves me, sometimes, he will try not to "burden" me with his hurts, insecurities, fears and pain. He tries very hard to "give me a break" when he knows he has been hammering away for a day or two. Because I love him, I can tell when he is distant and I know it is because he is keeping it all inside. I don't let him do that. I go to him and ask him how he is feeling, what he is thinking, what is he afraid of.... and we talk about it. Wazza says it the best...... it's communication. It doesn't solve everything, but without it, you have nothing to build on.


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## SomedayDig

MattMatt said:


> Ummm can I be all foreign and ask: "What in the heck in Bunko, and why might it trigger such a strong reaction in some people at TAM?:scratchhead:


I know what it is now!!!


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## MattMatt

SomedayDig said:


> I know what it is now!!!


Damn it. Now I go Google. _Mutter... mumble... stupid Internet._

Aha! It's the game my aunt from America taught us! "Snake eyes!" "Round the corner!" 

Suburban Moms Forge Bonds Over Bunco

Can't quite see what the fuss was over. Only an 'iniquitous' game of chance!:rofl:


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## SomedayDig

LMAO!! Goog is your friend.

Oh...for the record, Regret and I are watching our favorite movie. "The Matrix".

Hence my Matrix quote pages and pages ago.


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## MattMatt

SomedayDig said:


> LMAO!! Goog is your friend.
> 
> Oh...for the record, Regret and I are watching our favorite movie. "The Matrix".
> 
> Hence my Matrix quote pages and pages ago.


Haven't seem a film (aka movie) in years.


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## EI

MattMatt said:


> Ummm can I be all foreign and ask: "What in the heck in Bunko, and why might it trigger such a strong reaction in some people at TAM?:scratchhead:


It's a silly game where you have tables of 4 (usually 3 tables.... 12 players in total.) You roll dice and you start with one's, seeing how many one's you can roll until one of the players gets to 21. Then, you change tables with the winning two of the four players switching partners and the losing two players switching partners and move to the next table and start rolling two's...... yada, yada, yada..... You're basically switching partners and tables all night until you roll up to the six's. Everyone chips in $, usually $10 per player. At the end of the game, after one or two rounds of one's through six's, whoever has the most points gets the money!!! There is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and the money is divided. There is usually food and drink involved and it is just a good time. A few years ago B1 and I were in a couples Bunko and we had a blast..... we added a little twist of a prized "Bra" that must be worn by whomever rolled a "natural Bunko." the men loved wearing it the most. If it was Thanksgiving, the bra might have a turkey on it. If it was around Christmas, it might have ornaments and jingle bells dangling from it..... Easter eggs, whatever.......

The game of Bunko is not the trigger. It's going out without having your spouse present. I understand the concern so early into the reconciliation.... but the whole idea suggested by BB of going out alone "if ever" is absurd. You cannot cage a human being. And, I am here to tell you that if someone wants to be unfaithful.... they will find a way. You want your partner to be faithful because they choose to be faithful.... not because you don't allow them to be anything else. If B1 did not want me to play, right now, because it is just too soon for him to be comfortable... then, I wouldn't go. Because, I love him and I want him to feel secure. But, if 2 years down the road he was still hesitant to let me out of his site for any reason, then I would have cause for concern. Truth is.... I miss him when he is at work, now. I can't wait for him to come home. That's new for me.... I haven't felt that way in many, many years. I like it. So, we wing this one day at a time......................


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## TBT

MattMatt said:


> Damn it. Now I go Google. _Mutter... mumble... stupid Internet._
> 
> Aha! It's the game my aunt from America taught us! "Snake eyes!" "Round the corner!"
> 
> Suburban Moms Forge Bonds Over Bunco
> 
> Can't quite see what the fuss was over. Only an 'iniquitous' game of chance!:rofl:


Anytime I see "bunco" used I think of police and con artists.


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## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> It's a silly game where you have tables of 4 (usually 3 tables.... 12 players in total.) You roll dice and you start with one's, seeing how many one's you can roll until one of the players gets to 21. Then, you change tables with the winning two of the four players switching partners and the losing two players switching partners and move to the next table and start rolling two's...... yada, yada, yada..... You're basically switching partners and tables all night until you roll up to the six's. Everyone chips in $, usually $10 per player. At the end of the game, after one or two rounds of one's through six's, whoever has the most points gets the money!!! There is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and the money is divided. There is usually food and drink involved and it is just a good time. A few years ago B1 and I were in a couples Bunko and we had a blast..... we added a little twist of a prized "Bra" that must be worn by whomever rolled a "natural Bunko." the men loved wearing it the most. If it was Thanksgiving, the bra might have a turkey on it. If it was around Christmas, it might have ornaments and jingle bells dangling from it..... Easter eggs, whatever.......
> 
> The game of Bunko is not the trigger. It's going out without having your spouse present. I understand the concern so early into the reconciliation.... but the whole idea suggested by BB of going out alone "if ever" is absurd. You cannot cage a human being. And, I am here to tell you that if someone wants to be unfaithful.... they will find a way. You want your partner to be faithful because they choose to be faithful.... not because you don't allow them to be anything else. If B1 did not want me to play, right now, because it is just too soon for him to be comfortable... then, I wouldn't go. Because, I love him and I want him to feel secure. But, if 2 years down the road he was still hesitant to let me out of his site for any reason, then I would have cause for concern. Truth is.... I miss him when he is at work, now. I can't wait for him to come home. That's new for me.... I haven't felt that way in many, many years. I like it. So, we wing this one day at a time......................


I know. It's a bit OTT. 

And it IS the dice game my late aunt taught our family when she stayed with us many years ago! My word, that brought back some great memories! Thank you!:smthumbup:


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## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> I am so sorry Daisy Girl. After watching B1 go through the pain of being a BS these last few months, I find myself feeling compassion and heartache for every BS here. I feel indebted to them and if there is anything that I might say to help a BS understand the psyche of a WS then I'd like to try. I can say that for me, I don't want to talk about the A. It's obviously something that hurts my husband terribly and I don't want to bring it up. But, because I love him, if he brings it up, then we will discuss it as long and as often as he needs. Because B1 loves me, sometimes, he will try not to "burden" me with his hurts, insecurities, fears and pain. He tries very hard to "give me a break" when he knows he has been hammering away for a day or two. Because I love him, I can tell when he is distant and I know it is because he is keeping it all inside. I don't let him do that. I go to him and ask him how he is feeling, what he is thinking, what is he afraid of.... and we talk about it. Wazza says it the best...... it's communication. It doesn't solve everything, but without it, you have nothing to build on.


I feel exactly the same way, also same way about what you said about going out without hubby..I also can tell when Calvin's triggering and is trying to keep it from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

EI, you read into my posts what you want to. I NEVER EVER, in any post, said that the WS could not EVER go out, don't mis-quote me and then call me absurd. I specifically stated that it was up to B1 and his comfort level, didn't I. PLus I only mentioned specific activities, that would be most likely to cause B1 anxiety. Clubbing, bar-hopping, etc. NONE of which a reformed WS should be doing, at any time, during R. Would you feel caged if you could not go drinking and being around single men? BTW, it was B1 who said that you did not tell him, not me.


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## Badblood

Specifically, B1 said that you were"holding back", telling him. Listen.. I am one of the few here on TAM that will own any mistake I make, and also one of the quickest to apologize for any wrong-doing. There are examples in some of my other posts, to prove this. But when you project your own spin on my words without either reading or quoting the entire statement, then call me absurd for something I never said, the I guess we don't need to talk.


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## CantSitStill

Badblood sometimes the things you say sound so harsh..kinda like you..umm come across a bit harsh and you kinda seem a bit negative about people reconcilling. When I first waw a post on their other thread, you saying something to Empty like oh well suck it up.. I do sorta understan what you're saying, for instance: I do agree that it's the WS's fault and yes we caused all of this aftermath that sucks so bad for the BS. What's the name of your thread? Maybe I can understand you better if I knew you better, in a way yes I get what you say yet you have said something along the lines of after so many years the marriage lands back into the rut. What if we never let it get back to that rut? What if we actuallu have been learning how to keep it from getting to that again? Do you believe it is possible that a couple will years and years later still be in R?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

In other words, you make it sound like R is extremely rare as far as being successful..I just have alot of hope that Calvin and I are one of those rare cases. We both want it so bad to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> In other words, you make it sound like R is extremely rare as far as being successful..I just have alot of hope that Calvin and I are one of those rare cases. We both want it so bad to work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that you and Calvin are very possibly one of the rare couples that can overcome infidelity, and I'm sure that you do want it to succeed. Actually, a lot of posters think I'm harsh, at first, but then realize that I'm always in the corner of love and honesty. I believe that those qualities will sustain R, or even a new marriage, when all else fails.


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## CantSitStill

Thank you, I do remember the first time I saw you post on the other thread Wife's affail, you shocked me. It's hell honestly but worth all the work and we have a very long way to go before we can even say we are good, well I mean we are so much better yet we have so much more to work on and learn.. boundries are the number one. but there is appreciation, attention, acceptance of one another, communication and so much more. As hard as this has been on Calvin I wish I had some kind of magical wand and have never allowed myself to run to another man for that attention...a major bonehead moment..believe it or not I do hurt knowing I caused all of this. It's getting late. Goodnight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

Badblood said:


> I think that you and Calvin are very possibly one of the rare couples that can overcome infidelity, and I'm sure that you do want it to succeed. Actually, a lot of posters think I'm harsh, at first, but then realize that I'm always in the corner of love and honesty. I believe that those qualities will sustain R, or even a new marriage, when all else fails.


Who knows how rare or not reconciliation is? Never seen reliable numbers. TAM by its nature is skewed to the negative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Wazza said:


> Who knows how rare or not reconciliation is? *Never seen reliable numbers*. TAM by its nature is skewed to the negative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Truth is, that's because there are no reliable figures.

Let's think about studies, numbers and percentages for a moment. Why do we like them AND hate them all at the same time? Because you can make any figure, number or percentage skewed.

How about this to ponder...and I'm gonna give totally hypothetical numbers here because honestly - I don't care about studies or percentages on things. If so, percentiles would have had me voting Republican in the last election. Anyways...let's say that a study shows that 2 out of 3 American's believe in Jesus Christ. There will be people who see those figures in totally different ways. Some will look at that and say "See, we're not wrong...there ARE people like us who don't believe in a God". Others will say "See, we're not wrong...there are MORE people who believe in Jesus than don't". Still others might even say "Looks like there's a few non-believers out there we need to reach". While yet another group says "We've really got to push the separation of church and state...look what it's doing to America".

Funny thing is this: What was the question or series of questions asked to arrive at the 2 out of 3 figure? I mean, it could have been as plain as "Do you believe in Jesus Christ". Well, a lot of people believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior so they will respond positively, but then again a lot of people who are not religious believe in the historical data that Jesus walked the Earth but that he just wasn't the Son of God, yet they would respond positively, too.

See what I did right there? It's what _they_ do out there in figure land.

My feelings about data and numbers and statistical analysis are pretty simple (cuz I'm a simple kinda guy and like things that way): Nothing applies to me because I wasn't IN THE STUDY. There are just too many variables to consider.

I'm sure someone here can quote the data on reconciliation, so again - I'll throw out a fake number. Let's say that only 1 in 3 marriages that are effected by an affair will end in reconciliation. A couple trying to repair their marriage will say "We have a chance!" while someone who suffered through divorce will say "See...I told ya so!"


----------



## B1

Badblood said:


> BTW, it was B1 who said that you did not tell him, not me.


We are on a good solid road to R, EI could not be doing more to make things up and certainly couldn't be more transparent. Saying this was a huge setback and I should be angry was a bit inflammatory and over the top. Then again, that's just you and how you see it, your trying to make a strong point, I realize that, and I gave your point some thought and concluded, again, that she didn't do anything wrong and I simply disagree with you on this matter. 

If I am ok with it then in the end that's what matters. I realize you are trying to point out a wrong here, but to me there was no wrong doing on EI's part. She just didn't do anything wrong in my eyes. 

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.


----------



## seasalt

Betrayed one and Empty Inside,

A bit of a direction change to counteract the image of dancing in the rain in your Victoria Secret skivvies.

I walk an hour each morning and this morning I was thinking about SomedayDig's affair song thread (can't ever go wrong with Roy Orbison so I'd pick "It's Over"). My thoughts came to wedding songs. Mine is the only song I'll ever be caught singing in public other than "Happy Birthday or "Jingle Bells".

For Betrayed1, are you at the point now that you can hear or think about your wedding song and react positively? I was wondering if that could be some kind of a measure of the progress of your reconcilliation?

I can ask this same question of Waza, SomedayDig/Regret214 and Calvin and CCS knowing full well that, as mentioned earlier, some topics of discussion may be better left for offline.

For Empty Inside, I had asked in one of my posts weeks ago when you might be inclined to change your login ID? It's been done before and also might be an indicator of your progress. I don't want to trigger Betrayed1 but you might also consider talking to him about once again updating your avatar. It is a becoming picture but if memory serves it was taken last summer and wouldn't in my mind fit a happy timeline.

Finally, the question of "bunko" night is only a problem if it was strip bunko.


----------



## jh52

"Finally, the question of "bunko" night is only a problem if it was strip bunko."

Unless it was only B1 and EI playing.

Hey B1 and EI -- there is a thought -- create and market the strip bunko game -- then you can watch all the money roll in and retire.:smthumbup:


----------



## seasalt

wait a minute!


----------



## Wazza

seasalt said:


> For Betrayed1, are you at the point now that you can hear or think about your wedding song and react positively? I was wondering if that could be some kind of a measure of the progress of your reconcilliation?
> 
> I can ask this same question of Waza, SomedayDig/Regret214 and Calvin and CCS knowing full well that, as mentioned earlier, some topics of discussion may be better left for offline.
> .


I don't have a wedding song or our song per se. But for me it went in stages.

First I had to learn just to walk back in the front door and be emotionally present. For a long time I threw myself into work to avoid going home and buried myself in solitary activities while at home.

Then we learned to be friends again.

Then we learned to be lovers, but like it was a new marriage, and the old was gone.

Finally I learned to see this as a continuation of the old marriage. And I think that's my equivalent of your wedding song moment, though for me it was being willing to put the wedding ring back on.

The first and fourth stages were the hardest, the other two just happened naturally. And until I confronted that fourth stage it was always a barrier to intimacy. My wife made light of it because that is her. She doesn't talk about feelings much. But I know that when I put it back on it meant a great deal to her.


----------



## SomedayDig

seasalt said:


> I can ask this same question of Waza, SomedayDig/Regret214 and Calvin and CCS knowing full well that, as mentioned earlier, some topics of discussion may be better left for offline.


I don't think I have a problem answering this question online. Our wedding song was one not well known or popular, but it's one that we both absolutely love. It's called "Home" by Duncan Sheik. I will be honest with you and I haven't even shared this with Regret, but I've heard that song in my head a lot over the past few months. It hurts. It hurts because of what the song truly meant to me on that day. Lately though, it seems to have started coming around to me. I'm more to a point of accepting the affair happened and moving through my anger and pain.

On a side note, there's one other very special wedding song from that day. It came after the best man toasted us. I took the microphone and serenaded Regret. I sang the Garth Brooks version of "To Make You Feel My Love".

There's part of the verse that says, "I know you haven't made your mind up yet, but I would never do you wrong. I've known it from the moment that we met...there's no doubt in my mind where you belong".

I can distinctly remember when singing that part, I kind of mocked it cuz I _knew_ she made her mind up that day that she loved me. But to remember that is a bit painful. We've actually talked more about that song than our actual wedding song since it was such a surprise to everyone that I did that.

Anyway, being a music fan, all music moves me.

While the songs might cause a little pain...they still mean something to me. Despite the affair, I still have fond memories of our wedding day.


----------



## CantSitStill

Well I wanted the song Nobody Loves Me Like You by Eddie Rabbit and Crystal Gale. The damn DJ brought the wrong box of music so he played that song We Got Tonight..I think the one I chose is still fitting today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It's Anne Murry and Dave Loggins..Nobody Loves me Like You Do..just looked it up on youtube..beautiful song
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

Our song after forty years still says everything I felt on our wedding day in 1973. It's called "It's Impossible" and was Perry Como's last number one pop hit recorded in 1970. The melody is from a Mexican love song called "Somos Novios" which means we are lovers.

I'm too stubbronly untechnical to provide a link to the song but the last half says it all:

"...Can the ocean keep from rushing to the shore?
It's impossible.
If I had you could I ever want for more?
Oh how impossible.
And tomorrow, should you ask me for the world, somehow I'd
get it.
I would sell my very soul and not regret it.
For to live without your love is just impossible.
Impossible.
Impossible." 

We go to Cabo San Lucas for a couple of weeks each Spring and I bring wads of $5 bills for the Mariachis. They all know it.


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> Who knows how rare or not reconciliation is? Never seen reliable numbers. TAM by its nature is skewed to the negative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think that at all. TAM is only negative if you accept and believe the idea that any marriage is better than no marriage. That the institution is more important than the individuals that make it up. That betrayal has no solution. Regardless of whether you R or D, if the dishonesty and disrespect of infidelity is ended, and both the BS and WS experience better understanding of each other and self-improvement, how can that be negative? Most posters like me find that helping others , helps ourselves, and we ALL try to do the best we can. How is that negative? We experience the commonality of shared triumphs and tragedies, heartache and healing. How can that be negative? Waz, Skewed towards the negative ? I strongely disagree.


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> We are on a good solid road to R, EI could not be doing more to make things up and certainly couldn't be more transparent. Saying this was a huge setback and I should be angry was a bit inflammatory and over the top. Then again, that's just you and how you see it, your trying to make a strong point, I realize that, and I gave your point some thought and concluded, again, that she didn't do anything wrong and I simply disagree with you on this matter.
> 
> If I am ok with it then in the end that's what matters. I realize you are trying to point out a wrong here, but to me there was no wrong doing on EI's part. She just didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
> 
> I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.


B1, then why did you post? Why did you say that EI held back info? Why did you ask about this situation? If you KNEW she was not at fault, what was the problem? It bothered you enough to post, it bothered you enough to mention it, so I offered an answer , then both you and EI blast me for my opinion? How is that, in any way , fair? You made the statement that EI was holding back info, I did not.


----------



## jh52

Badblood said:


> B1, then why did you post? Why did you say that EI held back info? Why did you ask about this situation? If you KNEW she was not at fault, what was the problem? It bothered you enough to post, it bothered you enough to mention it, so I offered an answer , then both you and EI blast me for my opinion? How is that, in any way , fair? You made the statement that EI was holding back info, I did not.


Let it go !!!


----------



## Badblood

OK


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> I don't think that at all. TAM is only negative if you accept and believe the idea that any marriage is better than no marriage. That the institution is more important than the individuals that make it up. That betrayal has no solution. Regardless of whether you R or D, if the dishonesty and disrespect of infidelity is ended, and both the BS and WS experience better understanding of each other and self-improvement, how can that be negative? Most posters like me find that helping others , helps ourselves, and we ALL try to do the best we can. How is that negative? We experience the commonality of shared triumphs and tragedies, heartache and healing. How can that be negative? Waz, Skewed towards the negative ? I strongely disagree.


Well, you've maybe taken what I meant more broadly. I was talking about statistics. What I meant was:

1) I think most people are likely to be drawn to this board when their marriages hit trouble, so you are unlikely to get many posters talking about how infidelity has never been a problem.

2) The ones who come back are also likely to be the ones still in trouble of one sort or another, so the number of reconciliations will be underrepresented. You'll also get some veterans saying "we see this all the time" as if that makes what they see a universal truth. They don't seem to consider that the purpose and culture of the board may be skewing their sample.

Now, we could have a separate discussion about whether the advice people get on TAM is good advice. While I don't agree with everything or everyone I read here, I still read it, so I must think it's worth something 

Having said that, the path my wife and I took broke many of the fundamentals in TAM....especially we did not have any sort of NC and my wife refused any sort of marriage counselling. If I had followed the common advice here I might have packed her stuff and left it on the front porch for her to collect when she came back from being with OM. Might have ended what is now a very happy marriage. So I think there is a danger in a one-size-fits all cookie cutter. The blind spot I see in TAM is very low recognition of the WS who has a conscience and snaps out of it themselves. 

And you know that personally....have a look at the number of times you personally have questioned aspects of my relationship. But then I'm unusually for TAM as well in having a reconciliation so long ago.


----------



## Badblood

Waz, those "cookie-cutter". methods that you refer to, are there because they are PROVEN methods of R. If you will look at any reputable infidelity website, talk to any "marriage -friendly" counselor, ask the vast majority of experienced BS's, you will find those very same methods or some form of them, are the most successful. An analogy would be to think of R as a roadtrip. The tried and true methods are the best available directions from point A (the affair) to point B (reconciliation). If you follow the directions faithfully, you will have much better odds that you will successfully reach the desired destination. If you "wing-it" or go off the beaten path, your chances deminish drastically. Those posters who delude themselves into the belief that their situation is so much different, that the methods don't apply to them, almost always are unsuccessful, long-term, at Reconciliation. That is why I have always advised caution, adherence to a proven formula, and asking the advice of those few posters who have reconciled, long-term.


----------



## Badblood

BTW, I am very skeptical about trusting the conscience of a proven cheater. You have every right to do so, of course, but also, you have only to look at the number of repeat cheaters, here on TAM, to see that perhaps this isn't the wisest course. I am sure that most of these WS's and BS's believed their R's were successful, too. The old saying is true", fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice , shame on me".


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Waz, those "cookie-cutter". methods that you refer to, are there because they are PROVEN methods of R. If you will look at any reputable infidelity website, talk to any "marriage -friendly" counselor, ask the vast majority of experienced BS's, you will find those very same methods or some form of them, are the most successful. An analogy would be to think of R as a roadtrip. The tried and true methods are the best available directions from point A (the affair) to point B (reconciliation). If you follow the directions faithfully, you will have much better odds that you will successfully reach the desired destination. If you "wing-it" or go off the beaten path, your chances deminish drastically. Those posters who delude themselves into the belief that their situation is so much different, that the methods don't apply to them, almost always are unsuccessful, long-term, at Reconciliation. That is why I have always advised caution, adherence to a proven formula, and asking the advice of those few posters who have reconciled, long-term.


Well. I guess if "PROVEN" is in upper case it must be true! 

I'm not an expert in reconciliation. All I can say is that following the methods most recommended on TAM would have quite possibly prevented reconciliation in my marriage. I'm sure the advice on TAM has saved a few marriages but I'll bet it's ended others that could have been saved. Just my view.

Not going to argue that point further, it's a threadjack.



Badblood said:


> BTW, I am very skeptical about trusting the conscience of a proven cheater. You have every right to do so, of course, but also, you have only to look at the number of repeat cheaters, here on TAM, to see that perhaps this isn't the wisest course. I am sure that most of these WS's and BS's believed their R's were successful, too. The old saying is true", fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice , shame on me".


The risk is real. The rule of thumb that says "all cheaters are the same and all less trustworthy than non-cheaters" I disagree with.

I'm spending a lot of time on CWI and learning a lot. Don't think I assume it couldn't happen to me (again). But sometimes you just have to take a risk.

How many 22 year reconciliations on TAM?


----------



## calvin

I feel a true R takes awhile and it full of hurt and pain,its a hard road.CSS had her EA and thats rough enough when the physical part did'nt happen.
I've seen R's where both spouse were all lovey dovey from the git go that failed.
Its one hell of a marathon and the mile stones are spread out far apart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> Well. I guess if "PROVEN" is in upper case it must be true!
> 
> I'm not an expert in reconciliation. All I can say is that following the methods most recommended on TAM would have quite possibly prevented reconciliation in my marriage. I'm sure the advice on TAM has saved a few marriages but I'll bet it's ended others that could have been saved. Just my view.
> 
> Not going to argue that point further, it's a threadjack.
> 
> 
> 
> The risk is real. The rule of thumb that says "all cheaters are the same and all less trustworthy than non-cheaters" I disagree with.
> 
> I'm spending a lot of time on CWI and learning a lot. Don't think I assume it couldn't happen to me (again). But sometimes you just have to take a risk.
> 
> How many 22 year reconciliations on TAM?


I don't know what you're trying to say with this? All Cheating is dishonest, dishonesty is not trustworthy. Do cheaters have OTHER good qualities? I suppose so, but that isn't what this is about, is it. Or are you saying that a cheater might be a sterling personality in every aspect of life, but also just happens to be a cheater? Do you think that there is such a thing as an honest cheater? Perhaps you are just arguing for the sake of argument. Please explain this statement.


----------



## EI

Good morning everyone,

What a crazy week B1 and I have this week. Tomorrow morning is the first day of school, which means that it is our "last" first day of high school, ever. Our youngest is starting his senior year. Also, tomorrow morning, our 19 y/o son is having his 3rd knee surgery since the end of March last year.... it worries me a great deal. He shattered it a year ago March playing basketball. The first surgery was to scope it. The damage was so extensive that he required a cadaver knee transplant which was done at the end of May, 2011. He went to school that morning and took his senior English final, (on what was his last day of his senior year in high school) then we went straight to the hospital and had his surgery done. He went through extensive physical therapy last year and we thought that all was well. The last few months he has started to complain about knee pain, blah, blah, blah...... surgery tomorrow morning for a micro-tear behind the knee. The graft healed properly except for one tiny area that didn't fill in..... grrrrr.... Boy, does our family know how to do great first and last days of school??? Which brings me to our 23 y/o special needs son and how I am going to get up get him off to daycare, get my youngest up and out the door for his first day of school (on time) and leave here at 6:30 a.m. to be in Indiana (just across the bridge downtown) at 7:30 a.m. If all of that weren't enough, the doctor that I was supposed to start working for in July, (we mutually agreed to put my start date off a few months.... it was beneficial for both of us) had his office call me Friday afternoon to say that he wanted me to start "this morning." Well, the rest of this week is filled with a variety of doctor's appointments for 2 of my boys and for B1 and myself. It isn't going to happen this week. I told the lady in the office, who is a personal friend of mine, that I couldn't start this week. She told me to call him, which I have done multiple times this weekend and left texts and voice mails, but have yet to hear back from him.

And this, my friends, is what a day in the life of a mother of 5 can be like. Even now that they are grown, it never ends, nor, do I suppose, would I want it to!


----------



## calvin

Wow Empty,sounds like you got your hands full
big time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Good morning everyone,
> 
> What a crazy week B1 and I have this week. Tomorrow morning is the first day of school, which means that it is our "last" first day of high school, ever. Our youngest is starting his senior year. Also, tomorrow morning, our 19 y/o son is having his 3rd knee surgery since the end of March last year.... it worries me a great deal. He shattered it a year ago March playing basketball. The first surgery was to scope it. The damage was so extensive that he required a cadaver knee transplant which was done at the end of May, 2011. He went to school that morning and took his senior English final, (on what was his last day of his senior year in high school) then we went straight to the hospital and had his surgery done. He went through extensive physical therapy last year and we thought that all was well. The last few months he has started to complain about knee pain, blah, blah, blah...... surgery tomorrow morning for a micro-tear behind the knee. The graft healed properly except for one tiny area that didn't fill in..... grrrrr.... Boy, does our family know how to do great first and last days of school??? Which brings me to our 23 y/o special needs son and how I am going to get up get him off to daycare, get my youngest up and out the door for his first day of school (on time) and leave here at 6:30 a.m. to be in Indiana (just across the bridge downtown) at 7:30 a.m. If all of that weren't enough, the doctor that I was supposed to start working for in July, (we mutually agreed to put my start date off a few months.... it's was beneficial for both of us) had his office call me Friday afternoon to say that he wanted me to start "this morning." Well, the rest of this week is filled with a variety of doctor's appointments for 2 of my boys and for B1 and myself. It isn't going to happen this week. I told the lady in the office, who is a personal friend of mine, that I couldn't start this week. She told me to call him, which I have done multiple times this weekend and left texts and voice mails, but have yet to hear back from him.
> 
> And this, my friends, is what a day in the life of a mother of 5 can be like. Even now that they are grown, it never ends, nor, do I suppose, would I want it to!


Just remember to carve out some time for you and B1 !!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Wow Empty,sounds like you got your hands full
> big time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes, Calvin, it can been this way for weeks at a time around here. And, if it isn't one thing, it's another. OMG, I'm starting to remind myself of my Dad. He used to say that all of the time!


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> Just remember to carve out some time for you and B1 !!



Everyday.... we do, every single day!


----------



## Badblood

calvin said:


> I feel a true R takes awhile and it full of hurt and pain,its a hard road.CSS had her EA and thats rough enough when the physical part did'nt happen.
> I've seen R's where both spouse were all lovey dovey from the git go that failed.
> Its one hell of a marathon and the mile stones are spread out far apart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cal, I think you and CSS have a pretty realistic attitude to your R. Since coming to TAM right after my wife's affair, this is one of the few times I can remember where we have had multiple couples here, seeking reconciliation, and it has been an eye-opener, for sure. The speed at which some couples have apparently R'd is breath-taking, and gives rise to questions about desperation and sincerity. I feel that your approach of steady , graduated, improvement will give you the best chance for long-term satisfaction, and might even lead to a complete negation of the ill effects of the infifelity. I have never said that to anyone. Both of you seem reasonable, thoughtful individuals.


----------



## calvin

Badblood said:


> Cal, I think you and CSS have a pretty realistic attitude to your R. Since coming to TAM right after my wife's affair, this is one of the few times I can remember where we have had multiple couples here, seeking reconciliation, and it has been an eye-opener, for sure. The speed at which some couples have apparently R'd is breath-taking, and gives rise to questions about desperation and sincerity. I feel that your approach of steady , graduated, improvement will give you the best chance for long-term satisfaction, and might even lead to a complete negation of the ill effects of the infifelity. I have never said that to anyone. Both of you seem reasonable, thoughtful individuals.


It isnt easy and I dont really see anyother way,
it takes awhile and it seems like there's always
pitfalls just under the surface.
I question myself a lot about doing this and weight it against the alternative.No easy way to do it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

calvin said:


> It isnt easy and I dont really see anyother way,
> it takes awhile and it seems like there's always
> pitfalls just under the surface.
> I question myself a lot about doing this and weight it against the alternative.No easy way to do it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know what you're saying. Before I made the decision to D, while we were attempting to R, I was always on infidelity sites, talking to counselors, and reading books to help me make the right choices, and even then, it was tough. In my situation, her mental state (and my lack of awareness of it) played a huge part, obviousely, but with my own emotions , all over the place, I had difficulty dealing with my own feelings, let alone hers.


----------



## calvin

I'll never go through it again,its a hell of a mess to
clean up and put back together
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

reconciliation is a process, not an end. Dig and I acknowledge that we will be working on R for the rest of our marriage. Our point is that we are committed to working. Both of us. Each day is different, some good and some not so good, but again, we are committed to working through it all, TOGETHER!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

But, you seem to be doing OK, now, right? I think the biggest difference is how completely CSS has been remorseful, and how much work she has done. If my Ex had done as much work, or been half as honest, I probably would have given the Ex, another shot. Too bad.


----------



## Badblood

Abuse caused my Ex's mental problems, her mental problems caused our marital problems, our marital problems caused her cheating, and her cheating, in turn, accerberated her mental problems. Now.... Badblood is a Marine and a business man...he is NOT a Doctor of Psychology, nor is he an expert on child abuse, nor is he able to get his ex to talk about her issues, when everybody else tells her to hide them. I did all that I could. But, it's kind of like when you go on a trip. Just before you close the door, you always think......I know I've forgotten something.


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> I feel a true R takes awhile and it full of hurt and pain,its a hard road.CSS had her EA and thats rough enough when the physical part did'nt happen.
> I've seen R's where both spouse were all lovey dovey from the git go that failed.
> Its one hell of a marathon and the mile stones are spread out far apart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do agree Calvin, as we are learning, it IS going to be a marathon, not that that surprises me to much. We will just have a couple good days then I will trigger and have a bad moment or two.
Within the love I have for EI, there is pain and hurt too. And...EI hurts also, I am not the only one in pain.
I had a little meltdown Sat. night and really hurt EI and it in turn got her down. We both noted how hard this is, it's NOT easy, these little setbacks can really hurt the R. It's going to take a lot of patience, love, understanding and compassion, of which we have.

We spend so much time talking and analyzing the A and the years prior to the A. We are working on both of us, not just EI, I am working on me too. I have some fixing to do also. 

Oh and we have our lovey dovey times too, those are the good times, the good moments, they really help us get through some of the bad times. Dancing in the rain, that was something new and it brings a smile to my face when I think about it. I will use this to help with images and mind movies 


We do apprecaite the support we get here, it really does help. This is such a hard, bumpy, twisting, road and we don't see many who are on it.

So....

*If your are in R, please post, tell us about your R!*


----------



## Almostrecovered

oh Dig, what did you do to get the ban hammer?


----------



## calvin

Dig got banned? Damn.
B1,yeah the lovey dovey times are good I agree.
When me and CSS got back together thats all it was for the first month,then I hit the reality wall.
Thats where the real work started and it has'nt stopped since.
Yeah we both had problems but they were very fixable,I reached out to CSS a few times to go to MC over the last 7 years or so,she refused.
I have no idea why it had to come to her searching for her ex bf.
I'm pretty sure things will continue to improve but
some damage and some words that were spoken just cant be taken back.
She cries a lot,she see's what she's done to me
and I'm no pushover,nothing really hurts me that bad....what she did tore a new a-hole in my brain.
Hour by hour,day by day isnt a clich'e.
Its the way its gotta be if we are going to see this through....ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> The speed at which some couples have apparently R'd is breath-taking, and gives rise to questions about desperation and sincerity.



BB, I suspect that this is a jab at B1 and me. No one has ever said that we have "R'd" as in "reconciled." "Reconciling" is what we are attempting to do. I'm not exactly sure what you mean about "speed." Doesn't a "reconciliation attempt" have to begin at some point? I remember YOU commenting on my initial thread, (which began 2 1/2 weeks after D-day and a couple of days before B1 was aware of the fact that my A had become physical, again,) saying that my comments were the "biggest example of delusional thinking that you have ever seen on TAM." That may not be an exact quote, but it is close enough. I have so many important things to do right now that looking it up for accuracy is not on my priority list. Well, geeeez, ya think that 2 1/2 weeks out of a 15 month PA and my thinking wasn't going to be a little "off?" But, I came here, looking for guidance, because even when I was convinced that I no longer loved my husband, that he hadn't loved me for a long time, and that I did love the AP.... and that whether I ended up with the AP or not, that my marriage was still unsalvageable, I still wanted to help B1 through this. That should have been an indicator to even the most cynical, bitter, SOB that I had deeper feelings for B1 than even I was aware of at the time. So, when I was finally able to give B1 all of the facts regarding my infidelity and he and I began an honest attempt at reconciliation within about 10 days of my first post.... I, immediately, started getting blasted, again, by the same posters who, as Complexity put it, "textually lynched" me from the beginning. I started posting very early after D-Day and I was giving all of the honesty that I had to give at the time. Our reconciliation is unfolding in real time. 



Badblood said:


> But, you seem to be doing OK, now, right? I think the *biggest difference* is how completely CSS has been remorseful, and how much work she has done.


I have great respect for Calvin and CSS. They are on my prayer list daily and I have great hope and faith that they will enjoy a successful reconciliation and a lifetime of marital bliss. What I don't appreciate is your intended jab, once again, at others who are working through their own reconciliations. The words *"biggest difference"* are implying that some WWs are not showing remorse. If you had read through Calvin and CSS's thread, even recently, Calvin said that for the first two months after CSS returned home, from having briefly separated from Calvin and moving in with her sister, that she *still* thought that the OM was a good guy (and he wasn't.) It took a while longer, and some extremely lewd phone calls to Calvin about CSS and their children before CSS came to see the OM in a different light. So, you see, although her remorse is genuine, and her efforts to make this up to Calvin are sincere.... this didn't happen overnight.... it took some time.

Dig has been permanently banned because of his earlier comment to you on this thread. I think that is a huge loss for TAM and an unfortunate loss for him and Regret as they both enjoyed using this forum as a tool to help them navigate through this very painful time in their lives. It's nice to have a place to vent and to give and receive encouragement.

Now, having said all of that.... BB, if you have nothing positive to add to this thread, and only want to continuously point out the negatives, as if those of us reconciling are not already aware of all of the negative statistics stacked against us, then I'd like to ask you to refrain from posting here on our thread. I have never reported anyone to the mods, and I have been on the receiving end of some unnecessarily cruel comments, particularly in the first couple weeks of posting, but you are being argumentative and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop. You can say what you think, others can say what they think, but then you continue to argue your point. We are all entitled to our opinions without your continued attempts to bully others into submission.


----------



## Almostrecovered

guys before another one of you gets banned may I point out that there is an ignore feature on this site and that if you find yourself getting angry or upset over a particular poster that you should perhaps use it at least temporarily


----------



## Hope1964

Dig is gone now? Sh!t. 

A comment on this, badblood:

"Abuse caused my Ex's mental problems, her mental problems caused our marital problems, *our marital problems caused her cheating,* and her cheating, in turn, accerberated her mental problems."

I am not overly familiar with your situation, so can you clarify why you think your marital problems caused the cheating?


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Everyday.... we do, every single day!


There's a line at the end of a movie with Adam Sadler and Jennifer Aniston where he is confessing his love for her and her 2 kids from her previous marriage where he says that he will always love her kids for 23 hours a day -- she asks -- what about the other hour -- and they both just smile.:smthumbup::smthumbup:

Sounds like a plan for you and B1.:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

Been following EI and B1 from afar but I think their gonna be fine.
Dig got a lifetime ban? You're yanking my chain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

He got permanently banned for that?!?! Wow. That is WAY harsh.


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Been following EI and B1 from afar but I think their gonna be fine.


Thanks Calvin..... ! 


calvin said:


> Dig got a lifetime ban? You're yanking my chain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, unfortunately, he did.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Ya know Badblood, you ALWAYS say the same sh-t. You're a broken record of "advice". Maybe you should go haunt another section of the forums. Like maybe the Divorce section where you'd at least be able to give some solid advice.
> 
> I find it disheartening that you outright play favorites in this thread. Why not try to give some constructive words instead of destructive words instead of being so passive aggressive in B1 and EI's thread...?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Hope1964 said:


> He got permanently banned for that?!?! Wow. That is WAY harsh.



For the above comment! I just don't understand! :scratchhead:


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> BB, I suspect that this is a jab at B1 and me. No one has ever said that we have "R'd" as in "reconciled." "Reconciling" is what we are attempting to do. I'm not exactly sure what you mean about "speed." Doesn't a "reconciliation attempt" have to begin at some point? I remember YOU commenting on my initial thread, (which began 2 1/2 weeks after D-day and a couple of days before B1 was aware of the fact that my A had become physical, again,) saying that my comments were the "biggest example of delusional thinking that you have ever seen on TAM." That may not be an exact quote, but it is close enough. I have so many important things to do right now that looking it up for accuracy is not on my priority list. Well, geeeez, ya think that 2 1/2 weeks out of a 15 month PA and my thinking wasn't going to be a little "off?" But, I came here, looking for guidance, because even when I was convinced that I no longer loved my husband, that he hadn't loved me for a long time, and that I did love the AP.... and that whether I ended up with the AP or not, that my marriage was still unsalvageable, I still wanted to help B1 through this. That should have been an indicator to even the most cynical, bitter, SOB that I had deeper feelings for B1 than even I was aware of at the time. So, when I was finally able to give B1 all of the facts regarding my infidelity and he and I began an honest attempt at reconciliation within about 10 days of my first post.... I, immediately, started getting blasted, again, by the same posters who, as Complexity put it, "textually lynched" me from the beginning. I started posting very early after D-Day and I was giving all of the honesty that I had to give at the time. Our reconciliation is unfolding in real time.
> 
> 
> 
> I have great respect for Calvin and CSS. They are on my prayer list daily and I have great hope and faith that they will enjoy a successful reconciliation and a lifetime of marital bliss. What I don't appreciate is your intended jab, once again, at others who are working through their own reconciliations. The words *"biggest difference"* are implying that some WWs are not showing remorse. If you had read through Calvin and CSS's thread, even recently, Calvin said that for the first two months after CSS returned home, from having briefly separated from Calvin and moving in with her sister, that she *still* thought that the OM was a good guy (and he wasn't.) It took a while longer, and some extremely lewd phone calls to Calvin about CSS and their children before CSS came to see the OM in a different light. So, you see, although her remorse is genuine, and her efforts to make this up to Calvin are sincere.... this didn't happen overnight.... it took some time.
> 
> Dig has been permanently banned because of his earlier comment to you on this thread. I think that is a huge loss for TAM and an unfortunate loss for him and Regret as they both enjoyed using this forum as a tool to help them navigate through this very painful time in their lives. It's nice to have a place to vent and to give and receive encouragement.
> 
> Now, having said all of that.... BB, if you have nothing positive to add to this thread, and only want to continuously point out the negatives, as if those of us reconciling are not already aware of all of the negative statistics stacked against us, then I'd like to ask you to refrain from posting here on our thread. I have never reported anyone to the mods, and I have been on the receiving end of some unnecessarily cruel comments, particularly in the first couple weeks of posting, but you are being argumentative and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop. You can say what you think, others can say what they think, but then you continue to argue your point. We are all entitled to our opinions without your continued attempts to bully others into submission.


Empty, just re-read your/B1's old threads. What do you feel when you read those old posts? (make it a short reply  )


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Empty, just re-read your/B1's old threads. What do you feel when you read those old posts? (make it a short reply  )


I'll get to this a little later, today, Warlock. I have to go to the grocery and the pharmacy. 'Cuz, as you know, even "short replies" require lots of thought!


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> BB, I suspect that this is a jab at B1 and me. No one has ever said that we have "R'd" as in "reconciled." "Reconciling" is what we are attempting to do. I'm not exactly sure what you mean about "speed." Doesn't a "reconciliation attempt" have to begin at some point? I remember YOU commenting on my initial thread, (which began 2 1/2 weeks after D-day and a couple of days before B1 was aware of the fact that my A had become physical, again,) saying that my comments were the "biggest example of delusional thinking that you have ever seen on TAM." That may not be an exact quote, but it is close enough. I have so many important things to do right now that looking it up for accuracy is not on my priority list. Well, geeeez, ya think that 2 1/2 weeks out of a 15 month PA and my thinking wasn't going to be a little "off?" But, I came here, looking for guidance, because even when I was convinced that I no longer loved my husband, that he hadn't loved me for a long time, and that I did love the AP.... and that whether I ended up with the AP or not, that my marriage was still unsalvageable, I still wanted to help B1 through this. That should have been an indicator to even the most cynical, bitter, SOB that I had deeper feelings for B1 than even I was aware of at the time. So, when I was finally able to give B1 all of the facts regarding my infidelity and he and I began an honest attempt at reconciliation within about 10 days of my first post.... I, immediately, started getting blasted, again, by the same posters who, as Complexity put it, "textually lynched" me from the beginning. I started posting very early after D-Day and I was giving all of the honesty that I had to give at the time. Our reconciliation is unfolding in real time.
> 
> 
> 
> I have great respect for Calvin and CSS. They are on my prayer list daily and I have great hope and faith that they will enjoy a successful reconciliation and a lifetime of marital bliss. What I don't appreciate is your intended jab, once again, at others who are working through their own reconciliations. The words *"biggest difference"* are implying that some WWs are not showing remorse. If you had read through Calvin and CSS's thread, even recently, Calvin said that for the first two months after CSS returned home, from having briefly separated from Calvin and moving in with her sister, that she *still* thought that the OM was a good guy (and he wasn't.) It took a while longer, and some extremely lewd phone calls to Calvin about CSS and their children before CSS came to see the OM in a different light. So, you see, although her remorse is genuine, and her efforts to make this up to Calvin are sincere.... this didn't happen overnight.... it took some time.
> 
> Dig has been permanently banned because of his earlier comment to you on this thread. I think that is a huge loss for TAM and an unfortunate loss for him and Regret as they both enjoyed using this forum as a tool to help them navigate through this very painful time in their lives. It's nice to have a place to vent and to give and receive encouragement.
> 
> Now, having said all of that.... BB, if you have nothing positive to add to this thread, and only want to continuously point out the negatives, as if those of us reconciling are not already aware of all of the negative statistics stacked against us, then I'd like to ask you to refrain from posting here on our thread. I have never reported anyone to the mods, and I have been on the receiving end of some unnecessarily cruel comments, particularly in the first couple weeks of posting, but you are being argumentative and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop. You can say what you think, others can say what they think, but then you continue to argue your point. We are all entitled to our opinions without your continued attempts to bully others into submission.


I will answer you, NOT EI, out of courtesy. I specifically stated in another thread that I would no longer communicate with Regret or Somedaydig, but that I believed that we could co-exist on TAM, without having interaction. Read it for yourself. Somedaydig Began following me from thread to thread with nasty, insulting comments, and I notified the moderators, instead of getting myself banned yet again. I did not ask the moderators to ban Somedaydig, I asked them to get Somedaydig to leave me alone, I don't think that they will ban anyone permanently, on the sayso of a single other poster. I will no longer comment on your posts, and ask for the same consideration. I will, however, continue to talk to other posters, and express my opinion. As for my comments, no, they were not directed at anyone specifically, nor even specifically at WS's, but at those couples who seem to be R'ing very rapidly, which is what I stated. If you feel that it was directed towards you, I'm sorry, but such was not the case.


----------



## Badblood

BTW, I do not want Somedaydig to be permanently banned. I do not even want him temporarily banned. All I want is for him to leave me alone, not comment on my posts and co-exist peacefully, and I will return the favor.


----------



## Badblood

Hope1964 said:


> Dig is gone now? Sh!t.
> 
> A comment on this, badblood:
> 
> "Abuse caused my Ex's mental problems, her mental problems caused our marital problems, *our marital problems caused her cheating,* and her cheating, in turn, accerberated her mental problems."
> 
> I am not overly familiar with your situation, so can you clarify why you think your marital problems caused the cheating?


That is an assumption on my part. It seems obvious to me NOW, that she was having issues before she cheated. Emotional intimacy issues, communication issues, and honesty issues, that I was unaware of, until it erupted. Hope, both of us had been married before, and we seemed like a perfect match. In hindsight, I can see that she was moulding herself into the person I assumed she was, and ignoring her mental issues, in hopes that they would go away. She told me that she felt that because I was a "take charge", kind of person, that I could somehow make her problems disappear. How I was to do that, unless she told me about those problems, she never mentioned. It's very difficult to fight an enemy that you don't know exists.


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> I'll get to this a little later, today, Warlock. I have to go to the grocery and the pharmacy. 'Cuz, as you know, even "short replies" require lots of thought!


Empty (super long posts) Inside  Take your time. You are a busy woman. (Reading your post made me tired)


Wait, you sure Dig got a perma ban? Usually for the first offense is a one day ban!!


----------



## Harken Banks

Hope1964 said:


> He got permanently banned for that?!?! Wow. That is WAY harsh.


This is a big shame and a loss to the board. Dig and Badblood have been exchanging barbs for weeks. Kind of amusing, I thought. Part of the fabric of the place. Both ably and convincingly state differing views on fundamental issues around infidelity and reconciliation. Both contribute hugely. I hope permanent will be reconsidered.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say with this? All Cheating is dishonest, dishonesty is not trustworthy. Do cheaters have OTHER good qualities? I suppose so, but that isn't what this is about, is it. Or are you saying that a cheater might be a sterling personality in every aspect of life, but also just happens to be a cheater? Do you think that there is such a thing as an honest cheater? Perhaps you are just arguing for the sake of argument. Please explain this statement.


I'm posting my experiences so far of how I reconciled with my wife to provide ideas for others, who are trying to figure this out. I make no claim to be a guru, but I have rebuilt a long term marriage, so maybe there is some useful stuff in my ramblings.

For me it was crucial to stop blaming my wife for everything and start understanding what happened in order to figure out strategies for avoiding a repeat performance. 

No cheating is honest, but there is a big difference - to me at least - between someone who wants to be faithful but fails during a difficult time, vs someone who doesn't care about fidelity and sees lying as an acceptable strategy. My wife is in the former category.

In as much as she made the decision to start and continue the affair it is all her fault. In as much as this person who I love was in a terrible place of pain, that her husband didn't realise, that led her to do this horrible thing.....well I want to help her. I want to be there for her. Both perspectives are correct, for us at least. But only the first one gets recognised on tam. The second is dismissed as BS fog.

If you insist on waiting for the perfect person you'll be waiting a while.

Don't know if this makes it any clearer. I feel that I am repeating myself.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> That is an assumption on my part. It seems obvious to me NOW, that *she was having issues before she cheated. Emotional intimacy issues, communication issues, and honesty issues, that I was unaware of, until it erupted.* Hope, both of us had been married before, and we seemed like a perfect match. In hindsight, I can see that she was moulding herself into the person I assumed she was, and ignoring her mental issues, in hopes that they would go away. She told me that she felt that because I was a "take charge", kind of person, that I could somehow make her problems disappear. How I was to do that, unless she told me about those problems, she never mentioned. It's very difficult to fight an enemy that you don't know exists.


Maybe this is where we find common ground. The affair opened my eyes to my wife's issues. I chose to fight them alongside her. Still haven't won the war but won a lot of battles.

Ymmv.


----------



## Harken Banks

I haven't followed all of this, Wazza, but I'm kind of with BB on this one. Cheating is a fundamental betrayal of the union and every predicate it rested on. At this point my heart and mind are open to forgiveness, but not excuse.


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> I'm posting my experiences so far of how I reconciled with my wife to provide ideas for others, who are trying to figure this out. I make no claim to be a guru, but I have rebuilt a long term marriage, so maybe there is some useful stuff in my ramblings.
> 
> For me it was crucial to stop blaming my wife for everything and start understanding what happened in order to figure out strategies for avoiding a repeat performance.
> 
> No cheating is honest, but there is a big difference - to me at least - between someone who wants to be faithful but fails during a difficult time, vs someone who doesn't care about fidelity and sees lying as an acceptable strategy. My wife is in the former category.
> 
> In as much as she made the decision to start and continue the affair it is all her fault. In as much as this person who I love was in a terrible place of pain, that her husband didn't realise, that led her to do this horrible thing.....well I want to help her. I want to be there for her. Both perspectives are correct, for us at least. But only the first one gets recognised on tam. The second is dismissed as BS fog.
> 
> If you insist on waiting for the perfect person you'll be waiting a while.
> 
> Don't know if this makes it any clearer. I feel that I am repeating myself.


Sure it does, Waz. I don't agree with it, but it does clarify what you said earlier. What I don't agree with is the idea that a person who wants to remain faithful, will somehow fail the test, due to ........ what? What excuse is acceptible? Isn't this rugsweeping? Making excuses for the WS, when it would be better for him/her to face their issues, forthrightly? IDK, but it sounds fishy to me. I guess we will just have to break clean on this idea.


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> Maybe this is where we find common ground. The affair opened my eyes to my wife's issues. I chose to fight them alongside her. Still haven't won the war but won a lot of battles.
> 
> Ymmv.


I tried that, Waz, but it didn't work out. The trouble was that even when I told her I would stand by her, she continued to be in contact with the OM, leaving me with some pretty sour choices. A. Stay with her, while she went into possibly years of therapy ( and with the affair running concurrently). B. Threaten Divorce, without meaning it, to see if it would stop her. C. Accept that she would always want these perverted games with the OM to continue, and live with it. D. Set the boundaries of what it would take , minimally, for us to stay together, with Divorce , the alternative. I chose D, after either considering or attempting the rest.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> I tried that, Waz, but it didn't work out. The trouble was that even when I told her I would stand by her, she continued to be in contact with the OM, leaving me with some pretty sour choices. A. Stay with her, while she went into possibly years of therapy ( and with the affair running concurrently). B. Threaten Divorce, without meaning it, to see if it would stop her. C. Accept that she would always want these perverted games with the OM to continue, and live with it. D. Set the boundaries of what it would take , minimally, for us to stay together, with Divorce , the alternative. I chose D, after either considering or attempting the rest.


Option d has to be on the table, I agree. I'm sorry you got to that point. That's the hardet thing about all this, there are no guarantees. 

For me, in retrospect, staying for the kids effectively created a sort of 180. The affair happened in 1990 and the 1991 version of me would have told the now me I was an idiot. In 1991 I was sad, lonely, and focused on doing the right thing by my kids and burying myself in my career to numb the pain.

For me the revelation came when I fell in love with someone else in 1996. I handled it better than my wife but it gave me a new understanding of her story.

Just to be clear bb, I am not trivialising your story, nor suggesting if you did it my way all would be well. While I haven't agreed with all you said, some of your comments on my marriage have been spot on.


----------



## Wazza

Harken Banks said:


> I haven't followed all of this, Wazza, but I'm kind of with BB on this one. Cheating is a fundamental betrayal of the union and every predicate it rested on. At this point my heart and mind are open to forgiveness, but not excuse.


I don't think that contradicts what I am saying. I'm arguing for understanding and possible forgiveness, not excuse.


----------



## Badblood

Waz, understanding and forgiveness do not imply R. Since my wife's suicide attempt, I've gained a lot of understanding of her and her motivations, in fact, much more than I had during our marriage. I have forgiven her and wish her well. NONE of which means I want to stay married to her.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Waz, understanding and forgiveness do not imply R. Since my wife's suicide attempt, I've gained a lot of understanding of her and her motivations, in fact, much more than I had during our marriage. I have forgiven her and wish her well. NONE of which means I want to stay married to her.


Agree they don't imply R. for the sort of marriage I want, however, they are a necessary component of R.


----------



## CantSitStill

I just wanna say, us WS' are so lucky when we are given the chance to even R. I am so very blessed to be given this last chance and will do all I can to save my marriage. That's true love when a BS takes the WS back for that one last chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Empty, just re-read your/B1's old threads. What do you feel when you read those old posts? *(make it a short reply  )*


("make it a short reply ")??? OMG, that's cruel and unusual punishment and is in direct violation of the Eight Amendment to the United States Constitution (1787) - per Wikipedia 

Ooooookaaaay! I've, actually, re-read both of our old threads, recently, and I'm amazed at how far B1 & I have come. I'm blown away at how far I've come in the 11 weeks since my first post here. I was in such a different place at that time. I remember hating the term "affair fog," because as far as I was concerned it wasn't me, it was everyone else, who was in a fog. LOL I felt defensive, entitled and justified. I felt that B1 was completely responsible for my choice to have an affair and that he was, also, completely responsible for all of the problems in our marriage prior to my affair.

Now, I realize that I am the only one who made the decision to have an affair. I am the only one responsible for making that choice. I wouldn't/couldn't say those words if I didn't mean them. B1 and I, both, played a huge part in the destruction of our marriage prior to my affair. We are able to look back now and honestly own each of our parts in that.

I can't say that anything about reconciliation has been easy, it's the hardest thing I've/we've ever done. But, I can say that, along with having our children, it is the most worthwhile and wonderful thing we've ever done. In spite of the pain that this has caused both of us, I do believe that we are on our way to having a better marriage that we ever had before. Note: not because of.... but in spite of!!!

"What do I feel now?" I feel happiness, I feel blessed, I feel like the luckiest, most loved, most desired, most adored, most cherished woman on the planet. I feel blessed beyond measure and I feel a debt of gratitude to B1 for loving me the most when I was the least lovable and the least deserving of his love.

I know that wasn't a short answer.... but, c'mon? You knew who you were asking... and that was a loaded question!

P. S. Did I pass? 

P.S.S. Most important of all...... I'm in love with my husband!


----------



## CantSitStill

Love your answer Empty  I was soo out there when I first posted on Calvin's thread from a long time ago...I do go back and read it to remind myself every now and then how far we have come yet we still have so much more to endure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> I just wanna say, us WS' are so lucky when we are given the chance to even R. I am so very blessed to be given this last chance and will do all I can to save my marriage. That's true love when a BS takes the WS back for that one last chance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is so true, CSS, and some of them, like you, realize it. Others like my ex, never believed that it WAS the last chance, until she had used it up.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey Empty, thinkin about you. Hope all goes well 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Hey Empty, thinkin about you. Hope all goes well
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's funny, I just posted on your thread. Our son is in surgery now. I hope it's finally "fixed" and that he is no longer in pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> ("make it a short reply ")??? OMG, that's cruel and unusual punishment and is in direct violation of the Eight Amendment to the United States Constitution (1787) - per Wikipedia
> 
> Ooooookaaaay! I've, actually, re-read both of our old threads, recently, and I'm amazed at how far B1 & I have come. I'm blown away at how far I've come in the 11 weeks since my first post here. I was in such a different place at that time. I remember hating the term "affair fog," because as far as I was concerned it wasn't me, it was everyone else, who was in a fog. LOL I felt defensive, entitled and justified. I felt that B1 was completely responsible for my choice to have an affair and that he was, also, completely responsible for all of the problems in our marriage prior to my affair.
> 
> Now, I realize that I am the only one who made the decision to have an affair. I am the only one responsible for making that choice. I wouldn't/couldn't say those words if I didn't mean them. B1 and I, both, played a huge part in the destruction of our marriage prior to my affair. We are able to look back now and honestly own each of our parts in that.
> 
> I can't say that anything about reconciliation has been easy, it's the hardest thing I've/we've ever done. But, I can say that, along with having our children, it is the most worthwhile and wonderful thing we've ever done. In spite of the pain that this has caused both of us, I do believe that we are on our way to having a better marriage that we ever had before. Note: not because of.... but in spite of!!!
> 
> "What do I feel now?" I feel happiness, I feel blessed, I feel like the luckiest, most loved, most desired, most adored, most cherished woman on the planet. I feel blessed beyond measure and I feel a debt of gratitude to B1 for loving me the most when I was the least lovable and the least deserving of his love.
> 
> I know that wasn't a short answer.... but, c'mon? You knew who you were asking... and that was a loaded question!
> 
> P. S. Did I pass?
> 
> P.S.S. Most important of all...... I'm in love with my husband!


I wasn't testing you or waiting for the right answer. I am not your therapist . I was just curious on how much you still identified with the person who made the posts.


----------



## Almostrecovered

btw- to update, Dig's sentence was commuted to 3 weeks


----------



## Hope1964

Almostrecovered said:


> btw- to update, Dig's sentence was commuted to 3 weeks


----------



## calvin

Almostrecovered said:


> btw- to update, Dig's sentence was commuted to 3 weeks


Excellent,we need his point of view on here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Almostrecovered said:


> btw- to update, Dig's sentence was commuted to 3 weeks


Good to see that !!


----------



## Badblood

Almostrecovered said:


> btw- to update, Dig's sentence was commuted to 3 weeks


That's about the length that mine was, the second time I was banned. Good, I'm glad it wasn't permanent. Hopefully we can peacefully co-exist from now on.


----------



## iheartlife

Hope1964 said:


>


Missed you, BTW!!!


----------



## Hope1964

iheartlife said:


> Missed you, BTW!!!


Awww, shucks


----------



## warlock07

Almostrecovered said:


> btw- to update, Dig's sentence was commuted to 3 weeks


not sure if i should like the post or not . 3 weeks is too long


----------



## warlock07

oh boy!! here comes another long post from empty


----------



## EI

Reconciliation = spending a couple of hours, that you really don't have to spare, creating a "cheat sheet" for your hubby that includes "bios" that summarize the stories of several TAM members so that he can keep up with them. And, a separate "cheat sheet" with several common grammar, spelling and punctuation errors.... because, often, the most brilliant and creative minds simply cannot be bothered with "those little details." Right, Baby? 

Update: Son's surgery was successful, although painful, and we are home. I'm praying for a complete recovery this time! Now, if I can only keep our boy still for 2-3 days. He was on crutches, last year, from March to August, and I couldn't get him to stop for more than a minute after the first day. :scratchhead:


----------



## jh52

warlock07 said:


> not sure if i should like the post or not . 3 weeks is too long


Better than the permanent banned that was first imposed.


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Reconciliation = spending a couple of hours, that you really don't have to spare, creating a "cheat sheet" for your hubby that includes "bios" that summarize the stories of several TAM members so that he can keep up with them. And, a separate "cheat sheet" with several common grammar, spelling and punctuation errors.... because, often, the most brilliant and creative minds simply cannot be bothered with "those little details." Right, Baby?
> 
> Update: Son's surgery was successful, although painful, and we are home. I'm praying for a complete recovery this time! Now, if I can only keep our boy still for 2-3 days. He was on crutches, last year, from March to September, and I couldn't get him to stop for more than a minute after the first day. :scratchhead:


Not a big advocate for meds -- but if he stays on the pain meds - that should knock him out and keep him asleep.:smthumbup:

Good luck -- and continue prays for yours' and B1's son and family.


----------



## CantSitStill

lol cheat sheat to help him keep track of TAM people that's funny..grammar sheet too? lol you gotta let it go. I tend to wanna correct people's grammar too but am learning to keep it inside not to be pesty. My daughter is the same way about people's posts on fb lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

ugg I don't know why I'm so nervous about my first day tomorrow
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> ugg I don't know why I'm so nervous about my first day tomorrow
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You'll be fine, I promise! Now, quit being so nervous!


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> lol cheat sheat to help him keep track of TAM people that's funny..grammar sheet too? lol you gotta let it go. I tend to wanna correct people's grammar too but am learning to keep it inside not to be pesty. My daughter is the same way about people's posts on fb lol



I resist to urge to correct anyone besides B1. My daughter does that on FB, as well.


----------



## B1

I just want to to post about how tough this can be. R is work, it's a lot of work and getting into the weeds about issues. Sometimes it can be frustrating when you don't both agree but then it's nice when you both come to terms with something and can see each others view point.

It's reconciling, NOT reconciled as regret told me. That's so true.

Trustiing has become much easier, forgetting not so much. The physical aspect of this A haunts the crap out of me. I have to work really hard to deal with it and talk to EI about it almost daily, in one way or another.

I have learned if I supress it, it just comes out in anger, usually explosive anger, if I release it a little at a time by addressing it with EI, or even here, then it's not so bad. In reconciliation you CANNOT suppress. Topics must be discussed, questions need to be answered, things that are bothering us must be addressed or you are putting your R in jeopardy.

I also want to say the WS has issues to that MUST be addressed, EI can suppress emotions, feelings too, mainly because she doesn't feel she has a right to be upset about anything. If she 's upset it's like tough, she has to just suck it up.. well that doesn't work in a R, she has to vent too, she has to talk about her issues as well. She has to feel comfortable to do so. 

TAM would lead you too believe the WS has to suck it all up 100%, they have no rights to be upset. Heck, if EI is having a bad day over something unrelated she still feels unworthy to be upset. She can't do that, and she is learning not to. The WS needs a shoulder too. 

I'm NOT saying EI is suppressing info, or details, etc. I am just saying that EI, or any WS, needs to talk about there feelings also, they need to feel ok to say, "I had a really bad day can we talk about it." instead of feeling unworthy to be able to talk about issues because of the A.

A successful R takes two! not the WS giving 90% and the BS giving 10% it takes both parties giving 110%.


----------



## Badblood

B1, ALL relationships require attention, not just reconciling ones. In you case , the marriage was going bad, so you have issues relating to that. But as has been said before, the responsibility for the affair belongs solely to the cheater, so That part of the equation must be dealt with by the WS, alone. Can you be supportive? Of course! Think of the affair like it was a disease. A character disease that the WS has. If the WS had cancer or any other disease, wouldn't you help ? Of course you would, as would we all. We can lend an ear or a shoulder, we can communicate our best, loving, intentions, work on the marriage issues (if any), but the task of building good character is the WS's.They have to face their demons by themselves. Like the old spiritual, " You gotta walk that lonesome valley, you gotta walk it by yourself, ain't nobody here can walk it for you, you gotta walk it by yourself".


----------



## Wazza

betrayed1 said:


> I just want to to post about how tough this can be. R is work, it's a lot of work and getting into the weeds about issues. Sometimes it can be frustrating when you don't both agree but then it's nice when you both come to terms with something and can see each others view point.
> 
> It's reconciling, NOT reconciled as regret told me. That's so true.
> 
> Trustiing has become much easier, forgetting not so much. The physical aspect of this A haunts the crap out of me. I have to work really hard to deal with it and talk to EI about it almost daily, in one way or another.
> 
> I have learned if I supress it, it just comes out in anger, usually explosive anger, if I release it a little at a time by addressing it with EI, or even here, then it's not so bad. In reconciliation you CANNOT suppress. Topics must be discussed, questions need to be answered, things that are bothering us must be addressed or you are putting your R in jeopardy.
> 
> *I also want to say the WS has issues to that MUST be addressed, EI can suppress emotions, feelings too, mainly because she doesn't feel she has a right to be upset about anything. If she 's upset it's like tough, she has to just suck it up.. well that doesn't work in a R, she has to vent too, she has to talk about her issues as well. She has to feel comfortable to do so.
> 
> TAM would lead you too believe the WS has to suck it all up 100%, they have no rights to be upset. Heck, if EI is having a bad day over something unrelated she still feels unworthy to be upset. She can't do that, and she is learning not to. The WS needs a shoulder too. *
> 
> I'm NOT saying EI is suppressing info, or details, etc. I am just saying that EI, or any WS, needs to talk about there feelings also, they need to feel ok to say, "I had a really bad day can we talk about it." instead of feeling unworthy to be able to talk about issues because of the A.
> 
> A successful R takes two! not the WS giving 90% and the BS giving 10% it takes both parties giving 110%.


Absolutely. If the spouse has issues, the marriage has issues.

We still have issues. It would be easier sometimes if I didn't love her and could see my way clear to walk away, though I know in the long term that isn't any sort of solution to anything.


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> B1, ALL relationships require attention, not just reconciling ones. In you case , the marriage was going bad, so you have issues relating to that. * But as has been said before, the responsibility for the affair belongs solely to the cheater, so That part of the equation must be dealt with by the WS, alone. Can you be supportive? Of course! Think of the affair like it was a disease. A character disease that the WS has. * If the WS had cancer or any other disease, wouldn't you help ? Of course you would, as would we all. We can lend an ear or a shoulder, we can communicate our best, loving, intentions, work on the marriage issues (if any), but the task of building good character is the WS's.They have to face their demons by themselves. Like the old spiritual, " You gotta walk that lonesome valley, you gotta walk it by yourself, ain't nobody here can walk it for you, you gotta walk it by yourself".


I'm a christian. Not wanting to bible-thump, but I need to talk about this for all my other posts to make sense. 

I believe in the notion that we all struggle with sin and we all fail, and I believe God showed us a model of undeserved grace. He's with us, helping us, when we don't deserve it, and we are commanded to follow him and be like him. We become better people through his help.

Now take away the religious belief for a minute, assume that God isn't there, and think about how that notion, as a philosophy, could change the world. Starting with us. 

Our situations are different. Your story is worse than mine, in some ways at least. As a BS who knows full well the character flaws that caused the affair (and they are still there!) I will not deny the mistakes I made that laid the ground for the affair.


----------



## Harken Banks

Wazza said:


> I believe in the notion that we all struggle with sin and we all fail.


I follow this as far as no one is perfect.

And there are problems in every marriage.

I can understand forgiveness, but not excuses.


----------



## CantSitStill

If I were to hold in my feelings and not tell Calvin I'm upset about something then I'd be right back to avoiding conflict which means I'm not changing. I have to communicate always how I am feeling or our marriage will not be good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

Wazza said:


> I'm a christian. Not wanting to bible-thump, but I need to talk about this for all my other posts to make sense.
> 
> I believe in the notion that we all struggle with sin and we all fail, and I believe God showed us a model of undeserved grace. He's with us, helping us, when we don't deserve it, and we are commanded to follow him and be like him. We become better people through his help.
> 
> Now take away the religious belief for a minute, assume that God isn't there, and think about how that notion, as a philosophy, could change the world. Starting with us.
> 
> Our situations are different. Your story is worse than mine, in some ways at least. As a BS who knows full well the character flaws that caused the affair (and they are still there!) I will not deny the mistakes I made that laid the ground for the affair.


Sorry Waz, but this last sentence is making excuses for the WS, and that is something that doesn't help either of you. And as far as Christianity goes, you STILL have to face God, BY YOURSELF and answer for your actions. Your spouse cannot do it for you.


----------



## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> If I were to hold in my feelings and not tell Calvin I'm upset about something then I'd be right back to avoiding conflict which means I'm not changing. I have to communicate always how I am feeling or our marriage will not be good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, you are so right . Conflict avoidance is absolutely lethal to R.


----------



## calvin

Badblood said:


> CSS, you are so right . Conflict avoidance is absolutely lethal to R.


She's getting much better at that too.I hated having to try and be a mindreader.
If I dont know what the problem is, there isnt much I can do to work on it.
Morning B1,EI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Badblood said:


> Sorry Waz, but this last sentence is making excuses for the WS, and that is something that doesn't help either of you. And as far as Christianity goes, you STILL have to face God, BY YOURSELF and answer for your actions. Your spouse cannot do it for you.


Agree to disagree.


----------



## Wazza

CantSitStill said:


> If I were to hold in my feelings and not tell Calvin I'm upset about something then I'd be right back to avoiding conflict which means I'm not changing. I have to communicate always how I am feeling or our marriage will not be good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you teach my wife?


----------



## CantSitStill

It ruined our marriage, I learned the hard way..I got so fed up after all these years and never said much about it. Communication really makes a difference 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> It ruined our marriage, I learned the hard way..I got so fed up after all these years and never said much about it. Communication really makes a difference
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You would'nt take me up on the MC offers.
Instead you seeked out your old hs bf.
Almost took the whole family down.
Ugh,nevermind
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Wazza said:


> I'm a christian. Not wanting to bible-thump, but I need to talk about this for all my other posts to make sense.
> 
> I believe in the notion that we all struggle with sin and we all fail, and I believe God showed us a model of undeserved grace. He's with us, helping us, when we don't deserve it, and we are commanded to follow him and be like him. We become better people through his help.
> 
> Now take away the religious belief for a minute, assume that God isn't there, and think about how that notion, as a philosophy, could change the world. Starting with us.
> 
> Our situations are different. Your story is worse than mine, in some ways at least. As a BS who knows full well the character flaws that caused the affair (and they are still there!) *I will not deny the mistakes I made that laid the ground for the affair.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I so get that wazza (in bold above)...I told EI just this morning I knew I pushed her away. Now what she did while away was her choice and all her choice....but still, I did push her away, big time.
> I laid the ground work for an affair, I created an "affair" environment so to speak...Ooo yes I said it and it's not an excuse either. It's just a fact. If I didn't push her away she wouldn't have made that horrible life altering choice, period. Her 15mo affair should have been with me, could have been with me had I been present in our marriage. Again, this isn't an excuse, or a free ride to affairville, it's just a fact about OUR marriage at the time.
> 
> 
> Now, how does this help me in R, the fact that I know she would NEVER have made that choice had I been the man I am now. I know her character flaw then was temporary, NOT permanent. This A does not mean she is a bad person, mother, daughter, or even wife. It means, temporarily, she broke, she lost her mind so to speak and went into survival mode, selfish mode, something she has never been in all her life was selfish, she gave and gave until she finally snapped.
> 
> I know her breaking point now. Now do I think she would do this again under the same circumstances, no. She would simply D, today. But she is also in a different frame of mind, a better place, more stable, why..partly because of ME , my love pulled her out of this mess, even when she was crying over him I loved her anyway..I loved her back. And that re-ignited the flame in us and it grew from their.
> 
> When everyone is screaming 180...180..go dark, kick her out etc..That's why something like that would NEVER have worked in this situation, she was already disconnected, gone. If I pulled away then we definitely would NEVER have made it. We both would have been disconnected and not communicating. After Dday It took my love and compassion to basically win her back, pull her in. This is part of R, at least for us it was.
> 
> Now here we are today, surviving this disaster, loving each other and EI is doing a lot of work to make things up to me, and me..well, I am doing a lot of work too, to make my wrongs up to her. It takes two like I said before, we are in this together, we will walk this road together, my wife will not walk it alone!


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> You would'nt take me up on the MC offers.
> Instead you seeked out your old hs bf.
> Almost took the whole family down.
> Ugh,nevermind
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We were the opposite, I wouldn't take EI up on MC offers or IC offers.

Here we are the same...
Then she sought her old bf too 
Almost took the whole family down.
Ugh,nevermind

mornin' calvin


----------



## EI

Wazza said:


> As a BS who knows full well the character flaws that caused the affair (and they are still there!) I will not deny the mistakes I made that laid the ground for the affair.





Badblood said:


> Sorry Waz, but this last sentence is making excuses for the WS, and that is something that doesn't help either of you.


Sorry BB, but in NO way is Wazza making excuses for his wife's choice to have an affair. Nor is he accepting responsibility for her character flaws. What he is saying is that *he is fully aware of the mistakes that "he" made prior to her affair that contributed to the breakdown of their marriage.* The *state of their marriage and her vulnerability/character flaws* were *factors in her decision to have an affair. * I know that there are WS's who claim to have been in satisfactory marriages who have had affairs for reasons that even they claim to not understand. But there are many others, like myself, who would have never had an affair had their marriages not have become so broken, thus becoming vulnerable. If the "state of the marriage" has no bearing upon whether or not certain individuals choose to become unfaithful, then why are there, literally, thousands of websites dedicated to "affair proofing your marriage." Wazza clearly stated that his wife's character flaws caused the affair. While making no excuses for her choice, he accepted responsibility for his mistakes in the breakdown of the marriage.

*If the intent of the BS is to reconcile the marriage then they "must" acknowledge their own mistakes in the marriage prior to the affair that contributed to the breakdown of the relationship.* So, I strongly disagree with your statement with regards to "making excuses and that not being helpful." *It is not only helpful, it is essential to a successful reconciliation *which Wazza, unlike many other BS's, has enjoyed for over 20 years. 



Wazza said:


> Agree to disagree.


I need a "like" button within a multi-quote post for this!


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> *If I were to hold in my feelings and "not tell Calvin I'm upset about something" then I'd be right back to avoiding conflict *which means I'm not changing. *I have to communicate always how I am feeling or our marriage will not be good*.





Badblood said:


> *CSS, you are so right . Conflict avoidance is absolutely lethal to R.*





betrayed1 said:


> In reconciliation you CANNOT suppress. Topics must be discussed, questions need to be answered, things that are bothering us must be addressed or you are putting your R in jeopardy.
> 
> *I also want to say the WS has issues to that MUST be addressed, EI can suppress emotions, feelings too, mainly because she doesn't feel she has a right to be upset about anything. If she 's upset it's like tough, she has to just suck it up.. well that doesn't work in a R, she has to vent too, "she has to talk about her issues as well." She has to feel comfortable to do so. *
> 
> *TAM would lead you too believe the WS has to suck it all up 100%, they have no rights to be upset. Heck, if EI is having a bad day over something unrelated she still feels unworthy to be upset. She can't do that, and she is learning not to. The WS needs a shoulder too. *
> 
> A successful R takes two! not the WS giving 90% and the BS giving 10% it takes both parties giving 110%.





Badblood said:


> B1, ALL relationships require attention, not just reconciling ones. *In you case , the marriage was going bad, so you have issues relating to that. But as has been said before, the responsibility for the affair belongs solely to the cheater, so That part of the equation must be dealt with by the WS, "alone." * *They have to face their demons by themselves. * Like the old spiritual, " You gotta walk that lonesome valley, you gotta walk it by yourself, ain't nobody here can walk it for you, you gotta walk it by yourself".


BB, do you not even begin to see the contradictions in how you responded to CSS about communicating her feelings to her BS and what you said to B1 when he stated my need to communicate my feelings to him? 

Basically you said, CSS "must communicate to her spouse to avoid conflict." But, "I must deal with my 'inner demons' ALONE." WRONG.... me attempting to deal with the shattered remains of my former marriage, ALONE, was the beginning of the end of THAT marriage. Finally, in your response to B1, you stated "the responsibility for the affair belongs solely to the cheater." Right, I've got that committed to memory now. I've acknowledged that many times with B1 and on TAM. But, it was NOT the topic of B1's post..... so why do you feel the need to keep saying it over and over and over again. That's ENOUGH BB!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> She's getting much better at that too.I hated having to try and be a mindreader.
> If I dont know what the problem is, there isnt much I can do to work on it.
> Morning B1,EI.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good morning Calvin!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> You would'nt take me up on the MC offers.
> Instead you seeked out your old hs bf.
> Almost took the whole family down.
> Ugh,nevermind





betrayed1 said:


> We were the opposite, I wouldn't take EI up on MC offers or IC offers.
> 
> Here we are the same...
> Then she sought her old bf too
> Almost took the whole family down.
> Ugh,nevermind
> 
> mornin' calvin


That post was kind of cute, B1,.... well, you know, in a morose kind of way! :scratchhead:   But, I love you!!! 

Calvin..... I'm very fond of you, too!


----------



## Badblood

EI, if you don't want me on this thread, stop calling me out. I have no wish to be here, except to defend myself. I stated earlier that we can co-exist without interaction, and I meant it. Thank you.


----------



## Wazza

betrayed1 said:


> I know her character flaw then was temporary, NOT permanent. This A does not mean she is a bad person, mother, daughter, or even wife. It means, temporarily, she broke, she lost her mind so to speak and went into survival mode, selfish mode, something she has never been in all her life was selfish, she gave and gave until she finally snapped.
> 
> I know her breaking point now. Now do I think she would do this again under the same circumstances, no.


My wife's communication issues appear permanent so far and could still wreck our marriage one day. Infidelity is only part of it. Communication is the bedrock of intimacy.

That aside she is the most decent and caring person i know. She supports me in my weaknesses and I support her in hers.

I guess people might think this is a head in the sand rug sweeping spouse thing. I just think it is the reality of people and relationships.

In part though I can feel safe with this philosophy because of who my wife is. BB has had things happen that I haven't had to deal with. I might feel very differently in his shoes.


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty please express your feelings, you really need to in order for both of you to keep a good marriage you both must always honestly express yourselves. If you don't it's like checking out and you don't wanna do that. TRUST ME
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Badblood I really do not understand why you told her not to express her feelings. It takes 2 to communicate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

B1 and EI, Calvin and CSS --and anyone else in R. You need to do what works for you as individuals as well as a married couple. There is no play book or game plan how to R. If there was -- then everyone would know what to do in order to be successful.

In our journey called life -- we all make decisions that affect us the rest of our lifes -- usually starting in high school when we get our first taste of freedom/independence from our parents/guardians. Each decision we make determines who we are today and in the future because we make decisions everyday.

From what I can tell from TAM POSTS is that CSS loves Calvin and EI loves B1. They were both unfortunate to make decisions that affected their marriages and families in a negative fashion. But these 4 are fortunate that they have a 2nd chance to start what I call a new marriage. I believe that EI and CCS have learned from their decisions and will NOT make this mistake again -- and at this point that is all we can ask.

You 4 are very fortunate -- because you all have a 2nd chance. There are many people in this world who would give anything for a 2nd chance no matter what they did -- unfortunately they will never get that chance and will regret it for as long as they live.


----------



## calvin

Jh,wow, excellent post.I agree all the way.
Beowulf giving you advice?
Yes,there is no blueprint or plan for R.Its rough and takes a lot of sweat n tears.A sh!t load of patience and work.
I do see the love Empty has for her man and I know CSS loves me,its pretty damn genuine.
No R is the same but they do follow a certain pattern in a way,everybody is different.
Yes a second chance is there because we love our spouses and believe in them or we would'nt take
a chance like this,its scarey even if the odds are
99.9999% in our favor.Dont want to get hurt again.
Yes there are a lot of people on this Earth who would kill for a do over but do overs dont excist.
Forgiveness does though.
So does faith and hope.
The look on CSS's face sometimes is hard to see.
The words written by Empty can be just as hard to read.You see and feel the remorse,regret and how much they love.
I believe they also know how bad we hurt,sure of it. 
Rough row to hoe yet but its getting there,its work and when you work on anything and accomplish your goal,you can can press on to the next goal.
Its just hard and it hurts sometimes.
Long enough for ya Empty? 

Nice post jh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Needed that encouragement jh52 thank you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Empty please express your feelings, you really need to in order for both of you to keep a good marriage you both must always honestly express yourselves. If you don't it's like checking out and you don't wanna do that. TRUST ME


Oh c'mon, CSS, do you think I am ever at a loss for words??? LOL  I express my feelings... I always have... for a long time B1 wasn't listening, but he is now. It's just that, at times, when I am feeling stressed over things, particularly things that are not reconciliation/affair related, I've almost felt guilty "bothering" B1 with them. They seem small and petty. I've never been that way before and it's already getting better. B1 and I are so in tune with each other now, that all we have to do is see the look on the other's face to know that something is bothering one of us. We address anything and everything immediately these days. We don't let hurt, resentment or anger build up, at all, anymore.

This is all very hard stuff..... be we're in it to win it!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Jh,wow, excellent post.I agree all the way.
> Beowulf giving you advice?
> Yes,there is no blueprint or plan for R.Its rough and takes a lot of sweat n tears.A sh!t load of patience and work.
> I do see the love Empty has for her man and I know CSS loves me,its pretty damn genuine.
> No R is the same but they do follow a certain pattern in a way,everybody is different.
> Yes a second chance is there because we love our spouses and believe in them or we would'nt take
> a chance like this,its scarey even if the odds are
> 99.9999% in our favor.Dont want to get hurt again.
> Yes there are a lot of people on this Earth who would kill for a do over but do overs dont excist.
> Forgiveness does though.
> So does faith and hope.
> The look on CSS's face sometimes is hard to see.
> The words written by Empty can be just as hard to read.You see and feel the remorse,regret and how much they love.
> I believe they also know how bad we hurt,sure of it.
> Rough row to hoe yet but its getting there,its work and when you work on anything and accomplish your goal,you can can press on to the next goal.
> Its just hard and it hurts sometimes.
> Long enough for ya Empty?
> 
> Nice post jh




That was beautiful, Calvin. I cried through the whole damn thing..... read it out loud to B1 and could hardly get the words out for the tears.... 'til I got to the last sentence, "Long enough for ya Empty?  Then, I LMAO :rofl:


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> B1 and EI, Calvin and CSS --and anyone else in R. You need to do what works for you as individuals as well as a married couple. There is no play book or game plan how to R. If there was -- then everyone would know what to do in order to be successful.
> 
> In our journey called life -- we all make decisions that affect us the rest of our lifes -- usually starting in high school when we get our first taste of freedom/independence from our parents/guardians. Each decision we make determines who we are today and in the future because we make decisions everyday.
> 
> From what I can tell from TAM POSTS is that CSS loves Calvin and EI loves B1. They were both unfortunate to make decisions that affected their marriages and families in a negative fashion. But these 4 are fortunate that they have a 2nd chance to start what I call a new marriage. I believe that EI and CCS have learned from their decisions and will NOT make this mistake again -- and at this point that is all we can ask.
> 
> You 4 are very fortunate -- because you all have a 2nd chance. There are many people in this world who would give anything for a 2nd chance no matter what they did -- unfortunately they will never get that chance and will regret it for as long as they live.


Thank you jh, that was very kind.... and kind is a good thing! I needed that today. I do think that every reconciliation is a very personal process, unique to every couple and every situation. No two people, no two marriages, and no two reconciliations can be exactly alike. Therefore, the process of reconciliation must be tweaked accordingly. B1 and I are discovering our own way as we go along. It has not been easy.... but it has been worth it! 

Tomorrow morning when I get up it's going to be another one of those crazy, non-stop, running around, getting things done, deadlines..... kind of days! I know that I have a couple of threads that I need to post on.... but, tonight I have to get some sleep... so this lady is going to bed early. Oh wait, it's already after midnight... still, it's about 2 hours earlier than usual! 

Good night............... :sleeping:


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> B1 and EI, Calvin and CSS --and anyone else in R. You need to do what works for you as individuals as well as a married couple. There is no play book or game plan how to R. If there was -- then everyone would know what to do in order to be successful.
> 
> In our journey called life -- we all make decisions that affect us the rest of our lifes -- usually starting in high school when we get our first taste of freedom/independence from our parents/guardians. Each decision we make determines who we are today and in the future because we make decisions everyday.
> 
> From what I can tell from TAM POSTS is that CSS loves Calvin and EI loves B1. They were both unfortunate to make decisions that affected their marriages and families in a negative fashion. But these 4 are fortunate that they have a 2nd chance to start what I call a new marriage. I believe that EI and CCS have learned from their decisions and will NOT make this mistake again -- and at this point that is all we can ask.
> 
> You 4 are very fortunate -- because you all have a 2nd chance. There are many people in this world who would give anything for a 2nd chance no matter what they did -- unfortunately they will never get that chance and will regret it for as long as they live.


Thank you jh, the words of encouragement mean a lot. 

EI has been a little down lately overall, not horribly but just a little down. This is such hard work and WE KNOW it's hard work and it's not easy. We also know their is no a quick fix, this will take a long time. It's a process. Your encouragement couldn't have come at a better time! Thank you.


----------



## B1

We both have IC today, I am anxiously awaiting it. I have some things I really want to cover.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> We both have IC today, I am anxiously awaiting it. I have some things I really want to cover.


Praying for you both to have productive IC sessions -- and that you both continue to grow within your new marriage !!


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey B1 and Em, just checking in to see how counseling went. Hope you two are having a good Friday. I sure am glad I was off today. It's nice to catch up on house cleaning and I believe my first check is coming direct deposit to my bank today  yay me! Gonna check on that soon. Calvin is napping so that I can wear him out a little later 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Hey CSS, counseling for me was really good as usual. Sadly, EI had to cancel hers because she had to take our son to PT. 

We have been talking for the last couple hours about us and my session and other things. We are going out on a date here in a bit. I can't wait to take this beautiful lady out to dinner. She will tell you it's the testosterone injections that makes me say that, but it's not, it's really the booze :rofl: j/k


----------



## Regret214

B1... Dig says "get some!!!

I don't know why though... We're getting ready for a date night at the beach, too. Going to Jimmy's seafood buffet!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Hey CSS, counseling for me was really good as usual. Sadly, EI had to cancel hers because she had to take our son to PT.
> 
> We have been talking for the last couple hours about us and my session and other things. We are going out on a date here in a bit. I can't wait to take this beautiful lady out to dinner. She will tell you it's the testosterone injections that makes me say that, but it's not, it's really the booze :rofl: j/k





Regret214 said:


> B1... Dig says "get some!!!
> 
> I don't know why though... We're getting ready for a date night at the beach, too. Going to Jimmy's seafood buffet!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really love this thread when things are going well !!

B1 and Dig -- YOU THE MEN !!!:smthumbup:

Hi EI and Regret !!


----------



## calvin

Damn,I want to go out late tonight....ugh,4 am...sigh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Damn,I want to go out late tonight....ugh,4 am...sigh
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin --- take CSS out on a date tomorrow night !!:smthumbup:


----------



## warlock07

Regret214 said:


> B1... Dig says "get some!!!
> 
> I don't know why though... We're getting ready for a date night at the beach, too. Going to Jimmy's seafood buffet!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


how is he coping with TAM withdrawal?


----------



## Almostrecovered

First come the shakes


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Calvin --- take CSS out on a date tomorrow night !!:smthumbup:


Made reservations at chuck e cheese,am I smooth or what?
Yup,come home get a nap in,you know what Saturdays are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

Almostrecovered said:


> First come the shakes


...as you can see by Almostrecovered's avatar 

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## B1

What a really nice day and date. We have talked non stop since I got back from therapy. It's so nice to have a really good pain free day!!! I hope everyone else is having a good day too!

Reconciliation = lots and lots of talking, ok where EI is concerned it's more like lots and lots of listening


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin is napping so that I can wear him out a little later



Sooooooooo............ 

Did you have a nice evening? I know you have to tuck Calvin in early since he has to get up before the chickens every morning!


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Sooooooooo............
> 
> Did you have a nice evening? I know you have to tuck Calvin in early since he has to get up before the chickens every morning!


The chickens,birds and crickets laugh at me everymorning!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> What a really nice day and date. We have talked non stop since I got back from therapy. It's so nice to have a really good pain free day!!! I hope everyone else is having a good day too!
> 
> Reconciliation = lots and lots of talking,* ok where EI is concerned it's more like lots and lots of listening *



Huuuuuuneeeee????   You're not s'posed to say thaaaat....... to those TAM people..... that's our secret!


----------



## EI

Regret214 said:


> B1... Dig says "get some!!!


Oh my............... do y'all think that's the reason that he keeps taking me out on all of these "dates?" 



Regret214 said:


> I don't know why though... We're getting ready for a date night at the beach, too. Going to Jimmy's seafood buffet!



The beach..... Jimmy's seafood buffet............... Oooooooooh.... sounds blissful! 


We had a lovely dinner date and I had a Margarita (you know what they say about Tequila) and B1 had a few beers. When our server asked if we wanted dessert, B1 said "no." I think he's planning to eat dessert a little later............... I hope so!!!! 

Well, crapola..... in the time that I have spent lollygagging around on TAM, B1 has fallen asleep on the couch and is snoring. I'll tell you what, I'm gonna wake his a$$ up..... he's gonna have his dessert......

Well, gotta run..... I've gotta "briefly" change into something a little less comfortable!!!!!


----------



## Regret214

warlock07 said:


> how is he coping with TAM withdrawal?



Honestly, he's been pretty bummed out because he's seen a few threads he would like to help on. Oh, well...9/10 is parole! LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Oh my............... do y'all think that's the reason that he keeps taking me out on all of these "dates?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The beach..... Jimmy's seafood buffet............... Oooooooooh.... sounds blissful!
> 
> 
> We had a lovely dinner date and I had a Margarita (you know what they say about Tequila) and B1 had a few beers. When our server asked if we wanted dessert, B1 said "no." I think he's planning to eat dessert a little later............... I hope so!!!!
> 
> Well, crapola..... in the time that I have spent lollygagging around on TAM, B1 has fallen asleep on the couch and is snoring. I'll tell you what, I'm gonna wake his a$$ up..... he's gonna have his dessert......
> 
> Well, gotta run..... I've gotta "briefly" change into something a little less comfortable!!!!!


:lol::lol::iagree::iagree::iagree::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Regret214

By the way, Dig in his motorcycle club vest posing with a little pony - CLASSIC!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Regret214 said:


> Honestly, he's been pretty bummed out because he's seen a few threads he would like to help on. Oh, well...9/10 is parole! LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi Regret:

Unfortunately this site is like groundhog day and when Dig gets back there will always be plenty of people needing help.


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> Oh my............... do y'all think that's the reason that he keeps taking me out on all of these "dates?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The beach..... Jimmy's seafood buffet............... Oooooooooh.... sounds blissful!
> 
> 
> We had a lovely dinner date and I had a Margarita (you know what they say about Tequila) and B1 had a few beers. When our server asked if we wanted dessert, B1 said "no." I think he's planning to eat dessert a little later............... I hope so!!!!
> 
> Well, crapola..... in the time that I have spent lollygagging around on TAM, B1 has fallen asleep on the couch and is snoring. I'll tell you what, I'm gonna wake his a$$ up..... he's gonna have his dessert......
> 
> Well, gotta run..... I've gotta "briefly" change into something a little less comfortable!!!!!


giggling here..you crack me up, he said that to the waitress?? lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hello?? Where are you guys at today?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Been a busy day, EI is working on the house, doing laundry, being a little grumpy  and our grandson is here keeping us busy. I am chilling. I'm sure EI will be on here later tonight.

Something pretty cool did happen today. The time was 12:23pm and I realized the A had not crossed my mind once. Of course I was busy as can be this morning working on our computers, EI had a trojan virus that I had to get rid of. I looked at the clock and noticed it was 12:23 and never once did I think of the A. I realize it will not always be that way but still it was nice. And of course it's in my head now but hey I had 4 hours of freedom from A thoughts.


----------



## CantSitStill

That means it's slowly getting better. Today would've been ok yet again Calvin saw the OM in his truck on his way home today ugggg wish the OM would drink himself to death or move far away. uggg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Been a busy day, EI is working on the house, doing laundry, being a little grumpy  and our grandson is here keeping us busy. I am chilling. I'm sure EI will be on here later tonight.
> 
> Something pretty cool did happen today. The time was 12:23pm and I realized the A had not crossed my mind once. Of course I was busy as can be this morning working on our computers, EI had a trojan virus that I had to get rid of. I looked at the clock and noticed it was 12:23 and never once did I think of the A. I realize it will not always be that way but still it was nice. And of course it's in my head now but hey I had 4 hours of freedom from A thoughts.


B1,I've been noticing that also.
Oh yeah,its there but sometimes I dont think about it.Today is not one of those days tho but I can go two days now without it bothering me at all.
I think its the love CSS has been showing and the work she does,on us,kids,her new job and a lot more than that.
Empty is a good girl,judging by what she writes,
I see she is throwing it all out there.You two will be good.Me and CSS will be good also.
Its hard but very possible.
I love it when I prove someone wrong! ):- )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> B1,I've been noticing that also.
> Oh yeah,its there but sometimes I dont think about it.Today is not one of those days tho but I can go two days now without it bothering me at all.
> I think its the love CSS has been showing and the work she does,on us,kids,her new job and a lot more than that.
> Empty is a good girl,judging by what she writes,
> I see she is throwing it all out there.You two will be good.Me and CSS will be good also.
> Its hard but very possible.
> I love it when I prove someone wrong! ):- )
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love positive posts from all parties on this thread !!

These posts cheer me up Calvin !!


----------



## calvin

Well I think its true.Hard but true,the reward is there for all of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I like this too, it's like Calvin and B1 have a buddy support system with eachother and I have Em  Having support with people that have been in your shoes really helps. I'm really impressed how Calvin's been controlling the triggers better day by day. Little bit of progress along the way is good 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I hope you don't mind EmptyInside but I like calling you Em.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I hope you don't mind EmptyInside but I like calling you Em.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't mind, at all, I've been called much worse..... just ask B1...... LOL ;-) Ha Ha, good thing I can laugh about that these days. I missed you guys today, but I've been busy trying to get things caught up around here. Day-to-day things have fallen by the wayside in the last 3 months. Did I read where B1 said I was "grumpy" earlier? Well, I'm not even gonna go into thaaaaat! But, it's good, now. B1 and I are relaxing on the couch..... grandson is wreaking havoc on the dog (the non-biting dog,) the furniture, the carpet, anything he can get into. Daughter and S-I-L are here... Things are good! Our daughter just told us that we were laying on the couch, inappropriately, and that we can't do that while I'm wearing sweatpants. B1 was very strict and wouldn't allow her to lay on the couch with her, then bf, now husband, wearing loose fitting clothes.... when they were teenagers! She is trying to turn the tables on us now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> Love positive posts from all parties on this thread !!
> 
> These posts cheer me up Calvin !!


Do you need cheering up? Is everything okay? I can't find the emoticons on this phone.... :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Well I think its true.Hard but true,the reward is there for all of us.


Hey Calvin, I think it's nice that you guys visit our thread. You and B1 are good for each other. Now, we just need Dig to get busted from the pen/beach.... I don't think he's suffering too much right now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I got alot of the fun house chores done too so I know how we love to be cheerful and never gumpy when we clean daily to see everyone mess it all up again.. oh don't you love it? lol Have a good night and yes it will be nice to get Dig back on here. I understand his frustration yet don't want to elaborate about anything about what anyone else says or anything to get myself banned so I had to keep my mouth shut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Do you need cheering up? Is everything okay? I can't find the emoticons on this phone.... :-(
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hanging in today EI. Got up early (3:00am) to finish some contracts and other work before my wife woke up. We were having a good day and then she got her headache, followed by her vomit episode and now her speech has slowed again -- thus she had a minor brain seizure once again today. She is resting now -- and I am exhausted. Hope we both can sleep tonight. She has a doctors appt Tuesday as they try and diagnose the cause of these brain seizures. I know you guys have been through alot this year as well -- but I can't wait till 2012 is history. It has not been a good year health wise.

Thanks for listening -- and I guess I hijacked the thread -- so sorry for that.

Glad you and B1 are enjoying family time tonight !!


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Hanging in today EI. Got up early (3:00am) to finish some contracts and other work before my wife woke up. We were having a good day and then she got her headache, followed by her vomit episode and now her speech has slowed again -- thus she had a minor brain seizure once again today. She is resting now -- and I am exhausted. Hope we both can sleep tonight. She has a doctors appt Tuesday as they try and diagnose the cause of these brain seizures. I know you guys have been through alot this year as well -- but I can't wait till 2012 is history. It has not been a good year health wise.
> 
> Thanks for listening -- and I guess I hijacked the thread -- so sorry for that.
> 
> Glad you and B1 are enjoying family time tonight !!


Damn jh,I'm sorry man.
I remember you said she had health problems but I didnt want to pry.I hope its bearable.
Got you on the prayer list jh.
I feel bad now.You reached out and helped a lot
of people out here.You never complained.
God bless you and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Damn jh,I'm sorry man.
> I remember you said she had health problems but I didnt want to pry.I hope its bearable.
> Got you on the prayer list jh.
> I feel bad now.You reached out and helped a lot
> of people out here.You never complained.
> God bless you and your family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Calvin -- appreciate the prayers.


----------



## joe kidd

jh52 said:


> Thanks Calvin -- appreciate the prayers.


Throw mine in too.


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> Hanging in today EI. Got up early (3:00am) to finish some contracts and other work before my wife woke up. We were having a good day and then she got her headache, followed by her vomit episode and now her speech has slowed again -- thus she had a minor brain seizure once again today. She is resting now -- and I am exhausted. Hope we both can sleep tonight. She has a doctors appt Tuesday as they try and diagnose the cause of these brain seizures. I know you guys have been through alot this year as well -- but I can't wait till 2012 is history. It has not been a good year health wise.
> 
> Thanks for listening -- and I guess I hijacked the thread -- so sorry for that.
> 
> Glad you and B1 are enjoying family time tonight !!


jh, I'm so sorry that your wife is having such serious health issues. You are so positive and upbeat all of the time. You offer encouragement to all of us and never ask for anything in return. You are always welcome to share you burdens with us on this thread. That's why we're all here. Never apologize for thread jacking. Your compassion has lifted our spirits more than you know. Please give us the opportunity to do the same for you. From now on, keep us updated so that we can encourage you, lift your spirits and know when to keep you in our prayers. I know how hard it can be taking care of someone who is chronically ill. I'm sorry that your wife is ill and I'm sorry that you don't yet have all of the answers about her condition, but I'm so glad you shared it with us. We will all be praying for you, your wife and for positive news at her next appt. 
Take care, jh
EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

jh52 said:


> Hanging in today EI. Got up early (3:00am) to finish some contracts and other work before my wife woke up. We were having a good day and then she got her headache, followed by her vomit episode and now her speech has slowed again -- thus she had a minor brain seizure once again today. She is resting now -- and I am exhausted. Hope we both can sleep tonight. She has a doctors appt Tuesday as they try and diagnose the cause of these brain seizures. I know you guys have been through alot this year as well -- but I can't wait till 2012 is history. It has not been a good year health wise.
> 
> Thanks for listening -- and I guess I hijacked the thread -- so sorry for that.
> 
> Glad you and B1 are enjoying family time tonight !!


I hope that B1 and EI won't mind. I wasn't going to come on to this thread, but I wanted to express my sympathy and concern for you, JH, and add my own prayers for the speedy recovery of your wife. I pray that you also will have the strength to endure, and that the future will be better for you both. PM me anytime you need an ear to hear.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> Hanging in today EI. Got up early (3:00am) to finish some contracts and other work before my wife woke up. We were having a good day and then she got her headache, followed by her vomit episode and now her speech has slowed again -- thus she had a minor brain seizure once again today. She is resting now -- and I am exhausted. Hope we both can sleep tonight. She has a doctors appt Tuesday as they try and diagnose the cause of these brain seizures. I know you guys have been through alot this year as well -- but I can't wait till 2012 is history. It has not been a good year health wise.
> 
> Thanks for listening -- and I guess I hijacked the thread -- so sorry for that.
> 
> Glad you and B1 are enjoying family time tonight !!


JH, So sorry your going through this, the not knowing has to be one of the hardest parts. You have my prayers also. Please do keep us informed if you don't mind.

Our PM box is also open anytime you need to talk. We are no stranger to health issues in this family.

God bless you and your wife JH.


----------



## B1

Reconciliation = Means that the BS not bring up the gory details of affair sex because it hurts your WS and hurts R overall?

Now, keep in mind I already have the details, So this isn't about getting the details, it's about bringing them up again and again in conversations.

My counselor really wants me to try and NOT discuss the details of the affair sex with EI. He claims it still like gathering ammo, and I'm just trying to compare me and the xOM, and both are pointless and meaningless especially when your are trying to move forward and R. 

He says it's still kind of like punching her in the nose too. I know that it does hurt EI when I bring it up, she always gets down afterwards. She says it mainly upsets her because it upsets me then she feels horrible for me. I have to admit once I am done I really don't feel a lot better and EI usually feels a lot worse.

**Note:* EI will ALWAYS talk about it with me. This isn't an EI wont thing, it's more of the counselor recommends I don't thing.


----------



## calvin

Ahhh,my one day off.Morning B1 and Empty.
I guess I would want to know the details so my imagination wouldnt be running wild.I've already asked CSS everything there is about POSOM to see how he stacks up to me..He doesnt even come close.Its natural to want to know everything you can.
You both have a good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Ahhh,my one day off.Morning B1 and Empty.
> I guess I would want to know the details so my imagination wouldnt be running wild.I've already asked CSS everything there is about POSOM to see how he stacks up to me..He doesnt even come close.Its natural to want to know everything you can.
> You both have a good day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good Morning Calvin! So, how late do you sleep in on your one day off?


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Good Morning Calvin! So, how late do you sleep in on your one day off?


Little after nine today,stayed up late with my boy watching stuff about the Mars rover and SNL of course. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Thanks Everyone for the thoughts and prayers. I really apreciate the support.

I think what happened yesterday was just me not having enough sleep, work, life, as well as wife doing better for a while then having another episode.

I know we have all been there -- it's like your emotional glass should be kept at half to three quarters full -- but at times that glass does overflow -- and you have one of those days. Hope this analogy nakes sense.

I will keep everyone updated -- just ask to keep us in your thoughts and prayers.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Reconciliation = Means that the BS not bring up the gory details of affair sex because it hurts your WS and hurts R overall?
> 
> Now, keep in mind I already have the details, So this isn't about getting the details, it's about bringing them up again and again in conversations.
> 
> My counselor really wants me to try and NOT discuss the details of the affair sex with EI. He claims it still like gathering ammo, and I'm just trying to compare me and the xOM, and both are pointless and meaningless especially when your are trying to move forward and R.
> 
> He says it's still kind of like punching her in the nose too. I know that it does hurt EI when I bring it up, she always gets down afterwards. She says it mainly upsets her because it upsets me then she feels horrible for me. I have to admit once I am done I really don't feel a lot better and EI usually feels a lot worse.
> 
> **Note:* EI will ALWAYS talk about it with me. This isn't an EI wont thing, it's more of the counselor recommends I don't thing.


Hi B1 -- I wonder if you do this subconciously to find out if EI has TT you and haven't told you all.

If you are satisfied with EI's responses/details -- when you have these thoughts to discuss the details again with EI -- please remember this is NOT getting you any better -- and it is hurting EI. 

I know you wouldn't hurt EI physically --- like slapping her or punching her -- but if you are doing this again with no reason or benefit -- to me it's like slapping or punching her emotionally -- which hurts just as much if not more than anything physical.

Prayers for you and EI -- so you can break this behaviour pattern.


----------



## calvin

Rain,rain go away...f*ck it,we're having tater soup and beer today. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> Hi B1 -- I wonder if you do this subconciously to find out if EI has TT you and haven't told you all.
> 
> If you are satisfied with EI's responses/details -- when you have these thoughts to discuss the details again with EI -- please remember this is NOT getting you any better -- and it is hurting EI.
> 
> I know you wouldn't hurt EI physically --- like slapping her or punching her -- but if you are doing this again with no reason or benefit -- to me it's like slapping or punching her emotionally -- which hurts just as much if not more than anything physical.
> 
> Prayers for you and EI -- so you can break this behaviour pattern.


Yep, sounds just like my therapist 

EI definitely isn't TT me. I have all the information I could ever want and more. She has been an open book. And even now she will answer me, comfort me if I am sad when this issue arises.

It's just the physical part haunts me some days and it hurts to think about what all they did. It just gets in my head sometimes and I can't get it out, then I feel like I have to talk about it.
My therapist says bring it to our sessions which is fine but I can't go as often as it bothers me.

Oddly the last few days have been so much better. My IC session was this past Friday, I guess I got it all out then and that helps a lot.


----------



## theroad

betrayed1 said:


> Yep, sounds just like my therapist
> 
> EI definitely isn't TT me. I have all the information I could ever want and more. She has been an open book. And even now she will answer me, comfort me if I am sad when this issue arises.
> 
> It's just the physical part haunts me some days and it hurts to think about what all they did. It just gets in my head sometimes and I can't get it out, then I feel like I have to talk about it.
> My therapist says bring it to our sessions which is fine but I can't go as often as it bothers me.
> 
> Oddly the last few days have been so much better. My IC session was this past Friday, I guess I got it all out then and that helps a lot.


Refresh my memory. How long was the affair. How long ago did it happen?
How long ago was your dday? Did you get trickle truthed?
How long has it been since you got the whole truth?


----------



## CantSitStill

I remember a MC session where Calvin and I sat facing eachother, he talked, I listened. We looked eachother in the eyes and he told me how bad I hurt him for about 30min he talked about all the ways I hurt him. The last 15 min was me telling him how sorry I was. It helped him alot . It was a good session. Time to make the homemade soup 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Yep, sounds just like my therapist
> 
> EI definitely isn't TT me. I have all the information I could ever want and more. She has been an open book. And even now she will answer me, comfort me if I am sad when this issue arises.
> 
> It's just the physical part haunts me some days and it hurts to think about what all they did. It just gets in my head sometimes and I can't get it out, then I feel like I have to talk about it.
> My therapist says bring it to our sessions which is fine but I can't go as often as it bothers me.
> 
> Oddly the last few days have been so much better. My IC session was this past Friday, I guess I got it all out then and that helps a lot.


Some might not believe it but CSS TT'd me for maybe a few hours in the first couple days,that was it.
It helped me to get it all out there.Some small stuff here and there came up with my questions and they were small things.
Eachone nailed me like a sledgehammer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

betrayed1 said:


> He claims it still like gathering ammo, and I'm just trying to compare me and the xOM, and both are pointless and meaningless especially when your are trying to move forward and R.
> 
> He says it's still kind of like punching her in the nose too. I know that it does hurt EI when I bring it up, she always gets down afterwards. She says it mainly upsets her because it upsets me then she feels horrible for me. I have to admit once I am done I really don't feel a lot better and EI usually feels a lot worse.


This strikes a chord with me. I've been thinking about it for a long time.

My wife is very non-confrontational...she handles the affair by burying it.

Recently we have been talking about it. Every time our marriage gets to a new level I find it necessary to go back and revisit things to sort my head out, and allow myself to feel a deeper emotional connection to her.

She cannot understand why it is important to me. She genuinely believes I bring the past up to hurt her, or to gain leverage in discussions.

Those of you who were the wayward spouse, I would love your perspective on how we can have these discussions without me causing my wife undue pain. And knowing that wayward spouses sometimes cop harsh treatment around here, if you have something you want to say but not publicly, I am ok with PMs and will keep anything you say between us. But on the board is better if you are comfortable, as I can't be the only BS who needs this information.


----------



## CantSitStill

It's just so hard as a WS to go back and talk about it because it makes me physically sick. I hate the memories of this person I can't believe was even me. There is no good way to talk about it but that doesn't mean that I refuse to, it just means I don't like the memories and I wish it never happened and so it sucks to talk about yet that is my problem. I caused this not him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Ugh
Sometimes I wish.........wish in one hand,work in the other.
Its getting back to good...work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Yep, sounds just like my therapist
> 
> EI definitely isn't TT me. I have all the information I could ever want and more. She has been an open book. And even now she will answer me, comfort me if I am sad when this issue arises.
> 
> It's just the physical part haunts me some days and it hurts to think about what all they did. It just gets in my head sometimes and I can't get it out, then I feel like I have to talk about it.
> My therapist says bring it to our sessions which is fine but I can't go as often as it bothers me.
> 
> Oddly the last few days have been so much better. My IC session was this past Friday, I guess I got it all out then and that helps a lot.


"My therapist says bring it to our sessions which is fine but I can't go as often as it bothers me."

B1 -- let me make a couple of suggestions and I am not trying to be your 2nd therapist -- but when you feel this way -- just leave the room, go grab a pen and piece of paper and write down what you were going to say to EI. Once you complete it, read it again - take a deep breathe then shred or tear the paper up.

Another suggestion would be to get on TAM -- and if you got anyone specific you are friends with -- just PM them and vent away -- as long as you trust that person to just read it and delete the words so they don’t come back to hurt you or EI. I will volunteer to be that person.

The thing about saying words to people especially the spoken word is that once they leave your mouth -- then can never be taken back. The same with an email or text -- once you hit that send button -- there is no taking those words back.

I have learned this trick in life -- especially with work emails when someone pisses me off -- to write am email -- store it in my draft folder -- and re-read it 24 hours later. Most of the time I have just deleted that email I wrote --because that moment has passed. 

You and EI seem to be doing very well -- and would hate to see something derail your R.


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> It's just so hard as a WS to go back and talk about it because it makes me physically sick. I hate the memories of this person I can't believe was even me. There is no good way to talk about it but that doesn't mean that I refuse to, it just means I don't like the memories and I wish it never happened and so it sucks to talk about yet that is my problem. I caused this not him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS -- you have learned your lesson -- you have become a better person -- you love Calvin more today then you ever thought possible. It sucks what you did -- but you two have gotten another chance which is heading toward a new marriage.

Just like Calvin will never forget -- you will never forget -- but that is not necessarily a bad thing in your case.


----------



## B1

theroad said:


> Refresh my memory. How long was the affair. How long ago did it happen?
> How long ago was your dday? Did you get trickle truthed?
> How long has it been since you got the whole truth?


The A was 15 months. From Feb 2011 to May 2012 with about a 6 week break in early 2011 which was DDay #1 and we rug swept it big time.
May 27th 2012 was Dday#2 and she TT'd roughly until June 13th when she told me it was a PA and not just an EA for the last 10mo. Kind of confusing but on Dday #2 she was still "in love" with the xOM and wasn't sure she wanted to work it out. She wanted to wait until counseling to bring everything to light. I pushed for answers on June 13th and she opened up and has been an open book every since.

So, I got the whole truth June 13th. Everything I asked she answered, and I asked for a lot of details. We have covered the details from every angle. I sometimes just ask again and again or just want to talk about it sometimes without really knowing what I want from it. 

We still spend hours a day talking about the a, covering different aspects of it.

Yes, it's still new, the wounds are still fresh but we are moving along very well. We both still hurt, and at times we both cry and comfort each other. Talking about the sex with her over and over hurts her, I know. Now, she won't say that, she says if I need to talk about it then she will, without hesitation, talk about it. Our counselor, as I stated, is just very against it.


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> It's just so hard as a WS to go back and talk about it because it makes me physically sick. I hate the memories of this person I can't believe was even me. There is no good way to talk about it but that doesn't mean that I refuse to, it just means I don't like the memories and I wish it never happened and so it sucks to talk about yet that is my problem. I caused this not him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EI has said the same thing, she has literally thrown up before after one of my talks about this. It makes her ill.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> "My therapist says bring it to our sessions which is fine but I can't go as often as it bothers me."
> 
> B1 -- let me make a couple of suggestions and I am not trying to be your 2nd therapist -- but when you feel this way -- just leave the room, go grab a pen and piece of paper and write down what you were going to say to EI. Once you complete it, read it again - take a deep breathe then shred or tear the paper up.
> 
> Another suggestion would be to get on TAM -- and if you got anyone specific you are friends with -- just PM them and vent away -- as long as you trust that person to just read it and delete the words so they don’t come back to hurt you or EI. I will volunteer to be that person.
> 
> The thing about saying words to people especially the spoken word is that once they leave your mouth -- then can never be taken back. The same with an email or text -- once you hit that send button -- there is no taking those words back.
> 
> I have learned this trick in life -- especially with work emails when someone pisses me off -- to write am email -- store it in my draft folder -- and re-read it 24 hours later. Most of the time I have just deleted that email I wrote --because that moment has passed.
> 
> You and EI seem to be doing very well -- and would hate to see something derail your R.


WOW, thank you JH, I have actually done this, I have written emails to EI talking about the sex and then deleted it.

My therapist suggested I write this stuff down then burn it. 

I will admit though, I have not been doing it much lately. I WILL start doing this more often, I have PM'd a couple people on here before regarding this and I feel comfortable doing so again if I need to. Don't be shocked JH if I add you to the list  my rants can be pretty graphic though. 

I will admit after writing it, I do feel better. I just need to learn to do it before going it to EI and cutting loose on her.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> WOW, thank you JH, I have actually done this, I have written emails to EI talking about the sex and then deleted it.
> 
> My therapist suggested I write this stuff down then burn it.
> 
> I will admit though, I have not been doing it much lately. I WILL start doing this more often, I have PM'd a couple people on here before regarding this and I feel comfortable doing so again if I need to. Don't be shocked JH if I add you to the list  my rants can be pretty graphic though.
> 
> I will admit after writing it, I do feel better. I just need to learn to do it before going it to EI and cutting loose on her.


I am too old to be shocked by anything B1 !!:smthumbup:


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## calvin

Oh God
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Oh God what Calvin ??


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## calvin

night guys,nothing.
All cool.
Yriggered but it went away pretty quick,thats a good thing.
Night all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theroad

betrayed1 said:


> The A was 15 months. From Feb 2011 to May 2012 with about a 6 week break in early 2011 which was DDay #1 and we rug swept it big time.
> May 27th 2012 was Dday#2 and she TT'd roughly until June 13th when she told me it was a PA and not just an EA for the last 10mo. Kind of confusing but on Dday #2 she was still "in love" with the xOM and wasn't sure she wanted to work it out. She wanted to wait until counseling to bring everything to light. I pushed for answers on June 13th and she opened up and has been an open book every since.
> 
> So, I got the whole truth June 13th. Everything I asked she answered, and I asked for a lot of details. We have covered the details from every angle. I sometimes just ask again and again or just want to talk about it sometimes without really knowing what I want from it.
> 
> We still spend hours a day talking about the a, covering different aspects of it.


Two months past dday your life is suppose to be unsettled and your emotions will be like a roller coaster ride. Recovery is a 2 to 5 year process.

Now that your WW has told you every thing and you have reasked her many times in different ways. BH's do this as a way to confirm that there WW story does not change and if any shread of fact has been missed it has been found.

Time to move away from talking about the affair on an every day basis. At this point you need to stop talking about the affair on a daily basis.

Just because you recall some aspect of the affair and it gets you down there is no reason to rehash it with WW.

Just go about your day and those feelings will pass. With time the feelings will happen less often and will be less servre.

I would give yourself 1 hour a week, say every Tuesday evening to talk about the affair with your WW if you need to have something clarified. Don't talk just to say the same stuff over and over or go past that 1 hour. Never do this during the rest of the week because that time is to be used to work on recovery. Spending that time on companionship.

Do this the next three weeks, then after Sept 11 close the book on talking about the affair.


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## CantSitStill

theroad said:


> Two months past dday your life is suppose to be unsettled and your emotions will be like a roller coaster ride. Recovery is a 2 to 5 year process.
> 
> Now that your WW has told you every thing and you have reasked her many times in different ways. BH's do this as a way to confirm that there WW story does not change and if any shread of fact has been missed it has been found.
> 
> Time to move away from talking about the affair on an every day basis. At this point you need to stop talking about the affair on a daily basis.
> 
> Just because you recall some aspect of the affair and it gets you down there is no reason to rehash it with WW.
> 
> Just go about your day and those feelings will pass. With time the feelings will happen less often and will be less servre.
> 
> I would give yourself 1 hour a week, say every Tuesday evening to talk about the affair with your WW if you need to have something clarified. Don't talk just to say the same stuff over and over or go past that 1 hour. Never do this during the rest of the week because that time is to be used to work on recovery. Spending that time on companionship.
> 
> Do this the next three weeks, then after Sept 11 close the book on talking about the affair.


I like your advice, R is hard and well there are times the BS feels the need to talk about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Morning Empty,B1..you two have a good day 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Morning folks --- rise and shine !!!

Everyone on this thread has a nice day.

Hey B1 and EI.


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## B1

theroad said:


> Two months past dday your life is suppose to be unsettled and your emotions will be like a roller coaster ride. Recovery is a 2 to 5 year process.
> 
> Now that your WW has told you every thing and you have reasked her many times in different ways. BH's do this as a way to confirm that there WW story does not change and if any shread of fact has been missed it has been found.
> 
> Time to move away from talking about the affair on an every day basis. At this point you need to stop talking about the affair on a daily basis.
> 
> Just because you recall some aspect of the affair and it gets you down there is no reason to rehash it with WW.
> 
> Just go about your day and those feelings will pass. With time the feelings will happen less often and will be less servre.
> 
> I would give yourself 1 hour a week, say every Tuesday evening to talk about the affair with your WW if you need to have something clarified. Don't talk just to say the same stuff over and over or go past that 1 hour. Never do this during the rest of the week because that time is to be used to work on recovery. Spending that time on companionship.
> 
> Do this the next three weeks, then after Sept 11 close the book on talking about the affair.


That will be tough but I will try. I can't imagine it not coming up in conversation. Even talking about other aspects of the A.

Me and EI will talk about this ASAP, cover it with our counselor too, I have a distinct feeling he will be all for it this idea.
He is all about letting the past go and moving forward.

I won't say it will be easy in the least.


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## B1

Morning all!!

Remember EI today, she is stressing big time over a possible job. We think she has a job with a doctors office, but she calls and he wont return the calls. However, someone who works there says he is going to hire her for her to call. EI is stressed over this. 

We have another surgery coming up with our special needs son, PT with other sons surgery he just had, nurses coming for our special needs son and so many things that keep EI busy during they day. We just are not sure how she can work and still get this stuff taken care of. She is STRESSED OUT. She was in tears last night over all this.


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## EI

I had the following typed up and then I saw B1's post before I pressed "submit reply." So, here is an update on all of B1's post. 

Good morning everyone! I hope you guys are having a great Monday. I feel like such a loser when I don't get online and respond to all of the messages on B1's thread. To say that I was busy Saturday and Sunday would be an understatement, but I think I spent just as much time being "anxious" as I did getting things done. It seems that no matter how old the kids get, they still need me to help them "manage" their lives. And, no, I am NOT one of those "controlling" mothers. I encourage/beg my kids to be more independent. I am constantly telling them that they need to make choices today that will help them become emotionally and financially independent in the future. Obviously, our special needs son is always going to "need" me on a daily basis, and our 19 y/o is recovering from his recent knee surgery, but I had to drag him out of bed this morning to get him to go to PT at 8:30 a.m. His girlfriend drove him. I couldn't take him because I had to be here at 9:00 a.m. for our s/n son's nurse to come by and get blood work done for his surgery next week. Now, 19 y/o just got home from PT and is telling me that they've added addt'l PT sessions because his knee is "popping" and the therapist is trying to reach the doctor. He was concerned about our son having "no restrictions" regarding crutches, driving, and going back to work. I know that we need for his knee to heal properly and for him to be finished with PT by January so that our son can go to the university that he has been planning to attend. Until now, he has been taking classes locally. This was his third surgery since March last year. Does this ever end?

I feel like our life (B1 and I) is so unlike others'. I know that it is foolish to think that everyone doesn't have their own crosses to bear, but at times, it seems like ours is heavier than many others we know. The one positive in all of this is that I have my husband back.... my best friend, my lover, my partner, my co-parent.... my everything. At this time last year, we were in the midst of one medical and legal crises after another and B1 and I could not have been more detached from one another. We had detached long before I made the horrible decision to go outside of our marriage looking for something, anything to help fill the void left by the overwhelming sense of loneliness, hopelessness and helplessness that I felt inside. But, obviously, it was the worst decision I have ever made in my life. I wish I could go back and make a different choice. But, I can't, so we go forward from here. Life is still just as hectic as it was then, but my outlook is so much more positive because I have B1 by my side. Just knowing that at the end of the day, no matter how crazy it has been, he and I get to lay on the couch together and cuddle and talk and laugh, and cry sometimes, too, and share our lives together makes it all seem bearable and worthwhile. It's a crazy life, but it's our life and we're sharing it together. I really do love him so much!

***********************************************
B1 - 19 y/o has been to PT and s/n son's nurse has been here. Nurse did labs so that is one less thing that I have to do before his upcoming surgery.... yeah! I have, actually, heard from Dr. H. this morning and his office manager. I'll call you in a bit! I love you! <3


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## EI

B1..... thank you for loving me! Thank you for being with me, emotionally and physically, thank you for being my husband, best friend, lover, partner, co-parent, everything. Thank you for choosing to love me when I know that it causes you so much pain alongside of the happiness that we are now experiencing because we are back to being "us" but even better than before. Thank you for choosing to take this journey of reconciliation with me when I know that it may have been less painful for you to go forward without me.

Thank you for loving me the way that you do. I knew when we were only 17 that you were the one for me. I knew that you were different. I put you on a pedestal and I was right..... But life got really hard, we took on so much, maybe too much, but where would the lives of those that we sacrificed for be if we hadn't? 

I am sooooooo ecstatic that I get to spend the rest of my life being loved by you, cherished by you, and adored by you..... Wow, I must the luckiest woman in the world. I will spend the rest of my life loving you, cherishing you, adoring you and thanking you for opening your heart to me, once again! <3


----------



## Badblood

I would like to come here to apologize to anyone concerned. I have come to believe that each and every marital incident of infidelity is unique. When giving advice on an internet forum, we (myself included) tend to use examples and procedures, gleaned from outside sources; books , other websites, hearsay, etc. Incorporating them into our posts, until they take on the character of unwritten laws. An example is the idea that it takes 2-5 years to recover from cheating. This isn't carved in stone, nor is it even an accurate estimate. I would like to admit here and now that I have done this and was wrong in doing so. My opinion now is that we as posters should ask for information from the original posters, and keep asking, until we have a good handle on their UNIQUE situation, BEFORE offering advice. So.....sorry.


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## Harken Banks

BB, a big post. I'd rather you did not flagellate yourself. Advice and feedback sometimes on the fly, always in real time, and based in experience is what drives this place. In my view, your posts and perspective have been considered, concerned, and important. A serious realty check and counterbalance. This thread gets to the heart of CWI. It's the hardest thing.


----------



## EI

Wow, thank you, BB! As I have said on this open forum and to you, privately, I have a great deal of respect for you and I think that you are a man of integrity and honor. I *know* that you always mean well and desire the best possible outcome for others. I have always been impressed with your belief that everyone should strive to work on self-improvement whether they choose to D or R.

You were one of the TAM members who have followed our story since the beginning. You have infuriated me, hurt my feelings and made me cry, but you have also made me think, inspired me and encouraged me .... sometimes, all in the same day.  You've, also, been around to help us celebrate our small victories along the way. I can't imagine TAM without you. I'd like for you to continue being a part of our reconciliation story! 

Take care,
EI


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## Harken Banks

This tune from a local favorite came to mind: The Rustic Overtones: Hardest Way Possible LIVE @ WHSN's 2010 AS4MS - YouTube


----------



## EI

Harken Banks said:


> This tune from a local favorite came to mind: The Rustic Overtones: Hardest Way Possible LIVE @ WHSN's 2010 AS4MS - YouTube


Songwriters: GUTTER, DAVE/ROODS, JON/MC NABOE, TONY/ALBEE, SPENCER

Another elephant grey sky and it's cold outside.
I've been a phantom with no place to hide.
Is my fortune searching for the love inside?
Or am I tortured, scorching 'cause I'm burning alive
Inside
I am small, but light gets in through cracks in these walls.
When I see you, I glow.
I glow like no one else can know.
It's so hard. It's the hardest by far.
Hardest way possible.
It's the hardest. It's the hardest by far.
The hardest way possible.
Won't be soon, I can't promise you,
But I promise you for good
You won't be trampled underfoot.
It's the hardest way to give,
It's the hardest way to take,
It's the hardest way to live for Christ sake.
So hard, but God heal these scars.
Take bleeding hearts out of bars
That drown away the hours drown away the hours
Getting to the bottom of it fast.
Swimming damn near the bottom of the glass.
It's so hard. It's the hardest by far.
Hardest way possible.
It's the hardest. It's the hardest by far.
The hardest way possible.
You can't and you and you stop
When every rung of the ladder is farther to drop
What is at stake now? What is not?
And what is not.
It's so hard. It's the hardest by far.
Hardest way possible.
It's the hardest. It's the hardest by far.
The hardest way possible.
It's the hardest way possible.
It's so hard.


*HB, you and AllMessedUp are gonna get through this..... I know it.... I just know it.....*


----------



## B1

Empty Inside said:


> Wow, thank you, BB! As I have said on this open forum and to you, privately, I have a great deal of respect for you and I think that you are a man of integrity and honor. I *know* that you always mean well and desire the best possible outcome for others. I have always been impressed with your belief that everyone should strive to work on self-improvement whether they choose to D or R.
> 
> You were one of the TAM members who have followed our story since the beginning. You have infuriated me, hurt my feelings and made me cry, but you have also made me think, inspired me and encouraged me .... sometimes, all in the same day.  You've, also, been around to help us celebrate our small victories along the way. I can't imagine TAM without you. I'd like for you to continue being a part of our reconciliation story!
> 
> Take care,
> EI


I couldn't have said it better myself BB. 
Agree with it all..Well, except the crying part


----------



## Badblood

Harken Banks said:


> BB, a big post. I'd rather you did not flagellate yourself. Advice and feedback sometimes on the fly, always in real time, and based in experience is what drives this place. In my view, your posts and perspective have been considered, concerned, and important. A serious realty check and counterbalance. This thread gets to the heart of CWI. It's the hardest thing.


 Thanks, Harken, but I'm actually not sure if my opinion would be any different, just that I will take greater care about how I arrive at that opinion.


----------



## B1

BB touched on something, and many have said this too that recovery takes 2-5 years. I realize that's not in stone.
I guess we need to define recovered, if thats ever really achieved. What happens in that 2-5 years(give or take) that makes you reconciled?
*What's our goal as two people who are reconciling?*

again the definitions of Reconciliation:

*to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations between (two or more people) 

*to settle (a quarrel or difference) 

*to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other 

*from Latin reconciliare to bring together again, from re- + conciliare to make friendly, conciliate ]


----------



## Badblood

betrayed1 said:


> I couldn't have said it better myself BB.
> Agree with it all..Well, except the crying part


Well, B1 and EI, I will probably not come back on this thread, any time soon, because there are still aspects of your R that I, quite frankly, find questionable. I also don't think tha any of my past advice would change much, but my METHODS at arriving at it, will certainly change. As in all forms of self-improvement and incidently also in R, identifying issues and the ability to do so is critical. My most pressing issues are frustration, painting posters with the same brush (not allowing for special or different considerations) and (it's hard to admit this) a certain intolerance of human frailty. I will do better in the future. I am my worst critic.


----------



## Badblood

BTW, these are not excuses, but areas where I need improvement. I don't like making excuses for myself. I hope to see you all on other threads, in the future.


----------



## Harken Banks

Strange Brew - separated - YouTube

Geeze, I'm sure glad we got rid of him. He was really starting to bug me.


----------



## calvin

I dont know,all R's seem to follow a similar script but there are just way too many variables,every one is different,people heal different,some people are stonger or more determind,its just different for all couples.
I know it is'nt easy,it does get better the deeper you get into ito it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

betrayed1 said:


> It's just the physical part haunts me some days and it hurts to think about what all they did. It just gets in my head sometimes and I can't get it out, then I feel like I have to talk about it.
> 
> My therapist says bring it to our sessions which is fine but I can't go as often as it bothers me.


Being a little further along the R Road, than you and EI, may I make a suggestion? It is like part of a step in the right direction, and I bet you will like it, EI will like it, and your therapist will go :smthumbup: "right on!" 

I suggest that you two make a mutual agreement to talk about the A for 30 min. a day or 45 min or 1 hour...whatever amount of time you want...and set a time to do it. So for example, negotiate and agree to 45 min. each day between 7:15pm and 8pm. Here's why:

a) It will be a step for B1 toward NOT talking about it whenever it pops into your head. This accomplishes a couple things, like gradually getting the Loyal Spouse to not think about it all day long! Also it accomplishes deciding if it's a thought "worth bringing up" or if it's just a thought that "passed through your mind" and isn't worth the time of day. 

b) It will be a step for EI toward NOT having had a pretty good day, doing the right things, etc. and having all that "good" shattered by stuff that is not going on now. In other words, it's like giving some of the past permission to STAY in the past, and having some of the present be what's being looked at and dealt with in the present. 

c) It will still give B1 the option to bring something up if it really is worthy of bringing up...and yet also give EI hope that one day soonish the sword above her head will be removed. 

d) It will help discipline both of you to actually look at and think about "your thoughts". I know it seems pretty redundant to think about your thoughts :rofl: but what I mean is that maybe you'll notice a pattern (I think about the A early in the morning or late at night if I'm tired) or notice what sets you off and you can change that (the clock makes me think about it every time--let's get a new clock!), etc. 

I think your therapist will go :smthumbup: "right on" because it is a partial step toward letting it go, in that the A can still be brought up but it's not "any time all day long" and it's not like it could turn into an unending interrogation either. It has shows hope that both people are "moving forward".


----------



## Affaircare

Wazza said:


> This strikes a chord with me. I've been thinking about it for a long time.
> 
> My wife is very non-confrontational...she handles the affair by burying it.
> 
> Recently we have been talking about it. *Every time our marriage gets to a new level I find it necessary to go back and revisit things to sort my head out*, and allow myself to feel a deeper emotional connection to her.


I'm sorry Wazza, I realize this means something important to you but I don't know what you mean when you say you have to revisit the affair "every time the marriage gets to a new level"? :scratchhead: Do you mean, every time you feel vulnerable or like you two have a revelation that brings the two of you closer? I don't get it. Also when you go back to revisit the affair, what do you do? Ask questions about it again?  



> She cannot understand why it is important to me. *She genuinely believes I bring the past up to hurt her, or to gain leverage in discussions.*


Well since I'm not there, I don't understand it either. I'm hoping that by answering my questions it will clear it up for me, but until then see the part I put in bold? She thinks you bring up the past to hurt her. Why would she think that? Do you? Now on the one hand, I understand she is the kind of spouse who wants to "pretend it didn't happen" and thus bringing it up EVER = hurting her. But have you ever used the past specifically to hurt her? Where does she get this idea from (if not from you)? Does she need to deal with that? Do you ever use the past to "win" the argument or as leverage? 

Here's why I ask. Given that everything was neutral, it's not too likely that she would just come up with "using the past to hurt her" or "using the past as leverage" so it seems probably that was done to her by someone...sometime. That may be where she got the idea it would be done again. Thus the solution would be to figure out where that idea came from and either face that person or deal with whatever happened, etc. And although you may not seem like the kind of person to do so, I don't live with you. Maybe you DO use the past to hurt her or use it as leverage, in which case, you need to consider that possibility and figure out what's healthy and what's not. 

[quote[Those of you who were the wayward spouse, I would love your perspective on how we can have these discussions without me causing my wife undue pain. And knowing that wayward spouses sometimes cop harsh treatment around here, if you have something you want to say but not publicly, I am ok with PMs and will keep anything you say between us. But on the board is better if you are comfortable, as I can't be the only BS who needs this information.[/QUOTE]

I'm all about talking out here for the benefit of everyone to see, plus I'm an open book  So I have a weird question for you--have you ever asked your wife how the two of you could have discussions about the affair every now and then without causing her pain? I mean, I realize that she MAY think something like: "Sure of course: never bring it up ever!"  But if you explained to her like you explained to us (that every now and then when the marriage hits a new level, you want to sort it all out in light of the new stuff) maybe she'd have a suggestion or request about how to do it. 

If she doesn't have a suggestion and if she seems to be a complete avoider, I think I'd recommend the W-T-F-S method I always tell people about: 

W= When you...and you would identify a behavior but not blame
T= I Think...and you share your thoughts
F=I Feel...and you share your feelings
S=So I'd like to request...and you ask right out loud for what you'd like or what would "work for you"

For the W it is important to identify what it is that starts things off without being blaming. So for example, "When our marriage hits a new level of emotional closeness" would work..."When you hand me the knife with the blade toward my hand" would work..."When you act like a selfish b!tch..." would not work. 

For the T and F you share your thoughts and feelings using "I" statements and share them both because some folks are thinkers and some are feelers..and this way you are covering all bases. So for example, "I think 'Hey that knife could cut me!" and I feel afraid and a little mad that you'd risk hurting me" would work..."I think you are so self-centered you don't care and I feel like you hate my guts" would not. 

And for the S... well lots of people think for some reason that their spouse should "know them by now" or "s/he can tell what I want" but man! None of us can read minds. If you want something, just ask if they'd be willing to do it and if not, find out what they would be willing to do. Be fairly precise. Thus, "So would you mind handing me the knife with the handle toward me?" would work..."So be more loving" would not because everyone's idea of being loving is so different! 

And by the way, I do get it that I may entirely be missing the gist of this post, and if I am, please help me see what you mean!


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## CantSitStill

45 min every day? We haven't talked about the A at all today..hmm that seems like alot to me...yet there are days where it sticks in Calvin's brain all day or for days in a row. I've been so busy working or thinking about work lately. I feel old. Why is my back so sore? I used to work more hours than this in my twenties. I'm 41, what's wrong with me? I guess I'll get used to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

CantSitStill said:


> 45 min every day? We haven't talked about the A at all today..hmm that seems like alot to me...yet there are days where it sticks in Calvin's brain all day or for days in a row. I've been so busy working or thinking about work lately. I feel old. Why is my back so sore? I used to work more hours than this in my twenties. I'm 41, what's wrong with me? I guess I'll get used to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well maybe you two would do better with 30 min. a day--say every day from 5:30-6:00pm. During those 30 min. you could always say "Hey I don't really have anything to talk about. You cool?" Likewise at the end of the 30 min. if it seemed productive and you wanted to continue you could both agree "Hey this seems like a productive talk and I'd like to continue. Do you agree?" 

For example what if you were DYING to go on and on about something that was bothering you about the affair, and in the agreement he listened for the 30 minutes but then was about worn out with affair-talk (like he had heard all he could without going nuts or ballistic...maybe he's not feeling good that day). At the end of the 30 min. he could say "I'm really sorry but for right now I've had as much as I can take. Could we agree to continue...blahblahblah?" and make a suggestion. 

Make sense? I mean it is whatever you two agree to...and yet if you discipline yourself for it to be just one time a day for a set amount of time, it would be a part of a step to letting it go.


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## CantSitStill

Anyway, back to the point. If and whenever Calvin is triggering he needs me. If he holds it in and we don't talk then it does not help. We don't schedule when that happens, we deal with it as it comes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Ok well we must talk daily yes, about anything, whatever it is. It brings us closer 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Affaircare said:


> Being a little further along the R Road, than you and EI, may I make a suggestion? It is like part of a step in the right direction, and I bet you will like it, EI will like it, and your therapist will go :smthumbup: "right on!"
> 
> I suggest that you two make a mutual agreement to talk about the A for 30 min. a day or 45 min or 1 hour...whatever amount of time you want...and set a time to do it. So for example, negotiate and agree to 45 min. each day between 7:15pm and 8pm. Here's why:
> 
> a) It will be a step for B1 toward NOT talking about it whenever it pops into your head. This accomplishes a couple things, like gradually getting the Loyal Spouse to not think about it all day long! Also it accomplishes deciding if it's a thought "worth bringing up" or if it's just a thought that "passed through your mind" and isn't worth the time of day.
> 
> b) It will be a step for EI toward NOT having had a pretty good day, doing the right things, etc. and having all that "good" shattered by stuff that is not going on now. In other words, it's like giving some of the past permission to STAY in the past, and having some of the present be what's being looked at and dealt with in the present.
> 
> c) It will still give B1 the option to bring something up if it really is worthy of bringing up...and yet also give EI hope that one day soonish the sword above her head will be removed.
> 
> d) It will help discipline both of you to actually look at and think about "your thoughts". I know it seems pretty redundant to think about your thoughts :rofl: but what I mean is that maybe you'll notice a pattern (I think about the A early in the morning or late at night if I'm tired) or notice what sets you off and you can change that (the clock makes me think about it every time--let's get a new clock!), etc.
> 
> I think your therapist will go :smthumbup: "right on" because it is a partial step toward letting it go, in that the A can still be brought up but it's not "any time all day long" and it's not like it could turn into an unending interrogation either. It has shows hope that both people are "moving forward".


So much of this is great advice thank you...

I still don't know about the setting a time thing, I know it's popular but for me I need her when I need her. 

I am learning to cope better when certain thoughts pop in my head, I am learning to let certain ones go. 

We talked today for 3.5 hours not just about the A, but we did cover a couple of things that were still bothering me. I didn't want to get into it but EI insisted I let it out and I did, but in a very calm and just a matter of fact manner. It mostly pertained to sex and it ended up really helping me this time. My imagination was wrong for once. 

EI is struggling now though with what she did, the pain she caused me and the kids, she is really hurting over many things though. She has been very sad today, in tears many times throughout our talks this evening. Today though has been stressful on her with the whole job thing and all these surgeries and everything going on. 

I do agree that EI needs this sword removed from over her head. I think that would help her a lot. I am working hard on doing just that.

I love her so incredibly much, she is my world. Yes, she hurt me, but I hurt her too. Driving home today I was thinking, this was pre-A, how awful she had to feel when she came prancing out in her new lingerie one day, and I wouldn't even look at her. She was so happy, she was trying so hard to get me to notice her and I wouldn't even look at her, I completely ignored her that day. She went back into the bathroom, cried, took it off and walked out of the bedroom, what an A$$ I was. I asked her recently what she did with it and she said she returned it soon after that. I'm so Sorry EI!


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## EI

betrayed1 said:


> So much of this is great advice thank you...
> 
> I still don't know about the setting a time thing, I know it's popular but for me I need her when I need her.


I do hope that there will eventually be a day when we don't _need_ to talk about "it" or when you realize that you _forgot_ about for "it" for a day, and then two days, then three days, and so on and so on......... but, until that time comes, I will *ALWAYS* be here, available, with my heart open to help you heal and to comfort you in any way that I can, anytime you need me. I only wish for that day to come, because then I will know that you have truly begun to heal from the pain that I've caused you.



betrayed1 said:


> EI is struggling now though with what she did, the pain she caused me and the kids, she is really hurting over many things though. She has been very sad today, in tears many times throughout our talks this evening. Today though has been stressful on her with the whole job thing and all these surgeries and everything going on.


Yes, I am hurting over the pain that I have caused you and our children. It's almost unbearable at times. And, yes, as always, our life is "big" and our responsibilities are "big" and my anxiety level is at an all time high. But, having you to hold me, comfort me, and to reassure me that we will face and conquer the world together is the one thing, the only thing, that gets me through. It's been years since I've watched the clock to see how much longer it is until you get home from work. Now, I find myself counting the hours all day long. I love that moment that I hear the garage door open and I know that you're about to walk around the corner in the kitchen. Makes me  thinking about it. I can't wait to stand up (on the kitchen chair) so that you can wrap your arms around me. *** B1 is very tall and EI is very short! LOL



betrayed1 said:


> I love her so incredibly much, she is my world.


And, I love you, too! 



betrayed1 said:


> .....she came prancing out in her new lingerie one day, and I wouldn't even look at her. She was so happy, she was trying so hard to get me to notice her and I wouldn't even look at her, I completely ignored her that day.


I know..... that wasn't a very happy time for either of us... I choose not to dwell on that part of our past, any longer. I like to think about how you look at me now! I loooooooove the way you see me through your _"Testosterone Colored Glasses!"_ 



betrayed1 said:


> I'm so Sorry EI!


I know, B1...... I'm sorry, too......... :'(


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## CantSitStill

I am the same way Empty, tearful talks. For a while I cried daily. I still have my cries. It's the pain we feel in our spouse. It's the shame we feel for what we've done and yes I always want to be there when he needs me no no matter what. Sounds like you two are alot like Calvin and me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

B1 and I had a long talk today. Together, we decided that this is not the right time for me to go back to work. Just for September, alone, there is a minimum of 6 days that I would have to ask off. And, I do mean a minimum. It isn't even September, yet, and I have already had to change over the calendar because there was so much that needed to go on it. I have kept a 2' x 3' dry erase marker board in the kitchen hallway for about 15 years that has a different color marker for each of us. With one son recovering from surgery and another about to have surgery, either this week or next, I don't think my working right now is doable. 

Going back now would, also, mean that we would not be able to have regular counseling sessions any longer because our counselor doesn't take appts. after 4:00 p.m. B1 has plenty of time that he can take off from work because he has been there for years and he can catch up on his hours by working from home on evenings and weekends, if needed. I don't see how it is realistic to try to start a brand new job when I have a very full-time job right here. I do hope to be able to go back someday.... hopefully, some day in the not too distant future. It would certainly help up financially and I think that it would be good for me, too. Just not right now.

I'm so glad that B1 and I, both, share the same values when it comes to our children.


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## joe kidd

I'll tell you, the last 6 mos would be a test for any marriage let alone one in R. We have been through a major surgery, death in the family, a financial crisis and yesterday a sewer backup of biblical proportions. Ok God....I get it . We are going to make it. You can stop now. LOL


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## jh52

joe kidd said:


> I'll tell you, the last 6 mos would be a test for any marriage let alone one in R. We have been through a major surgery, death in the family, a financial crisis and yesterday a sewer backup of biblical proportions. Ok God....I get it . We are going to make it. You can stop now. LOL


Nice words to read Joe. One hour, one day at a time.


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> B1 and I had a long talk today. Together, we decided that this is not the right time for me to go back to work. Just for September, alone, there is a minimum of 6 days that I would have to ask off. And, I do mean a minimum. It isn't even September, yet, and I have already had to change over the calendar because there was so much that needed to go on it. I have kept a 2' x 3' dry erase marker board in the kitchen hallway for about 15 years that has a different color marker for each of us. With one son recovering from surgery and another about to have surgery, either this week or next, I don't think my working right now is doable.
> 
> Going back now would, also, mean that we would not be able to have regular counseling sessions any longer because our counselor doesn't take appts. after 4:00 p.m. B1 has plenty of time that he can take off from work because he has been there for years and he can catch up on his hours by working from home on evenings and weekends, if needed. I don't see how it is realistic to try to start a brand new job when I have a very full-time job right here. I do hope to be able to go back someday.... hopefully, some day in the not too distant future. It would certainly help up financially and I think that it would be good for me, too. Just not right now.
> 
> I'm so glad that B1 and I, both, share the same values when it comes to our children.


OH THANK GOD. 

I was reading how you wanted to go back to work and kept thinking to myself -- this is NOT good at the moment. EI has her plate more than full -- it is overflowing and now she wants to go back to work. I understand the financial benefit -- and getting out and working in a doctors office -- I think it is absolutely the right call for the present time.


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## calvin

jh52 said:


> OH THANK GOD.
> 
> I was reading how you wanted to go back to work and kept thinking to myself -- this is NOT good at the moment. EI has her plate more than full -- it is overflowing and now she wants to go back to work. I understand the financial benefit -- and getting out and working in a doctors office -- I think it is absolutely the right call for the present time.


Morning Empty,B1.
I agree jh,having CSS go to to work a few months ago would have been nice but just too early and Empty has a lot more on her hands than CSs did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

joe kidd said:


> I'll tell you, the last 6 mos would be a test for any marriage let alone one in R. We have been through a major surgery, death in the family, a financial crisis and yesterday a sewer backup of biblical proportions. Ok God....I get it . *We are going to make it. You can stop now. LOL*


I can relate to dealing with a family member having surgery, a death in the family, a financial crises.... it seems that we are constantly dealing with these situations in a revolving door type of fashion. I'm so sorry you're going through this and you're right, add that to R and you just want to throw your hands in the air and say "I surrender." 

I did have to chuckle when you mentioned the sewer backup of biblical proportions. Several years ago when life was very hectic, but our marriage hadn't, yet, buckled under the strain, we had an infestation of ants. That was the first time that I ever really considered divorce. I was yelling at B1 to "get up and do something about those damn ants" and he was, basically, saying "what the Hell do you want me to do about them right now?" I was having a melt down and B1 (who is completely non-violent) pulled the couch out from the wall and slammed it back into the wall in frustration. First I cried, then I just cracked up laughing. The ants were nothing compared to the fruit flies that were to come a few years later. This spring when we had our, now what has become our annual ant infestation, I was taking a bath and our daughter walked in and said, "Mom, there are about 1,000 ants crawling all over the side of the bathtub," I said, "Really, I didn't notice?" Ants..... pshhh.... whatever, bring 'em on! What doesn't kill ya will only make you stronger, right?


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## calvin

Day to day life can be a challenge sometimes as it is,doing it while you and your spouse are both in R can be hell sometimes.
Thank God I have CSS to lean on sometimes but I cant quite get over the irony 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Empty Inside said:


> I can relate to dealing with a family member having surgery, a death in the family, a financial crises.... it seems that we are constantly dealing with these situations in a revolving door type of fashion. I'm so sorry you're going through this and you're right, add that to R and you just want to throw your hands in the air and say "I surrender."
> 
> I did have to chuckle when you mentioned the sewer backup of biblical proportions. Several years ago when life was very hectic, but our marriage hadn't, yet, buckled under the strain, we had an infestation of ants. That was the first time that I ever really considered divorce. I was yelling at B1 to "get up and do something about those damn ants" and he was, basically, saying "what the Hell do you want me to do about them right now?" I was having a melt down and B1 (who is completely non-violent) pulled the couch out from the wall and slammed it back into the wall in frustration. First I cried, then I just cracked up laughing. The ants were nothing compared to the fruit flies that were to come a few years later. This spring when we had our, now what has become our annual ant infestation, I was taking a bath and our daughter walked in and said, "Mom, there are about 1,000 ants crawling all over the side of the bathtub," I said, "Really, I didn't notice?" Ants..... pshhh.... whatever, bring 'em on! What doesn't kill ya will only make you stronger, right?


You have not seen those ants in a while now have you EI 
A few gallons of ant spray around the outside of the house
works wonders. Come to think of it, that may be why all the bushes are dying too


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## B1

jh52 said:


> OH THANK GOD.
> 
> I was reading how you wanted to go back to work and kept thinking to myself -- this is NOT good at the moment. EI has her plate more than full -- it is overflowing and now she wants to go back to work. I understand the financial benefit -- and getting out and working in a doctors office -- I think it is absolutely the right call for the present time.


I agree 100%. Not a good time for EI to go back to work. Her plate is so full it's not funny.


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## B1

joe kidd said:


> I'll tell you, the last 6 mos would be a test for any marriage let alone one in R. We have been through a major surgery, death in the family, a financial crisis and yesterday a sewer backup of biblical proportions. Ok God....I get it . We are going to make it. You can stop now. LOL


So sorry jk, sounds like us. It's always something for everyone I believe, but sometimes, for some of us, it just seems like it's always something and then some 

Yes, you are going to make it, and you know what, so are we!


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## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> You have not seen those ants in a while now have you EI
> A few gallons of ant spray around the outside of the house
> works wonders. Come to think of it, that may be why all the bushes are dying too


B1 -- love your sense of humor !!!!:smthumbup::rofl::rofl:


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## EI

jh52 said:


> OH THANK GOD.
> 
> I was reading how you wanted to go back to work and kept thinking to myself -- this is NOT good at the moment.





calvin said:


> Morning Empty,B1.
> I agree jh,having CSS go to to work a few months ago would have been nice but just too early and Empty has a lot more on her hands than CSs did.


I first started thinking about going back to work about two years ago. It was pre-A, I knew I was miserable in the marriage and B1 wasn't listening to me, at the time, about things needing to change. I knew that I would have to be able to support myself if B1 and I were to divorce. I had a long-term goal to help p/o any debt we had acquired together, then save up so that I would be able to divorce B1 after our youngest graduated h.s. in 2013. Each time a potential job opportunity would open up, we would have another crises that prevented me from taking it and the money problems escalated. I started feeling trapped like there was no way out.... ever. I wasn't able to take a job, our debt was piling up and I wasn't getting any younger. I got impatient..... felt that I couldn't bear one more day of endless misery and I took matters into my own hands. Decided to "create" my own happiness. You all know the story. It didn't work out very well.... it hurt virtually everyone that I love most in this world.

I was consumed with guilt thinking about working as a means of future escape. I knew that my working would be a chance to improve the financial situation for our family as a whole, if we stayed married, but not if we were to divorce. So, like I said, I had a long term plan. I could never have moved out of the home where my children live. It's one thing for children to grow up and move out. It's seems entirely different for Mom to move out.... even if the "kids" are young adults who are technically old enough to move out on their own. Of course, I couldn't expect B1 to move out of his own home and continue to support me/us. It was a very difficult time that B1 and I now refer to as "swimming in a cesspool of misery."

A few weeks before D-Day, in May, a potential job opportunity came to me and I was still looking for an eventual way out. After D-day, I felt that I owed it to our family to start contributing financially since we have been so strapped the last couple of years. Even with great insurance we have had a tremendous amount of medical and legal bills (another story... another day.) It has caused us to take thousands out of B1's 401(k) and thousands in equity out of our house. I regret that we ever took any money out of his 401(k) or our home equity.

Even as I have typed this, I just received a call from the office mgr. for the doctor. The same doctor that has been saying, since May, that he was going to hire me, then doesn't call me and doesn't answers my calls/texts. When I do reach him, he says he is hiring me and to call back later. Finally, he wanted me to start work. So, I texted him yesterday, said I would not be taking the position. Now, they want me, and took the time to listen to my concerns about needing time off due to our son's upcoming surgery. Mgr. said that I could train on a flexible schedule and take time off as needed, even work part-time if I wanted to. What do you guys think? If they are flexible, we could use the money. If they turn out not to be flexible then I quit. What do I have to lose? Oh geeeez............ my brain hurts.


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> You have not seen those ants in a while now have you EI
> A few gallons of ant spray around the outside of the house
> works wonders. Come to think of it, that may be why all the bushes are dying too


No, Baby, I just thought about it yesterday.... not a single ant in weeks??? Does this mean that you could have done something about them years ago??  Grrrrr....... LOL


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> I first started thinking about going back to work about two years ago. It was pre-A, I knew I was miserable in the marriage and B1 wasn't listening to me, at the time, about things needing to change. I knew that I would have to be able to support myself if B1 and I were to divorce. I had a long-term goal to help p/o any debt we had acquired together, then save up so that I would be able to divorce B1 after our youngest graduated h.s. in 2013. Each time a potential job opportunity would open up, we would have another crises that prevented me from taking it and the money problems escalated. I started feeling trapped like there was no way out.... ever. I wasn't able to take a job, our debt was piling up and I wasn't getting any younger. I got impatient..... felt that I couldn't bear one more day of endless misery and I took matters into my own hands. Decided to "create" my own happiness. You all know the story. It didn't work out very well.... it hurt virtually everyone that I love most in this world.
> 
> I was consumed with guilt thinking about working as a means of future escape. I knew that my working would be a chance to improve the financial situation for our family as a whole, if we stayed married, but not if we were to divorce. So, like I said, I had a long term plan. I could never have moved out of the home where my children live. It's one thing for children to grow up and move out. It's seems entirely different for Mom to move out.... even if the "kids" are young adults who are technically old enough to move out on their own. Of course, I couldn't expect B1 to move out of his own home and continue to support me/us. It was a very difficult time that B1 and I now refer to as "swimming in a cesspool of misery."
> 
> A few weeks before D-Day, in May, a potential job opportunity came to me and I was still looking for an eventual way out. After D-day, I felt that I owed it to our family to start contributing financially since we have been so strapped the last couple of years. Even with great insurance we have had a tremendous amount of medical and legal bills (another story... another day.) It has caused us to take thousands out of B1's 401(k) and thousands in equity out of our house. I regret that we ever took any money out of his 401(k) or our home equity.
> 
> Even as I have typed this, I just received a call from the office mgr. for the doctor. The same doctor that has been saying, since May, that he was going to hire me, then doesn't call me and doesn't answers my calls/texts. When I do reach him, he says he is hiring me and to call back later. Finally, he wanted me to start work. So, I texted him yesterday, said I would not be taking the position. Now, they want me, and took the time to listen to my concerns about needing time off due to our son's upcoming surgery. Mgr. said that I could train on a flexible schedule and take time off as needed, even work part-time if I wanted to. What do you guys think? If they are flexible, we could use the money. If they turn out not to be flexible then I quit. What do I have to lose? Oh geeeez............ my brain hurts.


EI -- it's not what we think -- it's what you and B1 think. Your plate is very full -- with everthing going on in your life with the kids -- but to me the most impotant thing you have going on is starting your new marriage with B1. 

Ask yourself -- how much money will I really be bringing home working part time ?? Is your time worth the money -- or is your time better spent now with your family and B1.

Not sure what the job entails -- but once you were trained -- could you work from home ?? Another possible scenario that you, B1 and your boss would be okay with.

Whatever you decide === think of these things first:
1) EI
2) B1
3) Your marriage
4) Your family

Take care.


----------



## joe kidd

Empty Inside said:


> I can relate to dealing with a family member having surgery, a death in the family, a financial crises.... it seems that we are constantly dealing with these situations in a revolving door type of fashion. I'm so sorry you're going through this and you're right, add that to R and you just want to throw your hands in the air and say "I surrender."
> 
> I did have to chuckle when you mentioned the sewer backup of biblical proportions. Several years ago when life was very hectic, but our marriage hadn't, yet, buckled under the strain, we had an infestation of ants. That was the first time that I ever really considered divorce. I was yelling at B1 to "get up and do something about those damn ants" and he was, basically, saying "what the Hell do you want me to do about them right now?" I was having a melt down and B1 (who is completely non-violent) pulled the couch out from the wall and slammed it back into the wall in frustration. First I cried, then I just cracked up laughing. The ants were nothing compared to the fruit flies that were to come a few years later. This spring when we had our, now what has become our annual ant infestation, I was taking a bath and our daughter walked in and said, "Mom, there are about 1,000 ants crawling all over the side of the bathtub," I said, "Really, I didn't notice?" Ants..... pshhh.... whatever, bring 'em on! What doesn't kill ya will only make you stronger, right?


LOL. It was awful. The city main clogged and "water" was coming up through the downstairs shower drain filling the lower level. Add a 3 yr old trying to play in it while I'm doing my best to suck it up. I sucked crap for 5 hrs. Cleaned it up the best I could and herded the family to a hotel. Pidge and I were just looking at each other saying " we've been through worse, we've been through worse". In the past my temper would have got the best of me but we held it together pretty well. Don't know how well I'll hold it if the insurance adjuster is a ****. LOL


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> LOL. It was awful. The city main clogged and "water" was coming up through the downstairs shower drain filling the lower level. Add a 3 yr old trying to play in it while I'm doing my best to suck it up. I sucked crap for 5 hrs. Cleaned it up the best I could and herded the family to a hotel. Pidge and I were just looking at each other saying " we've been through worse, we've been through worse". In the past my temper would have got the best of me but we held it together pretty well. Don't know how well I'll hold it if the insurance adjuster is a ****. LOL


I am so sorry. Fifteen years ago, we had lived here less than a year. This was a brand new house we had just built. There were 9 of us; Mom, Dad, B1, myself and 5 children. God chose to flood the earth.... really just our subdivision, mostly. B1 and I were at the grocery and my parents called to say that water was backing up in the basement bathtub.... "come home quick." Whatever..... before the flood was done with us, our basement was completely flooded, and I had watched our fence and swing set in the backyard disappear, you could have taken a boat out of the back yard. There was a rail road tie floating from our yard to the neighbor's yard behind us. Normally, there were two fences and a concrete ditch separating us from our neighbors. 

I feel your pain and all I can say is that "I'm so sorry." Geeeez.......... it never ends, does it?

I hope things get better for you all.... very, very soon. Acabado always says, "Hang tough!" Sometimes, that's all you can do.

P.S. Consider it a bonus that you had the money to pay for a hotel. There have been times when we were so tight that we couldn't afford a hotel.... true story.... blaaaaaaah.....


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> EI -- it's not what we think -- it's what you and B1 think. Your plate is very full -- with everthing going on in your life with the kids -- but to me the most impotant thing you have going on is starting your new marriage with B1.
> 
> Ask yourself -- how much money will I really be bringing home working part time ?? Is your time worth the money -- or is your time better spent now with your family and B1.
> 
> Not sure what the job entails -- but once you were trained -- could you work from home ?? Another possible scenario that you, B1 and your boss would be okay with.
> 
> Whatever you decide === think of these things first:
> 1) EI
> 2) B1
> 3) Your marriage
> 4) Your family
> 
> Take care.


Darn it............... this is killing me... gotta talk to B1. I love having him by my side to help make these important decisions and I love that I am making these decisions for the good of our family and not for.............. other reasons. 

Now: Must get on task and stay on task.... I have things to get done...... laundry is caught up... can't play on PC anymore! _Gotta run..................._


----------



## jh52

"I love that I am making these decisions for the good of our family and not for.............. other reasons."

All of your TAM friends are also happy that you are making these decisions for all the right reasons now !!


----------



## B1

Words from the WS can help you heal...

An email EI sent me yesteday really helped me. She knew I was looking for something but even I didn't know what it was. I was looking for some magic words to help me heal, well there are no magic words but this email she sent was darn close. It really helped me. I pasted most of it below.

------------------------------
"I get so scared that you might not ever recover from all of this hurt that I have created. I get scared to admit, (even to myself.... especially to myself) that I was violated.
First, because I allowed it... even pursued it, second because I'm
afraid that I will freak out. I was afraid to "go there," so I just tried
to avoid thinking about it. I had to process and accept that what I
did, I can't undo, but that it was horribly wrong under any
circumstances, and that, yes, I willingly violated my own body by
allowing another man to ................. something that should have
remained sacred to only you and me. From this day forward it will be."
------------------------------

I knew it was a violation to me and our marriage, but I didn't know what she really thought about what the A meant to hear self, her own body, until now. This isn't for others to pick apart and go after EI, it's just to maybe help other WS to know that these words really helped me, the BS. 

EI has told me so many times and in so many ways how wrong it was, but these words just hit home to me, this email just really helped me understand how sincere she is in her sorrow, and probably why she has been a little down lately.

Yesterday was a really good day because of this and something someone else sent me on this forum about dealing with the physical aspect of the A. Pasted below is a little piece from an article they sent me:

"If the affair is over, then allow it to be over. By continuing to think like this, you are, in a way, keeping it alive. And you’re continuing to draw EI’s attention to it, which is exactly what you don’t want. One of the best ways to truly move on is to focus on your own marriage and your own sex life – not on someone else’s. "




Me and EI had a great day yesterday, we laughed, joked, teased, cuddeled and just enjoyed each other. It was nice. We talked very little about the A.

I am learning, among other things, that I need to get the xOM out of my marriage, out of our conversations and out of our lives. I must stop comparing and start living OUR life together.


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> I am learning, among other things, that I need to get the xOM out of my marriage, out of our conversations and out of our lives. I must stop comparing and start living OUR life together.


Very true. I hope the day comes when I reach that point. He's becoming a footnote now instead of center stage in my head.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Words from the WS can help you heal...
> 
> An email EI sent me yesteday really helped me. She knew I was looking for something but even I didn't know what it was. I was looking for some magic words to help me heal, well there are no magic words but this email she sent was darn close. It really helped me. I pasted most of it below.
> 
> ------------------------------
> "I get so scared that you might not ever recover from all of this hurt that I have created. I get scared to admit, (even to myself.... especially to myself) that I was violated.
> First, because I allowed it... even pursued it, second because I'm
> afraid that I will freak out. I was afraid to "go there," so I just tried
> to avoid thinking about it. I had to process and accept that what I
> did, I can't undo, but that it was horribly wrong under any
> circumstances, and that, yes, I willingly violated my own body by
> allowing another man to ................. something that should have
> remained sacred to only you and me. From this day forward it will be."
> ------------------------------
> 
> I knew it was a violation to me and our marriage, but I didn't know what she really thought about what the A meant to hear self, her own body, until now. This isn't for others to pick apart and go after EI, it's just to maybe help other WS to know that these words really helped me, the BS.
> 
> EI has told me so many times and in so many ways how wrong it was, but these words just hit home to me, this email just really helped me understand how sincere she is in her sorrow, and probably why she has been a little down lately.
> 
> Yesterday was a really good day because of this and something someone else sent me on this forum about dealing with the physical aspect of the A. Pasted below is a little piece from an article they sent me:
> 
> "If the affair is over, then allow it to be over. By continuing to think like this, you are, in a way, keeping it alive. And you’re continuing to draw EI’s attention to it, which is exactly what you don’t want. One of the best ways to truly move on is to focus on your own marriage and your own sex life – not on someone else’s. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me and EI had a great day yesterday, we laughed, joked, teased, cuddeled and just enjoyed each other. It was nice. We talked very little about the A.
> 
> I am learning, among other things, that I need to get the xOM out of my marriage, out of our conversations and out of our lives. I must stop comparing and start living OUR life together.


:iagree::iagree::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## jh52

joe kidd said:


> Very true. I hope the day comes when I reach that point. He's becoming a footnote now instead of center stage in my head.


It will Joe --

one hour at a time

one day at a time.


----------



## Regret214

Dig is ready to walk. I've trickle truthed him too much. Someone help.


----------



## Regret214

And what's really horrible is that TAM has been his ONLY outlet and he can't even come back here til 9/10. He's so desperate. He's so scared. I am so sorry.


----------



## MattMatt

Regret214 said:


> Dig is ready to walk. I've trickle truthed him too much. Someone help.


Dig, don't walk, mate.

Help her to tell you what you need and want to know.

We are here for both of you.


----------



## Regret214

I've told him so many lies, Matt that he can't take it. I've hidden, I've not wanted to tell him. And he's banned. All because someone said he was STALKING him. He threatened to kill the xOM and himself. This is so horrible that we're living.


----------



## jh52

Dig -- don't give up. Give it more time till you can get back on TAM. We are here for you. I haven't spoken to you, but have talked alot recently with a few others on this thread. 

Just take it an hour at a time, day at a time.

Sending you both my prayers and good positive thoughts.


----------



## CantSitStill

Dig, Calvin has been there...please please don't give up, do you think divorce will make it all better?? You two came this far, please re-think. Stay calm. You can and will feel better. I promise it does get better. Calvin out of the blue told me he wanted a seperation about a month ago. She is with you now, you won her heart back and you know you will regret leaving her. Hang in there, take a walk for a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Dig needs to take a walk, get some energy out, excersize or something to get that negative energy out of his system.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

#1--Regret if you need to talk to someone via PM, I'm here.

#2--If Dig needs to talk to someone I am POSITIVE he could either PM some of the fine folks here (like calvin or B1) and if he can't due to the ban, then folks, please state right here if you'd be willing to give your email to Dig so he has an outlet. Don't have to post your email here...just that you're willing


----------



## jh52

Regret214 said:


> I've told him so many lies, Matt that he can't take it. I've hidden, I've not wanted to tell him. And he's banned. All because someone said he was STALKING him. He threatened to kill the xOM and himself. This is so horrible that we're living.


Regret -- you have to stop the TT. It's not fair to Dig as he is trying to cope with all this -- thinks he has it all -- then you drop another bomb on him.

My suggestion would be when he can get back on TAM -- for you both to sit down and confess/tell/no TT any information -- tell it all so he gets to hear it for the final time. Dig will be able to get support from TAM -- and hopefully process it with the help.

I would say tell him earlier -- but sounds like he needs support -- which could lead to a not so happy ending.


----------



## MattMatt

Regret214 said:


> I've told him so many lies, Matt that he can't take it. I've hidden, I've not wanted to tell him. And he's banned. All because someone said he was STALKING him. He threatened to kill the xOM and himself. This is so horrible that we're living.


Why did you lie? Because you thought you were protecting him?

You could try to do a question and answer session. Get him to write down only the questions he needs answering. Have him give this to you.

You could answer it in writing or verbally. But answer them truthfully.

That way Dig only gets the answers he needs and wants, and doesn't get a TMI overload.


----------



## jh52

Regret214 said:


> I've told him so many lies, Matt that he can't take it. I've hidden, I've not wanted to tell him. And he's banned. All because someone said he was STALKING him. He threatened to kill the xOM and himself. This is so horrible that we're living.


Regret talk with EI and CSS and get their thoughts and what they did with B1 and Calvin. Every situation is different -- but these two ladies have been to hell and back --- and may be able to help you come up with a plan.

Hang in Regret !!


----------



## Harken Banks

Regret, I can't tell you how sad I am, we are, to hear that. Dig is a rock and an inspiration. Hard stuff.


----------



## jh52

MattMatt said:


> Why did you lie? Because you thought you were protecting him?
> 
> You could try to do a question and answer session. Get him to write down only the questions he needs answering. Have him give this to you.
> 
> You could answer it in writing or verbally. But answer them truthfully.
> 
> That way Dig only gets the answers he needs and wants, and doesn't get a TMI overload.


MM -- I would agree to talk to Dig -- Dig should lead the situation of how he wants this handled. Maybe he wants only certain questions, maybe he would like a time line with everything that Regret can remember, maybe some other way.

Either way Dig and Regret have to work on this together.


----------



## calvin

Dig,I've been and still am in your shoes,dont do anything rash or anything you'll regret.
I still want to beat the hell out of the OM,I still struggle sometimes to stay with CSS but I have to have patience and take it hour by hour like jh said.
Your not thinking clearly right now brother
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin also wants to kill the OM and I am afraid he may if he ever sees him, he is still struggling with all of this. Dig needs to make up his mind whether he wants in this marriage or not but he needs to look at the pros and cons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Dig go for a walk or drive. Sometimes it helps to be alone for a while. Regret..stop lying to him. You are not saving his feelings by leaving things out. It just becomes D-Day over and over.


----------



## calvin

Cool off Dig,no she shouldnt have tt'd you but you cant do something now that can never be undone...there are no do overs Dig.
Go stay somewhere for the night.
I've been betrayed too,the one I loved almost killed me and she didnt really even see it.I takes a WW some time to come out of this.
You need a plan,storming out of the house and going off half c0cked is NOT a plan,youre smarter than this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

Regret214 said:


> I've told him so many lies, Matt that he can't take it. I've hidden, I've not wanted to tell him. And he's banned. All because someone said he was STALKING him. He threatened to kill the xOM and himself. This is so horrible that we're living.


Now I am just curious, and I may be asking this on the wrong thread, but I thought you came clean with him. While you two were reconciling, was there more you should've told him, but didn't, and have only told him recently?

Now, as for the other part:
Killing a man. 

I want you (Regret) to read my post to him. Or have him read it. Whatever works, but hopefully he won't make the mistake I did. 

So Dig, you want to bash in the other man's face so he looks repulsive, and kick him so hard in the groin, he won't have a drive to ever touch women again? 
Let me tell ya, I did the same thing. It is a long story behind it as to the how and why, so I won't get into that. 

Anyway, I beat the other man. How did that go? 
I felt awesome, while he was on the ground. Then the second it stopped, (because I was tasered) I realized, "Holy [email protected]! WHAT WAS I THINKING!" 

So, what did I accomplish?
I successfully put the OM into ICU, for who knows how long. And I made myself feel like a MAN! A MAN!!!

*Then I got hit with the bill. *[/SIZE="7"]
I faced several charges, (but I knew a detective and he was able to help me out with some of them) and some of them are on my record. For a very long time! So...that will send a message to future employers. 
Speaking of employers, my current one told me, he won't fire me, but the promotion I was being groomed to recieve, just flew away. And it took with it, its 6-figure salary, and wonderful benefit package. So I have no future in my current company. 
And if I want to leave, I will have to work REALLY hard to prove myself, because there are other guys at my level, but they have a clean police record. I don't. 
Then lets get to legal expenses. Spent $85,000 on lawyers, fines, expenses, all that wonderful stuff. You got that in a bank account somewhere? Because I could only scrape together $75,000. So I am $10,000 in the hole. (actually if you killed the OM, it would likely be...$100,000+, because you'll need a good lawyer, and if you lose, well don't worry about paying him. You'll be in prison!) So I drained all of my bank accounts, for feeling like a man for a total of what...5 minutes?

If I could take what I did back, would I?
HELL YES!!!

I have literally, shot my future for 5 minutes of pleasure! 

And yes, life sucks right now. 
But I am working, and getting my life back together, and getting happier(ish) by the day. I am living life, having fun, and do my days suck? Well I am at work, and I love my job, so no!
But are there moments, when I am so angry, I could rip a phone book in half?
You bet!
Then I try to rip a phone book in half. 

Haven't succeded yet, but trust me. 
Right now, you are in the low point. I experienced the same myself. Wife ripped my heart out, I did some incredibly stupid things, like pound my liver into the ground, and almost give myself a potential vastectomy. 
And I thought about life. 
And I never posted this on my thread.
I wanted to kill myself. What did I have to call mine? No kids, disowned my family (long story there), and a cheating wife. What was I worth?!? I remember the exact day. I had enough oral steroids in my hand to send my already damaged liver into shock, and then failure, and then my body would follow. 
Then I got a call from a good buddy of mine from forever ago. He wanted to talk.
That call saved my life. 

And I hope this message for you, is what that phone call was for me.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Dig emailed me

I just replied, regret may not like what I say to him ( i will not push him in either R or D but rather support and help him explore what he needs/wants) but I promise to try my best to calm him down


----------



## jh52

Calvin -- read what juicer just posted !!


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Calvin -- read what juicer just posted !!


I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Regret214 said:


> And what's really horrible is that TAM has been his ONLY outlet and he can't even come back here til 9/10. He's so desperate. He's so scared. I am so sorry.



I sent you a pm.


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> I did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You still wana kill him?


----------



## slater

Thanks Juicer for your candor. A sobering look at the reality of our "dreams".


----------



## calvin

no,hurt him for the taunting phone calls......very much so
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> no,hurt him for the taunting phone calls......very much so
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You got $85,000 and a connection in the police force?


----------



## Complexity

Feel bad for Dig


----------



## MattMatt

joe kidd said:


> Dig go for a walk or drive. Sometimes it helps to be alone for a while. Regret..stop lying to him. You are not saving his feelings by leaving things out. It just becomes D-Day over and over.


I think it's likely that Regret did not lie to him, in her mind, she lied *for* him. She lied to protect him, as she thought.

But a lie is still a lie. And when the truth eventually arrives, as it usually does, the BS hurts all over again.

Wash the painful lies out with the truth.

I'll be thinking of you both.


----------



## calvin

Juicer said:


> You got $85,000 and a connection in the police force?


No but I dont have two felony convictions,or threaten to go to his houe and fvck his wife,with him there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Thank you Juicer for telling us the reality of what really happens when you assault anyone, no matter how bad their previous record, it still doesn't get you off the hook.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Dig, I pm'ed moderators and Admin if they could postpone the ban. Hope they do it. 

Regret , i know now is not the time to say it but from the first day he always mentioned how you never trickle truthed and confessed everything from get go. Dig will need you for the next few days in some capacity. Stay strong and don't do anything stupid.


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> No but I dont have two felony convictions,or threaten to go to his houe and fvck his wife,with him there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hm..well lets put it like this:

You beat him up outside your house, you are dead meat in terms of the law. 

He is ever *STUPID* enough to come to your house, and threaten to bang your wife, while you are there:
Here is what you do:
You first, make sure he is in your house. This is very important. 
THEN you beat the hell out of him. 
And say you were acting in self defense. 

Like this news story I heard. 
Some guy tried breaking into the home, (well, he did break into the home) of a retired, professional body builder. 
How do you think that went?

My mistake:
Saying it was in self defense, when my 'attacker' was on the ground, unable to fight back, and getting beaten.
In a grocery store of witnesses.


----------



## calvin

Thanks juice,I know what your saying.
Just a fvcked up day.
night
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Affaircare said:


> #1--Regret if you need to talk to someone via PM, I'm here.
> 
> #2--If Dig needs to talk to someone I am POSITIVE he could either PM some of the fine folks here (like calvin or B1) and if he can't due to the ban, then folks, please state right here if you'd be willing to give your email to Dig so he has an outlet. Don't have to post your email here...just that you're willing


Dig and B1 have been emailing back and forth for a while. Dig has helped both of us through so much. B1 is trying to do the same for him now. Don't forget Regret..... because no matter how much this upsets everyone.... this is about two people, Dig and Regret, and they are BOTH hurting so much right now. I know this because I'm the WS, too, and it hurts knowing that you've hurt your spouse, your children, your family and yourself. It hurts so, so, so, much........... :'(

Dig and Regret........... praying for you guys.......... both of you.


----------



## Juicer

Hey Dig, here is some other things I forgot to put in that really long post. 

Anyway, let's look at our lives.

Yours first. 
Well, yes, your wife cheated. That is a can of worms all on its own. So I can't touch that. 
But also, you got kids. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to. And I am 31, and still don't have kids. 
You got a family that will still be behind you. Half of mine is either: dead, or I disowned. 
You still have your wife, and she is willing to comfort you. I kicked mine out, because I wasn't strong enough to take the pain of it like you are. 
You got your health (to some degree). My endocrine system, is somewhat back. But I got a liver that hates me. 

You got a lot of people that care about you, and they all want to help you. So let them. 
You have a wonderful life. You got family, and friends. 

I am not wanting to tell you to reconcile, or divorce. I just want you to realize something. 

Don't ever make a wish, that you can't undo. 

I wished to beat the other man into a pulp, and it was delivered. We both know I would take that back. But I can't.

I wished for the longest time, the first OD I took of oral steroids back in April had killed me. And now, almost 5 months later, I am glad it didn't. 
And I don't go a day without thanking God that he didn't grant that wish.


----------



## calvin

Youre right Juice,screw it youre right.
Been enough pain.More than enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Dig, if I can help I will. I'm sure there are others you are more connected to, but get regret to PM me an email contact and I'll reach out to you if it can help.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Haven't heard back from him


----------



## warlock07

Can someone call and talk to him? Beowulf used to offer to talk to triggering BS and WS. I miss that guy


----------



## Juicer

Regret, how do you think he is doing?


----------



## B1

I have not heard back from him since he emailed me earlier around the time regret made her post. 
And regret is silent also....I hope this means they are talking this out now. 

Dig is really hurting right now, I feel so bad for him. I did offer him my cell# to talk if he needed too. Sadly though all is silent


----------



## calvin

Pray
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

I would respectfully ask the Administration and Moderator staff to re-instate Somedaydig. His marriage is in crisis, and whatever issues he and I have, are not as important as him receiving the help and support he needs during this sad time. If you will give this request careful consideration, I will be grateful.


----------



## warlock07

Hope things are little better now.


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> Hope things are little better now.


He's ok, hurt and exhausted but ok.


----------



## warlock07

Good to hear


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> He's ok, hurt and exhausted but ok.


Thanks for the update B1.


----------



## Regret214

we are both exhausted, and beat up. thank you for your support, especially for Dig. we are working through this together. I feel like the boy who cried wolf and the wolf is here. please pray for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Regret214 said:


> we are both exhausted, and beat up. thank you for your support, especially for Dig. we are working through this together. I feel like the boy who cried wolf and the wolf is here. please pray for us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Praying.
You guys will make it,we all will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AMU

Regret214 said:


> we are both exhausted, and beat up. thank you for your support, especially for Dig. we are working through this together. I feel like the boy who cried wolf and the wolf is here. please pray for us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dig/Regret - been thinking about you all last night and this morning and hope you are working through this. HB has always been inspired by Dig, and we both are rooting for you. Please have Dig contact HB if he'd like to talk (he sent his e-mail address through PM to you).


----------



## Affaircare

Regret and Dig~

Just know that you two have both been in my thoughts and prayers all night. Yes, I do hope that it is possible for you both to work through your issues and save your marriage, but I do also know that sometimes the level of betrayal is just too great. If that is the case here, know that I will be extremely sad but that I won't "pick a side" and I will continue to encourage you both to do the right thing. 

I don't know all the specifics so it's impossible to make a statement, much less a judgement, but I do know that any time infidelity is involved the loyal spouse has the moral right to decide they are done. Any time they do not make that choice is nothing short of mercy above and beyond human endurance, and it should be pretty much continuously viewed as the most precious gift one spouse can give to another. 

Regret--I will say it here out loud in front of everyone: I care about you deeply. I have had hope that you and Dig would be one of the ones who survive and reconcile. And I am so deeply disappointed to hear that you continued to lie to him. I understand you may be afraid, but your fear and lying is what leads to pain like yesterday so it is UTTERLY REQUIRED that you tell the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing but the full truth all the time. How can I support, encourage or give you the strength to do that? Tell it ALL!! You just must or you'll be sunk (as you can clearly see).

As EI said, PM if you need to talk.


----------



## B1

Dig and Regret,
Thinking and praying for you both!


----------



## Harken Banks

Dig is the man.


----------



## joe kidd

Yo Dig. As soon as your ban is done we will share a few of these.


----------



## EI

Exhausted.................... B1 and I have been in contact with Dig and Regret via email and they are "working" through this situation the best way they can. When something like this happens and someone reaches out the way they did last night asking for immediate help, guidance, support..... it becomes obvious that, although TAM members are mostly nameless, faceless people, that we truly do care about one another and the outcomes of our situations. Many come here struggling with the "unknowns." Many come here seeking relief from the pain of what they do know. Many are confused and are seeking guidance from others who are further along on this long and painful journey.

TAM can be a blessing and it can be a curse. Anyone who has been here for more than a day knows exactly what I mean by that. But, it is addictive because most of us can't seem to stop ourselves from coming back again and again. In a thread like "CWI" it is impossible for every story to have a happy ending. When you have couples posting together, sharing their own stories of betrayal, deceit and attempts to reconcile, all in real time, there are bound to be ups and downs, great days and days that are pure Hell. Then, there are days that might begin as great days and you come here and find that someone whose story you are particularly vested is having a bad day and it triggers the Hell out of you. BTW.... that was not a dig, Dig (and Regret ) I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm grateful for TAM..... Yep, I never imagined I'd be saying that 2 1/2 months ago.  :scratchhead: I'm grateful for everyone, here, who has the courage to share their own stories, hurts, setbacks, successes, failures and mostly wisdom. 

Thanks guys! 

Take Care,
EI

P.S. With all of that having been said.... B1 and I had the strangest day today, complete with taking our youngest to the ER. It's an odd, bizarre story, that I think could only possibly happen to me or someone in my family.... because odd and bizarre things tend to happen to me and my family.... I think it is so that they don't happen to everyone else.... so much, or something like that.  He is home now and will be fine, but it may eventually be on the national news! I'll share it later when I have some more time and energy. Going to cuddle on the couch with B1 now. It has become one of our nightly rituals and I loooooove it!


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## CantSitStill

Oh wow sounds serious...btw very well put about TAM and about us that are reconcilling..days of hell and the way this place triggers us and yet helps. Thank you for your pm earlier, I needed it  So what happened today with you guys going to the ER? Btw Calvin and I are feeling very very close tonight and I love it.. last night was well..crazy but we are so crazy in love 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Oh wow sounds serious...btw very well put about TAM and about us that are reconcilling..days of hell and the way this place triggers us and yet helps. Thank you for your pm earlier, I needed it  So what happened today with you guys going to the ER? * Btw Calvin and I are feeling very very close tonight and I love it.. last night was well..crazy but we are so crazy in love *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're welcome for the pm, glad that it helped! And, I am very happy that you two are crazy in love. Stories like that give all of us in reconciliation hope and God knows.... we all need something to hope for! 

I'll write about the ER trip later on in the morning..... too exhausted right now.... gonna go cuddle with B1! I just tried to log off a few minutes ago and got side-lined leaving a long post to Harken Banks on the Trickle Truth thread. 

Love ya, CSS <3 

Take Care,
EI


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## CantSitStill

blaaa, talkin about what happened and bam I threw up..that always happens. Thinking about the ex OM makes me literally puke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> blaaa, talkin about what happened and bam I threw up..that always happens. Thinking about the ex OM makes me literally puke.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For me thats a good thing.I never thought I'd be on a site like this.Even when I did get on here at first I would'nt go to cwi,I really thought there was no way I needed to.
Life is so f'd up sometimes.I love CSS always have,forever will.
So damn hard sometimes but not impossible.
love is something isnt it? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Hey just wanted to shout out to Dig and Regret..hope you two are doing better, this crap gets worse before it gets better..hold on tight because this is one crazy rollercoaster ride but it is worth trying, don't give up just yet because it takes time to heal. Praying for you two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Nobody ever said reconcilliation is easy. Regret let him know how grateful you are for this chance. I'll tell you what, none of us Waywards deserve this second chance. It is a gift, it is real true and sincere love when the person we betrayed is willing to give the marriage another try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Dig and Regret,

Thinking about you two...hope you two are doing better.


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## calvin

Morning everyone,its nice not to have to get up at 2:30 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

How's everyone doing today?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

Hi everyone...I wanted to give you all an update on where Dig and I are. After a very long and difficult few days, we are feeling some peace. 

It's involved for me to provide many details right now, but I will try to summarize. After a couple days of watching Dig struggle and question his own sanity, and eventually say he was going to leave, something in me clicked. In addition, I had a long conversation with my mother and came clean to her about the root of our marital problems. When she asked if she should tell my dad, I said "yes, I am done having secrets." I knew what I had to do, but didn't know what would happen if I gave Dig the truth of some details of my A. 

I thought that at least one would be a deal breaker, and others I was just ashamed of. I had withheld these things knowingly and lied over and over and one on top of another to CMA. Ya know what? The lies were the deal breaker, not the A. Since Thursday, Dig and I feel so much better. He doesn't seem to be struggling as much with himself and my heart palpitations are virtually gone. 

Where do we stand now? I am no long hiding ANYTHING and have no feelings that there is more I have suppressed. I have promised that if at any time, either in conversations with Dig or in IC, if I touch upon something we hadn't discussed, I will tell him. We have talked about things since the $hit hit the fan on Thursday, and it has been so much easier because I am not scared that he is going to ask me again about what I had been hiding.

For those WS out there who are trying to reconcile....trust me that the lies will hurt your spouse far more than what you did with the AP. If they want to know.....TELL them! Don't open all the flood gates at one sitting. Gage their response and ask them to tell you when the are ready for more. Don't brain dump to "get it off your chest" and most definitely, TELL THE TRUTH! If they are asking, they want to know!

Thank you all again for all your support and caring. We feel a bond with you all, despite being virtual strangers. I would imagine that if we all decided to meet someplace for dinner that there would be a lot of hugs, laughs, and probably a lot of tears. We are blessed to have found a family of understanding friends who will unconditionally provide advice and encouragement. God bless you all!


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## EI

I'm so glad that the two of you are in a better place. The storm always comes before the rainbow~


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## warlock07

I remember posting on Dig's thread that the only deal breaker now would be more lies and continued trickle truth. I do not want to rub it in but if you have the time, look at his older posts. He defended you to his friends and lost his social circle. He kept defending you on TAM when people accused you of lying. (I did imply you might have rewrote some parts of the story to suit your R and that the affair was the best case scenario for some one in an affair for 5 years)


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## calvin

No more TT Regret,its torture for us bs's.
Glad to hear you guys are doing better.
In our prayers and good luck to you both..stay in the game. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frank29

Brilliant news i sincerely hope and pray that all goes well for you both


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## jh52

Hi Regret:

Glad you and Dig are in a better place today.

I read your last POST and hope and pray that you follow your own advice -- no more TT -- no more lying by omission, no more changing what happened to protect Dig from further hurt.

If you stop and realize -- and I think you know this -- you have hurt him more than anything/anyone could possibly have hurt him. You both had the option after DD to leave the marriage -- you both decided that is not what you want at this time -- you both have a 2nd chance which so many people on TAM wish they could have --- you both will have good days and bad days -- you as the WS have to be open like a book. 

Take advantage of this 2nd chance because you may regret it for the rest of your life if you don't.

Praying you two will get through this.


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## Regret214

warlock07 said:


> I remember posting on Dig's thread that the only deal breaker now would be more lies and continued trickle truth. I do not want to rub it in but if you have the time, look at his older posts. He defended you to his friends and lost his social circle. He kept defending you on TAM when people accused you of lying. (I did imply you might have rewrote some parts of the story to suit your R and that the affair was the best case scenario for some one in an affair for 5 years)


Yes, you are correct in that sustained lies would be the ultimate deal breaker. It unfortunately took me too long to recognize that. I was holding onto some details so tightly and lying to protect those lies. I didn't want him to know that I had lied. 

He did defend me to our "friends", but their motivation for turning their backs on us was not only my A, but that they blamed him for breaking up the OMs marriage by giving his wife some of the details.

And, yes, Dig defended me on TAM when some accused me of lying. He was defending me because I had been addressing some feelings about the affair and the how I view the affair and feel about it have not been lied about or minimized. Yes, I lied to him about some specific details of what I did with the OM, but never my feelings. He knew this and will defend me on that point to this day.

I must apologize to all of you who have been impacted by my trickle truth....it is never better to protect your ego and perpetuate lies. I have learned this lesson, and am extraordinarily grateful that Dig has chosen to continue to reconcile and rebuild our marriage.


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## jh52

"He did defend me to our "friends", but their motivation for turning their backs on us was not only my A, but that they blamed him for breaking up the OMs marriage by giving his wife some of the details."

I read this and the first thought I had was "with friends like these who needs enemies."

These never were your friends -- for them to blame Dig for the OM marriage breaking up is beyond belief. They are a pack of toxic "friends" who are enablers -- and never ever want to take repsonsibilty for their own actions -- instead they always find excuses and blame someone else.

I know it hurts when people you thought were "friends" turn against you but you and Dig are better off without these enablers -- you will see that in the long run.


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## CantSitStill

That's great Regret, and doesn't it feel better to have it all out? Now you two can R with no secrets. I remember how I hated giving Calvin details because I knew it hurt him. It wasn't easy and I still don't even like thinking about how much pain I put him thru. It of course makes it hard for them to trust you. In time you two will feel a little bit better. Like I said, there will still be bad days but just don't give up. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

CantSitStill said:


> That's great Regret, and doesn't it feel better to have it all out? Now you two can R with no secrets. I remember how I hated giving Calvin details because I knew it hurt him. It wasn't easy and I still don't even like thinking about how much pain I put him thru. It of course makes it hard for them to trust you. In time you two will feel a little bit better. Like I said, there will still be bad days but just don't give up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, there will still be bad days, but not as bad as this week has been. I feel empowered by the truth. I respect that the trust will take time, and am patient. The only way to regain Dig's trust is to prove my trustworthiness. I let him know that he can implement any tools he needs (ie keylogger, VAR, providing minutes for all meetings, etc.) I have nothing to hide and whatever makes him comfortable right now I am willing to do. I did tell him that I don't want to know if he uses spy gear....that would be counterproductive. I think he appreciated that.

Thank you for you support! I WON'T GIVE UP!


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## B1

Empty Inside said:


> I'm so glad that the two of you are in a better place. The storm always comes before the rainbow~


Agree with EI.

Regret, I think you have just jumped over a MAJOR hurdle, granted it's late in the game but you have done it. I'm so glad DIG was able to work through this with you, it must have been so hard for him. TT I think can be more damaging than the facts. TT'ing is like getting beat up over and over again. 

Regret, telling your mom was HUGE, I'm so glad you were able to do that.

Both of you have been through hell and back AGAIN these past few days. I truly hope you never have to go back there again.

Thinking and praying for you both. Hope you two have a great memorial weekend.


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## daisygirl 41

My thoughts and prayers go out to you both. R sure is a rocky road, but lest hope you are both in for a smoother ride now that all the truth is out.
Well done Regret for having the courage to tell Dig everything now.

H and I are 6 months in R after his year long EA turned PA with a co worker.
We are doing really well. Bit of a different scenario here though as I know I don't know ALL the details or ALL the truth as I haven't asked. H has answered all my questions and will talk about the A any time I want but there are some things I just dont want to discuss. Rug sweeping? Maybe, but I feel I don't NEED to know all the details. Maybe one day I will and when that day cones H has promised to answer me truthfully. He also said that he didn't want to hurt me anymore with details, but as we all agree here, it's not the details that hurt, it's the lies. And that's what hurt me the most, not so much the details of the A but the fact that he lied to me and hurt me with his words ( H was in a very deep A fog). We have discussed this and he knows that if I EVER catch him lying to me again about ANYTHING then I'm done. 

Take care of each other 
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

jh52 said:


> "He did defend me to our "friends", but their motivation for turning their backs on us was not only my A, but that they blamed him for breaking up the OMs marriage by giving his wife some of the details."
> 
> I read this and the first thought I had was "with friends like these who needs enemies."
> 
> These never were your friends -- for them to blame Dig for the OM marriage breaking up is beyond belief. They are a pack of toxic "friends" who are enablers -- and never ever want to take repsonsibilty for their own actions -- instead they always find excuses and blame someone else.
> 
> I know it hurts when people you thought were "friends" turn against you but you and Dig are better off without these enablers -- you will see that in the long run.


We absolutely recognize this, now! At the time, we were very hurt. We thought they were unconditional friends...We have come to learn that true friends will support us regardless our faults and they do not judge. True friends will encourage us to improve ourselves. True friends will be friends of our marriage. We know who our true friends are now.


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## seasalt

Mrs. Dig,

In my earliest post directed to you I suggested that you try to keep or restore your dinity and should be circumspect in your responses on this site but certainly not with your husband. If you remember that was the time of JB100 and his brand of rabble rousing.

In that vein I'm glad to see that you haven't given details of your newly revealed truths and would like to suggest that your husband not do so either if and when he returns. Previously, it was mentioned by Betrayed1 or perhaps Empty Inside that certain items are better discussed and left privately where they can't be continuing triggers to be picked at by strangers.

Good luck to you and your husband


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## warlock07

jh52 said:


> "He did defend me to our "friends", but their motivation for turning their backs on us was not only my A, but that they blamed him for breaking up the OMs marriage by giving his wife some of the details."
> 
> I read this and the first thought I had was "with friends like these who needs enemies."
> 
> These never were your friends -- for them to blame Dig for the OM marriage breaking up is beyond belief. They are a pack of toxic "friends" who are enablers -- and never ever want to take repsonsibilty for their own actions -- instead they always find excuses and blame someone else.
> 
> I know it hurts when people you thought were "friends" turn against you but you and Dig are better off without these enablers -- you will see that in the long run.


You are mistaken. You got some of the facts wrong and the situation is not black and white. You might have missed Dig's posts regarding this.the friends did not know of Regret's affair before it was exposed. They were angry at Dig because he sent the details of the affair to the OMW and she filed for divorce, Hence they they think Dig was responsible for the dividing the OM's family(kids) while he chose to stay together with the wife and keep his family. (Dig did give OM a chance to come clean to his wife but he misused it)


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## warlock07

Regret214 said:


> We absolutely recognize this, now! At the time, we were very hurt. We thought they were unconditional friends...We have come to learn that true friends will support us regardless our faults and they do not judge. True friends will encourage us to improve ourselves. True friends will be friends of our marriage. We know who our true friends are now.



In their own minds, you weren't a good friend to them either. See, judge them through the same eyes you judge yourself. If they are wrong, so be it. They are human after all.


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## Wazza

jh52 said:


> So what you are saying it's okay for their so called friends turning against Dig and Regret without ever knowing all the facts.
> 
> So how is it Dig's responsibilty for OMW wanting to divorce OM when both OM and Regret were in the affair -- and Dig and Regret are trying to R. Both BS's had a choice and made it -- for these so-called friends to take sides in totally enabling OM.
> 
> Seems to me that what is even worse is that OM did not take his repsonsiblilty in his affair by telling his friends the truth . My guess is he didn't want his friends not supporting him and blamed everything on Regret -- which in my eyes makes OM not only a cheat, but a coward.
> 
> And if OM did tell the friends the truth -- and the friends know about the affair -- and still blame Dig -- then like I said -- with friends like this who need enemies.


From outside the marriage, you can't know all the facts. All of us here only know what Dig and Regret tell us, and they've been clear it's not the whole story. The friends are the same.

I assume that Regret and OM were both responsible for the affair, and I assume the possibility that actions by Dig and OMW weakened the marriage such that an affair became possible. If I was friends with them and the others I would try to avoid assigning blame or taking sides. I would just try to support everyone as best I could.

I always think the advice to expose an affair to all of your friends is one of the most dangerous pieces of advice on this site, since I tend to think it would almost always be counterproductive and rebound on the one who did it. If someone pushes me to take sides it will create distance between us.

There's the extra complexity that Dig described this circle as being concerned with status. That may have affected who got the cold shoulder, but in that case I wouldn't want such friends anyway.

Fairly or otherwise. Dig's experience is what I'd expect to be normal.


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## Badblood

UNconditional friendship is exactly that, unconditional. A true friend is much more than a cheerleader, but someone who will tell you the truth, even when you don't want to hear the truth. Someone who holds you to higher standards than you hold yourself. and in spite of your failings, will have your back when the cheerleaders fall away. Very , very, rare and precious.


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## calvin

morning everyone.
Great descritption of a good friend BB,I'd rather have the few close friends I have than 20 "friends". People really find out who their friends are when the chips are down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

calvin said:


> morning everyone.
> Great descritption of a good friend BB,I'd rather have the few close friends I have than 20 "friends". People really find out who their friends are when the chips are down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is so true, Cal. I am very fortunate to have 4 or 5 very close friends, the kind who will drop whatever they are doing to come to my aid, when I am having troubles, and vice versa. During my ex's mental troubles and our divorce, they were the main reason that I pulled through, and was able to start again. Where I would be without them, I can't think.:smthumbup:


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## Badblood

Sorry, B1 and EI, for intruding on you guy's thread (yet again, lol), but I wanted to comment on the friendship thing, as it is VERY important to me.


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## CantSitStill

Hey B1 and Em..you two haven't updated in a while. Hoping you're doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

CSS..Yes, we are doing fine...EI is at her IC session now. She has been a busy little bee today. I am off today, had a 4 day weekend and got a few things done around the house and basically chilled the rest of the time.

We have had several good days in a row now. Very few tears in the last several days for me. Sometimes I feel like when things are going this well that something is wrong. It's weird, but I read so many stories where people are still angry, bitter etc. at about 3 months out. I'm just not angry anymore, If anything I still hurt or go through hurt more than any other emotion.
Perhaps this will change?

I have learned to control the mind movies much better. I am learning to keep the xOM OUT of our marriage and my thoughts. I do know that if I bring the A up and it gets deep that EI will be very quite afterwards for a while, it hurts her to talk about it. She will without hesitation, but if I bring something up then as she says, "I have to go back there and relive it all over again." This is counter productive to R. Reliving it, is like ripping the bandage off some. Not sure what else to do though?

She is a VERY emotional person, so when I drum up the A and want to talk some details it's really hard on her. Thank goodness I am doing less and less of that.

Oh we still talk about it but the questions regarding the sex details are dwindling down substantially. This, I think, is a good thing. I am coming to terms with this. I am also learning to NOT compare myself to the xOM, something I had a hard time not doing before.


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## CantSitStill

Everyone is different and so everyone goes through different emotions. We don't talk about the A much anymore but when we do I feel physically sick to my stomach. It's hard for even me to believe I acted that way. I have been very emotional too. I cry I think every time it's brought up. It's because we hurt the one we love so badly and we want a do over. We want to erase all the bad. It's natural for a remorseful wife to get emotional. I love just enjoying our every moment together. If you read our thread lately then you know we had a very rough weekend. We can't predict good and bad days but we can choose to hold on tight and never give up on making our marriage better 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

A mixed day yesterday...started off on a bad note, triggering bad and going through a range of emotions at work in early am. I was actually writing a pretty harsh email to EI until a text came in from her saying how sorry she was and how much she loved me. I don't know how she does that, it happens often. It calmed me. I deleted the email and sent another one not as harsh.

I came home and all was good then late evening I had to cover a few things about the A that was eating at me. A particular night of the A was bothering me and we adressed that night. We talked and talked and I cried some but we got through it. 

It's NOT all sunshine and roses and dancing in the rain, I just want everyone to know that. We don't post every event that happens. I am posting this just so people will know that 3 months out we are still struggeling some, we still have really bad moments, not whole bad days though, just bad hours and minutes. We ARE working through these problems and we are moving forwards NOT backwards.

It's flat out NOT easy, it is work, there is frustration, there is confussion sometimes as to what your spouse is thinking and really feeling. Communication is absolutely critical!

I need to come to terms with the A, I need to learn to put it behind me. I will be SO glad when I can do that. However, I fear it will be a while. But that's ok, I love this woman, I can do this, we will work this out, and we will grow old together.


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## calvin

Yeah,it can be rough B1.
I dont wish this on damn near anyone.It sucks the life out of you and messes with your head bad.
Moving foward is what counts,keep pushing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

EI is a clever woman.


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## Almostrecovered

she probably has a keylogger emailing her what you were writing, so she could proactively keep you feeling secure

:FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil:

EVIL!!!


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## CantSitStill

Hang in there. We are still struggling. It is alot of work. I know it's unfair and I know it sucks and I know as the WS I totally regret doing this to him and I also know I won't ever even think about doing it again. Keep communicating. Calvin thought I had been hiding something or doing something when I interrupt him but that is so not true. I guess you guys get scared that it will happen again. I tell him I wish he had cameras set up here or in my truck to see that I'm not doing anything. I don't want him to worry. There is nothing to worry about but how do I prove it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

A BS is gun shy for awhile,I know you wont do something likes this again.You've seen the damage it causes.
Love you CSS,we'll make it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

good morning all...

I think EI has finally made her decision about working. She isn't going to right now. She has been trying it out part time and she likes it but we have so much going on at home ALL the time. Surgery next week, IC and MC, PT for our other sons knee surgery and on and on....

EI also has something else on her plate now regarding the ER run we had last week. I'm not saying anything just yet, becuase we have contacted and Atty. and we may need to keep quite about it. But it very well could pay for his college education. He's fine, we don't think anything bad will come from what happened to him. I can tell you this, I wont drink from anything that I can't see into from now on


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## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> she probably has a keylogger emailing her what you were writing, so she could proactively keep you feeling secure
> 
> :FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil:
> 
> EVIL!!!


Yeah, yeah, I wish I had the ability to get a key logger on a government owned computer. I'm good.... but not THAT good! 

I just love my husband.... and I want to help him heal... because I really believe that we are going to get through this and be better than we've ever been before. B1 and I have both worked so hard and done so many things for so many people. We were so busy taking care of everyone else that we didn't have anything left to give each other. Now, we both realized that we are the most important thing to one another and we will never take that for granted again. We come first with each other, now,... everyone else is gonna have to get in line.....  The kids are grown.... they still need us... a lot. But, it's okay if B1 and I go out to dinner on a Friday night and the 17 year makes himself a frozen pizza, sandwich, fast food, whatever. It's even okay if B1 and I spend a little money on ourselves instead of giving it to the kids to spend on themselves.... right? Repeat?? It really is okay!!!


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## CantSitStill

Heck ya Empty! That's how we feel now too! We have been telling other people no and I love love love my time with Calvin  I really should be cleaning right now lol. I keep saying that but haven't started yet. At least my grocery shopping is done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Hey was just thinkin...(lol always thinking too much) but anyway, isn't Dig gonna be back soon?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

Monday


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## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> good morning all...
> 
> I think EI has finally made her decision about working. She isn't going to right now. She has been trying it out part time and she likes it but we have so much going on at home ALL the time. Surgery next week, IC and MC, PT for our other sons knee surgery and on and on....
> 
> EI also has something else on her plate now regarding the ER run we had last week. I'm not saying anything just yet, becuase we have contacted and Atty. and we may need to keep quite about it. But it very well could pay for his college education. He's fine, we don't think anything bad will come from what happened to him. I can tell you this, I wont drink from anything that I can't see into from now on


This post was confusing to me..what does someone had to go to the ER have to do with college money and drinking out of something you can't see have to do with eachother.. it's like a puzzle...things that make you go hmmmm
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Hey was just thinkin...(lol always thinking too much) but anyway, isn't Dig gonna be back soon?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Monday, June 10th..............


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Monday, June 10th..............


Put the wine away EI !! LOL:smthumbup::smthumbup:

It's Monday September 10th !!


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## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> This post was confusing to me..what does someone had to go to the ER have to do with college money and drinking out of something you can't see have to do with eachother.. it's like a puzzle...things that make you go hmmmm
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS -- it's something B1 and EI can not talk about at the moment.


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## Regret214

CantSitStill said:


> Hey was just thinkin...(lol always thinking too much) but anyway, isn't Dig gonna be back soon?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dig will be back on Monday!! Yay!!

Goodness, it seems like he's been gone an awfully long time for such a silly thing. But that's my opinion and I might be bias.


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## Regret214

jh52 said:


> Put the wine away EI !! LOL:smthumbup::smthumbup:
> 
> It's Monday September 10th !!


OMG!! Ahahaha! I didn't even realize she wrote June.

EI, I'm drinking a little wine after work today, too. It's all good for the weekend.


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## CantSitStill

June lolol hey pass that wine bottle over here hehehe  glad he's gonna be back soon, seems like it's been so long but thank goodness it's not a permanent one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

2015


----------



## EI

Oh my, I've read all of these replies and I just now picked up on the June 10th. I've got a bad case of brain drain. I've lost 3 months....... Geeeeeez, I need a Margarita..... "Waitress, over heeeere!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty let's go to margarittaville 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

akk bad spelling..maybe I should switch to coffee or water
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

Empty Inside said:


> Oh my, I've read all of these replies and I just now picked up on the June 10th. I've got a bad case of brain drain. I've lost 3 months....... Geeeeeez, I need a Margarita..... "Waitress, over heeeere!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uh...brain damage...and alcohol.....
So, I am not a doctor, and I am a hypocrite here since I did in my liver on some things, but I feel like those two things probably don't mix well...


----------



## CantSitStill

Juicer, how have you been feeling? I woke up choking on that hot acid stuff coming up my throat last night too. Hate that, it's scary. Hope you're feeling better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Juicer said:


> Uh...brain damage...and alcohol.....
> So, I am not a doctor, and I am a hypocrite here since I did in my liver on some things, but I feel like those two things probably don't mix well...



Well, I don't think I really have brain damage (although B1 might disagree with that .....) just "tired brain syndrome" or something like that and I only had one Margarita and I didn't even finish it...... LOL


----------



## Juicer

CantSitStill said:


> Juicer, how have you been feeling? I woke up choking on that hot acid stuff coming up my throat last night too. Hate that, it's scary. Hope you're feeling better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Better.

Told my doctor what I experienced, and he could only speculate without some other test (like, giving my drugs to cause acid reflux...) to determine the makeup of the acid. But what he thinks happened:
Had some bad liver bile leak into the stomach. Way to acidic or toxic for the stomach was expecting, so it got rid of it. 
But because I was sleeping, and laying down, I didn't register it until it was in my throat for...a while. It felt like I had a pool of vinegar sitting in my throat. God did that BURN!


----------



## EI

Juicer said:


> Better.
> 
> Told my doctor what I experienced, and he could only speculate without some other test (like, giving my drugs to cause acid reflux...) to determine the makeup of the acid. But what he thinks happened:
> Had some bad liver bile leak into the stomach. Way to acidic or toxic for the stomach was expecting, so it got rid of it.
> But because I was sleeping, and laying down, I didn't register it until it was in my throat for...a while. It felt like I had a pool of vinegar sitting in my throat. God did that BURN!



I used to have acid reflux years ago and took Nexium for it.... that's the little purple pill.... not to be confused with the little blue pill.  Before I started taking Nexium, I would wake up in the middle of the night and feel like I had liquid fire in my throat. It was horrible. I totally revamped my diet and made sure that I didn't eat anything several hours before bedtime and it made all the difference in the world. I don't have to take meds for it anymore. I just can't eat spicy foods the way I used to.


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> Well, I don't think I really have brain damage (although B1 might disagree with that .....) just "tired brain syndrome" or something like that and I only had one Margarita and I didn't even finish it...... LOL


Margaritas make me pass out lol. Whenever I order one from a resteraunt I land up asking them to take it back and make it a little weaker. As for that hot crap that comes up in the middle of the night, I do take my prilosec when I remember but it doesn't happen much anymore. For some reason it happens if I snack on peanuts at night. Once I start eating them I can't stop. This sucks, the older we get the more stuff affects us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Morning B1,Empty and everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Morning B1,Empty and everyone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Morning All....yawn...


----------



## calvin

Wake and bake!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

calvin said:


> Wake and bake!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haven't done that in a while.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Didn't know Calvin was a college student


----------



## calvin

Almostrecovered said:


> Didn't know Calvin was a college student


And I dont ever want to graduate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> And I dont ever want to graduate
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who would? College is great. The parties, the friends, the things you learn, the experiences, why would someone ever want to part with it?


----------



## Almostrecovered

what time is Dig released from banishment? I can go pick him up at the jail if he needs a ride


----------



## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> what time is Dig released from banishment? I can go pick him up at the jail if he needs a ride


I'm not exactly sure, but I know that he was itching to log on as early as 12:01 a.m. this morning. Unfortunately, the admins had not, yet, signed his release papers!!!

*HEY ADMIIIIIIIIIIIIINS, IT'S DIG'S RELEASE DATE????????????????*


Not that his friends and TAM Family are anxious to hear from him..... or anything like that?????


----------



## EI

Hey *Dig*,

*Just in case you stop by our thread, I think I can safely say that your wit, wisdom, and unique brand of sarcasm were sorely missed 'round these parts!!!!!*

*Welcome Back, Dig!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Regret214

I only have a second because I'm at work. Dig's processing time is at 4pm and he is in a classroom all week to boot. I would imagine as soon as he rolls into the house, he'll log on to say hello. After he gives me a kiss, of course!


----------



## B1

***Welcome back DIG***

This is your official welcome back banner on this thread


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> ***Welcome back DIG***
> 
> This is your official welcome back banner on this thread


*IS NOT*..... I already did that two posts up! Pfffttt.........  

Just because you put color in your "Welcome Back" banner does not mean it's any better than mine! 

_*Whatever.........*_

_B1, can you show me how to do colors when you come home? Hmmm.... _


----------



## CantSitStill

the ban will have a time of day on it so might not be til later
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey Empty, sorry I signed off right after I posted last night
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> the ban will have a time of day on it so might not be til later
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dig is out of jail NOW !!!:smthumbup:


----------



## SomedayDig

I just got sprung.

Man, I've been peddling smokes and trying to make life in the slammer a bit easier. Conjugal visitation was nice, though!

WHAT'S UP!!!????

Man, I missed you nutcases.


----------



## joe kidd

S'up Dig. Keep your nose clean.


----------



## SomedayDig

I underwent sinuscopy Kidd. It's all good!


----------



## pidge70

Even though you and I have never interacted, welcome back!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Who are you?


----------



## SomedayDig

Reconciliation is sometimes like my golf game. When this crap hurts so bad sometimes, its like the slice monster that comes out of my driver off the tee. I hate it. I fixate on it. I can't get it out of my head.

But then, I remember the awesome shots I've made before and I can see that little white ball in my mind flying through the air and landing softly on the green. Those shots that happen more often than the horrible slice monster.

It keeps me coming back to the game.


----------



## SomedayDig

pidge70 said:


> Even though you and I have never interacted, welcome back!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmm...I seem to believe you are in some part with Kidd, right?



Almostrecovered said:


> Who are you?


I am the Alpha!!

LMAO!!!:rofl:


----------



## pidge70

Almostrecovered said:


> Who are you?


I'm gonna slap you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

WOO-HOO...Glad your finally back Dig!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

*It's party time! Dig's back........ Whoo-Hoo.......... B1 and I will be right back... we're going to get the beer and snacks!*


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I am the Alpha!!
> 
> LMAO!!!:rofl:


*And don't let anyone ever tell you that you're not, Dig!!! *

I'm kinda being a little sarcastic.............. 

Can ya tell?


----------



## daisygirl 41

Welcome back Dig!


----------



## Almostrecovered

Oh Christ you guys are almost as bad as bandits refugees


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm not as good as bandit! LOL

Hare Krishna, maybe.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey Dig, goos to see you back 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frank29

Dig Regret after reading your posts i feel totally washed out it must have been horrendous for both of you i cannot say anything but i wish you the very best of luck with your lives and thank you for being so open and honest about how you both felt it has helped me in so many ways but for me it is to late i wish you both long and happy lives together


----------



## SomedayDig

Thanks CSS!!

Frank...it's been an extremely difficult run, that much is true. However, I will say this again and again: I love my wife, Regret. I loved her then. I absolutely HATE what she did to me and to our marriage. But I love her.

I'm glad that in some way our story has helped you, regardless of the outcome of your situation - which I'm sorry it's too late, man.

This reconciliation stuff ain't easy. It's actually pretty scary. It's daunting. However, I feel that in the end, as long as both parties are on the same page the marriage is stronger than it ever was. At least, that's how I feel about things.


----------



## EI

Dig, welcome back! TAM isn't nearly as fun, funky or edgy when you're not around. I'm glad that you and Regret are back on track. Thanks for taking the time to help B1 deal with some issues of his own, even while you were in the midst of your own crises. Sometimes, he just needs to vent and it can't be to me because it is about me or we have come to some sort of impasse. He and I hit a bit of a road block a few days ago. It wasn't that I wasn't being truthful, he just did not like my truth. We both stuck to our guns and he bounced it off of you and you gave him some very helpful advice without making me feel attacked. It helped us, both, tremendously, and I thank you for being there for him and, in turn, for us. Because, at the end of the day, I have begin to realize that B1 and I are on the same team now. I know that every marriage can't be saved, nor should they, but I will say that Regret and I are incredibly blessed to be married to men who love us enough to stay in the game when the going gets tough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Oh, heck...I didn't really do anything except give him a little idea. B1's the one who put it in his own words and you both worked on your relationship. My input was miniscule. But thank you for the kind words. It was good that B1 and I got to email back and forth. For both of us! Plus, we could actually swear in the emails and they weren't censored!! LMAO


----------



## Badblood

Reconciliation is having the opportunity to make amends and to forgive, and the key word is opportunity. What if you never got the chance? What if your spouse wasn't coming home, and all you got was a folded up flag? We sit here behind our screens and pontificate, rail, moan and whine, about our petty (and in the greater scheme of things it is petty) questions about our relationships, and there are people who would give their soul to have what we have. We live, love cheat and forgive behind a wall. The wall is made of the bodies of our youth. I never cried when my wife cheated, but I cry a lot for my brothers and their families. Sorry for the T/J, but on 9/11 I tend to reflect.


----------



## EI

Who says that affairs end marriages? I'll tell ya what ends marriages.... having to give your spouse directions to the interstate from downtown while trying to get home from the hospital when you haven't slept in days, definitely have some horrible form of the stomach flu, and have already been forwarned that the old, incontinent, diaper wearing, seizure having, biting dog has left several messes for you when we get home. I JUST WANT TO GO TO SLEEP.......... :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> Who says that affairs end marriages? I'll tell ya what ends marriages.... having to give your spouse directions to the interstate from downtown while trying to get home from the hospital when you haven't slept in days, definitely have some horrible form of the stomach flu, and have already been forwarned that the old, incontinent, diaper wearing, seizure having, biting dog has left several messes for you when we get home. I JUST WANT TO GO TO SLEEP.......... :-/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, sorry you are feeling poorly.

And how is the dog, by the way? 

Maybe he could lend you some diapers for your stomach flu?


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> Who says that affairs end marriages? I'll tell ya what ends marriages.... having to give your spouse directions to the interstate from downtown while trying to get home from the hospital when you haven't slept in days, definitely have some horrible form of the stomach flu, and have already been forwarned that the old, incontinent, diaper wearing, seizure having, biting dog has left several messes for you when we get home. I JUST WANT TO GO TO SLEEP.......... :-/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lulaby, and good night.....dumty dum dum dee dee dah. I don't remember the words.:scratchhead:


----------



## Badblood

Or better still......relax.......put your feet up......make a cup of tea.....and listen This Masquerade - George Benson (1976) - YouTube


----------



## B1

Empty Inside said:


> Who says that affairs end marriages? I'll tell ya what ends marriages.... having to give your spouse directions to the interstate from downtown while trying to get home from the hospital when you haven't slept in days, definitely have some horrible form of the stomach flu, and have already been forwarned that the old, incontinent, diaper wearing, seizure having, biting dog has left several messes for you when we get home. I JUST WANT TO GO TO SLEEP.......... :-/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are back from the hospital where our special needs son had a new baclofen pump put in him. This helps keep his legs and arms somewhat limber. EI was sick the whole time too. What a rough couple of days. 

We did have a LOT of talk time though which was good. We talked a lot about how we are dealing with this and how important honesty is, even if it is painful to hear. We discovered that her honesty about events of that A can cause me to see some things she didn't. Not getting into details here, but it was a good two days of on and off talking about certain difficult subjects.

I slept alone last night too(she stayed at the hospital), the first time since Dday. I didn't like it...I missed her.


----------



## Grey Goose

Empty Inside said:


> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> I LOVE this, but my question for those who seek a second chance, how long did it take you to understand something like this and to see the value in those you hurt the most, to lead you to the point where you would do anything for a second chance?:scratchhead:


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> We are back from the hospital where our special needs son had a new baclofen pump put in him. This helps keep his legs and arms somewhat limber. EI was sick the whole time too. What a rough couple of days.
> 
> We did have a LOT of talk time though which was good. We talked a lot about how we are dealing with this and how important honesty is, even if it is painful to hear. We discovered that her honesty about events of that A can cause me to see some things she didn't. Not getting into details here, but it was a good two days of on and off talking about certain difficult subjects.
> 
> *I slept alone last night too(she stayed at the hospital), the first time since Dday. I didn't like it...I missed her.*



Awww...... I missed you, too, Baby! <3 Well, I was actually pretty sick, myself, and of course our son was in a lot of pain and was extremely nauseous, and the nurses kept coming in every 15 minutes turning on all of the lights, then those damn machines kept beeping, and the old hypochondriac in the room next door never shut up his complaining, coughing and yelling at the nurses all night long, there's a few other things, too, but if it weren't for all of that and I had had time to really think about it.... I would have missed you terribly!  

No, really, I missed you very much.  Sleeping beside you, when you put one arm under my pillow and hold my hand and your other arm around my waist..... that's the good stuff! But, we've got tonight.................


----------



## calvin

I know how it feels Empty,I'm lucky to get maybe 
five hours a night.If I dont have CSS to put my arm around and snuggle up to I sleep like crap.
Glad to hear your sons doing good.
Sorry about Fido's "presents".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Grey Goose said:


> Empty Inside said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> I LOVE this, but my question for those who seek a second chance, how long did it take you to understand something like this and to see the value in those you hurt the most, to lead you to the point where you would do anything for a second chance?:scratchhead:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so exhausted right now, but I'm going to try to answer you because it is such a valid question. My answer, of course, can only pertain to my situation with B1, the OP of this thread. Our marriage, prior to my affair had disintegrated into ruins in what I would call a "slow-fade." It wasn't always in such a terrible state, it had been a wonderful marriage for a long time, although it had always lacked a mature type of passion and by passion I mean much more than in just the physical sense, but it definitely lacked in that area as well. We had married young and I had always hoped that we would grow in that area.
> 
> By the time my affair began I felt completely disconnected from B1, and as far as I was concerned there wasn't really anything left for me to disconnect from, as I felt that he had abandoned me emotionally and physically long before. On D-day, May 27th, I felt no hope whatsoever that this marriage could be saved.... nor did I truly have any desire to save it. The only question would be how long it would take for us to legally dissolve a marriage that involved 5 children, a special needs child, one minor child, and a lot more debts than assets, etc. There would be no end to this marriage any time soon. B1 and I talked and talked.... for hours, days, weeks, now months. We hadn't communicated like this in years. My betrayed spouse (BS) found himself in the unfortunate position of comforting me as I went through the (then) gut-wrenching pain of withdrawal from my former AP. I found myself comforting him as he suffered through the gut-wrenching pain of betrayal (by me.) It hurt me to see him in so much pain, then, I began to feel guilty because I was the cause of his pain. He comforted me, I comforted him..... we were all that we had in the world as we began going through the necessary myriad of emotions of anger, bitterness, resentment, despair, sheer devastation. We found ourselves untangling all of the lies, deceit, betrayal, unresolved hurts from the past.... everything, all of it. I don't know if our situation is unique or if it is common. What I do know is that, during this time, B1 and I both began being honest.... brutally honest. Our MC didn't even recommend this level of honesty. Honest about my affair, honest about both of our failures in our marriage prior to my affair, honest about what we were and still are feeling. The maturity, the growth, the passion, everything that I had always hoped for, longed for, and more..... it began to evolve within both of us during this time. We have both grown and changed and matured so much in the last 3 1/2 months. B1 truly is my partner, my very best friend, my children's father, my lover, my husband..... my 'til death do us part, he is the man who holds my heart. We are stronger this week than we were last week and two weeks before that, a month before that. I can't wait to see where we are in 6 months, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years. Do I expect bumps along the way?.... pretty much every day..... But, I no longer fear these bumps like I did just a few days ago, I no longer think they are setbacks, I recently realized that these bumps are growing pains, learning opportunities, a chance to grow even closer, more intimate.....
> 
> I know that some people won't understand this, maybe some won't believe me, but I know that B1 and I will not only survive infidelity we will thrive, we will have a better marriage than we ever dreamed of having before..... NOT because of my infidelity, but because of what we learned about ourselves and one another in light of my infidelity.
Click to expand...


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Grey Goose said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so exhausted right now, but I'm going to try to answer you because it is such a valid question. My answer, of course, can only pertain to my situation with B1, the OP of this thread. Our marriage, prior to my affair had disintegrated into ruins in what I would call a "slow-fade." It wasn't always in such a terrible state, it had been a wonderful marriage for a long time, although it had always lacked a mature type of passion and by passion I mean much more than in just the physical sense, but it definitely lacked in that area as well. We had married young and I had always hoped that we would grow in that area.
> 
> By the time my affair began I felt completely disconnected from B1, and as far as I was concerned there wasn't really anything left for me to disconnect from, as I felt that he had abandoned me emotionally and physically long before. On D-day, May 27th, I felt no hope whatsoever that this marriage could be saved.... nor did I truly have any desire to save it. The only question would be how long it would take for us to legally dissolve a marriage that involved 5 children, a special needs child, one minor child, and a lot more debts than assets, etc. There would be no end to this marriage any time soon. B1 and I talked and talked.... for hours, days, weeks, now months. We hadn't communicated like this in years. My betrayed spouse (BS) found himself in the unfortunate position of comforting me as I went through the (then) gut-wrenching pain of withdrawal from my former AP. I found myself comforting him as he suffered through the gut-wrenching pain of betrayal (by me.) It hurt me to see him in so much pain, then, I began to feel guilty because I was the cause of his pain. He comforted me, I comforted him..... we were all that we had in the world as we began going through the necessary myriad of emotions of anger, bitterness, resentment, despair, sheer devastation. We found ourselves untangling all of the lies, deceit, betrayal, unresolved hurts from the past.... everything, all of it. I don't know if our situation is unique or if it is common. What I do know is that, during this time, B1 and I both began being honest.... brutally honest. Our MC didn't even recommend this level of honesty. Honest about my affair, honest about both of our failures in our marriage prior to my affair, honest about what we were and still are feeling. The maturity, the growth, the passion, everything that I had always hoped for, longed for, and more..... it began to evolve within both of us during this time. We have both grown and changed and matured so much in the last 3 1/2 months. B1 truly is my partner, my very best friend, my children's father, my lover, my husband..... my 'til death do us part, he is the man who holds my heart. We are stronger this week than we were last week and two weeks before that, a month before that. I can't wait to see where we are in 6 months, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years. Do I expect bumps along the way?.... pretty much every day..... But, I no longer fear these bumps like I did just a few days ago, I no longer think they are setbacks, I recently realized that these bumps are growing pains, learning opportunities, a chance to grow even closer, more intimate.....
> 
> I know that some people won't understand this, maybe some won't believe me, but I know that B1 and I will not only survive infidelity we will thrive, we will have a better marriage than we ever dreamed of having before..... NOT because of my infidelity, but because of what we learned about ourselves and one another in light of my infidelity.
> 
> 
> 
> Very well said EI.
> 
> I hope you and B1 have lots and lots of grandkids and lots and lots of great grandkids --- so that one day a long time from now, you can both smile at each other and say "We made it through this journey together -- the journey of life."
Click to expand...


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Empty Inside said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very well said EI.
> 
> I hope you and B1 have lots and lots of grandkids and lots and lots of great grandkids --- so that one day a long time from now, you can both smile at each other and say "We made it through this journey together -- the journey of life."
> 
> 
> 
> Damn,she did a real good job there didnt she,almost made me cry...almost
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Acabado

calvin said:


> jh52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Damn,she did a real good job there didnt she,almost made me cry...almost
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Me too.
Click to expand...


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> Very well said EI.
> 
> I hope you and B1 have lots and lots of grandkids and lots and lots of great grandkids --- so that one day a long time from now, you can both smile at each other and say "We made it through this journey together -- the journey of life."


Thank you, jh, lots and lots of grandkids, I hope so, too!



calvin said:


> Damn,she did a real good job there didnt she,almost made me cry...almost
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Acabado said:


> Me too.


Oh, c'mon, you two, I can hear you snifflin' from here!


----------



## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

images, thoughts and movies...Oh $hit

Really been struggleing lately with images, thoughts and movies, Don't even know why but it's been almost as bad as Dday at some moments.
The 3mo. mark for Dday#2 was yesterday but I don't think that had anything to do with it. I was struggling before then. We have, thankfully, been able to work through these events or bumps as I will call them.

The hurt just seems so raw again sometimes, not always, just sometimes. The physical part is half of the problem but the emotional part of their A is now bothering me some too. 

Oh well, One hour...one day at a time..


----------



## warlock07

Any reason for the triggers ?


----------



## cpacan

betrayed1 said:


> images, thoughts and movies...Oh $hit
> 
> Really been struggleing lately with images, thoughts and movies, Don't even know why but it's been almost as bad as Dday at some moments.
> The 3mo. mark for Dday#2 was yesterday but I don't think that had anything to do with it. I was struggling before then. We have, thankfully, been able to work through these events or bumps as I will call them.
> 
> The hurt just seems so raw again sometimes, not always, just sometimes. The physical part is half of the problem but the emotional part of their A is now bothering me some too.
> 
> Oh well, One hour...one day at a time..


B1; I wouldn't expect them to fade within 3 months past DD. From my own experience and from what I have heard from others, 8-12 months to get mind movies under control seems more "normal". 

I still have them (17 months), bot they are somehow just a part of my regular thoughts and can be put away whenever they appear.

So, you're right, one day at a time, starting with one hour. Keep walking.


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> Any reason for the triggers ?


Well, basically everything....she sneezed yesterday and it was a trigger because she makes a certain noise that sounds like another noise when we are making love, then I thought....WOW he, the xOM, heard that too, I lost it jus tlost it. The pain was unbearable.

I will just put it out there....To be honest, I am feeling insecure right now. EI is doing everything she can to make me secure, make me feel special, loved etc. And it works, she can calm me and sooth me until the next trigger.


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> Well, basically everything....she sneezed yesterday and it was a trigger because she makes a certain noise that sounds like another noise when we are making love, then I thought....*WOW he, the xOM, heard that too*, I lost it jus tlost it. The pain was unbearable.
> 
> I will just put it out there....To be honest, I am feeling insecure right now. EI is doing everything she can to make me secure, make me feel special, loved etc. And it works, she can calm me and sooth me until the next trigger.


Regarding the bolded part: Totally understand!! See that's one of my biggest issues with all this sh-t. I KNOW what Regret looks like, sounds like, reacts like during sex.

So does he.

It's extremely difficult to deal with that sometimes. Stay the course B1. And breathe.


----------



## Badblood

Betrayed 1 and Someday Dig. I must post to you, that even though we have had issues, how deeply I feel for the pain both of you are experiencing. When I contemplated R, with my Ex, this was one of the major issues (perhaps THE major issue) that I doubted if I could overcome.


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> Well, basically everything....she sneezed yesterday and it was a trigger because she makes a certain noise that sounds like another noise when we are making love.


Beeeeeee111111111111............. Noises are private.... and I don't make sneezing noises when we make love..... but, if I do, well, that's gonna be a problem, 'cuz..... it's allergy season!  

Love you <3


----------



## warlock07

EI, interesting post you made about OM in Exsquid's thread. b1- Trigger warning




> I'm not sure why I feel the need to note the similarities, but it does give me reason to pause, even wonder, if there was a reason that she and I both chose men who were so, obviously, emotionally, unavailable. My former AP gave me "just enough" emotional involvement to keep me hanging on, but never enough to feel anything less than anxious and insecure all of the time. When I wanted to talk about my/his/our "feelings" he refused to "have that circular conversation, again." He said that he didn't want to encourage me because I was a married woman and he felt guilty. He didn't want to bear any of the responsibility for the choices that I made regarding my marriage. It "compromised his integrity." Yes, I am shaking my head, at myself, as I type this because I can clearly see in, black and white, what I refused to acknowledge in my heart during the affair. He never seemed as burdened about the "encouragement" that the physical aspect of our relationship might give me.


----------



## CantSitStill

I have a friend that came over today, she complained that I never come by or call and I told her we are still struggling with our R. She doesn't get it. She said "it was alsmost a year ago that you were talking to OM, he needs to get over it!" uggg it is so hard to explain to people. I tried to explain how I said hurtful things to Calvin but she just don't get it. I even tried explaining triggers and reminders of it but still she don't get it. She finds this abnormal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

CSS...no one, ever...will ever understand the enormity of an affair on not only the marriage/relationship, but the devastating effect it has on the betrayed one. I say this not to hurt any wayward's feelings, especially if they've put the hard work in on reconciliation, but I say it as a reality check. Unless they've been in the shoes of a couple who has suffered any kind of affair, they are unequivocally clueless. 

It's like trying to explain string theory to someone who has no concept of quantum mechanics and general relativity.


----------



## CantSitStill

evidently you must be right, it's just aggrevating that they don't see or realise how hard it is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Feeling better now...had a rough morning. Thanks to all those who responded in PM's and emails...it truly helped me. 

I came home and EI was waiting with hugs and kisses and some very kind words. Then she talked to me about it all and made a lot of sense. She knows what she said, some of it was tough, some was and eye opener, but overall she got my attention like only she can. She made some things VERY clear and really helped me. 

She then went off the beaten path and told me what she needed from me and that really got my attention. EI NEEDS ME TOO, she needs a strong man, a strong father, a strong husband, I have to break this hold this xOM has on my mind. EI needs a strong, confident focused husband, not a broken one. Time to put my big boy pants on and focus on us and our future.

I hope Dig doesn't mind me sharing something he shared with me this morning:

_"it's in the past and if I'm gonna move forward I can't keep looking back at it. Kind of like driving a car. Even on a straight road, how often do we look in the rearview mirror? Well, yes...we glance at it now and then, but there's no way we can drive down that road in a straight line if all we do is look in that f'ng rearview."_

Nuff' said


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> CSS...no one, ever...will ever understand the enormity of an affair on not only the marriage/relationship, but the devastating effect it has on the betrayed one. I say this not to hurt any wayward's feelings, especially if they've put the hard work in on reconciliation, but I say it as a reality check. Unless they've been in the shoes of a couple who has suffered any kind of affair, they are unequivocally clueless.
> 
> It's like trying to explain string theory to someone who has no concept of quantum mechanics and general relativity.


Yep,we started R seven months ago when I let CSS back.Nothing physical happened except a few hug and a few quick kisses,the I loves yous between them hurt like hell.
Our neighbor is a really nice lady and a close friend of CSS,she said a few months ago I should be over it.I dont get it.I hope she never has to find out.
Dont think she'd like it if her husband did it and then his AP started calling her for four months talking smack and telling her some vile lies.
Why dont some people get it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Feeling better now...had a rough morning. Thanks to all those who responded in PM's and emails...it truly helped me.
> 
> I came home and EI was waiting with hugs and kisses and some very kind words. Then she talked to me about it all and made a lot of sense. She knows what she said, some of it was tough, some was and eye opener, but overall she got my attention like only she can. She made some things VERY clear and really helped me.
> 
> She then went off the beaten path and told me what she needed from me and that really got my attention. EI NEEDS ME TOO, she needs a strong man, a strong father, a strong husband, I have to break this hold this xOM has on my mind. EI needs a strong, confident focused husband, not a broken one. Time to put my big boy pants on and focus on us and our future.
> 
> I hope Dig doesn't mind me sharing something he shared with me this morning:
> 
> _"it's in the past and if I'm gonna move forward I can't keep looking back at it. Kind of like driving a car. Even on a straight road, how often do we look in the rearview mirror? Well, yes...we glance at it now and then, but there's no way we can drive down that road in a straight line if all we do is look in that f'ng rearview."_
> 
> Nuff' said


Hear you loud and clear B1.
Yup,our wives need us.Its so damn hard to get POSOM out of my mind,I think a lot of it has to do with his taunting over the phone.He also played CSS and I want revenge bad.
The good thing is that after seven months of R,he is leaving my head,I'm making him pack it up and go.I have more important things going on right now.Time really does help.
Now if and when I run into him,he will pay for what he said about CSS and my kids and the threats he mad.
Hang in there B1,you have come a lot further than you think you have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> Why dont some people get it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because they have never lived it. 

It is one of those things, that you can't really grasp until you experience first hand.
It is just like veterans of a war. How can any of us hope to understand what they think or feel? We can't! Sure, we can watch Band of Brothers or play a video game, but we can never know exactly what they feel. Because it is something we ourselves can not directly experience. 
And once you do experience it, you realize how harder, different, and worse it is. It is no longer something you are watching, but something you are living. And suddenly it takes a very different meaning. 

And to everyone on the outside, it seems like you are doing something wrong. Everyone that has never experienced it thinks you are doing it wrong in one way or another. 

Ignore them. Until they have experiened it, they have no room or right to critique you.


----------



## EI

_B1._............ I love you! <3

_Calvin & CSS_........ Happy 21st Anniversary!

_Dig_......... thanks for helping B1 _dig_ himself out of a hole this morning!

_Almost Recovered_............. thanks for helping B1 get through a difficult day. I think he has _almost recovered_!

EI thinks she's funny!  LOL

Going to cuddle with B1 now. Best time of the day.... first time since Monday night....... for cuddle time that is..... we did fit in a quickie yesterday and today isn't over, yet! 

_ttyl...................._


----------



## B1

Morning all...
Had an awesome evening yesterday, me and EI sat on the couch, laughed, joked and really enjoyed our time, no talk about that A.

I had the xOM out of my head for a little while, except he was in it in my dreams last night of all things Ugg....I dreamed I was having mind movies and was fighting them. But, hey, I was winning the battle which is a good thing.

Heading out now to do a photo shoot with my grandson at a local park. Can't wait, should be fun, and challenging.


----------



## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> Morning all...
> Had an awesome evening yesterday, me and EI sat on the couch, laughed, joked and really enjoyed our time, no talk about that A.
> 
> I had the xOM out of my head for a little while, except he was in it in my dreams last night of all things Ugg....I dreamed I was having mind movies and was fighting them. But, hey, I was winning the battle which is a good thing.
> 
> Heading out now to do a photo shoot with my grandson at a local park. Can't wait, should be fun, and challenging.


So glad to hear you two had a good evening together. Calvin and I also did, we finally went out. It seems like it's been awhile and it was nice just talking. Love our intense talks, we feel so connected and in tune with eachother  As for dreams, I can't figure out why but last night I had a dream my truck got stolen and I've been having the same dream now for the past few months. Have had this dream about 3 times now. It's weird. Hope you had a good time with your grandson 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## donders

CantSitStill said:


> As for dreams, I can't figure out why but last night I had a dream my truck got stolen and I've been having the same dream now for the past few months. Have had this dream about 3 times now. It's weird.


Sounds like an anxiety dream caused by guilt.

I've followed your story, have you told Calvin everything?

If not those demons will never rest until you come completely clean with him about the missing details of the "EA". If I'm off base then please accept my apologies.


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh he knows it all. I told him everything and answered all of his questions honestly even tho I knew it would hurt him but he asked for the truth and he got it and we are dealing with the betrayal ....I think it's a fear of losing Calvin maybe? or that I almost lost him..don't know if it means anything or not but it is weird.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Well I do remember soon after Calvin and him had words, I told Calvin.."if you go after him what if he does something to us or our property" soo possibly it's a fear of the OM, the jerk did say alot of crap, he has a mouth on him yet I think he's also afraid of Calvin. Afraid to get face to face with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Donders, I've seen your comments on various threads. The one consistency in all of them is that they are usually controversial, inflammatory and appear to be posted for the sole purpose of stirring up trouble.

Just today I read this comment of yours on the *"Disagreements on TAM" thread: "I've never been cheated on but I give advice all the time in the infidelity section. I think my posts are better than those by lots of betrayed spouses, many of whom are biased, angry, and project their anger towards others going through the same thing, and who have tried unsuccessfully to reconcile and finally just threw in the towel. 

Just because someone has been cheated on doesn't mean they're some sort of "infidelity expert" who is more qualified to give advice than someone who has never been betrayed in such a manner."*

My guess is that those individuals who truly are "Coping with Infidelity" would vehemently disagree with you.

Everyone is welcome to post on this thread. I simply ask that you proceed with caution being mindful of the sensitive nature of the subject matter.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I just use the ignore feature


----------



## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> I just use the ignore feature


That, too! :iagree:


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> Donders, I've seen your comments on various threads. The one consistency in all of them is that they are usually controversial, inflammatory and appear to be posted for the sole purpose of stirring up trouble.
> 
> Just today I read this comment of yours on the *"Disagreements on TAM" thread: "I've never been cheated on but I give advice all the time in the infidelity section. I think my posts are better than those by lots of betrayed spouses, many of whom are biased, angry, and project their anger towards others going through the same thing, and who have tried unsuccessfully to reconcile and finally just threw in the towel.
> 
> Just because someone has been cheated on doesn't mean they're some sort of "infidelity expert" who is more qualified to give advice than someone who has never been betrayed in such a manner."*
> 
> My guess is that those individuals who truly are "Coping with Infidelity" would vehemently disagree with you.
> 
> Everyone is welcome to post on this thread. I simply ask that you proceed with caution being mindful of the sensitive nature of the subject matter.


Well...not to be an a$$, which I can be, I find that using the IGNORE feature is worthwhile. Why would I listen to someone who is not only divorced but has never been betrayed trying to give me advice on reconciliation? Nope. Iggy Pop!


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> I have a friend that came over today, she complained that I never come by or call and I told her we are still struggling with our R. She doesn't get it. She said "it was alsmost a year ago that you were talking to OM, he needs to get over it!" uggg it is so hard to explain to people. I tried to explain how I said hurtful things to Calvin but she just don't get it. I even tried explaining triggers and reminders of it but still she don't get it. She finds this abnormal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What your friend said looked like words in the English language, but I can't see that they actually make any sense. Oh. Maybe they would have made sense to me, before I was in the position of a former betrayed spouse. Then, _*snap!*_ as if by magic, those words have no meaning.


----------



## calvin

CSS started talking th OM a in mid October,she stopped about seven months ago,thats seems like awhile but for me its still fairly fresh.
That couple with the things she said to me and telling him she loved him really hit me hard.
He would have used her,got what he could and then moved on,makes me sick.
One of his ex friends asked him why he goes for married woman,he said he get what he wants and screw it let their husbands deal with them.
His friend also told me that he was going to run into a H one day that would go after him,that would be me. I dont scare easy.
I still hurt but not as bad.The effects of her EA are with me every day,no vacation this year and still trying to finacially recover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

A first yesterday....We got through a whole day yesterday without talking about the A. 

We had family over and it was a good day. Only had to fight mind movies at night, once I was in bed. I conquered them last night, barely. Let's see what today holds....

EI and our special needs son were both sick yesterday too, REAL sick. Hopefully today is a better day in regards to that.

Reconciliation is learning that when you have all the details that satisfy you and you have talked about every aspect of the affair for months on end, it's time to BEGIN letting it go. Now, I'm not saying get over it, I'm saying perhaps it's time to primarily focus on tomorrow, your future, your marriage today. It's time to remove the AP from your marriage and it's time to stop making your spouse re-live those detailed moments of the A over and over. 

I know, easier said then done...but I am now trying


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> CSS started talking th OM a in mid October,she stopped about seven months ago,thats seems like awhile but for me its still fairly fresh.
> That couple with the things she said to me and telling him she loved him really hit me hard.
> He would have used her,got what he could and then moved on,makes me sick.
> One of his ex friends asked him why he goes for married woman,he said he get what he wants and screw it let their husbands deal with them.
> His friend also told me that he was going to run into a H one day that would go after him,that would be me. I dont scare easy.
> I still hurt but not as bad.The effects of her EA are with me every day,no vacation this year and still trying to finacially recover.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang in their Calvin. It actually sounds like you are doing so much better. 

I really hope you don't ever run into that man, I would hate for you to get into legal trouble over him. If you ever do, you will just have to tell yourself he's not worth it, and he's not.

No vacation for us either


----------



## calvin

It is getting better slowy,I dont ask too manyu questions anymore I pretty much have all the answers.
The crap he said about my family still gets to me and knowing that he is in the area makes me day dream about what I'm going to do to him.
Why didnt he just slither away like most POSOMen?
One thing that is really helping is my counselor asking me if I really want to forgive CSS,yes I do!!
Every time I start feeling down or thinks about the affair I ask myself this question over and over,it helps me a lot.The answer is always the same...yes.
How you doing today b1?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

So far so good..hope to get through another day without to much drama over the A. EI is up and feeling better too which is a great thing.

Me and my counselor have talked about forgiving also, I absolutely want to. Not a bad thing to do, ask yourself if your willing to forgive when things get dark. Since I want to, then it very well may help me also


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> CSS started talking th OM a in mid October,she stopped about seven months ago,thats seems like awhile but for me its still fairly fresh.
> That couple with the things she said to me and telling him she loved him really hit me hard.
> He would have used her,got what he could and then moved on,makes me sick.
> One of his ex friends asked him why he goes for married woman,he said he get what he wants and screw it let their husbands deal with them.
> *His friend also told me that he was going to run into a H one day that would go after him*,that would be me. I dont scare easy.
> I still hurt but not as bad.The effects of her EA are with me every day,no vacation this year and still trying to finacially recover.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should introduce me to him! :FIREdevil:

And you should also start getting on really good terms with a detective in your local police force that way instead of having me thrown in jail, your buddy will just let me pay some fines.  but I might need a loan to pay those fines, because I am still in the hole... 

Always pays to be nice to the kids that want to be policemen and women growing up.


----------



## calvin

We actually have a detective that lives across the street
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> It is getting better slowy,I dont ask too manyu questions anymore I pretty much have all the answers.
> The crap he said about my family still gets to me and knowing that he is in the area makes me day dream about what I'm going to do to him.
> Why didnt he just slither away like most POSOMen?
> One thing that is really helping is my counselor asking me if I really want to forgive CSS,yes I do!!
> Every time I start feeling down or thinks about the affair I ask myself this question over and over,it helps me a lot.The answer is always the same...yes.
> How you doing today b1?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here is the reason why, Calvin! It's because you and CSS had a real bona fide POSOM!

Most POSOM are not really bad people. They just fall in love with the wrong woman. Normally that wrong woman would just say: "Thanks, but I am married, please respect my boundaries."

However, sometimes that wrong woman is too drunk, or too emotionally vulnerable to be able to understand what is happening until it is too late to realise they should have said "no" when it first started.

When that POSOM is exposed he realises he has acted like a heel and does slink away.

CSS' POSOM is a real bad person who gets off on this kind of stuff.


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Here is the reason why, Calvin! It's because you and CSS had a real bona fide POSOM!
> 
> Most POSOM are not really bad people. They just fall in love with the wrong woman. Normally that wrong woman would just say: "Thanks, but I am married, please respect my boundaries."
> 
> However, sometimes that wrong woman is too drunk, or too emotionally vulnerable to be able to understand what is happening until it is too late to realise they should have said "no" when it first started.
> 
> When that POSOM is exposed he realises he has acted like a heel and does slink away.
> 
> CSS' POSOM is a real bad person who gets off on this kind of stuff.


Yep M&M, that bastard loved to talk crap and threaten my family and me,even told me he was going to keep talking to her and I couldnt do nothing about it.
Whats wrong with some people,why would'nt he say it to my face?
How ya doing M&M?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> Whats wrong with some people,why would'nt he say it to my face?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because he needed a way to prod you on, but not get in too deep. 

He loves knowing he can torture you. But, BUT, he can't do it in a way that will allow you to reach out to him (physically) because he knows you will! 
It is like the classroom bully, that is only tough when the teacher is around. He will only act tough as long as he knows he doesn't have to back ANY of it up because there is an authority to make sure nothing goes to far.

But when it finally does come to backing up what you say, he'll probably sh!t his pants! He'll want to run!


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Yep M&M, that bastard loved to talk crap and threaten my family and me,even told me he was going to keep talking to her and I couldnt do nothing about it.
> Whats wrong with some people,why would'nt he say it to my face?
> How ya doing M&M?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He might be mentally ill. And a coward.

Me? I am doing well. My wife is doing OK, too. Well, besides her hip being almost too hot to touch last night, due to her arthritis being in a very bad phase. The new tablets have worked but not as well as we'd hoped.


----------



## calvin

He has ran twice after he set up the fight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Well Badblood, way back I thought our marriage was over also, so like an idiot I sought out my ex bf from when I was a teen. I also put all the blame on Calvin. Yes I have learned alot since then and I am still learning but do not think I have done everything right. I am doing all I can and so are Empty and Regret.. Just my opinion
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> He has ran twice after he set up the fight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know what that means?
You are doing much to resistance exercises in the gym! You need to do some cardio so you can catch him! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## CantSitStill

Also I don't think Calvin is triggering any less than Dig or B1, I thought he's been triggering more than then. I mean a few weeks ago he was thinking he wanted a seperation because he felt he couldn't handle it anymore. Hmm Badblood? Have you ever been to our thread? The Ups and downs in private section?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

CantSitStill said:


> Also I don't think Calvin is triggering any less than Dig or B1, I thought he's been triggering more than then. I mean a few weeks ago he was thinking he wanted a seperation because he felt he couldn't handle it anymore. Hmm Badblood? Have you ever been to our thread? The Ups and downs in private section?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Badblood left the site. He started a thread the other day saying good-bye.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

MattMatt said:


> Here is the reason why, Calvin! It's because you and CSS had a real bona fide POSOM!
> 
> Most POSOM are not really bad people. They just fall in love with the wrong woman. Normally that wrong woman would just say: "Thanks, but I am married, please respect my boundaries."
> 
> However, sometimes that wrong woman is too drunk, or too emotionally vulnerable to be able to understand what is happening until it is too late to realise they should have said "no" when it first started.
> 
> *When that POSOM is exposed he realises he has acted like a heel and does slink away.*
> 
> CSS' POSOM is a real bad person who gets off on this kind of stuff.


Exactly what the xOM did in my situation, slunk back into his hole. I could only hope his conscience is eating away at him, This would only be a small consolation for what he did to my life and my heart and my children's lives and their hearts. 

He gets to go back to NORMAL life, no pain, no hurt, no tears, no crying yourself to sleep, no missing work, no sickening mind movies, no suffering, no arguing, no fear, no insecurities, no real change in daily life, no MC, no worries, no sick to your stomach with grief. Not much of anything changes for him, except Thursdays will be boring now.


----------



## calvin

I hope my POSOM is enjoying sleeping in the shop office. :- D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

This is a good thread for all of us to support eachother, help eachother along knowing we are not alone in this painful situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frank29

Calvin please do not get involved in scrapping it might give you great pleasure to give him a good whack/slap but if you do some damage to him you could do some jail time and cost you money and lets be honest you still have your good lady and long may it continue to be that way just wrap your self around her and be happy and content with your life and take care of each other


----------



## calvin

frank29 said:


> Calvin please do not get involved in scrapping it might give you great pleasure to give him a good whack/slap but if you do some damage to him you could do some jail time and cost you money and lets be honest you still have your good lady and long may it continue to be that way just wrap your self around her and be happy and content with your life and take care of each other


When you call me at work and say you are on yoir way to my house and tell me I owe you money cause you had to pay for my wife's abortion and then you start on my kids and keep that kind of crap up for four months all bets are off.
I will see him.God have mercy cause I wont.
No way around it,he will pay for his threats and he wont break up any more families like he's already done.
I like that he told his ex friend he needs to go to the police for protection.
I've gotten two calls from him in the last two weeks.He'll get what he's asking for,just a matter of time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> When you call me at work and say you are on yoir way to my house and tell me I owe you money cause you had to pay for my wife's abortion and then you start on my kids and keep that kind of crap up for four months all bets are off.
> I will see him.God have mercy cause I wont.
> No way around it,he will pay for his threats and he wont break up any more families like he's already done.
> I like that he told his ex friend he needs to go to the police for protection.
> I've gotten two calls from him in the last two weeks.He'll get what he's asking for,just a matter of time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But *NOT* from you, OK?[/SIZE

Why not? _Because your family need you outside of jail or not on death row_. 

Leave it to someone else. He will get his, and probably fairly soon. 

Leave him! He's not worth it! (I have always wanted to say that to someone. And now I have.) It's a cliché from a TV soap in the UK called Eastenders. Dolly can tell you all about it.:rofl:


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> When you call me at work and say you are on yoir way to my house and tell me I owe you money cause you had to pay for my wife's abortion and then you start on my kids and keep that kind of crap up for four months all bets are off.
> I will see him.God have mercy cause I wont.
> No way around it,he will pay for his threats and he wont break up any more families like he's already done.
> I like that he told his ex friend he needs to go to the police for protection.
> I've gotten two calls from him in the last two weeks.He'll get what he's asking for,just a matter of time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok I was joking before, but Calvin, you meet this guy, you are screwed! 
I am not saying you can't beat this guy into a pulp, or that you are weaker than him. 
This man is a POS! So, let's say you two actually do fight. Well...let's think this through. You down a protein shake and a Red Bull before you go. Adrenaline coursing through your viens, anger and rage blinding you! You can't wait to beat him down into hell!
What will he do to get ready for the fight? He packs a knife in his coat, or even a gun, and goes. 

Who's going to win?

And you may bring up, "You won and the OM had a knife." 
Well, yes, I did. I am also 6'2" and 210 lbs., with that mostly being thick muscle. And I didn't get out of that fight clean. Now, I don't know what you look like, but I have a feeling you probably aren't in your prime. No offense. 

Now, unless you got a Black Belt in Karate, or something like that, you won't win. 

But if its a gun, well, you aren't going to win. No doubt there. 
If the OM I faced had a gun, I would be dead. No doubt about it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes this guy said alot of bullcrap stuff. He's miserable and wants us to be miserable I guess. He is very very sick. He never talked filth like that with me. He acted shy around me..it was all a ploy, him waiting for me to make a move, what a disgusting manchild he is. Ha I even thought he was a gentleman for not trying to make any moves on me. Yes I know DUHH how dumb of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

We blocked his number from our phones, then he used another work cell phone and pestered Calvin. So glad he never called the house phone and only tried my cell once. If I ever run into him..as bad as I'd like to give him hell I will ignore him and if he pesters me I will call 911 or scream for help or quietly get security wherever I am. Why give him what he wants? He wants us to talk to him and I don't want or need any more drama. Ok I'm babbling again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

OK he's not worth a thought so I am done, We win by not giving him a thought, he's not worth it. Sooo I'm gonna make us some yummy lasagna today, have a few beers and watch football with the love of my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Juicer said:


> Ok I was joking before, but Calvin, you meet this guy, you are screwed!
> I am not saying you can't beat this guy into a pulp, or that you are weaker than him.
> This man is a POS! So, let's say you two actually do fight. Well...let's think this through. You down a protein shake and a Red Bull before you go. Adrenaline coursing through your viens, anger and rage blinding you! You can't wait to beat him down into hell!
> What will he do to get ready for the fight? He packs a knife in his coat, or even a gun, and goes.
> 
> Who's going to win?
> 
> And you may bring up, "You won and the OM had a knife."
> Well, yes, I did. I am also 6'2" and 210 lbs., with that mostly being thick muscle. And I didn't get out of that fight clean. Now, I don't know what you look like, but I have a feeling you probably aren't in your prime. No offense.
> 
> Now, unless you got a Black Belt in Karate, or something like that, you won't win.
> 
> But if its a gun, well, you aren't going to win. No doubt there.
> If the OM I faced had a gun, I would be dead. No doubt about it.


He's two years younger than me.He sleeps in the work truck all day.Me? Up at 4am six days week,I do 65 hours a week,being a steelworker is a physical job,I have endurance and can keep it up for a long time.CSS's 21 year old nephew cant beat me in arm wrestling or wrestling at all.
OM does have 3 inches on me but he's skinney and his health sucks,panick attacks,bad heart all that stuff.
He is evil. I've seen little guys beat the hell out of guys a lot bigger than them because they were highly motivated to do so.
No one has given me crap since my junior year in high school when I started hitting the weights.
I'm confident and not an idiot.He has a record,I dont.It might be next week I run into him or maybe a year but he will get his.
Dont know why I'm thinking about him so much today,need to get him out of my head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Its messed up thinking but I wish she would have "dated" him like she wanted to.
His mask would have come off and she would see what he was really like but then I would have never taken her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Calvin, you may get satisfaction out of beating his ass but, he will too. Why? Because he will know he still holds power over you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> Calvin, you may get satisfaction out of beating his ass but, he will too. Why? Because he will know he still holds power over you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey Pidge,
Welcome to the "Reconciliation" thread. Joe drops in, occasionally, too. About your comments above. I agree with you 100%. Calvin needs to forget that the xOM exists. I know that CSS would like to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> He's two years younger than me.He sleeps in the work truck all day.Me? Up at 4am six days week,I do 65 hours a week,being a steelworker is a physical job,I have endurance and can keep it up for a long time.CSS's 21 year old nephew cant beat me in arm wrestling or wrestling at all.
> OM does have 3 inches on me but he's skinney and his health sucks,panick attacks,bad heart all that stuff.
> He is evil. I've seen little guys beat the hell out of guys a lot bigger than them because they were highly motivated to do so.
> No one has given me crap since my junior year in high school when I started hitting the weights.
> I'm confident and not an idiot.He has a record,I dont.It might be next week I run into him or maybe a year but he will get his.
> Dont know why I'm thinking about him so much today,need to get him out of my head.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have a fight with the POSOM and you could get a record, too...


----------



## SomedayDig

Just a quick update on Regret and my reconciliation. 

Last week was a pretty good week. I'm in class again this week and next week, so it's good to have something to occupy my time. Admittedly, I have at times obsessed over the affair and spent too many hours reading TAM or escaping by watching television.

Friday, I had a physical with bloodwork and other stuff. Looks like I'm okay and even my cholesterol was only 118. But...and here's the big deal (for me at least), the doc gave me a prescription for Paxil to help me out. Now, I've never been one for meds. It's just the way I am, but I can honestly say that things were getting overwhelming for a time and I needed something to re-adjust my focus. 3 days in to using the stuff, and I am happy to report that I haven't found myself dwelling on the bad sh-t.

Now...if I can just get through the next 2 weeks of class, maybe - just maybe, I can do some yard work before winter!


----------



## frank29

Hi Somedig glad to hear that all is going well did you by chance have a PSA blood test when you went for your physical well worth doing if you have not already done it


----------



## SomedayDig

Yep...I'm 44 years young, so PSA was checked as well as the old poop check. OH...and the awesomeness of the glove and KY check.

All good!! 

Which is a big deal considering most of my family that has died has been from cancer. A HUGE emotional issue with me and a dreaded fear that I had when they did all the blood work! I'm relieved. Thanks!


----------



## calvin

Morning everyone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Hey, hey Calvin. Hope you have a good one. Our new kittens got into our daughter's room at 4am. She doesn't like to sleep with the door shut, so she went into our room. I came downstairs. Yuck! LOL

I'm gonna shoot straight with ya for a minute, Calvin and I hope I'm not outta line.

I want to take one of my many knives that I own and carry and jab the xOM pretty badly. Make him hurt for the sh-t that I've had to live for the last 6 months. But that's not reality.

Reality is that if I gave in to my horrible desires, I would be in prison for the rest of my life. Even a day spent in a cell on that f'er would be too much. Oh...I've even said that I'd spend a day or two in jail just to punch the living sh-t outta him. Then I wake up and realize that it just ain't worth it. Not a bit.

Now, he hasn't called or harassed me about this like what you're going through, so I have it easy comparatively. Only thing I can say is to mirror what you said in your post #991: Get him outta your head. You're the property manager there and you don't have to rent space to anyone you don't want to. Dude sounds like a scumbag and if I were you I would just laugh at his life and see him for the pathetic piece of sh-t that he is and KNOW you got it so much better.

Oh...and a felony ain't ever a good thing to have in life. This I know.


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Hey, hey Calvin. Hope you have a good one. Our new kittens got into our daughter's room at 4am. She doesn't like to sleep with the door shut, so she went into our room. I came downstairs. Yuck! LOL
> 
> I'm gonna shoot straight with ya for a minute, Calvin and I hope I'm not outta line.
> 
> I want to take one of my many knives that I own and carry and jab the xOM pretty badly. Make him hurt for the sh-t that I've had to live for the last 6 months. But that's not reality.
> 
> Reality is that if I gave in to my horrible desires, I would be in prison for the rest of my life. Even a day spent in a cell on that f'er would be too much. Oh...I've even said that I'd spend a day or two in jail just to punch the living sh-t outta him. Then I wake up and realize that it just ain't worth it. Not a bit.
> 
> Now, he hasn't called or harassed me about this like what you're going through, so I have it easy comparatively. Only thing I can say is to mirror what you said in your post #991: Get him outta your head. You're the property manager there and you don't have to rent space to anyone you don't want to. Dude sounds like a scumbag and if I were you I would just laugh at his life and see him for the pathetic piece of sh-t that he is and KNOW you got it so much better.
> 
> Oh...and a felony ain't ever a good thing to have in life. This I know.


Thanks Dig,believe me I hear what youre saying,most of the OM slither back under their rock,this jerk made a point of telling me my wife was his,always has been,always will be,yes he said that to.
I see him one the road once ever 6-8 weeks and I know one day ou paths will cross.
I dont know if I could look at him and just walk away,talk about hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kasler

Don't waste your life on him. No judge is gonna care about his record or your lack of one if hes on the ground bleeding and has to be rushed to the hospital.

Judges love cracking down on physical crimes, they're so clear cut and sends a message to anyone thinking its still the 90s.

Aggravated assault, thats 5-10 years.

Is he worth it?

Just walk away man. I actually did attack the OM of my ex fiance. Got a few punches in, was then tackled to the ground by a cop I didn't see nearby, cuffed, and thrown in the back of a cruiser. 

As soon as you're in the back of that car, you'll realize just how much you fked up. Or you'll realize it as soon as you're tased/tackled to the ground. I was only very lucky that I didn't go to prison for that.


----------



## SomedayDig

I had an 8 iron in my hands a month or two ago when I saw Regret's xOM at the golf course. Lucky for me, one of my league buddies saw what was going on and talked me down. Oddly enough (and good for me), he's a counselor and chatted with me for a few and totally disarmed what could have been disastrous! 

I held my head up and walked away. Which, if you knew me in real life, you would know how difficult that was. Let's just say I'm not "shy". I'm the nicest guy you'll ever meet. Unless it's in a bad situation.

Take the high road, brother. That dude's just a punk a$$ bitc*.


----------



## calvin

All I can say is that I will try my hardest to walk away from him.I hope he winds back up in prison
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frank29

Well done guys lots of good old TAM common sense make your girls happy that is enough to realy piss him off


----------



## EI

Good Morning Everyone!!!

*Dig*, I'm so glad that you had your checkup and that everything checked out. It's one of those things we dread so much and, yet, feel so much better when it's done. Speaking of the glove and the KY test...yuck*....., at least that only lasts a minute or so. I had my "lovely" mammogram earlier this year and, well, that lasts a lot longer. For some reason "they" (whoever "they" are) decided there was "something" of concern and it took 3 mammograms, a breast ultrasound, 4 different doctors, 3 visits, over a 30 day period to give me the "all clear." Aren't the 40's just fabulous???!!! 

*Calvin*, stay outta trouble and avoid the xOM! You *know* he isn't worth you getting arrested, costing your family money, blah, blah, blah...... try to forget that he ever existed. I know that isn't exactly gonna happen, but I know that CSS would love to forget about him, altogether. 

*B1, Calvin, Juicer, MattMatt, Frank29, Dig*, anyone else that I'm missing here...., I love the way that you guys look out for one another. You're an incredible bunch of men.

Sooooo, after a really rough week, last week, with our son recovering from surgery and me not feeling well, at all, today is a better day and I'm planning on having a wonderful week! You know what "they" say about the best laid plans!!!

I love you guys..... you, too CSS!

Take care,
EI


----------



## EI

*Diiiiiiiiig*, darn it! I wanted to make the 1000th post!!! I guess I'm gonna have to get up earlier next time..........  Grrrrr........  LOL


----------



## warlock07

Delete some of your older posts(7 of them) and you will be at 1000 posts . I am a genius.


----------



## SomedayDig

Sorry about that EI... 

Okay. Time to be an Alpha male and make the kids breakfast and pack their lunch before putting them on the bus while Regret is already at work.

LMAO!


----------



## EI

I love the way you think............ but, what could I possibly delete..... everything I say is sooooooooooooo important, Warlock???!!!! :scratchhead:  LOL

I've got an idea!!! Why don't you go back and delete some of your older posts when you were being really, really mean to me! 

*HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *

Just kiddin'......... sorta!!!


----------



## calvin

Oh man,Dig stole your thunder Empty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> I love the way you think............ but, what could I possibly delete..... everything I say is sooooooooooooo important, Warlock???!!!! :scratchhead:  LOL
> 
> I've got an idea!!! Why don't you go back and delete some of your older posts when you were being really, really mean to me!
> 
> *HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *
> 
> Just kiddin'......... sorta!!!


Oh yeah!! You have 169 posts. I just have measly 24(including this one). Stop being so greedy.


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Oh man,Dig stole your thunder Empty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_I know....... there goes my great week I had all planned out!!! Now, it's all ruined........ *everything*, ruined......_  LOL

Okay, *TAM*_ers_ gotta get busy now!!!


_B1, will you tell Dig never to take the 1000th post again....._


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Oh yeah!! You have 169 posts. I just have measly 24(including this one). Stop being so greedy.


_Did you count them???..................... :scratchhead:_

_You even complained about my emoticon usage in one of your comments to me.............. And, don't worry, I don't remember everything and I never hold grudges!   LOL_


----------



## calvin

You can have the 2000th Empty
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> You can have the 2000th Empty
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



*Damn straight........... Comment 2000 is mine!!! 
*


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> _Did you count them???..................... :scratchhead:_
> 
> _You even complained about my emoticon usage in one of your comments to me.............. And, don't worry, I don't remember everything and I never hold grudges!   LOL_


 You don't need to count them. They show up on the thread statistics.










Click on the number to the right ("1015" in the picture) to see who posted how many. Newbie.


----------



## B1

Man..at least a dozen posts on our thread before I even got out of bed this morning....Doctors,fights,1000 posts,KY jelly,thread lessons and more...OH MY.

Guess I need to get up earlier..... NOT


----------



## B1

EI came to me on the couch last night, sat down beside me and said, "I'm sorry!"
Just a plain ol' I'm sorry, and it meant SO much. Not that she hasn't said it
a hundred times, in person, texts, email etc. but I guess I still need reassurance
sometimes that she is really sorry. She went on to say she would give anything to take it
back, anything, and she cried in my arms still saying how sorry she is for it all.
Sorry that I am hurting, sorry she hurt the kids, sorry she did it...this went on
for at least 30 minutes. I know she is sorry but still as a BS I do need to still 
here it sometimes, Don't know why that is but it is. 

The pain is still so raw sometimes and I want to it to go away, but of course it won’t.
It wells up in me to the point I am about to explode sometimes. I have been working real hard
to NOT bring it up as much. It's not as easy thing to do either. So I was dwelling on it last night.
Alone on the couch I was thinking a lot about the A and certain aspects of it.

EI knows when I am dwelling on something, she knows me very well and she
can read my expressions, and she can even read my silence. I guess she knew I was dwelling last night, 
she knew I was silently hurting. So she came to me with those magic words and her
arms open wide.

This is reconciliation.


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> EI came to me on the couch last night, sat down beside me and said, "I'm sorry!"
> Just a plain ol' I'm sorry, and it meant SO much. Not that she hasn't said it
> a hundred times, in person, texts, email etc. but I guess I still need reassurance
> sometimes that she is really sorry. She went on to say she would give anything to take it
> back, anything, and she cried in my arms still saying how sorry she is for it all.
> Sorry that I am hurting, sorry she hurt the kids, sorry she did it...this went on
> for at least 30 minutes. I know she is sorry but still as a BS I do need to still
> here it sometimes, Don't know why that is but it is.
> 
> The pain is still so raw sometimes and I want to it to go away, but of course it won’t.
> It wells up in me to the point I am about to explode sometimes. I have been working real hard
> to NOT bring it up as much. It's not as easy thing to do either. So I was dwelling on it last night.
> Alone on the couch I was thinking a lot about the A and certain aspects of it.
> 
> EI knows when I am dwelling on something, she knows me very well and she
> can read my expressions, and she can even read my silence. I guess she knew I was dwelling last night,
> she knew I was silently hurting. So she came to me with those magic words and her
> arms open wide.
> 
> This is reconciliation.


I hear you B1,CSS has said she sorry quite a few times,it really helps.I wish she would tell me that more often.It just makes me feel better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> EI came to me on the couch last night, sat down beside me and said, "I'm sorry!"
> Just a plain ol' I'm sorry, and it meant SO much. Not that she hasn't said it
> a hundred times, in person, texts, email etc. but I guess I still need reassurance
> sometimes that she is really sorry. She went on to say she would give anything to take it
> back, anything, and she cried in my arms still saying how sorry she is for it all.
> Sorry that I am hurting, sorry she hurt the kids, sorry she did it...this went on
> for at least 30 minutes. I know she is sorry but still as a BS I do need to still
> here it sometimes, Don't know why that is but it is.
> 
> The pain is still so raw sometimes and I want to it to go away, but of course it won’t.
> It wells up in me to the point I am about to explode sometimes. I have been working real hard
> to NOT bring it up as much. It's not as easy thing to do either. So I was dwelling on it last night.
> Alone on the couch I was thinking a lot about the A and certain aspects of it.
> 
> EI knows when I am dwelling on something, she knows me very well and she
> can read my expressions, and she can even read my silence. I guess she knew I was dwelling last night,
> she knew I was silently hurting. So she came to me with those magic words and her
> arms open wide.
> 
> This is reconciliation.


Hey B1 -- the good thing about this thread -- if there can be a good thing -- is that all the WS know what they done -- more importantly -- have a good understanding why they did it -- but most importantly --- will never ever cross or go near that line again. EI, CSS and Regret all realize just how close they came to blowing up their families -- and forever having that family unit changed --- now they work on themselves everyday and are greatful to have that 2nd chance -- that some people never get.


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> I hear you B1,CSS has said she sorry quite a few times,it really helps.I wish she would tell me that more often.It just makes me feel better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin -- you need to tell her that she needs to say I am sorry more often as well. You need to tell her that this helps you.


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Calvin -- you need to tell her that she needs to say I am sorry more often as well. You need to t


I have told her this,its sporatic at best.She told me saying sorry isnt good enough,well it helps me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I have told her this,its sporatic at best.She told me saying sorry isnt good enough,well it helps me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I know, Calvin, B1 says the same thing. He needs me to say it more often, on my own, without him asking. But, like CSS, I feel like saying "I'm sorry," seems like so little for something so horrible. So, I try to "show" him how I feel. But, sometimes, I can see his struggle, it's visible, especially during times that a lot of people (our children and extended family) are around and he can't pull me away to get that extra reassurance that he's needing. When I see it, and people are around, I try to make eye contact, give him that "knowing glance, just whisper the words "I love you," squeeze his hand, anything. As soon as the opportunity arises, I go to him and we talk. But, again, "I'm sorry," just doesn't seem to be enough. Although, it usually brings B1 to tears.... I think they are "healing" tears. I hope so.


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> I know, Calvin, B1 says the same thing. He needs me to say it more often, on my own, without him asking. But, like CSS, I feel like saying "I'm sorry," seems like so little for something so horrible. So, I try to "show" him how I feel. But, sometimes, I can see his struggle, it's visible, especially during times that a lot of people (our children and extended family) are around and he can't pull me away to get that extra reassurance that he's needing. When I see it, and people are around, I try to make eye contact, give him that "knowing glance, just whisper the words "I love you," squeeze his hand, anything. As soon as the opportunity arises, I go to him and we talk. But, again, "I'm sorry," just doesn't seem to be enough. Although, it usually brings B1 to tears.... I think they are "healing" tears. I hope so.


EI, CSS and Regret -- you have to listen to B1, Calvin and Dig -- and if saying I am sorry everyday to them helps them get through the day -- then you should just say it. The problem is the balance of trying to get through the day without thinking about things -- but since EI and Regret are just a few months out -- and CSS is a little farther out -- you have to use your own judgement. My thinking may be to over say I am sorry -- than not saying I am sorry enough. Those 3 little words can mean so much at certain times.


----------



## calvin

Have no Idea how just those three little words help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

calvin said:


> Have no Idea how just those three little words help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Let's do anal?"


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> I had an 8 iron in my hands a month or two ago when I saw Regret's xOM at the golf course. Lucky for me, one of my league buddies saw what was going on and talked me down. Oddly enough (and good for me), he's a counselor and chatted with me for a few and totally disarmed what could have been disastrous!
> 
> I held my head up and walked away. Which, if you knew me in real life, you would know how difficult that was. Let's just say I'm not "shy". I'm the nicest guy you'll ever meet. Unless it's in a bad situation.
> 
> Take the high road, brother. That dude's just a punk a$$ bitc*.


FYI.....A hybrid 2i would have done more damage.


----------



## calvin

Almostrecovered said:


> "Let's do anal?"


We'll ...yeah,that is deffinately better!! :-o
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Almostrecovered said:


> "Let's do anal?"


Not on taco night.


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> Have no Idea how just those three little words help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought that I say I'm sorry alot, well now I'm aware that I can never say it enough so will more often.. sorry honey for not saying sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I thought that I say I'm sorry alot, well now I'm aware that I can never say it enough so will more often.. sorry honey for not saying sorry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like AR's three little words better )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

jh52 said:


> Hey B1 -- the good thing about this thread -- if there can be a good thing -- is that all the WS know what they done -- more importantly -- have a good understanding why they did it -- but most importantly --- will never ever cross or go near that line again. EI, CSS and Regret all realize just how close they came to blowing up their families -- and forever having that family unit changed --- now they work on themselves everyday and are greatful to have that 2nd chance -- that some people never get.


So true, very very true in my case. And like Empty said, I felt saying sorry just wasn't enough. Still learning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> FYI.....A hybrid 2i would have done more damage.


I use a hybrid 3i...but I am prone to pull hooking it and I wanted to make sure it was a good solid 8 iron. More loft.


----------



## MattMatt

Almostrecovered said:


> "Let's do anal?"


That's so naughty!

BTW, an anagram of that is "Also Dental!":rofl:


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> I use a hybrid 3i...but I am prone to pull hooking it and I wanted to make sure it was a good solid 8 iron. More loft.


I have a slice...errr I mean power fade. :rofl:


----------



## Juicer

Dig, out of curiosity, was this before of after my post to you?

Because I am curious:
Do you want an active police file?

Because I got one! 
I've got charges for, assaulting a police officer in there two times, resisting arrest, and disturbing the peace. And that I passed test for anabolics. And probably one or two more charges. I don't remember them all. 

So what do you think that says to any future employers? Because if I was hiring, I know what it would say to me. 

So what would your active police file say?
Killed a man with an 8 iron. 
That'll get you noticed!


----------



## SomedayDig

Nah, this happened back in July. First and only time I've ever seen the guy except for the one time I met him 3 years ago.

I was a little touchy.


----------



## calvin

Juicer said:


> Dig, out of curiosity, was this before of after my post to you?
> 
> Because I am curious:
> Do you want an active police file?
> 
> Because I got one!
> I've got charges for, assaulting a police officer in there two times, resisting arrest, and disturbing the peace. And that I passed test for anabolics. And probably one or two more charges. I don't remember them all.
> 
> So what do you think that says to any future employers? Because if I was hiring, I know what it would say to me.
> 
> So what would your active police file say?
> Killed a man with an 8 iron.
> That'll get you noticed!


Get it,got it....good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> Get it,got it....good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, the more I beat it into you guys (figuratively, of course) the less likely you'll make the same mistake. 

So someday when you're walking down the street, and come across your OM, your next post won't be from jail.


----------



## Wazza

Particularly in Calvin's case. Haven't followed closely for a while but what if that is exactly what posom is trying to do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Morning everyone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Wazza said:


> Particularly in Calvin's case. Haven't followed closely for a while but what if that is exactly what posom is trying to do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He started up his phone calls again under a blocked number,I got two of them in the last couple weeks,he laughs and hangs up.
If I dont pick up then nothing,no voice mail.
So now if I dont recognize the number I dont answer.
I am glad his life sucks right now,exposing him to his gf,work and friends really did a number on him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Good Morning Everyone...........................

_17,636 days down................... _

I'm tired..... I went to bed before 11:00 p.m. last night.... still tired


----------



## EI

Wazza said:


> Particularly in Calvin's case. Haven't followed closely for a while but what if that is exactly what posom is trying to do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey Wazza, we've missed you on this thread!


----------



## B1

Morning all, lil cranky this morning and I was yesterday too come to think about it?

Feeling a little tense and wound up. Just took my T-injection Sunday starting to wonder if it's that?


----------



## Wazza

Empty Inside said:


> Hey Wazza, we've missed you on this thread!


Why thank you miss.

I've missed the lingerie dances on the back deck, too 

(I think that was this thread....otherwise this could be very embarrassing.)


----------



## SomedayDig

Wazza...that was a Friday night and Regret had gotten me really drunk.


----------



## Wazza

SomedayDig said:


> Wazza...that was a Friday night and Regret had gotten me really drunk.


Hmmm...you didn't look drunk in the photos she sent me......


----------



## SomedayDig

LMAO Wazza!!!

:rofl::rofl:


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Wazza...that was a Friday night and Regret had gotten me really drunk.


Dig, you already stole my thunder with the 1,000th post, you DO NOT get credit for the lingerie dance on the deck. That goes to ME...... LOL ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Yeah...sorry 'bout that EI.

Oh, hey!! B1, sorry I didn't respond to your email, man. I've been busy and I literally just thought about it right now. I'll get back to you. This classroom stuff is kicking my butt.


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> Yeah...sorry 'bout that EI.
> 
> Oh, hey!! B1, sorry I didn't respond to your email, man. I've been busy and I literally just thought about it right now. I'll get back to you. This classroom stuff is kicking my butt.


Dig...we need to set up a TAM golf outing. I haven't been since D-day. Got the itch.


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Dig...we need to set up a TAM golf outing. I haven't been since D-day. Got the itch.


Hmmm...hmmm...I'm thinking a good round of golf cutting up and whatnot would be a fun thing!


----------



## calvin

Morning everyone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Morning everyone
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good morning All.

EI may or may not be on here today she has a FULL plate. A lot going on for her today, A LOT, Not sure hows she going to do it all.

We had a good MC session yesterday. We are going to start limiting our talk time about the affair. We are going to try to limit it to 15 minutes a day. I hope I can do this, it would be good for EI and me. I am still allowing the xOM way too much time in our marriage. 

After our MC session we had dinner out then home, cuddled on the couch, and one thing led to another and well.. you know :smthumbup:
It was a great evening.

I know she loves me...I know shes sorry..I know she would take it all back..I know all these things. I just have to drill it into my head now over and over and let it sink in. I have to let our memories populate my head not projections of her and the xom.

Sometimes I wish I could rip the rearview mirror off the window so I couldn't look back, would be so much easier.


----------



## EI

Good Morning Everyone,

_And................. super busy, gotta run! Have a great day and I'll check in with you guys later..........._ 

_P.S. I love you, B1! I need a new avatar, please! Can you make one for me, my super creative, oh-so-handsome and endlessly talented hubby???   _


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Good morning All.
> 
> EI may or may not be on here today she has a FULL plate. A lot going on for her today, A LOT, Not sure hows she going to do it all.
> 
> We had a good MC session yesterday. We are going to start limiting our talk time about the affair. We are going to try to limit it to 15 minutes a day. I hope I can do this, it would be good for EI and me. I am still allowing the xOM way too much time in our marriage.
> 
> After our MC session we had dinner out then home, cuddled on the couch, and one thing led to another and well.. you know :smthumbup:
> It was a great evening.
> 
> I know she loves me...I know shes sorry..I know she would take it all back..I know all these things. I just have to drill it into my head now over and over and let it sink in. I have to let our memories populate my head not projections of her and the xom.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I could rip the rearview mirror off the window so I couldn't look back, would be so much easier.


Talking about the A has tapperd off a lot,once in awhile I might have a question I never thought of but I pretty much know everything.
I'm at the point where I can string together three good days at a time,I know soon that will turn into a week,the bad days are bad but I know she loves me and if she could,she would go back in time and change things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

what happened to yesterday's thread?


----------



## calvin

Almostrecovered said:


> what happened to yesterday's thread?


I got rid of it.I'm NOT plan b.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

calvin said:


> I got rid of it.I'm NOT plan b.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


but... but... but... my post and like count!!!


well at least I am glad you are in better spirits today


----------



## calvin

Almostrecovered said:


> but... but... but... my post and like count!!!
> 
> 
> well at least I am glad you are in better spirits today


I appreciate the advice AR,it was good stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Good morning All.
> 
> EI may or may not be on here today she has a FULL plate. A lot going on for her today, A LOT, Not sure hows she going to do it all.
> 
> We had a good MC session yesterday. We are going to start limiting our talk time about the affair. We are going to try to limit it to 15 minutes a day. I hope I can do this, it would be good for EI and me. I am still allowing the xOM way too much time in our marriage.
> 
> After our MC session we had dinner out then home, cuddled on the couch, and one thing led to another and well.. you know :smthumbup:
> It was a great evening.
> 
> I know she loves me...I know shes sorry..I know she would take it all back..I know all these things. I just have to drill it into my head now over and over and let it sink in. I have to let our memories populate my head not projections of her and the xom.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I could rip the rearview mirror off the window so I couldn't look back, would be so much easier.


B1 -- you are doing great considering the short amount of time in R.

BTW -- There is no more rearview mirror -- I tore the fncking thing out -- and it went out in the garbage today. So now just concentrate on the road ahead.


----------



## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> *but... but... but... my post and like count!!!*


_No, they don't! LOL 
_


----------



## EI

B1, I looooooove my new avatar! BTW, TAM_ers_, that is directly from B1's landscape photography portfolio. And, he is signing a contract this week with his "agent."


----------



## CantSitStill

hey guys..rough day at work for me today. working with special needs children with behavioral problems is not as easy as I thought it would be. I am beat up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> hey guys..rough day at work for me today. working with special needs children with behavioral problems is not as easy as I thought it would be. I am beat up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS -- But just knowing how much you love kids -- I bet when you think about it -- you are very happy doing what you do with those kids. It takes a special person to be a parent (EI and B1) and takes a special person to work with special needs children.

You three are my heroes.


----------



## CantSitStill

I really do love my job  it is challenging but I am determined to develop a relationship with each and every child. Once that happens I think they will learn to respect me. It breaks my heart tho when I hear a child say "I'm stupid!" We say "no you are smart!" and then they say "my mom said I"m stupid and I'm bad!" how dare parents talk to their children that way : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

CSS your job sounds awesome.


----------



## StagesOfGrief

CantSitStill said:


> I really do love my job  it is challenging but I am determined to develop a relationship with each and every child. Once that happens I think they will learn to respect me. It breaks my heart tho when I hear a child say "I'm stupid!" We say "no you are smart!" and then they say "my mom said I"m stupid and I'm bad!" how dare parents talk to their children that way : (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thats terrible that a parent would say something to their child like that, and while it must be difficult for you at times it sounds like a very rewarding job knowing you're providing a positive impact on their life. !


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> B1 -- you are doing great considering the short amount of time in R.
> 
> BTW -- There is no more rearview mirror -- I tore the fncking thing out -- and it went out in the garbage today. So now just concentrate on the road ahead.


thanks JH I was wondering where that rear view mirror went too 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> thanks JH I was wondering where that rear view mirror went too
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I found it in the trash,now I have two.
Its hard not to look back....real hard.
Do I want to forgive her...yes!!
If I was in her shoes would I give anything for another chance?.....You bet you @ss I would!
Little more time,we'll all make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> hey guys..rough day at work for me today. working with special needs children with behavioral problems is not as easy as I thought it would be. I am beat up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh CSS, it is absolutely NOT EASY. It isn't a "career" that I would have chosen for myself even though I do it every day. People like you, who are kind, loving, patient and truly love children are a Godsend to parents like me.



jh52 said:


> CSS -- But just knowing how much you love kids -- I bet when you think about it -- you are very happy doing what you do with those kids. It takes a special person to be a parent (EI and B1) and takes a special person to work with special needs children.
> 
> You three are my heroes.


jh, people like you, keep people like me focused, motivated and inspired with your positive words of encouragement. I'm so glad that you are here on TAM to dispense your wisdom, encouragement and compassion.



CantSitStill said:


> *I really do love my job  it is challenging but I am determined to develop a relationship with each and every child. * Once that happens I think they will learn to respect me. It breaks my heart tho when I hear a child say "I'm stupid!" We say "no you are smart!" and then they say "my mom said I"m stupid and I'm bad!" how dare parents talk to their children that way : (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And that is what makes YOU one of those "special angels." I can not tell you how much it means to our son when someone takes the time to talk to him and listen, really listen and is truly interested in what he has to say. It is so easy to "overlook" a person who looks different, talks different, learns different, yet the rewards are immeasurable for both the teacher and the student. Thank you so much for being one of those special angels.

We have been blessed to have some wonderful angels in our lives, for our son, in the form of special ed teachers, assistants, PT/OT - not to be confused with infidelity talk, that stands for physical therapists/occupational therapists, home health aides and medical transportation drivers. We've had a few, over the years, that were not so great and I have quickly sent them on their way. I will say that we currently have the best of humanitarians who make our lives so much easier every day. His home health aid arrives at 6:30 a.m. every morning to assist with changing, showering, grooming and dressing him. His medical transportation driver arrives at 7:15 a.m. and he is off on his way to a wonderful adult day care center that adds so much joy to his life. I make sure that I tell both of them, every day, how much I appreciate them. And, I truly do. When it is time for their reviews I make sure that their supervisors understand what wonderful assets their employees are.

Our youngest son is a senior in high school. He has always been a natural born care-giver and out of all of our children, he is the one who has willingly given me the most assistance in caring for our s/n son. But, he is a procrastinator and last spring he failed to turn in his chosen class schedule for his senior year.

In a twist of fate, his counselor, being unaware our situation at home, assigned him as a peer tutor for one of his electives. That means that he assists in a classroom full of students with varying degrees of disabilities, from the smallest handicap to those in wheelchairs, diapers, and needing complete assistance like our oldest son. Well, let's just say that they had no idea how lucky they had gotten. A lot of students simply consider that a "free period" and interact very little with the s/n students. My boy loooooooves this class. He says, "Mom, I don't treat them like they're "special" or "different," I treat them like my friends." One day they had gone to the gym and he came home telling me that he made sure that every single student got to make at least one successful basket in a game of basketball. His teacher could not stop bragging on him.... and he never once told her about his brother.

So I told her, and after talking for a bit the teacher and I realized that she had grown up two doors down from our house. She was raised by her grandparents and as she drove past our house every day she would see our children, including our s/n son outside playing and she said that she decided, then, that she was going to work with s/n children in the future. It gives me cold chills. 

I'm feeling very blessed, again, today! When I'm feeling blessed (or stressed) I talk/write a lot.


----------



## calvin

That was a really touching story,pretty neat Empty.
It lifts me up some to hear that,Every kid got a basket and shot some hoops.
CSS has always had a special connection with kids.She's good.
Camping with five or six kids year after year!
She always treated my nieces and nephews like they were her own.

You son is a fine young man,you guys did a good job.


----------



## CantSitStill

My son's special ed teacher has worked with him from kindergarden thru 5th grade and we have had a few IEPs where I have brought her to tears when telling her my appreciation for her hard work. She is very personal with the kids, whether they aren't feeling good or having a bad day, she gave that extra effort and I have given her gift cards when I can. This is his first year without her but she and Calvin and I did a good job of making him independant. Why did I land up in this job? It wor sort of just word of mouth and accidental but maybe God put me where I belong. It takes alot of patience and as you said..no labeling they are who they are and should be treated that way, not different or special just love them for who they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I look at is this way: everyone has a disability, yes we all do of some sort. We were all made different and each of us have learned how to cope with the disability..it could be that some can't see well or reading comprehension or like me panic disorder but we must keep trying our best to make it in this crazy world. I think there are alot of crazy people in this world and we all have to learn how to keep on keepin on. I don't understand how people can't care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

k back to reconcilliation..thank you for bringing tears to both Calvin and me Emtpy 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Touched yes,no tears.
Men dont do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> Touched yes,no tears.
> Men dont do that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yeah ok .. (sigh)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Calvin, CSS..... thank you. You guys are "virtually" wonderful friends and I am grateful to have made your "acquaintance," though the circumstances are less than ideal.

CSS, sorry you had such a rough day with your students. The truth is, I couldn't do what you do. I have only one s/n child and he gives me more than enough..... of everything..... to keep me busy. Then, there are the 3 other boys, the uber-spoiled daughter (who is now spoiled on her husband's dime, not ours.... LOL) and the most precious little ginger-haired grandson in the world.... but, never say "ginger" around his black-haired Daddy, our S-I-L, because he used to make fun his own ginger-haired little brother. Karma is a "B"


----------



## calvin

Morning guys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Rise and shine !!


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Rise and shine !!


Wake and bake!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Touched yes,no tears.
> Men dont do that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just read through all of yesterday's responses -- and disagree with you 100% about men crying. I just did -- maybe because it's what EI wrote about her two sons -- or maybe it's how I see how people now treat and look at Mrs JH when she is suffering one of her speech episodes brought on by her seizures.

If you ever listen to anything else I say Calvin -- listen to me now. It is okay for men to cry -- that is an emotion and response that all human beings (even animals make a crying sound when they are hurt). Don't deny your feelings when you are sad/hurt and need to cry -- yes CSS one day last year told you something that has bottled up your emotions -- but did you ever stop to think for a minute that by you not crying with CSS -- you are slowing down you recovery from her EA -- thus the reconciliation takes 2 steps forward and 1 step back. 

If CSS had to do all over again she would -- including telling you about men don't cry. CSS is hurting now everyday -- my guess is she cries everyday of her life -- whether it is in front of you or some place alone. I think it's time for you to open up to CSS and have a good long talk about everything -- and also have a good long cry and hold each other. The way you are hurtiing some days Calvin -- I think a good cry with CSS and holding each other would put you and your brain in a better place.


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Oh CSS, it is absolutely NOT EASY. It isn't a "career" that I would have chosen for myself even though I do it every day. People like you, who are kind, loving, patient and truly love children are a Godsend to parents like me.
> 
> 
> 
> jh, people like you, keep people like me focused, motivated and inspired with your positive words of encouragement. I'm so glad that you are here on TAM to dispense your wisdom, encouragement and compassion.
> 
> 
> 
> And that is what makes YOU one of those "special angels." I can not tell you how much it means to our son when someone takes the time to talk to him and listen, really listen and is truly interested in what he has to say. It is so easy to "overlook" a person who looks different, talks different, learns different, yet the rewards are immeasurable for both the teacher and the student. Thank you so much for being one of those special angels.
> 
> We have been blessed to have some wonderful angels in our lives, for our son, in the form of special ed teachers, assistants, PT/OT - not to be confused with infidelity talk, that stands for physical therapists/occupational therapists, home health aides and medical transportation drivers. We've had a few, over the years, that were not so great and I have quickly sent them on their way. I will say that we currently have the best of humanitarians who make our lives so much easier every day. His home health aid arrives at 6:30 a.m. every morning to assist with changing, showering, grooming and dressing him. His medical transportation driver arrives at 7:15 a.m. and he is off on his way to a wonderful adult day care center that adds so much joy to his life. I make sure that I tell both of them, every day, how much I appreciate them. And, I truly do. When it is time for their reviews I make sure that their supervisors understand what wonderful assets their employees are.
> 
> Our youngest son is a senior in high school. He has always been a natural born care-giver and out of all of our children, he is the one who has willingly given me the most assistance in caring for our s/n son. But, he is a procrastinator and last spring he failed to turn in his chosen class schedule for his senior year.
> 
> In a twist of fate, his counselor, being unaware our situation at home, assigned him as a peer tutor for one of his electives. That means that he assists in a classroom full of students with varying degrees of disabilities, from the smallest handicap to those in wheelchairs, diapers, and needing complete assistance like our oldest son. Well, let's just say that they had no idea how lucky they had gotten. A lot of students simply consider that a "free period" and interact very little with the s/n students. My boy loooooooves this class. He says, "Mom, I don't treat them like they're "special" or "different," I treat them like my friends." One day they had gone to the gym and he came home telling me that he made sure that every single student got to make at least one successful basket in a game of basketball. His teacher could not stop bragging on him.... and he never once told her about his brother.
> 
> So I told her, and after talking for a bit the teacher and I realized that she had grown up two doors down from our house. She was raised by her grandparents and as she drove past our house every day she would see our children, including our s/n son outside playing and she said that she decided, then, that she was going to work with s/n children in the future. It gives me cold chills.
> 
> I'm feeling very blessed, again, today! When I'm feeling blessed (or stressed) I talk/write a lot.


WOW EI -- what a heart warming POST. Thanks for being so upfront with your's and B1's story at home -- and thanks for the kind words as well.


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Just read through all of yesterday's responses -- and disagree with you 100% about men crying. I just did -- maybe because it's what EI wrote about her two sons -- or maybe it's how I see how people now treat and look at Mrs JH when she is suffering one of her speech episodes brought on by her seizures.
> 
> If you ever listen to anything else I say Calvin -- listen to me now. It is okay for men to cry -- that is an emotion and response that all human beings (even animals make a crying sound when they are hurt). Don't deny your feelings when you are sad/hurt and need to cry -- yes CSS one day last year told you something that has bottled up your emotions -- but did you ever stop to think for a minute that by you not crying with CSS -- you are slowing down you recovery from her EA -- thus the reconciliation takes 2 steps forward and 1 step back.
> 
> If CSS had to do all over again she would -- including telling you about men don't cry. CSS is hurting now everyday -- my guess is she cries everyday of her life -- whether it is in front of you or some place alone. I think it's time for you to open up to CSS and have a good long talk about everything -- and also have a good long cry and hold each other. The way you are hurtiing some days Calvin -- I think a good cry with CSS and holding each other would put you and your brain in a better place.


jh,I new something was going on with CSS,I think I mention something about buying a new tv set for the living room and I told my sone he could have the old one to play his games on.
CSS told me not to talk about a new set because we were't going to be together anyway.
So yeah,I cried.She told me I was'nt very manly.
I will never do that again.When your wife questions you manhood.....well..wont do it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

If I ever feel the need,I'll go to the garage or for a ride,maybe Grandma's grave but never around CSS again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> If I ever feel the need,I'll go to the garage or for a ride,maybe Grandma's grave but never around CSS again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


JH is right Calvin, crying is NOT bad and has nothing to do with not being manly. Remember CSS was in a different place when she said that, in a fog, probably still angry etc. EI said some hurtful things also in those first few days and even weeks around and before Dday. 

One particular day, around Dday, I reached over to hug her, touch her and she screamed at me "don't touch me!" and left the bedroom in a fit of anger. I cried hard then and thought, fine, I will never touch you again. But as you can see I do, because I know she was in a different place then, not herself when she said that. Now she wants me to touch her, hug her, hold her etc.

Don't let something that was said in a bad moment ruin this for you. Crying can be a HUGE release and is healthy. Crying in her arms is comforting and I would rather not cry and suffer alone.
I am sure CSS would not want you suffering alone.

Do I cry alone sometimes, sure..but usually I will seek out EI because I need her and want her to comfort me in my dark moments.


----------



## B1

We stuck to our plan yesterday and only talked about the A for 15 minutes. 

We probably only talked about it for 10-12 minutes then done. That doesn't mean I didn't suffer a little quietly with some movies and images but they were not near as bad and were overal well controlled. Since my rearview has been ripped off it's just harder to look back 

Hope today is as good, I already have question number 1 for EI, and it's not too bad at all, and has nothing to do with what normally bothers me. But I'll wait for my 15.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> JH is right Calvin, crying is NOT bad and has nothing to do with not being manly. Remember CSS was in a different place when she said that, in a fog, probably still angry etc. EI said some hurtful things also in those first few days and even weeks around and before Dday.
> 
> One particular day, around Dday, I reached over to hug her, touch her and she screamed at me "don't touch me!" and left the bedroom in a fit of anger. I cried hard then and thought, fine, I will never touch you again. But as you can see I do, because I know she was in a different place then, not herself when she said that. Now she wants me to touch her, hug her, hold her etc.
> 
> Don't let something that was said in a bad moment ruin this for you. Crying can be a HUGE release and is healthy. Crying in her arms is comforting and I would rather not cry and suffer alone.
> I am sure CSS would not want you suffering alone.
> 
> Do I cry alone sometimes, sure..but usually I will seek out EI because I need her and want her to comfort me in my dark moments.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Very well said B1 ---


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> We stuck to our plan yesterday and only talked about the A for 15 minutes.
> 
> We probably only talked about it for 10-12 minutes then done. That doesn't mean I didn't suffer a little quietly with some movies and images but they were not near as bad and were overal well controlled. Since my rearview has been ripped off it's just harder to look back
> 
> Hope today is as good, I already have question number 1 for EI, and it's not too bad at all, and has nothing to do with what normally bothers me. But I'll wait for my 15.


B1 -- I know you feel you have to look back --- but like spilling a glass of milk -- it's too late -- wipe the milk up --- history was yesterday and everyday before today --- one thing is --- we can't change history --- no sense of focussing on something we can't change. Focus on today --- tomorrow -- the future -- the road ahead --- because my friend not one of us is ever guaranteed tomorrow --- only right now.

Stay strong B1 - you and EI appear to be doing just fine.


----------



## daisygirl 41

betrayed1 said:


> We stuck to our plan yesterday and only talked about the A for 15 minutes.
> 
> We probably only talked about it for 10-12 minutes then done. That doesn't mean I didn't suffer a little quietly with some movies and images but they were not near as bad and were overal well controlled. Since my rearview has been ripped off it's just harder to look back
> 
> Hope today is as good, I already have question number 1 for EI, and it's not too bad at all, and has nothing to do with what normally bothers me. But I'll wait for my 15.


Do you think a time should come when we stop talking about it daily?
Do you think there comes a point when we should say 'enough now, let's move on, put this behind us' ?
My H and I do t talk about it everyday now. It's always there, but I try and deal with it now. If I am particularly upset or triggering then of course I bring it up, but 6 months into R we don't really discuss it much now. 
Is this wrong?
Is there a right or wrong way? U don't know!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

Every couple is different, but we haven't talked about it daily for quite some time. We had to compromise, because if I had my way we'd talk about it more but if he had his way we'd talk about it less. So it's kind of in the middle. We spent the first year and a half talking about it as much as I wanted to, then I figured I needed to back off some because really, he's proven himself and for us to move forward I have to quit, not beating him up but bringing it up all the time.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hope1964 said:


> Every couple is different, but we haven't talked about it daily for quite some time. We had to compromise, because if I had my way we'd talk about it more but if he had his way we'd talk about it less. So it's kind of in the middle. We spent the first year and a half talking about it as much as I wanted to, then I figured I needed to back off some because really, he's proven himself and for us to move forward I have to quit, not beating him up but bringing it up all the time.


Hope, that's how it's gone for us really. I know it's only been 6 months for us, but as we have already recognised, all couples are different.
I just wondered if some would consider it rugsweeping? 
There are things I haven't had answered yet, but thats because I haven't asked. I don't feel the need to know every detail. Not right now anyway!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hope, that's how it's gone for us really. I know it's only been 6 months for us, but as we have already recognised, all couples are different.
> I just wondered if some would consider it rugsweeping?
> There are things I haven't had answered yet, but thats because I haven't asked. I don't feel the need to know every detail. Not right now anyway!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My problem is that I kept asking and asking the same questions and obsessing over the same subject matter. I have ALL the details, I feel comfortable in that I know most everyhing. However, I am just getting stuck on certain things and I wear EI out with the constant questions and statements. Granted EI will answer them but sometimes she just gets beat up too much and says ok I need a break.

also, I am allowing the xOM way too much time in my head and in our marriage. So we decided, or actually I did, to try the 15min thing. This allowes me to focus my questions, get through them and move on. 

Hopefully soon I can go to every other day for 15min. etc.

Maybe this wont always work, we will see. I am sure if something is really eating at me or I do have a new question that EI would never object to answering it outside the 15min window. She is their for me, I know this and take comfort in that.


On knowing the deatils, if you can live without them then that's fine. I would say just let them go. But if they are eating at you now it probably won't go away, at least I don't think so and you will eventually have to ask and face them.


----------



## daisygirl 41

I wonder too if men deal with things differently from the ladies?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

For me, it REALLY helped to have it written down in a timeline fashion. But I also needed to ask the same questions over and over. He hated it, but he also knew that when I got the same answers over and over it was slowly helping to rebuild my trust in him. I STILL ask some of those questions once in a while, and I still check the timeline periodically.

Part of his recovery is supposed to be a formal apology including admitting everything he did. He's been in his 12 step program for a year and a half and hasn't done this yet, which is starting to bug me more and more. We have MC on Monday and this has to come up, because of what happened with the porn last month too.


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## EI

betrayed1 said:


> JH is right Calvin, crying is NOT bad and has nothing to do with not being manly. Remember CSS was in a different place when she said that, in a fog, probably still angry etc. EI said some hurtful things also in those first few days and even weeks around and before Dday.
> 
> One particular day, around Dday, I reached over to hug her, touch her and she screamed at me "don't touch me!" and left the bedroom in a fit of anger. I cried hard then and thought, fine, I will never touch you again. But as you can see I do, because I know she was in a different place then, not herself when she said that. Now she wants me to touch her, hug her, hold her etc.
> 
> Don't let something that was said in a bad moment ruin this for you. Crying can be a HUGE release and is healthy. Crying in her arms is comforting and I would rather not cry and suffer alone.
> I am sure CSS would not want you suffering alone.
> 
> Do I cry alone sometimes, sure..but usually I will seek out EI because I need her and want her to comfort me in my dark moments.


Wow, this is pretty unbelievable. I just shared this very same story on CSS's thread. I had no idea that you were sharing this story here. We must truly be...... "one." I love you, B1. Every part of you. It hurts me to see you cry tears because of me. But, it was only when I first saw those tears, that night, that I knew that you truly loved me and that is when our real reconciliation began. You never have to cry alone. We can cry together.... but we can also smile, laugh, and love.......... <3


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> I wonder too if men deal with things differently from the ladies?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Hope1964 said:


> For me, it REALLY helped to have it written down in a timeline fashion. But I also needed to ask the same questions over and over. He hated it, but he also knew that when I got the same answers over and over it was slowly helping to rebuild my trust in him. I STILL ask some of those questions once in a while, and I still check the timeline periodically.
> 
> Part of his recovery is supposed to be a formal apology including admitting everything he did. He's been in his 12 step program for a year and a half and hasn't done this yet, which is starting to bug me more and more. We have MC on Monday and this has to come up, because of what happened with the porn last month too.



daisygirl and Hope, you all have great input. Please keep posting here. I will add some to your comments later.... but, as usual, I'm running late, so I'll get back to this thread this evening.


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## EI

jh52 said:


> Just read through all of yesterday's responses -- and disagree with you 100% about men crying. I just did -- maybe because it's what EI wrote about her two sons -- or maybe it's how I see how people now treat and look at Mrs JH when she is suffering one of her speech episodes brought on by her seizures.


jh, I keep you and Mrs. jh in my prayers every day. I hope that you get some answers very soon. I know how hard this is for both of you. My heart goes out to you. She is so fortunate to have you by her side throughout this. That is the "for better, for worse, in sickness and in health part." You're a good man!


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## calvin

Morning guys!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

Empty Inside said:


> Well, it's a morning.... that's about all I can say about it...........


Wassup?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Well, it's a morning.... that's about all I can say about it...........


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## EI

Wazza said:


> Wassup?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bad day and night with one of my sons...... he's 19 y/o..... need I say more. And, just more of the same...... little tired, could use a breather.


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Bad day and night with one of my sons...... he's 19 y/o..... need I say more. And, just more of the same...... little tired, could use a breather.


Hang in EI -- vent on here if you need to. !!!

Morning folks !!!!

Last full day of summer ----ENJOY !!


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> jh, I keep you and Mrs. jh in my prayers every day. I hope that you get some answers very soon. I know how hard this is for both of you. My heart goes out to you. She is so fortunate to have you by her side throughout this. That is the "for better, for worse, in sickness and in health part." You're a good man!


Thanks EI -- appreciate the prayers and support. Like we say -- taking it an hour at a time -- a day at a time !! Nothing we can control -- it's in God's hands now -- and we just have to make the best of life.


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## B1

Is 3 1\2 months past Dday #2 long enough to basically, get over it, and move on....Is it time to stop talking about the A every day or even every other day?
Have I had enough time to get over the hurt and pain....should I, MANUP, and move on?


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## warlock07

What happened b1 ?


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## Grey Goose

calvin said:


> When you call me at work and say you are on yoir way to my house and tell me I owe you money cause you had to pay for my wife's abortion and then you start on my kids and keep that kind of crap up for four months all bets are off.
> I will see him.God have mercy cause I wont.
> No way around it,he will pay for his threats and he wont break up any more families like he's already done.
> I like that he told his ex friend he needs to go to the police for protection.
> I've gotten two calls from him in the last two weeks.He'll get what he's asking for,just a matter of time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are so much better than him, he is a piece of crap that does not deserve the time of day, remember he is in the lowest of the food chain and all his behavior is based on this. DO NOT GIVE HIM THE PLEASURE! We are so much better than them!


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## calvin

Grey Goose said:


> You are so much better than him, he is a piece of crap that does not deserve the time of day, remember he is in the lowest of the food chain and all his behavior is based on this. DO NOT GIVE HIM THE PLEASURE! We are so much better than them!


Funny you should say that,I dont answer the blocked number but just a half hour ago I picked up without thinking,he started he's stupid laugh.
He hung up real quick when I told him I was going to rip out his dentures and shove them down his throat and I can do it too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Think its time for some of my Teamster brothers to pay him a visit,though I'd like to do it in person.
Damn coward
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

warlock07 said:


> What happened b1 ?


Rough morning...I am wearing EI out with A talk, That's all. She wants a break sometimes and even though we are down to 15 minutes a day, she still sees my pain and it's still just in the air so to speak.

But.. I am still hurting from this, sometimes bad and it really kicks me hard sometimes. The evenings are really tough now, when things are calm and quite. I tend to replay events of the A. I second guess answers to already asked questions. I am still questioning certain things she has already answered etc.

This hurt tends to make me less manly so to speak and somewhat whimpy. I still feel wounded sometimes and this wound weakens me. I need to be strong for my family and my kids and myself for that matter But this whole A has weakened my resolve.

I am now reading the No more MR. nice guy book online. EI actually bought that book and another book for me, both on the way now.


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## calvin

It will run its course B1,after about 5 months I quit asking pretty much,once in awhile I'll think of a question I never asked but thats kind of rare now.
Yestersay I asked if she would look at his fb pic and day dream of him,she said yes.
It hurt but I got my asnswer,I know she is disgusted with him now.
You probably should start to tapper off soon.
I know it hurts brother but you both have come a long way.It will pass.
Hang in there B1.....prayes bro
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I didnt even trigger off of scumbags phone call a little while ago,he sure hung up quick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

No, it does not make you less manly. And f*ck anyone who says that.

That said, b1 I always wanted to ask you this. Can you tell us your perspective on what happened before and during the affair ? Can you share your side of the things ? Why were you so detached ? Was the low testosterone the only problem ? I know EI shared hers and you basically agreed with her. Can you share a bit more about this time of your life and why you acted as such ?


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## B1

warlock07 said:


> No, it does not make you less manly. And f*ck anyone who says that.
> 
> That said, b1 I always wanted to ask you this. Can you tell us your perspective on what happened before and during the affair ? Can you share your side of the things ? Why were you so detached ? Was the low testosterone the only problem ? I know EI shared hers and you basically agreed with her. Can you share a bit more about this time of your life and why you acted as such ?


honestly EI's write up on it was spot on. But her goes my shorter response to it all 

Basically pre-a I was severely depressed, de-tached from life and completely 100% reasigned to a life of misery. I actually told EI this. I thought, this is the cup I was given and I must live with it!
I was offering her misery, nothing more, no hope, no changes, no willing to try this or that just stay where we
were and live that sucky life. I remember thinking this and saying this to her. I really honestly believed it too, how truly sad I was looking back now. Our life truly sucked, BIG time. kids messing up, finances in the toilet, depression running wild and I had just given up, plain and simple. Yes, Suicide had started crossing my mind too. I started thinking of ways to do it. Those were my darkest hours, thank God I didn't do it.


Well, during all this EI broke free of the rut, she beat depression and when she did she tried to get me on board, she got me into counseling, got me to the doctor,I got on medication, she started trying to make things better between us. We even joined a gym for a while. Honestly, I was just at the time to far gone. Nothing helped. The more she tried to get my attention the more pi$$ed off I got. And I really would get pi$$ed off when she came on to me pre-A. 


So EI simply started working and focusing on improving herself, finding her own happiness. She started going out with friends, go over girlfriends house etc. basically as I think about now she sort of did a 180. I simply felt better because she wasn't bothering me anymore. She was leaving me alone. Soon after she started sleeping on the couch and that was about the end. IT wasn't long after that, that she started looking outside of our marriage for happiness. She found and old X bf and you know the rest of the story.


The low-T played a part, a big part, but I still had chosen as my counselor said to stay stuck in that rut. EI wanted out and I just wanted to be left alone in it and that's the cold hard truth. I was just at rock bottom and no one was going to get me out of it. 

Until the A, it snapped something in me, emotions came flowing, feelings came bursting forward, hurt, anger, rage, sadness, and even some happiness came out of me. I was literally emotionally
shocked as I call it. I was also very inhibited before and I am no longer inhibited. I express emotion now when before I was stone cold. Other people have commented that I smile now, and laugh.

When EI says she tried, she honestly did, for about 3 years I think it was before she broke and had the A.

I am NOT the same person as I was, I am emotionally present now but with that comes this intense pain from the A.
I am stronger, yet wounded, deeply wounded. I want so bad to beat these thoughts and images etc. I want to be the
father I should have always been, and the husband. I can but it's a tough battle with this A always looming over me.

EI has been great in helping me and being there for me. She has been so honest and open with everything. She has more than owned her A, she has said sorry in more ways than one. Yet, I still question her remorse and sorrow, I still have trouble grasping the reality of it. I still worry she cares for him. 

But, right now, she is wore out, she is feeling beat up now with the questions. She says she needs a break, just a breather from it all. She wants a little happiness and something to look forward to.

Honestly, so do I, But I don't get a break from these [email protected] images and thoughts, the questions that keep kreeping in. Yes, it's definitely getting better with time, I am healing, I just feel like EI wants me to heal faster, and to get over it quicker than I really can.


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## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Rough morning...I am wearing EI out with A talk, That's all. She wants a break sometimes and even though we are down to 15 minutes a day, she still sees my pain and it's still just in the air so to speak.
> 
> But.. I am still hurting from this, sometimes bad and it really kicks me hard sometimes. The evenings are really tough now, when things are calm and quite. I tend to replay events of the A. I second guess answers to already asked questions. I am still questioning certain things she has already answered etc.
> 
> This hurt tends to make me less manly so to speak and somewhat whimpy. I still feel wounded sometimes and this wound weakens me. I need to be strong for my family and my kids and myself for that matter But this whole A has weakened my resolve.
> 
> I am now reading the No more MR. nice guy book online. EI actually bought that book and another book for me, both on the way now.


B1 -- don't kick yourself --- you are doing very well -- it really has only been a short time that you and EI are in R and your new marriage. Nothing anyone says to you can change who you are and what you need -- you are a unique person -- EI will stand by you as long as it takes -- she loves you and wants nothing more than live the rest of her life as your wife with you -- you may feel better in a week, month, a year, two years -- but don't beat yourself up -- you are the man EI wants -- and if she could erase that past she would do so it a heart beat -- it's time to focus on the road ahead and not worried about the glass of milk that was spilled -- that is wiped up -- not let's focus on filling that glass with more milk.


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## jh52

calvin said:


> I didnt even trigger off of scumbags phone call a little while ago,he sure hung up quick
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nice job my friend !!


----------



## Zanna

betrayed1 said:


> Honestly, so do I, But I don't get a break from these [email protected] images and thoughts, the questions that keep kreeping in. Yes, it's definitely getting better with time, I am healing, I just feel like EI wants me to heal faster, and to get over it quicker than I really can.



I understand this all too well. I want a break from thinking about the A. It's been a year for me and I still think about it every day.

I have often thought that my H wanted me to heal quicker but he said while he knows that it's not possible, he just wishes so badly that he could erase that time from our lives and that it's so depressing to bring it all up again. I wish it was that simple. I mentioned to my H the other day that he would be shocked at how much I think about it during the day and that if I wrote down how many triggers I had on a daily basis...that he would truly get it. He said do that because I do want to understand.

Anyway, I thought I would comment on your thread today because I found my H reading your thread the other day. He then apologized to me because he said I'm sure this is a board you wish you didn't have to read and for that I am very sorry.

When I read E1's posts they remind me of much of what my H has said to me. I do think she gets it.

But for them, the A is over. For us, it's like it has just begun in our minds.

I've read that for as long as the A went on, that the BS should double it and that time will be the shortest amount of time that they will need to heal.


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## calvin

Yeah,hang in there B1,like I said I probably ask about the A a couple times a week.It helps CSS seeing this jerk for what a true dirtbag he is,she hates him.
I bet a month or so from now your questions will trickle down to a drip,then a month after that they will pretty much stop.
Just like jh said,day by day and hour by hour.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

Hell, I still think about it every day and we're over two years out. At 4-5 months out I was just getting to where I didn't want to bash his head in whenever I saw him.


----------



## jh52

honestly EI's write up on it was spot on. But her goes my shorter response to it all 

Basically pre-a I was severely depressed, de-tached from life and completely 100% reasigned to a life of misery. I actually told EI this. I thought, this is the cup I was given and I must live with it!
I was offering her misery, nothing more, no hope, no changes, no willing to try this or that just stay where we
were and live that sucky life. I remember thinking this and saying this to her. I really honestly believed it too, how truly sad I was looking back now. Our life truly sucked, BIG time. kids messing up, finances in the toilet, depression running wild and I had just given up, plain and simple. Yes, Suicide had started crossing my mind too. I started thinking of ways to do it. Those were my darkest hours, thank God I didn't do it.

If you had suicide thoughts – you were so far gone that EI and your family are lucky you are still alive. People who start thinking of ways to commit suicide are said to become happy because they have made that decision to end it. Glad you never followed through – it would have left your kids devastated. You must have been in a tremendous amount of pain – but with no way out asking for help.

Well, during all this EI broke free of the rut, she beat depression and when she did she tried to get me on board, she got me into counseling, got me to the doctor,I got on medication, she started trying to make things better between us. We even joined a gym for a while. Honestly, I was just at the time to far gone. Nothing helped. The more she tried to get my attention the more pi$$ed off I got. And I really would get pi$$ed off when she came on to me pre-A. 

Makes sense – you were through with EI, you kids, and your life. You just wanted to die.

So EI simply started working and focusing on improving herself, finding her own happiness. She started going out with friends, go over girlfriends house etc. basically as I think about now she sort of did a 180. I simply felt better because she wasn't bothering me anymore. She was leaving me alone. Soon after she started sleeping on the couch and that was about the end. IT wasn't long after that, that she started looking outside of our marriage for happiness. She found and old X bf and you know the rest of the story.

I can’t imagine what EI would have done/felt during her affair if you would have followed through and committed suicide.

The low-T played a part, a big part, but I still had chosen as my counselor said to stay stuck in that rut. EI wanted out and I just wanted to be left alone in it and that's the cold hard truth. I was just at rock bottom and no one was going to get me out of it.

This is a perfect example of men refusing to go to a doctor when then know something is wrong – whether it is physical or mental pain.

Until the A, it snapped something in me, emotions came flowing, feelings came bursting forward, hurt, anger, rage, sadness, and even some happiness came out of me. I was literally emotionally
shocked as I call it. I was also very inhibited before and I am no longer inhibited. I express emotion now when before I was stone cold. Other people have commented that I smile now, and laugh.

Life changing events will either kill you or make you stronger. Her affair made you say WTF am I doing – and will make you stronger. You have to believe that.

When EI says she tried, she honestly did, for about 3 years I think it was before she broke and had the A.

Sorry – no pass given to EI – even if it would have been 10 years – never ever a reason to step out of a marriage. She should have divorced you if she wanted out.

I am NOT the same person as I was, I am emotionally present now but with that comes this intense pain from the A.
Yes – I can’t imagine talking to the old B1
I am stronger, yet wounded, deeply wounded. I want so bad to beat these thoughts and images etc. I want to be the father I should have always been, and the husband. I can but it's a tough battle with this A always looming over me.

Can’t change the past – you did what you did – but you can become the best man, husband, father and role model for your kids and your whole family (everyday) – for the rest of your life.

EI has been great in helping me and being there for me. She has been so honest and open with everything. She has more than owned her A, she has said sorry in more ways than one. Yet, I still question her remorse and sorrow, I still have trouble grasping the reality of it. I still worry she cares for him. 

She is with you – she wants you – she has opened up and been completely honest – she is shown remorse – she is doing everything necessary for you to start your new marriage

But, right now, she is wore out, she is feeling beat up now with the questions. She says she needs a break, just a breather from it all. She wants a little happiness and something to look forward to.

Once again – EI doesn’t get a break – she stepped out of the marriage – and you both could have made the decision to divorce – but you both decided to try and R – and start a new marriage. I have read it takes 2 to 5 years – that’s a long time – but anything worth while is usually not easy. Yes – you both need a break – it would be nice for just the 2 of you to get away – even for a long weekend – maybe you can talk about that and get some help with your family commitments to get away and have some FUN !!

Honestly, so do I, But I don't get a break from these [email protected] images and thoughts, the questions that keep kreeping in. Yes, it's definitely getting better with time, I am healing, I just feel like EI wants me to heal faster, and to get over it quicker than I really can

You can’t read EI’s mind – she will help you heal as long as it takes – look forward – look at EI –really look in her eyes – and tell me what they say. Bet they say, B1 I love you more than you think and more than I ever could imagine.


----------



## SomedayDig

B1...that was a great and honest insight to yourself. Quite reflective I'd say! Here I am 6+ months out from Dday. I still have mind movies, but they're no more than flashes now. They don't consume me, mostly cuz I refuse to let them consume me. You have it in you to beat this stuff...these images that detract us from our daily lives. You have it in you to stop them. You decide what you think about and when.

Don't let this son of a b-tch ruin your mind.

When those flashes come, and I know this all to well from my own brain, take a deep breath and close your eyes. Purposefully and meaningfully say "No". If you can say it out loud, all the better. If you're in a place where people may stare and wonder what in THEE hell you're doing...well, use the inside voice 

You control your mind. Get that f'er out of it whenever you can and don't give him that space. It's time for him to be evicted.

Questions. Hmm...well, once again - I'm right there with you. I can tell you like the mind movies, the questions will taper off. To me, the questions are my seeking the truth. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's not to wallow in the shadow of the affair (not for me at least). It's to ask and get the answer again. I ask Regret every few days if I know everything there is to know. She says yes. The only difference between now and last month is that my Spider senses aren't tingling.

I think we're getting there.

You will, too.


----------



## anotherone

i hate that word....


----------



## B1

Thanks everyone for taking the time to post and give feedback. 
It is very appreciated and was really needed. I was really struggling this morning. We fought before I left for work. We are doing much better now. 

JH thank you for the detailed breakdown and responses to each section...that was very nice and helpful.

Zanna this is so true: _"But for them, the A is over. For us, it's like it has just begun in our minds."_

Hope you made me laugh and I needed that:_ "At 4-5 months out I was just getting to where I didn't want to bash his head in whenever I saw him."_

Dig, Yes so many of my questions are just trying to feel like I am getting the truth, I know I am, I just doubt sometimes.

Calvin glad to know around 5 months it tapered off for you, hopefully it will for me too.

It was a rough start but it got better as the day progressed. I read a big chunk of No more MR. Nice guy online. There is a lot of good stuff in that book. Some of it didn't apply to me and other stuff REALLY hit home. 

EI is in the tub now we are getting out of here and having a date. And tomorrow we are going to the movies.

Thanks again for all the support and thank you Warlock for asking some VERY good questions!


----------



## Wazza

betrayed1 said:


> But.. I am still hurting from this, sometimes bad and it really kicks me hard sometimes. The evenings are really tough now, when things are calm and quite. I tend to replay events of the A. I second guess answers to already asked questions. I am still questioning certain things she has already answered etc.


You have to process this stuff and it takes what it takes. It does get better. Never goes away, but gets much better. My situation is different from yours (longer time out from the affair, handled it differently - I think you are doing better, and no counselling).

For me it's cyclical. I put things to bed for a while and then later they come back. So joining TAM has me doing another round of opening up and processing things. I think it's easier for me since it was so long ago, and some aspects of the affair it's almost like it happened to two different people, not us.

I think there are three reasons I find it necessary to revisit my wife's affair. 

The first is because I see an inconsistency or a missing fact and I need to fill in the gap.

The second is because it hurts and I need to let it out.

The third (and this isn't at all often, but I am ashamed to say it's true) is that occasionally I get angry at her, and talking about it is letting out my hurt but there is also a small part of me that brings it up to hurt her, like in any situation where you are fighting and get angry.

Now, if I am filling in the gaps, I organise my thoughts as much as I can, and then talk to my wife. Firstly, because that spares her pain and dumb questions. Secondly because my wife was not forthcoming with truth, and I target the questions I ask carefully to bring truth out.

If I'm hurting, I try not to lean on her with my pain when I can because it hurts her so much. I write my thoughts down. This forces me to organise them and deal with the pain and also lets me write exactly what I am thinking, without filtering my words to avoid hurt as I would have to if talking to her. That plus channeling the pain into physical exercise, like a lot of people say. And for me, when she hold me and loves me the pain goes away. So I've told her she has to do that a lot  And I have someone else who has also been a victim of an affair, and we talk about it. We have enough similarity that we can understand each other to talk this stuff, and I find talking it through with the other person removes my need to talk it through with my wife. Don't know if the counsellor is supposed to fill that need with you, but if not, you should find someone.

And if I am trying to hurt her.....well I just have to not do that. I never start out with that intention and when it arises, which isn't often, it arises from anger. So I have to not talk to her about it when I am angry. 

She feels like saying it to hurt her is a much bigger part than it really is. Dunno what to do about that, but maybe if it's part of what you do you should talk to EI about it, as an act of support to her.




jh52 said:


> Sorry – no pass given to EI – even if it would have been 10 years – never ever a reason to step out of a marriage. She should have divorced you if she wanted out.


Yeah, yeah, EI did wrong. I know. What you are saying is common wisdom on TAM, but I reckon it's a dangerous perspective.

TAM is full of BS and WS tend to get a bad time, but if the point is rebuilding a relationship, how the WS feels and why they did what they did are vitally important. If B1 went back to how he was pre-affair then it's a matter of time till either another affair or the marriage falls apart.

Would B1 have been any happier if EI had left him rather than having an affair?

You ignore EI's needs and you are ignoring the future of the marriage. Put her under too much pressure and she is human, she will break. As would I, as would you.

Not being all religious, but because it's a thought provoking lesson regardless of your religious beliefs. When Christ was walking around Israel, adultery was punished by stoning someone to death. An adulterous woman was brought before him and they said "Should we kill her" and he said "Of course. So the one of you who hasn't ever done the wrong thing, they get to throw the first stone." Funnily enough, no-one there felt they qualified. Maybe you are of such standing that you could throw the first stone at EI, Regret, CSS, my wife or the others. But I'm sure not.

Life is too short to spend time blaming them instead of loving them. Forgiveness is work, and hatred is easy, but forgiveness is much more powerful.


----------



## B1

Wazza said:


> You have to process this stuff and it takes what it takes. It does get better. Never goes away, but gets much better. My situation is different from yours (longer time out from the affair, handled it differently - I think you are doing better, and no counselling).
> 
> For me it's cyclical. I put things to bed for a while and then later they come back. So joining TAM has me doing another round of opening up and processing things. I think it's easier for me since it was so long ago, and some aspects of the affair it's almost like it happened to two different people, not us.
> 
> I think there are three reasons I find it necessary to revisit my wife's affair.
> 
> The first is because I see an inconsistency or a missing fact and I need to fill in the gap.
> 
> The second is because it hurts and I need to let it out.
> 
> The third (and this isn't at all often, but I am ashamed to say it's true) is that occasionally I get angry at her, and talking about it is letting out my hurt but there is also a small part of me that brings it up to hurt her, like in any situation where you are fighting and get angry.
> 
> Now, if I am filling in the gaps, I organise my thoughts as much as I can, and then talk to my wife. Firstly, because that spares her pain and dumb questions. Secondly because my wife was not forthcoming with truth, and I target the questions I ask carefully to bring truth out.
> 
> If I'm hurting, I try not to lean on her with my pain when I can because it hurts her so much. I write my thoughts down. This forces me to organise them and deal with the pain and also lets me write exactly what I am thinking, without filtering my words to avoid hurt as I would have to if talking to her. That plus channeling the pain into physical exercise, like a lot of people say. And for me, when she hold me and loves me the pain goes away. So I've told her she has to do that a lot  And I have someone else who has also been a victim of an affair, and we talk about it. We have enough similarity that we can understand each other to talk this stuff, and I find talking it through with the other person removes my need to talk it through with my wife. Don't know if the counsellor is supposed to fill that need with you, but if not, you should find someone.
> 
> And if I am trying to hurt her.....well I just have to not do that. I never start out with that intention and when it arises, which isn't often, it arises from anger. So I have to not talk to her about it when I am angry.
> 
> She feels like saying it to hurt her is a much bigger part than it really is. Dunno what to do about that, but maybe if it's part of what you do you should talk to EI about it, as an act of support to her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, yeah, EI did wrong. I know. What you are saying is common wisdom on TAM, but I reckon it's a dangerous perspective.
> 
> TAM is full of BS and WS tend to get a bad time, but if the point is rebuilding a relationship, how the WS feels and why they did what they did are vitally important. If B1 went back to how he was pre-affair then it's a matter of time till either another affair or the marriage falls apart.
> 
> Would B1 have been any happier if EI had left him rather than having an affair?
> 
> You ignore EI's needs and you are ignoring the future of the marriage. Put her under too much pressure and she is human, she will break. As would I, as would you.
> 
> Not being all religious, but because it's a thought provoking lesson regardless of your religious beliefs. When Christ was walking around Israel, adultery was punished by stoning someone to death. An adulterous woman was brought before him and they said "Should we kill her" and he said "Of course. So the one of you who hasn't ever done the wrong thing, they get to throw the first stone." Funnily enough, no-one there felt they qualified. Maybe you are of such standing that you could throw the first stone at EI, Regret, CSS, my wife or the others. But I'm sure not.
> 
> Life is too short to spend time blaming them instead of loving them. Forgiveness is work, and hatred is easy, but forgiveness is much more powerful.


A lot of wisdom in what you said.
Yes, I know EI's breaking point, would she do it again I don't think so, I think she would divorce me instantly if I fell back on old ways.

I do actually write a lot, I write my thoughts out a lot of times before going to EI with them. Sometimes the act of writing them out is enough and I delete them and never go further.

"Let he who has no sin cast the first stone...." I know that scripture well it's John 8:7. one of my favorites actually. When I read it I never forgot it. Jesus forgave a woman who was actually caught in the act of adultery.

Thanks wazza for your help and insight.


----------



## Hope1964

WS do deserve to get a hard time from the BS, but only to a point. It's up to the BS to figure out where the line is. I told my hubby a couple weeks out in an email that I was not going to 'be an ass' about the whole mess, and I meant it. I have tried and, for the most part, I think I have succeeded, in not letting my emotions get the better of me when dealing with everything. That doesn't mean I don't have the emotions though. I meant what I said about feeling like bashing his head in. Feeling it and doing it are of course very different though. I have struggled mightily over the last 2.5 years since Dday#1 to come to terms with my emotions and I have still not mastered them. But what I am able to do is deal with them more and more on my own. I credit my hubby's unfailing devotion to R with a lot of that. And of course I have done a lot of my own work too.


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Thanks everyone for taking the time to post and give feedback.
> It is very appreciated and was really needed. I was really struggling this morning. We fought before I left for work. We are doing much better now.
> 
> JH thank you for the detailed breakdown and responses to each section...that was very nice and helpful.
> 
> Zanna this is so true: _"But for them, the A is over. For us, it's like it has just begun in our minds."_
> 
> Hope you made me laugh and I needed that:_ "At 4-5 months out I was just getting to where I didn't want to bash his head in whenever I saw him."_
> 
> Dig, Yes so many of my questions are just trying to feel like I am getting the truth, I know I am, I just doubt sometimes.
> 
> Calvin glad to know around 5 months it tapered off for you, hopefully it will for me too.
> 
> It was a rough start but it got better as the day progressed. I read a big chunk of No more MR. Nice guy online. There is a lot of good stuff in that book. Some of it didn't apply to me and other stuff REALLY hit home.
> 
> EI is in the tub now we are getting out of here and having a date. And tomorrow we are going to the movies.
> 
> Thanks again for all the support and thank you Warlock for asking some VERY good questions!


Good stuff B1.We both have exceptional women.
I'm glad your feeling better.
Honestly B1,I think what if I had done this to CSS.
I would hope and pray,even make a deal with the devil if she would forgive me and give me a chance.
We know our spouses better than anyone.
We can write here on Tams but it doesnt show how this plays out in our homes when the emotions really come out between us and our wives.
I see a lot of hope with you two.It helps us and I think Dig and Regret also.
We're all going to be good.
Enjoy your date tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I understand Empty wanting you to be all better because honestly I feel the same way. I love what we have now and don't wanna look back. I don't wanna look at the negative from him or me from the past. I want us to feel happy that we are more connected now and thankful and blessed that we are still together..yet I understand it's not easy for the BS to forget. I feel we are always(us waywards that want R soo bad) on standby ready to comfort those horrible thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

from The Top 10 Relationship Words That Aren't Translatable Into English | Marriage 3.0 | Big Think

"Ilunga (Bantu): A person who is willing to forgive abuse the first time; tolerate it the second time, but never a third time.

Apparently, in 2004, this word won the award as the world’s most difficult to translate. Although at first, I thought it did have a clear phrase equivalent in English: It’s the “three strikes and you’re out” policy. But ilunga conveys a subtler concept, because the feelings are different with each “strike.” The word elegantly conveys the progression toward intolerance, and the different shades of emotion that we feel at each stop along the way.

Ilunga captures what I’ve described as the shade of gray complexity in marriages—Not abusive marriages, but marriages that involve infidelity, for example. We’ve got tolerance, within reason, and we’ve got gradations of tolerance, and for different reasons. And then, we have our limit. The English language to describe this state of limits and tolerance flattens out the complexity into black and white, or binary code. You put up with it, or you don’t. You “stick it out,” or not.

Ilunga restores the gray scale, where many of us at least occasionally find ourselves in relationships, trying to love imperfect people who’ve failed us and whom we ourselves have failed."


----------



## jh52

Wazza said:


> You have to process this stuff and it takes what it takes. It does get better. Never goes away, but gets much better. My situation is different from yours (longer time out from the affair, handled it differently - I think you are doing better, and no counselling).
> 
> For me it's cyclical. I put things to bed for a while and then later they come back. So joining TAM has me doing another round of opening up and processing things. I think it's easier for me since it was so long ago, and some aspects of the affair it's almost like it happened to two different people, not us.
> 
> I think there are three reasons I find it necessary to revisit my wife's affair.
> 
> The first is because I see an inconsistency or a missing fact and I need to fill in the gap.
> 
> The second is because it hurts and I need to let it out.
> 
> The third (and this isn't at all often, but I am ashamed to say it's true) is that occasionally I get angry at her, and talking about it is letting out my hurt but there is also a small part of me that brings it up to hurt her, like in any situation where you are fighting and get angry.
> 
> Now, if I am filling in the gaps, I organise my thoughts as much as I can, and then talk to my wife. Firstly, because that spares her pain and dumb questions. Secondly because my wife was not forthcoming with truth, and I target the questions I ask carefully to bring truth out.
> 
> If I'm hurting, I try not to lean on her with my pain when I can because it hurts her so much. I write my thoughts down. This forces me to organise them and deal with the pain and also lets me write exactly what I am thinking, without filtering my words to avoid hurt as I would have to if talking to her. That plus channeling the pain into physical exercise, like a lot of people say. And for me, when she hold me and loves me the pain goes away. So I've told her she has to do that a lot  And I have someone else who has also been a victim of an affair, and we talk about it. We have enough similarity that we can understand each other to talk this stuff, and I find talking it through with the other person removes my need to talk it through with my wife. Don't know if the counsellor is supposed to fill that need with you, but if not, you should find someone.
> 
> And if I am trying to hurt her.....well I just have to not do that. I never start out with that intention and when it arises, which isn't often, it arises from anger. So I have to not talk to her about it when I am angry.
> 
> She feels like saying it to hurt her is a much bigger part than it really is. Dunno what to do about that, but maybe if it's part of what you do you should talk to EI about it, as an act of support to her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, yeah, EI did wrong. I know. What you are saying is common wisdom on TAM, but I reckon it's a dangerous perspective.
> 
> TAM is full of BS and WS tend to get a bad time, but if the point is rebuilding a relationship, how the WS feels and why they did what they did are vitally important. If B1 went back to how he was pre-affair then it's a matter of time till either another affair or the marriage falls apart.
> 
> Would B1 have been any happier if EI had left him rather than having an affair?
> 
> You ignore EI's needs and you are ignoring the future of the marriage. Put her under too much pressure and she is human, she will break. As would I, as would you.
> 
> Not being all religious, but because it's a thought provoking lesson regardless of your religious beliefs. When Christ was walking around Israel, adultery was punished by stoning someone to death. An adulterous woman was brought before him and they said "Should we kill her" and he said "Of course. So the one of you who hasn't ever done the wrong thing, they get to throw the first stone." Funnily enough, no-one there felt they qualified. Maybe you are of such standing that you could throw the first stone at EI, Regret, CSS, my wife or the others. But I'm sure not.
> 
> Life is too short to spend time blaming them instead of loving them. Forgiveness is work, and hatred is easy, but forgiveness is much more powerful.


Hi Wazza -- I was going to ignore your post and reply back to me -- but I am not.

I am sorry you feel what I wrote was an attack on EI. I wish you have read this whole thread and any other thread (CSS, Dig, Pidge) before saying I was throwing anyone under the bus and casting stones at the WS.

If I have done anything on this forum -- is to totally support any reconciliation. EI, CSS, Regret and Pidge can all testify to that. The reason I support these four is because I can see the hurt they caused by reading their words, there actions with their husbands to help get them through this, their sincerity, but most importantly, them having learned from a horrible mistake. 

Go back and read my posts before you come on here and start giving me some crap. I 100% support B1 and EI, Calvin and CSS, Dig and Regret and Joe and Pidge.

I posted my answer in regards to B1's POST and his feelings -- but if you ask me if there is any reason that I would accept for any spouse cheating -- I would say absolutely NO. There is never a reason to bring in a 3rd party into your marriage -- and if you read TAM -- EI, CSS, Regret, and Pidge are only a few who are trying and succeeding at a new marriage. They are lucky and they know that not everyone gets a 2nd chance.


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> I understand Empty wanting you to be all better because honestly I feel the same way. I love what we have now and don't wanna look back. I don't wanna look at the negative from him or me from the past. I want us to feel happy that we are more connected now and thankful and blessed that we are still together..yet I understand it's not easy for the BS to forget. I feel we are always(us waywards that want R soo bad) on standby ready to comfort those horrible thoughts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very well said CSS !!


----------



## CantSitStill

Love your support Jh52, you've always been honest and have been real with us. I prefer that, no sugarcoating. You have always been supportive from the beginning. Thank you for your encouragement 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

jh52 said:


> Hi Wazza -- I was going to ignore your post and reply back to me -- but I am not.
> 
> I am sorry you feel what I wrote was an attack on EI. I wish you have read this whole thread and any other thread (CSS, Dig, Pidge) before saying I was throwing anyone under the bus and casting stones at the WS.
> 
> If I have done anything on this forum -- is to totally support any reconciliation. EI, CSS, Regret and Pidge can all testify to that. The reason I support these four is because I can see the hurt they caused by reading their words, there actions with their husbands to help get them through this, their sincerity, but most importantly, them having learned from a horrible mistake.
> 
> Go back and read my posts before you come on here and start giving me some crap. I 100% support B1 and EI, Calvin and CSS, Dig and Regret and Joe and Pidge.
> 
> I posted my answer in regards to B1's POST and his feelings -- but if you ask me if there is any reason that I would accept for any spouse cheating -- I would say absolutely NO. There is never a reason to bring in a 3rd party into your marriage -- and if you read TAM -- EI, CSS, Regret, and Pidge are only a few who are trying and succeeding at a new marriage. They are lucky and they know that not everyone gets a 2nd chance.


For the record, I have read the whole thread.

I wasn't giving you crap, and I didn't interpret your post as an attack on EI. I'm scratching my head as to why you thought I was. I note Calvin liked your post, so I assume I said something wrong, and I just don't see what it was. Sorry about that. It would help me if you explained what I said that gives you that impression.

I did not say cheating was acceptable. I said that forgiveness is a better basis for rebuilding than blame and punishment. The point of the Jesus story was not the focus on the stoning, but that when it all came down to it, all the people getting ready to stone the woman had to admit their own faults. 

Again, sorry for whatever it is I said that hurt you or appeared to be a criticism. That was not my intent.

I'm glad you spoke up instead of ignoring me. Maybe gives me a chance to repair whatever I said wrong!


----------



## calvin

I dont see where jh gave anyone crap,unless I missed it but I know that isnt jh's style.
He is supportive and very helpfull to the bs and the ws.Always has been since I've know him,coming up on a year here soon.
Did I miss something? Or am I doing too much overtime. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

jh52 said:


> Go back and read my posts before you come on here and start giving me some crap. I 100% support B1 and EI, Calvin and CSS, Dig and Regret and Joe and Pidge.





calvin said:


> I dont see where jh gave anyone crap,unless I missed it but I know that isnt jh's style.
> He is supportive and very helpfull to the bs and the ws.Always has been since I've know him,coming up on a year here soon.
> Did I miss something? Or am I doing too much overtime.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quote 1 is what I was responding to.

Not accusing jh of anything. I said something that appears to have upset a few of you and I genuinely don't get what it was. I was trying to explain a concept that has been very important to me in reconciliation. 

Guess all I can do is say I'm sorry for whatever it was.


----------



## CantSitStill

I don't know I'm kinda lost, alls I know is Jh52 has done so much for Calvin and I whether thru pm or in our thread and I thank the Lord for people like him when he has so much going on in his own life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Sorry guys,I'm lost.
No Wassa,I dont see where you said anything wrong,I'm tired as hell.Did I miss something here?
Jh? I cant say enough about that guy,strong work ethic,up insanely early like me and the man loves his wife,does an excellent job of taking care of her.
Oh and he's a Bears fan.Did I mention he hates the Packers?
We're all here for help or to help....Its all good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Originally Posted by jh52 
Sorry – no pass given to EI – even if it would have been 10 years – never ever a reason to step out of a marriage. She should have divorced you if she wanted out. 


Yeah, yeah, EI did wrong. I know. What you are saying is common wisdom on TAM, but I reckon it's a dangerous perspective.

TAM is full of BS and WS tend to get a bad time, but if the point is rebuilding a relationship, how the WS feels and why they did what they did are vitally important. If B1 went back to how he was pre-affair then it's a matter of time till either another affair or the marriage falls apart.

Would B1 have been any happier if EI had left him rather than having an affair?

You ignore EI's needs and you are ignoring the future of the marriage. Put her under too much pressure and she is human, she will break. As would I, as would you.

Not being all religious, but because it's a thought provoking lesson regardless of your religious beliefs. When Christ was walking around Israel, adultery was punished by stoning someone to death. An adulterous woman was brought before him and they said "Should we kill her" and he said "Of course. So the one of you who hasn't ever done the wrong thing, they get to throw the first stone." Funnily enough, no-one there felt they qualified. Maybe you are of such standing that you could throw the first stone at EI, Regret, CSS, my wife or the others. But I'm sure not.

Life is too short to spend time blaming them instead of loving them. Forgiveness is work, and hatred is easy, but forgiveness is much more powerful. 

Wazza == I highlighted in blue what I said and you quoted me. Then you went on .....read in red what you wrote.

I took it as not supporting EI, Regret, and CSS. I have never said that forgiveness is not work -- I give B1/EI, Dig/Regret and Calvin/CSS all the credit in the world to work on their new marriages. 

Maybe since we never traded POSTS before I did not know how to take your words. I believe in God and agree with you -- we are all sinners and should not judge. 

Guess that is where I got upset because I don't ever remember judging EI, Regret or CSS or cast a stone. Matter of fact I have been supportive, however very direct with all of them -- they know I support them 100% -- but don't sugar coat and am direct.

Guess it was a misunderstanding --- we are good.


----------



## CantSitStill

Us WS already are aware that we took the wrong route. But I've said it a zillion times so no reason for any of us to dwell on all that so no worries about comments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I've not seen jh judge anyone,I have seen him quaterback it up and go for the win with both spouses.
His advice is pretty damn sound even if some stubborn people resist it ( me ).
He'll take you to the wood shed if needed but he doesnt have a heavy hand.
"yea without sin,cast the first stone"
Good stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Night all -- it's been a long week.


----------



## calvin

Night jh,that is has.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Morning folks ---

B1 -- hope you and EI had a great date. 

What movie are you going to today ??

You two need some FUN -- have a great weekend.


----------



## Wazza

jh52 said:


> Originally Posted by jh52
> Sorry – no pass given to EI – even if it would have been 10 years – never ever a reason to step out of a marriage. She should have divorced you if she wanted out.
> 
> 
> Yeah, yeah, EI did wrong. I know. What you are saying is common wisdom on TAM, but I reckon it's a dangerous perspective.
> 
> TAM is full of BS and WS tend to get a bad time, but if the point is rebuilding a relationship, how the WS feels and why they did what they did are vitally important. If B1 went back to how he was pre-affair then it's a matter of time till either another affair or the marriage falls apart.
> 
> Would B1 have been any happier if EI had left him rather than having an affair?
> 
> You ignore EI's needs and you are ignoring the future of the marriage. Put her under too much pressure and she is human, she will break. As would I, as would you.
> 
> Not being all religious, but because it's a thought provoking lesson regardless of your religious beliefs. When Christ was walking around Israel, adultery was punished by stoning someone to death. An adulterous woman was brought before him and they said "Should we kill her" and he said "Of course. So the one of you who hasn't ever done the wrong thing, they get to throw the first stone." Funnily enough, no-one there felt they qualified. Maybe you are of such standing that you could throw the first stone at EI, Regret, CSS, my wife or the others. But I'm sure not.
> 
> Life is too short to spend time blaming them instead of loving them. Forgiveness is work, and hatred is easy, but forgiveness is much more powerful.
> 
> Wazza == I highlighted in blue what I said and you quoted me. Then you went on .....read in red what you wrote.
> 
> I took it as not supporting EI, Regret, and CSS. I have never said that forgiveness is not work -- I give B1/EI, Dig/Regret and Calvin/CSS all the credit in the world to work on their new marriages.
> 
> Maybe since we never traded POSTS before I did not know how to take your words. I believe in God and agree with you -- we are all sinners and should not judge.
> 
> Guess that is where I got upset because I don't ever remember judging EI, Regret or CSS or cast a stone. Matter of fact I have been supportive, however very direct with all of them -- they know I support them 100% -- but don't sugar coat and am direct.
> 
> Guess it was a misunderstanding --- we are good.


Thanks. I was trying to write about the importance of forgiveness and the vehicle that helped me achieve it.

I can see now how you would have taken it I was writing about judgement. That wasn't what I was saying, and I'm sorry that my words gave you that impression.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> Morning folks ---
> 
> B1 -- hope you and EI had a great date.
> 
> What movie are you going to today ??
> 
> You two need some FUN -- have a great weekend.


Good morning...

I got up this morning around 8am washed the car, came in and did some Photoshop work and realized I had not thought about the A for several hours..a WOW moment for sure. Can't wait for that to be a whole day.

YES, we had a great date and a fantastic evening once home...no kids which is VERY rare.

EI wants to see the new movie with Clint Eastwood, the baseball one. So I guess that's what we will see.

Hope everyone has a great weekend, we ALL deserve it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

group hug time


----------



## Vanguard

I look at it this way. 

God made man, and it was good. Man walked God's path, and it was good. Someone offered an alternative to that path. We chose the new, shiny offering. It was not good. 

People think that we were banished from the Garden of Eden, but I think that indicates a misunderstanding of what Eden truly is. Eden is fellowship with God. God didn't banish us; we chose to be unfaithful to Him. 

Reconciliation, inasmuch as the Greek New Testament and LXX state, is God's plan to help us reattain what we threw away. God used many devices, such as the Tabernacle and the Temple. He used those things to show us that they couldn't work- that our own devices and attempts were insufficient. 

So then He sent the true Temple. Christ. And we are able to attain reconciliation through Him. 

To me, reconciliation is the attempt to reattain what we've thrown away. Whether it be a good relationship with our spouse, our child, or our God.


----------



## anotherone

that i accept you as my equal, my teammate. i welcome your suggestions and hold nothing over your head.


----------



## SomedayDig

Just wanted to stop and check in with everyone. Regret and I have been doing well this past week. The extreme anger that I had for a couple weeks last month seems to have dissipated since around the first of September. We still talk daily, but the intensity of my questioning is pretty much gone and its almost like I've settled into the acceptance stage of the grieving process.

I have been taking Paxil now for a little over a week and it definitely seems to have taken care of my obsessive thoughts. I no longer sit and think about one particular thing for 2 hours at a time. Yeah...that sucked when that would happen. Regret would see me in my dark place and I'm sure it made her feel pretty sad. It's kind of weird though, cuz for the past 6+ months obsessing about her affair was a daily thing. With the medication I don't. 

Anyway, I have to get the kids on the bus and get to class. Last week of class, so I'm pretty happy to not have to go by that hotel for a while!


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> Just wanted to stop and check in with everyone. Regret and I have been doing well this past week. The extreme anger that I had for a couple weeks last month seems to have dissipated since around the first of September. We still talk daily, but the intensity of my questioning is pretty much gone and its almost like I've settled into the acceptance stage of the grieving process.
> 
> I have been taking Paxil now for a little over a week and it definitely seems to have taken care of my obsessive thoughts. I no longer sit and think about one particular thing for 2 hours at a time. Yeah...that sucked when that would happen. Regret would see me in my dark place and I'm sure it made her feel pretty sad. It's kind of weird though, cuz for the past 6+ months obsessing about her affair was a daily thing. With the medication I don't.
> 
> Anyway, I have to get the kids on the bus and get to class. Last week of class, so I'm pretty happy to not have to go by that hotel for a while!


Glad to hear this Dig. 

Continue best thoughts and prayers to you and Regret for continued progress.

One hour at a time -- one day at a time !!


----------



## B1

Awesome to hear Dig. I am so glad to hear you have reached this stage, what a great place it must be.

EI knows that dark place I go to all to well. She can see it in my eyes when I am there. But...I didn't go there as much this weekend.


----------



## B1

anotherone said:


> that i accept you as my equal, my teammate. i welcome your suggestions and hold nothing over your head.


_"hold nothing over your head"...._now that is reconciliation!


----------



## anotherone

"hold nothing over your head..." i don't want to hold something over my wife's head. will i always remember, yes. will it always hurt, yes! but for me to fully reconcile i would have to be at a point were i could take her getting mad at me (for anything, not taking out trash, etc...) without lashing back, "well, you had an affair!"


----------



## EI

anotherone said:


> "hold nothing over your head..." i don't want to hold something over my wife's head. will i always remember, yes. will it always hurt, yes! but *for me to fully reconcile i would have to be at a point were i could take her getting mad at me (for anything, not taking out trash, etc...) without lashing back, "well, you had an affair!"*


That sounds like a beautiful place to be (state of mind.) I hope that B1 and I reach it someday. Not so much for myself, but for him. He doesn't say cruel and unkind things to me, at all, anymore. Although, I am always aware of the underlying sadness in his heart and on his mind. Without the words ever being spoken, I know that as he and I watched our precious little grandson toddle across the living room all day, yesterday, dazzling everyone with his adorable little antics, that B1 was thinking, "This moment would be wonderful if only my heart wasn't breaking." I know that as he and I get ready to go out on our "dates" every weekend, that we now make the time for, that every time B1 smiles and tells me that I look beautiful and that he loves me, that he is thinking, "This moment would be wonderful if only my heart wasn't breaking." 

You'll stop 'lashing back' when your heart stops breaking. I hope and pray that one day B1's heart is no longer broken and that the devastating pain from my betrayal is just a distant, unpleasant memory that has been replaced with new happiness, new memories, new joy and a new love that isn't tarnished with the bitterness of betrayal. 

I love you, B1 with every ounce of my being. Thank you for loving me, too.


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> That sounds like a beautiful place to be (state of mind.) I hope that B1 and I reach it someday. Not so much for myself, but for him. He doesn't say cruel and unkind things to me, at all, anymore. Although, I am always aware of the underlying sadness in his heart and on his mind. Without the words ever being spoken, I know that as he and I watched our precious little grandson toddle across the living room all day, yesterday, dazzling everyone with his adorable little antics, that B1 was thinking, "This moment would be wonderful if only my heart wasn't breaking." I know that as he and I get ready to go out on our "dates" every weekend, that we now make the time for, that every time B1 smiles and tells me that I look beautiful and that he loves me, that he is thinking, "This moment would be wonderful if only my heart wasn't breaking."
> 
> You'll stop 'lashing back' when your heart stops breaking. I hope and pray that one day B1's heart is no longer broken and that the devastating pain from my betrayal is just a distant, unpleasant memory that has been replaced with new happiness, new memories, new joy and a new love that isn't tarnished with the bitterness of betrayal.
> 
> I love you, B1 with every ounce of my being. Thank you for loving me, too.


Very well put Empty.I just wonder if a certain amount of hurt will always be there or if it really will go away for good,or will it just be bearable.
I know its possible to be happy again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Very well put Empty.*I just wonder if a certain amount of hurt will always be there or if it really will go away for good,or will it just be bearable.*
> I know its possible to be happy again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I don't know the answer, Calvin, and it's a heavy, if not earned, cross to bear for the WS, but not nearly as heavy as the cross of having been betrayed, I'm sure. :'(


----------



## anotherone

i'm not there emptyinside.... would love to be and hopefully will someday. if i get there then i will know reconciliation is complete.


----------



## Acabado

anotherone said:


> "hold nothing over your head..." i don't want to hold something over my wife's head. will i always remember, yes. will it always hurt, yes! but for me to fully reconcile i would have to be at a point were i could take her getting mad at me (for anything, not taking out trash, etc...) without lashing back, "well, you had an affair!"


This coment is great. It toke me a while to start fighting fair.


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> I don't know the answer, Calvin, and it's a heavy, if not earned, cross to bear for the WS, but not nearly as heavy as the cross of having been betrayed, I'm sure. :'(


I like to think that CSS will make it all go away,she's doing a pretty good job so far.
I know a WS doesnt want the A hanging over their head forever,anymore than the BS wants to live with the pain forever....guess we'll find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

Well, the affair WILL be there. Nothing anyone says or does can ever make it have not happened. The marriage will always exist in two parts, BC (before cheating) and AD (after D day). Three parts, really, because there's the time during which he was cheating but when I didn't know. I think the trick is to use it as a starting point for positive things. I can look back now and see that both of us made mistakes BC, and I can learn from that, and so can he. We can talk about it as the time before he cheated without me triggering or him feeling attacked. I don't think anyone should try and pretend it never happened. Because you can't. You have to get to the point where you can uncover the wound and see that it's healing, and you don't rip the scab off in the process.


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## calvin

Not go away but I guess I mean to the point where you rarely think about it and it doesnt hurt anymore.
It does help me for her to know WTF was she thinking and to know that he's not even close to being a man,he had to lie about everything to build himself up and brag about all the things he never did or was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

calvin said:


> Not go away but I guess I mean to the point where you rarely think about it and it doesnt hurt anymore.
> It does help me for her to know WTF was she thinking and to know that he's not even close to being a man,he had to lie about everything to build himself up and brag about all the things he never did or was.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry to interupt. One of my fellow Marines had his foot blown off during the same IED explosion where I was wounded. I get to see him a lot now that I live in Chicago. I asked him just yesterday if it still hurts, and he says no but the memory of the pain is always with him. I think that could be said for a lot of BS's, including myself. The pain itself will be gone with time, but the memory of that pain becomes a part of our emotional makeup.


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## calvin

Badblood said:


> Sorry to interupt. One of my fellow Marines had his foot blown off during the same IED explosion where I was wounded. I get to see him a lot now that I live in Chicago. I asked him just yesterday if it still hurts, and he says no but the memory of the pain is always with him. I think that could be said for a lot of BS's, including myself. The pain itself will be gone with time, but the memory of that pain becomes a part of our emotional makeup.


The memory of the pain?
Yeah,that makes sense.
Chicago huh? Maybe we got us another Bears fan.
I'm at work in Hegewisch neighborhood now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Having been both a Loyal Spouse and a Disloyal Spouse, here's what happened for me. 

I think like every Loyal Spouse, when I got the proof and he moved out to leave us and live with his Wistress, I thought I would die...the hurt was SO intense. I cried for 3 days straight 24 hours a day before I could stop! But I didn't just cry and concentrate on the pain either. He left us with a mortgage and bills that were 3 months behind and I had no job, so I had to hustle to save the house and keep things from being turned off. I HAD TO. Once I got past what I would call "just surviving" I had that angry period, and I'm not an angry person so it really scared me, and I wondered how long it would last. I had the good sense to get myself some counseling and attend a support group so I met some lady friends and had a bit of help to get my head on straight. 

Then one day--maybe about a year after he left--I took the kids to the park. It was one of those parks with swings and a merry-go-round...you know the kind. And I thought to myself, "I've always loved to swing--why not?" and I got on the swing and was swinging really high and having fun and feeling happy. That's when it hit me like a brick: I WAS HAPPY. My husband left me, we were in the middle of a divorce that wasn't horrific but he was a bit of a jerk, and here is was...HAPPY!!  That seemed so WRONG! I was supposed to be hurt and sad and upset and mad, but I just wasn't. 

And that was when I realized that it's like graduating. Remember the day you graduated--maybe from high school or college? I always thought that graduating would be this BIG THING and it would be really important and life-changing, but you know what? It was a busy day and got to see lots of people but in real life it was a 24 hour day! And afterward, the day after graduating, I was still me--I mean it wasn't as if the True Me changed. 

An affair is a lot like that. You think you should feel hurt, sad, angry, mad, pain but gradually as you actually put your time and thoughts into other things you can go an hour, a morning, a day and not even think about it...and then one day you realize "WOW! Look where I am. I'm happy right now where I am." And the True You that is YOU before the affair is still who you are after you recover, but there's a diploma now. You don't forget it. You don't lose it. It's like another layer added onto "who you are" and you've changed maybe yourself or your habits to learn from it. 

Does that make sense? 

~*~*~*~*~*~

As a Disloyal Spouse I will say this--it's weird because of course I sit here and write to you guys...and I have a website and blog all about infidelity. I don't think a day goes by that I don't think about it, even when I'm not here. BUT it's not like I feel overwhelming, crushing guilt or regret. Now that it's years ago, I think about it like a memory; I wonder who in the world that woman was because it wasn't me (it was but I mean it was so out of character and not "like" the True Me); and I feel the same sort of shame I feel for having drunk too much as a young kid or any of the other sinful kind of behavior I've done. It doesn't define me though. And it honestly DID make our marriage better and stronger! And it taught me a lot about my Dear Hubby and why I am so grateful for him. If I didn't write here I still think I'd think about it every day, but it would be along these lines: 

"Wow I was not faithful to a man like that. WHAT was I thinking? I am so grateful to have another day to love him."


----------



## anotherone

Emily ****inson summed pain up for me...

Pain has an element of blank;
It cannot recollect
When it began, or if there was
A time when it was not.

It has no future but itself,
Its infinite realms contain
Its past, enlightened to perceive
New periods of pain.


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## EI

Affaircare said:


> "Wow I was not faithful to a man like that. WHAT was I thinking? I am so grateful to have another day to love him."


THIS :iagree:


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## EI

anotherone said:


> Emily ****inson summed pain up for me...
> 
> Pain has an element of blank;
> It cannot recollect
> When it began, or if there was
> A time when it was not.
> 
> It has no future but itself,
> Its infinite realms contain
> Its past, enlightened to perceive
> New periods of pain.


That is so sad...... :'(


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## Regret214

Just wanted to say to everyone! I'm still around, lurking, but with what little time I have at home now that I am back at work, I'd rather be with the kids and Dig and not on TAM. Don't get me wrong....I love you all....I just need to be present for my family! All's good here!


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## calvin

Morning guys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

I like sleep in Sunday better than tired Tuesday!


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## jh52

Regret214 said:


> Just wanted to say to everyone! I'm still around, lurking, but with what little time I have at home now that I am back at work, I'd rather be with the kids and Dig and not on TAM. Don't get me wrong....I love you all....I just need to be present for my family! All's good here!


Hi Regret -- good to hear from you. Take care of Dig and the family. That's #1.


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> I like sleep in Sunday better than tired Tuesday!


If you would get to sleep at a decent hour -- then ......


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## EI

jh52 said:


> If you would get to sleep at a decent hour -- then ......


 - Perhaps!

Have a good day, jh, and give us an update later.....


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## calvin

Too much football,cant go to bed early
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

good morning to all of you on this thread. it is hard for me to find as much time to visit TAM as i would like, but it occurred to me that perhaps i could speak for myself and other semi-lurkers in saying: thank you for sharing your journeys. 

reconciliation is SO hard. obviously, i'm doing it because i believe that it's worth it -- but i'm astonished at how hard it is, and for how long. 

i'm the WS, 6 months past D-day, 2 months past 2nd TT D-day, 2 weeks past more TT.

as many of you have observed, every TT is truly another devastation. they are almost worse in some ways, since they represent the discovery of deception that was going on AFTER we both supposedly committed to acknowledging our pre-A failures and were both supposedly working on the relationship and WHILE i was half-dead before his eyes with pain and shock and WHILE he was voicing concern about all this, along with his commitment to reconciliation.

hearing some of the remorseful fWSs here speak about how they could have done this -- the TTing, i mean -- is about the only thing that has kept me from seeing TT as a dealbreaker. As we frequently acknowledge, there is no justifying this per se! But your reflections help to humanize all aspects of this process for me.

many of you seem so beautifully open to this process. my WS, on the other hand, initially struggles with my demands for transparency, and feels at times that i am asking him to live the rest of his life as an ex-con with one of those ankle-band trackers on. he asks me, okay, after i do this, what will be next? when will it ever be enough? i wonder this myself.

he hasn't refused any of my requests -- but he is powerfully rankled by them and only concedes after making this known. 

*sigh* 

again, thank you for your insights and inspiration!


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## anotherone

i told my wife: "I want you to do exactly what I want and need you to do without me telling you exactly what I want and need you to do." of course to her it made no sense. does it to you?


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## SomedayDig

Good morning all. To follow up with what Regret wrote...yeah, during the summer it was easy to chat at different times here, but being back to work (both of us) leaves less time than we would like together. We cherish our time together and I think that is a good thing.

Margrace...yes, the TT is probably the most difficult thing to deal with. Just when you think you know everything - cuz the WS says they told you all - you hear more. It's a set back. And it hurts something fierce. I told Regret the last time that she almost killed me and us. It wasn't even WHAT she told me. It was that she was withholding it knowingly. That...is lying by omission. Thus, the lying is what kills. It's difficult stuff this reconciliation bit. However, if both of you are truly committed, then keep working. Let him know its not what he tells you...it's THAT he tells you.

Anotherone...makes sense to me. Although, it is very hard at times to get the wayward to recognize what they need to do. If she doesn't understand what you said above, say it again to her and then say - "Here...let me help you with an example: I want and need you to tell the truth, but I don't want to have to tell you that I want and need you to tell the truth. Now do you get it?"

Time to get the kids on the bus and head to class. See ya's soon!


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## B1

anotherone said:


> i told my wife: "I want you to do exactly what I want and need you to do without me telling you exactly what I want and need you to do." of course to her it made no sense. does it to you?


:iagree:

Yes..Yes..and yes...Well put, and it makes PERFECT sense to me!!!


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## B1

Sometimes as a BS your just moving along and everything is fine and peachy, you are listening to music in the car or something like that then...*BAM, it hits you like a frigging gigantic brick in the face, then, this mule appears and kicks you right in the balls, then, this huge ape appears and punches you in the gut.*...my wife had an affair! She actually did it, she really did it, she lied and deceived me over and over..and was with another man…..You sit there stunned for a moment, dazed like it just happened, your stomach hurts, your heart hurts. Then BAM it's back to where you were before all those things attacked you. Your still dazed a little, your coming out of the hurt and pain you just felt so intensely, and then you go on about your day, and no one ever knows what you just went through but you


----------



## Exsquid

betrayed1 said:


> Sometimes as a BS your just moving along and everything is fine and peachy, you are listening to music in the car or something like that then...*BAM, it hits you like a frigging gigantic brick in the face, then, this mule appears and kicks you right in the balls, then, this huge ape appears and punches you in the gut.*...my wife had an affair! She actually did it, she really did it, she lied and deceived me over and over..and was with another man…..You sit there stunned for a moment, dazed like it just happened, your stomach hurts, your heart hurts. Then BAM it's back to where you were before all those things attacked you. Your still dazed a little, your coming out of the hurt and pain you just felt so intensely, and then you go on about your day, and no one ever knows what you just went through but you



I couldn't have described it any better. Man this S**t sucks!


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## calvin

Exsquid said:


> I couldn't have described it any better. Man this S**t sucks!


Thats an understatement
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Exsquid

calvin said:


> Thats an understatement
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Well, if I described it how I really wanted to I'd no doubt be banned for a while.


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## calvin

Exsquid said:


> Well, if I described it how I really wanted to I'd no doubt be banned for a while.


Yep,I hear that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> *BAM, it hits you like a frigging gigantic brick in the face, then, this mule appears and kicks you right in the balls, then, this huge ape appears and punches you in the gut.*





Exsquid said:


> I couldn't have described it any better. Man this S**t sucks!





calvin said:


> Thats an understatement
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, fellas, if you are describing your wives as a frigging gigantic brick, a mule, and _"huge"_ ape, no less, then you're gonna have some problems _later_..............  Jus' kiddin'.... jus' a little attempt at some humor..... :scratchhead:  

_I'm, I'm done, now...._


_P.S. B1, the old biting, seizure-having, incontinent dog jumped up on your side of the bed...... I'm washing everything, now....... k???,,,,,, um, and, and..... I Love you! <3_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Sometimes as a BS your just moving along and everything is fine and peachy, you are listening to music in the car or something like that then...*BAM, it hits you like a frigging gigantic brick in the face, then, this mule appears and kicks you right in the balls, then, this huge ape appears and punches you in the gut.*...my wife had an affair! She actually did it, she really did it, she lied and deceived me over and over..and was with another man…..You sit there stunned for a moment, dazed like it just happened, your stomach hurts, your heart hurts. Then BAM it's back to where you were before all those things attacked you. Your still dazed a little, your coming out of the hurt and pain you just felt so intensely, and then you go on about your day, and no one ever knows what you just went through but you


Add getting hit over the head with a 30lbs sledge and you decribed it perfectly B1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> good morning to all of you on this thread. it is hard for me to find as much time to visit TAM as i would like, but it occurred to me that perhaps i could speak for myself and other semi-lurkers in saying: thank you for sharing your journeys.


I, sincerely hope, if nothing else, that when couples share their stories, together, on TAM, as it unfolds, in real time, that it might help others who are going through a similar journey. It wasn't my intention for B1 (Betrayed1) to stumble upon my original thread, but he did, within the first 2 days of my posting, I think, and I truly believe that we would not have come this far without it. Although, in the first few weeks, of posting here, as a WS, I would not have made that statement.



margrace said:


> reconciliation is SO hard. obviously, i'm doing it because i believe that it's worth it -- but i'm astonished at how hard it is, and for how long.
> 
> *i'm the WS*, 6 months past D-day, 2 months past 2nd TT D-day, 2 weeks past more TT.


First things first, before the veteran TAM_ers_ grab their torches and start chasing you down..... , *you are the BS *(Betrayed Spouse) *not the WS* (Wayward Spouse.) I don't know if that was just a typo or if someone can direct you to the thread with all of the correct "infidelity" lingo.



margrace said:


> as many of you have observed, every TT is truly another devastation. they are almost worse in some ways, since they represent the discovery of deception that was going on AFTER we both supposedly committed to acknowledging our pre-A failures and were both supposedly working on the relationship and WHILE i was half-dead before his eyes with pain and shock and WHILE he was voicing concern about all this, along with his commitment to reconciliation.
> 
> hearing some of the remorseful fWSs here speak about how they could have done this -- the TTing, i mean -- is about the only thing that has kept me from seeing TT as a dealbreaker. As we frequently acknowledge, there is no justifying this per se! But your reflections help to humanize all aspects of this process for me.
> 
> many of you seem so beautifully open to this process. my WS, on the other hand, initially struggles with my demands for transparency, and feels at times that i am asking him to live the rest of his life as an ex-con with one of those ankle-band trackers on. he asks me, okay, after i do this, what will be next? when will it ever be enough? i wonder this myself.
> 
> he hasn't refused any of my requests -- but he is powerfully rankled by them and only concedes after making this known.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> again, thank you for your insights and inspiration!


The "trickle truth" is/was definitely an issue for all of the WS's that I am aware of. Obviously, the BS wants the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as quickly as the WS can spit the words out. As the WS, I can tell you that, in the first several weeks after D-Day, I wasn't sure that I thought the marriage could be saved or that I wanted the marriage to be saved. My thinking was that if we were going to go our separate ways, then why tell my BS things that were only going to hurt him more than he was already hurting. I knew, immediately, that he was devastated and that I was sorry that he was hurting. Then, soon after, the realization that "I" was the one that was causing him this pain began to eat at my soul. This may make me sound dense, but the truth is/was, I was so caught up in my own pain for such a long time, before and during my affair, that I was NOT thinking of him or of how my affair was going to affect him, in fact, I never intended for him to know. I was planning to leave him next year when our youngest graduated from high school (whether my relationship with my former AP worked out or not) I was only thinking of myself, and what I thought was best for my children (yeah, that didn't work out the way I thought it would..... :scratchhead It took several weeks, if not longer, before I reached the point of not just being sorry that he was hurting and that I was the cause of his hurt, until I reached the point of being truly remorseful, and realized how wrong and selfish that I was, that I entered into this affair while I was still married.

Then, a miracle happened..... our story is long, but it's all here, in three different threads. B1 won my heart all over again and then the truth, the whole truth had to be told. I was terrified. The things that I feared telling him the most, actually, seemed at the time, to affect him the least.... men and women "think" differently. I feared revealing the emotional aspect of the relationship. Because, to me, that represented the greatest threat to our "newly" forming marriage. I didn't trickle truth to be intentionally cruel, I trickled some things between counseling sessions, and I, actually, told B1 that there were things that I wouldn't discuss until after counseling. But, because of TAM, because of marriage counseling, individual counseling, and our genuine desire to create a new and better marriage, I did tell him everything that he wanted to know. With the last bit of information being a land line phone record that did not come in until 2 months after D-Day. I still maintained some "very limited" phone contact with the AP for about three weeks after D-Day (that only I initiated.) Early on, B1 had mentioned getting the land line phone records, so without hesitating, I ordered them. When they finally arrived, I did not tell him, immediately, because we had a marriage counseling session coming up that week. I took a highlighter and highlighted every single phone call.... the date, time, and length of the call was on the record. I wrote down beside each call exactly what the conservation was about and took them into our counseling session. We briefly discussed it, but the counselor suggested that he take the records and shred them and that we move forward. I said, "No." So, I brought them home and put them away. I told B1 that I didn't want to "keep" them indefinitely because I didn't want to leave behind ANY tangible evidence for our children to have to find some day (although, they know everything, now.) About a month ago, at my insistence, I got them out, and we went through them, line by line, phone call, by phone call. They are, now, in the landfill.

For me, the Trickle Truth, was because it hurt me so much to tell him things that I knew would hurt him. But, there comes a point, if you know that you wish to reconcile, that you MUST do whatever it is that your BS needs you to do in order for them to heal. As a WS, that is the least of what we need to do for someone who is willing to open their heart and give us another chance.


----------



## Hope1964

We had a really hard MC session yesterday. I cried - I haven't cried since November 2010. I yelled things I haven't yelled since D day #1. I feel like I've slipped backwards a long way today 

I need to come up with what I need to feel 'safe'. He was supposed to think about the fact that he feels guilty for things that he shouldn't. Instead he went home and started writing a bunch of stuff down about his sex addiction. I feel like he wasn't even listening. I don't even feel like emailing with him today.

As I type this I am getting pissed. At him, at myself, at the world, at this whole screwed up existence. It fvcking sucks. WHY do people have to go and cheat?


----------



## calvin

Wish I had the answer,seven months in R and some people tell me I should be over it by now.
Better? Yes.Over it? Getting there. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

calvin said:


> The memory of the pain?
> Yeah,that makes sense.
> Chicago huh? Maybe we got us another Bears fan.
> I'm at work in Hegewisch neighborhood now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cal, I doubt if I will become a Bears fan , anytime soon. I'm one of those long-suffering Raiders fans.


----------



## calvin

Badblood said:


> Cal, I doubt if I will become a Bears fan , anytime soon. I'm one of those long-suffering Raiders fans.


Thats cool,you always stay true to your team,good and bad seasons.
I hate it when people keep jumping ship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Doc Who

Calvin - Do not listen to such bad advice (re: be over it in seven months). It will only bring you to a bad place. The reality is you will heal on your own schedule and screw those that, for whatever reason, think you should heal on theirs.

That ape that punch you in the gut and hit you with a 30lb sledge. Well, he keeps doing it (to some extent) with the trickle lies/truth and as we realize more fully what devastation has happened (face it, we are not mentally able to realize all the **** that the affair causes for at least six months)

So brother, you are doing fine. Suckily fine. But fine nonetheless.


----------



## calvin

Doc Who said:


> Calvin - Do not listen to such bad advice (re: be over it in seven months). It will only bring you to a bad place. The reality is you will heal on your own schedule and screw those that, for whatever reason, think you should heal on theirs.
> 
> That ape that punch you in the gut and hit you with a 30lb sledge. Well, he keeps doing it (to some extent) with the trickle lies/truth and as we realize more fully what devastation has happened (face it, we are not mentally able to realize all the **** that the affair causes for at least six months)
> 
> So brother, you are doing fine. Suckily fine. But fine nonetheless.


I can honestly say they met up four times,kissed and huged ( I know but its true ) the TT lasted three days,there were thousands of text,calls and twenty five I love yous she said to him.
Still hurts,she does realise what she did and how much more damage she almost did.
Sometimes I think I'm getting being numb and getting better confused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> - Perhaps!
> 
> Have a good day, jh, and give us an update later.....


Update on Mrs JH:

Blood work came back T4, Free(Direct) is low. Doctor took 4 more viles of blood and will run special tests towards the thyroid and hormones.

Hour by hour, day by day !!


----------



## calvin

So how is she jh?


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> So how is she jh?


About the same with the speech and comprehension issues. She is handling her health issues alot better -- though we both hope and pray they can find out what causes these seizures/TIA's/episodes without any trigger.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hope1964 said:


> We had a really hard MC session yesterday. I cried - I haven't cried since November 2010. I yelled things I haven't yelled since D day #1. I feel like I've slipped backwards a long way today
> 
> I need to come up with what I need to feel 'safe'. He was supposed to think about the fact that he feels guilty for things that he shouldn't. Instead he went home and started writing a bunch of stuff down about his sex addiction. I feel like he wasn't even listening. I don't even feel like emailing with him today.
> 
> As I type this I am getting pissed. At him, at myself, at the world, at this whole screwed up existence. It fvcking sucks. WHY do people have to go and cheat?


Here's hoping you have a better day tomorrow
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Hope1964 said:


> We had a really hard MC session yesterday. I cried - I haven't cried since November 2010. I yelled things I haven't yelled since D day #1. I feel like I've slipped backwards a long way today
> 
> I need to come up with what I need to feel 'safe'. He was supposed to think about the fact that he feels guilty for things that he shouldn't. Instead he went home and started writing a bunch of stuff down about his sex addiction. I feel like he wasn't even listening. I don't even feel like emailing with him today.
> 
> As I type this I am getting pissed. At him, at myself, at the world, at this whole screwed up existence. It fvcking sucks. WHY do people have to go and cheat?


hope 
...im really sorry you had such a bad hurtful session and day. I wish I had the magic words to help make sense of it all. please hang in there we are here. vent away. not sure what you meant about the feeling guilty statement? can you explain if your up to it.

sounds like he might have focused on himself and his problem...when he should have been focused on you and what he did to you and your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Hope1964 said:


> We had a really hard MC session yesterday. I cried - I haven't cried since November 2010. I yelled things I haven't yelled since D day #1. I feel like I've slipped backwards a long way today
> 
> I need to come up with what I need to feel 'safe'. He was supposed to think about the fact that he feels guilty for things that he shouldn't. Instead he went home and started writing a bunch of stuff down about his sex addiction. I feel like he wasn't even listening. I don't even feel like emailing with him today.
> 
> As I type this I am getting pissed. At him, at myself, at the world, at this whole screwed up existence. It fvcking sucks. WHY do people have to go and cheat?


Hope, I'm so sorry that you're having such a bad day, bad.... everything. Yes, this is hard, there is nothing easy about it. Just the fact that you're attempting this, at all, says so much about your strength of character and commitment. I wish that I had some magic words. I can't relate to your specific situation, as I am not familiar with sex addiction issues, but I do know that the days that MC and IC have been the most difficult have often become turning points for a better understanding of things for B1 and myself. 

Sometimes, the hardest days, and the most painful revelations, have become positives after we sorted through all of the "ugly stuff." 

We're here if you need to vent..... I hope tomorrow is better.

Take Care,
EI <3


----------



## MattMatt

Hope1964 said:


> We had a really hard MC session yesterday. I cried - I haven't cried since November 2010. I yelled things I haven't yelled since D day #1. I feel like I've slipped backwards a long way today
> 
> I need to come up with what I need to feel 'safe'. He was supposed to think about the fact that he feels guilty for things that he shouldn't. Instead he went home and started writing a bunch of stuff down about his sex addiction. I feel like he wasn't even listening. I don't even feel like emailing with him today.
> 
> As I type this I am getting pissed. At him, at myself, at the world, at this whole screwed up existence. It fvcking sucks. WHY do people have to go and cheat?


Sometimes, good people do bad things.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> About the same with the speech and comprehension issues. She is handling her health issues alot better -- though we both hope and pray they can find out what causes these seizures/TIA's/episodes without any trigger.


you two are in our prayers jh. Sure hope and pray they can figure this out soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> Sometimes, good people do bad things.


Thank you for saying that, MM. I am going to try, very hard, to be an example of that. I used to be proud of myself, I used to like the person that I saw in the mirror. I want to, honestly, be able to look in the mirror someday and say, without reservation, "I am a good person, who for a time, made choices that were wrong, foolish, selfish, wreckless, horrible, irreversibly life-changing and devastating to the people that love me and that I love the most in this world. I am not that person and I will never, again, allow myself to behave in such a manner."

I am immeasurably blessed and will be forever grateful that B1, my children, and my in-laws love me and are willing to open their hearts and give me another chance to be the person that I always thought myself to be before I became someone that I no longer recognized. 

I love you, B1! <3


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## calvin

That was ....nice Empty.
I want to say beautiful but I cant.
I feel funky.
That was nice
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> That was ....nice Empty.
> I want to say beautiful but I cant.
> I feel funky.
> That was nice
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're so silly, Calvin........ I think there just might be a little-bitty, teeny, tiny, very miniscule, microscopic, ever-so-small, tear in your eye!!! LOL


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## calvin

no
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

calvin said:


> That was ....nice Empty.
> I want to say beautiful but I cant.
> I feel funky.
> That was nice
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes, you show you really do have a heart -- just open it up my friend -- life is way to short NOT TOO.


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## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> you two are in our prayers jh. Sure hope and pray they can figure this out soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks B1 -- more info about the history of Mrs JH on CSS thread in Private section.


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> sorry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

I just wanted to say how much I still enjoy logging on and reading this thread. 

Hope...as everyone has said, sorry you had a bad day today. Hang tough. We got yer back.

B1 and EI...I really get a lot out of reading your stuff. I know it's tough with the struggle B1. I'm right there with ya, brother...as are a lot of other BS's who may or may not post. You're helping everyone whether you realize it or not by posting your story/struggles.

EI...same with you. It is a good thing for BS's to witness a remorseful wayward spouse talk from the heart. Yes, I've read when you first came here and the flack you took. However, I'm glad to see the lifting of the fog and the work you've done with your husband.

This people...is NOT a cheerleading thread. This is a RECONCILIATION thread. We all hold each other accountable, just as you all did when Regret TT'd me for the last time. THAT is what it's about. Don't ever be fooled.


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## calvin

I'm taking a break for a few days,I came close to letting my emotions out.
I have strung together a decent 4 or 5 days...thats a record! So I guess thats good,yes?
Love sucks,love hurts.
That makes me a wuss,plenty of people on here have problems that are WAY worse than mine.
Will pray for all you guys,I'm sure I'm gonna lurk.
All roads lead back to Tams.
See ya'll in a few days.Got some thinking to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

calvin said:


> I'm taking a break for a few days,I came close to letting my emotions out.
> I have strung together a decent 4 or 5 days...thats a record! So I guess thats good,yes?
> Love sucks,love hurts.
> That makes me a wuss,plenty of people on here have problems that are WAY worse than mine.
> Will pray for all you guys,I'm sure I'm gonna lurk.
> All roads lead back to Tams.
> See ya'll in a few days.Got some thinking to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin -- whatever you need --- take care my friend. Talk to you soon.


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## SomedayDig

May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind always be at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
and rains fall soft upon your fields.
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the palm of His hand.


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## EI

Hey, all of you, I love you guys/gals. This is a club that no one wants to be a member of, but we do know how to support, encourage, lift up and inspire one another. We also know how to "virtually" slap the $hit out of each other when it is called for.  What are friends for???...............

Take Care,
EI


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I just wanted to say how much I still enjoy logging on and reading this thread.
> 
> Hope...as everyone has said, sorry you had a bad day today. Hang tough. We got yer back.
> 
> B1 and EI...I really get a lot out of reading your stuff. I know it's tough with the struggle B1. I'm right there with ya, brother...as are a lot of other BS's who may or may not post. You're helping everyone whether you realize it or not by posting your story/struggles.
> 
> EI...same with you. It is a good thing for BS's to witness a remorseful wayward spouse talk from the heart. Yes, I've read when you first came here and the flack you took. However, I'm glad to see the lifting of the fog and the work you've done with your husband.
> 
> This people...is NOT a cheerleading thread. This is a RECONCILIATION thread. We all hold each other accountable, just as you all did when Regret TT'd me for the last time. THAT is what it's about. Don't ever be fooled.


Thank you, Dig..... for everything. You have been such a tremendous source of encouragement for B1, and me, throughout all of this.....  For that, I will be eternally grateful!


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## EI

calvin said:


> I'm taking a break for a few days,I came close to letting my emotions out.
> I have strung together a decent 4 or 5 days...thats a record! So I guess thats good,yes?
> Love sucks,love hurts.
> That makes me a wuss,plenty of people on here have problems that are WAY worse than mine.
> Will pray for all you guys,I'm sure I'm gonna lurk.
> All roads lead back to Tams.
> See ya'll in a few days.Got some thinking to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, we'll be right here waiting for you...... BTW, letting your emotions out is going to be crucial if you are ever going to fully heal. And, I pray, for the sake of you, CSS and your children that you do. 

As far as some people having it better, or worse, that is ALL relative. Your pain is your own, and it's real, and it counts. You count. We all do.

We're right here.......


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## Doc Who

Calvin - Sometimes I think it's a shame when I get feelin' better when I'm feelin' no pain

You are a good man. I can tell that in your posts. When it gets really dark, when the anger flows, just know many of us have been there too, and you too will make it through.

Lots of people are in your corner and while this may be just an internet forum, they really care about you.


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## jh52

Morning Tam Fam


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## tonyarz

I would say it means that you are trying to forgive, but never forget.


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## margrace

Empty Inside said:


> First things first, before the veteran TAM_ers_ grab their torches and start chasing you down..... , *you are the BS *(Betrayed Spouse) *not the WS* (Wayward Spouse.) I don't know if that was just a typo or if someone can direct you to the thread with all of the correct "infidelity" lingo.


typo, typo, typo! thank you, EI  tried to post something quickly before running out to work and didn't even notice that! i will continue reading now and see if there are any torches


----------



## margrace

Empty Inside said:


> I want to, honestly, be able to look in the mirror someday and say, without reservation, "I am a good person, who for a time, made choices that were wrong, foolish, selfish....I am immeasurably blessed and will be forever grateful that B1, my children, and my in-laws love me and are willing to open their hearts and give me another chance to be the person that I always thought myself to be...


just like i mentioned earlier, EI, you and the other WSs on TAM help so much by humanizing both sides of the hard, hard work in R. 

what you've said here touches me and helps me because, although i am the BS, i could say words like yours. i've made my own mistakes -- just different ones -- and i've let other people down, too. i know what it's like to disappoint myself. and ultimately i am working toward the same thing you are: to look in the mirror and feel at peace as i meet her eyes.

seeing the humanity in my WS's experience helps me hang in there and helps me tolerate the pain that i'm in. 

what keeps holding me back is that i just don't trust him (yet). i don't even trust that he's at a place where he can trust himself. finding out about the A was like being kicked and punched, as everyone has said -- but, strangely, the TT part is what really took the breath out of me. i feel sometimes like, yes, you are saying that you want to work on this and i want to believe you -- but you said that before and you were still lying. so we were actually just building a house of cards. 

at the same time, i'm not ready to give up. it doesn't feel right in my bones to walk away yet. are my bones fooling themselves? are they holding on to something familiar for too long? don't know, so tired of not knowing, but today still feels like a day to keep trying.


----------



## B1

Morning all.

Playing catch up this morning on all the previous posts, I'm not as good as EI is about logging on all the time, plus I got tired last night and crashed early.

Dig, I always look forward to reading your posts, you are insightful and honest and always helpful and thank you for that. 


Calvin, I understand completly, you need a break from it all. We will be here when you come back, take care my friend.
...But you are, I think, going to have to let those emotions come out. Suppressing isn't a good thing, take it from a pro. I held them in for roughly 28 years. Now, I don't hold back at all.
I, even as of yesterday, still shed tears, I don't hold back anymore, sometimes I may just to calm down a bit so I can talk it out, but If I am sad now and it's just EI and me I will let the emotions come out, no hodling back and it feels so much better once it's done. It's a huge realease, you should try it 

Morning JH.

Margrace, trust as my therapist said is like a wavy line, it comes and goes. I know I trust EI now for the most part but and a big but if I text her and there is no response for an hour, then I call her and get no answer, I immediately start to worry and wonder, wonder if the xOM has contacted her, or that she has possibly contacted him, I can't help it but I do go there. 

I know she wouldn't do this but I was fooled for 15 months so I am a little gun shy still. EI is very understanding about this. She remains transparent and is still an open book without a complaint. When I do finally get hold of her she is as nice and pleasant as can be, she is calming, explaining the why's and there is no hint of frustration which is SO nice.

EI, I love you!


Had a good drive in this morning. No bricks, no kicks 
Had a descent day yesterday, we probably stuck to our 15 minute talks pretty well, maybe going over a little.

I have an IC session today, cannot wait for it either.


----------



## Hope1964

Thanks all for taking the time to reply to me yesterday  I am sorry I don't reciprocate more often. Some days I just can't. And I am always on at work and have to pretend I am working  But I read everything you write and I feel everyone's pain and their happiness too!

Everyone, keep up the good work. 

Someone asked about my husband feeling guilty. I am not sure I understand it myself, but you're right that it's about him and not me. I don't begrudge him having his own stuff, usually it's fine, but this time it's different. I posted in our social group here about me finding out he'd been looking at porn - that was a huge setback for me because I thought sex addicts weren't supposed to do any of that. He was also masturbating, which isn't a big deal to me, but the porn was a pretty big slap in the face. Ever since then, he says that whenever he's alone he feels like he has to account to me for what he's doing. Like the other morning he was home after I sent to work and he said as he took his underwear off for a shower that he felt guilty because I wasn't there. We didn't get to elaborate on it in MC but I think he feels guilty because he still DOES want to look at porn. Porn is a huge no no for 99.9% of sex addicts btw, but he seems bent on convincing me he's the exception.

I need to work on my list of what I need to feel safe. Does anyone mind if I do that in this thread?


----------



## EI

Hope1964 said:


> Thanks all for taking the time to reply to me yesterday  I am sorry I don't reciprocate more often. Some days I just can't. And I am always on at work and have to pretend I am working  But I read everything you write and I feel everyone's pain and their happiness too!
> 
> Everyone, keep up the good work.
> 
> Someone asked about my husband feeling guilty. I am not sure I understand it myself, but you're right that it's about him and not me. I don't begrudge him having his own stuff, usually it's fine, but this time it's different. I posted in our social group here about me finding out he'd been looking at porn - that was a huge setback for me because I thought sex addicts weren't supposed to do any of that. He was also masturbating, which isn't a big deal to me, but the porn was a pretty big slap in the face. Ever since then, he says that whenever he's alone he feels like he has to account to me for what he's doing. Like the other morning he was home after I sent to work and he said as he took his underwear off for a shower that he felt guilty because I wasn't there. We didn't get to elaborate on it in MC but I think he feels guilty because he still DOES want to look at porn. Porn is a huge no no for 99.9% of sex addicts btw, but he seems bent on convincing me he's the exception.
> 
> I need to work on my list of what I need to feel safe. Does anyone mind if I do that in this thread?


Hope, or anyone, please use this thread in any way that you think it might benefit you. This is about "reconciliation," the good, the bad and everything in between. One thing I've learned is that, often, when we post, we think it's only for our own benefit and later we learn that we have helped countless others. You may never know who else you informed, inspired or encouraged.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Hope1964 said:


> Thanks all for taking the time to reply to me yesterday  I am sorry I don't reciprocate more often. Some days I just can't. And I am always on at work and have to pretend I am working  But I read everything you write and I feel everyone's pain and their happiness too!
> 
> Everyone, keep up the good work.
> 
> Someone asked about my husband feeling guilty. I am not sure I understand it myself, but you're right that it's about him and not me. I don't begrudge him having his own stuff, usually it's fine, but this time it's different. I posted in our social group here about me finding out he'd been looking at porn - that was a huge setback for me because I thought sex addicts weren't supposed to do any of that. He was also masturbating, which isn't a big deal to me, but the porn was a pretty big slap in the face. Ever since then, he says that whenever he's alone he feels like he has to account to me for what he's doing. Like the other morning he was home after I sent to work and he said as he took his underwear off for a shower that he felt guilty because I wasn't there. We didn't get to elaborate on it in MC but I think he feels guilty because he still DOES want to look at porn. Porn is a huge no no for 99.9% of sex addicts btw, but he seems bent on convincing me he's the exception.
> 
> I need to work on my list of what I need to feel safe. Does anyone mind if I do that in this thread?


Not much time, at work too. Please feel free to post here about your needs to feel safe. We are here to support you in any way we can.


----------



## CantSitStill

I love reading other peoples stories  I haven't been talking much lately but am always willing to help. People PM me and ask for help all the time, alot of people that I don't know. I don't always have answers but am willing to help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

It took me two hours to come up with this. I suck

What do I need to feel ‘safe’?
-	I need to work on our marriage together more often
-	I need him to work on himself and evidence of such (finish Not Just Friends, do his steps, do the exercise in NJF where he starts at the beginning and goes thru everything he did)
-	I need him to accept that I will never trust him 100% (by his definition)
-	I need to know if he cannot accept that I will never trust him 100%
-	I need to know that the fact I do not trust him will not be used as an excuse like the one he says he used to himself when he hired the hooker (She thought I had done it anyway so………….)
-	I need to hear more about HIM and not about THINGS.


I also am ordering His Needs Her Needs. To add to all the other books I am reading and want to read and started reading.................


----------



## CantSitStill

You do not trust him at all? Not even alittle? He needs to be honest, transparent and help you to trust him because you have to have trust, otherwise how in the world can you both be happy in the marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

OK for me trust is like a continuum. It isn't either 0 or 100. He seems to think I should trust him 100%, no questions asked. I trusted him like that before D day, but I never will again. My trust on D day went to 0, then started building back up. I would say it was at about 75% then on Dday#2 it went back down to about 10%. That was Nov 2012. Since then it's been building and was probably at about 90% before I found out about the porn. It's probably at about 75% right now.

I don't know if he grasps this. He keeps saying TRUST ME. Well I DON'T. Not 100%.


----------



## Hope1964

I printed this off and am going to go through it ind etail and make some notes. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...le-cheaters-how-rebuild-trust.html#post564597

I know it's more for newly betrayed spouses, but I think if I can identify things that maybe never got done, or have been undone, that will help.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hope1964 said:


> OK for me trust is like a continuum. It isn't either 0 or 100. He seems to think I should trust him 100%, no questions asked. I trusted him like that before D day, but I never will again. My trust on D day went to 0, then started building back up. I would say it was at about 75% then on Dday#2 it went back down to about 10%. That was Nov 2012. Since then it's been building and was probably at about 90% before I found out about the porn. It's probably at about 75% right now.
> 
> I don't know if he grasps this. He keeps saying TRUST ME. Well I DON'T. Not 100%.


Ohh I totally misread that. Thought you said you 100% do not trust him..was thinking backwards
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Hope1964 said:


> I printed this off and am going to go through it ind etail and make some notes.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...le-cheaters-how-rebuild-trust.html#post564597
> 
> I know it's more for newly betrayed spouses, but I think if I can identify things that maybe never got done, or have been undone, that will help.


thanks for that link. even though reading it brought me to tears. Strange, but when I read certain things like that list, it makes what happened to me "real" if that makes any sense.

EI is doing everything on that list for me. She couldn't be doing more. but it still hurts like hell. It's good to know though that she is doing all of it without ever reading it. 

hope, you need and deserve to be happy and to heal. 
I believe your husband needs to be doing everything on that list to help you heal. To me, he owes it to you and he should want to help you and your marriage. Your still hurting after 2 years of R...that's a long time to still have unresolved feelings. I sure hope you can get him to read that list and he takes it to heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hope1964 said:


> OK for me trust is like a continuum. It isn't either 0 or 100. He seems to think I should trust him 100%, no questions asked. I trusted him like that before D day, but I never will again. My trust on D day went to 0, then started building back up. I would say it was at about 75% then on Dday#2 it went back down to about 10%. That was Nov 2012. Since then it's been building and was probably at about 90% before I found out about the porn. It's probably at about 75% right now.
> 
> *I don't know if he grasps this. He keeps saying TRUST ME. Well I DON'T. Not 100%.*


That's completely understandable. He hasn't given you any reason to, yet. You should not be having to ask him to help you heal, at this point, he should be asking you "How can I help you heal?" There may come a time when you have to ask yourself if what he is giving you, now, is enough. Because if it isn't, then you need to make a decision. Are you better off with him or without him?

Make the decision that is right for you.


----------



## Badblood

Hope1964 said:


> I printed this off and am going to go through it ind etail and make some notes.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...le-cheaters-how-rebuild-trust.html#post564597
> 
> I know it's more for newly betrayed spouses, but I think if I can identify things that maybe never got done, or have been undone, that will help.


These would all seem to be common sense actions, but I suppose that there are always some people who didn't get the Memo.


----------



## Badblood

SomedayDig said:


> I just wanted to say how much I still enjoy logging on and reading this thread.
> 
> Hope...as everyone has said, sorry you had a bad day today. Hang tough. We got yer back.
> 
> B1 and EI...I really get a lot out of reading your stuff. I know it's tough with the struggle B1. I'm right there with ya, brother...as are a lot of other BS's who may or may not post. You're helping everyone whether you realize it or not by posting your story/struggles.
> 
> EI...same with you. It is a good thing for BS's to witness a remorseful wayward spouse talk from the heart. Yes, I've read when you first came here and the flack you took. However, I'm glad to see the lifting of the fog and the work you've done with your husband.
> 
> This people...is NOT a cheerleading thread. This is a RECONCILIATION thread. We all hold each other accountable, just as you all did when Regret TT'd me for the last time. THAT is what it's about. Don't ever be fooled.


I agree that the original thread was not a cheerleading thread, but unfortunately has morphed into one. Which is OK as far as that goes.


----------



## Badblood

Hope1964 said:


> OK for me trust is like a continuum. It isn't either 0 or 100. He seems to think I should trust him 100%, no questions asked. I trusted him like that before D day, but I never will again. My trust on D day went to 0, then started building back up. I would say it was at about 75% then on Dday#2 it went back down to about 10%. That was Nov 2012. Since then it's been building and was probably at about 90% before I found out about the porn. It's probably at about 75% right now.
> 
> I don't know if he grasps this. He keeps saying TRUST ME. Well I DON'T. Not 100%.


Hope, you are quite right not to trust him, and given the repeated acts of deceit, I don't really know if you will EVER be able to again. But it certainly won't happen until he proves worthy of it. And the key word is "PROVE', by actions , not further lies. A great many BS's here could use the same advice. Many are in the very beginning stages of R and are already giving trust to unproven WS's. How this will play out , long-term, is anybody's guess. Trust is an earned commodity, after an affair, and every single WS on this site SHOULD value it as precious. But if it is given too freely, it will not be valued as highly. We learned as children that those things acquired by hard work were more valuable than the free gifts.


----------



## EI

Good morning everyone,

It's going to be a lovely rainy day in the Bluegrass State, today, .... but the weather is cooling off and I am truly looking forward to the Fall weather this year.

I'm going to take care of some business early this morning and then I am taking several hours off, sort of, and spend some time with my precious little grandson. My daughter needs to clean her house and she just "can't get a thing done" with her "little man" running around. He just turned one. Being the loving mommy that I am, I do not say things like, "I used to keep a spotless house when all of you were little," because then I would remind myself too much of my own mother...... LOL 

Have a great day *TAM*_ers_ and I will ttyl!!!

Take care,
EI


----------



## B1

Hope1964 said:


> I printed this off and am going to go through it ind etail and make some notes.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...le-cheaters-how-rebuild-trust.html#post564597
> 
> I know it's more for newly betrayed spouses, but I think if I can identify things that maybe never got done, or have been undone, that will help.


As far as trust goes for EI and me...

Since EI is doing the heavy lifting so to speak and I am involved in our marriage and emotionally present now, my trust for EI is high. She goes over and above what's necessary when it comes to her where abouts and phones calls. She keeps me posted to the point I sometimes want to say, honey, it's ok, I believe your at the grocery or I believe your with our daughter. She sometimes worries far more about this than I do.

I had to choose, at some point, to trust enough to get through a day without worry. I chose this a while back. If she is going to cheat again, then she will, period, and I will catch her. I am no longer a silent partner in this marriage, I am present, I am here in it with her. Before I simply wasn't.

She reads so much here on TAM about this subject and tries to live it to the letter. However, everyone is different, Not every A is the same. Not every response in the same. Not every WS is the same and not every BS is the same.

I don't believe she will ever have an A again. now the "why" I believe that.


I know her limits, I know why she broke and that reason, not excuse, is no longer a problem in our marriage. We addressed them together and in counseling.

She has promised that if pushed to her limits again a D will be her choice. She will never stoop to that level again.

Her phone..a biggie for me, is left unattended ALL the time. If it rings sometimes she will ask me to get it. Before it was practically glued to her hand and went every where she went.

She, as mentioned earlier, keeps me posted in her comings and goings.

My therapist is 110% convinced she would never do this again. Yes, he knew everything about the A, from begining to end.

She loves me and she wants this marriage to work now. Before, she no longer was in love with me and was finished with the marriage. This was long before the A ever started. Note, this wasn't an excuse, but it was a reason. BIG difference. 

She never gets defensive with detail related questions. She may get tired and need a break if I am coming at her 24\7 but she is has always answered my questions about the A openly and honestly.

Since Dday #2 no TT, no more surprises, no more shocking revelations. No more reasons not to trust.

She 110% ownes her actions, her choice and has shown true remorse and sorrow. Her tears, her hugs, her compassion and understanding speaks volumns to me. *This is something NO ONE on TAM sees.* *Her actions are what mostly builds my trust *NOT just words and no one can see that but me!

So, in saying all this, as you can see, trust is not the BIG issue for me as of now. however, I'm still not at 100% trust. If I try to call her and get n\a for an hour or so I will worry and panic some. This has happened recently, so I am not there just yet, but I am getting there. I would say my trust level is at 90%. 

I still have not forgotten what she did do, the lies and deception are still present in my mind and proably will be for a while. However, like I said, I am a husband now, a participant in this marriage, something I just wasn't before. This makes all the difference.


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## Hope1964

EI, I hope you have a great day with your grandson!! Sounds like fun 

He can tell something is wrong but instead of asking if there's anything he can do to help, he says to me last night "I am not going to chase you". Which comes from MC, but he's taken it completely out of context. Which he frequently does.

Sigh. I do feel a bit better today, not because of anything he did, but because I have a plan and am starting to implement it, for myself.


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## Hope1964

I've been working on my list. Here's todays version:

_VERY IMPORTANT: I need to know that he is willing to do the things I need because he knows it is helping me. The attitude of ‘paying the price’ MUST stop or we are doomed.

I need to work on our marriage together more often

I need evidence he’s working on himself (finish Not Just Friends, do his steps)

We need to do the exercise in NJF where he starts at the beginning and goes thru everything he did. Or else the step where he does this. I know he thinks he’s already told me everything, and I do have the timeline, but the whole porn episode has thrown me backwards and I need this again. I have started second guessing what I did on D day and wishing I hadn’t shown my hand, that I had gone underground and gathered evidence before confronting. At least that way I would KNOW what was in his email inboxes, what was on his phone, what he did on his computer, what the messages on his profiles said exactly. The fact I don’t know these things has been bothering me a lot since I found out about the porn.

I need him to accept that I will never trust him 100% (by his definition)

I need to know if he cannot accept that I will never trust him 100%

I need to know that the fact I do not trust him will not be used as an excuse like the one he says he used to himself when he hired the hooker (She thought I had done it anyway so………….)

I need to hear more about HIM and not about THINGS.

I need to hear him say he’s sorry. Not all the time, but when he knows I need it. Example: coming home from the football game we went thru downtown past the Westin. He grabbed me roughly and kissed me roughly – I would have MUCH rather just had a quiet ‘I am sorry’. He never said a word about it. I would have loved for him, when we got back to the jeep, to tell me again that he regrets what he did and loves me and will never do it again. He knew I was triggered yet he tried to ignore it.

I think I need the porn to just go away for a while. I am not really into it, and the only reason I do it is to indulge him once in a while. At the same time, I would like to change things up in the bedroom more. We’ve been doing this, and I like it.

I need to talk about our sex life without him making a joke
_


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## CantSitStill

Has he ever shown real remorse? I mean real remorse, like not just doing what he thinks he should but feeling horrible about his actions. Has he cried? Do you feel he is being genuine about reconcilling? From what you have been saying I'm thinking the answer is no. He really needs to take a good look at himself and how much he forever hurt you. He needs to see the damage he really caused here. He needs to see how huge his choices have affected you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

YAY!!!!!


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> YAY!!!!!


You just couldn't control yourself, could ya?


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## EI

Hope1964 said:


> EI, I hope you have a great day with your grandson!! Sounds like fun
> 
> He can tell something is wrong but instead of asking if there's anything he can do to help, he says to me last night "I am not going to chase you". Which comes from MC, but he's taken it completely out of context. Which he frequently does.
> 
> *Sigh. I do feel a bit better today, not because of anything he did, but because I have a plan and am starting to implement it, for myself.*


That's what going to get you through this, Hope! And, a little help from your friends!


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## calvin

Morning everyone,that was a nice little break from Tams,I needed it.
Been feeling more positive about me and CSS,she's doing everything she should without any proding from me,she's a damn good girl,pretty too.
Love thoses old Bugs Bunny toons Dig,still have to watch them every now and then.
Hope everyone has a good day!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

*Bad bad evening yesterday*. It had dawned on me that they were romantically involved too...yes, I know, kind of stupid of me to think that now, of course they were. But I have been so hung up on the physical aspect of their relationship, all the sex etc. that I never thought about the romance between them. IT was almost like Dday all over again!

EI and I were hugging, cuddeling and kissing passionately on the couch last night, I asked the stupid question if they ever did that. Thinking that they really hadn't. I mean all he wanted was sex right? -- wrong, I guess.
She held her head down and I knew what the answer was...I lost it, I must have cried for hours, never thought I would stop crying. I thought for a while I would have to be just taken away and put in a looney bin. 

I couldn't stop crying, God that hurt! It hurt beyond my understanding, it hurt worse than any pain I have ever felt before. EI was at a complete loss as to what to do, almost panicking. I finally took some valiumn and calmed down. I didn't even want to make this post but It's so important that others see this and know it's part of the R, it happens and it, I guess, can be considered normal.

However, I sure didn't feel normal last night. I felt like I was dying. A show was on t.v. when all this was going on, and a lady was upset and angry because she lost her leg...I immediately, without thinking at all, thought..lady that's nothing, that's nothing compared to what i am going through...how crazy is that, but it's what I felt at the time. That's just how intense this pain was to me, and that's the key word there...TO ME. I feel a little better this morning, still dazed a little. EI is scared, very scared that I can't do this, that I will give up.

I am NOT giving up though, I love that woman with every ounce of my being. That's why it hurts so much. I am NOT a quiter, I may be very wounded and I am suffering, but I am not letting her go again, I did that once, not again.

Has anyone else lost it at 3-4 months down the road?
Do you still come to realizations about the A that never dawned on you before? I don't mean something knew you found out, something that was being hidden, not TT. Just a realization. Like there was hugging and kissing. I know, how could I NOT assume that, I guess when you are caught up on one thing you don't think about other things. Things EI would assume I knew because, well, they had sex, you assume ther was kissing too. But I didn't think about just hugging and kissing passionately on the couch without sex.

I am sure she held his face and he held hers and they kissed...they rubbed through each others hair and kissed...they looked into each others eyes and kissed..and on and on...I wanted to just scream as loud as I could on the way to work this morning...not sure why I didn't, I should have.

My eyes hurt, my head hurts, I'm still in pain but getting better. We will have our date tonight and will have NO kids at home again which is so incredibly unusual for us.

Thanks everyone for taking time out to read this and listening to me
ramble on and on...I just needed to vent and, to share, and yes, to get a little support  I don't have anyone else to really talke too about this except EI and you all, well, and my counselor but he's not available 24\7.


Hope you all have a great Friday..Hope I have one too


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## calvin

I know what you mean B1,I though I'd rather lose a limb than to have to go through all that crap.
I asked CSS if she would look up the loser's pic on face book and look at him lovingly and miss him.
She said yes,she would do it often while telling me she didnt want to have anything to do with me.
Sh!t hurts bad man,sorry you had to go through that.
I think getting your leg cut off with no pain meds would have been much easier and more humane in my opinion.
Just sucks bad....ugh,sorry bro
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

B1, you and I have had our differences, but I feel for you . Sometimes the physical part is so much easier to deal with than the romantic issue. This is why sometimes EA's are harder to recover from than PA's. The length of EI's affair should tell you that it was much more than just sex. This is why I advocated a cautious and measure approach to R. You are in this for the long-haul, so you need to understand ALL of the aspects of the affair, and deal with all of them , in their turn. EI has been very good about being transparent abotu the sexual issues, so I'm sure she will be the same about the romantic ones as well.
Take a break, cool down, and find out what EI is willing to do to help you with this new revelation. But above all remember that R isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.


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## Hope1964

Nice to see you back calvin  Glad you had a good break.

B1, that post made me want to cry. I am so sorry you had a bad night last night. 

badbane, your analogy of the marathon really hit home with me. Sadly I don't think my husband thinks that way. css is right - I am starting to wonder if he's just been going through the motions of R and hasn't been doing it for me at all, but because he thinks he has to be the martyr. Last night we were supposed to talk about it and it degenerated into him telling me how angry this all is making him feel because we're two years out and I am still hurting this much. I gave him the post to read that I posted the link to earlier and it just made him mad.

This morning I woke up and for the first time since March 2010 I felt like I do not want to do this any more.


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## Badblood

Hope1964 said:


> Nice to see you back calvin  Glad you had a good break.
> 
> B1, that post made me want to cry. I am so sorry you had a bad night last night.
> 
> badbane, your analogy of the marathon really hit home with me. Sadly I don't think my husband thinks that way. css is right - I am starting to wonder if he's just been going through the motions of R and hasn't been doing it for me at all, but because he thinks he has to be the martyr. Last night we were supposed to talk about it and it degenerated into him telling me how angry this all is making him feel because we're two years out and I am still hurting this much. I gave him the post to read that I posted the link to earlier and it just made him mad.
> 
> This morning I woke up and for the first time since March 2010 I felt like I do not want to do this any more.


Badbane? Hope please don't attribute my inane ramblings to such a good poster as Badbane.


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## Hope1964

Badblood said:


> Badbane? Hope please don't attribute my inane ramblings to such a good poster as Badbane.


Oops, my brain is mush this morning


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## Badblood

Hope1964 said:


> Oops, my brain is mush this morning


That's usually my condition, most mornings.:scratchhead:


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## jh52

I would agree with Badblood that "But above all remember that R isn't a sprint, it's a marathon."

I would just like to add that so is life.


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## Affaircare

Morning = Mush...that's just how it is. 

B1, I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad night last night, but sadly what you're going through is pretty "normal." You had previously been working on getting your mind to wrap around "she had sex with someone else" but while you were working on that, you were focused and it didn't dawn on you that it meant that she found someone else interesting, liked someone else, felt feelings for someone else, kissed someone else. Yes those things are obvious, but that wasn't what you were dealing with. 

So I hope it is some comfort to learn that what you're going through is somewhat "normal" -- I mean it's not what happens to everyone but it's also not abnormal at all. 

Second, I want to encourage you about something. I can not speak for EI but I can speak generically as a disloyal person. I wanted my husband. I wanted him to see me come in a room and brighten up. I wanted him to be thankful to have me. I wanted him to long for me. I mean I ACHED for it. When that wasn't happening, I felt like I got more and more tired--kind of like a person who is holding their arms above their head and the longer it goes, the more heavy those arms feel! At a certain point, I just was too tired and couldn't do it any more, but even then, OH MY GOD how I wished my hubby would come alive and swoop in and save the day! LOL And when I was discouraged and thought, "Well I'll go do my own thing that I enjoy while he's doing what he enjoys" I surely was not looking for someone. Even then I wanted my husband!! When someone came along and thought I was "all that" and acted like I was smart, funny and interesting, in a way it felt like being hit by a truck because I was so unprepared. It was a little like someone in the dessert dying of thirst too--I drank first and then looked to see what I was drinking.... 

I'm not making excuses, but I'm encouraging you to ask EI because I will bet you that for a long, Long, LONG time her desire was for you. That is to say, I betcha that what she really wanted was for the man she loved--you--to be the one who noticed her. And now here she is, after everything, and she STILL does want you to be "the one"...you ARE "the one" whom she adores in her heart. I'm sure that doesn't take away the pain, but considering what happened, my hope is that it encourages you to know that she had a choice to walk away and forge her own, new life if that's what she wanted...AND SHE DIDN'T. She wanted you then...she wants you NOW...and she has chosen you to be the one she shares her future with. That means she's 100% aware that she could have been okay without you, and she is staying because she wants to and chooses to. 

For the rest of my life, I know that every day I'm with my Dear Hubby may be the last. A) He may die--hey accidents happen and he has COPD, and B) He may decide he could do better without me or doesn't want me and he may leave tonight So for me, I learned from my affair to never, ever "cruise"--every single day is a day that he CHOOSES to stay and forgive me. And every single day I could do just fine without him but I WANT to be with him. So every day is a day that's another day to act loving. 

Hope that helps. She chooses you today.


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## CantSitStill

I like what you said affaircare, I choose to be with and love Calvin. I love him and love being with him. We had a good time last night just eating and talking without the kids around. Every day is a blessing. I still fear he will change his mind about me but I feel I never ever want to lose him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Thank you all for your kind words and support. 

Yes BB, you are right, it's a marathon, I remembered that from long ago. I appreciate your kind words and support.

Calvin appreciate the post and PM, it meant a lot. Sorry if I triggered you though  we have to hang in there, we can do this. Our wives choose us, remember!

Affaircare, thanks for letting me know it's normal, I was actually beginning to think I was abnormal about all this. I was a blubbering mess last night, I didn't think it was normal at all. I had to be drugged to calm down, it was bad, very bad. I just never ever thought about the emotional part, the romance, the fact she wanted him romantically too, as a matter of fact the romance and affection was what she wanted more than anything else, even more than the sex. I have been hyper focusing on the sex, I just never thought about the little stuff like kissing, hand holding, caressing etc. 

Yes at first her desire was for me you are correct in saying that. For several years she wanted me to be that man, the one who reached out to her, held her and caressed her, but I just wasn't there for her. Not an excuse for her choice, but it is a reason. One we have addressed and I am NOT the same man as I was then. She has ALL of me now and I have ALL of her.

Your entire post was so helpful thank you!!


Me and EI just had a great talk for over an hour. Now we are getting ready to head out to eat. She has felt like crap all day, she has been depressed and down because of how I felt. I am better now, talking with her helped, reading everyone's posts here helped, and I am just doing better now. I still have to cope with this new found realization. I found a great article on betrayal and 7 steps to survive it, hope it's ok to post it here.  Here in the link.

I have read a lot of it but not all of it, it appears to be very good and helpful.

Thanks again everyone for your support and words of encouragement. This is HARD work, sure there are good times, there are even great times, there are bad times and sad times too. There are things that happen that never end up here too. All in all though, I have to say R is working for us. Our communication is so good now, so open and so honest. We hold nothing back, good and bad, we let it out. When one talks the other listens without interruptions, we acknowledge our wrongs and openly voice our troubles. This is proving to be a major asset in our R.

Ok, gotta run... EI just got in the tub, and you know what that means.... yep, no clothes . Just hope she didn't lock the door!


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## calvin

Glad you feeling better man.
Just like my couselor said "do you want to forgive her?".....yes,yes,yes I do.
Yep its hard.I waiver,get tired and alway ask "why me?"
I'm committed,it s like going through a briar patch a mile long.I'll make it but it hurts,the cuts will heal and be scars but we both will make it.
Its fvcking hard work,you guys will make it also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I found a good site I've been reading alot of today and I have realised altho I am grateful for this second chance...the site made me appreciate him even more. This reconcilliation and working on forgiveness is pure hell for the BS. I read about how it affects them in everyday life and so deeply. I hate that I wounded him and I don't deserve this forgiveness, it is not easy for the BS at all. I knew all of this but reading more has opened my eyes and reminded me to show more appreciation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seasalt

Betrayed1,

I think that your trigger was something that you should have considered months ago because if my memory serves Empty Inside had talked about interactions with his family members. I can't see how you could have missed that connection. She also said she was going to leave you whether or not she had a chance at a life with her former boyfriend. That to me, the whether or not she had a chance part, indicated her ability to see him as a romantic partner.

I'm not going to tell you how you should feel about this latest downer. I can only say that you might want to look at how you felt about what you didn't have then and how you feel about what you have now and make a qualitative assessment. If it comes out positively use it to level the bad moments for the rest of your life.

I don't post very often and wish I had more for you.

Seasalt


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## Acabado

Wanted to thank betrayed1 for that link. Great site to explore.


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## B1

seasalt said:


> Betrayed1,
> 
> I think that your trigger was something that you should have considered months ago because if my memory serves Empty Inside had talked about interactions with his family members. I can't see how you could have missed that connection. She also said she was going to leave you whether or not she had a chance at a life with her former boyfriend. That to me, the whether or not she had a chance part, indicated her ability to see him as a romantic partner.
> 
> I'm not going to tell you how you should feel about this latest downer. I can only say that you might want to look at how you felt about what you didn't have then and how you feel about what you have now and make a qualitative assessment. If it comes out positively use it to level the bad moments for the rest of your life.
> 
> I don't post very often and wish I had more for you.
> 
> Seasalt


Great memory seasalt....
You are right I should have known this. EI did NOT make it a secret, she has told me more than once the real threat was the emotional connection. However, it just didn't hit home until that night when we were kissing\ cuddling on the couch...I guess I had a visual representation of it. Men are very visual, at least I am, telling me is one thing, seeing it in action is a whole other thing.

Me and EI were really connecting on that couch, kissing softly and passionately, then the light bulb moment, OMG, did they do this too? Did they connect like this too? and as you know, I asked that question. EI's head hung down, she said I wont lie to you B1, Yes we did this too  

I guess I always knew it I just NEVER allowed my emotions to get hold of it, they sure did that night. I was a mess and EI was a mess all the way through yesterday until we talked again once home from work. She did not get anything down around the house yesterday, she was depressed to say the least.
When I hurt it has a huge effect on her, she is a very empathetic person.

We had a GREAT date last night, we talked more and worked through this very bad time. I am hoping for a nice weekend.

Thank you for your insight and yes you are right I should have known and addressed this long ago.


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## CantSitStill

I am the same as Empty, I feel paralized and land up not able to function when he triggers. Enjoy your weekend. I cherish any time I can get with Calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

B1, your situation , while painful, is another very important lesson in the process of reconciliation, especially for waywards. EI and the other waywards will have to learn to be more pro-active. This whole romancing the AP issue is one that EI could have seen coming, and prepared for. Then it would not have been such a massive trigger. I'm not criticizing her , mind you, but pointing out some of the less talked about aspects of R, and how a better informed WS can learn to disable triggers before they become a problem. The more knowledgable a WS can be and the more the BS and WS talk over ALL of the affair issues, the fewer the triggers and the smoother the path.


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## Badblood

An example of this is whether or not the WS told the AP, ILY. If he/she did, then they need to tell the BS about it , pronto, and work throught it together.


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## Acabado

Maybe because DDay put crystal clear he main issue we had was the deep emotional attachment my wife had with OM I barly had any issues with the PA portion of her affair (that and the fact my intel provided the security it was really pathetic), so the sex, the mind movies did't hit me until later. I was too busy dismantlying my wife's broken heart and feelings of hopeleness about a stupid inthinkable romantic fantasy wich didn't become realitity.


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## CantSitStill

Yes people are always saying things like "oh it was only a emotional affair" It's not like you had sex. Well the emotional part is very hard because there were the I love yous. The fantasy bullcrap. The immature teenage giddiness that hurts him so deeply. When I try to imagine my husband telling another woman he loves them it blows my mind. He is really struggling with this. I have a feeling he thinks that I still have feelings for this creep. Is that what you guys think? That your spouse still has feelings for the AP? Ugg honestly I do NOT have any feelings for him. I think of him as dead, non existant. But when the creep keeps calling him I just don't get why he won't just go away, I want him gone jackass he is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> Thank you for saying that, MM. I am going to try, very hard, to be an example of that. I used to be proud of myself, I used to like the person that I saw in the mirror. I want to, honestly, be able to look in the mirror someday and say, without reservation, "I am a good person, who for a time, made choices that were wrong, foolish, selfish, wreckless, horrible, irreversibly life-changing and devastating to the people that love me and that I love the most in this world. I am not that person and I will never, again, allow myself to behave in such a manner."
> 
> I am immeasurably blessed and will be forever grateful that B1, my children, and my in-laws love me and are willing to open their hearts and give me another chance to be the person that I always thought myself to be before I became someone that I no longer recognized.
> 
> I love you, B1! <3


I love what you said about looking in the mirror. I am seeing that girl come back, that girl that had self esteem, that girl that had confidance and that positive attitude. She was gone for a very very long time..When I think about it I think it was when I was in my 20s and I am now 41, its sad but it's never too late to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Badblood said:


> B1, your situation , while painful, is another very important lesson in the process of reconciliation, especially for waywards. EI and the other waywards will have to learn to be more pro-active. This whole romancing the AP issue is one that EI could have seen coming, and prepared for. Then it would not have been such a massive trigger. I'm not criticizing her , mind you, but pointing out some of the less talked about aspects of R, and how a better informed WS can learn to disable triggers before they become a problem. The more knowledgable a WS can be and the more the BS and WS talk over ALL of the affair issues, the fewer the triggers and the smoother the path.



I tell myself that I am not going to respond to you because I usually regret it when I do. But, here goes. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to anticipate every potential, possible trigger and when it might occur. EI did see "it" coming from day one, that the emotional aspect of my relationship with the xOM was going to be the biggest challenge in my reconciliation with B1.... as far as I was concerned. I knew that B1 would, eventually, come around and begin to understand that, while the sexual aspect of that relationship haunts him and causes those horrific mind-movies, the emotional aspect of the relationship is what kept me going back to the xOM. I have been honest about that from the start with B1. I was told from the beginning on TAM to answer his questions, to answer them fully and honestly, but not to force information on him that he did not want to hear. I have encouraged him many times to let me tell him "more" about the emotional aspects and he always says that he doesn't want to hear about it. So, I've allowed to him lead the way. I have been completely honest and forthcoming with information since B1 and I made the choice, together, to work on reconciliation and I sent the NC letter in the 3rd week of June.

I am not really sure how to prepare for triggers or to disable them before they become triggers. The only thing that I know to do is to be honest when asked about something and to be loving, compassionate, sympathetic, supportive and to show remorse and regret when they occur..... which is something that I think I do, to the best of my ability, every single day, anyway.


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## B1

EI has always been upfront about the emotional part of the affair. I just didn't see it as a bigger deal then the physical stuff, until now.
She did tell him ILY, many times, she thought she was in love with him and told me upfront on Dday that she told him so. 

This is not something EI could have predicted or planned for. She has told me she was emotionally connected to him. I just was closed minded about it I guess. It really didn't click until the couch episode, it just didn't. Guess I am dense but I get it now, sadly enough.

Had a good day today so far, no real issues, did a senior photo shoot for a friend and working on those pix now. 

EI is at bunko tonight, a first since Dday. She has giving me directions to the ladies house, the ladies phone number, and has already texted me letting me know she is there. She even said right before leaving if it's a problem let me know, I'll stay home, and she was dead serious.

I really don't have a problem with it. I am choosing to trust her with this and she needs and deserves a good time with friends, no guys of course. 

Also, I am now reading the married men sex life primer 2011, so far it's pretty good, some really crazy stuff in that book though. Also reading No more Mr. nice guy. EI bought both the books for me.


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## CantSitStill

She's probably so worried about you being worried that she's not relaxing and enjoying herself. I get it. She seems alot like me. Always wanting to make sure you know what she is doing. I hope she is having a nice time. She deserves a night away from the kids. We are thinking of getting some books too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Hey B1,glad you feeling more calm.Youre putting some trust in her and it sounds like she is doing it the right way with you in mind.She's protecting your feelings,she protecting you.
We cant keep them in the house forever,we have to let them out and Bonko is a good thing.
It will all come to you slowly,real slow,at least for me.
CSS can go out with one of her sisters,the other no way and I'm sure you know the friends she has at Bonko.
The last day and a half were pretty damn bad for both of us but now.....its better. Took awhile 
You both keep pushing,its hard but you know that.
jh is right,one hour,one day,then that will turn into months and you guys will be at a better place.
Prayer for both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> I tell myself that I am not going to respond to you because I usually regret it when I do. But, here goes. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to anticipate every potential, possible trigger and when it might occur. EI did see "it" coming from day one, that the emotional aspect of my relationship with the xOM was going to be the biggest challenge in my reconciliation with B1.... as far as I was concerned. I knew that B1 would, eventually, come around and begin to understand that, while the sexual aspect of that relationship haunts him and causes those horrific mind-movies, the emotional aspect of the relationship is what kept me going back to the xOM. I have been honest about that from the start with B1. I was told from the beginning on TAM to answer his questions, to answer them fully and honestly, but not to force information on him that he did not want to hear. I have encouraged him many times to let me tell him "more" about the emotional aspects and he always says that he doesn't want to hear about it. So, I've allowed to him lead the way. I have been completely honest and forthcoming with information since B1 and I made the choice, together, to work on reconciliation and I sent the NC letter in the 3rd week of June.
> 
> I am not really sure how to prepare for triggers or to disable them before they become triggers. The only thing that I know to do is to be honest when asked about something and to be loving, compassionate, sympathetic, supportive and to show remorse and regret when they occur..... which is something that I think I do, to the best of my ability, every single day, anyway.


Actually, EI, there was no need for you to reply at all. I said, very clearly, that I was not criticizing you, but simply pointing out another seldom talked about aspect of R. When an affair becomes physical , a lot of BS's think that is the worst , but sometimes the romantic issues are far harder to deal with, as in CSS situation. This is yet another reason why the WS should always tell every scrap of information to the BS. The more he/she knows about the feelings as well as the actions of the affair, the less future re-hash there is and the less possibility of a massive trigger. The ILY's are a different matter altogether. One of the main reasons I tried initially to R with my wife was that she said, (and backed it up in the Poly) that she never said ILY to her AP. I will be honest, I don't believe that if she had told the OM ILY, that I would even have considered R for a moment. To give another man her body is one thing, to give him her heart would have been a killer. But that's me, I don't say that sort of thing lightly and when I do say it, I mean it.


----------



## Badblood

Also, I do not know what"Bunko" is. Yes, I'm a dumba**.


----------



## CantSitStill

It kills Calvin's heart that I said those words. He asked me "did you mean it?" I had to be honest: yes I meant it but now I see that wasn't real love I had for the OM. I know it wasn't. It's like I was in another world and out of my mind..the idea of someone else loving me was so selfish. I believed Calvin didn't love me. ugg how wrong I was. How immature I was. Now I need to learn from that and every day do all I can to help our love grow. I mean I love Calvin so much but of course he is struggling to believe that and trust that and trust me that I won't ever get like that again. Working daily on myself and on us and have a long way to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey Em, how was Bunco? Btw Badblood, bunco is a fun dice game people play for money or not but when I played once I won all the money, it was fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> It kills Calvin's heart that I said those words. He asked me "did you mean it?" I had to be honest: yes I meant it but now I see that wasn't real love I had for the OM. I know it wasn't. It's like I was in another world and out of my mind..the idea of someone else loving me was so selfish. I believed Calvin didn't love me. ugg how wrong I was. How immature I was. Now I need to learn from that and every day do all I can to help our love grow. I mean I love Calvin so much but of course he is struggling to believe that and trust that and trust me that I won't ever get like that again. Working daily on myself and on us and have a long way to go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


fvck me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

calvin said:


> fvck me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know she ment it too.
Just sucks so much.Like a kick to the head then the heart when I hear that. Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

yes Calvin it sucks..hurts and everything in between. sorry just hang in there I feel your pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I knew this is something we discussed, otherwise would not have posted it. I'm really sorry honey. I can delete it but you already pasted it in pink. Please remember, we are going to make it. You are strong and we both have the determination to have a better future together. I love you and only you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

You know what.. sometimes I really hate this site..no offense to the TAM team, it's a great place to learn ans support eachother but it also triggers the crap outa us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Welp that didn't go too good, he went to take a ride..I didn't think that would trigger him..Maybe I talk too much, sigh..I'm sure things will be ok later. Just upset with myself and so is he
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> I love what you said about looking in the mirror. I am seeing that girl come back, that girl that had self esteem, that girl that had confidance and that positive attitude. She was gone for a very very long time..When I think about it I think it was when I was in my 20s and I am now 41, its sad but it's never too late to change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You had what sounds like a nervous breakdown, of sorts. But, with Calvin's help, you are getting better.:smthumbup:

41? Bloody hell. You kids, eh?!


----------



## CantSitStill

MattMatt said:


> You had what sounds like a nervous breakdown, of sorts. But, with Calvin's help, you are getting better.:smthumbup:
> 
> 41? Bloody hell. You kids, eh?!


Yes you are right Mattmatt I did
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Its good,triggers come and go.Depends on how rough they are.
ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Its good,triggers come and go.Depends on how rough they are.
> ugh
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yesterday was the 2yrs anniversary of D-Day. Actually made it through with no triggers. Heading out to the golf course helped.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> Yesterday was the 2yrs anniversary of D-Day. Actually made it through with no triggers. Heading out to the golf course helped.


Well, that's very encouraging for the rest of us. I'm so glad that you guys are doing well! For your sake and for those of us who are hoping to see better days ahead.


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Hey Em, how was Bunco? Btw Badblood, bunco is a fun dice game people play for money or not but when I played once I won all the money, it was fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was nice and I am glad that I went, but I admit that it did feel a little odd being out, without B1. I really missed him and it made me appreciate, even more than I already do, just how much I have enjoyed reconnecting with him these last few months.

I'd rather be with him than anyone else in the world. But, Sundays are best. I have B1 and all of our children at home. In fact, I am getting the evil stares from our daughter right now because she says that it is time for me to get offline and "join the real world." I think I am gonna do just that.

ttyl *TAM*_ers_

Take care,
EI


----------



## CantSitStill

As I was sitting here watching football with Calvin holding hands, I realized..it feels good and why in. the heck didn't we ever sit close like that? It was the way I was raised, but man I love being close to him  Same here Empty, Sunday is family day and I make a nice meal and we are all usuallyu here. My daughter is at work but Sundays are my favorite  Just made chicken tacos  Glad you enjoyed bunko night or some call it Drunko lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> As I was sitting here watching football with Calvin holding hands, I realized..it feels good and why in. the heck didn't we ever sit close like that? It was the way I was raised, but man I love being close to him  Same here Empty, Sunday is family day and I make a nice meal and we are all usuallyu here. My daughter is at work but Sundays are my favorite  Just made chicken tacos  Glad you enjoyed bunko night or some call it Drunko lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Damn. The way we are raised can really mess with your head.


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## CantSitStill

Parents never hugged us kids, no I love yous, no affection so it always felt awkward to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Parents never hugged us kids, no I love yous, no affection so it always felt awkward to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sigh..yeah,thats the way it was with her family...well a lot worse than that.
I've hugged and kissed my mom since I was little.
I started hugging Dad about 20 years ago when he figured out the damage he did.
Still hug two of my sisters when I see them.
Had to hug the one a lot a few days ago when I had to go get her,first time I ever had to do that with her.
Hugged and carried her,which isnt easy..she's around 330 lbs.Back still hurts.  she does have two Master degrees tho..smart and pretty good girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Pray you both had a good day guys.
That is rough hearing that from CSS but she is being true.I dont want lies to save my feelings.
I want it all so I can chew it,swallow it,digest it and get the crap out of me.
I hate it but it has to be done.
The payoff on the other hand is what I'm gambling for.
Thats what R is in a way to me,a gamble.
Its one that I think is going to pay off big time, I think.
The odds are in our favor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I love you Calvin..oh sorry for the hijack lol goodnight Em, B1 and all of our TAM fam.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I love you Calvin..oh sorry for the hijack lol goodnight Em, B1 and all of our TAM fam.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You guys can hijack our thread anytime!  Goodnight! :sleeping:


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Parents never hugged us kids, no I love yous, no affection so it always felt awkward to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so sorry that you had to grow up that way, CSS..... :'(


----------



## Badblood

CantSitStill said:


> Hey Em, how was Bunco? Btw Badblood, bunco is a fun dice game people play for money or not but when I played once I won all the money, it was fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, CSS, I was imagining it was something like Bingo. My Gram used to play bingo religiously every Thursday nite.


----------



## Badblood

In my Family, the men didn't hug much or cry very often. Only under extraordinary circumstances.
See, this is what I like about Calvin and CSS, they face their issues as a united front, and with a lot of good common sense.


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## calvin

Badblood said:


> In my Family, the men didn't hug much or cry very often. Only under extraordinary circumstances.
> See, this is what I like about Calvin and CSS, they face their issues as a united front, and with a lot of good common sense.


Its not easy.I came close a few times to getting out of it all but I love CSS and I cant see how she can feel any more remorse and regret for what she did.
This crap is so damn hard,it can drive you nuts if youre not careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood

How well I know, Cal. Between D-day and my final decision to divorce, I was a basket case of nerves. The affair occupied most of my thoughts for weeks until the affair became my reality. Funny, though, the moment I made my final decision to divorce, that all went away, and I was at peace with myself and her. I stopped hating her and began to pity her. I even forgave her, but it was too little, too late, to save the M.


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## Badblood

Which brings up something I alluded to earlier in the thread. Reconciliation doesn't necessarily mean that the marriage survives. It can mean that the BS and WS fully understand all of the issues surrounding the affair, and have dealt with them to the point where both parties can face the future as more mature, more independent, and more grounded people. I have reconciled myself to what happened and my wife (ex) is working on it. The only thing that we don't have is the love, the affair killed that part of it.


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## Badblood

The survival of the marriage is NOT more important than the well-being of the two persons involved in it.
I sometimes think that possibly a trial separation would be helpful to achieve this. B1, don't bite my head off, but have you considered this option? I really believe that EI is doing all she can to help you heal, but you are having a really tough time dealing with some of the issues of the affair, and perhaps "stepping back", from the intensity of constant contact with her will help you regain some perspective. Nothing serious , but something like a mini-vacation. Go off by yourself somewhere you like, and detox and shed some stress. Actually this might be good for both of you.


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Its not easy.I came close a few times to getting out of it all but I love CSS and I cant see how she can feel any more remorse and regret for what she did.
> This crap is so damn hard,it can drive you nuts if youre not careful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes...it can drive you nuts if you don't control it. I have actually thought a few times I was loosing my mind. Like, I just can't do this anymore. But then, the pain subsides and my love for EI shines through. It's NOT easy, it is hard, hard work.

Last night was a VERY tough night for EI....she was feeling so much remorse and guilt, she cried a lot and was really coming down hard on herself. We talked literally for 3 hours about the A and life in generall. about times way before the A, things leading up to the A and then the A and now the time after it. We covered it all. 

We had SO many things against us. It's amazing we are still standing.
Being a caregivers alone puts in you in a divorce rate of about 80% (read that stat somewhere long ago).
..and we have been caregivers to her dad, her mom and of course our special needs son. Now add a little depression, financial disasters, a few kids messing up, an emotionally detached husband, and now an A, you should have a divorced couple on your hands.

But you don't. You have two people who really do love each other, it's not dependancy, it's not just doing the right thing, it's really love, it's really that we need each other and want each other and want this marriage to work for ourselves. We are fighting very hard to get out of this mess we both made. 

I finished the married men sex life primer this weekend, now on to No more Mr. nice guy.....Mmmmm more Alpha food


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## calvin

Badblood said:


> The survival of the marriage is NOT more important than the well-being of the two persons involved in it.


I agree with that.The marriage is important but staying together for the wrong reasons will only make the marriage a nightmare and does no one in the family any good.
Unless both of us are willing to work on ourselves and the flaws in eachother that gots us here,whats the point?
The love,respect and appreciation for eachother is a must for me.
I have to know that the remorse and regret are real from her and the damage that was done is deep and widespread.If it would have went further...God I dont even want to think about it.
Yes we are in R but I cant call it a success yet,we are still trying and I'm pretty sure we will make it.
No matter what happens,I will never attempt another R in my life.Not in this relationship or any other down the road should we not make it.
Its just too much,it sucks the life out of you,hurts like hell and leaves your sanity teatering on the edge.
The odds do look good though.
How you like Chi- town BB?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Badblood said:


> The survival of the marriage is NOT more important than the well-being of the two persons involved in it.
> I sometimes think that possibly a trial separation would be helpful to achieve this. B1, don't bite my head off, but have you considered this option? I really believe that EI is doing all she can to help you heal, but you are having a really tough time dealing with some of the issues of the affair, and perhaps "stepping back", from the intensity of constant contact with her will help you regain some perspective. Nothing serious , but something like a mini-vacation. Go off by yourself somewhere you like, and detox and shed some stress. Actually this might be good for both of you.


Taking a min vaca is just not possible. Also, keep in mind I am only 3 1\2 months out past Dday#2. Everyone else on here is at least double that. I am, even as my counselor says, still very early into this. He says I am doing as well as anyone he has ever worked with at this stage. That my progress is very good and what I am going through is very normal. He says I am still not ready to let it go just yet, but I am getting there. He's waiting for something, not sure what though.

I am doing a LOT for just me, IC, reading online and reading books etc. EI is fully supportive of all these books and for me becoming a more mentally and physically healthier man. She has stated from the begining for me to work on ME and to make a better me. Even if that did not include her. She said this in the days after Dday. She has said it in the past week or two also. We cannot be a better us without us being a better individual. EI has done a lot of work, and still is. You are right in that NOW I need to work on me and I am doing just that. But, it's going to have to be along with EI. We can't seperate nor can I get away.

EI understands probably better than myself how imporant this is. How important it is for me to work on myself, that's why she is buying these books for me. I also find a lot online to read for myself.
There is no other way to do this right now. I have to work on me along side of working on us too.

I take a step back mentally often, I know it's not a vacation away, but I do step back occasionally and think about being alone, seperating, thinking could I do this on my own, would I be better off etc. I always come back with I am so much better with her than without. I was seriously inhibited before the A, now I am not, and I know I love like never before and I know she is the one I want to love. She, even in this pain, is the one who completes me. The one and only I want to grow old with. I am taking that and running with it.


----------



## EI

Badblood said:


> The survival of the marriage is NOT more important than the well-being of the two persons involved in it.
> I sometimes think that possibly a trial separation would be helpful to achieve this. B1, don't bite my head off, but have you considered this option? I really believe that EI is doing all she can to help you heal, but you are having a really tough time dealing with some of the issues of the affair, and perhaps "stepping back", from the intensity of constant contact with her will help you regain some perspective. Nothing serious , but something like a mini-vacation. Go off by yourself somewhere you like, and detox and shed some stress. Actually this might be good for both of you.


Do you understand that it has only been 4 months since D-Day? B1 and I are doing amazingly well considering all that we have to overcome. And, we share a great deal "more" of what goes on in our reconciliation than many others do on TAM. We think it might be helpful for someone who may be lurking to truly comprehend the incredible amount of work, commitment, time and dedication that it takes to reconcile a marriage after enduring the hardships that we have endured throughout our marriage and including my affair. It is our hope that as we work through this ourselves that, perhaps, our story might benefit others, as well.

Like you suggested, some time away sounds like a wonderful idea. B1 and I were just discussing that last night. Though, he and I, thought that we would like to have some time away *together*. 

You have been very negative with your comments towards me... always critical. You must see something that others do not because our pm boxes stay full of comments from individuals in reconciliation who thank us for inspiring them to work on their own reconciliations. 

I have asked you on this forum and in private messages to not post on this thread if you have nothing but negative comments regarding my reconciliation with B1. I'm asking you again. There was a time when I genuinely believed that your intentions towards B1 and me were well intended. I no longer believe that. I've suspected, for a while, that I may trigger you in some way with regard to your ex-wife.... I don't know. But, I am tired of your negative comments bringing me down. My time and energy is better spent working on my marriage to B1 and being a mother to my children. Those are my priorities. 

I have no problem with constructive criticism.... from anyone on TAM. I have taken my share and I have tried to separate the good from the bad and use it wisely. But, you go over the top. Please do not post on this thread again. If you wish to address another couple then please do so on their thread. If you wish to address something in this thread, then please create your own. I feel like you have actually contributed negatively to our reconciliation effort. 

I don't want to address this with you, again. No pm's either.

Thank you,
EI


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> I love like never before and I know she is the one I want to love. She, even in this pain, is the one who completes me. The one and only I want to grow old with. I am taking that and running with it.


And, I'm running right there alongside you.... every step of the way! It's me and you against the world, Baby! Remember that??? We're gonna have that, again! 

I love you, B1!!! <3


----------



## calvin

I wonder when and where I can say we have reconciled,that we are done and it was successful.
Or do you never really stop doing R.
Or maybe I'm thinking too much? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sara8

Empty Inside said:


> And, I'm running right there alongside you.... every step of the way! It's me and you against the world, Baby! Remember that??? We're gonna have that, again!
> 
> I love you, B1!!! <3


Empty inside:

Can I just offer some friendly advise from the betrayed spouses perspective?

If you don't like it let me know and I will delete this post if I can. 

Just know that your words mean nothing to your spouse at this point. 

You need to show him you have changed not tell him. 

BS's have been lied to for too long. Sometimes the betrayer will look the BS right in the eyes and swear on their children or dead grandmother that they are going to meet a friend, not an opposite sex lover.

Also, some BS's are lied to about money and their marital history is rewritten to suit the needs of the betrayer. 

I see that you are really really trying, at least with words.

It's so sad that you chose to try to solve marital rifts by having an affair rather than talking first when WORDS might have held some value.

Remember, though, right now words mean nothing.


----------



## B1

Sara8 said:


> Empty inside:
> 
> Can I just offer some friendly advise from the betrayed spouses perspective?
> 
> If you don't like it let me know and I will delete this post if I can.
> 
> Just know that your words mean nothing to your spouse at this point.
> 
> You need to show him you have changed not tell him.
> 
> BS's have been lied to for too long. Sometimes the betrayer will look the BS right in the eyes and swear on their children or dead grandmother that they are going to meet a friend, not an opposite sex lover.
> 
> Also, some BS's are lied to about money and their marital history is rewritten to suit the needs of the betrayer.
> 
> I see that you are really really trying, at least with words.
> 
> It's so sad that you chose to try to solve marital rifts by having an affair rather than talking first when WORDS might have held some value.
> 
> Remember, though, right now words mean nothing.




EI couldn't be doing more by her actions. No one can see that but me and her though. TAM just can't know what all she does right in the way of her positive actions towards our R and my wellbeing.

In her defense she DID talk to me plenty pre-A. We just covered this again last night. She talked to me over and over, tried everything to have an A with me but I was gone, not listening and shut down, she was completly on her own, she was alone in the marriage. But we have covered this to death here and in other posts. however, she NEVER uses this as an excuse for the A, she ownes her A and takes the blame for it. 


Some things she is actively doing to help me;

She has bought me books for one purpose, to help me.
When I need to talk, she drops everything, sits down, and we talk.
She doesn't get defensive when we talk.
She answers any and all questions.
She frequently hugs me and says ILY and I'm sorry.
She, like last night, cries over her choice, really truly cries about what she did. This can lead to self loathing which is not healthy for her and I step in and help her in dealing with that. She is NOT a bad person, she is a good person who made a bad choice. I made plenty of bad choices too.
She makes all my IC appointments, yes I could do it but she makes sure I am setup for them.
She remains transparent to the core. I know every password to every account.
She still gives me details of her coming and going.
She texts me throughout the day with what she is doing and just to say ILY.
She basicaly keeps in constant contact with me.
When driving, walking sitting on the couch together she frequently reaches for my hand.
I have post-its with ILY on them.
She posts on TAM as you can see about her feelings for me, it does help.

I can honestly say EI's actions speak louder then her words, you all just can't see them.I would not be here in R if her words were not backed up by her actions. I just couldn't do it without
knowing she was 110% sorry and doing all she is doing.

and on a side note: EI wouldn't be doing all she's doing either if I were not a changed man. EI had a decision to make too on Dday. Take a chance on a man who had PROVEN to be emotionally and physically absent from the marriage for years. She still chose to give me and us a chance. Just like I decided to give her another chance. I was changed and she was truly sorry. This was the begining of our new marriage.


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> Do you understand that it has only been 4 months since D-Day? B1 and I are doing amazingly well considering all that we have to overcome. And, we share a great deal "more" of what goes on in our reconciliation than many others do on TAM. We think it might be helpful for someone who may be lurking to truly comprehend the incredible amount of work, commitment, time and dedication that it takes to reconcile a marriage after enduring the hardships that we have endured throughout our marriage and including my affair. It is our hope that as we work through this ourselves that, perhaps, our story might benefit others, as well.
> 
> Like you suggested, some time away sounds like a wonderful idea. B1 and I were just discussing that last night. Though, he and I, thought that we would like to have some time away *together*.
> 
> You have been very negative with your comments towards me... always critical. You must see something that others do not because our pm boxes stay full of comments from individuals in reconciliation who thank us for inspiring them to work on their own reconciliations.
> 
> I have asked you on this forum and in private messages to not post on this thread if you have nothing but negative comments regarding my reconciliation with B1. I'm asking you again. There was a time when I genuinely believed that your intentions towards B1 and me were well intended. I no longer believe that. I've suspected, for a while, that I may trigger you in some way with regard to your ex-wife.... I don't know. But, I am tired of your negative comments bringing me down. My time and energy is better spent working on my marriage to B1 and being a mother to my children. Those are my priorities.
> 
> I have no problem with constructive criticism.... from anyone on TAM. I have taken my share and I have tried to separate the good from the bad and use it wisely. But, you go over the top. Please do not post on this thread again. If you wish to address another couple then please do so on their thread. If you wish to address something in this thread, then please create your own. I feel like you have actually contributed negatively to our reconciliation effort.
> 
> I don't want to address this with you, again. No pm's either.
> 
> Thank you,
> EI


I think that it is you that have some kind of Jones against me, EI. Re-read my recent posts and see if there was anything negative about them. On the contrary , in most of them I have SPECIFICALLY praised you for doing all you can to help B1.
In the post you quote, I said this, " I really believe that EI is doing all she can to help you heal".
In the prior posts to B1 I praised your attention to him and during his recent crisis about the Romance involved with your affair said that you would be there for him and that you would solve that issue together. Isn't that true? So where are you getting that I'm being negative? If you don't like me, fine, but don't tell me that I'm at fault, because that is just not true. But being a Gentleman, I will accede to your request as a courtesy.


----------



## EI

Sara8 said:


> Empty inside:
> 
> Can I just offer some friendly advise from the betrayed spouses perspective?
> 
> If you don't like it let me know and I will delete this post if I can.
> 
> Just know that your words mean nothing to your spouse at this point.
> 
> You need to show him you have changed not tell him.
> 
> BS's have been lied to for too long. Sometimes the betrayer will look the BS right in the eyes and swear on their children or dead grandmother that they are going to meet a friend, not an opposite sex lover.
> 
> Also, some BS's are lied to about money and their marital history is rewritten to suit the needs of the betrayer.
> 
> I see that you are really really trying, at least with words.
> 
> It's so sad that you chose to try to solve marital rifts by having an affair rather than talking first when WORDS might have held some value.
> 
> Remember, though, right now words mean nothing.


You can leave the post here and I'll address your points. What the readers of TAM see are my words. B1 is with me everyday and is seeing my actions. Have you read the words..... because they are describing the actions that B1 and I are, both, putting into reconciling our marriage. Because it is a *monumental* effort on both of our parts. B1 and I had serious issues in our marriage for several years leading up to my affair. If you had read my original thread or B1's original thread then I don't believe that you would have made this statement: *"It's so sad that you chose to try to solve marital rifts by having an affair rather than talking first when WORDS might have held some value."*

I talked and talked and talked and talked..... for years I talked to B1 about the problems in our marriage. I went to great lengths and effort to get him to work with me on improving our relationship with one another and our lives in general. I asked him, I begged him, I pleaded with him, I demanded and then, finally, I threatened him. I worked on myself and I encouraged him to do the same. I lost a great deal of weight, I went to therapy, I spent time with friends and encouraged him to do so, also. I did everything short of setting myself on fire to try get him to wake up and join the living. He was shut down and was having no part of it. IT IS NOT THAT I FAILED TO COMMUNICATE..... he was either unable or unwilling to respond to me at the time. He was suffering from low-T and depression, which is now being treated.... but I encouraged that a few years before and he saw a doctor and started taking injections for a while. Our insurance changed, we could no longer afford them at the time so he quit taking them. I set up therapy appointments for him for IC and for MC. He went to a few, but then he said that he could not continue to miss so much work. Honestly, at the time, even with the T-Injections that he took a few years ago and the the few therapy sessions there was no noticeable difference in our relationship.... B1 was NOT in a place where he was ready (or able) to make any changes. I told him over and over that I could no longer live that way. And, I couldn't. I was dying inside..... When you go to bed at night and wish that you wouldn't wake up in the morning, you KNOW you have to do something. I continued in IC the whole time.... save for a few months when it was simply not affordable. I had suffered from depression, as well, for years, but I couldn't continue living that way so I did the work on myself and I begged him to do so, as well. He told me that this was the way it was and way it would continue to be. He told me that he was defeated and that this was our lot in life. I said, "It's not mine and it's not our children's." 

I don't want to have the divorce discussion right now. We were struggling financially living together under one roof, doing so, under two, would not have been even remotely possible at the time or for the foreseeable future. We have a special needs son who is 23 years old. It takes both of us, under one roof, to take care of our family. Every situation does not fit neatly into a pre-packaged scenario that says: "If you don't do this, then you must do this."

B1 and I both contributed to the problems in our marriage in the years leading up to my affair. But, there came a time when I wanted a better life for all of us; B1, the children and myself. I tried, I tried very hard and for a very long time, but I couldn't get him on board. In my loneliness, hopelessness, helplessness and isolation I broke. I physically ached to to be held and touched. It felt so good to walk into a room and to see someone smile back at me instead of looking at me with that "What do you want, now?" expression. You may choose to think that is because I am/was a selfish, lying, deceiving, immoral, narcissist. I don't believe that I am or that I ever was. I'm human and I broke. Do I regret it?.... More than anything that I have ever done in my life. Even if B1 had not been working so hard on himself, and for us, these last few months, even if he were still closed off, shut down and emotionally and physically unavailable to me, like he was until just 4 months ago, I wish I could say that I had stayed true to my own convictions during that terribly painful period in our lives. But, I can't, because I failed, and I have to live with that, as well. And, it breaks my heart. I hate that B1 and our children see me as such a flawed wife and mother. I hate the heartache that B1 lives with every day and I know that no matter how much I truly love him (and I do.... because he made me fall back in love with him.... I didn't plan on it) it doesn't erase the hurt. Only love, patience and time, and a willingness to forgive one another's past transgressions can heal both of our broken hearts. 

B1 and I have both changed, in so many ways, but I remember why he was the one that I refused to let get away all of those years ago. 

You can only read my words, but you can't see what's in my heart or what our lives look like everyday.... only B1 and our children see that. We're going to make it. We won't just survive, we're gonna thrive!


----------



## Sara8

betrayed1 said:


> In her defense she DID talk to me plenty pre-A. We just covered this again last night. She talked to me over and over, tried everything to have an A with me but I was gone, not listening and shut down, she was completly on her own, she was alone in the marriage. But we have covered this to death here and in other posts. however, she NEVER uses this as an excuse for the A, she ownes her A and takes the blame for it.


If this is true, Empty is lucky that she has a man like you who is willing to admit this. 

It still does not in any way justify cheating. There was still divorce which would likely have awakened you to your faults, too. 

The thing I see a lot with BS's though is that many times they own too much of the blame, and this is not healthy. 

I am not alone in this thinking. One of the better IC counselors I visited told me this right off the bat and he had been in practice for 32 years. 

He said when the BS finally comes out of shock, they start to realize that the betrayer had a choice and they start to realistically view their part in the rift. 

If you are not taking on TOO MUCH OF THE BLAME, as a way to be agreeable to save your marriage than kudos to you. 

I initially shouldered too much inappropriate blame.

I could not see this. It was pointed out to me as I got further into IC. 

I am the caregiver personality. I like to nurture people and bolster them. It was not a major aspect of my personality, but it was there enough to make me to eager to shoulder the bulk of responsibility for the affair as well as worry to much about my cheating spouses own wellbeing after the fact.

It was also pointed out to me in MC that my husband had a blamer type personality. He was hypersensitive to criticism, too, and would lash out an anyone who said anything negative to him, no matter how gently offered or without noticing that it was in a spirit of helping or trying to offer insight. 

My STBEH admitted to this also. He said he couldn't handle any type of disagreement as he automatically took it as a "slam" or a criticism.


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## EI

betrayed1 said:


> In her defense she DID talk to me plenty pre-A. We just covered this again last night. She talked to me over and over, tried everything to have an A with me but I was gone, not listening and shut down, she was completly on her own, she was alone in the marriage. But we have covered this to death here and in other posts. however, she NEVER uses this as an excuse for the A, she owns her A and takes the blame for it.





Sara8 said:


> If this is true, *Empty is lucky that she has a man like you who is willing to admit this. *


Yes, I am.... very lucky, very blessed and very loved. And, I will spend the rest of my life making sure that B1 knows just how much I love him and how blessed I feel that he and I have choosen one another.... all over again! <3


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## Sara8

Empty Inside said:


> B1 and I have both changed, in so many ways, but I remember why he was the one that I refused to let get away all of those years ago.
> 
> You can only read my words, but you can't see what's in my heart or what our lives look like everyday.... only B1 and our children see that. We're going to make it. We won't just survive, we're gonna thrive!


I actually believe that you two can make it and will make it. 

Please don't prove me wrong. I need to learn to trust my own judgement again, after being so blindsided by my STBEH's affair.


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## Acabado

My bullsh!meter is always so up I always take with a grain of salt every word out the wyawards mouth but I have admit EI's case sound to me as honest as you can be, emotionaly transparent, waking the walk. Words which come right from the core, no pretending, no parroting. I've been seeing the transformation, right in front of my eyes. New B1 can't be fooled about it.

On the other hand I know B1 agrees with me he's also a lucky guy. Let's be honest here, a place just to heal from infidelity, EI had every reason to hold onto resentments, not made up stuff but totally accurate wounds to begin with. Without her choice to let go her long term, continued pain they had zero chance to survive, she only needed to believe, really believe, B1 was really a new man and then go forward. It toke very little time, she chose it. She decided not to dwell in the past when she could. Not many people can do this.


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## calvin

Sara8 said:


> I actually believe that you two can make it and will make it.
> 
> Please don't prove me wrong. I need to learn to trust my own judgement again, after being so blindsided by my STBEH's affair.


Thats good to hear Sarah.
From reading your other post I was sure you did'nt think R was possible. Its hard but it can be done.
Empty and B1 will make it,I'm pretty damn sure of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Acabado said:


> My bullsh!meter is always so up I always take with a grain of salt every word out the wyawards mouth but I have admit EI's case sound to me as honest as you can be, emotionaly transparent, waking the walk. Words which come right from the core, no pretending, no parroting. I've been seeing the transformation, right in front of my eyes. New B1 can't be fooled about it.
> 
> On the other hand I know B1 agrees with me he's also a lucky guy. Let's be honest here, a place just to heal from infidelity, EI had every reason to hold onto resentments, not made up stuff but totally accurate wounds to begin with. Without her choice to let go her long term, continued pain they had zero chance to survive, she only needed to believe, really believe, B1 was really a new man and then go forward. It toke very little time, she chose it. She decided not to dwell in the past when she could. Not many people can do this.


Yes, I am VERY aware of how lucky I am. She absolutely should have dumped my a$$. No one should have tolerated what she did for so long. She took a BIG leap of faith when she decided to give me another chance. I know that doesn't go well her on TAM for the BS to say I'm lucky. But I am. She didn't have to try again, she could have held on to bitterness and resentment, she could have said no to R just as easily I could have. We both recognized our parts in this train wreck as I called it.

You are also right, when she decided to give me that chance she had to let go of the past, let go of a LOT of resentment and bitterness, she did it too in a very short time. 

I really hurt EI bad back then, I mean really bad, and it was a prolonged assault for years on her core self as a woman. I made her feel ugly, unwanted, undesired, I ignored her needs emotionaly and physically.

It still comes up every know and then. When it does I simply let her let it out. All I can do is tell here how incredibly sorry I am for being such an a$$. But for the most part she has let it all go, she did get past it and has opened herself back up to me. Taking that chance yet again at being hurt. I will NEVER do that again. As she also said, If I shut down again it's D time, same for another A. Neither of us will tolerate another bad choice.

It took two of us to make this mess and it's taking the two of us to clean it up. But we are doing it, and doing it well I think. Our counselors says we are a miracle. Even though we are early into this, he sees great things ahead for us and so do I 

Now, does saying all this make it easy, hell no. It's hard, it hurts, it's painful but we are both willing to work on this and give it 110%. We are both worth it. I love this woman, I mean, I really love her, can't help it. And I know she loves me, really truly loves me. And she did not plan on every loving me again and I didn't think I could love period. Now look at us...Wow.....who knew


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## CantSitStill

B1 and Emtpy Calvin and I were talking about you two last night, we talked about how we can see Empty doing alot with all her heart and how you two are going through all of the pain we have been going thru. Keep it up every day and you guys will make it. But as I told Calvin, we can never ever take eachother for granted and I believe we won't and I don't foresee that happening with you guys either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Nobody can see what's going on in our homes. So no one really knows what is going on but you two. If one of you feels something is wrong, address it. That's all I can say. Don't worry what others think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Sara8 said:


> I actually believe that you two can make it and will make it.
> 
> Please don't prove me wrong. I need to learn to trust my own judgement again, after being so blindsided by my STBEH's affair.


Hi Sara -- you could not have picked 4 better people to watch/listen to/guide you/help you then Calvin and CSS /B1 and EI.

These 4 people are doing their best in their new marriages and IMO will make it because they realize that there will be bad days and good days -- but they have also learned how easy it is to take one another for granted and are very thankful to have a second chance. Both WS have learned from their mistakes -- but most importantly have admitted them -- and have been upfront with their BS and have been an open book.

Unfortunately in your situation -- I think you did the right thing by divorcing your exh -- as he has his own major issues and never once did I ever read from you that he ever admitted them.

Take care !!


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## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> I wonder when and where I can say we have reconciled,that we are done and it was successful.
> Or do you never really stop doing R.
> Or maybe I'm thinking too much?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reconcilliation is lifetime, but don't let that get you down. We can and will feel better as we continue this journey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Hey CSS -- how are u and how is that great job coming along ?


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## CantSitStill

Remember what Beowulf and Morrigan always said. They are 20 yrs and still work on their marriage. They still have bad days but not as bad as the beginning. I miss them : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

jh52 said:


> Hey CSS -- how are u and how is that great job coming along ?


So far getting better, I got to teach the afternoon class because the teacher had a meeting. I love teaching  ty, how are you and wife doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

"Or maybe I'm thinking too much?"

Calvin -- I think that sometimes you and CSS both think too much -- but that is who you both are as people. The thing to do is after you think about something -- don't dwell on it -- let it go !!


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## CantSitStill

lol yes usually I'm the one over thinking everything. We are good together, we support eachother emotionally, mentally and in other loving ways 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

oops thought we were on ups and downs lol I'm lost
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> So far getting better, I got to teach the afternoon class because the teacher had a meeting. I love teaching  ty, how are you and wife doing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am doing good. We had a good Saturday -- and Saturday night went to our neighbors and very close friends for dinner and drinks.

Sunday, MRs JH had another bad day where she had trouble with her speech and understanding.

Today she is doing a little better.

Thanks for asking -- appreciate all the positive thoughts and prayers from you and Calvin.


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## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> oops thought we were on ups and downs lol I'm lost
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are a hoot CSS !!:smthumbup::smthumbup:

Talk to you later !!!


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## CantSitStill

Sorry to hear she's been going through all of this, hope you two have a nice evening jh52
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CSS is lucky she became a Bears fan )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Sara8 said:


> I actually believe that you two can make it and will make it.
> 
> Please don't prove me wrong. I need to learn to trust my own judgement again, after being so blindsided by my STBEH's affair.


Thank you, Sara. We're really working on this. And, I truly hope and believe that we are going to make it. And, you know what, the "work," it's not a bad gig.... loving one another, talking, sharing, communicating, the good, the bad and the mundane. Sometimes, the "work" is holding hands, watching a movie together, running an errand so that the other one won't have to, etc. There is the "hard stuff," too..... answering his questions when I know that the answer is going to hurt him.... hurts me, too. But, we get through it.... layer by layer, and we get closer each time.

One last thing..... Sara, your judgement was not flawed. Your husband was. Love is blind..... you loved him and, apparently, he loved himself, as well.

Take care,
EI


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## EI

Hey guys, looks like there was a party on this thread and we didn't even get invited!!! LOL 

I'm teasing! I have always liked having company over. Y'all can hang out anytime, even if we aren't home. The back door is always unlocked.


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## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Hey guys, looks like there was a party on this thread and we didn't even get invited!!! LOL
> 
> I'm teasing! I have always liked having company over. Y'all can hang out anytime, even if we aren't home. The back door is always unlocked.


Thats what CSS said.....whoops Go Bears!!!,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Acabado said:


> My bullsh!meter is always so up I always take with a grain of salt every word out the wyawards mouth but I have admit EI's case sound to me as honest as you can be, emotionaly transparent, waking the walk. Words which come right from the core, no pretending, no parroting. I've been seeing the transformation, right in front of my eyes. New B1 can't be fooled about it.
> 
> On the other hand I know B1 agrees with me he's also a lucky guy. Let's be honest here, a place just to heal from infidelity, EI had every reason to hold onto resentments, not made up stuff but totally accurate wounds to begin with. Without her choice to let go her long term, continued pain they had zero chance to survive, she only needed to believe, really believe, B1 was really a new man and then go forward. It toke very little time, she chose it. She decided not to dwell in the past when she could. Not many people can do this.


Acabado,

Thank you..... for those very, very kind words. We appreciate the encouragement more than you know. I think B1 and I are both feeling lucky and incredibly blessed these days!

And, thank you for following our story. I know that you have been one of the veteran *TAM*_ers_ who have followed our journey since we first began to post. Your input has been invaluable to us.


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## EI

calvin said:


> Go Bears!!!,


Okay, Calvin, just for you!!!

GO BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smthumbup:


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Okay, Calvin, just for you!!!
> 
> GO BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smthumbup:


Morning Everyone !!!:sleeping:


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## EI

jh52 said:


> Morning Everyone !!!:sleeping:


Morning jh, morning everyone!

What do we have going on today? Our youngest, our 17 year old starts his first part-time job this afternoon when he gets home from school. He will be working at a local mall in a store that sells sports apparel. The employee discount is going to be awesome this Christmas. Especially since we have a son-in-law who bleeds blue.

Only 84 more days 'til Christmas..................

http://www.xmasclock.com/


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## CantSitStill

Yikes! Christmas is right around the corner already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Hi guys, just wanted to thank you all. I've bad a few things on my mind lately regarding Hs A. I've tried to put it to the back of my mind but found it difficult. After reading back the last few pages of this thread last night it gave me the courage to speak to him this morning, and I'm so glad I did. We had a really good heart to heart and I told him everything that was on my mind and the worries I was having. We talked for over 2 hours this morning, then went for a lovely walk. I feel much better now and am able to move on a little more.
Thanks again
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi guys, just wanted to thank you all. I've bad a few things on my mind lately regarding Hs A. I've tried to put it to the back of my mind but found it difficult. After reading back the last few pages of this thread last night it gave me the courage to speak to him this morning, and I'm so glad I did. We had a really good heart to heart and I told him everything that was on my mind and the worries I was having. We talked for over 2 hours this morning, then went for a lovely walk. I feel much better now and am able to move on a little more.
> Thanks again
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Take things hour by hour, day by day DG.


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## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi guys, just wanted to thank you all. I've bad a few things on my mind lately regarding Hs A. I've tried to put it to the back of my mind but found it difficult. After reading back the last few pages of this thread last night it gave me the courage to speak to him this morning, and I'm so glad I did. We had a really good heart to heart and I told him everything that was on my mind and the worries I was having. We talked for over 2 hours this morning, then went for a lovely walk. I feel much better now and am able to move on a little more.
> Thanks again
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


daisygirl , I am SO glad this thread has helped you. That's what it's all about. We all share our stories to help us but also to help others. 

I know what it's like to have one of those really good talks, where you cover issues and get to move on past something that's been bothering you. It just feels good.

Glad you worked some things out with the hubby


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi guys, just wanted to thank you all. I've bad a few things on my mind lately regarding Hs A. I've tried to put it to the back of my mind but found it difficult. After reading back the last few pages of this thread last night it gave me the courage to speak to him this morning, and I'm so glad I did. We had a really good heart to heart and I told him everything that was on my mind and the worries I was having. *We talked for over 2 hours this morning, then went for a lovely walk. I feel much better now and am able to move on a little more.*
> Thanks again
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That sounds so nice, daisygirl, I'm glad that you're feeling better today. Those long talks can do wonders.... and followed by a lovely walk sounds blissful!  Can you remind me? How long have you and your husband been in reconciliation? Can you post a link, here, to your original thread?


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## daisygirl 41

Empty Inside said:


> That sounds so nice, daisygirl, I'm glad that you're feeling better today. Those long talks can do wonders.... and followed by a lovely walk sounds blissful!  Can you remind me? How long have you and your husband been in reconciliation? Can you post a link, here, to your original thread?


Hi EI. H and I have been in R for 7 months now.
I can't post a link at the moment as I'm on my mobile, but briefly
H had EA turned PA with a co worker. We have been married nearly 19 years and have 3 kids. The initial EA was very intense, he called it off but we struggled for months. We separated in Dec until March when the EA then turned PA. within 3 weeks of it going PA he had ended it and wanted to come home. Even while we were separated we saw each other every day and spent a lot of time together.

We sent through a year of hell, but I never gave up on him. I believe my H also has some kind of MLC/breakdown. That's not an excuse for him cheating, but I hardly recognised the man I married. For 17 years he was a loving devoted family man. He changed before my eyes!
Anyway, I never stopped loving him, a d even though I was starting to build my life without him, I knew in my heart of hearts that he wasn't happy with her but he had to find that out for himself. As I said it took just 3 weeks of him having his 'freedom' to realise that he had made a huge mistake.

So we are doing well. H is doing all the heavy lifting and out marriage is on the way to becoming better than it has been for a very long time. We both had things we needed to change about ourselves and I have had intensive IC to help me through this. 

It is my sons 18th birthday in Saturday and our 19th wedding Anniversary next week. We had a marriage worth fighting for And it's looking more positive everyday
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Yawn....morning,love sleeping in
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi EI. H and I have been in R for 7 months now.
> I can't post a link at the moment as I'm on my mobile, but briefly
> H had EA turned PA with a co worker. We have been married nearly 19 years and have 3 kids. The initial EA was very intense, he called it off but we struggled for months. We separated in Dec until March when the EA then turned PA. within 3 weeks of it going PA he had ended it and wanted to come home. Even while we were separated we saw each other every day and spent a lot of time together.
> 
> We sent through a year of hell, but I never gave up on him. I believe my H also has some kind of MLC/breakdown. That's not an excuse for him cheating, but I hardly recognised the man I married. For 17 years he was a loving devoted family man. He changed before my eyes!
> Anyway, I never stopped loving him, a d even though I was starting to build my life without him, I knew in my heart of hearts that he wasn't happy with her but he had to find that out for himself. As I said it took just 3 weeks of him having his 'freedom' to realise that he had made a huge mistake.
> 
> So we are doing well. H is doing all the heavy lifting and out marriage is on the way to becoming better than it has been for a very long time. We both had things we needed to change about ourselves and I have had intensive IC to help me through this.
> 
> It is my sons 18th birthday in Saturday and our 19th wedding Anniversary next week. We had a marriage worth fighting for And it's looking more positive everyday
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's sounds like things are going as well as can be expected. Which isn't to say that it's easy, because it never is. The question is: Is it worth it? And, you've already decided that, for yourself, it is. I think that the fact that he moved out and then came back home speaks volumes about his desire to reconcile. 

I believe what you say about your husband having been a devoted, loving family man for 17 years. I'm sure that there were issues in your marriage.... there are issues in every marriage, not one is perfect or without it's share of challenges. Unfortunately, because of my own experience with infidelity, I do think that a mid-life crises, while in no way excuses infidelity, is often a factor in affairs when couples have been married for several years and the children are getting older.

With your son's 18th birthday and your anniversary coming up, it sounds like you have a reason to celebrate! I hope that you and your husband are able to enjoy both of these special occasions in your life and use some of that "happy energy" to continue moving forward in your reconciliation. A few weeks ago, our *grandson* (I still have a hard time saying those words..... but, I don't have a hard time enjoying being his "MiMi") turned 1 and our daughter and s-i-l threw a huge birthday party for about 50 of their closest friends and family. All of our children were there and we took a family portrait. I remember feeling so happy and blessed that we were all there, together, happy, as one family.... one united family! <3


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## daisygirl 41

Thankyou EI. It's nice to be able to post on a thread and be supported in my choice to R. It isn't easy at times but I'm 1000% sure I have made the right decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thankyou EI. It's nice to be able to post on a thread and be supported in my choice to R. It isn't easy at times but I'm 1000% sure I have made the right decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think we all made the right choice,it was'nt a decision I made overnight
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Got the house clean for CSS.Worried about her,teacher is wanting to talk with her after work today.
She's only been there fuve weeks,they need to give her more of a chance.
Once CSS has got something down,she's got it.
Hope its ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thankyou EI. It's nice to be able to post on a thread and be supported in my choice to R. It isn't easy at times but I'm 1000% sure I have made the right decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think anyone...ANY ONE who is trying to reconcile should be supported. I don't give a crap what the circumstances are. If that is the choice that both spouses have made, then it needs to be respected. All too often on TAM do we see the whole - "Be an alpha and walk or show him/her who's boss" kind of stuff, coupled with "he/she sh!t on you for how long and you wanna reconcile? Are you crazy?!!". 

These are things that needn't be thrown in people's faces. Instead, it gets like a mob mentality. All it takes is for one naysayer to speak and everyone jumps on the WS or BS in a free for all ~ hence a lot of bannings.

I'm glad people can feel free to discuss reconciliation in this thread and do so without fear of that stuff for the most part. Yeah, there are the occasional posters that will come in here and "call out" others, but those are few and far in between.

I would also say that a lot of us need to reconcile on a personal level. For me, I know I've gone through a ton of changes since I caught Regret back in March. I see things for what they are now. I don't walk on egg shells any longer. I have no problem calling out what I see wrong if I see it. That, in and of itself, is my self reconciliation. I like it.


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## calvin

Nice rant Dig.
Your right.There is no one size fits all.I think it follows a certain pattern but no relationships are the same.
Those who question the choice to R dont know the circumstances we are going through.
We let a lot hang out here on Tams but we hold back a little for us and our spouses.
We know them best.
To take on an R for either one is a huge comitment. Its not for the weak.
We will be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Well Calvin and I are about 7 months R also. It's rough stuff especially for the betrayed spouse. It's like when you get a thought about the A it gets stuck in your brain. I suggest you tell him every time you struggle. Talk and talk, also listen. As a WS I have totally changed my attidtude about marriage and have learned that I must always put his feelings first. Hang in there, we sometimes feel like we are hanging by a string but neither of us are willing to give up. Some people come here and say it's a cheerleading group, I feel we are all just encouraging and supporting eachother. Thank God we have TAM to get support, vent or just express the good and the bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> Well Calvin and I are about 7 months R also. It's rough stuff especially for the betrayed spouse. It's like when you get a thought about the A it gets stuck in your brain. I suggest you tell him every time you struggle. Talk and talk, also listen. As a WS I have totally changed my attidtude about marriage and have learned that I must always put his feelings first. Hang in there, we sometimes feel like we are hanging by a string but neither of us are willing to give up. Some people come here and say it's a cheerleading group, I feel we are all just encouraging and supporting eachother. Thank God we have TAM to get support, vent or just express the good and the bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOT
> 
> So what if its a cheer leading group anyway! Lol
> I'm cheering!
> My H is home and we are doing great! I think that gives me something to cheer about!
> We are all doing great, yes we all have our bad days, mine started out ****ty, I cried all the way home from work, but as soon as I walked in the door my H wrapped his arms around me, held me until I stopped, then patiently answered all my worries. So really it turned out to be a good day.
> I was holding back with the questions because I didn't want to hurt him. I know how much it hurts him to see me upset, and I know you all understand that, but today was a major break through for us. H said I must speak to him whenever I am upset or worried, that he will always answer my questions, and always be here for me.
> We have bad a lot of challenges in our 19 years together but we will make it I'm sure of it
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

daisygirl 41 said:


> CantSitStill said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Calvin and I are about 7 months R also. It's rough stuff especially for the betrayed spouse. It's like when you get a thought about the A it gets stuck in your brain. I suggest you tell him every time you struggle. Talk and talk, also listen. As a WS I have totally changed my attidtude about marriage and have learned that I must always put his feelings first. Hang in there, we sometimes feel like we are hanging by a string but neither of us are willing to give up. Some people come here and say it's a cheerleading group, I feel we are all just encouraging and supporting eachother. Thank God we have TAM to get support, vent or just express the good and the bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOT
> 
> So what if its a cheer leading group anyway! Lol
> I'm cheering!
> My H is home and we are doing great! I think that gives me something to cheer about!
> We are all doing great, yes we all have our bad days, mine started out ****ty, I cried all the way home from work, but as soon as I walked in the door my H wrapped his arms around me, held me until I stopped, then patiently answered all my worries. So really it turned out to be a good day.
> I was holding back with the questions because I didn't want to hurt him. I know how much it hurts him to see me upset, and I know you all understand that, but today was a major break through for us. H said I must speak to him whenever I am upset or worried, that he will always answer my questions, and always be here for me.
> We have bad a lot of challenges in our 19 years together but we will make it I'm sure of it
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> That is great! Also he told you to talk to him so that he can answer your questions and be supportive so please keep doing that. It will help you heal and will bring you two closer as you both learn how to communicate
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


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## SomedayDig

Rah Rah Ree...kick em in the knee!
Rah Rah Rass...kick em in the other knee!


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> daisygirl 41 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is great! Also he told you to talk to him so that he can answer your questions and be supportive so please keep doing that. It will help you heal and will bring you two closer as you both learn how to communicate
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Thx CSS
> Those lines of communication have been well and truly opened again and that's the way they shall stay!
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


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## daisygirl 41

SomedayDig said:


> Rah Rah Ree...kick em in the knee!
> Rah Rah Rass...kick em in the other knee!


Lol!
I'm off to bed now before someone pops in here and tells me how I'm acting self righteous while being blindsided by my cheating H!!
Nite all
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> *So what if its a cheer leading group anyway! Lol
> I'm cheering!*
> _My H is home and we are doing great! I think that gives me something to cheer about!
> We are all doing great, yes we all have our bad days, mine started out ****ty, I cried all the way home from work, but as soon as I walked in the door my H wrapped his arms around me, held me until I stopped, then patiently answered all my worries. So really it turned out to be a good day.
> I was holding back with the questions because I didn't want to hurt him. I know how much it hurts him to see me upset, and I know you all understand that, but today was a major break through for us. H said I must speak to him whenever I am upset or worried, that he will always answer my questions, and always be here for me.
> We have bad a lot of challenges in our 19 years together but we will make it I'm sure of it
> X_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See...... this is the good stuff! And, I think that when one of us *TAM*_ers _in Reconciliation has a victory, that we all enjoy celebrating that victory with one another. Likewise, when one of us has a bad day, a trigger or a setback, we are all quick to jump in and support, encourage, lift up and inspire each another. 

I struggle to find the downside to this "cheer leading thread!"

daisygirl, I am so happy that your day has "turned out to be a good day." That, in itself, makes my day a little brighter, too!


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## calvin

Sis Ba Boom,gonna take her to the bedroom!
Its cool to see everyone here who are trying to R.
So far from what I've seen with all of us,it looks good.
It sucks,it hurts but it also feels good,if that makes any sense.
Cheering is good,as long as we keep trying.
BB did make some good points.I think he could have eased up some though.
This just flat out sucks.
I do see the future,its looking good for all here.
Only the weak give up and I dont blame them.
It all just depends...on us as individuals,as couples.It depends on love,strenghts,forgiveness and it depends on how much we are willing to do the right thing.
I know its hard as hell....aw fvck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Four couples on this thread in R.
Four couples that are going to make it.
I'm glad you started this thread Empty,lots of support here,we are all going to be just fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

morning all. 

Had a good day yesterday. Me and EI talked more about an issue that was really bothering and hurting me. It's about "comparing"...I was doing so good and that demon creeped up on me again. BUT EI talked me through it and helped me reason it out. I found a few things online about these feelings and problems too. It's a very normal problem after and affair. Affairs can just suck the confidence right out of you. 

Also found a site that said the first 6 months after an affair is still consider the trauma stage, WOW! We are not even at 4 months yet.


*Dont forget...cheerleading practice at 11am this morning 
Calvin and Dig please don't forget your cups again...geeez


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## jh52

B1 -- you are doing the best that could be expected from anyone in your shoes.

EI -- is also doing her best to help herself and you as well.

Don't beat yourself up --- keep looking forward -- that road ahead will be long with some bumps -- but hopefully most of the ride will smooth out as more time passes !!


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## margrace

calvin said:


> Four couples on this thread in R.
> Four couples that are going to make it.
> I'm glad you started this thread Empty,lots of support here,we are all going to be just fine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


maybe even more than four. i'm sure that i'm not the only lurker on this thread. i'm sure i'm not the only BS who is not (currently) as able as all of you to believe in the authenticity of R in her/his *own* situation with her *own* WS -- but who has not rejected that possibility either.

i'm trying to learn from all sides and be open to my own process as i work through this. i have seen that posters with completely different perspectives often have equally compelling advice to offer, and that can be both helpful and confusing.

R seems false or unthinkable for some BSs; some try it in good faith but it doesn't work out, often because their partner isn't actually as invested and/or remorseful and/or worthy of another chance as they seemed.

what i have learned from the couples on this thread (as well as others) is: _some_ couples can do this. some are early in R (like some of you), some are years into R, and they experience R as real and rewarding.

i don't know yet that my WH and i can be one of those couples, but i have not given up hope.

so thank you for sharing your journey.


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## B1

jh52 said:


> B1 -- you are doing the best that could be expected from anyone in your shoes.
> 
> EI -- is also doing her best to help herself and you as well.
> 
> Don't beat yourself up --- keep looking forward -- that road ahead will be long with some bumps -- but hopefully most of the ride will smooth out as more time passes !!


Thanks JH...

I was really beating myself up yesterday but feeling better since last night and this morning. You are right, I am doing the best I can, I cannot do any more right now. And EI, well she is doing her very best too. 

It's all part of the ride right now. Up and down and around we go 
But..I am glad and excited to be on this ride with EI.


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## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> morning all.
> 
> Had a good day yesterday. Me and EI talked more about an issue that was really bothering and hurting me. It's about "comparing"...I was doing so good and that demon creeped up on me again. BUT EI talked me through it and helped me reason it out. I found a few things online about these feelings and problems too. It's a very normal problem after and affair. Affairs can just suck the confidence right out of you.
> 
> Also found a site that said the first 6 months after an affair is still consider the trauma stage, WOW! We are not even at 4 months yet.
> 
> 
> *Dont forget...cheerleading practice at 11am this morning
> Calvin and Dig please don't forget your cups again...geeez


I'll be there with my cup on but why do I have to wear a skirt all the time?
We dont talk about the A a whole lot anymore.
I do have a couple questions that came to mind this morning that I have to ask and now I'm scared as hell as to what the answers will be.
Crap,why? I hate life right now...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Welcome to the club marg.
I'm sorry youre a member.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

calvin said:


> Welcome to the club marg.
> I'm sorry youre a member.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you. sorry to be meeting you all here...


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## B1

calvin said:


> I'll be there with my cup on but why do I have to wear a skirt all the time?
> We dont talk about the A a whole lot anymore.
> I do have a couple questions that came to mind this morning that I have to ask and now I'm scared as hell as to what the answers will be.
> Crap,why? I hate life right now...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Two schools of thought on those questions...

first - let it out and get it over with.

Second - as my counselor would say..what's the purpose? Really think about the "why" you are asking, is it that important, is it critical to help you in healing? 

Sometimes after really thinking about those questions I have determined that it wasn't critical, that whatever the answer it wasn't going to help me heal, or us heal, And I let it go.

Remember too, those questions are about life THEN, NOT now. BIG difference. Our wives were in a fantasy world then, not thinking straight at all, so, if you ask, you are likely to hear someting your not going to like.


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## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Two schools of thought on those questions...
> 
> first - let it out and get it over with.
> 
> Second - as my counselor would say..what's the purpose? Really think about the "why" you are asking, is it that important, is it critical to help you in healing?
> 
> Sometimes after really thinking about those questions I have determined that it wasn't critical, that whatever the answer it wasn't going to help me heal, or us heal, And I let it go.
> 
> Remember too, those questions are about life THEN, NOT now. BIG difference. Our wives were in a fantasy world then, not thinking straight at all, so, if you ask, you are likely to hear someting your not going to like.


Some ansrwered questions have brought a big sigh of relief out of me.
Most just hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Hey Guys,

Sorry that I haven't posted or responded to some comments. I've been really, really busy and I have to run to the grocery as we speak. Trying to get things done earlier than usual. I'll get back to you guys later. 

Take care,
EI


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## calvin

Have a good day Empty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

calvin said:


> Four couples on this thread in R.
> Four couples that are going to make it.
> *I'm glad you started this thread Empty,lots of support here,we are all going to be just fine.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I wish that I could take credit for it.... but B1 started this thread and I do believe that it has turned into something very positive and helpful, particularly for those in the midst of reconciliation. I have been tossing around an idea all day. I think I am going to start my own new thread, a blog entitled: "EI's Journey.... This WS's honest, uncensored, not politically (TAM) correct, in real time, journey to redemption and reconciliation!" Stay tuned.... it's going to be _veeeeeeery_ different.... but, I am hoping that it will be beneficial for those of us who are in the early moments, days, weeks and months of reconciliation. I would like to be able to provide some very personal, honest and, hopefully, beneficial insight, from my experience, for individuals during what are those early critical moments after the discovery of infidelity. Anyone will be welcomed to comment, but the purpose of the thread will be to give uncensored insight into the mind of a WS. After the shock of D-Day sets in, the first thing that most BS's want to know is: Why? How? When? Where? What were you thinking? Etc.....? I'm hoping that some uncensored honesty will be beneficial for all of us who are _Coping With Infidelity_!


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## EI

Damn! I just got the phone call that no parent wants. Our son has been in an accident............


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## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Damn! I just got the phone call that no parent wants. Our son has been in an accident............


Praying for your son and family now.
Hope everything is ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> I wish that I could take credit for it.... but B1 started this thread and I do believe that it has turned into something very positive and helpful, particularly for those in the midst of reconciliation. I have been tossing around an idea all day. I think I am going to start my own new thread, a blog entitled: "EI's Journey.... This WS's honest, uncensored, not politically (TAM) correct, in real time, journey to redemption and reconciliation!" Stay tuned.... it's going to be _veeeeeeery_ different.... but, I am hoping that it will be beneficial for those of us who are in the early moments, days, weeks and months of reconciliation. I would like to be able to provide some very personal, honest and, hopefully, beneficial insight, from my experience, for individuals during what are those early critical moments after the discovery of infidelity. Anyone will be welcomed to comment, but the purpose of the thread will be to give uncensored insight into the mind of a WS. After the shock of D-Day sets in, the first thing that most BS's want to know is: Why? How? When? Where? What were you thinking? Etc.....? I'm hoping that some uncensored honesty will be beneficial for all of us who are _Coping With Infidelity_!


Sounds like a great idea Em..oh update us on your son's accident!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Damn! I just got the phone call that no parent wants. Our son has been in an accident............


Praying for your son and your family.


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## SomedayDig

Got you guys in our prayers over here, too!


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## EI

Thanks for the prayers, guys. Our son is fine, it was our youngest, but his car is likely totaled. The front air bags deployed, the front bumper and the hood are mangled...... We have 3 youthful male drivers on our insurance, ages 22, 19 and 17..... Our car insurance cost twice as much as our first house payment did. Seems like B1 and I can not catch a break, but I am going to count my blessings because my baby boy is okay. I think B1 and I are just going to chill for the rest of the day.

I hope everyone has a lovely evening. Take care of each other. Life is short and uncertain. Be good to the ones you love and who love you back! <3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

I plan on having a lovely evening with Regret watching our DVR of "Face Off" and then "Sons of Anarchy"! Ohhh...it's gonna be a good night. Daughter just went up to bed and the boy is following in 30 minutes. Cuddle time!

Glad to hear your boy is fine guys. Jeez, that's scary stuff to think of.

However, you speak the truth when you say life is short and uncertain. It really makes one think of the choices that we've made in our lives. Yes, Regret made absolutely deplorable choices, but I was the one who has chosen to attempt reconciliation first. She followed suit and has done pretty good. Yes, the trickle truth was extremely difficult, but I hung in there.

I was asked by my IC last week a simple question. "How do you kiss your wife good night?" It was a powerful question. My answer was as follows:

As a kid, I used to love watching Buggs Bunny. I would sit there on Saturday mornings and laugh so hard at the craziness that was the Looney Toons show. Then, for about 2 decades, I stopped watching it. I got busy with life and forgot about my pal Buggs, who I grew up with. Until I had children. Then I began to watch him again. And ya know what? I laughed my a$$ off!! Heck, I laughed even more because as a kid, I didn't understand the subtlety that IS Buggs Bunny. I understood him now...really could see the Flight of the Valkyre and the Barber of Saville spoofs - even Buggs in drag!! 

I loved Buggs when I was a kid and didn't fully understand it. Once he truly came back into my life and I did understand him, I loved him even more.

I know life ain't a f'ng cartoon. I wish it was sometimes, cuz there are people I would drop an ACME anvil on in a heartbeat. Alas, this is real life. And I love Regret more now, because I truly understand her.


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## calvin

Glad everyone is safe.
Good news.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Glad to hear he's fine. 

Great insight Dig.


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> I plan on having a lovely evening with Regret watching our DVR of "Face Off" and then "Sons of Anarchy"! Ohhh...it's gonna be a good night. Daughter just went up to bed and the boy is following in 30 minutes. Cuddle time!
> 
> Glad to hear your boy is fine guys. Jeez, that's scary stuff to think of.
> 
> However, you speak the truth when you say life is short and uncertain. It really makes one think of the choices that we've made in our lives. Yes, Regret made absolutely deplorable choices, but I was the one who has chosen to attempt reconciliation first. She followed suit and has done pretty good. Yes, the trickle truth was extremely difficult, but I hung in there.
> 
> I was asked by my IC last week a simple question. "How do you kiss your wife good night?" It was a powerful question. My answer was as follows:
> 
> As a kid, I used to love watching Buggs Bunny. I would sit there on Saturday mornings and laugh so hard at the craziness that was the Looney Toons show. Then, for about 2 decades, I stopped watching it. I got busy with life and forgot about my pal Buggs, who I grew up with. Until I had children. Then I began to watch him again. And ya know what? I laughed my a$$ off!! Heck, I laughed even more because as a kid, I didn't understand the subtlety that IS Buggs Bunny. I understood him now...really could see the Flight of the Valkyre and the Barber of Saville spoofs - even Buggs in drag!!
> 
> I loved Buggs when I was a kid and didn't fully understand it. Once he truly came back into my life and I did understand him, I loved him even more.
> 
> I know life ain't a f'ng cartoon. I wish it was sometimes, cuz there are people I would drop an ACME anvil on in a heartbeat. Alas, this is real life. And I love Regret more now, because I truly understand her.


To you and Regret !!

Eric Clapton - Wonderful Tonight - YouTube


----------



## SomedayDig

jh52 said:


> To you and Regret !!
> 
> Eric Clapton - Wonderful Tonight - YouTube


A song we've danced to at many a wedding. She is a stunningly tall blonde with longish hair. It works!

Thanks Acabado!!

Sorry...we just started SoA. Gotta jam!!


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> To you and Regret !!
> 
> Eric Clapton - Wonderful Tonight - YouTube



Hey, hey, hey.... B1 and I like that song, toooooooooooo!


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> @%&*(^$#%&!



You okay, joe?


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> thank you. sorry to be meeting you all here...


margrace,

None of us are happy about the reason that we're here. But, in spite of it all, we have our great moments! Please feel free to share yours with us.... the good, the bad and everything in between. For some reason sharing it with others who understand your pain as only as BS or WS can, seems to help.... at least a little bit..... sometimes, it even helps a lot.


----------



## margrace

Empty Inside said:


> margrace,
> 
> None of us are happy about the reason that we're here. But, in spite of it all, we have our great moments! Please feel free to share yours with us.... the good, the bad and everything in between. For some reason sharing it with others who understand your pain as only as BS or WS can, seems to help.... at least a little bit..... sometimes, it even helps a lot.


thank you 

i have posted a bit on CWI, sometimes responding or asking questions. when i read your words about _sharing moments_, my reaction was tears. partly because, like lots of people i guess, i carry this around alone except for IC, and partly because so many of the moments are really painful, as everyone here knows.

here's where i am this morning: afraid of being hurt again. this is keeping me very cautious about committing to going forward. i know that if i am going to give R a real chance, an _authentic_ real try, i will have to accept that i will get no up-front guarantees of success or safety. a leap of faith will be required. 

i want to do everything i can to ascertain how committed and remorseful WH is, and how willing/able he is to address his underlying issues as part of this process -- but even so, a leap of faith will eventually be required.

i was talking with a friend of mine who is dealing with a different kind of betrayal but a similar leap of faith. "Yes," she said, "it might not work, and if it doesn't, we'll get a divorce. if that happens, i'll deal with it -- i'm not that fragile."

i'm pretty hardy in many ways, or at least i used to be. but now, emotionally? yes, i'm that fragile. i don't have that feeling of, sure, bring on the storm, i can weather it.


----------



## calvin

margrace said:


> thank you
> 
> i have posted a bit on CWI, sometimes responding or asking questions. when i read your words about _sharing moments_, my reaction was tears. partly because, like lots of people i guess, i carry this around alone except for IC, and partly because so many of the moments are really painful, as everyone here knows.
> 
> here's where i am this morning: afraid of being hurt again. this is keeping me very cautious about committing to going forward. i know that if i am going to give R a real chance, an _authentic_ real try, i will have to accept that i will get no up-front guarantees of success or safety. a leap of faith will be required.
> 
> i want to do everything i can to ascertain how committed and remorseful WH is, and how willing/able he is to address his underlying issues as part of this process -- but even so, a leap of faith will eventually be required.
> 
> i was talking with a friend of mine who is dealing with a different kind of betrayal but a similar leap of faith. "Yes," she said, "it might not work, and if it doesn't, we'll get a divorce. if that happens, i'll deal with it -- i'm not that fragile."
> 
> i'm pretty hardy in many ways, or at least i used to be. but now, emotionally? yes, i'm that fragile. i don't have that feeling of, sure, bring on the storm, i can weather it.


Yes it is a huge leap of faith marg but if you look at the couples here on Empty's thread you'll see that this gamble can pay off.
Lot of support here,it really helps.
Everyone have a good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> thank you
> 
> i have posted a bit on CWI, sometimes responding or asking questions. when i read your words about _sharing moments_, my reaction was tears. partly because, like lots of people i guess, i carry this around alone except for IC, and partly because so many of the moments are really painful, as everyone here knows.
> 
> here's where i am this morning: afraid of being hurt again. this is keeping me very cautious about committing to going forward. i know that if i am going to give R a real chance, an _authentic_ real try, i will have to accept that i will get no up-front guarantees of success or safety. a leap of faith will be required.
> 
> i want to do everything i can to ascertain how committed and remorseful WH is, and how willing/able he is to address his underlying issues as part of this process -- but even so, a leap of faith will eventually be required.
> 
> i was talking with a friend of mine who is dealing with a different kind of betrayal but a similar leap of faith. "Yes," she said, "it might not work, and if it doesn't, we'll get a divorce. if that happens, i'll deal with it -- i'm not that fragile."
> 
> i'm pretty hardy in many ways, or at least i used to be. but now, emotionally? yes, i'm that fragile. i don't have that feeling of, sure, bring on the storm, i can weather it.


_"A true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. *It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk.* It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!"
_

Margrace, I think, in your situation, the key is what is in the bolded part above. Do you have enough belief/hope/faith in your husband that it's worth the risk? It isn't something that you can possibly "know" the answer to with absolute certainty, because, after all, you already "knew" that he wouldn't be unfaithful to you before, right? You were married, you had made vows to one another.... you were not unfaithful to him and you had no belief that he would be unfaithful to you. If there is any part of you that truly desires to reconcile, then you will have to take a "leap of faith" because there are no guarantees. Does your husband want to reconcile? Is is he openly, willingly and enthusiastically doing the hard work (I hate the phrase heavy-lifting) that is absolutely necessary to make you feel secure so that you can begin to heal and trust him again? Or is he "pushing" you to "get over it" and "move forward?" Is he willingly being completely transparent or do you feel him putting up walls and becoming defensive when you tell him what you need and what your boundaries are? Do you feel confident that he has given you all of the answers that you need so that you can heal? Is he remorseful or is he just pi$$ed that he got caught? These are a few things that any WS should be bending over backwards to do if they are genuinely remorseful, which is absolutely necessary if you are going to take the leap of faith necessary to give him another chance. And, finally, has he asked you for another chance and told you how grateful and fortunate he would feel if you were willing consider it? It is *his job* to do everything in his power to help you heal and move forward. As a former WS, I believe that this is a bare minimum of what he needs to be doing for you and the marriage if he is sincere in wishing to reconcile, for all of the right reasons. One more thing.... is he willingly going to IC and are you both going to MC?

I wish you all of the best and I hope that you will keep coming here and sharing your journey with us.

Take care,
EI


----------



## EI

Morning Calvin and everyone.... Calvin, did you "sleep-in" this morning?


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Morning Calvin and everyone.... Calvin, did you "sleep-in" this morning?


Nope,up at 4:10 as usual.I see you didnt sleep much.
Hows your son and the family doing? Rough one for you all yesterday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

_Is is he openly, willingly and enthusiastically doing the hard work (I hate the phrase heavy-lifting) that is absolutely necessary to make you feel secure so that you can begin to heal and trust him again? Or is he "pushing" you to "get over it" and "move forward?" Is he willingly being completely transparent or do you feel him putting up walls and becoming defensive when you tell him what you need and what your boundaries are? Do you feel confident that he has given you all of the answers that you need so that you can heal? Is he remorseful or is he just pi$$ed that he got caught? These are a few things that any WS should be bending over backwards to do if they are genuinely remorseful, which is absolutely necessary if you are going to take the leap of faith necessary to give him another chance._

well... a little bit of both. he is doing lots of the things that he needs to do, and his remorse feels real.

he is aware of triggers and tries to anticipate them. he willingly talks about them. he has taken responsibility for his cheating and lying, and is finally beginning to connect them to the underlying issues that are his alone. 

on the other hand, he isn't doing it as fully and graciously as some of you are -- you and the other WSs on this thread.

he understands the need for transparency and has not denied me anything that i asked for, but it was at times conceded with annoyance and protests.

sometimes the admissions come freely and with sadness and regret and insight.... other times, he looks stuck, or has his head in his hands, or looks almost blank, or becomes angry.

at still other times, he expresses frustration that he is answering the same questions again and again and is expected to endlessly go on detailing the humiliating things that he has done.

we are 6 months out from d-day, and he is not measuring up to your example  but i have it in my heart to try R if i can _believe_ that he can do better.


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## jh52

Hope everyone is having a good day.

Silence during the day is usually okay --- but worries me a little on this thread.

I know B1 and EI -- you have more going on with yesterday's accident -- just hope all is well.

Silence from Regret is the norm ----!!

Dig -- how are you doing --- hope you and Regret had a wonderful night yesterday after the kids went to sleep !!


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## EI

jh52 said:


> Hope everyone is having a good day.
> 
> Silence during the day is usually okay --- but worries me a little on this thread.
> 
> I know B1 and EI -- you have more going on with yesterday's accident -- just hope all is well.
> 
> Silence from Regret is the norm ----!!
> 
> Dig -- how are you doing --- hope you and Regret had a wonderful night yesterday after the kids went to sleep !!


Everything is okay in the B1/EI household today! B1 had to have a stress test this morning and an Echo.... He has been getting "winded" lately and experiencing some "shortness of breath" when he overexerts himself. Now, _IIIIIIIIIIIII _am not responsible for the fact that he choooooooses to overexert himself..........*frequently*. I swear if the man kills himself trying to.......... ......... I will not accept responsibility for it. But, he and I do want to start going back to the gym together.... we used go until about 3 years ago and then he quit. He thought that it would be best just to get things checked out before he started a rigorous fitness program. I, personally, think he started working out, rigorously, about 4 months ago!  So, anyway, I went with him and we were gone most of the day.

Then, we came home and a couple of hours later we found ourselves..... alone in this big ol' house .... the boys are at work, so he and I took advantage of that opportunity to get a jump start on B1's cardio workout! 

Now, he is visiting his sister. She isn't feeling well, she has fibromyalgia and she wanted him to come by. I thought I'd take advantage of the unusually quiet evening, at home, at try to get some things done that I didn't do earlier today.... cuz I was with my hubby!

How is Mrs. jh? Calvin and CSS..... you guys okay? Dig? Regret? Everyone good?

ttyl
EI


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## calvin

Doing good Empty,tired and wore out.
How you and B1 doing? Hows the fam doing0
?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

Wow, JH.....now I guess I have to say something here! LOL

Dig is off to a couple meetings tonight, I will take a few minutes to say hello and give you all an update.

We've had a couple tough nights this week. Nothing horrible, but Dig was triggered by a few things. What was good was how we were able to talk through them and not let them fester. Sometimes I feel like the mole in whack-a-mole, however. I know it is not his intent, but Dig occasionally beats me over the head with what I did with the OM. It's very difficult to see his pain and anger, and it's very difficult to be on the receiving end of it. Sometimes the truth just hurts! The important thing is how it is dealt with. Acknowledgment of the truth and the wrong-doings. Apologizing profusely with full emotional support.

Funny enough, I was triggered the other night as well. Dig decided to play a little WoW with his former co-pilot. I went to bed alone, and he followed about an hour or so later. Something that happened almost daily before Dday. He did ask if I would mind. In the past I would have said "no, of course not" but not really have meant it as it would piss me off. But this time, I DID mean it. We have spent every possible moment together since Dday. It's OK to have some alone time. And I was OK with it...I didn't want to pull away and I didn't feel rejected. This is progress!

I feel we have turned a corner. We have some personal problems that we have to deal with. In the past, we both would have ignored them, but we are talking and making decisions together. We both acknowledge what is most important....our family! That is our goal, our life, and our legacy. For once in a long, long time we have a common goal (other than R). Family is #1 and we are on the same page in all decisions that need to be made.

I know that I have been very quiet here, lately. But, I am still here and still working hard, and still supporting each and every one of you!


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## EI

margrace said:


> _*Is is he openly, willingly and enthusiastically doing the hard work (I hate the phrase heavy-lifting) that is absolutely necessary to make you feel secure so that you can begin to heal and trust him again? Or is he "pushing" you to "get over it" and "move forward?" Is he willingly being completely transparent or do you feel him putting up walls and becoming defensive when you tell him what you need and what your boundaries are? Do you feel confident that he has given you all of the answers that you need so that you can heal? Is he remorseful or is he just pi$$ed that he got caught? These are a few things that any WS should be bending over backwards to do if they are genuinely remorseful, which is absolutely necessary if you are going to take the leap of faith necessary to give him another chance.*_
> 
> well... a little bit of both. he is doing lots of the things that he needs to do, and his remorse feels real.
> 
> he is aware of triggers and tries to anticipate them. he willingly talks about them. he has taken responsibility for his cheating and lying, and is finally beginning to connect them to the underlying issues that are his alone.
> 
> on the other hand, he isn't doing it as fully and graciously as some of you are -- you and the other WSs on this thread.
> 
> he understands the need for transparency and has not denied me anything that i asked for, but it was at times conceded with annoyance and protests.
> 
> sometimes the admissions come freely and with sadness and regret and insight.... other times, he looks stuck, or has his head in his hands, or looks almost blank, or becomes angry.
> 
> at still other times, he expresses frustration that he is answering the same questions again and again and is expected to endlessly go on detailing the humiliating things that he has done.
> 
> we are 6 months out from d-day, and he is not measuring up to your example  but i have it in my heart to try R if i can _believe_ that he can do better.


Margrace, please understand that this is a process for both the BS and the WS. You see only what we post, but please believe me when I say that "graciously" is not necessarily how B1 or I would describe myself when we're discussing my affair. That makes it sound so lovely and accommodating and it has never been that simple. Every single WS on this thread will openly tell you that we have all had our_ "not so shining moments."_ Some of them were downright ugly. We have all said and done things during this process that we wish we could have a chance to take back and do differently. Please don't hold any one up as an example. I know that I have gotten "stuck," had my "head in my hands," "looked blank," and "became angry," many, many times..... probably all today!!!

There is one particular issue that B1 and I struggle with constantly. It isn't about any of the "details" of my infidelity, it is about certain "wording" that he and I disagree on when describing my thought process regarding my infidelity. It seems so simple, yet it is a huge issue for both of us. We call it the "but" or the "bridge." He doesn't like the "but" and the "bridge" and I've been unable, thus far, to discuss my infidelity without the "but" and the "bridge."

Our MC thinks that we should just _"let the 'but' and the 'bridge' go"..... _"but," I can't and I don't think B1 should either. I don't think that either of us should compromise. Suppressing emotions would not be healthy for either of us and would only breed resentment that might rear it's ugly head later.... so, B1 and I discuss it, often, but I don't want either of us to concede, or to agree to disagree, I want to find a resolution that we can agree on.... because we both count. He and I will continue to discuss this issue, until one day we will find the "words" that feel right for both of us. Then, we will have a "aha" moment! We're worth it.... we've got the rest of of life to find the answers.... together!

It *is* difficult to answer the same questions again and again. Do you want to know why? It's because we WS's know that the answers will hurt you. And, it hurts us to hurt you. But, that is a cross that we have to bear in order to have a successful reconciliation.... because if that is what you need for us to do, then we need to be willing to do that for you!

Take care,
EI


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## calvin

Good post Regret.
Wishing you two the best.I really think all who have been posting here on EI & B1 thread have an excellent shot at success.
We're getting there,starting to feel more comfortable.God,five or six months ago I dont think I could have said that.  :-o
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

:iagree:


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## margrace

_You see only what we post, but please believe me when I say that "graciously" is not necessarily how B1 or I would describe myself when we're discussing my affair. That makes it sound so lovely and accommodating and it has never been that simple. Every single WS on this thread will openly tell you that we have all had our "not so shining moments." Some of them were downright ugly._

super helpful, EI, thank you. it sounds so obvious when i read it -- of course these are only posts, which just represent a tiny slice of what any of us is going through, and of course there is so much more. but somehow i did need to read those words to get some perspective.

_no one_ is doing this without hitches and setbacks -- not just my WH and i. that doesn't mean we aren't going to make it.


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## Affaircare

EI~

I have a suggestion regarding your "but" or "bridge" issue. I do not know for sure what your exact issue is, but let me give an example of what I think may help. 

When a person says "I think XYX and feel XYZ ....BUT... I did ABC" what that bridging word ("but") means is "Negate what I said in the first part of the sentence, and here's my excuse for doing exactly what I told you I would not do." "But" and other words like it, such as "yet" and "nonetheless" are the kind of word that negate the first phrase and then proceed to a rationalization. Here's an example of what I mean:

"I am not the kind of person who would ever be unfaithful, *but *the other person just SEDUCED me!" 

Here's another: 

"I was an honest, loyal, moral person before the affair, *but *when I didn't get attention from you and got attention from OP, I fell for it."

See how the underlined part is sort of negated by the blue part? And I'm not saying that the OP didn't seduce the speaker, or the BS did pay attention!!

BUT... 

...using a "but statement" does not focus on your own self, your own issues, your own thoughts or feelings, your own actions, your own problems, or the reality that is sort of being denied.
I'm just saying that: #1 the second phrase negates the first phrase, and #2 the second phrase sort of looks at the actions, motives, etc. of someone else! 

Thus as a general rule, it is better to think ahead if you can, see if you can say the statement in a way that does not use the "negating-but statement" or that uses the word as a connection closer to "AND" rather than the negating way. Also keep all statements ABOUT YOU and not about any other human being, including your spouse!

"I am not the kind of person who would ever be unfaithful, *but *the other person just SEDUCED me!" becomes "I sure thought I was not the kind of person who would ever be unfaithful, *but *it turns out I am!" 

"I was an honest, loyal, moral person before the affair, *but *when I didn't get attention from you and got attention from OP, I fell for it." becomes "I was an honest, loyal, moral person before the affair, *but *now I know that I have an extreme weakness when I don't have my need for attention met, and I am thinking about how to protect myself and our marriage."

See how we are still using the word "but" and yet it's not negating. It's more like "and" like a connector. In addition, the focus is on YOU and your issue. Make sense? Hope that helps!


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## EI

Affaircare said:


> EI~
> 
> I have a suggestion regarding your "but" or "bridge" issue. I do not know for sure what your exact issue is, but let me give an example of what I think may help.
> 
> 
> BUT...
> 
> ...using a "but statement" does not focus on your own self, your own issues, your own thoughts or feelings, your own actions, your own problems, or the reality that is sort of being denied.
> I'm just saying that: #1 the second phrase negates the first phrase, and #2 the second phrase sort of looks at the actions, motives, etc. of someone else!
> 
> Thus as a general rule, it is better to think ahead if you can, see if you can say the statement in a way that does not use the "negating-but statement" or that uses the word as a connection closer to "AND" rather than the negating way. Also keep all statements ABOUT YOU and not about any other human being, including your spouse!
> 
> "I am not the kind of person who would ever be unfaithful, *but *the other person just SEDUCED me!" becomes "I sure thought I was not the kind of person who would ever be unfaithful, *but *it turns out I am!"
> 
> "I was an honest, loyal, moral person before the affair, *but *when I didn't get attention from you and got attention from OP, I fell for it." becomes "I was an honest, loyal, moral person before the affair, *but *now I know that I have an extreme weakness when I don't have my need for attention met, and I am thinking about how to protect myself and our marriage."
> 
> See how we are still using the word "but" and yet it's not negating. It's more like "and" like a connector. In addition, the focus is on YOU and your issue. Make sense? Hope that helps!


Affaircare,

Every single post you make is ALWAYS helpful for me and countless others, I'm sure. I am trying to use your example to "wrap my 'wording' issue around it." It still doesn't quite fit because my "but" or my "bridge" is not used to negate my initial statement. I own my original statement 100%. The statement can stand alone and does not require a "but" to complete it. In my example the "but" serves as more of an "and" or "in addition to" kind of like a "bridge" whereas the second sentence is used to bolster my statement or back it up, rather than to negate it.

I do understand your point and I am working very hard to "find" the correct/accurate response. It is extremely important for me to give B1 what he needs to heal so that we can move forward. But, it is also important for me to do so without compromising or invalidating my own feelings. B1 and I are not taking the Expressway on our Reconciliation Journey.... we are taking the back roads and we are going to do this with patience, honesty, commitment and love. This is not about one of us being "right," and the other being "wrong," it is about both of us having our feelings and beliefs validated. I am as concerned about his emotional well-being as I am my own and he is as concerned about my emotional well-being as he is his own.

Thank you for giving me some food for thought. Is your Dear Hubby doing any better today? How are you holding up? Please, please, please try to take just a little time each day to rest, meditate, pray, read, relax, something, anything. The role of a caregiver is exhausting to say the least. We are keeping you in our prayers.

Take care,
EI


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## EI

margrace said:


> _You see only what we post, but please believe me when I say that "graciously" is not necessarily how B1 or I would describe myself when we're discussing my affair. That makes it sound so lovely and accommodating and it has never been that simple. Every single WS on this thread will openly tell you that we have all had our "not so shining moments." Some of them were downright ugly._
> 
> super helpful, EI, thank you. it sounds so obvious when i read it -- of course these are only posts, which just represent a tiny slice of what any of us is going through, and of course there is so much more. but somehow i did need to read those words to get some perspective.
> 
> *no one is doing this without hitches and setbacks -- not just my WH and i. that doesn't mean we aren't going to make it.*


Exactly, margrace! That is why B1 and I have found it helpful to post our journey on this thread. Sometimes, it is so much easier to "see" something more clearly when you actually "see" it in black and white. It's has also been helpful to have others help us to read between the lines... sometimes, another poster can actually read between the lines of our own comments better than we can ourselves. 

For example, just read Affaircare's post to me. She was able to dissect my comments without even knowing the exact details and make a fairly accurate assumption that while I am making a statement to B1 that he and I both agree on, I am, then, attempting to rationalize my statement to justify my actions. B1 needs to hear me make the statement.... and hold the rationalizations. It is something that I still struggle with 4 months after D-Day. Reconciliation is not an exact science. But, in order to have a true reconciliation, in the long-run, rather than to have a rug-sweeping false reconciliation, that will surely fall apart under real-life stress, it is imperative that both parties in the relationship feel heard, understood and validated. I don't have the answer, yet, but I will find it.

There will always be hitches and setbacks... but all marriages have hitches and setbacks.... it doesn't mean that we aren't going to make it.

I hope that my ramblings are making some sense.


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## Affaircare

Empty Inside said:


> Affaircare,
> 
> ... (snip)...
> 
> I do understand your point and I am working very hard to "find" the correct/accurate response. It is extremely important for me to give B1 what he needs to heal so that we can move forward. But, it is also important for me to do so without compromising or invalidating my own feelings. ...(snip)... This is not about one of us being "right," and the other being "wrong," it is about both of us having our feelings and beliefs validated. I am as concerned about his emotional well-being as I am my own and he is as concerned about my emotional well-being as he is his own.


If you want, please feel free to PM me a few more clues without giving away specifics, and maybe we (you and I) can bounce a few ideas back and forth to come up with that kind of wording that you are searching for. Hey I'm game to try a few suggestions if you are! 



> Thank you for giving me some food for thought. Is your Dear Hubby doing any better today? How are you holding up? Please, please, please try to take just a little time each day to rest, meditate, pray, read, relax, something, anything. The role of a caregiver is exhausting to say the least. We are keeping you in our prayers.


UGH! Most of the time I feel like I'm treading water just barely keeping my head above water and avoiding drowning. It's hard to pinpoint how Dear Hubby is today. He still has trouble breathing and walking just a few feet completely takes all his breath away. Medications seem to be keeping his blood pressure down, but he had a continual cough and lowgrade fever but no one can pinpoint an infection or anything anywhere. The truth is, he's only awake and coherent a few hours a day, and during those hours he's often pretty cranky because he's on steroids to try to help his lungs. So he's not doing well, but we are in some routines that sort of ... halfway work. 

On the silver-lining side, we did FINALLY find him a medical office he likes, who will take us, and we had 80 billion papers and applications, etc. to fill out for that, but we got an appointment! YAY! And he is no longer taking that medication that was like poisonous to him. YAY! And we have a good referral for a Social Security Disability attorney. YAY! And our daily, basic needs are met AND our bills are paid. YAY and YAY!! 

Finally, regarding me... I feel tired. I don't sleep well at night because he chokes, and I have to work during the day and care for him and do every household chore alone. I am thinking of asking the pastor for a chat, and I just MAY run away to the coast when you least expect it :rofl: One thing that really does help is bible verses like this one:


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## jh52

AC -- you are doing the best you can.

Can someone or a group of people from your church (you said you were going to speak to your pastor) come in and help you out with watching your husband, cleaning and maybe even cooking.

Please don't be shy in asking your relatives, friends, neighbors and church members for help.

No one can do it alone.

Take care -- and will continue to pray for you both.


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## jh52

" B1 and I are not taking the Expressway on our Reconciliation Journey.... we are taking the back roads and we are going to do this with patience, honesty, commitment and love. This is not about one of us being "right," and the other being "wrong," it is about both of us having our feelings and beliefs validated. I am as concerned about his emotional well-being as I am my own and he is as concerned about my emotional well-being as he is his own."

Sometimes this is the best route to get to your ultimate destination. 

Praying for you both.


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## jh52

Regret214 said:


> Wow, JH.....now I guess I have to say something here! LOL
> 
> Dig is off to a couple meetings tonight, I will take a few minutes to say hello and give you all an update.
> 
> We've had a couple tough nights this week. Nothing horrible, but Dig was triggered by a few things. What was good was how we were able to talk through them and not let them fester. Sometimes I feel like the mole in whack-a-mole, however. I know it is not his intent, but Dig occasionally beats me over the head with what I did with the OM. It's very difficult to see his pain and anger, and it's very difficult to be on the receiving end of it. Sometimes the truth just hurts! The important thing is how it is dealt with. Acknowledgment of the truth and the wrong-doings. Apologizing profusely with full emotional support.
> 
> Funny enough, I was triggered the other night as well. Dig decided to play a little WoW with his former co-pilot. I went to bed alone, and he followed about an hour or so later. Something that happened almost daily before Dday. He did ask if I would mind. In the past I would have said "no, of course not" but not really have meant it as it would piss me off. But this time, I DID mean it. We have spent every possible moment together since Dday. It's OK to have some alone time. And I was OK with it...I didn't want to pull away and I didn't feel rejected. This is progress!
> 
> I feel we have turned a corner. We have some personal problems that we have to deal with. In the past, we both would have ignored them, but we are talking and making decisions together. We both acknowledge what is most important....our family! That is our goal, our life, and our legacy. For once in a long, long time we have a common goal (other than R). Family is #1 and we are on the same page in all decisions that need to be made.
> 
> I know that I have been very quiet here, lately. But, I am still here and still working hard, and still supporting each and every one of you!


Hi Regret -- thanks for the update. Hopefully your road of progress to R will continue -- slow baby steps -- hour by hour, day by day.

Take care of Dig and your family !!!


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## calvin

Morning guys,praying for you and hubby AC.
Empty,I like that " we are taking the back roads not the expressway" comment.So true,R cant be rushed. Sometimes it feels like we are off-roading in R 
Have a good day guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HossinMA

Empty Inside said:


> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> P.S. I love you! <3


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


Truer words have uet to be spoken on this subject. 


Thank You.


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## margrace

affaircare, you and DH will be in my thoughts today.

take care,
margrace


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## B1

EI is so right, though we post a lot of what's going on in our R here, there are things that still happen that are not posted. There are issues that are being tackled that are not mentioned here. Perhaps we should though?

We still have some heated talks, we still get frustrated sometimes. Not near as much, and we can usually come to a resollution fairly quickly. It generally does not ruin our day. Oh, it may ruin an hour or make us mad for that long, but we get through it.

We still have some things to resolve, things to still work on. But then we are still early into this R, not even 4 months yet. 

R does not happen quickly, at least if your doing it right. It will take time, energy, work, commitment, understanding, compassion and love.


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## CantSitStill

Well we are all individuals and our marriages are all different and personal so we all have different issues that we have to work on. It is impossible tto have it all written down here. The important thing is we are here helping eachother and we are all here because we truly want to make our marriages better. The little but habit sounds so minor to me. I am an interupter and that is a horrible habit and hurts our R. Yes I'm working on it but (lol at the but) it is not easy and I still do it without realizing it. Have a happy Friday 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Empty Inside said:


> _"A true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. *It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk.* It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!"
> _
> 
> Therein lies the rub. I'm afraid there will always be a piece of myself that I keep locked away now. One little piece that can't be ripped from me if I ever find myself in that situation ever again. Maybe sometime down the road I will be able to open the gate to it.


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## EI

Empty Inside said:


> _"A true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. *It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk.* It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!"
> _





joe kidd said:


> *Therein lies the rub. I'm afraid there will always be a piece of myself that I keep locked away now. One little piece that can't be ripped from me if I ever find myself in that situation ever again. Maybe sometime down the road I will be able to open the gate to it.*


But, what is that "piece of yourself" doing for you now, joe? I don't have answers, either. Hence one of my other quotes "I don't know the answers....I'm not even sure I know what the questions are." - EI......... in my signature line. Is the piece that you keep locked away truly protecting you from further risk of pain? Or is it preventing you from being able to love Pidge, wholly and completely, and to be wholly and completely loved by her? I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded part. Is it worth the risk? If you truly wish to have a successful reconciliation, it's possible that by locking a piece of yourself away so that it can't be hurt again, it will actually prevent you from experiencing the full measure of love that's right there waiting for you. The wall that surrounds that part of yourself, creates a barrier between you and Pidge, and could eventually grow so wide that it, in fact, might increase the possibility of you experiencing the pain that you are trying so hard to avoid. Those are just some of my thoughts.... of course, take 'em or leave 'em. God knows, I don't have any real answers or I wouldn't be here posting on this forum.

EI is feeling philosophical these days and is rambling.... again.


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## B1

I just wanted to say that EI has had a very rough day. We had something very personal and bad happen today. We knew it was coming, but still it hurts. She unloaded on me when I got home, not bad, but just unloaded. She needed to.

This stress brought out other stresses, and the stress of the A. She was feeling very down and defeated, a place so many other people on these boards want a WS to live. I for one do NOT. I don't expect my wife to wallow in the mud like some defeated beat up animal. She is still a human, what she did is not the unforgivable sin like others have suggested. EI owns what she did and you know what, I had to own my part in what I did pre-A. No excuses, no blame shifting, EI flat out owns her choices and I flat out own my choices. We made mistakes... who hasn't?

Some get on here and ride a high horse like they have some God given right to proclaim a WS is doomed to hell, doomed to a life of constant making up, kissing a$$. Really, if that's what a BS wants then they have a problem, and being married is it. Now, if you want to work on your marriage and make a true commitment to R, then it takes TWO, NOT one, but two committed people who admit fault and go from there. Usually, not always, but usually it took two for the breakdown of the marriage. That's how it was in our case anyway. I gave EI plenty of reason to do what she did. NOT excuses, but reasons. 

What SO many on TAM do not see are the tears I see, the sometimes self loathing, it's rare because EI is a fighter, but there are times when I see a defeated EI and it's just a sad sight. That's so not her. She is SO strong and so loving and caring and giving by nature. She has beat depression, severe depression and to see her defeated breaks my heart. I want a strong EI, a strong mother, a strong wife and she usually always is that person.

Just because EI chose an A, does NOT mean it defines who she is now. Pre-A I broke wedding vows too, I did NOT love, honor or cherish her. So many harp on breaking the forsaking all others vows, how many BS's will admit they broke some vows too?

We are not defined by our mistakes, if we were then I would be a unloving, dishonorable man for life. That's NOT who I am. No more than EI is a cheater for life. We are TWO people who screwed up bad and we are two people who are now rebuilding a marriage, and doing a fine job at it.

We are a mother and a father 5 times over. We are Christians, We are kind to others, we have helped numerous people in our lifetime, we cared for sick parents, we have done a lot of good in our lifetime. We have made mistakes, we have screwed up..who hasn't. We have happy times, sad times, we argue, we laugh, we joke, we live life like everyone else. Most people outside of this TAM world do not know a thing about what's going on in our lives. No more than others know what's going on in yours. What you know, is ONLY what we put here. You have no clue as to what our lives are like, no clue to our other struggles, no clue to our world outside of TAM. 

EI is an amazing woman. She has dealt with 3 sets of lawyers today for various reasons. She is the oil that keeps this home running. She fights for us every day, fights attorneys, insurance companies and fights for our kids when they are wronged by someone. And believe me, if you're up against her, you have a fight on your hands, one you probably won't win. 

She was exhausted when I got home, she looked beat up, she was. But she handled it all, got things accomplished and for that I am so grateful. We have some serious battles coming up, some very stressful things to handle and EI will be handling it all since I am at work. NO one knows what goes on inside this house, inside our minds except us. So before you judge, look at yourself, as the scripture goes: "let he who has NO sin cast the first stone.."


----------



## calvin

Saying a prayer for you both.
Life throws us a lot of curveballs sometimes and its not easy.
Every now and then we knock it out of the park bro.
Hang tight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes she is a good woman, people do make wrong choices, what matters is that you are both working on bettering yourselves. It is not too late to make your marriage stronger. As long as you keep having these talks and are working together you will get through this. I do not like the mentality that some people have about WS' either. I have seen people say cruel things like that they are soiled in Gods eyes..that's harsh. She needs to take a breath and concentrate on her changes and not beating herself up. I beat myself up too..thought of suicide once..dumb idea and does not help. It will get better. Just keep up on working together on this. I agree, a WS should not be beaten up daily by the BS because that is no marriage worth staying in.. no reason to be miserable like that. I'll be praying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

So sorry EI & B1 thing went so bad now. EI, lean on B1, he's really there for you, it's obvious. Love heals.
Sending extra dose of positive vibes your way.


----------



## EI

We're okay. It's B1 and me against the world, again! It was always that way before. It stopped being that way for a little while... but, I have my partner, my best friend, my children's father, my husband, and my lover back.... better than ever before. He'll be strong for me and I'll be strong for him. The world can sling all of the arrows it wants to.... We won't be defeated... We will never be defeated.


----------



## Vanguard

betrayed1 said:


> EI is so right, though we post a lot of what's going on in our R here, there are things that still happen that are not posted. There are issues that are being tackled that are not mentioned here. Perhaps we should though?
> 
> We still have some heated talks, we still get frustrated sometimes. Not near as much, and we can usually come to a resollution fairly quickly. It generally does not ruin our day. Oh, it may ruin an hour or make us mad for that long, but we get through it.
> 
> We still have some things to resolve, things to still work on. But then we are still early into this R, not even 4 months yet.
> 
> R does not happen quickly, at least if your doing it right. It will take time, energy, work, commitment, understanding, compassion and love.


It is absolutely true that the right way is more difficult. I am very impressed with the progress you guys have made. Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. You guys seem to have mastered that.


----------



## EI

One more thing..... always one more thing with me  The support, encouragement and inspiration of our friends, in real life and on TAM, has been invaluable to us. Those of you who have been here for B1 and myself, you know who you are and we thank you from the bottom of our hearts. The older I get, the more I have come to realize that the old adage "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me," does not hold true. Words spoken in encouragement and praise, for a job well done, or even an honest attempt to do a job well, can lift us up and inspire us to continue to reach higher to achieve new heights of success. Words spoken with cruel intentions that serve no useful purpose other than to demean, belittle and oppress can, if you allow them to, leave you feeling defeated, broken and hopeless. 

After being on the receiving end of a passive-aggressive and prolonged verbal assault by someone on TAM who has had no experience with a successful reconciliation, and in fact has two failed marriages/reconciliation attempts behind him, I wonder exactly what he believes he has to offer anyone in the way of a positive contribution with regards to a successful reconciliation. If you are not a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem.

Finally, as I posted on a newer thread on TAM today, where the WS is currently on the receiving end of a verbal assault, *"We are adults and we can use this forum for good or use it to tear others down. The way you choose to use it speaks of your character, only,.... not the one whose character you are scrutinizing."* ~ EI

Take care,
EI


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## warlock07

Use the "Ignore" feature EI


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## CantSitStill

I think you may be taking peoples comments on here too personal. Perhaps maybe a break from this place would help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frank29

H i once asked a woman why she cheated she said the guy treated me nice plenty of nice words the odd small gift and i was flattered i put it down to summer madness do i regret it every day i draw breath i hate my self for what i did and the hurt and the pain i caused my H was terrible but we pulled through but i still awake every day with a deep sense of regret i cannot change what i did i can only live with it and thank god that i had the H i have with out him i dont know where i would be now So to all those who point fingers at the wayward and put them down think there but the grace of god go i So Bt & Ei ignore all bad comments and put downs and live your life with each other and more importantly look after each other because with out each others love life becomes crxp you will get through this may your god go with you poem FootSteps in the sand


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## margrace

thinking of you, EI. you and B1 are important to so many of us out here in the cloud 

and B1, you are speaking for me as well, although you say it so much better and with such feeling. i also failed my WH and myself pre-A. i also broke my vows to honor and cherish pre-A. i was not a healthy, functioning partner in my marriage at that time.

i am trying to answer questions in myself about what it will take for WH and i to really commit to R, and whether i can ever really trust again. but for me, those questions are clearly separate from carved-in-stone value judgments about any of us as human beings or as marriage partners. 

the fact is that i'm learning a lot about love from *you*, EI. i'm pretty sure that i wouldn't have it in me to courageously stand up out of the ashes the way that you have, with all the openness and honesty and generosity that you have shown. 

sending warm wishes to you both right now.


----------



## B1

Thank you all for the support and encouragement. Your words mean so much to us and especially to EI. She is ALIVE this morning, if you know what I mean, she is refreshed so to speak. I just hated seeing her so beat up and down yesterday. 

Yesterday was tough, then EI gets on TAM and posts some, reads some and gets motivated, then reads some other posts and she gets down. I really wish she wouldn't let posts get her down.
She is stronger than that.

She has literally hundreds of PM's of support, and others just asking for advice or help. She has to delete PM's almost daily because her inbox gets full. The PM's are always 100% supportive in nature or asking for advice\help. That, to me, speaks volumes. 


She is a WS who gets it, who knows her wrong, who is doing everything she can. I triggered recently, I was hurt and angry at the same time, I was spewing some venom, not too bad but it was coming out. EI just sat, there and said..."I'm so sorry, what can I do baby, what can I do to help you right now." I told her she was doing it, she was listening without defending herself, without buts, without reminding me of the reasons, she WAS just listening and truly feeling my pain. This isn't unusual I might add. 90% of the time this is what happens when I trigger. She drops everything and comes to me with open ears and arms.

Now, there is the 10% that we are still dealing with, the defensive her that creeps in sometimes, the one thing we are still working on..but I ONLY say this so others will know it's NOT all sunshine and roses all the time. There are harsh words sometimes, some minor arguing, some frustration...but we are evolving in this R, it's a process as we all know, it's NOT a quick fix. Funny, we were in a heating battle over words last night, and in the middle of it, EI said..I love you B1 and I said I love you EI..and we went back at it  

We are evolving together at about the same speed. And.....we are still early into R. We have a lot of growing and evolving to do still and I for one can't wait to see what the future holds for us!


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## jh52

B1 -- say hey to EI for me.

EI and you are living your life's the way you and her want, and most important, need now. Don't let anyone put you or EI down.

You have both decided to work on a new marriage -- and some of the so call experts on TAM who seem to know better and know all the answers should write a book so that no one would ever make a mistake and follow their points 1 through 100 -- as to never make a mistake or on how to reconcile.

OH -- WAIT -- there is no book with points 1 through 100. 

Each couple who is facing and going through what you and EI are going through is really writing their own book, their own story and making their own 1 through 100 list. If people would realize this – then maybe support in their own relationships would not have been so hard and damaging to them.

There are some people on TAM who tried reconciling – but for whatever reason, it failed. But at least they can look themselves in the mirror and say I gave it everything I had. But those same people should have learned from their failed reconciliation – and share their experiences what was working and what wasn’t in their attempt – and be supportive -- instead of knowing better and being critical.

Some people, would rather point out what they perceived is going on -- but in your case -- only you and EI know 100% what is going on, hour by hour, day by day. 

So how anyone can perceive how things should be done and are being done in another relationship is beyond me. These people tend to always look at the glass as half empty -- while I look at the glass as half full.

Hope you two have a great Saturday – and a great family day tomorrow!!


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## Regret214

For the waywards in reconciliation.....sometimes the days just suck!

It's Been a Long Day

It's been a long day
And all I've got to say is make it strong
It's been a long day
And all I've got to say is I've been wrong

So take a leave of absence
Tell me you'll be gone
I don't want to see your face

It's been a long day
And I just wanna hide away

It's been a long week
And all the lines come down heavy on me
Its been a long week
I'm finally feeling like it okay to break

Into a thousand pieces
No one can replace
Only I can find my way

It's been a long day
And I just wanna hide away

Its been a long year
And everyone around me's disappeared
It's been a long year
And all this mess around me is finally clear

So can I have a moment
Just to say hello?
Can you let your anger go?

It's been a long year
And I'm finally ready to be here


----------



## jh52

Regret214 said:


> For the waywards in reconciliation.....sometimes the days just suck!
> 
> It's Been a Long Day
> 
> It's been a long day
> And all I've got to say is make it strong
> It's been a long day
> And all I've got to say is I've been wrong
> 
> So take a leave of absence
> Tell me you'll be gone
> I don't want to see your face
> 
> It's been a long day
> And I just wanna hide away
> 
> It's been a long week
> And all the lines come down heavy on me
> Its been a long week
> I'm finally feeling like it okay to break
> 
> Into a thousand pieces
> No one can replace
> Only I can find my way
> 
> It's been a long day
> And I just wanna hide away
> 
> Its been a long year
> And everyone around me's disappeared
> It's been a long year
> And all this mess around me is finally clear
> 
> So can I have a moment
> Just to say hello?
> Can you let your anger go?
> 
> It's been a long year
> And I'm finally ready to be here


Hey Regret -- you and Dig okay ??


----------



## Regret214

jh52 said:


> Hey Regret -- you and Dig okay ??


Yeah, I'm just having a tough day myself. It's my son's 10th birthday and I feel like I have neglected half his life with my self indulgent attitude.


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## jh52

Regret214 said:


> Yeah, I'm just having a tough day myself. It's my son's 10th birthday and I feel like I have neglected half his life with my self indulgent attitude.


"Yesterday's the past, tomorrow's the future, but today is a gift. That's why it's called the present.”

You can't change anything from your past -- that includes yesterday -- but you can make his 10th birthday today the best day a 10 year old ever deserved ---

You can become a better woman, wife and mother starting today -- and every day.

You made a horrible mistake -- you are learning from that mistake and Dig and you have chosen to move into a new marriage -- focus on the road ahead -- and try not to look back in that rear view mirror, because that is once again, in the past.

You will be okay Regret -- you have to trust yourself on that.

Hour by hour -- day by day.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> B1 -- say hey to EI for me.
> 
> EI and you are living your life's the way you and her want, and most important, need now. Don't let anyone put you or EI down.
> 
> You have both decided to work on a new marriage -- and some of the so call experts on TAM who seem to know better and know all the answers should write a book so that no one would ever make a mistake and follow their points 1 through 100 -- as to never make a mistake or on how to reconcile.
> 
> OH -- WAIT -- there is no book with points 1 through 100.
> 
> Each couple who is facing and going through what you and EI are going through is really writing their own book, their own story and making their own 1 through 100 list. If people would realize this – then maybe support in their own relationships would not have been so hard and damaging to them.
> 
> There are some people on TAM who tried reconciling – but for whatever reason, it failed. But at least they can look themselves in the mirror and say I gave it everything I had. But those same people should have learned from their failed reconciliation – and share their experiences what was working and what wasn’t in their attempt – and be supportive -- instead of knowing better and being critical.
> 
> Some people, would rather point out what they perceived is going on -- but in your case -- only you and EI know 100% what is going on, hour by hour, day by day.
> 
> So how anyone can perceive how things should be done and are being done in another relationship is beyond me. These people tend to always look at the glass as half empty -- while I look at the glass as half full.
> 
> Hope you two have a great Saturday – and a great family day tomorrow!!


_"Some people, would rather point out what they perceived is going on -- but in your case -- only you and EI know 100% what is going on, hour by hour, day by day. "_

So true JH...could not have said it better myself.

We just finished talking for a couple hours. With tears, with laughter, with all seriousness and with some resolution. TAMers just don't see this part of our lives. Many get stuck on what happened in their R and project that on to us and others. This is just so unfair and wrong. 


We have a zoo trip planned with our grandson this afternoon and a big family day tomorrow. We WILL have a great weekend.


----------



## Acabado

margrace said:


> thinking of you, EI. you and B1 are important to so many of us out here............


x1000

B1, what a lion!! I just want to jump through the screen and give you the stronger manly hug I can. If you keep defending you wife so fiercely there's nothing can break you guys. There's no need to explain you reasons, everyone with eyes and a heart realize the worderful people under those screen names as we can see you thrive every day. 
Hold her tight till she realizes another's words has no power over her. I really don't know what/who exaclty got under her skin, have no interest, but I can freely say f0ck youself and stay away.

B1&EI in my thoughts today again.


----------



## B1

Regret214 said:


> Yeah, I'm just having a tough day myself. It's my son's 10th birthday and I feel like I have neglected half his life with my self indulgent attitude.


Regret, hang in there, so sorry your having a tough day. We are their with you, praying for you and wishing you a better day


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## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> Regret, hang in there, so sorry your having a tough day. We are their with you, praying for you and wishing you a better day


yes, with you in spirit today, regret...


----------



## EI

I thought I'd take a little TAM break..... We're at the zoo trick or treating with our daughter, s-i-l and grandson. Couldn't resist checking in here, though. Thanks for all the love guys.... I needed it. I'm feeling so much better and enjoying this beautiful day with the people I love most in the world! I'll properly thank each of you later!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> I thought I'd take a little TAM break..... We're at the zoo trick or treating with our daughter, s-i-l and grandson. Couldn't resist checking in here, though. Thanks for all the love guys.... I needed it. I'm feeling so much better and enjoying this beautiful day with the people I love most in the world! I'll properly thank each of you later!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


TAM addiction


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> TAM addiction


ya think 
at the zoo she started shaking and twitching like crazy...until she got on TAM and posted. It was scary to see her suffering such withdraw 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> ya think
> at the zoo she started shaking and twitching like crazy...until she got on TAM and posted. It was scary to see her suffering such withdraw
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


B1 thinks he's funny! 

I'm going to cuddle with him for a while and I will post more tomorrow evening. I have been so blessed to have you guys to lift my spirits when I'm down. I don't think you have any idea how much your support means to me. Thank you all so much for your kind words and encouragement. I, honestly, don't think that B1 and I would have come this far without you! <3


----------



## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> B1 thinks he's funny!
> 
> I'm going to cuddle with him for a while and I will post more tomorrow evening. I have been so blessed to have you guys to lift my spirits when I'm down. I don't think you have any idea how much your support means to me. Thank you all so much for your kind words and encouragement. I, honestly, don't think that B1 and I would have come this far without you! <3


I think he is funnier than you though 


:FIREdevil::FIREdevil:


:bringiton:


----------



## B1

Acabado said:


> x1000
> 
> B1, what a lion!! I just want to jump through the screen and give you the stronger manly hug I can. If you keep defending you wife so fiercely there's nothing can break you guys. There's no need to explain you reasons, everyone with eyes and a heart realize the worderful people under those screen names as we can see you thrive every day.
> Hold her tight till she realizes another's words has no power over her. I really don't know what/who exaclty got under her skin, have no interest, but I can freely say f0ck youself and stay away.
> 
> B1&EI in my thoughts today again.


Thank you for the manly hug Acabado  I will certainly take it.
I really don't have a lot of male friend in my life to share this with. Just my counselor and a co-worker who doesn't really get it, my dad who I just don't feel overly comfortable with either talking about this. So, the males on TAM are really it for me.

I am reading books though, No more Mr. nice guy is the one I am on now. It talks about male friends and the importance of them. But you just can't snap your hands and get them. 

Thanks again for your uplifting support, and the virtual hug!


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> I think he is funnier than you though
> 
> 
> :FIREdevil::FIREdevil:
> 
> 
> :bringiton:[/QUOTE
> 
> Not even close, Warlock, not even close!


----------



## EI

Empty Inside said:


> Affaircare,
> 
> I do understand your point and I am working very hard to "find" the correct/accurate response. It is extremely important for me to give B1 what he needs to heal so that we can move forward. But, it is also important for me to do so without compromising or invalidating my own feelings.
> EI





Affaircare said:


> If you want, please feel free to PM me a few more clues without giving away specifics, and maybe we (you and I) can bounce a few ideas back and forth to come up with that kind of wording that you are searching for. Hey I'm game to try a few suggestions if you are!


AC,

Thank you so much for your generous offer. I had already planned to "pm" you about this, even before you suggested it. I just didn't want to burden you with it right now while you are so busy taking care of DH.... along with everything else you have on your plate.

I will pm you about it sometime this week, but please do not be in any hurry to respond! I understand that taking care of DH, and yourself, are your priorities right now, as they should be! <3


----------



## calvin

Hope you both have a good day today,a good tomorrow,month,year, a good life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> *thinking of you, EI. you and B1 are important to so many of us out here in the cloud *
> 
> *and B1, you are speaking for me as well, although you say it so much better and with such feeling. i also failed my WH and myself pre-A. i also broke my vows to honor and cherish pre-A. i was not a healthy, functioning partner in my marriage at that time.
> *
> 
> the fact is that i'm learning a lot about love from *you*, EI. i'm pretty sure that i wouldn't have it in me to courageously stand up out of the ashes the way that you have, with all the openness and honesty and generosity that you have shown.
> 
> sending warm wishes to you both right now.


margrace,

You could not have spoken kinder words! Thank you so much. In all honesty, for a BS to offer such generous words of affirmation to a WS speaks more about your forgiving nature than anything it could say about me. But, it does, in fact, put a smile on my face and happiness in my heart and for that I thank you. 

What would be the chances of you bringing your husband to TAM and sharing your journey here together? It may not be for everyone. Some *TAM*_ers_ are against it. I posted here first and did not tell B1. He was "researching" the same subject that I initially posted about, "How much Detail," and lo and behold he found my original thread within 24 hours..... (that's his story and he's sticking to it!) I'm thinking..... key logger!  Our first couple of weeks of posting here, together, did not resemble anything like what you're reading now. It was pretty intense..... I was not a TAM favorite.... to say the least. But, save for a few *TAM*_ers_ who project their bitterness onto others, the feedback, even the harshest and most critical has proven to be invaluable to us. As I came around, and began to see things in the light of day (not so clouded by the "fog") the *TAM*_ers_ finally laid down their torches and began to help guide, encourage, and inspire both of us to work on ourselves and one another.

Give it some thought. And, please continue to share your journey with us!

Take care,
EI


----------



## EI

frank29, Acabado, WhiteMousse, Calvin, CSS, warlock, jh52, margrace, Regret, I hope I haven't forgotten anyone..... I thank all of you for all of the kind words, prayers and encouragement during those rough couple of days. Regret, the song was beautiful.... I understand completely how you feel..... For you guys, that help build B1 up when he is feeling unsure and his confidence is shaky... thank you. B1 is my rock, my protector, my everything and when you encourage him, he and I both reap the rewards.....

Well, we are heading to Huber's Restaurant, Orchard and Winery, today, in Indiana, to celebrate B1's mom's birthday! She's the best m-i-l ever. I'll have to tell you about her later. She is not your average m-i-l..... that's for sure! 

As usual, I've spent too much time on TAM and am running late................


----------



## CantSitStill

Enjoy your day 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Just checking in.
Hope you are all having a peaceful Sunday.
Had a bit of a meltdown Friday night and H and I exchanged a few choice words. First time I've got angry in ages. I cried for about an hour afterwards. 
Everything got sorted though and I put some of it down to the stress of organising my sons 18th birthday party last night. We had over a 150 kids at a local club. I was exhausted but it was fun. The organising put a lot of stress on me though and I'm not dealing with stressful situations 100% at the moment!
But it all went well and I've had a lovely relaxing day today with H on the sofa just chilling out watching catch up programmes from last week.

Take care all
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

It happens,seven months in and I'm half nuts sometimes.
This sucks,brain is fried half the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> One more thing..... always one more thing with me  The support, encouragement and inspiration of our friends, in real life and on TAM, has been invaluable to us. Those of you who have been here for B1 and myself, you know who you are and we thank you from the bottom of our hearts. The older I get, the more I have come to realize that the old adage "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me," does not hold true. Words spoken in encouragement and praise, for a job well done, or even an honest attempt to do a job well, can lift us up and inspire us to continue to reach higher to achieve new heights of success. Words spoken with cruel intentions that serve no useful purpose other than to demean, belittle and oppress can, if you allow them to, leave you feeling defeated, broken and hopeless.
> 
> After being on the receiving end of a passive-aggressive and prolonged verbal assault by someone on TAM who has had no experience with a successful reconciliation, and in fact has two failed marriages/reconciliation attempts behind him, I wonder exactly what he believes he has to offer anyone in the way of a positive contribution with regards to a successful reconciliation. If you are not a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem.
> 
> Finally, as I posted on a newer thread on TAM today, where the WS is currently on the receiving end of a verbal assault, *"We are adults and we can use this forum for good or use it to tear others down. The way you choose to use it speaks of your character, only,.... not the one whose character you are scrutinizing."* ~ EI
> 
> Take care,
> EI


EI, do you know what "passive-agressive", is? It is conflict-avoidance, it is criticising somebody, without the appearance of doing so. If you want to criticize me , at least have the decency to call me by name. NOw.. re-read your post and tell me who is really being "passive-agressive"? If you do not want to have me come to this thread, then don't refer to me, and I won't.


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## calvin

Morning all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

Empty Inside said:


> In all honesty, for a BS to offer such generous words of affirmation to a WS speaks more about your forgiving nature than anything it could say about me. But, it does, in fact, put a smile on my face and happiness in my heart and for that I thank you.
> 
> What would be the chances of you bringing your husband to TAM and sharing your journey here together? It may not be for everyone.
> EI


i think that posting here together might help us -- but the chances of his doing that right now are slim at best 

EI, i'm so happy if those comments were useful, or helped you get through a rough day. i usually feel pretty lost as i sift through everyone else's posts. i'm glad if i can contribute in some way, and as i mentioned, you and so many others have given so much.

i felt that what i acknowledged was just honest for me. here is how i got to that after following TAM for a few months. i am starting to understand how different BSs, WSs, and marriages (both pre- and post-A) are. (sounds obvious, i know.)

seems like some WSs are selfish and/or narcissistic people and/or had other issues like that. some seem motivated by wanting to have their cake and eat it too. some WSs seem very sorry to have been caught, but doubt exists as to the level of true remorse they feel. 

many BSs sound like, pre-A, they were decent marriage partners who had the usual amount of human failings. Many of them were better than that: they actively cared about the health of their marriages and some were working to be good partners even while their WS was cheating.

like others of you here, my situation doesn't fit these descriptions. my pre-A marriage had become a real desert because i helped make it that way. i was not functioning in the marriage in a healthy way -- and on top of that, i checked out. yes, i was suffering, too, yet i didn't cheat. doesn't that count for something? i said this in another thread: if you put my behavior and his infidelity on the wrongness scales, i agree with everyone else that nothing justifies the A. 

sometimes i stand on that point -- that he was more wrong. most of the time, the larger truth for me, _in my situation_, is that we were two damaged, hurting people who injured our marriage and each other and ourselves. we did it in different ways. i dishonored him and he dishonored me. 

so now what? i'm on this thread because, even after all of that, we still see the things that drew us together and we still love each other. that's a treasure in this world. is it enough to get me through this? i can't say for sure.

you might remember that i asked for people's thoughts about TT before, because that has been the thing that most threatens R and the trust-building process for me. people said that TT pretty much always happens, so i am trying to take it with a grain of salt. 

still, i have to see for myself -- through time and his actions and behavior, _not_ his words -- that the deception has ended. i am going down this road because i think that it has, but i have a ways to go on that one yet. 

i think it will only work if i'm all-in as well, which means owning up to my part in sending the train off the rails.


----------



## CantSitStill

How are you two doing today Em and B1?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Quiet here.How are you guys?


----------



## B1

We are good, just been crazy busy around here. Kids in and out, babysat the grandson today. We literally just now sat down to take a breather, well I did anyway  
EI is still doing laundry from a HUGE load that our son brought home. She should be on here a little later.


----------



## calvin

Busy day for you guys


----------



## oneMOreguy

Badblood said:


> EI, do you know what "passive-agressive", is? It is conflict-avoidance, it is criticising somebody, without the appearance of doing so. If you want to criticize me , at least have the decency to call me by name. NOw.. re-read your post and tell me who is really being "passive-agressive"? If you do not want to have me come to this thread, then don't refer to me, and I won't.


....badblood.......I don't have a dog in this fight, but if you honestly think that your advice is leading to these feelings in her, then maybe it is more effective to just do a 180........not everyone is successful in the way they connect with another in getting their point across, and this may be one of those times, no matter who is right or wrong...just a thought...take care...


----------



## Acabado

Don't follow Dig's steps, don't get yourself banned B1.
Don't fall for it.


----------



## B1

Acabado said:


> Don't follow Dig's steps, don't get yourself banned B1.
> Don't fall for it.


For what...


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> For what...


Nope,I didnt see anything he did to be banned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Wait. I got banned?!!


----------



## EI

oneMOreguy said:


> ....*&#*%^^#.......I don't have a dog in this fight, but if you honestly think that your advice is leading to these feelings in her, then maybe it is more effective to just do a 180........not everyone is successful in the way they connect with another in getting their point across, and this may be one of those times, no matter who is right or wrong...just a thought...take care...





Acabado said:


> Don't follow Dig's steps, don't get yourself banned B1.
> Don't fall for it.





calvin said:


> Nope,I didnt see anything he did to be banned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





betrayed1 said:


> For what...





SomedayDig said:


> Wait. I got banned?!!


*I love you guys,.... every last one of you!  But, I do love B1 the most..... I hope you all understand! *


----------



## EI

daisygirl and margrace, I will respond to both of your posts tomorrow. I like to spend a little more time on serious posts, like yours, and today I just had little bits of time, on TAM, here and there, not enough time to properly respond to yours. Please keep sharing your stories with us.

Take care,
EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

oneMOreguy said:


> ....badblood.......I don't have a dog in this fight, but if you honestly think that your advice is leading to these feelings in her, then maybe it is more effective to just do a 180........not everyone is successful in the way they connect with another in getting their point across, and this may be one of those times, no matter who is right or wrong...just a thought...take care...


AS long as I am not refered to, or confronted, I will happily leave this thread, and best of luck to it.


----------



## daisygirl 41

No worries Ei, we all have busy lives outside of TAM.
It's our 19th anniversary today.
I'm so glad we have made it this far. 
Thanks to all of you for your support
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Morning ALL

Happy 19th Daisy -- and wishing you many many more.


----------



## calvin

Morning guys.Happy anniversary Daisy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Good Morning Everyone,

I have time for a quick good morning and a happy anniversary to you and your hubby, daisygirl. I'll be back a little later this morning to post some responses and to give an update on life in the home of B1 and EI!! <3

Take care,
EI

P.S. My brain was a little slow yesterday (and many other days, too.) Yesterday was CSS's B-Day. She got lots of "Happy Birthday" wishes in her thread but I'd like to say "Happy Belated Birthday" in this thread, too!


----------



## Doc Who

So I have a question for the betrayed in R,

Background: Two years out from Dday, 1.5 years from starting R. We are doing well. She is much more engaged and less self-centered. Better mom, much better wife. I am more authentic. I do not pull punches to keep the peace. I do not accept the princess behavior anymore, which is hard for me, as that is what I did for 19 years. I communicate more effectively and with kindness, instead of letting resentments build and then erupting (and at 6-5, 230, I tended to erupt in a frightening manner...)

So, here is the question. How do you deal with the nagging little voince in your head that says "she got away with it?" I thought I dealt with it through therapy - I made the decision to forgive her. Her remorse was and continues to be real. She confessed to many who in turn supported me, even in R. I know she has paid a serious price realizing she sold her soul for a few fvcks and that is a painful thing to deal with once the soul is reinserted. I thought I had pushed that "fairness" crap out of my mind for good.

Apparently not.

I accept that forgiveness is not a one time thing. That, like love, is a daily commitment; a daily event. I am committed to that. But that little voice just pops up every now and then, not regularly, saying "You took her back. You are giving her all she needs to heal and live in love - and she got away with three OMs. - You are a sucker."

I am working again with IC on this, but when it pops up, I have a helluva time with it. Not as bad as post Dday triggers where I nearly shredded my knuckles on my small bag. But the worst post-R feelings that I have had.

Oh well, any insight would be appreciated.


----------



## SomedayDig

A paradox Doc Who. That is exactly what this is. While I haven't been working on reconciliation nearly as long as you - I'm 7 months out from Dday, I can speak from my experience (relatively small that it is).

Yes...she got away with it. However, did she really? Her confession to the ones who supported your decision to stay together and try to heal, the more engaged and less self-centered wife and better mom. That sounds like someone who truly has worked on righting the wrongs.

She got away with one thing: Having sex.

You taking her back is not part of her getting away with anything. It's the part of you that was able to look above your own ego and see more than the betrayal.

I've done the same, in that respect. The ego, the part of each one of us that gives us our identity was hurt beyond compare with my wife's betrayal. However, the ego can at times be create a "false self". That part that can't get over things because of the pain.

I've done a lot of work to NOT let my ego control my life. It is tough. Yet, when I look past my ego and look at my wife, I can see the woman who I fell in love with and who is remorseful for her horrible decisions.

Maybe ask your IC about that and see if you can get some direction. You are NOT a sucker, man.


----------



## lukkhi

Hi,

Hope you like this article;

Why Forgiveness Doesn


----------



## B1

Find Forgiveness

Forgiveness is considered the highest form of love that we are capable of giving. If this is true it is no wonder that we have such a hard time forgiving someone who has betrayed us and even in forgiving ourselves. To aid us in learning how to forgive it is helpful to understand what forgiveness means and what it’s not. Forgiveness is a voluntary act in which you make a decision to see a situation differently. Forgiveness helps us change the way we think so instead of seeing a situation through the lens of anger, guilt or fear we see it through the eyes of compassion and understanding. Instead of getting stuck in your own emotional baggage you can now see the situation differently with greater wisdom and understanding. That’s forgiveness.

I like to think of forgiveness as the science of the heart, a discipline of discovering all the ways of being that will extend your love to the world and discarding all the ways that do not. It is the accomplishment of mastery over a wound. Forgiveness is a process through which an injured person first fights off, then embraces, then conquers a situation that has nearly destroyed him or her. On a deeper level forgiveness is about changing the way we think which includes embracing our humanity and spiritual nature and the humanity and spiritual nature of all human beings.

Forgiveness is not about pardoning. It is about our inner emotional release. Forgiveness is not condoning. We do not have to accept someone else’s behavior in order to forgive. Forgiveness is not reconciliation. We can forgive someone, but it does not mean we have to reconcile. On a very practical level forgiveness is about lessening your own emotional burdens and healing the pain of your heart. Forgiveness is not about letting someone off the hook. It is about your own inner healing.

It takes a generous spirit to understand that people do not always hurt us because they choose to. Oftentimes, they have no more control over their actions than we, their victims, do. Only from our wisdom and compassion can we recognize that when people harm us, it is their weaknesses that compel them to act. People who attack us act out of fear to protect themselves. Fear drives us into a hard shell. It shuts the door on our capacity to understand, empathize, and love, while allowing distrust and enmity to guard against being touched from the outside world. To compensate for this perception, we often harden ourselves so that others cannot gain access to our inner selves or discover our shortcomings.

Forgiveness is a process that happens over time. Before we can truly forgive, we need to realize that forgiveness is about our inner healing and not necessarily about behavioral change. Until we totally understand that we may needlessly deal with resistance about forgiving someone. We heal by remembering, by brining back into our awareness everything we have kept hidden from ourselves. It takes time to bring these pieces together. This process begins by telling our story and validating our feelings and experiences. Only after time and being in a safe environment can we allow ourselves to feel and express our strong emotions and to explore the issues concerning our pain and circumstances. As we become more aware and accepting of all our emotions as valid messengers about our interaction in the world, we begin our healing. If we are holding onto something, we need to recognize that, despite any other person’s role in creating the situation, we are responsible for what we do with our hurt. Forgiveness is about accepting responsibility for our emotional reactions to our hurt.

What may be harder than forgiving your partner is forgiving yourself. No matter if you are the one who has been hurt or you are the one who has hurt looking within yourself and dealing with the guilt of the past is no easy process. Yet, if we do not do this kind of soul searching and inner work our outer world may be superficial at best. If you have been betrayed you may be blaming yourself too harshly for your partner’s betrayal. You may have contributed to your partner’s dissatisfaction for example by getting buried in your career or in the needs of your children. When you take a look at these issues and take responsibility for them you will be able to let go of your guilt and move on.

If you are the betrayer, you are solely responsible for your deception and need to forgive yourself for the harm you have caused by violating your covenant of trust. You may also need to look at the hurt you have caused your children. By taking responsibility for your actions and making different choices you heal guilt and move forward. Remember that holding on to your guilt is a choice too. Self-forgiveness doesn’t relieve your of responsibility for your words or actions, but it releases you from self-contempt. With self-forgiveness, you bring compassion and understanding of who you are and why you acted the way you did, and reclaim what you most value in yourself.

SOURCE link here


----------



## EI

B1, Honey, while you're at it, on the subject of forgiveness, can you also tell the TAMers how you're not allowed to withhold your body from me because what's yours is mine and what's mine is yours, and all that "good stuff" according to the Bible..... jus' sayin' ..... EI is feeling frisky today!!!! 

I'll be back later for the serious responses, I just couldn't resist! ;-)

BTW..... My msg. box is full..... Can't delete pm's from iPhone. I'll have to delete some older msgs. when I can get on the PC, later. I can't respond to pm's right now. It won't let me "send" anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Doc Who said:


> So I have a question for the betrayed in R,
> 
> Background: Two years out from Dday, 1.5 years from starting R. We are doing well. She is much more engaged and less self-centered. Better mom, much better wife. I am more authentic. I do not pull punches to keep the peace. I do not accept the princess behavior anymore, which is hard for me, as that is what I did for 19 years. I communicate more effectively and with kindness, instead of letting resentments build and then erupting (and at 6-5, 230, I tended to erupt in a frightening manner...)
> 
> So, here is the question. How do you deal with the nagging little voince in your head that says "she got away with it?" I thought I dealt with it through therapy - I made the decision to forgive her. Her remorse was and continues to be real. She confessed to many who in turn supported me, even in R. I know she has paid a serious price realizing she sold her soul for a few fvcks and that is a painful thing to deal with once the soul is reinserted. I thought I had pushed that "fairness" crap out of my mind for good.
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> I accept that forgiveness is not a one time thing. That, like love, is a daily commitment; a daily event. I am committed to that. But that little voice just pops up every now and then, not regularly, saying "You took her back. You are giving her all she needs to heal and live in love - and she got away with three OMs. - You are a sucker."
> 
> I am working again with IC on this, but when it pops up, I have a helluva time with it. Not as bad as post Dday triggers where I nearly shredded my knuckles on my small bag. But the worst post-R feelings that I have had.
> 
> Oh well, any insight would be appreciated.


I am only 4 months out past dday so I'm no where near you but here is my take on this anyway...

To me it sounds a little like resentment creeping in on you. You are still hurting and you resent that. Especially if she is going about her day all happy and you get this flash if "them" and BOOM, resentment time, and you get that nagging feeling she got away with it.

you are 2 years out but I have heard it can take 2-5 years to heal from this. So what you are experiencing is probably very normal.

I have had that happen a few times. When it has happened I quickly remind myself she is happy..and that's a good thing because I have seen the self loathing and its not good or pretty. I don't want her to feel punished or worthless. It's not healthy or good for our R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Just checking in.
> Hope you are all having a peaceful Sunday.
> Had a bit of a meltdown Friday night and H and I exchanged a few choice words. First time I've got angry in ages. I cried for about an hour afterwards.
> Everything got sorted though and I put some of it down to the stress of organising my sons 18th birthday party last night. We had over a 150 kids at a local club. I was exhausted but it was fun. The organising put a lot of stress on me though and I'm not dealing with stressful situations 100% at the moment!
> But it all went well and I've had a lovely relaxing day today with H on the sofa just chilling out watching catch up programmes from last week.
> 
> Take care all
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


daisygirl,

I've probably had 2 or 3 meltdowns in the last several days that didn't have a thing to do with the "A." So, I think that the stress of planning and managing a party for 150 kids is enough to put anyone over the edge, much less someone in the midst of reconciliation.

So, was this a surprise party or did your son know that he was having such a huge 18th birthday party? Whatever the case, what a great mom you are for putting all of that together! I hope that he was happy and that, both, your son and your hubby appreciated all that you had to do to pull off something so spectacular, all while dealing with the stress of reconciliation.

Evenings and Sunday afternoons on the sofa with B1, that's what makes all the rest of everything we go through worthwhile. I love my cuddle time with B1. No matter how hard the day has been, even if he and I have been struggling with the aftermath of the A, at the end of day, I want to be in his arms, wrapped tight.... it's the most blissful place in the world. I guess that's when you know that "home" can be anywhere as long as you are with the one you love. Some days I get a little sad and wistful, wishing that he and I had not wasted all of those years being so sad, so angry, so defeated and so depressed. We, both, tried different things at different times, i.e., therapy, medication, etc., but for some reason we were never able to pull ourselves out of the oppression that kept us down for so long. Only when we realized that we had lost it all, (and we *had* lost it all..... we didn't _come close_ to losing ourselves and our marriage, we totally lost it,) did we realize how much love was still buried underneath all of the hurt and resentment. At the time, I thought that I had tried everything on Earth that I possibly could have, to get B1 to "wake-up" and re-join the land of the living. To this day, I still don't know what more I could have done at the time. But, if I could go back in time, back to February, 2011, I would tell myself.... try harder, try one more day, and another day, and another, and keep trying..... never leave your partner behind because that is what I had vowed to do on June 23, 1984.... to love, honor and cherish, for richer for poorer, for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others, 'til death do us part. That's what I would tell myself.......... I can't change yesterday, or the day before..... but, B1 and I have today, and every tomorrow that God allows us to share, 'til death do us part.

P.S. I love you, B1! I love you so much! <3


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> i think that posting here together might help us -- but the chances of his doing that right now are slim at best
> 
> EI, i'm so happy if those comments were useful, or helped you get through a rough day. i usually feel pretty lost as i sift through everyone else's posts. i'm glad if i can contribute in some way, and as i mentioned, you and so many others have given so much.


Yes, your comments meant a great deal to me and I thank you for them.



margrace said:


> i felt that what i acknowledged was just honest for me. here is how i got to that after following TAM for a few months. i am starting to understand how different BSs, WSs, and marriages (both pre- and post-A) are. (sounds obvious, i know.)
> 
> seems like some WSs are selfish and/or narcissistic people and/or had other issues like that. some seem motivated by wanting to have their cake and eat it too. some WSs seem very sorry to have been caught, but doubt exists as to the level of true remorse they feel.
> 
> many BSs sound like, pre-A, they were decent marriage partners who had the usual amount of human failings. Many of them were better than that: they actively cared about the health of their marriages and some were working to be good partners even while their WS was cheating.


I agree that there are some _similarities _in most BS's and in most WS's, but I strongly reject the notion that there is a script and that they are all the same... not any more than anyone else in life is "all the same."



margrace said:


> like others of you here, my situation doesn't fit these descriptions. my pre-A marriage had become a real desert because i helped make it that way. i was not functioning in the marriage in a healthy way -- and on top of that, i checked out. yes, i was suffering, too, yet i didn't cheat. doesn't that count for something? i said this in another thread: if you put my behavior and his infidelity on the wrongness scales, i agree with everyone else that nothing justifies the A.
> 
> sometimes i stand on that point -- that he was more wrong. most of the time, the larger truth for me, _in my situation_, is that we were two damaged, hurting people who injured our marriage and each other and ourselves. we did it in different ways. i dishonored him and he dishonored me.


I agree with you, 100%. *Nothing* justifies the A, but if you come to the point that you wish to reconcile, you will need to come to terms with the fact that most marriages are more like yours and more like mine, pre-A. Affairs do not, usually, happen in a vacuum. More often than not, both the BS and WS had their own personal issues and contributed to the negative state of the marriage Pre-A. And, when you choose to reconcile you will need to "let go" of who was "more wrong" and who was "more wronged." It will make you hold onto resentment. I don't think that a reconciliation can ever truly be successful when one party has the need to be the bigger "victim." It would be easy, and accurate, for B1 to say that since I committed adultery for 15 months, (there is no arguing that is the ultimate transgression against marriage,) that he holds the moral high ground over me. But, it would also be accurate for me to argue that since he seriously neglected me, emotionally and physically, for nearly 10 years, and that despite my pleas during the 3 years leading up to my affair to work on improving our marriage, he continued to neglect me, even telling me that things would not ever change for the better, that I suffered much longer than he has.... thus claiming myself to be the bigger victim. He and I could spend the rest of our lives, limping along as martyrs, reconciled to a life of misery or we can choose to make both of us come out of this stronger, better and wiser. I do not wish for either of us to be a victim. B1 and I, both, want to heal and move forward. We are both more loving, more compassionate, more understanding, more grateful, more........ just more!



margrace said:


> so now what? i'm on this thread because, even after all of that, we still see the things that drew us together and we still love each other. that's a treasure in this world. is it enough to get me through this? i can't say for sure.
> 
> you might remember that i asked for people's thoughts about TT before, because that has been the thing that most threatens R and the trust-building process for me. people said that TT pretty much always happens, so i am trying to take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> still, i have to see for myself -- through time and his actions and behavior, _not_ his words -- that the deception has ended. i am going down this road because i think that it has, but i have a ways to go on that one yet.
> 
> i think it will only work if i'm all-in as well, which means owning up to my part in sending the train off the rails.


I think that only when you are confident that you have the whole truth will you be able to decide if you are all-in or not. Only you can decide that! I wish you all the best.

Take care,
EI


----------



## joe kidd

Doc Who said:


> So I have a question for the betrayed in R,
> 
> Background: Two years out from Dday, 1.5 years from starting R. We are doing well. She is much more engaged and less self-centered. Better mom, much better wife. I am more authentic. I do not pull punches to keep the peace. I do not accept the princess behavior anymore, which is hard for me, as that is what I did for 19 years. I communicate more effectively and with kindness, instead of letting resentments build and then erupting (and at 6-5, 230, I tended to erupt in a frightening manner...)
> 
> So, here is the question. How do you deal with the nagging little voince in your head that says "she got away with it?" I thought I dealt with it through therapy - I made the decision to forgive her. Her remorse was and continues to be real. She confessed to many who in turn supported me, even in R. I know she has paid a serious price realizing she sold her soul for a few fvcks and that is a painful thing to deal with once the soul is reinserted. I thought I had pushed that "fairness" crap out of my mind for good.
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> I accept that forgiveness is not a one time thing. That, like love, is a daily commitment; a daily event. I am committed to that. But that little voice just pops up every now and then, not regularly, saying "You took her back. You are giving her all she needs to heal and live in love - and she got away with three OMs. - You are a sucker."
> 
> I am working again with IC on this, but when it pops up, I have a helluva time with it. Not as bad as post Dday triggers where I nearly shredded my knuckles on my small bag. But the worst post-R feelings that I have had.
> 
> Oh well, any insight would be appreciated.


Well...I'm 2 yrs in. There are times I feel like a sucker, the dope who didn't have the nuts to leave. 
There are also times I feel that she paid a high price to stay. I made life quite unbearable for her since D-day. Hot and cold, excessive drinking, have called her every name that popped into my head. 
She has shown remorse. If I had picked up on any "deal with it" attitude ...gone baby gone. 
All that and the fact that ....well the fact that I love her.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Well...I'm 2 yrs in. There are times I feel like a sucker, the dope who didn't have the nuts to leave.
> There are also times I feel that she paid a high price to stay. I made life quite unbearable for her since D-day. Hot and cold, excessive drinking, have called her every name that popped into my head.
> She has shown remorse. If I had picked up on any "deal with it" attitude ...gone baby gone.
> All that and the fact that ....well the fact that I love her.


Morning all.
I think it takes nuts to stay Joe.In my eye leaving is the easy way out.
CSS's lawyer told her she didnt have a shot at the house or kids.
I could have had it all,which would have been almost nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Hi TAM Fam

Life gave MRs JH and I another kick last night as a very close and dear friend collapsed while walking out the door at his home.

His wife and a couple of other friends were with him -- thank God -- and called 911.

He is in the IC at the hospital this morning with bleeding on his brain. He is stable and alert -- but obviously something more serious appears to be going on.

I tell you this, so that everyone who reads this stops and thinks about how fragile life can be -- 

Make sure you make today the best day you ever have -- because no one is guaranteed the next breath.

I also posted this on Calvin/CSS's thread -- 

Just want people to realize that no matter what you situation in life may be -- we are all humans and we better make sure we are happy who we are -- because life as we know it -- may change dramatically or even end today.


----------



## margrace

jh52 said:


> Hi TAM Fam
> 
> Life gave MRs JH and I another kick last night as a very close and dear friend collapsed while walking out the door at his home.
> 
> His wife and a couple of other friends were with him -- thank God -- and called 911.
> 
> He is in the IC at the hospital this morning with bleeding on his brain. He is stable and alert -- but obviously something more serious appears to be going on.
> 
> I tell you this, so that everyone who reads this stops and thinks about how fragile life can be --
> 
> Make sure you make today the best day you ever have -- because no one is guaranteed the next breath.
> 
> I also posted this on Calvin/CSS's thread --
> 
> Just want people to realize that no matter what you situation in life may be -- we are all humans and we better make sure we are happy who we are -- because life as we know it -- may change dramatically or even end today.


so very sorry to hear about your friend's health scare. yes, it puts things into perspective, and i hope he continues to improve....


----------



## Doc Who

Dig, B1, Joe et al.

I appreciate the insights. I guess this is just the next phase of the recovery. While I have forgiven her and helped her to forgive herself, I can never bring myself to find anything redeeming in her affairs. I guess when I focus on the acts and not her, I get out of focus and resentful.

I thought I was past that, but perhaps I will never be. She has changed so much for the better. But perhaps I have changed for the worse. Oh well, keep slogging away...


----------



## margrace

R'ing spouses, could i ask you for a favor? could you give me a quick impression of these facts? i trust you to take this in while giving both WH and me the full benefit of the doubt.

do you see something of your story here? or does my story maybe sound like it doesn't have the same potential that yours did?

and i know that in the end, it will be my decision only.

*background*: the dying marriage that i have described earlier. i am at least 50% responsible for killing it. both of us checked out and left it to die rather than summon up the courage to work on it.

*dday, 7 months ago*: i had had a gut feeling about A for months (he had denied anything was up) and i caught him by reading emails.

*1 month later*: appearances of R but i still felt like something was going on. strong suspicion of contact at this time. he denied. i stayed.
*
2 months ago, a weekend in august*: i confronted that i did not believe he had told all. he admitted to one additional contact, the one mentioned above. said that OW had moved away. i stayed.

*3 weeks ago*: i found out that OW had indeed moved away -- but that he had also seen her during that very same weekend in august to say goodbye. i also found out that there had been other encounters besides her. i confronted him on the continuing absence of truth about the situation. he grudgingly admitted to all but the other encounters. "do i have to keep talking about every terrible thing i ever did?" he asked angrily.

context of all this: 

* longstanding conflict avoidance by WH -- would always prefer to withhold/delay bad news, etc. and does not always admit such things to himself
* since august, all appearances of R *without* (obviously) complete, open disclosure and truthfulness
* protests requests for transparency but sometimes concedes in the end
* tells me that he loves me, doesn't want to imagine a future without me. has told me several times that he does not deserve me. (i know, it sounds bizarre, given how he is treating me.)
* feels that all of this is humiliating for him
* believes that all the years of good behavior prior to the cheating should count for more in my eyes than they do

i love him, but i am exhausted and my optimism is wavering. when all this began, i was full of determination to work on my issues and to be the best person and partner that i can be -- i myself did not want to live one more day as the dysfunctional partner that i had become.

i still have that determination. i don't want to quit on him or myself if there is hope -- and i also know that, sadly, people do sometimes have to call it quits.

thank you for reading this. i know it will be up to me to decide when enough is enough. if i have to leave, i will *not* be angry that i didn't do it sooner -- rather, i will be comforted by knowing that i gave it 100% before i walked away.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> R'ing spouses, could i ask you for a favor? could you give me a quick impression of these facts? i trust you to take this in while giving both WH and me the full benefit of the doubt.
> 
> do you see something of your story here? or does my story maybe sound like it doesn't have the same potential that yours did?
> 
> and i know that in the end, it will be my decision only.
> 
> *background*: the dying marriage that i have described earlier. i am at least 50% responsible for killing it. both of us checked out and left it to die rather than summon up the courage to work on it.
> 
> *dday, 7 months ago*: i had had a gut feeling about A for months (he had denied anything was up) and i caught him by reading emails.
> 
> *1 month later*: appearances of R but i still felt like something was going on. strong suspicion of contact at this time. he denied. i stayed.
> *
> 2 months ago, a weekend in august*: i confronted that i did not believe he had told all. he admitted to one additional contact, the one mentioned above. said that OW had moved away. i stayed.
> 
> *3 weeks ago*: i saw old texts that indicated that OW had indeed moved away -- but that he had also seen her during that very same weekend in august to say goodbye. i also saw even older texts that suggested that there had been other briefer encounters before her. i confronted him on the continuing absence of truth about the situation. he grudgingly admitted to all but the earlier encounters. "do i have to keep talking about every terrible thing i ever did?" he asked angrily.
> 
> context of all this:
> 
> * longstanding conflict avoidance by WH -- would always prefer to withhold/delay bad news, etc. and does not always admit such things to himself
> * since august, all appearances of R *without* (obviously) complete, open disclosure and truthfulness
> * i believe in NC since august
> * protests requests for transparency but concedes in the end
> * tells me that he loves me, doesn't want to imagine a future without me. has told me several times that he does not deserve me. (i know, it sounds bizarre, given how he is treating me.)
> * feels that all of this is humiliating for him
> * believes that all the years of good behavior prior to the cheating should count for more in my eyes than they do
> 
> i love him, but i am exhausted and my optimism is wavering. when all this began, i was full of determination to work on my issues and to be the best person and partner that i can be -- i myself did not want to live one more day as the dysfunctional partner that i had become.
> 
> i still have that determination. i don't want to quit on him or myself if there is hope -- and i also know that, sadly, people do sometimes have to call it quits.
> 
> thank you for reading this. i know it will be up to me to decide when enough is enough. if i have to leave, i will not be angry that i didn't do it sooner -- rather, i will be comforted by knowing that i gave it 100% before i walked away.



I'm sorry to say this but it sounds as if he still has feelings for the OW.
And he's still in the so called fog. He has yet to realize just how wrong he was and is.

The "he does not deserve me" statement, yeah, I heard that too, when EI was deep into the A.
He is missing this OW and he, I believe, still cares for you but feels guilty that he cares for her too.

Now, the question is, Does he love you. And can you let this play out. You are basically second right now, until his head clears and you see what he really wants.

He isn't giving you true solid remorse, he's feeling guilty that's it. EI felt guilty plenty of times while in the A, I didn't get remorse until it was broke off and a month passed by.

This is tough margrace, I am so sorry you are going through this. Letting it play out may work out?
I know I held EI plenty of times in the beginning of R when she was upset over her AP and not me. At the time there was nothing else for us to do so I went with it. But EI was very open and we talked constantly, that helped. But, though we were talking, she was missing the AP bad in the first few weeks after Dday. She had made the decision to try, and held on to that, while suffering the loss of her AP, i.e. drug. She didn't break NC but it wasn't easy for her.

In your case, the OW moved away forcing the NC and forcing your husband to go cold turkey from his AP, i.e. drug.
He's in withdraw and a bit bitter, I bet he is down a lot too, having a whoa-is-me attitude.

He is 2 months out from last contact, that should be enough time to at least start breaking free of the fog, if not break completely free from it. I have to wonder if there hasn't been some more contact? -that would keep this problem going, it would keep him in this state he's in. He's getting a hit, by contacting her, now and then but he knows he can't have the OW. Since he does care for you, he's feeling horrible about what he's doing. I hope I am wrong here!

You may just have to start snooping again to verify NC. I am highly suspicious here.
You are going to have to ask him if he still cares for the OW.
He HAS to give you answers to your questions, NO holding back.
You may just have to get tough, set some boundaries, and demand details of the A.

Margrace....Bless your heart...You are giving ALL you can, he has to give ALL he can also before this is going to work. He must come clean, and get cooperative or your chances at R are slim. Now I'm NOT saying impossible, I'm just saying it takes 2 honest and open people for a R.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> Hi TAM Fam
> 
> Life gave MRs JH and I another kick last night as a very close and dear friend collapsed while walking out the door at his home.
> 
> His wife and a couple of other friends were with him -- thank God -- and called 911.
> 
> He is in the IC at the hospital this morning with bleeding on his brain. He is stable and alert -- but obviously something more serious appears to be going on.
> 
> I tell you this, so that everyone who reads this stops and thinks about how fragile life can be --
> 
> Make sure you make today the best day you ever have -- because no one is guaranteed the next breath.
> 
> I also posted this on Calvin/CSS's thread --
> 
> Just want people to realize that no matter what you situation in life may be -- we are all humans and we better make sure we are happy who we are -- because life as we know it -- may change dramatically or even end today.


whoa JH..that's awful. So sorry to hear this. I hope he's ok.

Yes, this puts things into perspective alright. I'm not having the greatest morning, but your friend I'm sure isn't either and he has to be scared along with his family.

prayers for him and you jh.


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## jh52

margrace said:


> so very sorry to hear about your friend's health scare. yes, it puts things into perspective, and i hope he continues to improve....


Thank You MG !!


----------



## margrace

thank you, B1. so many truths are shining out for me from your words, many of them hard truths. 

above all, i really appreciate the _way _you are conveying your thoughts to me. it helps make hard truths easier to hear. i will respond below.



betrayed1 said:


> I'm sorry to say this but it sounds as if he still has feelings for the OW.
> And he's still in the so called fog. He has yet to realize just how wrong he was and is.
> *
> yes, i see. part of him is still in it with OW.*
> 
> The "he does not deserve me" statement, yeah, I heard that too, when EI was deep into the A.
> He is missing this OW and he, I believe, still cares for you but feels guilty that he cares for her too.
> *
> still cares, but as you are suggesting, maybe doesn't love me (enough).*
> 
> Now, the question is, Does he love you. And can you let this play out. You are basically second right now, until his head clears and you see what he really wants.
> 
> *i guess i have been second and have been letting it play out for a while, although i did not see it and he denied it.*
> 
> He isn't giving you true solid remorse, he's feeling guilty that's it. EI felt guilty plenty of times while in the A, I didn't get remorse until it was broke off and a month passed by.
> 
> This is tough margrace, I am so sorry you are going through this. Letting it play out may work out?
> 
> *is that the same as giving it time? or are there maybe things you would suggest that i do in the meantime?*
> 
> I know I held EI plenty of times in the beginning of R when she was upset over her AP and not me. At the time there was nothing else for us to do so I went with it. But EI was very open and we talked constantly, that helped.
> *
> yes, i wish that WH had the openness and ability to introspect that EI has. he has never really been great at that, even when things were good. i often feel like maybe i am not bringing it up the right way, but it could also be that there is no right way when the person isn't willing to do it. *
> 
> But, though we were talking, she was missing the AP bad in the first few weeks after Dday. She had made the decision to try, and held on to that, while suffering the loss of her AP, i.e. drug. She didn't break NC but it wasn't easy for her.
> 
> In your case, the OW moved away forcing the NC and forcing your husband to go cold turkey from his AP, i.e. drug.
> He's in withdraw and a bit bitter, I bet he is down a lot too, having a whoa-is-me attitude.
> 
> He is 2 months out from last contact, that should be enough time to at least start breaking free of the fog, if not break completely free from it. I have to wonder if there hasn't been some more contact? -that would keep this problem going, it would keep him in this state he's in. He's getting a hit, by contacting her, now and then but he knows he can't have the OW. Since he does care for you, he's feeling horrible about what he's doing. I hope I am wrong here!
> 
> You may just have to start snooping again to verify NC. I am highly suspicious here.
> 
> *yes, me too.*
> 
> You are going to have to ask him if he still cares for the OW.
> He HAS to give you answers to your questions, NO holding back.
> 
> *
> i guess i will do this tonight.*
> 
> You may just have to get tough, set some boundaries, and demand details of the A.
> 
> *and if he doesn't want to give them... i guess that's it. i don't like feeling that there's nothing else that can be done, but i guess not everyone in my situation can come out the way that you and the other reconciling couples have.*
> 
> Margrace....Bless your heart...You are giving ALL you can, he has to give ALL he can also before this is going to work. He must come clean, and get cooperative or your chances at R are slim. Now I'm NOT saying impossible, I'm just saying it takes 2 honest and open people for a R.


of course i'm in tears by now even though i'm at work.

but yes, it takes two. yes, he has to give all, just like i am.

i think that he thinks he IS giving all! he tells me that he is resigned to having to tell me about every place he goes and everyone he talks to for the rest of his life, etc. and that he accepts this as doing what's necessary to keep me in the marriage. he doesn't understand (or doesn't want to understand) what it is that he's _not_ giving me.

thank you for taking this time on my behalf, and thank you for saying what you had to say in a way that i could really take it in.


----------



## SomedayDig

JH52...the story of your friend is one of the biggest reasons I try to live every day the best that I can. We never know. Ever. 

Last summer I was flying my jet on a very routine trip. NJ to DC. Simple. Usually takes about 35 minutes. It was summer and 130 degrees on the runway. It was pretty uncomfortable. Anyway, on our takeoff roll, I noticed we had sluggish acceleration, but I anticipated it. We were a light weight for the trip and only had 2 passengers.

About half way down the runway, I realized that we were barely making power but we were too late in the roll to do anything otherwise. Our decision speed (where its go/no-go) had already been reached. 

I knew we were dead. As the co-pilot took off (I had allowed him to do the flight because he needed the experience in those conditions) I just looked over at him and said, "Don't pull back any more". I feared that we would stall the wing and that would definitely do us in. We barely cleared the trees, about 50' higher, and the damn jet just didn't want to do its job. Well, the engines didn't...the jet wanted to fly.

Anyway, we clipped Newark airspace and got yelled at. I explained our situation and they cleared us another way around. We finally began to accelerate and climb. Once we hit about 10,000 feet, the air had cooled to around 90 and our performance increased.

My last thought as we barely lifted off the ground was Regret and our children's faces.

It was a flight I had done literally hundreds of times.

We never know. Ever.


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> JH52...the story of your friend is one of the biggest reasons I try to live every day the best that I can. We never know. Ever.
> 
> Last summer I was flying my jet on a very routine trip. NJ to DC. Simple. Usually takes about 35 minutes. It was summer and 130 degrees on the runway. It was pretty uncomfortable. Anyway, on our takeoff roll, I noticed we had sluggish acceleration, but I anticipated it. We were a light weight for the trip and only had 2 passengers.
> 
> About half way down the runway, I realized that we were barely making power but we were too late in the roll to do anything otherwise. Our decision speed (where its go/no-go) had already been reached.
> 
> I knew we were dead. As the co-pilot took off (I had allowed him to do the flight because he needed the experience in those conditions) I just looked over at him and said, "Don't pull back any more". I feared that we would stall the wing and that would definitely do us in. We barely cleared the trees, about 50' higher, and the damn jet just didn't want to do its job. Well, the engines didn't...the jet wanted to fly.
> 
> Anyway, we clipped Newark airspace and got yelled at. I explained our situation and they cleared us another way around. We finally began to accelerate and climb. Once we hit about 10,000 feet, the air had cooled to around 90 and our performance increased.
> 
> My last thought as we barely lifted off the ground was Regret and our children's faces.
> 
> It was a flight I had done literally hundreds of times.
> 
> We never know. Ever.


So true Dig -- thanks for sharing your story and obviously something you will never forget and have learned a life lesson as well. 

Hope you, Regret and the family is well.


----------



## joe kidd

Ok . Hotel reservation booked. On the 20th pidge and I are going to have a nice dinner, head to a costume party and then see how weird Halloween can get back in the room.


----------



## jh52

joe kidd said:


> Ok . Hotel reservation booked. On the 20th pidge and I are going to have a nice dinner, head to a costume party and then see how weird Halloween can get back in the room.


Trick or Treat !:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## margrace

along the lines of our last exchange, i confronted him just now. he refused to tell me anything more than he had before. i asked him to leave. he is packing as i type.


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## joe kidd

margrace said:


> along the lines of our last exchange, i confronted him just now. he refused to tell me anything more than he had before. i asked him to leave. he is packing as i type.


I'm so very sorry for you.


----------



## SomedayDig

Oh no. And I was hoping to go to bed with a smile on my face. I'm so sorry you're going through this margrace. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers this evening.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> along the lines of our last exchange, i confronted him just now. he refused to tell me anything more than he had before. i asked him to leave. he is packing as i type.


Margrace..So so sorry. Hang tough. His refusal is just wrong. If he is more willing to pack than to stay and talk then this was inevitable. Perhaps it may just wake him up? my thoughts and prayers are with you tonight. So sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace, my heart is breaking for you. I wish I could find the right words to say to heal your aching heart, but there are no words.... only time. You've done everything you can do, margrace, you can't reconcile your marriage, alone. Your husband is the one who should have been doing the heavy lifting, at this point. I'm so, so sorry. It's time for you to start taking care of you. I think this might be one of those situations where "you can't nice someone out of an affair." Even if he isn't seeing the OW he is still not fully re-committed to attempting to reconcile the marriage. His refusal to even try to meet your most basic needs proves this. It doesn't mean that he woke wake up, at some point, but right now you need to step back and let him start to feel the consequences of his actions. I've never, once, said this to anyone on TAM, because, honestly, I don't really feel like I identify with most of the people on TAM and I dislike some of their "canned" responses, but I believe it is time for you to do the 180. I was planning to take a "mental health leave from TAM," but I won't right now. We'll be right here for you.... lean on us. (((Hugs)))
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

thanks everyone.

it's hard to take in that someone would choose to hold onto their lies over the marriage. 

he didn't even deny that he knows that i know. he insisted that he has told me as much as he is going to, and that he had informed me of that -- that he would disclose no more information. so he's staying committed to that position.

in other words, he tried to make it into something i did to him, rather than a choice that he made:

"i told you that i did terrible things, things that i shouldn't have done. that's the truth. it's YOU who has decided to create this ultimatum, after i've already made my position clear. so it's YOU who's doing this to us."

most of me knows that i did as much as i could. a tiny part of me says, did i really need him to admit to the others? they were in the past, before the one that i know about... he suggested that i just want to humiliate him more, and that it was never going to end, it was never going to be enough. 
could that be true?

i just felt that i needed for him to be honest. i think i could have forgiven anything if there was honesty and a good faith effort to work hard on our problems.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> thanks everyone.
> 
> it's hard to take in that someone would choose to hold onto their lies over the marriage.
> 
> he didn't even deny that he knows that i know. he insisted that he has told me as much as he is going to, and that he had informed me of that -- that he would disclose no more information. so he's staying committed to that position.
> 
> in other words, he tried to make it into something i did to him, rather than a choice that he made:
> 
> "i told you that i did terrible things, things that i shouldn't have done. that's the truth. it's YOU who has decided to create this ultimatum, after i've already made my position clear. so it's YOU who's doing this to us."
> 
> most of me knows that i did as much as i could. a tiny part of me says, did i really need him to admit to the others? they were in the past, before the one that i know about... *he suggested that i just want to humiliate him more, and that it was never going to end, it was never going to be enough.
> could that be true?*
> i just felt that i needed for him to be honest. i think i could have forgiven anything if there was honesty and a good faith effort to work hard on our problems.



Sure it would end sometime, and sometime in the future it would be enough...but NOT after 2 months, probably not after a year...but it will slow down tremendously. He messed up here, he made the choice to cheat. He HAS to accept that your in pain, that YOU hurt and need his understanding,love and compassion. 
He is still focusing on him and NOT thinking about you. 

_"i just felt that i needed for him to be honest. i think i could have forgiven anything if there was honesty and a good faith effort to work hard on our problems"_

Exactly!


How are things this morning?


----------



## margrace

this morning, i am kind of all over the place.

i don't think i could have gone on like this... with him knowing that i know what really happened, but with the two of us "agreeing" that he does not need to own up to it because that was his line in the sand. i.e., "it's in the past! i've told you as much as i'm going to!"

lots of tears, which i hate. lots of second thoughts about what i could have done. couldn't i have waited? couldn't i have put up with a bit more? couldn't i have given it a bit more time? etc. etc.

hate it that i still love him -- or _something_. it's some kind of feeling that i think is love, anyway. i miss him and i hate that.

i was talking to a friend last night about his insistence that i am asking for too much and his staunch refusal to be honest. "you know why he won't do it?" she said. "it's because it's not in his heart. that's not what's in his heart."

most of the time, it really did seem like he loved me.


----------



## joe kidd

Ok. Been doing some hard thinking. Looking into myself a little (I don't do that much, a few things locked in there that don't need to see the light of day). I (gulp) admit that I've been an insufferable bastard for the better part of the last 2 yrs. 
I justified my behavior by saying she brought upon herself. 
I asked myself if the tables were turned how long would I take it? Verbal abuse, snide comments, basically telling her " Eat it all b*tch, you filled this plate so eat every damn bite!".
Well the answer is not as long as she has. It's time to put the monster to bed. 
So here it goes.....you screwed up, I screwed up. Here is what I propose. I'll love you and you love me and we make a life together worth having. The wall is down and my heart lays bare for you to fill. (yes I do have one it's just been in cased in stone for a long time). No more half assed attempt on my part. 
I'm new at this happy thing pidge, I'm hoping you can teach me.​


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> this morning, i am kind of all over the place.


Of course you are. Feeling any other way, right now, would not even be normal. So, hang on, because you are going to get through this. (((Hugs)))



margrace said:


> i don't think i could have gone on like this... with him knowing that i know what really happened, but with the two of us "agreeing" that he does not need to own up to it because that was his line in the sand. i.e., "it's in the past! i've told you as much as i'm going to!"


You didn't "agree," you were coerced into submission, because he psychologically strong-armed you into accepting, out of the kindness of your heart and because of your genuine desire to reconcile, that _his_ terms regarding his needs, desires and comfort level, at this time, takes precedence over yours. Exactly the same behavior he displayed while being unfaithful to you. Just when is he going to put _your _needs, desires and comfort first??? Ever?



margrace said:


> lots of tears, which i hate. lots of second thoughts about what i could have done. couldn't i have waited? couldn't i have put up with a bit more? couldn't i have given it a bit more time? etc. etc.


margrace, your husband is the one who had an affair. If _anyone_ should be crying and asking their selves what they coulda/shoulda/woulda have done.... it should be him... and, although your heart is breaking, you know that's true. Let me add, that I am aware of the fact that you willingly acknowledge that you, too, made mistakes in your marriage. And, as the former WS in my marriage, I am so grateful that I have a husband who doesn't point the finger of "blame" towards me for my choice to have an affair, without first acknowledging his own blame for failing to take action on working to improve our marriage, prior to my affair. That being said, it doesn't lessen the intense pain that B1 suffers because of my betrayal. 

If you and your husband eventually choose to reconcile, you and he can each own your share of the blame for the problems in the marriage, and work on them going forward. But unless and until he gives you all of the facts necessary for you to determine if this is a man that you can be married to then I don't understand how it is that he feels that he should be the one choosing where to draw the line in the sand.

What should you be doing? You can't work on your issues in the marriage until you and he determine if there is going to be a marriage. What should you wait for? What more should you put up with? Are you waiting to see if he will be faithful? Should you put up with more of him avoiding owning his $hit and giving you the facts that you are entitled to in order to make an informed choice. Should you give him more time to try to manipulate you into feeling guilty for expecting him to willingly be transparent instead of begrudgingly... when he should be bending over backwards asking you "what can I do to help you heal?" It would seem, from what we're reading that you are doing all of the work and making all of the concessions and sacrifices in order to reconcile your marriage. What is he doing? He can't just say "Present, willing to be faithful, now, let's move along." It will never be that simple. 



margrace said:


> hate it that i still love him -- or _something_. it's some kind of feeling that i think is love, anyway. i miss him and i hate that.
> 
> i was talking to a friend last night about his insistence that i am asking for too much and his staunch refusal to be honest. "you know why he won't do it?" she said. "it's because it's not in his heart. that's not what's in his heart."
> 
> most of the time, it really did seem like he loved me.


I know this is hard and painful and that you are second guessing everything, right now. But, margrace, if this is all that he is offering you at a time when his love for you should, at least override his desire to not be humiliated (and, I don't buy that anyway.... sorry) then, if you do reconcile and he has never had to own up to the trauma that he inflicted upon you.... how much more could you expect from him when he deems that you have "let this go," or "loosened the reins?" I don't think he is sorry he did it. I think he is annoyed that he got caught and he has no intentions of suffering any consequences and is showing no willingness to help alleviate your suffering... suffering that he caused.

I don't read too, too many threads because I just don't have the time and energy to get involved with every "story" on TAM. There are a few that I have taken a personal interest in and they have usually ended up posting here on the Reconciliation thread. I hope that I haven't been too harsh.... God knows that isn't my style. It isn't my intention to cause you any more pain that what you are already suffering. I am a huge believer in reconciliation, but without both spouses being 100% committed to the incredible amount of time, patience, love, sacrifice and perhaps, above all, honesty required then I don't see how a successful reconciliation can be possible.

We're all here for you. It may not seem like much.... but it has been a lifeline for me. I think B1 would agree.....


----------



## B1

joe kidd said:


> Ok. Been doing some hard thinking. Looking into myself a little (I don't do that much, a few things locked in there that don't need to see the light of day). I (gulp) admit that I've been an insufferable bastard for the better part of the last 2 yrs.
> I justified my behavior by saying she brought upon herself.
> I asked myself if the tables were turned how long would I take it? Verbal abuse, snide comments, basically telling her " Eat it all b*tch, you filled this plate so eat every damn bite!".
> Well the answer is not as long as she has. It's time to put the monster to bed.
> So here it goes.....you screwed up, I screwed up. Here is what I propose. I'll love you and you love me and we make a life together worth having. The wall is down and my heart lays bare for you to fill. (yes I do have one it's just been in cased in stone for a long time). No more half assed attempt on my part.
> I'm new at this happy thing pidge, I'm hoping you can teach me.​


Wow jk, So glad you are able to let those walls down. Mine came down on and around Dday#2. I just could't keep them up any longer. It has been the BEST thing I ever did for myself, my family, EI and our marriage. Had I not let down my walls R would NOT have been possible. No matter how remorsefull and sorry our wives are, with stone walls up blocking everything, a real successful R just isn't possible.

As I keep saying, it takes 2 for this to work. NOT one working 100% and the other giving 0-50%, it takes 100% from both parties.

Now, the trick is to NOT let the walls back up, this had me VERY concerned for a while, I was afriad there was some automated emergency backup procedure that would kick in and raise them back up. This, thank God, has not happened. Granted with them down, I feel pain now, I hurt, I cry but.. I laugh, love and feel everything now. It's a better and more healthy place to be. Welcome to the land without walls Joe


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> Ok. Been doing some hard thinking. Looking into myself a little (I don't do that much, a few things locked in there that don't need to see the light of day). I (gulp) admit that I've been an insufferable bastard for the better part of the last 2 yrs.
> I justified my behavior by saying she brought upon herself.
> I asked myself if the tables were turned how long would I take it? Verbal abuse, snide comments, basically telling her " Eat it all b*tch, you filled this plate so eat every damn bite!".
> Well the answer is not as long as she has. It's time to put the monster to bed.
> So here it goes.....you screwed up, I screwed up. Here is what I propose. I'll love you and you love me and we make a life together worth having. The wall is down and my heart lays bare for you to fill. (yes I do have one it's just been in cased in stone for a long time). No more half assed attempt on my part.
> I'm new at this happy thing pidge, I'm hoping you can teach me.​



Oh my God..... I just read that and literally, truly, got goosebumps all over my arms. I'm crying, great big, sloppy, wet, happy tears. Where's a tissue when I need it? That was so beautiful, Joe! What a huge admission.... When you let go of all of that bitterness that has filled your heart, you make room for all of the love that Pidge has been waiting, so patiently, to give you.

I can not wait to see all of the amazing changes that await the the two of you and your precious children!

Wow............. :smthumbup:


Read it a second time......... got goosebumps, again!


----------



## bfree

I know I've never commented here before but I have to say "God I love this thread!"

All of you make me feel that anything is possible. And if you knew me you'd probably either roll your eyes or run away laughing.

You are all so inspirational.


----------



## AMU

joe kidd said:


> Ok. Been doing some hard thinking. Looking into myself a little (I don't do that much, a few things locked in there that don't need to see the light of day). I (gulp) admit that I've been an insufferable bastard for the better part of the last 2 yrs.
> I justified my behavior by saying she brought upon herself.
> I asked myself if the tables were turned how long would I take it? Verbal abuse, snide comments, basically telling her " Eat it all b*tch, you filled this plate so eat every damn bite!".
> Well the answer is not as long as she has. It's time to put the monster to bed.
> So here it goes.....you screwed up, I screwed up. Here is what I propose. I'll love you and you love me and we make a life together worth having. The wall is down and my heart lays bare for you to fill. (yes I do have one it's just been in cased in stone for a long time). No more half assed attempt on my part.
> I'm new at this happy thing pidge, I'm hoping you can teach me.​


Yikes, Joe - you have me in tears. I'm happy for you both!!


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> I know I've never commented here before but I have to say "God I love this thread!"
> 
> All of you make me feel that anything is possible. And if you knew me you'd probably either roll your eyes or run away laughing.
> 
> You are all so inspirational.


Hey, bfree,

I've been noticing your comments on other threads recently. I'm so glad that you've found something inspirational on a thread that originated because of infidelity. I don't think any of us would roll our eyes or run away laughing at anyone.... we're all pretty busy trying to clean up our own backyards (marriages.) 

Why don't you share your story with us? We're all pretty friendly. Well, Calvin can be kinda moody, Dig is somewhat snarky, and B1 has spelling and punctuation issues........ (I'm going to be in soooooo much trouble...  LOL) and us ladies.... well, we've got a lot of work to do..... and there are others.... other hurting people in various stages in their marriages. We try to help one another out.... and, I think we do.

Thanks for the nice comment. Share your story with us!

Take care,
EI


----------



## EI

AllMessedUp said:


> Yikes, Joe - you have me in tears. I'm happy for you both!!


I've missed you, AMU. I'm keeping you, Harken and the girls in my prayers.... still hoping and praying for the best. <3


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> Wow jk, So glad you are able to let those walls down. Mine came down on and around Dday#2. I just could't keep them up any longer. It has been the BEST thing I ever did for myself, my family, EI and our marriage. Had I not let down my walls R would NOT have been possible. No matter how remorsefull and sorry our wives are, with stone walls up blocking everything, a real successful R just isn't possible.
> 
> As I keep saying, it takes 2 for this to work. NOT one working 100% and the other giving 0-50%, it takes 100% from both parties.
> 
> Now, the trick is to NOT let the walls back up, this had me VERY concerned for a while, I was afriad there was some automated emergency backup procedure that would kick in and raise them back up. This, thank God, has not happened. Granted with them down, I feel pain now, I hurt, I cry but.. I laugh, love and feel everything now. It's a better and more healthy place to be. Welcome to the land without walls Joe


I've never been an emotionally available guy. I got to know misery on D-day and it stuck around. I rolled in it. It was my drinking buddy, it whispered in my ear on a daily basis. It said " Here buddy, I'll help you build the wall. Not tall enough Joe, here's another brick". 
It stayed around because I let it. Welcomed it.


----------



## Acabado

I'm happy for you joe kidd. Huge, life altering, healthy, right decision. Sending strenght. Let go.

AllMessedUp, also sending positive vibes your way. Hope Harken start letting you in again. Hang tough.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> I've never been an emotionally available guy. I got to know misery on D-day and it stuck around. I rolled in it. It was my drinking buddy, it whispered in my ear on a daily basis. It said " Here buddy, I'll help you build the wall. Not tall enough Joe, here's another brick".
> It stayed around because I let it. Welcomed it.


You sound a lot like B1 before D-Day. He was a good man, a reliable man, a kind man.... but he was never really emotionally available.... never really vulnerable, always inhibited and he kept his deepest "feelings" locked safely away.... even from me. I always knew it, I just couldn't get through.... but, I kept hoping. The only real exception to that was with our children, they made him vulnerable, so I knew that he had "it" within him... but, in the last few years, he had begun to withdraw even from them a bit, and that broke my heart.

On D-day, his walls, involuntarily, came crashing down, $hitty timing for him, I know. To feel, to really feel every emotion and all he was feeling was intense pain. When I read what you said about getting to know misery pretty well and it stuck around and you rolled in it.... I think I realized something. Misery worked for you..... you could control it. You didn't have to rely on _anyone else_ for misery to "work" for you. It was almost dependable. Misery didn't provide highs that might build you up and give you hope, only to risk letting you down, again. Misery was solid and dependable and you learned how to function within it.... as long as you stayed miserable. Because it was yours... and you had 100% control of your misery.

For B1, he had involuntarily, I assume, settled on being "withdrawn, inhibited, and closed off." If you assume that things are bad, will never be better, this is your lot in life and you just have to accept it, then there are no expectations, therefore, no let downs, because you have settled on a life of disappointments.

You can't open your heart to the possibility of love, happiness, hope, anticipation and forgiveness, without risking rejection, sadness, heartbreak, and devastation. It is a risk because you have to be vulnerable to someone else... someone who could hurt you. Love is a risk with no guarantees. But, by holding onto to your misery and by B1 shutting out those who loved him the most, you might not have risked being hurt, but you were guaranteeing that you would never have the possibility of experiencing the full measure of love.

You have to decide whether to risk being hurt for the possibility of being happy, of loving someone and being loved? Or you can choose not to take any risks, to guarantee yourself no possibility of being hurt, by continuing to wallow in your own misery or by refusing to let others in.

I am so glad for you and Pidge, that you have decided to take that risk. And, as I have said, many times to B1 and on this thread, I will always be grateful that he decided to love me the most, when I was the least lovable and least deserving of his love. I don't think I'll ever really understand how that happened, but I have come to trust in him, in his genuine love for me, and I know that his walls have come down, he's is vulnerable, and I don't ever plan to give him any reason to wish they hadn't.... ever, again.


----------



## margrace

EI, you said:

_And, as I have said, many times to B1 and on this thread, I will always be grateful that he decided to love me the most, when I was the least lovable and least deserving of his love. I don't think I'll ever really understand how that happened, but I have come to trust in him, in his genuine love for me._

do you all think there's a chance that i failed to do that for my WH? do you think things would be different if i had done what B1 did for you?


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> EI, you said:
> 
> _And, as I have said, many times to B1 and on this thread, I will always be grateful that he decided to love me the most, when I was the least lovable and least deserving of his love. I don't think I'll ever really understand how that happened, but I have come to trust in him, in his genuine love for me._
> 
> do you all think there's a chance that i failed to do that for my WH? do you think things would be different if i had done what B1 did for you?


I have a lump in my throat when I say this.... because I want for you to have a happy ending, a successful reconciliation, but I think that you have done what B1 did for me.... you have given him a chance, but margrace, he has to take that chance, own his part, give you what you need to heal. You can't reconcile your marriage alone. You can work on your own personal issues, and you should, whether you reconcile or not... for your own benefit, but you can't make him choose to be a better person. Even in the first few weeks after D-Day, when I did not believe that B1 and I could reconcile, was not truly feeling the love for him that a wife should feel for her husband, I could still see his suffering and my heart ached for him. I would have done anything, at that point, to alleviate his pain, and I did the best I could, at the time.... he and I comforted one another. And, we talked and talked and talked. We both felt sadness and regret for what we had lost. We both felt compassion for the suffering that we had inflicted upon each other. We were, both, honest, about things that most people never share with one another... but we were. We didn't know what else to do. 

What is your husband doing for you? He can't just tell you to "get over it." That's not acceptable. It won't work. You won't heal. Do you even know what the hell it is that you're supposed to be getting over? This isn't about you throwing this in his face or punishing him. He has to acknowledge what he did first. You know more about what he is doing to help reconcile your marriage than any of us do. You see what we don't. But, he chose to pack and leave last night.... not because you threw him out, but because he refused to give you one simple thing..... honesty.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Well done Joe. Keep up the good work!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

_You can't reconcile your marriage alone. You can work on your own personal issues, and you should, whether you reconcile or not... for your own benefit, but you can't make him choose to be a better person._

thank you for your kindness and patience with me, everyone. i seem to need to hear this more than once and in a few different ways.


----------



## SomedayDig

I just want to catch everyone up to speed on Dig's World.

Regret and I have been doing well. I thoroughly enjoy sitting on the couch with her night after night watching our shows...Young & the Restless among them! How Alpha of me 

I've been on an anti-depressant for about 4 weeks tomorrow. I can't tell you how huge of a difference it has made in my daily behavior. I don't fixate like I used to. I don't sit in a slump...well, I kinda did today cuz I got triggered yesterday after going past the hotel on my way to a class. But it will pass when we talk later.

Reading this thread gives me hope. It also brings a little pain at times. Mostly though...it's hope. I see so many good things that people are doing to save their marriages. One only needs to look at the myriad of threads recently and feel a black hole looming close. Then, I find this thread. 

I don't give a flying F what people think. THIS is a good thread. It has good and valid information and daily struggles that we all go through.

I wish everyone peace and love.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> EI, you said:
> 
> _And, as I have said, many times to B1 and on this thread, I will always be grateful that he decided to love me the most, when I was the least lovable and least deserving of his love. I don't think I'll ever really understand how that happened, but I have come to trust in him, in his genuine love for me._
> 
> do you all think there's a chance that i failed to do that for my WH? do you think things would be different if i had done what B1 did for you?


I think EI is right here...

When I did that for EI, she at least had compassion and comforted me too. Yes, I held her, but she held me too. And after a few weeks, probably less, remorse started setting in, she started REALLY getting it. She was really getting what she had done and started to say Sorry, and show true remorse. She would answer ALL my questions, NEVER saying that's enough...well maybe once or twice she said she had enough, but those were times when I was coming at here incessantly, with both barrels, just blasting away hour after hour. Still overall, she was always there for me. From Dday#2 until now she was there for me, with compassion, understanding, and open arms.

Can you say that your WH has been there for you since Dday?
Has he shown compassion, understanding, has he been open and available for you. Has he answered ALL your questions, even if they are repeats? Do you feel he has shown true remorse? 
And a biggie....Can you ask him questions without him getting defensive and snapping at you?

I SO WISH this would work out for you and maybe it still can?
Maybe there is still a chance he will come around once he realizes just what he lost. That's what snapped me out of my funk...I lost EI and I knew it, she was gone. I snapped..for the better. My walls came crashing down and love just poured out of me, It was unstoppable. That in turn had a major affect on EI, she, in turn and over time, fell back in love with me. In this disaster, this mess, we found each other again. We fell in love again.

Wishing you the best and praying for you Margrace!


----------



## bfree

Empty Inside said:


> Hey, bfree,
> 
> I've been noticing your comments on other threads recently. I'm so glad that you've found something inspirational on a thread that originated because of infidelity. I don't think any of us would roll our eyes or run away laughing at anyone.... we're all pretty busy trying to clean up our own backyards (marriages.)
> 
> Why don't you share your story with us? We're all pretty friendly. Well, Calvin can be kinda moody, Dig is somewhat snarky, and B1 has spelling and punctuation issues........ (I'm going to be in soooooo much trouble...  LOL) and us ladies.... well, we've got a lot of work to do..... and there are others.... other hurting people in various stages in their marriages. We try to help one another out.... and, I think we do.
> 
> Thanks for the nice comment. Share your story with us!
> 
> Take care,
> EI


Well, my story is pretty much the same as many. I was a typical guy who loved my wife more than anything in the world. I tried to give her everything she wanted, compromised on every issue and sacrificed the things I loved to make sure she could have and do the things she loved. Until the day I found her cheating on me with a coworker of hers. I responded the only way a man can right? I begged, pleaded and promised to be a better husband. Worked exactly like you think it did. She continued to cheat on me and in fact started cheating with a friend of mine as well. I finally couldn't take any more and demanded she stop cheating or I was going to file. She decided to file instead. We had no children and not much property so it was pretty much take with you what you brought.

I moped around for a long time until my friends dragged me out of the house. After some healing time I began dating until I found my current wife. Things started off well but I began doing the same things I did in my first marriage. Things like giving in to her every request and putting her on a pedestal. She never cheated but we gradually grew apart. Then I came here to TAM looking for answers. I never registered but I lurked quite a bit and saw references to No More Mr. Nice Guy, the 180, Married Man Sex Life, etc. NMMNG really hit home for me. I started taking charge of my life and my marriage. I became more of a leader and started doing some things for myself rather than everything for her. She started responding to my new found strength and now we are doing fantastic.

Well, that's my story.


----------



## B1

Much better day today, EI is happier and I had a good no mind movie day so far. I got some tests results back from the Dr. all good. Getting ready to settle in on the couch with EI now, that is, if she will settle down for a moment. 

On a side note...
I started taking a multi-vitamin and Omega-3. I think it's really helping. Never thought things like that would help much. Got the idea from married men sex life primer book. Now to start a gym membership and really work on getting me healthy, and EI too


----------



## bfree

betrayed1 said:


> Much better day today, EI is happier and I had a good no mind movie day so far. I got some tests results back from the Dr. all good. Getting ready to settle in on the couch with EI now, that is, if she will settle down for a moment.
> 
> On a side note...
> I started taking a multi-vitamin and Omega-3. I think it's really helping. Never thought things like that would help much. Got the idea from married men sex life primer book. Now to start a gym membership and really work on getting me healthy, and EI too


B1,

When I started hitting them gym I began to have knee pain (it sucks getting older). I started taking Glucosamine.Chondroitin and after a couple of weeks my knees felt fine. Don't know if you've ever experienced knee issues but if you do after starting working out you might want to consider it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Well I am happy to have this thread to go to and have others to talk to that are in our situation. Better day today for us but that does not mean it's all better. We both now know there is no big moment where it's all fixed and everything is perfect. This is very very rough on Calvin but I know that we need to stick together 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

CantSitStill said:


> Well I am happy to have this thread to go to and have others to talk to that are in our situation. Better day today for us but that does not mean it's all better. We both now know there is no big moment where it's all fixed and everything is perfect. This is very very rough on Calvin but I know that we need to stick together
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know how hard it is for him. Calvin. Is there some dumbass in your ear at work feeding you crap? If there is tell him to stfu. Just wondering since work is where you trigger the most.


----------



## CantSitStill

JoeKidd so glad to hear you are letting those walls down and letting go  it still may take some counselling to get thru all of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

There's one idiot but I shut him up.
Couple times I was begging CSS for help and asking why I was being stung along.I was f'd up bad,shaking,vomiting,had'nt been sleeping...you know the routine.
Twice on the mill I almost took out my self and 3 other guys when I was running the remote crain with a 40 ton coil on it.

I've never done anything like that,now they dont trust me so much.

I was hauled up front for the days I was missing.....just some really bad memories there.


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> I think EI is right here...
> 
> Can you say that your WH has been there for you since Dday?
> Has he shown compassion, understanding, has he been open and available for you.
> 
> there have been moments of compassion and understanding, and times when he was open and available.
> 
> Has he answered ALL your questions, even if they are repeats?
> 
> no.
> 
> Do you feel he has shown true remorse?
> 
> i guess not.
> 
> And a biggie....Can you ask him questions without him getting defensive and snapping at you?
> 
> no.
> 
> I SO WISH this would work out for you and maybe it still can?
> Maybe there is still a chance he will come around once he realizes just what he lost.
> 
> you know what? i doubt it. he told me once about the longterm relationship that he was in before me. i remember him talking about the day they ended it. "i never looked back," he said. i never thought that that would be me.... because of course i believed that he _really_ loved me. but i guess it is me now.
> 
> 
> Wishing you the best and praying for you Margrace!
> 
> thanks to both you and EI xoxo


----------



## B1

bfree said:


> B1,
> 
> When I started hitting them gym I began to have knee pain (it sucks getting older). I started taking Glucosamine.Chondroitin and after a couple of weeks my knees felt fine. Don't know if you've ever experienced knee issues but if you do after starting working out you might want to consider it.


thank you bfree..that was another item that book mentioned getting. I will probably pick some up now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> There's one idiot but I shut him up.
> Couple times I was begging CSS for help and asking why I was being stung along.I was f'd up bad,shaking,vomiting,had'nt been sleeping...you know the routine.
> Twice on the mill I almost took out my self and 3 other guys when I was running the remote crain with a 40 ton coil on it.
> 
> I've never done anything like that,now they dont trust me so much.
> 
> I was hauled up front for the days I was missing.....just some really bad memories there.


Yeah, I got a call from the main office. " Joe I know you are going through a tough time but I need you to run the show, pull yourself together". He was telling me to pull my head out or get out.


----------



## DrDavidCOlsen

Reconciliation involves a number of important factors. First is forgiveness. Most people do not realize that forgiveness is a process that takes time. It means becoming vulnerable: to forgive is to take the risk of being hurt again. It also means being empathic, and understanding the other, and even why they were unfaithful. 
Second, it means understanding the underlying issues that might have lead to an affair. This is very difficult work and takes time and a skilled therapist. DrDavidCOlsen, "The Couple's Survival Workbook", and "The Spiritual Work of Marriage"


----------



## CantSitStill

DrDavidCOlsen said:


> Reconciliation involves a number of important factors. First is forgiveness. Most people do not realize that forgiveness is a process that takes time. It means becoming vulnerable: to forgive is to take the risk of being hurt again. It also means being empathic, and understanding the other, and even why they were unfaithful.
> Second, it means understanding the underlying issues that might have lead to an affair. This is very difficult work and takes time and a skilled therapist. DrDavidCOlsen, "The Couple's Survival Workbook", and "The Spiritual Work of Marriage"


Do you have a link ? A website?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> Much better day today, EI is happier and I had a good no mind movie day so far. I got some tests results back from the Dr. all good. Getting ready to settle in on the couch with EI now, that is, if she will settle down for a moment.
> 
> On a side note...
> I started taking a multi-vitamin and Omega-3. I think it's really helping. Never thought things like that would help much. Got the idea from married men sex life primer book. Now to start a gym membership and really work on getting me healthy, and EI too


B1 I started working out in Aug. I feel good and my back stopped hurting. Pidge is always coming up and rubbing on my shoulders and arms now. LOL. I look better and feel better. I have been drinking whey protein. What did it for me was one day I was walking into a store. I saw my moobs bouncing as I walked in the reflection from the glass door. No more man boobs. LOL


----------



## calvin

Morning everyone,I think I'm actually going to have a two day weekend for a change!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Morning Everyone,

Happy Friday! B1 and I, both, have IC today. That can be a good thing or it can be a stressful thing. Let's hope it's good, otherwise, it's going to be a _looooooong_ weekend.


----------



## margrace

good morning -- funny, i have IC today too and boy, do i need it  friday is a good day for that, i guess!


----------



## joe kidd

We talked last night. She said my post shocked her, that she didn't think I had that in me. Those of you who have seen the venom in some of my posts know that I'm not excusing what she did. 
I have come to the conclusion that I have been unavailable to her for 14 yrs.
She lived with the emotional equivalent of a rock. Her attempts to connect with me were met with a raised eyebrow and a shake of the head most of the time. 
I found that her idea of love and mine were way off. I thought my job was to work, provide, maintain.
I was (and still am, but working on it) a cold and distant man. 
I thought the fact that I worked my butt off and came home to my family every night showed I loved her. If she wanted more I called her demanding. If she tried to reason I told her not to nag. 
If I didn't like what I was hearing I would shut down, bull up and make her feel like crap for even suggesting that I needed to give some more. 
She knows how hard it is for me to say this but here it goes......I was wrong. I am sorry.


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> We talked last night. She said my post shocked her, that she didn't think I had that in me. Those of you who have seen the venom in some of my posts know that I'm not excusing what she did.
> I have come to the conclusion that I have been unavailable to her for 14 yrs.
> She lived with the emotional equivalent of a rock. Her attempts to connect with me were met with a raised eyebrow and a shake of the head most of the time.
> I found that her idea of love and mine were way off. I thought my job was to work, provide, maintain.
> I was (and still am, but working on it) a cold and distant man.
> I thought the fact that I worked my butt off and came home to my family every night showed I loved her. If she wanted more I called her demanding. If she tried to reason I told her not to nag.
> If I didn't like what I was hearing I would shut down, bull up and make her feel like crap for even suggesting that I needed to give some more.
> She knows how hard it is for me to say this but here it goes......I was wrong. I am sorry.


I am so very sorry for what I did to you/us. I love you Joe, I hope you know that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> We talked last night. She said my post shocked her, that she didn't think I had that in me. Those of you who have seen the venom in some of my posts know that I'm not excusing what she did.
> I have come to the conclusion that I have been unavailable to her for 14 yrs.
> She lived with the emotional equivalent of a rock. Her attempts to connect with me were met with a raised eyebrow and a shake of the head most of the time.
> I found that her idea of love and mine were way off. I thought my job was to work, provide, maintain.
> I was (and still am, but working on it) a cold and distant man.
> I thought the fact that I worked my butt off and came home to my family every night showed I loved her. If she wanted more I called her demanding. If she tried to reason I told her not to nag.
> If I didn't like what I was hearing I would shut down, bull up and make her feel like crap for even suggesting that I needed to give some more.
> She knows how hard it is for me to say this but here it goes......I was wrong. I am sorry.





pidge70 said:


> I am so very sorry for what I did to you/us. I love you Joe, I hope you know that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing to add to this! It's absolutely *BEAUTIFUL*

Thank you, both, for sharing it with us!


----------



## B1

joe kidd said:


> We talked last night. She said my post shocked her, that she didn't think I had that in me. Those of you who have seen the venom in some of my posts know that I'm not excusing what she did.
> I have come to the conclusion that I have been unavailable to her for 14 yrs.
> She lived with the emotional equivalent of a rock. Her attempts to connect with me were met with a raised eyebrow and a shake of the head most of the time.
> I found that her idea of love and mine were way off. I thought my job was to work, provide, maintain.
> I was (and still am, but working on it) a cold and distant man.
> I thought the fact that I worked my butt off and came home to my family every night showed I loved her. If she wanted more I called her demanding. If she tried to reason I told her not to nag.
> If I didn't like what I was hearing I would shut down, bull up and make her feel like crap for even suggesting that I needed to give some more.
> She knows how hard it is for me to say this but here it goes......*I was wrong. I am sorry*.


Joe, you have NO IDEA what those words mean to your wife. I hope you told her in person too. I am so glad you shared this wth us also. It's a very special day for you two.

Now take her out to dinner somewhere nice


----------



## Acabado

joe kidd, pidge70
Thak you.


----------



## Acabado

And congratulations.


----------



## Acabado

Hope is contagious. And love too.


----------



## CantSitStill

feeling the hope here too, love the turnaround joekidd has had 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hope you all have a relaxing and peaceful weekend.
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

I don't feel like I should really post on here yet, but I hope someday I will feel like I belong in this club. 

I do want to say thank you though to those of you sharing your stories on here. I agree with Acabado, hope is contagious. It's hard to imagine that love can grow after such a horrible thing like betrayal, but you all are proof that it can. I commend you all, and I thank you again for sharing your reconciliations on here.


----------



## B1

ChangingMe said:


> I don't feel like I should really post on here yet, but I hope someday I will feel like I belong in this club.
> 
> I do want to say thank you though to those of you sharing your stories on here. I agree with Acabado, hope is contagious. It's hard to imagine that love can grow after such a horrible thing like betrayal, but you all are proof that it can. I commend you all, and I thank you again for sharing your reconciliations on here.



CM, welcome and please feel free to post away. This is a journey none of us really want to be on, but here we are anyway. 
Glad you found us, please, like I said, feel free to ask away, vent away, post away


----------



## B1

Had a rough night and rough morning. Me and EI had a bad argument last night that carried over through this morning. We are doing better now. EI had counseling a little earlier and then we both had counseling together.

This helped a lot. We both still have work to do, but like we already know this is a process, R isn't going to happen over night. It's something that does take work, it takes patience and understanding and it takes knowing when to stop obsessing over certain things. 

I came at EI last night in anger, screamed at her for the first time in months...I was angry. I feel horrible now and I am sorry I did that. I'm sorry I lost control, it scared her and that's not ok.

Tomorrow will be 4 months out for us, so as you can see, it's still pretty fresh. She is out now running errands and I wish she was here with me. 

I need to let go of some things but it's so [email protected] hard to do.


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> I don't feel like I should really post on here yet, but I hope someday I will feel like I belong in this club.
> 
> I do want to say thank you though to those of you sharing your stories on here. I agree with Acabado, hope is contagious. It's hard to imagine that love can grow after such a horrible thing like betrayal, but you all are proof that it can. I commend you all, and I thank you again for sharing your reconciliations on here.


Hey CM,

We're not an exclusive group.... I always hated those kinds of clubs. I'm one of those who wouldn't want to belong to any kind of club that would have me for a member, anyway! LOL Besides all that, who really aspires to be in a group of waywards and betrayeds, right? So,.......... the more the merrier! Everyone is welcome to comment here. We are all at various stages of coping with infidelity. Reconciliation, I believe, is not something that will ever be checked off of a "To Do List," but is much more like sobriety..... It is an ongoing choice every day. You have to choose every day to keep moving forward and to keep loving one another, in good times and in bad, and to keep reconciling that which was shattered by infidelity. So, please feel free to post here, anytime you'd like. I'm following your story and I'm sure several others are, as well. No one here claims to be a role model for reconciliation...... We're all just hanging tough with where ever we happen to be in our journeys . I know that B1 and I had back to back IC sessions today, mine was first and B1 asked me to stay for his. By the time his session ended, the ONLY thing that he and I had agreed on, today, is that we love each other and we're going to keep trying. I think our MC wanted to leave the room a couple of times. LOL But, when the session ended and he and I walked out to our separate cars to go our separate ways for the rest of the afternoon (me to run errands, him back to work) We couldn't keep our hands off of one another..... Not really in a sexual way, just a very loving, intimate way... We love one another, we need one another, we comfort one another, yet we hurt one another, as well. But, we decided that we can do this.... at least for today. One more day..........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Had a rough night and rough morning. Me and EI had a bad argument last night that carried over through this morning. We are doing better now. EI had counseling a little earlier and then we both had counseling together.
> 
> This helped a lot. We both still have work to do, but like we already know this is a process, R isn't going to happen over night. It's something that does take work, it takes patience and understanding and it takes knowing when to stop obsessing over certain things.
> 
> I came at EI last night in anger, screamed at her for the first time in months...I was angry. I feel horrible now and I am sorry I did that. I'm sorry I lost control, it scared her and that's not ok.
> 
> Tomorrow will be 4 months out for us, so as you can see, it's still pretty fresh. She is out now running errands and I wish she was here with me.
> 
> I need to let go of some things but it's so [email protected] hard to do.


I know the feeling B1,I havent yelled at CSS yet,I just dont see what good it would do.
She knows how I feel sometimes.
Next time go for a walk,come on here and vent or do something do get rid of it.
Hang in there man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> Had a rough night and rough morning. Me and EI had a bad argument last night that carried over through this morning. We are doing better now. EI had counseling a little earlier and then we both had counseling together.
> 
> This helped a lot. We both still have work to do, but like we already know this is a process, R isn't going to happen over night. It's something that does take work, it takes patience and understanding and it takes knowing when to stop obsessing over certain things.
> 
> I came at EI last night in anger, screamed at her for the first time in months...I was angry. I feel horrible now and I am sorry I did that. I'm sorry I lost control, it scared her and that's not ok.
> 
> Tomorrow will be 4 months out for us, so as you can see, it's still pretty fresh. She is out now running errands and I wish she was here with me.
> 
> I need to let go of some things but it's so [email protected] hard to do.


Been there. 4mos is not a long time. I will say you are way ahead in your R compared to the 4 mo mark in ours.


----------



## SomedayDig

B1...anger happens with this stuff, man. At 4 months I think I had just begun to really allow myself to feel angry. Regret however did one thing a bit different. She didn't react to me. I saw the pain on her face...the hurt that I threw out at her. She never said a word. She just let me feel it.

One thing that I've noticed being 7 months out now, is that sometimes the anger comes seemingly from nowhere. It just hits me. Now, though, the Paxil has totally helped me in that regard. I am much more in control of my emotions. My IC today said that he could see a big difference. We had a great session. A lot of info came out and I've got some more good stuff to contemplate this week.

B1...brother...all I can say is that you need to allow yourself to feel the anger, yet stay in control. Realize that some of the things that hurt us most are the things that hurt our ego. The part that makes us feel a little less like men. Well, man...you have to be willing to look past that ego. To understand that this stuff truly isn't about you. It was about EI and her bad decisions.

I hope you guys have a good weekend. I've got a big motorcycle club function tomorrow all day (and we have a sitter from 1-6!!) and then I have office phone work on Sunday.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hmm wondering if something like Paxil or one of those seratonin drugs would help Calvin. B1 you got angry and scared her..oh my gosh I feel so bad for you guys. It does scare us when you guys trigger. The good news is you apologised and will get thru this. Anger is there and will come back but just don't give up on eachother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

> Besides all that, who really aspires to be in a group of waywards and betrayeds


Well, EI, as someone who fits in both sides of that, not quite sure what to make of myself, now!


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> Hmm wondering if something like Paxil or one of those seratonin drugs would help Calvin. B1 you got angry and scared her..oh my gosh I feel so bad for you guys. It does scare us when you guys trigger. The good news is you apologised and will get thru this. Anger is there and will come back but just don't give up on eachother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I haven't got my glasses on -parrot is on my shoulder and she steals them off my face!- and I misread that. I thought you said Paxo, rather than Paxil!:rofl: Home Page | Paxo It's a famous brand of stuffing in the UK!

I was on a serotonin drug (Seroxat in the UK) after my revenge affair for a while -about a month, I think, and it did help me. 

BTW apparently oats have serotonin in them.


----------



## margrace

hi everyone:

some of you will remember that i had thought of myself as working on R -- but my WH steadfastly refused to acknowledge/discuss any infidelities beyond one. i know that there were several others over the past couple of years, with one OW still there at his workplace now. he did not really deny -- his position was that i was asking for "details" simply to humiliate him.

you gently helped me accept some things that should have been obvious: that i can't do all the work of R all by myself, and that wanting to know the truth about what happened is not too much to ask. 

so earlier this week, i asked him again for honesty, and when he redrew the same line in the sand, i asked him to leave. he chose leaving over honesty.

thank you again. (((you))) helped me do this -- i told my IC this today. your presence out there somewhere is such a gift 

WH has just emailed me, suggesting that he would like to come over tomorrow and talk. actually what he wrote is that if i would like to meet and talk, tomorrow afternoon would work. 

he will have been gone for 3 days at that point. i have been a mess since then, but i'm holding it together.

given that he has worded this as something that _i _might like to do, it doesn't feel like to me he is going to be contrite and/or want to come back.

but i will be here then.... and i would like to feel like i can speak to him in an honest way AND have good boundaries for myself.

i don't want to foreclose R forever but i definitely don't want to go back to square 1 either.

if you have any reactions to quickly share, that would be great. but i will keep you posted either way.


----------



## Acabado

SomedayDig said:


> B1...anger happens with this stuff, man. At 4 months I think I had just begun to really allow myself to feel angry. Regret however did one thing a bit different. She didn't react to me. I saw the pain on her face...the hurt that I threw out at her. She never said a word. She just let me feel it.


Exactly the same timing happened in our reconciliation (I Worded it that way becuase I consider I started R the moment I decide to put on hold the D, the three months following DDay went in the opposite direction). I stayed there for at least six months. Very angry. And very sad also. Then the anger started to dissipate, thanks to my wife who toke it like a champ. The fact we are together and happy is a miracle.
Every marriage is at a different point at DDay, they arrive there from different places, sure enough the inmediate aftermath is different. There's not a "how to", a manual to reconcile after infidelity, no matter the amout of books they write about it.
But it's possible when both spouses want it. My wife didn't allow me to keep it inside and fester. I think it was key for me. The credit where it belongs.


----------



## calvin

marg,can you get him on Tams? It opened up CSS's eyes a lot
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> some of you will remember that i had thought of myself as working on R -- but my WH steadfastly refused to acknowledge/discuss any infidelities beyond one. i know that there were several others over the past couple of years, with one OW still there at his workplace now. he did not really deny -- his position was that i was asking for "details" simply to humiliate him.
> 
> you gently helped me accept some things that should have been obvious: that i can't do all the work of R all by myself, and that wanting to know the truth about what happened is not too much to ask.
> 
> so earlier this week, i asked him again for honesty, and when he redrew the same line in the sand, i asked him to leave. he chose leaving over honesty.
> 
> thank you again. (((you))) helped me do this -- i told my IC this today. your presence out there somewhere is such a gift
> 
> WH has just emailed me, suggesting that he would like to come over tomorrow and talk. actually what he wrote is that if i would like to meet and talk, tomorrow afternoon would work.
> 
> he will have been gone for 3 days at that point. i have been a mess since then, but i'm holding it together.
> 
> given that he has worded this as something that _i _might like to do, it doesn't feel like to me he is going to be contrite and/or want to come back.
> 
> but i will be here then.... and i would like to feel like i can speak to him in an honest way AND have good boundaries for myself.
> 
> i don't want to foreclose R forever but i definitely don't want to go back to square 1 either.
> 
> if you have any reactions to quickly share, that would be great. but i will keep you posted either way.


Start writing down your thoughts, your questions, the things you would like to address. If you write it down and bring it with it may help or write him a letter to give him. This way he can't in.terrupt what you need to say to him. Let us know how it goes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey MattMatt I was on zoloft for my anxiety and it worked pretty good for the first 6 wks and then I was sleepy all the time, but I believe drugs work differently on everyone so maybe it's worth a try for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

wow 104 pages on this thread  and I see more and more people coming here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> Hey MattMatt I was on zoloft for my anxiety and it worked pretty good for the first 6 wks and then I was sleepy all the time, but I believe drugs work differently on everyone so maybe it's worth a try for him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cheese. some good quality artisan cheese and some homebrew beer or wine with some fresh bakery bread and unsalted butter.

That works, too. Especially if you share it with your wife or husband.:smthumbup:

Just drinking some homemade wine. First I ever made, though I did used to make cider, years ago.


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## margrace

_It is an ongoing choice every day. You have to choose every day to keep moving forward and to keep loving one another ... We love each one another, we need one another, we comfort one another, yet we hurt one another, as well. But, we decided that we can do this.... at least for today. _

yes -- it's a process, not a place! and i treasure your commitment to the process, EI and B1. sending hugs!


----------



## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> Start writing down your thoughts, your questions, the things you would like to address. If you write it down and bring it with it may help or write him a letter to give him. This way he can't in.terrupt what you need to say to him. Let us know how it goes
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


good idea, thank you -- yes, i don't want to slip away from myself! thanks, css.


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## margrace

calvin said:


> marg,can you get him on Tams? It opened up CSS's eyes a lot
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i wish. i'm going to try again on that. and on MC!


----------



## joe kidd

Lets see...4 mos in I was constantly angry and drunk. 
Just finishing up a revenge EA.
Ready to wash my hands of the whole thing.


----------



## SomedayDig

CantSitStill said:


> Hmm wondering if something like Paxil or one of those seratonin drugs would help Calvin.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is an SSRI...whatever the term is, it has to do with seretonin uptake and really helps. I take the smallest dosage of 10mg and it is quite amazing. Have Calvin ask his doc. I know it's tough to do, but when you do it for yourself, it is good. I asked my doc about it and that was SIX months after Dday. Wish I had done it a lot earlier!!



joe kidd said:


> Lets see...4 mos in I was constantly angry and drunk.
> Just finishing up a revenge EA.
> Ready to wash my hands of the whole thing.


I admit to sometimes overdoing the booze a bit. I used it as self medication. I have never been an angry drunk, though. If that means anything. At 4 months, anger has just begun to seep in with true realization. To heal it you gotta feel it.


----------



## joe kidd

I wouldn't start out angry. I found after about the 14th or 15th beer I would start with the anger. I'm about 6' 178lbs. 15 is alot of beer for me.


----------



## B1

Thanks everyone for your post and support regarding my anger towards EI. I was obsessing about words being said just the right way and of course the sex. Well you know what, EI said what I needed to hear today. I am letting go of this obsessiveness, this fascination with saying all the right things. Why? because EI is more important than what some book says or even what TAM says in general. Every time I hear what I want, then I just want something else? it was a never ending loop, I was stuck and EI was a mess because of it, guess I was too.

I know this isn't making a lot of sense because I am keeping it private between me and EI, but we had a huge breakthrough tonight and I feel like a thousands pounds has been lifted off my chest. My stomach isn't in knots right now and I feel a true sense of relief. I was absolutely torturing EI, and myself, with an issue and it's done now, $hit canned that thing big time tonight.

As the saying goes...Oh what a relief it is


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> some of you will remember that i had thought of myself as working on R -- but my WH steadfastly refused to acknowledge/discuss any infidelities beyond one. i know that there were several others over the past couple of years, with one OW still there at his workplace now. he did not really deny -- his position was that i was asking for "details" simply to humiliate him.
> 
> you gently helped me accept some things that should have been obvious: that i can't do all the work of R all by myself, and that wanting to know the truth about what happened is not too much to ask.
> 
> so earlier this week, i asked him again for honesty, and when he redrew the same line in the sand, i asked him to leave. he chose leaving over honesty.
> 
> thank you again. (((you))) helped me do this -- i told my IC this today. your presence out there somewhere is such a gift
> 
> WH has just emailed me, suggesting that he would like to come over tomorrow and talk. actually what he wrote is that if i would like to meet and talk, tomorrow afternoon would work.
> 
> he will have been gone for 3 days at that point. i have been a mess since then, but i'm holding it together.
> 
> given that he has worded this as something that _i _might like to do, it doesn't feel like to me he is going to be contrite and/or want to come back.
> 
> but i will be here then.... and i would like to feel like i can speak to him in an honest way AND have good boundaries for myself.
> 
> i don't want to foreclose R forever but i definitely don't want to go back to square 1 either.
> 
> if you have any reactions to quickly share, that would be great. but i will keep you posted either way.


Keep your boundaries, NO going back to square one, that's not where you want to be. Let it play out and see what he has to say. Trust your gut here, a woman's intuition is nothing to mess with, this I have learned. 

..and I like what CSS mentioned, write down your questions, thoughts and use that list.

Keep us posted, thoughts and prayers you way!


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> It is an SSRI...whatever the term is, it has to do with seretonin uptake and really helps. I take the smallest dosage of 10mg and it is quite amazing. Have Calvin ask his doc. I know it's tough to do, but when you do it for yourself, it is good. I asked my doc about it and that was SIX months after Dday. Wish I had done it a lot earlier!!
> 
> 
> 
> I admit to sometimes overdoing the booze a bit. I used it as self medication. I have never been an angry drunk, though. If that means anything. At 4 months, anger has just begun to seep in with true realization. To heal it you gotta feel it.


Obsessing was my problem, my anger was from obsessive thinking. I was driving myself crazy.
I can honestly say anger, overall, has not been a major problem for me and I still don't expect it to be.... Maybe I am being naive though? not sure.


----------



## EI

Hey guys,

Sheeeesh....... Last night + today = exhausting! Terrible argument with B1 last night, followed by EI sleeping on the couch.... big, ugly trigger for B1, since EI slept on the couch for about 1 1/2 years prior to and during my affair. Add to that, the most intense counseling sessions, ever, and tonight.... well, tonight all I wanted when I got home from my errands was to be in B1's arms. In all of my 48 years, I never understood the quote "The course of true love never did run smooth" quite as intimately as I do now. When I got home B1 and I still had more talking to do, more tears to shed and more angry words to be spoken.... then, as has been the case with B1 and me since D-Day.... we stopped feeling our own pain long enough to see the pain in the eyes of the other. Once again, we acknowledged how we had each hurt the other, let the other one down and in turn let ourselves down. But, tonight, we found even more compassion and forgiveness in our hearts for the other than we had ever felt or expressed before. Tonight, we acknowledged that while we, both, have let the other down, at times, that we're imperfect humans and sometimes you do the best you can.... and it's not enough.... it falls short, yet, it was all you had to give at the time. And, when you come to that realization, you have only two options. You can play the blame, shame, finger-pointing game or you can choose to love your imperfect spouse in spite of their imperfections and forgive them.... you can grant them absolution.

B1, I love you, very, very much. I am so sorry that I hurt you. I'm sorry that I hurt our children. I hate what I did. I _haaaaaate_ it. It was wrong. I do know that. I can't undo it. I was so broken inside, at the time, so sad, so lonely, so empty. I wish that I hadn't been so weak. I wish that I had found the strength to make a different choice. But, I didn't. Please forgive me. I am sooooooo sorry. I don't want to be the person that I had become. I love you! <3


----------



## B1

_*B1*, I love you, very, very much._

For those of you that caught the little slip here, that wasn't my real name she used it was a...Uh? well, nickname, yeah that's it, a nickname. Nope, It wasn't my real name EI used, my real name is nothing like that 

btw my response to her asking for forgiveness is here


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> yes -- it's a process, not a place! and i treasure your commitment to the process, EI and B1. sending hugs!


Margrace, I do have some suggestions for your meeting with your husband, but I am exhausted tonight. I'll type them up in the morning. But, most of all, please be strong. If your husband is looking out for your husband and you are looking out for your husband, then who is looking out for Margrace? Right now, he should be less concerned about what he needs and more concerned about what you need. If he isn't in that frame of mind, now, then he probably never will be. Read up on the 180. I think it will do you a world of good.

Thank you for always sending us your positive affirmations. It means more to me than you know.

I'll keep you in my prayers, tonight, and ask for you to have strength, courage and wisdom. We'll be here for you. <3


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> *It is an SSRI.*..whatever the term is, it has to do with seretonin uptake and really helps. I take the smallest dosage of 10mg and it is quite amazing. Have Calvin ask his doc. I know it's tough to do, but when you do it for yourself, it is good. I asked my doc about it and that was SIX months after Dday. Wish I had done it a lot earlier!!
> 
> 
> 
> I admit to sometimes overdoing the booze a bit. I used it as self medication. I have never been an angry drunk, though. If that means anything. At 4 months, anger has just begun to seep in with true realization. To heal it you gotta feel it.


On Dday, I was already on a SSRI, called Remeron, and I also take a so called booster anti-depressant called abilify, without abilify I go into a DEEP DEEP dark hole, it's truly awful. Perhaps this has helped me cope more than usual and kept me from being angry, and so incredibly depressed?

I am more hurt than anything, that feeling overrides all others.


----------



## EI

B1, I'm coming in the bedroom now and I'm going to sit in your lap and you're gonna hold me, okay? 

~EI


----------



## joe kidd

No pills,,,just booze. I would change my mind hour to hour. Up and down. Things would have different with out the beer. The worst part was my EA. I rubbed it in her face. She begged me for another chance and I would just walk away.


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> No pills,,,just booze. I would change my mind hour to hour. Up and down. Things would have different with out the beer. The worst part was my EA. I rubbed it in her face. She begged me for another chance and I would just walk away.


Kidd...I'm a whiskey guy. JD or the Knot (Irish Whiskey only available in New England). I hate to say it, but I can drink like no other....


----------



## pidge70

SomedayDig said:


> Kidd...I'm a whiskey guy. JD or the Knot (Irish Whiskey only available in New England). I hate to say it, but I can drink like no other....


When I first met Joe he was drinking so much whiskey he was p!ssing blood. Sorry for the TMI. His whiskey days have been over for a very long time now.


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> Kidd...I'm a whiskey guy. JD or the Knot (Irish Whiskey only available in New England). I hate to say it, but I can drink like no other....


I used to be. LOL Stopped long ago.


----------



## bfree

I know this is not my thread but I'm hoping I can ask a question. You all are in various stages of R but all of you, both WS and BS seem to be very cognizant of your thoughts and actions as well as those around you. So I'm hoping to get some advice.

My 1st wife cheated on me. I reacted like a typical doormat and wussy begging and pleading. It was not pretty. We divorced after I discovered she was having a second affair while still involved with the 1st OM. Anyway, I remarried and my wife is a wonderful amazing woman. We did go through some difficulties but I'm trying to be more of a leader and upping my alpha (I hate using those labels). Here's the thing. She has never once given me cause to not trust her. But every now and then something happens that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Of course it always turns out to be nothing but it still keeps happening.

For instance, a week ago I was on my way to work when I got a text from her. All it said was "Yeah, I know." Now I hadn't texted her so I was like WTF. So I sent her a text asking what she meant. She didn't know what I was talking about and said she hadn't sent a text. Of course now I'm thinking she is texting someone else and sent it to me by mistake. Then I think well why couldn't she just tell me that. Then I think it must be because its someone she doesn't want me to know she is talking to. Then I think, maybe its another guy. You see where this is going right?

So later that day I ask to see her phone under the guise that something must be wrong with it. I look at her phone and it shows that the text I received that morning was actually part of a conversation we had the day before. For some reason my phone didn't get that particular message until the next morning. There have been other times when something like this happened. Its always something quite innocent but my mind immediately goes to a bad place even though she has never once done anything to make me suspicious. I also know its because of what my 1st wife put me through. But how can I put those thoughts behind me. I've already gone to counseling when I was really down after the divorce but this lack of trust just seems to hang on. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?


----------



## calvin

bfree,
Hang tight.A lot of us have some crap going on right now or some of the people here are out on the town.
You will get help and support here.
Hang in there,anything is possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bfree,

It's everyone's thread..... I was cuddling with B1 when I read your post. I asked him if he thought that he would always be more suspicious because of my infidelity. He said "probably." I asked him if we divorced and he married someone else if he would still be more suspicious/paranoid than if I had never been unfaithful, again he said "probably." I think that blind trust is something that is forever destroyed for someone who has been betrayed by infidelity. At least, that one BS's opinion. Now, coming from a former WS, I can tell you that there was nothing in your post that made any red flags go up for me. And, I read posts all of the time where people give all of these details about their spouse's behavior wondering if they should be worried and I just want to scream that "a blind man could see those red flags from a mile away." Keep your eyes and ears open, but be careful not to project your very understandable fears onto your wife. It's stressful enough as a WS "paying" for my own indiscretion. I probably punish myself more than B1 does. If I'm running errands and get caught up in traffic, caught by a train, or hear my cell phone ringing, but can't dig it out of my purse before it rolls to voicemail, I get highly anxious. I can't imagine having to live under the strain of "paying" for someone else's indiscretion. 

Again, keep your eyes and ears open, but keep your emotions in check. Don't allow your former WW any room in your current marriage. You and your wife, both, deserve better! I hope this helps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Empty it sounds like you guys are forgiving eachother  this makes me so happy for you two. Calvin and I have been having a very intense convo for the past 3 hours about everything throughout our marriage. It hurts but feels good to get our feelings out. It's a process but we are all moving forward and slowly healing every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Empty it sounds like you guys are forgiving eachother  this makes me so happy for you two. Calvin and I have been having a very intense convo for the past 3 hours about everything throughout our marriage. It hurts but feels good to get our feelings out. It's a process but we are all moving forward and slowly healing every day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so glad, CSS, I was just thinking about you. Those long talks can be excruciating but are usually very healing. B1 and I are in a much better place tonight. I wanted to text you, but noticed the time. I'm such a night owl and it blows B1's mind how easily I lose track of time. I'm always telling him, "I'll be there in minute," which could mean 15 minutes or two hours and, sometimes, I don't even realize it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> I'm so glad, CSS, I was just thinking about you. Those long talks can be excruciating but are usually very healing. B1 and I are in a much better place tonight. I wanted to text you, but noticed the time. I'm such a night owl and it blows B1's mind how easily I lose track of time. I'm always telling him, "I'll be there in minute," which could mean 15 minutes or two hours and, sometimes, I don't even realize it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What I don't get is how you still manage to get up early
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

margrace said:


> ... (snip)...
> 
> you gently helped me accept some things that should have been obvious: that i can't do all the work of R all by myself, and that wanting to know the truth about what happened is not too much to ask.
> 
> ... (snip)...
> 
> WH has just emailed me, suggesting that he would like to come over tomorrow and talk. actually what he wrote is that if i would like to meet and talk, tomorrow afternoon would work.
> 
> ...(snip)...
> 
> but i will be here then.... and i would like to feel like i can speak to him in an honest way AND have good boundaries for myself. i don't want to foreclose R forever but i definitely don't want to go back to square 1 either. if you have any reactions to quickly share, that would be great. but i will keep you posted either way.


I believe I would keep it as simple as possible. When a loyal spouse has asked their disloyal to either end the affair or move out, I usually suggest that the loyal initiate no contact, and when the disloyal tries to call and text and email (and stuff) to just repeat something like this: 

_"Oh are you calling because you're willing to end your affair and give 100% of your affection and loyalty to only me? You're not? Oh okay then goodbye!" and hang up. That way after hearing it 15 times or so the disloyal may think something like "Do you mean to tell me that I have to end my affair forever, and give every little bit of my affection and loyalty to you?" _ 

See how that's simple and kind of down to two things that they (the disloyal) are free to choose to do or not do?

Anyway in your instance I would try to see if you can narrow it down to maybe a couple hills you're willing to die on--or in other words, things that you would require to consider reconciling. Due to the betrayal there are several things that have been done and said that at some point will need to be addressed and dealt with...however they might not be "hills to die on." As an example, in my first marriage (where I was the loyal spouse and my exH was the disloyal) I needed 3 things to consider reconciliation: 

1. I needed him to face and deal with his medical issues (he had an illness and was pretending he didn't and continuing to do things that made him ill). 
2. I needed him to face and deal with his anger issues (he was physically, verbally and emotionally abusive) which were a part of his diagnosed mental illness (which he also would not go to counseling or deal with).
3. I needed him to face and deal with his serial cheating. Long story short, I believe a portion of it was his mental illness which he refused to acknowledge but I lost count when I found 13 OW, and could not take any more. 

Naturally he became my exH so his decision was to continue to ignore all three. To this day, his idea of "dealing with it" is to take a prescription for #1 and another for his mental illness...and I guess he thinks those cure him! 

My point though is to have it down to one, two or maybe three things and be able to say "Sure let me tell you what I need in order to consider reconciliation. You are completely free to decide for yourself. I need: a) b) and c)" Then if he is  and starts to do that "YOU are doing this and YOU are destroying our marriage" malarkey...well you saw through it before. 

You are an individual IN the marriage, PART of the marriage, just as much as he is with JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to determine what you need in order to stay in the marriage!! If he can decide to NOT do a) b) and c) that's cool--that's his choice. And if that is what he chooses, then you can decide to not reconcile! It's just that easy.


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## calvin

bfree,
Being betrayed is not your fault.The WS had other options other than doing that.
Problems in the marriage are pretty much always 50/50.
As you can see from the couples here,reconciliation is very possible but it does depend on the couple.
Its mostley depends on the WS in my view.
Follow the people on here who are in a true R and you will get a lot of insight as to what to do.
I feel that just about all here will make it.
Buckle up.Youre in for one hell of a ride.
It can be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It's possible to R but it is work yet so worth it if you can make your marriage stronger. I must remember to never take Calvin for granted..ever. I'm sure he feels the same. I just hope some day he can really see how much I really love him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

CantSitStill said:


> It's possible to R but it is work yet so worth it if you can make your marriage stronger. I must remember to never take Calvin for granted..ever. I'm sure he feels the same. I just hope some day he can really see how much I really love him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So very true, CCS. The fact is that I took all the love, support, and trust that Dig gave for granted. Having this understanding has been a key to R for us. I now appreciate all that he is and all that he has to offer. It is realizing that he is all I want and need.

I, too, hope that he will know just how much I love him. I feel sometimes that he hears my words as being empty. I don't blame him, but I just keep telling him and showing him how much he means to me and plan on loving him as I do today...every day until forever!


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Empty it sounds like you guys are forgiving eachother  this makes me so happy for you two. Calvin and I have been having a very intense convo for the past 3 hours about everything throughout our marriage. It hurts but feels good to get our feelings out. It's a process but we are all moving forward and slowly healing every day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, Yes, that's correct. I wasn't even going to mention it here because I know most everyone will disagree and think it's to early. And that's perfectly ok with me. But I have learned a thing or two about forgiveness, it's a process, a journey also, much like reconciliation. As a mater of fat It's part of reconciliation.

I chose, last night to open back up, I chose to be vulnerable all over again, I chose to let go, I chose to trust again, I chose to forgive EI.

This does NOT mean I will no longer hurt, it doesn't mean mind movies will cease, it doesn't mean I will be over this. It simply means, to me, that I forgive her, I will no longer hold things over her head, I will remove her from the vice grip I had her in.
It means I will let certain things go. I will no longer obsess about her saying just the right things, in other words, I will no longer demand payment for her wrong. 
It means I love her, I am certain OUR R is going in the right direction, I am certain of our commitment, I am certain we will make it, I am certain EI will NEVER again do this to me. I am certain she loves me and wants the best for me.

EI said some things last night that really hit home, she went on a rant for about 30 minutes over all she did and how she feels on the inside. This is something you cannot put into words, you had to be here to see her pain, her broken heart, her overall brokenness.

I saw her pain, her anguish over the affair. She said, with tears flowing and clinched teeth, face beat red, "I HATE WHAT I DID..I HATE IT" I realized something then, she hates herself in a way. She loathes her choice, it is eating her up inside. So, I am going to stop eating her up outside, or do my best to stop that.
She has said sorry over and over, she NEVER tires of saying it to me. Se knows she was wrong and chose something awful. She has used all the words necessary and then some and now, That's enough for me. No more requirements!

Forgiving her felt good, it felt right. 

I know many of you will disagree with this, but there is NO template for this, no timeline to follow, no guide to follow. You have to follow your own heart, your logic, your gut. Everyone of them told me to just forgive EI, I kept hearing in my head...."let it go B1, just let it go. She is sorry for her wrong, just forgive."

So, here I am, a new day, same journey though, but, we just turned a corner. I'll take it  

Thank you all for listening to this bunch of rambling...I hope I made some sense.


----------



## B1

bfree said:


> I know this is not my thread but I'm hoping I can ask a question. You all are in various stages of R but all of you, both WS and BS seem to be very cognizant of your thoughts and actions as well as those around you. So I'm hoping to get some advice.
> 
> My 1st wife cheated on me. I reacted like a typical doormat and wussy begging and pleading. It was not pretty. We divorced after I discovered she was having a second affair while still involved with the 1st OM. Anyway, I remarried and my wife is a wonderful amazing woman. We did go through some difficulties but I'm trying to be more of a leader and upping my alpha (I hate using those labels). Here's the thing. She has never once given me cause to not trust her. But every now and then something happens that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Of course it always turns out to be nothing but it still keeps happening.
> 
> For instance, a week ago I was on my way to work when I got a text from her. All it said was "Yeah, I know." Now I hadn't texted her so I was like WTF. So I sent her a text asking what she meant. She didn't know what I was talking about and said she hadn't sent a text. Of course now I'm thinking she is texting someone else and sent it to me by mistake. Then I think well why couldn't she just tell me that. Then I think it must be because its someone she doesn't want me to know she is talking to. Then I think, maybe its another guy. You see where this is going right?
> 
> So later that day I ask to see her phone under the guise that something must be wrong with it. I look at her phone and it shows that the text I received that morning was actually part of a conversation we had the day before. For some reason my phone didn't get that particular message until the next morning. There have been other times when something like this happened. Its always something quite innocent but my mind immediately goes to a bad place even though she has never once done anything to make me suspicious. I also know its because of what my 1st wife put me through. But how can I put those thoughts behind me. I've already gone to counseling when I was really down after the divorce but this lack of trust just seems to hang on. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?


bfree...NOT your thread? sure it is, it's everyone's thread. So glad you posted. You ask a VERY good question.

btw before I get started i have had that texting thing happen to me also.

Like EI, I don't really see a red flag here at all. One thing right off the bat, she gave you her phone, no questions asked..When our WW are in an affair they would never give up there phone!

Now, on with the trusting thing. I think it's perfectly normal to still jump the gun a little and go into suspicious mode after going through what we went through. I am not sure that will ever be different. I hope so though, I really do but if not, that's ok too, I can live with that.

I know I trust EI about 90% now, but if I got a strange text like that, sure, I would ask, I would want some validation. Before the affair, I would not have thought a thing about it, but I should have, if you know what I mean. Guess that's what gets us. 

If this is a heavy burden perhaps you should talk to her about it, explain it to her. If she loves you the way I think she does, she should understand and actually help you with it. No, it's not her fault, but she is your wife, she loves you and wants the best for you. If you are having trouble with something who else better to talk about it with than your wife. 

What would you do if the tables were turned and she was having trust issues with you, would you be angry and defensive, or would you maybe understand her hurt and reasons and try to help her with them.

take care bfree hope your weekend is a great one!


----------



## margrace

Affaircare said:


> I believe I would keep it as simple as possible. When a loyal spouse has asked their disloyal to either end the affair or move out, I usually suggest that the loyal initiate no contact, and when the disloyal tries to call and text and email (and stuff) to just repeat something like this:
> 
> _"Oh are you calling because you're willing to end your affair and give 100% of your affection and loyalty to only me? You're not? Oh okay then goodbye!" and hang up. That way after hearing it 15 times or so the disloyal may think something like "Do you mean to tell me that I have to end my affair forever, and give every little bit of my affection and loyalty to you?" _
> 
> See how that's simple and kind of down to two things that they (the disloyal) are free to choose to do or not do?
> 
> Anyway in your instance I would try to see if you can narrow it down to maybe a couple hills you're willing to die on--or in other words, things that you would require to consider reconciling. Due to the betrayal there are several things that have been done and said that at some point will need to be addressed and dealt with...however they might not be "hills to die on." ...My point though is to have it down to one, two or maybe three things and be able to say "Sure let me tell you what I need in order to consider reconciliation. You are completely free to decide for yourself. I need: a) b) and c)" Then if he is  and starts to do that "YOU are doing this and YOU are destroying our marriage" malarkey...well you saw through it before.
> 
> You are an individual IN the marriage, PART of the marriage, just as much as he is with JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to determine what you need in order to stay in the marriage!! If he can decide to NOT do a) b) and c) that's cool--that's his choice. And if that is what he chooses, then you can decide to not reconcile! It's just that easy.


thanks, AC. i think my three hills are:

1) a two-way street of 100% honesty and transparency. right now, i'm the only one on that street 

2) no contact of any kind with any of the OWs

3) marriage counseling to begin ASAP

although i have been a sad teary raggedy mess since asking him to leave, i have also gained a lot of clarity, which i needed.

if he can't accede to these three bottom lines, i know what i will do. i will lean on my friends. i've never been good at letting people in when i need help, but i'm going to let people in now. i will get my health back. and i will re-commit to the high level of performance and enthusiasm and joy that have characterized my personal and professional life before all this.

i will never stop being grateful for the support and guidance that i am receiving here. i recognize how obvious my three hills sound  but i had to do this my way, at my own pace. all of you have affirmed me in that process while gently supplying some reality-testing along the way.


----------



## bfree

betrayed1 said:


> CSS, Yes, that's correct. I wasn't even going to mention it here because I know most everyone will disagree and think it's to early. And that's perfectly ok with me. But I have learned a thing or two about forgiveness, it's a process, a journey also, much like reconciliation. As a mater of fat It's part of reconciliation.
> 
> I chose, last night to open back up, I chose to be vulnerable all over again, I chose to let go, I chose to trust again, I chose to forgive EI.
> 
> This does NOT mean I will no longer hurt, it doesn't mean mind movies will cease, it doesn't mean I will be over this. It simply means, to me, that I forgive her, I will no longer hold things over her head, I will remove her from the vice grip I had her in.
> It means I will let certain things go. I will no longer obsess about her saying just the right things, in other words, I will no longer demand payment for her wrong.
> It means I love her, I am certain OUR R is going in the right direction, I am certain of our commitment, I am certain we will make it, I am certain EI will NEVER again do this to me. I am certain she loves me and wants the best for me.
> 
> EI said some things last night that really hit home, she went on a rant for about 30 minutes over all she did and how she feels on the inside. This is something you cannot put into words, you had to be here to see her pain, her broken heart, her overall brokenness.
> 
> I saw her pain, her anguish over the affair. She said, with tears flowing and clinched teeth, face beat red, "I HATE WHAT I DID..I HATE IT" I realized something then, she hates herself in a way. She loathes her choice, it is eating her up inside. So, I am going to stop eating her up outside, or do my best to stop that.
> She has said sorry over and over, she NEVER tires of saying it to me. Se knows she was wrong and chose something awful. She has used all the words necessary and then some and now, That's enough for me. No more requirements!
> 
> Forgiving her felt good, it felt right.
> 
> I know many of you will disagree with this, but there is NO template for this, no timeline to follow, no guide to follow. You have to follow your own heart, your logic, your gut. Everyone of them told me to just forgive EI, I kept hearing in my head...."let it go B1, just let it go. She is sorry for her wrong, just forgive."
> 
> So, here I am, a new day, same journey though, but, we just turned a corner. I'll take it
> 
> Thank you all for listening to this bunch of rambling...I hope I made some sense.


Your post just hit me hard. In another thread I suggested a book on forgiveness that I had once read to another poster. But after reading your post I don't think I have ever forgiven my ex for what she did to me. And maybe that is what is causing me to project those mistrustful thought on my wife. I need to think about this some more.


----------



## bfree

margrace said:


> thanks, AC. i think my three hills are:
> 
> 1) a two-way street of 100% honesty and transparency. right now, i'm the only one on that street
> 
> 2) no contact of any kind with any of the OWs
> 
> 3) marriage counseling to begin ASAP
> 
> although i have been a sad teary raggedy mess since asking him to leave, i have also gained a lot of clarity, which i needed.
> 
> if he can't accede to these three bottom lines, i know what i will do. i will lean on my friends. i've never been good at letting people in when i need help, but i'm going to let people in now. i will get my health back. and i will re-commit to the high level of performance and enthusiasm and joy that have characterized my personal and professional life before all this.
> 
> i will never stop being grateful for the support and guidance that i am receiving here. i recognize how obvious my three hills sound  but i had to do this my way, at my own pace. all of you have affirmed me in that process while gently supplying some reality-testing along the way.


I know maybe I'm not the best person to give advice but one thing I do know. The stronger and more self assured you are the more attractive you are and the more respected you will be. Nobody likes a doormat or a pushover. Everyone respects strength. Like AC said, you are part of the marriage. Make your part the strongest you can and if your husband follows your lead you may end up with a fantastic marriage. If he chooses otherwise you will still be strong, attractive and well respected. Either way you are better off.


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> What I don't get is how you still manage to get up early
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Therein lies the hard part. I *have* to get up early to get all of my men (B1, and two of our sons) out the door in the mornings. I am not, by nature, a morning person, but I have no choice. But, no matter how tired I am in the mornings..... come about 11:00 p.m. when B1 is about to fall over, or already has, I'm wide awake and ready to go. I think with having all of these kids, I was always afraid to sleep at night because that's when they get away with so much. When they were teens (the youngest still is) and they were out with friends or dates and even working the night shift, I couldn't sleep until they came home and all of the doors were locked and everyone was "safe" in bed. Our only girl is the oldest. Those were the years that B1 didn't get any sleep.... but she has been married for 6 years, now, so he sleeps. He couldn't have survived more than one daughter.  LOL


----------



## margrace

bfree said:


> I know maybe I'm not the best person to give advice but one thing I do know. The stronger and more self assured you are the more attractive you are and the more respected you will be. Nobody likes a doormat or a pushover. Everyone respects strength. Like AC said, you are part of the marriage. Make your part the strongest you can and if your husband follows your lead you may end up with a fantastic marriage. If he chooses otherwise you will still be strong, attractive and well respected. Either way you are better off.


bfree, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. i want to echo others in saying that your contributions to these discussions are valuable! i'm grateful for your input.


----------



## B1

bfree said:


> Your post just hit me hard. In another thread I suggested a book on forgiveness that I had once read to another poster. But after reading your post I don't think I have ever forgiven my ex for what she did to me. And maybe that is what is causing me to project those mistrustful thought on my wife. I need to think about this some more.


Something I read about forgiveness for someone in your situation:

_"Forgiveness is not about pardoning. It is about our inner emotional release. Forgiveness is not condoning. We do not have to accept someone else’s behavior in order to forgive. Forgiveness is not reconciliation. We can forgive someone, but it does not mean we have to reconcile. On a very practical level forgiveness is about lessening your own emotional burdens and healing the pain of your heart. Forgiveness is not about letting someone off the hook. It is about your own inner healing."_

Link to the whole article is HERE


----------



## calvin

Morning...Afternoon?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> So later that day I ask to see her phone under the guise that something must be wrong with it. I look at her phone and it shows that the text I received that morning was actually part of a conversation we had the day before. For some reason my phone didn't get that particular message until the next morning. There have been other times when something like this happened.


Just a couple of thoughts...........

One thing that really stands out is that she handed the phone over to you without hesitation, right? You would have mentioned it if she hadn't. The phone is the first and easiest "red flag" to spot. People having affairs guard their cellphones like Ft. Knox. That's a given......... I just don't think your wife is having an affair. 

A couple of months ago, B1 had typed up a lengthy text message to me from his cellphone. He works on a military base and data doesn't always get through. I never received his text.... he had asked me about it. The next night, we were out on our weekend date (we do that regularly, now) and my phone beeped and when I checked it I had received his message 1 1/2 days later. So, depending on where your wife was when she sent that one line of text, it could have just gotten "hung up" in cyberspace and came through later.


----------



## bfree

betrayed1 said:


> Something I read about forgiveness for someone in your situation:
> 
> _"Forgiveness is not about pardoning. It is about our inner emotional release. Forgiveness is not condoning. We do not have to accept someone else’s behavior in order to forgive. Forgiveness is not reconciliation. We can forgive someone, but it does not mean we have to reconcile. On a very practical level forgiveness is about lessening your own emotional burdens and healing the pain of your heart. Forgiveness is not about letting someone off the hook. It is about your own inner healing."_
> 
> Link to the whole article is HERE


Thanks B1. I'll definitely check it out. My ex did so many things to really screw with my head. I thought after the divorce that not caring about her anymore would make it go away but I'm beginning to think I never got over it. I think you all that are working on R are so much better off than people like me. In fact I know you are better off. At least when you are dealing with issues you have someone to talk them over with and comfort you. I had nobody. Well nobody that really could help me to truly put it behind me. I never got an answer as to why, how, when, how often. She never even tried. All those questions that can nag at you. And then she was so cold about how it ended blaming me for not being man enough to keep her. Looking back I should have worked harder to take time to heal. Then when I got remarried I didn't want to put all that baggage on my wife so I held it all in. Maybe its time to start dealing with it better.


----------



## bfree

Empty Inside said:


> Just a couple of thoughts...........
> 
> One thing that really stands out is that she handed the phone over to you without hesitation, right? You would have mentioned it if she hadn't. The phone is the first and easiest "red flag" to spot. People having affairs guard their cellphones like Ft. Knox. That's a given......... I just don't think your wife is having an affair.
> 
> A couple of months ago, B1 had typed up a lengthy text message to me from his cellphone. He works on a military base and data doesn't always get through. I never received his text.... he had asked me about it. The next night, we were out on our weekend date (we do that regularly, now) and my phone beeped and when I checked it I had received his message 1 1/2 days later. So, depending on where your wife was when she sent that one line of text, it could have just gotten "hung up" in cyberspace and came through later.


EI, she is never secretive about anything. Her phone is always open to me as is her computer. I know that she was not doing anything wrong when I saw the text she sent was actually part of a conversation we had already had. It was just a technology blip. But I immediately went to a bad place in my mind. Another example is about a year ago she was late getting home from work. I yelled at her when she got home and demanded to know where she'd been. She told me her boss had asked to see her after work and that she called and left a message that she'd be late. (By the way, her boss is an older married lady so no worries there) I told her she never left me a message. But then I checked our voicemail and she had indeed left one. Our phone usually beeps when there is a new message and it didn't for some reason that time. So I never checked the messages. She hadn't done anything wrong yet I went to that place again. I apologized and we put it behind us. After that I learned not to overreact until I was sure about my "facts."


----------



## SomedayDig

Regret214 said:


> So very true, CCS. The fact is that I took all the love, support, and trust that Dig gave for granted. Having this understanding has been a key to R for us. I now appreciate all that he is and all that he has to offer. It is realizing that he is all I want and need.
> 
> I, too, hope that he will know just how much I love him. I feel sometimes that he hears my words as being empty. I don't blame him, but I just keep telling him and showing him how much he means to me and plan on loving him as I do today...every day until forever!


I hear you Babe. Sometimes it isn't easy. But I do hear you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> thanks, AC. i think my three hills are:
> 
> *1) a two-way street of 100% honesty and transparency. right now, i'm the only one on that street
> 
> 2) no contact of any kind with any of the OWs
> 
> 3) marriage counseling to begin ASAP*


First of all, I think your three "hills" are perfect. They are clear and concise and 100% reasonable and necessary. If he doesn't agree to these immediately and without any hesitation then the conversation is over.... *done.*... you walk away without saying one word about any future conversations. Let him chase you, call you, text you, let *him* worry about *you*.



margrace said:


> although i have been a sad teary raggedy mess since asking him to leave, i have also gained a lot of clarity, which i needed.
> 
> *if he can't accede to these three bottom lines, i know what i will do. i will lean on my friends. i've never been good at letting people in when i need help, but i'm going to let people in now. i will get my health back. and i will re-commit to the high level of performance and enthusiasm and joy that have characterized my personal and professional life before all this.*


Even if he does accede to these three bottom lines you will *still* lean on your friends and let people in when you need help. You will *still* take care of your health and you will *still* re-commit to the high level of performance and enthusiasm and joy that have characterized your personal and professional life before all of this. Actually, that is all a part of the 180... whether you realize it or not.... taking care of yourself, getting on with your life... and though it isn't the reason you should be doing it, it will give your husband something to think about. He will see/remember all of the positive attributes about you that, likely, drew him to you in the first place. But, you aren't doing this for him.... it's for you. I used to be the same way. I never asked for help and I even refused it when offered. I thought that I was supposed to "do it all" or risk being seen as a failure. This was when I was a full-time care-giver for a mother with heart disease who was in and out of the hospital constantly, a father with heart disease, diabetes, and Alzheimer's, (my parents lived with us) 5 young children, one who has special needs, is wheelchair bound and in diapers, and B1 was traveling on his job about 40% of the time... sometimes he was gone up to two weeks at a time. This was several years ago. I did it all, too.... until I couldn't anymore. I ended up in therapy.... on loads of meds and just about lost my mind....... Not reaching out for help and refusing genuine, heartfelt offers of help from our close friends and our church community was the beginning of my downward spiral. I'm still recovering from it all, today. I didn't have to make things so hard on myself.[/QUOTE]



margrace said:


> i will never stop being grateful for the support and guidance that i am receiving here. i recognize how obvious my three hills sound  but i had to do this my way, at my own pace. all of you have affirmed me in that process while gently supplying some reality-testing along the way.


That's what we are all here for. Finding our way, at our own pace and supporting one another along the way.

I don't think there is a lot more advice to offer. You seem to know exactly what you need to do. The only thing that I can say is that, this is all easier to say than it is to do. So, be strong, don't allow him to manipulate you, or shift the blame onto you for refusing to cave into his demands or to his lines in the sand, that only serve to to make his life easier. I suggest that you start off saying nothing.... let him talk... since he suggested the meeting. When he starts talking, ask yourself... what is he offering me, what is in this for me? If the answer is nothing.... walk away. It will hurt.... but your friends in real life and on TAM will be here for you. You deserve better than what he has offered up so far. Do not settle for less than what you need and deserve, now, or you will be settling for the rest of your life.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Thanks B1. I'll definitely check it out. My ex did so many things to really screw with my head. I thought after the divorce that not caring about her anymore would make it go away but I'm beginning to think I never got over it. I think you all that are working on R are so much better off than people like me. In fact I know you are better off. At least when you are dealing with issues you have someone to talk them over with and comfort you. I had nobody. Well nobody that really could help me to truly put it behind me. *I never got an answer as to why, how, when, how often. She never even tried. All those questions that can nag at you. And then she was so cold about how it ended blaming me for not being man enough to keep her. Looking back I should have worked harder to take time to heal. *Then when I got remarried I didn't want to put all that baggage on my wife so I held it all in. Maybe its time to start dealing with it better.


That's the key... right there. She blamed you for not being man enough to keep her. But the truth is, she wasn't "woman enough" (I really wanted to say something meaner, but I won't) to communicate her needs, wants, desires (whatever) to you before she cheated and then when she did.... she blamed you, didn't work on fixing what was wrong with her, and offered nothing to help you begin to heal so that you could even start to think about the possibility of reconciling. Not every broken marriage can or should be reconciled. You will likely never understand the reasons why, how, when, how often, etc., because your ex-wife was too selfish to offer the courtesy of honesty to you. She may not have even known the reasons why if she didn't do the needed work on herself after your marriage ended and will, most likely, carry her own baggage into her future relationships. But every individual has to come to a place of reconciliation within themselves before they can heal and move forward. Otherwise, the risk is too great that all of that unresolved pain, uncertainty, fear, doubts, etc., will follow you for the rest of your life..... into your future relationships with significant others, family, friends, co-workers, everyone. It can affect your job, your health, your overall happiness. 

bfree, you need to reconcile this within yourself. You won't get help from your ex-wife. It would have been nice, but it isn't necessary. Talk to a counselor, if you haven't, read, educate yourself. But, don't allow this to affect your relationship with your current wife for one day longer. Marriage is difficult enough, under the best of circumstances. You've already begun to take the steps to make yourself a stronger, more confident, more in charge and in control man.... you said that your wife has noticed..... that's great. Keep this up... you're on your way!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Morning...Afternoon?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Afternoon, Calvin!

When y'all comin' down to Kentucky? B1 and I will buy you dinner. Of course, depending on how close it is to B1's payday it might just be at White Castle!!! LOL


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## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Afternoon, Calvin!
> 
> When y'all comin' down to Kentucky? B1 and I will buy you dinner. Of course, depending on how close it is to B1's payday it might just be at White Castle!!! LOL


I wont be hungry but if I was I'd eat $ 100 worth of food so just send a check please. 
I have to push the trip back till after the New Year it looks like,unless I get a nice bonus.
Can you send me some home made buscuts and gravy?........Please!!!! I'm begging.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Y'all know that sick feeling you get when your 22 y/o son moves out because you've had an affair and he is mad at you and you feel terrible and you cry and cry and cry and you tell him that you're so sorry but that you wish that he wouldn't move out right now because you don't think he is ready to be on his own, financially, so would he please stay but he moves out anyway and then 3 1/2 months later he realizes that you were right that he wasn't ready to be on his own financially so then he moves back home and brings 3 1/2 months worth of dirty laundry including all of his sheets, comforters, and pillows and you have to wash it all??????????????? 

No, I didn't really think anyone else would know that feeling! 

The moral of this little story is:

*DO NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR!* :scratchhead:


_P.S. The run-on sentence and lack of punctuation were intentional..... I thought it, accurately, expressed how I felt. But, a comma or two found their way in the sentence, anyway, because I have an unhealthy addiction to commas! _


----------



## Acabado

I remember the blow.
As it's obvious you love to have your son back I just want to congratulate. I'm sure the dirty laundry is not a punishment. 
How are things between you and him, EI? Are you patching up? How does he feel about B1 staying? How about the rest?


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I wont be hungry but if I was I'd eat $ 100 worth of food so just send a check please.
> I have to push the trip back till after the New Year it looks like,unless I get a nice bonus.
> Can you send me some home made buscuts and gravy?........Please!!!! I'm begging.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I make very good biscuits and gravy. The biscuits are canned but my sausage gravy is homemade! Have you ever had SOS? My Dad used to make it. I make it, occasionally,..... it's good for breakfast or dinner. 

Anyone know what SOS stands for? I guess it depends on whether or not there are any Army guys or brats reading this thread! 

I'm waiting for an answer.................


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## calvin

Sh!t on a shingle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> I make very good biscuits and gravy. The biscuits are canned but my sausage gravy is homemade! Have you ever had SOS? My Dad used to make it. I make it, occasionally,..... it's good for breakfast or dinner.
> 
> Anyone know what SOS stands for? I guess it depends on whether or not there are any Army guys or brats reading this thread!
> 
> I'm waiting for an answer.................


Yes I would love some homemade biscuits and gravy! I tried to make it with the sausage and honestly mine tastes like sjit lol..I'm not good at hommade gravy..btw love sjit on a shingle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

btw yes it sucks with the kids knowing what I did..they hated me and would not speak to me..ugg can't talk about it. It makes me so teary eyed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> I remember the blow.
> As it's obvious you love to have your son back I just want to congratulate. I'm sure the dirty laundry is not a punishment.
> How are things between you and him, EI? Are you patching up? How does he feel about B1 staying? How about the rest?


Thanks for asking, Acabado! My 22 y/o son, my firstborn child, and I are just wonderful.  After about 3 days of silence he sent me a text telling me that he loved me and that he needed his mom and that he was tired of being mad at me. This was all before he, actually, moved out, LOL, but he had committed to some friends to renting a room from them so he followed through with it. He did give them 30 days notice that he was moving back out. He wasn't on a lease. My 19 y/o son is the one with the hot temper who was very angry, yelled, screamed, and asked me more in-depth questions than B1 had, at the time, and who wanted to pay the xOM a visit. That is the one that I was the most concerned about. But, he is a lot like me.... he gets angry, lets if out loudly and quickly and gets over it just as quickly. Our daughter, who is married and is the oldest (just to clear up any confusion... she and her brother, our special needs son, are adopted. They are my biological niece and nephew.... so, our oldest is not our firstborn) was deeply hurt, but is so kind, so loving, and so forgiving that she expressed her hurt and disappointment but was quick to forgive and we are truly as close as ever. We have not discussed this with our special needs son. He has cerebral palsy and cognitive disabilities, as well. He was born extremely prematurely. Although, he is very sensitive and possesses a lot of intelligence in some areas, he lacks in other areas. He would be anxious, worry and obsess, needlessly, if we told him what had happened. Our youngest, our 17 y/o son is the quietest about it and although we have spoken to him, he really did not want a lot of details. So, I took him to see a pediatric counselor and we are letting him lead the way with regards to how much information he wants and he knows we are available anytime he wants to talk.

B1 and I have great, if not spoiled, children. Even when things were very, very difficult in our marriage we have always loved our children and made their needs a priority. But, since D-day, things have actually gotten better, we are enjoying things as a family so much more and the kids are home, often, when not working or in school, and our daughter, s-i-l and grandson are here every Sunday and many Saturdays.... they'll be over tonight to watch Kentucky play basketball. 

We're close, we're happy (in spite of everything) and, today, life is good!

Thanks for caring enough to ask! 

~EI

correction: football not basketball


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Yes I would love some homemade biscuits and gravy! I tried to make it with the sausage and honestly mine tastes like sjit lol..I'm not good at hommade gravy..*btw love sjit on a shingle*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Come visit, CSS, .... I'll make all of the biscuits and gravy you can eat! And, for dinner; pork tenderloin cooked in white wine, with baby carrots and onions, and homemade mashed potatoes, made with real cream and real butter... that's my specialty for a big crowd.

And, yes, SOS is _$hit on shingles_......... or, creamed beef on toast!


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> btw yes it sucks with the kids knowing what I did..they hated me and would not speak to me..ugg can't talk about it. It makes me so teary eyed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know, I know.....


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## calvin

I hate SOS....always have.
CSS can cook pretty good buuutt,she not good at Southern cooking.
My God she doesnt like bacon!!!! Thats it its over!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seasalt

Remember what SOS really stands for. Us ex-navy radiomen know both definations first hand. Spend 56 days at sea without replenishment and you also get to experience Spam Wellington.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Forgiving her felt good, it felt right.


It's good to hear a success story.


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## CantSitStill

Mashed potatoes are my specialty..I make pretty good taters but it is very time consuming..You can teach me how to make gravy, it will be fun 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

seasalt said:


> Remember what SOS really stands for. Us ex-navy radiomen know both definations first hand. Spend 56 days at sea without replenishment and you also get to experience Spam Wellington.


My dad because of the service always wanted my mom to make SOS, also I notice I eat really really fast because my parents did because they don't have much time to eat I guess when you are in the army, navy or whatever it is you are in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oneMOreguy

Empty Inside said:


> I make very good biscuits and gravy. The biscuits are canned but my sausage gravy is homemade! Have you ever had SOS? My Dad used to make it. I make it, occasionally,..... it's good for breakfast or dinner.
> 
> Anyone know what SOS stands for? I guess it depends on whether or not there are any Army guys or brats reading this thread!
> 
> I'm waiting for an answer.................


..as horrid as the military version was.....believe it or not....the weekend brunch buffet up here at Golden Corral has just the best SOS you could imagine.....not so much on their biscuits and gravy....gotta hit the Corner Cafe in the KC area for that. 

and another interesting factoid.....every few weeks when our son at college comes home.....he manages to bring along 3-4 months of dirty laundry....each time mind you.....somehow he is defeating the laws of physics on this one...LOL


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## pidge70

Empty Inside said:


> I make very good biscuits and gravy. The biscuits are canned but my sausage gravy is homemade! Have you ever had SOS? My Dad used to make it. I make it, occasionally,..... it's good for breakfast or dinner.
> 
> Anyone know what SOS stands for? I guess it depends on whether or not there are any Army guys or brats reading this thread!
> 
> I'm waiting for an answer.................


Don't have to be an Army brat to know what that is....lol We ate it cause we were poor........:rofl:


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## joe kidd

pidge70 said:


> Don't have to be an Army brat to know what that is....lol We ate it cause we were poor........:rofl:


If you made it now I would eat it. Never has it as a kid, dad said he got enough in the Marines.


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## B1

bobka said:


> It's good to hear a success story.


Thank you bobka, BUT...we cannot claim success just yet. We are still a work in progress. There are still going to be bad days, good days, really bad moments, and really good moments. What I did was simply take another step on our journey. We are still on one heck of a ride. Remember, just 2 days ago I yelled at EI, I was obsessing horribly. Today things are great, yesterday things were bad at first then it turned out great. R is work...your always working.

EI just came into the bedroom to get some laundry, she stopped for a moment and asked me if I was ok. That's one of her ways of working on this, by making sure I am not triggering, making sure I'm not in a bad place. If I had said no I'm not ok, she would have stopped everything and talked with me for as long as it took. 

She talked with me a lot a few hours ago, telling me again how sorry she is for what she did, how wrong it was, and that I was NOT to blame for her choice. We are exactly 4 months out past Dday#2 and she is still telling me these things because she loves me and she feels bad and she feels the need to say it over and over and you know what, I still need to hear it, It helps me heal.

I wrote her a email of apology the other day myself, confessing my sins, acknowledging everything I did wrong pre-A, I wanted her to know how sorry I was for what I did to her. It took two to mess this marriage up. Again, this is all part of the work involved in a R. She says sorry and I except her sorry, I say sorry and she excepts my sorry, she acknowledges her wrong and I acknowledge mine. Now this doesn't always happen at the same time, it just happens over time.
The BIG point here is that it takes 2 to make a R work, remember that!


----------



## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> Thank you bobka, BUT...we cannot claim success just yet. We are still a work in progress. There are still going to be bad days, good days, really bad moments, and really good moments. What I did was simply take another step on our journey. We are still on one heck of a ride. Remember, just 2 days ago I yelled at EI, I was obsessing horribly. Today things are great, yesterday things were bad at first then it turned out great. R is work...your always working.
> 
> EI just came into the bedroom to get some laundry, she stopped for a moment and asked me if I was ok. That's one of her ways of working on this, by making sure I am not triggering, making sure I'm not in a bad place. If I had said no I'm not ok, she would have stopped everything and talked with me for as long as it took.
> 
> She talked with me a lot a few hours ago, telling me again how sorry she is for what she did, how wrong it was, and that I was NOT to blame for her choice. We are exactly 4 months out past Dday#2 and she is still telling me these things because she loves me and she feels bad and she feels the need to say it over and over and you know what, I still need to hear it, It helps me heal.
> 
> I wrote her a email of apology the other day myself, confessing my sins, acknowledging everything I did wrong pre-A, I wanted her to know how sorry I was for what I did to her. It took two to mess this marriage up. Again, this is all part of the work involved in a R. She says sorry and I except her sorry, I say sorry and she excepts my sorry, she acknowledges her wrong and I acknowledge mine. Now this doesn't always happen at the same time, it just happens over time.
> The BIG point here is that it takes 2 to make a R work, remember that!


I bet it helped that she told you that you are not the blame for the A. I know how it is, it took me a while to stop throwing Calvin's faults at him. He's so much better now and so am I as far as our faults go. I did that to Calvin today..I looked at him and said "are you ok?" He was
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

fine just watching something on tv..but yes I am always making sure he's ok  we all struggle with this and have good and bad days but we are always working on this journey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

so weird!

WH came over this afternoon, as he had suggested that he might. he sat silently for ten minutes and then told me that he would be finding an apartment by the end of the month.

i said, okay. he asked me if there was anything that i wanted to talk about, and i said that there was not.

he said, i realize that i ruined our lives.

added sadly, i know that we need to talk about separating, i have too much going on this week to be able to deal with that, so how about next week.

i said, sure. and he left.

he left with our laundry card (for the laundry in our building) so i texted him to bring it back.

anyway what the heck? what was the point of this visit?


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## Regret214

margrace said:


> anyway what the heck? what was the point of this visit?


Sounds like he wanted to see if you'd cave and take him back. You should be proud of yourself for standing tall and being strong.:smthumbup:


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## margrace

Regret214 said:


> Sounds like he wanted to see if you'd cave and take him back. You should be proud of yourself for standing tall and being strong.:smthumbup:


hmmmm maybe so! well, i had my three "hills," my three ultimatums for R, all worked out, but he didn't ask me, so i didn't end up even mentioning them.


----------



## CantSitStill

margrace said:


> so weird!
> 
> WH came over this afternoon, as he had suggested that he might. he sat silently for ten minutes and then told me that he would be finding an apartment by the end of the month.
> 
> i said, okay. he asked me if there was anything that i wanted to talk about, and i said that there was not.
> 
> he said, i realize that i ruined our lives.
> 
> added sadly, i know that we need to talk about separating, i have too much going on this week to be able to deal with that, so how about next week.
> 
> i said, sure. and he left.
> 
> he left with our laundry card (for the laundry in our building) so i texted him to bring it back.
> 
> anyway what the heck? what was the point of this visit?


wow seems odd, maybe he wanted to get a feel for how you are feeling about it, he may be feeling guilty, wanted to apologize to make himself feel better? Don't know...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I hate SOS....always have.
> CSS can cook pretty good buuutt,she not good at Southern cooking.
> *My God she doesnt like bacon!!!! Thats it its over!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I hate to say it, but not liking bacon is a deal breaker!  How do you make melt-in-your-mouth green beans without tons of bacon, bacon grease, chicken broth, salt and lots of black pepper???  Jus' teasin', CSS! 

I'm southern and I can cook southern food. But, I'm ashamed to admit... I'm not a baker.....  But, our daughter is!!!  I've never had time to bake.... too busy cooking!

My newest concoction is Jambalaya! The boys _loooooooove_ it..... B1, not so much! :scratchhead: He is strictly a meat and potatoes man!


----------



## B1

Regret214 said:


> Sounds like he wanted to see if you'd cave and take him back. You should be proud of yourself for standing tall and being strong.:smthumbup:


yep. I agree with regret. He was seeing if you would. cry, cave, and beg him back. This was a HUGE eye opener for him. You let him know your boundaries and that you were sticking to them. Good for you.

Now I know this wasn't easy, it had to kill you and I am so sorry for your pain. Life is changing for you big time. I don't necessarily think it's over yet. There is still a glimmer of hope. You stood your ground, he knows you won't break now, that you are NOT going to just let him back in your life without some serious changes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> I hate to say it, but not liking bacon is a deal breaker!  How do you make melt-in-your-mouth green beans without tons of bacon, bacon grease, chicken broth, salt and lots of black pepper???  Jus' teasin', CSS!
> 
> I'm southern and I can cook southern food. But, I'm ashamed to admit... I'm not a baker.....  But, our daughter is!!!  I've never had time to bake.... too busy cooking!
> 
> My newest concoction is Jambalaya! The boys _loooooooove_ it..... B1, not so much! :scratchhead: He is strictly a meat and potatoes man!


Well I'll tell ya, Calvin's mom does her greenbeans that way..she makes really good homemade cornbread  My lasagna is the best but then Calvin makes really good spaghetti and chicken pot pie  I got lucky with him, he's been on his own at such a young age that he is a good cook. I'd rather clean than cook anyday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> yep. I agree with regret. He was seeing if you would. cry, cave, and beg him back. This was a HUGE eye opener for him. You let him know your boundaries and that you were sticking to them. Good for you.
> 
> Now I know this wasn't easy, it had to kill you and I am so sorry for your pain. Life is changing for you big time. I don't necessarily think it's over yet. There is still a glimmer of hope. You stood your ground, he knows you won't break now, that you are NOT going to just let him back in your life without some serious changes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


B1, you called it -- it _did_ kill me.

i HATE admitting that! i hate feeling that. he is giving so little, i can see that as plain as day. why does it have to hurt so much? what is wrong with me?

he couldn't do this if he loved me, right? and if he doesn't love me -- well, i have to get that through my head (and my heart) somehow.

i wish i could just surgically _remove_ that part of me that loves him so that i could get on with my life


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## Regret214

Personally, my thing is baking. Our favorite is a dark chocolate cake (with a cup of brewed coffee in it), topped with the yummiest peanut butter frosting. 

I could eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner!!!!!


----------



## Regret214

margrace said:


> B1, you called it -- it _did_ kill me.
> 
> i HATE admitting that! i hate feeling that. he is giving so little, i can see that as plain as day. why does it have to hurt so much? what is wrong with me?
> 
> he couldn't do this if he loved me, right? and if he doesn't love me -- well, i have to get that through my head (and my heart) somehow.
> 
> i wish i could just surgically _remove_ that part of me that loves him so that i could get on with my life


MG, there's NOTHING wrong with you. You can't just turn your love off. And, there is no way to know if he loves you or not until he is willing to accept what he's done and take a good look at himself and at what is REAL.

It is OK to still love him. You just need to love and respect yourself more right now and do what's best for you. If he was willing to open up, it would be different and you both could work together on reconciling. For now, you need to reconcile for and with yourself. We are all here to support you in whatever you need.


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## joe kidd

Give me an open flame and I could make anything. LOL


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> so weird!
> 
> WH came over this afternoon, as he had suggested that he might. he sat silently for ten minutes and then told me that he would be finding an apartment by the end of the month.
> 
> i said, okay. he asked me if there was anything that i wanted to talk about, and i said that there was not.
> 
> he said, i realize that i ruined our lives.
> 
> added sadly, i know that we need to talk about separating, i have too much going on this week to be able to deal with that, so how about next week.
> 
> i said, sure. and he left.
> 
> he left with our laundry card (for the laundry in our building) so i texted him to bring it back.
> 
> anyway what the heck? what was the point of this visit?


I think the silence was him waiting to see if you were going to break and beg him to come home. I'm so glad that you didn't. Again, asking you if you had anything you wanted to talk about was him trying to gauge where you stood. I know it was hard, but you didn't break.... and you're still breathing! See? Baby steps!

I hope that you stared silently when he said that he realized that he had ruined your lives. I'm not so sure that since he is "too busy" to talk about separation until _next_ week that you shouldn't beat him to the punch and file for divorce _this_ week. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that this is over.... because a divorce can be stopped anytime, I am just suggesting that he not be allowed to continue operating under the impression that he is in the driver's seat.... 

margrace, I know that this isn't my life so please understand that I am not saying this easily because you are just some "words on a computer screen." Having gone through our own trauma of infidelity (yes, I know.... I was the WS) I do, somewhat, feel the intensity of your pain. I am trying to put myself into the mind of your husband and think "what would have gotten me to open my eyes had I refused to see?" If he is determined to leave no matter what, then don't give him the satisfaction of thinking that he broke you. If he is quietly "sitting on the fence" seeing just how long he can "string you along," having his cake and knowing that he can come home whenever he wants to, this will send him a *clear* message.

Now, if you guys think this is bad advice please chime in..... because I am just scouring my brain, for all it's worth, trying to come up with ideas to help margrace get through this. I'm not even saying that I would have the strength to do this if I were in her position.

~EI
_
P.S. Does anyone else find themselves saying, under their breath, "E-I-E-I-O...........?" Or is it just me?_


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> I hate to say it, but not liking bacon is a deal breaker!  How do you make melt-in-your-mouth green beans without tons of bacon, bacon grease, chicken broth, salt and lots of black pepper???  Jus' teasin', CSS!
> 
> I'm southern and I can cook southern food. But, I'm ashamed to admit... I'm not a baker.....  But, our daughter is!!!  I've never had time to bake.... too busy cooking!
> 
> My newest concoction is Jambalaya! The boys _loooooooove_ it..... B1, not so much! :scratchhead: He is strictly a meat and potatoes man!


Youre right Empty....I just kicked her out.
I had it ,not lovin bacon finally broke us.
Sniff,sniff.I'll miss her,kinda...sorta.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

Regret214 said:


> MG, there's NOTHING wrong with you. You can't just turn your love off. And, there is no way to know if he loves you or not until he is willing to accept what he's done and take a good look at himself and at what is REAL.
> 
> It is OK to still love him. You just need to love and respect yourself more right now and do what's best for you. If he was willing to open up, it would be different and you both could work together on reconciling. For now, you need to reconcile for and with yourself. We are all here to support you in whatever you need.


regret, you make so much sense and i know you're right. my head knows it, anyway -- i just can't _feel_ it. i only feel pain.

yes, reconcile with myself. i need to figure out how to put that into practice. 

glad that he can't know how lost and sad i am right now.


----------



## EI

oneMOreguy said:


> .
> and another interesting factoid.....every few weeks when our son at college comes home.....he manages to bring along 3-4 months of dirty laundry....each time mind you.....somehow he is defeating the laws of physics on this one...LOL


_That what children do.... they defeat the laws of..... everything, jus' freakin'.... everything......... _


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> Don't have to be an Army brat to know what that is....lol We ate it cause we were poor........:rofl:


_Been there, done that...... oh wait, we still are! _


----------



## Regret214

margrace said:


> regret, you make so much sense and i know you're right. my head knows it, anyway -- i just can't _feel_ it. i only feel pain.


As EI has said, writing the words and reading them on the computer screen is easy. Putting them into practice is not. This most recent event with you WH is a good first step. As so many have said on this thread, reconciliation is a road we travel, not an end point. Just start where you are, make a plan, set some goals....attainable goals, and check each one off when you reach them. You will have good days and horrendous days, but the sun will always rise in the morning to start again. One day at a time, one breath at a time.


----------



## calvin

Regret and Dig,you guys are seven months out.
How is Dig doing? I ask because I have been told by four people I should be good now.
R is a ***** but it seems to be worth it.I love my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

Empty Inside said:


> I think the silence was him waiting to see if you were going to break and beg him to come home. I'm so glad that you didn't. Again, asking you if you had anything you wanted to talk about was him trying to gauge where you stood. I know it was hard, but you didn't break.... and you're still breathing! See? Baby steps!
> 
> I hope that you stared silently when he said that he realized that he had ruined your lives. I'm not so sure that since he is "too busy" to talk about separation until _next_ week that you shouldn't beat him to the punch and file for divorce _this_ week. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that this is over.... because a divorce can be stopped anytime, I am just suggesting that he not be allowed to continue operating under the impression that he is in the driver's seat....
> 
> margrace, I know that this isn't my life so please understand that I am not saying this easily because you are just some "words on a computer screen." Having gone through our own trauma of infidelity (yes, I know.... I was the WS) I do, somewhat, feel the intensity of your pain. I am trying to put myself into the mind of your husband and think "what would have gotten me to open my eyes had I refused to see?" If he is determined to leave no matter what, then don't give him the satisfaction of thinking that he broke you. If he is quietly "sitting on the fence" seeing just how long he can "string you along," having his cake and knowing that he can come home whenever he wants to, this will send him a *clear* message.
> 
> Now, if you guys think this is bad advice please chime in..... because I am just scouring my brain, for all it's worth, trying to come up with ideas to help margrace get through this. I'm not even saying that I would have the strength to do this if I were in her position.
> 
> ~EI
> 
> thank you EI! you all are definitely not just words on a computer screen to me either
> 
> so so so intensely painful. the amount of pain is shocking, given that i also believe that he is behaving heartlessly. you'd think that my low opinion of his behavior would kind of cancel out some of the love. unfortunately not yet!
> 
> okay, so i could file for divorce, i could consider that. and he would get the documents that quickly after i filed?
> 
> one little fly in that ointment: he will be travelling to las vegas on thursday. i was supposed to go too -- already have my ticket (there goes that money down the drain). he won't be back until monday. so i guess the documents or whatever they are would come while he's away.
> 
> helps soooo much to be in touch with all of you. thank you <3


----------



## Regret214

calvin said:


> Regret and Dig,you guys are seven months out.
> How is Dig doing? I ask because I have been told by four people I should be good now.
> R is a ***** but it seems to be worth it.I love my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, Calvin....we are 7 months out. In general, we are good now. Moving forward together. Dig still has days that he struggles, as do I. IC helps and soon MC will help more. SSRI's help us both. He is on Paxil, as he has mentioned and this has helped him with obsessive thoughts. I have been on Effexor for several years, and recently upped my dose. It helps me manage my anxiety and deal with/address my emotions in a productive way. Yes, R is tough....but I couldn't imagine my life and my future without Dig.


----------



## calvin

Sounds like me.Thanks Regret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

I'm so glad to hear all your children are OK, EI.
I'm wondering that even at their self absorbed age, and no matter how much you think they don't notice things they must be realizing something "good" is happening now. Tons of love in the air in that house. And love was contagious, right?


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm home after a 10 hour long motorcycle club event. Regret showed up at 2pm and we had a fun time. She worked the bar for a bit because she's so beautiful 

I got home almost an hour and half past the time I wanted to be here. I've read her responses here and I can only say one thing: I love you Babe.

Thank you for working hard on this stupid crap. Thank you for showing me that I made the correct choice to stay. And thank you for trying every damn day to show me how much you love me. I may be a hard a$$ sometimes with this sh_t, but in the end, the sun rises and sets with you and I together. I cannot imagine it otherwise.

To all of our TAM friends, I thank you for posting your stories of recovery and reconciliation. As I've said before, it's tough sometimes. Really tough. But days like today, when its a clear blue sky and I feel the love from my wife...it's worth it in the night when we cuddle on the couch to watch a little television.

Peace and sweet dreams to everyone.


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Regret and Dig,you guys are seven months out.
> How is Dig doing? I ask because I have been told by four people I should be good now.
> R is a ***** but it seems to be worth it.I love my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Having not had the opportunity to R with my ex I can't speak from first hand experience but what I will tell you is dealing with ANY trauma takes as long as it takes. So long as you are making overall consistent progress you are on the right track.


----------



## B1

Acabado said:


> I'm so glad to hear all your children are OK, EI.
> I'm wondering that even at their self absorbed age, and no matter how much you think they don't notice things they must be realizing something "good" is happening now. Tons of love in the air in that house. And love was contagious, right?


Yes they know something has changed for the better. They know what happened and yet they see us cuddeling a lot, kissing more, touching more, talking more and just plain loving each other more. Sometimes I think they must get confused considering what happened. 

I think overall it has to be a good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AMU

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread - I get many of the updates via e-mail (not sure why all don't come through, but they give me the flavor) and I enjoy coming to the site and "catching up" on the entire thread. Your stories are honest and hopeful -they reflect both the good and happy moments as well as the struggles. I just wanted you to know that it has been a VERY helpful and uplifting thread for me, and I'm sure it has been providing help to others like me who read, but may not post frequently. So, thank you!

-AMU


----------



## B1

AllMessedUp said:


> Just wanted to say thanks for this thread - I get many of the updates via e-mail (not sure why all don't come through, but they give me the flavor) and I enjoy coming to the site and "catching up" on the entire thread. Your stories are honest and hopeful -they reflect both the good and happy moments as well as the struggles. I just wanted you to know that it has been a VERY helpful and uplifting thread for me, and I'm sure it has been providing help to others like me who read, but may not post frequently. So, thank you!
> 
> -AMU


You are very welcome, and I am certain all the ones posting on here are happy they have helped in some way. We share our stories here to receive help, to vent, and to hopefully help others who are trying to R. Thank you for letting us know we have helped, it helps us and brightens our day to know this.

Hope your Sunday is a great one


----------



## B1

how is everyone this morning?

Margrace, how are you holding up?


----------



## joe kidd

B1 and EI. I read your story last night. If you don't mind me asking, what changed? EI you seemed to be checked out to the point of leaving. If you don't want to answer that's fine.


----------



## B1

joe kidd said:


> B1 and EI. I read your story last night. If you don't mind me asking, what changed? EI you seemed to be checked out to the point of leaving. If you don't want to answer that's fine.


Joe, she is still sleeping and WILL love to answer this. I could also, but she will do a better job at explaining it.

But..you are correct, she was checked out, absolutely gone. In her mind I was not in love with her and she was not in love with me, she even told me this pre-A and during the A.

Basically what you are going to see is that I changed. And..she realized the path she took was VERY wrong. Also, had we had the money she absolutely would have divorced me. It's a mix of things that brought us back together. Our counselor says it's a miracle we are where we are today. He says she was checked out of the marriage, gone gone.

Hold on, I will get her up here in a minute and tell her you told me to wake her that you had an important question


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Joe, she is still sleeping and WILL love to answer this. I could also, but she will do a better job at explaining it.
> 
> But..you are correct, she was checked out, absolutely gone. In her mind I was not in love with her and she was not in love with me, she even told me this pre-A and during the A.
> 
> Basically what you are going to see is that I changed. And..she realized the path she took was VERY wrong. Also, had we had the money she absolutely would have divorced me. It's a mix of things that brought us back together. Our counselor says it's a miracle we are where we are today. He says she was checked out of the marriage, gone gone.
> 
> Hold on, I will get her up here in a minute and tell her you told me to wake her that you had an important question


If you wake EI up for this, B1, I would start sleeping with one eye open !!


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> how is everyone this morning?
> 
> Margrace, how are you holding up?


good morning, thank you for asking 

it's a struggle still, B1. he is coming over this afternoon. in the meantime, i have opened up to a few people about what has been happening, including my sister. she knows me and WH well and is lobbying me to R with WH if he will go to marriage counseling immediately.

i don't disagree with MC -- i had wanted that too.

i am just so exhausted. this is petty and small perhaps, but i really feel that if he says no, i will just fall apart.

i would almost rather not make the request -- although as i see that written, it is plainly ridiculous.

i feel that he is so checked out, so sealed over by now, that he will hardly be able to consider it.

the painfulness of this is affecting my brain, no kidding. can't even really think straight about it.


----------



## margrace

hi again B1: i didn't even see your other post until just now, where you said that this is exactly where EI was when you two began R. you even used that exact phrase, "checked out." interesting -- i actually smiled just now.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> so weird!
> 
> WH came over this afternoon, as he had suggested that he might. he sat silently for ten minutes and then told me that he would be finding an apartment by the end of the month.
> 
> i said, okay. he asked me if there was anything that i wanted to talk about, and i said that there was not.
> 
> he said, i realize that i ruined our lives.
> 
> added sadly, i know that we need to talk about separating, i have too much going on this week to be able to deal with that, so how about next week.
> 
> i said, sure. and he left.
> 
> he left with our laundry card (for the laundry in our building) so i texted him to bring it back.
> 
> anyway what the heck? what was the point of this visit?


So, you are not separated yet? Still living under the same roof? Or is he staying elsewhere until you guys can figure this out?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> good morning, thank you for asking
> 
> it's a struggle still, B1. he is coming over this afternoon. in the meantime, i have opened up to a few people about what has been happening, including my sister. she knows me and WH well and is lobbying me to R with WH if he will go to marriage counseling immediately.
> 
> i don't disagree with MC -- i had wanted that too.
> 
> i am just so exhausted. this is petty and small perhaps, but i really feel that if he says no, i will just fall apart.
> 
> i would almost rather not make the request -- although as i see that written, it is plainly ridiculous.
> 
> i feel that he is so checked out, so sealed over by now, that he will hardly be able to consider it.
> 
> the painfulness of this is affecting my brain, no kidding. can't even really think straight about it.


I feel your pain, and am so sorry you are in this situation. Your posts, by the way, are helpful to me, as I am going through a very difficult situation myself. Stay strong and keep reading and posting.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> B1 and EI. I read your story last night. If you don't mind me asking, what changed? EI you seemed to be checked out to the point of leaving. If you don't want to answer that's fine.


*Geeeez...... Joe, if you read our story you know I give long-winded answers! Are you sure you want me to respond?  LOL*



betrayed1 said:


> Hold on, I will get her up here in a minute and tell her you told me to wake her that you had an important question


*You're going to pay for this later........ I did NOT sleep until noon on Sunday.... okay, yes I did!  I can't believe you woke me up.... you know I never get to sleep! LOL :sleeping:*



jh52 said:


> If you wake EI up for this, B1, I would start sleeping with one eye open !!


*You got that right!  Tonight, when B1 is exhausted after a looooong day with all of the kids and the grandson and he falls into a blissful sleep so he'll be rested for Monday morning, I'll take a quick bath, spritz on a little of that mist that he can't resist.... put on either my black or pink VS bra and matching thong and black lace teddy over the top.... then, I'm going to wake him up and let him decide how important sleep is!........ *


Okay, back to Joe's question. I could make this very simple and simply say that B1 changed. But, I know that would pi$$ off a lot of *TAM*_ers_.

I was absolutely 100% checked out. I was not in love with B1, I didn't even like him, nor did I have any respect whatsoever for him. I am being brutally honest, here, because I think it is important for people to understand just how hopeless a marriage can appear to be and then discover that it can be resurrected from the ashes. Since you've read our story (I'm not sure if you mean that you've read my original thread: HERE and B1's original thread: HERE or just this thread) I won't reiterate all of the miserable details.

In the days and weeks following D-Day, B1 and I were essentially "stuck" here, together, in what felt like, to both of us I'm sure, a Hell hole. He felt devastated and gutted from my betrayal and I felt like I was being ripped into a million pieces. I didn't want to be here. I didn't want to be anywhere near B1. I wanted to be with the xOM. To make matters worse, as if it could have been any worse, on D-Day, a Sunday, my closet friend's 20 y/o step-son had died that very morning after a horrific 16 month battle with cancer and B1 was already scheduled to be off from work for a week starting the next morning.... just thinking about this takes me back to a very dark place.... just 4 1/2 months ago.... May 27th, 2012.

Again, we were stuck. Finances did not allow the option of either of us moving out. I would not have left my children under any circumstances, anyway, and I had asked B1 to consider moving out for a while a full year before my affair began and he had refused. We have a 23 y/o wheelchair bound son with other special needs and the main floor of our home is handicapped accessible. Since he is an adult, now, I am his legal guardian... I can't legally leave him nor would I do so, anyway. But, now that the affair was out in the open, B1 was not going to sit quietly by while I continued my weekly "Girl's Night Out" with a friend.... not the friend whose step-son died. B1 would later learn that there were also lunch dates, during the week, while he was at work. I had managed to carve out quite a bit of time with the OM and B1 was none-the-wiser, at the time. I am reiterating a bit, for the purpose of explaining just how "stuck" B1 and I were, here, together at the time. 

Now..... what changed? While we were "stuck" together all we could do was talk. Oh, there was yelling, screaming, fist pounding and crying, it was horrible and it was UGLY.... Anyone that's experienced a D-Day knows the drill. Eventually, we just got exhausted, too tired to scream, too tired to cry, too tired to do anything. All we had was each other.... and, sometimes, damnit, you just need a hug. So, we hugged, then we stopped yelling and we started talking, and not to sound too cliche, we started peeling back all of those layers; the bitterness, the hurt, the misunderstandings, etc., that occurred prior to the affair, then the lies, the deceit, the betrayal that was the affair. I had made my first post on TAM around June 11th, and being as honest as I was, I got chewed up and spit out. B1 found my post within a day...... I did realize that I owed him the whole truth, no matter the outcome, so on June 13th, I told him that it was a full blown EA/PA. Over the next few weeks I told him everything.... B1 could see early on that the 180 was NOT going to work in our situation. I was so far gone that I would have been _relieved_ for him to go about his business and "leave me alone" but I think he knew, immediately, that he wanted to reconcile, he just didn't know if or how he could get past the betrayal and he wasn't dealing with an unrepentant wife. He held me, hugged me, and consoled me, all the while, I was crying over the loss of my AP.....and he knew it. He was a different B1 than I had seen in years and in many ways I had never seen this B1. He was strong, yet vulnerable, loving and emotional and so connected to me. It was surreal. I remember thinking that he was a totally different man, a man who possessed all of the good qualities that I had remembered about B1 from years before, but also, a man who I had never dreamed existed behind that "Wall of Protection" that he had built around himself. We were talking about separation/divorce, but we knew that it would probably be at least a year before that was even a possibility and we knew that we had to find a way to co-exist in the interim. I started thinking that B1 had become a man that I would love to be married to. I remember the day I thought "Wow, he is going to make his next wife a wonderful husband." I almost felt jealous. I envisioned myself alone and this new and improved B1 having a wonderful life with his "new wife" and I thought, "Like Hell he will, he's mine!" 

Since that time, he and I have continued to talk, hold, hug, make love, yell, scream, cry, (no more fist pounding) rinse and repeat. We're still peeling back all of the layers of our life together.... the good, the bad, and everything in between. I had felt trapped by our finances, the needs of our children and a seriously disconnected husband. With no extended family and limited resources, I lacked the capacity to cope with what I perceived to be the hopelessness of our situation at the time. I still don't know all of the answers, and if I'm being honest, my heart still breaks when I think about the sad state that I was in when I broke my vows after nearly 27 years of marriage. Of course, now, my heart breaks knowing that B1 was suffering all of that time, too, and still is. We didn't know how to handle things back then. He turned inward to cope with his sadness and I turned to someone else. We were both human... we both failed ourselves and each other. Perhaps the time that we were "forced" to spend together with no other options but to peel back all of those layers saved our marriage.

I love B1 like I have never loved him (or anyone) before. Just 4 1/2 months ago I didn't want to be in the same room with him and now I count the hours until he comes home..... 

B1, I love you, thank you so much for loving me the most when I was the least lovable and the least deserving of your love. You saved me and then you saved us. I'm so sorry that I hurt you..... so, so, sorry. I was wrong.... I was broken, but your love healed my broken heart and I am going to heal yours with mine. <3


----------



## calvin

Empty gives long winded answers?
I've never noticed. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Great story. So glad you made it out. I hope that others are encouraged by this. Right now, I am in a very painful place where divorce seems like the only option. Somehow you avoided it. Good for you!


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Empty gives long winded answers?
> I've never noticed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually I was quite surprised how short her response was. 

Though I must admit she is a "great" writer and I always enjoy reading her responses -- even if it takes me two margaritas to get through the full response!!


----------



## pidge70

jh52 said:


> Actually I was quite surprised how short her response was.
> 
> Though I must admit she is a "great" writer and I always enjoy reading her responses -- even if it takes me two margaritas to get through the full response!!




Bad JH!.....:whip:


----------



## jh52

pidge70 said:


> Bad JH!.....:whip:


:smthumbup::rofl::rofl:


----------



## joe kidd

Well EI since you were kind enough to answer I will tell our story the best I can. Pidge can correct if she feels I left something out. 
After 20 yrs pidge had begun contact with her estranged sister and step brother. 
Turns out one of her SB's friends was a guy who really wanted her in her teens. 
They started talking on yahoo and FB. Next thing you know she is going on visits to her "sisters" house. 
This went on for the summer of 2010. In Sept of that year I took a Thursday off. I don't know why, hardly ever do. 
I came home and for some reason got on the desktop cpu, another thing I rarely did since I have a laptop. That was her cpu. 
Yahoo messenger was left on. I clicked it. I started reading through 3 to 4 mos of messages. I stopped went and got an 18 pk of beer and started reading more. By noon I was quite drunk. Before I closed Yahoo I sent the OM a message " I'm ****ing coming for you". 
I then texted pidge that she was dead to me. She sent back what are talking about, I just sent back the OM's name. 
She was home within 2 hrs. 
She came through the door and hell broke loose. From me. She sat and took all of it. I put my foot through a book shelf, flipped the side by side fridge. Called her every name that entered my head. 
I finished all the beer , took about 18 Ambien and passed out. 
About a mo later I started an EA with someone I met online. 
I wanted her to feel what I was. That continued until Dec close to Xmas. On Dec 23rd I told her I would give R a chance.


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Actually I was quite surprised how short her response was.
> 
> Though I must admit she is a "great" writer and I always enjoy reading her responses -- even if it takes me two margaritas to get through the full response!!


That cracks me up jh.Only two drinks to get through her replys...it takes me a keg......or two.
.....no offense EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

joe kidd said:


> Well EI since you were kind enough to answer I will tell our story the best I can. Pidge can correct if she feels I left something out.
> After 20 yrs pidge had begun contact with her estranged sister and step brother.
> Turns out one of her SB's friends was a guy who really wanted her in her teens.
> They started talking on yahoo and FB. Next thing you know she is going on visits to her "sisters" house.
> This went on for the summer of 2010. In Sept of that year I took a Thursday off. I don't know why, hardly ever do.
> I came home and for some reason got on the desktop cpu, another thing I rarely did since I have a laptop. That was her cpu.
> Yahoo messenger was left on. I clicked it. I started reading through 3 to 4 mos of messages.* I stopped went and got an 18 pk of beer and started reading more*. By noon I was quite drunk. Before I closed Yahoo I sent the OM a message " I'm ****ing coming for you".
> I then texted pidge that she was dead to me. She sent back what are talking about, I just sent back the OM's name.
> She was home within 2 hrs.
> She came through the door and hell broke loose. From me. She sat and took all of it. *I put my foot through a book shelf, flipped the side by side fridge*. Called her every name that entered my head.
> *I finished all the beer , took about 18 Ambien and passed out.*
> About a mo later I started an EA with someone I met online.
> I wanted her to feel what I was. That continued until Dec close to Xmas. On Dec 23rd I told her I would give R a chance.


That is almost equal to the amount of property damage and liver damage I did!


----------



## calvin

Joe,when Pidge said the other day that she stays because she loves you really pulled at my heart.
When CSS says it I melt.I know she really does love me and I can tell that she is in love with you big time or she wouldnt be with you.
Give yourself to her man,you wont be sorry that you did
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Joe,when Pidge said the other day that she stays because she loves you really pulled at my heart.
> When CSS says it I melt.I know she really does love me and I can tell that she is in love with you big time or she wouldnt be with you.
> Give yourself to her man,you wont be sorry that you did
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has to love me to have dealt with what I dished her way the last 2 yrs. I was not a pleasant man to begin with, it only got worse.


----------



## joe kidd

Juicer said:


> That is almost equal to the amount of property damage and liver damage I did!


I was not right for a couple weeks after. I probably should have seen a doctor.


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Joe,when Pidge said the other day that she stays because she loves you really pulled at my heart.
> When CSS says it I melt.I know she really does love me and I can tell that she is in love with you big time or she wouldnt be with you.
> Give yourself to her man,you wont be sorry that you did
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::smthumbup:


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> She has to love me to have dealt with what I dished her way the last 2 yrs. I was not a pleasant man to begin with, it only got worse.


I stay cause you are soooooo purdy......


----------



## jh52

joe kidd said:


> She has to love me to have dealt with what I dished her way the last 2 yrs. I was not a pleasant man to begin with, it only got worse.


Glad you see and admit this Joe. Now turn the focus on becoming a better man, husband and father everyday -- for the rest of your life. You can do it -- just stay focused and want it bad enough.


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Glad you see and admit this Joe. Now turn the focus on becoming a better man, husband and father everyday -- for the rest of your life. You can do it -- just stay focused and want it bad enough.


Could'nt agree more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

Empty Inside said:


> *Geeeez...... Joe, if you read our story you know I give long-winded answers! Are you sure you want me to respond?
> 
> ... I love B1 like I have never loved him (or anyone) before. Just 4 1/2 months ago I didn't want to be in the same room with him and now I count the hours until he comes home.....
> *


*

hi everyone:

EI, thanks for sharing this story. as others are saying, your thoughts are always so helpful and well-written.

just returned from lunch conversation with WH. i had mentioned that i was not feeling enthusiastic about requesting MC because i felt that he would not consider it -- he had an unsuccessful MC experience in a previous relationship and also is not introspective by nature. why set myself up to expect otherwise?

he did not respond enthusiastically -- kind of teared up and seemed exhausted. but he did agree.

this is where the hurt part of myself says, great, you are just opening the door to more disappointment and more lies now. i know i will get no guarantees with this... it might not work and months from now i will find myself in the same spot.

another part of me says that MC is one of those things that, looking back, i will want to know that i tried.

so i guess i will start looking for a referral... and in spite of myself i do feel a tiny bit hopeful. hoping to find someone who knows about infidelity.*


----------



## jh52

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> EI, thanks for sharing this story. as others are saying, your thoughts are always so helpful and well-written.
> 
> just returned from lunch conversation with WH. i had mentioned that i was not feeling enthusiastic about requesting MC because i felt that he would not consider it -- he had an unsuccessful MC experience in a previous relationship and also is not introspective by nature. why set myself up to expect otherwise?
> 
> he did not respond enthusiastically -- kind of teared up and seemed exhausted. but he did agree.
> 
> this is where the hurt part of myself says, great, you are just opening the door to more disappointment and more lies now. i know i will get no guarantees with this... it might not work and months from now i will find myself in the same spot.
> 
> another part of me says that MC is one of those things that, looking back, i will want to know that i tried.
> 
> so i guess i will start looking for a referral... and in spite of myself i do feel a tiny bit hopeful. hoping to find someone who knows about infidelity.


MG -- just a caution that there is no sense of MC if he does not want to go or fully particpate. 

Counceling (IC is what I did) was one of the most draining (physical and emotional) thing I ever did in my life. I know I was fully invested -- though it took me a couple of sessions to let my guard down.

Wishing you the best ----


----------



## calvin

marg,
jh is right ,make sure he wants this.
CSS was still in her EA when we did MC for the first time.It didnt do a lick of good.
And shop around for counselors,they are like everone else.You have good plumbers,mechanics and then you have bad ones.
We are starting on our third counselor soon.
This time I think we found the right one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> Well EI since you were kind enough to answer I will tell our story the best I can. Pidge can correct if she feels I left something out.
> After 20 yrs pidge had begun contact with her estranged sister and step brother.
> Turns out one of her SB's friends was a guy who really wanted her in her teens.
> They started talking on yahoo and FB. Next thing you know she is going on visits to her "sisters" house.
> This went on for the summer of 2010. In Sept of that year I took a Thursday off. I don't know why, hardly ever do.
> I came home and for some reason got on the desktop cpu, another thing I rarely did since I have a laptop. That was her cpu.
> Yahoo messenger was left on. I clicked it. I started reading through 3 to 4 mos of messages. I stopped went and got an 18 pk of beer and started reading more. By noon I was quite drunk. Before I closed Yahoo I sent the OM a message " I'm ****ing coming for you".
> I then texted pidge that she was dead to me. She sent back what are talking about, I just sent back the OM's name.
> She was home within 2 hrs.
> She came through the door and hell broke loose. From me. She sat and took all of it. I put my foot through a book shelf, flipped the side by side fridge. Called her every name that entered my head.
> I finished all the beer , took about 18 Ambien and passed out.
> About a mo later I started an EA with someone I met online.
> I wanted her to feel what I was. That continued until Dec close to Xmas. On Dec 23rd I told her I would give R a chance.



He also threw our coffee table at the wall. God, it was horrible. The police came and left. Late Oct we had a HUGE blowout. I had taken Lorcet, Xanax and drank about 3/4 a bottle of whiskey. We were fighting hard. I don't remember much. Joe said I was mean, bad mean. I physically attacked him, said horrible things to him. Started texting OM. I honestly do not remember much of this night. I remember slamming his laptop into the floor. Police were called again. I overdosed on acetaminophen. Was taken by ambulance to the hospital. Had to be put on an IV to counteract the damage that could be done to my liver. Apparently that is a horribly painful and slow way to die. I talked my way out of a psych ward trip. 

I haven't drank a drop again. I won't. Hell, I can't even if I wanted to. I have polycystic kidney disease. I've got about 20yrs before I go into renal failure. 

These are just a few instances of the horrible things we have went through, things we never shared on here. We were awful to one another. People would have said we were toxic and to call it quits. We almost did, numerous times. 

I was taking care of my sister after she had surgery on her neck Nov of 2010 and Joe was texting me how much he missed me and loved me. I had no idea he was talking to someone else at the time. Nov 13, 2010 he said he was going to work. He doesn't normally go to work on Saturdays. Especially dressed the way he was. He left at 7am and came back around 8:30pm Sun. Anyway, I can't deal with typing out anymore than that. Suffice it to say, it was not pretty. He went to her. He did it again on Dec 11, 2010.


----------



## pidge70

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> EI, thanks for sharing this story. as others are saying, your thoughts are always so helpful and well-written.
> 
> just returned from lunch conversation with WH. i had mentioned that i was not feeling enthusiastic about requesting MC because i felt that he would not consider it -- he had an unsuccessful MC experience in a previous relationship and also is not introspective by nature. why set myself up to expect otherwise?
> 
> he did not respond enthusiastically -- kind of teared up and seemed exhausted. but he did agree.
> 
> this is where the hurt part of myself says, great, you are just opening the door to more disappointment and more lies now. i know i will get no guarantees with this... it might not work and months from now i will find myself in the same spot.
> 
> another part of me says that MC is one of those things that, looking back, i will want to know that i tried.
> 
> so i guess i will start looking for a referral... and in spite of myself i do feel a tiny bit hopeful. hoping to find someone who knows about infidelity.



I just wanted to send good vibes your way. You are in my thoughts and I pray for things to go better for you in the days ahead. Take care of yourself! (((HUGS)))


----------



## calvin

Wow Pidge.Flat out wow.
You two are still together two years out.That tells me you guys love eachother and can do this.
Makes me keep looking at CSS and feel how much I love her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> Wow Pidge.Flat out wow.
> You two are still together two years out.That tells me you guys love eachother and can do this.
> Makes me keep looking at CSS and feel how much I love her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It isnt easy Calvin, not at all. I do love him. I told him after his revenge A that he was worth the pain. That as much as it hurt that it was probably the only thing that would have made me see how much I hurt him. So twisted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

pidge70 said:


> It isnt easy Calvin, not at all. I do love him. I told him after his revenge A that he was worth the pain. That as much as it hurt that it was probably the only thing that would have made me see how much I hurt him. So twisted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How can you trust that love will last? That's what I'd like to know, what with thinking about reconciliation and all. Isn't it always going to be taking a chance?


----------



## pidge70

bobka said:


> How can you trust that love will last? That's what I'd like to know, what with thinking about reconciliation and all. Isn't it always going to be taking a chance?


Depends on whether you are willing to take the risk. Joe and I aren't the same people we were 2yrs ago, not by a long shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

pidge70 said:


> Depends on whether you are willing to take the risk. Joe and I aren't the same people we were 2yrs ago, not by a long shot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you may not be the same people 2 years from now, right? It's all just risk. Not to try and be a downer here, just coming to grips with reality.


----------



## margrace

calvin said:


> marg,
> jh is right ,make sure he wants this.
> CSS was still in her EA when we did MC for the first time.It didnt do a lick of good.
> And shop around for counselors,they are like everone else.You have good plumbers,mechanics and then you have bad ones.
> We are starting on our third counselor soon.
> This time I think we found the right one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks for the cautions, jh and calvin.

he admits that he is not looking forward to it and that it did not help him and his fiancee last time. "can it still work if i don't expect it to work?" he asked me.

i said that it can if he is resolved to be open to it and work hard despite his misgivings -- but if he is going to foot-drag or sabotage it, of course it won't work at all.

he said, okay, i can do that.

you are SO right about finding the right person. i'm worried about that. i have seen some posters here say that the wrong therapist actually did harm... 

was there a way that you knew it was the right one when you found him/her?


----------



## margrace

pidge70 said:


> I just wanted to send good vibes your way. You are in my thoughts and I pray for things to go better for you in the days ahead. Take care of yourself! (((HUGS)))


thank you pidge! i need those hugs. it hurt to lose hope, and now it hurts to be hopeful


----------



## margrace

bobka said:


> How can you trust that love will last? That's what I'd like to know, what with thinking about reconciliation and all. Isn't it always going to be taking a chance?


yes. it is always going to be taking a chance. that's what i think, anyway.


----------



## joe kidd

bobka said:


> But you may not be the same people 2 years from now, right? It's all just risk. Not to try and be a downer here, just coming to grips with reality.


Who knows? I'm living for today. Living a life of fear of the future is no life at all.


----------



## pidge70

bobka said:


> But you may not be the same people 2 years from now, right? It's all just risk. Not to try and be a downer here, just coming to grips with reality.


We very well may not be the same people. The difference this time is we communicate. We are in this together. We aren't just two people coexisting in the same house. We both put in the work needed to keep our relationship alive. We owe it to ourselves and to our children. We are a team now, it isn't a case of he/I but, a case of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

margrace said:


> thanks for the cautions, jh and calvin.
> 
> he admits that he is not looking forward to it and that it did not help him and his fiancee last time. "can it still work if i don't expect it to work?" he asked me.
> 
> i said that it can if he is resolved to be open to it and work hard despite his misgivings -- but if he is going to foot-drag or sabotage it, of course it won't work at all.
> 
> he said, okay, i can do that.
> 
> you are SO right about finding the right person. i'm worried about that. i have seen some posters here say that the wrong therapist actually did harm...
> 
> was there a way that you knew it was the right one when you found him/her?


Its hard marg,get on the internet and see how counselors are rated in you area.
Our first was a joke and it took a little to figure that out.
Our second one was decent but she could only take us so far.
My wife has talked to the third one over the phone and she is an expert on infidelity.
Ask them if they have experience with it.
Find one who has delt with infidelity many times or you'll be spinning your wheals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bobka said:


> How can you trust that love will last? That's what I'd like to know, what with thinking about reconciliation and all. Isn't it always going to be taking a chance?


How do you know if you dont try bob?
Yeah its a crap shoot but I'd hate to think of what could have been if I walked away.
So I stay and I....we fight for it.
You'll always wonder about the what if's if you dont give it a shot bob.
Dont you want to say that you really did give it your all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

You never know what could happen I mean what if what if what if? Trust me Calvin is always thinking "oh God what if she does this again" but his answer is.."if she does it's simple, it will be over for sure" also I don't mean to sound all negative but you or her could die tomorrow..We never know what's in our future. We do our best to make the best out of life and that is all we could do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Bobka -- you can't play the what if game in life. You have to do what you think is best for you and do it.

Trust me when I say that no one is guaranteed tomorrow -- in fact no one is guaranteed the next breath.


----------



## jh52

pidge70 said:


> He also threw our coffee table at the wall. God, it was horrible. The police came and left. Late Oct we had a HUGE blowout. I had taken Lorcet, Xanax and drank about 3/4 a bottle of whiskey. We were fighting hard. I don't remember much. Joe said I was mean, bad mean. I physically attacked him, said horrible things to him. Started texting OM. I honestly do not remember much of this night. I remember slamming his laptop into the floor. Police were called again. I overdosed on acetaminophen. Was taken by ambulance to the hospital. Had to be put on an IV to counteract the damage that could be done to my liver. Apparently that is a horribly painful and slow way to die. I talked my way out of a psych ward trip.
> 
> I haven't drank a drop again. I won't. Hell, I can't even if I wanted to. I have polycystic kidney disease. I've got about 20yrs before I go into renal failure.
> 
> These are just a few instances of the horrible things we have went through, things we never shared on here. We were awful to one another. People would have said we were toxic and to call it quits. We almost did, numerous times.
> 
> I was taking care of my sister after she had surgery on her neck Nov of 2010 and Joe was texting me how much he missed me and loved me. I had no idea he was talking to someone else at the time. Nov 13, 2010 he said he was going to work. He doesn't normally go to work on Saturdays. Especially dressed the way he was. He left at 7am and came back around 8:30pm Sun. Anyway, I can't deal with typing out anymore than that. Suffice it to say, it was not pretty. He went to her. He did it again on Dec 11, 2010.


You and Joe have been to hell and back. Don't give up you two -- after all of this within the last two years -- you guys have stayed together for a reason.

Like anything in life that is worth it -- it is hard -- very hard and will take alot or work. But if you guys want it bad enough -- you will get through all the speed bumps in life and will be together. 

Again -- more positive thoughts for you both.


----------



## pidge70

Thanks jh. My life never really was easy. Fought for everything I have. I touched on it in threads I had. Unfortunately I nuked them all one day when a poster p!ssed me off. Anyway, thanks for your neverending encouragement. It truly means a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

pidge70 said:


> Thanks jh. My life never really was easy. Fought for everything I have. I touched on it in threads I had. Unfortunately *I nuked them all one day when a poster p!ssed me off.* Anyway, thanks for your neverending encouragement. It truly means a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know how tempting that is. I have wondered what your story was to be honest. LOL Most people here have one. Not all of us are lucky to not have a horror story.


----------



## pidge70

HopelesslyJaded said:


> I know how tempting that is. I have wondered what your story was to be honest. LOL Most people here have one. Not all of us are lucky to not have a horror story.


There are still bits and pieces scattered around. If you are ever bored or ever just want to know something, feel free to PM me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HopelesslyJaded

pidge70 said:


> There are still bits and pieces scattered around. If you are ever bored or ever just want to know something, feel free to PM me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure thing.


----------



## B1

joe kidd said:


> Well EI since you were kind enough to answer I will tell our story the best I can. Pidge can correct if she feels I left something out.
> After 20 yrs pidge had begun contact with her estranged sister and step brother.
> Turns out one of her SB's friends was a guy who really wanted her in her teens.
> They started talking on yahoo and FB. Next thing you know she is going on visits to her "sisters" house.
> This went on for the summer of 2010. In Sept of that year I took a Thursday off. I don't know why, hardly ever do.
> I came home and for some reason got on the desktop cpu, another thing I rarely did since I have a laptop. That was her cpu.
> Yahoo messenger was left on. I clicked it. I started reading through 3 to 4 mos of messages. I stopped went and got an 18 pk of beer and started reading more. By noon I was quite drunk. Before I closed Yahoo I sent the OM a message " I'm ****ing coming for you".
> I then texted pidge that she was dead to me. She sent back what are talking about, I just sent back the OM's name.
> She was home within 2 hrs.
> She came through the door and hell broke loose. From me. She sat and took all of it. I put my foot through a book shelf, flipped the side by side fridge. Called her every name that entered my head.
> I finished all the beer , took about 18 Ambien and passed out.
> About a mo later I started an EA with someone I met online.
> I wanted her to feel what I was. That continued until Dec close to Xmas. On Dec 23rd I told her I would give R a chance.


Holly cow...I thought hitting the desk and yelling obscenities was bad...flipping the fridge..whoa. You two have truly been through the ringer. It sounds like you two are also a miracle. Amazing you are here on R. So happy you are 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hey *TAM*_ers_,

EI is a woman of many talents. One of those talents, previously known only by B1 and myself, is the disappearing comment trick. The one where EI types out a lengthy comment.... (y'all know I type lengthy comments, right??? ) then presses enter.... and *POOF * the post disappears. Happens to me all of the time. Even my "techie" husband can't figure out how I do it!!! :scratchhead:

_Soooooo_ anyway, tonight, after all of the kids went their merry way (Sunday is family day,) I sat on the couch and B1 laid his head on my lap and I typed a comment on my iPhone (which is a pain in the butt I might add) addressing each and every one of you, *individually*, who have posted, here, in the last couple of days... I know there were a ton of comments today. It took me quite a while to type, I pressed enter, sat my phone down, cuddled with B1 some more, went back later.... no comment??? :scratchhead: 

So, here I go again! I want you all to know how much I appreciate you and how much you inspire me, encourage me and motivate me. *Joe* and *Pidge*, thank you so much for sharing your _journey to reconciliation_, as it is unfolding right before our very eyes, on the Reconciliation thread. I, actually, got goosebumps reading your story the other day. It is hard to imagine being so invested in the relationship of someone that you have never met, yet care so much about. I believe that we all feel that way. We truly care about one another. You guys have bared your souls to us and, more importantly, to each other and I feel so privileged just reading it as it unfolds. *AllMessedUp (AMU)*, I am still holding onto hope for you and Harken. Where there is anger, I believe, there is still love. Neither of you have reached the point of indifference.... Give us an update when you have the time. I think about you all of the time. *margrace*, we are all rooting for you and we are going to be here for you every step of the way. Your sweet spirit and positive attitude (in spite of your current circumstances) is something that I have come to appreciate and look forward to. *Calvin* and *CSS*, I love you guys and I am waiting for your visit. I'll make biscuits and gravy for breakfast.... CSS, you can make the lasagna for dinner! Deal? I did read your thread today and I'm so happy to see that you are both in a good place right now. *jh*, I was a little worried about you. I know that everyone needs a TAM break, on occasion, but don't stay gone too long.... I know that I, certainly, rely on you for your encouragement and wisdom. *Dig* and *Regret*, you guys are so special to us. You have truly helped us through some of the most difficult days in the last few months and I feel honored to think that we may have done the same for you. Dig, I smiled when I read your comment about Regret bartending at your motorcycle event "'cuz she is so beautiful!"......... Not because she makes great drinks or because she could sell ice to Eskimos, but no, it's because she is so beautiful! I think every wife would like for her husband to think she is so beautiful! *bobka*, you do deserve to be happy.... I'm anxious to see what happens when your wife returns. I do have some thoughts about your situation and I will post them on your thread tomorrow. In the meantime, work on bobka! I know the advice that you have been receiving sounds extremely harsh. Again, I have some thoughts, because I can sympathize with your wife and I know how lonely it can be in a marriage without sex. But, cheating is never the answer. I'll post in your thread tomorrow. *2asdf2*, thank you!

I love you guys!

~EI

_P.S. I almost forgot about you, B1, I love you! _


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Hey *TAM*_ers_,
> 
> EI is a woman of many talents. One of those talents, previously known only by B1 and myself, is the disappearing comment trick. The one where EI types out a lengthy comment.... (y'all know I type lengthy comments, right??? ) then presses enter.... and *POOF * the post disappears. Happens to me all of the time. Even my "techie" husband can't figure out how I do it!!! :scratchhead:
> 
> _Soooooo_ anyway, tonight, after all of the kids went their merry way (Sunday is family day,) I sat on the couch and B1 laid his head on my lap and I typed a comment on my iPhone (which is a pain in the butt I might add) addressing each and every one of you, *individually*, who have posted, here, in the last couple of days... I know there were a ton of comments today. It took me quite a while to type, I pressed enter, sat my phone down, cuddled with B1 some more, went back later.... no comment??? :scratchhead:
> 
> So, here I go again! I want you all to know how much I appreciate you and how much you inspire me, encourage me and motivate me. *Joe* and *Pidge*, thank you so much for sharing your _journey to reconciliation_, as it is unfolding right before our very eyes, on the Reconciliation thread. I, actually, got goosebumps reading your story the other day. It is hard to imagine being so invested in the relationship of someone that you have never met, yet care so much about. I believe that we all feel that way. We truly care about one another. You guys have bared your souls to us and, more importantly, to each other and I feel so privileged just reading it as it unfolds. *AllMessedUp (AMU)*, I am still holding onto hope for you and Harken. Where there is anger, I believe, there is still love. Neither of you have reached the point of indifference.... Give us an update when you have the time. I think about you all of the time. *margrace*, we are all rooting for you and we are going to be here for you every step of the way. Your sweet spirit and positive attitude (in spite of your current circumstances) is something that I have come to appreciate and look forward to. *Calvin* and *CSS*, I love you guys and I am waiting for your visit. I'll make biscuits and gravy for breakfast.... CSS, you can make the lasagna for dinner! Deal? I did read your thread today and I'm so happy to see that you are both in a good place right now. *jh*, I was a little worried about you. I know that everyone needs a TAM break, on occasion, but don't stay gone too long.... I know that I, certainly, rely on you for your encouragement and wisdom. *Dig* and *Regret*, you guys are so special to us. You have truly helped us through some of the most difficult days in the last few months and I feel honored to think that we may have done the same for you. Dig, I smiled when I read your comment about Regret bartending at your motorcycle event "'cuz she is so beautiful!"......... Not because she makes great drinks or because she could sell ice to Eskimos, but no, it's because she is so beautiful! I think every wife would like for her husband to think she is so beautiful! *bobka*, you do deserve to be happy.... I'm anxious to see what happens when your wife returns. I do have some thoughts about your situation and I will post them on your thread tomorrow. In the meantime, work on bobka! I know the advice that you have been receiving sounds extremely harsh. Again, I have some thoughts, because I can sympathize with your wife and I know how lonely it can be in a marriage without sex. But, cheating is never the answer. I'll post in your thread tomorrow. *2asdf2*, thank you!
> 
> I love you guys!
> 
> ~EI
> 
> _P.S. I almost forgot about you, B1, I love you! _


----------



## margrace

_So, here I go again! I want you all to know how much I appreciate you and how much you inspire me, encourage me and motivate me.
_

and EI, i know that the others join me in saying, *right back at you!* 

xoxo margrace


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> _So, here I go again! I want you all to know how much I appreciate you and how much you inspire me, encourage me and motivate me.
> _
> 
> and EI, i know that the others join me in saying, *right back at you!*
> 
> xoxo margrace


Yes, indeed. I feel part of a community now, and the support, even when it is tough, is important. Thanks to all of you for everything. 

WW returns today. It will be an interesting day.


----------



## jh52

bobka said:


> Yes, indeed. I feel part of a community now, and the support, even when it is tough, is important. Thanks to all of you for everything.
> 
> WW returns today. It will be an interesting day.


Wishing you the best today. 

This maybe one of the toughest days you have ever faced in your life --- be prepared for the worst possible scenario. 

Stay strong and confident no matter what happens or what is said.


----------



## B1

Well we had a pretty darned good weekend. Lots of family time happening. Me and EI still talked a lot about the A. EI is opening up even more when it comes to saying what I need to hear. Even though, I am not asking for it anymore, odd. It's like I took the pressure off her and now she is opening up more. It's not really that she was closed off either, it's just that she seems burdened more to tell me what she feels.

She will start talking about certain issues, and I am like, Honey, it's ok, Don't worry about it, I let it go. She's like, but B1 I just have to say this, and she will proceed to say things that I have wanted to hear. Our counselor said certain things would take time, it's like peeling back the pedals of a rose, you get more pedals and more but each gets closer to the center.

She has said if only I could read her mind, that then I would certainly be ok about so many things. I guess at this stage, 4 months out, it's mostly insecurity about things that really get's to us. Well, that and hurt, ok, and mind movies too 

Things are definitely better than at 2 months, EI has come along way and so have I. The fog that's mentioned so much I believe was still hovering within EI even a month ago, just a little. Remember, she was done with me and in love with xom. This doesn't just fix itself overnight. EI logically made the transition from him to me on dday, then let her heart catch up over time, an unspoken issue that a BS needs to live with during R, if there were deep emotional feelings for the AP.

We were talking last night and looking back, both of us cannot believe me made it this far. EI was SO gone and so was I. Being broke at the time probably helped saved this marriage. We coudln't afford to seperate or divorce, so we HAD to stick it out together. We were forced to face each other, and face each others issues. Wow, looking back, I just can't believe we made here! But I am so HAPPY we did 

I Love you EI!!!


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> Yes, indeed. I feel part of a community now, and the support, even when it is tough, is important. Thanks to all of you for everything.
> 
> WW returns today. It will be an interesting day.


Wow, so today is the day, thoughts and prayers your way. Hang tough and stay calm, It won't be easy. Sorry this is happening to you 

Please, if you can, let us know how it goes.

take care bobka!


----------



## calvin

Good luck bobka
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Being broke at the time probably helped saved this marriage. We coudln't afford to seperate or divorce, so we HAD to stick it out together. We were forced to face each other, and face each others issues. Wow, looking back, I just can't believe we made here!


This is exactly where we are at - we cannot possibly get a divorce until we deal with our finances and house. That it may hold us together is a possible hopeful point, but I've now lost so much "hopeful", since I've gotten so much to the anger and resentment stage. I guess this'll just be a process. I hope it's okay to work it out here with you guys. I need all the help I can get.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Wow, so today is the day, thoughts and prayers your way. Hang tough and stay calm, It won't be easy. Sorry this is happening to you
> 
> Please, if you can, let us know how it goes.
> 
> take care bobka!


If you guys want to go through this with me, I'll be here.


----------



## B1

Yes, bobka, keep us posted!


----------



## EI

bobka said:


> This is exactly where we are at - we cannot possibly get a divorce until we deal with our finances and house. That it may hold us together is a possible hopeful point, but I've now lost so much "hopeful", since I've gotten so much to the anger and resentment stage. I guess this'll just be a process. *I hope it's okay to work it out here with you guys. I need all the help I can get.*



We are going to be right here, with you, just a keyboard away. Today is going to be painful, bobka. Please, please be strong. No begging, no pleading, and no making promises that you can't keep.... and, no making excuses for her. I'm going to assume that she will be making plenty of excuses for herself. Honestly, if there is going to be any hope of reconciliation, at all, you do have a lot of work to do on yourself. As I have said, many, many times, I do feel a great deal of empathy for any spouse who has been neglected emotionally and/or physically for a prolonged period of time. Whether or not that was a conscious choice on your part does not make her feelings of emptiness any less painful for her. When a spouse feels neglected, and their pleas for improvement fall on deaf or unwilling ears, resentment builds up and, eventually, it turns to bitterness, then detachment and, finally, indifference. When your spouse becomes indifferent towards you, your marriage as you have previously known it is OVER.

I haven't caught up on your thread today so I don't know how your wife is getting home??? Please don't pick her up from anywhere. I would let her start the conversation and I would listen, quietly. She will expect an angry outburst from you and will, likely, be prepared to verbally attack back. When you let her do the talking, without reacting you are going to find out everything you need to know. You're just not going to let her know what is on your mind. In some cases, I recommend that you tell a spouse about TAM. I don't recommend that for you, yet. Do not allow her to think that you have been sitting home pining after her. Then, she will be able to have her cake and eat it, too. Even though your situation is similar to mine and B1's, I do recommend the 180 in your case even though it was wise for B1 not to respond that way. Your wife, blatantly, told you what she was going to do and she did it. She is not trying to hide her behavior and that might mean that she is already planning to end the marriage.

If and when she makes it clear that she is willing to immediately end contact with the other man, go No Contact right this second, send a no contact letter that you read and approve of and mail, yourself, give you complete transparency to all of her passwords to email, Facebook, phone, etc., and she's remorseful and ready to begin making amends, start individual counseling and marriage counseling.... then you can begin easing back on the 180 and begin working together on the problems that were in your marriage prior to the start of her affair. You can't "nice or beg" her out of this affair. 

I don't care how wonderful of a wife she has been in the past. This is not the wife you had pre-affair. Trust me, I know this. 

More input later.... let us know how today goes. STAY STRONG, do not let her see you break. The 180 isn't about you being cruel, unkind, throwing accusations, making threats, demands, yelling and screaming... and certainly, no physical violence. It is about you taking care of bobka, and even while you are falling apart on the inside, you appear calm, in control and in charge of your future. You can calmly let her know that you are not a man who will tolerate his wife carrying on an affair with another man if she is going to remain your wife. 

Then, later in private, you come back here and we'll be here to help you through it the best we can.

Take care,
EI


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Thanks so much for the lengthy note.

I'm sure she thinks I've been sitting here pining for her, because, sadly, not long after she left, I did tell her that I was willing to work on this with her, no matter what. This was back in "the old days", before I got mad, and also before I realized how much self-respect I was losing, had lost.

It's a different Bobka today, and although you're all going to yell at me, I HAVE to pick her up, as no one else is avalable. But it's going to be a long, quiet drive home from what I can see. I know she will want a hug (just a feeling I have), and I will have to say to her "I hope you understand why a hug would not be what I want to give you right now." That will start things.

I've been advised not to try and predict how she is going to behave about all this. One person (maybe you) told me to expect her to return feeling entitled. I'm not sure what she might feel entiled to, other than maybe my puppy-dog loyalty to her, but that is not what she'll see. She'll get the 180, pure and simple. I just have to know when to shut up - that's really what the 180 is all about, in a lot of ways.


----------



## jh52

Bobka -- one thing I learned form all the stories on TAM is not try and think what you WAW is thinking. No one knows but her.

I also don't know if she will come out blazing and blame you for everything in her life -- basically she may just rewrite yuor whole history together --- but that is the "normal" script.

She may come back and say she is leaving you -- and moving where OM lives.

She may ask you to forgive her .....

So as you can tell -- there are 3 scenarios above -- and there are many more that could play out.

Just stay strong -- no begging -- no I am sorry -- the affair with OM is totally 100% on her.

Good luck.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

jh52 said:


> Bobka -- one thing I learned form all the stories on TAM is not try and think what you WAW is thinking. No one knows but her.
> 
> I also don't know if she will come out blazing and blame you for everything in her life -- basically she may just rewrite yuor whole history together --- but that is the "normal" script.
> 
> She may come back and say she is leaving you -- and moving where OM lives.
> 
> She may ask you to forgive her .....
> 
> So as you can tell -- there are 3 scenarios above -- and there are many more that could play out.
> 
> Just stay strong -- no begging -- no I am sorry -- the affair with OM is totally 100% on her.
> 
> Good luck.


Based on some of what I heard from family when she left, she has re-written a lot of our history; or re-lived it, in the new light of feeling entitled to crap on our marriage. But when she awakens to the damage she's done to so many people and situations, she will see things differently. Question is, will it be too late?

It's a shame that we will have to live together while working this out. It would be so much easier if we could be out of each others' sight. I don't know if I'll be able to stand to even look her in the eye. 

I promise - no begging. What would I beg for?


----------



## EI

bobka said:


> Thanks so much for the lengthy note.
> 
> I HAVE to pick her up, as no one else is avalable. But it's going to be a long, quiet drive home from what I can see. I know she will want a hug (just a feeling I have), and I will have to say to her "I hope you understand why a hug would not be what I want to give you right now." That will start things.


Use your body language to let her know that a hug is not something that you will be giving to a wife who is engaging in an extra-marital affair. Do not act angry... be calm and in control. If she persists and asks for a hug, simply say "NO." I know that it will hurt you, because you probably need a hug, yourself, but bobka, she wasn't thinking about you when she left you home and went off to be with OM. Don't hug her. I *promise you* that she will, literally, be testing you to see just how much power she has over your emotions in this situation. *You *must be in control of your emotions. Because of your financial situation she might believe that she can blatantly carry on this affair as divorce is not currently financially feasible. She will want to "be your friend." NO, don't allow it. Oh my God, have I become a *TAM*_er_??? 



bobka said:


> I've been advised not to try and predict how she is going to behave about all this. One person (maybe you) told me to expect her to return feeling entitled. I'm not sure what she might feel entiled to, other than maybe my puppy-dog loyalty to her, but that is not what she'll see. She'll get the 180, pure and simple. I just have to know when to shut up - that's really what the 180 is all about, in a lot of ways.


I am the one who told you that she would feel entitled. What she will feel entitled to is to either continue carrying on this affair, or to be granted immediate absolution for her _"indiscretion."_ She is bitter, she feels that you have physically, and possibly emotionally, neglected her... and you have. Some of it might be beyond your control due to medical reasons and medication ... but, in all honesty, it is both foolish and unwise to systematically neglect your spouses stated reasonable needs and desires for a prolonged period of time and not expect them to become resentful, bitter and disconnected. That is something the two of you can work on if reconciliation becomes an option that you both wish to pursue. Do understand that if she does not wish to pursue a reconciliation that it is likely that your marriage is over. It takes two partners willing to give 100% of their effort to even begin the long, hard, painful journey of reconciliation. B1 had medical and medication issues, as well.... but, after 28 years of marriage, 31 years together, 5 children, 1 grandson, and so much other *#$% in between you can't even begin to imagine, we are enjoying more intimacy, emotionally and physically, than we have ever had in our lives. 

Keep us updated!

~EI


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Empty Inside said:


> Use your body language to let her know that a hug is not something that you will be giving to a wife who is engaging in an extra-marital affair. Do not act angry... be calm and in control. If she persists and asks for a hug, simply say "NO." I know that it will hurt you, because you probably need a hug, yourself, but bobka, she wasn't thinking about you when she left you home and went off to be with OM. Don't hug her. I *promise you* that she will, literally, be testing you to see just how much power she has over your emotions in this situation. *You *must be in control of your emotions. Because of your financial situation she might believe that she can blatantly carry on this affair as divorce is not currently financially feasible. She will want to "be your friend." NO, don't allow it. Oh my God, have I become a *TAM*_er_???
> 
> I've been advised not to try and predict how she is going to behave about all this. One person (maybe you) told me to expect her to return feeling entitled. I'm not sure what she might feel entiled to, other than maybe my puppy-dog loyalty to her, but that is not what she'll see. She'll get the 180, pure and simple. I just have to know when to shut up - that's really what the 180 is all about, in a lot of ways.


I am the one who told you that she would feel entitled. What she will feel entitled to is to either continue carrying on this affair, or to be granted immediate absolution for her _"indiscretion."_ She is bitter, she feels that you have physically, and possibly emotionally, neglected her... and you have. Some of it might be beyond your control due to medical reasons and medication ... but, in all honesty, it is both foolish and unwise to systematically neglect your spouses stated reasonable needs and desires for a prolonged period of time and not expect them to become resentful, bitter and disconnected. That is something the two of you can work on if reconciliation becomes an option that you both wish to pursue. Do understand that if she does not wish to pursue a reconciliation that it is likely that your marriage is over. It takes two partners willing to give 100% of their effort to even begin the long, hard, painful journey of reconciliation. B1 had medical and medication issues, as well.... but, after 28 years of marriage, 31 years together, 5 children, 1 grandson, and so much other *#$% in between you can't even begin to imagine, we are enjoying more intimacy, emotionally and physically, than we have ever had in our lives. 

Keep us updated!

~EI[/QUOTE]

We have been texting some, maybe every other day just about logistical things like bills and what-not. She just texted me and said she is "so ready to be home." What could she possibly mean by that? Anyhow, I just didn't reply. What would I say that wouldn't be SO mean?


----------



## Leobwin

betrayed1 said:


> Reconciliation....What does it mean to you?


To me, it would mean that my WS would own her ****, realize that her multiple As caused irreparable damage to our marriage, give meaningful apologies, demonstrate that actions>words, and most importantly focus on moving forward without being blind to the past.

For my part it would mean that I would accept that she is in fact trying to move forward in her own way, and I would have the strength to push down my PTSD tendencies every time her phone announces a new email, Facebook update or text message.


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## Acabado

bobka


> She just texted me and said she is "so ready to be home."


post it at your thread (Recon II). Maybe OM was a total disapointment, maybe the whole experience was a total fiasco. Maybe it was sobering/defogging for her. Who knows. Let's wait.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Acabado said:


> bobka
> post it at your thread (Recon II). Maybe OM was a total disapointment, maybe the whole experience was a total fiasco. Maybe it was sobering/defogging for her. Who knows. Let's wait.


No, it's not that, I'm sure. We just miss home when we go away. Miss the dogs, miss the routine. If the whole thing had been a fiasco, she was able to buy a plane ticket and come home any time she wanted to. Even I am not that hopeful.

She had the opportunity to cut this off at any point over the last 2+ weeks. IF she had had any remorse, I would have known about it. What I got a lot of was "I'm so sorry this is causing you so much pain." Fat lot of good that does. The pain could have stopped before she stepped out the door. Damn, I'm mad at her!


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## SomedayDig

Leobwin said:


> To me, it would mean that my WS would own her ****, realize that her multiple As caused irreparable damage to our marriage, give meaningful apologies, demonstrate that actions>words, and most importantly focus on moving forward without being blind to the past.
> 
> For my part it would mean that I would accept that she is in fact trying to move forward in her own way, and* I would have the strength to push down my PTSD tendencies every time her phone announces a new email, Facebook update or text message.*


Regarding the bolded...that is a tough one, man. Really tough. I'm 7 months out and sometimes I still get that feeling when Regret gets a text or FB ring on her phone. I mean, I know she's right here next to me and I still get it! PTSD for us is PISD (pi$$ed)...Post Infidelity Stress Disorder. And we are allowed to get P'd at times.

I hope your WS will do what you need. I guess I need to look for your story if you've posted it yet.


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## SomedayDig

EI...thank you so much for your kind words. Yes, Regret is a very beautiful woman. I tell her all the time. The sad part of me is that I have always told her...even during the 5 years of her affair. It never really reached her then. It does now.

You guys definitely helped me that day I almost walked. It was almost as difficult as Dday. I still don't have a full recollection of those 5 minutes, though...the minutes where I think my brain just couldn't take any more and it shut down and lashed out.

I hope that I have been good support for some on the board. I am pro-reconciliation, however sometimes it isn't for everyone. I hope to give sound advice and I pray for everyone in every situation.


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## B1

bobka said:


> No, it's not that, I'm sure. We just miss home when we go away. Miss the dogs, miss the routine. If the whole thing had been a fiasco, she was able to buy a plane ticket and come home any time she wanted to. Even I am not that hopeful.
> 
> She had the opportunity to cut this off at any point over the last 2+ weeks. IF she had had any remorse, I would have known about it. What I got a lot of was "I'm so sorry this is causing you so much pain." Fat lot of good that does. The pain could have stopped before she stepped out the door. Damn, I'm mad at her!


You are going to be angry, VERY angry, and you have a right to be.
Just don't break your hand, flip the fridge, break tables etc. You are also going to be driving when this possibly hits, be careful, pull over if you have to. Hold out until you get home, be careful, just don't do anything stupid, don't let the anger control you. Be in control.

This is going to be hard bobka, very hard on you. I feel for you, I really do.


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## B1

Leobwin said:


> To me, it would mean that my WS would own her ****, realize that her multiple As caused irreparable damage to our marriage, give meaningful apologies, demonstrate that actions>words, and most importantly focus on moving forward without being blind to the past.
> 
> For my part it would mean that I would accept that she is in fact trying to move forward in her own way, and I would have the strength to push down my PTSD tendencies every time her phone announces a new email, Facebook update or text message.


Pushing down the mind movies is the hardest for me, my God the pain of those things are unreal, they completly crush my me. 

The phone going off doesn't bother me as much anymore, mainly because she leaves it laying around all the time open and available.
I'll pick it up occasionally and poke around on it, she never bats an eye. Sometimes she gives it to me to fix something on it. Her tranparency is 100% and that truly helps.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> You are going to be angry, VERY angry, and you have a right to be.
> Just don't break your hand, flip the fridge, break tables etc. You are also going to be driving when this possibly hits, be careful, pull over if you have to. Hold out until you get home, be careful, just don't do anything stupid, don't let the anger control you. Be in control.
> 
> This is going to be hard bobka, very hard on you. I feel for you, I really do.


Okay, she just called me about her flight. She asked if everything was alright. I told her of course I was mad that she had left me for 2 weeks. She seemed surprised at this. What happened to the wife I once knew? It's a f***ing mystery.

So now will she be sitting on the plane thinking up some strategy other than returning to a puppy-dog? God, what did I tell her? She almost sounded like I sent her off with my blessing.


----------



## jh52

bobka said:


> Okay, she just called me about her flight. She asked if everything was alright. I told her of course I was mad that she had left me for 2 weeks. She seemed surprised at this. What happened to the wife I once knew? It's a f***ing mystery.
> 
> So now will she be sitting on the plane thinking up some strategy other than returning to a puppy-dog? God, what did I tell her? She almost sounded like I sent her off with my blessing.


Stop playing, what is she thinking and she sounded surprised. You have no clue what has gone on her brain or what is going on in her brain. Stop the mind reading games and playing off of everything she says. 

It won't help and will only drive you crazy.


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## CantSitStill

Alot of catching up here but read, I'm just gonna ditto everything Empty said. Take care of yourself bob
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Well we had a pretty darned good weekend. Lots of family time happening. Me and EI still talked a lot about the A. EI is opening up even more when it comes to saying what I need to hear. Even though, I am not asking for it anymore, odd. It's like I took the pressure off her and now she is opening up more. It's not really that she was closed off either, it's just that she seems burdened more to tell me what she feels.
> 
> She will start talking about certain issues, and I am like, Honey, it's ok, Don't worry about it, I let it go. She's like, but B1 I just have to say this, and she will proceed to say things that I have wanted to hear. Our counselor said certain things would take time, it's like peeling back the pedals of a rose, you get more pedals and more but each gets closer to the center.
> 
> She has said if only I could read her mind, that then I would certainly be ok about so many things. I guess at this stage, 4 months out, it's mostly insecurity about things that really get's to us. Well, that and hurt, ok, and mind movies too
> 
> Things are definitely better than at 2 months, EI has come along way and so have I. The fog that's mentioned so much I believe was still hovering within EI even a month ago, just a little. Remember, she was done with me and in love with xom. This doesn't just fix itself overnight. EI logically made the transition from him to me on dday, then let her heart catch up over time, an unspoken issue that a BS needs to live with during R, if there were deep emotional feelings for the AP.
> 
> We were talking last night and looking back, both of us cannot believe me made it this far. EI was SO gone and so was I. Being broke at the time probably helped saved this marriage. We coudln't afford to seperate or divorce, so we HAD to stick it out together. We were forced to face each other, and face each others issues. Wow, looking back, I just can't believe we made here! But I am so HAPPY we did
> 
> I Love you EI!!!


Hey B1 – wanted to respond to this earlier, but I wanted to give what you said, more thought.

You both are very fortunate to have family time every Sunday, even though at times, you probably both need a break.

My thinking is that EI is opening more as time goes by is because she has seen the hurt she has caused you to go through – and wants to do whatever it takes to help you (and also her) to progress in your new marriage. They say when you pressure some one you love to do something (like lose weight, quit smoking, quit drinking etc.) it usually has the opposite affect. She is opening up because she is feeling safer, that no matter what she says (even if it hurts you) you will both work it out together. Together being the key word.

Let her talk B1 – when she needs to tell you something. She is hurting and starting to heal what she did to you and your old marriage. She needs to forgive herself in order to move however slowly into your new marriage. You said a rose – I like the analogy of an onion – the more layers you peal, the closer you get to the core. However, onions can make you cry – and crying is still good for you both. It’s a great release of frustration and tension – and God knows you both have enough.

I am glad you can’t read her mind – even though EI said that. The reason is – if you could read her mind --- she wouldn’t have to say things – and when EI tells you something, it once again helps her heal as well as you.

You guys are a few days short of 5 months – so you are taking it hour by hour and day by day.

The fog was there a month or two ago – because it was way too soon – and the affair was only over 2 months -- and did she really want to be married to you as she was so far gone? She hated you and wanted the xom.

Not so sure it was dday that she started her transition – after all if I remember correctly she was busted. I am sure on dday she was really really pissed off at you for ruining her life and her “dream”.

You are both living a miracle now – and have a 2nd chance that so many others would kill to have.

You are on the right track – life is a challenge – there are many bumps ahead – but I am convinced, 100% that you and EI will grow old together.


----------



## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> Hey *TAM*_ers_,
> 
> EI is a woman of many talents. One of those talents, previously known only by B1 and myself, is the disappearing comment trick. The one where EI types out a lengthy comment.... (y'all know I type lengthy comments, right??? ) then presses enter.... and *POOF * the post disappears. Happens to me all of the time. Even my "techie" husband can't figure out how I do it!!! :scratchhead:
> 
> _Soooooo_ anyway, tonight, after all of the kids went their merry way (Sunday is family day,) I sat on the couch and B1 laid his head on my lap and I typed a comment on my iPhone (which is a pain in the butt I might add) addressing each and every one of you, *individually*, who have posted, here, in the last couple of days... I know there were a ton of comments today. It took me quite a while to type, I pressed enter, sat my phone down, cuddled with B1 some more, went back later.... no comment??? :scratchhead:
> 
> So, here I go again! I want you all to know how much I appreciate you and how much you inspire me, encourage me and motivate me. *Joe* and *Pidge*, thank you so much for sharing your _journey to reconciliation_, as it is unfolding right before our very eyes, on the Reconciliation thread. I, actually, got goosebumps reading your story the other day. It is hard to imagine being so invested in the relationship of someone that you have never met, yet care so much about. I believe that we all feel that way. We truly care about one another. You guys have bared your souls to us and, more importantly, to each other and I feel so privileged just reading it as it unfolds. *AllMessedUp (AMU)*, I am still holding onto hope for you and Harken. Where there is anger, I believe, there is still love. Neither of you have reached the point of indifference.... Give us an update when you have the time. I think about you all of the time. *margrace*, we are all rooting for you and we are going to be here for you every step of the way. Your sweet spirit and positive attitude (in spite of your current circumstances) is something that I have come to appreciate and look forward to. *Calvin* and *CSS*, I love you guys and I am waiting for your visit. I'll make biscuits and gravy for breakfast.... CSS, you can make the lasagna for dinner! Deal? I did read your thread today and I'm so happy to see that you are both in a good place right now. *jh*, I was a little worried about you. I know that everyone needs a TAM break, on occasion, but don't stay gone too long.... I know that I, certainly, rely on you for your encouragement and wisdom. *Dig* and *Regret*, you guys are so special to us. You have truly helped us through some of the most difficult days in the last few months and I feel honored to think that we may have done the same for you. Dig, I smiled when I read your comment about Regret bartending at your motorcycle event "'cuz she is so beautiful!"......... Not because she makes great drinks or because she could sell ice to Eskimos, but no, it's because she is so beautiful! I think every wife would like for her husband to think she is so beautiful! *bobka*, you do deserve to be happy.... I'm anxious to see what happens when your wife returns. I do have some thoughts about your situation and I will post them on your thread tomorrow. In the meantime, work on bobka! I know the advice that you have been receiving sounds extremely harsh. Again, I have some thoughts, because I can sympathize with your wife and I know how lonely it can be in a marriage without sex. But, cheating is never the answer. I'll post in your thread tomorrow. *2asdf2*, thank you!
> 
> I love you guys!
> 
> ~EI
> 
> _P.S. I almost forgot about you, B1, I love you! _


I know how you might do it! Accidentally highlight the contents of the post, then press enter. This can be taken for delete and it all goes puff! As you say!

Control Z can sometimes get it all back.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I hope that I have been good support for some on the board. I am pro-reconciliation, however sometimes it isn't for everyone. I hope to give sound advice and I pray for everyone in every situation.



You have been a Godsend to B1 on, at least, 2 or 3 occasions, so that means that you have been a Godsend to me, as well, by proxy!  A couple of months ago when things were much more tense for you and Regret, and B1 and myself, Regret and I would often pm one another with a simple "Chin Up" or "Hang in there, I'm thinking about you" kind of message. When you're having a tough day, those little messages mean so much.

I think we're all here, doing the best we can, trying to find our own way and perhaps trying to leave an easier path for those a few steps behind us. At least that is my hope!

~EI


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## EI

MattMatt said:


> I know how you might do it! Accidentally highlight the contents of the post, then press enter. This can be taken for delete and it all goes puff! As you say!
> 
> Control Z can sometimes get it all back.


Thanks, MM, I'll give that a try the next time I acciden..........


----------



## MattMatt

jh52 said:


> Bobka -- one thing I learned form all the stories on TAM is not try and think what you WAW is thinking. No one knows but her.
> 
> I also don't know if she will come out blazing and blame you for everything in her life -- basically she may just rewrite yuor whole history together --- but that is the "normal" script.
> 
> She may come back and say she is leaving you -- and moving where OM lives.
> 
> She may ask you to forgive her .....
> 
> So as you can tell -- there are 3 scenarios above -- and there are many more that could play out.
> 
> Just stay strong -- no begging -- no I am sorry -- the affair with OM is totally 100% on her.
> 
> Good luck.


Sometimes the last person who knows what they are thinking is a WS.


----------



## joe kidd

This year. 
Halloween will be filled with fun. 
Thanksgiving will be filled with love. 
Christmas will be filled with the smells of baking and the laughter of my family. 
The holidays wont be the tense , desperate, finger pointing debacle they have become the last 2yrs.


----------



## MattMatt

bobka said:


> Okay, she just called me about her flight. *She asked if everything was alright. I told her of course I was mad that she had left me for 2 weeks.* She seemed surprised at this. What happened to the wife I once knew? It's a f***ing mystery.
> 
> So now will she be sitting on the plane thinking up some strategy other than returning to a puppy-dog? God, what did I tell her? She almost sounded like I sent her off with my blessing.


This makes we want to go like Scooby Doo: "Huuuuh?"

Words sometimes fail me. This is one such time.

We'll be here for you, mate.:smthumbup:


----------



## jh52

joe kidd said:


> This year.
> Halloween will be filled with fun.
> Thanksgiving will be filled with love.
> Christmas will be filled with the smells of baking and the laughter of my family.
> The holidays wont be the tense , desperate, finger pointing debacle they have become the last 2yrs.


Will hold you to these promises Joe !!


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> You are both living a miracle now – and have a 2nd chance that so many others would kill to have.
> 
> You are on the right track – life is a challenge – there are many bumps ahead – but I am convinced, 100% that you and EI will grow old together.


JH, you have no idea how much your words of wisdom and encouragement mixed in with an honest dose of reality have meant to me, and I'm certain that I speak for B1, as well.

There were days in the first couple of weeks, even in the first couple of months after D-Day that I wondered if B1 and I were going to get through this, together. Then, I would log onto TAM and I'd find encouragement, inspiration and strength and I'd think, "Of course we're going to make it, we have to!" We still have good days and bad days.... but the good days are becoming great days and bad days, well, we get through them, and I can honestly say that when we do.... we grow even closer. B1 has been my champion throughout all of this. I don't think there is a day that goes by, now, that I don't tell him that "I would have settled for so much less." And, I truly mean that..... he melts my heart. <3 Just 5 months ago, nothing could have convinced me that I could love him the way that I do. He is my everything! He makes me giddy!

Thanks, JH, for being one of our biggest supporters! You believed in me, at times, when I wasn't sure that I believed in myself.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> This year.
> Halloween will be filled with fun.
> Thanksgiving will be filled with love.
> Christmas will be filled with the smells of baking and the laughter of my family.
> The holidays wont be the tense , desperate, finger pointing debacle they have become the last 2yrs.


Wow..........  That's a smile inducing comment, joe kidd!


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> Let her talk B1 – when she needs to tell you something. She is hurting and starting to heal what she did to you and your old marriage. She needs to forgive herself in order to move however slowly into your new marriage. You said a rose – I like the analogy of an onion – the more layers you peal, the closer you get to the core. However, onions can make you cry – and crying is still good for you both. It’s a great release of frustration and tension – and God knows you both have enough.


Came home today and we were talking, I mean, I was letting her talk  and she grabbed my hand and said "B1, YOU didn't do this, I did this" I broke down, I cried, it's crazy what certain words will do to you. This isn't even something I have longed to hear but it meant so much to me to hear it. I know, of course I didn't do it, but it's just an acknowledgment that SHE did this, SHE is responsible. She tells me this in other ways too, but the way she did it just broke me down and touched my heart.



jh52 said:


> Not so sure it was dday that she started her transition – after all if I remember correctly she was busted. I am sure on dday she was really really pissed off at you for ruining her life and her “dream”.


JH, you are correct here, it would NOT have been Dday. You are SO right, She was really pissed off at me that day and probably for a week or so longer. EVERYTHING was my fault 

Yes, we are a miracle and we are realizing this more and more. I think many of us on this R thread are miracles.

As always, thank you JH for spending the time to post on this, it's very insightful and helpful.


----------



## sdcott

I just sent a copy to my husband. We are 6 mos 3 weeks since d day when he was found out = we have been working very hard to make sure we have a new and better chapter. btw - Face Book is where my nightmare took shape when an old girlfriend contacted him. Neither one of us has our FB any more!!!!


----------



## margrace

hi everyone:

little update here. the last time i posted, i mentioned that WH had agreed to try MC. some of you cautioned me to make sure that he really wants to do it. we have spoken about it since, and he is semi-dreading it (as i already knew) but seems resolved to give it a real try. i've gotten a couple of referrals, so we should be starting soon.

and he moved back in last night. only gone for 5 days. my gut tells me that that is the best thing for trying R. i don't think going in the direction of greater disengagement was helping us. i understand that it is _supposed _to help, so maybe i'm wrong.... but it just felt like we were slipping toward shutting down (which is a defense that both of us use).

having him back is no panacea either, because we are in such a strange place. we have been in really rough spots together since d-day, but right now it just feels.... weird.

it's not that i've given up completely (obviously, since he's back). maybe it's that i'm closer to giving up than ever before? or that having been here alone, even if only for a few days, made that possibility seem more real? or that i really see now how hard this will be, and how much work we will have to do (if we can)?

i'm just tired of having it hurt so much. and i want him to be better at this, to try harder or something 

when he's here, i can't imagine how we will go on. when he's not here, i can't imagine not trying until there's nothing less to try.

it's been 7 months! shouldn't things be better by now?! it hasn't even gotten consistently better as time has gone by. it's more like a few steps forward, a few back....

tired, don't trust him, confused.


----------



## B1

joe kidd said:


> This year.
> Halloween will be filled with fun.
> Thanksgiving will be filled with love.
> Christmas will be filled with the smells of baking and the laughter of my family.
> The holidays wont be the tense , desperate, finger pointing debacle they have become the last 2yrs.


Ok, I'm calling bologna here. Pidge, You can't leave Joe tied up forever and keep using these Hallmark card sayings. It's just not right


----------



## B1

sdcott said:


> I just sent a copy to my husband. We are 6 mos 3 weeks since d day when he was found out = we have been working very hard to make sure we have a new and better chapter. btw - Face Book is where my nightmare took shape when an old girlfriend contacted him. Neither one of us has our FB any more!!!!


Sent a copy? 
I assume you mean to this thread?

Facebook was how my wife hooked up with her old boyfriend too 
Glad you found us. Feel free to post, ask, vent, whatever you like, we are all ears


----------



## calvin

Hang in there marg,its a little over seven months for us and its been a rough ride but things are starting to get better,give it time.
There is no time frame for this,just hold on.
You'll know when its getting better but he really has to be the one to work his ass off on this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> little update here. the last time i posted, i mentioned that WH had agreed to try MC. some of you cautioned me to make sure that he really wants to do it. we have spoken about it since, and he is semi-dreading it (as i already knew) but seems resolved to give it a real try. i've gotten a couple of referrals, so we should be starting soon.
> 
> and he moved back in last night. only gone for 5 days. my gut tells me that that is the best thing for trying R. i don't think going in the direction of greater disengagement was helping us. i understand that it is _supposed _to help, so maybe i'm wrong.... but it just felt like we were slipping toward shutting down (which is a defense that both of us use).
> 
> having him back is no panacea either, because we are in such a strange place. we have been in really rough spots together since d-day, but right now it just feels.... weird.
> 
> it's not that i've given up completely (obviously, since he's back). maybe it's that i'm closer to giving up than ever before? or that having been here alone, even if only for a few days, made that possibility seem more real? or that i really see now how hard this will be, and how much work we will have to do (if we can)?
> 
> i'm just tired of having it hurt so much. and i want him to be better at this, to try harder or something
> 
> when he's here, i can't imagine how we will go on. when he's not here, i can't imagine not trying until there's nothing less to try.
> 
> it's been 7 months! shouldn't things be better by now?! it hasn't even gotten consistently better as time has gone by. it's more like a few steps forward, a few back....
> 
> tired, don't trust him, confused.


Margrace...yes it should be better then it is right now. But this is where you are and as I say sometimes, it is what it is.

You have to work with what you have. Hopefully, counseling will really help this time. Maybe this counselor will get through to him. Maybe you standing firm and keeping your boundaries will open his eyes. 

Is he open to talking at all right now, or is he closed off?


----------



## bfree

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> little update here. the last time i posted, i mentioned that WH had agreed to try MC. some of you cautioned me to make sure that he really wants to do it. we have spoken about it since, and he is semi-dreading it (as i already knew) but seems resolved to give it a real try. i've gotten a couple of referrals, so we should be starting soon.
> 
> and he moved back in last night. only gone for 5 days. my gut tells me that that is the best thing for trying R. i don't think going in the direction of greater disengagement was helping us. i understand that it is _supposed _to help, so maybe i'm wrong.... but it just felt like we were slipping toward shutting down (which is a defense that both of us use).
> 
> having him back is no panacea either, because we are in such a strange place. we have been in really rough spots together since d-day, but right now it just feels.... weird.
> 
> it's not that i've given up completely (obviously, since he's back). maybe it's that i'm closer to giving up than ever before? or that having been here alone, even if only for a few days, made that possibility seem more real? or that i really see now how hard this will be, and how much work we will have to do (if we can)?
> 
> i'm just tired of having it hurt so much. and i want him to be better at this, to try harder or something
> 
> when he's here, i can't imagine how we will go on. when he's not here, i can't imagine not trying until there's nothing less to try.
> 
> it's been 7 months! shouldn't things be better by now?! it hasn't even gotten consistently better as time has gone by. it's more like a few steps forward, a few back....
> 
> tired, don't trust him, confused.


Margrace,

From everything I've read here on TAM one thing has so far held incredibly true. There is no "supposed to"

Every situation is different and therefore every R is different. You do what works for you.


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> EI...thank you so much for your kind words. Yes, Regret is a very beautiful woman. I tell her all the time. The sad part of me is that I have always told her...even during the 5 years of her affair. It never really reached her then. It does now.
> 
> You guys definitely helped me that day I almost walked. It was almost as difficult as Dday. I still don't have a full recollection of those 5 minutes, though...the minutes where I think my brain just couldn't take any more and it shut down and lashed out.
> 
> I hope that I have been good support for some on the board. I am pro-reconciliation, however sometimes it isn't for everyone. I hope to give sound advice and I pray for everyone in every situation.


Yes, Dig, you have providing great support for me and many others here! 

Some of the best support you have provided me know one even knows about because it was via email. Just want to say thanks for the help and support, and listening to me vent on those awful days. 

Hope all is well in the Dig household


----------



## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> This year.
> Halloween will be filled with fun.
> Thanksgiving will be filled with love.
> Christmas will be filled with the smells of baking and the laughter of my family.
> The holidays wont be the tense , desperate, finger pointing debacle they have become the last 2yrs.


Yes, I like this...this year our holidays will be full of love. Last Thanksgiving we spent seperate. It was not good. Never again will I leave him all alone at home while I go to my parents. Yes he could have come or went to his parents. Every year we normally have it at our house. I want Thanksgiving back no matter how stressful it is. Maybe we could add some new extra traditions in our holidays this year 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I have a small update too.

I talked to my wife about my trust issues. She said she already knew. As careful as I've tried to be to not cause her any grief or concern and she knew all along. She's obviously smarter than I am.

Anyway she had a suggestion that kind of threw me for a loop. She said I should contact my ex and see if I can get any answers. She said its been many years and maybe now she will be more polite (I doubt it). And she said if she is still a b!tch then maybe that's what I need to get closure. I think she'll still be nasty and it will open up an old wound that may be better off staying scarred over. I really don't know what to make of this. I'm feeling like if I contact my ex I am betraying my wife. She said she's fine with it but it doesn't feel fine to me. Anyone have any opinions on this?


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> Margrace...yes it should be better then it is right now. But this is where you are and as I say sometimes, it is what it is.
> 
> You have to work with what you have. Hopefully, counseling will really help this time. Maybe this counselor will get through to him. Maybe you standing firm and keeping your boundaries will open his eyes.
> 
> Is he open to talking at all right now, or is he closed off?


thank you, dear calvin, bfree, and B1:

he's somewhat open to talking. he's more exhausted and emotional and raw than usual, which isn't really helping him talk, but what he does say is less superficial.

at the same time, there is something that feels a bit closed off. i think the experience of having me literally help him pack his bags and lock the door behind him really shook him, and i don't think he thought he would ever be coming back.

he seems a little broken.

it's so strange, i just realized something. as much as i feel that i am falling apart (and i am), i realize that i think i am a little more together right now than he is -- _and i'm the BS_.

i am pretty much a puddle and being alone was scary and sad for me. but i don't feel broken in the same way. i don't know, maybe i just want to believe that, maybe i'm fooling myself


----------



## calvin

Upu packed his bags and sent him out,that will go far in waking him up,good job


----------



## bfree

margrace said:


> thank you, dear calvin, bfree, and B1:
> 
> he's somewhat open to talking. he's more exhausted and emotional and raw than usual, which isn't really helping him talk, but what he does say is less superficial.
> 
> at the same time, there is something that feels a bit closed off. i think the experience of having me literally help him pack his bags and lock the door behind him really shook him, and i don't think he thought he would ever be coming back.
> 
> he seems a little broken.
> 
> it's so strange, i just realized something. as much as i feel that i am falling apart (and i am), i realize that i think i am a little more together right now than he is -- _and i'm the BS_.
> 
> i am pretty much a puddle and being alone was scary and sad for me. but i don't feel broken in the same way. i don't know, maybe i just want to believe that, maybe i'm fooling myself


Nope, you took charge and that always makes you feel more in control. Its what is recommended after existing in chaos for so long. You are centered. And the reason it shook him is because you didn't react the way he thought you would. You tossed his idea of who you are out the window. You created a crisis in his mind that now he has to deal with. Hopefully it will help him to do some self reflection and begin working to repair the damage he has caused. Keep up the positive and strong framework you have built. It will serve you well regardless of what happens.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> I have a small update too.
> 
> I talked to my wife about my trust issues. She said she already knew. As careful as I've tried to be to not cause her any grief or concern and she knew all along. She's obviously smarter than I am.
> 
> Anyway she had a suggestion that kind of threw me for a loop. She said I should contact my ex and see if I can get any answers. She said its been many years and maybe now she will be more polite (I doubt it). And she said if she is still a b!tch then maybe that's what I need to get closure. I think she'll still be nasty and it will open up an old wound that may be better off staying scarred over. I really don't know what to make of this. I'm feeling like if I contact my ex I am betraying my wife. She said she's fine with it but it doesn't feel fine to me. Anyone have any opinions on this?


bfree, I'll let one of the guys respond to your question, but I do have one comment that couldn't wait. You may have married a b!tch on your first trip down the aisle, but you married quite a lady the second time around. Do whatever you need to do, you have your wife's blessing, but get whatever closure you need so that your ex-wife doesn't take up any more space in your head. You owe it to yourself and your very understanding wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace, you are doing an amazing job of holding yourself together. Just keep reminding yourself that you can't reconcile your marriage alone and your husband needs to be doing the heavy lifting, right now. If he is not on his best behavior, now, then when will he be? Stay strong..... 

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

bfree said:


> I have a small update too.
> 
> I talked to my wife about my trust issues. She said she already knew. As careful as I've tried to be to not cause her any grief or concern and she knew all along. She's obviously smarter than I am.
> 
> Anyway she had a suggestion that kind of threw me for a loop. She said I should contact my ex and see if I can get any answers. She said its been many years and maybe now she will be more polite (I doubt it). And she said if she is still a b!tch then maybe that's what I need to get closure. I think she'll still be nasty and it will open up an old wound that may be better off staying scarred over. I really don't know what to make of this. I'm feeling like if I contact my ex I am betraying my wife. She said she's fine with it but it doesn't feel fine to me. Anyone have any opinions on this?


Something sounds odd about that, I don't see why you should talk to your ex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

Empty Inside said:


> margrace, you are doing an amazing job of holding yourself together. Just keep reminding yourself that you can't reconcile your marriage alone and your husband needs to be doing the heavy lifting, right now. If he is not on his best behavior, now, then when will he be? Stay strong.....
> 
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you for reminding me of that, EI. is he on his best behavior? doing the heavy lifting? i don't know. i guess if he were, i would know it. i'm kind of hanging on until the MC at this point. 

i took a look at the website of that guy who wrote _his needs, her needs_ because i have seen it mentioned here so much. just browsed through it, but one thing that struck me was the love bank. a little cheesy BUT i thought, yeah, that sounds like us: our love banks are kind of on the empty side right now.


----------



## EI

B1 told me to hurry up getting out of the bath tub tonight. He has a surprise waiting for me in the bedroom. I might not be back online until much later! ;-) 

Take care,
~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> Yes, Dig, you have providing great support for me and many others here!
> 
> Some of the best support you have provided me know one even knows about because it was via email. Just want to say thanks for the help and support, and listening to me vent on those awful days.
> 
> Hope all is well in the Dig household


Thank you my Brother.

All is well in the Dig household. I just want to let everyone know a huge milestone that was hit today. Personal. Very personal.

Today was the 1 year anniversary of my being home for good. It was 1 year ago today that was my first day being home without the worry of being called out on any flying trips. I woke up that morning one year ago...it was a Saturday, and I performed a wedding for 2 wonderful people. They are a delightful young couple, who I made sure to say Happy Anniversary to on their FB profile. It was the beginning of the new Dig.

It was also the beginning of the new Dig in the respect that I became even more of a family man. I made breakfast for my children and packed their lunches. I put them on the school bus for the first time ever. I recall that day I did so, because I touched my back pocket where my wallet was. I felt that there was no money there...yet, because I had just put my two lovely children on the bus for the first time ever...I was the most successful person in the world - even with no cash in my pocket. 

It also meant that I was always going to wake up in the morning with my beloved Regret. My life. I no longer had to field the question from my little girl, who would ask me every night if I "had to go away" the next day. I am so blessed that I am home every day and every night with all of them.

Yes, it also only took me 5 months after this 1 year anniversary to discover that Regret had been cheating on me. Yes, I thought that my being home made a difference in our relationship and marriage. I honestly thought we were doing better than we were.

I was wrong. And that's the beginning of our reconciliation story. It absolutely f'ng sucks how we got to this point. However, I'm glad we're here. I hate what she did, but I love who she is...right now. Today.

I love who I am. I love feeling like a full part of my family's life. I love that I am a strong man. That I am someone who people look at and even say, "Holy sh-t! I wish I could do that". 

Guess what? You can. Take anything...ANYTHING in your life and make a decision. That is how change happens. It doesn't take 21 days to break a habit. It takes the power within each and every one of us to say "THIS is what I want". And then. Do It.

Thank you B1 for letting me answer your emails. And thank you for heeding any feedback I may have given you. I have never met you and I feel a kinship. And to anyone else (I'm thinking about a certain Soundgarden fan) I hope that any of my words and struggles somehow have helped you.

Peace, Love and Respect to all. Regret and I are going to bed. See you tomorrow.

(Hmmm...seems like a very EI'ish post )


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I love who she is...right now. Today.
> 
> I love who I am. I love feeling like a full part of my family's life. I love that I am a strong man. That I am someone who people look at and even say, "Holy sh-t! I wish I could do that".
> 
> Guess what? You can. Take anything...ANYTHING in your life and make a decision. That is how change happens. It doesn't take 21 days to break a habit. It takes the power within each and every one of us to say "THIS is what I want". And then. Do It.
> 
> Thank you B1 for letting me answer your emails. And thank you for heeding any feedback I may have given you. I have never met you and I feel a kinship. And to anyone else (I'm thinking about a certain Soundgarden fan) I hope that any of my words and struggles somehow have helped you.
> 
> Peace, Love and Respect to all. Regret and I are going to bed. See you tomorrow.


_I was just reading away.... oooohing and aaaahing and smiling, hand over heart, then....... *BOOM*.......... I don't know whether I should be insulted or flattered!   _




SomedayDig said:


> (Hmmm...seems like a very EI'ish post )


:iagree: Glad you had a great day and that things are going well in the Dig & Regret household............. _JERK_


----------



## jh52

Morning All --


----------



## calvin

Morning peoples
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Good Morning Everyone.......... _(But, I'm really not a morning person, ya know!) _:sleeping:


----------



## SomedayDig

LOL...EI, that would be flattery you should feel! 

It looked really long after I wrote it and how could I NOT think of you?!

Good morning everyone. Busy day for me. Sales meeting and then a finance meeting and then listing someone's house for sale so they can build a new home...which I'm also selling them! Oh. I guess I never said I got into real estate after the whole flying gig.


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> All is well in the Dig household. I just want to let everyone know a huge milestone that was hit today. Personal. Very personal.


Just wanted to say congrats on that personal milestone. I know how important those milestones are and that they are a really GOOD thing, so I'm happy for you!!

oh and morning all


----------



## B1

bfree said:


> I have a small update too.
> 
> I talked to my wife about my trust issues. She said she already knew. As careful as I've tried to be to not cause her any grief or concern and she knew all along. She's obviously smarter than I am.
> 
> Anyway she had a suggestion that kind of threw me for a loop. She said I should contact my ex and see if I can get any answers. She said its been many years and maybe now she will be more polite (I doubt it). And she said if she is still a b!tch then maybe that's what I need to get closure. I think she'll still be nasty and it will open up an old wound that may be better off staying scarred over. I really don't know what to make of this. I'm feeling like if I contact my ex I am betraying my wife. She said she's fine with it but it doesn't feel fine to me. Anyone have any opinions on this?


bfree...not sure on this one, wow. That's one understanding and secure wife you have though. Sounds like a keeper 

If she says it's ok, then I am sure it's really ok. However, I'm not sure your ex will help you. Wow, tough call, but it's going to have to come down to you bfree, wish I had something more to give you.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> thank you for reminding me of that, EI. is he on his best behavior? doing the heavy lifting? i don't know. i guess if he were, i would know it. i'm kind of hanging on until the MC at this point.
> 
> i took a look at the website of that guy who wrote _his needs, her needs_ because i have seen it mentioned here so much. just browsed through it, but one thing that struck me was the love bank. a little cheesy BUT i thought, yeah, that sounds like us: our love banks are kind of on the empty side right now.


margrace, ours were heavily overdrawn, no, take that back, our love bank accounts were closed....we had nothing there. So, if it's possible to come back from that, perhaps there is hope for you too.

Hopefully, you two will make some deposites this week


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> margrace, ours were heavily overdrawn, no, take that back, our love bank accounts were closed....we had nothing there. So, if it's possible to come back from that, perhaps there is hope for you too.
> 
> Hopefully, you two will make some deposites this week


thank you for those thoughts!

B!, how did you hold on during those times when the accounts were closed, and EI was still attached to her AP? 

EI, how did you hang on when your heart was somewhere else?

feels like it would be so easy (and at the same time, so sad) to let go today....


----------



## ChangingMe

Dig, your post made me tear up. Congrats on your milestone, and though I haven't been following you and your wife's story for long, I am so glad the two of you are in a good place. 

I loved this part of your post. It really speaks to me, and gives me hope that I can be better than I've been. 



SomedayDig said:


> Guess what? You can. Take anything...ANYTHING in your life and make a decision. That is how change happens. It doesn't take 21 days to break a habit. It takes the power within each and every one of us to say "THIS is what I want". And then. Do It.


Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Acabado

SomedayDig said:


> *Guess what? You can. Take anything...ANYTHING in your life and make a decision. That is how change happens. It doesn't take 21 days to break a habit. It takes the power within each and every one of us to say "THIS is what I want". And then. Do It.*


Worth repeating and bolding. Touching life lesson.
Congrats to you Dig.
And thanks.

t/j
See new people joining this warm fire. Hello CM.


----------



## ChangingMe

Acabado said:


> t/j
> See new people joining this warm fire. Hello CM.


Hello and thank you. Still don't quite feel like I qualify to post here, but it is a great source of hope, and I need that after spending time on my own thread. I read through here a lot. I appreciate all of you for posting and sharing your stories.


----------



## margrace

_It takes the power within each and every one of us to say "THIS is what I want". And then. Do It._

dig, i see that i am just ditto-ing everyone else here, but what a great post, and i am going to hold on to to this today! thanks for sharing your milestone with us :smthumbup:


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> Hello and thank you. Still don't quite feel like I qualify to post here, but it is a great source of hope, and I need that after spending time on my own thread. I read through here a lot. I appreciate all of you for posting and sharing your stories.


hello, cm! yes, i often feel a similar way... that lots of the posters here seem so inspiring while i am currently so unclear and changeable.

i am using their stories as a touchstone. the fact that they share struggles and missteps and confusion, and that they affirm that there is no one single right path to R (or_ out_ of R) is exactly what helps me so much. 

it's weird -- the advice that i've gotten all over TAM has really helped AND at the same time, i don't seem to get as much from statements that sound like "all WSs are X, so BSs must always do Y." i don't deny that there is often lots of truth in those pointers -- this is just about how *i'm* made and what moves *me* and speaks *to me. *

so welcome and i look forward to learning more about you.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> thank you for those thoughts!
> 
> B!, how did you hold on during those times when the accounts were closed, and EI was still attached to her AP?
> 
> EI, how did you hang on when your heart was somewhere else?
> 
> feels like it would be so easy (and at the same time, so sad) to let go today....


It wasn't easy margrace or fun. One thing is that we had to stick it out for a while because we were stuck together. Finances would not allow for either of us to move out or seperate. 

I had changed that's just it, and we needed time for her to get to know this new me and to believe this change was permanent. 

Since we had nothing but time we talked, EI was not closed off at all, this made all the difference. She would talk, and we did for hours on end, every day. Sometimes she got angry, defensive but she would atleast talk to me. Even though she was done with me, and had pretty much moved on she still talked to me. (EI is a talker
if you have not noticed  )

She knew right away I was different, changed. She just didn't trust that it was permanent yet.

I just held on to the belief that she would come back around, and since we had nothing but time, I held on to that belief. You see, since she was gone, it was me that had to do the initial work, it was me that had to check back into the marriage, to make the first move. We had both checked out long ago.

I just kept coming at her with questions, with love, with compassion, with open arms. I talked her ear off, I think this sort of shocked her, she was seeing this new me and wanted to get to know this person. Again, since we had the time, she opened up. We talked more and more and eventually she started doing some lifting also, she started seeing my pain and she started realizing what she did, the fog was lifting...

The rest, well, I think the rest is here and in our orginal thread. You can see it sort of play out there.


----------



## calvin

Not easy is an understatement.
It still hurts but after 7 1/2 months Im sure I can
finally say I've stopped my flip-flopping and and dont ever want to be away from CSS.
I'll never get why she had to do this,just sucks so
bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> It wasn't easy margrace or fun. One thing is that we had to stick it out for a while because we were stuck together. Finances would not allow for either of us to move out or seperate.
> 
> I had changed that's just it, and we needed time for her to get to know this new me and to believe this change was permanent.
> 
> Since we had nothing but time we talked, EI was not closed off at all, this made all the difference. She would talk, and we did for hours on end, every day. Sometimes she got angry, defensive but she would atleast talk to me. Even though she was done with me, and had pretty much moved on she still talked to me. (EI is a talker
> if you have not noticed  )
> 
> She knew right away I was different, changed. She just didn't trust that it was permanent yet.
> 
> I just held on to the belief that she would come back around, and since we had nothing but time, I held on to that belief. You see, since she was gone, it was me that had to do the initial work, it was me that had to check back into the marriage, to make the first move. We had both checked out long ago.
> 
> I just kept coming at her with questions, with love, with compassion, with open arms. I talked her ear off, I think this sort of shocked her, she was seeing this new me and wanted to get to know this person. Again, since we had the time, she opened up. We talked more and more and eventually she started doing some lifting also, she started seeing my pain and she started realizing what she did, the fog was lifting...
> 
> The rest, well, I think the rest is here and in our orginal thread. You can see it sort of play out there.


thanks so much... yes, my WH unfortunately is not/never has been a talker. that would help! in addition, i don't think i have just BEEN THERE as relentlessly and consistently as you were.

i'm there for periods of time with commitment and the best of intentions. and then i think of something, or notice something, or find something out, and then i'm _not_ so there anymore.

maybe now that we have (finally) decided to go to MC, this is the time to really try to be there, and even with my pain and angry feelings.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> thanks so much... yes, my WH unfortunately is not/never has been a talker. that would help! in addition, i don't think i have just BEEN THERE as relentlessly and consistently as you were.
> 
> i'm there for periods of time with commitment and the best of intentions. and then i think of something, or notice something, or find something out, and then i'm _not_ so there anymore.
> 
> maybe now that we have (finally) decided to go to MC, this is the time to really try to be there, and even with my pain and angry feelings.


pain and angry feelings I get. I still get angry occasionally, however I can actually control it pretty well. I can look at EI and say, "I am very angry at you right now...angry that you did....." without cursing or turning red. Then I can let it go. I have learned to NOT hold it in. And she is really good now at letting me vent these emotions, as long as I am controlled she always just sits there and takes it, usually tells me she's sorry. 

So, do try to control your anger, if you loose it you get nowhere as you have probably learned. If I loose it I definitely get nowhere with EI fast. She will shut down or bite back, usually a mix of both. She's a scrapper that little lady is, but I love her!

I would say now to try and keep communications open, get him to talk, maybe not always about the A, talk about other things too.
Let him know you love him and want to work this out. But, do stand firm in that he has to give also. He's going to have to put forth effort also. You cannot do this alone.

I am sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. I just wish I could light a fire under his rear and get him moving for you. It has to be so frustrating for you, sorry.

Something just occured to me, could he be depressed?
has this been mentioned already, maybe he should see a doctor about depression?


----------



## ChangingMe

Good morning, all. Hope all of you had a good evening. Ours wasn't great, but neither was it bad -I had a meeting after work (we have a fundraiser in a couple weeks) so I didn't get home till 7. We did watch the debates together, but didn't talk much -mostly surface stuff. 

I am hoping DD and I can meet for lunch today. I asked him to, and he said he'll know in about an hour whether his schedule will allow for it. I half expected him to just tell me no, that he didn't want to, so I'm fairly content with the fact that he's looking to see if he can. 

His birthday is Sunday, and his parents are going to take the kids on Saturday morning after our son's 9am football game, which gives us all day and all night to celebrate. I would love to plan something great for the 2 of us, but it's hard because I don't know where he will be emotionally that day. I'm praying that we can have a really good time, but how he's feeling today may be totally different from how he's feeling Saturday. 

So that's us right now: he's been sleeping in our bed with me for the past week (he'd been upstairs for about week prior to that), and he says that he's feeling good internally, but that doesn't mean that he wants to be close or overly nice to me right now. I really am trying to take each day as it comes and try not to stress about what the future holds. I'm trying to show him each day that I am not who I was 4 months ago and that I can be faithful, trustworthy, and show him the love he deserves. I know it's going to take a whole lot longer than 4 months to do this, but I'm in this for the long haul.


----------



## B1

ChangingMe said:


> Good morning, all. Hope all of you had a good evening. Ours wasn't great, but neither was it bad -I had a meeting after work (we have a fundraiser in a couple weeks) so I didn't get home till 7. We did watch the debates together, but didn't talk much -mostly surface stuff.
> 
> I am hoping DD and I can meet for lunch today. I asked him to, and he said he'll know in about an hour whether his schedule will allow for it. I half expected him to just tell me no, that he didn't want to, so I'm fairly content with the fact that he's looking to see if he can.
> 
> His birthday is Sunday, and his parents are going to take the kids on Saturday morning after our son's 9am football game, which gives us all day and all night to celebrate. I would love to plan something great for the 2 of us, but it's hard because I don't know where he will be emotionally that day. I'm praying that we can have a really good time, but how he's feeling today may be totally different from how he's feeling Saturday.
> 
> So that's us right now: he's been sleeping in our bed with me for the past week (he'd been upstairs for about week prior to that), and he says that he's feeling good internally, but that doesn't mean that he wants to be close or overly nice to me right now. I really am trying to take each day as it comes and try not to stress about what the future holds. I'm trying to show him each day that I am not who I was 4 months ago and that I can be faithful, trustworthy, and show him the love he deserves. I know it's going to take a whole lot longer than 4 months to do this, but I'm in this for the long haul.



CM, yes, sorry to say his emotions will be all over the place. You should still go ahead and plan something nice.
If it doesn't work, he will at least know you tried. That does count.

All you can do is keep trying, keep showing your love and support, your understanding and compassion. Really try not to get defensive if he looses it. When you feel the need to say sorry, say it. Also, Your actions speak volumes, but words, well, they mean a lot too. The absence of them and the acknowledgment of them all have an affect on us BS's.

Keep talking though..that's so important. Ask him often if he's okay, EI does this for me ALL the time. She is very in tuned to me right now. If I breath wrong she picks up on it and asks if I am okay. If I am not, she says "OK what is it, let's talk about it". She is available for me and I KNOW IT, that really helps me. He is insecure enough right now, knowing you are there 110% for him whenever he needs you is important, at least to me it is.


----------



## Broken at 20

I know I may be stepping on toes, but I am trying to still figure out the mind of the BS. 

But if you did not have kids, would you have reconciled? 
Or would you have divorced?
Did they contribute to your decision to try it? 
Or did you not even take them into consideration? 
And at what point do or would you stop taking them into consideration?


----------



## SomedayDig

Broken at 20 said:


> I know I may be stepping on toes, but I am trying to still figure out the mind of the BS.
> 
> But if you did not have kids, would you have reconciled?
> Or would you have divorced?
> Did they contribute to your decision to try it?
> Or did you not even take them into consideration?
> And at what point do or would you stop taking them into consideration?


I don't think you're stepping on anyone's toes. My situation is this: I was married previously...she had an affair. We did NOT have children and I had been with her for 10 years. We tried to reconcile, however she continued to see the guy and go away on trips with him. This was the early-mid 90's and TAM wasn't around then. MC did NOT help at all before I caught her again. I told her exactly what I've told Regret. You have ONE CHANCE. Period. Well, she (my ex-wife) took that for granted. I filed for separation/divorce immediately.

My children now, with Regret were a part of the equation, yes. However, that is NOT the reason to stay. I come from a broken home. I know what it was like when my Mom "stayed for us". I know how much guilt I had for us being in such a f'd up household. It took me a few years of therapy to realize that it wasn't about me. It was about my Mom.

I wouldn't stay here just for our children. Did I look up the stairs that night on Dday. Absolutely. In the end, though, our reconciliation has to do with Regret and me.


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> t/j
> See new people joining this warm fire. Hello CM.


No thread jacking from you, Acabado, is possible!  Welcoming new posters to share their stories is exactly what I hope to see our regular posters on this thread doing. I want anyone, at whatever stage of Coping With Infidelity they are in, to feel welcomed, and safe, sharing their stories here.

Thanks for being a contributor on the Reconciliation thread. I'd like to think that this thread has evolved into a place where people can share their stories, and give and receive support and encouragement to one another, without the fear of others projecting their own past negative outcomes onto them. We share it all. The good, the bad and everything in between. I don't think that any of us have sugarcoated our pain, our difficulties, our challenges, our setbacks, our failures, or any part of the reconciliation process.

But, we seem to share a common belief that every reconciliation is unique and that every individual, BS's and WS's, alike, deserve the respect to be able to _honestly_ express themselves without the fear of being demoralized. And, yes, I said it. WS's are humans and deserve to be treated with respect as well. I've mentioned this on another thread, but it bears repeating. _"We are adults and we can use this forum for good or use it to tear others down. The way you choose to use it speaks of your character, only,.... not the one whose character you are scrutinizing."_

Reconciliation is a process that evolves over time. I think it's important to understand that we need to "meet people where they are" rather than demanding that they yield into what we think they should be. 

Once again, Acabado, thank you for your contributions to this thread and to TAM!

Take care,
EI


----------



## EI

Broken at 20 said:


> I know I may be stepping on toes, but I am trying to still figure out the mind of the BS.
> 
> But if you did not have kids, would you have reconciled?
> Or would you have divorced?
> Did they contribute to your decision to try it?
> Or did you not even take them into consideration?
> And at what point do or would you stop taking them into consideration?


You are not stepping on anyone's toes. I haven't gotten around to commenting on any of your posts, yet, but I have read many of them. As a mother of 5 children, ages, 25, 23, 22, 19, and 17, the youngest 4 being sons, I can tell you that you have shown wisdom beyond your years.

You are in an extremely tough situation, at home, and my heart goes out to you. I'm so sorry that your parents have put you in the middle of their issues. You are a wonderful example for your younger siblings and although there is a lot of hurt and confusion going on in your household, right now, they will eventually understand the position you were unfairly put in and admire you for the way that you handled yourself and looked after them to the best of your ability during this time. 

Keep going to school, keep working..... I promise it will pay off in the long run. When you have to work extra hard for something, you will appreciate it so much more. I truly believe that you are going to accomplish great things in this life. I wish my sons had your motivation and determination. When reading your comments I am, sometimes, amazed that you are only 20 years old. 

I will not address your question since it was directed to the BS's and I was the WS.... something that I will regret for the rest of my life. But, I will tell you that I believe there will come a time when both of your parents will regret their behavior. You mother is hurt, right now. It is incomprehensible to me that she will remain angry with you for very long. She is projecting the hurt from your father's betrayal onto you. Your father.... well, I don't know....

Please post here, anytime. Like I said, I think you have a tremendous amount of wisdom for such a young man.

~EI


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> Hello and thank you. Still don't quite feel like I qualify to post here, but it is a great source of hope, and I need that after spending time on my own thread. I read through here a lot. I appreciate all of you for posting and sharing your stories.





margrace said:


> hello, cm! yes, i often feel a similar way... that lots of the posters here seem so inspiring while i am currently so unclear and changeable.



The great thing about the Reconciliation thread is that the only qualification you need is......., well, there isn't any. Just a want or need to pour your heart out. That's what we all do! <3

Otherwise, B1 and I would just be talking to ourselves! 

~EI


----------



## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> pain and angry feelings I get. I still get angry occasionally, however I can actually control it pretty well. I can look at EI and say, "I am very angry at you right now...angry that you did....." without cursing or turning red. Then I can let it go. I have learned to NOT hold it in. And she is really good now at letting me vent these emotions, as long as I am controlled she always just sits there and takes it, usually tells me she's sorry.
> 
> So, do try to control your anger, if you loose it you get nowhere as you have probably learned. If I loose it I definitely get nowhere with EI fast. She will shut down or bite back, usually a mix of both. She's a scrapper that little lady is, but I love her!
> 
> I would say now to try and keep communications open, get him to talk, maybe not always about the A, talk about other things too.
> Let him know you love him and want to work this out. But, do stand firm in that he has to give also. He's going to have to put forth effort also. You cannot do this alone.
> 
> I am sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. I just wish I could light a fire under his rear and get him moving for you. It has to be so frustrating for you, sorry.
> 
> Something just occured to me, could he be depressed?
> has this been mentioned already, maybe he should see a doctor about depression?


Calvin is the same way. He will tell me he can't stop thinking about it and that he's not feeling good emotionally. No yelling just tells me how he feels. There are time I feel paralized when he is feeling upset. It's not easy but we get through it just like you two are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

As I sit here and read everyone's stories I just want to say : It is never too late to change. It's nice to see that I am not the only one making alot of changes..WS' and BS' around here have been working on changing and I think it's awesome 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I read something recently that literally brought tears to my eyes. I thought that those who post in this thread could uniquely appreciate this.

In his book Dr. James Dobson reprints a letter he wrote to his wife during a Marriage Retreat. He talks about all the trials and tribulations they have gone through together and he expresses how large a place in his heart his wife truly holds.

_What then, my sweet wife? To whom will I turn for solace and comfort? To whom can I say, "I'm hurting!" and know that I am understood in more than an abstract manner? To whom can I turn when the summer leaves begin to change colors and fall to the ground? How much I have enjoyed the springtime and the warmth of the summer sun. The flowers and the green grass and the blue sky and the clear streams have been savored to their fullest. But alas, autumn is coming. Even now, I can feel a little nip in the air - and I try not to look at a distant, lone cloud that passes near the horizon. I must face the fact that winter lies ahead - with its ice and sleet and snow to pierce us through. But in this instance, winter will not be followed by springtime, except in the glory of the life to come. With whom, then, will I spend that final season of my life. None but you...._


----------



## joe kidd

Pidge and I thoroughly inspected the new downstairs shower. We have deemed it structurally sound.


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Pidge and I thoroughly inspected the new downstairs shower. We have deemed it structurally sound.


So....all the plumbing is good? :rofl:


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> So....all the plumbing is good? :rofl:


Yep. Pipe laid perfectly. :smthumbup:


----------



## Juicer

joe kidd said:


> Yep. Pipe laid perfectly. :smthumbup:


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Yep. Pipe laid perfectly. :smthumbup:



It can be HARD to find a good PLUMBER to lay PIPE well enough. Especially if they know how to SWEAT a PIPE properly.


----------



## EI

Apparently, there isn't a HUGE difference between 17 year old guys and 40+ year old men when they start talking about getting laid they get all goofy and giggly! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Empty Inside said:


> Apparently, there isn't a huge difference between 17 year old guys and 40+ year old men when they start talking about getting laid they get all goofy and giggly!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ummm we were talking about plumbing woman. :rofl:


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> Yep. Pipe laid perfectly. :smthumbup:


Oh Holy Hell! Shaddup! I swear I will make tuna casserole for dinner! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> Oh Holy Hell! Shaddup! I swear I will make tuna casserole for dinner!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

SomedayDig said:


> It can be HARD to find a good PLUMBER to lay PIPE well enough. Especially if they know how to SWEAT a PIPE properly.


Well well, aren't you the "punny" one"?....:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

pidge70 said:


> Oh Holy Hell! Shaddup! I swear I will make tuna casserole for dinner!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boundaries,,,,tuna crosses them .


----------



## SomedayDig

pidge70 said:


> Well well, aren't you the "punny" one"?....:rofl:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Punny?! I'm talking about the importance of a pipe properly sweated by an adept plumber!!!


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> Punny?! I'm talking about the importance of a pipe properly sweated by an adept plumber!!!


Their minds are in the gutter. :scratchhead:


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> Ummm we were talking about plumbing woman. :rofl:


Well, so was I, of course! My delicate sensibilities are offended that you would suggest that I was implying otherwise! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Their minds are in the gutter. :scratchhead:


Swear to God...years ago, Regret and I had the house fitted with gutters. The dude's shirt read, "Keep your mind outta the gutter. That's our job!"

F'ng classic!


----------



## MattMatt

I wish my wife and I could have done what you all have done. 

Thinking back, I believe I might have been scared I could lose her and so I just swallowed all the hurt down. I never felt angry. I can remember feeling sick to my stomach, my stomach felt knotted and I felt heart-broken. My self-worth (never very good) was smashed into nothing. But I do not recall feeling angry.

I don't think we actually got back on track -as it were- until after my own affair.

I suppose my wife then knew something about how I felt about her affair, then.


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> Boundaries,,,,tuna crosses them .


----------



## pidge70

MattMatt said:


> I wish my wife and I could have done what you all have done.
> 
> Thinking back, I believe I might have been scared I could lose her and so I just swallowed all the hurt down. I never felt angry. I can remember feeling sick to my stomach, my stomach felt knotted and I felt heart-broken. My self-worth (never very good) was smashed into nothing. But I do not recall feeling angry.
> 
> I don't think we actually got back on track -as it were- until after my own affair.
> 
> I suppose my wife then knew something about how I felt about her affair, then.


----------



## Juicer

Empty Inside said:


> Apparently, there isn't a HUGE difference between 17 year old guys and 40+ year old men when they start talking about getting laid they get all goofy and giggly!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The great equalizier. 
The topic that men of any generation can talk about, and each generation will understand it. 

When I do business with a guy that is in his 50's, we are from separate generations! What can we talk about? 

A few weekends ago when I was working on Saturday with a young kid, he was 17. What do you think we talked about for his 8hour shift? 

Binds all men together. In a common quest.


----------



## MattMatt

pidge70 said:


>


Thanks, Pidge. That actually means a great deal to me.


----------



## MattMatt

Juicer said:


> The great equalizier.
> The topic that men of any generation can talk about, and each generation will understand it.
> 
> When I do business with a guy that is in his 50's, we are from separate generations! What can we talk about?
> 
> A few weekends ago when I was working on Saturday with a young kid, he was 17. What do you think we talked about for his 8hour shift?
> 
> Binds all men together. In a common quest.


Yes. And that common quest? The common topic? 

It is beer.


----------



## calvin

Juicer said:


> The great equalizier.
> The topic that men of any generation can talk about, and each generation will understand it.
> 
> When I do business with a guy that is in his 50's, we are from separate generations! What can we talk about?
> 
> A few weekends ago when I was working on Saturday with a young kid, he was 17. What do you think we talked about for his 8hour shift?
> 
> Binds all men together. In a common quest.


Plumbing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> Swear to God...years ago, Regret and I had the house fitted with gutters. The dude's shirt read, "Keep your mind outta the gutter. That's our job!"
> 
> F'ng classic!


There is a foundation repair guy around here. He has a shirt that says " I see your crack, call me to fill it".


----------



## pidge70

MattMatt said:


> Thanks, Pidge. That actually means a great deal to me.


You are most welcome my good man. I must go make snickerdoodles now. I also have to make cupcakes for a coworker's b'day and tuna casserole for dinner now.......lol

Try and get some rest Matt. I know it is late in your area. One of these days I do wish to hear you say the following....Pip pip, cheerio and all that rot........:rofl:


----------



## Juicer

calvin said:


> Plumbing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ain't my place to tell you what to call it.


----------



## pidge70

MattMatt said:


> Yes. And that common quest? The common topic?
> 
> It is beer.


Don't you gents drink ale?


----------



## calvin

When I was a scaffold carpender we had shirts that had a pic of a half naked woman on them.
It said "errection problems? Call Scaffold Builders Inc".
Some women took offense to our uniform,I still dont know why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

MattMatt said:


> Yes. And that common quest? The common topic?
> 
> It is beer.


I don't get beer.
Or alcohol...
Stupid liver...and kidneys.....
All I get is freaking V-8.


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> I wish my wife and I could have done what you all have done.
> 
> Thinking back, I believe I might have been scared I could lose her and so I just swallowed all the hurt down. I never felt angry. I can remember feeling sick to my stomach, my stomach felt knotted and I felt heart-broken. My self-worth (never very good) was smashed into nothing. But I do not recall feeling angry.
> 
> I don't think we actually got back on track -as it were- until after my own affair.
> 
> I suppose my wife then knew something about how I felt about her affair, then.


MM, I'm so sorry.... do you think that after all of these years that there would be any possibly of sitting down with your wife and telling her how you feel/felt? I guess if I've learned anything, at all, is that not everything is as hopeless as it might have seemed at one time. It isn't too late to go back and tell your wife, now, how much she hurt you and give her an opportunity to begin making amends to you now. I know you had an RA, but that isn't the same as her making amends to you. You could, both, help one another heal. Pull that old rug back up and get busy! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

pidge70 said:


> You are most welcome my good man. I must go make snickerdoodles now. I also have to make cupcakes for a coworker's b'day and tuna casserole for dinner now.......lol
> 
> Try and get some rest Matt. I know it is late in your area. One of these days I do wish to hear you say the following....Pip pip, cheerio and all that rot........:rofl:


Actually, I DO say cheerio! I say: "Well, cheerio, then!" when I finish work.

So some stereotypes are accurate! 

I have been known to address people as "old bean" or "old fruit" two other Britishisms.

And because of where I was born, I call people mate.

People from Stoke-on-Trent call people "duck" as in "Hello, me duck" (me being their pronunciation of my.)

I had great fun in California last year teaching people how to speak in the dialect of Birmingham (that's Birmingham, England, of course!)


----------



## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> MM, I'm so sorry.... do you think that after all of these years that there would be any possibly of sitting down with your wife and telling her how you feel/felt? I guess if I've learned anything, at all, is that not everything is as hopeless as it might have seemed at one time. It isn't too late to go back and tell your wife, now, how much she hurt you and give her an opportunity to begin making amends to you now. I know you had an RA, but that isn't the same as her making amends to you. You could, both, help one another heal. Pull that old rug back up and get busy!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We pretty much did this after my affair. She used her skills as a counsellor/psychologist to help me.

Oddly enough -or not- the thing that still hurts me now, all these years later, is my affair. I can forgive my wife, but I can't forgive myself, it seems.


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> You are most welcome my good man. I must go make snickerdoodles now. I also have to make cupcakes for a coworker's b'day and tuna casserole for dinner now.......lol


Our daughter loves to make up her own recipes for baking. She recently made Snickerdoodle cupcakes with brown sugar, cream cheese icing. She gets lots of recipes from Pinterest. She's a Pinterest freak! You know, I kind of think tuna noodle casserole sounds good.... But, I've never made one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Empty Inside said:


> Our daughter loves to make up her own recipes for baking. She recently made Snickerdoodle cupcakes with brown sugar, cream cheese icing. She gets lots of recipes from Pinterest. She's a Pinterest freak! You know, I kind of think tuna noodle casserole sounds good.... But, I've never made one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There will be no tuna here tonight.


----------



## MattMatt

joe kidd said:


> There will be no tuna here tonight.


I like tuna. Tuna, potato and mayo bake, with cheese on top. That's what I like.


----------



## joe kidd

MattMatt said:


> I like tuna. Tuna, potato and mayo bake, with cheese on top. That's what I like.


:crazy:


----------



## MattMatt

Juicer said:


> I don't get beer.
> Or alcohol...
> Stupid liver...and kidneys.....
> All I get is freaking V-8.


V-8 with Worcester Sauce? Maybe some Chilli sauce? That's not so bad!


----------



## MattMatt

joe kidd said:


> :crazy:


Dolphin friendly tuna, of course!:smthumbup:

Or you could have tuna surprise?

The surprise? There's no ****ing tuna in it!
:rofl:


----------



## calvin

I hate Tuna,CSS makes that crap sometimes.
Damn Limeys on this thread,think I'll jump in my auto,hit the motorway and crank thw wireless!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> I hate Tuna,CSS makes that crap sometimes.
> Damn Limeys on this thread,think I'll jump in my auto,hit the motorway and crank thw wireless!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My God, Sir! You could pass for a Brit! 

Just remember that the pavement is the sidewalk, that the car trunk is a car boot and that the Irish and the Brits drive on the wrong side of the road and you should find you have an absolutely spiffing time!:rofl:


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> My God, Sir! You could pass for a Brit!
> 
> Just remember that the pavement is the sidewalk, that the car trunk is a car boot and that the Irish and the Brits drive on the wrong side of the road and you should find you have an absolutely spiffing time!:rofl:


You Brits are allright M&M,I see my Scotts are going to vote on independence soon.
I'm mostly Scottish.The Northern part of Scotland is my surname..
M&M did you used to be a bobby?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Irish last name here. Mc............


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Irish last name here. Mc............


No wonder you like Taters
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

McMuffin? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> No wonder you like Taters
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mom is German. Taters and Beer. :smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Mom is German. Taters and Beer. :smthumbup:


Some cornbread and fried oakra and now youre talking McMuffin.....Mclovin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> You Brits are allright M&M,I see my Scotts are going to vote on independence soon.
> I'm mostly Scottish.The Northern part of Scotland is my surname..
> M&M did you used to be a bobby?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A bobby? No, that's not a job I have ever had.

I also have ancestors from Scotland.

Northern Scotland? Ah. The real Scotland, then?!:smthumbup:


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Some cornbread and fried oakra and now youre talking McMuffin.....Mclovin?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okra.Yes Cornbread. No.


----------



## calvin

no cornbread? Oh joe we're going to have issues


----------



## EI

Juicer said:


> I don't get beer.
> Or alcohol...
> Stupid liver...and kidneys.....
> All I get is freaking V-8.


I love V-8, with a couple of drops of Tabasco...... and some Vodka. Add a stalk of celery, Viola!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

WARNING: WARNING: WARNING

As this thread continues to grow at a rapid rate I need for there to be an understanding that the 2,000th post will be mine! The 1000th post was tragically ripped from my grasp...... POST # 2,000 is MINE!!!

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> no cornbread? Oh joe we're going to have issues


Calvin, I make old-fashioned corn meal corn bread in my Dad's cast iron skillet.... That's the good stuff..... Dipped in milk. You are soooooo from Kentucky......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Empty Inside said:


> Calvin, I make old-fashioned corn meal corn bread in my Dad's cast iron skillet.... That's the good stuff..... Dipped in milk. You are soooooo from Kentucky......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just never liked it.


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> WARNING: WARNING: WARNING
> 
> As this thread continues to grow at a rapid rate I need for there to be an understanding that the 2,000th post will be mine! The 1000th post was tragically ripped from my grasp...... POST # 2,000 is MINE!!!
> 
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you get #2000 -- I will post #2001 -- then go delete a post I made before #2000 --then I will get #2000 and you will get #1999 !!!

:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:



:lol::lol::lol:

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

Sorry Empty,I cant let you do that


----------



## calvin

That how my Mom makes it but putting it in milk? I never liked that.
Peanuts in mu rootbeer...oh yeah!


----------



## calvin

You like oakra,good nough


----------



## joe kidd

Can't stand Root beer either. LOL


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> Can't stand Root beer either. LOL


Honestly, what do we have in common? Oh yeah! We BOTH think YOU are uber hot!....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Can't stand Root beer either. LOL


WHAT?!!!!!

What about Birch Beer? I love both. 

Well...at least you like Soundgarden. We got that in common. Now if you like Lamb of God, then I can totally see past the root beer comment.


----------



## MattMatt

joe kidd said:


> Can't stand Root beer either. LOL


I LOVE Root Beer! Broke my heart when McDs in the UK stopped selling it.


----------



## joe kidd

Pidge likes it but I can't even stand the smell of it.


----------



## EI

This thread has been jacked by $ex, I mean "laying pipe" and food tonight......oh well, sounds good to me...... carry on! 

JH and Calvin??? Don't even think about interfering with post # 2000. It's mine!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> This thread has been jacked by $ex, I mean "laying pipe" and food tonight......oh well, sounds good to me...... carry on!
> 
> JH and Calvin??? Don't even think about interfering with post # 2000. It's mine!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry Empty,I gotta do what I gotta do
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Now if I can get some biscuits n gravy.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

And bluegill in cornmeal..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty! mmmmm you make homemade cornbread and biscuits and gravy! We must come over. You can teach me then feed us lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

We would have so much fun talking too much and driving our hubbies crazy lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Can we get back to the plumbing thing already?


----------



## CantSitStill

really Dig?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

CantSitStill said:


> really Dig?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fine.


I like sausage gravy and biscuits with corn beef hash.



But I know how to sweat a pipe and make it fit properly!!! :rofl::rofl:


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Fine.
> 
> 
> I like sausage gravy and biscuits with corn beef hash.
> 
> 
> 
> But I know how to sweat a pipe and make it fit properly!!! :rofl::rofl:


I used to bury cable before I errected scaffolds
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> I read something recently that literally brought tears to my eyes. I thought that those who post in this thread could uniquely appreciate this.
> 
> In his book Dr. James Dobson reprints a letter he wrote to his wife during a Marriage Retreat. He talks about all the trials and tribulations they have gone through together and he expresses how large a place in his heart his wife truly holds.
> 
> _What then, my sweet wife? To whom will I turn for solace and comfort? To whom can I say, "I'm hurting!" and know that I am understood in more than an abstract manner? To whom can I turn when the summer leaves begin to change colors and fall to the ground? How much I have enjoyed the springtime and the warmth of the summer sun. The flowers and the green grass and the blue sky and the clear streams have been savored to their fullest. But alas, autumn is coming. Even now, I can feel a little nip in the air - and I try not to look at a distant, lone cloud that passes near the horizon. I must face the fact that winter lies ahead - with its ice and sleet and snow to pierce us through. But in this instance, winter will not be followed by springtime, except in the glory of the life to come. With whom, then, will I spend that final season of my life. None but you...._


bfree, you posted this beautiful letter from Dr. Dobson, someone that I have long admired, just before this thread took a tragic turn for the worse. With all of the "boys" posting on the thread at the same time, this type of locker room behavior was inevitable...... My apologies. 

Seriously, now, thank you very, very much. That was a beautiful letter and I appreciate you sharing it with us. I have several of Dr . Dobson's books. I don't think I could have gotten through the child-rearing years without them.

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I used to bury cable before I errected scaffolds
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You used to bury what? Are you talking about food or $ex (aka laying pipe) now... I am so confused! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Now if I can get some biscuits n gravy.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is this some kind of veiled threat? I feel like I am being extorted for my southern cooking in exchange for the 2000th post...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Empty! mmmmm you make homemade cornbread and biscuits and gravy! We must come over. You can teach me then feed us lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well c'mon, we have 8 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms....... I'll cook, but I do want you to show me how to make your lasagna. I never mastered lasagna.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Empty Inside said:


> Well c'mon, we have 8 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms....... I'll cook, but I do want you to show me how to make your lasagna. I never mastered lasagna.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Leave that to Regret....


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Is this some kind of veiled threat? I feel like I am being extorted for my southern cooking in exchange for the 2000th post...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry Empty,no not at all.
Its a flat out threat.
You'll never get that post unless I recieve Two dozen biscuits ( homemade) and four pounds of sausage gravy,also homemade.
I'm desperate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

somedaydig said:


> fine.
> 
> 
> I like sausage gravy and biscuits with corn beef hash.
> 
> 
> 
> But i know how to sweat a pipe and make it fit properly!!! :rofl::rofl:



*Diiiiiiiiiig,*

Okay biscuits and sausage gravy and sweaty pipes (whatever that is) for all........... B1 and I will get rid of the kids for a weekend and everyone can travel to Kentucky............. 

I'll cook all things Southern and Regret and CSS can make the lasagna!


----------



## B1

whoa..when the OP is away the mice will play. EI, I left you in charge and this thread goes to hell. Now, come in the bathroom I need some help, the drain is clogged and I need some help handling my snake  then we have some cable to run in the bedroom right after I erect the scaffolding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I'm sorry Empty,no not at all.
> Its a flat out threat.
> You'll never get that post unless I recieve Two dozen biscuits ( homemade) and four pounds of sausage gravy,also homemade.
> I'm desperate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are y'all coming to pick it up or am I required to ship it?

Just so you know, I am prepared to resort to all methods of shenanigans in order to get the 2000th post!


----------



## joe kidd

I have mastered lasagna


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> whoa..when the OP is away the mice will play. EI, I left you in charge and this thread goes to hell. Now, come in the bathroom I need some help, the drain is clogged and I need some help handling my snake  then we have some cable to run in the bedroom right after I erect the scaffolding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_*I know, I know, B1....  But, but, but........ it wasn't my fault, Honey, "THEY" did it. It's never my fault... you know that! : Kidding!!! *_

_Just kidding, okay people..... jus' kiddin'...._


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Well c'mon, we have 8 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms....... I'll cook, but I do want you to show me how to make your lasagna. I never mastered lasagna.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It'll be like National Lampoons x-mas vacation.
I'll bring my "house",a '72 beat up rv and park in front
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> I have mastered lasagna


*WHATEVER................ Joe!*

_Can you and Pidge throw together a salad, some french bread.... something???............... _


----------



## pidge70

betrayed1 said:


> whoa..when the OP is away the mice will play. EI, I left you in charge and this thread goes to hell. Now, come in the bathroom I need some help, the drain is clogged and I need some help handling my snake  then we have some cable to run in the bedroom right after I erect the scaffolding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> We would have so much fun talking too much and driving our hubbies crazy lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Well, you know, I'm not really much of a talker, but we'll have loads of fun!!!  
*


:rofl:


----------



## joe kidd

Empty Inside said:


> *WHATEVER................ Joe!*
> 
> _Can you and Pidge throw together a salad, some french bread.... something???............... _


I actually make a good lasagna. Italian sausage , real ricotta, tons of mozzarella.


----------



## pidge70

Empty Inside said:


> *WHATEVER................ Joe!*
> 
> _Can you and Pidge throw together a salad, some french bread.... something???............... _


----------



## CantSitStill

oh my goodness it looks like everyone has gone mad lol this thread is getting crazy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> I actually make a good lasagna. Italian sausage , real ricotta, tons of mozzarella.


*Okay, Joe, you're in the kitchen with Regret and CSS, then!*


----------



## pidge70

Empty Inside said:


> *Okay, Joe, you're in the kitchen with Regret and CSS, then!*


:whip:


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


>


*Wow, you threw that together quick!
* :smthumbup:

_But, I was kind of thinking about a Caesar Salad.... Do you mind? _


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> :whip:


*Okay, okay......... jus' kiddin' 
*

_Geeeez...... ya lay down a little pipe with the guy and............ _


----------



## pidge70

Empty Inside said:


> *Wow, you threw that together quick!
> * :smthumbup:
> 
> _But, I was kind of thinking about a Caesar Salad.... Do you mind? _


----------



## calvin

Night ya'll...tired, 4 am...yippie!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


>


*Well, aren't you flexible?  Wait, don't answer that!!! 
*


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Night ya'll...tired, 4 am...yippie!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Night-Night, Calvin.......... :sleeping:*


----------



## CantSitStill

Ok so its breakfast of biscuits and gravy, then cornbread for lunch or brunch? Then a lasagna cook off with garlic break and bagged salad. For dinner Calvin's chicken pot pie..what's for desert? I know what all the men are gonna say lolol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Btw I love V8 too..we need to plan a drinking menu..I love my diet with Jack 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Btw I love V8 too..we need to plan a drinking menu..I love my diet with Jack
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



*We'll have some white beans and ham to go with the cornbread.....

Now, who is in charge of the drinking menu? *


----------



## EI

_Alrighty, *TAM*ers, B1 needs some help with his erect..... with erecting his scaffolding.......... 

ttyl..................._


----------



## CantSitStill

lol have fun, have a good and funfilled night of erecting the snake for the drain or pipe cleaning umm however you men put it lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin sunk my battleship or somthing like that..he said something about erupting and blowing so maybe I sunk his..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I want sushi. Going to bed to meet up with Regret.

Just sayin.

Goooooood night!


----------



## Broken at 20

You people been making a grocery list?


----------



## frank29

Empty Inside said:


> daisygirl,
> 
> I've probably had 2 or 3 meltdowns in the last several days that didn't have a thing to do with the "A." So, I think that the stress of planning and managing a party for 150 kids is enough to put anyone over the edge, much less someone in the midst of reconciliation.
> 
> So, was this a surprise party or did your son know that he was having such a huge 18th birthday party? Whatever the case, what a great mom you are for putting all of that together! I hope that he was happy and that, both, your son and your hubby appreciated all that you had to do to pull off something so spectacular, all while dealing with the stress of reconciliation.
> 
> Evenings and Sunday afternoons on the sofa with B1, that's what makes all the rest of everything we go through worthwhile. I love my cuddle time with B1. No matter how hard the day has been, even if he and I have been struggling with the aftermath of the A, at the end of day, I want to be in his arms, wrapped tight.... it's the most blissful place in the world. I guess that's when you know that "home" can be anywhere as long as you are with the one you love. Some days I get a little sad and wistful, wishing that he and I had not wasted all of those years being so sad, so angry, so defeated and so depressed. We, both, tried different things at different times, i.e., therapy, medication, etc., but for some reason we were never able to pull ourselves out of the oppression that kept us down for so long. Only when we realized that we had lost it all, (and we *had* lost it all..... we didn't _come close_ to losing ourselves and our marriage, we totally lost it,) did we realize how much love was still buried underneath all of the hurt and resentment. At the time, I thought that I had tried everything on Earth that I possibly could have, to get B1 to "wake-up" and re-join the land of the living. To this day, I still don't know what more I could have done at the time. But, if I could go back in time, back to February, 2011, I would tell myself.... try harder, try one more day, and another day, and another, and keep trying..... never leave your partner behind because that is what I had vowed to do on June 23, 1984.... to love, honor and cherish, for richer for poorer, for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others, 'til death do us part. That's what I would tell myself.......... I can't change yesterday, or the day before..... but, B1 and I have today, and every tomorrow that God allows us to share, 'til death do us part.
> 
> P.S. I love you, B1! I love you so much! <3


 My god child that brought back a few memoirs and a odd tear i just love what you have written that is what i thought about my X and our life together but she went into the fog and never came out thank you any away for bringing that feeling i had for my former girlfriend back it seemed i had lost it but i still have all that love and feeling for the next lady in my life


----------



## calvin

Dreamed about biscuits n gravy last night.
See what you people did? Now I gotta go to the corner cafe after work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Broken at 20 said:


> You people been making a grocery list?



Naw.......... Jus' a little long overdue, much needed, comic relief for a bunch of....... Hmmm.... people!


----------



## EI

frank29 said:


> My god child that brought back a few memoirs and a odd tear i just love what you have written that is what i thought about my X and our life together but she went into the fog and never came out thank you any away for bringing that feeling i had for my former girlfriend back it seemed i had lost it but i still have all that love and feeling for the next lady in my life


Thank you, frank.... well, it's obvious that while she may have left you hurting, you're not defeated and you will find love, again. Who knows, it could be right around the corner!


----------



## joe kidd

Pidge and I had a fight last night. The reason I mention it is because it was minor one. 2 mos ago it would have been turned into a monster. That's progress right?


----------



## CantSitStill

yes baby steps..also it's good to learn how to fight. Or rather learn how to have disagreements without actually fighting. Keep up the good work, I know it takes alot of patience 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

It started, I became an a$$ and then just backed off. In the past I would have just kept hammering.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> Pidge and I had a fight last night. The reason I mention it is because it was minor one. 2 mos ago it would have been turned into a monster. That's progress right?


Yes, you know it is. Actually, it was probably very good timing for the two of you to have a minor disagreement. You are, both, in such a better place, psychologically, than you've been in a very long time with one another. So, now you have "tested" this new breakthrough that you are experiencing and it held up. You got through it and it didn't turn into a monster. I would call that progress! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

It was all on me as well.


----------



## jh52

joe kidd said:


> It was all on me as well.


Joe you seem to be "learning" yourself alot better the last few days.

Keep up the good work my friend.


----------



## B1

joe kidd said:


> Pidge and I had a fight last night. The reason I mention it is because it was minor one. 2 mos ago it would have been turned into a monster. That's progress right?


absolutely, that's progress alright. Congrats for staying in control or backing off before it got out of control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frank29

joe kidd said:


> Pidge and I had a fight last night. The reason I mention it is because it was minor one. 2 mos ago it would have been turned into a monster. That's progress right?


Well done you two it is a very steep leaning curve but you will get to the top if you learn from each other great stuff


----------



## calvin

Morning all.
Sounds like a little progress joe,you said it was a minor arguement and no one flew off the handle.
You'll learn how to argue in a constructive,healthy way.
Keep trying,thats what counts,you're trying and I respect people who give it there best shot.
How about your niners? They're looking pretty good this year,only because your coach is our old quarterback. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Good morning...

Reconciliation and arguing....

Arguing is part of R, that's for sure. But we have got to do it constructively. No name calling, don't loose your cool, say your piece then allow your spouse to say there's without interupting. If things get to heated then just say your done, and learn to really be done with it, even if you didn't get the last word in. You can talk about it again later, Uh... I mean argue about it again later.

When arguing I have learned to be a good listener, if EI is making her case, I really listen, I acknowledge that I am listening even if I don't like it or agree with it. When she is done, or when she has gotten of subject(this happens most of the time sorry EI but you know it's true ) I will jump in and make my case. We have both really learned to do this well.

Arguing is going to be part of all this, it just is. You see us on here a lot of times being happy, silly, etc. but behind the scenes there is bickering, arguing and even some occasional yelling. It's part of the HARD work of going through R. So, for the lurkers out there, it's still hard on us even when you see the silly stuff, we are still working hard to make this work. The work is getting easier over time though.

And the silly stuff helps us too, it's like a mental break from all the pressures of what we are going through. It shows us our spouses funnier side, it lets the walls down some too, if they were up.

A little article I found on the subject here HERE


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> Good morning...
> 
> Reconciliation and arguing....
> 
> Arguing is part of R, that's for sure. But we have got to do it constructively.
> 
> A little article I found on the subject here HERE



Anyone who is dealing with reconciliation or, honestly, anyone who is in a relationship... with anyone, spouse, significant other, family, friends... that was a great article. Take a few minutes to read it.

Here is one little excerpt that I think B1 and I have always, instinctively, done when arguing..... who knew that we were on to something all of this time!!! 

*"To help your partner take it down a notch, inject a little humor or even a tender touch into your argument. Reach for his hand or make a joke — both gestures will help him feel less threatened and calm him down. Also, it can be helpful to have each of you repeat what the other one has just said before you respond to it, to make sure you're getting each other's messages."*


----------



## Acabado

Thanks B1, again a great link. Once day when I don't find myself so lazy I'll put my 2 cents on the subject of fighting fair. It was key to my reconciliation and it was a process. It toke me a while to make the decission and a huge commitment to fight fair, to don't bring her "sin" at every unrelated argument, to avoid physical gestures, such as eye rolling, evey time my wife disciplined the children or tried to impart moral lessons and alike. Then there's another step more to make, real forgiveness. I've been always very dense with it.

You are taking all the right steps way before I was able to. My deepest respects.


----------



## EI

*HAPPY 48TH BIRTHDAY, B1!!!
*
_ I LOVE WHEN YOUR BIRTHDAY COMES AROUND.... ANNNNNNND, NOT JUST BECAUSE WE ARE GOING OUT TO DINNER TONIGHT.....BUT, BECAUSE I HATE THE 4 1/2 MONTHS BETWEEN MINE AND YOURS WHEN IT "APPEARS" THAT I AM OLDER THAN YOU.  WHEN EVERYONE CAN, CLEARLY SEE, THAT THAT COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE TRUE! *WHATEVER..........*_  :   

I love you.......... I truly, truly do..............


----------



## Acabado

Happy birthday!


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> Thanks B1, again a great link. Once day when I don't find myself so lazy I'll put my 2 cents on the subject of fighting fair. It was key to my reconciliation and it was a process. *It toke me a while to make the decission and a huge commitment to fight fair, to don't bring her "sin" at every unrelated argument, to avoid physical gestures, such as eye rolling, evey time my wife disciplined the children or tried to impart moral lessons and alike.*Then there's another step more to make, real forgiveness. I've been always very dense with it.
> 
> You are taking all the right steps way before I was able to. My deepest respects.


Very good point, Acabado! Only once has one of our sons tried to _throw my indiscretion in my face_ when I was pointing out what I knew would be the negative consequences of a choice that he had made. He is my 19 y/o (turning 20 this month) and he has a "scrappy attitude" just like..... Well, I'm not mentioning *any* names... but it is genetic.....   I, calmly, reminded him that I am his mother, I love him, and I will be respected in my home. I told him that his actions and choices will affect his future much more than they will affect mine and that it was he whom I was concerned about. I, then, reminded him that living here is a privilege, at his age, not an entitlement!

Of course, I can't really use that argument with B1, can I???


----------



## calvin

Happy Birthday B1 !!
PM your address and I'll send you a Chicago style deep dish pizza,should get there in 4-5 days.
Should be ok to eat,I think,I hope. 
Happy B Day B1
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> *HAPPY 48TH BIRTHDAY, B1!!!
> *
> _ I LOVE WHEN YOUR BIRTHDAY COMES AROUND.... ANNNNNNND, NOT JUST BECAUSE WE ARE GOING OUT TO DINNER TONIGHT.....BUT, BECAUSE I HATE THE 4 1/2 MONTHS BETWEEN MINE AND YOURS WHEN IT "APPEARS" THAT I AM OLDER THAN YOU.  WHEN EVERYONE CAN, CLEARLY SEE, THAT THAT COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE TRUE! *WHATEVER..........*_  :
> 
> I love you.......... I truly, truly do..............


Damn B1 --- you and Mrs JH share the same birthday !!!:smthumbup::smthumbup:

Happy Birthday my friend.


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> Damn B1 --- you and Mrs JH share the same birthday !!!:smthumbup::smthumbup:
> 
> Happy Birthday my friend.



Awww..... Happy Birthday to Mrs. JH.... I hope she is feeling well today... and everyday, but especially today! <3


----------



## jh52

"I LOVE WHEN YOUR BIRTHDAY COMES AROUND.... ANNNNNNND, NOT JUST BECAUSE WE ARE GOING OUT TO DINNER TONIGHT"

EI -- what are your plans for dessert after B1's BD dinner ??

:smthumbup::smthumbup::lol::lol:


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> "I LOVE WHEN YOUR BIRTHDAY COMES AROUND.... ANNNNNNND, NOT JUST BECAUSE WE ARE GOING OUT TO DINNER TONIGHT"
> 
> EI -- what are your plans for dessert after B1's BD dinner ??
> 
> :smthumbup::smthumbup::lol::lol:


_Suffice it to say, he has already told me what he wants for dessert!!!............. 
_


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> _Suffice it to say, he has already told me what he wants for dessert!!!.............
> _


Guess we will talk to you guys on Monday then !! Have FUN !!

:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey B1 HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! Us October babies are the best 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

happy birthday, B1! wishing you and EI and your family many happy returns of the day


----------



## SomedayDig

Happy Birthday B1!!!! Hope you guys are having a great time.


----------



## B1

Thanks everyone for the birthday wishes. EI and I are out eating, she's in the bathroom right now, so thought I would pop on and see what's hapenning. Its really nice to see the happy birthdays, thanks again everyone. gotta run she's back..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

Happy birthday, B1 and Mrs. JH......hope the next year brings you joy and peace!


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> Thanks everyone for the birthday wishes. EI and I are out eating, she's in the bathroom right now, so thought I would pop on and see what's hapenning. Its really nice to see the happy birthdays, thanks again everyone. gotta run she's back..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LMAO!! You're a techno-geek just like me.

Oh...Regret's going to the bathroom...I'll just check out what's going on in TAMland!!

We are soooo alike! :rofl::rofl:


----------



## jh52

Regret214 said:


> Happy birthday, B1 and Mrs. JH......hope the next year brings you joy and peace!


Thanks for the positive words and thoughts Regret !!


----------



## SomedayDig

Ya know Jh...I'm an A$$.

I didn't wish your wife a Happy Birthday. My humble apologies!!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MRS. JH!!!!!!!!


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> Ya know Jh...I'm an A$$.
> 
> I didn't wish your wife a Happy Birthday. My humble apologies!!!
> 
> HAPPY BIRTHDAY MRS. JH!!!!!!!!


No problem Dig --- I was surprised that B1 had his BD today and just shared with EI that today was also Mrs JH's BD.

Hope you and Regret are having a great Friday night !!


----------



## SomedayDig

jh52 said:


> No problem Dig --- I was surprised that B1 had his BD today and just shared with EI that today was also Mrs JH's BD.
> 
> Hope you and Regret are having a great Friday night !!


We're watching a great "old" movie...The Bone Collector.

And then.........


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> We're watching a great "old" movie...The Bone Collector.
> 
> And then.........


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> We're watching a great "old" movie...The Bone Collector.
> 
> And then.........




And then......... you're gonna jump Regret's bones. I'm a terrible person!


----------



## Acabado

Silly post


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> And then......... you're gonna jump Regret's bones. I'm a terrible person!


Speaking of jumping on bones --- where the hell is B1 ??


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> Speaking of jumping on bones --- where the hell is B1 ??


I'm sure he'll be back on TAM, later, he's tied up right now!


----------



## SomedayDig

Awwwww...Regret has the sadz cuz she wanted to be my 1000th like. Someone else beat her to it.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> Speaking of jumping on bones --- where the hell is B1 ??


here I am....back home.
BTW, happy birthday to the Mrs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

SomedayDig said:


> We're watching a great "old" movie...The Bone Collector.
> 
> And then.........


I can collect my own bone........


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> I'm sure he'll be back on TAM, later, he's tied up right now!


I must be getting old !

My point was what are you or B1 even doing on TAM tonight.

You two should be doing the horizontal mambo. !!!:smthumbup:


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> here I am....back home.
> BTW, happy birthday to the Mrs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks B1 -- appeciate the good wishes.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Awwwww...Regret has the sadz cuz she wanted to be my 1000th like. Someone else beat her to it.


Is that some kind of dig, Dig?


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Is that some kind of dig, Dig?


EI -- It wasn't you who got # 1000 !!


----------



## ChangingMe

Happy birthday, B1 and Mrs. JH! 

DD's birthday is Sunday. In-laws are keeping the kids tomorrow night, and I just booked us a hotel room.  Got a fun day planned for tomorrow -driving range, bungee jumping (never been, but it will be DD's 4th time), good food, some drinks, then a room with a hot tub. I gotta admit I'm looking forward to a bit of HB . . .


----------



## pidge70

Hey B1!


----------



## B1

ChangingMe said:


> Happy birthday, B1 and Mrs. JH!
> 
> DD's birthday is Sunday. In-laws are keeping the kids tomorrow night, and I just booked us a hotel room.  Got a fun day planned for tomorrow -driving range, bungee jumping (never been, but it will be DD's 4th time), good food, some drinks, then a room with a hot tub. I gotta admit I'm looking forward to a bit of HB . . .


CM, that sounds wonderful. Good for you two!!
We had a hotel stay not to long ago and it was the BEST time we had in, well, forever.


----------



## B1

pidge70 said:


> Hey B1!


Well, I wasn't going to, but that pic did me in 

Thank you


----------



## calvin

Me and CSS got a jacuzzi suite back in the spring it was great,been to The Dells a few times in a jacuzzi cabin.
Time to do it again after the New Year,they have a really cool comedy club across the street
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Happy B-day B1 and Dig.


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> Me and CSS got a jacuzzi suite back in the spring it was great,been to The Dells a few times in a jacuzzi cabin.
> Time to do it again after the New Year,they have a really cool comedy club across the street
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You talking about the Wisconsin Dells? I always wanted to go there. Been trying to plan a trip to Pigeon Forge, TN with Joe one of these years.....just a little dream I suppose.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> You talking about the Wisconsin Dells? I always wanted to go there. Been trying to plan a trip to Pigeon Forge, TN with Joe one of these years.....just a little dream I suppose.


Yep Wisconsin Dells,had a blast,horse back ridding and all that good stuff.
I got a lot of dirty looks when I wore my Chicago Bears shirts.....screw the Cheeseheads!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

ChangingMe said:


> Happy birthday, B1 and Mrs. JH!
> 
> DD's birthday is Sunday. In-laws are keeping the kids tomorrow night, and I just booked us a hotel room.  Got a fun day planned for tomorrow -driving range, bungee jumping (never been, but it will be DD's 4th time), good food, some drinks, then a room with a hot tub. I gotta admit I'm looking forward to a bit of HB . . .


Have fun CM !!


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Empty Inside
> Only once has one of our sons tried to throw my indiscretion in my face when I was pointing out what I knew would be the negative consequences of a choice that he had made. He is my 19 y/o (turning 20 this month) and he has a "scrappy attitude" just like..... Well, I'm not mentioning any names... but it is genetic..... I, calmly, reminded him that I am his mother, I love him, and I will be respected in my home. I told him that his actions and choices will affect his future much more than they will affect mine and that it was he whom I was concerned about. I, then, reminded him that living here is a privilege, at his age, not an entitlement!


Do not know your full story Empty but if you were in need of recovery at one time you sure did demonstrate a very strong and healthy interaction with your son in your post above.

*It is very encouraging to see someone with the strength to take a stand that is good for everyone.*

Empty, I enjoyed your post and your strength!! 


Maybe think about changing your name from Empty Inside to Steel Inside?


----------



## CantSitStill

Mr Blunt said:


> Do not know your full story Empty but if you were in need of recovery at one time you sure did demonstrate a very strong and healthy interaction with your son in your post above.
> 
> *It is very encouraging to see someone with the strength to take a stand that is good for everyone.*
> 
> Empty, I enjoyed your post and your strength!!
> 
> 
> Maybe think about changing your name from Empty Inside to Steel Inside?


I second that, steel inside. You are a strong person 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Reconciliation is: One day being able to look at your wayward spouse and not have to verify everything. One day not looking at the GPS. One day not looking at the cell records.


----------



## CantSitStill

Last night was tough but we actually made it through alot of talking about the EA and were still able to keep a positive focus that we are better now. Yet we were still able to really talk about all of the uncomfortable things without freaking out so much. It was an ugly talk but good. I feel we both really know this will never ever happen again, no matter what. We will let no one and nothing get inbetween our marriage. We are stronger now and not afraid to communicate even when it's about things we don't like to talk about. God I love him so damn much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> Reconciliation is: One day being able to look at your wayward spouse and not have to verify everything. One day not looking at the GPS. One day not looking at the cell records.


Basically trusting again...I chose to do that months ago. Now there have been a few checkups on cell records since but it's rare. I really trust her now and it's nice. I firmly believe EI will never do that again. She hates what she did, what she had become. Here sorrow is genuine and her love is too. Add to that the fact I am nothing like the old me and our marriage is nothing like the old one either. So, trusting is easier because of this.


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Last night was tough but we actually made it through alot of talking about the EA and were still able to keep a positive focus that we are better now. Yet we were still able to really talk about all of the uncomfortable things without freaking out so much. It was an ugly talk but good. I feel we both really know this will never ever happen again, no matter what. We will let no one and nothing get inbetween our marriage. We are stronger now and not afraid to communicate even when it's about things we don't like to talk about. God I love him so damn much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, me and EI have had some rough talks too the last couple days. We made it through and it got ugly too. But we argued correctly and never got loud or anything like that. It got heated but we talked it all out. We communicate VERY well now.

Glad you all got through it CSS and you know, you are better for it. Don't hold it in is what I say about R. If you feel it, let it out, speak your peace and allow the other to speak there's.

It's so much about Communication!!!


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Reconciliation is: One day being able to look at your wayward spouse and not have to verify everything. One day not looking at the GPS. One day not looking at the cell records.


I rarely check after seven months.My radar is up and running and I wont spend my free time going through everything.
If my affairdar ever goes off again,Ky here I come.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> Basically trusting again...I chose to do that months ago. Now there have been a few checkups on cell records since but it's rare. I really trust her now and it's nice. I firmly believe EI will never do that again. She hates what she did, what she had become. Here sorrow is genuine and her love is too. Add to that the fact I am nothing like the old me and our marriage is nothing like the old one either. So, trusting is easier because of this.


Sounds like Calvin and me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> Happy birthday, B1 and Mrs. JH!
> 
> DD's birthday is Sunday. In-laws are keeping the kids tomorrow night, and I just booked us a hotel room.  Got a fun day planned for tomorrow -driving range, bungee jumping (never been, but it will be DD's 4th time), good food, some drinks, then a room with a hot tub. I gotta admit I'm looking forward to a bit of HB . . .


B1 and I had a weekend like this back in July. Wow, that was 3 months ago, things were much more complicated for us, at that time, than they are now (not that reconciliation is a cake-walk, now, or anything) but we had an amazing se..., I mean fun-filled weekend.... the only amenity that you're going to need isn't even on the list that you mentioned above....... no kids + hotel room = awesome *hysterical bonding*!!! 
The best part was that there was a performance, at the convention center, for deaf people going on downtown that weekend (no joke) and no one in the hotel could speak or hear..... that turned out to be a blessing in disguise!!! 
We only got out of the bed for food and bathroom breaks.... that's it.... true story! I hope the two of you have a fabulous HB weekend!

BTW, I'm sure I speak for all of us on the Reconciliation thread in saying that we will be expecting a full detailed report on Monday morning!


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> You talking about the Wisconsin Dells? I always wanted to go there. Been trying to plan a trip to *Pigeon Forge, TN *with Joe one of these years.....just a little dream I suppose.


Pigeon Forge and Gatlinberg, TN.... one of our favorite and most affordable vacations places. Fun for a romantic get-a-way for two or an awesome trip for the whole family!


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> Do not know your full story Empty but if you were in need of recovery at one time you sure did demonstrate a very strong and healthy interaction with your son in your post above.
> 
> *It is very encouraging to see someone with the strength to take a stand that is good for everyone.*
> 
> Empty, I enjoyed your post and your strength!!
> 
> 
> Maybe think about changing your name from Empty Inside to Steel Inside?


Thank you, Mr. Blunt, that is one of the kindest compliments that anyone could have paid me. I'm not proud of the pain that I inflicted upon my husband or my children as a result of my infidelity. But putting B1 aside for a moment, I love my children with all of my heart and it grieves me every day to know that I hurt them, disappointed them and did something that was so devastating to our family that it would be impossible for them not to forever see me in a different light. Mothers should never let their children down. If you should be able to count on anyone in this world, it should be your mother. For 15 months I failed my family.... never again.



CantSitStill said:


> I second that, steel inside. You are a strong person
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can easily say the same thing about you, CSS!


----------



## EI

Okay, lighten up time..... Let's do a fun fact! Tell us something unusual about yourself... something uncommon.

I'll go first! 

I'm color blind.... I didn't know until about 6 years ago. I took three of our sons in to the opthamologist for their annual eye checkups.

All three of them were tested for color blindness. Two of them were indeed color-blind. I was shocked. It is most often inherited from the father's side of the family.

Just for the heck of it the doctor said that he would test me.... guess what? Yep, I'm color blind, too! 

That definitely explained that recurring argument that B1 and I had for years when he would look for a certain pair of dress pants for work. He would say, "Did you wash my green pants?" I would say "You don't have any green pants." And, round and round we'd go. He kept insisting that he did have green pants and he'd had them for a long time and wanted to know where they were? Then, after I would get all of the laundry caught up, he would stop complaining... I didn't know why because I had never "found" the green pants (?) Finally, one day he was wearing his green (WTF) pants and said "These are the pants I've been looking for." I said, "Oh, you mean the brown pants." Then, he and our daughter would insist that they were, indeed, brown. So, I'd ask the boys who looked at the pants and agreed with me that Dad and sister were whacked in the head because it was clearly obvious that the pants were _brown_!

Just another fun-filled story in the B1 and EI household!!!

Oh, the fun never ends!

Share one of yours!


----------



## pidge70

When I was in 2nd grade, I had the chance to be moved up to 6th grade if I went to a special school in Indiana.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I have 2 lazy eyes..started in the left eye but because I was using only my right eye it got so weak that depending on of my glasses are on or off the one eye takes over they other. In other words: my eyes never work together and it physically hurts if I try to look at something with both of them...One more about me: I freakin cannot whistle! LOL tried and tried and just can't. It's annoying when I see how easy it looks when others do. My daughter used to try and teach me when she was little 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Ok one more: I have a brother that I never knew existed until I was 25 yrs old..it freaked me out when I met him and was told he's my brother. My mother put her baby boy up for adoption when she was 18. Never knew, weird how you see that stuff on reunion shows on tv but never knew it would happen to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

Guess I'll go first for the guys.
I got reynaud syndrome (or whatever the hell it is called)

My hands, fingers, feet, all lose circulation very easily. So easily, my fingers have turned ghost white from no blood in them. I have it really bad. 
Another problem is they get VERY cold. They look like the fingers of a dead man. I hate my hands. They are always cold! Plus I live where I get the extremes of all weather. I get 100 degrees in the summer, and ice/snow storms in the winter. So my fingers freeze real easily and real quickly. 

So when my wife and I were dating at the time, and we went to the Christmas Carol one late night. 
And it started snowing outside. 
So when we walked out, I was terrified. I hadn't told her yet, and of course, my hands turned ghost white within minutes of going outside, and the cold snow (forgot my gloves in the car)
So wife, wanting to feel like a couple, grabbed my hand, felt how cold it was, looked at it, and she FREAKED OUT! 

She wanted to take me to the hospital, thought I would lose my fingers, I was just laughing, and it was funny. 
So she tried warming my hands up, rubbing my hands, and she did. Just felt loved that night. Her worrying about me so much.

Ever since then, she always reminds me to:
Remember my gloves
And she always grabs my hands, holding them to keep them warm.


----------



## Mr Blunt

I was very popular with the boys in Junior High School because *I could make the loudest fart noise with my hand over my mouth!*

Still can do it and my children spur me on all the time to rattle the walls.

How is that for a change of pace lightening up EI?


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> When I was in 2nd grade, I had the chance to be moved up to 6th grade if I went to a special school in Indiana.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, pidge, so, we have a brainiac amongst us? Did you end up going or not?



CantSitStill said:


> I have 2 lazy eyes..started in the left eye but because I was using only my right eye it got so weak that depending on of my glasses are on or off the one eye takes over they other. In other words: my eyes never work together and it physically hurts if I try to look at something with both of them...One more about me: I freakin cannot whistle! LOL tried and tried and just can't. It's annoying when I see how easy it looks when others do. My daughter used to try and teach me when she was little
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only my right eye sees far (distance) and my left eye sees near. Used to drive my eye doctor crazy.... He just accepts it, now.

We've gotta work on the whistle thing. There has to be a way to teach you to whistle!



CantSitStill said:


> Ok one more: I have a brother that I never knew existed until I was 25 yrs old..it freaked me out when I met him and was told he's my brother. My mother put her baby boy up for adoption when she was 18. Never knew, weird how you see that stuff on reunion shows on tv but never knew it would happen to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have an older brother that I've seen no more than a dozen times in my life. He's about 70. My Dad fathered him at the age of 17. Dad had lied about his age and joined the army at 15. He had come home on leave for a while then got orders to go to Germany. He got word from his CO that he was to return to the states to marry a young lady that he had "gotten into trouble." This was in the 1940's during World War II. They sure don't do things that way anymore. They married and Dad, immediately, returned to Germany. His, then, wife had the baby boy, gave him Dad's last name, then divorced Dad before he ever returned. 

CSS are you close to your brother, now?



Juicer said:


> Guess I'll go first for the guys.
> I got reynaud syndrome (or whatever the hell it is called)
> 
> My hands, fingers, feet, all lose circulation very easily. So easily, my fingers have turned ghost white from no blood in them. I have it really bad.
> Another problem is they get VERY cold. They look like the fingers of a dead man. I hate my hands. They are always cold! Plus I live where I get the extremes of all weather. I get 100 degrees in the summer, and ice/snow storms in the winter. So my fingers freeze real easily and real quickly.
> 
> So when my wife and I were dating at the time, and we went to the Christmas Carol one late night.
> And it started snowing outside.
> So when we walked out, I was terrified. I hadn't told her yet, and of course, my hands turned ghost white within minutes of going outside, and the cold snow (forgot my gloves in the car)
> So wife, wanting to feel like a couple, grabbed my hand, felt how cold it was, looked at it, and she FREAKED OUT!
> 
> She wanted to take me to the hospital, thought I would lose my fingers, I was just laughing, and it was funny.
> *So she tried warming my hands up, rubbing my hands, and she did. Just felt loved that night. Her worrying about me so much.
> 
> Ever since then, she always reminds me to:
> Remember my gloves
> And she always grabs my hands, holding them to keep them warm.*


Juicer, that is actually one of the sweetest, most romantic stories, involving a syndrome, that I've ever heard! Seriously, even the way you told it was so sweet!


----------



## RobinX03

Hi everyone. New here and have been working on reconciliation for a month. So far everything is going really well. Our marriage has improved 90% from how it has been the passed year. Im just having a hard time dealing with triggers. I know I have a long road a head of me. 

Anyways, I have the hardest time coming up with uncommon/interesting facts about my self. Can that be my uncommon fact? Oh here we go, I had my nipple pierced for only 1 month and now when I breastfeed any of my babies, milk squirts out the holes. Is the uncommon or just weird? LOL


----------



## pidge70

Nope, I didn't go. My mom was worried about the age difference. She was afraid I would be ostracized by the other kids. The school tried talking to her again when I was in 5th grade as I tested at a 10th grade level. Oh well, such is life...lol


----------



## Juicer

pidge70 said:


> Nope, I didn't go. My mom was worried about the age difference. She was afraid I would be ostracized by the other kids. The school tried talking to her again when I was in 5th grade as I tested at a 10th grade level. Oh well, such is life...lol


Let me know when you get the cure to cancer. 
I'll probably need it for my liver. 
Or some other organ that hates me.


----------



## pidge70

Juicer said:


> Let me know when you get the cure to cancer.
> I'll probably need it for my liver.
> Or some other organ that hates me.


I need to find a cure for my kidneys first....lol I have polycystic kidney disease. No cure, no treatment, always ends in renal failure.


----------



## EI

Juicer said:


> Let me know when you get the cure to cancer.
> I'll probably need it for my liver.
> Or some other organ that hates me.





pidge70 said:


> I need to find a cure for my kidneys first....lol I have polycystic kidney disease. No cure, no treatment, always ends in renal failure.



Hey, hey, hey..... this is supposed to be a fun fact theme.... No cancer and no diseases. We're all going to be here, on TAM, dispensing our sage advice to the youngsters 50 years from now, right?

Are either of your conditions treatable with a transplant???


----------



## EI

RobinX03 said:


> Hi everyone. New here and have been working on reconciliation for a month. So far everything is going really well. Our marriage has improved 90% from how it has been the passed year. Im just having a hard time dealing with triggers. I know I have a long road a head of me.
> 
> Anyways, I have the hardest time coming up with uncommon/interesting facts about my self. Can that be my uncommon fact? Oh here we go, I had my nipple pierced for only 1 month and now when I breastfeed any of my babies, milk squirts out the holes. Is the uncommon or just weird? LOL


Hi Robin, welcome to the Reconciliation thread. If you stick around, you'll get a lot of support and encouragement and maybe even a little help in dealing with your triggers. I noticed that a lot of the regulars on this thread had already commented on your thread about triggers.

Regarding your pierced nipple squirting milk when you breastfeed... I would imagine that for the under 30 crowd, it is probably not all that uncommon these days!


----------



## RobinX03

Empty Inside said:


> Hi Robin, welcome to the Reconciliation thread. If you stick around, you'll get a lot of support and encouragement and maybe even a little help in dealing with your triggers. I noticed that a lot of the regulars on this thread had already commented on your thread about triggers.
> 
> Regarding your pierced nipple squirting milk when you breastfeed... I would imagine that for the under 30 crowd, it is probably not all that uncommon these days!



Thanks for the welcome  the advice I have already received has already been helpful! and you are probably right about the piercing deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

RobinX03 said:


> Hi everyone. New here and have been working on reconciliation for a month. So far everything is going really well. Our marriage has improved 90% from how it has been the passed year. Im just having a hard time dealing with triggers. I know I have a long road a head of me.
> 
> Anyways, I have the hardest time coming up with uncommon/interesting facts about my self. Can that be my uncommon fact? Oh here we go, I had my nipple pierced for only 1 month and now when I breastfeed any of my babies, milk squirts out the holes. Is the uncommon or just weird? LOL


Being that it's morning milk almost squirted out of BOTH nostrils. Coincidence?!! :rofl:


Uncommon fact about me. Most of you know that I flew private jets for a decade. What most people don't know is that in 1997 I had aerophobia. Yes. That is the fear of flying.


----------



## B1

Uncommon fact about me..DO NOT TOUCH MY BELLYBUTTON. My god It is up there with Dday, well ok, not quite, but it's bad. It sends sickening vibes all throughout my body. Just writing about it makes me nauseous. 

An interesting fact about me I will share, I read the entire bible in 90 days. It was an amazing 90 day journey for me also!


----------



## B1

RobinX03 said:


> Hi everyone. New here and have been working on reconciliation for a month. So far everything is going really well. Our marriage has improved 90% from how it has been the passed year. Im just having a hard time dealing with triggers. I know I have a long road a head of me.
> 
> Anyways, I have the hardest time coming up with uncommon/interesting facts about my self. Can that be my uncommon fact? Oh here we go, I had my nipple pierced for only 1 month and now when I breastfeed any of my babies, milk squirts out the holes. Is the uncommon or just weird? LOL


Hey, Robin glad to see you here.

I hope you have gotten some help with triggers, When you trigger is it thoughts, images, mind movies? what is it exactly that you are seeing,thinking etc.


----------



## RobinX03

betrayed1 said:


> Hey, Robin glad to see you here.
> 
> I hope you have gotten some help with triggers, When you trigger is it thoughts, images, mind movies? what is it exactly that you are seeing,thinking etc.


Most of the time I just see the MW's face. I don't usually see like a sexual scene. I just see her lieing to my face about the whole thing. And more then imagine are just the thoughts of H being with her. I don't see images of them together. However, H did have another "A" in Oct 2011, it was a one nighter, drunk and it happened in the back of his truck. I get images of that, but not of the actual OW. I think I dwell on the MW situation because it happened 5 times and she was "a friend" Usually I feel saddened, that it happened. How could H have let it happen, not once but 5 times (6 if you count the Oct OW) But then there are the days that I actually see the MW and it angers me. I want to kick her a$$. She stands there at the bus stop like she is perfect and has done nothing wrong. How can someone act like that after doing such a thing? Don't even say anything about maybe she hurts inside, this wasn't her first rodeo, from my understanding. Our kids were friends and my DD asks about her DD a lot and I have to change the subject fast or not answer her question like she didn't ask it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edit: I changed my first sentance, I used OW, changed it to MW.


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> I was very popular with the boys in Junior High School because *I could make the loudest fart noise with my hand over my mouth!*
> 
> Still can do it and my children spur me on all the time to rattle the walls.
> How is that for a change of pace lightening up EI?



I am so sorry, Mr. Blunt, I don't know how I missed this last night... That's definitely a talent that was sure to be envied by the guys in junior high school, especially, if I'm remembering junior high school boys from back in my days there! It's been a decade or two or three.... or....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

ugh...morning.....ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Uncommon fact about me. Most of you know that I flew private jets for a decade. What most people don't know is that in 1997 I had aerophobia. Yes. That is the fear of flying.


First of all, it had somehow "escaped" me that you flew "private" jets. I had assumed you had flown for a commercial airline. But that explains the few people onboard when you had that one near mishap flight..... . Wow, you became a pilot after suffering from a fear of flying.... That was a huge obstacle to overcome. I'm impressed. Now, I don't feel so proud of myself for, somewhat, overcoming claustrophobia in order to ride elevators with our wheelchair bound son. I didn't learn to control my fear until several years later and got into several embarrassing situations trying to avoid riding the elevator!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Empty Inside said:


> Hey, hey, hey..... this is supposed to be a fun fact theme.... No cancer and no diseases. We're all going to be here, on TAM, dispensing our sage advice to the youngsters 50 years from now, right?
> 
> Are either of your conditions treatable with a transplant???


Dialysis first, then a transplant. Looking at about 20yrs down the road before that is needed. Hopefully they find a cure for it by then.


----------



## CantSitStill

As for my brother, it's weird but because we didn't grow up together I don't feel that bond. It's sad but true. We talk alittle, he doesn't live in my state anymore. The real sad thing is I feel like he's the lucky one..God forgive me for saying that..ugg but living with that woman was hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seasalt

In the 6th grade, I won third prize in the New York City Science Fair. Graduated HS just after I turned 16.

Take that Pidge.


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## pidge70

seasalt said:


> In the 6th grade, I won third prize in the New York City Science Fair. Graduated HS just after I turned 16.
> 
> Take that Pidge.


Ummmm, okay. Yay you.


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## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> Dialysis first, then a transplant. Looking at about 20yrs down the road before that is needed. Hopefully they find a cure for it by then.


wow Pidge, I hope they find a cure soon too. Scarey stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seasalt

Pidge70,

Sorry for any offense given. Evidently I'm no longer as smart as I was at 10 years old.

Seasalt


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## CantSitStill

Too many smart people here lol. I don't fit in since the teacher I work with gave me a 1 out of 4 on academically knowing the materiel for freakin preschool.. Made me so mad I had to write that letter to show I do have a higher than preschool education. I did graduate from high school for crying out loud and passed that parapro test. K done venting..sorry carry on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

CantSitStill said:


> Too many smart people here lol. I don't fit in since the teacher I work with gave me a 1 out of 4 on academically knowing the materiel for freakin preschool.. Made me so mad I had to write that letter to show I do have a higher than preschool education. I did graduate from high school for crying out loud and passed that parapro test. K done venting..sorry carry on
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quit beating yourself up. There is a HUGE difference between being intelligent and knowledgeable. Just because someone knows more about a specific subject than you, doesn't mean they are more intelligent. Also, just because someone has a college education does not necessarily indicate they are intelligent.

FWIW, for all my "smarts", I dropped out of high school. Got my GED aka good enough diploma. I also dropped out of college.


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## CantSitStill

Oh lol not beating myself up. I know I am smart, just couldn't believe she had that down that way like I don't know my ABCs or colors or shapes..Also was just teasing you guys 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

pidge70 said:


> Dialysis first, then a transplant. Looking at about 20yrs down the road before that is needed. *Hopefully they find a cure for it by then.*


Hopefully, they will...


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## calvin

Praying for you Joe and Pidge,while I have another beer and watch the Pats and the Jets in OT.
In my prayers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

pidge70 said:


> Dialysis first, then a transplant. Looking at about 20yrs down the road before that is needed. Hopefully they find a cure for it by then.


pidge, most people on one side of my family have PKD as well. i seem not to have it so far... but i can't be sure because the way it runs in my family is that some of us have had no signs (and no cysts) until later in life. others have developed it as early as their 20s.

and some of those who have it lived a long life with dialysis, well into their 80s.


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## margrace

hi everyone:

i haven't followed recently because i've been traveling. hope you're all doing well.

i am now in the last day of a trip that i took with WH. we traveled to another city for an athletic competition of his. the trip was planned long ago, before all this.

i debated whether or not to go. but one of the last things that i posted to all of you was coming across that love bank concept, and realizing that ours was empty (!), so it seemed like an opportunity to make a little deposit before our first MC appointment (in one week). plus i had the airline ticket and had cancelled everything at work already. so here i am.

all in all, i'm glad that i came. the change of scenery has been a help to me, and i am happy to have had the chance to be giving... one of the desperately bad things about our pre-A life was our disconnection, and i know in retrospect that i was not giving much at all to our marriage at that time.

it has been difficult, though. there are moments when it feels to me like a goodbye trip, and it might well be that if MC doesn't help. it's also hard to witness the 100% effort that WH made in his competition and to hear him talk about it, because i can't help but see that he doesn't show that same commitment and effort in R (yet). he has not been fully transparent and honest (yet), and as far as i know, maintains an inappropriate relationship with an OW at work. i say "as far as i know" because she is one of the things that he has not spoken about thus far.

so we will have *plenty* to work with in MC.

he is appreciative that i'm here and i feel that the deposit was received.

this all makes me feel more settled with moving on if R doesn't work out. i might have said this before -- i'm not the type to be angry that i "wasted" time working on this if R fails. i'm more the type who wants to know that i left it on the field  -- that i could not have tried harder or done anything more. after that, i will still be sad. i already feel that sadness waiting just around the corner -- but so be it.


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## margrace

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

p.s. right after i posted that, WH came in & sat down next to me. he said that sports accomplishments are hollow if you don't apply them to the rest of your life, & that he is going to work hard for us....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

I can't win. I got upset last night so instead of blowing up I walked away and did my own thing. Well apparently that is ignoring her. Can't break the cycle when everything you do is wrong. 
We were supposed to go to a party she decided she didn't want to . 
That's fine. What I was upset about is that she told me sure we will go. Was just going to stop in for a couple hours and get out. Have a nice dinner alone and stay at a hotel. 
I wasn't even going to have a drink because she doesn't drink now. 
She told me to go alone. This is my problem with that. 
1. Huge trigger. This what was said to me while she was playing with the OM.
2. Tired of the questions from everybody, "where's pidge?, man does she hate us or something?" (truth be told , yes but I'm not going to say it)
3. She had no problem rushing out to see him and I can't even get her to eat in town with me. That pisses me off to no end. I'm an a$$ for even asking. 
I see we have nothing in common. Would have known that early on if she would not have pulled that BPD mirroring stuff. "Wow! She likes everything I do!" Nope.
If it's going to be the same thing it was before the A then it's not worth fighting for. Same crap. I get I love you to my face but I'm an ogre to everyone else when she speaks of me. 
Everything is a slight, everything is a catastrophe. 
She had no problems spending weekends in a bar getting Gin drunk but now 2 hrs at my friends house where there would be beer is unbearable.
Just wondered what an evening out with her by my side was like for once.


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## SomedayDig

I get ya, Joe. You tried to react differently than you have in the past. You tried something more "productive" than yelling. I give you kudos for that, man. However, for Pidge, it seems like it's something she's just gonna have to get used to. It can't be played both ways. Which of those choices is the better response? I'd say walking away and de-escalating the situation is.

However, one thing to ponder is HOW to walk away. For me, the way I do it is to verbalize it. I've said, "I don't like where this is going so I'm gonna walk away now." I don't wait for a response or queue back or anything. My words are enough.

My question for you Joe is kind of, well...maybe silly cuz I'm not a shrink or anything. I just want to ask you more so that you can really try to think about it. When was the last time you were truly happy with Pidge?


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## Acabado

You guys need a plan. And tons of comunication.
You get to know each other, to find out what are each other needs and put an effort in meeting them. Stepping out the comfort zone to please the other, to meet at the middle.
Did I say comunication?


> I can't win. I got upset last night so instead of blowing up I walked away and did my own thing. Well apparently that is ignoring her. Can't break the cycle when everything you do is wrong.


Sorry man. I hate to bring it but ir's black and white thinking. What abut comunication? Find a way to manage frustation, to calm down and explain yourself. Not exploding/walking away. Talking, discussing.


> If it's going to be the same thing it was before the A then it's not worth fighting for. Same crap.


Sure not. Things need to improve. A plan to achieve it is in order. You can do it on yourselves. A third party can help also.


> I get I love you to my face but I'm an ogre to everyone else when she speaks of me.


Unacceptable. Hope it ends yesterday. I hope now you decided to change your aproach the whole dynamics improve. Just reached the decision, can't decide it's not working a week later.


> She had no problems spending weekends in a bar getting Gin drunk but now 2 hrs at my friends house where there would be beer is unbearable.


It's the old you bringing the affair back to forehead. I understand.


> Just wondered what an evening out with her by my side was like for once.


You need to date. Quality time. Sure.


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## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> I get ya, Joe. You tried to react differently than you have in the past. You tried something more "productive" than yelling. I give you kudos for that, man. However, for Pidge, it seems like it's something she's just gonna have to get used to. It can't be played both ways. Which of those choices is the better response? I'd say walking away and de-escalating the situation is.
> 
> However, one thing to ponder is HOW to walk away. For me, the way I do it is to verbalize it. I've said, "I don't like where this is going so I'm gonna walk away now." I don't wait for a response or queue back or anything. My words are enough.
> 
> My question for you Joe is kind of, well...maybe silly cuz I'm not a shrink or anything. I just want to ask you more so that you can really try to think about it. When was the last time you were truly happy with Pidge?


I can't remember. I'm sure she would say the same on her end. 
Maybe the fact that she couldn't wait to be with him is the crux my problem. I read the stuff, if he would have said lets rub dogsh*t on ourselves and screw she would have been there as fast as she could. 
So instead of throwing all that out and starting the latest blood letting I said " I have no desire for any of this" and walked away.


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## B1

Wow, sorry Joe, Those types of triggers suck big time.
Is it the alcohol she is avoiding?
Would she have gone to dinner with just you instead?

Really sorry if the anwser to #2 is no. If so, what was\is her reason for not wanting to go out to dinner with you? I don't understand that one.


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## EI

Reconciliation is when your BS watches a thread on the CWI forum when he is in a meeting at work, then sends you a text, because he knows that his former WS gets a kick out of silly little things like getting the 2,000th post! I love you, B1!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Packing my stuff now.


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Packing my stuff now.


Wait a minute dude,what are you doing?
Stop relax and think this out,dont go off half ****ed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Joe and Pidge this can be worked out, you two need to stop being stubborn! Come on..negotiate needs to eachother, don't give up every time you don't wanna do something or disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

_"I read the stuff, if he would have said lets rub dogsh*t on ourselves and screw she would have been there as fast as she could."_

I get the above statement all to well. But...that was fantasy land, not real. 

What you all have IS REAL. The good and the bad. She is with YOU now, she chooses you. And you chose her and to R. Calm down and talk this out. You can get through it.


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> I can't remember. I'm sure she would say the same on her end.
> Maybe the fact that she couldn't wait to be with him is the crux my problem. I read the stuff, if he would have said lets rub dogsh*t on ourselves and screw she would have been there as fast as she could.
> So instead of throwing all that out and starting the latest blood letting I said " I have no desire for any of this" and walked away.


Joe. I think everyone in this thread wants you and Pidge to work through reconciliation. I think sometimes we help each other because in a sense it helps each of us. It gives us hope when we see each other work through difficult times. It also scares us when we read things like you packing your things. It scares us because we know it could happen at a moment's notice, as it "seems" to with you.

I put that in quotations because, as we all know, you and Pidge are the ones living your lives together. We only get a snapshot on a computer screen. We don't live your dynamics as you don't live ours.

You and Pidge need to decide what is best for each of you individually and as a couple. Is it best for your marriage to end it? Is it best for you and she to end it? Those are questions only the two of you can answer.

Don't let us hold any sway over either of you. I would only ask that before you pack things in, that you make sure that BOTH of you have considered every angle of this thing. Makes sure that you both agree which is the best way to move forward. Don't be like so many people are who follow a "Fire, Ready, Aim" mentality.

Trust yourself.


----------



## CantSitStill

I do not understand why she changed her mind if she already said she would go to the party. Sometimes we gotta do things we don't feel like doing. Sorry I'll stay out of it .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Its a bad trigger man,I had a good one yesterday.
Dont throw in the towel,youre much stronger than you think.
Ride it out and you and Pidge talk it over later.
I almost packed my sh!t a couple times.
I'm glad I didnt.I love my wife and I know you both love eachother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Keep working it! You've worked hard this far. It's just one trigger. We are not perfect, and sh1t is going to go wrong. But there's a lot you have that has gone right. Don't toss that out.


----------



## pidge70

I'll respond when I get home to my pc. Just got off work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Nevermind, I'm not playing this game, especially not online. His bag is packed in the living room and he is asleep upstairs.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Nevermind, I'm not playing this game, especially not online. His bag is packed in the living room and he is asleep upstairs.


Dont blame ya,hope you guys can sit down and talk it out when he gets up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

pidge70 said:


> Nevermind, I'm not playing this game, especially not online. His bag is packed in the living room and he is asleep upstairs.


Thinking of you.

Wishing you both the best !!


----------



## SomedayDig

Joe & Pidge, I think both of you should take time off the forum and talk honestly and openly about what each of you need. Don't do it here. Do it alone and without interruption. I know you have a lot of people pulling for you and wishing you both strength and peace.


----------



## calvin

Prayers guys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Joe and Pidge, thinking of you both.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Joe and pidge
Hope you work things out
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> Joe & Pidge, I think both of you should take time off the forum and talk honestly and openly about what each of you need. Don't do it here. Do it alone and without interruption. I know you have a lot of people pulling for you and wishing you both strength and peace.


second what dig says. great advice as usual from dig.

prayers to you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Hope you can talk calmy Joe and Pidge.


----------



## SomedayDig

Thank you B1. I'm humbled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> p.s. right after i posted that, WH came in & sat down next to me. he said that sports accomplishments are hollow if you don't apply them to the rest of your life, & that he is going to work hard for us....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> p.s. right after i posted that, WH came in & sat down next to me. he said that sports accomplishments are hollow if you don't apply them to the rest of your life, & that he is going to work hard for us.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hope he means this margrace. Sounds like he realized he could be doing more. Hang in there you are giving it your all and that's the best you can do. The rest is up to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> hope he means this margrace. Sounds like he realized he could be doing more. Hang in there you are giving it your all and that's the best you can do. The rest is up to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks B1. i hope so too! we'll see. at this point, i do feel that i have given as much as i possibly could....


----------



## calvin

margrace said:


> thanks B1. i hope so too! we'll see. at this point, i do feel that i have given as much as i possibly could....


It's CSS's attitude,patience and her hard work on 
repairing our relationship that has kept us in the game.
It hurts but I really dont have any regrets in this R.
The WS needs to do everything they can to show
that they are true to the betrayed spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Thank you everyone for thinking of us, I do appreciate it. Hard to talk calmly though when we are both too damn stubborn to speak first.


----------



## pidge70

margrace said:


> thanks B1. i hope so too! we'll see. at this point, i do feel that i have given as much as i possibly could....


I truly hope your H comes around. I wish you peace and happiness. Take care of yourself, he has to do this on his own.


----------



## EI

Joe and Pidge, I was running around like a crazy woman yesterday, trying to get a lot of things accomplished and, although, I started to comment on your situation at least a dozen different times I never managed to finish it and press "submit." I just wanted you, both, to know that I am thinking about you. This reconciliation business is not easy stuff. You guys are on my prayer list.... every day.


----------



## B1

R and trust...

EI went to dinner with an old friend last night. Someone she used once for a cover up to see the xOM. I got through it, Only triggered once. She sent 2 pictures of herself with the friend which really helped. This is what it's about folks, this is the work that's involved in rebuilding trust.

It may sound crazy going this far but it's part of R, it's just part of it. BS's need their WS to go the extra mile for them when it comes to things like this, and EI did just that. I didn't even ask for
pics, EI did that on her own.

I was a little insecure about it, but I did actually trust her. She initially showed me the incoming call from the friend where she asked her out to dinner. Then, like I said, EI sent 2 pics of them out together. EI had a great time with an old friend and I was happy EI could do this. It was good for her. For me, it helped establish more trust, it broke the ice so to speak.

We had a good evening afterwards. We talked, I held her (she loves being held), and then bedtime.


----------



## ChangingMe

Just wanted to give y'all an update with us -bad and good. 

Saturday started out good (at least to me), and we did all the things I mentioned -driving range, bungee jumping, we had a drink in this fancy revolving restaurant, met some friends at a bar, etc. DD seemed ok; not overly warm, but in a fairly good mood. We had checked into our room after bungee jumping to clean up and put on nicer close for the evening. 

After meeting friends, we decided to go to one more bar. It was about midnight, and as we were driving over there, DD started getting more and more quiet. When we got to the bar, he said he didn't want to go, he wanted to go home. He drove us back to the hotel, went and got our stuff out of the room & drove us back to our house. He was obviously furious and didn't want to talk. When we got home, he went to sleep on the couch upstairs. I followed a couple minutes later to see if I could get him to talk, but he was already asleep. I slept on the floor next to him. 

The next day, he barely talked to me, but we did talk a bit that evening. He told me that he woke up Saturday in a low spot and knew that he did not want to stay at a hotel with me. He said he wanted to do the fun things we had planned, but he didn't want to do them with me. He said he tried to snap out of it, and had a pretty good time during the day, but then it started going downhill. I put my arm through his when we were walking through downtown in the dark, and he said it made his skin crawl. Then as we drove to the last bar, we past by a place we went to with OM & OMW the weekend before DDay -so that was a huge trigger.

We talked a little more, but he wasn't really saying anything, and I was exhausted, so I went to bed. He came to bed several hours later and we talked. It was painful stuff -he said the biggest mistake of his life was marrying me. But then he held me. Yesterday was a good day though, and last night was really good -he said some very sweet and loving things to me. 

He had an IC session today -his first in about 6 weeks. I've only gotten to talk to him for about a minute about it; we're going to talk tonight. But he said it was good, that he has to keep going regularly, and that his therapist basically said he needs to sh!t or get off the pot (fairly sure those are DD's words, not the therapist's). We are actually going to see his therapist together next week, which is huge. 

So we've had some fairly serious ups and downs the last few days, but I'm really hoping him going back to counseling will help him with the severity of those. One day at a time, right?


----------



## SomedayDig

One day at a time is absolutely right. As a counselor yourself, I don't need to tell you that DD is gonna have some pretty bad days. Sometimes it can happen in a split second. Trust me. I know that for my own. I'll be sitting around and enjoying things and all it takes is the smallest thing to trigger me.

Hurt, anger, betrayal, fear...heck, you name it and DD, like so many of us get them all instantaneously and with the wayward standing right by - well, let's just say sometimes our words don't truly match our heart. The pain is at times too much to overcome and I think it's important for the wayward spouse to recognize that and slightly back off. If anything, don't ever antagonize or start any kind of confrontation.

Some people call it an emotional roller coaster. I think of it more as a runaway freight train with my heart as the caboose.


----------



## iheartlife

betrayed1 said:


> R and trust...
> 
> EI went to dinner with an old friend last night. Someone she used once for a cover up to see the xOM. I got through it, Only triggered once. She sent 2 pictures of herself with the friend which really helped. This is what it's about folks, this is the work that's involved in rebuilding trust.
> 
> It may sound crazy going this far but it's part of R, it's just part of it. BS's need their WS to go the extra mile for them when it comes to things like this, and EI did just that. I didn't even ask for
> pics, EI did that on her own.
> 
> I was a little insecure about it, but I did actually trust her. She initially showed me the incoming call from the friend where she asked her out to dinner. Then, like I said, EI sent 2 pics of them out together. EI had a great time with an old friend and I was happy EI could do this. It was good for her. For me, it helped establish more trust, it broke the ice so to speak.
> 
> We had a good evening afterwards. We talked, I held her (she loves being held), and then bedtime.


B1, I have a question for you, and maybe you've answered it elsewhere, so sorry about that. I was curious--I know you've said you're being treated for low T. I assume that means you are actively taking supplements or getting injections? How does that work--are you going to do that indefinitely? It just seems to me like artificial hormone supplement for more than a little while is not a good idea for me or women (thyroid stuff being an exception)....mostly wondering what your doctor had to say to you on the subject.


----------



## Acabado

ChangingMe


> he said the biggest mistake of his life was marrying me. But then he held me.


It's the pain talking. I've been exactly in that scene to many times to count. Love hurts so much sometimes.
I'm thinking you are doing your best. That's what I had too. It toke me some time to get rid of the more deepest pain. Keep doing it. Patience is key. 
Just sending positive vibes to you and your half.


----------



## RobinX03

margrace said:


> p.s. right after i posted that, WH came in & sat down next to me. he said that sports accomplishments are hollow if you don't apply them to the rest of your life, & that he is going to work hard for us....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope for you and him and your marriage that he is serious about working hard for you guys!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cabin fever

ChangingMe said:


> When we got home, he went to sleep on the couch upstairs. I followed a couple minutes later to see if I could get him to talk, but he was already asleep. I slept on the floor next to him.


This would help me. Good job. The roller coaster sucks, but its alot easier with a spouse that understands, and cares. Hope it gets better.


----------



## Acabado

> I slept on the floor next to him.


He still doesn't "know" it but this healed him. A bit.


----------



## B1

CM, sorry it was a rough weekend. But, he's really hurting. I can't believe the therapist said for him to basically choose a path. He's still in intense pain sometimes, maybe all the time. He's definitely having trouble getting over this and pushing him for a decision, to me, is NOT the thing to do right now. He has to come to this on his time.

For us male BS's, the whole $ex thing is just devastating, to know what we know and move forward takes enormous effort on our part, and in a way, we have to shut it off most of the time because it's just to much. It overloads our senses in every way. 

When the thoughts and images come, like they did with DD, it's just horrible, it's torture, I cannot even put it into words the pain and intense hurt that is felt. It brings out every bad and painful emotion our bodies can produce, then amplifies it a thousand times over. We are litterally grieving a loss, like someone very close to us just at that moment died, it's a hurt that just slams you. It's traumatizing over and over again with every image and every thought.

We have to suffer through these images, mind movies and thoughts of our wives doing things with another man that NEVER should have happened while married. We should not have to suffer this way, but we do...and DD does, because within it all, he loves you. Hopefully he can work through this and you two can come out of this mess with a strong, healthy marriage.

You seem to be very understanding and compassionate and that's a great thing. You are being there for him which is about all you can do right now. It's up to him now. He has to be able to work through this and move forward. It's definitely possible!

btw; sleeping on the floor next to him was a good thing  that was comforting at it's purest.


----------



## B1

iheartlife said:


> B1, I have a question for you, and maybe you've answered it elsewhere, so sorry about that. I was curious--I know you've said you're being treated for low T. I assume that means you are actively taking supplements or getting injections? How does that work--are you going to do that indefinitely? It just seems to me like artificial hormone supplement for more than a little while is not a good idea for me or women (thyroid stuff being an exception)....mostly wondering what your doctor had to say to you on the subject.


I self inject every 2 weeks. I guess I will for life. Neve asked how long I would\could do this for. My T-levels are still not super high, they are in the middle, very normal range.

I will ask her on my next appt. curious to know myself now.


----------



## iheartlife

betrayed1 said:


> I self inject every 2 weeks. I guess I will for life. Neve asked how long I would\could do this for. My T-levels are still not super high, they are in the middle, very normal range.
> 
> I will ask her on my next appt. curious to know myself now.


My H really doesn't want to do this at all--although he hasn't been tested so he might not need it.

I've just heard such mixed things, such as [FROM MEN, ANONYMOUS VIA FORUM POSTS] how do you know the levels are low if you don't have a baseline; most men's fall after a certain age; do you really want to have the sex life of a 15 year old, I'd [THE MEN] settle for [WHAT MY LIBIDO WAS AT] 35, etc. (none of that [SAID] from my H, just from other men [VIA ANONYMOUS FORUM POSTS I'VE READ]).

Machiavelli had a good post a while back about raising T levels naturally 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...if-wife-cheated-need-advice-6.html#post813821

quoting it here:


> Originally posted by Machiavelli
> A fistful of almonds or walnuts (zinc) every night followed by at least 8 hours of sleep. Get plenty of sat fat (grass fed dairy and meat), cholesterol (free range eggs), 15 minutes of noon day sun on your bare (unblocked) torso (or Vit D supplementation). Most importantly, lift heavy with leg press, dead lift, squats. And get 8+ hours of sleep. A study found that men diagnosed as T deficient moved their numbers into the low normal range by merely getting 8 hours of sleep.


If you talk to your dr. about it, if you don't mind sharing what they say, I'm curious.


----------



## margrace

RobinX03 said:


> I hope for you and him and your marriage that he is serious about working hard for you guys!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you, robin. yes, i hope so, too... i guess i'll find out (one way or the other) what he means by working hard for us.

first MC appointment next week.


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> When the thoughts and images come, like they did with DD, it's just horrible, it's torture, I cannot even put it into words the pain and intense hurt that is felt. It brings out every bad and painful emotion our bodies can produce, then amplifies it a thousand times over. We are litterally grieving a loss, like someone very close to us just at that moment died, it's a hurt that just slams you. It's traumatizing over and over again with every image and every thought.


so true, B1. and i am SO exhausted from it.....


----------



## Juicer

betrayed1 said:


> I self inject every 2 weeks. I guess I will for life. Neve asked how long I would\could do this for. My T-levels are still not super high, they are in the middle, very normal range.
> 
> I will ask her on my next appt. curious to know myself now.


Ooohhh, steroids for breakfast, how I miss those days.....

Hey B1, you may want to get your cholesterol levels checked out. When you are taking in testosterone in any form, oral or injectables, tends to make your cholesterol go bad. 



> I've just heard such mixed things, such as, how do you know the levels are low if you don't have a baseline; most men's fall after a certain age; do you really want to have the sex life of a 15 year old, I'd settle for 35, etc. (none of that from my H, just from other men).


Most men's T-levels peak at 25, then slowly start going down. Some go faster, while other's tend to slow in their decrease, but they still go down. 
Or in my case, have T-levels that look like the stock market. 
Up, down, up, down, up, down, depression!, up, down, up down, you get the idea.


----------



## TDSC60

iheartlife said:


> do you really want to have the sex life of a 15 year old, I'd settle for 35, etc. (none of that from my H, just from other men).


You want sex from other men and not your husband??????


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> R and trust...
> 
> EI went to dinner with an old friend last night. Someone she used once for a cover up to see the xOM. I got through it, Only triggered once. She sent 2 pictures of herself with the friend which really helped. This is what it's about folks, this is the work that's involved in rebuilding trust.
> 
> It may sound crazy going this far but it's part of R, it's just part of it. BS's need their WS to go the extra mile for them when it comes to things like this, and EI did just that. I didn't even ask for
> pics, EI did that on her own.
> 
> I was a little insecure about it, but I did actually trust her. She initially showed me the incoming call from the friend where she asked her out to dinner. Then, like I said, EI sent 2 pics of them out together. EI had a great time with an old friend and I was happy EI could do this. It was good for her. For me, it helped establish more trust, it broke the ice so to speak.
> 
> We had a good evening afterwards. We talked, I held her (she loves being held), and then bedtime.



I know it isn't likely that any of the "regulars" on this thread would raise their eyebrows at B1's post... but, just in case anyone is wondering, I wanted to clarify a few things. Yes, I did have dinner with a girlfriend of mine last night. It was a spur of the moment thing with her calling me in the afternoon asking if we could meet for dinner. She and I have been friends since the 7th grade. We've been through thick and thin together. She's the real deal as far as friends go. And, although I did use her as a cover for one of my dates with the xOM, she was completely unaware of it until after D-day and my affair was exposed. I never asked anyone to "cover" for me; not family, not friends, no one, nor would I have. I would not have asked or expected that of anyone that I care about, would not want to put those relationships at risk, and would have thought less of anyone who would have been willing to cover for me because I knew that what I was doing was wrong. Even the one friend that I used as a cover about 90% of the time was completely unaware. I always knew that if I got caught... _I got caught._ I wasn't going to drag anyone else into my deception.

The friend that I had dinner with lost her 20 y/o step-son on May 27th after a 16 month battle with cancer, and she is now dealing with some depression. It has been kind of nice for me to be able to be there for her in the last several weeks... anything that takes my mind off of my own troubles is a kind of a good thing. It feels good to do something for someone else. Ironically enough, the Sunday morning that her step-son passed away would become D-Day for B1 later that same evening. I don't think that I'll ever be able to see May 27th as anything other than the day from Hell.

I'll respond to some other posts later. B1 and I have got to go look at a truck for our youngest son.... remember, that was the "crises" of the week two weeks ago..... when our son totaled his "first" vehicle. The insurance check is in... so off we go!


----------



## joe kidd

EI. This.....


> I would not have asked or expected that of anyone that I care about, would not want to put those relationships at risk


So at that point in time is it reasonable to assume that your marriage wasn't one of those relationships?


----------



## calvin

Thats a relief to know the your friend wans'nt actually covering for you during the A,when I read that post by B1 it disturbed me somewhat.
I'm sorry about her step son and D Day must have been hell.
CSS had a couple friends that tried to talk sense into her when she was texting and meeting her AP,they kept telling her " you love your husband and cant trust a hs bf from 20 years ago".
Sadly one of her friends who I thought was also a friend of mine encouraged her to do whatever made her feel good,told her to go for it and condoned her A.
That is until she started seeing how the OM was lying threw what little teeth he had,I even saw the FB post where OM,CSS and what I thought was a friend were yucking it up together.
Her "friend doesnt know it yet but I never want to see her again,I dont want CSS around her or talking to her either.
This "friend" used to tell CSS that she had a good man and CSS was lucky.
A 20 year friendship down the drain.Its sad and it sickens the hell out of me.
I will never talk to her again and I dont want CSS to either.
Friends dont do that kind of crap......its really sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Empty Inside, what you friend had to say about it? I mean using her as a cover not the affair itself. What about the other friend?


----------



## B1

iheartlife said:


> My H really doesn't want to do this at all--although he hasn't been tested so he might not need it.
> 
> I've just heard such mixed things, such as, how do you know the levels are low if you don't have a baseline; most men's fall after a certain age; do you really want to have the sex life of a 15 year old, I'd settle for 35, etc. (none of that from my H, just from other men).
> 
> Machiavelli had a good post a while back about raising T levels naturally
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...if-wife-cheated-need-advice-6.html#post813821
> 
> quoting it here:
> 
> 
> If you talk to your dr. about it, if you don't mind sharing what they say, I'm curious.


They know what your levels should be for your age. My levels were in the 200's, now there in the 600's. Still not off the charts high. So I do not have the drive of a 15 year old at all, more like a 17 year old 
No, really more like a 40 year old, which is where I should be. We could bump up the numbers but my doctor said then you would have to start worrying about other things. She likes my numbers so we are sticking with 1 shot every two weeks.

btw. They just came out with an under arm application method, in case your husband is not wanting to do injections. It's another option. However, injections are not bad at all.

Also too, low-t affects a LOT more then sex drive. It's what makes a man a man, it effects mood, motivation, it can help with depression and fix a lot of other problems too. I do not see a downside at all. If your numbers are low it can change your life!


----------



## iheartlife

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by iheartlife
> do you really want to have the sex life of a 15 year old, I'd settle for 35, etc. (none of that from my H, just from other men).
> 
> 
> 
> TDSC60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You want sex from other men and not your husband??????
Click to expand...


Erm...no :rofl: This is how rumors get started!

No, I was quoting a hypothetical MAN who is debating getting testosterone injections to boost his libido. I.e., some men decide NOT to get them because even though their libido is lower, they have no desire to turn back the clock to 15, they'd settle for the libido that they had when THEY (the men) were 35.

This was not something my husband has said, it's something I've heard OTHER men say.

And the only one I heard say it in real life was our MC with my H sitting right there. The rest, marriage forum members.

off to edit my post...


----------



## EI

Empty Inside said:


> I never asked anyone to "cover" for me; not family, not friends, no one, nor would I have. *I would not have asked or expected that of anyone that I care about, would not want to put those relationships at risk,* and would have thought less of anyone who would have been willing to cover for me because I knew that what I was doing was wrong.





joe kidd said:


> EI. This.....
> 
> So at that point in time is it reasonable to assume that your marriage wasn't one of those relationships?


I knew that someone was going to call me out on that as soon as I pressed "Submit Reply."  I could give one of my very "EI" like, lengthy explanations, or I can just be honest and cut to the chase. At that point in time, it is reasonable to assume that my marriage was not one of those relationships. There was no one and nothing in the world that could have convinced me that there was or ever would be, again, anything in our marriage worth saving. I had been very resentful towards B1 for quite some time for his prolonged refusal to work on improving our marriage. Resentment had turned into bitterness, bitterness had turned into apathy and finally, apathy had turned into indifference. 

The honest truth, as ugly as it was, is that I was so unhappy for such a long time, that I reached a point, that other than, willfully and intentionally, sacrificing the health, happiness and well-being of my children, there was probably nothing that I wouldn't have sacrificed for whatever "crumbs of happiness" I could scrape up. That isn't a pretty truth, or a truth that I am proud of, but I do think that it is important to share your stories, honestly, if you hope to learn from them or even, perhaps, help someone else who may currently find themselves in a situation that seems as hopeless and as desperate as I felt mine was at the time.

Let me be clear. I know that my children's health, happiness and well-being did suffer, immensely, when they learned of my affair. It is one of things that I will likely struggle, to come to terms with, for the rest of my life. The point that I am trying to make is that, although I have clearly stated that I was not feeling "in love" with B1 at that time, not even remotely "in like," my love for my children never wavered.... I don't care how many *TAM*_ers_ want to argue that point.... so, let's not go there. But, my existence had become so sad, so lonely, so without hope and purpose. And, for anyone who really knows me, you would know that I am a person who lives to please, longs to be needed, wants to make a difference...... I felt like a failure on every level.... I couldn't even get my husband to love me. I know, I know, some people live in much worse situations and they don't cheat.... I got it.... I know. I'm not some people, I'm EI. I could not bear it anymore, I just couldn't. I was so "Empty Inside" that I wasn't even able to rationally comprehend the "what ifs," anymore. Like, "What if your children find out?" "What if your husband really does love you?" "What if..........................?"


----------



## happyman64

EI

Friends like that are rare indeed.

What is even greater than that is B1 understands this and appreciates your friendship.

Glad you had a night out away from "it" all.

Sad to hear about her son. Way too young. I hope you are able to offer comfort to your friend.

My TAM prayer list for this weekend just got one added it to it.

HM64


----------



## joe kidd

EI. Wasn't really calling you out. Just was wondering about the thought process.


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Thats a relief to know the your friend wans'nt actually covering for you during the A,when I read that post by B1 it disturbed me somewhat.
> I'm sorry about her step son and D Day must have been hell.
> CSS had a couple friends that tried to talk sense into her when she was texting and meeting her AP,they kept telling her " you love your husband and cant trust a hs bf from 20 years ago".
> Sadly one of her friends who I thought was also a friend of mine encouraged her to do whatever made her feel good,told her to go for it and condoned her A.
> That is until she started seeing how the OM was lying threw what little teeth he had,I even saw the FB post where OM,CSS and what I thought was a friend were yucking it up together.
> Her "friend doesnt know it yet but I never want to see her again,I dont want CSS around her or talking to her either.
> This "friend" used to tell CSS that she had a good man and CSS was lucky.
> A 20 year friendship down the drain.Its sad and it sickens the hell out of me.
> I will never talk to her again and I dont want CSS to either.
> Friends dont do that kind of crap......its really sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't really talk to anyone other than my therapist about my affair, although anyone that knew me, well enough, knew that I was very, very unhappy in my marriage. My friend that I had dinner with last night was aware of my affair, but it wasn't something that we were able to talk about very much as she was dealing with her step-son's illness. She has known B1 as long as I have and thinks very, very highly of him, always has. But, she also knew of the long-standing issues within our marriage. She never knew that I had "used" her once as a cover, she never condoned my affair, and tried very hard to persuade me to handle things differently. She was very burdened about the whole situation, but as a best friend, she knew all of the reasons that I felt that "divorce" was not an option because of our children and our finances. She didn't abandon me or withdraw her friendship... she loves me in spite of my failures. I think that is what a best friend does. She and I have been friends for a very long time and have supported one another through many a crises.

I would say that other than B1, myself, our children and my in-laws, no one other than my friend is happier that B1 and I are doing as well as we are.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> EI. Wasn't really calling you out. Just was wondering about the thought process.


It's okay, I know that, Joe, and I was doing my very best to give an in-depth perspective. I don't mind it at all...... I think that the more honest people are willing to be, the more they learn about themselves and, again, if even one person reads this and it helps them in any way.... then, at least something good can come from something so devastating.

You know, that is one of the things I _loooooooove_, about this thread; we can be so silly, so goofy, so anything, and I think that is a part of reconciliation, too, comic relief.... and then, we can do what we're doing right now. Breaking down the anatomy of an affair..... "why, how, when, where?" Because, that is one of the ways we can help each other.


----------



## happyman64

> I would say that other than B1, myself, our children and my in-laws, no one other than my friend is happier that B1 and I are doing as well as we are.


Correction: all of us on TAM are ecstatic that you and B1 are doing so well.

I speak for the collective.


----------



## SomedayDig

I am the collective. I have been assimilated. 


Sorry...Star Trek reference. You may continue.


----------



## pidge70

SomedayDig said:


> I am the collective. I have been assimilated.
> 
> 
> Sorry...Star Trek reference. You may continue.


Not the Borg!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Resistance is futile you will be assimilated! -Borg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> Empty Inside, what you friend had to say about it? I mean using her as a cover not the affair itself. What about the other friend?


Well, she didn't know that I had told B1 that I was going to be with her. Like, I said earlier, if I had gotten caught, then I would have simply gotten caught. I did not want to put anyone in the position of having to lie for me. In all honesty, I don't have the kind of friends who would have lied for me anyway. I never called anyone, when I was using them as my cover story, and asked them not to call my house or to vouch for me in any way. Believe it or not.... even "cheaters," at least this one, have some boundaries. I always gave B1 my "cover story" and hoped for the best. Most anyone who wanted to reach me called on my cell phone rather than the land line, anyway. And, the truth is, B1 never checked up on me. He never asked me any questions the next day about whether or not I'd had a good time out with my "girlfriend" or anything about what we did. I was coming home increasingly later and later and he didn't even become aware of it until the last two weeks before D-Day, which is when his antennae started going up..... that, or his Testosterone injections were beginning to kick-in... because I noticed that he was starting to get "gropy" with me. He never knew when I would get home because I wasn't sleeping in the bedroom, anymore. One of you guys can ask him about what I did to him two weeks before D-Day when he and I were on our way to his cousin's wedding. At this point in our marriage, the only things we did, together, anymore, unless it was "kid" related, were holidays and birthday parties for the kids and other family members.

Back to my friend. After D-Day, and several weeks after her step-son were buried I finally told my friend that I had used her as a cover story at one point. I told her that B1 already knew that I had lied when I said that I was with her. The first thing she wanted to know was whether or not B1 was aware that she was not complicit in my deception. I told her that he knew she didn't know she was "covering" for me. After that, she just told me she was glad that it was over between me and the xOM and that she hoped that B1 and I could work things out. She forgave me. She's a true friend.

Acabado, as far as the other friend. I did go out with her, on occasion, for dinner and drinks. She is my hairdresser and I have known her for over 20 years. She never knew that I used her as my "cover story" about 90% of the time. I figured that B1 would never ask, but if he had mentioned it to her... she would have assumed that he was referring to the times that she and I did go out. She still doesn't know, to this day, that she was my "cover story." As my long-time hair dresser, (kind of like a bartender for you guys) she knew that I had been very unhappy in my marriage for years, but she didn't really know about my affair.


----------



## EI

happyman64 said:


> EI
> 
> Friends like that are rare indeed.
> 
> What is even greater than that is B1 understands this and appreciates your friendship.
> 
> Glad you had a night out away from "it" all.
> 
> Sad to hear about her son. Way too young. I hope you are able to offer comfort to your friend.
> 
> My TAM prayer list for this weekend just got one added it to it.
> 
> HM64





happyman64 said:


> Correction: all of us on TAM are ecstatic that you and B1 are doing so well.
> 
> I speak for the collective.


Thank you, HM64, and thank you, again!


----------



## Mr Blunt

Ok I just started reading this thread so I know I do no know much about any of you. I think that this thread is so very valuable as you get to hear people that are giving real hope to dealing with the giant marriage killer, INFIDELTY

I get to see that there are many ways to gain on putting a relationship back together.

I did finally find out that Wazza and his wife have been in this war for over 20 years and they seem to be doing real good. I am sure there are others that have years of battling this beast and have proven that Infidelity does not mean a mandatory divorce and/or a bitter and regretful life.

*If someone (Empty Inside?) that know all the people here that are gaining and would give a summary I would appreciate that*. I did read enough to know that Empty Inside is a strong woman and that is why I prefer caller her STEEL Inside.

I do want to point out a post that totally got my attention. This post shows a person that shows such strength, humility, accountability, responsibility, forgiveness and other positive spiritual traits. That person is Betrayed1 and his post is #149 of this thread. *Betrayed1 that post 149 was OUTSTANDING!*

I came to this thread (Reconciliation) because I needed to hear some winners. I understand those that are lashing out with accusations and calling of names; I have even done that a time or two. However, if you want to be a winner I think that you have to get past that stage and take the steps that involve strength, humility, accountability, responsibility, forgiveness, and other spiritual traits. Betrayed1 reminds me of Titanium; it is hard to shape but when it is shaped it is so strong and used in aerospace. My reference to these metals is because I used to be a machinist.

My metal analogies aside, *I want to make the point that Betyrayed1 post 149 is full of strength and other positive qualities.*


----------



## SomedayDig

My summary: Dday 3/6/12. Totally out of the blue. I had no idea this was going on and I was shocked and dismayed to find out that Regret had been having her affair for 5 years. I had been a private jet pilot for 10 years and that kind of on call stuff had me away from home quite often. Because of that, October last year I couldn't bear the thought of another winter away from my family. I decided to call it quits. I knew that Regret and I had communication issues, however I thought with my being home that we could work through them. 
We are working on reconciliation. We have a lot of hope that it will work out. Both of us are in IC and we will be starting with MC next week. Our first MC was not that great.


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> My summary: Dday 3/6/12. Totally out of the blue. I had no idea this was going on and I was shocked and dismayed to find out that Regret had been having her affair for 5 years. I had been a private jet pilot for 10 years and that kind of on call stuff had me away from home quite often. Because of that, October last year I couldn't bear the thought of another winter away from my family. I decided to call it quits. I knew that Regret and I had communication issues, however I thought with my being home that we could work through them.
> We are working on reconciliation. We have a lot of hope that it will work out. Both of us are in IC and we will be starting with MC next week. Our first MC was not that great.


I asked CSS a few times if there was someone,the one thing she forgot to do was clear her history on her phone.
I saw the love horoscopes she was looking at every day and it was'nt my birthday.
I took her out after our last MC and got her drunk.
She said she wanted us to start dating other people,after I questioned the hell out of her she fessed up,refused to quit seeing him so I kicked her out,I did'nt sleep for three days.
Her "soul mate" blew her off.
After a week of living in her sisters houses I asked if she wanted one last shot,she did.
Funny,she kept telling me she did'nt love me know she says she did'nt stop...confusing still to this day.
I almost did'nt make it through that week,an old man talked me down off of an overpass.
I'll never go through this again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Mr Blunt said:


> Ok I just started reading this thread so I know I do no know much about any of you. I think that this thread is so very valuable as you get to hear people that are giving real hope to dealing with the giant marriage killer, INFIDELTY
> 
> I get to see that there are many ways to gain on putting a relationship back together.
> 
> I did finally find out that Wazza and his wife have been in this war for over 20 years and they seem to be doing real good. I am sure there are others that have years of battling this beast and have proven that Infidelity does not mean a mandatory divorce and/or a bitter and regretful life.
> 
> *If someone (Empty Inside?) that know all the people here that are gaining and would give a summary I would appreciate that*. I did read enough to know that Empty Inside is a strong woman and that is why I prefer caller her STEEL Inside.
> 
> I do want to point out a post that totally got my attention. This post shows a person that shows such strength, humility, accountability, responsibility, forgiveness and other positive spiritual traits. That person is Betrayed1 and his post is #149 of this thread. *Betrayed1 that post 149 was OUTSTANDING!*
> 
> I came to this thread (Reconciliation) because I needed to hear some winners. I understand those that are lashing out with accusations and calling of names; I have even done that a time or two. However, if you want to be a winner I think that you have to get past that stage and take the steps that involve strength, humility, accountability, responsibility, forgiveness, and other spiritual traits. Betrayed1 reminds me of Titanium; it is hard to shape but when it is shaped it is so strong and used in aerospace. My reference to these metals is because I used to be a machinist.
> 
> My metal analogies aside, *I want to make the point that Betyrayed1 post 149 is full of strength and other positive qualities.*


WOW...thank you Mr. B. Thank you for saying those kind words, they mean a lot to me. I am truly humbled!

I went back myself and re-read that post, man that is hard to read. I was just telling EI again last night how sorry I am for those years. One of the words I use now on her about what she did to me is one she told me many times over pre-a. "_I feel less than..."_ I get it now. I know what that feels like and it's awful. EI hates that I feel this way sometimes, she says if only I could read her mind that all my fears and insecurities would be gone.

Before someone jumps on this, YES, EI tells me all the time how sorry she is for what she did. She has gone as far to say, if she could give her life and know we would all be better and happy she would do it, without question. She HATES what she did, what she had become. We are both sorry for our parts in destroying that old marriage. But hey, we have a new one now, FAR better then that old one...and so far so good 

Also,
Mr. B thank you for the metal analogy I am truly humbled. I sometimes do not feel strong, I feel wounded and hurt. Other times, I feel the strength, but it comes and goes. I want to always be strong for EI and my family. But, this A really did a number on me and it's taking some time to rebuild my strength. 

This R isn't easy street, I know many see our jokes and teasing on here and think, whoa...they made it or they only think they made it. Truth is, things can turn sour fast, as we all see on here. Just two weeks ago me and EI were arguing a lot for a couple days and working through something, you all didn't see that. We are only posting a small part of what really goes on at home. 

I can't say we have made it, and I dare say anyone on here has really made it yet, But...we are definitely on the right road to making it and doing what it takes to make it. We are committed to this marriage and even more so, committed to ourselves, we know we have to work on ourselves too, and we are.


----------



## pidge70

> Titanium; it is hard to shape but when it is shaped it is so strong and used in aerospace.


I have titanium in my head.......lol No really, after I had a craniotomy in June. Here is a link to the sexiness.....lol You have to scroll down to Joe's post. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/47940-pics-your-scars-6.html


----------



## Highway run

Hard work!! Keeping focused on the end goal of happiness! You have to fight for happiness it does not just fall into your lap!!


----------



## jh52

Let me just say to all those in R, that sometimes I think you are to hard on yourselves.

Not only are you working through normal, everyday life/family/spouse things -- which in itself is one hell of a task -- but you are all dealing with the death of an old marriage -- and trying to start/maintain/etc a new marraige.

Not an easy task for anyone -- so to all the people in R on TAM -- sometimes step back and give yourselves a break. 

No one is pulling for all the couples in R, and on this thread more than I.


----------



## Acabado

Thanks for answering EI. You have indeed a great friend.
My wife used a friend as a cover a few times. She doesn't know about the affair, won't know ever if depends on me. Knowing her for ages (she's an abandoned BW) I'm rather sure she'd rip a new one to my wife for the affair but she'd cut the friendship for good for the cover up.


----------



## EI

2asdf2 said:


> EI:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> (Just saying "Hi!" to my one friend here.)


Hey *2asdf2,*

Tell us your story! 
*********************************************
Everyone else, I'll post more later. *Mr. Blunt*, your post was very, very kind. Thank you very much for that. It looks like Dig and Calvin have, both, already given you a summary of their situations. Regret and CSS, their wives, can also add to them, if they'd like. Men are soooo much better at "_summarizing_" things than I am!  I tend to write.... novels, well, just little.... novellas. Hopefully, Joe and/or Pidge will weigh in with a summary today or tomorrow. We also have acobado, margrace, daisygirl, Hope1964 and most recently, ChangingMe who are posting, on this thread, without their spouses posting alongside of them. Wazza contributes, occasionally. I hope I haven't missed anyone. Hopefully, they will kindly post a brief summary of their current state of reconciliation. We are all in various places in our journeys. Anyone else who read, lurks, or posts, occasionally, is welcomed to share their story, as well!

Mr. Blunt, we'd love to hear your story, too!

Take care,
~EI


----------



## CantSitStill

With us changing counselors it looks like we have to start all over with summarizing our story. Boy is that gonna be hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> I have titanium in my head.......lol No really, after I had a craniotomy in June. Here is a link to the sexiness.....lol You have to scroll down to Joe's post.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/47940-pics-your-scars-6.html


Pigde how are things going over there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

CantSitStill said:


> Pigde how are things going over there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> Better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> With us changing counselors it looks like we have to start all over with summarizing our story. Boy is that gonna be hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You both need to do whatever it takes !!


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> I have titanium in my head.......lol No really, after I had a craniotomy in June. Here is a link to the sexiness.....lol You have to scroll down to Joe's post.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/47940-pics-your-scars-6.html



That was actually painful to look at. Am I the only one, here, who suffers a physical pain response when someone else is in pain or when I even see pictures of "painful" looking things? I've been that way my whole life. When I say, "I feel your pain," I really mean "I feel your pain!" I wonder if there is a "name" for that _condition_?

So, what exactly happened to cause that, Pidge?


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> That was actually painful to look at. Am I the only one, here, who suffers a physical pain response when someone else is in pain or when I even see pictures of "painful" looking things? I've been that way my whole life. When I say, "I feel your pain," I really mean "I feel your pain!" I wonder if there is a "name" for that _condition_?
> 
> So, what exactly happened to cause that, Pidge?


Here you go EI.

Feeling the pain of others – Neurophilosophy


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> Here you go EI.
> 
> Feeling the pain of others – Neurophilosophy



Wow, jh, that's it! And, I have never once Googled that and I Google everything. I get a very sharp stabbing pain right in my gut when I see something painful.... the severity of it depends upon the severity of what I'm seeing. Even pictures and movies will get a "pain response" out of me. And, any picture or sad story about animals, particularly dogs, can make me have a very strong pain response.

Anybody else do that?


You're so good to me, jh, thank you!


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Wow, jh, that's it! And, I have never once Googled that and I Google everything. I get a very sharp stabbing pain right in my gut when I see something painful.... the severity of it depends upon the severity of what I'm seeing. Even pictures and movies will get a "pain response" out of me. And, any picture or sad story about animals, particularly dogs, can make me have a very strong pain response.
> 
> Anybody else do that?
> 
> 
> You're so good to me, jh, thank you!


Google is my middle name !!


----------



## Anymum

Pidge, take care- glad to hear you are doing better. 

AM


----------



## ChangingMe

Pidge, so glad to hear that you two are doing better. 


As for my story, I am married to DevistatedDad on here. We've been married 12.5 years, have a 3 and a 5 year old. Last fall, I started FB messaging occasionally with a friend of ours, and that grew into an EA, which my husband discovered in February when he checked my phone and found some pretty graphic texts. DD confronted the OM, but did not tell his wife, and we all remained friends. 

OM and I did not contact each other for several weeks, but saw each other in group settings. Then he showed up at my office one day, and things started up again, progressing into a PA. DD was checking up on me and put a recorder on my cell, and on June 19, he heard me and OM having sex. God, I am so ashamed to even type that. 

DD threw me out of the house for about 2 months, during which I lived with my parents, and we took turns with the kids. I realized immediately the magnitude of the mistake I made, and I have had NC with OM since that day. DD has gone back and forth on whether he is willing to try to work through this or whether he wants out of the marriage. We have "good" weeks and bad. 

I have done all I know to do to prove that I am remorseful, ashamed, and want nothing more than to work things out and be with my husband. I am praying that one day he will believe me and be willing to fully commit to reconciling. 

He's been triggering a lot lately. This morning, we were texting after I took the kids to school, but then when I got to my office, I put my purse away, and it had my phone in it. I was busy working, and about an hour or so later, DD showed up. I let him in and he was clearly worked up. Apparently, he had texted me 3 times, and I hadn't responded, and his immediate thought was that I was cheating on him (I cheated at my office, so the office itself is a trigger -I move offices in January). I did my best to comfort him, and I offered to let him search the whole office, as well as to look at all the office phone records and my work computer while he was there. I did not mind him showing up at all -it's amazing how much better it feels to be checked up on when you know you have nothing to hide! I just felt bad that his mind went to that place, just because I hadn't been paying attention to my phone. 

We ended up grabbing an early lunch together, which hopefully helped to get him a little more out of the bad place, and I am going to work harder to keep my phone close by and respond to his texts ASAP, so he won't get so stressed.


----------



## jim123

ChangingMe said:


> Pidge, so glad to hear that you two are doing better.
> 
> 
> As for my story, I am married to DevistatedDad on here. We've been married 12.5 years, have a 3 and a 5 year old. Last fall, I started FB messaging occasionally with a friend of ours, and that grew into an EA, which my husband discovered in February when he checked my phone and found some pretty graphic texts. DD confronted the OM, but did not tell his wife, and we all remained friends.
> 
> OM and I did not contact each other for several weeks, but saw each other in group settings. Then he showed up at my office one day, and things started up again, progressing into a PA. DD was checking up on me and put a recorder on my cell, and on June 19, he heard me and OM having sex. God, I am so ashamed to even type that.
> 
> DD threw me out of the house for about 2 months, during which I lived with my parents, and we took turns with the kids. I realized immediately the magnitude of the mistake I made, and I have had NC with OM since that day. DD has gone back and forth on whether he is willing to try to work through this or whether he wants out of the marriage. We have "good" weeks and bad.
> 
> I have done all I know to do to prove that I am remorseful, ashamed, and want nothing more than to work things out and be with my husband. I am praying that one day he will believe me and be willing to fully commit to reconciling.
> 
> He's been triggering a lot lately. This morning, we were texting after I took the kids to school, but then when I got to my office, I put my purse away, and it had my phone in it. I was busy working, and about an hour or so later, DD showed up. I let him in and he was clearly worked up. Apparently, he had texted me 3 times, and I hadn't responded, and his immediate thought was that I was cheating on him (I cheated at my office, so the office itself is a trigger -I move offices in January). I did my best to comfort him, and I offered to let him search the whole office, as well as to look at all the office phone records and my work computer while he was there. I did not mind him showing up at all -it's amazing how much better it feels to be checked up on when you know you have nothing to hide! I just felt bad that his mind went to that place, just because I hadn't been paying attention to my phone.
> 
> We ended up grabbing an early lunch together, which hopefully helped to get him a little more out of the bad place, and I am going to work harder to keep my phone close by and respond to his texts ASAP, so he won't get so stressed.


OM is leaving town soon so I would expect he will be more on edge as he fears a farewell ....

It has to be killing him.


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow, thank you for sharing your story.. I hope the best for you. I understand the triggering. I slept in real late yesterday and it scared my hubby because I was asleep so long while he was trying to text me. Like you, I want him to check on me so that he realises he has nothing to worry about. i Have nothing to hide. I will never go talking to or having anything to do with another man.. get ready for some really bad days of him having flashbacks. Just be there for him. If you both really want R then you will both hold on tight. Do not be surprised if he has days he tells you he don't know if he can go on. Stay strong and always reassure him as much as possible. We broke our spouses hearts into pieces and it's not a quick fix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> As for my story, I am married to DevistatedDad on here. We've been married 12.5 years, have a 3 and a 5 year old. Last fall, I started FB messaging occasionally with a friend of ours, and that grew into an EA, which my husband discovered in February when he checked my phone and found some pretty graphic texts. DD confronted the OM, but did not tell his wife, and we all remained friends.
> 
> OM and I did not contact each other for several weeks, but saw each other in group settings. Then he showed up at my office one day, and things started up again, progressing into a PA. DD was checking up on me and put a recorder on my cell, and on June 19, he heard me and OM having sex. God, I am so ashamed to even type that.
> 
> DD threw me out of the house for about 2 months, during which I lived with my parents, and we took turns with the kids. I realized immediately the magnitude of the mistake I made, and I have had NC with OM since that day. DD has gone back and forth on whether he is willing to try to work through this or whether he wants out of the marriage. We have "good" weeks and bad.
> 
> I have done all I know to do to prove that I am remorseful, ashamed, and want nothing more than to work things out and be with my husband. I am praying that one day he will believe me and be willing to fully commit to reconciling.
> 
> He's been triggering a lot lately. This morning, we were texting after I took the kids to school, but then when I got to my office, I put my purse away, and it had my phone in it. I was busy working, and about an hour or so later, DD showed up. I let him in and he was clearly worked up. Apparently, he had texted me 3 times, and I hadn't responded, and his immediate thought was that I was cheating on him (I cheated at my office, so the office itself is a trigger -I move offices in January). I did my best to comfort him, and I offered to let him search the whole office, as well as to look at all the office phone records and my work computer while he was there. I did not mind him showing up at all -it's amazing how much better it feels to be checked up on when you know you have nothing to hide! I just felt bad that his mind went to that place, just because I hadn't been paying attention to my phone.
> 
> We ended up grabbing an early lunch together, which hopefully helped to get him a little more out of the bad place, and I am going to work harder to keep my phone close by and respond to his texts ASAP, so he won't get so stressed.


Hey CM,

I have literally driven myself crazy, at times, making sure that I am accountable for my time and locations, only to learn that B1 isn't really even worrying about the same things that I am. I have become very aware of the "little things" that I can say and do that make a big difference one way or the other in easing his mind. I had gone to the grocery last week and had gotten off to a late start.... can't remember why, now. But, because I started late I wasn't home by the time B1 got home from work. As I was pushing my basket of groceries to the car, my cell phone started ringing and I assumed it was B1 wondering why I still wasn't home. So, I am in the middle of the parking lot trying to dig my phone from my purse and having no luck before it goes to voice mail. Turns out is was just our daughter... but, it did give me a a near anxiety attack. I went to dinner with a girlfriend the other night and kept taking pictures of the two of us at the restaurant and sending them to B1. The funny part is that my friend is very vain and doesn't like to have her picture taken unless she is "picture perfect." I said, "I don't care how ya look, you're gettin' in this picture with me or else!" LOL 

Finally, I find myself worrying that B1 will think that I spend too much time on TAM during the day and not getting enough done at home.... although, he has NEVER been one to complain about what I get done during the day. He knows I handle plenty at home. Anyway, I do most of my work in the kitchen where the PC is, so even when I'm online I am still doing laundry, cooking, paperwork, etc. But, sometimes, if I'm not posting I won't log on and then, I figure he won't "see" how much time I spend on TAM.... because I know he is logged on from work, too. Tonight, he told me that it always gives him a little bit of comfort when he can see that I'm logged on TAM because then he knows where I am. I guess it's funny how "little things" make such a "big" difference. I guess I'll be logging on more often, now.

I think that the fact that DD showed up at your office clearly states two things: 1. He loves you very much and, 2. He is still in a great deal of pain and doesn't fully trust you, yet. I think that remembering to keep your phone close by is a great idea.... it's a little things that means a lot. I, often, text B1 throughout the day just to tell him that I love him and that I am thinking of him.

I do think that DD will feel much more at ease after the xOM is packed up and out of town for good.


----------



## B1

Trusting..
I know I say I trust and I do, but I have to admit, seeing EI online here does make me feel better, because I know where she is and what she is doing. Yes, I also know that she could be logged on and still be doing something bad. But...in my heart, I know she won't do anything. However, seeing her online gives me just a little piece of security, something that many of us BS's lack. I will take it anyway I can get it. 

btw. had a great morning turned a little bad, then back to good, then back to scary, then back to really good, then back to bad, and then back to good with some resolve....we actually got somewhere with a certain issue and it was out of the blue while I was walking out the door this morning. What a strange time to have a VERY serious talk, but we did, her at the door, and me standing in the garage. There was anger, tears, deep emotions, etc. but I think we turned a corner this morning, I feel like we did. EI was a little wore out and very emotional when I left, so was I. a little AC\DC on the way to work woke me up though. I just hope EI is doing ok. 
I just love her so much! 

She has a very busy morning taking our S\N son to the doctor for x-rays and a checkup. We don't expect it to go well, his legs are hurting him bad and they shouldn't be. We fear more surgeries are coming. This is just more she has to worry about, plan for etc.

Make no mistake, EI is a good person, with a big heart. She loves to please and help, she wants to make a difference in life. She is also hurting right now and I hate that. We really hurt each other bad and that just sucks. But, we are dealing with it head on, nothing is being swept under the rug, the issues we struggle with are discussed time and time again. She has counseling tomorrow which is good, she needs it.

sorry for the long ramble..


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Trusting..
> I know I say I trust and I do, but I have to admit, seeing EI online here does make me feel better, because I know where she is and what she is doing. Yes, I also know that she could be logged on and still be doing something bad. But...in my heart, I know she won't do anything. However, seeing her online gives me just a little piece of security, something that many of us BS's lack. I will take it anyway I can get it.
> 
> btw. had a great morning turned a little bad, then back to good, then back to scary, then back to really good, then back to bad, and then back to good with some resolve....we actually got somewhere with a certain issue and it was out of the blue while I was walking out the door this morning. What a strange time to have a VERY serious talk, but we did, her at the door, and me standing in the garage. There was anger, tears, deep emotions, etc. but I think we turned a corner this morning, I feel like we did. EI was a little wore out and very emotional when I left, so was I. a little AC\DC on the way to work woke me up though. I just hope EI is doing ok.
> I just love her so much!
> 
> She has a very busy morning taking our S\N son to the doctor for x-rays and a checkup. We don't expect it to go well, his legs are hurting him bad and they shouldn't be. We fear more surgeries are coming. This is just more she has to worry about, plan for etc.
> 
> Make no mistake, EI is a good person, with a big heart. She loves to please and help, she wants to make a difference in life. She is also hurting right now and I hate that. We really hurt each other bad and that just sucks. But, we are dealing with it head on, nothing is being swept under the rug, the issues we struggle with are discussed time and time again. She has counseling tomorrow which is good, she needs it.
> 
> sorry for the long ramble..


Ramble, vent, scream, yell --- it's all good on here B1. 

Honest communications is the key to any relationship -- always has been and always will be !!


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

I love both of you.

The love you both have for each other is awesome.

The fact that you two hurt each other so badly but still fight for each other and your marriage is inspiring.


Do not stop being honest, caring or loving each other.........


Till the day you die.


----------



## Acabado

CM, while being phone glued is actually one of those huge red flags we betrayed spouses start noticing now is time to be surgery attached to it. Furthermore, check up on him frequently. Ask him what you can do for him.

Deep down he knows now things are different, you are different. When he's calm he knows you won't reach out OM again but any small - out of the blue - trigger will drive him into the endless loop of irrational thoughts he feels unable to stop.

Be sure he eats properly, balanced meals, drop the junk food. Be sure he sleeps properly as best he can.

Best wishes


----------



## pidge70

Empty Inside said:


> That was actually painful to look at. Am I the only one, here, who suffers a physical pain response when someone else is in pain or when I even see pictures of "painful" looking things? I've been that way my whole life. When I say, "I feel your pain," I really mean "I feel your pain!" I wonder if there is a "name" for that _condition_?
> 
> So, what exactly happened to cause that, Pidge?


I'm not sure what caused the hematoma. The doctor kept asking me if I had hit my head, been in a wreck, fell......etc. I think it may have been from my 3yr old head butting me to be honest. Kid has a head like a concrete block. When I was in the ER and they did a CAT scan and told me what was going on, I started crying. All I heard was "shave your head", I didn't hear the rest.....lol Later it dawned on me that my head would be cut open like a can of dog food. There were 23 staples in my head. I also have a scar on the left side of my forehead from a burr hole being drilled in. The pressure from the blood clot shifted my brain. I still get headaches. This is a CAT scan photo of what it looks like. You can see the metal in my head.


----------



## SomedayDig

Regret has her first meeting with her new IC today. It's a counselor in the same practice as my IC. The one she was going to just wasn't cutting it. She was big into rug sweeping stuff. She was the MC that we began with and I couldn't take her any more. The good news is that next Tuesday we have a meeting with a new MC. A woman who actually just came back from a sabbatical to write about infidelity! Fingers crossed for both.


----------



## joe kidd

pidge70 said:


> I'm not sure what caused the hematoma. The doctor kept asking me if I had hit my head, been in a wreck, fell......etc. I think it may have been from my 3yr old head butting me to be honest. Kid has a head like a concrete block. When I was in the ER and they did a CAT scan and told me what was going on, I started crying. All I heard was "shave your head", I didn't hear the rest.....lol Later it dawned on me that my head would be cut open like a can of dog food. There were 23 staples in my head. I also have a scar on the left side of my forehead from a burr hole being drilled in. The pressure from the blood clot shifted my brain. I still get headaches. This is a CAT scan photo of what it looks like. You can see the metal in my head.


Metal Plate, Cousin Eddie - YouTube


----------



## Acabado

Fingers crossed !


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> I'm not sure what caused the hematoma. The doctor kept asking me if I had hit my head, been in a wreck, fell......etc. I think it may have been from my 3yr old head butting me to be honest. Kid has a head like a concrete block. When I was in the ER and they did a CAT scan and told me what was going on, I started crying. All I heard was "shave your head", I didn't hear the rest.....lol Later it dawned on me that my head would be cut open like a can of dog food. There were 23 staples in my head. I also have a scar on the left side of my forehead from a burr hole being drilled in. The pressure from the blood clot shifted my brain. I still get headaches. This is a CAT scan photo of what it looks like. You can see the metal in my head.


That is just unbelievable... oh my.... you must have been scared to death. And, the hair, I would have been the same way.... I haven't changed my hair style since the late 70's. I had "big hair" before "big hair" was in. I will, no doubt, die with "big hair."

This wasn't the type of surgery where you had to actually be awake, was it? It seems like so many times when the scalp/head is cut into, that the patient has to be awake. They can't move or feel pain, but they can see, hear and smell everything.... or have I just been watching too many medical TV shows?


----------



## EI

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I love both of you.
> 
> The love you both have for each other is awesome.
> 
> The fact that you two hurt each other so badly but still fight for each other and your marriage is inspiring.
> 
> 
> Do not stop being honest, caring or loving each other.........
> 
> 
> Till the day you die.


Thank you, HM. That is exactly what B1 and I are doing, now.... caring for each other, loving each other and doing so in complete honesty, we're fighting for our marriage instead of fighting with each other. And, that feels completely different. We're fighting *for* something..... each other.  There are so many layers to peel back. There are certain things that B1 and I, each, need from one another. And, it is vitally important, to both of us, that we are able to provide those needs without sacrificing our own sense of self, sense of value and sense of worth. We are refusing to rug sweep anything, anymore. Rug sweeping pertains to so many areas of our lives, not just in matters of infidelity. We have talked about things that we thought were long forgotten and buried away. But, they weren't, they were simmering just beneath the surface, waiting for an opportunity, a crack, a vulnerability..... and, let me tell you, an affair will blow the lid off of even the most well-packaged, well-preserved and publicly envied marriage... 

But, here we are.... and it seems to me that when B1 and I have one of those "talks" that kind that you think will make you or break you.... we keep coming out stronger and stronger. I remember how things used to be between us before they got so damn hard. It was always he and I against the world.... crusading for the well-being of the underdogs! I *thought* we were unstoppable back then.... and then we ran into our biggest obstacle.... EVER.... ourselves. Now, we are crusading for our marriage, our life and our love. And, this time, I *know* we are unstoppable.

_B1, I looooooove you!_

_I'm gonna need you to hold me tonight!_


----------



## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> Thank you, HM. That is exactly what B1 and I are doing, now.... caring for each other, loving each other and doing so in complete honesty, we're fighting for our marriage instead of fighting with each other. And, that feels completely different. We're fighting *for* something..... each other. There are so many layers to peel back. There are certain things that B1 and I, each, need from one another. And, it is vitally important, to both of us, that we are able to provide those needs without sacrificing our own sense of self, sense of value and sense of worth. We are refusing to rug sweep anything, anymore. Rug sweeping pertains to so many areas of our lives, not just in matters of infidelity. We have talked about things that we thought were long forgotten and buried away. But, they weren't, they were simmering just beneath the surface, waiting for an opportunity, a crack, a vulnerability..... and, let me tell you, an affair will blow the lid off of even the most well-packaged, well-preserved and publicly envied marriage...
> 
> But, here we are.... and it seems to me that when B1 and I have one of those "talks" that kind that you think will make you or break you.... we keep coming out stronger and stronger. I remember how things used to be between us before they got so damn hard. It was always he and I against the world.... crusading for the well-being of the underdogs! I *thought* we were unstoppable back then.... and then we ran into our biggest obstacle.... EVER.... ourselves. Now, we are crusading for our marriage, our life and our love. And, this time, I *know* we are unstoppable.
> 
> _B1, I looooooove you!_
> 
> _I'm gonna need you to hold me tonight!_


Wow that is exactly what's going on with calvin and me.  I used to avoid conflict, just run away from it but now we are both learning how to deal with issues instead of just throwing our hands up and saying ahh screw it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

pidge70 said:


> I'm not sure what caused the hematoma. The doctor kept asking me if I had hit my head, been in a wreck, fell......etc. I think it may have been from my 3yr old head butting me to be honest. Kid has a head like a concrete block. When I was in the ER and they did a CAT scan and told me what was going on, I started crying. All I heard was "shave your head", I didn't hear the rest.....lol Later it dawned on me that my head would be cut open like a can of dog food. There were 23 staples in my head. I also have a scar on the left side of my forehead from a burr hole being drilled in. The pressure from the blood clot shifted my brain. I still get headaches. This is a CAT scan photo of what it looks like. You can see the metal in my head.


Pidge -- I know I have told you this before -- but just wanted to say again that you are in my thoughts -- all positive thoughts coming your way.


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow Pidge, just looked at that, it's huge
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

CantSitStill said:


> Wow Pidge, just looked at that, it's huge
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What? My head?....:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

jh52 said:


> Pidge -- I know I have told you this before -- but just wanted to say again that you are in my thoughts -- all positive thoughts coming your way.


Thank you jh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Empty Inside said:


> That is just unbelievable... oh my.... you must have been scared to death. And, the hair, I would have been the same way.... I haven't changed my hair style since the late 70's. I had "big hair" before "big hair" was in. I will, no doubt, die with "big hair."
> 
> This wasn't the type of surgery where you had to actually be awake, was it? It seems like so many times when the scalp/head is cut into, that the patient has to be awake. They can't move or feel pain, but they can see, hear and smell everything.... or have I just been watching too many medical TV shows?


Yes, I was very scared. I was knocked out for the surgery. No way could I have done it had I had to be awake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> What? My head?....:rofl:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would'nt look at it til CSS showed me the pic.
Holy sh!t...
I'm speachless.
Youre a tough cookie,nothing you and joe cant handle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> I would'nt look at it til CSS showed me the pic.
> Holy sh!t...
> I'm speachless.
> Youre a tough cookie,nothing you and joe cant handle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which pic? The CAT scan or my scar pic?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

I hurts just looking at it. Good Lord.


----------



## CantSitStill

only the x-ray one..couldn't find the other ones from the scar thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

CantSitStill said:


> only the x-ray one..couldn't find the other ones from the scar thread
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry it is so big.


----------



## EI

*ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*


----------



## pidge70

Empty Inside said:


> *ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> *


----------



## Badblood

Pidge, the scars on the outside of your melon aren't nearly as important as the health of what is inside it. I feel that you are strong enough to overcome this and your problems with Joe, as well. You are a Lady of courage and will always have my support and friendship. Take good care of yourself. BTW, with all of those metal wires in your noggin, are you able to pick up any Alien transmissions? I see a ScFy movie in your future? LOL


----------



## calvin

Maybe Pidge is a alien?
You got one tough nogin Pidge.
Sci Fy movies? lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

*10/01/12*



badblood said:


> if you don't like me, fine, but don't tell me that i'm at fault, because that is just not true. *but being a gentleman, i will accede to your request as a courtesy.*


*Hmmm....????*


*10/07/12*



badblood said:


> ei, do you know what "passive-agressive", is? It is conflict-avoidance, it is criticising somebody, without the appearance of doing so. If you want to criticize me , at least have the decency to call me by name. Now.. Re-read your post and tell me who is really being "passive-agressive"? *if you do not want to "have" me come to this thread, then don't refer to me, and i won't.*


*have to..... really???*



onemoreguy said:


> ....badblood.......i don't have a dog in this fight, but if you honestly think that your advice is leading to these feelings in her, then maybe it is more effective to just do a 180........not everyone is successful in the way they connect with another in getting their point across, and this may be one of those times, no matter who is right or wrong...just a thought...take care...


*10/08/12*



badblood said:


> *as long as i am not refered to, or confronted, i will happily leave this thread, and best of luck to it.*


*You haven't been mentioned once, BB.........*



*10/26/12*



badblood said:


> pidge, the scars on the outside of your melon aren't nearly as important as the health of what is inside it. I feel that you are strong enough to overcome this and your problems with joe, as well. You are a lady of courage and will always have my support and friendship. Take good care of yourself. Btw, with all of those metal wires in your noggin, are you able to pick up any alien transmissions? I see a scfy movie in your future? Lol



*Soooooooooo, what's it gonna take for you to honor your word.... "Gentlemen????"*


----------



## SomedayDig

Soooo...a week ago I saw my doc about my Paxil prescription. It was working great on keeping my mood better and I certainly wasn't obsessing on stuff - which was such an awesome feeling. It was so freeing, I can't describe it. 

Unfortunately, that came with a price. A sexual side effect that, for me, was unacceptable.

I told him about it, and he put me on a different med - Effexor, as it has less sexual side effects and instead of working with seratonin, it works with dopamine. Well, all is well and good with that, except I had to go from Paxil to this low mg Effexor. I've had a rough couple days on the come down. I'm on 37.5mg and it just wasn't enough.

I started getting paranoid. I started going back to the old feelings. It hit hard and it hit fast. I've probably had 6 hours of sleep in the last couple days. Waking up at midnight last night and staying up til 2. The other night waking up at 3 and not going back up til 5:30.

Regret said I should call the doc, which I finally did, and told them I think I need a higher dose. My doc will be in on Monday, so I hate to admit it - but I started taking 2 pills for 75mg, which is a normal dose for most, even thought of being low dosage. Anyway, today I started to feel a bit better. I didn't feel like I was getting in my own way. I was able to get the dishes done and made the bed. I wasn't however, able to get my a$$ off the couch to do leaf blowing.

One day at a time.

Thanks for listening to my rant. Just had to get it out there. Regret has heard it all from me...I just feel like even though I'm the BS - I don't wanna overload her. I love her so much.


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> Soooo...a week ago I saw my doc about my Paxil prescription. It was working great on keeping my mood better and I certainly wasn't obsessing on stuff - which was such an awesome feeling. It was so freeing, I can't describe it.
> 
> Unfortunately, that came with a price. A sexual side effect that, for me, was unacceptable.
> 
> I told him about it, and he put me on a different med - Effexor, as it has less sexual side effects and instead of working with seratonin, it works with dopamine. Well, all is well and good with that, except I had to go from Paxil to this low mg Effexor. I've had a rough couple days on the come down. I'm on 37.5mg and it just wasn't enough.
> 
> I started getting paranoid. I started going back to the old feelings. It hit hard and it hit fast. I've probably had 6 hours of sleep in the last couple days. Waking up at midnight last night and staying up til 2. The other night waking up at 3 and not going back up til 5:30.
> 
> Regret said I should call the doc, which I finally did, and told them I think I need a higher dose. My doc will be in on Monday, so I hate to admit it - but I started taking 2 pills for 75mg, which is a normal dose for most, even thought of being low dosage. Anyway, today I started to feel a bit better. I didn't feel like I was getting in my own way. I was able to get the dishes done and made the bed. I wasn't however, able to get my a$$ off the couch to do leaf blowing.
> 
> One day at a time.
> 
> Thanks for listening to my rant. Just had to get it out there. Regret has heard it all from me...I just feel like even though I'm the BS - I don't wanna overload her. I love her so much.


I never thought of getting meds to help cope. Went through all that crap raw man. Man I bet that would have helped alot.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

joe kidd said:


> I never thought of getting meds to help cope. Went through all that crap raw man. Man I bet that would have helped alot.


It's not too late to explore that option, Joe.


----------



## SomedayDig

I've always come from a very holistic way of life, Joe. The thought of using meds has always been taboo to me. Even when our son was diagnosed with ADHD, I was dead set against meds for him. We did chiropractic, Omega 3's, diet change...however, when it helped a little, it didn't do what HE needed. 

We put him on a mild med and what a difference it made. He is night and day when he's not on it. Very calm and collected.

For us BS's, I would almost say it would be a prerequisite for moving on with our lives. How I went 6+ months without it is crazy. How you've done it this long is beyond me.

Don't think I didn't self medicate with booze, though. However, that ain't good in the end.


----------



## SomedayDig

bobka said:


> It's not too late to explore that option, Joe.


QFT!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> Soooo...a week ago I saw my doc about my Paxil prescription. It was working great on keeping my mood better and I certainly wasn't obsessing on stuff - which was such an awesome feeling. It was so freeing, I can't describe it.
> 
> Unfortunately, that came with a price. A sexual side effect that, for me, was unacceptable.
> 
> I told him about it, and he put me on a different med - Effexor, as it has less sexual side effects and instead of working with seratonin, it works with dopamine. Well, all is well and good with that, except I had to go from Paxil to this low mg Effexor. I've had a rough couple days on the come down. I'm on 37.5mg and it just wasn't enough.
> 
> I started getting paranoid. I started going back to the old feelings. It hit hard and it hit fast. I've probably had 6 hours of sleep in the last couple days. Waking up at midnight last night and staying up til 2. The other night waking up at 3 and not going back up til 5:30.
> 
> Regret said I should call the doc, which I finally did, and told them I think I need a higher dose. My doc will be in on Monday, so I hate to admit it - but I started taking 2 pills for 75mg, which is a normal dose for most, even thought of being low dosage. Anyway, today I started to feel a bit better. I didn't feel like I was getting in my own way. I was able to get the dishes done and made the bed. I wasn't however, able to get my a$$ off the couch to do leaf blowing.
> 
> One day at a time.
> 
> Thanks for listening to my rant. Just had to get it out there. Regret has heard it all from me...I just feel like even though I'm the BS - I don't wanna overload her. I love her so much.


I can now speak with the voice of experience on something here, and am going to: It can take weeks for these drugs to kick in, and also weeks for any negative side-effects to subside. When changing meds, you have to consider this. A week on a med is not what that med will feel like after a month.


----------



## joe kidd

pidge70 said:


> Sorry it is so big.


When she was let out of the hospital we stopped at the store. 
She was in a wheelchair cart thing and looked very rough. She had a black eye and such. People were looking at me like I did that to her. Got tired of it so I said loudly " I bet you won't burn the meatloaf again woman!". She just shook her head and smirked at me.


----------



## SomedayDig

bobka said:


> I can now speak with the voice of experience on something here, and am going to: It can take weeks for these drugs to kick in, and also weeks for any negative side-effects to subside. When changing meds, you have to consider this. A week on a med is not what that med will feel like after a month.


Thanks, man. In my head I know that, but in my...ummm, nether regions - I hate thinking of it!! LOL

I know it will work. I've only been on the new stuff a week and a half.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

joe kidd said:


> when she was let out of the hospital we stopped at the store.
> She was in a wheelchair cart thing and looked very rough. She had a black eye and such. People were looking at me like i did that to her. Got tired of it so i said loudly " i bet you won't burn the meatloaf again woman!". She just shook her head and smirked at me.


rofl!


----------



## CantSitStill

SomedayDig said:


> Soooo...a week ago I saw my doc about my Paxil prescription. It was working great on keeping my mood better and I certainly wasn't obsessing on stuff - which was such an awesome feeling. It was so freeing, I can't describe it.
> 
> Unfortunately, that came with a price. A sexual side effect that, for me, was unacceptable.
> 
> I told him about it, and he put me on a different med - Effexor, as it has less sexual side effects and instead of working with seratonin, it works with dopamine. Well, all is well and good with that, except I had to go from Paxil to this low mg Effexor. I've had a rough couple days on the come down. I'm on 37.5mg and it just wasn't enough.
> 
> I started getting paranoid. I started going back to the old feelings. It hit hard and it hit fast. I've probably had 6 hours of sleep in the last couple days. Waking up at midnight last night and staying up til 2. The other night waking up at 3 and not going back up til 5:30.
> 
> Regret said I should call the doc, which I finally did, and told them I think I need a higher dose. My doc will be in on Monday, so I hate to admit it - but I started taking 2 pills for 75mg, which is a normal dose for most, even thought of being low dosage. Anyway, today I started to feel a bit better. I didn't feel like I was getting in my own way. I was able to get the dishes done and made the bed. I wasn't however, able to get my a$$ off the couch to do leaf blowing.
> 
> One day at a time.
> 
> Thanks for listening to my rant. Just had to get it out there. Regret has heard it all from me...I just feel like even though I'm the BS - I don't wanna overload her. I love her so much.


I am so glad you posted this because I've been thinking of having Calvin check on getting an antidepressant but something that doesn't mess with your seratonin. I was on zoloft and felt real good the first 4 months (took it for my anxiety) anyway then I got sleepy and NO SEX DRIVE. It totally sucked. Told my doctor tat he needs to up it or
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

get me off.. doc disagreed so I weened myself off and take xanax for the anxiety. Anyway thanks for sharing that 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

You got it, CSS. I am telling every BS out there. You're dealing with something that is almost worse than the death of a loved one. I can remember being so sad when my Ma, the only other woman who I ever truly loved, died. I was a wreck for a couple months - but it was nothing like this.

Please, I'm telling ya...go to your doctor and ask for help if you're struggling with depression, anxiety or whatever. I promise you it WILL help you.

It's helped me and, like I said...and Regret will tell ya, I don't take drugs. THIS I will continue to take, though. I have felt more human than I have since March!


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> Soooo...a week ago I saw my doc about my Paxil prescription. It was working great on keeping my mood better and I certainly wasn't obsessing on stuff - which was such an awesome feeling. It was so freeing, I can't describe it.
> 
> Unfortunately, that came with a price. A sexual side effect that, for me, was unacceptable.
> 
> I told him about it, and he put me on a different med - Effexor, as it has less sexual side effects and instead of working with seratonin, it works with dopamine. Well, all is well and good with that, except I had to go from Paxil to this low mg Effexor. I've had a rough couple days on the come down. I'm on 37.5mg and it just wasn't enough.
> 
> I started getting paranoid. I started going back to the old feelings. It hit hard and it hit fast. I've probably had 6 hours of sleep in the last couple days. Waking up at midnight last night and staying up til 2. The other night waking up at 3 and not going back up til 5:30.
> 
> Regret said I should call the doc, which I finally did, and told them I think I need a higher dose. My doc will be in on Monday, so I hate to admit it - but I started taking 2 pills for 75mg, which is a normal dose for most, even thought of being low dosage. Anyway, today I started to feel a bit better. I didn't feel like I was getting in my own way. I was able to get the dishes done and made the bed. I wasn't however, able to get my a$$ off the couch to do leaf blowing.
> 
> One day at a time.
> 
> Thanks for listening to my rant. Just had to get it out there. Regret has heard it all from me...I just feel like even though I'm the BS - I don't wanna overload her. I love her so much.


2 meds that are on the low end of sexual side effects are Wellbutrin and remeron. I am on remeron. I did effexor for a while and liked it but I think it did effect my libido but then again it could have just been my low-t. 

anyway remeron is working OK for me I had to add abilify about a year ago to help. abilify was a miracle fix for me. It keeps me out of a dark dark hole. hopefully I can come off this stuff within a year. My counselor says it's to early right now. I want off this stuff though. not that it's all that bad, it has helped me immensely. I just take so much medicine already...Ugh....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Right after my brother died, followed by my father 16 days later, both sudden and unexpected deaths, I literally thought I was losing my mind. Daddy had lived with us for 8 years. I fell into a deep, deep clinical depression. It took therapy (I've been in and out of therapy since 1997) and 300 mgs. of Effexor a day for the next 3 years to recover from that loss. After 3 years I was able to reduce the dose to 150 mgs. day. 2 1/2 years ago, I was able to completely wean myself off of it.... with my doctor's consent. It took several weeks of reducing it, literally opening the capsules and reducing the granules every day. I read once that a dose as high as 300 mgs. should only be administered to "inpatients" only..... 


BTW...... Dig, "QFT" ???....... You didn't even know what that meant two weeks ago!  Sorry, couldn't resist.... saw that on another thread. LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

LOL, EI... I felt confident using the term!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> LOL, EI... I felt confident using the term!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you did, Dig, I could tell.... Sorry..... Hope I didn't ruin it for you! LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Never!


----------



## calvin

Uughhh


----------



## CantSitStill

love you Calvin now come lotion me up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

yes?


----------



## EI

You okay, Calvin? 

Anyone seen Exsquid around here, lately? It's like he dropped off the face of TAM..... I'm gonna do that one day... I'm gonna get a real life, you'll see!!! :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> You okay, Calvin?
> 
> Anyone seen Exsquid around here, lately? It's like he dropped off the face of TAM..... I'm gonna do that one day... I'm gonna get a real life, you'll see!!! :-/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hanging on by my fingernails tonight.
Think my hands are getting a grip.
How you doing Empty?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Badblood

Empty Inside said:


> *10/01/12*
> 
> 
> 
> *Hmmm....????*
> 
> 
> *10/07/12*
> 
> 
> 
> *have to..... really???*
> 
> 
> 
> *10/08/12*
> 
> 
> 
> *You haven't been mentioned once, BB.........*
> 
> 
> 
> *10/26/12*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Soooooooooo, what's it gonna take for you to honor your word.... "Gentlemen????"*


So, EI, was I talking to you? Nope. But I have been talking to Pidge, and will continue to do so. News flash...you don't own TAM, and as long as I don't respond to you or you to me , it's all good. Have a nice day!! BTW, I've changed my mind (I'm allowed to do that) I don't think you should be able to run posters off this thread at a whim, just because you don't like them.


----------



## Regret214

Good morning, all! Letting Dig sleep in today. He finally had a night of undisturbed sleep!

I hope you have a GREAT day!


----------



## margrace

hi everyone:

checked in this morning to see how you all are, and happy to see that you are hanging in there!

i am sort of in suspended animation as i wait for our first MC session together on monday. WH went to see the therapist alone yesterday (i had had a brief phone consult with him as the referring spouse). WH has great difficulty speaking to me about things, so i felt good about the opportunity for him to maybe get some part of his side of things into the room.

WH has been decidedly resistant to therapy in general. when i saw him after his session last night, his account of it was basically that it didn't s*ck but he wasn't making any commitments in terms of number of sessions, etc. soooo.... it could have been worse  

he was a bit remote and distant in speaking about it. he said he was tired and i could see that -- but i also believe that he got plunged into some of his anger toward me as a result of his conversation with the therapist, and that's what i was seeing. i know this is part of the process.

glad we are taking this step. also not unrealistically hopeful.


----------



## jh52

Regret214 said:


> Good morning, all! Letting Dig sleep in today. He finally had a night of undisturbed sleep!
> 
> I hope you have a GREAT day!


Hey Regret -- you, Dig and family enjoy the day/weekend as well. 

Say hey to Dig !!


----------



## jh52

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> checked in this morning to see how you all are, and happy to see that you are hanging in there!
> 
> i am sort of in suspended animation as i wait for our first MC session together on monday. WH went to see the therapist alone yesterday (i had had a brief phone consult with him as the referring spouse). WH has great difficulty speaking to me about things, so i felt good about the opportunity for him to maybe get some part of his side of things into the room.
> 
> WH has been decidedly resistant to therapy in general. when i saw him after his session last night, his account of it was basically that it didn't s*ck but he wasn't making any commitments in terms of number of sessions, etc. soooo.... it could have been worse
> 
> he was a bit remote and distant in speaking about it. he said he was tired and i could see that -- but i also believe that he got plunged into some of his anger toward me as a result of his conversation with the therapist, and that's what i was seeing. i know this is part of the process.
> 
> glad we are taking this step. also not unrealistically hopeful.


Hey MG -- take it an hour at at time, a day at a time.

Have a nice weekend !!


----------



## EI

Regret214 said:


> Good morning, all! Letting Dig sleep in today. He finally had a night of undisturbed sleep!
> 
> I hope you have a GREAT day!


Good morning Regret, and everyone else! I should be sleeping in, myself, but our little "Shorkie" went ballistic this morning scratching on my side of the bed to wake me up. Finally, I got up to let him out and he promptly ran under the coffee table and just stared at me with a big ol' "What'd I do?" look on his face. The interesting part is that B1 was in the kitchen making coffee, right by the back door when the dog decided it was time for "me" to get up to "let him out!" I think the whole thing was a conspiracy! 

Grrrrr...........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> Good mornIng Regret, and everyone else! I should be sleeping in, myself, but our little "Shorkie" went ballistic this morning scratching on my side of the bed to wake me up. Finally, I got up to let him out and he promptly ran under the coffee table and just stared at me with a big ol' "What'd I do?" look on his face. The interesting part is that B1 was in the kitchen making coffee, right by the back door when the dog decided it was time for "me" to get up to "let him out!" I think the whole thing was a conspiracy!
> 
> Grrrrr...........
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nice plan B1 !! 

:rofl:


----------



## margrace

jh52 said:


> Hey MG -- take it an hour at at time, a day at a time.
> 
> Have a nice weekend !!


great advice, jh -- and why is it so hard to do? definitely going to try that today, thanks


----------



## B1

Regret214 said:


> Good morning, all! Letting Dig sleep in today. He finally had a night of undisturbed sleep!
> 
> I hope you have a GREAT day!


Glad Dig is getting to sleep in.

Curious, do you all still talk about the A daily? it's it still a hot topic around our house? This goes for everyone else in R also.

At 5 months out, it's still a very hot topic here. Not that it's a bad topic, or it gets heated, sometimes it does, but mostly it's still just being covered. Yesterday, we talked for hours, not unusual, and made some more headway. It's so nice when things are talked out and you get some resolve. It can be mentally draining though, even exhausting. Guess that's why they call it work.

I am done with asking about the details I can honestly say that. I don't seem to have this need to dig anymore. I guess I am coming to acceptance.

I would say if anything bothers me now it's just thoughts about the A, just knowing it happened and flashes of images of them together, not really mind movies playing out as much anymore, I seem to have control of the projector now


----------



## jh52

margrace said:


> great advice, jh -- and why is it so hard to do? definitely going to try that today, thanks


It's hard to do MG because we always want things "now". IMO, we have grown into a society of doing everything fast, now -- then move on to the next thing in our life -- and do that fast, now and so on.......

I look at drive throughs at the fast food restuarants, pharmacies, banks, etc. Everything is let's get it done now and fast.

We have forgotten to slow down and look at and appreciate everything around us. (spouse, family, friends, nature, etc)

Anything that is worth while takes time -- alot of time -- like relationships and marriage. A marriage is suppose to be for a life time -- that is what people want when they get married -- but then life kicks in and we get all wrapped up in the me, now, fast sydrome.

At least this is how I see it. I am as gulity as anyone about how the me, fast, now life can become your daily life.

But then something tragic or dramatic happens in your life -- and you realize just what is important -- or what should have been important.

If we are lucky -- we get a 2nd chance -- however there are some that will never get that 2nd chance.

You will get there -- just slow down and and enjoy the blessings you have in your life -- and don't focus on what you don't have or think you should have or want.

Take care !!


----------



## SomedayDig

jh52 said:


> Hey Regret -- you, Dig and family enjoy the day/weekend as well.
> 
> Say hey to Dig !!


Hey Jh!!




betrayed1 said:


> Glad Dig is getting to sleep in.
> 
> Curious, do you all still talk about the A daily? it's it still a hot topic around our house? This goes for everyone else in R also.
> 
> At 5 months out, it's still a very hot topic here. Not that it's a bad topic, or it gets heated, sometimes it does, but mostly it's still just being covered. Yesterday, we talked for hours, not unusual, and made some more headway. It's so nice when things are talked out and you get some resolve. It can be mentally draining though, even exhausting. Guess that's why they call it work.
> 
> I am done with asking about the details I can honestly say that. I don't seem to have this need to dig anymore. I guess I am coming to acceptance.
> 
> I would say if anything bothers me now it's just thoughts about the A, just knowing it happened and flashes of images of them together, not really mind movies playing out as much anymore, I seem to have control of the projector now


Not that neither of us don't think about it daily, however we don't really talk about the affair on a daily basis the way we used to. I think that's in part of me having all the answers to my questions, although I still occasionally ask if I know everything.

I'm also in that spot like you B1...not so much mind movies, just the flashes of them - especially when I have to drive past any of the 3 hotels. Heck, sometimes I have to drive by all 3 in a day.

As for this morning...well, it was absolutely awesome to get a real good night's sleep. I admit to taking a Unisom before bed, though. But I did sleep for 10 hours straight!! That's probably more than I got total in the previous few nights. Thanks, Babe!! I love you very much.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> checked in this morning to see how you all are, and happy to see that you are hanging in there!
> 
> i am sort of in suspended animation as i wait for our first MC session together on monday. WH went to see the therapist alone yesterday (i had had a brief phone consult with him as the referring spouse). WH has great difficulty speaking to me about things, so i felt good about the opportunity for him to maybe get some part of his side of things into the room.
> 
> WH has been decidedly resistant to therapy in general. when i saw him after his session last night, his account of it was basically that it didn't s*ck but he wasn't making any commitments in terms of number of sessions, etc. soooo.... it could have been worse
> 
> he was a bit remote and distant in speaking about it. he said he was tired and i could see that -- but i also believe that he got plunged into some of his anger toward me as a result of his conversation with the therapist, and that's what i was seeing. i know this is part of the process.
> 
> glad we are taking this step. also not unrealistically hopeful.


I think his anger is a good thing, it means your getting somewhere. He's working through some emotions, even if they are bad ones. I think completely silent and indifferent would be much worse. He has to work through his unresolved anger from the pre-A days. This HAS to be done. It's part of R.

That's one of the topics EI and I are working through, she has un-resolved bitterness towards me, she had suppressed it, and now she's dealing with it, but she doesn't want to. 

She SO doesn't want to feel this bitterness because we are doing so well, but as I told her yesterday, hate me for the weekend EI, go ahead let it out. Bitterness can eat you alive if you don't deal with it. OUR marriage depends on us both dealing with these types of emotions. NOT just me dealing with the A and my pain. EI has pain to deal with too and it HAS to be addressed, talked about, and let out. But, I don't think IC is enough, it takes EI and me working on this daily also.

This is something we work on that know one knows about, well, you do now  , but in general, this has been something we talk about and work on without really posting about it.

I wish you and your hubby the best margrace.


----------



## ChangingMe

Hello all!

Margrace, it does sound like there is some positive movement, even if it's going slowly. At least he is willing to go -counseling can be a tough thing for a man to do (well, anyone really -it's hard to open up to a total stranger and discuss things you're ashamed of). I hope the MC is a positive for both of you. 

As for you guys on antidepressants, could you maybe PM my husband and let him know that it's ok to take them?!?  DD went on Zoloft for 3 weeks, and it was the best 3 weeks we've had post-DDay. He recommitted to staying with me, started wearing his wedding ring again, wanted to spend time with me, had a brighter mood, etc. 3 weeks isn't even really long enough for the meds to fully kick in, but it coincided perfectly with when he took them. 

Sadly though, he too hates taking pills, and he had sexual side effects that were frustrating to him as well, so he stopped taking the Zoloft, and he went right back into the dark place. That was mid-September, and we have not been totally out of it for more than a day or two since then. And I find it a bit ironic because the sexual side effect issue is cleared up, but now he barely wants to have sex with me, so we have a whole other issue! 

There has been slight progress though: I don't remember if I posted this on here, but DD has asked me to go his counseling session on Tuesday, which will be our 1st couple's session. He has not wanted to MC throughout this whole ordeal. I met with his counselor yesterday for an individual session, just to give him some insight into where I am in the marriage (fully committed, remorseful for my actions, wanting to help DD and our relationship). It was a good session, and I am looking forward to Tuesday. 

I also found this book in the new section at the library, and I'm reading it for some insight to help DD regain trust in me: I Love You But I Don't Trust You: The Complete Guide to Restoring Trust in Your Relationship: Mira Kirshenbaum: 9780425245316: Amazon.com: Books I wish I could get DD to read it, but he hates to read. 

That's where we are. Have a lazy day ahead, which should be nice. Tomorrow we are hopefully having some friends over to hang out. 

Hope you all have a great weekend!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

jh52 said:


> It's hard to do MG because we always want things "now". IMO, we have grown into a society of doing everything fast, now -- then move on to the next thing in our life -- and do that fast, now and so on.......
> 
> I look at drive throughs at the fast food restuarants, pharmacies, banks, etc. Everything is let's get it done now and fast.
> 
> It's the fast-food mentality. And look what we get; look at the quality of fast food. Look at how we get p1ssed off if the Internet is slow.
> 
> We have forgotten to slow down and look at and appreciate everything around us. (spouse, family, friends, nature, etc)
> 
> Anything that is worth while takes time -- alot of time -- like relationships and marriage. A marriage is suppose to be for a life time -- that is what people want when they get married -- but then life kicks in and we get all wrapped up in the me, now, fast sydrome.
> 
> At least this is how I see it. I am as gulity as anyone about how the me, fast, now life can become your daily life.
> 
> But then something tragic or dramatic happens in your life -- and you realize just what is important -- or what should have been important.
> 
> Then the instant gratification thing doesn't work anymore. You have to slow down and process, work with others on their timeline as well as yours, and wait for results.
> 
> If we are lucky -- we get a 2nd chance -- however there are some that will never get that 2nd chance.
> 
> You will get there -- just slow down and and enjoy the blessings you have in your life -- and don't focus on what you don't have or think you should have or want.
> 
> Take care !!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> I think his anger is a good thing, it means your getting somewhere. He's working through some emotions, even if they are bad ones. I think completely silent and indifferent would be much worse. He has to work through his unresolved anger from the pre-A days. This HAS to be done. It's part of R.
> 
> That's one of the topics EI and I are working through, she has un-resolved bitterness towards me, she had suppressed it, and now she's dealing with it, but she doesn't want to.
> 
> My W has an unresolved bitterness toward me, too, and this is something that we acknowledge, but don't know what to do about yet. It will take time. It's going to be like peeling back the layers of an onion, I think.
> 
> She SO doesn't want to feel this bitterness because we are doing so well, but as I told her yesterday, hate me for the weekend EI, go ahead let it out. Bitterness can eat you alive if you don't deal with it. OUR marriage depends on us both dealing with these types of emotions. NOT just me dealing with the A and my pain. EI has pain to deal with too and it HAS to be addressed, talked about, and let out. But, I don't think IC is enough, it takes EI and me working on this daily also.
> 
> We talk about it (her bitterness), but when we get there, it's still the issue that was the deal-breaker for our marriage, so we walk up to it and then wind up setting it aside for "later". I think that MC will need to be where we work this piece out, as hard as that may be. Talking about our sex life in front of someone will be hard, and getting it back will be challenging on some levels.
> 
> This is something we work on that know one knows about, well, you do now  , but in general, this has been something we talk about and work on without really posting about it.
> 
> I wish you and your hubby the best margrace.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey happy Saturday everyone  suk me Saturday..trick or treat is coming up..I better go buy some candy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> 2 meds that are on the low end of sexual side effects are Wellbutrin and remeron. I am on remeron. I did effexor for a while and liked it but I think it did effect my libido but then again it could have just been my low-t.
> 
> anyway remeron is working OK for me I had to add abilify about a year ago to help. abilify was a miracle fix for me. It keeps me out of a dark dark hole. hopefully I can come off this stuff within a year. My counselor says it's to early right now. I want off this stuff though. not that it's all that bad, it has helped me immensely. I just take so much medicine already...Ugh....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Due to my bipolar condition, I take a med called Latuda. it's an anti-psychotic, typically used to treat schizophremia, but my doc thinks it works well for bipolar, too. These kinds of drugs definitely take their toll on the libido, and if I'm going to solve the underlying problem of my marriage, something is going to have to give. 

If I go off this med, I may suffer more bipolar symptoms, and this will not be good. But I did go off this for a while back when the issue emerged back in June, with nothing too bad happening (and my libido returning), and anticipate going off it soon to try and get things right with our sex life. 

I also take Welbutrin for the depression end of things, and have been told that it has very little in the way of sexual side-effects.

I hope it's okay to be open about this stuff here. Seems kind of personal, but perhaps it will help someone.


----------



## margrace

dear ones:

you are always helpful and supportive but sometimes you are almost mystical in saying the exact wise words that i need to hear. this morning was one of those times!

jh, B1, changing, yes to your insights... they landed in such a deep place inside me! one day at a time and accept that life's changes often happen slowly. i ALWAYS want to push the river instead of letting the river flow! d*mn.

and working through legitimate anger as part of R... yes, that's where the path goes, right? straight through that place. neither WH or i came from families where we learned that people can express anger in a way that actually increases intimacy -- we are both afraid of it. this is a chance to try to undo some of that unhealthy crap that we are both continuing to enact. 

and i know that as much as it will hurt, i can handle it. i feel it right now, that i'm strong enough for all that. i hope that WH can take the risk of telling me -- i know it will be really scary for him. i'm sure that it will feel to him like it will kill me (or him or both of us).

it strikes me that we need to share that experience of encountering it honestly and feeling the pain and then seeing that we didn't die and neither did our love.

btw, changing, i just read that book -- i have it on my phone right now. i thought it was really helpful. i'll be interested to hear what you think.

xoxo mg


----------



## CantSitStill

This reconcilling is hard but worth it. I have to work on myself when it comes to avoiding conflict then holding in my anger..Calvin and I are both handling our discussions so much better. I just wish it didn't get to the point of me going crazy and having an EA.. now we have to deal with that on top of our other problems. Hoping our new counselor helps. I was the one that was always afraid of MC..watched too much crazy stuff on tv and thought it would be like on tv lol. Anyway thank God for this seconf chance to get things right 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh Empty was thinking about you last night and all you put up with from your doggy. My dog is so fat and I felt sorry for her because she can't reach her butt to itch soo yes I helped her...used her doggy brush and helped the poor thing out lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bobka said:


> Due to my bipolar condition, I take a med called Latuda. it's an anti-psychotic, typically used to treat schizophremia, but my doc thinks it works well for bipolar, too. These kinds of drugs definitely take their toll on the libido, and if I'm going to solve the underlying problem of my marriage, something is going to have to give.
> 
> If I go off this med, I may suffer more bipolar symptoms, and this will not be good. But I did go off this for a while back when the issue emerged back in June, with nothing too bad happening (and my libido returning), and anticipate going off it soon to try and get things right with our sex life.
> 
> I also take Welbutrin for the depression end of things, and have been told that it has very little in the way of sexual side-effects.
> 
> *I hope it's okay to be open about this stuff here. Seems kind of personal, but perhaps it will help someone.*


bobka,

Unless the mods have a problem with what gets discussed here.... it's anything goes. We talk meds, sex, food, affair details, we laugh, we discuss anxiety, insecurities, fears, anger, triggers, guilt, remorse, accountability and breakthroughs; we try to pick each other up when we're down, and we're here to celebrate our victories with each other, as well. I, honestly, don't believe that B1 and I would be where we are in our reconciliation without this forum and, particularly the support that we get from others here on this thread. I think we all make a contribution here, and I believe that we all get something back, as well.

And, finally, we always welcome new individuals to share their stories. This thread was created by B1 with the simple intention of learning how others defined _reconciliation_ for themselves. Because, I think he realized that he and I were taking the _less traveled road to reconciliation_ vs. the _TAM approved road_. It has evolved into a huge "Reconciliation Support Group." This is not to suggest that "our" path to reconciliation is "the path" or "the only path," but _a path.... our path_ and I think we agree that for us it is nice to have a safe place, to find your own path, in your own way, in your own time, while still benefiting from the support, wisdom and guidance of others who have been or currently are on their own journeys of reconciliation. And, whether you are a BS or a WS you will be treated with dignity, mutual respect and courtesy by those who post here regularly. You know, come to think of it.... no wonder there are so many positive, encouraging and hopeful reconciliations going on here!  We're just an awesome group of people! I love you guys..... <3 

Take care,
~EI


P.S. If you are new to TAM it would be wise to create your own thread so you will get the attention of ALL of the *TAM*_ers_ during the early stages of _"Coping With Infidelity."_ This thread is more of a supplement at that point. But, a lot of wonderful people have chosen to continue their ongoing reconciliation stories here. They have been such a blessing to us as we are going through ours.

P.S.S You don't have to be in reconciliation to post here. Single, divorced, and happily married or committed people are encouraged to contribute, as well. jh is one of the best!!!


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> dear ones:
> 
> *working through legitimate anger as part of R*... yes, that's where the path goes, right? straight through that place. neither WH or i came from families where we learned that *people can express anger in a way that actually increases intimacy --* we are both afraid of it. this is a chance to try to undo some of that unhealthy crap that we are both continuing to enact.
> 
> and i know that *as much as it will hurt, i can handle it.* i feel it right now, that i'm strong enough for all that. i hope that WH can take the risk of telling me -- *i know it will be really scary for him. i'm sure that it will feel to him like it will kill me (or him or both of us).*
> 
> *it strikes me that we need to share that experience of encountering it honestly and feeling the pain and then seeing that we didn't die and neither did our love.*
> 
> xoxo mg


margrace,

Working through the anger is soooo important for, both, the BS and the WS. After something as devastating as infidelity strikes a marriage, if there is going to be any one emotion that is as big or bigger than the pain... it is the anger.

I had a tremendous amount of bitterness towards B1 for a long time pre-A. At some point, around January last year, I remember that I quit asking, quit begging, quit pleading, quit demanding and quit threatening B1 with my insistence that he work with me on improving our marriage. I quit talking to him, altogether, unless it had to do with our bills or our children. I wasn't bitter anymore, I wasn't angry, I eased up on him.... he was relieved. He thought I had accepted things as they were.... and, I had. I had accepted that he was never going to change... I realized that I couldn't force him to be someone that he wasn't. I felt some relief, too.... I had accepted that B1 was not in love with me anymore, and I realized that I was no longer in love with him, either. We quit arguing..... well, except about the kids and the bills.... but, there was no more arguing about "us." Then, I told him that I would be moving on in a couple of years when our youngest graduated from high school and our bills were paid off. He listened to that with as much interest as he had listened to everything else I had been saying for a few years. I think when I used to "try to talk to him" that this is what he was hearing: Charlie Brown Teacher Speaking - YouTube LOL 

I, also, told him that I wasn't going to wait one day longer to have passion in my life. In less than a month... I had found it.

On D-Day, 15 months later, there was anger.......... fist slamming into the desk anger.......... this time the anger all belonged to B1. Now, I am not going to reiterate our whole......_ looooong story_ except to say that for the first several weeks after D-Day, B1 was angry, I was defiant and defensive, and there was a lot of finger-pointing and ugly accusations thrown both ways. And, 5 months later, we still have moments like that.... but they are farther and fewer between and much less intense.

Although TAM has played a very useful role in our reconciliation, the one thing that could have seriously derailed our marriage and our reconciliation attempt was the insistence by the TAM hardliners that, as the WS, my pain, my bitterness and my anger was secondary and should take a back-seat to whatever it was that B1, my BS, was feeling and needing at the time. I didn't understand how that could possibly make any sense. We were two hurting people, we were supposed to be two equal people.... we both needed to feel counted and validated. After all, my vulnerability, that led to me lowering my own boundaries to the point of having an affair, was in large part to not feeling counted and validated. The more I tried to deny my pain, bitterness and anger.... the more it seethed beneath the surface. But, I was trying to be the good wife and B1 was doing everything right.... and it felt good, yet he and I have continued to struggle with a particular issue that is very deep and very complex.

I have been basking in B1's new found love and desire for me these last few months. It has truly been blissful in so many ways. But, there is also his pain, his anger, his shock, and devastation. When he is happy and loving, all is well in my world and I have been genuinely doing everything I can to help heal his heart and assure him that I have fallen madly, deeply and passionately in love with him... all over again, and I have... and it is bigger, stronger, more honest and healthier than it has ever been. But, when his pain and his anger surfaces, not just the average run of the mill anger (I handle that with genuine love and compassion,)... the really bad episodes, I find that I have two responses.... I feel the defiant and defensive "fighter in me" emerging, or if I'm feeling exhausted and defeated, I will simply shut down..... not feel anything. That's what B1 used to do. He could turn it off.... he learned to turn it off for years. I started to panic about it. I don't want to "not feel" as a coping tool to avoid pain. I talked to my IC and then to B1. I've been very happy with our new marriage and our new love.... but when he gets angry.... I get angry.... because I was made to feel that my pain, bitterness and anger were not as "valid" as his. The thing is, B1 is not the one who insisted that I keep my feelings bottled up. In the last couple of weeks we have confronted "our" anger, together, without rage, without defiance, without accusations, without judgements, but with respect, compassion and love. I don't think that we have ever been closer. By acknowledging the anger, the pain and bitterness..... we diffused it and took away it's power over us. B1 allowed me to express my anger for areas in our marriage in which I felt that he had let me down. He let me express my anger that he refused to work on our marriage with me prior to my affair. That was wrong... he let me down and I was hurt and angry, and rightfully so. And, I was finally able to tell him what he needed to hear from me, "I had an *affair*, the affair, the *lies*, the *deception*.... that was my choice, *my fault*," It was wrong. I let him down and he was hurt and angry, and rightfully so. Finally, he was able to say "*I forgive you*." That was right.... for both of us.

margrace, open the communication, talk openly and honestly and give him permission to do the same, and then listen, be willing to forgive and be forgiven, validate his value as a person, even the imperfect person that he is.... trust me... he already knows that, tell him what you MUST have to move forward and ask him what he needs from you. You acknowledged in your earliest comments on this thread that you had made your share of mistakes in the marriage.... own them.... make your marriage a "joint project." If your husband has an equal desire to reconcile and is not just willing but eager to give you what you need, then it's possible. 

Take care,
~EI


----------



## daisygirl 41

Morning everyone. Hope you are all doing well.
I've been lurking and reading.
The anger topic got me thinking. I've been concerned that anger is one of the stages that I haven't been through yet and and worried that its just going to all come out at once one day. Am I suppressing my anger, not letting myself feel it? I don't know. But then I realised there have been moments of anger. My H and I went through a false R last year after Dday. We tried for 4 months but then the EA started back up (co worker). During that initial false R I had the odd angry outburst but everytime I did H became even more withdrawn and introverted. Maybe I've subconsciously repressed any anger because of this! Does that make any sense? 
Another thing I have also realised is that even though our true R has it been happening since April, the false R was also part of the process. I had a H who was deep in an EA and I saw with my own eyes the internal struggles he was going through. It really did crush him. When I asked him to move out last Dec I was devastated. But it was truly the best thing to do. H had to be away from me to realise what he was going to lose. I needed the space and he definitely needed it. I always said he was also in the midst of a MLC and during one of our talks recently he finally acknowledged that he suffered some kind of breakdown. It was a real step forward for us. 

Sorry this post is all over the place but I guess I'm just trying to say
Yes! Communication is the key to all of this!
I wish I'd learnt this a long time ago. We stopped communicating! When did that happen? Or did we EVER really communicate properly?
We have been given another chance, a new marriage, we are both on board with what needs to be done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

Empty Inside said:


> margrace,
> 
> I am not going to reiterate our whole......_ looooong story_ except to say that for the first several weeks after D-Day, B1 was angry, I was defiant and defensive, and there was a lot of finger-pointing and ugly accusations thrown both ways. And, 5 months later, we still have moments like that.... but they are farther and fewer between and much less intense.
> 
> .... *The more I tried to deny my pain, bitterness and anger.... the more it seethed beneath the surface*. But, I was trying to be the good wife and B1 was doing everything right.... and it felt good, yet he and I have continued to struggle with a particular issue that is very deep and very complex.
> 
> ... But, when his pain and his anger surfaces, not just the average run of the mill anger (I handle that with genuine love and compassion,)... the really bad episodes, I find that I have two responses.... I feel the defiant and defensive "fighter in me" emerging, or if I'm feeling exhausted and defeated, I will simply shut down..... not feel anything. That's what B1 used to do. He could turn it off.... he learned to turn it off for years. I started to panic about it. *I don't want to "not feel" as a coping tool to avoid pain.* I talked to my IC and then to B1. I've been very happy with our new marriage and our new love.... but when he gets angry.... I get angry.... because I was made to feel that my pain, bitterness and anger were not as "valid" as his. The thing is, B1 is not the one who insisted that I keep my feelings bottled up. *In the last couple of weeks we have confronted "our" anger, together, without rage, without defiance, without accusations, without judgements, but with respect, compassion and love. I don't think that we have ever been closer. By acknowledging the anger, the pain and bitterness..... we diffused it and took away it's power over us. * B1 allowed me to express my anger for areas in our marriage in which I felt that he had let me down. He let me express my anger that he refused to work on our marriage with me prior to my affair. That was wrong... he let me down and I was hurt and angry, and rightfully so. And, I was finally able to tell him what he needed to hear from me, "I had an *affair*, the affair, the *lies*, the *deception*.... that was my choice, *my fault*," It was wrong. I let him down and he was hurt and angry, and rightfully so. Finally, he was able to say "*I forgive you*." That was right.... for both of us.
> 
> margrace, open the communication, talk openly and honestly and give him permission to do the same, and then listen, be willing to forgive and be forgiven, validate his value as a person, even the imperfect person that he is.... trust me... he already knows that, tell him what you MUST have to move forward and ask him what he needs from you. You acknowledged in your earliest comments on this thread that you had made your share of mistakes in the marriage.... own them.... make your marriage a "joint project." If your husband has an equal desire to reconcile and is not just willing but *eager to give you what you need*, then it's possible.
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


EI, i woke up this morning thinking that i would write and ask you if you would mind sharing more about your anger. my WH, as i've mentioned, has tremendous difficulty speaking about any feelings at all, much less feelings that are as loaded and difficult as this.... yet i understand that it all needs to come out if we are going to move forward.

i had planned to ask you to perhaps email or PM me, because i know that, in commenting on your own feelings, you are inviting elaborations of one point of view: that cheating is always wrong (which, of course, it is); therefore other aspects of the marriage have little relevance. furthermore, according to this view, if you engage in an examination of their relevance, you are conveying a lack of conviction around the belief that cheating is dishonest and wrong (which, again, it is).

you know that i hold a different view, whether or not my own R takes hold: that cheating is dishonest and wrong and, *at the very same time*, marriages where cheating takes place are different, and BSs and WSs are different, and pre-A marriage problems must be considered if R is to be attempted. for me, none of these considerations negates the wrongness of cheating. i just think that it's one of those things in life that is better described by a both/and proposition than by an either/or dichotomy.

so seeing your response this morning was so welcome and helpful. it's an aspect of R that i need to know more about -- but is it especially painful for you and B1 to explore? i'm grateful to learn from others but i also recognize that others are not here to be my personal teachers  we are all here to give help but also to help ourselves.

along these lines, if there is any way that i can share something helpful about my struggles with this, i hope everyone knows that i am 100% here to do that.

i guess what i'm doing is asking whether you or others are comfortable exploring this aspect of anger, either as part of this thread or outside it.


----------



## happyman64

Empty Inside said:


> margrace,
> 
> Working through the anger is soooo important for, both, the BS and the WS. After something as devastating as infidelity strikes a marriage, if there is going to be any one emotion that is as big or bigger than the pain... it is the anger.
> 
> I had a tremendous amount of bitterness towards B1 for a long time pre-A. At some point, around January last year, I remember that I quit asking, quit begging, quit pleading, quit demanding and quit threatening B1 with my insistence that he work with me on improving our marriage. I quit talking to him, altogether, unless it had to do with our bills or our children. I wasn't bitter anymore, I wasn't angry, I eased up on him.... he was relieved. He thought I had accepted things as they were.... and, I had. I had accepted that he was never going to change... I realized that I couldn't force him to be someone that he wasn't. I felt some relief, too.... I had accepted that B1 was not in love with me anymore, and I realized that I was no longer in love with him, either. We quit arguing..... well, except about the kids and the bills.... but, there was no more arguing about "us." Then, I told him that I would be moving on in a couple of years when our youngest graduated from high school and our bills were paid off. He listened to that with as much interest as he had listened to everything else I had been saying for a few years. I think when I used to "try to talk to him" that this is what he was hearing: Charlie Brown Teacher Speaking - YouTube LOL
> 
> I, also, told him that I wasn't going to wait one day longer to have passion in my life. In less than a month... I had found it.
> 
> On D-Day, 15 months later, there was anger.......... fist slamming into the desk anger.......... this time the anger all belonged to B1. Now, I am not going to reiterate our whole......_ looooong story_ except to say that for the first several weeks after D-Day, B1 was angry, I was defiant and defensive, and there was a lot of finger-pointing and ugly accusations thrown both ways. And, 5 months later, we still have moments like that.... but they are farther and fewer between and much less intense.
> 
> Although TAM has played a very useful role in our reconciliation, the one thing that could have seriously derailed our marriage and our reconciliation attempt was the insistence by the TAM hardliners that, as the WS, my pain, my bitterness and my anger was secondary and should take a back-seat to whatever it was that B1, my BS, was feeling and needing at the time. I didn't understand how that could possibly make any sense. We were two hurting people, we were supposed to be two equal people.... we both needed to feel counted and validated. After all, my vulnerability, that led to me lowering my own boundaries to the point of having an affair, was in large part to not feeling counted and validated. The more I tried to deny my pain, bitterness and anger.... the more it seethed beneath the surface. But, I was trying to be the good wife and B1 was doing everything right.... and it felt good, yet he and I have continued to struggle with a particular issue that is very deep and very complex.
> 
> I have been basking in B1's new found love and desire for me these last few months. It has truly been blissful in so many ways. But, there is also his pain, his anger, his shock, and devastation. When he is happy and loving, all is well in my world and I have been genuinely doing everything I can to help heal his heart and assure him that I have fallen madly, deeply and passionately in love with him... all over again, and I have... and it is bigger, stronger, more honest and healthier than it has ever been. But, when his pain and his anger surfaces, not just the average run of the mill anger (I handle that with genuine love and compassion,)... the really bad episodes, I find that I have two responses.... I feel the defiant and defensive "fighter in me" emerging, or if I'm feeling exhausted and defeated, I will simply shut down..... not feel anything. That's what B1 used to do. He could turn it off.... he learned to turn it off for years. I started to panic about it. I don't want to "not feel" as a coping tool to avoid pain. I talked to my IC and then to B1. I've been very happy with our new marriage and our new love.... but when he gets angry.... I get angry.... because I was made to feel that my pain, bitterness and anger were not as "valid" as his. The thing is, B1 is not the one who insisted that I keep my feelings bottled up. In the last couple of weeks we have confronted "our" anger, together, without rage, without defiance, without accusations, without judgements, but with respect, compassion and love. I don't think that we have ever been closer. By acknowledging the anger, the pain and bitterness..... we diffused it and took away it's power over us. B1 allowed me to express my anger for areas in our marriage in which I felt that he had let me down. He let me express my anger that he refused to work on our marriage with me prior to my affair. That was wrong... he let me down and I was hurt and angry, and rightfully so. And, I was finally able to tell him what he needed to hear from me, "I had an *affair*, the affair, the *lies*, the *deception*.... that was my choice, *my fault*," It was wrong. I let him down and he was hurt and angry, and rightfully so. Finally, he was able to say "*I forgive you*." That was right.... for both of us.
> 
> margrace, open the communication, talk openly and honestly and give him permission to do the same, and then listen, be willing to forgive and be forgiven, validate his value as a person, even the imperfect person that he is.... trust me... he already knows that, tell him what you MUST have to move forward and ask him what he needs from you. You acknowledged in your earliest comments on this thread that you had made your share of mistakes in the marriage.... own them.... make your marriage a "joint project." If your husband has an equal desire to reconcile and is not just willing but eager to give you what you need, then it's possible.
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


Very powerful post EI.

The power to "forgive" as well as the power to be "forgiven"!

This is where so many BS's and WS's that try to Reconcile fail.

Thank you

HM64


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Morning everyone. Hope you are all doing well.
> I've been lurking and reading.
> The anger topic got me thinking. I've been concerned that anger is one of the stages that I haven't been through yet and and worried that its just going to all come out at once one day. Am I suppressing my anger, not letting myself feel it? I don't know. But then I realised there have been moments of anger. My H and I went through a false R last year after Dday. We tried for 4 months but then the EA started back up (co worker). During that initial false R I had the odd angry outburst but everytime I did H became even more withdrawn and introverted. Maybe I've subconsciously repressed any anger because of this! Does that make any sense?
> Another thing I have also realised is that even though our true R has it been happening since April, the false R was also part of the process. I had a H who was deep in an EA and I saw with my own eyes the internal struggles he was going through. It really did crush him. When I asked him to move out last Dec I was devastated. But it was truly the best thing to do. H had to be away from me to realise what he was going to lose. I needed the space and he definitely needed it. I always said he was also in the midst of a MLC and during one of our talks recently he finally acknowledged that he suffered some kind of breakdown. It was a real step forward for us.
> 
> Sorry this post is all over the place but I guess I'm just trying to say
> Yes! Communication is the key to all of this!
> I wish I'd learnt this a long time ago. We stopped communicating! When did that happen? Or did we EVER really communicate properly?
> We have been given another chance, a new marriage, we are both on board with what needs to be done
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hi daisy:

yes, we had a false R, too. my first dday was in march 2012. i barely remember the 3 months after that -- i was pretty much crying and shaking all the time. but over the next couple of months, i started to feel better as WH expressed his wish to work toward R and seemed to be offering remorse and transparency as part of that. it was false R, however, because during that time WH was still actually seeing her. so although it felt better, it wasn't better -- it was phony, it was a house of cards.

now a bunch of other things have come out. we are beginning MC and we feel much less comfortable together than we did during that false R. as i indicated in my earlier post, experiencing and addressing anger is a big part of this. as a result, WH remarked to me the other day that we have regressed, that we've gone backward in our progress. he doesn't tolerate emotional discomfort well and he tends to equate feeling better with BEING better. actually, if our marriage is to have any future, our marriage is better now and will continue to get better as it becomes more open and honest.

so i am agreeing with your thoughts about communication. as you can guess, WH and i have never communicated well about our marriage -- in fact, we suffered alongside each other for years without any meaningful communication AT ALL. that's not just true of WH, it's true of me as well. it really floors me to think about it now. how did i let that happen?! our pre-A marriage was crippled by it, and our R depends on addressing those problems.


----------



## B1

happyman64 said:


> Very powerful post EI.
> 
> The power to "forgive" as well as the power to be "forgiven"!
> 
> This is where so many BS's and WS's that try to Reconcile fail.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> HM64


Thanks happyman, 
Her post was more powerful to me than anyone can imagine. 
We have really been having some very heated discussions, I called it, opening a can of worms. Afterwards, I wished I had not opened it. But now I am glad I did. We faced a LOT of anger issues, EI really faced hers over the past 2 weeks. They did not keep us angry at each other, we were able to shelve it and come back to it later, but it's something we dealt with daily.

EI had a LOT of bitterness buried deep down over my treatment of her for all those years. I knew it was there and it needed to come out, and it did. She started everything off with, if we go there, then I am going to hate you. I told her, to go right ahead and hate me, I have it coming. So, we went at it, it would get heated, we would calm down. IT would spin back up then calm back down, this went on for a couple weeks. The last few days have been different, the hate was not as strong, it started becoming sadness and EI fell into a slump.

Yesterday was a huge breakthrough, we talked about the pre-a days and the hate was gone, there were tears, there was forgiveness and then came her confession, one that she has said before but not with such clarity and honesty. No anger or bitterness and no buts. It's sounds crazy I know, after 5 months to hear her say it was "my fault." The WS is supposed to say this on day 1, in most cases and for TAM it's a pre-requisite to R.
But, as you know, we do things a little differently in this house.

I knew she was sorry, I knew deep down, she knew it was her fault, I also knew that it opened up a TON of anger and bitterness for her to admit that and that's were the real problem was. She was still hurting and hurting bad over my emotional and physical neglect. She had to really deal with that before truly admitting fault. Why, well, because she had no good options, divorce was truly impossible for us and still would be, staying miserable one more day for her was impossible, and suicide, though she considered was not an option, and so, an affair was the easiest and quickest way to some happiness. Now, of course, we know it was a wrong choice, a bad choice, and it was her choice. But to her it was the only choice that gave her some happiness. So, out of all the bad choices she chose an affair, which, at the time, seemed like the right choice.

So, she had a lot of bitterness and anger over choosing that path and she blamed me for being put in that position because she hates what she did and what she had become. 
Now, she did not blame me for her choice, just for putting her in that vulnerable state. And you know what, I did put her in that vulnerable state. I did not love, honor or cherish her, I left her alone and isolated. I put her in a box with roughly 4 options, none of which were good. Divorce,suicide,misery, or some other way to find happiness. 


Now, I always held to the fact regardless of the situation the affair choice was wrong, EI agreed to that also. But "fault" was the problem. Admitting fault was like saying everything I DID to her was not real, not valid, like it didn't happen and she felt like it was also saying she was overall a "bad person." It means it was ALL her fault. I advised her it was not. Adultery was her fault, now what I did to her was my fault, the state she was in, my fault. Her prancing around in lingerie and me ignoring her, my fault, her saying we have to work on this marriage and me NOT listening, my fault, her trying to get me into counseling and me not going, my fault and on and on. 

Her affair though, her fault. But this does NOT mean she is a bad person, EI is a good person that made a bad choice! ALL WS are NOT inherently bad people, many are really good people who made a bad choice in life. And in many cases there were circumstances in the marriage that led them down that affair path. And ALL BS's are not ALL good and perfect people either, most are also good people who made some bad choices too, well, it's that way in my case anyway. 


So, here we are. Faults confessed and forgiveness given. We are still on a journey though, with lots of curves and bumps I am sure. But we are sure in a better place now and more prepared for this journey.


----------



## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> Morning everyone. Hope you are all doing well.
> I've been lurking and reading.
> The anger topic got me thinking. I've been concerned that anger is one of the stages that I haven't been through yet and and worried that its just going to all come out at once one day. Am I suppressing my anger, not letting myself feel it? I don't know. But then I realised there have been moments of anger. My H and I went through a false R last year after Dday. We tried for 4 months but then the EA started back up (co worker). During that initial false R I had the odd angry outburst but everytime I did H became even more withdrawn and introverted. Maybe I've subconsciously repressed any anger because of this! Does that make any sense?
> Another thing I have also realised is that even though our true R has it been happening since April, the false R was also part of the process. I had a H who was deep in an EA and I saw with my own eyes the internal struggles he was going through. It really did crush him. When I asked him to move out last Dec I was devastated. But it was truly the best thing to do. H had to be away from me to realise what he was going to lose. I needed the space and he definitely needed it. I always said he was also in the midst of a MLC and during one of our talks recently he finally acknowledged that he suffered some kind of breakdown. It was a real step forward for us.
> 
> Sorry this post is all over the place but I guess I'm just trying to say
> Yes! Communication is the key to all of this!
> I wish I'd learnt this a long time ago. We stopped communicating! When did that happen? Or did we EVER really communicate properly?
> We have been given another chance, a new marriage, we are both on board with what needs to be done
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


daisygirl ,

Sometimes we don't want to face the anger because it means we have to rock the boat and we don't want to rock the boat. It's uncomfortable to us and many do not want to go there, but you have to!

I will admit, I didn't want to rock that boat either, me and EI were doing great, but certain issues would come up and make her angry, and I avoided it for a while. Then I realized, that this issue would not go away, and I would become bitter and angry too, not good for either of us, or our R.

So I dove in head first and opened the can a worms (see my recent response above to happy man to know what that is) and it did get ugly sometimes, the D word was even brought up once. She would shut down or get defensive, but I kept at it, little by little we tackled it and we finally conquered it.

The key was communication....we talked and talked. We also knew when to shelf it and come back later. That's important also.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Thanks happyman,
> Her post was more powerful to me than anyone can imagine.
> We have really been having some very heated discussions, I called it, opening a can of worms. Afterwards, I wished I had not opened it. But now I am glad I did. We faced a LOT of anger issues, EI really faced hers over the past 2 weeks. They did not keep us angry at each other, we were able to shelve it and come back to it later, but it's something we dealt with daily.
> 
> EI had a LOT of bitterness buried deep down over my treatment of her for all those years. I knew it was there and it needed to come out, and it did. She started everything off with, if we go there, then I am going to hate you. I told her, to go right ahead and hate me, I have it coming. So, we went at it, it would get heated, we would calm down. IT would spin back up then calm back down, this went on for a couple weeks. The last few days have been different, the hate was not as strong, it started becoming sadness and EI fell into a slump.
> 
> Yesterday was a huge breakthrough, we talked about the pre-a days and the hate was gone, there were tears, there was forgiveness and then came her confession, one that she has said before but not with such clarity and honesty. No anger or bitterness and no buts. It's sounds crazy I know, after 5 months to hear her say it was "my fault." The WS is supposed to say this on day 1, in most cases and for TAM it's a pre-requisite to R.
> But, as you know, we do things a little differently in this house.
> 
> I knew she was sorry, I knew deep down, she knew it was her fault, I also knew that it opened up a TON of anger and bitterness for her to admit that and that's were the real problem was. She was still hurting and hurting bad over my emotional and physical neglect. She had to really deal with that before truly admitting fault. Why, well, because she had no good options, divorce was truly impossible for us and still would be, staying miserable one more day for her was impossible, and suicide, though she considered was not an option, and so, an affair was the easiest and quickest way to some happiness. Now, of course, we know it was a wrong choice, a bad choice, and it was her choice. But to her it was the only choice that gave her some happiness. So, out of all the bad choices she chose an affair, which, at the time, seemed like the right choice.
> 
> So, she had a lot of bitterness and anger over choosing that path and she blamed me for being put in that position because she hates what she did and what she had become.
> Now, she did not blame me for her choice, just for putting her in that vulnerable state. And you know what, I did put her in that vulnerable state. I did not love, honor or cherish her, I left her alone and isolated. I put her in a box with roughly 4 options, none of which were good. Divorce,suicide,misery, or some other way to find happiness.
> 
> 
> Now, I always held to the fact regardless of the situation the affair choice was wrong, EI agreed to that also. But "fault" was the problem. Admitting fault was like saying everything I DID to her was not real, not valid, like it didn't happen and she felt like it was also saying she was overall a "bad person." It means it was ALL her fault. I advised her it was not. Adultery was her fault, now what I did to her was my fault, the state she was in, my fault. Her prancing around in lingerie and me ignoring her, my fault, her saying we have to work on this marriage and me NOT listening, my fault, her trying to get me into counseling and me not going, my fault and on and on.
> 
> Her affair though, her fault. But this does NOT mean she is a bad person, EI is a good person that made a bad choice! ALL WS are NOT inherently bad people, many are really good people who made a bad choice in life. And in many cases there were circumstances in the marriage that led them down that affair path. And ALL BS's are not ALL good and perfect people either, most are also good people who made some bad choices too, well, it's that way in my case anyway.
> 
> 
> So, here we are. Faults confessed and forgiveness given. We are still on a journey though, with lots of curves and bumps I am sure. But we are sure in a better place now and more prepared for this journey.


Journey called life. R is a process -- a long and slow process that takes a lot of hard work from both sides. You and EI are making slow but steady progress thus once again communication is the key and taking things hour by hour and day by day.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> daisygirl ,
> 
> Sometimes we don't want to face the anger because it means we have to rock the boat and we don't want to rock the boat. It's uncomfortable to us and many do not want to go there, but you have to!
> 
> I will admit, I didn't want to rock that boat either, me and EI were doing great, but certain issues would come up and make her angry, and I avoided it for a while. Then I realized, that this issue would not go away, and I would become bitter and angry too, not good for either of us, or our R.
> 
> So I dove in head first and opened the can a worms (see my recent response above to happy man to know what that is) and it did get ugly sometimes, the D word was even brought up once. She would shut down or get defensive, but I kept at it, little by little we tackled it and we finally conquered it.
> 
> The key was communication....we talked and talked. We also knew when to shelf it and come back later. That's important also.


"The key was communication....we talked and talked. We also knew when to shelf it and come back later. That's important also."
:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## calvin

Hour by hour,day by day has become my mantra
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow sounds like you two got alot out, that's great, so glad you were both able to get that anger out and now can keep pressing forward..bet you both feel better now 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Thanks happyman,
> Her post was more powerful to me than anyone can imagine.
> We have really been having some very heated discussions, I called it, opening a can of worms. Afterwards, I wished I had not opened it. But now I am glad I did. We faced a LOT of anger issues, EI really faced hers over the past 2 weeks. They did not keep us angry at each other, we were able to shelve it and come back to it later, but it's something we dealt with daily.
> 
> EI had a LOT of bitterness buried deep down over my treatment of her for all those years. I knew it was there and it needed to come out, and it did. She started everything off with, if we go there, then I am going to hate you. I told her, to go right ahead and hate me, I have it coming. So, we went at it, it would get heated, we would calm down. IT would spin back up then calm back down, this went on for a couple weeks. The last few days have been different, the hate was not as strong, it started becoming sadness and EI fell into a slump.
> 
> Yesterday was a huge breakthrough, we talked about the pre-a days and the hate was gone, there were tears, there was forgiveness and then came her confession, one that she has said before but not with such clarity and honesty. No anger or bitterness and no buts. It's sounds crazy I know, after 5 months to hear her say it was "my fault." The WS is supposed to say this on day 1, in most cases and for TAM it's a pre-requisite to R.
> But, as you know, we do things a little differently in this house.
> 
> I knew she was sorry, I knew deep down, she knew it was her fault, I also knew that it opened up a TON of anger and bitterness for her to admit that and that's were the real problem was. She was still hurting and hurting bad over my emotional and physical neglect. She had to really deal with that before truly admitting fault. Why, well, because she had no good options, divorce was truly impossible for us and still would be, staying miserable one more day for her was impossible, and suicide, though she considered was not an option, and so, an affair was the easiest and quickest way to some happiness. Now, of course, we know it was a wrong choice, a bad choice, and it was her choice. But to her it was the only choice that gave her some happiness. So, out of all the bad choices she chose an affair, which, at the time, seemed like the right choice.
> 
> So, she had a lot of bitterness and anger over choosing that path and she blamed me for being put in that position because she hates what she did and what she had become.
> Now, she did not blame me for her choice, just for putting her in that vulnerable state. And you know what, I did put her in that vulnerable state. I did not love, honor or cherish her, I left her alone and isolated. I put her in a box with roughly 4 options, none of which were good. Divorce,suicide,misery, or some other way to find happiness.
> 
> What a sad list of choices. Makes me understand why people turn to drugs and alcohol to solve their problems. It's not right, but it happens.
> 
> That you admit you put her in that box is a strength, B1. You let down your marriage vows and admit it freely. I did the same, and paid for it.
> 
> Now, I always held to the fact regardless of the situation the affair choice was wrong, EI agreed to that also. But "fault" was the problem. Admitting fault was like saying everything I DID to her was not real, not valid, like it didn't happen and she felt like it was also saying she was overall a "bad person." It means it was ALL her fault. I advised her it was not. Adultery was her fault, now what I did to her was my fault, the state she was in, my fault. Her prancing around in lingerie and me ignoring her, my fault, her saying we have to work on this marriage and me NOT listening, my fault, her trying to get me into counseling and me not going, my fault and on and on.
> 
> An affair is the ultimate 2X4.
> 
> Her affair though, her fault. But this does NOT mean she is a bad person, EI is a good person that made a bad choice! ALL WS are NOT inherently bad people, many are really good people who made a bad choice in life. And in many cases there were circumstances in the marriage that led them down that affair path. And ALL BS's are not ALL good and perfect people either, most are also good people who made some bad choices too, well, it's that way in my case anyway.
> 
> Obviously, EI is a very good person, as evidenced by what we see of her here.
> 
> So, here we are. Faults confessed and forgiveness given. We are still on a journey though, with lots of curves and bumps I am sure. But we are sure in a better place now and more prepared for this journey.


Forgiveness is HUGE. There's nothing like it, and we have to keep working it sometimes to completely get there. It can be a process, not just a few words. 

I thought my wife had forgiven me for my EA, but I believe she never did. Still not sure if she has, and that's something else we need to work out in this mess. Forgiveness is for both the forgiver and the forgiven, this I know.


----------



## CantSitStill

Really proud of you guys for learning to really forgive eachother 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

CantSitStill said:


> Really proud of you guys for learning to really forgive eachother
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Worth repeating.


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Wow sounds like you two got alot out, that's great, so glad you were both able to get that anger out and now can keep pressing forward..bet you both feel better now
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes we do 
we turned a corner.
Today has been a great day so far, having good family time right now. Well, it's mostly family nap time, so gotta go and join in on that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Yes we do
> we turned a corner.
> Today has been a great day so far, having good family time right now. Well, it's mostly family nap time, so gotta go and join in on that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad to hear..good for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Yes we do
> we turned a corner.
> Today has been a great day so far, having good family time right now. Well, it's mostly family nap time, so gotta go and join in on that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


B1 -- can you explain what is family nap time ??


----------



## CantSitStill

jh52 said:


> B1 -- can you explain what is family nap time ??


lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

Dear Empty Inside and Betrayed1.

I haven't posted on this thread since Pidge's give-me-back but mostly because I thought it was becoming a Waltons "Goodnight Johnboy" page piler. Last week EmptyInside perhaps helped me to put my thoughts in perspective when she said something to the effect that this thread need some lower volumn points if the high points were to be assimilated properly.

With that said I like to comment on Betrayed1's thoughts on his very real but understandable, considering the challanges he faced, shortcomings leading up to EmptyInside's choice of action. Afterall EmptyInside indicated that the two of you were in the same place for a good while in your married life. 

I have in the past reflected to myself, in only an analytical way, about the image of EmptyInside parading in her Victoria Secret undies. However the qualifier for me was that she was doing so while you Betrayed1 were trapped in a deep dark well. Her undies wern't able to induce you to rescue yourself so she took them to the couch patting, threetime loser, SOB for his approval. It would offputting to think you were possibly accepting any culpabilty for what happened beyond her anger or disappointment with you as a husband.

I think the point I'm trying to reach is to get an answer to a question I posed to EmptyInside a couple of months ago about how she was able to move on and leave you behind in that dark place. I thought she was going to get into it when she was thinking aloud about her antidepressant usage in her responses to ChangingMe but it never was fully developed nor would that, in my mind, justify what was essentually the abandoning of her husband.

EmptyInside I know it may seem that my post gives with one hand and takes with the other but for instructional purposes, and if not only for my curiosity, knowing what you know now and what you felt then what could you possible have done differently, if anything, to get to the healthy(ier) place you and Betrayed1 are now? 

Seasalt


----------



## happyman64

Lotta honesty that you shared B1.

Communication is key. You are so right.

And getting all that hate out is key.

Great job both of you.

Keep going. 

And again thanks for sharing.

Maybe we can get your thread highlighted somehow in the Reconciliation section.

I am Glad for you two. :smthumbup:


----------



## SomedayDig

It's awesome to see you guys working so hard at this. It is very inspiring.

I will admit to everyone right now. I'm not ready to forgive. I'm just not. I have a lot of resentment and anger still inside me, and I don't feel like I'm ready. I've talked to Regret about this. She understands. Five years is a long time to betray me. There are so many facets to my resentment/anger that it will take me a while. 

That said, I am working on my resentment in IC. So far, it has been such a good experience and last week even quite challenging. I have my session tomorrow afternoon and I'm looking forward to sitting on the couch and talking some more. Hell, I wish I could do it more than once a week! 

We're coming up on 8 months post Dday. It is fairly calm in the Dig/Regret household. But that also means one big thing to me: In 4 months it will be a year since Dday. I'm still sometimes so sad about what happened. I'm still sometimes so angry.

I would really love to forgive her. I truly would.


----------



## CantSitStill

SomedayDig said:


> It's awesome to see you guys working so hard at this. It is very inspiring.
> 
> I will admit to everyone right now. I'm not ready to forgive. I'm just not. I have a lot of resentment and anger still inside me, and I don't feel like I'm ready. I've talked to Regret about this. She understands. Five years is a long time to betray me. There are so many facets to my resentment/anger that it will take me a while.
> 
> That said, I am working on my resentment in IC. So far, it has been such a good experience and last week even quite challenging. I have my session tomorrow afternoon and I'm looking forward to sitting on the couch and talking some more. Hell, I wish I could do it more than once a week!
> 
> We're coming up on 8 months post Dday. It is fairly calm in the Dig/Regret household. But that also means one big thing to me: In 4 months it will be a year since Dday. I'm still sometimes so sad about what happened. I'm still sometimes so angry.
> 
> I would really love to forgive her. I truly would.


I understand, I believe Calvin feels the same way. It's hard to just say "ok you'ree forgiven and I feel better and everything is fine" He loves me yes and we will go with our love for eachother and someday I hope he can believe how much I really love him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

seasalt said:


> Dear Empty Inside and Betrayed1.
> 
> I haven't posted on this thread since Pidge's give-me-back but mostly because I thought it was becoming a Waltons "Goodnight Johnboy" page piler. Last week EmptyInside perhaps helped me to put my thoughts in perspective when she said something to the effect that this thread need some lower volumn points if the high points were to be assimilated properly.
> 
> With that said I like to comment on Betrayed1's thoughts on his very real but understandable, considering the challanges he faced, shortcomings leading up to EmptyInside's choice of action. Afterall EmptyInside indicated that the two of you were in the same place for a good while in your married life.
> 
> I have in the past reflected to myself, in only an analytical way, about the image of EmptyInside parading in her Victoria Secret undies. However the qualifier for me was that she was doing so while you Betrayed1 were trapped in a deep dark well. Her undies wern't able to induce you to rescue yourself so she took them to the couch patting, threetime loser, SOB for his approval. It would offputting to think you were possibly accepting any culpabilty for what happened beyond her anger or disappointment with you as a husband.
> 
> I think the point I'm trying to reach is to get an answer to a question I posed to EmptyInside a couple of months ago about how she was able to move on and leave you behind in that dark place. I thought she was going to get into it when she was thinking aloud about her antidepressant usage in her responses to ChangingMe but it never was fully developed nor would that, in my mind, justify what was essentually the abandoning of her husband.
> 
> EmptyInside I know it may seem that my post gives with one hand and takes with the other but for instructional purposes, and if not only for my curiosity, knowing what you know now and what you felt then what could you possible have done differently, if anything, to get to the healthy(ier) place you and Betrayed1 are now?
> 
> Seasalt


_"what could you possible have done differently"_

That is the million dollar question seasalt. There is NOT a day that goes by that she doesn't ponder this, it's almost an obsession at times. She desperately wants that answer. Because in her mind she did do everything, and I can honestly say, she really did. I was just gone, I remember actually telling her one day there is no hope, our life is miserable, but this is the hand we were dealt so WE have to take it. Well, EI wasn't about to live that way anymore. After telling me for years our marriage was in trouble, after years of counseling, after years of trying to talk to me, she finally gave up on me and moved on. At the time, I believe EI saw it as self preservation! 

It's not pretty for either of us either. It's sad that all I could offer my wife was hopelessness and misery, and it's sad she resorted to an affair. But that's how this played out. We were both wrong to do what we did. I should have manned up and sought help sooner, went to counseling and pulled us out of the rut we were in. This is what I am doing now btw. 

She should have, I guess, held out, stayed miserable with me, and lived that way. I guess had she done that we would still be living in misery today. I just have to say divorce was NOT an option, you just have to take my word on that, our situation is FAR more complicated then anyone realizes. Sometimes divorce really isn't an option. 

EI will answer your question in MUCH greater detail though, I just wanted to say my piece now. One thing you are going to get from EI is honesty about this, what she felt and not what others may or may not expect to hear. 

We are NOT catering to those who say R has to be done our way or this way, OUR R was done OUR way. We both realize we did NOT go about this the TAM recommended way. But our way has brought us to where we are today, which is closer than we have ever been before.


----------



## CantSitStill

But she has now forgiven you right? That's huge 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> But she has now forgiven you right? That's huge
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes she has, and it feels really good. We have both felt a peace today we have not felt in a very long time. It's been a truly blessed day for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> But she has now forgiven you right? That's huge


*CSS,*

I really believed that I had forgiven B1, several months ago, for the ways that I felt that he had let me down the last several years. I had come to understand and accept that while he was battling long-term clinical depression and low Testosterone that he was simply incapable of coping any better than he was. Honestly, looking back, I am grateful that he was able to continue to work to support us.... but he always has. I felt that by accepting that, it meant that I was "finished" and that all was forgiven.... as least as far as my need to forgive him.

But, as the days turned into weeks and the weeks turned into months... 5 to be exact, it became, increasingly, apparent that B1 and I were having trouble reconciling one issue, in particular. I have never had a problem saying that I was sorry that he was hurting and acknowledging that I was the cause of his hurt. I was sorry from the moment I saw the look of anguish on his face on D-Day. I have never had a problem acknowledging that infidelity is not only a sin against God and the sanctity of marriage and that I was unfaithful to him and well as our children. I have never had a problem calling my affair a "choice" rather than a "mistake." The problem for me was acknowledging that the "choice" to have an affair was my "fault." I struggled mightily with the word "fault." I/we have spent the last two months in IC/MC struggling with this issue. At one point, I know that our MC was ready to walk out of the room and B1 and I just looked at each other, puzzled, like "If you can't help us... who can?" But, our MC and IC never stopped when we left our counselor's office. It goes on every single day in our home. There is not a day that goes by that we don't spend hours "working" on our "reconciliation," our "marriage," and "ourselves." Not. One. Day.

My honest, true, heartfelt feelings (Understand that my feelings are my own and they are not subject to opinions.... they are neither right or wrong.... they are MY feelings,) were that *B1 and I, both, made mistakes in our marriage...* and life had dealt us a pretty tough hand... or, perhaps we just took on too many of other people's responsibilities..... or both. After living a fairly miserable existence for several years, struggling with depression, weight issues, financial struggles, a spiritual crises, the deaths of too many loved ones to count, the challenges of raising 5 children, four with ADHD and one who is W/C bound with Cerebral-Palsy and MMR, and a legal situation that B1 and I have not shared on TAM, and so much more, I *knew* that I couldn't live that way anymore. I began working on myself and encouraged him to do the same. I was tired of living in a constant state of oppression. No matter how hard I tried or how many different ways I tried there was NO reaching B1... NONE... I'll take that to my grave.... I tried.... So, *seasalt,* the answer to your question about what *I* may have done differently to get to the healthier place that we are today.... like B1 said, that's the _Million Dollar Question_ and I've asked myself every single day.... to the point of driving myself crazy. The honest answer is that *I* couldn't get to this healthier place by myself..... it took *both* of us, and whereas *I am the only person responsible for my choices, my decisions, my infidelity*..........*B1 HAD TO FIND THE STRENGTH WITHIN HIMSELF TO SEEK THE HELP HE NEEDED TO MAKE THE CHANGES THAT WOULD BRING HIM BACK TO THE WORLD OF THE LIVING.* No matter how much you want to, you cannot will a person to change until they are ready to change, themselves. That was *ALL* on him. If, only, I am responsible for me..... then, it goes without saying that, only B1, is responsible for B1............. And, *B1 was responsible for refusing to work on our marriage.* So, with no hope of things ever improving, because B1 told me that "this is as good as it's gonna get... I'm defeated, you just need to accept it," I had reached the end of my personal capability of carrying a load that was just too heavy to bear alone any longer. I became very resentful... I had needed for him to be the spiritual leader of our household, our boys needed a strong father... I longed for B1 to take my hand and lead us out of this debilitating oppression that we had been living under.

So, *I made the conscious decision to have an affair.* It sounds rather absurd, now, doesn't it? Bringing a third person into the marriage did not solve anything, but I won't lie, it was nice being away from a situation that felt hopeless... it was nice to have someone who was not tired of the sound of my voice or the sight of my face, it was nice spending time with someone who enjoyed my company, who enjoyed similar interests, and who smiled when I walked into the room, it was nice being touched, it was nice, I won't lie... I chose that... and it was nice. I didn't feel that I had abandoned B1, because I truly felt that he had already abandoned me, long before. The affair didn't "fix" all of my problems at home, but at least it filled one of the many, many voids in my life... the need for emotional and physical intimacy.

After months of soul searching within myself, I became obsessed, almost desperate to understand why I felt so much anger and resistance to saying "The affair was my fault." Saying that it was "my choice" was easy.... saying that it was "my fault" brought on intense feelings of anger followed by a deep, overwhelming sadness. The bitterness that I had thought was long laid to rest was bubbling under the surface, eating away and threatening our reconciliation. B1 needed to hear me say "The affair was my fault." Not, "The affair was my fault, but fill in the blank." I felt that if he and I, both, made mistakes in the marriage, and he refused to help me repair the marriage, then I chose to have an affair as a means of escape from the marriage, then the "fault" for the sum total of our current situation belonged to both of us. But, I committed adultery, my husband's wife is an adulteress, my children's mother is an adulteress..... that makes me sick, devastated, heartbroken...... there really aren't any words that I can find to explain how that makes me feel.

B1 and I have talked and talked and talked.... we just keep peeling back the layers having one light bulb moment after another. But, he could see that I was crumbling under the weight of "owning" the "fault" for my affair. He said, "Let it go, it doesn't matter, I know you're sorry, I know we've both made mistakes." But, I wouldn't let it go. I refused to let it go. I knew how much resentment I had held because my feelings and my needs had gone unvalidated for so long. And, I knew that he needed this and that I had to find it within myself to "own" this "fault." I didn't want for him to bury his needs only to resurface years later in the form of his own resentment. That wouldn't be good for him or me. But, it *had* to be real.... heartfelt and genuine or I would only "take it back" later in a moment of anger. So, for the last few weeks we've just kept peeling back the layers. We have talked through every angle and every aspect and every feeling and every action regarding the downfall of our marriage. I deeply love this new man that my husband has become. I had loved him once before, very much, but that love had died. He is giving me everything that I could possibly dream of in the way of love, support and compassion.... but, I was sooooooooo angry with him..... underneath all of this "new love," that we are creating. I was still furious and bitter and resentful. Anyone know why? I hated myself for what I had become.... an adulteress... I hate that........... I wanted desperately to go back in time, I wanted for him to listen to me, to help me, to help himself, to help our children, to lead us out of this oppression.... I wanted him to have changed..... last year..... BEFORE I became an adulteress and shattered my husband, my children and myself. But he didn't and I did.....

You know what? I still don't know what else I could have done last year to ease my suffering, given the circumstances and the limited tools and resources that I had at my disposal, but I know what I should not have done. I should not have chosen to have an affair. That was my fault. I was weak. I was at such a low point... I didn't have the will to make a different choice. And, I was furious with B1 for leaving me alone, with limited choices. B1 should have dug deeper, like I did, to pull himself up. He lacked motivation, desire and strength, but he was cognitive of our suffering and he should have dug deeper. We both let each other down. But, we are both good people who made weak choices... because we were weak. We failed ourselves and we failed each other. But, here we are...... out of the ashes.......

When I woke up this morning I was happy. It was the first time since I don't remember when that I didn't feel a sick feeling simmering in my soul waiting to erupt..... "I'm sorry, B1, I am truly sorry, I had an affair. It was wrong. It was my choice. The affair was my fault. You let me down, too. *But, I have forgiven you*..... now, my anger is gone, my bitterness is gone, that sick feeling is gone, I just love you, and I'm sorry, with no "buts."


----------



## warlock07

Don't you guys consider Dday1 as an actual Dday ?


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> Don't you guys consider Dday1 as an actual Dday ?


Warlock, wasn't that mini-version long enough for you? I know you are a fan of looooooong stories! 

Yes, we do consider D-Day #1 as a D-Day. That occurred two months after the affair began in 2011. B1 discovered my affair, I broke things off with the OM, went NC, and B1 attended 1 or 2 MC sessions with me. We had about 6 weeks worth of hysterical bonding, but we never talked about the affair, we never really dealt with it in any way, at all, really. The whole thing was rug swept. B1 never expressed any anger or hurt.... he never mentioned it again... never once. We didn't deal with the affair nor did we address or change any of the issues in our marriage leading up to the affair. After about 6 weeks the hysterical bonding abruptly ended and our marriage went back to exactly as it was before, with the two of us living completely separate lives. In July, I contacted the OM and the affair began again. I would read on sites like TAM and others how WS's would get so frustrated because their BS's wouldn't stop the endless questions, wouldn't stop being angry, wouldn't stop throwing the affair in their faces. I remember thinking "I wish he had asked me some questions, I wish he had been angry, I wish he had been hurt, I wish that he would have given me some indication that he cared or that he had been affected, at all, by my betrayal." Looking back now, I realize that he just wasn't there, yet, he just didn't have it in him... He had started the T-injections the year before, but had stopped. He had started IC and MC, but after a couple of sessions he stopped that, too. He wasn't ready or able to deal with his own issues or our marriage. Even now, if you ask him if he was hurt and angry after the first D-Day, April 2011, he will tell you that he was angry for about a day and that was it. I recently asked him if he was silently "stewing" all of those months last year and earlier this year and he tells me that he never gave it another thought... not once. Until D-Day # 2.... May, 2012.

About a year ago, in the Fall, he started taking the T-injections, again, I wasn't even really sure why. I, certainly, wasn't asking him to. I wasn't asking him for anything with regards to our relationship, anymore, at that point I was knee-deep into my relationship with the xOM.

Soooooooooo......... the story picks back up with D-Day # 2.


----------



## B1

about the Dday #1, EI is right, it was completly rug swept, I would call it the biggest rug sweep in TAM history!
I didn't get angry, I wasn't hurt, We didn't talk about it, I just immediately said, "I forgive you, now lets move forward." and as we all know what happens many times after rug sweeping?

Within no time I was back to my old unattached self, we went back to seperate lives, and she went back to the OM. And I stuck my head up my a$$ for 10 more months, until I started T-injections then my head came out, and my radar started going off. 

Rugsweeping is BAD, Not dealing with the A is BAD, and not dealing with the issues in the marriage is also BAD.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> I would really love to forgive her. I truly would.


Just writing this much is a step in the direction of forgiveness. Just remember, the forgiveness is for you, too, not just Regret.


----------



## Acabado

Empty Inside, I feared this as I felt it was coming. You weren't dealing with it fully yet. You put your half full, optimistic lenses because that's who you are and because the situation at hand required it. You still had tons of anger inside, just hidden in a box. You needed to deal with that anger in order to admit completely the blame, and then to comprehend the severity of your (self) betrayal. It was necessary to start the process of (self) forgiveness. Anger helped you to avoid facing the mirror. As that support disappears you find yourself short of answers. The background story won't be relevant anymore, in this you are alone with yourself.
I do believe that being focused in rebuilding the marraige, focusing in B1 healing you weren't taking care of yourself, your own journey.
I'm not a believer in milestiones around absolution, I think is a process. I'ts a valid for other as for ourselves.
Please don't borrow trouble but as you opened the box you are going to need stregth to deal with it. I have no doubt B1 will be there. Trust him, he's now a rock.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Acabado said:


> Mal de muchos, consuelo de tontos


What is the English translation of this, Acabado?


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> about the Dday #1, EI is right, it was completly rug swept, I would call it the biggest rug sweep in TAM history!
> I didn't get angry, I wasn't hurt, We didn't talk about it, I just immediately said, "I forgive you, now lets move forward." and as we all know what happens many times after rug sweeping?
> 
> Looking back at this, how or why do you feel you were in that place of not hurting, not angry, instant forgiveness?
> 
> Within no time I was back to my old unattached self, we went back to seperate lives, and she went back to the OM. And I stuck my head up my a$$ for 10 more months, until I started T-injections then my head came out, and my radar started going off.
> 
> Rugsweeping is BAD, Not dealing with the A is BAD, and not dealing with the issues in the marriage is also BAD.


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## Acabado

bobka, my english is horrible but it's like; "The sorrow of many is a fool's consolation", it's old spanish proverb.


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## B1

bobka said:


> Looking back at this, how or why do you feel you were in that place of not hurting, not angry, instant forgiveness?


I simply refused to face it, I went to immediate "bury it" mode. I stuffed it down (I was very good at that), I said everything is ok, and really believed it was ok then. I really did think It was ok, that, I had it coming and that I could just forgive and everything would be better. Walls came down a little but not near enough. I did this for about 3 weeks, then I simply fell back to old habits and the walls went back up but even higher this time. I closed off like never before. I NEVER came close to facing what she did then.

I really truly felt no pain then, I didn't hurt or anything. No mind movies, no images, no thoughts, no anything. It goes to show what our minds can do in a traumatic situation. This time around though, I faced those hurts, I faced her adultery, and IT ALL CAME BACK when I opened up and the walls came down. I have cried for months now at least once daily. I have been angry, I have yelled, screamed, and faced this pain and hurt head on. Now, after 5 months, It's finally getting better.


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## happyman64

B1



> until I started T-injections then my head came out, and my radar started going off.


Are you sure it was T or did they flush the Kryptonite out of your body???



I hope you laughed. And whether it was DDay1 or DDay2 I am just glad both of you took out the microscope, analyzed the issues and keep working on them.

It is a lfetime process! So is marriage......


HM64


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## EI

Acabado said:


> Empty Inside, I feared this as I felt it was coming. You weren't dealing with it fully yet. You put your half full, optimistic lenses because that's who you are and because the situation at hand required it. You still had tons of anger inside, just hidden in a box. You needed to deal with that anger in order to admit completely the blame, and then to comprehend the severity of your (self) betrayal. It was necessary to start the process of (self) forgiveness. Anger helped you to avoid facing the mirror. As that support disappears you find yourself short of answers. The background story won't be relevant anymore, in this you are alone with yourself.
> I do believe that being focused in rebuilding the marraige, focusing in B1 healing you weren't taking care of yourself, your own journey.
> I'm not a believer in milestiones around absolution, I think is a process. I'ts a valid for other as for ourselves.
> Please don't borrow trouble but as you opened the box you are going to need stregth to deal with it. I have no doubt B1 will be there. Trust him, he's now a rock.


That whole post was very powerful, Acabado. Every single line of it. And, I am at a point, now, where I understand exactly what it means except for this part, _"I'm not a believer in milestiones around absolution." _ I do understand the part about it being a process, though. It takes time, effort, work, and self-reflection. None of that comes overnight... even if people say that it does.... it can't. And, I am a little leery of the line "Please don't borrow trouble" because the way I see it, if B1 and I are to have a true, lasting, healthy and long-term reconciliation, we have no choice but to open the box. Our counselor kept suggesting that "we move forward," and even B1 said, "It's okay, we can let this go." But, I wouldn't. Cognitively, I knew that I had to own "fault" not just "choice" for the affair. B1 needed that, was entitled to that and I owed him that much and so much more. But, it was a very real internal struggle for me. Owning "fault" is not as simple as saying the words.... words are meaningless without the heartfelt comprehension, emotions and acceptance behind them. It takes time for the WS to come to this level of understanding. It doesn't happen overnight and it cannot be demanded, forced or extracted from someone. To expect a WS who has been "caught," not one who has confessed, to "feel" any real remorse, guilt or shame on D-Day is unrealistic. Because, when they are in the midst of an affair, they have already "justified" the reasons in their own mind.

I'm am so grateful that B1 found the strength within himself to love me the most when I was the least lovable and the least deserving of his love. But, I was his wife and he knew.... what people on the other side of a keyboard could not possibly understand. That, although he did not recognize the woman that I had allowed myself to become, the liar, the deceiver and the cheater..... I was still the same woman that he had loved, married, raised a family and spent a lifetime with. He loved me enough to see if any of that woman still existed within the angry, defiant, hurting woman who was now staring back at him. Sometimes, opening your heart again is a risk that pays off in your favor and sometimes you get your heart ripped out all over again. Every BS has to decide for themselves if they care enough to take that risk. Everyone should be given the respect to make that decision on their own and then be supported in whatever decision they make. Because reconciliation is a journey.... sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.... but support, encouragement, wisdom and guidance is necessary in whatever direction you take.

I am very burdened about the way many of the posters on TAM attack new members when they post their stories. WS's are nearly always treated as worthless, nonredeemable, scum of the earth, who are defined only by their infidelity. There is rarely any compassion, empathy or attempt to understand what circumstances may have contributed to the decision to have an affair. For the BS's, there seems to be a one-size fits all _canned_ response of "Expose, go dark, do the 180, throw the WS's $hit on the front lawn and file for divorce." So many individuals, both BS's and WS's, alike, simply collapse under the relentless attacks, knowing that that "TAM formula" is not going to help them. They beg for understanding.... understanding that is withheld until or unless they "submit" to the TAM approved formula. Even if what they are doing seems to be working for them, they are told that they "simply do not get it.... their Reconciliation is false." 

I have said this many times, but I will say it again. There are as many different types of marriages, affairs, reconciliations, failed reconciliations and divorces as there are people. Every individual is different.... therefore every situation is uniquely it's own. 

Finally, we can use TAM for good or we can use it to tear others down. The way we choose to use it speaks only of our own character, not the one whose character you are scrutinizing.

~EI


----------



## CantSitStill

I get and undertand what you are saying Empty. I for a while could not figure out what my faults were. Found a ton on Calvin. Yes I owned having the affair but once I started really seeing things I could have done differently pre-A wow it woke me up. I stopped saying but you were this way and that way. I forgave Calvin for things I did not like pre-A because he has changed so much and has continued with these changes  Now it's still a struggle for him to forgive me but I'm never giving up 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I get and undertand what you are saying Empty. I for a while could not figure out what my faults were. Found a ton on Calvin. Yes I owned having the affair but once I started really seeing things I could have done differently pre-A wow it woke me up. I stopped saying but you were this way and that way. I forgave Calvin for things I did not like pre-A because he has changed so much and has continued with these changes  Now it's still a struggle for him to forgive me but I'm never giving up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When I said we both need to change CSS said she was fine the way she was and I was the one who needed to change,she said she was going to do whatever she wanted to.
She put it all on me,I called bullsh!t.
I brought up MC three times and got three solid "no ways".
When I wanted to be intimate with my wife it was a job to her or I was told to take care of myself or take a cold shower.
When she did finally go to the first MC it did not damn good,she even told the counselor she had no faults while I wrote a freaken book about mine.
The OM was after her sexually and after my house and all my hard work,the bastard was,still is a vampire.
I can say I never cheated...never.Tempted but I couldnt.I have kids,a house, a life and at the time a wife who didnt love me.
She wanted me to make her happy,I could only do so much.She needed to figured herself out,I couldnt do it for her.
She really wanted to see what else was out there.
I couldnt stop her but I was not being thrown out of my house and reduced to paying bills and stopping by to work on things and being her "friend".I want a wife,not a friend and I am NOT hired help.
If she would have really started going out with him like she wanted too,she would not be here right now.
I would and I would be the one "dating" right now looking for someone who would be true to me.
Life sucks ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I dont take any blame for what she did to me and I never will.She hurt the hell out of me and the kids.
Talk about making the wrong choice....UGH.
I'd never do that to her or the kids or to someone elses family.
Still trying to R,successful? Not yet.
This crap will be in my head for a long time and I dont derserve it.
If I sound frusrated and mad about what she did,its because I am.
Didnt have to happen this way.
I wont give up,who knows? I might in the furture but I doubt it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

> Life sucks ass.


But not forever. But how long is really up to both of you.

Peace Calvin. 

Do not let the threads get you going tonight. Especially when the kids are being so good.

You have a remorseful wife. A great family.

All is not lost. Focus on the positive. Focus on the healing.

No sermons tonight. I have lost power 3x from Sandy today and the storm is really just starting to hit us now.

Good Night.

HM64


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## joe kidd

happyman64 said:


> You have a remorseful wife.


Yeah there is something to be said for that. But given the choice I would prefer to have had a faithful one. But....it is what it is.


----------



## EI

I think this is something that could benefit everyone if they took the time to try to comprehend it's meaning for themselves.


Compassion as a key to Ascension | Openhand


----------



## MattMatt

betrayed1 said:


> about the Dday #1, EI is right, it was completly rug swept, I would call it the biggest rug sweep in TAM history!
> I didn't get angry, I wasn't hurt, We didn't talk about it, I just immediately said, "I forgive you, now lets move forward." and as we all know what happens many times after rug sweeping?
> 
> Within no time I was back to my old unattached self, we went back to seperate lives, and she went back to the OM. And I stuck my head up my a$$ for 10 more months, until I started T-injections then my head came out, and my radar started going off.
> 
> Rugsweeping is BAD, Not dealing with the A is BAD, and not dealing with the issues in the marriage is also BAD.


"Well, Matt, tell us how the rugsweeping idea worked for you?"

It didn't. In fact, it led to my own stupid revenge affair and nearly destroyed me.


----------



## calvin

Ok,rant over.
I'm fine.It does come and go but its nothing like it was months ago,so that is progress.
Maybe I'm being overly careful but no one will ever break my heart again.
thats a promise I mad to myself.
I'm with her because I love her.


----------



## happyman64

joe kidd said:


> Yeah there is something to be said for that. But given the choice I would prefer to have had a faithful one. But....it is what it is.


I hear ya Joe.

But you know something, as weird as this sounds, a woman who went to the dark side, saw the light and came back has become a far wiser person.

Because she realizes what she came close to losing.

Not all wayward spouses come back. We know that.

But the ones that do and are remorseful have the potential to be the strongest of all of us.

They clearly understand the pain they caused not only to us but our families and most of all to themselves.


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> I dont take any blame for what she did to me and I never will.She hurt the hell out of me and the kids.
> Talk about making the wrong choice....UGH.
> I'd never do that to her or the kids or to someone elses family.
> Still trying to R,successful? Not yet.
> This crap will be in my head for a long time and I dont derserve it.
> If I sound frusrated and mad about what she did,its because I am.
> Didnt have to happen this way.
> I wont give up,who knows? I might in the furture but I doubt it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, when your lady lets you down, it hurts.

I was hurt, I think you were hurt more than me.

Someone else who is hurting? CCS. Yes, CCS. And I know why. Because when I hurt my wife with my affair, I found that I was hurting far more from my affair than the hurt I had from my wife's affair.

CCS knows she hurt you and the pain that causes the hurter... I wouldn't wish it on anyone.


----------



## calvin

I like that Hm...a lot


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## calvin

yes I know M&M,I do


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## CantSitStill

It's been really rough on Calvin lately. I kinda knew whenever he would say"hey I've had a turning point" that the hurt and pain would come back. Something inside me scared me around 6mo of our R when he thought he was better. I knew it wasn't fully out of his system. Now it's getting hard but I'm holding on and we will get through this rough patch..God please let this new counselor help. We go on Thursday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Sorry for the hijack
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> Sorry for the hijack
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I saw no hijack!


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## calvin

E1 is right about compassion.
Without it,there's nothing.
CSS is doing what she needs too do for me and the trust is coming back,a lot of it is back....never thought it would take so long.


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## calvin

Time to make grilled cheese and matters out of my Mom and Dads garden...last ones...sigh.
Calling the suicide hot line 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Sorry for the hijack
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS,

There are no hijacks on this thread. We are all, here, working on ourselves and/or our reconciliations. This thread is for everyone and anyone who wants to be a better person, or better spouse, or better partner or just better...... any kind of better. It gives me so much peace.... just to type it all out. I figure a lot things out as I go.... my thoughts, my feelings, my realizations, I just leave them on the keyboard.

I have experienced a peace in the last 2 or 3 days that I haven't known in such a long time. So, please "hijack" this thread any time. I don't know where I would be without it. You guys have been such a gift to me. From you all I have learned so much about who I want to be and I've learned plenty about what I do not want to be, as well. 

I love you guys! <3

~EI


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## EI

calvin said:


> Time to make grilled cheese and matters out of my Mom and Dads garden...last ones...sigh.


Hmmm..... sounds good! I just finished off the last of our tomatoes and Tabasco peppers last week. I made salsa... Yum!!!



calvin said:


> Calling the suicide hot line


_Caaaaalvin??? _


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## Acabado

Thanks again for your post EI. I keep learning every day from you and B1.


> *Empty Inside* except for this part, _"I'm not a believer in milestiones around absolution." _ I do understand the part about it being a process, though.


It wasn’t too much well worded, right? I should have written forgiveness instead of absolution but it’s basically the same (being a process). I’m dense with forgiveness, I believed I was failing to forgive because I kept hurting because I often looked at my wife with hate or talked to her in anger, because a trigger put me back “there” again out of the blue. So on top of my pain I was frustrated with myself for failing to forgive. I realized It was futile to wait for a concrete event, moment or day I was supposed to feel I had finally forgiven her so I felt that huge weight left my shoulders forever and ever. I understood I was already forgiving her since DDay. That forgiveness became more evident when I decided to stay and later when I decided to participate fully in our reconciliation and later when I commit myself to stop punishing her. Now I’m still forgiving her every day. I Imagine someday I’ll realize I’ve forgiven and I’ll actually believe it at a core level. Not dying waiting for that day. It’s irrelevant. AND my wife felt the same, she stopped waiting for a day to be given absolution, to hear the so long expected words or forget her old self. She didn’t need a day to forgive herself. Every day I was there I was forgiving her and every day she is remorseful she was forgiving herself. Be remorseful is not a job or a chore, nor a burden, it's being her as she always was. I know will be days out of the blue, even many years ahead she will remember with sadness, does is mean she never forgave herself? I don’t think so. That’s how it works for us. No milestones, no absolution act.


> *Empty Inside* But, it was a very real internal struggle for me. Owning "fault" is not as simple as saying the words.... words are meaningless without the heartfelt comprehension, emotions and acceptance behind them. It takes time for the WS to come to this level of understanding. It doesn't happen overnight and it cannot be demanded, forced or extracted from someone. To expect a WS who has been "caught," not one who has confessed, to "feel" any real remorse, guilt or shame on D-Day is unrealistic. Because, when they are in the midst of an affair, they have already "justified" the reasons in their own mind.


 I do partially agree with you. I believe there’s a learning curve. I don’t know whether is possible un-walk the walk of rationalizations, excuses and justifications we believe in order to deal with our bad behavior. So I often tell every remorseful wayward must face a huge task which is almost a forensic research for the truth. You can sense, both by the words and the actions what are the chances that search is going to be successful. Many simply refuse to start that journey to begin with, due a combination of their psychological make up, pure detachment... too many reasons. The pain of being betrayed become insufferable at the sight of that alien.
So it’s true, you can’t demand, force or extract the full acceptance of responsibility, the full comprehension of the ramifications, you can't force empathy, compassion. You can expect it, thou. You should hope for it. You can also evaluate how far anyone is from it. You may tell yourself something even when you don’t believe it at your core, not fully, still your actions will go in that direction and hopefully one day It will be true. If not that’s when the contradictions arise. It’s obvious we all are fallible, the way we decide to deal with our failures is what makes the difference. And that difference is rather evident almost from the very beginning.


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## Acabado

I wanted to pu this in a different post.


> I am very burdened about the way many of the posters on TAM attack new members when they post their stories. WS's are nearly always treated as worthless, nonredeemable, scum of the earth, who are defined only by their infidelity. There is rarely any compassion, empathy or attempt to understand what circumstances may have contributed to the decision to have an affair. For the BS's, there seems to be a one-size fits all canned response of "Expose, go dark, do the 180, throw the WS's $hit on the front lawn and file for divorce."


Despite knowing you appreciate my support to you personally and to your reconciliation process I’m not different than the majority of the TAMers in that aspect. If you read my posts to the newbies they are not different. I don’t know how or even I posted in your first thread but likely it was in the same tough love, feel the consequences, hard line style.
Maybe because I chose to reconcile or because I’m three years ahead I can also be empathic to – some – waywards. So I’ll encourage and support them in their journeys. Sometimes I hesitate to offer support or sources because as we’ve seen too many times to count many just limit to parrot what they read or tell what they believe what we want to hear. As you remembered us people has to walk the walk by themselves, be genuine, authentic, honest with themselves. 
Beyond that you should demand the usual boundaries and then watch for a while if you can. That’s what B1 did, right?


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## calvin

Empty Inside said:


> Hmmm..... sounds good! I just finished off the last of our tomatoes and Tabasco peppers last week. I made salsa... Yum!!!
> 
> 
> 
> _Caaaaalvin??? _


What? The tomatoes are all gone...GONE!!!
well I got a few stashed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

calvin said:


> *E1 is right about compassion.*
> Without it,there's nothing.
> CSS is doing what she needs too do for me and the trust is coming back,a lot of it is back....never thought it would take so long.


One of the main things that I took away from that link regarding compassion was that if you could feel no compassion for yourself then you were incapable of having compassion for others. That really struck a chord with me. It makes so much sense. How can we grant something to others that we are incapable of feeling for ourselves. 

I want to give B1 the best of me. I love him and I want to give him, and our children, the best of everything that I have. A happy, whole, healthy, loving, compassionate and peaceful me. I don't want him to come home to a bitter, angry, resentful, self-depreciating, sad, broken, wife. I'm learning that reconciliation is about a lot more than "saving our marriage." We are actually "saving ourselves." I am reconciling me.... my life, my choices. I am acknowledging who I was... who I am, now, and who I'd like to become. If I choose to spend the rest of my life punishing myself.... then, I am not going to have very much to offer B1. I would rather try to understand myself, learn from my failures, decide who I want to be going forward and forgive myself. By showing myself compassion and understanding, I can release all of those negative emotions and give B1 the best of me. He is giving me so much..... he deserves the very best of me!


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## EI

calvin said:


> What? The tomatoes are all gone...GONE!!!
> well I got a few stashed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Well, are y'all gonna bring 'em when you make the road trip here? I can make a mean BLT sammich!_


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## EI

Acabado said:


> I wanted to pu this in a different post.Despite knowing you appreciate my support to you personally and to your reconciliation process I’m not different than the majority of the TAMers in that aspect. If you read my posts to the newbies they are not different. I don’t know how or even I posted in your first thread but likely it was in the same tough love, feel the consequences, hard line style.


You gave it to me, good, Acabado! I haven't forgotten the "tough love" that I got from any of my TAMer friends!  You, Warlock, Complexity, Bandit.......... several other TAM veterans. That's what I signed up for when I posted my story.... I knew that I wasn't in for a "pat on the back." But, you followed our story without having any preconceived notions about the ultimate outcome. You, respectfully, watched it unfold and let me have it when you didn't "like" the direction I was going in, i.e., my initial resistance to sending the NC letter.... I think you referred to me as a _Succubus_ and the AP as "_my Noble AP_" but, you were being sarcastic......  But, when you saw my sincere efforts to be a better person, a better wife, to help my husband heal and to "own" my responsibility you gave credit where credit was due. Respect earned is much more valuable than blind trust.... So you, the others that I mentioned, and a few more made a huge difference for me in those first few weeks.... a positive difference. And, you stuck around to follow our story. That means a lot to me.



Acabado said:


> Maybe because I chose to reconcile or because I’m three years ahead I can also be empathic to – some – waywards. So I’ll encourage and support them in their journeys. Sometimes I hesitate to offer support or sources because as we’ve seen too many times to count many just limit to parrot what they read or tell what they believe what we want to hear. *As you remembered us people has to walk the walk by themselves, be genuine, authentic, honest with themselves.
> Beyond that you should demand the usual boundaries and then watch for a while if you can. That’s what B1 did, right?*


Yes, to both!


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## EI

Acabado said:


> Thanks again for your post EI. I keep learning every day from you and B1.
> It wasn’t too much well worded, right? I should have written forgiveness instead of absolution but it’s basically the same (being a process). I’m dense with forgiveness, I believed I was failing to forgive because I kept hurting because I often looked at my wife with hate or talked to her in anger, because a trigger put me back “there” again out of the blue. So on top of my pain I was frustrated with myself for failing to forgive. I realized It was futile to wait for a concrete event, moment or day I was supposed to feel I had finally forgiven her so I felt that huge weight left my shoulders forever and ever. I understood I was already forgiving her since DDay. That forgiveness became more evident when I decided to stay and later when I decided to participate fully in our reconciliation and later when I commit myself to stop punishing her. Now I’m still forgiving her every day. I Imagine someday I’ll realize I’ve forgiven and I’ll actually believe it at a core level. Not dying waiting for that day. It’s irrelevant. AND my wife felt the same, she stopped waiting for a day to be given absolution, to hear the so long expected words or forget her old self. She didn’t need a day to forgive herself. Every day I was there I was forgiving her and every day she is remorseful she was forgiving herself. Be remorseful is not a job or a chore, nor a burden, it's being her as she always was. I know will be days out of the blue, even many years ahead she will remember with sadness, does is mean she never forgave herself? I don’t think so. That’s how it works for us. No milestones, no absolution act. I do partially agree with you. I believe there’s a learning curve. I don’t know whether is possible un-walk the walk of rationalizations, excuses and justifications we believe in order to deal with our bad behavior. *So I often tell every remorseful wayward must face a huge task which is almost a forensic research for the truth.* You can sense, both by the words and the actions what are the chances that search is going to be successful. Many simply refuse to start that journey to begin with, due a combination of their psychological make up, pure detachment... too many reasons. The pain of being betrayed become insufferable at the sight of that alien.
> So it’s true, you can’t demand, force or extract the full acceptance of responsibility, the full comprehension of the ramifications, you can't force empathy, compassion. You can expect it, thou. You should hope for it. You can also evaluate how far anyone is from it. You may tell yourself something even when you don’t believe it at your core, not fully, still your actions will go in that direction and hopefully one day It will be true. If not that’s when the contradictions arise. It’s obvious we all are fallible, the way we decide to deal with our failures is what makes the difference. And that difference is rather evident almost from the very beginning.


You are so right.... forgiveness like reconciliation is a journey.... not a destination. We can continue to evolve every single day.... I love the way you explained that. It takes the pressure off of feeling the need to arrive... at forgiveness or anything... because then when the bad days, inevitably, come, you wonder if you ever really got there in the first place.

If you were to ask B1, I know that he would tell you that I have been on a *forensic search for the "truth." * I have driven myself crazy in search of the truth... and I think B1 and I are finding it, together. But, I love the way you are able to put into words all of the jumbled thoughts that have been swimming in my brain.


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## CantSitStill

I remember my very first post on here and saying to Calvin with the responses.."wow these people just don't get me, they don't understand and they act like they hate me!" Now I laugh because now I understand them and still talk to them and am grateful for their advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

_I don’t know whether is possible un-walk the walk of rationalizations, excuses and justifications we believe in order to deal with our bad behavior._

that's deep, acabado. 

and it applies to so many things in so many parts of life. can we unwalk the walk of justifications that allows us to deal with the words that we can't take back and the words that we should have said (but didn't)? the possibilities that we turned away from and the roads that we didn't travel down (and maybe now can't ever travel down, now that that fork in the road is long past)?

what does it mean to need those rationalizations and justifications? i certainly feel an attachment to them myself. 

what will i lose if i lose them? 

what will i gain if i lose them?


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## margrace

_My honest, true, heartfelt feelings (Understand that my feelings are my own and they are not subject to opinions.... they are neither right or wrong.... they are MY feelings,) were that B1 and I, both, made mistakes in our marriage... and life had dealt us a pretty tough hand... or, perhaps we just took on too many of other people's responsibilities..... 

I couldn't get to this healthier place by myself..... it took both of us, and whereas I am the only person responsible for my choices, my decisions, my infidelity...

....B1 was responsible for refusing to work on our marriage. So, with no hope of things ever improving, because B1 told me that "this is as good as it's gonna get... I'm defeated, you just need to accept it," I had reached the end of my personal capability of carrying a load that was just too heavy to bear alone any longer. I became very resentful... 

So, I made the conscious decision to have an affair. 

I didn't feel that I had abandoned B1, because I truly felt that he had already abandoned me, long before. The affair didn't "fix" all of my problems at home, but at least it filled one of the many, many voids in my life... the need for emotional and physical intimacy...

B1 needed to hear me say "The affair was my fault." Not, "The affair was my fault, but fill in the blank." I felt that if he and I, both, made mistakes in the marriage, and he refused to help me repair the marriage, then I chose to have an affair as a means of escape from the marriage, then the "fault" for the sum total of our current situation belonged to both of us._

i've mentioned to you all that our first MC appointment was coming up. it was supposed to be yesterday but hurricane sandy took care of that  so now it will be friday.

i've also mentioned that i know we need to work on anger, and that i thought WH was getting in touch with some of his understandable anger and resentment. i think those feelings have to do with some of the same issues that you wrote about, EI, because our marriage was a desert as well.

i've acknowledged here my undeniable role in creating those circumstances, which i know hurt WH deeply. i want to shoulder that responsibility in an authentic way.

but now here comes another wave of my own anger (and i actually feel annoyed and distracted by that). as i read about your story, EI, something bubbles up for me: my WH did not plead with me to work on our marriage, the way that you did with B1 -- he never told me that he was unhappy, so unhappy that he was considering going outside the marriage.

of course, i wasn't doing any better pre-A. i was in survival mode, focusing on anything and everything *but* my feelings about my marriage. consequently, i was really disconnected from his (and my own) suffering. 

it was like, you can't fire me because i quit. 

and i did quit, which i am really ashamed of. but i didn't refuse to work on the marriage. i never had the opportunity to refuse to work on the marriage. and i think that, even in my isolated state, i might have been reachable with some honesty, some gesture, some expression of something from him.

of course, we'll never know. we did what we did. 

i don't want to get stuck here or anywhere else. every coin has another side to it. but i have feelings about this and i guess they are important to acknowledge, at least to myself.


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## B1

Acabado said:


> _*It’s obvious we all are fallible, the way we decide to deal with our failures is what makes the difference. And that difference is rather evident almost from the very beginning.[/*_QUOTE]
> 
> Very well put Acabado...worth repeating!


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## EI

margrace said:


> i've mentioned to you all that our first MC appointment was coming up. it was supposed to be yesterday but hurricane sandy took care of that  so now it will be friday.
> 
> i've also mentioned that i know we need to work on anger, and that i thought WH was getting in touch with some of his understandable anger and resentment. i think those feelings have to do with some of the same issues that you wrote about, EI, because our marriage was a desert as well.
> 
> i've acknowledged here my undeniable role in creating those circumstances, which i know hurt WH deeply. i want to shoulder that responsibility in an authentic way.
> 
> but now here comes another wave of my own anger (and i actually feel annoyed and distracted by that). as i read about your story, EI, something bubbles up for me: my WH did not plead with me to work on our marriage, the way that you did with B1 -- he never told me that he was unhappy, so unhappy that he was considering going outside the marriage.
> 
> *of course, i wasn't doing any better pre-A. i was in survival mode, focusing on anything and everything but my feelings about my marriage. consequently, i was really disconnected from his (and my own) suffering.
> it was like, you can't fire me because i quit.
> *


It sounds like you were very much like B1 in that respect. He, too, was in survival mode, totally disconnected from his suffering, my suffering, he was, honestly, disconnected from everything except work and breathing (sorry B1 .... But, the only resemblance you bear to that man today, is that you both have the same handsome face and shaved head that I love to massage.)



margrace said:


> and i did quit, which i am really ashamed of. but i didn't refuse to work on the marriage. i never had the opportunity to refuse to work on the marriage. and i think that, even in my isolated state, i might have been reachable with some honesty, some gesture, some expression of something from him.
> 
> of course, we'll never know. we did what we did.
> 
> i don't want to get stuck here or anywhere else. every coin has another side to it. but i have feelings about this and i guess they are important to acknowledge, at least to myself.


It sounds to me like, at that point, you and your husband were on equal footing. Both of you just limping along, unhappy, trying to carve out some kind of existence for yourselves. I'm not sure why neither of you ever tried to communicate your unmet needs to the other??? I know that B1 was unhappy, too, but he only expressed it when I was pleading for change for both of us. His response was that he simply felt too defeated... that he lacked the drive, will and motivation to pull himself and/or us out of (what I have referred to as) the cesspool of misery that was our life. I, on the other hand... have never suffered from the inability to communicate.  LOL

I know that B1 suggested to you a while back that your husband may be suffering from depression. You may be, as well, and I think that it is something that both of you should look into. Sometimes, a combination of medication (hopefully, just for a short time) and therapy can awaken your senses enough to have the will to begin the hard work. Meaning, it will get worse before it gets better. Even if depression, for one or both of you, played a role in the breakdown of your marriage.... the therapy and medication that could treat the depression would not, by itself, "fix" your already suffering marriage, what's done is done, but it could enable you to utilize the tools, within yourself, to begin the rebuilding process. Those are just some of my own thoughts and suggestions, based on....... well, based on all of the crap that I have already been through.... LOL 

You have every right to be devastated that he did not come to you when he realized that he was considering looking outside of the marriage to seek his own happiness. This is something that would have to be addressed in therapy. It is going to take 100% commitment on both of your parts to reconcile your marriage, margrace. It is obvious that is something that you are at least willing to consider or I don't think you would be here, online, trying to sort this out, you would be in your lawyer's office.

You asked me several pages back if I would mind discussing anger, etc.... here on the forum or in pm's. I am an open book, these days. And, you never know who might be lurking that finds this information beneficial to them, as well. B1 has received a lot of pm's from individuals who have questions regarding low Testosterone therapy. I know that for us if has been a huge factor in saving our marriage and possibly B1's own life. So, please feel free to ask me anything. If there is something you want to ask privately for your own privacy purposes, then pm or email me. If you find that depression has, indeed, played a role in your and your husband's marriage and being treated for it makes a difference in either of your lives, together or apart, then you might choose to share it, here, and then, who knows how many others might benefit, as well.

Take care,
~EI


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## margrace

> It sounds like you were very much like B1 in that respect. He, too, was in survival mode, totally disconnected from his suffering, my suffering, he was, honestly, disconnected from everything except work and breathing


yes, i think you're right -- i was like B1 in that way. the kind of work that i do is notorious for really really sucking people in at certain points in their careers, and i just sort of gave in to that. the issues between WH and i were already there before then -- so the career pressures were real but also served as a way to cut myself off from our issues. WH was working 24-7 at that time too (and still is).



> It sounds to me like, at that point, you and your husband were on equal footing. Both of you just limping along, unhappy, trying to carve out some kind of existence for yourselves. I'm not sure why neither of you ever tried to communicate your unmet needs to the other??? I know that B1 was unhappy, too, but he only expressed it when I was pleading for change for both of us.


we were *definitely* limping along! i think that WH would say that we were not on equal footing, however, because he was more connected to and more aware of his suffering than i was. i was the more shut-down, detached person in that way. was i depressed? i think that's possible. i wouldn't have told you that i felt sad or hopeless... but i would have said that i felt exhausted and stressed out. and alone. i guess that could be an expression of depression. was he depressed? probably. that is definitely something to explore when we start therapy, thanks for reiterating it.



> You have every right to be devastated that he did not come to you when he realized that he was considering looking outside of the marriage to seek his own happiness. This is something that would have to be addressed in therapy. It is going to take 100% commitment on both of your parts to reconcile your marriage, margrace. It is obvious that is something that you are at least willing to consider or I don't think you would be here, online, trying to sort this out, you would be in your lawyer's office.


yes, EI, i'm in it 100%. and i see that that my 100% is necessary but not sufficient. we *both* have to commit in that way. we both have to be ready to do hard things, to be honest with ourselves and each other, and to see this work as an ongoing process.

one of the things that's complicated for me is the balance between 1) the things that i *need* WH to own and be accountable for (and he certainly has these for me as well) and 2) the fact that at some point, i hope that it will begin to be enough. sometimes i feel like i could keep wanting to compare pain forever 

and the other thing is that i need to figure out how i will know if/when i can trust him again. or maybe i'll just know...?


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Looking at pre-A circumstances *has* to be a part of dealing with the A. There's just no other way. If I were to just look at what my wife did and impune her for that, where would that get us? 

There's culpability on both ends of the equation, and for that each has to own up to his/her own junk, for reconciliation to really work. 

We are now 2 weeks into R, and although conditions aren't perfect (can they be?), things are moving along. 

I guess I am still in something of a fog, feeling like I'm floating above it all at times, where my feet don't really seem to touch the ground. The hurt of what she did is still too fresh, too raw, for me to just move ahead with everything. And I realize that this did real damage to my psyche; the waiting and wondering what was going on, the return with revelations that I did not expect, and now this fog made up of pain and doubt. I don't doubt what my wife's telling me, I doubt whether we can "fix" what's broken to the degree that we can have a "normal" marriage again. As you all know, it's what I want more than just about anything, but I am not prepared to just lay down and let everything go by without questioning. 

We have our first MC tomorrow (together; we've both met with the counselor individually), and I'll probably have some insights from that. I hope I do.


----------



## cpacan

Empty Inside said:


> *CSS,*
> 
> I really believed that I had forgiven B1, several months ago, for the ways that I felt that he had let me down the last several years. I had come to understand and accept that while he was battling long-term clinical depression and low Testosterone that he was simply incapable of coping any better than he was. Honestly, looking back, I am grateful that he was able to continue to work to support us.... but he always has. I felt that by accepting that, it meant that I was "finished" and that all was forgiven.... as least as far as my need to forgive him.
> 
> But, as the days turned into weeks and the weeks turned into months... 5 to be exact, it became, increasingly, apparent that B1 and I were having trouble reconciling one issue, in particular. I have never had a problem saying that I was sorry that he was hurting and acknowledging that I was the cause of his hurt. I was sorry from the moment I saw the look of anguish on his face on D-Day. I have never had a problem acknowledging that infidelity is not only a sin against God and the sanctity of marriage and that I was unfaithful to him and well as our children. I have never had a problem calling my affair a "choice" rather than a "mistake." The problem for me was acknowledging that the "choice" to have an affair was my "fault." I struggled mightily with the word "fault." I/we have spent the last two months in IC/MC struggling with this issue. At one point, I know that our MC was ready to walk out of the room and B1 and I just looked at each other, puzzled, like "If you can't help us... who can?" But, our MC and IC never stopped when we left our counselor's office. It goes on every single day in our home. There is not a day that goes by that we don't spend hours "working" on our "reconciliation," our "marriage," and "ourselves." Not. One. Day.
> 
> My honest, true, heartfelt feelings (Understand that my feelings are my own and they are not subject to opinions.... they are neither right or wrong.... they are MY feelings,) were that *B1 and I, both, made mistakes in our marriage...* and life had dealt us a pretty tough hand... or, perhaps we just took on too many of other people's responsibilities..... or both. After living a fairly miserable existence for several years, struggling with depression, weight issues, financial struggles, a spiritual crises, the deaths of too many loved ones to count, the challenges of raising 5 children, four with ADHD and one who is W/C bound with Cerebral-Palsy and MMR, and a legal situation that B1 and I have not shared on TAM, and so much more, I *knew* that I couldn't live that way anymore. I began working on myself and encouraged him to do the same. I was tired of living in a constant state of oppression. No matter how hard I tried or how many different ways I tried there was NO reaching B1... NONE... I'll take that to my grave.... I tried.... So, *seasalt,* the answer to your question about what *I* may have done differently to get to the healthier place that we are today.... like B1 said, that's the _Million Dollar Question_ and I've asked myself every single day.... to the point of driving myself crazy. The honest answer is that *I* couldn't get to this healthier place by myself..... it took *both* of us, and whereas *I am the only person responsible for my choices, my decisions, my infidelity*..........*B1 HAD TO FIND THE STRENGTH WITHIN HIMSELF TO SEEK THE HELP HE NEEDED TO MAKE THE CHANGES THAT WOULD BRING HIM BACK TO THE WORLD OF THE LIVING.* No matter how much you want to, you cannot will a person to change until they are ready to change, themselves. That was *ALL* on him. If, only, I am responsible for me..... then, it goes without saying that, only B1, is responsible for B1............. And, *B1 was responsible for refusing to work on our marriage.* So, with no hope of things ever improving, because B1 told me that "this is as good as it's gonna get... I'm defeated, you just need to accept it," I had reached the end of my personal capability of carrying a load that was just too heavy to bear alone any longer. I became very resentful... I had needed for him to be the spiritual leader of our household, our boys needed a strong father... I longed for B1 to take my hand and lead us out of this debilitating oppression that we had been living under.
> 
> So, *I made the conscious decision to have an affair.* It sounds rather absurd, now, doesn't it? Bringing a third person into the marriage did not solve anything, but I won't lie, it was nice being away from a situation that felt hopeless... it was nice to have someone who was not tired of the sound of my voice or the sight of my face, it was nice spending time with someone who enjoyed my company, who enjoyed similar interests, and who smiled when I walked into the room, it was nice being touched, it was nice, I won't lie... I chose that... and it was nice. I didn't feel that I had abandoned B1, because I truly felt that he had already abandoned me, long before. The affair didn't "fix" all of my problems at home, but at least it filled one of the many, many voids in my life... the need for emotional and physical intimacy.
> 
> After months of soul searching within myself, I became obsessed, almost desperate to understand why I felt so much anger and resistance to saying "The affair was my fault." Saying that it was "my choice" was easy.... saying that it was "my fault" brought on intense feelings of anger followed by a deep, overwhelming sadness. The bitterness that I had thought was long laid to rest was bubbling under the surface, eating away and threatening our reconciliation. B1 needed to hear me say "The affair was my fault." Not, "The affair was my fault, but fill in the blank." I felt that if he and I, both, made mistakes in the marriage, and he refused to help me repair the marriage, then I chose to have an affair as a means of escape from the marriage, then the "fault" for the sum total of our current situation belonged to both of us. But, I committed adultery, my husband's wife is an adulteress, my children's mother is an adulteress..... that makes me sick, devastated, heartbroken...... there really aren't any words that I can find to explain how that makes me feel.
> 
> B1 and I have talked and talked and talked.... we just keep peeling back the layers having one light bulb moment after another. But, he could see that I was crumbling under the weight of "owning" the "fault" for my affair. He said, "Let it go, it doesn't matter, I know you're sorry, I know we've both made mistakes." But, I wouldn't let it go. I refused to let it go. I knew how much resentment I had held because my feelings and my needs had gone unvalidated for so long. And, I knew that he needed this and that I had to find it within myself to "own" this "fault." I didn't want for him to bury his needs only to resurface years later in the form of his own resentment. That wouldn't be good for him or me. But, it *had* to be real.... heartfelt and genuine or I would only "take it back" later in a moment of anger. So, for the last few weeks we've just kept peeling back the layers. We have talked through every angle and every aspect and every feeling and every action regarding the downfall of our marriage. I deeply love this new man that my husband has become. I had loved him once before, very much, but that love had died. He is giving me everything that I could possibly dream of in the way of love, support and compassion.... but, I was sooooooooo angry with him..... underneath all of this "new love," that we are creating. I was still furious and bitter and resentful. Anyone know why? I hated myself for what I had become.... an adulteress... I hate that........... I wanted desperately to go back in time, I wanted for him to listen to me, to help me, to help himself, to help our children, to lead us out of this oppression.... I wanted him to have changed..... last year..... BEFORE I became an adulteress and shattered my husband, my children and myself. But he didn't and I did.....
> 
> You know what? I still don't know what else I could have done last year to ease my suffering, given the circumstances and the limited tools and resources that I had at my disposal, but I know what I should not have done. I should not have chosen to have an affair. That was my fault. I was weak. I was at such a low point... I didn't have the will to make a different choice. And, I was furious with B1 for leaving me alone, with limited choices. B1 should have dug deeper, like I did, to pull himself up. He lacked motivation, desire and strength, but he was cognitive of our suffering and he should have dug deeper. We both let each other down. But, we are both good people who made weak choices... because we were weak. We failed ourselves and we failed each other. But, here we are...... out of the ashes.......
> 
> When I woke up this morning I was happy. It was the first time since I don't remember when that I didn't feel a sick feeling simmering in my soul waiting to erupt..... "I'm sorry, B1, I am truly sorry, I had an affair. It was wrong. It was my choice. The affair was my fault. You let me down, too. *But, I have forgiven you*..... now, my anger is gone, my bitterness is gone, that sick feeling is gone, I just love you, and I'm sorry, with no "buts."


EI, this was a very powerfull post! It hit right home with me in relation to some troublesome thoughts I struggle a great deal with myself.

I was one of those at TAM who roasted you in your initial thread. I haven't posted a lot on you and B1's current thread, but I have followed your story on a daily basis. I am very impressed with your progress in your relationship, almost impossible in just 5 months, and I appreciate the fact that you post your story here at TAM a lot.

I remember calling you out on the wide use of "..buts" - this goes for both you and B1. So it makes me happy to read, that you have worked intensely with this although discarted initially. It had a very strong impact on me when you identified the anger and resentment hidden behind the "buts" - I actually had trouble concentrating at work that day 

I also liked Acabados expression "unwalk the walk of rationalizations" very much, because I think it's key to understanding the risk of repeting the infidelity. 

So; I would like to ask you, if you believe there could be yet another layer on your onion? You say you have forgiven B1 and that you have let your anger go. What if he does something similar to you again (I know both of you will say it won't happen, but then make it a hypothetical question)? You said that you were left with only bad choices and that you resented him for this. So now you are not mad at him, but what if the situation reoccurs? Have you unlearned this bad choice as a solution? You know the option is there, you know it fixed a lot of troubles short term? What's to prevent it from happening again?

I ask this, not to bash you, but to get a better understanding of my own sh***y situation, so I hope you would give a thought or two.


----------



## ChangingMe

About to head to our first MC session. Wish us luck....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

OMG CM...Regret and I are on OUR way to our "first" MC session. I put that in quotes because our real first one was a quack. She actually got mad at me when she found out I exposed the xOM to his BS. She asked, "So you did that to get back at him?" I looked at her and said, "He's been screwing my wife for 5 years. What do you think?"

Anyway...good luck to you and DD. Fingers crossed for Regret and me. I'm a bit nervous, but it's definitely something that we've been looking forward to. We tried to get an appointment with this woman in July, but she was on hiatus writing a book on relationships.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> OMG CM...Regret and I are on OUR way to our "first" MC session. I put that in quotes because our real first one was a quack. She actually got mad at me when she found out I exposed the xOM to his BS. She asked, "So you did that to get back at him?" I looked at her and said, "He's been screwing my wife for 5 years. What do you think?"
> 
> Anyway...good luck to you and DD. Fingers crossed for Regret and me. I'm a bit nervous, but it's definitely something that we've been looking forward to. We tried to get an appointment with this woman in July, but she was on hiatus writing a book on relationships.


Best of luck to all of you. Our first is tomorrow...


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## margrace

> About to head to our first MC session. Wish us luck....





> OMG CM...Regret and I are on OUR way to our "first" MC session.





> Best of luck to all of you. Our first is tomorrow...


... and _our_ first MC session is this week, too -- friday.

best wishes to all of us and to our therapists too! funny how this is week #1 for so many of us here


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## happyman64

I would wish you good luck with MC but all I will say is good hard work.

And communicate.


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## CantSitStill

Dig, I'm proud of you for going for it..let us know how it goes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

SomedayDig said:


> OMG CM...Regret and I are on OUR way to our "first" MC session. I put that in quotes because our real first one was a quack. She actually got mad at me when she found out I exposed the xOM to his BS. She asked, "So you did that to get back at him?" I looked at her and said, "He's been screwing my wife for 5 years. What do you think?"


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Acabado

Positive vibes sent.
Dig, regret, CM, DD!!


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## SomedayDig

Acabado said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:


LOL!! I was watching TV just now and remembered the _exact_ quote from me.

IC: Oh, so you did it to stick it to him?
Me: Ummm...yeah, he's been sticking it to my wife for 5 years!

God, I was so pissed at her!

So, tonight was awesome. Absolutely night and f'ng day from the previous MC. Both of us felt so comfortable sharing and at ease with the MC it was just fantastic. I was hurt listening to Regret, yet oddly felt safe in that room. In turn, Regret seemed not to be on edge as much when I shared. I can only express how comforting this MC was with us. We are going back next week.

The only reason I got online (briefly) was to make this comment. Regret went out for her smoke...I know...I know - so does she. I wanted to share our positive experience with everyone and I hope all who are visiting their MC for the first time can have the same result. 

IF you don't...take it from me: Do NOT waste YOUR time or energy. Find the one that works. This MC from the beginning, placed the emphasis on what WE as individuals need from the sessions to create a lasting and meaningful marriage and reconciliation.

The Psychedelic Furs song "Heaven" from the 80's came to mind driving home.


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## Juicer

Good to hear it Dig!

Hope you two are still having fun times. I find creating new memories with my wife helps me to forget some of the triggers. 

And it is good you guys got a counselor that actually sounds like they went to school. Half of the ones out there today sound like they either slept through class, or are the biggest rug sweepers and blame shifters that I want to beat them. 



SomedayDig said:


> The only reason I got online (briefly) was to make this comment. Regret went out for her smoke...I know...I know - so does she. I wanted to share our positive experience with everyone and I hope all who are visiting their MC for the first time can have the same result.


Hey, we all pick our poison. 
Mine kills my liver. 
Her's kills her lungs. 
Gotta die from something.


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## Acabado

Hey, I forgot Juicer & RW!


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## Acabado

Glad to hear MC went well Dig

I loved The Psychedelic Furs!


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## EI

cpacan said:


> ....... So; I would like to ask you, if you believe there could be yet another layer on your onion? You say you have forgiven B1 and that you have let your anger go. What if he does something similar to you again (I know both of you will say it won't happen, but then make it a hypothetical question)? You said that you were left with only bad choices and that you resented him for this. So now you are not mad at him, but what if the situation reoccurs? Have you unlearned this bad choice as a solution? You know the option is there, you know it fixed a lot of troubles short term? What's to prevent it from happening again?
> 
> I ask this, not to bash you, but to get a better understanding of my own sh***y situation, so I hope you would give a thought or two.


cpacan,

This is a big post.... (just the kind I like..... ) and I wanted you to know that I am going to answer it for you, but let me respond to a couple others first, because I want to put some time and thought into this.... thank you for following our story, and thank you for acknowledging the effort that I have put into gaining a better understanding of myself so that I will never repeat my actions.... I hope, for those of you who have followed our story since my original thread, that the love, time, patience, energy, work, and most important of all.... honesty that B1 and I have put into our reconciliation is evident. Especially, to those whom, like you, have followed it since the beginning. He and I are in a far better place today than we were 5 months ago....... Actually, we are in a better place today than we've ever been. I've said this before, but it bears repeating... We are in a better place not because I had an affair, but in spite of my affair. We took what was, unarguably, the worst thing that ever happened in our marriage and made a conscious decision, on both of our parts, to use it as a catalyst to build a stronger, healthier, happier and more beautiful marriage.

There are those who would disagree.... fortunately, for B1 and myself, our happiness is not contingent upon anyone else's ability to understand.  For the last several days B1 and I have experienced not just feelings of our new found love and happiness, but with true forgiveness, on both of our parts, has come peace.... 

I'll will delve into your question "What's to prevent it from happening again?" a little later tonight or tomorrow.

Take Care,
~EI


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> LOL!! I was watching TV just now and remembered the _exact_ quote from me.
> 
> IC: Oh, so you did it to stick it to him?
> Me: Ummm...yeah, he's been sticking it to my wife for 5 years!
> 
> God, I was so pissed at her!
> 
> So, tonight was awesome. Absolutely night and f'ng day from the previous MC. Both of us felt so comfortable sharing and at ease with the MC it was just fantastic. I was hurt listening to Regret, yet oddly felt safe in that room. In turn, Regret seemed not to be on edge as much when I shared. I can only express how comforting this MC was with us. We are going back next week.
> 
> The only reason I got online (briefly) was to make this comment. Regret went out for her smoke...I know...I know - so does she. I wanted to share our positive experience with everyone and I hope all who are visiting their MC for the first time can have the same result.
> 
> IF you don't...take it from me: Do NOT waste YOUR time or energy. Find the one that works. This MC from the beginning, placed the emphasis on what WE as individuals need from the sessions to create a lasting and meaningful marriage and reconciliation.
> 
> The Psychedelic Furs song "Heaven" from the 80's came to mind driving home.


Great news Dig..glad it was good and it worked out. So happy for you two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> LOL!!
> So, tonight was awesome. Absolutely night and f'ng day from the previous MC. Both of us felt so comfortable sharing and at ease with the MC it was just fantastic........... I can only express how comforting this MC was with us. We are going back next week.
> 
> I wanted to share our positive experience with everyone and I hope all who are visiting their MC for the first time can have the same result.
> 
> IF you don't...take it from me: Do NOT waste YOUR time or energy. Find the one that works. *This MC from the beginning, placed the emphasis on what WE as individuals need from the sessions to create a lasting and meaningful marriage and reconciliation.*
> 
> The Psychedelic Furs song "Heaven" from the 80's came to mind driving home.



Oh my, so many big and amazing things happening with everyone, on this thread, tonight and the rest of this week. But, I had to jump in here, real quick, and say that I think that the *bolded* part of your post says something very significant. Reconciliation and marriage, in general, is not a _you or me proposition._ It is a WE type of commitment. B1 and I are thrilled that you have found an MC who is a good fit for both of you.

Congrats.... now, let the true healing begin...... of course, there is a crap ton of "work" involved with MC. I always thought that our sessions had been the most productive when we came out crying and yelling. We always continue the discussion at home..... we have continued the discussion for the last 5 months. 

Hang in there, friends!


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## EI

margrace said:


> ... and _our_ first MC session is this week, too -- friday.
> 
> best wishes to all of us and to our therapists too! funny how this is week #1 for so many of us here


Good luck on Friday, margrace. I wanted to make a suggestion to everyone going into MC for the first time this week (but, I couldn't get online, earlier, this afternoon, because our daughter, S-I-L, and grandson were here and our daughter is spoiled rotten and demands our full attention when she's here.)

There will be so many thoughts swirling around in both of your minds during your first MC session..... and probably for several sessions, thereafter. It will be hard to keep them all straight. In order to stay focused during my sessions, I keep a notebook and write down the things that I most want to address with my therapist. When it's time for my appointment, I prioritize the list and make sure that we cover those things first. But, then again, on your first session, your MC may take the lead just so that he/she can get an understanding of the issues you are dealing with.

~EI


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## EI

margrace said:


> *sometimes i feel like i could keep wanting to compare pain forever *


Reading that, one line, brought back truly painful memories. That was a huge issue for us in the first several weeks after D-Day.....

Oh boy, that was tough..... but, you know what? You do compare pain, you do it, and you keep doing it, and you keep doing it, and you keep doing it, and you keep doing it. And, it feels like it will go on forever.... But, if you do it long enough, and both of you truly listen to one another in genuine love and compassion.... it's possible to wake up one day and realize that the gut wrenching sickness that has filled your soul for so long is now filled with peace.

I don't presume to think that B1 is not in pain or that he isn't still burdened with the thoughts and images that continue to haunt him. But, I do know that his pain isn't quite as painful as it was just last month or the month before that or the month before that.... and I know that the frantic calls from him on the way in to work in the mornings, followed by more frantic texts and emails throughout the day have slowly been replaced by calls, texts and emails with declarations of his love, commitment, and happiness that we are in this together and more in love than ever before.

I just wanted you to know that it is possible to be truly happy, again. I know it, because I live it! <3


----------



## ChangingMe

Well, I felt our session went fairly well. DD scheduled us another one for next Monday, so I guess it didn't completely scare him off. 

I kept expecting him to back out yesterday. We met up at a drop-in daycare to drop the kids off & then head there together, and I kept expecting a text saying he wasn't going to go. But he did go, and that meant so much to me. 

The session was tough. We both shared things about how we're feeling. The therapist is good; it's the one DD goes to for IC, so he has a good rapport with him already. I went in once last Friday to meet him, and I like him too. Our assignment for the week is for us to write out what we want in ourselves, in each other, and in our marriage. 

After the session, I asked DD what he thought, and he said he wasn't sure, he wanted to think about what was said. I was supposed to go back up to work (we have a big fundraiser on Friday, so this week involves a lot of prep). DD asked if I wanted to go to "an awkward dinner" before I went to my meeting, so how could I say no to that?  We went to dinner, and it was fine. No deep talking, but not awkward. 

We didn't talk last night. My meeting was long, and I didn't get home till after 9:00. Hopefully we will talk tonight. 

One thing that I hope DD takes to heart from counseling, is the therapist pointed out that when DD gets triggered or paranoid, he starts tracking me, but doesn't tell me how he's feeling. He doesn't catch me in anything, but he says it doesn't give him any peace. The therapist said that, since that wasn't working, why not try to contact me, let me know how he's feeling, and have us figure out a way to help DD through those feelings. 

This was in response to him showing up at my office last Wednesday, convinced I was having some goodbye sex before OM moved on Friday. He was so worked up when he arrived, but he said that seeing me working did little to relieve his worries. I told him that if he had called me, I would have left work right then, driven to his office, and we could have gotten some coffee and talked through things. Not sure if that would have been the answer, but I will put everything on hold if it means I can help DD in someway. Just like going to dinner last night -I should have gone to my meeting; the other people were already there working. But I wanted DD to know that he was important and I would choose him over my job in a heartbeat.

I feel like I'm rambling, so I'll stop. Trying to process the session still. 

Dig & Regret, so glad you've found a counselor you "click" with! As a counselor myself, and now a client, I completely understand the importance of a good fit. 

Bobka and Margrace, best of luck in your sessions -or HM64 has it right -good hard work. If counseling is going to work, then it's going to be hard, because you have to be honest and dig deep. It's exhausting, but I think that it has the potential to get DD and me out of limbo and moving towards reconciliation. I hope it does the same for all of you too.


----------



## happyman64

ChangingMe said:


> Well, I felt our session went fairly well. DD scheduled us another one for next Monday, so I guess it didn't completely scare him off.
> 
> I kept expecting him to back out yesterday. We met up at a drop-in daycare to drop the kids off & then head there together, and I kept expecting a text saying he wasn't going to go. But he did go, and that meant so much to me.
> 
> The session was tough. We both shared things about how we're feeling. The therapist is good; it's the one DD goes to for IC, so he has a good rapport with him already. I went in once last Friday to meet him, and I like him too. Our assignment for the week is for us to write out what we want in ourselves, in each other, and in our marriage.
> 
> After the session, I asked DD what he thought, and he said he wasn't sure, he wanted to think about what was said. I was supposed to go back up to work (we have a big fundraiser on Friday, so this week involves a lot of prep). DD asked if I wanted to go to "an awkward dinner" before I went to my meeting, so how could I say no to that?  We went to dinner, and it was fine. No deep talking, but not awkward.
> 
> We didn't talk last night. My meeting was long, and I didn't get home till after 9:00. Hopefully we will talk tonight.
> 
> One thing that I hope DD takes to heart from counseling, is the therapist pointed out that when DD gets triggered or paranoid, he starts tracking me, but doesn't tell me how he's feeling. He doesn't catch me in anything, but he says it doesn't give him any peace. The therapist said that, since that wasn't working, why not try to contact me, let me know how he's feeling, and have us figure out a way to help DD through those feelings.
> 
> This was in response to him showing up at my office last Wednesday, convinced I was having some goodbye sex before OM moved on Friday. He was so worked up when he arrived, but he said that seeing me working did little to relieve his worries. I told him that if he had called me, I would have left work right then, driven to his office, and we could have gotten some coffee and talked through things. Not sure if that would have been the answer, but I will put everything on hold if it means I can help DD in someway. Just like going to dinner last night -I should have gone to my meeting; the other people were already there working. But I wanted DD to know that he was important and I would choose him over my job in a heartbeat.
> 
> I feel like I'm rambling, so I'll stop. Trying to process the session still.
> 
> Dig & Regret, so glad you've found a counselor you "click" with! As a counselor myself, and now a client, I completely understand the importance of a good fit.
> 
> Bobka and Margrace, best of luck in your sessions -or HM64 has it right -good hard work. If counseling is going to work, then it's going to be hard, because you have to be honest and dig deep. It's exhausting, but I think that it has the potential to get DD and me out of limbo and moving towards reconciliation. I hope it does the same for all of you too.


Hey CM

When DD is triggering or just freaking out (which does happen), one way of immediately alleviating his fear or anxiety is to take a picture on your cell phone of where you are or whom you are with. Your boss or a coworker.

Then send him the pic which he can verify by the time or date stamp.

This has worked for a number of couples on TAM. Maybe it will suffice for now until DD's feels enough trust can be restored in your marriage.

I am glad your update was positive.

Keep moving forward.

HM64


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Our session went well. We both have seen this guy before, so we were comfortable with him individually, and are comfortable with him together.

We talked quite a bit about individual needs, and about getting past the betrayal, which I need more help on. WW isn't as contrite about her A as I thought she should be, and we talked about the damage her trip caused me, how it will take time for that to fade away. Only with rebuilt trust will I truly be free of that. 

She continues to bring up my EA of many years ago, which I feel is so far in the past that it doesn't matter anymore, but she doesn't feel that way, so we are partially processing that again, too. I did not expect this, and it complicates our efforts.

As this was the first session, it's hard to draw any conclusions other than, as happyman and others have offered, there's hard work ahead.


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## pidge70

bobka said:


> Our session went well. We both have seen this guy before, so we were comfortable with him individually, and are comfortable with him together.
> 
> We talked quite a bit about individual needs, and about getting past the betrayal, which I need more help on. WW isn't as contrite about her A as I thought she should be, and we talked about the damage her trip caused me, how it will take time for that to fade away. Only with rebuilt trust will I truly be free of that.
> 
> She continues to bring up my EA of many years ago, which I feel is so far in the past that it doesn't matter anymore, but she doesn't feel that way, so we are partially processing that again, too. I did not expect this, and it complicates our efforts.
> 
> As this was the first session, it's hard to draw any conclusions other than, as happyman and others have offered, there's hard work ahead.


I guarantee the reason she isn't very contrite is because she feels she is justified in her A. I'm not saying she is right because she couldn't be more wrong. I kinda think this may be a little revenge A on her part.


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## SomedayDig

CM...yes, having it click was exactly what we need at this time. We've gone through so much stuff over the past almost 8 months, it was a relief to have someone look at me with Regret in the room and basically say I'm not crazy. Again, our former counselor told Regret in an IC appointment that if I continue to ask questions that she should tell me she's gonna leave!!!!?!!

The new counselor said I absolutely have the right to ask questions. AND multiple times. Said if I ask something a dozen times and Regret chuckled and said about 500,000. She immediately said, okay...so if Dig asks you the same question 500,000 times, then you respond politely 500,000 times.

Wow. Total paradigm shift from the last one!

Also, I will echo what HM said. When DD gets anxious, and he WILL get anxious, find a way like the pic or even a GPS program on your phone. Regret and I use an Android app called Real Time GPS. The great thing about it, is I can use my laptop or tablet - not just my phone to check in. I don't ask her to use it as much any more. But I do ask when I'm having one of those moments.


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## Acabado

bobka, as pidge pointed out she feels justified. Furthermore she's secretly happy you are hurting, you deserve the pain. Tell her to ask and then respond herself outloud. Then ask her whether she felt the answer (likely NO) sounded inside like a lie or the truth.
All affairs are somehow revenge affairs or affairs in revenge. It's no brainer. The need for revenge might be accurate or not, its a different animal, completely irrelevant to understand the point above.


----------



## B1

ChangingMe said:


> Well, I felt our session went fairly well. DD scheduled us another one for next Monday, so I guess it didn't completely scare him off.
> 
> I kept expecting him to back out yesterday. We met up at a drop-in daycare to drop the kids off & then head there together, and I kept expecting a text saying he wasn't going to go. But he did go, and that meant so much to me.
> 
> The session was tough. We both shared things about how we're feeling. The therapist is good; it's the one DD goes to for IC, so he has a good rapport with him already. I went in once last Friday to meet him, and I like him too. Our assignment for the week is for us to write out what we want in ourselves, in each other, and in our marriage.
> 
> After the session, *I asked DD what he thought, and he said he wasn't sure, he wanted to think about what was said. *I was supposed to go back up to work (we have a big fundraiser on Friday, so this week involves a lot of prep). DD asked if I wanted to go to "an awkward dinner" before I went to my meeting, so how could I say no to that?  We went to dinner, and it was fine. No deep talking, but not awkward.
> 
> We didn't talk last night. My meeting was long, and I didn't get home till after 9:00. Hopefully we will talk tonight.
> 
> One thing that I hope DD takes to heart from counseling, is the therapist pointed out that when DD gets triggered or paranoid, he starts tracking me, but doesn't tell me how he's feeling. He doesn't catch me in anything, but he says it doesn't give him any peace. The therapist said that, since that wasn't working, why not try to contact me, let me know how he's feeling, and have us figure out a way to help DD through those feelings.
> 
> This was in response to him showing up at my office last Wednesday, convinced I was having some goodbye sex before OM moved on Friday. He was so worked up when he arrived, but he said that seeing me working did little to relieve his worries. I told him that if he had called me, I would have left work right then, driven to his office, and we could have gotten some coffee and talked through things. Not sure if that would have been the answer, but I will put everything on hold if it means I can help DD in someway. Just like going to dinner last night -I should have gone to my meeting; the other people were already there working. But I wanted DD to know that he was important and I would choose him over my job in a heartbeat.
> 
> I feel like I'm rambling, so I'll stop. Trying to process the session still.
> 
> Dig & Regret, so glad you've found a counselor you "click" with! As a counselor myself, and now a client, I completely understand the importance of a good fit.
> 
> Bobka and Margrace, best of luck in your sessions -or HM64 has it right -good hard work. If counseling is going to work, then it's going to be hard, because you have to be honest and dig deep. It's exhausting, but I think that it has the potential to get DD and me out of limbo and moving towards reconciliation. I hope it does the same for all of you too.


I completly understand the bolded part CM. I had to always step back and think about what was said also, I even did this when me and EI talked. A lot of times, I would process what she said much later then come back with questions, concerns etc.

Not sure why I do that, but I do it a lot. I will play back what was said later and then analyze it. It's like I can't listen and analyze at the same time 

Sometimes after EI and I would talk about something I would come back hours later and be upset and angry over it. I know she had to be thinking...What the hell just happened. Well, I analyzed what she said, processed it, thought about it, and it simply pi$$ed me off, I just didn't get it during the conversation. I have sever ADD so that's probably part of the problem. I don't listen well at all.

Anyway, glad it went as well as it did. It sounds like it was overall positive.

btw EI will send me pix sometimes when she's out, and yes it helps.

I am not triggering near like I used to though. Things are much better around the B1\EI household. We have come along way in the past week!


----------



## B1

pidge70 said:


> I guarantee the reason she isn't very contrite is because she feels she is justified in her A. I'm not saying she is right because she couldn't be more wrong. I kinda think this may be a little revenge A on her part.


Bobka, I think pidge may very well be on to something. If this is true, it's going to take some work, a lot of counseling and talking to work through this. She's going to go through justification, bitterness, and anger and we are not even into your pain yet or dealing with the actual affair. Technically, right now, it's still probably all your fault or close to that. 

I distinctly remember EI pointing her finger at me a week or so after Dday and saying "It's ALL your fault!" and she meant it with all her being. She was pi$$ed, like an addict who couldn't get their fix. We worked through it though, sometimes I don't even know how in the hell we did it, but we did.

Hang in there, you have some rough roads ahead bobka, but we are here and willing to help the best we can.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

pidge70 said:


> I guarantee the reason she isn't very contrite is because she feels she is justified in her A. I'm not saying she is right because she couldn't be more wrong. I kinda think this may be a little revenge A on her part.


Because she brings up my EA so often as a part of this, you may have a very good point there about the revenge A. Still no justification, of course.


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> Bobka, I think pidge may very well be on to something. If this is true, it's going to take some work, a lot of counseling and talking to work through this. She's going to go through justification, bitterness, and anger and we are not even into your pain yet or dealing with the actual affair. Technically, right now, it's still probably all your fault or close to that.
> 
> I distinctly remember EI pointing her finger at me a week or so after Dday and saying "It's ALL your fault!" and she meant it with all her being. She was pi$$ed, like an addict who couldn't get their fix. We worked through it though, sometimes I don't even know how in the hell we did it, but we did.
> 
> Hang in there, you have some rough roads ahead bobka, but we are here and willing to help the best we can.


I never got the it's all your fault speech. The day after D-day I did get "thanks for ruining my one shot at happiness".


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> I never got the it's all your fault speech. The day after D-day I did get "thanks for ruining my one shot at happiness".


I never got any kind of sentiment from Regret that anything was "my fault", either. Within the first few minutes of me discovering her, I asked why. Her answer was that we didn't share the intimacy we once did. She retracted that almost immediately. She went NC with the xOM and never looked back.


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> I distinctly remember EI pointing her finger at me a week or so after Dday and saying *"It's ALL your fault!"* and she meant it with all her being. *She was pi$$ed, like an addict who couldn't get their fix.* We worked through it though, sometimes I don't even know how in the hell we did it, but we did.


Oh Honey, you flatter me so! That is such a lovely description of me!  I waaaaaay prefer the adjectives that you use when describing me these days!  LOL

EI will be on later to respond to some posts and to explain what "character flaws" of mine were the driving force behind those comments.... that I did, in fact, make.... unless of course, I have already been raked over the coals and put in the ash pile!  

For now, B1 and I are enjoying Halloween! All of our children are home tonight..... eating Chili and hot dogs, passing out candy to the neighborhood children, and I am getting ready to leave with our daughter and grandson for his first real trick-or-treating experience. Son-in-law couldn't be here on time. He has a big test. He has one more full semester before he will graduate in May with his degree in Industrial Engineering! 

Life is good! Oh, what a difference a year makes!

Take care,
~EI

<3


----------



## happyman64

Empty Inside said:


> Oh Honey, you flatter me so! That is such a lovely description of me!  I waaaaaay prefer the adjectives that you use when describing me these days!  LOL
> 
> EI will be on later to respond to some posts and to explain what "character flaws" of mine were the driving force behind those comments.... that I did, in fact, make.... unless of course, I have already been raked over the coals and put in the ash pile!
> 
> For now, B1 and I are enjoying Halloween! All of our children are home tonight..... eating Chili and hot dogs, passing out candy to the neighborhood children, and I am getting ready to leave with our daughter and grandson for his first real trick-or-treating experience. Son-in-law couldn't be here on time. He has a big test. He has one more full semester before he will graduate in May with his degree in Industrial Engineering!
> 
> Life is good! Oh, what a difference a year makes!
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI
> 
> <3


EI

No response needed. You summed it up nicely right here.



> *Life is good! Oh, what a difference a year makes!*


Have a great time with your Daughter and Grandchild. Those are the true fruits of your labor and reconciliation.


----------



## CH

Empty Inside said:


> EI will be on later to respond to some posts and to explain what "character flaws" of mine were the driving force behind those comments.... that I did, in fact, make.... unless of course, I have already been raked over the coals and put in the ash pile!


You made those comments because at the time you were right and everyone else was wrong. Nobody understood what you were going through and how much you were suffereing and everyone was on your back and that just added to your anger at the situation.

It's not a character flaw, it's being human. Survival, doing whatever it takes to survive no matter what. At times that overrides our senses of wrong and right.

It's only when you can sit down and look back do you see what you were at that point of your life. Those that learn come out better. Those that look back and say it was their fault I was like that will keep making the same mistake until they realize it was them all along.

I learned a good lesson in this. There are good people on this earth who have a great heart and truthfully I'm not really one of them. I'm very selfish to the core, although I've learned to temper it somewhat. But knowing this, I have learned to think of others before I do something stupid now a days.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I still do something incredibly stupid and have to say, Really did I just do that.....But at least I'm thinking about it instead of just letting it go and forgetting about it like I used to.

My favorite line in the past, it doesn't affect me in a bad way at all so I don't really care what happens. I had zero empathy towards others is what it was.


----------



## B1

Had a great day yesterday, me and EI are doing very well right now. She is happier than I have seen her in months. I was terribly worried there for a while but she is doing great and I am very happy about that.

She got her hair done yesterday too and man does she look good!

I have been doing much better too, it's been a little odd though, I am not having as many images and thoughts. No mind movies for a while now. It's good but for some odd reason it scares me a little too. I worry, am I shutting down again, I am closing off, sometimes I want to feel that pain to just know that I still feel. 

I cannot explain in words just how closed off I was pre-a, I didn't feel at all, and feeling is VERY new to me, and I love it, but I fear loosing it.

I have IC today, guess you know what the main topic will be


----------



## B1

cheatinghubby said:


> *Survival, doing whatever it takes to survive no matter what. At times that overrides our senses of wrong and right.*


I do believe our counselor said this also, that she went into survival mode, she was trying to just survive.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> I do believe our counselor said this also, that she went into survival mode, she was trying to just survive.


This is exactly where my wife was, too. Couldn't imagine going on like things were, couldn't fathom the lonliness, emptiness and rejection. The things we think we need to survive...


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> I have been doing much better too, it's been a little odd though, I am not having as many images and thoughts. No mind movies for a while now. It's good but for some odd reason it scares me a little too. I worry, am I shutting down again, I am closing off, sometimes I want to feel that pain to just know that I still feel.


I have similar concerns. What happens to us if either one of us "goes backwards"? If we shut down again, even with all the helps we now have in place, what does it say about who we really are? 

Still waiting on my med change to take effect. This is a big deal, and along with everything else, will take time and patience.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Had a great day yesterday, me and EI are doing very well right now. She is happier than I have seen her in months. I was terribly worried there for a while but she is doing great and I am very happy about that.
> 
> She got her hair done yesterday too and man does she look good!
> 
> I have been doing much better too, it's been a little odd though, I am not having as many images and thoughts. No mind movies for a while now. It's good but for some odd reason it scares me a little too. I worry, am I shutting down again, I am closing off, sometimes I want to feel that pain to just know that I still feel.
> 
> I cannot explain in words just how closed off I was pre-a, I didn't feel at all, and feeling is VERY new to me, and I love it, but I fear loosing it.
> 
> I have IC today, guess you know what the main topic will be


Hi B1:

I am happy to hear that you are no longer having as many images and thoughts -- which in my opinion is that you have your eyes focused on the road ahead (future) more frequently -- than checking in that rear view mirror that I tore out !!

My guess is also, that with all the hard work that you and EI have put forth in terms of a "new marriage", you have moved on and look forward to the "new marriage" as well as having forgiven or have started to forgiven both EI as well as yourself. 

Hope this makes sense.


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> I have similar concerns. What happens to us if either one of us "goes backwards"? If we shut down again, even with all the helps we now have in place, what does it say about who we really are?
> 
> Still waiting on my med change to take effect. This is a big deal, and along with everything else, will take time and patience.


We can't go back, it's NOT an option to me. I will do whatever it takes. My counselor doesn't think I will go back. He says, I am aware now and if I feel my self slipping then I pull myself up. He thinks after a year of NOT slipping then the possibility greatly reduces.

Hope your med change is going well. I know that can be a REAL pain, changing out meds.


----------



## B1

jh52 said:


> Hi B1:
> 
> I am happy to hear that you are no longer having as many images and thoughts -- which in my opinion is that you have your eyes focused on the road ahead (future) more frequently -- than checking in that rear view mirror that I tore out !!
> 
> My guess is also, that with all the hard work that you and EI have put forth in terms of a "new marriage", you have moved on and look forward to the "new marriage" as well as having forgiven or have started to forgiven both EI as well as yourself.
> 
> Hope this makes sense.


Nope not near as many, my counselor said the flashes are very normal and those will continue for a while. I must be doing better my session only lasted 40 minutes.

Hard work...you are not kidding, EI and I still talk and analyze so much about this affair every day. We confront every issue that arises within ourselves. We are both brutally honest and open. I leave nothing inside nor does she. We are both working so hard on this and our marriage, it's like nothing we have ever done before.

We are NOT taking this marriage, or each other, for granted that's for sure.


----------



## margrace

hi everyone:

hope that anyone who was here in the hurricane zone is recovering well and that your friends and families are, too.

i know this was a week when many of us began (or continued) MC. how did it go for everyone?

i went into our first session afraid to hope for much -- WH is not a huge therapy fan nor is he naturally inclined toward talking at length about feelings, etc.

still afraid to be too too optimistic  BUT it seemed like a decent start. the therapist had a down-to-earth style that suited us both well -- not jargony, not detached and cryptic, etc. he seemed able to help us articulate both our stories without making the other one feel like their perspective didn't matter.

WH still got quiet and stuck a few times, but the therapist was able to unstick him to some extent. 

i wouldn't say that tons of new stuff came out... but i could see how it's different when things come out in session as opposed to when it's just us talking. i'm thinking now that, although we need to continue talking to each other (of course), it might be better to hold off on some things until we are in MC. 

that began to occur to me during the session, and by the end, i was thinking to myself, oh, i see, i don't need to answer everything or respond to everything. it's more productive when i close my mouth for a minute and let therapist work with WH. (duh!) i'm so used to just the two of us going around and around that that wasn't so obvious -- plus i can see my own tendency to always want to get my two cents in and control the conversation, and that's something for me to work on.

WH had the opportunity to talk about our pre-A marriage and the pain that it caused him, and i got to talk about how, of all the painful pieces for me, the deception by WH is the thing that wounds me the most. we also had the opportunity to all affirm together that, as dead as the marriage was, his solution to that pain should never have been to act out by cheating. 

so all things considered, i'm giving it a cautious :smthumbup:

i hope to hear about your experiences, too. i would love to know about the things that have helped you make the best use of MC, and/or the ways that you incorporate it into the rest of your conversations. are there some kinds of issues/questions/feelings that you would "save" for MC?


----------



## CantSitStill

Well it depends, I wouldn't want my hubby to hold things in and throw them at me in MC. If he needs to talk something out I want him to do it at home. Unless something comes to his mind during MC then that's good too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> Well it depends, I wouldn't want my hubby to hold things in and throw them at me in MC. If he needs to talk something out I want him to do it at home. Unless something comes to his mind during MC then that's good too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hmmm, yes, i see what you mean -- i wouldn't want a brand new thing to have a thrown-at-you feeling either.

i mean more like, for us, there are some issues that we seem to not make much headway on on our own. seems like we sort of have positions and we say the same things to each other and then either get stuck or go around in circles or shut down. so i'm thinking, maybe let's not do that anymore and try it in MC instead....?


----------



## CantSitStill

true..the MC has a different way of approaching things and ways to get you thinking
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> hmmm, yes, i see what you mean -- i wouldn't want a brand new thing to have a thrown-at-you feeling either.
> 
> i mean more like, for us, there are some issues that we seem to not make much headway on on our own. seems like we sort of have positions and we say the same things to each other and then either get stuck or go around in circles or shut down. so i'm thinking, maybe let's not do that anymore and try it in MC instead....?


On issues we would get stuck on, we would just talk until we realized we were not getting anywhere, shelve it and come back later. YES, it would get heated, then one of us would just say can we stop for now, and we would put it away for a while.
We both seemed to know when the other had enough.

But, we always came back to it later, started back up, and eventually, after days or weeks of this, worked it out. But it definitely got worse right before it got better. As you dig deeper into the problem, you seem to always find anger and bitterness, they seem to just be there in every problem, or they are the problem. 

One thing we have both learned to do in all this is how to argue fairly, or like adults as our counselor says. 

Our counselor is big on wanting us to hold things until IC and\or MC. I just couldn't do that though. When it was on my mind, I have to get it out. No way I could hold stuff in anymore. EI doesn't either. EI, as she is on here, is brutally honest at home also. 

EI and I have done, and are doing, so much work on ourselves at home, that MC seems to be more of a, How are we doing session, we go in and say what we went through or what we are working on, how we handled it or how we are handling it, and get feedback from the counselor. Now, he throws in his comments and concerns throughout this too. We generally do not save things just for him.


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> true..the MC has a different way of approaching things and ways to get you thinking
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hopefully gets you thinking -- but also ways to open up and improve communications, ways to cope with situations, ways to self reflect and improve to become a better person/spouse/etc. 

At least this is my opinion on just some of the things a good/compotent counselor should be doing.


----------



## margrace

jh52 said:


> Hopefully gets you thinking -- but also ways to open up and improve communications, ways to cope with situations, ways to self reflect and improve to become a better person/spouse/etc.
> 
> At least this is my opinion on just some of the things a good/compotent counselor should be doing.


yes, as you and B1 are both saying, you have to learn to communicate/argue in a way that is fair and that gets you somewhere! 

we are definitely not there yet. with us, it isn't so much that it gets heated... it's more that we run into a place where one of us is trying to protect ourselves. or it's like, yes, i did this but YOU did that. and in the course of that, someone feels that their pain is being minimized or discounted or made second-most-important. 

i think sometimes i get stuck on wanting things to be said a certain way or with certain words or something like that. i think WH gets stuck when his shame or guilt floods him. he doesn't know where to go with that.


----------



## CantSitStill

The good news is you're both beginning the way you should, by trying to talk and going to MC. That's a great start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

with regard to good communication: how have you all managed differences in communication style, ability, and comfort level?

i understand from others of you (and also i feel it in myself) that part of getting through this whole thing is communication, and on the BS side, that includes receiving answers to questions.

as some of you know, my WH and i have just started MC, and had a decent first session last week. at the same time, my WH hates conversations about feelings. he tells me this frequently. he hates answering questions and is tired of it. he gets angry and/or he closes his eyes and looks away from me. he tells me that he is exhausted.

at the same time, i need to talk about it. and i need some reassurance from time to time about things that have happened, or some answers, or a statement of commitment to going forward, or _something_. 

i never seem to be able to calibrate this in the right way. i remember one of you saying, we know when to talk about it and when to put it away. maybe i don't know when to put it away? 

yesterday we had a conversation about it in the morning, which was difficult. then we had a normal day, even a nice day. i had had this one nagging question remaining, which i thought of as an open-and-shut, short-answer question so mistakenly i asked it -- and he blew up.

things seem to go best if i say nothing as much as possible. but of course that is not so good for me. 

anyone else have experiences like this ?


----------



## RWB

margrace said:


> ...that part of getting through this whole thing is communication, and on the BS side, that includes receiving answers to questions.
> 
> ...Maybe i don't know when to put it away?
> 
> I had had this one nagging question remaining, which i thought of as an open-and-shut, short-answer question so mistakenly i asked it -- and he blew up.
> 
> Things seem to go best if i say nothing as much as possible. but of course that is not so good for me.


3+ years in R with my fWW.

I think the biggest mistake most BS make in R is not understanding that there is a "Time Limit" to the questions and pretty much the discussion of the Affair(s) in general. 

I agree it takes years to rebuild a relationship after an affair, if even then. But, what I didn't know was "the discussion" of details will stop long before.


----------



## SomedayDig

Funny you mention that RWB. I was thinking about that the other day. 

Regret and I have been doing pretty well lately and it's been a relief to the both of us. However, even though the questions have subsided...when they come up, I come out fairly strong.

I wonder if they come out strong now because it's almost like the "last gasp". I mean, I know I've asked everything I can. The stuff I have questioned lately (two serious question discussions in the last two weeks) is more like such intricate stuff, I can honestly say - it isn't fair to Regret.

An example of how far I've gotten...and where I need to stop, is stuff like, "So when you did such and such did you have a shirt on?" 

As you said RWB, it WILL take years to rebuild our relationship, but I need to find peace within myself and stop such intricate and unhelpful questioning.


----------



## margrace

> I think the biggest mistake most BS make in R is not understanding that there is a "Time Limit" to the questions and pretty much the discussion of the Affair(s) in general.
> 
> I agree it takes years to rebuild a relationship after an affair, if even then. But, what I didn't know was "the discussion" of details will stop long before.





> However, even though the questions have subsided...when they come up, I come out fairly strong.
> 
> I wonder if they come out strong now because it's almost like the "last gasp". I mean, I know I've asked everything I can. The stuff I have questioned lately (two serious question discussions in the last two weeks) is more like such intricate stuff, I can honestly say - it isn't fair to Regret.
> 
> An example of how far I've gotten...and where I need to stop, is stuff like, "So when you did such and such did you have a shirt on?"
> 
> As you said RWB, it WILL take years to rebuild our relationship, but I need to find peace within myself and stop such intricate and unhelpful questioning.


thanks, you two.

when did the Q-and-A period end (or begin to end) for you? and how did you recognize that time when it came?


----------



## SomedayDig

For me, personally, I recognized it was beginning to end when I heard...truly heard the questions I was asking her. It's fairly raw because it happened just last week. It was a big realization for me.

Tomorrow will be exactly 8 months since I caught Regret in her affair. It was also a Tuesday...like tomorrow. I have been asking questions for the last 8 months. I think I've asked enough and don't need to ask anything else. I came to that conclusion this past weekend. 

I think tomorrow when I have my IC appointment, I'm going to discuss where I go from here to heal myself further. I know a lot of it has to do with letting go of resentments. THAT is huge. We also have our MC this week and I look forward to that as well.

I know this is gonna take a while. I'm okay with that. I'm just tired of asking the same line of questions.


----------



## SomedayDig

margrace said:


> with regard to good communication: how have you all managed differences in communication style, ability, and comfort level?
> 
> *Wow. Tough one cuz Regret and I are exact f'ng opposites when it comes to communication. I speak my mind. I wear my heart on my sleeve (actually got a tattoo to prove it ). Regret is the absolute exact opposite. Holy crap how I wish I'd known how tough that would make things!
> 
> But regarding your question, there is only one answer, IMO: Mutual respect. Yes, some on TAM might not agree with respecting the WS in any way. I would disagree only because if you are working toward reconciliation, it goes BOTH ways.*
> 
> as some of you know, my WH and i have just started MC, and had a decent first session last week. at the same time, my WH hates conversations about feelings. he tells me this frequently. he hates answering questions and is tired of it. he gets angry and/or he closes his eyes and looks away from me. he tells me that he is exhausted.
> 
> *I hate to be an a-hole, but he's got no "right" to be angry about questions. What is he angry about? (a good question to ask him in MC...not at home) Closing one's eyes or looking away is a bit of a red flag to me. Unfortunately, and Regret will totally confirm this - I have an innate ability to read people almost to a T. It's one of the reasons my Spider senses tingled so badly with the last trickle truth I had to deal with. I'm glad that feeling is gone. BUT...it was important to read her signals while listening to her answers. Unspoken communication is such a big deal - it's one of the reasons there are so many "arguments" on a forum like this. The reader is missing 80% or more of the conversation.*
> 
> at the same time, i need to talk about it. and i need some reassurance from time to time about things that have happened, or some answers, or a statement of commitment to going forward, or _something_.
> 
> i never seem to be able to calibrate this in the right way. i remember one of you saying, we know when to talk about it and when to put it away. maybe i don't know when to put it away?
> 
> *Try this - it's one of the things I did with Regret because, as she has said, she's not a great "talker". I would write out questions and email them to her. It would give her time to think about things (hopefully not to cover), and we would schedule a time for her to answer them. Also, it might be helpful to have a set time to discuss the affair. Example: Set up the time for tonight at 9pm and will end at 9:30pm. Having a time is good, because it won't feel - to him - like he could be "ambushed" at any time with questions. Regret knows that all too well!*
> 
> yesterday we had a conversation about it in the morning, which was difficult. then we had a normal day, even a nice day. i had had this one nagging question remaining, which i thought of as an open-and-shut, short-answer question so mistakenly i asked it -- and he blew up.
> 
> things seem to go best if i say nothing as much as possible. but of course that is not so good for me.
> 
> anyone else have experiences like this ?


Again, it's my opinion that he honestly doesn't have a "right" to get so angry and blow up at you. Understand this: You did NOT mistakenly ask a question. You are ALLOWED to ask questions of your wayward. Sorry, the game changed when he chose to go outside the marriage. Instead of getting angry with you, he should be thrilled that you're giving him another chance.


----------



## EI

I'm going to try to give the BS's some perspective from the WS's point of view. In the first several weeks, even the first couple of months when the questioning would seem endless, I understood that this was a very normal need for the BS because I had read it over and over on TAM. So, I tried to answer each question, even if it was the exact same question phrased 100 different ways, 100 different times, as patiently, lovingly, and compassionately as I possibly could. And, although, I can only imagine how painful it is for the BS to ask and then to hear the answers, I know how difficult it is as a WS to answer them. 

Contrary to what many BS's, on TAM, say about the WS's reluctance or refusal to answer the questions being about shame, for me, it was about not wanting to hurt B1. Although, I was reluctant to answer certain questions for that reason I, personally, never refused to do so. I would assume that is why many WS's are hesitant to answer specific and/or graphic questions. The one thing that would make me get up and walk away or tell him that the questioning "was over for now," was if he started being punitive with his questions rather than seeking facts for verification. For example if B1 needed to ask me 100 times how many times, positions, or places something took place, then I would answer those questions 100 times. But, the moment he would say something along the lines of "What does a mother think about when she is £€^%#¥* another man," then that question and answer session WAS OVER. Our MC told B1 that that was the equivalent of "punching me in the nose," and that it served no healthy purpose. After about 4 weeks B1 was able to ask questions without going in that direction. So, as a BS, if you can, perhaps, ask yourself if the questions are meant to satisfy your need to understand and verify or if they are meant to "punish." Beyond that, if your WS seems willing to answer your questions, at first, then gets mentally exhausted after a lengthy Q & A session, then maybe you could agree, beforehand, to a time limit. I don't mean a lifetime time limit, I know that B1 may have questions that occur to him a year from now, even 5, 10, or 20 years from now..... and that's understandable, I'm talking about time limits per session.

With all of that having been said, if I become aware that B1 is struggling with something, but is trying to "give me some breathing room," then I ALWAYS stop what I'm doing and encourage him to talk to me. It's give and take..... showing compassion and mercy for one another. It's exactly what "our" marriage should have been like all along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RWB

margrace said:


> thanks, you two.
> 
> when did the Q-and-A period end (or begin to end) for you? and how did you recognize that time when it came?


After about 9 months, my wife pretty much shut down answering anything more in detail. She said that she told me every time, everyplace, every detail she could remember (She had been serially cheating with 3 OM for over six years). 

To this day, some of her answers still seem a little flimsy, but she did admit to things that I would of never known or found out. I know it's hard for her to even think about the level of betrayal that she lived in for all those years. 

If I bring it up now, she slips into a dark state that last for days on end. I guess you get to the point where details like how many times together, did you initiate, did STD or pregnancy ever enter your mind, did lying bother you at all, whatever... make very little difference in understanding anything anymore. She has answered those kind of questions a zillion times. Her answers were mostly ones of selfish confusion anyway. And regardless, the damage is done and what it is... is what it is.


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> *I recognized it was beginning to end when I heard...truly heard the questions I was asking her.*


Dig, I couldn't agree more here. I have pretty much stopped with all the questions and we are 5 months out. Mainly because EI has been SO great about answering all of my questions, and the other part is I have learned to NOT ask the nose punching questions, and before I ask a question, I will ask myself, what will I get out of the answer...just hurt...or a confirmation. So many times it was simply asking for hurt, I had enough of that. 

Now, I feel I have enough information, this happened about a month ago, but, again, EI has been so open and honest with me with answers. She ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS answered my questions and 99% of the time without and attitude and without getting defensive. She would sometimes answer them to a point where *I would* say stop, that's enough details.
TAM really helped reinforce this with her and she took it to heart, because believe me, our counselor was against it.



Margrace, 
Sometimes when we would talk about a subject EI would visibly get exhausted, you could see it in her eyes, her body language, her limited responses etc. that's when I knew it was enough for now. I learned to stop. BUT this was after we were talking, meaning, she was talking too. I sometimes get the feeling your hubby isn't talking right from the start?

We always have a descent start and then it goes one way or another but I would say after 20-30 minutess on a very heated subject, that's enough, let it rest for a while.

I am also with Dig, getting angry is not ok, but it's something you obviously have to deal with. Try the email thing, I did that A LOT, give him a chance to think a little and prepare. Me and EI resolved a lot of the smaller issues via email. 


Also, one thing that would really kill EI is when I came to her with a question, if I came on really strong, like attacking, she would sometimes get defensive, she would usually answer the question though, but get angry afterwards because she felt accosted somewhat. I learned to come at her gently, without a lot of emotion. Even though I may be feeling a lot of emotions. 

EI responds in about the same manner I ask. I had to consider her personality in all this.


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## seasalt

EmptyInsidde,

Last week I was going to post that I couldn't think of any more questions and wish you both good luck but Sandy came between us. Your last post now prompts this comment.

I don't think a question about your actions that were contrary to your motherhood and in the best interests of your shared children was inappropriate from Betrayed1. At the very least the "What were you thinking when you were being unfaithful?" question is always going to be asked.

Certainly if the question is asked hurtfully it can shut you down and off. However, it still was a legitimate question that I hope you were ultimately able to answer even if knowing fullwell it couldn't satisfy him.

Keep taking care of each other.


----------



## EI

seasalt said:


> EmptyInsidde,
> 
> Last week I was going to post that I couldn't think of any more questions and wish you both good luck but Sandy came between us. Your last post now prompts this comment.
> 
> I don't think a question about your actions that were contrary to your motherhood and in the best interests of your shared children was inappropriate from Betrayed1. * At the very least the "What were you thinking when you were being unfaithful?" question is always going to be asked.*



Okay, I'll bite.... because I'm in that kind of mood....  B1 didn't ask "What were you thinking when you were being unfaithful?" (Actually he did about 1,000 times... ) Instead he said, "What does a mother think about when she is £€^%#¥* another man?" I think that the obvious difference between the two questions is that one is asked with the genuine intent of understanding what must have been going through my mind as I was betraying my family. The other was meant to imply that I was not a good mother. And, you know what, I will *NEVER* engage in that debate with *anyone* on TAM or *anywhere* else. I know that I hurt my children... no one will ever know how much that breaks my heart, perhaps more than anything in all of this mess, because they are the 100% innocent parties in all of this. But, I am a good mother..... I always have been and I always will be. It was the worst decision that I have ever made in my life as a Christian, a wife, a mother, and as a woman. I failed to "forsake all others" when I betrayed their father. Their father failed to "love, honor and cherish me" when he neglected me, emotionally and physically, for many, many years. In spite of that, B1 and I, both, love our children and have made sacrifices for them far beyond what most parents are ever called to do. 

When he asked that question, and a few others like it, with the intent to be punitive, I chose to end the conversation. We had made a choice to move towards reconciliation.... that choice includes making amends towards one another, not punishing one another. I think, at that point, we had both punished one another enough, already. After we had, both, had a few minutes to regroup, I realized what he was really saying, "I'm angry, I'm hurt, I'm scared, I'm insecure, I'm sad." So, I said what he really needed to hear. "I am so sorry that I hurt you, it was the biggest mistake that I've ever made in my life." (Don't get all bent out of shape about the word "mistake" *TAM*_ers,_ saying "It was the biggest 'wrong choice' just doesn't flow as well.") I told him that I loved him and that I would never hurt him this way, again. I promised to answer any questions that he had, honestly, even if it hurt both of us, but that I would not allow him to be disrespectful towards me. At that point in my life, I had had enough disrespect to last a lifetime and if he wasn't going to respect me, then I would respect myself. And from that day forward I have given him no reason to do anything less.

For the WS, answering difficult questions regarding infidelity, that are a necessary part of the healing/reconciling process for the BS, is a necessity. Being disrespected is a choice. Obviously, respect must goes both ways.... and that is how B1 and I have chosen to go forward... with love, respect, compassion, understanding and forgiveness towards one another.

Take care, 
~EI


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Empty Inside said:


> "I am so sorry that I hurt you, it was the biggest mistake that I've ever made in my life." (Don't get all bent out of shape about the word "mistake" *TAM*_ers,_ saying "It was the biggest 'wrong choice' just doesn't flow as well.")


The textbook definition of "mistake" is appropriate. Don't let them beat you up!

You guys rock!


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## warlock07

b1, how are you today ?


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## EI

bobka said:


> The textbook definition of "mistake" is appropriate. Don't let them beat you up!
> 
> You guys rock!


Thank you, bobka!  I've looked it up, and I agree with you. But, you have to pick your battles and this is one that I have no desire to dissect. "Mistake" is a word choice, nothing more,... I fully understand that I made a conscious choice to have an affair, to lie and to deceive. It wasn't an accident and it didn't "just happen." That was entirely my fault.... Now, unlike many others on TAM, I believe that the state of the marriage, in some cases of infidelity, mine included, can leave some spouses in a vulnerable position making the likelihood of infidelity a greater possibility. This is one "battle" that I am willing to take a stand on.... but, I don't think that I could say anything new that hasn't already been said in one of our three threads. 

Fortunately for B1 and myself, we both recognized how each of our mistakes, our poor choices and bad decisions led us to the place we are now. We are both working diligently on our marriage and ourselves. 

FYI:

Mistake: An error or fault resulting from defective judgment. To choose badly or incorrectly in action, opinion or judgement. A bad decision.


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## CantSitStill

I believe I've used the term mistake when talking about my EA but not intentionally..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

I have no problem with mistake. Accident however.....


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## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> I have no problem with mistake. Accident however.....


I have seen people say that on TAM..they say well we were friends and before I knew it we were accidentally in a relationship lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I believe I've used the term mistake when talking about my EA but not intentionally..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you saying that using the word "mistake" was a "mistake?" LOL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> b1, how are you today ?


Well, I am doing fine. Why do you ask?
Do you detect that something is amiss?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Well, I am doing fine. Why do you ask?
> Do you detect that something is amiss?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You guys are just kinda quiet. We all await your next messages with 'bated breath. You are our touchstones.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

joe kidd said:


> I have no problem with mistake. Accident however.....


Yeah, "accident" would never work.


----------



## MattMatt

Empty Inside said:


> Thank you, bobka!  I've looked it up, and I agree with you. But, you have to pick your battles and this is one that I have no desire to dissect. "Mistake" is a word choice, nothing more,... I fully understand that I made a conscious choice to have an affair, to lie and to deceive. It wasn't an accident and it didn't "just happen." That was entirely my fault.... Now, unlike many others on TAM, I believe that the state of the marriage, in some cases of infidelity, mine included, can leave some spouses in a vulnerable position making the likelihood of infidelity a greater possibility. This is one "battle" that I am willing to take a stand on.... but, I don't think that I could say anything new that hasn't already been said in one of our three threads.
> 
> Fortunately for B1 and myself, we both recognized how each of our mistakes, our poor choices and bad decisions led us to the place we are now. We are both working diligently on our marriage and ourselves.
> 
> FYI:
> 
> Mistake: * An error or fault resulting from defective judgment.
> * To choose badly or incorrectly in action, opinion or
> judgement.
> * A bad decision.


You mistakenly made a bad choice. 

I am only glad you made the right choice in coming here.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

My wife never lied or decieved. She did it all out in the open. Makes it weird. Told me she was unhappy, told me she was getting involved. While telling me the source of her unhappiness.

I actually had the chance to shut her down at one point, but instead told her to "do the right thing." Now THAT was a mistake!


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## Acabado

I never liked that discussion but I'm going to chime in. The problem with the word mistake and others with several close meanings is we don't look at the dictionary when we use them. We make a good use of this multiple use. Basic human psychology. But even we do it just out of inertia, subconsciously, the choice of words speaks our mindset and real intentions. Lets forget about cheating. We use mistake to minimize every wrongdoing. I don't believe for a minute we "mistake" the meaning of it. It's natural. We do it all the time.
In the end the diference between choice and mistake is you don’t have to give explanations for the later. Wich is great. It "sells" us somehow the notion it’s something that just “happened”, happened to us the same way happened to those affected by our actions. It minimizes or makes us void of responsibility not only for the poor choice but for the consequences.


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## CantSitStill

Empty Inside said:


> Are you saying that using the word "mistake" was a "mistake?" LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol it was an accident : O
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Acabado said:


> I never liked that discussion but I'm going to chime in. The problem with the word mistake and others with several close meanings is we don't look at the dictionary when we use them. We make a good use of this multiple use. Basic human psychology. But even we do it just out of inertia, subconsciously, the choice of words speaks our mindset and real intentions. Lets forget about cheating. We use mistake to minimize every wrongdoing. I don't believe for a minute we "mistake" the meaning of it. It's natural. We do it all the time.
> In the end the diference between choice and mistake is you don’t have to give explanations for the later. Wich is great. It "sells" us somehow the notion it’s something that just “happened”, happened to us the same way happened to those affected by our actions. It minimizes or makes us void of responsibility not only for the poor choice but for the consequences.


So many times, on talk shows ect.. people do say "it just happend" that means you must've been unaware? unconcious? lol you fell on that person and his weiner just happend to slip in?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Acabado said:


> We use mistake to minimize every wrongdoing. I don't believe for a minute we "mistake" the meaning of it. It's natural. We do it all the time.
> 
> _In the end the difference between choice and mistake is you don’t have to give explanations for the later._ Which is great. It "sells" us somehow the notion it’s something that just “happened”, happened to us the same way happened to those affected by our actions. *It minimizes or makes us void of responsibility not only for the poor choice but for the consequences*.


I, completely, agree with you, Acabado. I love the way that you defined that. You have the ability to articulate how even the tiniest nuances in the meanings of words can have a huge impact on how those words are "heard" by their intended audience. You do this all of the time in your posts. I can read something 10 different ways and then you will offer an explanation from a different view point and make it very easy for me to understand. That's pretty amazing for someone for whom English is not even their first language. 

Let me be very clear on this.... I have *ALWAYS* acknowledged that my affair was a conscious, intended choice. No one made that choice for me.... and it was not an "accident" and it didn't "just happen." From this day forward I will never again say that it was a "mistake." It was wrong... but it was not a mistake.... it was a choice. My choice of words was never intended to deflect from my ownership of my choice of actions... but if my choice of words offends or hurts any BS then, in the future, I will choose my words more wisely. 

~EI


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## CantSitStill

I've noticed people don't talk the way I grew up talking..in other words: people tend to say nowadays "I know, right?" I've always said "I know, aint it?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Empty Inside said:


> I, completely, agree with you, Acabado. I love the way that you defined that. You have the ability to articulate how even the tiniest nuances in the meanings of words can have a huge impact on how those words are "heard" by their intended audience. You do this all of the time in your posts. I can read something 10 different ways and then you will offer an explanation from a different view point and make it very easy for me to understand. That's pretty amazing for someone for whom English is not even their first language.
> 
> Let me be very clear on this.... I have *ALWAYS* acknowledged that my affair was a conscious, intended choice. No one made that choice for me.... and it was not an "accident" and it didn't "just happen." From this day forward I will never again say that it was a "mistake." It was wrong... but it was not a mistake.... it was a choice. My choice of words was never intended to deflect from my ownership of my choice of actions... but if my choice of words offends or hurts any BS then, in the future, I will choose my words more wisely.
> 
> ~EI


I am not going to start wordsmithing when posting here on TAM. Choice and mistake are not even close to meaning the same. 

You have a choice of what to eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

If your doctor tells you not to eat food with salt – and you put salt on every meal – you did not make a mistake – you made the choice to ignore your doctor. 

It’s like when some one decides to drink and drive. Then have a choice not to drink – and another choice not to drive – but when then drive drunk – that is not a choice – it is a mistake.

EI – yes you had a choice on whether to cheat or not --- you had that choice right up to the very first time – you chose to ignore the choice not to cheat – just like the person above chose to put salt on their food, but EI – your choice turned into, IMO the worst mistake you could ever make when you cheated. Then every time you saw xom – you made another bad choice and then you made another mistake. So, EI you didn’t make a mistake – you made several mistakes.

That’s what happens when we make very bad choices – they often turn into very bad mistakes. I don’t think the word mistake is use to minimize every wrong doing – every wrong doing has a consequence – thus a mistake can be made that is very small – like balancing your checkbook wrong == or you drink and drive and kill someone or yourself – that is a big mistake that you/the other family and your family have to live with the rest of their life’s. That is not minimizing the word mistake.

Also, a mistake happens once --- mistakes happen over and over again.

Mistakes are born from poor/bad/horrible choices.

Good choices -- are never heard from again -- except maybe from someone you love.

Just my 2 cents ---


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## warlock07

Empty Inside said:


> Thank you, bobka!  I've looked it up, and I agree with you. But, you have to pick your battles and this is one that I have no desire to dissect. "Mistake" is a word choice, nothing more,... I fully understand that I made a conscious choice to have an affair, to lie and to deceive. It wasn't an accident and it didn't "just happen." That was entirely my fault.... Now, unlike many others on TAM, I believe that the state of the marriage, in some cases of infidelity, mine included, can leave some spouses in a vulnerable position making the likelihood of infidelity a greater possibility. This is one "battle" that I am willing to take a stand on.... but, I don't think that I could say anything new that hasn't already been said in one of our three threads.
> 
> Fortunately for B1 and myself, we both recognized how each of our mistakes, our poor choices and bad decisions led us to the place we are now. We are both working diligently on our marriage and ourselves.
> 
> FYI:
> 
> Mistake: * An error or fault resulting from defective judgment.
> * To choose badly or incorrectly in action, opinion or
> judgement.
> * A bad decision.


You should have used choice instead of typing and arguing about all this stuff...


----------



## B1

and on the lighter side of things....good morning all!


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## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> and on the lighter side of things....good morning all!


Hey B1---hope you have a great Election Day. Be safe!!


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## Acabado

Good morning!


----------



## ChangingMe

Hello all~

A little update on the DD/CM homefront: it has been rough! This is going to be long, so feel free to skim if you want. 

Last Monday was our 1st MC session, and then I did something dumb and let us go till Sunday without having a real, sit-down talk. We weren't ignoring each other; still interacting about the kids and such, but I had a huge work fundraiser on Friday, so I had a ton to do and was getting home late, then there was Halloween, and then we hung out with DD's sister & her boyfriend on Friday and Saturday. If I'm totally honest though, I just felt too exhausted to process things, and since DD wasn't suggesting it, I didn't either. But I KNOW that when we don't talk for several days, things build for DD to the point of it being a nearly explosive conversation when we do try to talk. 

So that's what happened. 

Sunday, DD went to a friend's house to watch the football game, and while he was gone, I gave myself an assignment. In the book I've been reading, it emphasizes the importance of a WS really seeing and understanding how the BS feels. So I tried to really put myself in his shoes and imagine how I would feel if DD had had the affair. I wrote out 3 pages on my computer about this, sobbing while I wrote. It was really painful to do. When DD came home, I asked to talk, and I read him what I wrote. 

Unbeknownst to me, he was in a bad place to begin with (OM and his wife are officially gone and arrived with their moving truck in Wisconsin on Sunday. Apparently, DD expected this to give him a ton of relief, but it did not make him feel any better, and he was anger about that. He did not mention this till yesterday though.) After I read what I wrote, DD said it only captured about 1/10 of what he feels. He said he did not want us to do couples counseling, that he did not want to be in a relationship, that I could stay in the house, since I was the kids' mom, but that we would be roommates, etc. We talked a bit about things, and he got more and more angry, to the point of saying hurtful things, and then saying that we were going to end up divorced, and stormed to bed. 

The next morning, he called in sick which he NEVER does. He was just laying in bed as I got ready for work, and I asked if he wanted me to come back home to talk after I took the kids to school. He said fine, so I did. He didn't say much then; just laid in bed. Said he was pissed and depressed. We were supposed to have a MC session that evening, and I asked if he would rather go by himself, and he said yes. I had my IC appointment at 11, so I finally had to go to that. 

He texted me on my way home from work & said that I could go to counseling with him if I wanted. I said I would go, and if he wanted some of the session to himself, then I would go in the waiting room. 

I felt like it was a really good session. DD is considering getting back on an antidepressant for a few months, to see if it can help him get out of this dark hole, since he was in a better space when he took them in September. It was in MC that he brought up how having OM move didn't make him feel better, and how that made him more angry. 

My SIL kept the kids while we went to counseling, and she actually offered to have them spend the night, so we actually got to go to dinner and then to have a drink after counseling. When we got home, we got in the hot tub and talked a bit, but not real deep. I was so tired, and I think we were both emotionally drained from the night before and from the session. 

We committed to our counselor to talk a minimum of 3x a week, and he gave us a workbook with some assignments, and DD said he would do them with me. We scheduled another appointment for next Monday. 

Things still aren't warm and sunny, but today has been a better day than yesterday. These ups and downs are so draining, and I know they are taking a huge toll on DD. 

Thanks for listening (or reading). Writing it out helps me process.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Thanks for keeping us posted. It seems like you are going through some pretty normal stuff. Sorry it all had to be this way, and you wound up here.


----------



## B1

ChangingMe said:


> Hello all~
> 
> A little update on the DD/CM homefront: it has been rough! This is going to be long, so feel free to skim if you want.
> 
> Last Monday was our 1st MC session, and then I did something dumb and let us go till Sunday without having a real, sit-down talk. We weren't ignoring each other; still interacting about the kids and such, but I had a huge work fundraiser on Friday, so I had a ton to do and was getting home late, then there was Halloween, and then we hung out with DD's sister & her boyfriend on Friday and Saturday. If I'm totally honest though, I just felt too exhausted to process things, and since DD wasn't suggesting it, I didn't either. But I KNOW that when we don't talk for several days, things build for DD to the point of it being a nearly explosive conversation when we do try to talk.
> 
> So that's what happened.
> 
> Sunday, DD went to a friend's house to watch the football game, and while he was gone, I gave myself an assignment. In the book I've been reading, it emphasizes the importance of a WS really seeing and understanding how the BS feels. So I tried to really put myself in his shoes and imagine how I would feel if DD had had the affair. I wrote out 3 pages on my computer about this, sobbing while I wrote. It was really painful to do. When DD came home, I asked to talk, and I read him what I wrote.
> 
> Unbeknownst to me, he was in a bad place to begin with (OM and his wife are officially gone and arrived with their moving truck in Wisconsin on Sunday. Apparently, DD expected this to give him a ton of relief, but it did not make him feel any better, and he was anger about that. He did not mention this till yesterday though.) After I read what I wrote, DD said it only captured about 1/10 of what he feels. He said he did not want us to do couples counseling, that he did not want to be in a relationship, that I could stay in the house, since I was the kids' mom, but that we would be roommates, etc. We talked a bit about things, and he got more and more angry, to the point of saying hurtful things, and then saying that we were going to end up divorced, and stormed to bed.
> 
> The next morning, he called in sick which he NEVER does. He was just laying in bed as I got ready for work, and I asked if he wanted me to come back home to talk after I took the kids to school. He said fine, so I did. He didn't say much then; just laid in bed. Said he was pissed and depressed. We were supposed to have a MC session that evening, and I asked if he would rather go by himself, and he said yes. I had my IC appointment at 11, so I finally had to go to that.
> 
> He texted me on my way home from work & said that I could go to counseling with him if I wanted. I said I would go, and if he wanted some of the session to himself, then I would go in the waiting room.
> 
> I felt like it was a really good session. DD is considering getting back on an antidepressant for a few months, to see if it can help him get out of this dark hole, since he was in a better space when he took them in September. It was in MC that he brought up how having OM move didn't make him feel better, and how that made him more angry.
> 
> My SIL kept the kids while we went to counseling, and she actually offered to have them spend the night, so we actually got to go to dinner and then to have a drink after counseling. When we got home, we got in the hot tub and talked a bit, but not real deep. I was so tired, and I think we were both emotionally drained from the night before and from the session.
> 
> We committed to our counselor to talk a minimum of 3x a week, and he gave us a workbook with some assignments, and DD said he would do them with me. We scheduled another appointment for next Monday.
> 
> Things still aren't warm and sunny, but today has been a better day than yesterday. These ups and downs are so draining, and I know they are taking a huge toll on DD.
> 
> Thanks for listening (or reading). Writing it out helps me process.


To go several days without talking??? That would kill me, and back when we were heavy into it there is NO way I could have done that, I would have exploded.

The ups and downs can be extremely draining and mentally exhausting for sure. We would talk sometimes until we were literally too drained to even continue on. So, we would have to stop. 

So glad he is considering go back on meds, getting out of that dark hole is crucial for your R. I know it's not ideal and no one wants to go on them, but if they serve their purpose by lifting him up and getting him out of that dark place then they are worth it. Him not going into work, to me, is a big sign of depression. I am suprised he is doing as well as he is. I remember that dark hole, and I could barely function, no way could I have done a R while in that hole.

Make sure you give him the opportunity to talk throughout the day, he needs to talk, but his depression may actually be causing him to not care enough to talk. EI would frequently ask me if I'm ok, do I need to talk, she still does.

Glad today is a little better


----------



## CantSitStill

I know how hard all of this is, unforunately I do know but hang in there, it's worth the work. I the WS think is is anyway. sigh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

jh52 said:


> EI – yes you had a choice on whether to cheat or not --- you had that choice right up to the very first time – you chose to ignore the choice not to cheat –....... but EI – your choice turned into, IMO the worst mistake you could ever make when you cheated. Then every time you saw xom – you made another bad choice and then you made another mistake. So, EI you didn’t make a mistake – you made several mistakes..........
> 
> Also, a mistake happens once --- mistakes happen over and over again..........
> 
> Mistakes are born from poor/bad/horrible choices.
> 
> 
> Just my 2 cents ---


I agree with you 100%, jh.


----------



## oneMOreguy

ok, just couldn't help myself....its the adhd in me I suppose...

but in my case...I made a choice to make a whole bunch of mistakes............


saw my wife coming out of the voting place (in our case a little church in a mostly rural area) early this morning, as I was parking and getting ready to walk in to vote.....kissed briefly and then we went our separate ways for the day.

but about a 1/2 hour later it struck me just how absolutely good she looked walking up to me....so I texted her "gosh, you look pretty"

later in the afternoon (she's a teacher and doesn't check her phone too much during the day), I got her response "thanks, you're sweet!" and this just was so uplifting.

less than 12 months ago I was in such an inappropriate friendship with a very sexy and flirty gal half my wife's age 27 vs 54.......that an innocent and light exchange like this could never have happened, on the part of either of us. This is such a small back and forth, and yet a big step forward for both of us. Right now for us its the little things that are important, the things that others take for granted. Elly....if you see this, maybe I should not be such a pessimist right now........I am certainly a bit more hopeful at the moment......


----------



## MattMatt

bobka said:


> My wife never lied or decieved. She did it all out in the open. Makes it weird. Told me she was unhappy, told me she was getting involved. While telling me the source of her unhappiness.
> 
> I actually had the chance to shut her down at one point, but instead told her to "do the right thing." Now THAT was a mistake!


I got that, too. It *does *make it weird, doesn't it?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

MattMatt said:


> I got that, too. It *does *make it weird, doesn't it?


When she told me why she was so unhappy, I said "I can change these things." She said, "then why didn't you after being counseled more than once to pursue your wife?" 

I claimed that I didn't know how truly important these things (intimacy, sitting on the couch holding hands, playing a board game, going with her to an auction) were to her. Yet she had told me time and again. Was I being stubborn? Too old to change? Unable to grasp that I was losing my wife over little things I could and should do? 

I ignored her needs for many years, and expected love back for that. Everything else seemed so good to me, but I didn't know that underneath she was seething in her feelings of rejection.


----------



## Acabado

> Originally Posted by *bobka* View Post
> My wife never lied or decieved. She did it all out in the open. Makes it weird. Told me she was unhappy, told me she was getting involved. While telling me the source of her unhappiness.
> 
> I actually had the chance to shut her down at one point, but instead told her to "do the right thing." Now THAT was a mistake!


bobka, you wife sounds like a couple of female waywards I know: she mistook p) honesty with integrity, She believe aht bby giving you the dady to day of her cheating she was preserving... something. She was wrong. One day, if not already, she will find out. And it will hit her hard. Yes, cheating most times imply secrecy, deceit. But adultery don't I remember she's religious). She still doesn't realize that in order to betray her husband she had to betray herself first. Her values. It doesn't changue for the fact she told you practicaly in advance. She lost herself and still need to find herself again.
The few times I know it happened is was with women who believed themselves (beceuase they were) people with a huge deal of integrity, women of principles. Being open abut the cheating is the way the deal with it.

A few other times it happens the waywayrd is caught and things get out in the open. They even feel some relief, so they keep cheating only this time whith less guilt and the stress of the hiding. Those rarely snap out of tghe fog to come back to reality.


----------



## Acabado

bobka said:


> I claimed that I didn't know how truly important these things (intimacy, sitting on the couch holding hands, playing a board game, going with her to an auction) were to her. Yet she had told me time and again. Was I being stubborn? Too old to change? Unable to grasp that I was losing my wife over little things I could and should do?
> 
> I ignored her needs for many years, and expected love back for that. Everything else seemed so good to me, but I didn't know that underneath she was seething in her feelings of rejection.


Now a 2x4 for you. You DID know how truly important it was for her. You decided (choice, not mistake) it was not important to YOU. You decided she had to resign herself to that "fate". Not only that, you toke her for granted. You not in a million years believed she had "the balls" to fight her fate this way. You were comfortable with the things exactly how they were. You felt entitled to your comfort/happiness without giving back (total wayward thinking process, BTW) and adressing her claims.
Man, if you are to learn from this you also need to find the truth. And you are lying yourself with the cause of your inaction. You can't be honest with her without being honest with yourself first. You knew. Own it.

Your wife is rightfully angry. And I have the same questions she surely has: Why now? If cheating on you, losing her reputation, betraying her own values (because for now you are the only guilty part here, right?) was what iwas needed to make you wake up she could cheat on you years and years ago.
And.. why in the workd she has to believe your determination to change is going to last past a few months after you forget the affair?

I know fianaces are not exactly fine at home. marriagebuilders has tons of info for free in their website. Then 2, 3 books, very practical, with workshops can help you too. Many people find themselves with no money and the need to build the marriage anyway. It can be done even wityhout MC.

I hope things start to change for the better in your family bobka. I know you are not very vocal now because you sitch is not exactly the scenario TAM would like for you. I keep sending positove thoughts you and your wife's way.


----------



## theroad

I have been without electricity for a week. Reading this thread on page 144 about a WW, EI, trying to justify her affair.

There is no justification for an affair.

There is no way for a WS to throw their anger at the state of the marriage pre affair at their BS.

If the WS was that angry and that done with the marriage then they call a lawyer and file for a divorce. Once the divorce goes through then the angry but not a cheater then is free to date who and many as they want.

There is no justification to have an affair. This is why such unmeasurable pain from discovering their spouse has cheated causes such unmeasureable anger in the BS.

The angers of the WS and the BS are no where equal.

I was mad at you,

I felt hurt by you,

You angered me,

etc.

Are nothing but the WS blaming the affair and justifying their affair.


----------



## B1

Acabado said:


> Now a 2x4 for you. You DID know how truly important it was for her. You decided (choice, not mistake) it was not important to YOU. You decided she had to resign herself to that "fate". Not only that, you toke her for granted. You not in a million years believed she had "the balls" to fight her fate this way. You were comfortable with the things exactly how they were. You felt entitled to your comfort/happiness without giving back (total wayward thinking process, BTW) and adressing her claims.
> Man, if you are to learn from this you also need to find the truth. And you are lying yourself with the cause of your inaction. You can't be honest with her without being honest with yourself first. You knew. Own it.
> 
> Your wife is rightfully angry. And I have the same questions she surely has: Why now? If cheating on you, losing her reputation, betraying her own values (because for now you are the only guilty part here, right?) was what iwas needed to make you wake up she could cheat on you years and years ago.
> And.. why in the workd she has to believe your determination to change is going to last past a few months after you forget the affair?
> 
> I know fianaces are not exactly fine at home. marriagebuilders has tons of info for free in their website. Then 2, 3 books, very practical, with workshops can help you too. Many people find themselves with no money and the need to build the marriage anyway. It can be done even wityhout MC.
> 
> I hope things start to change for the better in your family bobka. I know you are not very vocal now because you sitch is not exactly the scenario TAM would like for you. I keep sending positove thoughts you and your wife's way.


ouch, I felt that 2x4 too bobka.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> Hello all~
> 
> A little update on the DD/CM homefront: it has been rough! ....
> 
> Last Monday was our 1st MC session, and then I did something dumb and let us go till Sunday without having a real, sit-down talk....... I KNOW that when we don't talk for several days, things build for DD to the point of it being a nearly explosive conversation when we do try to talk.
> 
> I tried to really put myself in his shoes and imagine how I would feel if DD had had the affair. I wrote out 3 pages on my computer about this, sobbing while I wrote. It was really painful to do. When DD came home, I asked to talk, and I read him what I wrote.
> 
> Unbeknownst to me, he was in a bad place to begin with... After I read what I wrote, DD said it only captured about 1/10 of what he feels. orced, and stormed to bed...........
> 
> The next morning, he called in sick which he NEVER does......
> 
> DD is considering getting back on an antidepressant for a few months, to see if it can help him get out of this dark hole, since he was in a better space when he took them in September.
> 
> We committed to our counselor to talk a minimum of 3x a week, and he gave us a workbook with some assignments, and DD said he would do them with me. We scheduled another appointment for next Monday.
> 
> Things still aren't warm and sunny, but today has been a better day than yesterday. These ups and downs are so draining, and I know they are taking a huge toll on DD.
> 
> Thanks for listening (or reading). Writing it out helps me process.


I know that this is hard and I'm sorry. As painful as all of this is, I think that DD's response is very normal for BS's at this stage. He is devastated, angry, confused and, still, after several months, in some denial about the new reality of your lives. It does sound like he is suffering from depression and I believe that our MC would suggest that he may exhibiting signs of PTSD, as well. 

I think that your letter was an excellent idea. Please don't be disheartened because he said that it only covered about 1/10th of what was on his mind.... because, at least, you covered 1/10th and, now, that can be used by either of you to open up to communication about the other 9/10ths. I want to suggest that you work extra hard to keep the communication going. He may be so depressed and confused right now that he doesn't even know where to begin. Notice my signature line at the bottom of my posts. I do think that B1 and I have come as far as we have because our communication never stops.... never. We talk every single day.... for hours. And, when we aren't talking, we are lying on the sofa, together, reading TAM, and comparing "notes" or playing "Words with Friends." If he gets too quiet, I ask him what's on his mind.... because I know that "it" is always on his mind.

I think that it might be an excellent idea for him to see his physician about an anti-depressant, at least temporarily, until he can begin to collect his thoughts properly. There are some anti-depressants that have fewer sexual side-effects than others. And, if not, well, there are meds for that, too.

Again, the most valuable piece of advice that I can offer to you, only because it has been so effective for us.... is to talk, and talk, and talk and talk.

I'm pulling for you guys!

Take care,
~EI


----------



## MattMatt

bobka said:


> When she told me why she was so unhappy, I said "I can change these things." She said, "then why didn't you after being counseled more than once to pursue your wife?"
> 
> I claimed that I didn't know how truly important these things (intimacy, sitting on the couch holding hands, playing a board game, going with her to an auction) were to her. Yet she had told me time and again. Was I being stubborn? Too old to change? Unable to grasp that I was losing my wife over little things I could and should do?
> 
> I ignored her needs for many years, and expected love back for that. Everything else seemed so good to me, but I didn't know that underneath she was seething in her feelings of rejection.


Well, OK, I admit it. My case _was_ a little bit weirder. We were a happy couple, but my wife decided she wanted an affair with a former boyfriend. But she did tell me she loved me and would come back to me. And did.


----------



## EI

bobka said:


> When she told me why she was so unhappy, I said "I can change these things." She said, "then why didn't you after being counseled more than once to pursue your wife?"
> 
> *I claimed that I didn't know how truly important these things (intimacy, sitting on the couch holding hands, playing a board game, going with her to an auction) were to her. Yet she had told me time and again.* Was I being stubborn? Too old to change? Unable to grasp that I was losing my wife over little things I could and should do?
> 
> I ignored her needs for many years, and expected love back for that. Everything else seemed so good to me, but *I didn't know that underneath she was seething in her feelings of rejection.*


bobka,

I can identify so much with how your wife was/is feeling. You already know that from reading through this thread!  Yet, I have so much compassion for you and the pain that you're in, as well, because I have my own "bobka." I call him "B1." Seriously, on occasion he and I do refer to ourselves as B1 and EI. Our daughter is "on to us" and she just rolls her eyes..... 

You were so much like B1. And, like Acabado said, you seemed to feel "entitled" to disregard her stated needs (because she did not fail to communicate them to you) because, as you said, "everything else seemed so good to you." In our case, B1 seemed to feel "entitled" to continue to "wallow in misery" because that was our lot in life. And, even though I, also, communicated my unhappiness, he seemed unable to comprehend the seriousness of the matter. Our counselor says that he was "unwilling" not "unable" (trust me, our counselor has plenty of "choice" words for me, too! ) to comprehend what I was telling him. But, in truth, I know B1, I know him better than anyone.... I don't think that he was capable of giving any more than he did at the time. I have said this before and I think it bears repeating. I don't think that you can feel empathy for others if you do not feel it for yourself, I don't think that you can feel love, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, or anything..... for anyone else if you are not capable of feeling these emotions for yourself. I, honestly, have come to believe that the way we treat others is a direct projection of how we feel about ourselves. I'm learning this stuff as I go! 

On D-Day, when B1's floodgates came down and all of the pain, devastation and anguish of my betrayal "hit him like a ton of bricks," almost immediately, within hours, came his realization of my pain, my devastation and my anguish, and that, too, hit him like a ton of bricks. 

Our reconciliation has been "nothing short of a miracle!" I give him 100% of the credit for even making reconciliation a possibility for us with his courage and strength during those first few weeks after D-Day. He is such an amazing man.... it just took him a while to figure it out.

I'm pulling for you, bobka! This can be done. But, your wife has to be as commited to it as you are... and she has a lot of making up to do. You both do.

Take care,
~EI


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> Well, OK, I admit it. My case _was_ a little bit weirder. We were a happy couple, but my wife decided she wanted an affair with a former boyfriend. But she did tell me she loved me and would come back to me. And did.


MM,

Your marriage is unlike ANY OTHER that I have ever heard about in my entire life! I know you love her. I hope that she loves you, too!


----------



## ChangingMe

betrayed1 said:


> Make sure you give him the opportunity to talk throughout the day, he needs to talk, but his depression may actually be causing him to not care enough to talk. EI would frequently ask me if I'm ok, do I need to talk, she still does.


I do try to do this, usually through text or email. I'll send something to see if he will respond, and then hopefully we'll go back and forth a bit. Like today, I shared something on his FB wall, and he immediately messaged me on there & we chatted for a few minutes. I do think it helps to connect throughout the day. I also try to get us to meet for lunch once a week or so if he's up for it, or on the days he works from home, if I can swing it, I try to get my son from Pre-K at 1, bring him home & take a late lunch. I feel like the more contact, the better -though sometimes he doesn't want to be around me, so I try to respect that too. But I will try to be more regular with my check-ins each day. That way he knows I'm thinking about him but doesn't necessarily have to reply if he's busy or doesn't want to. 



Empty Inside said:


> I know that this is hard and I'm sorry. As painful as all of this is, I think that DD's response is very normal for BS's at this stage. He is devastated, angry, confused and, still, after several months, in some denial about the new reality of your lives. It does sound like he is suffering from depression and I believe that our MC would suggest that he may exhibiting signs of PTSD, as well.
> 
> I think that your letter was an excellent idea. Please don't be disheartened because he said that it only covered about 1/10th of what was on his mind.... because, at least, you covered 1/10th and, now, that can be used by either of you to open up to communication about the other 9/10ths. I want to suggest that you work extra hard to keep the communication going. He may be so depressed and confused right now that he doesn't even know where to begin. Notice my signature line at the bottom of my posts. I do think that B1 and I have come as far as we have because our communication never stops.... never. We talk every single day.... for hours. And, when we aren't talking, we are lying on the sofa, together, reading TAM, and comparing "notes" or playing "Words with Friends." If he gets too quiet, I ask him what's on his mind.... because I know that "it" is always on his mind.
> 
> Again, the most valuable piece of advice that I can offer to you, only because it has been so effective for us.... is to talk, and talk, and talk and talk.


Thank you, EI. Your posts truly are always filled with wisdom, and I find them so helpful. I like how you reframe things and help me to see the positive in what looks like a very negative comment or situation. 

My IC also has suggested there's some PTSD symptoms going on, and I see it too. So sad. I can't believe I've caused this in my husband. 

I know, I know, I know about the talking. When we do it regularly, life is much better, but somehow we can let a couple days slip, and then I know it's going to be a rough talk, so I can't say that I beg for it. But I need to bring it up and get us to talk. I've gotten a lot better about it since joining TAM; I realize that my not bringing it up was in no way keeping it off DD's mind. 

I guess I will get off of here now and see if my man wants to chat.


----------



## B1

theroad said:


> I have been without electricity for a week. Reading this thread on page 144 about a WW, EI, trying to justify her affair.
> 
> There is no justification for an affair.
> 
> There is no way for a WS to throw their anger at the state of the marriage pre affair at their BS.
> 
> If the WS was that angry and that done with the marriage then they call a lawyer and file for a divorce. Once the divorce goes through then the angry but not a cheater then is free to date who and many as they want.
> 
> There is no justification to have an affair. This is why such unmeasurable pain from discovering their spouse has cheated causes such unmeasureable anger in the BS.
> 
> The angers of the WS and the BS are no where equal.
> 
> I was mad at you,
> 
> I felt hurt by you,
> 
> You angered me,
> 
> etc.
> 
> Are nothing but the WS blaming the affair and justifying their affair.


You are right, there is no justification. You, I assume, are taking her reasons for justifications? A reason is different than an excuse or justification. To me, part of reconciliation is identifying, and working on the "why" or the "reason."

One thing you learn in counseling is that you address all the issues. You don't just say, "YOU had an affair so let's ONLY work on ME and MY pain." You absolutely must work on each other, separately and together. You must address the reasons, not excuses, but the reasons. A WS has reasons they strayed. And it's one of the first things asked when a WS posts, and then the first thing the hard liners say is, "excuses, justifications, etc..." NO, they are her reasons and if you want to reconcile you must address them, too. 

A marriage is about two people, not one. Our marriage was a disaster pre-A (I realize some are not) ours was, so we HAVE to address the pre-A issues also. EI had every right to be angry and hurt and, in this marriage, her pain counts too. 

EI was miserable, she made it clear for years. I ignored those pleas. It's in our story in three different threads. But I learned she hurt too, I learned that her pain does count, and it does. Also, who is to say my pain is greater? Of course I think so, but EI thinks she hurt just as much and that does count. We are reconciling, we are both working through issues pre-A and post-A. This, to me, is the right way to handle this. Dealing with OUR issues head on, talking, and hashing things out. 

You would see if you have been reading through this thread a progression of working through issues and those AHA moments. Now, you don't see everything, we don't post it all, there are a lot of things that are not posted, we do keep some things to ourselves. 

She was mad at me, she was hurt by me, I did anger her. These are not justifications, they are simply her feelings, and this is our story how it played out. No justifications, just honest to goodness truth. Not always right, not always pretty, but it's our truth. How do you reconcile when one party is suppressing pain, anger and hurt? Or do you suggest they suffer for ever and we live in a one way marriage? One where only my pain counts? I don't want that for me or for her. I want us both to be pain free, happy and healthy.

At 5 months out now, we are doing very well. She owns what she did, she admits fault, and takes the blame, no excuses or justifying. And...I own what I did, I admit fault, too, and take my blame for issues in the marriage pre-A. 

How in the world do you reconcile by saying, you had an affair, your pain is irrelevant, you don't count, your hurt is not important. Hell, she very well may have hurt more than me, how does anyone really know? How do you measure someone else's pain and anger? You can't, no one can do that. Sure, I think my pain was worse, I suffered horribly, I was devastated, in shock, traumatized and on and on, I still hurt like Hell sometimes. 

But, you know what, so does she, and like I said, in this marriage my wife counts, too. Her pain and anger gets a front row also, I want her to deal with it, to put it out there, I want a mentally healthy wife, not some mentally beat-up and broken door mat. I need her to be strong for herself, for me and for our children.


----------



## EI

_Annnnnnnnnnnnd, that post, my friends, is just one of the many, many reasons that I love that man with all of my heart! <3_

~EI


----------



## margrace

hi everyone:

well, if you have followed my story, you know that i have tried as hard as i could. i really gave it 110%. 

you hear the "but" coming, right?

after having a couple of MC sessions that seemed pretty good, i looked at WH's phone tonight. he had called OW on friday, right before coming to meet me for the first session.

so it has never stopped at all. 

i cried and yelled, and i kept asking him why he hadn''t just let me go, why he had let me try so hard for so long. he didn't know. finally he just said, because i'm selfish.

so we agreed that it's over. he packed up and left just now.

i am sitting here really in disbelief that this is what happened, that this is how it ended. he was really still lying! he was only _acting_ like he was trying to work on the marriage. 

these 8 months of supposedly working on R were so hard... why not just go ahead and get out instead of chasing our tails like this for all this time?

i'm a little in shock but i feel great sadness just inches away, and that i'm about to fall in.... i don't want to! can't i just skip over that part?!

i guess he didn't really love me after all? he says that he did. what kind of sense does that make?

not sure i really belong on the R thread any longer  but i wanted to let you know.....


----------



## Acabado

I'm so sorry. I can't start to imagine the pain you are now in.
What a sonofab!tch!, false R. I must be the worse.

I shall pass. Let go. Surrender. Get rid of the burden to try anymore. I do believe he will try to manioulate you again. I'm actually sure of it. Don fall. He's proven he can fake recovery. Beyond repair. No possible redemption.

Be kind with yourself. Be proud of you. You gave all.


----------



## Acabado

margrace said:


> i guess he didn't really love me after all? he says that he did. what kind of sense does that make?


 In his limited, dusfunctional way he understand love. He's a cake eater. Simple. I don't believe hard core cake eaters can change. The only adapt when they are forced (dumped), otherwise they will chose both the wife and the cake. It's hard to comprehend but actually simple.

The Unified Theory of Cake


----------



## happyman64

Very sorry to hear Margrace.

Keep your chin up.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> well, if you have followed my story, you know that i have tried as hard as i could. i really gave it 110%.
> 
> you hear the "but" coming, right?
> 
> after having a couple of MC sessions that seemed pretty good, i looked at WH's phone tonight. he had called OW on friday, right before coming to meet me for the first session.
> 
> so it has never stopped at all.
> 
> i cried and yelled, and i kept asking him why he hadn''t just let me go, why he had let me try so hard for so long. he didn't know. finally he just said, because i'm selfish.
> 
> so we agreed that it's over. he packed up and left just now.
> 
> i am sitting here really in disbelief that this is what happened, that this is how it ended. he was really still lying! he was only _acting_ like he was trying to work on the marriage.
> 
> these 8 months of supposedly working on R were so hard... why not just go ahead and get out instead of chasing our tails like this for all this time?
> 
> i'm a little in shock but i feel great sadness just inches away, and that i'm about to fall in.... i don't want to! can't i just skip over that part?!
> 
> i guess he didn't really love me after all? he says that he did. what kind of sense does that make?
> 
> not sure i really belong on the R thread any longer  but i wanted to let you know.....


It doesn't make sense margrace. I am SO sorry you are going through this. What a truly terrible day for you. You gave it everything you had, you did all you could.

Sorry, but what an a$$. To go for 8 months lying to you and putting you through a false R. 

Margrace hang in there, stay in counseling, you are going to need IC more then ever now to help you through this. Again, I'm so sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace,

I am so sorry.  I know that you are in an unbearable amount of pain, right now. You, actually, are probably still somewhat numb. You won't be able to bypass the pain and anger..... If you try to suppress it, it will eat you alive. You can't go over it, under it, or around it. You *have* to *go through it.* But, I know that you will come out on the other side stronger for it. You have had the resilience, the strength and the courage to attempt a reconciliation for 8 months with someone who never had any intentions, unbeknownst to you, of ending his deception.

margrace, if you need to post your story on another thread, or in a different forum then please do so, but please don't stay away from this thread. We are your TAM family, here, on the Reconciliation thread. We are here for you and want to help you through this in any way that we possibly can. I know your heart is hurting... just know that our hearts are hurting for you, as well.

Eat, relax, sleep, lean on your family and friends, pet a dog (one of my personal favorites <3,) do the things that you love to do but that you've put aside while trying to make your marriage work! It's time to put yourself first! 

Take care of yourself.....
~ ((((Hugs)))) EI


----------



## EI

margrace,

I just sent you a pm.

~EI


----------



## ChangingMe

Oh, margrace, I am near tears for you, and I honestly wish I knew you in person so I could come give you a hug. I am so, so sorry that this has happened, and I hate that you are going to have to go through the pain that you will. 

I am sure it doesn't help at all now, but your name fits you: please know that you are a woman of such grace. I have been in awe of how loving and forgiving you have attempted to be, while at the same time being true to yourself and not rug-sweeping or taking the blame on yourself. You have 100% done all you can do to try and overcome your husband's poor, selfish choices. It's hard to believe, but his choices are his own and do NOT reflect on you at all. I know this, because my actions as a WS had NOTHING to do with how great my husband is. They only reflect my selfishness and sad desire for attention. 

I wish for every happiness for you. You deserve it, you really do. I can imagine that it is impossible to fathom at this point, but hopefully in not too long, you will find yourself in a much better place and with a man that will show you the love and respect you deserve. 

(And I am with EI, please don't stop posting here.)


----------



## moxy

Margrace, your H's horrible behavior doesn't mean he didn't love you, it just means he's a deeply flawed human being with a broken moral compass. Your love is gold, his is brass. He could choose to fix his damage, but instead, he's choosing to deceive you. He's selfish. You deserve better. don't be pinned down by his actions; they don't mean you are not worthy of love nor do they mean what you had wasn't real; it just means you're a woman with higher standards and better behavior. It will hurt for a long time, but you'll be okay once the limbo is passed. Be kind and indulgent to yourself. Now is the time for a spa day and a shopping trip and whatever entertainment distracts you from the ache you feel. Hang in there.


----------



## cpacan

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> well, if you have followed my story, you know that i have tried as hard as i could. i really gave it 110%.
> 
> you hear the "but" coming, right?
> 
> after having a couple of MC sessions that seemed pretty good, i looked at WH's phone tonight. he had called OW on friday, right before coming to meet me for the first session.
> 
> so it has never stopped at all.
> 
> i cried and yelled, and i kept asking him why he hadn''t just let me go, why he had let me try so hard for so long. he didn't know. finally he just said, because i'm selfish.
> 
> so we agreed that it's over. he packed up and left just now.
> 
> i am sitting here really in disbelief that this is what happened, that this is how it ended. he was really still lying! he was only _acting_ like he was trying to work on the marriage.
> 
> these 8 months of supposedly working on R were so hard... why not just go ahead and get out instead of chasing our tails like this for all this time?
> 
> i'm a little in shock but i feel great sadness just inches away, and that i'm about to fall in.... i don't want to! can't i just skip over that part?!
> 
> i guess he didn't really love me after all? he says that he did. what kind of sense does that make?
> 
> not sure i really belong on the R thread any longer  but i wanted to let you know.....


Margrace; you are experiencing one of my worst fears, one that I work hard to control. The fear of reliving it all over again.

I believe though, that the journey through chok, anger and negotiations has made you strong enough to handle this, and you will get through even stronger. Try to take comfort in that.

You deserve better and have just taken the first step on next phase of your life journey - be strong, take care and do something good for yourself.


----------



## calvin

Very sorry marg,he does'nt deserve you.
What he did was terrible,let him go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

thank you, everyone, for the support and the hugs and the words of wisdom. thank you for saying that i can still post here even outside of R 

i need all that right now because i have really lost my bearings. i know how to work for something and try hard and perservere and all that... but i don't know how to internalize this kind of ending, an ending that doesn't really add up.

why, why did we do all this so-called R work? somehow my gut tells me that he didn't really love me (enough) but that was just too hard for him to tell me. 

you might remember that about a month ago, i asked him to leave because he was still lying to me, and he did leave (for a couple of nights). starting MC was part of the deal in terms of his coming back. he was never thrilled about MC... maybe i just talked him into it? 

most of his answers are "i don't know." he did say that, during the time when he was thrown out, he had concluded in his mind that it was all over, and he thinks that once he quit, he could never really un-quit again.

plus, he says that he doesn't really believe that he can change, or "re-invent" himself, as he calls it. he refers back to the pre-A marriage and says, see? things were over a long time ago so it's all hollow now. 

that kind of brings me back to, so why did you let me work so hard for the past 8 months? did you not see what i was doing?

i don't know, he says. yes, you did so much, and i saw it, he says. i let you do it because i thought i meant what i said. i let you do it because i'm selfish.

i still think that the love must have been missing or not enough.... because if you love someone, you seek out those opportunities and you take them and make the most of them -- you don't say, oh, i thought we were done already and now i can't un-quit.

it hurts me to think that he didn't love me (enough) but i will have to accept it if it's true.

i am furious with myself for:

1) second-guessing myself, e.g., i screwed this all up! maybe i shouldn't have asked him to leave that first time. maybe i should have been way more accepting of whatever efforts he could make the whole time.

2) missing him, wanting to help him even now (omg that makes me sick!)

what is wrong with me?

i do have anger too, and i feel it for moments but it slips away, and i go back to feeling heartbroken, sad, alone, etc.

he seems to be someone who doesn't know much about himself and does not want to.


----------



## cpacan

Acabado said:


> Now a 2x4 for you. You DID know how truly important it was for her. You decided (choice, not mistake) it was not important to YOU. You decided she had to resign herself to that "fate". Not only that, you toke her for granted. You not in a million years believed she had "the balls" to fight her fate this way. You were comfortable with the things exactly how they were. You felt entitled to your comfort/happiness without giving back (total wayward thinking process, BTW) and adressing her claims.
> Man, if you are to learn from this you also need to find the truth. And you are lying yourself with the cause of your inaction. You can't be honest with her without being honest with yourself first. You knew. Own it.
> 
> Your wife is rightfully angry. And I have the same questions she surely has: Why now? If cheating on you, losing her reputation, betraying her own values (because for now you are the only guilty part here, right?) was what iwas needed to make you wake up she could cheat on you years and years ago.
> And.. why in the workd she has to believe your determination to change is going to last past a few months after you forget the affair?


Acabado; I usually agree with you and I have dwelled with this post for some time - now I can't resist anymore. I liked your post as a guided direction for Bobca, but I disagree with your implied conclusion.

IMO: Nothing(!) ever justifies hurting other people in any form. Period. When you find yourself in a non-satisfactory situation, you have three options: Accept the situation and live with it, change the situation to something acceptable, or you may remove yourself from the situation.

This goes for bobca when he finds out that his wife cheated on him. He can change himself and try to meet mrs. bobkas needs, and he can state what he needs from her. Other than that he must accept the situation or walk away from it instead of hurting her.

The same goes for Mrs. bobca. *Even if bobca neglected her on purpose*, it doesn't justify her in hurting him. Try to change it, if she doesn't succeed; accept it or walk away.

I think it is wrong to connect these situations, you must take responsibility for them one by one. The talk about what the reason for this and that is, and the road leading to.... whatever.... It's a neverending story: I did this because you did that. What? I did that because you did this. Well, I did this because... and on and on and on.... it leads to nowhere.

I write this because it seems, from what you write, that bobca clearly must expect his wife to cheat if he choose to neglect her while knowing better than that. If I misread you, I apologize in advance. But anyway, I made my point


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> thank you, everyone, for the support and the hugs and the words of wisdom. thank you for saying that i can still post here even outside of R
> 
> i need all that right now because i have really lost my bearings. i know how to work for something and try hard and perservere and all that... but i don't know how to internalize this kind of ending, an ending that doesn't really add up.
> 
> why, why did we do all this so-called R work? somehow my gut tells me that he didn't really love me (enough) but that was just too hard for him to tell me.
> 
> you might remember that about a month ago, i asked him to leave because he was still lying to me, and he did leave (for a couple of nights). starting MC was part of the deal in terms of his coming back. he was never thrilled about MC... maybe i just talked him into it?
> 
> most of his answers are "i don't know." he did say that, during the time when he was thrown out, he had concluded in his mind that it was all over, and he thinks that once he quit, he could never really un-quit again.
> 
> plus, he says that he doesn't really believe that he can change, or "re-invent" himself, as he calls it. he refers back to the pre-A marriage and says, see? things were over a long time ago so it's all hollow now.
> 
> that kind of brings me back to, so why did you let me work so hard for the past 8 months? did you not see what i was doing?
> 
> i don't know, he says. yes, you did so much, and i saw it, he says. i let you do it because i thought i meant what i said. i let you do it because i'm selfish.
> 
> i still think that the love must have been missing or not enough.... because if you love someone, you seek out those opportunities and you take them and make the most of them -- you don't say, oh, i thought we were done already and now i can't un-quit.
> 
> it hurts me to think that he didn't love me (enough) but i will have to accept it if it's true.
> 
> i am furious with myself for:
> 
> 1) second-guessing myself, e.g., i screwed this all up! maybe i shouldn't have asked him to leave that first time. maybe i should have been way more accepting of whatever efforts he could make the whole time.
> 
> 2) missing him, wanting to help him even now (omg that makes me sick!)
> 
> what is wrong with me?
> 
> i do have anger too, and i feel it for moments but it slips away, and i go back to feeling heartbroken, sad, alone, etc.
> 
> he seems to be someone who doesn't know much about himself and does not want to.


There is nothing wrong with you margrace, you still love him, that hasn't changed, yet. Sure you are going to second guess yourself, it's part of your journey now. But YOU shouldn't, you didn't screw up margrace, HE DID THAT! 

You both agreed to R. But...HE, without you knowing, DID NOT commit to that, he intentionally lied and deceived you, again. There is nothing more you could have done. You could have not kicked him out, let him stay gone longer, let him back home sooner, you could have filed for a seperation and on and on...don't beat yoursefl up over this. YOU handled it the best way YOU knew how, you tried to talk, you started counseling, that's it, you gave all you have to give towards this R.

HE failed this R, NOT YOU!

Does he love you? All I can say here is that, whatever he feels, it wasn't enough to stay committed. So, if he does love you, that's NOT the kind of love you need. If he doesn't love you, then he doesn't, not a thing you can do about that.

I am certain you will move on and find happiness again, You deserve better Margrace, you deserve happiness. 

This will all be over soon enough, like EI said though, you have to go through it not around it. Hang in there and take care of you. Do some things for yourself now. Lean on family, on us, we are here, not going anywhere, use this thread, PM us, and get to IC ASAP.

take care,


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> i guess he didn't really love me after all? he says that he did. what kind of sense does that make?QUOTE]
> 
> I'm SO sorry to hear this. And he obviously didn't try very hard to hide it from you if you could just pick up his phone and see the call.
> 
> I will say that he DID love you, and may still love you. Love doesn't go away that easily, and it's available on many levels. But obviously, he didn't love you enough to work this out. I cannot tell you how sorry I am that this happened.
> 
> God bless you. Turn to God, if He's in your life. He will comfort you.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Acabado said:


> bobka, you wife sounds like a couple of female waywards I know: she mistook p) honesty with integrity, She believe aht bby giving you the dady to day of her cheating she was preserving... something. She was wrong. One day, if not already, she will find out. And it will hit her hard. Yes, cheating most times imply secrecy, deceit. But adultery don't I remember she's religious). She still doesn't realize that in order to betray her husband she had to betray herself first. Her values. It doesn't changue for the fact she told you practicaly in advance. She lost herself and still need to find herself again.
> The few times I know it happened is was with women who believed themselves (beceuase they were) people with a huge deal of integrity, women of principles. Being open abut the cheating is the way the deal with it.
> 
> A few other times it happens the waywayrd is caught and things get out in the open. They even feel some relief, so they keep cheating only this time whith less guilt and the stress of the hiding. Those rarely snap out of tghe fog to come back to reality.


I can't say that I disagree with anything you say here - integrity and honesty are 2 different things, and you're right, she mistook one for the other. She will have more of an awakening as time goes on, as she sees that what she did was not justifiable. But that will not solve any problems. I have already forgiven her to a great extent. 

What I need now is to reassure her that things will not go back to how they were before. If I cannot meet my end of the bargain, who knows what she will do or where she will turn?

I understand I cannot live in fear of her going out "looking for happiness anyway she can find it" forever. Real changes need to take place, both for her and for me. 

Thanks for your comments.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Acabado said:


> Now a 2x4 for you. You DID know how truly important it was for her. You decided (choice, not mistake) it was not important to YOU. You decided she had to resign herself to that "fate". Not only that, you toke her for granted. You not in a million years believed she had "the balls" to fight her fate this way. You were comfortable with the things exactly how they were. You felt entitled to your comfort/happiness without giving back (total wayward thinking process, BTW) and adressing her claims.
> 
> I agree that my actions (or lack of) were a choice. This was one of the first things our MC brought up.
> 
> Man, if you are to learn from this you also need to find the truth. And you are lying yourself with the cause of your inaction. You can't be honest with her without being honest with yourself first. You knew. Own it.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by the statement that "I'm lying to myself." I feel that I've completely owned my shortcomings here. Help me to understand...
> 
> Your wife is rightfully angry. And I have the same questions she surely has: Why now? If cheating on you, losing her reputation, betraying her own values (because for now you are the only guilty part here, right?) was what iwas needed to make you wake up she could cheat on you years and years ago.
> And.. why in the world she has to believe your determination to change is going to last past a few months after you forget the affair?
> 
> She's going to have to believe that. There's no other option. If I fail, she will have all the same options she had before. And I won't forget the affair.
> 
> I know fianaces are not exactly fine at home. marriagebuilders has tons of info for free in their website. Then 2, 3 books, very practical, with workshops can help you too. Many people find themselves with no money and the need to build the marriage anyway. It can be done even wityhout MC.
> 
> Fortunately, MC is a part of our program right now. Our first session went well. I had seen our counselor prior to us going to him together, and that's where he suggested that my choices are what got me, us, here.
> 
> I hope things start to change for the better in your family bobka. I know you are not very vocal now because you sitch is not exactly the scenario TAM would like for you. I keep sending positove thoughts you and your wife's way.


I can't worry anymore about how TAM on the whole feels about my situation. You guys are TAM to me, and you all understand. I'm here for the fellowship and for the suggestions and comments.


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> There is nothing wrong with you margrace, you still love him, that hasn't changed, yet. Sure you are going to second guess yourself, it's part of your journey now. But YOU shouldn't, you didn't screw up margrace, HE DID THAT!
> 
> You both agreed to R. But...HE, without you knowing, DID NOT commit to that, he intentionally lied and deceived you, again. There is nothing more you could have done. You could have not kicked him out, let him stay gone longer, let him back home sooner, you could have filed for a seperation and on and on...don't beat yoursefl up over this. YOU handled it the best way YOU knew how, you tried to talk, you started counseling, that's it, you gave all you have to give towards this R.
> 
> HE failed this R, NOT YOU!
> 
> Does he love you? All I can say here is that, whatever he feels, it wasn't enough to stay committed. So, if he does love you, that's NOT the kind of love you need. If he doesn't love you, then he doesn't, not a thing you can do about that.
> 
> I am certain you will move on and find happiness again, You deserve better Margrace, you deserve happiness.
> 
> This will all be over soon enough, like EI said though, you have to go through it not around it. Hang in there and take care of you. Do some things for yourself now. Lean on family, on us, we are here, not going anywhere, use this thread, PM us, and get to IC ASAP.
> 
> take care,


thank you my friend. i recognize the truth in what you are saying.... i just can't feel it. can only cry.

i know you're right that, although he gave every appearance of being all in with me, in fact, he was hedging his bets. he had one foot out the door the whole time.... i just didn't see that foot. that is a set-up to fail, of course. i know you're right, he did that, not me.

again, it makes me think that he was never fully committed to R to begin with -- i mean fully committed as in, however hard this is, i will make it work while forsaking all others. i think that was too much for him to stomach, or to risk, or something. 

like, if it had been faster and easier, fine -- but if it is a painful, difficult, and slow process (which it is), then he wanted to have his someone else to make his pain go away.

how come i can know all this and still not let go? why isn't it easier when it's all so clear? it's so messed up


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> how come i can know all this and still not let go? why isn't it easier when it's all so clear? it's so messed up


If you love him, this is why you can't just "let go." You invested a lot in your marriage, and even more in your attempt at R. You risked, and now it appears that you lost. But you didn't lose, haven't lost, yourself. 

It's so easy to say to you "stay strong", but so hard to do that. Think of time as your friend, and the more of it that passes, the further you will be from your pain. Just feel what you need to feel, and know that it won't feel like this forever.


----------



## margrace

bobka said:


> If you love him, this is why you can't just "let go." You invested a lot in your marriage, and even more in your attempt at R. You risked, and now it appears that you lost. But you didn't lose, haven't lost, yourself.
> 
> It's so easy to say to you "stay strong", but so hard to do that. Think of time as your friend, and the more of it that passes, the further you will be from your pain. Just feel what you need to feel, and know that it won't feel like this forever.


thank you bobka. i think you're right about time passing. i wish it could go a little faster....


----------



## MattMatt

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> well, if you have followed my story, you know that i have tried as hard as i could. i really gave it 110%.
> 
> you hear the "but" coming, right?
> 
> after having a couple of MC sessions that seemed pretty good, i looked at WH's phone tonight. he had called OW on friday, right before coming to meet me for the first session.
> 
> so it has never stopped at all.
> 
> i cried and yelled, and i kept asking him why he hadn''t just let me go, why he had let me try so hard for so long. he didn't know. finally he just said, because i'm selfish.
> 
> so we agreed that it's over. he packed up and left just now.
> 
> i am sitting here really in disbelief that this is what happened, that this is how it ended. he was really still lying! he was only _acting_ like he was trying to work on the marriage.
> 
> these 8 months of supposedly working on R were so hard... why not just go ahead and get out instead of chasing our tails like this for all this time?
> 
> i'm a little in shock but i feel great sadness just inches away, and that i'm about to fall in.... i don't want to! can't i just skip over that part?!
> 
> i guess he didn't really love me after all? he says that he did. what kind of sense does that make?
> 
> not sure i really belong on the R thread any longer  but i wanted to let you know.....


Drat. We are here for you, OK?:smthumbup:


----------



## Acabado

cpacan said:


> I liked your post as a guided direction for Bobca, but I disagree with your implied conclusion.
> 
> I think it is wrong to connect these situations, you must take responsibility for them one by one. The talk about what the reason for this and that is, and the road leading to.... whatever.... It's a neverending story: I did this because you did that. What? I did that because you did this. Well, I did this because... and on and on and on.... it leads to nowhere.
> 
> I write this because it seems, from what you write, that bobca clearly must expect his wife to cheat if he choose to neglect her while knowing better than that. If I misread you, I apologize in advance. But anyway, I made my point


If somehow I implied bobka have an inch of blame or some kind of control of her wife's decision to cheat I apologize. No excuses but my bad use of language. Not what I meant. 
If from my post It seems I connect somehow, cheating as something inevitable, predictable after being unhappy, neglected or whatever, i simply deny it. The gap between his wife personal situation (no matter who's to blame) and the choice to cheat is a moral failure of his wife part. Period. No excuses. No explanations. Nobody but her is her master.
bobkca can't reconcile with a wife who don't accept her responsability of her own actions fully. bobka assumed his wife would never cheat and *he was right to expect it*. That's why when I wrote her wife had the "balls" to cheat on him I put it in quotes, not becuase his wife have not balls indeed. It's sarcasm.
This kind of asumming we have to expect to be cheated on because we are not-good/horrible partners I leave it to "popular" wisdom, magazines and bad MCs. I recetly wrote jsut after DDay I believed myself an horrible husband, exagerated my failures as a husband. Still I spent nanoseconds blaming myself for her grown up decisions.


*It's a reconciliation thread*. bobka claims to be reconciling. He must own his own sh1t then. That was my 2x4. Not to assign blame or to imply he somehow was in control of his wife decisions or moral compass. That post followed another one maybe you can read.

What follow then is a very common confusion here. Imagine this scenario.
bobka's wife see the light, rejects her own actions, is ashamed of her failure, first to her own values, to God, to her word given to husband. She silently shocks her head in disbelief about how the hell she arrived there. She's even empathetic to his husband pain. She tries to make amends, somehow, to comfort him to help him with his pain.
It seems then ext step we want to hear here is the "snotting, crying, sobbing, im SO sorry i hurt you, mascara dripping off of her chin, _I will do whatever it takes, no matter the time it takes to repair the marriage_". The huge displayal of emotions, the proactiveness, the setting up appointments with counselors, purchasing books on how to repair things after infidelity... the whole 9 yards of what "remorse" we assume looks like. The putting herself in shape for him, the imediate HB...

Well.. it all depends. In bobka's case... not gonna happen.
First, I'd be very wary of this attitude. I'd believe it false. I prefer continued actions, authenticity and emotional honesty.
because indeed she was very miserable in this marriage, for years and years. I'm not going to write here why. Bobka already did, I take his words at face value. I don't believe it's BS's fog. Suffice to say if I was his wife I'd agree to reconcile very reluctantly. I'd wait for actions rather than words. Too many promises broken already.

BS are always blinsided for the cheating but not always about the state of the marriage or our spuses misery. We tell ourselves, why didn't she talk to me? why didn't she demanded MC? well... bobcka's wife already did it! She complained, pushed, complained again. For years. Then she basically used the anger to cheat while broadcasted the cheating as a way to safe face in front of the mirror.

Remorse doesn't equate to reconciling the marriage. Waywards can decide too much damage was done or express no interest to stay married and still be remorseful. It's possible. I've seen it.

is bobka's wife really remorseful? I suspect not. I already told him. It seems she's starting to come out of the rationalition fog thoug, what is very common. The learning curve. He decided to reconcile the marriage with what he has, and I will support him. So I will advice him to own his stuff.


----------



## Acabado

bobka


> I'm not sure what you mean by the statement that "I'm lying to myself." I feel that I've completely owned my shortcomings here. Help me to understand...


Maybe I explained myself wrong. I was not talking about owning the rest of your shortcomings but, specifically again, owning your inaction, your dissmisal of her claims as something you *chose* out of selfishness, not something you "don't know why you did", as you stated in the post which prompted my response.


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> bobka
> Maybe I explained myself wrong. I was not talking about owning the rest of your shortcomings but,* specifically again, owning your inaction, your dismissal of her claims as something you chose out of selfishness, not something you "don't know why you did",* as you stated in the post which prompted my response.


I knew what Acabado meant, bobka. Because you had already stated, earlier in the same comment, that your wife had told you that she needed more emotional and physical intimacy.... and the MC had, as well. You had chosen to dismiss it for a variety of stated reasons... but, primarily because "you" thought everything was so good.

You *know* that I'm not picking on you, bobka,.... because EI doesn't pick on people. I want everyone to be happy!  Besides, I know that your greatest desire is to reconcile your marriage and that you are more than willing to "own" your negative contributions to the poor state it was in, prior to your wife engaging in an inappropriate relationship with another man. I just hope and pray that Mrs. bobka "owns" her choices, as well. It takes two people, who are 100% commited to reconciliation, and for all of the right reasons, for there to be any hope of a happier, healthier marriage in the future. 

I wish you all the best,
~EI


----------



## cpacan

I guess we all agree then... everybody own their own sh!t - while not expecting to be cheated on


----------



## ChangingMe

Just a little check-in: Good night last night, and good day today. After posting last night, DD and I got in the hot tub and talked for quite a while, and it was a nice mix of calmly processing how we were feeling & issues with the A, but also just discussing other things going on in our lives. We had a really good night, and I'll leave it at that. 

Today has been good too. Lots of texts, emails, and even a phone call between us today. Optimistically looking forward to another good evening tonight. 

I know we'll hit another rough patch, but I'm so appreciative of the good days when they come.

Hope all of you have a great evening.

Wanted to add that one of my texts today was me griping about my phone like I normally do, because it keeps having issues. DD said we'd look into getting me a new phone soon. Not long after I got home this evening, my phone started ringing, so I went to my purse to answer it. There was a brand new phone ringing, with DD calling me from the other room. He had actually bought me a new phone this morning, before I sent that text, and surprised me with it tonight. Though I am excited to have a newer, fancier phone, I am more grateful just that he did this for me as a surprise and to be nice. I really, really do love this man. I am so thankful that he is still with me.


----------



## Acabado

Glad to hear this CM. This damm rollercoaster seem often is going to kill us but there's then another day.
Hope you guys manage to find a way to ride the waves.


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> Just a little check-in: Good night last night, and good day today. After posting last night, DD and I got in the hot tub and talked for quite a while, and it was a nice mix of calmly processing how we were feeling & issues with the A, but also just discussing other things going on in our lives. We had a really good night, and I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Today has been good too. Lots of texts, emails, and even a phone call between us today. Optimistically looking forward to another good evening tonight.
> 
> I know we'll hit another rough patch, but I'm so appreciative of the good days when they come.
> 
> Hope all of you have a great evening.
> 
> Wanted to add that one of my texts today was me griping about my phone like I normally do, because it keeps having issues. DD said we'd look into getting me a new phone soon. Not long after I got home this evening, my phone started ringing, so I went to my purse to answer it. There was a brand new phone ringing, with DD calling me from the other room. He had actually bought me a new phone this morning, before I sent that text, and surprised me with it tonight. Though I am excited to have a newer, fancier phone, I am more grateful just that he did this for me as a surprise and to be nice. I really, really do love this man. I am so thankful that he is still with me.


Should of asked this a long time ago but what does DD stand for?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

DD is DevistatedDad, ChangingMe's husband. He has his own thread.


----------



## CantSitStill

oh ok thank you, kept thinking dear daughter didn't fit right, didn't know her hubby was on TAM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

CantSitStill said:


> oh ok thank you, kept thinking dear daughter didn't fit right, didn't know her hubby was on TAM
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry about that, CSS, I should type it out sometimes, but it's long and misspelled . 

Yes, my husband joined and posted before I did. He in fact invited me here. This is his thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/57247-she-cheated-i-hate-my-life.html Though I do hate posting it, because it is so shameful to read about what I've done. 

I was just reading yours and Calvin's thread, and I see a lot of similarities in our husbands and their ups & downs. Here's hoping that the new counselor tomorrow is helpful, and that Calvin finds some peace, and the two of you can continue working your R.


----------



## WyshIknew

Quick question for Empty Inside, hope you don't mind answering it.
I have'nt kept up with your posts recently and things seem to move quickly on TAM so I've missed a lot.

Early on in your reconciliation with Betrayed and certainly up to a month or two into R you wouldn't hear a bad word about the OM in your affair. Have you now changed your opinion of him?


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> Wanted to add that one of my texts today was me griping about my phone like I normally do, because it keeps having issues. DD said we'd look into getting me a new phone soon. Not long after I got home this evening, my phone started ringing, so I went to my purse to answer it. There was a brand new phone ringing, with DD calling me from the other room. He had actually bought me a new phone this morning, before I sent that text, and surprised me with it tonight. Though I am excited to have a newer, fancier phone, I am more grateful just that he did this for me as a surprise and to be nice. I really, really do love this man. I am so thankful that he is still with me.


That really touches my heart and says a whole lot about DD's love for you. He's hurting so much, but he does love you.


----------



## EI

Well, alright then, only the easy questions for EI, right???  I know, I put myself "out there" on this thread all of the time with my radical honesty. I know that my brand of honesty isn't what some of you want to read/hear, but I do think that it's understood that when I answer your questions I'm not answering them with the answers that I am "supposed" to give, but with "my honesty" as I truly think/feel/see it. That's all I have.



cpacan said:


> EI, this was a very powerfull post! It hit right home with me in relation to some troublesome thoughts I struggle a great deal with myself.
> 
> I was one of those at TAM who roasted you in your initial thread. I haven't posted a lot on you and B1's current thread, but I have followed your story on a daily basis. I am very impressed with your progress in your relationship, almost impossible in just 5 months, and I appreciate the fact that you post your story here at TAM a lot.
> 
> I remember calling you out on the wide use of "..buts" - this goes for both you and B1. So it makes me happy to read, that you have worked intensely with this although discarted initially. It had a very strong impact on me when you identified the anger and resentment hidden behind the "buts" - I actually had trouble coUncentrating at work that day
> 
> I also liked Acabados expression "unwalk the walk of rationalizations" very much, because I think it's key to understanding the risk of repeting the infidelity.
> 
> *So; I would like to ask you, if you believe there could be yet another layer on your onion? You say you have forgiven B1 and that you have let your anger go. What if he does something similar to you again (I know both of you will say it won't happen, but then make it a hypothetical question)? You said that you were left with only bad choices and that you resented him for this. So now you are not mad at him, but what if the situation reoccurs? Have you unlearned this bad choice as a solution? You know the option is there, you know it fixed a lot of troubles short term? What's to prevent it from happening again?
> *
> I ask this, not to bash you, but to get a better understanding of my own sh***y situation, so I hope you would give a thought or two.


cpacan

That's a very valid question... I've spent a good part of this last week trying to answer it for myself so that I could answer it, here, for you. I *have* forgiven B1. And, when I posted last week about waking up one morning and not feeling that _sick feeling in my soul waiting to erupt,_ I really meant it. That horrific feeling has not returned. That beast of bitterness and anger has been conquered. It took a lot of "work" from, both, B1 and myself to get to the bottom of that... but, we did it. I'm really proud of us for that. 

A very simple answer to your questions _"What if he does something similar to you again?" "Have you unlearned this bad choice as a solution? and, "What's to prevent it from happening again?"_ would be to say that hindsight is 20/20.... but it's a lot more complicated than that. We have learned that one very important factor in B1's inability to overcome his depression and lack of sex drive was due to his low Testosterone levels that are, now, being successfully treated. That, along with IC and MC, has made such a huge difference in B1 that the likelihood of him withdrawing _to the degree_ that he has in the past is not very great. I think I have learned a great deal about myself in these last 5 months.... and I'm learning more, every day. So, as far as "unlearning" this bad choice as a solution, I think that this is what I've concluded. Right or wrong, good or bad, I am the kind of woman who needs to be validated by others. I've always been this way. I know, I know, confidence, self-esteem, happiness and... all of that.... is supposed to come from within, and I am working on that, but I'm not there, yet. And, last year, I didn't begin to have the tools within myself to overcome the zero self-confidence, zero self-esteem and zero happiness that I was feeling. I am so amazed that B1 and I are where we are, now, in our reconciliation and in our lives. It is so far removed from where we were less than 6 months ago. I give B1 so much credit for this. For a man who had become so defeated by life that he had lost any and all motivation and drive to seek something even as simple as a little happiness, it is beyond my comprehension how he found the strength to fight for us at a time when even the strongest man on Earth would have been brought to his knees (discovering his wife's infidelity.) If B1 had never changed, had remained detached, cold, distant, withdrawn, and aloof, rather than becoming a totally changed man, in practically an instant, I would like to say that I would not have turned to someone else for my validation.... to help fill the void of the emptiness that I felt inside. I wish that I had found the coping skills within myself to seek another way to ease my pain and emptiness. But, I didn't. To be honest, I was at such a low point, I didn't see another way. It sounds awful... because it is awful. I can't make it not awful. I wish that I didn't need anyone else to make me feel confident, valuable, wanted, and needed, but I did... and to a much lesser extent I still do. I am so much stronger, now, but B1's love has given me this strength. The truth is, I do want and need someone in my life, by my side, loving me, supporting me, needing me, desiring me. It's what I "signed up for" when I got married. Knowing what I know now, and what I didn't know then, I can see that no matter how "dead" you think your marriage is... it isn't "dead" until the ink on the divorce papers is dry.... and then, it still may not be dead for some. In hindsight, the destruction to the ones that I love, as a result of my affair, looks like the path where a tornado cut through. You know what it used to look like, but what you see, now, looks nothing like it did before. That, alone, is enough to prevent me from ever doing such a purely selfish thing again in my life. I can say that now. I could not say that last year.

In conclusion, I don't think B1 will ever withdraw to the extent that he had before. I have learned that infidelity was a disastrous temporary fix for something that needed a very different long term solution, and the perceived gains was not worth the actual losses. And, most of all, B1 has a choice... he can go on with his life with or without me. I have to live with myself everyday for the rest of my life. What's to prevent it from happening again? Well, I've come this far... I am beginning to figure out who "I" really am for the first time in my life. Not who my Mom expected me to be... and not based on what B1 needs or doesn't need from me. At the end of the day, I can only control myself and my choices. I get to pick who I want to be. I want to be someone really good! I'm choosing to build on my naturally positive attributes; kindness, compassion, service, etc., and I am trying to better understand my negative ones so that I can leave them behind. I'm a work in progress.

I hope this answers your question and I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Thank you for asking. It helped me dig through a few more layers. 

******************************************
This is a loaded question, isn't it? Once again, I'm going to give you "my honesty." 



WyshIknew said:


> Quick question for Empty Inside, hope you don't mind answering it.
> I have'nt kept up with your posts recently and things seem to move quickly on TAM so I've missed a lot.
> 
> *Early on in your reconciliation with Betrayed and certainly up to a month or two into R you wouldn't hear a bad word about the OM in your affair. Have you now changed your opinion of him?*


I was the pursuer in the relationship with the xOM. He was someone that I had had a brief relationship with when I was 16. And, although, he and I had not spoken in over 30 years, when I contacted him on Facebook, the chemistry that we had all of those years before was still very evident. Although he was single, he knew that I was married and he did not make any attempts to lead the conversation in the direction of an affair. But, I was relentless and I kept leading the conversation back to a "trip down Memory Lane." I really can't stress enough how much he attempted to discourage me from what I was so obviously trying to do. He didn't give me his phone number or his address or the location of his job. But, I'm not unintelligent... it was all in the phone book, I knew what I wanted and I didn't stop until I got it. We chatted on FB for a couple of weeks and when I suggested that we "meet" he declined. I'm not going to tell you that he wasn't "enjoying" the attention..... because I wasn't chatting on FB and talking to him, on the phone (I was calling him... he wasn't calling me) all by myself... he was chatting and talking back. Like me, he was lonely and vulnerable.


Although he had declined my suggestion that we meet, as he "didn't think that it was a very good idea," I decided to show up, unannounced, at his front door one evening. He didn't even know that I knew where he lived. To be honest, I really didn't know if he was going to let me in or call the police. Now, I am not going to share all of the graphic details of the next 15 months. But, I will say that I continued to be the driving force in the relationship for the first several months..... there was a D-Day #1 after the first two months..... NC for several weeks, an attempted reconciliation with B1 that never got beyond a very minimal amount of rug-sweeping, and then I contacted the xOM again and took the relationship underground. I knew that the xOM was going to be even more reluctant this time around as he was NEVER okay with the fact that I was married so I simplified things for him (for myself, really.) I told him that B1 and I were legally separated, but living under the same roof. In truth, B1 and I had met the qualifications for legal separation in our state. You can be legally separated while living under the same roof as long as you are not sleeping together in the same bed/room and have not had sex for a minimum of 60 days. I did tell B1 that I wanted a divorce... although, he and I, both, acknowledged that it would be at least two years before we could actually finalize it. We told the children, as well. But, in our typical fashion.... B1 and I had resumed our normal life of co-existing in the same house, talking only about our children and our bills, but nothing else and not sleeping together or in the same room. That was late summer last year and after that B1 and I neither talked about divorce or our marriage. 

Although, the xOM was still reluctant to get involved with me, again, he seemed to become more at ease about it when he thought that B1 and I were legally separated and "openly" living separate lives. He knew that it was going to take a while before I could get a divorce, and I was truly planning to get one, I was just no longer discussing any of this with B1. The xOM began to let his guard down, somewhat, and began introducing me to his parents, children, friends, and neighbors. At this point we began going places in public... out to lunch, dinner, the grocery, errands..... For the first time he began telling people, including his children, that he was "seeing someone." Things began to get complicated for me when he started wanting to see me more than I could realistically get away. Of course, having children of my own, although they are grown, provided me with plenty of excuses to not always be available. I'm sure he was beginning to feel that something was amiss when I could never see him on the weekends. He began to want me to be with him and his children more often. They didn't live with him but he had them every weekend. He had begun to take more of the driver's seat. But, at times, it would seem like we would take one step forward and two steps backwards. We'd get very close, start making plans, etc... then, he'd pull back a little. He was always afraid that things would end badly.... because "they always do." 

B1 was so detached from me that I had no belief that he cared, at all, what I was doing. Although, I always said that I was "going out with a friend," my IC and I, both, believed that he "had" to know what was going on..... especially, after D-Day # 1 last year. Even, now, B1 will tell you that my IC has told him that he thought that B1 must have known all along. But, he didn't. It was just that B1 was oblivious to me, at the time. It wasn't hard for me to convince the xOM that B1 didn't care, because I didn't think he did. There is NO WAY that the xOM would have stayed involved or gotten involved with me the 2nd time around last summer unless I had totally convinced him that B1 and I were completely finished and openly living separate lives, just in the same house for financial reasons. And, it was all true... it's just that B1 didn't know it. On D-Day # 2, B1's testosterone injections had begun to kick-in and so had his "spidey senses." 

About 1 1/2 weeks before D-Day #2, I was at the xOM's house and he became kind of serious. He was weepy... he said that 'he was stuck, he could not go forward and he could not go backward.' I asked him what he meant. He said, "I can't go forward with you, you're married. But, 'I can't go backward, now, either, it's too late, I'm already here.' D-Day # 2 came eleven days later when B1 decided to check the cell phone bill.... he found one number over and over and over again. He called it and a man answered... He asked for the name of the person whose name I had "that" number listed under on our cell phone directory. The xOM said "wrong number." But, he knew that the man calling him from my home phone number must have been B1. And, at that moment the xOM realized that, contrary to what I had said, my husband did "care" enough about me to find out who I was talking to and who I was spending so much time with. We did talk a few more times over the next few weeks. It was all me doing the "calling." I did talk to him 1 more time after my original thread on TAM. It was painful and it was difficult for both of us. He felt like he had been mislead and he had.... not about the fact that B1 and I were not sleeping together, because we weren't, not about my feelings for him, at the time, not about my intentions to divorce B1 within the next year or so.... but, about B1's understanding of the situation.... and that is exactly what the xOM had always feared. He told me that we could not see one another, for the time being, and maybe not ever... he said that he would never be able to face my children and that he didn't think he could face himself. Still, when I told him that B1 and I were going to give reconciliation one more real try he seemed somewhat stunned and shocked. I sent the NC letter a few days later and he has NOT contacted me since. I knew that he wouldn't.

So, when I _'wouldn't hear a bad word about the xOM' _in my earlier posts when he was still being discussed, it was because I knew much more about my level of deception with him than I was willing to admit, at the time, even to myself, much less to B1 or to TAM.

Was it okay for the xOM to have an affair with a woman who he knew was married? No, of course not. But, I did everything that I could to seduce him and to encourage him to lower his boundaries. I was vulnerable and lonely and so was he.... But, considering all things, if I have a poor opinion of anyone for the devastation that my selfishness caused it would have to be me.

I know that this was lengthy and I hope that it doesn't trigger the Hell out of B1 or anyone else, but I'm practicing total honesty these days and trying to rebuild the broken "pieces" of myself one truth at a time.

Take Care,
~EI


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## daisygirl 41

^^^^^ WOW Ei I am in total awe of your honesty. You know that post is going to be scrutinised by some now don't you? But wow! Well done you for being so absolutely honest. You shared A LOT there! Hope B1 is ok
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew

Thanks for that EI it was something I had wondered about.
Hopefully this is something that you and B1 have covered at length in your talks so it won't be a fresh trigger for him.

I almost wish I hadn't asked now. But I can certainly see why you were protective of him. He was largely blameless. Hopefully he has recovered from this as well.


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> ^^^^^ WOW Ei I am in total awe of your honesty. You know that post is going to be scrutinised by some now don't you? But wow! Well done you for being so absolutely honest. You shared A LOT there! Hope B1 is ok
> Xx


Thank you daisygirl. There isn't anything in the post that B1 didn't already know. I would never share anything on TAM that I hadn't already shared with him. It's just that some of the most painful details, for B1, of the whole affair are in there and although B1 and I talk about everything, often, it's hard to see them in black and white. One of the things that B1 and I have discovered, though, is that while it is, initially, very painful to reveal, once the truth is "out there" it does lose some of it's power over you. There are things that I can freely acknowledge, now, that I couldn't a few months ago because I wasn't ready to "let it all go." I am now.

I'm not proud of what I did. But, I did it, and I think that by sharing it, honestly, that maybe, if someone else can see themselves in any part of it, they might stop short of making all of the terrible choices that I did. And, I want people to know that no matter how far gone their marriage is or how far gone they think it is, that if both spouses truly want to reconcile, for all of the right reasons and are, both, 100% commited to the time, effort, patience and love that is necessary for a successful R, that it is possible.

Affairs aren't pretty.... they destroy lives.... if the details are told in a glamorous or romanticized way they can look and sound pretty.... for a while. I want to show the true, uncensored, ugly side of an affair. The lies, the deception, the moral compromises that you have to make. And, the people, all of the people who get hurt.... because, sometimes, the list is far bigger than you might imagine. I realized, yesterday, that my morals and my honesty had become collateral damage in my pursuit of happiness. I don't want any of that any more.

I have a husband who loves me... and he loves me knowing all of the dirty, ugly, details of my deception. I will never take his commitment to me for granted again. And, I will never take my commitment to him and throw it away like I tried so hard to do.

I love you, B1...... <3


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## EI

WyshIknew said:


> Thanks for that EI it was something I had wondered about.
> Hopefully this is something that you and B1 have covered at length in your talks so it won't be a fresh trigger for him.
> 
> I almost wish I hadn't asked now. But I can certainly see why you were protective of him. He was largely blameless. Hopefully he has recovered from this as well.


It's okay that you asked.... I assume that people ask me these questions because they know that I will answer them, honestly. Sometimes, I think they are looking for answers for themselves. My only hope it that my honesty (which came too late) might prevent someone else from making the same mistakes.

I will say this for anyone who might be reading my story. If you are the WS and your spouse is seeking answers..... Don't lie, don't trickle truth, and don't withhold the facts. You owe them the truth. I cannot imagine how any WS can see the devastation in their BS's eyes and continue to lie to them.


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## cpacan

Thank you, EI! This was a very powerfull post, definitely worth waiting for  Due to linguistics I can't express my thoughts precisely the way I want to, but here we go.

From what I read, you have now thought well beyond both the usual and more spectacular justifications for yourself, quite remarkable if I may say so.

I admire the level of self reflection and honesty in your post, and I am confident that you will make it through this. You seem to realize now that there are more than one option when you face hard times in your marriage, and it also seems that you have reached a level of self awareness/consciousness that will guide you in a positive direction. It may not always be easy, but I think that you will be able to find peace within yourself in the future.

If my wife would demonstrate the same attitude and willingness to explore her thoughts and feelings, I would definitely be in another place and feel more secure than I do today. On the flipside, I have had the opportunity to improve myself beyond what I might have done, had she done more of the heavy lifting 

Not that you seem to need it, but I believe in you - and fortunately B1 seems to do the same

Thanks again for a well thought and powerfull post!


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## RWB

Empty Inside said:


> I will say this for anyone who might be reading my story. If you are the WS and your spouse is seeking answers..... Don't lie, don't trickle truth, and don't withhold the facts. You owe them the truth.* I cannot imagine how any WS can see the devastation in their BS's eyes* and continue to lie to them.



EI,

This part of what you wrote really hit home for me. The day I caught my wife, I was completely blindside. Years prior I suspected and even asked without proof. But, things had improved with our marriage (I thought) once our kids had moved out to college. I really thought we were growing close again. What I didn't know was that she had been serially cheating off and on for years. 

When I knew for a fact that she was in a emotional-sexual affair and in love again with an old BF my world, my marriage of 30 years, was destroyed in an instant.

Getting back to what you wrote... The really interesting point was her reaction. She was really surprised, shocked, at how hurt and destroyed I was at the truth of her betrayal. Somehow she had convinced herself (with help from OM) that I really wouldn't care about her affair. That I didn't love her and would just kick her out and immediately move to divorce. 

See the rationalization... She was not really hurting me by cheating because in her mind I didn't care anyway about her. She said the hurt in my eyes (still) is something that she will never forgive herself for.


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## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> ^^^^^ WOW Ei I am in total awe of your honesty. You know that post is going to be scrutinised by some now don't you? But wow! Well done you for being so absolutely honest. You shared A LOT there! Hope B1 is ok
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't lie, this does hurt, If I were not at work reading this I would have a good cry. But I am at work and I can't 

In saying this, there was absolutely nothing new, nothing I didn't already know, and nothing we hadn't talked about over and over. When EI and I say we talk, this is some of the stuff we cover. EI is as honest on this board as she is with me. She doesn't hold back, and she really does put herself out there. 

We have come a long way in the past 5 months, not just with our marriage, but as you can see, with ourselves too. EI has especially started to figure herself out in just these last few weeks.

This Reconciliation is one hell of a ride, I had mind movies for the first time in weeks last evening. I was a little angry, very hurt and it was a unpleasant evening. I made a few rough comments to EI about the physical part of the A. She took it, without a word or argument back.
But, she knew I was hurting beyond belief and was letting it out.
It did not end bad, or in an angry way at all.
I was just sad and hurting. EI was there doing her best to comfort me. I finally, after about an hour, regained control of the movies and thoughts and stopped with the talking about it.

I went to bed and about 15 minutes later here came EI checking on me to see if I was ok. That's reconciliation. It doesn't always mean good and upbeat, there is plenty of bad and sad too, but it is ALL part of R. As long as you understand this, then you have a good shot at making it.


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## daisygirl 41

Does Margrace have her own thread that I can comment on?
Thx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> Does Margrace have her own thread that I can comment on?
> Thx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She does, but it looks like they havn't been posted on since Aug.
If I am wrong margrace, please forgive 

** Please, by all means, go ahead and comment here if you don't mind. **


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## daisygirl 41

Thanks B1
I can see by her post quoted by MatMat that she has discovered her H has broken NC. Is this an old post of here or has this just happened?
I have been through that myself and know how devastating it is. I just wanted to offer her some support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Empty Inside said:


> Well, alright then, only the easy questions for EI, right???  I know, I put myself "out there" on this thread all of the time with my radical honesty. I know that my brand of honesty isn't what some of you want to read/hear, but I do think that it's understood that when I answer your questions I'm not answering them with the answers that I am "supposed" to give, but with "my honesty" as I truly think/feel/see it. That's all I have.


Thanks for filling in the blanks of this part of your "adventure." (Boy am I gonna get heat for calling it an adventure, but that's what life is, an adventure*)

You have come as clean as you possibly can, and are holding back no punches, so all I can say is good for you, and keep it coming. With each new revelation, there is comfort and affirmation for me. I need to know what my wife was going through, and I can see more and more that our situations are somewhat parallel.

I know we always wish we could have that 20/20 hindsight in advance, that we could have predicted the consequences of our mistakes (or choices) before we made them. We just can't, and out of the wreckage that our marriages have suffered, perhaps new and better insights will appear. 

When I think about how few people are actually on this thread, it makes me sad that more aren't trying to reconcile, or aren't engaging. I know this is only a microcosm of the world out there, but there are a lot of people on TAM, some who only check in occassionally, some who lurk, and some who wait and watch.

I just hope that there are others who are getting something good out of all this. I certainly am.

*a bold, usually risky undertaking; hazardous action of uncertain outcome.


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## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thanks B1
> I can see by her post quoted by MatMat that she has discovered her H has broken NC. Is this an old post of here or has this just happened?
> I have been through that myself and know how devastating it is. I just wanted to offer her some support.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It just happened, Nov. 6th. They had been in R for 8 months too and in counseling. She was, and I'm sure still is, devestated.

She could use the support, so please feel free to offer it here.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> I went to bed and about 15 minutes later here came EI checking on me to see if I was ok. That's reconciliation. It doesn't always mean good and upbeat, there is plenty of bad and sad too, but it is ALL part of R. As long as you understand this, then you have a good shot at making it.


This is the good part. Keep working it!


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## Acabado

Thank you very much EI.


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## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thanks B1
> I can see by her post quoted by MatMat that she has discovered her H has broken NC. Is this an old post of here or has this just happened?
> I have been through that myself and know how devastating it is. I just wanted to offer her some support.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


daisy, thank you for following my story -- B1 is right, i could definitely use the support. and i would love to hear your experience.

this thread -- reconciliation -- is pretty much my home thread now  so i am happy to find your response here (even though i can't really say that i'm working on R now).

so you saw the story. yes, WH had supposedly worked on R for 8 long months with me, even had just begun MC, when i picked up his phone and saw that on the same day as our first session, he had called OW. what?!! that night i yelled and cried and cussed more than i had during the entire rest of our experience. that was tuesday night (omg it feels like two weeks ago although that was only night before last).

last night, we had a different kind of conversation and i had some kind of accidental epiphany or something. we began talking about the night before, and i suddenly realized FOR REAL finally something that people on this thread have told me before. i realized, among other things, that his lying meant that *he is ambivalent about R* despite what he says. sounds obvious, right? but it finally sank in. whatever degree of truth there was to his telling me that he still loved me, he wasn't all in.

so what in the world was i doing then? i believed that if two people give 100%, then they can work through just about anything, and i still believe that. but i was trying to play every position on the team all by myself... which is never going to get anywhere, MC or not. 

and i realized that i have to unclench my little fists and let him go. and i told him that last night. "i can let you go now," i said (crying, of course. i can't *wait *until i stop crying all the time.)

he said something to the effect that i am the only person who knows him, that i am his best friend. and i heard myself say, well, i'm still your friend.

surprisingly (to me), 1) i meant that and 2) i actually felt a tiny sense of the burden lifting (or at least shifting) as i said it. it felt like moving on. it felt more like moving on than all the yelling and cuss words had the night before. 

none of this is to deny that i am still really struggling and have moments where i feel faint and that the bottom is dropping out of my life. i am never hungry and i cry every day and people at my work know that something's wrong. i'm scared and i feel alone.

he is here with me as he prepares to find an apartment.

thanks to all of you for keeping me in your thoughts. it means so much to me.


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## ChangingMe

Margrace, I am glad you are finding a tiny bit of acceptance in this,and I hope that acceptance will help carry you through. You WILL get through this -that is something my IC therapist tells me: No matter what happens, you will survive and come out the other side stronger. It's so hard to believe while you're going through it (and I still have trouble believing it at times), but part of me knows it's true. 

You are absolutely right that you can't put forth 100% of the effort for both of you. No matter how much you want to fix things, you cannot do it if he's not giving the same amount -or really even more, since he's the one that was unfaithful. Keep reminding yourself that you did ALL you could, and the fact that the marriage was not healed is completely on him and not you. 

As for him loving you or not, I obviously can't speak for him, but I think there is a good chance that he does love you, but like others have said, he is selfish and not willing to have that love be enough. Again, this does not reflect on you, only him. 

Keep posting, margrace. Vent, cry, lean on us. We're here for you, and you will come through this.


----------



## B1

I'm glad you have a home here on this thread. I am so sorry you are going through this. I honestly cannot imagine your pain right now. 

I know you feel like he's your friend but don't forget your friend betrayed you and cannot be trusted. I am sorry about that too margrace. I am sure you do feel alone. Please reach out to someone close to you there, a relative, friend, church pastor.. someone. 

You have got to take care of you, hold it together, you can do this. Can you take time off work?

stay busy as best you can, what about getting to the gym in the evening's? 

Also, watch for depression, anxiety, you may need to see your Dr. for meds.

You will survive this, it's not the end. Look at this as a new beginning. Sure it hurts like hell right now but time will heal that hurt. You have actually been here before, 8 month's ago. You survived that and you will survive this too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace,

You do have to eat even when you're not feeling hungry. You have to rest and you have to take care of yourself. I know you still love your husband. Feelings are not like a water faucet that you can turn on/off. I know you want to be "there" for him, I completely understand your desire and your need to feel like you are holding onto some positive aspect of your marriage/relationship, but I want to give you a word of caution..... Don't put his needs before your own, as a misguided goodwill gesture, thinking that he will realize what a mistake he is making. He is, likely, feeling very guilty, right now, as he should, because he has continued to deceive you for the last 8 months. If you are too much of a "friend" to him then you have, essentially, given him a pass for lying, deceiving and continuing to see the OW. 

When he says that you knew him better than anyone else did, you should have said that, no, you did not know him, at all, because the man you "thought" you knew would not have lied, deceived and cheated on you, and then after seeing how devastated you were take it further underground, while watching you suffer through the anguish of a false reconciliation.That's not how you treat a friend. I want you to be more concerned about you, your feelings, and your needs than his need to ease his guilty conscience by claiming to be your friend. 

I hated making that comment because I don't like to say hurtful things, but he has already manipulated your feelings, for his own personal/selfish/comfort reasons, for the last 8 months of a false R and all the time before that during his affair. I think that is what he is doing, now. Please think about the 180...... all for your sake, not his.... You need to have some distance and some boundaries in place so that YOU can begin to heal.

Take Care,
~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> Thank you, EI! This was a very powerfull post, definitely worth waiting for


You're welcome, and thank you! 



cpacan said:


> I admire the level of self reflection and honesty in your post, and I am confident that you will make it through this..... It may not always be easy, but I think that you will be able to find peace within yourself in the future.


The self reflection didn't happen overnight.... it has been a process and I hope it will continue to be this way on an ongoing basis. And, I'm really very happy about that. B1 and I were talking, again, tonight.... like we do every night and we acknowledged how far we've come. We're learning answers about ourselves that we didn't even know were questions before... hence my signature line. My newest realization came today when I realized that we weren't just trying to reconcile our marriage, in many ways.... we're reconciling ourselves, first. That's the reason, I think, that we honestly believe we will have a stronger, healthier and happier marriage going forward. Because, individually, we are doing so much work on ourselves that we have two stronger, healthier and happier people commited to this new union.



cpacan said:


> If my wife would demonstrate the same attitude and willingness to explore her thoughts and feelings, I would definitely be in another place and feel more secure than I do today. On the flipside, I have had the opportunity to improve myself beyond what I might have done, had she done more of the heavy lifting


The only thing that I can say about your comment, above, is that, for me, personally, I would have never have been able to have the peace of mind and the clarity of mind to grow from this situation had B1 not have been as loving and supportive as he has been throughout this whole ordeal. I've read many stories on TAM about BH's screaming, cursing, threatening, striking, and calling their WS's derogatory names, and I knew that I would not have lasted a day in that environment. And, trust me, when I say that I am no shrinking violet.... I can hold my own verbally, physically.... anyway.... and, maybe that is a part of it. I know that I cannot begin to imagine the pain that a BS feels.... because I am not a BS, I was a WS. I do understand that even the "nice guys" can and do lose control of their emotions in the early aftermath of D-Day. But, when B1 made it very clear that he loved me and he wanted to know if I had a desire to reconcile, I asked him if he wanted to love me or to punish me. I don't think that you can rise up out of adversity, even of your own making, while you are being pushed back down. Sure, there have been a few episodes of raised voices, finger-pointing and 4 letter words... but it has been the exception and not the rule. 

I'm not suggesting that your wife doesn't feel safe enough to "open up" and "explore" her thoughts and feelings, but after reading so many different scenarios on TAM, I wonder if that has not been the case in many of these situations. There is no way that I could have been this honest with B1 if I had to fear his response. And, without this level of honesty he and I would not have come this far. For example; B1 was on an already scheduled vacation the week after D-Day, a Sunday, so by the following week, when B1 went back to work, I was really struggling with the urge to call the xOM. Instead, I picked up the phone and called B1. I even told him, "I am having a stressful day, normally, I would be talking to the OM, right now. Instead, I am calling you." B1, literally, carried me through those days. That is why I always say that "I will be forever grateful that he loved me the most when I was the least lovable and the least deserving of his love." Now, I am so much stronger and I am doing my very best to "carry" him. 



cpacan said:


> *Not that you seem to need it, but I believe in you - and fortunately B1 seems to do the same*


No, actually, I do need it. It means a great deal to me. Remember, one of my realizations is that I thrive on outside validation. Thank you for reading our story and for believing in me. And, yes, I am so very fortunate that B1 believes in me.... and I believe in his love for me, now.... and for the first time in years, B1 and I believe in "us."


----------



## daisygirl 41

Margrace
I will respond to your post but I am very busy at work today and I think it's going to be a long one! 
You are in my thoughts though and your post almost had me in tears. Took me right back to March when I discovered my Hs A was still going on.
I totally relate to what your are feeling and the change in emotions you are experiencing.
Your story is similar to mine in many ways. Just for the record, when Iet him go a d started moving on - that's when the true R began! But depends what you want now and it's early days!
Will try and respond properly over the weekend.
Look after yourself now honey. Concentrate on YOU now. Get some food in you (even if its a milkshake). Take a deep breathe, a d let him believe you are done, moving on, even if your not!
X

This is a link to my thread. It goes from the day i found out the A was still going on to when we truly R

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...ion/41159-please-dont-say-you-told-me-so.html
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

> As for him loving you or not, I obviously can't speak for him, but I think there is a good chance that he does love you, but like others have said, he is selfish and not willing to have that love be enough. Again, this does not reflect on you, only him.


CM, thank you so much for reaching out. it is really one of the most astoundingly painful experiences i have ever been through (and i know that lots of you have been there). it's so weird and contradictory -- i think that *in his way* he does love me, as you suggest. but it's not a kind of love that is good for me to be around right now.

people who know my story know that some of the complications are that 1) our pre-A marriage was dead and i was a prime contributor to that. i can't claim to be one of those wives who was a wonderful loving partner whose H just strayed for no apparent reason at all. as a result, WH has lots of legitimate lingering pain and 2) now having learned a little about MLC, i see that that's going on for him as well.

it's weird -- he has pulled away from me and gone outside our marriage and maintains that he needs to continue in that direction. i have told him that i finally see this, and that i'm not fighting it any longer. (i'm even supporting it.) and at the same time, he often still acts like a husband... doing little things to take care of me or help me without me asking, emailing/txting during the day, etc.



> I know you feel like he's your friend but don't forget your friend betrayed you and cannot be trusted. I am sorry about that too margrace. I am sure you do feel alone. Please reach out to someone close to you there, a relative, friend, church pastor.. someone.


i get you on this one, B1. you are so right, he can't be trusted. and because of that, i don't feel so much that he's my friend as i feel that i can offer friendship/acceptance to him on some human level as he follows whatever path this is. 

sadly for me, i admit to you all that i do still love him -- loving him and caring about him are _part_ of me. i am seeing that i can't just remove that part or flip a switch, but i also see that i have to change my heart.



> You do have to eat even when you're not feeling hungry. You have to rest and you have to take care of yourself. I know you still love your husband. Feelings are not like a water faucet that you can turn on/off. I know you want to be "there" for him, I completely understand your desire and your need to feel like you are holding onto some positive aspect of your marriage/relationship, but I want to give you a word of caution..... Don't put his needs before your own, as a misguided goodwill gesture, thinking that he will realize what a mistake he is making. He is, likely, feeling very guilty, right now, as he should, because he has continued to deceive you for the last 8 months. If you are too much of a "friend" to him then you have, essentially, given him a pass for lying, deceiving and continuing to see the OW.
> 
> When he says that you knew him better than anyone else did, you should have said that, no, you did not know him, at all, because the man you "thought" you knew would not have lied, deceived and cheated on you, and then after seeing how devastated you were take it further underground, while watching you suffer through the anguish of a false reconciliation.That's not how you treat a friend. I want you to be more concerned about you, your feelings, and your needs than his need to ease his guilty conscience by claiming to be your friend.


lol, EI, you knew that even before i admitted it 

yes, i am being deliberate about eating and that is NOT easy. but i know that you are right and that i have to really prioritize taking care of myself.

yes, you called it, i am looking for a more positive perspective -- that is who i am, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. i am trying to balance that with ALSO looking ahead to what i need to do to make my own life, apart from him, a better, warmer, safer, and happier place for myself. i'm telling him that i accept that his journey is taking him in a different direction but i am also letting him see that i am mobilizing to put the pieces back together in my own life. that's what i'm trying to do, anyway.



daisygirl 41 said:


> Margrace
> I will respond to your post but I am very busy at work today and I think it's going to be a long one!
> You are in my thoughts though and your post almost had me in tears. Took me right back to March when I discovered my Hs A was still going on.
> I totally relate to what your are feeling and the change in emotions you are experiencing.
> Your story is similar to mine in many ways. Just for the record, when Iet him go a d started moving on - that's when the true R began! But depends what you want now and it's early days!
> Will try and respond properly over the weekend.
> Look after yourself now honey. Concentrate on YOU now. Get some food in you (even if its a milkshake). Take a deep breathe, a d let him believe you are done, moving on, even if your not!
> X
> 
> This is a link to my thread. It goes from the day i found out the A was still going on to when we truly R
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...ion/41159-please-dont-say-you-told-me-so.html
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hi daisy:

i read your whole thread this morning. the similarities just kept jumping out at me -- you and i have expressed so many of the same things, often in the exact same words.

yes, let him see that i'm moving on, and work toward that, even if i'm not 100% sure that i want that (yet). that kind of sums it up for me!

i saw in your thread that, like with everyone on TAM, you sometimes got advice that completely contradicted other advice. and your own feelings often went in opposite directions, too! that's how my feelings have been too.

like you, the hard 180 is not for me, although i admire those people sometimes. you used the phrase "mini-180" -- that fits a little better for me.

it's complicated when you are under the same roof, right?

tonight i am going to have dinner with him, but i'm meeting him after i go to happy hour with friends. i will be the designated driver  he knows that i am going out before meeting him. having something else to do that might actually be fun bolsters me a little.

looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts, daisy.

and THANK YOU, everyone. you are a treasure xoxo


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## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> i'm scared and i feel alone.


You are not alone. We area all pulling for you here. Keep writing it out. It's probably good for you.


----------



## B1

This is going to be an odd post, but we do cover everything in this thread.

Reconciliation and feeling better with vitamins...

Something that I think is helping me now is Omega 3 fish oil (On day 14)
Dosage: My bottle says this: 360 mg EPA/240 mg DHA It says take 2 pills I am taking 3. After reading up on it I wanted close to 1000MG per dose. so my dosage is: 1086 EPA\720 DHA

Also...
I take horny goat weed (on day 5) made by prolab. It is for libido but it's also for energy. I didn't need a lot of help with libido but I could use a little for some minor ED issues. I take T-injections and when it wears off, just prior to my next shot I could use a little help. It hasn't done much for my ED issue yet, and my libido which was already good hasn't spiked either, but for some it makes a very big difference in that area. Thanks goes to juicer for pointing me to this.

One of these two has kicked in this week, I have noticed a big difference in energy and motivation, especially in the evening when I would usually be drained. And, I just feel better, mood is up, my depression that I also take prescription meds for is improved. I am just putting this out there for those that may be hurting and feeling exhausted, un-motivated and don't want to go to the Dr. These meds are affordable too. You can find the Omega 3 at any drug store or wallmart, I got the goat weed from the vitamin shop online.

I am just not sure right now which has made this difference for me, so I am taking both for now 

I just know when you feel better that recover goes better, EI noticed a difference yesterday. I am even more talkative, pro-active, more alert etc. 
This isn't nervous energy now, it's much more of a mental alertness and not feeling exhausted and drained.

anyway, hope this helps someone.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> This is going to be an odd post, but we do cover everything in this thread...
> Reconciliation and feeling better with vitamins...
> anyway, hope this helps someone.


Anything at all is helpful. These are good recommendations, and I'll be checking into these. Already did a little looking at the HGW thing.

There are a lot of aspects to reconciliation. That you are willing to share what works for you works for us. Thanks!


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## CantSitStill

Wow it's been quiet in this thread all day...what's going on people?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Me and EI just got back from eating, just sitting here chilling on the couch. We have been doing really well. I still seem to go through about 2-3 bad moments a day, if that makes sense. They are generally short lived events. 

how goes it with everyone else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

There you are  We're doing ok. The ups and downs but I'll never lose hope. Enjoy your family day tomorrow  I think it's great that you all get together on Sundays 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Me and EI just got back from eating, just sitting here chilling on the couch. We have been doing really well. I still seem to go through about 2-3 bad moments a day, if that makes sense. They are generally short lived events.
> 
> how goes it with everyone else?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It happens,I wish it would stop.
Its good you guys took a break.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Hey CSS.... You guys hanging in there? Do you like your new MC? I know it must be hard starting over with a new one, but if the old was wasn't working it was best to cut your losses and start over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Hey, it's official !!!...... My username how been officially changed from "Empty Inside" to "EI" since I no longer feel _empty inside_, anymore. Now, I'll just have to think of something clever for "EI" to stand for. LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CSS is naping on the couch,I'm watching a cheesey movie on the Syfy channel with my fat Beagle.
Exciting night
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

EI said:


> Hey, it's official !!!...... My username how been officially changed from "Empty Inside" to "EI" since I no longer feel empty inside, anymore. Now, I'll just have to think of something clever for "EI" to stand for. LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Enlightened & Inspired


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## jh52

calvin said:


> CSS is naping on the couch,I'm watching a cheesey movie on the Syfy channel with my fat Beagle.
> Exciting night
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


last week you said it touched you watching her sleep -- and the who feeds the beagle to make him fat !!:scratchhead:


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## calvin

jh52 said:


> Enlightened & Inspired


Good stuff jh
Dig the new name E l
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

calvin said:


> CSS is naping on the couch,I'm watching a cheesey movie on the Syfy channel with my fat Beagle.
> Exciting night
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


me too, is the cheesy movie ghost storm? it's realy cheesy too...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> me too, is the cheesy movie ghost storm? it's realy cheesy too...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah,  the previews looked ok but this movie sucks so much I cant stop watching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

calvin said:


> Yeah,  the previews looked ok but this movie sucks so much I cant stop watching.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you, sucks so bad that you have to watch it. My son is giving me grief because he has to watch it too...LOL..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

Margrace,
I would like to beat the shyt out of your husband!
Ok, I have to remember that this is a rconcilition and forgiveness thread

You may have not been a “wonderful loving partner” but that is in a completely different universe from your husband cheating on you and then adding salt to the injury by cheating agin in R.



> Quotes of Margrace
> 
> i am furious with myself for:
> 
> 1) second-guessing myself, e.g., i screwed this all up! maybe i shouldn't have asked him to leave that first time. maybe i should have been way more accepting of whatever efforts he could make the whole time.
> 
> 2) *missing him, wanting to help him even now* (omg that makes me sick!)
> 
> what is wrong with me?
> 
> i do have anger too, and i feel it for moments but it slips away, and i go back to feeling heartbroken, sad, alone, etc.
> 
> he seems to be someone who doesn't know much about himself and does not want to.
> 
> so what in the world was i doing then? i believed that if two people give 100%, then they can work through just about anything, and *i still believe that*. but i was trying to play every position on the team all by myself... which is never going to get anywhere, MC or not.
> 
> and i realized that i have to unclench my little fists and let him go. and i told him that last night. *"i can let you go now," *i said (crying, of course. i can't wait until i stop crying all the time.)
> 
> he said something to the effect that i am the only person who knows him, that i am his best friend. and i heard myself say, well, i'm still your friend.
> 
> surprisingly (to me), 1) i meant that and 2) i actually felt a tiny sense of the burden lifting (or at least shifting) as i said it. it felt like moving on. it felt more like moving on than all the yelling and cuss words had the night before.
> 
> sadly for me, i admit to you all that *i do still love him* -- loving him and caring about him are part of me. i am seeing that i can't just remove that part or flip a switch, but i also see that i have to change my heart





As for you Margrace, *I am so impressed with what you are able to say above!!*

You are in great pain yet you have a great soul! If you choose a man in the future he will be a lucky man. You believe in people, you reach out when you are in your greatest pain; even to the punk that hurt you, you went the extra mile when many would not and you are a strong and classy woman!


*Stop wondering if you are loveable, any good man would snatch you up if he knew of your admirable character and loving heart!*


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## margrace

Mr Blunt said:


> Margrace,
> I would like to beat the shyt out of your husband!
> Ok, I have to remember that this is a rconcilition and forgiveness thread
> 
> You may have not been a “wonderful loving partner” but that is in a completely different universe from your husband cheating on you and then adding salt to the injury by cheating agin in R.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for you Margrace, *I am so impressed with what you are able to say above!!*
> 
> You are in great pain yet you have a great soul! If you choose a man in the future he will be a lucky man. You believe in people, you reach out when you are in your greatest pain; even to the punk that hurt you, you went the extra mile when many would not and you are a strong and classy woman!
> 
> 
> *Stop wondering if you are loveable, any good man would snatch you up if he knew of your admirable character and loving heart!*


oh thank you, mr. b! crying a little now because yes, i guess i do wonder if i am lovable. it hurts me to acknowledge that. but i do also believe in people, it's true.

i do believe that mostly, we don't intend to hurt each other -- except for a few people who are hardwired for sociopathy or something like that. i also believe that once we learn how we are hurting each other, we can work through the hardest struggle if we really want to, and peace and happiness are somewhere ahead.

(that doesn't mean that you can't beat the shyt out of WH )

it's the "we" part of that i didn't have. 

WH didn't seem to want to be completely without me. i asked him several times, if you don't really want this, please let me go! yes, i would do that, he said. but actually, he didn't want to do that work. or at least, he was ambivalent about it.

so here i am. can't regret it -- i was trying so hard in good faith.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> Hey, it's official !!!...... My username how been officially changed from "Empty Inside" to "EI" since I no longer feel _empty inside_, anymore. Now, I'll just have to think of something clever for "EI" to stand for. LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Editor Inchief?


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## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> WH didn't seem to want to be completely without me. i asked him several times, if you don't really want this, please let me go! yes, i would do that, he said. but actually, he didn't want to do that work. or at least, he was ambivalent about it.


Where is he on this today?


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## jh52

Hey EI and B1 -- hope you guys are having a good day.

It's Sunday -- so that usually means your family day. This post always puts a smile on my face -- wish all families were as close as yours.

Have FUN !!!!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## EI

bobka said:


> Editor Inchief?


I love it, bobka!


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## CantSitStill

Everasting umm hmm thinking of an i word..I'll be back lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

jh52 said:


> Hey EI and B1 -- hope you guys are having a good day.
> 
> It's Sunday -- so that usually means your family day. This post always puts a smile on my face -- wish all families were as close as yours.
> 
> Have FUN !!!!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


Thank you jh..... waiting on them, now! We have to play "beat the clock" to get everything that needs to be done for the day taken care of before they get here.... because after they get here.... all eyes must be on the baby.... but, he _is_ such a cute little guy that we don't reeeeeeeeally mind! 

I hope that you and Mrs. jh have a wonderful Sunday, as well!


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## EI

margrace said:


> oh thank you, mr. b! crying a little now because yes, i guess i do wonder if i am lovable. it hurts me to acknowledge that. but i do also believe in people, it's true.
> 
> i do believe that mostly, we don't intend to hurt each other -- except for a few people who are hardwired for sociopathy or something like that. i also believe that once we learn how we are hurting each other, we can work through the hardest struggle if we really want to, and peace and happiness are somewhere ahead.
> 
> (that doesn't mean that you can't beat the shyt out of WH )
> 
> it's the "we" part of that i didn't have.
> 
> WH didn't seem to want to be completely without me. i asked him several times, if you don't really want this, please let me go! yes, i would do that, he said. but actually, he didn't want to do that work. or at least, he was ambivalent about it.
> 
> so here i am. can't regret it -- i was trying so hard in good faith.


I just wanted to say that I'm thinking about you, today!


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## Acabado

margrace said:


> so here i am. can't regret it -- i was trying so hard in good faith.


:iagree:


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## margrace

bobka said:


> Where is he on this today?


where is he on that today? hmmmm, it is hard to say. my conjecture is: he's confused. 

he looks sad and is acting like my husband in many ways – he still wants to take care of me and fulfill some responsibilities. he expresses worry about whether i'm cold, eating enough, etc. he talks about scheduling events in the future, e.g., when are we going to dinner to celebrate your promotion at work? 

meanwhile i am trying to bring my focus to my own life a bit more. NOT entirely successful... but i keep that to myself and continue trying. it has helped me feel a little less chaotic.

tonight at dinner, he looked teary and said, i think i have some really difficult days ahead. i said, yes, i think so too, but you'll get through it. and changed the subject.

so he is going through _something _related to our marriage, but maybe it's just that he is preparing to leave once and for all.


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## margrace

EI said:


> I just wanted to say that I'm thinking about you, today!


thank you, EI! thinking of you and B1 and sending warm wishes


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## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> where is he on that today? hmmmm, it is hard to say. my conjecture is: he's confused.
> 
> he looks sad and is acting like my husband in many ways – he still wants to take care of me and fulfill some responsibilities. he expresses worry about whether i'm cold, eating enough, etc. he talks about scheduling events in the future, e.g., when are we going to dinner to celebrate your promotion at work?
> 
> meanwhile i am trying to bring my focus to my own life a bit more. NOT entirely successful... but i keep that to myself and continue trying. it has helped me feel a little less chaotic.
> 
> tonight at dinner, he looked teary and said, i think i have some really difficult days ahead. i said, yes, i think so too, but you'll get through it. and changed the subject.
> 
> so he is going through _something _related to our marriage, but maybe it's just that he is preparing to leave once and for all.


Sorry if I missed this; are you still co-habitating? I thought someone was going to move out. 

We conducted our separation under one roof, and it was hard in some ways, helpful in others. We are both home together (she's self-employed and I'm disabled), and so together 24/7 unless we have an outside activity or errand to do. This also adds to the tension in our marriage at times.


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## calvin

Morning guys,hope you all are doing good today and everyone is making progress,thid R stuff can be a killer.
Bad night for me last night and I know it hurts CSS when I get like that,hopefully the doctor will be able to do some thing for me.
Hope you all have a good week,praying for all on this thread.
God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Sorry for the rough night Calvin and CSS. Hopefully today will be a better day. And, good for you, Calvin about going to the doctor. I think that says a lot about your desire to help yourself and your relationship. 

Things are OK with us. I feel DD pulling back a bit again, but we had an exhausting weekend (garage sale, birthday party for our niece, DD did a brake job on his car), so I'm hoping part of that is just being worn out. 

I am on my way to IC, and then we have MC this evening. Hopefully the MC session will be good and help us 'reset.' It seemed to work last week. 

Have a great day, guys.


----------



## calvin

Good luck on the counseling seeions.
Hope you both have a good day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Morning guys,hope you all are doing good today and everyone is making progress,thid R stuff can be a killer.
> Bad night for me last night and I know it hurts CSS when I get like that,hopefully the doctor will be able to do some thing for me.
> Hope you all have a good week,praying for all on this thread.
> God bless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, Calvin, the R can be tough at times. I know when I have a bad night it is also very hard on EI, if it's really bad then it can really pull her down for days. Luckily those really bad nights don't happen near as much anymore.

So glad your going to the Dr. I know you really didn't want to do that but this just shows your commitment to CSS and your marriage. 

Good for you, you all are in our thoughts and prayers also.


----------



## B1

Bad day after many good days....

It really stinks when you have had several good days and then a bad day slips in on you. It's almost worse in a way because, in a way, you have let your guard down. You think, "wow.. this isn't so bad anymore, I'm getting through this."

Then POW, you get a good hard kick in the the gut that says, nope..you are not there yet pal!

Me and EI had this a couple nights ago. It's like everything is fine then, out of nowhere it goes down hill fast. Luckily, we got through it and actually went to bed happy, but for about an hour it was like we just took 20 steps backwards. 

Guess it's all part of it though. This is what we signed up for and, honestly, I really don't regret it either. We are moving forward, the good days are outweighing the bad now. And I love EI so much and I know she loves me just as much. 

It's SO nice to feel, I know I have said this before but for someone that spent a decade not feeling it's a wonderful thing to feel. And it's even more wonderful that it's EI that I share these feelings with.


----------



## EI

Crazy busy day already.... Since B1 works on a military post he gets all of the government holidays off. He decided to tag-a-long with me on one of my _"run around like a chicken with your head cut off kind of days."_ Hopefully, this will give him a better understanding of what a day in the life of a SAHM looks like because, honestly, some days there really isn't much "stay-at-home" time, at all.

By 11:00 a.m. we had already been in and out of the rehab hospital with our special needs son to get his pain pump adjusted and to get an additional opinion on his worsening scoliosis. I will be taking him to the spine specialist the day before Thanksgiving (my busiest day of the year) to get him scheduled for what will, likely, be surgery to put steel rods in his back.... something that I NEVER wanted to have to do. Then, @ 11:20 a.m., yes 20 minutes later, we had to be on the other side of town to meet our 20 y/o son at his knee surgeon's office for his 3rd f/u since his surgery in August. He has had 3 surgeries since March of last year and has had a cadaver knee grafted onto the hole, that was his knee, after shattering it in a game of p/u basketball in the Spring of 2011. He remains in a tremendous amount of pain and we are still working with his surgeon to try to make the best of an crappy situation, especially, for someone as young as he is.

Then, we stopped for a quick fast-food lunch, and while eating I was on the phone with the car insurance company because our youngest, our 17 y/o, got a ticket Saturday night because the tags on his truck had expired. This is the truck we just bought a few weeks ago, after he totaled his car last month. Apparently, the dealer was supposed to have given us a temporary tag until the title came in and we could get the registration updated. When the officer pulled him over for the "expired tag" our son also produced an insurance card that had expired on October 1st. Never mind, that I know beyond any shadow of any doubt that I gave him a current insurance card prior to October 1st. I used to, actually, take the old cards out of their wallets (including B1's) and replace them with the new cards, but I have always been a bit of a micro-manager, to the point of driving myself and everyone else crazy, so I have been trying to step back a little and let everyone grow up and take care of their own business..... see what I get for that.... $134 ticket.... so, I am trying to get all of *THAT* taken care of, as well.

Then, when got home, and our 22 y/o son was on the phone with his girlfriend arguing about something and he was trying his best to pull me into the middle of it by taking his side.... Now, see, I am waaaaay smarter than that. I know better. But, then I get the "Her Mom always takes her side," spiel. And, in this case I really did agree with him (I don't always) because, well, he was right. It was a dollars and cents kind of thing and I think that he was having trouble getting his point across so I put it on pencil and paper so that he could better explain it to her. 

Geeeez..... so, I thought that I would post something quick:

*Calvin, *I'm glad you are going to the doctor. I think that is a very wise decision. And, I am also, hopeful about the new MC that you and CSS are seeing.

*margrace,* all I can say is that I'm so sorry that you are hurting so much right now. I don't think that you will ever regret spending these last several months trying to reconcile with your husband. His choices are not a reflection on you or on your value as a person. Just from reading your posts, I sense that you are a very genuine, hopeful, kind, loving and optimistic person. No one is perfect and everyone makes poor choices, at some point in their lives, but it appears that you have put 100%, and then some, into your reconciliation attempt. Your husband is the one who was unfaithful and he is the one who has continued to deceive you even after you have demonstrated a genuine desire to reconcile the marriage and a willingness to "own" your share of the blame for the issues in your marriage pre-A. That was a beautiful gift that you offered to him. You will go forward as a far healthier, happier person, eventually, and he will, likely, be tormented with guilt and regret. This won't happen overnight, but I bet it does happen this way..... unless he wakes up before it's too late, if it isn't already too late. (((Hugs))) <3

*CM,* You have a big day of counseling ahead.... you'll be exhausted tonight, after an already exhausting weekend. When you have the energy and the time (because I know that posting takes both) please let us know how it all went. I'm sending you all of the good wishes and positives vibes that I have!!!

*bobka,* hang in there, buddy, I know this is hard.... but, time heals and I know that you and your wife are, both, communicating and working together, on this, and that is the most important key to reconciliation.

*Joe, Pidge, Dig, Regret, CSS, Acabado, daisygirl, hope1964, cpacan, others........ *we miss you guys! Pop in and say "Hi." Hopefully, no news is good news!

I'll post, again, when I have some more time and go into what threw B1 and I off this weekend. It started as something so simple. Something, that Pre-A would have just been EI being EI.... but, as I have learned, after infidelity, even the simple things are not as simple as they used to be. Think, big story in the news about a huge military/political figure whose career has been brought down by "infidelity." EI loves to talk politics, military, history, war...... then think, EI puts her foot in her mouth and, boom, kind of screwed the whole weekend up! 

Take care,
~EI

P.S. B1, I love you!


----------



## daisygirl 41

Ei
Your posts are always so thought provoking!
All good with me and H although I had a little 'moment' last night. We are enjoying season 2 of Homeland.
I think we r on episode 5 here in the UK. Brody lying to his wife about working with Carrie (his AP). Made me trigger big time.
Hs AP is a co worker!! Anyway I didn't have to say anything, H knew it hit a nerve, and was attentive and loving for the rest of the evening! He really is trying!
Just to let you all know too Hs xAP still works at the same place as him but H has not been to work for 4
Months. He had some holidays to take and is now off with stress. The time will come soon when he has to return and its going to be hard, but the sooner he returns the sooner he can look for a new post. It's not going to be easy in the current economic climate but let's hope he's successful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Thaks EI,sounds like youre extremly busy.
Seems like it never ends dont it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Does "EI - Your posts are always so thought provoking!" mean VERY VERY LONG !!

Just kidding Sis !!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## CantSitStill

CSS here checkin in lol sorry EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

hi everyone:

hope everyone had productive counseling sessions! and EI, oh my goodness.... you need to clone yourself, woman! you get SO much done for your family... you are such a great mom and wife.

bobka, yes, WH is still living here as we try to figure out what comes next. 

amazingly, i am not the same soggy kleenex that i was only a week ago. that shift in perspective that i told you about -- that i wish him well but i need to step back and let him deal with his issues (or not) -- has lasted.

i have learned enough to know that tomorrow something could trigger me or hit me wrong and that devastated feeling could come right back. but it hasn't for a few days.

WH seems a bit saddened. he may still want to separate, but he seems down, is making future plans with me, etc. 

i, on the other hand, find myself having thoughts about going back to the gym, taking ballroom dancing lessons, getting together with friends, and meeting new people.

i am continuing to express my support for his journey, wherever it takes him -- without trying to influence where that is or even discussing it. i'm not particularly angry and i might have even forgiven him. i still care about him and i wish that i could help him: is he going to drag those chains around forever? but i can't do that work for him 

it's like i have stepped back into my own life.

i'm surprised at myself. i'm not sure where it's going, either. i guess either he will leave and i will get on with it, or... something will happen and we will get back together? i can imagine that happening -- i'm just not sure what the something would be at this point.


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## calvin

jh52 said:


> Does "EI - Your posts are always so thought provoking!" mean VERY VERY LONG !!
> 
> Just kidding Sis !!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


EI pooossttt are looonnnggg??????
IIIII nnnneeeevvvvveeerrrr nnnooootttttiiiccccceeeedddd........
Sssssshhhhheeeee aaaalllllwwwwaaaayyyyssss
gggeeeettttsssss ttttoooo tttthhheeeeee
PPPooooiiiinnnttttt.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

daisygirl 41 said:


> Ei
> Your posts are always so thought provoking!
> All good with me and H although I had a little 'moment' last night. We are enjoying season 2 of Homeland.
> I think we r on episode 5 here in the UK. Brody lying to his wife about working with Carrie (his AP). Made me trigger big time.
> Hs AP is a co worker!! Anyway I didn't have to say anything, H knew it hit a nerve, and was attentive and loving for the rest of the evening! He really is trying!
> Just to let you all know too Hs xAP still works at the same place as him but H has not been to work for 4
> Months. He had some holidays to take and is now off with stress. The time will come soon when he has to return and its going to be hard, but the sooner he returns the sooner he can look for a new post. It's not going to be easy in the current economic climate but let's hope he's successful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HOMELAND ROCKS! But can definitely contain some triggers. Doesn't she play a great crazy? If my biploar was as bad as hers, I think I'd be hospitalized.

I wish you guys all the luck (that's all I can do - you guys have to do the work!) in the world.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Wish we could all go on a cruise together or something...


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Ei
> Your posts are always so thought provoking!


Hmmm.... I hope that's a good thing! I'm going to assume that it is.... being the optimist that I am...  so, thank you daisygirl! BTW, I always smile when I see your username because it's such a "pretty & happy" username! 



daisygirl 41 said:


> All good with me and H although I had a little 'moment' last night. We are enjoying season 2 of Homeland.
> I think we r on episode 5 here in the UK. Brody lying to his wife about working with Carrie (his AP). Made me trigger big time.
> Hs AP is a co worker!! Anyway I didn't have to say anything, H knew it hit a nerve, and was attentive and loving for the rest of the evening! He really is trying!


I think the world is full of triggers. Things that the average person, who has never been affected by infidelity, never thinks about twice. I never realized until recently how big of a role infidelity plays on so many television shows..... it's on dramas, comedies, talk shows, made for TV movies, etc., it's all over TV. For the most part, I don't even turn it on anymore.... or I just let B1 choose what to watch.... (and he has this horrid _addiction_ to "Pawn Stars," ugh...... not to be confused with porn stars. ) Unfortunately, infidelity is far more common in real life, too. Much more so than I ever realized until I found my way onto TAM.  I think that the way that your husband handled the situation by being loving and attentive for the rest of the evening speaks volumes.... But, I do think that if you wanted to "watch something else" that he should respect that and watch something else with you. I could never sit through something knowing that it was causing B1 any more hurt than he already lives with everyday. So, I'm learning to like "Pawn Stars." 



daisygirl 41 said:


> Just to let you all know too Hs xAP still works at the same place as him but H has not been to work for 4
> Months. He had some holidays to take and is now off with stress. The time will come soon when he has to return and its going to be hard, but the sooner he returns the sooner he can look for a new post. It's not going to be easy in the current economic climate but let's hope he's successful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We'll all say our prayers and keep our fingers crossed that your hubby is able to find a new job as soon as he returns to work. I know that has to be adding to your level of stress and I'm so sorry.


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## B1

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> hope everyone had productive counseling sessions! and EI, oh my goodness.... you need to clone yourself, woman! you get SO much done for your family... you are such a great mom and wife.
> 
> bobka, yes, WH is still living here as we try to figure out what comes next.
> 
> amazingly, i am not the same soggy kleenex that i was only a week ago. that shift in perspective that i told you about -- that i wish him well but i need to step back and let him deal with his issues (or not) -- has lasted.
> 
> i have learned enough to know that tomorrow something could trigger me or hit me wrong and that devastated feeling could come right back. but it hasn't for a few days.
> 
> WH seems a bit saddened. he may still want to separate, but he seems down, is making future plans with me, etc.
> 
> i, on the other hand, find myself having thoughts about going back to the gym, taking ballroom dancing lessons, getting together with friends, and meeting new people.
> 
> i am continuing to express my support for his journey, wherever it takes him -- without trying to influence where that is or even discussing it. i'm not particularly angry and i might have even forgiven him. i still care about him and i wish that i could help him: is he going to drag those chains around forever? but i can't do that work for him
> 
> it's like i have stepped back into my own life.
> 
> i'm surprised at myself. i'm not sure where it's going, either. i guess either he will leave and i will get on with it, or... something will happen and we will get back together? i can imagine that happening -- i'm just not sure what the something would be at this point.


Yes, get to the gym, dancing something for you. I have to say please be carefull though. I know you still love him and care and seeing him sad has an effect on you. Don't forget what he has been doing for the last 8 months.

Your best interests were not his. So, you really need to focus on you and actually start moving on without him. Do start doing something for yourself.

I think he is trying to cake eat somewhat. You are still comfortable to him, all he knows, but that's not what you want or need. You need a husband that gives you his undivided love and commitment.

Just saying, be careful margrace, keep your guard up as he still may be in contact with the ow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

margrace, it seems you reached a place of peace and clarity. You finnaly let go the outcome. I think it's great, hope it lasts.


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## B1

yes, I love pawn stars..good, fun, entertaining, and no chance of a trigger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> yes, I love pawn stars..good, fun, entertaining, and no chance of a trigger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just started watching that,I like it so far.
EI,youre right about the world being full of triggers.
I never paid it much attention either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

jh52 said:


> Does "EI - Your posts are always so thought provoking!" mean VERY VERY LONG !!
> 
> Just kidding Sis !!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


    *jh*, I don't have any idea what you're talking about??? :scratchhead: _*I got a lot of stuff to say, okaaaay??? *_



CantSitStill said:


> CSS here checkin in lol sorry EI


Hey *CSS* I've missed you, over here, on the R thread! 



calvin said:


> EI pooossttt are looonnnggg??????
> IIIII nnnneeeevvvvveeerrrr nnnooootttttiiiccccceeeedddd........
> Sssssshhhhheeeee aaaalllllwwwwaaaayyyyssss
> gggeeeettttsssss ttttoooo tttthhheeeeee
> PPPooooiiiinnnttttt.


*Caaaaalvin,* now, you're _really, really, really, _crossing the line... I'm going to have B1 cancel the dry ice order that I was going to use to ship your 10 lbs of homemade biscuits and gravy that I was making you for Christmas!!! 

*Beeeeeeeeeeeeee1111111111, cancel the dry ice! *



bobka said:


> Wish we could all go on a cruise together or something...


bobka, I would love that..... B1 and I have *NEVER* been on a cruise and it is definitely on my "bucket list," along with ziplining, (which will happen within a few months) parachuting from a plane (which will happen in less than 2 years because I have a milestone birthday, at that time, and I have *ALWAYS* wanted to do it,) and rescuing animals and providing transport for them to their new "furever" homes, along with several other random and exciting things. See, I have this _adventurous spirit,_ and I have never really gotten to do a lot of the things that I've long wanted to because my life has not been very flexible up to this point. But, B1 and I are making lots of changes in our lives and a little more "appropriate adventure" is in the works!


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## EI

betrayed1 said:


> yes, I love pawn stars..*good, fun, entertaining......*


_ If you say so, B1!_


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## calvin

Ok no gravy for me.I'll have my Mom make it,its the bestest! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Have a good tomorrow all......night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> EI, oh my goodness.... you need to clone yourself, woman! you get SO much done for your family... _you are such a great mom and wife._


Thank you, margrace!  LOL "B1, quit makin' that mean face when I read this stuff to you!" 
Seriously, thank you. Having no other choice is a *GREAT* motivator! 




margrace said:


> amazingly, i am not the same soggy kleenex that i was only a week ago. that shift in perspective that i told you about -- that i wish him well but i need to step back and let him deal with his issues (or not) -- has lasted..........
> 
> *i, on the other hand, find myself having thoughts about going back to the gym, taking ballroom dancing lessons, getting together with friends, and meeting new people........*
> 
> This: Do It! :iagree:
> 
> it's like i have stepped back into my own life.


*Awesome*

margrace, this sounds so wonderful.... now, try to remember this day, and this frame of mind when you have a more challenging day in the future. You will have good days and bad days, but this kind of thinking is so positive and so good for you. Please keep it up!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Ok no gravy for me.I'll have my Mom make it,its the bestest!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Whatever........... _  LOL


----------



## CantSitStill

I find myself watcing a movie or talk show or sitcom and then suddenly changing the darn channel, Calvin don't even ask why, he knows its the infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> Yes, get to the gym, dancing something for you. I have to say please be carefull though. I know you still love him and care and seeing him sad has an effect on you. Don't forget what he has been doing for the last 8 months.
> 
> Your best interests were not his. So, you really need to focus on you and actually start moving on without him. Do start doing something for yourself.
> 
> I think he is trying to cake eat somewhat. You are still comfortable to him, all he knows, but that's not what you want or need. You need a husband that gives you his undivided love and commitment.
> 
> Just saying, be careful margrace, keep your guard up as he still may be in contact with the ow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


wise words as usual! i will remember them. i accept that there are going to be downs along with these gradual ups (as EI pointed out) but i don't want to set myself up for another crash to the bottom of all bottoms.... it scares me to even think about how immobilized and non-functional i was!

and that _pain_, omg. emotional, but physical, too, right? it really just consumes you. 

so.... i want to remain as open and kind as possible to all parties (me included  ) because that feels generally like a positive, genuine path for me, but i want to also keep that healthy distance that allows me to preserve a focus on my life.

those are my thoughts... just have to work out what that balance actually looks like in real life.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> wise words as usual! i will remember them. i accept that there are going to be downs along with these gradual ups (as EI pointed out) but i don't want to set myself up for another crash to the bottom of all bottoms.... it scares me to even think about how immobilized and non-functional i was!
> 
> and that _pain_, omg. emotional, but physical, too, right? it really just consumes you.
> 
> so.... i want to remain as open and kind as possible to all parties (me included  ) because that feels generally like a positive, genuine path for me, but i want to also keep that healthy distance that allows me to preserve a focus on my life.
> 
> those are my thoughts... just have to work out what that balance actually looks like in real life.


Sorry if I came across to harsh. It does sound like you are in a better place. Stay strong for yourself and again, get out there and do something for you. 

I think Me and EI will both join a gym here very soon ourselves. I will start doing some wood working soon that I havn't done in a long time, something for me, and my grandson will benefit from it


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> yes, I love pawn stars..good, fun, entertaining, and no chance of a trigger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They must have shot a lot of episodes. I watch all the time, and rarely see repeats. It is a great show.


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> *I'm not suggesting that your wife doesn't feel safe enough to "open up" and "explore" her thoughts and feelings,* but after reading so many different scenarios on TAM, I wonder if that has not been the case in many of these situations. There is no way that I could have been this honest with B1 if I had to fear his response. And, without this level of honesty he and I would not have come this far. For example; B1 was on an already scheduled vacation the week after D-Day, a Sunday, so by the following week, when B1 went back to work, I was really struggling with the urge to call the xOM. Instead, I picked up the phone and called B1. I even told him, "I am having a stressful day, normally, I would be talking to the OM, right now. Instead, I am calling you." B1, literally, carried me through those days. That is why I always say that "I will be forever grateful that he loved me the most when I was the least lovable and the least deserving of his love." Now, I am so much stronger and I am doing my very best to "carry" him.


On request...

IE, the above bolded is exactly what you are suggesting, though not necessarily claiming it

I guess it rings true to some degree. I am definitely not a shouting, yelling, door slamming kind of guy. I actually do think I am kind of a nice guy, not so much anymore, though.

I believe that mrs.can try to avoid infidleity related issues just to avoid my anticipated reaction. She actually called me a ticking bomb two days ago, which was quite surprising to me, because I have become very good at remaining calm (due to all my work on acceptance and living in the present stuff). But nevertheless she seems to fear my reactions to "bad news". Ticking bomb.... hmm...

This actually means that in some areas, we are back to preaffair days where we didn't share our most intimate feelings and thoughts. Too bad.

Assuming she's afraid of intimate talks - I thought that she would be even more interested in searching her own self to improve in this area as well as try to understand why she made the choices that she did. But that seems to not be the case.

Anyway; it is what it is, and I choose to focus on self improvement all over, so my happyness isn't depending on her choices.

At the same time; I am very much aware of the fact, that I have to make her feel loved, otherwise what's the point from her perspective? This may sound as if I don't love her anymore, I do. But it's different than it used to be. Her cheating and her way of handling the aftermath has forever changed my perception of her.

These days I concentrate 100% on the present moment, trying to make each day as good as possible. I force myself to not think too much about the future, not to dream like I used to, because noone knows what tomorrow brings. This is a bit hard.

I would love to hear anyones thoughts on how to allow one self to dream about the future, while not trying to predict the future based on past events - if this makes any sense.

Anyway, have a nice day everyone. Mine started on low, but I will get there before midnight, promise


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Kissing on TV: I'm always uncomfortable when I see this happen while watching TV with WW, as I know how much she wants the kissing, and then I think about how I don't give that to her, so there's a silent tension there. It happened with a movie we watched last night. I know I should be better about this. It's still taking more time than I would like to get back to where we were when we first got together, when it was all kisses and lovemaking. I'm still cutting down on the one med that's really killed my libido, but I know there's a lot more to this than the med thing. I obviously have intimacy issues. 

My psychologist says I should just approach the sex thing in an "animal" way, that is, don't worry so much about tenderness and such, just do the deed and make the best of it. Sort of a "fake it 'til you make it" approach.

I've spent years doing intimacy avoidance, and now I need to step up, and I'm concerned it's not going to work. And if it doesn't, I don't know what that will bring.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

cpacan said:


> On request...These days I concentrate 100% on the present moment, trying to make each day as good as possible. I force myself to not think too much about the future, not to dream like I used to, because noone knows what tomorrow brings. This is a bit hard.
> 
> I would love to hear anyones thoughts on how to allow one self to dream about the future, while not trying to predict the future based on past events - if this makes any sense.


The future ain't what it used to be, my friend. You can still have those dreams, but I feel that the concentrating on the moment is probably healthier for you at this point. 

One of the best moments I had with WW since she returned was when she agreed that we need to go on another cruise (I took her on one last year, pre-A). So that gives me a future "happy point" to concentrate on, all the while knowing that just getting through the moment and today is my main mission. Sometimes it's very hard. If our R fails, I doubt I'll ever get that outside balcony cabin.

After an A, it's so true that no one knows what tomorrow brings. This is a new "handicap" that we all have to live with. It's sad, but it's the reality.

I'm a songwriter, and when my wife told me she wanted a separation, and when I was completely shocked by this, I wrote the beginnings of a song called "We Don't Know Ourselves All That Well." If I finish and record this song, I'll share it here.


----------



## B1

VERY rough morning, I had to actually pull over on the way to work and just cry. I cried for several minutes then called EI. Still hurting..and I feel more alone than ever. I am at work now, was ok, but now it's getting bad again. I just want to curl up and cry myself to sleep right now. I can't compete with with the viagra and alcohol induced $ex the om used when he was with EI. They were in a house with no kids, no responsibilities, no worries, nobody to interrupt their $ex filled fckng marathons. 

What am I supposed to do with this, how do I compete with that? I can't that's just it, EI was accustomed to $ex like this for over a year, long lasting uninterupted $ex. I am just your average guy, not a marathon man, not hyped up on viagra or alcohol....just average guy. EI can't feel this pain, she can't cry with me, she can't understand what this does to my self esteem and manhood, I feel less than, like I'm seconds, like she settling for the bare minimum when she would really like more...like she was used to getting from the xOM.

This sucks, really sucks..and no one understands, well, I take that back, some on here might understand. NO, not sure anyone does, especially not EI.

sorry for the post I want to delete it, but I will post it mostly to show others after 5 months this still hurts sometimes and I could use some support right now.....


----------



## cpacan

betrayed1 said:


> VERY rough morning, I had to actually pull over on the way to work and just cry. I cried for several minutes then called EI. Still hurting..and I feel more alone than ever. I am at work now, was ok, but now it's getting bad again. I just want to curl up and cry myself to sleep right now. I can't compete with with the viagra and alcohol induced $ex the om used when he was with EI. They were in a house with no kids, no responsibilities, no worries, nobody to interrupt their $ex filled fckng marathons.
> 
> What am I supposed to do with this, how do I compete with that? I can't that's just it, EI was accustomed to $ex like this for over a year, long lasting uninterupted $ex. I am just your average guy, not a marathon man, not hyped up on viagra or alcohol....just average guy. EI can't feel this pain, she can't cry with me, she can't understand what this does to my self esteem and manhood, I feel less than, like I'm seconds, like she settling for the bare minimum when she would really like more...like she was used to getting from the xOM.
> 
> This sucks, really sucks..and no one understands, well, I take that back, some on here might understand. NO, not sure anyone does, especially not EI.
> 
> sorry for the post I want to delete it, but I will post it mostly to show others after 5 months this still hurts sometimes and I could use some support right now.....


B1, sorry to read this. I was there in the beginning as well - thought a lot about sex performance and style. Felt inadequate although mrs. assured me that it wasn't any better wiith OM, just different. You tend to say; "yeah, right - why do do it with another guy if it ain't better?"

I have a mixed bag of ideas I used myself, use them if you like. 

I chose step up, took some advice from MMSL and implemented several over time. The result was actually a more confident me around and during sex.

I also shifted focus. I said to myself, that as long as she seems to like it and doesn't complain, I focus on enjoying myself in the moment. It works fine for me. Still have a glimps of the thoughts you have from time to time - but I tell myself emediatly "No more mr. Nice guy" - it almost does the trick.

Have you talked with IE about it? You say she doesn't understand it - sounds odd, since she has tried to be rejected back in the old days. I think the feeling would be kind of the same.

Hang in there B1, you are exactly who you are supposed to be, EI obviously loves you and I think you will deal with this together too.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> VERY rough morning, I had to actually pull over on the way to work and just cry. I cried for several minutes then called EI. Still hurting..and I feel more alone than ever. I am at work now, was ok, but now it's getting bad again. I just want to curl up and cry myself to sleep right now. I can't compete with with the viagra and alcohol induced $ex the om used when he was with EI. They were in a house with no kids, no responsibilities, no worries, nobody to interrupt their $ex filled fckng marathons.
> 
> You don't have to compete with that. That's not what EI fell in love with when you first got together. She fell in love with _you_, the lovemaking you had then and all the things you shared. She still loves all that, I just know it. It drips from what she writes about you.
> 
> What am I supposed to do with this, how do I compete with that? I can't that's just it, EI was accustomed to $ex like this for over a year, long lasting uninterupted $ex. I am just your average guy, not a marathon man, not hyped up on viagra or alcohol....just average guy. EI can't feel this pain, she can't cry with me, she can't understand what this does to my self esteem and manhood, I feel less than, like I'm seconds, like she settling for the bare minimum when she would really like more...like she was used to getting from the xOM.
> 
> I know how you feel, in that I can't compete with the spector of this other man who she felt she was falling in love with. But the man she's in love with is _you_. You are SO far from the "typical guy." Just look at how you've shared here, mentored people, worked so hard to make your marriage work. And it is working. You're just getting the "movies" again and making the worst of them. You are so much better of a man than he was.
> 
> And as far as her being able to cry with you, to understand about your self-esteem and manhood, well, she'll read it right here and respond. You are not the bare minimum by any stretch.
> 
> This sucks, really sucks..and no one understands, well, I take that back, some on here might understand. NO, not sure anyone does, especially not EI.
> 
> sorry for the post I want to delete it, but I will post it mostly to show others after 5 months this still hurts sometimes and I could use some support right now.....


It's a bad day today, for sure. I always say, "that's why God made tomorrow." Get through today, and tomorrow will surely be better. You know what strides you've made thus far. Nothing can take that away.


----------



## B1

Thanks CPACAN, 
I have read MMSL and I will go over some parts again. Your post though did make me stop and think. Yes, EI was rejected for years, she does know that pain, perhaps it is the same in a way? I just know that 
I am comparing and in someway competing with someone that did something with her that, to me, I can't. That, to me, is a little different, perhaps though, the pain isn't and it's probably not. But right now it's just so raw with me and it involves another person.

Me and EI have talked about this, and she says over and over I am enough, she is completly satisfied, but honestly, what else is she going to say.."honey your not as good as the xom, so can you step it up some?" EI isn't going to hurt me that way, she just isn't. But yes, we have discussed this in great detail. When I say she doesn't understand, I mean she can't understand what it's like to know your spouse had $ex with someone and it was fantastic and it was a lot, and it was great etc. That's all I mean by that. She is as caring as can be and saying all the right things, but facts are facts and I'm just not up to par with the xOM in bed. 

Bobka, thank you...
I know she loves me and chooses me..but as for being far better than the xOM, I'm not to sure about that either. She doesn't hate him, or even think he's a bad guy. He is seen as vulnerable also, taken advantage of, she feels sorry for him. So I'm not so sure I'm the better man in her mind, we very well may be on the same playing field? 
She loves me and wants me that's the difference. This, I guess, is what I need to focus on. I need to just understand that there $ex life is in the past, it's over and done with, even if it was better.


Hopefully, later today will be better, and I won't have to wait for tomorrow. Thanks again guys...


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> She loves me and wants me that's the difference. This, I guess, is what I need to focus on.


Like you said, _she chooses you_. There's so much more to concentrate on than the sex thing. It's just one piece of a much bigger marriage puzzle. I know I should talk, because of my concentration on the sex thing in my situation, but there really is so much more to it all. 

I also hope that later today is better for you, but, as a victim of depression, I can tell you that if you can make it to bedtime, you can make it to tomorrow. On the worst of days, sleep is your friend.


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> Thanks CPACAN,
> I have read MMSL and I will go over some parts again. Your post though did make me stop and think. Yes, EI was rejected for years, she does know that pain, perhaps it is the same in a way? I just know that
> I am comparing and in someway competing with someone that did something with her that, to me, I can't. That, to me, is a little different, perhaps though, the pain isn't and it's probably not. But right now it's just so raw with me and it involves another person.
> 
> Me and EI have talked about this, and she says over and over I am enough, she is completly satisfied, but honestly, what else is she going to say.."honey your not as good as the xom, so can you step it up some?" EI isn't going to hurt me that way, she just isn't. But yes, we have discussed this in great detail. When I say she doesn't understand, I mean she can't understand what it's like to know your spouse had $ex with someone and it was fantastic and it was a lot, and it was great etc. That's all I mean by that. She is as caring as can be and saying all the right things, but facts are facts and I'm just not up to par with the xOM in bed.
> 
> Bobka, thank you...
> I know she loves me and chooses me..but as for being far better than the xOM, I'm not to sure about that either. She doesn't hate him, or even think he's a bad guy. He is seen as vulnerable also, taken advantage of, she feels sorry for him. So I'm not so sure I'm the better man in her mind, we very well may be on the same playing field?
> She loves me and wants me that's the difference. This, I guess, is what I need to focus on. I need to just understand that there $ex life is in the past, it's over and done with, even if it was better.
> 
> 
> Hopefully, later today will be better, and I won't have to wait for tomorrow. Thanks again guys...


B1, i am going to say something that is obvious, you've said that you already know it -- but hear it again in a deep part of yourself:

EI loves *YOU*. 

so there is NO COMPARISON between the physicality with OM and the intimacy that she has with you now. i think of all the times that she has written, "I feel like the most cherished woman in the world!" 

i could almost cry every time i have read that. let yourself take in what that means, what it is that she is celebrating when she writes that!

B1, if i could ever, _ever_ have with my H the expression of love that the two of you are sharing together now, i can't tell you how much that would mean to me.... and how completely trivial it would be to even _think_ about irrelevant mechanical things like how long it lasted, etc.

the two of you chose each other after a trial by fire. and you are finding your way back to each other now at every level of the relationship -- physical, emotional, spiritual, and even just wonderful everyday togetherness. and that is beautiful and sweet. 

she's lucky and you're lucky


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Me and EI have talked about this, and she says over and over I am enough, she is completly satisfied, but honestly, what else is she going to say.."honey your not as good as the xom, so can you step it up some?" EI isn't going to hurt me that way, she just isn't. But yes, we have discussed this in great detail. When I say she doesn't understand, I mean she can't understand what it's like to know your spouse had $ex with someone and it was fantastic and it was a lot, and it was great etc. That's all I mean by that. She is as caring as can be and saying all the right things, but facts are facts and I'm just not up to par with the xOM in bed.


One other thing. From what I know about women, she's not thinking about the quality of the sex nearly as much as she's thinking about the quality of the man and situation attached to it. Ask her to verify this for you, as I think she'll agree with me.


----------



## CH

Any man on this board knows where B1 is coming from and can sympathize with him. To know that will almost destroy any man's relationship with their partner.

But as others have said B1, you need to focus on how E1 has been busting her behind 100% to try and fix this marriage. She's poured her heart out trying to help you in all of this. Focus on that part and build on it.

As to getting those thoughts out of your head, that's going to have to be on you. It's not easy and most men would just cut and run but you've got a loving wife now who's willing to stick it out through thick and thin now.

Focus on the good. Rooting for you and EI!!:smthumbup:


----------



## Acabado

Ah man, man. I'm so sorry you are having this bad day. Listen to me. I totally get it, trust me in this.
You still believe what she wanted from you is this but it wasn't, even if she told you so. I can even understand she believed for a while it was what she wanted. Truth is she just got lost in what she "needed", what she believed, the truth. At so many levels.
She never wanted marathon, alcohol+viagra induced sex. I'm not going to tell you she didn't enjoyed it, but is wasn't really what she wanted. 

I'm atheist, still I can see the truth when I hear it.
_"To a starving man, even what is bitter tastes sweet."_
Substitute, palliative, distraction, additives, junk food, sweeteners, colourings, saccharin, tofu, medication, painkillers, drugs...
Unhealthy things have no allure for someone who is whole and have their real needs met and their soul filled. 

I know you won't get relief in this, for now, specialy in days like this. I'm not deluded thinking it's not going to plague your thoughts from time to time. One day you will believe it. Really, finnaly, you will believe when you tell it out load. No weird reaction.

Stop competing, there's no race.
See the whole picture. Did you read your recent post about how nice whas to feel? That's what she always wanted, what she needs. A husband who could feel, who could feel her. She's not missing a thing now.


----------



## margrace

Acabado said:


> Unhealthy things have no allure for someone who is whole and have their real needs met and their soul filled.
> 
> See the whole picture. Did you read your recent post about how nice whas to feel? That's what she always wanted, what she needs. A husband who could feel, who could feel her. She's not missing a thing now.


:iagree:


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Acabado said:


> :iagree::iagree:She's not missing a thing now.


----------



## EI

*cpacan*, *bobka*, *margrace* and *cheatinghubby*.... thank you, thank you, thank you and thank you sooooooooo much for offering your support to B1 this morning. There is so much wonderful concern and support within all of you.

I will respond to all of this later. I have been texting with B1 all morning and juggling a million other things and I am headed off to IC within the hour..... 

While I was a little surprised to log on and see the explicitness of B1's posts, he and I have openly chosen to "share" our journey... all of it, the good, the bad and the mundane, here on TAM. It has been therapeutic for us and, I believe that it has been beneficial for a few others as well. We don't sugarcoat the hard stuff because how would that help the situation, us or anyone else, but we do love to share our victories, as well, in our reconciliation journey..... because it gives us hope and because your support and encouragement carries us through the hard days... like this. Thank you all so much.... You guys keep taking care of B1 until I can get back home from therapy and take over from there.

B1, I love you..... only you. You are giving me so much more than I ever imagined possible. I have told you many, many times that I would have settled for sooooooooo much less. I am so, so, so sorry that I hurt you. Sex is only one part of a happy, healthy and commited relationship. You satisfy me in every way possible. Honey, at 48, you and I are having the best sex of our lives.... it's mind blowing! How many people can say that? Really? How many people can, honestly, say that? We have been together for 31 years... and our intimacy has NEVER been like this.... ever.... and it's all because of you.

I never wanted to give you all of those details, but you insisted, you demanded and the *TAM*_ers_ insisted that I tell you everything that you wanted to know... and YOU asked for every single excruciating detail. I know what I said in my first post on TAM.... I said that the sex with the xOM was the best sex ever. You know what, at the time my affair began I was vulnerable, very, very vulnerable..... years of emotional and sexual rejection cut to the very heart of a woman. The xOM gave me sex.... but it was just sex.... and he listened to me, he let me talk, he let me pour my heart out..... BUT, I HAVE YOU, NOW, ALL OF YOU.... YOUR HEART, YOUR MIND, YOUR BODY AND YOUR SOUL... I know that I hurt you in the worst way that a woman can possibly hurt a man.... and I can't change that, I can't go back and undo what I did. No matter how much I wish that I could... I am so, so, so, so sorry. I truly thought that you didn't love me, I thought that you didn't care. You didn't like the sight of me or the sound of my voice.... You were never interested in anything that I had to say.... you just wanted me to leave the room. I felt so alone and without hope. I thought that you felt as trapped in our marriage by our children's needs and our financial obligations as I did. You seemed so much happier when I finally "left you alone." We didn't have sex for well over a year and you never once seemed bothered by it. ANY sex is going to rank higher than NO SEX, B1.

What WE have is sooooo much more than sex... but we ARE having GREAT, amazing, sex, great intimacy, a great friendship, a great partnership, we're parenting, together, now, so much better than we had the last few years. And, most of all...... what WE have is a GREAT LOVE. You are the love of my life... Can you just let me love you... because that's all I can do, now. I am in love with you..... again, so in love with you. But, I get scared, too. You are not the only one who is vulnerable here. I get afraid that you won't be able to heal... and I don't know what to do. I can't heal you, B1, I can only love you... and I do.... I'm sorry.

~EI :'(


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> Ah man, man. I'm so sorry you are having this bad day. Listen to me. I totally get it, trust me in this.
> You still believe what she wanted from you is this but it wasn't, even if she told you so. I can even understand *she believed for a while it was what she wanted. Truth is she just got lost in what she "needed", what she believed, the truth. At so many levels.*
> She never wanted marathon, alcohol+viagra induced sex. I'm not going to tell you she didn't enjoyed it, but is wasn't really what she wanted.
> 
> I'm atheist, still I can see the truth when I hear it.
> _"To a starving man, even what is bitter tastes sweet."_
> Substitute, palliative, distraction, additives, junk food, sweeteners, colourings, saccharin, tofu, medication, painkillers, drugs...
> *Unhealthy things have no allure for someone who is whole and have their real needs met and their soul filled.
> *
> I know you won't get relief in this, for now, specialy in days like this. I'm not deluded thinking it's not going to plague your thoughts from time to time. One day you will believe it. Really, finnaly, you will believe when you tell it out load. No weird reaction.
> 
> *Stop competing, there's no race.*
> See the whole picture. *Did you read your recent post about how nice whas to feel? That's what she always wanted, what she needs. A husband who could feel, who could feel her. She's not missing a thing now.*


Acabado, you always hit it right out of the park! You just get it! Thank you, so much. 

If I don't go, I'll be late for therapy. I'll be back on later, unless B1 needs me to just lay and cuddle with him, for a while, tonight.

I love you guys, all of you, so much!

Thank you.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Although I wrote this tune pre-A, it may describe how some of us BSs feel about our WSs. Or maybe the other way around. Either way, maybe you'll get a smile out of it: http://ultrasalonmilaca.com/FeelsLikePaintoMe.mp3


----------



## B1

Thank you everyone for your kind words, your words of wisdom and your support. It has been a very tough day. I am just now feeling a little better. Me and EI spent some time talking and working through some stuff. But honestly, it's nothing that hasn't been discussed many times before. 

I still feel a little beat up right now, so I don't have a lengthy post in me. 

One mantra I have been repeating over and over is; it's not a race, stop trying to compete! I know this, I just forgot it today.

Not really sure what the heck happened today, I was just struck by some evil thoughts on the way to work. I just kept hearing; "Your not enough...your not enough" I let it get to me, I couldn't stop it.

So, You all saw the results, I did reach out to EI and you all, so thanks again for being there. 

I'm going to go now, take a break, relax and chill and watch some pawn stars


----------



## CantSitStill

I know what you two are going through, I really do..fine one moment and it gets you out of nowhere. That's what happend to Calvin the other day and it's scary as hell. It's time to reset and try to look at the now instead of back. I know this crap eats you up but you made it this far, don't give up now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bobka said:


> Although I wrote this tune pre-A, it may describe how some of us BSs feel about our WSs. Or maybe the other way around. Either way, maybe you'll get a smile out of it: http://ultrasalonmilaca.com/FeelsLikePaintoMe.mp3


Loved it, bobka!


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> VERY rough morning, I had to actually pull over on the way to work and just cry. I cried for several minutes then called EI. Still hurting..and I feel more alone than ever. I am at work now, was ok, but now it's getting bad again. I just want to curl up and cry myself to sleep right now. I can't compete with with the viagra and alcohol induced $ex the om used when he was with EI. They were in a house with no kids, no responsibilities, no worries, nobody to interrupt their $ex filled fckng marathons.
> 
> What am I supposed to do with this, how do I compete with that? I can't that's just it, EI was accustomed to $ex like this for over a year, long lasting uninterupted $ex. I am just your average guy, not a marathon man, not hyped up on viagra or alcohol....just average guy. EI can't feel this pain, she can't cry with me, she can't understand what this does to my self esteem and manhood, I feel less than, like I'm seconds, like she settling for the bare minimum when she would really like more...like she was used to getting from the xOM.
> 
> This sucks, really sucks..and no one understands, well, I take that back, some on here might understand. NO, not sure anyone does, especially not EI.
> 
> sorry for the post I want to delete it, but I will post it mostly to show others after 5 months this still hurts sometimes and I could use some support right now.....


Man it hurts 2 yrs out. 5mos? It's still raw. Still very new. Best of luck. All I can offer is that one day it will lose it's sting. It will still try to hit you, but it loses it's punch.


----------



## B1

EI asked me to post real quick and tell everyone thanks and that she will post tomorrow, she's exhausted tonight. When I trigger bad like I did today it wears her out emotionally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I get how she feels, ugg it is exhausting. Hang in there you two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

EI,

I too was surprised by the content of and the indication of the depth of anguish in Betrayed1's post. It, to me, indicates that you need to either up or modify your game somehow or somewhat.

Your husband, no matter the reassurances you give him, knows he can't give you what you got from your lover. It's something that will always be a source of disappointment to him. He will always wonder about what you're thinking and probably worse to him you'll know what he's thinking. I suggest that you're going to have to counter that by changing your approach(es) to your reconcilliation.

Tonight you're mulling over the next post he says is coming tomorrow. Your posts as you've described them are completely and unrepentantly honest. I don't think or at least I hope you don't you thump your chest as you say that. I'd like you to consider one or two items before you hit the send button on your reply tomorrow. Your husband is evidently hurting almost or as much as we were shown months ago when he/you started posting.

In a recent post you depicted how you were relentless in the pursuit of your boyfriend. You practically knighted him and made it clear that you will always have a warm spot in your heart and mind for him. It may be true but how necessary was that and what impact did your post have on Betrayed1? It was telling to me. In your last post it almost or rather it did seem that you blamed your husband for asking for details of your sex life with your lover. Again you say you have only one way to respond whether it is on this forum or in your marriage but is being a completly "let the chips fall" authentic EI the best way to save your husband dignity and ultimately your marriage?

There are two posters you are familiar with (Regret214 and ChangingMe) that I gave two suggestions to. The first was to come to your husband's reconcilliation thread to see how it's done and the second was to tell them to hold onto their dignity so that any reconcilliation did not become a success that came with the taste of a mouthful of ashes. It's your job to give Betrayed1 the truth in a way that restores his dignity and doesn't leave him a mouthful of ashes. 

A while ago I asked you what you could have done to help your husband out of the dark pit he was in instead of being unfaithful and leaving him behind. You answered at length but if my memory serves you really didn't have an answer. I think you need to try harder to come up with an answer and live that realization going forward.

Good luck to you and Betrayed1

P.S. I think it was back in July that I suggested you change your user ID. It really shouldn't matter to you but I know you can come up with something better than EI. Just sayin.


----------



## cpacan

Well good morning Europe and Goodnight America 

Someone (not gonna mention any names) suggested that I should share my story for the benefit of all. I have added three links in my signature now. I had a breaf read myself, and I must admit that my journey deviates a bit from yours. For anyone interested, If you want the quick tour read first post in Part 1 and the last in Part 3 (maybe skim the rest), that would cover most of it.

My story shows why I envy those of you who are able to talk in depth about your relationship - god I miss that from time to time, and I don't know what I'll do when my sessions with my psychologist stops next week. I may increase TAM-sessions?

Have a nice day, and be gentle on each other out there.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> EI asked me to post real quick and tell everyone thanks and that she will post tomorrow, she's exhausted tonight. When I trigger bad like I did today it wears her out emotionally.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's tomorrow. How are you today, my friend?


----------



## cpacan

Bobka, "Like" to your song


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thinking of you B1, I hope your mood lightens today and your dark thoughts lift and leave you.
I don't really have any words of wisdom for you but EI loves you, that's so obvious to see, you'll get through this.
Take care
DG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

cpacan said:


> My story shows why I envy those of you who are able to talk in depth about your relationship - god I miss that from time to time, and I don't know what I'll do when my sessions with my psychologist stops next week. I may increase TAM-sessions?


cpacan, I went and read your story. 

I feel sad to say that it looks like you don't have much of a marriage, if that's all you're getting. 

I know it's hard to deal with an unfaithful spouse, and your situation is a bit different, with the aspect of you having been given that "free pass" and utilizing it to some degree (although you never really detailed whether this pass led to sex outside of marriage), but the bottom line is that your wife seems to have never truly accepted responsibility for her actions to the degree that she should. I assume, based on what I've read, that you are still together.

This strikes a note with me, because my WW, although she has expressed regret about what she did, has not taken full responsibility for what she did to us. Today we have a counseling appointment, and once again I'm going to bring this up, as it needs clarity.

It's too bad that so many of us have to slide along in marriages that are far from ideal, but, truth be told, they are often far from ideal whether there is infidelity or not. It's all about what you put into it, and if you're not getting a commensurate amount of satisfaction out of the marriage, the question is why be there?

I'm now asking myself this, knowing full well that I have the potential to have a great marriage. But I'm a cynical person, or at least was for most of my life. I now have hope, but I also wonder how much hope is of value. I know that "hope" is not a strategy, and that we need to make things happen. I just "hope" that I'm making my part of my marriage happen in a way that is satisfactory to both me and my mate. 

Thanks for sharing your story.


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> It's tomorrow. How are you today, my friend?


I am feeling, well, a little wore out mostly. EI is too.

Yesterday was hard, it wasn't normal, I broke, I just plain flat out broke, had there not been so many great responses I would still have gone back and deleted that post. It is a little embarassing now. But you know, it's how I was feeling, it was real and honest, and I needed support, and I have no one to really turn to other then EI and this board. 

There are still residual thoughts slipping in but overall they are under control. EI could not have been better, but this does drain her and puts her in a bad place too. Which, in turn, makes giving me support tough, but she does it. 

EI cannot heal for me, she can't help me much in this area. This is something that I have to work through and get over. Facts are facts and those facts sting very bad. I guess, in a way, I sort of looked backwards which I havn't done much of since DIG talked about the rearview mirror and JH ripped it out a while back  

I know EI has the whole package now, she isn't settling for crumbs like she was with the xOM. But, the sex was still there, and all the pain that goes with knowing that, is still with me. I can't help but to wonder, imagine, and yes, even compete with the xOM sometimes.

But, it's not a race or a competition, it's our marriage and that's the key. It's what we make it.

Thanks for asking bobka, and thanks again to all who posted and offered support.


----------



## ChangingMe

B1, I'm sorry yesterday was so difficult. I'm glad you're doing better today, and that EI was able to help you. 

I can only imagine how difficult it is to comprehend, and I can't speak for EI, but for me, I truly don't ever have any pleasant thoughts about the xOM, which includes sexually. If he crosses my mind, I am reminded about all I lost because of him and the damage I have caused, and that clouds everything else. 

When I am with my husband, I am still so focused on the fact that he is with me and making love to me that he is all I am thinking of. The sex we have is sex that MEANS something, and that is what makes it amazing. The 18 years we've known each other, the hell we have been through together, the vulnerability we feel with each other now counts for so much more than any pointless time with anyone else. I can imagine that when I tell DD that, he would say, "Yeah, right. Of course you would say that." (He has said that on occasion.) But it really is true.

I don't want anyone else but my husband in any way. And it's clear through EI's posts that she feels the same about you. And I think you are right when you say that you have to heal you in this situation, because this is your issue, not EI's. She's not doing the comparison, you are. That's not to say that it's not in your head because of her, but that she is not focusing on comparing you at all, unless it is to see how much higher you rank on all levels than xOM.

(Hope I didn't step on your toes trying to speak for you, EI, but I thought it might help B1 to hear how another WW can confirm that there is not comparison going on.)


----------



## ChangingMe

DD/CM Update

We went to counseling Monday, and I felt it was a good session. They are so exhausting, aren't they?!? Was going to write more about it, but right now I'm concerned about today. 

Yesterday went fairly well. Hung out after the kids went to bed for a bit. This morning, DD got up really early, then got back in bed when I woke up, and we joked around for about 20 min. 

This morning, around 10, I sent him an email that just said _Thinking of you._ He responded a minute later saying, 

_Thank you.

I have been in a real sad mood this morning.
That helped

A lot_

So that made me happy and sad -happy that the simple email I sent actually helped a bit, but sad that he was really sad. I emailed back and asked if he could meet for lunch, so we did. 

He was SO down at lunch. You could just see it, and it makes me tear up thinking about it. I wanted so badly to just put my arms around him, but I could tell it was paining him to be around me. Lunch was ok, but pretty awkward. He said he started feeling sad again yesterday. He told me that he actually started taking his Zoloft again yesterday, which tells me he was in a REALLY bad place, because he has really fought taking meds. It helped when he took them in late August/early September, so I am praying that it will help him again. He started out with half his dose, so it may be a while before it starts helping.

I am supposed to go to the neighborhood bunco group tonight with DD's sister, but I asked him if he wanted me to skip it. He said he didn't know what he wanted. I told him that I'd stay home with the kids and he could go do something if he wanted, and he said he didn't know about that. 

I sent him an email after I got back from lunch saying that I am sorry he is sad and that I will do whatever I can to help him. I checked with our friends (the couple that has been the best to us through this) to see if he could go to their house and hang out this evening, and they said yes, so I told him that, if he's up for it, I'll skip bunco and stay with the kids while he hangs out with them. I also of course told him that I would be more than happy to get a sitter and we could do something together, but that I also understood if he didn't want to be around me right now. 

Any other ideas on things I could do? What's the equivalent of sending flowers? I want so much to do some little "thinking of you" things, but it's hard for me to think of things that a guy would like. 

I hate that he's back in his dark hole. I hate that my actions have put him there. I want to hold him and drag him back up, but I don't know how. I'm so sad too.


----------



## CantSitStill

Changing me, the reassurance that you love him is good..Do it often. Write notes and make his lunch for him and surprise him with putting little love notes in his lunch. Keep doing what you are doing. Stay open to talk. Listen and let him vent his feelings. The hard thing is pulling those feeling out of the BS. At least it is for me but we are still working at it. Counseling should help also. I know how you feel, just never give up and let him know that you will never ever give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

ChangingMe said:


> Any other ideas on things I could do? What's the equivalent of sending flowers? I want so much to do some little "thinking of you" things, but it's hard for me to think of things that a guy would like.


Well, being a guy, I feel that words are plenty - the right ones, and those are the ones you used. Don't know if you've read the 5 Love Languages, but a lot of guys' love language is "words of affirmation". So when you affirm him, uplift him or just let him know you are aware of where he's at, you are doing the right thing. Chocolate helps, too.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> I am feeling, well, a little wore out mostly. EI is too.
> 
> Yesterday was hard, it wasn't normal, I broke, I just plain flat out broke, had there not been so many great responses I would still have gone back and deleted that post. It is a little embarassing now. But you know, it's how I was feeling, it was real and honest, and I needed support, and I have no one to really turn to other then EI and this board.
> 
> There are still residual thoughts slipping in but overall they are under control. EI could not have been better, but this does drain her and puts her in a bad place too. Which, in turn, makes giving me support tough, but she does it.
> 
> EI cannot heal for me, she can't help me much in this area. This is something that I have to work through and get over. Facts are facts and those facts sting very bad. I guess, in a way, I sort of looked backwards which I havn't done much of since DIG talked about the rearview mirror and JH ripped it out a while back
> 
> I know EI has the whole package now, she isn't settling for crumbs like she was with the xOM. But, the sex was still there, and all the pain that goes with knowing that, is still with me. I can't help but to wonder, imagine, and yes, even compete with the xOM sometimes.
> 
> But, it's not a race or a competition, it's our marriage and that's the key. It's what we make it.
> 
> Thanks for asking bobka, and thanks again to all who posted and offered support.


Hey B1 -- you should print this post off and stick it in your wallet and somewhere also at home. When you are having a bad day -- just read these words -- a very wise man made this post above. Sometimes we have to take our own advice -- and to do that we have to read something we wrote -- especially when are mind is in a "bad" place.

Take care my friend.


----------



## TDSC60

ChangingMe said:


> Any other ideas on things I could do? What's the equivalent of sending flowers? I want so much to do some little "thinking of you" things, but it's hard for me to think of things that a guy would like.


What are his hobbies?
What does he like to do with his "alone time"?
What makes him smile?
Does he exercise?
Read for entertainment?
Outdoor type stuff?

A simple little inexpensive gift that can be used by him for something he enjoys (or enjoyed) helps.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Haven't seen Dig around for a while? Everything ok with him? Or did I miss something?
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

ChangingMe said:


> DD/CM Update
> 
> We went to counseling Monday, and I felt it was a good session. They are so exhausting, aren't they?!? Was going to write more about it, but right now I'm concerned about today.
> 
> Yesterday went fairly well. Hung out after the kids went to bed for a bit. This morning, DD got up really early, then got back in bed when I woke up, and we joked around for about 20 min.
> 
> This morning, around 10, I sent him an email that just said _Thinking of you._ He responded a minute later saying,
> 
> _Thank you.
> 
> I have been in a real sad mood this morning.
> That helped
> 
> A lot_
> 
> So that made me happy and sad -happy that the simple email I sent actually helped a bit, but sad that he was really sad. I emailed back and asked if he could meet for lunch, so we did.
> 
> He was SO down at lunch. You could just see it, and it makes me tear up thinking about it. I wanted so badly to just put my arms around him, but I could tell it was paining him to be around me. Lunch was ok, but pretty awkward. He said he started feeling sad again yesterday. He told me that he actually started taking his Zoloft again yesterday, which tells me he was in a REALLY bad place, because he has really fought taking meds. It helped when he took them in late August/early September, so I am praying that it will help him again. He started out with half his dose, so it may be a while before it starts helping.
> 
> I am supposed to go to the neighborhood bunco group tonight with DD's sister, but I asked him if he wanted me to skip it. He said he didn't know what he wanted. I told him that I'd stay home with the kids and he could go do something if he wanted, and he said he didn't know about that.
> 
> I sent him an email after I got back from lunch saying that I am sorry he is sad and that I will do whatever I can to help him. I checked with our friends (the couple that has been the best to us through this) to see if he could go to their house and hang out this evening, and they said yes, so I told him that, if he's up for it, I'll skip bunco and stay with the kids while he hangs out with them. I also of course told him that I would be more than happy to get a sitter and we could do something together, but that I also understood if he didn't want to be around me right now.
> 
> Any other ideas on things I could do? What's the equivalent of sending flowers? I want so much to do some little "thinking of you" things, but it's hard for me to think of things that a guy would like.
> 
> I hate that he's back in his dark hole. I hate that my actions have put him there. I want to hold him and drag him back up, but I don't know how. I'm so sad too.


Try some handmade chocolates? Bake him something nice? Or how about one rose? A button hole for his jacket, maybe? A flower for his button hole. Not done so much, these days, but a nice sight, in times gone by.


----------



## ChangingMe

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. DD is not really into sweets or books or anything small and tangible. I attempted to ask him what he might like, and his response was that he would most appreciate me not having sex with his friends. Which I of course am not doing, but unfortunately can't change what I have done. 

So I did something kinda big and I don't yet know if he'll be happy about it or annoyed that I spent the money. But I bought us tickets to the Cowboys game this Sunday. Even though they aren't doing well, it is still our team, and we've discussed wanting to go to a game this season. It seemed like something fun that we could do that he would really like but probably wouldn't drop the money on. So we'll see. I just emailed him the info. 

Fingers crossed.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

ChangingMe said:


> Thanks for the suggestions everyone. DD is not really into sweets or books or anything small and tangible. I attempted to ask him what he might like, and his response was that he would most appreciate me not having sex with his friends. Which I of course am not doing, but unfortunately can't change what I have done.
> 
> So I did something kinda big and I don't yet know if he'll be happy about it or annoyed that I spent the money. But I bought us tickets to the Cowboys game this Sunday. Even though they aren't doing well, it is still our team, and we've discussed wanting to go to a game this season. It seemed like something fun that we could do that he would really like but probably wouldn't drop the money on. So we'll see. I just emailed him the info.
> 
> Fingers crossed.


This should be good.


----------



## EI

Hey guys, I'm here, hanging on.... B1 and I are doing what we have been doing for the last 5 1/2 months. We're talking, holding, hugging, touching, communicating... we're taking care of each other the best way that we can. B1 is really hurting right now and it has been hard for both of us these last few days. I don't think that this is a setback of any kind, as we couldn't be any more loving towards one another than we are right now. I think it's an unfortunate and inevitable consequence of my affair. The sad irony is that I had the affair and he is suffering the consequences.  It seems that the closer we get, the more we grow, and the greater the trust and security becomes, that "I" have become the worst "trigger" of all. We will be having a wonderful moment... and we have them, lots of them, every single day.... just simple day-to-day things that we enjoy together. Then, I see the flash of pain in his eyes or hear the sound of his breathing change.... because, I swear, I can even hear his breathing change from the next room and I can just tell..... and in an instant, I know that he is having a mind-movie or he is wondering if I've had a "moment" like that before.... with someone else. We can be holding hands and he'll tell me how much he loves my hands.... he has never "loved" my hands this much before in all of our 31 years together.... then, he'll just break down... sobbing. I don't begin to know how to make that kind of hurt go away. I wish I did because I'm a fixer, I try to fix things.... and people..... until I don't know how, anymore. It's a struggle for me when I can't "fix" something. I wonder if that is not, perhaps, one more layer for us to peel back. I know that he and I are looking at reconciliation as a journey, not a destination.... so, we just keep on doing it.... no quitting, ever..... but, it's scary. 


I know there are several posts that I need to respond to and I will, but I do have a lot of things to do in the real world vs. the TAM world.... so, when I have a little more time and energy I will.

To all of you who post here or even just silently follow this thread..... thank you. Be happy, take care of your loved ones, don't take a single day for granted... life can and, often, does change in an instant. Be kind, compassionate, loving, merciful and forgiving. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.... Does that always pay off?... NO, sometimes you still get hurt... but, knowing that you did your best allows you to look at yourself in the mirror every day without regret. If you don't like who you see when you look in the mirror then figure out who you want to be.... and be that person from this day forward.

Take care,
~EI


----------



## B1

At almost 6 months out, I have regressed some, not sure why. I am not throwing my hands up and quiting or anything like that. But for some reason the hurt has been raw again several times throughout the day. The only thing that's really changed is the new vitamins\Omega 3 I am on have made me more mentally alert, I am not as drained in the evening, I am not as sad. But then comes this, the raw hurt, and yes, even some mind movies that I haven't had in a long time. They are not near as long, meaning, I can stop them now, but they are bothering me again. I look at her and it hits me, he looked at her the way I do too, he wanted her, and had her also. 

I guess this is just part of it, the rollercoaster. I am NOT quiting, or giving up, not even close. I am just posting this mainly for others to see this journey and where I am in it. EI is doing all she can, but when I get down and hurt so does she. And when we are both down that's not good for us or the family. 

This morning she was reading some PM's she got and one person said they were worried about me, I just broke, so many people on here get this pain, they understand, and the know exactly what I am going through, maybe better then I do, and it's nice to just know that others understand this pain that's so darned unexplainable.

As you can see I had a rough morning again, lost it at home before work, but me and EI held each other and talked for about an hour before I left. Yes, I was very late to work too. EI isn't sure what to do with me right now and I understand that. This is something I have to work through, it's me, I have to fix me. EI really can't do much more than what she is doing. She is also staying so busy with family stuff right now and she is feeling stress from that too. She takes care of so much I don't want her to feel like she has to care for me too. I don't want my brokeness to be her burden, I know it's one she will take on, because that's her. 

I do love her so much, but this is very hard.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> I am just posting this mainly for others to see this journey and where I am in it.
> 
> This morning she was reading some PM's she got and one person said they were worried about me, I just broke, so many people on here get this pain, they understand, and the know exactly what I am going through, maybe better then I do, and it's nice to just know that others understand this pain that's so darned unexplainable.
> 
> I do love her so much, but this is very hard.


All of this is stuff that you will continue to go through, but you are not going through it alone. You very well know that it has been easier at times and harder at times, but you have stuck it out and hung in there as well as anyone possibly can. 

Keep it in front of us as much as you are comfortable with, but never let that slow down your R process. I'm just saying that there are those of us who look to you guys as a touchstone, something to compare to, and, to your credit (both of you), something to aspire to. 

We appreciate you guys!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

I have to confess at this point that the OM cannot be completely out of her life, due to work circumstances. I have hesitated to tell this, in that I knew I'd catch sh1t for it here, but that is the reality of the situation. 

So one of the things that haunts me is that he is, and will likely for a long time, be part of our lives. I know that (yes, I trust, since this was all out in the open) she is maintaining a proper distance, but I, too, get the mind movies, even when I know that they did not go beyond a kiss. 

Does anyone hanging around here have anything positive to say about managing a post-A with the AP still in the picture? I know it flies in the face of everything I've read here, but again, things are different in my world.


----------



## MattMatt

EI said:


> Hey guys, I'm here, hanging on.... B1 and I are doing what we have been doing for the last 5 1/2 months. We're talking, holding, hugging, touching, communicating... we're taking care of each other the best way that we can. B1 is really hurting right now and it has been hard for both of us these last few days. I don't think that this is a setback of any kind, as we couldn't be any more loving towards one another than we are right now. I think it's an unfortunate and inevitable consequence of my affair. The sad irony is that I had the affair and he is suffering the consequences.  It seems that the closer we get, the more we grow, and the greater the trust and security becomes, that "I" have become the worst "trigger" of all. We will be having a wonderful moment... and we have them, lots of them, every single day.... just simple day-to-day things that we enjoy together. Then, I see the flash of pain in his eyes or hear the sound of his breathing change.... because, I swear, I can even hear his breathing change from the next room and I can just tell..... and in an instant, I know that he is having a mind-movie or he is wondering if I've had a "moment" like that before.... with someone else. We can be holding hands and he'll tell me how much he loves my hands.... he has never "loved" my hands this much before in all of our 31 years together.... then, he'll just break down... sobbing. I don't begin to know how to make that kind of hurt go away. I wish I did because I'm a fixer, I try to fix things.... and people..... until I don't know how, anymore. It's a struggle for me when I can't "fix" something. I wonder if that is not, perhaps, one more layer for us to peel back. I know that he and I are looking at reconciliation as a journey, not a destination.... so, we just keep on doing it.... no quitting, ever..... but, it's scary.
> 
> 
> I know there are several posts that I need to respond to and I will, but I do have a lot of things to do in the real world vs. the TAM world.... so, when I have a little more time and energy I will.
> 
> To all of you who post here or even just silently follow this thread..... thank you. Be happy, take care of your loved ones, don't take a single day for granted... life can and, often, does change in an instant. Be kind, compassionate, loving, merciful and forgiving. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.... Does that always pay off?... NO, sometimes you still get hurt... but, knowing that you did your best allows you to look at yourself in the mirror every day without regret. If you don't like who you see when you look in the mirror then figure out who you want to be.... and be that person from this day forward.
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


EI, you see your husband suffering every day. And you know you are the cause of it.

Please do not think that you are not suffering from the consequences of what you did. Because I think you are.


----------



## calvin

bobka said:


> I have to confess at this point that the OM cannot be completely out of her life, due to work circumstances. I have hesitated to tell this, in that I knew I'd catch sh1t for it here, but that is the reality of the situation.
> 
> So one of the things that haunts me is that he is, and will likely for a long time, be part of our lives. I know that (yes, I trust, since this was all out in the open) she is maintaining a proper distance, but I, too, get the mind movies, even when I know that they did not go beyond a kiss.
> 
> Does anyone hanging around here have anything positive to say about managing a post-A with the AP still in the picture? I know it flies in the face of everything I've read here, but again, things are different in my world.


Nope,nothing positive to say about the AP at all bobka.
When we were in our first MC CSS would look around the room,put all the blame on me and just go through the motions of counseling so she could say "well,I did everything I could,I tried,I fought for our marriage",then it was back to daydreaming and texting,talking to the looser.
Get him out of the picture.
At least your wife hasnt told you she wants to "date" the om like my wife did.
Do what you have to,make sure your POS is gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

bobka, that's going to be tough, I understand that everyone can't quit their job. You have to do what you have to do. It's going to make it tough though especially if they have to interact.

It's got to be scary for you. How does she feel about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Haven't seen Dig around for a while? Everything ok with him? Or did I miss something?
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We haven't heard from Dig, (or Regret) either.... I'm a little concerned. I'm hoping that they are enjoying their reconciliation and are choosing to avoid TAM and all of the triggers that come with it. That's what I'm hoping..... but I'm still concerned.........


----------



## BjornFree

bobka said:


> I have to confess at this point that the OM cannot be completely out of her life, due to work circumstances. I have hesitated to tell this, in that I knew I'd catch sh1t for it here, but that is the reality of the situation.
> 
> So one of the things that haunts me is that he is, and will likely for a long time, be part of our lives. I know that (yes, I trust, since this was all out in the open) she is maintaining a proper distance, but I, too, get the mind movies, even when I know that they did not go beyond a kiss.
> 
> Does anyone hanging around here have anything positive to say about managing a post-A with the AP still in the picture? I know it flies in the face of everything I've read here, but again, things are different in my world.


Bob, you will only grow more and more disillusioned with the way your life is shaping out. I think its impossible to reconcile if the OM is still in the picture. You need to stop seeing yourself as a powerless victim in this situation. How do you know for certain that it didn't go beyond a kiss? You believed her when she said it was that way. 

Let me tell you that even honest and god fearing people can churn out lies out of thin air, it takes a lot of courage to tell the truth especially hen you know you are in the wrong. Have you scheduled a poly? Trust your wife, but trust your own judgement first and check facts to be sure.


----------



## daisygirl 41

bobka: I too am in the same position as you. My H still works with the OW in a situation that is impossible to avoid her. He has been off work now for about 4 months and its helped our R no end BUT he has to go back soon and I'll admit I'm dreading it. We are good our marriage is going well but I can't help worrying. I know I'm going to panic and the anxiety will come back, what if he sees her and wants her again? What if...... What if....... In some ways I'd rather him go back sooner than later so we can 'get the ball rolling' so to speak! He is looking for another job and really doesn't want to go back, he's acknowledged my fears and had done everything he can to reassure me..... But really, what more can he do!! The thing is my Hs A did come to its natural end, he finished it himself, not because I demanded it. He finished it because he missed me and his family and was devastated by what he had done. He realised himself he didn't love her, didn't want her or her kids and that the 'fantasy' was absolutely nothing like the reality, so that's what I hold on to. He knows there are no more chances, he knows what he has to lose!

B1and EI : you're in my thoughts. Hope things start to brighten up soon. Sometimes those dark moods disappear as quick as they appear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Mornig B1/EI and fellow TAMers

Continue thoughts and prayers for you both and everyone on this thread.

My day off and I am up ----

My Physical Therapy starts today -- so hopefully I will be able to get a good nights sleep soon.

Make the most of your day people -- one never knows what is ahead on this journey called life.


----------



## B1

Woke up this morning feeling MUCH better and EI was in a good mood too getting ready for holiday shopping. 

The morning started off great when I Filled the car up for $37...gas was $3.11 WOW!!

We have an early thanksgiving planned this Sunday with extended family then we will have our families over for thanksgiving day. EI is working so hard to make everything just perfect for all. 

btw: EI is a fantastic cook! 

Also, I like what JH said, it's worth a re-post: _Make the most of your day people -- one never knows what is ahead on this journey called life._


----------



## cpacan

bobka said:


> I have to confess at this point that the OM cannot be completely out of her life, due to work circumstances. I have hesitated to tell this, in that I knew I'd catch sh1t for it here, but that is the reality of the situation.
> 
> So one of the things that haunts me is that he is, and will likely for a long time, be part of our lives. I know that (yes, I trust, since this was all out in the open) she is maintaining a proper distance, but I, too, get the mind movies, even when I know that they did not go beyond a kiss.
> 
> Does anyone hanging around here have anything positive to say about managing a post-A with the AP still in the picture? I know it flies in the face of everything I've read here, but again, things are different in my world.


I won't bash you Bobca, but I will point out that this seems to be a catch 22.

I wonder how your wife will manage to see OM frequently and not get emotional and attracted? By the way, how do you KNOW that they only kissed??

So, maybe she will be attracted and do something she shouldn't - or she won't. But even IF she doesn't do anything, assuming she has your marriage in interest, how do you think your thoughts will behave? There will not be a single day where you will not think about them seeing each other - I think it will eat you up. And this will impact your relationship in a negative way.

So either way, I think you will loose. They can't be together while you try to reconnect with each other.

I know how I felt when it was a theoretical possibility for my wife and her OM to meet up. A few times she sneaked out, just to get a glance of him - I went ballistic and my thoughts and feelings were all over the place. OM has moved to the other end of the country with his family - and boy did that release some tension in me?!

I don't know how much you have pursued the possibilities of having him eliminated from her life - but I would take another look.


----------



## LetDownNTX

I dont think it really matters if the OW/OM works with them or not. Of course it is harder for you because you're always wondering whats going on while they are gone to work, but I promise you....you will worry anyway.

My WH was gone for 17 mos (seperation) while he worked with the OW, she left at the end of the 17 mos and he wanted to come back home saying he was done with her. She went to work 20 miles up the road and guess what..he still saw her and talked to her.

You have to either trust your spouse to be in a place to NOT contact the other person or to ignore them when they are contacted or you will just have to live in misery. I know that isnt comforting but that is how I have lived my life for the last 3 years. He can say he isnt seeing her but there is always that doubt in the back of my mind.

I sense your pain in your posts, Im sorry for all you are dealing with!


----------



## joe kidd

B1. At 6mos you are much further along then Pidge and I were. Hell, it took me that long just to get to the point where I wasn't angry everyday. 
If the anger creeps in , then let it ride. Pushing it down will only ensure it comes back in a more potent form later. 
Best of luck. 
For those that are wondering Pidge and I are doing well. I really thought the "new" pidge was an act that would vanish once she got comfortable again. It's been 2 yrs with little signs of how she used to deal with things. She is working hard and I love and appreciate her for the effort.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> B1. At 6mos you are much further along then Pidge and I were. Hell, it took me that long just to get to the point where I wasn't angry everyday.
> If the anger creeps in , then let it ride. Pushing it down will only ensure it comes back in a more potent form later.
> Best of luck.
> For those that are wondering Pidge and I are doing well. I really thought the "new" pidge was an act that would vanish once she got comfortable again. It's been 2 yrs with little signs of how she used to deal with things. She is working hard and I love and appreciate her for the effort.


its not easy,8 1/2 months in I still struggle.
Since my Dads in the hospital it seems we are getting closer but it also seem life crap on top of crap sometimes.
$3.11 a gallon B1? not bad,its $3.50 here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

calvin said:


> its not easy,8 1/2 months in I still struggle.
> Since my Dads in the hospital it seems we are getting closer but it also seem life crap on top of crap sometimes.
> $3.11 a gallon B1? not bad,its $3.50 here
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Threadjack - It's 7.95$ here


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## calvin

cpacan said:


> Threadjack - It's 7.95$ here


Wow!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> bobka, that's going to be tough, I understand that everyone can't quit their job. You have to do what you have to do. It's going to make it tough though especially if they have to interact.
> 
> It's got to be scary for you. How does she feel about it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She feels it's unavoidable, and I have to agree. Sometimes I think to myself, "well, it looks like you're going to have to live with an open marriage." That's a thought that is detestable to me, and I have to work on this further. Don't know really what to do about it, but have to keep monitoring and trusting. 

If I didn't know her better, I'd say that this is a perfect opportunity to take it underground, and she knows I know this. She wants badly to make this right, and she's "all-in", so she says.

I guess I have to realize that nothing is ideal, and nothing will probably ever be ideal again. Can our marriage survive this? I was going to bring up this issue further in our last counseling session, but we didn't have time to get to it. It's going to have to be the focus of our next one, as it's not going away, and I feel that couseling is where we have to work on the things we can't manage on our own.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

daisygirl 41 said:


> bobka: I too am in the same position as you. My H still works with the OW in a situation that is impossible to avoid her. He has been off work now for about 4 months and its helped our R no end BUT he has to go back soon and I'll admit I'm dreading it. We are good our marriage is going well but I can't help worrying. I know I'm going to panic and the anxiety will come back, what if he sees her and wants her again? What if...... What if....... In some ways I'd rather him go back sooner than later so we can 'get the ball rolling' so to speak! He is looking for another job and really doesn't want to go back, he's acknowledged my fears and had done everything he can to reassure me..... But really, what more can he do!! The thing is my Hs A did come to its natural end, he finished it himself, not because I demanded it. He finished it because he missed me and his family and was devastated by what he had done. He realised himself he didn't love her, didn't want her or her kids and that the 'fantasy' was absolutely nothing like the reality, so that's what I hold on to. He knows there are no more chances, he knows what he has to lose!
> 
> B1and EI : you're in my thoughts. Hope things start to brighten up soon. Sometimes those dark moods disappear as quick as they appear.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the same as with my WW, too. She realized that she didn't want OM, and brought the A to an end herself. She realized that I was who she wanted, that she wanted to be in a marriage with me. She, too, did not fall in love with OM, and in fact found him to be much less than she had built him up to be. So I know that I am "Plan A". I, too, have that to hold on to. 

Thanks for sharing this.


----------



## cpacan

bobka said:


> This is the same as with my WW, too. She realized that she didn't want OM, and brought the A to an end herself. She realized that I was who she wanted, that she wanted to be in a marriage with me. She, too, did not fall in love with OM, and in fact found him to be much less than she had built him up to be. So I know that I am "Plan A". I, too, have that to hold on to.


I believe that I was Plan A all along, but she just liked some extra attention and hot sex on the side - doesn't have to be one or the other, you know.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

cpacan said:


> I wonder how your wife will manage to see OM frequently and not get emotional and attracted?
> 
> The good part is that she doesn't really see him - he is 2 states away. But they have to email and/or text at times to conduct business.
> 
> So, maybe she will be attracted and do something she shouldn't - or she won't. But even IF she doesn't do anything, assuming she has your marriage in interest, how do you think your thoughts will behave? There will not be a single day where you will not think about them seeing each other - I think it will eat you up. And this will impact your relationship in a negative way.
> 
> This is the truest of truths. I am getting eaten up wondering if they will ever continue what happened before. Although I know she is dedicated to staying all-in with me, he, on the other hand, may have other ideas, and who knows what relentless pursuit will bring. Sometimes I just put my head in my hands and wonder why I'm trying so hard.
> 
> I don't know how much you have pursued the possibilities of having him eliminated from her life - but I would take another look.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

joe kidd said:


> For those that are wondering Pidge and I are doing well. I really thought the "new" pidge was an act that would vanish once she got comfortable again. It's been 2 yrs with little signs of how she used to deal with things. She is working hard and I love and appreciate her for the effort.


Yes, we were wondering, so thanks so much for the update. Keep working it!


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## calvin

Just keep your eyes peeled bobka.
It kinda worries me because of what the EX POS did to me and CSS,well,tried to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Just keep your eyes peeled bobka.
> It kinda worries me because of what the EX POS did to me and CSS,well,tried to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What did he do?


----------



## margrace

hi everyone:

i was corresponding with EI and realized that i had not checked in with all of you for a little while. good to catch up with your news this morning.

WH and i are still separated-but-under-the-same-roof while we figure out next steps. that's what i _think_, anyway... that's the last definitive thing that was said.

in the meantime, i have continued to take care of my own life the best that i can -- i am spending time with friends, following up on interests that i have, and things like that. 

last night, he said, "you seem better. you seem confident. unless you're faking." i said no, i do feel like i got something back.

i have not completely given up all hope for my marriage but WH is clearly confused and torn. he seems sad and refers vaguely to our not being together. he has quit couples counseling. he tells me that he doesn't know what he wants, he says "i love you," wants to squeeze my hand, wants to do lttle favors for me, etc. 

he asked me last night, i'm not doing anything to make this harder for you, am i? seemed like a strange question! "uh... i don't think so but i'm not sure what you mean," i said.

my sense is, i think he does love me in _some_ way, and is sad about losing the marriage but he is still angry about my pre-A behavior (?) and is also afraid of changing, afraid he can't change, afraid of his feelings, afraid of his shame, and has difficulty putting ANY of this into words.

he seems kind of dazed and stuck. 

i'm not pushing him to hurry up and decide something. i never even bring it up. at the same time, i am actively thinking about envisioning what my life without him will be if it comes to that. and at some point, it will be time to take some concrete steps in that direction... right? not sure how i will know when that time comes. maybe i'll just know when i know...?

what do you see in these tea leaves, R thread people?

xoxo mg


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## calvin

bobka said:


> What did he do?


Calls to me for months,pretty vulgar,challenges to fights (he alway ran),he was not happy that I broke it up before he got what he was after.
Calls went on for seven months til we went to the police.Last call was a month ago him telling me I ruined his life.
I didnt, he did but I did help him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

I got a PM this morning from an old poster we don't hear much from anymore, and I wanted to share with you guys some of what I said to him. He felt that my wife is a "serial cheater waiting to happen."

You know, we really don't know what it takes to make someone go astray; it's a combination of elements, and, if the situation is right, then I suppose my wife could "serially cheat." She did it once, and yes, she can do it again. I have to trust that the elements that were in place when she chose to cheat will no longer be in place. This thing with the OM is complicated, in that she cannot just walk from this client to another, and frankly, she has said that she needs to have contact with him for work. I can't do anything to fix that.

I can go through the rest of our marriage guarding my heart against a further involvement, and right now, that's what I'm trying to decide if I want to do. Some things cannot be changed.

I am now looking hard at trying to get her to limit contact as much as possible, but that's the best I can do. Due to finances and geography, walking away from my marriage is as complicated as it could possibly be. I may have to reframe the concept of traditional marriage to stay in this thing. I am pretty open-minded, and can go a ways toward this. 

In the end, I have to decide whether this "flavor" of marriage is right for me, for us. It will be a process.

I may be letting my emotions lead me at this point. The farther I get from the point of inception, the more clear things get.

I just wanted to talk about this "reframing of marriage" thing a bit, and get you guys' take on it. Everything you hear here is about keeping marriage the way it's "supposed to be", according to the traditional values espoused in this world. I just wonder if I may have to live it differently now.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> last night, he said, "you seem better. you seem confident. unless you're faking." i said no, i do feel like i got something back.
> 
> i have not completely given up all hope for my marriage but WH is clearly confused and torn. he seems sad and refers vaguely to our not being together. he has quit couples counseling. he tells me that he doesn't know what he wants, he says "i love you," wants to squeeze my hand, wants to do lttle favors for me, etc.
> 
> my sense is, i think he does love me in _some_ way, and is sad about losing the marriage but 2) he is still angry about my pre-A behavior (?) and is also afraid of changing, afraid he can't change, afraid of his feelings, afraid of his shame, and has difficulty putting ANY of this into words.
> 
> what do you see in these tea leaves, R thread people?


He does sound very confused. He seems to not be able to let go of the marriage as he once saw it, and may not actually want to let it go. You cannot see into his mind, however. 

As you know, I am a strong advocate of R, and will do what it takes, to a point, to get there. It needs two participants, however, and somehow I see him leaning in and out of your marriage. You have to decide whether at some point you are going to suggest that you resume working on the marriage. 

Thanks for updating us. Keep posting.


----------



## happyman64

bobka said:


> I got a PM this morning from an old poster we don't hear much from anymore, and I wanted to share with you guys some of what I said to him. He felt that my wife is a "serial cheater waiting to happen."
> 
> You know, we really don't know what it takes to make someone go astray; it's a combination of elements, and, if the situation is right, then I suppose my wife could "serially cheat." She did it once, and yes, she can do it again. I have to trust that the elements that were in place when she chose to cheat will no longer be in place. This thing with the OM is complicated, in that she cannot just walk from this client to another, and frankly, she has said that she needs to have contact with him for work. I can't do anything to fix that.
> 
> I can go through the rest of our marriage guarding my heart against a further involvement, and right now, that's what I'm trying to decide if I want to do. Some things cannot be changed.
> 
> I am now looking hard at trying to get her to limit contact as much as possible, but that's the best I can do. Due to finances and geography, walking away from my marriage is as complicated as it could possibly be. I may have to reframe the concept of traditional marriage to stay in this thing. I am pretty open-minded, and can go a ways toward this.
> 
> In the end, I have to decide whether this "flavor" of marriage is right for me, for us. It will be a process.
> 
> I may be letting my emotions lead me at this point. The farther I get from the point of inception, the more clear things get.
> 
> I just wanted to talk about this "reframing of marriage" thing a bit, and get you guys' take on it. Everything you hear here is about keeping marriage the way it's "supposed to be", according to the traditional values espoused in this world. I just wonder if I may have to live it differently now.


What marriage after An Affair and a true Reconciliation isn't "Reframed"???

She might be "all in" Bobka but I think you are not sure what this means. Wasn't she all in when she married you and exchanged vows with you???

So use counseling together to figure where your marriage is headed. Use it to understand what each of you want from your marriage and expect from your marriage.

Speaking for myself I could never be in an "open" marriage with the same person I chose to be in a monogamous marriage with.

I would feel that I would be compromising my values to stay married to that person while we each had two sets of values placed on that marriage.

And all the money nor logistics in the world would keep me from changing my values.

So listen to what your wife is saying Bobka. See if you could live with what she is looking for. 

Why should you have to change or compromise your values???

That decision is yours.

Just make sure you can live with yourself, not just her.


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## Acabado

joe kidd said:


> For those that are wondering Pidge and I are doing well. I really thought the "new" pidge was an act that would vanish once she got comfortable again. It's been 2 yrs with little signs of how she used to deal with things. She is working hard and I love and appreciate her for the effort.


I think it's great you are starting really to Believe it and to enjoy it, to enjoy life with her. I think you recent internal change is going to last. I'm so glad for it.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

I just want to say to you guys that I don't have a lot of friends. I live now in a very small town where we are surrounded by a lot of my wife's family, but mine, what little I have, is far away. I do have a church men's group that I attend, and there's some good guys there, but so far, no real connections.

I'm saying this now because I'm going through possibly the hardest time in my life, and am having, at the moment, a lot of doubts about how the future of my marriage might go. 

What I want to say is that you guys are my lifeline, a group of friends who care and will chime in no matter what, good or bad. I get the occasional PM from someone, and that is great, too. 

I just want you all to know how valuable this board is to me in my process right now. I'm obviously very focused on my marriage, and aside from counseling with our pastor, I don't get a lot of help. You guys are a great help. Thank you.


----------



## joe kidd

bobka said:


> I just want to say to you guys that I don't have a lot of friends. I live now in a very small town where we are surrounded by a lot of my wife's family, but mine, what little I have, is far away. I do have a church men's group that I attend, and there's some good guys there, but so far, no real connections.
> 
> I'm saying this now because I'm going through possibly the hardest time in my life, and am having, at the moment, a lot of doubts about how the future of my marriage might go.
> 
> What I want to say is that you guys are my lifeline, a group of friends who care and will chime in no matter what, good or bad. I get the occasional PM from someone, and that is great, too.
> 
> I just want you all to know how valuable this board is to me in my process right now. I'm obviously very focused on my marriage, and aside from counseling with our pastor, I don't get a lot of help. You guys are a great help. Thank you.


Old grizzled Catholic praying for you here man.


----------



## margrace

bobka said:


> I just want to say to you guys that I don't have a lot of friends. I live now in a very small town where we are surrounded by a lot of my wife's family, but mine, what little I have, is far away. I do have a church men's group that I attend, and there's some good guys there, but so far, no real connections.
> 
> I'm saying this now because I'm going through possibly the hardest time in my life, and am having, at the moment, a lot of doubts about how the future of my marriage might go.
> 
> What I want to say is that you guys are my lifeline, a group of friends who care and will chime in no matter what, good or bad. I get the occasional PM from someone, and that is great, too.
> 
> I just want you all to know how valuable this board is to me in my process right now. I'm obviously very focused on my marriage, and aside from counseling with our pastor, I don't get a lot of help. You guys are a great help. Thank you.


and i thank you for your help as well, bobka!


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## calvin

Southern Baptist here,I put you on my list yesterday and yes I prayed for you and others here.
It helps to have this support group.
Even though my wife is remorseful and sorry as hell,some days I just dont want to go on.
Its taking everything I have to stay right now.
Hang tight bobka.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

I've been a little overwhelmed with my own reconciliation, especially, these last few days, all while "trying"' to prepare for Thanksgiving (notice that I say trying) when up to 25 people will arrive, at my house, hungry, at 2:00 p.m., expecting the annual, picture perfect, Thanksgiving dinner. At the moment I'm not sure how I'll pull it off, but I will, because I have to and I always do. When I feel like this, it is difficult for me to post on this thread because it, actually, takes a lot out of me, emotionally, to do so. I tend to pour my heart out when I do. And, when I don't post, I feel guilty because I know what it's like to need a lifeline and to reach out and not find one there. So, I try to respond as much as I can..... because I do care about each of you and your happiness and your well being. Sometimes, all we can offer someone is some encouragement, hope or compassion, or we can simply let them vent and know that someone is "out there" paying attention. Everyone needs to feel heard and validated. B1 and I talk about many of you often. I know the boys wonder who all of these unknown people, with strange names, are that we worry so much about, since B1 and I rarely leave the house, together, except for our once a week night out to dinner. If I'm not posting, I'm still reading, so if you need someone to talk to just send me a pm. 

bobka, I'm glad you reached out. I'm glad that in the middle of the chaos that you find some comfort, here. Unfortunately, there are a lot of hurting people, here, as well. But, within all of that hurt, there lies compassion and understanding. We're here for you. We're all here for one another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

bobka said:


> I just want to say to you guys that I don't have a lot of friends. I live now in a very small town where we are surrounded by a lot of my wife's family, but mine, what little I have, is far away. I do have a church men's group that I attend, and there's some good guys there, but so far, no real connections.
> 
> I'm saying this now because I'm going through possibly the hardest time in my life, and am having, at the moment, a lot of doubts about how the future of my marriage might go.
> 
> What I want to say is that you guys are my lifeline, a group of friends who care and will chime in no matter what, good or bad. I get the occasional PM from someone, and that is great, too.
> 
> I just want you all to know how valuable this board is to me in my process right now. I'm obviously very focused on my marriage, and aside from counseling with our pastor, I don't get a lot of help. You guys are a great help. Thank you.



We are all here for you sir. All you have to do is reach out and we will be there. You are in my thoughts.


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## pidge70

> Southern Baptist here


Fallen Southern Baptist here.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Fallen Southern Baptist here.


I like to drink and have fun,I used to play piano for the church,was really involved.
I dont go much any more cause its my only day off.
I believe in God and the Bible.I dont believe you have to be in church to "go" to church.
I pray every night.
So yes I'm christian but I could be a better example.
Time to slam a beer before I go to the hospital to see Dad,it calms me down.
Bad year,her affair,Dads health problems,Mom isnt doing good.just wanna give up.
I'm thanknful for the support here,we all kinda lean on eachother a little.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> I like to drink and have fun,I used to play piano for the church,was really involved.
> I dont go much any more cause its my only day off.
> I believe in God and the Bible.I dont believe you have to be in church to "go" to church.
> I pray every night.
> So yes I'm christian but I could be a better example.
> Time to slam a beer before I go to the hospital to see Dad,it calms me down.
> Bad year,her affair,Dads health problems,Mom isnt doing good.just wanna give up.
> I'm thanknful for the support here,we all kinda lean on eachother a little.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Chin up! Sending positive vibes your way!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> I like to drink and have fun,I used to play piano for the church,was really involved.
> I dont go much any more cause its my only day off.
> I believe in God and the Bible.I dont believe you have to be in church to "go" to church.
> I pray every night.
> So yes I'm christian but I could be a better example.
> Time to slam a beer before I go to the hospital to see Dad,it calms me down.
> Bad year,her affair,Dads health problems,Mom isnt doing good.just wanna give up.
> I'm thanknful for the support here,we all kinda lean on eachother a little.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For someone who says they "just wanna give up," you sure have a lot of life in you! Keep rockin' it, Calvin!


----------



## calvin

bobka said:


> For someone who says they "just wanna give up," you sure have a lot of life in you! Keep rockin' it, Calvin!


Thanks bobka,think i need to hear more stuff like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> I just want to say to you guys that I don't have a lot of friends. I live now in a very small town where we are surrounded by a lot of my wife's family, but mine, what little I have, is far away. I do have a church men's group that I attend, and there's some good guys there, but so far, no real connections.
> 
> I'm saying this now because I'm going through possibly the hardest time in my life, and am having, at the moment, a lot of doubts about how the future of my marriage might go.
> 
> What I want to say is that you guys are my lifeline, a group of friends who care and will chime in no matter what, good or bad. I get the occasional PM from someone, and that is great, too.
> 
> I just want you all to know how valuable this board is to me in my process right now. I'm obviously very focused on my marriage, and aside from counseling with our pastor, I don't get a lot of help. You guys are a great help. Thank you.


bobka, I am so glad you found a home and support on this thread. So sorry your hurting and your so alone. I do understand that part, I don't really have anyone other than EI, my counselor and this board to talk to either.

We are here for you just a post or pm away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

joe kidd said:


> Old grizzled Catholic praying for you here man.


so few words, so much feeling


----------



## margrace

calvin said:


> Southern Baptist here,I put you on my list yesterday and yes I prayed for you and others here.
> It helps to have this support group.
> Even though my wife is remorseful and sorry as hell,some days I just dont want to go on.
> Its taking everything I have to stay right now.
> Hang tight bobka.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you hang tight too calvin! you and your family will be in my thoughts


----------



## margrace

EI said:


> I've been a little overwhelmed with my own reconciliation, especially, these last few days, all while "trying"' to prepare for Thanksgiving (notice that I say trying) when up to 25 people will arrive, at my house, hungry, at 2:00 p.m., expecting the annual, picture perfect, Thanksgiving dinner. At the moment I'm not sure how I'll pull it off, but I will, because I have to and I always do. When I feel like this, it is difficult for me to post on this thread because it, actually, takes a lot out of me, emotionally, to do so. I tend to pour my heart out when I do. And, when I don't post, I feel guilty because I know what it's like to need a lifeline and to reach out and not find one there. So, I try to respond as much as I can..... because I do care about each of you and your happiness and your well being. Sometimes, all we can offer someone is some encouragement, hope or compassion, or we can simply let them vent and know that someone is "out there" paying attention. Everyone needs to feel heard and validated. B1 and I talk about many of you often. I know the boys wonder who all of these unknown people, with strange names, are that we worry so much about, since B1 and I rarely leave the house, together, except for our once a week night out to dinner. If I'm not posting, I'm still reading, so if you need someone to talk to just send me a pm.
> 
> bobka, I'm glad you reached out. I'm glad that in the middle of the chaos that you find some comfort, here. Unfortunately, there are a lot of hurting people, here, as well. But, within all of that hurt, there lies compassion and understanding. We're here for you. We're all here for one another.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EI dear, you work so hard in all that you do! and i can imagine how easy it is for the people in your life to love you for that and come to expect it ... even here on this thread! for all the joking around that we do about EI's long posts, i think that we all look forward to them, and appreciate them, and even wait for them at times.

those thoughtful posts where you multi-quote and respond thoughtfully to each of us, always mentioning us by name, always willing to pour out your heart -- those are the seven-course thanksgiving dinners that you and B1 serve to us week after week after week!

i know i'm speaking for others too when i say that we don't take that for granted! at the same time, i love the idea of you and B1 feeling like you can step away for a bit to focus on each other and your family or even just to rest up.

warm pre-holiday wishes to all -- mg


----------



## daisygirl 41

margrace said:


> EI dear, you work so hard in all that you do! and i can imagine how easy it is for the people in your life to love you for that and come to expect it ... even here on this thread! for all the joking around that we do about EI's long posts, i think that we all look forward to them, and appreciate them, and even wait for them at times.
> 
> those thoughtful posts where you multi-quote and respond thoughtfully to each of us, always mentioning us by name, always willing to pour out your heart -- those are the seven-course thanksgiving dinners that you and B1 serve to us week after week after week!
> 
> i know i'm speaking for others too when i say that we don't take that for granted! at the same time, i love the idea of you and B1 feeling like you can step away for a bit to focus on each other and your family or even just to rest up.
> 
> warm pre-holiday wishes to all -- mg


^^^^^^^^^ totally agree!
How are you Margrace?
Ive been thinking of you and hoping you are doing ok. 
Xx

Hope you all have a good weekend
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

I am in a much better place as of yesterday. However, I left EI in a bit of a darker place, she's ok for the most part but still struggling with some things. Please keep her in your prayers...ok, and me to 

Thanks again for ALL the support, the PM's, and for being there. 

Hope everyone has a great weekend...


----------



## SomedayDig

So, a few weeks back I was in with my IC. The dude and I are definitely a good fit. We both swear, though I'd imagine he does it more to make me comfortable. We both are big music fans. He is a good listener and speaks up when something might not sound right in my story.

Anyways, I was talking about some of the things that I'm dealing with and he gave me some good pointers on how to deal with triggers and other things. Then, he asked if I thought some of my issues might be connected to obsessing about the affair instead of truly trying to heal.

I had to think about that. Really think about it.

See, that's why the past few weeks I haven't really been around. Yeah, I've popped in to read this thread a couple times, but other than that I haven't "needed" TAM as of late. It's okay to have a need to be here. Heck, it helped Regret and I through some really tough times. I just think the point where I am today is one where it is more of a detriment to be here...reading the stories and posting, and I don't want that to happen. 

I'm thankful for this place. I really am. I just don't need to be here at this point. I'd like to be able to continue to post and maybe once in a while help a hurt soul out.

Maybe soon.


EDIT: I'm not going to do one of those silly "goodbye" threads that people here do. Mostly cuz they're back within a week. I'm not looking for people to say goodbye and good luck and all that crap. I just wanted you guys to know where I am.


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> ^^^^^^^^^ totally agree!
> How are you Margrace?
> Ive been thinking of you and hoping you are doing ok.
> Xx
> 
> Hope you all have a good weekend
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you for your thoughts, dg

i am a strange but not horrible place that i think you were in as well for a while. i have pulled back to focus on myself and i am actually having some success in doing that -- so much so that i am envisioning and making plans for a life without H. many times, i like what i see ahead, but it's a bittersweet kind of improvement. i'm grateful to be out of the bottomless pit of suffering, and i'm grateful to see and believe that life goes on. at the same time, it's a sad ending to our story, and not the one i ever wanted.

WH seems down, dazed, head in hands, occasionally teary. still sees us as separated (although we live together) yet behaves like my H in many ways. it's like he can't go forward and he can't go backward and he can't say what he feels or wants and he can't ask for help. 

his thoughts and feelings are a mystery to me right now and i don't ask.

how did you handle this part of things? did you actively invite H to discuss what what going on?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> EI dear, you work so hard in all that you do! and i can imagine how easy it is for the people in your life to love you for that and come to expect it ... even here on this thread! for all the joking around that we do about EI's long posts, i think that we all look forward to them, and appreciate them, and even wait for them at times.
> 
> those thoughtful posts where you multi-quote and respond thoughtfully to each of us, always mentioning us by name, always willing to pour out your heart -- those are the seven-course thanksgiving dinners that you and B1 serve to us week after week after week!
> 
> i know i'm speaking for others too when i say that we don't take that for granted! at the same time, i love the idea of you and B1 feeling like you can step away for a bit to focus on each other and your family or even just to rest up.
> 
> warm pre-holiday wishes to all -- mg


Hear, hear! Ditto on this!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Reconcilers, what is your holiday going to look like? With all that's going on in your marriage, how are you going to conduct Thanksgiving? Will it be traditional, with family all together, will we just smile through the pain and eat our turkey, or are things going to be different?

Us, we will be smiling through the pain. The kids are coming up the night before Thanksgiving (I won't be there because I have a gig), and then will celebrate with us at one of the sisters' houses, the one who always hosts Thanksgiving. So we don't have a lot of responsibility, other than to provide a dish and show up. 

We really dodged a bullet when it turned out that we didn't have to tell the kids we were separating. I know that WW was waiting to see the outcome of her trip before we informed them. So they knew nothing of our troubles, and still don't. 

Again, we are doing pretty well in most areas, but there's always that underlying something-or-other that stands in the way of us being completely "normal'. I suppose that will come with time, and for now we can only have patience with one another and keep working through the sticky issues.


----------



## B1

Dig, glad to see you two are doing well. Glad your in a good place. Your post however got me to thinking...

_"Then, he asked if I thought some of my issues might be connected to obsessing about the affair instead of truly trying to heal."_

*Healing:* growing sound; getting well; mending.

*obsessing:* Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety.

WOW, that has me thinking now...first thought is..of course I am obsessing over the affair and some of the details, why wouldn't I, it's what we BS's do...you can't really help it.

So, I guess, obsessing does not equal healing...ok, I can grasp that one, so how do you NOT obsess? and by not obsessing does that mean you are ignoring your pain, stuffing it down?

I have thought it would be nice to take all this and just shove it under the rug now, I have faced everything I am going to face head on, there are no more details, nothing new, everything that I obsess about or think about is something I have already thought about, talked about, obsessed about and more.

EI and I have covered it all over and over. Is it time to put it away? is that even possible? 

The hurt is the driving force here for me, not anger or bitterness, just hurt. Trying to heal this hurt is what's so tough.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> his thoughts and feelings are a mystery to me right now and i don't ask.
> 
> how did you handle this part of things? did you actively invite H to discuss what what going on?


I know you didn't ask me this, but I think that, if you're doing the 180 right now, it's advised that you don't approach him about his feelings about things, but, for the sake of what may be left of your marriage, you may want to give him this opening. It really depends on what you want to get out of it. It is, now, all about _you._


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Dig, glad to see you two are doing well. Glad your in a good place. Your post however got me to thinking...
> 
> _"Then, he asked if I thought some of my issues might be connected to obsessing about the affair instead of truly trying to heal."_
> 
> *Healing:* growing sound; getting well; mending.
> 
> *obsessing:* Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety.
> 
> WOW, that has me thinking now...first thought is..of course I am obsessing over the affair and some of the details, why wouldn't I, it's what we BS's do...you can't really help it.
> 
> So, I guess, obsessing does not equal healing...ok, I can grasp that one, so how do you NOT obsess? and by not obsessing does that mean you are ignoring your pain, stuffing it down?
> 
> If it comes down to how much energy, psychic energy you spend on each of these elements, doesn't it boil down to which you want to expend that energy on? I know we can't stop thinking about what our wives did, but do we want to stay in that place indefinitly, or back out, little by little, to where the pain is further away and the healing is front and center?
> 
> I have thought it would be nice to take all this and just shove it under the rug now, I have faced everything I am going to face head on, there are no more details, nothing new, everything that I obsess about or think about is something I have already thought about, talked about, obsessed about and more.
> 
> I think that, if you've faced everything you can face, you'd not be rug-sweeping at all. You'd be moving on.
> 
> EI and I have covered it all over and over. Is it time to put it away? is that even possible?
> 
> The hurt is the driving force here for me, not anger or bitterness, just hurt. Trying to heal this hurt is what's so tough.


The hurt is the part that you have to work on together, and you do, and so well. It's up to you guys, individually, when you move on, and when you stay stuck.

Can we ever say that this process will be "all over"?


----------



## bfree

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> i was corresponding with EI and realized that i had not checked in with all of you for a little while. good to catch up with your news this morning.
> 
> WH and i are still separated-but-under-the-same-roof while we figure out next steps. that's what i _think_, anyway... that's the last definitive thing that was said.
> 
> in the meantime, i have continued to take care of my own life the best that i can -- i am spending time with friends, following up on interests that i have, and things like that.
> 
> last night, he said, "you seem better. you seem confident. unless you're faking." i said no, i do feel like i got something back.
> 
> i have not completely given up all hope for my marriage but WH is clearly confused and torn. he seems sad and refers vaguely to our not being together. he has quit couples counseling. he tells me that he doesn't know what he wants, he says "i love you," wants to squeeze my hand, wants to do lttle favors for me, etc.
> 
> he asked me last night, i'm not doing anything to make this harder for you, am i? seemed like a strange question! "uh... i don't think so but i'm not sure what you mean," i said.
> 
> my sense is, i think he does love me in _some_ way, and is sad about losing the marriage but he is still angry about my pre-A behavior (?) and is also afraid of changing, afraid he can't change, afraid of his feelings, afraid of his shame, and has difficulty putting ANY of this into words.
> 
> he seems kind of dazed and stuck.
> 
> i'm not pushing him to hurry up and decide something. i never even bring it up. at the same time, i am actively thinking about envisioning what my life without him will be if it comes to that. and at some point, it will be time to take some concrete steps in that direction... right? not sure how i will know when that time comes. maybe i'll just know when i know...?
> 
> what do you see in these tea leaves, R thread people?
> 
> xoxo mg


I'm coming in a little late here but I'll post anyway.

When someone has checked out of the marriage its usually for a reason that is important to them. They won't check back in if they think the marriage will go back to what is was when they checked out. If the reason that caused them to check out is changed or eliminated they often won't believe the change is real. If they come to see and believe that the marriage is going to be different they might consider coming back to the marriage at that point and try to work on things including their own issues.

Margrace, that is what I see here. There were obviously issues in the marriage that your H considered severe. Of course his way of dealing with those issues (his affair) was incredibly selfish and hurtful. But if he is seeing a changed you he might be reevaluating what he things of you and the marriage. It sounds like right now he is questioning whether those changes are real or not but it is still giving him pause to reconsider his chosen path.

My suggestion is keep doing what is best for you and if he chooses to come back to you it is you choice whether to accept him back or tell him that things have gone too far. Either way you need to do what is right for you.


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## B1

bobka said:


> I know you didn't ask me this, but I think that, if you're doing the 180 right now, it's advised that you don't approach him about his feelings about things, but, for the sake of what may be left of your marriage, you may want to give him this opening. It really depends on what you want to get out of it. It is, now, all about _you._


Margrace, I am with bobka here. however, I am leaning more towards not asking. But, like bobka said, it is all about you and what you want.


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## bfree

betrayed1 said:


> VERY rough morning, I had to actually pull over on the way to work and just cry. I cried for several minutes then called EI. Still hurting..and I feel more alone than ever. I am at work now, was ok, but now it's getting bad again. I just want to curl up and cry myself to sleep right now. I can't compete with with the viagra and alcohol induced $ex the om used when he was with EI. They were in a house with no kids, no responsibilities, no worries, nobody to interrupt their $ex filled fckng marathons.
> 
> What am I supposed to do with this, how do I compete with that? I can't that's just it, EI was accustomed to $ex like this for over a year, long lasting uninterupted $ex. I am just your average guy, not a marathon man, not hyped up on viagra or alcohol....just average guy. EI can't feel this pain, she can't cry with me, she can't understand what this does to my self esteem and manhood, I feel less than, like I'm seconds, like she settling for the bare minimum when she would really like more...like she was used to getting from the xOM.
> 
> This sucks, really sucks..and no one understands, well, I take that back, some on here might understand. NO, not sure anyone does, especially not EI.
> 
> sorry for the post I want to delete it, but I will post it mostly to show others after 5 months this still hurts sometimes and I could use some support right now.....


I know I'm coming in late here and maybe others have already said this. B1, men and women see sex in such different ways. For men its 90% of the physical. We see it as the act itself and what transpires around the act. For women it is so much different. It is the cementing of an emotional bond. When women say that sex for them starts outside the bedroom they aren't kidding. In your particular case, EI has stated that she was feeling very alone. She, like all women, has a physical need for sex as well so when she wasn't getting her needs met at home that made her vulnerable to outside influences. Obviously she didn't handle it in the correct way but you need to understand that for her the sex was NOT better in any way than what she had with you prior to the problems starting and what she has with you now. She was dying of thirst and drank whatever was available but it was not what she really wanted or even needed. For women, they can satisfy the physical need for sex but it does not satisfy their emotional need for love. Its empty. When she makes love with you B1, EI can let down her barriers and truly feel each and every feeling, physically, emotionally and even spiritually. She can never have that feeling of complete and total vulnerability with anyone else. She can never truly trust anyone else with her heart. You have her heart and her soul. The OM never got that. No one but you can get that.


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## daisygirl 41

margrace said:


> thank you for your thoughts, dg
> 
> i am a strange but not horrible place that i think you were in as well for a while. i have pulled back to focus on myself and i am actually having some success in doing that -- so much so that i am envisioning and making plans for a life without H. many times, i like what i see ahead, but it's a bittersweet kind of improvement. i'm grateful to be out of the bottomless pit of suffering, and i'm grateful to see and believe that life goes on. at the same time, it's a sad ending to our story, and not the one i ever wanted.
> 
> WH seems down, dazed, head in hands, occasionally teary. still sees us as separated (although we live together) yet behaves like my H in many ways. it's like he can't go forward and he can't go backward and he can't say what he feels or wants and he can't ask for help.
> 
> his thoughts and feelings are a mystery to me right now and i don't ask.
> 
> how did you handle this part of things? did you actively invite H to discuss what what going on?


Margrace
You are doing a fab job. I did exactly as you are doing now.
I stopped asking H about his feelings, thoughts etc as he just didn't have any answers to give. He was in a dark, confused place, not a rational one at all.
What I DID tell him though was that my door would always be open to him if he ever wanted to talk and I also told him that I forgave him. That hit him for 6 to be honest because I think he expected me to be more angry and unforgiving, but I just didn't feel that way. As hard as it was I just let him go. I stopped all relationship talk, stopped txtin him and really pulled back. 

During my IC my therapist identified that I was a 'rescuer' and a 'fixer'. This realisation really hit home with me. So I decided to stop worrying about him, stop trying to fix him, fix us, and concentrate on me and the kids. It really helped.

I remember laying in bed one night. My daughter lying next to me, feeling so low and so heavy hearted, I felt like I just wanted to curl up in a ball and die. Then something happened, it was like an 'aha' moment. I realised I had a LOT to live for. 3 beautiful children, a lovely home, good job, and I just took a deep breathe and let it go. I decided enough was enough, I prayed for strength to help me through it all and I prayed that my H would have the strength to choose the right path. I felt stronger after that night. 

Sorry I've gone off the point there somewhat just continue what you are doing. Don't push for the relationship/future chats but just let him know you are open to talk if he wants too.
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

thank you, bfree, bobka, B1, and daisy!

okay, sounds pretty much like a consensus: keep doing what i am doing, and don't initiate conversations about where things are going.

those suggestions fit for me, in that this new focus on taking care of my life has really saved me and i feel comfortable staying here for a while. i have my own IC to continue working on my issues, so i can have those relationship conversations there.

and like you, daisy, it's been a time for me to reconnect with my gratitude for the many wonderful things that i have in my life: my friends, my family, my work.... being in so much emotional pain was shrinking my perspective down to just trying to survive that pain.

maybe it's also helping me move from obsessing toward healing (picking up on dig's comments)? 

i do still feel those little surges of anger when i think about certain things, especially the lies.

on the other hand, i'm so used to caring about how H feels that sometimes it's difficult not to ask him about it when i see him looking down.... but i really wasn't helping when i was trying to do all the work for both of us.

thank you again!


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## joe kidd

pidge is off to see a friend. I felt bad because she asked me if she could as if I was her father. I understand that she feels she has to ask. 

I didn't think twice about saying yes. My feeling are this....if after 2 yrs of heaven and hell she wants to do something stupid then there was no chance anyway. She knows this. You have to trust sometime.


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## SomedayDig

B1 and all of ya's who are dealing with this crap of infidelity. Here's my take. It's pretty simple and complex all in the same. I obsess. I do it and I know it's just the way it is. It's what some of us BS's do. I get that. I've lived that for 8 f'ng months.

Until a few weeks ago. When I decided after talking to my IC that there is a difference between healing and obsessing. 

While you might think that NOT obsessing could be a form of rug sweeping, I'm of the idea that it just ain't healthy for me. Period.

I have sat for days at a time at my laptop while the world went around and looked at Regret's emails from the last year and looked at the cell records and paypal records. I can spend 5 hours looking at crap like that and not be phased.

Until I realize just how much of my life I just spent looking in the rear view mirror and obsessed over it.

I could have spent more time in the gym. Spent more time prospecting for home buyers. Spent time writing music or poetry or another book.

I could have spent time in the peace and solitude of meditation. Focus on me rather than that. Cuz in the end it's ME that matters most.

Don't ever rugsweep. That is a horribad idea. Don't ever give in cuz that's resignation.

BUT...don't obsess because what I've learned from my own obsessing is that it is more harmful than good-ful (just made that up cuz I wanted to). Our lives are intricately more important. We just need to be enlightened to that. And enlightenment can truly only come from within.

B1...Brother...do NOT think you just "put it away". No. That is not what I have found out.

What I have found out is that advice I gave to a couple back in May of this year...the same advice that I shared with you via email a few months ago. We simply can not drive in a straight line (reconciliation) if we continue to look in the rear view mirror (obsessing). Yes, we MUST check the rear view ever now and then, but do you stare into it or just give it a glance to get your bearings of your surroundings? I suggest the latter. That is okay. That is good. Our wives committed the most heinous crime against the sanctity of our marriage, and to be honest...their repentance is of utmost importance to OUR forgiveness.

This past week, in an effort to move toward forgiveness, Regret and I have begun a talk. See, when I discovered and uncovered her affair it did one huge drastic thing. It FORCED her to come clean with me and that is quite different than confession. True confession comes from the WS (in this instance) sitting the BS down and telling what happened WITHOUT questions from the BS. That is where I have lived...in asking Regret thousands of questions when in fact she simply needed to just CONFESS what she had done without my questioning.

She has spent a total of 3 hours...uninterrupted...confessing to me her affair. I have maybe spoken 5 minutes during her time. Its her time to come clean.

It's what I need. I need her to finally confess, even though I've asked all the questions and had them answered - I NEED her to simply confess without questions. To talk.

And it has been good. It has been difficult. 

Then again...this sh-t ain't for the weak of heart.


----------



## CantSitStill

Thanks for posting that Dig..it helps alot of people who I'm sure are obcessing. This is hard stuff, you two are about the same as us timewise. The holidays make it hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I cannot stand to read the stories much anymore, I know Calvin does while he's at work. It's easier for now for me to stay in my few subscribed threads. Emotionally just can't handle it. One day I'll be ready to start helping others again but right now I need the help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

CSS...here's an issue regarding holidays. Regret NEVER spent time with him on holidays, however...........she was with him 1 year ago tonight. At the same hotel that I found the receipt from. It was the first time they met there. The second time is when I discovered her.

I want everyone to know that I understand obsessing. Fck! I've done it to a T and I'm really f'ng good at it!

But it ain't good. For any of us.

Regret told me that tonight is about me. I look forward to the kids going to bed


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## calvin

I spent the holidays alone,I've done thanksgiving for years,that was about the time I saw the love horoscopes on her phones history.
Eight months after d day and I still cant stop thinking about it and feel like crap
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

calvin said:


> I spent the holidays alone,I've done thanksgiving for years,that was about the time I saw the love horoscopes on her phones history.
> Eight months after d day and I still cant stop thinking about it and feel like crap
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish I could tell you how I coped, but I don't think I did, really. Just rugswept and boozed my way to an EA and a nearly PA.

I think you are handling things way better than I did. Yeah, I know, being told in advance by my wife that she was going to have an affair was better than me accidentally finding out about it, was different to how most people learn about the affair.


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## calvin

I dont think I'm handling it well at all M&M.
In fact I have some people telling me to get over it and CSS is tired of the way I'm "Handling" it.So tired that I think she might want out. 
I can handle that if it comes down to it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Never want out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I could never have a revenge affair,just dont have it in me,I thought about it but not long at all,even had a chance.
Cheating makes me sick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

hey all just wanted to post real quick, EI is busy cooking for an early Thanksgiving tomorrow with extended family. our daughter is here with our grandson keeping us busy. We will post later tonight or in the morning, it's just crazy busy right now and has been all day.

We are doing fine BTW, EI and I are both in really good spirits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

joe kidd said:


> pidge is off to see a friend. I felt bad because she asked me if she could as if I was her father. I understand that she feels she has to ask.
> I didn't think twice about saying yes. My feeling are this....if after 2 yrs of heaven and hell she wants to do something stupid then there was no chance anyway. She knows this. You have to trust sometime.


:iagree:
And what you really want is an equal partner.


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## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> hey all just wanted to post real quick, EI is busy cooking for an early Thanksgiving tomorrow with extended family. our daughter is here with our grandson keeping us busy. We will post later tonight or in the morning, it's just crazy busy right now and has been all day.
> 
> We are doing fine BTW, EI and I are both in really good spirits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad to hear you two are doing good.
Pretty good evening here,we're talking had a little fun in the bedroom  and just feel pretty decent.
Sister from Alabama made it in and we'll all go to the hospital to see Dad tomorrow.
I'm not used to depending on anyone.
A little help cant hurt I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

Cheating affairs are the most sever attacks on a person’s emotions that I can think of. Often the BS desperately looks to the cheating spouse to fix it or to dump on him/her their anger and other emotions

That is very normal but in many cases that goes only so far and sometimes is counter productive to healing. Think about it; you are looking to a cheating spouse that is damaged themselves to pull you out of the most sever attack on your personhood.

Before I go on I want to say that I have only read a little about a few WS on this thread. I am very impressed with EI and Changingme and I am sure there are more. However, there is only so much that the WS can do.

I just read a post by Calvin and that is what prompted me to post. Calvin said:




> By Calvin
> I dont think I'm handling it well at all M&M.
> In fact I have some people telling me to get over it and CSS is tired of the way I'm "Handling" it. So tired that I think she might want out.


My advice for Calvin is that he FORCE himself to consentrate on building up his self in body, mind, and spirit and stop handling it in ways that would want his wife to “WANT OUT” I know his wife said that she does not want out and that must be very comforting to Calvin. I have no reason to believe that she is not telling the truth. I do know that everyone has a limit and every one will break if pushed too far.


Calvin, you can by a pure act of your will FORCE yourself to do things that pretty much is YOU doing for YOU. When you fail and get back into handling it in a way that would make your wife think about wanting out, pick yourself up and get back on track.

*You cannot depend on your wife to fix your spirit. In fact your wife is limited in what she can do to fix your emotions.* I know that your wife is doing a good job but she is limited.

What I did was to work on my relationship with my God. He is the only one that I could trust 100% and *I needed to trust someone 100%. I needed someone to lean on and trust that they would always have my best interest at heart. God is the only one that can always keep His promises and always has the strength to do that.* Your WS may want to do all that but they are not strong enough nor is anyone else.

*If you become interested in getting a better relationship with God than that helps keep the triggers out. It also helps build you up emotionally and spiritually.*


> Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
> I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.




I used to be a Baptist and I am no preacher at all. I am just a sinner boy that had to learn the hard way that God means what He says when He said 


> Proverbs 3:6
> In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths


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## daisygirl 41

Dig - you are so right!
I also think that there is a tendency by the BS to obsess over the A. I found myself trapped in the obsessive thing, going over and over the same thing, looking at the xOWs FB page, looking at the phone records, searching browser history and it was soul destroying. I asked the same questions over and over, sometimes in my head, sometimes out loud. But if I stopped these things and 'moved on' wasn't I rug sweeping? Wasn't I just trying to pretend nothing happened? Well as it happens, since I stopped doing all those things my life has become a whole lot better and my mental state has almost returned to a place of peace. 

If I have a specific worry or question I voice it, we talk about it. I know there are some things I won't ever have the answers too, and some things I just don't want to know. This time last year my H and I were separated, I was heartbroken, woke every morning crying, now, I wake and he's here, he holds me and tells me he loves me. Sometimes that's all I need to hear!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Let me change the mood here and wish B1 and EI an early Happy Thanksgiving with all their family and friends coming over today.

You both have been through alot this year -- but still have many, many people and things to be thankful. 

Enjoy this day -- I am sure back in May one or both of you didn't know if you would be together for this holiday.

Somehow, someway -- you have gone through the process to make it to today -- taking it hour by hour, day by day.

The process will never end -- the process is life. You both have learned alot since May -- a big one is never take one another for granted. 

Happy Thanksgiving B1 and EI -- you deserve this day to be thankful and reflect. You have made it together to Thanksgiving.

Have fun and EI -- don't worry about anything -- I am sure everything will be great.


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## B1

Thank you JH, your right from May to now, whoa...what a difference. In between then and now what a ride. I know EI didn't think we would be together after May, she was so done with me. I, on the other hand, was willing to try and try we did. We have both come a long way since then. We are both committed to this R.

I am glad we are where we are and we didn't throw in the towel. 

Yes, we made it to thanksgiving, now looking forward to Christmas  and the new year!


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## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> Thank you JH, your right from May to now, whoa...what a difference. In between then and now what a ride. I know EI didn't think we would be together after May, she was so done with me. I, on the other hand, was willing to try and try we did. We have both come a long way since then. We are both committed to this R.
> 
> I am glad we are where we are and we didn't throw in the towel.
> 
> Yes, we made it to thanksgiving, now looking forward to Christmas  and the new year!


That's great. pidge fought hard for us. After D-day I was done. I treated her worse then I ever had. Everything she said I had a smartass comment in return. She would tell me "I love you" and I would say " good for you" or " you have lying down pat now don't you?". It seemed I had a change of heart every 10 min. I DO NOT miss that time at all.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

MattMatt said:


> Yeah, I know, being told in advance by my wife that she was going to have an affair was better than me accidentally finding out about it, was different to how most people learn about the affair.


I'd like to know more about your story, as this is how it happened with us, too. Can you point me to a link to your thread, or give me a synopsis here?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> I dont think I'm handling it well at all M&M.
> In fact I have some people telling me to get over it and CSS is tired of the way I'm "Handling" it.So tired that I think she might want out.
> I can handle that if it comes down to it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless she tells you she wants out, I'd assume she's in. Don't give up on something as important as your marriage. Process, obsess, talk. But don't give up.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Mr Blunt said:


> What I did was to work on my relationship with my God. He is the only one that I could trust 100% and *I needed to trust someone 100%. I needed someone to lean on and trust that they would always have my best interest at heart. God is the only one that can always keep His promises and always has the strength to do that.* Your WS may want to do all that but they are not strong enough nor is anyone else.
> 
> *If you become interested in getting a better relationship with God than that helps keep the triggers out. It also helps build you up emotionally and spiritually.*


Well, we don't talk about God here much, so I'll tread lightly, but firmly and say that, without my faith, I would be nowhere. If you are someone who believes in God, then you do have to acknowledge that, in His book, the Bible, He promised that He loves you and will care for you. Even if you cannot talk to Him and "hear" Him talk back, His promises are there for you to hold on to.

When I want to obsess, I instead obsess on God. He's worth the obsession, and there's nothing harmful in spending some of your time on Him. It may bring you some measure of peace.

Even if you are on the fence with your faith right now, are questioning "why would God let this happen?", you have to remember that He gave us free will, and it's that free will your WS took advantage of when they cheated. God will not stop someone from doing something like that. And although it's hard to hear this now, God uses all things for the good of those who are called by Him. So it's quite possible that you will come out with a stronger marriage, if you determine that you want to use _your_ free will to reconcile.


----------



## calvin

Well Mr.Blunt, I'm doing the best I know how,there is room for improvement,I am trying.
I really believe the calls from POSOM did a lot of damage to the R,I think those has finally stoped for good.I havent seen a thread here yet where the POSOM taunted the BS like I was.
I think we'll make it,I still have work to do on myself and I'm getting there at my own pace,no one elses.
If we dont (which I doubt) I am prepared for that.
Right now life is throwing curve ball after curve ball at me but I'm still hanging in there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Well Mr.Blunt, I'm doing the best I know how,there is room for improvement,I am trying.
> I really believe the calls from POSOM did a lot of damage to the R,I think those has finally stoped for good.I havent seen a thread here yet where the POSOM taunted the BS like I was.
> I think we'll make it,I still have work to do on myself and I'm getting there at my own pace,no one elses.
> If we dont (which I doubt) I am prepared for that.
> Right now life is throwing curve ball after curve ball at me but I'm still hanging in there
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah the phone calls would do some damage. I remember yelling at pidge. " Damn you for bringing this f^ck into my life!".


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Yeah the phone calls would do some damage. I remember yelling at pidge. " Damn you for bringing this f^ck into my life!".


Yeah,he was going to hurt her,he did it to other families,I dont know if other husbands were afraid of him or what but I went after him like a linebacker,no one tells me to mind my own bussines when it comes to my family.
His last call about a month ago was blaming me for ruining his life.
I was glad to help,he should have slithered back under his rock the first time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Looking forward to some turkey. We will have 2. One traditional, and a smaller one I'm going to put in the smoker.


----------



## calvin

Everyone is showing up for Turkey Day at my house,good.
Some were going to stay home,some were going to show up.Now they all will be here.
Good news for me and CSS
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Everyone is showing up for Turkey Day at my house,good.
> Some were going to stay home,some were going to show up.Now they all will be here.
> Good news for me and CSS
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MIL will be here this year. I'm going to let her comments go.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> MIL will be here this year. I'm going to let her comments go.


Oh God my MIL really is a b!cth in the worst way.
I love my FIL tough,good man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> What I did was to work on my relationship with my God. He is the only one that I could trust 100% and I needed to trust someone 100%. I needed someone to lean on and trust that they would always have my best interest at heart. God is the only one that can always keep His promises and always has the strength to do that. Your WS may want to do all that but they are not strong enough nor is anyone else.
> 
> If you become interested in getting a better relationship with God than that helps keep the triggers out. It also helps build you up emotionally and spiritually.
> 
> *By Bobka*
> Well, we don't talk about God here much, so I'll tread lightly, but firmly and say that, without my faith, I would be nowhere. If you are someone who believes in God, then you do have to acknowledge that, in His book, the Bible, He promised that He loves you and will care for you. Even if you cannot talk to Him and "hear" Him talk back, His promises are there for you to hold on to.
> 
> When I want to obsess, I instead obsess on God. He's worth the obsession, and there's nothing harmful in spending some of your time on Him. It may bring you some measure of peace.
> 
> Even if you are on the fence with your faith right now, are questioning "why would God let this happen?", you have to remember that He gave us free will, and it's that free will your WS took advantage of when they cheated. God will not stop someone from doing something like that. And although it's hard to hear this now, God uses all things for the good of those who are called by Him. So it's quite possible that you will come out with a stronger marriage, if you determine that you want to use your free will to reconcile.




Bobka, I appreciate your boldness. I really think your post has wisdom and hope. You did what I was talking about *“When I want to obsess, I instead obsess on God.”*

As for your statement of *“Well, we don't talk about God here much”,* no one wants a preacher that says their own blissful words when they have not been through the dark valley themselves. That is one reason that I admire B1 with his posts. He has been in that dark valley and he is still standing and is bold in his openness. My guess is that he leans on God at times. I assume you do too as you seem to have wisdom. In fact I bet that a lot of folks here lean on God.

As for me, if this thread does not want to bring in God into the talks then I will not be here very often.* I am not going to stand on a pedestal and preach but neither am I going to have much to contribute without mentioning how God got me through my darkest valleys*. I know how I have survived in my life, the affair, and my 41 years of marriage. If I cannot give God the credit that belongs to Him on this thread then I will go somewhere else. You all have the absolute right to demand what you want to talk about, just let me know if my post is out of your requirements and I will honor your wishes.



*What do you people on this thread want? Do you not want talk about God here? 
Tell me bluntly, I can go with whatever you wish.*


----------



## calvin

He walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am not alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Just starting to wrap up the first of our family Thanksgiving gatherings. I apologize for my extended abscence..... Haven't had any down time for days...... But I love to see the thread moving right along with or without B1 and/or myself posting. Discussions about God and faith are absolutely welcome on this thread, anytime. Mr. Blunt, we're happy to have you posting with us. I hope to join in the discussion very soon...... 

Take care,
EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Quote of Calvin*Well Mr.Blunt, I'm doing the best I know how,there is room for improvement,I am trying.
> I really believe the calls from POSOM did a lot of damage to the R,I think those has finally stoped for good.I havent seen a thread here yet where the POSOM taunted the BS like I was.
> I think we'll make it,I still have work to do on myself and I'm getting there at my own pace,no one elses.
> If we dont (which I doubt) I am prepared for that.
> Right now life is throwing curve ball after curve ball at me but I'm still hanging in there





Calvin

I have no doubt that you are trying that is one of the reasons that I responded to you. I also think that you may benefit from getting more strength form your faith. I noticed that you mentioned that you were a Christian and you stated “I believe in God and the Bible” I usually do not share my faith thoughts with people until I think that they will be respectful of my faith and would not mind discussing faith issues. I think that you are one of those people. If you are not I will promptly stop posting to you or about you. All you have to do is tell me.

I did not experience the POSOM like you have so I am further impressed with your ability to proclaim your faith. *You have been tested by fire and are a source of strength. It is easy to say you believe in God when everything is going well but it takes a person of real commitment and Character to say that when you have been hit so very hard.* That is the main reason that I mentioned you in my post.

Frankly I think that you maybe have been so traumatized by the OM and the affair that you may have not realized fully that your faith and relationship to God is going to do the heavy lifting and bring real healing. I am not discounting your wife’s efforts, I am sure she has been a real help. However there are some things that spouses and others can not do.

My whole purpose in mentioning you is that I was hoping that something I said would help you. *I wanted you to know that the some of most important healings for the deepest pains come from God and no one else*. I needed to know that no matter how much I failed or weakened that there was someone with unshakeable strength that would never abandon me. That for me was God and I must remind myself often that He must ne number one and no one else. Your wife and my wife are human and they all have a limit and a braking point; we all do. I no longer get 100% of my manhood or worth from my wife; she is just not capable of the job. She can be of help but I have to figure out the separating line between her contribution and God’s contribution. *I also realize that both depend on my contribution.*

I fell into the trap of me wanting my wife to fulfill all the damage that she did but I found out that she cannot. I hope that you do not fall into the trap that I did.

If my position, thinking, and thoughts are not what you want then just be blunt and tell me and I will immediate stop addressing you. I like things BLUNT!


----------



## CantSitStill

With everything going on..I am leaning on God's strength every day. I feel God literally told me to go back to Calvin..I know that sounds strange but I just cannot explain it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Well actually God told Calvin to text me when I was having my nervous breakdown too. We just got back from the hospital. This has been rough but I think his dad will be home soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

There is only so much CSS can do,I know that.
As long as she has shown me this then the rest is up to me I guess but I need her to keep trying and not give up.
Yes Mr.Blunt I believe in God,I think I mentioned I played piano for the church,my Dad was very involved as was I.
I was in the puppet ministry for years,good way of teaching the young ones about God.
I dont attend church regularly,I only get one day a week off.
There is a reason we are all here,I take the Bible for the truth mostly.
I believe in evolution to a point but I know it did start with Adam and Eve.We didnt crawl out of the ocean.
My faith could be stonger but I also believe we are the captains of our own destiney.
God helps those who help themselves...thats not in the Bible but I feel its true none the less.
I pray,I believe all prayers are answered,sometimes the answer is no.
I promised my Dad that when he gets out of the hospital I will go back to church with him.
You can have church in yourself,a church is the people,not the building.
I lean on God but tend to believe I can do it all no matter what,thats my downfall.
Just like the thief on the cross next to Jesus we all can be saved.
Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me,yea tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil for tho arent with me.
Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the kingdom of God forever.
I know I got some of the Lord prayer wrong there but I'm a little rusty.
I like the part about preparing a table before me in the presence of mine enimies.
its just hard sometimes,I'm no Jobe but its still rought.
I'll get there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Even when I don't know what to do..I will always hold Calvin's hand..just being next to him quietly sometimes is all he needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> By Calvin
> There is only so much CSS can do, I know that.
> As long as she has shown me this then the rest is up to me I guess but I need her to keep trying and not give up.


Calvin
I was impressed with CSS’s post to you as reprinted below. Looks like to me that she is NOT giving up.




> *By Calvin*
> In fact I have some people telling me to get over it and CSS is tired of the way I'm "Handling" it. So tired that I think she might want out.
> 
> *By CantSitStill*
> Never want out



Calvin, you seem to be a humble man and that is a compliment


----------



## calvin

Mr Blunt said:


> Calvin
> I was impressed with CSS’s post to you as reprinted below. Looks like to me that she is NOT giving up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Calvin, you seem to be a humble man and that is a compliment


Thanks Mr. Blunt,I've had some good days lately with CSS and having her by my side with everything going on with my Dad and family lately has shown me just how much she is comitted to us.
I'm not looking for sympathy but I've not had and east life with four drug addicted sisters who are always is trouble and took everything from my Mom and Dad they could get.
With my Dad in the hospital they are looking for anything of value the can get their hands on,my sister from Alabama is at their house guarding everything til we can get stuff in order.
CSS is there to support me,I dont need her to be Wonder woman but to just be there and reasure me and hold me up sometimes.
Like I said,my Dads illness has brought us closer together.
I'm getting to the point I dont need to thing about the past much now,what matters is the future.
I draw a lot of my strengh from CSS and together I know we can make it through anything.
I really do love that girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

*help* 

i feel like i'm in such a no-win situation... could i ask for your perspectives on this?

some of you might remember that currently i am in sort of a holding pattern with WH. about 2 weeks ago, we had a terrible, sad confrontation when i discovered that, although he had agreed to go to MC, he had also been in touch with OW on the day of our first session. he had never ended it with her. at that point, he told me that he wanted us to separate and move toward ending our marriage. i said that i could let him go, and began to focus on putting my own life back together, which has really helped me. we are still under the same roof, ostensibly to allow us to figure out next steps. since then, he has seemed conflicted and does not seem to be taking action in that direction -- but has said nothing one way or the other. i've said nothing either.

now a man that i met professionally has suggested that we go for coffee. the context for this is appropriate. i don't know him well but he has accomplished something career-wise that is a future possibility for me, too, and we have tried unsuccessfully to compare notes about it when we pass each other at work -- we just never have time to finish the conversation.

but you see where i'm going with this. at another time in my life, i wouldn't have thought twice about this. i would just be happy to get the scoop from my colleague on how to figure out this career step.

now, i'm seeing it in a bigger picture and i'm asking myself: how open (if at all) should i be to meeting new people, in this or other contexts? 

on the one hand, you know that i have never wanted the outcome that H and i are moving toward. that's why i have hung in here during the holding pattern.

on the other hand, i've pretty much been alone in working on R, and am now living with a man whose last communication was that he doesn't want to stay with me. 

could somebody point me towards "forward"?! i can't see which way that is. i only see a rock and a hard place


----------



## jh52

margrace said:


> *help*
> 
> i feel like i'm in such a no-win situation... could i ask for your perspectives on this?
> 
> some of you might remember that currently i am in sort of a holding pattern with WH. about 2 weeks ago, we had a terrible, sad confrontation when i discovered that, although he had agreed to go to MC, he had also been in touch with OW on the day of our first session. he had never ended it with her. at that point, he told me that he wanted us to separate and move toward ending our marriage. i said that i could let him go, and began to focus on putting my own life back together, which has really helped me. we are still under the same room, ostensibly to allow us to figure out next steps. since then, he has seemed conflicted and does not seem to be taking action in that direction -- but has said nothing one way or the other. i've said nothing either.
> 
> now a man that i met professionally has suggested that we go for coffee. the context for this is appropriate. i don't know him well but he has accomplished something career-wise that is a future possibility for me, too, and we have tried unsuccessfully to compare notes about it when we pass each other at work -- we just never have time to finish the conversation.
> 
> but you see where i'm going with this. at another time in my life, i wouldn't have thought twice about this. i would just be happy to get the scoop from my colleague on how to figure out this career step.
> 
> now, i'm seeing it in a bigger picture and i'm asking myself: how open (if at all) should i be to meeting new people, in this or other contexts?
> 
> on the one hand, you know that i have never wanted the outcome that H and i are moving toward. that's why i have hung in here during the holding pattern.
> 
> on the other hand, i've pretty much been alone in working on R, and am now living with a man whose last communication was that he doesn't want to stay with me.
> 
> which way is forward?! i can only see a rock and a hard place


Hi MG:

Go for coffee -- keep the conversation professional. You have to move forward with your life -- look ahead -- and this man can help you achieve your professional goals -- no problem as far I am concern.

We all have/had mentors in our life -- as long as it is professional, you have nothing to worry about. I have had many female mentors in my life and career -- not once have we ever crossed that "line".

Good luck !!


----------



## margrace

jh52 said:


> Hi MG:
> 
> Go for coffee -- keep the conversation professional. You have to move forward with your life -- look ahead -- and this man can help you achieve your professional goals -- no problem as far I am concern.
> 
> We all have/had mentors in our life -- as long as it is professional, you have nothing to worry about. I have had many female mentors in my life and career -- not once have we ever crossed that "line".
> 
> Good luck !!


thank you for your response jh!

yes, thinking in terms of going on with my life has been a lifesaver for me. and i don't anticipate any line being crossed. 

i guess i am wondering, how do i think about that line now? is it where it always was? does getting on with my life mean that this line is changing? am i foolish for thinking that it is the same/different from what it was?


----------



## jh52

margrace said:


> thank you for your response jh!
> 
> yes, thinking in terms of going on with my life has been a lifesaver for me. and i don't anticipate any line being crossed.
> 
> i guess i am wondering, how do i think about that line now? is it where it always was? does getting on with my life mean that this line is changing? am i foolish for thinking that it is the same/different from what it was?


HI MG:

Every situation is different. Only you can decide about the line and when and how it changes. You are still married -- though your stbxh has told you he is leaving. Keeping this in mind, MG must decide. 

The main thing is to focus on making MG a better woman -- whether your husband comes back, you get divorced and remain single, or you find another person.

Your focus should be totally, 100% on you for a while. You are the most important person in this situation.

You get to make these decisions -- just don't move to fast.

It's always the same what I say alot -- but your situation is no different -- take it hour by hour, day by day.

You will get through this situation == just remember that.


----------



## bfree

Margrace,

I agree with jh. Go for coffee, you need to move forward. If you stay in limbo waiting for your H to make up his mind about what he wants you'll be waiting forever. Besides, after his actions you have every right to figure out what YOU want irrespective of your H. Just keep it on the up and up and see where things go from there.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> I pray,I believe all prayers are answered,sometimes the answer is no.


This is sometimes the hardest part. We so often think that God is not hearing our prayers, but if we don't get a clear "yes", then the answer is probably "no."

Calvin, you just keep working it. You are strong, and you are smart. Lean on God, and your own understanding will be strengthened.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> *help*
> 
> i feel like i'm in such a no-win situation... could i ask for your perspectives on this?
> 
> now a man that i met professionally has suggested that we go for coffee. the context for this is appropriate. i don't know him well but he has accomplished something career-wise that is a future possibility for me, too, and we have tried unsuccessfully to compare notes about it when we pass each other at work -- we just never have time to finish the conversation.
> 
> but you see where i'm going with this. at another time in my life, i wouldn't have thought twice about this. i would just be happy to get the scoop from my colleague on how to figure out this career step.
> 
> now, i'm seeing it in a bigger picture and i'm asking myself: how open (if at all) should i be to meeting new people, in this or other contexts?


I think I'm going to disagree with the rest of the folks who have responded here. I feel you should still be playing it close at this point, not doing anything that could smack of inpropriety. If this "mentor" is "safe", why not find a place at work to sit down and talk about things. Going out for coffee is just a first step toward going out for lunch, then dinner, then drinks, then...

Even though your H has most recently indicated that he wants to end it, you haven't ended it yet. Go with what you have right now. You're at an impasse, and anything you do to tip this could be something you regret later.


----------



## daisygirl 41

bobka said:


> I think I'm going to disagree with the rest of the folks who have responded here. I feel you should still be playing it close at this point, not doing anything that could smack of inpropriety. If this "mentor" is "safe", why not find a place at work to sit down and talk about things. Going out for coffee is just a first step toward going out for lunch, then dinner, then drinks, then...
> 
> Even though your H has most recently indicated that he wants to end it, you haven't ended it yet. Go with what you have right now. You're at an impasse, and anything you do to tip this could be something you regret later.


I agree with this advice Margrace
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

daisygirl 41 said:


> I agree with this advice Margrace
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Remember that my advice comes from someone for whom hope springs eternal. I feel you are still on this thread because deep down, you want reconciliation. Who wouldn't?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI and B1, I want to wish you the very best today!


----------



## B1

margrace..I think as long as it's professional and it's "really" about moving ahead in your career then there shouldn't be a problem. my agent the one that's selling my photography is a woman and we have had lunch a couple of times to go over my work and work on paper work. Of course EI knows about it before hand. 

I think you should Tell your husband though, I realize where he is but he's still your husband and should know. If you see this man has other things in mind then cut it off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

EI and I started this morning off with a prayer. I am going to get God involved in my healing and our R now. I need his strength and his wisdom. EI can only do so much for me. I have been praying some but not enough, not near enough. 

We used to be very active in church, on committees, taught Sunday School etc. but we have fallen back a lot, our faith was shaken up pretty bad before the A. due to church splits, man letting us down and our hectic life. 

I plan to start nightly prayer time with EI and to get back in spiritual shape  

I would also greatly appreciate some prayers and everyone on here has mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

Would frequent and sincere thoughts to both of you do from a non-believer?


----------



## Acabado

cpacan said:


> Would frequent and sincere thoughts to both of you do from a non-believer?


Add me to the group. Very present in my thoughts.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

cpacan said:


> Would frequent and sincere thoughts to both of you do from a non-believer?


I'll bet that would do just fine.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> EI and I started this morning off with a prayer. I am going to get God involved in my healing and our R now. I need his strength and his wisdom. EI can only do so much for me. I have been praying some but not enough, not near enough.
> 
> We used to be very active in church, on committees, taught Sunday School etc. but we have fallen back a lot, our faith was shaken up pretty bad before the A. due to church splits, man letting us down and our hectic life.
> 
> I plan to start nightly prayer time with EI and to get back in spiritual shape
> 
> I would also greatly appreciate some prayers and everyone on here has mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Those of us who are praying people are praying for you, guys.

It doesn't really matter where you are in your spiritual life, whether you are attending church or teaching Sunday school - none of this matters. What matters is that you take your requests to God, and let Him work in your marriage. He's just wanting to hear from you!

Also, from someone to whom this has happened; do NOT let things that church people, pastors, members, etc. do affect where you are at spiritually. They are not God, they are not your faith. Your faith has to do with your personal and collective journey (you and EI) with Him.

The good thing about prayer is that is causes you to pause and meditate on the issue you are praying about. The more you can do that, the further the obsessing recedes into the background, and the more present healing becomes.

You will have more setbacks and hitches, this I know, but if you are bolstered by your faith, this can sometimes be the difference. Keep it before God. He's in it with you.


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm popping in again for a big reason and it's for ALL of us.

EI & B1 express that they are getting back in their spiritual lives again and that is absolutely wonderful to hear!

For some, having Christ in our lives creates wonderment and gives us strength and hope. In that love, if we can share that with someone significant in our lives, well...then we flourish as a couple. It's as it is intended to be. 

For some, not believing in Christ does not mean that our lives are empty. Looking up to the stars in the sky or the coloring of leaves on a tree creates wonderment and gives us strength and hope. Appreciating what the world is and sharing that beauty with someone significant in our lives, well...then we flourish as a couple. It's as it is intended to be.

Never think that someone...anyone...who asks for your prayers is only asking you to pray to their chosen God for them. They're asking you to pray to whatever you choose. Pray to Christ, to Allah, to Buddah or to the Goddess. It matters not. Prayer is as it is intended to be. Between YOU and your chosen belief. Give them willingly and often.


----------



## EI

Hey Everyone,

This could be a long and rambling post  or a very short one depending on whether or not the "boys" (that would be our sons) start busting down the front door with "Can you do this, can you do that" requests.... in the next few minutes. Oh, BTW B1, I think that I should give you fair warning that I will not have completed my "To Do List" by the time you get home today.... but, it will be done by Thanksgiving.  Just in case anyone is wondering... B1 is not the one who puts pressure on me to complete my "To Do List," I do that to myself.

Soooo, like I mentioned yesterday, it warms my heart when I check this thread and see that it keeps right on rolling whether B1 and I are posting or not. It takes me back to the days when I did administrative/secretarial work.... if you are very organized and efficient, then the office should be able to run a few days without you. Yes, I'm still rambling. 

*margrace,* I want you to know how much I appreciated this post: 

_"EI dear, you work so hard in all that you do! and i can imagine how easy it is for the people in your life to love you for that and come to expect it ... even here on this thread! for all the joking around that we do about EI's long posts, i think that we all look forward to them, and appreciate them, and even wait for them at times.

those thoughtful posts where you multi-quote and respond thoughtfully to each of us, always mentioning us by name, always willing to pour out your heart -- those are the seven-course thanksgiving dinners that you and B1 serve to us week after week after week!"_

You were definitely speaking to me in my "love language," which is "Words of Affirmation," and it meant a great deal to me. As odd as this may sound, when I see how much my infidelity hurts B1, it makes me feel saddened and, somewhat indebted, not just for him, but for every BS. So, it is very humbling, and almost difficult, for me to be on the receiving end of such generosity from someone who has been hurt by infidelity. So, I thank you for that, very much.

I don't want to start naming names, because there are so many of you who contribute here and I don't want to leave anyone out, but you all mean a great deal to B1 and me..... every single one of you. Thank you all so much for being a part of the Reconciliation thread. The person who may have been on the receiving end of advice, support and encouragement yesterday, might be the one offering it to someone else tomorrow. I love that.

B1 and I have had some ups and downs in the last week or so.... big ones. I feel like he needs something from me that I am incapable of giving to him. He looks at me and without having said a word, I know that he is silently pleading with me to say something, do something, anything to make all of his pain go away and I know that I can't. I cannot make this go away. I cannot undo what has already been done. And, it brings me down, too. I've read elsewhere on TAM, not here, at least not lately, where WS's have been told to "suck it up, this is the heavy lifting that you are required to do." I understand that.... I do and I'm trying. But, even though I'm a former WS, I'm still just a human being. A flawed, vulnerable, still hurting, still sad, human being. B1 rarely gets angry, he hasn't raised his voice in a long time, he doesn't call me unkind names, he doesn't threaten me and he has never even remotely made me feel physically threatened. He's just sad....and that makes me sad.

I was sad for such a long time, pre-A, and now, sometimes, I wonder if there is ever going to be any happiness on the horizon. But, I am afraid that by even saying that, that I will be thought of as selfish. I want happiness for B1 as much as I want it for myself... and our children. I don't think that I could ever even be happy if B1 were not.... and there's the rub. I can't fix this.... I know what he wants and needs.... he needs for this pain to go away, he needs for the one person that he loves the most to NOT be the one person who hurt him the most. I can't fix this.... and I am a fixer.... so where does that leave us?

Finally, I welcome all prayers, kind thoughts, warm wishes, whether they come from Christians, Atheists, or any number of other beliefs in between. You are all very, very precious to me.

I know that I have a few pm's to respond to and some previous comments to address, and I will...... but, I have to get back to real life for a while.

Take care,
~EI


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> ...... but, I have to get back to real life for a while.


What, this isn't _real life?_


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## B1

To cpacan and acabado, of course your thoughts, warm wishes are just as welcome and very much appreciated. We will take all we can get 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

bobka said:


> What, this isn't _real life?_


Let's just say that there are days when I wish that I could log off and escape from real life as easily as I can from my cyber life!


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## EI

bobka said:


> What, this isn't _real life?_





EI said:


> Let's just say that there are days when I wish that I could log off and escape from real life as easily as I can from my cyber life!


Okay, on 2nd thought, maybe that wasn't the right thing to say, under the circumstances..... I'm just kind of tired tonight, didn't realize how that might have looked in black and white.


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## Mr Blunt

Betrayed 1

I thought that maybe these verses might help you

Psalm 32.
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. 2 He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, 3 he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me


Calvin, thanks for reminding me about this verse

Isaiah 41:10 fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.


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## calvin

Used to say the Lords prayer everynight before bed.
Hell I even went to Hammond Baptist schools for a while,they were kinda rough though,my grades were excellent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

hi everyone:

good to read the thread this morning and catch up with everyone. EI, thank you for the extended response that you managed to sneak in between family doings! hope you and B1 have a good day today....

thanks to all for the input regarding my "help" post! i managed to combine all of your suggestions -- i did meet with my colleague for the career advice but we arranged to meet at work. 

movement of some kind yesterday. some time ago, i had a promotion at work. i had known about it already, but yesterday i got the letter that notified me officially. i forwarded a copy to H, and in the email i expressed my thanks for his support in helping me get to this place. apart from everything else that has happened between us, i offered those thanks in complete sincerity, because it's a fact: he has believed in what i'm doing from the beginning, and i could not have done it without him. 

my friends, i should have thanked him more all along the way. 

experiencing this gratitude filled me up with so many feelings, and i had to shut my office door and cry.

we were both very tired last night, but we met for dinner near where we live. both of us were visibly emotional, and i felt affection and connection between us. we held hands for a moment at the table, something we have not done for a long time.

i felt the same this morning as he left for work.

i am not discontinuing my cultivation of my own life. i'm going to my first salsa class tonight  at the same time, we seem a bit closer to each other every day.

so now what? i don't want to return to my unhelpful and soul-killing (my soul, that is) tendencies to push, fix, initiate conversations, propose plans, etc. working on *my life* has been the best thing for helping me feel better.

but: i am also clueless with regard to what the heck he is thinking or wanting or committing to with regard to our relationship (if anything). things seems to be evolving positively.... but at some point, i will want to know where things stand (won't i?). there's so much that has not been admitted, settled, or even spoken of between us. 

maybe it all never can be? or not right now?

put the big talk on hold? i guess i do have some conditions -- he may as well. 

talk me down if i am letting myself drift back to fixer/pusher mode!

or, this is where one TAM contingent says, hey, you're rugsweeping, he needs to do this and that before you can move forward, etc. 

i can consider any/all of this. i know that i will ultimately decide, but what's your take? 

xoxo mg


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## B1

margrace, one thing comes to mind right away...is he still in contact with the OW? a simple cell record check will tell you this. I already know this is something you don't want to know because you are beginning to have hope, even if just a little and proof of contact would crush that and you again.

but you really need to know this, at least I think so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Mr Blunt said:


> Betrayed 1
> 
> I thought that maybe these verses might help you
> 
> Psalm 32.
> 1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. 2 He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, 3 he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me
> 
> 
> Calvin, thanks for reminding me about this verse
> 
> Isaiah 41:10 fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.


thank you Mr blunt. and WOW..I used to own a truck and on the back window was the Isaiah verse you just posted. I love that verse. I believe it will be one of my mantras when things are rough inside.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> put the big talk on hold


The continuing to work on yourself has to be part of whatever you do. This has been so hard for me. I want just to be with her, to make the connection that said "love" all our lives together, but I have to allow the space for both her and my healing, and she still has issues to work out, as does your husband. And I have to keep working on me.

I don't believe he's ready for the "big talk" yet, and I also think that he will let you know when he is. Right now, you can go along as you are, and if things seem to be improving, let them improve. You've got no time limit, you've got nothing saying that anything has to happen right now. Keep salsa dancing and fixing you, and let him stew, if that's what he's doing. You don't have to be walking in hope that things will get better, but you can rejoice a little that they are not getting worse.

I really feel for you, and hope that you can find some happiness in your life. You deserve it. We all do.


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## daisygirl 41

Margrace, a definite step in the right direction BUT put the breaks on a little.
You really need to verify that's he's gone NC before you start getting your hopes up BUT things are definitely improving I think!!
See how it works? You've taken the pressure off, pulling away slightly and it's bringing him closer to you. I read somewhere once to think of it like you are both holding onto an elastic band, the more you pull away, it draws him to you but if you start moving in to close then he starts pulling away to tighten that band ( something like that anyway!)

The last 3 weeks of my Hs A were the most intense. It went from an EA to a PA. He stopped wearing his wedding ring, he told me he had slept with her and he loved her. The distance between us was immense, the worst it had been, he had lost the plot!!! Well by the end of that 3 weeks, he was done. He'd finished the A and all he was asking from me was for us to be friends. In those 3 weeks I somehow found the strength to completely 180 him and the shock of me withdrawing from him completely did the trick a d of course the rest is history. So There is always hope, but if he is still in contact, the time might be coming when you have to take a leap of faith and tell him you've made his mind up for him and he has to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

margrace said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you b1! i agree completely.... but i'm not sure that i can protect myself from that risk. he could always have contacted her from his work phone.

yes i might get hurt again. 

what do you think in light of that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Margrace, a definite step in the right direction BUT put the breaks on a little.
> You really need to verify that's he's gone NC before you start getting your hopes up BUT things are definitely improving I think!!
> See how it works? You've taken the pressure off, pulling away slightly and it's bringing him closer to you. I read somewhere once to think of it like you are both holding onto an elastic band, the more you pull away, it draws him to you but if you start moving in to close then he starts pulling away to tighten that band ( something like that anyway!)
> 
> The last 3 weeks of my Hs A were the most intense. It went from an EA to a PA. He stopped wearing his wedding ring, he told me he had slept with her and he loved her. The distance between us was immense, the worst it had been, he had lost the plot!!! Well by the end of that 3 weeks, he was done. He'd finished the A and all he was asking from me was for us to be friends. In those 3 weeks I somehow found the strength to completely 180 him and the shock of me withdrawing from him completely did the trick a d of course the rest is history. So There is always hope, but if he is still in contact, the time might be coming when you have to take a leap of faith and tell him you've made his mind up for him and he has to leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you're so right.... that's just what happened.

how can i really truly verify NC?

could you say a little more about what pulling back would look like, given that we are under the same roof?

thank you dg!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

bobka said:


> The continuing to work on yourself has to be part of whatever you do. This has been so hard for me. I want just to be with her, to make the connection that said "love" all our lives together, but I have to allow the space for both her and my healing, and she still has issues to work out, as does your husband. And I have to keep working on me.
> 
> I don't believe he's ready for the "big talk" yet, and I also think that he will let you know when he is. Right now, you can go along as you are, and if things seem to be improving, let them improve. You've got no time limit, you've got nothing saying that anything has to happen right now. Keep salsa dancing and fixing you, and let him stew, if that's what he's doing. You don't have to be walking in hope that things will get better, but you can rejoice a little that they are not getting worse.
> 
> I really feel for you, and hope that you can find some happiness in your life. You deserve it. We all do.


thank you bobka! definitely need to keep working on/for me...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

margrace said:


> you're so right.... that's just what happened.
> 
> how can i really truly verify NC?
> 
> could you say a little more about what pulling back would look like, given that we are under the same roof?
> 
> thank you dg!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know one can never truly verify NC. It's like taking a leap into the lions den when you've already been bitten once, twice. I HAD to take that leap. H still works with the OW ( although he has been off work now for 5 months) but soon he will have to go back. I'm bracing myself!!

I suppose its the old 'trust but verify'. So that includes the total transparency thing. And again, the old favourites, of his actions speaking louder than words, and going with your gut reaction, your instincts. What are they telling you ? They are usually right 

Agreed pulling back is harder when you are still under one roof, but from what I've read you are doing a splendid job. Keep on doing what you are doing and don't put too much hope into one good evening, even though it WAS a positive step.

I still worry about giving advice on here. I'm not that far out myself and I would hate for anything I post to have a detrimental affect on your R. I thought I had very good judgement once and of course I question that now! I honestly do think there is hope for you honey
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

margrace said:


> you're so right.... that's just what happened.
> 
> how can i really truly verify NC?
> 
> *could you say a little more about what pulling back would look like, given that we are under the same roof?*
> thank you dg!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've not been in your situation but I read in another thread somewhere that to do an effective 180 (pulling back) when living under the same roof you need to look and treat your spouse as a coworker that you do not trust and really do not like but have to get along with enough to work together. I don't know if that helps but I thought I'd throw it in.


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## Acabado

Unless he initiate "us" conversation you should asume he's in contact. That was the latest news you got, tight?

If he manage to talk about something not superficial , about "us", you should ask whether OW is still in the picture. Unless he claims NC and provide you the tools to verify it there's no "us" talk. At all. End of the talk. You end the discussion there. It's simple, with OW in the picture there's no chance, the talk is interfered by her influence, even they are just "chatting" nonsense it's a constant background noise.


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## margrace

thanks to those of you who chimed in today. *i needed that!* and i hear you -- i will not rush to assume that everything is all better now and head straight into the lion's den. 

i clearly don't know any more than that things are trending in the right direction.

i'll keep working on me


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## ChangingMe

I agree with others, margrace. I really think that if you put your efforts on yourself right now, then time will reveal where your H stands with the relationship. One partner cannot do the work of two. Take very good care of yourself, and if he is truly a man that deserves you, he will start picking up the slack and working for the relationship. 

I really hope he is. It is clear you still want him to be. But either way, if you work on yourself, your outcome will be better than if you continue to focus energy trying to fix the marriage. 

I wish you much happiness, margrace.


----------



## Complexity

EI said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> This could be a long and rambling post  or a very short one depending on whether or not the "boys" (that would be our sons) start busting down the front door with "Can you do this, can you do that" requests.... in the next few minutes. Oh, BTW B1, I think that I should give you fair warning that I will not have completed my "To Do List" by the time you get home today.... but, it will be done by Thanksgiving.  Just in case anyone is wondering... B1 is not the one who puts pressure on me to complete my "To Do List," I do that to myself.
> 
> Soooo, like I mentioned yesterday, it warms my heart when I check this thread and see that it keeps right on rolling whether B1 and I are posting or not. It takes me back to the days when I did administrative/secretarial work.... if you are very organized and efficient, then the office should be able to run a few days without you. Yes, I'm still rambling.
> 
> *margrace,* I want you to know how much I appreciated this post:
> 
> _"EI dear, you work so hard in all that you do! and i can imagine how easy it is for the people in your life to love you for that and come to expect it ... even here on this thread! for all the joking around that we do about EI's long posts, i think that we all look forward to them, and appreciate them, and even wait for them at times.
> 
> those thoughtful posts where you multi-quote and respond thoughtfully to each of us, always mentioning us by name, always willing to pour out your heart -- those are the seven-course thanksgiving dinners that you and B1 serve to us week after week after week!"_
> 
> You were definitely speaking to me in my "love language," which is "Words of Affirmation," and it meant a great deal to me. As odd as this may sound, when I see how much my infidelity hurts B1, it makes me feel saddened and, somewhat indebted, not just for him, but for every BS. So, it is very humbling, and almost difficult, for me to be on the receiving end of such generosity from someone who has been hurt by infidelity. So, I thank you for that, very much.
> 
> I don't want to start naming names, because there are so many of you who contribute here and I don't want to leave anyone out, but you all mean a great deal to B1 and me..... every single one of you. Thank you all so much for being a part of the Reconciliation thread. The person who may have been on the receiving end of advice, support and encouragement yesterday, might be the one offering it to someone else tomorrow. I love that.
> 
> B1 and I have had some ups and downs in the last week or so.... big ones. I feel like he needs something from me that I am incapable of giving to him. He looks at me and without having said a word, I know that he is silently pleading with me to say something, do something, anything to make all of his pain go away and I know that I can't. I cannot make this go away. I cannot undo what has already been done. And, it brings me down, too. I've read elsewhere on TAM, not here, at least not lately, where WS's have been told to "suck it up, this is the heavy lifting that you are required to do." I understand that.... I do and I'm trying. But, even though I'm a former WS, I'm still just a human being. A flawed, vulnerable, still hurting, still sad, human being. B1 rarely gets angry, he hasn't raised his voice in a long time, he doesn't call me unkind names, he doesn't threaten me and he has never even remotely made me feel physically threatened. He's just sad....and that makes me sad.
> 
> I was sad for such a long time, pre-A, and now, sometimes, I wonder if there is ever going to be any happiness on the horizon. But, I am afraid that by even saying that, that I will be thought of as selfish. I want happiness for B1 as much as I want it for myself... and our children. I don't think that I could ever even be happy if B1 were not.... and there's the rub. I can't fix this.... I know what he wants and needs.... he needs for this pain to go away, he needs for the one person that he loves the most to NOT be the one person who hurt him the most. I can't fix this.... and I am a fixer.... so where does that leave us?
> 
> Finally, I welcome all prayers, kind thoughts, warm wishes, whether they come from Christians, Atheists, or any number of other beliefs in between. You are all very, very precious to me.
> 
> I know that I have a few pm's to respond to and some previous comments to address, and I will...... but, I have to get back to real life for a while.
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


Hey EI I tried to send you a PM but I think you need to empty some space in your inbox.


----------



## EI

Complexity said:


> Hey EI I tried to send you a PM but I think you need to empty some space in your inbox.


I deleted some pm's. Can you re-send it?


----------



## margrace

good morning everyone!

daisy, i just PMed you....


----------



## seasalt

Dear Ei,

I have been reluctant to post, not because I don't have something to say but because we are away and i really don't like to type on my wife's tablet. However your post on 11/19 requires these comments and observations.

You said you look at your husband and know he is waiting for and needs you to say something to make him feel better. So many here say that it's actions not words that count. I have a somewhat different view. It's words not opposibe thumbs that differentiates us from monkeys. A monkey can hold a wrench but he'll never get to the moon or write a love song. Some here say that people use words to lie but language in it's purest sense conveys thought and information. Helen Keller though born deaf and blind struggled mightily to learn to speak. I can't imagine that she would use her words to lie. Where am I going with this thought? Your words as much as your actions have brought your husband to the place he expressed last week.

Your first post on this site was to ask how much detail you should give to your husband when he asks his questions about your affair. Water over the dam at this point but his recent despair was that he would never have viagra and alcohol sex with you like you had with your lover. Couldn't you, shouldn't you have provided the image of viagra enabled, for your boyfriend, alcohol induced, for you sex rather than champagne and four hour erections? Same sex different image.

Furthermore, your boyfriend keeps coming across in your description of him as a knight. Sir Lancelot who destroyed the kingdom by sleeping with Guinivere and then self imposing his own exile. Why isn't he coming across as a three time loser husband that was satisfied to introduce a married woman to his family as his girlfriend?

There was a movie about 25-30 years ago called the "Marathon Man". In it when Sir Lawrence Olivier is torturing Dustin Hoffman he keeps asking "IsIt safe?" I think your words to Betrayed are very important but you have to always ask yourself "are they safe?" 

I hope what I've said strikes a chord with you and would like to set you up with a question on a tee for you to hit out of the park. The information given in your post would indicate that your affair was conducted in proximaty to where you live. Lunches, dinners, late nights and errands, etc. You also said you interrelated with his family members, siblings?, parents?, children? Whatever. Without asking what that relationship was, what would you do or sat if you encountered one of his family members at the StopnShop, Macy's, Churchill Downs, etc?

Be safe,

Seasalt


----------



## EI

seasalt said:


> Dear Ei,
> 
> I have been reluctant to post, not because I don't have something to say but because we are away and i really don't like to type on my wife's tablet. However your post on 11/19 requires these comments and observations.
> 
> You said you look at your husband and know he is waiting for and needs you to say something to make him feel better. So many here say that it's actions not words that count. I have a somewhat different view. It's words not opposibe thumbs that differentiates us from monkeys. A monkey can hold a wrench but he'll never get to the moon or write a love song. Some here say that people use words to lie but language in it's purest sense conveys thought and information. Helen Keller though born deaf and blind struggled mightily to learn to speak. I can't imagine that she would use her words to lie. Where am I going with this thought? Your words as much as your actions have brought your husband to the place he expressed last week.
> 
> Your first post on this site was to ask how much detail you should give to your husband when he asks his questions about your affair. Water over the dam at this point but his recent despair was that he would never have viagra and alcohol sex with you like you had with your lover. Couldn't you, shouldn't you have provided the image of viagra enabled, for your boyfriend, alcohol induced, for you sex rather than champagne and four hour erections? Same sex different image.
> 
> Furthermore, your boyfriend keeps coming across in your description of him as a knight. Sir Lancelot who destroyed the kingdom by sleeping with Guinivere and then self imposing his own exile. Why isn't he coming across as a three time loser husband that was satisfied to introduce a married woman to his family as his girlfriend?
> 
> There was a movie about 25-30 years ago called the "Marathon Man". In it when Sir Lawrence Olivier is torturing Dustin Hoffman he keeps asking "IsIt safe?" I think your words to Betrayed are very important but you have to always ask yourself "are they safe?"
> 
> I hope what I've said strikes a chord with you and would like to set you up with a question on a tee for you to hit out of the park. The information given in your post would indicate that your affair was conducted in proximaty to where you live. Lunches, dinners, late nights and errands, etc. You also said you interrelated with his family members, siblings?, parents?, children? Whatever. Without asking what that relationship was, what would you do or sat if you encountered one of his family members at the StopnShop, Macy's, Churchill Downs, etc?
> 
> Be safe,
> 
> Seasalt


Well, first let me correct your first incorrect assumption. The Viagra and alcohol were both for him.... not Viagra for him and alcohol for me... And, since you are sooooo concerned with MY use of words, I would appreciate it if you would quit referring to the xOM as my lover and my boyfriend.... as he is, currently, neither one. Your second incorrect statement is that *"I"* keep referring to the xOM as a knight. I HAVE NEVER ONCE REFERRED TO THE xOM AS A KNIGHT, but you continue to do so and I would sincerely appreciate it if you would STOP IT IMMEDIATELY. The post that you are referring to is one in which I was asked a specific question and I answered it. Again, I did not refer to him as a knight, but rather as someone who was mislead, by me, into thinking that I was legally separated and that my husband and I were openly living separate lives while living under one roof (because of our children and our financial situation.) Your third incorrect statement was that he was referring to me as his girlfriend to his family, when in fact he was stating that he and I were "seeing" one another and that my husband and I were separated..... because that is what I had led him to believe at that time. I am not defending him or his actions, I am simply stating the facts.

You seem to be very concerned with the effect that my words have on my husband. Let me assure you that, at this moment, I am more concerned with the effect that YOUR words will be having on my husband, myself, our children and our approximately 25 guests that we will be hosting for Thanksgiving tomorrow. I did not inadvertently forget to respond to your last post. After reading it, I realized that there was nothing in there that I had not already answered in previous posts. Whether you like my answers or not is beside the point... the questions that you posed have been answered. But, for the sake of argument I will respond, now, to one of your previous questions. You asked me, more than once, what I could have done to bring my husband out of the depressed state that he was in last year before I "abandoned" him. Here, for the last time, is my answer to that. There is not one thing that I could have done to bring him out of his depressed state. Anything and everything that I might have done I had already tried multiple times. I talked with him over and over, I made multiple doctor's appointments for him, I made multiple counseling appointments for him. He began taking Testosterone injections the year before my affair began, but he quit taking them. He went to a couple of IC and MC sessions the year before my affair began, but he quit going. B1 was the only person who could "fix" B1.... no one can be forced to change until they choose to make a change, just like no one can be forced to cheat unless they choose to cheat. There was nothing more that I could have done for B1... that is something that he had to decide/will himself to do. Now I, on the other hand, could have chosen to remain faithful and to have stayed in (what was then) a miserable marriage in the hopes that he would someday choose to take his psychological well-being and the health of our marriage seriously, but we know that I did not.... so, here we are. I do not intend to address this same question again. It has been answered multiple times.

And finally, in response to your wish to _"set me up with a question,"_ and I do believe that your choice of wording is _very_ telling, my answer is as follows: The xOM's family, parents, children, friends, etc., were as innocent in all of this as my own husband and children were/are. If I were to run into them in public, I would not initiate contact with them. But, if eye contact was made I would smile and say "hey, how are you?" Because you know what? I may have been unfaithful, but I am not an evil B. Now, if the it were the xOM, himself, I would not speak to him, I would avoid eye contact and I would turn and go in the opposite direction. I hope this satisfies your questions.

I'm not enjoying your "chest-thumping" (in your previous post) and "monkey comparison" type of wording (in this post.) I'm not sure why you choose this type of wording unless you are getting some type of kick out of making degrading and humiliating comparisons. I've always said that the words that posters on TAM use is a greater reflection of themselves rather than the person whose character they are scrutinizing. My assessment of that still stands. 

If you are as concerned about B1's well-being as you claim to be, you will refrain from this line of questioning in the future. Because, YOU are the only one, on TAM, who continues to bring up the xOM, at this point. 

I hope you and yours have a very happy Thanksgiving. I know that you have just put a big black cloud on mine.... hopefully, that will not pass on to B1, my children and our guests.

Take care,
~EI


----------



## seasalt

EI,

Words are very important to me but I am abjectly sorry that mine were hurtful to you and possibly Betrayed.

If you can please accept my appology and best wishes.


----------



## EI

seasalt said:


> EI,
> 
> Words are very important to me but I am abjectly sorry that mine were hurtful to you and possibly Betrayed.
> 
> If you can please accept my appology and best wishes.


I accept your apology.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Thankful for:

A marriage that looks better every day
Kids that love me
Good doctors and meds that help me cope
Music!
A God who loves me no matter how bad I am
A roof over my head and just enough money to pay the bills
My friends on TAM and the Reconciliation thread


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> I know that you have just put a big black cloud on mine.... hopefully, that will not pass on to B1, my children and our guests.


You don't have to let this be a black cloud. This guy is just one poster, and he's out of line. Enjoy your Thanksgiving, and know that it will be you who will bring the joy, not this guy trying to take it away.


----------



## calvin

bobka said:


> Thankful for:
> 
> A marriage that looks better every day
> Kids that love me
> Good doctors and meds that help me cope
> Music!
> A God who loves me no matter how bad I am
> A roof over my head and just enough money to pay the bills
> My friends on TAM and the Reconciliation thread


Thats good bobka,I have a lot to be thankful for this year also.
I think I'm starting to make some headway out of this funk I've been in. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Margrace I've pm'd you!

I used to get an email when I had a pm. That's stopped now!
Anyone got any idea how to activate it again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Thats good bobka,I have a lot to be thankful for this year also.
> I think I'm starting to make some headway out of this funk I've been in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvind HERE is a link to an interesting article on healing I just found this morning.

I found it to be a real eye opener for me, maybe it will answer some questions for you, and others, also.

There are a lot of other great articles on this site.


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Calvind HERE is a link to an interesting article on healing I just found this morning.
> 
> I found it to be a real eye opener for me, maybe it will answer some questions for you, and others, also.
> 
> There are a lot of other great articles on this site.


Thanks B1,I never thought it would take this long to get a grip.It still hurts but all I could think about today was CSS and spending some time together over the four day weekend.
She says dont dwell on it but sometimes it just cant be helped.
I still think the best therapy for me is getting my hands on him for all the calls and crap he said.
He's fast,I'll give him that. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bobka said:


> You don't have to let this be a black cloud. This guy is just one poster, and he's out of line. Enjoy your Thanksgiving, and know that it will be you who will bring the joy, not this guy trying to take it away.


Thank you, bobka, that is very, very sweet. And, thanks to all of you who sent me such thoughtful and encouraging pm's this morning. I'm very sensitive and I get my feelings hurt easily, but considering seasalt's immediate apology after my post, I don't think for one moment that his intentions were meant to be cruel or hurtful. In fact, I'm certain that the point that he was trying to make is that there are many different ways of "being honest," and some are less hurtful than others. But, if memory serves me correct, I do not believe that seasalt was ever a BS. I believe that he may be assuming that since B1 is still expressing the depth of his pain nearly 6 months after D-Day, that I am not tempering my honesty with compassion in my private conversations with B1. The fact is, I'd like to believe that I am a compassionate person and that I do not lack in communication skills. But, he has an excellent point and it has been well-taken. The words and actions of a WS are very significant in the healing of a BS. So, is time.... and it is going to take a lot of time for B1 to heal from my betrayal. Fortunately, we have _until death do us part!_

Today is my busiest day of the year as I am preparing for Thanksgiving tomorrow. But, I had to take our special needs son in to see a spine specialist this morning. His scoliosis had become significantly worse in the last 10 weeks since his most recent surgery. We could have been facing as many as 3-4 additional surgeries, including the possibility of having to go in through his chest wall. I have been beside myself about this for the last few weeks. After a consultation with one of the finest spine specialist in country, this morning, which I am so thankful that we were "squeezed in" to see, we received excellent news. He will require only one surgery as this problem and it's cause were caught very quickly before any irreversible damage could be done. We will have many appointments in the next few weeks, but no surgery until after the holidays..... yay!!! :smthumbup:

To all of you who post here, or simply just read, B1 and I hope that you have a wonderful Thanksgiving with your family and friends. You guys will certainly be on my list of people to be thankful for this year. While I am not happy about the reason we have become "virtual friends," I am very grateful to have had your support and encouragement along the way

The one thing that I will be the most thankful for this Thanksgiving is that B1 loved me the most when I was the least lovable and the least deserving of his love. I am so very, very blessed!

Happy Thanksgiving and take care,
~EI

P.S. I love you, B1!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Thanks B1,I never thought it would take this long to get a grip.It still hurts but all I could think about today was CSS and spending some time together over the four day weekend.
> She says dont dwell on it but sometimes it just cant be helped.
> I still think the best therapy for me is getting my hands on him for all the calls and crap he said.
> He's fast,I'll give him that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cal, I think you've gotta let him go. He can't do anymore damage now. Let the healing take over, and let the past be the past. Pray about this.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> His scoliosis had become significantly worse in the last 10 weeks since his most recent surgery. We could have been facing as many as 3-4 additional surgeries, including the possibility of having to go in through his chest wall. I have been beside myself about this for the last few weeks. After a consultation with one of the finest spine specialist in country, this morning, which I am so thankful that we were "squeezed in" to see, we received excellent news. He will require only one surgery as this problem and it's cause were caught very quickly before any irreversible damage could be done. We will have many appointments in the next few weeks, but no surgery until after the holidays..... yay!!! :smthumbup:


If it helps any, our daughter had scoliosis and had spinal fusion surgery when she was 15 (about 8 years ago). She came through with flying colors, and is in great shape now! Funny aside; she did have some pain coming out of surgery, and uttered her first F-word. It was kind of cute.

Now all she can't do is sky-dive or bungy-jump, but otherwise, her life is normal. And the best news is that she should be arriving here in a few hours to see us. Woo-hoo!


----------



## calvin

bobka said:


> Cal, I think you've gotta let him go. He can't do anymore damage now. Let the healing take over, and let the past be the past. Pray about this.


Yes,I've been told this many times.
I never said a bad thing to him about his family or threatend to go to his house and do things to his family like he did to me.
I really wonder if he was hoping I'd hit CSS or something,stuff he said was untrue and disgusting.
There is no way around this one,he ran twice after setting me up.
He's a couple towns over and I have seen him in traffic.
Gods going to sit this one out.
I cant help it.
He will reap what he has sown.Should have left us alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bobka said:


> If it helps any, our daughter had scoliosis and had spinal fusion surgery when she was 15 (about 8 years ago). She came through with flying colors, and is in great shape now! Funny aside; she did have some pain coming out of surgery, and uttered her first F-word. It was kind of cute.
> 
> Now all she can't do is sky-dive or bungy-jump, but otherwise, her life is normal. And the best news is that she should be arriving here in a few hours to see us. Woo-hoo!


I think that we are very lucky and our son will not have to have the spinal fusion surgery. I'm still on a learning curve about all of this. 

I hope that you and your wife have a wonderful Thanksgiving and get to truly enjoy having your kids come in. One day B1 and I will experience that, as well.... we just have to get them to leave first! :rofl:


----------



## calvin

Wellp,I've been beating CSS home this week,that never happens so time to get started on the kitchen 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

EI,

Your words helped a stranger who was feeling bad about himself. I know they will be able to soothe the heart and mind of someone you love and loves you.

EI reminds me of the start of the refrain from "Old MacDonald". How about EverInsightful?

Thanks,

Seasalt

P.S. It was horribly cheeky of me to presume to set one up for you but you knocked it out of the park.


----------



## EI

seasalt said:


> EI,
> 
> Your words helped a stranger who was feeling bad about himself. I know they will be able to soothe the heart and mind of someone you love and loves you.
> 
> EI reminds me of the start of the refrain from "Old MacDonald". How about EverInsightful?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Seasalt
> 
> P.S. It was horribly cheeky of me to presume to set one up for you but you knocked it out of the park.


seasalt,

After looking back through several of your prior posts on this thread and others, I could clearly see that you have the best of intentions in all of your posts. As I said earlier, I tend to be overly sensitive, at times, and this morning I had a lot on my mind with preparing for Thanksgiving and taking my son to the doctor. My biggest fear when I read your post was that it might cause B1 to trigger. He and I are very in tune with one another these days. If one of us is feeling down it will bring the other one down and vice versa. 

You make some very valid points, and I do try very hard with B1 to be sensitive to his fears and insecurities. Unfortunately, there is nothing that is easy about recovering from infidelity. Please accept my apology, as well. I tend to be, somewhat, on the defensive side, at times, and it is not unusual for me to drop a 10 gallon bucket on a one gallon fire. 

As far as "EI" goes... yes, I sing the Old MacDonald song in my mind nearly every single time I type it out. I'm pretty sure that I could change my name to just about anything else and the *TAM*_ers_ would still call me "EI." My name has 8 letters in it. My brothers shortened it to a 3 letter version and called me that my whole life. B1 quickly picked up on it when we started dating.... it was less to write out and easier to spell. I'm pretty sure that "EI" is going to stick. B1 and I have fun with our alter ego names... we use them at home when the kids aren't around.... except for our daughter.... she is completely on to us, knows about TAM and often threatens to post, herself, if I don't stay off of it when she is at our house visiting.

I do truly hope that you and your family have a wonderful Thanksgiving and please feel free to continue sharing your thoughts and wisdom here on the Reconciliation thread.

Take Care,
~EI


----------



## ChangingMe

Happy Thanksgiving, TAM family! I am beyond thankful this morning. Sipping coffee at my in-law's house, surrounded by my wonderful family, my parents coming over in a few hours. I am so blessed, and I take none of it for granted. Hope you all have a wonderful day!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Something I read on another site pointed out something I am doing wrong with my healing that I wasn't aware of.

The topic was this:

*If I heal then they win!*

I thought WOW, yes I think this. If I heal and get better then EI wins, she gets away with it, she gets away with it all.
So, in a way I hold on to the pain in order for her NOT to win.

I don't want EI to just get away with this, but, in reality she didn't I guess. And, I know she absolutely hates what she did and what she became. She is sorry. But, I can't shake the fact she will get away with all the lies, deception and the affair and have everything still in tact, all here waiting for her including happiness.

I know..I know.. Illogical thinking, I have to hurt,be in pain...loose happiness, to win? 

Doesn't make sense does it, but I have thought this many times. And if I have thought this perhaps others have also, so I am posting it.

Thoughts?


----------



## daisygirl 41

Yes B1 I have also had that thought. But I have tried very hard to let it go because it was holding back our R too.
This R thing? It's not about winning or losing. It's about healing together and moving forward. Once we let go of the things that are holding us back it truly is a blessing.
We all have our own little things that keep us from truly moving forward but 'together' we can all get past them.

You are the winner my friend. You have fought for your wife and your family and not given up even when things have got really bleak.
I am the winner because my H and I are more connected now than we have been for years and that despite his A not because of it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> Something I read on another site pointed out something I am doing wrong with my healing that I wasn't aware of.
> 
> The topic was this:
> 
> *If I heal then they win!*
> 
> I thought WOW, yes I think this. If I heal and get better then EI wins, she gets away with it, she gets away with it all.
> So, in a way I hold on to the pain in order for her NOT to win.
> 
> I don't want EI to just get away with this, but, in reality she didn't I guess. And, I know she absolutely hates what she did and what she became. She is sorry. But, I can't shake the fact she will get away with all the lies, deception and the affair and have everything still in tact, all here waiting for her including happiness.
> 
> I know..I know.. Illogical thinking, I have to hurt,be in pain...loose happiness, to win?
> 
> Doesn't make sense does it, but I have thought this many times. And if I have thought this perhaps others have also, so I am posting it.
> 
> Thoughts?


Well. I dished the hell back. All that did was make mine worse. B1 it takes a lot of strength to heal. IMO opinion it by no means says they win. 

There is a difference between healing and pretending it didn't happen. Pretending means they win. If you let the same problems reside then they win. The thing they win is a oppertunity to become a better person and work on the marriage. Nothing more.


----------



## jh52

betrayed1 said:


> Something I read on another site pointed out something I am doing wrong with my healing that I wasn't aware of.
> 
> The topic was this:
> 
> *If I heal then they win!*
> 
> I thought WOW, yes I think this. If I heal and get better then EI wins, she gets away with it, she gets away with it all.
> So, in a way I hold on to the pain in order for her NOT to win.
> 
> I don't want EI to just get away with this, but, in reality she didn't I guess. And, I know she absolutely hates what she did and what she became. She is sorry. But, I can't shake the fact she will get away with all the lies, deception and the affair and have everything still in tact, all here waiting for her including happiness.
> 
> I know..I know.. Illogical thinking, I have to hurt,be in pain...loose happiness, to win?
> 
> Doesn't make sense does it, but I have thought this many times. And if I have thought this perhaps others have also, so I am posting it.
> 
> Thoughts?


Hi B1 --- I found this on a web site -- Maritial Healing

The four phases of healing:

The healing process includes first uncovering the extent and the causes of the infidelity, next making a decision about addressing what has been uncovered and third doing the hard work of resolving conflicts and anger and of building trust. The final phase is accepting the trauma and believing that some good can come from it. 


Here is the link to the website -- there is alot of info here --- hope this helps. 


Marital Infidelity

Happy Thanksgiving !!


----------



## happyman64

betrayed1 said:


> Something I read on another site pointed out something I am doing wrong with my healing that I wasn't aware of.
> 
> The topic was this:
> 
> *If I heal then they win!*
> 
> I thought WOW, yes I think this. If I heal and get better then EI wins, she gets away with it, she gets away with it all.
> So, in a way I hold on to the pain in order for her NOT to win.
> 
> I don't want EI to just get away with this, but, in reality she didn't I guess. And, I know she absolutely hates what she did and what she became. She is sorry. But, I can't shake the fact she will get away with all the lies, deception and the affair and have everything still in tact, all here waiting for her including happiness.
> 
> I know..I know.. Illogical thinking, I have to hurt,be in pain...loose happiness, to win?
> 
> Doesn't make sense does it, but I have thought this many times. And if I have thought this perhaps others have also, so I am posting it.
> 
> Thoughts?


B1

There is no winning with infidelity. Both parties have lost. Lost each other. Lost a little of themselves.

But when those 2 people can help each other heal, laugh and love again, well they have done something so few ever accomplish.

They overcame their differences and decided they were much stronger together than apart.

They conquered infidelity.

Those 2 people truly understand what love and marriage really means.

Keep going. You are getting there.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

HM64


----------



## calvin

Happy Thankgs giving guys.
Hope you all have a good one with your families.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

betrayed1 said:


> Something I read on another site pointed out something I am doing wrong with my healing that I wasn't aware of.
> 
> The topic was this:
> 
> *If I heal then they win!*
> 
> I thought WOW, yes I think this. If I heal and get better then EI wins, she gets away with it, she gets away with it all.
> So, in a way I hold on to the pain in order for her NOT to win.
> 
> I don't want EI to just get away with this, but, in reality she didn't I guess. And, I know she absolutely hates what she did and what she became. She is sorry. But, I can't shake the fact she will get away with all the lies, deception and the affair and have everything still in tact, all here waiting for her including happiness.
> 
> I know..I know.. Illogical thinking, I have to hurt,be in pain...loose happiness, to win?
> 
> Doesn't make sense does it, but I have thought this many times. And if I have thought this perhaps others have also, so I am posting it.
> 
> Thoughts?


In reality, yes she did. She has the same relationship back with you plus the little extra excitement she has now parked in her mind that she can bring up.

You have your hurt and pain. But that's part of the price you were willing to pay to have her back. Maybe if you look at it as being generous because you loved her enough to take on that suffering, then this outlook may ease the hurt and pain?


----------



## happyman64

You enjoy Thanksgiving Calvin with CSS.


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> You enjoy Thanksgiving Calvin with CSS.


I intend to,happy Thanksgiving to you and your fam hm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Something I read on another site pointed out something I am doing wrong with my healing that I wasn't aware of.
> 
> The topic was this:
> 
> *If I heal then they win!*
> 
> I thought WOW, yes I think this. If I heal and get better then EI wins, she gets away with it, she gets away with it all.
> So, in a way I hold on to the pain in order for her NOT to win.
> 
> I don't want EI to just get away with this, but, in reality she didn't I guess. And, I know she absolutely hates what she did and what she became. She is sorry. But, I can't shake the fact she will get away with all the lies, deception and the affair and have everything still in tact, all here waiting for her including happiness.
> 
> I know..I know.. Illogical thinking, I have to hurt,be in pain...loose happiness, to win?
> 
> Doesn't make sense does it, but I have thought this many times. And if I have thought this perhaps others have also, so I am posting it.
> 
> Thoughts?


It doesnt make sense to me at all. Nobody, first of all, is trying to "win" anything, and EI wasn't looking to "win" anything through what she did. 

If you get to healing, everyone "wins" if you have to look at it that way, but winning presupposes some sort of competition. It's not a competition, it's a marriage, a partnership. Keep your partnership strong, keep healing and come out a better person. It's all we can hope for.

Happiest of Thanksgivings to you all!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Happy Thankgs giving guys.
> Hope you all have a good one with your families.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have a great one. Calvin rocks!


----------



## calvin

bobka said:


> You have a great one. Calvin rocks!


Why yes I do bobka and I'm also very humble...lol!
Your kinda right about winning,you cant win unless you have a good team.
You know,us against the world thing.
We can win as a team,Me and CSS can win,B1 & EI can win,bobka and his wifed,pidge and joe can win,jh & his wife also.
We can win with our partners,we cant do it alone.
I dont believe anyone here is in competition with their spouse,you WONT win that way.
Together,any thing is possible.
Keep the faith people and enjoy your time with family and and the love of your life today,tomorrow,and forever.
Happy Thanksgiving again.
God bless all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Everyone on this thread can win with their partners,sorry if I left some names out but I got taters to peel
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Wow EI cooked a fantastic Thanksgiving dinner. she worked through the night preparing it and making everything perfect. I am so thankful for her and our family. 

now for a nap 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

Betrayed1,

I hope I do a better job with this post than my last. I'm still using my wife's tablet but this time I'll make sure I'm able edit and re-edit it before I hit the post button. Not an excuse for the last post just a bad reason for it coming out badly.

First I'd like to say that I'm a bit surprised at the amount of empathy I can have for a stranger who lives over a thousand miles away. Your post last week really got to me. Maybe it'll help now that the Giants are past the bye week. With that said it would please me to give you my thoughts about why your thoughts about winning an losing are inconsequencial.

First, what did EI win? She doesn't have the other man in her life. She has to acknowledge the fact no matter how she may characterize him that he didn't care enough about her to persuade her to stay with him. If I remember correctly one of your sons was particularly upset with her so she has a least for the short term affected the esteem in which he holds her. I believe she is remorseful so every so often when she sees the man she loves looking at her she can guess what he's thinking and once more regret her faithlessness.

I think you can find many reasons not reconcile but in my mind the question you have to ask yourself is - Will I be happier without her than with her for the rest of my life? Don't you want to be the person with which she goes on her first cruise? Don't you want to experience grandchildren with her? I think that God forbid, the next time that you have a serious health issue you couldn't do better than with EI at your side.

You, perhaps too much, took blame for the state of your relationship over the past few years. Would you want to know that when given the chance to have something worth having you still fell short? The people here talk about the gift of reconcilliation. I truly believe that it is better to give than receive, especially when the gift is treasured and ultimately reciprocated.

Hang tough,

Seasalt


----------



## calvin

R is a gift.Isnt it?
I never thought of it that way but it really is.
You give a gift to someone who will appreciate it.
EI does.
At first I wasnt so sure but as this thread has progressed ,so have they.
I 100% believe they got this.
As a fellow Kentuckian ,its my duty to have their back,even if I'm next door to &$%#& Chicago.
They got this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Wow EI cooked a fantastic Thanksgiving dinner. she worked through the night preparing it and making everything perfect. I am so thankful for her and our family.
> 
> now for a nap
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nobody can cook like a Kentucky lady....no one.
Biscuits n gravey are second to none.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

I've been all around the world and can't say I know any Kentucky women. However, Neil Diamond, a fellow Brooklynite, wrote a somewhat catchy and popular song about one so i don't need convincing.


----------



## B1

Thanks everyone for your insightful and helpful posts. I don't have a big post in me right now, but thank you all for your kind words and wisdom.

EI is out shopping with our daughter now hitting the stores early. It's going to be a long night for her, our daughter can run you ragged when she is shopping and EI is running on about 3 hours of sleep in the last 24 hours.

Take care all.


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> Thanks everyone for your insightful and helpful posts. I don't have a big post in me right now, but thank you all for your kind words and wisdom.
> 
> EI is out shopping with our daughter now hitting the stores early. It's going to be a long night for her, our daughter can run you ragged when she is shopping and EI is running on about 3 hours of sleep in the last 24 hours.
> 
> Take care all.


Yes,we do have a lot to be grateful about.
EI's shopping?
You need to reign her in B1,that women will run herself ragged if you dont watch her.
Youre a good woman EI but dont try to save the world in one day. Take a break sometimes.
No matter what we're not yankees!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Thanksgiving was kind of a letdown for me. Although we saw her family (we see them a lot, as we all live in the same, small town) and the kids, it was kind of muted for me, as the haze of this affair, and everyone's awareness of it, seemed to cloud things for me. Nobody, of course, mentioned anything, and outwardly, WW and I are getting along very well, and all can see that. 

I think that holidays are just hard for me - no close family to see, no big excitement over football games (I watched 2.5 games yesterday, which would be a record for me), nothing much to look forward to. Just this constant awareness of trying to reconcile, and the spector of how my life might look if things don't work out. 

Also, this will be a weird year as far as Christmas goes; the kids are taking a trip to Europe over Christmas with the ex-husband and will not be around for the big family holiday bash. We may not even put up a tree this year. 

Finally, the weather here has officially turned ****ty. We got an inch of snow last night, and it's around 23 degrees here. I suffer from the worst Seasonal Affective Disorder...

I'm now past the "I'll do anything to reconcile" phase; I feel that she really has to step up, and she is doing so. Now the hard part - monitoring progress. I'm just so tired from all of this. I know I didn't cook dinner for 25 people yesterday, yet I'm emotionally worn out. Can anyone else relate?


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## B1

bobka said:


> Thanksgiving was kind of a letdown for me. Although we saw her family (we see them a lot, as we all live in the same, small town) and the kids, it was kind of muted for me, as the haze of this affair, and everyone's awareness of it, seemed to cloud things for me. Nobody, of course, mentioned anything, and outwardly, WW and I are getting along very well, and all can see that.
> 
> I think that holidays are just hard for me - no close family to see, no big excitement over football games (I watched 2.5 games yesterday, which would be a record for me), nothing much to look forward to. Just this constant awareness of trying to reconcile, and the spector of how my life might look if things don't work out.
> 
> Also, this will be a weird year as far as Christmas goes; the kids are taking a trip to Europe over Christmas with the ex-husband and will not be around for the big family holiday bash. We may not even put up a tree this year.
> 
> Finally, the weather here has officially turned ****ty. We got an inch of snow last night, and it's around 23 degrees here. I suffer from the worst Seasonal Affective Disorder...
> 
> I'm now past the "I'll do anything to reconcile" phase; I feel that she really has to step up, and she is doing so. Now the hard part - monitoring progress. I'm just so tired from all of this. I know I didn't cook dinner for 25 people yesterday, yet I'm emotionally worn out. Can anyone else relate?


As you know yesterday wasn't the best for me either. I woke up sad and really wasn't able to shake it off all day. We had family over and all I could think about was the A and how I could heal and move on. 

I am so tired of thinking about it some days, but you can't not think about it. It's just there, always there wanting your complete undivided attention. So, yes, I get the emotionally wore out part, it just wears you out sometimes.

I worked on something this morning taking points from various articles. These were points that caught my attention.


Stop seeing myself as a victim and see myself as a survivor!
See this as a wake up call, to stop me from sleepwalking through life.
See this as a way to stop taking my marriage and wife for granted.
See R as a gift.
See the blessing in disguise here.
See this as a true second chance for a happy life and marriage.
Practice forgiving thoughts, free myself from the effects of her hurtful actions.
Practice true forgiveness..really let it go, for my own good, do it for me.
Hang in there bobka, it's just a bad moment, hopefully not a bad day. If so, like you told me once, there is tomorrow. I feel much better today than I did yesterday. 

Read some of the articles on this site, it's really helped me.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> As you know yesterday wasn't the best for me either. I woke up sad and really wasn't able to shake it off all day. We had family over and all I could think about was the A and how I could heal and move on.
> 
> I am so tired of thinking about it some days, but you can't not think about it. It's just there, always there wanting your complete undivided attention. So, yes, I get the emotionally wore out part, it just wears you out sometimes.
> 
> I AM SO FVCKING TIRED OF THINKING ABOUT IT! ARGH!
> 
> I worked on something this morning taking points from various articles. These were points that caught my attention.
> 
> 
> Stop seeing myself as a victim and see myself as a survivor!
> See this as a wake up call, to stop me from sleepwalking through life.
> See this as a way to stop taking my marriage and wife for granted.
> See R as a gift.
> See the blessing in disguise here.
> See this as a true second chance for a happy life and marriage.
> Practice forgiving thoughts, free myself from the effects of her hurtful actions.
> Practice true forgiveness..really let it go, for my own good, do it for me.
> 
> These are all very good. It's so easy to read this kind of stuff, but so hard to implement when your brain just wants to fvck with you all the time!
> 
> Why does this have to be such hard work?
> 
> Hang in there bobka, it's just a bad moment, hopefully not a bad day. If so, like you told me once, there is tomorrow. I feel much better today than I did yesterday.
> 
> Read some of the articles on this site, it's really helped me.


I checked out some of those articles in the past, having found her from a web search. She's good. I just don't know how to manage my feelings, I guess. Well, I hope today goes better for you, too.


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## calvin

B1 and bobka,
Ecellent list B1, do it and live it.EI is doing all she can to repare the damage,give it some more time.
bobka,I feel for you man,we are all brothers in arms here.Please put up the tree and the lights,it will make you feel better,hang in there man,it WILL get better.Right now it doesnt seem like it but I promise it will.
Nine months out for me,this crap doesnt turn on a dime guys,its a long slow hard turn into the wind but you'll make it.
It sucks I know,we all know it.
We all have a death grip on our lives right now,it WILL loosen up,I promise.
After last night I can actually see that its going to be alright.
Even if me and CSS were'nt going to be together its still alright but we will be together and you guys will be too.
I'm sorry for how much crap you guys went through,it hurts...Bad.
Just believe,keep pushing.
Like jh says,day by day and hour by hour.You both will make it.
bobka,what do you think about bringing the wife to tams,it might help.Think about it,its working for quite a few couples on here.If you dont,I can dig it.
Hang in there,it gets better,trust me.
It really does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> B1 and bobka,
> Ecellent list B1, do it and live it.EI is doing all she can to repare the damage,give it some more time.
> bobka,I feel for you man,we are all brothers in arms here.Please put up the tree and the lights,it will make you feel better,hang in there man,it WILL get better.Right now it doesnt seem like it but I promise it will.
> Nine months out for me,this crap doesnt turn on a dime guys,its a long slow hard turn into the wind but you'll make it.
> It sucks I know,we all know it.
> We all have a death grip on our lives right now,it WILL loosen up,I promise.
> 
> All right, I'll go with your promise there - you've been through it. But for now, it's just so hard.
> 
> After last night I can actually see that its going to be alright.
> Even if me and CSS were'nt going to be together its still alright but we will be together and you guys will be too.
> I'm sorry for how much crap you guys went through,it hurts...Bad.
> Just believe,keep pushing.
> Like jh says,day by day and hour by hour.You both will make it.
> bobka,what do you think about bringing the wife to tams,it might help.Think about it,its working for quite a few couples on here.If you dont,I can dig it.
> 
> I can't even begin to imagine the can of worms that would open in our lives. She's not much of a social person, and then there's the fact that she'd be able to read everything I've ever written about her on here.
> 
> You guys that can do this publicly get a lot of admiration from me - you are doing us all a service, and it's so appreciated. But everyone can't do it that way.
> 
> Besides that, I need someone to go to that's NOT her to run this stuff by. You guys are that for me.
> 
> Hang in there,it gets better,trust me.
> It really does.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for your kind words and good wishes. I guess my life is just not in the place I'd like it to be in, in a lot of ways, and this affair stuff is just part of it. But my other issues underlie what was wrong with our marriage, what may still be wrong with our marriage, so it all counts, huh?


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## CantSitStill

Bobka, you are not alone in feeling this gloom. It was this time last year I was havin my EA and the holidays were happening yet Calvin and I were not in a good place at all. I know this runs through Calvin's mind yet he is fighting for a brighter future with me and he is doing a very good job of letting go..yes he has a long way to go. I feel I want to make the holidays more special so that we can make good memories. We both know we almost lost eachother and we both have much more appreciation and passion for eachother. You will go through a whole bunch of horrible emotions along the way. I hope your wife carries you thru. Almost a year out and Calvin still stuggles but we do have alot of good days also.I feel it's never too late to change. Change ourselves and changes in our relationship. I'll be praying for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

EI will probably be a little quiet on here for a while, her dog of 11 years is dying, he's been sick for a long time but she thinks it's coming to and end. He stopped eating yesterday and so far refuses food today. He also can't go to the bathroom.

This will really be a very hard blow to EI, she loves that dog and he loves her.


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## pidge70

I'm so sorry! Please give EI my condolences.


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## ChangingMe

betrayed1 said:


> EI will probably be a little quiet on here for a while, her dog of 11 years is dying, he's been sick for a long time but she thinks it's coming to and end. He stopped eating yesterday and so far refuses food today. He also can't go to the bathroom.
> 
> This will really be a very hard blow to EI, she loves that dog and he loves her.


Oh, B1, I'm so sorry to hear that. We had to put our dog down in March, and we'd had him since he was a puppy. It was an all-of-a-sudden thing, and so hard. Both DD and I wept like kids over losing him. He and our other dog were our babies before we had kids. Hugs and prayers to EI and all of you -losing a pet is so hard.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

EI, so sorry to hear about your pup. I lost a "lifelong" dog a few years ago, and it was so hard. I know the kids will be having a tough time, too, so blessings to all of you, and just keep on keeping the faith.


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## jh52

B1 -- please give EI a hug and send our thoughts to her.

We never hads kids and when we had to put our shepard huskey down -- it was one of the hardest things we ever did.

Having been in the room with the vet -- and seeing how peaceful our "Princess" passed helps now -- but of course at the time it hurt like hell.


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## calvin

Sorry to hear guys,I had to put a ouplt down,they were like family to me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Sorry to hear guys,I had to put a ouplt down,they were like family to me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just gotta ask, what's an "ouplt"?


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## calvin

bobka said:


> Just gotta ask, what's an "ouplt"?


Sorry,typo.I had to put a couple of my dogs down.
Big fingers little keyboard
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Went back and read the first few pages of this post (can you believe we are on page 178 of this thread?), from before I was a TAMer. 

Reconciliation is having your best friend back. During our separation, my wife would not tell me where she was going, was on a diet, working out like crazy, buying "renewing" masks and tooth-whiteners, doing everything she could to look good for OM. I don't need all that stuff from her. Although she has not let herself go, she's back to her "normal" routine, and is sharing everything with me again.

She has, a couple of times, wanted me to skip things I needed to do so that we could be together for an evening. That didn't happen, but that she said it was enough to know that she wants to be with me, now and going forward. And I have my best friend back.

We started doing a daily devotional reading; something we probably should have done all along. Yes, it's a Christian-based book (The One Year Love Talk Devotional for Couples (One Year Signature): Les Parrott, Leslie Parrott: 9781414337395: Amazon.com: Books), but there are other daily books that couples can go through and just spend a few minutes on their relationship each day, deliberately. Some of you may want to go to Amazon and check some out.


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## CantSitStill

Please pray for EI guys...her dog is dying : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

It's hard to lose a pet that has been there for you when you feel no one else cares. It's an animal yes but your dog can also be your best friend and is always there when you need them no matter what. That dog has been her comfort thru all of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I understand,its not just a animal,its part of the family.
Bandit lost his dog,I have lost a couple also.
We all feel when something like this happends.
My dog Stinker was one of my best friends,I still miss him.
I'm soo damn sorry B1 and El.
Prayers
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

bobka said:


> Thanks for your kind words and good wishes. I guess my life is just not in the place I'd like it to be in, in a lot of ways, and this affair stuff is just part of it. But my other issues underlie what was wrong with our marriage, what may still be wrong with our marriage, so it all counts, huh?


I think possibly the people here saved Calvin's life. This stuff can really mess your head up and I believe Calvin coming here helped keep the little bit of strength he had together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I think possibly the people here saved Calvin's life. This stuff can really mess your head up and I believe Calvin coming here helped keep the little bit of strength he had together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I cant argue with that,quiet a few on Tams pulled me out of a bad place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

I love you guys...... You all have been a lifeline for both of us. I am just hurting a lot right now. Luke, my biting, seizing, incontinent, diaper wearing dog is not doing well tonight. I couldn't bring myself to take him in to the vet this morning because I knew he wouldn't be coming home with me. I decided to wait until Monday so all of the kids could see him one more time and say goodbye. But, I think I was really hoping that he would perk up. It's not gonna happen. He has refused to eat, drink or go outside all day. He is just lying in my arms or at my feet looking lifeless. He even passed up an opportunity to bite B1 earlier today when he had the chance. Luke rarely passes up an opportunity to bite someone if they try to touch me when I'm holding him. He let me trim the hair around his eyes tonight and he usually bites the scissors when I do that. He is tiny but fierce...... like his Mom. 

So, anyway, thanks for all of your sweet words of encouragement.... It's never a good time to lose someone/thing you love, but seriously, this timing couldn't be worse. :'(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I know it's hard, hang in there Sis
You'll be ok, it takes time but you will be ok
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AMU

Thoughts and prayers for your sweet little Luke and your entire family at this difficult time. I know how hard it is to say good-bye to a beloved pet and my heart goes out to you, EI.


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## calvin

Hey,that dog lived the good life with a family who loves the pup and that dog loved you guys back.
You all gained so much with that dog.
I'm sorry El and B1.
Your dog had good life because of you guys.
Take some comfort in knowing that he lived a good life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

He's bleeding internally, now. It's coming out in his urine. Our vet won't be open until 9:00 a.m. Monday morning. I'd rather not go anywhere else. I'd like to take him to the vet he knows, that he has had his whole life. He is very quiet but he must be suffering, terribly, right? He isn't whimpering or crying and if I get up and walk into another room he is still trying to follow me. Do y'all think he is suffering but he is in shock and can't whimper. I don't trust my own judgement at this point. I don't want him to suffer. I thought he might drift off quietly. He didn't act like he was in pain. But now, with this blood, I'm afraid he is in shock. Oh God, someone tell me what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whip Morgan

Yes E1 he is suffering. We just had to put down our dog of 14 years. It's heart wrenching. But you need to find a 24 hour vet hospital, if you can. You know it's the right thing to do. There comes a time as a pet owner you have to face it: are you keeping the pet alive for him/her, or yourself ? My heart out to you and the family, and your dog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Can you slip him some melatonin til tomorrow,it will slow him down and help
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

My vet told me that benadryl will not hurt the dog, she suggested it for my dog's reverse sneaze attacks but my point is..if you give your dog some benadryl it may help him sleep. Gosh I know this totally sucks for you : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

I just got off the phone with our vet's offIce. They told me where to take him. I HATE THIS.... I HATE THIS ..... I HATE THIS. I don't want to do this, but I have to.... I have no choice. We're waiting for our youngest son to get home in a few minutes because we can't leave our special needs son home alone this late at night. He's already in bed, anyway. Just a few more minutes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I'm really sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

I'm so sorry EI


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## calvin

Maybe you can keep him going for awhile El
but its not fair to him.
Let him go peaceful.
So damn sorry.Been there and it flat out sucks.
Sorry guys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I know this is gonna be a rough night but please try to get your rest EI, you had no other choice and it's ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

On the way to the vet's office Luke starting twitching in my arms. As soon as we got in to the examination room and I started to hand him to the vet tech, blood started pouring out of him. She grabbed him and said she was going to clean him up. The vet came out about two minutes later and said that he had expired. They didn't even have to put him to sleep. I was going to be with him. They said he had died in my arms. They cleaned him up and put him in a box and gave him back to us. They wouldn't even take any money. Oh my God, I can't believe my seizing, biting, incontinent, diaper wearing precious, Luke, is gone. He was my constant companion..... My precious little side-kick. <3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Oh, EI, my heart and prayers are with you. I am so, so sorry about your loss of your precious Luke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

So sorry for your loss EI


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## jh52

I am so sorry EI -- he is no longer suffering and is at peace.

You take care !!!

A little prayer for your buddy:

"Faithful friend, loyal companion,
we say farewell to you now.
You have kept us warm at night,
protected our home
and offered us unconditional love.
For this we are thankful,
and we will remember you forever."


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## B1

Thank you all so much for your thoughts, prayers and kind posts. EI handled it better than I thought, but..I think she was just in shock last night, and didn't really know how to respond. When the vet tech told us he was gone, EI just looked at me with tears and in total despair and said.."What am I supposed to do". It broke my heart.

Throughout all this she still asked me on several occasions how I was doing. She just woke up now and asked how I was because she heard me sniffing. This isn't because of Luke either, she is still asking me if I am doing ok regarding the A. 

Today we will bury Luke, that will be hard on her I know. Thanks again everyone for posting. You being there really meant a lot to us.


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## daisygirl 41

Love and hugs to you both
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

So, you were with him when he crossed over the Rainbow Bridge?

You loved him, he loved you. You were there for him.


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## CantSitStill

EI you tookb such good care of that poor dog all the way through, you are a strong girl. So sorry for your loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Sorry you guys,he had a good life with loving caring owners.
I know how it hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

EI and B1,

I am so sorry for your loss. Pets are a great comfort to us when we need them. They ask for so little in return. They are truly a gift.

EI, My wife is very spiritual and she asked me to convey these words to you.

Luke was there for you through all the turmoil in recent years. He may have been sick for a long time but he knew you needed him. Now he knows that you and B1 are going to be ok and he needed to go and be at peace. His final act of love was to go to his final rest in your arms.


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## theroad

betrayed1 said:


> *If I heal then they win!*
> 
> I thought WOW, yes I think this. If I heal and get better then EI wins, she gets away with it, she gets away with it all.
> So, in a way I hold on to the pain in order for her NOT to win.
> 
> I don't want EI to just get away with this, but, in reality she didn't I guess. And, I know she absolutely hates what she did and what she became. She is sorry. But, I can't shake the fact she will get away with all the lies, deception and the affair and have everything still in tact, all here waiting for her including happiness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The remorseful WS is just as broken as the BS. They both have pain. They both have to heal. They both win because the marriage was saved and hopefully they learned to have a marriage that was better then pre affair.
> 
> There is no way that an affair can be undone. If the BS has to have their WS affair undone then the marriage can not be saved.
> 
> So better to stay mad at the WS and divorce them or get past the affair and recover the marriage.
> 
> Is just another way that Ann Landers would say when asked by a BS on whether to D the WS or not.
> 
> Would your life be better off with them or without them?
> 
> Your WW handed you a s**t sandwich. You eat it or not. This is not rocket science here.
Click to expand...


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## Hope Springs Eternal

theroad said:


> Would your life be better off with them or without them?


This is the real question, and this is why we are all here trying to reconcile, because it's better _with_ them.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> He was my constant companion..... My precious little side-kick. <3
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so very sorry.

EI, what breed of dog was he?


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## CantSitStill

Was he the same breed as Toto from The Wizard of Oz?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

I can't really wrap my head around this. Teddy, our little Shorkie (Yorkie/Shih-Tzu mix) is looking for Luke. He seems kind of depressed. Teddy would never go outside without Luke, so I know that is going to be a huge chore for me. It'll be like having a puppy all over again. Teddy is 4 and Luke taught him the ropes..... like how to escape the fenced backyard.... go for a little walk and come back to the front door and bark before Mom even realizes you're gone. Luke taught Teddy how to make sure that they got treats every time the cat got a treat. 

Luke taught me that, at least in his eyes, that I was worthy of unconditional love. For the price of food and shelter a dog will give you a lifetime of love and kisses (licks,) they'll lay on top of the covers so that your feet and legs don't feel a cold draft, they'll happily eat and drink after you if you leave your food, momentarily, unguarded.... no fear of germs... LOL In fact, Luke's last meal was on Friday afternoon. I was having some Thanksgiving leftovers and left my plate on the coffee table in the living room. I got up long enough to lift our s/n son into the shower for our home health aide and in less than 30 seconds Luke was off of the couch... on the coffee table and eating the remainder of my food. If I had known that was going to be his last meal I wouldn't have taken it away from him and thrown it away.

I cannot believe that he's gone. You know they won't live forever, yet, losing them is still so unfathomable. They become such a part of you. I was taking a bath after we got home last night and when I got out of the tub I found myself watching my step because Luke was always lying right in front of the bathtub on the rug.... waiting for me. Sometimes, he even managed to jump up and land right on the side of the tub where my towels were laying and his fluffy black tail would be wagging back and forth in the water. It's been over 21 years since B1 and I had to have our ****er Spaniel, Rascal, put to sleep. I'm still not over it. I imagine this is gonna take me a lifetime. I've changed my mind about burying him. I'm going to take him to our vet's office tomorrow and have him cremated and keep his remains. That gives me some measure of comfort.

I'd like to think that Luke is in Heaven with my Dad... guarding him, once again. We bought Luke in 2001 as an early X-mas present for the kids. Shih-Tzu's were supposed to be wonderful family pets who loved everyone. Not this little 2 lb. black, fur ball beast. He immediately decided that my elderly father was "his human" and those pesky little kids were merely interlopers who must be done away with. One-by-one he bit them all. We realized that Luke didn't like children. Fortunately, the kids grew up and Luke, graciously, allowed us to keep them, after all. Sometimes, when daddy was upstairs in his bedroom Luke would spend the day, on the main floor with me.... only because I fed him and took him outside. In those days, he merely tolerated me. He only had eyes for my Dad. One day I was on the couch and Luke was on my lap. Daddy woke up and started to come down the stairs. I felt Luke tense up. This little beast that had moments before been resting comfortably on my lap was going to bite me. As Daddy rounded the stairs and walked past me, Luke looked at me as if to say, "I apologize in advance, but I am going to have to bite you when the ol' man walks past... I hope you'll understand, it's my job." When Daddy died, Luke decided that I was "his human." There weren't too many problems with that unless you tried to touch me when I was holding him or he was at my feet. Many, unsuspecting, people learned not to approach me when I was at the desk in the kitchen because Luke would lay under the desk at my feet. Our son-in-law almost lost a toe that way. Everyone at our house wears shoes.... all of the time. 

RIP Luke 10/28/01-11/25/12

As soon as I figure out how I will post of picture of him.

Thank you all for your support, encouragement and pm's in the last 24 hours. It has helped me more than you could possibly imagine. 

Take care,
~EI


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## EI

bobka said:


> I'm so very sorry.
> 
> EI, what breed of dog was he?





CantSitStill said:


> Was he the same breed as Toto from The Wizard of Oz?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Luke was a solid black Shih-Tzu.... they have long hair and big fluffy tails.

He isn't the same breed as Toto. I will try to figure out how to post pictures.


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## SomedayDig

Just read this, EI and B1. Regret and I are so sorry to hear this. Goodness, that was difficult to read through as we both dealt with our beautiful German Shepherd years ago.

Regret and I had a nice visit at her parent's place with her family. Nice and low key except that I had some kind of odd virus going on that seemed flu-ish. Headache, fever and body aches. I told myself that I wasn't going to be ill for our time...and it worked until the evening time, then it hit me full force. I went to bed Thursday at 9pm and got out of bed at 9:30 the next morning. It was gone.

Friday, Regret and I had a night out while the kids stayed with her family. We were at a nice little Irish Pub having a drink. We were just enjoying things. The subject turned to her sister - who has had issues with men throughout her adult life. Regret told me how she's never compromised a bit in her marriages. It hit me like a ton of bricks...this is a synopsis of what I said to Regret:

Love isn't really about compromise. It's about sacrifice. If someone walked through that door with a gun in their hand, I wouldn't compromise with them...I would sacrifice myself to get Regret away. I would do so willingly and lovingly without pause. Love doesn't hesitate in that instant. It acts withOUT compromise. It acts with sacrifice.

That doesn't change to sh-t she did to me with her stupid f'ng affair. We'll continue to work on ourselves and our marriage. I did learn one thing last week on Tuesday during my IC and MC sessions. I have been on overload with this crap for quite some time. I need some down time. Innately, I think that's why I've been steering clear of TAM as of late. I'll keep checking in.


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## CantSitStill

Interesting..as a child I had a shizu however you spell it but anyway, that little dog was my guard dog. My God she would always be with me and attacked everyone or anyone that came near me, she wouldn't let anyone in my room. My parents hated that and had her put to sleep..boy did I cry. I'll never forget how devistated I was. At the time I felt that dog was the only one that loved and understood me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Take all of the time you need, Dig. We're just happy to hear an update every now and then. We care about you guys! <3


----------



## happyman64

Ahh Dig you are so wise....

*Love isn't really about compromise. It's about sacrifice. If someone walked through that door with a gun in their hand, I wouldn't compromise with them...I would sacrifice myself to get Regret away. I would do so willingly and lovingly without pause. Love doesn't hesitate in that instant. It acts withOUT compromise. It acts with sacrifice.*

Sacrifice is one of the lessons that I have tried to instill in my children. I feel if they learn just that one lesson their lives will be so "full".

They see the many things, events and vacations that my wife and I willingly give up so they can have the best education we can give them.

I hope someday they understand the sacrifices we made lovingly for them. And pass that gift onto their children in the future.

Thanks for the post Dig.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> I'll keep checking in.


We like it when you check in. Thanks for the update on you and Regret.


----------



## CantSitStill

bobka said:


> We like it when you check in. Thanks for the update on you and Regret.


ditto
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

_" I have been on overload with this crap for quite some time."_

I hear you Dig. 

It sounds like your in a better place though and that's good to hear. Also, good to have you post.


----------



## MattMatt

SomedayDig said:


> Just read this, EI and B1. Regret and I are so sorry to hear this. Goodness, that was difficult to read through as we both dealt with our beautiful German Shepherd years ago.
> 
> Regret and I had a nice visit at her parent's place with her family. * Nice and low key except that I had some kind of odd virus going on that seemed flu-ish. Headache, fever and body aches. I told myself that I wasn't going to be ill for our time...and it worked until the evening time, then it hit me full force. I went to bed Thursday at 9pm and got out of bed at 9:30 the next morning. It was gone.*
> 
> Friday, Regret and I had a night out while the kids stayed with her family. We were at a nice little Irish Pub having a drink. We were just enjoying things. The subject turned to her sister - who has had issues with men throughout her adult life. Regret told me how she's never compromised a bit in her marriages. It hit me like a ton of bricks...this is a synopsis of what I said to Regret:
> 
> Love isn't really about compromise. It's about sacrifice. If someone walked through that door with a gun in their hand, I wouldn't compromise with them...I would sacrifice myself to get Regret away. I would do so willingly and lovingly without pause. Love doesn't hesitate in that instant. It acts withOUT compromise. It acts with sacrifice.
> 
> That doesn't change to sh-t she did to me with her stupid f'ng affair. We'll continue to work on ourselves and our marriage. I did learn one thing last week on Tuesday during my IC and MC sessions. I have been on overload with this crap for quite some time. I need some down time. Innately, I think that's why I've been steering clear of TAM as of late. I'll keep checking in.


My poor wife had that! She was so ill! I was up at 2.30am making her pots of tea. She's better now, thank God!


----------



## Acabado

I'm sorry for your loss, EI.


----------



## calvin

EI and B1,you guys WILL make it,you got this.
To be honest I did have my doubts early on but now I have none.
You both will make and be better.
I'm seeing a success story unfold right before me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> EI and B1,you guys WILL make it,you got this.
> To be honest I did have my doubts early on but now I have none.
> You both will make and be better.
> I'm seeing a success story unfold right before me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's funny Calvin, I say the same thing when I read your posts and CSS's posts.....


----------



## CantSitStill

I think the good Lord has something to do with Calvin and me and B1 and EI and alot of others..we've all been praying our butts off and God always answers. He takes care of those who are willing to let him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

EI said:


> I can't really wrap my head around this. Teddy, our little Shorkie (Yorkie/Shih-Tzu mix) is looking for Luke. He seems kind of depressed. Teddy would never go outside without Luke, so I know that is going to be a huge chore for me. It'll be like having a puppy all over again. Teddy is 4 and Luke taught him the ropes..... like how to escape the fenced backyard.... go for a little walk and come back to the front door and bark before Mom even realizes you're gone. Luke taught Teddy how to make sure that they got treats every time the cat got a treat.
> 
> Luke taught me that, at least in his eyes, that I was worthy of unconditional love. For the price of food and shelter a dog will give you a lifetime of love and kisses (licks,) they'll lay on top of the covers so that your feet and legs don't feel a cold draft, they'll happily eat and drink after you if you leave your food, momentarily, unguarded.... no fear of germs... LOL In fact, Luke's last meal was on Friday afternoon. I was having some Thanksgiving leftovers and left my plate on the coffee table in the living room. I got up long enough to lift our s/n son into the shower for our home health aide and in less than 30 seconds Luke was off of the couch... on the coffee table and eating the remainder of my food. If I had known that was going to be his last meal I wouldn't have taken it away from him and thrown it away.
> 
> I cannot believe that he's gone. You know they won't live forever, yet, losing them is still so unfathomable. They become such a part of you. I was taking a bath after we got home last night and when I got out of the tub I found myself watching my step because Luke was always lying right in front of the bathtub on the rug.... waiting for me. Sometimes, he even managed to jump up and land right on the side of the tub where my towels were laying and his fluffy black tail would be wagging back and forth in the water. It's been over 21 years since B1 and I had to have our ****er Spaniel, Rascal, put to sleep. I'm still not over it. I imagine this is gonna take me a lifetime. I've changed my mind about burying him. I'm going to take him to our vet's office tomorrow and have him cremated and keep his remains. That gives me some measure of comfort.
> 
> I'd like to think that Luke is in Heaven with my Dad... guarding him, once again. We bought Luke in 2001 as an early X-mas present for the kids. Shih-Tzu's were supposed to be wonderful family pets who loved everyone. Not this little 2 lb. black, fur ball beast. He immediately decided that my elderly father was "his human" and those pesky little kids were merely interlopers who must be done away with. One-by-one he bit them all. We realized that Luke didn't like children. Fortunately, the kids grew up and Luke, graciously, allowed us to keep them, after all. Sometimes, when daddy was upstairs in his bedroom Luke would spend the day, on the main floor with me.... only because I fed him and took him outside. In those days, he merely tolerated me. He only had eyes for my Dad. One day I was on the couch and Luke was on my lap. Daddy woke up and started to come down the stairs. I felt Luke tense up. This little beast that had moments before been resting comfortably on my lap was going to bite me. As Daddy rounded the stairs and walked past me, Luke looked at me as if to say, "I apologize in advance, but I am going to have to bite you when the ol' man walks past... I hope you'll understand, it's my job." When Daddy died, Luke decided that I was "his human." There weren't too many problems with that unless you tried to touch me when I was holding him or he was at my feet. Many, unsuspecting, people learned not to approach me when I was at the desk in the kitchen because Luke would lay under the desk at my feet. Our son-in-law almost lost a toe that way. Everyone at our house wears shoes.... all of the time.
> 
> RIP Luke 10/28/01-11/25/12
> 
> As soon as I figure out how I will post of picture of him.
> 
> Thank you all for your support, encouragement and pm's in the last 24 hours. It has helped me more than you could possibly imagine.
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


We have the ashes of our Shepard husky "Princess" on the fireplace. She was Mrs JH dog -- unless there was a thunder storm when she wanted me. We got her from the shelter when she was five and had to put her down when she was 12 because she had pancreatitis.

Love the pictures you posted of Luke.


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> Just read this, EI and B1. Regret and I are so sorry to hear this. Goodness, that was difficult to read through as we both dealt with our beautiful German Shepherd years ago.
> 
> Regret and I had a nice visit at her parent's place with her family. Nice and low key except that I had some kind of odd virus going on that seemed flu-ish. Headache, fever and body aches. I told myself that I wasn't going to be ill for our time...and it worked until the evening time, then it hit me full force. I went to bed Thursday at 9pm and got out of bed at 9:30 the next morning. It was gone.
> 
> Friday, Regret and I had a night out while the kids stayed with her family. We were at a nice little Irish Pub having a drink. We were just enjoying things. The subject turned to her sister - who has had issues with men throughout her adult life. Regret told me how she's never compromised a bit in her marriages. It hit me like a ton of bricks...this is a synopsis of what I said to Regret:
> 
> Love isn't really about compromise. It's about sacrifice. If someone walked through that door with a gun in their hand, I wouldn't compromise with them...I would sacrifice myself to get Regret away. I would do so willingly and lovingly without pause. Love doesn't hesitate in that instant. It acts withOUT compromise. It acts with sacrifice.
> 
> That doesn't change to sh-t she did to me with her stupid f'ng affair. We'll continue to work on ourselves and our marriage. I did learn one thing last week on Tuesday during my IC and MC sessions. I have been on overload with this crap for quite some time. I need some down time. Innately, I think that's why I've been steering clear of TAM as of late. I'll keep checking in.


Hang in Dig --- day by day !!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

:iagree:


happyman64 said:


> That's funny Calvin, I say the same thing when I read your posts and CSS's posts.....


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> EI and B1,you guys WILL make it,you got this.
> To be honest I did have my doubts early on but now I have none.
> You both will make and be better.
> I'm seeing a success story unfold right before me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Calvin. I think we are seeing many success stories play out here 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> That's funny Calvin, I say the same thing when I read your posts and CSS's posts.....


Yes hm,we are almost there,so are others here.
I'm tired of the doom and gloom within myself.
I really do see us all mking it.
CSS has been a deciding factor for me.
EI and B1,will make it too,same as joe and pidge
( Joe...you have a good girl,give her a chance)
bobka,change will make it,marge will,Dig and Regret.We all will make it.
I'm cheerleading I know.I feel its possible for of us.
Anything is possible.
Hope I didnt forget someone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

There are more but it's all always a working progress
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> Yes hm,we are almost there,so are others here.
> I'm tired of the doom and gloom within myself.
> I really do see us all mking it.
> CSS has been a deciding factor for me.
> EI and B1,will make it too,same as joe and pidge
> ( Joe...you have a good girl,give her a chance)
> bobka,change will make it,marge will,Dig and Regret.We all will make it.
> I'm cheerleading I know.I feel its possible for of us.
> Anything is possible.
> Hope I didnt forget someone
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If they really _want_ to...I'm also pulling for Harken and AMU!


----------



## bfree

SomedayDig said:


> Just read this, EI and B1. Regret and I are so sorry to hear this. Goodness, that was difficult to read through as we both dealt with our beautiful German Shepherd years ago.
> 
> Regret and I had a nice visit at her parent's place with her family. Nice and low key except that I had some kind of odd virus going on that seemed flu-ish. Headache, fever and body aches. I told myself that I wasn't going to be ill for our time...and it worked until the evening time, then it hit me full force. I went to bed Thursday at 9pm and got out of bed at 9:30 the next morning. It was gone.
> 
> Friday, Regret and I had a night out while the kids stayed with her family. We were at a nice little Irish Pub having a drink. We were just enjoying things. The subject turned to her sister - who has had issues with men throughout her adult life. Regret told me how she's never compromised a bit in her marriages. It hit me like a ton of bricks...this is a synopsis of what I said to Regret:
> 
> *Love isn't really about compromise. It's about sacrifice. If someone walked through that door with a gun in their hand, I wouldn't compromise with them...I would sacrifice myself to get Regret away. I would do so willingly and lovingly without pause. Love doesn't hesitate in that instant. It acts withOUT compromise. It acts with sacrifice.*
> That doesn't change to sh-t she did to me with her stupid f'ng affair. We'll continue to work on ourselves and our marriage. I did learn one thing last week on Tuesday during my IC and MC sessions. I have been on overload with this crap for quite some time. I need some down time. Innately, I think that's why I've been steering clear of TAM as of late. I'll keep checking in.


Ironic. I posted this in another thread this morning.

_Love doesn't just happen. That is infatuation. Love is commitment. Love is a choice. Love is one sacrifice voluntarily offered after another for years on end._


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Saw this online: "I am not telling you it is going to be easy, I am telling you it is going to be worth it."


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## EI

bobka said:


> Saw this online: "I am not telling you it is going to be easy, I am telling you it is going to be worth it."


Hey bobka, that's from the movie "The Notebook." Classic chick flick. 

On another note, today has NOT been a good day. I thought I had told God that we'd had our share of those for the foreseeable future. I don't think I'm going to be okay for a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> If they really _want_ to...I'm also pulling for Harken and AMU!


Me, too, I have since day one....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Thank you for hanging by us and our thread and helping us along the way Turnera, I'll be honest. There are times I don't like or wanna hear what you have to say but I have a friend who tells it like it is and she is the one I trust to get an honest opinion from. I appreciate her over other friends that sugarcoat or tell me what they feel I wanna hear. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

oops I thought I was on my ups and downs thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Oh dear, can someone copy what I said to Turnera and send it over to my thread? I think I need a break from this place..ugg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

hi everyone:

took a couple of days away from TAM, and just learned the news about luke. so very sorry about your loss, EI. my heart is going out to you tonight!

sounds like lots of you are continuing to do well in terms of R... bobka, seems like things are really looking up at your house! it's good to see how everyone is hanging in there.

i think the last time that i wrote, i was more or less describing how keeping focused on my own life was helping me, and also how things seemed to be getting more positive with H as i did so. thanksgiving continued in that same way. we had dinner with friends and it was really a nice day, low-key and comfortable. we have sort of continued through the weekend like that.

today H went to see a football game with some friends. at lunch before he left, we spoke a little bit about R, with both of us saying hopeful things and that we felt that it was worth it to keep trying. 

H said, "i think i finally pulled my head out of my a$$."

LOL, we might really get somewhere now


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## Acabado

margrace said:


> today H went to see a football game with some friends. at lunch before he left, we spoke a little bit about R, with both of us saying hopeful things and that we felt that it was worth it to keep trying.
> H said, "i think i finally pulled my head out of my a$$."


Did you ask her about NC? It would be the firts words coming out my lips. If not I'd end the discussing and keep with the schedule.

Don't initiate. If he does ask about contact.

Just my take. Don't be cake.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> i think the last time that i wrote, i was more or less describing how keeping focused on my own life was helping me, and also how things seemed to be getting more positive with H as i did so. thanksgiving continued in that same way. we had dinner with friends and it was really a nice day, low-key and comfortable. we have sort of continued through the weekend like that.
> 
> today H went to see a football game with some friends. at lunch before he left, we spoke a little bit about R, with both of us saying hopeful things and that we felt that it was worth it to keep trying.
> 
> H said, "i think i finally pulled my head out of my a$$."
> 
> LOL, we might really get somewhere now


This sounds great! Now if he can just keep his head out of his a$$...

Seriously, it sounds like you have some hope, both for yourself and at least the possibility of R. Keep doing what you're doing, it appears to be working.

We are working diligently on our R. It's hard right now because WW is on deadline for one of her jobs, and it makes her pretty crabby. And I'm the kind of guy who thinks, "if she's crabby, it's that she's crabby at me." But I have to separate myself from her work environment and realize that I'm not the only thing going on in her life. If only I weren't so sensitive. I know, this hurts me, but it's how I am.

I pray for you guys and wish you all the best in your efforts!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> Hey bobka, that's from the movie "The Notebook." Classic chick flick.
> 
> On another note, today has NOT been a good day. I thought I had told God that we'd had our share of those for the foreseeable future. I don't think I'm going to be okay for a while.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's so hard to realize sometimes that it's only time that will heal the wounds you feel. Sometimes it's best for us to just somehow make it to tomorrow. I told B1 once, "that's why God invented tomorrow." If today's so bad, just get through it, through to the next day. Every day won't be a bad one. Lots of people are pulling and praying for you, EI. We so appreciate you here!


----------



## cpacan

Okay, I could definitely use some support here... I feel tempted :scratchhead:

My wife cheated for 9 months, I discovered it 19 months ago. I have struggled so hard to rebuild myself and be a better person, aiming at becomming the very best version of myself, and doing good. I have changed so much and getting very good at living in the present, accepting the fact that my wife is a "flawed" person (or that she is exactly the way she is and always was). I say to myself each and every day to make the best of this particular day, expressing my love and care for her with my actions, even when it is not always reciprocated, which sometimes makes it difficult.

Now what? during the last 1½ week, I have been contacted 2 times online (communities) and been hit on once IRL. I have been so tempted to see what's on the other side - even though I know it's wrong. Even though I know how much I was hurt by my wife.

I think I am strong enough to not do anything unappropriate, but why this temptation? I don't like that - or do I? My feelings are a mess today.

Had our communication skills been better, I could and would have talked with my wife about it, but this is what she most likely would say (based on experience): "Well, it's your life, do what you want, then we will see how I will deal with it.... let's not talk about it anymore, we don't wanna get into a fight about this".

Please, give me some of your strength to overcome this challenge


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

cpacan said:


> Now what? during the last 1½ week, I have been contacted 2 times online (communities) and been hit on once IRL. I have been so tempted to see what's on the other side - even though I know it's wrong. Even though I know how much I was hurt by my wife.
> 
> I think I am strong enough to not do anything unappropriate, but why this temptation? I don't like that - or do I? My feelings are a mess today.
> (


I don't know that I can offer any strength, but I can say to you: How did you feel when you found out your wife was "flawed"? Do you want to follow in her footsteps and become a flawed and more damaged person? Because you know the damage her A caused. Do you want to further spread that damage, have that to get over, have that greater obstacle in your life?

It's always your option to cheat - has been since the day you were married. How badly do you want your marriage?

I've seen you around here before - do you feel that you are in the process of reconciliation?


----------



## ChangingMe

cpacan, DON'T DO IT!!!!!!

There is no grass that's greener, I can promise you that. I get the flattery; that's been one of my big issues. It feels nice to be found attractive. But please believe me when I say that nothing good can come from even acknowledging these situations. 

I have read a bit of your story, and I feel like you give some really good advice on here. I also appreciate that you will post about being tempted. But you KNOW that "seeing what's on the other side" is not going to bring anything good to your life. And I'm not even talking about your marriage here; though it would no doubt cause even worse issues there too. 

Don't do anything that will make you lose your self-respect. I can spend the rest of my life working to make myself into a better person. I can believe that I have forgiveness from God for my actions; I think that someday too my husband may even be able to forgive me. But even still, I have to spend the rest of my life knowing that I had an affair, that I cheated on my husband, that I broke my vows and caused unbelievable damage to so many people. I have to live with that, no matter how amazing I may become in the future. 

You say you have spent the past 19 months improving yourself and becoming the best version of yourself. Do NOT trash that for something fake and temporary. You will hate yourself for it. You really will.


----------



## The Middleman

CPACAN: I've said this in a previous posting elsewhere. Revenge affairs are against conventional wisdom, but I think I'm having a change of heart lately on their value. As a general rule, 99.99% of cheaters never get back the pain they cause. The betrayeds go through life with this huge hole in their souls created by their WS. If there is an "R", the most the waywards get away with is "I'll be a good girl/good boy from now on". No pain, no hole in their souls. So while this may sound childish and most people don't want to stoop to levels of the waywards, I am beginning to feel that a revenge affair has some value, if for nothing else but to level the playing field.

So I think you at least should at least consider it *if* you can live with it, *and you think it will cause your wayward the same pain it caused you* (and give you an ego boost). There would be a lot less cheating if there were a lot more penalties for cheaters and based on what I see here, there are no penalties for waywards. Just my opinion.


----------



## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> cpacan, DON'T DO IT!!!!!!
> 
> There is no grass that's greener, I can promise you that. I get the flattery; that's been one of my big issues. It feels nice to be found attractive. But please believe me when I say that nothing good can come from even acknowledging these situations.
> 
> I have read a bit of your story, and I feel like you give some really good advice on here. I also appreciate that you will post about being tempted. But you KNOW that "seeing what's on the other side" is not going to bring anything good to your life. And I'm not even talking about your marriage here; though it would no doubt cause even worse issues there too.
> 
> Don't do anything that will make you lose your self-respect. I can spend the rest of my life working to make myself into a better person. I can believe that I have forgiveness from God for my actions; I think that someday too my husband may even be able to forgive me. But even still, I have to spend the rest of my life knowing that I had an affair, that I cheated on my husband, that I broke my vows and caused unbelievable damage to so many people. I have to live with that, no matter how amazing I may become in the future.
> 
> You say you have spent the past 19 months improving yourself and becoming the best version of yourself. Do NOT trash that for something fake and temporary. You will hate yourself for it. You really will.


This needs to be said again. I will add that what is on the other side is just what you think will be there. There is not going to be any great revelations nor are you going to experience nirvana. cpacan, you are a smart man. You know what sex is. In all honesty is sex without true feeling all that it is cracked up to be? Its shallow, hollow and truth be told its embarrassingly meaningless. After my divorce I had many women. I became one of "those guys." It doesn't compare with what I have now with my wife. Keep your self respect intact. Its just not worth it. Never is.


----------



## Acabado

SomedayDig said:


> If they really _want_ to...I'm also pulling for Harken and AMU!


Me too!
It seems they are in a better place. I sending positive vibes so they get momentum and keep the path.


----------



## B1

cpacan,

You of all people know that giving into that temptation will only bring about devestation. Yes, it must be nice to be hit on, it makes you feel good I am sure, an ego boost. Anyone would be flattered by that.

But it needs to stop there! You shouldn't even give it a second thought.

You have so much wisdom cpacan, use some of it on yourself, please don't fall for this temptation. You know it will not help resolve or fix anything.

If I may be so bold, it sounds like you two still have some communication issues? you should be able to talk to your wife about this and I would hope she would give you more than you suggested she would. Also, You are feeling vulnerable right now, ask yourself why, why are you so vulnerable now, what's changed, or perhaps, what hasn't been resolved?

A truly better stronger you would not feel this temptation so strongly, you would not even consider it. I feel there are deeper issues here. So so sorry you are going through this, I feel like your really suffering\hurting right now and I am sorry cpacan. I wish I had more to give, I really do.

Hang in there and do try to talk to your wife it's the right hting to do.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Don't do it cpacan. It will only make things worse. Do you really think a revenge affair will make you feel better?
I can almost guarantee it won't and your marriage will be in a much worse place!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

hi cpacan:

those thoughts have crossed my mind, too. when they do, they often have one or more of these ingredients boiling around in them:

1. the fact that both of us were suffering in a struggling marriage, but only you coped by sneaking off to disneyland, leaves me feeling kind of one-down. it makes me feel like my steadfastness was taken advantage of, like i was the patsy. this will even the score. 

2. we were both so unhappy -- but you don't understand that your deceitfulness completely ripped my sanity away. i still don't have it back. this will show you so that you understand.

3. you probably think that old faithful here doesn't even have the opportunity to cheat. this will show you.

4. i'm so tired. i'm tired of hanging on. i'm tired of trying not to cry, tired of of telling myself that it will get better, that it's worth it. the experience of someone new, where there isn't all that baggage and hurt to contend with, might make me feel better.

5. if i go ahead and do the same wrong thing that you did, then i don't have to bear the burden of doing the right thing and feeling that i'm not appreciated for it.

and the most shallow of them:

6. maybe i'll enjoy this. you obviously did. you gambled everything on it.

7. i want to hurt you back.

typing those was disgusting -- but i guess it just shows my humanity. like everyone else, i'm not perfect and at times i am motivated by ego, exhaustion, escapism, and desire for retribution.

i have to accept myself as that imperfect human 

but at the same time, i have aspirations and commitments that guide me, and sometimes i live up to them. those aspirations don't change with the behavior of anyone else around me. i have to separate out my feelings about what other people have done from my aspirations for my own life.

this is the very worst thing that i've ever had to live through. now i'm going to turn around and do that same thing myself?

nope.

and i'm also not going to get all righteous about making that choice. i've made plenty of bad choices myself, and have let other people down, and have needed their forgiveness, and have been grateful to receive it.

so i don't know if this qualifies as giving you strength, cp, but what i try to balance out is compassion plus humility plus trying my best -- no matter what anyone else is doing. i like being able to meet the woman in the mirror eye-to-eye at the end of the day 

xoxo mg


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> hi cpacan:
> 
> those thoughts have crossed my mind, too. when they do, they often have some of these ingredients boiling around in them:
> 
> 1. the fact that both of us were suffering in a struggling marriage, but only you coped by sneaking off to disneyland, leaves me feeling kind of one-down. it makes me feel like my steadfastness was taken advantage of, like i was the patsy. this will even the score.
> 
> 2. we were both so unhappy -- but you don't understand that your deceitfulness completely ripped my sanity away. i still don't have it back. this will show you so that you understand.
> 
> 3. you probably think that old faithful here doesn't even have the opportunity to cheat. this will show you.
> 
> 4. i'm so tired. i'm tired of hanging on. i'm tired of trying not to cry, tired of of telling myself that it will get better, that it's worth it. the experience of someone new, where there isn't all that baggage and hurt to contend with, might make me feel better.
> 
> 5. if i go ahead and do the same wrong thing that you did, then i don't have to bear the burden of doing the right thing and feeling that i'm not appreciated for it.
> 
> and the most shallow of them:
> 
> 6. maybe i'll enjoy this. you obviously did. you gambled everything on it.
> 
> 7. i want to hurt you back.
> 
> typing those was disgusting -- but i guess it just shows my humanity. like everyone else, i'm not perfect and at times i am motivated by ego, exhaustion, escapism, and desire for retribution.
> 
> i have to accept myself as that imperfect human
> 
> but at the same time, i have aspirations and commitments that guide me, and sometimes i live up to them. those aspirations don't change with the behavior of anyone else around me. i have to separate out my feelings about what other people have done from my aspirations for my own life.
> 
> this is the very worst thing that i've ever had to live through. now i'm going to turn around and do that same thing myself?
> 
> nope.
> 
> and i'm also not going to get all righteous about making that choice. i've made plenty of bad choices myself, and have let other people down, and have needed their forgiveness, and have been grateful to receive it.
> 
> so i don't know if this qualifies as giving you strength, cp, but what i try to balance out is compassion plus humility plus trying my best -- no matter what anyone else is doing. i like being able to meet the woman in the mirror eye-to-eye at the end of the day
> 
> xoxo mg


Very insightful stuff. Listen to her.


----------



## SomedayDig

cpacan...I know it hurts. I know it feels good when someone pays attention to you in a flirtatious way. Especially, when you're hurt.

But don't do it. Not just because it's wrong. But because your integrity is worth so much more than a meaningless desire or thought. 

Daily, I'm reminded of how deeply wounded we are and how difficult it is to mend and repair our souls. Each and every one of us. Betrayed and Betrayer. We want enrichment in our lives...not empty feelings. 

Love yourself more than the thought of this attention and the feelings of an ego swept up into a cloud. Cuz when you try to stand on a cloud, you're only gonna fall right back to Earth. And it's gonna hurt a sh-t ton.


----------



## joe kidd

cpacan said:


> Okay, I could definitely use some support here... I feel tempted :scratchhead:
> 
> My wife cheated for 9 months, I discovered it 19 months ago. I have struggled so hard to rebuild myself and be a better person, aiming at becomming the very best version of myself, and doing good. I have changed so much and getting very good at living in the present, accepting the fact that my wife is a "flawed" person (or that she is exactly the way she is and always was). I say to myself each and every day to make the best of this particular day, expressing my love and care for her with my actions, even when it is not always reciprocated, which sometimes makes it difficult.
> 
> Now what? during the last 1½ week, I have been contacted 2 times online (communities) and been hit on once IRL. I have been so tempted to see what's on the other side - even though I know it's wrong. Even though I know how much I was hurt by my wife.
> 
> I think I am strong enough to not do anything unappropriate, but why this temptation? I don't like that - or do I? My feelings are a mess today.
> 
> Had our communication skills been better, I could and would have talked with my wife about it, but this is what she most likely would say (based on experience): "Well, it's your life, do what you want, then we will see how I will deal with it.... let's not talk about it anymore, we don't wanna get into a fight about this".
> 
> Please, give me some of your strength to overcome this challenge


I will say this. It's not worth it. I had a revenge EA after the discovery of pidge's PA. It was done completely out of spite. 

I rubbed it in her face so she would know my pain........and she did. I watched her break. I played with her like a cat would a mouse and in the end all I did was make things far worse. 

It was the worst thing I had ever done in my life.....ever.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Don't! Your desire to level the playing field will do just that - it will lower you to the same level. And then you guys will be stuck there. You need to reach down and pull your wife back up, not jump down!

B1 posted some great stuff over the weekend, one of which was a link to some really insightful articles around switching from being a *victim* of infidelity to being a *survivor* of infidelity. 

Victims focus on how they have been wronged and dream about retribution. They obsess about how unfair it all is and that the WS should have to suffer the same pain. 

The survivor is able to push through being a victim and then focus on healing. On moving beyond the betrayal, beyond the unfairness and focus on rebuilding themselves and their relationship (if they choose to stay).

CPACAN - your are a survivor, not a victim. I see it in your posts all the time. Don't give in to your inner victim. You know where that path ultimately leads - a very dark, lonely and unhealthy place. You have worked too hard to throw it all away.

Push through this victimized feeling and focus on continuing to heal yourself, and your marriage. 

YOUR ARE A SURVIVOR, NOT A VICTIM!!!


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> I will say this. It's not worth it. I had a revenge EA after the discovery of pidge's PA. It was done completely out of spite.
> 
> I rubbed it in her face so she would know my pain........and she did. I watched her break. I played with her like a cat would a mouse and in the end all I did was make things far worse.
> 
> It was the worst thing I had ever done in my life.....ever.


Yep,I wanted CSS to see how much it hurts but I could'nt do it,I even had a chance too with a girl who's husband got busted cheating on her a second time but what good would it have done?
It would have just made things worse.
CSS has a good idea how how it hurt but she'll never really "get it" and I dont want her to anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Thank you all 

Well, actually I cried on the way home for the first time in months, so I have been in a very bad spot today. I am deeply humbled by your fast replies and encouragements, thank you so much!

I read some of your answers and thought about what this feeling of temptation is trying to tell me. In fact, I'm quite sure that I wouldn't act on these thoughts. Too much self disciplin and having experienced the outcome of being cheated on will prevent me from doing anything completely stupid (I am a smart guy you know).
What got to me was the realization that _I hate to have this feeling_ of being tempted. And I hate that I even think about it - never did that before at all.

So what does this feeling tell me? It's not that I think about having sex with another woman, my free pass took care of that, boosted ego, confidence and taught me a lot about myself. Besides; we have great sex and a lot of it. Instead I believe it's the emotional connection that I miss. I think I have managed to detach myself pretty good (I was to dependend before), combined with the fact that communication stinks, emotional needs are not being met.

I need someone to talk to about my feelings. My sessions with my psychologist end this week unless I win the lottery, and since I can't talk to my wife about this, there is going to be a void.

Why can't I talk to my wife about these things? When I got home from work today (cried on the way home, remember?), she gave me a hug and asked me if I was tired. I said "No, I've just been in a very dark spot today". She said "Don't be" and then turned away. Either she doesn't care, or she feels guilty whenever related topics show up and she shuts down.

I just wonder how the fvck I ended up this way. Anyway, thankyou very much for being there, it really helps, and I appreciate it very much.


----------



## cpacan

bobka said:


> I don't know that I can offer any strength, but I can say to you: How did you feel when you found out your wife was "flawed"? Do you want to follow in her footsteps and become a flawed and more damaged person? Because you know the damage her A caused. Do you want to further spread that damage, have that to get over, have that greater obstacle in your life?
> 
> It's always your option to cheat - has been since the day you were married. How badly do you want your marriage?
> 
> *I've seen you around here before - do you feel that you are in the process of reconciliation?*


Maybe, maybe not. I try to survive, not getting screwed and not going crazy. I actually try to work it out with my wife and most of the time we get along quite well.


----------



## cpacan

margrace said:


> hi cpacan:
> 
> those thoughts have crossed my mind, too. when they do, they often have one or more of these ingredients boiling around in them:
> 
> 1. the fact that both of us were suffering in a struggling marriage, but only you coped by sneaking off to disneyland, leaves me feeling kind of one-down. it makes me feel like my steadfastness was taken advantage of, like i was the patsy. this will even the score.
> 
> 2. we were both so unhappy -- but you don't understand that your deceitfulness completely ripped my sanity away. i still don't have it back. this will show you so that you understand.
> 
> 3. you probably think that old faithful here doesn't even have the opportunity to cheat. this will show you.
> 
> 4. i'm so tired. i'm tired of hanging on. i'm tired of trying not to cry, tired of of telling myself that it will get better, that it's worth it. the experience of someone new, where there isn't all that baggage and hurt to contend with, might make me feel better.
> 
> 5. if i go ahead and do the same wrong thing that you did, then i don't have to bear the burden of doing the right thing and feeling that i'm not appreciated for it.
> 
> and the most shallow of them:
> 
> 6. maybe i'll enjoy this. you obviously did. you gambled everything on it.
> 
> 7. i want to hurt you back.
> 
> typing those was disgusting -- but i guess it just shows my humanity. like everyone else, i'm not perfect and at times i am motivated by ego, exhaustion, escapism, and desire for retribution.
> 
> i have to accept myself as that imperfect human
> 
> but at the same time, i have aspirations and commitments that guide me, and sometimes i live up to them. those aspirations don't change with the behavior of anyone else around me. i have to separate out my feelings about what other people have done from my aspirations for my own life.
> 
> this is the very worst thing that i've ever had to live through. now i'm going to turn around and do that same thing myself?
> 
> nope.
> 
> and i'm also not going to get all righteous about making that choice. i've made plenty of bad choices myself, and have let other people down, and have needed their forgiveness, and have been grateful to receive it.
> 
> so i don't know if this qualifies as giving you strength, cp, but what i try to balance out is compassion plus humility plus trying my best -- no matter what anyone else is doing. i like being able to meet the woman in the mirror eye-to-eye at the end of the day
> 
> xoxo mg


Thank you, *Margrace*, yes to all of them - and I have forgiven myself for having these thoughts. Liked the honesty in this.

*B1: *
thanks man. Yes, there are deeper rooted issues. I also read the GoAskSusan-site you referred to. There are a lot to get from it. I think I am close to being able to forgive it all, both my wife and myself. What I think is tough, is seeing the road ahead if we can't share our most inner thoughts - the warts and stuff as Affaircare would call it.

*Never:*
Yes, I liked the victim/survivor stuff too, and I do feel like a survivor. I just need to figure what to do from here in our/my current situation.

*CM:*
I know it's not worth it, I am just a bit worried about the thoughts and feelings about it, and know that I should be too.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

cpacan said:


> Instead I believe it's the emotional connection that I miss. I think I have managed to detach myself pretty good (I was to dependend before), combined with the fact that communication stinks, emotional needs are not being met.
> 
> I need someone to talk to about my feelings. My sessions with my psychologist end this week unless I win the lottery, and since I can't talk to my wife about this, there is going to be a void.
> 
> Why can't I talk to my wife about these things? When I got home from work today (cried on the way home, remember?), she gave me a hug and asked me if I was tired. I said "No, I've just been in a very dark spot today". She said "Don't be" and then turned away. Either she doesn't care, or she feels guilty whenever related topics show up and she shuts down.


It sounds very much like you guys need to be in MC to open up the lines of communication. What's it worth? _Everything._

Can you talk a bit more about how communication between the two of you works? Maybe someone here has some good suggestions about how to get things moving in the right direction.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Hello, Reconcilers! How's everybody's progress today? 

We're doing pretty well. We'll be heading into a season now where my wife has more spare time (for about the next month now), so we will have the opportunity to spend more time together. This will be interesting, and hopefully, good.


----------



## Almostrecovered

did I miss anything in the last 50 pages?


----------



## SomedayDig

Almostrecovered said:


> did I miss anything in the last 50 pages?


Just a bunch of cheer leading unicorns....


:lol::rofl:


----------



## Almostrecovered

Anyone poop or fart?


----------



## SomedayDig

Almostrecovered said:


> Anyone poop or fart?


I did and still do. Even have a recording of one that lasted 8 seconds.

True story.

Regret is no longer in the Land of Unicorns & Rainbows and she KNOWS it!! :rofl::rofl:


----------



## SomedayDig

bobka said:


> Was that meant to be mean?


Nope...just a very old inside joke. One of those "had to be here" kind of things.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey guys, just popping in to say hello. Hope you all are doing ok. How you been feelin EI? Any better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I think I'm finally getting a better handle on my job with the kids  I am attached to all of them 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

I'm here, I'm just too sad to formulate much of a post. I had a necropsy done on Luke at our vet's office. He had kidney cancer, not very common in dogs. There was, also, the rounded part of a plastic spoon in his stomach. The vet said that it hadn't perforated his belly, wasn't embedded and the area around it wasn't infected. He didn't think it played any role in his death. He said he didn't think it caused him discomfort because the area around it wasn't red or irritated. But, how would he know? The thought that that precious baby, who gave me so much love, companionship and comfort for the last 11 years, suffered for who knows how long with part of a spoon in his belly, just devastates me even more. Although, the vet said that the kidney cancer is what killed him. 

I still have my sweet little "Teddy," the 4 y/o Shorkie.... But, he has his own special place in my heart..... he doesn't fill the void that Luke left behind. They were a team. Luke barked to tell me they were ready to come back in the house and Teddy scratched the door. I never thought I'd miss the barking.... But, it sure is quiet around here and I don't like all this damn quiet. :'(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

wow how bizarre that he had that plastic spoon in his tummy and who knows how long. I'm sorry EI : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

SomedayDig said:


> Nope...just a very old inside joke. One of those "had to be here" kind of things.


I think we all need a bit of cheer leading this week. We are all sounding a littler perplexed!

EI Hope you are ok. We lost a beloved pet about 6 months ago its a very sad time.

Ok I'm just going to post this here. It's 3 years on Friday since my dad died suddenly of a heart attack. He was only 69. I miss him with all my heart. When H and I were going through our problems I wish he'd been here, just for a hug and reassurance. He was a big man (6ft 4) but had a real soft heart. H will take me on Friday to put flowers on his grave. He loved my H like a son.

I think this time of year is difficult for a lot of people for a lot of reasons. Friday will be about my dad and remembering him. Saturday I'm going with my girlfriends for our annual Xmas shopping trip. They all loved my dad too. We'll raise a glass and remember him, the big man who had a smile and a hug for everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Those of you who pray out there, Calvin and CantSitStill can use your prayers. They're having a rough time of it.


----------



## pidge70

EI I am very sorry for your loss. If there is anything I can do, please PM me. I will no longer be posting on this thread or any other threads in the CWI forum. I am just over the whole lot of it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin and I will be fine, he's exhausted and taking a nap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> Those of you who pray out there, Calvin and CantSitStill can use your prayers. They're having a rough time of it.


Prayers coming their way..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> Prayers coming their way..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, we will be ok, I know we will...our love will conquer all that tries to hold us back. I am determined and Calvin is too, he just doesn't know that right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> I think we all need a bit of cheer leading this week. We are all sounding a littler perplexed!
> 
> EI Hope you are ok. We lost a beloved pet about 6 months ago its a very sad time.
> 
> Ok I'm just going to post this here. It's 3 years on Friday since my dad died suddenly of a heart attack. He was only 69. I miss him with all my heart. When H and I were going through our problems I wish he'd been here, just for a hug and reassurance. He was a big man (6ft 4) but had a real soft heart. H will take me on Friday to put flowers on his grave. He loved my H like a son.
> 
> I think this time of year is difficult for a lot of people for a lot of reasons. Friday will be about my dad and remembering him. Saturday I'm going with my girlfriends for our annual Xmas shopping trip. They all loved my dad too. We'll raise a glass and remember him, the big man who had a smile and a hug for everyone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So sorry for your loss. You father sounded like an amazing man. 69 is still so young that had to have been tough, and it obviously still is, Particularly when it happens close to the holidays. EI and I will be thinking about you this Friday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

EI and daisy, you are both in my thoughts this morning. 

EI, i'm thinking about that loud silence in your home without luke -- and i know that teddy is missing the other half of his team! sounds like they were adorable together.... 

and daisy, i am feeling for you in the loss of your wonderful father. it doesn't matter how old you are, does it, when you lose a beloved parent like that? the world isn't quite the same place ever again. thinking of you today and on friday!

xoxo mg


----------



## jh52

daisygirl 41 said:


> I think we all need a bit of cheer leading this week. We are all sounding a littler perplexed!
> 
> EI Hope you are ok. We lost a beloved pet about 6 months ago its a very sad time.
> 
> Ok I'm just going to post this here. It's 3 years on Friday since my dad died suddenly of a heart attack. He was only 69. I miss him with all my heart. When H and I were going through our problems I wish he'd been here, just for a hug and reassurance. He was a big man (6ft 4) but had a real soft heart. H will take me on Friday to put flowers on his grave. He loved my H like a son.
> 
> I think this time of year is difficult for a lot of people for a lot of reasons. Friday will be about my dad and remembering him. Saturday I'm going with my girlfriends for our annual Xmas shopping trip. They all loved my dad too. We'll raise a glass and remember him, the big man who had a smile and a hug for everyone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi DG41:

I am sorry about your dad -- but glad to hear that you still do those things to honor your father.

I lost my mom when I was 16 and my dad 2 months after we got married -- both were very long ago -- but not a holiday goes by that I don't wish I could give my mom one more hug and have another beer with my dad.

Hope you have a great weekend.


----------



## B1

6 months past Dday:

Overall we are doing very well. We are both working hard on our R. 


It can still be a rollercoaster, a small one, of emotions but not near what it was 3 months ago.
I still hurts, it's not as raw, but it's still there.
Mind movies are few, maybe twice a week. They are still soul crushing though.
I still cry at least once every other day, usually in the evenings when things are quiet. It's usually for a very short time. It's Like hurt has built up and I need to release it and that's how I do it.
Thoughts about the A can still consume me.
I now have moments where I realized time has passed and I had not thought about the A.
It's still a hot topic at home, but it's not all we talk about.
We have some very happy moments and overall good days now with a mix of some bad moments.
When I get in a bad place it also brings EI to that bad place too, not good for us.
My questions for details are very few now. Maybe asking one a week at most.
Very rarely will we have a whole bad day.
I still have had a moment or two where I thought, can I do this? is this really what I want? can I really stayed married to EI knowing what I know? The answer is YES.
Do I think our marriage can be better than before, absolutely, considering it was a complete disaster for years leading up to the A. Anything would be better than what we had pre-A. What we have right now is far better than before.
Our communication is nothing short of amazing. We have really learned how to talk, argue and get our point across. And we have both learned how to really listen.
MC was good, not mind boggeling great, I think we accomplished more on our own. But, it was necessary for us, especially in the begining where we needed some guidance and direction on how to handle all this.
IC had it's incredibly helpful moments and was helpful in that I knew what I was feeling was normal. There were some aha moments in IC also.

Overall, I am looking forward to a happy healthy new and improved marriage.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> 6 months past Dday:
> 
> Overall we are doing very well. We are both working hard on our R.
> 
> 
> Do I think our marriage can be better than before, absolutely, considering it was a complete disaster for years leading up to the A. Anything would be better than what we had pre-A. What we have right now is far better than before.
> 
> This is the most encouraging thing of all. This is great!
> 
> Our communication is nothing short of amazing. We have really learned how to talk, argue and get our point across. And we have both learned how to really listen.
> 
> This is an incredible improvement, no? And that you've shared that here has been very helpful to some of us.
> 
> MC was good, not mind boggeling great, I think we accomplished more on our own. But, it was necessary for us, especially in the begining where we needed some guidance and direction on how to handle all this.
> 
> I read "was" - does that mean that MC has ended for you guys? Is this a good idea at this point?
> 
> 
> Overall, I am looking forward to a happy healthy new and improved marriage.


You have taken the right steps and have made more out of this than just a crisis. You've made it a healing place where you improved your marriage, and, although there's damage, there's healing BIG TIME. 

I discovered this long ago when repairing a wooden chair, and I'm sure it's well-known: the place where you repair the chair, the glue joint, is stronger than the original build, and will never break there again. Look at your marriage that way.


----------



## cpacan

betrayed1 said:


> 6 months past Dday:
> 
> Overall we are doing very well. We are both working hard on our R.
> 
> 
> It can still be a rollercoaster, a small one, of emotions but not near what it was 3 months ago.
> I still hurts, it's not as raw, but it's still there.
> Mind movies are few, maybe twice a week. They are still soul crushing though.
> I still cry at least once every other day, usually in the evenings when things are quiet. It's usually for a very short time. It's Like hurt has built up and I need to release it and that's how I do it.
> Thoughts about the A can still consume me.
> I now have moments where I realized time has passed and I had not thought about the A.
> It's still a hot topic at home, but it's not all we talk about.
> We have some very happy moments and overall good days now with a mix of some bad moments.
> When I get in a bad place it also brings EI to that bad place too, not good for us.
> My questions for details are very few now. Maybe asking one a week at most.
> Very rarely will we have a whole bad day.
> I still have had a moment or two where I thought, can I do this? is this really what I want? can I really stayed married to EI knowing what I know? The answer is YES.
> Do I think our marriage can be better than before, absolutely, considering it was a complete disaster for years leading up to the A. Anything would be better than what we had pre-A. What we have right now is far better than before.
> Our communication is nothing short of amazing. We have really learned how to talk, argue and get our point across. And we have both learned how to really listen.
> MC was good, not mind boggeling great, I think we accomplished more on our own. But, it was necessary for us, especially in the begining where we needed some guidance and direction on how to handle all this.
> IC had it's incredibly helpful moments and was helpful in that I knew what I was feeling was normal. There were some aha moments in IC also.
> 
> Overall, I am looking forward to a happy healthy new and improved marriage.


You have truly done well. You have a strong belief that everything is going to turn out well - that's amazing and admireable.

Keep doing what you do.


----------



## Acabado

betrayed1 said:


> Overall, I am looking forward to a happy healthy new and improved marriage.


It's great. What's even better is you guys are doing it. Just think avout one, two, three years ago.
You are way ahead me, ahead most.


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> You have taken the right steps and have made more out of this than just a crisis. You've made it a healing place where you improved your marriage, and, although there's damage, there's healing BIG TIME.
> 
> I discovered this long ago when repairing a wooden chair, and I'm sure it's well-known: the place where you repair the chair, the glue joint, is stronger than the original build, and will never break there again. Look at your marriage that way.


Thanks bobka,

MC hasn't ended. Well it did for the free sessions. We blew through the free sessions and are now paying the co-pay. We have to set new sessions up which EI is handeling. 

There is definitely healing going on. But...EI is really hurting now from the loss of Luke, her dog. She's very down and I can't lie, this scares me for her and for us.


----------



## B1

Acabado said:


> It's great. What's even better is you guys are doing it. Just think avout one, two, three years ago.
> You are way ahead me, ahead most.


I know, thinking about 1,2,3 years ago = miserable, a non functioning train wreck of a marriage. no communication, no affection, no connecting, no sex, and depressed, it was awful. But here we are today, survivors of multiple disasters.


----------



## ChangingMe

betrayed1 said:


> There is definitely healing going on. But...EI is really hurting now from the loss of Luke, her dog. She's very down and I can't lie, this scares me for her and for us.


I know it's hard to watch someone we love hurt, but try not to let it scare you. EI is strong, but yes, she is hurting, and that's going to come out. I know it's hard to watch those we love cry and mourn, but it is not a bad thing. 

It seems to me that Luke dying has been a bit of a last straw on top of all the other stresses your family has going on right now. Sure, she is hurting for her beloved pet, but I think it's also letting her release some of the other pain that she's had bottled up. 

I know I can't speak for her, but as the WS, I know I have felt like I don't have a "right" to be upset or focus on my own pain (not just about the A, but about all that is going on right now with life in general). I am so focused on my husband's pain and emotions. I have cried a lot, but it is usually when I am alone at my office, and not in front of DD. I attempt to stay strong so that I can focus on him.

Perhaps EI has done this too. But a person can only stay strong for so long, and if another big blow comes, then they may not be able to hold it together. So out it comes. 

Don't let this scare you though. It's normal, and it's actually good for her. She needs to get all this out. And it doesn't mean she's weak; just like you are not weak for crying every other day. Our bodies have to get our feelings out in one way or another -"express, don't repress" and all. 

As much as you can, just be there for her. Hold her, let her cry, try to understand that Luke was much more than just a dog to her, and that this mourning is about more than just him anyway. 

Hope that helps in some way, and my prayers are with both of you.


----------



## B1

ChangingMe said:


> I know it's hard to watch someone we love hurt, but try not to let it scare you. EI is strong, but yes, she is hurting, and that's going to come out. I know it's hard to watch those we love cry and mourn, but it is not a bad thing.
> 
> It seems to me that Luke dying has been a bit of a last straw on top of all the other stresses your family has going on right now. Sure, she is hurting for her beloved pet, but I think it's also letting her release some of the other pain that she's had bottled up.
> 
> I know I can't speak for her, but as the WS, I know I have felt like I don't have a "right" to be upset or focus on my own pain (not just about the A, but about all that is going on right now with life in general). I am so focused on my husband's pain and emotions. I have cried a lot, but it is usually when I am alone at my office, and not in front of DD. I attempt to stay strong so that I can focus on him.
> 
> Perhaps EI has done this too. But a person can only stay strong for so long, and if another big blow comes, then they may not be able to hold it together. So out it comes.
> 
> Don't let this scare you though. It's normal, and it's actually good for her. She needs to get all this out. And it doesn't mean she's weak; just like you are not weak for crying every other day. Our bodies have to get our feelings out in one way or another -"express, don't repress" and all.
> 
> As much as you can, just be there for her. Hold her, let her cry, try to understand that Luke was much more than just a dog to her, and that this mourning is about more than just him anyway.
> 
> Hope that helps in some way, and my prayers are with both of you.


Thank you CM, I think your right on many levels. EI has been a mess today and when I talk with her she has said, she is so sorry she's going through this, basically, she's apologizing for grieving.

I told her I am here and not going anywhere. Today was a up day for me which really helps, I am in a much better place than normal. I am just going to be there for her now, comfort her as best I can. She's really hurting, and I do think it's mostly about Luke, but I also believe, like you, that there is other grief mixed in with this also.


----------



## CantSitStill

give her a big hug for me B1
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

This is a very long story (thread?) , so I will try to go back and get the gist of what all in happening here, but I am in need of advice about possible reconciliation. How is it possible? Some of the persons who cheated have made comparisons between the sex with the other person and their spouse. This is my situation, as well. I have a "thread", about my story, if you want, you can read it too. Please give me your advice.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> This is a very long story (thread?) , so I will try to go back and get the gist of what all in happening here, but I am in need of advice about possible reconciliation. How is it possible? Some of the persons who cheated have made comparisons between the sex with the other person and their spouse. This is my situation, as well. I have a "thread", about my story, if you want, you can read it too. Please give me your advice.


Just read your thread rookie...wow.
Me and my wife CantSitStill are on tams and nine months into R and its hard for me.
Her A did'nt go physicall but she did meet up with him a few time amd texted and talked alot.
I dont thing I could if it went PA but everyone is different.
My wife knew all along that I was a way better man than the OM ( her ex from hs).
I dont know,you said she is very remorseful,this is a tough one
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

She told you he was better in bed and bigger than you? Ouch! Even if she said it was'nt true,she was still trying to hurt you in the worst possible way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

calvin said:


> She told you he was better in bed and bigger than you? Ouch! Even if she said it was'nt true,she was still trying to hurt you in the worst possible way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has always been like this. When she is angry she says the most hurtful things she can think of.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> She has always been like this. When she is angry she says the most hurtful things she can think of.


If she has always been like this then,I dont know.
You did say she was in counseling.
What do YOU want? Forget what everyone else wants you to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Rookie4 said:


> She has always been like this. When she is angry she says the most hurtful things she can think of.


I honestly think she was simply saying these things to be mean, they are not necessarily true. Did she say them in the heat of an argument? where you coming at her in anger etc.? she very well may have said it to stop you from yelling or hurting her verbally, it's s defensive mechanism and a very good one.

The BIG question here is what do you want. Forget what she said, I'm not buying it anyway. Only you know how good or how bad your sex life was and if it was bad, than fix it, but first...what do you want?


----------



## Rookie4

betrayed1 said:


> I honestly think she was simply saying these things to be mean, they are not necessarily true. Did she say them in the heat of an argument? where you coming at her in anger etc.? she very well may have said it to stop you from yelling or hurting her verbally, it's s defensive mechanism and a very good one.
> 
> The BIG question here is what do you want. Forget what she said, I'm not buying it anyway. Only you know how good or how bad your sex life was and if it was bad, than fix it, but first...what do you want?


Both you and Calvin are asking the same question, and I really don't know the answer. I want my family back, I know that. I also know what I don't want. I don't want a cheating wife, I don't want a wife who is longing for her affair partner, or who thinks he is better in bed than I am. I don't want a wife who says hurtful things in anger , then asks to be excused later for them. I don't want a wife I cannot trust to be loyal and who's love I doubt.


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## Acabado

Rookie, people change. Trauma change us. You did change, right? She also got traumaticed, even she was the one to hit the wall on porpouse.

One thing I'd do If I was in your shoes it to sit down every family member, friend who's pressuring you, accusing you of unforgiving... and tell them to stay away. Including your children.

Another thing I'd do is yo go very slowly. With no expectations. Testing the water. I'd do it completely on the back of every one. R, if has to happen is not a family thing. It's between you and your XW. Nobody else bussiness. Just you and her. Met at a park, a restaurant... Test her remorse, her plan, the work she's doing, whether she knows how she gave permission to do that, whether she read something about infidelity. Finding God again won't foix her boundaires, her more ingrained issues.. Test whether she "gets it". Hear her. Let her know your pain and your doubts. Ask her to help with family presure. Promise nothing. Think abut how you feel.
You can then compromise to think whethe you want to meet again, just to keep talking for now. In that case you'd need to cut ties with your current GF for good. Not fair gor her (you already "used" too many women in order to regain your manhood).
Slowly test your feelings, your progress.
Then if you decide to give it a shot you lay the law, your boundaires, dealbreakers, your requirements and what you offer, your plan to rebuild this...
But this will come later.


----------



## B1

Rookie4 said:


> Both you and Calvin are asking the same question, and I really don't know the answer. I want my family back, I know that. I also know what I don't want. I don't want a cheating wife, I don't want a wife who is longing for her affair partner, or who thinks he is better in bed than I am. I don't want a wife who says hurtful things in anger , then asks to be excused later for them. I don't want a wife I cannot trust to be loyal and who's love I doubt.


I get the feeling your really hurting here and I'm so sorry. I understand you wanting your family back but it sounds like you don't want your wife back. There are a LOT of negatives with her from the way you talk.

I am going to go out on a limb and say you still love her or you wouldn't be here. we can't make this very difficult decision for you, this is your call.
and I will admit it's a tough one.

Will you be better with her or without her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Abacado makes a good argument.
B1's advice is pretty sound.
It's up to you rookie.She hurt the hell out of you.
Does she really get that? I mean really?
Only you know that.I have seen success stories on here and some are still ongoing and I feel the majority are going to make it.
Its up to you rookie,no reason to jump right in,
date her for a year,dont tell her that but if you feel any connection at all then follow your heart.
Some people do change.
Your call rookie
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

You know what? Life isn't bad at all. Came to me while watching football on the sofa with my son. I have a home , a family , money in the bank and the bills are paid. 
It's cold outside and I'm inside warm. I have a steady job and people who love me. 

So many in the world who would love to have what I have. 

I need to remember that.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> You know what? Life isn't bad at all. Came to me while watching football on the sofa with my son. I have a home , a family , money in the bank and the bills are paid.
> It's cold outside and I'm inside warm. I have a steady job and people who love me.
> 
> So many in the world who would love to have what I have.
> 
> I need to remember that.


I second that joe.
ugh,back to bed...cant sleep
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

joe kidd said:


> You know what? Life isn't bad at all. Came to me while watching football on the sofa with my son. I have a home , a family , money in the bank and the bills are paid.
> It's cold outside and I'm inside warm. I have a steady job and people who love me.
> 
> So many in the world who would love to have what I have.
> 
> I need to remember that.


Lucky you. I eat in Restaurants, have nobody but my dog to come home to, and a cheater as an ex wife. I'll trade you.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of B1
> I told her I am here and not going anywhere. Today was a up day for me which really helps, I am in a much better place than normal. I am just going to be there for her now, comfort her as best I can. She's really hurting, and I do think it's mostly about Luke, but I also believe, like you, that there is other grief mixed in with this also.


B1
You got hurt to the bone by EI and yet when she is hurting you stand up and show your true heart!

B!
Don’t look now but you are very encouraging to many. Take another look and you see real love coming from you; *not the kind on TV and in movies but the kind that takes it on the chin, suffers, and then is there for EI in one of her dark hours.*

B1
Don’t be afraid to pat yourself on the back; you have earned it!

Pat yourself on the back while you can because if you go the other way for a moment the good people on this forum will give you a kick in the cajones so that you get back to being B1!

I know you are not superman but you just showed some real strength.

Blunt


----------



## joe kidd

Rookie4 said:


> Lucky you. I eat in Restaurants, have nobody but my dog to come home to, and a cheater as an ex wife. I'll trade you.


I know man. Mine cheated on me too. Although I will say that if she would have treated me the same way you got treated in the aftermath we would not be together. 

I was trying to take stock in what I have instead of dwelling on what she did. Best of luck to you.


----------



## B1

Mr Blunt said:


> B1
> You got hurt to the bone by EI and yet when she is hurting you stand up and show your true heart!
> 
> B!
> Don’t look now but you are very encouraging to many. Take another look and you see real love coming from you; *not the kind on TV and in movies but the kind that takes it on the chin, suffers, and then is there for EI in one of her dark hours.*
> 
> B1
> Don’t be afraid to pat yourself on the back; you have earned it!
> 
> Pat yourself on the back while you can because if you go the other way for a moment the good people on this forum will give you a kick in the cajones so that you get back to being B1!
> 
> I know you are not superman but you just showed some real strength.
> 
> Blunt


Thank you Mr. Blunt. That was wonderful to read this morning. Sometimes I don't feel strong, but you're right I am strong and so are so many others on here, BS's and yes, WS's too. We all need a pat on the back sometimes and to hear GOOD JOB!

This R stuff is NOT easy, sometimes it appears that way on here, but then out of nowhere comes the dark side and what's so nice when that side comes out, there are SO many who come to the rescue here. There are others BS's and WS's who understand what the other is going through.

I will say one more thing for BS's, we ALL NEED to switch gears to feeling like a survivor and move away from feeling like a victim. I know that's what I am doing, or trying to do. Some have already done this, hey, maybe everyone has, that would be great. It's not an easy gear to change to though that's for sure.

So here is to everyone out there surviving infidelity....GOOD JOB!


----------



## B1

joe kidd said:


> I know man. Mine cheated on me too. Although I will say that if she would have treated me the same way you got treated in the aftermath we would not be together.
> 
> *I was trying to take stock in what I have instead of dwelling on what she did. Best of luck to you*.


Very well said..

Joe, you have really turned a corner my friend, I know it was a while back but I just wanted to say congrats, good for you, and Pidge.

And you are right many people would love to have what we have right now. A warm home, and food on the table.


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> Very well said..
> 
> Joe, you have really turned a corner my friend, I know it was a while back but I just wanted to say congrats, good for you, and Pidge.
> 
> And you are right many people would love to have what we have right now. A warm home, and food on the table.


Yeah, it takes a while for things to sink into my stubborn Irish head.


----------



## EI

Thinking of you today, *daisygirl*, as you remember your father. Having lost my own father 8 years ago, I can certainly empathize with the huge void that is left for a woman when her "Daddy," her first love, passes away. I think it is, particularly, difficult when these losses occur near the holidays. My mother passed away 13 years ago a few weeks before Thanksgiving. She is always on my mind.... but Thanksgiving is the hardest without her.

Thank you all for sending such lovely words of encouragement, condolences, virtual hugs, pm's, etc., this week as I grieve the loss of Luke.  It's been very difficult.... I was very busy the first part of the week due to scheduled obligations that I couldn't avoid. Yesterday was the first day in a very long time that I didn't have to play "beat the clock." I stayed in my pajamas (which, I think, were the clothes I wore the day before... ) didn't leave the house and laid on the couch for several hours yesterday.... haven't done that in a loooooong time. This is a loss that has been very painful to bear. For some of us, our pets are more than possessions... they are beloved companions. Luke was my most faithful friend. He didn't care what I looked like, what number popped up on the display when I stood on the scales, he never asked to borrow money or my car keys, he never wrecked my car, he never brought home a bad report card, and his love and devotion, to me, were unconditional. Most people have very few family/friends in their life who give so much and ask for so little in return. I think that is why grieving the loss of a pet is, for some, even more difficult than losing extended family or friends. My X-Mas present to myself this year will be making a donation to the Kentucky Humane Society.... something that the children and I have done many times in years past. Only, this year, it will be in Luke's memory. We will deliver it ourselves and then take the time to pet and cuddle each dog and cat who are waiting for their forever homes. Again, this is something that we have done many times over the years. Don't worry, Honey, I will not be bringing another dog home...... not yet, anyway!  

B1 had a difficult day, yesterday, after having been a tower of strength for me since Saturday. Last evening got off to a rough start when he got home from work. As many of you know, TAM, in itself can be quite a trigger.... one of the reasons that I am not staying on it every free moment of the day, anymore, myself. B1 and I had some things to discuss and, as is most often the case, after talking through some difficult and painful issues, I think we came out even stronger than before. Infidelity is a horrible thing. There really is nothing good that ever comes from it for anyone. It saddens me when I read people saying that the WS "gets away" with it if the marriage is reconciled. I can tell you that as a former WS, that could not be further from the truth. Maybe *some* do get away with it.... but, I kind of doubt it. I think that no matter the outcome, whether it be reconciliation, divorce, spouse never finding out about and the marriage continuing as if the infidelity never occurred... at some point the WS has to come to terms with the choices that they made; the lies, the deception, the infidelity itself. For some it comes sooner and for some later, but it comes... I can't imagine how it couldn't.

I think that having to live with yourself, knowing what you've done, to those whom you love, is a lot more challenging, painful and difficult than some BS's might imagine that it would be. The truth is.... no matter how hard I try, I will never really, truly understand the depth of the pain that B1 endures because of my infidelity. He did not betray me with another woman. I wish that I could bear his pain, or at least share it with him, but I can't. It doesn't work that way. Another truth is that he will never truly understand the long-term effects that I endured from the years of emotional and physical rejection from him, or how the loneliness, hopelessness and feelings of despair left me in a very vulnerable state. What he and I can do is love another, forgive one another, and show mercy and compassion to one another. It has been such a journey.... these last 6 months. One that I wouldn't wish upon anyone. Yet, when I think of the depleted shell that our marriage had become, I can't help but to feel some excitement, hope and joy when I look towards our future together..... a hope and excitement that I have not felt in many, many years. I really love my husband.... I loved him, once before, with a fierce passion. I'd like to say that love conquers all.... I'm not sure that I believe that anymore. I do believe that love can die. Love should never be taken for granted. Humans are fallible. I believe every single one of us have a breaking point. If you live your entire life and never reach yours.... think yourself very fortunate. It doesn't mean that it wasn't there. It means that you were blessed enough to have escaped whatever hardship or burden it would take to reach yours. Some break easier than others. I don't think that everyone who cheats did so because they reached their breaking point. I think that some people are genuinely selfish, cruel, narcissistic or mentally ill. But, I don't believe that everyone who has ever been unfaithful is inherently defined by those characteristics. I can't believe that.... When I look in the mirror I see a very flawed person. I see a woman who hurt her husband, her children, her extended family, her friends and herself. I never imagined that I would one day become an unfaithful wife, a liar, and a deceiver. Not ever.... until I did. It was a genuinely selfish and cruel thing to do. I'm actually a person who cares deeply about others, I want to make a difference, I want to do good things. I wasn't selfish and cruel before and I pray that I never will be that way again.

Today, I am hopeful that B1 and I will have a future filled with love, joy, happiness, compassion and forgiveness.... I don't think reconciliation is guaranteed, but I am hopeful that it is possible. It's like I, often, tell B1. I can do just about anything on just the tiniest bit of hope..... when you take my hope away, I crumble.

Take care,
~EI


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> Very well said..
> 
> Joe, you have really turned a corner my friend, I know it was a while back but I just wanted to say congrats, good for you, and Pidge.
> 
> And you are right many people would love to have what we have right now. A warm home, and food on the table.


Home. That's the word that gets me. It was a house before. Yeah , we lived together in it...but it wasn't a home.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Thank you Mr. Blunt. That was wonderful to read this morning.
> Sometimes I don't feel strong, but your right I am strong and so are so many others on here, BS's and yes, WS's too.
> We all need a pat on the back sometimes and to hear GOOD JOB!
> 
> This R stuff is NOT easy, sometimes it appears that way on here, but then out of know where comes the dark side and what's so nice when that side comes out, there are SO many who come to the rescue here. There are others BS's and WS's who understand what the other is going through.
> 
> I will say one more thing for BS's, we ALL NEED to switch gears to feeling like a survivor and move away from feeling like a victim. I know that's what I am doing, or trying to do. Some have already done this, hey, maybe everyone has, that would be great. It's not an easy gear to change to though that's for sure.
> 
> So here is to everyone out there surviving infidelity....GOOD JOB!


Definition of VICTIM:

a (1): one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions <a victim of cancer> <a victim of the auto crash> <a murder victim> (2): one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment <a frequent victim of political attacks> 

Definition of SURVIVE:

1: to remain alive after the death of <he is survived by his wife> 

2: to continue to exist or live after <survived the earthquake> 

3: to continue to function or prosper _*despite*_ : withstand <they survived many hardships>


----------



## ChangingMe

Beautifully put, EI. You so often have a way of writing things that I struggle to put into words. 

Daisygirl, I too am thinking of you today. I am sorry for the loss of your father, and I hope you find some peace today and have a wonderful time tomorrow with your friends.


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## jh52

Sometimes hope is all a person has --- remove hope .......




you fill in the rest as each one of us is unique and in a unique situation.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Bobka
> Definition of SURVIVE:
> 
> 1: to remain alive after the death of <he is survived by his wife>
> 
> 2: to continue to exist or live after <survived the earthquake>
> 
> 3: to continue to function or prosper despite : withstand <they survived many hardships>


Good one Bobka!

I would like to add a few for thought

SURVIVE

When you realize that the other person is very important but not your whole life, soul, and spirit

When you are working a plan for betterment and it is working

When you love more than you hate

When you have other interests that counter the pain even if just temporary

When you start believing that you can gain in other areas to offset loss

*When you cry more out of being touched by compassion than crying about despair and loss*

*When you run to help the one that hurt you like B1*


----------



## ChangingMe

Mr Blunt said:


> *When you cry more out of being touched by compassion than crying about despair and loss*
> 
> [/COLOR]


Man, this line really resonated with me. I have cried a lot about the pain I've caused and experienced, but nothing makes me weep like when DD is compassionate towards me. The mere thought is making me tear up right now. To be on the receiving end of such love and tenderness when I know it is the last thing I deserve is unbelievable. He could give me no greater gift.


----------



## SomedayDig

Hmmmm....Hope. What a great word and more importantly what a great feeling.

A couple weeks ago while Regret and I were in MC, the MC asked if she could do a word cloud with us. If you don't know what that is, it's basically taking words that describe something and depending upon how important the word, the size of the word is displayed.

Love was pretty big in the word cloud. Hope...was bigger.

I truly believe for a lot of us working on reconciliation, that is the case. Hope needs to be larger than love at this stage of the game. At least it is for us.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> Hmmmm....Hope. What a great word and more importantly what a great feeling.
> 
> A couple weeks ago while Regret and I were in MC, the MC asked if she could do a word cloud with us. If you don't know what that is, it's basically taking words that describe something and depending upon how important the word, the size of the word is displayed.
> 
> Love was pretty big in the word cloud. Hope...was bigger.
> 
> I truly believe for a lot of us working on reconciliation, that is the case. Hope needs to be larger than love at this stage of the game. At least it is for us.


Those two words, "love" and "hope" - tough ones, as they are both things you cannot see and touch. Some people are so pragmatic, they won't acknowledge the importance of them. And I've taken a lot of heat from people who say things like "hope is not a strategy," as though everything had to have a strategy attached to it.

I have a great deal of hope for my marriage (and for the other people here, too), and feel it's what keeps me going sometimes. If I cannot hope, what else can I do?

If your hope is bigger than your love right now, that's okay in my book. Hope drives action, too. Just keep doing the right things, and be true to yourself, and to your marriage.


----------



## jh52

IMO -- very well said Dig and Bobka.


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## calvin

You can have the best thought out plans ever but I feel without hope they wont do you much good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

joe kidd said:


> I know man. Mine cheated on me too. Although I will say that if she would have treated me the same way you got treated in the aftermath we would not be together.
> 
> I was trying to take stock in what I have instead of dwelling on what she did. Best of luck to you.


Thanks, Joe, I appreciate it. I was just feeling sorry for myself.


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Hmmmm....Hope. What a great word and more importantly what a great feeling.
> 
> A couple weeks ago while Regret and I were in MC, the MC asked if she could do a word cloud with us. If you don't know what that is, it's basically taking words that describe something and depending upon how important the word, the size of the word is displayed.
> 
> Love was pretty big in the word cloud. Hope...was bigger.
> 
> I truly believe for a lot of us working on reconciliation, that is the case. Hope needs to be larger than love at this stage of the game. At least it is for us.


I wish I could have hope. What if you are afraid to hope? Every time I talk to people, family, friends, they tell me how much my ex has learned, how completly she loves me, how much she realizes her horrible choices, how she is now a "paragon of virtue" etc. I wish I knew some way to jump-start a little hope.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Rookie4 said:


> I wish I could have hope. What if you are afraid to hope? Every time I talk to people, family, friends, they tell me how much my ex has learned, how completly she loves me, how much she realizes her horrible choices, how she is now a "paragon of virtue" etc. I wish I knew some way to jump-start a little hope.


Try praying some. Even if you're not a spiritual person, meditating on these things peacefully can help. If you_are _a man of faith, then you know that God hears you when you call.

A lot of people here pray. It may be a big or small part of what they do do get peace and foster some hope, but it helps them, and cannot possibly hurt.


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> I wish I could have hope. What if you are afraid to hope? Every time I talk to people, family, friends, they tell me how much my ex has learned, how completly she loves me, how much she realizes her horrible choices, how she is now a "paragon of virtue" etc. I wish I knew some way to jump-start a little hope.


Hope starts from within, man. I'm not a preacher, but I am a reverend. I don't preach one God or another. I simply try to answer questions that people ask me in that regard.

Some of us can sit quietly and speak to God openly. While some of us don't have an exact belief in a specific God yet acknowledge that there is something greater out there. Also, some of us don't follow any kind of belief system and confide in themselves and their own mettle. 

Whichever way is yours - own it. Make sure to take the time YOU need to discover your own Hope. It's there, you just need to be open to it.


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## B1

Rookie4 said:


> I wish I could have hope. What if you are afraid to hope? Every time I talk to people, family, friends, they tell me how much my ex has learned, how completly she loves me, how much she realizes her horrible choices, how she is now a "paragon of virtue" etc. I wish I knew some way to jump-start a little hope.


hopelessness is a sad place to be, I have been there. It's also part of depression. If you are depressed perhaps you should see a doctor and see about some meds to help you out of this dark hole.

I am not afraid to admit to being on them and they keep me from that dark hopeless place. I don't plan on being on them forever though. But the right meds can get you out of that dark place and get you back into the world again.

Don't settle for hopelessness rookie, fight for yourself, you deserve it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hi guys, hope everyone has a good weekend, yes this reconcilliation has it's really hard days and you never know when it will be a bad day of triggering and talking your mind into saying "I can't do this anymore" for the BS. But remember those moments will pass. I just wish there was an easy way for the WS to turn the BS mind back so they don't dwell on all the bad horribleness of what happened. I hurt when he hurts. I can't believe I did this to him. Never gonna give up hope tho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Hi guys, hope everyone has a good weekend, yes this reconcilliation has it's really hard days and you never know when it will be a bad day of triggering and talking your mind into saying "I can't do this anymore" for the BS. But remember those moments will pass. I just wish there was an easy way for the WS to turn the BS mind back so they don't dwell on all the bad horribleness of what happened. I hurt when he hurts. I can't believe I did this to him. Never gonna give up hope tho.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you.Love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Thank you.Love you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Man. I have asked you not to tell me that on the open forum....If you love me just PM me. :rofl:


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## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> Man. I have asked you not to tell me that on the open forum....If you love me just PM me. :rofl:


hahahahaha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

joe kidd said:


> Man. I have asked you not to tell me that on the open forum....If you love me just PM me. :rofl:


Okay, now THAT was funny. First time I've laughed out loud in over a week..... or who knows when. I needed that! LOL 

Thanks Joe! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

CantSitStill said:


> Hi guys, hope everyone has a good weekend, yes this reconcilliation has it's really hard days and you never know when it will be a bad day of triggering and talking your mind into saying "I can't do this anymore" for the BS. But remember those moments will pass. I just wish there was an easy way for the WS to turn the BS mind back so they don't dwell on all the bad horribleness of what happened. I hurt when he hurts. I can't believe I did this to him. Never gonna give up hope tho.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would be so easy to let go of the past if I had a crystal ball that could tell if my wife is sincere or just settles until the kids grow up. 

Or maybe a magic wand that would make her nose grow each time she fails to be honest with me.

I think that is the absolute worst for me; fear of wasting my time at this age.


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> It would be so easy to let go of the past if I had a crystal ball that could tell if my wife is sincere or just settles until the kids grow up.
> 
> Or maybe a magic wand that would make her nose grow each time she fails to be honest with me.
> 
> I think that is the absolute worst for me; fear of wasting my time at this age.


How old are your children, cpacan? 

Annnnnnnd, are you a CPA? I'm trying to figure out the significance of your username.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

So, I checked out Shirley Glass's book Not "Just Friends", and my wife almost immediately whisked it away and started reading it! I think she's really starting to get it, and wants very much to affair-proof our marriage. She really got in touch with what an EA is, and is really acting all-in. I'm very, uh, hopeful for this thing to work, and I think this was a big step for her.


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## calvin

bobka said:


> So, I checked out Shirley Glass's book Not "Just Friends", and my wife almost immediately whisked it away and started reading it! I think she's really starting to get it, and wants very much to affair-proof our marriage. She really got in touch with what an EA is, and is really acting all-in. I'm very, uh, hopeful for this thing to work, and I think this was a big step for her.


Hope it all works out for you bobka
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

bobka said:


> So, I checked out Shirley Glass's book Not "Just Friends", and my wife almost immediately whisked it away and started reading it! I think she's really starting to get it, and wants very much to affair-proof our marriage. She really got in touch with what an EA is, and is really acting all-in. I'm very, uh, hopeful for this thing to work, and I think this was a big step for her.


So glad to hear it!! I'm sending positive vibes you she she read it with an open mind and reach some clarity.

Hang tough!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Hope it all works out for you bobka
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me, too. Thanks, Cal. 

I'm having a rough time on one level - ever since WW's trip, I seem to have no real motivation. I feel damaged and bruised, and have a hard time just doing regular things sometimes, you know, grocery shopping, chores, anything other than getting out of bed, which I pretty much have to force.

I know that part of this is my depression, and yes, this trip threw me into a depression for sure, but I'm used to the effects of that, and know the difference between my "normal" depression and what's happening now. It's not right, and, although at times I feel I'm pulling out of it, I truly feel that something has changed, and it's not for the good.

I find myself apologizing to my friends for not really being "all there", not participating appropriately in my friendships, and I think I'm wearing some people out. 

Will I continue feeling this damaged, or is this going to go away? I know some of us read the thread about PTSD, but I don't want to go looking for something else to be wrong. Maybe I just need someone to tell me that time will heal this, but how much time can I stand to waste while my life is passing me by?


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## calvin

It comes back slowly,I used to be a real go getter,projects around the house and stuff like that.
There's things that I could be doing but I just dont feel like it anymore.
I'm sure I'll be up to tackling things soon,I have to.
Want to try and sell and move this spring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> How old are your children, cpacan?
> 
> Annnnnnnd, are you a CPA? I'm trying to figure out the significance of your username.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kids are 11 and 8. Nope, not a CPA
Two different versions of my initials. I had absolutely no creative thoughts when I posted the first time, it might be different today


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## Rookie4

I would really like the WS's to tell me about the sexual comparisons made by them , between the Husband/wife and the OM/OW. This is one of the crucial issues I am facing in trying to decide to R or not. My wife (ex) says she said those things to be hurtful, because she was hurting, and because she was angry with the way our marriage was failing. I do know she has anger issues, but why say that kind of thing if it isn't true? She could have insulted me in some other way. Did you really feel that your affair partner was a better lover? and why? Soory for interupting, but this is hugely important to me.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> It comes back slowly,I used to be a real go getter,projects around the house and stuff like that.
> There's things that I could be doing but I just dont feel like it anymore.
> I'm sure I'll be up to tackling things soon,I have to.
> Want to try and sell and move this spring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the feedback, Cal.


----------



## calvin

No answer there,my wife's never went physical tho she did meet him in public a few times.
Just her telling me that he treated her better ( cheap compiments and a boat load of lies) and her telling him she loved him did a lot of damage to me.
I'm sorry Rookie,what she said to you was the worst.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> I would really like the WS's to tell me about the sexual comparisons made by them , between the Husband/wife and the OM/OW. This is one of the crucial issues I am facing in trying to decide to R or not. My wife (ex) says she said those things to be hurtful, because she was hurting, and because she was angry with the way our marriage was failing. I do know she has anger issues, but why say that kind of thing if it isn't true? She could have insulted me in some other way. Did you really feel that your affair partner was a better lover? and why? Soory for interupting, but this is hugely important to me.


Rookie, I'm gonna give you the same advice I was given by our MC the other day. See, I was asking about him and what she enjoyed doing with him cuz I want to be able to give her everything she needs. The MC simply said, well Dig, instead of asking it that way, why not just ask her yourself and cut this third party xOM out of the picture.

So simple, yet just what I needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> Me, too. Thanks, Cal.
> 
> I'm having a rough time on one level - ever since WW's trip, I seem to have no real motivation. I feel damaged and bruised, and have a hard time just doing regular things sometimes, you know, grocery shopping, chores, anything other than getting out of bed, which I pretty much have to force.
> 
> I know that part of this is my depression, and yes, this trip threw me into a depression for sure, but I'm used to the effects of that, and know the difference between my "normal" depression and what's happening now. It's not right, and, although at times I feel I'm pulling out of it, I truly feel that something has changed, and it's not for the good.
> 
> I find myself apologizing to my friends for not really being "all there", not participating appropriately in my friendships, and I think I'm wearing some people out.
> 
> Will I continue feeling this damaged, or is this going to go away? I know some of us read the thread about PTSD, but I don't want to go looking for something else to be wrong. Maybe I just need someone to tell me that time will heal this, but how much time can I stand to waste while my life is passing me by?


All pretty normal bobka, I didn't get anything done the first several months, and I am just now starting to break out of that mode. I still lack the motivation I once had but it is coming back. I just got out today and did some X-mas shopping while EI watched the grand kid. 

It went well with only one trigger, had to pass up where the xOM works, and I spent maybe 5-10 minutes thinking about the A, it really hurt briefly thinking about EI coming that way to meet him for lunch sometimes, then it passed. 

I'm not sure what exactly happens to a BS's motivation after an A, but it seems to be a common theme for us to lack it. 

So, don't get to down on yourself bobka, I think it will improve with time.


----------



## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> I would really like the WS's to tell me about the sexual comparisons made by them , between the Husband/wife and the OM/OW. This is one of the crucial issues I am facing in trying to decide to R or not. My wife (ex) says she said those things to be hurtful, because she was hurting, and because she was angry with the way our marriage was failing. I do know she has anger issues, but why say that kind of thing if it isn't true? She could have insulted me in some other way. Did you really feel that your affair partner was a better lover? and why? Soory for interupting, but this is hugely important to me.


Has any of your other partners complained? If not, I suggest you concentrate on your own confidence. If your ex doesn't like your performance, that would be her loss. But it would surprise me if that was true, she probably said it just to hurt you at the time.

I'll admit that it was hard enough for me in the beginning even though my wife swore to me it had nothing to do with performance, can't help wonder sometimes still, but it doesn't haunt me anymore at all.


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Rookie, I'm gonna give you the same advice I was given by our MC the other day. See, I was asking about him and what she enjoyed doing with him cuz I want to be able to give her everything she needs. The MC simply said, well Dig, instead of asking it that way, why not just ask her yourself and cut this third party xOM out of the picture.
> 
> So simple, yet just what I needed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand what you're saying , Somedaydig, but even if it were true, and I will admit that since then , my other partners have raved about my performance, (blushing, LOL), I would still need to know which statement was the truth. The statement she made then, or the denials she has made since. I have to know whether or not she is trustworthy or if she is just saying those things to make me feel better or lessen her guilt feelings, for those cruel words.


----------



## SomedayDig

I fully understand Rookie. I know you need and deserve your answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> I understand what you're saying , Somedaydig, but even if it were true, and I will admit that since then , my other partners have raved about my performance, (blushing, LOL), I would still need to know which statement was the truth. The statement she made then, or the denials she has made since. I have to know whether or not she is trustworthy or if she is just saying those things to make me feel better or lessen her guilt feelings, for those cruel words.


I know it sucks, but you will never really know that for sure, you can't truly know. I'm sorry, but you got to let the thought go, it doesn't do you any good. Just my opinion and own experience.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie, if your XW tells you OM was actually as lousy lover, very selfish, never made her Os... would you believe her?

OM was new, different, convenient, he persued her, she felt empowered and excited after 25 years with the same man, she felt like a sex godness becasuse she still had it with a younger OM, becasue the taboo factor, she felt like an irresistible MILF, a cougar, she was cheered by her toxic friends, so HS-ish... she was punishing you, she was in a fantasy bubble... all this colored whatever "really was the truth". Truth is elusive. Truth is what ever we perceive at the moment. 
I'm sure once she calmed down adter the more immediate aftermath and faced the mirror her perceptions (the "truth") changed becasue all the extras who surrounded the "truth" lost the power, the vision of the whole thing is now more grey and mediocrity seems more close to the truth because it's how she then perceived it. Sex is in the brain. Truth was false. Maybe she can even acknowledge why she believed it back then, maybe now she feels sick in the stomach if a mind movie pops up or she's forced to remember it. Your emotional state change your perceptions (=truth). Who knows, so...
Talk to her. Ask her.


I believe there's no way a couple of 35 years having sex don't know each other... the right places, the body language... better than a new partner. No way. I'm with Dig in this. Focus in your performance. I bet you learned a few tricks since then.
I'm going probably to infuriate you even more (I believe I'm doing it since you came to TAM) but I'm in a different place than nad maybe my POV can help you (discard if not). If my wife learned some new tricks from OM (which didn't happened) I'd welcome them. Geez I thank all her parters before me.

Best wishes.


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## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> I know it sucks, but you will never really know that for sure, you can't truly know. I'm sorry, but you got to let the thought go, it doesn't do you any good. Just my opinion and own experience.


Believe me, Cpacan, I would if I could. These so-called mind movies, give me no pleasure whatsoever.


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## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Believe me, Cpacan, I would if I could. These so-called mind movies, give me no pleasure whatsoever.


Thats terrible,I just could'nt R,I could'nt.
Braver souls than me have though and I do respect them.
Its very possible for a WS to realise what they did and come around and make thing right also.
I wont say I could'nt,I dont know.Everyone's situation is different.
I can say I would'nt want a life without CSS,that I know is true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> Rookie, if your XW tells you OM was actually as lousy lover, very selfish, never made her Os... would you believe her?
> 
> OM was new, different, convenient, he persued her, she felt empowered and excited after 25 years with the same man, she felt like a sex godness becasuse she still had it with a younger OM, becasue the taboo factor, she felt like an irresistible MILF, a cougar, she was cheered by her toxic friends, so HS-ish... she was punishing you, she was in a fantasy bubble... all this colored whatever "really was the truth". Truth is elusive. Truth is what ever we perceive at the moment.
> I'm sure once she calmed down adter the more immediate aftermath and faced the mirror her perceptions (the "truth") changed becasue all the extras who surrounded the "truth" lost the power, the vision of the whole thing is now more grey and mediocrity seems more close to the truth because it's how she then perceived it. Sex is in the brain. Truth was false. Maybe she can even acknowledge why she believed it back then, maybe now she feels sick in the stomach if a mind movie pops up or she's forced to remember it. Your emotional state change your perceptions (=truth). Who knows, so...
> Talk to her. Ask her.
> 
> 
> I believe there's no way a couple of 35 years having sex don't know each other... the right places, the body language... better than a new partner. No way. I'm with Dig in this. Focus in your performance. I bet you learned a few tricks since then.
> I'm going probably to infuriate you even more (I believe I'm doing it since you came to TAM) but I'm in a different place than nad maybe my POV can help you (discard if not). If my wife learned some new tricks from OM (which didn't happened) I'd welcome them. Geez I thank all her parters before me.
> 
> Best wishes.


Acabado, sometimes I disagree with you but sometimes you definitely strike a nerve. She once tried to tell me how she was feeling during the affair. She said a lot of the same things, you just mentioned. That it made her feel younger, more desirable, more alive, and she mentioned being a "cougar", as well. So I asked her how she felt about it now, and she said it made her sad. I thought when she said that, that I would explode. I almost spat in her face , I was so angry. I couldn't look at her and walked away. I thought that she was sad that the affair was over and that she missed/loved Brad. She called me several times the next few weeks asking to explain, but I wouldn't talk to her. She finally sent me a letter saying that I misunderstood, and didn't let her finish. she said that thinking about the affair made her feel sad, ashamed, worthless and evil, and she didn't think she could ever feel good about herself again. About Brad, she said that now all she felt for him was contempt and dislike. No desire, no love, no longing, nothing. I didn't believe her and not sure if I do, even now.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> She finally sent me a letter saying that I misunderstood, and didn't let her finish. she said that thinking about the affair made her feel sad, ashamed, worthless and evil, and she didn't think she could ever feel good about herself again. About Brad, she said that now all she felt for him was contempt and dislike. No desire, no love, no longing, nothing. I didn't believe her and not sure if I do, even now.


Rookie, I've read some of your posts and I am so sorry you are going through this. I don't think any of us can tell you what to do, though in your 2nd post on this forum, you say that you do not want to reconcile. So either that is true, and then you have your answer, or you are unsure as to whether you want to, which may be more the case, since you continue to post. I agree with others that the choice is yours alone -not your kids' or your parents' or your ex-wife's. 

If you are unsure, then my advice would be to not rush into anything. You are already divorced, so that is done. You don't have to rush to get back together. Take your time and see if she continues to fight for you. Make her prove that she is sorry and is willing to do what it takes to earn back your trust. Take the time to determine if you actually want to be with her. She has been really hurtful with her comments, and those are going to be difficult to overcome. I didn't say anything like that to my BH, and even still, he struggles with comparisons. 

As for the part I quoted above, I can say that this is how I feel 100%. I have no positive thoughts for the OM. When he crosses my mind, all I feel is disgust and anger and stupidity. I don't miss him, I don't want him, I don't spend time on him. Any thoughts of sex or anything intimate with him literally nauseate me, and sadly, I would bet all my money that my husband spends way more time thinking about him than I do. 

Now I can't say that your wife is being truthful, but I can say it is entirely possible for a person to feel that way after an affair.


----------



## Rookie4

Thank you so much, Changing me. I really want to know what the WS opinions are, but few of them want to share. I don't know, maybe they just want to forget it, and my situation brings up unpleasant memories. One thing is for sure, she has always been consistant about it. She has never evaded responsibility for her actions and has never said anything good about what happened.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Thank you so much, Changing me. I really want to know what the WS opinions are, but few of them want to share. I don't know, maybe they just want to forget it, and my situation brings up unpleasant memories. One thing is for sure, she has always been consistant about it. She has never evaded responsibility for her actions and has never said anything good about what happened.


CSS will chime in later Rookie,we're setting up our tree.
She might have some insight later.
I can tell you that some of the cruel things that she said she admitts she didnt know what to say.
She knew she was wrong and was trying to deflect what I had to say to her.
Does that make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> I also know what I don't want. I don't want a cheating wife, I don't want a wife who is longing for her affair partner, or who thinks he is better in bed than I am. I don't want a wife who says hurtful things in anger , then asks to be excused later for them. I don't want a wife I cannot trust to be loyal and who's love I doubt.


These are all very fair and reasonable expectations to have if you truly attempt to R. There needs to be very clear conditions if you decide to give her another chance. I want to reemphasize though that I don't think it has to be an all or nothing thing on your part -you don't have to decide today that you are going to remarry this woman. You can tell her that you will VERY cautiously start getting to know her again, but that there are a whole lot of things that have to change in order for there to be a possibility of a future for the two of you. Write your expectations down & give them to her. 

There seem to be a lot of things that will be on her -obviously refraining from affairs & figuring out what within her allowed her to get to that point (still something I am exploring nearly 6 months into IC), as well as learning healthier ways to argue, etc. There will be things you two will need to work through together -sexual issues, probably healthy arguing falls here too. And there are things that, sadly, you will have to work on individually -self-confidence, sexual insecurities, and so forth. Your XW can try to help you with these things, but I know as a fWW myself, that I have done so much damage here, and it is beyond my power to totally fix my husband in these areas. He has to work through some stuff on his own, which isn't fair at all. Though I do my best to let him know that I desire only him and that he is great at satisfying me. I still don't think he fully believes me though. 

I saw in your post that you and she were going out tonight. I hope all goes well, and you get some clarity about her, one way or the other.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> Thank you so much, Changing me. I really want to know what the WS opinions are, but few of them want to share. I don't know, maybe they just want to forget it, and my situation brings up unpleasant memories. One thing is for sure, she has always been consistant about it. She has never evaded responsibility for her actions and has never said anything good about what happened.


I am happy to be of help if I can be. I read a lot on this forum, but don't post a ton. This site is rough on WS, which is of course understandable. I have learned a lot through it though, and I feel like it has been helpful to me and my husband (DevistatedDad, if you want to read about the hell I've put him through). I also truly am trying to work on 'changing me,' and I do believe change is possible. 

Her taking accountability is a good thing. It sounds like there is much more she needs to do, but it is a start.


----------



## joe kidd

ChangingMe said:


> I am happy to be of help if I can be. I read a lot on this forum, but don't post a ton. This site is rough on WS, which is of course understandable. I have learned a lot through it though, and I feel like it has been helpful to me and my husband (DevistatedDad, if you want to read about the hell I've put him through). I also truly am trying to work on 'changing me,' and I do believe change is possible.
> 
> Her taking accountability is a good thing. It sounds like there is much more she needs to do, but it is a start.


CM I think this site is hard on a unrepentant WS but ones who show true remorse are cut some slack.


----------



## ChangingMe

joe kidd said:


> CM I think this site is hard on a unrepentant WS but ones who show true remorse are cut some slack.


That's true, joe, at least by most people. I'm not complaining; just trying to explain why rookie may not be getting many responses from WS.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> CM I think this site is hard on a unrepentant WS but ones who show true remorse are cut some slack.


Ditto that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

ChangingMe said:


> That's true, joe, at least by most people. I'm not complaining; just trying to explain why rookie may not be getting many responses from WS.


Got ya.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of ChangingMe
> If you are unsure, then my advice would be to not rush into anything. You are already divorced, so that is done. You don't have to rush to get back together. Take your time and see if she continues to fight for you. Make her prove that she is sorry and is willing to do what it takes to earn back your trust. Take the time to determine if you actually want to be with her.


*For his circumstances that was GREAT advice!

Time tested actions can be a great revealer of truth*


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## Rookie4

Our date went real well, and I am beginning to think she might actually be one of the remorseful WS's. Tonight she gave me a LOT to think about.


----------



## B1

Rookie4 said:


> Our date went real well, and I am beginning to think she might actually be one of the remorseful WS's. Tonight she gave me a LOT to think about.


That's great rookie, but take it slow, there is no race to get back together. 

BTW:
I had to get over some very hurtful words too, EI said sex with the xOM was "like nothing I have ever experienced" she said this in her original thread and I found it then by accident, I know that pain all to well.

Now at the time though for my wife it was like nothing she had ever experienced, because our sex life was in the tank an had been for over 10 years. We would easily go for 6 months without sex and honestly I could have gone the entire time without it. I had zero drive due to low testosterone and depression.

Now that I have my mojo back, I get T-injections now, and my depression is better, our sex life is through the roof, better than it has ever been in our 28 year marriage. EI says it far surpasses what she had with xOM for many reasons, and yes I have got those reasons. 
The only thing that we don't have that she had with xOM is free time, time with no one home. 

In the end rookie, she is choosing you, he obviously wasn't that great. I believe there is always that rush at first, when it's all new. It's exciting and thrilling. But when the ride is over, well, it's over and in the end it's NOT the sex that drives the relationship now is it.

It's...
love, commitment, companionship, a hug, a kiss, holding hands, holding the other while they cry, being emotionally there for your spouse, cuddling on the couch, knowing you are loved no matter what, knowing you always have a friend close by, saying I love you, feeling loved, being cherished, being honored, being adored, and being there until death do you part.

Those words btw have been long forgotten, I had to actually go back to her thread to find out what it was she said because I had forgotten.


----------



## ChangingMe

betrayed1 said:


> In the end rookie, she is choosing you, he obviously wasn't that great. I believe there is always that rush at first, when it's all new. It's exciting and thrilling. But when the ride is over, well, it's over and in the end it's NOT the sex that drives the relationship now is it.
> 
> It's...
> love, commitment, companionship, a hug, a kiss, holding hands, holding the other while they cry, being emotionally there for your spouse, cuddling on the couch, knowing you are loved no matter what, knowing you always have a friend close by, saying I love you, feeling loved, being cherished, being honored, being adored, and being there until death do you part.


SO TRUE. This is worth repeating. Though I will say that sex is an important part too, but that sex with love and commitment behind it is way better than sex without. 

And without being too graphic, I will say that the best sex I have ever had has been post DDay. We have had some rough times when he has mind movies or whatever, but we have also had times where we have connected in ways that I feel like we never had before, and it has been mind-blowing. Way beyond better than anything with OM, and even better than times in the past with DD. And I will swear to you that I NEVER think of OM when I am making love to DD. I am so focused on him and just the fact that I am still lucky enough to be with him that he is literally all I am thinking about. Ok, him and the fact that I am feeling pretty damn good at the moment.


----------



## Acabado

I want to apologize not only to Rookie4 but to all of you, WSs and specially BSs for my latest post here. I lacked empathy, it was dismissive towards your feelings, insensitive to your struggles and offensive. I know the way I see this particular subject is not the same as many, most of you. I know better. I have no excuse, shame on me.
While I considered simply editing, deleting it I believe it would be coward and ill mannered. I’m more than willing to do it so please just request it by PM if you wish.
I’m so sorry friends.


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## Omegaa

ChangingMe said:


> SO TRUE. This is worth repeating. Though I will say that sex is an important part too, but that sex with love and commitment behind it is way better than sex without.


My serial adulterer hubbie didn't seem to think so - he had found his affair gave him a huge kick or a state of "high". 

Some day, I would like to meet an honorable man who thinks what you said.


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## Omegaa

To add...reconciliation is a two way process. 
In my h's case, he may require a long-term paid psychotherapy and I won't be doing this for him.


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Our date went real well, and I am beginning to think she might actually be one of the remorseful WS's. Tonight she gave me a LOT to think about.


Rookie

I am glad you are thinking. It is so much better than reacting.

Think about what you posted below:



> No desire, no love, no longing, nothing. I didn't believe her and not sure if I do, even now.


Rookie

That is what some of us describe as a remorseful wayward spouse....

After your date are you starting to believe her?

Some spouses even the waywards realize the grass is not greener on the other side nor was the Affair. When they realize it was all fantasy and truly recognize what they lost faithful spouse, sense of family, loss of honor it can truly bring a sense of clarity.

I think she realizes not only her poor choices but the devastation she wrought by her horrible choices.

Not all waywards recognize this or even admit to it........
HM64


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## EI

Acabado said:


> I want to apologize not only to Rookie4 but to all of you, WSs and specially BSs for my latest post here. I lacked empathy, it was dismissive towards your feelings, insensitive to your struggles and offensive. I know the way I see this particular subject is not the same as many, most of you. I know better. I have no excuse, shame on me.
> While I considered simply editing, deleting it I believe it would be coward and ill mannered. I’m more than willing to do it so please just request it by PM if you wish.
> I’m so sorry friends.


Acabado, B1 and I don't respond to every single comment on this thread. For one thing, we don't have the time and for another, I usually write a small novella every time I do post, therefore, I usually wait until time and energy permits or until I think I have something of value to add. One of things I absolutely LOVE about this thread is that while we, occasionally, get "new" additions to the Reconciliation thread who then become regular contributors, like CM and the most recent one being Rookie4, we have our veteran contributors like you, Calvin, CSS, jh52, Dig, JoeKidd, bobka, margrace, cpacan, daisygirl, and several others, etc....... who have become part of the foundation of this thread and have helped make it what it is. 

B1 and I have often discussed the value of your contributions to this thread. You are often so spot on when you analyze the mind of a WS who is still in the fog that it is hard to believe that you were the BS and not the WS. At times, your words have helped me make sense of my own jumbled thoughts throughout this process. There have been things you've written that I didn't fully understand at the time, only to eventually reach the stage you were referring to in my own personal journey of reconciliation and redemption, and then in hindsight, I would realize what you meant. I, often, go back and read older posts on my original thread and B1's and am amazed at the wisdom in many of your posts. You are 3 years into your reconciliation...... so you are much further removed from some of the raw intensity that some of the BS's here might still be feeling. But, rather than appearing to lack empathy, I think it might, in fact, be comforting for BS's and WS's to see that reconciliation is possible and that the intensity of the pain does eventually lessen. I know that as a former WS, your love for your wife, 3 years after the discovery of her infidelity, and in spite of realizing that she was/is a flawed human being, not a perfect vision to be put on a pedestal, gives me such hope for my future with B1.

I love all of your contributions to this thread and others. I feel like this thread belongs to all of us.... Not B1, not myself.... but all of us. If someone posts and is in immediate need of advice, direction, encouragement, etc., I count on any or all of us to respond.

Your comments were not offensive to B1 or to myself....... I don't think any apology is necessary, but your concern is simply one more indicator of the sensitive and wise person you are. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Thanks, EI.


----------



## calvin

Very well put E1.
Without some of the support here I think I'd lose it.I just wish.....but I cant wish,I have to work.
You guys did attract a lot of BS's and WS's here.
Like moths to a flame.
I hope we all make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Changing me wrote it perfectly as far as how the WS should be if she is totally serious about remorse. I know I haven't said much but alot of the things I wanna say have already been said. Yeah I was in my idiot fog omg kept telling Calvin.."well at least he's nice to me" when I wanted the OM. I said many things to make Calvin the A-hole when all that time he was doing everything to win my heart back. All I know is..as it was said earlier..I am repulsed when I think of the OM now..do not have any care for him in the least bit and Calvin does think about him way more than I do. I don't totally blame the OM because it was my fault but I do feel he ruined my marriage, he could have done the right thing and walked away. He even had the nerve to coninuously call Calvin when it was clearly over. He 10 months later finally quit calling a month ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

btw B1 thank you for talking to me in PM about my ADD problem, I took your advice and now I see what you mean about the meds..so far they are working 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I do blame CSS but I also put a crap load of blame on him,they never had sex as a hs couple,he pushed hard,real hard and wouldnt stop.
I pushed back harder,it wasnt a damn game to me,it was too him.
I'm just tired,worn out.
CSS was something she had not been before,I think...I know she understands it all.
Its messed up,scarey.
If she would have winded up with him,he would have picked her apart.
CSS is a special and fragile thing that needs to be taken care of.
She looks to things that will make her feel happy or better.When sometimes its been right under her nose but she didnt see it.
Guess we're all guilty of that though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Omegaa

Sorry folks. what does WSs stand for?

And also, what does BSs stand for, please?

And CSs? 

Thanks.


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## Rookie4

Hello, all. When I posted, asking for the opinions of WS's, I wasn't taking into consideration how it might effect some of the BS's, triggering them, etc. So I would like to change that if I could. If any WS's want to give me their $.02. please PM me instead of posting on open forum. Thanks a heap.


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## Omegaa

happyman64 said:


> Some spouses even the waywards realize the grass is not greener on the other side nor was the Affair. When they realize it was all fantasy and truly recognize what they lost faithful spouse, sense of family, loss of honor it can truly bring a sense of clarity.
> 
> I think she realizes not only her poor choices but the devastation she wrought by her horrible choices.
> 
> Not all waywards recognize this or even admit to it........


Mine certainly insisted that he never regretted as to what he did or he also said that he was never ashamed. 

However, he really hated me bring up the subject after it was found out. If he wasn't ashamed then why would he care?


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## CantSitStill

I am CSS lol and WS is wayward spouse and BS is the betrayed spouse..Calvin is my husband
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Omegaa said:


> Sorry folks. what does WSs stand for?
> 
> And also, what does BSs stand for, please?
> 
> And CSs?
> 
> Thanks.


Omegaa, welcome to the Reconciliation thread. I'm so sorry that you have found yourself dealing with such an unrepentant WS. I guess that is probably the only thing worse than dealing with an unfaithful spouse.... one who is unfaithful and who shows no remorse. Again, I'm so sorry. Let me give you a few of the most common abbreviations used on TAM so that you can better understand what you're reading here.

WS - Wayward Spouse
WW - Wayward Wife
WH - Wayward Husband
BS - Betrayed Spouse
LS - Loyal Spouse
DS - Disloyal Spouse
STBEW - Soon to be Ex- Wife
STBEH - Soon to be Ex-Husband
R - Reconcile 
AP - Affair Partner
OM - Other Man
OW - Other Woman
xOM - ex-Other Man
xOW - ex-Other Woman

Anyone else have something that I've missed?

Omegaa, this thread is a kinder, gentler version than most of the threads on the "Coping with Infidelity Forum"... (CWI) The "regulars" on this thread" try to offer support, encouragement and whatever collective wisdom we have (or think we have) with all of those who post here. We also receive that same support, encouragement and wisdom back. We look after one another. Please feel free to share your story with us anytime you would like to.

~ EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

EI said:


> Omegaa, welcome to the Reconciliation thread. I'm so sorry that you have found yourself dealing with such an unrepentant WS. I guess that is probably the only thing worse than dealing with an unfaithful spouse.... one who is unfaithful and who shows no remorse. Again, I'm so sorry. Let me give you a few of the most common abbreviations used on TAM so that you can better understand what you're reading here.
> 
> WS - Wayward Spouse
> WW - Wayward Wife
> WH - Wayward Husband
> BS - Betrayed Spouse
> LS - Loyal Spouse
> DS - Disloyal Spouse
> STBEW - Soon to be Ex- Wife
> STBEH - Soon to be Ex-Husband
> R - Reconcile
> AP - Affair Partner
> OM - Other Man
> OW - Other Woman
> xOM - ex-Other Man
> xOW - ex-Other Woman
> 
> Anyone else have something that I've missed?


Hmmm... that would be D for divorce


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## EI

Anyone who believes that infidelity is the greatest threat to modern marriage has obviously NOT tried to put up a 9' Christmas tree with their 15 month old grandson using them as a human racetrack for their cars.

With that having been said, how great is Christmas going to be this year with said grandson running around filled with excitment and waiting to be spoiled??? He was too little to enjoy Christmas last year. This year he loves the lights, the sounds, the music, everything.

Christmas could have looked a lot different for my family this year had B1 decided not to forgive me. Instead, he has chosen to pour his heart and soul into loving me and reconciling our marriage, though I hurt him as deeply as a wife can hurt her husband. That's more than enough for me for X-Mas this year and every year, hereafter! :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

cpacan said:


> Hmmm... that would be D for divorce



Oh boo, that one slipped my mind.... must not be on my radar! Sorry!    LOL


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## B1

CantSitStill said:


> btw B1 thank you for talking to me in PM about my ADD problem, I took your advice and now I see what you mean about the meds..so far they are working
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


(
That's great to hear CSS. Glad they are working for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

betrayed1 said:


> (
> That's great to hear CSS. Glad they are working for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Here we go...my 1000th post here at TAM and I deleted a response on another thread so that I could put it here. That is how much this thread means to me, personally.

Regret and I have been fighting the good fight on this reconciliation for a long time. Maybe not relatively to some here, but to us it is a long while.

It has been almost 9 months since I first discovered Regret's affair after she came home from being with the xOM. She went up to bed before me, just like usual and I needed to check my emails. Her laptop was open and mine was turned off. Long story short - I found the hotel receipt from that evening in her emails.

I never in a million years thought that she could or would do something like this. Especially knowing my history with infidelity. My biological father left us when I was 3 years old to be with his OW and despite living less than 15 miles away, I have still to this day never seen him since. My step father who Ma married a few years later was a complete douche. Real bad guy who had multiple affairs during their 15 year marriage and who psychologically abused me on a daily basis. Things like "You'll never amount to anything", "Go hide behind Mommy's apron strings"...sh-t like that. Then my first wife who I met when I was 17 and got married years later...well, she cheated on me with multiple guys and I tried to reconcile. Yeah, *I* tried, cuz one night when she wanted to visit me at my apartment to talk - we had separated to "work" on ourselves, thanks to the idiotic MC's we shared (who totally took her side). Anyway, that night she never showed, I called around looking for her. This was before cell phones were the norm in '97 so I drove to the bar where she usually hung out. Yep. Came in through the kitchen cuz I knew the owners and saw her with the OM sitting at the bar...arm draped over him and heads touching as they talked.

Yeah. My life f'ng sucks when it comes to adultery/infidelity. I'll be 45 years old in a couple months. It's pretty f'ng hard to swallow that ever since I was a child until even today that my life has been totally and completely f'd up by someone wanting to have a stupid f'ng orgasm. Pretty god damned sad if you ask me.

Yep...I still deal with the hurt and anger from it. It gets to me from time to time. Lately, I've dealt a lot better with it. I've been able to look at things and see how broken Regret was. I just wish...I really just wish that knowing all that she knew about my past that she could have chosen a different path.

This sh-t sucks moose balls. Pretty f'ng bad. I hate it.

But I love her. She has done a lot to work and fix what she did wrong. She is a heavy lifter in this reconciliation and unlike my ex-wife, she means it when she says she's committed to me now.

Sorry to ramble. I wanted my 1000th post to be something kinda cool. Though it seems it turned out to be a pity party on my behalf. Don't pity me, though. Just learn from what I'm going through and for God's sake, please...PLEASE...don't trickle truth your BS's. Take care of them. Know how fragile this chance to reconcile really is.


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## CantSitStill

oh my God Dig!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

dig, I am so glad you two are doing well and r is working out for you. You sure have had it rough when it comes to infidelity. But like you said this time around things are different and regret is committed to you and your r. She is lucky you stuck around after what you have been through. You really love her and she obviously loves you.

I'm honored that you chose to make your thousandth post here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Dig, I loooooove that you made your 1000th post here on the Reconciliation thread. You know that you and Regret were such a tremendous source of support to B1 and me, as I think we were to you guys when we were both very early in our reconciliations. It was such a comfort to know that in the midst of all of the pain, insecurity, uncertainty and fear...... mixed with what was just the tiniest bit of HOPE, at the time, that there was someone else who completely understood what we were going through, did not judge us or project their own issues onto us and genuinely wished us well. 

Today, I think you and Regret and B1 and I all even more reason to HOPE than we did just a few short months ago. We all exchanged our share of pm's with encouragement and support, along with a few frantic ones on some of the very difficult days. You and B1 remained steadfast in your beliefs that you were fighting a battle that was worth the fight when the TAM naysayers tried so hard to shoot you, both, down. 

I loathe the reason that you, Regret and several others, here, have come to be such a significant and valuable part of our lives, yet I am so very honored to be able to call you our friends. I know that Regret no longer posts, but tell her that I think of her often and I am so glad that the two of you are doing so well. You both are very special to us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

We are a battered old group huh? I will be putting Christmas lights on the house for the 1st time in 2 yrs. 

Heart wasn't in it then......it's weird a silly little thing like wanting to do that this year will seem like progress, but I'll take it.


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## ChangingMe

Congrats, Dig, that's a milestone. I too am sorry for the role infidelity has played in your life, but I think it really shows your strength that today you are standing where you are, with your wife by your side.


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## EI

joe kidd said:


> We are a battered old group huh? I will be putting Christmas lights on the house for the 1st time in 2 yrs.
> 
> Heart wasn't in it then......it's weird a silly little thing like wanting to do that this year will seem like progress, but I'll take it.


I know exactly what you mean, joe, we are really decking the halls around here, ourselves, this year. Gratitude is such a blessing and I have been feeling very blessed these last couple of days. We have our ups and downs.... just like everyone else.... But, we work through the downs much quicker, more effectively and in a much healthier way than we ever have before. B1 really loves me and I really love him and just knowing that gives me such an overwhelming feeling of peace, contentment and genuine happiness. I haven't had this much hope in more years than I'd care to count.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

I want to tell all of you how much being on TAM and listening to your stories has helped me.
Somedaydig, you and Joe and B1 and Calvin and Acabado, the Bs's that chose from the first to try to reconcile, I swear I don't know how you did it. I truly don't. When I found out for certain that my ex slept with Brad, I would listen to nobody. For months, people would try to get me to slow down, and give reconciliation a try, but My anger and shame and dissillusionment was so deep , that I wanted her out of my life , forever. Even my lawyer said that he had not seen a woman so torn up and full of guilt as my ex was. But I wasn't having any of it. I wanted to punish her and it was all I could do not to do Brad some serious bodily harm. How you guys did it, is beyond me, but I admire you for it. It took a lot of maturity.


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> I know exactly what you mean, joe, we are really decking the halls around here, ourselves, this year. Gratitude is such a blessing and I have been feeling very blessed these last couple of days. We have our ups and downs.... just like everyone else.... But, we work through the downs much quicker, more effectively and in a much healthier way than we ever have before. B1 really loves me and I really love him and just knowing that gives me such an overwhelming feeling of peace, contentment and genuine happiness. I haven't had this much hope in more years than I'd care to count.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know, EI, when I told my daughter that we were all going to have Christmas together again like we used to, she came over and sat on my lap and cried and said Thank you Daddy. Imagine that.


----------



## joe kidd

Rookie4 said:


> I want to tell all of you how much being on TAM and listening to your stories has helped me.
> Somedaydig, you and Joe and B1 and Calvin and Acabado, the Bs's that chose from the first to try to reconcile, I swear I don't know how you did it. I truly don't. When I found out for certain that my ex slept with Brad, I would listen to nobody. For months, people would try to get me to slow down, and give reconciliation a try, but My anger and shame and dissillusionment was so deep , that I wanted her out of my life , forever. Even my lawyer said that he had not seen a woman so torn up and full of guilt as my ex was. But I wasn't having any of it. I wanted to punish her and it was all I could do not to do Brad some serious bodily harm. How you guys did it, is beyond me, but I admire you for it. It took a lot of maturity.


She fought hard for it. I was gone, on my way. She took a lot of verbal and emotional abuse from me the 1st year. 

I figured anyone who would stay through that did indeed love me. Took a long time to believe her when she said it.


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## Rookie4

I hear that, Joe. It's been two years and I am just now willing to give her a hearing. I could not have done it before.


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## Omegaa

EI said:


> Omegaa, welcome to the Reconciliation thread. I'm so sorry that you have found yourself dealing with such an unrepentant WS. Please feel free to share your story with us anytime you would like to.
> 
> ~ EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you so much for your help and warm welcome. Really appreciated at this time. Just a quick reply as Monday had started and there are some pressing matters at the moment..xxx


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## margrace

hi everyone:

happy as always to connect with the strength and commitment of all of you on this thread. welcome, omegaa.

things are pretty much status quo here. actually a little better than that, maybe.... but i find that the minute i feel some optimism about R, i immediately feel nervous so i pull back from it.

think i told you about the conversation in which, after a good thanksgiving together, H told me that he had finally pulled his head out of his a$$. since then, things have continued to feel better and appear better, although in my heart, the jury is still out for me.

my H has never been the introspective type before, during, or after the A. he would happily go *forever* without talking about feelings, etc. especially with regard to difficult issues. his whole family is the same way. this has been a obstacle for R as you can imagine.

i am trying so hard to balance out some things that sometimes seem to contradict each other (and they definitely go against my nature):

* there are some really important things that we have only touched on so far. like, 1) what transparency will mean to H going forward and what he is willing to do in service of that and 2) he needs to understand himself better and how he went down this path in the first place and 3) he needs to try and communicate a bit better about all this 

* you all have told me several times to take it one day at a time. you're right. VERY hard for me. i'm always looking way down the road.

* you have all reminded me that patience is a big requirement for this. you're right. VERY VERY hard for me. i want to fix it, solve it, rescue it, have the talk, whatever, and i want to do it today 

* i *don't* want to be the one always saying "can we talk?" and i have stopped doing that (mostly) BUT waiting for him to bring things up = we will be in the nursing home together still not having this conversation.

* i also know that i can fall into the trap of waiting for the perfect words or the perfect communication from him. back when he was willing to go to MC, the counselor once said to me, "did you hear what he just said?" so i know that sometimes he IS trying to convey certain things and my expectations/wishes get in the way of hearing them.

(btw, TAM sometimes makes this one worse. have you ever had that experience? you read the things on other threads where the BSs say, well, if he doesn't do X, Y, and Z, then you need to put his stuff out in the front yard. and X, Y, and Z *do* indeed sound like things that i would appreciate! my H doesn't ever say those things in that exact way, unfortunately....)

i was thinking of all of you WSs on this thread very appreciatively this week. having a H who struggles to communicate makes your sharing so important for me.... because when you share, i think to myself, hmmm, maybe that's what he is dealing with.

like you have talked about why it's hard to pour out all the details of the A, you've talked about the idea of "getting away with it" and how that doesn't always fit the situation, and you've talked about your pain and your breaking points pre-A. all of us understand that these perspectives are not excuses -- but they are pieces of the puzzle that i would NEVER have if it were not for you. 

do i know for a certainly that he is not doing anything sneaky right now? no, i don't. I think he isn't. he doesn't lock his phone, etc., but we know that there are 100s of ways to sneak around on the down-low and i have been wrong before (needless to say).

xoxo mg


----------



## happyman64

SomedayDig said:


> Here we go...my 1000th post here at TAM and I deleted a response on another thread so that I could put it here. That is how much this thread means to me, personally.
> 
> Regret and I have been fighting the good fight on this reconciliation for a long time. Maybe not relatively to some here, but to us it is a long while.
> 
> It has been almost 9 months since I first discovered Regret's affair after she came home from being with the xOM. She went up to bed before me, just like usual and I needed to check my emails. Her laptop was open and mine was turned off. Long story short - I found the hotel receipt from that evening in her emails.
> 
> I never in a million years thought that she could or would do something like this. Especially knowing my history with infidelity. My biological father left us when I was 3 years old to be with his OW and despite living less than 15 miles away, I have still to this day never seen him since. My step father who Ma married a few years later was a complete douche. Real bad guy who had multiple affairs during their 15 year marriage and who psychologically abused me on a daily basis. Things like "You'll never amount to anything", "Go hide behind Mommy's apron strings"...sh-t like that. Then my first wife who I met when I was 17 and got married years later...well, she cheated on me with multiple guys and I tried to reconcile. Yeah, *I* tried, cuz one night when she wanted to visit me at my apartment to talk - we had separated to "work" on ourselves, thanks to the idiotic MC's we shared (who totally took her side). Anyway, that night she never showed, I called around looking for her. This was before cell phones were the norm in '97 so I drove to the bar where she usually hung out. Yep. Came in through the kitchen cuz I knew the owners and saw her with the OM sitting at the bar...arm draped over him and heads touching as they talked.
> 
> Yeah. My life f'ng sucks when it comes to adultery/infidelity. I'll be 45 years old in a couple months. It's pretty f'ng hard to swallow that ever since I was a child until even today that my life has been totally and completely f'd up by someone wanting to have a stupid f'ng orgasm. Pretty god damned sad if you ask me.
> 
> Yep...I still deal with the hurt and anger from it. It gets to me from time to time. Lately, I've dealt a lot better with it. I've been able to look at things and see how broken Regret was. I just wish...I really just wish that knowing all that she knew about my past that she could have chosen a different path.
> 
> This sh-t sucks moose balls. Pretty f'ng bad. I hate it.
> 
> But I love her. She has done a lot to work and fix what she did wrong. She is a heavy lifter in this reconciliation and unlike my ex-wife, she means it when she says she's committed to me now.
> 
> Sorry to ramble. I wanted my 1000th post to be something kinda cool. Though it seems it turned out to be a pity party on my behalf. Don't pity me, though. Just learn from what I'm going through and for God's sake, please...PLEASE...don't trickle truth your BS's. Take care of them. Know how fragile this chance to reconcile really is.


Dig

I didn't want to just "like" your post.

Your post is very cool. Why? Because it not only shows how much you have over come in your life. But also shows Regret just how much you truly love her!

Keep fighting the good fight....

HM64


----------



## ChangingMe

Margrace, thanks for the update. I have been thinking about you. I'm glad that things are looking more up than down, even if they are moving slowly. And though it's hard, slow is not necessarily a bad thing -change takes time if it's going to last. Just think about losing weight or any significant lifestyle change. You really have to take it one day at a time for it to stick. It's easy to make big changes for a short period of time, but for them to really last and be a part of who you are is going to be a slow-going process. I have spent nearly 6 months working on some aspects of my personality that have been ingrained in me for over 30 years. I've made some progress, but I am far from completely where I want to be. I am learning to be patient with myself, and thankfully, DD is having patience with me as well, though I know it's a struggle for him at times. 

You say your husband has a hard time talking, and I think that is true for a lot of men. Have y'all tried writing to each other? Over the summer, when we were just a month or two past DDay, DD could not talk to me or even stand to be around me most of the time. During that time, he would email me about what he was thinking and feeling and ask me questions that way. It gave him distance and time to think through what he wanted to say, and it did the same for me when I responded. This site too has been great for this as well -I've learned a lot about what's going through DD's head by reading his posts, since sometimes he is able to write things down that he isn't willing or able to verbalize to me.

Also, we still have our best and most honest talks at night in our hot tub, and I attribute that mostly to it being in the dark. I think making it where we aren't staring at each other takes some of the pressure off both of us, and we feel like we have a little anonymity in the dark, if that makes any sense. Not sure if sitting outside at night is an option for you (it's going to be 80 here today, so we still have that luxury), but perhaps dimming the lights, using candlelight or a fire, would offer a similar type of scenario. 

Continue to take care of yourself, Margrace, and I hope things continue to progress like you want and deserve them to.


----------



## ChangingMe

About to head to IC.  I love that I have it on Monday mornings; it really gets my week off to a good start. 

I feel like I have turned a corner in counseling. For a really long time, I spent so much time processing the ups and downs of the week and my fears of DD leaving me and filing for divorce. I am now very intent on using the session to work on me and figure me out, learning how to change my behavior and interactions so that I can become the person I want to be. And not just the wife and mom I want to be, though those are both extremely important, but also who I want to be as a person. 

It's a little daunting, because it requires really looking at the selfish, base qualities that I have and really owning them in order to get rid of them. I have always tried to be a good girl (affair notwithstanding, of course), but I have some ugly qualities that I've always tried to bury and ignore. I'm ready to dig them up and replace them with something better. Easier said than done, but definitely worth making the effort!


----------



## Omegaa

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> happy as always to connect with the strength and commitment of all of you on this thread. welcome, omegaa.
> 
> 
> my H has never been the introspective type before, during, or after the A. he would happily go *forever* without talking about feelings, etc. especially with regard to difficult issues. his whole family is the same way. this has been a obstacle for R as you can imagine.
> 
> i am trying so hard to balance out some things that sometimes seem to contradict each other (and they definitely go against my nature):
> 
> 
> xoxo mg


Hi Margrace

Your situation sounds almost IDENTICAL to mine. Thank you for your welcome..x

I did this over the past seven years. Not sure how many years you have been going through with yours? Along the way, I lost my dignity, respect to myself and my own happiness.

I have come to arrive that I don't think this problem in our marriage will ever be solved. 

I don't want to be looking over my shoulder for another ten years as a very miserable, stressed out woman.

We tried various avenues to "fix" things usually initiated by me over the years. I think it was more or less a lip service on his part. He was seeing other women whilst I thought we were going forward together by participating in these things. Quiet, uncommunicative type is such a hard work. You are constantly left wondering what he is up to. Isn't that so wearing for you?

It had been to myself. I became ill. Quiet type can hide things very well. Does he ever lie to you? Mine was always so evasive and usually his lies tend to be used as he does not want you to know the truth.

Take care and thank you for your great thread!!


----------



## B1

Good to hear from you Margrace, I was wondering how you were doing just yesterday.


Regarding this:
_(btw, TAM sometimes makes this one worse. have you ever had that experience? you read the things on other threads where the BSs say, well, if he doesn't do X, Y, and Z, then you need to put his stuff out in the front yard. and X, Y, and Z do indeed sound like things that i would appreciate! my H doesn't ever say those things in that exact way, unfortunately....)_


X,Y and Z are variable per situation. Where one couple may hit X in 1 month another may take 3 months and some may hit Y in 3 months while others take 6. That's where patience plays a roll and trusting your instincts.

There were a couple times I read X,Y and Z thinking, Uh-O, EI doesn't fit that mold. But in time she usually did hit the X and the Y and the Z. Still every situation is different and how people respond are vastly different. You can't always go by what TAM and other sites say, I know we didn't. 

Sometimes you have to feel your way through this mess, trusting your gut and instincts and what you do know about your spouse. Like your spouse, he's not a big talker, so it may take a little longer to hear what you need to hear, or perhaps you have to really listen to hear what he's saying or what he's not saying to get your answer.

I wish it was easier for you, you sure are giving it 110% margrace.

For us, all we had was time so that's one reason I stuck it out waiting and hoping for EI to reach some milestones. From what I was reading on TAM it should take your WS to reach x in a few weeks, well it took EI a few months. I was patient because I did see progress and I also knew what I had put her through and she had to learn to believe in and trust me too. You see, that part is NEVER in the equation here, for me it was. 

This wasn't ALL about me, it was about EI also, and bad choices made by the both of us. This slowed progress down some compared to what TAM and other sites said. EI was feeling me out too, seeing if this new me would stick around. It took her a little while to believe in me and to know my love was real. (Remember, she was convinced I didn't love her)

So, don't get to hung up on timing, it really boils down to how much time YOU are willing to put into this and how patient and I guess how tolerant you are. All this is, of course, assuming he is keeping with NC.


----------



## CantSitStill

Just wanna say just like EI I didn't think Calvin really loved me anymore also pre-EA and when he made changes I kept thinking "he's gonna go back to his old ways" but I was soo wrong. A year later and he is still doing a great job of being the husband that's much more loving and patient. We all get scared and get doubts the BS does because they are afraid the WS is gonna go back to cheating. Also all marriages have their different problems to fix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Yep,I was the only one that needed to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Yep,I was the only one that needed to change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now, Calvin...


----------



## SomedayDig

happyman64 said:


> Dig
> 
> I didn't want to just "like" your post.
> 
> Your post is very cool. Why? Because it not only shows how much you have over come in your life. But also shows Regret just how much you truly love her!
> 
> Keep fighting the good fight....
> 
> HM64


Thanks a bunch HM64. That is very kind of you.

Also, they _were_ gonna name a wringer after me a couple decades ago, but those new fangled dryers took the wind outta that sail.


----------



## CantSitStill

No Calvin's right, at the time I said I had no faults in the marriage and boy was I wrong..so glad I came out of that foggy state of mind.
My new motto is : It is NEVER too late to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

> Margrace, thanks for the update. I have been thinking about you. I'm glad that things are looking more up than down, even if they are moving slowly. And though it's hard, slow is not necessarily a bad thing ...You really have to take it one day at a time for it to stick.
> 
> Also, we still have our best and most honest talks at night in our hot tub, and I attribute that mostly to it being in the dark. I think making it where we aren't staring at each other takes some of the pressure off both of us, and we feel like we have a little anonymity in the dark, if that makes any sense.


thank you for those thoughts, *CM*! and the one-day-at-a-time reminder is one that i personally always need. i understand it in my head... it is just so hard to do. but i really see how rushing things (and always being the one to try to fix everything) has not helped R and has actually *hurt me*.



CantSitStill said:


> Just wanna say just like EI I didn't think Calvin really loved me anymore also pre-EA and when he made changes I kept thinking "he's gonna go back to his old ways" but I was soo wrong. A year later and he is still doing a great job of being the husband that's much more loving and patient. We all get scared and get doubts the BS does because they are afraid the WS is gonna go back to cheating. Also all marriages have their different problems to fix.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you *CSS*! this is the kind of helpful thing that i was talking about from the WSs -- and i understand that you understand that you have things to change too. but my H also did not feel loved pre-A. no excuse for A! but it is a fact and those fears that you mention are part of the big picture that we are all trying to understand. 

i would not be getting a sense of the whole story if you and others were not willing to share your experiences 



> Good to hear from you Margrace, I was wondering how you were doing just yesterday.
> 
> I was patient because I did see progress and I also knew what I had put her through and she had to learn to believe in and trust me too. You see, that part is NEVER in the equation here, for me it was.... EI was feeling me out too, seeing if this new me would stick around. It took her a little while to believe in me and to know my love was real. (Remember, she was convinced I didn't love her)
> 
> So, don't get to hung up on timing, it really boils down to how much time YOU are willing to put into this and how patient and I guess how tolerant you are. All this is, of course, assuming he is keeping with NC.


thank you *B1*! yes, you put your finger on it -- both people are testing the is-it-real waters at the same time. and i DO need to go with my instincts a little and not get too swayed by others' timelines. 

we all know that the problem comes in when we have learned the hard way that our instincts can definitely be fooled 

and it's always assuming that he has gone NC. _assuming._

he can fool me and has been willing to fool me. i can never undo that or investigate everything thoroughly enough to rule it out completely and forever. *hate that.*

at the same time, i am waiting to hear something from him that is more committed and clear on the issues of NC and transparency. 

until then, i sort of have one foot out the door emotionally BUT i am working at the same time to have a marriage for us to come back to. that is a phrase that i remember from an iheartlife post somewhere -- she said that while she and her WH were working towards reconciling, she still acted lovingly even when they weren't there yet, because there has to be a marriage to come back to.

B1, it is so helpful to know how you and EI are continuing to get through these difficult waters.



> I did this over the past seven years. Not sure how many years you have been going through with yours? ...We tried various avenues to "fix" things usually initiated by me over the years. I think it was more or less a lip service on his part. He was seeing other women whilst I thought we were going forward together by participating in these things. Quiet, uncommunicative type is such a hard work. You are constantly left wondering what he is up to. Isn't that so wearing for you?


seven years sounds so so rough on you, *omegaa*... i am so sorry to hear that. it's been 8 months for me and it already feels like forever.

my H is an uncommunicative person who avoids conflict and dislikes telling anyone anything that they do not want to hear. he doesn't really admit uncomfortable truths to himself, either. on top of that, i think he felt very judged by me over the years and felt that the only way to deal with that was to hide anything that i might see unfavorably. this is the way that his whole family deals with life to this day -- they literally make up stories to account for family troubles and tragedies and then they talk together through the years as though the stories are true. the stories kind of become a family tradition and no one ever questions them _even though they are fiction_ and they don't always even make sense. i'm not exaggerating about this one bit.

and yes, those quiet people are very draining to deal with -- particularly when there is a big problem that needs to be worked on and silence doesn't help you work on it. and i don't know how much more i can give. i know better than to estimate exactly how much longer that is -- seems like there are so many ups and downs to this R process. 

at the same time, the overall process *has* changed for me over time. the devastating, surreal, crying-all-day part finally ended.... then the slightly more sane, but still very shaky and preoccupied stage began and ended.... and now i'm in a place where i still feel sad, but i have sobered up in some way and am not frightened of moving on. i still hope for a different outcome and am working toward that -- but i am also working on my own life because i see that i might not get what i hoped for.

i guess as long as every week seems a little better, i will stick with what CM and others are saying about one day at a time.

xoxo mg


----------



## Omegaa

margrace said:


> seven years sounds so so rough on you, *omegaa*... i am so sorry to hear that. it's been 8 months for me and it already feels like forever.
> 
> my H is an uncommunicative person who avoids conflict and dislikes telling anyone anything that they do not want to hear. he doesn't really admit uncomfortable truths to himself, either. on top of that, i think he felt very judged by me over the years and felt that the only way to deal with that was to hide anything that i might see unfavorably. this is the way that his whole family deals with life to this day -- they literally make up stories to account for family troubles and tragedies and then they talk together through the years as though the stories are true. the stories kind of become a family tradition and no one ever questions them _even though they are fiction_ and they don't always even make sense. i'm not exaggerating about this one bit.
> 
> and yes, those quiet people are very draining to deal with -- particularly when there is a big problem that needs to be worked on and silence doesn't help you work on it. and i don't know how much more i can give. i know better than to estimate exactly how much longer that is -- seems like there are so many ups and downs to this R process.
> 
> but i am also working on my own life because i see that i might not get what i hoped for.
> 
> i guess as long as every week seems a little better, i will stick with what CM and others are saying about one day at a time.
> 
> xoxo mg


Mg....Thank you so much for your heartfelt reply with so much candor and openness. You do sound like a very sincere, honest and open person as I strive to be when your/my h may have a different personality altogether. 

Do you get any passive aggressive behaviour from him in your marriage? 

Does he answer your simple questions OK? Or is he evasive and can throw in some "white lies" here and there? Any immature and childish behaviour when it comes to dealing with real-life problems? I find these "mysterious and brooding" type of men do know how to cast a web of deceits and lies to construct their bubble for their protection not that I am saying your h does. 

Obviously, yours and mine are both grown adults and they are not going to change their personality, which had been built through years after years. Also have you ever noticed that these people seem to have a set of belief system which aren't in sync with your own hence constantly creating further conflicts / discord in marriage? 

On a brighter note, I'm sure your h does have virtues and qualities. Mine did / still does. It's very difficult to cut the cord completely as a result. However, this time in my case, it's finally happening and I'm waiting for him to confirm that that's what we both want to do at the moment. (however, I believe mine has been stonewalling as always)

You are wise and thoughtful in your approach - perhaps, we learn from our experience which make us stronger, wiser and more enriched.

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and thoughts. xxx


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> at the same time, the overall process *has* changed for me over time. the devastating, surreal, crying-all-day part finally ended.... then the slightly more sane, but still very shaky and preoccupied stage began and ended.... and now i'm in a place where i still feel sad, but i have sobered up in some way and am not frightened of moving on. i still hope for a different outcome and am working toward that -- but i am also working on my own life because i see that i might not get what i hoped for.
> 
> i guess as long as every week seems a little better, i will stick with what CM and others are saying about one day at a time.
> 
> xoxo mg


You really have your sh1t together, margrace. Good for you.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By MarGrace
> at the same time, the overall process has changed for me over time. the devastating, surreal, crying-all-day part finally ended.... then the slightly more sane, but still very shaky and preoccupied stage began and ended.... and now i'm in a place where i still feel sad, but i have sobered up in some way and am not frightened of moving on. i still hope for a different outcome and am working toward that -- *but i am also working on my own life because i see that i might not get what i hoped for.*



Under the circumstances you are doing very well. 
You are getting to the point that you are going to make it with or without him IMO
You may get shaky knees and more heart aches but you will survive and be fine. 

*No one person is your whole life.*

*Hope he see how valuable you are.*


----------



## margrace

thank you, *bobka* and *mr. b.*, for those words of affirmation - i heart you both for that 

and i do have a large percentage of my sh*t more together, but not all of it. i still have those moments when panic and exhaustion and disbelief wash over me....and i am also in denial to some extent about how painful it will be if this whole R thing comes crashing down (again). but i am doing SO much better than i was even just a month ago.

*omegaa*, thank you for your kind words also! 

_Do you get any passive aggressive behaviour from him in your marriage?_

my H's evasiveness doesn't have that feel to it exactly. it's more like escapism than aggression... it's more like a kid who doesn't want to get in trouble (or who wants to get away with something) so he hides out for as long as possible.

_Does he answer your simple questions OK? Or is he evasive and can throw in some "white lies" here and there? Any immature and childish behaviour when it comes to dealing with real-life problems? _

he answers simple questions okay for a while, then gets frustrated or overwhelmed or feels guilty and shuts down. yes, there are some lies of different colors in there. and yes, there is the childish behavior that i mentioned before re: conflict avoidance.

_Also have you ever noticed that these people seem to have a set of belief system which aren't in sync with your own hence constantly creating further conflicts / discord in marriage?_

the discord that we have is about the importance of honest, open communication. H is willing to DO lots of little things to improve the day-to-day reality of our relationship -- but says next to nothing about anything, especially feelings, personal issues, etc.

i have realized that i probably want to talk too much and too often. people on this thread have helped me realize that as well as my therapist. so we have to meet in the middle a little bit. i have to show him that i value his actions and not be dismissive of his efforts. and he has to push himself to be talk and be introspective. 

also, he is going to have to tolerate what he will consider some invasion of his privacy by me. he finds this very irritating.

_On a brighter note, I'm sure your h does have virtues and qualities. Mine did / still does. It's very difficult to cut the cord completely as a result. However, this time in my case, it's finally happening and I'm waiting for him to confirm that that's what we both want to do at the moment. (however, I believe mine has been stonewalling as always)_

yes, that's the hard part, right? if you don't find that your WS is a sociopath, then what you have is an essentially okay person who did something terrible... and i love my H. there is an awful lot that's good about him. 

and i may be different from you here (although i have it in common with B1): our marriage was truly dead and harmful to both of us before his A. and i do believe that my H suffered in a different way than i did during that time -- i have a steely part to me that kicks in when things get tough, and he does not really have that. that does not justify what he did, but it's a fact.

thanks for the good questions, omegaa! helps me think and you will see that others give amazing input on these issues.


----------



## ChangingMe

margrace said:


> he answers simple questions okay for a while, then gets frustrated or overwhelmed or feels guilty and shuts down. and yes, there is the childish behavior that i mentioned before re: conflict avoidance.


I wanted to comment here, in case I can provide a little insight into a WS's mind. I can TOTALLY relate to this. There are times when I have to literally force myself to keep talking about the A or how it has impacted my H. It is like a battle within me, because I want so much to not face the pain I caused and the horrible actions I did. It can be overwhelming, I do feel enormously guilty, and I have to fight shutting down. Early on, DD accused me of not being upset because he did not see me react when he was hurling hurtful words at me. I would shut down when he did that, and then when I went to work (about the only time I was alone), I would break down and sob. I couldn't do it in front of him. 

I try very, very hard to keep talking when DD wants to talk. He deserves that, as do you and Omegaa. Me being uncomfortable or not wanting to remember these things is not an excuse, because he is feeling more pain than I am and has no choice but to remember what I've done. So I have to own that and fight through my desire to disengage. But I wanted to acknowledge that I feel that desire very strongly at times, and it's not that I'm not trying to own my stuff, it's just really hard to think and talk about.


----------



## calvin

Its rough CM,its hard to get out of our heads sometimes.
We need you guys to have patience and be there for us.
Your doing a good job,keep it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> Its rough CM,its hard to get out of our heads sometimes.
> We need you guys to have patience and be there for us.
> Your doing a good job,keep it up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course it is, Calvin, and I really am not complaining. That's why I fight through -it would be totally unfair of me to say that I don't want to talk about it or get upset. I've been unfair more than enough towards my husband, so the least I can do is process things with him when he needs it. I was just trying to give MG and Omegaa a little insight saying that I too have felt the urge to withdraw from conversations, even when I desperately want to R. Even still, I will be there for DD for as long as he will let me. 

Thank you for your kind words, Calvin. They mean a lot.


----------



## CantSitStill

I've noticed so many similar things that the truly remorseful WS' say here. I can relate. I have beaten myself up mentally thru this. It is not easy to forgive myself and yes it's hard to talk about but definately worth fighting for. I have cried in the bathroom alot, had panic attacks and yes I also shut down when he triggers. We still have alot of counseling to do. This counselor wants to see us individually soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

good morning -- not too much time to write this morning but just wanted to say:

*thank you, CM and CSS * along with EI and the other WSs who have posted here.

you helped me personally so much yesterday. i look at my WS and i see such strong feelings beneath the surface -- and a man who can barely identify them or put them into words. it's like i'm asking him to suddenly speak a foreign language that he never learned.

obviously everyone is different and you can't speak for anyone else BUT every time you share what it has been like for you, i get a clue about him. 

we had a difficult but good conversation last night and i don't think it would have happened without you. 

xoxo mg


----------



## B1

EI and I have been in a much better place since last Friday. We actually had a very rough last Wed. Actually calmly talking about giving up, Yes, we both talked about it. I had been in a bad place on and off for weeks and as my counselor calls it I had started back with the attack type questions, or the hurtful questions. These are questions that are really meant to try and get her to hurt like I do, so I ask the questions with brutal bluntness. This puts EI in a bad place, she will answer them but after a while she begins to shut down and fall into a dark place.


Well we covered the fact it didn't appear I was healing and she couldn't take much more of my attacks. So we discussed ending it all. Obviously, we concluded we wanted to continue this R and working on us. Since then there has a been a very positive change in both of us. I am no longer feeling the constant lump in my throat, the hurt isn't as raw as it was. I am not obsessing near as much over the A and I backed off EI a lot with questions. I still have them but not as much and I have learned to ask them in a kinder gentler way. Now that EI is out of the pressure cooker she has been happier and more alive and it's been SO nice. When we do talk about the A now it's, well, It's just easier and not as painful. I guess I am focusing more now on us and our future instead of trying to piece together the past. Perhaps I am coming to acceptance?

We are also now talking much more about other things, not just the A. 

Anyway, we have had some of the best days ever since this R. I think we turned a corner though I am not sure why or what exactly happened. I just hope it sticks 

I am sure there will still be bad moments and this ride, I know, is far from over but, our R is definitely going in the right direction and it feels good.

I will leave you all with something I read yesterday and it hit home:

_"This rockiness and instability will occur for a very long time. You need to expect that. It doesn’t mean that this problem is insurmountable, it just means that this problem is on its way to being resolved. It happens slowly."_


----------



## margrace

betrayed1 said:


> EI and I have been in a much better place since last Friday. We actually had a very rough last Wed. Actually calmly talking about giving up, Yes, we both talked about it....Anyway, we have had some of the best days ever since this R. I think we turned a corner though I am not sure why or what exactly happened. I just hope it sticks
> 
> I am sure there will still be bad moments and this ride, I know, is far from over but, our R is definitely going in the right direction and it feels good.


hurray for turning a corner 

i have times, too, where everything can be okay and then i am suddenly overtaken with this furious feeling of "omg, how _COULD_ you?!" that's legit, right? we understand that feeling. but acting out of that place does not lead to my proudest moments either 

you're both loving, honest, humble, and brave, and you're dealing with what's real. that's as good as it gets


----------



## cpacan

betrayed1 said:


> EI and I have been in a much better place since last Friday. We actually had a very rough last Wed. Actually calmly talking about giving up, Yes, we both talked about it. I had been in a bad place on and off for weeks and as my counselor calls it I had started back with the attack type questions, or the hurtful questions. These are questions that are really meant to try and get her to hurt like I do, so I ask the questions with brutal bluntness. This puts EI in a bad place, she will answer them but after a while she begins to shut down and fall into a dark place.
> 
> 
> Well we covered the fact it didn't appear I was healing and she couldn't take much more of my attacks. So we discussed ending it all. Obviously, we concluded we wanted to continue this R and working on us. Since then there has a been a very positive change in both of us. I am no longer feeling the constant lump in my throat, the hurt isn't as raw as it was. I am not obsessing near as much over the A and I backed off EI a lot with questions. I still have them but not as much and I have learned to ask them in a kinder gentler way. Now that EI is out of the pressure cooker she has been happier and more alive and it's been SO nice. When we do talk about the A now it's, well, It's just easier and not as painful. I guess I am focusing more now on us and our future instead of trying to piece together the past. Perhaps I am coming to acceptance?
> 
> We are also now talking much more about other things, not just the A.
> 
> Anyway, we have had some of the best days ever since this R. I think we turned a corner though I am not sure why or what exactly happened. I just hope it sticks
> 
> I am sure there will still be bad moments and this ride, I know, is far from over but, our R is definitely going in the right direction and it feels good.
> 
> I will leave you all with something I read yesterday and it hit home:
> 
> _"This rockiness and instability will occur for a very long time. You need to expect that. It doesn’t mean that this problem is insurmountable, it just means that this problem is on its way to being resolved. It happens slowly."_


Sorry to hear you have had a rough time, but happy to see that you decided to work it through.

I think it's quite a paradox that you are convinced that you have future together, but you can't let go of the past... if you didn't have a past, what would you and EI's life look like?

Think hard about this: The PAST isn't here - the NOW is here, the NOW is your life, and that's what matters.

Take care.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Actually calmly talking about giving up, Yes, we both talked about it. I had been in a bad place on and off for weeks and as my counselor calls it I had started back with the attack type questions, or the hurtful questions. These are questions that are really meant to try and get her to hurt like I do, so I ask the questions with brutal bluntness. This puts EI in a bad place, she will answer them but after a while she begins to shut down and fall into a dark place.
> 
> My heart hurt as I read this. You guys have worked so hard. To give up would be crazy, and would rend your family in such bad ways. I know you can't just think of the kids, but there is so much to you guys, so much to be gained by working together as a unit. You are not young, you know - but there's a life ahead, and yeah, there's a past behind, but that's done. What's done is done.
> 
> I have to confess: this week, I, too, thought of giving up. There's so much baggage, so much trouble ahead for us (we're looking at some further financial difficulties) and so much hurt that I can't always seem to work past, but then I think about how fulfilling it is when we are "good". It's better than anything else!
> 
> I am no longer feeling the constant lump in my throat, the hurt isn't as raw as it was. I am not obsessing near as much over the A and I backed off EI a lot with questions. I still have them but not as much and I have learned to ask them in a kinder gentler way.
> 
> It's just so all about time, isn't it? The further we get from the hurt, the easier it is to deal with things. Funny, now that we're older, we want time to slow down, but not the time since an A. _That_ we want to pass quickly!
> 
> Anyway, we have had some of the best days ever since this R. I think we turned a corner though I am not sure why or what exactly happened. I just hope it sticks
> 
> Hooray for corners!
> _"This rockiness and instability will occur for a very long time. You need to expect that. It doesn’t mean that this problem is insurmountable, it just means that this problem is on its way to being resolved. It happens slowly."_


Again, time, our friend.


----------



## Omegaa

ChangingMe said:


> So I have to own that and fight through my desire to disengage. But I wanted to acknowledge that I feel that desire very strongly at times, and it's not that I'm not trying to own my stuff, it's just really hard to think and talk about.


Thank you Margrace so much. My mstbx wh came home last night. I will reply to you when I have more time. Thank your lovely thoughts. Wishing you well. xxx

Thank you for your honest post in your shoes which enlightened me so much.

xxx


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Way to go B1 and EI! This R thing can be a real B1TCH when she wants to be, can't she?

I have to confess to be more of a lurker than a poster. But my wife and I have been in R now for a year, and I see so many similarities in what you guys are pushing through and the challenges we have had and still sometimes have. 

I struggle A LOT with focusing on the past, asking hurtful questions etc. It's so weird how things going really well for awhile can actually BE THE PROBLEM. Subconsciously, my shields start to go up when things are going well, we are getting closer, things are becoming more normal and we are genuinely happy. That's exactly when the b1tchy side of R shows up! It took me a long time to start to see the pattern and predict when a "life is good" trigger was about to go on.

A few months back, we had been doing really well in our R - we had several weeks with good intimacy, communication and just fun. Date nights, fun family nights out for dinner, get togethers with neighbors, great MC sessions etc. I mean things were rolling right along for us, and we felt connected and good about things. 

Then, out of nowhere, we hit a really rough patch. I was in a bad place, and kept focusing on how terrified I was that my wife was so capable of the this level of deceit. 

With our situation, there was a pattern of escalation over a a few years in her behavior. She flirted with a guy at work until he asked her out, then she freaked out and backed away from him. Then she was at a party flirting with a different guy and he tried to kiss her, she freaked out and backed away. Then she flirted with a different guy at a conference, ended up kissing for a few minutes until he started getting handsy and then she freaked out and backed away. The final event that lead to the full blown affair was yet another guy at a conference, flirting, kissing and then back to his hotel room for full contact sex. 

I kept asking her how she could possibly continue to betray me each of these steps and yet go back again for more? I would say things like "what kind of person can do that?". "What kind of a psychopath can live for YEARS with that level of deceit and not show signs of it?". I told her that it scared the hell out of me that she was capable of that.

In hindsight, I see that I was trying to hurt her. Trying to force both of us back into the pain. Trying to make sure "we wouldn't forget". I have always been scared of things just going back to normal, since that complacency lead to some of the issues we had in our marriage. 

But I realized that this latest set back was all my doing. Nothing had changed with us. No new deception. No new information about previous betrayals. THE ONLY THING THAT HAD CHANGED WAS MY DESIRE TO RELIVE THE PAIN AND FORCE IT ON HER.

And then I asked myself what I was accomplishing with this? Did I really want to walk away from the R? Nope. Was it somehow helping me heal? Nope. Was it somehow helping her in her journey to be a better person? Nope. The only thing it was doing was inhibiting our happiness and our growth together. So I put it down and walked away.

And now when I start to feel that thought creep into my head, I ask myself some questions. Has something changed in the relationship or in our lives? Is this new information or a new realization? Is this something that will help us grow together or as individuals? If the answers are all no, I put it down and walk away.

This exercise has been really helpful for me, and I think really constructive for us. Rather than periodically trying to burn the whole thing down, we just keep adding on to what we already have. 

It has made me wonder if part of the urge to burn it down is because we have felt closer and more connected during these times of crisis than we did before. I mean let's be honest, during these times of crisis, we are hyper-focused on each other and feel like its us vs. the world.

It also tests my wife's resolve and assures me she is committed to things. If she was already thinking bout leaving the R, then surely this would be the the moment she would do so. 

And in my head it also acts as a defense mechanism for future betrayals as it keeps the pain and anguish right at the surface as a reminder for her. If I can be the constant reminder of her transgressions and the resulting pain and anguish we have both suffered, it will make the fantasy of an affair appear as exactly that - a fantasy.

But the truth is, no relationship can survive this constant cycle of good times immediately followed by eruptions of chaos and destruction. It's exhausting, for all parties. I finally realized that in my desire to preserve us and this closeness, I would ultimately destroy exactly that.

It gets easier, you just have to keep pushing yourself to round the corner. Push past being the victim and become the survivor. It is a constant effort, but requires less and less energy each month. 

Thanks for listening to my random flow of consciousness.

Keep fighting the good fight, you guys are doing awesome! So many people here on TAM need to see couples like you and the others on this thread in order to draw inspiration. It can be done! It takes work, but it can be the most rewarding thing in the world!


----------



## margrace

> Rather than periodically trying to burn the whole thing down, we just keep adding on to what we already have.
> 
> It has made me wonder if part of the urge to burn it down is because we have felt closer and more connected during these times of crisis than we did before. I mean let's be honest, during these times of crisis, we are hyper-focused on each other and feel like its us vs. the world... And in my head it also acts as a defense mechanism for future betrayals as it keeps the pain and anguish right at the surface as a reminder for her. If I can be the constant reminder of her transgressions and the resulting pain and anguish we have both suffered, it will make the fantasy of an affair appear as exactly that - a fantasy.
> 
> But the truth is, no relationship can survive this constant cycle of good times immediately followed by eruptions of chaos and destruction. It's exhausting, for all parties. I finally realized that in my desire to preserve us and this closeness, I would ultimately destroy exactly that.
> 
> It gets easier, you just have to keep pushing yourself to round the corner. Push past being the victim and become the survivor. It is a constant effort, but requires less and less energy each month.


awesome, awesome post, never. i will be re-reading this one a few times. thank you


----------



## Acabado

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> In hindsight, I see that I was trying to hurt her. Trying to force both of us back into the pain. Trying to make sure "we wouldn't forget". I have always been scared of things just going back to normal, since that complacency lead to some of the issues we had in our marriage.
> 
> But I realized that this latest set back was all my doing. Nothing had changed with us. No new deception. No new information about previous betrayals. THE ONLY THING THAT HAD CHANGED WAS MY DESIRE TO RELIVE THE PAIN AND FORCE IT ON HER.
> 
> And then I asked myself what I was accomplishing with this? Did I really want to walk away from the R? Nope. Was it somehow helping me heal? Nope. Was it somehow helping her in her journey to be a better person? Nope. The only thing it was doing was inhibiting our happiness and our growth together. So I put it down and walked away.
> 
> And now when I start to feel that thought creep into my head, I ask myself some questions. Has something changed in the relationship or in our lives? Is this new information or a new realization? Is this something that will help us grow together or as individuals? If the answers are all no, I put it down and walk away.
> 
> This exercise has been really helpful for me, and I think really constructive for us. Rather than periodically trying to burn the whole thing down, we just keep adding on to what we already have.
> 
> It has made me wonder if part of the urge to burn it down is because we have felt closer and more connected during these times of crisis than we did before. I mean let's be honest, during these times of crisis, we are hyper-focused on each other and feel like its us vs. the world.
> 
> It also tests my wife's resolve and assures me she is committed to things. If she was already thinking bout leaving the R, then surely this would be the the moment she would do so.
> 
> And in my head it also acts as a defense mechanism for future betrayals as it keeps the pain and anguish right at the surface as a reminder for her. If I can be the constant reminder of her transgressions and the resulting pain and anguish we have both suffered, it will make the fantasy of an affair appear as exactly that - a fantasy.
> 
> But the truth is, no relationship can survive this constant cycle of good times immediately followed by eruptions of chaos and destruction. It's exhausting, for all parties. I finally realized that in my desire to preserve us and this closeness, I would ultimately destroy exactly that.
> 
> It gets easier, you just have to keep pushing yourself to round the corner. Push past being the victim and become the survivor. It is a constant effort, but requires less and less energy each month.


Thank your very much NH2M. This advice should be a Reconciliation sticky. Way to ride the rollercoaster, refusing to loose sight of reality and the real goal.
Really great.

:smthumbup:

It's also true that "dealing with it" often become an "affair" itself, chaos become normal, even safe. Intensity is confused with intimacy.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Way to go B1 and EI! This R thing can be a real B1TCH when she wants to be, can't she?
> 
> Thanks for listening to my random flow of consciousness.
> 
> Keep fighting the good fight, you guys are doing awesome! So many people here on TAM need to see couples like you and the others on this thread in order to draw inspiration. It can be done! It takes work, but it can be the most rewarding thing in the world!


B1, listen to this guy. This should be very helpful to you!


----------



## ChangingMe

Never, that is an amazing post, and it makes a lot of sense. I can see where, when things are going well and feeling too 'normal,' it can be concerning that they will go right back to how they used to be. I am seeing how important it is to keep the marriage a priority and not backslide. I also think it's great that you are able to stop yourself and analyze the situation at hand to figure out what is behind your feelings. I think that's a good thing to process with your wife when you're feeling that way, so you two can talk through it together. I know that if DD came to me and said, "Things are going good, but that scares me a bit." I would be more than happy to process it with him and figure out how to help us both be more comfortable.


----------



## ChangingMe

A little update on me and DD: I feel like we are really making some progress, and it is awesome. 

Prior to he and I joining TAM, we went through a really good phase post DDay, when he went on Zoloft the first time in late August/early September. In that time, he put his wedding ring back on, said he was going to stay with me, that he was past the anger and pain, etc. I was really naive at that time, and just so relieved that he had made a decision not to divorce me. At that time, I just really followed his lead: if he brought up the A, we talked about it. If he didn't bring it up, then I sure wasn't going to. If we didn't talk about it, it seemed to me like things were going well. 

Then he went off the Zoloft, and everything came crashing down -on our family trip to Orlando, no less. I felt blindsided, since I felt like we were past a lot of the pain. Clearly not. And now I can say OF COURSE not! Even now, December 19 will be 6 months past DDay. We're not even at half a year past the worst thing we've gone through in our marriage. After our trip, the ring came back off, the angry words started again, the discussions about leaving me were brought up, and he joined TAM and posted about how he hated his life. Many of you have followed us over the past few months, with DD's ambivalence over whether or not he wants R or D. We've had some good days, and we've had some really bad days.

So now DD is back on Zoloft, and while it is helping, neither of us is naive enough to think that we're 'past' this. We had a great talk last night, and DD is in a really good place right now, but he is worried it is just because of the medicine. I too am scared that when he stops it this time, he will fall back into the depression and anger. I feel though that this time we are both so much better prepared for that, and that while he is in a good, functioning place, we are still talking, working, and addressing our issues -both about the A and about our marriage in general. I think that is where the difference will be made -if we continue working over the next couple months, then hopefully when he does wean off, he won't be left with nothing. We will have built and worked on our relationship, and that will help him to cope when he doesn't have the extra serotonin giving him a boost. 

He told me last night that he loves me, that he wants to stay married to me, that he believes I'm sorry and that I won't do this again. All of those things make me weep. They make me want to be the best wife I can be and prove to him that he made the right choice and won't be sorry for giving me another chance.

Again, I know we have a long road ahead of us and I know there will still be bad days and set backs, but I feel a lot of hope today, and I am so thankful for it.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Thanks for the kind words guys, I think that sometimes my postings are most useful to me as it forces me to distill my thinking and really analyze things. A useful exercise to say the least.

ChangingMe, awesome to hear that you guys are moving forward. It's hard work, but so rewarding! Keep fighting the good fight!


----------



## B1

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Way to go B1 and EI! This R thing can be a real B1TCH when she wants to be, can't she?
> 
> I have to confess to be more of a lurker than a poster. But my wife and I have been in R now for a year, and I see so many similarities in what you guys are pushing through and the challenges we have had and still sometimes have.
> 
> I struggle A LOT with focusing on the past, asking hurtful questions etc. It's so weird how things going really well for awhile can actually BE THE PROBLEM. Subconsciously, my shields start to go up when things are going well, we are getting closer, things are becoming more normal and we are genuinely happy. That's exactly when the b1tchy side of R shows up! It took me a long time to start to see the pattern and predict when a "life is good" trigger was about to go on.
> 
> A few months back, we had been doing really well in our R - we had several weeks with good intimacy, communication and just fun. Date nights, fun family nights out for dinner, get togethers with neighbors, great MC sessions etc. I mean things were rolling right along for us, and we felt connected and good about things.
> 
> Then, out of nowhere, we hit a really rough patch. I was in a bad place, and kept focusing on how terrified I was that my wife was so capable of the this level of deceit.
> 
> Yes, sometimes I just think My God I can't believe she did it, she really did it and it *scares *me to death.
> 
> 
> With our situation, there was a pattern of escalation over a a few years in her behavior. She flirted with a guy at work until he asked her out, then she freaked out and backed away from him. Then she was at a party flirting with a different guy and he tried to kiss her, she freaked out and backed away. Then she flirted with a different guy at a conference, ended up kissing for a few minutes until he started getting handsy and then she freaked out and backed away. The final event that lead to the full blown affair was yet another guy at a conference, flirting, kissing and then back to his hotel room for full contact sex.
> 
> I kept asking her how she could possibly continue to betray me each of these steps and yet go back again for more? I would say things like "what kind of person can do that?". "What kind of a psychopath can live for YEARS with that level of deceit and not show signs of it?". I told her that it scared the hell out of me that she was capable of that.
> 
> In hindsight, I see that I was trying to hurt her. Trying to force both of us back into the pain. Trying to make sure "we wouldn't forget". I have always been scared of things just going back to normal, since that complacency lead to some of the issues we had in our marriage.
> 
> I so get this, I really get it. This is what I am doing. I want to force the pain on us so we won't forget, so she won't forget. I realize this is the wrong way to go about R. But in my defense it is hurt driven and sometimes that hurt is like a freight train and just can't be stopped. However, I WILL learn to stop this train in the future before it gets up to speed.
> 
> 
> 
> But I realized that this latest set back was all my doing. Nothing had changed with us. No new deception. No new information about previous betrayals. THE ONLY THING THAT HAD CHANGED WAS MY DESIRE TO RELIVE THE PAIN AND FORCE IT ON HER.
> 
> Yep, me again!
> 
> And then I asked myself what I was accomplishing with this? Did I really want to walk away from the R? Nope. Was it somehow helping me heal? Nope. Was it somehow helping her in her journey to be a better person? Nope. The only thing it was doing was inhibiting our happiness and our growth together. So I put it down and walked away.
> 
> 
> And now when I start to feel that thought creep into my head, I ask myself some questions. Has something changed in the relationship or in our lives? Is this new information or a new realization? Is this something that will help us grow together or as individuals? If the answers are all no, I put it down and walk away.
> 
> I had already been trying something similar but this sounds like a great idea, I will do this.
> 
> 
> This exercise has been really helpful for me, and I think really constructive for us. Rather than periodically trying to burn the whole thing down, we just keep adding on to what we already have.
> 
> It has made me wonder if part of the urge to burn it down is because we have felt closer and more connected during these times of crisis than we did before. I mean let's be honest, during these times of crisis, we are hyper-focused on each other and feel like its us vs. the world.
> 
> Yes, I agree. When we are in crises mode it is us against the world. Complacency = trouble in my mind.
> 
> It also tests my wife's resolve and assures me she is committed to things. If she was already thinking bout leaving the R, then surely this would be the the moment she would do so.
> 
> And in my head it also acts as a defense mechanism for future betrayals as it keeps the pain and anguish right at the surface as a reminder for her. If I can be the constant reminder of her transgressions and the resulting pain and anguish we have both suffered, it will make the fantasy of an affair appear as exactly that - a fantasy.
> 
> But the truth is, no relationship can survive this constant cycle of good times immediately followed by eruptions of chaos and destruction. It's exhausting, for all parties. I finally realized that in my desire to preserve us and this closeness, I would ultimately destroy exactly that.
> 
> No it cannot survive the constant cycle can it, It is so hard on EI when we have good days and then a bad one comes by and I remind her of all she did, it puts her in a dark place and if I keep at it she eventually shuts down which isn't good for either of us.
> 
> It gets easier, you just have to keep pushing yourself to round the corner. Push past being the victim and become the survivor. It is a constant effort, but requires less and less energy each month.
> 
> I have been using the survivor theme for a little while now.
> 
> 
> Thanks for listening to my random flow of consciousness.
> 
> Keep fighting the good fight, you guys are doing awesome! So many people here on TAM need to see couples like you and the others on this thread in order to draw inspiration. It can be done! It takes work, but it can be the most rewarding thing in the world!


There is a wealth of information in your post, thank you so much for posting this. I have read and re-read it several times. So much of ME is in your post. It helped EI understand me better and honestly, it helped me understand me better.


----------



## joe kidd

betrayed1 said:


> EI and I have been in a much better place since last Friday. We actually had a very rough last Wed. Actually calmly talking about giving up, Yes, we both talked about it. I had been in a bad place on and off for weeks and as my counselor calls it I had started back with the attack type questions, or the hurtful questions. These are questions that are really meant to try and get her to hurt like I do, so I ask the questions with brutal bluntness. This puts EI in a bad place, she will answer them but after a while she begins to shut down and fall into a dark place.
> 
> 
> Well we covered the fact it didn't appear I was healing and she couldn't take much more of my attacks. So we discussed ending it all. Obviously, we concluded we wanted to continue this R and working on us. Since then there has a been a very positive change in both of us. I am no longer feeling the constant lump in my throat, the hurt isn't as raw as it was. I am not obsessing near as much over the A and I backed off EI a lot with questions. I still have them but not as much and I have learned to ask them in a kinder gentler way. Now that EI is out of the pressure cooker she has been happier and more alive and it's been SO nice. When we do talk about the A now it's, well, It's just easier and not as painful. I guess I am focusing more now on us and our future instead of trying to piece together the past. Perhaps I am coming to acceptance?
> 
> We are also now talking much more about other things, not just the A.
> 
> Anyway, we have had some of the best days ever since this R. I think we turned a corner though I am not sure why or what exactly happened. I just hope it sticks
> 
> I am sure there will still be bad moments and this ride, I know, is far from over but, our R is definitely going in the right direction and it feels good.
> 
> I will leave you all with something I read yesterday and it hit home:
> 
> _"This rockiness and instability will occur for a very long time. You need to expect that. It doesn’t mean that this problem is insurmountable, it just means that this problem is on its way to being resolved. It happens slowly."_


I still want to revert to that from time to time. Silly things like a song on the radio or even a movie that was watched during that time will make it happen. 

The difference now is I don't take the path. It would be so easy to revisit the pain....to roll in it. 

There was also a part of me that resented any happiness she showed. A part that would brood and go into that dark place. It screamed "How dare she be happy when I hurt so damn much!". So I would make sure she knew what she did. ( she already knew, she lived with it everyday too) 

I had to find a way to let her know what I was thinking without spewing hate and bile. I think I have....hope you can too.


----------



## B1

ChangingMe said:


> A little update on me and DD: I feel like we are really making some progress, and it is awesome.
> 
> Prior to he and I joining TAM, we went through a really good phase post DDay, when he went on Zoloft the first time in late August/early September. In that time, he put his wedding ring back on, said he was going to stay with me, that he was past the anger and pain, etc. I was really naive at that time, and just so relieved that he had made a decision not to divorce me. At that time, I just really followed his lead: if he brought up the A, we talked about it. If he didn't bring it up, then I sure wasn't going to. If we didn't talk about it, it seemed to me like things were going well.
> 
> Then he went off the Zoloft, and everything came crashing down -on our family trip to Orlando, no less. I felt blindsided, since I felt like we were past a lot of the pain. Clearly not. And now I can say OF COURSE not! Even now, December 19 will be 6 months past DDay. We're not even at half a year past the worst thing we've gone through in our marriage. After our trip, the ring came back off, the angry words started again, the discussions about leaving me were brought up, and he joined TAM and posted about how he hated his life. Many of you have followed us over the past few months, with DD's ambivalence over whether or not he wants R or D. We've had some good days, and we've had some really bad days.
> 
> So now DD is back on Zoloft, and while it is helping, neither of us is naive enough to think that we're 'past' this. We had a great talk last night, and DD is in a really good place right now, but he is worried it is just because of the medicine. I too am scared that when he stops it this time, he will fall back into the depression and anger. I feel though that this time we are both so much better prepared for that, and that while he is in a good, functioning place, we are still talking, working, and addressing our issues -both about the A and about our marriage in general. I think that is where the difference will be made -if we continue working over the next couple months, then hopefully when he does wean off, he won't be left with nothing. We will have built and worked on our relationship, and that will help him to cope when he doesn't have the extra serotonin giving him a boost.
> 
> He told me last night that he loves me, that he wants to stay married to me, that he believes I'm sorry and that I won't do this again. All of those things make me weep. They make me want to be the best wife I can be and prove to him that he made the right choice and won't be sorry for giving me another chance.
> 
> Again, I know we have a long road ahead of us and I know there will still be bad days and set backs, but I feel a lot of hope today, and I am so thankful for it.


This is so good to hear cm. I am happy for you two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh dear, all I can say is we have had those moments where he says he is totally in and knows he wont leave me..umm well it's not over. He now is back to thinking of divorce..almost a year later and the pain is raw again..I've been doing my part but listen we REALLY hurt them in the worst way ever. I hope and pray we make it and all of you do too, it's not easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

NeverHappenToMe: wow great post, describes how my husband feels, I'll make sure he reads it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

> Again, I know we have a long road ahead of us and I know there will still be bad days and set backs, but I feel a lot of hope today, and I am so thankful for it.





betrayed1 said:


> This is so good to hear cm. I am happy for you two.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> Oh dear, all I can say is we have had those moments where he says he is totally in and knows he wont leave me..umm well it's not over. He now is back to thinking of divorce..almost a year later and the pain is raw again..I've been doing my part but listen we REALLY hurt them in the worst way ever. I hope and pray we make it and all of you do too, it's not easy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


SO hard... keeping you and your H in my thoughts. hang in there, CSS. xoxo mg


----------



## calvin

Ic was good tonight.That 4ft 2in counselors has nuts,she tough but also gets it.
Jewish girl,God they tell how it is.
Why is it still rough? Not sure.Tonight is going good and that means a good topmorrow usually.
CSS really needs some support right now with her job and I will have her back on this.
Trying hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

ChangingMe & DD! 
You were in my thoughts lately. So happy to hear the news.


----------



## CantSitStill

This thread has so much good info..I think I learn more here than I do in counseling. I mean, to really hear the heartfelt words of the BS helps me to understand and to hear other WS that are going thru the same things I am helps me know this is not unusual for our situations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Thank you all for the support and kind words. I am trying not to get too excited or overly optimistic. I know this does not mean days still won't be hard or that we won't have rough patches. But today is good, and I am thankful for that. Throughout all this, I have really learned not to take a single thing for granted and to be thankful for every day that I have with my husband and my family. 

CSS and Calvin, I continue to pray for you both and I believe you will survive together. I know there are lots of ups and downs for you both, but the love you have for each other is so evident. I pray that it continues to grow and helps you when you are hurting.


----------



## calvin

Thanks CM,hearing from other WS who are really sorry and see how they are doing all they can to make it right still keeps me going.
Remorse is a real,true human feeling.
You, EI,pidge and CSS and others on here show that hope is real and with a plan,there is a future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Update:

We are taking a break from MC. Our counselor thinks we are in good enough shape to take off for now, and check in sometime in January. We're both good with that, both satisfied that progress is being made. 

We are still working closer and closer together with the intimacy piece, and although the biggest part of the puzzle is still not in place, everything else is going very well.

Complicating things is this depression I'm in. I SO don't want to appear weak to her right now, but I'm in bad shape, and am kind of covering it up. I just can't afford for us to go backward, and my admission that I am falling apart inside could be a setback. 

Our family runs a thrift store through our ministry, raising money to give away clothing and personal items to disavantaged people. W and I will be working there together today for the first time, so I hope it goes well. Would appreciate your prayers as we continue to work things out.


----------



## pidge70

Sending positive vibes your way bobka!


----------



## SomedayDig

bobka said:


> Update:
> 
> We are taking a break from MC. Our counselor thinks we are in good enough shape to take off for now, and check in sometime in January. We're both good with that, both satisfied that progress is being made.
> 
> We are still working closer and closer together with the intimacy piece, and although the biggest part of the puzzle is still not in place, everything else is going very well.
> 
> Complicating things is this depression I'm in. I SO don't want to appear weak to her right now, but I'm in bad shape, and am kind of covering it up. I just can't afford for us to go backward, and my admission that I am falling apart inside could be a setback.
> 
> Our family runs a thrift store through our ministry, raising money to give away clothing and personal items to disavantaged people. W and I will be working there together today for the first time, so I hope it goes well. Would appreciate your prayers as we continue to work things out.


Prayers sent, bobka. I do want to caution you on one issue. That your MC thinks you're in good enough shape to take time away from counseling..._however_ in the next paragraph you talk about your struggle with depression. God knows I know that struggle all too well. Yet, if you haven't expressed that to your wife or your MC are you doing yourself a disservice?

By your own admission, you are in "bad shape" and "covering it up". That in and of itself constitutes a backslide IF you don't share where you are out of fear of a setback. Trust me...none of us want a setback as we progress.

Today is exactly 9 months to the date of Dday. Yesterday was a pretty tough day for Regret and I. A setback would have occurred if we each hadn't gone to our IC and later on in the evening talked about our feelings and what lead us to our dark place yesterday. Both of us were there. However, IMO a setback did NOT happen _because_ each of us were able to express what was going on deep within ourselves. Coupled with empathy toward each other, we hugged tightly. 

IF you feel like you're "falling apart"...even if it's just a little bit, I think it's okay to admit that. Heck! I think you should admit that. Not just for yourself, but for your wife to SEE with her own two eyes that you struggle daily with this stuff. It's not easy. No one said it was gonna be. It is the toughest fight in your life! It is said that infidelity is more difficult than losing a child. Don't take anything that is going on during your reconciliation lightly. Especially, when it comes to your feelings.

Peace.


----------



## old timer

*bobka*, I agree w/ *Dig*.

Considering your feelings, would IC maybe be appropriate for you? Do you and your W use the same person for IC as MC?


----------



## ChangingMe

Many prayers to you and your wife, bobka. 

I agree with Dig, and encourage you not to hide what you are going through. Are you in IC? I know you suffer with something -bipolar, am I right? If so, then I am sure you are somewhat used to highs and lows as it is, but to add dealing with infidelity on top of that has to be grueling. 

On this forum, there is so much talk about the 180, being the alpha male, don't appear weak, etc. And I think it has it's place. DD did his version of the 180 immediately following DDay2, and I really think it helped to snap me quickly out of my fog. But I think once you are truly in R, then none of that is helpful. If DD is hurting, I WANT to know about it, so that I can do all I can do to help him. Last month, when he could barely get out of bed, I did all I could do to take over with the kids/house/etc. and tried my best to fill in the gaps because I knew he was struggling. It hurt me so much to see him hurting, and I swear that my desire to have him go back on Zoloft was to get him out of that deep, dark pit and not because I thought I would benefit from him being happier. I care about him and his feelings, in a way that I clearly didn't 6 months ago. I want to make up for that as best I can. And when he's hurting or needs to cry or whatever, I am honored and grateful when he allows me to comfort him. I _should_ comfort him -I am his wife and his best friend. It doesn't mean he's weak. It means he is still suffering from the pain I caused, but that he is being kind enough to allow me be there for him, because for several months he wouldn't or couldn't. 

So don't hide from your wife, bobka. Take care of yourself, but allow her to try to take care of you as well. You admitting to what you're experiencing will not be a setback, even if it feels that way at first. If you truly want to heal your marriage, then you need to be honest in all things. Otherwise, it will seem like you're moving forward, but you really won't be, because there will be things you are suppressing. Deal with it now, so you can heal and move forward.

Good luck, bobka. Take care.


----------



## ChangingMe

I was thinking more on margrace's and Omegaa's comments about their H's not wanting to talk or react, and I went back and found an email I sent DD in July, about 5 weeks past DDay, when he commented that I didn't seem upset enough. I was going to send this in a PM, but I thought it might provide some insight to other BSs about what WS go through (or at least what has gone through my head). Not sure if it will help anyone, but reading back through it today, I can still totally remember and relate to these feelings.

I don’t know why I don’t show myself as devastated to you. For some reason, when you are angry/hateful/dismissive of me, I can hold myself together, though it kills me on the inside. Maybe it’s the same reaction as a kid trying not to cry when they’re getting spanked; I don’t really know. It’s not that I’m not affected; I just don’t let myself show it. If you notice, the times that I let my guard down and let you see what’s going on inside is when you are kind. I am pretty sure I have cried every time you have held me, let me touch you, or made love to me. Neither reaction is intentional (the keeping my guard up or letting it down); it is my body and mind doing what they do. 

I also think that I really don’t have the right to be crying about this to you. I have brought this devastation on myself, and I don’t want you to think that I am looking to you for comfort. I cry to my mom, and occasionally to [a friend of ours], and a lot to myself. I cry in the mornings at work a lot. Again, I don’t really feel like I can ask anyone to comfort me from the pain I have brought on myself, and so I do my best not to show it to anyone. But I feel like I have a big ball of pain and sadness and anger at myself in the pit of my stomach that never goes away.

I can assure you that whatever reaction you do or don’t see in no ways means that I am unaffected. This is the worst thing I have gone through in my entire life. It pains me, sickens me, and makes me dislike myself more than I would have ever thought possible. I go through periods of extreme anxiety, mostly with the fear of you leaving me. I want to yell and scream and hit myself for making such selfish and stupid choices. I want to sleep all the time, partly from depression and partly just to make time pass more quickly to move us further away from this awful time. I am hurting worse than I ever have, and the one person I want to lean on and have make me feel better, I can’t, because I have hurt him worse than I am hurting. And that brings me to the worse part: It is so terrible to see you hurting and not be able to comfort you. I want to put my arms around you and hold you and make you feel better, but I can’t. It kills me to have you be unable to look at me, to hear that you don’t even know if you love me, to have you physically move away from me if I get within reaching distance of you. I want to have the familiarity back where I can lean on you while we talk about our day or have you hug me and kiss me goodbye when you go to work in the morning –though at this point, it would be nice for you to actually even tell me goodbye when you leave for work. I hate myself for the damage I have caused our relationship and the pain that I have caused you. It is my biggest regret –though I have a lot at this point.


----------



## B1

prayers coming your way bobka. So sorry you are struggling with depression, I know that struggle also. Not much more I can say that cm and dig haven't already said. 

I am with them in that you need to share this problem with her, I know it's scary and your afraid to tell her but I believe it's best to get it out there. Let her help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

ChangingMe,

Thanks so much for your willingness to share that letter. It is scary how accurately that mimics my wife's exact situation in the initial weeks and months after DDay. I was frustrated that she didn't seem as devastated as me. I was surprised that she wasn't reaching out more to me for support, to support me etc.

And when I finally came out to her about these feelings, she said almost the EXACT same thing. That she didn't feel she had the right to ask of that of me, and didn't know if I would let her support me/help me. And she was terrified it would push me further away etc. So she suffered on largely in silence for the first couple of months.

Thanks again for sharing, comforting to see that this is a more common feeling in the early stages of R. Will show this to my wife tonight. Good stuff!


----------



## SomedayDig

Pffft....CM took that exact email from my wife Regret....



Just kidding, of course. However, it IS startling how alike you two are as shown in that email. You can read some of her posts and probably see the similiarities. It's spooky.


----------



## Omegaa

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> I struggle A LOT with focusing on the past, asking hurtful questions etc.
> 
> That's exactly when the b1tchy side of R shows up! It took me a long time to start to see the pattern and predict when a "life is good" trigger was about to go on.
> 
> I mean things were rolling right along for us, and we felt connected and good about things.
> 
> I told her that it scared the hell out of me that she was capable of that.
> 
> In hindsight, I see that I was trying to hurt her. Trying to force both of us back into the pain. Trying to make sure "we wouldn't forget". I have always been scared of things just going back to normal, since that complacency lead to some of the issues we had in our marriage.
> 
> But I realized that this latest set back was all my doing. Nothing had changed with us. No new deception. No new information about previous betrayals. THE ONLY THING THAT HAD CHANGED WAS MY DESIRE TO RELIVE THE PAIN AND FORCE IT ON HER.
> 
> And then I asked myself what I was accomplishing with this? Did I really want to walk away from the R? Nope. Was it somehow helping me heal? Nope. Was it somehow helping her in her journey to be a better person? Nope.


Hi 

To be honest, you are being hard on yourself. Your analysis sounds remarkably educated and impressive. You must have thought hard about the situation...the cycle of peace & love descending into another bust up...It sounds Oh SO FAMILIAR!! 

Anyone who went through what you had been through, I should think it is hardly a surprise if you had to tell her how much upset her lies and her behaviour had caused you. In particular, it had been a long-term thing...

I doubt if you had to "hurt" her...you were hurt and you wanted her to know. I should think, confronting / talking about what happened etc would be definitely part of healing to my mind. 

I have gone through a similar pattern. I still do love my guy no matter what. He loves me. 

But I'm not sure if there's any "end" to this "*****" in R you call it resurfacing. Long-term "double-life" your wife was running behind your back, has its consequences. Affairs can be so brutal..it cuts you as if you were sliced up by a sharp knife.

I'm arranging to move out before my wh goes home to his Mother's place for Christmas for a couple of weeks. At least things are moving on for me. 

Best of luck


----------



## CantSitStill

Bobka? How long were you in MC? I thought her affair was just recent, I'm sorry I may be wrong or have you confused with someone else. Anyway also wanna thank you for your prayers for us and yes I will definately pray for ya 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

SomedayDig said:


> Today is exactly 9 months to the date of Dday. Yesterday was a pretty tough day for Regret and I. A setback would have occurred if we each hadn't gone to our IC and later on in the evening talked about our feelings and what lead us to our dark place yesterday. Both of us were there. However, IMO a setback did NOT happen _because_ each of us were able to express what was going on deep within ourselves. Coupled with empathy toward each other, we hugged tightly.


Dig, congrats on 9 months post DDay. I feel like every month is a milestone & something to be proud of -plus it's one month further away from DDay, which to me is something to celebrate. 

I am sorry that yesterday was difficult for you and Regret, but I am very glad to hear that you and she were able to communicate and lean on each other to move past it and not let it consume you. I think that is a sure sign of the progress you both have made.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> Prayers sent, bobka.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I do want to caution you on one issue. That your MC thinks you're in good enough shape to take time away from counseling..._however_ in the next paragraph you talk about your struggle with depression. God knows I know that struggle all too well. Yet, if you haven't expressed that to your wife or your MC are you doing yourself a disservice?
> 
> Counselor is aware of my bipolar issues, but it has not been the focus of counseling. Very small part. We've really kind of compartmentalized that. Maybe not such a good idea...
> 
> By your own admission, you are in "bad shape" and "covering it up". That in and of itself constitutes a backslide IF you don't share where you are out of fear of a setback. Trust me...none of us want a setback as we progress.
> 
> Today is exactly 9 months to the date of Dday. Yesterday was a pretty tough day for Regret and I. A setback would have occurred if we each hadn't gone to our IC and later on in the evening talked about our feelings and what lead us to our dark place yesterday. Both of us were there. However, IMO a setback did NOT happen _because_ each of us were able to express what was going on deep within ourselves. Coupled with empathy toward each other, we hugged tightly.
> 
> IF you feel like you're "falling apart"...even if it's just a little bit, I think it's okay to admit that. Heck! I think you should admit that. Not just for yourself, but for your wife to SEE with her own two eyes that you struggle daily with this stuff.
> 
> But everyone on TAM berated me for not being more Alpha, not being the strong, confident me, and I bought that, hook, line and sinker. And I think it's been helping. Does she want to fight to the death for a marriage with a sick person? Yeah, I know it's in the marriage vows, and she is aware of it, too. And was aware of my bipolar when we got married, so it's no new surprise.
> 
> I just, at this time, feel it would be detrimental for me to appear to be personally struggling. Although I'm sure she sees clues of it in my everyday attitudes and actions. I'm willing to talk more about this.
> 
> It's not easy. No one said it was gonna be. It is the toughest fight in your life! It is said that infidelity is more difficult than losing a child. Don't take anything that is going on during your reconciliation lightly. Especially, when it comes to your feelings.
> 
> Not taking any of it lightly. I'm so glad things are going as well as they are. Thanks for your encourgement.
> 
> Peace.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

old timer said:


> *bobka*, I agree w/ *Dig*.
> 
> Considering your feelings, would IC maybe be appropriate for you? Do you and your W use the same person for IC as MC?


I am in IC, have been for years. She's not, won't be going. She has no insurance. We'd not be in MC if it weren't free through our church. Thank God (yeah, I get it) our pastor is VERY qualified to do MC.


----------



## CantSitStill

Bobka if you hold those feelings in then comes the resentment later. I've learned that the hard way. Also Calvin held in his triggering for 3 days from me..I knew something was wrong, kept pressing him to tell me and sure enough I was right. He let it all out yesterday. Your wife may already know when you think she doesn't when you are struggling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

ChangingMe said:


> Many prayers to you and your wife, bobka.
> 
> So don't hide from your wife, bobka. Take care of yourself, but allow her to try to take care of you as well. You admitting to what you're experiencing will not be a setback, even if it feels that way at first. If you truly want to heal your marriage, then you need to be honest in all things. Otherwise, it will seem like you're moving forward, but you really won't be, because there will be things you are suppressing. Deal with it now, so you can heal and move forward.
> 
> Good luck, bobka. Take care.


I so very much appreciate this, especially coming from you, what with you being in the field and all. I just though that staying strong and appearing strong was the best thing to do at the moment. And there's a bit of "fake it 'til you make it" going on, too. Perhaps if I don't let myself go to the depths outwardly, I won't go there inwardly.

We live in a small, country town where the overall intellectual level is, well, not what you'd find in a city. People don't understand "invisible" illnesses and such. They are in denial about that kind of stuff, even though some of them suffer from anxiety and depression (I'm speaking mostly of my wife's family now, who surround us). So for me to, say, go to the hospital for a 72-hour hold or whatever would just seem so odd to them - they just don't get it. I'm just working to manage this on my own. And my psychologist I do see regularly, God bless him, isn't too effective for me. I have very few choices, well, one choice, in this town.

This is why I lean so heavily on my online interaction, and yeah, I know that's only worht so much, but it's worth a lot to me, so I make the most of it. 

Anyhow, I will take your suggestions into consideration, and work on me the best I can. I really have to ruminate about how much I want my wife to know about my struggles. She knows this is long-term, and has seen me struggle before. I just don't feel comfortable reminding her that the man she's working so hard to reconcile with is so damaged. Thank goodness OM is damaged goods, too.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

CantSitStill said:


> Bobka? How long were you in MC? I thought her affair was just recent, I'm sorry I may be wrong or have you confused with someone else. Anyway also wanna thank you for your prayers for us and yes I will definately pray for ya
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We've seen him together 4 times, WW once on her own, and me, 3 times while she was gone. I am currently in IC and have been for a long time due to my bipolar disorder.

Thanks for your prayers!


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## calvin

bobka said:


> We've seen him together 4 times, WW once on her own, and me, 3 times while she was gone. I am currently in IC and have been for a long time due to my bipolar disorder.
> 
> Thanks for your prayers!


Hang in there bobka,youre a good dude.
Small town huh? Man I 'd love to go back to Utica Ky. Small farming town,I love it there,hate Chicago,except for my Bears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

CantSitStill said:


> Bobka if you hold those feelings in then comes the resentment later. I've learned that the hard way. Also Calvin held in his triggering for 3 days from me..I knew something was wrong, kept pressing him to tell me and sure enough I was right. He let it all out yesterday. Your wife may already know when you think she doesn't when you are struggling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The feelings I'm holding in are not stuff about the affair, but just my inner turmoil, this PTSD-feeling I've got, this lack of motivation, this wanting to sleep all the time. It's not affair-related. It's affair-_triggered_, but not related as such.

Thanks CSS, and all of you, for caring so much.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Hang in there bobka,youre a good dude.
> Small town huh? Man I 'd love to go back to Utica Ky. Small farming town,I love it there,hate Chicago,except for my Bears.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Problem with this particular small town is racism. I cannot handle it, and when I want to say something about it, my wife says I should keep it chill. Hard to do when it's so rampant here, and so just plain wrong.

Yeah, we're white.


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## calvin

bobka said:


> Problem with this particular small town is racism. I cannot handle it, and when I want to say something about it, my wife says I should keep it chill. Hard to do when it's so rampant here, and so just plain wrong.
> 
> Yeah, we're white.


When I was a scaffold builder one of my best friends Luther was black,he has past away but all his buddies would attack me,I fought back.
I was finally welcomed in and hung out with those guys for years,they even took me to the "black" bars.
I'd be the only ****** in a club of 200- 300 people.
They all thought I was a cop or nuts,lol.
Had some good times with those guys,most of them have taken a dirt nap know tho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

bobka said:


> The feelings I'm holding in are not stuff about the affair, but just my inner turmoil, this PTSD-feeling I've got, this lack of motivation, this wanting to sleep all the time. It's not affair-related. It's affair-_triggered_, but not related as such.


You know better than I about what your feelings are related to, but this sounds like it is indeed affair-related. The things you mention sound very much like depression symptoms as well as PTSD symptoms. I get where the bipolar adds an extra element, but I don't think that you can separate your depression right now from the affair. And affair-triggered emotions are still affair related, IMO. 

Have you heard or read anything about Post Infidelity Stress Disorder? It's not an actual DSM diagnosis or anything, but from what I've read, it makes a lot of sense, and I can totally see where DD has some PTSD responses from my A. I think many of the other BSs will attest to this too. 

I wanted to get DD this book, but he is not a reader. It might be worth it for you to check it out though: Transcending Post-infidelity Stress Disorder (PISD): The Six Stages of Healing: Dennis C. Ortman: 9781587613340: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> I was thinking more on margrace's and Omegaa's comments about their H's not wanting to talk or react, and I went back and found an email I sent DD in July, about 5 weeks past DDay, when he commented that I didn't seem upset enough....


oh my, CM, your email sounds like the little bit that my H has been trying to convey to me... thank you for being such a wonderful and generous interpreter!


----------



## joe kidd

I personally am having the best string of days I have had in 2 yrs. 

Well, should say string of weeks. 

Calvin....I am one the most hardheaded , grudge carrying a$$holes that ever walked the earth. Just saying if it can get better for me, it can get better for anyone. 

As I said before, we have wives who are truly sorry ( couldn't have rugswept this, wouldn't have stayed if no remorse was shown). My thought is if she is willing to be the wife I want and need I will take her at her word.


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## calvin

pidge70 said:


> I love you Joe!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too! Quit PMing me so much you horndog!
Seriously,this crap almost killed me,even without the other sh!t going on in my life.
At first since it wasnt physical I thought yeah I'm pissed but I'll get over it.
I was wrong but it is getting better,CSS really is true in her feelings for me.
Its nice to be appreciated,loved,be thanked and for her to treat me like a peace of meat. 
It really tore me up bad,I know its getting better,my guard is down,trust is up.
It takes awhile to get through this and I know we will.
I'm also more thankful and a better person and husband.I really do need her in my life.
I love you jo.......errrr CSS!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

bobka said:


> ...I just though that staying strong and appearing strong was the best thing to do at the moment. And there's a bit of "fake it 'til you make it" going on, too. Perhaps if I don't let myself go to the depths outwardly, I won't go there inwardly.
> 
> We live in a small, country town where the overall intellectual level is, well, not what you'd find in a city. People don't understand "invisible" illnesses and such. They are in denial about that kind of stuff, even though some of them suffer from anxiety and depression (I'm speaking mostly of my wife's family now, who surround us). So for me to, say, go to the hospital for a 72-hour hold or whatever would just seem so odd to them - they just don't get it. I'm just working to manage this on my own. And my psychologist I do see regularly, God bless him, isn't too effective for me. I have very few choices, well, one choice, in this town.
> 
> ... I really have to ruminate about how much I want my wife to know about my struggles. She knows this is long-term, and has seen me struggle before. I just don't feel comfortable reminding her that the man she's working so hard to reconcile with is so damaged. Thank goodness OM is damaged goods, too.


bobka, i think i want to add my support to all those who are encouraging you to consider sharing some of your struggles with your wife.

it definitely sounds like the right thing to do and i trust the advice that you are getting here. the reason that i say "i think" is that i want to be honest about hard that would be for me to do right now. 

the only point at which i began to feel the ground under my feet again is when i decided to withdraw a bit from my H in a constructive way. i had previously been immersed in my heartbrokenness about his A and our marriage, but then i started just focusing on putting my life back together on my own.... and that has saved me. 

it has also left me a little scared of letting him back in completely and/or sharing my feelings with him with 100% honesty. that feels very dangerous to me. i've only been on my feet like this for a few weeks now and i'm so relieved and grateful to have some sanity again. 

you know, i look back on those 7 months and i can barely remember any details of being alive. it's like remembering a fever state... or i can sort of conjure up a blurry picture of myself crying but not much more than that.

anyway, a return to an open, honest connection absolutely has to happen for R, eventually -- i do understand that and i believe that and i look forward to the day when i'm ready for it.

p.s., i live in the city now but i'm from a tiny town like yours, too... everything you're saying sounds so familiar to me


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> You know better than I about what your feelings are related to, but this sounds like it is indeed affair-related. The things you mention sound very much like depression symptoms as well as PTSD symptoms. I get where the bipolar adds an extra element, but I don't think that you can separate your depression right now from the affair. And affair-triggered emotions are still affair related, IMO.
> 
> Have you heard or read anything about Post Infidelity Stress Disorder? It's not an actual DSM diagnosis or anything, but from what I've read, it makes a lot of sense, and I can totally see where DD has some PTSD responses from my A. I think many of the other BSs will attest to this too.
> 
> I wanted to get DD this book, but he is not a reader. It might be worth it for you to check it out though: Transcending Post-infidelity Stress Disorder (PISD): The Six Stages of Healing: Dennis C. Ortman: 9781587613340: Amazon.com: Books


Totally agree!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Let it out bobka
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Okay, so I'm sitting in my downstairs office last night before my gig, and my wife comes down to see me. She says, "honey, I really want you to know that I'm all-in. Really want you to know that." So I figured the time is right. 

I tell her, "I've got to let you know that I am struggling about as hard as I ever have now, due to this depression that's been triggered by what you did (I didn't really play it that strong). I'm spinning my wheels, killing time, dreading everything, even dreading seeing our kids for the holidays, and don't know when or how I can pull out of this."

She immediately went into problem-solving mode; see my psychiatrist, go to the hospital, what can she do to help, etc.

I'm finding that I don't even know what I want to do about this. I've been on every med there is, been to many psychologists, worked on myself and researched as much as I possibly can. Sometimes, just like this affair stuff, it just takes time, and right now, I feel like time is what I need. It's the holidays, we're ramping up to open another thrift store, the weather has turned sh1tty, so much all at once. Can't I just go to bed and wake up sometime later when everything has stabilized? Of course I know that can't be, but that's what I want right now. 

Another bad sign: I felt like I'm burdening you guys here with my psycho problems, and joined a bipolar forum, hoping I could get some support there. Well, with my first comment, some people there ripped me a new azzhole, and didn't really welcome me in. So disappointing...

Sorry for all this. I'll try and keep it to Reconciliation.


----------



## SomedayDig

Pffft...don't go to a bipolar forum. They're nuts. 

Bobka, I'd like for you to do one thing for me. Go look in the mirror. Take a deep breath...

...and be okay with not knowing what you want to do right now.

See, dude...it's not about the kids or the holidays or the shrinks or the hospitals. It's about the fact that you got hurt severely. You hurt. There is NO medication that is going to fix you. You will fix you.

Take a day alone. Get a notebook. Write your feelings. Everything. Don't be scared of what might come out. Write your feelings. All of them. Good, bad AND ugly stuff that you don't want anyone to know about.

Then, read Job.

I know this is tough. I'm right there as are many others on this forum AND this thread. You're not burdening a one of us.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Dude, don't be sorry. We are all here to act as a support group for each other. Think band of brothers, we don't leave anyone behind!!!!

I think it's great that you told your wife how you were feeling, and I think her response shows she is eager to help stop your pain and suffering. She may not have said or done the exact thing you were hoping for, but come on, that's never gonna happen. 

The point is this, SHE'S ALL IN! Focus on that! Think of how much of a change that is from your initial starting point. That is HUGE! Turn in towards her, and she to you. There is nothing you guys can't face if you are facing it together. 

Focus on the here and now, the moment you are in. Problems become bigger and more overwhelming when we look too far down the road. A day at a time, he11, even an hour at a time if you need to. You have a wife that loves you and wants to heal you. You have friends here who want the same. Those are some awesome tools, so don't hesitate to use them! 

I think this was a giant step and major progress bobka. Don't skip past that. Relish in the moment and what you DO have.


----------



## margrace

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Dude, don't be sorry. We are all here to act as a support group for each other. Think band of brothers, we don't leave anyone behind!!!!
> 
> I think it's great that you told your wife how you were feeling, and I think her response shows she is eager to help stop your pain and suffering. She may not have said or done the exact thing you were hoping for, but come on, that's never gonna happen.
> 
> The point is this, SHE'S ALL IN! Focus on that! Think of how much of a change that is from your initial starting point. That is HUGE! Turn in towards her, and she to you. There is nothing you guys can't face if you are facing it together.
> 
> Focus on the here and now, the moment you are in. Problems become bigger and more overwhelming when we look too far down the road. A day at a time, he11, even an hour at a time if you need to. You have a wife that loves you and wants to heal you. You have friends here who want the same. Those are some awesome tools, so don't hesitate to use them!
> 
> I think this was a giant step and major progress bobka. Don't skip past that. Relish in the moment and what you DO have.


no time to write, bobka dear, but: this and also the response above it!:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## calvin

Sorry bobka,I know where your coming from.
Today I feel like my marriage has all been one big lie,knowing that over the years she would do internet searches for him has me in a pretty dark place.She said it was for closure,I dont belive it.
What if she would have found him 5 or 10 years ago? I think she would have met him then.
Just tired of feeling like this.
Yeah once CSS found him and got to know what a lying loser he was after I dug up his police record and all the companies and people who were garnishing his chek.
Just dont feel good today after I had a few good days.....ugh,it wont go away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> Pffft...don't go to a bipolar forum. They're nuts.
> 
> You are SO right! The forum I found is populated with nut-cases BIG TIME. And not because they're mentally ill - I would never make light of that. It's that they're a bunch of creative crazies who just happen to be bipolar. But they're whacked, that's for sure.
> 
> Bobka, I'd like for you to do one thing for me. Go look in the mirror. Take a deep breath...
> 
> ...and be okay with not knowing what you want to do right now.
> 
> See, dude...it's not about the kids or the holidays or the shrinks or the hospitals. It's about the fact that you got hurt severely. You hurt. There is NO medication that is going to fix you. You will fix you.
> 
> Take a day alone. Get a notebook. Write your feelings. Everything. Don't be scared of what might come out. Write your feelings. All of them. Good, bad AND ugly stuff that you don't want anyone to know about.
> 
> I do write my feelings. Sometimes I write stuff to my wife that I never send. I write stuff here, and PM people very occasionally. Actually, I type out my morning prayers, as that's sort of a journal of what's going on in my life, and my pleas for help from God.
> 
> Then, read Job.
> 
> Funny you should mention that. I've read Job many, many times, and do think of this book when on this forum sometimes, you know, everyone chiming in with their opinions to varying degrees of success. His story is amazing, and I have learned that in the end, it's gonna be alright. It's the time between now and the end of the story that's hardest to deal with.
> 
> It's such a long book, I used to say "it takes the patience of Job to read Job."
> 
> I know this is tough. I'm right there as are many others on this forum AND this thread. You're not burdening a one of us.


Thanks for saying that. You guys are the best.


----------



## SomedayDig

I like that comment Bobka..."It takes the patience of Job to read Job". I'm gonna have to use that sometime in a sermon or something!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Sorry bobka,I know where your coming from.
> Today I feel like my marriage has all been one big lie,knowing that over the years she would do internet searches for him has me in a pretty dark place.She said it was for closure,I dont belive it.
> 
> You know, when I had my EA about 6 years ago, that's what happened with me. Things ended badly for me and my very first love, and I was curious how she was doing, how she made out, and went hunting for her. Looking for closure. Scary that it was so easy to find her. Then I engaged her, and we had a lengthy (maybe 9 months) EA where we would email back and forth many times a day. My wife finally found out, the sh1t hit the fan, and I immediately went no contact. She continued to pursue me, but I was good, and let it go. My wife still resents that this happened, and has not completely let it go. She says she forgave me, but things I see from her tell me that she did not completely forgive.
> 
> When we talk about her affair, mine comes up quite a bit. I know she didn't deliberately enter this recent thing as a revenge affair, but that is what it smells like sometimes. So I would gently warn you that if you cannot let this heal, you may, yourself, go looking for some way to make the pain better, perhaps a revenge affair, and that would be so wrong. I am not calling your character into question; I know what a good guy you are. Just understand that there are dynamics at work that are not always under control.
> 
> What if she would have found him 5 or 10 years ago? I think she would have met him then.
> Just tired of feeling like this.
> 
> Time, Calvin, time. Time is our friend. I have to keep thinking this, or I will wallow and wallow.
> 
> Yeah once CSS found him and got to know what a lying loser he was after I dug up his police record and all the companies and people who were garnishing his chek.
> Just dont feel good today after I had a few good days.....ugh,it wont go away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It will go away, if not completely, enough that you can deal with your life. You have a good woman, you are a strong man of good character, and you have a lot of life ahead of you. Make the most of all of this, let time heal you, talk through it with us when you need to, and, as was suggested to me by SomedayDig, read the book of Job. He went through the worst things imaginable, and when it was all over, he had more than he started with. You can get there.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> I like that comment Bobka..."It takes the patience of Job to read Job". I'm gonna have to use that sometime in a sermon or something!


OMG! You're not a pastor are you?


----------



## calvin

Yes I read the book of job,actually read the Bible cover to cover.
If I remember right he got back two fold of everything he lost.
One hell of a bet God and the devil made on Job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> Okay, so I'm sitting in my downstairs office last night before my gig, and my wife comes down to see me. She says, "honey, I really want you to know that I'm all-in. Really want you to know that." So I figured the time is right.
> 
> I tell her, "I've got to let you know that I am struggling about as hard as I ever have now, due to this depression that's been triggered by what you did (I didn't really play it that strong). I'm spinning my wheels, killing time, dreading everything, even dreading seeing our kids for the holidays, and don't know when or how I can pull out of this."
> 
> She immediately went into problem-solving mode; see my psychiatrist, go to the hospital, what can she do to help, etc.
> 
> I'm finding that I don't even know what I want to do about this. I've been on every med there is, been to many psychologists, worked on myself and researched as much as I possibly can. Sometimes, just like this affair stuff, it just takes time, and right now, I feel like time is what I need. It's the holidays, we're ramping up to open another thrift store, the weather has turned sh1tty, so much all at once. Can't I just go to bed and wake up sometime later when everything has stabilized? Of course I know that can't be, but that's what I want right now.
> 
> Another bad sign: I felt like I'm burdening you guys here with my psycho problems, and joined a bipolar forum, hoping I could get some support there. Well, with my first comment, some people there ripped me a new azzhole, and didn't really welcome me in. So disappointing...
> 
> Sorry for all this. I'll try and keep it to Reconciliation.


I think Dig has a valid point. You have been hurt bobka, even if you were not suffering from depression before, you probably would be now. It's something you have to work through day by day. You were betrayed by your wife, that's NEVER expected, it's a shock to your system, an emotional jolt to your very core. It does zap you of motivation, drive, and life for a while.


Like I said a few days ago, I am just now starting to get motivation and energy back, I have actually gone out by myself x-mas shopping and have been wanting to get out more. I am a little over 6 months past dday, so it has taken that long.


This betrayel really does a number on us, I am still trying to figure out why. What exactly does this do to us that zaps our
motivation, energy, and life. Why can't we just let it go and move forward in a short amount of time, why do we obsess about it, re-evaluate details, go over and over things already said? I am getting much better at handeling these issues but it took time. I still go over things in my head about the A, I just don't always bring it up anymore, no need. I evaluate now, why I am doing it, will it help her\us if I bring it up etc. To me, that's a step in the right direction. 

Hang in there bobka, I don't have to tell you this but lean on God and you can also lean on us. We are not growing tired of you at all. We feel for you, and I am sure I speak for everyone here, we wish we could have the magic words that would make everything ok instantly. Unfortunately, it's going to take time, that's the key, and hanging in there while things fall back into place. Your wife is ALL in that's one heck of a good start and that's some great news too. She also was quick to offer help and be there for you, she loves you bobka lean on her too.


I do want to throw one thing out there about meds. I tried them all also, it wasn't until they added abilify to my existing anti depressant that I got relief, it was a miracle drug to me. Just wondering if you have tried that?. I am sure you already know that remeron and wellbutrin are the two recommended with the lease amount of libido side effects. btw: It's remeron and abilify for me. 

Also, try 1000mg of Omega 3 fish oil. That's helped with my mood and depression also. It took about 2 weeks to kick in


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Yes I read the book of job,actually read the Bible cover to cover.
> If I remember right he got back two fold of everything he lost.
> One hell of a bet God and the devil made on Job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess what I was suggesting is that you read it _again._


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> I do want to throw one thing out there about meds. I tried them all also, it wasn't until they added abilify to my existing anti depressant that I got relief, it was a miracle drug to me. Just wondering if you have tried that?. I am sure you already know that remeron and wellbutrin are the two recommended with the lease amount of libido side effects. btw: It's remeron and abilify for me.
> 
> Also, try 1000mg of Omega 3 fish oil. That's helped with my mood and depression also. It took about 2 weeks to kick in


Well, I would PM you about this, but I can't PM right now, so I'll just say: I've had this diagnosis for 20 years, and have tried just about every drug available. Some work for a time, some have side-effects that are unnaceptable, and now, some are so expensive that I can't possibly afford them. I need to see my psychiatrist, but he's an hour and a half away, and I'm having anxiety about driving (another great new symptom!). 

Abilify caused me to have akathisia, which is restless leg syndrome, but I had it worse - could not sit in one place for more than about 5 minutes at a time. So that was an unacceptable side-effect.

I know that something has got to change, but I also know that time, as we all have said, will make things better. It's just the time while biding my time that is maddening. 

Wife asked me first thing this morning how I was doing, and told me how badly she feels that I am in this shape. Thank God she is so all-in. I now see that my revealing my present condition to her may be helpful.

When I think of all the advice I have gotten here from you guys, I think it's amazing what a support we all are to each other. Thanks so much, again!


----------



## SomedayDig

bobka said:


> OMG! You're not a pastor are you?


I did not go through seminary, no. However, I am ordained with a true passion to want to help people. I have a ministry, however I do not preach. I ride with a pretty large Motorcycle Club and I am their Chaplain. I wear that tag proudly and simply mingle with hundreds of people. When someone notices the tag and they need to talk. I make myself available. I let them know we are not alone.

The best advice, which I shared with B1 this summer was with a couple who was dealing with infidelity. I know...here I am dealing with this and I have this couple come to me seeking counsel. Anyway, they both talked about what happened and their pasts...a lot. On the spot and since we all ride, I said "Can you go straight down the road if you continuously look in your rear view mirror? It's okay to glance at it every now and then to see what might be behind you. Yet, don't take your eyes fully off the road before you."

I think it's about time for me to take my own advice.


----------



## Acabado

Be sure she knows you apreciate she's concerned and "all in". It's huge, man. Just remember how things were just a months ago.

Man hugs bobka! Hang in there.

Maybe the amount of PMs has risen above the limit. Try deleting the older ones. At the bottom of the page are the options. Mark them and then click delete.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Morning everyone.
bobka- I hope you are feeling a little better today. I have been prone to bouts of depression in my life but have always been able to ride it out. Only had to have medication on 2 occasions. A friend of mine is struggling in a similar way to you at the moment. Dealing with the fallout of infidelity and trying to cope with everyday life if a huge thing. She has just shut down. I think time is a great healer in all things. Listen to what your body is telling you and be kind to yourself. 

I just wanted to share something with you all.
When H and I first started our journey into R I had an overwhelming fear. A fear that I wasn't enough for him. A fear that I didn't know who I was supposed to be, because, hey, I obviously was t good enough, why else would he have cheated. During his A fog H said I was controlling, miserable, moody, it hurt me. These thoughts were playing on my mind. We discussed it one day. I told him I was scared, didn't know who I was supposed to be, how to be. 

He replied - my love I'm so sorry I've made you feel this way. This was never about you, this is all on me. Please don't change, be the person you have always been. I love you.

I'm glad we had that conversation!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

daisygirl, sounds like your in a real good place, that's so nice to hear.

Bobka, I hope today is a better day for you.

It's going to be another busy day for us finishing up decorations around the house. Also, I'm taking x-mas pix for my daughter and her family today and I have to work some too.

btw:I created an album with some of my work if anyone cares to see it.


----------



## jh52

Hi B1 --- have a fun and a great Saturday/Weekend.

Nice photos in the album -- see why EI brags about you !!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Really like your pics, B1! You are a talented guy. Is that what you do for a living?


----------



## B1

bobka said:


> Really like your pics, B1! You are a talented guy. Is that what you do for a living?


Thanks bobka, photography is just a hobby\side thing. I do an occasional wedding and still shoot some seniors portraits also but it's not the main source of income. I'm in IT, that's what pays the bills.


----------



## calvin

Good stuff B1,
Would you be interested in drawing me in the nude? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

calvin said:


> Good stuff B1,
> Would you be interested in drawing me in the nude?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To funny calvin...I can't draw buddy. But hey, if you send me a pic I can use photoshop to make a sketch out of it. But be warned, with photoshop I can make certain things much much smaller


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> To funny calvin...I can't draw buddy. But hey, if you send me a pic I can use photoshop to make a sketch out of it. But be warned, with photoshop I can make certain things much much smaller


Hey!!! Great,there goes my self esteem,gonna take CSS all day to build it back up,sniff,sniff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Good morning all.

Hope everyone has a great Sunday!


----------



## ChangingMe

Haven't been around too much the past few days, and I _have_ to finish a grant I am writing & have that submitted by Friday, so I am going to have to force myself to stay off TAM this week so I'm actually productive at work. (I'm writing a grant to get us furniture and equipment for our new offices. We should move around the start of the year -CANNOT WAIT to get out of the old office; it's a trigger for both DD and me.)

Anyway, since I have a minute this morning, I wanted to catch up on a few posts. 

Bobka, I am sorry you are going through such a rough time. I'm glad you told your wife, and I am even happier about her response. That reassurance must feel good. I agree with others that there is nothing off limits here -share away. Your bipolar and depression are a part of you, and it affects how you react to R and the A in general, so please don't think you're bothering anyone. You are also welcomed to PM me if it would help. I've worked quite a bit with bipolor, and while of course I can't counsel you on here or anything, I am willing to help if I can. I'm sorry your options are so limited where you are, and I hope today is a bit brighter of a day. 

Calvin, I know you are very up and down, and if I can, I would try to encourage you to try to keep focused on today. Your post on the 7th about you being upset about her looking him up years ago and 'what if she had found him then?' really aren't going to help anything today. Today she knows she doesn't want him, and the fact is she didn't find him years ago, so those what ifs aren't going to help you in any way. I'm not saying you don't have a right to get upset, but I'm saying that I don't see that line of thought benefiting anyone, least of all you. Take care of yourself, calvin, and don't let your mind beat you up more than you have to. (Easier said than done, I know . . . )

B1, I think your line "I evaluate now, why I am doing it, will it help her\us if I bring it up etc." is such a sign of healing. To me, that shows that you have taken control of your thoughts, and you really are coming at this R with the two of you in mind. I think you and EI are so lucky to have each other. Oh, and your pictures are beautiful!

Daisygirl, I am so enjoying reading your posts! I am so glad you and your H had that conversation yesterday, and I love your forgiveness thread. I am so glad you (and your H) are in such a good place.

Everyone else, I hope you all have a great day! DD and I are in a very good place. Had MC on Friday night, which went great. I have such a fear of DD coming off his Zoloft in the future and once again bottoming out and wanting to be done with me. We spent the session on how to build the relationship now and have patterns in place so that when he does wean off, that doesn't happen. I know I'll still be scared, but I do see DD really wanting to have us work and putting forth the effort to ensure that it does. I really am so, so blessed to have him.


----------



## calvin

Thanks CM,I did fb msg one of her friends who condoned the affair at the begining to stay away from now on,CSS couldnt bring herself to do it,yes twords the end of the A she told her that something was wrong with him,she should have done this from the git go.
Another friend of CSS did give her a lot of crap about what CSS was doing.
I thought the other "friend" was mine also,anyone who goes along with a family being tore apart is no friend of mine,I feel I did the right thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

CM, thank you, Yes, I feel I have turned a corner, again. I want happiness for me and EI more than I want answers now. I so want her to be happy and healthy, of course I want to be happy also and I am finding that happiness now. 

For whatever reason I am not obsessing near as much over issues. There have been some profound post lately and a profound PM I got from someone on here that really hit home. 

So, to anyone on here, if you have something to say to someone on here please don't hold back. You never know, it could really help them get over something, through something, or help them see things in a different light.

Yes, what EI did was wrong and hurtful, it cut to the core. But..I have been torturing her with words for months, cutting her to the core. I can't expect a happy healthy marriage in these conditions. Ultimately, I had to ask, what do I want?

That was easy, it's EI. And I want her happy and healthy and married to me. I want to be happy and I am realizing I can have that with her if I back off. Some would say, well she deserves it for what she did. Maybe so, but again, what I want is happiness with EI, NOT a life of hurting her with words, what kind of life would that be? What kind of husband would I be if I just wanted to hurt her all the time? that's NOT what I want, that's not the life I want and it certainly isn't the life EI wants.

Oddly, hurting her now wasn't that intentional, it was my hurt and pain that was driving that boat. Hurt was causing me to ask painful questions, to drum up hurtful thoughts and memories again and again. I had to realize that my hurt and pain was a little out of control and when out of control it hurts everyone. I had to get some control over it so it wouldn't control me and potential ruin our marriage. Because, remember what I want is EI and happiness! 

Now, will I always have control, of course not, I will loose that battle from time to time, but as of now, I am winning it more than loosing it. I think I am learning to let go, to accept.

I love you EI!


----------



## Acabado

Good stuff, great album B1
Now this last post is a hell of post. Really great. You are doing so great man... I just could dream about having such outlook so soon after DDay. Do you realize you are making it? Not trying, not waiting for it, not hoping for it. It's happening.
I keep learning you from all you guys.
Thanks again.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Had a gig last night in the medium-sized town about 30 miles away from here, where I do most of my gigs. The road from my little town to there is a lonely, two-lane highway, and I typically traverse it coming home at 2:30 a.m., after gigs. Well, last night, we had a blizzard, and the roads were impassible. Had to spend the night at the band leader's house in a spare room. It was lonely without my wife, and just weird sleeping in a strange bed. 

Thinking conditions would be better, I set off for the 30-mile ride home this morning, to find that roads weren't very well plowed, and conditions were windy (blowing snow) and only moderate visibility. White-knuckles all the way home. 

It's tough getting used to driving in snow and ice, when I grew up in Southern California, and didn't have any of that to deal with. Just traffic and drive-by shootings... Yeah, I've been here 16 years now, but if you didn't grow up and learn to drive in the snow, you're definitely at a disadvantage.

Hope you all have a great Sunday. I'm safe at home now.


----------



## calvin

Well for the first time since D-day I was able to hold CSS and cry,been holding it in for ten months.
I know when she said I was unmanly for crying awhile ago that wasnt her,she was trying to justify her A.
It felt good to finally let it out.
I really do believe I had a breakthrough...finally
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Calvin.

That's awesome.


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Well for the first time since D-day I was able to hold CSS and cry,been holding it in for ten months.
> I know when she said I was unmanly for crying awhile ago that wasnt her,she was trying to justify her A.
> It felt good to finally let it out.
> I really do believe I had a breakthrough...finally
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Calvin, *This makes me cry happy tears for you and CSS....

I'm headed to Frazier Rehab Center this morning with our special needs son to begin having modifications done on his wheelchair in preparation for his next surgery.

Hopefully, I will have some time to post later today...... I've been very busy, but I have also been spending some time in quiet reflection these last couple of weeks.... that's never been my way of handling my emotions..... I thought that, perhaps, it was time to handle things a bit differently than I had in the past. I'm finding an inner peace than I haven't felt in many, many years. Certainly not at this stage in my adult life. 

I do keep up with this thread and though I haven't commented in a week or so I think of you all each day.

*bobka*, I know that you've been struggling and I've kept you in my prayers. I hope this week is better for you.

B1, I love you. This weekend was so simple, yet so blissful. Spending time with our children.... all grown up, all in one piece, all kind, decent, moral, hardworking and God fearing, gives me hope that in this midst of all of this chaos that we did something right. It's probably been a long time since I've thanked you for allowing me to have my dream of being a stay-at-home Mom for all of these years. I know that I used to thank you for that all of the time. Thank you for that.... and for so many others small mercies along the way. You really are my hero and I love you with every ounce of my being....... 

So, anyway, B1 took some beautiful pictures this weekend and I will try to get them in an album later and post them.

I hope everyone has a wonderful and productive Monday.

Take care,
EI


----------



## Almostrecovered

SomedayDig said:


> Pffft...don't go to a bipolar forum. They're nuts.


could you imagine a whole forum of people like me?


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> *Calvin, *This makes me cry happy tears for you and CSS....
> 
> I'm headed to Frazier Rehab Center this morning with our special needs son to begin having modifications done on his wheelchair in preparation for his next surgery.
> 
> Hopefully, I will have some time to post later today...... I've been very busy, but I have also been spending some time in quiet reflection these last couple of weeks.... that's never been my way of handling my emotions..... I thought that, perhaps, it was time to handle things a bit differently than I had in the past. I'm finding an inner peace than I haven't felt in many, many years. Certainly not at this stage in my adult life.
> 
> I do keep up with this thread and though I haven't commented in a week or so I think of you all each day.
> 
> *bobka*, I know that you've been struggling and I've kept you in my prayers. I hope this week is better for you.
> 
> B1, I love you. This weekend was so simple, yet so blissful. Spending time with our children.... all grown up, all in one piece, all kind, decent, moral, hardworking and God fearing, gives me hope that in this midst of all of this chaos that we did something right. It's probably been a long time since I've thanked you for allowing me to have my dream of being a stay-at-home Mom for all of these years. I know that I used to thank you for that all of the time. Thank you for that.... and for so many others small mercies along the way. You really are my hero and I love you with every ounce of my being.......
> 
> So, anyway, B1 took some beautiful pictures this weekend and I will try to get them in an album later and post them.
> 
> I hope everyone has a wonderful and productive Monday.
> 
> Take care,
> EI


Praying for you and B1 and the fam.
Everyone else on this thread also
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Well, Calvin, there are some of us who need those prayers more than others, I'm thinking. 
I have returned from my hiatus, with a better appreciation of the rules of conduct for TAM and have decided to leave Brad and our joint itinerary, alone.
Having said that, I have had a productive and important couple of weeks.
I decided that whatever happened between my ex wife and I, I still needed to address the pressure and interference that I have been receiving from family and friends. I had a series of "come to Jesus", meetings with all concerned, and was able to clear the air, so that we could enjoy the Holidays, without a lot of Drama.
I talked with her family first and took her parents and sisters out for dinner. We had a great time, and I was able to show my deep regard for them, but made clear that I was not going to rush into any reconciliation, before I was ready to do so. They agreed that I had the right to demand that my ex should prove herself, but pointed out all of the progress she has already made , in that regard.
My family was a lot easier to deal with. I simply told them to leave us the f**k alone for now and we would figure out what we wanted , by ourselves. LOL (Of course I didn't say it in exactly those words) or Mom would have pulled my ear, like she did when I was a kid.
I am still trying to make sure that the kids don't get their hopes up, but kids are kids, and it is hard to get them to understand how I feel, without getting into uncomfortable areas. I have to really watch myself. I don't want them to begin to hope, but I don't want them to believe that there isn't any hope either. It's a fine line, for sure.


----------



## Almostrecovered

well the kids are adults, so I would hope that they can see this for what this is and not project too much


----------



## B1

Breakthroughs...YES, we like those here 

EI and I have definitely had our share over the past 2 weeks. "I want happiness" is my new motto and mantra. Not just for me but for EI also.

I wish I could pinpoint it, I wish I could say for certain what changed over the last 2 weeks, especially the last week, prayers from you all, our prayers, time, realizations, wisdom from others, whatever it is there has been a change in me for the better.

Not obsessing anymore.
Mind movies all but gone
images all but gone
Thoughts about the A still there but subdued.
The hurt isn't as raw and just sitting there waiting to take over.
We talk about other things now too.
Talk about the A has dropped to 15-30 minutes a day at most. We have also gone whole days without talking about it at all.
I don't see myself so much as a victim anymore.
I find my mind is often occupied by things other than the A


Right now,
I worry more about EI and her being happy. She struggles with what she did FAR more then I realized, and she still struggles over the intense pain I caused her for years. I think she still has a hard time believeing in this new me, she's still somewhat guarded. But the shield is coming down slowly. I am 48 years old and this X cold, empty and emotionless man is now full of emotion and this is VERY new to her, and me.

I can't imagine life any other way now, feeling, and sharing those feelings with EI.


----------



## SomedayDig

Sometimes it feels like swimming in the ocean. It's funny how just a mere 20 yards off shore a wave can slam the crap outta ya. Under the water and spinning...not knowing which way is up. Then you finally break through the surface for a gasp of air. Just as you take a breath another wave crashes on your head...but this one is bigger and you are totally out of control under the water...the wave taking you where it wants. And you finally, finally get your head above the surface again. The salty water tastes horrid and your lungs sear with pain. And again...just as you turn around you see an even bigger wave. This time though, waist deep in the water, you plant your feet firmly in the sand and brace yourself for the hit. The wave still takes your feet out from beneath you and throws you into turmoil beneath the surface once again. 

The cycle will continue forever until you decide to just get the f-ck out of the damn ocean.


----------



## calvin

B1,I'm glad to hear this from you,I feel you and EI are going to be fine.
I still do believe the BS's pain is worse than the WS's pain but the WS hurts plenty,I've seen it in CSS's eyes and have heard her sobbing and the tears that trickle down when she is trying to hold it in,she is disgusted with what she did.
We all need to lean on eachother,we can and will come out of this better and stronger.
God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> well the kids are adults, so I would hope that they can see this for what this is and not project too much


 Sometimes Ar, this is easier said than done. This is why I am having to caution them not to expect miracles.


----------



## Rookie4

betrayed1 said:


> Breakthroughs...YES, we like those here
> 
> EI and I have definitely had our share over the past 2 weeks. "I want happiness" is my new motto and mantra. Not just for me but for EI also.
> 
> I wish I could pinpoint it, I wish I could say for certain what changed over the last 2 weeks, especially the last week, prayers from you all, our prayers, time, realizations, wisdom from others, whatever it is there has been a change in me for the better.
> 
> Not obsessing anymore.
> Mind movies all but gone
> images all but gone
> Thoughts about the A still there but subdued.
> The hurt isn't as raw and just sitting there waiting to take over.
> We talk about other things now too.
> Talk about the A has dropped to 15-30 minutes a day at most. We have also gone whole days without talking about it at all.
> I don't see myself so much as a victim anymore.
> I find my mind is often occupied by things other than the A
> 
> 
> Right now,
> I worry more about EI and her being happy. She struggles with what she did FAR more then I realized, and she still struggles over the intense pain I caused her for years. I think she still has a hard time believeing in this new me, she's still somewhat guarded. But the shield is coming down slowly. I am 48 years old and this X cold, empty and emotionless man is now full of emotion and this is VERY new to her, and me.
> 
> I can't imagine life any other way now, feeling, and sharing those feelings with EI.


B1, this is one problem I didn't foresee. My ex is experiencing a LOT of remorse and shame and I'm unsure how it helps or hinders our possible R.


----------



## Rookie4

Since I last posted, we have been spending more time with each other. She invited me to dinner and I returned the favor and we have gone on a couple of dates/shopping trips.
She was blown away that I cooked dinner for her, and I told her that I have been going to cooking classes to learn how NOT to burn water. I must say it was a pretty good meal. Salad, baked stuffed pork loin, ******* taters in garlic an herb sauce and pecan pie for dessert, and ALL HOMEMADE!! by yours truly.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Since I last posted, we have been spending more time with each other. She invited me to dinner and I returned the favor and we have gone on a couple of dates/shopping trips.
> She was blown away that I cooked dinner for her, and I told her that I have been going to cooking classes to learn how NOT to burn water. I must say it was a pretty good meal. Salad, baked stuffed pork loin, ******* taters in garlic an herb sauce and pecan pie for dessert, and ALL HOMEMADE!! by yours truly.


Things sound good so far,glad to hear.
Ok,you got me hungry now,guess you'll have to cook for me! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Calvin, and CSS, It's not an small breakthrough, I'm sure of that, it's really huge and I'm so glad to hear about it. I feel you are going to make it too.

B1, I'm sure you will keep being the rock now that you are now breathing a little better. She's strugling with these huges recurrent waves.

Hi Rookie, glad to hear how to cleared the air with family and ILs. A great move I believe. And happy too to read you are getting to know each other again, or for the first time now you are different persons somehow.


----------



## happyman64

betrayed1 said:


> Breakthroughs...YES, we like those here
> 
> EI and I have definitely had our share over the past 2 weeks. "I want happiness" is my new motto and mantra. Not just for me but for EI also.
> 
> I wish I could pinpoint it, I wish I could say for certain what changed over the last 2 weeks, especially the last week, prayers from you all, our prayers, time, realizations, wisdom from others, whatever it is there has been a change in me for the better.
> 
> Not obsessing anymore.
> Mind movies all but gone
> images all but gone
> Thoughts about the A still there but subdued.
> The hurt isn't as raw and just sitting there waiting to take over.
> We talk about other things now too.
> Talk about the A has dropped to 15-30 minutes a day at most. We have also gone whole days without talking about it at all.
> I don't see myself so much as a victim anymore.
> I find my mind is often occupied by things other than the A
> 
> 
> Right now,
> I worry more about EI and her being happy. She struggles with what she did FAR more then I realized, and she still struggles over the intense pain I caused her for years. I think she still has a hard time believeing in this new me, she's still somewhat guarded. But the shield is coming down slowly. I am 48 years old and this X cold, empty and emotionless man is now full of emotion and this is VERY new to her, and me.
> 
> I can't imagine life any other way now, feeling, and sharing those feelings with EI.





> "I want happiness"


B1

When will you be adding this as a footer to your posts.

Time to update my friend!

HM64


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Since I last posted, we have been spending more time with each other. She invited me to dinner and I returned the favor and we have gone on a couple of dates/shopping trips.
> She was blown away that I cooked dinner for her, and I told her that I have been going to cooking classes to learn how NOT to burn water. I must say it was a pretty good meal. Salad, baked stuffed pork loin, ******* taters in garlic an herb sauce and pecan pie for dessert, and ALL HOMEMADE!! by yours truly.


Nice way to show off your Self Improvement skills Rookie.

Never too old to learn new tricks.

I think I need to remind Mrs. Happy I can cook too!

Thanks for motivating me...


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Some would say, well she deserves it for what she did


I would ask those that said that she deserves what she did; 
have they recieved the full punishment for all that they have done?
They want EI to get what she deserves but not themselves. 
Ever heard of "
" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?[/COLOR]


> Ultimately, I had to ask, what do I want?
> That was easy, it's EI. *And I want her happy and healthy and married to me*. I want to be happy and I am realizing I can have that with her if I back off


*In love there is such a thing as mercy and grace. *
B1 is showing us all what real love is
Those that want to recover TAKE NOTE of B1


----------



## B1

wow Mr B thank you I am truly humbled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Rookie4 said:


> B1, this is one problem I didn't foresee. My ex is experiencing a LOT of remorse and shame and I'm unsure how it helps or hinders our possible R.


In my opinion, and in our situation this is a double edged sword. On one side you want to see some remorse and sadness just to know they are sorry. On the other side they can burry themselves in remorse, self loathing and sadness and it WILL hinder R. 

I got caught up in this for a little while and as you can see in some of my recent posts, that's not what I want. What I want, is a happy, healthy wife not a self loathing and sad one. She, as far as I am concerned, has payed her debt, I forgave her about a month ago, now, as Mr. Blunt put it, I am reaching a new level of forgiveness. 

I no longer require this remorse, sadness etc. from her so I can feel like she's sorry. She has had enough of being reminded of what she did, and on top of that she is devestated about it herself. She thanked me yesterday for loving her, that's nice to hear, but sad too. Because she doesn't feel fully worthy of my love.

We HAVE to get passed that, she deserves love, my love, she deserves to be happy and feel good about herself, I want this more than anything. EI is an amazing woman when she's happy, she can move mountains when she's happy. We now have to overcome remorse and sadness and some self loathing on her part for our R to move forward to the next level.

So, as you can see, A WS's remorse is good for us in the begining to help us heal and to show they are sorry, we do need to know that. But, over time, it can turn bad for your R to continune. EI was in a dark dark place on and off for a while because of this and she's still having a hard time fully accepting my love and forgiveness. If I had kept reminding her of her wrong then how could we ever really move forward?

I think neverhappen2me said it also, he talked about good times then chaos...good times the chaos..you have to get passed that or your walking on egg shells all your life. Dig used the waves in the ocean, slamming you over and over... I just came to a point where enough was enough. No more chaos, I got out of the ocean.
And I have to tell you so far, I have been happier and more at peace then ever before. 

I hope it lasts, I realize we could take a step back here and there but I really think, overall, I am in a better place now. I just hope EI is really there too, she deserves to be there also. 

If your goal is R and a happy mariage there comes a time when enough is enough and you have to stop the reminding and let it go. If you believe they are sorry then accept that and move forward.

Side note:
Now, this doesn't mean you can't talk about it but just stop it with the hurtful questions, and drumming up hurtful events. Stop forcing them to go back and re-live the painful events of the A. 
This is not going to help you or her be happy and healthy. 

anyway, that's my 2 cents worth on the subject. I could explain in more detail, and I feel more detail is needed here but I need to get some work done now.


----------



## SomedayDig

Damn, EI...you let Happyman get the 3000th post!!


----------



## SomedayDig

betrayed1 said:


> No more chaos


Ordo Ab Chao - Out of Chaos, Comes Order


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Damn, EI...you let Happyman get the 3000th post!!


DON'T think I didn't notice that.....   ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

SomedayDig said:


> Damn, EI...you let Happyman get the 3000th post!!


Awesome!


----------



## Rookie4

I have a question. What can my ex-wife do to prove that her hurtful words were not reflective of her true feelings? I'm specifically asking the WS's to respond, either by post or PM. This is very important to us. She has said that she will do anything to prove that her feelings for me, sexually as well as romantically, never changed, but that she had "lost hope', in the marriage, and viewed Brad as plan B. I want to know if there is any merit to this, or if she is re-writing history to sooth my ego.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, I will have LOTS of questiosn like this, in the months ahead, as I did decide to give reconciliation a try. I want to proceed cautiously, to be sure that she and I are always on the same page. I have thought about asking her to post on this thread , to get some first-hand advice. What do you people think?


----------



## SomedayDig

I haven't followed your thread lately and I'm a BS not the WS, so sorry if I say something that's been said. First, when you talk to your wife do you sense that she really gets it? I mean...like really gets it. You'll know it by the look in her eyes. I could always see something barely hidden with Regret and she said I had all of the truth. That look was there from March 6 until August 30. The final trickle truth.

If you know your wife...truly know your wife...then you'll know if there is merit to her what she says to you.


----------



## SomedayDig

And if you decide to have your wife come to TAM, she needs to be prepared to get beaten up by people. It's just the way it is.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> I have a question. What can my ex-wife do to prove that her hurtful words were not reflective of her true feelings? I'm specifically asking the WS's to respond, either by post or PM. This is very important to us. She has said that she will do anything to prove that her feelings for me, sexually as well as romantically, never changed, but that she had "lost hope', in the marriage, and viewed Brad as plan B. I want to know if there is any merit to this, or if she is re-writing history to sooth my ego.


This is tough, Rookie. Because there are three possibilities I see: 
1) Your XW said these things, meant them, and still believes them.
2) Your XW said them to hurt you, did not mean them, and regrets having said them.
3) She said them, meant them to some degree at the time, but regrets saying them and no longer feels the same way. 

I think the most likely option is 3. So in order to reconcile, you are going to have to accept that whether there was some truth to her words or not, she no longer feels this way and is sorry for what she said. The words can't be forgotten, but you have a choice in whether they will keep you from a future with this woman. 

If I remember correctly, most of the comments were about sex, and sex is something that can be worked on. If she really wasn't satisfied, then you two need to honestly discuss this and figure out what is satisfying for both of you. From her, I would ask for openness and a lot of reassurance -which is fairly standard I'm sure for any BH and WW. 

At some point though, the issue becomes more your issue than hers. She can do her best to reassure you and prove to you that she wants you and is satisfied by you, but you personally are going to have to work through your insecurities that stem from these comments. It's not fair; I know that. I've done damage to my H's self-esteem as well, and I hate myself for it. I can try to rebuild it, but I can't do it all -some is on him. But I promise you that I am working really hard to prove to him that he is amazing and satisfies me -sometimes I work at it multiple times a day.  Hopefully the message is getting through to him, but I'm going to keep reiterating it until it does.


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig, I know what you mean, and yes, I think she truly "gets it", now. When she talks to me, she is sincere, I really believe that, and she is soliticious of my feelings to a huge degree, but therin lies the problem. I don't think she would re-write history to make herself look any better, but I am questioning if she would, to make ME feel better. Does that make any sense?


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> And if you decide to have your wife come to TAM, she needs to be prepared to get beaten up by people. It's just the way it is.


This is a major concern of mine. I don't want to see her abused, but there are some really good people here on TAM, who can help her.


----------



## EI

I know that I need to take the time to sit down and type up a serious post. I have pm's to answer and posts that I need to comment on..... I feel like such a slacker because I haven't had the time to devote to this thread lately that I feel like I should. Maybe that's a good thing.... I'm living my life, again, functioning "almost" like a normal person..... It's been such a long time, I had almost forgotten what that felt like. 

The holidays are a very busy time for everyone, I know, but with five kids and a very precious 15 month old grandson and a hubby that I love, adore and appreciate (these days more than ever) I have even more reasons to make the holidays special for my family this year.

I used the stay up very late at night. I've suffered from extreme insomnia for years and years. That is, often, when I would type up some of my masterpiece (I thought they were, anyway ) novella sized posts. Apparently, reconciliation is a "cure" for insomnia.... it's exhausting, to say the least. These days I am requiring 5-6 hours of sleep at night instead of the 3-4 hours that I had been living on for the last decade.

I will make the time, very soon, to comment on B1's more recent posts about the current state of our reconciliation and to check in with you guys. And, I will get to those pm's..... 

Last, but not least, *HM64*.... there is an unspoken, unwritten, and unagreed upon "rule" of the Reconciliation thread that says *"I"* get to make the "milestone" posts on this thread..... the 1000th, 2000th, 3000th..... and so on, and so on and so on........ Of course, I am the one who made up that "rule," but that's not the point............. LOL :rofl: 

Take care,
~EI

P.S. I've noticed that several people that don't regularly post on the "R" thread have, occasionally, been posting here, lately. That's awesome..... Keep 'em coming.... it's wonderful getting a different perspective on things!


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> SomedayDig, I know what you mean, and yes, I think she truly "gets it", now. When she talks to me, she is sincere, I really believe that, and she is soliticious of my feelings to a huge degree, but therin lies the problem. I don't think she would re-write history to make herself look any better, but I am questioning if she would, to make ME feel better. Does that make any sense?


It absolutely _does_ make sense. It's kind of what Regret did during those months of trick truth. She thought she was saving me by not telling me certain details cuz she _thought_ they were deal breakers. In fact, they weren't...the continued lying was. I almost walked that night if not for a few members on TAM who contacted me off site and talked me down. They didn't talk me OUT of leaving, they just helped me get my bearings when I had just been thrown back to Dday 1.

I'm glad you can see it in her eyes. So, next time you two are having time together and talking, just let her know that you are strong. You are strong enough to work on reconciliation, therefore, you're strong enough for her to NOT take care of you in that way.


----------



## ChangingMe

My husband posted on TAM first, emailed me his thread, and said I could read it if I wanted. We were not in a good place then; I really expected to get served divorce papers any day. In fact, his email started off, "I've decided to go to the court of public opinion . . ." and my heart dropped when I read the word court. 

Anyway, the people on his thread that didn't immediately say "Divorce the wh0re!" suggested he invite me to post. I discussed it with him, and obviously joined the site. It has been really, really good for him and me. Your XW would have to have really tough skin though; some of these TAM folks are harsh! So many really want to help though, and I think many are excellent at determining who is here for the right reasons. 

I have learned so much from this site and from the posters here, but I have learned the most from my husband. Through these last couple of months, there have been numerous things he hasn't been able to verbalize to me (though this is getting a lot better), but he has been able to post on here & give me a view into his head that way. I also think it's helped him to see how I respond to some of the posts on here. 

If you think she can tough it out, then I think it could be good for you both. DD is now in the R camp, BTW. :smthumbup:


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> This is a major concern of mine. I don't want to see her abused, but there are some really good people here on TAM, who can help her.


She doesn't have to post on the main board there are two social groups that could help her, one is moderated by me and the other is CM's group


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> This is tough, Rookie. Because there are three possibilities I see:
> 1) Your XW said these things, meant them, and still believes them.
> 2) Your XW said them to hurt you, did not mean them, and regrets having said them.
> 3) She said them, meant them to some degree at the time, but regrets saying them and no longer feels the same way.
> 
> I think the most likely option is 3. So in order to reconcile, you are going to have to accept that whether there was some truth to her words or not, she no longer feels this way and is sorry for what she said. The words can't be forgotten, but you have a choice in whether they will keep you from a future with this woman.
> 
> If I remember correctly, most of the comments were about sex, and sex is something that can be worked on. If she really wasn't satisfied, then you two need to honestly discuss this and figure out what is satisfying for both of you. From her, I would ask for openness and a lot of reassurance -which is fairly standard I'm sure for any BH and WW.
> 
> At some point though, the issue becomes more your issue than hers. She can do her best to reassure you and prove to you that she wants you and is satisfied by you, but you personally are going to have to work through your insecurities that stem from these comments. It's not fair; I know that. I've done damage to my H's self-esteem as well, and I hate myself for it. I can try to rebuild it, but I can't do it all -some is on him. But I promise you that I am working really hard to prove to him that he is amazing and satisfies me -sometimes I work at it multiple times a day.  Hopefully the message is getting through to him, but I'm going to keep reiterating it until it does.


CM, I know that #1 isn't true for her, but I'm fluctuating between thinking she feels #2 or #3. If she really felt #2, I think R would be a whole lot easier for me, and for her also. If her mindset is #3, it becomes much more complicated, doesn't it?


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> This is a major concern of mine. I don't want to see her abused, but there are some really good people here on TAM, who can help her.


Truth is, she will. The only thing she can do is report any post if it goes against the EULA of the site. Basically, no personally insulting comments, no instigating or provoking kind of commentary. Simply put...you'll know if she gets "abused" and simply report the post. I had to do that quite a bit when Regret and I started posting here together. My first thread and then the Q&A thread got a bit heated a few times.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Do know this- affair sex is exciting due to the secret exciting nature of the trysts

Thus, it is most likely a lie if she claims it wasn't "good sex". However mechanically, it could very well be true that you are a better long term lover and ultimately I think this is usually true of couple who know their sex partners well


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> This is tough, Rookie. Because there are three possibilities I see:
> 1) Your XW said these things, meant them, and still believes them.
> 2) Your XW said them to hurt you, did not mean them, and regrets having said them.
> *3) She said them, meant them to some degree at the time, but regrets saying them and no longer feels the same way.
> 
> I think the most likely option is 3. So in order to reconcile, you are going to have to accept that whether there was some truth to her words or not, she no longer feels this way and is sorry for what she said. The words can't be forgotten, but you have a choice in whether they will keep you from a future with this woman. *
> 
> If I remember correctly, most of the comments were about sex, and sex is something that can be worked on. If she really wasn't satisfied, then you two need to honestly discuss this and figure out what is satisfying for both of you. From her, I would ask for openness and a lot of reassurance -which is fairly standard I'm sure for any BH and WW.
> 
> At some point though, the issue becomes more your issue than hers. She can do her best to reassure you and prove to you that she wants you and is satisfied by you, but you personally are going to have to work through your insecurities that stem from these comments. It's not fair; I know that. I've done damage to my H's self-esteem as well, and I hate myself for it. I can try to rebuild it, but I can't do it all -some is on him. But I promise you that I am working really hard to prove to him that he is amazing and satisfies me -sometimes I work at it multiple times a day.  Hopefully the message is getting through to him, but I'm going to keep reiterating it until it does.



As a former WS..... I think that bolded part might speak for many WW's. It certainly speaks for me......


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> CM, I know that #1 isn't true for her, but I'm fluctuating between thinking she feels #2 or #3. If she really felt #2, I think R would be a whole lot easier for me, and for her also. If her mindset is #3, it becomes much more complicated, doesn't it?


Yes, but you have a bit of control over how complicated. Feelings can change, things we meant at one time aren't always indicative about what we feel later on. If you can believe this, and believe her sincerity, then you have the potential to move past this.

For example, one of things my husband has had to come to terms with (and I'm sure is still working on processing) is that, last spring, I actually felt like I was in love with OM. I said those words to him. Today, and since this summer, I have not felt that way, and I feel stupid thinking that it was ever love. It wasn't. But I know I felt like it at the time. I hate that I ever said those words to OM, that I said them to anyone but my husband. I regret saying them, and I no longer have any positive feelings about OM. But I know those words hurt DD and I will spend the rest of my life proving to him that he is the only man I truly love.

(And as AR mentioned, I do have a group for Former Wayward Wives that is private & is a safe place for us WW to post. If your XW joins TAM and proves herself to me , then I'll invite her to the group. It's not overly active, but it's a good place for those of us in that crappy club to seek help from one another.)


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> It absolutely _does_ make sense. It's kind of what Regret did during those months of trick truth. She thought she was saving me by not telling me certain details cuz she _thought_ they were deal breakers. In fact, they weren't...the continued lying was. I almost walked that night if not for a few members on TAM who contacted me off site and talked me down. They didn't talk me OUT of leaving, they just helped me get my bearings when I had just been thrown back to Dday 1.
> 
> I'm glad you can see it in her eyes. So, next time you two are having time together and talking, just let her know that you are strong. You are strong enough to work on reconciliation, therefore, you're strong enough for her to NOT take care of you in that way.


 I think, SomedayDig that this could be a major advantage to us. After all, the "deal", is already broken, right?


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> This is a major concern of mine. I don't want to see her abused, but there are some really good people here on TAM, who can help her.


Warn her, have her report anything abusive, and it also doesn't hurt for you to put a disclaimer out to people. DD posted this before my first post: 

*So she has asked me permission to join this forum and give her thoughts.

I am fine with it but I would request that you do not shred her and call her b1tch, $lut, wh0re, etc.... I have already done that.
She didn't cheat on you. You can't react to her like she did cheat on you.

I am fine with her chiming in and giving her side but I fully expect a few of you might attack and be hateful. I told her to get ready and just ignore anything that seems hateful for the sake of being hateful. *

It didn't stop all the attacks, but I do think it helped posters respect DD's wishes. And I really appreciated that he had my back to some extent.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> This is a major concern of mine. I don't want to see her abused, but there are some really good people here on TAM, who can help her.





SomedayDig said:


> Truth is, she will. The only thing she can do is report any post if it goes against the EULA of the site. Basically, no personally insulting comments, no instigating or provoking kind of commentary. Simply put...you'll know if she gets "abused" and simply report the post. I had to do that quite a bit when Regret and I started posting here together. My first thread and then the Q&A thread got a bit heated a few times.


Rookie, every WS that has ever posted on TAM and stuck around for more than 2 posts has had to endure their share of "abuse." Some of it was merited and some was ridiculously over the top..... just like in real life. It has been a learning experience.... a very challenging and painful one, at times. But, I do not, honestly, think that B1 and I would be as far along in our reconciliation as we are, today, without the guidance, direction, support and encouragement that we have received from TAM. In fact, some of the most hurtful things that have been said to me, on TAM, were often the catalysts for B1 to defend me, my character, my morals, my values, my.... everything. That, in turn, brought us closer.... it brought a B1 and EI against the world (or TAM) kind of dynamic back to our relationship. I've also seen the same thing happen with Calvin and CSS, Dig and Regret, Joe Kidd and Pidge, CM and DD..... Nothing seems to bring out a man's loving and protective nature quite like defending his wife..... even the wife who betrayed him. I have noticed a very positive success rate in the reconciliations for "couples" posting on TAM together.

~EI


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Do know this- affair sex is exciting due to the secret exciting nature of the trysts
> 
> Thus, it is most likely a lie if she claims it wasn't "good sex". However mechanically, it could very well be true that you are a better long term lover and ultimately I think this is usually true of couple who know their sex partners well


See, AR, this is what she told me months ago. That the sex with Brad wasn't any better, but the situation between them was. It was liberating (her words) to have sex without all of the anger and stress of a marriage in turmoil. That her words were those of a person at the end of her tether, and were the product of months and months of resentment and stress. Plus, I have to admit , she does have anger management issues, as I've said before.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> As a former WS..... I think that bolded part might speak for many WW's. It certainly speaks for me......


This is a toughie, for sure.


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> Yes, but you have a bit of control over how complicated. Feelings can change, things we meant at one time aren't always indicative about what we feel later on. If you can believe this, and believe her sincerity, then you have the potential to move past this.
> 
> For example, one of things my husband has had to come to terms with (and I'm sure is still working on processing) is that, last spring, I actually felt like I was in love with OM. I said those words to him. Today, and since this summer, I have not felt that way, and I feel stupid thinking that it was ever love. It wasn't. But I know I felt like it at the time. I hate that I ever said those words to OM, that I said them to anyone but my husband. I regret saying them, and I no longer have any positive feelings about OM. But I know those words hurt DD and I will spend the rest of my life proving to him that he is the only man I truly love.
> 
> (And as AR mentioned, I do have a group for Former Wayward Wives that is private & is a safe place for us WW to post. If your XW joins TAM and proves herself to me , then I'll invite her to the group. It's not overly active, but it's a good place for those of us in that crappy club to seek help from one another.)


This almost makes me feel like crying.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> See, AR, this is what she told me months ago. That the sex with Brad wasn't any better, but the situation between them was. It was liberating (her words) to have sex without all of the anger and stress of a marriage in turmoil. That her words were those of a person at the end of her tether, and were the product of months and months of resentment and stress. Plus, I have to admit , she does have anger management issues, as I've said before.


Affairs are pure fantasy in every shape of the word. It's why most affairs never last long term (3%), once subjugated to the banalities of real life, the fantasy can't survive.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> It absolutely _does_ make sense. It's kind of what Regret did during those months of trick truth. She thought she was saving me by not telling me certain details cuz she _thought_ they were *deal breakers*. In fact, they weren't...the continued lying was. I almost walked that night if not for a few members on TAM who contacted me off site and talked me down. They didn't talk me OUT of leaving, they just helped me get my bearings when I had just been thrown back to Dday 1.
> 
> I'm glad you can see it in her eyes. So, next time you two are having time together and talking, just let her know that you are strong. You are strong enough to work on reconciliation, therefore, you're strong enough for her to NOT take care of you in that way.





Rookie4 said:


> I think, SomedayDig that this could be a major advantage to us. After all, the *"deal", is already broken, right?*



Interestingly enough, the very things that I "trickle-truthed" the longest.... because *"I"* thought they were *deal breakers*, were not the things that B1 viewed as deal breakers, at all. The things that would have been "deal breakers" for B1, if they had been deal breakers, I had already spewed out fairly quickly. Apparently, most men and most women have very different ideas of deal breakers. What later could have become a deal breaker, was simply that I had waited so long to tell him the things that "I" feared would be most detrimental to our reconciliation..... the emotional aspect of the affair.


----------



## Rookie4

When she said those things to me, it was like my wife had been replaced by somebody I didn't know. I truly thought that she loved somebody else, and desired him more. I don't know how I managed to get through those days, I really don't.
When she called me begging to come home. I had a moment of false hope. But when I asked her where she was and she told me, I din't want to see her, know her, or love her. I wanted to erase her from my mind and heart.


----------



## calvin

Rookie if you can get her on here then great,like CM and EI said it might be rought at first.
I tried to get CSS on here but at first she felt a lot of guilt just reading what other X WS had written.
This site did more good than all three counselors we have seen.
It opened up CSS's eyes and mind and gave her some insight as to how I felt and what she should do.
I honestly believe it has helped us speed things up a little,lots of support for you both.
Dont push too hard,she'll get curious and start checking it out on her own.
I wouldnt recomend every BS shows the WS this site but in your case I think it would be a good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie...this is from my very first post here at TAM. If your wife does decide to come here, I would say use the same kind of language.

" Feel free to ask any questions you want. I am an open book. I only ask one thing and that is respect. Regret214 IS my wife. We are working on reconciling our marriage. Please do not disrespect my wife while we're here. I think that is a pretty simple request. I'm not saying to cow tow to her. I'm simply asking that words be chosen wisely. She hurt me more than she could ever hurt you, so in essence, I am the only one with the right to bash her."


----------



## CantSitStill

I remember when I first posted on here. It was a thread Calvin had and so everyone knew what I put him thru before D-day and then all of how I told Calvin I refused to stop talking to the X OM and left our home...well just a couple days home I tried to explain what goes thru the mind of a WS..oh my gosh! I got alot of crap from people but I deserved it. I wasn't fully out of the fog and these are people that were supporting Calvin for months before he knew for sure about my EA. Bandit really gave me hell and now we are friends. Had I not come here, I wonder how long it woulda taken me to really get it. I wonder if I woulda tried to rug sweep had it not been for TAM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

No I knew,didnt want to believe it.


----------



## happyman64

CSS

Do not guess at what might have happened or not happened.

The fact is that you came here (that takes inner strength/courage that some people do not have)!

You took your lumps and you listened......

Keep listening.

I think you are awesome.


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> CSS
> 
> Do not guess at what might have happened or not happened.
> 
> The fact is that you came here (that takes inner strength/courage that some people do not have)!
> 
> You took your lumps and you listened......
> 
> Keep listening.
> 
> I think you are awesome.


And what am I Hm?
I da bomb!......nevermind CSS said I'm not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh I know what you mean HM4 yet I believe I took a better look at myself pre-ea after being here..before I really did only look at his faults pre-ea and so I am so very thankful for this place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Seriously,very gald I found this place.Helped us both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I was one of the first aside from Joe and Pidge to be on here with my hubby I believe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

and now we have more, for that I am thankful to have all of you here, makes me not feel so alone. I know I can talk to you all and get support, whether it's what I want to hear or what I NEED to hear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

CantSitStill said:


> I was one of the first aside from Joe and Pidge to be on here with my hubby I believe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To tell the truth I only found this place because I was watching her every move after the A. Now I just watch her because I like to.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> To tell the truth I only found this place because I was watching her every move after the A. Now I just watch her because I like too.


There ya go joe...good stuff to hear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> And what am I Hm?
> I da bomb!......nevermind CSS said I'm not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No Calvin. You are the man!

I actually read your one of your emotional outpourings from this week and I knew you finally got it.

It takes time and a lot of hard work.:smthumbup:

And I appreciate both of you for your efforts.

Keep moving forward Calvin.


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> No Calvin. You are the man!
> 
> I actually read your one of your emotional outpourings from this week and I knew you finally got it.
> 
> It takes time and a lot of hard work.:smthumbup:
> 
> And I appreciate both of you for your efforts.
> 
> Keep moving forward Calvin.


Thanks Hm,I...we are.
no reason why we cant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi guys.
Feeling a bit off today. Maybe it's just the run up to Xmas and all that. I don't know!
Hs phone was on the work surface earlier, I just picked it up and had a glance at the messages, nothing there of course, but I hate that I feel the need to do it. It's always there isn't it, even when you think it's not! : - (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Had some really good days where if the A crossed my mind I could push it away easily.
I'm not triggering out but its been on my mind all day.
I need a drink or two....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I'll join you in a drink of John Daniels later. First, at 5pm we gotta go watch my son play viola at his school Christmas concert.


----------



## Almostrecovered

bring your ear plugs, beginner strings are hard to listen to


----------



## SomedayDig

I saw them earlier in the year. It does tend to be a bit on the scratchy side!


----------



## Rookie4

My youngest daughter took violin lessons and in the beginning, it was so bad it hurt my teeth. I began bringing earplugs home from work to help, but my wife thought that was awful , until ons night I caught her with them in her ears. LOL


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> My youngest daughter took violin lessons and in the beginning, it was so bad it hurt my teeth. I began bringing earplugs home from work to help, but my wife thought that was awful , until ons night I caught her with them in her ears. LOL


Very funny about the ear plugs rookie.

My brother plays drums and I played the bass guitar.

And our parents never complained once.

I love my parents. They just celebrated their 51st wedding anniversary.

It was possible because my Mom is a Saint!

HM64


----------



## Rookie4

Momma's boy are we , Happyman? I was not my mom's favorite, but I was my Grandma's.


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Momma's boy are we , Happyman? I was not my mom's favorite, but I was my Grandma's.


Very funny Rookie.

I know the feeling. My Italian grandmother (my Dad's Mom) considered me her favorite. There was nothing I would not do for her especially after my Grandfather passed away. 

On a side note, after she met my now current wife of 20 years and got to know her she pulled me aside one day and told me not to let this one get away. Then handed me a paper bag with $10K in it with a note to go buy an engagement ring with the money.

My Grandmother knew before I did.

So yes I am a Momma and Grandmomma's boy for sure. Lol.


----------



## ChangingMe

HM, I LOVE that story about your grandmother! That's awesome. 
I also like hearing about momma's boys. My son is only 5, but he's a total momma's boy, and I want him to stay that way!

And speaking of the need for earplugs. That 5 year old is getting a drum set for Christmas, and I am halfway thinking we're crazy for doing so. DD is really into music (has played guitar for years, can play around on the drums and bass a bit too). Son has been asking for drums for several months, and DD has repainted the playroom fun colors and renamed it the Toys and Noise room. Thank God is has a door that shuts; I think we are going to need it! I think DD is nearly as excited as our son will be about the drums. It's a junior set of course though, so I can't wait to see 6 foot DD sitting on that little stool and banging away. He has already said he will have to test them out.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

ChangingMe said:


> HM, I LOVE that story about your grandmother! That's awesome.
> I also like hearing about momma's boys. My son is only 5, but he's a total momma's boy, and I want him to stay that way!
> 
> And speaking of the need for earplugs. That 5 year old is getting a drum set for Christmas, and I am halfway thinking we're crazy for doing so.
> 
> You're giving a 5 year-old drums? That's whacked! You are gonna be SO sorry...
> 
> DD is really into music (has played guitar for years, can play around on the drums and bass a bit too). Son has been asking for drums for several months, and DD has repainted the playroom fun colors and renamed it the Toys and Noise room. Thank God is has a door that shuts; I think we are going to need it! I think DD is nearly as excited as our son will be about the drums. It's a junior set of course though, so I can't wait to see 6 foot DD sitting on that little stool and banging away. He has already said he will have to test them out.


No door will keep out the devil that is a 5 year-old (or 40-something year-old) on the drums. Cherish your quiet until the 25th.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Okay, if you haven't figured it out by now, I've (bobka) changed my name. Looking at it now, I guess I should've picked something shorter. But it is what it is. I just didn't want to be so easy to search out.

Anyhow, you can still call me bobka, or Hope, I guess, or HSE. Whatever.


----------



## calvin

bobka? Is that really you?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> No door will keep out the devil that is a 5 year-old (or 40-something year-old) on the drums. Cherish your quiet until the 25th.


I know, I know. When DD and I were at Guitar Center buying them, I was already second guessing the decision. But then it hit me that I will be annoyed in _my_ house with _my_ kids and _my_ husband, and I'll take the headaches! 

I do feel like post-A I'm a bit more easy-going. Little things don't bother me quite as much. I'm still just so grateful to be home with my family, when I could very easily be in a place where DD and I are deciding who's place the kids will celebrate Christmas at. But instead, I will be stocking up on earplugs with my husband while one kid beats on a drum and the other bangs a cymbal. Life's good, noise and all!

Oh, and bobka, I like the new name. But it's going to be hard not to call you bobka.


----------



## Rookie4

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Okay, if you haven't figured it out by now, I've (bobka) changed my name. Looking at it now, I guess I should've picked something shorter. But it is what it is. I just didn't want to be so easy to search out.
> 
> Anyhow, you can still call me bobka, or Hope, I guess, or HSE. Whatever.


You can call me Ray, you can call me RayJay, you can call me RJ, or you can call me RJJ, but ya doesn'
t has ta call me Johnson.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

ChangingMe said:


> Oh, and bobka, I like the new name. But it's going to be hard not to call you bobka.


Go ahead and call me bobka - that's fine.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Most people call me peckerhead so AR is an improvement


----------



## happyman64

ChangingMe said:


> HM, I LOVE that story about your grandmother! That's awesome.
> I also like hearing about momma's boys. My son is only 5, but he's a total momma's boy, and I want him to stay that way!
> 
> And speaking of the need for earplugs. That 5 year old is getting a drum set for Christmas, and I am halfway thinking we're crazy for doing so. DD is really into music (has played guitar for years, can play around on the drums and bass a bit too). Son has been asking for drums for several months, and DD has repainted the playroom fun colors and renamed it the Toys and Noise room. Thank God is has a door that shuts; I think we are going to need it! I think DD is nearly as excited as our son will be about the drums. It's a junior set of course though, so I can't wait to see 6 foot DD sitting on that little stool and banging away. He has already said he will have to test them out.


Very funny CM.

My brother the drummer ended up becoming a professional musician. Even toured with acts like WHite Lion and Bon Jovi. His band never made it big but he did well personally.

His last tour was with Def leppard as a backup drummer.

So get that kid his drums. Younever know where music will take you. ANd it is an excellent talent to cultivate. Make sure he learns to read music when he is older. I think DD will agree with me.

HM64


----------



## Rookie4

Got another question. My possible reconciliation is somewhat different than most of you guys (and Gals). First off, I'm already divorced, and second I have been dating pretty heavily, so I'm not exactly desperate. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the main reasons I'm not as willing to re-commit, as some others are.
My ex-wife has done a lot to improve herself, she has expressed a willingness to abide by my plan of action and boundaries, and has demonstrated pretty much complete disdain for the OM, and repugnance for her actions of the past. Plus, she repeatedly is showing how much she loves and desires me.
So why am I still unsure? Why can I not seem to get past her angry words?


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Most people call me peckerhead so AR is an improvement


Yep, I would say that AR is a HUGE improvement over Peckerhead.


----------



## old timer

Keep your options open, my friend


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Rookie4 said:


> Got another question. My possible reconciliation is somewhat different than most of you guys (and Gals). First off, I'm already divorced, and second I have been dating pretty heavily, so I'm not exactly desperate. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the main reasons I'm not as willing to re-commit, as some others are.
> My ex-wife has done a lot to improve herself, she has expressed a willingness to abide by my plan of action and boundaries, and has demonstrated pretty much complete disdain for the OM, and repugnance for her actions of the past. Plus, she repeatedly is showing how much she loves and desires me.
> So why am I still unsure? Why can I not seem to get past her angry words?


How much do you love her?


----------



## Rookie4

That is a very good question, Bobka. One that I'm not prepared to answer just yet. Do I love her, yes! How much? IDK. Is it enough to overcome my bad feelings and hesitation? Time will tell, I guess. Ok, I guess I've got my answer, so disregard my original question.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie, if you want to reconcile with your wife you are going to make an active effort to forgive her. Read about forgiveness and acceptance.
Another thing I think you are going to need is to embrace humility, to check your ego, your pride. Don't mistake humility with humilliation, that's what you felt back then. Maybe taking a serious look at your XW's achievements of the last year could help you. Do you think I'm kidding?
The next quote is shamesly stolen from a WW, encouraging others to be patient with their BSs and keep fighting. I think there are are parts which applies to WSs and BSs alike. I'm a BH but it helped me as I saw my wife struggles.


> I read about how your BS's just can't get over it, even tho it's been over a year. (I'll hold back the snark on that one) Or that he's choosing to live in a state of saddness and limbo.
> So here is a lesson in humility and being humble and remembering to be patient with those that you're supposed to love.
> Being humble is not about being walked over or humiliation. It’s about having an honest perspective of yourself. You are not more worthy, you are not more valuable and you are not more important than anyone else. If you think you’re “better” than someone, you will be less likely to use your knowledge and lessons learned for good.
> A humble person is modest, this is not to be confused with thinking that you are lower than someone else. Humility and being humble are virtue’s and we learned to be both when we couldn’t have sunk any lower and slowly worked our way back out of a very dark place.
> The art of being humble and showing humility is the most wonderful way of living. Having both of these qualities allows us to be honorable and have grace.
> Humility is the opposite of pride.
> And while pride in itself is not necessarily always a bad thing, it can become corrupt when we act out of pride rather than humility. Cultivating an attitude of humility keeps our focus on ourselves, knowing how much has been learned and yet how much else is yet to be learned.
> It keeps you grounded always mindful of where you have been without hindering where you need to go. Humbleness does not hurt others.
> Practicing patience leads you to be blameless. “Adultery," that's impatience. Impatience leads to adultery when an unresponsive spouse, for example, doesn't live the way we think they ought to. They are not being responsive to our needs so we get impatient with them. And we look for someone else. Adultery begins with impatience.
> So please, be patient with your BS...you put them in this world of darkness and feelings of hopelessness, it's your duty and resonsibility to help pull them out and back to safe ground. You let them down already...don't do it again by being impatient with them


----------



## Acabado

Rookie, find out what you really feel about your XW, spend tons of quality time with her. Just try, with no expectations. Get to know this (new=) woman.


----------



## moxy

Acabado said:


> Rookie, find out what you really feel about your XW, spend tons of quality time with her. Just try, with no expectations. Get to know this (new=) woman.


Good advice.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado, I loved my wife, I hated what she had become, now IDK about this new, improved , post-marriage model. 
We have been doing a lot of talking , lately, and I finally was able to tell her how I felt, back when I discovered the affair. She takes all of the blame on herself, and I don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing.


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi guys.
> Feeling a bit off today. Maybe it's just the run up to Xmas and all that. I don't know!
> Hs phone was on the work surface earlier, I just picked it up and had a glance at the messages, nothing there of course, but I hate that I feel the need to do it. It's always there isn't it, even when you think it's not! : - (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i'm feeling a bit off too and i hate it too. and yes, it's the trust thing for me as well. i don't even really like acknowledging it because somehow i'm afraid that i might be fueling it in some way if i do -- that doesn't even make any sense! 

just trying to hold on to what everyone says about taking a day at a time, and knowing that this is a long process/a rollercoaster/ etc., and having patience. all of which are harder on some days than others...


----------



## B1

Rookie4 said:


> Acabado, I loved my wife, I hated what she had become, now IDK about this new, improved , post-marriage model.
> We have been doing a lot of talking , lately, and I finally was able to tell her how I felt, back when I discovered the affair. She takes all of the blame on herself, and I don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing.


In our situation the roles are reversed, I am the one that had the BIG change. And EI is getting used to this new, improved me.
She still has trouble with it sometimes, really truly believing it. I am so different then before when it comes to love, emotions and sex.
For me it's wonderful and normal now, but to her, sometimes, she says I am like a different person, not the one she married. 

Take your time rookie, make sure this new her sticks around, there is no hurry. And enjoy it while your at it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> Got another question. My possible reconciliation is somewhat different than most of you guys (and Gals). First off, I'm already divorced, and second I have been dating pretty heavily, so I'm not exactly desperate. I'm beginning to wonder if these are the main reasons I'm not as willing to re-commit, as some others are.
> My ex-wife has done a lot to improve herself, she has expressed a willingness to abide by my plan of action and boundaries, and has demonstrated pretty much complete disdain for the OM, and repugnance for her actions of the past. Plus, she repeatedly is showing how much she loves and desires me.
> So why am I still unsure? Why can I not seem to get past her angry words?



you touch a stove and get burned you don't exactly want to go near the stove again. That is until you learn how a stove works, how to use it safely and then observe how it is safe through careful practice. 


IOW, that trust has to be regained. It doesn't happen at the snap of your fingers. By taking this slow, she will either re-earn your trust (but likely never ALL of it) or demonstrate that it won't work. ON BOTH ENDS- whether she can demonstrate to be trustworthy and whether you can forgive and be able to give her some trust. Only time will tell.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

AR is right. Time will tell.



> *We have been doing a lot of talking , lately, and I finally was able to tell her how I felt, back when I discovered the affair. She takes all of the blame on herself, and I don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing*.


But just the fact that the two of you can talk honestly with each other now shows how much you both have grown from 2 years ago.

And the fact that your exwife takes all the blame shows she is remorseful.

And if you owe any cause to the demise of your marriage say it, own it and fix it for the future.

Patience Rookie.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie, AR and HM have given you some good advice. Read it carefully. 

Daisy and Margrace, I'm sorry you both are having rough times. It's so unfair how that can hit. As a WS, I want to apologize to you for that. It's such an unfair part of this mess -though I guess the whole mess itself is unfair to the BS. 

I dreamed last night that DD triggered out of the blue. We were in a store and he just got furious. He had me leave the store so he could process things, and I can remember the fear and anxiety and sadness I felt in my dream. Thankfully this morning, he was in a good space, but I fear the triggers so much -mostly for the pain I know they cause him, but if I'm being honest, also a bit for the pain and fear I feel from them too. 

I hope today is a better day for both of you.


----------



## SomedayDig

How close some are in this Reconciliation bid. Again, it's interesting how the cycles come and go. It's also frustrating as hell. I was encouraged today when I read something and added a bit at the end.

At 211*F, water is very hot. At 212*F, water boils. Such small differences matter.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

SomedayDig said:


> How close some are in this Reconciliation bid. Again, it's interesting how the cycles come and go. It's also frustrating as hell. I was encouraged today when I read something and added a bit at the end.
> 
> At 211*F, water is very hot. At 212*F, water boils. Such small differences matter.


Yeah, it seems every day is different, sometimes. I now find myself occasionally thinking that it might be easier to just chuck it all, and give up. And I'm probably the last person you'd expect to hear that from. It's so hard...


----------



## Almostrecovered

unless you add salt


----------



## Almostrecovered

or boil it at above sea level


----------



## calvin

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Yeah, it seems every day is different, sometimes. I now find myself occasionally thinking that it might be easier to just chuck it all, and give up. And I'm probably the last person you'd expect to hear that from. It's so hard...


Yes it is,its hard to be patient and ride it out,it sucks.
Cant tell you how many times I want to say f it and split but it does go away.
Its hard for me because of all the phone calls from the semi- homeless loser.
Hang in there bobka,hope...now I'm confused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Yeah, it seems every day is different, sometimes. I now find myself occasionally thinking that it might be easier to just chuck it all, and give up. And I'm probably the last person you'd expect to hear that from. It's so hard...


Regret's affair lasted 5 years. On Dday my daughter was 6. My car had been paid off. My flying career was 10 years. I had just turned 44, she had just turned 42.

It is hard, man. It is.

But even when there are dark clouds and lighting flashing and thunder splitting the eardrums...the sun is still shining.

We just can't see it at that point.


----------



## happyman64

SomedayDig said:


> Regret's affair lasted 5 years. On Dday my daughter was 6. My car had been paid off. My flying career was 10 years. I had just turned 44, she had just turned 42.
> 
> It is hard, man. It is.
> 
> *But even when there are dark clouds and lighting flashing and thunder splitting the eardrums...the sun is still shining.*
> 
> We just can't see it at that point.


And that Dig is when you land the plane, rent the car and still get to your destination.

You still get to the same place, it just takes you a little longer!!


----------



## SomedayDig

I've had a great many trips get to a destination that way HM64. My favorite was flying to West Palm Beach, FL we couldn't get through a line of storms across central Florida. We landed in Daytona and the clients took a limo the rest of the way.

It took us 2 hours to get to Daytona and then 3 hours for them to drive from there to W. Palm. I still get a chuckle outta that one.


----------



## happyman64

SomedayDig said:


> I've had a great many trips get to a destination that way HM64. My favorite was flying to West Palm Beach, FL we couldn't get through a line of storms across central Florida. We landed in Daytona and the clients took a limo the rest of the way.
> 
> It took us 2 hours to get to Daytona and then 3 hours for them to drive from there to W. Palm. I still get a chuckle outta that one.


Been there done that Dig. I can remember flying from Newfoundland one time and we hit central Ct. surrounded by Thunderstorms. 

We dropped into Hartford. Rented a car and drove 2.5 hours into White Plains. It was sunny and beautiful when we got out of the car. 

All we could do was laugh at the situation and shoot straws to see who was going back for the plane later in the week. Lol.


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> Rookie, AR and HM have given you some good advice. Read it carefully.
> 
> Daisy and Margrace, I'm sorry you both are having rough times. It's so unfair how that can hit. As a WS, I want to apologize to you for that. It's such an unfair part of this mess -though I guess the whole mess itself is unfair to the BS.
> 
> I dreamed last night that DD triggered out of the blue. We were in a store and he just got furious. He had me leave the store so he could process things, and I can remember the fear and anxiety and sadness I felt in my dream. Thankfully this morning, he was in a good space, but I fear the triggers so much -mostly for the pain I know they cause him, but if I'm being honest, also a bit for the pain and fear I feel from them too.
> 
> I hope today is a better day for both of you.


thank you, cm, that helps. we are all trying so hard, and your message shows me (again) how healing it is to have your hard work and your pain acknowledged with feeling and sincerity. 

i am sure that i need to offer that more often to everyone in my life -- including my WS, who, like you, has his own burdens in this mess.

and dig, hope/bobka, and calvin: thanks for underlining how hard it is for you as well. i have those moments of wanting to quit too.

sometimes i think it would help me if my WS was as articulate about feelings, etc as CM, CSS, EI, and some of the others are. i have to connect many of the dots on my own, and i have to really search inside myself for patience to do that, and i have to take a lot on faith (something that i don't have much of right now). 

with his silence, he doesn't give me a lot to go on in terms of rebuilding trust. and i don't trust him yet.

maybe i need to think a bit less about what i am getting and a bit more about what i am giving.

so.... for now i am doing the one-day-at-a-time thing.


----------



## calvin

margrace said:


> thank you, cm, that helps. we are all trying so hard, and your message shows me (again) how healing it is to have your hard work and your pain acknowledged with feeling and sincerity.
> 
> i am sure that i need to offer that more often to everyone in my life -- including my WS, who, like you, has his own burdens in this mess.
> 
> and dig, hope/bobka, and calvin: thanks for underlining how hard it is for you as well. i have those moments of wanting to quit too.
> 
> sometimes i think it would help me if my WS was as articulate about feelings, etc as CM, CSS, EI, and some of the others are. i have to connect many of the dots on my own, and i have to really search inside myself for patience to do that, and i have to take a lot on faith (something that i don't have much of right now).
> 
> with his silence, he doesn't give me a lot to go on in terms of rebuilding trust. and i don't trust him yet.
> 
> maybe i need to think a bit less about what i am getting and a bit more about what i am giving.
> 
> so.... for now i am doing the one-day-at-a-time thing.


One day at a time is all you can do marg,sometimes you feel like you'd be better off dead but it will pass,it isnt easy,in fact its hard as hell but if your WS really is doing all they can,its a huge help.
CSS understands how much it hurts,just having her hold me and tell me how sorry she is goes a long way.
I pray your husband is doing things like this to help you heal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Dig,your about a month behind me in R,I was just wonder how you feel.
Still have bad days? Ten and a half months out and I still get them although they are not as bad as they were 5-6 months ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> Dig,your about a month behind me in R,I was just wonder how you feel.
> Still have bad days? Ten and a half months out and I still get them although they are not as bad as they were 5-6 months ago.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still have bad days, however I would dare say they don't happen quite as often. Man, at the 5-6 month point it was at least once or twice a week it seemed. At this stage maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks. I think the biggest change is that I don't let it consume me. We ALL know what that's like. 

For me it was scouring over cell phone bills or looking at Regret's email account searching for his name or any of the fake girl names she used for him on her phone. God it was horrible living like that.

I've also stopped questions about details. I have enough. I have however asked one final question: Why. I told Regret I wanted to give her a week or two to really think about it and work it out with her IC (it's nice that our IC's are at the same office - not that they facilitate, but I'm pretty sure they talk).

My IC is awesome. The dude is seriously a God send to me. A couple weeks ago we were talking about stuff and he just came out and said, "So, Dig...do ya trust her?" I looked at him and answered as honestly as I could. "I do but I don't." As is his usual he got me with "Okay...so you don't trust her". We both kind of laughed and I admitted that I was having a tough time knowing that she had trickle truthed me for so long. He totally understood and we came back to that at my Wednesday session.

"Dig," he said, "You see, asking Regret for her phone to check texts or asking her to turn on her GPS when she's out...that might have been necessary when all this sh-t came down. Now, though you need to be okay that you cannot control Regret. Only she can do that. Let Regret show you her phone on her own. Let Regret turn on the GPS on her own. Let Regret answer Why on her own. Dig...you can't control it."

I have much better days now. The bad day last week was probably the first in a month. Last night we had a good conversation. When we finished, I openly had tears in my eyes. I don't hide that. 

I told her I want to forgive her. I want to forgive her so badly.

I'm just not ready, yet.


----------



## calvin

Good stuff dig,I still have a couple bad days a week but not like they were before,the trust is mostly there,she seen what the X OM was really like.
Forgivness? Thats a little harder but I'm almost all the way there.
Thanks Dig
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Yeah, Calvin...totally understand. Regret now sees how she was used by the xOM for so f'ng long. I think knowing that she was nothing but a F toy really hurts her. She sees what a cowardly, balless sack of monkey sh-t he is. In turn she sees what a (her words) strong man she always had but never saw until Dday.

Forgiveness. I ain't racing for it. I know it's out there. One day.


----------



## calvin

Yep,everything the pos was a lie,all of it,she was shocked when we talked with his now ex-friends.
Cant believe she took him at his word.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Good morning, Reconciliators! I was going to ask everyone to check in, but it looks like that's already started, so that's a good thing. I was starting to think everyone was doing so well they were going to abandon the thread! Not that I wouldn't want that...


----------



## calvin

Howdy bobka
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

where is Bobka, haven't seen him for a week or so


----------



## calvin

I just cant get used to his new name yet.
Maybe I should change mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

new name?!!

which one is he?!!


----------



## calvin

Almostrecovered said:


> new name?!!
> 
> which one is he?!!


Hope springs enternal...get with it AR!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'll cange my name to bobka! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

What have you done with Bobka Hope Springs!!!


----------



## EI

Dear God, those poor precious babies and their devastated families in CT. These kinds of tragedies, literally, paralyze me. This world is full of so much sadness and wrong doing, but this is heartbreak on a whole different kind of level.... My heart is breaking...... </3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Very sad,why dont people like that just cut to the chase and do themselves in?
I'll never understand it.The Bible says it better to tie a mill stone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea than to harm a child.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

I just watched Obama's speech, and I've been sitting here crying. I left work early to come home and hug my kids. Normally, DD and I put the kids in a drop-in daycare on Friday nights and go to dinner, but I going to cook something here and do a family movie night. Just so grateful that I can cuddle on the couch with my family. 

Cannot wrap my brain around this. My son is 5, and if I allow myself to start really thinking about how he's the same age as some of the kids that were killed, I just fall apart. My heart is absolutely breaking for those families. Life is so short. So grateful for every day I have.


----------



## joe kidd

I know it's corny and cliche but I am in love. I spent the last 15 yrs closed . I was a cold unfeeling bastard, really...nothing got though. Man the stuff I missed.


----------



## B1

joe kidd said:


> I know it's corny and cliche but I am in love. I spent the last 15 yrs closed . I was a cold unfeeling bastard, really...nothing got though. Man the stuff I missed.


wow...I told EI roughly the same thing just the other day. I was so closed off and shut down and the things I missed out on. We were cuddling on the couch and I realized how many of those experiences I missed. And how EI would have given anything to have had them then. It made me so sad for EI, because that's when she suffered and hurt and she did it alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Yeah,I always loved CSS,thats for sure.
She used to ask why I loved her,I told her there is no one like you.
I could have been better,she could have too.
I think about her a lot at work and I really cant wait to get home to be with her.
She's on my mind a lot and I know I'm on her's.
Love is a very good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

A few thoughts late at night, when sleep is hard to come by, about a previously referenced post that may be germane to the topic of this thread. We leave on a cruise tomorrow and I have many things to get accomplished today and would rather be sleeping but I'm wide awake.

My daughter and grandson live in a town next to Newtown, Ct. She's a fifth grade teacher in a school located five or six miles away from the hospital to which the shooting victims were transported. My family has enjoyed dinner many times at the Newtown Inn.

So often we read posts that say infidelity is an experience likened to rape or the loss of a child. We also read about reconcilliation for the sake of a child or children. Statistically, at least judging by the volumes of posts on this and other infidelity web sites, it is probably significant that some of the parents of the twenty lost young ones have experienced faithlessness in their married lives.

I think once and for all it must be acknowledged that the reason for reconcilliation after infidelity must be to be able to endure and appreciate life and whatever it brings in the loving embrace of a committed partner. Any other reason will ultimately prove to be unsatisfying, insufficient and possibly ephemeral.

I, of course, will be thinking of the souls of twenty innocents. However, I will also be praying that the parents and loved ones of those lost can find the strength necessary to deal with their grief and changed lives. I especially hope that those parents who have had their love for each other previously challenged, for whatever reason, can come together to comfort each other effectively.

Seasalt


----------



## Omegaa

margrace said:


> with his silence, he doesn't give me a lot to go on in terms of rebuilding trust. and i don't trust him yet.
> 
> maybe i need to think a bit less about what i am getting and a bit more about what i am giving.


I hear you. I'm in the same shoes. Quiet type (ws), who had a long-term adulterous relationship behind my back over 3 years. He refuses to talk about any aspects of his affair. He refuses to talk about anything re. his affair.

Is your h willing to discuss re. his affair?

People seem to think I'm a complete pushover, "forgiving" him for what he did when he never said, "sorry". Simple "sorry" would have been nice. Apparently, men don't apologize as men are natural as---les, apparently.

I'm all in for keeping our marriage going but I needed to "wise up" a little. Certainly, I do not trust him as much as I used to do quite stupidly.

To be honest, I feel that you had given yourself, your loving self enough to your ws. It seems rather unfair that you need to keep giving all your love and care to him if he does not meet your emotional needs. 

Some husbands / wives / people can be so selfish and do take advantage. You need to look after yourself and you need to think far more about yourself. From what I read in your posts, you are making progress in this.

Wasn't there a book called, "woman who love too much" published many years ago? I myself need to relearn how to focus on my life and my happiness so that when I'm ready, I will not live with his BS for the rest of my life.


----------



## Omegaa

daisygirl 41;1279818
Hs phone was on the work surface earlier said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/size]


I have a similar thinking re. mobile phone. 
Having said that, I do hear cheating h / w do have a separate mobile for playing away..So, chances of finding anything on his regular mobile is next to nil...

Or your wh had left it there deliberately, for you to see that he's all innocent. 

I still don't know if mine had finished his affair completely after this was found out. After he was found out, I discovered that he saw her again. I'm picking up a vibe that he hadn't cut the cord completely. If this is what you were also wondering, maybe, your intuition is telling you something.

I tell you this. When I am ready to go, I will.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Dear God, those poor precious babies and their devastated families in CT. These kinds of tragedies, literally, paralyze me. This world is full of so much sadness and wrong doing, but this is heartbreak on a whole different kind of level.... My heart is breaking...... </3
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. Why can't we realize that the need for mental hospitals and clinics, and psychiatric professionals is greater than ever. In the days of my youth, troubled people could get help, now they just get drugged.


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Regret's affair lasted 5 years. On Dday my daughter was 6. My car had been paid off. My flying career was 10 years. I had just turned 44, she had just turned 42.
> 
> It is hard, man. It is.
> 
> But even when there are dark clouds and lighting flashing and thunder splitting the eardrums...the sun is still shining.
> 
> We just can't see it at that point.


5 YEARS? Really ?Somedaydig, I haven't read too many stories here on TAM, but I think that you just might be the person I should be listening to. How do you do it? You must have the patience of Job. It makes my situation sound a bit silly.


----------



## cpacan

Double post... Or so it seemed 15 minutes of typing gone


----------



## Rookie4

betrayed1 said:


> wow...I told EI roughly the same thing just the other day. I was so closed off and shut down and the things I missed out on. We were cuddling on the couch and I realized how many of those experiences I missed. And how EI would have given anything to have had them then. It made me so sad for EI, because that's when she suffered and hurt and she did it alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


B1, this is something I've been thinking about for a few months now. It seems to me that when you found out about your wife's affair , that you took a very mature and proactive approach to it. Unlike me, who let my anger and pain blind me to my ex-wife's pleas for another chance, but also it blinded me to any thought of reconciliation, and all of the positive things she has done since.
When we were meeting with the lawyers before the divorce, I admitted that I wasn't blameless about the state of our marriage, but that did not excuse her cheating. Perhaps I should also admit to her that possibly (no, make that probably)I was too bitter and resentful and should have at least tried to solve our issues together.


----------



## happyman64

> Perhaps I should also admit to her that possibly (no, make that probably)I was too bitter and resentful and should have at least tried to solve our issues together.


No probably. Do it. If you feel that way then why would you not say that to her.

And it is never too late to solve your issues together.

What? Did you really think a piece of paper that says "Divorce" on it would solve everything between the two of you?

We have seen divorced couples reconcile on TAM before.

And there is no shame if you come to the realization that you still love your wife.

I think over the next few months you are going to realize just how great your capacity to forgive really is.

How strong your love for her still is.

I am rarely wrong and I certainly do not want to put thoughts in your head or words in your mouth.

So take your time. And enjoy Xmas.

PM me your home address so I know where to send the mistletoe...

No matter what enjoy your family together this holiday. 

HM64


----------



## ChangingMe

happyman64 said:


> No probably. Do it. If you feel that way then why would you not say that to her.
> 
> And it is never too late to solve your issues together.
> 
> What? Did you really think a piece of paper that says "Divorce" on it would solve everything between the two of you?
> 
> We have seen divorced couples reconcile on TAM before.
> 
> And there is no shame if you come to the realization that you still love your wife.
> 
> I think over the next few months you are going to realize just how great your capacity to forgive really is.
> 
> How strong your love for her still is.
> 
> I am rarely wrong and I certainly do not want to put thoughts in your head or words in your mouth.
> 
> So take your time. And enjoy Xmas.
> 
> PM me your home address so I know where to send the mistletoe...
> 
> No matter what enjoy your family together this holiday.
> 
> HM64


:iagree:

You and she are in different places now then you were 2 years ago. The initial raw hurt and anger has subsided, and now you can work through your feelings in a calmer way. You two have grown, but clearly it hasn't taken you away from each other. 

Rookie, I'm really looking forward to seeing how your story plays out. I'm won't say that I'm rarely wrong, but I do think I see a happy ending in the works.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, one thing my daughter told me once was that her mom never took off her wedding ring, not in 2 years and I asked her about it and she said it was to remind her of her sin and what that sin cost her. If she ever wore a scarlett letter, she sowed it on herself, and wore it for everyone to see.


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> I know it's corny and cliche but I am in love. I spent the last 15 yrs closed . I was a cold unfeeling bastard, really...nothing got though. Man the stuff I missed.


I really do love you. I hope you know what a great man you truly are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> I really do love you. I hope you know what a great man you truly are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thats good stuff
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Unlike me, who let my anger and pain blind me to my ex-wife's pleas for another chance, but also it blinded me to any thought of reconciliation, and all of the positive things she has done since.
> When we were meeting with the lawyers before the divorce, I admitted that I wasn't blameless about the state of our marriage, but that did not excuse her cheating.


That's what my recent post about humility was about. I posted a waywards perspective because I learned to practice humility from my (former cheating) wife.


> Perhaps I should also admit to her that possibly (no, make that probably) I was too bitter and resentful and should have at least tried to solve our issues together.


She knows you, for 25 years. So she knows. If you really think it you should say to her nonetheless. Radical honesty for now on (read about how implement it in marriagebuilders). Love is not power games, be vulnerable again, take that risk. If you are humble enough to accept your own failures and shortcomings she will respect, admire and love you even more. And you will be closer to the man you always wanted to be. Well, that was my case.


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> 5 YEARS? Really ?Somedaydig, I haven't read too many stories here on TAM, but I think that you just might be the person I should be listening to. How do you do it? You must have the patience of Job. It makes my situation sound a bit silly.


Yeah, man...5 years of a physical affair which for the first year was in the basement of my house. That said, I don't have any more insight than anyone else going through this crap. 5 hours, 5 days, 5 weeks, 5 months, or 5 years... In the end we're all in the same boat. My hurt is no more than another BS. Maybe a different circumstance, but that's about it.

How do I do it? I'll tell you when I truly figure that out and write a new book. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I guess I'm lucky.
Though CSS did see him four times it was never for more than 5 minutes in the daytime at the K-mart parking lot.
CSS was nervouse and would flee,afraid she might be seen.
The text were not sexting in nature but plenty of talk about me and a lot of I love yous.
Still hurts like hell.
I take my hat off to you guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by margrace
> 
> with his silence, he doesn't give me a lot to go on in terms of rebuilding trust. and i don't trust him yet.
> 
> maybe i need to think a bit less about what i am getting and a bit more about what i am giving.


Concentrate on building yourself up body, mind, and spirit. Utilize everything that is positive in building you up including good counseling. *Get into a position that you can live with him or without him.* Then you will be in a much better condition to decide what to do about your marriage.

If you are strong enough in body, mind, and spirit, then yes think about giving to him. Do not sacrifice your well being for him right now. *You are the most important right now not him. You did not shatter the marriage he did.*

Your husband should either build you up or remain silent; he should never do anything to bring you down. If he is really serious and fully remorseful and does all that he needs to do to put the marriage back together; then you have a man that well be very reluctant to fall back into being a betrayer again. His job is to do everything he can to build up your trust and that means with ACTIONS more than words. He is going to have to do this for a long time not weeks, not months, but years.


----------



## SomedayDig

Cal... Put your hat back on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I think you guys are stronger than me.
I do appreciate the motivation.
You all are alright.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I, for one, appreciate that comment Cal. However, strength can't be measured like that. Why? Because that would mean that those who choose divorce are weak. Not that you're implying that at all. That's simply how I see it. 

You are strong. You're strong in Calvin's way. You can't be strong in B1's way or Dig's way or anyone elses way. We might have the same destination, but we all walk our own paths to get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Thanks for saying that,no I dont mean any offense.
Everyone here,everyone, is strong in their own way.I dont mean physically.
It can take balls to R,it can take balls to D.
Everyone here has taken a serious deep look at them selves and are doing what they need to do.
I really do admire the people on this thread.
Hope I'm making sense,been gone from home a lot last couple days for OT at work,tired like a mother. 
Now gota go do some stuff for my Dad.
Hope I wasnt taken the wrong way guys,I respect all of you.Really do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

No dude... What you said is absolutely fine!! I was putting MY spin on it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> No dude... What you said is absolutely fine!! I was putting MY spin on it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MY personal spin on it is that the people who post on this thread..... Whether it is all the time or even those who just check in occasionally, are the best, most awesome, strong, intelligent, humble, forgiving and amazing individuals ever....... Not that I am biased in any way, mind you.... It's just my humble opinion! ;-)

Now, I HAVE to log off before B1 catches me.... I am supposed to be getting ready to go out to dinner with my awesome, strong, intelligent, humble, forgiving, amazing and, might I add, talented and handsome husband. We're going to dinner and then doing a little more X-Mas shopping. My up and down moods are "up" today, so we're going to take advantage of that. Who knows, maybe B1 will even "take advantage" of me when we get back home. LOL I do love the way he looks at me through his Testosterone colored glasses.

Take care,
EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Stupid mobile device won't let me hit LIKE!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Stupid mobile device won't let me hit LIKE!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you just did Dig.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I just love coming to this thread. I feel so good after reading all of your posts. Please never stop.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> MY personal spin on it is that the people who post on this thread..... Whether it is all the time or even those who just check in occasionally, are the best, most awesome, strong, intelligent, humble, forgiving and amazing individuals ever....... Not that I am biased in any way, mind you.... It's just my humble opinion! ;-)


We miss _some_ people who don't post on this thread very much any more...


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> I think you guys are stronger than me.
> I do appreciate the motivation.
> You all are alright.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, don't be removing your headgear for me. Somedays I feel like the biggest fool on earth.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Calvin, don't be removing your headgear for me. Somedays I feel like the biggest fool on earth.


Youre really thinking this through Rookie.
Youre no fool.No one on here is.
EI and B1's thread is serious yet has a sense of humor also.
I've seen some fools on Tams but not here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

hi everyone:

good to catch up with you all today! the last time i wrote, it was to say that i was feeling tired and down about the whole R rollercoaster -- thank you to everyone who wrote in after that. it really helped me get through a tough week.

with a WH who doesn't easily talk about feelings, i was feeling like it was all on me to be the engine for our conversations, for our work together, and it was beginning to feel like too much for me.

then this morning, WH told me that he was willing to go back to MC right after the holidays. now that's a wonderful present -- and today does happen to be my birthday 

our therapist is really wise and skillful so this gives me a little boost of hope... 

xoxo mg


----------



## calvin

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> good to catch up with you all today! the last time i wrote, it was to say that i was feeling tired and down about the whole R rollercoaster -- thank you to everyone who wrote in after that. it really helped me get through a tough week.
> 
> with a WH who doesn't easily talk about feelings, i was feeling like it was all on me to be the engine for our conversations, for our work together, and it was beginning to feel like too much for me.
> 
> then this morning, WH told me that he was willing to go back to MC right after the holidays. now that's a wonderful present -- and today does happen to be my birthday
> 
> our therapist is really wise and skillful so this gives me a little boost of hope...
> 
> xoxo mg


Happy Birthday marg!!!!,
With us men it can be hard to open up and lay our feelings out there.If he can do that you both will feel so much better.
Good to hear about MC,hopefully the counselor can open his eyes a bit and plant a seed in his head.
This stuff is hard but in the end,if you guys can reach and grab that golden ring,I dont know how to say it but life will be much better and a lot less stressfull.
I think he's afraid to open up and not be a "man".
I kinda wish you could get him on here but not quite sure if thats a good idea.
Praying for you both also marge,hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

pidge70 said:


> I really do love you. I hope you know what a great man you truly are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can I like this twice?


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Can I like this twice?


I like it,she is true joe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

calvin said:


> Happy Birthday marg!!!!,
> With us men it can be hard to open up and lay our feelings out there.If he can do that you both will feel so much better.
> Good to hear about MC,hopefully the counselor can open his eyes a bit and plant a seed in his head.
> This stuff is hard but in the end,if you guys can reach and grab that golden ring,I dont know how to say it but life will be much better and a lot less stressfull.
> I think he's afraid to open up and not be a "man".
> I kinda wish you could get him on here but not quite sure if thats a good idea.
> Praying for you both also marge,hang in there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thank you calvin!!! so was it hard for you to open up too? yes, i think he is afraid in exactly the way that you say. i have thought many times of his maybe coming on here. who knows, maybe one of these days it will happen!


----------



## calvin

margrace said:


> thank you calvin!!! so was it hard for you to open up too? yes, i think he is afraid in exactly the way that you say. i have thought many times of his maybe coming on here. who knows, maybe one of these days it will happen!


Yes its hard to open up or we are not considered "men",that thinking is all wrong.
When CSS told me I was not manly for crying when I knew something was going on, told me that I better never cry in front of her again under any circumstance..even a death in the family.
Us men dont want to appear weak,when really we are being weak by not letting some of our emotions out there.
Since I did tear up to her a week ago things are better.
She doesnt think of me any less,I know it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

happy birthday margrace....and glad to hear your hubby is open to MC. Hope is a great thing isn't 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> happy birthday margrace....and glad to hear your hubby is open to MC. Hope is a great thing isn't
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hope isnt a plan but without hope I dont see the best laid out plan working.
Hope is a very powerfull force that can keeps us going untill we have a plan.
Hope drives us,it keeps us going.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> Yes its hard to open up or we are not considered "men",that thinking is all wrong.
> When CSS told me I was not manly for crying when I knew something was going on, told me that I better never cry in front of her again under any circumstance..even a death in the family.
> Us men dont want to appear weak,when really we are being weak by not letting some of our emotions out there.
> Since I did tear up to her a week ago things are better.
> She doesnt think of me any less,I know it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just want to clarify..I didn't say don't ever cry, what Calvin meant was that is what his thinking was when I said something about it being unmanly when he was crying (I must have said it yes, I don't remember saying it but he says I did and that is a horrible thing to say) anyway he took it as "never ever cry, especially in front of me"..btw HAPPY BIRTHDAY Margrace!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Yeah sorry,I worded that wrong.She never said not to cry in front of her again but I did take it as a sign that I better never do it again.
Yes...sigh,she told me it was not manly to cry like that.
It did make me wonder if she thought the POS was more of a man than me.
I know thats not true.
Difference between the POSOM and a pizza?
A pizza can feed a family of four.
I suport my family and I do send money to my adoptive bro in Ky.
He's always been there for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Yeah sorry,I worded that wrong.She never said not to cry in front of her again but I did take it as a sign that I better never do it again.
> Yes...sigh,she told me it was not manly to cry like that.
> It did make me wonder if she thought the POS was more of a man than me.
> I know thats not true.
> Difference between the POSOM and a pizza?
> A pizza can feed a family of four.
> I suport my family and I do send money to my adoptive bro in Ky.
> He's always been there for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are a good man Calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

betrayed1 said:


> You are a good man Calvin.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Whoops.
Thanks B1,youre alright too,I admire you and EI and the job you guys have done.
This thread has spawned some heartaches and success stories,some of the stories are still in the making but I dont see any reason why the people who post here cant make it.
I can tell you there is not a single person on here I dont like.
Good people with real life stories and real struggles.
Brave people.
The New Year looks like a New Year for us all.
A new start for us all.
I've been getting a little happy here and there lately.
Ok,I'm done with the sappy crap,going to go do something manly now,like have a Pitbull go after me with my hands duct taped behind my back,make that two Pits.
I got a cup on,its good!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Whoops.
> 
> I've been getting a little happy here and there lately.
> Ok,I'm done with the sappy crap,going to go do something manly now,like have a Pitbull go after me with my hands duct taped behind my back,make that two Pits.
> I got a cup on,its good!!!


Calvin,

You goofball, Pits are among the most loving dogs on the planet Earth. They used to be known as "nanny" dogs for their loyalty to and protection of children. Then, they got into the hands of evil people. But, again, they are usually very, very loving dogs unless they've been mistreated or abused.

I'm glad that you've been feeling happier lately.... that's always a good thing!


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> .....WH told me that he was willing to go back to MC right after the holidays. now that's a wonderful present -- and today does happen to be my birthday
> 
> xoxo mg


Happy, happy birthday sweet lady! <3 Hopefully, the next year will bring an even happier one for you!


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> I know it's corny and cliche but I am in love. I spent the last 15 yrs closed . I was a cold unfeeling bastard, really...nothing got though. Man the stuff I missed.





pidge70 said:


> I really do love you. I hope you know what a great man you truly are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





joe kidd said:


> Can I like this twice?


Get a room, you two! This is a family friendly thread!


----------



## calvin

Sorry EI,Its how the dog was raised,I know that.
Great now I have to do something real manly.
Going to a farm in Newton County to get my balls ripped off by a combine,that is if CSS will give them back first. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Happy, happy birthday, Margrace! I hope it has been a great one for you ~ you deserve it!

And I'm with you, Calvin -I hope 2013 is a much better year for all of us. I cannot wait to see 2012 far, far in the past.


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> Sorry EI,Its how the dog was raised,I know that.
> Great now I have to do something real manly.
> Going to a farm in Newton County to get my balls ripped off by a combine,that is if CSS will give them back first.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Darn Calvin, I knew CSS is your world but now that I know what she is holding in her hands I can understand how she is your "whole" world.

My New Years Eve wish for you is that she gives them back to you!!
:lol:

Have a good night buddy.

HM64


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Darn Calvin, I knew CSS is your world but now that I know what she is holding in her hands I can understand how she is your "whole" world.
> 
> My New Years Eve wish for you is that she gives them back to you!!
> :lol:
> 
> Have a good night buddy.
> 
> HM64


They are on her riew view mirror,I want them back. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Uh, guys, I don't want to make too big of a deal about this, but I kissed my ex wife on the lips , this afternoon, for the first time in 2 1/2 years.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, It's all EI's fault.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, It's all EI's fault.


I know...... I'm good like that!  Tell your wife she can thank me later!!! 

*Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!* 

Oh, and get a room, would ya? Ask Joe, he should know where you can find a good one! 

~EI


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, It's all EI's fault.


I like that.From now on I blame EI for everything.
Hey,someones got to be the fallguy,right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I like that.From now on I blame EI for everything.
> Hey,someones got to be the fallguy,right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, I can handle it..... I'm used to it.... Go for it!!!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Hey, I can handle it..... I'm used to it.... Go for it!!!


Na,you just took all the fun out of it EI.
How you been doing anyway?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Na,you just took all the fun out of it EI.
> How you been doing anyway?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been so busy, lately, I feel like I'm running in circles. Every time I check something off of my "To Do List," it seems like I have to add three more things in it's place.

At the moment, I am waiting for our s/n son's medical transportation bus to pick him up for his ride to adult daycare. As of now, it is an hour late. Never mind that I have an appointment this morning at 10:00 a.m. that I need to be getting ready for. Hmmmm..... let's see what else..... I am only about half way finished with my Christmas shopping and I have sooooo much wrapping to do, already. I need to go to the grocery. In between school at work, my boys are coming and going at all hours of the day and night and I am trying to make sure that they are all fed in between their comings and goings. I have discovered that even when your adult sons move out that they still bring their dirty laundry home and stop by here to eat in between their jobs.


Oooooooh, you didn't ask me _what I had to do,_ you asked me _how I was doing._ I'm pretty good.... because if I wasn't busy, I'd probably lose my mind.

So, how are you, Calvin? And, how is your Dad? I have been reading the threads.... I have just been spending a little more time offline than online.... I needed to find some balance in my life and I realized that I was spending waaaaay too much time on TAM for my own good. I needed a little break and I think it did me (and B1) a world of good for me to spend less time on TAM for a while. The Reconciliation thread is a very "friendly/safe" place for me, but there are other threads on TAM (not all) that can be very destructive to my emotional well-being. I don't do B1, myself or our children any good if I get in such a low psychological state of mind that I start believing/accepting all of the "canned venom" that gets spewed towards WS's (there are only a handful of *TAM*_ers _ who consistently do this) on a daily basis. I know who I am, B1 knows who I am and our children know who I am. I'm flawed.... I know that, I've made choices that I wish I hadn't. I've hurt people that I love. I've hurt myself, as well. But, I am NOT a terrible person. I DO have character, morals and values. I love my husband with all of my heart..... (I won't lie..... there was a long period of time when I didn't.... and I didn't believe that he loved me, either,) I love my children, but I hurt them, too, and I _haaaaaaaate_ that. There isn't one thing that I can do that will undo the horrible, selfish, destructive choice that I made to have an affair. I wish there was. What I will do is spend the rest of my life loving B1 and our children, being the best wife and mother than I can possibly be. I've come to believe that it must take super-human strength for a BS to not only forgive their WS, but to choose to reconcile and create a new union, a new marriage. I used to doubt B1's love for me..... I will never question his love for me, again. It's taken me some time to wrap my head around it.... to believe in it, to trust in it..... Again, super-human strength that man has. I will never, again, give him a reason to doubt my love or my commitment to him and our marriage. He has been so good to me the last 6 1/2 months...... how and why, I don't know. But, I know that I'm blessed..... and for that I will always be grateful.

_The bus is here, gotta run............................_

Take Care,
~EI


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> Uh, guys, I don't want to make too big of a deal about this, but I kissed my ex wife on the lips , this afternoon, for the first time in 2 1/2 years.


Pffftt....this is TAM Rookie!!!

We KNOW what kissing really means....!!!



:rofl::rofl: Just messing with ya. It was a perfect setup, though!


----------



## B1

I love you too EI, YES I REALLY love you....yeah..yeah get a room, I know 

I am still doing really good, spending a little less time on TAM, and much less time obsessing over the A. I had a image flash in my head the other day, it was horrible, but it was one and only one and the first one in days.

I have found the worse thing now are triggers from t.v. shows. Where you will see infidelity, you will see two people kissing, or worse, and one of them is cheating. It really hurts me to see that.

I have started the process of weaning myself off one of my anti-depressants. I was taking a booster, abilify, and it's been almost 2 weeks now since I stopped taking it, and so far so good. No dark place, no depression, just a mild headache for a week. Next will be the anti-depressant. I am taking it slowly and if I see that dark place I will go back on them.


----------



## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> Uh, guys, I don't want to make too big of a deal about this, but I kissed my ex wife on the lips , this afternoon, for the first time in 2 1/2 years.


Let's not make a big deal out of then 
How did it feel, wrong or good, and what did she say?


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Uh, guys, I don't want to make too big of a deal about this, but I kissed my ex wife on the lips , this afternoon, for the first time in 2 1/2 years.


Oooo, coodies. Lol


----------



## bfree

betrayed1 said:


> I love you too EI, YES I REALLY love you....yeah..yeah get a room, I know
> 
> I am still doing really good, spending a little less time on TAM, and much less time obsessing over the A. I had a image flash in my head the other day, it was horrible, but it was one and only one and the first one in days.
> 
> *I have found the worse thing now are triggers from t.v. shows. Where you will see infidelity, you will see two people kissing, or worse, and one of them is cheating. It really hurts me to see that.*
> I have started the process of weaning myself off one of my anti-depressants. I was taking a booster, abilify, and it's been almost 2 weeks now since I stopped taking it, and so far so good. No dark place, no depression, just a mild headache for a week. Next will be the anti-depressant. I am taking it slowly and if I see that dark place I will go back on them.


My wife and I love Liam Neeson. We watch all his movies. There is one he did recently where after his wife dies he finds out she was cheating on him throughout their marriage. I can't remember the title but I haven't been able to bring myself to see that one.


----------



## calvin

I'm doing good EI,same as you busy a lot of the time,get tired of it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

SomedayDig said:


> Pffftt....this is TAM Rookie!!!
> 
> We KNOW what kissing really means....!!!
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl::rofl: Just messing with ya. It was a perfect setup, though!


:lol: Ok, this really did make me LOL!


----------



## ChangingMe

Happy Monday, TAMers!

Rookie, I too want more details about the kiss! Ok, not the kiss itself -you can keep that to yourself -but how it felt, how you both reacted, etc. I saw on your other post about the plan for her to spend Christmas Eve in your bed, and I too see that being a hard thing to resist, especially now that you two have kissed. Not that I think you having sex with her would necessarily be a bad thing, but I think you really should think through it and decide what you want before you get under the sheets together. Take this from a person who used to try to live in oblivion and pretend that I couldn't see where things were headed. That got me in a LOT of trouble, so I am doing my best to keep my eyes wide open from here on out. I highly recommend you do the same. 

B1, glad you are doing well weaning off the Abilify. Are you being monitored by a doctor as you wean off this stuff? It can cause some issues if you don't, so be careful. And IKWYM about movies & shows. One of the only shows DD and I watch together is "The Office," and I swear this whole season has been about infidelity. First, Pam thought Jim was cheating, and then Oscar is having an affair with Angela's husband, which brought up how she had cheated on him in the past with Dwight . . . I haven't really wanted to watch it. It's agonizing, and though she seemed a bit hurt about Oscar, the show is a comedy, so of course you don't see the real pain that infidelity causes, and it makes it look a bit like a joke, which makes it even worse.

Joe & Pidge, Calvin & CSS, I'm glad things are going well. I love hearing it! 

EI, once again, I feel like you have written out what's in my head. I feel similar to how you do about myself post-A. DD and I will hit the 6 month mark on Wednesday, and I remember my IC counselor telling me as I wept in my first session that I would like myself better 6 months from then. Thank God that is true, because I could not have hated myself more at that point. I still have such shame and anger at myself for hurting my husband, family, and friends like I did, but I am seeing areas that I need to work on, and I am working like crazy on them. I can see some small improvements, and the greatest thing is that DD has seen some too, and has acknowledged them. So I don't hate myself anymore. I still hate what I did, even more than I hated it 6 months ago, because I better grasp the devastation I caused. Six months ago, I was still in shock at exploding my world, and there was more selfishness there, I'm not going to lie. I felt bad for hurting my family, but there was also so much worry over what it meant for me -would I have to get my own place? would I lose my job? Me-me-me. I really have trouble recognizing that girl. I don't even call her a woman, because I sure as hell wasn't acting like one. I was acting like a selfish little girl. I have a long way to go, but I have done a lot of growing up over the past 6 months. And though I wouldn't say I'm proud of the changes I've made, since really, all I'm doing is being a good wife and mother and living with some integrity, I am at least happy to see that I have been capable of making changes, since at first I was scared that I wouldn't be able to, and that maybe this A did define me and this horrible person was who I really was. I do not believe that anymore, and I refuse to let it be true. I'm far from perfect, but I'm not 100% flawed either. None of us are. We all have the capability to grow and change if we want it bad enough.

Have a great week, friends. DD will be having about 2 weeks off work starting Wednesday, and I'm taking Wednesday off myself. The kids have school, so we'll spend the morning together, then we're taking them to this Christmas Ice exhibit that's supposed to be really cool that afternoon. DD has his first flying lesson Thursday morning, which I'm excited about too -SO glad he's finally doing this! We have MC Friday evening, then we'll head to my IL's that evening (they live 10 min from us) and spend the weekend there celebrating Christmas with all of DD's family. Christmas Eve, my parents will spend the night at our house and we'll do presents and everything Christmas morning, then have brunch. I'm looking forward to it all. The kids are counting down the days till Christmas, and DD and I finished up our shopping yesterday. I think it's going to be a wonderful holiday!


----------



## cpacan

Thank you all for your updates. I love returning here when other threads trigger to many unwanted feelings in me.

Update from the ice cold Scandinavian division of TAM-supporters. I am getting quite used to focusing my mind on the present and living by the power of now. For me, it’s the way to get by and not go nuts. I know I can’t change what happened, and although I never imagined my life like this, I know it’s the way it is at the moment. Also the concept of “A thought never leaves the mind of the thinker” appeals to me. Today I realize that the only one I punish by being angry, moody, sad etc. is me.

Well, how about this? Friday, I got a message from the woman I met when I used the free pass I got after my wife’s affair. She just wanted to let me know that she no longer has a boyfriend and suggested that we should meet. That made me think quite a bit and I must say that I understand perfectly how someone could slide into an affair almost without knowing it.

I found myself thinking for just a few seconds “why not? Will I ever have the relationship I want with my wife at home?” And then after that thought also just for a second “My wife would have the chance to see how much it hurts”.

For me there are three disturbing issues at hand as a result of this. One… I seem to miss something at home, I miss intimacy, not sexual, but emotional, since I even have the thought. Two… If I need to slap myself to avoid a bad decision in this situation, what would happen if my wife is being approached by her AP or one of the other flirts she used to have? I am absolutely not confident that she has the strength or will power (or desire?) to refuse. And three… I hate it! I hate the fact that I struggle with this sh!t when I feel so close to letting it all go – disappointing. And don’t worry, I know I won’t take the offer.

Meanwhile at home, I am showering my wife and kids with love and attention, because that’s all I can do. I want to be a giver. And it’s x-mas time, and I love to see my kids excitement and joy while waiting for Christmas eve with grandparents, uncles, aunts and cousins. I love the fact that I am able to focus on this in the middle of everything. I couldn’t handle that one year ago.

I wish you all, both on the struggling and the supporting side, a blessed and wonderful Christmas with your families. Take care.


----------



## calvin

CM,you related to EI?
Kidding,I really like reading both of your guys post,they motivate me and keep giving me hope.
I'm happy to see so many on here doing good.
One thing I must stop doing is going on fb under my sons user name and going back and seeing the exchanges between my wife,the POS and what I thought was our friend.
I did tell this friend to stay away for good,I thought she was also a friend of mine.
I backtracked and told her I was sorry but re-reading those post leads me to believe she did condone the A.
Unlike her other friends who told her to knock it off and get her head out of here ass....sigh,I wont do it again.
I just have this need to see if the POS is posting anything but he has'nt in a long time since his work took away his free phones.
All that d!ck did was lie,lie,lie and lie some more.
He never wanted a computer or phone with the internet? No,its because he cant afford it and no company will give him a contract because his credit is in the toilet,yeah he told CSS his credit was great and he was a real success story.
I really feel like going to his work and waiting for him to get off todaand give him what he deserves.
I wont...just venting .....ugh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

EI said:


> I used to doubt B1's love for me..... I will never question his love for me, again. It's taken me some time to wrap my head around it.... to believe in it, to trust in it.


He never doubted it.
Do you really, really believe it? You do.


----------



## Acabado

ChangingMe said:


> HI have a long way to go, but I have done a lot of growing up over the past 6 months. And though I wouldn't say I'm proud of the changes I've made, since really, all I'm doing is being a good wife and mother and living with some integrity, I am at least happy to see that I have been capable of making changes, since at first I was scared that I wouldn't be able to, and that maybe this A did define me and this horrible person was who I really was.* I do not believe that anymore, and I refuse to let it be true*. I'm far from perfect, but I'm not 100% flawed either. None of us are. We all have the capability to grow and change if we want it bad enough.


"like it" x 1000
:iagree:


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> My wife and I love Liam Neeson. We watch all his movies. There is one he did recently where after his wife dies he finds out she was cheating on him throughout their marriage. I can't remember the title but I haven't been able to bring myself to see that one.


Are you sure you're not thinking of the movie "The Descendants" with George Clooney? Under normal circumstances, I would have wanted to see that movie, myself. But, B1 has a very hard time even watching Hallmark movies or any TV show with infidelity..... so, we'll not be seeing that movie, either. It's not a big sacrifice......... I loooooooooove Pawn Stars......... NOT..... But, I DO love B1!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> He never doubted it.
> Do you really, really believe it? You do.


YES, I DO!!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> Let's not make a big deal out of then
> How did it feel, wrong or good, and what did she say?


Yes, let's do make a big deal! ;-)...... I have to control my urge to break out in the song we used to tease kids with in elementary school when we found out that a boy and a girl "liked" each other....... 

Ahem...... It goes like this: (Rookie) and (ex-wife) sittin' in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G...... First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes (ex-wife) pushing a baby carriage. Of course, we'd have to make all kinds of adjustments on THIS one......... okaaaaaaay, nevermind! 

Y'all probably didn't know that I could sing like that, did you? Ya learn something new everyday around here!

Where ya been posting, lately, cpacan? Have you been seeing "other threads???" LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Uh, guys, I don't want to make too big of a deal about this, but I kissed my ex wife on the lips , this afternoon, for the first time in 2 1/2 years.


And I did not mail you the mistletoe yet!

What a bummer. But so awesome!!!

How did it feel Rookie?


----------



## happyman64

EI



> So, how are you, Calvin? And, how is your Dad? I have been reading the threads.... I have just been spending a little more time offline than online.... I needed to find some balance in my life and I realized that I was spending waaaaay too much time on TAM for my own good. I needed a little break and I think it did me (and B1) a world of good for me to spend less time on TAM for a while. The Reconciliation thread is a very "friendly/safe" place for me, but there are other threads on TAM (not all) that can be very destructive to my emotional well-being. I don't do B1, myself or our children any good if I get in such a low psychological state of mind that I start believing/accepting all of the "canned venom" that gets spewed towards WS's (there are only a handful of TAMers who consistently do this) on a daily basis. I know who I am, B1 knows who I am and our children know who I am. I'm flawed.... I know that, I've made choices that I wish I hadn't. I've hurt people that I love. I've hurt myself, as well. But, I am NOT a terrible person. I DO have character, morals and values. I love my husband with all of my heart..... (I won't lie..... there was a long period of time when I didn't.... and I didn't believe that he loved me, either,) I love my children, but I hurt them, too, and I haaaaaaaate that.*There isn't one thing that I can do that will undo the horrible, selfish, destructive choice that I made to have an affair. *I wish there was. *What I will do is spend the rest of my life loving B1 and our children, being the best wife and mother than I can possibly be. I*'ve come to believe that it must take super-human strength for a BS to not only forgive their WS, but to choose to reconcile and create a new union, a new marriage. I used to doubt B1's love for me..... I will never question his love for me, again. It's taken me some time to wrap my head around it.... to believe in it, to trust in it..... Again, super-human strength that man has. I will never, again, give him a reason to doubt my love or my commitment to him and our marriage. He has been so good to me the last 6 1/2 months...... how and why, I don't know. But, I know that I'm blessed..... and for that I will always be grateful.


Look at the 2 sentences I bolded. There is something you can do. 

And you are doing it.

Never say Never. It does not suit you at all.

I think what you and B1 are doing is amazing. And you are owning your failures, fixing the issues and still loving B1 and your family.

Keep going. And never stop.

HM64


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> Where ya been posting, lately, cpacan? Have you been seeing "other threads???" LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I haven't been posting a lot. Like I said, it's x-mas time, and I have been pulling hair to be everywhere and make my family feel loved.

I have been reading other threads, yes, and got triggered by some of the hardballers, where everything is either black or white. I don't like that and try to ad some shades of gray


----------



## Almostrecovered

cpacan said:


> I don't like that and try to ad some shades of gray



just don't add 50 shades please


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> Let's not make a big deal out of then
> How did it feel, wrong or good, and what did she say?


It all started the other night from a PM to me from EI (so you see it really was her fault) we talked about a few things that I needed to say to my ex wife, as much for my own piece of mind as anything else.
So yesterday evening I called to see if she wanted to go out for a quick dinner and a walk . We went to a nice, quiet place (outback, LOL) and after dinner, go into the car because it was raining and I finally got up enough nerve to tell her what I wanted to. I thought she would be happy, but no, of course not, she started to BAWL, SOB, AND SHAKE. This went on for about an hour, she would cry , say thing slike she was so ashamed and sorry, how much she loves me ( make that how much she is IN love with me), how it is all her fault and calling herself every name in the book. NONE of which I ever called her, BTW. She looked up at me and she was a frigging mess, her hair down , her makeup all over the place, her eyes red and her nose running, so what else could I do? It was pretty wonderful. She said it was the happiest moment of her life.


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## Almostrecovered

Did you kiss the snot dripping out her nose and onto her lips?


----------



## cpacan

Almostrecovered said:


> just don't add 50 shades please


I promise, not my kind of literature, thats why I had that little hint in the post


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> It all started the other night from a PM to me from EI (so you see it really was her fault) we talked about a few things that I needed to say to my ex wife, as much for my own piece of mind as anything else.
> So yesterday evening I called to see if she wanted to go out for a quick dinner and a walk . We went to a nice, quiet place (outback, LOL) and after dinner, go into the car because it was raining and I finally got up enough nerve to tell her what I wanted to. I thought she would be happy, but no, of course not, she started to BAWL, SOB, AND SHAKE. This went on for about an hour, she would cry , say thing slike she was so ashamed and sorry, how much she loves me ( make that how much she is IN love with me), how it is all her fault and calling herself every name in the book. NONE of which I ever called her, BTW. She looked up at me and she was a frigging mess, her hair down , her makeup all over the place, her eyes red and her nose running, so what else could I do? It was pretty wonderful. She said it was the happiest moment of her life.


No lie, I sighed to myself when I finished reading this. That sounds perfect, Rookie. I'm happy for you both.


----------



## ChangingMe

Almostrecovered said:


> Did you kiss the snot dripping out her nose and onto her lips?


Aw, don't ruin it, AR! It was sweet! Let's not focus on the less-than-pretty details.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Did you kiss the snot dripping out her nose and onto her lips?


.....Probably....


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> .....Probably....


Then you still love her


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Almostrecovered said:


> Did you kiss the snot dripping out her nose and onto her lips?


AR, you are just twisted!


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> It all started the other night from a PM to me from EI (so you see it really was her fault) we talked about a few things that I needed to say to my ex wife, as much for my own piece of mind as anything else.
> So yesterday evening I called to see if she wanted to go out for a quick dinner and a walk . We went to a nice, quiet place (outback, LOL) and after dinner, go into the car because it was raining and I finally got up enough nerve to tell her what I wanted to. I thought she would be happy, but no, of course not, she started to BAWL, SOB, AND SHAKE. This went on for about an hour, she would cry , say thing slike she was so ashamed and sorry, how much she loves me ( make that how much she is IN love with me), how it is all her fault and calling herself every name in the book. NONE of which I ever called her, BTW. She looked up at me and she was a frigging mess, her hair down , her makeup all over the place, her eyes red and her nose running, so what else could I do? It was pretty wonderful. She said it was the happiest moment of her life.


That is soooooooo romantic! I think the whole crazy hair, mascara running, red eyes, runny nose is a great look, don't you? I suspect you're probably closer in age to B1 and myself than you are to some of these other youngins on this thread...... due the length of your marriage and college age kids..... So, there is a good chance that your (ex)wife has "big 80's hair" like yours truly. If so, you get the extra bonus of all that wet sticky hair spray, too! So cool..... LOL

Anyway, you're welcome for the advice...... Sounds like it worked out for you! Now, hopefully, I'm not going to have to give you step-by-step instructions. That was base 1......... You can count! ;-) The Reconcilers are all smiling for you, today!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> AR, you are just twisted!


I was wondering where you were today........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

I'll bet I'm the oldest person on this thread! 56.


----------



## pidge70

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I'll bet I'm the oldest person on this thread! 56.


You are old enough to be my big brother.......:smthumbup:


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> No lie, I sighed to myself when I finished reading this. That sounds perfect, Rookie. I'm happy for you both.


Thanks, CM, but this brings up an interesting situation. If I can kiss her when she looks like she has be out in the rain, what am I gonna do Christmas Eve, when she is really going to look spectacular? I was married to her for quite a while and she is one seriously hot woman, plus I know the kind of lingerie she wears. So how am I going to sleep side by side with her when she is wearing essentually nada? This might be a problem, a good problem, but a problem.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> Thanks, CM, but this brings up an interesting situation. If I can kiss her when she looks like she has be out in the rain, what am I gonna do Christmas Eve, when she is really going to look spectacular? I was married to her for quite a while and she is one seriously hot woman, plus I know the kind of lingerie she wears. So how am I going to sleep side by side with her when she is wearing essentually nada? This might be a problem, a good problem, but a problem.


This is where I was saying that you need to go into that night with eyes wide open. In case that's tough for you, let me point out what everyone else can see:

If you and she attempt to sleep in the same bed on Christmas Eve, you will have sex with her. 

Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying that I would be extremely surprised if it didn't happen. So if you really don't want to, then she needs to sleep somewhere else. If you want to and feel like this is where you want things to go, then bring some champagne and mistletoe into the bedroom and have a great time.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> That is soooooooo romantic! I think the whole crazy hair, mascara running, red eyes, runny nose is a great look, don't you? I suspect you're probably closer in age to B1 and myself than you are to some of these other youngins on this thread...... due the length of your marriage and college age kids..... So, there is a good chance that your (ex)wife has "big 80's hair" like yours truly. If so, you get the extra bonus of all that wet sticky hair spray, too! So cool..... LOL
> 
> Anyway, you're welcome for the advice...... Sounds like it worked out for you! Now, hopefully, I'm not going to have to give you step-by-step instructions. That was base 1......... You can count! ;-) The Reconcilers are all smiling for you, today!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's one of my biggest problems, EI. She's the kind of woman that even when she looks bad, she looks good. Do you remember an actress named Maude Adams? She was a "Bond girl" in the 80's. My ex sort of looks like her, body and face wise, with much darker hair. Damn, I'm in serious trouble.


----------



## old timer

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I'll bet I'm the oldest person on this thread! 56.


Not quite, I'll be 59 on Christmas Eve


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> So how am I going to sleep side by side with her when she is wearing essentually nada? This might be a problem, a good problem, but a problem.





Rookie4 said:


> Damn, I'm in serious trouble.


I would. Very serious. Damm
Try faking this

:sleeping:


----------



## happyman64

Rookie

I will solve your dilemma. Give her one piece pajamas on Xmas Eve as a gift.

And just to make it interesting make sure they have a flap in the back......

What a great problem to have. 

And yes if you kissed her snot and all you do still love her.

How old are you and her Rookie?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Thanks, CM, but this brings up an interesting situation. If I can kiss her when she looks like she has be out in the rain, what am I gonna do Christmas Eve, when she is really going to look spectacular? I was married to her for quite a while and she is one seriously hot woman, plus I know the kind of lingerie she wears. *So how am I going to sleep side by side with her when she is wearing essentually nada?* This might be a problem, a good problem, but a problem.



***********************************************

For today's lesson, Reconcilers, Rookie gives us an example of a *rhetorical question:* _ "So how am I going to sleep side by side with her when she is wearing essentially nada?"_

Any questions?


----------



## Almostrecovered

Spoons sex position - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Almostrecovered

just kidding!!


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> ***********************************************
> 
> For today's lesson, Reconcilers, Rookie gives us an example of a *rhetorical question:* _ "So how am I going to sleep side by side with her when she is wearing essentially nada?"_
> 
> Any questions?


Yeah, why has he even used the word sleep?


----------



## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> Spoons sex position - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


**cough** **cough** **gasp** **gasp** 

This is a family friendly thread AR....  If you're not careful, we'll lose our PG-13 rating and our tax-exempt status.......

Some people....... ??? :scratchhead:

Jus' kiddin'   LOL


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Yeah, why has he even used the word sleep?


Define: *"to sleep with"*



Almostrecovered said:


> Spoons sex position - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Any questions?

Okay, people, I've got wrapping to do............... 



_B1, what time are you coming home from work?_


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Define: *"to sleep with"*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any questions?
> 
> Okay, people, I've got wrapping to do...............
> 
> 
> 
> _B1, what time are you coming home from work?_


Youre rapping?
New screen name..".Biggie small EI"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> Not quite, I'll be 59 on Christmas Eve


That must have really sucked when you were a kid, to have your B-day next to Christmas.


----------



## Rookie4

happyman64 said:


> Rookie
> 
> I will solve your dilemma. Give her one piece pajamas on Xmas Eve as a gift.
> 
> And just to make it interesting make sure they have a flap in the back......
> 
> What a great problem to have.
> 
> And yes if you kissed her snot and all you do still love her.
> 
> How old are you and her Rookie?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mid 40's


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Spoons sex position - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


EI and AR, that is why I said "side by side", if we do spoons, I'm f*cked, literally and figuratively. The thought of her spooning and rubbing her a** up against me, has me headed for a cold shower.


----------



## Rookie4

On a sad note, I met my GF, today, and had a heart to heart with her. To make a long story short, I told her that there is a real posibility that my ex and I would get back together. I was very up front about it , saying that it was by no means certain, and would take a lot of time , but if she wanted to call it quits, I would understand.
She is a fine woman, and deserves much more and better from somebody, but I don't think it's me she needs, and I know that she can and will find somebody good.
She asked for some time to think about it, and I said for her to take all of the time she needs.


----------



## Rags

I'm glad that you see your GF as someone worthy of being treated properly. It's hard to do something like that, knowing it will cause distress, but better than the alternative.

Hope it goes well for her, and you.


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks, Rags, she is a really super Lady and regardless of the outcome , I will always have a soft spot for her.


----------



## B1

When I left his morning EI said, with a smile, and with Christmas music playing in the background, "I feel normal." 

I thought WOW what wonderful words to hear from her. I am SO glad she feels normal, which I think translates to.... I feel happy, content and like a wife and mom. 

Backing off the constant questions and talks was such the right thing to do. For her, for me and for our marriage. We are both experiencing peace now like never before.

Yes, I still struggle some, it's not gone but things have truly taken a turn for the better. We did spend about 30 minutes talking about the A last evening. We covered the things I still struggle with, and some things she is struggeling with. We really talked it out and then let it go and moved on to life.


----------



## EI

betrayed1 said:


> When I left his morning EI said, with a smile, and with Christmas music playing in the background, "I feel normal."
> 
> I thought WOW what wonderful words to hear from her. *I am SO glad she feels normal, which I think translates to.... I feel happy, content and like a wife and mom. *


Wow.... I must be one of the luckiest women in the world! My BS, who is also my B1 and my husband, is *SO glad that "I" feel normal.... happy, content and like a wife and a mom......*

_He_ wants _me_ to be happy..... and, _I_ want _him_ to be happy. I think we're on to something, now! 

Not quite 7 months ago we experienced one of the worst days of our lives...... followed by several more "worst" days..... Every once in a while, now, we have some very real moments of extreme happiness, joy, bliss, contentment, peace..... and HOPE! Every once in a while, the gigantic elephant in the room actually goes away for a while. He doesn't go very far and he always comes back.... but, sometimes he's not here, at all. I'm starting to have hope that one day that big, ugly, elephant is going to go away and stay away for good. I know that we'll never forget about the elephant.... and we shouldn't, but that elephant did force us to make some choices about our marriage. We were either going to fix what was broken in our marriage and in ourselves or accept defeat and move on.

I really didn't have any hope for our marriage 6 1/2 months ago. Today, I am nearly ecstatic.....

Gotta run....... I'm not coming home until my X-Mas shopping is done.............. 

Take care, 
~EI

P. S. I love you B1. Don't bring that nasty cold you're trying to get back home with you, today, okay? I don't have time to be sick!


----------



## bfree

For you B1 and EI. You guys got this. 


View attachment 2021


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I just want to thank everyone who sticks around to post on this thread. I have no idea if I'll ever be lucky enough to be one of you, but I hope you know how much it helps hearing small good things from people here amid all the pain we face. There are days when it's really hard to have that hope on my own, but reading a few posts here really helps to inspire me to renew my focus on what I'm working for and hope to be able to offer Matt. So thank you. Every day you change your lives and share that here, you change someone else's. I just thought you should know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I just want to thank everyone who sticks around to post on this thread. I have no idea if I'll ever be lucky enough to be one of you, but I hope you know how much it helps hearing small good things from people here amid all the pain we face. There are days when it's really hard to have that hope on my own, but reading a few posts here really helps to inspire me to renew my focus on what I'm working for and hope to be able to offer Matt. So thank you. Every day that you change your lives and share that, you change someone else's. I just thought you should know that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thats good to hear Mrs. M.
Stick around and you'll see some success stories in the making.Hard fought but worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I just want to thank everyone who sticks around to post on this thread. *I have no idea if I'll ever be lucky enough to be one of you,* but I hope you know how much it helps hearing small good things from people here amid all the pain we face. There are days when it's really hard to have that hope on my own, but reading a few posts here really helps to inspire me to renew my focus on what I'm working for and hope to be able to offer Matt. So thank you. Every day you change your lives and share that here, you change someone else's. I just thought you should know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Welcome to the Reconciliation thread, Mrs_Mathias. There is absolutely no criteria for being "one of us." Everyone is welcome to share their stories here. We've each had days when we were on the receiving end of encouragement and inspiration from others and days when we've all done our best to lift the spirits of someone else during difficult times.

This is not an exclusive thread. I think that most everyone who posts here has or has had threads of their own. It's just a nice gathering place for people to share their stories without fear of being bashed. We share our ups and downs, our struggles and our victories. I may be biased (I'm pretty sure that I am) but, I think we have some pretty amazing posters here. 

Thank you very much for the compliments about the thread. Please feel free to be a part of it! Good luck to you and your family. I think we've seen a "miracle" or two around here. A little hope goes a long way. 

Take care,
~EI


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes EI lots of ups and downs, lots of positive posts.. lots of everything. It is a great place for us all to come together, support eachother and I do feel it's easier to talk to everyone here rather than people I know in person. I've gotten alot of inspiration from your thread 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

My father once said to me "I don't pray for miracles, I make miracles. God has enough to do without me bothering him." All of you here have made miracles. Mrs M I really think you can too. Each and every fWS here has been where you are. Each and every BS has been where Matt is. Be the miracle.


----------



## calvin

I hate this club,I really do but since we're all here lets make some popcorn and have a beer.
The couples on here do motivate me and I love to see the progress that is going on here.
CSS is sleeping,rough day for her.
I knew she was going to get let go from her job but thought there was an outside chance she might keep it.
Its got me triggering like a son of a b!tch but I'm pushing it down.
I know the POS would not support her when life throws you a curveball,hell he cant support himself.Yet I'm still here.
I dont feel good right now.....screw it,everything will be fine....I know this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> I hate this club,I really do but since we're all here lets make some popcorn and have a beer.
> The couples on here do motivate me and I love to see the progress that is going on here.
> CSS is sleeping,rough day for her.
> I knew she was going to get let go from her job but thought there was an outside chance she might keep it.
> Its got me triggering like a son of a b!tch but I'm pushing it down.
> I know the POS would not support her when life throws you a curveball,hell he cant support himself.Yet I'm still here.
> I dont feel good right now.....screw it,everything will be fine....I know this
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here, one for you too calvin. You got this brother.

View attachment 2021


----------



## calvin

Thanks bfree,
She's a good girl,she really is.
She had a really bad day.I know she will bounce back.
Ugh,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I just want to thank everyone who sticks around to post on this thread. *I have no idea if I'll ever be lucky enough to be one of you,* but I hope you know how much it helps hearing small good things from people here amid all the pain we face. There are days when it's really hard to have that hope on my own, but reading a few posts here really helps to inspire me to renew my focus on what I'm working for and hope to be able to offer Matt. So thank you. Every day you change your lives and share that here, you change someone else's. I just thought you should know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I sincerely hope and pray that you and Matt will be that lucky!:smthumbup:


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I hate this club,I really do but since we're all here lets make some popcorn and have a beer.
> The couples on here do motivate me and I love to see the progress that is going on here.
> CSS is sleeping,rough day for her.
> I knew she was going to get let go from her job but thought there was an outside chance she might keep it.
> Its got me triggering like a son of a b!tch but I'm pushing it down.
> I know the POS would not support her when life throws you a curveball,hell he cant support himself.Yet I'm still here.
> I dont feel good right now.....screw it,everything will be fine....I know this
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, you and CSS are going to be okay. The job was causing CSS way more stress than any job should. In the long run that was not good for her and would not have been good for your reconciliation. It was a blessing in disguise and I'm glad that she gets the next few days before Christmas off instead of being stressed out wondering what is going to happen. Most of us, in the course of a lifetime, have all experienced, at least once, working for a crappy boss at a crappy job. You and she will weather this. Together, you two can weather anything.

I know that you're exhausted working all of those hours and then spending more time at your parents' setting things up for your Dad. I've been exactly where you are, right now, and it's hard, I know. But, at the end of the day, you will never regret taking care of your parents. It's the right thing to do. Hang tough.... both of you.

~EI


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> For you B1 and EI. You guys got this.
> 
> 
> View attachment 2021


Thanks bfree....... I think you're right, we may have this..... But, can you just keep the elephant? We don't want him!  LOL


----------



## margrace

thank you for the birthday wishes, everyone 

i'm continuing to feel pretty positive since WS agreed to go back to therapy with me. of course i know that MC will not be a magic pill to make all our problems go away, and that the ups and downs will continue. as good as i have been feeling, there are still those little cringe-y moments every day when something about the A is triggered in my mind and a little burst of hurt/anger/whatever is the result. 

but i move past them quickly these days... just knowing that there will be a time and a place every week where the sole purpose is to make our marriage better does WONDERS for me. and thankfully i won't have to be the engine of that work all by myself! i don't have to carry the burden alone anymore of trying to get us to deal with those problems. that was a huge burden in itself!

i realize that i'm not sorry to be saying goodbye to this hard year. i do believe that some good learning and growth are going to come from it and i am grateful for that.... but i am looking forward to turning the page and starting the next chapter.


----------



## calvin

Morning all,glad to hear youre stil fighting marg.
I triggered pretty good yesterday,I know I have nothing to worry about but it kinda scares me that CSS is going to have all this spare time on her hands,thats was one of the reasons she found her POS ex hs bf,I guess I"m afraid it might happen again but I know it wont.
Things have just been kind of rough lately.
Hope you all have a good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Cal...totally dig what you're saying, man. I've had a pretty up and down week. One day awesome...next day crappy.

One of my kittens triggered me yesterday!!! YES!! That's right! 

I was trying to get ready to go to MC with Regret (she was going straight there from IC) and the kitten got into our room...which is a no no. She ran right into Regret's closet where all her nice boots and shoes are. I walked over and called to her and reached down to pick her up...and she went further into the closet. So, I opened up the other door and leaned in real far to grab her - and as I did, my hand reached up for balance and I pulled down all 10,000 purses and handbags that Regret had up there!

The kitten ran out. Thankfully. But there I was with all this crap on the floor and I saw it. A keycard from the hotel down the street (about 5 miles away actually). The last time she was there was 3 years ago when I had gotten her a room after being gone for 2 weeks. I did that from time to time to give her a night away from the house and the kids so she could pamper herself. Well...this was the last time she had stayed at that particular hotel...and it was one of the times she invited the xOM to visit her. On my dime.

To say I triggered when I saw that keycard doesn't do the word trigger justice. Luckily, I was going straight to MC with her and we talked about it. The MC helped talk me down from the adrenalin high I was on. It sucked pretty bad.

Cal...you can't control CSS. You can only trust that she loves you and will not do you wrong again. It's the same with Regret and me. I'm just trying to get it through my head.

Almost there. Almost.


----------



## Rookie4

I have another question, this morning. 
Until we make the commitment to reconcile, what about sex with other people? She has already said that she has not had sex since she ended the A with Brad, and has no intention of having sex with anybody but me. I guess I believe her, but it would be hard to prove , in any case.
For myself, I feel that I am free to sleep with whomever, as long as I'm upfront about the situation to everybody.
Also, if she isn't having sex, is she trying to get me to abstain from doing so myself, but isn't expressing her feelings for fear of "rocking the boat?"


----------



## margrace

*this is a holiday valentine to YOU!*

dear BSs and WSs on this thread:

whoever you are and wherever you are right now in your real life, someone out there is sending you love!

and that's me. 

i really don't know what i would have done without you. i haven't had an easy, perfect life already, but dealing with infidelity (and trying to come to grips with its causes and consequences) has been the most confusing, most painful, most emotionally devastating thing i have ever been through. i really lost my sanity for a while. i'm still shaky sometimes. i know that you know how that is.

sometimes i wrote to you, and got back affirmations and words of wisdom and suggestions and yes-i've-been-theres. sometimes i just read the thread without writing, and was reminded that you are confused too, and you are surviving this craziness too, and that the waves are crashing on you every day too, but you are still moving forward.

just today -- just one day of looking through the most recent posts -- i received these gifts:



> EI and B1 are celebrating feeling normal
> 
> Mrs. M: Every day you change your lives and share that here, you change someone else's.
> 
> Bfree: I don’t pray for miracles. I make miracles.
> 
> Calvin: I hate this club, I really do but since we're all here lets make some popcorn and have a beer.


*all of you* have given me similar little pieces of inspiration that i kept in my pocket all day long. your brave, generous posts here have built something really important and valuable and I AM SO GRATEFUL! thanks for being you!

xoxo mg


----------



## calvin

Dig,ouch man! Yeah that would be quite a trigger,a huge one,sorry man.
Yeah,I'm not crazy about her being home alone like this but like you said,I cant control her only trust her.
Her being home alone is just bringing back a sh!tload of bad memories right now.
We have MC tonight,maybe its something I shoukld bring up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Cal...totally dig what you're saying, man. I've had a pretty up and down week. One day awesome...next day crappy.
> 
> One of my kittens triggered me yesterday!!! YES!! That's right!
> 
> I was trying to get ready to go to MC with Regret (she was going straight there from IC) and the kitten got into our room...which is a no no. She ran right into Regret's closet where all her nice boots and shoes are. I walked over and called to her and reached down to pick her up...and she went further into the closet. So, I opened up the other door and leaned in real far to grab her - and as I did, my hand reached up for balance and I pulled down all 10,000 purses and handbags that Regret had up there!
> 
> The kitten ran out. Thankfully. But there I was with all this crap on the floor and I saw it. A keycard from the hotel down the street (about 5 miles away actually). The last time she was there was 3 years ago when I had gotten her a room after being gone for 2 weeks. I did that from time to time to give her a night away from the house and the kids so she could pamper herself. Well...this was the last time she had stayed at that particular hotel...and it was one of the times she invited the xOM to visit her. On my dime.
> 
> To say I triggered when I saw that keycard doesn't do the word trigger justice. Luckily, I was going straight to MC with her and we talked about it. The MC helped talk me down from the adrenalin high I was on. It sucked pretty bad.
> 
> Cal...you can't control CSS. You can only trust that she loves you and will not do you wrong again. It's the same with Regret and me. I'm just trying to get it through my head.
> 
> Almost there. Almost.


Somedaydig, did Regret know that she still had that keycard, lying around?
If she didn't, maybe it would be a good idea for her to look around the house for anything else like that. Anything that could possibly pertain to the affair or the OM. Lingerie/clothes she wore, perfume,any mementos, etc. If you've already talked about this in the thread, sorry about that. Just trying to be helpful.


----------



## Rookie4

I can see that I'm not nearly as far along as you guys are about trusting my ex. I have a looooong way to go yet.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> I can see that I'm not nearly as far along as you guys are about trusting my ex. I have a looooong way to go yet.



perhaps one day you will


----------



## Almostrecovered

SomedayDig said:


> Almost.


whaddya want?


----------



## Rags

Rookie4 said:


> I have another question, this morning.
> Until we make the commitment to reconcile, what about sex with other people? She has already said that she has not had sex since she ended the A with Brad, and has no intention of having sex with anybody but me. I guess I believe her, but it would be hard to prove , in any case.
> For myself, I feel that I am free to sleep with whomever, as long as I'm upfront about the situation to everybody.
> Also, if she isn't having sex, is she trying to get me to abstain from doing so myself, but isn't expressing her feelings for fear of "rocking the boat?"


Well, I guess that's up to you.

If you do want to R, I would would it imght be helpful to think of it as though it were a new relationship - as in, you've met a girl, you like her, you think it could go somewhere serious ....


... in that situation, do you want it to be an exclusive relationship? Even if you're not having sexual relations with the intended object of your affections, would you be looking for them with anyone else?

For myself, I think I wouldn't.

If there was no chance of my looking for R, that it was completly over, and no way would look to start anything new with her, well, that's different.

If you are considering a reconcilliation, and you do think you might again consider her to be the one to whom you give sole affection and attention, it might be a good idea to try it - see if it really is somewhere you want to go.

Given that (from what you've said) she's been abstaining since the affair ended, despite anything you've been choosing to do (without prejudice) - I doubt it's particularly manipulative. She appears to have been doing things to improve herself, without specific reference to you.

As with all these things, it's up to you. What do you think would be best?


----------



## calvin

Rookie,having sex with other people while you are thinking about R'ing just doesnt seem like a good idea,I know your ex wants to R and you are not quite sure if you want to but I think it might muddy the waters more.
I'd hold off on that but thats just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> I have another question, this morning.
> Until we make the commitment to reconcile, what about sex with other people? She has already said that she has not had sex since she ended the A with Brad, and has no intention of having sex with anybody but me. I guess I believe her, but it would be hard to prove , in any case.
> For myself, I feel that I am free to sleep with whomever, as long as I'm upfront about the situation to everybody.
> Also, if she isn't having sex, is she trying to get me to abstain from doing so myself, but isn't expressing her feelings for fear of "rocking the boat?"


An interesting perspective from the deepest, darkest depths called Dig's Brain....

Why is sex so important? What is it about achieving an orgasm that drives people to do the things that they do?

I'm not coming down on or admonishing you Rookie, I come from a background of being sexually abused as a kid. It has forever stained me. I love to have sex...do NOT get me wrong. The wilder the better (luckily Regret and I are enjoying that now!). That said, why the need to have sex with someone else? I'm naive at almost 45 years old. And I'm pretty f'ng serious about that question. Unless I was with someone who was pretty significant to me, sex just wasn't on the table.

Anyway...just something for me to fill space on the computer screen. I would just say make sure you and your ex, if you're honestly going to try making a go of this, have extremely clear boundaries in place. And don't EVER cross them...no matter how good it might feel in the moment.



calvin said:


> Dig,ouch man! Yeah that would be quite a trigger,a huge one,sorry man.
> Yeah,I'm not crazy about her being home alone like this but like you said,I cant control her only trust her.
> Her being home alone is just bringing back a sh!tload of bad memories right now.
> We have MC tonight,maybe its something I shoukld bring up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes...definitely bring it up, man. It can do nothing but help you and your MC might be able to give you some tools to help you cope with your feelings. Again...I totally get it. I get it every other Tuesday when Regret has a union meeting. The same day and meeting that she used as an excuse (we have long negotiations til about 8pm) to meet the xOM.

Talk about what you feel. And when you feel that adrenalin start to flood into your heart...close your eyes and imagine something else. Don't let it take a firm grip on you.


MG...that was really nice of you


----------



## Rags

SomedayDig said:


> Why is sex so important? What is it about achieving an orgasm that drives people to do the things that they do?


Without intending to go down a derail path ... umm ... species survival drive.

I'm not a Dawkins fan, particularly, but there's some interesting stuff in 'The Selfish Gene'

Things that propagate the gene tend to survive. Orgasms, risky sex, multiple partners, all can help propagtion, so they persist - individual feelings and sense, and 'right' etc aren't a consideration.


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> Somedaydig, did Regret know that she still had that keycard, lying around?
> If she didn't, maybe it would be a good idea for her to look around the house for anything else like that. Anything that could possibly pertain to the affair or the OM. Lingerie/clothes she wore, perfume,any mementos, etc. If you've already talked about this in the thread, sorry about that. Just trying to be helpful.


Nope...she had no idea it was in that purse. She hadn't used the thing in years and she simply forgot and honestly didn't know why it was there. Hell, I've stayed in hotels for a total of 4 years in the last 10 that I was a pilot. It's easy to forget a card in a wallet or in this case a purse. I didn't see any mal intent, just a huge f'ng trigger...even though she simply forgot to throw it away.

Yes...I've talked about that kind of thing. She didn't wear any lingerie for the guy. That said, though - I did make her throw away every pair of panties and every bra that was in her dresser. I had her go through her clothes and anything that she knew she wore when she met him was tossed out. That included a pair of Victoria Secret boots that she had bought that she knew she had worn with a couple outfits when they met up. Not cheap to do but there's no price tag on what I needed.

Yeah...next thing to throw away is this house. Which will be next summer.


----------



## SomedayDig

Rags said:


> Without intending to go down a derail path ... umm ... species survival drive.
> 
> I'm not a Dawkins fan, particularly, but there's some interesting stuff in 'The Selfish Gene'
> 
> Things that propagate the gene tend to survive. Orgasms, risky sex, multiple partners, all can help propagtion, so they persist - individual feelings and sense, and 'right' etc aren't a consideration.


Totally understand your POV.

My questions above are more rhetorical than actual questions, though.


----------



## SomedayDig

Almostrecovered said:


> whaddya want?


To forgive.


----------



## Rags

SomedayDig said:


> Totally understand your POV.
> 
> My questions above are more rhetorical than actual questions, though.


Ahh, I see. Sorry.

I don't do rhetorical terribly well. (I treat almost all questions literally - possibly borderline Aspberger's - my sister just thinks it's funny that I consider myself 'borderline' ...  )


----------



## SomedayDig

Totally cool, Rags. Absolutely zero need to apologize!


----------



## Rookie4

Actually the only reason i even brought it up was that my GF called me bright and early this morning and said that she was not going to give up on our relationship and would "fight" for me , because she loves me. (Whatever that means) 
It goes back to the reason I started dating her , in the first place. I wanted an FWB relationship and thought that is what she wated , as well. Now, just when I'm getting used to the idea of R, she decides that she loves me. I can see a lot of drama ahead, so I'm feeling pressured to make my decision quicker than I want to. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Nope...she had no idea it was in that purse. She hadn't used the thing in years and she simply forgot and honestly didn't know why it was there. Hell, I've stayed in hotels for a total of 4 years in the last 10 that I was a pilot. It's easy to forget a card in a wallet or in this case a purse. I didn't see any mal intent, just a huge f'ng trigger...even though she simply forgot to throw it away.
> 
> Yes...I've talked about that kind of thing. She didn't wear any lingerie for the guy. That said, though - I did make her throw away every pair of panties and every bra that was in her dresser. I had her go through her clothes and anything that she knew she wore when she met him was tossed out. That included a pair of Victoria Secret boots that she had bought that she knew she had worn with a couple outfits when they met up. Not cheap to do but there's no price tag on what I needed.
> 
> Yeah...next thing to throw away is this house. Which will be next summer.


This is something I've been thinking about as well.
I have a standing offer of a job in engineering at another plant acroos town, and I have thought a lot about moving there, regardless of whether we R or not. My thoughts were that if I decided to R, I would let her come home, symbolically letting her back into the family, but move soon afterwards. Sort of a fresh start kind of thing.


----------



## Rags

Rookie4 said:


> It goes back to the reason I started dating her , in the first place. I wanted an FWB relationship and thought that is what she wated , as well.


Ummm. Well, if she wants more from a relationship than you want (do you want more than FWB from her?) it would seem daft to continue it. If you're not going to have a deeper relationship with her, and she's not happy with where things are, I doubt it's going to work in any case, R or no, Ex or no.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Rookie4 said:


> Actually the only reason i even brought it up was that my GF called me bright and early this morning and said that she was not going to give up on our relationship and would "fight" for me , because she loves me. (Whatever that means)
> It goes back to the reason I started dating her , in the first place. I wanted an FWB relationship and thought that is what she wated , as well. Now, just when I'm getting used to the idea of R, she decides that she loves me. I can see a lot of drama ahead, so I'm feeling pressured to make my decision quicker than I want to. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.


hoo boy

(side note, is your penis made of crack?)


the reality is that you never wanted anything more than the FWB that was in place. Now that you are taking yourself away from her she wants to "fight" for it. I think ending it for good is the wiser move, it's clear she wanted more than what you wanted regardless if your ex was in the picture now.


----------



## BURNT KEP

EI said:


> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I love you! <3


Well put.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> hoo boy
> 
> (side note, is your penis made of crack?)
> 
> 
> the reality is that you never wanted anything more than the FWB that was in place. Now that you are taking yourself away from her she wants to "fight" for it. I think ending it for good is the wiser move, it's clear she wanted more than what you wanted regardless if your ex was in the picture now.


No, AR, the only crack is between my f**king ears when I start to think about all of the sh*t that is going on.


----------



## EI

_*margrace*_, I am so happy that your husband has agreed to start MC with you, again. That's definitely a step in the right direction. I think you still need to focus on yourself, your happiness, your healing and your well-being. It's time for your hubby to step up and start doing the heavy-lifting (I cannot tell you how much I hate that phrase.... but, it definitely applies here.) You have honestly owned your contributions to the marital problems that occurred prior to your husband's A. It's time for him to own his and it's past time for him to begin helping you heal from the heartache that his choice to have A has caused you. To move forward in a healthy reconciliation he has to start being 100% transparent, honest and accountable so that you can feel "safe" enough to invest in the possibility of a new marriage with him. I'm saying my prayers and keeping my fingers crossed for you.

_*Calvin*_, that job was not good for CSS and therefore not good for your marriage in the long run. She'll find another one soon enough and things will improve. She was under too much stress. BTW.... CSS is never going to do anything to put your marriage at risk, again. I don't think I have ever seen any former WS show such a shameless display of love and affection for her BS than CSS does for you. We can ALL see that clearly. It's time for Calvin to see it, understand it, believe it and accept it! 

_*Dig*_, that had to hurt and I'm so sorry that it happened. It would be a good idea for Regret to _discreetly_ make a "sweep" of things (sometime when you're not around.... I think) so that these little "triggers" aren't going to pop up out of nowhere long after the situation has begun to improve. That was an unfortunate occurrence.... she needs to make sure that it was the last one of it's kind. In the first several weeks after D-Day as I rounded up anything that pertained to the "elephant" I, actually, took the item to B1 and asked him if he had any questions about it and if he did then we discussed them until he was completely satisfied that he had all of the info that he needed. Then, I told him that I was going to destroy it and throw it away as I did not want any "triggers" around for either of us to to stumble upon years down line. I told him that once I threw it away I was going to release those memories so make sure that he had asked whatever he needed to know. For example, he said something about land line phone records a couple of weeks after D-Day. Those aren't available online, you have to request them. I didn't wait until he asked again. I immediately ordered them from our land line service provider and when they came in I took a yellow highlighter and marked every single phone call (even the ones to numbers that he would have never recognized or known had any connection to the xOM.) I wrote down every detail of those conversations that I could remember and insisted that we go through them. He was actually a little hesitant and had me "put the list away for a few weeks." One night I told him that I didn't want anything tangible in the house as a reminder and that if he ever wanted to go through them that I thought that we should do so and then throw the list away. It's not something that I wanted the kids to come across 30 years from now after our death..... or any other time.... although they do know about my A. It wasn't a "fun" task to do.... going through the list, but it was a necessary part of healing. We did it together and I destroyed the list. If I were to see another one just like it now, I may not be able to recall those conversations.... once it was gone, like I said, I released those memories.... I don't want them, anymore.

_*Rookie*_, in my opinion, you need to focus on one partner at a time. If you are actively seeking or even seriously considering reconciliation with your (ex)wife then you shouldn't be having an intimate relationship with another woman. It isn't fair to you, your ex and it isn't fair to the other woman. Now, if you are wanting to "play the field" and just date your ex and date other women, as well, then you need to make sure that everyone involved knows what your intentions are. It isn't necessarily wrong to "date" around, as you are officially a single man, but it is wrong to string someone along, lead them on, give them false hope, etc.... You need to honest with yourself and be honest with any women that you are involved with. You've made it pretty clear that you are still in love with your ex. If that is true.... why would you even want to be in a sexual relationship with another woman? I'm not discounting your hurt and your issues with trust that you rightfully have with your ex..... but, reconciliation, if at all possible, is a full-time job..... and then some. Make sure that you like the man that you see when you look in the mirror. Because that is the one person that you WILL be spending the rest of your life with..... no matter what!


*On a side note: * Last night there was a musical Christmas special and Rascal Flatts was singing "God Bless the Broken Road." B1 has never been one who had any interest in dancing.... while I loooooove to dance..... all kinds of dancing. B1 isn't feeling well.... he is trying to keep a nasty cold from completely taking over. His vacation starts tomorrow when he gets home from work and he will be off until after the new year. So, he was in the kitchen doctoring himself up with cold meds. I have been keeping him several feet away from me for days (as I just cannot get sick before X-Mas..... spent the day with our daughter, X-Mas shopping, yesterday and now she is sick...... yeah me.... I see what's gonna happen here..... and it better not. ) But, when that song came on I was overwhelmed with the urge to be close to him and to dance with him..... this man who is sick and does not dance. I asked him to come into the living room and in his dazed, sick and confused state he did as I asked. I wrapped my arms around him and started swaying to the music. When he realized what was happening he perked up a bit and we danced.... it was very romantic, very passionate, very sweet and very loving. I looked into his eyes and felt so much genuine love for him.... it wasn't like the love I felt, years ago, when our marriage was still good and all of the stresses of our life hadn't begun to chip away at us and our marriage.... it was like a love that I never knew could exist. After being together over 31 years, B1 and I danced..... really danced and it was beautiful. He told me that he would dance with me anytime I want. I'm going to take him up on that. And, although, I still do not want to get sick, I couldn't resist a few kisses.... a few wonderful, amazing and passionate kisses. 

I love you, B1.

Everyone have a wonderful day. I've got a million and one things to get done!

I love you guys..... you've been a lifeline to us.

Take care,
~EI


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Rookie,having sex with other people while you are thinking about R'ing just doesnt seem like a good idea,I know your ex wants to R and you are not quite sure if you want to but I think it might muddy the waters more.
> I'd hold off on that but thats just me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just my 2 cents...

Rookie, I am with Calvin here. I think if you are going to R, then you need to be ALL in and so does she. R is hard work it's NOT a cake walk, and I think having someone else out there in the wings would just make R much more complicated. Like when things get tough, and they will, you may be more inclined to say, screw it I'm done with this R, and go running to your plan B.

I realize this puts you in bad spot with your GF, she says she loves you...wow, that's a tough one. But I just don't think you can date both while working on your R. 

EI and I were talking just last night saying just how much work goes into R, the good days and bad, the triggers, the talks, it's just a lot of work and it takes commitment and determination to get through some days and those rough times. To me, R just takes ALL you have and ALL you can give to make it work.


----------



## calvin

No EI,its not that I doubts she loves me it just brings back some bad memories her being home all day,talking,texting and on ocassion going to the K-mart parking lot to talk to him.
Its just a trigger,I know it will stop
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Margrace thanks for the thank you  that was very nice. It's good to know that this thread is making a difference for you and hopefully others. It's sure helped me! We really have some great people on this thread....amazing, wise, and insightful posters, Oh, and funny ones too.

Dig, that had to be one nasty trigger, so sorry to hear that. I would have lost it and I'm guessing you did. Glad you worked through it though, goes to show how far you have come.

EI I will gladly dance with you anytime now. I have a lot of dances to make up for. I am so glad you are happy again today. When you are happy then the world is good.

As for me, I am still doing really good. It's a little scary though, sometimes I wonder when the hammer is going to drop. I am now starting to think that just maybe it wont  that this is it, that we have reached a new and better place in our marriage. I hope so.


----------



## SomedayDig

B1...yeah, I'm sorry to admit to everyone I was not at my best last night with that trigger. Much better today.

Sucks cuz I had just bought her Christmas present earlier...a Nikon 50mm f1.8G cuz she wants to get into macro shots. Don't worry about that being a spoiler cuz I gave it to her last night. Cuz I love her. And I absolutely SUCK at keeping secrets.


----------



## joe kidd

Been taking my 12 yr old daughter to IC. I never knew how bad the situation in our house after D-day screwed her up. She looked at me and said " it was like being in hell daddy". Was so damn caught up in my hurt and didn't even think of hers. Yep...father of the freakin year here. Sigh


----------



## jh52

joe kidd said:


> Been taking my 12 yr old daughter to IC. I never knew how bad the situation in our house after D-day screwed her up. She looked at me and said " it was like being in hell daddy". Was so damn caught up in my hurt and didn't even think of hers. Yep...father of the freakin year here. Sigh


Joe - the main thing is you have recognized your ways and are changing for the better. You can't take back whatever happened in the past - but you can be the damn best man, husband and father from today and going forward through out the coming years.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Joe -

Don't be too hard on yourself. I know it sucks to learn that your daughter was hurting during this time frame, but think of some of what she has learned.

Life isn't one big fairy tale. Sometimes it hurts and bad sh1t happens to good people. But you don't just let it beat you down and give up. You fight for what's important and what's right. 

So while it's not ideal, know this: 

She won't walk through life blindly. 
She won't take things for granted. 
She will know that happiness takes work and isn't something you sit on your a$$ and wait to show up. 
She will know that true love requires sacrifice and patience and forgiveness. 
She will know how incredibly strong her father is, and what he can endure and still find a way to love. 

And props to you for getting her into IC to work through some of the more traumatic and immediate issues.


On a quick side note, wanted to brag on myself for a minute. Tomorrow is the last day of work for my wife and I for the year. And she's had a rough week at work (organizational changes where her boss and his boss were let go etc). So I hatched a sneaky plan - I call this move "Going _Pretty Woman_". 

Lined up a babysitter tomorrow afternoon/night. Bought her a new dress, shoes and jewelry and made reservations at a very swanky restaurant in downtown Chicago (she works downtown and I work in the burbs). I did all this on the sly, and will show up at her work tomorrow all dudded up at 5 with her new outfit and inform her we are going out on the town! Should be a nice surprise for her, and nice romantic night for the two of us. Can't wait to see the look on her face when I show up! Cue the Rev. Al Green . . .


----------



## calvin

Mmm,I wonder if NH2MR is a Bears fan?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

I am! But can't talk about it after this past weekend. Too soon!


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Mmm,I wonder if NH2MR is a Bears fan?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No one would admit that in public right now Calvin.  Man! you guys were 7-1! WTF happened?


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

joe kidd said:


> No one would admit that in public right now Calvin.  Man! you guys were 7-1! WTF happened?


Two words: Jay Cutler


----------



## joe kidd

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Two words: Jay Cutler


Yeah I can see that. IMO the guy is a poison, pouty douche.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> No one would admit that in public right now Calvin.  Man! you guys were 7-1! WTF happened?


Yeah NH,I work in Chicago,live in Indiana.
Ok joe,I hate you again,just when I thought our relationship was starting to blossom...sigh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Yeah NH,I work in Chicago,live in Indiana.
> Ok joe,I hate you again,just when I thought our relationship was starting to blossom...sigh
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Been taking my 12 yr old daughter to IC. I never knew how bad the situation in our house after D-day screwed her up. She looked at me and said " it was like being in hell daddy". Was so damn caught up in my hurt and didn't even think of hers. Yep...father of the freakin year here. Sigh


Thank you, Joe.

You just held a big f'ng mirror up for me to see myself in.

One that I have NEVER wanted to see.



Thanks, bud...I needed that.


----------



## Rookie4

betrayed1 said:


> Just my 2 cents...
> 
> Rookie, I am with Calvin here. I think if you are going to R, then you need to be ALL in and so does she. R is hard work it's NOT a cake walk, and I think having someone else out there in the wings would just make R much more complicated. Like when things get tough, and they will, you may be more inclined to say, screw it I'm done with this R, and go running to your plan B.
> 
> I realize this puts you in bad spot with your GF, she says she loves you...wow, that's a tough one. But I just don't think you can date both while working on your R.
> 
> EI and I were talking just last night saying just how much work goes into R, the good days and bad, the triggers, the talks, it's just a lot of work and it takes commitment and determination to get through some days and those rough times. To me, R just takes ALL you have and ALL you can give to make it work.


B1, I understand what you and Calvin and EI are saying, I really do. I also realize that I still love my ex wife and that I DO want to R. What I am not sure about , is if I'm ready to commit to it. 
I would be lying if I didn't say that there is still some lingering resentment towards her. Why do I have to disrupt my new life, and take this leap of faith, for something she did? While I'm ready to admit my part in our marriage woes, the affair was all her, so I'm figuring that she needs to prove herself first, before I go "all in". Grant you, she is doing a wonderful job, so far and I told her this. But I'm thinking that as long as everybody is in the loop, I should be able to date whom I choose, until the time is right. Perhaps we should date for a while to renew my confidence/trust 
in her, and to see if it is what we both want and need?
You see, I view reconciliation as a progression. Each step following the one before. To go "all in", from the first, commits me (and her for that matter) to something we are not even sure is possible or not, and restricts my freedom of action.


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> Thank you, Joe.
> 
> You just held a big f'ng mirror up for me to see myself in.
> 
> One that I have NEVER wanted to see.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, bud...I needed that.


Sorry man. I had my head in the sand. Was amazed and shocked at how blind I was.


----------



## SomedayDig

Don't be sorry brother. Your words were precisely what I needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> _*margrace*_, I am so happy that your husband has agreed to start MC with you, again. That's definitely a step in the right direction. I think you still need to focus on yourself, your happiness, your healing and your well-being. It's time for your hubby to step up and start doing the heavy-lifting (I cannot tell you how much I hate that phrase.... but, it definitely applies here.) You have honestly owned your contributions to the marital problems that occurred prior to your husband's A. It's time for him to own his and it's past time for him to begin helping you heal from the heartache that his choice to have A has caused you. To move forward in a healthy reconciliation he has to start being 100% transparent, honest and accountable so that you can feel "safe" enough to invest in the possibility of a new marriage with him. I'm saying my prayers and keeping my fingers crossed for you.
> 
> _*Calvin*_, that job was not good for CSS and therefore not good for your marriage in the long run. She'll find another one soon enough and things will improve. She was under too much stress. BTW.... CSS is never going to do anything to put your marriage at risk, again. I don't think I have ever seen any former WS show such a shameless display of love and affection for her BS than CSS does for you. We can ALL see that clearly. It's time for Calvin to see it, understand it, believe it and accept it!
> 
> _*Dig*_, that had to hurt and I'm so sorry that it happened. It would be a good idea for Regret to _discreetly_ make a "sweep" of things (sometime when you're not around.... I think) so that these little "triggers" aren't going to pop up out of nowhere long after the situation has begun to improve. That was an unfortunate occurrence.... she needs to make sure that it was the last one of it's kind. In the first several weeks after D-Day as I rounded up anything that pertained to the "elephant" I, actually, took the item to B1 and asked him if he had any questions about it and if he did then we discussed them until he was completely satisfied that he had all of the info that he needed. Then, I told him that I was going to destroy it and throw it away as I did not want any "triggers" around for either of us to to stumble upon years down line. I told him that once I threw it away I was going to release those memories so make sure that he had asked whatever he needed to know. For example, he said something about land line phone records a couple of weeks after D-Day. Those aren't available online, you have to request them. I didn't wait until he asked again. I immediately ordered them from our land line service provider and when they came in I took a yellow highlighter and marked every single phone call (even the ones to numbers that he would have never recognized or known had any connection to the xOM.) I wrote down every detail of those conversations that I could remember and insisted that we go through them. He was actually a little hesitant and had me "put the list away for a few weeks." One night I told him that I didn't want anything tangible in the house as a reminder and that if he ever wanted to go through them that I thought that we should do so and then throw the list away. It's not something that I wanted the kids to come across 30 years from now after our death..... or any other time.... although they do know about my A. It wasn't a "fun" task to do.... going through the list, but it was a necessary part of healing. We did it together and I destroyed the list. If I were to see another one just like it now, I may not be able to recall those conversations.... once it was gone, like I said, I released those memories.... I don't want them, anymore.
> 
> _*Rookie*_, in my opinion, you need to focus on one partner at a time. If you are actively seeking or even seriously considering reconciliation with your (ex)wife then you shouldn't be having an intimate relationship with another woman. It isn't fair to you, your ex and it isn't fair to the other woman. Now, if you are wanting to "play the field" and just date your ex and date other women, as well, then you need to make sure that everyone involved knows what your intentions are. It isn't necessarily wrong to "date" around, as you are officially a single man, but it is wrong to string someone along, lead them on, give them false hope, etc.... You need to honest with yourself and be honest with any women that you are involved with. You've made it pretty clear that you are still in love with your ex. If that is true.... why would you even want to be in a sexual relationship with another woman? I'm not discounting your hurt and your issues with trust that you rightfully have with your ex..... but, reconciliation, if at all possible, is a full-time job..... and then some. Make sure that you like the man that you see when you look in the mirror. Because that is the one person that you WILL be spending the rest of your life with..... no matter what!
> 
> 
> *On a side note: * Last night there was a musical Christmas special and Rascal Flatts was singing "God Bless the Broken Road." B1 has never been one who had any interest in dancing.... while I loooooove to dance..... all kinds of dancing. B1 isn't feeling well.... he is trying to keep a nasty cold from completely taking over. His vacation starts tomorrow when he gets home from work and he will be off until after the new year. So, he was in the kitchen doctoring himself up with cold meds. I have been keeping him several feet away from me for days (as I just cannot get sick before X-Mas..... spent the day with our daughter, X-Mas shopping, yesterday and now she is sick...... yeah me.... I see what's gonna happen here..... and it better not. ) But, when that song came on I was overwhelmed with the urge to be close to him and to dance with him..... this man who is sick and does not dance. I asked him to come into the living room and in his dazed, sick and confused state he did as I asked. I wrapped my arms around him and started swaying to the music. When he realized what was happening he perked up a bit and we danced.... it was very romantic, very passionate, very sweet and very loving. I looked into his eyes and felt so much genuine love for him.... it wasn't like the love I felt, years ago, when our marriage was still good and all of the stresses of our life hadn't begun to chip away at us and our marriage.... it was like a love that I never knew could exist. After being together over 31 years, B1 and I danced..... really danced and it was beautiful. He told me that he would dance with me anytime I want. I'm going to take him up on that. And, although, I still do not want to get sick, I couldn't resist a few kisses.... a few wonderful, amazing and passionate kisses.
> 
> I love you, B1.
> 
> Everyone have a wonderful day. I've got a million and one things to get done!
> 
> I love you guys..... you've been a lifeline to us.
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


EI, I don't know if this makes any sense, but having my GF (or any other woman) is sort of like a lifeline for me. Right now , I don't trust or forgive my ex wife. I'm pretty sure that she is doing all she can to prove herself, and I appreciate it and have told her so. Plus, I'm feeling more confident in our situation, and think I'm nearly ready to take the plunge, but tha anger and hurt still hold me back from taking that final dip. Letting go of the resentment is super hard, and the memories of what she said and her attitude back then, still haunt me and make it infinitely harder, than I want .


----------



## Almostrecovered

Well again I think you should give the FWB the axe not because of possible R with ex but because she clearly wants more than what you want in the relationship and to continue seeing her is somewhat cruel.


----------



## Rookie4

Almostrecovered said:


> Well again I think you should give the FWB the axe not because of possible R with ex but because she clearly wants more than what you want in the relationship and to continue seeing her is somewhat cruel.


I agree, AR. It isn't what I want, but I think it is necessary for both of us to call it a day. This irritates me to no end. I have NEVER, NEVER, asked for anything more than a casual FWB type of relationship. I have been completely honest with each and every woman I have dated since my divorce, and have done my best to keep it that way.
Plus, it makes me resent my ex wife more, because if she had remained faithful , I wouldn't be doing ANY of this, or living my life like some kind of player, which is absolutely NOT what I ever wanted. SUNOFA*****!!


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## Rookie4

As I see it, this is my situation as of today.
My ex wife wants to R and is doing everything she can to prove herself. I believe this, and appreciate it. She told me that she is 100% sure that she is in love with me, and is wanting to move faster to R. At least part of the reason she is so sure is BECAUSE she had her affair and now knows that isn't what she ever wanted. Thsi doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and cuddly.
My GF NOW thinks SHE is in love with me, and so I'm going to have to break up with her, because I am not feeling the same.
EVERYBODY wants to know what I want. I DO know what I DON'T want. I don't want drama and I don't want pressure. I want to make up my own mind, at my own pace. GRRRRRRRRR!!!!


----------



## joe kidd

Rookie4 said:


> As I see it, this is my situation as of today.
> My ex wife wants to R and is doing everything she can to prove herself. I believe this, and appreciate it. She told me that she is 100% sure that she is in love with me, and is wanting to move faster to R. At least part of the reason she is so sure is BECAUSE she had her affair and now knows that isn't what she ever wanted. Thsi doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and cuddly.
> My GF NOW thinks SHE is in love with me, and so I'm going to have to break up with her, because I am not feeling the same.
> EVERYBODY wants to know what I want. I DO know what I DON'T want. I don't want drama and I don't want pressure. I want to make up my own mind, at my own pace. GRRRRRRRRR!!!!


If your ex truly loves you then she will understand any reservations you might have. You have the wheel not her. Tell her that you will go at your own pace....if she doesn't like that then it's her problem, not yours.


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## calvin

Rookie,your going to have to make up your mind on R'ing.As long as you have a gf,it wont work.
My wife proclaimed how she fought and did everything she could to save the marrige while she was still talking to the POS,at the very least its a distraction when you have someone else you're thinking about.
There's nothing wrong with not wanting to R but if you attempt it you have to let the gf go.
You're in a situation I would'nt want to be in.
Damned if you do and if you dont.
Take youre time and think about it but dont leave these women in limbo for long,its not fair to them,even to your ex,just tread carefully bro.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Joe, I case you didn't notice, I'm beginning to get irritated. PLus I feel really guilty about the GF. Merry Christmas , GF, Oh, btw, I'm dumping you. How bad does that suck!!


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## joe kidd

Rookie4 said:


> Joe, I case you didn't notice, I'm beginning to get irritated. PLus I feel really guilty about the GF. Merry Christmas , GF, Oh, btw, I'm dumping you. How bad does that suck!!


Damn. Does your ex know how it seems like Lucy holding the football? You have to be thinking in the back of your mind that when you run up to kick it she will just pull it away.


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## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Rookie,your going to have to make up your mind on R'ing.As long as you have a gf,it wont work.
> My wife proclaimed how she fought and did everything she could to save the marrige while she was still talking to the POS,at the very least its a distraction when you have someone else you're thinking about.
> There's nothing wrong with not wanting to R but if you attempt it you have to let the gf go.
> You're in a situation I would'nt want to be in.
> Damned if you do and if you dont.
> Take youre time and think about it but dont leave these women in limbo for long,its not fair to them,even to your ex,just tread carefully bro.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, Cal, that's the problem!! I NEVER left ANYBODY in limbo. I'm the only one in this whole ball of sh*t, who has been honest, from the first, so NOW I have to be the bad guy (right before Christmas, no less) and break up with her. This REALLY pisses me off.


----------



## Rookie4

joe kidd said:


> Damn. Does your ex know how it seems like Lucy holding the football? You have to be thinking in the back of your mind that when you run up to kick it she will just pull it away.


Actually, Joe, it's like TWO Lucys with two footballs and I'm f**ked whichever way I Kick.


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## Rookie4

You know, it would serve everybody right, EX, GF, family and friends, If I went to the Islands for the Holidays, by myself. I really could stand some relaxation.


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## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> See, Cal, that's the problem!! I NEVER left ANYBODY in limbo. I'm the only one in this whole ball of sh*t, who has been honest, from the first, so NOW I have to be the bad guy (right before Christmas, no less) and break up with her. This REALLY pisses me off.


No,youre not the bad guy at all,sorry if I implied that.
You are in one tight spot though.Its fvcked up for you man.
Which way do you go? Hell, I couldnt tell you.
Good luck man,I dont envy you at all right now.
Youre in this crap and you didnt cause it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Rookie4 said:


> You know, it would serve everybody right, EX, GF, family and friends, If I went to the Islands for the Holidays, by myself. I really could stand some relaxation.


I vote for you going to the islands!


----------



## old timer

I'd take the kids.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> B1, I understand what you and Calvin and EI are saying, I really do. I also realize that I still love my ex wife and that I DO want to R. What I am not sure about , is if I'm ready to commit to it.
> I would be lying if I didn't say that there is still some lingering resentment towards her. Why do I have to disrupt my new life, and take this leap of faith, for something she did? While I'm ready to admit my part in our marriage woes, the affair was all her, so I'm figuring that she needs to prove herself first, before I go "all in". Grant you, she is doing a wonderful job, so far and I told her this. But I'm thinking that as long as everybody is in the loop, I should be able to date whom I choose, until the time is right. Perhaps we should date for a while to renew my confidence/trust
> in her, and to see if it is what we both want and need?
> You see, I view reconciliation as a progression. Each step following the one before. To go "all in", from the first, commits me (and her for that matter) to something we are not even sure is possible or not, and restricts my freedom of action.


I see R as a path. But you need to take that first step. Plus it helps if you look forward so you don't trip over your own feet.

You don't need to disrupt your new life. This can just be part of it. You would have eventually found a girl and settled down. This is not your old marriage. This is a new relationship. You are both totally different people. Treat it as such. If this was a serious relationship with a completely different person would you insist on dating others? How will you know how you feel if you aren't focused on each other exclusively? If it doesn't work out can't you just resume your new life again? Then at least you can say you tried.


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## CantSitStill

I think you need to pull away from both of them. Tell them you need a break. I would take my time getting to have a better relationship with myself so that you can love again. Also when people do reconcile the BS is not all in for quite a while. Don't do things to make others happy. This is about what makes you happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Rookie, I think you're over analyzing this. Just go with the flow and see how things work out. Enjoy each other's company. Relax.


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## Rookie4

old timer said:


> I'd take the kids.


No way. I'm paying for their education, they can do their own entertaining.


----------



## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> I think you need to pull away from both of them. Tell them you need a break. I would take my time getting to have a better relationship with myself so that you can love again. Also when people do reconcile the BS is not all in for quite a while. Don't do things to make others happy. This is about what makes you happy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, you have no idea how tempting that is. But, I commited to a family Christmas, so I'm on the hook.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Rookie, I think you're over analyzing this. Just go with the flow and see how things work out. Enjoy each other's company. Relax.


There is no way I could over analyze this. It is what it is. I'm just getting a little pissed about all of it.


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## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> There is no way I could over analyze this. It is what it is. I'm just getting a little pissed about all of it.


Your in the thick of it.
Distance yourself somewhat,back away and take a better look.
You have a war going on in your mind.
Get some space from both of them and do some thinking on your own.
To bad its too cold to go camping by yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Nah, Cal, I'm Ok. I just needed to vent a little. I'm really sorry to lay this on my GF, at this time of year, and feel like sh8t about it.


----------



## Rookie4

But it does bring up an interesting question. Some of the same posters who repeatedly say for me to "take my time", are the same ones who say I should break up with my Gf and make the commitment to R. Huh? Wha? If I break up with my GF and if I commit to R, how is that taking my time? Instead of reducing the situation to what I want, that is putting even more pressure on me to decide regardless of whether I'm ready or not, isn't it?


----------



## sapientia

EI said:


> You sound a lot like B1 before D-Day. He was a good man, a reliable man, a kind man.... but he was never really emotionally available.... never really vulnerable, always inhibited and he kept his deepest "feelings" locked safely away.... even from me. I always knew it, I just couldn't get through.... but, I kept hoping. The only real exception to that was with our children, they made him vulnerable, so I knew that he had "it" within him... but, in the last few years, he had begun to withdraw even from them a bit, and that broke my heart.
> 
> On D-day, his walls, involuntarily, came crashing down, $hitty timing for him, I know. To feel, to really feel every emotion and all he was feeling was intense pain. When I read what you said about getting to know misery pretty well and it stuck around and you rolled in it.... I think I realized something. Misery worked for you..... you could control it. You didn't have to rely on _anyone else_ for misery to "work" for you. It was almost dependable. Misery didn't provide highs that might build you up and give you hope, only to risk letting you down, again. Misery was solid and dependable and you learned how to function within it.... as long as you stayed miserable. Because it was yours... and you had 100% control of your misery.


Good thread. Sounds like my H/stbx. My nightmare also re: D is that *then* he will come around and I will have given up. Did you ever reconcile to each other? Sorry, but +200 pages is a lot to go through.


----------



## ChangingMe

Sapientia, B1 and EI are still R'ing and doing well. Here are some of their posts from (I believe) yesterday:



betrayed1 said:


> When I left his morning EI said, with a smile, and with Christmas music playing in the background, "I feel normal."
> 
> I thought WOW what wonderful words to hear from her. I am SO glad she feels normal, which I think translates to.... I feel happy, content and like a wife and mom.
> 
> Backing off the constant questions and talks was such the right thing to do. For her, for me and for our marriage. We are both experiencing peace now like never before.
> 
> Yes, I still struggle some, it's not gone but things have truly taken a turn for the better. We did spend about 30 minutes talking about the A last evening. We covered the things I still struggle with, and some things she is struggeling with. We really talked it out and then let it go and moved on to life.





EI said:


> Wow.... I must be one of the luckiest women in the world! My BS, who is also my B1 and my husband, is *SO glad that "I" feel normal.... happy, content and like a wife and a mom......*
> 
> _He_ wants _me_ to be happy..... and, _I_ want _him_ to be happy. I think we're on to something, now!
> 
> Not quite 7 months ago we experienced one of the worst days of our lives...... followed by several more "worst" days..... Every once in a while, now, we have some very real moments of extreme happiness, joy, bliss, contentment, peace..... and HOPE! Every once in a while, the gigantic elephant in the room actually goes away for a while. He doesn't go very far and he always comes back.... but, sometimes he's not here, at all. I'm starting to have hope that one day that big, ugly, elephant is going to go away and stay away for good. I know that we'll never forget about the elephant.... and we shouldn't, but that elephant did force us to make some choices about our marriage. We were either going to fix what was broken in our marriage and in ourselves or accept defeat and move on.
> 
> I really didn't have any hope for our marriage 6 1/2 months ago. Today, I am nearly ecstatic.....
> 
> Gotta run....... I'm not coming home until my X-Mas shopping is done..............
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI
> 
> P. S. I love you B1. Don't bring that nasty cold you're trying to get back home with you, today, okay? I don't have time to be sick!


This is a great thread, and you don't have to read every page to jump in on it.


----------



## Rookie4

sapientia said:


> Good thread. Sounds like my H/stbx. My nightmare also re: D is that *then* he will come around and I will have given up. Did you ever reconcile to each other? Sorry, but +200 pages is a lot to go through.


No, actually B1 and EI divorced. B1 is now a wildlife photographer in the Amazon and EI is an exotic dancer in Vegas........Just Kidding! They are together and doing really well.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> But it does bring up an interesting question. Some of the same posters who repeatedly say for me to "take my time", are the same ones who say I should break up with my Gf and make the commitment to R. Huh? Wha? If I break up with my GF and if I commit to R, how is that taking my time? Instead of reducing the situation to what I want, that is putting even more pressure on me to decide regardless of whether I'm ready or not, isn't it?


It's because you can't please all of the people all of the time. You won't be able to satisfy everybody, and many people here will always question your motives. It's not necessarily a bad thing, though it can be exhausting feeling like you have to explain everything. I've found though that it really makes me think and analyze my reasons for things. 

As for my opinion on the GF, I think it's time to end things with her, not because you are considering R'ing, but because she has now told you that she wants more from you than you want to give her. I don't even really see it as you breaking up with her. The situation was one thing (FWB), and now she is saying she loves you and wants a relationship with you. You have never once on here (at least as far as I've read) stated that you are even considering this with her, so to me, that means you want two entirely different things, so it's only fair to end things because of it. 

And I still think you're going to end up having sex with your ex on Christmas Eve.


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> Sapientia, B1 and EI are still R'ing and doing well. Here are some of their posts from (I believe) yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great thread, and you don't have to read every page to jump in on it.


Yes it is, CM and I'm glad I found it.


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> It's because you can't please all of the people all of the time. You won't be able to satisfy everybody, and many people here will always question your motives. It's not necessarily a bad thing, though it can be exhausting feeling like you have to explain everything. I've found though that it really makes me think and analyze my reasons for things.
> 
> As for my opinion on the GF, I think it's time to end things with her, not because you are considering R'ing, but because she has now told you that she wants more from you than you want to give her. I don't even really see it as you breaking up with her. The situation was one thing (FWB), and now she is saying she loves you and wants a relationship with you. You have never once on here (at least as far as I've read) stated that you are even considering this with her, so to me, that means you want two entirely different things, so it's only fair to end things because of it.
> 
> And I still think you're going to end up having sex with your ex on Christmas Eve.


Ok...I will....if I have to.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Ok...I will....if I have to.



Yeah, like we didn't know that already!


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> Ok...I will....if I have to.


Sorry to force you into something so unpleasant! 

Seriously though, get some mistletoe & put it on her pillow, so when she pulls down the sheets she finds it. Very romantic. :smthumbup:


----------



## EI

sapientia said:


> Good thread. Sounds like my H/stbx. My nightmare also re: D is that *then* he will come around and I will have given up. Did you ever reconcile to each other? Sorry, but +200 pages is a lot to go through.


Yes, Ma'am we sure did..... we are giving it our best shot at nearly 7 months since D-Day. My husband is the OP of this thread and, like you, I had completely given up on him and our marriage. *Then* on D-day.... he came around....  Long story..... I think we experienced a true miracle.... so does our MC. It really is possible.... there is always HOPE!


----------



## Rookie4

Yadda, yadda , yadda, EI and all of that Pollyanna stuff gets annoying, but otherwise a good thread. Lol JK


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Yadda, yadda , yadda, EI and all of that Pollyanna stuff gets annoying, but otherwise a good thread. Lol JK


----------



## Rookie4

Right back at you!!


----------



## Rookie4

Uriah Heep - Sunrise - YouTube Great old song.


----------



## Rags

Rookie4 said:


> Ok...I will....if I have to.


And if you do ...

a) She will be thinking you're ready to start reconciling
b) She will be sleeping with someone she's not married to (which might be an issue for her, religion-wise)
c) It might confuse the heck out of both of you

That said, if you are ready to reconcile then, it would be a lovely thing for both of you.

Kind of like how when you're building a huge great edifice, and you need to do some blasting to create the foundations - those explosives can be tricky to work with.

Good luck, to you both (all) 
(sux to hurt the GF, but that's not what you signed up for ... better to break it off now, rather than string her along if there's no hope, IMO.)


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> Actually the only reason i even brought it up was that my GF called me bright and early this morning and said that she was not going to give up on our relationship and would "fight" for me , because she loves me. (Whatever that means)
> It goes back to the reason I started dating her , in the first place. I wanted an FWB relationship and thought that is what she wated , as well. Now, just when I'm getting used to the idea of R, she decides that she loves me. I can see a lot of drama ahead, so I'm feeling pressured to make my decision quicker than I want to. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.


Think people would learn after reading it enough the you do not date until the divorce is final. The BS is not ready to enter a relationship. 78% of marriages survive an affair. Adding another love interest only creates more problems for recovery.

Two wrongs do not make a right. However three left turns will make one right turn.


----------



## SomedayDig

They've been divorced for a year...


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> EI, I don't know if this makes any sense, but having my GF (or any other woman) is sort of like a lifeline for me. Right now , I don't trust or forgive my ex wife. I'm pretty sure that she is doing all she can to prove herself, and I appreciate it and have told her so. Plus, I'm feeling more confident in our situation, and think I'm nearly ready to take the plunge, but tha anger and hurt still hold me back from taking that final dip. Letting go of the resentment is super hard, and the memories of what she said and her attitude back then, still haunt me and make it infinitely harder, than I want .


Having a side squeeze prevents the BH from reconnecting with the WW.


----------



## Omegaa

Women aren't exactly wired to have a long term FWB type arrangement. What is exactly, "friendship with benefits" to women anyway? What are the benefits? :scratchhead: Casual sex is casual sex.

My WS was having a 3 year "affair" with this woman, who was apparently very needy, lonely and had a very hard life all on her own raising two sons etc. She was familiar with casual sex / single scene with potential significant others who showed interest in her. That was her thing. She enters into a sexual relationship first and see what that may lead to. Also, she needed constant reassurance that she was attractive by gaining male attention and gaining sex on demand. 

This woman said that she loved my WS who used her whenever it suites him. He spent awful lot of time with her - chatting to her online each evening and they had exciting sex.

When I blasted this to my WS's family e.g. Mother, Brother etc etc, he got sober. 

I will never forget about this woman but we are reconciling. Well, she kept begging him to come and see her and he eventually did. But I get to keep him 24/7 and he is compliant that he wasn't going to spend so much time online anymore. Actually, marriage got better after the painful affair..


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, AR. It isn't what I want, but I think it is necessary for both of us to call it a day. This irritates me to no end. I have NEVER, NEVER, asked for anything more than a casual FWB type of relationship. I have been completely honest with each and every woman I have dated since my divorce, and have done my best to keep it that way.
> Plus, it makes me resent my ex wife more, because if she had remained faithful , I wouldn't be doing ANY of this, or living my life like some kind of player, which is absolutely NOT what I ever wanted. SUNOFA*****!!



No one forced your WW to have an affair. The OM did not put a gun to her head.

No one is forcing you to have a revenge affair. No one held a gun to your head to force you to leave the high road.


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> As I see it, this is my situation as of today.
> My ex wife wants to R and is doing everything she can to prove herself. I believe this, and appreciate it. She told me that she is 100% sure that she is in love with me, and is wanting to move faster to R. At least part of the reason she is so sure is BECAUSE she had her affair and now knows that isn't what she ever wanted. Thsi doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and cuddly.
> My GF NOW thinks SHE is in love with me, and so I'm going to have to break up with her, because I am not feeling the same.
> EVERYBODY wants to know what I want. I DO know what I DON'T want. I don't want drama and I don't want pressure. I want to make up my own mind, at my own pace. GRRRRRRRRR!!!!


You were told not to date that you were still married. GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Omegaa

theroad said:


> Think people would learn after reading it enough the you do not date until the divorce is final. The BS is not ready to enter a relationship. 78% of marriages survive an affair. Adding another love interest only creates more problems for recovery.
> 
> Two wrongs do not make a right. However three left turns will make one right turn.


Usually.. but it seems that Rookie's position is quite clear. I don't get the impression that his WW has much chance for R. 

Perhaps, his WW wasn't happy with him in some way and she wanted her freedom which led her to stray.. My WS wasn't very happy with me when he decided to seek someone else. 

Certainly, his stance is very clear. If he had any interest in R, his attention would have been directed towards his WW.


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> Joe, I case you didn't notice, I'm beginning to get irritated. PLus I feel really guilty about the GF. Merry Christmas , GF, Oh, btw, I'm dumping you. How bad does that suck!!


What sucks more is stringing GF along.


----------



## Rags

theroad said:


> You were told not to date that you were still married. GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Not sure you're really following this thread .... have you read the details?


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> See, Cal, that's the problem!! I NEVER left ANYBODY in limbo. I'm the only one in this whole ball of sh*t, who has been honest, from the first, so NOW I have to be the bad guy (right before Christmas, no less) and break up with her. This REALLY pisses me off.


You were not honest with yourself. You did not finish things with your WW but you said I don't care and got yourself a GF.


----------



## Rookie4

theroad said:


> No one forced your WW to have an affair. The OM did not put a gun to her head.
> 
> No one is forcing you to have a revenge affair. No one held a gun to your head to force you to leave the high road.


WTF are you talking about, Road? I'm divorced, there was or is no revenge affair.


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> They've been divorced for a year...


Don't bother, Dig, sometimes it's just not worth the trouble. There are people who simply don't get it, and the Road seems to be one of them.


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> You know, it would serve everybody right, EX, GF, family and friends, If I went to the Islands for the Holidays, by myself. I really could stand some relaxation.


Here you stand covered in manure.

You blame the WW for taking a dump.

Your WW did take a dump on your marriage.

Though you had pick up the manure and throw the manure into the fan. With you standing in front of the fan, turning the fan to high speed. AKA having a revenge affair.


----------



## Omegaa

Essentially, you are still hurting inside re. divorce.

I hear that some men resort to suicide after divorce. It's a major trauma.

So long as your gf knows that it is a REBOUND "arrangement", which means, it is nothing serious - I think it's all fair. Guys don't usually cope with being all ALONE. However, women do get emotional as soon as you get intimate... You need to tell her that all you want from her is her emotional attention as well as physical attention but not much more. Then it's all clear isn't it?


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> There is no way I could over analyze this. It is what it is. I'm just getting a little pissed about all of it.


Nothing analyse. What is hard to grasp that RA's are wrong. Grow up.

An RA is the adult equivalent 4 year old temper tantrum.


----------



## Omegaa

Actually, my WS (whom I reconcilled with) said that he wouldn't have another Relationship/marriage if ours didn't work out.

I personally wouldn't consider having another one either.

Some people have casual relationships after getting hurt. Nothing unusual. You need a female companion. Hope you heal soon. Being resentful is not going to help you in your recovery...


----------



## theroad

Rookie4 said:


> But it does bring up an interesting question. Some of the same posters who repeatedly say for me to "take my time", are the same ones who say I should break up with my Gf and make the commitment to R. Huh? Wha? If I break up with my GF and if I commit to R, how is that taking my time? Instead of reducing the situation to what I want, that is putting even more pressure on me to decide regardless of whether I'm ready or not, isn't it?


Committing to recovery is committing to work at repairing the marriage.

Recovery is not a weekend of being nice and hysterical bonding.

Recovery is a 2 to 5 year job.

Not everyone is successful at recovery. The only guarantee in life is that nothing is guaranteed.


----------



## Rookie4

theroad said:


> Here you stand covered in manure.
> 
> You blame the WW for taking a dump.
> 
> Your WW did take a dump on your marriage.
> 
> Though you had pick up the manure and throw the manure into the fan. With you standing in front of the fan, turning the fan to high speed. AKA having a revenge affair.


The Road, have you ever read the guidelines about civility and respect? Perhaps you should give it another look-see?


----------



## Rookie4

theroad said:


> Committing to recovery is committing to work at repairing the marriage.
> 
> Recovery is not a weekend of being nice and hysterical bonding.
> 
> Recovery is a 2 to 5 year job.
> 
> Not everyone is successful at recovery. The only guarantee in life is that nothing is guaranteed.


What does your answer have to do with my question?


----------



## bfree

Rags said:


> And if you do ...
> 
> a) She will be thinking you're ready to start reconciling
> b) She will be sleeping with someone she's not married to (which might be an issue for her, religion-wise)
> c) It might confuse the heck out of both of you
> 
> That said, if you are ready to reconcile then, it would be a lovely thing for both of you.
> 
> Kind of like how when you're building a huge great edifice, and you need to do some blasting to create the foundations - those explosives can be tricky to work with.
> 
> Good luck, to you both (all)
> (sux to hurt the GF, but that's not what you signed up for ... better to break it off now, rather than string her along if there's no hope, IMO.)


Sex.....blasting.....yeah that works.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

If we ignore him, maybe he'll just go away.

Rook, I don't have much to add to your particular discussion, but I feel for you, and guess you will do the right thing. If, many years ago, you and your ex found each other to be proper mates, then reconciling with her completes your original mission, to have a bond and live your lives together. Personally, I would encourage you to look inside yourself and ask if this is still your mission. You have kids, have history, have investment. 

I know this time of year makes things even more emotional than the rest of the year - that's just how it is. Be strong, true to yourself, and think about what you want for the next 50 years.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> What does your answer have to do with my question?


I wouldn't be too hard on theroad. Its a long way down to the bottom of the bottle.

Smile Empty Soul - Bottom Of The Bottle (Official) Video - YouTube


----------



## CantSitStill

I wouldn't say that it's a revenge affair Unless he is having a relationship just for revenge twords his ex wife..when people get divorced , they are divorced, which means the marriage is over. So how is that having an affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

CSS, I'm doing the best I can. Right after D-day, I DID want revenge, and said so. I never made any secret of my desire to punish her for her affair. She understands that and accepts that it was her choices that caused all of this. Im really impressed at how she has taken responsibility. After the divorce, I , no longer wanted revenge, just to get on with my life. I've done that and so I think both of us are in a much better place than before.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> CSS, I'm doing the best I can. Right after D-day, I DID want revenge, and said so. I never made any secret of my desire to punish her for her affair. She understands that and accepts that it was her choices that caused all of this. Im really impressed at how she has taken responsibility. After the divorce, I , no longer wanted revenge, just to get on with my life. I've done that and so I think both of us are in a much better place than before.


Even if you don't end up reconciling it seems that you can be very good friends. That's still nothing to sneeze at.


----------



## EI

Good Morning Everyone,

I am down to only two presents left to buy.... or maybe three if I can find that damn_ "Elf on a Shelf."_ How did I "miss" knowing about this until a few days before Christmas? Apparently, this is something that our 15 month old grandson "must" have. Translation, this is something that our daughter insists that we "must" buy because it is a very important tradition to begin when the children are young. Never mind that there are no Elves left in Louisville at this point...... Grrrrrr.....

Then, I have to pick up a prescription and head to the grocery to get everything necessary for our huge Christmas Eve dinner for "all" of the family, including in-laws, nieces, nephews, significant others, the list of people to buy for seems to grow every year..... I stayed up until 3:00 a.m. wrapping everything that wasn't nailed down. Of course, I am still expecting 3 more shipments to be delivered between today and Monday.... that's 12 more things to wrap.... Have I told ya'll that I'm tired of wrapping?

So, anyway, why don't you guys share what some of your Christmas traditions are......

Ours begins on Christmas Eve with the extended family. B1's nephew was born on X-Mas Eve, so we always begin Christmas Eve with a birthday party, then dinner, then opening presents to and from the extended family. After they leave we open presents to and from our daughter and son-in-law. They used to spend the night on Christmas Eve and we would open presents on Christmas morning, but since they had their first baby last year, they decided that they wanted to wake-up at their own home on X-Mas Day.... so we changed things up a bit last year. On Christmas morning we will open presents with our boys, then the boys will go spend some time with their girlfriends' families and B1 and I will collapse and eat leftovers. In the evening the kids will all, eventually, end up back over here and everyone will eat again. But, Christmas Day is less formal and more causal at our house. Our big day is actually Christmas Eve. When the kids were little we had two or three places to go on Christmas Eve and again on Christmas Day. It got to be too much running and not enough enjoying. We scaled a lot of that back years ago. Just three more days and I will finally get to enjoy the fruit of my labor these last several weeks...... 

I'm almost there........... How about you guys?


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> Good Morning Everyone,
> 
> I am down to only two presents left to buy.... or maybe three if I can find that damn_ "Elf on a Shelf."_ How did I "miss" knowing about this until a few days before Christmas? Apparently, this is something that our 15 month old grandson "must" have. Translation, this is something that our daughter insists that we "must" buy because it is a very important tradition to begin when the children are young. Never mind that there are no Elves left in Louisville at this point...... Grrrrrr.....
> 
> Then, I have to pick up a prescription and head to the grocery to get everything necessary for our huge Christmas Eve dinner for "all" of the family, including in-laws, nieces, nephews, significant others, the list of people to buy for seems to grow every year..... I stayed up until 3:00 a.m. wrapping everything that wasn't nailed down. Of course, I am still expecting 3 more shipments to be delivered between today and Monday.... that's 12 more things to wrap.... Have I told ya'll that I'm tired of wrapping?
> 
> So, anyway, why don't you guys share what some of your Christmas traditions are......
> 
> Ours begins on Christmas Eve with the extended family. B1's nephew was born on X-Mas Eve, so we always begin Christmas Eve with a birthday party, then dinner, then opening presents to and from the extended family. After they leave we open presents to and from our daughter and son-in-law. They used to spend the night on Christmas Eve and we would open presents on Christmas morning, but since they had their first baby last year, they decided that they wanted to wake-up at their own home on X-Mas Day.... so we changed things up a bit last year. On Christmas morning we will open presents with our boys, then the boys will go spend some time with their girlfriends' families and B1 and I will collapse and eat leftovers. In the evening the kids will all, eventually, end up back over here and everyone will eat again. But, Christmas Day is less formal and more causal at our house. Our big day is actually Christmas Eve. When the kids were little we had two or three places to go on Christmas Eve and again on Christmas Day. It got to be too much running and not enough enjoying. We scaled a lot of that back years ago. Just three more days and I will finally get to enjoy the fruit of my labor these last several weeks......
> 
> I'm almost there........... How about you guys?


EI, can you buy the Elf on Amazon.com and have it sent two day shipping?

Edit: Just checked. They have it and if you buy it now you'll get it by Monday.


----------



## SomedayDig

theroad said:


> You were told not to date that you were still married. GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:slap:

Hello? Hello? Anybody home? Huh? Think, McFly. Think!


----------



## Rookie4

For us , Christmas Eve is always spent at my Grandparents house in the hills. We always have Roast beef and Fried Chicken and open presents around 9:00 p.m. Then the MEN act as carolers, and sing for an hour or so. WE also always drink hot, buttered rum, instead of Egg nog. Then my family will get up Christmas morning and open presents, then we have a big breakfast, made by everybody.


----------



## Rookie4

Funny thing. After our divorce, my ex wife asked through my daughter if she could still come to GrandMaw's for Christmas, but I refused. Now both of my Grandparents are dead, but right after Christmas, that year, I went to the Cemetary and my ex wife had left some poinsetias with a card that said, forgive me, on it. I just remembered that , just now.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Funny thing. After our divorce, my ex wife asked through my daughter if she could still come to GrandMaw's for Christmas, but I refused. Now both of my Grandparents are dead, but right after Christmas, that year, I went to the Cemetary and my ex wife had left some poinsetias with a card that said, forgive me, on it. I just remembered that , just now.


Oh wow. Is your ex wife a real person or are you just making her up? That might just be the sweetest thing I have ever heard. Damn.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> EI, can you buy the Elf on Amazon.com and have it sent two day shipping?
> 
> Edit: Just checked. They have it and if you buy it now you'll get it by Monday.


Thank you sooooo much....... I guess that spoiled daughter, I mean grandson,  will get the Elf on the Shelf, after all.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> For us , Christmas Eve is always spent at my Grandparents house in the hills. We always have Roast beef and Fried Chicken and open presents around 9:00 p.m. Then the MEN act as carolers, and sing for an hour or so. WE also always drink hot, buttered rum, instead of Egg nog. Then my family will get up Christmas morning and open presents, then we have a big breakfast, made by everybody.



Where are these "hills?"


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Funny thing. After our divorce, my ex wife asked through my daughter if she could still come to GrandMaw's for Christmas, but I refused. Now both of my Grandparents are dead, but right after Christmas, that year, I went to the Cemetary and my ex wife had left some poinsetias with a card that said, forgive me, on it. I just remembered that , just now.


Your ex-wife is truly, either, genuinely repentant and remorseful or she is the best actress/manipulator I've ever heard of. I have a good feeling that it's the first one!


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Where are these "hills?"


I don't want to say in open forum, but do you remember where I told you I was from in my PM?


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Your ex-wife is truly, either, genuinely repentant and remorseful or she is the best actress/manipulator I've ever heard of. I have a good feeling that it's the first one!


You know, EI, by remembering this, I think that maybe some forgiveness is happening in my heart, after all.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Oh wow. Is your ex wife a real person or are you just making her up? That might just be the sweetest thing I have ever heard. Damn.


Bfree, My ex got along with my parents , just fine, but she LOVED my Grandmaw, so it makes sense.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> I don't want to say in open forum, but do you remember where I told you I was from in my PM?


Yep, that's what I was wondering!


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Bfree, My ex got along with my parents , just fine, but she LOVED my Grandmaw, so it makes sense.


I think she LOVED and LOVES you too rookie. Just saying.


----------



## sapientia

Moved.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> You know, EI, by remembering this, I think that maybe some forgiveness is happening in my heart, after all.



Acabado has written a lot about forgiveness. It's not an event. It's an on-going process.... You should look through some of his older posts. There is a wealth of information in them for, both, BS's and WS's.

There is one thing that I that I want to caution you about. Upon discovery of your ex-wife's infidelity, you quickly went completely dark on her and filed for divorce. You chose NOT to attempt to reconcile.... which was absolutely your choice to make. But, in doing so, there was no reconciling the hurt from your wife's infidelity within yourself, either. You didn't attempt to heal the cause of the pain. You eliminated the cause of the pain. Now, as you seriously begin to consider reconciliation, you will, at some point, have to go back and "deal" with those issues and unanswered questions. The fact that some time has passed and your ex has made so many positive changes within herself will, likely, make this process much smoother. But, don't be surprised if anger doesn't surface at some point.... and pain that you thought you had already dealt with. I would imagine that dealing with the hurt from the betrayal of an ex-spouse is far different than dealing with the hurt from the betrayal of someone you are still involved with.

Reconciliation is a big deal. But, it can be worth the effort if that is what you, both, truly desire.


----------



## ChangingMe

EI: Have you checked the Barnes & Nobles by you? The one by us had a ton of them -of course that was last week, so they may be all gone right now. I thought about doing the Elf, but to be perfectly honest, that thing is really creepy!!!

As for our traditions: (I might have posted some of this; I don't remember and am feeling too lazy to scroll back through several pages, so skip it if ya want.) DD's family chooses whatever weekend is closest to Christmas to celebrate, so that means this weekend. They live about 10 minutes from us, but we will still go and spend the weekend over there.

We'll head over this afternoon, leave the kids with them to go to MC at 5:30, then head back for an easy dinner, watch a Christmas movie, tuck the kids in bed, then sit around and play cards and drink some wine. DD's sister and her 2 daughters will be there too. Tomorrow will be baking day, where my MIL, SIL, and I will hang out in the kitchen and make every sweet imaginable. DD's extended family will come over that afternoon and we'll eat dinner, then do presents Saturday night. A lot of the family will stay the night, so there will be more card games/puzzles/etc. It's so much fun -we'll have I think around 15 people there, and it gets loud and silly. We'll make that long drive back home on Sunday. 

On Christmas Eve, my mom will come over and she and I will do some more baking with the kids and fix some dinner. My dad will come over after work, and we'll all eat & hopefully go to a Christmas Eve service. Then back to our house, where my parents will spend the night. After the kids go to bed, we'll get all the Santa gifts ready, and then we'll all hang out and chat. 

Then Christmas morning, we get to watch the kids open gifts and we make a big brunch. Once my parents head home, we will just lounge around and play with our presents.

I am really looking forward to the holidays this year! I realize how much different they could be, and I am so grateful with the plans we have.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

We do Christmas eve mass and then have a nice family dinner at home - roasted prime rib, home made rolls and mashed potatoes. And a little wine. 

This year my in-laws are joining us for mass and dinner, so the kids will get to hangout with Grandma and Grandpa too.

The kids each get to open one gift on Christmas eve, then off to bed. We pull out all of the Santa gifts and get everything staged and then we usually sit in front of the fire and have some more wine and listen to Christmas music. 

Christmas morning doesn't start until mom and dad get a cup of coffee (see red meat, starch and wine above) and then we all sit around the tree and open presents. This year we are heading to my family to celebrate on Christmas afternoon/evening. It's a little crazy with all the kids (7 all under the age of 10), but it's always a great time. 

One tradition we really enjoy on my side of the family is that all of the adults do a secret Santa, but you have to MAKE a gift for that person. Over the years it has gotten pretty competitive - woodworking, stained glass, metal sculpture etc. This year, my wife took a glass blowing class and made some incredible ornaments. I tried my hand at oil painting, and it turned out pretty well!

Our new years plans are laid back, and family focused these days. For the kids, we let them choose their menu and and my wife and I pretend to be their waiters for the evening. Sparkling cider and the whole nine. My daughter loves it. Then we put them down around 8:30 and we start our tradition.

Each year we pick a different country and then we prepare a traditional multi course meal from that country. Including drinks and desserts. We cook together and laugh, it's a ton of fun. Last year we did Morroco and it was really delicious. We usually finish dessert in time to pop open a bottle of bubbly and ring in the new year at midnight! We like it because it's focused on us and our family and doesn't put any of us out on the road on new years eve.

Wishing everyone on this thread a very merry Christmas and a happy new year. Take the time to enjoy where we have come to and all of the work behind it. Cherish the moments and appreciate the sacrifices that have been made. Pull your special person in extra close and just enjoy that moment of contentment. These are the moments that make it all worthwhile. Cheers!


----------



## old timer

*Nh2mr:*

Wow -that is wonderful...almost made a crusty old fart cry...almost


----------



## CantSitStill

This year have done nothing, bought nothing, we did put up a tree and some decorations but it doesn't feel like Christmas. Stress really can mess things up. That job I had consumed me. I must get in gear and make sure I have something for my kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> This year have done nothing, bought nothing, we did put up a tree and some decorations but it doesn't feel like Christmas. Stress really can mess things up. That job I had consumed me. I must get in gear and make sure I have something for my kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There will be other jobs CSS.

Stay positive. Good things are happening for you and Calvin.

And that is the most important thing.

Have a great Xmas!

HM64


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Well, considering how this year went, with the A and all, our Christmas is a bit muted. We are doing well with one another, but so much happened, it's just harder to get in the spirit, and there's much more going on. My wife's family (of which I am a part, now) is opening a second thrift store, shooting for opening the first of the year, so every spare moment these days seems filled with fixing computers, painting, moving fixtures, etc. in preparation for this new opening. 

Also, the kids are leaving today for a Christmas trip to Europe with my wife's ex, so we will not see our kids for Christmas at all. We will just have each other, and the big family get-together. This always occurs at her parents' house, and the family is huge - they had 6 daughters, and now there are kids, grandkids and great-grandkids. 

There's always a big meal, and, because grandma is an antique dealer, there are always lots of gag gifts. There's a pair of plaid pants that gets given to someone new every year. Pretty funny seeing this go down.

I am one who gets kind of blue, what with the commercialism of Christmas, and the fact that people don't really honor the birth of Jesus the way they should, so it's just kind of tough for me.

Despite that, I really hope that everyone here has the happiest of holidays. So many of you have been so helpful to me. I really feel as though we are friends on here, and look forward everytime to that "Reconciliation" thread notifier email when it hits.


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> There will be other jobs CSS.
> 
> Stay positive. Good things are happening for you and Calvin.
> 
> And that is the most important thing.
> 
> Have a great Xmas!
> 
> HM64


I always sent out the xmas cards,this is the second year in a row none have gone out,hearts not into it.
It sucks but I remember how the holidays were last year.I sat around the house by myself,I cant really get into the spirit.
Her A did cost us a lot of cash,I just couldnt work or I was leaving early all the time,I just couldnt run the mill safely,I was a basket case.
A lot of th OT dried up but I'm gettin 52 hours a week in,down from 65.
We have money for the kids's gifts,I'm going shopping tomorrow also.
Its kinda hard,now when I think about the holidays I think of how bad thing were.We came very close to divorcing,in the last couple months thoughts of D have finally left my head.
Funny,she wanted it bad I didnt,then I did.
The family is together,I love CSS,every thing will be alright.
I get my vacation check the first week of January and its a good chunk of change,we did a lot of pay check to pay check living these last few months.
Things could be MUCH worse,we'll be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Now if she would answer my text I'd feel better.
Nothing for a couple hours now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> This year have done nothing, bought nothing, we did put up a tree and some decorations but it doesn't feel like Christmas. Stress really can mess things up. That job I had consumed me. I must get in gear and make sure I have something for my kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You and calvin have already given your kids the best gift they could ever receive. A mom and dad who love each other.


----------



## Rookie4

Decorum, it's already done.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

UPDATE: 

Last night, I got home from my gig at about 2:30 a.m. My wife was still awake, in bed reading. Yeah, she's a night owl. I only stay up that late when I gig. 

We cuddled and talked like old times. It was really good. This morning, I commented to her how good it felt, and she agreed - "this is really working."

I know a lot of you know my story, about how my wife went away for a couple of weeks to meet the OM, how she returned contending she did not have sex with him. I met with a lot of skepticism from folks, but I am still believing her, and working on that assumption. If there was trickle-truth to come out, I'm thinking it would have happened by now. 

By the way, yes, she still does have some contact with him, because of the work connection, but after she "broke it off" with him, he is now discouraged, and not making much contact at all. She is being completely transparent as far as I can tell, and that's all I can know, right?

Interestingly, the gal I had an EA with many years ago made her annual sojourn into my inbox yesterday, spouting crazy sh1t and begging for some sort of contact. I forwarded it to my wife, then deleted it. Who needs this? But it reminds me that stuff will continue to jump up and bite you on the butt throughout your life. There's no running away from infidelity - it changes your life forever.


----------



## calvin

Thats some good stuff bobka,I didnt get damn near any TT from CSS either,some on Tams didnt believe CSS got physical either because she did see him four times ,she didnt.
The one thing I think is there should be NO contact at all,no attempts by the X OM.
My POS said her was going to do whatever he wanted,he was soo wrong,he's not the Billy bad ass he thought he was.
Sounds like you two are making progress,thats good.
Still praying for you two also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Omegaa

Yes.

Please keep up with the Good work.

I think, in retrospect, nothing really matters when marriage needs to go on and no S** is worth more than marriage.

We learn hard lessons from our experience and life is too short to waste on unhappiness. 

Our marriage actually got much better after the truth came out. Thank god that I did find out. No marriage can get better whilst sordid stuff went on forever between my WS & his OW over the past three years. 

I learned a few things and am glad that I was able to experience more about life and marriage. After all, thank god that my h is all mine at last!


----------



## CantSitStill

As for a Christmas tradition..I must have candy canes on the tree from Santa, my son told me last year that he loves it. Been doing that every year, just because the kids are older doesn't mean we stop the little traditions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

We spend Christmas eve at my parents with my side of the family, I like when my relatives come in town from Tennessee. I miss going to Grandma and Grandpa's house when I was a kid. It was so fun. Anyway, Christmas morning the kids wake us and then wait till we get our coffee before opening their gifts  We then have Christmas dinner at Calvin's parent's house. This year some of his family won't be there because they feel offended that he wrote a few things on facebook about people taking advantage of his parents and not helping out..always drama going on in that family but oh well so swell, it is their problem. Also we keep A Christmas Story playing all day long on Christmas lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Last night, I got home from my gig at about 2:30 a.m. My wife was still awake, in bed reading. Yeah, she's a night owl. I only stay up that late when I gig.
> 
> We cuddled and talked like old times. It was really good. This morning, I commented to her how good it felt, and she agreed - "this is really working."
> 
> I know a lot of you know my story, about how my wife went away for a couple of weeks to meet the OM, how she returned contending she did not have sex with him. I met with a lot of skepticism from folks, but I am still believing her, and working on that assumption. If there was trickle-truth to come out, I'm thinking it would have happened by now.
> 
> By the way, yes, she still does have some contact with him, because of the work connection, but after she "broke it off" with him, he is now discouraged, and not making much contact at all. She is being completely transparent as far as I can tell, and that's all I can know, right?
> 
> Interestingly, the gal I had an EA with many years ago made her annual sojourn into my inbox yesterday, spouting crazy sh1t and begging for some sort of contact. I forwarded it to my wife, then deleted it. Who needs this? But it reminds me that stuff will continue to jump up and bite you on the butt throughout your life. There's no running away from infidelity - it changes your life forever.


Very happy to hear that you two are doing well. It does sound like she is ALL in and really working on R.

I believe at some point you are just going to have to trust her when it comes to contact with the om, obviously it's going to happen from time to time and can't be helped. It's not ideal but if she's all in with you, being transparent and you feel she is all of these things then that's the best you can do in this, you just have to let go and trust from there. 

You handled the gf situation perfectly too!

btw: went back on abilify, sadly I guess I still need it. EI noticed a change several days ago it took me a few days to realize it also. I didn't go to that dark hole but I was more insecure, distant and quiet, not as present I guess.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

betrayed1 said:


> Very happy to hear that you two are doing well. It does sound like she is ALL in and really working on R.
> 
> I believe at some point you are just going to have to trust her when it comes to contact with the om, obviously it's going to happen from time to time and can't be helped. It's not ideal but if she's all in with you, being transparent and you feel she is all of these things then that's the best you can do in this, you just have to let go and trust from there.
> 
> You handled the gf situation perfectly too!
> 
> btw: went back on abilify, sadly I guess I still need it. EI noticed a change several days ago it took me a few days to realize it also. I didn't go to that dark hole but I was more insecure, distant and quiet, not as present I guess.


Thanks for your encouragement. You guys must be doing pretty well, as you are pretty quiet around here. It's all good. Just kinda miss you guys!

Glad to hear you are paying attention to the signs of needing the Abilify. It's not a crutch to need meds; they are a helper, and that's all they are. This time of year, too, for people who deal with depression - there's just somethng about it.


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## cpacan

Hi guys,
Just wanted to wish you all a merry christmas and some peacefull holidays. Thanks for your presence and contributions, I read it all, post less, but care a lot 

Holidays can be tough when you are trying to recover from the betrayal, I tried that last year, where x-mas was a bunch of strange/sad/numb/happy days for me. This year, things seem to have improved. I have managed to enjoy a few days with my family while not being too sad, and when bad thoughts have arised, I have managed to make them disappear again, no harm done.

So, I actually look forward to the holidays this year, merry x-mas everybody!


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## B1

Merry Christmas to you too cpacan and everyone else out there.

All the presents are wrapped and under the tree, EI has been working around the clock getting things ready for tomorrow when all the family comes over for dinner and presents. She's cooking now and has been since around 1pm. I went to the grocery with her, cleaned the carpets and repaired the vacuum cleaner, So I have been busy too 

Personally, I am not doing to bad at all this Christmas. Many warned me that it may be a tough holiday season..well, so far so good. 

Well, I better get out there and see if EI needs anything..hope everyone has a very Merry Christmas.


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## the guy

Its Christmas?
Great, I got 2 days to get some presents!
I should have known something was up when my wife put that pine tree up in the middle of the living room, last week. LOL


Were in the hell does the time go?


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## Rookie4

And it came to pass in those days , that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed......... Remember the reason for the season. Merry Christmas!!!


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## EI

Merry Christmas _*Reconcilers_, whether you post on this thread or just read here. You have each been such blessing in our lives in the last several months. I truly think of each of you as a valued friend.

My wish for each of us this Christmas is that no matter where we may be in our relationships, that we are able to enjoy happy times with family, friends and loved ones. All of the holiday food is wonderful (I know this because I cook it!  LOL) Exchanging gifts with family and friends is a lovely tradition. But, having that one special person you love to share it with is a gift that cannot be measured. 

I love you guys! If I don't post, again, until after Christmas, be safe, be happy, be blessed! <3

Take Care,
~EI

* You don't have to be reconciling to be a _Reconciler._ You don't even have to be married. If you're asking yourself if you're a _Reconciler_, then you are one!


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## bfree

I am so going to enjoy this Christmas. For the first time since my divorce I feel a huge weight has been lifted and I have my lovely wife and all of you to thank for it. All of you are a blessing to so many, myself included. I've got to go to bed now. If I stay up too late I might end up on Santa's naughty list.


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## calvin

Amen EI,I liked that.
Good stuff.Merry Christmas to you and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Sadly, I don't have a happy post to write. DD and I are not in a good place. I hate it. I hate what I did. I hate that I can't go back in time and slap some sense or integrity into the me I was 10 months ago when things were heating up to an EA. I am so angry at myself and I hate that I can't fix what I did. 

DD switched from Zoloft to Wellbutrin on Tuesday, and I don't think it is doing anything for him, except giving him some side effects he doesn't like. I have felt him distancing himself from me over the week, but we've been busy with the holidays. We spent the weekend with his family, and he seemed to have fun, but I could tell he was a little off. The weekend was fun for me too, but they showed old home movies, and there was one from my first Christmas with his family, in 1999, when we were engaged. You could just SEE the love we had for each other, and how easy it was. He had his arm around me the whole time, we kissed on camera, etc. It made me ache. 

Yesterday we came home and did stuff around the house. A friend of his asked if he wanted to go out last night, and DD asked me about it. I told him I was hoping we could talk that evening, but if he wanted to, then he could do that. He chose to stay home, and we went to dinner as a family and did some grocery shopping. When the kids went to bed, I again asked to talk. We sat on the couch, but he turned the TV on, and we ended up watching TV instead of talking. I was sad about that, but since I had asked twice, it seemed clear that he didn't want to talk. He also came home from the store saying he was feeling sick, so he's got that going on too. 

Then I woke up at 4:00, and he wasn't in our bed. At some point, he got in bed with our son. I barely slept the rest of the night. This morning, I got in bed with him and tried to talk. He said he got in our son's bed because he didn't want to be around me. This is the first time he has done this since his birthday in October. He still feels sick, he hates the Wellbutrin, and doesn't want to take anything. 

I hate it. I know how much he hates pills, and it is terrifying to think that the only time my husband loves me and wants to be married to me is when he is on Zoloft. I hate that I really want him to take it, because maybe while he is on it, we can work through some things and get where he isn't so angry and hurt when he does go on it.

I hate that I can't make his pain go away, that the fact that everything I did was a big mistake and something I would take back in a heartbeat if I could does nothing to alleviate the hurt and anger he feels. I know I deserve all that I'm experiencing, but he doesn't, and I feel so bad about that. 

And today is Christmas Eve. We both have the day off. I have to cook and clean house, because my parents are coming over at 4:00. They are staying the night, so Bryan and I won't get to talk tonight either. I'm praying that focusing on the kids and their joy and excitement can help us get through the next 36 hours or so. 

Merry Christmas, everyone. I am sorry to be such a downer.


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## happyman64

CM

You will have ups and downs. It will take months if not years for both you and DD to recover.

Be strong. 

All the drugs do is level him out. If he felt the need for space, then give him space.

And being on Zoloft does not mean he loves you any less.

No one gets over the betrayal quickly or as quickly as a WS would like.

And you cannot take way his pain. Only DD can do that when he is ready to.

But you can do this:

Be a good person.
Be a good woman.
Be a good mother.
Be a good daughter.
Be honest.
Be loving.
Be unselfish.

It is those traits that made him fall in love with you. It will be those traits that make him want to stay married to you.

So chin up kiddo. Start cleaning. Start cooking. Get the kids to help as much as they are able to.

Give him a break on the talking for a day or two. And just love him for who he is right now.

You cannot take the pain way but you Can sure lessen it by making him feel secure, by telling him you love him and by showing him that you are still the girl he kissed in that video.

Have a great Xmas. And smile. He is with you and your kids.

That is what matters right now.

HM64


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## Hope Springs Eternal

ChangingMe, I would have thought that the flying thing would be a great distraction and boost for your man. Not sure what's happening there. I'm so sorry things aren't working smoothly right now. 

I guess you have to just come to terms with the fact that this is a process, and stuff will work it out piece-by-piece. Some of the pieces won't fit right away, and some may never fit the same way again. You've really got to factor in all the elements; the med change, the illness, the holidays, and understand that the roller coaster is rolling and not coasting right now. 

I know that you are doing everything you can to show remorse, and being the best CM you can be. But you are only half of the equation.

Let the holiday, and your kids, be the focus. Let the relationship coast for a day or two.


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## CantSitStill

I'm sorry to hear that ChangingMe..I know your pain. We have had a rough couple of days. Just keep hangin on, keep loving him and keep praying. Hoping things get better for you. I know this sucks, I know you wish you could turn back time or magically erase those thoughts going tthru his head. Praying for ya
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

We've decided to make last night and the next couple of nights "film-festival" nights, where we'll watch all our Christmas movies. Last night, it was "Family Stone" (great movie about a dysfunctional family at Christmastime - rent it, for sure!) and "Christmas Story." We cherish our time where we just relax on the couch, hold hands, foot rubs, etc, and eat popcorn. I fell asleep at the end of "Christmas Story." But I really want one of those leg lamps!

Tonight, after the church service, we'll watch "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Christmas Vacation." Tomorrow, "The Grinch" (Jim Carey version) and "White Christmas."

In some ways, we're just trying to get through Christmas without the kids. Not saying we feel lost, but we are left completely to our own devices to "produce" happiness, and the kids, at the holidays, are part of that. They are Facebooking us with updates, and are having a blast. I think my wife wishes she were in Europe with them. 

Sorry to hear that this is a tough time for some of you - sounds like we are all suffering a bit, but this time of year just seems to magnify feelings. We're so busy, so in a way, that can take your mind off things, and yet, our nerves are out there, just nano-inches from the surface. Will there ever be "normal" again?


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## calvin

Sorry CM,it happens and it hurts both spouses.
It helps when CSS just holds and hugs me,tells me she loves me.
He'll pull out of it,just be there for him.
Hope Springs,I dont think there will ever be a "normal" again but "normal" wasnt really working for us was it.
I know it can be better.
This crap is hard but everyone here can and will make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

CM, so sorry about the med change. As you know I stopped taking one of mine and, though it took a couple of weeks,I became distant also. EI picked up on it days ago. So, I started taking it again yesterday. It's sad that I have to, I also hate it. But and a BIG but here, it's necessary for our R right now. That's the number 1 thing for me now, our R, our happiness, our marriage, so If I have to take a pill then so be it, I'll take it. Plus, I don't like being distant it just feels bad.

Hang in there, I do believe this is just part of the ride your on. You know, the emotional roller coaster we all talk about. This will pass, you two will get through it. Meds can be a pain, as I am sure you know, to get worked out. 

Praying for you both!


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## B1

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> We've decided to make last night and the next couple of nights "film-festival" nights, where we'll watch all our Christmas movies. Last night, it was "Family Stone" (great movie about a dysfunctional family at Christmastime - rent it, for sure!) and "Christmas Story." We cherish our time where we just relax on the couch, hold hands, foot rubs, etc, and eat popcorn. I fell asleep at the end of "Christmas Story." But I really want one of those leg lamps!
> 
> Tonight, after the church service, we'll watch "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Christmas Vacation." Tomorrow, "The Grinch" (Jim Carey version) and "White Christmas."
> 
> In some ways, we're just trying to get through Christmas without the kids. Not saying we feel lost, but we are left completely to our own devices to "produce" happiness, and the kids, at the holidays, are part of that. They are Facebooking us with updates, and are having a blast. I think my wife wishes she were in Europe with them.
> 
> Sorry to hear that this is a tough time for some of you - sounds like we are all suffering a bit, but this time of year just seems to magnify feelings. We're so busy, so in a way, that can take your mind off things, and yet, our nerves are out there, just nano-inches from the surface. Will there ever be "normal" again?


YES, there will be normal again. I really believe that and hope for it. We have been experiencing moments of normalcy already.

Glad you two are doing your own thing, it sounds really nice.

Merry Christmas!


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## CantSitStill

Our normal will be much better than our previous normal
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

My hat's off to you "superwomen" here who cook and prep major meals and events for the holidays. We've never really had to do that (of course we contribute), but are always grateful for the spreads that are laid out before us.

Anyway, know that what you do is appreciated, and understand how much you are blessing others by this act of service!


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## CantSitStill

My man cooks and I do love his cooking 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Well, I'm still not sure I belong in the reconciliation group - but I'm going to post anyway, since EI made me feel so welcome! 

Matt and I are five weeks into our journey now. Five weeks of NC, of truly feeling done with the awful choices and pain that I caused. We have good days and bad days, and lately Matt has really been experiencing the pain and anger. He was very "level" for a while, but I think it was numbness, a sense of disbelief.

I am working at being "glass half full" enough for both of us. To keep working on our connection, to keep envisioning a future where we have worked beyond this pain to the joy of being in love and truly together again. I know that ultimately it takes two to make a marriage work, but I am hoping that my efforts can hold us both together until he is in a place to reciprocate that.

I wish there was something I could say or do to really communicate to him that this stage in our relationship is TEMPORARY - that if we work at it, this pain can be left behind. When Matt is feeling down, I think he really believes that we can never have a future that is truly happy. That every holiday, every interaction, every moment will be forever tainted by what I did. And of course, no one wants a future that looks like that. But I know, even in all of that, there are moments when he loves me. When he can feel that I love him. I just hope that they are not too few and far between to remind him of what we are trying to work toward. 

I am doing all that I can to give him my love, my thoughts, myself. But some days he doesn't want that, he doesn't care. That's the hardest part of the journey for me so far. Knowing that I am different, smarter, more aware of what happened and how; knowing that I love my husband with every fiber of my being and desperately want our family to stay together; and still knowing that it may not matter. That I may have damaged him too much for him to accept my efforts. Dr. Harley's book makes it sound so simple - make love deposits and the recipient will love you. But right now, often Matt's bank is closed for business. I just hope that I can be there when it is open, and that even when it's closed, he sees me trying pay it forward.

I've already had a small Christmas miracle - Matt's mom is going to let me attend family Christmas at her house tomorrow. I hope that Matt and I can find some small moments of joy these next two days, especially as we watch our son really experience his first Christmas. He's almost three, and it starting to "get it" as it were. <3 I am so blessed that Matt is even allowing me to be part of our holiday. So even when things aren't great - he's still amazing to share his daily life and our son with me after what I did.

I hope everyone else experiences a little Christmas magic tonight and tomorrow. Thank you for your part in keeping my hope bank full as I work on creating a better me and a new relationship with my amazing husband.


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## calvin

Good stuff Mrs.M
Dont give up,keep trying.
My wife's persistance has had a world of difference and its still hard for me,without her showing me over and over how she is sorry,I would'nt be here.
We could all use a little Christmas magic and maybe we'll get it.
Merry Christmas Mrs. M and God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Mrs. M, as I stated in your thread I think it would be very instructive if you would ask those currently reconciling to help you in your journey. You can ask general questions and you can ask specific questions. For instance, you can ask how to handle when Matt is triggering and asks you to leave him alone. Maybe some of the WS here can advise you how to handle that type of situation i.e. leave the room, leave the house, leave the state (lol). And how long to leave him alone? An hour, several hours, etc. The BS here can also let you know what they were feeling when they said that to their spouses. Maybe they said it but found it felt better when their wives/husbands stayed and comforted them. The people that post on TAM and specifically in this thread are angels. They are remarkable men and women who may struggle daily but persevere and are still willing to offer support and a shoulder to cry on to others. Since tomorrow is Christmas you may not get many responses right now but please consider opening up to these beautiful souls and allowing them to help you if they can.

And I am very glad to see you are reading His Needs, Her Needs. Its a wonderful book and Dr Harley is very thoughtful and knowledgeable. I would also recommend his other books Love Busters and Surviving Infidelity. All together they will give you a good foundation upon which to build a new relationship.

A very merry Christmas to you Mrs M. I really do hope you and Matt can rediscover your love for one another.


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## Mr Blunt

> By Hope Springs Eternal
> I know that you are doing everything you can to show remorse, and being the best CM you can be. But you are only half of the equation


*ChangingMe*, Like Hope Springs Eternal (HSE), I am a BS and concur with HSE’s post above.

I have read some of your posts and I am impressed with your actions. I know that what you want most is for your husband to fully forgive you and reconcile but I want to say that I also think you are being the best that you can be.

Your husband has been rightfully disgusted with the devastating act you did 10 months ago, *I just hope that he can see that you truly have a broken and contrite heart and have taken actions that prove that you really are remorseful*

1.	Psalm 34:18
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a *broken heart*; and saveth such as be of a *contrite spirit*.


2.	Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a *broken spirit*: a broken and a *contrite heart,* O God, thou wilt not despise


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## calvin

bfree...I agree.
I suck at advice but she could get a lot out of this thread and the people here.
Ask away Mrs.M you'll find some help here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> bfree...I agree.
> I suck at advice but she could get a lot out of this thread and the people here.
> Ask away Mrs.M you'll find some help here
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't sell yourself short calvin. You give out great advice. I've seen it.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Don't sell yourself short calvin. You give out great advice. I've seen it.


I wish,I do understand though.

Youre alright bfree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Don't sell yourself short calvin. You give out great advice. I've seen it.


I wish,I do understand though.

Youre alright bfree.

I have a feeling you are too Mrs.M
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

It's 5 below zero here in Minnesota. There's about 8 inches of snow on the ground, left over from a pretty good-sized storm a few weeks ago. So it's a white Christmas. 

People of all ages have been out on their snowmobiles, something they couldn't do last year because there was no snow. A lot of people here love the snow! Me, not so much. But the feeling of Christmas, the white just seems to help. 

W and I had a relaxing evening on the couch, watching "Christmas in Connecticut." Ate lotsa bad, sweet treats. That's what you do, right? 

She's still in bed - always the night owl. 

Making the green bean cassarole and salad for the big shindig at her folks' house later today. There's a new baby in the family, so this will be his first Christmas, and he will, no doubt, be the focus. 

W said last evening that she's ready to go the "next step." 

Praying for all of you to have a safe, warm, happy and blessed Christmas.


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## TBT

Merry Christmas to all who post on this thread! It's nice to come here and see the support and care you give to one another as you all face the long road of reconciliation.There is hope here,something much needed in a forum where so many feel lost and in despair.Wishing you all well in your journeys.


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## happyman64

TBT said:


> Merry Christmas to all who post on this thread! It's nice to come here and see the support and care you give to one another as you all face the long road of reconciliation.There is hope here,something much needed in a forum where so many feel lost and in despair.Wishing you all well in your journeys.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## cpacan

ChangingMe said:


> Sadly, I don't have a happy post to write. DD and I are not in a good place. I hate it. I hate what I did. I hate that I can't go back in time and slap some sense or integrity into the me I was 10 months ago when things were heating up to an EA. I am so angry at myself and I hate that I can't fix what I did.
> 
> ...
> 
> Merry Christmas, everyone. I am sorry to be such a downer.


CM; I am sorry to read this, and I hope so much that you and DD are in a better place today.
I will say this thopugh, that watching videos like those, would have triggered the h3ll out of me as well, today maybe less, but it would still hurt some.

I agree 98% with Happymans post for you - it is spot on. Keep on doing what you do. I think it's a matter of personal beliefs, but I wouldn't try to make DD believe that you are still the woman he kissed on the video years ago. I know it's different from person to person, don't know about DD, but I see my wife as a completely different person than the one I had on a pedestral during all those years. I think it's important to present yourself as a different and changed person, because the one he kissed is unfortunately also the one who would betray him. I am NOT saying this to hurt you, because I think you are doing the best you can, and I have my fingers crossed for the two of you. Just know that there is a difference in perspective now.

Besides from that, agree with Happymans list, and hope things are better today, though holidays can be tough - especially the first year past D-day. Hang in there.


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## calvin

Merry Christmas everyone one,we got a dusting of snow here,so just enough to make it a white Christmas
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Thank you all for your kind posts. I'm sitting here crying at my computer, so sadly, things aren't better today. My parents came yesterday afternoon and just left a little bit ago. DD was able to put on a happy face and interact with them, which I am really grateful for. He is really not talking to me, and I can feel the anger radiate off of him. 

The kids had a good Christmas and got way too much stuff. It's now just the 4 of us in the house for the rest of the day (and it's only 11 am here), and I don't know how that will go. 

I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas. I am going to try to focus on playing with my kids. Thank you again for your posts.


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## calvin

Merry Christmas CM,I hope DD comes around soon.
You remind me of my wife,remoresful,kind and a truely good woman who is doing everything in her power to make things right.
Last night I gave CSS my heart and my trust back for Christmas,I know she will take good care of them.
Praying for you guys.
Keeping chugging along and dont give up,us boneheads can be hardheaded sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Well, I'm not too sure how popular I'm gonna be for saying this, but it seems that we all need to spend a few moments today praying for one another, for our relationships, and our reconciliations.

Please take the time to do this. If you don't get online today, do it tomorrow. We need to support each other in any way we can, including the spiritual realm.

God bless you all!


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## calvin

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Well, I'm not too sure how popular I'm gonna be for saying this, but it seems that we all need to spend a few moments today praying for one another, for our relationships, and our reconciliations.
> 
> Please take the time to do this. If you don't get online today, do it tomorrow. We need to support each other in any way we can, including the spiritual realm.
> 
> God bless you all!


No heat for that Hope Springs.....ugh I prefer bobka,I demand you change your name back!
I actually do pray for all on this thread and a few others every night.
God bless all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Well, I'm not too sure how popular I'm gonna be for saying this, but it seems that we all need to spend a few moments today praying for one another, for our relationships, and our reconciliations.
> 
> Please take the time to do this. If you don't get online today, do it tomorrow. We need to support each other in any way we can, including the spiritual realm.
> 
> God bless you all!


yes and I already did that this morning 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

To me Christmas is about the gift of Jesus that God gave us. Without Him we would all be doomed. Christmas is also about showing everyone how much we love them 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> To me Christmas is about the gift of Jesus that God gave us. Without Him we would all be doomed. Christmas is also about showing everyone how much we love them
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Merry Christmas baby,I love you CSS.
Nothing more that I want for Christmas,just you.
Youre all I need,all I want.
I'm a lucky man to have a loving and caring wife like you.
Youre also pretty damn hot too.
God I love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Merry Christmas Sweet Friends,

I agree with bobka, prayer along with positive thoughts, good wishes, a kind word, it all makes such a tremendous difference when you're hurting and feeling insecure. It makes a positive difference even when you're having a great day. I pray for all of us. I include a prayer of gratitude, as well. I am so very grateful for each of you and for the support that we have received from your presence in our lives.

You guys are "virtually " amazing! 

I am looking forward to the new year. I can't say that I will be sorry to leave 2012 behind.

We had a very nice Christmas this year. Christmas Eve is our biggest "to-do." B1's family came over and we had a big dinner and exchanged gifts with them and with our daughter, s-i-l, and grandson. B1 and I exchanged gifts with one another and with our "boys" this morning. Now, the boys are all off visiting their girlfriends' families and it's pretty quiet around here. Clean up time for me. Tomorrow, the "returns and exchanges" begin........... but, I think I might squeeze in a rare afternoon nap, first! 

Take care,
~EI

:sleeping:


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## calvin

Merry Christmas EI and B1.
God, you women really love shopping and returning.
I'd rather be drawn and quatered.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

ChangingMe said:


> Thank you all for your kind posts. I'm sitting here crying at my computer, so sadly, things aren't better today. My parents came yesterday afternoon and just left a little bit ago. DD was able to put on a happy face and interact with them, which I am really grateful for. He is really not talking to me, and I can feel the anger radiate off of him.
> 
> The kids had a good Christmas and got way too much stuff. It's now just the 4 of us in the house for the rest of the day (and it's only 11 am here), and I don't know how that will go.
> 
> I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas. I am going to try to focus on playing with my kids. Thank you again for your posts.


Patience CM.

DD knows you are there. You be there for him and the kids.

Give him his space.


----------



## old timer

Merry effin Christmas!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

I'm with you EI, tomorrow is R &R from the holiday..you really should be tired. I know you love doing all that work and it's worth it but it does get tiring. I'm tired and didn't do half as much as you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

old timer said:


> Merry effin Christmas!!!


You OK OT?


----------



## calvin

old timer said:


> Merry effin Christmas!!!


Merry Chritmas OT,hope your doing ok.
You have now been added to my prayer list.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

prayers coming your way. If you are reading this that means you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

About to try my new drill. I know it's late but we just got home and I wanna. LOL


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> About to try my new drill. I know it's late but we just got home and I wanna. LOL


So, you wanna "drill" something huh?.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

God Joe,

You are so lucky to have a woman that loves your power tools!

Kudos to you.

HM64


----------



## calvin

I need a hole drilled in my head joe,come on over.
Then we can fill it with beer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

lolol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

I could really use your prayers, guys. DD is in a really bad place. He sent me a text tonight about wanting me to move out. I should be in bed, but I can't sleep. 

I love him. I hate that I've hurt him. I hate that, after about 5-6 good weeks together, we are back down here in this dark pit. I hate that I don't know how to help him.


----------



## calvin

Prayers headed your way CM. Hang in there,I know how he feels,I came around and I bet he will too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

Sorry things have descended so, CM.

You know things can be better. Christmas can be a time for heightened emotional upheaval, so it's possible that things may settle a bit afterwards.

Hang in there. Keep being the best you can be.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

What did you get for Christmas? CSS, I know what YOU got - a great gift! 

I got a lot of books. I'm kinda obsessed with the 60s and 70s music scene (as that's where I grew up - Southern California in the 60s and 70s, was a musician, almost got a record deal, rubbed elbows with a few stars, had my best friend wind up as Elton John's guitarist). So W got me lots of biographies on Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, CSN&Y, etc. And the new John Grisham! I didn't know he had a new one out. Was very pleased. I love to read.

Prayers going out for all of you here. Hope it was a great holiday.


----------



## Rookie4

Okay, I hope that everybody had the Merriest of Christmases, because I sure did. It was the best one in about 3 or 4 years, for all of us in the Rookie family. We renewed our old family traditions and made some new ones, renewed the bonds of love and friendship with our families, friends, and neighbors.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, what everybody expected to happen on Christmas Eve.....happened......multiple times.


----------



## Acabado

I'm sorry CM, sending you strenth and patience to keep the fight. And possitive vibes DD's way.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, what everybody expected to happen on Christmas Eve.....happened......multiple times.


We all saw it coming.  
You sound happy... and proud of yourself!
Glad to hear it.


----------



## happyman64

rookie4 said:


> btw, what everybody expected to happen on christmas eve.....happened......multiple times.


If it didn't rookie I would have flown out there and counseled the two of you myself until it did!

Good idea hanging the mistletoe over the bed......

Merry Xmas Rookie.

I hope you confirmed your New Years Eve plans this morning.


----------



## Rookie4

CM, what's going on? I have been out of the loop for a few days. If you would like to talk, PM me, I'm always available for friends to talk to.


----------



## old timer

happyman64 said:


> You OK OT?


The day started out pretty crappy - but ended on a high note. 

I'll take it!


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, what everybody expected to happen on Christmas Eve.....happened......multiple times.


Like I said.....sleep? Nope.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hoping everything works out for you Rookie 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Well, Im much more optimistic than I was.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Im much more optimistic than I was.


Well Rockie you can't leave us with just that. Elaborate man. Explain yourself.
Why?


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> CM, what's going on? I have been out of the loop for a few days. If you would like to talk, PM me, I'm always available for friends to talk to.


Thank you for asking, Rookie. It's been a rough few days. My H switched antidepressants, and he went -literally -from feeling like he loves to feeling like he hates me. Last night he texted me from the guest room where he went to sleep that he wanted me to move out. I went to MC alone today. 

He went back on his old antidepressant yesterday, and amazingly enough, he is already seeming better with me. Not great, but he was able to interact with me when I got home from work. I then took the kids out to eat while he went out with a couple friends. He just got back, and we've been chatting a bit. He's got something to do online, but I'm hoping after he'll be open to talking for a bit. 

So a rough few days, but a tiny bit of relief tonight, so that is very welcome.

Thanks again for asking.


----------



## ChangingMe

And, Rookie, congrats on a great Christmas. I am so happy for you, and for your XW. I hope things just go up from here for you, I really do.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> Well Rockie you can't leave us with just that. Elaborate man. Explain yourself.
> Why?


Well, Acabado, without getting into details. We had a wonderful time together, and connected on several levels, besides the physical one. She is truly a changed person, form what she was, and much more like the woman I first met amd married. It didn't start out very good, but it ended blissfully. I now KNOW that her words were spoken in anger, because her actions over the Holidays ,spoke volumes. A lot of what she said and most of what she did are too personal to talk about on open forum. But if I ever doubted her sincerity and her desire and love for me, those doubts are rapidly being laid to rest. I have to say, that for the first time in over two years, I'm PROUD of her.


----------



## calvin

Good to hear Rookie.
Hang in there CM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

CM, I feel like a putz going on about my good news , when you are hurting. How are things going, any better?


----------



## warlock07

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, what everybody expected to happen on Christmas Eve.....happened......multiple times.


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> It's been a rough few days. My H switched antidepressants, and he went -literally -from feeling like he loves to feeling like he hates me. Last night he texted me from the guest room where he went to sleep that he wanted me to move out. I went to MC alone today. He went back on his old antidepressant yesterday, and amazingly enough, he is already seeming better with me. Not great, but he was able to interact with me when I got home from work... So a rough few days, but a tiny bit of relief tonight, so that is very welcome.


away at relatives for a few days and just now catching up.

dear CM, i am giving you *a big long-distance hug* right now! i hope that as i write this, things with you and DD have continued to slowly get better. i know that every couple is different and there is no one right or wrong way to go about this, but you have been SO honest, loving, present, and remorseful with your BS... i will re-state the obvious and remind you of what i keep needing to remind myself: this R process is such a long and winding road, and we just have to hang on by our fingernails through the ups and downs. 

i know that the most random things can trigger me, and it's often nothing that my WS could have anticipated or prevented! these triggers can happen even when things are going well between us.

in fact, sometimes i think they happen *because* things are going well -- never happen 2 me wrote about that a while back. i have been struggling with this a lot this week. when things are going well, i feel myself coming closer to the entrance to a lion's den... and there stands my WH, saying come on in, there's no lion, it's safe in here! 

except that every time i went in before, there *was* a lion, and it tore me into pieces. and eventually my pieces sort of reached for each other and put themselves back together and crawled out.

when things go well, the entrance to that lion's den comes into view again. i think that what happens is that i become really terrified of another ripping-apart experience... so i start reminding myself of all the dangers to prevent myself from going all the way in.

sometimes the way this happens is, i actually remind MYSELF of bad things from the past. all by myself, i just dig things up. i hate it when i do this -- big waste of time, and it just ends up hurting me.

other times, it is a particular event or image. one thing that often triggers me personally is old pictures. i think cpacan said this -- i miss the happiness that i see in that couple's faces, but i *don't* miss that couple and i don't want either of them back. although their intentions were good, they led me here. what i want is to see that they have learned and changed. they both needed to grow -- to be more open and connected and communicative, among other things -- which hopefully we are doing now . 

over the holidays, one of my relatives suggested looking at some home movies that she had put together recently. i said a definite no thanks to that!

i am grateful that the holidays passed in a happy way: i really enjoyed seeing my extended family at christmas, i see my WH trying a little bit harder every day, and i am grateful that we will be returning to MC in january. 

still, i'm with EI on this one: i am not sorry to say goodbye to 2012.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> CM, I feel like a putz going on about my good news , when you are hurting. How are things going, any better?


Please do NOT apologize! I really am so happy that things are going well for you and your XW. Even in the midst of my chaos, I was checking this thread to learn how things turned out (did you use my mistletoe idea??). 

I was texting with EI yesterday, and she mentioned how things had been going well for her and B1 but she didn't want to post until things were going better for me. I told her that was nonsense! 

This thread is about hope and support. Reading about people having good times is as important as people posting when they are struggling and needing help. I find hope in the positive posts, and I can empathize and pray for those that are having a hard time. What a depressing thread this would be if we only posted about the rough times! That wouldn't be a true picture of reconciliation, which is a good thing. R is beyond hard, but there are moments of joy and love and growth, and without those, I don't think any of us would or could stick it out. Even if we aren't experiencing those good things ourselves that day, it is comforting to know that they are possible, and that others have walked this road and are doing well or are experiencing the same roller coaster ride that we are on.

I don't mean to speak for everyone, but I know that I for one appreciate reading about the good even in the midst of a difficult time personally. So please don't hesitate to post about them. I have gotten so much out of this thread, and I am grateful for all of you who post, share, and offer support on it.


----------



## ChangingMe

Oh, and Rookie, things are better than they were. Still not perfect, but DD seems to be doing a bit better. He went out with some friends, and came home and we talked just a little. I was so exhausted from not sleeping the night before, plus I seem to have caught my daughter's cold, so we will hopefully talk more this evening. He did sleep in bed with me last night, for the first time since Saturday night, so that is a very good thing. I do not sleep near as well if he's not next to me. 

Margrace, I had been thinking about you. Thank you for your kind words and the virtual hug. I do see the issue of things going well being a bit of a trigger in itself. I think this latest reaction was a good eye-opener to both of us that we have really hard work to do to process the affair and DD's emotions about it. It's easy to coast when he's feeling good, but those emotions are right under the surface. I want to deal with them head on and work through them so that they don't resurface as strongly when he does wean off his meds. 

Thanks to all of you for your support. I wish I had found TAM right after DDay (or honestly a year before, when I hadn't yet started my EA!), because it helps so much to have people to lean on when things are so rough. But at least I have you all now, and I grateful for that.


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> Please do NOT apologize! I really am so happy that things are going well for you and your XW. Even in the midst of my chaos, I was checking this thread to learn how things turned out (did you use my mistletoe idea??).
> 
> I was texting with EI yesterday, and she mentioned how things had been going well for her and B1 but she didn't want to post until things were going better for me. I told her that was nonsense!
> 
> This thread is about hope and support. Reading about people having good times is as important as people posting when they are struggling and needing help. I find hope in the positive posts, and I can empathize and pray for those that are having a hard time. What a depressing thread this would be if we only posted about the rough times! That wouldn't be a true picture of reconciliation, which is a good thing. R is beyond hard, but there are moments of joy and love and growth, and without those, I don't think any of us would or could stick it out. Even if we aren't experiencing those good things ourselves that day, it is comforting to know that they are possible, and that others have walked this road and are doing well or are experiencing the same roller coaster ride that we are on.
> 
> I don't mean to speak for everyone, but I know that I for one appreciate reading about the good even in the midst of a difficult time personally. So please don't hesitate to post about them. I have gotten so much out of this thread, and I am grateful for all of you who post, share, and offer support on it.


I agree 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> Oh, and Rookie, things are better than they were. Still not perfect, but DD seems to be doing a bit better. He went out with some friends, and came home and we talked just a little. I was so exhausted from not sleeping the night before, plus I seem to have caught my daughter's cold, so we will hopefully talk more this evening. He did sleep in bed with me last night, for the first time since Saturday night, so that is a very good thing. I do not sleep near as well if he's not next to me.
> 
> Margrace, I had been thinking about you. Thank you for your kind words and the virtual hug. I do see the issue of things going well being a bit of a trigger in itself. I think this latest reaction was a good eye-opener to both of us that we have really hard work to do to process the affair and DD's emotions about it. It's easy to coast when he's feeling good, but those emotions are right under the surface. I want to deal with them head on and work through them so that they don't resurface as strongly when he does wean off his meds.
> 
> Thanks to all of you for your support. I wish I had found TAM right after DDay (or honestly a year before, when I hadn't yet started my EA!), because it helps so much to have people to lean on when things are so rough. But at least I have you all now, and I grateful for that.


You're right about it being hard, CM. I have never agonized about a decision as much as I have agonized about the decision to R or not. I have received a ton of advice either way, and it has caused a lot of strain in some of my oldest friendships and family relationships. I would have been lots better if I had come to TAM, sooner. It is immensely helpful to get the opinions of other anonymous people (bs & ws) who are trying the same thing. Because sometimes people are standing too close to a problem, and just need the advice of somebody who has no axe to grind.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Acabado, without getting into details. We had a wonderful time together, and connected on several levels, besides the physical one. She is truly a changed person, form what she was, and much more like the woman I first met amd married. It didn't start out very good, but it ended blissfully. I now KNOW that her words were spoken in anger, because her actions over the Holidays ,spoke volumes. A lot of what she said and most of what she did are too personal to talk about on open forum. *But if I ever doubted her sincerity and her desire and love for me, those doubts are rapidly being laid to rest*. I have to say, that for the first time in over two years, I'm PROUD of her.


Man. Friend... reading this post made me feel really great. I'm very happy for you. You guys deserve good things.


----------



## B1

Hey everyone, Sorry I haven't been posting as much. I have been taking it easy, and enjoying my vacation. EI and I are still doing really well. We got in the big whirlpool tub last night and it was very nice. That's about the 3rd time in 16 years. Boy did I miss out all those years. Not anymore 



wow rookie, so glad you two are doing well and you are feeling secure in her feelings for you. Whatever she said and did must have been something special and that has to be nice.

CM, glad to hear you and DD are back to communicating again. Glad things are looking up. Like we always say and hear R is hard work and full of ups and downs. For me, sometimes, the worst times led to a breakthrough and better times.

Margrace, I'm glad things are still moving in a positive direction. So glad you two are getting back to counseling. 

My thoughts and prayers go out to all of you. Those of you on this thread are simply amazing...full of support, encouragement, help and all that when those that are supporting are also needing support too. It's giving at it's best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It takes alot of courage for a BS to do the work to reconcile. That's what I've learned tonight. Calvin hates that things have come to all this weekly councelling but he's trying and not giving up. Love him so much. As I have said a thousand times I wish I could turn back time and it never would've happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Counseling was decent,seemed to be more about my upbring though.
Dinner and drinks were kind of quiet,except for our drunk neighbor who showed up at our table,
he's,a good guy,done some body work for me a couple times,my Truck that is.
Cant describe the session,still kind of taking it in.
Every day is different,sometimes down,others...pretty good.
I have more than enough to keep plowing ahead.
I'm still letting go but I have a wonderful wife who will do anything to make us like crazy glue. 
I love my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Gee, *Rookie*, no one saw THAT coming!!! LOL 

*margrace*, I'm glad that things are beginning to look up.... even if very slowly.... progress takes time. Please keep taking care of yourself, as well.... but, I'm glad that you are feeling hopeful.

*Calvin and CSS*, we need an update on your Dad!

*CM*, B1 and I have often had some of our worst days and our best days on the same day.... true story. I think that DD is beginning to realize that Zoloft may be a necessary evil for a while longer. The fact that he realized this and began to take it again, on his own, shows his level of commitment towards his own recovery. One thing that I have come to believe throughout this process is that reconciliation begins within ourselves, whether we are the WS or the BS, before it can truly begin with our spouses.

*Bobka*, I know that Christmas without the kids must not have been as joyful as Christmas with the kids..... but if your wife said that it was one of the best Christmases ever, then she must be feeling a sense of renewed hope. That has to be a good thing, right?

*Acabado, cpacan, HM64*, I love you guys. You are some of the best of TAM.

*old timer*, I'm glad that your Christmas Day improved after getting off to a bad start.

*Warlock*, drop in more often. BTW.... I never, ever, ever got your promised pm. I guess that I will always have to wonder..... 

*bfree*, I love your posts and I glad that your are posting, here, more often.

*NEVERHAPPENTOME,RIGHT?*, (I think that's right.... I did that from memory) You have posted just a few times on this thread.... your posts are amazing.... please come back and share your wisdom, anytime. 

*Mrs. Mathias*, keep those posts coming and give us updates on things while you are away working on your production. For what it's worth, I do understand your need to fulfill your contractual obligation. I think that, although the timing could not have been worse, that your husband understands this, as well. Give him every reason to believe that you are now choosing to be a woman worthy of his trust and respect. You cannot change the past, any more than any of us can. But, you can make better choices from this day forward. I think that you want to and I think that you can. 

*Reconciler*s, there are waaaaay too many to name each of you..... I feel like I have so much catching up to do on this thread. There have been several posters that are new to the R thread that I have yet to welcome. Sometimes, B1 and I need to spend a few days away from TAM and spend them with one another. It does us a world of good. But, we follow it even when we're not posting. I love the way everyone steps up and "takes care" of one another when times are tough and the way everyone rallies around one another when the good times roll. 

I created a new photo album on TAM for Christmas 2012. It's mostly just our Christmas Tree.... but, there is a face or two in there, as well. I'm probably getting a little too brave for my own good! B1 is gonna kill me! So, if I don't post, again, that's why! Jus' kiddin'! 

Take care,
~EI


----------



## Rookie4

Ex wife had her last shift at the hospital , today. She has two weeks Vac, and moves to another clinic. I


----------



## calvin

Morning all.
Its good to hear a lot of you guys are doing pretty good.
CM,hang in there,I know DD will come around,its a slow process for us,I can go through all this crap alone or I can have CSS by my side to help me when I'm feeling down.DD needs more time yet,its hard but I have a feeling you guys will be ok.
EI,my Dad is doing better but he's not the man he used to be,he's on all kinds of med and with dementia setting in he can be a handfull.
I hate seeing him like this but what can you do?
He says thing sometimes that I know he doesnt mean.We're hoping to get him on something that will calm him down some.
Thanks for your concern.
Hope everyone has a good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Ex wife had her last shift at the hospital , today. She has two weeks Vac, and moves to another clinic. I


Good riddance to triggerville.


----------



## Rookie4

Tell me about it. Funny thing is that it triggers her much more than it does me, which I hadn't realized. She said yesterday that even going to work has been depressing almost from the first, and she has hated the hospital since D-day.


----------



## happyman64

Good for both of you then her leaving that place......


----------



## Rookie4

It's a shame, actually, because she has always loved that hospital and her job. Most of the people there have been very supportive to me and have given me loads of information when I needed it , too.


----------



## Rookie4

An interesting aside to this is what happened to me right after I kicked my ex out. Remember that my ex bragged to two of her "friends", that she had a younger man. I understand that my ex did it to save face, but that isn't the interesting part. About three weeks after, one of these "friends", hit on me really hard. Invited me to her home and promised me all of the "passion ", that my ex denied me, and that I would forget about my ex in HER arms, etc. I haven't told my ex about this. I probably should, but am undecided.


----------



## Rags

Rookie4 said:


> I haven't told my ex about this. I probably should, but am undecided.


Who would it help? Really?

(Much as I'm in favour of truth for truth's sake, we also have to live in the real world ...)


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> An interesting aside to this is what happened to me right after I kicked my ex out. Remember that my ex bragged to two of her "friends", that she had a younger man. I understand that my ex did it to save face, but that isn't the interesting part. About three weeks after, one of these "friends", hit on me really hard. Invited me to her home and promised me all of the "passion ", that my ex denied me, and that I would forget about my ex in HER arms, etc. I haven't told my ex about this. I probably should, but am undecided.


Is your ex still friends with her?


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Is your ex still friends with her?


No, my ex stopped being friends with both of them about a month after D-day and only one is still working there. I don't think it's necessary to tell my ex, because Nothing happened. I wouldn't touch that woman with somebody else's d*ck. Yuck.


----------



## Acabado

I'm all about radical honesty in marriage. No secrets. It's pertinent. She's not a child you need to withold "some truths" until they are more grown ups. I'd tell her without giving too much importante to it once she's out that work enviroment. No need to feed drama. Likely you will talk about DDay and immediate aftermath again, that's the right moment.
"By the way, do you remember...?
No need to be done in a "punishing" tone so she "wakes up", she already saw the were toxic nad got rid of them. You can share a laugh about it.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> No, my ex stopped being friends with both of them about a month after D-day and only one is still working there. I don't think it's necessary to tell my ex, because Nothing happened. I wouldn't touch that woman with somebody else's d*ck. Yuck.


It probably isn't important at all since they aren't in contact. That said it wouldn't hurt to let her know anyway. Make sure you don't put more weight on it than it deserves if you do tell her. You have handled yourself well all through this situation so a revenge fvck with her friend was certainly never something you even considered. Plus, as you state she was...ahem...not your type. If you do mention it just say it in passing and let her know you just don't want there to be anything left unsaid between you.


----------



## Rookie4

Yes, this is the way I look at it, too. I never mentioned it before because nothing happened and , at the time , what difference would it have made? I had already moved on with my life so anything about these two "friends " had zero importance.


----------



## CantSitStill

Soo how many of you are glad. to approach the new year differently and with a much clearer head? I mean, man am I looking forward to every day of making our marriage better, making better memories and most important..showing Calvin how much I am in love with him. I am looking forward to us both having much more passion for eachother and for our life than we ever had 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

CantSitStill said:


> Soo how many of you are glad. to approach the new year differently and with a much clearer head? I mean, man am I looking forward to every day of making our marriage better, making better memories and most important..showing Calvin how much I am in love with him. I am looking forward to us both having much more passion for eachother and for our life than we ever had
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Count me in on all of this. 

(Well, except I'll be showing DD instead of Calvin. )


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe we are in this together  you understand my heart as I do yours. All of the things you say here I can totally relate. I can tell you are fully remorseful and I am so sorry you are going thru this hell. We both know we caused it but we both also know we have learned from this and hate what we have done. Don't give up hope, he will see that you will not give up and someday it will get better. I've been praying for you because I totally feel your pain. I'm not sure if you have read my thread but Calvin goes through the I'm in I'm out thing alot. His mood can change within 10 min. I know he cannot help those thoughts that creep into his head and I sure wish I could and I know you feel the same. All I can say is: if he keeps trying to push you away just let him know you aren't going anywhere. We are amost at a year R and there are days in his mind it feels like D-Day all over again. Stay strong, stay positive. I can tell you already have been doing all you can to re-assure him. Never give up. It'll be ok 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CSS is right CM.
Dont give up,you'll wear him down with your love like CSS is doing me.
Her not giving up really makes me think how much she loves me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

I just discovered that, if you become a forum supporter ($4.99 for 4 months), you get unlimited PMs! Woo-hoo!


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## bfree

Ok, both my wife and I have apparently contracted the flu. I hate being sick. Plus its snowing outside. I hate snow. This is the thread I come to when I want to feel good. So I'm going to periodically come here in order to feel better. This thread is better than Tylenol Cold & Flu.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

bfree said:


> Ok, both my wife and I have apparently contracted the flu. I hate being sick. Plus its snowing outside. I hate snow. This is the thread I come to when I want to feel good. So I'm going to periodically come here in order to feel better. This thread is better than Tylenol Cold & Flu.


I hate snow, too, but driving on ice is even worse! Where do you live? I'm in Minnesnowta. 

I call snow "white hell."

Hello, everyone!


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## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I hate snow, too, but driving on ice is even worse! Where do you live? I'm in Minnesnowta.
> 
> I call snow "white hell."
> 
> Hello, everyone!


Southern New England. You'd think I'd be used to winter by now. Nope. I'd kill to move to the Carolina's.


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## calvin

I love snow,the more the better.
Lake Michigan does some tricky stuff to us,the lake can be a snow making machine.
We've had blizzards of three feet with drifts as high as eight feet.
Sometimes the plows cant keep up,I love going out in my truck in the storms,lot of fun.
CSS doesnt like it either but she has my old Silverado with new tires and 500 lbs of sandbags in the back.
I cant get a break,two feet a couple hours North of us last week and 18 inches the other day to the South towords Indianapolis.
I want snow damn it!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> I cant get a break,two feet a couple hours North of us last week and 18 inches the other day to the South towords Indianapolis.
> I want snow damn it!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So do y'all not have any right now? We actually got about 3-4 inches on Christmas, which is crazy! (We're outside of Dallas; this is only the 2nd white Christmas I've had in my life.) Of course, all that melted within 24 hours, which is fine by me. I like snow, but I don't think I could handle a whole winter of below freezing temps. This whole week has been really cold, and I'm already annoyed. It's 42 out right now, and that's the warmest we've had in a week.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Ok, both my wife and I have apparently contracted the flu. I hate being sick. Plus its snowing outside. I hate snow. This is the thread I come to when I want to feel good. So I'm going to periodically come here in order to feel better. This thread is better than Tylenol Cold & Flu.


Hope you and the Mrs. feel better soon bfree.

I'd appreciate if you guys would say a prayer for jh and his wife.
Their good people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Hope you and the Mrs. feel better soon bfree.
> 
> I'd appreciate if you guys would say a prayer for jh and his wife.
> Their good people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are they in the midst of a rough patch? I'll let Mrs bfree know and we'll send some positive vibes tonight. Thanks for letting me know. CM, we're still thinking of you and DD also.


----------



## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> Are they in the midst of a rough patch? I'll let Mrs bfree know and we'll send some positive vibes tonight. Thanks for letting me know. CM, we're still thinking of you and DD also.


Thank you, I'll take all the prayers and positive thoughts I can get for us! And I'll be praying for JH as well, like I do for all the posters on here.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Are they in the midst of a rough patch? I'll let Mrs bfree know and we'll send some positive vibes tonight. Thanks for letting me know. CM, we're still thinking of you and DD also.


No,they both have health problems,jh got out of the hospital a few days ago with heart failure and his wife suffers from some pretty bad migrains,he found her on the floor awhile ago,anurism?
They are not old but they are good people who care about others here.
Jh post quite a bit on the R thread,mine and others.
Good dude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> No,they both have health problems,jh got out of the hospital a few days ago with heart failure and his wife suffers from some pretty bad migrains,he found her on the floor awhile ago,anurism?
> They are not old but they are good people who care about others here.
> Jh post quite a bit on the R thread,mine and others.
> Good dude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh wow. I had no idea. I've read JH's posts. He is a good guy. We're pulling for them.


----------



## CantSitStill

Mrs Jh has seizures and the migraines come after and from the meds she was taking, she had finally started doing better and now Jh's health has gotten bad. They never figured out why she has these awful seizures.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

This is why Jh is always reminding us to enjoy each day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hey guys,

How is everyone doing? I keep telling B1 that he needs to post, but we are both bein' lazy these days (well I'm just bein' a little lazy..... LOL.) He's on vacation until Wednesday, so we've been staying up late, sleepin' in, eating leftovers and/or going out to eat. I keep thinking that I should start taking the Christmas decorations down while B1 is still home so that he can carry all of the boxes up/down the stairs for me. Y'all see why I don't post all of the time, anymore. We've (almost) become a boring, happily married couple. Lack of drama doesn't make for a very exciting post, does it? 

bfree, I hope that you and your wife get better soon. It's always worse when you're both sick at the same time because there's no one to make you soup and bring you a Coke with crushed ice (which is essential when you're sick!) 

I did get a pm from jh the other day and have been praying for him and his wife. He is such a gentlemen. jh, if you're reading this, get well soon, give us an update when you can and know that the Reconcilers are praying for you. 

CM, how are you and DD? I hope that things are continuing to improve after such a rough Christmas Day. How did the kids like playing in the snow for Christmas? We get to experience all four seasons, here in Kentucky, and I'd be very sad if we didn't get a couple of good blizzards every winter. But, now that all my kids are driving, it makes me a little more nervous. 

bobka, you guys probably get some seriously cold weather in the winter, right? After growing up in California, how did you end up in Minnesota? 

I see that Rookie is noticeably absent..... I'm guessing that the long overdue "hysterical bonding" phase of his reconciliation has gone into overdrive! ;-)

Okay, like I said, marital bliss makes for boring posts from EI. But, I wanted to pop in, say "hello," and tell you guys that things are going well in the B1 & EI household. I will add that after many years of "feeling invisible" around B1....... I do love the way he looks at me through his new Testosterone colored glasses. Ha Ha, I've been teasing him for months that I was going to post that! He's in some kind of T induced fog and he thinks I'm.................. Never mind!!!! ;-)


Take care sweet friends,
~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Ahh but EI we are happy that you guys are happy with no drama. And after all you have been through we love this news  It gives others hope. We just took all our Christmas deco down. We make an unbelievable team when it comes to getting things done together. When he is by my side it makes the work so much more fun  We really are gonna make it  I know we are, and we belong together and I am so excited for us and the new year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> How is everyone doing? I keep telling B1 that he needs to post, but we are both bein' lazy these days (well I'm just bein' a little lazy..... LOL.) He's on vacation until Wednesday, so we've been staying up late, sleepin' in, eating leftovers and/or going out to eat. I keep thinking that I should start taking the Christmas decorations down while B1 is still home so that he can carry all of the boxes up/down the stairs for me. Y'all see why I don't post all of the time, anymore. We've (almost) become a boring, happily married couple. Lack of drama doesn't make for a very exciting post, does it?
> 
> bfree, I hope that you and your wife get better soon. It's always worse when you're both sick at the same time because there's no one to make you soup and bring you a Coke with crushed ice (which is essential when you're sick!)
> 
> I did get a pm from jh the other day and have been praying for him and his wife. He is such a gentlemen. jh, if you're reading this, get well soon, give us an update when you can and know that the Reconcilers are praying for you.
> 
> CM, how are you and DD? I hope that things are continuing to improve after such a rough Christmas Day. How did the kids like playing in the snow for Christmas? We get to experience all four seasons, here in Kentucky, and I'd be very sad if we didn't get a couple of good blizzards every winter. But, now that all my kids are driving, it makes me a little more nervous.
> 
> bobka, you guys probably get some seriously cold weather in the winter, right? After growing up in California, how did you end up in Minnesota?
> 
> I see that Rookie is noticeably absent..... I'm guessing that the long overdue "hysterical bonding" phase of his reconciliation has gone into overdrive! ;-)
> 
> Okay, like I said, marital bliss makes for boring posts from EI. But, I wanted to pop in, say "hello," and tell you guys that things are going well in the B1 & EI household. I will add that after many years of "feeling invisible" around B1....... I do love the way he looks at me through his new Testosterone colored glasses. Ha Ha, I've been teasing him for months that I was going to post that! He's in some kind of T induced fog and he thinks I'm.................. Never mind!!!! ;-)
> 
> 
> Take care sweet friends,
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Yep , Can't get enough of that funky stuff. I would be over to her place right now getting sweaty, if I didn't have to do some donut making. I'll be done in about an hour, so she says that I should come back for a "nightcap". I told her that I probably should go home, but she said that I needed to come over , at least to take her out of the handcuffs. You have no idea what is running through my mind right now.


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## Rookie4

Like the old hunter said, " a tiger can kill you, but a little pu**y never hurt anybody".


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## calvin

I like what I hear Rookie.
Just be careful.Glad things are going good for you.
I'm doing decent myself. :-o
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

I'm in a real good mood, so I'll tell a funny story. About 15 years ago, we were staying at her folks cabin on the river. One night I got all romantic and decided to surprise her, after she got the kids to bed. I filled the tub with water, then I lit a big bunch of candles, started some incense burning , had a bottle of bubbly on ice and spread red flower petals over the top of the water. She was thrilled and turned-on to the max. We fooled around in the tub for a while the I picked her up and carried her to bed. In the morning I woke up and we were both dyed pink and so were the sheets!! The clorine in the water had leeched the color out of the flowers. We looked like a pair of lobsters.


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## Rookie4

calvin said:


> I like what I hear Rookie.
> Just be careful.Glad things are going good for you.
> I'm doing decent myself. :-o
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks , Calvin, it seems that things are indeed looking up. You and CSS have a big New Year planned?


----------



## EI

Now, I'm pi$$ed! B1 and I got into the whirlpool tub just the other night (only the 3rd time in nearly 17 years that he has gotten into it with me.) It was my suggestion, but as soon as I mentioned it, without hesitation, he immediately filled the tub with the most amazing scented bubbles, lit several candles, and poured two glasses of wine....... but damn it...... I want rose petals...... I demand a mulligan...... 

And, if my hair had not already been wet, it would have caught on fire (all those candles he lit) when B1 decided that we weren't in the tub just to take a bath..... 

B1, next time, hold a few candles and add a few rose petals! ;-)

Did I tell y'all that I love the ways he looks at me with those Testoster...... I mean rose colored glasses??? LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

In the future I think less flower petals and more flowers AROUND the tub. If I had used yellow flowers they would have put us in the hospital for Jaundace. I like looking at the pink, but not when she's all pink. The only part that wasn't pink was my ------- for obvious reasons.


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## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Thanks , Calvin, it seems that things are indeed looking up. You and CSS have a big New Year planned?


No,we're staying home this year.
I do have a funny story though,um...maybe I should'nt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Well, I've got to go un-handcuff my ex. I'm betting that those words have never been spoken on TAM, before, have they? I am going to do some really, really perverted stuff to her before I let her go. LOL


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## CantSitStill

You know what? I love being tied up..oh funny story..the last time Calvin cuffed me he freakin lost the dang key!!! I'm not kidding! It scared the scrap outa me and I haven't let him handcuff me since. It took about an hour but thank God he found the key! Anyway, we have had some fun times with "playing" I love being blindfolded mmm we need to get the kids outa the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

I am extremely claustrophobic....... there will be NO HANDCUFFS in the B1 & EI household...... EVER........ I have trouble breathing just thinking about it. My fear of elevators and having a special needs son, who uses a wheelchair, has inspired a few interesting stories over the years..... smh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Oh Man the elevaters I know what you mean EI!! I worked in a clinic with 5 floors and saw the elevators break down alot. Well thart was 14 yrs ago and I have nightmares about elevators now. Just had to get on one last week at the place I used to work and ugg one floor drove me nuts!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I handcuffed CSS to the bedpost around five years ago,put my clothes back on and went and got a six pack.
When I got home...Lets just say I was glad she was still cuffed.
I wouldnt let her go til she promised not to whoop my ass.
I thought it was funny..still do!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> You know what? I love being tied up..oh funny story..the last time Calvin cuffed me he freakin lost the dang key!!! I'm not kidding! It scared the scrap outa me and I haven't let him handcuff me since. It took about an hour but thank God he found the key! Anyway, we have had some fun times with "playing" I love being blindfolded mmm we need to get the kids outa the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, this is one of the things I like about this "hysterical Bonding", thing. We USED to be very creative sexually, but for the last 5 years we got stale and sex was quick or it didn't happen at all. We talked about it Christmas Eve and she said that it was her fault, but you and I both know it is BOTH of our faults. WE both said that would never happen again. She also said that sex with me is better than with anyone else, but questions if I believe her or not. But she also said that she would spend the rest of her life proving it is true.


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## daisygirl 41

Just popping in to wish you all a merry Xmas and a very happy new year.
Xmas has gone really well for us. I finally feel like I can give my heart to my H fully again. I have been holding part if me back, but at last I feel my heart is full if love for him and the pain is fading. We are both working on the changes we agreed on, but it doesn't feel like work, it feels natural! We have really reconnected! 

Anyway, thinking of you all, and hoping that the new year will bring us all peace, love and happiness
DG 
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

DG that's such wonderful news to hear. So glad you two are doing so well and that you have opened your heart up. Good for you!


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## daisygirl 41

betrayed1 said:


> DG that's such wonderful news to hear. So glad you two are doing so well and that you have opened your heart up. Good for you!


Thankyou. It's a big step, a leap of faith, but one I feel like I have to do if we are going to reconcile fully. It's scary to feel so vulnerable again, but I feel ready!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

DG, I am nearly there as well. I really want to take that "leap of faith", and think that I can do so safely, but I think that I will know when the time is right. 
I really can't give you much advice, except to wish you well. I really don't feel qualified to give much advice, as I'm just learning about this R stuff and consider myself unable to add anything to the good advice of the other more experienced posters.


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## margrace

hey everyone! 

interesting to hear you both mention the big leap of faith, dg and rookie -- and i am happy to hear about others getting to that point and feeling (mostly) comfortable with it.

i still don't, not quite yet. what you said, dg, about holding something back is exactly where i am now.

but things are going well -- even if they are going slowly


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## calvin

Good to hear things are moving in the right direction marg,even if slowly.
Sometimes its better that way,R doesnt go fast for me.
One step at a time.Progress is good,taking it slow means for me that you both are being carefull and trying to get it right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

The hardest part of R is getting the BS to let down their guard and show their emotions. It's so hard for them to be vulnerable after being hurt so bad and they are so scared of getting burned again. The former WS just has to be patient and continue to appreciate the chance they have been given. I sincerely love Calvin with all my heart and would be the dumbest person on this planet to ever let him go. I just wish I believed in his love for me a long time ago. Man I should write a book in order to stop walk away wives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

That makes me want to cry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> That makes me want to cry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am so dang sorry, I really mean that. I do need to be more patient when you trigger. Like you said, you wouldn't wish this on anyone, not even me, the person who put you thru this hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

A former WS wants to make the hurt to magically dissappear ASAP because we hate what we have done but that is not possible and to rugsweep would not be working on the issues and fixing what needs fixed. It takes time. I remember a couple weeks from R we we hystericaly bonding and we thought everything was better. Now we are keeping it real and bonding and healing and it's worth it. It hurts but it is making us both stronger and we are learning so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I am so dang sorry, I really mean that. I do need to be more patient when you trigger. Like you said, you wouldn't wish this on anyone, not even me, the person who put you thru this hell.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know.Thanks.
Love you honey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> A former WS wants to make the hurt to magically dissappear ASAP because we hate what we have done but that is not possible and to rugsweep would not be working on the issues and fixing what needs fixed. It takes time. I remember a couple weeks from R we we hystericaly bonding and we thought everything was better. Now we are keeping it real and bonding and healing and it's worth it. It hurts but it is making us both stronger and we are learning so much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS this sounds a lot like my ex. She told me that right after I kicked her out, she felt sorry for herself, but that it only lasted for a couple of hours, then she began to realize what she had done to me and in her words, her world came crashing down. After her breakdown, 
She began a diary of the situation, and has kept it ever since. She told me it's mine to read when I'm ready to read it, also she has recorded all of her counseling sessions and I can listen to them too, whenever I want.


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## Rookie4

BTW, her counselor sounds like a terrific person (unlike mine). Very early on, she told my ex to forget about wishful thinking and concentrate on real improvement. She said that my ex need to eliminate thinking that there is some kind of magic wand that would make it all go away and realize what was possible and what was impossible. It is impossible to unsay her hateful words, but it is possible to prove that they were not meant. It is impossible to "turn back time" but it is possible to make the future better. Things like that.


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## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> CSS this sounds a lot like my ex. She told me that right after I kicked her out, she felt sorry for herself, but that it only lasted for a couple of hours, then she began to realize what she had done to me and in her words, her world came crashing down. After her breakdown,
> She began a diary of the situation, and has kept it ever since. She told me it's mine to read when I'm ready to read it, also she has recorded all of her counseling sessions and I can listen to them too, whenever I want.


Wow Rookie,she sounds true if she is willing to give this to you.
There are people who really regret what they did .
You can see it on this thread.
Youre ex seems like she understands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Night all.
I'm going to get in bed with CSS and hold her and go to sleep soundly next to her,its where I belong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Going to "sleep", or going to bed? Not the same thing. LOL


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## calvin

Sleep,I'm tired.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Good night, Calvin.


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## Rags

calvin said:


> Sleep,I'm tired.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's always the morning


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## B1

Slept great last night....ALL night...bummer


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all! I'm definitely waiting for the clock to tick down and this year to be over. It's silly, I'm sure, but I'm looking forward to the new year like never before. I want 2012 dead and buried, and the person that I was during that time and the choices that I made to NEVER reappear again. 

I know that the impact of those choices will continue for a long time, but I hope that every day I can continue to be a stronger, more loving and committed wife to Matt than I ever have been. As someone mentioned on a different thread, I don't want our marriage to be better because of the affair, but in spite of it. I DO want our relationship to be better. There are moments where I know that is really possible, even over these last awful weeks.

Matt still wants to file for divorce, and I am ashamed to admit, I wasn't as supportive and strong in that process last night as I want to be with him. Actually, I had a complete meltdown, panicking and unable to breathe and sobbing until my whole body just gave up. It was horrible, and Matt just sat there with me through it and tried to calm me down. It's not supposed to be this way. I'M supposed to be the one strong enough to do that for him. I have to work much harder at preventing that kind of failure as we go forward. I want his choices to go as smoothly as possible in all this, and I bombed that big time last night.

Today, I'll take my Xanax and just make myself sit down and finish filling out the paperwork for us - no prodding from him. A divorce is the LAST thing I want, but so far, I can't give Matt any reasons that my previous actions haven't completely invalidated for why I want to be married to him. I just know that I love him with all my heart, and that I want to be his wife - not just a girlfriend. I want to be his in every way possible, and to build a stronger, permanent connection between us.

My thoughts are with all of you as the new year approaches, and I wish you all better, brighter days ahead, filled with joy and love.


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## Rookie4

And for you as well, MM.


----------



## MattMatt

betrayed1 said:


> iJordan, I will post this, not really wanting to but just to get a point across and to maybe help others to see how a WS could possibly hurt as bad as a BS. Not saying in every case, not saying every time, not even saying in my case, but this will hopefully give some insight into EI's frame of mind the moments leading up to the affair. And it will also show the state of our sorry marriage pre-affair.
> 
> I will post here and now what I did to her over roughly 10 years. It's not pretty, I am deeply ashamed and regretful but I was depressed, had low-t and was completely shut down emotionally. I had my own issues also.
> 
> Here we go..and remember this is ONLY touching the surface.
> 
> No I was never physical, I never ever hit her or verbally abused her but I did humiliate her, and I rejected her physically and emotionally. In 10 years I would guess we had sex maybe 3-4 times a year at most. We went for about a year before without sex, I could have gone the whole time without it. I had zero desire, none. And that meant I didn't desire her at all and she knew it.
> 
> She, in the last 3 years, got counseling, lost weight, got incredibly hot, beat depression, had a new attitude, bought sexy clothes, bought candles, perfumes, turned down the lights on more than one occasion and pranced around in front of me in her lingerie and you know what I did? I told her she didn't look very good in it, or I ignored her completely, it NEVER led to sex ever, it actually pi$$ed me off when she did it. She tried this over roughly 3 years. She tried to have an affair with me.
> 
> She stopped sleeping in our bed after a while because she couldn't handle the loneliness and hurt, you see if she even touched me I would pull away or say stop it. I did NOT want her touching me. So, she started sleeping on the couch and that was about the beginning of the end.
> 
> She got me into counseling and even the counselor knew it wasn't good then, he couldn't get through to me either. I didn't stick with it of course.
> 
> I said things in front of her friends that were degrading about her and it brings tears to my eyes as I type this. When she wanted to make love I made comments like.."It's just sex what's the big deal" she begged me once towards the end to make love to her, she was in tears and I snapped back, "Make love to you...look at you your crying"
> 
> NO ONE but her will ever truly understand the depth of my coldness and rejection that I put her through. I KNOW she suffered horribly and for a long long time. Now does it equal my pain? who is to say it does or doesn't, I know she cried a lot over the years and would cry at night in bed. I know she begged me to love her, to touch her, to hold her but I wouldn't.
> God, I was cruel at times and she hurt, she hurt bad.
> 
> She posted once on her thread about this and there is even more things I said and did, so if you want to see more it's out there.
> 
> So, you all know the rest of the story, she reached out to an old flame, and sought passion elsewhere. Not an excuse at all, but had I been a loving, caring, hands on husband she NEVER would have reached out for another man. She didn't cheat on a happy marriage or happy husband, she cheated on a $hity marriage and a cold shutdown husband. Again, she should have divorced me true..but there were reasons she felt that she couldn't. Primarily the security and well being of our children.
> 
> Am I defending her affair, NO, I am giving you some insight as to how she felt. I am 10 weeks past DDay and I am not a foolish man, I have read a lot and learned a lot and my wife IS different, her reason for the affair is not the norm. This new me could never put up with that much rejection for a month let alone for years. So when I say we had no marriage pre-affair I am not kidding.
> 
> Who is to say who hurts more, me or her?
> 
> What we are learning is that it doesn't matter now, we are HAPPILY married now, sure with some challenges but this new marriage is FAR from the old one. I love her, I hold her, I cuddle with her, we talk, we laugh and joke, and she loves me and is doing everything she can to make up for this horrible choice she made. She knows she messed up, she owns it, but I own my part too and perhaps that's were we are a tad different?
> 
> When she prances around in lingerie now...well I can tell you she isn't rejected anymore, and when she comes to me in tears because she is sorry, I hold her, and she holds me when I hurt.
> 
> This marriage is different than before, it is far better and far more fulfilling. I guess the biggest question and the biggest unknown is, will it endure. will it stand the test of time....will this R work? ....I think so, I hope so!
> 
> 
> I love you EI and I am so incredibly sorry for what I said and what I did, and for what I didn't do. I know this is hard to read, it drums up a horrible past and a lot of hurt. Believe me, I didn't like writing it, I wiped away tears more then once to write this.
> Know that I am sorry and I love you with every ounce of my being.


B1, EI, you both went through Hell. Anyone who says otherwise is projecting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> CSS this sounds a lot like my ex. She told me that right after I kicked her out, she felt sorry for herself, but that it only lasted for a couple of hours, then she began to realize what she had done to me and in her words, her world came crashing down. After her breakdown,
> She began a diary of the situation, and has kept it ever since. She told me it's mine to read when I'm ready to read it, also she has recorded all of her counseling sessions and I can listen to them too, whenever I want.


It was an incredible thing to do on her part Rookie. 
WOW


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## CantSitStill

Mrs Mathias, your post saddens me. Divorce people say is like death, like a funeral and very very hard. My best wishes to you that it gets easier for you. Sounds like you have a broken heart and I'm sorry for you. I'll be praying for ya.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Gosh one wrong choice can screw up your life and the lives of the ones you love. We all make bad choices but some of us make real bad life changing choices. I am blessed to have this chance to get my head straight and work on being a better wife, mother, sister and friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Gosh one wrong choice can screw up your life and the lives of the ones you love. We all make bad choices but some of us make real bad life changing choices. I am blessed to have this chance to get my head straight and work on being a better wife, mother, sister and friend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just about everyone deserves one chance if they really are remorseful.
I havent used mine yet and I wont.
I never want to hurt you like that.
The pain is something else but it can be overcome...once.
Love you,we're alright. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

For those of you struggling, please give it all to God, have faith and help and support others, in helping others it may help you to overcome what you are dealing with. I have learned so much thru this thread and many others here. It's hard but make that choice to be happy and to be blessed with what you have. Feeling sorry for yourself just makes each day hard to wanna get outa bed in the morning. I pray that all of you find that glitter of hope that keeps you going 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HiRoad

Ok I am new to posting here, have been reading alot of stories and want to know what everyone thinks.

I have a WAW she left 9/18 out of the blue. We physically seperated that day and have only been communicating via text since. We have 2 kids (3 & 1.5) I amd 34 she is 30. Recently she has told me that she has been dating someone, that leads me to believe that there was a posOM early on or shortly after. Maybe a case of grass is greener. I have been following the rules of engagement. She has been parting and prob with her new posOM. She has been doing shopping therapy, and eating out alot. Essentially causing alot of damange. 

My family pretty much knows everything that she has been up too, and have lost alot, if not all respect for her. They are pretty pi$$ed to say the least.

My question is, if down the road she wants to come back, is it even possible with all the damage that has been done?

How do couples reconcile after soo much damage has been casued?

How do families recover from this?


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## CantSitStill

Rookie4 said:


> CSS this sounds a lot like my ex. She told me that right after I kicked her out, she felt sorry for herself, but that it only lasted for a couple of hours, then she began to realize what she had done to me and in her words, her world came crashing down. After her breakdown,
> She began a diary of the situation, and has kept it ever since. She told me it's mine to read when I'm ready to read it, also she has recorded all of her counseling sessions and I can listen to them too, whenever I want.


Wow be very thankful because alot of WS' are not so open and willing as yours is  That's great
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

HiRoad said:


> Ok I am new to posting here, have been reading alot of stories and want to know what everyone thinks.
> 
> I have a WAW she left 9/18 out of the blue. We physically seperated that day and have only been communicating via text since. We have 2 kids (3 & 1.5) I amd 34 she is 30. Recently she has told me that she has been dating someone, that leads me to believe that there was a posOM early on or shortly after. Maybe a case of grass is greener. I have been following the rules of engagement. She has been parting and prob with her new posOM. She has been doing shopping therapy, and eating out alot. Essentially causing alot of damange.
> 
> My family pretty much knows everything that she has been up too, and have lost alot, if not all respect for her. They are pretty pi$$ed to say the least.
> 
> My question is, if down the road she wants to come back, is it even possible with all the damage that has been done?
> 
> How do couples reconcile after soo much damage has been casued?
> 
> How do families recover from this?


She is very far gone in the fog. Ugg there is nothing you can do and please don't beg..That's a huge no no when she is this far gone. I do believe in miracles..let her fall deep into the pit, once this has happened and if it has then you can come to her with your list of boundries that she MUST follow if she is totally serious and dedicated to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Please stick around this site and learn. She may or may not come back to you and if she doesn't this is a good place for you to arm yourself and find the happiness within yourself. It hurts like hell but you will survive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HiRoad

CSS - thanks, i dont know that she will come back, but i am confident that at some point she will. I am not waiting around for her, and yes i have not begged. She has a posOM, but I think it will burn out fast. What man in there right mind wants a 30 yr old with 2 little toddlers, and is going through a divorce, lives at her moms, and has no $$?

So the odds are in my favor, but if something comes along my way, that is a diff. story. 

I just dont see how people R after all this?


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## CantSitStill

HiRoad said:


> CSS - thanks, i dont know that she will come back, but i am confident that at some point she will. I am not waiting around for her, and yes i have not begged. She has a posOM, but I think it will burn out fast. What man in there right mind wants a 30 yr old with 2 little toddlers, and is going through a divorce, lives at her moms, and has no $$?
> 
> So the odds are in my favor, but if something comes along my way, that is a diff. story.
> 
> I just dont see how people R after all this?


I know what you are saying, I really do and my husband has been thru hell trying to figure out how I wanted a loser..I mean, this guy lied and lied and was in prison for years and has his check garnished for a ton of money he owes everywhere. He had the nerve to call up my hubby and tell him lies like that he screwed me all over the house and I had an abortion and it was his kid and that he owes him money for it..The guy was never in our home and we never did anything physical aside from a peck on the lips, not even a french kiss. I couldn't believe all that crap he said to taunt my hubby. I guess maybe he was hoping my husband was the type of guy to beat the crap outa me if he had believed these lies..he continued to text and call him till we went to the police...that's the short veriom of what went on..this loser was seeing other women at the same time but my hubby was smart enough to send them letters with the truth about him. His last call was him crying that my husband ruined his life..gee more like he ruined our marriage. I do not say it's the ex OMs fault. I am the one that persued him. I totally own all of what I did. It's up to you what you do. I just happen to be lucky for this one last chance. I don't deserve it but I totally love and appreciate my husband to death. I did8't believe he loved me and that's how I started the E A. Stupid facebook, I looked up my old bf. I am so ashamed. I am just so grateful for this chance to improve our marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HiRoad

Wow that is a he!! of a story! that is what i am talking about, how do families, freinds, and couples heal from all that damage?

Forgiveness, really?

How long did it take CSS? 

How long were you two S?


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## calvin

HiRoad said:


> Wow that is a he!! of a story! that is what i am talking about, how do families, freinds, and couples heal from all that damage?
> 
> Forgiveness, really?
> 
> How long did it take CSS?
> 
> How long were you two S?


Hey,HiRoad.
We were seperated less than a week.
How long did it take? Well thats still an ongoing process,eleven months out and it still hurts but I'm letting go.
I'm letting go because CSS is real and true about how sorry she is and what she's been doing to help us heal.
She knows she f'd up big time and I dont see it ever happening again.
Your wife hasnt hit the reality wall yet but she will soon.
Yeah,my POS is a huge loser,he has nothing.
Hell they almost repo'd his denures.
How the hell can you be 41 and have dentures?
Prison? The drugs?
He presented him self to be someone he wasnt.
He never ever got a hs degree or a GED.
Your wife is in deep,you need to shock her out of it.
I had to.
Good luck,its hard but can be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

I feel a bit out of the loop; haven't posted in a few days. Don't mean to miss anyone in this post. 

Rookie, so glad things are going well. I think your XW sounds amazing; I really think you two have the potential for a much better relationship this time around. Hope you have a fun NYE planned!

Daisygirl, I was so happy to read your post. I hope things continue to go so well, and that this is a wonderful year for your marriage. 

EI & B1, yea for boring! I am sure I speak for more than just me when I say that boring sounds like a great thing to aspire to right now! I've had enough excitement for a long time. I am glad things are going well. And I'm a little jealous that EI has a jacuzzi tub --I want one of those! 

CSS, I'm with you on the giving things over to God. My relationship with God suffered terribly during my affair -how could it not? I knew God was not pleased with what I was doing. After DDay, it was so freeing to confess, and I really do feel forgiven by God. Doesn't make what I did right by any means, but I feel strength from the Lord and I can lean on Him when things are going badly. I am glad I have that relationship back on track. 

HiRoad, welcome, and I'm sorry you are here. CSS has answered well. As for your question on how people can reconcile, that's a hard one. Not everyone can; it's very difficult -for both partners. There has to be a lot of insight and remorse on the part of the wayward spouse, and a lot of grace and strength on the part of the betrayed. It's also a very long process. I cheated on my husband, and my affair ended in June. He is still on the fence about whether he can move past it or whether he wants to end the marriage. I just have to spend each day proving how sorry I am and how much I am working to be the kind of wife he deserves. You would do well to stick around here, read lots of posts -especially any "Welcome to TAM" or "Newbie" posts or stickies. Again, I'm sorry you are here.

As for me and DD, things are . . . ok. Just ok. MUCH better than this time last week, but not super great. He got down again today, but after a nap, he seems to be in a little better spirits. His parents are keeping the kids for us tonight, so we are about to go out on the town a bit. I can see that going either way -he and I having a great time, or him getting down or angry and wanting to come home. I am really hoping for the former. I am beyond excited to see 2012 go, and I have never been so excited to ring in a new year. I want to kiss my husband at midnight, and I am really hoping he will allow me to do so. Cross your fingers for me!

To all of you on the R thread, sending great wishes for a wonderful New Year. We all deserve it, I think. I feel like I am going to learn so much this year, and I am looking forward to it.


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## CantSitStill

I was in the E A for 4 mo..I did not tell hubby till the end of January, had been in contact with the exOM since Oct. Well I told hubby about it end of January, told hm I wanted to date the OM and he told me to stop talking to him or leave. I left immediately..stayed at my sisters, told the ex Om what happened and he wanted to see me, I told him no that I needed time to clear my head. Well the OM did not like that so he quit talking to me, ignored calls and texts. After talking to a lawyer a few days later I had a bad bad nervous breakdown. Calvin (my hubby) was at work and had a bad feeling so he texted me and I told him I needed a ride to the mental institute. I was serious. I could harldy breathe..Calvin came and got me from my sister's house, fed me and took good care of me..he says I looked like a corpse. I didn't eat or sleep sinc I left. Well we hsterically bonded , i stopped contact with the exOM before hubby even rescues me anyway..after a while we had alot of horrible times dealing with what I did. We are here about a year later and still in counselling..It is n.ot easy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Happy New Year all.
CM,just dont give up.Smother him with love,let him know youre sorry,say it whenever he's down and say it often,lots of I love yous help but also hurt...well for me it did,R is not one size fits all.
Your H is stuggling like I did (do) sometimes.
Youre a good person CM,you deserve a chance,just like CSS does.
Dont give up.He's scared,be there for him and wear him down with your love.
I think the New Year is symbolic for us all here.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HiRoad

Thank you so much for the insight, i will be followign this thread to see if i can pick any pointers as i go through this process. 

R is a difficult process.


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## CantSitStill

HiRoad said:


> Thank you so much for the insight, i will be followign this thread to see if i can pick any pointers as i go through this process.
> 
> R is a difficult process.


Calvin and I have a thread called The Ups And Downs under the private members section. After you post so many times you should be able to get in the private members section.. I am so sorry you are even here to begin with. I know you are going through alot of emotional hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HiRoad

Thank you CSS, i am still in the Going Through Divorce and Seperation or Dealing with Infedility section.

I hope for a R, but it is seems that the window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller. 

Dont understand how a mother of 2 could just leave. And how posOM could just walk-in.

I dont know if my STBXW has it in her to put the hard work in.

Time will tell.


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## CantSitStill

The unknown is scary. She has yet to realize the damage she has caused you and your kids. I know when the reality set in with me it was pure shock and helf hatred. Still not sure how to forgive myself. You just don't know what the future holds for you and her. The outcome could be good or bad but if she does come back to you it's not gonna mean you're all better..it's gonna be hellish either way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Terrible, terrible night. DD is hurting so bad, and he won't let me comfort him. Please pray for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

What a night. DD got really bad off, but he spoke with Walkonmars from here & got calmed down. It's nearly 5 now and we haven't been to sleep. Had some HB, so I'm not complaining, but I think we are both exhausted. Thank God the in laws have the kids so we can sleep in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Praying.


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## EI

I'm so sorry, CM. I'm praying for you and DD. I'm praying for all of us. 

Welcome to the "R" thread, HiRoad. No one really wants to be here, but we try to look after one another the best we can. We may very well be a classic example of "the blind leading the blind." But, we do our best.

So, instead of saying "Happy New Year," with gusto, I think I'll just say that I hope that 2013 is a far better year for all of us than 2012 was.

Take care,
~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

ChangingMe said:


> Terrible, terrible night. DD is hurting so bad, and he won't let me comfort him. Please pray for him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thoughts and prayers for both of you xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

So sorry CM, praying for you both!

HiRoad, R is possible, it's not easy as you can see here. But families can and do survive this. It's an intense roller coaster ride, one that no one wants to be on, but you are anyway so you just buckle up and hang on.

If you go back a few hundred or thousand posts you can see our journey. EI and I are in a better place today, we are 7 months out and doing really well. It's still not always easy, but the easy days are more than the harder ones now. 

And I love her, I really truly love her, I love us, our family, and our life right now. Oh, it comes with some hurt, some really bad moments, but overall, it's a really good life right now.


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## HiRoad

I pray that the fog lifts for her soon. I am still keeping my journey in the Going through Divorce and Seperation section, I will keep you all apprised as things progress.

It is soo hard, my family is big and i dont know that sharing all that is happening to me is a good idea. I feel that they are starting to really hate the mother of my children .... my wife. 

That is why i posed the question? 

Since it has only been 3.5 months since we seperated, i am certain that her new fling will not last.

I am confused. I am preparing myself for both if she decides to come back and if she does not. My biggest problem is that, since i did not go out with OW, how do spouses forgive an ifidelity? Especially a PA, when the other spouse did not have one.


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## theroad

HiRoad said:


> Ok I am new to posting here, have been reading alot of stories and want to know what everyone thinks.
> 
> I have a WAW she left 9/18 out of the blue. We physically seperated that day and have only been communicating via text since. We have 2 kids (3 & 1.5) I amd 34 she is 30. Recently she has told me that she has been dating someone, that leads me to believe that there was a posOM early on or shortly after. Maybe a case of grass is greener. I have been following the rules of engagement. She has been parting and prob with her new posOM. She has been doing shopping therapy, and eating out alot. Essentially causing alot of damange.
> 
> My family pretty much knows everything that she has been up too, and have lost alot, if not all respect for her. They are pretty pi$$ed to say the least.
> 
> My question is, if down the road she wants to come back, is it even possible with all the damage that has been done?
> 
> How do couples reconcile after soo much damage has been casued?
> 
> How do families recover from this?


Start your own thread in this section. Bring us up to date as what happened and what you have done.


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## walkonmars

It might be helpful is one of you invited DD to this board.
He now knows it doesn't "commit" him to R


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## HiRoad

theroad said:


> Start your own thread in this section. Bring us up to date as what happened and what you have done.


Good idea, i will do it today TR.


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## MattMatt

ChangingMe said:


> Terrible, terrible night. DD is hurting so bad, and he won't let me comfort him. Please pray for him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have prayed for both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Thank you all. Things still are not good. After DD got off the phone with Walkonmars, he texted me to see if I was awake, which of course I was. He came in our bedroom, and we talked, and then we had sex and finally feel asleep about 5. He was very, very drunk, and I know that played a part in everything. 

We slept till about 10, and then he seemed ok (hungover, but ok) when he woke up. As he talked though, he seemed to get more angry and bitter, and started talking to me about what I would do if we divorced -where I would live, what stuff he'd keep, what stuff he'd let me have. I cried and tried to actually think through what I would do if it comes to that. 

The subject switched to his depression, and he got more angry and resentful. I asked if he would talk to someone, since he doesn't want to talk to me -our MC, one of the other guys on here that messaged him last night. He said no. But then a few minutes later, he was on the phone. 

He's at such a low. And, while I'm scared for me, I am way more scared for him. I don't know what to do, and I feel like I have brought him to this point, but I can't make him better.


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## Acabado

I'm sorry CM.
Sending positive thougths your way.


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## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> Thank you all. Things still are not good. After DD got off the phone with Walkonmars, he texted me to see if I was awake, which of course I was. He came in our bedroom, and we talked, and then we had sex and finally feel asleep about 5. He was very, very drunk, and I know that played a part in everything.
> 
> We slept till about 10, and then he seemed ok (hungover, but ok) when he woke up. As he talked though, he seemed to get more angry and bitter, and started talking to me about what I would do if we divorced -where I would live, what stuff he'd keep, what stuff he'd let me have. I cried and tried to actually think through what I would do if it comes to that.
> 
> The subject switched to his depression, and he got more angry and resentful. I asked if he would talk to someone, since he doesn't want to talk to me -our MC, one of the other guys on here that messaged him last night. He said no. But then a few minutes later, he was on the phone.
> 
> He's at such a low. And, while I'm scared for me, I am way more scared for him. I don't know what to do, and I feel like I have brought him to this point, but I can't make him better.


That's just the thing CM. You can't make it better. Only he can do that. You can be there for him but he has to make the choice to leave his pain behind. As I said in another thread happiness is a choice, forgiveness is a choice, love is a choice. He has to choose those things. And I really do believe that he is punishing himself as much as he is punishing you. I really think he feels somewhat responsible for what has happened. In point of fact, all BS's are somewhat responsible for creating the environment that breeds affairs. But at some point you work on those issues and drop the baggage aong the side of the road. DD can't seem to do that. He is clinging to his pain because he thinks if he lets it go it validates your betrayal and consequently validates his responsibility in creating the overall atmosphere that allowed the affair to occur. When I talk about forgiveness I mean he needs to forgive himself as well. And he needs to love himself again too. But he needs to make the choice to do that. Nobody can choose to do it for him.


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## walkonmars

CM check PM


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## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> That's just the thing CM. You can't make it better. Only he can do that. You can be there for him but he has to make the choice to leave his pain behind.


I know this, and I hate it. Because he is fighting everything that might help him -antidepressants, IC, etc. He is mad and bitter that he has to do these things because he didn't need them before, and I understand that. I would be mad too. But he is SO low, and he needs help, but I can't make him get it. I am so angry at myself for getting him to this point. 



walkonmars said:


> CM check PM


I checked it & told DD about it. I will wait to read the rest when/if he gives me the go-ahead. Thank you again for speaking with him last night. He needs people, and he won't let me be there right now.


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## jim123

Can he go see his friend in Oaklahoma for a weekend. He needs an outlet.


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## ChangingMe

jim123 said:


> Can he go see his friend in Oaklahoma for a weekend. He needs an outlet.


That friend is coming down this weekend (he's a photographer for a newspapers, so he's coming down here to shoot a game), and he is supposed to spend the night. I always stay out of the way when he's here, and I know DD loves spending time with him. 

DD spoke to his mom a bit this morning, though I don't know what all he said. He shut himself in our closet though, so it was obviously a call he didn't want me to hear. He went to pick up the kids from there, and he hasn't returned, so hopefully he is talking more with her. She loves him, knows about the situation, was the BS in her marriage (his dad cheated about 25 years ago, and they R'ed and are happily married), and she is a psychologist. I am glad he is reaching out to her; I know she has been worried about him. 

I'm so worried about him. I love him so much. I really do. I hate to see him hurting. I hate that I hurt him.


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## Mr Blunt

> From MattMatt post 3518
> 
> Quote of B1
> This marriage is different than before, it is far better and far more fulfilling. I guess the biggest question and the biggest unknown is, *will it endure*. will it stand the test of time....will this R work? ....I think so, I hope so!


*to B1 and EI*
It is always dangerous to predict if an R will last or endure with a betrayal involved.
From what I have read about you and EI I would bet my money on you both enduring. WHY?


*Because EI had a broken spirit and a contrite heart
Because I see EI doing EVERYTHING that is possible to help herself and B1.
Because EI knows that God is a game changer and that He is undefeated; I think it is something like 
1,000,000,000,000,000 WINS and 0 loses at this time.



Because I see a GREAT attitude by B1. 
I have seen B1 in the mist of his terrible pain still come to the rescue for E1.
B1 is so honest about his part in the pre-affair years that can only come from a healing heart and a renewed spirit
Because B1 is very grateful to EI for her help healing him but also knows where to get his healings that EI cannot provide.*


Yes I would bet my money on B1 and EI!! 
I have reflected on my 25 years of R with my wife and I can see similarities with me and B1 and my wife and EI. Even though it has been 25 years I can vividly recall the reasons that we have endured and have had a LOT more joyful times than down times. I am seeing that in B1 and EI.


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## jim123

ChangingMe said:


> That friend is coming down this weekend (he's a photographer for a newspapers, so he's coming down here to shoot a game), and he is supposed to spend the night. I always stay out of the way when he's here, and I know DD loves spending time with him.
> 
> DD spoke to his mom a bit this morning, though I don't know what all he said. He shut himself in our closet though, so it was obviously a call he didn't want me to hear. He went to pick up the kids from there, and he hasn't returned, so hopefully he is talking more with her. She loves him, knows about the situation, was the BS in her marriage (his dad cheated about 25 years ago, and they R'ed and are happily married), and she is a psychologist. I am glad he is reaching out to her; I know she has been worried about him.
> 
> I'm so worried about him. I love him so much. I really do. I hate to see him hurting. I hate that I hurt him.


Hang in there. Reach out to everyone you can. Have you talked to you MIL. He needs to get his mind off the A and the OM.


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## walkonmars

CM 
If you get a chance to talk to his mom, remind her that showing and demonstrating empathy can go a long way in helping DD. 

She can be a wonderful asset.


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## B1

Mr Blunt said:


> *to B1 and EI*
> It is always dangerous to predict if an R will last or endure with a betrayal involved.
> From what I have read about you and EI I would bet my money on you both enduring. WHY?
> 
> 
> *Because EI had a broken spirit and a contrite heart
> Because I see EI doing EVERYTHING that is possible to help herself and B1.
> Because EI knows that God is a game changer and that He is undefeated; I think it is something like
> 1,000,000,000,000,000 WINS and 0 loses at this time.
> 
> 
> 
> Because I see a GREAT attitude by B1.
> I have seen B1 in the mist of his terrible pain still come to the rescue for E1.
> B1 is so honest about his part in the pre-affair years that can only come from a healing heart and a renewed spirit
> Because B1 is very grateful to EI for her help healing him but also knows where to get his healings that EI cannot provide.*
> 
> 
> Yes I would bet my money on B1 and EI!!
> I have reflected on my 25 years of R with my wife and I can see similarities with me and B1 and my wife and EI. Even though it has been 25 years I can vividly recall the reasons that we have endured and have had a LOT more joyful times than down times. I am seeing that in B1 and EI.


Thank you Mr. B 
Yes I would say at this point EI and I are a safe bet. 
I'm sure we still have some rough moments and days to go through but I feel very confident in the fact that we have already endured the worst. I think we have a very bright and happy future ahead of us. 

EI is singing a lot today around the house which means she is happy and that makes me happy. I want a happy EI and I know she wants a happy B1. 

We are really doing this, we are really surviving this. We are really truly experiencing happiness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> I know this, and I hate it. Because he is fighting everything that might help him -antidepressants, IC, etc. He is mad and bitter that he has to do these things because he didn't need them before, and I understand that. I would be mad too. But he is SO low, and he needs help, but I can't make him get it. I am so angry at myself for getting him to this point.
> 
> 
> 
> I checked it & told DD about it. I will wait to read the rest when/if he gives me the go-ahead. Thank you again for speaking with him last night. He needs people, and he won't let me be there right now.


CM, this is one of the most difficult issues a BS has to face, IMO. Not so much the anger , as the resentment. Why do I have to go to counseling, why do I have to forgive , why do I have to deal with the mind-movies, when I didn't cheat? It's terribly depressing . This is where the WS needs all of his/her patience and humility. I had a real bad episode of this before our divorce, and gave it to my ex with both barrels. But take heart, it does pass.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

I just went back and re-read all of my old posts. Boy, was that stupid! 

But I did determine one thing from the experience: Several of you here were very kind to me when I was in the worst place I'd ever been, offered comfort and positive comments when many were ripping me a new a$$hole. 

Thank you EI, B1, CM and Calvin. You were a Godsend. I am forever grateful.


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## pidge70

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I just went back and re-read all of my old posts. Boy, was that stupid!
> 
> But I did determine one thing from the experience: Several of you here were very kind to me when I was in the worst place I'd ever been, offered comfort and positive comments when many were ripping me a new a$$hole.
> 
> Thank you EI, B1, CM and Calvin. You were a Godsend. I am forever grateful.


If I was one you think of that was ripping you, I want you to know it was not my intent. My heart actually hurt to your situation. Still does actually.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

pidge70 said:


> If I was one you think of that was ripping you, I want you to know it was not my intent. My heart actually hurt to your situation. Still does actually.


Well, you were pretty balanced, and did say some encouraging things. Sorry I left you off my list.

Don't hurt for me now, Pidge. Things are going pretty well. We have really reconnected, and, in the all-in-all, I would say that we are reconciling well. It gets better every day. Glad you guys seem to be doing well, too.


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## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> Yes I would bet my money on B1 and EI!!
> I have reflected on my 25 years of R with my wife and I can see similarities with me and B1 and my wife and EI. Even though it has been 25 years I can vividly recall the reasons that we have endured and have had a LOT more joyful times than down times. I am seeing that in B1 and EI.


Thank you very much, Mr. Blunt. I am truly humbled by your faith in me.

B1 has been unbelievably merciful towards me throughout this whole situation. His strength, devotion, understanding, patience, compassion, determination, humility and commitment to rebuilding our marriage is such an incredible testimony of his true character. With his words and actions, he has reminded every day since May 27th, 2012, of all of the reasons that I knew that he was the man that I would marry someday, even when we were just teens.

We have had our share of challenges throughout our nearly 29 year marriage...... but, I can say with all sincerity that we have never been closer, more in love, more commited and more prepared to face whatever challenges life continues to send our way. Let me be clear.... I don't recommend infidelity to anyone as a means of "improving" their marriage. I would give anything that I have (with the exception of the health, happiness and well-being of B1 and my children) if I could turn back time and B1 and I could find a different path to repair a marriage that was already so broken, prior to my infidelity, that I honestly did not believe that there was any hope of saving it. I can, also, say, with all sincerity, that anyone who believes that a _genuinely remorseful WS_ "gets away" with anything, is sadly mistaken. There is no "getting away" from yourself, your mind, your thoughts, your heart, your soul and your conscience. There is no escape from the (wo)man in the mirror. There is no waking moment that I am not filled with regret and disillusionment at what I allowed myself to become.

I cannot change yesterday, I can only live each day, from this day forward, by choosing to be the person that I spent my whole life believing that I was. I want to be a good Christian, a good daughter (although my parents have passed, I still would like to honor them by leaving something positive behind) a good wife, a good mother and a good friend. There is so much more that I would like to accomplish and with B1's love, companionship, support, encouragement and commitment to us, I think that, perhaps, there is a chance that I might find myself, again. B1 loves me..... why now? I don't know. I ask him that every day. But, I am gradually starting to believe that he genuinely does. Infidelity doesn't just play games with the minds of the betrayed. It is such an assault on the human psyche, that I'm convinced it plays games with the minds of the unfaithful, as well.

Having said all of that, I would like to leave this post on a positive note. B1 and I fell in love, got married, eventually bought our first home, had babies..... in short we had a life, a very beautiful life. We took on a great deal of responsibility when my brother could not raise his children and my parents' health and age prevented them from doing so any longer. In less than 6 years we went from being DINKS (double income, no kids) to having 5 children, including a special needs child, and assuming the full-time care-giving roles for my parents in the last several years of their life. Add in a very stressful (at the time) job for B1, that included a great deal of travel for him, when our children were young and my parents were still living. Throw in some health issues, some very serious, depression, for both of us, and low Testosterone for B1, along with the tremendous financial challenges of feeding, providing medical care, clothing, sheltering and educating 5 children. Then, factor in that I am the type of person who is very extroverted and reaches out to and for others during a crises and B1 is/was much more introverted and withdraws from others during a crises. That's just a very, very, very small tip of the iceberg of the last couple of decades of our life. It's a recipe for disaster. B1 and I have endured at least a dozen different major life events, any one of which would put a strain on even the strongest of marriages.

Y'all know the Taylor Swift song: "We are never, ever, ever, ever getting back together???" Well, no matter how beyond repair you may think your marriage is....... Infidelity is NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER...... the answer. DON'T DO IT..... I'm not saying that every marriage can or should be saved. But, even if the marriage isn't salvageable (although sometimes when you think it isn't.... it really is) you will never save yourself with infidelity. You are not just betraying your spouse. You are betraying yourself. And you have to live with yourself for the rest of your life.......

*The positive note: We're still standing!!! :smthumbup:
*

I love you, B1!!! The last two weeks were wonderful! When is your next vacation?


----------



## EI

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I just went back and re-read all of my old posts. Boy, was that stupid!
> 
> But I did determine one thing from the experience: Several of you here were very kind to me when I was in the worst place I'd ever been, offered comfort and positive comments when many were ripping me a new a$$hole.
> 
> Thank you EI, B1, CM and Calvin. You were a Godsend. I am forever grateful.


You know, the truth is, I was guilty of "ripping" you in one of my posts. And, that is soooooo not like me. Your pain, at the time, was palpable and my heart was, literally, broken for you. I did the one thing that I frequently accuse others on TAM of doing, and that was projecting my own "stuff" onto your wife. I knew what I had been guilty of doing and I knew that one of the big issues in your marriage was similar to a big issue in my own. I found it difficult not to project what I was capable of doing onto what I thought that your wife was capable of doing. I know better than that, and I believe that I have apologized to you in the past. But, just in case I didn't, it wouldn't hurt to do so, once again. I am so sorry for speaking so harshly and making assumptions that I had no way of knowing. I know that "tough love" has it's place on TAM. But, I also know that compassion is often lacking when it is most needed. I think that in the future, I will stick to what I think I do the best and that is to offer support and encouragement.

I hope that you and your wife are in finding your way back to one another and into a happier, more fulfilling marriage for both of you.


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> If I was one you think of that was ripping you, I want you to know it was not my intent. My heart actually hurt to your situation. Still does actually.



Stop by more often, Pidge, we love hearing from our Reconcilers. I hope that you and Joe had the wonderful holidays that he was so eagerly anticipating!


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## Rookie4

I hope everyone had a safe and a Happy NY. We had lots of fun , after a first period fumble that very nearly cost us the game. But we recovered (due to honesty on her part and some pretty fancy footwork on mine) and went on to R victory. I've seen so much football that I'm using football metaphors. LOL


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## Rookie4

I thought that we would go out for dinner and dancing (actually I CAN dance, somewhat) and I thought we would stop at a Bistro we used to go to quite a lot , when we were married. When I told her where we were going she tried to suggest another restaurant, but I was almost there, so I went ahead. We were walking down the sidewalk and she , very quietly, said that she doesn't go to that restaurant any more, because She and Brad went there once, and she was ashamed to show her face there. The look on MY face must have been pretty unpleasant because she started crying and ran for the car. Well, as fast as you can run in stillettos.
She began to honk (she does that when she is really sobbing, sounds like a goose in torment) and say that she ruined everything, she ruined our marriage, she ruined our love, she ruined our family, ETC........You get the idea.
Well, I'm NOT having it. I told her that I LIKED this restaurant, I wanted to go to this restaurant ( they do a killer Prime Rib) and I had decided that I was going to take BACK my restaurant from Brad and make it ours again, f*ck the triggers and the other people, for her to fix her face and get her a** in gear. You would have thought I had given her the Nobel Prize. She was about three off the ground all night.
You know, I'm not very good at this R game, but sometimes I get it right.


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## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> I thought that we would go out for dinner and dancing (actually I CAN dance, somewhat) and I thought we would stop at a Bistro we used to go to quite a lot , when we were married. When I told her where we were going she tried to suggest another restaurant, but I was almost there, so I went ahead. We were walking down the sidewalk and she , very quietly, said that she doesn't go to that restaurant any more, because She and Brad went there once, and she was ashamed to show her face there. The look on MY face must have been pretty unpleasant because she started crying and ran for the car. Well, as fast as you can run in stillettos.
> She began to honk (she does that when she is really sobbing, sounds like a goose in torment) and say that she ruined everything, she ruined our marriage, she ruined our love, she ruined our family, ETC........You get the idea.
> Well, I'm NOT having it. I told her that I LIKED this restaurant, I wanted to go to this restaurant ( they do a killer Prime Rib) and I had decided that I was going to take BACK my restaurant from Brad and make it ours again, f*ck the triggers and the other people, for her to fix her face and get her a** in gear. You would have thought I had given her the Nobel Prize. She was about three off the ground all night.
> You know, I'm not very good at this R game, but sometimes I get it right.


You are doing great, Rookie. Good for you. Way to reclaim!


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Rookie4 said:


> You know, I'm not very good at this R game, but sometimes I get it right.


I'd say you're DAMN good. Impressive, Rook.


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## Rookie4

Even a blind monkey gets a banana sometimes


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## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I just went back and re-read all of my old posts. Boy, was that stupid!
> 
> But I did determine one thing from the experience: Several of you here were very kind to me when I was in the worst place I'd ever been, offered comfort and positive comments when many were ripping me a new a$$hole.
> 
> Thank you EI, B1, CM and Calvin. You were a Godsend. I am forever grateful.


Oh I'm pretty sure I was one of the ones that ripped you. I tend to get very frustrated if I feel a BS is getting screwed over and is hiding his/her head in the sand. But I am very glad you are doing better and hope each and every day brings you more joy and happiness.


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I thought that we would go out for dinner and dancing (actually I CAN dance, somewhat) and I thought we would stop at a Bistro we used to go to quite a lot , when we were married. When I told her where we were going she tried to suggest another restaurant, but I was almost there, so I went ahead. We were walking down the sidewalk and she , very quietly, said that she doesn't go to that restaurant any more, because She and Brad went there once, and she was ashamed to show her face there. The look on MY face must have been pretty unpleasant because she started crying and ran for the car. Well, as fast as you can run in stillettos.
> She began to honk (she does that when she is really sobbing, sounds like a goose in torment) and say that she ruined everything, she ruined our marriage, she ruined our love, she ruined our family, ETC........You get the idea.
> Well, I'm NOT having it. I told her that I LIKED this restaurant, I wanted to go to this restaurant ( they do a killer Prime Rib) and I had decided that I was going to take BACK my restaurant from Brad and make it ours again, f*ck the triggers and the other people, for her to fix her face and get her a** in gear. You would have thought I had given her the Nobel Prize. She was about three off the ground all night.
> You know, I'm not very good at this R game, but sometimes I get it right.


Wow, way to take charge. Nice one rookie!


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## margrace

*** thinking of you, cm, and hoping that you and dd are hanging in there ***

i wanted to submit some state-of-the-R facts to you all to see what you thought. 

many of you on the thread know my story -- for those who are newer: my WH and i had many years of a deadened marriage pre-A. my d-day was in march 2011, and since then R had ups and downs due to WH's continuing to lie and have contact with AP, and due to his extreme difficulty in talking about feelings, etc (he was always like that). we had 2 brief separations in that time -- handful of days both times. the most recent was in early november. at that time, i finally retreated a bit emotionally and pulled myself together. still hoped for R, but just stopped focusing on it (and him) so much, and started giving energy to myself, my job, friends, etc. this change in me was followed by some kind of change in H's perspective, and he began to participate in R in a different way, as i will describe.

*this is the really hard part of where we are now*: H has not yet confessed to everything from the past. this is now known between us -- he is no longer denying it. we have discussed this as something he can work on with the therapist (H will see him alone next week) but in the meantime i am in sort of a holding pattern. i can't fully work on rebuilding trust until we have truth between us. strangely, we are still making progress in some ways (see below) but it's very hard being patient while the other pieces get put into the puzzle.

*the hopeful parts*: 

* H now acknowledges that he will need to come clean in order for us to go forward. (in the past, he maintained that he saw no need for continuing to talk about his mistakes from the past and refused to do so.)

* he told me on new year's eve that his new year's resolution is to think every day about our relationship and what he needs to do to rebuild it -- said that for a long time, he was not thinking about *us*. he accepts that he wlll need to work on a long-term basis to make it safe for me to trust him again someday, and that currently, there is no reason for me to do so. "i did this to myself," he said.

* he also stated that he understands that all this requires him to work on himself. "there's only so much that you can do," he said to me. "i need to work on myself and my behavior." (in the past, he has vigorously resisted anything that sounded introspective or therapy-like.)

* he actively asks me about triggers, etc. and listens as i talk about how i'm feeling. he looks a bit uncomfortable at these times but at least he is doing it.

other pieces:

* H told me that when we first decided to work on R, he was not convinced that it could (or should) work. he was not 100% certain that there was a marriage worth saving, and he also believed that he did not deserve to be with me and that i would be better off without him.

* also told me that he realizes now how much he stands to lose if he loses the marriage. he said that somehow he did not fully understand that before. "i finally looked into the abyss," he said.

soooo.... so many of you have counseled me to take a day at a time, and that is what i am trying to do. but it is still hard and makes me feel crazy sometimes: inside of a few minutes, i can feel really hopeful about the small positive changes that i see, and then suddenly feel an urge to just forget it and GO, just get on with my life without him so that i don't get hurt again.

such a hard process. and i don't want to give up when maybe things are finally going in the right direction....?

okay, thanks for reading


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## EI

Rookie4 said:


> I told her that I LIKED this restaurant, I wanted to go to this restaurant ( they do a killer Prime Rib) and I had decided that I was going to take BACK my restaurant from Brad and make it ours again, f*ck the triggers and the other people, for her to fix her face and get her a** in gear. You would have thought I had given her the Nobel Prize. She was about three off the ground all night.
> You know, I'm not very good at this R game, but sometimes I get it right.



WOW...... Well played Rookie, well played!!! I am seriously giving you a standing ovation from the peanut gallery! I am so darn proud of you! :smthumbup:


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## EI

margrace said:


> soooo.... so many of you have counseled me to take a day at a time, and that is what i am trying to do. but it is still hard and makes me feel crazy sometimes: inside of a few minutes, i can feel really hopeful about the small positive changes that i see, and then suddenly feel an urge to just forget it and GO, just get on with my life without him so that i don't get hurt again.
> 
> such a hard process. and i don't want to give up when maybe things are finally going in the right direction....?
> 
> okay, thanks for reading


margrace,

It appears to me that the "real" hard work of a true reconciliation has actually begun rather than the false reconciliation that your WH subjected you to in the past. What I mean is that it appears that your husband is genuinely on board this time. Reconciliation is the hardest thing that B1 and I have ever done in our entire life.... and we have been through some things that a fair amount of the American population will never begin to experience. Still, this has consumed us more than anything else in our life ever has. There will be good days and bad days ahead. Therapy can be a very gut wrenching process.... in fact, it is almost required that it be gut wrenching to be effective. Your husband will absolutely be "uncomfortable" when discussing/disclosing "the facts" to you. I would be concerned if he didn't look "uncomfortable." I often tell B1 when we are having a difficult conversation that husband and wives should NEVER be having these kinds of conversations because infidelity should NEVER happen.

It sounds like your husband may be ready to face the consequences of his actions and has begun to understand that infidelity is not something that can be rug swept and then successfully put behind you. There is no getting around it, no going over it, no going under it..... you have to wade through it.... every bit of it. 

I wouldn't choose to relive the last 7 months of my life for any reason..... but, I would not trade the relationship that B1 and I have now, either..... so, was all of the hard work of reconciling that we have done in the last 7 months and will continue to do for the rest of our lives worth it? Yes, for me, I can say with absolute certainty that it was worth it. B1 and I are experiencing a love like we have never experienced in our nearly 29 years of marriage. I only wish that we had taken a different path to reach our destination. 

Continue to take care of yourself, margrace. I think that when you let your husband know that your life would go on with or without him and that you would find joy and value and meaning in your life, all on your own, if need be, he heard that loud and clear. I will say that B1 made it pretty clear, early on, that he wished to reconcile with me. But, he also, in the midst of his pain, made it very clear that with or without me, that his eyes had been opened and that he, now, planned to have a wonderful life whether I was in it or not. I heard that and I decided "like Hell he would have a wonderful life without me...." If he were still willing to be, he was mine, and we would be having that 'wonderful life' together. I have yet to regret that decision! 

Take care,
~EI


----------



## Acabado

That was great Rookie. Reclaiming places is something I also did. 

margrace
This is what a WS friend of mind always says; uncomfortable is not unable. This should be your husband new mantra.
I read some hope for a real R you want to suppress, the signs are there. Crossing my fringers.


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## Rookie4

Margrace, as you know , I don't know sh*t, but it does seem that your hubby is finally boarding the R train, for real. So now my advice is to keep it real. Keep him working and thinking in positive ways, and don't hesitate to point out bad behavior. As much as love, he needs guidance.


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> WOW...... Well played Rookie, well played!!! I am seriously giving you a standing ovation from the peanut gallery! I am so darn proud of you! :smthumbup:


You know, EI, I really appreciate all of the positive comments posters give me, but, at the same time, I'm really hesitant to give advice, myself. I really don't know sh*t from Shinola.


----------



## B1

Rookie4 said:


> You know, EI, I really appreciate all of the positive comments posters give me, but, at the same time, I'm really hesitant to give advice, myself. I really don't know sh*t from Shinola.


Rookie, A lot of times it isn't what you know, it's how you feel and how you handle situations that help others. It's your experiences that you share that truly help. Good or bad, sharing on here helps others.

The whole resteraunt ordeal is simply inspiring and sharing that helped others, including me. I have a hard time staking my claim on experiences that EI and the xOM had. I am still insecure when it comes to certain things they did. Now, EI, she's ready to reclaim it all, make it all ours. I am getting there, it's still tough though. It still hurts sometimes when I see certain resteraunts and hear some songs etc. 

Reading what you did though was very inspiring, thanks for sharing it.


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## margrace

EI said:


> margrace, it appears to me that the "real" hard work of a true reconciliation has actually begun rather than the false reconciliation that your WH subjected you to in the past. What I mean is that it appears that your husband is genuinely on board this time.





> *acabado*: This is what a WS friend of mind always says; uncomfortable is not unable. This should be your husband new mantra. I read some hope for a real R you want to suppress, the signs are there. Crossing my fringers.





> *rookie*: Margrace, as you know , I don't know sh*t, but it does seem that your hubby is finally boarding the R train, for real. So now my advice is to keep it real. Keep him working and thinking in positive ways, and don't hesitate to point out bad behavior. As much as love, he needs guidance.


thanks, friends! i appreciate so much your read on my situation. i tend to agree with you all. yes, it seems like these are promising signs, the most promising yet.... so why do i feel so bad 

i know at least part of the answer to that one. i feel myself going down that @*!!# f'ing path again, the one where i start feeling hopeful. before, i wanted so desperately to be on that path... and this time, everything inside me is screaming, NO, NO, NO.

cynical fearful inside voice says: maybe he has just upped his game. maybe he just knows more of the right things to say so that he can keep his home, etc with me while secretly doing whatever he wants on the side. he might even believe what he is saying to me -- who knows? i think he believed some of his own lines in the past as well.

y'all, i am so terrified of being lied to again, so so terrified. 

of course R means taking a risk, it always does. and if the worst happens, if he lets me down again, i know that it won't kill me. (right, margrace? you *do* know that, right?) i put myself back together before, and i can do it again... in fact, this time, i am going in much stronger and with a clear vision of my life going on happily without him.

so why do i FEEL like this will kill me? seriously. so crazy! i put so much work into being patient and forgiving so that we could get to a place like this, where we had a decent chance for real R -- and now that we are here, i want to RUN for my life. 

it's exactly the wrong time to lose heart. i don't want to lose heart. i need to figure out how to manage all of these danger signals that i keep getting from my insides... and just put one foot in front of the other...


----------



## old timer

Glad to see everyone making progress.

With the hope of an R for us seemingly growing more unlikely every day (I've made some real faux pas in that regard, and really not sure that R is right for us anyway), I have honestly thought about unsubscribing from this thread. It is sometimes painful.

But seeing that attitudes can sometimes inexplicably soften (w/ the proper care and feeding, of course), your stories give me hope from day to day.

Keep fighting the good fight, my friends.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

OM has decided to drive to Minnesota to drop of stuff WW bought while on her trip to see him. He will be here for a day or two. 

I knew this was coming; it was part of the plan when we agreed to reconcile, but her insistance that they maintain a distant friendship is most disturbing. I have been assured that there is no spark, that this is nothing but friendship based on common interests (Christmas collecting, antiques, stuff I have no interest in whatsoever), but it's still so hard.

I have heard that I need to say that it's him or me, and I want to say that, but do I want to lose my marriage over something like this, or do I want to accept and understand that this marriage, this reconciliation will just not be what I hoped and wanted it to be?

I wasn't going to present this to you all, knowing how much of a beating I'll get, but, in the interest of the thread and how we all work together on this stuff, thought I'd put it out there.

Please pray for me over the next couple of days. I do not know how I'll react when I see this guy. If I even see him.


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## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> OM has decided to drive to Minnesota to drop of stuff WW bought while on her trip to see him. He will be here for a day or two.
> 
> I knew this was coming; it was part of the plan when we agreed to reconcile, but her insistance that they maintain a distant friendship is most disturbing. I have been assured that there is no spark, that this is nothing but friendship based on common interests (Christmas collecting, antiques, stuff I have no interest in whatsoever), but it's still so hard.
> 
> I have heard that I need to say that it's him or me, and I want to say that, but do I want to lose my marriage over something like this, or do I want to accept and understand that this marriage, this reconciliation will just not be what I hoped and wanted it to be?
> 
> I wasn't going to present this to you all, knowing how much of a beating I'll get, but, in the interest of the thread and how we all work together on this stuff, thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> Please pray for me over the next couple of days. I do not know how I'll react when I see this guy. If I even see him.


Oh boy. I'm going to take a few deep breaths here. I can feel the blood rising and the veins in my neck hardening.

Can I ask you why your wife would want to hurt you like this? She obviously knows that this is painful for you. Why would she intentionally put you through this much pain?


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## calvin

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> OM has decided to drive to Minnesota to drop of stuff WW bought while on her trip to see him. He will be here for a day or two.
> 
> I knew this was coming; it was part of the plan when we agreed to reconcile, but her insistance that they maintain a distant friendship is most disturbing. I have been assured that there is no spark, that this is nothing but friendship based on common interests (Christmas collecting, antiques, stuff I have no interest in whatsoever), but it's still so hard.
> 
> I have heard that I need to say that it's him or me, and I want to say that, but do I want to lose my marriage over something like this, or do I want to accept and understand that this marriage, this reconciliation will just not be what I hoped and wanted it to be?
> 
> I wasn't going to present this to you all, knowing how much of a beating I'll get, but, in the interest of the thread and how we all work together on this stuff, thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> Please pray for me over the next couple of days. I do not know how I'll react when I see this guy. If I even see him.


Ah crap bobka,thats just not right.
CSS told me while she was trying to brake it off maybe her and POS could still be friends?
Never.
Praying for you man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> OM has decided to drive to Minnesota to drop of stuff WW bought while on her trip to see him. He will be here for a day or two.
> 
> I knew this was coming; it was part of the plan when we agreed to reconcile, but her insistance that they maintain a distant friendship is most disturbing. I have been assured that there is no spark, that this is nothing but friendship based on common interests (Christmas collecting, antiques, stuff I have no interest in whatsoever), but it's still so hard.
> 
> I have heard that I need to say that it's him or me, and I want to say that, *but do I want to lose my marriage over something like this*, or do I want to accept and understand that this marriage, this reconciliation will just not be what I hoped and wanted it to be?
> 
> I wasn't going to present this to you all, knowing how much of a beating I'll get, but, in the interest of the thread and how we all work together on this stuff, thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> Please pray for me over the next couple of days. I do not know how I'll react when I see this guy. If I even see him.


Bobka, this isn't beating you, it's me trying to help protect you.
Why would you loose your marriage over this? Hasn't your wife chosen you? Would she trash you if you told her that their continued relationship is ripping you apart and that you would like it to stop?


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## Rookie4

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> OM has decided to drive to Minnesota to drop of stuff WW bought while on her trip to see him. He will be here for a day or two.
> 
> I knew this was coming; it was part of the plan when we agreed to reconcile, but her insistance that they maintain a distant friendship is most disturbing. I have been assured that there is no spark, that this is nothing but friendship based on common interests (Christmas collecting, antiques, stuff I have no interest in whatsoever), but it's still so hard.
> 
> I have heard that I need to say that it's him or me, and I want to say that, but do I want to lose my marriage over something like this, or do I want to accept and understand that this marriage, this reconciliation will just not be what I hoped and wanted it to be?
> 
> I wasn't going to present this to you all, knowing how much of a beating I'll get, but, in the interest of the thread and how we all work together on this stuff, thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> Please pray for me over the next couple of days. I do not know how I'll react when I see this guy. If I even see him.


HSE, if you are willing to settle for less, that is exactly what you will get. Look at my situation, and the situations of a great many other posters. Can you think of even one where the affair partners continue to have contact, and reconciliation is progressing? Now every situation is different, granted, but to me this seesm like a deal breaker and a half and was one of the major reasons why I never considered R until I was sure that contact was minimal and that she was actively working on breaking all contact. I can say that IF there was still contact, Christmas and New Years would NOT have taken place, and I would not be considering R. Have some pride.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

No beatings, Hope Springs Eternal. Harsh advice is dealt to those who have no clue and need a good two by four to the head to get them back to reality. I don't think you need a two by four, but perhaps the crack of a willow branch? 

I think you ultimately know what you need to do, I can feel it in your post. You guys have been making good progress, but her going NC with the OM is part of the heavy lifting she must do for you. Affairs create harsh consequences, and this is one of them. Their friendship is one of the sacrifices that must be made in the aftermath. In reality, their friendship ended when the affair began, so she ended it long ago.

You need to be very honest with yourself on this, and not focus on what her reaction might be etc. Now is the time for YOU. What do YOU want? What can YOU live with? Are you honestly going to be ok with this guy staying in your lives in any way? I am guessing we all know the answer to that question.

I think the key will be in how you approach the conversation with her. You need to stay calm and in control. No yelling, no commanding and no accusing. Your goal is to make sure she understands your position on this. NC is a requirement for the future. A marriage is between two people, not three. You cannot allow a person who has threatened your marriage and your family to maintain any form of relationship or presence. He has demonstrated he is not a firend of your marriage, end of story.

I think you need to play hardball here. Make it clear it's a deal breaker for you, and not open for debate. You will not tolerate his continued presence or any communication with him. Tell her this is her choosing him or you. You aren't manipulating or controling. It's her call, but you get to set the terms of moving forward.

Help your wife lose the last of her fog here. Deep down, she has to know this is the only chance for longterm R too. The only way for you guys to move forward is to put all aspects of the affair behind you. Tough to do if she is still friends with him.

Ultimately, it's your call man. Just be truly honest with yourself, and don't focus on fear. Ultimately, you may have to be willing to lose your wife and marriage if you want to save it. Good luck!


----------



## Rookie4

Right now, Bobka, by maintaining contact, she is, in esssence, choosing him over you. Can you live with that? What percentage of a marriage is enough for you? You seem to have very real self-esteem issues. I hope it works out, but I wouldn't bet on it , if I were you.


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## ChangingMe

Oh, Bobka, I'm sorry. No beating from me either, but this does make me sad for you. I think you need to share with her how painful this is for you. I know you are a not a my-way-or-the-highway type of guy, and since your wife seems to sincerely be wanting to be with you and heal the marriage, I would talk with her about how this is going to do a lot of damage. 

Honestly, I don't care how much money she spent on whatever it is she bought or how much she loves the stuff, they are still items tied to the OM and that painful experience. They should be trashed. There is no reason they should be in your house. OM certainly doesn't need to be bringing them up north to drop them off. To me, it sounds like he is trying to rekindle something, and even if not, it still is a bad idea, even if all it does is bring up painful memories and concerns for you. 

If she doesn't recognize this on her own, then you need to make her see it. Again, I don't think you have to be a jerk about it, but you do need to be the man of your family and let her know that this is only going to damage the progress the two of you have made, and the OM needs to not come for a visit. 

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this.


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## EI

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I have heard that I need to say that it's him or me, and I want to say that, but do I want to lose my marriage over something like this, or do I want to accept and understand that this marriage, this reconciliation will just not be what I hoped and wanted it to be?
> 
> I wasn't going to present this to you all, knowing how much of a beating I'll get, but, in the interest of the thread and how we all work together on this stuff, thought I'd put it out there.
> 
> Please pray for me over the next couple of days. I do not know how I'll react when I see this guy. If I even see him.


Just putting this post on TAM took courage..... Now dig a little deeper, find the rest of that strength that you know you have and tell your wife that this is not the kind of marriage that you envisioned or deserve. You know what you want to do, you know what you need to do, you know right from wrong in this situation. I know that your marriage is not perfect. But, the absence of a perfect marriage cannot be the justification for your wife carrying on what appears to be an EA, even with your knowledge..... if not consent. 

Can/should married men and women have close friends of the opposite sex? I don't really know. Some people may be able to do that without ever putting themselves at risk of crossing any inappropriate boundaries, while others cannot. But, once an inappropriate relationship with someone has occurred, it is never acceptable to continue that relationship while still in the relationship that the inappropriate relationship violated. 

That's my take on your situation, HSE........

Take care,
~EI


----------



## Rookie4

Bobka, Nobody is saying that you have to approach this issue without long and deep thought. But, there comes a time , when you need to stand for up for yourself, and draw the line. Remember, she may cross it, she may not, but you WILL feel better about yourself, if you do.
Believe me, when my wife called me wanting to come home, I thought long and hard about it, before refusing. Had I let her come back, without consequences, would we be where we are, right now? I don't think so. There is an old saying, "you don't know what you've got til it's gone'. My ex wife now KNOWS to the bottom of her soul, how much I am worth.....everything. She gets it, in spades. If you devalue yourself, by settling for less than 100% recommitment (which includes NC with the OM) then if she continues to disrespect you, you have only yourself to blame, because you enabled it.


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## ChangingMe

Margrace, thank you for the kind thoughts for me and DD. 

I am happy for you and your H, and I agree that it seems like he is starting to 'get it' and is willing to put in the hard work to try to make the marriage work. That is awesome. 

I know it can't be easy for you. I get the desire to run -you have been hurt BADLY, and more than once. You would be dumb to trust blindly. And yet it shows how strong and smart you are by cautiously proceeding. And though it may seem a bit of an oxymoron that you are feeling so strongly about jumping ship, just as soon as it seems like he's ready to do the work, I kind of understand that too. If he doesn't seem invested, then it has to be easier to keep your walls up and stay strong for yourself. But once he is trying to reconnect and reach out to you -which you want -it causes you to lower your guard and respond. Which sets those caution lights and alarms off in your head, telling you to retreat, because this is where you got hurt before. Or at least that is my best guess of how it feels. 

I think you are doing things just right. Proceed with caution. Take care of yourself, but also remind yourself that if R has any chance of working, you BOTH have to be willing to try. That does not mean you have to jump in without caution, but you also can't run and expect the marriage to have a chance. And continue to remind yourself that NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, you will survive. It will not kill you. At times, it really does feel like it will. I think DD and I have both felt that way. But we're still standing. And you are too. 

Take care, Margrace. I so want good things for you. You really have such a sweet spirit that comes through on here, and you deserve some peace and happiness this year.


----------



## ChangingMe

EI said:


> *once an inappropriate relationship with someone has occurred, it is never acceptable to continue that relationship while still in the relationship that the inappropriate relationship violated. *


I am going to quote this and bold it. I think this is the crux of the problem. There is a chance this man means nothing of significance to your wife, but he is significant to you and your marriage because he came between it. Therefore, he HAS to be out of the picture. There really can't be a negotiation on this, IMO.

Didn't you tell me that your wife took "Not Just Friends" out of your hands and read it before you got a chance to? I haven't gotten a chance to read the copy I just bought, but I have to think that it would strongly discourage her continuing any contact with this person. Maybe you can use the book to help emphasize the issue here.


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## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> Oh, Bobka, I'm sorry. No beating from me either, but this does make me sad for you. I think you need to share with her how painful this is for you. I know you are a not a my-way-or-the-highway type of guy, and since your wife seems to sincerely be wanting to be with you and heal the marriage, I would talk with her about how this is going to do a lot of damage.... If she doesn't recognize this on her own, then you need to make her see it. Again, I don't think you have to be a jerk about it, but you do need to be the man of your family and let her know that this is only going to damage the progress the two of you have made, and the OM needs to not come for a visit.


hse, i'm with cm here. 

i know how hard it is to put these things together: 1) good advice that you know is right, and 2) who *you* are and where you are in your own process. you've often seen me struggling with that (and i still am).

i think, as cm has said, that you are not a kick-'em-to-the-curb kind of guy. and you are wonderful! so be you  and just be honest. 

maybe let her know something like: although you can't prevent her from taking this course of action, you also can't pretend along with her that this is a simple matter of returning belongings, and that your heart is not on the line here -- it's clear that it is. you can't pretend that this does not negate the progress that you two have worked so hard for. you can't pretend not to notice that she is now choosing to sacrifice the precarious little new beginnings of a new chapter of your marriage. 

and then go do something to take care of yourself. do something that you enjoy, whether it's something deep or something frivolous. and write to us.

the ball will be in her court and we will be rooting for her to make the loving choice.


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## Acabado

What are your wife's priorities, Bobka?
Where is the respect, taking into acount your spuse wellbeing?
It's not about whether they are stil in EA mode or not. It's about ... other things.

What is MC's opinion about the continued contact, about this visit?


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## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Hope Springs Eternal
> OM has decided to drive to Minnesota to drop of stuff WW bought while on her trip to see him. He will be here for a day or two.
> 
> I knew this was coming; it was part of the plan when we agreed to reconcile, *but her insistance that they maintain a distant friendship is most disturbing.* I have been assured that there is no spark, that this is nothing but friendship based on common interests (Christmas collecting, antiques, stuff I have no interest in whatsoever), but it's still so hard.
> 
> I have heard that I need to say that it's him or me, and I want to say that, *but do I want to lose my marriage over something like this,* or do I want to accept and understand that this marriage, this reconciliation will just not be what I hoped and wanted it to be?


HSE
If your wife will lose your marriage because you demand that there be no more relationship; then your wife is not putting you ahead of the other man.


Does your wife not know how much this will hurt you?


You are the one that will have to live with whichever decision you make but I will tell you that RESPECT plays a big role in marriages. *Your wife is not respecting you enough. I hope you respect yourself.*


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## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> Oh, Bobka, I'm sorry. No beating from me either, but this does make me sad for you. I think you need to share with her how painful this is for you. I know you are a not a my-way-or-the-highway type of guy, and since your wife seems to sincerely be wanting to be with you and heal the marriage, I would talk with her about how this is going to do a lot of damage.
> 
> Honestly, I don't care how much money she spent on whatever it is she bought or how much she loves the stuff, they are still items tied to the OM and that painful experience. They should be trashed. There is no reason they should be in your house. OM certainly doesn't need to be bringing them up north to drop them off. To me, it sounds like he is trying to rekindle something, and even if not, it still is a bad idea, even if all it does is bring up painful memories and concerns for you.
> 
> If she doesn't recognize this on her own, then you need to make her see it. Again, I don't think you have to be a jerk about it, but you do need to be the man of your family and let her know that this is only going to damage the progress the two of you have made, and the OM needs to not come for a visit.
> 
> I'm sorry you are having to deal with this.


CM, as much as I like you, I disagree with you here. Why is it that if Bobka stands up for himself, he is guilty of "tossing her to the curb"? As far as I know Bobka has been nothing but understanding with his WW and she is using his natural affection as a way of maintaining contact with the OM (an EA) I'm not trying to scupper his marriage but what kind of marriage will it be with the OM still involved?


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## calvin

R is hard enough for me and CSS never got physical,unless you count three quick pecks on the lips as physical.....sigh but eleven months out and I'm still stuggling.
I just could'nt do it if there was any kinda of contact with the OM even if it was only once in a great while.
Good luck bobka
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

I have to stay out of this discussion. I really like bobka and I'm so flippin mad right now I don't want to say anything to hurt him.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Well, the karma bus sideswiped OM today. His truck broke down on his way here. Don't know where he is, whether he's continuing on to here or what.

What's most frustrating is that, in our discussions, my wife just won't accept how much this hurts me. She DOES NOT GET that this is wrong. Yeah, she's reading Not "Just Friends" - how is she missing the part where contact cannot continue. Maybe she's not to that part yet <SARCASM>

She asked if I wanted to go antiqueing with them - offered to make this completely open. Nope, don't wanna do that. She just needs to see that this is flat out wrong. Look how long it took her to get to remorse for her trip. She's an incredible, caring person, but somehow, when it comes to this, she's just callous. I cannot for the life of me figure this out.

Don't know what's next. It may take more time before she "gets it." I just don't know. No answers for you guys at this point. 

Thanks for your support. I know that a lot of you are mad about this; mad at my wife for doing it, and mad at me for taking it from her. I just don't know what to do that's practical and realistic.


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## Rags

HSE, seems like she's missing the point - like it's a blind spot for her? Screw loose?

Have you told her, clearly, and bluntly, that you are not ok with this, that you don't like, it, and that she's chooseing to hurt you - and that this makes you question everything else to do with R?


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## calvin

Ohh bobka...come on man.....ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

calvin said:


> R is hard enough for me and CSS never got physical,unless you count three quick pecks on the lips as physical.....sigh but eleven months out and I'm still stuggling.
> I just could'nt do it if there was any kinda of contact with the OM even if it was only once in a great while.
> Good luck bobka
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You couldn't? Calvin, it's amazing what a person can do, when faced with a situation.


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## calvin

MattMatt said:


> You couldn't? Calvin, it's amazing what a person can do, when faced with a situation.


No M&M,after all he said to me about CSS,look at my post on my thread today,I've seen the POS on the road here and there,one day he'll be close enough for me to get him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Dude, you are *KILLING* us. 

So you are allowing your wife to go on a DATE with this guy???? 

You understand that's what this is, right? What do you think your wife thinks of a husband that allows his adulterous wife to continue dating the posom? What do you think the posom thinks of you? Do you think they respect you? That they view you as a strong and confident man? 

Bobka, you know you don't deserve this. You know you are worth so much more. You need to demand more. You need to give your wife an ultimatum on no contact, and you need to let the other man know he is not to contact either of you ever again.

We are here to support you, but you have to support yourself too. Continuing to let people sh1t all over you and smiling along the way is NOT going to lead to a happy Bobka. Please be honest with yourself, and demand better. 

Karma is trying to right this thing, but it can only do so much man!

Do NOT let this man anywhere near your wife or family. He is a cancer and you must cut him out.


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## calvin

NH2MR....is right bobka,my wife insisted she be able tol date the POS and get to know him......I kicked her out,POS never came to her rescue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

I think OM has chickened out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

ugg I had to stop even looking at the ex OMs facebook page, blocked him. He is dead to me. The just friends thing will never work and think about this guy being with your wife. With you along and not wanting to kick his butt? Oh my gosh..she needs absoulte no contact with him. You don't wanna lose her..well you will if you let her continue to talk to him. She needs consequences or she will get away with it. The only way to keep her is to say NO. Yeah she might wanna divorce but let her decide how much you mean to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

old timer said:


> I think OM has chickened out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very possible
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

calvin said:


> Very possible
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it would be a mighty uncomfortable sitch for the OM. 

If I were in his shoes, I'd be thinking about possible gunplay at the worst, and - at the least - having to deal w/ a very pizzed-off husband. 

Nothing wrong w/ OMs vehicle. He's scared sh!tless, IMHO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

old timer said:


> I think it would be a mighty uncomfortable sitch for the OM.
> 
> If I were in his shoes, I'd be thinking about possible gunplay at the worst, and - at the least - having to deal w/ a very pizzed-off husband.
> 
> Nothing wrong w/ OMs vehicle. He's scared sh!tless, IMHO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup,mine talked real big,a lot.
Guess he must of had his Sunday best on,couldnt get his clothes dirty or mama would give him a whoopin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Rags said:


> HSE, seems like she's missing the point - like it's a blind spot for her? Screw loose?
> 
> YES, THIS! :iagree:
> 
> Have you told her, clearly, and bluntly, that you are not ok with this, that you don't like, it, and that she's chooseing to hurt you - and that this makes you question everything else to do with R?


I've said parts of that, yes.


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## old timer

K, got a mutually WS expecting me to babysit her effing cats while she cuckolds me for a weekend w/ OM???

How loud can I say: "NO sweetheart...not in your wildest mother-effing dreams" ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Dude, you are *KILLING* us.
> 
> So you are allowing your wife to go on a DATE with this guy????
> 
> I made it clear to her how flat out _wrong_ that is.
> 
> You understand that's what this is, right? What do you think your wife thinks of a husband that allows his adulterous wife to continue dating the posom? What do you think the posom thinks of you? Do you think they respect you? That they view you as a strong and confident man?
> 
> I don't really care what HE thinks of me. He's nothing. What she thinks of me, well, I can't figure out how she feels that I'm gonna think this is okay. I asked her repeatedly how she would feel if she was in my shoes, and she finally said, "I don't know, I guess it would depend on the situation." I may have to show her, I guess.
> 
> Part of this is how badly she wants that sh!t she bought while she was out there. But he wouldn't be making this trip if it were just a delivery.
> 
> Bobka, you know you don't deserve this. You know you are worth so much more. You need to demand more. You need to give your wife an ultimatum on no contact, and you need to let the other man know he is not to contact either of you ever again.
> 
> We are here to support you, but you have to support yourself too. Continuing to let people sh1t all over you and smiling along the way is NOT going to lead to a happy Bobka. Please be honest with yourself, and demand better.
> 
> Not smiling, believe me. I hear you, all of you.
> 
> Karma is trying to right this thing, but it can only do so much man!
> 
> Do NOT let this man anywhere near your wife or family. He is a cancer and you must cut him out.


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## joe kidd

Hope.......Man I don't know what to say. I would be livid, beyond rational thought.


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## bfree

Bobka, what would happen if you said to her that this will hurt you so much that you would have no choice but to divorce her? What would she say if you said that her trip to see him still gives you nightmares and if she tries to bring any of those things into your house you will destroy them? What would she say if you told her you are so angry at the OM that if you see him you will beat the crap out of him and end up in prison? I'm thinking you have not communicated to her just how wrong this really is. I'm thinking you are so afraid of losing her that you won't be honest with her. You do realize that not being honest with her isn't fair to her either right?


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## Acabado

Start packing her stuff. And tell her you are going to persue this man if he dare to cross the town borders. And every f0cking antique she boughht ther is going to be burnt if she tries to bring it home. Do it calmy but more serious than a heart attack.
Seriously man. Start packing. Prepare her a "woman cave" in the middle of the stuff she has been hoarding.
Tell her you are sick of being disrespected. Don't try to explain, reason with her. Just do it, like the comercial.
If she dare to complain tell her to go and f0ck herself or to call MC, the Pastor or the children. Tell her to explain herself with them or to call you back.


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## Mr Blunt

HSE-Bobka
You maybe different than me but this is a HUGE issue!
It is so HUGE that I would take a stand. 


FIRST
As Acabado said I would immediately tell the CHILDEN and the pastor the position that your wife has on this issue.


SECOND
I would call the police an tell them that this man is not to be allowed onto your property and that if comes to your house that you are gong to call the police to have him removed.

THIRD
I would tell my wife that if she overruled me and allowed him onto the property or she left to go be with him that you will file for a separation agreement.


FORTH
I would make a plan so that you have several options for action if she ever disrespects you in this manner again. This is a must even if she backs down and goes along with your plan to keep the OM competely out of both of your lives.

Bobka
I will support you either way you go but I see your wife as being very inconsiderate or completely mixed up in the head, or selfish. No matter what is wrong with your wife I encourage you to not allow any disrespect from either the OM or especially your wife.

*I am sure your wife has some very good points but they are not enough to allow her to disrespect you in such an inconsiderate and selfish way.

Your wife will love you more when she respects you more.*


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## Rookie4

Bobka, reality check time. Your wife is still engaged in an affair with another man. She can call it whatever she likes, but it is what it is. You are enabling her to do so, by being weak and timid. So how is that going for you? Has she stopped seeing the OM? No. Does she have more respect for you? No. Are you further along towards reconciliation? No. Is your family in a better place? No. What have you gained by your weakness? Nothing. I do not believe that there is a single case I've read on TAM, where a weak and vacillating BS has successfully reconciled. So, you do the Math, Copernicus.


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## Rookie4

BTW, Bobka, never for a minute believe that you wife has a "blind spot", she knows EXACTLY what she is doing, and she is FULLY aware of your weakness and that there will be no consequences for her cheating. I'm sorry as hell to be so blunt, but the only person who is blind here, is you.


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## calvin

Listen to these people bobka....please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Well, I'm going back to the "blind spot" issue, here, even though, Rookie, you first suggested it, then "overturned your ruling". 

She is a wonderful, compassionate woman. She loves me like nothing else. She just does not see that carrying this on hurts me so badly. I do not, for the life of me, understand this. 

What I think has to happen right now is some outside help. Nothing I am saying is getting through. What I think has to happen now is some outside help. I am going to schedule an appointment with either the MC or her father, who is the spiritual head of the family, and have us talk it out in that context. That's the only way I think she will get it through her head. My threats to leave or divorce will just make things worse, spoil what R progress we have made.

I don't give a sh1t about the stuff she wants. It's dishes that match a set my mother gave her, and she's always hunted for them. They are just dishes. He can ship them to her.

By the way, OM chickened out. He's not coming.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

*Just to state some truisms here, for perspective:*



bfree said:


> Bobka, what would happen if you said to her that this will hurt you so much that you would have no choice but to divorce her?
> 
> *This one, I don't know right now.*
> 
> What would she say if you said that her trip to see him still gives you nightmares and if she tries to bring any of those things into your house you will destroy them?
> 
> *I don't have nightmares, and I don't care about the stuff. It's just stuff.*
> 
> What would she say if you told her you are so angry at the OM that if you see him you will beat the crap out of him and end up in prison?
> 
> *This is not how I feel. I don't want to beat him up. He took advantage of a situation my wife created. The issue is between me and her. He's pretty much nothing.*
> 
> I'm thinking you have not communicated to her just how wrong this really is. I'm thinking you are so afraid of losing her that you won't be honest with her. You do realize that not being honest with her isn't fair to her either right?


*I am completely honest with her.*


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## EI

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Thanks for your support. I know that a lot of you are mad about this; mad at my wife for doing it, and mad at me for taking it from her. I just don't know what to do that's practical and realistic.


Bobka, no one is mad at you. On the contrary, I think we are all very concerned for you because we care about your well-being. Obviously, it is much easier for "us" to be objective about this because we are on the outside looking in. I know that virtually _everyone_ here has had thoughts such as, "No one understands that my situation is unique, my spouse is different, this advice won't work for me," but those very thoughts are exactly what makes your situation like everyone else's. The facts in each situation may be slightly different, but there are certain things that remain the same for all. No contact is essential. I know that in workplace situations that there are times when that cannot be completely avoided. I know that in this economy that people cannot always just quit their jobs and/or find a new one. Although some would say that a marriage is more important than a job, and I agree, it is hard to work on a marriage if you can't pay the bills so I do sympathize with that. But having minimal work contact and going antiquing are two totally separate animals.

I told B1 yesterday that you should either inform your wife and/or the OM that he could either throw away the purchased items or ship them to you are your cost. But, then I read CM's comments and realized that those items would be a horrific trigger for you and that they have absolutely NO PLACE IN YOUR HOME and that it would be cruel for your wife to think that she could bring her "trophies" and "memories" from her get-a-way with the OM last year into your home for you to have to look at everyday. I, personally, took every single "item" from my own EA/PA and destroyed them before throwing them away.... with the exception of one necklace that I gave to B1 for him to dispose of in the manner that he saw fit. At the time, it wasn't easy for me to do, but it was absolutely essential for me to do that in order to help, both, B1 and myself heal and move forward. As a matter of fact, that whole scenario was detailed on B1's original thread here as it played out. It was Father's Day weekend when I gave him the necklace and we had a huge blow up over it and he told me that if I didn't give him the necklace that I wouldn't be able to go with him and our children to B1's father's house for a cookout. I was very upset, looking back now I can't believe that I had the audacity to think that "I" had a right to be upset while trying to hold onto a memento of the most hurtful thing that I could have ever done to B1. You know that B1 and I have fought hard to get to this place, where we are now, but it didn't happen because B1 was such a "nice guy." It happened because he, in all of his hurt, fear and confusion, found the courage and the strength to place very clear boundaries on what he would and would not tolerate. Today, I am so grateful the he didn't allow me to continue violating him, our family (and myself) while still receiving all of the benefits of being his wife. He really loved me, but he didn't let that cloud his judgement.

I didn't even like typing this post because I know that it is hard for you to hear/read. I, also, think that it may be full of nasty triggers for B1 and possibly others here. But, that is what we do on TAM, and especially on this thread. We share the good, the bad and mundane in order to help one another and ultimately ourselves.

Take care and find your strength and self-respect, bobka, because if you don't respect yourself, then I don't think your wife with respect you either. I know this from experience.

~EI


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## Rookie4

Bobka, I stand corrected. You are absolutely right NEITHER you nor your wife have any blind spots, you both know exactly what you are doing. She is disrespecting you, and quite simply doesn't care enough about you to change. You are so weak that you will let her get away with anything , at all. Do you understand the term "cuckold"? That is what you are. You have given her control over your family and have allowed her to add the OM to it. Do you like sharing your wife? Again, I'm really sorry for being so blunt, but posters are trying really hard to help you but you simply will not listen. I don't know why you are even here on TAM if all you do is complain but do nothing to stand up for yourself. EI's advice is really good. So is Acabado's and others but you ignore this good advice and whine about her actions and praise her "compassion". You have a far different definition of compassion than I do, apparently. Show me where in ANY of this that she has shown you love and respect. I guess I won't comment on your posts anymore, it's a waste of time for both of us, and it triggers bad feelings on my end, so do what you want and good luck to you.


----------



## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> HSE-Bobka
> You maybe different than me but this is a HUGE issue!
> It is so HUGE that I would take a stand.
> 
> 
> FIRST
> As Acabado said I would immediately tell the CHILDEN and the pastor the position that your wife has on this issue.
> 
> 
> SECOND
> I would call the police an tell them that this man is not to be allowed onto your property and that if comes to your house that you are gong to call the police to have him removed.
> 
> THIRD
> I would tell my wife that if she overruled me and allowed him onto the property or she left to go be with him that you will file for a separation agreement.
> 
> 
> FORTH
> I would make a plan so that you have several options for action if she ever disrespects you in this manner again. This is a must even if she backs down and goes along with your plan to keep the OM competely out of both of your lives.
> 
> Bobka
> I will support you either way you go but I see your wife as being very inconsiderate or completely mixed up in the head, or selfish. No matter what is wrong with your wife I encourage you to not allow any disrespect from either the OM or especially your wife.
> 
> *I am sure your wife has some very good points but they are not enough to allow her to disrespect you in such an inconsiderate and selfish way.
> 
> Your wife will love you more when she respects you more.*


This is all good advice, unfortunately Bobka will take none of it.


----------



## Rookie4

I'm really, really, sorry but I believe in helping people who are at least trying to help themselves.


----------



## bfree

bobka,

I'm not angry at you. I'm very sad for you. I am angry at your wife because I do not understand how she can do this to you if she really loves you. It seems that you don't understand that either. I know this is not usually what is recommended here on TAM but what would happen if you told her about this sight and asked her to read our comments? Do you think that would get through to her? DO you think she would understand the pain you are experiencing better if she saw it in writing here? I know this is a safe place for you to vent and talk but do you think it would help if she came here?


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Bobka, no one is mad at you. On the contrary, I think we are all very concerned for you because we care about your well-being. Obviously, it is much easier for "us" to be objective about this because we are on the outside looking in. I know that virtually _everyone_ here has had thoughts such as, "No one understands that my situation is unique, my spouse is different, this advice won't work for me," but those very thoughts are exactly what makes your situation like everyone else's. The facts in each situation may be slightly different, but there are certain things that remain the same for all. No contact is essential. I know that in workplace situations that there are times when that cannot be completely avoided. I know that in this economy that people cannot always just quit their jobs and/or find a new one. Although some would say that a marriage is more important than a job, and I agree, it is hard to work on a marriage if you can't pay the bills so I do sympathize with that. But having minimal work contact and going antiquing are two totally separate animals.
> 
> I told B1 yesterday that you should either inform your wife and/or the OM that he could either throw away the purchased items or ship them to you are your cost. But, then I read CM's comments and realized that those items would be a horrific trigger for you and that they have absolutely NO PLACE IN YOUR HOME and that it would be cruel for your wife to think that she could bring her "trophies" and "memories" from her get-a-way with the OM last year into your home for you to have to look at everyday. I, personally, took every single "item" from my own EA/PA and destroyed them before throwing them away.... with the exception of one necklace that I gave to B1 for him to dispose of in the manner that he saw fit. At the time, it wasn't easy for me to do, but it was absolutely essential for me to do that in order to help, both, B1 and myself heal and move forward. As a matter of fact, that whole scenario was detailed on B1's original thread here as it played out. It was Father's Day weekend when I gave him the necklace and we had a huge blow up over it and he told me that if I didn't give him the necklace that I wouldn't be able to go with him and our children to B1's father's house for a cookout. I was very upset, looking back now I can't believe that I had the audacity to think that "I" had a right to be upset while trying to hold onto a memento of the most hurtful thing that I could have ever done to B1. You know that B1 and I have fought hard to get to this place, where we are now, but it didn't happen because B1 was such a "nice guy." It happened because he, in all of his hurt, fear and confusion, found the courage and the strength to place very clear boundaries on what he would and would not tolerate. Today, I am so grateful the he didn't allow me to continue violating him, our family (and myself) while still receiving all of the benefits of being his wife. He really loved me, but he didn't let that cloud his judgement.
> 
> I didn't even like typing this post because I know that it is hard for you to hear/read. I, also, think that it may be full of nasty triggers for B1 and possibly others here. But, that is what we do on TAM, and especially on this thread. We share the good, the bad and mundane in order to help one another and ultimately ourselves.
> 
> Take care and find your strength and self-respect, bobka, because if you don't respect yourself, then I don't think your wife with respect you either. I know this from experience.
> 
> ~EI


EI, this post hit me really close to home, and was one of the first indications I had that my ex was truly remorseful. She threw away anything that she wore with Brad, clothes , undies, jewelry, etc. She would not go anyplace they went to. He never gave her any gifts except some roses, so she dug up her rose bushes. She asked me to keep her wedding ring, but I told her that our marriage then was ruined , so I told her to throw it away, and made her do it in front of me. It's at the bottom of the Ohio River. I thought she would have a nervous breakdown, and worried that I was too tough on her. I've never seen someone cry so much. But I told her that roses aren't the only flowers, and for Christmas I gave her a new ring with our kids birthstones on it and a new blue diamond center. Before you can grow healthy plants, you have to get rid of the weeds.


----------



## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> bobka,
> 
> I'm not angry at you. I'm very sad for you. I am angry at your wife because I do not understand how she can do this to you if she really loves you. It seems that you don't understand that either. I know this is not usually what is recommended here on TAM but what would happen if you told her about this sight and asked her to read our comments? Do you think that would get through to her? DO you think she would understand the pain you are experiencing better if she saw it in writing here? I know this is a safe place for you to vent and talk but do you think it would help if she came here?


I agree with this, and if you don't want her joining TAM, you could also print out the posts about this for her to read. Something needs to click for her. And you either have to see that it does, or you have to finally come to terms with the fact that she is not serious about you or your marriage. 

I too hesitate to come down on you, because I feel like it just causes you to balk and back away. But we are all very concerned for you and your marriage, and I think we feel like, if you aren't able to protect it, then we need to! It's great that OM is not coming this time, but it still doesn't seem like this issue is resolved, since the reason he is not coming is because your wife realizes how extremely wrong it would be for him to, and how much it would hurt you and your relationship. That HAS to get through to her. 

I'm sorry about this, Bobka. I wish you weren't dealing with it. I wish I was there to slap your wife upside the head and ask her what the hell she is thinking. You're too good to stand by and accept this. Believe that, because all of us know it's true.


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## Rookie4

CM, I feel the same way. I don't want to come down on Bobka, but I feel so strongly about this (perhaps from my own expriences) that I truly WANT him to stand up for himself.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Bobka/HSE - 

I spent quite a bit of time thinking about your situation last night and this morning. You have obviously hit a nerve on here with many of us, for two reasons. 

First off, we genuinely care for you and your happiness/wellbeing. We want to see you be successful in your R, and to achieve great happiness in your life. You have been working hard, are a kind man and clearly deserving of a happy, healthy and rewarding marriage.

Secondly, your wife continuing with this relationship is like rubbing salt in all of our wounds. It is such a raw nerve for many of us, because it is our worst nightmare coming up and staring us in the face. It is absolutely gut-wrenching for us to experience second-hand, so I can only imagine how you are feeling beneath your veneer of calm and kind.

I have decided to share one last bit of advice before trying to focus my thoughts elsewhere. I believe the real issue here is much bigger than the other man still being in your life, coming down for a date etc. The real issue here is your fear. And you must overcome it in order to have the strength that you and your wife will need to save your marriage.

You must conquer your fear of being alone/losing your wife. You need to face the fact that divorce is a real possibility (as it is in any early R efforts). But you need to accept this with the understanding that YOU WILL BE OK, either way. 

You can stand on your own two feet. Despite what you may be thinking, it will not be the end of the world for you or your kids. Divorce happens. People pick up and carry on. Their lives are not forever ruined. You need to be ok with the idea of living your life without her. Until you can accept this, you will be stuck in this limbo that ultimately leads to her leaving you or having another fullblown physical affair.

Your fear of losing your wife will ultimately ensure that you do just that! She needs you to be strong enough to lead her out of the fog, as much as you need to be strong for yourself.

You are stronger than you realize, you have taken a hell of a punch from life and gotten back up. Now dust yourself off, and get back in the ring and fight for what you want. Your marriage needs you, your wife needs you. Be strong!


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## ChangingMe

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> The real issue here is your fear. And you must overcome it in order to have the strength that you and your wife will need to save your marriage.
> 
> You must conquer your fear of being alone/losing your wife. You need to face the fact that divorce is a real possibility (as it is in any early R efforts). But you need to accept this with the understanding that YOU WILL BE OK, either way.
> 
> You can stand on your own two feet. Despite what you may be thinking, it will not be the end of the world for you or your kids. Divorce happens. People pick up and carry on. Their lives are not forever ruined. You need to be ok with the idea of living your life without her. Until you can accept this, you will be stuck in this limbo that ultimately leads to her leaving you or having another fullblown physical affair.
> 
> Your fear of losing your wife will ultimately ensure that you do just that! She needs you to be strong enough to lead her out of the fog, as much as you need to be strong for yourself.
> 
> You are stronger than you realize, you have taken a hell of a punch from life and gotten back up. Now dust yourself off, and get back in the ring and fight for what you want. Your marriage needs you, your wife needs you. Be strong!


I agree 100% with all of this. Please take all this to heart, Bobka. Please.


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## Rags

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Your fear of losing your wife will ultimately ensure that you do just that! She needs you to be strong enough to lead her out of the fog, as much as you need to be strong for yourself.
> 
> You are stronger than you realize, you have taken a hell of a punch from life and gotten back up. Now dust yourself off, and get back in the ring and fight for what you want. Your marriage needs you, your wife needs you. Be strong!


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

This


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## CantSitStill

I totally agree wwith ChangingMe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Today I told her that she may have to make a choice between him and me. She said, "well, I'd never pick him over you!" I said, "I can't have three people in our marriage. Two is enough." She DOESN'T GET IT!

She has agreed to counsel with either her father or our MC. She said, "what if they come down on my side?" I had to try so hard not to roll my eyes. If this weren't so mysteriously fvcked up, it would be laughable!


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## calvin

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Today I told her that she may have to make a choice between him and me. She said, "well, I'd never pick him over you!" I said, "I can't have three people in our marriage. Two is enough." She DOESN'T GET IT!
> 
> She has agreed to counsel with either her father or our MC. She said, "what if they come down on my side?" I had to try so hard not to roll my eyes. If this weren't so mysteriously fvcked up, it would be laughable!


Thats a start bobka,stick to your guns man.
You said you didnt want this to ruin your marriage,
if you keep quiet it will ruin it.
I know this is rough,I went through the same thing with CSS wanting to "date" the loser jailbird.
Stay strong and dont back down.
Give her the choice,you or him and mean it.
I hope your checking up on her to make sure they are not communicating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rags

Good luck with that HSE ... 

.. sounds like you'll need it ...


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## CantSitStill

She might mean it when she says she doesn't want the other guy but what she doesn't know is that under these circumstances she cannot ever speak to him or have any friendships with other males. This is because she already crossed her boundaries and whether she realizes it or not if she is sincere about not wanting him, the more she talks to him it will eventually turn into an EA. He may have ways to sway her and trick her. Trust me she may not know it but neither one of you can trust this guy. Help her by finding things on the internet that explain why she absolutly cannot have any communication with him at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Maybe she thinks she can handle him but she c,an't and some day she will say to you "but I really didn't know it would turn into me having feelings tword him" you do not need to go thru this all over again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Bobka*
> Today I told her that she may have to make a choice between him and me. She said, "well, I'd never pick him over you!" I said, *"I can't have three people in our marriage. Two is enough."* She DOESN'T GET IT!
> 
> She has agreed to counsel with either her father or our MC. She said, "what if they come down on my side?" I had to try so hard not to roll my eyes. If this weren't so mysteriously fvcked up, it would be laughable!



*



"I can't have three people in our marriage. Two is enough."

Click to expand...

**Outstanding Bobka Congratulations my man!!!*



*



"what if they come down on my side?"

Click to expand...

**It does not matter who comes down on her side. Your words were plain and clear and it is either them or you, period!!*


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## cpacan

Well, I haven't got a long post in me at this moment especially not from mobile.

Just wanted to tell you that I am climbing to the top of the fence now. Things went bad last night and I haven't slept all night. Wife defended a selfish position and went directly through the roof, yelling and screaming like a mad person. Today, just ignores me, pretending nothing happened. 

I am really, really at a low point, and am seriously considering pulling the plug now. I can't take much more of this sh!t.

I don't know what to ask, maybe I just needed to let it out.


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## SomedayDig

Bobka/HSE...I know I haven't been around much the past several weeks, but I have followed this thread and your situation. One of the things you said is (summarizing), you can't talk about divorce without ruining the reconciliation point you've gotten to.

What reconciliation point is that?

I was at a little over 5 months on 8/30/12. Regret had told me that I "knew everything" about her 5 year long affair. Well, I could tell that she was holding back so I called her on it and not in a nice way either. I gave her the name and number of an attorney who was in my golf league. Told her I had talked to him and gotten my sh-t in order just in case something like this had happened. You can actually see on that date in this thread where Regret cried out for help. It happened here in real time.

Reconciliation means that you BOTH are committed to working on your marriage. There is no way on Earth that anyone can work on their marriage while still having contact with an AP. It's simple impossible.

Now here's advice that probably no soul on this thread would ever imagine coming from me: Go. Talk to an attorney. Get information on your situation. 

And let her know you're doing so.

I can tell you from my own situation with Regret that the last of the "holding back" stopped that night. The night I told her the next person that she would be talking to was my attorney. I wasn't bluffing either, and she could tell.

And it changed everything.


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## SomedayDig

Dig & Regret UPDATE!!!

Oh, I know...I know...everyone has been wondering "Where the heck are Dig and Regret? We miss them oh, so much!!!" (sarcasm and wit)

Well, we are home after an 11 day excursion from the snowy north to the wonder that is South Florida to visit her parents for Christmas. We drove a total of 3200 miles round trip. WITH two kids in the car!!! We left on 12/20...Apocolypse Day. Pffft...the Mayans had nothing on us that day. We certainly weren't afraid of some end of the world doomsday when we strapped our seatbelts on! 

So much happened on that trip that I can't even tell all of it. What I can say is this: It was liberating. For both of us. We were able to finish talking about a few things. I got the last of my deep anger out...the stuff that I didn't want her to see cuz I didn't want to scare her. Oh - don't worry - we had a separate condo we were staying in, so neither her parents nor our kids were witness to it.

Then, on Christmas Eve, Regret gave me a handwritten letter. Three pages long. She spoke of how sorry she was and how I was the man she had always dreamed of, but lost sight of and lost faith in. She poured her soul into that letter. I felt every word. I broke down and let sooo much pain out. I don't know how long I cried and let go. It seemed like maybe 30 minutes. Regret simply held me and told me she loved me and how sorry she was.

And then, after I had let so much pain and every other emotion that I had inside of me, it happened. I said, "For all of that hurt and pain...for all of the lies and betrayal and stupid sh-t you've done to me over the last five years - I forgive you."

I cannot describe what happened next except to say that Peace flooded my soul. I felt light again.

The forgiveness was not just for Regret. It was for me...for MY healing. It worked.

My in-laws watched the kids that Friday while we were there. Regret and I had a wonderful lunch on the bay near a marina. We were the only ones sitting out there cuz it was a little overcast and a shower was coming. We didn't care as we enjoyed our martinis and appetizer of crap & shrimp spring rolls and cheese platter. Then...as if that wasn't enough, it began to sprinkle. We stayed put. The waitress I'm sure thought we were crazy! And if THAT wasn't enough, as we sat there in the sprinkles, I saw 3 dolphins playing in the marina not 50 yards from us. I pointed it out to Regret and we just laughed. It was perfect.

After we left there, we did some window shopping in the high dollar district. I got a phone call from another realtor at home and negotiated a deal that had been on life support. I won 

Then, we had dinner at an awesome restaurant (oh...that was after Regret changed into her evening outfit at the top of a parking garage!!! :rofl. We found a little bar that we had been to 3 years ago. A Mecca in the middle of the Everglades. It was a perfect night.

We talked. We talked a LOT. We decided that what we need is for us to get out of our house. This house that triggers me so f'ng much cuz I know he was here so many damn times. So, where should we move? The choice was obvious.

Florida.

A new beginning for us. Our family. We are excited beyond belief. The plan is to move the last week of July. 

:smthumbup:


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> Dig & Regret UPDATE!!!
> 
> Oh, I know...I know...everyone has been wondering "Where the heck are Dig and Regret? We miss them oh, so much!!!" (sarcasm and wit)
> 
> Well, we are home after an 11 day excursion from the snowy north to the wonder that is South Florida to visit her parents for Christmas. We drove a total of 3200 miles round trip. WITH two kids in the car!!! We left on 12/20...Apocolypse Day. Pffft...the Mayans had nothing on us that day. We certainly weren't afraid of some end of the world doomsday when we strapped our seatbelts on!
> 
> So much happened on that trip that I can't even tell all of it. What I can say is this: It was liberating. For both of us. We were able to finish talking about a few things. I got the last of my deep anger out...the stuff that I didn't want her to see cuz I didn't want to scare her. Oh - don't worry - we had a separate condo we were staying in, so neither her parents nor our kids were witness to it.
> 
> Then, on Christmas Eve, Regret gave me a handwritten letter. Three pages long. She spoke of how sorry she was and how I was the man she had always dreamed of, but lost sight of and lost faith in. She poured her soul into that letter. I felt every word. I broke down and let sooo much pain out. I don't know how long I cried and let go. It seemed like maybe 30 minutes. Regret simply held me and told me she loved me and how sorry she was.
> 
> And then, after I had let so much pain and every other emotion that I had inside of me, it happened. I said, "For all of that hurt and pain...for all of the lies and betrayal and stupid sh-t you've done to me over the last five years - I forgive you."
> 
> I cannot describe what happened next except to say that Peace flooded my soul. I felt light again.
> 
> The forgiveness was not just for Regret. It was for me...for MY healing. It worked.
> 
> My in-laws watched the kids that Friday while we were there. Regret and I had a wonderful lunch on the bay near a marina. We were the only ones sitting out there cuz it was a little overcast and a shower was coming. We didn't care as we enjoyed our martinis and appetizer of crap & shrimp spring rolls and cheese platter. Then...as if that wasn't enough, it began to sprinkle. We stayed put. The waitress I'm sure thought we were crazy! And if THAT wasn't enough, as we sat there in the sprinkles, I saw 3 dolphins playing in the marina not 50 yards from us. I pointed it out to Regret and we just laughed. It was perfect.
> 
> After we left there, we did some window shopping in the high dollar district. I got a phone call from another realtor at home and negotiated a deal that had been on life support. I won
> 
> Then, we had dinner at an awesome restaurant (oh...that was after Regret changed into her evening outfit at the top of a parking garage!!! :rofl. We found a little bar that we had been to 3 years ago. A Mecca in the middle of the Everglades. It was a perfect night.
> 
> We talked. We talked a LOT. We decided that what we need is for us to get out of our house. This house that triggers me so f'ng much cuz I know he was here so many damn times. So, where should we move? The choice was obvious.
> 
> Florida.
> 
> A new beginning for us. Our family. We are excited beyond belief. The plan is to move the last week of July.
> 
> :smthumbup:


EI and I were wondering about you two, if you were ok etc. I had planned on emailing you this morning and was a little afraid too, You just never know with this stuff.


Dig, this post brought tears to my eyes, really it did. You two really had a wonderful, amazing 2 weeks. GOOD FOR YOU BOTH!

The letter, what a wonderful gift to receive from her Dig. That will be a present you will not soon forget. There is something about reading what someone has to say that really hits home.
There is just something special about it. So glad she did that for you Dig and that it helped you release what you were still hanging on to. My goodness you must feel better!

Forgiving, I couldn't be happier for you. Just remember, I'm sure you know, that this is also a journey. But a better journey than the one you were already on. So glad you were able to take this step.


----------



## B1

cpacan said:


> Well, I haven't got a long post in me at this moment especially not from mobile.
> 
> Just wanted to tell you that I am climbing to the top of the fence now. Things went bad last night and I haven't slept all night. Wife defended a selfish position and went directly through the roof, yelling and screaming like a mad person. Today, just ignores me, pretending nothing happened.
> 
> I am really, really at a low point, and am seriously considering pulling the plug now. I can't take much more of this sh!t.
> 
> I don't know what to ask, maybe I just needed to let it out.


So so sorry cpacan. I can't imagine going through this with a WW who was still defensive. 

Could it be that it drums up such incredibly bad feelings that it angers her? Could it be thinking about it makes her feel disgusted with herself and she just can't handle it?

Perhaps she needs IC to help with this, if this brings out such intense anger something is wrong. 

Again sorry your going through this now


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> Dig & Regret UPDATE!!!
> 
> Oh, I know...I know...everyone has been wondering "Where the heck are Dig and Regret? We miss them oh, so much!!!" (sarcasm and wit)
> 
> Well, we are home after an 11 day excursion from the snowy north to the wonder that is South Florida to visit her parents for Christmas. We drove a total of 3200 miles round trip. WITH two kids in the car!!! We left on 12/20...Apocolypse Day. Pffft...the Mayans had nothing on us that day. We certainly weren't afraid of some end of the world doomsday when we strapped our seatbelts on!
> 
> So much happened on that trip that I can't even tell all of it. What I can say is this: It was liberating. For both of us. We were able to finish talking about a few things. I got the last of my deep anger out...the stuff that I didn't want her to see cuz I didn't want to scare her. Oh - don't worry - we had a separate condo we were staying in, so neither her parents nor our kids were witness to it.
> 
> Then, on Christmas Eve, Regret gave me a handwritten letter. Three pages long. She spoke of how sorry she was and how I was the man she had always dreamed of, but lost sight of and lost faith in. She poured her soul into that letter. I felt every word. I broke down and let sooo much pain out. I don't know how long I cried and let go. It seemed like maybe 30 minutes. Regret simply held me and told me she loved me and how sorry she was.
> 
> And then, after I had let so much pain and every other emotion that I had inside of me, it happened. I said, "For all of that hurt and pain...for all of the lies and betrayal and stupid sh-t you've done to me over the last five years - I forgive you."
> 
> I cannot describe what happened next except to say that Peace flooded my soul. I felt light again.
> 
> The forgiveness was not just for Regret. It was for me...for MY healing. It worked.
> 
> My in-laws watched the kids that Friday while we were there. Regret and I had a wonderful lunch on the bay near a marina. We were the only ones sitting out there cuz it was a little overcast and a shower was coming. We didn't care as we enjoyed our martinis and appetizer of crap & shrimp spring rolls and cheese platter. Then...as if that wasn't enough, it began to sprinkle. We stayed put. The waitress I'm sure thought we were crazy! And if THAT wasn't enough, as we sat there in the sprinkles, I saw 3 dolphins playing in the marina not 50 yards from us. I pointed it out to Regret and we just laughed. It was perfect.
> 
> After we left there, we did some window shopping in the high dollar district. I got a phone call from another realtor at home and negotiated a deal that had been on life support. I won
> 
> Then, we had dinner at an awesome restaurant (oh...that was after Regret changed into her evening outfit at the top of a parking garage!!! :rofl. We found a little bar that we had been to 3 years ago. A Mecca in the middle of the Everglades. It was a perfect night.
> 
> We talked. We talked a LOT. We decided that what we need is for us to get out of our house. This house that triggers me so f'ng much cuz I know he was here so many damn times. So, where should we move? The choice was obvious.
> 
> Florida.
> 
> A new beginning for us. Our family. We are excited beyond belief. The plan is to move the last week of July.
> 
> :smthumbup:


Dig and Regret --- what a great story and very happy to hear how far you both have come.

Wishing you both a belated Happy New Year and sounds like 2013 will be one of the best years for you both.

Take care --- and good luck in your move to Florida.


----------



## old timer

Well, I'm moving out of the house. 

Our in-house separation isn't working out.

Not filing for D at this time, just giving W and I some space. I have accepted that D is a very real possibility, and I am mentally preparing myself for it.

BTW - how would one go about requesting TAM add another category to discussion topics?

Specifically, I'd like to see a category for older folks.

While many aspects may be universal in marriages, infidelities and such, older folks are generally playing with a slightly different deck of cards than most younger people: empty nest (no kids to consider in whether to D or R), menopause/mid life crises, division of assets (retirement accounts, jointly owned property, etc) to name a few.

What is the best way to present this to TAM moderators?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

old timer said:


> Well, I'm moving out of the house.
> 
> Our in-house separation isn't working out.
> 
> Not filing for D at this time, just giving W and I some space. I have accepted that D is a very real possibility, and I am mentally preparing myself for it.
> 
> BTW - how would one go about requesting TAM add another category to discussion topics?
> 
> Specifically, I'd like to see a category for older folks.
> 
> While many aspects may be universal in marriages, infidelities and such, older folks are generally playing with a slightly different deck of cards than most younger people: empty nest (no kids to consider in whether to D or R), menopause/mid life crises, division of assets (retirement accounts, jointly owned property, etc) to name a few.
> 
> What is the best way to present this to TAM moderators?


I'm sorry to hear this, OT. We tried the "in-house" separation, and it worked for us. Well, up to a point. Things are rough again. Every situation is different. 

Although I'd support a section for older folks, I feel that we need the mix of ages here (I'm 56, and this thread is populated by people ranging from their 30s to their 60s) and experiences to best share our feelings, suggestions and solutions. Well, solutions is a strong term. I haven't really seen any "solutions" yet, but you know what I mean. 

If you scroll almost all the way to the bottom of the categories, there's a forum called "Suggestion Box." Write Chris Hartwell there, and you may get a response.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## calvin

Sorry to hear that OT but why do you have to move out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Mmmmmmmmmm, Martinis!! My favorite mixed drink. Very dry with an olive and an onion. As my sweetie says, Scrummy.


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> Mmmmmmmmmm, Martinis!! My favorite mixed drink. Very dry with an olive and an onion. As my sweetie says, Scrummy.


3 bleu cheese stuffed olives here and with Regret's 


Thank you everyone for your support to us. B1, it's funny cuz I was thinking about emailing you to let you know what was going on! LOL Great minds, my man.

Forgiving does NOT equal forgetting. We talked about that in MC this week. We both agree that just because of my forgiveness, that does not mean everything is A okay. To me, it means I've accepted the horrible sh-t she has done and I am willing to move on with her in recovering our marriage.


----------



## old timer

calvin said:


> Sorry to hear that OT but why do you have to move out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I probably don't legally have to. 

I trickle-truthed her over a 3 week period, and she's now wondering what the "confession of the week" will be. She knows it all now, and there will be no further confessions forthcoming, but I cannot blame her for feeling this way

We discussed it yesterday - she's holding in a lot of anger (for the most part, justified), and I can see that my being here antagonizes her. 

Said she "needs some time", and quite honestly, so do I, because we both still harbor doubts that R is what we should really should do. I vacillate day-to-day (sometimes even hour-to-hour) on that in my own mind, and I think she does as well.

Leaves her in the comfort of the home, and doesn't require any hardship on her part, I know. However, I feel that with what I have done in the past, I owe her this much. We can always determine who gets what when/if the divorce comes. I don't see me wanting the house in the event of D anyway, so I need to get accustomed to living without her.

Whatever we ultimately decide, I don't want to rush into a divorce right now. 24 years is a long time.


----------



## calvin

old timer said:


> I probably don't legally have to.
> 
> I trickle-truthed her over a 3 week period, and she's now wondering what the "confession of the week" will be. She knows it all now, and there will be no further confessions forthcoming, but I cannot blame her for feeling this way
> 
> We discussed it yesterday - she's holding in a lot of anger (for the most part, justified), and I can see that my being here antagonizes her.
> 
> Said she "needs some time", and quite honestly, so do I, because we both still harbor doubts that R is what we should really should do. I vacillate day-to-day (sometimes even hour-to-hour) on that in my own mind, and I think she does as well.
> 
> Leaves her in the comfort of the home, and doesn't require any hardship on her part, I know. However, I feel that with what I have done in the past, I owe her this much. We can always determine who gets what when/if the divorce comes. I don't see me wanting the house in the event of D anyway, so I need to get accustomed to living without her.
> 
> Whatever we ultimately decide, I don't want to rush into a divorce right now. 24 years is a long time.


Youre another WS who has seemed to learn from the terrible choices you made.
I dont blame her for wanting you out but I hope she can see that you know how bad you fvcked up and how you are taking all the steps to fix it all.
Is there a chance she might come on here?
Seeing all the other WS's pain does have an effect on me,though I believe the BS's pain is worse,I know that the true remorseful WS also feels pain too.
If I did it,I'd want that chance to prove myself,as a BS,its the least I can do.
Some outside influences have told me to cut and run and I almost have sometimes but I dont think it would be right.
Praying for you now too OT,God that list is getting long but it good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Here's what I've been Googling today:

"Divorce with massive debt"

"Divorce and bankruptcy"

"Divorce attorneys in (my town)"

Here's the deal - I know that my wife will not go as far as divorce. I know that she will back down when I bring this up. 

I just need to get her to the point where she realizes that carrying on a relationship on any level is wrong. And I know she's read it in the Shirley Glass book. I know she understands the words.

She's GOT to see that this is hurting me. I know she does understand this. Why does she continue to argue that it's okay to remain friends with this guy? 

Has anybody seen any parallel to this in their experience?


----------



## calvin

CSS would tell me a month later that the POS was a nice guy,she still believed in what he said was true,I did an internet search on peoplesmart.com,I had to pay for it but it pulled uop a bunch of crap on him for her to see.
I also got in contact with POS friends and debunked a lot of his "trueths",I exposed all around,I searched out the woman he new and sent them letters and text,I called his work.
CSS saw an attorney,talked to another.
I got serious and took the money out of the bank,cancled credit cards.
I showed her I was serious after I kicked her out bobka.
All this made her think,she could have the POS and I showed her I was moving on.
You cant shake them awake,they need an Earthquake to see what the hell is going on.
Be relentless,show her the future without you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Yes, Bobka, I have to agree with Calvin. Maybe she doesn't get it because she hasn't seen what the actual consequences will be. I honestly cannot even fathom wanting to have anything to do with xOM. All he represents now is pain and damage and stupidity. We both thought he was a funny, nice guy at one point, but that is gone. He brought my THISCLOSE to losing the most important things in my life: my husband and family. He is now across the country, and I would have him even further away if possible. 

But I don't know if I would have gotten there so immediately if DD hadn't kicked me out of the house on DDay. He also pulled all our money out of checking and savings and put it into his business account that I don't have access to, he locked me out of FB and email, changed the garage code so I couldn't get in, and very much let me know that he meant business. I'm sitting here thinking back on that time, and my heart is racing. I can still remember how that felt to have my whole world turn dark. It quickly made me realize that my brief times with xOM were meaningless, and how my life became nothing when DD went dark on me. Everything I had spent the last 12 years building could be pulled from me, and I realized that it was the last thing I wanted. I didn't want some stupid fling with someone that I hadn't known very long. I wanted my best friend, my husband, the person who had known me and stood by me longer than anyone. I wanted my family intact, my kids to not be crying for either one of us, and the life that we had built together to seem stable again.

I think looking up attorneys is a good thing. Sometimes us stupid waywards need a figurative slap in the face to make us realize what we've done. I hope this does it for your wife.


----------



## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Here's what I've been Googling today:
> 
> "Divorce with massive debt"
> 
> "Divorce and bankruptcy"
> 
> "Divorce attorneys in (my town)"
> 
> Here's the deal - I know that my wife will not go as far as divorce. I know that she will back down when I bring this up.
> 
> I just need to get her to the point where she realizes that carrying on a relationship on any level is wrong. And I know she's read it in the Shirley Glass book. I know she understands the words.
> 
> She's GOT to see that this is hurting me. I know she does understand this. Why does she continue to argue that it's okay to remain friends with this guy?
> 
> Has anybody seen any parallel to this in their experience?


Bobka,

I know this has been said before but you don't want to hear it. Your wife is an alcoholic asking why she can't have a glass of wine or a beer once in a while. Because she can't! She is still in a relationship with her friend. You have never imposed a forced hiatus long enough for her to purge those feelings from her mind. It takes 6 months to 1 year for her to detach from her friend. As long as she remains in contact she will continue to have that affair drug pumped into her veins. I know you are trying to be nice and understanding but if she were pointing a gun to her head would you try to calmly talk her out of pulling the trigger or would you tackle her and take the gun away from her? The reason your wife does not see why this hurts you is because she is on drugs. Her mind is clouded by the affair drug and as long as she remains in contact with her friend you will never see her showing you any empathy. You aren't #1 in her mind because you refuse to step up and put yourself in her field of vision.


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> Yes, Bobka, I have to agree with Calvin. Maybe she doesn't get it because she hasn't seen what the actual consequences will be. I honestly cannot even fathom wanting to have anything to do with xOM. All he represents now is pain and damage and stupidity. We both thought he was a funny, nice guy at one point, but that is gone. He brought my THISCLOSE to losing the most important things in my life: my husband and family. He is now across the country, and I would have him even further away if possible.
> 
> But I don't know if I would have gotten there so immediately if DD hadn't kicked me out of the house on DDay. He also pulled all our money out of checking and savings and put it into his business account that I don't have access to, he locked me out of FB and email, changed the garage code so I couldn't get in, and very much let me know that he meant business. I'm sitting here thinking back on that time, and my heart is racing. I can still remember how that felt to have my whole world turn dark. It quickly made me realize that my brief times with xOM were meaningless, and how my life became nothing when DD went dark on me. Everything I had spent the last 12 years building could be pulled from me, and I realized that it was the last thing I wanted. I didn't want some stupid fling with someone that I hadn't known very long. I wanted my best friend, my husband, the person who had known me and stood by me longer than anyone. I wanted my family intact, my kids to not be crying for either one of us, and the life that we had built together to seem stable again.
> 
> I think looking up attorneys is a good thing. Sometimes us stupid waywards need a figurative slap in the face to make us realize what we've done. I hope this does it for your wife.


Amen to that, Calvin did pretty much the same, he even had my cell phone shut off after he kicked me out, he landed up putting it back on because of the kids and we had no other means to communicate, he took all the money out of our account, took
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

ran outa room lol..anyway he took me off the credit cards threatened to change the locks but I knew the police would have to let me in..but still I came home one morning to get the kids off to school and I did not feel comfortable in my own home..it was awful and worse the kids ignored me. They hid in their rooms, it was awful. I left back to my sisters asap because I didn't feel like this was my home. uggg horrible memories but...hey he saved me by his actions. I'm glad he did all that and woke me up 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Crap I don't know but I believe he took me off his retirement. When I called them they insisted they can only talk to him. I think he did and forgot to put me back on. I know he took me off his life insurance and he had a lawyer. Yes he lost some money. I'm so sorry, I wrecked things financially, emotionally..totally messed him up. I was a horrible selfish person. who refused to even listen uggggg! Hate thinking about all this. Need to get cleanin house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Hey Dig



> *crap & shrimp spring rolls and cheese platter. *


Your post was great and I am happy for your family.

Please give us the name of the restaurant so we can all stay clear. Especially with the type of dishes they are serving.
:lol:

Crappy crab anyone???


----------



## bfree

CSS,

calvin manned up and you love him for it. You then womanned up and calvin loves you for it. That's just how it goes. Love is standing up for each other even when the other person doesn't want it or appreciate it. That's a type of sacrifice that people don't often think of but it often turns out the be the most important.


----------



## calvin

Fvch,I'm in the garage taking a break from working on my truck.
What CM,CSS and bfree just wrote is making me fvcking cry.
Glad I'm in the garage where no one and see me or hear me...aw crap
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

It's weird, because I think I've blocked a lot of stuff out that happened right after DDay. I had forgotten about the bank accounts till I posted about it -and he actually moved the money twice. He returned most of it a week or so after DDay, then about a month later, he got furious again, and took all but a couple hundred bucks. (We have a joint account, BTW, so he was taking my pay as well as his when he did this.) 

The second time he did it was an awful, awful time. The next morning, I woke up to find that he had changed my relationship status on FB to separated, moved my city to the town my parents are in, put all this stuff in my 'info' section stating I was looking for men, etc. Within an hour, his grandmother (who did not know about the A) was messaging me asking what was going on. That day, I emailed him about having the children for the weekend, and he refused. That was probably my worst day. I was a zombie. I remember saying to my mother, "I literally don't know what to do." She had to tell me, "You need to go take a shower. I will make you some breakfast, and you have to eat it. Then you will dry your hair and go to work." I literally needed step-by-step directions to get through that day. At work, I looked up lawyers for the first time, because I was going to have do something if he would not let me see my children. He contacted me later that day and let me come get them, thankfully. But that might have been my worst day. 

When I think on it, I can remember vividly how bad that felt. And all it makes me think today is, If it was that horrible for me, my God, what was DD feeling like at that time? It's making me cry. 

. . . 

Ok, enough reminiscing. I have been cleaning up the yard while DD gets to gallivant around the skies. Now I need to clean myself up, since DD got us a babysitter so we can both go out with his friend tonight. 

Thank God that today is a better day, and that even though DD and I have our set backs, they aren't near as frequent and don't last near as long as they did months ago. And he hasn't messed with my FB or taken money from our account in months, so that's nice too! Each day is a new day, and I am thankful for that.


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Fvch,I'm in the garage taking a break from working on my truck.
> What CM,CSS and bfree just wrote is making me fvcking cry.
> Glad I'm in the garage where no one and see me or hear me...aw crap
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quit your bawlin and get back to work on that truck. You expect it to fix itself? That's about what my Dad would have said, Calvin.


----------



## CantSitStill

oH my I forgot, he posted on his fb That after 6wks of marriage counselling I left him for another man..that was the worst! I to this day have no idea how many people saw that because he did finally remove it. My son posted on my fb wall "mom why are you doing this to us?" crap! I deleted it..now I'm gonna cry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Quit your bawlin and get back to work on that truck. You expect it to fix itself? That's about what my Dad would have said, Calvin.


Oh yeah,my Dad would have said that and much more Rookie,he still does.
Aint no use in complaining when you got a job to do.
Trucks good.Time for them chicken pies.
I make the best,many have ask how I make it.
I'll never give it up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

happyman64 said:


> Hey Dig
> 
> 
> 
> Your post was great and I am happy for your family.
> 
> Please give us the name of the restaurant so we can all stay clear. Especially with the type of dishes they are serving.
> :lol:
> 
> Crappy crab anyone???


Oh my... LMAO!!! Yeah... CRAB was served! 

Seriously laughing my ass off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Btw Dig, I am so very happy for you and getting out of that house is a great idea for you two. Glad you both got all those feelings out. This stuff sucks but if you both don't give up you do have a chance of happiness 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> We didn't care as we enjoyed our martinis and appetizer of* crap & shrimp spring rolls and cheese platter.*


Is that the same as a poo-poo platter? 



happyman64 said:


> Hey Dig
> 
> 
> 
> Your post was great and I am happy for your family.
> 
> Please give us the name of the restaurant so we can all stay clear. Especially with the type of dishes they are serving.
> :lol:
> 
> Crappy crab anyone???


I pointed this out to B1 as soon as I read it (it's the editor in me) and have burst out laughing, sporadically, throughout the day. I wanted to comment about it, but after reading Dig's lovely and heartfelt post I couldn't bring myself to do it, which is highly unusual for me because I am, usually, quite the sarcastic "B!" But, having become the remorseful former WS, I have become a little more humble and soft spoken these days.  Right? I have.... haven't I? 

Geeeeeez, I hope you guys can appreciate my sense of humor.... I try to contain myself but sometimes the devil just slips out. 

Okay, okay, just shoot me..... or send me a pm if I get out of line!


----------



## EI

old timer said:


> Well, I'm moving out of the house.
> 
> Our in-house separation isn't working out.
> 
> Not filing for D at this time, just giving W and I some space. I have accepted that D is a very real possibility, and I am mentally preparing myself for it.
> 
> BTW - how would one go about requesting TAM add another category to discussion topics?
> 
> Specifically, I'd like to see a category for older folks.
> 
> While many aspects may be universal in marriages, infidelities and such, older folks are generally playing with a slightly different deck of cards than most younger people: empty nest (no kids to consider in whether to D or R), menopause/mid life crises, division of assets (retirement accounts, jointly owned property, etc) to name a few.
> 
> What is the best way to present this to TAM moderators?


old timer,

I don't really know what to say other than I'm sorry that things aren't going well. You know that we will all be here to support you in whatever decisions you and your wife ultimately make.

Being in reconciliation isn't a requirement for posting on this thread.... just being human. Please keep us updated so that we can help you through it in any way that we can.



~EI


----------



## CantSitStill

EI said:


> Is that the same as a poo-poo platter?
> 
> 
> 
> I pointed this out to B1 as soon as I read it (it's the editor in me) and have burst out laughing, sporadically, throughout the day. I wanted to comment about it, but after reading Dig's lovely and heartfelt post I couldn't bring myself to do it, which is highly unusual for me because I am, usually, quite the sarcastic "B!" But, having become the remorseful former WS, I have become a little more humble and soft spoken these days.
> 
> Geeeeeez, I hope you guys can appreciate my sense of humor.... I try to contain myself but sometimes the devil just slips out.
> 
> Okay, okay, just shoot me..... or send me a pm if I get out of line!


lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Today I told her that she may have to make a choice between him and me. She said, "well, I'd never pick him over you!" I said, "I can't have three people in our marriage. Two is enough." She DOESN'T GET IT!
> 
> She has agreed to counsel with either her father or our MC. *She said, "what if they come down on my side?"* I had to try so hard not to roll my eyes. If this weren't so mysteriously fvcked up, it would be laughable!



I just re-read this and the one thing that really stands out is that she is looking at this as *"her side vs. your side." * "Her side" of the argument is that she should be able to spend recreational time with her former EA partner knowing full well that it is extremely hurtful to you and that you have clearly expressed your 100% justifiable need for her to cut off all non-work related contact with him. "Your side" of the argument is that she discontinues having an EA while attempting to pretend that it's acceptable as long as she is transparent about it. You may not have used those words.... but that describes the situation none-the-less. What it all comes down to is that it's *"your wife and the xOM vs. you." * That's the crux of the problem.....


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> Well, I haven't got a long post in me at this moment especially not from mobile.
> 
> Just wanted to tell you that I am climbing to the top of the fence now. Things went bad last night and I haven't slept all night. Wife defended a selfish position and went directly through the roof, yelling and screaming like a mad person. Today, just ignores me, pretending nothing happened.
> 
> I am really, really at a low point, and am seriously considering pulling the plug now. I can't take much more of this sh!t.
> 
> I don't know what to ask, maybe I just needed to let it out.


I am so sorry, cpacan. Something is going to have to give and it doesn't appear that it is going to be your wife. You are going to have to decide if this is going to be enough for you moving forward. I struggle to understand her logic. Again, I am just so sorry.  

I was hoping that things would turn out differently for you.


----------



## old timer

EI said:


> old timer,
> 
> I don't really know what to say other than I'm sorry that things aren't going well. You know that we will all be here to support you in whatever decisions you and your wife ultimately make.
> 
> Being in reconciliation isn't a requirement for posting on this thread.... just being human. Please keep us updated so that we can help you through it in any way that we can.
> 
> 
> 
> ~EI


Welp, I was in a one-sided R attempt, so we all know that will never work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin told me the night I told him about the OM that I have a choice: get rid of him from your phone and stop talking to him immediatly or leave. I refused to stop contact with the OM and left our home within 2 min. I ran out the door with nothing. Not proud of myself at all I was addicted to talking to him..stupidest decision I ever made in my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin told me the night I told him about the OM that I have a choice: get rid of him from your phone and stop talking to him immediatly or leave. I refused to stop contact with the OM and left our home within 2 min. I ran out the door with nothing. Not proud of myself at all I was addicted to talking to him..stupidest decision I ever made in my life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had to be tough and rough.
No holds bard but I also had to do everything I could to win you back.
Some of my tactics were hardcore,other plans were filled with love.
I had to try and find that balance.It was hard and it hurt me but I also knew that you were in a death spiral.I loved you and I felt you were going to self destruct.
I had ,I hade too do something,it wasnt easy.
You would have got huet....oh god,you woulld have ...oh fvck
Sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

sorry,little emotional. sometimes.
Going to bed with CSS.
Best place to be
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin, everything you did was filled with love. And make no mistake CSS knows that.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> calvin, everything you did was filled with love. And make no mistake CSS knows that.


Thanks,yooure right,i cant see right now.
cant breath.
going to bed with CSs
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Oh yeah,my Dad would have said that and much more Rookie,he still does.
> Aint no use in complaining when you got a job to do.
> Trucks good.Time for them chicken pies.
> I make the best,many have ask how I make it.
> I'll never give it up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Chicken pies as in pot pies? I love homemade pot pies, and have been known to steal them from kitchens.


----------



## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> oH my I forgot, he posted on his fb That after 6wks of marriage counselling I left him for another man..that was the worst! I to this day have no idea how many people saw that because he did finally remove it. My son posted on my fb wall "mom why are you doing this to us?" crap! I deleted it..now I'm gonna cry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK, CSS, you too, quitcher boohooin and get out to that garage and help Calvin with the truck. Geez, do I have to do everything around here? Sum*****.


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Oh my... LMAO!!! Yeah... CRAB was served!
> 
> Seriously laughing my ass off.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shellfish gives me the cobbles, and cheese would stop up my plumbing, so I would be f**ked either way. Thank God for the Martinis.


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> Welp, I was in a one-sided R attempt, so we all know that will never work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OT, forget about getting a special section for you old farts, why should you be treated any better than the rest of us peons? . BTW, you may be old, but you're not dead, go out and find a better woman and get nekid.


----------



## B1

Old timer, so sorry your moving out and that R is not working out for you right now.
This has to be tough on both of you.
At the same time, this may be just what you both need. Hopefully, you will both find that life is better with each other than without.

Do keep us posted, it's not over until it's over.


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> Dig & Regret UPDATE!!!
> 
> Oh, I know...I know...everyone has been wondering "Where the heck are Dig and Regret? We miss them oh, so much!!!" (sarcasm and wit)
> 
> Well, we are home after an 11 day excursion from the snowy north to the wonder that is South Florida to visit her parents for Christmas. We drove a total of 3200 miles round trip. WITH two kids in the car!!! We left on 12/20...Apocolypse Day. Pffft...the Mayans had nothing on us that day. We certainly weren't afraid of some end of the world doomsday when we strapped our seatbelts on!
> 
> So much happened on that trip that I can't even tell all of it. What I can say is this: It was liberating. For both of us. We were able to finish talking about a few things. I got the last of my deep anger out...the stuff that I didn't want her to see cuz I didn't want to scare her. Oh - don't worry - we had a separate condo we were staying in, so neither her parents nor our kids were witness to it.
> 
> Then, on Christmas Eve, Regret gave me a handwritten letter. Three pages long. She spoke of how sorry she was and how I was the man she had always dreamed of, but lost sight of and lost faith in. She poured her soul into that letter. I felt every word. I broke down and let sooo much pain out. I don't know how long I cried and let go. It seemed like maybe 30 minutes. Regret simply held me and told me she loved me and how sorry she was.
> 
> And then, after I had let so much pain and every other emotion that I had inside of me, it happened. I said, "For all of that hurt and pain...for all of the lies and betrayal and stupid sh-t you've done to me over the last five years - I forgive you."
> 
> I cannot describe what happened next except to say that Peace flooded my soul. I felt light again.
> 
> The forgiveness was not just for Regret. It was for me...for MY healing. It worked.
> 
> My in-laws watched the kids that Friday while we were there. Regret and I had a wonderful lunch on the bay near a marina. We were the only ones sitting out there cuz it was a little overcast and a shower was coming. We didn't care as we enjoyed our martinis and appetizer of crap & shrimp spring rolls and cheese platter. Then...as if that wasn't enough, it began to sprinkle. We stayed put. The waitress I'm sure thought we were crazy! And if THAT wasn't enough, as we sat there in the sprinkles, I saw 3 dolphins playing in the marina not 50 yards from us. I pointed it out to Regret and we just laughed. It was perfect.
> 
> After we left there, we did some window shopping in the high dollar district. I got a phone call from another realtor at home and negotiated a deal that had been on life support. I won
> 
> Then, we had dinner at an awesome restaurant (oh...that was after Regret changed into her evening outfit at the top of a parking garage!!! :rofl. We found a little bar that we had been to 3 years ago. A Mecca in the middle of the Everglades. It was a perfect night.
> 
> We talked. We talked a LOT. We decided that what we need is for us to get out of our house. This house that triggers me so f'ng much cuz I know he was here so many damn times. So, where should we move? The choice was obvious.
> 
> Florida.
> 
> A new beginning for us. Our family. We are excited beyond belief. The plan is to move the last week of July.
> 
> :smthumbup:


Dig. IMO any marriage that can withstand a 3200mi trip in a car with kids is a strong one.  I hope you enjoy Florida.


----------



## ChangingMe

Just wanted to comment on a few of your posts. 

Cpacan, I am sorry you are at a low point. I am sorry your wife continues to not handle herself like she should. How are you doing today? I hope it is a better day for you, but ultimately, I hope you can be at peace with what you decide to do. I hope she will seek help and work on herself. 

Oldtimer, I am sorry that you and your wife feel it's best to separate at this point. You sound like you are accepting of it, so maybe it really can be a good time for you both to clear your heads and figure out what is best for the relationship. I hope so. Also, I for one appreciate having people in different parts of life posting on here. Infidelity hits everywhere on the timeline of people's lives, so we are all in different places. DD and I are mid-thirties with young kids, but that doesn't mean we can't gain wisdom or (hopefully) provide some insight to people of other ages. I get wanting your own space on TAM though, so maybe posting in that Suggestion thread would be the way to go about it.

Dig, your post was awesome! I am so happy for you and Regret. The trip sounded wonderful, and the time spent together sounded even better. I am so glad you have been able to forgive, and that she has proved herself to you. I am also excited about your plans to move. I think a fresh start sounds amazing. 

Calvin and CSS, I'm glad your weekend seems to be going well. And, though I am not usually a big fan of chicken pot pies, you actually got me craving them last night. I think the trip you guys have coming up sounds amazing -I hope it is a great time of reconnection for you both. 

As for DD and me, the last couple of days have been good. He is taking me flying with him today, which is really exciting -just the fact that he wants me to join him in his "happy place" is a huge deal for me. A couple days ago, he didn't want me in our house, so, it may sound silly, but I feel honored that he has invited me along for the flight. My folks are keeping the kids for the afternoon/evening, so we get some time together. 

Thinking and praying for the rest of you on here as well. I hope you are all having a good weekend.


----------



## pidge70

That is great news CM! Have fun today!


----------



## ChangingMe

pidge70 said:


> That is great news CM! Have fun today!


Thanks! The flight was great! DD did awesome. It was so amazing watching him fly. I want to go again!!!!


----------



## joe kidd

ChangingMe said:


> Thanks! The flight was great! DD did awesome. It was so amazing watching him fly. I want to go again!!!!


I can't get pidge to get on a motorcycle with me let alone in a plane.


----------



## B1

EI and I are still doing well. Some of my hurt has resurfaced a little but handling it is very different now. I no longer want EI to hurt also, I no longer want her to feel my hurt too. I would rather just hurt for a small amount of time and be done with it. I can't explain it, but it's just different in a good way. 

I have found I am VERY sensitive to TV shows where there is sex involved in any way. A couple meeting for the first time, kissing for the first time, having sex for the first time hurts me. I generally can't handle it at all and have to change channels. What I am doing is placing EI and the xOM in the roles of the characters on TV. So, what the woman says on TV is what I hear EI saying to the xOM..strange I know, but it's what I am currently doing. And infidelity on TV...whoa..that's BAD NEWS and a no go!

I am also going to work on a hurt list, listing all my hurts and going over them with EI then destroying them. This is something our counselor recommended long ago but I never did. I am ready to do this now. I am more afraid for EI than myself, this will be very hard on her I think. It's very graphic and detailed.

There are a couple things though I would like to cover, some final things to say then lay them to rest. I have worked on this list for a day or two now, and I almost deleted it yesterday because I didn't want to bring this up now that we are doing so much better. I am still somewhat unsure...
She has been so happy lately and I don't want that to change, ever. And I have had peace like never before. So, as you can see I am a little concerned about doing this now. EI is aware I am working on this list and wants to do this, she wants to get this hurt out there, she's ok with it. So, I guess we will go over it soon.

Tonight though is dinner at the Hard Rock with EI and family, really looking forward to that. 

Wishing everyone a good Monday and week.


----------



## bfree

joe kidd said:


> I can't get pidge to get on a motorcycle with me let alone in a plane.


Did you tell her how.....ahem.....thrilling the vibrations are?


----------



## bfree

betrayed1 said:


> EI and I are still doing well. Some of my hurt has resurfaced a little but handling it is very different now. I no longer want EI to hurt also, I no longer want her to feel my hurt too. I would rather just hurt for a small amount of time and be done with it. I can't explain it, but it's just different in a good way.
> 
> I have found I am VERY sensitive to TV shows where there is sex involved in any way. A couple meeting for the first time, kissing for the first time, having sex for the first time hurts me. I generally can't handle it at all and have to change channels. What I am doing is placing EI and the xOM in the roles of the characters on TV. So, what the woman says on TV is what I hear EI saying to the xOM..strange I know, but it's what I am currently doing. And infidelity on TV...whoa..that's BAD NEWS and a no go!
> 
> I am also going to work on a hurt list, listing all my hurts and going over them with EI then destroying them. This is something our counselor recommended long ago but I never did. I am ready to do this now. I am more afraid for EI than myself, this will be very hard on her I think. It's very graphic and detailed.
> 
> There are a couple things though I would like to cover, some final things to say then lay them to rest. I have worked on this list for a day or two now, and I almost deleted it yesterday because I didn't want to bring this up now that we are doing so much better. I am still somewhat unsure...
> She has been so happy lately and I don't want that to change, ever. And I have had peace like never before. So, as you can see I am a little concerned about doing this now. EI is aware I am working on this list and wants to do this, she wants to get this hurt out there, she's ok with it. So, I guess we will go over it soon.
> 
> Tonight though is dinner at the Hard Rock with EI and family, really looking forward to that.
> 
> Wishing everyone a good Monday and week.


Its funny you mention a list of hurts. I did something like this in a much less formal way with my wife in regards to my ex wife. I felt a little guilty about putting this on her considering she wasn't even the one that caused my hurts. But we did it anyway because I need to voice it. When we were done I felt much better and several days later my wife told me that she understood me much better since we talked about it and felt so much closer to me as well. I know this will probably bother EI but it will help you a lot and maybe if she sees this as a positive step in letting go of old wounds she will feel closer to you after this is done.


----------



## calvin

Yeah B1,I cant watch any movie of show that has infidelity in it.Just too much for me to handle.
Me and CSS have been getting along pretty good lately,a few things have happend that were very 
positive for us.
The grip I had is getting looser everyday.
Thank God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin is really feeling more at peace now. He had a few reasons the past couple days to totally trigger him out and he dealt so well and seems happier. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin is really feeling more at peace now. He had a few reasons the past couple days to totally trigger him out and he dealt so well and seems happier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thats cause I am,love you honey
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

B1, it shall pass, the TV thing. Now I can watch any kind of movie, TV show, read novels... even it includes infidelity.
On the other hand my wife can't. Idealization, romanticization, glorification, normalization of indifelity makes her physsically change and even puke.


----------



## Rookie4

Considering that I don't watch much TV except sports or documentaries, I don't see many things that would trigger me, but I can understand how such programs would .


----------



## jh52

B1 --- glad you and and EI are doing better. Just remember this is a long process, journey that you are both on --- it's a marathon and not a sprint --- keep looking forward -- that rear view mirror is gone --- it will all get better with time. Each couple is different so dont beat yourself up -- you both have come a long way.

Just treat each other with respect, communicate, communicate, communicate --- and love each other to death.

Take care ---and say hey to EI.


----------



## joe kidd

In a funk....can't seem to shake it.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> In a funk....can't seem to shake it.


Sorry to hear that man,Pidge loves you dude and your a good man.
Ride it out,it will go away.
Give it a little time joe,remember..youre in man.
It sucks but it will pass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

joe kidd said:


> In a funk....can't seem to shake it.


Hang in there. It will pass. You can deal. Pour it out on here if you need to. We're here.


----------



## Rookie4

Try a couple of Somedaydig's martinis, it will cure what ails you.


----------



## B1

yeah Joe, let it out here if it will help. We all have bad days, weeks etc. Don't let it get to you, like others have said it will pass. If not please share it here if you want so you can get some feedback and help.
You don't have to be in this funk alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Try a couple of Somedaydig's martinis, it will cure what ails you.



Yeah, but skip Dig's appetizers...... I don't think they sounded very good at all!!! LOL


----------



## Rookie4

betrayed1 said:


> yeah Joe, let it out here if it will help. We all have bad days, weeks etc. Don't let it get to you, like others have said it will pass. If not please share it here if you want so you can get some feedback and help.
> You don't have to be in this funk alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, Joe, B1"s right, you will have spells of funky crap between spells of happy times, that's why they call it the "rollercoaster". I was really happy on New Years, but something on my thread reminded me of some really tragic times from my past. and my good mood was gone. So now I've got to try to shake it. My sweetie is helping lots, but this stuff was way before her time and involved someone else, so it feels like I'm alone, which is exactly why we are here, right. To feel a part of something and to share our experiences and ups and downs with others who have been there. Sometimes our tragedys get us down, and it can be really hard to see the positives.


----------



## margrace

calvin said:


> Thats cause I am,love you honey
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


this little exchange -- calvin and css -- made my day


----------



## margrace

Rookie4 said:


> Yeah, Joe, B1"s right, you will have spells of funky crap between spells of happy times, that's why they call it the "rollercoaster". I was really happy on New Years, but something on my thread reminded me of some really tragic times from my past. and my good mood was gone. So now I've got to try to shake it...


joe and rookie and b1, you know i'm there with you in those ups and downs. i'm also one of those that gets triggered by the random mentions of infidelity on tv.... gosh i'm longing to get to the other side of this 

things still look positive here, as i was describing to you a few days ago. MC in progress and H sounding more and more as though he is finally really on board with R.

he's seeing lots of things more clearly every day -- and he brings them up in conversation. i think i believe that he is working hard every day. i am grateful for this progress. but you know what i still need? that completely honest conversation (or 2 or 3 or whatever) that releases me from the web of lies. i'm not even talking about _detail_ details -- i'm don't so much need that. i'm talking about all the basic parameters like who, what, where, when, etc. 

H has acknowledged that he knows that we must go down this path. i know what a nightmare this part of the process will be for him. 

the WSs on this thread have helped me understand how painful complete transparency about the A is/was for them, even when they really want R and love their partners. plus here are some other particulars of my situation: 1) my WS is not as aware/articulate about feelings as you all are, and 2) my WS is a man 

#2 seems so obvious! but i've recently begun to think more about it. some things are still exactly the same, i think, regardless of gender... but still some things are going to be a little different. like, lots of men get raised with SUCH strong messages to NOT go to that apologetic, "weak" place (although we know that it actually is an incredibly strong and courageous place!) ... and i see this stuff kicking in with him.

it's going to have to happen. but this whole thing has seemed to go better when i haven't been working overtime trying to fix it and save it and steer it. so i am going to try to practice patience for a while longer, as long as i see his effort and progress... even though it means that i am still standing closer to the door than i would like


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Margrace
> :…this whole thing has seemed to go better when i haven't been working overtime trying to fix it and save it and steer it. so i am going to try to practice patience for a while longer


Smart lady!
Keep working on YOU! Build yourself up so that you know 100% that you are a good person and are worth loving. I hope that you and your husband make it but remember you will always live with your self image.


----------



## ChangingMe

Margrace, have you thought about having him write out a timeline? I feel like things might be easier for him (and perhaps even you) if he could write things out instead of just saying them to your face. 

Right after joining TAM, people recommended I write DD a timeline of my A. I did, weeping at my desk while I wrote the whole thing out -starting with the very basic "Happy birthday" FB message I got last September and ending with DDay2 on June 19. Writing it down gave me a chance to really think through when things occurred and progressed, while trying to talk through it, I think I would have been more likely to forget something and have to go back to it, which could have looked like more trickle truth. 

It also might help if you wrote out questions you have and let him answer in writing. It might take some pressure off him from having to stare at you while he tells you painful details. I know I have mentioned it before, but writing things out has been a great way for DD and I to communicate when he is not comfortable talking in person. 

Hang in there, margrace!


----------



## calvin

Hang tight CM,he will start letting go of it all,it has taken me awhile,I kept my guard up a lot.
I didnt want to get hurt again but everyday I let go a little more,I'm still holding on a little but it doesnt do me any good.
It feels good too put it in her hands.
No reason I shouldnt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> Hang tight CM,he will start letting go of it all,it has taken me awhile,I kept my guard up a lot.
> I didnt want to get hurt again but everyday I let go a little more,I'm still holding on a little but it doesnt do me any good.
> It feels good too put it in her hands.
> No reason I shouldnt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, Calvin. I'm so happy for you and CSS. The past few days have been a nice calm to the storm for DD and me. He has held me the last couple of nights, and I love that more than anything.


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> Thank you, Calvin. I'm so happy for you and CSS. The past few days have been a nice calm to the storm for DD and me. He has held me the last couple of nights, and I love that more than anything.


Thats great to hear,you're chipping away at him.
I have no reason not to trust CSS anymore.
I needed time to heal,I've had enough.
I can be happy again or I can be miserable.
Comes a time where I have to truely forgive.
I wish you both the best,I know DD wont be sorry he took this chance on you.
Youre one of the ones that really does "get it".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I just wanna add we went thru alot of hell right before Calvin's gotten to this place of forgiving and trusting. Shoot you've seen how bad from reading our thread. It hurts and makes you a nervous wreck on the inside. Always pm me when he's triggering. I know it helps having you and EI here to talk to me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

joe kidd said:


> Feeling better.


Glad to hear it Joe. Say hey to Pidge.


----------



## calvin

Joe and Pidge got this or they still would not be working at it as hard as they are.
I see all the couples on this thread giving it their all still.
I dont think I've seen a quitter yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

All of you give me encouragement. 

Thanks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

OT

Stay strong. Stay focused.

You did not burn Rome down in a day.

Nor will it be rebuilt in a day.

Exercise patience. Be watchful.

And do not give up. You know how hurt she is. Now she is lost and making poorer decisions.

Patience.

Take this time to fix you. And show her who you really are after all these years.

It is never too late.....

HM


----------



## B1

that's great to hear Joe. Glad you got through it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

happyman64 said:


> OT
> 
> Stay strong. Stay focused.
> 
> You did not burn Rome down in a day.
> 
> Nor will it be rebuilt in a day.
> 
> Exercise patience. Be watchful.
> 
> And do not give up. You know how hurt she is. Now she is lost and making poorer decisions.
> 
> Patience.
> 
> Take this time to fix you. And show her who you really are after all these years.
> 
> It is never too late.....
> 
> HM


Happyman has a very good point. Patience is a powerful weapon when attempting to reconcile. We all will have ****ty times as well as good times. Patience will get us from one to the other. 
Reconciliation, like EI and others have said , isn't a "one size fits all", type of situation. Each story is very different, one from the others. My story is considerably different from Joe and Pidge's or Calvin and CSS's or anyone elses. By communicating and working together as, if not friends, then as people with shared concerns, we can help each other and learn more about ourselves, in the bargain. I like TAM a lot. I wish, heartily, that I had come here sooner.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> joe and rookie and b1, you know i'm there with you in those ups and downs. i'm also one of those that gets triggered by the random mentions of infidelity on tv.... gosh i'm longing to get to the other side of this
> 
> things still look positive here, as i was describing to you a few days ago. MC in progress and H sounding more and more as though he is finally really on board with R.
> 
> he's seeing lots of things more clearly every day -- and he brings them up in conversation. i think i believe that he is working hard every day. i am grateful for this progress. but you know what i still need? that completely honest conversation (or 2 or 3 or whatever) that releases me from the web of lies. i'm not even talking about _detail_ details -- i'm don't so much need that. i'm talking about all the basic parameters like who, what, where, when, etc.
> 
> H has acknowledged that he knows that we must go down this path. i know what a nightmare this part of the process will be for him.
> 
> the WSs on this thread have helped me understand how painful complete transparency about the A is/was for them, even when they really want R and love their partners. plus here are some other particulars of my situation: 1) my WS is not as aware/articulate about feelings as you all are, and 2) my WS is a man
> 
> #2 seems so obvious! but i've recently begun to think more about it. some things are still exactly the same, i think, regardless of gender... but still some things are going to be a little different. like, lots of men get raised with SUCH strong messages to NOT go to that apologetic, "weak" place (although we know that it actually is an incredibly strong and courageous place!) ... and i see this stuff kicking in with him.
> 
> it's going to have to happen. but this whole thing has seemed to go better when i haven't been working overtime trying to fix it and save it and steer it. so i am going to try to practice patience for a while longer, as long as i see his effort and progress... even though it means that i am still standing closer to the door than i would like


Remember Margrace to keep working on you, let him see a strong confident margrace, even one who can and will survive without him if necessary. 

I agree on the patience thing now, it sounds like he's moving forward and on board now. I know taking the pressure off someone can help a situation and help them move forward. But... you still need and deserve the what, where and when how many etc. he owes you that much and you deserve and need to get those details. Not sure how patient you should be though, I guess that ones up to you.

Take care margrace hope everything keeps moving forward for you two!


----------



## B1

I Went through my hurt list with EI last night, man that was hard, It was 5 pages long and EI listened and comforted me throughout it. Then we shredded it. Most of it was nothing new, nothing she hadn't heard before, That's just the first time I sat down and went throught them all.
Many in great detail.

She really helped with some of the issues and others all she could do was listen, and she did that perfectly. She said we can do this until I don't have to do it anymore. She realizes it's a journey and this journey will take me back down this painful path again and she is saying she's hear to talk, answer and listen whenever I want.

She still doesn't feel fully deserving of my love, I hope that changes very soon. 

My goal of happiness is coming along very well


----------



## bfree

betrayed1 said:


> I Went through my hurt list with EI last night, man that was hard, It was 5 pages long and EI listened and comforted me throughout it. Then we shredded it. Most of it was nothing new, nothing she hadn't heard before, That's just the first time I sat down and went throught them all.
> Many in great detail.
> 
> She really helped with some of the issues and others all she could do was listen, and she did that perfectly. She said we can do this until I don't have to do it anymore. She realizes it's a journey and this journey will take me back down this painful path again and she is saying she's hear to talk, answer and listen whenever I want.
> 
> She still doesn't feel fully deserving of my love, I hope that changes very soon.
> 
> My goal of happiness is coming along very well


Do you feel better? Is there a sense of relief at having gone through the list and shredding it. BTW, nice symbolism in shredding old hurts.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Wow B1 that's amazing that you could do that. I still feel like I carry a lot of hurt deep down but am afraid to bring it all up again at times. 
I'm having a bit of a crappy 24hrs. Long story short but a friend/ work colleague came over last night to discuss a job opportunity that has come up in my Hs place of work. So we sat there for about an hour discussing the pros and cons of my Hs work place. Remember ah had his A with a co worker, he's been off work for 6 months, but is due to return, probably in the next few weeks. 
Well all the old feelings of anxiety and nausea returned and I just wanted to run away and curl up like a child. I hate talking about that place, hate thinking about it. As soon as he returns H is going to look for another job.

H knew something was wrong, extra hugs and kisses and kindness, but he didn't ask! And I didn't say! Rug sweeping? Don't know, I just think neither of us want to face the hurt again, but if I feel like this tomorrow, we ARE having the conversation!

Love to you all. Stay positive, even on he crappy days!
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

B1 said " She still doesn't feel fully deserving of my love, I hope that changes very soon."

EI ---- you and B1 have come so far on this journey.

If B1 has forgiven you -- you have to forgive yourself.

Easier said then done -- but you have both worked, talked, communicated, laughed, cried, hugged, etc these last few months -- and the only way to continue to move forward is to forgive yourself.

You both will never forget what happened -- and that is okay --- because when a person makes a mistake -- the goal he or she should have is to learn from that mistake and never let it happen again.

I think you have both learned alot from this painful experience -- so you both are on the right track IMO.

Take care ---


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Yes, I am still alive.

OM's visit cancelled. Wife is "processing" the fact that, if she chooses to continue this, I am going to leave. She mentioned it last night. I have a weird feeling she may have discovered TAM and figured out who I am. I don't know. But if she reads all this stuff, it could be helpful.

Always appreciate your prayers.


----------



## B1

*bfree* It's a double edge sword for me. Part of me feels better, another part just hurt again bringing it all back up. EI did help with several of the hurts, basically saying some just were not true, that I was over imagining things, and I probably was. I still struggle with a few hurts even today, we had a long talk last night about them, she knows what they are and has given me all the info I need to process them, it's just tough and it will take time.

I try so hard to not bring the hurtful things up, but it does build up over time and I can't hold it in. EI usually knows when something is bothering me and sits me down and asks point blank, what's going on. She is so good about that. Although she hates and hurts going over it, she knows and understands that I need to from time to time and she does it. 

It's actually been a tougher few days. Basically I have really good days with some very bad moments that can last anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour. But the overall peace I feel and happiness I do have is very nice. It's a happiness that I have not felt in as long as I can remember.
Things are improving, I just have a few more hurdles to get over but right now they are just to high to jump over, that will change though.
I have a pole vault on order  I WILL get over them!

*DaisyGirl* It was tough going over those hurts...in the middle of it, I was in tears, I could barely read it, EI said, this isn't helping B1, this is supposed to help, she asked me several times to stop and come to her...but I didn't I just kept reading. It was tough to do but overall I am glad I did it. EI took it well too, there was some very graphic and hard stuff on that list.
Some hurtful things towards her, I almost didn't do it. She insisted we do it so we did.

About your hubby going back to work...
That has to be so tough, knowing he's going back to that place, what a huge trigger. Hopefully he can find work somewhere else soon. So sorry you two have to endure that now. 

*JH* Thank you for that post. YES, EI needs to forgive herself...she really needs to do this. I want it for her. Lately, she has been self loathing and asking all the time, "why do you love me now?" She tells me I could find someone else that didn't do this, someone that was true etc..
This is where she goes often and I hate it for her. I tell her all the time to rest assured in my love, that I am NOT going anywhere. I really do love her with all my heart and I plan to grow old with her.

*hope\bobka* Glad to hear from you, I was wondering where you ran off too. I was getting worried that something was wrong.
If she did discover this place, well, I think that's a good thing. She will see some rough stuff but she really needs to know how important it is to break it off so that you two can truly move forward.


----------



## Rookie4

Hi, TAM'ers, guess who's got a new roommate? Yours truly. Sweetie is coming home for a week or two. Her appartment is having a new bathroom installed, and she was going to stay with her parents, but I said, "why don't you come to the house and stay"? She sobbed and hyper-ventilated for a while and I thought she was going to faint. Apparently she is very happy.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> EI usually knows when something is bothering me and sits me down and asks point blank, what's going on. She is so good about that. *Although she hates and hurts going over it, she knows and understands that I need to from time to time and she does it.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Sounds a little like real love to me. *Volunteering for pain to help another is very good proof; proof that is backed up by strong actions that are hard to do.*
> 
> You have a great beginning and with you two facing the inevitable pains the way that you do, your marriage will get better each year
> 
> Congratulation B1 and EI!!!


----------



## Mr Blunt

Rookie4

*You touch your wife so very deeply!!*

Even though it is only 10 days into 2013, I think I would vote for Rookie4 to be the TAM ROOKIE of the Year for his outstanding R. Even though Rookie4 is just in the beginning (1st quarter) of R he and his wife are pulling off slam dunks every time they get together.

*Very exciting and encouraging!*


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks, Blunt, but I"m just winging it. I do what I feel is the right thing to do at the right time. If it works, I'm a hero if it doesn't I'm the goat. I look back and see that I could have definitely played it better than I did. 
On the other hand, She is proving her love , almost 24/7, and I am amazed at her growth and maturity. My doubts about her love and desire and honesty are fading fast.
PLus, she is so excited .


----------



## EI

Thank you Mr. Blunt, for your occasional visits to the "R" thread to offer your encouragement. Sometimes, a positive thought or a kind word is just what we need to find the strength to keep going. I can't tell you how many times I have felt down and discouraged, only to log on and find something positive to lift my spirits back up. Interestingly enough, the kind words don't even necessarily have to be directed towards me. When I see the "Reconcilers" rallying around any one of us who happens to be in need at the moment, it warms my heart, lifts my spirits, makes me smile and gives me strength to continue fighting the good fight. So, once again, thank you.

Rookie, you are like a 17 y/o high school boy who just scored a date with the captain of the cheerleading squad. You can barely contain your excitement! And, it's quite contagious! You're like a puppy whose tail is wagging so fast that your whole back end is moving....... LOL I mean that in a good way!  I have a prediction..... but, I am a bit hesitant to share it because I don't want to influence it by voicing it. So, I will send you a pm...... Do not open it for the next two weeks. It's important that I send it now before you make any additional posts. But, again, do not open it until it is time for your "Sweetie" to return to her apartment. Deal?

daisy girl, I was just thinking about you yesterday. I knew that your husband would have to be getting closer and closer to returning to his job if he hadn't already. I know that this is going to cause you some anxiety, at least temporarily. I think that the time that you and your hubby have shared during the last 6 months that he has been off will prove to have been worthwhile in strengthening your bond with one another. I know that this will be hard for you, so lean on us and we'll be here to help you through it. I'm sure that it will be hard on your husband, as well, just knowing the stress that you will be feeling. Try to use this as an opportunity to grow even closer. Sometimes, I honestly think that every time B1 and I get through another difficult hurdle that we get even closer than we were before. We simply refuse to let anything divide us anymore. We dive head first, together, into everything these days. I think that I am truly beginning to grasp the meaning of "One Flesh" in the biblical definition of marriage.

Everyone else, to borrow a phrase from Acabado, "Hang Tough."

Take care,
~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Thanks, Blunt, but I"m just winging it. I do what I feel is the right thing to do at the right time. If it works, I'm a hero if it doesn't I'm the goat. I look back and see that I could have definitely played it better than I did.
> On the other hand, She is proving her love , almost 24/7, and I am amazed at her growth and maturity. My doubts about her love and desire and honesty are fading fast.
> PLus, she is so excited .


You are so not winging it......

You took your time. Healed. Got over the hurt as best you could.

You have a remorseful woman who knows what and whom she almost lost.

Enjoy the time together. Enjoy each other......

That is what life and love is truly about.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Hi, TAM'ers, guess who's got a new roommate? Yours truly. Sweetie is coming home for a week or two. Her appartment is having a new bathroom installed, and she was going to stay with her parents, but I said, "why don't you come to the house and stay"? She sobbed and hyper-ventilated for a while and I thought she was going to faint. Apparently she is very happy.


Thats great to hear Rookie,I pray everyone here makes it and i believe we all will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

woo-hoo Rookie..
Your wife sounds like she really gets it, she's truly sorry and really in love with you. What a journey with your R, WOW! keep us posted on how this arrangement is working out.


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Thats great to hear Rookie,I pray everyone here makes it and i believe we all will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes, Calvin, I worry that we (Sweetie and I) are going too fast, and I will deliberately slow things down for a while.
At other times, I realize that a LOT of the hard work and anguish of R, we have already gone through. Remember that even though our R is taking place now, the affair ended 2 years ago, so we both have had time to process it and to decide what our wants and needs are.
All of the things she should be doing, Transparency, letter of NC, accountability, and complete honesty , she has already done and is still doing, proving herself to me , every day. I honestly don't have any issues , NOW, that she hasn't or isn't addressing.
I , too, hope that we all can recover and have brighter futures.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie, I think EI's analogy is spot on, and while she is waiting on her prediction, I am going to go ahead and post mine. I was spot-on with Christmas Eve, so I am going to go for 2-0 with this one. Here's what I think:

*When the two weeks is up, your Sweetie will be looking for someone to sub-let her apartment, because she won't be going back there!* 

I like that you two have a legitimate excuse for her staying with you for a few weeks,and that it's not her flat-out moving back in. But I think when the 2 weeks is up, you are not going to want to let her go. And based on her behavior, we already know that she will be more than happy to stay.

Best of luck to you both, but I don't think you really need it, so I guess, instead I'll say: Have a great few weeks! :smthumbup:


----------



## Rookie4

betrayed1 said:


> woo-hoo Rookie..
> Your wife sounds like she really gets it, she's truly sorry and really in love with you. What a journey with your R, WOW! keep us posted on how this arrangement is working out.


B1, I think she really does. She works soooo hard to re-assure me and to explain what her mindset was back then, that I' ve got her therapist on speed-dial. Lol Btw, the therapist/counselor told me that Sweetie said that she (counselor) could tell me anything and everything they discus, as she doesn't want any secrets between us. I'm pretty happy about that. Of course the therapist isn't allowed to, but she has said that if I join in the counseling, then there would be no problem. The counselor is very pro-honesty and openess. She also told me that we are doing great at communicating our thoughts and feelings to each other. This was a major issue before the affair.


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> Rookie, I think EI's analogy is spot on, and while she is waiting on her prediction, I am going to go ahead and post mine. I was spot-on with Christmas Eve, so I am going to go for 2-0 with this one. Here's what I think:
> 
> *When the two weeks is up, your Sweetie will be looking for someone to sub-let her apartment, because she won't be going back there!*
> 
> I like that you two have a legitimate excuse for her staying with you for a few weeks,and that it's not her flat-out moving back in. But I think when the 2 weeks is up, you are not going to want to let her go. And based on her behavior, we already know that she will be more than happy to stay.
> 
> Best of luck to you both, but I don't think you really need it, so I guess, instead I'll say: Have a great few weeks! :smthumbup:


WE are headed to Indianapolis for a long weekend, but I'll try to keep in touch. BTW we have already discussed this, and you might be right.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> the therapist/counselor told me that Sweetie said that she (counselor) could tell me anything and everything they discus, as she doesn't want any secrets between us. I'm pretty happy about that. Of course the therapist isn't allowed to, but she has said that if I join in the counseling, then there would be no problem.


If you do want to speak with her, all Sweetie would have to do is sign a release of information, and then that would allow the therapist to break confidentiality with you. We use 'em all the time where I work.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> You're like a puppy whose tail is wagging so fast that your whole back end is moving....... LOL I mean that in a good way!
> 
> *It appears his back end is moving a LOT these days!*
> 
> I think that I am truly beginning to grasp the meaning of "One Flesh" in the biblical definition of marriage.
> 
> *This passage is DEFINITELY about sex, you know.*
> 
> Everyone else, to borrow a phrase from Acabado, "Hang Tough."
> 
> *Hanging tough in Minnesota. She is coming around, VERY slowly. I am hoping, cautiously, that WW is "getting there."*
> 
> *My best to all of you!*


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Hey, Betrayed1 - I think it could be cathartic for you to change your handle, like your sweet wife did. I just checked, and B1 is NOT taken. 

Think about it!


----------



## CantSitStill

Should I ask Calvin to write all of his hurts down? Oh God I'm a bit freaked out. D-day is comin up and he's triggering but once he calms down and we text he triggers out again...really bad day. He's supposd to pick up a new TV. Well last year around this time he told our son he was gonna get a new TV and I whispered to him to not say those things because we aren't sure if we'll still be together.. I soooo wish I was not in that frame of mind. I was ready to give up and divorce. UGGG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Yes It was all my fault,you want a D,then fine
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

What?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

hell no and no it was not your fault OMG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I am sooo sorry I wish I could erase it all I love you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Sorry,I misread that,shouldnt be doing that and driving
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

love you too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Hey, Betrayed1 - I think it could be cathartic for you to change your handle, like your sweet wife did. I just checked, and B1 is NOT taken.
> 
> Think about it!


Awww...... thank you, that was such a nice suggestion, HSE. I don't mind confessing that I have often wished that he would change it, too. But, I didn't want to suggest it. I wanted him to figure that out on his own. I guess when he feels healed from my betrayal then the thought might cross his mind! We shall see! 

Again, thank you for thinking about it. It touches me that you understand the significance of changing a username when the name, itself, serves as a painful reminder of such a terrible time in our life. Trust me when I say that I do not need to see his username to be reminded of my greatest failure in life. There really is never a moment in which I am not "aware" of the pain that I caused B1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> Rookie, I think EI's analogy is spot on, and while she is waiting on her prediction, I am going to go ahead and post mine. I was spot-on with Christmas Eve, so I am going to go for 2-0 with this one. Here's what I think:
> 
> *When the two weeks is up, your Sweetie will be looking for someone to sub-let her apartment, because she won't be going back there!*
> 
> I like that you two have a legitimate excuse for her staying with you for a few weeks,and that it's not her flat-out moving back in. But I think when the 2 weeks is up, you are not going to want to let her go. And based on her behavior, we already know that she will be more than happy to stay.
> 
> Best of luck to you both, but I don't think you really need it, so I guess, instead I'll say: Have a great few weeks! :smthumbup:


I think she is going to sneak back to her apartment in order to sabotage the plumbing and when she gets there she's going to find rookie breaking a pipe or two.


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## bfree

So rookie, when do we get to talk to sweetie? I'd love to give her an internet high 5.


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## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Joe and Pidge got this or they still would not be working at it as hard as they are.
> I see all the couples on this thread giving it their all still.
> I dont think I've seen a quitter yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


Sorry to hear that but I understand
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


Oh no! Gosh after 2 yrs you guys can't work it out? : ( Is it a full moon?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Me and CSS are going to go get that tv,right NOW.
Cant let this happen,I guess its symbolic in a way to me.
Yeah its just a tv but there is more too it than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


Dont do it,come on man!
I've been good for awhile,today is...was bad.
Circle the fvcking wagons and lets fight God damn it!!
Pidge loves you and you love her.
Same with CSS and me,lets not let our stupid ass pride get in our way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

joe kidd said:


> Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


Sometimes it just doesn't work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

joe kidd said:


> Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


I'm so sorry, Joe. God knows that you both tried. Two years is a long time to hang on and I know that neither of you would give up without having given it everything you had to give. Perhaps, this is the only way that each of you will find peace and healing. If you don't mind, I will still hold out hope for a miracle and keep you and your family in my prayers. I know that B1 and I are a miracle. The relationship that you guys, on the "R" thread, get a glimpse of bears absolutely no resemblance to what our marriage had slowly become over the last decade. I don't know how we've managed, but we're still here. 

Please don't be a stranger here. We care about both of you. Let us support you guys however we can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I'm with EI I'll be praying for God's will in your situation Joe and Pidge. However it turns out we all here on TAM want you both happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

I'm sorry Joe.


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## B1

Me too, so sorry Joe..I am so sorry to hear this 
I truly hope this passes and you two can work things out.


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## CantSitStill

Keep in touch please Joe and Pidge
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Pidge and Joe, BTDT. R is very hard and you both have tried , but D isn't much better, especially if there is a lot of affection still. I can't give you much advice, but only to say be ABSOLUTELY SURE of whatever decision you make.....then go ahead. We are always going to try to help, or act as a sounding board for your ideas and feelings and thoughts. Good Luck to you both.


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## calvin

Pulling for you joe and Pidge,I'd hate to see you guys split after all the time and work you have invested in your R.
It kinda makes me sad.....no,it does make me sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

joe kidd said:


> Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


Joe

Can you tell us why you and Pidge have come to that conclusion? 

HM64


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## Hope Springs Eternal

joe kidd said:


> thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


what?


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## calvin

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> what?


I know,I wish they'd work on it more.
Its hard as hell but it CAN be done.
Ugh....this actually bothers me.
I'm in even if its hard,I could'nt imagine my CSS out there on her own,it would kill me,even if she did hurt the hell out of me I know I no longer need to worry.I still get upset but I have to push on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

joe kidd said:


> Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


This really saddens me too. Praying for the best for both of you, Joe and Pidge.


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## margrace

joe kidd said:


> Thanks for the words but we are going our separate ways.


oh no.... i feel so *sad* as i read this.

at the same time, i know that splitting up is the right thing for both people sometimes. and if that's the case for you and pidge, then i am wishing the best for both of you as you begin this next chapter of your lives.

i also know that you could definitely have caught me on some days where i said, we're going our separate ways -- but that was just my (true) feeling on that particular crappy day. if that's what's going on, i hope that you and pidge can keep putting one foot in front of another for a bit until you work through this tough spot.

either way: love to you both. please keep in touch. missing you already. xxx margrace


----------



## B1

Name is officially changed to B1.
Now I just have to figure out what it stands for 

Had a nice day yesterday. EI went out with a friend for lunch, sent me pics as usual, even though I told her not to worry about it. 
I tried to go to the shooting range but thanks to Obama all the 9mm ammo was gone everywhere I looked. And apparently it is going up too?

We are still doing good. I still have my bad moments, EI still worries horribly when she is out and about, always calling me, texting me, sending me pics, she is really worrying herself into a frenzy sometimes. She says she is doing what she thinks I need. 

EI, as I have said already, I trust you sweety, I honestly trust you. 

EI isn't going to do this again, no doubt in my mind. Now, what if many hours would have gone by and then I called her and got no answer, would I worry then, sure would, I would worry she had been hurt! 

Time to go, I have manly duties to perform, I have a light switch to repair.....and I hate messing with electricity. But I will get to use my new electric screwdriver so it's worth it.


----------



## ChangingMe

Yea for the name change, B1!


----------



## Rookie4

Simple, B1, stands for "Bluegrass One!!!"


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

B1 said:


> Name is officially changed to B1.
> Now I just have to figure out what it stands for
> 
> _"Vitamin B1, also known as thiamine, is sometimes called an "anti-stress" vitamin because it may strengthen the immune system and improve the body's ability to withstand stressful conditions. It is named B1 because it was the first B vitamin discovered."
> _
> Source: Vitamin B1 (thiamine)
> 
> Had a nice day yesterday. EI went out with a friend for lunch, sent me pics as usual, even though I told her not to worry about it.
> 
> I tried to go to the shooting range but thanks to Obama all the 9mm ammo was gone everywhere I looked. And apparently it is going up too?
> 
> Making it more expensive will _surely_ save lives.
> 
> We are still doing good. I still have my bad moments, EI still worries horribly when she is out and about, always calling me, texting me, sending me pics, she is really worrying herself into a frenzy sometimes. She says she is doing what she thinks I need.
> 
> EI, as I have said already, I trust you sweety, I honestly trust you.
> 
> EI isn't going to do this again, no doubt in my mind. Now, what if many hours would have gone by and then I called her and got no answer, would I worry then, sure would, I would worry she had been hurt!
> 
> Time to go, I have manly duties to perform, I have a light switch to repair.....and I hate messing with electricity. But I will get to use my new electric screwdriver so it's worth it.


Well, if we don't see you back here, at least we'll know what happened!


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## pidge70

Thanks for the kind words everyone, we are okay.


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## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Thanks for the kind words everyone, we are okay.


Thats good to hear,thinking of you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

So, Pidge and Joe, what gives? You have GOT to quit doing this to me, my stress level goes up and I seek solace in my old friend George ****el.


----------



## pidge70

Rookie4 said:


> So, Pidge and Joe, what gives? You have GOT to quit doing this to me, my stress level goes up and I seek solace in my old friend George ****el.


Sorry Rookie.....


----------



## Rookie4

Not a problem. George and I go way back. I keep a bottle in my Liquor cabinet for just such occasions. Things get a little out of whack, and a couple of fingers of George mellows me right out.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Take it easy Pidge and Joe.
Thinking of you and hoping for the best outcome for you both.
(((((((Hugs))))))
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

We all know how hard R can be,joe is doing what I did,flip flopping around,it gets stuck in your head sometimes.
Pidge is sticking by him like CSS sticks by me,both of these ladies are doing all they can to comfort and love.
I know the WS hurts also.
This isnt easy for anyone.
Got a feeling joe and Pidge are going to be just fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

btw, I just think you guys should know:

This thread is a sign that we imperfect people (and that means everyone) despite our imperfections, still have hope.

I think this is probably my all time favourite thread, anywhere, ever.


----------



## margrace

pidge70 said:


> Thanks for the kind words everyone, we are okay.


makes my day


----------



## B1

Rags said:


> I think this is probably my all time favourite thread, anywhere, ever.


yeah, mine too 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

So glad to hear you and Joe are doing better..these ups and downs can get real scary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Hang in there Joe and Pidge --- like I always says -- an hour at a time, a day at a time -- especially when things are going "rocky".

Have a good week Tam Fam.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Joe and Pidge,

So glad to hear that you guys are still in it to win it! We all know how hard some days can be, and how much our emotions can swing and take control sometimes. Seems like you rode it out and are moving ahead. So kudos!

Today was another good day here, and I had a bit of a thought that might help during the hard times. This weekend was a really laid back weekend as friday night finished with both of our kids puking (daughter is 5 and son is 2).  So we have been homebodies for the last couple of days. But kids rebounded pretty well, and were even ready for dinner last night. 

We rolled out some fresh dough and made pizzas as family in the kitchen, it was really fun. Today we slept in (skipped church even!) and made pancakes as a family for breakfast. After breakfast we were playing wih the kids in the living room on the floor, in front of a big roaring fire in the fireplace. My wife, both kids and I just playing and laughing. 

It was during this that I paused to reflect on how much this moment was worth. I thought about what we would be missing if we had thrown in the towel. I know that we can sometimes focus on the negative aspects of R, but I suddenly was thinking about the negatives of not pushing through R. I can't imagine missing these moments. 

Not to say that if we had done the big D that we wouldn't be happy, or the kids wouldn't be happy. But we wouldn't have those moments together, as a family. 

So while all of this was occurring to me, I am guessing I must have looked a little pensive/emotional. Because at that moment, my wife looked at me and asked "what was wrong?" in a cautious voice. I smiled back at her and said, "Not a thing. Not one thing."

I plan to use this realization the next time things get a little bumpy. Think about all of the moments we have experienced, and will experience, that only have a chance of happening becuase of our R.


----------



## B1

what a beautiful post NH2ME thank you so much for sharing that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

B1 said:


> what a beautiful post NH2ME thank you so much for sharing that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Beautiful was the exact word that came to my mind too when I read that. Thank you.


----------



## EI

It was a quiet and relaxing day around the B1 and EI household today. Grandson was not feeling well so daughter & S-I-L didn't spend the day here after church like usual. Our oldest son did come by for a short visit and ate dinner with us. It was just a normal day...... except for earlier this morning when B1 rocked my world...... several times. Of course, I can't really say that that hasn't become part of our new normal. What happens when you cross an HD wife with a formerly LD husband who is now more HD than the HD wife ever thought of being? Exhaustion!!! You won't ever hear me complaining. B1 is so proud of himself. He told me tonight that he is really starting to learn what pleases me. I told him that he isn't learning what pleases me...... he is teaching me what pleases me, because he is discovering new ways that I didn't even know existed until now!

Geeeeeez, was that TMI?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Today was another good day here.............
> Today we slept in (skipped church even!) and made pancakes as a family for breakfast. After breakfast we were playing with the kids in the living room on the floor, in front of a big roaring fire in the fireplace. My wife, both kids and I just playing and laughing.
> 
> It was during this that I paused to reflect on how much this moment was worth. I thought about what we would be missing if we had thrown in the towel. I know that we can sometimes focus on the negative aspects of R, but I suddenly was thinking about the negatives of not pushing through R. I can't imagine missing these moments.
> 
> 
> So while all of this was occurring to me, I am guessing I must have looked a little pensive/emotional. Because at that moment, my wife looked at me and asked "what was wrong?" in a cautious voice. I smiled back at her and said, "Not a thing. Not one thing."
> 
> I plan to use this realization the next time things get a little bumpy. Think about all of the moments we have experienced, and will experience, that only have a chance of happening becuase of our R.


Your posts are always written with the elegance of a beautiful romance novel. Thank you so much for sharing with us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> Thanks for the kind words everyone, we are okay.


I'm so glad to hear that, Pidge. I still remember being so moved by Joe's posts at the beginning of the holiday season about how much he was looking forward to them this year for the first time in a few years. Somehow, that truly made me enjoy mine even more. I love for people to be happy. I love how we all share that happiness, here, with each other. Happiness multiplies when shared. But, the hard times, when shared, do the opposite.......... 


Okay, enough Pollyanna for tonight! I'm going to eat a DQ Carmel Sundae and go to bed.

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

> *from never happen:* It was during this that I paused to reflect on how much this moment was worth. I thought about what we would be missing if we had thrown in the towel. I know that we can sometimes focus on the negative aspects of R, but I suddenly was thinking about the negatives of not pushing through R....I plan to use this realization the next time things get a little bumpy. Think about all of the moments we have experienced, and will experience, that only have a chance of happening becuase of our R.


amen, never happen!

the costs of putting it all on the line for R sometimes can seem so monumental compared to the eventual benefits.... partly because the benefits *are* eventual, and the costs are here now. 

those costs feel high some days and i struggle with them. mostly being afraid of being hurt again.

but these investments that we have in each other's lives are so precious, and time is flying by, and life is unpredictable, and you don't get a guarantee whichever way you go. 

so IF you can both commit to working on preserving/deepening/improving the relationship you have built together (and that's a big if), how do you walk away from that?

don't we all want to live in relationships where people try their hardest to live up to their aspirations, but also treat each other with compassion when they fall short of their (and our) ideals? (of course, i'm talking about people who are REALLY trying and who REALLY care -- not sociopaths or ill people who aren't so concerned about their effect on other people.) i sure need that! i have made SO many mistakes in my marriage and elsewhere. we all need to give and receive the opportunity to be accountable and to be forgiven -- unless we want to go be a lone hermit on a mountaintop somewhere. 

part of what's been so hard for me is that, in my case, even the ability to commit has had to evolve. my WH said from the beginning that he wanted to work on R -- but the first time that he said it, it wasn't entirely true. he did not really understand what was required and was just sort of going along for the ride.

it's a work in progress, but there is progress. this past weekend, he asked me how i thought R was going. i told him that, even though i think things are generally going in the right direction, i kind of have one foot out the door until the truth about *everything* comes out. some of you will remember that he has resisted, resisted, resisted this. yesterday he told me that he understands this and he is working on it with the therapist now. trying to avoid it, he said, is "the coward's way out." 

"Don't give up on me yet," he said.

no, sweetheart, as long as you are in there swinging, i'm not giving up.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

B1 said:


> yeah, mine too
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who is "B1"?


----------



## EI

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Who is "B1"?


He "B" the "1" I love!!! ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Watched a movie last night with Bruce Willis and Micheal Phiffer,cant remember the name of it but she wanted a D and she had a guy on the side.
In the end it worked out but the movie really got to me.
I need to stay away from movies like that.
Willis crying in the movie reminded me of CSS telling me how unmanly I was when I cried.
I hate watching what I thing is a good movie then in the middle of it the infidelity starts,it seems like its everywhere now.
Either that or I never really noticed before.
It tiggered CSS also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Margrace, your post is beautiful too. It brought tears to my eyes. I hope both your husband and Never Happens wife realize what wonderful people they've married and what a gift you both have given them in trying to R. That sounds cheesy, but I 100% mean it. 



And, Calvin, what is it with infidelity in movies and on TV?!?! I swear I can't watch ANYTHING without cheating popping up in some way. DD and I were watching "Dinner for Schmucks" last night, which we hadn't seen. It had no hint of having anything to do with infidelity, but sure enough, the guy's girlfriend thinks he's cheating on her. It wasn't a huge part of the story, but it still sticks out like a huge sore thumb. I didn't like the movie anyway & was tired, so I just went to bed. It's no wonder DD and I don't watch barely any TV these days . . .


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Watched a movie last night with Bruce Willis and Micheal Phiffer,cant remember the name of it but she wanted a D and she had a guy on the side.
> In the end it worked out but the movie really got to me.
> I need to stay away from movies like that.
> Willis crying in the movie reminded me of CSS telling me how unmanly I was when I cried.
> I hate watching what I thing is a good movie then in the middle of it the infidelity starts,it seems like its everywhere now.
> Either that or I never really noticed before.
> It tiggered CSS also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's "The Story of Us." Good movie, if you can handle it. Haven't watched it since the A.


----------



## calvin

Yeah CM,it seems to be everywhere.
I guess it has been for awhile but I just never paid much attention to it or maybe felt sorry for the poor smuck.
Now I pretty much turn it off or go do something else,I cant handle it.CSS got pretty emotional also.
At least it had a happy ending.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Sweetie and I have a new song. We had an old song, but it was for the old marriage. It's an old song for a new love.Jim Croce - Time in a Bottle - YouTube


----------



## Acabado

Here comes the man, B1... stop it already!! ... wait! don't stop at all. :smthumbup:


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks all for the continued positivity and hope in this thread. I needed it today.


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks all for the continued positivity and hope in this thread. I needed it today.


We may have a positive attitude, but , believe me, we aren't positive about anything else.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> We may have a positive attitude, but , believe me, we aren't positive about anything else.


I can dig that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> "Don't give up on me yet," he said.
> 
> no, sweetheart, as long as you are in there swinging, i'm not giving up.


I love it, margrace. You have such a sweet spirit.  I hope your husband knows how fortunate he is. Up until now, you have done more than your share of the heavy lifting, in your reconciliation, when that burden should have been on him. As the WS in my marriage, I sincerely appreciate your willingness to so openly share with us your shortcomings in the marriage prior to your husband's infidelity. But, you have worked so hard and given so much, I hope that your husband will really step up, do the work, and become the kind of husband that you deserve.

~EI


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> We may have a positive attitude, but , believe me, *we aren't positive about anything else.*


Yes we are!   Never say that again, Rookie!   

We are positive about *EVERYTHING!* If you're not going to be positive then just pick up your toys and go play on another one of those more maudlin threads! 

Okay, somebody stop me....... I'm in one of those aggravating kind of moods...... I, usually, aggravate B1 and the kids, I love aggravating my son-in-law..... easy target..... but, now, I've got you guys, as well! 

_jus' kiddin'_


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> Yes we are!   Never say that again, Rookie!
> 
> We are positive about *EVERYTHING!* If you're not going to be positive then just pick up your toys and go play on another one of those more maudlin threads!
> 
> Okay, somebody stop me....... I'm in one of those aggravating kind of moods...... I, usually, aggravate B1 and the kids, I love aggravating my son-in-law..... easy target..... *but, now, I've got you guys, as well! *
> _jus' kiddin'_


Bring it!


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Bring it!


*That sounds like a challenge! *


----------



## CantSitStill

can I play?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Im in work and my son just txt me. him and his girlfriend have split up. Hes 19 and theyve been dating for about a year. Hes a sensitive lad. I hate that im in work and cant give him a big squish! 

H is with him! wonder what words of wisdom he is giving him!!!


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> can I play?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course you can!


----------



## ChangingMe

Let me tell y'all something I love about my husband. He is really so funny, and he can, when he chooses to, really do whatever he tries to do -whether that is rewiring a car, flying a plane, building a media room, you name it. 

I also think that, when he truly makes a decision to R, he will be able to work through this mess that I have made for us, no question. 

So anyway -back to today. He and I have been doing ok -no big drama, but not a lot of affection either. This morning, he left for work saying I love you to each of the kids and flat-out ignoring me. I texted him after he left, and we texted back and forth this morning, but I could tell he was not doing all that great.

He sent me a text this afternoon with a photo of a postcard of a unicorn. He wrote, "I was having a bad day but decided to have a good day. Couldn't go for a run or anything but got a snack and got some stupid postcards with unicorns and rainbows and am sending them to [his friends] from [the same friends]." So he sent me what he wrote on these postcards, and it's hilarious, and the thought of these 3 guys getting these random unicorn postcards in the mail with basically love notes from their male friends was enough to cheer him up. 

I am sure this is a "you have to be there" kind of thing, but the main thing to take from here is that DD made the decision to not have a bad day and to find a way to circumvent instead of wallow. This is huge, and I appreciate it so much. Also, he's just damn funny, and the cards he wrote made me laugh too -to the point of my receptionist asking what I was laughing about. He deserves to have good days, and I love that he was able to cheer himself up. 

I am having to work late tonight, but should get to leave in about 30 minutes. I'm looking forward to getting home to him and my babies. But right now I have to run to the post office next door to buy some postcard stamps.


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> *That sounds like a challenge! *


No, its a dare.


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Im in work and my son just txt me. him and his girlfriend have split up. Hes 19 and theyve been dating for about a year. Hes a sensitive lad. I hate that im in work and cant give him a big squish!
> 
> H is with him! wonder what words of wisdom he is giving him!!!


Oh daisygirl, I feel for you, your hubby and, especially, your son. I have a daughter and 4 sons and we have endured countless breakups and ooooooooh some of them were very hard on the kids..... some were rough on "Mom" (me) too! Especially, if I liked the bf/gf. I've told the kids many times that in an average lifetime we will all likely get our hearts broke, at least, once and we will likely break a heart or two along the way. It's part of life. Just be there for him to listen if he wants to talk and try not to hover over him if he doesn't. Each child handles these things differently.

Do watch for signs of depression. Not wanting to talk about it is one thing. Withdrawing from friends, sports, and normal life activities, in general, is another. Our youngest son who is now 17 had his first heartbreak at 14. He really took it hard and, having been through it with the other kids, I tried to step back and give him time and space to grieve. Your son may shake it off in no time or he may grieve for several months, but if after a few weeks he doesn't seem any better than he is at the start, then you may want to make sure that he is coping properly. Ours did not..... but, that is another story and I don't want to project that onto you right now. 

Make his favorite dinner, try to schedule a few of his favorite activities and let him know you are there for him if he wants to talk. 

Hang in there, dg, there isn't much in this world that is more difficult than seeing your child in pain.

~EI


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> No, its a dare.


Is that a Double-Dog dare???


----------



## daisygirl 41

EI said:


> Oh daisygirl, I feel for you, your hubby and, especially, your son. I have a daughter and 4 sons and we have endured countless breakups and ooooooooh some of them were very hard on the kids..... some were rough on "Mom" (me) too! Especially, if I liked the bf/gf. I've told the kids many times that in an average lifetime we will all likely get our hearts broke, at least, once and we will likely break a heart or two along the way. It's part of life. Just be there for him to listen if he wants to talk and try not to hover over him if he doesn't. Each child handles these things differently.
> 
> Do watch for signs of depression. Not wanting to talk about it is one thing. Withdrawing from friends, sports, and normal life activities, in general, is another. Our youngest son who is now 17 had his first heartbreak at 14. He really took it hard and, having been through it with the other kids, I tried to step back and give him time and space to grieve. Your son may shake it off in no time or he may grieve for several months, but if after a few weeks he doesn't seem any better than he is at the start, then you may want to make sure that he is coping properly. Ours did not..... but, that is another story and I don't want to project that onto you right now.
> 
> Make his favorite dinner, try to schedule a few of his favorite activities and let him know you are there for him if he wants to talk.
> 
> Hang in there, dg, there isn't much in this world that is more difficult than seeing your child in pain.
> 
> ~EI


Thankyou. You never cease to amaze me with your thoughtful posts. I really appreciate it and take your advice on board.
He's a sensitive sole, a really lovely lad, he hasn't got a lot of confidence when it comes to girls though. He'll be ok. DH will cheer him up with his humour and ill make sure he gets lots of love and and attention. 

Boys are as deep as the ocean though aren't they? I'll make sure he knows I'm here for him. He's starting driving lessons next week so he's got something to look forward to anyway!
Thanks again
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> I am sure this is a "you have to be there" kind of thing, but the main thing to take from here is that DD made the decision to not have a bad day and to find a way to circumvent instead of wallow. This is huge, and I appreciate it so much. Also, he's just damn funny, and the cards he wrote made me laugh too -to the point of my receptionist asking what I was laughing about. He deserves to have good days, and I love that he was able to cheer himself up.


That was awesome! That totally sounds like the kind of stuff I used to do to my friends...... A sense of humor can certainly help boost your spirits! I'd just love to be a fly on the wall when his friends receive their postcards from _one another!_  :scratchhead:


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> Let me tell y'all something I love about my husband. He is really so funny, and he can, when he chooses to, really do whatever he tries to do -whether that is rewiring a car, flying a plane, building a media room, you name it.
> 
> I also think that, when he truly makes a decision to R, he will be able to work through this mess that I have made for us, no question.
> 
> So anyway -back to today. He and I have been doing ok -no big drama, but not a lot of affection either. This morning, he left for work saying I love you to each of the kids and flat-out ignoring me. I texted him after he left, and we texted back and forth this morning, but I could tell he was not doing all that great.
> 
> He sent me a text this afternoon with a photo of a postcard of a unicorn. He wrote, "I was having a bad day but decided to have a good day. Couldn't go for a run or anything but got a snack and got some stupid postcards with unicorns and rainbows and am sending them to [his friends] from [the same friends]." So he sent me what he wrote on these postcards, and it's hilarious, and the thought of these 3 guys getting these random unicorn postcards in the mail with basically love notes from their male friends was enough to cheer him up.
> 
> I am sure this is a "you have to be there" kind of thing, but the main thing to take from here is that DD made the decision to not have a bad day and to find a way to circumvent instead of wallow. This is huge, and I appreciate it so much. Also, he's just damn funny, and the cards he wrote made me laugh too -to the point of my receptionist asking what I was laughing about. He deserves to have good days, and I love that he was able to cheer himself up.
> 
> I am having to work late tonight, but should get to leave in about 30 minutes. I'm looking forward to getting home to him and my babies. But right now I have to run to the post office next door to buy some postcard stamps.


I have a feeling you both will be alright.
Everyone deserves another chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I wish CSS would gush about me like that!
Kidding..she has many times.
I'm coming around and I think DD will too.
It would haunt me if I never tried,I would never know what could have been.
I have no regrets sticking it out and doing this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> Is that a Double-Dog dare???


Are there any others?


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Boys are as deep as the ocean though aren't they? I'll make sure he knows I'm here for him. He's starting driving lessons next week so he's got something to look forward to anyway!
> Thanks again
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're very welcome..... Yes, boys are very deep and very sensitive at that age. They've already been conditioned by society to believe that "boys/men" don't cry so they often keep it inside even when their hearts are breaking. I think when boys suffer their first heartbreak they begin putting up those walls that we woman often complain about later in life. They toughen up a little and become a bit more cynical. It's all a part of them becoming men. Just make sure that he doesn't become bitter.

This is hurting my heart as I type. Every one of my boys has suffered from their first broken heart at the hands of a girlfriend. They've broken a heart or two, as well. But, I know that their biggest heartbreak, to date, was what I, their own mother, did to our family. I know that I did it, but it is beyond my comprehension, at this point, how I could have ever allowed myself to betray the very ones that I love the most in this world. Never again....... never again.


----------



## daisygirl 41

EI said:


> You're very welcome..... Yes, boys are very deep and very sensitive at that age. They've already been conditioned by society to believe that "boys/men" don't cry so they often keep it inside even when their hearts are breaking. I think when boys suffer their first heartbreak they begin putting up those walls that we woman often complain about later in life. They toughen up a little and become a bit more cynical. It's all a part of them becoming men. Just make sure that he doesn't become bitter.
> 
> This is hurting my heart as I type. Every one of my boys has suffered from their first broken heart at the hands of a girlfriend. They've broken a heart or two, as well. But, I know that their biggest heartbreak, to date, was what I, their own mother, did to our family. I know that I did it, but it is beyond my comprehension, at this point, how I could have ever allowed myself to betray the very ones that I love the most in this world. Never again....... never again.


(((((((Hugs)))))) your children love you and I'm sure they forgive you. You are such a giving and thoughtful person EI, I'm sure your children know how sorry you are. None of us as perfect, we all have regrets and life can be hard at times, but that's the journey we are all on. You are only human and I'm sure your children can see how much you regret you action and are trying to make it right.

I'm sorry if my post has upset you. It wasn't my intention. Children are resilient. As long as you and B1 are OK then they will be too
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

daisygirl 41 said:


> ...He's a sensitive sole, ..._Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it just me, or does that sound fishy?


----------



## ChangingMe

EI said:


> I know that I did it, but it is beyond my comprehension, at this point, how I could have ever allowed myself to betray the very ones that I love the most in this world. Never again....... never again.


Oh, EI, I am right there with you. It feels like a bad dream sometimes, doesn't it? I look back on the me I was 7 months ago, and it's astonishing. How could I put something so pointless in front of something so valuable?! I would gladly give my life for my husband, my son, or my daughter, and yet I risked their stability, happiness, and peace for something so ridiculous, stupid, and worthless. I am shocked at my selfishness, short-sightedness, and overall ability to hurt the ones I hold most dear. 

I do not feel like that person at all anymore. I don't even recognize her. But I know that is what I did, and it makes me cry as I think about it. 

I will NEVER be that person again. NEVER.


----------



## CantSitStill

We have seen our daughter as her boyfriend was in bootcamp get excited when she got a letter from him, we saw alot of tears also. We got close with his family. So when he came home it was all exciting because Calvin and I also like him..well he moved away and she is moving on with her life. She knows that if she was his priority he would move back here instead of begging her to leave everything and move there. She is over him and doesn't even want a boyfriend. It is hard to see your child's heart break. I'm just so glad she is a smart girl who has learned to move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

A parent is only as happy as their saddest child.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Yes we are!   Never say that again, Rookie!
> 
> We are positive about *EVERYTHING!* If you're not going to be positive then just pick up your toys and go play on another one of those more maudlin threads!
> 
> Okay, somebody stop me....... I'm in one of those aggravating kind of moods...... I, usually, aggravate B1 and the kids, I love aggravating my son-in-law..... easy target..... but, now, I've got you guys, as well!
> 
> _jus' kiddin'_


Positive=adjective, a positive attitude. Positive=adverb. We are not positive about anything. Positive as in certain.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rags said:


> Is it just me, or does that sound fishy?


Damn that auto correct!!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> *I wish CSS would gush about me like that!*
> Kidding..she has many times.
> I'm coming around and I think DD will too.
> It would haunt me if I never tried,I would never know what could have been.
> I have no regrets sticking it out and doing this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly, Calvin, I don't think I have ever seen another WW, anywhere, who is as humble, repentant, determined, and unapologetically in love with her spouse as CSS is with you. I think that almost every single one of her posts is filled with "gushing" about how much she is in love with you. No matter what kind of day you're having.... good or bad.... she firmly states that she will *never* give up on the two of you. That's a lot of _gushing!_


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Honestly, Calvin, I don't think I have ever seen another WW, anywhere, who is as humble, repentant, determined, and unapologetically in love with her spouse as CSS is with you. I think that almost every single one of her posts is filled with "gushing" about how much she is in love with you. No matter what kind of day you're having.... good or bad.... she firmly states that she will *never* give up on the two of you. That's a lot of _gushing!_


It wasnt easy but I think I'm over the hump.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> (((((((Hugs)))))) your children love you and I'm sure they forgive you. You are such a giving and thoughtful person EI, I'm sure your children know how sorry you are. None of us as perfect, we all have regrets and life can be hard at times, but that's the journey we are all on. You are only human and I'm sure your children can see how much you regret you action and are trying to make it right.
> 
> I'm sorry if my post has upset you. It wasn't my intention. Children are resilient. As long as you and B1 are OK then they will be too
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, your post didn't upset me, dg, my actions upset me. I was just reminded of how hurt my children were last summer. They're all grown up, now, but in some ways that made it even harder. They're old enough to completely understand what I did. Sometimes, when children are very young when things like this happen, they can be shielded, somewhat, from all of the ugliness that an affair really is. I still think that they should be told, at some point, because if they don't hear it from you then they will end up hearing some time in the future, perhaps at Thanksgiving or Christmas.... maybe from a cousin or an uncle and that would be the worst possible way for them to find out.

I have always prided myself on being a loving and devoted mother. I was before.... and I am, now. I know that I would give my life for any one of them, at any time, for any reason. But, somehow, during my affair, I found a way to compartmentalize what I was doing and convinced myself that I had everything under control. Ask me today how I did that and I couldn't give you an answer.... I don't know. Some people don't believe in "the fog." I do. Rational thinking is pushed aside and replaced with "foggy" thinking. It's the only way to make things work.

Thank you for your sweet words, daisygirl. I do think that my children love me, they tell me that they do and they show me that they love me with their actions. And, I do think that they have forgiven me. I just wish that they could love me because of who I am and not in spite of what I did. I know that I am more than "just a mom who had an affair," and I know that my relationship with them is filled with a whole lifetime of love and devotion, but this was so contrary to the way that we/I had raised them. It was contrary to my very core as a human being. I spend time everyday wondering how I could have done what I did. If I can't find the answers then I don't know how they possibly can. I don't want them to become bitter and cynical. I don't want them to have trust issues..... particularly my boys. If I am the yardstick that they use to measure their future relationships with women then what is acceptable to them has become much lower. I don't want that for them. The only thing that I can do from this day forward is be the best wife that I can be to B1 and the best mom that I can be to my children. I'm trying my best! 

Okay, enough of that! Time for me to get some bills paid!

Everyone have a wonderful day!

Take care,
~EI


----------



## EI

seasalt said:


> A parent is only as happy as their saddest child.


:iagree:


----------



## bobby5

To be forgiven is the third greatest gift. To be allowed continue on the right road in life and leave your mistakes behind is the second greatest. To be deserving of it and never hurt the forgiver again is the absolute greatest gift.
I just made that up. fk u shakespeare


----------



## joe kidd

I want to know when reconciliation ends and life begins.


----------



## CantSitStill

EI said:


> Honestly, Calvin, I don't think I have ever seen another WW, anywhere, who is as humble, repentant, determined, and unapologetically in love with her spouse as CSS is with you. I think that almost every single one of her posts is filled with "gushing" about how much she is in love with you. No matter what kind of day you're having.... good or bad.... she firmly states that she will *never* give up on the two of you. That's a lot of _gushing!_


You got that right
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> I want to know when reconciliation ends and life begins.


I'm starting to believe that reconciliation/life has to find a way to peacefully co-exist. But, I am hopeful that as more times passes that simply living our lives becomes a bigger part of our existence. But, what do I know...... you and Pidge are much further along in this process than B1 and I are.


----------



## bfree

joe kidd said:


> I want to know when reconciliation ends and life begins.


When you choose it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

joe kidd said:


> I want to know when reconciliation ends and life begins.


Maybe sooner, maybe later, maybe never. Reconciliation doesn't go away magically. It fades away gradually. At some point in time, I'm hoping that I will have no need for it, as the affair will become part of our past history, like all other milestones, good and bad. When your focus is on the future.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> You're very welcome..... Yes, boys are very deep and very sensitive at that age. They've already been conditioned by society to believe that "boys/men" don't cry so they often keep it inside even when their hearts are breaking. I think when boys suffer their first heartbreak they begin putting up those walls that we woman often complain about later in life. They toughen up a little and become a bit more cynical. It's all a part of them becoming men. Just make sure that he doesn't become bitter.
> 
> This is hurting my heart as I type. Every one of my boys has suffered from their first broken heart at the hands of a girlfriend. They've broken a heart or two, as well. But, I know that their biggest heartbreak, to date, was what I, their own mother, did to our family. I know that I did it, but it is beyond my comprehension, at this point, how I could have ever allowed myself to betray the very ones that I love the most in this world. Never again....... never again.


This is going to be a huge issue for us as well. I think all of the kids have forgiven her to a point, but our middle child is still very reserved towards her mother and there is still some resentment . My oldest and our youngest seem to be ecstatic about our R. 
Sweetie's father is the same way. She was very close to him , pre-affair, but he took the betrayal almost as bad as I did. His disappointment in his daughter was profound, and their relationship isn't what it was. In fact, I could use some advice on what I can do to help the others to heal as well.


----------



## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> I want to know when reconciliation ends and life begins.


When you forgive her, that's when
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

EI- fwiw I also believe 'the fog' exists. We have 3 children. My youngest is a girl. Her and H have a very special bond. They adore each other. When H was in his A he couldn't even see the pain he caused his daughter. He just shrugged it off and said 'she'll be fine'. He just couldn't see it. It absolutely broke my heart to see how much she missed her dad, she was like a different child, thankfully though they have been able to rebuild the bond and all is now well again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> When you forgive her, that's when
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And when he forgives himself too.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> And when he forgives himself too.


I think that is going to be a big one for me..... Forgiving myself. I think I have made progress in not "hating myself," but that is not quite the same as forgiving myself.


----------



## CantSitStill

EI said:


> I think that is going to be a big one for me..... Forgiving myself. I think I have made progress in not "hating myself," but that is not quite the same as forgiving myself.


Same here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Sometimes Ijust want to forget myself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Sometimes Ijust want to forget myself
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Won't work. We'll keep reminding you of you.


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> I think that is going to be a big one for me..... Forgiving myself. I think I have made progress in not "hating myself," but that is not quite the same as forgiving myself.


I want you to contemplate this for a moment.

Can you not forgive the act but forgive the person?


I'm in a very mellow thoughtful mood today.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> I think that is going to be a big one for me..... Forgiving myself. I think I have made progress in not "hating myself," but that is not quite the same as forgiving myself.


This is a massive issue with Sweetie. As it stands right now, if she could brand herself with the scarlett letter, she would gladly. In order that we can try to overcome her self-loathing, we are having a meeting with her therapist on Friday. Sweetie thinks I need re-assuring that her words were not meant and were the products of her resentment, plus she also thinks I need re-assuring that she will not cheat again. Actually I'm pretty sure that both things are past tense, and I think I am further along to forgiving her than she is. My purpose for the meeting is to help her with her self image. I have been trying to build her up since Christmas, with mixed results.


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Sometimes Ijust want to forget myself
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you forgot yourself, Calvin, who would root for "Da Bears"?


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> I want you to contemplate this for a moment.
> 
> *Can you not forgive the act but forgive the person?*
> 
> 
> I'm in a very mellow thoughtful mood today.


I _don't think_ that you can separate the two. I think that you must find a way to come to terms with both. I haven't figured it all out, yet. I think about it everyday. I don't dwell on it every moment and I definitely have a happiness and a hope within me that were not present for many years prior to my affair.

I cannot/will not accept that "this" is the price that had to be paid for my marriage to be reconciled. I don't simply mean reconciled from my infidelity, only. I mean reconciled in its entirety. Because our marriage, the old pre-A marriage, was irretrievably broken long before my affair began. My affair was the equivalent of pouring gasoline and lighting a match on a cold, dead corpse (the marriage was the cold, dead corpse... not B1,)....... It was the final assault on our marriage. Every day I wish that B1 and I could have come to the place where we are now..... before I had the affair..... without having to deal with the pain brought on by my betrayal of him, our children and myself. I wasn't trying to open his eyes, I wasn't trying to punish him for the years that I felt neglected and alone..... I was finished. It's why I ask him every day why he loves me.... now. I still struggle to understand. 

It's very complex..... all I know for sure is that he and I have the rest of our lives to figure it out. And, knowing that we will be doing that together makes me very happy..... happier than I have been in many years and happier than I ever imagined I could ever be again. But, I wonder if there will always be a sadness mixed in...... for both of us.


----------



## joe kidd

CantSitStill said:


> When you forgive her, that's when
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm.... forgive doesn't equal forget . Maybe that's what I want.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> Hmm.... forgive doesn't equal forget . Maybe that's what I want.


I don't think that truly forgetting is possible..... maybe, the best that we can hope for is acceptance and peace. Perhaps, we have to learn how to let go of the dream of the life we hoped for in order to fully appreciate the beauty of the life that we have.


----------



## CantSitStill

I know we all wish we could forget. Calvin's having a hard day also. I do not believe you guys are ready to forgive. Like there are things I have forgiven and I do not get angry about it anymore once I have forgiven. You will always be angry when you think about it because you have not forgiven. I am NOT saying it's easy and I am NOT telling you what to do. You will do what you choose to do. You will choose what makes you feel comfortable. You maybe aren't ready to feel comfortable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Think some good thoughts for DD, please. He's struggling. He texted that he is trying not to go downhill. I hate this for him, that it's so hard for him to keep his head above water sometimes. He has IC tonight, which I am so grateful for -that seems to help him quite a bit usually. But if you think of it, please say a prayer for him. Thank you.


----------



## joe kidd

I have forgiven her or I wouldn't be here. Things have always been black or white for me. Pidge has said my way of dealing with things has been " kill it or throw it away". Guess I'm tired of waiting to see when it will rear it's head. More of an annoyance then real pain these days.


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> Think some good thoughts for DD, please. He's struggling. He texted that he is trying not to go downhill. I hate this for him, that it's so hard for him to keep his head above water sometimes. He has IC tonight, which I am so grateful for -that seems to help him quite a bit usually. But if you think of it, *please say a prayer for him*. Thank you.


Will do.........


----------



## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> I have forgiven her or I wouldn't be here. Things have always been black or white for me. Pidge has said my way of dealing with things has been " kill it or throw it away". Guess I'm tired of waiting to see when it will rear it's head. More of an annoyance then real pain these days.


Ok you say you have forgiven her. You are still mad and festering. Has she forgiven you for things you have done that were unpleasant? Does she throw those things in your face? I mean if you are bringing up someone's wrong all the time then that does not look like forgiveness. Your anger is not gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> Think some good thoughts for DD, please. He's struggling. He texted that he is trying not to go downhill. I hate this for him, that it's so hard for him to keep his head above water sometimes. He has IC tonight, which I am so grateful for -that seems to help him quite a bit usually. But if you think of it, please say a prayer for him. Thank you.


I'll pray for him and all the BS' everywhere I go on TAM I'm reading threads where the BS' are having a bad day. Calvin has texted me that he's struggling today also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

CantSitStill said:


> Ok you say you have forgiven her. You are still mad and festering. Has she forgiven you for things you have done that were unpleasant? Does she throw those things in your face? I mean if you are bringing up someone's wrong all the time then that does not look like forgiveness. Your anger is not gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't throw it in her face. I get quiet. My demons so why fight? My anger is about why I have cope in the 1st place. Life is hard enough without this sh*t popping up. 

I can forgive her and have. However...forgiveness does not excuse the act. I can hate the act and not her. 

The how be alfa so your wife does not cheat thread kills me. Ask pidge . I was the biggest alfa ass that walked . 

Emotion is a new thing for me. Something I have to learn and control. The wall was easier, nothing in-nothing out. I have seen that's just an existence, not a life. 
I don't want to beat her up over the act, That's why some days I feel she would just be happier without me. 
Someone that's not a cold bastard.


----------



## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> I don't throw it in her face. I get quiet. My demons so why fight? My anger is about why I have cope in the 1st place. Life is hard enough without this sh*t popping up.
> 
> I can forgive her and have. However...forgiveness does not excuse the act. I can hate the act and not her.
> 
> The how be alfa so your wife does not cheat thread kills me. Ask pidge . I was the biggest alfa ass that walked .
> 
> Emotion is a new thing for me. Something I have to learn and control. The wall was easier, nothing in-nothing out. I have seen that's just an existence, not a life.
> I don't want to beat her up over the act, That's why some days I feel she would just be happier without me.
> Someone that's not a cold bastard.


I understand what you mean. I do. Calvin gets the same way. He loves me so much it hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

We all wish there was some magical way to make it all go away. All the pain, all the thoughts, all of the bad things that happened. We all wish we could just erase it all. It sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Joe's right about forgiving,forgeting is another thing.
When things come back to you or you find a small detail you did'nt know it hurts and it hurts bad.
No anger,no yelling,you just shut down and cant believe it happend to you.
To be in a postion where you are considered disposable and that your being thrown away for a real life POS hurts like hell.
Its not easy.All you can do is keep trying and make the best effort you can to get past the pain.
It will go away and it will come back,it gets less and less.
Will it go away forever? Who knows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> Think some good thoughts for DD, please. He's struggling. He texted that he is trying not to go downhill. I hate this for him, that it's so hard for him to keep his head above water sometimes. He has IC tonight, which I am so grateful for -that seems to help him quite a bit usually. But if you think of it, please say a prayer for him. Thank you.


Prayers coming your way CM.
I'm feeling a lot better,I'm actually learning how to "talk myself down" when I start feeling like crap and the A is haunting me.
Not easy but I'm getting decent at it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> I don't think that truly forgetting is possible..... maybe, the best that we can hope for is acceptance and peace. Perhaps, we have to learn how to let go of the dream of the life we hoped for in order to fully appreciate the beauty of the life that we have.


I thought this was very insight full when I read it. Thinking about it, I think its hard because what I hoped for, is what I thought I had before the betrayal.

And appreciate what I have? I know it's the right thing to do, I really do. Trouble is that my judgement are so broken, that I can't tell the difference between diamonds and dirt anymore.

Did I mention I am in a dark spot these days as well? Trying to take one day at a time, asking myself "How can I make the best of today, no matter what it may bring, and no matter what dark thoughts my mind will throw at me?"

Hang in there everybody.


----------



## calvin

God is everyone having a f'd up day or what?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

calvin said:


> God is everyone having a f'd up day or what?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep - W told me last night she's planning to meet OM next week.

This was my reply:

"I don't want you to go, and truly wish you didn't feel like you have to go. But, I love you. I want you to be happy. If going to meet Mr. XXXXXXXX makes you happy, then please go. Goodbye"

Key word:* "Goodbye"*


----------



## calvin

old timer said:


> Yep - W told me last night she's planning to meet OM next week.
> 
> This was my reply:
> 
> "I don't want you to go, and truly wish you didn't feel like you have to go. But, I love you. I want you to be happy. If going to meet Mr. XXXXXXXX makes you happy, then please go. Goodbye"
> 
> Key word:* "Goodbye"*


Yeah,I gave my wife the choice,she chose him,then later me,so...?????
Not sure what that makes me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

It's time for me to protect my own heart, calvin


----------



## calvin

old timer said:


> It's time for me to protect my own heart, calvin


I understand that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

DD, Calvin, Joe, CPACAN;

Sucks that you guys are having a tough day. We've all been there many times. And I can't tell you the number of times I had the same thought, "Why do I have to pay the price for my wife's infidielity?" It would make me so mad that I didn't step out of the marriage, and yet I had to be the one to try and forgive, forget and work through the pain. This one thought could imprison me in a very unhappy place for days, even weeks at a time.

I don't have a silver bullet to fix it. Over time, it really became about being the victim or being the survivor. I could sit around feeling sad for myself and my situation, but ultimately all it did was pull me further down. So I tried to dig deeper and think about why it made me so mad. 

I began to realize that part of the reason I still had so much anger/resentment was that I was blaming my wife for staining our marriage. For killing my idealistic vision of what a marriage was - through good and bad, all the way to the end. This was NOT what I had signed up for.

But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I was trying to view my life/our marriage through the lense of "a perfect marriage". The reality of our marriage (even before the affair) was far from perfect. As is the reality of any marriage. I realized that if I wanted any chance of being happy, I needed to come to grips with reality, vs ideality. 

In the same way my wife was unhappy in the months leading up to the affair. She felt like our marriage should be more. That a wife should always be full of butterflies around her husband. That the romance and passion never ebs and flows. She was judging our marriage based on what the perfect marriage was in her head. This is the basis of the all too familiar "I love you, but I'm not in love with you."

Life is not perfect. We must accept that, and then begin to evaluate our lives based on reality. Is my marriage a perfect, storybook marriage? Nope. But does my chipped marriage still make me happy, yup. 

Happiness cannot be achieved outside of reality. Once you come to accept that reality is flawed, but is till far more beautiful than any fairytale, I think you reach a sense of enlightenment. 

I'm not always there, but I am able to get myself back there when I deviate from the path. For what it's worth . . .


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> DD, Calvin, Joe, CPACAN;
> 
> Sucks that you guys are having a tough day. We've all been there many times. And I can't tell you the number of times I had the same thought, "Why do I have to pay the price for my wife's infidielity?" It would make me so mad that I didn't step out of the marriage, and yet I had to be the one to try and forgive, forget and work through the pain. This one thought could imprison me in a very unhappy place for days, even weeks at a time.
> 
> I don't have a silver bullet to fix it. Over time, it really became about being the victim or being the survivor. I could sit around feeling sad for myself and my situation, but ultimately all it did was pull me further down. So I tried to dig deeper and think about why it made me so mad.
> 
> I began to realize that part of the reason I still had so much anger/resentment was that I was blaming my wife for staining our marriage. For killing my idealistic vision of what a marriage was - through good and bad, all the way to the end. This was NOT what I had signed up for.
> 
> But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I was trying to view my life/our marriage through the lense of "a perfect marriage". The reality of our marriage (even before the affair) was farm from perfect. As is the reality of any marriage. I realized that if I wanted any chance of being happy, I needed to come to grips with reality, vs ideality.
> 
> In the same way my wife was unhappy in the months leading up to the affair. She felt like our marriage should be more. That a wife should always be full of butterflies around her husband. That the romance and passion never ebs and flows. She was judging our marriage based on what the perfect marriage was in her head. This is the basis of the all too familiar "I love you, but I'm not in love with you."
> 
> Life is not perfect. We must accept that, and then begin to evaluate our lives based on reality. Is my marriage a perfect, storybook marriage? Nope. But does my chipped marriage still make me happy, yup.
> 
> Happiness cannot be achieved outside of reality. Once you come to accept that reality is flawed, but is till far more beautiful than any fairytale, I think you reach a sense of enlightenment.
> 
> I'm not always there, but I am able to get myself back there when I deviate from the path. For what it's worth . . .


These are wonderful thoughts. My heart is with everyone who is hurting today. Take care of each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

On a side note to this miserable, dreary, cold day in January..... B1 is in class at work all week so he has not had any time to post. He is not hand-cuffed and tied to the bed! Really.... he isn't! 

I hate that we're all having such a  day.


----------



## joe kidd

Not really having a bad day. Just a little self reflection.


----------



## calvin

Excellent post NH2MR?
What you said is where I'm trying to get to.
I've had more success lately.
"Getting back on the path" I like that.
Its a lot better than me trying to talk myself down.
Back on the path....good deal.
I never thought of it like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

joe kidd said:


> Not really having a bad day. Just a little self reflection.


I'm in a bit of a melencholy mood as well. I heard that many people have problems right around this time every year because January is the month with the least amount of sunlight.


----------



## calvin

I've heard that,messed up day but its getting better now that I'm home.
I'm back on the "path".

I really like that nerver.
Hope you feel better bfree


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> In fact, I could use some advice on what I can do to help the others to heal as well.


They have their own relationship, different from the one you have with her. Daugthers and Dads, sons and Moms... disapointments are a huge deal, they really cut deep. I fear the day my oldest ask openly about what happened, she "knows" but she doesn't know.
What do you can do? show him. Just be genuine. Show him you are forgiving her, that people screws up but they regret, reject their choices and change, they distance themselves from that person. You wife toke as a personal mission to redeem herself after realizing she was as flawed as any other human being can be. She chose to change from the very beggining, two years later she still doesn't let herself off the hook and she's happy to have the chance to make amends. That's what defines her, that's who she is, not a poor choice she made. If you can believe it I think it will help him.

Glad to hear the mindset you have towards joint session with her IC.


----------



## CantSitStill

Man I'm not real sure what Calvin told our kids but I do know he had to tell them I left the home for another man. He talked with them when I came back home privately because I was an emotional wreck that day. I talked to my 19yr old some told her I was talking to the OM and met up with him but we did not have sex. She didn't really ask many questions so we just don't talk about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Yeah,I gave my wife the choice,she chose him,then later me,so...?????
> Not sure what that makes me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It makes you the winner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> It makes you the winner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess that does M&M,I guess it really does.
The POS was always out for himself,still is.
Look at him now.He still doesnt get why his life is in the toilet or why he's hated.
No one touches or messes with my girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> I guess that does M&M,I guess it really does.
> The POS was always out for himself,still is.
> Look at him now.He still doesnt get why his life is in the toilet or why he's hated.
> *No one touches or messes with my girl.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like
Like
Like
Like
Like
Like
Like

Hey I found a way to like something more than once.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Like
> Like
> Like
> Like
> Like
> Like
> Like
> 
> Hey I found a way to like something more than once.


That gave me a good laugh,thanks man!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> Think some good thoughts for DD, please. He's struggling. He texted that he is trying not to go downhill. I hate this for him, that it's so hard for him to keep his head above water sometimes. He has IC tonight, which I am so grateful for -that seems to help him quite a bit usually. But if you think of it, please say a prayer for him. Thank you.


cm, dd, and all of us who had a not-so-great day today -- thinking of you tonight.

like the other BSs, i feel the flares of anger... sometimes they are triggered by things that happen and sometimes i seem to remind myself to be angry. i did that tonight as i walked home from work... for no particular reason, my mind drifted to a moment where my H lied right to my face about where he had been that afternoon. 

i'm with you, EI, in that acceptance of what we've all been through is what i'm shooting for. i don't think i can forget, but i hope i can be accepting and more peaceful with it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Let's all just pray for eachother tonight and see how tomorrow goes. If we all didn't love our spouses so much we wouldn't be here. If we didn't love our spouses so much we wouldn't be feeling this pain. It hurts but I know Calvin's not gonna give up and I know I won't. I'm all in..how about you all? Are you in?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bobka, phone home....... It wouldn't hurt Dig to check-in every now and again, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

help me..she has me handcuffed to bed for 2 days now...oh God here she comes gotta hide this phone...oh no..she's coming and she has a whip now and ... and .. a Batman outfit nooooooo
...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Ooooooookaaaaaay, I'm in........ But, if B1 doesn't post a long gushy comment about how much he loves me, very soon, then I am going to throw a hissy fit. He does get credit for going back out tonight in the cold, dark, icy weather because I was craving Cherry Garcia Ice Cream and hot sauce......not together...... and, NO, don't even ask that question because I am already a grandmother. I am a very young grandmother, LOL, but still, there is no particular reason that B1 and the boys have had to make a special late night trip out to the grocery/DQ the last 3 nights in a row for ice cream!

Annnnnnnd............ it's Cat Woman, B1,.... I wear Cat Woman..... YOU wear Batman!

;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Hang on B1,I'm coming with a hostage negotiating team righ now.
What does EI want?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Hang on B1,I'm coming with a hostage negotiating team righ now.
> What does EI want?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ice cream..she wants ice cream and and.... 
hot sauce. Hurry these cuffs are killing me...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> I have forgiven her or I wouldn't be here. Things have always been black or white for me. Pidge has said my way of dealing with things has been " kill it or throw it away". Guess I'm tired of waiting to see when it will rear it's head. More of an annoyance then real pain these days.


Funny how my being a BPD'er.....black/white thinking is supposed to be a hallmark trait. Joe as he stated is very much like that. 

I think some people either seem to forget or just don't know but, Joe had his little revenge affair. I honestly do not even think about it for the most part until we fight and he says something about my A. While some people may think I deserved what he did, our kids definitely didn't. Obviously what I did was horrible enough but, the backlash has left it's mark on our 12yr old. I feel she will be in therapy forever due to both of our stupid, selfish choices.

To be honest, I'm actually feeling kinda pissed right now. He doesn't share this with me, I have to read it on here. I don't even really come on this forum much anymore and when I do, I rarely post.


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> ice cream..she wants ice cream and and....
> hot sauce. Hurry these cuffs are killing me...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You just need some hot fudge,your ok.
Lucky bastard. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

pidge n Joe..so sorry your daughter is having a hard time. You both have been through hell and back. I hope you can beat this. I'm sure pulling for you both. Prayers your way and special prayers for your daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> Funny how my being a BPD'er.....black/white thinking is supposed to be a hallmark trait. Joe as he stated is very much like that.
> 
> I think some people either seem to forget or just don't know but, Joe had his little revenge affair. I honestly do not even think about it for the most part until we fight and he says something about my A. While some people may think I deserved what he did, our kids definitely didn't. Obviously what I did was horrible enough but, the backlash has left it's mark on our 12yr old. I feel she will be in therapy forever due to both of our stupid, selfish choices.
> 
> To be honest, I'm actually feeling kinda pissed right now. He doesn't share this with me, I have to read it on here. I don't even really come on this forum much anymore and when I do, I rarely post.


Well that's what I meant when I was talking about forgiveness. I'm sure there are alot of hurts between both of you and you can't truly heal until you forgive eachother. I know I have forgiven things and promised Calvin that I wouldn't bring those things up. I understand infidelity isn't as easy to forgive tho. But anyway you're right. You weren't the only one in your relationship that had an A.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Funny how my being a BPD'er.....black/white thinking is supposed to be a hallmark trait. Joe as he stated is very much like that.
> 
> I think some people either seem to forget or just don't know but, Joe had his little revenge affair. I honestly do not even think about it for the most part until we fight and he says something about my A. While some people may think I deserved what he did, our kids definitely didn't. Obviously what I did was horrible enough but, the backlash has left it's mark on our 12yr old. I feel she will be in therapy forever due to both of our stupid, selfish choices.
> 
> To be honest, I'm actually feeling kinda pissed right now. He doesn't share this with me, I have to read it on here. I don't even really come on this forum much anymore and when I do, I rarely post.


You know what Pidge? Youre right.I mean that.
The revenge A just did more damage.I give you a lot of credit for being a lady and sticking by joe.
It cant be thrown in you face after two years.
joe triggering I understand.I bet you do also trigger.
Pidge is like CSS in a way,she's sorry as hell and is still there because she cares about joe.
I'm working my ass off on letting this crap go,so has CSS,we have to meet in the middle,or we are doomed.
Pidge has earned that chance and so has joe.
So have I,and CSS,B1,EI,bobka,CM,OT and many others.
Lets not fvck this up people.
I have a feeling we dont have too many shots at this.
I can only speak for myself.
I'm hopeful for all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I'm working my ass off on letting this crap go,so has CSS,we have to meet in the middle,or we are doomed.
> Pidge has earned that chance and so has joe.
> So have I,and CSS,B1,EI,bobka,CM,OT and many others.
> Lets not fvck this up people.
> I have a feeling we dont have too many shots at this.
> I can only speak for myself.
> I'm hopeful for all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, if I played team sports, I'd want you on my team. You really are a team player and you are so good about rallying the troops!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Calvin, if I played team sports, I'd want you on my team. You really are a team player and you are so good about rallying the troops!


I dont know about that.
Tired,night all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> To be honest, I'm actually feeling kinda pissed right now. He doesn't share this with me, I have to read it on here. I don't even really come on this forum much anymore and when I do, I rarely post.


To be honest, maybe you should vent more. I know that BPD'ers supposedly see things as black/white, but you are human, you have feelings and you hurt, too. Feelings aren't black or white.... they're what they are. 

I sent you a pm (actually, I sent it from my iPhone and I think I may have sent it 3 or 4 times..... sorry.)

My heart goes out to you, Joe and your kids. I am soooooo sorry to hear that your daughter is struggling right now. The guilt that I feel over hurting and disappointing my children is one of the worst things in all of this mess. I'll add your baby girl to my prayer list. I remember Calvin saying the other day that his list was getting bigger and bigger.

Please feel free to pm me if you just need to vent..... I talk a lot, but I can listen, too.

~EI


----------



## Rookie4

MattMatt said:


> It makes you the winner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The winner of what? A lying , deceiving, unfaithful spouse? Doesn't sound like much of a prize to me. does it to you? Yes, my ex chose me over Brad, when push came to shove, but this was after she chose Brad to cheat with. So now am I'm supposed to be happy that she finally chose me, and ended the affair that should not have been , in the first place? Sometimes I think we BS's are being asked for too much, really I do. We are asked to forgive the unforgivable, to take back someone who has PROVEN unworthy. To trust the untrustworthy. To love again, someone who threw our love in the gutter, the first time. Sometimes it really , really is too much.


----------



## Rookie4

Let me try to explain in my dumbass way. I don't want my old marriage back and I don't want my old wife back. If that is what I wanted , I could have done that 2 years ago, let her come home, and tried to get over it. Would she have been as remorseful as she is, if I had taken her back right after D-day? I don't know and neither does she. My old wife isn't a prize I would want to have. My new Sweetie is proving by her actions that she is a prize worth having, worth forgiving and worth taking a chance on.


----------



## Rookie4

See, this is what I mean. Was I wrong to divorce her and not give her the chance to make things right? Or. If I had not divorced her, would she be as remorseful and proactive as she is now? All I can say for sure is that she is NOW the woman I want


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## Rags

I agree Rookie.

I think, what you're after here is not really Reconcilliation - although I don't have a better word for it.

I think it's the construction of a new relationship, understanding that your spouse is someone who has made mistakes in the past, who has learned and grown and changed - and that this is _not the same person who broke your heart before_.

So, it's not forgive _this_ person - this person isn't the one who betrayed you. That was someone else, who has gone, and whilst the painful memories of what they did to you affect your behaviour, and make it hard to trust, this new person understands that, and is willing (and happy) to give you the time you need to do so.

And this new person, having come to realise how flawed they were, has been shocked and horrified - and has become a different person who has learned from their past mistakes, and desperately wants never to do anything to awful ever again. And is extremely unlikely too, as they know what it costs (to them, and others) and that it's is in no way worth it. Because of this learning experience, they're much less likely to cheat than someone who never has.

In no way am I minimizing the hurt, the effort required, or the difficulties faced. But I'm trying to see it in the only way I can, if it could ever work for me.

Does that make any sense?


----------



## Rookie4

Rags, you said it better than I did. Honestly speaking, I will NEVER accept any kind of return to the old marriage and the old way of doing things. We both realize that isn't going to happen. What we BOTH want is something new and better. For Christmas she gave me a new cigar lighter with a phoenix on it. To symbolize the new arising from the ashes of the old.


----------



## margrace

EI said:


> bobka, phone home....... It wouldn't hurt Dig to check-in every now and again, either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i was wondering about these two too. HSE, i see that you are around from your "likes".... how are things going?


----------



## margrace

calvin said:


> You know what Pidge? Youre right.I mean that.
> The revenge A just did more damage.I give you a lot of credit for being a lady and sticking by joe.
> It cant be thrown in you face after two years.
> joe triggering I understand.I bet you do also trigger.
> Pidge is like CSS in a way,she's sorry as hell and is still there because she cares about joe.
> I'm working my ass off on letting this crap go,so has CSS,we have to meet in the middle,or we are doomed.
> Pidge has earned that chance and so has joe.
> So have I,and CSS,B1,EI,bobka,CM,OT and many others.
> Lets not fvck this up people.
> I have a feeling we dont have too many shots at this.
> I can only speak for myself.
> I'm hopeful for all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## cpacan

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> DD, Calvin, Joe, CPACAN;
> 
> Sucks that you guys are having a tough day. We've all been there many times. And I can't tell you the number of times I had the same thought, "Why do I have to pay the price for my wife's infidielity?" It would make me so mad that I didn't step out of the marriage, and yet I had to be the one to try and forgive, forget and work through the pain. This one thought could imprison me in a very unhappy place for days, even weeks at a time.
> 
> I don't have a silver bullet to fix it. Over time, it really became about being the victim or being the survivor. I could sit around feeling sad for myself and my situation, but ultimately all it did was pull me further down. So I tried to dig deeper and think about why it made me so mad.
> 
> I began to realize that part of the reason I still had so much anger/resentment was that I was blaming my wife for staining our marriage. For killing my idealistic vision of what a marriage was - through good and bad, all the way to the end. This was NOT what I had signed up for.
> 
> But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I was trying to view my life/our marriage through the lense of "a perfect marriage". The reality of our marriage (even before the affair) was far from perfect. As is the reality of any marriage. I realized that if I wanted any chance of being happy, I needed to come to grips with reality, vs ideality.
> 
> In the same way my wife was unhappy in the months leading up to the affair. She felt like our marriage should be more. That a wife should always be full of butterflies around her husband. That the romance and passion never ebs and flows. She was judging our marriage based on what the perfect marriage was in her head. This is the basis of the all too familiar "I love you, but I'm not in love with you."
> 
> Life is not perfect. We must accept that, and then begin to evaluate our lives based on reality. Is my marriage a perfect, storybook marriage? Nope. But does my chipped marriage still make me happy, yup.
> 
> Happiness cannot be achieved outside of reality. Once you come to accept that reality is flawed, but is till far more beautiful than any fairytale, I think you reach a sense of enlightenment.
> 
> I'm not always there, but I am able to get myself back there when I deviate from the path. For what it's worth . . .


Just wanted to thank you for this, a very powerfull post that explains what it's all about. This is actually what I try to keep in focus on. Some times it's easier than other times, though, but I usually manage to drag myself back to the path (love the expression).

I do feel the unfairness in the aftermath from time to time, but I can let that one go now, 'cause I know now that my wife just isn't mentally capable of being the recovery engine.

What I do struggle with the most, is that wife and I obviously don't share the vision of what perfect looks like. I don't think she ever did get rid of those rose colored glasses.

Well, just wanted to say that you made me rethink which is good. Thanks.


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## calvin

Morning all,praying for you Pidge and joe,yep that list is getting longer but thats ok.
Rookie,I want a mix of my old marriage with a lot of the new thrown in also.
CSS never got physical with the ex-con POS,she never has jumped into the sack quickly.
When we were dating it took forever for us to make love,so thats one thing I got going for me.
When she started her A she was acting crazy so yes,I do want the old fun loving girl back that I had.
She has been hit on in the past and she always made it clear she was happily married,she sure was'nt herself when she looked up this loser.
I'm feeling good today and I'm going to stay on that path with CSS.
She belongs with me.
Hope everyone has a good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> But does my chipped marriage still make me happy, yup.


Funny thought came to me when I read this: My two favorite coffee mugs are chipped, but they are the perfect size and shape, and I will not drink from other mugs. I've had these mugs for probably 17 years (about the length of my marriage - hmm...), and they are what I drink my daily coffee from. 

I do not know what would happen to me if someone dropped and broke them. I want my chipped mugs.


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## bfree

calvin said:


> You know what Pidge? Youre right.I mean that.
> The revenge A just did more damage.I give you a lot of credit for being a lady and sticking by joe.
> It cant be thrown in you face after two years.
> joe triggering I understand.I bet you do also trigger.
> Pidge is like CSS in a way,she's sorry as hell and is still there because she cares about joe.
> I'm working my ass off on letting this crap go,so has CSS,we have to meet in the middle,or we are doomed.
> Pidge has earned that chance and so has joe.
> So have I,and CSS,B1,EI,bobka,CM,OT and many others.
> Lets not fvck this up people.
> I have a feeling we dont have too many shots at this.
> I can only speak for myself.
> I'm hopeful for all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, calvin. That was awesome. Maybe if you had addressed the Bears before every game they would have won more often. I'm serious, you got this!


----------



## CantSitStill

let's nickname him Coach Calvin
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

pidge70 said:


> Funny how my being a BPD'er.....black/white thinking is supposed to be a hallmark trait. Joe as he stated is very much like that.
> 
> Funny, my first thought when I read this from Joe was, "do we have TWO BPDers here?"
> 
> I think some people either seem to forget or just don't know but, Joe had his little revenge affair. I honestly do not even think about it for the most part until we fight and he says something about my A. While some people may think I deserved what he did, our kids definitely didn't. Obviously what I did was horrible enough but, the backlash has left it's mark on our 12yr old. I feel she will be in therapy forever due to both of our stupid, selfish choices.
> 
> To be honest, I'm actually feeling kinda pissed right now. He doesn't share this with me, I have to read it on here. I don't even really come on this forum much anymore and when I do, I rarely post.


I don't know where you guys are on the forgiveness thing, but it seems as though that's where you need to go. You don't need me to tell you about the benefits here - I'm sure you've read enough and gained enough wisdom from personal experience, but it is a freeing thing, and maybe that's the step you guys need to get to, or at least work on. 

I know I'm being "Captain Obvious" here...


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> See, this is what I mean. Was I wrong to divorce her and not give her the chance to make things right? Or. If I had not divorced her, would she be as remorseful and proactive as she is now? All I can say for sure is that she is NOW the woman I want


Rookie,

Every case is different and I think you did exactly the right thing in your case. You got to date other women and I know from experience how much of an ego boost it is to have hot women falling all over you. And the last two years your ex had the motivation and the alone time to really work on herself and her issues. As you said she is now the women that you can love and you by virtue of your last two years experience are a man who can lead the relationship without hesitation. Its perfect.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Lets not fvck this up people.
> I have a feeling we dont have too many shots at this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Wow, calvin. That was awesome. Maybe if you had addressed the Bears before every game they would have won more often. I'm serious, you got this!


I'm getting there,for awhile I felt I had to protect myself,be prepared that it would'nt work.
I dont feel that way anymore.
I KNOW that jackass texting me and calling me for eight months set things back a lot with CSS.
I wish he would quit running when I do see him.
I'd like to take him deer hunting with me and work things out. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Funny thought came to me when I read this: My two favorite coffee mugs are chipped, but they are the perfect size and shape, and I will not drink from other mugs. I've had these mugs for probably 17 years (about the length of my marriage - hmm...), and they are what I drink my daily coffee from.
> 
> I do not know what would happen to me if someone dropped and broke them. I want my chipped mugs.


You would collect all the pieces and glue the mugs back together. If you can find enough of the pieces hopefully your mug will hold liquid. If you use the right glue and its strong enough the pieces will hold and the glue will bind and help waterproof the mugs. Nice metaphor for a reconciled marriage isn't it?


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## bfree

calvin said:


> I'm getting there,for awhile I felt I had to protect myself,be prepared that it would'nt work.
> I dont feel that way anymore.
> I KNOW that jackass texting me and calling me for eight months set things back a lot with CSS.
> I wish he would quit running when I do see him.
> *I'd like to take him deer hunting with me and work things out. *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe you and Decimated can share the cost of a fur coat for his and your antagonists to wear.


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## ChangingMe

God, I love my husband. He is trying SO hard, and I see it more now than I have in the past several months. In the past, it's been black or white: when he's in a good space, he loves me & everything is going to work out; when he's in a bad space, then screw me, I'm the devil & he hates me. 

What I'm seeing now is that, even when he's struggling, he is trying SO hard to fight it and work through it without giving into the anger and awful thoughts. Not that he always succeeds, but I see the effort.

He told me he wasn't having a good day yesterday, but he had IC that afternoon. When he came home, he told me he had asked his sister if she could watch our kids for a bit so we could go out, but she was busy. I was surprised that he had tried to arrange that, but it made me feel good. I told him that his mom had said to me that we were not asking her to babysit enough, so I mentioned that. He immediately went and called her, and I overheard him saying to her, "I went to counseling today, and that always helps me get in a better place, so I want to capitalize on that." So she drove over and he and I went out for a couple drinks. We talked about his counseling and what he's been going through, and then when we got home, we hung out some more. It was very nice. 

And then, this morning, when he left for work, he came up to me, gave me a hug, kissed my forehead and told me bye. And it's so sad how thrilled that makes me, because when he is in a bad space he completely ignores me when he leaves, and it honestly makes me feel like I don't matter or even exist. Just him acknowledging me this morning is enough to make me have a good day. 

I hope everyone else has a better day today as well.


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## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> God, I love my husband. He is trying SO hard, and I see it more now than I have in the past several months. In the past, it's been black or white: when he's in a good space, he loves me & everything is going to work out; when he's in a bad space, then screw me, I'm the devil & he hates me.
> 
> What I'm seeing now is that, even when he's struggling, he is trying SO hard to fight it and work through it without giving into the anger and awful thoughts. Not that he always succeeds, but I see the effort.
> 
> He told me he wasn't having a good day yesterday, but he had IC that afternoon. When he came home, he told me he had asked his sister if she could watch our kids for a bit so we could go out, but she was busy. I was surprised that he had tried to arrange that, but it made me feel good. I told him that his mom had said to me that we were not asking her to babysit enough, so I mentioned that. He immediately went and called her, and I overheard him saying to her, "I went to counseling today, and that always helps me get in a better place, so I want to capitalize on that." So she drove over and he and I went out for a couple drinks. We talked about his counseling and what he's been going through, and then when we got home, we hung out some more. It was very nice.
> 
> And then, this morning, when he left for work, he came up to me, gave me a hug, kissed my forehead and told me bye. And it's so sad how thrilled that makes me, because when he is in a bad space he completely ignores me when he leaves, and it honestly makes me feel like I don't matter or even exist. Just him acknowledging me this morning is enough to make me have a good day.
> 
> I hope everyone else has a better day today as well.


Very encouraging CM,I'm glad to hear that.
It seemed like evryone was having a bad day yesterday
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> I'm getting there,for awhile I felt I had to protect myself,be prepared that it would'nt work.
> I dont feel that way anymore.
> I KNOW that jackass texting me and calling me for eight months set things back a lot with CSS.
> I wish he would quit running when I do see him.
> I'd like to take him deer hunting with me and work things out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Naaahhhh

Pray that keeps running.
Running at night.

And that you have the tools in your garage to fix the dent in your fender....


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Naaahhhh
> 
> Pray that keeps running.
> Running at night.
> 
> And that you have the tools in your garage to fix the dent in your fender....


Now thats funny.
There's something wrong with that idiot,who in their right mind would taunt you,challenge you to fights and take a chance that I might be a wife beater by saying all those bs lies about CSS.
Then run like a scared little b!tch when I did see him. I'll never get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I love when Calvin kisses my forehead before he leaves for work in the morning whille im in bed sleeping
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

God, in my wildest dreams right now I am praying for the opportunity to have the good and bad days that you all are going through. I spent the morning sleeping in with my toddler (he slept until almost 9!!!!!) and I've just been crying ever since at everything my selfishness and stupidity is costing Matt and I. He feels like a divirce is his only option, that I can't "suck another' man's c0ck" and still get to be his wife. He's totally right and fair to feel that way, and I just wish I'd never been so stupid to put us in this place. Please keep Matt in your thoughts as he sstruggles with necessary consequences and what he needs/wants from me and what that means for my amazing, loving son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> God, in my wildest dreams right now I am praying for the opportunity to have the good and bad days that you all are going through. I spent the morning sleeping in with my toddler (he slept until almost 9!!!!!) and I've just been crying ever since at everything my selfishness and stupidity is costing Matt and I. He feels like a divirce is his only option, that I can't "suck another' man's c0ck" and still get to be his wife. He's totally right and fair to feel that way, and I just wish I'd never been so stupid to put us in this place. Please keep Matt in your thoughts as he sstruggles with necessary consequences and what he needs/wants from me and what that means for my amazing, loving son.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. M.,

My heart goes out to you, Matt and your son. Reconciliation, especially after infidelity, has got to, unarguably, be one of the most difficult challenges that life has to offer up. Infidelity isn't supposed to happen. Even the death of a parent or sibling, while devastating, is something that we are "pre-programmed" to endure, at some point, in our lives. And, while the death of a spouse in a happy, healthy, loving marriage must be devastating, the heartache is a result of the loss of companionship with your love, your partner, your spouse. Not because they willingly chose to lie, deceive and betray you. With infidelity, you have not only lost your partner (as you thought you knew them,) but, it is by there own choices that you have been left in such gut wrenching pain.

It has only been a matter of weeks since your D-Day. I would compare your marriage right now to a patient in ICU..... It's critical and it could go either way. That's very stressful to those in the midst of that crises. In the case of infidelity, the stress is on the BS, the WS, their children, and often extends to many other close friends and family members. If you are both able to weather the first few months and reach the point of choosing to make an honest attempt to reconcile then, perhaps, that status might be upgraded to "critical but stable"..... it can still go either way and is subject to massive changes without notice, but those involved can begin to hope for a more positive outcome.

I kind of think that is where a few of us, who are posting on this thread, are right now. Inching our way towards being "stable," all while hoping and praying for a full recovery. It's hard, soooooooo hard, and I don't envy where you are, at all, at this stage, Mrs. M. But, whether your marriage moves forward and, eventually, reconciles or whether it ends in divorce, in order for you to be the healthiest, happiest, most successful, and most well adjusted mother and individual you can be, you are going to have to reconcile all of this within yourself.

It takes times, lots of self-reflection, complete honesty with your spouse, and a little trickier one is that it takes complete honesty with yourself. That one might take even longer because sometimes we really don't know all of the reasons that we do the things we do until we truly think about them. With infidelity, I would say that WS's have made a choice NOT to think, too deeply, about what we're doing while we're doing it, otherwise we would likely not be able to continue doing it.

I'm thinking deeply today. I'm seeking happiness. For so long, I've been seeking the happiness that seems to have escaped me for many years, now. I took a terrible wrong turn on the road to happiness and got so far away from where I was trying to go. The only way back is one step at a time. No going over, under or around..... only through it. No shortcuts, either. With patience, determination and favorable conditions, maybe I'll get there, eventually. I hope that we all find our happiness. The most valuable lesson that I've learned so far in this journey is that if my "happiness" comes at the expense of those whom I love the most, then it wasn't really happiness, at all. It was most likely like an oasis in the dessert than turned out to be a mirage.

I hope that you and Matt, both, find your happiness. Hopefully, if it is meant to be, it will be together.

Take care,
~EI


----------



## calvin

Sorry Mrs.M
I wanted a D right off the bat,then decided to R.
Then I flipped around all over the place,I had to do what jh52 said,one day at a time.
Til I'm finally at the oint where I do NOT want a D,I'll still trigger here and there but I think I'm through the rough crap.
I hope Matt comes around and finds it in his heart to give you a chance to prove yourself.
Be praying for you Mrs.M
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> Let's all just pray for eachother tonight and see how tomorrow goes. If we all didn't love our spouses so much we wouldn't be here. If we didn't love our spouses so much we wouldn't be feeling this pain. It hurts but I know Calvin's not gonna give up and I know I won't. I'm all in..how about you all? Are you in?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

Prayers already said!:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

pidge70 said:


> Funny how my being a BPD'er.....black/white thinking is supposed to be a hallmark trait. Joe as he stated is very much like that.
> 
> I think some people either seem to forget or just don't know but, Joe had his little revenge affair. I honestly do not even think about it for the most part until we fight and he says something about my A. While some people may think I deserved what he did, our kids definitely didn't. Obviously what I did was horrible enough but, the backlash has left it's mark on our 12yr old. I feel she will be in therapy forever due to both of our stupid, selfish choices.
> 
> To be honest, I'm actually feeling kinda pissed right now. He doesn't share this with me, I have to read it on here. I don't even really come on this forum much anymore and when I do, *I rarely post.*


Pidge, I am so glad you have posted in reply to some of my posts. You, even just with some of your likes, have helped me more than you can ever, ever know. Thank you.


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Pidge, I am so glad you have posted in reply to some of my posts. You, even just with some of your likes, have helped me more than you can ever, ever know. Thank you.


She's a sweet girl,Pidge is alright.
She stuck up for me when I was being treated like a WS.
CSS was full of remorse and she really wanted to stay with me and I think people felt sorry for her and I was the bad guy for not forgiving right away.
Hell,I feel bad for a WS here who is doing all they can and the BS just isnt over it yet.
I feel bad for joe and Pidge.
Its been two years joe,it still hurts I know but you need to start letting go and get back on the path.
Pidge is one of those rare ones who deserves it.
Badblood could be a jerk but he saw how bad she felt.
Joe your RA did a lot of damage and you have said you regret it.
We all have a shot here,lets not fvck it up please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> She's a sweet girl,Pidge is alright.
> She stuck up for me when I was being treated like a WS.
> CSS was full of remorse and she really wanted to stay with me and I think people felt sorry for her and I was the bad guy for not forgiving right away.
> Hell,I feel bad for a WS here who is doing all they can and the BS just isnt over it yet.
> I feel bad for joe and Pidge.
> Its been two years joe,it still hurts I know but you need to start letting go and get back on the path.
> Pidge is one of those rare ones who deserves it.
> Badblood could be a jerk but he saw how bad she felt.
> Joe your RA did a lot of damage and you have said you regret it.
> We all have a shot here,lets not fvck it up please.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah, yes. My wife's affair hurt me, yes it did.

But my revenge affair, my stupid idiotic revenge affair? *That *hurt me worse than my wife's affair. I ended up taking Seroxat, after my affair, so effectively did I manage to f**k my own psyche up.

My wife had her affair because she has different thought processes. It's not something she could help. But me? I had no excuse to have my affair. Not really.


----------



## calvin

thats one thing about your wifes A M&M,her thought process...
It makes me wonder if she thought it was just logical to her and something she needed to see for herself.
I mean no offense my friend but with her being an aspie,it just makes me wonder if she thought it was something she should see for herself......ok I'm being an idiot.
You had the mind to get out before it went too far M&M.
Good for you.
Youre a good dude and you have a great wife.
god bless you both.


----------



## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> Let's all just pray for eachother tonight and see how tomorrow goes. If we all didn't love our spouses so much we wouldn't be here. If we didn't love our spouses so much we wouldn't be feeling this pain. It hurts but I know Calvin's not gonna give up and I know I won't. I'm all in..how about you all? Are you in?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"All in?" Nope, never happen. If there is one thing this whole sorry mess has taught me, it is to put no credence in words like " trust, faith, belief, or promise,". I am interested in words like "actions, fact, proof, and evidence". The first 4 words are why we are in this mess, the last 4 will get us out of it.


----------



## Rookie4

In reference to the above post, let me say this about Sweetie. She not only talks the talk, she walks the walk. Everything she says she will do, she does and gives me proof of it.
She told me that she was the one who ended the affair, then gave me all of her passwords and let me read the e-mails Brad sent her, begging her to come back to him. She showed me a copy of the complaint she filed against him with her supervisors, for harrassing her. I can see all of her phone bills for the last two years if I want to. I am meeting her therapist this week and have already talked to her on the phone. She has never missed a meeting. When we divorced, she took only her property. She has admitted the affair to everybody we know and takes ALL not just part of the blame for it. It seems to me that this is a no-brainer, she is the real deal, now, and I am proud to have her as mine. And make no mistake, She IS mine and nobody elses.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> In reference to the above post, let me say this about Sweetie. She not only talks the talk, she walks the walk. Everything she says she will do, she does and gives me proof of it.
> She told me that she was the one who ended the affair, then gave me all of her passwords and let me read the e-mails Brad sent her, begging her to come back to him. She showed me a copy of the complaint she filed against him with her supervisors, for harrassing her. I can see all of her phone bills for the last two years if I want to. I am meeting her therapist this week and have already talked to her on the phone. She has never missed a meeting. When we divorced, she took only her property. She has admitted the affair to everybody we know and takes ALL not just part of the blame for it. It seems to me that this is a no-brainer, she is the real deal, now, and I am proud to have her as mine. And make no mistake, She IS mine and nobody elses.


I dig what your saaying Rookie.
CSS told her friends and her co-workers at the church.
DD one year anniversary is coming up in a couple weeks,if she wasnt giving me everything I needed she would'nt be around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Thing is, Calvin, it would be easy for me to say that I PLANNED it this way, but I would be lying. I just wanted to punish her and regain my self-esteem. I had no idea that it would lead to us getting back together.
She is the one who always was working towards the goal of reconciliation, without any hope at all. It took a lot of guts .


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## CantSitStill

Rookie it sounds like she's been thru hell from her bad choices and now deserves this chance to improve 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Thing is, Calvin, it would be easy for me to say that I PLANNED it this way, but I would be lying. I just wanted to punish her and regain my self-esteem. I had no idea that it would lead to us getting back together.
> She is the one who always was working towards the goal of reconciliation, without any hope at all. It took a lot of guts .


Yes,I almost backed out of R a few times.
Her lawyer even told her she had no chance to get the house or custody.
We were with our first MC and I was trying my ass off,she would just look around the room and was pushing for a seperation,she wantd me out of the housed so she could date the loser.
I refused to leave,last MC session we went out,I got her drunk and I dragged the A out of her,she
refused to stop seeing him so I kicked her out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rags

CSS - much as I like your posts, and the way you are trying, I have to respectfully disagree with you here.

Rookie's Sweetie deserves .... whatever HE is prepared to offer her, at this point.
Thanks to all the hard work she's been doing, and to the sort of man Rookie seems to be, he's offering her the dream.

Great. but I can't say it's because she deserves it (for all that I really want it to work for them.)

She is not entitled. I can't say that she deserves it - even though she might more than many WWs ... what she's being offered is a gift that she doesn't deserve. 

What she has earned is respect - and on that basis Rookie is prepared to offer her this gift.

And is hopefully all the more valuable to her for that.

(And no disrespect to you, or any other WS doing everything they can to R)


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## calvin

Rags said:


> CSS - much as I like your posts, and the way you are trying, I have to respectfully disagree with you here.
> 
> Rookie's Sweetie deserves .... whatever HE is prepared to offer her, at this point.
> Thanks to all the hard work she's been doing, and to the sort of man Rookie seems to be, he's offering her the dream.
> 
> Great. but I can't say it's because she deserves it (for all that I really want it to work for them.)
> 
> She is not entitled. I can't say that she deserves it - even though she might more than many WWs ... what she's being offered is a gift that she doesn't deserve.
> 
> What she has earned is respect - and on that basis Rookie is prepared to offer her this gift.
> 
> And is hopefully all the more valuable to her for that.
> 
> (And no disrespect to you, or any other WS doing everything they can to R)


I agree with Rags,its the BS who really does go through hell.R is a gift from the BS,its not something a WS deserves.
If a WS goes through hell,they put themselves throught it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Someone mentioned in another thread that a longtime poster said that once one spouse or the other has an affair the old marriage is dead, finished, over. You have to build a completely new marriage in order for it to work. I think I agree with that. So if that is the case then no one is entitled to anything. Its a whole new ballgame.


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## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> Rookie it sounds like she's been thru hell from her bad choices and now deserves this chance to improve
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I both agree and disagree with CSS. Sweetie has earned the right to a fair hearing, by her hard work and her complete devotion to me and concern for my needs. But I want her improvement to be for her benefit as well. She has shown she is capable of doing bad things, I want her to realize that she is capable of doing good things, too. I'm really working on helping her rebuild her self-image, which is shot right now.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Someone mentioned in another thread that a longtime poster said that once one spouse or the other has an affair the old marriage is dead, finished, over. You have to build a completely new marriage in order for it to work. I think I agree with that. So if that is the case then no one is entitled to anything. Its a whole new ballgame.


I feel its a mix of the old and new and I also feel the BS is entitled to passwords,where the WS is and what their plans are.
The BS has the right to pull the plug.
They have already been betrayed and gone through hell.
The BS has a right to protect themselves from further pain.
They are taking one hell of a chance as it is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I both agree and disagree with CSS. Sweetie has earned the right to a fair hearing, by her hard work and her complete devotion to me and concern for my needs. But I want her improvement to be for her benefit as well. She has shown she is capable of doing bad things, I want her to realize that she is capable of doing good things, too. I'm really working on helping her rebuild her self-image, which is shot right now.


I think it's great that you want to help build her back up. But you must realize that she had to tear herself down in order to make the changes that she has made. By helping her to rebuild herself you can insure that she is going to eventually become the woman that she and you both want her to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Rags said:


> CSS - much as I like your posts, and the way you are trying, I have to respectfully disagree with you here.
> 
> Rookie's Sweetie deserves .... whatever HE is prepared to offer her, at this point.
> Thanks to all the hard work she's been doing, and to the sort of man Rookie seems to be, he's offering her the dream.
> 
> Great. but I can't say it's because she deserves it (for all that I really want it to work for them.)
> 
> She is not entitled. I can't say that she deserves it - even though she might more than many WWs ... what she's being offered is a gift that she doesn't deserve.
> 
> What she has earned is respect - and on that basis Rookie is prepared to offer her this gift.
> 
> And is hopefully all the more valuable to her for that.
> 
> (And no disrespect to you, or any other WS doing everything they can to R)


Yes I agree, I like the way you said it better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

One of the things her therapist told me over the phone was that I should look in on one of their sessions, sometime, to see the difference in Sweetie's attitude. When Sweetie talks about herself, she is sad, filled with guilt and negative, when she talks about me, she blooms and is happy, positive, and very loving. Her therapist said that if I could see that, I would never be worried about her cheating again. This therapist has seen hundreds of similar situations and says that Sweetie is one that she is almost 100% sure of. So......how do I help her to rebuild her psyche?


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## Rookie4

calvin said:


> I feel its a mix of the old and new and I also feel the BS is entitled to passwords,where the WS is and what their plans are.
> The BS has the right to pull the plug.
> They have already been betrayed and gone through hell.
> The BS has a right to protect themselves from further pain.
> They are taking one hell of a chance as it is
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thing is, Calvin, I don't think I'm taking that big of a chance. First off, she is doing everything humanly possible to prove herself, and secondly, we are already divorced. If she backslides or lies or if I feel it isn't working for me, all I have to do is show her the door.


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> One of the things her therapist told me over the phone was that I should look in on one of their sessions, sometime, to see the difference in Sweetie's attitude. When Sweetie talks about herself, she is sad, filled with guilt and negative, when she talks about me, she blooms and is happy, positive, and very loving. Her therapist said that if I could see that, I would never be worried about her cheating again. This therapist has seen hundreds of similar situations and says that Sweetie is one that she is almost 100% sure of. So......how do I help her to rebuild her psyche?


Positive reinforcement. Positive messages. And time. Can I ask. Have you ever told her you forgive her and really meant it? Don't say it unless you really mean it. She'll be able to tell if you aren't genuine. If you're like me you suck at lying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Thing is, Calvin, I don't think I'm taking that big of a chance. First off, she is doing everything humanly possible to prove herself, and secondly, we are already divorced. If she backslides or lies or if I feel it isn't working for me, all I have to do is show her the door.


Thats true for you since you are already divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Positive reinforcement. Positive messages. And time. Can I ask. Have you ever told her you forgive her and really meant it? Don't say it unless you really mean it. She'll be able to tell if you aren't genuine. If you're like me you suck at lying.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To be honest , I don't know if I have or not. Forgiveness has many levels and mean different things to different people. I HAVE said that I believe she would not cheat again, and I've told her that I forgive her harsh words , but a blanket forgiveness, no, I don't think so.


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## bfree

calvin said:


> Thats true for you since you are already divorced.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But like you said, you have the power to pull the plug. That puts you in the position of control. That is where the BS has to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> To be honest , I don't know if I have or not. Forgiveness has many levels and mean different things to different people. I HAVE said that I believe she would not cheat again, and I've told her that I forgive her harsh words , but a blanket forgiveness, no, I don't think so.


Then that is the journey you are both on. It ends with her being built back up. It ends with your trust being built back up. They are tied together. It also ends with happiness for both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

you said before that you will never trust her 100 percent again. That's good no one should ever trust anyone 100 percent. We are all capable of good and evil. But we always trust too much. And we usually get burned. And now your eyes are opened. Think of it this way for the last 2 years you both have had your eyes surgically replaced. Your old eyes had a rose colored tint. Your new eyes lack the rose colored tint but see a lot clearer and a lot farther. So now you and your sweetie are learning to focus with your new eyes.It's not that your new relationship is flawed, it's realistic. Your old relationship was built on fantasy. Your old relationship was flawed your new relationship is real.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Can you ever get trust back 100%?
I'd like to think so but I dont think 100% is possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> Can you ever get trust back 100%?
> I'd like to think so but I dont think 100% is possible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do not believe trust should ever be given to anyone at 100 percent. Only God deserves 100 percent blind trust. Like I said we're all capable of good and bad so one should always be wary no matter who they're dealing with. The fact that we so readily give up all of our trust to any one individual just means we are naive. All it takes is being burned 1 time to learn that lesson. Unfortunately some of us never learn that lesson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I feel trust will be 98 or 99% there but never all the way.
I highly doubt this will ever happen again.
Could it? I guess its possible but doubtful
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> I feel trust will be 98 or 99% there but never all the way.
> I highly doubt this will ever happen again.
> Could it? I guess its possible but doubtful
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you get to 98% or 99% I think that's right where you should be anyway. No human deserves 100% trust IMO. We're just too volitile a species.


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## calvin

Will it happen again?I give it .000000000001%
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

CM, I see what you mean when you said DD is not in a good place right now. I hope things improve for you both.


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## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> CM, I see what you mean when you said DD is not in a good place right now. I hope things improve for you both.


 Thank you.

I don't know where he is quite honestly. I can't even gauge him these days. My parents have offered to keep the kids overnight tomorrow, and I asked him today if he wants that. The last time someone kept the kids was New Year's Eve, and that was the last big blow up he's had. I told him I was nervous about that, and if he didn't want to spend the day/evening with me, then we didn't have to let them spend the night. He told me to go ahead and have them stay with my folks. 

He has a flight lesson scheduled tomorrow, and he has once again told me that I can go with him. I think he is doing some stalls, which should be really fun, so I am hoping that puts him in a good mood. 

There is a lot of back & forth, and a lot of nothing too. He will do things every so often that are thoughtful or sweet, and he will text me frequently in a way that is similar to how we would text pre-A (jokey, friendly). But there is a definite disconnect when we are there in person. He has reached out a few times, asking to spend time together doing things. But just as frequently, he's wanting to be by himself. There is also absolutely no physical affection. The kiss on the forehead that he gave me the other morning was the first physical touch in quite some time. 

Also, there are so many comments that can come off as a joke, but I don't really think they are -all about me cheating. If I have to call and schedule someone to come out to fix the stove, he will tell me not to blow him -though he will be the one to be at the house when the guy shows up. I went to a continuing ed. training thing this morning with a female coworker, and I got "likely story" or something like that -though he could confirm if he wanted to. 

I am not saying any of this stuff to complain, only to let you all know how he's been lately and what home has been like. I know this is my doing, and I hate it. I hate that I have to ask my husband if he is up for spending time with me. 

I hate that he feels like he does, and that I am the cause of it. 

And, though based on his latest post, he probably wouldn't appreciate prayers, I certainly would. 

Thanks again, bfree.


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## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I don't know where he is quite honestly. I can't even gauge him these days. My parents have offered to keep the kids overnight tomorrow, and I asked him today if he wants that. The last time someone kept the kids was New Year's Eve, and that was the last big blow up he's had. I told him I was nervous about that, and if he didn't want to spend the day/evening with me, then we didn't have to let them spend the night. He told me to go ahead and have them stay with my folks.
> 
> He has a flight lesson scheduled tomorrow, and he has once again told me that I can go with him. I think he is doing some stalls, which should be really fun, so I am hoping that puts him in a good mood.
> 
> There is a lot of back & forth, and a lot of nothing too. He will do things every so often that are thoughtful or sweet, and he will text me frequently in a way that is similar to how we would text pre-A (jokey, friendly). But there is a definite disconnect when we are there in person. He has reached out a few times, asking to spend time together doing things. But just as frequently, he's wanting to be by himself. There is also absolutely no physical affection. The kiss on the forehead that he gave me the other morning was the first physical touch in quite some time.
> 
> Also, there are so many comments that can come off as a joke, but I don't really think they are -all about me cheating. If I have to call and schedule someone to come out to fix the stove, he will tell me not to blow him -though he will be the one to be at the house when the guy shows up. I went to a continuing ed. training thing this morning with a female coworker, and I got "likely story" or something like that -though he could confirm if he wanted to.
> 
> I am not saying any of this stuff to complain, only to let you all know how he's been lately and what home has been like. I know this is my doing, and I hate it. I hate that I have to ask my husband if he is up for spending time with me.
> 
> I hate that he feels like he does, and that I am the cause of it.
> 
> And, though based on his latest post, he probably wouldn't appreciate prayers, I certainly would.
> 
> Thanks again, bfree.


Can I ask a question that may seem rather odd. Physically are you the same woman that you were during the affair? What I mean is same hair style, length, same makeup pattern, same style of dress, etc. The reason I ask is because as you are no doubt aware men are very visual. I'm wondering if your overall appearance is somehow triggering his subconscious so much that he has shut down to a point. I'm completely shooting from the hip here but would a "makeover" shock him out of his apathy? I'll admit I'm at somewhat of a loss. I don't think he's ready to give up but he seems to be unable to take the next step. And I don't believe that its a conscious decision on his part. Its like there's a blockage there. Maybe it will dissipate over time but he seems stuck to me.


----------



## CH

This is just the beginning of the iceberg CM. There's ALOT MORE to come and it's no fun for either party.

Being ignored to days to weeks at a time.

The crying and just you being in the same room makes it worse.

The, I HATE YOU and wished I HAD NEVER met you speech over and over.

The hugs and kisses where you just sense there is almost nothing to them at all, just like hugging or kissing a piece of rock.

and the list could go on and on and on.

It'll get better as time goes on, but it gets alot worse at times also, ALOT worse.

Well for me it did. I stuck through it all cuz I owed her that much. I wasn't an angel afterwards either but I tried my best.

BTW calvin, you never give 100% ever again. Not going to happen, you'll hold that little sliver back just in case you might get kicked in the gonads again. And that little 1% or less is what you'll use to say FU, I'm out and I can find better if they cheat again or if they just plain ignore you and start taking you for granted.

CM, that took over a period of almost 4 years for my wife to finally get over it on move on with her life. Which is about the time we had our 1st child.


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## CantSitStill

Hey ChangingMe..what's going on with him is normal at this time..I know because Calvin has struggled as DD is. Don't give up but also give him space when he says he needs it. Keep hangin on and some day he will get thru this bit by bit in his own time. I know this is making you a nervous wreck but keep praying and keep having hope and a positive spirit. It will get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

I'm not giving up. I know this is a consequence for my actions. I don't blame him for feeling or acting like he does. I can't pretend it doesn't hurt me though. But I love him and I will stay with him as long as he'll have me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Hey ChangingMe..what's going on with him is normal at this time..I know because Calvin has struggled as DD is. Don't give up but also give him space when he says he needs it. Keep hangin on and some day he will get thru this bit by bit in his own time. I know this is making you a nervous wreck but keep praying and keep having hope and a positive spirit. It will get better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS,

I know calvin still has his down times but he seems much better overall than just a few months ago. Did he go through a prolonged period of apathy like DD is right now? I know I had such a period after the divorce was final but I can't realistically apply it to what one goes through during reconciliation.


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## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> I'm not giving up. I know this is a consequence for my actions. I don't blame him for feeling or acting like he does. I can't pretend it doesn't hurt me though. But I love him and I will stay with him as long as he'll have me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No you shouldn't give up and I honestly don't feel like DD is giving up either. In some ways I wish DD was a Christian because this is where he could turn to God to help carry him through. But he'll need to find his own way regardless.


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## calvin

Well,prayers for you both.I'm christian.
I was brought up a Souther Baptist,I played piano fopr my church,my Dad was the song leader and my Sunday school teacher.
I rarely go to church but I do pray.I like beer and an occasional toke.
I dont need to tell you that you hurt him bad CM.
I hope he can see that good people do fvck up.
Good people feel guilt,remorse and hate themselves pretty hard once they see what they did.
Good people do all they can to fix it,just like CSS is still doing,she is making amends and really trying.She melts my heart sometimes because she really does "get it".
You remind me of her.Dont give up.I read your post and I know you "get it" also.
Its weird I feel kinda sorry for some of the WS's here, I also do for CSS to a point.
I'll pray that he finds it in his heart to forgive and give you a chance.I'll pray for you too.
I have started looking at it as an investment in love,like any investment there are risk but the reward can be huge.
Keep hammering him with your love.
If I would have given up,I would never know how close CSS and I have become.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Thinking of you CM and DD. I'm pulling for you both as each day passes.

My performance is tomorrow night. I think Matt is still planning to come, although last night was rough for us. He's at a museum opening tonight that is exhibiting some of his pieces. I really wanted to drive there and be with him, but he doesn't want that right now. I have a lot of anxiety about tomorrow... One of the main themes of this opera is adultery, and it's been hard for me to work on. Last night after we fought, I had to do final dress rehearsal. I bawled through the whole third act where the main character has this long aria about how destroyed he feels thinking his wife has been unfaithful. I was just a wreck and couldn't take any notes or offer constructive feedback through that section. Insist had to pop my Xanax and try to ride it out.

It's so accurate to what Matt describes and feels. I can't decide if him coming tomorrow is the worst idea ever or if its a chance for us to share some healing. I love him do much and don't want to cause him addition pain. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thinking of you CM and DD. I'm pulling for you both as each day passes.
> 
> My performance is tomorrow night. I think Matt is still planning to come, although last night was rough for us. He's at a museum opening tonight that is exhibiting some of his pieces. I really wanted to drive there and be with him, but he doesn't want that right now. I have a lot of anxiety about tomorrow... One of the main themes of this opera is adultery, and it's been hard for me to work on. Last night after we fought, I had to do final dress rehearsal. I bawled through the whole third act where the main character has this long aria about how destroyed he feels thinking his wife has been unfaithful. I was just a wreck and couldn't take any notes or offer constructive feedback through that section. Insist had to pop my Xanax and try to ride it out.
> 
> It's so accurate to what Matt describes and feels. I can't decide if him coming tomorrow is the worst idea ever or if its a chance for us to share some healing. I love him do much and don't want to cause him addition pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M, Matt knows what the opera is about. He mentioned it in his thread. Its his decision whether he wants to come or not so in this case if he triggers he knows what to expect. You can't take the responsibility for everything. You can only take responsibility for those things you can control. You can't control what Matt does tomorrow. You can be there to offer support if he has a negative emotional reaction.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> CSS,
> 
> I know calvin still has his down times but he seems much better overall than just a few months ago. Did he go through a prolonged period of apathy like DD is right now? I know I had such a period after the divorce was final but I can't realistically apply it to what one goes through during reconciliation.


With me for the first month I was happy as hell,I had my wife back from an idiot that was going to hurt her.
My anger was focused on the OM ( he would'nt stop calling me ).
Once I came back to Earth I started wondering what the hell was I doing with her,I was not about to have to police her while trying to work.
For about 9-10 months I flopped all over,I was indifferent to her some of the time.
Way too many emotions to deal with all going on at once.I did keep CSS away from my heart and mind though,I was not going to let her get into the last safe places I had.
I did start lowering the walls at a snails pace.
I wanted out many times but CSS had also changed and she was persistant.
It took me around ten and a half months to where I finally had a grip on myself,CSS had a big hand in pulling me back in.
She kept trying hard,that tells me she loves me.
I cant forget,least not yet.
What you said about never 100% bfree.
Your right.I always have an out in a way,I'm sure I'll never need one but having already been through all this crap,it will not hurt nearly as much if me and CSS where to part in the furture over any infidelity.
I really feel much better and I can stop this holding on crap but there will always be a small piece of me that no one can touch.....ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin did tell me a few time in the first few months that he wanted out and wasn't sure he wanted to be married to me. Said he was thinkin he'd be better off without me and was gonna go to his lawyer. He actually did see a lawyer the day after D-day and paid some money to the lawyer I believe. It was hard..one day he was in the next he was out. I fought him..I kept telling him how much I love him and how we could have a better marriage..yeah I pushed and at times had to go walk the dog and ball my eyes out. One night had a bottle of sleeping pills hidden by me and was thinking about taking them all but Calvin found them and took them away and hid them...it was horrific..it really does take trying different counselors and talking even when they don't wana talk and alot of work but anyway we are better than we were but still have a ways to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Mrs.M and CM,just give them time and show them how much you love them and dont give up.

It ment quite a bit to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin did tell me a few time in the first few months that he wanted out and wasn't sure he wanted to be married to me. Said he was thinkin he'd be better off without me and was gonna go to his lawyer. He actually did see a lawyer the day after D-day and paid some money to the lawyer I believe. It was hard..one day he was in the next he was out. I fought him..I kept telling him how much I love him and how we could have a better marriage..yeah I pushed and at times had to go walk the dog and ball my eyes out. One night had a bottle of sleeping pills hidden by me and was thinking about taking them all but Calvin found them and took them away and hid them...it was horrific..it really does take trying different counselors and talking even when they don't wana talk and alot of work but anyway we are better than we were but still have a ways to go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So even when calvin was angry and fighting reconciliation he still saved you from doing something tragic. CSS, he loves you very very much. You can never doubt that ever.

calvin, I knew you were a heck of a guy but wow. I just don't know what to say but wow.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks Calvin and bfree. I appreciate the thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

bfree said:


> So even when calvin was angry and fighting reconciliation he still saved you from doing something tragic. CSS, he loves you very very much. You can never doubt that ever.
> 
> calvin, I knew you were a heck of a guy but wow. I just don't know what to say but wow.


Yes I know he loves me very very much but for a while we weren't sure love was enough to get him thru this..it still haunts the hell outa both of us. There is always that fear that he can't handle it and will leave..yet I wonder how long that would last. We are very very attached.. the weird thing is before my EA I was not affectionate at all and had walls up big time. Now I love being close, holding hands, cuddling, talking ...it is so much better..so glad I've let those walls down..he still isn't all trusting of me but getting there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

No one is going anywhere.
We stick together and stay on the path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> Can I ask a question that may seem rather odd. Physically are you the same woman that you were during the affair? What I mean is same hair style, length, same makeup pattern, same style of dress, etc. The reason I ask is because as you are no doubt aware men are very visual. I'm wondering if your overall appearance is somehow triggering his subconscious so much that he has shut down to a point. I'm completely shooting from the hip here but would a "makeover" shock him out of his apathy? I'll admit I'm at somewhat of a loss. I don't think he's ready to give up but he seems to be unable to take the next step. And I don't believe that its a conscious decision on his part. Its like there's a blockage there. Maybe it will dissipate over time but he seems stuck to me.


I actually changed my hair this past Wednesday. I mixed up my hair style fairly frequently, so DD is used to it going from long to short, wavy to straight, etc. I got it cut shorter than it's been in quite a while though. He said nothing about it, so I don't know what he thinks. He normally doesn't have much of an opinion on my hair. 

I don't think a total makeover would be a good thing. I think he would get very suspicious as to why I was doing it. I know he prefers me more natural than made up, so I have been wearing less make-up on the weekends. I also know which pair of jeans he likes me in, and those get thrown in rotation with much more frequency. 

I actually took a tip from a woman in my FWW group on here that recommended tossing everything in the panty drawer and buying all new. I came home from Victoria's Secret with about 10 new pairs. DD's first question was "Who are those for?" I said, "For me and for you." He didn't say anything. 

I too feel he's stuck. Sometimes I think he has some momentum to move forward (for example, when he posted his quote about dealing with the pain of change), but then he gets resentful again (and rightly so) and once again seems stuck. 

I don't have the answer either. My best guess is just time. Time to prove to him that I really do love him, that I really am remorseful, that I really won't hurt him again, that I can be trusted, and that I have made the changes within myself to be a better, more honest, and more loving wife. He wrote today that he didn't want a divorce, so if that is true, and he is willing to give me time, then hopefully that time will allow me to show him that I am worth loving again.


----------



## ChangingMe

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thinking of you CM and DD. I'm pulling for you both as each day passes.
> 
> My performance is tomorrow night. I think Matt is still planning to come, although last night was rough for us. He's at a museum opening tonight that is exhibiting some of his pieces. I really wanted to drive there and be with him, but he doesn't want that right now. I have a lot of anxiety about tomorrow... One of the main themes of this opera is adultery, and it's been hard for me to work on. Last night after we fought, I had to do final dress rehearsal. I bawled through the whole third act where the main character has this long aria about how destroyed he feels thinking his wife has been unfaithful. I was just a wreck and couldn't take any notes or offer constructive feedback through that section. Insist had to pop my Xanax and try to ride it out.
> 
> It's so accurate to what Matt describes and feels. I can't decide if him coming tomorrow is the worst idea ever or if its a chance for us to share some healing. I love him do much and don't want to cause him addition pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, MrsM. 

Of course the opera is about adultery -it seems like EVERYTHING is these days, doesn't it?! I'm so sorry about that. We can't get away from it, can we? 

I think it says a lot if Matt comes. I can completely understand your anxiety about its effect on him, but I agree with bfree: he knows the theme, he's making the choice to attend, all you can do is be grateful he came and process with him after if he needs it. 

I'm praying for you both, as I do for many here on TAM, and especially on the R thread. 

Best of luck tomorrow, or do you say break a leg to the director too?


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> No one is going anywhere.
> We stick together and stay on the path.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like
Love
Love love love this post and love you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Like
> Love
> Love love love this post and love you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Matt is in a really bad place tonight. I just saw his last post on his thread. Please send your energies his way. I have hurt him so badly there is no comfort I can offer. He told me he was still coming tomorrow, but that was 45 minutes before that post. He also blocked me on FB. I am so devastated by what I put him through. I don't know if he'll ever be back here, but I know that prayers/good thoughts can't hurt anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt is in a really bad place tonight. I just saw his last post on his thread. Please send your energies his way. I have hurt him so badly there is no comfort I can offer. He told me he was still coming tomorrow, but that was 45 minutes before that post. He also blocked me on FB. I am so devastated by what I put him through. I don't know if he'll ever be back here, but I know that prayers/good thoughts can't hurt anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm really sorry you're having a rough time. What's the name of his thread and where is it. Really sorry, don't know your story but will pray for ya.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

DrMathias Third Strike. It's awful, I've been a horrible person for a long time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Mrs_Mathias said:


> DrMathias Third Strike. It's awful, I've been a horrible person for a long time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok I read some of it. Why do you want to stay married? Do you love your husband? Why all the lies and going underground? I mean well are you just upset that you got caught? Would you have stopped if you didn't? What are you doing to prove you aren't still getting sexually involved with students? Are you being totally transparent? Do you let him check all your emails, texts. Does he have any VARs to know what you are doing while you are away? Do you think your marriage is repairable or do you think maybe you'll miss the lifestyle you had? Well I know I just asked alot of questions..sorry but YES I will pray for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

I haven't read Matt's post, but I am praying fir you both. DD blocked me on FB this summer, changed my status to separated, said I was interested in meeting men. His grandmother messaged me to ask what was going on. It wad awful. Hang in there. Pray. Be there for him. It's so hard, for both of you. I'm sorry y'all are here. (FWIW, DD and I are friends on FB again and listed as married.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Yes, a lot of that is covered in my own thread. Take Four? Five? I'll work on a cliff notes version later. Thanks for the prayers anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Yes, a lot of that is covered in my own thread. Take Four? Five? I'll work on a cliff notes version later. Thanks for the prayers anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like I said, sorry for all the questions, haven't found your thread. Goodnight, take it easy and yes I'll pray
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Here's the thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...many-ruined-chances-count-mrs_mathias-68.html
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

I read his post, MrsM. I'm so sorry. I've been in your shoes. In my experience though, the feelings ebb and flow. He was in a really bad place last night, but maybe it helped for him to get some of those emotions out. Today is hopefully a better day. 

I will continue praying for you both.


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thinking of you CM and DD. I'm pulling for you both as each day passes.
> 
> My performance is tomorrow night. I think Matt is still planning to come, although last night was rough for us. He's at a museum opening tonight that is exhibiting some of his pieces. I really wanted to drive there and be with him, but he doesn't want that right now. I have a lot of anxiety about tomorrow... One of the main themes of this opera is adultery, and it's been hard for me to work on. Last night after we fought, I had to do final dress rehearsal. I bawled through the whole third act where the main character has this long aria about how destroyed he feels thinking his wife has been unfaithful. I was just a wreck and couldn't take any notes or offer constructive feedback through that section. Insist had to pop my Xanax and try to ride it out.
> 
> It's so accurate to what Matt describes and feels. I can't decide if him coming tomorrow is the worst idea ever or if its a chance for us to share some healing. I love him do much and don't want to cause him addition pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. Mathias, sorry I've been away but if I were to advise you, I would say that this is NOT the best idea to have your BS at this particular performance, BUT it should be his decision to go tonight or not. Does he know the subject matter that is being acted out? If so and he still wants to go, the let him take the lead for the evening, and you be try to be calm and supportive.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Yes he does know. I'm not sure if he wil be attending or not right now after last night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

CM, your husband's attitude isn't unusual and it may persist for quite some time, until he feels comfortable in the relationship with you. Not the old pre-affair you but the new remorseful cheater you. Having read several books about it and been on various infidelity websites and also been in counseling, I think that he is doing pretty good, and is trying to R as best he can. I don't know if you realize it or not, but you and Mrs. Mathias are EXTREMELY lucky to still HAVE husbands. I re-read Mrs. Mathias thread and your posts, and to be frank I would have dumped both of you instantly. Its what I did, and it worked out really well for us. My time away from her was very important to my ability to allow her back into my life, and also for her to prove that she was worthy of being MY woman again. I sometimes wonder if there should be a mandatory separation period after an affair to allow the BS to explore his/her options and see if R is really where they want to go.
I know that I've said that I sometimes wonder if I divorced too quickly, but now I believe that it was the right thing to do. If I had taken her back, I know that I would have been filled with hate and disgust for her and would have probably treated her like ****.
The best advice I can give you is the same as CSS said. You must decide if R is REALLY what you want , with all of it's work and pain and guilt feelings, ETC. If it is, then you MUST prove that you are "all in" and any decision to Divorce is your husband's choice.


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## Rookie4

AS long as they are not abusive, all decisions should be the BS's to make, except for the decision to R or D.


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## Mrs_Mathias

You're so right Rookie. I'm exceptionally grateful for every day I have with Matt right now, both good and bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

I haven't been here for a couple of days , because we were moving yet more of her stuff in. 
WE had our meeting with her therapist last night and it went really well. I invited her to a wine-tasting, figuring that if we had something to do while we were talking it would break the ice and make everyone feel more comfortable. I was surprised that she brought her husband with her, but he was a really nice guy and it turned into a fun and VERY informative evening.
One of the first things she said was that she, herself, was a former BS and WS, and like me she divorced her cheater first husband after DDAy, and that she had a ONS while married to her present husband , who forgave her after she confessed. It made me feel a lot more comfortable to know that she has the life experience to allow her to advise my EX and help her with her issues. She told me that she really believes that Sweetie is mature enough to deal with her anger issues in a positive manner and that Sweetie has done all anyone can do to prove her love. She told me that Sweetie ADORES me and would die before she ever hurt me again. You know what? I believe her.


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## calvin

When I decided to try R it was with the understanding that I could opt out anytime I wanted,I'm not saying a year down the road I can D,that would'nt be fair.
It took CSS constantly proving herself to me that I would not regret staying together.
I had to be willing to put myself in a position to be hurt again also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> You're so right Rookie. I'm exceptionally grateful for every day I have with Matt right now, both good and bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know that both you and CM are both very remorseful. I can feel it from your posts and from seeing how horribly Sweetie feels about herself. She told me that she would rather die than cheat again and so did her therapist. I guess I'm changing in my attitude towrds WS's. Most of them I see or read about, who still want to make their marriage recover, would do just about anything.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Is anyone else NOT getting email notifications of new posts? I thought all you guys were "dark" for two days!


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## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> You're so right Rookie. I'm exceptionally grateful for every day I have with Matt right now, both good and bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So keep fighting. Who cares if infidelity is one of the themes. It is on every TV as well.

What I am saying is encourage him to be there. That you want him there.
I know last night was rough. It will not be the last time.

But you gave him some crappy memories. 

So give him some good ones now.

And yes, the choice is his whether he comes or not. Whether he reconciles or not.

But you have a choice too!

To love him. To show him that you can be loyal and honest again.

That choice is yours. So if you are all in let him know that too.......

By your actions.......

HM64


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## SomedayDig

Uh oh... EI didn't get the 4,000th post. I don't wanna be here for that!! LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

SomedayDig said:


> Uh oh... EI didn't get the 4,000th post. I don't wanna be here for that!! LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ut oh lol..oh well it's her fault for not posting in a while..She missed it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

We are broken. I tried to explain to her that we will never be happy together. It's not on her, she deserves to be with someone who doesn't harbor all the hate. We are so damn broken.


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## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> We are broken. I tried to explain to her that we will never be happy together. It's not on her, she deserves to be with someone who doesn't harbor all the hate. We are so damn broken.


I'm sorry...are you guys in counselling at all? Can't remember. I'm so sorry you two are trying so hard yet still struggling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

joe kidd said:


> We are broken. I tried to explain to her that we will never be happy together. It's not on her, she deserves to be with someone who doesn't harbor all the hate. We are so damn broken.


Joe,

If you and Pidge both want to fix things but are having difficulty with how to fix things maybe you should consider calling Dr. Harley at Marriagebuilder's. I've seen them work virtual miracles with couples. They even have weekend retreats that I've heard really good things about. If you are ready to throw in the towel what have you got to lose? Just saying.


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## joe kidd

I'll change that...I'm broken.


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## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> I'll change that...I'm broken.


breathe, relax and calm down for a bit..tomorrow's a new day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Joe and Pidge,please think about this,its not too late.
I'm dont remember if you guys tried counseling or not.
I hope you guys can find a way,I like both of you and I really think you guys can do this.At least I hope so.
Praying and having a beer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Joe's had quite a few beers. I left the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

I love her. She needs to be with someone who she doesn't have this tainted history with. As I said, I'm broken.


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## pidge70

I wish you would quit saying that. I want to be with you. I love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Joe,slow down on the beer,it clouds your judgement,Pidge seems to be all in and she has a point about her hurting from your EA.
I know joe still hurts also.
Pidge has been with you for a long time.
I remember when you asked why she still sticks around,her answer was because she loves you,that really touched me.
Pidge doesnt seem to bring up your EA much,seems she is forgiving you.
I wish you would do the same for her.
I hope you guys can work this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriageinformation.org

To me reconciliation means to win back the love of the person that you still want to spend the rest of your life loving.


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## bfree

joe kidd said:


> I love her. She needs to be with someone who she doesn't have this tainted history with. As I said, I'm broken.


Joe, if you love her and she loves you and wants to be with you what is the holdup. You say you are broken. You are no more broken than I was. What was once broken can be repaired. If you are feeling sorry for yourself stop it.


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## joe kidd

bfree said:


> Joe, if you love her and she loves you and wants to be with you what is the holdup. You say you are broken. You are no more broken than I was. What was once broken can be repaired. If you are feeling sorry for yourself stop it.


Not feeling sorry, just accepting myself for what I am. I'm not a deep guy, as Pidge has said in the past I'm robotic. Some can handle emotion, I have managed without it for many years. It's something that gets away from me. Control and mastery...so many things I'm f^cking stellar at and I just can't handle emotion.


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## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> I love her. She needs to be with someone who she doesn't have this tainted history with. As I said, I'm broken.


You love her and she loves you..so what is the real problem..neither one of you are bringing up the real issue...why can't she be with you the tainted you? Hell I'm tainted and Calvin and I are giving it our all to stay together. You need to elaborate Joe..Pidge is it that he drinks that is pushing you away? Can you two not talk about these things and work on them from there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

How's that going to work? We have 2 children that need an emotionally involved father. I love your mom but, I'd really rather our children have two emotionally involved parents rather than just one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

You know what? Screw it. He's drunk and I should have not came back to the house. 

He has the ability to have plenty of emotion about a multitude of things, just now me. I get indifference, I got it for years.


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## calvin

God you guys,come on.
Lifes short.It can be a hell of a lot better if you both just surrender to eachother and give up the battle.
Pain is different.Physical pain will go away usually but sometimes it takes rehab.
The pain you both are going through requires a sh!t load of mental rehab but the reward can be great for both of you.
You guys have kids also.
I'd love to see you guys really work on this.
Pidge hurts too joe,reach out and offer the olive branch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

pidge70 said:


> You know what? Screw it. He's drunk and I should have not came back to the house.
> 
> He has the ability to have plenty of emotion about a multitude of things, just now me. I get indifference, I got it for years.


Have not raised my voice...have not been obscene in the least.


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## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> I wish you would quit saying that. I want to be with you. I love you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Joe! Did You see that? She loves you for who you are..stop saying she deserves better when she wants you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

This is making me trigger.
Why am I with a woman who was not faithful to me when I was?
Why would'nt she work on the marriage when I was willling to?
Why did she meet up with a fvcking loser and tell him she loved him?? And did it on my dime?
Why did I have to sleep alone in the spare room?
Why was he better than me?
Why was he my fvcking replacement?
Why was I disposable? Someone to be toosed out into the trash so this azzhole could worm his way in to my home?My life?.....Fuvcking why!!??
I guess I never really mattered much.I was'nt worth it.He was.
Me? Well,I'm nothing.
Nothing,at least not to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> This is making me trigger.
> Why am I with a woman who was not faithful to me when I was?
> Why would'nt she work on the marriage when I was willling to?
> Why did she meet up with a fvcking loser and tell him she loved him?? And did it on my dime?
> Why did I have to sleep alone in the spare room?
> Why was he better than me?
> Why was he my fvcking replacement?
> Why was I disposable? Someone to be toosed out into the trash so this azzhole could worm his way in to my home?My life?.....Fuvcking why!!??
> I guess I never really mattered much.I was'nt worth it.He was.
> Me? Well,I'm nothing.
> Nothing,at least not to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now we just talked about all of that. I was wrong about alot of things. I have learned from those things and you are my everything. I'm here with YOU and I always will be as long as you will have me. I know with all of my heart that I love you and will never give up on you. I am sorry as hell for all the hell I put you through. I will forever be regretful for my bad choices..as I said, I cannot even believe that was me then. It kills me and I hate that I hurt you. Calvin I love you and will never ever leave you or ever have anything to do with any other man.. I feel very confidant that we are going to have a very good marriage and it's going to get better and better. We love eachother and also..I AM IN LOVE WITH YOU! I will fight for you no matter how hard it gets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

We are something,we do matter joe.
They fvcked up,they know it and have admitted it and are making amends.
They deserve this chance,I'd want it.I'd beg for it.
They love us and us alone.
Stop protecting yourself so much.
A month ago you were in.Get back into the game and go to win.
Its very possible joe.
I love CSS crazy and I know you do Pidge.
You got this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Didn't mean to make you trigger Calvin. Sorry.


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> This is making me trigger.
> Why am I with a woman who was not faithful to me when I was?
> Why would'nt she work on the marriage when I was willling to?
> Why did she meet up with a fvcking loser and tell him she loved him?? And did it on my dime?
> Why did I have to sleep alone in the spare room?
> Why was he better than me?
> Why was he my fvcking replacement?
> Why was I disposable? Someone to be toosed out into the trash so this azzhole could worm his way in to my home?My life?.....Fuvcking why!!??
> I guess I never really mattered much.I was'nt worth it.He was.
> Me? Well,I'm nothing.
> Nothing,at least not to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now, hang on a second, old chap.

You strike me as probably being a handsome, well-built, muscular sort of a bloke.

And the OM, well, he wasn't. At. All. Was he?

In fact from the descriptions of him he seems to be more like this:-

So you have to know it was, indeed, a product of a loss of sanity on the part of CSS.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Didn't mean to make you trigger Calvin. Sorry.


Its ok Pidge,you didnt,I did it to myself.It will pass.
Ugh.

Gonna put in a movie and forget about all this crap for a little while.
I hope you both are ok,thinking of you guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I DO love you Calvin. I fkcd up so bad but you saved me from my mental breakdown after I betrayed you and you've been trying your damndest to R with me and I see so much how wrong I was and from this I have learned. I will always love and cherish you..we're gonna make it after all...so will Joe and Pidge and all of the other couples on this thread 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I DO love you Calvin. I fkcd up so bad but you saved me from my mental breakdown after I betrayed you and you've been trying your damndest to R with me and I see so much how wrong I was and from this I have learned. I will always love and cherish you..we're gonna make it after all...so will Joe and Pidge and all of the other couples on this thread
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm getting back on the path,I love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Soo B1 and EI you two haven't been here in a while soo we all pretty much took over your thread lol..but at least we are all staying on topic (reconciliation)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

One thing that strikes me (as a more or less disinterested observer) - alcohol rarely seems to help, both in avoiding affairs in the first place, and dealing with emotions after one occurs. People turn to drink, and it tends to cause more problems than it solves.

Not making any value judgements - just an observation.


----------



## EI

joe kidd said:


> I'll change that...I'm broken.


I'm so sorry...... There really are no "magical" words, fixes or formulas for recovering from infidelity. There is no "right" way to do something that stems from something so wrong. And the consequences, repercussions and victims just keep piling up. Can't figure out where it began and have no idea how it ends. 

On a lighter note, B1 passed the test that he had been in class for all week at work. He got a 91%. It was for a required certification. I've always been so proud of him, and a little in awe, too, for how hard he has worked and how much he has achieved in his field. On Monday when the class started, they took a practice test and he was the only one who passed. Unfortunately, he still had to stay in class all week and take the "official" final. Only 1/3 of the class was ready to take the final on Friday. Okay, enough of that.....

Today B1 and I took a road trip to fulfill a wish of mine that I have had for a long time. I am not only a WS, (surprise, surprise) I am a woman who has hopes, dreams, goals, needs, desires, and fears of my own, just like every other human being. I get so disheartened, sometimes, when reading the CWI threads on TAM. Obviously, infidelity is a subject that elicits strong emotions for everyone involved. The anguish that a BS experiences is something that no one questions or doubts. It's understood and rightfully so. No one wants to discuss that in many marriages the WS suffers, too. And, in many marriages, that suffering began long before the infidelity began. If there is any acknowledgment of their suffering it is only to say that it is of their own making. I know that posting this will create feelings of intense anger for some. That is not my intention, so I apologize, in advance, should that be the case. It's why WS's often don't speak out, don't tell the "whole truth," often trickle truth, follow the cheater's script, etc. Reasons are called justifications, explanations are called blame-shifting and it becomes a free for all with no holds barred for the veteran TAMers to make blanket assumptions, character assassinations, and suggestions that border on the illegal. Then, at the worst possible time, and likely when the BS needs comfort and strength from their WS the most, the WS is thrust into their own silent Hell with no "safe place" to vent their innermost feelings, confusion and fears. 

There are a million directions that my comments could go in. They can stand alone without comment or they can be discussed. I'm open to either. For several days I've been reading thread after thread, each one filled with heartbreaking stories of infidelity and heartbroken people whose lives have been shattered. I've been reading words like "worthy" and "deserving" and I start to respond and I get so filled with angst and emotion that I just have to stop. Everyone desires to be loved and everyone longs to be heard, to be understood; BS's and WS's, alike. Infidelity is horrible, devastating, paralyzing, life shattering, find an ugly adjective and fill in the blank. But, I'm going to say the unthinkable, the unacceptable on TAM...... There are many, many things that can occur within a marriage/relationship that are horrible, devastating, paralyzing and life shattering. Infidelity may, indeed, be the worst of those things, but when infidelity has occurred and reconciliation is desired by both parties, if you are the BS, then you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and figure out what, if any, part you played in those things before you start throwing out words like "worthy" and "deserving of a second chance." Because, the second chance might just as likely be your own.

With all of that having been said, B1 and I are in a good place, overall, with difficult moments thrown in. He and I have, both, spent the last 8 months looking in the mirror and have taken a long, hard inventory of our lives and ourselves. We've each acknowledged our shortcomings and our failures. We've discussed the hopes and dreams that we had at the beginning of our lives together and the disappointments and heartbreaks along the way. Some of them were..... just life.... and beyond our control, while others were a result of choices that we made. At the end of the day, at least as of this day, we have chosen to continue in our journey towards reconciliation. But, make no mistake, reconciliation is a choice..... there is always an "out." That "out" is available to BOTH spouses. Whether you are the BS or WS, if you can't or won't commit to choosing healing and moving towards a happier, healthier, more successful and more loving relationship vs. spending a lifetime punishing your spouse for their transgressions, while maintaining your status as the "bigger victim," then give your spouse, and yourself, the gift of letting go. Go separate ways before you further destroy yourselves and one another. We only get one life. This is NOT a dress rehearsal. 

I'll write about our road trip later. I love you, B1. Thank you for still caring about my hopes, my dreams and my goals. Thank you for putting "us" before "you." I will spend the rest of our lives doing the same. I have my hero back!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I agree with you EI..I'm sure there may be others that don't but I reallyu don't think it would be much of a marriage worth staying in if I were punished daily for my infidelity..I wanna make it clear that is NOT the case with Calvin and me. I'm just saying if there are people out there living miserable in their marriage then they may need to get out. I am happy, it's been a rough day but I am happily in love with my hero 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

Rags said:


> One thing that strikes me (as a more or less disinterested observer) - alcohol rarely seems to help, both in avoiding affairs in the first place, and dealing with emotions after one occurs. People turn to drink, and it tends to cause more problems than it solves.
> 
> Not making any value judgements - just an observation.


Everything in moderation, Rags.

Occasionally, if I'm hurting pretty bad, I'll make the decision to stay in and drink a tubful of vodka (I'll never do this when I go out - because I HAVE been known to make some bad decisions in this condition - and there's that pesky DUI thing). It does dull the pain for a few hours and I sleep like a champ. Of course, the next AM I feel like sh!t, but the headache takes my mind off the heartache, believe it or not.

Went out last night, had a few drinks, surrounded myself with friends and friendly, attractive ladies. Came home by myself at a decent hour, took a couple of sleeping pills and slept in this AM. Went to the gym and had a vigorous workout.

I'm about to head out again, but likely won't drink any alcohol tonight. Everything in moderation.


----------



## B1

On the WS deserving issue...my take on it.. deserve = worthy of

I know this isn't going to go well with many on here but it's my take on this issue as it pertains to us.

Part of me thinks who the hell am I to deem that EI is deserving? What, am I now God and have the right to say she is deserving of another chance? We ALL know what Jesus did in this case, he stopped a stoning, pointed his finger at those who judged and forgave.

EI is doing everything possible and then some to prove her love, devotion, and to build trust. And the biggie, SO AM I. I have to be deserving too. In my mind we BOTH deserve another chance, we both deserve love and happiness and trust.

Yes, I get where this whole deserving thing is coming from, but in my eyes EI is far more than deserving of another chance, "and here is the rub to many" she has a right to another chance. Why? because I messed up too, BIG time, I hurt her to the core and she still hurts to this day over the things I did, didn't do and said, what I did affected her more than anyone knows and still does, people on here just don't see it. For me it's a two way street, not a one way street. The whole deserving issue and me saying she is deserving seems to place me in some position of great power and authority and I am not there. I see us as equals, as one. I see as as two people who made some very bad choices and now we are living with those choices and we are dealing with them. I truly love this woman and I am no better than she is and she is no better than I am. We are both flawed and we have allowed our flawes to hurt the ones we love the most. Now it's time to make amends, to forgive, to move forward and that's where we are today.

So, Is EI deserving of another chance, well, to me, the same question should be asked of me!


----------



## bfree

EI,

You're absolutely correct but BS need to examine their actions and contributions to the marriage both good and bad even if they aren't reconciling. I divorced and in the aftermath did some really destructive and harmful things. In order to become a better person and someone worthy of my current wife, even though I hadn't met her yet, I needed to deconstruct my behavior not only after the divorce but pre D-Day as well. And to be honest that process still hasn't ended. I learned that when I was dealing with my trust issues just a couple of months ago, and even now that I have reached a certain level of forgivess for my ex. I commend you for your post and extremely honest truth.


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## old timer

B1 said:


> On the WS deserving issue...my take on it.. deserve = worthy of
> 
> I know this isn't going to go well with many on here but it's my take on this issue as it pertains to us.
> 
> Part of me thinks who the hell am I to deem that EI is deserving? What, am I now God and have the right to say she is deserving of another chance? We ALL know what Jesus did in this case, he stopped a stoning, pointed his finger at those who judged and forgave.
> 
> EI is doing everything possible and then some to prove her love, devotion, and to build trust. And the biggie, SO AM I. I have to be deserving too. In my mind we BOTH deserve another chance, we both deserve love and happiness and trust.
> 
> ...because I messed up too, BIG time, I hurt her to the core and she still hurts to this day over the things I did, didn't do and said, what I did affected her more than anyone knows and still does, people on here just don't see it. For me it's a two way street, not a one way street. The whole deserving issue and me saying she is deserving seems to place me in some position of great power and authority and I am not there. I see us as equals, as one. *I see as as two people who made some very bad choices and now we are living with those choices and we are dealing with them.* I truly love this woman and I am no better than she is and she is no better than I am. We are both flawed and we have allowed our flawes to hurt the ones we love the most. Now it's time to make amends, to forgive, to move forward and that's where we are today.
> 
> So, Is EI deserving of another chance, well, to me, the same question should be asked of me!


*B1* - you've got this thing. I couldn't agree more. While I'm separated now, and we may ultimately decide to R - we may just as likely decide to D - but both my W and I agree that we made some real screwups in our marriage - and NOT just the A's.


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## bfree

B1 said:


> On the WS deserving issue...my take on it.. deserve = worthy of
> 
> I know this isn't going to go well with many on here but it's my take on this issue as it pertains to us.
> 
> Part of me thinks who the hell am I to deem that EI is deserving? What, am I now God and have the right to say she is deserving of another chance? We ALL know what Jesus did in this case, he stopped a stoning, pointed his finger at those who judged and forgave.
> 
> EI is doing everything possible and then some to prove her love, devotion, and to build trust. And the biggie, SO AM I. I have to be deserving too. In my mind we BOTH deserve another chance, we both deserve love and happiness and trust.
> 
> Yes, I get where this whole deserving thing is coming from, but in my eyes EI is far more than deserving of another chance, "and here is the rub to many" she has a right to another chance. Why? because I messed up too, BIG time, I hurt her to the core and she still hurts to this day over the things I did, didn't do and said, what I did affected her more than anyone knows and still does, people on here just don't see it. For me it's a two way street, not a one way street. The whole deserving issue and me saying she is deserving seems to place me in some position of great power and authority and I am not there. I see us as equals, as one. I see as as two people who made some very bad choices and now we are living with those choices and we are dealing with them. I truly love this woman and I am no better than she is and she is no better than I am. We are both flawed and we have allowed our flawes to hurt the ones we love the most. Now it's time to make amends, to forgive, to move forward and that's where we are today.
> 
> So, Is EI deserving of another chance, well, to me, the same question should be asked of me!


In the eyes of God we are all flawed and He doesn't play favorites or scale the grades. A sin is a sin and repentance is repentance. B1, please continue to post. Your words are more valuable than you may realize.

Oh and EI, please post about your road trip. I think some positive fun stories are just what is needed.


----------



## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> In the eyes of God we are all flawed and He doesn't play favorites or scale the grades. A sin is a sin and repentance is repentance. B1, please continue to post. Your words are more valuable than you may realize.
> 
> Oh and EI, please post about your road trip. I think some positive fun stories are just what is needed.



I agree on both accounts. I heard a few details about the trip prior to it happening, and it sounded great (and is yet another example of EI's big, caring heart). I too want to hear more details on how it went!


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## CantSitStill

It's true that the BS doesn't have a free ticket to treat the WS like crap..Calvin and I have both discussed things we will not put up with. We both have boundries. A marriage take 2 not one constantly doing all the work whether you are the BS or the WS. This is where both need to forgive and make the necessary changes within themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> CM, your husband's attitude isn't unusual and it may persist for quite some time, until he feels comfortable in the relationship with you. Not the old pre-affair you but the new remorseful cheater you. Having read several books about it and been on various infidelity websites and also been in counseling, I think that he is doing pretty good, and is trying to R as best he can. I don't know if you realize it or not, but you and Mrs. Mathias are EXTREMELY lucky to still HAVE husbands. I re-read Mrs. Mathias thread and your posts, and to be frank I would have dumped both of you instantly. Its what I did, and it worked out really well for us. My time away from her was very important to my ability to allow her back into my life, and also for her to prove that she was worthy of being MY woman again. I sometimes wonder if there should be a mandatory separation period after an affair to allow the BS to explore his/her options and see if R is really where they want to go.
> I know that I've said that I sometimes wonder if I divorced too quickly, but now I believe that it was the right thing to do. If I had taken her back, I know that I would have been filled with hate and disgust for her and would have probably treated her like ****.
> The best advice I can give you is the same as CSS said. You must decide if R is REALLY what you want , with all of it's work and pain and guilt feelings, ETC. If it is, then you MUST prove that you are "all in" and any decision to Divorce is your husband's choice.



Oh, Rookie, I promise you that I know I am beyond lucky. I have posted before that on DDay, when DD asked me who & what I wanted, I was left speechless -not because I was trying to decide -but because I never in my life thought I would be given a choice once he found out about me cheating. I wake up every day thankful that I am in my house with my husband and my children. Some days are really rough, and it hurts, but I am still grateful. He posted hard stuff yesterday, but he also posted that he didn't want a divorce, and I am going to cling to that. I can't stop him divorcing me if he chooses to do so -like I have also said, I realize I have put that option very much on the table for him. But I will not seek one out; it is the last thing I want. I want to be with this man that I fell in love with when I was 20, that I became good friends with when I was 16, that now, at 34, I want more than I ever have. I have hurt him beyond what I would have ever imagined I was capable of, but I will love him the rest of my life and spend that time showing him that I can be faithful, trustworthy, and his best friend and lover. And I will do that for as long as he will let me.


----------



## ChangingMe

joe kidd said:


> I'll change that...I'm broken.


The counselor me is going to challenge this, Joe. Broken does not have to be a permanent condition. You have a choice in the matter. It doesn't mean it's easy or will happen quickly, but you can change aspects of yourself that are not helping you. I can attest to that as a counselor, but more importantly, on a personal level. I hated myself in June, after DDay (actually hated myself prior, to be honest). I still hate what I did, but I can see where the efforts I've been making are taking hold, and I am making positive changes in who I am and how I relate to people. It's possible, I promise you. 

I'm praying for both you and Pidge. Take care.


----------



## calvin

I did'nt believe before but I guess a new stronger marriage really can come from all of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I'm going to bed,where I can wrap my arms around CSS and pull her up tight next to me.Good stuff.
I also like to put the top of my feet close to the bottom of her feet ,if that makes any sense.
I love my wife,really do and I know she loves me.
Goodnight all.
I will say all my prayers for you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> I'm going to bed,where I can wrap my arms around CSS and pull her up tight next to me.Good stuff.
> I also like to put the top of my feet close to the bottom of her feet ,if that makes any sense.
> I love my wife,really do and I know she loves me.
> Goodnight all.
> I will say all my prayers for you all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like spoons in the silverware drawer. Gnight calvin and CSS. Sleep tight.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Re: Reconciliation...
> 
> Quote of B1
> ________________________________________
> On the WS deserving issue...my take on it.. deserve = worthy of
> 
> I know this isn't going to go well with many on here but it's my take on this issue as it pertains to us.
> 
> Part of me thinks who the hell am I to deem that EI is deserving? What, am I now God and have the right to say she is deserving of another chance? We ALL know what Jesus did in this case, he stopped a stoning, pointed his finger at those who judged and forgave.
> 
> EI is doing everything possible and then some to prove her love, devotion, and to build trust. And the biggie, SO AM I. I have to be deserving too. In my mind *we BOTH deserve another chance, *we both deserve love and happiness and trust.
> 
> Yes, I get where this whole deserving thing is coming from, but in my eyes *EI is far more than deserving of another chance,* "and here is the rub to many" she has a right to another chance. Why? because I messed up too, BIG time, I hurt her to the core and she still hurts to this day over the things I did, didn't do and said, what I did affected her more than anyone knows and still does, people on here just don't see it. For me it's a two way street, not a one way street. The whole deserving issue and me saying she is deserving seems to place me in some position of great power and authority and I am not there. I see us as equals, as one. I see as as two people who made some very bad choices and now we are living with those choices and we are dealing with them. I truly love this woman and I am no better than she is and she is no better than I am. We are both flawed and we have allowed our flawes to hurt the ones we love the most. *Now it's time to make amends, to forgive, to move forward and that's where we are today.*
> 
> So, Is EI deserving of another chance, well, to me, the same question should be asked of me!




Man I am amazed at how far B1 and EI have come in just less than one year!
B1 has just presented an attitude that took me years to get!!!!

Here is man that has endured great pain because of his WS (read B1and EI posts) and now he speaks about his WS as being deserving. 

B1 has also pointed out a truth that many may not like. That truth is that as far as a WS being forgiven for their sin it is not the BS that has that authority. No one but God has that position. 

Can the BS impose consequences on the WS? YES
Can the BS refuse to forgive the WS?	YES

I fully understand that in some cases the consequences will be divorce and that the divorce is the best alternative in some cases.

*However, for those that believe like B1, and their WS is truly remorseful, and has shown that by actions and with love, like EI has, are you as honest and introspective as B1 about this truth below:*

Matthew 6:14 
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Matthew 6:15 
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Luke 7
47 “I tell you, her sins—and they are many—have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love.” 48 Then Jesus said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.”

John 8:7 
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

I voted for Rookie4 and his x-wife to be named rookie of the year 2013.

Now I would like to vote for B1 and EI as MVP of 2012.
I hope that you tolerate my sports analogy. I think that the analogy is very fitting and is well deserved. Also I think that Calvin deserves an Honorable mention award.

*How many of us BS can be hurt to the bone then turn around and in less than one year be so supportive of our WS? *

*How many of us BSs can have such a positive and constructive attitude as B1?*


EI is also a MVP as she has shown great remorse and true love by her actions. There are other MVP in this category such as Rookie4’s x-wife, CM, CantSitStill, and others. 

You want a model for the beginning of R that is SUCCESSFUL?
Read about people that are WINNING; Read about these people.

B1’s words below give a very good summary of the results of their actions and attitudes:

*



Quote of B1
we both deserve love and happiness and trust.
EI is far more than deserving of another chance
Now it's time to make amends, to forgive, to move forward and that's where we are today

Click to expand...

*


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## EI

I know exactly what you mean about your feet. It's like your feet are "spooning!" I like feet. I think they're sexy! I like to give B1 foot massages and since his Testosterone has gone into high gear, he does some things with mine that I'd never even thought about before! ;-) But, no worries, I keep them very nicely pedicured (I do it myself) and I polish my toe nails purple...... Drives B1 wild! :-D

Road trip details tomorrow.......... But, I'll give you a hint. It involved helping 4 little furry rescued puppies getting one step closer to their fur-ever homes in Minnesota. It actually involved several more than that..... B1 and I transported 4 of them! There is no such thing as too many puppy kisses! xoxoxo <3 I just can't stop smiling about the joy it brings me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by CantSitStill
> Let's all just pray for eachother tonight and see how tomorrow goes. If we all didn't love our spouses so much we wouldn't be here. If we didn't love our spouses so much we wouldn't be feeling this pain. It hurts but I know Calvin's not gonna give up and I know I won't. I'm all in..how about you all? Are you in?
> Posted via Mobile Device
> 
> 
> By Rookie
> "All in?" Nope, never happen. If there is one thing this whole sorry mess has taught me, it is to put no credence in words like " *trust, faith, belief,* or promise,". I am interested in words like "actions, fact, proof, and evidence". The first 4 words are why we are in this mess, the last 4 will get us out of it.




Rookie
cantSitStill suggested prayer, love, and not giving up. Sounded good to me. Thank you CantSitStill

I agree with “actions, fact, proof, and evidence”
However, at some point down the line trust, faith, belief are very important in a loving relationship.

*Sometime in a loving relationship you will need more than fact, proof, and evidence to make that relationship full and deep.*


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## EI

Bfree, Mr. Blunt, CSS, Calvin and CM...... Thank you for those positive words of affirmation. I was prepared for some negative backlash for my post. Sometimes, when I feel burdened about the nature of a lot of the posting that is going on around here, I hesitate to weigh in with my personal feelings on the subject. Sometimes, the truth isn't what people really want to hear. But, my truth, about my feelings is all I have to offer. If I only say what I think others want to hear from me then I'm not really helping anyone, not myself or anyone else. Again, thanks for lifting me up. The threads have been very discouraging the last few days and I think it brings everyone down. 

You all have a very special place in my heart. You have all contributed so much to my reconciliation with B1. TAM really has been a learning experience. 

Good night!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

Think of this thread as you "safe space" because this thread is about _reconciliation_ after all. I think if you posted the same thoughts you just did on most other threads here, you'd be attacked for sure.

But here's the reality: Often there are problems in marriage. Infidelity blows it up and makes that the major focus. But those old problems are still there in many cases. They will have to be addressed down the road.


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## old timer

Damn right, Larry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

And I'll add, I cringed a little when I read it. So far no attacks, and I hope it stays that way.


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## EI

larry.gray said:


> Think of this thread as you "safe space" because this thread is about _reconciliation_ after all. I think if you posted the same thoughts you just did on most other threads here, you'd be attacked for sure.
> 
> But here's the reality: Often there are problems in marriage. Infidelity blows it up and makes that the major focus. But those old problems are still there in many cases. They will have to be addressed down the road.


You're right, lg, I know that this thread is a "safer place" on TAM than any of the other threads. But, the truth of the matter is that no matter where I post my thoughts, my own personal feelings as a former WS, they would be no less true. There are dozens and dozens of threads on the CWI forum posted by devastated BS's who post their stories on TAM seeking advice in the hopes of reconciling. Most of the time the advice is spot on. Often times these marriages can not and should not be saved. And, it always take BOTH the BS and the WS being 100% committed to the reconciliation process, for all of the right reasons, in order for there to even be a glimmer of hope for a happy, successful reconciliation. 

Sometimes, BS's need a healthy dose of tough TAM love to weather the upcoming storm of a would be cake eating WS. But, my position has always been and will remain, that in marriages that were seriously troubled prior to the infidelity, if the BS seeks reconciliation with a truly remorseful WS and the BS acknowledges that they played a significant role in the destruction of the marriage, then finger-pointing, assigning fault/blame, claiming the moral high ground, has no place in reconciliation. Personal accountability, patience, compassion, and forgiveness for one another are going to be the greatest factors in the potential success of the "new union."

Please feel free to add your thoughts and insights to the "R" thread. We're not an exclusive club. Thanks for your post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Uh oh... EI didn't get the 4,000th post. I don't wanna be here for that!! LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




*The 5,000th post is MINE!!!* LOL


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## Rookie4

I agree with EI about punishment , but I don't agree or believe that the BS has any responsibility for the Affair, at all. I do agree tha BOTH partners in a marriage are responsible for it's success or failure. There are many things I should have, could have, done that might have changed the situation, but the decision to cheat was all hers, and she must bear the blame for that choice. I am perfectly willing to bear 1/2 the blame for our f**ked up marriage. I disagree with B1 that the WS has a right to a second chance. Nobody has a right to my company/home/family without my approval. Especially someone who brought a stranger into our family, by her affair. I personally feel that the main reasons that Sweetie and I are back together is that we both have learned a lot in the ensueing 2 years, and are willing and desirous of making a new start. Our old marriage is dead and buried. Our new relationship is much more honest and fulfilling, and I am PROUD to say that she is my girl.


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## Rookie4

I personally think that I should get the 5,000th post as I wasn't around for the 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, or 4,000th. I mean, fairs fair.


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## Rookie4

Besides, I'm injured and deserve it more.


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## EI

Okay, here's the deal, Rookie! I knew that B1's choice of the word "right" would annoy someone, but it was his comment and I try not to "edit" them. I think what he really meant to say was that he felt that I was just as "deserving" of a second chance with him as he was of a second chance with me. Because, I agree with you, I don't have a "right" to a second chance with him. Neither did he have a "right" to a second chance with me. We're not "entitlements," we're human beings, all of us. Rights to ourselves are something that we, as individuals, choose to bestow upon others. 

About the 5,000th post........ NO....... Not a chance. It's mine! And, what kind of injury are you talking about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

No, No, EI, it didn't annoy me at all. I just disagree. Although, to be honest, some of the ideas that you guys have, who are still in your marriages, don't really apply to my situation.
What happened was that I was stupid and was lifting a large piece of furnace plate and dropped it on my left foot, cutting off about an inch of my pinkie toe and the two next to it (I don't know what their names are) Sweetie, being the well-trained medical professional she is, passed out on the steps, so I had to pick her up and carry her to the sofa, trailing blood all over the carpet. Nice Saturday, Huh? What this means, however, is that she will not be able to go back to her appt., because she will obviously have to nurse me back to health.


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## old timer

Here's a question that I have, not pointed at anyone:

How many "Betrayed Spouses" come to TAM and were guilty of undiscovered infidelity themselves - before discovering their spouse's "A", but never "fess up" to their own cheating?

I'll bet there are more than one or two.

I have asked this question before in other threads, and the room goes very "quiet". No one addresses it, and I find that very telling.

The position of being the "betrayed spouse" has a certain amount of power bestowed upon it - you have the moral "high ground". I know - I've been there. After discovering my wife's A (after having been in an undiscovered five-year A of my own), I took the "holier than thou" position, and beat her into the ground with it - because I didn't think she was "remorseful enough" about her A.

Because of a very discreet AP, I could have kept this facade going indefinitely, and most likely never have been found out. However, the pain I could see it was causing my wife (I truly do love her, you know, in spite of my selfishness) and the hypocrisy of it all was literally eating me up inside.

After finding TAM, and reading all the info about "full disclosure", I admitted to my wife that I had been unfaithful. Had I admitted my own cheating upon finding her out (instead of perpetuating the "holier than thou" lie), I sincerely believe we could be on the way to a true reconciliation by now. 

May be I'm looking for absolution of some sort, but I truly believe there are "Betrayed Spouses" here on TAM who have cheated themselves, and just cannot, for whatever reason, admit they have done the same thing as their "Wandering Spouse".

As I said - this post is not pointed at ANYONE here. It's just a theory I have.

Flame away.


----------



## B1

EI said:


> Okay, here's the deal, Rookie! I knew that B1's choice of the word "right" would annoy someone, but it was his comment and I try not to "edit" them. I think what he really meant to say was that he felt that I was just as "deserving" of a second chance with him as he was of a second chance with me. Because, I agree with you, I don't have a "right" to a second chance with him. Neither did he have a "right" to a second chance with me. We're not "entitlements," we're human beings, all of us. Rights to ourselves are something that we, as individuals, choose to bestow upon others.
> 
> About the 5,000th post........ NO....... Not a chance. It's mine! And, what kind of injury are you talking about?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I knew that the word "right" would be a problem and it's perfectly fine to disagree, hey it's what makes the world go around and it's ok. 

Perhaps it's better put that she is as deserving as me, I felt and still feel very strong that she is more than deserving of another chance. So, I used the word right. 

I think *strongly *that she more than deserves another chance because I am getting another chance too! I just wanted to use something stronger than deserving because that's what I feel, right or wrong, like it or not it's what I feel.

btw: Take over this thread anytime you want folks, thank you all for being there for each other, the support others get and give here is just amazing. 

I have had a busy week studying and getting this cert. It was one that was required by the Gov. and I HAD to get it to basically keep my job, so it was very stressful.
I can't tell you what it was like when the test ended and I had to push the button to get my score....let's just say, I had an immediate heart pounding rush that gave me a headache.
Then, when I pushed the button, it starts asking me all these questions about the teacher, the material and so forth...rating everything about the class. I'm thinking for the love of God man would you just give me my score.. Finally it says in little bitty tiny print, within a lot of other text, "passed". 
I left so wound up and stressed out, I didn't even feel good until hours later. I have awful test anxiety if you didn't figure it out already. 

Well, gotta run, helping my dad put brakes on my sisters car this morning. Take care all!


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## ChangingMe

Last night we had a kid-free night -our first since NYE when DD had his last tirade. I'm not going to lie -I was nervous about how it would go. 

It was a really good night. DD took me flying with him, which I thought was really fun. He was disappointed in himself, since due to the weather, it was more challenging than the previous lesson. He and I are similar there -we are very driven, especially at things we really want to succeed at. I was nervous it might make the day go downhill, but thankfully it didn't. 

We went for some yummy Mexican food, had some beers at a very cool bar, then headed back home, turned on the hot tub, and hung out in there until bedtime. 

The best part was in the middle of the night, I woke up to him holding me. He said two things: "I love you. You are a good person." I am sure that any WS on here knows how significant those 2 phrases are. They are making me cry just to write about them. He may not believe those things 100% of the time, but some times he does, and I will hold onto that and treasure it and hope that he will believe those things more and more with each passing day.


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## Anymum

ChangingMe said:


> Last night we had a kid-free night -our first since NYE when DD had his last tirade. I'm not going to lie -I was nervous about how it would go.
> 
> It was a really good night. DD took me flying with him, which I thought was really fun. He was disappointed in himself, since due to the weather, it was more challenging than the previous lesson. He and I are similar there -we are very driven, especially at things we really want to succeed at. I was nervous it might make the day go downhill, but thankfully it didn't.
> 
> We went for some yummy Mexican food, had some beers at a very cool bar, then headed back home, turned on the hot tub, and hung out in there until bedtime.
> 
> The best part was in the middle of the night, I woke up to him holding me. He said two things: "I love you. You are a good person." I am sure that any WS on here knows how significant those 2 phrases are. They are making me cry just to write about them. He may not believe those things 100% of the time, but some times he does, and I will hold onto that and treasure it and hope that he will believe those things more and more with each passing day.


So happy for both of you and your family.


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> Last night we had a kid-free night -our first since NYE when DD had his last tirade. I'm not going to lie -I was nervous about how it would go.
> 
> It was a really good night. DD took me flying with him, which I thought was really fun. He was disappointed in himself, since due to the weather, it was more challenging than the previous lesson. He and I are similar there -we are very driven, especially at things we really want to succeed at. I was nervous it might make the day go downhill, but thankfully it didn't.
> 
> We went for some yummy Mexican food, had some beers at a very cool bar, then headed back home, turned on the hot tub, and hung out in there until bedtime.
> 
> The best part was in the middle of the night, I woke up to him holding me. He said two things: "I love you. You are a good person." I am sure that any WS on here knows how significant those 2 phrases are. They are making me cry just to write about them. He may not believe those things 100% of the time, but some times he does, and I will hold onto that and treasure it and hope that he will believe those things more and more with each passing day.


Wow brings tears to my eyes..With the way things were going that is HUGE 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

ChangingMe said:


> The best part was in the middle of the night, I woke up to him holding me. He said two things: "I love you. You are a good person." I am sure that any WS on here knows how significant those 2 phrases are. They are making me cry just to write about them. He may not believe those things 100% of the time, but some times he does, and I will hold onto that and treasure it and hope that he will believe those things more and more with each passing day.


That was beautiful, CM, but hopefully, every spouse/significant other knows how significant those words are. To have our spouse's love and admiration is such a beautiful gift. One that we should never take for granted, ever again. I know you won't. I'm so glad you had such a lovely evening! :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Thats good to hear CM,hearing good stuff like that gives me even more hope that everything is going to be good.
Its hard but we all can do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

B1 said:


> I knew that the word "right" would be a problem and it's perfectly fine to disagree, hey it's what makes the world go around and it's ok.
> 
> Perhaps it's better put that she is as deserving as me, I felt and still feel very strong that she is more than deserving of another chance. So, I used the word right.
> 
> I think *strongly *that she more than deserves another chance because I am getting another chance too! I just wanted to use something stronger than deserving because that's what I feel, right or wrong, like it or not it's what I feel.
> 
> btw: Take over this thread anytime you want folks, thank you all for being there for each other, the support others get and give here is just amazing.
> 
> I have had a busy week studying and getting this cert. It was one that was required by the Gov. and I HAD to get it to basically keep my job, so it was very stressful.
> I can't tell you what it was like when the test ended and I had to push the button to get my score....let's just say, I had an immediate heart pounding rush that gave me a headache.
> Then, when I pushed the button, it starts asking me all these questions about the teacher, the material and so forth...rating everything about the class. I'm thinking for the love of God man would you just give me my score.. Finally it says in little bitty tiny print, within a lot of other text, "passed".
> I left so wound up and stressed out, I didn't even feel good until hours later. I have awful test anxiety if you didn't figure it out already.
> 
> Well, gotta run, helping my dad put brakes on my sisters car this morning. Take care all!


You know B1, I understand exactly where you're coming from. If a BS does not want to R, we should respect that decision and in that case the WS has no rights to anything. But if R is chosen then both spouses should have certain expectations. Many times we see that the WS is not able or willing to make a concerted effort at giving the BS what he or she needs to feel safe in the relationship and rebuild trust. But sometimes the BS is the one that does not make any effort and in that case I think the WS should have the expectation that both parties are going to be "all in." So I agree with you that the term deserved simply isn't broad enough or accurate enough to describe those expectations.

And congrats on passing your certification test. I get awfully anxious taking a test too so I completely undertand what you're saying.


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## bfree

In Matthew 7:24-27 Jesus spoke of a house built on rock and a house built on sand. When the storms came the house built upon sand fell with a great crash while the house built upon rock remained solid. Let's all strive to build our marriages not on the sand of feelings but on the rock of commitment. We owe it to ourselves, our spouses and our children.


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## Decorum

CM,
I am glad you heard those words from him. It brought tears to my eyes as well.

As I read the posts of couples trying to r or move toward r, I'm always concerned that the BS remembers that their partner is only human and has a breaking point too.

I posted on dd's thread that I follow it and I was praying for you two. I think that may have sparked a small religious debate over there. I did not know the situation at that point.

I posted a reply then deleted it, I am still considering weighing in on it, but I think not.

I may post if the topic continues but I holding off for now. 

This thread does seem a bit more tolerant to expressions of faith.

So God bless you both and grant you wholeness in your marriage.

Take care!


----------



## bfree

Decorum said:


> CM,
> I am glad you heard those words from him. It brought tears to my eyes as well.
> 
> As I read the posts of couples trying to r or move toward r, I'm always concerned that the BS remembers that their partner is only human and has a breaking point too.
> 
> I posted on dd's thread that I follow it and I was praying for you two. I think that may have sparked a small religious debate over there. I did not know the situation at that point.
> 
> I posted a reply then deleted it, I am still considering weighing in on it, but I think not.
> 
> I may post if the topic continues but I holding off for now.
> 
> This thread does seem a bit more tolerant to expressions of faith.
> 
> So God bless you both and grant you wholeness in your marriage.
> 
> Take care!


Decorum,

I don't hesitate any more to post whatever I feel regardless of how people receive it, especially when it comes to faith. The way I see it, if just one of my words resonates with someone then that is a good thing. When I was at my lowest people tried to help me. I may not have appreciated it or even respected it then but those words came back to me when I needed them most. Your words are gently spiritual and they come from a place of love. You should post.


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## bfree

pidge70 said:


> You know what? Screw it. He's drunk and I should have not came back to the house.
> 
> He has the ability to have plenty of emotion about a multitude of things, just now me. I get indifference, I got it for years.


Pidge,

I've been thinking about you and Joe all last night and today. I'd like to ask a question but I want you to know my intention is honorable and comes from the heart. So if I can play armchair psychologist for a minute here goes.

I believe I read that you have BPD. Not long ago I posted in the General Relationship Section that I was looking for books on people with BPD for a relative of ours that is dealing with a son with BPD. The book I eventually recommended to them was Loving Someone With Borderline Personality Disorder by Shari Y. Manning. And of course being a book lover my wife read it as well. She mentioned that when someone has BPD many times their spouses or loved ones can begin to shut down emotionally as a self defense mechanism. I'm not sure when you discovered you had BPD or what types of counseling you and Joe might have had but is it possible Joe has in fact put up a wall around his emotions over the years and his emotions build up to the point where he drinks and then they all come spilling out all at once? Has Joe ever gone to counseling to deal with any of this?

I only ask because I see the struggles our relatives are going through and its heartbreaking for all of them.


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## Rookie4

Joe and Pidge, I was a little pre-occupied last night, but I want you to know that I still think you can pull this out of the fire. Joe you need to cut back on the booze, it doesn't help anything, no matter how much you think so at the time. Pidge, unless Joe is abusive you shouldn't be heading for the door, but trying to take a measured positive approach. I know it's easy for me to say, but I think I can speak for just about everyone here that we are behind you and whatever decisions you make, as long as you are sure that those decisions are made reasonably and without anger. Good Luck to you both.


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## pidge70

I was diagnosed about 9yrs ago. 

Joe has pretty much always shut down and he was drinking way before I met him...to the point of pissing blood. 

He has not in fact gone to counseling.


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## pidge70

Rookie4 said:


> Joe and Pidge, I was a little pre-occupied last night, but I want you to know that I still think you can pull this out of the fire. Joe you need to cut back on the booze, it doesn't help anything, no matter how much you think so at the time. Pidge, unless Joe is abusive you shouldn't be heading for the door, but trying to take a measured positive approach. I know it's easy for me to say, but I think I can speak for just about everyone here that we are behind you and whatever decisions you make, as long as you are sure that those decisions are made reasonably and without anger. Good Luck to you both.


I left before I said something I may have regretted. Joe knows how I am. He knows I hate drinking.....I grew up with a mother that drank and would either verbally/emotionally/physically abuse me. There for a long time after my A was discovered, Joe drank every day. I never knew if he would love me or hate me. Just like it was with my mother.


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## Rookie4

The tale of the tape as it stands right now is that I've lost 1 in. of my pinkie toe, 3/4 in. of the next toe, 1/2 in. of the one next to that. The toe next to my big toe has a gouge out of it, but it missed the bone , so it will heal. It was a pretty straight diagonal cut. I couldn't have done much better with my chopsaw.
I am on some pretty impressive painkillers, Sweetie has me propped on the sofa, watching a 007 marathon, she isn't wearing much except an apron and there is a pot roast , veg, yorkshire Pud and peach pie in my immediate future. All in all, life could suck a lot worse.


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## bfree

pidge70 said:


> I was diagnosed about 9yrs ago.
> 
> Joe has pretty much always shut down and he was drinking way before I met him...to the point of pissing blood.
> 
> He has not in fact gone to counseling.


I'm sure he has been approached about going to counseling. What was his response? Joe, if you're reading this would you consider going to counseling, if not for Pidge then for yourself.


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## Rookie4

pidge70 said:


> I left before I said something I may have regretted. Joe knows how I am. He knows I hate drinking.....I grew up with a mother that drank and would either verbally/emotionally/physically abuse me. There for a long time after my A was discovered, Joe drank every day. I never knew if he would love me or hate me. Just like it was with my mother.


Trouble is , Pidge I can relate to both sides. My Dad's family are hillbillys and hard drinkers, while my Mom's family are strictly religious, and teetotal. Even though my Paps people drank, they were never alcoholics, and always worked hard and played hard. Just a suggestion but perhaps Joe should be working on this booze problem ,before either of you make any bigtime D or R decisions. Joe, how can you make rational decisions, if you're pie-eyed?


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## pidge70

bfree said:


> I'm sure he has been approached about going to counseling. What was his response? Joe, if you're reading this would you consider going to counseling, if not for Pidge then for yourself.


He isn't a counseling type guy. Honestly, I don't know when he could find time to go. He doesn't have set hours at work and we already have our 12yr old in therapy.


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## pidge70

Rookie4 said:


> Trouble is , Pidge I can relate to both sides. My Dad's family are hillbillys and hard drinkers, while my Mom's family are strictly religious, and teetotal.


I used to drink but, I was diagnosed with polycystic kidney disease which always ends in renal failure. No cure, no treatment. I don't need to exacerbate my condition with alcohol.


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## bfree

pidge70 said:


> *He isn't a counseling type guy.* Honestly, I don't know when he could find time to go. He doesn't have set hours at work and we already have our 12yr old in therapy.


Yeah, I used to say that as well until I realized that there isn't a "counseling type of guy." There are only those that go to counseling and those that need counseling, at least in some ways. Not having time is a very poor excuse for not going. If he had cancer and needed chemotherapy would he say "sorry I don't have time?" When something is necessary and important you make time.


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## calvin

I wasnt the couseling type either,I thought it was for the weak.
I was very wrong,it has helped and opened my eyes to quite a few things,it also depends on the counselor,some are good,some suck.
Our first one said that if a wife cheats its always the husbands fault.
CSS told him how wrong he was,he wouldnt see us again unless I agreed to go on a mens retreat.
The counselor we have now is pretty good,she does say things that make me uncomfortalble about myself but she's right.
Ugh...back to the garage,I need coils to put into the threads that were stripped.
Calling off tomorrow,if I cant handle this I have a buddy who can,have to have CSS's truck towed there tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Pidge, my heart goes out to you and your family. I know you're struggling, as we all are, but I am really feeling your pain right now. I wish that I had some profound words of wisdom for you. I do think that you and Joe could benefit from IC and MC. If you've been in IC, I'm sorry I missed it. I think your original thread may have been deleted before I came to TAM. I admire you and Joe for hanging on this long after your PA and his RA. It just seems that you both deserve to have some peace and happiness and I hope that it can be together. I know that you love one another. 

Decorum and Bfree, I really love your posts today and, yes, expressions of faith are more than welcomed on this thread. I feel like I've been in a stalemate with God for quite some time. I haven't felt His love, grace or protection in my life for the last several years throughout many hardships that B1, our children and I have endured. Yet, as a Christian, though I haven't FELT his presence, I KNOW He's here. I'm listening and waiting for His still, small voice to lead me back to the path that He would have me on. 

Decorum, I've read your posts on other threads and I would very much appreciate any contributions you would like to make on the "R" thread. Not everyone who posts here is a Christian, but I'll tell you that everyone who posts on this thread is near and dear to my heart. We have some truly wonderful people with hearts filled with wisdom, compassion, and mercy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

calvin said:


> I wasnt the couseling type either,I thought it was for the weak.
> I was very wrong,it has helped and opened my eyes to quite a few things,it also depends on the counselor,some are good,some suck.
> Our first one said that if a wife cheats its always the husbands fault.
> CSS told him how wrong he was,he wouldnt see us again unless I agreed to go on a mens retreat.
> The counselor we have now is pretty good,she does say things that make me uncomfortalble about myself but she's right.
> Ugh...back to the garage,I need coils to put into the threads that were stripped.
> Calling off tomorrow,if I cant handle this I have a buddy who can,have to have CSS's truck towed there tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you noticed that it's always the simple, easy little jobs that turn out to be complicated, difficult and hard?:scratchhead:


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## Rags

Rookie4 said:


> The tale of the tape as it stands right now is that I've lost 1 in. of my pinkie toe, 3/4 in. of the next toe, 1/2 in. of the one next to that. The toe next to my big toe has a gouge out of it, but it missed the bone , so it will heal. It was a pretty straight diagonal cut. I couldn't have done much better with my chopsaw.
> I am on some pretty impressive painkillers, Sweetie has me propped on the sofa, watching a 007 marathon, she isn't wearing much except an apron and there is a pot roast , veg, yorkshire Pud and peach pie in my immediate future. All in all, life could suck a lot worse.


Kind of an extreme solution to make her have to stay with you - but I admire your commitment 

(I've been ill for several days, and have had to work 18 straight hours after a night with no sleep due to work and illness... but I get no sympathy at all. In that regard, I envy you .. although on balance, I'll keep my toes if I can.

Yorkshire Pud .... yum ...)


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Have you noticed that it's always the simple, easy little jobs that turn out to be complicated, difficult and hard?:scratchhead:


I'm telling ya M&M,it those threads didnt come out and the one bolt broke off.....ugh,its a gravy job,I've done it 50 times on other vehicles,this time not so good but I'll find a way.
No matter what,me and CSS are together,she's good to me.She really is,I love this woman so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Looks like joe's niners are mounting a come back
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I'm a niners fan for the rest of the season 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

bfree said:


> Decorum,
> 
> I don't hesitate any more to post whatever I feel regardless of how people receive it, especially when it comes to faith.


DD has communicated why he's not receptive to religion right now. I think it is disrespectful to him to continue such talk on his thread. He doesn't need to feel that people are intentionally antagonizing him.


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## CantSitStill

Man reconcilling is a b*tch! I understand how he feels..Calvin's been there alot since our D-day. It takes alot of work and the BS still never feels totally normal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> .... I've lost 1 in. of my pinkie toe, 3/4 in. of the next toe, 1/2 in. of the one next to that. The toe next to my big toe has a gouge out of it, but it missed the bone , so it will heal.


Whoa man, what the !)@#~!! happened????


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## bfree

larry.gray said:


> DD has communicated why he's not receptive to religion right now. I think it is disrespectful to him to continue such talk on his thread. He doesn't need to feel that people are intentionally antagonizing him.


And yet he liked my post. DD is a big boy. He can ignore or object to anything he sees fit to. We don't always know what words will be comforting to a BS or even a WS. The best thing to do is to say what we feel as long as its said with the goal of helping.


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> Whoa man, what the !)@#~!! happened????


I dropped a piece of boiler plate the size of a volkswagon on my foot. It had a VERY sharp edge.


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Man reconcilling is a b*tch! I understand how he feels..Calvin's been there alot since our D-day. It takes alot of work and the BS still never feels totally normal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No but I'm getting there,shooting for 99%
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Joe and Pidge, Joe might not be a counseling kind of guy, but so what? I'm not an Emergency Room kind of guy either, but you do what you have to do.
You and Joe have so many issues, health, alcohol,communication, and infidelity, that I think you both feel overwhelmed, and can see no end to them , so you call it quits in frustration. . A good MC can help you to work on your issues in a positive and organized manner so they won't seem so mind-blowing. You can schedule your visits to suit your lifestyle and incorporate health and alcohol counseling as part of the package. Think about it.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of EI
> I feel like I've been in a stalemate with God for quite some time. I haven't felt His love, grace or protection in my life for the last several years throughout many hardships that B1, our children and I have endured. Yet, as a Christian, though I haven't FELT his presence, I KNOW He's here. I'm listening and waiting for His still, small voice to lead me back to the path that He would have me on.



"I feel like I've been in a stalemate with God for quite some time. I haven't felt His love, grace or protection in my life for the last several years"

EI
From what you and B1 have written I saw love, grace, and protections coming from your husband in the last few months. Ask B1 where he got that. My guess is that you had something to do to help your husband demonstrating those qualities. If you want you can ask B1 about that also.



"I'm listening and waiting for His still, small voice to lead me back to the path that He would have me on."


I can not get into your talks with God but, again from what you and B1 have written, your path seems to be one of a truly remorseful woman that has changed 180 degrees. I think the Christians call that repentance. *I bet God is pleased with that path, don’t you think?*


When I see true repentance (EI) and love, grace, protection, and forgiveness (EI and B1) I FEEL God in both of you. *You are both an encouragement to fighting one of the monsters of marriage killers and you are winning!*


----------



## ChangingMe

Good Monday, TAM. I took the morning off, since my kids don't have school today, so we're playing while I try to get the house straightened a bit before my mom comes over to watch them this afternoon. 

I want to weigh in on the religion talk soon, but it will take me a while to write out all I want to say, and that will have to wait until later. 

I hope everyone has a good week. I have IC this afternoon, which is good. DD and I continue our ups and downs (so often Calvin and CSS, I have thought was an apt title your thread has!). I texted him to see if he wanted the kids and me to meet him for lunch; I haven't heard back yet. 

I have some huge work things coming up this week -I find out if I will get additional funding from 2 sources, which would be HUGE. I run a non-profit, and more money is ALWAYS needed. Work is going to get really hectic for a while, since we move offices February 23 (yea!), but it makes me a little nervous, since I try to limit extra work stuff in order to not stress DD out any more than I have to. I am already trying to figure out how to do some stuff at home so I am not at the office any more than I have to be. I do have a work fundraiser tomorrow evening, and as of now, DD is going to go with me to it, which is great. 

Alright. Enough about me. How about you guys? Rookie, how are your toes? Margrace, daisygirl, how are you 2 doing? Dig, how are you and Regret? OT, have you moved out? How are you doing with that? Cpacan, how have you been feeling lately? And anyone else I've missed, feel free to let us know how you're doing. Thinking and praying for you all!


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I dropped a piece of boiler plate the size of a volkswagon on my foot. It had a VERY sharp edge.


Yeah we know the REAL reason you did it. You manipulative SOB. You sacrificed a toe or two just so you could get that nurse/patient dynamic started. Smooth, real smooth.


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## calvin

Morning,was up late getting CSS's truck going,my buddy is a drunk but he's a damn wizzard when it comes to vehicles,if this ever happends again I know what to do.
The tow truck driver turned out to be a old guy that was really cool to us when we were kids growing up,he's 25 years older that me,he used to let us neighborhood kids swim in his pool.
He only charged me $55 for the tow,thats cheap for a Sunday night.
All together it cost me about $300 to get her truck done,hell of a lot cheaper that the dealer.
So I'm off today,I'll get a little done around the house then play grab ass with CSS. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Sounds like a plan, Cal. I've been playing that game with Sweetie pretty much since I became toe-less. LOL Only thing is she has to be on top for a few days, but I LIKE that position anyway, and she is good to go for any playing, as long as I want to. (pretty much all of the time) since I can't walk. It's been eat, sleep , F**k and watch movies and sports around the Rookie household. Plus my wonderful daughter brought me a very nice bottle of Rye, to help me ease my pain. So , what was wrong with CSS's ride?


----------



## daisygirl 41

The night before my H finished "it" with the OW i prayed to God to give him the strength to do the right thing for me and my children. That night I felt at peace for the first time in months.A week later H was home. 

During one of our many conversations in those early days of R, my H said, the night before he finished it with the OW, he prayed to God to give him the strength and help him do the right thing. He said he woke the next morning and knew exactly what he had to do!


----------



## margrace

hey cm and everyone -- good to catch up with your posts this afternoon. i've been away and was missing you all.

i'm thinking a lot about what EI, B1, and others of you have said about the pain that WSs feel (and felt pre-A). 

amazing how hard it is for us to hold in our heads the reality that yes, two people can *both* be hurt and can *both* hurt each other and can *both* be good people who *both* made mistakes. the story doesn't always have to boil down to a good guy and a bad guy. when you insist on boiling it down that way, you just get stuck in competing over who has to be the bad guy.

even though this is what i feel in my heart about my WS and my R, i sometimes get thrown off my own spot when i read other threads. "where's your self-respect?" "put his stuff out on the lawn!" "get a backbone!" etc etc. i can find myself thinking, hmmm, yeah, what's wrong with _me_, anyway?! why am i not saying, get the h*ll out?!

this fits well for some BSs and the particulars of *their* marriage and i have no problem with that. 

we don't have any bad guys or gals on this thread -- just people who have been hurt and who have made mistakes and who have the courage to learn and be accountable. AND they are lucky enough to love someone enough that they keep putting one foot in front of the other, even when the hurt temporarily blinds one or the other of them for a moment.

my R is not yet where some of yours are, where i hope it will someday be. i see my WH actively working in counseling on being more honest with himself and with me about his infidelity. i need him to get a bit further before i can really exhale. 

but: i'm hurt and i also hurt someone.


----------



## EI

larry.gray said:


> And I'll add, I cringed a little when I read it. So far no attacks, and I hope it stays that way.


I apologized in advance for anyone that I might upset. Again, it was absolutely NOT my intention to cause any BS more pain than they have already endured. It hurts me to think that my words caused you to cringe or feel pain. I have my very own precious BS and I see the pain in his eyes every day. It breaks my heart. 

My real intention with that post was to share my own personal story.... so that if there is anyone, any couple, who can identify with our experience (a marriage like my marriage to B1 *prior* to my infidelity) that they might see themselves and NOT make the same mistakes and choices that we did. My goal, my hope, my dream is to spare others the pain that B1 and I are both in. I wish that there were no WS's..... then, there would be no BS's. 

I repeat parts of my story frequently. The main theme that I try so very hard to get across without attempting to blame-shift (because I know that the affair was 100% my choice and mine alone) is that if your spouse IS communicating their unmet needs to you, if your spouse IS telling you that they are unhappy in the marriage, if your spouse IS expressing a need for more intimacy, if your spouse IS expressing that they have reached the end of their rope, if your spouse IS asking you to work with them on improving the marriage.... then please, please, please listen to them. Because, the truth is, when your spouse expresses their needs to you, they are in essence saying, "I'm not happy with the state of our marriage, but I do love you and I would like for you to work with me on making our marriage a happier, stronger, healthier and more successful marriage." I posted this in another thread, I think it might have been Rookie's. "Husbands/Wives, when your spouse suddenly stops complaining, yet there has been no improvement in the relationship, it doesn't mean that have settled or accepted the situation. It means that they have given up." Now, if you choose to bury your head in the sand because you are "content" or lack the motivation and/or drive to change the situation, is your spouse justified to have an affair? *NO*. But, if you're posting on TAM in the CWI Forum then you already know that it can and does happen, all too often. 

There is so much more to be said on this subject.... like my earlier post, this can stand alone or be discussed. I am open to whatever anyone would like to ask. 

I think the obvious direction this could go in is "Why not divorce?" Or, who knows, it could go anywhere. I'm willing to answer any questions. I'm willing to post and let it be. It's up to you guys. 

Back to you, *larry.gray*, I am sorry that you cringed when reading my post. I don't know if this has made it better or made it worse. But, I do thank you for not wishing any "attacks" in my direction. I appreciate that very much.

Please continue to add your input here. You are a valuable poster on TAM.


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> EI
> From what you and B1 have written I saw love, grace, and protections coming from your husband in the last few months. Ask B1 where he got that. My guess is that you had something to do to help your husband demonstrating those qualities. If you want you can ask B1 about that also.
> 
> 
> 
> "I'm listening and waiting for His still, small voice to lead me back to the path that He would have me on."
> 
> 
> I can not get into your talks with God but, again from what you and B1 have written, your path seems to be one of a truly remorseful woman that has changed 180 degrees. I think the Christians call that repentance. *I bet God is pleased with that path, don’t you think?*
> 
> 
> When I see true repentance (EI) and love, grace, protection, and forgiveness (EI and B1) I FEEL God in both of you. *You are both an encouragement to fighting one of the monsters of marriage killers and you are winning!*


Mr. Blunt, your posts lift me up and inspire me and encourage me to continue fighting the good fight. I still feel so scared that B1 won't be able to heal. That I won't be able to heal him. That he will never, again, truly be happy. Then, I will never truly be happy. As "one flesh," if he cannot fully heal then it would be impossible for me to heal. But, I have to remember that as a Christian, I am not walking this walk alone. I am walking with B1 by my side and if we let go and let God, He can carry us through this. I still believe. We may be weather worn and beaten, but we're still standing.


----------



## CantSitStill

daisygirl 41 said:


> The night before my H finished "it" with the OW i prayed to God to give him the strength to do the right thing for me and my children. That night I felt at peace for the first time in months.A week later H was home.
> 
> During one of our many conversations in those early days of R, my H said, the night before he finished it with the OW, he prayed to God to give him the strength and help him do the right thing. He said he woke the next morning and knew exactly what he had to do!


Wow that gives me chills..wow! Well God intervened the day Calvin brought me home after d-day..he had a feeling and knew someone was going to the hospital and something was totally wrong so he texted me..I actually asked him"did my sister call you?" And he swore no one told him he just knew..I was having a nervous breakdown..couldn't breathe and was hyperventalating. It was the worst attack I ever had and I was looking for a ride to the looney bin..literally. I texted my sister and my neice and no one answered. Then Calvin texted me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> I'm telling ya M&M,it those threads didnt come out and the one bolt broke off.....ugh,its a gravy job,I've done it 50 times on other vehicles,this time not so good but I'll find a way.
> No matter what,me and CSS are together,she's good to me.She really is,I love this woman so much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wonder if it was a badly made bolt? Sometimes if there's a tiny piece of slag in it it will eventually snap.


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Morning,was up late getting CSS's truck going,my buddy is a drunk but he's a damn wizzard when it comes to vehicles,if this ever happends again I know what to do.
> The tow truck driver turned out to be a old guy that was really cool to us when we were kids growing up,he's 25 years older that me,he used to let us neighborhood kids swim in his pool.
> He only charged me $55 for the tow,thats cheap for a Sunday night.
> All together it cost me about $300 to get her truck done,hell of a lot cheaper that the dealer.
> So I'm off today,I'll get a little done around the house then play grab ass with CSS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This might seem an odd question, but what make was the tow truck? (I have links with what in the UK is known as the vehicle recovery industry, but in the USA are tow trucks and wreckers.)


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> This might seem an odd question, but what make was the tow truck? (I have links with what in the UK is known as the vehicle recovery industry, but in the USA are tow trucks and wreckers.)


Yep M&M,tow trucks and wreckers we call them.
The tow truck was a Chevy Siverado 3500 4x4.
Let the jokes fly.
What do you Brits call a tugboat?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

*Small Tow Truck:*









*
Rollback:*










*BIG WRECKER:*


----------



## Decorum

EI said:


> Decorum, I've read your posts on other threads and I would very much appreciate any contributions you would like to make on the "R" thread. Not everyone who posts here is a Christian, but I'll tell you that everyone who posts on this thread is near and dear to my heart. We have some truly wonderful people with hearts filled with wisdom, compassion, and mercy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



A personal invitation to join a thread family, that is so kind, I feel like the new kid on the block who was asked to join in with everyone,

I ACCEPT!

Can I do a quick intro?

I’m married (25+) with four children BGBG ages 17-24.

I was out of work for 9 month and I am now employed out of town (about 2 hours away) and I come home when I am off. I work 4 days 3 days so I’m off 5 & 2 days.

My wife and I have not had to deal with the difficulty of infidelity as many of you have, and before I came to TAM honestly I had no idea how painful it was. My younger sister with whom I am very close went through it with her husband and it was a nightmare but I know now she went through more than I realized.

I have not seen her since I joined TAM, she lives several states away, but I will talk to her when I see her in person next. 

BTW they have reconciled and moved on really well, which I realize now is a bigger accomplishment that I could imagine.

My wife and I have had our struggles, she became afflicted with Multiple Sclerosis about 19 years ago and to be honest with job changes trying to raise 4 teenagers and her illness we had a “LOST DECADE”, together.

I really felt there were no good years left, just fake it till you make it, when I stumbled on TAM I learned some things that made a difference.

My wife would tell you that I’m a good father, provider, and overall a good man, but our relationship was upside down. I was a passive nice guy, and she has a strong personality. As her MS progressed it made it hard on our relationship.

Finding TAM came at the right time, I/we righted the ship and it renewed our relationship.

We have 3 in college and our youngest grads HS this year and off she will go, and I am actually looking forward to the remaining years now.

Btw we have bought a house in the city where I work and when our youngest grads my wife will join me here. (Actually I’m home now, yea)

I just redid my profile, I had started a thread to post your pets and the thread activity only lasted aday.

I had posted a picture of my youngest daughter (17 yrs) and me working with our new thoroughbred (her new 4H horse for this year, her last year in 4H )on it. So when I deleted it,

I put that up in my profile, I don’t know if I will leave it up, I’m a bit old school about these things.
But please stop by if you like and see what I have shared.

Well Thanks for the space!

Take care!


----------



## ChangingMe

Welcome, Decorum! I have to say, this is the best place on TAM. And I can say that, since I didn't start this thread. Seriously though, it is about encouragement, honesty, and inclusion. I did not feel like I should post at first, since as you know, my husband goes back and forth between R and D, but EI, B1, and the others made me feel very welcome, and now I am firmly planted here. 

Thank you first for posting on DD's thread. I think your posts are valuable, and even if they don't fully resonate with DD, they help others (including myself). I think you are respectful in your posts and your views, and I very much appreciate that. 

Thank you also for posting your story here. I am always interested to learn poster's stories are and what brought them to TAM. I am glad your sister is doing well. I too had NO idea how much anguish an affair would cause, as stupid as that sounds. But I really didn't. It's shocking and terrifying to see the ramifications. I wish to God that I had found this site last year before I made the unforgettable choices I made. 

Anyway, back to you! Thank you for sharing and welcome to the thread. I did check out the picture, and I have to admit there is a bit of jealousy there for your daughter. Horses are my love, and while I have taken lessons off and on since the age of 11, I have never owned my own, which is a dream of mine. Someday . . . 

Oh, and if anyone wants to see what I look like, DD posted a big picture of us with the Mythbusters from last spring on his thread. I tend to stay pretty anonymous, since ya know, I did do a horrible thing & I am not at all proud of it, but since he posted it, what the heck. That's me next to Jamie, with my sweet DD at my side next to Adam.


----------



## calvin

Nice to meet you Dec
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Margrace, I am once again blown away by your post. It amazes me to see a BS in pain, and yet willing to look within herself and attempt to process what her husband must have gone through or is going through himself. I know you are not the only one to do so -B1, Calvin, and others do as well, but maybe it's because you're a woman that your words have a certain poetry to them. I am sorry you are hurting, but I am glad your husband is trying. 

Daisygirl, your story gave me chills as well -as did CSS and Calvin's. A sad thing is that one of the only God things that DD will totally admit to is that he knew that I was having an affair. There are 2 events in his life that he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt before anyone told him -one was that his ex-girlfriend was murdered and the other was that I was cheating. He was right on both accounts, and it makes me sick to know that. Even still, I am not at all sad he caught me -I needed that wake up call. All I am sad about is that I cheated in the first place. 

Ok, enough about sad stuff. Here's some encouragement. If you think about it, people who post on a Coping With Infidelity forum aren't going to be the super happy R'ers that are out there. R is beyond hard, no doubt. But the majority of marriages do survive after R, so either there are a ton of rug-sweeping, miserable people out there, or there are people who have healed their relationships and are so happy that they don't take the time to check a forum like this. I'm sure there are some of both, but here are 2 stories that I know for a fact that encourage me daily. 

1) My in-laws. DD's dad had an affair before DD was born. I'm not sure what all happened after, but his mother stayed with him since she had a baby (my SIL). When DD was 11, his dad cheated again. His mom kicked him out, and he was gone 2 years. DD remembers meeting some of his dad's girlfriends. His parents R'ed when DD was 13, and he is now 36. So they have been reconciled for 23 years and appear to have a great marriage. I hear more about their sex life than DD would probably want to know, and they truly seem to have a loving and committed relationship. DD will tell me that when his dad came back, he was a different man -kinder, more loving. He had changed, and that change has been permanent. I met his dad 10 years after he came back, and he has always been a soft-spoken, kind man. 

2) One of the only friends that has stuck with me since DDay is my friend T. I did not know till after my A that T's husband had an affair 5 years ago. She struggled a bit about staying friends with me, since as you all know, her being a BS was a horrible thing for her. But she has told me she sees that I am remorseful and working to change myself, and so she is still my friend. Five years ago, she took her infant son and moved back with her parents for several months after learning of her husband's affair. Over time, they R'ed. They have since had 2 more children, and they are doing well. When my A came to light, she told me that they both looked to each other and said, "We're ok, right?" That was a relief to hear, that it's not a constant topic of conversation and they have gotten beyond it. It wasn't easy, and T was who I would check in with before TAM when I was trying to understand DD's feelings and behavior.

So those are the real life stories I know of successful R's. Anyone else know of any? This forum, by its very nature is a bit one-sided. I am open to whatever encouragement anyone can give.


----------



## larry.gray

EI said:


> I apologized in advance for anyone that I might upset. Again, it was absolutely NOT my intention to cause any BS more pain than they have already endured. It hurts me to think that my words caused you to cringe or feel pain. I have my very own precious BS and I see the pain in his eyes every day. It breaks my heart.


No no no... That's not what I meant and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. Why I cringed is because I was really worried that you'd be beat up! I think you said something that need to be said here. Something that would be hard for a recent BS to read, but still something that need to be said here.


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> No no no... That's not what I meant and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. Why I cringed is because I was really worried that you'd be beat up! I think you said something that need to be said here. Something that would be hard for a recent BS to read, but still something that need to be said here.


Larry, the way I see it is what EI said is pretty much common sense. If your spouse is complaining about issues in your marriage, then you need to address those issues, one way or another. Having said that, it would be well to recognize that EVERY marriage has issues, ( sometimes serious ones) but not every marriage has infidelity. I don't subscribe to the new age idea of victimless crime. If you cheat, you are to blame for it, because you COULD have handled it in a better, more honest way. 
In my situation, my marriage was much like EI's, we had argued about issues and neither of us were willing to work on those issues, and so there was a dis-connect between us, plus a sense of complacency and inevitability. Because of that dis-connect, I wasn't as aware of the seriousness of her anger and despair as I should have been. But she chose to cheat, instead of taking the honest way and either separating or divorcing. I will give her a mulligan for our marriage issues, but not for the affair. What should be recognized is the difference between marriage issues and the choice to cheat. One, in no way , justifies the other or lessens the blame for it. This is my opinion and incidently my Sweetie's position as well. We have talked this over several times. One of the first things her therapist told her was that there is NO excuse for cheating. Period. But, this doesn't give me a whip to beat her with either. Too many times BS's will play the "blame card", to reinforce their moral accendency over the WS. I don't know of a single happy marriage where brow-beating can be viewed as a positive thing. Right after D-day, I knew that I would not be able to R, as I was too filled with anger and disgust. But I never blamed her for our marriage issues, nor did I use her cheating as a method of control. I ended our marriage, rather than be her jailer. What kind of marriage would that be?
An analogy of what my Sweetie has done is that she has gotten down on her knees and SCRUBBED OUT The cheating. She has worked on Erasing it for 2 years. Deep , hard, soul-rending work. Without a kind word, without hope, but with one goal in mind. To show her true love and desire for me and to prove that I am the most important thing in her world. What kind of man would I be, if I now used her affair to abuse her? On the contrary. I honor her and value her INFINITELY more now, than ever before. I have forgiven her the affair, and will not hold it over her head. The past is done with. Time to live for tommorrow.


----------



## ChangingMe

Rough day today. DD is struggling. I don't feel well, and I have a fundraiser that I have to put on a happy face for this evening. I didn't sleep well, and I imagine he did not either. 

Only good thing is that my IC double-booked yesterday and moved me to today, so I am on my way there now. I need it more today than I did yesterday, so I'm glad about it now. 

Could use some prayers, TAMily. Thank you.


----------



## daisygirl 41

ChangingMe said:


> Rough day today. DD is struggling. I don't feel well, and I have a fundraiser that I have to put on a happy face for this evening. I didn't sleep well, and I imagine he did not either.
> 
> Only good thing is that my IC double-booked yesterday and moved me to today, so I am on my way there now. I need it more today than I did yesterday, so I'm glad about it now.
> 
> Could use some prayers, TAMily. Thank you.


(((((Hugs)))))) and prayers heading your way x
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

CM it will pass..I know it's hard to believe but it will, in the meantime even tho you probably feel like throwing up. Keep your chin up, stay positive and remind him that you love him and why you love him and that you'll never hurt him again. Praying for you two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Prayers CM,give him some time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Yep M&M,tow trucks and wreckers we call them.
> The tow truck was a Chevy Siverado 3500 4x4.
> Let the jokes fly.
> What do you Brits call a tugboat?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We call them tugboats.:rofl:

Looks like an all round useful truck, btw!


----------



## TCSRedhead

I've been a silent lurker on this thread. I find it helpful to understand the ups and downs in reconciliation and repair and inspirational to see the success stories. Thank you all for sharing!


----------



## calvin

TCSRedhead said:


> I've been a silent lurker on this thread. I find it helpful to understand the ups and downs in reconciliation and repair and inspirational to see the success stories. Thank you all for sharing!


Success? No but getting there. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Hey CM -

Remember this: There's no such thing as a failure who keeps trying.

Never give up, never give in.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Ok I'm having a BAD day my friends. I also have a confession to make. 
For those of you who know my story, you'll know my H hasn't been in work for some months. I said here that he was on sickness, in fact he has been suspended from his job. I didn't want to say anything because I've been paranoid about anyone I know reading it here. Crazy I know! Anyway his disciplinary hearing is tomorrow and I am so worried he is going to lose his job. I've just had enough. Enough of the stress and worry, I just feel so down. I don't know what we will do if he loses his job!
Remeber his exAP is a co worker? Well part of the suspension is to do with that, the rest is malicious crap from other co workers. I won't go into too much detail but he's had some excellent witness statements and his union rep seems to think he will just get a written warning, but I just can't help but think the worse!

EI I esp want to apologise to you. I didn't mean to lie about the situation, you've given me so much support. I just don't think I wanted to 'say it out loud' if you know what I mean.

This is going to be a real test on our marriage and our reconciliation. I hope we can make it. I'll let you all know when I hear anything
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Daisygirl, that has to be hard. I hope all goes well tomorrow. I understand your desire to keep things quiet -there's a lot of stuff on this forum and in our lives that we aren't proud of. Please keep us posted on the outcome. I will be thinking of you both.


----------



## ChangingMe

I don't know how to help DD with his anger. Over the past couple hours, he has been texting me some, and it is jokey and somewhat light. But he's posting such angry things on here, and I don't know what to do.

He has backed out of going to my work event tonight.


----------



## daisygirl 41

EI I've PMd you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

ChangingMe said:


> Daisygirl, that has to be hard. I hope all goes well tomorrow. I understand your desire to keep things quiet -there's a lot of stuff on this forum and in our lives that we aren't proud of. Please keep us posted on the outcome. I will be thinking of you both.


Thankyou. Looks like you and DD are having a rough time too. This really sucks at times!
Hang on in there hon 
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

daisygirl 41 said:


> Ok I'm having a BAD day my friends. I also have a confession to make.
> For those of you who know my story, you'll know my H hasn't been in work for some months. I said here that he was on sickness, in fact he has been suspended from his job. I didn't want to say anything because I've been paranoid about anyone I know reading it here. Crazy I know! Anyway his disciplinary hearing is tomorrow and I am so worried he is going to lose his job. I've just had enough. Enough of the stress and worry, I just feel so down. I don't know what we will do if he loses his job!
> Remeber his exAP is a co worker? Well part of the suspension is to do with that, the rest is malicious crap from other co workers. I won't go into too much detail but he's had some excellent witness statements and his union rep seems to think he will just get a written warning, but I just can't help but think the worse!
> 
> EI I esp want to apologise to you. I didn't mean to lie about the situation, you've given me so much support. I just don't think I wanted to 'say it out loud' if you know what I mean.
> 
> This is going to be a real test on our marriage and our reconciliation. I hope we can make it. I'll let you all know when I hear anything
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll be praying..as long as he doesn't give up he still has a chance. I can imagine the stress though..btw I feel the same way about posting all the crap about my last job but I'm in private section..makes me feel safer. Hope he gets to keep his job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

TCSRedhead said:


> I've been a silent lurker on this thread. I find it helpful to understand the ups and downs in reconciliation and repair and inspirational to see the success stories. Thank you all for sharing!


Hi welcome, this is an interesting thread. I love it here. Feel free to vent or chat or tell us your story 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> I don't know how to help DD with his anger. Over the past couple hours, he has been texting me some, and it is jokey and somewhat light. But he's posting such angry things on here, and I don't know what to do.
> 
> He has backed out of going to my work event tonight.


I know it sucks but hang in there and let him be for a while and hopefully he will get in a better mood. I'm praying for ya.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> I'll be praying..as long as he doesn't give up he still has a chance. I can imagine the stress though..btw I feel the same way about posting all the crap about my last job but I'm in private section..makes me feel safer. Hope he gets to keep his job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks CSS, I appreciate your support.
It's going to be a long day tomorrow!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thanks CSS, I appreciate your support.
> It's going to be a long day tomorrow!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


let us know how it goes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

seren, it looks like he is making excuses yet keeps doing it. You have every right to snoop. He feels he's getting away with it and it looks like he's not gonna stop. Until you kick his butt to the curve he will not stop. He is not taking you seriously. You just keep letting it slide every time. He has no consequences. He does not deserve any privacy, he should be totally transparent if he's willing to reconcile. I would kick his but out and let him figure out if you are important enough to him to stop his behavior. Counseling won't enven help untill you do this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Daisy,I'm union also,a steelworker but belong to the Teamsters,go figure.
If the steward says it looks like a written warning then that is more than likely the case.
A company is afraid to take it to arbitration for fear of losing the case and paying back wages.
I think your hubby will be just fine.
I dont see them getting rid of him,causes a lot of problems for the company.
Hang in there and God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## serenesoul

CantSitStill said:


> seren, it looks like he is making excuses yet keeps doing it. You have every right to snoop. He feels he's getting away with it and it looks like he's not gonna stop. Until you kick his butt to the curve he will not stop. He is not taking you seriously. You just keep letting it slide every time. He has no consequences. He does not deserve any privacy, he should be totally transparent if he's willing to reconcile. I would kick his but out and let him figure out if you are important enough to him to stop his behavior. Counseling won't enven help untill you do this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. Guess he's not worth it...at all.


----------



## CantSitStill

serenesoul said:


> Thank you. Guess he's not worth it...at all.


hey did you delete your last post? I don't see it anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## serenesoul

CantSitStill said:


> hey did you delete your last post? I don't see it anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I created a thread.


----------



## CantSitStill

ok what's the name of it and where is it..I'd like others to be able to help you with this. Sorry you are in this situation but am glad you found this site.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

ChangingMe said:


> I don't know how to help DD with his anger. Over the past couple hours, he has been texting me some, and it is jokey and somewhat light. But he's posting such angry things on here, and I don't know what to do.
> 
> He has backed out of going to my work event tonight.


It comes and goes. I know from my own experience.

Years (and I mean years) after my wife's affair I suddenly lost it. Something had triggered me. She was shocked and didn't have a clue what it was about. And, to be honest, neither did I, really...

I apologised to her.


----------



## EI

Decorum said:


> A personal invitation to join a thread family, that is so kind, I feel like the new kid on the block who was asked to join in with everyone,
> 
> I ACCEPT!
> 
> Can I do a quick intro?
> 
> I’m married (25+) with four children BGBG ages 17-24.
> 
> I was out of work for 9 month and I am now employed out of town (about 2 hours away) and I come home when I am off. I work 4 days 3 days so I’m off 5 & 2 days.
> 
> My wife and I have not had to deal with the difficulty of infidelity as many of you have, and before I came to TAM honestly I had no idea how painful it was. My younger sister with whom I am very close went through it with her husband and it was a nightmare but I know now she went through more than I realized.
> 
> I have not seen her since I joined TAM, she lives several states away, but I will talk to her when I see her in person next.
> 
> BTW they have reconciled and moved on really well, which I realize now is a bigger accomplishment that I could imagine.
> 
> My wife and I have had our struggles, she became afflicted with Multiple Sclerosis about 19 years ago and to be honest with job changes trying to raise 4 teenagers and her illness we had a “LOST DECADE”, together.
> 
> I really felt there were no good years left, just fake it till you make it, when I stumbled on TAM I learned some things that made a difference.
> 
> My wife would tell you that I’m a good father, provider, and overall a good man, but our relationship was upside down. I was a passive nice guy, and she has a strong personality. As her MS progressed it made it hard on our relationship.
> 
> Finding TAM came at the right time, I/we righted the ship and it renewed our relationship.
> 
> We have 3 in college and our youngest grads HS this year and off she will go, and I am actually looking forward to the remaining years now.
> 
> Btw we have bought a house in the city where I work and when our youngest grads my wife will join me here. (Actually I’m home now, yea)
> 
> I just redid my profile, I had started a thread to post your pets and the thread activity only lasted aday.
> 
> I had posted a picture of my youngest daughter (17 yrs) and me working with our new thoroughbred (her new 4H horse for this year, her last year in 4H )on it. So when I deleted it,
> 
> I put that up in my profile, I don’t know if I will leave it up, I’m a bit old school about these things.
> But please stop by if you like and see what I have shared.
> 
> Well Thanks for the space!
> 
> Take care!


Thank you so much for joining our group and for giving us such an informative intro...... Your story is an amazing one and all I can say is that although you and your wife were not spared the stresses of life, ultimately, you handled them very well. I admire that.

So, let's see..... you have four children between the ages of 17-24. We have 5 children between the ages of 17-25 (and one grandson.) You described yourself as being a passive nice guy with a wife with a strong personality..... Hmmm, B1 and I don't know *ANY* couples like that... do we, B1? 

With your wife at home raising the children, and dealing with a chronic disease, while you were busy working and having to live away from your family, you have had your share of life's ups and downs. I would love for you to continue sharing more of your story on this thread. I wish that I could say that B1 and I had managed to handle the stresses of our life as well as you and your wife. Unfortunately, we did not. So, we find ourselves on the CWI forum on TAM. We're learning everything we can from TAM and trying to give something back when/if we can.


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> EI I esp want to apologise to you. I didn't mean to lie about the situation, you've given me so much support. I just don't think I wanted to 'say it out loud' if you know what I mean.
> 
> This is going to be a real test on our marriage and our reconciliation. I hope we can make it. I'll let you all know when I hear anything
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*daisygirl,* you don't owe any of us an apology. I think everyone is a little leery of sharing "so much personal information" on an open public forum. This is very touchy subject matter and the reason that we are all able/willing to share so freely is because it is anonymous. You are free to share or not share whatever information you choose. 

But, _Reconcilers,_ who will admit that even though this is completely anonymous, you still form TAM relationships with certain individuals and you do begin to "care" what others think of you and you do become more guarded about what you share? I'll admit it. I misbehave on other threads a lot more than I do on this thread. When *CM* and DD first began posting and CM was given the _"very warm WS welcome" _ that we WS's are all "greeted" with on TAM,  I couldn't help myself. My heart did go out to her. Of course, it went out to DD, as well, but my heart hurt for her, too. I've walked in her shoes. When she was taking a beating on other threads, I didn't mind showing my "not so sweet" side, at times. But, you guys will always get the best of me! 

I guess that's one of things I love, here, on the Reconciliation thread. We're capable of doling out "*tough* love" when necessary..... but, it's still.... love! 

*daisygirl,* let us know something about your H's job as soon as you find out. My prayers are coming your way.


----------



## Decorum

EI said:


> Thank you so much for joining our group and for giving us such an informative intro...... Your story is an amazing one and all I can say is that although you and your wife were not spared the stresses of life, ultimately, you handled them very well. I admire that.
> 
> So, let's see..... you have four children between the ages of 17-24. We have 5 children between the ages of 17-25 (and one grandson.) You described yourself as being a passive nice guy with a wife with a strong personality..... Hmmm, B1 and I don't know *ANY* couples like that... do we, B1?
> 
> With your wife at home raising the children, and dealing with a chronic disease, while you were busy working and having to live away from your family, you have had your share of life's ups and downs. I would love for you to continue sharing more of your story on this thread. I wish that I could say that B1 and I had managed to handle the stresses of our life as well as you and your wife. Unfortunately, we did not. So, we find ourselves on the CWI forum on TAM. We're learning everything we can from TAM and trying to give something back when/if we can.


Thank you EI and to everyone else as well.



EI said:


> Hmmm, B1 and I don't know *ANY* couples like that... do we, B1?


HA HA thats too funny, B1 and I will have to compare notes.

Hey I'm home and there is plenty to do as we get this house ready to sell, I get less time on the computer when I'm home but I will share more since you ask, sometime.

I work 12 hrs days(7pm to 7am) when I'm on, and I program and operate computer controled inspection equipment for one of the big three auto-makers,
so I usually have a TAM window open and lurk in between what I'm doing.

I usually labor over my posts because I truly feel the weight of posting somthing here considering the issues involved.


Opps I'll have to finish this later, Thanks again for the welcome all


----------



## daisygirl 41

calvin said:


> Daisy,I'm union also,a steelworker but belong to the Teamsters,go figure.
> If the steward says it looks like a written warning then that is more than likely the case.
> A company is afraid to take it to arbitration for fear of losing the case and paying back wages.
> I think your hubby will be just fine.
> I dont see them getting rid of him,causes a lot of problems for the company.
> Hang in there and God bless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thankyou Calvin for your kind words.
H works in the public sector so I think it works a bit different than the private sector.
He could be instantly dismissed with no pay! BUT I know I can't think like that and I know H will give it his all tomorrow. He's gone through all the documentation with a fine tooth comb and he has a very good case!
Will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.
Not sure what the procedure is though, whether they will inform him in writing or if he will be told there and then? Will just have to wait and see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thankyou Calvin for your kind words.
> H works in the public sector so I think it works a bit different than the private sector.
> He could be instantly dismissed with no pay! BUT I know I can't think like that and I know H will give it his all tomorrow. He's gone through all the documentation with a fine tooth comb and he has a very good case!
> Will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.
> Not sure what the procedure is though, whether they will inform him in writing or if he will be told there and then? Will just have to wait and see.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It can be a process going through the different step but it usually gets resolved quick.
Let us know,sorry that you guys have this on your mind.
I'm sure they'll put him on probation if that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Whoa...this thread is moving along fast...I didn't get on here at all today from work and I got several pages behind. 

DG I'm praying and hoping the best for your husbands job. I think Calvin is probably right about what he can expect, hope so anyway.

To all the new posters, thanks for posting and please please keep it coming, share away, offer support, offer opinions, tell us how you feel, what you think etc. It's all part of R and this thread.

I have FINALLY started associating some of my triggers with EI and me, instead of EI and the Xom. I have heard several songs lately and when they played before took me to visions of them. Now, it's visions of me and EI. 

Certain words would even trigger me, foreplay, being one of them. I would hear it, see it and think of EI and the xOM...now I think of EI and me. It's not perfect, it can still be a little bothersome but thing is, it is changing now, for the better. We are almost at 8 months out and things are much improved in this area, I was worried about it.

I was halfway to work today before even realizing I hadn't thought about "IT" yet. 

EI still triggers bad if I breath heavy, like exhale loudly. She will stop everything and ask if I am ok. Usually, I will say, "hun, I'm just breathing...it's ok" but you can see her stress level is at a 10+ when she's asking me if everything is ok. She has called me at work to ask if I am ok because she thought I was having a bad moment or she thought she heard me. We are very in tune to each other now. 

I love her, I have said it before and I will say it again. I no longer want her to hurt too, want her to feel my pain and haven't in a long time.
I want her to be happy and healthy mind and body. I want a happy healthy wife and marriage. 
We are both finally on the same page in the same book and in the same chapter and I think on the same line 

Well, EI is heading for the tub...Hmmm...think it's time to go now..sorry but EI vs TAM...EI WINS!


----------



## old timer

Ms. OT is headed to FL in the AM to meet OM...

think she's ready for R?

:lol:


----------



## calvin

old timer said:


> Ms. OT is headed to FL in the AM to meet OM...
> 
> think she's ready for R?
> 
> :lol:


Sorry OT.
You might want to change your plans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

old timer said:


> Ms. OT is headed to FL in the AM to meet OM...
> 
> think she's ready for R?
> 
> :lol:


One day at a time OT.

Focus on you.


----------



## old timer

happyman64 said:


> One day at a time OT.
> 
> Focus on you.


Definitely where my focus has been for the last few weeks,
even more so now, *hm*


----------



## EI

old timer said:


> Definitely where my focus has been for the last few weeks,
> even more so now, *hm*


Don't know what to say old timer, I'm so sorry. HM is right. It's time to focus on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

Consider it done EI


----------



## larry.gray

ChangingMe said:


> I don't know how to help DD with his anger. Over the past couple hours, he has been texting me some, and it is jokey and somewhat light. But he's posting such angry things on here, and I don't know what to do.
> 
> He has backed out of going to my work event tonight.


I'm going to suggest you carefully thing about and answer one of the very hardest questions to answer.  What do you say to this?



> I am afraid to get a divorce and it has nothing to do with CM. But what if I do get out and then realize that I really was still madly in love with her and didn't realize it because of the anger.
> 
> Now she is with some other POS who my kids call dad?
> Couldn't handle it.


Would you commit to some time frame where you would stay single and not become involved with another man _even if DD does become involved himself_?

DD has some really hard decisions to make. You're well aware that he's got to decide and neither answer is good. That's where much of the anger comes from. _This is your hard decision._ Would you be willing? It's a hell of a risk to take. They don't always have a happy ending like Rookie.


----------



## larry.gray

I'll add one more bit CM: I'm not pushing you to go for one way or the other. What I'm suggesting is that you decide in your heart what you feel and tell it to DD.


----------



## Decorum

ChangingMe said:


> Welcome, Decorum!
> 
> Thank you first for posting on DD's thread. I think your posts are valuable, and even if they don't fully resonate with DD, they help others (including myself). I think you are respectful in your posts and your views, and I very much appreciate that.
> 
> .. Horses are my love, and while I have taken lessons off and on since the age of 11, I have never owned my own, which is a dream of mine. Someday . . .
> 
> 
> That's me next to Jamie, with my sweet DD at my side next to Adam.


Thank you ChangingMe,

/father bragging on
My daughters passion is horses, she is looking at schools in Kentucky to pursue an equine management degree, she is a cracker jack rider, loves hunter under saddle/jumping and cowboy contesting.
She has trained several horses, start to finish.
Dont tell anyone but we totally posed for that pic, I picked up the crop because it was handy.
Once she starts training it she dosnt want ANYONE else to work with her horse, she really is a sweetheart but she has this little independent/stubborn streak that she comes by honestly (her mother ha ha).
There is a lot more to riding than most people are aware of, and she is amazing, I'm not just saying that cause I'm her dad.
/father bragging off

Cm I have followed yours and DD story all along, and can only hope and pray for Gods mercy for you both to work it out.

Lately I have sensed more struggle in you, than before, and of course saw DD ups and downs, I can only pray.

Its funny you mention my posts not resonating with him, and I recognize that. To be honest DD reminds me of my older brother (from what I can tell from posts on an internet site), and while my brother and I have affection we are wired soo different that we just never connect well, ha ha. I did see the picture over there and DD even resembles my bro. (Whats with Jamie, too cool to smile?, It was nice to to see the two of you, seeing a face takes away the enigma and makes someone a real person.


Anyway DD asked me to elaborate on somthing and I was holding off, but after your post I went back and tried to make myself clear.

I dont bruse easily so let me know anytime somthing I am saying is detrimental.

Btw, may I ask; is DD a second born?

I think the fact that dd can isolate and identify anger as his primary experience is a really good thing, its seems intense, but the path you need to take is easier to find if you know where you are. I really like carmen_Ohio's post on pg162.

Anyway,

Thanks again for your encouraging words, 

Take care!


Edited to add:
Yikes!! I just saw the posts above by Lary Grey, it was not there when I started, its a heavy post, I'm not commenting on it but I dont want to be trite by posting my reply to cm here without acknowledging it, I hope everyone understands, thx.


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thankyou Calvin for your kind words.
> H works in the public sector so I think it works a bit different than the private sector.
> He could be instantly dismissed with no pay! BUT I know I can't think like that and I know H will give it his all tomorrow. He's gone through all the documentation with a fine tooth comb and he has a very good case!
> Will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.
> Not sure what the procedure is though, whether they will inform him in writing or if he will be told there and then? Will just have to wait and see.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thinking of you and your H today, dg. anything that threatens your job like this is soooo stressful. there was a time when layoffs, funding cuts, etc affected both me and my H at the same time and i was a wreck. fingers crossed that it will go the way calvin has described -- as you say, he has a good case! look forward to hearing an update later....


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> I don't know how to help DD with his anger. Over the past couple hours, he has been texting me some, and it is jokey and somewhat light. But he's posting such angry things on here, and I don't know what to do.
> 
> He has backed out of going to my work event tonight.


how is it going today, CM? i've just figured out that DD's texts are on another thread (i know -- i catch on kind of slowly sometimes!) so i'm going to try to catch up today on the other parts of your situation.

in the meantime, hang in there <3


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hello my friends,
A very quick update: DH has had a written warning but his job is safe. I am so relieved I can't tell you.
Of course going back to work brings up other issues (Ex OW is still there), but we can deal with that tomorrow. For today the anxiety has subsided. 
He's been off work for 8 months. Long enough to really strengthen our marriage again and to help us move forward. So the suspension hasn't been all bad!
His union rep is going to arrange support for H at work, and is going to put the feelers out for a transfer for him to another school.

Thankyou all my lovely friends for your kind words and support. 
For today, all is good in the daisygirl household!
Xxxxxx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hello my friends,
> A very quick update: DH has had a written warning but his job is safe. I am so relieved I can't tell you.
> Of course going back to work brings up other issues (Ex OW is still there), but we can deal with that tomorrow. For today the anxiety has subsided.
> He's been off work for 8 months. Long enough to really strengthen our marriage again and to help us move forward. So the suspension hasn't been all bad!
> His union rep is going to arrange support for H at work, and is going to put the feelers out for a transfer for him to another school.
> 
> Thankyou all my lovely friends for your kind words and support.
> For today, all is good in the daisygirl household!
> Xxxxxx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## bfree

margrace said:


> :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


Mega ditto

Glad to hear it Daisy. I hope everything is smooth sailing from here.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

old timer said:


> Ms. OT is headed to FL in the AM to meet OM...
> 
> think she's ready for R?
> 
> :lol:


I am _so_ sorry this is happening to you. That's all I can say, that, and I can relate.


----------



## CantSitStill

So glad to hear Daisy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

CM I'm sorry things have been unstable with DD lately, and that he backed out of your work event. I was so lucky to have Matt come to mine, even in the midst of his anger. I just keep thinking of you both and sending my positive energy your way. I would be reassured that he is still communicating with you in any way, and sharing his anger here. As someone (Acabado maybe?) pointed out on my thread, anger is far, FAR better than indifference.

Matt messaged me this morning beginning a list of the grievous lies I told him from May-November. I am grateful that he is including me in the process, as he sorts through all the incredibly hurtful things I have done. I really want to know what he is struggling with, what hurts him the most, what is weighing on his mind so I can be a better support and loving partner to him.

I will admit, it will be awful to read the things he remembers me saying and doing, and know that I just constantly lied, lied, lied when given every opportunity to be honest. I was too afraid, trying to minimize the damage, trying to hide what I thought I was feeling, etc. It's so selfish and horrifying. Of course, I am afraid that when he lays out all these lies in black and white it will ruin any minuscule chance I have of earning back his love and trust. That they will be too big to surmount. But I also try to balance that with hope that he is still including me, that he is looking and and trying to assimilate all the aspects of my affair, and I know there is no hope for us if that doesn't happen. 

I want Matt to heal from this, to find a path through his pain and anger. I don't know if we will still have a relationship at the end of it, at least maybe not the relationship that I am working toward and hoping for. But we will be tied to each other for life through our beautiful little boy, and we both need to deal with what I've done for us to successfully co-parent in any format.

My thoughts are also with DG and her husband, Pidge and Joe, and everyone else who are facing different struggles right now in their lives. I'm grateful for the positive thoughts and experiences shared here by B1 and EI, Calvin and CSS, bfree, Acabado, MrBlunt and so many others. May our hearts and minds stay strong and focused on positive evolution together.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Well, it looks like it's time for me to work on me, based on the posts I've seen here today.

Last night, WW helped OM to get on Facebook. He's such a computer idiot that she had to talk him through every step. So there's just one more way they can stay in touch. 

I'm just not ready to talk divorce with her. She knows now that if things continue, this is going to be over. When, I don't know. I think it's back to the 180 for me, and she will have to deal with that. She still thinks she can have a "normal friendship" with him on some level. 

I have pulled out of my depression, and am working very hard on my music, thinking about doing some recording again, gotta start writing songs again. "Me" is doing pretty well on a lot of levels. But "us" is in a stalemate. And she still just doesn't get it.

After reading about DD and his thoughts about having a revenge affair in "She Cheated - I Hate My Life", I'm thinking about this a lot myself.
I know it would be wrong, and would not make anything better. Maybe just thinking about it is a comfort right now. I don't know. Very confused, but dedicated to making my life good, regardless of what happens with her.

Fire away...


----------



## calvin

Yeah bobka,my POSOM is a well rounded idiot all the way.
Christ,trade me for him,for a semi homeless loser who's broke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Well, it looks like it's time for me to work on me, based on the posts I've seen here today.
> 
> Last night, WW helped OM to get on Facebook. He's such a computer idiot that she had to talk him through every step. So there's just one more way they can stay in touch.
> 
> I'm just not ready to talk divorce with her. She knows now that if things continue, this is going to be over. When, I don't know. I think it's back to the 180 for me, and she will have to deal with that. She still thinks she can have a "normal friendship" with him on some level.
> 
> I have pulled out of my depression, and am working very hard on my music, thinking about doing some recording again, gotta start writing songs again. "Me" is doing pretty well on a lot of levels. But "us" is in a stalemate. And she still just doesn't get it.
> 
> After reading about DD and his thoughts about having a revenge affair in "She Cheated - I Hate My Life", I'm thinking about this a lot myself.
> I know it would be wrong, and would not make anything better. Maybe just thinking about it is a comfort right now. I don't know. Very confused, but dedicated to making my life good, regardless of what happens with her.
> 
> Fire away...


Matt's 180 made a huge impact on me. It made me recognize how much I valued the man he ALREADY was, in addition to what he was doing to make himself feel better after I destroyed him. For me, I couldn't be honest and open and face up to my actions until I felt like there was nothing left for me to lose. It's terrible that I had to be pushed to that point, but there it is. I am so sorry your wife can't see what she is doing to the two of you. I am glad that you can find some happiness and enjoyment in YOU, and I hope (since you really seem to want to find a way to renew your relationship with your wife) that she finally "gets it" before too much pain and damage has been caused to each of you.


----------



## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Well, it looks like it's time for me to work on me, based on the posts I've seen here today.
> 
> Last night, WW helped OM to get on Facebook. He's such a computer idiot that she had to talk him through every step. So there's just one more way they can stay in touch.
> 
> I'm just not ready to talk divorce with her. She knows now that if things continue, this is going to be over. When, I don't know. I think it's back to the 180 for me, and she will have to deal with that. She still thinks she can have a "normal friendship" with him on some level.
> 
> I have pulled out of my depression, and am working very hard on my music, thinking about doing some recording again, gotta start writing songs again. "Me" is doing pretty well on a lot of levels. But "us" is in a stalemate. And she still just doesn't get it.
> 
> After reading about DD and his thoughts about having a revenge affair in "She Cheated - I Hate My Life", I'm thinking about this a lot myself.
> I know it would be wrong, and would not make anything better. Maybe just thinking about it is a comfort right now. I don't know. Very confused, but dedicated to making my life good, regardless of what happens with her.
> 
> Fire away...


No need to fire away. You are now and have been causing the demise of a marriage that could be saved fairly easily. What you are in essence doing is standing by and watching someone bleed to death. You won't lift a finger to save them and you won't put them out of their agony. What you fail to understand is that when you did at one point put your foot down and your wife reacted negatively that was exactly what was supposed to happen. Had you continued to hold your frame she would have eventually dropped her friend and come to you as a wife should. But you caved and now she knows you have no backbone to hold her accountable. You won't divorce her and she knows it. This is your life and it will be until you die. You chose it, it didn't choose you.


----------



## Rookie4

Something has been on my mind for a couple of weeks, and I want to get it out there to my TAM friends. Actually I got side-tracked by my toes, but it is still something to think about.
We sometimes tend to maximize the pain infidelity causes the BS and minimize that pain which the WS suffers, especially if they are NORMALLY good people, who have made a horrible choice.
Sweetie and I were talking and I asked her about her words to me on D-day and what she told her co-workers. This is what she said........
I told you those things because I was filled with anger and despair and sadness, because I believed that our marriage was a sham and you didn't seem to care or love me anymore.. I wanted you to hurt like I was hurting. Brad was just the weapon I used to hurt you and the drug I used to make myself feel like I was alive.
I said those things to the ladies at work , because I was whistling in the dark. I was terrified that I had done something that would destroy my family and I realized that I had lost my only love, forever. It was my pride talking and I tried to think positive about it but pride is no substitute for true love. (this is a lesson we all should learn)
I asked her when she realized this and she said it was 3 days after D-day. I allowed her to come home to get some clothes and things for work. She said that when she entered the house she almost could not walk, she was sobbing so hard. She says that it was at that moment that she fully realized what she had done, to herself, to the kids , but most of all, to me. She said that she wanted to die, and that if it had not been for the kids , she might have killed herself. ( Very sobering to hear, because I know her and she means every word) It was at that moment that she ended any contact with Brad, took her things to her parents house and sought therapy to help her with her issues and to ease her pain.
WS's DO suffer, sometimes their suffering is so great that it will motivate them to be better people. Sweetie is that kind of woman. I'm trying really hard, but sometimes I wonder if she will EVER fully forgive herself


----------



## joe kidd

I just need to stop guessing as to what she is thinking. She says she wants to be with me. She has shown she wants to be with me.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

joe kidd said:


> I just need to stop guessing as to what she is thinking. She says she wants to be with me. She has shown she wants to be with me.


Captain Obvious here: Actions speak louder than words. 

Be the best Joe Kidd you can be, and let Pidge be the best Pidge she can be.


----------



## Decorum

Rookie that is so well said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Well, long time no see. CM and PM’ers, thank you for asking. I have been reluctant in posting, simply because I didn’t know what to write. I have been on the emotional roller coaster for a couple of weeks now, and haven’t been able to drag myself out of it. And since I ran out of IC hours, I have been on my own.
On the plus side of things, wife and I have had a few minor talks about our marriage. The negative side is that they didn’t end well. I have been increasingly frustrated about it all, so CM, I am right there where DD is, so I feel for him and understand his thoughts, I think. I also feel for you, because from where I sit, you do everything in your power to make it up to both of you again and be a better person. I commend you for that and I would and could be so happy if I had a wife who could do that.

The fact is; I don’t. I see more and more clearly how selfish she is. She has always been like that, I just didn’t notice back in the old days because I loved her endlessly. Now that our love has been tainted, I do see it. Same goes for our differences in core values. They didn’t matter one bit to me before, because the differences made us strong together as a team – not so much anymore, since our team spirit is fading these days. I noticed one remark from her in one of our talks, she said “I just don’t think that much about it – you do, we’re different in that aspect”. And in another talk “You’re a thinker, I’m a doer, we just don’t handle things the same way”. This bothers me a lot, because it’s the fact that she doesn’t think things through that got us into this mess in the first place. And if she can’t see the problem with that, she will end up doing the exact same thing again, I guess.

She hasn’t been doing anything that triggers suspicion in me, she just won’t do anything actively to get us through this together – so I can’t figure out her intentions at all. She claims that she loves me and will never cheat again, and she is frustrated when I don’t wear my wedding band. I have told her I will, when she can show me that she will fight for me. Until then, it stays in my drawer.

Now; I’ve been thinking to get back on track. The times I have been feeling good are the times when I have accepted the fact that we will not grow old together, when I have been working on me and concentrated on the present moment for me and my kids. And the kids are my main motivator for working through this. As late as yesterday, my son at 9 asked why we don’t visit a couple of friends who are now separated (infidelity), and when I told him the reason, he said quietly “I am so sorry for their boys, I sure hope that you and mom will never divorce….” I couldn’t say anything sitting there in the dark in the car, but I had tears in my eyes, and I just stroked him on his little head.
I'm prepared to take one day at a time, thinking about my lovely, happy and growing children. I don’t hate my wife, in fact I believe I still love her, she’s an amazing person in so many ways, that I can take plenty of joy and happiness from it. I just think I need to prepare myself for future separation and keep myself from dreaming too much about the future. Defence mechanism?

Some may say, why don’t you just divorce and move on. Well, I just can’t do that at the moment, but I find myself thinking about it from time to time, I didn’t in the first year past DD. And when I do, I immediately feel crappy because I then start looking for small signs that she will come around, and I would be very, very happy to stay with her forever.

Sorry about the length and sadness in this post, but it’s where I am at this moment, tomorrow may be better though. I would appreciate thoughts and perspectives, new ways of thinking to shine some light on this - meanwhile I'll start searching for some more IC-time.


----------



## Rookie4

joe kidd said:


> I just need to stop guessing as to what she is thinking. She says she wants to be with me. She has shown she wants to be with me.


What else matters? You two can make this happen. Sure it's tough, but you are tough people and can do it. I once drove an F-150 over a 20 foot cliff, it was tough and both the f-150 and I suffered some damage, but I did it.


----------



## ChangingMe

in a very low place

thinking of you all, but don't have the energy to respond


----------



## Rookie4

Decorum said:


> Rookie that is so well said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Decorum, AS much as I would like to, I can't take much credit . Those were mostly Sweetie's words and feelings. My new Sweetie is truly a prize worth fighting for and having, isn't she?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

cpacan said:


> Well, long time no see. CM and PM’ers, thank you for asking. I have been reluctant in posting, simply because I didn’t know what to write. I have been on the emotional roller coaster for a couple of weeks now, and haven’t been able to drag myself out of it. And since I ran out of IC hours, I have been on my own.
> On the plus side of things, wife and I have had a few minor talks about our marriage. The negative side is that they didn’t end well. I have been increasingly frustrated about it all, so CM, I am right there where DD is, so I feel for him and understand his thoughts, I think. I also feel for you, because from where I sit, you do everything in your power to make it up to both of you again and be a better person. I commend you for that and I would and could be so happy if I had a wife who could do that.
> 
> The fact is; I don’t. I see more and more clearly how selfish she is. She has always been like that, I just didn’t notice back in the old days because I loved her endlessly. Now that our love has been tainted, I do see it. Same goes for our differences in core values. They didn’t matter one bit to me before, because the differences made us strong together as a team – not so much anymore, since our team spirit is fading these days. I noticed one remark from her in one of our talks, she said “I just don’t think that much about it – you do, we’re different in that aspect”. And in another talk “You’re a thinker, I’m a doer, we just don’t handle things the same way”. This bothers me a lot, because it’s the fact that she doesn’t think things through that got us into this mess in the first place. And if she can’t see the problem with that, she will end up doing the exact same thing again, I guess.
> 
> She hasn’t been doing anything that triggers suspicion in me, she just won’t do anything actively to get us through this together – so I can’t figure out her intentions at all. She claims that she loves me and will never cheat again, and she is frustrated when I don’t wear my wedding band. I have told her I will, when she can show me that she will fight for me. Until then, it stays in my drawer.
> 
> Now; I’ve been thinking to get back on track. The times I have been feeling good are the times when I have accepted the fact that we will not grow old together, when I have been working on me and concentrated on the present moment for me and my kids. And the kids are my main motivator for working through this. As late as yesterday, my son at 9 asked why we don’t visit a couple of friends who are now separated (infidelity), and when I told him the reason, he said quietly “I am so sorry for their boys, I sure hope that you and mom will never divorce….” I couldn’t say anything sitting there in the dark in the car, but I had tears in my eyes, and I just stroked him on his little head.
> I'm prepared to take one day at a time, thinking about my lovely, happy and growing children. I don’t hate my wife, in fact I believe I still love her, she’s an amazing person in so many ways, that I can take plenty of joy and happiness from it. I just think I need to prepare myself for future separation and keep myself from dreaming too much about the future. Defence mechanism?
> 
> Some may say, why don’t you just divorce and move on. Well, I just can’t do that at the moment, but I find myself thinking about it from time to time, I didn’t in the first year past DD. And when I do, I immediately feel crappy because I then start looking for small signs that she will come around, and I would be very, very happy to stay with her forever.
> 
> Sorry about the length and sadness in this post, but it’s where I am at this moment, tomorrow may be better though. I would appreciate thoughts and perspectives, new ways of thinking to shine some light on this - meanwhile I'll start searching for some more IC-time.


*This*, just every bit of this. 

Man, I SO feel for you. Stay strong.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

ChangingMe said:


> in a very low place
> 
> thinking of you all, but don't have the energy to respond


((((((HUGS)))))) from me and your R buddies.


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> in a very low place
> 
> thinking of you all, but don't have the energy to respond


CM, I don't have any magic wand, but I do know that you are a pretty good person, and that you WILL make a better future, for your family and yourself. Hang in there, Sweetheart, it will pass.


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## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> Well, long time no see. CM and PM’ers, thank you for asking. I have been reluctant in posting, simply because I didn’t know what to write. I have been on the emotional roller coaster for a couple of weeks now, and haven’t been able to drag myself out of it. And since I ran out of IC hours, I have been on my own.
> On the plus side of things, wife and I have had a few minor talks about our marriage. The negative side is that they didn’t end well. I have been increasingly frustrated about it all, so CM, I am right there where DD is, so I feel for him and understand his thoughts, I think. I also feel for you, because from where I sit, you do everything in your power to make it up to both of you again and be a better person. I commend you for that and I would and could be so happy if I had a wife who could do that.
> 
> The fact is; I don’t. I see more and more clearly how selfish she is. She has always been like that, I just didn’t notice back in the old days because I loved her endlessly. Now that our love has been tainted, I do see it. Same goes for our differences in core values. They didn’t matter one bit to me before, because the differences made us strong together as a team – not so much anymore, since our team spirit is fading these days. I noticed one remark from her in one of our talks, she said “I just don’t think that much about it – you do, we’re different in that aspect”. And in another talk “You’re a thinker, I’m a doer, we just don’t handle things the same way”. This bothers me a lot, because it’s the fact that she doesn’t think things through that got us into this mess in the first place. And if she can’t see the problem with that, she will end up doing the exact same thing again, I guess.
> 
> She hasn’t been doing anything that triggers suspicion in me, she just won’t do anything actively to get us through this together – so I can’t figure out her intentions at all. She claims that she loves me and will never cheat again, and she is frustrated when I don’t wear my wedding band. I have told her I will, when she can show me that she will fight for me. Until then, it stays in my drawer.
> 
> Now; I’ve been thinking to get back on track. The times I have been feeling good are the times when I have accepted the fact that we will not grow old together, when I have been working on me and concentrated on the present moment for me and my kids. And the kids are my main motivator for working through this. As late as yesterday, my son at 9 asked why we don’t visit a couple of friends who are now separated (infidelity), and when I told him the reason, he said quietly “I am so sorry for their boys, I sure hope that you and mom will never divorce….” I couldn’t say anything sitting there in the dark in the car, but I had tears in my eyes, and I just stroked him on his little head.
> I'm prepared to take one day at a time, thinking about my lovely, happy and growing children. I don’t hate my wife, in fact I believe I still love her, she’s an amazing person in so many ways, that I can take plenty of joy and happiness from it. I just think I need to prepare myself for future separation and keep myself from dreaming too much about the future. Defence mechanism?
> 
> Some may say, why don’t you just divorce and move on. Well, I just can’t do that at the moment, but I find myself thinking about it from time to time, I didn’t in the first year past DD. And when I do, I immediately feel crappy because I then start looking for small signs that she will come around, and I would be very, very happy to stay with her forever.
> 
> Sorry about the length and sadness in this post, but it’s where I am at this moment, tomorrow may be better though. I would appreciate thoughts and perspectives, new ways of thinking to shine some light on this - meanwhile I'll start searching for some more IC-time.


Sorry to hear this , Dude. I think you should consider D very seriously. Your wife's indifference to R is, in some ways, worse than actual aversion. If she can't or won't understand what her actions have done to you , and if she is indifferent to your suffering, what kind of marriage can you have? Until she feels your pain, you are spinning your wheels. I know that your main concern is your kids, but believe it or not, they will adapt to whatever situation you end up in. I truly believe that two happy, divorced, parents are better than an unhappy marriage of just going through the motions. It's your call. Make sure you are right, then go ahead. I'm pulling for you.:smthumbup:


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## Rookie4

Well, Sweetie just brought me lunch. Salisbury steak Sammidge, sweet potatoe fries with honey mustard sauce, waldorf salad and a tall, cold, Yuengling. She is taking a few days off to nurse me back to health and I'm loving it!!! I'll be back later this evening. See Y'all later.


----------



## Jasel

cpacan said:


> Some may say, why don’t you just divorce and move on. Well, *I just can’t do that at the moment*, but I find myself thinking about it from time to time, I didn’t in the first year past DD. And when I do, I immediately feel crappy because I then start looking for small signs that she will come around, and I would be very, very happy to stay with her forever.


Could you elaborate on this a bit? I just ask because I've read many of your threads and posts and it just seems like your wife doesn't have any interest in R as much as she just doesn't want to get divorced. I just can't see how that winds up working out in the long run.


----------



## happyman64

ChangingMe said:


> in a very low place
> 
> thinking of you all, but don't have the energy to respond


Hang in there CM.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

ChangingMe said:


> in a very low place
> 
> thinking of you all, but don't have the energy to respond


Hang on in there.
((((((( big hug)))))
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

*Mrs. M*
Sharing that list of pain will be VERY tough on him, It, more than likely, won't initially be a good thing, at least it wasn't for me when I did it. But..things did improve after a few days. During my list, while reading it to EI, I was crying a lot, many times so much that I couldn't even read anymore. EI kept saying, this is supposed to help B1..this is supposed to help. Well, I think it did but not then and there. Just a warning, that it will be VERY hard on him and of course it will be hard on you as well.
His list will probably include far more than just the lies, be prepared. My list was VERY graphic on the physical aspects of the A also.


*Bobka \ HSE*
I can't tell you how sorry I am that your wife is doing this to you. She truly doesn't get it or perhaps she does and wants to have both you and him in her life and thinks she can get away with it. 
I couldn't tolerate this for a minute, not sure how you are coping with this. I am sure you are in knots. I just wonder what she would do if backed into a wall and you gave her the option...OM and D or you? Sure wish I had some magic words for you.

*Joe*
If she says it and you see it then it's so. That's the best you can hope for. May I ask what's changed in the last few weeks? you went through a real change a while back, what happened if anything? is it thoughts of the A, mind movies, doubt, fear...what's really bothering you specifically? If you don't mind me asking.

I ask this because many times I can narrow this down and then bring it up with EI or let it out here and get some resolve. Under the hurt or anger is usually another emotion, for me it's usually insecurity. Thinking he was better than me, that I can't measure up etc...this would eat at me and really set me back for days if not weeks sometimes. EI helped me through this as did my counselor and support from others on this board. Your going at this alone, so maybe if you put it out here we can help? Just a thought...

*DG*
SO glad to hear all is well with his job.


----------



## Rags

Come on guys. Holiday season's over ... it's back to the real work of making it work.

It's hard. You know it's hard. A marriage is hard work without this ... added complication ... with this extra burden, well...

But ...



DON'T GIVE UP!


For you. For them.

For all of us.


Please.


Thinking of you.


----------



## daisygirl 41

I need some advice.....
Should I email ex OWs H And tell him my H is returning to work on Monday?
He's been off work for 8 months. There's been no contact.
Thoughts please!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

ouch..not sure what to tell ya there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

CantSitStill said:


> Hi welcome, this is an interesting thread. I love it here. Feel free to vent or chat or tell us your story
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks - I do like the spirit of help and open communication here without the bashing. 

The short version is that I am a WW who had an EA. Hubby and I are married for 11 years and have 3 kids (21 yo, 19 yo and a 6 month old). DDay was a year and a half ago. Much of it was rug swept and we remained together but yet not addressing any of it. I conceived a child during this period (with my BS) and we both realized that without addressing the EA directly and fixing it, we were destined to divorce.
I was horrible and cruel to him before and after D Day and feel very grateful that I've been given a second chance. I can't say that this process has been easy for either of us but I know now how much I have to lose if he were to call this off. 
It makes it hard that I travel frequently for work but I am trying to put a lot of effort in to making sure I do as much as possible to make him feel more comfortable with that. Next week, he and the baby are coming with me and I can hardly wait!
He means so much to me and the pain I caused him eats me up some days.


----------



## CantSitStill

TCSRedhead said:


> Thanks - I do like the spirit of help and open communication here without the bashing.
> 
> The short version is that I am a WW who had an EA. Hubby and I are married for 11 years and have 3 kids (21 yo, 19 yo and a 6 month old). DDay was a year and a half ago. Much of it was rug swept and we remained together but yet not addressing any of it. I conceived a child during this period (with my BS) and we both realized that without addressing the EA directly and fixing it, we were destined to divorce.
> I was horrible and cruel to him before and after D Day and feel very grateful that I've been given a second chance. I can't say that this process has been easy for either of us but I know now how much I have to lose if he were to call this off.
> It makes it hard that I travel frequently for work but I am trying to put a lot of effort in to making sure I do as much as possible to make him feel more comfortable with that. Next week, he and the baby are coming with me and I can hardly wait!
> He means so much to me and the pain I caused him eats me up some days.


Wow same here as far as hating the awful way I treated my hubby before and after d-day..I was so cold. I had an EA , it was a year ago and yes alot of work and struggles but so worth it..I am eternally grateful for my hubby also. So here your kids are all grown and you decided to have another one  how's that going? I don't want anymore myself, my youngest is 14 and oldest is 19. OOOOps the EA wasn't worth it I mean the rconcilliation..that sounded wrong..Can't stand what I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

CantSitStill said:


> Wow same here as far as hating the awful way I treated my hubby before and after d-day..I was so cold. I had an EA , it was a year ago and yes alot of work and struggles but so worth it..I am eternally grateful for my hubby also. So here your kids are all grown and you decided to have another one  how's that going? I don't want anymore myself, my youngest is 14 and oldest is 19. OOOOps the EA wasn't worth it I mean the rconcilliation..that sounded wrong..Can't stand what I did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't even remember some of what I said but when he repeats it back to me I want to crawl under a rock. How he managed to stay and wait is just beyond my understanding. He is an amazing person in so many ways.

As for the baby, yeah, he's an 'oops' for sure. He wasn't planned but sure is loved and wanted. There was definitely some bonding back then. When the test turned blue, we were pretty shocked. Starting all over is pretty interesting with two in college. I think I'm even more thankful that his arrival really knocked some sense in to my head to get my act together. 

Watching hubby be a dad to this baby is really a gift that I honestly treasure.


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## TCSRedhead

ChangingMe said:


> in a very low place
> 
> thinking of you all, but don't have the energy to respond


Sending you thoughts and prayers.


----------



## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> I need some advice.....
> Should I email ex OWs H And tell him my H is returning to work on Monday?
> He's been off work for 8 months. There's been no contact.
> Thoughts please!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow that's a tough one but I would say no. I say stick with NC.


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## pidge70

B1 said:


> Wow that's a tough one but I would say no. I say stick with NC.


:iagree:


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## CantSitStill

How are you Pidge?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

CantSitStill said:


> How are you Pidge?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm okay. Triggering like a mofo over something stupid. It will pass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Thank you for the kind words everyone, and especially to those who reached out. It means more than you know. 

Still not up to posting. Hopefully I will be back in a couple days.


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## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> I'm okay. Triggering like a mofo over something stupid. It will pass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes it will hang in there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> Thank you for the kind words everyone, and especially to those who reached out. It means more than you know.
> 
> Still not up to posting. Hopefully I will be back in a couple days.


I know what you mean, I'm right there with ya
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Is love enough to get through?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

CSS, Is love enough? No. It must be accompanied by respect, desire and trust.


----------



## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> ouch..not sure what to tell ya there
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I Suppose I have to look at the reasons why I want to do this.
I'm not generally a vindictive person but while the A was ongoing I was tormented weekly with anonymous emails telling me my H was leaving me, he was having an A etc etc. it transpired that it was the OWs H who sending them. It went on for months. I really feel that if he had just come clean and told me who he was I the first place we could have worked together to resolve the situation sooner.
In other words if he had presented me with the evidence of the A in an honest way I Could have dealt with things much better from my perspective.

So maybe I want to tell him out of revenge? Maybe I want him to have the anxiety that I am now feeling also. The worry of my H and her being in work together again.
Maybe I'm doing it so he can keep an eye on her from his side. To make sure she doesn't step out of line, or maybe because I was kept in the dark for so long I only think its right that he should know the situation!

I don't know. I'll have to think about it over the weekend!
Thanks guys
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

daisygirl 41 said:


> I Suppose I have to look at the reasons why I want to do this.
> I'm not generally a vindictive person but while the A was ongoing I was tormented weekly with anonymous emails telling me my H was leaving me, he was having an A etc etc. it transpired that it was the OWs H who sending them. It went on for months. I really feel that if he had just come clean and told me who he was I the first place we could have worked together to resolve the situation sooner.
> In other words if he had presented me with the evidence of the A in an honest way I Could have dealt with things much better from my perspective.
> 
> So maybe I want to tell him out of revenge? Maybe I want him to have the anxiety that I am now feeling also. The worry of my H and her being in work together again.
> Maybe I'm doing it so he can keep an eye on her from his side. To make sure she doesn't step out of line, or maybe because I was kept in the dark for so long I only think its right that he should know the situation!
> 
> I don't know. I'll have to think about it over the weekend!
> Thanks guys
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You and your husband have alot to talk about now..you must talk about boundries, have a plan and ask him how he will handle certain senerios.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> I Suppose I have to look at the reasons why I want to do this.
> I'm not generally a vindictive person but while the A was ongoing I was tormented weekly with anonymous emails telling me my H was leaving me, he was having an A etc etc. it transpired that it was the OWs H who sending them. It went on for months. I really feel that if he had just come clean and told me who he was I the first place we could have worked together to resolve the situation sooner.
> In other words if he had presented me with the evidence of the A in an honest way I Could have dealt with things much better from my perspective.
> 
> So maybe I want to tell him out of revenge? Maybe I want him to have the anxiety that I am now feeling also. The worry of my H and her being in work together again.
> Maybe I'm doing it so he can keep an eye on her from his side. To make sure she doesn't step out of line, or maybe because I was kept in the dark for so long I only think its right that he should know the situation!
> 
> I don't know. I'll have to think about it over the weekend!
> Thanks guys
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still don't recommend doing it. I think you would be opening a huge can of worms. Who knows how he will respond or his wife for that matter, she could get upset and start contacting you or your husband. She could cause trouble at work for him etc.
I think NC should stay in place. Just my 2 cents worth 

I understand wanting to get even though, but I think you have to let that go. I just don't think upsetting them is going to help your situation. Do give it some serious thought DG.


----------



## Rookie4

Hi, Daisygirl, nice to meet you. To give you my $.02, I think it depends on what your motivation is, and that is something you need to think hard about. If you would do it from revenge, then I say no, because it will almost always come back and bite you on the derriere. If you just want to give her H a "heads up", that they will be working together, and for him to help you make sure that both your H and his W keep to the proper boundaries, then I say you should contact him ONCE to tell him, then let it go, with the understanding that if either of you feel that there is something improper going on, THEN you notify the other. Make him an ally, not an enemy.


----------



## Rookie4

Well, folks, Sweetie and I had our first argument this morning, since we got back together.
I woke up before she did, and hobbled out to the kitchen to make coffee. She was irritated and worried, because I was on my feet, and said that I should have let her do it. Jokingly, I said that she was my GF, not my mother, and that I thought she could go back to work soon.. I could see the hurt in her eyes , the moment I said it, and knew it was a mistake. She went into the kitchen, then came back and asked if we could talk about it. She explained that I had hurt her feelings , because she has been so happy being my nurse and doing things for me and that she thought we had been very close since my accident.
Now, the old wife would have been pissed and mega dramatic, and would have accused me of not caring, and it was just another example of how I neglected her feelings, etc, etc, etc.
The NEW Sweetie was reasonable, loving, and wants to air out our differences and issues as a team. This is a HUGE change in her. I told her that I really appreciated what she was doing for me and that I loved spending time with her, but was worried about her taking off so much time, plus I am getting "stir crazy". I don't like to be sitting on my a**, when there is so much to do.
Then we held each other and she told me that I am her hero and lover and I told her that she was my Sweetie and the Queen of my heart. It wasn't really much of an argument, but it was an example of what she has learned in therapy, and shows that she truly has matured a lot since we split up.
I know it might seem trivial to you guys, but to me it was AWESOME!!


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Rookie,

I think that is awesome. I think this CLEARLY confirms how far she has come over the last two years in understanding herself and what she wants. The fact that she paused to gather her thoughts and feelings, and then openly shared them with you in a constructive manner is HUGE. 

This level of sel-awareness and emotional honesty and transparency is truly an awesome sign.

Very, very cool.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> .. I could see the hurt in her eyes , the moment I said it, and knew it was a mistake. She went into the kitchen, then came back and asked if we could talk about it. She explained that I had hurt her feelings , because she has been so happy being my nurse and doing things for me and that she thought we had been very close since my accident.


She sure toke adventage of IC to learn how to manage her emotions.
Awasome!!! Incredible!
:smthumbup:


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes I know what you mean, we argue differently now, we have learned to not avoid issues 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Jasel said:


> Could you elaborate on this a bit? I just ask because I've read many of your threads and posts and it just seems like your wife doesn't have any interest in R as much as she just doesn't want to get divorced. I just can't see how that winds up working out in the long run.


I'll try. I don't see it work out either under one condition: She has checked out, and doesn't have the same feelings for me either. My rationale is as follows.

My problem is that I may have a clouded judgement due to 28 years of living with her, loving her, almost two thirds of my life. I keep asking myself; is she 


Plain evil and doesn't care about me
 Not capable of dealing with this, projecting and rugsweeping, defending herself.
I can't decide which one it is, at this moment I would say 50/50. And if it is number 2, it would be the mistake of my life to leave her, also damaging my kids un-necessarily.

So, you may say that I give her the benefit of the doubt until further evidence has been found. If I were positive, that she didn't care and just stayed for the kids as well, I would divorce her tomorrow and move on. Just can't be sure.

Does this make any sense, or is it my second-year-fog speaking? :scratchhead:


----------



## old timer

cpacan said:


> Does this make any sense, or is it my second-year-fog speaking? :scratchhead:


*
cpacan:*

Makes sense to me. 
Some here on TAM advocate _"Kick 'em to the curb - it's the only solution"_.

While it may be the proper choice for one relationship does not mean it is right for all. 
Everyone's situation/marital dynamic is unique - it's not a "one size fits all" deal. 

While I think we should all regain/maintain our self-respect and get control of our own life (whether WS or BS), no *one* remedy is a panacea for all.


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> Thank you for the kind words everyone, and especially to those who reached out. It means more than you know.
> 
> Still not up to posting. Hopefully I will be back in a couple days.


keeping you in my thoughts, sending positive energy, CM dear <3


----------



## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> Is love enough to get through?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hi css: that's a question that i never asked myself before all this -- but i do think about it now. 

it's a sad question, right? and i think that when we get to the point of asking it, we already know the answer: no. 

but love is enough of a reason to try like h*ll to work on the broken/missing pieces of the relationship -- as long as there are two people are trying like h*ll, and as long as you don't lose yourself in the trying.


----------



## margrace

cpacan said:


> I'll try. I don't see it work out either under one condition: She has checked out, and doesn't have the same feelings for me either. My rationale is as follows.
> 
> My problem is that I may have a clouded judgement due to 28 years of living with her, loving her, almost two thirds of my life. I keep asking myself; is she
> 
> 
> Plain evil and doesn't care about me
> Not capable of dealing with this, projecting and rugsweeping, defending herself.
> I can't decide which one it is, at this moment I would say 50/50. And if it is number 2, it would be the mistake of my life to leave her, also damaging my kids un-necessarily.


it all makes perfect sense to me. i have asked myself similar questions at different times -- probably lots of us have.

i think there are some plain evil (or just really really disturbed) people in the world but they are the minority. i think you might have at least suspected that before now if it were true.

seems like #2 characterizes pretty much all the WSs at some point... so a big dose of that stuff is probably in there.

the question that i am feeling right now is the middle one: how much does she care about you vs. how disconnected is she? 

if she just doesn't care enough about you to do better than this, then that could be the dealbreaker. what's your sense of that?


----------



## ChangingMe

Feeling stronger today. Got a lot on my plate today -though the most pressing matter is taking lunch to a friend with a new baby and getting to snuggle that little boy. 

I will hopefully update soon, but just know I have been praying for you all. I have been sleeping like crap the past several nights, waking up repeatedly and struggling to get back to sleep. The only good thing about it is I've been using the time to pray. So we've all gotten a lot of prayers out of me!

Thank you all once again for the kind words, thoughts, and prayers for me and DD.


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## Rookie4

CM, don't give up the ship! If Sweetie can do it, so can you! I mean, she had even LESS to work with than you do, right? I divorced her and was with other women, yet she still did the work and suffered the pain, because her love and desire for me was more important than any other consideration, to her. You, at least still have your husband at home, which says to me that he is willing to R. Plus, it gives you ample opportunity to show by your actions, that you have changed and that your realize what is truly important, now. Sweetie had NONE of that, but still worked like a maniac, to prove that she is the woman I want, and can be proud of.
But always remember that HE COMES FIRST, before every other consideration. If you put him first, he will see that you are the real deal and reciprocate. If not, then you can truthfully say you did your best to right your wrong and atone. And be at peace with yourself.


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## karole

Rookie4 said:


> Something has been on my mind for a couple of weeks, and I want to get it out there to my TAM friends. Actually I got side-tracked by my toes, but it is still something to think about.
> We sometimes tend to maximize the pain infidelity causes the BS and minimize that pain which the WS suffers, especially if they are NORMALLY good people, who have made a horrible choice.
> Sweetie and I were talking and I asked her about her words to me on D-day and what she told her co-workers. This is what she said........
> I told you those things because I was filled with anger and despair and sadness, because I believed that our marriage was a sham and you didn't seem to care or love me anymore.. I wanted you to hurt like I was hurting. Brad was just the weapon I used to hurt you and the drug I used to make myself feel like I was alive.
> I said those things to the ladies at work , because I was whistling in the dark. I was terrified that I had done something that would destroy my family and I realized that I had lost my only love, forever. It was my pride talking and I tried to think positive about it but pride is no substitute for true love. (this is a lesson we all should learn)
> I asked her when she realized this and she said it was 3 days after D-day. I allowed her to come home to get some clothes and things for work. She said that when she entered the house she almost could not walk, she was sobbing so hard. She says that it was at that moment that she fully realized what she had done, to herself, to the kids , but most of all, to me. She said that she wanted to die, and that if it had not been for the kids , she might have killed herself. ( Very sobering to hear, because I know her and she means every word) It was at that moment that she ended any contact with Brad, took her things to her parents house and sought therapy to help her with her issues and to ease her pain.
> WS's DO suffer, sometimes their suffering is so great that it will motivate them to be better people. Sweetie is that kind of woman. I'm trying really hard, but sometimes I wonder if she will EVER fully forgive herself


Yes Rookie, I am sure they do suffer. The difference is, you did not have a choice in the suffering brought upon you and she brought hers on herself.


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## B1

karole said:


> Yes Rookie, I am sure they do suffer. The difference is, you did not have a choice in the suffering brought upon you and she brought hers on herself.


Not always true. Many times the WS does suffer in the marriage prior to the A. And They had no choice in it either.

EI had no choice when she dealt with my neglect, my hurtful and mean words, my physical neglect and complete emotional neglect. She suffered for years from this without choosing it. 

We can't forget, especially in R that usually the BS played a part in the break down of the marriage. That there was hurt well before the A ever began. 

Since an A seems to trump all other hurts the WS's hurt goes unnoticed and gets left behind and again they suffer in silence. Many don't feel they have a right to say "I hurt too"

In our case, We addressed this also ... EI hurt too and I have tearfully apologized for the pain I caused her pre -A. To me this is a critical part of R.

To me it's about being happy and healthy and addressing all our problems past and present. If R is the focus and the goal, then you must address the WS feelings too.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hello reconcilers! I'm so glad to catch up with this thread after being home for almost a week. Rookie, it's so uplifting to literally see on the screen how happy you and Sweetie are, and hear how much she has been able to change for the better. I know it makes me feel hopeful about my ability to change for the better and stick with it.

CM, I know this week has been up and down for you and DD. I'm so glad to hear that he went with you to counseling today and that things seem to be on the upside as you head into the weekend. 

CPACAN, I wish your wife could see that you are holding on for her to progress and become a better person for both of you. I'm sorry for the pain you are still feeling 2 years in, and wish there was something "right" to say to give you some strength and comfort.

EI and B1 have been mostly incognito - so I'm assuming they are having a great week, or that one of them has been tied up in the bedroom again most of the week!  (Which also makes for a great week....)

I'm thinking of Joe and Pidge, as well as HSE, OT, margrace, and everyone else at their various stages in this unpredictable journey. I hope we all continue to have the strength to find our happiness in the future, and be the caring, considerate, loving partners we all have the ability to be.


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## old timer

I'm going to Super Bowl and Mardis Gras. 

First time for both. 

No brooding here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Go for it, OT!! I've been to both and believe me, Mardi Gras is way more fun!!, but the Super Bowl is great too. Have a Blast!!


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## old timer

Planning on it, Rook.

Super Bowl is in NOLA. They're putting Mardi Gras on hold for a couple of days for SB, then cranking MG back up. I'll stay a couple extra days after SB for MG. Got one of those balconies on Bourbon St to watch the festivities. 

Going down this weekend for SB "volunteer orientation". I'll have to drive back home Tuesday, and then I'll be headed back to NOLA by Thursday/Friday. I'm being hosted by some locals (they live about 20 min from the Dome and the Quarter). I have a designated driver whenever I'm there, just in case I decide to drink (I normally do, lol). 

This is going to be quite an experience.


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## Decorum

B1 said:


> Not always true. Many times the WS does suffer in the marriage prior to the A. And They had no choice in it either.
> 
> EI had no choice when she dealt with my neglect, my hurtful and mean words, my physical neglect and complete emotional neglect. She suffered for years from this without choosing it.
> 
> We can't forget, especially in R that usually the BS played a part in the break down of the marriage. That there was hurt well before the A ever began.
> 
> Since an A seems to trump all other hurts the WS's hurt goes unnoticed and gets left behind and again they suffer in silence. Many don't feel they have a right to say "I hurt too"
> 
> In our case, We addressed this also ... EI hurt too and I have tearfully apologized for the pain I caused her pre -A. To me this is a critical part of R.
> 
> To me it's about being happy and healthy and addressing all our problems past and present. If R is the focus and the goal, then you must address the WS feelings too.


This is a pain born insight and I really respect you for saying it.

One of the things that really motivated me to recommit to my relationship with my wife from reading on TAM, was how painful that neglect really is to a woman. Speaking from my perspective its just not the same for a man, and its so easy to not understand that.

Its the difference between a cow and a honey bee, the cow eats the clover, Honey Bees extract nectar and pollen from clover.

We feed our emotions differently and my wife extracts her nectar in a more subtly way through time with me.

One other big diffrence between a cow and a honey bee is that cows dont have stingers, HA HA HA HA, ahem!


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## old timer

Decorum said:


> This is a pain born insight and I really respect you for saying it.
> 
> One of the things that really motivated me to recommit to my relationship with my wife from reading on TAM, was how painful that neglect really is to a woman. Speaking from my perspective its just not the same for a man, and its so easy to not understand that.


Yep. Something I've only come to truly understand in the last few months. 

Years ago, I read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" (or vice versa, lol) and it occurs to me now that my marriage improved as a result. 

Guess I should've read it once every couple of years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

old timer said:


> Yep. Something I've only come to truly understand in the last few months.
> 
> Years ago, I read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" (or vice versa, lol) and it occurs to me now that my marriage improved as a result.
> 
> Guess I should've read it once every couple of years.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think a lot of us are guilty of similar things. Hell, I took a class in counseling couples, and I read several books on marriage and relationships when I was in grad school from 2001-2004. 

Obviously, a lot of those important, valuable concepts slipped my mind last year.  It's embarrassing, because people will recommend books on here, and they are ones I read a decade ago. You really have to keep things on the forefront. You can't read something once and think it will stick without putting it into repeated practice.


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## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> I think a lot of us are guilty of similar things. Hell, I took a class in counseling couples, and I read several books on marriage and relationships when I was in grad school from 2001-2004.
> 
> Obviously, a lot of those important, valuable concepts slipped my mind last year.  It's embarrassing, because people will recommend books on here, and they are ones I read a decade ago. You really have to keep things on the forefront. You can't read something once and think it will stick without putting it into repeated practice.


One time when I was complaining that she read too many books on relationships my wife once said when you aren't working on your marriage you are working against your marriage. I now know what she meant.


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## old timer

Headed to New Orleans...

OT over and out

:smthumbup:


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## calvin

old timer said:


> Headed to New Orleans...
> 
> OT over and out
> 
> :smthumbup:


I hate you OT!
Have fun and a safe trip!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Enjoy oldtimer...Calvin get your butt home, you're in trouble ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

old timer said:


> Headed to New Orleans...
> 
> OT over and out
> 
> :smthumbup:


Have a good time and be safe....


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## EI

B1 said:


> EI hurt too and I have tearfully apologized for the pain I caused her pre -A. To me this is a critical part of R.
> 
> To me it's about being happy and healthy and addressing all our problems past and present. If R is the focus and the goal, then you must address the WS feelings too.


Is it any wonder that I love this man so very much? I'm actually humbled by the love that he has shown me in the last 8 months. At times I feel overwhelmed and undeserving of his love. It wasn't always that way.... not before. I do ask him almost every day, "Why now?" "Why do you love me, now?" I used to question that he really could love me this way...... especially, now. I don't question his love for me anymore. It's real, it's consistent, it's strong and vulnerable all at the same time. But, he still hurts..... my betrayal hurt him to the core. It crosses my mind that he may never fully heal.... Common things like TV shows and songs on the radio can change his mood in an instant. He doesn't seem angry with me, anymore. He just hurts. Just this very moment as I'm typing this, I had to get up and run to the TV to change the channel. One of B1's old favorites, "Catch Me If You Can," is on. We've seen it many times. This time is different. The sex scene that we hadn't even remembered was in it before is now something that seems to paralyze B1 in the middle of the living room floor and I run past him to grab the remote and find something, anything, that is guaranteed not to have a sex scene in it. We settle on "The Green Mile" and I have resumed my typing...... hoping that there isn't anything in this movie that will be a painful reminder to B1 of the worst decision that I ever made in my life.

The kids aren't home, just B1, our special needs son and myself. It's a quiet, gloomy, overcast, somewhat *_boring_* day. Yet, it feels like a beautiful gift! I have tons of laundry to do, the beds haven't been made, the dishwasher hasn't been unloaded, the dog needs a bath, and I have piles of paperwork that I need to attend to. I even feel guilty because I haven't posted in a few days and I know that there has been so much going on in all of your lives. I haven't felt well this week and next week is going to be very difficult. Our special needs son will be having his surgery on Tuesday to place a titanium rod in his back to alleviate the complications from his worsening scoliosis. He and I will be at the hospital for 5-7 days. I don't think that I will be able to leave the hospital, at all, during his stay. It's kind of overwhelming. B1 will be with us the day of his surgery and the next, but then I need for him to go back to work so that he can take some time off when we return from the hospital. I think that is when I will need his help the most. In spite of all of this, I'm feeling immeasurably blessed.

I will post again, later this evening, if time permits. Our daughter, S-I-L, and the bambino are coming over for a while..... and our spoiled little girl doesn't like for us to give her anything less than our full attention when she's here. She has declared that Sundays are for family... NOT TAM. Yeah, I know, today is Saturday..... oh well! Even on the days that I don't post, I do read your comments. I care about each of you.... I truly do. I love the way that we all give and receive here on the "R" thread. There have been a lot of posts this past week that I would like to comment on...... just let me get a few things taken care of at home. I love you guys.....

Take care,
~EI


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## CantSitStill

oh crap I thought it was your grandson getting surgery when you posted on fb..sorry for calling him little guy or whatever I said. as for changing the channel..Aint it! I know what's comin and am real quick changing the channel. You explain things so well and I read your posts I always tell Calvin how I feel just the same..like just now about how could you love me after what I did..I'm not good with words. You are..you should write a book. I bet you'd be good at it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

What you just said was so true and beautiful EI.
It really rings true with me and CSS.
It makes me feel....just,it really makes me feel...real with CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

EI said:


> I do ask him almost every day, "Why now?" "Why do you love me, now?" I used to question that he really could love me this way...... especially, now. I don't question his love for me anymore. It's real, it's consistent, it's strong and vulnerable all at the same time. But, he still hurts..... my betrayal hurt him to the core. It's crosses my mind that he may never fully heal....


I'm so glad to hear you truly believe him.
He will heal, at his pace, with your help. You both will notice the scars once in a while. 
Get a calendar, you must realize how little time has passed.
It's happening. It's real.


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## CantSitStill

We are both really emotional...it is the anniversary of d-day..yesterday was the Friday I told him and left, today is when I came to get some stuff and had my kids freaking out and I did not show emotion and tomorrow is the day of the spagghetti dinner for his mom's birthday that we are actually doing tomorrow.. Pray please..we are good as gold as long as we have eachother but my eyes won't stop tearing up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> By EI
> It's crosses my mind that he may never fully heal..
> He doesn't seem angry with me, anymore. He just hurts.



EI
If you are talking about triggers like TV program,etc, he may never COMPLETELY heal. However, with you, time, and B1 improving like he has in just 8 months, B1 will be a LOT LOT better.

I just had a trigger a few days ago and my successful R is over 20 years old. Let me try and tell you how much that trigger affected me. It is like you are looking through your family pictures and you see a picture of years ago of yourself and it is not a good picture and it is a time that you were sick or was a time that you were embarrassed about yourself. You look at that picture and you do not get a good feeling. You then put that picture down and go on to all the many other pictures that show that you are good and all is OK. *That trigger was a very strong trigger years ago but now it is just a trigger- hit that last minutes and a very weak hit at that.*

There are going to be things in life like those triggers that affect you like that that have nothing to do with infidelity. That is just life. 

B1 seems to be a very strong candidate for a person that will do as good as I have or better. He sure is ahead of me at 8 months! I have read where B1 has been so very open about his negative actions before the A. He did that right on this board several times and knew that you would be able to read that. *He already trusts you enough to know that you will not try and use his negative actions in the past to justify yourself or to blame him in any way.* That is very POSITIVE! Then when some posters ay something against you B1 comes to your defense, and did a great job of defending you more than once.

B1 is a humble man (That is a high compliment in our world) and probably thinks that I am giving him too much credit. But B1 has only 8 months of examining this R stuff and I have been acutely aware of progress in R for over 20 years. *B1 does not yet realize how much of a real man he is.* Yes yes I know that B1 has his weak moments; we are both men and I remember my weak moments quit well. His weak moments will be overcome by his strengths.

EI, you and B1 are in this for the long haul and I am not talking months I am talking years and decades. You both are in the first few minutes of the first quarter of the basketball game called life. Every coach well tell you that one of the hardest and most important thing to accomplish to make a winning team is to get the teammates to *work as a team and not care who gets the credit. I SEE THAT BIGTIME IN B1 and EI.*

Furthermore, you both have pulled off so many slam dunks in the last few months that the net is about to catch fire. I hope you like my sports analogy as I find it one of the best ways to tell you what I see in you both.

Does B1 get hurt by the fact that you both got beat last year? Sure he does. Let me ask you a question. How many people remember the one that Michael Jordan lost before he ran off a three-peat (3 straight championships in a ROW)?. I am a basketball fan and I don’t even know the answer to that question without looking it up. *My point is that the ones that you lost before you became a winner are forgotten!! Right now B1 and EI are winners!!!!*


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## CantSitStill

I have have looked at family pictures and boy do they say alot..I can see the ones where I was so stressed out and others where I was so happy.. Pictures do show and remind you of how you felt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

happyman64 said:


> Have a good time and be safe....


Thanks, hm64 (and I hate you too, Calvin). 

Good times. Having a Blue Moon ale (and a couple of jägers) 
@ the Blue Nile bar, listening to the blues...

Life is good. 

(Btw, calvin...j/k)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

old timer said:


> Thanks, hm64 (and I hate you too, Calvin).
> 
> Good times. Having a Blue Moon ale (and a couple of jägers)
> @ the Blue Nile bar, listening to the blues...
> 
> Life is good.
> 
> (Btw, calvin...j/k)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Enjoy OT,I dig it.
Lucky bastard.Have fun man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

CantSitStill said:


> oh crap I thought it was your grandson getting surgery when you posted on fb..sorry for calling him little guy or whatever I said. as for changing the channel..Aint it! I know what's comin and am real quick changing the channel. You explain things so well and I read your posts I always tell Calvin how I feel just the same..like just now about how could you love me after what I did..I'm not good with words. You are..you should write a book. I bet you'd be good at it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We wanna see a picture of you and Calvin! Like this if you agree!


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## B1

Mr. Blunt thank you for that post, that was so nice and as usual I am humbled by your words. Sometimes I want to scream, "THIS ISN'T EASY...IT HURTS" but most of the times I want to scream "I REALLY LOVE EI." 

We are at 8 months today, as Acabado said, that's really very little time and look where we are. Imagine another 8 months.

We have some rough times ahead of us still, very rough times. This upcoming surgery will change our lives some by itself, caring for him will be more difficult. Then we have some other personal things coming that will be very difficult too.
But we are together as one and that's the only way I want it. I cannot imagine anyone else by my side other than EI.

Hearing songs is much improved as far as triggering goes, t.v. shows, well, not so much. Sometimes it's no so bad, other times it's paralyzing and heartbreaking. I am definitely getting better with time though. It used to be always bad, so that's a positive.

Overall, I feel we are doing very well. EI though has been a little off lately. She has not been feeling her best. She is stressed over this upcoming surgery and some little things like car trouble and worrying about the other kids too. I am not as handy with cars like Calvin is and probably others on here. SO we have to depend on others for help there. 

CSS, I can't tell you how many people have told EI to write a book. Just about everyone she meets tells her this.

OT - SO glad you are enjoying yourself, good for you.

bobka\HSE - Have not heard much from you, I hope things are ok, but I get the feeling they may not be. If I may ask, are you doing the 180?

Calvin\CSS - Things seem to be going really well for you two now. So happy about that. Calvin doesn't seem to be triggering as much.
Or, he is handling his triggers better now. 

To all the new posters in the last week or so, welcome. Please stick around and give us your input\feedback and share your journey.

For all those reading this thread, remember your story, your feedback, your comments could very well make a huge difference for someone on here. Just identifying with someone helps. How many times have you read something on here and said..WOW I feel the same way, or that happens to me too...so I am not alone in this. How many times have you identified with someone on here? 
How many times have you read something that really helped you..I know I have, I just did today.

So, please feel free to post, even if you never have before. 

I sure hope you all have a great Sunday!
Prayers, thoughts and God bless


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## calvin

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> We wanna see a picture of you and Calvin! Like this if you agree!


I will get around to it bobka,seems like I'm always so damn busy and tired.
I'm not sure how to do it but it cant be that hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I said it on my thread that I dont know what I'd do without CSS,when its crunch time she comes through,this party is a lot of work but we enjoy doing things like this.
Its so strange that when she was in the "fog" that she said no more parties...ever.
Thats not like her.I'm so happy I have her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I felt and still feel it's unfair that his family always count on us for every gathering but we both have learned to give and do things for eachother. Also it's not that bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I felt and still feel it's unfair that his family always count on us for every gathering but we both have learned to give and do things for eachother. Also it's not that bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The family has expanded quite a bit,my nieces and nephews are having kids now.
My Mom and Dad are getting old,it just feels great having them all here at once,even the rug rats running all over the place.
This is something I will never give up,if I dont do it odds are no one else will.
I enjoy it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Morning everyone.
EI, you're posts are are inspiring as ever, and yes I agree, you should write a book,
CSS- hope you are ok today. I hope your Dday anniversary wasn't too painful for you both and that your family gathering went well.
Rookie, B1 and anyone else who gave input on my situation, I appreciate it. You will all be glad to know that I took your advice on board and didn't contact ExOW H. I thought long and hard about it, and nearly did, but I suppose my reasons for doing it weren't healthy and were coming from a place that wanted to cause OW and her H pain. I thought about my friends here, who are Hs and who are exWSs,, and I can see how you are all repairing your marriages and trying to move on, I hope my Hs OW is as remorseful and sorry to her H as you lovely ladies are here. Any anger I have had regarding my Hs A has been solely directed at her. The reason being, I have it on very good authority, is that she set out to get my H. She stalked us on FB and fed him all the lies and nonsense she needed too. Of course he's not innocent, but I still have a lot of hurt and anger towards her for what she did. She spun him a pack of lies to get him hooked and basically wanted to pluck him out of my family and place him into hers. I realise I need to let this go. I need to find a way to heal so that she doesn't matter any more. 

I ask my H if he ever thinks about her, what does he feel about her. And he always replies the same, never and nothing! Can that be true? How can he never think about that woman who almost destroyed our family, when I think about her everyday? 

Anyway, H was supposed to return to work today, but he's got a meeting tomorrow with the school and his union rep to arrange a staggered return to work, so that's another 2 days off at least!! Lol!
So I can relax for 2 more days. He knows how I am feeling, and we have had a few emotional chats over the weekend. He IS going to look for another job and has said that he will do anything and everything he can to help me and help us.

I love the fact that there are so many men on here posting. It's good to get a male perspective. H keeps his emotions so under wraps at times, it's very difficult to get in. When we were chatting on Saturday, I asked him to open up to me more, and tell me what he's feeling etc, his response? 'Its difficult, I'm not like those American men you see on the tv'. It made me laugh, and I thought of you all here. Hubby would rather chop his arm off than come on here and tell you all his thoughts and feelings. That's the good old British stiff upper lip for you!!

Anyway, I'm trying to be positive today. Going to push those thoughts of HER out of my head and try and get on with my life. I am starting to feel low and I don't want it to get any worse, these cold winter months don't help and I need to shake myself out of it!

Much love and peace to you all
DG
Xx


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## StarGazer101

Hello to all of you amazing people on this thread. 

I found this forum 2 weeks ago and reading this thread in particular (and I have read every single post) has probably changed my life. Your honesty, humility and humanity has touched me deeply. I have felt much empathy for the pain and cried many tears as I have followed your stories; and I have learned a lot about strength, perseverance and the power of hope. Most of all you have given me hope.

I am a B/S and DDay 1 was 22nd April 2012. Married 23 years and it blew my world apart! We have been trying to R since that day, but it has been terribly difficult. W/H has TT'd all the way, broke NC for the first 3 weeks, and generally has massive difficulty with giving me the truth and talking about any of it. We have made progress but it has been slow and very painful and often 3 steps forward 3 steps back.

When I found this forum I was in a very bad place and almost ready to give up trying. Seeing your stories helped me realise we weren't unique ...... he's not a monster and I'm not a nutter! 

I took strength from you and gave him an ultimatum about being truthful and I now finally know that his relationship with a work colleague became an E/A around July/August 2009 and became a P/A December 2009. That it has taken this long for him to finally be honest about these basic facts will give you an idea of just how difficult our R process has been for us. Any truths that I know are ones that I found myself through checking emails, diaries phone records etc and even then there were lies, denials until final admissions.

My W/H assures me that he is sincere in his desire to R but finds it very difficult to talk about things. The TT, lies and the depth of the betrayal have made it _almost_ impossible for me to believe him, and I am so wary of being taken for a fool *again.* ..... I have been guilty so many times of believing what I wanted to believe and that shames me. I still don't believe that W/H *really* understands the depths that this takes a B/S to; although I believe that his understanding has developed from his original stance. 

Where I am now is that I want to move on from the pain and create a future. I can do this. I love him, I don't want to punish him, I don't want this A to define my life, and I believe that we have the potential to have a good marriage in the future. 

He has kept to NC, since the middle of May, removed password from phone, given me access to emails and fb and I believe that he wants to R. I'm not sure that he is genuinely remorseful as opposed to feeling guilty and I believe that is our biggest issue. I need to know that there is at least a fighting chance that this won't happen again because he has taken responsibility and looked within his heart and been honest with himself about many of the things that took us to where we are now as I have tried to do.

I have shown him this forum and this thread and I am hoping that he will join and we can actively seek to learn from the experience and wisdom of others. I feel I have learnt so much from you all already. 

 Thank You All


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## calvin

Hi Star and welcome to B1 and EI thread.
I'm a BH and my FWW CantSitStill post on here as well.
Sorry youre here but you will find some really good people with good advice as well as a wonderful support group.
If you have to be here,you landed on a excellent thread and you'll find lots of help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Welcome SG,
Welcome to a club no one wants to be in, but hey, if your in it, this is the place, I hope, that can help you with R, if that's your goal and it sounds like it is.

First, I am so sorry for what you are enduring. Many on here know your pain all to well and many also know your struggles about getting ALL of the truth.

My WW was very upfront about it all, I was lucky there, if you can call that luck. There are others though that are, or have, struggled with getting their WS to talk about it and get it ALL out on the table. I am certain they will speak up and help you some.

My Dday #2 was in May of 2012, so we are close to the same in that area. 

I am sure you have read on here but sometime writing things out helps, write your husband an email, see if he can open up more that way. Me and my wife would talk via email a lot during work hours. We got a lot out during that time. Not that we were not talking in person, but we did use email a lot and texting.

It's has to be hard to know there is more but they wont open up. I can't imagine that. I wanted to know it all and I wanted to know it all NOW. My wife opened up immediately. She tt's for about 2 weeks on a couple issues and that was it. From then on she was an open book. 

Hopefully your husband will open up fully soon, maybe after reading some on here he will understand how CRITICAL it is to open up and give you everything you ask for, he does owe you that much. And if he truly wants to R, then he needs too. I know it can be difficult to for him to talk about what he did, but he's in the light, he knows it all and your in darkness, and that's not a place he needs to leave you in. IF he loves you, then he needs to open up and relieve you of this "not knowing pain."

Stick around others will respond also, and hang in there, time is our friend. Glad your here and sorry at the same time, hope you know what I mean SG


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## cpacan

Welcome Stargazer, to the thread where you get inspiration, support and comfort when times get rough. And they will do so for a while, I can almost promise you that.

A short note on the TT. Your husband needs to realize that it's usually not the affair in itself that hurts and makes forgiveness so hard - it's all the surrounding lies and deceptions. If he won't or can't understand that, you must give some further instructions - that's what I did in order to stop my wife's endless small and big lies, minimizations etc.

One day, I simply had enough of it. I told her: If you lie to me one more time, and I don't care if it is about when you got out of bed this morning, one more lie, and I will leave you. The important thing here is, that you must be willing to mean it 100%, and I did. She hasn't lied to me since. This incident was a little more than a year ago, but I still mean it today. One more lie, and our marriage will be history.

She does not want to talk much about things anymore, though, but that's a different story - better that than the lies.

I wish you the best in your R. Take care.


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## B1

btw..EI is very sick so she's not posting, she has been up all night living in the bathroom. She still very sick this morning...can't keep anything down, not even liquids.

And we have our sons surgery tomorrow...getting worried 
I can't do this without EI.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Okay, you asked. W is still in contact with OM, states that it's strictly friendship. Still does not get it. I am doing something of a 180, protecting myself, yet we are doing better. It may just be rug-sweeping - I still can't tell at this point. I'm trying to be the best husband I can be, yet cautious.

I believe what I'm doing now is working on myself, preparing for my own life, should she not come around. I used to be SO dependent upon her - she was my world. Well, she's not anymore, and I am practicing the things I need to do to be alone, if necessary.

When I told her she would have to pick him or me, she saw how serious I was. Soon, she may get an awakening. I am stronger now. 

Please keep me, and us, in your prayers. And God bless you all!
__________________

Welcome Stargazer. Glad you have found us. You will find marriages in all different states of disrepair (or repair) here. Make the most of what you learn, and lean on us if need be.


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## daisygirl 41

Hope EI has a speedy recovery and all goes well tomorrow.

Welcome Star Gazer!

Hope- you are in my thoughts. I have been where you are now and it's tough. Only a hard line will work on her now. She needs to know you are serious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

I haven't had much time for posting, but I just want to comment on the feedback I received - thank you 


margrace said:


> it all makes perfect sense to me. i have asked myself similar questions at different times -- probably lots of us have.
> 
> i think there are some plain evil (or just really really disturbed) people in the world but they are the minority. i think you might have at least suspected that before now if it were true.
> 
> seems like #2 characterizes pretty much all the WSs at some point... so a big dose of that stuff is probably in there.
> 
> the question that i am feeling right now is the middle one: how much does she care about you vs. how disconnected is she?
> 
> if she just doesn't care enough about you to do better than this, then that could be the dealbreaker. what's your sense of that?


Thanks Margrace. I agree with you, mostly  
Sometimes I wonder. It's just so confusing from time to time because I start to see a lot of things, that I didn't notice before, ie. how manipulative she can be, when there is something she wants for herself. But I'm glad that I am no longer an ignorant, but of course it also makes me doubt her intentions and motives more often - sadly. I actually think she cares on some level, and she doesn't come off as disconnected. But then again, neither did she when she was deep in her affair. Excellent actress compartmentalizing things. So what do i know.
Your last point is spot on and why I haven't answered it before, because it is something that I think about a lot. If she just isn't capable of meeting my needs for being close to her emotionally so I can understand what's going on inside her, knowing her from the inside and out, how long will I live with that? Can I accept this human flaw untill the kids grow older? Longer? Will she be able to learn it? These thoughts feels like they have been designed for keeping folks like me in limbo... Thanks for pointing it out.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> CPACAN, I wish your wife could see that you are holding on for her to progress and become a better person for both of you. I'm sorry for the pain you are still feeling 2 years in, and wish there was something "right" to say to give you some strength and comfort.


MrsM, thanks for taking the time to adress me, I know you have a lot on your own plate, so I appreciate it. Like the triggers coming out of nowhere, you can also have positive triggers coming out of nowhere - posting this actually made me smile a bit and made my day better 

Take care out there.


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## SomedayDig

SG...as B1 said, we're sorry that you are here, however we're glad you felt comfortable enough to post your story.

This is a very difficult thing you are trying to do. Reconciliation is not for the feint at heart. It is not for the weak. The one thing it does take is for BOTH spouses to be 100% brutally honest with each other. That means no more TT and no more hiding things that may have happened throughout the ENTIRETY of the affair.

I say it that way because that is where my wife, Regret214, has had some problems discussing her affair. A lot of times when I would ask her specific questions about the affair, she usually only commented about things that happened within the last year of her affair...basically forgetting that there were 4 other years she had to be accountable for.

For the most part, I have seen that this behavior is a horrible self defense mechanism of someone who had a huge ego driven life that I didn't even know about. In a couple weeks we will hit 11 months since Dday (3/6/2012). We have both learned so much about each other since then. 

I'm glad to see you write about not being taken for a fool again. That is exactly what my concentration has been on for the last few weeks in IC and MC. Regret knows how much she hurt me...not with just the affair, but the continued trickle truths that I endured that only served to set me and us back. 4/22, 5/5, 6/24 and 8/30. Those are the dates I learned "the truth". Those are the dates that each time she proclaimed "now you know everything".

Problem is, since that last one...one that actually played out in this thread, I have been guarded. Even though I don't have my Spider Senses tingling (which happened a lot back then), I'm still fearful of being taken a fool. She does everything she can on a daily basis to help me and comfort me with this struggle. Some days I don't think about it at all. Others...well, it's hard to shake. That is a big reason why I've been a little more than absent as of late on the forums. Some days I just don't want to come here. I'm sure we've all been there before!

Anyway, keep sharing here and reading. If your husband just reads this from your profile that should be enough. If he signs up and you both decide to post your story on your own thread, I will warn you...it will not be easy. You can look up how EI was treated and also Regret214. They were beaten up pretty badly initially. They stuck it out, though. They proved themselves (in my eyes at least).

In the end, remember...this is a forum where you will read things that make you, even as a BS, cringe. There are a lot of hurting souls here. Some cannot keep their hurt to themselves and lash out. However, most do offer a great deal of advice. And a lot of it is good.

Peace to you.


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## SomedayDig

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Okay, you asked. W is still in contact with OM, states that it's strictly friendship. Still does not get it. I am doing something of a 180, protecting myself, yet we are doing better. It may just be rug-sweeping - I still can't tell at this point. I'm trying to be the best husband I can be, yet cautious.


I am going to sound a little harsh, so I hope you understand.

THIS is completely 100% unacceptable. You should not be tolerating this one bit. No! She doesn't get it. Not in the least. There is no strictly friendship between a wayward spouse and an affair partner. THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST!!

Bobka, you can't do "something of a 180". You need to read the entire list. READ ME.

What she's doing is manipulative behavior and she's doing it knowing how you're going to react. In other words, it would appear that you are being played. And I don't like that. Neither should you. I understand that it is not typical of guys like you and I to have a "hardened heart", however even as someone who has ministered to hundreds (even those dealing with infidelity), you MUST have a strong heart and be fully willing to close it to her. Easier said than done. I can say though, because of experience, it works.


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## B1

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Okay, you asked. W is still in contact with OM, states that it's strictly friendship. Still does not get it. I am doing something of a 180, protecting myself, yet we are doing better. It may just be rug-sweeping - I still can't tell at this point. I'm trying to be the best husband I can be, yet cautious.
> 
> I believe what I'm doing now is working on myself, preparing for my own life, should she not come around. I used to be SO dependent upon her - she was my world. Well, she's not anymore, and I am practicing the things I need to do to be alone, if necessary.
> 
> When I told her she would have to pick him or me, she saw how serious I was. Soon, she may get an awakening. I am stronger now.
> 
> Please keep me, and us, in your prayers. And God bless you all!
> __________________
> 
> Welcome Stargazer. Glad you have found us. You will find marriages in all different states of disrepair (or repair) here. Make the most of what you learn, and lean on us if need be.


Glad you are working on you now, glad you are stronger and please remain that way. Stick with your ultimatum, she needs to know you are serious. I am sorry she is doing this, I just don't get it. I'm not going to get negative, but I don't understand how she can love you and still do something that is, knowingly, so painful to you. 

Gain you strength and make your stand! 

Prayers your way!


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## SomedayDig

EI said:


> That wasn't a "poke" to you, Z, it was to Dig! 'Cuz I'm pretty sure that he was making fun of my flowery and poetic musings to B1 earlier and referring to them as psycho-babble, mumbo-jumbo, or something like that! If that wasn't directed towards me, my apologies! LOL


OMG!!!! LMAO!

Okay, sometimes I read through older pages of the thread to see where we've been. THIS is awesome!! One of my first posts back in August made a comment about psycho-babble stuff. Goodness...I honestly did NOT realize that you thought I was making fun of you EI!! I wasn't at all. It was a commentary before I said what I said which was pretty low brow in how I said it.

Oh, dear. If only I had been able to "apologize" for that 6 months ago!!!

I'm sorry. It was not a slight toward you in the least. I enjoy reading your stuff. Even the ones that take up an entire page of my browser!!!


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## Mrs_Mathias

Just a quick note to send my thoughts to EI and B1 as you struggle with illness and preparing for your son's surgery tomorrow.

Stargazer, I'm so sorry for your journey that brought you here, but I second that this is the best thread in this environment. So many here are so strong, and very thoughtful in their advice, even when it's difficult. As the WS in my relationship, I have been on the receiving end of my husband's pain, and the pain of many others in this forum on my thread. I understand why. What I've done is truly horrible, and brings out many emotions from those who've faced it before, are currently facing it, or thought they'd put it behind them, only to have my story be a trigger. I am so grateful for the honest words from so many people here, but especially those who are able to work through their own pain to offer real advice and help to others. It's a gift that has been a real help for me as I work on turning my life around and waking up to realize that I've been a terrible person, BUT I don't have to continue to be that person.

HSE, be the best person YOU can be for YOU. I'm sure that will make you a good husband as well, because you seem like a generally truly good person. But you can't think about doing things for HER anymore. She needs to miss you. She needs to really SEE her life without you in it. The 180 is the best tool you have for that. Matt's 180 and actually visiting the lawyer together to start divorce proceedings were the BIGGEST factors in pulling me out of my fantasy and making me realize what I really want and need in my life. I wake up every day exceptionally grateful for every single moment that I have with my family. I am FIRMLY committed to R, and never repeating the mistakes of my past year. I hope that as time continues to pass, Matt moves closer to actively choosing R with me as well. But for now - I do the work for us. Your wife needs to make that choice and be willing to do the work for you. That is the minimum that you deserve at this point, IMO.

Calvin and CSS, I hope your festivities went well over the weekend! It's reassuring to hear that you navigated your D-Day anniversary relatively well. At times it's hard for Matt and I to imagine a future where every holiday, season, event that we enjoyed before isn't tainted by my affair. I appreciate so much you sharing your good times and tough times with us here.

---------------------------------------------------

Today is a tougher one for us. Matt woke early due to my snoring (  ) and those days tend to be more difficult for him as he just lies there in the dark and thinks about everything that I've done and the hurt I've caused him. I am hopeful that morning classes can be a distraction to him, and help turn his mood around for the day. I have a doctor appointment this morning that is causing me some additional stress. I am looking forward to finishing the day at work and being able to spend the evening at home with Matt and our son.

Thinking of everyone else that I didn't get a chance to mention specifically, and hoping its a decent Monday out there in Reconciland.


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## ChangingMe

Daisygirl, I obviously can't speak for your husband, but I would bet our savings that my husband thinks about my xOM way more than I do. When he crosses my mind, it is really like a trigger in itself. I swear to you that I do not "reminisce" or think any positive thoughts about my A or the time I spent with that person. I think of him mostly when I see DD having a hard time, when we are discussing what I did, or if something brings him to mind. It appears that I am much better at pushing him out of my mind than DD is. I do NOT want to think about him, so when my mind goes there, I quickly try to think of something else. It is my worst shame, the most damaging thing in my life -why would I WANT to think about him or the A? I want to erase every moment with that person. So I can see where your H is coming from. 

Star, welcome to the thread. I am sorry you are here, but I am glad you found us. Everyone is right -it sucks to be on an infidelity forum, but this thread is the best part of it. I encourage you to have your husband read. I am the wayward in my situation, and my husband (DevastatedDad) posted first, then brought me here. It has been very helpful for us. 

Bobka, I continue to pray for you. I'm sorry. I really would like to sit down with your wife and try to talk some since into her. And if that doesn't work, I'd like to shake her till she gets it. You deserve better than what she's giving you. 

B1, I am SO sorry EI is sick! I know she is stressed about the surgery; I hate that she has this to deal with on top of it. I really do wish I lived closed to you guys so I could pitch in and lend a hand. That's the hard part about an internet forum -you really form relationships with people, but they are too dang far away to offer more than words on a screen. Praying for her and the rest of your family though. 

Mrs.M, sending prayers to you and Matt as well. I hope the dr. appointment goes well and that today ends up being a good day despite Matt waking up early. 

Dig, it's good to hear from you. I think about you and Regret a lot, so it's nice to get an update. 

Cpacan, you seem to be one of the strongest people I know. The balance between taking care of yourself while you still hold out hope for your wife is very admirable. I know it isn't easy, but it's something you can be proud of yourself for. Maybe I could sit your wife down with Mrs. HSE and I can knock some since in both of them . . . 

Calvin & CSS, I'll be honest, I was holding my breath a little to how the anniversary would go, and I was beyond thrilled to hear how well it went. That speaks volumes for you both, and it's something you can both be proud of. Screw the xOM. That was not his day, that is YOUR day, just like everyday is. Way to reclaim! Good job pulling a "rookie" with that! :smthumbup:

Speaking of Rookie, I hope your toes are healing well & that nurse of yours is taking good care of you! 

Margrace, thinking of you, as always. 

OT, I hope you are having a good time -but not too good a time -in New Orleans. It's been years since I've been there, but that place is WILD. I hope it's a good way to clear your head. 

Anyone else, I hope you are doing well also. Thank you all so much for the thoughts and prayers last week. I needed them, and I feel like they helped a lot. I'm in a better place than I've been for a while. I'll write a bit about that, but this post is already getting EI-long.


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## calvin

EI long? I got a laught out of that.
Get well soon EI!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

B1 and EI, I hope all goes well with the surgery and I hope EI feels better soon. She must REALLY be sick to keep quiet this long. JK. I'm betting that a lot of it is nerves.


----------



## ChangingMe

Alright, here's my update:

I feel like I turned a bit of a corner last week. I actually set some boundaries with DD in counseling on Friday, which was a HUGE deal for me. I honestly wasn't sure how he would take it; if he would just tell me to get out or what. He pretty much just sat there, listened, and said he understood where I was coming from. (BTW, all I asked of him was to stop with the disparaging jokes and digs that have really started to escalate and to just treat me with some respect, i.e., not ignoring me in front of our children, since they pick up on that. I am not attempted to set demands or tell him to get over this or anything, I promise.) I felt better just getting my feelings out.

We talked more last night, and it was a hard conversation. DD is really going back and forth almost daily between wanting to work through things and being done. It was painful to hear. He was angry with me last week because he thinks that I believe he is not trying at all. I know he is trying, but I guess I honestly didn't see how hard. He wants to keep our family together, but he is still so angry and hurt about what I did. And I understand that. I really do. We haven't been talking much, and he said that's because the things he's thinking are harsh and he knows they will hurt me (like how frequently he thinks about filing for D, etc.) I told him, that I would still like to hear them, since when he doesn't share little by little, the feelings build, and then he gets enraged. 

It was a good talk, but a painful one. DD asked "What if I never forgive you? Are we done?" I told him that I wasn't. That I think, 7.5 months out, the feelings are still raw and strong, but we have good moments. I am not ready to call it quits, because I don't know where he and I will be a year, 2 years, 5 years from now. We both want our family intact, and he and I were once amazing together. I think we can be again, even if it will be different than it used to be. 

Though I think he's scared I will read too much into it, we did make love last night. We hadn't in weeks, and he told me last week that that was off the table. Whether it meant anything special or not, it was special. 

Here's hoping for more communication and less tension in the DD/CM house this week. And more sex would be nice too.


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## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> Alright, here's my update:
> 
> I feel like I turned a bit of a corner last week. I actually set some boundaries with DD in counseling on Friday, which was a HUGE deal for me. I honestly wasn't sure how he would take it; if he would just tell me to get out or what. He pretty much just sat there, listened, and said he understood where I was coming from. (BTW, all I asked of him was to stop with the disparaging jokes and digs that have really started to escalate and to just treat me with some respect, i.e., not ignoring me in front of our children, since they pick up on that. I am not attempted to set demands or tell him to get over this or anything, I promise.) I felt better just getting my feelings out.
> 
> We talked more last night, and it was a hard conversation. DD is really going back and forth almost daily between wanting to work through things and being done. It was painful to hear. He was angry with me last week because he thinks that I believe he is not trying at all. I know he is trying, but I guess I honestly didn't see how hard. He wants to keep our family together, but he is still so angry and hurt about what I did. And I understand that. I really do. We haven't been talking much, and he said that's because the things he's thinking are harsh and he knows they will hurt me (like how frequently he thinks about filing for D, etc.) I told him, that I would still like to hear them, since when he doesn't share little by little, the feelings build, and then he gets enraged.
> 
> It was a good talk, but a painful one. DD asked "What if I never forgive you? Are we done?" I told him that I wasn't. That I think, 7.5 months out, the feelings are still raw and strong, but we have good moments. I am not ready to call it quits, because I don't know where he and I will be a year, 2 years, 5 years from now. We both want our family intact, and he and I were once amazing together. I think we can be again, even if it will be different than it used to be.
> 
> Though I think he's scared I will read too much into it, we did make love last night. We hadn't in weeks, and he told me last week that that was off the table. Whether it meant anything special or not, it was special.
> 
> Here's hoping for more communication and less tension in the DD/CM house this week. And more sex would be nice too.


I'm happy to hear you two are talking more and especially about the difficult subjects and feelings. You do realize that he still loves you just based on the fact that he didn't want to hurt you by discussing his thoughts. That right there tells me he's still fighting for R. I hope DD reads this thread because he needs to know that sex between a couple is so important. Its a biological physical representation of reconciliation. The chemicals released are imperative for healthy couple bonding. And I'm not just talking about the brain chemicals either. 

A healthy sex life also helps with depression and PTSD symptoms. I think that is why many couples go through a hyper bonding period when first in R. It biologically solidifies the union. Dr. Helen Fisher wrote extensively about this in her book _Anatomy of Love_. I also think that his question to you is very telling. To me it screams of a fear that forgiving you will lead to further betrayal and heartbreak. Its a hump that he needs to get over and eventually will as long as he doesn't give up on R.


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## Rookie4

CM and everyone, my toes (whats left of them) are feeling better and I can walk (hobble) pretty good. I have to put my foot up from time to time, to relieve the feeling of pressure, but all in all I'm much better now. I'm not going to be running any Marathons anytime soon, however.
CM, I'm getting pretty good at the "reclaiming ", part of R. Every time something triggers me, I meet it head-on and figure out a way to turn it to my advantage, and deal with it on MY terms. I don't know what to call what I'm doing, but I DO know it works good at relieving the anxiety and stress of the triggers, and re-affirms my sense of self-worth.


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## SomedayDig

CM...you had an affair. DD was hurt immensely by that truth. However, you asking to not be the butt end of jokes is not wrong. If both spouses are truly working on reconciliation, then boundaries need to be set on BOTH sides of the issue.

I know how DD feels, though. I happen to have a very sharp tongue. Regret knows that I would never physically harm her, yet some of the venom that has spewed from my mouth would be enough to drive others away for good.

She asked me to watch myself recently. I took a long look at the way in which I have spoken to her in those dark times. And it hurt to know that I was so harsh.

Let DD know that I understand (and from reading this thread so do B1 and others) because I've been in that anger. I've been in that dark place. I've been in the spot where I've looked at my life and said "I WANT OUT!!!" "F YOU FOR WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO US!!!"

And when that anger is released and felt a tiny piece of scar tissue fills in the spot from where it came. Soon...that's all my anger over Regret's affair will be. A scar. Something I won't forget, yet something that doesn't hurt any more.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

EI/B1 - Oh no! So sorry you guys have come down with the bug, and at such an inconvenient moment. It ripped through our house about a week ago, and it was a really bad bug. Only good thing I can share is that it was pretty quick - 24 hours at the most. Will keep my fingers crossed that it passes quickly. You may want to notify the doctors that the bug is working through your house, not sure they will want to proceed with the operation if your son may have been exposed directly. Given how severely the muscles in your abdomen and back can spasm while puking, seems like it might be something they would want to avoid during the recovery window. Just my two cents.

SG - Welcome. Always great to hear that this thread can help provide insight and comfort when people need it most. Stay in the fight and keep swinging. It will get easier.

HSE/Bobka - I truly feel for you man. I can only imagine the internal battle you are currently in. Your self respect duking it out with your fear of losing your wife. I do have to agree that there is no "kinda" when doing the 180. There is no focusing on "being the best husband possible" in the 180. You aren't doing the 180. Read it again and implement strictly if you want to gain the benefits. 

So you have stepped up and told your wife she must choose between OM and you. To this I would normally say - way to go! But given that you set the ultimatum and are now allowing her to eat her cake, I am fearful you are turning a really bad situation worse. You have not backed it up with actions, which means you are TRAINING your wife to behave in this way. You are saying the right things, but not taking action. 

Sound familiar? It should, your wife is doing THE EXACT SAME THING! She TELLS you that she loves you, that you are the most important thing in her life. But what do her ACTIONS say?

As I have stated before, you must be willing to lose your marriage if you want to save it. You are ensuring a very bad outcome by continuing down this path. It is almost physically difficult for me to read your updates, as I can see where it is going to end up. Please HSE, LISTEN TO US. We are here FOR you. We all want you to be successful. You MUST hand down consequences for your wife's continued unnaceptable treatement of you and your marriage. 

You gave the ultimatum, she called your bluff. Time to deliver on the consequences. Either she moves out (preferred, as she is the one fvcking this whole thing up!) or you need to move out. Like yesterday! 

This is one of those moments in life you only get one shot at. You can do this. Be strong for you and your wife. Calmly deliver the consequences, and DO the 180!


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## TCSRedhead

EI / B1 - Hoping that EI gets to feeling better soon and all goes well with the upcoming surgery!


----------



## old timer

Still in Nawlins. Went some uptown parades yesterday and enjoyed a pub crawl through the French Quarter last night. 

MG Parades ended yesterday until after Super Bowl next Sunday, and then MG will crank back up. 

SB volunteer orientation has been moved from today til tomorrow, so I won't be headed back home until late Tuesday night or Wed AM. 

Then I'll come back down next Friday, work SB and go home again Monday. Coming back that weekend for the final days of MG. 

Lot of driving in my immediate future, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

old timer said:


> Still in Nawlins. Went some uptown parades yesterday and enjoyed a pub crawl through the French Quarter last night.
> 
> MG Parades ended yesterday until after Super Bowl next Sunday, and then MG will crank back up.
> 
> SB volunteer orientation has been moved from today til tomorrow, so I won't be headed back home until late Tuesday night or Wed AM.
> 
> Then I'll come back down next Friday, work SB and go home again Monday. Coming back that weekend for the final days of MG.
> 
> Lot of driving in my immediate future, lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OT - sounds great! Matt and I honeymooned in NO, and went back there last fall for our 10th anniversary. If you are a fan of italian and seafood - I highly recommend Adolfo's on Frenchman Street. It's a total hole in the wall upstairs from a bar, but the food was delicious! I'd be 1000 pounds if I lived there - all I do is think about the food all the time.


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## happyman64

CM

Let me rephrase this for you....



> Here's hoping for more communication and less tension in the DD/CM house this week. And more *loving* would be nice too.


Anyone can have sex. And married couples have sex too. But the real difference is when love is added to the sex. That is when the real magic happens.

I pray for better days ahead for you and DD. And yes he is scared. 

What BS wouldn't be. Ease his fears. Communicate with him. Love him.

I am sure he will return the favors in time.


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## EI

Too sick for an epic EI post. Thanks for all of the well wishes. I wish I could address each of you but I don't have it in me. B1 took me to the doctor and I have Norovirus and a few other assorted maladies. A shot, a prescription and a referral to a specialist later (when I have time..... LOL) and we're on our way home. 

B1 says he can't get through tomorrow without me. I couldn't get through a single day without him.

Take care of each other, Reconcilers...... and, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers in the coming days.

I love you guys. <3

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> Take care of each other, Reconcilers...... and, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers in the coming days.
> 
> I love you guys. <3
> 
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How could we not keep you in or thoughts?
Take care and get through.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> Too sick for an epic EI post. Thanks for all of the well wishes. I wish I could address each of you but I don't have it in me. B1 took me to the doctor and I have Norovirus and a few other assorted maladies. A shot, a prescription and a referral to a specialist later (when I have time..... LOL) and we're on our way home.
> 
> B1 says he can't get through tomorrow without me. I couldn't get through a single day without him.
> 
> Take care of each other, Reconcilers...... and, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers in the coming days.
> 
> I love you guys. <3
> 
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm praying for you. Don't forget to pray together.


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## CantSitStill

EI you might need to cancel his surgery, you have to take care of yourself in order to take care of him. Hope you feel better soon. Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

EI said:


> Too sick for an epic EI post. Thanks for all of the well wishes. I wish I could address each of you but I don't have it in me. B1 took me to the doctor and I have Norovirus and a few other assorted maladies. A shot, a prescription and a referral to a specialist later (when I have time..... LOL) and we're on our way home.
> 
> B1 says he can't get through tomorrow without me. I couldn't get through a single day without him.
> 
> Take care of each other, Reconcilers...... and, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers in the coming days.
> 
> I love you guys. <3
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


feel better, EI!


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## margrace

StarGazer101 said:


> ...I am a B/S and DDay 1 was 22nd April 2012. Married 23 years and it blew my world apart! We have been trying to R since that day, but it has been terribly difficult. W/H has TT'd all the way, broke NC for the first 3 weeks, and generally has massive difficulty with giving me the truth and talking about any of it. We have made progress but it has been slow and very painful and often 3 steps forward 3 steps back.
> 
> I took strength from you and gave him an ultimatum about being truthful and I now finally know that his relationship with a work colleague became an E/A around July/August 2009 and became a P/A December 2009. That it has taken this long for him to finally be honest about these basic facts will give you an idea of just how difficult our R process has been for us. Any truths that I know are ones that I found myself through checking emails, diaries phone records etc and even then there were lies, denials until final admissions.
> 
> My W/H assures me that he is sincere in his desire to R but finds it very difficult to talk about things. The TT, lies and the depth of the betrayal have made it _almost_ impossible for me to believe him, and I am so wary of being taken for a fool *again.* ..... I have been guilty so many times of believing what I wanted to believe and that shames me. I still don't believe that W/H *really* understands the depths that this takes a B/S to; although I believe that his understanding has developed from his original stance.
> 
> Where I am now is that I want to move on from the pain and create a future. I can do this. I love him, I don't want to punish him, I don't want this A to define my life, and I believe that we have the potential to have a good marriage in the future.
> 
> He has kept to NC, since the middle of May, removed password from phone, given me access to emails and fb and I believe that he wants to R. I'm not sure that he is genuinely remorseful as opposed to feeling guilty and I believe that is our biggest issue. I need to know that there is at least a fighting chance that this won't happen again because he has taken responsibility and looked within his heart and been honest with himself about many of the things that took us to where we are now as I have tried to do.
> 
> Thank You All


welcome, sg!

oh my, i could have almost written your entire post not so long ago. dday for my WM and i was about 10 months ago. same here with the TT, the difficulty that we have had in talking through things. slow, painful -- yes. WH only acknowledged things i found out myself -- yes. and the deception has been the most devastating part of all this for me.

l also learned SO much from this thread. the WSs humanized my WH's behavior when he was nearly unable to explain himself. and the BSs perserverance, and the progress that i saw them make, have kept me putting one foot in front of another.

things are actually looking much better now, finally, and our MC is proving to be instrumental in this.

is your H at all willing to go to counseling?


----------



## calvin

margrace said:


> welcome, sg!
> 
> oh my, i could have almost written your entire post not so long ago. dday for my WM and i was about 10 months ago. same here with the TT, the difficulty that we have had in talking through things. slow, painful -- yes. WH only acknowledged things i found out myself -- yes. and the deception has been the most devastating part of all this for me.
> 
> l also learned SO much from this thread. the WSs humanized my WH's behavior when he was nearly unable to explain himself. and the BSs perserverance, and the progress that i saw them make, have kept me putting one foot in front of another.
> 
> things are actually looking much better now, finally, and our MC is proving to be instrumental in this.
> 
> is your H at all willing to go to counseling?


Its nice to hear good news marg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Interesting question. When Sweetie and I began to talk last fall, I told her point blank that there would be no re-marriage. She said that the marriage wasn't the important part, that being my woman was and is the only thing that has meaning for her. So...my question to the WS's is, what was/is your priority? Preserving the marriage or loving you spouse? These are not necessarily the same things. If your spouse decided like me to divorce, would you do what Sweetie has done, to prove your love? I read many posts where the WS talks about "saving", the marriage, fewer about proving to your BS that you love only him/her. So, What IS your priority?


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## happyman64

Great question Rookie!!!

EI,

I hope you start feeling better.

HM64


----------



## calvin

That is a good question Rookie,one that I feel the BS's would like to hear an answer from our WS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Getting ready to head to the hospital for our sons surgery. It's a very invasive and rough surgery, steel rods in his back. So, we are nervous as is he. 

Thank goodness EI is better. She starting feeling better last night and this morning she's moving along pretty good. Being her busy cute little self. 

Anyway, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers today.


Rookie, good question but one that won't look good for me. EI was done with me, checked out and done done. If we would have had the means she would have divorced me in a heartbeat. Working on us didn't start until after Dday #2 and we HAD to live together at least until we could afford to divorce. But, as you can see, that lead to where we are today. A miracle is what our therapist calls it.

EI can elaborate more on this later..


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## SomedayDig

Prayers to you guys B1 and EI. Glad to read that you're feeling better.


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## happyman64

B1 said:


> Getting ready to head to the hospital for our sons surgery. It's a very invasive and rough surgery, steel rods in his back. So, we are nervous as is he.
> 
> Thank goodness EI is better. She starting feeling better last night and this morning she's moving along pretty good. Being her busy cute little self.
> 
> Anyway, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers today.
> 
> 
> Rookie, good question but one that won't look good for me. EI was done with me, checked out and done done. If we would have had the means she would have divorced me in a heartbeat. Working on us didn't start until after Dday #2 and we HAD to live together at least until we could afford to divorce. But, as you can see, that lead to where we are today. A miracle is what our therapist calls it.
> 
> EI can elaborate more on this later..


I believe in miracles.....

My thoughts are on your boy for a successful surgery.


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## joe kidd

Best of luck B1/EI


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## ChangingMe

Praying for your son, and the rest of the family as well.


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## calvin

God bless,pray all goes well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

EI, I'm happy you are feeling better. You seem to show your greatest strength when its needed most. B1 you are always a rock. Your son is extremely fortunate to have you both there for him. I'm praying that his surgery comes off without a hitch.


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## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> Interesting question. When Sweetie and I began to talk last fall, I told her point blank that there would be no re-marriage. She said that the marriage wasn't the important part, that being my woman was and is the only thing that has meaning for her. So...my question to the WS's is, what was/is your priority? Preserving the marriage or loving you spouse? These are not necessarily the same things. If your spouse decided like me to divorce, would you do what Sweetie has done, to prove your love? I read many posts where the WS talks about "saving", the marriage, fewer about proving to your BS that you love only him/her. So, What IS your priority?


This is an interesting question. I was married at 21 and will be 35 this year. I have literally been married pretty much my entire adult life. Loving DD feels synonymous on many levels with being married to him. I barely remember what it was like to be with him and not be married to him (we were friends for a few years, but only dated 1 year before we married). When I picture us together, we are married in what I envision, because that's how it's been. And ultimately (though I realize I didn't show this during my A), being married IS important to me. I want to be his wife and to call him my husband.

That being said, less than a week after DDay, DD asked me to come to the house to talk. During that conversation, I told him that I knew he was the one I wanted. That, even if he divorced me, I would continue to work to show him what he meant to me, and that it would be my desire to be one of those couples you hear about that divorced, feel back in love after a couple years, and remarried down the road. I meant that then, and I still do. Our kids are 3 and 5, we will be closely involved in each other's lives for many, many years (just signed both kids up for T-ball yesterday -we have years of practices, games, parent/teacher conferences, recitals, etc. still to come). We would still have to communicate and see each other regularly, and I was committed to using that time to work on me and prove to him that he was who I wanted. I hope it doesn't have to come to us getting divorced, but I still feel certain that I would continue to work to prove my feelings for him.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Thinking of you, B1 and EI.

Rookie, as far as your question goes, I am dedicated to rebuilding a relationship with Matt. I love him, and want to spend every day for the rest of my life showing that to him. But I also want to rebuild a marriage with him. If he chose to divorce me, I would not give up on us. But I know that our marriage is important to me, that having the opportunity to pledge those vows and really understand deep in my soul what that means after all we've faced is something incredibly powerful.

But it will take a lot of work from me to show Matt that's how I feel. When he asks why I want to stay married to him, the reasons I give - that I love him, that I know we are the people most suited to grow old together, that our friendship and family is the most valuable thing in my life - don't have a lot of meaning right now because I was betraying those reasons so recently. He's struggling with my "rapid" change of heart. I equate it to a near-death/death experience. I couldn't see clearly what I was losing until it seemed like it was lost and then it was like being thrown headfirst into a frozen river. The shock and acute awareness I felt when I thought I would never see Matt, talk to him, and hold him in my arms was overwhelming. It's about HIM. The marriage is very precious to me, but I know why Matt doesn't feel that way right now. I want him to have whatever he needs, and that may mean a divorce. But I am going to try to convince him otherwise with my actions and my love.


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## daisygirl 41

Thoughts and prayers to EI and B1
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Hubby is back to work tomorrow!
I've got that sicky feeling in my tummy!
It's going to be tough!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hubby is back to work tomorrow!
> I've got that sicky feeling in my tummy!
> It's going to be tough!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It'll all be fine 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> It'll all be fine
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks CSS.
I know I've got to stay positive.
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hubby is back to work tomorrow!
> I've got that sicky feeling in my tummy!
> It's going to be tough!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hugs, DG! I know it's got to be hard to have him there. Just keep very open communication with him, and have him do the same with you.


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## Acabado

Finger crossed EI&B1.


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## daisygirl 41

ChangingMe said:


> Hugs, DG! I know it's got to be hard to have him there. Just keep very open communication with him, and have him do the same with you.


Thanks CM.
One good thing that has come out of it is that his work place have referred him to ocupational health so that means he can go and get some free councilling (sp?). Ive been trying to persuade him to go for nearly 2 years now, i really think it will help him. I know it did me the world of good.


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## Rookie4

B1 said:


> Getting ready to head to the hospital for our sons surgery. It's a very invasive and rough surgery, steel rods in his back. So, we are nervous as is he.
> 
> Thank goodness EI is better. She starting feeling better last night and this morning she's moving along pretty good. Being her busy cute little self.
> 
> Anyway, please keep us in your thoughts and prayers today.
> 
> 
> Rookie, good question but one that won't look good for me. EI was done with me, checked out and done done. If we would have had the means she would have divorced me in a heartbeat. Working on us didn't start until after Dday #2 and we HAD to live together at least until we could afford to divorce. But, as you can see, that lead to where we are today. A miracle is what our therapist calls it.
> 
> EI can elaborate more on this later..


B1, don't give it a second thought. When the surgery is successful and over and EI is feeling better , then we can discuss it. Right now, be the strong Papa for your family.


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thinking of you, B1 and EI.
> 
> Rookie, as far as your question goes, I am dedicated to rebuilding a relationship with Matt. I love him, and want to spend every day for the rest of my life showing that to him. But I also want to rebuild a marriage with him. If he chose to divorce me, I would not give up on us. But I know that our marriage is important to me, that having the opportunity to pledge those vows and really understand deep in my soul what that means after all we've faced is something incredibly powerful.
> 
> But it will take a lot of work from me to show Matt that's how I feel. When he asks why I want to stay married to him, the reasons I give - that I love him, that I know we are the people most suited to grow old together, that our friendship and family is the most valuable thing in my life - don't have a lot of meaning right now because I was betraying those reasons so recently. He's struggling with my "rapid" change of heart. I equate it to a near-death/death experience. I couldn't see clearly what I was losing until it seemed like it was lost and then it was like being thrown headfirst into a frozen river. The shock and acute awareness I felt when I thought I would never see Matt, talk to him, and hold him in my arms was overwhelming. It's about HIM. The marriage is very precious to me, but I know why Matt doesn't feel that way right now. I want him to have whatever he needs, and that may mean a divorce. But I am going to try to convince him otherwise with my actions and my love.


MM and CM, thanks for your kind responses. It was Sweetie's proving that she wanted to be my woman, and nothing else mattered, plus her submissiveness during the divorce, that first gave me the idea that she was a truly remorseful and changed woman, and went a long way to restoring my trust in her . Since then, she has NEVER wavered in her love and desire for me. If her priority was to save the marriage, that , in itself, would have turned me away from her permanently. I HAD to know that I was the ONLY man she loved and desired. Nothing else would have been good enough.
I think that this is the ONE thing both of you need to make sure that your BS's understand and believe. Unfortunately, it is the hardest to prove, except by passage of time and consistant actions.
We see , here on TAM, a lot of ws's who mourn their affairs and miss their affair partners. I don't see how they could do so, and still consider themselves remorseful or put forth the work and honesty needed to R.


----------



## EI

Our son is in surgery now and it is supposed to last a minimum of 6 hours. I don't know when I have ever been this anxious in my life. I just hope that when all is said and done that this improves his condition, improves his health, lessens his discomfort and that it was the right decision to have made for him. 

He has Cerebral-Palsy and MMR. Without being politically correct MMR stands for Mild Mental Retardation. He was born 10 weeks prematurely and we'll probably never know the full extent of what he endured in his biological mother's womb. He is my biological nephew, my brother and his ex wife are his birth parents. This isn't the brother who passed away 8 years ago. B1 and I got custody of him and his sister in 1999 and officially adopted them in 2003. They have been living with us since 1996. Prior to that, they lived with my parents from the time she was 2 and he was a newborn. In 1996, B1 and I had 3 boys, then ages 6, 3 1/2, and 1. My parents were getting older and their health was beginning to decline. B1 and I sold our home and my parents sold their home and we built a home, together, with 7 bedrooms, 4 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, 2 living rooms, 2 laundry rooms, a huge playroom, 3 finished floors in all, 2 1/2 car garage, fenced in yard and, eventually, an above ground pool with a deck around it. 

For someone like me, who loved my family and my parents, the idea of having us all under one roof sounded like a dream come true. I loved to have friends over, cook dinner and entertain. The house was beautiful........... This way, I convinced myself, I would have an easier time taking care of my parents, blending all 5 of the children's lives together (to fulfill a promise I'd made to my mother about my (then) niece and nephew, and a wonderful home, in a neighborhood with two lakes in it for fishing, to raise our children in.

Hmmm.......... Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it........

Nearly 17 years later and we've buried both of my parents and my oldest brother (not the children's bio father.) In those early years, B1 had to travel a great deal of the time for his job. My mother's health rapidly declined and for the last 2 years of her life she was in the hospital more than at home. I was trying to raise 5 kids, take care of my parents, and be the best wife I could be. It was exhausting. B1 and I had to deal with so much interference from my brother (even while he was in prison) and his ex-wife during those years, as well. They didn't want to raise and support their children, they just didn't want to lose "their rights." To them, the children represented having their hand in the cookie jar. They were concerned that B1 and I would "get it ALL." To this day I still laugh to myself when I think about them worrying about "us" ending up with everything. Let me tell you what "ALL" we've gotten. We've supported the children.... There was never one dime of child support paid to us by either of their birth parents. I shower, dress, feed, lift/transfer, change (as in diapers) "their" son. NO...... He's our son. Parenting is not an entitlement. It's a blessing and a responsibility...... 

Between B1, the kids and me, we have had more disorders, deficiencies, and diseases than I can count. We have seen the inside of a doctor's office and hospital more than our share of times. We've had medical bills that even with very good health insurance are staggering. We've been through bankruptcy, we've been sued, we've been through the devastation and humiliation of having a son get into serious legal trouble, for a foolish prank, that cost a lot of money, too many tears (good thing tears are unlimted) and ruined a Christmas. We've felt the heartache of taking our youngest two children out of the private school they loved and had attended for 7 years and putting them into public school because we couldn't afford it, anymore. Then, just a few weeks later, our youngest son who was having a hard time adjusting to a very different school environment, had just come off of a 5 month round of Accutane, and whose first girlfriend had broken up with him wrote individual notes to B1, me, each of his siblings and his ex-girlfriend and took an overdose. Afterwards, he spent 10 days in a mental health facility. Was it the change of school, the Accutane, the girlfriend breaking up with him, etc...... Who knows? As a mom, though, it doesn't really matter...... It all comes back to me. I should have known, I should have "fixed" him before all of that happened.

I could go on and on, and I do..... I'm just sitting in a waiting room, with B1, my rock, my strength and my protector, hoping and praying that I made the right decision this time. Yeah, my brother thinks I've got it "ALL." Wouldn't he be surprised to know what "ALL" I got?

Take care of each other, Reconcilers!

More later........

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

You two are simply amazing.

There is nothing else to say.


----------



## StarGazer101

calvin said:


> Hi Star and welcome to B1 and EI thread.
> I'm a BH and my FWW CantSitStill post on here as well.
> Sorry youre here but you will find some really good people with good advice as well as a wonderful support group.
> If you have to be here,you landed on a excellent thread and you'll find lots of help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Thank you for your welcome calvin ..... I am glad to make your acquaintance. ... although the circumstances aren't the best. This thread, and you people have been such a help to me already. .


----------



## StarGazer101

B1 said:


> Welcome SG,
> Welcome to a club no one wants to be in, but hey, if your in it, this is the place, I hope, that can help you with R, if that's your goal and it sounds like it is.
> 
> First, I am so sorry for what you are enduring. Many on here know your pain all to well and many also know your struggles about getting ALL of the truth.
> 
> My WW was very upfront about it all, I was lucky there, if you can call that luck. There are others though that are, or have, struggled with getting their WS to talk about it and get it ALL out on the table. I am certain they will speak up and help you some.
> 
> My Dday #2 was in May of 2012, so we are close to the same in that area.
> 
> I am sure you have read on here but sometime writing things out helps, write your husband an email, see if he can open up more that way. Me and my wife would talk via email a lot during work hours. We got a lot out during that time. Not that we were not talking in person, but we did use email a lot and texting.
> 
> It's has to be hard to know there is more but they wont open up. I can't imagine that. I wanted to know it all and I wanted to know it all NOW. My wife opened up immediately. She tt's for about 2 weeks on a couple issues and that was it. From then on she was an open book.
> 
> Hopefully your husband will open up fully soon, maybe after reading some on here he will understand how CRITICAL it is to open up and give you everything you ask for, he does owe you that much. And if he truly wants to R, then he needs too. I know it can be difficult to for him to talk about what he did, but he's in the light, he knows it all and your in darkness, and that's not a place he needs to leave you in. IF he loves you, then he needs to open up and relieve you of this "not knowing pain."
> 
> Stick around others will respond also, and hang in there, time is our friend. Glad your here and sorry at the same time, hope you know what I mean SG


 Hello B1 ..... thank you. I have followed your and EIs' journey and been so moved by both of you ..... I don't have the words to say what I'd like to .... but they would be heartfelt!

I am hoping my FWH will take great notice of what you have to say. I think the email idea might be useful for us - some of our "talks" are very draining. Perhaps that might be a way to lighten the load a little and maybe he will open up. I will discuss it with him


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## joe kidd

Yay! Taxes are done! And........I don't owe this year! WOOOO HOOO!


----------



## StarGazer101

cpacan said:


> Welcome Stargazer, to the thread where you get inspiration, support and comfort when times get rough. And they will do so for a while, I can almost promise you that.
> 
> A short note on the TT. Your husband needs to realize that it's usually not the affair in itself that hurts and makes forgiveness so hard - it's all the surrounding lies and deceptions. If he won't or can't understand that, you must give some further instructions - that's what I did in order to stop my wife's endless small and big lies, minimizations etc.
> 
> One day, I simply had enough of it. I told her: *If you lie to me one more time, and I don't care if it is about when you got out of bed this morning, one more lie, and I will leave you. The important thing here is, that you must be willing to mean it 100%,* and I did. She hasn't lied to me since. This incident was a little more than a year ago, but I still mean it today. One more lie, and our marriage will be history.
> 
> She does not want to talk much about things anymore, though, but that's a different story - better that than the lies.
> 
> I wish you the best in your R. Take care.


I *absolutely* hear you! And I thank you.... I hope my FWH does too!


----------



## Acabado

SomedayDig said:


> You two are simply amazing.
> 
> There is nothing else to say.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## StarGazer101

SomedayDig said:


> SG...as B1 said, we're sorry that you are here, however we're glad you felt comfortable enough to post your story.
> 
> This is a very difficult thing you are trying to do. Reconciliation is not for the feint at heart. It is not for the weak. The one thing it does take is for BOTH spouses to be 100% brutally honest with each other. That means no more TT and no more hiding things that may have happened throughout the ENTIRETY of the affair.
> 
> I say it that way because that is where my wife, Regret214, has had some problems discussing her affair. A lot of times when I would ask her specific questions about the affair, she usually only commented about things that happened within the last year of her affair...basically forgetting that there were 4 other years she had to be accountable for.
> 
> For the most part, I have seen that this behavior is a horrible self defense mechanism of someone who had a huge ego driven life that I didn't even know about. In a couple weeks we will hit 11 months since Dday (3/6/2012). We have both learned so much about each other since then.
> 
> I'm glad to see you write about not being taken for a fool again. That is exactly what my concentration has been on for the last few weeks in IC and MC. Regret knows how much she hurt me...not with just the affair, but the continued trickle truths that I endured that only served to set me and us back. 4/22, 5/5, 6/24 and 8/30. Those are the dates I learned "the truth". Those are the dates that each time she proclaimed "now you know everything".
> 
> Problem is, since that last one...one that actually played out in this thread, I have been guarded. Even though I don't have my Spider Senses tingling (which happened a lot back then), I'm still fearful of being taken a fool. She does everything she can on a daily basis to help me and comfort me with this struggle. Some days I don't think about it at all. Others...well, it's hard to shake. That is a big reason why I've been a little more than absent as of late on the forums. Some days I just don't want to come here. I'm sure we've all been there before!
> 
> Anyway, keep sharing here and reading. If your husband just reads this from your profile that should be enough. If he signs up and you both decide to post your story on your own thread, I will warn you...it will not be easy. You can look up how EI was treated and also Regret214. They were beaten up pretty badly initially. They stuck it out, though. They proved themselves (in my eyes at least).
> 
> In the end, remember...this is a forum where you will read things that make you, even as a BS, cringe. There are a lot of hurting souls here. Some cannot keep their hurt to themselves and lash out. However, most do offer a great deal of advice. And a lot of it is good.
> 
> Peace to you.


 Thank you SomedayDig ... if I have to be anywhere under these circumstances this seems the best of them. 

I have been through so many DDays that I could advise Churchill! Humour aside... my FWH has agreed to join the forum and I believe from what I have seen, that we can both benefit in different ways from participating here.


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## EI

Welcome StarGazer and TCSRedhead. I'm glad you found us and I hope you continue sharing your stories, here, as they progress. daisy girl, I know it's going to be difficult for you when your husband goes back to work. But, the two of you have used this time that he has been off to strengthen your marital foundation and you and he are both much stronger individuals now, too. We're here for you to vent. 

Margrace, your comments are always so beautifully written they almost sound like poetry, but it's your life. I so hope that your husband opens up to you so that you, he and your marriage can begin to heal. HSE and cpacan, my heart simply hurts for both of you. Rookie, minus a few toes, you seem to be doing quite well. Calvin and CSS, I wonder if anyone else has noticed over the last few weeks that Calvin is triggering much less and seems to be more "all in" than ever before. Dig, it's good to see you on thread, again. Everyone brings their own unique, something special and it's not the same without you. Joe, I hope you and Pidge are doing better and I have added your daughter to my prayer list. Rags, share your story with us. OT, it's hard for me to muster up a lot of sympathy for you right now, since you're whoopin' it up in NOLA. Check back with me next week! ;-) HM64, Bfree, Decorum, NEVERHAPPEN2ME, RIGHT?, and Mr. Blunt, I love your posts....... Keep them coming. Acabado, your posts, as I have told you before, are simply inspiring to me. They literally speak to me when I read them and give me hope and direction. Mrs. Mathias, I'm so glad that you are sharing your story with us. Your D-Day was so recent and I know you are feeling like you are climbing an uphill battle...... We all are..... keep climbing. CM..... I talk to you all of the time.... LOL

One last comment from EI. I don't think we realize how much a part of our lives TAM becomes when it is our reconciliation/recovery lifeline. B1 and I were eating at Wendy's the other day. They are serving "special" coffee, now. One of them is called "Red Head."'I had to look at it 3 times because I could have sworn it said "TCSRedhead," and I couldn't figure out why...... smh...... True Story!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Stargazer, I'm so sorry for your journey that brought you here, but I second that this is the best thread in this environment. So many here are so strong, and very thoughtful in their advice, even when it's difficult. As the WS in my relationship, I have been on the receiving end of my husband's pain, and the pain of many others in this forum on my thread. I understand why. What I've done is truly horrible, and brings out many emotions from those who've faced it before, are currently facing it, or thought they'd put it behind them, only to have my story be a trigger. I am so grateful for the honest words from so many people here, but especially those who are able to work through their own pain to offer real advice and help to others. It's a gift that has been a real help for me as I work on turning my life around and waking up to realize that I've been a terrible person, *BUT I don't have to continue to be that person.
> *


 MrsM I hope my husband can develop the same level of understanding that you have ... thank you


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## StarGazer101

ChangingMe said:


> Star, welcome to the thread. I am sorry you are here, but I am glad you found us. Everyone is right - it sucks to be on an infidelity forum, but this thread is the best part of it. I encourage you to have your husband read. I am the wayward in my situation, and my husband (DevastatedDad) posted first, then brought me here. It has been very helpful for us.


 Thank you CM ... I am hoping we can both move forward and learn how to do this R thing a bit better than we have thus far.


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## StarGazer101

margrace said:


> welcome, sg!
> 
> oh my, i could have almost written your entire post not so long ago. dday for my WM and i was about 10 months ago. same here with the TT, the difficulty that we have had in talking through things. slow, painful -- yes. WH only acknowledged things i found out myself -- yes. and the deception has been the most devastating part of all this for me.
> 
> *l also learned SO much from this thread. the WSs humanized my WH's behavior when he was nearly unable to explain himself. and the BSs perserverance, and the progress that i saw them make, have kept me putting one foot in front of another*.
> 
> things are actually looking much better now, finally, and our MC is proving to be instrumental in this.
> 
> is your H at all willing to go to counseling?


 Yes margrace I believe we have much in common - I have shed tears for myself at several of your posts. #hug

We started MC around 3 weeks after DDay 1 ..... it made a difference, but mostly for me I think. FWH TT'd and lied to her as well, so anything that appeared to be built had foundations of sand. 

Having learned from this forum I now believe she was a "rugsweeper" and I ended our sessions last week. I would like to find another though, so I think we will look for another with a bit better idea of what we are looking for.


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> You two are simply amazing.
> 
> There is nothing else to say.


Thank you, Dig! That's very kind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I'm triggering a lot less,I never thought it would take a year til I was half assed comfortable.
Even without it going physical its still hard as hell but it gets better every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

EI and B1 you are amazing parents. Seriously you guys have gotta be tired..6 hour surgery? oh man..all that you two have been through is just unbelievable..anyway I'm praying all goes smooth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

Wow.
E1 and B1, you are an amazing couple. You never seize too amaze me. Good luck.


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## joe kidd

Hope all is well with EI and B1. Pidge and I are ok. I've been in a month long funk that I can't seem to snap. Not on her, just something I have to work through. 
I am a very stubborn man. (gasp!) She is a very headstrong woman. (gasp again!) So when you have 2 type A's in the room there will be some clashes every now and then.


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## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



ChangingMe said:


> Cpacan, you seem to be one of the strongest people I know. The balance between taking care of yourself while you still hold out hope for your wife is very admirable. I know it isn't easy, but it's something you can be proud of yourself for. Maybe I could sit your wife down with Mrs. HSE and I can knock some since in both of them . . .


CM, thank you for this, it touched me deeply. It is a very delicate balance, my psyc thinks it will be tough for me to keep it, but I will try nonetheless.

If you could do that to my wife, you can have her... For a very long session, take your time, don't rush it

Thanks again.


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## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

I thought I should just post a small update to let you all know that I can also have uplifting times

We have just had 4 days in a row, where I have felt the love she once had for me again. I helped her with a report for a course she's taking. We worked close together, and I really felt her love and respect again. It was very nice. I couldn't resist feeling good about it, couldn't hold back and made her feel loved as well. Just wanted to share.


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## B1

joe kidd said:


> Hope all is well with EI and B1. Pidge and I are ok. I've been in a month long funk that I can't seem to snap. Not on her, just something I have to work through.
> I am a very stubborn man. (gasp!) She is a very headstrong woman. (gasp again!) So when you have 2 type A's in the room there will be some clashes every now and then.


Joe....you and pidge are both type A personalities, whoa...never would have guessed that one ;-)


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## Lister

Hi folks, I am SG’s W/H and have taken SG’s advice and joined the forum too, although I confess I am nervous. I have read a lot of your posts too and found them moving and enlightening. Many of them are so close to home too in terms of what we are experiencing and this can be incredibly helpful in terms of understanding what we are going through. I guess I have been in denial about much of what I did and the extent of the pain I caused and am causing SG so seeing it articulated by others helps me to understand my own behaviour, painful as this is. 

I first formed a friendship with the OW when we worked together back in 2008 and we kept in contact by e mail and occasional lunches and phone calls. None of this I shared with SG so I knew it was inappropriate but kidded myself that we were just friends and that it was a professional relationship. From July 2009 it crossed the line into an emotional affair with me turning to the OW for support, at a time of upheaval at work, rather than SG. I’m not sure why this happened, why I did this. I try to think back to where I was then and I think I felt like a failure and that I didn’t want SG to know I was a failure. I told her that I was fine rather than telling her the truth, that I was scared and unhappy. I felt the OW understood because she was in the same position as me. I’m not trying to justify what I did, just trying to find reasons. I know too that I had been pushing SG away emotionally for years, even when she tried to talk about our relationship and suggest marriage guidance I refused to participate. I didn’t know how to communicate feelings and still struggle and will avoid it if I can.

When the OW left my company in December 09 I told her how I felt and pursued her telling her I would miss her and the relationship became physical. For the next two years I lived a double life, seeing the OW when I could, barefaced lying as to where I was and what I was doing and denying it when SG asked if I was having an affair. OW wanted me to leave SG but I said no, I developed the capacity to ‘compartmentalise’ my life, and fooled myself into thinking I was doing this well and juggling two relationships. In fact I was being cruel to SG pushing her further away and hurting her terribly. She retreated into herself as a result which made it easier for me to continue the double life and cycle of emotional abuse.

D Day was in April 2012. Safe to say I have not covered myself in glory since then either. From the start I knew I did not want to leave SG. Why? Because she is SG. Sounds trite I know but it is the best way I can describe it. I could not imagine her not being in my life. I had been cruel, selfish, distant and much more but I could not imagine being without her. I told the OW it was over. We kept in touch by phone for a few weeks and I think she thought I would leave. I told her again and again it was over and that we could not communicate again. I understood that this had to happen and actually felt a huge sense of relief that it was over.

Since then I have lied about details of the affair, TT and evasion. Why? I don’t know. I hate what I did and I hate the devastating effect it has had on SG. I don’t want to talk about it, want to focus on the future, change my behaviour of the past making up for what I did. I think the hiding of the A was so deep rooted that even now it is a wrench to tell the truth. Every detail has had to be dragged from me or extracted by confronting me with irrefutable evidence. Exhausting for us both, devastating for SG. I think all the truth is out there now, SG has told me that one more lie will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back and I believe her. Mrs M I think you described it well, for the first time I am forced to see life without her, I can see that she is close to giving up on me. A horrible vision. Her strength over the last 9 months has made me realise just what a wonderful person she is and how much I love her and need her love. 

Sorry for the long post. All advice, help appreciated. I want desperately to R with SG and spend the rest of my life with her. I know, too, how hard this will be for her to believe.


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## B1

Lister,
the best thing you can do for your wife is tell her EVERYTHING, TT will destroy your R, her rebuilding of trust and crush her with every new truth.

one thing that concerns me with your post, is you said "you think" all the truth is out there. Well, either it is or it isn't. It's critical you put it ALL on the table.

Understand too she's hurting, don't get defensive with questions, let her ask and be as open and honest as you can with answers. Don't make her force it out of you. She needs answers...remember she's basically in the dark here, you know all the facts and she is trying to put a puzzle together in the dark, trying to make sense of it all and see the whole picture. But she can't see the whole picture, yet. You can, so its old news to you. To your wife it's all new and she needs your help to see it. Hope I'm making sense here.

basically, cater to here every question, you owe her that much. If it gets too much you can ask for a break, that's OK but overall you need to be honest and open and not make her dig for answers.


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## daisygirl 41

Cpacan: lovely to hear a positive update from you : - )
Hi to SG and Lister ( Red Dwarf reference?) 
SG I'm a BS. My H also had an A with his co worker so was very interested in your input. My H returns to work tomorrow after an 8 month absence. OW is still there so it's going to be tough. H says he loves me with all his heart now and just wants to do everything in his power to make it up to me etc etc..... But I know as long as he works there this is never going to go away! Sigh!
Anyway, what will be will be I suppose and he knows there are absolutely no more chances. My poor beating heart just couldn't take it!
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Hi Lister,I'm glad youre here and I'm not.
I'm a BS,my wife CantSit Still (CSS) post on here also.
Infidelity is the worse pain I have ever had to go through,I'd much rather lose a limb.
The good thing is that a relationship can be repaired and the marriage even better if both are willing to work hard on it.
Its not easy but it can be done.
You'll find some really great people here with sound advice.
Wishing you and SG the best!
Dont be afraid to ask questions or for help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Lister, welcome to TAM. I'm sorry you are here. I am a former WS myself, so I understand much of where you are coming from. Our second and last DDay was in June. My husband posts on here and invited me to forum as well. His name is DevastatedDad (or DD) and his thread is http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/57247-she-cheated-i-hate-my-life.html This forum has been very helpful in opening my eyes to the pain he is going through, as well as given him an outlet when he is too angry to speak face-to-face with me. I too want more than anything to R, and I am working hard to prove my sincerity and remorse to my husband. 

You will learn a lot from this site. If you post outside of the R thread, you will get some flames, but even that can be helpful, in that it can really make you look at yourself to see if there is truth in what the poster is saying. 

Good luck to you both. R is hard, the hardest thing I've done. I feel like it is worth it though, and hopefully one day my husband will agree.


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## margrace

SomedayDig said:


> You two are simply amazing.
> 
> There is nothing else to say.


:iagree:


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## EI

The surgeon just came in and spoke to us. The surgery took 9 1/2 hours. What a long, exhausting day. Something about sitting and waiting...... I'd rather be busy than "waiting" in a hospital waiting room any day of the week. I hope and pray that our son, his name is Joel (we call him Jo-Jo,) has a good recovery. We just got a package in the mail yesterday. He has been approved for an SCL Waiver. He had been on "the list" for a year and a half. It means that he can move into a home, NOT a facility, A HOME, with 2 or 3 other adults with disabilities and round the clock caregivers. He would still get to go to his adult daycare, Mon-Fri, but at the end of the day, he would go to HIS house. He has begged me since high school to put him on "the list." I refused to even consider it. I just don't think you can "pay" someone to love you. Caregiving is hard work...... There really isn't enough money to pay for this kind of work. Why anyone would choose it for any reason other than love is beyond me. But, I've heard that it can take years and years, sometimes 10, 15, even 20 to work your way up the list. So, I put him on it. B1 and I won't live forever and someone will, eventually, have to care for him. I don't want or expect our children to completely sacrifice their lives...... There will be no "tag, you're it." We have asked our children to always make sure that they have a place in their lives and room in their hearts for him. I never want him to miss a holiday or a birthday, or even a "Everybody spends Sunday at Mom and Dad's day."

We have 60 days to decide whether or not we will make this transition, otherwise, we would have to reapply and he would go back to the bottom of the list. How he managed to get to the top of the list this quickly I'll never know. I know people, lots of them, that could have and would have pulled strings for us, but I never asked them to. No one that we know has admitted that any strings were pulled. Usually, you get moved to the top of the list when your caregiver dies, goes into a nursing home or becomes too ill to care for you. 

Every doctor we see, everyone who has been a part of his healthcare says that making the transition as a young adult is much less difficult for individuals with special needs. If he didn't transition as a young adult and waited until he was in his 60's and B1 and I were both gone, the transition would be much harder and we wouldn't be around to make sure that he got the best placement available. His sister got married and moved out, his brother moved out and he thinks it's time for him to move out.

The nice thing about caregivers, I suppose, is that they work in shifts. So, if one of them is sick or tired or wants to take a break, there is another one to replace them. Unlike Moms and Dads...... If we get sick or tired or want to take a break....... you get the picture. He would probably get to do so many more things than he does now. He loves to go to Saturday night church, but I just don't always have the energy to get him ready and on the bus to go. He loves to socialize, he loves lots of things, but there is only so much energy and so much time. This might be a very good thing for him..... and for us. But, call me a sceptic. B1 and I have NOT had a string of good luck in quite some time. 

What do you guys think?

We should be able to see him in the next few minutes. This is going to be hard. Lots of tubes, lots of everything....... I'm tired. I'm so glad that B1 and I are where we are, now, versus this time last year or the year before........ Or, honestly, any of the 10 years before that. I'm so glad I have my husband by my side. He really loves me..... And I really love him!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

I think Jo-Jo living in that kind of environment will be great. Plus it gives you guys a little break.

It is not easy letting go. Especially a child with special needs. But if he is game to try this living environment then you have to be willing to let him go......

I am glad his surgery went well.

And I am happy that you two have each other for support.


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## ChangingMe

First off, EI, I so glad the surgery is done and went well. That has to be a relief! Do you have a bed to sleep in there? I am sure you need some rest. I hope you have more than a chair in the room to sleep on. I will continue to pray for Jo-Jo that he heals quickly and that this surgery does what it was meant to do. 

As for the home for Jo-Jo, honestly, it sounds like an amazing thing for him. You have mentioned to me that his social skills are good, so I imagine that, at 23, he would very much want to have some independence and be among peers, as opposed to still with mom and dad. This will obviously be a HUGE change for you all, but that doesn't mean it's a negative thing. And couldn't this possibly be something that you try out, and if for some reason he doesn't like it or it's not a good fit, he could always come back home? Like you said, you have to plan for the future at some point, and while you have gone above and beyond the call of duty for your child, it sounds like this will afford you the opportunity to share some of the responsibility with others. And that is perfectly ok. He will always be your child, and he knows that. 

I of course am not in your situation, but based on what you've written here, I would say that as long as he is recovered from his surgery by then, then I would try out the home. I know it will be beyond hard to let him go, but it's what we are supposed to do as parents: Raise them and then let them go out into the world. I realize that it's not as simple with a special needs child, but this sounds like a wonderful opportunity for him. And for you and B1 too.


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## calvin

Good stuff EI and B1.
Hardcore prayer for you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Wow what a long day and rough days of recovery ahead for him..boy oh boy. As for that home for him. He wants to go and I know you will be there all the time mothering him anyway. He will still be at family functions. I say let him..as I said you will be visiting mothering him too much. It's time to let him make that choice and let go a bit. Yes it's hard for you but it's not like you are sending him away to never see him. You have a huge heart EI 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

EI,

I was about to go to bed when I read your post. I need to respond before I forget. This is something I can speak of first hand.

I probably told you about my destructive phase after my divorce. When I wanted to turn my life around one of the people who helped me was named Ron. A good friend. He and his sister worked for an agency that ran several homes for mentally challenged adults. He got me a job as a fill in skills counselor. He was responsible for three men who all lived together in an apartment. They all had their own rooms and a communal living room, kitchen and bathroom. In the other apartment his sister cared for two clients a man and a woman who had a similar setup. I filled in on the weekends, overnights and at other times for both of them. The three men were Gary, Dennis and Scott. The other apartment had Wesley and Patricia. Patricia had a bed wetting problem and she like to smoke even though we tried to discourage her. Wesley had his special treasure chest filled with all the mementos from his childhood. He only showed his special stash to people he really liked. Yes I got to see it. In the other apartment Scott couldn't effectively bathe himself because of his problems with OCD and memory. He also had a disabled hand. Gary was not very nice but occasionally if you caught him in the right mood he would snuggle up on the couch with you to watch tv. Dennis had a regurgitation problem and we had to make sure he chewed his food and swallowed correctly. The reason I'm telling you all of this is because I cared for them for exactly one year over 20 years ago and I still remember all that. It made that much of an impression on me and I still consider it to be the greatest job I ever had. The job didn't pay much and the hours were terrible but helping these people was a life changing experience for me and I grew to love them in a very short time. I cried when I left that job in order to pursue a career.

My friend Ron and his sister took care of them until they got older and eventually passed away. Each time a client passed they were not only invited to the funeral but were treated like family. They mourned each of them as if their own son or daughter had passed. They are all gone now and Ron and his sister work in the same hospital together.

The reason I'm telling you this is because people who care for clients do so out of love. You would not believe the loving care and tenderness that my friend and his sister gave to their 2nd families. That is what they considered them. I watched as Ron comforted Dennis when his cat died. I was there when we helped them dress up and go to a fine dining restaurant in order to have the experience for them. I watched them care for them when they were sick with the flu. I myself did that as well. I can't even write how much we all did but it was the most rewarding experience of my life. When I eventually started going out with my wife I introduced her to all of the clients. They loved her so I knew she was a keeper. Wesley even showed her his treasure chest the first time he met her. He never showed anyone his treasure chest right away. I didn't even get to see it until the third time I was there. That clinched it for me as far as she was concerned. She not only got the Wesley seal of approval she was a first time ballot hall of famer.

I'm probably rambling but I just wanted to assure you that people that care for clients like this are amazing people. If I were you I would not have any concerns about placing Jo-Jo in such a loving place. I can speak more about this if you like tomorrow when I'm more awake.


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## EI

bfree said:


> EI,
> 
> I was about to go to bed when I read your post. I need to respond before I forget. This is something I can speak of first hand.
> 
> I probably told you about my destructive phase after my divorce. When I wanted to turn my life around one of the people who helped me was named Ron. A good friend. He and his sister worked for an agency that ran several homes for mentally challenged adults. He got me a job as a fill in skills counselor. He was responsible for three men who all lived together in an apartment. They all had their own rooms and a communal living room, kitchen and bathroom. In the other apartment his sister cared for two clients a man and a woman who had a similar setup. I filled in on the weekends, overnights and at other times for both of them. The three men were Gary, Dennis and Scott. The other apartment had Wesley and Patricia. Patricia had a bed wetting problem and she like to smoke even though we tried to discourage her. Wesley had his special treasure chest filled with all the mementos from his childhood. He only showed his special stash to people he really liked. Yes I got to see it. In the other apartment Scott couldn't effectively bathe himself because of his problems with OCD and memory. He also had a disabled hand. Gary was not very nice but occasionally if you caught him in the right mood he would snuggle up on the couch with you to watch tv. Dennis had a regurgitation problem and we had to make sure he chewed his food and swallowed correctly. The reason I'm telling you all of this is because I cared for them for exactly one year over 20 years ago and I still remember all that. It made that much of an impression on me and I still consider it to be the greatest job I ever had. The job didn't pay much and the hours were terrible but helping these people was a life changing experience for me and I grew to love them in a very short time. I cried when I left that job in order to pursue a career.
> 
> My friend Ron and his sister took care of them until they got older and eventually passed away. Each time a client passed they were not only invited to the funeral but were treated like family. They mourned each of them as if their own son or daughter had passed. They are all gone now and Ron and his sister work in the same hospital together.
> 
> The reason I'm telling you this is because people who care for clients do so out of love. You would not believe the loving care and tenderness that my friend and his sister gave to their 2nd families. That is what they considered them. I watched as Ron comforted Dennis when his cat died. I was there when we helped them dress up and go to a fine dining restaurant in order to have the experience for them. I watched them care for them when they were sick with the flu. I myself did that as well. I can't even write how much we all did but it was the most rewarding experience of my life. When I eventually started going out with my wife I introduced her to all of the clients. They loved her so I knew she was a keeper. Wesley even showed her his treasure chest the first time he met her. He never showed anyone his treasure chest right away. I didn't even get to see it until the third time I was there. That clinched it for me as far as she was concerned. She not only got the Wesley seal of approval she was a first time ballot hall of famer.
> 
> I'm probably rambling but I just wanted to assure you that people that care for clients like this are amazing people. If I were you I would not have any concerns about placing Jo-Jo in such a loving place. I can speak more about this if you like tomorrow when I'm more awake.


Dang it, Bfree, now I'm bawling like a baby. Caregivers like you are what every mother, father or concerned family member wishes for their loved one. Jo-Jo has been very blessed in his life to have had some wonderful teachers, PT's, OT's, doctors, home health aides, etc. But, B1 and I have been right there beside him (my parents before us) making sure that he has the best possible care available. I want him to have a happy, wonderful life. I want him to enjoy as much independence as possible..... I want the same for him that I want for all of my children; happiness, health and success. It's just very hard to define that for him..... for me. This is something that HE has wanted for a long time. I know that it might be the best thing for him..... and maybe even for us.

It's all very scary. Thank you for reminding me that there really are other good, decent, loving people who can love my child and provide good care for him. So, we'll see! Life is changing...... It's scary, but it might really be good!

I wonder if God really didn't abandon me all of those years ago...... and He really did have a plan.... all along. I'm almost excited...... haven't felt that in a long time.

HM64, CM, Calvin, CSS...... Thank you, too! If I haven't said it today...... I love you guys! <3

We still haven't got to see our baby boy........ I don't do waiting very well. :-/

Bfree, thanks for sharing that with me, thanks for doing that job and thanks for sharing your story, like you did, with your special memories about each individual. You remember all of them, years later, and what made them special to you. Everyone should be special to someone. Everyone counts!


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## Rookie4

EI, my Great Grand mother was head nurse at a large Mental hospital in the south. She would bring patients home with her on weekends to stay , so I've been around mentally and emotionally challenged people all of my life, and formed some pretty tight bonds with some of them. So I can relate. If Jo-Jo has good social skills the this type of environment would be very therapeutic for him. I wish him luck and you , too.


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## Decorum

E1 & B1, That good news, I'm praying for your family, and the surgery and recovery.

Calvin, CSS, CM when I read your posts I pray for you as well.

Some how "Lurking" sonds so wrong but I try to keep up on this daily.

Take care!


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## daisygirl 41

EI so glad the surgery is over.
I think you are doing the right thing in considering a care facility for your son. I work in a residential unit for children with special needs and many of our young people move into care facilities when they leave us. Is a huge decision to make but you have to weigh it all up the pros
and cons. Personally I think it's a good idea. I haven't got much time to write now, but I'm sure whatever you decide as a family will be the right choice
DG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

good morning, everyone:

 *B1 and EI,* love to you and joel and the rest of your family. *bfree* said it all best so I will just say, ditto. I worked in a residence like that at one time and i can absolutely confirm all that – those of us who worked there felt honored and uplifted everyday by our residents and their families and each other and our shared commitment to the value and dignity of every person!

*CSS and calvin*, thank you -- you have really become inspirations to me like B1 and EI with your love and wisdom and generous sharing of both the struggles AND the insights! 

*CM,* i think about you and DD so often... you have been so influential and helpful for me. hope all is well!

*Mrs. M*, you helped me this morning with your comments about your “transformation” and how it’s hard for your H to trust that.

i think back now, *EI*, to the fact that it’s been hard for _you _as a WS to trust the changes in B1 as well. All of us have to face up to the risky feelings that are part of going forward in R… at some point, you have to hold hands and jump. Or not. But any of us who are waiting for a crystal ball or a guarantee (and sometimes I think that’s me) will be waiting FOREVER because you don’t get that in life.

*DG*, our stories have had so much in common and i already know that you will stay strong and positive as your H gets back to work. keep us posted!

*SG,* we share so much too! i’m so glad that you joined.

*Lister*, keep doing those hard things  truth is what will save you both and also your marriage. as everyone keeps repeating, dealing with the A is a nightmare but it’s the lying that KILLS us -- and you deserve to release yourself from the lies as well. you deserve the opportunity to be accountable, to call it all out on yourself, the good, the bad, and the ugly. you deserve the opportunity to work and grow and change and become a husband worthy of SG’s trust. and if you step up to that challenge in good faith and love, you ultimately deserve forgiveness from yourself and from SG.

*Dig*, thanks for revisiting the ongoing difficulty that some WSs have with transparency about the R. that really helped me… i’ve corresponded with you before about the fact that my H is like Regret in that way. he has not yet come completely clean with me but is consciously working on that every week with the therapist. in the meantime, i feel that a piece of me is outside the marriage, outside R, unless/until that happens.

there are moments when i would like to call it quits already because of the TT – if you “can’t” tell me everything, is that actually the same as “won’t” tell me? in other words, is it just not important enough? i know that’s not where he’s coming from -- as dig said, i know it’s self-protective. I hang in there because i see lots of other evidence that the changes and the progress are real, so i am daring to hope that this progress will lead to the whole truth, as he tells me that it will. 

at the same time, he and the therapist both understand that i cannot stay married if he tries to keep me in the matrix – do you know what i mean by that? i can’t live in a web of somebody’s lies to me. i can't live with someone who is content to keep me in a web.

*cpacan*, so glad to read about your positive moments! Hoping that we all start stringing more of those together 

and it was wonderful to catch up this morning with the others of you who have so many pearls of wisdom to pass along -- *joe, hm64, rookie, acabado, mr. b., cpacan, tcs redhead, hse, **decorum, NEVERHAPPEN2ME, and the rest!*

keep your fingers crossed for me! xxx mg


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## calvin

Morning peoples 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Hi Lister...I'm gonna admit that it will be a tad difficult for me to type this without triggering on my own, but that's my bag to carry.

First, thanks for coming here to read AND share. I can only tell you from what I've experienced as a BS is much like what SG is going through. See, my wife had a 5 year affair. I had absolutely no idea it was going on for a few reasons. First, I was a corporate pilot so I was flying all over the US, the Caribbean and Central America. It was not uncommon for me to be gone for 2 week stretches. Now, that is NOT the reason she had her affair, however it sure helped her conceal it for a long time. Second, she was very good at compartmentalizing things. Sound familiar? 

The story goes that after I walked away from the flying job for what I thought was a noble reason...I wanted to be home with my family more than collect a big paycheck...it only took me 5 months to discover the affair. That's right. For 5 years her affair went on, but as soon as I was home 24/7, I was able to uncover it within those few months. That was pretty eye opening.

What happened next, is what hurt the most. You can read what I wrote to SG, but I'd rather say it directly to you. Any...ANY form of trickle truth creates a death by a thousand cuts. You are literally killing SG's love, not to mention her soul. Every single time my wife, Regret214, "came clean" again ~ well, it hurt so much that I was taken back to March 6, 2012. Our Dday.

I wrote a thread last summer, and it's one I think every WS should read. I think it was titled "Archeologist of Truth". It basically was my feeling of being a BS and having to search for the truth. I imagined standing there with a shovel...digging and digging, while Regret stood by and watched. Every time the shovel would clink on a new rock (truth), she would say, "Oh, yeah, now I remember that". It got to the point where I was standing in a very deep hole, covered with dirt and sweating. Meanwhile, Regret is standing at the top of the hole I was in...nice and clean...looking down at me toiling away.

Get down in that f'ng hole and dig Lister. This isn't SG's job to figure out the details of your affair. It's YOUR job to do so. Don't allow her to get any dirtier than she already has. She doesn't deserve it. Your marriage...your relationship...your FUTURE doesn't deserve it.

So many times, we betrayed ones, sit on a couch. Alone with our thoughts. And some of those times it can be daunting. All we have ever asked for...all we have ever wanted was something so very simple: the Truth.

Don't pretend. Don't evade. There is nothing more that can hurt SG than you have already done by having the affair. If you're holding the most minute bit of truth back, in the end, you are only hurting yourself. 

For SG, I will say this, on the days when the clouds are dark and the rain falls from the sky and lightning flashes all around, take comfort in one thing...that above all of those clouds, rain and lightning the sun is shining brightly. You just can't see it.

BUT...that doesn't mean it's not still there.


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## SomedayDig

Oh...and good morning Cal.


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## calvin

Hey Dig.
Answering all the BS's questions honestly is very important,after I busted up CSS's A that is one thing I did'nt have to put up with too much,she did'nt TT me a whole lot at all.
I dont think I would have been able to R if I did'nt get all the answers quickly and honestly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Lister,

Heed Dig and calvin's advice. The affair is the stab to the gut but its the trickle truth bleeding out that kills the love and the marriage.


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## Lister

B1 said:


> Lister,
> the best thing you can do for your wife is tell her EVERYTHING, TT will destroy your R, her rebuilding of trust and crush her with every new truth.
> 
> one thing that concerns me with your post, is you said "you think" all the truth is out there. Well, either it is or it isn't. It's critical you put it ALL on the table.
> 
> Understand too she's hurting, don't get defensive with questions, let her ask and be as open and honest as you can with answers. Don't make her force it out of you. She needs answers...remember she's basically in the dark here, you know all the facts and she is trying to put a puzzle together in the dark, trying to make sense of it all and see the whole picture. But she can't see the whole picture, yet. You can, so its old news to you. To your wife it's all new and she needs your help to see it. Hope I'm making sense here.
> 
> basically, cater to here every question, you owe her that much. If it gets too much you can ask for a break, that's OK but overall you need to be honest and open and not make her dig for answers.


Thanks B1, appreciate the advice, made total sense. Fair point about 'I Think'. I used that term because i am a little concerned that there is something that i havn't told her, that might come up and that it might seem that i have been deceitful. However I have racked my brains and cannot think of anything. I get it now that however painful i think it will be for SG or me I have to tell the truth and face the consequences.


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## Lister

daisygirl 41 said:


> Cpacan: lovely to hear a positive update from you : - )
> Hi to SG and Lister ( Red Dwarf reference?)
> SG I'm a BS. My H also had an A with his co worker so was very interested in your input. My H returns to work tomorrow after an 8 month absence. OW is still there so it's going to be tough. H says he loves me with all his heart now and just wants to do everything in his power to make it up to me etc etc..... But I know as long as he works there this is never going to go away! Sigh!
> Anyway, what will be will be I suppose and he knows there are absolutely no more chances. My poor beating heart just couldn't take it!
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi Daisygirl,

Yes is a Red Dwarf reference. SG and me are both big fans and have watched it for relief quite a lot recently so the name sprung into my head when registering.

I feel for you having to go through the experience of your H returning to work. Only you know the strength of where you are now. In my case the OW left the organisation i work for so SG doesn't have to suffer the thought that i will be in daily contact. I would imagine that if we were still in the same workplace no amount of heartfelt reassurances from me would convince SG that we wouldn't start the A again.

As it is the OW has contacted me several times by text and e mail and I have been able to tell SG and share the responses with her (although these havn't always been agreed upon and have caused tension between us which was quite possibly the OW's intention i suspect). The OW has also signed up for an event at which i was supposed to speak, i have cancelled my attendance. 

I have often wondered how i would respond if i met the OW again face to face (I have had no physical contact since D Day). I know it would be a horrible experience as she appears still not to accept that the A is over and I am commtted to R with SG. However I have no doubt that I do not wish to, and cannot have anything more to do with her and I would re-affirm this to her as brutally as necessary (although i am aware i have a natural aversion to conflict). If your H is comitted to R then he may be able to do this with the OW.

good luck.


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## Lister

ChangingMe said:


> Lister, welcome to TAM. I'm sorry you are here. I am a former WS myself, so I understand much of where you are coming from. Our second and last DDay was in June. My husband posts on here and invited me to forum as well. His name is DevastatedDad (or DD) and his thread is http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/57247-she-cheated-i-hate-my-life.html This forum has been very helpful in opening my eyes to the pain he is going through, as well as given him an outlet when he is too angry to speak face-to-face with me. I too want more than anything to R, and I am working hard to prove my sincerity and remorse to my husband.
> 
> You will learn a lot from this site. If you post outside of the R thread, you will get some flames, but even that can be helpful, in that it can really make you look at yourself to see if there is truth in what the poster is saying.
> 
> Good luck to you both. R is hard, the hardest thing I've done. I feel like it is worth it though, and hopefully one day my husband will agree.


Thank you ChangingMe. Not afraid of getting a hard time, cannot be worse than seeing the effects of what i did on SG and on my family. Telling the kids what i had done and seeing their reaction would dwarf anything a poster could do. I think i do need a good dose of 'kick up the backside' treatment and maybe this will help give it to me.


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## StarGazer101

daisygirl 41 said:


> Cpacan: lovely to hear a positive update from you : - )
> Hi to SG and Lister ( Red Dwarf reference?)
> SG I'm a BS. My H also had an A with his co worker so was very interested in your input. My H returns to work tomorrow after an 8 month absence. OW is still there so it's going to be tough. H says he loves me with all his heart now and just wants to do everything in his power to make it up to me etc etc..... But I know as long as he works there this is never going to go away! Sigh!
> Anyway, what will be will be I suppose and he knows there are absolutely no more chances. My poor beating heart just couldn't take it!
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG My heart goes out to you - I think that there must always be a concern under these conditions ... every time H left the house for months I was terrified that he was going to her. (_His job allows him a great deal of flexibility and he can work from home so much of the affair was conducted at her flat when he was supposed to be working)_. I have had to put blind trust in him not to... not at all easy, but over time it has gotten easier and now I can say that I do believe he doesn't, and I only have the briefest of pangs now and again.

Lots and lots of _loving_ before he goes to work and when he comes home might help,  and if he can bombard you with texts to show he's thinking of you during the day that's all to the good!

In the end we have to believe that we are giving our trust to someone who has _learned_ to value it and they have an absolute duty to treasure and protect every single ounce of it that we give. When we see that they do, then maybe we can take that huge leap ..... for now lots of little hops are still moving us forward.


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## B1

Thanks to everyone who posted in regards to caring for special needs kids and adults that really helped us immensely. I can't thank you all enough for sharing your stories.
BTW it's amazing how many of you have dealt with special needs people.
wow...just wow. 

He had the ventilator taken out this morning and is talking away now. So he's doing very well. Still in ICU for another day or two.


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## bfree

B1 said:


> Thanks to everyone who posted in regards to caring for special needs kids and adults that really helped us immensely. I can't thank you all enough for sharing your stories.
> BTW it's amazing how many of you have dealt with special needs people.
> wow...just wow.
> 
> He had the ventilator taken out this morning and is talking away now. So he's doing very well. Still in ICU for another day or two.


If you or EI have any questions I would be happy to answer as best I can. Like if you would like to hear what a typical weekday or weekend day is like or what activities we did with the clients I can share that. I'm so happy that the ventilator is out now. Still sending prayers your way.


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## StarGazer101

SomedayDig said:


> I imagined standing there with a shovel...digging and digging, while Regret stood by and watched. Every time the shovel would clink on a new rock (truth), she would say, "Oh, yeah, now I remember that". It got to the point where I was standing in a very deep hole, covered with dirt and sweating. Meanwhile, Regret is standing at the top of the hole I was in...nice and clean...looking down at me toiling away.


Dig that resonates with me so much it is painful! I still cannot understand how someone can look at you knowing what they've done to you and continue to put you through pain whilst telling you they love you and want to help you to heal..... and they KNOW that there's going to be more to come.

Lister has often said to me he didn't want to hurt me any further and he finds it difficult to face what he has done. 

I say that he wanted to protect himself - there's no compassion in TT, and he has left me to face every last bit of what he's done so the least he can do is follow suit!

At the end of the day I now feel I know as much about the A as I want to (believe me there's a LOT I haven't asked) but what it has done is make me think what's my future going to be like with someone who won't own what they did and the choices they made or show any genuine compassion for someone they profess to love? I want and I *deserve* a H I can love, respect and depend on .... I see none of that emerging from what has gone before and I am very wary now. As much as I want to think we can live happily ever after I believe that only truth can set the foundations and I'm settling for nothing less.

P.S I was away from home 3 days a week working thinking my sacrifice of being on my own during that time was worth it for the family. When people commented on being away so much I had no worries because my H was "special". Yup I was in a 23 year long fog!


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## old timer

WS and BS here.

As a WS, I TT'd my W over a 3 week period. I rationalized that it was because I didn't want to hurt her any more than necessary, but if I'm really honest, it was just as much to protect myself. And it really, seriously did affect our attempt at R.

As a BS, although I cared not for the gory details, my W has been forthcoming w/ info (she seems to enjoy the pain it causes me - sadist, possibly? lol) She insists it has been strictly an EA on their first 3 meetups (spent in hotel rooms together - IKR :rofl, but made sure to tell me this would change on their latest meetup this past week. Quite honestly, it didn't matter to me whether it was EA or PA, I was willing to forgive. Let he w/o sin cast the first stone, you know?

She had justified her A because I had checked out of the marriage 5 years ago (which is true), and it became easier for her to "just not care" anymore, and she found "someone who would listen". That was completely understandable to me, actually.

I had been determined on R since Oct 2012, but she gave me a crash course in "not caring" over the last few weeks, and now I really don't much give a damn, unfortunately. If she wants to R, I'll still consider it, but my heart is def not in it to the degree it was just a month ago.

"Hurt" is one thing - "Intentional Hurt" is quite another thing. 
She can be a mean-spirited b!tch.

EDIT: Sorry to throw water on the reconciliation theme


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## Mrs_Mathias

B1 and EI - so glad your son came through his surgery well. IMO, the group home sounds like a really wonderful opportunity for him! I know the transition will be difficult, but it will be easier to make now with your love and support than it will be in the future on his own. And the stories shared by bfree absolutely moved me to tears as well.

Lister - I am a WS who lied and lied and lied until my husband had proof and backed me into a corner. For me, it was like I couldn't tell the truth until I felt like all had been lost in my relationship, and there was nothing left that I was trying to "protect" or "save". DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKES. The lying is far, far worse for my husband to deal with than the actual affair. He feels that he gave me so many opportunities to just TALK to him, and we could have worked through it. But I was afraid, I was in such a habit of lying, that I couldn't break that, even when he'd ask a question I KNEW he already knew the answer to. The lies kept coming out of my mouth before I could even think of answering. It was so horrible. I have dug an incredibly deep pit to attempt to build a relationship from. Please, even if all your "instincts" tell you otherwise, just sit her down without her requesting it and talk her through EVERYTHING. Every single possible detail - conversations, places, appearances, thoughts, anything you can possibly regurgitate.

As for us, things are up and down as one could expect. Matt struggled with a lot of anger Monday and Tuesday, but today has been better so far. We are having a snow day here, so I've enjoyed being lazy and just hanging out with Matt and our son.  Matt has asked me if he can help me move my belongings from the guest room back into our room, which is a huge thing. Honestly, I'm a little scared to do it. There's been some changes for us lately that have significantly impacted our choices regarding R or D, and I am afraid to really hope that R is a possibility, even though I desperately want that.

He asked last night what he had to do to make me feel I was no longer in limbo, and I don't know. Basically, he summed it up this way, "So there's nothing I can do to make you not feel in limbo, and nothing you can do to make me feel like taking another chance on you." I said that if I could figure out how to make the second part not true, then the first part would likely no longer be true. So, I'll just keep working on that second part and hopefully the first will fall into place for us.


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## calvin

Some good signs Mrs.M,I hope it keeps moving in the right direction for you and your husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> He asked last night what he had to do to make me feel I was no longer in limbo, and I don't know. Basically, he summed it up this way, "So there's nothing I can do to make you not feel in limbo, and nothing you can do to make me feel like taking another chance on you." I said that if I could figure out how to make the second part not true, then the first part would likely no longer be true. So, I'll just keep working on that second part and hopefully the first will fall into place for us.


WOW! Count your lucky stars. Please don't waste this opportunity. It's truly a gift.
Mrs. No shortcuts anywhere. First self work. Then complete, radical honesty, emotional transparence, humility, patience...
Then compensation, invest every spare piece of energy into the marriage. Start creating new memories.
And f0ck him like a mad woman if you pardon my french.


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## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> B1 and EI - so glad your son came through his surgery well. IMO, the group home sounds like a really wonderful opportunity for him! I know the transition will be difficult, but it will be easier to make now with your love and support than it will be in the future on his own. And the stories shared by bfree absolutely moved me to tears as well.
> 
> Lister - I am a WS who lied and lied and lied until my husband had proof and backed me into a corner. For me, it was like I couldn't tell the truth until I felt like all had been lost in my relationship, and there was nothing left that I was trying to "protect" or "save". DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKES. The lying is far, far worse for my husband to deal with than the actual affair. He feels that he gave me so many opportunities to just TALK to him, and we could have worked through it. But I was afraid, I was in such a habit of lying, that I couldn't break that, even when he'd ask a question I KNEW he already knew the answer to. The lies kept coming out of my mouth before I could even think of answering. It was so horrible. I have dug an incredibly deep pit to attempt to build a relationship from. Please, even if all your "instincts" tell you otherwise, just sit her down without her requesting it and talk her through EVERYTHING. Every single possible detail - conversations, places, appearances, thoughts, anything you can possibly regurgitate.
> 
> As for us, things are up and down as one could expect. Matt struggled with a lot of anger Monday and Tuesday, but today has been better so far. We are having a snow day here, so I've enjoyed being lazy and just hanging out with Matt and our son.  Matt has asked me if he can help me move my belongings from the guest room back into our room, which is a huge thing. Honestly, I'm a little scared to do it. There's been some changes for us lately that have significantly impacted our choices regarding R or D, and I am afraid to really hope that R is a possibility, even though I desperately want that.
> 
> He asked last night what he had to do to make me feel I was no longer in limbo, and I don't know. *Basically, he summed it up this way, "So there's nothing I can do to make you not feel in limbo, and nothing you can do to make me feel like taking another chance on you." *I said that if I could figure out how to make the second part not true, then the first part would likely no longer be true. So, I'll just keep working on that second part and hopefully the first will fall into place for us.


And this is exactly how couples that could R end up splitting. One spouse has to take the first step. You don't want to get your hopes up too much and that is completely understandable and as long as Matt isn't committed you will probably continue to feel this way. Maybe even for a while if R is his choice. You're going to continue to think "is this real, are we really reconciling?" Matt of course is currently unwilling to commit to R because he doesn't trust you. That's also understandable considering all that has happened. What has to happen is one of you has to blink. For your part you have been working hard to strengthen your boundaries and become a better woman. You have been showing Matt your love and commitment and judging by the move back to the bedroom I would say he is starting to believe your remorse. My advice is to continue to do what you are doing and I think the question if who will make the first move will be moot. In fact, Matt may have just made it. I'm praying for you both.


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## daisygirl 41

Morning everyone. The sun is actually shining here in the UK. The first time in what seems like weeks.

B1 and EI, continued prayers and thoughts for you and your family. Hope Joel is having a successful recovery.

Mrs M, Baby steps, that's what it takes and it looks like things are slowly moving in the right direction for you. There are always things you can do to help Hs recovery. Just hugging him and asking how he's doing will always help. Ask him if there's anything you can do to help him and just generally be there for him. I wish you well.

I just wanted to address the TT phenomenon!'i totally agree with what Dig and others have said here. The lies hurt as much as the A did.
I only found out my H was continuing his A with the OW after we had one failed R attempt and he had moved out, the OWs H contacted me to tell me. I knew deep down that H was lying to me but he denied denied denied. If there were gold stars for lying, he'd win them all! Now this is why I'm having such a hard time now. Not so much the A but trusting there no more lies. WSs here your posts are really helping me to understand Hs mindset during the A and his reasoning of 'I didn't want to tell you about OW because I didn't want to hurt you, and i was afraid of losing you'!!!

Had an anxious day yesterday with his return to work. It's doing wonders for my waistline, but not so much my heart and head. She was here yesterday. He acknowledged that she said good morning and that was it, well at least he told me, he could've hidden in. I felt like a clingy child last night. I made tea and stuck to him like glue all night. I just needed to be close to him. Luckily one of Hs love languages is physical touch so he was quite happy to be smothered!!

We talked and I told him as long as he is working there with her we will never move on from this, and he agreed. I don't care if he has to take a lower paid job, the plan is for him to get away from there!
SG- axing the similarities. I also work away from home 3 nights a week mon- fri! I go to work on mossy and don't see H until Wed. It's always been tough but we've just got on with it. Like you, I thought I was doing my bit, thought my H was special, thought this would never happen to us! 

Just as a side note. I'm going into hospital on Monday. I have pre cancerous cell that need to be removed. Been seeing the doc for nearly 2 years about it but he's decided now I need treatment. I'm feeling ok about it. Good old NHS has taken good care of me! Only one problem, not allowed any 'sexy time' for a month!!! That's going to be a challenge! Lol! Might be a bit busy this weekend!

Love and peace
DG
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

*DG,* 
I wish, as you do I'm sure, that she would have said nothing to him at work. Her saying good morning is a crock, it's fishing and not good.

I know I said to keep NC, but if she continues the fishing I think I would tell her husband. And hopefully your hubby is NOT responding, perhaps that will be enough to stop her? 

So sorry for this pressure DG.

Prayers your way on your upcoming surgery. please keep us posted.


*Mrs M.,*
Moving back to the bedroom is HUGE in my book. That's a step in the right direction. I know when I wanted EI back in the bedroom it meant I wanted to R. Even though our circumstances were a bit different, the meaning was the same, I wanted my wife back.

*OT,*
Sorry your going through hell right now. I hope your little vaca was nice.

As a matter of fact sorry there are so many going through hell right now. As my quote at the bottom says, If your going through hell, keep going. Just keep moving forward, don't stop, don't give up.

*Lister,*
I just have to say, as many WS are thinking it but not saying it. You will get off very easy in this thread. Most WS paid some heavy dues before coming here. If you want to see what I am talking about, see EI's original thread HERE 
This will also give you insight as to how bad things were with me and EI. I can't personally read it anymore, I trigger to bad from it.


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## calvin

Praying for your son B1,you to Daisy,hope everything turns out well.
As for the fishing,yep.My POS tried that three times til Iwent after him.
Even trie to intimidate me quite s few times by saying he was on his way to rape my wife.
I'm glad I ruined what little pathetic life he had
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

B1 said:


> *DG,*
> I wish, as you do I'm sure, that she would have said nothing to him at work. Her saying good morning is a crock, it's fishing and not good.
> 
> I know I said to keep NC, but if she continues the fishing I think I would tell her husband. And hopefully your hubby is NOT responding, perhaps that will be enough to stop her?
> 
> So sorry for this pressure DG.
> 
> Prayers your way on your upcoming surgery. please keep us posted.
> 
> 
> *Mrs M.,*
> Moving back to the bedroom is HUGE in my book. That's a step in the right direction. I know when I wanted EI back in the bedroom it meant I wanted to R. Even though our circumstances were a bit different, the meaning was the same, I wanted my wife back.
> 
> *OT,*
> Sorry your going through hell right now. I hope your little vaca was nice.
> 
> As a matter of fact sorry there are so many going through hell right now. As my quote at the bottom says, If your going through hell, keep going. Just keep moving forward, don't stop, don't give up.
> 
> *Lister,*
> I just have to say, as many WS are thinking it but not saying it. You will get off very easy in this thread. Most WS paid some heavy dues before coming here. If you want to see what I am talking about, see EI's original thread HERE
> This will also give you insight as to how bad things were with me and EI. I can't personally read it anymore, I trigger to bad from it.


It is huge. I am so grateful for the opportunity to spend more time as a couple with Matt, and that he has invited me to share a room with him again. I didn't mean to sound negative at all in my previous post. I was just trying to communicate that even with Matt's offer, limbo is my own state of mind because I want to see signs of healing from him. I want to know that I CAN be there with him and we can be happy together after all the pain I caused. There is nothing he can do or say to reassure my mind - I am the one who needs to keep working on us and him and me to become more comfortable with the hope of rebuilding our relationship, if that makes any sense.

Thinking of you all on this frigid Thursday in the midwest. I hope things are going well, one day at a time.


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## daisygirl 41

B1 and Calvin. I understand what you are saying and will do exactly as you have suggested if it carries on. The trouble is they work in a very small school so it is impossible for them to avoid each other completely. H is part of senior management and as part of that role he has to have some dealings with the other teachers. This is why it'll be best if he finds another job. On the plus side, I have my spies there and our schools are soon merging. There's a chance H can get a transfer to work in the same school as me so that'll be good. In the mean time I'm being vigilant!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mike11

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It is huge. I am so grateful for the opportunity to spend more time as a couple with Matt, and that he has invited me to share a room with him again. I didn't mean to sound negative at all in my previous post. I was just trying to communicate that even with Matt's offer, limbo is my own state of mind because I want to see signs of healing from him. I want to know that I CAN be there with him and we can be happy together after all the pain I caused. There is nothing he can do or say to reassure my mind - I am the one who needs to keep working on us and him and me to become more comfortable with the hope of rebuilding our relationship, if that makes any sense.
> 
> Thinking of you all on this frigid Thursday in the midwest. I hope things are going well, one day at a time.


Mrs M I hope you communicated that to him when he asked that, if not Please do so ASAP, he is re evaluating and leaning towards giving you a chance, you need to give him something to work with here, Please remember that communications is the Key here and not implied thinking or hopes that he will understand what you mean or think, I am hopeful that, this will continue and both of you will recover I am keeping my fingers crossed here for both of you


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## CantSitStill

Yeah what's important is that he completely ignores the "goodmornings" and he tells you every time she says anything to him until he or she transfers. I bet you wanna slap the bltch
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Mrs M. I found that what really helped Calvin and me is we were told by people on TAm to spend 15 min a day alone talking. We spent at least an hour doing that every day and we still talk alot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> B1 and Calvin. I understand what you are saying and will do exactly as you have suggested if it carries on. The trouble is they work in a very small school so it is impossible for them to avoid each other completely. H is part of senior management and as part of that role he has to have some dealings with the other teachers. This is why it'll be best if he finds another job. On the plus side, I have my spies there and our schools are soon merging. There's a chance H can get a transfer to work in the same school as me so that'll be good. In the mean time I'm being vigilant!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course there is the alternative. You might be able to get a transfer to his school and haunt the OW so bad that she leaves. I think the naughty boy in me just came out for a peek. :FIREdevil:


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## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> B1 and Calvin. I understand what you are saying and will do exactly as you have suggested if it carries on. The trouble is they work in a very small school so it is impossible for them to avoid each other completely. H is part of senior management and as part of that role he has to have some dealings with the other teachers. This is why it'll be best if he finds another job. On the plus side, I have my spies there and our schools are soon merging. There's a chance H can get a transfer to work in the same school as me so that'll be good. In the mean time I'm being vigilant!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah Daisy,early in our R we hired some women to work on the mills,only a couple made it,the rest just cant handle the work,no offense but it requires some heavy lifting.
The girl I got teamed up with was pretty and had to get a job,she caught her H cheating on him for the second time,I wond up telling her my story.
She thought that since we were both BS we should get together.
I found myself being sympathetic twords her.
That was a big no-no.
I was firm and she fished for me quite a few times.
I hate tosay I thought about it but thank God I could'nt hurt CSS,just hope your H is careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I love that you were honest with me about that whole ordeal Calvin 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I dont want anyone but you,never have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I don't want anyone but you either, ever ever and I mean that. We can get through anything, love you so much  ok now no more getting mushy on the threads lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

You guys get as mushy as much and as often as you want. I think its beautiful.


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## calvin

It was a extremely hard R with her picking him the night I kicked her out.
The scumbag calling for months and months almost derailed things.
I took jh52's advice..one hour,one day at a time.
Seemed like it took forever but we are in a good place now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

daisygirl 41 said:


> Morning everyone. The sun is actually shining here in the UK. The first time in what seems like weeks.
> 
> B1 and EI, continued prayers and thoughts for you and your family. Hope Joel is having a successful recovery.
> 
> Mrs M, Baby steps, that's what it takes and it looks like things are slowly moving in the right direction for you. There are always things you can do to help Hs recovery. Just hugging him and asking how he's doing will always help. Ask him if there's anything you can do to help him and just generally be there for him. I wish you well.
> 
> I just wanted to address the TT phenomenon!'i totally agree with what Dig and others have said here. The lies hurt as much as the A did.
> I only found out my H was continuing his A with the OW after we had one failed R attempt and he had moved out, the OWs H contacted me to tell me. I knew deep down that H was lying to me but he denied denied denied. If there were gold stars for lying, he'd win them all! Now this is why I'm having such a hard time now. Not so much the A but trusting there no more lies. WSs here your posts are really helping me to understand Hs mindset during the A and his reasoning of 'I didn't want to tell you about OW because I didn't want to hurt you, and i was afraid of losing you'!!!
> 
> Had an anxious day yesterday with his return to work. It's doing wonders for my waistline, but not so much my heart and head. She was here yesterday. He acknowledged that she said good morning and that was it, well at least he told me, he could've hidden in. I felt like a clingy child last night. I made tea and stuck to him like glue all night. I just needed to be close to him. Luckily one of Hs love languages is physical touch so he was quite happy to be smothered!!
> 
> We talked and I told him as long as he is working there with her we will never move on from this, and he agreed. I don't care if he has to take a lower paid job, the plan is for him to get away from there!
> SG- axing the similarities. I also work away from home 3 nights a week mon- fri! I go to work on mossy and don't see H until Wed. It's always been tough but we've just got on with it. Like you, I thought I was doing my bit, thought my H was special, thought this would never happen to us!
> 
> Just as a side note. I'm going into hospital on Monday. I have pre cancerous cell that need to be removed. Been seeing the doc for nearly 2 years about it but he's decided now I need treatment. I'm feeling ok about it. Good old NHS has taken good care of me! Only one problem, not allowed any 'sexy time' for a month!!! That's going to be a challenge! Lol! Might be a bit busy this weekend!
> 
> Love and peace
> DG
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG, fishing by the AP is unfortunately a very common occurance. Especially if the AP has feelings for the WS. It was like that with Sweetie. After she ended the A, her AP was constantly trying to get her back. Offering to marry her, etc. Plus they worked in the same hospital, so he was attempting to engage her in conversation, all of the time. What your husband needs to do is be pro-active like Sweetie. She filed a harassment complaint against him, went to the administrator and explained the whole affair to her, and said that she would quit and sue, if something was not done to stop him. Looking back on it, this was the first proof she gave that she was committed to R.


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## B1

Rookie4 said:


> DG, fishing by the AP is unfortunately a very common occurance. Especially if the AP has feelings for the WS. It was like that with Sweetie. After she ended the A, her AP was constantly trying to get her back. Offering to marry her, etc. Plus they worked in the same hospital, so he was attempting to engage her in conversation, all of the time. What your husband needs to do is be pro-active like Sweetie. She filed a harassment complaint against him, went to the administrator and explained the whole affair to her, and said that she would quit and sue, if something was not done to stop him. Looking back on it, this was the first proof she gave that she was committed to R.


That was definitely solid proof she was trying Rookie, WOW!


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## bfree

calvin said:


> It was a extremely hard R with her picking him the night I kicked her out.
> The scumbag calling for months and months almost derailed things.
> I took jh52's advice..one hour,one day at a time.
> Seemed like it took forever but we are in a good place now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did CSS go to him the night you kicked her out? I thought she went to her sister's.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Did CSS go to him the night you kicked her out? I thought she went to her sister's.


No bfree,she went to her sisters,she did talk to him,he wanted to see her she said no.
After that he wouldnt return her calls.
If she would have agreed to see him I shutter at what might have happend,He would have tried something,they were never physical in hs or the four months she saw/talked to him.
If she would ha ve so much as Frenched kissed him I couldnt R
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> No bfree,she went to her sisters,she did talk to him,he wanted to see her she said no.
> After that he wouldnt return her calls.
> If she would have agreed to see him I shutter at what might have happend,He would have tried something,they were never physical in hs or the four months she saw/talked to him.
> If she would ha ve so much as Frenched kissed him I couldnt R
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did read your threads from a long time ago so I may not be understanding everything but let me put this out there and see what you and maybe more importantly CSS feels about it. The night you kicked her out...I don't think she chose him at all. I think that in her (at the time) warped mind (sorry CSS) she was rebelling against you. If she had actually chosen him she would have gone to him that night. It may just be a subtle difference but if I were in your shoes it would be an important difference to me. I've never been in the position of the WS so maybe I have it wrong but it seems to me that you were the one that was crushing her fantasy. Therefore you were the enemy at that time. And frankly it seems that is always the case since the WS always gets angry and blows up at the BS when the affair is exposed. So CSS didn't pick him over you. She rebelled against you for destroying her fantasy and interrupting her drug supply. At least that is how I see things.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> I did read your threads from a long time ago so I may not be understanding everything but let me put this out there and see what you and maybe more importantly CSS feels about it. The night you kicked her out...I don't think she chose him at all. I think that in her (at the time) warped mind (sorry CSS) she was rebelling against you. If she had actually chosen him she would have gone to him that night. It may just be a subtle difference but if I were in your shoes it would be an important difference to me. I've never been in the position of the WS so maybe I have it wrong but it seems to me that you were the one that was crushing her fantasy. Therefore you were the enemy at that time. And frankly it seems that is always the case since the WS always gets angry and blows up at the BS when the affair is exposed. So CSS didn't pick him over you. She rebelled against you for destroying her fantasy and interrupting her drug supply. At least that is how I see things.


Well bfree,that was our last night with a terrible MC,our first one,anyway we went out to eat,she drank mostly and said we should start dating other people,not have sex but date,her words.
Once we pulled into my garage I finally got it out of her.
I told her if we were to have a shot at R she must stop talking to him,she refused and kept saying she wanted to date him.
So I kicked her out.
The next day I was a wreck,she was supposed to pick up her things but after two hours at work I almost killed some people by accdent.
I came home and texted her,telling her we could work on this if she dropped him,she said again she wanted him.I gave her many chances to change her mind,she said yes I want him.
When she came with her sister to pick up clothes I asked if she planned on moving in with him,she yelled at me yes she was and that he treated her better than me.
I dont know how she would have liked living in a house with a bunch of 40 year old losers who still had trouble paying rent.
So to me,that night she chose him over me and our
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

our kids.
I only fb it when she told me this is sure it was what she wanted.
I asked her what about the kids,she said all that mattered was her happiness.
Rebelled,maybe to a point but she always had something for this loser,now he makes her sick.
I dont know maybe CSS can explain it better than me.
Either way it sure seemed like she picked a loser over me.
It wouldnt have lasted,she admits to thinking about moving in with him but the guys is such a d!ck,it wouldnt have lasted a couple weeks.
Then for sure it would have been to late for me.
Her lawyer even told her she had no chance of getting the house or custody,I could of had it ALL.
But I wouldnt have anything without her in my life.
I would have moved on but there would always be something missing.
I had to protect her from that low life nd herself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Css was still in kinda like a fog after I let her come back,telling me that"well maybe he is a nice guy" everyting he said to her and I mean everything she believed.
I had to go out of my way to dig crap up on him and show her how bad he was,many of his friends deserted him,I exposed all around,her sister included who os a good girl,the other sister not so much.
I exposed him to the people he knew and thats when the calls started,he said things like I like to watch two men have sex with her,I had her strung out on drugs and much worse things.
CSS realised he never gave a sh!t about her.
What if I would of beat her ass?He didnt care.
For the record,my Dad beat my Mom and it made me sick,I was five and jumping on my Dads back to defend my Mom.
I have never hit a women,"men" who do that make me sick.I have beat up some of my sisters husbands and boyfriends who got violent.
I'm the youngest and only boy out os six kids,I hate that crap.I hit back.
Oh well I dont know man,sometimes my brain is mush anymore.
I am responsible for 50% of the marriage going off the rails,I wish I would have done things differently.
Off to counseling.....ugh,dont feel like it but I know we need to.
Thanks for listening to my ranting and raving.
Io love my wife,we WILL be better than good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I did spew alot of crap that wasn't even true to Calvin because of the way he was acting when I came home to get my stuff..I just agreed with Calvin to piss him off. I was angry because of the things said in front of the kids, I was on no sleep at all but had no plan on living with the ex om. When the ex om asked me to meet up I told him nicely "no, I need to clear my head and that my leaving Calvin had nothing to do with him" The POSOM ignored me and my texts and calls after that conversation. That conveesation was the day after I left. I told him the night I left that it had nothing to do with him also. Time to go to MC
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

She did say she thought about living with him in the future,she did.
The best thing for me right now is no triggers,I'm getting to the point where I dont car
What could have been didnt happend.I can talk about it without freaking out now.
I really think the one year mark was a huge mind sandbag for me.
If a year later we are together,I see no reason why we cant always be.
Mc time!!,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Waiting on our MC,its nice that she is so close to our house.
One weird thing is the place we like to go for supper and drinks it the same resturant where CSS said she wanted to date other people,we always sit at the same table but I NEVER trigger there.
Me and a close friend go there when he is in town and we sit at the same table also.
Some good memories there and some horrible ones as well.
I dont get why I never trigger there at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

First calvin, rant away my friend. The only way to purge things is to let them go. I've read a lot of threads on TAM involving a lot of affairs. In almost every one of them when the WS leaves and chooses the AP they go right to them either for the immediate comfort or to try to begin a life together. That didn't happen here. CSS did in fact refuse to stop communicating with him but honestly that's not really that unusual. But when you kicked her out calvin she blew him off instead of going to him. That IS unusual and makes me think that even though her thought process was obviously confused she knew on some level that she did love you and that what the POSOM represented wasn't real. I realize that the things she said were hurtful on many levels but her actions really tell a different story. I'm sorry if I'm dredging up things best left buried but lately I've been trying to understand the viewpoint and thought process of the WS. Maybe I'm still trying to understand what my ex was thinking all those years ago. Who knows why my mind comes up with half the things it does.


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## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> What could have been didnt happend.


This to me is so important. There are a lot of "could haves" but no one can say for sure, and it helps nothing to dwell on them. 



Also, I'm curious as to when what CSS said will stop being discussed. I had IC today, and I was talking with my counselor about how I have a difficult time even putting myself back in that mindset of what I was thinking/feeling during my A -it seems almost unfathomable now. She said that's because you can't ever make sense out of insanity. I wasn't thinking sanely at that time, and now I am, so what I did then is difficult to comprehend. 

It's the same with CSS. She was fogged or crazy or had her head up her a$$ or whatever you want to call it. But she's not anymore. Rehashing her crazy statements when you are both fully committed to R doesn't seem to be necessary. They've been discussed over and over and analyzed to death. Calvin, do you think there will be a point that you can say, "You acted dumb and terrible for a short while, and we both know it. I'm going to quit going over those hurtful words, since I know you regret them and don't mean them. I'm going to focus on the loving, committed words and the actions you have shown since then instead. Those are the ones I want to keep repeating to myself." 

I hope this doesn't come off rude or anything. I am really curious if you think you will come to that at some point, if that's an option to let that pain go. I'm asking for you, but hoping that your answer will possibly let me know if DD will ever get there too.


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## bfree

CM,

I'm the one who brought all this up because like I said I'm trying to understand the thought process better. I'm honestly not even quite sure why. You're right that the thinking was from a place of insanity but I'm fascinated by the actions that don't seem to follow the statements. And I've always stressed actions over words. I really believe that even though CSS's mind was fogged up her heart was still calvin's. In your situation you have said numerous times that you never expected to be given an opportunity after the affair. But when you saw the chance to make it right you dove right in without hesitation indicating to me that even though your thought process was confused your heart knew what it wanted and needed. I'm starting to believe that this is why some people are remorseful and repentant and others (like my ex) are unable to come back from the brink.


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## CantSitStill

ok the night I refused to stop contact with the OM and left I went to the bar my sister was at..I fled the home real quick with just my purse. I texted with the OM that night and told him what happened..the next day was Saturday, I texted the ex OM then I called him. He asked if I wanna meet up and I told him no I said " I am not drunk but I don't feel like I'm in my right frame of mind and I want to just stay at my sisters and get my head together" He nicely said "ok I'll get a hold of you later" Ok soo that was the last I heard from him..I texted and texted and called with no response...nothiing, I tried on Sunday, still nothing..On Monday before I even knew what I was gonna do with Calvin I texted him and told him that he lost all chances with me and to never contact me again and to take me off all his contacts and facebook. Well in the meantime Calvin wanted me to stay home after picking up our son after school so we can talk. Calvin did not know I had rid the bastard exOm. So Calvin came home, took me out to eat and we talked. He had shown me in his eyes and his gentle touch and his words that he seriously loved me. I had no idea that he could even consider taking me home after the hell that went down.. He was so concerned about me eating and sleeping and being safe. He took me to my sisters, helped me pack and took me home..sounds weird but in an instant my heart melted and I just knew coming back to him was the right choice. I left out how and why he got a hold of me that Monday...I believe God and His angels had a part in this. Monday afternoon I flipped out. I was bawling and screaming and then couldnt breath..I tried to get a hold of my sister and my neice begging for them to take me to a mental hospital..no response from either one..a little bit after when I thought I was gonna die Calvin texted me out of the blue and said "What's wrong? are you ok?" Well holy crap! I asked him who had told him and he had no idea what I was talking about. Wow so I told him...he talked me out of my
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

He talked me out of my panic attack..it took at least an hour..I honestly think I lost my mind because I was sober as hell from the moment I left home all that whole time I was gone.. I do not remember how he did it but he got me breathing and out of my panic. I think God said to both of us "OH NO YOU BELONG TOGETHER" There are so many other details but it's so hard to write it all out here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Go to the thread in reconcilliation that says Finally Solid Progress...there is the thread in Considering Divorce or separation called Was Wrong About There Being Hope..that is the horrible story of the night I left him....Calvin cannot handle reading that one it was a bad bad time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> This to me is so important. There are a lot of "could haves" but no one can say for sure, and it helps nothing to dwell on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I'm curious as to when what CSS said will stop being discussed. I had IC today, and I was talking with my counselor about how I have a difficult time even putting myself back in that mindset of what I was thinking/feeling during my A -it seems almost unfathomable now. She said that's because you can't ever make sense out of insanity. I wasn't thinking sanely at that time, and now I am, so what I did then is difficult to comprehend.
> 
> It's the same with CSS. She was fogged or crazy or had her head up her a$$ or whatever you want to call it. But she's not anymore. Rehashing her crazy statements when you are both fully committed to R doesn't seem to be necessary. They've been discussed over and over and analyzed to death. Calvin, do you think there will be a point that you can say, "You acted dumb and terrible for a short while, and we both know it. I'm going to quit going over those hurtful words, since I know you regret them and don't mean them. I'm going to focus on the loving, committed words and the actions you have shown since then instead. Those are the ones I want to keep repeating to myself."
> 
> I hope this doesn't come off rude or anything. I am really curious if you think you will come to that at some point, if that's an option to let that pain go. I'm asking for you, but hoping that your answer will possibly let me know if DD will ever get there too.


CM,youre a wonderful lady who fvcked up big time like CSS,you both could almost be sisters.
I know you both hurt also but not as much as a BS.
You and CSS have a lot going for you,good women who lost sight of sanity for awhile.
CM,I want CSS to feel half of my pain,any more than that would be cruel.
I cant help but bring some of what she said up sometimes but you are right.Tomorrow is the one year mark she came back! I love love love my wife.Its time to write about how how great
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

She really is and give here more credit for what she's done and I will start doing that.
She's wonderful,beautiful,kind,understanding.
She's something else and a safe bet just like you.
I hear a lot of similar words and feelinging when you,CSS,EI and others on here put there thoughts into words.
We have some really good people here who did some dumb things,me included
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

One thing Calvin has been doing is asking me questions about how I felt about the exOM with senerios..like about the love for him and stuff ..but what I love is that he'll say.."are you ok talking about this right now?" "Is it bothering you too much" and at times I say no yet other times I can tell him I need a break from talking about it and he's totally understanding. Wow have things changed...I used to hate the questions and yet I knew me saying stop would have had him triggering or having him think I was keeping something from him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

bfree said:


> I did read your threads from a long time ago so I may not be understanding everything but let me put this out there and see what you and maybe more importantly CSS feels about it. The night you kicked her out...I don't think she chose him at all. I think that in her (at the time) warped mind (sorry CSS) she was rebelling against you. If she had actually chosen him she would have gone to him that night. It may just be a subtle difference but if I were in your shoes it would be an important difference to me. I've never been in the position of the WS so maybe I have it wrong but it seems to me that you were the one that was crushing her fantasy. Therefore you were the enemy at that time. And frankly it seems that is always the case since the WS always gets angry and blows up at the BS when the affair is exposed. So CSS didn't pick him over you. She rebelled against you for destroying her fantasy and interrupting her drug supply. At least that is how I see things.


Altho I left without wanting to work things out with Calvin at the time I now know that you are exactly right..I kept telling the Ex OM that this was about me and Calvin and not about him..Subconciously yes I believe you are so correct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> CM,
> 
> I'm the one who brought all this up because like I said I'm trying to understand the thought process better. I'm honestly not even quite sure why. You're right that the thinking was from a place of insanity but I'm fascinated by the actions that don't seem to follow the statements. And I've always stressed actions over words. I really believe that even though CSS's mind was fogged up her heart was still calvin's. In your situation you have said numerous times that you never expected to be given an opportunity after the affair. But when you saw the chance to make it right you dove right in without hesitation indicating to me that even though your thought process was confused your heart knew what it wanted and needed. I'm starting to believe that this is why some people are remorseful and repentant and others (like my ex) are unable to come back from the brink.


I know you brought it up this time, but it seems like Calvin writes about it a lot. And I wonder if that is helpful or just perpetuates the pain -for him and for CSS. I posted about it more for his sake than hers. I don't think it's good for him to spend too much time at this point going over the words that were said literally a year ago, but that time would be better spent on focusing on the positive. I'm not saying I know for sure, and I don't mean to imply rugsweeping or anything. Just a thought I threw out there. 

I see where you are coming from though. I see the interest in actions and words, especially on DDay, when everything is blowing up. For me personally, I never thought of running to xOM on DDay. DD came to my office, confronted me, I admitted to him about the A -there was yelling, panic, he slapped me, threw a water bottle, it was all overwhelming and chaotic. He called xOM and confronted him. I think he was at my office for about 20 minutes or so, and then he left to go to our house. 

I was in shock and basically sat at my desk trying to wrap my brain around what happened. DD called me about 30 minutes later and asked what I was doing and told me to get home. So I went. 

We talked/fought, and he told me to pack a bag and get out. I did, and drove straight to my parents' house. It was during the conversation at the house that DD asked who & what I wanted.

I didn't think about it till I read your post earlier, but I supposed that if I had wanted to, I could have gone to the xOM. I could have met up with him after the confrontation, but it didn't even occur to me to do so. He was already disposable at that point; I wanted to be away from him because I saw him as the reason (in addition to myself of course) that my world was exploding before my very eyes. I never had any contact with him after that day, and I really did not want to.


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## CantSitStill

CM for some reason with it being a year out,,us talking about all of this has been so theraputic. It's our way of saying wow look at us from then to now. A couple months ago yes I said just what you are saying.."lets not bring up the bad because we are doing so good now" but we are at a place where it is easier to talk about. Wow I never thought that would happen. In therapy today our counselor kept telling us how proud she is of us that we have learned so much and have come so far and so loving and ready to move past all of this. It's awesome that we can talk so open and honestly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CM,your right.
I do write about it a lot,I dont say these things much at home,I know it can hurt CSS,it actually makes her physically ill sometimes remembering every thing.
CM I am also like bfree picking her brain a little bit.
Why? That questions hangs around for awhile and BS will go to the ends of the Earth trying to get a full understanding that we will never fully get.
Like bfree said,actions count,words help from CSS.
A year later...its only been three or four weeks that I have been feeling different,my quest to find all the answers is almost dead.
I have learned a lot,so has CSS.Its incredible how much more there is to learn about the one you love after twenty years,the wonderful things you missed or took for granted,that simple loving touch on your back or butt,the arm around you at night while you listen to her breathe.
CSS deserves a lot of credit for how she turned things around and how patient she was when I lost it at times,I dont yell,I just was breaking down and she was there for me.
The ironey still gets to me sometimes,I NEED the one who hurt me like no one else to help me,no one else could.
The poison is almost out of me,she wore me down by being steadfast and unwaivering in her love for me.
Tomorrow is the one year anniversary she came home.Thats something to celebrate.
I like you CM and I see how you are like CSS.
You guys "get it" all the way.
I need to post the positive stuff more,there is a lot of it actually.
I think I'm going to do that more.
I'm sorry CM,I didnt mean to upset you or bum you out.
You do have a good point.
I'm gonna go hug my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Well the good thing is..I look forward to Calvin coming home..few years ago I felt dread like "oh gosh what's he gonna find wrong with the house or something to get mad about" I am not the only one that has made changes. Calvin appreciates me so much more and all he cares about is coming home to give me my hugs and kisses. No more painful quiet resentful fits between either of us. We talk everything out and never go to bed angry 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

CantSitStill said:


> We talk everything out and never go to bed angry [/size]


*
AHA!!!* "Talking" - the key to happiness


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> I know you brought it up this time, but it seems like Calvin writes about it a lot. And I wonder if that is helpful or just perpetuates the pain -for him and for CSS. I posted about it more for his sake than hers. I don't think it's good for him to spend too much time at this point going over the words that were said literally a year ago, but that time would be better spent on focusing on the positive. I'm not saying I know for sure, and I don't mean to imply rugsweeping or anything. Just a thought I threw out there.
> 
> I see where you are coming from though. I see the interest in actions and words, especially on DDay, when everything is blowing up. For me personally, I never thought of running to xOM on DDay. DD came to my office, confronted me, I admitted to him about the A -there was yelling, panic, he slapped me, threw a water bottle, it was all overwhelming and chaotic. He called xOM and confronted him. I think he was at my office for about 20 minutes or so, and then he left to go to our house.
> 
> I was in shock and basically sat at my desk trying to wrap my brain around what happened. DD called me about 30 minutes later and asked what I was doing and told me to get home. So I went.
> 
> We talked/fought, and he told me to pack a bag and get out. I did, and drove straight to my parents' house. It was during the conversation at the house that DD asked who & what I wanted.
> 
> I didn't think about it till I read your post earlier, but I supposed that if I had wanted to, I could have gone to the xOM. I could have met up with him after the confrontation, but it didn't even occur to me to do so. He was already disposable at that point; I wanted to be away from him because I saw him as the reason (in addition to myself of course) that my world was exploding before my very eyes. I never had any contact with him after that day, and I really did not want to.


CM and CSS I think that this is where you two really dodged the bullet. You did NOT go to the OM. I think that if Sweetie had stayed home, after our D-Day fight, we might not have divorced. But because she went to Brad's (for whatever reason) that hardened my heart against her like nothing else could. The fact that she went to him, and her words about the sex, were the last straw, and I would not even consider being with her again. She left, at first , voluntarily, but later called begging to come home, and I told her to stay with him, and never come back. You will find no pictures of us together, in my house. Every picture of her , I burned. Everything she touched, I changed or re-modeled, except the cat. LOL I even re-did the landscaping and re-painted the house and added a wing onto it, just so it wouldn't be the same house that she polluted. Maybe I better stop. This is making me feel real bad.


----------



## Rookie4

No, I need to get this out. 
I thought all of the evil thoughts that BS's are prone to. I imagined what I would do to her and Brad. You BS's know what kind of things I'm talking about. I was filled with hate, shame and disillusionment. 
Above all things, I wanted to PUNISH her. I wanted for her to beg on her belly for a second chance, then I would spit in her face. I ****ed many, many women, drank hard and heavy, was a beast to employees and family and friends. But it made me feel no better. I know that this is umpleasant to talk about , but it's real. It's what BS's think about after the horror of infidelity. 
Well, it shows that you should always be careful about what you wish for, because that is exactly what happened. She came to me and begged on her knees , and I couldn't do it, I couldn't humiliate her further. I lost my desire to punish her, because I could see that she felt worse than I could ever make her feel.


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## larry.gray

Rookie4 said:


> I lost my desire to punish her, because I could see that she felt worse than I could ever make her feel.


While your wife did something very selfish, that statements demonstrates she is capable of empathy. That's the question so many BS have to ask in R, is my WS capable of empathy? You can't let her do this to you again, but if she really knows just how devastating _to both of you_ this was, she could never let herself go down that path again.


----------



## larry.gray

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I was just trying to communicate that even with Matt's offer, limbo is my own state of mind because I want to see signs of healing from him. I want to know that I CAN be there with him and we can be happy together after all the pain I caused. There is nothing he can do or say to reassure my mind - I am the one who needs to keep working on us and him and me to become more comfortable with the hope of rebuilding our relationship, if that makes any sense.


FULL STOP.

Sorry, but I do think you need brutal honesty. You have a _chance_ at reconciliation. That's the best you've got, only a chance. You've got to embrace that chance with all of your heart and it could happen.

That reconciliation is fully dependent on you throwing your full heart behind doing so. You can't do this half way. Holding back in fear of more heartbreak isn't going to cut it. If Dr. M sees you holding back, it makes your chances plummet.


----------



## larry.gray

Night shift Rookie? Tennessee, right - Eastern or Mountain Time?


----------



## Rookie4

Yep, Ive been on Third shift for 3 or 4 years now. Eastern time. I will be getting off nights when I start my new job. In about a month. It would have been sooner, but losing my toes set it back a while.
I did want to point out that I agree with you. She has shown more true remorse than I ever imagined, and has done a HUGE amount to atone for the affair. I'm pretty much done with the "mind movies", since talking with her therapist and coming to the conclusion that her words were angry spoutings and not her true feelings. Her therapist has assured me that the affair was not sexual but rebellion against what she (ex) thought was a failed marriage and her desire to punish me for what she percieved at the time as my fault. This accounts for her selfishness, because she has never been a selfish person, quite the contrary.
When I would not let her come home, she had to face reality and it almost destroyed her. From blaming me, she went 180 and has taken all of the blame on herself. Even now her self image is poor, but on the positive side, her therapist says that since we began to R, it has improved dramtically and she is not nearly as depressed as before.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Checking in, here. Looking at a couple of posts, I see where a couple of BSs wanted to punish their wayward spouse. I never felt this. 

I DID want to "get something for myself", such as in having a RA, but not to punish - to do something to make myself feel better, attractive, wanted by someone. It obviously wasn't my wife at the time. 

I still, by the way, feel this way. Interestingly, I have recently been approached by a couple of ladies who I find attractive, on a certain level. But don't worry, I'm not doing anything about it. It does make me feel better, however.

As far as how we're doing, well, I guess you all would call it an open marriage. She continues to maintain this friendship long-distance. And you know, I grew up in the 60s and 70s, where there was free love, and very few rules. So maybe this works. I know it doesn't work on TAM. But it's where things are at right now. 

I now have the feeling that she will wake up one day and realize how wrong it is to maintain this friendship, but frankly, we are getting along so much better now, intimacy and friendship-wise. I don't feel anymore like demanding that she stop it. She knows how I feel. 

She is a wonderful person who has a short-circuit somewhere in her brain.


----------



## calvin

Well bobka,I hurt so bad I wanted CSS to have a tast of it,bringing another man into our marriage who called and taunted me for eight months really p!ssed me off.
Her A really screwed up my head and did a number on me.
I'm glad where we are at now,I think about her all the time and when I get home she's always right there to greet me with hugs and kisses.
It took me awhile to get there but I'm glad I stuck it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I don't mean to sound judgemental, but I know I'm probably going to. I understand the allure of an open marriage. I have nothing against anyone who is in that lifestyle. If it works for them, that's totally fine by me.

However, from everything that I have read and heard about an open marriage there is one word that is central: TRUST.

They allow each other to freely seek sexual satisfaction outside their marriage without thinking of it as infidelity. Yet, they can only do so with trust. Also BOTH parties are willing participants. It ain't a one sided deal.

In other words...you need to ask yourself if you're truly in an open marriage or if you're just settling for her talking to her OM in hopes that she comes around. People in open marriages know they're in open marriages. They don't just say "well...I guess you could call it an open marriage".


----------



## Lister

SomedayDig said:


> Hi Lister...I'm gonna admit that it will be a tad difficult for me to type this without triggering on my own, but that's my bag to carry.
> 
> First, thanks for coming here to read AND share. I can only tell you from what I've experienced as a BS is much like what SG is going through. See, my wife had a 5 year affair. I had absolutely no idea it was going on for a few reasons. First, I was a corporate pilot so I was flying all over the US, the Caribbean and Central America. It was not uncommon for me to be gone for 2 week stretches. Now, that is NOT the reason she had her affair, however it sure helped her conceal it for a long time. Second, she was very good at compartmentalizing things. Sound familiar?
> 
> The story goes that after I walked away from the flying job for what I thought was a noble reason...I wanted to be home with my family more than collect a big paycheck...it only took me 5 months to discover the affair. That's right. For 5 years her affair went on, but as soon as I was home 24/7, I was able to uncover it within those few months. That was pretty eye opening.
> 
> What happened next, is what hurt the most. You can read what I wrote to SG, but I'd rather say it directly to you. Any...ANY form of trickle truth creates a death by a thousand cuts. You are literally killing SG's love, not to mention her soul. Every single time my wife, Regret214, "came clean" again ~ well, it hurt so much that I was taken back to March 6, 2012. Our Dday.
> 
> I wrote a thread last summer, and it's one I think every WS should read. I think it was titled "Archeologist of Truth". It basically was my feeling of being a BS and having to search for the truth. I imagined standing there with a shovel...digging and digging, while Regret stood by and watched. Every time the shovel would clink on a new rock (truth), she would say, "Oh, yeah, now I remember that". It got to the point where I was standing in a very deep hole, covered with dirt and sweating. Meanwhile, Regret is standing at the top of the hole I was in...nice and clean...looking down at me toiling away.
> 
> Get down in that f'ng hole and dig Lister. This isn't SG's job to figure out the details of your affair. It's YOUR job to do so. Don't allow her to get any dirtier than she already has. She doesn't deserve it. Your marriage...your relationship...your FUTURE doesn't deserve it.
> 
> So many times, we betrayed ones, sit on a couch. Alone with our thoughts. And some of those times it can be daunting. All we have ever asked for...all we have ever wanted was something so very simple: the Truth.
> 
> Don't pretend. Don't evade. There is nothing more that can hurt SG than you have already done by having the affair. If you're holding the most minute bit of truth back, in the end, you are only hurting yourself.
> 
> For SG, I will say this, on the days when the clouds are dark and the rain falls from the sky and lightning flashes all around, take comfort in one thing...that above all of those clouds, rain and lightning the sun is shining brightly. You just can't see it.
> 
> BUT...that doesn't mean it's not still there.


Someday, thanks for the welcome and i'm sorry for being the cause of a trigger.

I get that it is me that needs to dig and i will because i am naturally a selfish person and what i really want is to be with SG for the rest of my life, so i will dig now. I finally 'really' understand and will share whatever she needs to know. I have lied, evaded and TTd for selfish reasons, i understand that. 

What I did was so horrible that it is hard to face the facts and i lied not just to SG but to myself a lot during and after the A just to avoid the truth that i was a cruel, self centred SOAB. One of those lies was that not telling her the truth was 'sparing' her from pain. If I told her, for example, that i didn't see the OW at weekends then it would spare her that particular horror etc etc. Stupid stupid and i always got found out, felt like a naughty schoolboy, SG felt like she had been hit by a bus. No comparrison.

The thought of complete disclosure and honesty about the A is still unnerving although i REALLY cannot think of anything else that can be disclosed other than very intimate stuff, and SG has said she doesn't want that sort of detail. But i am prepared for the next question out of the blue, and when i say prepared i mean prepared to answer honestly however hard or painful i think it will be. It's not for me to decide what will be painful for SG to know.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to me, it is appreciated.


----------



## cpacan

SomedayDig said:


> I don't mean to sound judgemental, but I know I'm probably going to. I understand the allure of an open marriage. I have nothing against anyone who is in that lifestyle. If it works for them, that's totally fine by me.
> 
> However, from everything that I have read and heard about an open marriage there is one word that is central: TRUST.
> 
> They allow each other to freely seek sexual satisfaction outside their marriage without thinking of it as infidelity. Yet, they can only do so with trust. Also BOTH parties are willing participants. It ain't a one sided deal.
> 
> In other words...you need to ask yourself if you're truly in an open marriage or if you're just settling for her talking to her OM in hopes that she comes around. People in open marriages know they're in open marriages. They don't just say "well...I guess you could call it an open marriage".


I know I'm not in a perfect spot either, so who am I to tell anyone anything, but one thing changed the dynamics for us at the time; the discussion about open marriage and me using the free pass provided by her - it totaly stopped my wife's contact attempts with OM and flirtatious behaviour in general.

It's a dangerous path though, because it also may leave the initial WS with a sense of entitlement and "now we're even feeling" instead of feeling guilt and showing remorse.

But HSE, it's really your call, you decide for one-side open marriage, mutual open marriage or monogamous marriage. What does your gut say?


----------



## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Checking in, here. Looking at a couple of posts, I see where a couple of BSs wanted to punish their wayward spouse. I never felt this.
> 
> I DID want to "get something for myself", such as in having a RA, but not to punish - to do something to make myself feel better, attractive, wanted by someone. It obviously wasn't my wife at the time.
> 
> I still, by the way, feel this way. Interestingly, I have recently been approached by a couple of ladies who I find attractive, on a certain level. But don't worry, I'm not doing anything about it. It does make me feel better, however.
> 
> As far as how we're doing, well, I guess you all would call it an open marriage. She continues to maintain this friendship long-distance. And you know, I grew up in the 60s and 70s, where there was free love, and very few rules. So maybe this works. I know it doesn't work on TAM. But it's where things are at right now.
> 
> I now have the feeling that she will wake up one day and realize how wrong it is to maintain this friendship, but frankly, we are getting along so much better now, intimacy and friendship-wise. I don't feel anymore like demanding that she stop it. She knows how I feel.
> 
> She is a wonderful person who has a short-circuit somewhere in her brain.


So your wife has agreed to this? She is going to allow you to date and potentially have sex with other women? I suppose that is one way to either make it work or to get her to have that elusive epiphany.


----------



## bfree

Lister said:


> Someday, thanks for the welcome and i'm sorry for being the cause of a trigger.
> 
> I get that it is me that needs to dig and i will because i am naturally a selfish person and what i really want is to be with SG for the rest of my life, so i will dig now. I finally 'really' understand and will share whatever she needs to know. I have lied, evaded and TTd for selfish reasons, i understand that.
> 
> What I did was so horrible that it is hard to face the facts and i lied not just to SG but to myself a lot during and after the A just to avoid the truth that i was a cruel, self centred SOAB. One of those lies was that not telling her the truth was 'sparing' her from pain. If I told her, for example, that i didn't see the OW at weekends then it would spare her that particular horror etc etc. Stupid stupid and i always got found out, felt like a naughty schoolboy, SG felt like she had been hit by a bus. No comparrison.
> 
> The thought of complete disclosure and honesty about the A is still unnerving although i REALLY cannot think of anything else that can be disclosed other than very intimate stuff, and SG has said she doesn't want that sort of detail. But i am prepared for the next question out of the blue, and when i say prepared i mean prepared to answer honestly however hard or painful i think it will be. It's not for me to decide what will be painful for SG to know.
> 
> Thanks again for taking the time to reply to me, it is appreciated.


Also, you need to be prepared for SG to ask the same question(s) again and again. It may be different variations of the same question but they will be repetitive. This is necessary because the BS is in a state of shock and only by repeating the same questions do they finally come to a sense of reality regarding the situation. You are going to get very tired of hearing it and your instinct is going to be to say "I've already answered that!" What you need to do is shut up and answer as often as is needed. The day you stop answering when she needs you to answer is the day your marriage begins to rot and whither away.


----------



## Lister

StarGazer101 said:


> DG My heart goes out to you - I think that there must always be a concern under these conditions ... every time H left the house for months I was terrified that he was going to her. (_His job allows him a great deal of flexibility and he can work from home so much of the affair was conducted at her flat when he was supposed to be working)_. I have had to put blind trust in him not to... not at all easy, but over time it has gotten easier and now I can say that I do believe he doesn't, and I only have the briefest of pangs now and again.
> 
> Lots and lots of _loving_ before he goes to work and when he comes home might help,  and if he can bombard you with texts to show he's thinking of you during the day that's all to
> the good!
> 
> In the end we have to believe that we are giving our trust to someone who has _learned_ to value it and they have an absolute duty to treasure and protect every single ounce of it that we give. When we see that they do, then maybe we can take that huge leap ..... for now lots of little hops are still moving us forward.


Lots of loving sounds grrrreat:smthumbup:

Hard as it may be to believe or understand the thought of seeing OW again is horrible to me. All affection for her as gone and has been replaced by complete indifference.

An impartial observer might view that as cruel and heartless as I have hurt her too, but she knew what she was doing (she had had affairs with married men before of course). I cannot feel any guilt or remorse for OWs pain any more (i did for a while after D Day), all my remorse now has to be for what i have done to you. Love you


----------



## Lister

bfree said:


> Lister,
> 
> Heed Dig and calvin's advice. The affair is the stab to the gut but its the trickle truth bleeding out that kills the love and the marriage.


Thanks Bfree, message is coming through loud and clear. Its really helping to hear it from others, helps counter the really strong urge that is still there to hide the truth. Its amazing how strong the urge is even though logic and realization tell you how dangerous and wrong it is.


----------



## Lister

_Lister - I am a WS who lied and lied and lied until my husband had proof and backed me into a corner. For me, it was like I couldn't tell the truth until I felt like all had been lost in my relationship, and there was nothing left that I was trying to "protect" or "save". DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKES. The lying is far, far worse for my husband to deal with than the actual affair. He feels that he gave me so many opportunities to just TALK to him, and we could have worked through it. But I was afraid, I was in such a habit of lying, that I couldn't break that, even when he'd ask a question I KNEW he already knew the answer to. The lies kept coming out of my mouth before I could even think of answering. It was so horrible. I have dug an incredibly deep pit to attempt to build a relationship from. Please, even if all your "instincts" tell you otherwise, just sit her down without her requesting it and talk her through EVERYTHING. Every single possible detail - conversations, places, appearances, thoughts, anything you can possibly regurgitate.

As for us, things are up and down as one could expect. Matt struggled with a lot of anger Monday and Tuesday, but today has been better so far. We are having a snow day here, so I've enjoyed being lazy and just hanging out with Matt and our son.  Matt has asked me if he can help me move my belongings from the guest room back into our room, which is a huge thing. Honestly, I'm a little scared to do it. There's been some changes for us lately that have significantly impacted our choices regarding R or D, and I am afraid to really hope that R is a possibility, even though I desperately want that.

He asked last night what he had to do to make me feel I was no longer in limbo, and I don't know. Basically, he summed it up this way, "So there's nothing I can do to make you not feel in limbo, and nothing you can do to make me feel like taking another chance on you." I said that if I could figure out how to make the second part not true, then the first part would likely no longer be true. So, I'll just keep working on that second part and hopefully the first will fall into place for us.[/QUOTE]_

*Hi Mrs M, Your experience of TT seems very similar to mine. I have already made the mistakes though, all i can do now is not repeat them. I just hope that SG can forgive me although I know it must be close to impossible. If the situation was reversed i'm not sure i could ever forgive her. She has done all the work so far and the realisation of how hard she is prepared to work and suffer for our relationship is overwhelming.

I really hope that Matt is prepared to give you a chance to repair the damage and work with you on R.*


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> I don't mean to sound judgemental, but I know I'm probably going to. I understand the allure of an open marriage. I have nothing against anyone who is in that lifestyle. If it works for them, that's totally fine by me.
> 
> However, from everything that I have read and heard about an open marriage there is one word that is central: TRUST.
> 
> They allow each other to freely seek sexual satisfaction outside their marriage without thinking of it as infidelity. Yet, they can only do so with trust. Also BOTH parties are willing participants. It ain't a one sided deal.
> 
> In other words...you need to ask yourself if you're truly in an open marriage or if you're just settling for her talking to her OM in hopes that she comes around. People in open marriages know they're in open marriages. They don't just say "well...I guess you could call it an open marriage".


Somedaydig has hit it right on the head. An "open marriage", that is only "open" to one of the parties involved, isn't really 'Open" at all. Bobka, sorry to say this, but you are attempting to justify being weak. Your wife has told you how it was going to be, and you are obeying her. Is the intimacy and improved imteraction worth your self respect? Your wife's affair is continuing and wishing and hoping won't end it. Your weakness is now as much to blame for it's continuation as she is.


----------



## Rookie4

The Byrds - I'll feel a whole lot better - YouTube Here is some music to illustrate my point.


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## Rookie4

OK, Bobka, time to stand tall.Image Detail for - Courage Is Essential - Sean Sabourin


----------



## Rookie4

More music, makes me proud just to listen. Scottish Pipes & Drum Blue Bonnets Bonnie Dundee Cambels Are Coming - YouTube


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## Rookie4

Sorry about that , posters. I'm feeling pretty bouncy today. If I still had my toes, I would kick the a** off an Ox. LOL


----------



## SomedayDig

Lister said:


> Someday, thanks for the welcome and i'm sorry for being the cause of a trigger.
> 
> *No worries, man. Triggers happen because they are part of the PTSD of infidelity. *
> 
> I get that it is me that needs to dig and i will because i am naturally a selfish person and what i really want is to be with SG for the rest of my life, so i will dig now. I finally 'really' understand and will share whatever she needs to know. I have lied, evaded and TTd for selfish reasons, i understand that.
> 
> *That realization is PRICELESS and it is exactly what SG needs from you.*
> 
> What I did was so horrible that it is hard to face the facts and i lied not just to SG but to myself a lot during and after the A just to avoid the truth that i was a cruel, self centred SOAB. *One of those lies was that not telling her the truth was 'sparing' her from pain. If I told her, for example, that i didn't see the OW at weekends then it would spare her that particular horror etc etc.* Stupid stupid and i always got found out, felt like a naughty schoolboy, SG felt like she had been hit by a bus. No comparrison.
> 
> *That part that I put in bold is exactly how a lot of waywards feel. But deep inside, you know that it was truly a self-serving thought that you were 'sparing' her. Again, you recognize that now and that is good!*
> 
> The thought of complete disclosure and honesty about the A is still unnerving although i REALLY cannot think of anything else that can be disclosed other than very intimate stuff, and SG has said she doesn't want that sort of detail. But i am prepared for the next question out of the blue, and when i say prepared i mean prepared to answer honestly however hard or painful i think it will be. It's not for me to decide what will be painful for SG to know.
> 
> *If SG doesn't want to know intimate stuff, then that is okay. However, be prepared that no matter how scared you are, if she does ask about anything...you MUST tell her. Those are the times where you need to set your ego aside and understand that only through truth can she heal.*
> 
> Thanks again for taking the time to reply to me, it is appreciated.


You're welcome. The road you two are going down right now is going to be rocky and bumpy. The road to reconciliation is extremely windy and filled with switchback curves. Remember one thing, though - ALWAYS keep your eyes on the road.


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## Rookie4

Old Timer, you still in NOLA? Listen to this>Jerry Lee Lewis - Drinking Wine Spo-Dee-O-Dee - YouTube


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> Old Timer, you still in NOLA?


Nope - came back Tuesday. Was going back to work as a Super Bowl volunteer this weekend, but my MIL is in really bad shape - they don't expect her to make it through the weekend, so I'm staying around to be w/ the kids if she goes. 

I'm going back to NOLA late next week and staying through Fat Tuesday. MIL's a really sweet lady and has been very good to me over the years, and all that - but the b!tch better not die during Mardi Gras - cause I ain't coming home from that.


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## CantSitStill

Horray! We made it past that year mark..it's time to celebrate how much better we have become 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Horray! We made it past that year mark..it's time to celebrate how much better we have become
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I bought you a 40 of Old English,what more do you want woman!?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

old timer said:


> Here's a question that I have, not pointed at anyone:
> 
> How many "Betrayed Spouses" come to TAM and were guilty of undiscovered infidelity themselves - before discovering their spouse's "A", but never "fess up" to their own cheating?
> 
> I'll bet there are more than one or two.
> 
> I have asked this question before in other threads, and the room goes very "quiet". No one addresses it, and I find that very telling.
> 
> The position of being the "betrayed spouse" has a certain amount of power bestowed upon it - you have the moral "high ground". I know - I've been there. After discovering my wife's A (after having been in an undiscovered five-year A of my own), I took the "holier than thou" position, and beat her into the ground with it - because I didn't think she was "remorseful enough" about her A.
> 
> Because of a very discreet AP, I could have kept this facade going indefinitely, and most likely never have been found out. However, the pain I could see it was causing my wife (I truly do love her, you know, in spite of my selfishness) and the hypocrisy of it all was literally eating me up inside.
> 
> After finding TAM, and reading all the info about "full disclosure", I admitted to my wife that I had been unfaithful. Had I admitted my own cheating upon finding her out (instead of perpetuating the "holier than thou" lie), I sincerely believe we could be on the way to a true reconciliation by now.
> 
> May be I'm looking for absolution of some sort, but I truly believe there are "Betrayed Spouses" here on TAM who have cheated themselves, and just cannot, for whatever reason, admit they have done the same thing as their "Wandering Spouse".
> 
> As I said - this post is not pointed at ANYONE here. It's just a theory I have.
> 
> Flame away.


Not exactly what you're looking for but here is my story...

OK, I will go ahead and share this and even though it didn't play any part in what we are going through now it still has some relevance and I feel it's only fair to EI.

I had a ONS 30 years ago before we were married. I was 18 and we were engaged. About 9 months before our wedding my ex gf showed up at my house one day and we tried to have sex, but I was so nervous and full of guilt I couldn't perform if you know what I mean. Same thing though because I tried. After a minute or two, I just said "I can't do this" and that was it. 

I never confessed but a "friend" told EI about it 2 weeks before our wedding in a huge, public, humiliating confrontation, that was meant to cause EI as much hurt as possible. The friend was also a friend of my ex gf.

EI never used that against me once in a negative way either during our R. Only now has she brought it up a few times. I have tearfully apologized too. We simply rugswept it then and she, obviously still married me. I had all but forgotten it, but she hasn't. It played no part in her A, this was not a RA. 

Looking back on it now from this perspective it sucks, I hate it, I was a jerk to do that to her then and I am deeply ashamed, especially since we never really dealt with it. She had nightmares about it for 12 years. I am not in R because of what I did then, I am in R because of my refusal to work on our marriage when she begged me to, and because she is truly sorry and I really love her.


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## calvin

I've been tempted but it was just the wrong thing to do.
I did start getting a little to close to a girl I was training at work about 8 or 9 months ago,she was cheated on twice,I told her my story.
It crossed my mind that it would be fair and payback to CSS.
Thank God I came to my senses.
I'm not proud for trying to justify it in my head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Horray! We made it past that year mark..it's time to celebrate how much better we have become
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:toast: :smthumbup: :yay:

You know what anniversary will be the best one. The one that you didn't even remember. And I know you'll get there.


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## bfree

There but for the grace of God go I

We are all weak and we can all be lead into temptation. I know I can be bad because I have been bad. I pray every night that I continue to be good and to be able to see the danger coming.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> :toast: :smthumbup: :yay:
> 
> You know what anniversary will be the best one. The one that you didn't even remember. And I know you'll get there.


Oh,I'll remember but Feb.1st is a good day.
It marks the start when we rolled up our sleeves and got to work,its the day things slowly started getting better.
No regrets now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

calvin said:


> Oh,I'll remember but Feb.1st is a good day.
> It marks the start when we rolled up our sleeves and got to work,its the day things slowly started getting better.
> *No regrets now.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Worth repeating.
Congratulations Cant&Calvin.:smthumbup:


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## CantSitStill

bfree said:


> There but for the grace of God go I
> 
> We are all weak and we can all be lead into temptation. I know I can be bad because I have been bad. I pray every night that I continue to be good and to be able to see the danger coming.


Like that, goodnight and btw thank you..you have been encouraging us along the way....many others here have too...our therapist asked us how many hours we spend on TAM after we told her about the support we get here...lol we said 2 hours a day and you shoulda seen her face lol..so I said "well it's in 10min incriments" lol well...ok we are guilty but my goodness the advice has helped us so much..she asked a few question about how it's helping us. We gave a few examples of things people advised us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> Oh,I'll remember but Feb.1st is a good day.
> It marks the start when we rolled up our sleeves and got to work,its the day things slowly started getting better.
> No regrets now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good point.


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## margrace

hi everyone:

it seems so backwards, but the better things get with R, the more anxiety and flashbacks i have.

slowly, slowly... my fWH and i are still not at full honesty but he and the counselor say that this will happen. it's hard to admit to myself that by now i actually do believe that fWH's effort in counseling is genuine and that the progress is real ... there has been a little part of me that wondered if he was just upping his game  you all know how resistant/hesitant he has been.

remember how i hung on for so long when things looked terrible? now that they look better, i feel like finding a back door and running out of it. not really, i wouldn't really just bail like that... but i *feel* that way today.

last night, as i was falling asleep, something that i had said to him earlier reminded me of one of the emails that i found, something that he had written to AP .... and before i knew it, i felt like, _what_?!!! how _could_ you?!!! suddenly i felt FULL of all the shock, all the hurt, all the anger, all the disorientation and insanity of those first few weeks. had to get up and make a cup of tea. 

fWH got up a bit later and saw me sitting there. he asked me if i had been thinking of some part of what he had done. i said yes, but i did not say exactly what.... i kind of didn't want to form the words. he sat down and said how sorry he is, and that he hates it that i have to be haunted like this... that i did not deserve any of what he did to me and that i don't deserve to be going through this still.

that kind of response helps me keep the faith. i guess there's no way to get through it except to just keep going through it...


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## B1

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> it seems so backwards, but the better things get with R, the more anxiety and flashbacks i have.
> 
> slowly, slowly... my fWH and i are still not at full honesty but he and the counselor say that this will happen. it's hard to admit to myself that by now i actually do believe that fWH's effort in counseling is genuine and that the progress is real ... there has been a little part of me that wondered if he was just upping his game  you all know how resistant/hesitant he has been.
> 
> remember how i hung on for so long when things looked terrible? now that they look better, i feel like finding a back door and running out of it. not really, i wouldn't really just bail like that... but i *feel* that way today.
> 
> last night, as i was falling asleep, something that i had said to him earlier reminded me of one of the emails that i found, something that he had written to AP .... and before i knew it, i felt like, _what_?!!! how _could_ you?!!! suddenly i felt FULL of all the shock, all the hurt, all the anger, all the disorientation and insanity of those first few weeks. had to get up and make a cup of tea.
> 
> fWH got up a bit later and saw me sitting there. he asked me if i had been thinking of some part of what he had done. i said yes, but i did not say exactly what.... i kind of didn't want to form the words. he sat down and said how sorry he is, and that he hates it that i have to be haunted like this... that i did not deserve any of what he did to me and that i don't deserve to be going through this still.
> 
> that kind of response helps me keep the faith. i guess there's no way to get through it except to just keep going through it...


Wow margrace.....what a change in attitude. That had to be wonderful to hear. I'm so happy for you.

As for the hurt, that's normal margrace, it's still going to get you from time to time. And sometimes when things start to feel normal it gets scary, because normal is so far removed from what you are use too.

also, it's scary because you get your hopes up and I think you are afraid to do that right now. but after him saying what he said I think you can get your hopes up some


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## StarGazer101

margrace I often find that when things seem good with us that for some reason I get filled with anxiety and start remembering things. I think it's because I get a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel and it scares me that it could be snatched away so in some way I hold onto fear as a comfort. Letting go of it in some way feels like I'm exposing myself to even more hurt and it's terrifying.

I think your H sounds like he's genuinely remorseful and I'm so glad you can take comfort from him. I think it will just take time for you to believe in your heart that this is real and let go of the fear. With your H supporting you as he seems to be trying to do I'm sure that little by little you will be able to do so.


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## B1

lil update.
Still at the hospital, Jo-Jo is doing very well.
He may go home tomorrow.

We are doing good, EI stays on the stressed side though, which is understandable. We are worried how things will go once home, moving him caring for him will change drastically, at least it will at first. Then we have his pending move to work on. A lot going on. Then of course there is US and our R which has taken a back seat and I start to get insecure. Even though I know why and completely understand I miss my EI and her comfort. Guess I am still somewhat needy a little and miss her attention.

But EI is being mom now, and that's what she needs to be doing. She's also exhausted, she hasn't been home now in 5 days. She can only stretch so far.

Anyway that's where we are right now. hope everyone has a great Saturday.


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## Mike11

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It is huge. I am so grateful for the opportunity to spend more time as a couple with Matt, and that he has invited me to share a room with him again. I didn't mean to sound negative at all in my previous post. I was just trying to communicate that even with Matt's offer, limbo is my own state of mind because I want to see signs of healing from him. I want to know that I CAN be there with him and we can be happy together after all the pain I caused. There is nothing he can do or say to reassure my mind - I am the one who needs to keep working on us and him and me to become more comfortable with the hope of rebuilding our relationship, if that makes any sense.
> 
> Thinking of you all on this frigid Thursday in the midwest. I hope things are going well, one day at a time.





B1 said:


> lil update.
> Still at the hospital, Jo-Jo is doing very well.
> He may go home tomorrow.
> 
> We are doing good, EI stays on the stressed side though, which is understandable. We are worried how things will go once home, moving him caring for him will change drastically, at least it will at first. Then we have his pending move to work on. A lot going on. Then of course there is US and our R which has taken a back seat and I start to get insecure. Even though I know why and completely understand I miss my EI and her comfort. Guess I am still somewhat needy a little and miss her attention.
> 
> But EI is being mom now, and that's what she needs to be doing. She's also exhausted, she hasn't been home now in 5 days. She can only stretch so far.
> 
> Anyway that's where we are right now. hope everyone has a great Saturday.


Hi B1 I just caught up with your messages, I have been in your shoes somewhat,Family member had a life threatening situation that needed extensive surgery we are still in recovery, please let me know if you need any support or have any questions


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## CantSitStill

God bless you EI..I mean that..Been an exhausting week for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

B1 said:


> Wow margrace.....what a change in attitude. That had to be wonderful to hear. I'm so happy for you.
> 
> As for the hurt, that's normal margrace, it's still going to get you from time to time. And sometimes when things start to feel normal it gets scary, because normal is so far removed from what you are use too.
> 
> also, it's scary because you get your hopes up and I think you are afraid to do that right now. but after him saying what he said I think you can get your hopes up some


thank you, B1 -- and i'm sending big hugs to you, EI, and your family tonight.


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## margrace

StarGazer101 said:


> margrace I often find that when things seem good with us that for some reason I get filled with anxiety and start remembering things. I think it's because I get a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel and it scares me that it could be snatched away so in some way I hold onto fear as a comfort. Letting go of it in some way feels like I'm exposing myself to even more hurt and it's terrifying.
> 
> I think your H sounds like he's genuinely remorseful and I'm so glad you can take comfort from him. I think it will just take time for you to believe in your heart that this is real and let go of the fear. With your H supporting you as he seems to be trying to do I'm sure that little by little you will be able to do so.


SG, thank you and i'm glad to know that it sounds normal (whatever that means!) to both you and B1...


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## Mr Blunt

Thanks for the update B1
*Great to hear that Jo-Jo is doing well!!*

I am also glad that you miss EI. That tells me that you have a strong connection to her and that you have none of that macho macho crap. You know, that crap that tries to put up a front that they do not need their wife. When you have a good woman like you do, then I can see why God said that it is best that He give man a woman. God’s intention was that the woman would be a good woman and EI is a good woman!

I want to congratulate you and EI for raising 5 children. I raised three and I almost went insane. Ok that was a bit exaggeration. *It may not seem like it to some but raising children and loving them the way I am seeing you and EI loving Jo Jo is a calling of God.* Just because it is not sensational does not mean that it is anything less than a special calling for parents. In fact I bet that was the first calling God gave to man and woman.

I know that you and EI are suffering but that is when I know that two people are for real and are doing God’s calling. When two people are suffering and they will not quit and then are right beside a child when that child needs them the most, well I can not help but think that God is smiling at B1 and EI. *You are being tested by fire and you both are turning into something better than gold.*

I am impressed!


Blunt


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## CantSitStill

I'm not sure of the verse but there is one about how trying times bring more faith.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I'm just really wiped out tired as hell.
Hope you all are doing well.
Glad to hear Jo-Jo is doing well,take care of EI B1.
One thing,I never thought R was possible for awhile,I wanted it so bad then I wanted out really bad.
Never give up,jh52 is right.
Hour by hour,day by day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Isn't that something? How many other BS' fought for their WS then once they came back it turned the other way..once you got them you don't know if you want them so they are fighting their butts off for you?? What a rollercoaster!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> I'm not sure of the verse but there is one about how trying times bring more faith.


CantSitStill
You are like me and remember parts of scripture. I remembered the parts about “tested” “fire” and “gold” but did not remember the scripture. With you posting the above I decided to do the research. With Google it is easy. Anyway, reprinted below is the scripture that i was referring to and maybe it was the one you remembered also.

Guess my mom was right when she told me not to argue with her (when she made me go to Sunday school) and that *some day I will get some value out of God’s word.*


1 Peter 1:6–7 (ESV)
6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor


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## CantSitStill

Mr Blunt said:


> CantSitStill
> You are like me and remember parts of scripture. I remembered the parts about “tested” “fire” and “gold” but did not remember the scripture. With you posting the above I decided to do the research. With Google it is easy. Anyway, reprinted below is the scripture that i was referring to and maybe it was the one you remembered also.
> 
> Guess my mom was right when she told me not to argue with her (when she made me go to Sunday school) and that *some day I will get some value out of God’s word.*
> 
> 
> 1 Peter 1:6–7 (ESV)
> 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor


thank you, that it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



CantSitStill said:


> Isn't that something? How many other BS' fought for their WS then once they came back it turned the other way..once you got them you don't know if you want them so they are fighting their butts off for you?? What a rollercoaster!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Css, this thought of yours is the one half of "you can't always have what you want" and "you don't always want what you can have".

When I first read it I thought to myself, yes, this one of the feelings I have, but then examined the feeling a bit more and now I don't think it's about this, for me anyway. I think it's more that you fight your a$$ off as a BS, and all this time you wonder if and when it'll happen again.

This uncertainty manifests itself in awareness about other choices, I think. So maybe both BS and WS should just realize that there are no certainties or guarantees given.


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> Isn't that something? How many other BS' fought for their WS then once they came back it turned the other way..once you got them you don't know if you want them so they are fighting their butts off for you?? What a rollercoaster!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll put my hand up there CSS. There are days when I wonder if its all worth it. The triggers, the flashbacks, the hurt, but then I think about the time when H moved out. We were separated for 3 months, even though I still saw him everyday, it was just heartbreaking. I cried myself to sleep almost every night. So now when I wonder if its all worth it, I just think about that time, when he wasn't here and realise it was so much harder without him! Despite everything I love him to bits and my future is with him.

Hope you all have a peaceful Sunday!
DG
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'll put my hand up there CSS. There are days when I wonder if its all worth it. The triggers, the flashbacks, the hurt, but then I think about the time when H moved out. We were separated for 3 months, even though I still saw him everyday, it was just heartbreaking. I cried myself to sleep almost every night. So now when I wonder if its all worth it, I just think about that time, when he wasn't here and realise it was so much harder without him! Despite everything I love him to bits and my future is with him.
> 
> Hope you all have a peaceful Sunday!
> DG
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes, me too, DG, you said it well as usual.

i feel strongly that R is so worth it if we can get there and i don't have a single doubt about that. i don't have any doubts about loving my fWH.

but even when R is going really well, i see that you still get those moments where you're suddenly hit with what happened -- and sometimes for me, terror that it's all happening again, that i'm being fooled again (even now), that i'm about to step on another one of those landmines. 

and SG and B1, i think you are saying that the more open we are to R, the more unguarded we are against those moments.

and that's how you get that panicked feeling that you need to run away from the minefield.

but i want to say to the fWSs that, even though feelings are important, it's only a feeling -- one that i wanted to understand because it didn't seem to fit with my progress in R. it doesn't reach down deep enough to touch my real commitment to R. That has always stayed strong.

thanks again for the help. day by day... it's all going in the right direction.


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## Lister

bfree said:


> First calvin, rant away my friend. The only way to purge things is to let them go. I've read a lot of threads on TAM involving a lot of affairs. In almost every one of them when the WS leaves and chooses the AP they go right to them either for the immediate comfort or to try to begin a life together. That didn't happen here. CSS did in fact refuse to stop communicating with him but honestly that's not really that unusual. But when you kicked her out calvin she blew him off instead of going to him. That IS unusual and makes me think that even though her thought process was obviously confused she knew on some level that she did love you and that what the POSOM represented wasn't real. I realize that the things she said were hurtful on many levels but her actions really tell a different story. I'm sorry if I'm dredging up things best left buried but lately I've been trying to understand the viewpoint and thought process of the WS. Maybe I'm still trying to understand what my ex was thinking all those years ago. Who knows why my mind comes up with half the things it does.


Hi BFree, from a WS viewpoint I would agree that it is a huge thing that CSS didn't go to her AP and sends a powerful message. IF SG had thrown me out on the night she discovered the A then I would have gone to the AP for sympathy. Believe it or not I had not prepared for the moment my deception was uncovered despite previous close shaves and so was in a panic. I expected SG to be angry, scream and shout, maybe throw things and thus give me an 'excuse' to flee. Pathetic I know. When she didn't, when she made it clear she wanted me to stay even after what she had discovered it was a huge relief and a massively significant moment. It completely changed how i had come to see SG, I had managed to convince myself that she had stopped caring for me.

Also very true that deep down I knew the relationship with the AP was not real. At first in the A it was all about the things we had in common - similar up-bringing. same work background etc. But i slowly realised that there were also huge differences between us that initially, in the excitement of the A, were ignored. As the A progressed these became more noticeable (e.g. I discovered she was a much more conflictual person than me with other people, we had totally different likes and dislikes re. food). In short early in the A you focus on all the similarities and minimise the differences and then slowly but surely reality kicks in.


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## bfree

Lister said:


> Hi BFree, from a WS viewpoint I would agree that it is a huge thing that CSS didn't go to her AP and sends a powerful message. IF SG had thrown me out on the night she discovered the A then I would have gone to the AP for sympathy. Believe it or not I had not prepared for the moment my deception was uncovered despite previous close shaves and so was in a panic. I expected SG to be angry, scream and shout, maybe throw things and thus give me an 'excuse' to flee. Pathetic I know. When she didn't, when she made it clear she wanted me to stay even after what she had discovered it was a huge relief and a massively significant moment. It completely changed how i had come to see SG, I had managed to convince myself that she had stopped caring for me.
> 
> Also very true that deep down I knew the relationship with the AP was not real. At first in the A it was all about the things we had in common - similar up-bringing. same work background etc. But i slowly realised that there were also huge differences between us that initially, in the excitement of the A, were ignored. As the A progressed these became more noticeable (e.g. I discovered she was a much more conflictual person than me with other people, we had totally different likes and dislikes re. food). In short early in the A you focus on all the similarities and minimise the differences and then slowly but surely reality kicks in.


And Lister, I am betting now you see that in the future these relationships are just an escape from the real issues and problems that all couples face at one point or another. Escaping this does not serve any purpose any more than doing heroin will solve life's little challenges. The problems remain and are compounded by this hiatus from reality. Now you see the problems must be met head on and dealt with even if the treatment is difficult. I truly believe there are no obstacles that cannot be overcome with love and respect.


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## B1

Mr Blunt said:


> Thanks for the update B1
> *Great to hear that Jo-Jo is doing well!!*
> 
> I am also glad that you miss EI. That tells me that you have a strong connection to her and that you have none of that macho macho crap. You know, that crap that tries to put up a front that they do not need their wife. When you have a good woman like you do, then I can see why God said that it is best that He give man a woman. God’s intention was that the woman would be a good woman and EI is a good woman!
> 
> I want to congratulate you and EI for raising 5 children. I raised three and I almost went insane. Ok that was a bit exaggeration. *It may not seem like it to some but raising children and loving them the way I am seeing you and EI loving Jo Jo is a calling of God.* Just because it is not sensational does not mean that it is anything less than a special calling for parents. In fact I bet that was the first calling God gave to man and woman.
> 
> I know that you and EI are suffering but that is when I know that two people are for real and are doing God’s calling. When two people are suffering and they will not quit and then are right beside a child when that child needs them the most, well I can not help but think that God is smiling at B1 and EI. *You are being tested by fire and you both are turning into something better than gold.*
> 
> I am impressed!
> 
> 
> Blunt


You will never really know how the timing of your post helped us last night. stress is high as are emotions. EI and I were fussing a little, more like a heated discussion, and then your post came in during a break in our fussing. EI immediately said "let's not let Satan destroy what we are trying so hard to build" it helped us immensely.

EI is really hurting, really hurting. She is reliving a lot of the horrible things I did to her, didn't do with her, said to her. All the neglect and rejection...All these things she has suppressed, NEVER dealt with, She never felt she had the right to talk about her pain.

So, she now wants to go over her pain and her hurt. This is fine but it gets heated because, well, it hurts her reliving it all.

needless to say we still have a lot to cover in therapy and we are going to have to get another therapist, this current one is done all he can. We don't feel he can do much for us anymore.

I love EI and she loves me, I hate that she's hurting so much...what she did is eating away at her too, it's taking it's own toll on her....a heavy heavy toll. People will say something nice to her, say she's a good mom and she responds in silence.."no I'm not look what I did."

What she did does NOT define her, does not make her a bad mom, person etc. it does not make her overall selfish and mean. 
We ALL mess up, in our lifetime we will ALL make some bad choices, we will ALL need forgiveness. No one lives a perfect life, well except Jesus.

I have to also say something..in the midst of her A I ran out of high blood pressure medicine, a fluke in timing. she takess the same medicine too. she had a few pills left and it would be a few days before I got my refill. She put her pills in my bottle, never told me. She went without hers. She told me about it much later.

That's not a overall mean selfish person. True, what she was doing was a selfish act, but she is far from a selfish mean person. Her nature is to give and give and to care for and never ask for anything in return. I have a feeling many more WS are like this too..human and not evil.


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## bfree

B1 said:


> You will never really know how the timing of your post helped us last night. stress is high as are emotions. EI and I were fussing a little, more like a heated discussion, and then your post came in during a break in our fussing. EI immediately said "let's not let Satan destroy what we are trying so hard to build" it helped us immensely.
> 
> EI is really hurting, really hurting. She is reliving a lot of the horrible things I did to her, didn't do with her, said to her. All the neglect and rejection...All these things she has suppressed, NEVER dealt with, She never felt she had the right to talk about her pain.
> 
> So, she now wants to go over her pain and her hurt. This is fine but it gets heated because, well, it hurts her reliving it all.
> 
> needless to say we still have a lot to cover in therapy and we are going to have to get another therapist, this current one is done all he can. We don't feel he can do much for us anymore.
> 
> I love EI and she loves me, I hate that she's hurting so much...what she did is eating away at her too, it's taking it's own toll on her....a heavy heavy toll. People will say something nice to her, say she's a good mom and she responds in silence.."no I'm not look what I did."
> 
> What she did does NOT define her, does not make her a bad mom, person etc. it does not make her overall selfish and mean.
> We ALL mess up, in our lifetime we will ALL make some bad choices, we will ALL need forgiveness. No one lives a perfect life, well except Jesus.
> 
> I have to also say something..in the midst of her A I ran out of high blood pressure medicine, a fluke in timing. she takess the same medicine too. she had a few pills left and it would be a few days before I got my refill. She put her pills in my bottle, never told me. She went without hers. She told me about it much later.
> 
> That's not a overall mean selfish person. True, what she was doing was a selfish act, but she is far from a selfish mean person. Her nature is to give and give and to care for and never ask for anything in return. I have a feeling many more WS are like this too..human and not evil.


She has a right to address hurts form the past especially since they have probably not been dealt with as much as they should. But more important is this. EI, you must forgive yourself. I do not know you in person other than what I read here. But what I read here includes what you did by having the affair. You know what. I think you're a great mom. I think you're a great person. I think you're a great wife. And I believe the person that knows you best here on planet earth, your husband, knows the same thing. Now, in the face of all that love how can you say you're not wonderful?


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## happyman64

I say many times on TAM that not only do we need to forgive our waywards but we need to forgive ourselves.

As partners in marriage we all have our faults. No one is innocent.

No one.

And many of us with past indiscretions have a much harder time forgiving themselves.

They do the heavy lifting and therefore shoulder more of the burden and guilt.

The key is for us to recognize that burden, recognize those acts of heavy lifting and help them shoulder the burden. Help them forgive themselves as we chose to forgive them.

After all are we not partners whether in marriage or on TAM.

And B1 since You mentioned Jesus I will say I was lucky to get to spend a month in Israel on business. One of my excursions was in Jerusalem where I got to walk the stations of the cross. And I saw how far Christ carried his burden but it was clearly marked that Christ did not share it alone. He had help.

And that is what is great about TAM. 

None of us are alone. And we can all help each other.

Peace.

HM64


----------



## ChangingMe

Good morning, TAMers. Thank you for the uplifting posts this morning. Know that they help others than the ones that they are addressed to. 

Going back to the topic of EI, I have to say that though I haven't known her for long, I have gotten close to her through TAM and many long phone calls, and she is the kindest, most sincere woman I have had been lucky to come across in a long time. She was the first fWW that reached out to me on here, and she has offered me so much support at times when I needed it and had no one else to turn to that could really understand where I was at. Several others of you have reached out to me as well, and I am beyond grateful to you all, but I want to say here how literally blessed I feel to have "met" EI. B1 is very lucky to have her, and we are lucky to have her heart and wisdom here on TAM. 

Ok, enough mushy stuff. 

I'm in a good mood. DD and I had a long, hard talk last night. It is so painful when he opens up and I hear and see the raw hurt and pain that I have put him through. But I do think that these conversations let some of that bleed out, and we tend to be in a better space afterwards each time. And he is considerate and follows the hard talk with some amazing time in the bedroom, so that helps soothe the hurt as well. 

He's out flying with his dad right now, which I know is an amazing thing for him to get to do. Then we're going to his folks for the SuperBowl. I'm making lunch for the kiddos, and then am going to take them to a park. It's a gorgeous day here, sunny with a high of 69. It's a good day.


----------



## calvin

cpacan said:


> Css, this thought of yours is the one half of "you can't always have what you want" and "you don't always want what you can have".
> 
> When I first read it I thought to myself, yes, this one of the feelings I have, but then examined the feeling a bit more and now I don't think it's about this, for me anyway. I think it's more that you fight your a$$ off as a BS, and all this time you wonder if and when it'll happen again.
> 
> This uncertainty manifests itself in awareness about other choices, I think. So maybe both BS and WS should just realize that there are no certainties or guarantees given.


Sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing,this crap does comeback to haunt you no matter how goods things are currently going.
You just cant believe your spouse would do this too you.
I know my R was hard with the POS constantly trying to get in the way,trying to get me to do something too CSS.
Things are way better but in the back of my mind I think why would I want this person who thought it was alright to put me through this nightmare.
Hour by hour.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I know that I could'nt see a life without her.
Sometimes these mixed emotions drive me nuts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> I know that I could'nt see a life without her.
> Sometimes these mixed emotions drive me nuts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, here's a quote from my wife, I have heard it countless times: "I wasn't thinking much about it". Sometimes that statement drives me nuts, other times I think, maybe I shouldn't think too much about it either, and just go where ever my heart takes me.


----------



## calvin

cpacan said:


> Calvin, here's a quote from my wife, I have heard it countless times: "I wasn't thinking much about it". Sometimes that statement drives me nuts, other times I think, maybe I shouldn't think too much about it either, and just go where ever my heart takes me.


Sometimes my heart deceives me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

We're on our way home now! Jo-Jo has never smiled bigger or sat straighter. I can't tell you how much all of your thoughts, prayers and words of encouragement have meant to us. I don't have a lot of family left. Hospital hours can be lonely hours. Reading all of your messages truly helped carry me through those long hours and sleepless nights. 

I wish I had never had cause in my life to join a forum like TAM..... but then I wouldn't have the genuine care and concern of you guys.... and I can't imagine not having the support in my/our life that so many of you have given us. 

I have to say that I have been blessed in some way by each of you. I have to say a special thank you to CM, who has been so generous with her kind words about me. Earlier in the week, B1 went into the office one day at my insistence, but I found myself in ICU, with nothing to eat and no visitors at the time to give me a chance to get anything. I was feeling a bit sorry for myself and she called the gift shop and ordered meal vouchers for me. When breakfast, lunch and dinner was delivered to patients that day, it was delivered to me, as well.

Say what you will, but I think there are some wonderful, kind, generous, caring and unselfish people here, on TAM, WS's included! ;-)

HOME................
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Thats good EI,you guys have been through a lot.
Thinking about your family,prayers to all of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Great news.
Thinking of you all
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Sometimes my heart deceives me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Although it's your heart, I dare to disagree 
Your mind and thoughts deceive you more often.


----------



## calvin

cpacan said:


> Although it's your heart, I dare to disagree
> Your mind and thoughts deceive you more often.


I think youre right about that.Way more good days than bad now.
Sometimes it seems like its got a good bite on me and wont let go.
I do know it will pass.I have no reason to let it mess with me but it does.
Fvck me.
Just want it to go away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Walking Dead marathon is on and I have a few things to do,left my Bears decorations up way to long.
That will help get my mind off of it.
Its not as bad though,whats wrong with me?
Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

Carry on reconcilers - best of luck to you all. 

I'm done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Walking Dead marathon is on and I have a few things to do,left my Bears decorations up way to long.
> That will help get my mind off of it.
> Its not as bad though,whats wrong with me?
> Ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing is wrong with you. And it's your lucky hour: the past isn't here.
Tell me three things to be grateful for this minute.


----------



## calvin

My wife and family.
My parents.
I'm still alive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

old timer said:


> Carry on reconcilers - best of luck to you all.
> 
> I'm done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I'm sorry, OT. Best of luck to you too. . .


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> My wife and family.
> My parents.
> I'm still alive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, concentrate on what is now. If your thoughts are messing with you, distract then. Come on Calvin, you can do this.


----------



## ChangingMe

margrace said:


> i think you are saying that the more open we are to R, the more unguarded we are against those moments.
> 
> and that's how you get that panicked feeling that you need to run away from the minefield.
> 
> but i want to say to the fWSs that, even though feelings are important, it's only a feeling -- one that i wanted to understand because it didn't seem to fit with my progress in R. it doesn't reach down deep enough to touch my real commitment to R. That has always stayed strong.


Thank you for sharing this, margrace. Just as I think we have helped to give you some perspective into the wayward's mind, you too provide insight into the betrayed's. I know, for me, I feel so tied to whatever DD is feeling, and that feeling changes so frequently. Every time I see the anger and resentment coming out strongly, I get so scared that he will call it quits and say enough's enough, he can't do this. But you are right, the feeling passes, and he's still here. He told me in counseling a week ago that it may not look to me like he's trying to R, he's still here and that says a lot. I think he was saying too that, just because I see the anger and painful emotions come out, it doesn't mean that he's changed his mind -it's just all part of this horrible process. 

Thank you again for posting this. It helped me and gave me a bit of peace and understanding.


----------



## calvin

Need to get motivated and get a couple things done.
Motivation is not coming back yet,I was never like this,I was always the go to guy.
Not anymore.
Feeling sorry for myself,need a swift kick in the rear.
I'll get er done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> I know my R was hard with the POS constantly trying to get in the way,trying to get me to do something too CSS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I want to point something out, if I may. I think it's important for you to focus on what is CSS's fault and what is the POSXOM's fault. CSS did things that were hurtful and put your family in jeopardy, but she is not to blame for how the jerk came after you and hounded you for so long. Try to separate the two and don't put that blame on her -he is responsible for his actions, just like we are all responsible for our own. Yes, had she not talked with him, he would not have been in the picture, I get that. But one she cut him off, she no longer had any say in what he did. I hate that he bothered you both for so long, but keep that anger on him instead of putting it on her. And CSS should only carry on her shoulders what she did. 

In my situation, the xOM ran for hills and had no contact with either me or DD after DDay2. Never heard from him again, thankfully. But a couple women from our circle of friends made life ugly, gossiping about the A to people not even in our group, emailing my mom, DD's mom and sister to try to find out more details, and treating the two friends that stuck by me like total sh!t. I hated it, and at first I felt like I had to apologize for how they were acting -but I had no control over that. They are gossipy women, and have shown this in previous circumstances, but this gave them a heyday. It really upset DD, as this whole experience was obviously extremely painful and humiliating for him. He actually emailed one of the women and asked why she was doing this, telling others about the most difficult and embarrassing thing he'd gone through. She said she was sorry, she did it to ask for prayers for him. 

I have a lot that I have to be accountable for. I hurt my husband, broke my marriage vows, sinned against God, jeopardized my children's security, hurt friends, disappointed my parents, disgraced my profession, and the list goes on. I have a lot to make amends for. But I can't take on anyone else's wrongdoing. I have no control over how those women reacted and how they chose to act after they learned of my A.

Hope this makes a little sense. Not sure if it does. My whole point though, Calvin, is, when thoughts about what POSXOM did come up, remind yourself that that was on him, not on CSS.


----------



## calvin

No CM,I get that.
In a way what he said over the phone and text for eight months actually showed CSS what kind of fvcking monster he is,the lies and the threats.
Thats why one day HE will pay for that,not CSS.
POS calling me over and over saying what he did just makes me want him so bad.
How can a husband put up with "I'm coming over to fvck your wife and there is nothing you can do about it" and that was one of the more mild things he said to me.
How could CSS put us all in danger like this???????
I know your going to say she didnt know this.
She should have,for Christ sakes the loser spent six years in prison...I forgot...he was innocent.
I can still hear him laughing over the phone and saying these things.
CSS's fault? Yes.Did she know how he was? I warned her for years.
She never stopped thinking about him.She brought him up always,not me.
I protected her from a preditor.
Sometimes I feel my job is done.
Head hurts today.
I feel they both teamed up to take me down.
CSS said something the other day how he was worried about her losing the house cause I kicked her out and she left,he brought it up,I was being replaced.
Not a good day in my head.Anyone wants to flame me have at it.I dont care.
Time to get some things done and remember CSS loves me and she IS thankfull that I pulled her out of that crap.
I need her to pull a little harder and help me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

old timer said:


> Carry on reconcilers - best of luck to you all.
> 
> I'm done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't really know what to say OT, but I am sorry things are not going well


----------



## old timer

B1 said:


> Don't really know what to say OT, but I am sorry things are not going well


I didn't say things weren't going well. 

Just said I'm done w R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

old timer said:


> Carry on reconcilers - best of luck to you all.
> 
> I'm done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That sounds pretty final...


----------



## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> Anyone wants to flame me have at it.I dont care.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry, Calvin, I'm really not trying to flame you. You hurt, and I get it, and you have a right to. Just trying to suggest something that I thought might help you. I know I don't have all the answers, believe me. I hope you can shake it and enjoy the day.


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> I'm sorry, Calvin, I'm really not trying to flame you. You hurt, and I get it, and you have a right to. Just trying to suggest something that I thought might help you. I know I don't have all the answers, believe me. I hope you can shake it and enjoy the day.


I question myself sometimes but thank God it doesnt last like it used to.
I do need more from CSS but right now I'm looking foward to supper and the Pooper Bowl.
Hope I win some $$$.
I love CSS,and deep down I know thing are going to be good.
I wouldnt be here if they were'nt right?
Sorry if I bumed anyone out.
Future is so bright I gotta wear shades,yes?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wifehademotionalaffair

Reconciliation, to me means letting go of the spouse that cheated, accepting a request for forgiveness from them and learning to love that same person over again in a new relationship...... don't know if it's possible for me yet but that is what it would mean.


----------



## calvin

wifehademotionalaffair said:


> Reconciliation, to me means letting go of the spouse that cheated, accepting a request for forgiveness from them and learning to love that same person over again in a new relationship...... don't know if it's possible for me yet but that is what it would mean.


Yeah,thats what it means Mr.wife.
Hope things go well for you.Hang out here sometimes and you will learn a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

CM way to go on getting EI meals! Good thinking 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

wifehademotionalaffair said:


> Reconciliation, to me means letting go of the spouse that cheated, accepting a request for forgiveness from them and learning to love that same person over again in a new relationship...... don't know if it's possible for me yet but that is what it would mean.


Welcome Mr. Wife, Rookie who posts on here did just that and it's going very well. 

Can you give us a little info on your situation?


----------



## SomedayDig

Reconciliation means I didn't feel uncomfortable with Regret watching that Calvin Klein commercial.

Only because she knew I shot that in my younger days and they've just been waiting to release the footage.


----------



## pidge70

SomedayDig said:


> Reconciliation means I didn't feel uncomfortable with Regret watching that Calvin Klein commercial.
> 
> Only because she knew I shot that in my younger days and they've just been waiting to release the footage.


That was you?.....DAMN! :rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Wel well well what's goin on...think the niners will score more now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Just to make sure y'all know,I'm calvin because thats what Grandma always called me. 
Thought I do think I'd make one hell of an underwear model,CSS get mad when I wear her's.
I dont know why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

old timer said:


> I didn't say things weren't going well.
> 
> Just said I'm done w R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But, that doesn't mean that you have to be done with us. We're still here for you... and you can still be here for us.


----------



## CantSitStill

So glad to hear JoJo is ok..get your rest EI 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Reconciliation means I didn't feel uncomfortable with Regret watching that Calvin Klein commercial.
> 
> Only because she knew I shot that in my younger days and they've just been waiting to release the footage.



_*Is that the one you shot at the campground that time? Hmmm..... let's see if I can dig up THAT old post???*_


----------



## EI

wifehademotionalaffair said:


> Reconciliation, to me means letting go of the spouse that cheated, accepting a request for forgiveness from them and learning to love that same person over again in a new relationship...... don't know if it's possible for me yet but that is what it would mean.


Well, that certainly is a good place to start!


----------



## Mike11

EI and B1 I am happy to hear you left the hospital to go home with JoJo and he is doing well, that is great progress, I will have you in my thoughts and pryers for a speedy recovery

:smthumbup:


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> I didn't say things weren't going well.
> 
> Just said I'm done w R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you are sure you are right, OT, then best of luck to you and go out there and enjoy life. I'm thinking that you had so much fun at the SB and MG that you realize that there is life after marriage, after all.:smthumbup: Keep in touch, pardner.


----------



## Rookie4

wifehademotionalaffair said:


> Reconciliation, to me means letting go of the spouse that cheated, accepting a request for forgiveness from them and learning to love that same person over again in a new relationship...... don't know if it's possible for me yet but that is what it would mean.


Well, this is pretty much what I've done, so yes, it is possible. But only with a truly remorseful WS like Sweetie.


----------



## Rookie4

EI and B1, I'm so glad you and Jo-Jo are home and getting some rest. Take it easy for a while>


----------



## old timer

EI said:


> But, that doesn't mean that you have to be done with us. We're still here for you... and you can still be here for us.


No plans to desert y'all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> If you are sure you are right, OT, then best of luck to you and go out there and enjoy life. I'm thinking that you had so much fun at the SB and MG that you realize that there is life after marriage, after all.:smthumbup: Keep in touch, pardner.


Rookie, it was more of deciding not to be someone's Plan B, than of having a good time (although I did have a blast).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Morning all,already at work,I hate starting this early but at least the overtime is coming back.
Its not easy to suppport a family of four on one paycheck but I've been doing it for years.
We always seem to manage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Morning all,already at work,I hate starting this early but at least the overtime is coming back.
> Its not easy to suppport a family of four on one paycheck but I've been doing it for years.
> We always seem to manage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am also at work calvin -- at least you get paid for the hours you put in. I am not upset being salaried -- just that salaried expectations have seemed to go up in the number of hours you work. Have a good Monday -- and be safe.


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> I am also at work calvin -- at least you get paid for the hours you put in. I am not upset being salaried -- just that salaried expectations have seemed to go up in the number of hours you work. Have a good Monday -- and be safe.


You have a good day too,hope you and the wife are well.
I want to telecomute but my boss says I cant...sigh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

old timer said:


> No plans to desert y'all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i'm glad to hear that you will still be around, OT -- and i'm also happy that you are doing what's right for you. all of us here are trying our hardest (just like you did) hoping for a different outcome with R (just like you were). but people on this thread have also reminded me many times that it takes *two* committed people to make R work... meaning two people who are both committed to plan A and only plan A.

looking forward to hearing where your path takes you now. i have a good feeling about what's ahead


----------



## old timer

margrace said:


> i'm glad to hear that you will still be around, OT---
> 
> looking forward to hearing where your path takes you now. i have a good feeling about what's ahead


Currently, my path is leading back to New Orleans, and Mardis Gras. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Bourbon St is a pretty good path to take, OT. Just don't let any young girl make you her Sugar Daddy!! LOL (Unless , of course , you want to be a Sugar Daddy)


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Morning all,already at work,I hate starting this early but at least the overtime is coming back.
> Its not easy to suppport a family of four on one paycheck but I've been doing it for years.
> We always seem to manage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still haven't started my new job, yet, because of my toes, but I am soooooo glad that I'm back to engineering, instead of being a Production Supervisor. I HATE bossing people around and deciding who works and who doesn't. EVERYBODY needs their paycheck, and being the one who says that so and so has to take the night off, without pay really, really, blows ass. I had several people on my shift that , because of the economy, were having to make do with one paycheck, and I always tried my hardest to make sure that those people worked, even though it really wasn't fair to two paycheck people. It caused a LOT of indigestion to me, that's for sure.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> I still haven't started my new job, yet, because of my toes, but I am soooooo glad that I'm back to engineering, instead of being a Production Supervisor. I HATE bossing people around and deciding who works and who doesn't. EVERYBODY needs their paycheck, and being the one who says that so and so has to take the night off, without pay really, really, blows ass. I had several people on my shift that , because of the economy, were having to make do with one paycheck, and I always tried my hardest to make sure that those people worked, even though it really wasn't fair to two paycheck people. It caused a LOT of indigestion to me, that's for sure.


I was offered the foreman position years ago,no thanks,half of them dont seem to last and they work crazy weird long hours.
I'll stay in the union on straight day shift.
We have a decent bonus program that adds to your hourly rate,the more steel you pump out the more you make,its added to your base rate.
Last week we made $12.75.
You get $12.75 for every hour you work,including overtime.I had 55 hours in last week so 55 x $12.75 on top of your base rate if pretty good.
The idea was for us to police ourselves.
Half of the guys are on board the other half are lazy as hell and they still get the bonus.
That really p!sses me off
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Our shop is Union, but the one I'm going to isn't. I really never had any problems with the Union, on the contrary, they were really good about keeping everybody working and writing up the lazy ones. I'm a Union man, myself.


----------



## calvin

Thats the idea about the bonuses,we have a plant in Canada that I spent the summer at a few years ago.
They have no foremen.The extra money goes to the guys on the shop floor and peer pressure is strong when a goldbricker is taking money away from you and your family.
Doesnt seem to be working as good at my Chicago plant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

This thread has been quiet today.
I hope everyones doing good and life is getting better for all.
Just too many to name. Thats a good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

DD and I are good. Went out for a bit of a date, now we're heading home t ato put the kids in bed and will get in the hot tub. I think it will be a good night. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

We had a good talk
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> DD and I are good. Went out for a bit of a date, now we're heading home t ato put the kids in bed and will get in the hot tub. I think it will be a good night.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good CM,take care of him.He's a good dude and he needs you and your help just like I need CSS.
There is no substitute.
You guys have fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> We had a good talk
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love those.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I love those.


Yeah it was good.
I listened,she listened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

We're settling back in at home. Taking care of Jo-Jo is going to be my full-time job for the next 6 weeks. B1 is off until Thursday but now he isn't feeling well, either. I think at least 2 of my kids are mad at me for some reason........ Just another day in the life, really... Nothing spectacular or interesting to report.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

You'll be ok, the clouds will lift and you will see the sunshine soon...hang in there, good things will come
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

calvin said:


> Yeah it was good.
> I listened,she listened.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Must have been a quiet talk


----------



## Rookie4

All is comfy at the Rookie home. No dramatic events, execpt my dogs seem to be deliberately finding my former toes when they jump on me. It makes me cuss a lot. I'm still being pampered by Sweetie, which is all good.


----------



## old timer

MIL is still hanging in there. Hospice nurse said today her pacemaker can keep her heart going after everything else shuts down. Sad situation. 

She's not suffering, thank God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

All ok here.
H back in work. It's going ok. He's doing everything he can to reassure me. Txts me often during the day and gives me a run down of his day when he gets home.
My Op was cancelled yesterday. Rescheduled for next week. Good ole NHS. Never mind. I've booked 2 days of work so just going to relax.

I'm feeling tired! I feel like I've had a bit of a melt down! Does anyone else feel like that at times? I just think all the stress and worry of the last 2 years have just caught up with me and my body and mind have shut down! I don't think I'm depressed. Just worm out! I've turned into a bit of a scatter brain too. Just forgetting things and having periods of time when I just sit and do nothing. I feel like I need to pull my self together but some day I just don't have the energy.

It's half term hols next week. I might call to the doctors and get some blood tests done. I've had an iron deficiency in the past so maybe that's it.

Hope you are all in a good place today my friends.
Take care
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> All ok here.
> H back in work. It's going ok. He's doing everything he can to reassure me. Txts me often during the day and gives me a run down of his day when he gets home.
> My Op was cancelled yesterday. Rescheduled for next week. Good ole NHS. Never mind. I've booked 2 days of work so just going to relax.
> 
> I'm feeling tired! I feel like I've had a bit of a melt down! Does anyone else feel like that at times? I just think all the stress and worry of the last 2 years have just caught up with me and my body and mind have shut down! I don't think I'm depressed. Just worm out! I've turned into a bit of a scatter brain too. Just forgetting things and having periods of time when I just sit and do nothing. I feel like I need to pull my self together but some day I just don't have the energy.
> 
> It's half term hols next week. I might call to the doctors and get some blood tests done. I've had an iron deficiency in the past so maybe that's it.
> 
> Hope you are all in a good place today my friends.
> Take care
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG, nice to hear that your H return to work is going OK. 

I think it's normal to feel worn out after working on accept and forgiveness for so long. I know I do to, some days I just want everything to stop simply because I feel mentally worn out, tired, just wanna let it all go because the brain is simply filled up with emotional garbage.

I usually get up on my feet by directing my full attention on this particular moment and force myself to think about all the things I am gratefull for right now.

Worth a try?


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> All ok here.
> H back in work. It's going ok. He's doing everything he can to reassure me. Txts me often during the day and gives me a run down of his day when he gets home.
> My Op was cancelled yesterday. Rescheduled for next week. Good ole NHS. Never mind. I've booked 2 days of work so just going to relax.
> 
> I'm feeling tired! I feel like I've had a bit of a melt down! Does anyone else feel like that at times? I just think all the stress and worry of the last 2 years have just caught up with me and my body and mind have shut down! I don't think I'm depressed. Just worm out! I've turned into a bit of a scatter brain too. Just forgetting things and having periods of time when I just sit and do nothing. I feel like I need to pull my self together but some day I just don't have the energy.
> 
> It's half term hols next week. I might call to the doctors and get some blood tests done. I've had an iron deficiency in the past so maybe that's it.
> 
> Hope you are all in a good place today my friends.
> Take care
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i know what exactly you mean. i never got how people could just plain forget all about appointments that they had made and things like that... and now i'm one of those people. i have MANY TIMES completely forgotten about things that i was supposed to do until someone called me from the meeting or whatever and said, hi, we're all here waiting for you. 

it feels like those bad dreams where you get to school and everyone has already started the exam that you didn't know you were having -- only in real life, over and over again. i write myself notes about everything. i hope i get my mind fully back one of these days.

on the good side, it has made me much slower to judge other people. now when someone that i work with seems forgetful or scatterbrained, i think to myself, well, s/he could be going through something....


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

I had SO wished we (WW and me) would be a success story on here. I wanted to prove everybody wrong.


----------



## cpacan

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I had SO wished we (WW and me) would be a success story on here. I wanted to prove everybody wrong.


Sorry HSE; maybe you will and maybe you won't. The important thing is, that you're happy.

Any development?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

cpacan said:


> Sorry HSE; maybe you will and maybe you won't. The important thing is, that you're happy.
> 
> Any development?


That's nice of you to say.

The development is happening with me. Strengthening myself in so many little ways, getting my own life back, not living for my relationship with her. Pursuing the stuff that makes me complete. Making new friends. 

Bobka is going through a growth spurt. Funny, at 56, that this would be happening. And perhaps I'll look back on this time and say "well, maybe that's what it took to get 'me' back."


----------



## happyman64

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I had SO wished we (WW and me) would be a success story on here. I wanted to prove everybody wrong.


You have nothing to prove to us , only yourself.

And what do you have to prove to yourself??? That you will be capable of being happy and living a full life with her or without her.

Now stop asking will it ever be as good as it was in the past and go make it so.......


With. Or without her. Remember, the choice is yours.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

happyman64 said:


> You have nothing to prove to us , only yourself.
> 
> And what do you have to prove to yourself??? That you will be capable of being happy and living a full life with her or without her.
> 
> Now stop asking will it ever be as good as it was in the past and go make it so.......
> 
> With. Or without her. Remember, the choice is yours.


Oh, yeah, I agree with you, HM - the past is no longer my benchmark for a happy life. There is so much more ahead.


----------



## B1

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I had SO wished we (WW and me) would be a success story on here. I wanted to prove everybody wrong.


You can still be a success story HSE, it's about you being happy, finding yourself. I think I can speak for the masses, seeing you happy is what we want to see and hope for.

Whether it's with your wife or not, we want you to be healthy and happy. Don't set out to prove us right or wrong, set out to prove you can move forward, make a stand for you and be happy. It sounds like your on the road to doing just that.


----------



## old timer

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I had SO wished we (WW and me) would be a success story on here. I wanted to prove everybody wrong.


Same here, my friend. I think both you and I had to finally accept that R is simply not possible when only one person is trying. 

I hate that detachment from my W had to happen, but it's the only way we can move on under the circumstances. 

I've been hitting the gym (and on the cute girls), spending time w family and friends, and just enjoying every new day the good Lord gives me. 

Life is good in OT land.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Things are fine with pidge and I. She was so worried that the 49ers loss would put me in a foul mood. I'll tell ya, after all the crap we have been through a football game is not important.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

joe kidd said:


> Things are fine with pidge and I. She was so worried that the 49ers loss would put me in a foul mood. I'll tell ya, after all the crap we have been through a football game is not important.


I could not POSSIBLY agree with you more. Don't sweat the small stuff. And it's mostly ALL small stuff. You go, Joe!


----------



## ChangingMe

I'm sorry, Bobka, that things aren't going the way you want them to, but it ain't over till it's over, right?


----------



## ChangingMe

Life is good in my world today, but it already has me worried. 

DD's on a new antidepressant that started off at 10 mg for a week, then goes to 20 for a week, then 40. He was ok on the 10, went up to the 20 for 3 days, and basically started hallucinating, having terrible dreams, and a lot of difficulty sleeping. 

I asked him to go see a psychiatrist to get his prescription adjusted, instead of getting meds from the nurse practitioner he's been using, but he says he is just cutting the 20 mg pills in half, and is going to wean off these and be done with pills. 

So I feel like I have another good week or so with him, and then the anger, rage, and depression will return when the extra serotonin is out of his system, and we will be back to that side of things. 

I don't want or think he needs to be on meds forever, but they really help to stabilize him right now. I wish the side effects weren't so terrible for him. It's tough. 

I guess I will just enjoy what I have right now and pray that the gradual weaning will keep him from plummeting.


----------



## TCSRedhead

I'm so sorry to hear that Bobka. 

We keep on keeping on these days. Most days are good, some not so good. All the work travel doesn't help (I've spent 10 days away from BH over the last 21 with 2 more days away this week). 

I'm really hoping that things at work end up leading to less travel. I hate being away from home.

This is the original thread I posted with our story: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/58497-thoughts-about-password-sharing.html


----------



## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Oh, yeah, I agree with you, HM - the past is no longer my benchmark for a happy life. There is so much more ahead.


This needs to be your attitude.

I am Bobka. I am going to live my life the way I choose and in a way that benefits me. If my wife decides to come along and I choose to invite her into my life then it is because I wish it. If she does not want to be in my life or I don't want her in my life then she will remain behind as I go forward.

And remember there are no sidecars on your motorcycle. Its only built for two!


----------



## bfree

joe kidd said:


> Things are fine with pidge and I. She was so worried that the 49ers loss would put me in a foul mood. I'll tell ya, after all the crap we have been through a football game is not important.


I was impressed with that SF team. They have a ton of talented young players. They'll be back again and probably many times. And I really like that QB. They need a new kicker though.


----------



## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> Life is good in my world today, but it already has me worried.
> 
> DD's on a new antidepressant that started off at 10 mg for a week, then goes to 20 for a week, then 40. He was ok on the 10, went up to the 20 for 3 days, and basically started hallucinating, having terrible dreams, and a lot of difficulty sleeping.
> 
> I asked him to go see a psychiatrist to get his prescription adjusted, instead of getting meds from the nurse practitioner he's been using, but he says he is just cutting the 20 mg pills in half, and is going to wean off these and be done with pills.
> 
> So I feel like I have another good week or so with him, and then the anger, rage, and depression will return when the extra serotonin is out of his system, and we will be back to that side of things.
> 
> I don't want or think he needs to be on meds forever, but they really help to stabilize him right now. I wish the side effects weren't so terrible for him. It's tough.
> 
> I guess I will just enjoy what I have right now and pray that the gradual weaning will keep him from plummeting.


Can I offer a different perspective. Maybe DD needs to go through some emotional purging to get it out of his system. Maybe he needs to come to terms with everything and find ways to channel his emotions better. I know after my divorce I started to hit the heavy bag a lot. I found it was hard to be angry when I was exhausted and couldn't lift my arms. If DD can find a way to work through this without meds maybe he can reach a level of acceptance and build from there.


----------



## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> If DD can find a way to work through this without meds maybe he can reach a level of acceptance and build from there.


This is what I'm really hoping. The struggle is when it comes out as depression, and he can barely get out of bed, let alone exercise. We'll just have to see what happens when he weans off and how he is. I'm hoping that, since he's not going cold turkey like he has in the past, the mood changes won't be as strong. 

I know that ultimately he would have to come off meds eventually, and he would have to learn to cope without them, but I was hoping it would still be a few more months down the line, giving him more time to learn healthier ways of coping. We'll see how it goes though, and, as I said, I'm just going to enjoy things while they are good and not stress too much right now.


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> Life is good in my world today, but it already has me worried.
> 
> DD's on a new antidepressant that started off at 10 mg for a week, then goes to 20 for a week, then 40. He was ok on the 10, went up to the 20 for 3 days, and basically started hallucinating, having terrible dreams, and a lot of difficulty sleeping.
> 
> I asked him to go see a psychiatrist to get his prescription adjusted, instead of getting meds from the nurse practitioner he's been using, but he says he is just cutting the 20 mg pills in half, and is going to wean off these and be done with pills.
> 
> So I feel like I have another good week or so with him, and then the anger, rage, and depression will return when the extra serotonin is out of his system, and we will be back to that side of things.
> 
> I don't want or think he needs to be on meds forever, but they really help to stabilize him right now. I wish the side effects weren't so terrible for him. It's tough.
> 
> I guess I will just enjoy what I have right now and pray that the gradual weaning will keep him from plummeting.


Sounds like you are over-worrying. I was on zoloft and I will never take seratonin drugs again..I like him weened off on my own. It seems like the seratonin gets really outa whack with those meds. He'll be fine 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I stopped taking mine after a week,I had a hard time "performing",I read about side effects that said it was possible but my doctor told me it wouldnt reduce my drive.
It might have been all in my head and even if it was I still just quit taking the Zoloft.
I'm further along than DD and I think I have been doing much better.
I pray you and DD get closer everyday CM,I really do.
At night I pray for my parents,my family,a few other things and I pray for the people that me and CSS talk to on Tams.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> I started to hit the heavy bag a lot.


Probably one of the BEST investments I ever made. That heavy bag just keeps on taking it and doesn't complain one bit!



calvin said:


> I stopped taking mine after a week,I had a hard time "performing",I read about side effects that said it was possible but my doctor told me it wouldnt reduce my drive.


I got put on Welbutrin after going through 2 other scripts that totally screwed (no pun intended cuz there was none...) up my performance. I had what they called "delayed ejaculation". Sounds like a good deal, but it certainly was NOT!

The other thing was the first 2 scripts also drowned my pain too much. I really didn't care too much about anything. The Welbutrin is just enough to cut the edge but still feel the effects of Regret's affair.

That said...everything is going pretty well around the Dig household. I even started a new blog which has been pretty cool to write about things to possibly help people deal with affairs. (I put it in my sig line)


----------



## calvin

I have a lot of good days,sitting here talking to CSS,shooting the sh!t,just talikng.
Looking at her thinking how much I love her and how good she looks.
Out of nowhere I remember.
Sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Sucks? : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

So, I had a little trip to the ER today. I've had a headache for 5 days. I now have an arachnoid cyst in my right middle cranial fossa. Not sure what that means but, guess I will find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

pidge70 said:


> So, I had a little trip to the ER today. I've had a headache for 5 days. I now have an arachnoid cyst in my right middle cranial fossa. Not sure what that means but, guess I will find out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Geeeezzz Pidge. I am saying a prayer for you that you catch a break sooner rather than later.


----------



## pidge70

happyman64 said:


> Geeeezzz Pidge. I am saying a prayer for you that you catch a break sooner rather than later.


Thanks HM. I swear, my brain hates me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Bobka
> The development is happening with me. Strengthening myself in so many little ways, getting my own life back, not living for my relationship with her. Pursuing the stuff that makes me complete. Making new friends.


You can only change you. 

I know you are in pain but you will be in pain by doing nothing or by improving yourself. Glad to hear that you are *“Pursuing the stuff that makes me complete”*

If you want keep us informed. My guess is that you will be a lot better after you have been working your new goal for a while.


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Probably one of the BEST investments I ever made. That heavy bag just keeps on taking it and doesn't complain one bit!
> 
> 
> 
> I got put on Welbutrin after going through 2 other scripts that totally screwed (no pun intended cuz there was none...) up my performance. I had what they called "delayed ejaculation". Sounds like a good deal, but it certainly was NOT!
> 
> The other thing was the first 2 scripts also drowned my pain too much. I really didn't care too much about anything. The Welbutrin is just enough to cut the edge but still feel the effects of Regret's affair.
> 
> That said...everything is going pretty well around the Dig household. I even started a new blog which has been pretty cool to write about things to possibly help people deal with affairs. (I put it in my sig line)


No drugs for the Rookie, except Bourbon or Scotch. 4 Roses Single Barrel, Talisker, or George ****el are all the drugs I wanted or needed. OK, and maybe a Doobie or two. LOL. I'm too afraid of the side effects of some of the modern meds, to be comfortable taking them.


----------



## Rookie4

After feeling sorry for myself for a couple of months, I turned part of my garage into a gym and put up a heavy and a speed bag, weights and a treadmill. I got back into softball, and learned to cross-country ski. I'm in better shape than I've been in years. I hunt and flyfish and TRIED golf, but I don't have the patience for it. I actually got pretty good (upper 40's) but took some time off to play softball and when I went back to the golf, was ROTTEN. I learned that you HAVE to keep in practice to be any good. It pissed me off so bad that I sold my clubs.


----------



## margrace

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> That's nice of you to say.
> 
> The development is happening with me. Strengthening myself in so many little ways, getting my own life back, not living for my relationship with her. Pursuing the stuff that makes me complete. Making new friends.
> 
> Bobka is going through a growth spurt. Funny, at 56, that this would be happening. And perhaps I'll look back on this time and say "well, maybe that's what it took to get 'me' back."


good for you, hse!!! 

and 56 is the *perfect* age for a growth spurt! you're old enough to know who you are (as much as any of us can know that ) and old enough to appreciate friends and family and beautiful moments and how time is passing -- but also still young enough to go after those things that complete you.

keep us posted about what you find....


----------



## calvin

Morning all,prayers coming your way pidge.
Hope everyone has a good day,I know I'm gonna judging by the text I read this morning from CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> This is what I'm really hoping. The struggle is when it comes out as depression, and he can barely get out of bed, let alone exercise. We'll just have to see what happens when he weans off and how he is. I'm hoping that, since he's not going cold turkey like he has in the past, the mood changes won't be as strong.
> 
> I know that ultimately he would have to come off meds eventually, and he would have to learn to cope without them, but I was hoping it would still be a few more months down the line, giving him more time to learn healthier ways of coping. We'll see how it goes though, and, as I said, I'm just going to enjoy things while they are good and not stress too much right now.


i'm feeling for you, CM and DD, and i definitely get the wish to come off the meds!

the side effects that some people get are so tough -- it's like the cure can be worse than the illness.

on the other hand, when you find a medication that works for you, sometimes it's because it's filling in a missing link in your system -- which can a good thing, so why not let it work for you for a while if the side effects aren't too bad? like if you are diabetic, you take insulin because your system isn't producing enough on its own. your health improves because you are replacing it, so you aren't necessarily looking for the quickest way to stop taking it (although of course you would rather not need it to begin with).

everyone has to weigh out the the symptoms that they have when they stop the med vs. the side effects that they have (if any) when they take it.

just want to support anyone who's getting some good help from their meds


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

bfree said:


> This needs to be your attitude.
> 
> I am Bobka. I am going to live my life the way I choose and in a way that benefits me. If my wife decides to come along and I choose to invite her into my life then it is because I wish it. If she does not want to be in my life or I don't want her in my life then she will remain behind as I go forward.
> 
> And remember there are no sidecars on your motorcycle. Its only built for two!


I am Bobka - hear me roar! 

Yes, bfree, this is exactly where I'm at. Thanks for your encouragement. It's not hard any more. It's a resignation to deal with my own stuff, and as you say, if she wants to come along, great.

I have to admit, it's getting better, a little better all the time.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

margrace said:


> the side effects that some people get are so tough -- it's like the cure can be worse than the illness.
> 
> on the other hand, when you find a medication that works for you, sometimes it's because it's filling in a missing link in your system -- which can a good thing, so why not let it work for you for a while if the side effects aren't too bad? like if you are diabetic, you take insulin because your system isn't producing enough on its own. your health improves because you are replacing it, so you aren't necessarily looking for the quickest way to stop taking it (although of course you would rather not need it to begin with).
> 
> everyone has to weigh out the the symptoms that they have when they stop the med vs. the side effects that they have (if any) when they take it.
> 
> just want to support anyone who's getting some good help from their meds


What she said! :iagree:

It's really difficult, the same kind of difficult as some of you guys feel when you see the way I'm running my "show", and "know" what's the right thing to do, and advise me against how I'm dealing with things, to watch those of you dealing with meds.

This is what I know, from vast experience: If you run from your meds because of an "uncomfortable" side effect or two, you are _undermining_ your treatment. Period. Yes, if the meds make you sick, or hallucinate, as with DD, then, yes, adjustments have to be made. But is it more important, okay, Calvin, to have hot sex every night, or to heal a relationship that is MUCH more than sex? We have to think long-term, here, people. I think CM would agree with me to a great degree - she's in the business.

So there's my flame. If you're supposed to be on meds, for God's sake, give them a chance to help you.


----------



## calvin

Getting physical with CSS is important to me and its not just to get my rocks off,it makes me feel close to her and if Zoloft is going to take that away then no thanks.
I'm a year out and yes it still bothers me,not as bad as it used too but its still there.
If the physical side of our relationship is going to die then the Zoloft is doing more harm than good in my eyes.
Sex is its own medicine,gets rid of stress,puts me in a better mood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I agree Calvin. My doctor who prescribed my meds knows of Regret's and my situation and has been a family doc for about 8 years, so he has a personal connection to us. He was very involved in figuring out which med would be best. I mean, like literally changing the script within a week of prescribing it because he knows the importance sex had in the beginning of our reconciliation.

Hell...it STILL is! Which is awesome!!


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> I agree Calvin. My doctor who prescribed my meds knows of Regret's and my situation and has been a family doc for about 8 years, so he has a personal connection to us. He was very involved in figuring out which med would be best. I mean, like literally changing the script within a week of prescribing it because he knows the importance sex had in the beginning of our reconciliation.
> 
> Hell...it STILL is! Which is awesome!!


Yes,it really is a need for me.
In the past CSS was a lot more reserved than she is now,even with hugs and cuddling.
Her family never hugged or said I love you to one another so she never really cared to get close much.
Ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Yes, when you are trying to reclaim a relationship sex is extremely important. In other words.....SHAG HER SILLY!


----------



## SomedayDig

Calvin, my family was much the same. Well, my mother and step-father (if that's what one would call the prick) never hugged or said I love you. I loved my Ma. I always had.

Unfortunately, I never really told her that until a few days before she died. But I told her.

Hug her more, now. Kiss her when she's not expecting it. I know she's not holding back as much with you now...but I'd say it would still be a bit of a turn on surprise to her. I know it's tough, man. Sometimes, I look at Regret and wonder "How in the F could you do this to me?"

Then. I go hug her.


----------



## calvin

She gave me a nice text last night that I read this morning,at around seven today she sent a text saying good morning,I texted back.
I havent heard back from her,has me triggering now.
I know she looked foward to the POS text and she never would go back to bed or ignore him.
Now I cant help but wonder....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

There is no wondering any more. I hope I don't sound like too much of a d-bag, but that's your f'ng ego talking. The part of you that was so badly beaten and bruised by her EA that you sometimes just can't let it go. It somehow satisfies you...it validates your feelings.

I go there, too.

And I am slowly letting it go.


----------



## CantSitStill

OMG I have been texting you all morning!!!!! i thought u were ignoring me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I havent gotten any response from you yet this mornuing so ive been sitting here all bummed out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Honey did you get that text?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

uggggg!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Honey did you get that text?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Been texting you...nothing back
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

same here...no text from you at all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

wtf iss going on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

CantSitStill said:


> wtf iss going on?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Y'all remember how to dial a number?

These things are called telephones for a reason


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I could try to call him but he cant hear at work
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Ok,big screw up.I'm getting your text but your not getting mine.
My imagination got the best of me and I started wondering if she was texting POS and ignoring me,it did happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

why am i not getting any text from u...my last text from you was at 4 something yesterday
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

idk
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

im confused, are you texting the wrong person?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

AT&T must be messed up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

are all of your sent text in your outbox...maybe bad signal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Got em,take yoiur battery out for awhile
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Well we both thought the other was mad and now i am mad at at&t!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

got some of them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Did you get my text just now? I still have nothing from you...took my battery out still nothing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> AT&T must be messed up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have AT&T also and texts between me and the Mrs have been screwed up all day.


----------



## calvin

God,we both thought eachother.
Me and Kenny can text back and forth,he doesnt have at&t
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

so yours is messed up too befree?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Chinese hackers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> so yours is messed up too befree?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, all day. I just got a text my wife sent at 6:30 AM and my boss just replied to a text I sent at 7:17 AM this morning. They have major problems today.

BTW, my boss doesn't have AT&T either so I'm wondering if its just AT&T or a more serious and widespread problem.


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Chinese hackers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oooo, I like that. Conspiracies are fun!


----------



## calvin

Cant really talk on the phone,got ear plugs in,the mill is just too loud.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Well,at least I learned a lesson,I wont freak next time she isnt answering,had all kinds of crap running through my head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lister

calvin said:


> Cant really talk on the phone,got ear plugs in,the mill is just too loud.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bring back the Carrier pigeon!


----------



## calvin

Lister said:


> Bring back the Carrier pigeon!


I'm telling ya,got a couple rats running around the mill,try one of them. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

wow just now got a bunch of texts from Calvinn in a row
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> ...I hunt and flyfish and TRIED golf, but I don't have the patience for it. I actually got pretty good (upper 40's) but took some time off to play softball and when I went back to the golf, was ROTTEN. *I learned that you HAVE to keep in practice to be any good*. It pissed me off so bad that I sold my clubs.


Love, as a verb, require practice. Let's train those lazy muscles.


----------



## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> So, I had a little trip to the ER today. I've had a headache for 5 days. I now have an arachnoid cyst in my right middle cranial fossa. Not sure what that means but, guess I will find out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh Pidge I hope it's nothing bad. I'll be praying
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

pidge70 said:


> So, I had a little trip to the ER today. I've had a headache for 5 days. I now have an arachnoid cyst in my right middle cranial fossa. Not sure what that means but, guess I will find out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang in Pidge. Thinking positive thoughts for you!,


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all! Things are relatively level in the Mathias household. Matt still struggles daily with anger and thoughts of the affair, but I try to engage him in conversation and show my love each day. Lately, he hasn't felt like talking to me about it - he doesn't want to "get started". I'm not sure how to handle that except respect his wishes. I often feel anxious that if we don't talk about it, like it will bottle up and become a worse experience because it was delayed.

Today we had a tough conversation. A current student came to my office and told me he was attracted to me and didn't know how to handle it. I explained that it was important to recognize those feelings but NOT act on them. That we needed to maintain a professional relationship as teacher/student, and he needed to monitor his actions and words to make sure he maintained that boundary from his side. I told Matt about it right away when we got in the car tonight, but he is really struggling with it. I don't know if this student knows of my infidelity, he is new this year and not strongly acquainted with the circle that knows OM. Matt wonders why students say and do these things to me but not him. He also wonders if I am "worth it", having to worry about which student will approach me next. I tried to discuss with him the factors that made me able to rationalize/compartmentalize/engage in the affair and how those factors are NOT present in my life anymore because I am maintaining better communication and engagement with him. I know it's tough on him that we have these contracts to finish, but I am actively looking for and applying for other jobs, and have been sending suggestions to him too. I have an offer on the table from the company I direct for, but I'm not sure Matt wants to move with me to a city farther from our families, specifically his. I doubt he wants to chance a new environment where I am his only "friend". So I guess it becomes a weighing game between getting away from this environment and its triggers, and staying somewhere near a support system. It's hard to know what's right/best.

We had a birthday party for our son on Sunday, Matt made a wonderful cake shaped like a train. Our son was delighted! It's just another moment that makes me so aware of how incredibly stupid and selfish my actions were and what I have damaged and risked. I have a therapy session tomorrow, and have some homework to work on tonight for it. My therapist is trying to help me work on the process of self-forgiveness, and gave me some worksheets to mount a mock "defense" for my crimes (in my mind). How can I possibly defend the horrible, horrible things I've done? I don't think there is any reasonable defense for my affair. I guess I can try to look at it and defend myself now with the changes that I've been making - sort of like applying for parole... I don't know. It's hard to not just feel like a pathetic waste of human tissue when I look at all that I've done to Matt and our son. But I keep trying to move forward from that and make something out of the shambles of myself.

Thinking of everyone here and so grateful as always to read anything positive in our world.


----------



## Rookie4

Led Zeppelin- Communication Breakdown - YouTube For CSS and Calvin.


----------



## Rookie4

MM, This was a serious issue with Sweetie , as well. She positively refused to make excuses for her actions or to blame our marriage situation for her affair. But your idea about the "parole" is a good one. Sweetie uses the same kind of idea. She won't defend her past actions but shows by her present actions that she is becoming a better person, which is helping her let go of the past and improve her self-image. 
BTW, you telling your husband about the student was spot on. But you need not have had any conversation with the student , at all. Explaining the inappropriateness of his conduct isn't your province, and should be beyond your new boundaries. You should have refused to discus it and shown him forcefully to the door, with threats of repercussions if he ever attempted to do anything like this again. Your reputation as a "hot teacher' will become common knowledge, and for your marriage's sake and your own peace of mind , you need to nip it in the bud. If that takes aggresiveness or rudeness, then that is all to the good.. Unfortunately, understanding and compassion in a person in your situation is very likely to be mis-construed as acceptance, by infatuated younger people.
Think of it this way. If this had been a man of your own age, what would you have done? You would have been outraged. So why is it different because it is a student? You really need to work on your boundaries. These student boys aren't puppies, they are testosterone-filled young menand are fully aware of your reputation, and know exactly what they are doing and what they want.
I'm not saying this to be cruel. I remember when we had a teacher who had an affair . We hit on her constantly, and she was always saying no, but it made little difference, we still tried , until she contacted the administration and legal action was threatened. You need to act decisively.


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## B1

Pidge,
Please keep us posted, prayers your way...


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## B1

Mrs. M, What A horrible trigger for Mr. M!
I'm with Rookie on this. I also think that student is aware of your A, which, unfortunately, means most others there are too. Time to get out of dodge ASAP.

Also, not sure who you could report it too, but I would definitely notify someone. This student could take offense to being rejected and could cause trouble for you, not likely but he could. More than likely he was just fishing and that's it, he will move on. Others may follow and perhaps you should tell them along with setting them straight that you are reporting it to HR or whoever you would report things like this to.

What a pain to deal with though, sorry.


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## Acabado

B1 said:


> Mrs. M, What A horrible trigger for Mr. M!
> I'm with Rookie on this. I also think that student is aware of your A, which, unfortunately, means most others there are too. Time to get out of dodge ASAP.
> 
> Also, not sure who you could report it too, but I would definitely notify someone. This student could take offense to being rejected and could cause trouble for you, not likely but he could. More than likely he was just fishing and that's it, he will move on. Others may follow and perhaps you should tell them along with setting them straight that you are reporting it to HR or whoever you would report things like this to.
> 
> What a pain to deal with though, sorry.


Talk to Matt, ask him how you - as a team - manage this if he wants to take any action.
Horrible, horrible trigger. Reach out Matt, try, respect his wishes tough.
I also imagine you are also having a hard time wondering whether your affair is common acknowlege among students. I'm sorry about it. sometimes ramiofications go farther than we can start imagining. Hang tough


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

pidge70 said:


> So, I had a little trip to the ER today. I've had a headache for 5 days. I now have an arachnoid cyst in my right middle cranial fossa. Not sure what that means but, guess I will find out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did a little research:

Arachnoid cysts in the middle cranial fossa: cause and treatment of progressive and non-progressive symptoms. -- van der Meché and Braakman 46 (12): 1102 -- Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery & Psychiatry

Case report: Middle cranial fossa arachnoid cyst in association with subdural hygroma Goswami P, Medhi N, Sarma PK, Sarmah BJ - Indian J Radiol Imaging

Praying for you, Pidge.


----------



## pidge70

B1 said:


> Pidge,
> Please keep us posted, prayers your way...


Thanks B1. I appreciate it.


----------



## pidge70

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Did a little research:
> 
> Arachnoid cysts in the middle cranial fossa: cause and treatment of progressive and non-progressive symptoms. -- van der Meché and Braakman 46 (12): 1102 -- Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery & Psychiatry
> 
> Case report: Middle cranial fossa arachnoid cyst in association with subdural hygroma Goswami P, Medhi N, Sarma PK, Sarmah BJ - Indian J Radiol Imaging
> 
> Praying for you, Pidge.


Thank you sir. I did a little research myself. Apparently it is 4 times more likely to occur in males....yay me. Also, it was most likely caused by my craniotomy to remove the subdural hematoma. I need to make an appointment with a new neurologist. Just been putting it off. Apparently I am looking at a lifetime of headaches. So glad I had this damn surgery now.


----------



## CantSitStill

ouch Pigde ouch! And another surgury is another ouch! and scary ..I've been praying and will continue to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

CantSitStill said:


> ouch Pigde ouch! And another surgury is another ouch! and scary ..I've been praying and will continue to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Would we had another scary picture?


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## pidge70

Acabado said:


> Would we had another scary picture?


Lmao! Hopefully I won't need another surgery. Not really wanting anyone to cut into my brain.


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## EI

Pidge, I am so sorry. B1 and I will add this to our prayer list. You, Joe and your daughter were already on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Thanks EI.


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## EI

Okay, silly question. I ran out to do a few errands today since B1 worked from home and I haven't really gotten out since well before Jo-Jo's surgery. Right before I left the house, B1 said that I was going to turn heads. I didn't think I looked or felt like I was going to be turning any heads today. Sooooo, I'm at Walmart (the place where everyone goes to get picked up, right?) and I'm looking at sterile dressings so that I could change the dressing on Jo-Jo's incision. There was an older gentlemen in the same aisle, about 3-4 feet away, looking at bandaids. He was at least 20 years older than me, meaning he is plenty old enough to be a member of the AARP and draw social security, too. He commented that he was having trouble finding what he was looking for. I just smiled. 

After a minute or two he and I had both made our selections. He said, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but you smell good." I smiled, laughed and said "well, thank you." Now, I wasn't wearing any perfume and I hadn't just gotten out of the bathtub, so it could only have been my hair spray or makeup that he was smelling and I don't think he was standing close enough to smell my hair or makeup. B1 said that the man was flirting and I said he was just an old guy being nice. He said that he might have said that I smell good, but he really meant, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but let's go to my car and #%€"

Do y'all think the old guy was coming on to me or just being friendly?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Okay, silly question. I ran out to do a few errands today since B1 worked from home and I haven't really gotten out since well before Jo-Jo's surgery. Right before I left the house, B1 said that I was going to turn heads. I didn't think I looked or felt like I was going to be turning any heads today. Sooooo, I'm at Walmart (the place where everyone goes to get picked up, right?) and I'm looking at sterile dressings so that I could change the dressing on Jo-Jo's incision. There was an older gentlemen in the same aisle, about 3-4 feet away, looking at bandaids. He was at least 20 years older than me, meaning he is plenty old enough to be a member of the AARP and draw social security, too. He commented that he was having trouble finding what he was looking for. I just smiled.
> 
> After a minute or two he and I had both made our selections. He said, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but you smell good." I smiled, laughed and said "well, thank you." Now, I wasn't wearing any perfume and I hadn't just gotten out of the bathtub, so it could only have been my hair spray or makeup that he was smelling and I don't think he was standing close enough to smell my hair or makeup. B1 said that the man was flirting and I said he was just an old guy being nice. He said that he might have said that I smell good, but he really meant, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but let's go to my car and #%€"
> 
> Do y'all think the old guy was coming on to me or just being friendly?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He was an old dude who saw a pretty girl and if he could get a response from you it would make him feel good I think.
I remember my uncles complementing younger pretty women and if the girl said that was sweet of them it made their day.
It seems innocent enough.
I saw your pic EI,me and CSS agree you purty!
Dont hit me too hard B1!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Awww...... thanks Calvin! So, was a smile, a laugh and a "well, thank you" an appropriate response? I gotta say, I love old men..... especially veterans. They remind me of my Daddy. He could be very complimentary, but never inappropriate. My father was such a gentlemen. Did I say, I love old men? LOL Old men and puppies..... <3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

You did right EI.
You made an old guys day and put a smile on his face and your reply was polite and short.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> *By EI*After a minute or two he and I had both made our selections. He said, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but you smell good." I smiled, laughed and said "well, thank you." Now, I wasn't wearing any perfume and I hadn't just gotten out of the bathtub, so it could only have been my hair spray or makeup that he was smelling and I don't think he was standing close enough to smell my hair or makeup. B1 said that the man was flirting and I said he was just an old guy being nice. He said that he might have said that I smell good, but he really meant, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but let's go to my car and #%€"
> 
> Do y'all think the old guy was coming on to me or just being friendly?






> *By EI*
> B1 said that the man was flirting and I said he was just an old guy being nice. He said that he might have said that I smell good, but he really meant, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but let's go to my car and #%€"


Do y'all think the old guy was coming on to me or just being friendly?


Could be either
I am sure there are men like B1 said but he would have to be fairly stupid to think that telling a woman that has never seen him before “…lets go to my car….” Is going to get him anywhere.

My guess would be that he still has an attraction of some sort for a good looking, good smelling woman. Men can still be attracted to women even in the senior years.


I try to be very considerate of my wife but when an attractive woman comes within my sight then there is a little jump inside. I was watching the super Bowl and at half time I said “WOW look at Beyonce she is an attractive woman”. I realized that my wife heard me so I tried to recover and said “Honey remember when you said that Billie Dee Williams was good looking? She said yeah and then went back talking to our daughter in law; she was not the least bit concerned. Whew, I did not want to upset my wife but an attractive woman will just liven you up a bit.

*EI, the main thing in your situation was that you responded well and have the right thoughts about the situation.* What he thought is unknown but your thoughts are pure. You said


> “B1 said that the man was flirting and I said he was just an old guy being nice.”


B1 maybe right but your thoughts are what counts and so 
*
As a man (Woman) thinketh so is he (she)*

EI, you must be an attractive woman on the outside and from what I have read about you on this thread you are also an attractive woman on the inside. *The reason I say that is that B1 has made some statements about you that tell me that you are both.*


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## Rookie4

EI, my uncle was a flirt until he died. From the time he was 3 until 86. He was always complimentary to ladies of all ages. Most old guys are like this. He was fishing. If you gave off any positive vibes he would have pursued it further, but it is still nice to talk to a lady, regardless. Always remember, he may be old, but he's not dead.


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## Rags

I'm not sure an old guy was really 'pursuing' - as in I doubt that he'd seriously have tried to take it anywhere, even with a flirtatious response.

Before his memory went entirely, my grandfather used to flirt with the nurses who came to help during the day. He couldn't have done anything about it even if they'd been up for it (yeah, right) - but he still liked to flirt, as most men do. Especially as there was no risk attached.

In your place EI (if I were female) I'd take the complement and leave it at that.

(My wife has a thing for older men too ... makes me wonder why she married someone younger than herself!)


----------



## B1

EI said:


> Okay, silly question. I ran out to do a few errands today since B1 worked from home and I haven't really gotten out since well before Jo-Jo's surgery. Right before I left the house, B1 said that I was going to turn heads. I didn't think I looked or felt like I was going to be turning any heads today. Sooooo, I'm at Walmart (the place where everyone goes to get picked up, right?) and I'm looking at sterile dressings so that I could change the dressing on Jo-Jo's incision. There was an older gentlemen in the same aisle, about 3-4 feet away, looking at bandaids. He was at least 20 years older than me, meaning he is plenty old enough to be a member of the AARP and draw social security, too. He commented that he was having trouble finding what he was looking for. I just smiled.
> 
> After a minute or two he and I had both made our selections. He said, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but you smell good." I smiled, laughed and said "well, thank you." Now, I wasn't wearing any perfume and I hadn't just gotten out of the bathtub, so it could only have been my hair spray or makeup that he was smelling and I don't think he was standing close enough to smell my hair or makeup. B1 said that the man was flirting and I said he was just an old guy being nice. He said that he might have said that I smell good, but he really meant, "I hope you don't think I'm rude, but let's go to my car and #%€"
> 
> Do y'all think the old guy was coming on to me or just being friendly?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now..now.. I did say he was probably flirting and then I made a joke about lets go to the car. I think he saw a pretty lady and had to say something. Now, had EI flirted back he may have taken it further, who knows.

Either way it was harmless and it was good for EI. She came back in a great mood, partly just getting out did her a world of good, but she also got noticed. I don't mind it at all, EI is a very attractive woman and will turn heads. She also, as Mr. Blunt put it, is attractive on the inside too. And the best thing of all...She's mine, ALL mine. All this beauty, inside and out :smthumbup:

btw: We had a good day yesterday, a really good day. Talking about "IT" has really settled down to maybe once a day, sometimes not at all. And if we do discuss it, it's usually quick.

I still have moments though within a day where I dwell on some part of the A. It can get bad sometimes, but then I will notice that my mind has wondered onto something else. I catch myself and think "wow, I just dumped the A thinking and started thinking about something else and didn't even realize it"
I love those times.

Still, I have moments where it overwhelms me, where the thoughts hammer at me like a machine gun, This may go on for 5-10 minutes. Then, I seem to get a grip. It's almost like some sort of mild panic attack. 

Overall, I am very happy. We still have a very stressful life with so much going on at one time, but I am happy, happy to be with EI and happy I am in love with her and very happy she's in love with me. She's a wonderful person and I am lucky to have her and she is lucky to have me. Hey, we are both lucky in Kentucky 

Now, EI still has a to forgive herself, she has to get past it. She spends so much of her time feeling bad about herself, not being able to handle good comments and nice remarks about herself.
Yesterday, she felt good, at least for a little while. Her smile will light up a room, and she smiled a lot yesterday and it was nice to see. I want to see more of that, lots more.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> He was an old dude who saw a pretty girl and if he could get a response from you it would make him feel good I think.
> I remember my uncles complementing younger pretty women and if the girl said that was sweet of them it made their day.
> It seems innocent enough.
> I saw your pic EI,me and CSS agree you purty!
> Dont hit me too hard B1!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EI, EXACTLY what Calvin says here. You purty thang, you!


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## calvin

You purty to bobka!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seasalt

EI,

I am definately qualified as an old guy to give an opinion on your post, but first a referrence to my unfortunate post from before Thanksgiving.

In that post one of the points I was trying to make was that unlike animals we must rely on words to communicate. However, scent is the most evokative of all the senses and perhaps you wafted something primal in his direction. I'm not saying that he reacted sexually to you but perhaps you brought back a pleasant memory with your scent. I know that occasionally I notice the unmistakable scent of a woman who is experiencing her period. It will trigger a number of memories some pleasant and some not so. Either way I would never be predisposed to comment on a woman's scent unless it is to my wife and she would probably mention it first because she has the superior nose.

Now as for his intentions, I can only say that anything is possible but am reminded about there being "no fool like an old fool." From your avatar you are a presentable woman in the oldfashioned sense of the word so take them and reject them as they come.

Probably too much information and I'm either ashamed or disappointed to say it but now-a-days when I see a mother with children I would rather engage with the children than the mother. Perhaps it's because we've been away for five weeks and don't go home for another seven and I miss my grandsons.

Seasalt


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## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> Always remember, he may be old, but he's not dead.


yup...


----------



## Lister

_I have a therapy session tomorrow, and have some homework to work on tonight for it. My therapist is trying to help me work on the process of self-forgiveness, and gave me some worksheets to mount a mock "defense" for my crimes (in my mind). How can I possibly defend the horrible, horrible things I've done? I don't think there is any reasonable defense for my affair. I guess I can try to look at it and defend myself now with the changes that I've been making - sort of like applying for parole... I don't know. It's hard to not just feel like a pathetic waste of human tissue when I look at all that I've done to Matt and our son. But I keep trying to move forward from that and make something out of the shambles of myself.

Thinking of everyone here and so grateful as always to read anything positive in our world.[/QUOTE]

Hi MM,SG (my BS) feels that I am always being defensive, and she has a point. Like me you cannot defend the horrible things you have done as they are indefensible. It's one of the reasons why WSs lie and Trickle Truth I think, because we see no alternative. It is a learning process to face the awful truth about what you did and be honest about it. But when SG looks me in the eye and says 'what you did was selfish and cruel' i want the floor to swallow me up because it's true, and there's no defense. 

We have had a bad day today. SG has said that she feels that she is struggling with the thought of a future where she cannot trust me. She feels that I still don't share my feelings with her or reassure her enough about how much I love her and want to spend the rest of my life with her. 

And so I got defensive. Not about the A, but about how hard I'm trying now. I know i was wrong, should have just listened and tried to do better but sometimes I do feel that whatever i do it will never be enough to make up for the A and the pain i caused. I believe SG thinks that I expect her to forgive me and move on and that makes her angry I think. I don't. Every day I half expect her to say she wants me to leave. I take nothing for granted and am so grateful that she is still prepared to work so hard to stay together and cope with what i did.

I think your idea for parole is a good one and probably the best we WSs can hope to achieve in terms of a defense. Try not to be too self loathing though, and think of all the positive attributes you have to offer your family._


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## Mr Blunt

> By B1
> Overall, I am very happy. We still have a very stressful life with so much going on at one time, but I am happy, happy to be with EI and happy I am in love with her and very happy she's in love with me. She's a wonderful person and I am lucky to have her and she is lucky to have me. Hey, we are both lucky in Kentucky


What a powerful statement made by B1. It has been less than a year and B1 is kicking azz in this reconciliation thingy.

Those machinegun thoughts that hammer at you only last 5-10 minutes; that tells me that B1 is way ahead in this war.




> Now, EI still has to forgive herself, she has to get past it. She spends so much of her time feeling bad about herself, not being able to handle good comments and nice remarks about herself.


EI, a very good man (B1) is very attracted to you and that has got to help you with your forgiveness of yourself.

EI and B1, I know that you value God’s word so I am reprinting below some information that I got that I think may be helpful to EI



> *How Can I Forgive Myself? *
> Forgiveness is based on the atoning work of the Cross, and not on anything we do. God's forgiveness does not depend on our confession, nor does His fellowship. Confession is a means for releasing us from the tension and bondage of a guilty conscience. When we pray, God, You are right. I have sinned against You. I am guilty of this act. I am guilty of that,
> *we achieve release.*
> 
> *HOW WE CAN FORGIVE OURSELVES *
> Step 3. Reaffirm Trust
> We must reaffirm our trust in the testimony of Scripture: "As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us" (Psalm 103:12 NKJV). Father, *I reaffirm my trust and my faith in the Word of God.*


----------



## B1

Hello all,
Just checking in to see how everyone is doing?

EI and I are doing well, today we are getting out for a couple hours when our daughter and husband come over. Our son is needing round the clock care right now so we both can't get out at the same time unless someone is here to watch him. So, today we are getting out, at least that's the plan for now.

EI is running around singing this morning which means she's in a good mood and I like that she's happy. 

Yesterday was more somber, lonely and we both felt isolated. It can be tough sometimes. So, it's good to hear EI singing.


----------



## old timer

Mardi Gras for me. 

Hit the casino last night. About to head uptown for Bachus Bash, Bloody Marys, Moon Pies, and beads. 

Oh yes, and t!ts



Edit to add: Not necessarily in that order
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

old timer said:


> Mardi Gras for me.
> 
> Hit the casino last night. About to head uptown for Bachus Bash, Bloody Marys, Moon Pies, and beads.
> 
> Oh yes, and t!ts
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You had to mention all the boobies didn't you OT!


----------



## calvin

Show em OT,I got some beads for ya!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> EI is running around singing this morning which means she's in a good mood and I like that she's happy.


Honey, I'll sing for ya every day if you'll rock my world like ya did just now!


----------



## JCD

Three *hundred* and nine pages. *Three* hundred and nine pages.

No...sorry...not happening.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone. Horrible rainy day here in the UK.
H is away for a few days visiting his dad, I miss him but its nice to do my own thing for a few days.
Currently snuggled under a blanket watching 'Annie' with my daughter. They are doing it for her school production in a few weeks.
Love to all
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

JCD said:


> Three *hundred* and nine pages. *Three* hundred and nine pages.
> 
> No...sorry...not happening.




But it's 309 pages of good stuff, JCD!


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## EI

Here are some of our Family Album II pictures that we thought we could share with a few of our virtual friends! 

Click here for album:


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> Here are some of our Family Album II pictures that we thought we could share with a few of our virtual friends!
> 
> Click here for album:


Nice crew. B1 looks like my cousin Dave, you look like one of my HS girlfriends, and the little guy is as cute as a bug.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Nice crew. B1 looks like my cousin Dave, you look like one of my HS girlfriends, and the little guy is as cute as a bug.


The little guy is the light of our life. B1 is a Systems Engineer by day and a part-time photographer on the side. A really good one, too, I might add. Aside from the offspring of certain celebrities, there may not be another more photographed baby on the planet. We have, literally, thousands of pictures of him and everyday he is just a little bit more amazing than he was the day before. If we had known that grand-parenting was going to be so great we would have skipped having children, altogether, and gone straight to grandkids!  LOL


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## Rookie4

I miss our pictures a lot. I burned everything that had Sweetie and I in them, only keeping pics of family and friends. She kept a few of me, and my and her parents have some , but most were burned. Isn't that sad? Well, we will just have to take some new ones, of the new US. As far as grandkids go, we haven't any .....yet. But that could change, momentarily, if my older daughter has anything to do with it. She is ready to nest.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> I miss our pictures a lot. I burned everything that had Sweetie and I in them, only keeping pics of family and friends. She kept a few of me, and my and her parents have some , but most were burned. Isn't that sad? Well, we will just have to take some new ones, of the new US. As far as grandkids go, we haven't any .....yet. But that could change, momentarily, if my older daughter has anything to do with it. She is ready to nest.



If you and Sweetie ever pass this way then you can stop in. B1 would gladly do your first "new" family portrait..... complimentary! If you want to see some real examples of his work, pm me and I'll give you a link to his website.


----------



## Rookie4

Thanks , EI, I will do that.


----------



## jh52

Saw this on the internet and wanted to share:

1) love yourself, because only then can you love others

2) your windshield is bigger than your rear view mirror because the past is less important than your future


----------



## SomedayDig

A great set of pictures B1 & EI!! Very, very nice. EI...your eyes light up with your smile and B1, man...what can I say? Great photographer and I really like your self portrait 2nd pic. Mr. Debonair!


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Saw this on the internet and wanted to share:
> 
> 1) love yourself, because only then can you love others
> 
> 2) your windshield is bigger than your rear view mirror because the past is less important than your future


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I like that jh,good stuff
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> Here are some of our Family Album II pictures that we thought we could share with a few of our virtual friends!
> 
> Click here for album:


Wow, EI, you have, like, the best smile ever!

B1, you always look so serious!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

EI said:


> If we had known that grand-parenting was going to be so great we would have skipped having children, altogether, and gone straight to grandkids!  LOL


That's pretty funny, if you do the math...


----------



## B1

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Wow, EI, you have, like, the best smile ever!
> 
> B1, you always look so serious!


Yes, she does, I love her smile.

I will have to work on my "serious look" issue. I'm not always serious, .....seriously, I'm not 


The self portrait was more accident, I was taking pics of myself, working with my lighting trying to achieve a certain affect called rembrandt lighting, and I thought at the last minute I would take off my glasses, when I did I accidentally triggered the lights. Boom, the serious look and the exact lighting affect I wanted. It just worked.


----------



## ChangingMe

Love the photos, guys! Such a good-looking couple. And that little grandson of yours is beyond adorable.


----------



## Mr Blunt

When I click on EI’s link to pictures I get this message below:



> Invalid Album specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator


*How do I get the pictures?*


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> When I click on EI’s link to pictures I get this message below:
> 
> 
> 
> *How do I get the pictures?*


I tried the link again, Mr. Blunt, and it worked for me. First, make sure you are logged in when you click on the link or it won't work. If that doesn't help, then, if you are on a PC or laptop rather than a mobile phone you can click on "EI" by my avatar and go to my profile. At the bottom right, it will take you to our family albums. These pics are in the "B1 and EI Family Album II." Try those two things and if they don't work we'll try something else. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> A great set of pictures B1 & EI!! Very, very nice. EI...your eyes light up with your smile and B1, man...what can I say? Great photographer and I really like your self portrait 2nd pic. Mr. Debonair!


Thank you, Dig. B1 has always said the same thing about my eyes when I smile. I count on his amazing photography skills to supply a lot of smoke and mirrors when taking my pics. Because the pics that I take NEVER come out like the ones that HE takes! LOL

And, I agree with you, B1 is Mr. Debonair. I loved his "accidental pic" when he was taking off his glasses while "playing with the lighting." It's one of my favorite pictures of him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Wow, EI, you have, like, the best smile ever!
> 
> B1, you always look so serious!


Why thank you, Bobka! That's very sweet! B1 might look serious in his pics but he has a great sense of humor that hasn't necessarily been obvious on TAM...... because, well, we talk about serious stuff on TAM. He's actually got quite a rep amongst family, friends and co-workers as a practical joker! And, he does the kind of stuff that no one ever sees coming and sometimes don't figure out until long after the fact.

Maybe he'll share some of his genius regarding that with you guys later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all! 

EI and B1, your photos look great! So nice to see real faces and some real smiles. 

CM, things really seem like they are finally moving forward a bit for you and DD. I read his update today and that seems like a huge choice for him to stop being so reactive and start attempting to manage his emotions and responses. I'm so happy for both of you for reaching this point together.

Matt and I are 12 weeks past D-Day #2. I am grateful that he is still communicating with me and we can spend time with each other and our son. I had a rough week last week personally, and called in to work playing "hooky" for the first time in my life because I was too depressed to face my day. But I am feeling stronger after the weekend, and particularly enjoyed Sunday with Matt. We are having a Fat Tuesday party at our house, and Matt is making homemade seafood gumbo and shrimp etoufee. I'll help with the chopping, prep, clean-up stuff, but Matt is definitely the roux master.  I'm really looking forward to it. We have shared 2 wonderful trips to New Orleans together, and the food definitely brings back those memories.

Matt has also agreed to go out to dinner with me for Valentine's Day!  We're not doing presents or anything like that, but I'm really happy that he has agreed to a date. It will be our first evening out together since my production in January, and I am looking forward to it very much.

I'm trying to stay optimistic after my darkness last week, but I also need to try to stay realistic. We are still very much on the roller coaster here, and while I feel incredibly different 12 weeks after D-Day #2 compared to D-Day #1, I know Matt is still stuck a bit and is having a hard time progressing because of the false R I put him through. I feel nothing comparable to "normal" but I do have moments when I am holding Matt in my arms or waking up with him that for a brief time, I don't think about all the horrible things I have done to us and just can enjoy that moment of togetherness.

I have been struggling with finding concrete actions to show my love and care for Matt. The things that I am doing seem so simple and basic, but I need to remember that those basic everyday things add up and make a huge difference. He posted the other night that he could see I was trying to be my best with him, and it was really nice to read that. I want to make sure he knows I am still seriously working, that I take NOTHING for granted, and that I am really doing my best to be the kind of wife and mother my family deserves. It's weird how things that make me really happy can make me totally depressed at the same time. Last night Matt was helping me move my clothes back into our closet, and then we played on the bed with our son for a while, just tickling him and throwing him around and silly stuff like that. He was giggling and Matt was smiling and I was so happy in that moment and so crushed at the same time at everything I've done and the hurt and pain I've caused. It's such a crazy overwhelming mix of strong opposite emotions.

Anyway, I've missed my updates from Reconcilers over the weekend, and hope you all have had a bit of personal sunshine in your lives.


----------



## ChangingMe

MrsM, I can totally relate to the mixed emotions. I get that too, when I'm in the moment and loving life -when it is just the typically times of hanging out with the family and being silly -and I feel grateful, joyful, and at the same time ashamed, pained, and sad at how I jeopardized these moment and nearly changed them for all of us. 

I am glad you both have had a good weekend. The Fat Tuesday party sounds fun, and having a date for Valentines sounds great. I don't think we will be celebrating at all. It has always been one of DD's least favorite holidays (he says it feels too forced), so it's never really been celebrated. I don't expect anything this year, but if I'm home with him, that truly is more than enough. 

I feel like I am still processing things right now, as far as my life and where things are with DD. Last night, we had a big talk, and I learned several things:

1. DD stopped his meds 10 days ago which is a lot longer than I thought. 
2. He has made a decision to not react or let his feelings rule him. 
3. xOMW emailed him and said she has forgiven me. 

The forgiveness thing is huge, it is something I never even allowed myself to hope for from this woman. I am completely undeserving of this, and I can't even wrap my mind around how she has come to this place. I am beyond grateful, though it doesn't make me feel any less guilty or ashamed as to what I did to this person who once considered me her friend. I honestly can't even allow myself to believe that she truly has forgiven me. 

As for DD, I can see where her reaction has been a bit of a turning point for him. And he is one who, when he decides something, he can make it happen. I do think that he can will himself not to react like he has been. I don't for a second believe that this means we're past dealing with this or he's "over it." He's not. But maybe he can let some of the anger and pain go and move forward a bit. 

He said he is not ready to put his wedding ring back on and that he does not think he's going to until he has me take a polygraph. He had me scheduled for one about a week after DDay2, and I was ready to go to it, but then he told me the day of that he cancelled it. He brought the idea up again in the fall, and once again, I said ok. I told him again last night that I would do it, but he says he wants to wait a bit, since he would rather use the money towards flight lessons at this point. So I don't know what that really means. I will take one if he needs me to. I will wait if that's what he wants as well. 

I like that he is doing ok off meds, since I know how much he hates them. Things around the house have been fairly good (and we did have some good "connecting" after our talk last night). I feel though that part of me is still waiting for the other shoe to drop, since we have been in a good place before, and then it goes bad again. I am also nervous, since the last couple times he's stopped the antidepressants, he's ended up very depressed and angry. I'm praying that that won't be the case this time, and we can continue to move forward and grow together.


----------



## old timer

In NOLA, getting ready for my first Fat Tuesday ever in the Big Easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## moxy

old timer said:


> In NOLA, getting ready for my first Fat Tuesday ever in the Big Easy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have fun!


----------



## SomedayDig

old timer said:


> In NOLA, getting ready for my first Fat Tuesday ever in the Big Easy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sooooo jealous!

Regret is, too!


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> I tried the link again, Mr. Blunt, and it worked for me. First, make sure you are logged in when you click on the link or it won't work. If that doesn't help, then, if you are on a PC or laptop rather than a mobile phone you can click on "EI" by my avatar and go to my profile. At the bottom right, it will take you to our family albums. These pics are in the "B1 and EI Family Album II." Try those two things and if they don't work we'll try something else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Could it be that the link only works for contacts/friends because album has been set to not public? Because I can't see it either


----------



## old timer

Been here since Saturday. Hit the casino Sat nite, went to a big parade yesterday. About to head out to another this evening. Mebbe back to casino again later. Not too late, though - big day tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I was able to see it on my cell phone but some peoples pics I can't see I have no idea why..must be the program they use..i don't know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

old timer said:


> Been here since Saturday. Hit the casino Sat nite, went to a big parade yesterday. About to head out to another this evening. Mebbe back to casino again later. Not too late, though - big day tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like alot of fun and a great break for you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

CantSitStill said:


> I was able to see it on my cell phone but some peoples pics I can't see I have no idea why..must be the program they use..i don't know
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You may check and see if those who you can see, are also those on your contact/friend list.


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> You may check and see if those who you can see, are also those on your contact/friend list.



You are probably right.... I added you to my contacts and I sent a friend request to Mr. Blunt. Thanks..... that was something that I hadn't thought of.


----------



## CantSitStill

oh ok if I know that only friends can view pics I would feel much more comfortable putting one on here..I had a photobucket account a long time ago that me and my daughter used, one day will have to transport new pics on computer then go from there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> oh ok if I know that only friends can view pics I would feel much more comfortable putting one on here..I had a photobucket account a long time ago that me and my daughter used, one day will have to transport new pics on computer then go from there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It looks like that's the case. I've gone back through several pages of posts on the "R" thread and have sent "friend request/add to contact list" to anyone on the thread that I didn't already have on my contact list. 

I kind of prefer it that way, too. 'Cuz for whatever reason, I am just naive enough to believe that everyone who posts on this thread really is my friend, right?  LOL


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> You may check and see if those who you can see, are also those on your contact/friend list.


Will you try to use that link, again, and let me know if it works for you now?


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> Will you try to use that link, again, and let me know if it works for you now?


It does - beautiful couple - thanks for making me smile.


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> It does - beautifull couple - thanks for making me smile.


Awww.... thank you very much! I kinda like both of those guys. The big guy and the little guy!


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> Awww.... thank you very much! I kinda like both of those guys. The big guy and the little guy!


Well, thinking about it, I would be happy to include you in the assessment as well  JK


----------



## Mr Blunt

EI GOT YOUR PICTURES!!

I knew that EI was beautiful on the inside now I know that she is also beautiful on the outside! 

It is just not fair; you and B1 do not have a wrinkle in your whole face. I know I am older than both of you but my skin has not been that smooth since junior high school!

EI, like my wife, you have beautiful teeth also.

BI, that picture where you are holding your glasses by your chin scares me. I would not want to mess with you because you remind me of “The Rock” and Vin Diesel. Glad that I know that you are a very humble and good man.

B1 you look like nothing that I had imagined. I imagined you with lots of hair and a little pudgy like me. You look a LOT better than I thought. *You look more like a HUNK and I look more like the HULK!!*


----------



## margrace

EI said:


> It looks like that's the case. I've gone back through several pages of posts on the "R" thread and have sent "friend request/add to contact list" to anyone on the thread that I didn't already have on my contact list.
> 
> I kind of prefer it that way, too. 'Cuz for whatever reason, I am just naive enough to believe that everyone who posts on this thread really is my friend, right?  LOL


omg, EI and B1.... you two are *both* beyond adorable! and those are the cutest kids ever! EI, you are straight-up gorgeous and B1, you remind me a little of my H!

good way to start out today 

XO from your friend (and friend of all you R posters), mg


----------



## calvin

Yes EI is a good looking woman,her and B1 are a damn good looking couple,I think I have a crush on B1,I still want him to shoot me in the nude!
All kidding aside,you guys have a fine looking family and you all seem very happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

EI said:


> Here are some of our Family Album II pictures that we thought we could share with a few of our virtual friends!
> 
> Click here for album:


Wait, you guys are real people ? 

EI should be doing toothpaste commercials with that smile of hers. 


:rofl:



Great pictures B1. Also, self shots(The curse of a photographer. Happens a lot in my family too)


----------



## jh52

Happy Paczkis Day Tammers --- or Happy "Fat" Tuesday.

Hope everyone has a great day -----


----------



## B1

WOW...Just got on here and read all the pic comments...Thank you ALL, Can you say, EGO boost. I am smiling from ear to ear and humbled by all the positive comments. 

Mr. Blunt the one pic you talked about is one of my favorites, and EI's too. I posted about it earlier, it was an accidental self portrait.
And if the xOM were to see a pic of me that's the one I want him to see..or perhaps the one were I photoshopped lightning in the background, yeah, that one would work too. 


Now, that many of you have seen EI, can you believe I completely ignored that beautiful woman for years, and if you knew her on the inside it's even more ashame. She is a talker, a communicator at heart, surprising huh  and I was so shutdown pre-A that our communications were next to zero, and when we did talk it was generally not pleasant. Looking back, those were some very sad times. We have come a LONG way since then, a long way!

She said last night, as she has many times now, after we were talking that I was such a changed man that sometimes she doesn't recognize me. She truly thinks of the old me and this new me as two different people. Like our marriage pre-A and now, two different marriages.

Truth is, it's still me but now I'm uninhibited and have emotions and express them. I was also defeated and hopeless then and I thought that's were EI should be too. 

Now, on a good note...here were are today, in a much better place, a loving, emotional, caring, forgiving place. I was laying my head in EI's lap last night and it was truly blissful. We are having some very good times and will continue to do so, I know it. I cannot imagine a life without EI, I love that woman with all my heart.


----------



## B1

warlock07 said:


> Wait, you guys are real people ?
> 
> EI should be doing toothpaste commercials with that smile of hers.
> 
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> Great pictures B1. Also, self shots(The curse of a photographer. Happens a lot in my family too)


Yep, we are real, or we really just messing with everyone and posting pics of two of our friends ;-)

btw I have an album also located HERE with some of my work.

Good to hear from you warlock, been a long time.


----------



## Rookie4

OLd Timer, at the risk of stating the obvious, let me give you a good piece of advice.
Take enough time off so that when you get back from NOLA, you can have a day or so of peace and quiet.
Unless you just do the tourist things, NOLA isn't for the faint of heart.
My last trip to the Crescent City was right after D-day, and I have never been drunker, never spent so much money, and never had so much sex in a 4 day period, in my life.
Every morning I woke up with a different bed partner, whose name , more than likely , I didn't remember.
BUT, for a man who is recovering from infidelity, NOLA is a Godsend.
Just remember to take a few days for recoupement, as the French say.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By B1
> Mr. Blunt the one pic you talked about is one of my favorites, and EI's too. I posted about it earlier, it was an accidental self portrait.
> And *if the xOM were to see a pic of me that's the one I want him to see*..or perhaps the one were I photoshopped lightning in the background, yeah, that one would work too.




*



if the xOM were to see a pic of me that's the one I want him to see

Click to expand...

*I had that thought also in my previous post and one of the reasons that I said
*



“I would not want to mess with you because you remind me of “The Rock” and Vin Diesel.”

Click to expand...

*Guess we men just cannot completely get away from wanting the OM to know who the bigger man is; B1. There was a man (Luke) that worked with my brother that was done very wrong by his boss; very hurtful and on purpose. Luke, a southern rebel, could not take it any more, pulled a gun on his boss and made him stay in one spot until he crapped his pants. Luke went to jail with a smile on his face.

I tell you that story because I think I know you good enough to know that you would not pull a gun on OM. B1, you seemed very balanced, Luke was not the most balanced man I knew, so I hope that you and I will just get a little satisfaction out of knowing that your picture would make that OM at lest have stomach cramps or change his shorts!

*B1 now that we have had a little fun I want to say that your picture of that pond and trees is very TRANQUIL!!* I am not an expert on pictures but that one is beautiful! The trees, the greenery (I love greenery), and the use of light is so soothing. Thanks ROCK, er I mean B1, I need that picture to reduce my testosterone and my revenge thoughts.

B1, keep taking those pictures and enjoying your beautiful (Inside and out) wife. *Keep staying focused on your great progress; you and EI are a winners!**

Blunt*


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> OLd Timer, at the risk of stating the obvious, let me give you a good piece of advice.
> Take enough time off so that when you get back from NOLA, you can have a day or so of peace and quiet.
> Unless you just do the tourist things, NOLA isn't for the faint of heart.
> My last trip to the Crescent City was right after D-day, and I have never been drunker, never spent so much money, and never had so much sex in a 4 day period, in my life.
> Every morning I woke up with a different bed partner, whose name , more than likely , I didn't remember.
> BUT, for a man who is recovering from infidelity, NOLA is a Godsend.
> Just remember to take a few days for recoupement, as the French say.


Everything you say has happened, with the exception of unlimited sex - I've taken a vow of celibacy (*chuckles*). 

But having a wonderful time. Did pretty well in the poker room last night after the parades, just now getting moving and trying to figure out where to go today. Leaning toward the Quarter. Bummer is, I have to leave tonight or early in the AM to attend my MILs funeral service tomorrow, do I'll have to be a bit conservative in my alcohol consumption today. 

And that svcks on Fat Tuesday in NOLA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

B1 said:


> Now, that many of you have seen EI, can you believe I completely ignored that beautiful woman for years, and if you knew her on the inside it's even more ashame. She is a talker, a communicator at heart, surprising huh  and I was so shutdown pre-A that our communications were next to zero, and when we did talk it was generally not pleasant. Looking back, those were some very sad times. We have come a LONG way since then, a long way!
> 
> She said last night, as she has many times now, after we were talking that I was such a changed man that sometimes she doesn't recognize me. She truly thinks of the old me and this new me as two different people. Like our marriage pre-A and now, two different marriages.
> 
> Truth is, it's still me but now I'm uninhibited and have emotions and express them. I was also defeated and hopeless then and I thought that's were EI should be too.
> 
> Now, on a good note...here were are today, in a much better place, a loving, emotional, caring, forgiving place. I was laying my head in EI's lap last night and it was truly blissful. We are having some very good times and will continue to do so, I know it. I cannot imagine a life without EI, I love that woman with all my heart.


Pidge and I talked of how we were. I would say the lowest point between us pre A was the day my son was born. Leading up to his birth we never talked and if we did it was less then loving. I was in the delivery room and held my boy after he was born. After that I handed him to her and left. Effing awful huh? Instead of talking to her about everything that was wrong with us I just shut her out and walked away.


----------



## happyman64

Yes Joe that is awful. But you recognize that your behavior is awful.

Now the key is to fix it. Both of you.

And it takes time which you know.

The key is to pile on anymore hurt.

Keep going Joe!


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> Pidge and I talked of how we were. I would say the lowest point between us pre A was the day my son was born. Leading up to his birth we never talked and if we did it was less then loving. I was in the delivery room and held my boy after he was born. After that I handed him to her and left. Effing awful huh? Instead of talking to her about everything that was wrong with us I just shut her out and walked away.


I see you changed your sig line again. Mr. Brightside WAS gonna be my screen name...

I just can't look - it's killing me and taking control...


----------



## joe kidd

happyman64 said:


> Yes Joe that is awful. But you recognize that your behavior is awful.
> 
> Now the key is to fix it. Both of you.
> 
> And it takes time which you know.
> 
> The key is to pile on anymore hurt.
> 
> Keep going Joe!


I know I can be a cold and distant man. Really trying to change that.


----------



## joe kidd

SomedayDig said:


> I see you changed your sig line again. Mr. Brightside WAS gonna be my screen name...
> 
> I just can't look - it's killing me and taking control...


That song will tear the heart out of you. Did me anyway.


----------



## SomedayDig

joe kidd said:


> That song will tear the heart out of you. Did me anyway.


Hadn't heard it in forever...since before Dday. Regret and I were doing one of our deck talks and we had my iPod hooked up and listening to stuff. She went in to grab us some drinks and that song came on.

It took my breath away cuz I never heard the song that way until then. F'ng killed me.


----------



## EI

Thank you all for the lovely compliments!  The truth is, B1 is an amazing photographer and has an eye for everything. He understands lighting, angles, positions, (in more ways than one ) coloring, anything and everything that has to do with taking a great picture. If you haven't looked at the link to some of his landscapes you should.

I just want to say that I know how incredibly blessed I am to be loved by him, cherished by him, adored by him and most of all..... forgiven by him. There is so much more that I'd like to say.... but, today has been busier than usual. I'll get back later, with an epic sized "EI post." 'Cuz I know that you guys are missing my epic EI posts, right?  LOL


*CALVIN,* if you want B1 to photograph you naked then you are going to have to get in line..... I have been trying to get him to.................. hmmm.....  And, I know you have a crush on him.... but, I'm not sharing him!  He's all mine!  I'm sure you understand!


----------



## Rags

Those are some very good pictures.

(I say this as a relative of photographers who have won National Photographer of the Year in the UK - serious prize.)


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Thank you all for the lovely compliments!  The truth is, B1 is an amazing photographer and has an eye for everything. He understands lighting, angles, positions, (in more ways than one ) coloring, anything and everything that has to do with taking a great picture. If you haven't looked at the link to some of his landscapes you should.
> 
> I just want to say that I know how incredibly blessed I am to be loved by him, cherished by him, adored by him and most of all..... forgiven by him. There is so much more that I'd like to say.... but, today has been busier than usual. I'll get back later, with an epic sized "EI post." 'Cuz I know that you guys are missing my epic EI posts, right?  LOL
> 
> 
> *CALVIN,* if you want B1 to photograph you naked then you are going to have to get in line..... I have been trying to get him to.................. hmmm.....  And, I know you have a crush on him.... but, I'm not sharing him!  He's all mine!  I'm sure you understand!


With this Greek God like body?

Trying to Make CSS jealous...not working....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

"The Story of Us". Regret and I watched this movie when it first came out and when we first met. It was such a tear jerker and yes, I cried cuz as Regret would say, I'm a sap who is totally in touch with his feelings. 

I DVR'd it last month when we had free HBO...we're watching it tonight. It is painful but such a great movie. 

It's also what we named our online journal last year when we began to write to each other.

Our lives together come full circle. She hurt me so much. And I love her.


----------



## CantSitStill

SomedayDig said:


> "The Story of Us". Regret and I watched this movie when it first came out and when we first met. It was such a tear jerker and yes, I cried cuz as Regret would say, I'm a sap who is totally in touch with his feelings.
> 
> I DVR'd it last month when we had free HBO...we're watching it tonight. It is painful but such a great movie.
> 
> It's also what we named our online journal last year when we began to write to each other.
> 
> Our lives together come full circle. She hurt me so much. And I love her.


That's the damn movie I believe Calvin and I just happened to be watching one night and I was so choked up, tried to hold back the tears..grabbed him real tight and let the tears fall..my goodness it was rough to watch
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> That's the damn movie I believe Calvin and I just happened to be watching one night and I was so choked up, tried to hold back the tears..grabbed him real tight and let the tears fall..my goodness it was rough to watch
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good movie.Sad and haunting...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

SomedayDig said:


> Our lives together come full circle. She hurt me so much. And I love her.


Oh, Dig, this made me cry to read. You're a good man. And I'm glad things have come full circle for the two of you.


----------



## happyman64

joe kidd said:


> I know I can be a cold and distant man. Really trying to change that.


That is cool I have been accused of being cold & warped.

All we can do is try to be better men....


----------



## EI

I just want to say how much all of you mean to me. Whether you post short novels about something you're going through, or 2 or 3 lines just to check in with one another, I love this "virtual" place in my life. Some of us leave long, wordy posts (not me, but some of you do ;-)........) and others, like Dig and Joe, can drop a few lines that say so much. Some comments lead to lengthy discussions, while others stand alone, needing only the silent acknowledgement that someone else knows what you're going through. 

Thank you all so much for coming here and sharing your own personal journeys. I think the fact that BS's and WS's are both able to come together, on one thread, and bear their souls, without the fear of condemnation, has given us all an opportunity to learn from one another, to better understand one another, to have compassion for one another, and ultimately to forgive one another. I know that B1 and I would not have come this far, in such a short amount of time, without the support, wisdom and compassion that we have received from each of you. You all really are a very special group of individuals and I am so grateful for each of you. 

Take care,
EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> I just want to say how much all of you mean to me. Whether you post short novels about something you're going through, or 2 or 3 lines just to check in with one another, I love this "virtual" place in my life. Some of us leave long, wordy posts (not me, but some of you do ;-)........) and others, like Dig and Joe, can drop a few lines that say so much. Some comments lead to lengthy discussions, while others stand alone, needing only the silent acknowledgement that someone else knows what you're going through.
> 
> Thank you all so much for coming here and sharing your own personal journeys. I think the fact that BS's and WS's are both able to come together, on one thread, and bear their souls, without the fear of condemnation, has given us all an opportunity to learn from one another, to better understand one another, to have compassion for one another, and ultimately to forgive one another. I know that B1 and I would not have come this far, in such a short amount of time, without the support, wisdom and compassion that we have received from each of you. You all really are a very special group of individuals and I am so grateful for each of you.
> 
> Take care,
> EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EI, this is so weird, you just expressed what I was thinking 15 minutes ago. I am about to post some thoughts that I need to work out in my personal journal first, though. I am so glad I found TAM and the people on it, both the hardliners and the compassionate supporters. I have gotten so much perspective on this aspect of my life. A special "thank you" to B1 and you for being there/here?... whatever.

I thought about this: TAM should have a chat-function available when you need emediate support and feedback on thoughts. I miss that sometimes, and I also see other posters who could use it when the roller coaster take a dive.

By the way... it's 5.30 in the morning and I couldn't sleep, so I got out of bed an hour ago to start journaling. So good morning everybody!


----------



## ChangingMe

EI said:


> I just want to say how much all of you mean to me. Whether you post short novels about something you're going through, or 2 or 3 lines just to check in with one another, I love this "virtual" place in my life. Some of us leave long, wordy posts (not me, but some of you do ;-)........) and others, like Dig and Joe, can drop a few lines that say so much. Some comments lead to lengthy discussions, while others stand alone, needing only the silent acknowledgement that someone else knows what you're going through.
> 
> Thank you all so much for coming here and sharing your own personal journeys. I think the fact that BS's and WS's are both able to come together, on one thread, and bear their souls, without the fear of condemnation, has given us all an opportunity to learn from one another, to better understand one another, to have compassion for one another, and ultimately to forgive one another. I know that B1 and I would not have come this far, in such a short amount of time, without the support, wisdom and compassion that we have received from each of you. You all really are a very special group of individuals and I am so grateful for each of you.
> 
> Take care,
> EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As always, beautifully said, EI. And in only 2 paragraphs!  

I've said it before, but this thread is the best place on TAM, and I think that is because it is a place that BSs and WSs can interact respectfully with each other. I am so grateful for this thread, and for all of the people who take the time to post on it.

I remember sitting at work in October, and DD sending me a link to a forum he posted on. I didn't know what to expect, and I was scared to death when I started posting here myself. It has been so incredibly helpful for me though, and the friends I have made here -those that have literally reached out to DD and me when we have been at our lowest -are some of the best people I have come to know in a long time. Thank you all.


----------



## ChangingMe

cpacan, I just noticed you are in Denmark! I assume everyone is here in the US with me -except for MattMatt, who I know is in England. It's 10:38pm here in Texas. I should be heading to bed, but DD and I are both on our computers and making each other laugh. 

I think the chat function would be amazing! There are times you needs someone ASAP. Thankfully, though, I have been lucky enough to have people actually reach out to me, that I can call and talk to when things are bad. And on NYE, when DD bottomed out, he (and I) had several people reaching out, offering their phone numbers. This forum is not perfect, but it is made up with many good people -both betrayeds and waywards alike. I will forever be grateful to the ones that have reached out to me, and I hope that I can be a lifeline to others when they need it.


----------



## cpacan

ChangingMe said:


> cpacan, I just noticed you are in Denmark! I assume everyone is here in the US with me -except for MattMatt, who I know is in England. It's 10:38pm here in Texas. I should be heading to bed, but DD and I are both on our computers and making each other laugh.
> 
> I think the chat function would be amazing! There are times you needs someone ASAP. Thankfully, though, I have been lucky enough to have people actually reach out to me, that I can call and talk to when things are bad. And on NYE, when DD bottomed out, he (and I) had several people reaching out, offering their phone numbers. This forum is not perfect, but it is made up with many good people -both betrayeds and waywards alike. I will forever be grateful to the ones that have reached out to me, and I hope that I can be a lifeline to others when they need it.


I hope I didn't disturb your mind too much by wishing you a good morning at 10.38pm - you may take it as a good night followed by the wish of having a good morning then :scratchhead: 

Yes, Scandinavia it is, where else would you have thought my weird english with an home made accent was from?


----------



## cpacan

... I actually tried the online counsellors once, the ones with the ad on the right side of the board, it was hilarious. I type so slowly in english that I didn't get far beyond "hello, my name is..." and the money were spend... :lol:


----------



## ChangingMe

cpacan said:


> ... I actually tried the online counsellors once, the ones with the ad on the right side of the board, it was hilarious. I type so slowly in english that I didn't get far beyond "hello, my name is..." and the money were spend... :lol:


I've never noticed your English to be "off" -maybe that's why I never noticed your locale. It may take you a while to type it, but when we read it, it sounds spot on. 

And good morning to you! It will be bedtime soon. Should be now, but I'm in a good mood and don't feel like falling asleep quite yet. DD is behind me, editing some music he's written, and I'm enjoying listening to it. 

Hope you have a good day, cpacan!


----------



## cpacan

Thanks CM, that was nice of you to say. I think I would have so much more to share if I didn't have to spend so much time thinking about how to express it in english.

Unfortunately, we don't have local boards who gets even close to the standard of TAM, when it comes to activity from posters. I am glad that I found it.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

Give me strength, people, seems my wife deleted texts to and from toxic friend today.

Investigation mode 22 months past d-day.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Oh cpacan, I'm sorry.  I'm sure that feels awful to be put back into that unsettled place again. Was she ever in NC with this toxic friend? Were they old messages or new? Keeping you in my thoughts.


----------



## EI

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> Give me strength, people, seems my wife deleted texts to and from toxic friend today.
> 
> Investigation mode 22 months past d-day.


Sending positive thoughts your way, cpacan. Please keep us informed.


----------



## AMU

jh52 said:


> Saw this on the internet and wanted to share:
> 
> 1) love yourself, because only then can you love others
> 
> 2) your windshield is bigger than your rear view mirror because the past is less important than your future


Love both of these! I usually read the e-mails from this thread and then delete, but kept this one to file away. Appreciate you sharing!!


----------



## margrace

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> Give me strength, people, seems my wife deleted texts to and from toxic friend today.
> 
> Investigation mode 22 months past d-day.


so sorry to hear that, cpacan... and i also feel exhausted on your behalf as i think about the detective work continuing.

sending that strength to you right now. keep us posted.

p.s. good idea about the chat option.


----------



## B1

EI said YES!!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes what? What did I miss?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Yes what? What did I miss?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are going to "get married," again. On June 21st, 2014. It will be the weekend before our 30th wedding anniversary next year. Just the minister, me, B1, the kids, their significant others, and our grandson. We'll marry at Bernheim Forrest by the lake..... one of B1's favorite places to photograph and only about a 30 minute drive from our home. He "proposed," on one knee, with a 1 carat T.W. Past, Present and Future eternity band. I am so happy that there are simply no words to describe it. I never imagined that our life would take this kind of turn. I feel immeasurably blessed. 

*NOW, * if only we could get *DIG* to officiate???


----------



## Acabado

Yes as Yes I do?


----------



## Acabado

Cross posted.
I'm very happy for you guys.
I'ts happening. It's real.
So happy.


----------



## EI

acabado said:


> yes as yes i do?


*Yes!!! *


----------



## Acabado

Congrats B1. 
Were you nervous?


----------



## B1

Acabado said:


> Congrats B1.
> Were you nervous?


no, not nervous. I was bursting with excitement. You see, I never officially proposed to her some 29 years ago. It was just very unofficial then and not romantic at all. She never got that classic proposal the one she has always deserved. This time around I think I got it right.

I got her an Ipad too and when she opened it and turned it on I had a note that said .. "I love you, will you marry me " I was on my knees and asked her again because she was, I think, stunned.

It was a very nice moment.


----------



## B1

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> Give me strength, people, seems my wife deleted texts to and from toxic friend today.
> 
> Investigation mode 22 months past d-day.


crap...I hate to hear that CPA.... after all this time! scary too because that means your radar was already going off to even be checking texts. So sorry.


----------



## happyman64

B1 said:


> no, not nervous. I was bursting with excitement. You see, I never officially proposed to her some 29 years ago. It was just very unofficial then and not romantic at all. She never got that classic proposal the one she has always deserved. This time around I think I got it right.
> 
> I got her an Ipad too and when she opened it and turned it on I had a note that said .. "I love you, will you marry me " I was on my knees and asked her again because she was, I think, stunned.
> 
> It was a very nice moment.


I hope someone took a picture of that moment or right after!!! You guys have the best pics....


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> no, not nervous. I was bursting with excitement. You see, I never officially proposed to her some 29 years ago. It was just very unofficial then and not romantic at all. She never got that classic proposal the one she has always deserved. This time around I think I got it right.
> 
> I got her an Ipad too and when she opened it and turned it on I had a note that said .. "I love you, will you marry me " I was on my knees and asked her again because she was, I think, stunned.
> 
> It was a very nice moment.


You got it right, Baby, you got it right!  It took a few years, but who's counting!  I love you!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

So happy for you, EI and B1! What a wonderful memory to make together. Looking forward to the wedding pics.


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> We are going to "get married," again. On June 21st, 2014. It will be the weekend before our 30th wedding anniversary next year. Just the minister, me, B1, the kids, their significant others, and our grandson. We'll marry at Bernheim Forrest by the lake..... one of B1's favorite places to photograph and only about a 30 minute drive from our home. He "proposed," on one knee, with a 1 carat T.W. Past, Present and Future eternity band. I am so happy that there are simply no words to describe it. I never imagined that our life would take this kind of turn. I feel immeasurably blessed.
> 
> *NOW, * if only we could get *DIG* to officiate???


Gosh how I truly wish I could do that. You don't know what that would mean to me. Regret and I will be on our last family vacation in NY that weekend with her family here. I'm so happy for you both. This brings such a nice lightness to the end of my day. The beginning of my day I found myself counselling a motorcycle club Brother on facebook. He's been sober for a little over a month and is having trouble with forgiveness.

He asked me why God lets people get hurt over and over again. He said he's never felt accepted in any church and they've never been able to give him an answer to his question except to say "just believe". This was my answer...

"The question of the ages my Brother. Here's my take, and I'm probably one of the oddest cats to be a chaplain because I believe in God alone. I believe there was Jesus just as I believe there was Buddah...but everything leads to God no matter what you call him/her.
In my opinion the Creator...the Grand Architect of the Universe gave us free will. We are not His puppets nor are we His toys. Invariably that human will has the ability to hurt. Not just ourselves, but others as well. Some pain we have, we bring on ourselves. For instance, I chew Skoal. One day I may get cancer from it and I will suffer...but not because God caused it or could prevent it as that is how we are created. We all will die. There is no way to stop that progression from birth to death and the only thing we can really do about it is attempt to live our lives the best we can. To cause no harm and to do good by our fellow men and ourselves."

And this was his response..."The way you explained it is in a way that no one else has. Reading your explanation makes more sense than anything I have read or listened too. It actually feels like some of the burden and pain was lifted away."

I woke up and felt terrific before breakfast...now, I go to bed feeling just the same! Thank you EI & B1


----------



## EI

happyman64 said:


> I hope someone took a picture of that moment or right after!!! You guys have the best pics....


Well, that would have been nice, but the photographer was busy and it was just the two of us!  Besides, crying really isn't a good look for me, anyway!  LOL


----------



## CantSitStill

wow that is soo sweet  I would be so surpised, happy shocked oh wow, how cool..just the proposal alone soo romantic 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

*The human spirit can be amazing! *
B1 proposes to EI even though they both devastated each other in the past.

Not only have they begun to heal a whole family, they are a great inspiration to those that that may think their situation is hopeless. If anyone wants to get to the reconciliation point that B1 and EI are at they can easily read their threads and posts on this TAM forum. They have documented a lot of their experiences in detail and others can gain from that brutally honest information.

We have read about B1’s and EI’s forgiveness, EI’s diligent actions to help B1, her children, and herself, and have shown that how much reconciliation can be accomplished in just less than one year. One more observation from Blunt. B1 has taken another HUGE step in that he not only has forgiven EI but in addition he is now in the process of giving RESTORATION! That is amazing and shows strength that B1 got somewhere. It seems almost superhuman. *RESTORATION takes true love and grace!*

When I see the EI signature I now think of a new name of
*EI evolves into FI (FI =Filling up Inside)*

When I see the B1 signature I now think of a new name of 
*B1 = Bstrong*

It is very fitting that B1 started this thread titled RECONCILIATION!!


----------



## cpacan

EI and B1; congratulations! I'm happy for you, you are good people 

Thank you all for having me in your thoughts with your support, it ment a lot at a time when I was exhausted and prepared my mind for packing suitcases.

Update from me and some explanation (warning: lengthy post coming up, skip to bottom for ultra short summary ).

Untill sunday, we actually had 2 to 3 very good weeks. It felt like we loved each other, no doubts, just commitment. All good and I felt the peace within me for the first time in nearly two years. It's winter holidays this week for most people here.

Sunday; my wife and kids went for a 3-day holiday while I had to work. They would go and see her parents and some of my relatives with the kids. I am off work the next 3 days spending them with my kids, while my wife have to work.

Saturday she tells me that she plan to visit her toxic friend (BFF) on sunday. This is the friend that she confided in while in the affair. It was talk and messages between my wife and BFF that made me aware of the affair and delivered the physical evidence in the first place. 
BFF was in one or more affairs for 14 years and decided to leave her unsuspecting husband last year. They are divorced now, and she seems very happy with a new boyfriend and a new life. I think it's good for both her and her XH. I haven't spoken to BFF for nearly two years, though my wife says that she has completely changed.
My wife has had very limited and open interaction with BFF in this periode of time, because they both know, that I trigger from it - pretty much. We usually handle this with her being extremely open and commincative, and I have asked/demanded that she doesn't come to our home.

While I am alone in the house sunday night, thoughts start to bother me. I realize they are just thoughts and keep them under control. When she gets home (her parents house where they sleep during the vacation), she text me, that BFF is very sorry about all that happened and that she would very much like us to be able to talk again. We were all pretty close friends pre-affair.
Since I am really trying to let go of things now, I offered my wife to write BFF a letter, then we would see if there is a future relationship for us. I spend two days writing, explaining to her how much she had hurt and humiliated me in my own house, when she supported my wife during her affair. I have been very straight forward in my wording, and I end it with something like: I have a hard time figuring out how we can interact in the future considering all this deception, but if you have a suggestion, I am willing to listen with an open mind.

In my letter I also hinted at some things/events that she couldn't possibly know that I knew about - to test her openness and honesty.

I e-mailed the letter tuesdag morning. Tuesday evening, I receive a text from my wife: "What on earth have you written to her..? She has texted and called me for an hour now, but I haven't been able to answer, and I wanted to talk to you first before I return her call". I explained to her that I had only told BFF about my thoughts and feelings, and that she might get the expression that I haven't forgot her part in all this, but also that I will listen to her. My wife says that she will let us handle it our selves. Thank you ma'm 

Tuesday night, I check the call and text log for my wife's phone. Very obvious that communication exploded after I send the letter.

Now my thoughts start to plague me again. Why does communication increase upon BF reading my letter? Why do they need to syncronize stories and responses? What's BFF's thoughts about my wife's situation? Is her advice to my wife to divorce me? Etc etc.

And Margrace, if you made untill here, you are absolutely right, this is so exhausting and I was physical impacted for three days by this - I could litereally feel it in my stomacke, on my arms, my hands were shaking.

Wednesday when I had picked up my wife and kids at the ferry, and the kids were in bed in the evening, I checked the call log again and noticed two texts from my wife to BFF at 6.30 in the morning, in the holidays, and I thought WTF is going on?? I asked to see my wife's phone and told her I would very much like to see what they had been writing about since my letter. She handed it to me, no questions asked, but the two texts from the morning were missing. I asked her if she deleted any, she said no. I asked her if she had texted her this morning, she said no. These appears to be a very stupid answers, since she knows that I can verify it in 5 seconds. I told her I would very much like to see what was in the two texts from this morning, she looked very confused, but then remembered that she had texted her just to ask if she could call and didn't think about it. Why delete them? Just because they were nothing. She emmediatly offered to have BFF forward them to me. 

Everything sounds as if it could be true, and for the first time in months, we have been able to have a conversation about all that happened, how BFF was involved at what time etc. without it turning into an ugly argument. This is in it self very positive and good, and I am happy about that. To day, the day after... I just have this little nagging feeling about the two missing texts, wondering if I need to recover them.

I'll admit that it was very hard to relive the past two years when I wrote the letter. Especially the humiliation factor, which my wife and I didn't dwell much on in the aftermath was tooth-pulling. The thought of having dinner and laughing with people who know about the affair, when you don't, gives me the creeps. 
But I also look forward to hear the response from BFF on friday.

TLDR Summary:
I hate what infidelity has done to us, to me. I hate spending three days with the adrenalin pounding in my body, and my mind and brain about to explode because of one visit, two texts and a bad history of infidelity. 
Today, I'm better though. I will continue reading my book about forgiveness - oh, and think about what I'll do for valentines day today. I think I'll just give her a single, large, red rose - something without being too much.

Message: Think hard before deciding to reconcile or rebuild, it's tough, and rough for a long time past DD.


----------



## calvin

Happy Valentines day to all you love birds,I hope you all have a good one.
I'm very happy for you EI and B1,you guys are alright.
capacan,I'm sorry to hear alout your wive talking to the toxic friend again,I hope she realises how much this can hurt you.Hang in there man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

cpacan, so sorry you went thru all that..yesterday was so horrible for calvin and I...this rollercoater can be a bit much and I was totally losing my mind..hope you feel better today about the texts with your wife and her friend..i have to delete mine when my box gets too full.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

cpacan,
YES, those texts would bother me a lot. My immediate gut feeling is to get to them anyway you can, why delete them? But it's your gut you have to trust in. Sorry you had those rough days, God knows I still remember days like those, heart pounding and racing, thoughts that won't stop, it can drive you mad.

Personally, I think I would need to know what those texts said. I think there is a 50% chance they were just a rant because you ticked her friend off and she was complaining about you. The other 50%???


----------



## B1

Mr Blunt said:


> *The human spirit can be amazing! *
> B1 proposes to EI even though they both devastated each other in the past.
> 
> Not only have they begun to heal a whole family, they are a great inspiration to those that that may think their situation is hopeless. If anyone wants to get to the reconciliation point that B1 and EI are at they can easily read their threads and posts on this TAM forum. They have documented a lot of their experiences in detail and others can gain from that brutally honest information.
> 
> We have read about B1’s and EI’s forgiveness, EI’s diligent actions to help B1, her children, and herself, and have shown that how much reconciliation can be accomplished in just less than one year. One more observation from Blunt. B1 has taken another HUGE step in that he not only has forgiven EI but in addition he is now in the process of giving RESTORATION! That is amazing and shows strength that B1 got somewhere. It seems almost superhuman. *RESTORATION takes true love and grace!*
> 
> When I see the EI signature I now think of a new name of
> *EI evolves into FI (FI =Filling up Inside)*
> 
> When I see the B1 signature I now think of a new name of
> *B1 = Bstrong*
> 
> It is very fitting that B1 started this thread titled RECONCILIATION!!


Thank you Mr B.
I know I have posted about my treatment of EI in the past, PRE-A. One thing that no one knows, and never really will, is how I destroyed her spirit. Yes, she was wrong to have an A, no excuses, no justification, it was wrong. She owns it, is sorry for it and is to this day still working on making things right. She still goes out and sends pix back, she still askes me to review her FB, makes sure I know her passwords and logs in sometimes just to show me things.
Her phone is left unattended most all the time.

Pre-A, I just destroyed her spirit, her value of herself. It wasn't intentional, but it did happen. I will let this wonderful woman know she is loved every day, that she is cherished and adored. SHE DESERVES IT. Even though she doesn't feel like she deserves it and battles this daily, I will drive it home.


I still have some hurdles to get over and EI still battles with what she did, with forgiveness and self loathing. Hopefully this proposal will help her with that . I want and need a strong, happy, healthy, loving wife. I choose EI and she chooses me!


----------



## cpacan

B1 said:


> cpacan,
> YES, those texts would bother me a lot. My immediate gut feeling is to get to them anyway you can, why delete them? But it's your gut you have to trust in. Sorry you had those rough days, God knows I still remember days like those, heart pounding and racing, thoughts that won't stop, it can drive you mad.
> 
> Personally, I think I would need to know what those texts said. I think there is a 50% chance they were just a rant because you ticked her friend off and she was complaining about you. The other 50%???


I agree 100% with your 50/50 assessment. I am leaning towards trying to recover them, it would make very happy to see that the messages were just "can I call?" or "rant/answer to rant".


----------



## StarGazer101

I haven't posted in a while mainly because I have been having such conflicting thoughts - I can veer from cheerful optimism about the future to deep despair that I don't have the strength to live this life ..... it seems within minutes. margrace's comment about exhaustion really struck a chord - I thought that when I finally knew the "truth" that I would be somehow more complete and able to go forth with strength. 

After spending 9 months "digging" with passion and purpose, and now feeling I know as much as I need/or want to; I find myself in another strange land with no map or compass. I catch glimpses of a sunshiney, laughter-filled oasis on the horizon but often find myself shrinking from the thought of negotiating the mountain passes that will take me there. Sometimes the pull to journey to that green and pleasant land is irresistible and I could run barefoot towards it. Sometimes I think it is really only a mirage and it would be foolish to even pull on my walking boots; and sometimes I just think I'd like to find a cave and hibernate for 6 months. Reconciliation really is a journey for the brave

I did want to say congratulations to EI and B1 .... as ever you provide hope and inspiration. Your story is beautiful and you deserve every happiness. The level of honesty and openness you have worked to achieve is something I think we all aspire to, and is more meaningful than any self-help book because it is real. You are my heroes. 

@cpacan I am so sorry to hear that you are having to experience these feelings after having gone through so much time with this. It just isn't fair. My thoughts are with you.

Happy Valentines Day all - a good day to just go with the power of love. We have begun with champagne in bed, a lovely Indian meal to look forward to later and a game of Monogamy to finish off (if we don't eat too much) :smthumbup:


----------



## EI

StarGazer101 said:


> I haven't posted in a while mainly because I have been having such conflicting thoughts - I can veer from cheerful optimism about the future to deep despair that I don't have the strength to live this life ..... it seems within minutes. margrace's comment about exhaustion really struck a chord - I thought that when I finally knew the "truth" that I would be somehow more complete and able to go forth with strength.


*StarGazer,* I don't think I've welcomed you and your husband, Lister, to the "R" thread. I believe that you started posting in the days just before our son's surgery and I was not feeling well. I'm glad that you and he have found TAM... AND this thread. I think that you may find that posting, together, whether it is on this thread or on any other thread, that you will, both, find it to be a useful tool in reconciliation. I liken it to being able to have an open discussion with my husband, with a whole gallery of experienced mediators to help guide us through it. Actually, I've never worded it that way before, but that really is what it's like here. I know that B1 and I would not be where we are in our reconciliation if we had not posted our journey on TAM. I don't think that I would have ever fully understood how the depth of my betrayal had hurt B1. When a marriage is seriously troubled, for whatever reasons, I think that certain individuals go into self-preservation mode and fail to think of the impact that our actions have on others..... because, well, we are thinking of ourselves..... As much as it hurts me to admit that to others it may, perhaps, hurt me to admit that to myself even more as I have always prided myself on being a caring and unselfish person. But, I cannot deny that what I did to B1, and our children, was the most cruel and selfish thing that I have ever done in my entire life and I am deeply ashamed and sorry for hurting them..... and myself.



StarGazer101 said:


> I did want to say congratulations to EI and B1 .... as ever you provide hope and inspiration. Your story is beautiful and you deserve every happiness. The level of honesty and openness you have worked to achieve is something I think we all aspire to, and is more meaningful than any self-help book because it is real. You are my heroes.


Thank you so much for your kind words. That is extremely high praise. And, while I understand the praise for B1, it feels a bit awkward for me to be praised in light of what brought us here in the first place. I do understand that it is not the betrayal, the lying and the deception that I am being praised for, but for the way the we have, both, handled ourselves in the aftermath. I don't think that I can take credit for any of that. B1 has been nothing short of, as Mr. Blunt put it, *"Superhuman"* throughout the last 8 1/2 months. It has been his lead that I have followed since his discovery of my infidelity. I can honestly say that I don't feel worthy of the incredible compassion, mercy, forgiveness and LOVE that he has shown to me. Because of this, I am having a difficult time forgiving myself, in spite of the fact that B1 seems to have forgiven me. I know that I am blessed to be loved by him and will spend the rest of my life trying to be the kind of wife that he truly deserves. I remember the changes in him immediately after D-Day # 2 last May. He was a changed man (for the better)..... long story.... it's all here on TAM. I didn't think that I was in love with him, any longer, but I was keenly aware of the fact that he was a very different man, now. I remember thinking that he would make his "next wife" a wonderful husband. It kind of stung. I felt so hurt, sad, and even angry, that he couldn't have "heard" me sooner. Then, I thought, "Like Hell he'll make his _next wife_ a wonderful husband, he'll make _me_ a wonderful husband. I'll be his _next wife._" Of course, then _I_ had a lot of work to do..... a lot of work. I had to become someone that _he _thought it would be wonderful (and safe) being married to, again! We've both been "working" at this for the last 8 1/2 months. It's been a challenge, at times, but it has been so rewarding, too!



StarGazer101 said:


> Happy Valentines Day all - a good day to just go with the power of love. We have begun with champagne in bed, a lovely Indian meal to look forward to later and a game of Monogamy to finish off (if we don't eat too much) :smthumbup:


I think that sounds like a beautiful way to begin Valentine's Day! Happy V-Day to all of you, _Reconcilers_..... no matter what stage of reconciliation you may or may not be in. If you're reading this..... you're one of us!

Take care,
EI


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## ChangingMe

I feel behind on this thread -I hate that! 

B1 and EI, I am so happy for you both. You really deserve each other and a long life of happiness together. BTW, WTG B1! You did good!!!!! EI, like I told you, if B1 thinks you deserve something -then you deserve it! I know it's hard to accept that, but you really need to start offering yourself some of that same forgiveness that B1 is pouring on you. 

cpacan, I am so sorry for the last few days. I agree that, odds are, the texts are probably griping, but I too would have to know what they said, just to put my mind at ease. I really am sorry about this. Infidelity is awful. I hate how you can make strides, and then it takes so little to knock you back down. I see it happen with DD and me too (not with me deleting things, I promise!), but with the whole name & infidelity thing on TV and other triggers. 

SG and Lister, I think your Valentines sounds wonderful. I hope it is healing for you both. Hang in there SG. I know it's hard. I too would like to go to sleep for a year or so and then wake up -and I'm the WS in my case. R is the hardest thing I've ever done, and I know it is even harder for my husband. 

Calvin and CSS, I'M exhausted from yesterday! I am SO glad you both are in a better space today. I knew you two would get there, you always do, but the drops in the roller coaster are so rough for you both. Hang in there. Know that, even when you don't totally believe it, the rest of us know for certain that you both love each other and belong together. We'll keep reminded you of that whenever you need it. 

Happy Valentine's Day to the rest of you! DD and I aren't celebrating, but he's always hated this day. I went to my son's class party, and we gave the kids Valentine's gifts this morning, so that has been fun. And even if there isn't a big celebration, I will still be spending Valentine's in my house with my husband, and that makes it an amazing Valentine's in itself.


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## calvin

I cant wait ti take CSS out tonight,been looking foward to it for a couple weeks
CSS lost her Grandma a few years ago at this time,he Grandpa die a couple years ago,its my dead brothers Birthday and last year on V D that nut job was calling me like every ten minutes.
We're gonna have fun tonight and start working on some great valentines day memories.
I hope you all jave a great evening,I know I will.
jh? Happy VD day to you and the missus.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Last year on Valentines Day was like a nightmare..it was literally scary and it was real not a movie and me and Calvin felt our family was in danger..I had to play calm and get the kids out of the house ASAP without them knowing why. This year I have decided to try to change this day..it's not just last year but for many reasons I have always hated Valentines Day but you know what? It is time for me to get over it already..altho I have this sinking feeling like something bad is gonna happen, kinda like Friday the 13th I feel like Valentines Day is bad luck. How silly is that? So for my sanity I am going to have a damn good time  I'm taking Valentines day back 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

by the way.. I've been a bit sensitive lately , hormone issues but anyway I'm just gonna ask this: Why haven't you guys been coming to my thread anymore? I'm not mad, just sensitive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Gosh I'm sorry, been so touchy lately
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

EI said:


> We are going to "get married," again. On June 21st, 2014. It will be the weekend before our 30th wedding anniversary next year. Just the minister, me, B1, the kids, their significant others, and our grandson. We'll marry at Bernheim Forrest by the lake..... one of B1's favorite places to photograph and only about a 30 minute drive from our home. He "proposed," on one knee, with a 1 carat T.W. Past, Present and Future eternity band. I am so happy that there are simply no words to describe it. I never imagined that our life would take this kind of turn. I feel immeasurably blessed.
> 
> *NOW, * if only we could get *DIG* to officiate???


literally sitting at my desk crying now! so sweet, so amazing, so right. 

two committed people who are willing to be honest and vulnerable *can *stand up out of all this crap and hurt, they _*can*_ create an open, loving marriage.

thanks for being you, B1 and EI!


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## margrace

cpacan said:


> EI and B1; congratulations! I'm happy for you, you are good people
> 
> Thank you all for having me in your thoughts with your support, it ment a lot at a time when I was exhausted and prepared my mind for packing suitcases.
> 
> ...And Margrace, if you made untill here, you are absolutely right, this is so exhausting and I was physical impacted for three days by this - I could litereally feel it in my stomacke, on my arms, my hands were shaking.
> 
> ...TLDR Summary:
> I hate what infidelity has done to us, to me. I hate spending three days with the adrenalin pounding in my body, and my mind and brain about to explode because of one visit, two texts and a bad history of infidelity.
> Today, I'm better though. I will continue reading my book about forgiveness - oh, and think about what I'll do for valentines day today. I think I'll just give her a single, large, red rose - something without being too much.
> 
> Message: Think hard before deciding to reconcile or rebuild, it's tough, and rough for a long time past DD.


i'm following, cpacan, and yes, it's tough and rough.

i remember in every part of my body that awful adrenaline, the crazy anxiety, the physically-sick feeling when you are forced to see (again) that you aren't wrong about that thing that you really really wanted to be wrong about, because *there it is*: the text (or the deleted text, or whatever).

i'm so sorry that you had to visit that place again  

and i'm glad that today is better.....


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> by the way.. I've been a bit sensitive lately , hormone issues but anyway I'm just gonna ask this: Why haven't you guys been coming to my thread anymore? I'm not mad, just sensitive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





CantSitStill said:


> Gosh I'm sorry, been so touchy lately
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am so, so, so sorry, CSS. I just sent you a huge text message. Please don't apologize. Honestly, it is best just to ask when someone has hurt your feelings rather than to let it fester and assume the worst. The truth is that I feel like I am still trying to catch my breath since before the holidays and have yet to catch up. I don't even feel like I post on this thread enough and I feel guilty when I don't. I very seldom post on any threads other than this one, anymore, because when I do, I end up spending waaaay too much time on TAM. Several weeks ago, B1 "gently" suggested that I was spending too much time here and that it wasn't always in our best interest when I do. I tend to get very emotional and upset when I spend a lot of time reading different stories and then I bring all of that negative emotion back to our own relationship. B1 and I get along much better and make more progress in our own "R" when we (mostly me) set reasonable limits on our TAM time. 

With all of that having been said, you and Calvin are near and dear to our hearts and have been since the beginning of our time here on TAM. You were my first TAM role model and I stalked you and your thread for a long time before I even had the courage to "speak" to you. Then, as soon as I did, you and Calvin, both, got banned! LOL  I know that I need to make a point of "logging on," which I don't always do when I am just reading through the threads, so that I can stay current on your thread. I miss a lot of "good stuff" in the private section, because I usually only log on when I am, actually, "posting" here and then I immediately log back off. But, in order for B1 and I to offer you and Calvin the same support that you and he have been giving us, I WILL make a point of staying current on your thread in the future. Please know that it was never my intention to make you feel slighted. I hope you know that if you ever need me that all you have to do is pick up your phone and call me........ anytime, day or night. 

You're my TAM sister!

~EI


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## CantSitStill

thank you EI now my eyes are welling up with tears again. I understand, I really do..for a while I had to stay on my own thread only because I was getting too overwhelmed with everyone elses. I remember that first time I posted in your thread  yeah we were all talking dirty in Bandit's thread..all just silly fun but Calvin and I landed up banned for it..I try to behave as best as I can now..lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rags

Awww, you guys ...

TAM can eat your time. I tend to limit myself to every few days. Means I miss stuff, but (unlikely as it sounds for someone who works in IT) there is a life to be lived outside of the Internet.

Posts get read, even if they're not replied to.

(I don't flatter myself than anyone waits for/notices my posts - I'm an interloper, but I project the fact that I have a life onto other people ...)


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## CantSitStill

I know it's silly of me, I just haven't been myself lately
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rags

If you feel it, it's real.

A real feeling.

Doesn't mean it reflects external reality, but that not the point. If you feel it, the feeling is real, and must be dealt with.


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## TBT

B1 said:


> EI said YES!!!!





EI said:


> We are going to "get married," again. On June 21st, 2014. It will be the weekend before our 30th wedding anniversary next year. Just the minister, me, B1, the kids, their significant others, and our grandson. We'll marry at Bernheim Forrest by the lake..... one of B1's favorite places to photograph and only about a 30 minute drive from our home. He "proposed," on one knee, with a 1 carat T.W. Past, Present and Future eternity band. I am so happy that there are simply no words to describe it. I never imagined that our life would take this kind of turn. I feel immeasurably blessed.
> 
> *NOW, * if only we could get *DIG* to officiate???


Outstanding!


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## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> by the way.. I've been a bit sensitive lately , hormone issues but anyway I'm just gonna ask this: Why haven't you guys been coming to my thread anymore? I'm not mad, just sensitive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hey css, i am so glad that you posted this  i am just catching on to the fact that you and some others have your own threads -- i didn't know that until recently because when i log on, i pretty much go right to this one.

when i started with TAM, i realized right away how much i needed a place to connect to other people who were going through this infidelity awfulness -- and where my perspectives and my feelings seemed to fit in. once i found this thread, i kind of stuck with it.

once in a while, i do explore a little... but usually i don't have too much time so i just look for this thread and assume that i am catching up with everyone here.

for all of you that have your own threads, i'm looking forward to finding a time to read through and find out more about your story. i truly would enjoy having more time to do that.


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## margrace

StarGazer101 said:


> ...margrace's comment about exhaustion really struck a chord - I thought that when I finally knew the "truth" that I would be somehow more complete and able to go forth with strength.
> 
> After spending 9 months "digging" with passion and purpose, and now feeling I know as much as I need/or want to; I find myself in another strange land with no map or compass. I catch glimpses of a sunshiney, laughter-filled oasis on the horizon but often find myself shrinking from the thought of negotiating the mountain passes that will take me there. Sometimes the pull to journey to that green and pleasant land is irresistible and I could run barefoot towards it. Sometimes I think it is really only a mirage and it would be foolish to even pull on my walking boots; and sometimes I just think I'd like to find a cave and hibernate for 6 months. Reconciliation really is a journey for the brave...


wow, you really summed it up, sg. yes, me too -- i often see or _feel_ the possibility of something joyful ahead. i feel a little burst of it sometimes. 

other times, i'm in that "no compass" place and just feel really tired.

at the bottom of it all, i believe that we are moving forward. i would not have lots of confidence in this except that counseling does seem to be helping. the kind of openness that the WSs on this thread have shown will be very challenging for my fWH (as it is for them, too!) -- but i do respect and appreciate that he is working toward it. i have my challenges too


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## CantSitStill

This place has gone too quiet today
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

I hate getting yelled at.


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## CantSitStill

ok I won't yell at ya..did someone yell at you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I hate getting yelled at.


Whats up bobka?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Well for me I feel much better today. I have been having womenly mood issues along with troubles with Calvin and it's been a bad week. Last night was so nice ohh and I just remembered I have leftover steak to eat  We really made this a great valentines day after last years nightmare..n.ot only did the exposom screw it up I remember I got into a spat with my co-teacher after our preschool party..anyway that is the PAST! we are good now 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Drama? Ok,I'm on my way home in the mood for a fight.
Come on CSS,lets give em what they want.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

What troubles with me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Drama? I think the dryer is going out. Hate to have to replace it. DAMN! LOL


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## ChangingMe

Ok, I'll post. DD and I ended up having an interesting Valentines. We didn't celebrate in any way, because he said he didn't want to. He's always hated V Day, so this really is nothing new. We ate dinner as family, and then after the kids went to bed, we got in the hot tub. 

We had a good, honest talk. Several times during it he apologized, because he said he felt what he was saying was mean, but I told him I understood that I put him in the place that he's in. And there was good stuff mixed with the painful. 

He told me that he is really wanting to get away from the A stuff and not focus on it for a while. It's consumed him for 8 months, and he's tired of it having that power. He has 3 things he wants to focus on: flying, music, and his job. The only one I can really help with is the music -he wants a couple days to himself to record music. So the first weekend in March, I think he is going to go by himself to his parents' lakehouse and record music all weekend. I'll take care of the kids, maybe even stay with my parents' for a night (though I have some PTSD things that come up for me when I think of that, since it reminds me of when I lived there last summer). But that will give him the time he needs to record. 

As for not focusing on the A, I am partly excited at that prospect but also wary of it. It sounds so nice to not rehash and to just have a break from it -it has been the enormous elephant in the room for nearly a year -but I am also nervous that, if we don't talk, that his feelings will build back up and he'll explode again. He doesn't think that will happen. He said he had some bad mind movies yesterday, and he was able to stop them. He is doing quite well off his meds, though he seems a little more on-edge than is typical of him. But no noticeable depression or rage like he had in the fall. 

I asked him what he needed from me, and in respect to not talking about the A. He took it to mean in general, and he said nothing, that he does not feel like I owe him anything. That maybe he's weird, but he's always been happy in our relationship and all he wanted was a companion to go through life with and have fun with. He at one point said he forgave me, but I'm not really taking that to mean what I would love for it to mean. He then told me that, ideally, he would like us to divorce, but spend the rest of our lives together as a couple. He apologized, saying he knows that's mean, but marriage seems stupid now and he doesn't want to celebrate anniversaries or anything. He does want me with him though, but where we are together by choice, and where he can walk away easily if I do anything in the future that makes he choose to. 

I don't want to divorce; I want to stay married to this man. But, honestly, it meant a lot to me that he said he wanted me with him for the rest of his life. That's a huge switch from the numerous times I've been told he's only staying because of the children. 

So, not 100% what I wanted to hear on Valentine's, but still words that meant a lot to me. And then we did go inside and consummated the night. I didn't expect any VDay love, so that was very sweet too. Well, actually, it was a little more wild than sweet. 

I love him so much. I hate how my actions have changed him, but I still love who he is, and he is my favorite person to be with. I was so thankful to spend Valentines with him.

Oh, and one last thing that I also posted on DD's thread. As I've mentioned, he's working to get his pilot's license. He has to take a huge exam for it that is a big step in being able to fly. He told me last night that he is planning to take it on the anniversary of DDay in June, so that he can remember that day for something positive. I think this is a great idea. I'd already been dreading it, and trying to come up with something to do, but couldn't. It obviously is not a day to celebrate, but it is something that will be on our minds all day. This gives him something to do that will take a while, will be away from me, and is something we can (hopefully) celebrate about that evening when he passes it.

Alright. I'll shut up now. But you guys asked for someone to post.


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## CantSitStill

Sounds like a great talk CM..compared to how he was before, these are big steps he's taking. Calvin texted me today that he is done with the what ifs and that he is really thinking we really are soulmates..now I can breathe better. Oh and to answer your question Calvin you know how we were both very quiet all week and I thought you were going to a lawyer for a divorce....that's what I meant by troubles with you  I over reacted again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Wow CM your posts are getting really long like EI's lol ...imagine us girls all together sometime..oh my gosh we are talkers lol it would be fun tho
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal

CantSitStill said:


> Wow CM your posts are getting really long like EI's lol ...imagine us girls all together sometime..oh my gosh we are talkers lol it would be fun tho
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's not enough bandwidth...


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## CantSitStill

Ok Bobka spill it...what happened?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

cm, so glad to hear that valentine's day brought those good moments for you & DD. you are so unshrinking in your honesty and ooenness... it's SO clear how much you love him.

and bobka -- yes, what happened?


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Nothing has happened. That's the point.


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## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> He then told me that, ideally, he would like us to divorce, but spend the rest of our lives together as a couple. He apologized, saying he knows that's mean, but marriage seems stupid now and he doesn't want to celebrate anniversaries or anything. He does want me with him though, but where we are together by choice, and where he can walk away easily if I do anything in the future that makes he choose to.


You know CM, recently the Mrs and I had a very similar conversation and both if us agreed that marriage is not the defining tie in our relationship. The desire to stay together willingly and voluntarily is much more important. So I can actually see where DD is coming from very easily. With the divorce rate so high and the infidelity rate even higher marriage seems almost like using bubble gum to plug a leak in a dam. I agree that DD saying he wants to spend the rest of his life with you is so much more important than saying he wants to stay married.

Oh and you can help him with his flying and his job by being the supporting partner you already are. You know that old saying that behind every great man is a great woman? That is actually more true than you might realize. At least from my perspective I wouldn't do half of what I do if I didn't have the Mrs there next to me encouraging me all the way.


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## StarGazer101

CM I'm glad you can take the positives from what DD is saying... he clearly still cares a great deal for you. 

I think I can understand where he's coming from. I love Lister and I've always known that I want to stay with him but the marriage means very little to me now. I can't wear my rings the thought of doing so disgusts me and I will never celebrate my wedding anniversary again. I don't feel that I want to get divorced but I don't feel married in the way that I used to - he and his AP were the "couple" for the last 3 years of that marriage and I can't forget that or pretend that those years didn't happen.

From very early on after DDay I felt these things, and as time has gone on and we've looked at not only the A but the marriage pre A, those feelings have only strengthened. What I have said that I want is a new marriage in every sense. 

I originally said I wanted to renew our vows about a month after DD1 and we started looking at making arrangements to do so. Then I found out that when he'd chosen to stay with me it hadn't been love that motivated him it was fear of change. He had continued contacting her, and in his heart he still loved her. While he was making love to me and telling me he was sorry; he was still thinking that she was there waiting for him if it didn't work out with me. The arrangements for renewing our vows went on hold because it would have been another empty gesture and I was horrified and humiliated that he could have been even contemplating doing this while feeling the way he did.

Now after all the pain and the work that we've done I would like us to renew our vows; but it must have real meaning. I've said the very least I deserve is a proposal that comes from the heart AND an engagement ring that symbolises our new beginning and real commitment (_so clearly it's going to be expensive_ ) 

I've told him not to even think of doing this until it's been *at least* a year since he had any doubts about his love and future with me, so that it can have real meaning for him as well. Only then will I agree to resume making plans to renew our vows. 

If we do make that happy day that will be the anniversary that I will celebrate in the future, and it really will be worth celebrating. Until then we'll be legally married but not in my heart.


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## calvin

Morning.
SG,take your time,dont do anything til you feel comfortable.It takes awhile until the hurt is bearable.
I thought about renewing our vows also but I just cant do it...ever.We already did it and to do it again just seems wrong too me.
I dont want any more vows or promises.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

calvin said:


> Morning.
> SG,take your time,dont do anything til you feel comfortable.It takes awhile until the hurt is bearable.
> I thought about renewing our vows also but I just cant do it...ever.We already did it and to do it again just seems wrong too me.
> I dont want any more vows or promises.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is how brief it can be said, really.

We wedded at city hall 12 years ago, when we had our daughter, we confirmed it in church 5 years later in front of our families. 

"...to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, _or you decide to cheat on me again_". Sounds odd, doesn't it?

Well, guess I'm just in a bad mood today, but that's not going to change the fact, that I truly think it's great that others can find it in their hearts to renew the pledge.


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## calvin

cpacan said:


> This is how brief it can be said, really.
> 
> We wedded at city hall 12 years ago, when we had our daughter, we confirmed it in church 5 years later in front of our families.
> 
> "...to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, _or you decide to cheat on me again_". Sounds odd, doesn't it?
> 
> Well, guess I'm just in a bad mood today, but that's not going to change the fact, that I truly think it's great that others can find it in their hearts to renew the pledge.


Everyone is different and what works for some wont work for others.if a couple wants to renew their vows,more power too them.
I get what your saying cpa,"til death do us part or until you cheat on me again".
I dont want to exchange vows again and take that chance,even if it is one in a trillion.
Other than that,been feeling pretty decent lately.
Hope youre well man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone.
Having bad week so didn't want to post and dampen the mood around here.
Had my laser surgery on Monday, that went well, no sexy time for a month!!!
Not sure is the treatment has effected my hormones or if I really am In a glitch at the moment. Just feel very low, sensitive and questioning everything! Even questioning my love for H and wondering if we really can make it.
H is doing everything he can really. We have both had a week off so he's been super busy around the house and really taking care of me.

I had a meltdown on V Day. Just felt absolutely horrid and consumed by the wretched 'A'. I sort of feel sorry for H in a way. He's really doing his best to reassure me but there are some days when nothing can be said or done to lift my spirits. I hate feeling like this, and am wondering if I'm in a bit of a depression. I might visit my GP next week for a chat.

Congratulations to EI and B1, what lovely news. :smthumbup:

CCS could you post a link to your thread please.

Everyone else, hope you're in a good place today, even though I don't always comment on your individual posts I keep you all in my thoughts and prayers.

Love and peace
DG
X


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> Gosh I'm sorry, been so touchy lately
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Me too!
I'm bursting into tears for the slightest thing


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## bfree

SG,

You said that in his heart Lister still loved his AP after Dday 1. I need to correct you there. What Lister had for her was NOT love. It was infatuation built on fantasy otherwise known as limerence. It can't be love because love is based on commitment. If he had committed to her he would be with her. But he couldn't commit to her simply because if he had it would have shattered the fantasy image of her in his mind. This is exactly why most relationships resulting from infidelity collapse under their own weight. You certainly have every right and should be upset about the betrayal but you need to distinguish between love and limerence because there is a huge difference.

And I hope this doesn't come off as too misogynistic but for a man commitment is everything. It has often been said that women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers of commitment. I can tell you that from this man's perspective that saying is 100% accurate. My commitment to my wife is everything to me. Of course I love her but my love is nothing without my commitment. Even after everything my ex did to me I still loved her. Of course I hated her too but the feelings of love were still there. But my commitment to her was broken. I believe that is the hardest thing for a man to rebuild, even harder than the trust. So while Lister may have been infatuated with his AP I do not believe he ever really loved her because there was in fact no commitment. And IMO, without it there can not be love in a man's heart.


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## MrMathias

bfree said:


> But my commitment to her was broken. I believe that is the hardest thing for a man to rebuild, even harder than the trust. So while Lister may have been infatuated with his AP I do not believe he ever really loved her because there was in fact no commitment. And IMO, without it there can not be love in a man's heart.


That's a very disheartening post for me to read, because if there's one thing I know is gone it's my commitment to my DS.


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## bfree

DrMathias said:


> That's a very disheartening post for me to read, because if there's one thing I know is gone it's my commitment to my DS.


But I firmly believe that commitment can be rebuilt but only after trust has been (mostly) restored. Remember though that my opinion is that no one should ever trust anyone else 100% anyway. 98% is the most any amount of trust should be given. I also believe that trust and commitment are completely separate but too often foolishly thought of as one and the same. If you think about how you first got together with Mrs M, first you were infatuated, then as you grew to know her better (trust) you started thinking more long term (commitment.) That same process can be used to (re)build a relationship as well. While I think its more difficult to rebuild a relationship that has been damaged by betrayal I think the history of the relationship can outweigh the difficulties and the new bond will be stronger because it is built on reality and not a false image.


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## margrace

interesting comments.

valentine's day felt a little empty. i kept remembering last year. fWH was captivated by AP then. i was beginning to listen to my gut. he did not get me a card. i knew, i knew.

something is gone for me, too, but i'm not quite sure what to call it. it's not love -- i love fWH. trust? yes, it's gone (for now, at least) but i already knew that.

maybe i'm just tired.


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## MrMathias

bfree said:


> But I firmly believe that commitment can be rebuilt but only after trust has been (mostly) restored. Remember though that my opinion is that no one should ever trust anyone else 100% anyway. 98% is the most any amount of trust should be given. I also believe that trust and commitment are completely separate but too often foolishly thought of as one and the same. If you think about how you first got together with Mrs M, first you were infatuated, then as you grew to know her better (trust) you started thinking more long term (commitment.) That same process can be used to (re)build a relationship as well. While I think its more difficult to rebuild a relationship that has been damaged by betrayal I think the history of the relationship can outweigh the difficulties and the new bond will be stronger because it is built on reality and not a false image.


That sounds reasonable, thanks for the clarification.


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## daisygirl 41

margrace said:


> interesting comments.
> 
> valentine's day felt a little empty. i kept remembering last year. fWH was captivated by AP then. i was beginning to listen to my gut. he did not get me a card. i knew, i knew.
> 
> something is gone for me, too, but i'm not quite sure what to call it. it's not love -- i love fWH. trust? yes, it's gone (for now, at least) but i already knew that.
> 
> maybe i'm just tired.


(((((Hugs)))))
Feeling the same!
It stinks
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

DrMathias said:


> That's a very disheartening post for me to read, because if there's one thing I know is gone it's my commitment to my DS.


I was uncommited for 9 over months after DDay. Granted, my wife was "gone", heartbroken but deeply in love with an unaviable man right after DDay and we were getting a D as a result. She snaped back to reality and asked me to put the D on hold at 3mo mark. I still was "gone" for six solid months until I started really to believe her and "decided" actively to commit and start actively R. I never stopped loving her tough even I was devastated.
I don't pretend it's you case, will be your case. I've read countless stories last three years and the outcomes are unpredictable. I only tell you it's possible, becasue it hapened to us. I put it on my wife's stuborness and complete determination that we are together now. This day I still can't believe she was able to put up with my detachment, my walls, my self focus, my disdain, my give a sh!t attitude, even my cruelty for so long to make me "believe". When I started lurking sites like this and reading material I laughted at 180, I was a natural born 180er.
That you are not commited now is just the only natural response to your wife's infidelity and cruel false R. A different response would be hardly understandable. You get to know who this woman is.

Wish you luck no matter the path you take.


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## calvin

For small creatures such as we
tthe vastness is bearable only through love.
- Carl Sagan
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> (((((Hugs)))))
> Feeling the same!
> It stinks
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hugs right back!


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## margrace

calvin said:


> For small creatures such as we
> tthe vastness is bearable only through love.
> - Carl Sagan
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


omg yes. that is perfect, calvin. thank you.


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## calvin

margrace said:


> omg yes. that is perfect, calvin. thank you.


It rings true to me,in this crazy world the last line of defense is a wall of love.
For me anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> Morning.
> SG,take your time,dont do anything til you feel comfortable.It takes awhile until the hurt is bearable.
> I thought about renewing our vows also but I just cant do it...ever.We already did it and to do it again just seems wrong too me.
> I dont want any more vows or promises.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel instead of renewing our vows in a traditional setting or whatever, I would rather renew to him every single day that I will not break our marriage vows. I'd rather keep it personal between just him and me. The wedding thing triggers me out. We were so happy and we meant all of those vows. Now after what happened it hurts me that I lost my way. I am renewing my love to him every day. I know myself I won't break what we have ever again. Some day he will realise how serious my love for him really is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

No vows,no promises.
Just cant do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> No vows,no promises.
> Just cant do that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


great attitude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

The biggest reason we are renewing vows goes way back to the beginning of our relationship. I never proposed to EI, and she, in many ways, just thought I married her because she wanted to get married not because I wanted to. She never felt special.

Hopefully I fixed that this past Wed.  I wanted EI to know even with all the mess we both made that I wanted her, that I choose her and the I want to be her husband. So, I proposed to her and we will renew our vows next year.

It really doesn't have as much to do with the A as it does with our overall marriage. It is important to me that EI feels and knows that I want to be her husband and I want her to be my wife.

So, in our case, renewing is a little different.
It just doesn't have as much to do with the A as one would think.


----------



## calvin

I'm not mad,I just dont want any promises of love or any vows,I dodnt see the big deal.
If a couple wants to to that then great for them.
I cant really explain it.
I'd feel very ucomfortable doing it,it's just something I dont want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> great attitude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tried,very hard.
My request for help fell on deaf ears.
I just cant do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Sniff sniff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

bandit.45 said:


> Sniff sniff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Smelling your underarms again?
Just put some damn deoderant on already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

No... you all are making me cry. All this talk of love and committment and gooey goo. 

And I do use deodorant thank you Mr. Smells Like Acetolene.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> I tried,very hard.
> My request for help fell on deaf ears.
> I just cant do that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ok then, feelin the love
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> ok then, feelin the love
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I cant do the vows,just cant.
You hinted about it but its too much for me
Has nothing to do with how much I love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bandit.45 said:


> No... you all are making me cry. All this talk of love and committment and gooey goo.
> 
> And I do use deodorant thank you Mr. Smells Like Acetolene.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I smell like a spring breeze off a country lake after a gentle rain.
Ask CSS.
Some reason I think you smell like White Castle farts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Sniff sniff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Long time no post on the "R" thread, Bandit! Well, wait a minute.............???  Have you _ever_ posted on the "R" thread or did you just used to post _mean stuff_ about me on my original thread??? :scratchhead: LOL, it's okay, I don't hold grudges....  And, well, I've sort of grown fond of you .......... you ol' curmudgeon!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

EI said:


> Long time no post on the "R" thread, Bandit! Well, wait a minute.............???  Have you _ever_ posted on the "R" thread or did you just used to post _mean stuff_ about me on my original thread??? :scratchhead: LOL, it's okay, I don't hold grudges....  And, well, I've sort of grown fond of you .......... you ol' curmudgeon!!!


Honestly EI bandit hated me..it's understandable but then is ex never gave a damn about how bad she hurt him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Rags said:


> Awww, you guys ...
> 
> 
> Posts get read, even if they're not replied to.
> 
> (I don't flatter myself than anyone waits for/notices my posts - I'm an interloper, but I project the fact that I have a life onto other people ...)


No interlopers on this thread, Rags! Everyone is welcome..... everyone counts. Every post is noticed. None us would be here if we didn't need and want the support and opinions of others. 

I do think it's very cool that you "have a life!" That makes me a little jealous. B1 and I "had a life," once....... then, we had *...... kids*


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> But I firmly believe that commitment can be rebuilt but only after trust has been (mostly) restored. Remember though that my opinion is that no one should ever trust anyone else 100% anyway. 98% is the most any amount of trust should be given. I also believe that trust and commitment are completely separate but too often foolishly thought of as one and the same. If you think about how you first got together with Mrs M, first you were infatuated, then as you grew to know her better (trust) you started thinking more long term (commitment.) That same process can be used to (re)build a relationship as well. While I think its more difficult to rebuild a relationship that has been damaged by betrayal I think the history of the relationship can outweigh the difficulties and the new bond will be stronger because it is built on reality and not a false image.





DrMathias said:


> That sounds reasonable, thanks for the clarification.


DrMathias, welcome to the "R" thread. I'm encouraged that you are "visiting" a thread that is named "Reconciliation." I've been following both your and Mrs. M's threads, as I'm sure many regular posters on the "R" thread have. As you may know, Mrs M. occasionally posts on this thread, as well.

This is a place where BS's, WS's, those whom have chosen divorce and those who have remarried, etc., are all welcomed to share their own experiences, and their feelings about it, without fear of being verbally/textually assaulted. BS's who don't necessarily subscribe to the TAM doctrine can share without fear of being berated and WS's are "allowed" to offer explanations without being accused of trying to make justifications........ unless that's what they're trying to do. Then, they're called out for it. 

What we "Reconcilers" have found, is that an atmosphere of mutual respect allows us all an opportunity to learn from one another. Having been the WS in my own marriage, I know that I would have never understood the extent of the pain and devastation that my betrayal caused my husband, B1, had I not been on TAM reading story after story of other betrayed spouses and their own feelings of devastation. Sometimes, it's easier to see things from the outside looking in than it is to see things from within our own marriages. When I read about the pain that other betrayed spouses feel, I have a greater understanding for the pain of my own betrayed spouse. But, I also think that when BS's read the comments of the WS's on this thread they can see that WS's are thinking, feeling, caring and, often, hurting individuals, themselves. But, again, it's very difficult to see that within your own marriages when all you feel is hurt, anger and betrayal.

If you are seriously considering reconciliation with Mrs. M, then I encourage you to share with others who are working on their own reconciliations. We share the good, the bad, and the mundane on this thread. I have found it very comforting to be in the "virtual" company of other like minded individuals. It's a very supportive atmosphere, whether you ultimately decide to reconcile your marriage or not. Some don't, but they still have wisdom to offer here and we still have encouragement and support to give. 

One final note, if there was ever a marriage that I read about on TAM that I didn't think was reconcilable....... it was my own. A long term EA/PA and 2 D-Days later and B1 and I are going to renew our wedding vows next year on our 30th wedding anniversary. We couldn't save our old marriage, so we're creating a better one...... together. Why? Because at the end of the day there is no one that we would rather grow old with than one another!


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## CantSitStill

I like the way you put that EI..about how this is like a whole NEW marriage for you two. You both have had to make big changes for yourselves and eachother to get to this happiness you both have found in eachother. I am very very happy you two have gotten to where you both express your love to eachother as it should be 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Feeling better today
The sun is shining and my hormones are returning to an acceptable level! Lol!
Hubby's been a trooper, fair play!
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989

Our divorce will be final in 1 week. I found out yesterday that the POSOM smoked.

It shouldn't matter at all given everything my vstbxw did with and for him, but it really upset me. She and I are both vociferously anti smoking for various reasons. She "would never see a smoker" she used to say. Oh well, another way in which I just didn't know her.

Long story about how it came out, but it was because I thought I saw the posom in our village store (it wasn't him).

Such an apparently trivial thing but it's really knocked me sideways.

There was only a 5% chance of R anyway (if nothing else just because we are still living together) but that dropped it to 1%. 

Every time I find something it's always for the worse as I uncover lies every time. She still isn't really doing much of the basic things I asked 8 months ago so anyway just thought I'd mention it as it wasn't worth a fresh topic but I just hope a wayward spouse might read all this stuff and realise how much damage the lies do.


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## B1

Chris,
welcome, and sorry things didn't work out, and sorry about discovering more lies on top of that. Not sure what else to say Chris, but I hope you find peace and happiness in the near future.


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## MattMatt

Chris989 said:


> Our divorce will be final in 1 week. I found out yesterday that the POSOM smoked.
> 
> It shouldn't matter at all given everything my vstbxw did with and for him, but it really upset me. She and I are both vociferously anti smoking for various reasons. She "would never see a smoker" she used to say. Oh well, another way in which I just didn't know her.
> 
> Long story about how it came out, but it was because I thought I saw the posom in our village store (it wasn't him).
> 
> *Such an apparently trivial thing but it's really knocked me sideways.*
> 
> There was only a 5% chance of R anyway (if nothing else just because we are still living together) but that dropped it to 1%.
> 
> Every time I find something it's always for the worse as I uncover lies every time. She still isn't really doing much of the basic things I asked 8 months ago so anyway just thought I'd mention it as it wasn't worth a fresh topic but I just hope a wayward spouse might read all this stuff and realise how much damage the lies do.


Not trivial, really. My wife saw or thought she saw POSOM visiting a neighbour's house. And after 15/16 years down the line, it still triggered me.


----------



## EI

Chris989 said:


> Our divorce will be final in 1 week. I found out yesterday that the POSOM smoked.
> 
> It shouldn't matter at all given everything my vstbxw did with and for him, but it really upset me. She and I are both vociferously anti smoking for various reasons.
> 
> ....... I just hope a wayward spouse might read all this stuff and realise how much damage the lies do.


Chris,

I'm not sure if this will help you or further disgust you, but I thought I'd share it on the off chance that it might be of some comfort to you. The xOM in my EA/PA smoked like a chimney and drank like a fish..... two things that I absolutely loathe in real life. B1 and I, both, so detest smoking that we don't even allow it inside of our home..... not even on holidays when we host the big extended family dinners and it's 10 degrees outside. The 1 or 2 smokers left in our (extended) family have to go outside and do their nasty business because we aren't having any of that in our home.

As far as "drinking" goes, I have no issues with adults, over the age of 21, drinking in moderation, but I have zero tolerance for drunkenness, never have. Even as a young girl when I was dating,..... and I do mean young..... (B1 and I were 16 and 17 when we started dating) I wouldn't continue dating guys when I realized they drank. I hated it. I always figured that if they were drinking as teens, when they were underage and it was still illegal for them, that they certainly wouldn't be able to "control" themselves as adults.

Interestingly enough, my theory turned out to be, mostly, correct. I have lived in the same area my entire life and actually still have _vague _knowledge of many of the guys I dated before B1. Word of mouth and social media, like Facebook, give you 'windows' into the lives of people who are no longer present in your life but who are still 'around.' Those who were the heavy drinkers as teens, tended to become the "less thans" of society, now. I always felt that they wouldn't be good husband/father material. I wasn't proven to be incorrect. Please let me state, for the record, that I DO NOT have ANY of those former boyfriends/dates as "friends" on Facebook.

Another "fun fact," the xOM *was* one of those guys I dated as a teen who drank and smoked, who I _"knew"_ wouldn't be good husband/father material. I was right about him, too. Three divorces and a 10 year live-in relationship later (for him,) and THAT'S who I chose to nearly destroy my husband, my children, my extended family and myself over. Would you like to know why? Yeah, I would too..............  :scratchhead:

I guess my point is that if you're trying to make sense of something that makes no sense..... don't waste a lot of your time trying. Everything about infidelity is wrong. The infidelity, itself, was such a _character destroying act_ for me, that bending my values in other ways seemed like nothing more than "one more casualty" in the mix. There is no logic in infidelity..... so don't try to find it. 

I hope this helps.......... and, I'm truly sorry for you. I've read parts of your story and I know that you tried very hard to save your marriage and that your wife gave you absolutely no reason to do so. I believe that for you, the best is yet to come..... without her. I wish you the best of luck!


----------



## Chris989

I saw someone that looked like him get out of the same make of car that he has and walk past me into the village shop. I stared after him, but couldn't be sure.

I had 2 bags of shopping in my hands, having just come out of the store.

I didn't know what to do; I couldn't just ignore the fact that I might have just passed him by - especially if he had seen me.

I went and looked into the car. There were cigarettes on the passenger seat - I "knew" he didn't smoke so maybe it wasn't him.

It had a private reg that didn't tie in with his name.

Still, I wasn't sure so I waited for a minute by the car with no idea of what I would do if it was him.

I started to feel foolish, so took a picture of the car - no idea why - and started across the street.

As I got to the other side I saw him come out of the shop. 

Still unsure what to do I watched him get into the car and, as he did so, walked back over and looked into the driver's side window with my heart in my mouth.

It didn't look entirely like him, but still not sure I waited by his window as he wound it down.

"I'm sorry, do I know you" I said.

"I don't think so, I'm called Andy" he said.

This tied in with the private reg on the car.

"Oh, terribly sorry" I said "I thought I might have known you" and walked back off with my heart pounding and feeling a little embarrassed - a tired, stressed looking man with 2 shopping bags accosting a random bloke in the street.

What the Hell has this done to me ?


----------



## EI

Chris989 said:


> "Oh, terribly sorry" I said "I thought I might have known you" and walked back off with my heart pounding and feeling a little embarrassed - a tired, stressed looking man with 2 shopping bags accosting a random bloke in the street.
> 
> What the Hell has this done to me ?


_I'm so sorry..............._


----------



## bfree

Chris,

Infidelity changes you...a lot. In some cases the change although painful will eventually benefit you. That whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. In my case my ex wife's cheating sent me down a path that eventually had me picking up women in bars and other places for short term flings and ONS. Yeah, I became a PUA before I even knew what that was. I was just trying to get my manhood back but it went way too far. The good thing about that is that it made me supremely confident with women and that has benefited me in my current marriage. However, her cheating also instilled in me huge trust issues that I carried over into my marriage. Eventually I had to deal with those which is how I found my way to TAM in the first place. The good news for you is you have found TAM a lot earlier than I did so you have the opportunity to ask others for help and advice in handling not only your marriage but also the aftermath. It will help you to stay grounded.

EI, I just realized (sometimes it takes a while to penetrate my thick skull) but you and B1 have been together so long that this renewing of vows will truly be a second marriage for both of you. I don't know why I didn't realize it before but somehow that makes me feel really warm inside.


----------



## EI

MattMatt said:


> Not trivial, really. My wife saw or thought she saw POSOM visiting a neighbour's house. And after 15/16 years down the line, it still triggered me.


I'm sorry, MM...... it never goes away, does it? That's a fear that I live with daily. That "this" will never go away for B1..... or me. I _hate_ that the most horrible choice I ever made will cast a shadow on our marriage for the rest of our lives.

Though it is very difficult/odd to acknowledge, our marriage was in a terrible state, for many years, prior to my EA/PA, and it is in a far better state, now. How I wish that B1 and I had found a way to get to where we are now *before* I made that terrible choice. I would have liked to live the rest of my life oblivious, to the knowledge, that I was capable of such lies, deceit and betrayal. No such luck. Now, I know and.... for me.... there is no escape from that. As long as B1 chooses to stay with me.... there is no escape for him, either.

I want so much for he and I to live _'happily ever after,'_ but every single day I find myself questioning him every time he takes a deep breath, sighs or grimaces. Who knows, maybe he's just tired or he has a headache, but I think as long as I live, I will be sitting on the edge of my seat wondering if this will be the day that he decides that he cannot bear it any longer and he chooses to end our marriage. That's just a part of the price a former WS has to pay. I know that it doesn't begin to compare with the mind movies and thoughts that haunt a BS. Unfortunately, for them, that's the price they must pay (for a debt they do not owe) to stay with their former WS. 

Infidelity, boy oh boy, it didn't fix a damn thing.


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> I'm sorry, MM...... it never goes away, does it? That's a fear that I live with daily. That "this" will never go away for B1..... or me. I _hate_ that the most horrible choice I ever made will cast a shadow on our marriage for the rest of our lives.
> 
> Though it is very difficult/odd to acknowledge, our marriage was in a terrible state, for many years, prior to my EA/PA, and it is in a far better state, now. How I wish that B1 and I had found a way to get to where we are now *before* I made that terrible choice. I would have liked to live the rest of my life oblivious, to the knowledge, that I was capable of such lies, deceit and betrayal. No such luck. Now, I know and.... for me.... there is no escape from that. *As long as B1 chooses to stay with me.... there is no escape for him, either.*
> 
> I want so much for he and I to live _'happily ever after,'_ but every single day I find myself questioning him every time he takes a deep breath, sighs or grimaces. Who knows, maybe he's just tired or he has a headache, but I think as long as I live, I will be sitting on the edge of my seat wondering if this will be the day that he decides that he cannot bear it any longer and he chooses to end our marriage. That's just a part of the price a former WS has to pay. I know that it doesn't begin to compare with the mind movies and thoughts that haunt a BS. Unfortunately, for them, that's the price they must pay (for a debt they do not owe) to stay with their former WS.
> 
> Infidelity, boy oh boy, it didn't fix a damn thing.


I need to correct you on that. There is no escape for any of us for any of our experiences in life...good or bad. B1 will have that experience whether he stayed with you or not just like you both share the good and bad experiences in the rest of your marriage. The key is not to lament the experiences as being harmful but to take the energy from those experiences and channel it in a way that is beneficial. You both have done that and that is what you should both be focused on. Be mindful of the past but live in the present and look toward the future.


----------



## bfree

EI,

One other thing I want to add. Although my ex wife's betrayal hurt me in ways I still have a hard time describing it led to me becoming the man I am today. I really like who I am and I wouldn't want to change one thing about me. Oh sure I have things to work on and improvements to make but I wouldn't change any traits that I have now by removing any experiences I had in the past. I bet if you ask B1 if he likes who is now more than who he has pre-affair he will answer in the affirmative. I would bet that he feels so much better about himself now as a person and as a man. Would he have loved to get here in a less painful way? Sure. But we cannot alter the past without changing the future. And right now B1 is a really great man and he deserves a really great woman. The fact that he chose to stay with you should tell you all you need to know. He chose you and by doing so validated that you are that really great woman he knows he deserves.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> EI, I just realized (sometimes it takes a while to penetrate my thick skull) but you and B1 have been together so long that this renewing of vows will truly be a second marriage for both of you. I don't know why I didn't realize it before but somehow that makes me feel really warm inside.


Yes, it really will be a new (2nd) marriage for us! And, thank you, bfree! It makes me feel happy, too! I'm glad that he and I have chosen to wait until next year, on our 30th anniversary, though. Somehow, that makes it seem more meaningful and it will put even more time and distance between the worst choice I ever made and the best choice I've ever made..... marrying B1, twice! 

Now, I think I'd better log off for a bit. I have some damage control to do from last night. B1 and I had had a wonderful, busy and productive day, yesterday. We had even got to babysit our sweet little grandson while our daughter and s-i-l went out to dinner and a movie for a belated Valentine's Day celebration. Then, at the end of the night, just before bed, B1 was upset about something and in my fatigue and hunger (I had just been too dang busy to eat all day,) I didn't handle it well. I've got to fix that.... right now!

Have a beautiful Sunday, Reconcilers! 

Take Care,
~EI


----------



## Chris989

EI said:


> Yes, it really will be a new (2nd) marriage for us! And, thank you, bfree! It makes me feel happy, too! I'm glad that he and I have chosen to wait until next year, on our 30th anniversary, though. Somehow, that makes it seem more meaningful and it will put even more time and distance between the worst choice I ever made and the best choice I've ever made..... marrying B1, twice!
> 
> Now, I think I'd better log off for a bit. I have some damage control to do from last night. B1 and I had had a wonderful, busy and productive day, yesterday. We had even got to babysit our sweet little grandson while our daughter and s-i-l went out to dinner and a movie for a belated Valentine's Day celebration. Then, at the end of the night, just before bed, B1 was upset about something and in my fatigue and hunger (I had just been too dang busy to eat all day,) I didn't handle it well. I've got to fix that.... right now!
> 
> Have a beautiful Sunday, Reconcilers!
> 
> Take Care,
> ~EI


Good luck with your fixing!

Thanks for your replies too. They were helpful.


----------



## margrace

Chris989 said:


> I saw someone that looked like him get out of the same make of car that he has and walk past me into the village shop. I stared after him, but couldn't be sure.
> 
> ..."Oh, terribly sorry" I said "I thought I might have known you" and walked back off with my heart pounding and feeling a little embarrassed - a tired, stressed looking man with 2 shopping bags accosting a random bloke in the street.
> 
> What the Hell has this done to me ?


chris, this snapshot from your day really touched me. there are many days when i'm a tired, stressed-looking woman chasing the very same ghosts that you are. or sometimes it feels like they are chasing me 

the comments that bfree and others have made are also true for me: i think i'm on my way now to being a better person and better partner than i was during my pre-A marriage. 

just like EI said, i very much wish that fWH and i could have followed a different path to this place (!!!) but i don't wish for that pre-A life. and i believe that the ghosts will lose their hold on me and on all of us BSs and WSs who are working so hard in our own ways.

in the meantime, my heart really went out to you today.


----------



## Decorum

EI 
Thanks for sharing about how you "bent" your own values.
I found it helpful. A failure is a failure, and it shows you what you are capable of under those circumstances, but thank God it is a failure and not the norm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Chris989
> I saw someone that looked like him get out of the same make of car that he has and walk past me into the village shop. I stared after him, but couldn't be sure.
> 
> ..."Oh, terribly sorry" I said "I thought I might have known you" and walked back off with my heart pounding and feeling a little embarrassed - a tired, stressed looking man with 2 shopping bags accosting a random bloke in the street.
> 
> *What the Hell has this done to me ?*


*It has knocked you on your AZZ!!!*

Like the rest of us the betrayal has messed up your life and emotions big time.

*Chris, if it is any comfort, there ican be a lot of good left in life after betrayal.* I am not saying that because of something I read in a book, I have experienced it for many years and so has my sister.

Hold on Chris and get as much help as you can; you can get a LOT better. Millions have and so can you


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## CantSitStill

Calvin actually went running tword and yelling at a dude that he thought was the OM because he had the same work truck and a cap on his head..this poor guy ran back in his truck and took off fast...found out later that it wasn't him because the truck was a bit different. Kinda funny but then again not funny at all. This crap really really gets to the BS and it's so hard to control the emotion they go thru.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Here's a random question for WSs: any of you consider or try suicide or consider it? I'm fine, this is not about me wanting to kill myself. It's actually something that came up in a thread I've been reading. I'm curious, be honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Here's a random question for WSs: any of you consider or try suicide or consider it? I'm fine, this is not about me wanting to kill myself. It's actually something that came up in a thread I've been reading. I'm curious, be honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


God no,no...no.
Me? nevermind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

CantSitStill said:


> Here's a random question for WSs: any of you consider or try suicide or consider it? I'm fine, this is not about me wanting to kill myself. It's actually something that came up in a thread I've been reading. I'm curious, be honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not just no, but he!! no. 

If it looks like I committed suicide - start looking for a jealous boyfriend, lol. 

Seriously - I'm just too nosy...I want to see what my kids and grand kids live to accomplish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Here's a random question for WSs: any of you consider or try suicide or consider it? I'm fine, this is not about me wanting to kill myself. It's actually something that came up in a thread I've been reading. I'm curious, be honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*YES,* before, during and after my EA/PA, I endured bouts of suicidal ideation. Although, it never went beyond fleeting thoughts and/or ideas about how I might carry it out. But, in the end, it always came back to the realization that however unhappy I was, at the time, I loved my family more than anything else..... even during the time that I was betraying them. There were so many times that I simply could not envision a scenario in which I would ever be happy again. I know that there was a long period of time, pre-A, in which I prayed that I would simply go to sleep and not wake up so that my children would not have to bear the knowledge that their mother had _willingly _"left them." I thought it would be easier on them that way. But, I could not get past the fact that, no matter how unhappy I was, it would be much more difficult for them to navigate through their lives without me in it. I realized that I had to conquer the beast of "depression and oppression" that had consumed my/our life for so many years. I knew that my children not only needed a mother, but a physically and psychologically fit mother, as well. 

This leads into the story that I have told, repeatedly, on TAM starting with my original thread. I went to therapy, which I had already been doing on and off for many years. Caregiving for two ill and aging parents, who both live with you, at the same time you are raising 5 children, including a special needs child, with a husband who travels on the job, a large percentage of the time, can land even one of the most determined, driven and energetic &!+(#3$ on the planet in therapy. I started working on "me," inside and out, and I hoped that B1 would follow suit. But, he didn't and he seemed resentful and, somewhat, hostile at any attempts on my part to encourage him to make some changes of his own. 

Soooooo, we know what happened next...... I threw out all of my values, morals and convictions and decided to be selfish. I decided that if no one else was going to take care of me...... then, I would take care of me. Yep........ that didn't help, either. :scratchhead: Interestingly enough, I continued to have those suicidal thoughts all throughout that time. Again, always knowing that I would never carry it out, just wishing that I weren't alive. I'm so ashamed to say that I continued to have those thoughts after D-Day, as well. Although I never had any intentions of following through with those thoughts, I have come to realize that I need to be more than just "present" in the lives of my husband and my children.

Life is still challenging. I think it always will be. But, I no longer flirt with or dwell on suicidal thoughts. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life. I've made a lot of poor choices. I've hurt people that I love dearly and I've hurt myself, too. But, I'd be being dishonest if I didn't say that I know that I/we have accomplished a lot of good things, as well. I did take care of my mom and dad, to the very best of my ability, until the day they died. I held each of their hands as they took their last breath. I did see to it that my oldest brother's final arrangements were done with dignity when he died, suddenly and unexpectedly, at the age of 49, leaving absolutely NO provisions, no assets and no instructions. B1 and I did not turn our backs on two precious children who needed a place to call "home" and someone to call "Mom" and "Dad," even as I was _encouraged_ to make this commitment while I was pregnant and had not yet given birth to our first child. None of this could have been accomplished without B1, by my side, supporting me and our family through it all. B1 has worked hard all of these years so that we could realize our dream of me staying home and raising all 5 of our children. 

It's been quite a ride, filled with lots of ups and downs. Right now..... I'm happy. I still struggle with guilt and shame over betraying my family. I believe that I always will. But, I love what *bfree *wrote earlier today, "we cannot alter the past without changing the future." I think I like what our future is beginning to look like.....................

......to be continued..... always to be continued........... 

Take care,
EI


----------



## CantSitStill

I like all that you said, it's true that doing something like that would affect others. There have been times I've sorta wished God would just take me. Maybe everyone has felt that one time or another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I just wrote a play by play of what happend to me thin night before my Moms B day party.
It involved a bridg over the expressway and an old man who talked me down.
Everything Io trie to post just vanished,maybee thats for the better.
CSS Didnt care.
A stranger did thought,God I was so close,my life was over anyway.
Now,CSS would push me out of the way of a Mack truck.
I'm glad things are going much better.
God it came close,if that old man hadnt shown up then who knows.
Guarding Angel?....I never thought about that.
Bible does say we have two of them assigned to us.
I'm just happy things didnt go South,oh God what a cluster fvck it would have been.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Calvin never told me this story and it's a bit hard for him to talk about right now. Struck a nerve here but it's ok. He can tell me when he's ready. It's too hard right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

EI
I am very impressed as to how you are so truthful and put into words about such devastating realities of your actions.

What is very encouraging is that you are strong enough to put into words the honest truth about the reality that “…I/we have accomplished a lot of good things as well”

That fact that you face your good, bad, and ugly actions tells me that you are healing very nicely. It is so refreshing to see someone arise out of the ashes and let everyone see that the Goliath marriage killer of infidelity can be slain.

The “good works” that you and B1 did is sacrificing and love for others. Seems like someone 2000 years ago said that is part of God’s calling for us humans.
Luke 7:36-50


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## CantSitStill

I love the way EI shares all of this so honestly. It's hearbreaking but it helps me and I'm sure others here to stay strong. Thank you EI 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

I love how this thread is 322 pages, 4,817 posts, 5,387 likes and it is still the thread I look forward to catching up on every day.


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## EI

I am so blessed and grateful to have found a place where I can bear my heart and soul, my biggest regrets, my greatest fears, my past hurts and disappointments, and the things in my life that I am most deeply ashamed of, yet still receive such encouragement, compassion and inspiration from all of you. You all are the most kind, supportive and inspiring group of people I've "never" met in my life.  

Any contribution that I may have made to this thread has been returned to me a thousand fold. I truly mean that. I don't believe that B1 and I could have saved our marriage without you.

I would so love the opportunity for B1 and I to meet you all someday.

One final note for the evening. As this thread inches closer to the 5,000th post..... NO ONE better get any big ideas about putting their name on it. 'Cuz you all know..... IT'S MINE!!!


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## Rookie4

And now for something completely different................a man with a propeller on his head. GEEZooBecky, I come back from a very nice , romantic, Valentine's weekend and what do I find? Suicide and downers by the post full. WTF has been going on here, since I left? Except for EI and B1, everybody seems to be having serious heartburn attacks. Dayum.
Sweetie and I went to a secret location, and did some really kinky stuff, a LOT of romantic stuff, and had a fu*king ball. We haven't had this much fun since forever. I am the proud owner of a 1960 Chevy Impala convertable that my sweetie bought me for V-day. I was so surprised that I nearly fell flat on my a**. I bought Sweetie a diamond, so even if we don't remarry she will have a ring on her finger. We had a Real adventure!! We went to see a floor show and while we were there some 30-something guys came and sat down at the next table. We watched a couple of dances and one of the the boys said it was time to go, and one of the other ones said he wasn't leaving until that hot woman at the next table stripped. Meaning Sweetie!! So she stood up and belittled the little hosers. Now I admit she really looked fine, but I wasn't having that so I got up and told him off, and the little pr*ck swung at me! I got him right on the button, and it caused a hell of a commotion. WE didn't get into trouble, and actually got some free credit for the blackjack table where I won about $785.00. So....I had a GREAT Valentines Day and I hope all of you guys did too.


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## Rookie4

Kind of silly , insn't it when 40+ people act like teenagers


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## bfree

See what I mean about looking forward to reading this thread?


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## B1

bfree said:


> *I bet if you ask B1 if he likes who is now more than who he has pre-affair he will answer in the affirmative. I would bet that he feels so much better about himself now as a person and as a man.*


I have answered this twice now and deleted the post. It's tough to answer. Why, because it's so true. I do feel better about myself, I like who am I and I am in a better place now. I am an emotional creature now, I want sex now, I want EI to touch me, to put her hand on my face, I want to hold her hand and see her smile, I love holding her, making her happy and seeing her happy. The cute little thing is on her new Ipad now loving it and I love that. 

ALL this and we all know why I am where I am. I don't like the path that got me here, it hurts, but here is where I am and I do like that, NO, I love this. I love feeling, loving and being loved.

It's taken a while but I am feeling more confident, more like a man, the man  then ever before. I still have bouts of sadness, thoughts still hit me from time to time and images, not as much, but they do get me occasionally. I still can't handle t.v. when it gets into infidelity. I still even have a question or two every now and then for EI. But overall, and with all this being said, I absolutely without a doubt like who I am now and where I am.

Again, I will say, it's tough to admit and even say when we all know how I got to this place. For me, it was a huge awakening, a life changing event. And for EI and me, we are different as usual, I, the BS, changed, this tiger changed his stripes. It's not supposed to happen especially to a 48 year old man, but it happened. And it's all for the better. Yes, even with the hurt, it's still for the better.

EI still looks at me sometimes like she's never seen me before. I make an expression, say something, and she just looks at me like who the heck are you. To me, it feels normal, to her, well, she's still getting used to it. 

Going back to changing. I am the one who changed. EI is still EI, during the A, she was a broken EI, a woman pushed over the edge, but she was still EI. The only real change in her then was being selfish, which is a complete 180 from who she normally is. EI, is the farthest thing from selfish, but then, during her A, she was. Now, she is still pretty much the same woman as before, just not broken, not pushed over the edge.

She has what she always wanted, ME along with my love. EI simply wanted to be loved, cherished, liked, and to have a companion in life. Preferably one that loved her. During her A, she was still having suicidal thoughts, this even came out in our counseling. The counselor confirmed to me, that she was miserable during the A too. She couldn't have me, so she grabbed anything, anyone that would give her some attention, because I sure wouldn't. The xOM gave her attention and that's what she fell for.

So, in order for us to get where we are today, it took change, a change in me. And that happened, it was a massive kick in the gonads and it hurt but I changed. EI, well, she simply fell back in love with this new me. She turned her attention back to me, she gave me another chance, again, this is different than the norm her on TAM, Yes, I gave her another chance, but, she gave me one too.

Wow, I didn't plan on this going on like it has, it's almost approaching an EI post


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

CantSitStill said:


> Here's a random question for WSs: any of you consider or try suicide or consider it? I'm fine, this is not about me wanting to kill myself. It's actually something that came up in a thread I've been reading. I'm curious, be honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Add this to the list of things that I am incredibly ashamed about. Yes, I did consider it after D-Day #2, and still have thoughts of it off and on. I don't know that I ever would have actually done it, but I spent some time on a suicide blog site, researching methods that would be undetectable so that Matt and our son would get my insurance money. The problem is, most of those methods require an assistant, someone to get rid of the evidence and I couldn't think of a single person that I could/would ask to help me with that.

I spent every car trip to and from work for over a month wondering if I had the mental willpower to crash my vehicle into an overpass at 70 mph and if that would be enough to kill me instantly if I wasn't wearing my seatbelt.

I looked for statistics on children of divorce vs. those with a deceased parent. I considered taking every ambien/xanax/anti-depressant I'd been prescribed at once and hoping that was enough to do me in. I thought about just running away, leaving Matt a note and asking him to just tell my son that I was dead, hitchhike or whatever to someplace semi-warm and attempt to survive. I wished for many days to just not wake up, like EI said.

Ultimately those choices felt like a continuation of my selfishness. I would love for this pain to go away, to not have to constantly deal with the absolute carnage I have created in every aspect of my life. But I owe it to my son to see if I can get better, to at least try. And while there are many days when I feel that Matt's life would be better if I didn't exist, I know he does want me as a co-parent and support for our son.

I'm so tired of being a hypocrite and not living up to who I thought I was, and what I thought I believed in. For the people in my life that do care about me (and I'm incredibly blessed to have any after what I've done), I don't want to disappoint them yet again.

Matt asked me this weekend when I was at my "best". What was that? And as I look at the people around me, I think they would say it is when I am just being me, and encouraging them to try something they didn't know they were capable of. To step outside of their own perceptions of themselves and their abilities and go for something, without worrying about failure. I need to be better about practicing what I preach. So even when it feels like I am nothing more than a lying cheating wh0re, I need to decide that I am and behave in a way that is consistent with that decision every single day. There's no way out of this, but I can move through it.


----------



## EI

Dang it, B1, you buy me a mini iPad and then you get me addicted to the game Ruzzle. How do expect me to get anything done around here, today? You know that Monday is my busiest day of the week and today is even busier than usual. 

You know I'm competitive with these games and that I will HAVE to annihilate the competition (you) before I can get anything else done!!!! :scratchhead:

Grrrrr..........


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> So even when it feels like I am nothing more than a lying cheating wh0re, I need to decide who I am and behave in a way that is consistent with that decision every single day. There's no way out of this, but I can move through it.


Mrs. M.,

I already know that you are so much more than how you described yourself as feeling, at times. You are, also, a daughter, a wife, a mother, a teacher and a friend. Flawed, perhaps??? Okay, me too.... But, you are still those things. So, like you said, you get to wake up everyday and make a decision. Decide from this day forward to be the best daughter, wife, mother, teacher and friend that you can be. You have already been a friend to me, in recent weeks, and for that I am grateful.

Please start acknowledging the things about yourself that you KNOW are positive and start rebuilding yourself and your self-esteem from there.

Take care,
EI


----------



## Rookie4

This is probably going to be considered in -appropriate by some posters, but I'm going to tell it anyway (because I've NEVER been appropriate). Sweetie and I were fu*king in the back seat of my 1960 Chevy Impala. Did I mention that Sweetie bought me a 1960 Chevy Impala? Yes... my Sweetie bought me a 1960 Chevy Impala. I'm so excited that every time I go out to the garage to do something, 
I look at it and giggle like a 13 yo. girl.
Anyhoo, it's 20 degrees and we are screwing in the back seat, in the parking lot of the Casino, where I've just punched some kid, 10 years younger than me , in the nose.
Now my Sweetie has always had a weird sense of humor. So she begins to scream out things like"ride'm cowboy", "right there, do that again , only HARDER", or "squeeze my.... " you get the idea. Now people in evening clothes are walking by this old car and it's rocking like a lowrider, so 2 Casino security guards come out and ask if we are OK. One of them is the guy who separated me from the bratpack inside. He asks if I plan to ever come back to his Casino and hopes it's on a night that he isn't working.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> This is probably going to be considered in -appropriate by some posters, but I'm going to tell it anyway (because I've NEVER been appropriate). Sweetie and I were fu*king in the back seat of my 1960 Chevy Impala. Did I mention that Sweetie bought me a 1960 Chevy Impala? Yes... my Sweetie bought me a 1960 Chevy Impala. I'm so excited that every time I go out to the garage to do something,
> I look at it and giggle like a 13 yo. girl.
> Anyhoo, it's 20 degrees and we are screwing in the back seat, in the parking lot of the Casino, where I've just punched some kid, 10 years younger than me , in the nose.
> Now my Sweetie has always had a weird sense of humor. So she begins to scream out things like"ride'm cowboy", "right there, do that again , only HARDER", or "squeeze my.... " you get the idea. Now people in evening clothes are walking by this old car and it's rocking like a lowrider, so 2 Casino security guards come out and ask if we are OK. One of them is the guy who separated me from the bratpack inside. He asks if I plan to ever come back to his Casino and hopes it's on a night that he isn't working.


Oh my Hell, Rookie is strutting around like a pea**** actin' like he's 21!!! You're bouncin' around so high, B1 and I can feel the vibrations all the way from Kentucky!!! 

I thought we'd had an earthquake the other night. Come to find out, it was just you and Sweetie gettin' your freak on in your "new" and "newly christened" Chevy Impala!  


Geeeeeez............. Act your age....... Ya got grown kids! And, ya can't afford to be getting' into too many scraps. Ya already lost half your toes! :scratchhead:


----------



## Rags

If you can't be young, you can at least be immature


----------



## ChangingMe

Rookie4 said:


> This is probably going to be considered in -appropriate by some posters, but I'm going to tell it anyway (because I've NEVER been appropriate). Sweetie and I were fu*king in the back seat of my 1960 Chevy Impala. Did I mention that Sweetie bought me a 1960 Chevy Impala? Yes... my Sweetie bought me a 1960 Chevy Impala. I'm so excited that every time I go out to the garage to do something,
> I look at it and giggle like a 13 yo. girl.
> Anyhoo, it's 20 degrees and we are screwing in the back seat, in the parking lot of the Casino, where I've just punched some kid, 10 years younger than me , in the nose.
> Now my Sweetie has always had a weird sense of humor. So she begins to scream out things like"ride'm cowboy", "right there, do that again , only HARDER", or "squeeze my.... " you get the idea. Now people in evening clothes are walking by this old car and it's rocking like a lowrider, so 2 Casino security guards come out and ask if we are OK. One of them is the guy who separated me from the bratpack inside. He asks if I plan to ever come back to his Casino and hopes it's on a night that he isn't working.


Rookie, I gotta say, I think that's an awesome story! :smthumbup: Definitely sounds like a night to remember. Though I think you and Sweetie might not be the only ones that will remember it. :rofl:


----------



## StarGazer101

B1 said:


> I have answered this twice now and deleted the post. It's tough to answer. Why, because it's so true. I do feel better about myself, I like who am I and I am in a better place now. I am an emotional creature now, I want sex now, I want EI to touch me, to put her hand on my face, I want to hold her hand and see her smile, I love holding her, making her happy and seeing her happy. The cute little thing is on her new Ipad now loving it and I love that.
> 
> ALL this and we all know why I am where I am. I don't like the path that got me here, it hurts, but here is where I am and I do like that, NO, I love this. I love feeling, loving and being loved.
> 
> It's taken a while but I am feeling more confident, more like a man, the man  then ever before. I still have bouts of sadness, thoughts still hit me from time to time and images, not as much, but they do get me occasionally. I still can't handle t.v. when it gets into infidelity. I still even have a question or two every now and then for EI. But overall, and with all this being said,* I absolutely without a doubt like who I am now and where I am.*
> 
> Again, I will say, it's tough to admit and even say when we all know how I got to this place. For me, it was a huge awakening, a life changing event. And for EI and me, we are different as usual, I, the BS, changed, this tiger changed his stripes. It's not supposed to happen especially to a 48 year old man, but it happened. And it's all for the better. Yes, even with the hurt, it's still for the better.
> 
> EI still looks at me sometimes like she's never seen me before. I make an expression, say something, and she just looks at me like who the heck are you. To me, it feels normal, to her, well, she's still getting used to it.
> 
> Going back to changing. I am the one who changed. EI is still EI, during the A, she was a broken EI, a woman pushed over the edge, but she was still EI. The only real change in her then was being selfish, which is a complete 180 from who she normally is. EI, is the farthest thing from selfish, but then, during her A, she was. Now, she is still pretty much the same woman as before, just not broken, not pushed over the edge.
> 
> *She has what she always wanted, ME along with my love. EI simply wanted to be loved, cherished, liked, and to have a companion in life. Preferably one that loved her*. During her A, she was still having suicidal thoughts, this even came out in our counseling. The counselor confirmed to me, that she was miserable during the A too. She couldn't have me, so she grabbed anything, anyone that would give her some attention, because I sure wouldn't. The xOM gave her attention and that's what she fell for.
> 
> So, in order for us to get where we are today, it took change, a change in me. And that happened, it was a massive kick in the gonads and it hurt but I changed. EI, well, she simply fell back in love with this new me. She turned her attention back to me, she gave me another chance, again, this is different than the norm her on TAM, *Yes, I gave her another chance, but, she gave me one too.*
> 
> Wow, I didn't plan on this going on like it has, it's almost approaching an EI post


B1 I cannot tell you how much your post touched me. You have both come so far to come together. I hope we can do half as well at refinding our love for each other and develop such empathy, compassion and courage within our marriage.

Your story should really be a film - I'm sure Kleenex would sponsor it! I seem to always need a tissue when I read both of your posts :smthumbup:


----------



## StarGazer101

EI said:


> Mrs. M.,
> 
> I already know that you are so much more than how you described yourself as feeling, at times. You are, also, a daughter, a wife, a mother, a teacher and a friend. Flawed, perhaps??? Okay, me too.... But, you are still those things. So, like you said, you get to wake up everyday and make a decision. *Decide from this day forward to be the best daughter, wife, mother, teacher and friend that you can be.* You have already been a friend to me, in recent weeks, and for that I am grateful.
> 
> *Please start acknowledging the things about yourself that you KNOW are positive and start rebuilding yourself and your self-esteem from there*.
> 
> Take care,
> EI


Wise, wise words EI, 

 MrsM I think if you decide to follow this advice that you'll never regret it.


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> This is probably going to be considered in -appropriate by some posters, but I'm going to tell it anyway (because I've NEVER been appropriate).  Sweetie and I were fu*king in the back seat of my 1960 Chevy Impala. Did I mention that Sweetie bought me a 1960 Chevy Impala? Yes... my Sweetie bought me a 1960 Chevy Impala. I'm so excited that every time I go out to the garage to do something,
> I look at it and giggle like a 13 yo. girl.
> Anyhoo, it's 20 degrees and we are screwing in the back seat, in the parking lot of the Casino, where I've just punched some kid, 10 years younger than me , in the nose.
> Now my Sweetie has always had a weird sense of humor. So she begins to scream out things like"ride'm cowboy", "right there, do that again , only HARDER", or "squeeze my.... " you get the idea. Now people in evening clothes are walking by this old car and it's rocking like a lowrider, so 2 Casino security guards come out and ask if we are OK. One of them is the guy who separated me from the bratpack inside. He asks if I plan to ever come back to his Casino and hopes it's on a night that he isn't working.


Well it's nice to know some people get lucky inside as well as outside a casino.

The odds were certainly in your favor. 

Keep healing....


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Oh my Hell, Rookie is strutting around like a pea**** actin' like he's 21!!! You're bouncin' around so high, B1 and I can feel the vibrations all the way from Kentucky!!!
> 
> I thought we'd had an earthquake the other night. Come to find out, it was just you and Sweetie gettin' your freak on in your "new" and "newly christened" Chevy Impala!
> 
> 
> Geeeeeez............. Act your age....... Ya got grown kids! And, ya can't afford to be getting' into too many scraps. Ya already lost half your toes! :scratchhead:


EI, it was the sheer ridiculousness of the situation that was so funny. 
There I was schtupping my GF and these guards shine their flashlights into the car. I reacted just like in High School. I didn't want them to see Sweetie's face so I covered it with a Native American brochure that had an Indian head on it. Basically it looked like I was having sex with Pocahontas. Sweetie is laughing her fool head off, which is causing her to "contract", which is having a major effect on me, and I'm trying to have a conversation with a guy who already thinks I'm a trouble maker, and is shining his light on my hairy behind.
BTW I did mention my toes to the guy I decked. I asked him how it felt to be whupped by a man ten years older with half a foot.


----------



## Rookie4

Sorry , Stargazer, for being such a goof. But we've been laughing about this all weekend. Except , of course for my youngest kid , who thinks we are acting horribly


----------



## happyman64

Who needs half a foot when you have balls the size of a Clydesdales!
:lol:


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie, that's the best smile I've had all day reading your posts! So glad the weekend was.... memorable... to say the least. 

I don't mean to sound like a downer in my previous post. I know there are a lot of positive things in my life and I make positive choices for the person I want to be every day. I think I'm getting better at maintaining those attitudes, but as with everything else, some days/moments are harder than others.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry , Stargazer, for being such a goof. But we've been laughing about this all weekend. Except , of course for my youngest kid , who thinks we are acting horribly


Please elaborate. My oldest - she's a teen - is such a drama queen when she's ashamed due our childish shows. We love to tease her.


----------



## ChangingMe

Ok, I'd like to see both an EI/B1 movie AND a Rookie/Sweetie movie! EI and B1 could be a Nicholas Sparks-type one, but I think Rookie & Sweetie's would be more like The Hangover or something else hilarious but a little raunchy. I think I would really enjoy them both. 

(Just please keep that hairy butt covered please, Rookie! :rofl


----------



## bfree

happyman64 said:


> Well it's nice to know some people get lucky inside as well as outside a casino.
> 
> The odds were certainly in your favor.
> 
> Keep healing....


Some healing methods!


----------



## ChangingMe

Damn, I'm exhausted! This coming Saturday is moving day. :smthumbup: After 8 months past DDay, I will finally be moving out of my office and into a new building. For those that don't know, my office is where xOM would come, so each work day I have had to come here and have reminders, and DD has had to know that I'm in the place where the most horrible things I've done in my marriage took place. I hate that it has taken me this long to get us moved, but nothing seems to move quickly in the business world, and our new building -which was supposed to be completed by December 31 -will not be complete till later this week. 

I am so, so excited to be out of here, to have this ugly reminder of my selfishness and stupidity gone from my day-to-day life. 

But to get there requires packing a 2000+ sq foot office space filled with nearly 20 years of client files, financials, and junk. The president of our board came this morning to help me, as did her step-son who needs community service hours, and we have been working non-stop. We've gotten a lot done, but I am BEAT. It feels so good though to know that I'm on the home stretch and nearly out of here.

I probably won't be around much this week, since there is a lot to get done. Hope everyone has a good one. Now, back to work . . .


----------



## CantSitStill

wow that sounds like alot of work..but you know it's worth it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CM, look at it like a huge step forward in your marriage. Keep thinking of the relief you and DD will have when you are in a new place. I see both of you having a collective sigh. One huge trigger removed. From the shadows into the light.


----------



## CantSitStill

bfree said:


> CM, look at it like a huge step forward in your marriage. Keep thinking of the relief you and DD will have when you are in a new place. I see both of you having a collective sigh. One huge trigger removed. From the shadows into the light.


 CM wish I lived by you so you can hire me as your secretary or receptionist and help with all the moving and re arranging
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> CM, look at it like a huge step forward in your marriage. Keep thinking of the relief you and DD will have when you are in a new place. I see both of you having a collective sigh. One huge trigger removed. From the shadows into the light.


Oh, it is SO worth it! I am hoping it helps DD. Not all that sure it will, since it didn't help him when xOM moved liked he thought it would. I know I will feel better though. Too many bad memories in the old place -not only was xOM there, but it is also where DD confronted me, so there are bad memories of that event as well. It will be a huge trigger removed for both of us. The packing is a beating, but I know where it's getting me, and that has me so excited. 



CantSitStill said:


> CM wish I lived by you so you can hire me as your secretary or receptionist and help with all the moving and re arranging
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would be cool! I'd need you to speak Spanish though -it's a requirement that our receptionists be bilingual. I am in Texas after all!


----------



## ChangingMe

CantSitStill said:


> Here's a random question for WSs: any of you consider or try suicide or consider it? I'm fine, this is not about me wanting to kill myself. It's actually something that came up in a thread I've been reading. I'm curious, be honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had very fleeting moments when it crossed my mind, when things got so overwhelming and I didn't want to have to deal with my pain or DD's or deal with the mess I had created. It never lasted long, because there is no way I could do that to my babies. I hurt them enough already; I couldn't be even more selfish and give up like that. 

Now, I have had daydreams of falling asleep and waking up in the "2-5 years" that people say it takes to get over an affair. Sometimes that sounds very, very nice . . .


----------



## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> I had very fleeting moments when it crossed my mind, when things got so overwhelming and I didn't want to have to deal with my pain or DD's or deal with the mess I had created. It never lasted long, because there is no way I could do that to my babies. I hurt them enough already; I couldn't be even more selfish and give up like that.
> 
> Now, I have had daydreams of falling asleep and waking up in the "2-5 years" that people say it takes to get over an affair. Sometimes that sounds very, very nice . . .


Yeah Calvin has seen people say that and always says "ok where's the fast forward button!" yes it would be nice..sometimes I don't wanna get outa bed because I get all nervous wondering whether that morning text from him will be good or major triggering. Gotta keep on keepin on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

spanish ugg nope I'm out can't speak much spanish
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> Ok, I'd like to see both an EI/B1 movie AND a Rookie/Sweetie movie! EI and B1 could be a Nicholas Sparks-type one, but I think Rookie & Sweetie's would be more like The Hangover or something else hilarious but a little raunchy. I think I would really enjoy them both.
> 
> (Just please keep that hairy butt covered please, Rookie! :rofl


CM, I'll have you know that Sweetie thinks my heinie is really cute, she says it's like a fuzzy pillow.


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Rookie, that's the best smile I've had all day reading your posts! So glad the weekend was.... memorable... to say the least.
> 
> I don't mean to sound like a downer in my previous post. I know there are a lot of positive things in my life and I make positive choices for the person I want to be every day. I think I'm getting better at maintaining those attitudes, but as with everything else, some days/moments are harder than others.


Mrs. Mathias, before I ever posted on TAM, I was a lurker here for a while. I remember an older poster called Beowulf, who had reconciled from his wife's affair. He talked about making new memories. Well, I gave it a lot of thought and I realized that for the last 6 or 7 years, Sweetie and I had very few memories, outside of our kids accomplishments, that were just the two of us. When I was burning our pictures , pre divorce, there were very few of just Sweetie and me, most were family pictures that I saved. Almost none were of Sweetie and I doing the things we like to do. I don't know which is sadder, burning photos, or having few photos to burn.
What we are doing now, is making new memories for our new love affair. Taking the time, making the effort, being excited about every day we are together. The bottom line is that both you and Dr. M need to find out if you both possess the deep, true, love, that can make this happen, then go out and make your own NEW memories and I think you will find that , like me, it will push the old bad memories out of your thoughts.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, Sweetie says thanks to all of you who have helped me and her. She says to both BS's and WS's to never give up hope. It's better to have hope and fail , than to have no hope at all. She also said a lot of mushy sh*t about me, but I don't brag, so I'll leave it alone.


----------



## Rags

Rookie4 said:


> ...., but I don't brag, so I'll leave it alone.



:rofl:


----------



## pidge70

CantSitStill said:


> Here's a random question for WSs: any of you consider or try suicide or consider it? I'm fine, this is not about me wanting to kill myself. It's actually something that came up in a thread I've been reading. I'm curious, be honest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, yes I did.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Yes, yes I did.


Sorry to hear that pidge,I've been there.
Its a selfish thing to do,it hurts so many others also.
Goes to show you just how destructive infidelity can be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

I have a quick comment to make , then I've got work to do.
The idea that because Sweetie and I divorced, that our reconciliation is somehow EASIER than those who chose to remain married, is preposterous and really offensive.
I've gotten a couple of PM's saying how "lucky", I was, to be able to see other women, and not have the same worries that BS's who stayed married have to face. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> I have a quick comment to make , then I've got work to do.
> The idea that because Sweetie and I divorced, that our reconciliation is somehow EASIER than those who chose to remain married, is preposterous and really offensive.
> I've gotten a couple of PM's saying how "lucky", I was, to be able to see other women, and not have the same worries that BS's who stayed married have to face. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?


Rookie,

You don't have to be on TAM very long before you figure out that a lot of people project their own feelings onto the relationships of others. Obviously, infidelity is a highly charged emotional subject. You simply have to learn to weed out what you find to be helpful from what you find to be distracting.

When I first posted on TAM, I was on the receiving end of a lot harsh criticism and accusations. As a WS, that is certainly to be expected. Much of what was said was spot on, even if I didn't completely agree with it or understand it, at the time. Most people, whether BS's or WS's, don't arrive on TAM with all of the answers. If they had all of the answers they probably wouldn't be here, anyway. But, the truth is, not ALL of what was said to me and about me was true at all. Some of it wasn't even close..... even if it did come _"straight from the gospel of the cheater's script."_

Most people here are not professional relationship experts (well, CM is.  ) We have all gained our understanding of infidelity in the school of hard knocks. Some, will come away from their experience having become stronger, healthier and happier individuals, like "bfree," for example. He is an example of someone whose marriage ended as a result of his wife's infidelity, but he grew as an individual. Acabado and his wife reconciled after her infidelity, and they are now 3 years into a happy and healthy reconciliation. But, none of that happened overnight. It took a long time. There are others, on TAM, who have remained psychologically paralyzed, becoming more bitter, cynical and angry as time goes on. I'll refrain from giving examples..... they speak quite well for themselves and, fortunately for us, do not waste their time posting on _this_ thread. You have to take everything that is said, here, _with a grain of salt._ I am not condemning anyone who is hurting and angry. Infidelity does hurt people and make them angry and rightfully so. I'm just saying that their "advice" may not be best for those in reconciliation. 

If you had asked me within the first two months of posting here how I felt about TAM, I would have said that coming here was the "2nd" biggest mistake of my life. But, like staring at a train wreck, I just couldn't stop myself from coming back. Now, if you ask me about TAM, I would say that I think it has been our greatest resource in our reconciliation..... even more so than our marriage counselor.

So, anyway, that's my 2 cents worth for today.

Take care,
EI


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> Yes, yes I did.


I hope that you are in a much better place, now, Pidge.


----------



## CantSitStill

Rookie? I am really confused how you are lucky..you went thru infidelity and a divorce and it took 2 yrs to begin your reconcilliation..that sounds like alot of hell before getting to where you are now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

CantSitStill said:


> Rookie? I am really confused how you are lucky..you went thru infidelity and a divorce and it took 2 yrs to begin your reconcilliation..that sounds like alot of hell before getting to where you are now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My thoughts exactly. 

I don't see how the term lucky can be applied to anyone affected by infidelity.


----------



## pidge70

EI said:


> I hope that you are in a much better place, now, Pidge.


No worries.


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> Sorry to hear that pidge,I've been there.
> Its a selfish thing to do,it hurts so many others also.
> Goes to show you just how destructive infidelity can be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It wasn't my first attempt but, it was definitely my last.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I have a quick comment to make , then I've got work to do.
> The idea that because Sweetie and I divorced, that our reconciliation is somehow EASIER than those who chose to remain married, is preposterous and really offensive.
> I've gotten a couple of PM's saying how "lucky", I was, to be able to see other women, and not have the same worries that BS's who stayed married have to face. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?


rookie, I've received a lot of, shall we say, negative or even hostile PMs since I started posting on TAM. Sometimes people in their hurt and pain will lash out at others they see who they perceive as doing better than they did or are. When that happens I just say I'm sorry you are so hurt and I move on. I don't even give it a second thought other than to add that person to my prayer list. You and sweetie have not only gone through a lot but have both worked very hard to each become better. Now you are working together to not only be even better individually but as a couple as well. As long as you and she are happy being with each other then nothing else really matters right?


----------



## Rookie4

Sorry, Pidge, for the interuption. I am just venting a little. I hope that you are feeling better and that your noggin is getting better, too. You could use a break, right?


----------



## Lister

EI said:


> Rookie,
> 
> 
> When I first posted on TAM, I was on the receiving end of a lot harsh criticism and accusations. As a WS, that is certainly to be expected. Much of what was said was spot on, even if I didn't completely agree with it or understand it, at the time. Most people, whether BS's or WS's, don't arrive on TAM with all of the answers. If they had all of the answers they probably wouldn't be here, anyway. But, the truth is, not ALL of what was said to me and about me was true at all. Some of it wasn't even close..... even if it did come _"straight from the gospel of the cheater's script."_
> 
> 
> 
> If you had asked me within the first two months of posting here how I felt about TAM, I would have said that coming here was the "2nd" biggest mistake of my life. But, like staring at a train wreck, I just couldn't stop myself from coming back. Now, if you ask me about TAM, I would say that I think it has been our greatest resource in our reconciliation..... even more so than our marriage counselor.
> 
> So, anyway, that's my 2 cents worth for today.
> 
> Take care,
> EI


Hi EI, thanks for that, really useful to hear. As a WS I have started my own thread and have had a wee bit of a rough ride from one or two posters and at one point felt angry at what was being said and had to restrain from responding in colourful language. But other posts have been really helpful and insightful and made me think and reflect. Also had really good advice.

My question is how on earth do you find the time? It takes me ages to compose my thoughts let alone my posts. You and B1 seem to have amazingly busy lives (off the scale) and yet manage to post long and thoughtful posts. Respect!


----------



## Openminded

B1 said:


> Reconciliation....
> 
> Some definitions:
> 
> to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations between (two or more people)
> to settle (a quarrel or difference)
> to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other
> from Latin reconciliare to bring together again, from re- + conciliare to make friendly, conciliate ]
> 
> What does it mean to you?


What I thought it meant for me was making my marriage whole again. I tried that for 30 years after my husband cheated (even when he resumed, for a brief period, contact with the OW a few years ago). 

But one day I decided I no longer wanted to live this life and I plan to file for divorce soon. I wish I had done it then because, looking back, I really didn't make my marriage whole during those 30 years since the affair. I just put a bandage on it.

So would I do it again? No. But I admire those who can make it work.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

A question for successful longterm reconcilers: Do you ever suddenly out of the blue get the wellknown thought from short after d-day "how the fvck could you do this to me?"


----------



## daisygirl 41

cpacan said:


> A question for successful longterm reconcilers: Do you ever suddenly out of the blue get the wellknown thought from short after d-day "how the fvck could you do this to me?"


Yes it still slaps me across the face now and again, the realisation of the hurt and deceit. Sometimes giving up appears to be the easier option, some days it's just too exhausting, then out of the blue he'll do something to show me how much he's really changed and how he's doing his best to ease my pain, and I remember why I'm still in the game!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Lister said:


> Hi EI, thanks for that, really useful to hear. As a WS I have started my own thread and have had a wee bit of a rough ride from one or two posters and at one point felt angry at what was being said and had to restrain from responding in colourful language. But other posts have been really helpful and insightful and made me think and reflect. Also had really good advice.


B1 and I were talking just last week about you and your wife. A lot of people who post on this thread started with threads of their own and took a pretty good psychological beating on TAM. The worst is reserved for WS's.... which is understandable. But, when a BS does not adhere to the TAM doctrine, they can get pretty beat up, as well. Yet, _*most *_ of what is said to them is coming from those whom have "been there, done that." More often than not, the advice is pretty accurate. Occasionally, the initial harsh delivery can cause people to feel too defeated, too frightened, and too vulnerable and they retreat back into their own world of dealing with things by themselves. And virtually everyone, WS's and BS's alike, in the early stages of the discovery of the infidelity..... or even when the BS is just starting to suspect their spouse of infidelity, believes their situation is the one that is uniquely different from all others. While it's true that every person, every marriage and every infidelity has it's own unique set of circumstances, it is quite uncanny how, both, BS's and WS's do follow a fairly predictable "script." Trust me when I say that I am loathe to admit that. As a WS coming to TAM, I didn't even know that there was a "script" and that I had been 'following' it.

Cheaters often live their 'secret lives' in isolation because they can't trust anyone with the knowledge of their infidelity and they don't want to make their friends and loved ones involuntarily complicit in their betrayal. Therefore cheaters learn the "tricks of the trade" as they go. I know, now, that there are websites that are, actually, cheater friendly and give all sorts of advice and tips on how to carry on an A without getting caught. I was completely unaware of those kinds of websites during the time that I was involved in my A and figured things out on my own as the A progressed. In truth, I have looked at one of those sites, simply out of curiosity, since learning about it on TAM. When I read from that site, I got so angry and upset that I had to wonder if I would have actually "benefited" from reading it during my A. But, not in the way that the site intended. I wonder if I would have seen myself in those people and would have become disgusted with my own actions..... or if I was so deeply entrenched in my own fog that I would have thought that I was different from them. The truth is, I don't know the answer to that. But, I strongly suspect that I would have thought of myself as different from them.... above them. 

It has taken me many months of self-evaluation, therapy, and literally hundreds of hours of conversations with B1.... and TAM, to really wrap my brain around what I had allowed myself to become. In the in aftermath of D-Day, and for a few months, thereafter, I was a classic blame-shifter. The truth is, B1 and I had let our marriage deteriorate to the point of becoming completely irreconcilable. I didn't have to re-write any history in our marriage to make it "seem" bad. It WAS bad. Not the entire marriage, there was some very, very wonderful and amazing parts of it, as well. But, in the last several years, there was NO wonderful left. NONE..... He and I had, both, let the pressures of our very challenging life affect us in different ways. But, there came a time when I, genuinely, wanted to make things better between us. I wanted better for B1, the children and myself. And, I did try, I tried very hard, and for a very long time. But, B1 wasn't ready or able to rise up out of the adversity, yet. In fact, he let me know that "this was it.... this was as good as it was ever gonna get." He was defeated.... and he said that I needed to accept that. So, I did accept it.... but, I decided that I wasn't going to stay down with him. And, I told him that. But, he was too broken and too defeated to really do anything about it... so, I think it just went in one ear and out the other. That's where the "justifications" came in. That's when I decided that I "didn't have any other choice." Our children's needs and our finances made a quick divorce, virtually, impossible. 

So, I became SELFISH...... I compromised every value, every moral and every belief that I had ever held dear. I decided that our circumstances made it an "acceptable" compromise. I decided that our marriage was over for all practical purposes and that my cheating was "simply" a matter of self-preservation. The scary part is that I really came to believe that. In my mind, "reasons" became "justifications" and "justifications" became "excuses." But, there are no excuses, there are no justifications for infidelity. There are always _reasons_ that people cheat. And, _sometimes_, the reasons are that they _are_ in unhappy marriages. I know, now, that reasons are not justifications. Cheating is _always_ wrong. Unfortunately, the fact that I learned this the hard way, also means that my family has to suffer, as well. Which, BTW, causes me more pain, more sadness, more hurt and more damage to my emotional well being than I ever suffered prior to my A.

I didn't figure all of this out overnight. It has taken many, many months. And, by the Grace of God, my husband has risen up out of his adversity. He has, also, shown me love, grace, mercy, compassion, humility and forgiveness that I no longer feel worthy of having. I'm hopeful that time will heal some of that for me. Now, we're working on "us," together. What was once "irreconcilable" is being rebuilt, remade and renewed, one day at a time. I think it's possible. It's not easy, but we believe that we're worth it.



Lister said:


> My question is how on earth do you find the time? It takes me ages to compose my thoughts let alone my posts. You and B1 seem to have amazingly busy lives (off the scale) and yet manage to post long and thoughtful posts. Respect!


Honestly, I had been putting a great deal of time and energy into something that was very wrong and very damaging for a long time. Now, I put that time and energy into my marriage and my relationship with B1. Posting here has been a part of that journey. But, yes, there are times when I have to say, "Okay, that's enough TAM time, for now." This is one of those times.

Thank you for the compliment. I wish you and Star Gazer the best in your reconciliation.


----------



## EI

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> A question for successful longterm reconcilers: Do you ever suddenly out of the blue get the wellknown thought from short after d-day "how the fvck could you do this to me?"



I'm sorry that you're still struggling so much with this, cpacan.....


----------



## bfree

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> A question for successful longterm reconcilers: Do you ever suddenly out of the blue get the wellknown thought from short after d-day "how the fvck could you do this to me?"


I'm not even married to my ex anymore and I still get that. When you are betrayed but the one you most trust and love in the world its a wound that never really heals fully. The best you can do is use it as an experience to make yourself a better person.


----------



## ChangingMe

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> A question for successful longterm reconcilers: Do you ever suddenly out of the blue get the wellknown thought from short after d-day "how the fvck could you do this to me?"


The more time that goes by, the more often I ask that question of myself. 

Just last night, DD and I were watching TV, and I fell asleep. He woke me when he was ready to go to bed. I stumbled into bed, and he laid next to me, and I immediately became awake and panicky. He fell right to sleep and I laid there just going over in the my head how it was that I could do what I did. I can't believe I became that person, that I am still technically the same person that betrayed and damaged the person I love the most, even though I barely recognize her. It took a long time for me to fall back asleep.


----------



## calvin

cpacan said:


> A question for successful longterm reconcilers: Do you ever suddenly out of the blue get the wellknown thought from short after d-day "how the fvck could you do this to me?"


Yeah,it happens and it sucks bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> I'm sorry that you're still struggling so much with this, cpacan.....


Yeah, so am I. It's not all bad though. It's just sometimes this thought pops up and has to be fought off.



bfree said:


> I'm not even married to my ex anymore and I still get that. When you are betrayed but the one you most trust and love in the world its a wound that never really heals fully. The best you can do is use it as an experience to make yourself a better person.


This is what I suspect, that it will always be there somewhere with the potential to ruin, if not a day, then maybe an hour or maybe just minutes.
And I do use this as a valuable learning experience, and in that respect, I am in a strange way happy about it (like recent posts discussed), but it's not all wisdom derived from this that I am equally happy about.

Just curious if those further along in healing still get these moments of... you know.


----------



## Rookie4

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



ChangingMe said:


> The more time that goes by, the more often I ask that question of myself.
> 
> Just last night, DD and I were watching TV, and I fell asleep. He woke me when he was ready to go to bed. I stumbled into bed, and he laid next to me, and I immediately became awake and panicky. He fell right to sleep and I laid there just going over in the my head how it was that I could do what I did. I can't believe I became that person, that I am still technically the same person that betrayed and damaged the person I love the most, even though I barely recognize her. It took a long time for me to fall back asleep.


CM, you are definitely not alone with those thoughts. Sweetie told me the other day that she feels like this a lot. She will be doing something that she likes, and she will suddenly think." I'm not worthy of happiness", or "how could I do something so loathsome?" On the way home from Valentines day she said the same thing to me. I'm so happy but I know I don't deserve it. I hate it when she says that. I WANT her to be happy and not filled with shame and self-loathing, and it's really hard to know what to do or say to help her .


----------



## B1

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



Rookie4 said:


> CM, you are definitely not alone with those thoughts. Sweetie told me the other day that she feels like this a lot. She will be doing something that she likes, and she will suddenly think." I'm not worthy of happiness", or "how could I do something so loathsome?" On the way home from Valentines day she said the same thing to me. I'm so happy but I know I don't deserve it. I hate it when she says that. *I WANT her to be happy and not filled with shame and self-loathing,* and it's really hard to know what to do or say to help her .


Wow, Rookie, that's awesome. I feel the same about EI. 
If you want happiness, then just like R, it takes two.


----------



## B1

cpa,

I know I am not considered long term, but WE are almost at 9 months out past Dday.

I have moments where I get hit upside the head with a thought or image. For me, I actually understand the how and why, but...sometimes I do think...."I just can't believe you did it". 
I can still be shocked by it. 

I know what I did and her thinking at the time. But, knowing EI, it's just something I never thought she would do, ever, not to me and not to herself. But then again, that's probably how every BS on here feels. 

I'm just glad we got through the last 9 months and we stuck it out.
We have both worked so hard and come a long way. We still have a ways to go but I feel we are on the right road, together as man and wife. I can't wait to renew our vows next year.


----------



## ChangingMe

I need help. 

I woke up to DD's post on his thread, which has totally knocked the wind out of me. I have struggled to stop from crying all morning. Thankfully, I don't think the kids noticed. 

I move offices tomorrow. There is an unbelievable amount of stuff to do today, and all I want to do is curl up in a ball on the floor and cry. 

I have what I have done. I hate that my husband cannot stand me. I hate that he can't even talk to me and I have to read it on his thread. 

Please forgive my pity party. I am really, really struggling today.


----------



## calvin

Praying hardcore for you both CM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

CM I know you are scared and freaking out but you are gonna be ok..I'll tell you what you always tell me when Calvin gets that way..stay busy. This stuff is too much for any BS' head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

I'm so sorry CM. Sending you strength today.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by cpacan
> A question for successful longterm reconcilers: Do you ever suddenly out of the blue get the wellknown thought from short after d-day "how the fvck could you do this to me?"
> 
> 
> 
> *By B1*
> cpa,
> 
> I know I am not considered long term, but WE are almost at 9 months out past Dday.
> 
> I have moments where I get hit upside the head with a thought or image. For me, I actually understand the how and why, but...sometimes I do think...."I just can't believe you did it".
> I can still be shocked by it.
> 
> I know what I did and her thinking at the time. But, knowing EI, it's just something I never thought she would do, ever, not to me and not to herself. But then again, that's probably how every BS on here feels.
> 
> I'm just glad we got through the last 9 months and we stuck it out.
> We have both worked so hard and come a long way. We still have a ways to go but I feel we are on the right road, together as man and wife. I can't wait to renew our vows next year.



*I am considered long term with many years of successful R.
It took me longer than 9 months but I never have the thought anymore of :*


> "how the fvck could you do this to me?"
> 
> 
> I have moments where I get hit upside the head with a thought or image. For me, I actually understand the how and why, but...sometimes I do think...."I just can't believe you did it".
> I can still be shocked by it.


*Once in a great while when I come to a very strong trigger I get a little uneasy for just a few minutes; never lasts hours or days.*


I can't wait to renew our vows next year. 
*B1 is kicking R into high gear!*

*I have heard people on this forum say that it takes up to 5 years for some people to get the full benefit of successful R. I think that B1 and EI are ahead of schedule*


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hang on in there CM and DD
Thinking of you
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Sorry CM, just sorry you two are in a bad place right now 

I hope and pray things improve.


----------



## EI

I know this is hard, CM, but hang in there. I think it might be better that DD is venting "some" of these emotions rather than keeping them all bottled up inside. At least he can get some perspective from others that these feelings are to be expected at this stage of reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> I need help.
> 
> I woke up to DD's post on his thread, which has totally knocked the wind out of me. I have struggled to stop from crying all morning. Thankfully, I don't think the kids noticed.
> 
> I move offices tomorrow. There is an unbelievable amount of stuff to do today, and all I want to do is curl up in a ball on the floor and cry.
> 
> I have what I have done. I hate that my husband cannot stand me. I hate that he can't even talk to me and I have to read it on his thread.
> 
> Please forgive my pity party. I am really, really struggling today.


Two things.

First this is the roller coaster that all BS's go through. In DD's case because he was on meds for a while this part of R didn't happen earlier when it should have. He needs to go through these times in order to come out the other side. Heck just look back on some older posts by calvin and CSS when they were going through the down swings. Now look at them all lovey dovey even though I'm sure they still struggle. There will be a lot of these swings until things settle down.

Second thing. I know you've been spending a lot of time with the move lately. Is it possible that you've had to (understandably) give so much more time to that issue that DD has been left alone with his thoughts more than in the past months? I'm not saying you are to blame for that but could DD be dealing with not having you there as much for him lately?


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> *
> 
> I have heard people on this forum say that it takes up to 5 years for some people to get the full benefit of successful R. I think that B1 and EI are ahead of schedule*


Thank you, Mr. Blunt, for your ongoing support of our reconciliation. Your continued encouragement and words of affirmation do not go unnoticed or unappreciated. They have been more helpful than you know and often come at a time when they are most needed.

I do feel like B1 is handling this extraordinarily well. I hope he truly is and that he is not keeping the anger (that so many predicted was sure to come) bottled up inside. I hope that I am giving him everything that I possibly can to help him heal. I want this to be real and lasting...... And, I want him to fully heal. Because, (whether this is selfish of not I can't decide) until he is fully healed, I will not be able to forgive myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> Thank you, Mr. Blunt, for your ongoing support of our reconciliation. Your continued encouragement and words of affirmation do not go unnoticed or unappreciated. They have been more helpful than you know and often come at a time when they are most needed.
> 
> I do feel like B1 is handling this extraordinarily well. I hope he truly is and that he is not keeping the anger (that so many predicted was sure to come) bottled up inside. I hope that I am giving him everything that I possibly can to help him heal. I want this to be real and lasting...... And, I want him to fully heal. Because, (whether this is selfish of not I can't decide) until he is fully healed, I will not be able to forgive myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EI, I've wanted to say this for a while now but until recently I didn't feel comfortable enough. I believe B1 had a low testosterone problem. As a woman I'm not sure you completely comprehend how much that can affect a man. Its as if it rips everything of who you are away. I had a very good friend who had ED (probably caused by low test) but was too proud to go to the doctor for treatment. I watched his personality change over the course of a couple of years into someone I didn't even recognize. He ended up committing suicide. Another friend of ours also has low testosterone and he said its like he has no energy, no strength and no will to live at times. B1 getting that condition treated is huge and I would bet that is one of the main reasons why your R is so far along. Well, that and he's such an awesome guy.


----------



## CantSitStill

We are still going thru what CM and DD are going thru. He's been thinkng about pulling the plug. We aren't that great right now and I can only hope it gets better but I don't know if it will get better or worse. I will not even allow myself to believe it when he tells me he loves me and is done with thinking about D. I know that on those days he doesn't know that he will have days again where he will wanna pull that plug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

There are people on TAM that give R a try for a year or two then just can't so land up divorcing. I am fully aware that this is my fault and I should have worked on my marriage a long time ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

No ones leaving.
I mean it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It's ok honey..we are riding this rollercoaster together and I know you don't deserve this AT ALL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Calvin, glad to see your sticking around


----------



## Rags

We (collectively) seem to be reaching a low point ... I hope things improve.

Selfish of me, I know, but I like to hear about you guys doing well.

So, as a personal favour to me ...


----------



## EI

Calvin and CSS, you have both been at this long enough to know that these ups and downs are cyclical. When you're on the down side it feels like things will never go up again, and when you're on the up side you feel like you've finally got this thing covered........ only to be shaken to the core when the inevitable "downs" come again. I think, in many ways, reconciliation is not unlike marriage. You have good times and bad times. It's just that after something as devastating as infidelity strikes a marriage, every "down" feels like it might be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back. 

No one or nothing will decide the fate of your marriage except for the two of you. You, obviously, love one another. Just keep getting up every day, love one another, be the best Calvin and CSS that you each know how to be. Healing takes time..... You have the rest of your lives. I'm confident that the two of you are still going to be hashing out your "ups and downs," on TAM for the rest of your lives....... Together! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Rags said:


> We (collectively) seem to be reaching a low point ... I hope things improve.
> 
> Selfish of me, I know, but I like to hear about you guys doing well.
> 
> So, as a personal favour to me ...


We'll see what we can do for ya Buddy! B1 and I are having dinner at Outback. We're waiting for our table now. I'm wearing new lingerie under my clothes. Is this a good start?

Talk to us....... How's life treating you these days???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> Calvin, glad to see your sticking around


It still gets to me even after a year and any BS who tells you different is lying.
Its hard,it really is.
So it did'nt go physical,does it really matter?
I guess I'm a freak.Some people wonder why it still messes with my head.
I cant see her out there on her own either.
I love her,I'm a smuck in love...ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

EI said:


> We'll see what we can do for ya Buddy! B1 and I are having dinner at Outback. We're waiting for our table now. I'm wearing new lingerie under my clothes. Is this a good start?
> 
> Talk to us....... How's life treating you these days???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I appreciate that. 

& Outback ... blooming onions .. yum ... (I had one whan I was in the states some years back - loved it - even if the portion sizes eventually made me look wistfully at the children's menu ..)

I'd almost say TMI about the lingerie, but actually that's cool. (When I went to bed last night, for a break in work, my wife was waiting, wearing the lingerie she got at Christmas .... she'd been away for a week with family, and we made the most of catching up  )

My life is mental, work-wise. Been doing stupid hours, due to an upgrade last weekend that didn't go quite as smoothly as it might have .. not our fault in any way - DBAs screwed it up - but we've had hold the system together with chewing gum, sellotape and spit/sweat most of this week - I'm online now, monitoring to see if the last of the major issues is fixed by the change I just had made ... I have high hopes.

Then I might go upstairs, and wake my wife up. Or maybe she'll be more receptive in the morning, if I can wait that long ...


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> It still gets to me even after a year and any BS who tells you different is lying.
> Its hard,it really is.
> So it did'nt go physical,does it really matter?
> I guess I'm a freak.Some people wonder why it still messes with my head.
> I cant see her out there on her own either.
> I love her,I'm a smuck in love...ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. A yr is still early into it man. It took me 2 to stop being a moody basket case.


----------



## MattMatt

My butt is hurting.  My sciatica is really... bad and I... oh, b*****ks! *Did I just type that out loud?* 

Please, folks, keep with the recovery, OK? :smthumbup:

I just made my wife a pot of tea, now I'll go get some painkillers. (I really do have bad sciatica tonight!):rofl:


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> My butt is hurting.  My sciatica is really... bad and I... oh, b*****ks! *Did I just type that out loud?*
> 
> Please, folks, keep with the recovery, OK? :smthumbup:
> 
> I just made my wife a pot of tea, now I'll go get some painkillers. (I really do have bad sciatica tonight!):rofl:


I'll give you a butt rub M&M.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

calvin said:


> I'll give you a butt rub M&M.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Woh .. wasn't expecting some Bromance ... !


----------



## calvin

Rags said:


> Woh .. wasn't expecting some Bromance ... !


No,just helping my Limey bro out,if it was his feet,I'd give him a foot rub.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

I suspect I'm closer. But then, I'm not offering a massage ...

(Then again, I'm now so tired, I'm probably barely coherent - feel free to ignore anything I type ... as of course, everyone is always free to do!)

Mmm ... Lime juice ...


----------



## MattMatt

Rags said:


> I suspect I'm closer. But then, I'm not offering a massage ...
> 
> (Then again, I'm now so tired, I'm probably barely coherent - feel free to ignore anything I type ... as of course, everyone is always free to do!)
> 
> Mmm ... Lime juice ...


Thanks, folks! Somehow, I feel better already.

Lime juice? Drat. Just realised, I ran out of my chocolate and lime drink from Whitards, yesterday...


----------



## Rags

Never EVER run out of chocolate ... ever.

Not ever.

(I sound like Taylor Swift .. even if I'm not as young, or blonde, or attractive, or rich ... ahh well....at least I can make a relationship last longer than one of her songs ....)


----------



## calvin

Too many Limeys,its like 1776 OR 1812 all over again.
The Limeys are coming,the limeys are coming!!
Crumpet eating,tea drinking,French loving....
Ahh,its ok...Benny Hill made up for all of that.
Dr.Who and Monty Python also.
And M&M cracks me up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> It still gets to me even after a year and any BS who tells you different is lying.
> Its hard,it really is.
> So it did'nt go physical,does it really matter?
> I guess I'm a freak.Some people wonder why it still messes with my head.
> I cant see her out there on her own either.
> I love her,I'm a smuck in love...ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, it's hard, but please know this, it is worth it. _Seriously_. *Really.* *Worth it*.


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Calvin, it's hard, but please know this, it is worth it. _Seriously_. *Really.* *Worth it*.


I know M&M,believe me I know.
I wish we didnt have to go down this road to get to where we should be.
Everything will be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Too many Limeys,its like 1776 OR 1812 all over again.
> The Limeys are coming,the limeys are coming!!
> Crumpet eating,tea drinking,French loving....
> Ahh,its ok...Benny Hill made up for all of that.
> Dr.Who and Monty Python also.
> And M&M cracks me up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


French loving?  Steady on old chap!:rofl:


----------



## EI

You guys are getting slap happy!  LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Rags said:


> Never EVER run out of chocolate ... ever.
> 
> Not ever.
> 
> (I sound like Taylor Swift .. even if I'm not as young, or blonde, or attractive, or rich ... ahh well....at least I can make a relationship last longer than one of her songs ....)


I have some Green and Black's organic cocoa, bit stronger than drinking chocolate, though...


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> You guys are getting slap happy!  LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah,I'm going to crank up my wireless and hope the Bobbies dont come.
I might have to get on the motorway,hope I dont get a tast for fish and chips.
God save the Queen and all that.
Hip,hip and cherrio govenor!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Rags said:


> I'd almost say TMI about the lingerie, but actually that's cool.


Uh-Oh, I'm thinking that you haven't read this entire thread, have you?    :rofl:

'Cuz Dig us told a shocking story about him running around some campground while wearing only Regret's panties.......... 

Then, there was this one trollop, who posts on this thread, who was dancing on the back deck with her husband, wearing only a few scant pieces of Victoria's Secret lingerie, one dark and stormy night last summer!!!  Things were going quite nicely for her and her husband, until they were "busted" by their 17 year old son. At least that's how "I" heard the story.......


----------



## SomedayDig

God...I've had a couple drinks and now I'm craving fish and chips.

Like the real deal, not the stuff at the American stores. I'm talking malt vinegar and everything.

Darn!! Munchies.


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> 'Cuz Dig us told a shocking story about him running around some campground while wearing only Regret's panties..........


One of the more glorious moments of my life with her :rofl:


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Yeah,I'm going to crank up my wireless and hope the Bobbies dont come.
> I might have to get on the motorway,hope I dont get a tast for fish and chips.
> God save the Queen and all that.
> Hip,hip and cherrio govenor!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, dude, that was, like, awesome!:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

SomedayDig said:


> God...I've had a couple drinks and now I'm craving fish and chips.
> 
> Like the real deal, not the stuff at the American stores. I'm talking malt vinegar and everything.
> 
> Darn!! Munchies.


Darn! Now you are making me hungry and everywhere is closed as it is really, really late!


----------



## EI

Rags said:


> Woh .. wasn't expecting some Bromance ... !


On the "R" thread, one learns to expect the unexpected...... Because, honestly, just about anything goes! We have covered an extremely *WIDE* range of subjects. So, a "bromance" is really just another day at the office! 

Here is example. During dinner, B1 was staring at me throughout the entire meal! He was making all kinds of inside jokes and sexual innuendo!  As soon as we got home, he followed me into the bedroom while I was getting into 'something more comfortable....' I excused myself, for a moment, to freshen up in the bathroom. Upon coming out of the bathroom, I find B1 :sleeping: on the couch.... 

I love that silly boy! But, when he wakes up...... Well, I didn't let him take me to dinner for nothin' LOL :rofl:


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Hey, dude, that was, like, awesome!:smthumbup:


Duuuudddddeee
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Duuuudddddeee
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I learned to say "awesome" in California.

I taught them to speak in broad Brummie. 

We had such fun, over some Lagunitas IPA!


----------



## ChangingMe

Thanks for the support earlier. Really rough, exhausting day. Thanks to my ladies for reaching out via phone & text-I really can't express how much it helps. Though since you guys are former waywards yourself, I think you know. 

We went to dinner & grocery shopping as a family. We can do well when we are all together. DD interacts almost solely with the children, but he is so good with them, and they really are the most amazing kids ever, that it still makes it a good time. 

Hot tub is heating up, which is where we do our best talking. A little nervous about how it will go, but at least he agreed to get in with me, so that's something. 

Thanks again to you all. I really feel beneath any positive words or support, and I really can't express how much they mean to me when you give them -either here or on DD's thread or in PMs. Thank you. I appreciate you all.


----------



## MattMatt

ChangingMe said:


> Thanks for the support earlier. Really rough, exhausting day. Thanks to my ladies for reaching out via phone & text-I really can't express how much it helps. Though since you guys are former waywards yourself, I think you know.
> 
> We went to dinner & grocery shopping as a family. We can do well when we are all together. DD interacts almost solely with the children, but he is so good with them, and they really are the most amazing kids ever, that it still makes it a good time.
> 
> Hot tub is heating up, which is where we do our best talking. A little nervous about how it will go, but at least he agreed to get in with me, so that's something.
> 
> Thanks again to you all. I really feel beneath any positive words or support, and I really can't express how much they mean to me when you give them -either here or on DD's thread or in PMs. Thank you. I appreciate you all.


As a former WS and a former BS, I feel for both of you. I know the hurt of betrayal from both sides.

And my own betrayal hurt me the most.


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> Thanks for the support earlier. Really rough, exhausting day. Thanks to my ladies for reaching out via phone & text-I really can't express how much it helps. Though since you guys are former waywards yourself, I think you know.
> 
> We went to dinner & grocery shopping as a family. We can do well when we are all together. DD interacts almost solely with the children, but he is so good with them, and they really are the most amazing kids ever, that it still makes it a good time.
> 
> Hot tub is heating up, which is where we do our best talking. A little nervous about how it will go, but at least he agreed to get in with me, so that's something.
> 
> Thanks again to you all. I really feel beneath any positive words or support, and I really can't express how much they mean to me when you give them -either here or on DD's thread or in PMs. Thank you. I appreciate you all.


You both have a nice hot soak and relax.
Lean on eachother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hoping your talk tonight goes well CM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

CM, I hope your talk tonight is honest, realistic, dispassionate, and productive. You have decisions to make, both of you , and you need to make them for the right reasons. The absolute best of luck to you both.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> EI, I've wanted to say this for a while now but until recently I didn't feel comfortable enough. I believe B1 had a low testosterone problem. As a woman I'm not sure you completely comprehend how much that can affect a man. Its as if it rips everything of who you are away. I had a very good friend who rhad ED (probably caused by low test) but was too proud to go to the doctor for treatment. I watched his personality change over the course of a couple of years into someone I didn't even recognize. He ended up committing suicide. Another friend of ours also has low testosterone and he said its like he has no energy, no strength and no will to live at times. B1 getting that condition treated is huge and I would bet that is one of the main reasons why your R is so far along. Well, that and he's such an awesome guy.


bfree, never hesitate to say anything on this thread. That's the beauty of anonymity. And, yes, B1 and I, both, have a much greater understanding, now, of the effects of low T than the average person who has normal amounts will ever need to know. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. B1 has apologized to me more times than I can count, not only for how his having low T affected him, but also how it, consequently, affected my life as well.

As for me, well, I apologize to him everyday for taking the selfish, coward's way out of my unhappiness. He and I both hurt each other. We recognize that and we are doing all that we can to help each heal and move beyond this. I'm still saddened though. Although, the effects of his low T and his treatment of me during the worst of that time hurt me deeply, it is so much easier for me to forgive him and for me to heal now that I understand that he had a condition that was completely beyond his control until the condition was diagnosed and successfully treated. Having low T is not a character defect. Being selfish and a coward is. I wish I could have lived my whole life not knowing that I was capable of such lies, deceipt and betrayal. If I had never done it, then I would swear to this day that it was something that I'd never do. In my case, ignorance would have been bliss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

MattMatt said:


> As a former WS and a former BS, I feel for both of you. I know the hurt of betrayal from both sides.
> 
> And my own betrayal hurt me the most.


Amen, brother


----------



## Rags

calvin said:


> Too many Limeys,its like 1776 OR 1812 all over again.
> The Limeys are coming,the limeys are coming!!
> Crumpet eating,tea drinking,*French loving....*
> Ahh,its ok...Benny Hill made up for all of that.
> Dr.Who and Monty Python also.
> And M&M cracks me up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I find THAT offensive! 

(No one hates thet French like we do ... )


----------



## MattMatt

Rags said:


> And I find THAT offensive!
> 
> (No one hates thet French like we do ... )


Rags, that's not quite true. The French are not worthy of our hate. 

_(Please note, these posts are meant in a jocular manner. No Frenchmen or women were hurt during the manufacture of these posts.)_


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Rags, that's not quite true. The French are not worthy of our hate.
> 
> _(Please note, these posts are meant in a jocular manner. No Frenchmen or women were hurt during the manufacture of these posts.)_


I remember when I was in the Boy Scouts,we went to France.
Ad soon as we got off the plane they thought we were invading and surrendered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## StarGazer101

CM - I cannot imagine how you must have felt reading that post ... another kick when you are trying so hard  I hope you can pick yourself up and just keep trying to find a way through with the same fortitude you have shown thus far. I am rooting for you both.


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> Thanks for the support earlier. Really rough, exhausting day. Thanks to my ladies for reaching out via phone & text-I really can't express how much it helps. Though since you guys are former waywards yourself, I think you know.
> 
> We went to dinner & grocery shopping as a family. We can do well when we are all together. DD interacts almost solely with the children, but he is so good with them, and they really are the most amazing kids ever, that it still makes it a good time.
> 
> Hot tub is heating up, which is where we do our best talking. A little nervous about how it will go, but at least he agreed to get in with me, so that's something.
> 
> Thanks again to you all. I really feel beneath any positive words or support, and I really can't express how much they mean to me when you give them -either here or on DD's thread or in PMs. Thank you. I appreciate you all.


just catching up with this, CM and DD, and i hope that you got to spend that time in the hot tub....

i relate so much to every up and down that you go through -- just have to echo what everyone says: under the best of circumstances, R is SO hard. i've had a bad week with triggers and memories, too. every time EI calls R "a rollercoaster," i nod my head. it's infuriating how you can be feeling so strong and seeing lots of positive R-related movement -- and then STILL that insane pain can come flooding through your mind and body. it's like the floor just drops out of your life for a minute or two (or a day or two).

and all of us BSs on TAM have encountered (or heard about) the WSs who don't get it, who never get it, and who maybe don't even care all that much as long as they can get away with what they are doing.

we also get to know the WSs on this thread like CM.

she's a person who has made terrible mistakes, like me. she has also stood up out of her mistakes with such honesty, love, humility, and commitment... i would like to say that i'm like that part of her, too, but i don't know! i think the unshrinking soul-searching that is demonstrated by the WSs on this thread is something that i'm still aspiring to. 

this R process is way too painful to try with a partner who doesn't get it and who isn't working as hard as they possibly can. and i understand that for some couples, it still isn't worth it. everyone is different.

but with a partner like these fWSs? d*mn. not only does it seem worth it, i believe that these fWSs are going to end up being some of the wisest, most open, most loving, most compassionate husbands, wives, and parents around. 

as i said, i am having a bad week, and i feel that pain along with the other BSs. but i believe in you, CM


----------



## B1

Rags said:


> I appreciate that.
> 
> & Outback ... blooming onions .. yum ... (I had one whan I was in the states some years back - loved it - even if the portion sizes eventually made me look wistfully at the children's menu ..)
> 
> I'd almost say TMI about the lingerie, but actually that's cool. (When I went to bed last night, for a break in work, my wife was waiting, wearing the lingerie she got at Christmas .... she'd been away for a week with family, and we made the most of catching up  )
> 
> My life is mental, work-wise. Been doing stupid hours, due to an upgrade last weekend that didn't go quite as smoothly as it might have .. not our fault in any way - DBAs screwed it up - but we've had hold the system together with chewing gum, sellotape and spit/sweat most of this week - I'm online now, monitoring to see if the last of the major issues is fixed by the change I just had made ... I have high hopes.
> 
> Then I might go upstairs, and wake my wife up. Or maybe she'll be more receptive in the morning, if I can wait that long ...


DBA's?? hey....
WE, I mean they, never screw things up, it's usually the Admins or network guys that make a mess of things. They use things like chewing gum and sellotape to hold servers together. Everyone knows your supposed to use duct tape and super glue...  well, unless it's a UNIX server, then you use gum, sellotape and possibly a rubber band


----------



## ChangingMe

Oh, margrace, thank you. I appreciate your kind words and your faith in me more than you know.


----------



## B1

margrace, sorry your having a bad week also. It seems to be going around, like some bad cold.

EI and I have been talking a lot about where I am and why. I have been in a pretty good place now for a month or so. It's NOT perfect, I can still hurt pretty bad at times. But overall I am doing very well.

Why?

The only thing I can come up with is this. I know EI will never do that again, I just know it. I know she's sorry and she still works hard to help me. I understand the reasons why it happened. And though they are not excuses or justifications, I do know the why.
That helps me a lot, I know just how bad of a place EI was in, I also know something know one else knows, and that's just how bad I rejected her. Now, the biggie, LOVE. My love for this woman is huge, it outweighs the hurt and overshadows the pain. My love simply exceeds the hurt.

Now, this doesn't mean I don't hurt, because there isn't a day that goes by that, at some point, I do hurt. I have to fight off the urge to play the movies, and process those horrific images. In saying that, over time it's gotten much easier and the battles are less frequent. When the bad stuff comes, I can think about how much I love her, and how much she loves me. I can reflect on things she's said that prove she's truly sorry and remorseful. Sometimes I will read old texts or emails to help me with that.

Then there are the times that I can't let it go, I loose the battle and I either cry, or I seek EI out to ask her a question about the A. But, even in this, I know we are ok, we will make it. I told EI just the other day that I will still have issues, still have a question pop up, still cry some. This doesn't mean I want to end it, it simply means I am struggling and I need some help.

I want EI to know that I am NOT giving up, that just because I am having a bad moment, or God forbid a bad day that it doesn't mean my overall goals have changed for us. I want life, love and happiness with her and that will not change.

So in summing this up. I guess I am doing ok because I know she's sorry, I understand the why, I know my part in the breakdown of our marriage, I know she won't do it again, I love her so very much, I want happiness and I firmly believe I can have that with her. 
EI is an amazing woman, smart, funny, caring, loving, giving and beautiful and I want her, I choose her and she wants and chooses me.

WE both mad a mess of things over the past several years. We have learned from it, we fell off the horse but we both kicked off the dust and got right back on it. This marriage to me is worth another ride! and I believe this ride will be better than the first.

Maybe that's another thing I have going for me, I truly believe we can have a happy, truly happy marriage. We are good for each other.


----------



## bfree

B1 said:


> margrace, sorry your having a bad week also. It seems to be going around, like some bad cold.
> 
> EI and I have been talking a lot about where I am and why. I have been in a pretty good place now for a month or so. It's NOT perfect, I can still hurt pretty bad at times. But overall I am doing very well.
> 
> Why?
> 
> The only thing I can come up with is this. I know EI will never do that again, I just know it. I know she's sorry and she still works hard to help me. I understand the reasons why it happened. And though they are not excuses or justifications, I do know the why.
> That helps me a lot, I know just how bad of a place EI was in, I also know something know one else knows, and that's just how bad I rejected her. Now, the biggie, LOVE. My love for this woman is huge, it outweighs the hurt and overshadows the pain. My love simply exceeds the hurt.
> 
> Now, this doesn't mean I don't hurt, because there isn't a day that goes by that, at some point, I do hurt. I have to fight off the urge to play the movies, and process those horrific images. In saying that, over time it's gotten much easier and the battles are less frequent. When the bad stuff comes, I can think about how much I love her, and how much she loves me. I can reflect on things she's said that prove she's truly sorry and remorseful. Sometimes I will read old texts or emails to help me with that.
> 
> Then there are the times that I can't let it go, I loose the battle and I either cry, or I seek EI out to ask her a question about the A. But, even in this, I know we are ok, we will make it. I told EI just the other day that I will still have issues, still have a question pop up, still cry some. This doesn't mean I want to end it, it simply means I am struggling and I need some help.
> 
> I want EI to know that I am NOT giving up, that just because I am having a bad moment, or God forbid a bad day that it doesn't mean my overall goals have changed for us. I want life, love and happiness with her and that will not change.
> 
> So in summing this up. I guess I am doing ok because I know she's sorry, I understand the why, I know my part in the breakdown of our marriage, I know she won't do it again, I love her so very much, I want happiness and I firmly believe I can have that with her.
> EI is an amazing woman, smart, funny, caring, loving, giving and beautiful and I want her, I choose her and she wants and chooses me.
> 
> WE both mad a mess of things over the past several years. We have learned from it, we fell off the horse but we both kicked off the dust and got right back on it. This marriage to me is worth another ride! and I believe this ride will be better than the first.
> 
> Maybe that's another thing I have going for me, I truly believe we can have a happy, truly happy marriage. We are good for each other.


Perfect


----------



## SomedayDig

Man...I got tossed out with the bath water.

Yes. Today I celebrate that I was once a baby. LMAO!


----------



## MattMatt

B1 said:


> DBA's?? hey....
> WE, I mean they, never screw things up, it's usually the Admins or network guys that make a mess of things. They use things like chewing gum and sellotape to hold servers together. Everyone knows your supposed to use duct tape and super glue...  well, unless it's a UNIX server, then you use gum, sellotape and possibly a rubber band


We have a Windows server at work. If it had a name it would be Sir Crashalot.


----------



## MattMatt

SomedayDig said:


> Man...I got tossed out with the bath water.
> 
> Yes. Today I celebrate that I was once a baby. LMAO!


Oh! Sorry! I misread that! I thought you said tossed... oh... My bad!


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Man...I got tossed out with the bath water.
> 
> Yes. Today I celebrate that I was once a baby. LMAO!


*Hot Digity Dog, it's Dig's Birthday! Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday tooooooooo youuuuuuuu, Happy Birthday dear Diiiiiiiiiiiig, Happy Birthday to yoouuuuuuuuuu....... * :smthumbup:   

*Sorry if I was a little off key....... We all have colds at our house!   :rofl:* I really, really can sing better than this. I was a Pepsi Singer in high school. The choir I sang in was sponsored by Pepsi Cola. I still have my scarf and toboggan...... and everything...... really, really everything! I like to sing. True story! I should start singing for you guys more often!  LOL It would make y'all happy! 

Edited to add: EI is in a silly mood and B1 has left the house! I wonder if he didn't like my singing???  :scratchhead:


----------



## Fisherman

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> Man...I got tossed out with the bath water.
> 
> Yes. Today I celebrate that I was once a baby. LMAO!


Happy Birthday Dig!


----------



## ChangingMe

Happy birthday, Dig!

It's Moving Day! Not sure the effect of that on DD, but it is HUGE for me. Cannot wait to get out of my ”den of iniquity.” 

Last night was good. We actually didn't talk feelings or the affair. Just relaxed and talked about a ton of other stuff. Then we got in bed and he showed me a few videos on the iPad. It was very nice, felt like I wad hanging with my best friend. As much as I would love affection right now, if DD is just willing to be my friend, I'll take it. He really is my best friend.

He is at a flight lesson right now, then this evening we're going to his parents' house for dinner, so hopefully that will help his mood. 

Hope you all have a good weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Happy B-Day Dig! Any plans?
CM,glad to hear the more positive post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Happy Birthday Dig 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Drat. No smiley for a birthday cake... But we do have a birthday beer! :beer: :smthumbup:


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## EI

margrace said:


> i relate so much to every up and down that you go through -- just have to echo what everyone says: under the best of circumstances, R is SO hard. i've had a bad week with triggers........
> 
> ...........she has also stood up out of her mistakes with such honesty, love, humility, and commitment... i would like to say that i'm like that part of her, too, but i don't know!..........
> 
> as i said, i am having a bad week, and i feel that pain along with the other BSs. but i believe in you, CM



margrace,

Your posts are always so beautifully and thoughtfully written. From everything you've written here, it seems to me that you are doing everything that you can to give your WS an opportunity to do what he needs to do and must do, to begin reconciling your marriage. But, at this point, the "heavy lifting" (Man, I used to hate that phrase ...LOL) must be his to carry. You seem to have owned your part of the breakdown in the marriage. You've been very honest about that with us and I can't imagine that you haven't been with him. And, don't feel guilty if you don't say things as nicely to him as you say them to us. We're not the one who betrayed you...... It's a bit easier to say things more eloquently when you're not staring in the face of the one who betrayed you.

I have a sixth sense about you that you may be taking too much of the blame on yourself for what your WS did. Be careful that you understand that although you are responsible for your choices, your words, and your actions, you are NOT responsible for HIS. Don't let your guilt over having been a 'less than perfect spouse' get in the way of your need to heal from your spouse's betrayal. He needs to be actively working on understanding himself, bettering himself and doing everything he can to make amends to you and to helping you heal. And, he shouldn't be doing these things begrudgingly. He should want to. I don't enjoy lengthy Q & A sessions, in fact, I hate them. But, for my own reasons, I need for B1 to be "okay" as much as he needs to be "okay." So, we both do what we have to do to get there.

Okay, enough EI ramblings for this morning......

Take care,
EI


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## EI

Bobka........... Phone home!


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## daisygirl 41

Happy Birthday Dig xx

So hubby's exOw co worker has a temporary contract at the moment. Usually after 2 years any temp staff members automatically get made permanent. It has come to my attention that her job is being put to tenure!! This means her post is being advertised externally and she has to apply for it! Even though we work in separate schools we ha e recently become federated, which means we now share the same head teacher, whom I have known for 15 years. I wonder if my lovely friends are doing their magic behind the scenes? I'm not getting my hopes up, but there could be a chance that she'll be out of my life soon! I've told H, as long as they work together this will NEVER go away, so, fingers crossed!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Oh, DG, I hope that happens! Fingers crossed for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

I never know how to feel on this thread, so many different emotions, but I read and pray even if I dont have much to say.

Happy birthday Dig.

Dg, pulling for you.

Cm, my thoughts (and prayers) are with you and dd as I follow along.

Others too, everyone take care!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

test


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## SomedayDig

Okay...this is odd...I am stuck on page 329 and cannot get to page 330. I tried to do a test post to see if it would bring me there and it didn't. I can't even access it by going to my posts and clicking on it. Very odd.


----------



## CantSitStill

you're at the top of page 331
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

somehow you are missing page 330 weird
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> Okay...this is odd...I am stuck on page 329 and cannot get to page 330. I tried to do a test post to see if it would bring me there and it didn't. I can't even access it by going to my posts and clicking on it. Very odd.


I have had that happen too. Asked the mods. Site glitch.


----------



## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> test


Yes, you are not walking dead, old man.


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh it's a birthday trick lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Shhhhh! Don't tell him!


----------



## CantSitStill

: I
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Just got back from Johnny Rocket's for an awesome Double Smokehouse Burger and fries!! Oh....man! I'm gonna need to run a marathon tomorrow. But first ~ it's time to go listen to a band at my favorite watering hole...and fill in on drums for a song or two cuz it's my birthday and all


----------



## CantSitStill

So glad you're having a great birthday..gotta love when your birthday falls on the weekend
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

I'M MOVED!!!! I seriously feel like a weight has been taken off. Now it's off to the in laws for pizza, wine, and playing with their new telescope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Happy birthday Dig. Hope its a good one.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Okay...this is odd...I am stuck on page 329 and cannot get to page 330. I tried to do a test post to see if it would bring me there and it didn't. I can't even access it by going to my posts and clicking on it. Very odd.


Do you realize that ALL of your birthday messages are on page 330? That is totally something that would happen to me!


----------



## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> I'M MOVED!!!! I seriously feel like a weight has been taken off. Now it's off to the in laws for pizza, wine, and playing with their new telescope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have a great time. I'm happy that this weight is off your shoulders.


----------



## SomedayDig

CantSitStill said:


> So glad you're having a great birthday..gotta love when your birthday falls on the weekend
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Abso-freakin-lutely!! I had a great day. Regret was so sweet not letting me do anything around the house. She was in the kitchen cleaning, in the dining room cleaning...listening to music and even our 7 year old daughter was singing! Johnny Rocket's and then listening to the band last night. Oh...and I even sang to Regret the song that I sang to her at our wedding reception. 



ChangingMe said:


> I'M MOVED!!!! I seriously feel like a weight has been taken off. Now it's off to the in laws for pizza, wine, and playing with their new telescope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, boy!! Telescope!?! I love astronomy  I've got a 10" Meade LX90 ACF. When you can clearly see the rings of Saturn, it's just amazing.



EI said:


> Do you realize that ALL of your birthday messages are on page 330? That is totally something that would happen to me!


Seriously!?!! LMAO Sooooo typical!


----------



## SomedayDig

B1 said:


> Happy birthday Dig. Hope its a good one.


I would honestly say it was one of the best ever. My birthday present from Regret and the kids - a pair of khaki shorts. Seems kind of odd being that it was snowing and all yesterday up here. But then the meaning was clear because we'll be moving to Florida in July and it was a present about our future.


----------



## ChangingMe

SomedayDig said:


> Abso-freakin-lutely!! I had a great day. Regret was so sweet not letting me do anything around the house. She was in the kitchen cleaning, in the dining room cleaning...listening to music and even our 7 year old daughter was singing! Johnny Rocket's and then listening to the band last night. Oh...and I even sang to Regret the song that I sang to her at our wedding reception.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, boy!! Telescope!?! I love astronomy  I've got a 10" Meade LX90 ACF. When you can clearly see the rings of Saturn, it's just amazing.


That is so sweet about the song! Glad you had a great day. 

I think this is the telescope they got: CPC 1100 XLT GoTo Schmidt-Cass Telescope | Telescope.com: Celestron. It's awesome. We saw Jupiter and 4 of its moons, the Orion Nebula, and the craters on the moon were crystal clear. Can't wait to take it out when it's a new moon; the light from the moon was overshadowing a lot.


----------



## EI

There is a new thread this morning by "theroad" called "Tag Line Importance." He suggests that in the cases where, both, the BS and the WS are posting on TAM, that it would be most helpful for others who the trying to follow your stories if you would put your spouse's username in your signature line. 

I thought it was a good idea. I made a few changes to mine and thought that posting it, here, might be useful since several of us post on this thread. Of course, it's up to you guys!

Happy Sunday Reconcilers!

Take care,
~EI


----------



## EI

_"It has been said that people don't change. That may be true..... much of the time. Not always,.... and that's why true reconciliation is possible. True, life changing and mutually rewarding reconciliation can be even more beautiful than the day you first said 'I do.' Why, because the relationship has withstood the test of time. It's been weather worn and beaten down by the harsh realities of life..... You've reached your breaking point and there's nothing left..... save for that small emerging nascent voice within you saying... 'I'm not ready to give up, yet.' " ~ EI_

***********************************************
This morning B1 was reading his daily devotional which resulted in him sending this email to me:

_"a little excerpt from my daily devotional....

I didn't want to send at first, because it's so true, and it just amplifies my wrong, but it was my wrong and I'll own it, this is very telling...
_
_"To abandon desire is to say, 'I don't really need you; I don't really want you. But I will live with you because, well, I'm supposed to.' It is a grotesque corruption of what was meant to be a beautiful dance between desire and devotion."
_
So sorry :-(

I love you!"
***********************************************
My email back to him:

_"I knew it, I had known it for a long time........... :'(

Thankfully, I know different now! Just so you know, I do need you and I do want you............................" _<3

I love you, too, B1!


----------



## SomedayDig

ChangingMe said:


> That is so sweet about the song! Glad you had a great day.
> 
> I think this is the telescope they got: CPC 1100 XLT GoTo Schmidt-Cass Telescope | Telescope.com: Celestron. It's awesome. We saw Jupiter and 4 of its moons, the Orion Nebula, and the craters on the moon were crystal clear. Can't wait to take it out when it's a new moon; the light from the moon was overshadowing a lot.


Yes, that is a great scope! Seeing the Orion Nebula is quite a treat, too! Sounds like you had some great skies out there! I was seeing stars, but that was just the booze :rofl:


----------



## CantSitStill

When calvin and I first dated we used to look through his telescope  he still has the same one..that would be an excellent gift for him hehehe..can never figure out what to get him. He definately could use a new one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Somedaydig, I'm glad you had a happy B-day. And many returns of it. Mine is coming up shortly and the family is preparing for the worst.
We have a tradition in the Rookie family that the birthday boy or girl gets to do anything they want. Now I'm sure that most of you guys will say that that is OK, within reason. Trouble is, we in the Rookie family have forgotten the "within reason" part. So we usually go bat-**** crazy. IDK if you are a fan of country music, but here goes. Travis Tritt - Ten Feet Tall and Bulletproof (Ten Feet Tall and Bulletproof) - YouTube


----------



## daisygirl 41

It's Hubby's birthday next weekend. He's 41. It was the day before his 40th birthday last year that I was informed by OWs H that the A was still going on and they were planning to be together. How I held it together I will never know! But for my children's sake we celebrated His birthday together as a family. I bought him cards and presents from the children and a simple card from me which just said 'To my husband, on his birthday, I love you now and always". I was absolutely flames on TAM for that one, but do you know what, I had to go with my heart. H broke down when he got it, he sobbed like a baby, we managed to get through the day. Three weeks later he finished the affair and we started our reconciliation journey. He said to me that he couldn't believe that I could still love him and be so forgiving after all the hurt and pain he had caused us. He said he'd never realised how much I really did love him. That was the part I played in the destruction of our marriage. I was never able to accept his unconditional love for me, I found his compliments and need for physical attention and intimacy draining. I pushed him away at times and rejected him, and when he wasn't there, I craved for him, I longed for him.

We have a long way to go, but we are getting there. I'm not going to dwell on the past events of last years birthday, when it is time to celebrate next weekend. We have a 50th birthday party of a mutual friend to attend next Friday, and I'm going to make sure I look a knockout for him and lap up all his attention and love. Sunday ( his birthday) will be a family day. Lunch out and a movie. 

This thread is wonderful, you are all,so inspiring and honest, it's helped me to dig deep and truly begin to understand and heal from all the pain.

God bless you all
Xxx


----------



## margrace

EI said:


> margrace,
> 
> Your posts are always so beautifully and thoughtfully written. From everything you've written here, it seems to me that you are doing everything that you can to give your WS an opportunity to do what he needs to do and must do, to begin reconciling your marriage. But, at this point, the "heavy lifting" (Man, I used to hate that phrase ...LOL) must be his to carry. You seem to have owned your part of the breakdown in the marriage. You've been very honest about that with us and I can't imagine that you haven't been with him. And, don't feel guilty if you don't say things as nicely to him as you say them to us. We're not the one who betrayed you...... It's a bit easier to say things more eloquently when you're not staring in the face of the one who betrayed you.
> 
> I have a sixth sense about you that you may be taking too much of the blame on yourself for what your WS did. Be careful that you understand that although you are responsible for your choices, your words, and your actions, you are NOT responsible for HIS. Don't let your guilt over having been a 'less than perfect spouse' get in the way of your need to heal from your spouse's betrayal. He needs to be actively working on understanding himself, bettering himself and doing everything he can to make amends to you and to helping you heal. And, he shouldn't be doing these things begrudgingly. He should want to. I don't enjoy lengthy Q & A sessions, in fact, I hate them. But, for my own reasons, I need for B1 to be "okay" as much as he needs to be "okay." So, we both do what we have to do to get there.
> 
> Okay, enough EI ramblings for this morning......
> 
> Take care,
> EI


thank you, EI. i always appreciate your gentle approach and i think that, as usual, your sixth sense is on to something 

i have gotten a lot of clarity on the difference between having contributed to a bad marriage (which i did) and being responsible for WH's actions (which i am definitely not).

therapy has helped with all this as well. in the early part of our supposed R, we really only scratched the surface of talking about the A, and my WH was a COMPLETE non-believer that a therapist had anything to offer him. 

it took time but with the help of a great counselor, he has come around on all this. he told me over the weekend, that next week in MC, he wants to start coming clean about the details of his A that he has tried to hold back. 

"wants to" is probably an overstatement  but he knows that i require this to go forward.

this is where i think about your sixth sense, EI, and it's something that i talk about with my IC as well: i have to really stay with it, and _let_ him do it and _let_ him struggle.

he has the right to step up to this challenge (or not), to be fully accountable (or not), to do this hard soul-searching (or not), to come out of this as a better, wiser person (or not), and ultimately to show me that the marriage can be saved (or not). all this is legitimately on him. i can't fix it for us and i can't prevent the _or nots_.

for my part, i need to let him know when i need to talk or when i'm having a bad moment or a bad day. i hardly ever do that with anyone.


----------



## bfree

margrace said:


> thank you, EI. i always appreciate your gentle approach and i think that, as usual, your sixth sense is on to something
> 
> i have gotten a lot of clarity on the difference between having contributed to a bad marriage (which i did) and being responsible for WH's actions (which i am definitely not).
> 
> therapy has helped with all this as well. in the early part of our supposed R, we really only scratched the surface of talking about the A, and my WH was a COMPLETE non-believer that a therapist had anything to offer him.
> 
> it took time but with the help of a great counselor, he has come around on all this. he told me over the weekend, that next week in MC, he wants to start coming clean about the details of his A that he has tried to hold back.
> 
> "wants to" is probably an overstatement  but he knows that i require this to go forward.
> 
> this is where i think about your sixth sense, EI, and it's something that i talk about with my IC as well: i have to really stay with it, and _let_ him do it and _let_ him struggle.
> 
> he has the right to step up to this challenge (or not), to be fully accountable (or not), to do this hard soul-searching (or not), to come out of this as a better, wiser person (or not), and ultimately to show me that the marriage can be saved (or not). all this is legitimately on him. i can't fix it for us and i can't prevent the _or nots_.
> 
> for my part, i need to let him know when i need to talk or when i'm having a bad moment or a bad day. i hardly ever do that with anyone.


If you assume too much of the blame you are actually doing your H a disservice. He needs to deal with his faults and weaknesses. He needs to shore up his boundaries. He needs to do the work necessary to heal you and the marriage. If he isn't allowed to do those things then he will not learn and grow as a person and all of this will be for naught. When growing up I recall that some of the most painful and rewarding lessons occurred when my parents allowed me to make my own mistakes and consequently correct my own behavior. What is true in childhood is often true in adulthood.


----------



## CantSitStill

Just stopping over here to bump this thread and wake everyone up...it's so far down on the bottom of my updated threads : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Thank you CSS 
EI is having a rough night. Crying a lot, well actually non stop since I have been home. I just held her for about 30 minutes while she cried. It seems to be a mix of things, hormones, feeling bad about what she did and well, feeling like a bad person. I am comforting her as best I can but she's a mess right now.


----------



## ChangingMe

Hello everyone . . . SO worn out! Moving is exhausting. So much to do. Worked pretty much all day Saturday and Sunday, and then right back at it today. Taking a half day Wednesday to spend the afternoon with my kiddos, really looking forward to that. 

DD has gone above and beyond for me the last few days. I feel so overwhelmed and undeserving. He came up to the new office yesterday and set the computers up for me and helped hang pictures. Last night, he ran to Target to get 2 desks that I wanted to buy for the office. Today, I was stuck up there while the gas man and Verizon guy were working, so he took his lunch break to pick up food and bring it over (we work about 25 min apart). Right now, he is at an electronics store, getting wireless cards for the computers. Tomorrow is his work from home day, where he's normally here with our daughter, since she doesn't have preschool. He is going to bring her up to my office and work up there while he networks the computers and puts Windows Office on a donated one we got. 

Thankfully I get to pay him for his computer work out of my agency's budget, but he is really being wonderful and so helpful. He is such a good man. 

We still haven't processed the anger and sadness he was feeling last week, but he's seemed to be in a much better place since then. I know that we will continue to have our struggles, but I love him so much and I pray we can get through them.


----------



## happyman64

ChangingMe said:


> Hello everyone . . . SO worn out! Moving is exhausting. So much to do. Worked pretty much all day Saturday and Sunday, and then right back at it today. Taking a half day Wednesday to spend the afternoon with my kiddos, really looking forward to that.
> 
> DD has gone above and beyond for me the last few days. I feel so overwhelmed and undeserving. He came up to the new office yesterday and set the computers up for me and helped hang pictures. Last night, he ran to Target to get 2 desks that I wanted to buy for the office. Today, I was stuck up there while the gas man and Verizon guy were working, so he took his lunch break to pick up food and bring it over (we work about 25 min apart). Right now, he is at an electronics store, getting wireless cards for the computers. Tomorrow is his work from home day, where he's normally here with our daughter, since she doesn't have preschool. He is going to bring her up to my office and work up there while he networks the computers and puts Windows Office on a donated one we got.
> 
> Thankfully I get to pay him for his computer work out of my agency's budget, but he is really being wonderful and so helpful. He is such a good man.
> 
> We still haven't processed the anger and sadness he was feeling last week, but he's seemed to be in a much better place since then. I know that we will continue to have our struggles, but I love him so much and I pray we can get through them.


Work his butt off this week. And he can work your butt off when you get home.

Glad you guys are doing better this week.

PS
Glad for both of you that you are out of the old office. One less memory for both of you.


----------



## happyman64

B1 said:


> Thank you CSS
> EI is having a rough night. Crying a lot, well actually non stop since I have been home. I just held her for about 30 minutes while she cried. It seems to be a mix of things, hormones, feeling bad about what she did and well, feeling like a bad person. I am comforting her as best I can but she's a mess right now.


Glad you are there for her B1.

There is nothing like a hug, a rub on the back and the whisper in her ear that you love her.

Keep it up.


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> Thank you CSS
> EI is having a rough night. Crying a lot, well actually non stop since I have been home. I just held her for about 30 minutes while she cried. It seems to be a mix of things, hormones, feeling bad about what she did and well, feeling like a bad person. I am comforting her as best I can but she's a mess right now.


Sorry to hear that guys,I'm really starting to believe that the WS triggers also and they really do feel pain when they take stock of what they did.
They hate themselves and what happened.
Remorse is a real thing.
Sorry you guys are having a rough night.
You two take care of eachother.
Hope you both feel better soon.
Prayers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> Thank you CSS
> EI is having a rough night. Crying a lot, well actually non stop since I have been home. I just held her for about 30 minutes while she cried. It seems to be a mix of things, hormones, feeling bad about what she did and well, feeling like a bad person. I am comforting her as best I can but she's a mess right now.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

happyman64 said:


> And he can work your butt off when you get home.


Uh, I kinda put him to work that way too last night. I'm a demanding wife, that's for sure!  He didn't complain too much though.


----------



## ChangingMe

B1 said:


> EI is having a rough night. Crying a lot, well actually non stop since I have been home. I just held her for about 30 minutes while she cried. It seems to be a mix of things, hormones, feeling bad about what she did and well, feeling like a bad person. I am comforting her as best I can but she's a mess right now.


So sorry to hear that. Praying for you both.


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh boy sounds like she's going thru what I did yesterday, the non stop crying..Please don't over-think EI..I mean it. You are a good wife and mother and don't let anyone get you down, I mean it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

ChangingMe said:


> Uh, I kinda put him to work that way too last night. I'm a demanding wife, that's for sure!  He didn't complain too much though.


The best medicine!


----------



## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> Oh boy sounds like she's going thru what I did yesterday, the non stop crying..Please don't over-think EI..I mean it. You are a good wife and mother and don't let anyone get you down, I mean it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think from what B1 said the "anyone" is herself.

It happens.

And we know EI is in good hands.


----------



## CantSitStill

Ya I know all too well how hard a former WS beats themselves up..EI has helped me so much and she is a very very compassionate person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh Gosh...Did I trigger her with how I was crying all day yesterday? Crap
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Ya I know all too well how hard a former WS beats themselves up..EI has helped me so much and she is a very very compassionate person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah,they both are good people.
Always willing to listen and help out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Thanks all for the kind words and support, thanks to those who have contacted EI....
she's still crying, really feeling bad about herself. Doesn't feel worthy etc. I think she's letting out a ton of pain right now. Which in the long run can be a good thing. I am holding her on and off as she needs, letting her know she is loved and is a good person, which she is. 

It's tough to see her so down, so down on herself. Hopefully it will pass and not settle in. EI is a truly amazing woman I am honored to be her husband.


----------



## calvin

E1 is a strong woman with a strong husband.
You guys love eachother.
E1 is worth he weight in gold.
Hang on to her and keep letting her know what an 
excellent mother and wife she is.
She really impresses me a lot of the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Let me just tell you..after crying ALL day yesterday, I do feel better today..that release was needed...man I just couldn't stop. Then I though I was done and 2 min later was bawling again..once I start it's hard to stop..with us girls..everything floods us at once..she's gotta be exhausted from all this crying..Maybe run her a bath and make her get in there..try to get her to go to bed early tonight..oh and hang in there yourself B1
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

E1, B1
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee
John 8:11

Our greatest message to others about the grace of God comes from our own failures, E1 you are highly valued by those that know and love you and by our Father in Heaven, you have much to live for, take care sister!


----------



## Mr Blunt

*E1 and B1 are going through the test of fire and will be back on this board and in other places in their life and will be a source of strength to many!!!

This too shall pass

Blunt*


----------



## Rookie4

EI, it's the combination of things. Sweetie has been doing the same thing. She left work yesterday because she was depressed and sobbing, and called me and spent 1/2 hour crying, begging forgiveness, complaining about some kind of arguement she had with the woman at the drycleaners, and worrying about us, our kids and the world situation. Full moon? I understand it does something to some people. 
She came home , we cuddled, then talked , then f**ked, and now she is singing showtunes in the shower. So, it will pass.


----------



## daisygirl 41

E1 Hope you are ok
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

B1 said:


> Thanks all for the kind words and support, thanks to those who have contacted EI....
> she's still crying, really feeling bad about herself. Doesn't feel worthy etc. I think she's letting out a ton of pain right now. Which in the long run can be a good thing. I am holding her on and off as she needs, letting her know she is loved and is a good person, which she is.
> 
> It's tough to see her so down, so down on herself. Hopefully it will pass and not settle in. EI is a truly amazing woman I am honored to be her husband.


EI, if you just heard a little sound or thought you saw something out of the corner of your eye, that was my heart getting there after i sent it out to you 

i hope that you are feeling better this morning and that you are channeling all the support that is coming your way from this thread. everyone has already said this so beautifully (as have you yourself): we all wish that we could have avoided the devastation that brought us to TAM, but some powerful learning and growth can be waiting at the end of it for people like *you*. 

you stood up and said no, i'm not going to lie down in this or be defined by this. i'm going to stand up and face it relentlessly and grow from it.

and along the way, you have steadfastly offered support and a window into your struggle to others.

until we have perfect humans down here on earth, i don't think it gets any better than that. 

i am not writing this to be cheery or to imply that you should not feel pain at the memory of your actions. i think that your pain is legitimate and i honor it. it's part of your tapestry now. 

i'm just agreeing with others that from a test of fire, from an honest and remorseful confrontation with our own failures, from an authentic experience with our own humanity comes that wisdom, strength, and compassion that you already inspire us with. i can only imagine how much B1, your family, and your friends all treasure this in you


----------



## calvin

Hope you both are feeling better today.
Said an extra long prayer for you both last night.
Take care guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

ohh it has been that full moon!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

EI, I'll second Margrace, who express it so well.
You are so strong, but even the strongest persons face challenges from from to time. I'm positive though, that you have the strength to get through this one as well no matter what it is you struggle with.
Take care.


----------



## bfree

EI,

Even though I am not going through R I want you to know that when I am feeling melancholy your posts cheer me up so much. You are special and important and your value to me and to others cannot be calculated. You and B1 are an inspiration to everyone and everyone whose lives you touch is better for it.


----------



## CantSitStill

EI is a rarity..what I mean is, you guys have no idea how caring and helpful she is with others. She helps people and does not boast about it. She doesn't care what time it is, it could be the middle of the night and she would stay up to talk. As far as things we regret..well I always say, it's never too late to change and I see alot of change in alot of WS' and even BS' here..today is what's important. Yesterday is done and over. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

You guys are trying really hard to help EI feel better.

But now she's gonna be really mad at all of you for not letting her get post #5,000.

It wasn't me this time EI!!!! 

Seriously, I hope you are doing better today. It's funny how sometimes this stuff just jumps out at you when you least expect it. I've had a great day before...all smiles and happy. Then something touches me just a little bit off and I get really down.

The sun is up in the sky, even when it's cloudy.


----------



## calvin

Uh oh,who got post 5000?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> Uh oh,who got post 5000?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:scratchhead:


----------



## StarGazer101

SomedayDig said:


> :scratchhead:


:scratchhead:  
------------------------------------

Just wanted to say

EI I can't better margrace's beautiful words - I hope today is brighter for you. ~hug~


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> You guys are trying really hard to help EI feel better.
> 
> But now she's gonna be really mad at all of you for not letting her get post #5,000.
> 
> It wasn't me this time EI!!!!
> 
> Seriously, I hope you are doing better today. It's funny how sometimes this stuff just jumps out at you when you least expect it. I've had a great day before...all smiles and happy. Then something touches me just a little bit off and I get really down.
> 
> The sun is up in the sky, even when it's cloudy.


I don't know what you're talking about, Dig??? :scratchhead:


----------



## CantSitStill

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Maybe I'll go back and delete an old POST so EI drops back to 4999.:smthumbup:


----------



## CantSitStill

ok lets start deleting LOL give her another chance
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Okay, so full moon, that time of the month, the onset of Peri-menopause (TMI,) or just a cold hard look at reality??? I don't know.... maybe a combination of those things.... maybe something else, entirely.  I lost it yesterday, I really lost it. I woke up in a pretty decent mood (after a stressful weekend,) but as the day progressed I became a crying mess. I think the crying, actually, began in the grocery store parking lot as I was pushing the grocery cart to the car. If y'all could see the size of my filled cart, you'd probably understand why. It's heavy.  LOL So, anyway, the crying just wouldn't stop. It went on all evening and into the night and into my dreams. 

I went back to sleep after B1 went to work and woke up when I got a phone call from a dear TAM friend. I have pm's that I haven't responded to, yet, and just got on here to catch up. What can I say? "Thank you," for all of these kinds words, just doesn't seem like enough. Since I already talk/type too much, anyway, I'm simply going to say thanks to all of you in this one post. It's humbling to read all of this. 

This is actually part of it for me. Part of the crying. I read story after story of hurting people. When I read stories about the pain and anguish of the BS's on TAM, my heart aches for them. And, I know that I am not the only former WS who feels that way. I have talked to many of the WS's, here, on TAM and I know that many of us feel the same way. I know that the BS's all offer their support to the other BS's in a way that only someone who has walked in their shoes can. I know that for a WS to say that they hurt, too, can be seen as an affront to the BS's here. But, the truth is, WS's do hurt, too. We hurt for a variety of reasons. There is never a justification for an affair. There is never a valid excuse. But, there are reasons.... and, sometimes, the reason is because we were hurting and we were trying to find something to make the pain go away. But, at some point, the weight of our transgressions comes crashing down on us, what we did to our spouses, our children, and finally, ourselves comes crashing down on on us. Now, we feel our pain, your pain, our children's pain...... and sometimes, it feels like the weight of the universe is sitting squarely on our shoulders.

I don't think it occurred to me until I read it in someone's post what it was that triggered my feelings yesterday. But, I think I've figured it out. There are so many BS's on TAM who let all of their hurts pour out on the keyboard. In the cases where both spouses are posting, we have an open window into their lives. We follow these "stories" in real time. We're share their happiness, their heartaches, their ups and their downs. We get invested in their outcomes. And, it hurts......... These people become our "virtual" friends. 

I've talked to several of you. I know that some of us talk to our spouses and compare our marriages, our infidelities, and our reconciliation efforts with those of others. We're all looking for something so that we can believe that WE have a reason to be hopeful for our own marriages.

I feel so guilty. I know why I did what I did. I know how I did it. I know how I justified it, in my mind, at the time. I know the horrible state of my marriage, at the time, and the defeated and hopeless state of mind that I was in. I know that B1 knows all of those things, too. He and I have spent countless hours analyzing our relationship back to when we were teenagers before we ever even got married. None of those reasons take away from how wrong it was.... I know that now. At the time, I was either unwilling or unable, or I just didn't care enough anymore to think about how wrong it was. I was thinking about me and what I wanted and what I thought I needed.

B1 has been my rock since D-Day. I just don't know how he does it. I don't understand. How can he bear the unbearable? Should he bear it? There are plenty on TAM who say they would NEVER reconcile with a cheating spouse and I read their posts and I can't help but wonder if they're right. B1 is so good to me and I don't know why. I feel like he is a better man, now..... the best possible version of himself. But, I'm not better than I was before my infidelity. I became the worst version of myself. I don't understand. I'm afraid that he won't heal. He says that he is healing. Is that true? Is it possible? Doesn't he deserve a future with someone who didn't crush his heart? 

Enough, my brain is going to explode. All I can do is try to be the best wife, mom, and friend that I can be from this day forward. But, I live in fear that some day the rug will be pulled out from under me........ and, why shouldn't it be? B1 is nothing short of amazing. He held me in his arms and rocked me like a baby last night. He let me cry, he made me laugh a few times (while I was crying.....) by pretending that he thought women get turned on when men bend over to pick up something the same way men get turned on when women bend over to pick up something. Seeing B1 in his jammies bending over............ :rofl:

All typed out................ Thanks, all of you...... You guys, along with B1's love and devotion are healing me. I just hope that B1 can heal, too!

Take care,
~EI


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> ok lets start deleting LOL give her another chance
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't you delete one thing! LOL


----------



## Acabado

EI said:


> He let me cry, he made me laugh a few times (while I was crying.....) by pretending that he thought women get turned on when men bend over to pick up something the same way men get turned on when women bend over to pick up something. Seeing B1 in his jammies bending over............ :rofl:


So... they don't actually? 

Hang tough friend.


ETA
Believe him. Really.


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> I don't know what you're talking about, Dig??? :scratchhead:


Yes!!!!!! :lol::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Tony55

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



ChangingMe said:


> The more time that goes by, the more often I ask that question of myself.
> 
> 
> 
> "how the fvck could you do this to me"
> 
> 
> 
> *I can't believe I became that person, that I am still technically the same person that betrayed and damaged the person I love the most, even though I barely recognize her*.
Click to expand...

As I warned somewhere in DD's thread, as the Zoloft begins to wear off (in your case, the lowered dose), the recollection of you're own behavior becomes more and more startling and hard to identify with, as if it wasn't you, the real you.

T


----------



## CantSitStill

Ok so just gonna give some good news ..I have a job interview tomorrow 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> Ok so just gonna give some good news ..I have a job interview tomorrow
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


congratulations!!! that is great news


----------



## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> Ok so just gonna give some good news ..I have a job interview tomorrow
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good luck x
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Anyone heard from bobka?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Ok so just gonna give some good news ..I have a job interview tomorrow
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's great news...glad to hear it. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> Ok so just gonna give some good news ..I have a job interview tomorrow
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good Luck tomorrow CSS.


----------



## calvin

I'm sure she'll do fine and this is a stepping stone to something better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

thanks, it makes me feel good. I mean it's not a big job but it's ok and if anything it's good practice on getting interviews, the more I do the more I get used to it and get better at it. If I do get it, I won't get many hours but it's something 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

I'm hiring in April. Hell of a commute for you though. LOL


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> I'm hiring in April. Hell of a commute for you though. LOL


She'll drive it.....or else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

EI said:


> Okay, so full moon, that time of the month, the onset of Peri-menopause (TMI,) or just a cold hard look at reality??? I don't know.... maybe a combination of those things.... maybe something else, entirely.  I lost it yesterday, I really lost it. I woke up in a pretty decent mood (after a stressful weekend,) but as the day progressed I became a crying mess. I think the crying, actually, began in the grocery store parking lot as I was pushing the grocery cart to the car. If y'all could see the size of my filled cart, you'd probably understand why. It's heavy.  LOL So, anyway, the crying just wouldn't stop. It went on all evening and into the night and into my dreams.
> 
> I went back to sleep after B1 went to work and woke up when I got a phone call from a dear TAM friend. I have pm's that I haven't responded to, yet, and just got on here to catch up. What can I say? "Thank you," for all of these kinds words, just doesn't seem like enough. Since I already talk/type too much, anyway, I'm simply going to say thanks to all of you in this one post. It's humbling to read all of this.
> 
> This is actually part of it for me. Part of the crying. I read story after story of hurting people. When I read stories about the pain and anguish of the BS's on TAM, my heart aches for them. And, I know that I am not the only former WS who feels that way. I have talked to many of the WS's, here, on TAM and I know that many of us feel the same way. I know that the BS's all offer their support to the other BS's in a way that only someone who has walked in their shoes can. I know that for a WS to say that they hurt, too, can be seen as an affront to the BS's here. But, the truth is, WS's do hurt, too. We hurt for a variety of reasons. There is never a justification for an affair. There is never a valid excuse. But, there are reasons.... and, sometimes, the reason is because we were hurting and we were trying to find something to make the pain go away. But, at some point, the weight of our transgressions comes crashing down on us, what we did to our spouses, our children, and finally, ourselves comes crashing down on on us. Now, we feel our pain, your pain, our children's pain...... and sometimes, it feels like the weight of the universe is sitting squarely on our shoulders.
> 
> I don't think it occurred to me until I read it in someone's post what it was that triggered my feelings yesterday. But, I think I've figured it out. There are so many BS's on TAM who let all of their hurts pour out on the keyboard. In the cases where both spouses are posting, we have an open window into their lives. We follow these "stories" in real time. We're share their happiness, their heartaches, their ups and their downs. We get invested in their outcomes. And, it hurts......... These people become our "virtual" friends.
> 
> I've talked to several of you. I know that some of us talk to our spouses and compare our marriages, our infidelities, and our reconciliation efforts with those of others. We're all looking for something so that we can believe that WE have a reason to be hopeful for our own marriages.
> 
> I feel so guilty. I know why I did what I did. I know how I did it. I know how I justified it, in my mind, at the time. I know the horrible state of my marriage, at the time, and the defeated and hopeless state of mind that I was in. I know that B1 knows all of those things, too. He and I have spent countless hours analyzing our relationship back to when we were teenagers before we ever even got married. None of those reasons take away from how wrong it was.... I know that now. At the time, I was either unwilling or unable, or I just didn't care enough anymore to think about how wrong it was. I was thinking about me and what I wanted and what I thought I needed.
> 
> B1 has been my rock since D-Day. I just don't know how he does it. I don't understand. How can he bear the unbearable? Should he bear it? There are plenty on TAM who say they would NEVER reconcile with a cheating spouse and I read their posts and I can't help but wonder if they're right. B1 is so good to me and I don't know why. I feel like he is a better man, now..... the best possible version of himself. But, I'm not better than I was before my infidelity. I became the worst version of myself. I don't understand. I'm afraid that he won't heal. He says that he is healing. Is that true? Is it possible? Doesn't he deserve a future with someone who didn't crush his heart?
> 
> Enough, my brain is going to explode. All I can do is try to be the best wife, mom, and friend that I can be from this day forward. *But, I live in fear that some day the rug will be pulled out from under me*........ and, why shouldn't it be? B1 is nothing short of amazing. He held me in his arms and rocked me like a baby last night. He let me cry, he made me laugh a few times (while I was crying.....) by pretending that he thought women get turned on when men bend over to pick up something the same way men get turned on when women bend over to pick up something. Seeing B1 in his jammies bending over............ :rofl:
> 
> All typed out................ Thanks, all of you...... You guys, along with B1's love and devotion are healing me. I just hope that B1 can heal, too!
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


About pulling the rug out...That's a HUGE reason you have that new ring on your finger. It solidifies my commitment. It means I'm serious and that I am in love with you. It means that rug under you is super glued to the floor, it can't be pulled out sweetie. You have to get that in your head.
You have to be secure with my love, I am not going anywhere. 
My future is with you, only you. 

You may have crushed my heart, but I also crushed yours. We have both been hurt, ran through the ringer so to speak. Yet, here we are still together, still standing. It's by choice we are still here, after all this hurt we still chose each other. We didn't have to do this, we could have let go, but we didn't.
I feel we have come full circle, gone through some huge trial and beat it. We are husband and wife, one flesh, and don't you ever forget or doubt that. 

Love you EI!


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> thanks, it makes me feel good. I mean it's not a big job but it's ok and if anything it's good practice on getting interviews, the more I do the more I get used to it and get better at it. If I do get it, I won't get many hours but it's something
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your so right, even if it doesn't work out you are getting interview experience, this is important too, it helps build confidence.


----------



## bfree

B1 said:


> About pulling the rug out...That's a HUGE reason you have that new ring on your finger. It solidifies my commitment. It means I'm serious and that I am in love with you. It means that rug under you is super glued to the floor, it can't be pulled out sweetie. You have to get that in your head.
> You have to be secure with my love, I am not going anywhere.
> My future is with you, only you.
> 
> You may have crushed my heart, but I also crushed yours. We have both been hurt, ran through the ringer so to speak. Yet, here we are still together, still standing. It's by choice we are still here, after all this hurt we still chose each other. We didn't have to do this, we could have let go, but we didn't.
> I feel we have come full circle, gone through some huge trial and beat it. We are husband and wife, one flesh, and don't you ever forget or doubt that.
> 
> Love you EI!


:iagree:


like like like like like like like like like like like like


----------



## EI

EI said:


> He let me cry, he made me laugh a few times (while I was crying.....) by pretending that he thought women get turned on when men bend over to pick up something the same way men get turned on when women bend over to pick up something. Seeing B1 in his jammies bending over............ :rofl:





Acabado said:


> So... they don't actually?


I'm so sorry, Acabado.........


----------



## calvin

Do you have a pic of his butt when he was bent over EI?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I know that feeling EI of when they make that promise..inside our heads we are afraid to believe they won't change their mind..so we just feel panicky even more..it's like.."ok I'm afraid to just let go and trust that he will stick by my side" It's a crazy thing to describe but I do remember talking about that with Morrigan and she felt the same way..her and beo were always my hope that it is possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Ok so just gonna give some good news ..I have a job interview tomorrow
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, I'm very excited for you. I'll be crossing all my fingers and all my toes and I'll say an extra prayer for you on top of the one I already say! 

What time is your interview?

xoxoxo


----------



## CantSitStill

2pm central time  so funny how we came home from counselling with him talking about me getting a job and I got excited when the counselor suggested checking into temp sevices..so we get home and 10 min later the phone rang about that job 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

B1 said:


> About pulling the rug out...That's a HUGE reason you have that new ring on your finger. It solidifies my commitment. It means I'm serious and that I am in love with you. It means that rug under you is super glued to the floor, it can't be pulled out sweetie. You have to get that in your head.
> You have to be secure with my love, I am not going anywhere.
> My future is with you, only you.
> 
> You may have crushed my heart, but I also crushed yours. We have both been hurt, ran through the ringer so to speak. Yet, here we are still together, still standing. It's by choice we are still here, after all this hurt we still chose each other. We didn't have to do this, we could have let go, but we didn't.
> I feel we have come full circle, gone through some huge trial and beat it. We are husband and wife, one flesh, and don't you ever forget or doubt that.
> 
> Love you EI!


B1 my friend, you have both come so far. Puts a smile on my face reading this.


----------



## margrace

B1 said:


> About pulling the rug out...That's a HUGE reason you have that new ring on your finger. It solidifies my commitment. It means I'm serious and that I am in love with you. It means that rug under you is super glued to the floor, it can't be pulled out sweetie. You have to get that in your head.
> You have to be secure with my love, I am not going anywhere.
> My future is with you, only you.
> 
> You may have crushed my heart, but I also crushed yours. We have both been hurt, ran through the ringer so to speak. Yet, here we are still together, still standing. It's by choice we are still here, after all this hurt we still chose each other. We didn't have to do this, we could have let go, but we didn't.
> I feel we have come full circle, gone through some huge trial and beat it. We are husband and wife, one flesh, and don't you ever forget or doubt that.
> 
> Love you EI!


oh my, B1... you two are BOTH just extraordinary, beyond anything i can think of to say  thank you for being you!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

I know, he has given her that ring with the promise to renew their vows and it hit EI's heart so much that she got overwhelmed I bet with the love he has been giving her..btw EI YES YOU DO DESERVE IT so just accept it. It's ok..it really is. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

ok let me explain..you have done alot of heavy lifting, you really and truly are sorry and we all know you won't do it again...some people learn from their wrongs and some don't..You have learned so accept his forgiveness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> ok let me explain..you have done alot of heavy lifting, you really and truly are sorry and we all know you won't do it again...some people learn from their wrongs and some don't..You have learned so accept his forgiveness.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, you are so precious. Never forget, you were my first TAM mentor. You came here and took it on the chin. You keep listening, learning, growing and evolving. You have shown so much remorse, regret and humility and, at times, I am in awe of your courage and conviction. Your renewed commitment to Calvin is unwavering. I value your opinion greatly. Thank you for believing in me.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By E1
> This is actually part of it for me. Part of the crying. I read story after story of hurting people. When I read stories about the pain and anguish of the BS's on TAM, my heart aches for them.
> 
> There are so many BS's on TAM who let all of their hurts pour out on the keyboard. In the cases where both spouses are posting, we have an open window into their lives. We follow these "stories" in real time. We're share their happiness, their heartaches, their ups and their downs. We get invested in their outcomes. And, it hurts.
> 
> There are plenty on TAM who say they would NEVER reconcile with a cheating spouse and I read their posts and I can't help but wonder if they're right.



*EI
As much as I look forward to reading your posts would it be best for you right now to back off the TAM board a bit?*

It just maybe that with all the things you have going on this extra emotional load may overload you a bit.

I know you empathize with all of us, you want to help, and you do but your very first priority will be to keep yourself going forward. We will all be waiting for you if you take a break.

Another thought is that you just read the uplifting posts for a while.



> Quote of EI
> There are plenty on TAM who say they would NEVER reconcile with a cheating spouse and I read their posts and I can't help but wonder if they're right…….
> I'm afraid that he won't heal. He says that he is healing. Is that true? Is it possible?


*B1 is definitely healing and he is way ahead of the pace*. You EI are one of the reasons that he is healing. I think that you here a lot of BS talking about NEVER RECONCILE because you have mostly BS that are in the first or second year of being betrayed. Some have just weeks or months behind them. I started a thread a month or two ago and was asking for people that have 5 years or more in dealing with Infidelity. Several people responded but the total with 5 + years was three! *I do not think that anyone with a few weeks or months or even a year or two can make statements like “NEVER RECONCILE”* 

Keep yourself going forward and keep you and B1 as the very top priority. My guess is that many of us TAM people would feel like crap if our posts trigger you and you wind up going backwards.

If you think that it will help you take a break or change your TAM reads.

You will not be forgotten and we will be waiting here with open arms
Blunt


----------



## Rookie4

EI, CSS, CM, and MM and others. This is the price of infidelity. When you damage your respective marriages, by cheating, you also damage part of yourselves. I can't figure out why people don't realize that part of it? To me it seems obvious, but then again, I'm the BS, not the WS. An example is the trust issue . A great many WS are filled with doubt about their BS's commitment to them, and well they should be, but the truth is, that YOU instilled the mistrust into your marriages, and YOU NEED to be trusting , too. The leap of faith works both ways. Your spouse needs to KNOW, not think, KNOW that it will not happen again, and you need to trust your BS that he will not use your cheating as an excuse to have a RA, to treat you badly, or even to kick you to the curb. Sweetie is TERRIFIED that I will find another woman, she has nightmares about me leaving for good. I'm not going anywhere, nor am I looking for anyone else, but her self -esteem is shattered and she is insecure. This is a common problem and IDK what the answer is , except for BOTH the BS and WS to communicate every feeling, thought, and emotion until the two-way street of trust is rebuilt. Like any other form of construction, the harder and smarter you work, the better that street will be.


----------



## B1

Morning all.
EI was in a better place yesterday, still sulking some. You know, there was a time when I wanted to see those tears, to see her hurt and sob over what she did. But now, now ALL I want is a happy, healthy wife. I want her secure in my love, our love, secure in my commitment to her.

I want to see her smile and laugh. I want her to look in the mirror and smile at herself and think, yep, you ARE a good person. I think all the WS here, in order to truly move forward, need to look in the mirror and say those words..YOU are a good person!

oh and..Rookie, 
Your last post is spot on.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> EI, CSS, CM, and MM and others. This is the price of infidelity. When you damage your respective marriages, by cheating, you also damage part of yourselves. I can't figure out why people don't realize that part of it? To me it seems obvious, but then again, I'm the BS, not the WS. An example is the trust issue . A great many WS are filled with doubt about their BS's commitment to them, and well they should be, but the truth is, that YOU instilled the mistrust into your marriages, and YOU NEED to be trusting , too. The leap of faith works both ways. Your spouse needs to KNOW, not think, KNOW that it will not happen again, and you need to trust your BS that he will not use your cheating as an excuse to have a RA, to treat you badly, or even to kick you to the curb. Sweetie is TERRIFIED that I will find another woman, she has nightmares about me leaving for good. I'm not going anywhere, nor am I looking for anyone else, but her self -esteem is shattered and she is insecure. This is a common problem and IDK what the answer is , except for BOTH the BS and WS to communicate every feeling, thought, and emotion until the two-way street of trust is rebuilt. Like any other form of construction, the harder and smarter you work, the better that street will be.


Rookie, the answer is love and time. There is no magic pill or enlightening book written by some wise sage. Love and time.


----------



## bfree

B1 said:


> Morning all.
> EI was in a better place yesterday, still sulking some. You know, there was a time when I wanted to see those tears, to see her hurt and sob over what she did. But now, now ALL I want is a happy, healthy wife. I want her secure in my love, our love, secure in my commitment to her.
> 
> I want to see her smile and laugh. I want her to look in the mirror and smile at herself and think, yep, you ARE a good person. I think all the WS here, in order to truly move forward, need to look in the mirror and say those words..YOU are a good person!
> 
> oh and..Rookie,
> Your last post is spot on.


Part of forgiveness is learning to forgive yourself.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Part of forgiveness is learning to forgive yourself.


That's going to be the hardest part. I really don't know how. It isn't that I don't want to. I am quick to forgive people who have hurt me when they apologize and are genuinely sorry. I have even had to "learn" how to forgive those in my life who have hurt me, weren't sorry, and who I knew would, repeatedly, hurt me and my family, again, if I allowed them to get close enough to us. Let me explain. I have a brother (not the one who passed away.) He is bi-polar and he is the biological father of our two oldest children..... Don't get all excited...... this isn't another TAM revelation. As most of you know, B1 and I adopted our daughter and our special needs son. Before they were our children, they were our "niece" and "nephew"..... but even saying those words feels awkward. When we adopted them, when changed our wills, changed their last name and never looked back. They had already been living with us for several years by the time the adoption was completed. They could not be more our own if I had given birth to them.... and I know this, because I did give birth.... 3 times. Back to my brother..... he's mentally ill, his ex-wife is simply evil. To list details of all that my brother (and his ex) has subjected our immediate and extended family to over the years would be the most epic EI post, ever!  I spent years loathing and despising him..... desiring all sorts of vengeful retribution to be heaped upon him. It consumed me for a long time. I got tired of being anxious and angry all of the time. I realized that by despising him so much that I had given him entirely too much control of my life and it was sucking the joy out of my existence. 

Though none of my wishing for him to suffer had any bearing on his current state of misery,........ he earned all of that on his own, he definitely is a very miserable and lonely man. At 54, he is twice divorced, has spent years in and out of prison, his children (there are others) either hate him or barely tolerate him. His health is poor, he has no money, no home, no friends, and none of the extended family have had anything to do with him for years. Rather than hate him or wish misery on him, now, I just feel sorry for him. He has certainly reaped what he has sown. Although, I can only take him in _very_ small doses, I talk to him every once in a while.... maybe once every few years. I did just talk to him a few weeks ago while Jo-Jo was in the hospital. He doesn't have my phone number, but he was easily able to reach me at the hospital. Because of the "joys" of Facebook, he found out about Jo-Jo's surgery and wanted to visit. He doesn't have any legal "rights" and I don't have to allow it, but I didn't mind if it was okay with Jo-Jo. 

In the few conversations that it took to try to figure out what would be a "good time" for us/him, my brother couldn't behave himself and lost his temper. He said something to the effect of _always having to do things "my way." _ I neither ask for or want or receive ANYTHING from him (if he fell off of the planet, my life wouldn't change in any way )...... so there is simply NO truth to that. The only "my way" in the conversation was me telling him when would be a good time to visit based on Jo-Jo's needs and recovery at the hospital. The conversation ended with me hanging up on him. But, I'm fine with it. I forgave him a long time ago. Not because he was sorry, not because he wouldn't screw me over again if I gave him the opportunity (which I have not for years and never will, again,) not for any reason other than to accept that he is who he is. I did it for myself. I no longer "hate" him. I don't wish him harm. I wish him nothing but the very best and I genuinely mean that. Although, I doubt that it will ever happen, I would be ecstatic for him to turn his life around and to find true joy and happiness and to be able to make amends to and peace with those whom he has harmed. Because I truly forgave him, it released me from the "hold," from all of the guilt that I carried, for despising him so much. He could no longer manipulate me, make me feel guilty, he no longer had any control over me at all. I had forgiven him..... all debts were released, I expected nothing from him and I owed nothing to him. After years of prayer, Sunday School and therapy..... I finally mastered the art of true forgiveness. It doesn't mean that you didn't harm me, it doesn't mean that I am "okay" with what you did, it doesn't even mean that you're sorry.... (though that would be nice.) It just means, I release you from your debt to me. It's forgiven. Just like a bad loan. WOW, that gave me more peace than I ever imagined.... it felt great. That was years ago. I was no longer angry and I no longer felt guilty. Since that time I have been free to have (or not to have) a relationship with him. For my sanity and well-being, I choose to keep him at arm's length. Guilt plays no part in any decisions that I make with regard to him.

Now, forgiving someone (else) who is sorry is a piece o' cake!  Forgiving someone like my brother, an unrepentant, repeat offender, was a much longer journey. :smthumbup: Forgiving myself.... I have no idea of where or how to begin??? :scratchhead: It isn't that I don't want to.... I just don't know HOW to make it happen.  It's more than saying the words. I'm working on it though. If B1 chooses to forgive me, I feel like I owe it to him to figure out how to forgive myself so that I can offer my best self to him! It's on my "To Do List." I'll get it done.... I always do! 

*UH-OH, this post was epic, anyway,..............OOPS!    *

Y'all realize I do this for myself..... It's like having an interactive journal. But, if no one reads it, that's okay, too.... I feel better just having gotten it out there!


----------



## CantSitStill

I like to blog things out just to do it also. I guess it's like talking to yourself lol but I am sure someone out there can relate right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

btw I am also not able to forgive myself..it's like I want to punish myself for my wrong but God forgives us so freely that no I won't hurt myself but I will live as a better person. I feel I should have the burden instead of calvin but what can I do? k time to clean house so I can get ready for my interview. I'm not even nervous because I could care less whether I get it. Not going to turn it down tho and yes I will be my best me during the interview. Wish it was nice out blaaa..I'm rambling..outa here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
(Matt 5:46 )

Forgiving the unrepentant is much harder. And forgiving yourself, especially if you cannot right the wrongs you've done? 

And yet, if you can, it will be to your good.


----------



## Rookie4

After my fiasco with my toes, Sweetie was really, and I mean really down on herself. She asked me how I could love a sl*t, a wh*re, and how disgusted and ashamed she was with herself. I limped my a** into the shop and brought out a tire billy, and told her to use it to hit herself in the cabeza, every time she felt that way. She bawled and felt better. Sometimes a good cry works wonders. I told her that I love her as she is now, and the past was over and she purred like a kitten, and I ended up getting my Muse stimulated (see DD's thread) almost non-stop for about three days. I will remember to do that again the next time she gets down on herself, only I'll have plenty of energy drinks, vitamins, and gatorade on hand.


----------



## CantSitStill

you're funny lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> you're funny lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, interview details??? Spill...... How did it go?


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh it went real good I think..I have to say tho, that was the first time anyone younger than me ever interviewed me lol..I think she's like 20..but anyway she will let me know on Friday and also I mentioned that I was interested in working in the childcare dept. soo she's gonna talk to the lady in charge of that. I believe I did a good job bragging on my people skills 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

So glad the interview went well, CSS! That's great!


----------



## CantSitStill

thanks, as I said..not sure if it's for me, kinda leavin it in God's hands but they may be calling me for the daycare or preschool because the girl that interviewed me said she would talk to the head of that dept a few times..makes me think she may not want me at the front desk, but whatever maybe she will. If so I'll get another part time job during the week since this desk job is only weekends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Yay! Congrats on a good interview, CSS. And while I'm catching up, happy belated birthday, Dig, glad you're feeling better EI, and hope you're loving the new office CM!


----------



## CantSitStill

thanks Mrs. Mathas  btw Calvins birthday is Feb 29th sooo we can celebrate from now till March..poor guy has no birthday this year : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

I'm staying on this thread from now on. It's safer!
Do I really need to justify my reasons for R to a new poster? I think not!
Do I really have to react to people who think I'm codependent, insecure, have low self esteem or some other deep seated psychological problem? I think not!

I nearly unleashed hell and got myself :banned2:
Sorry for the rant, need some herbal tea and a lie down now


----------



## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm staying on this thread from now on. It's safer!
> Do I really need to justify my reasons for R to a new poster? I think not!
> Do I really have to react to people who think I'm codependent, insecure, have low self esteem or some other deep seated psychological problem? I think not!
> 
> I nearly unleashed hell and got myself :banned2:
> Sorry for the rant, need some herbal tea and a lie down now


I have had that experience myself from time to time, when I do, I take some time off TAM (like in read-only mode).

No, you don't need to justify anything to anybody but yourself. Cheer up


----------



## Rags

daisygirl 41 said:


> Sorry for the rant, need some herbal tea and a lie down now


No need to apologise - and herbal tea is generally a help (I favour peppermint, no sugar - wife always has to have sugar, no matter what she's drinking ...)

And the lie down? Go for it. Wish I could have one. 
(Having one with my wife, who's just brought me a herbal tea ... and maybe chocolate .... and bacon ... *dream*)


----------



## daisygirl 41

I just read the OP of the person in question and she's hurting too, but totally projected her hurt onto my situation. So she's forgiven
:biggrinangelA:. If she needs support, she knows where we are!

Did somebody mention chocolate!!! :smthumbup:


----------



## B1

Sorry you had a rough time out there DG, just let it go and move on, your doing fine.


----------



## CantSitStill

Yep gotta stay in the safty zone, it's rough out there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

I still have the last remnants of my Valentine's day chocolates ... (yes, we too consider it a commercialised excuse to charge for non-spontaneous tokens - meh - not worth the risk of ignoring it...)

I wonder ... chocolate-coated bacon ... ?

Btw, I went and read the thread - and yes, they were harsh.
Don't let them get to you.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thanks all.
It's a big bad world out there : - )

I'd indulge in the chocolate covered bacon Rags, but I'm a veggie!! So it's just the chocolate for me thanks.
: - )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> I just read the OP of the person in question and she's hurting too, but totally projected her hurt onto my situation. So she's forgiven
> :biggrinangelA:. If she needs support, she knows where we are!
> 
> Did somebody mention chocolate!!! :smthumbup:


I read your post as soon as I got out of bed this morning and immediately went on a chocolate, strawberry and peanut butter eating binge. The odd thing about that is that I am not into sweets.... I much prefer salty things..... I've never been the typical woman who craves chocolate, I crave tortilla chips and salsa. To top it all off..... I NEVER EAT BREAKFAST.... I never eat in the mornings, at all. I usually don't eat anything until very late in the afternoon. I don't know what the heck has gotten into me!  :scratchhead:

I hope I didn't overstep on your thread last night. I was working on that (unintended) epic sized post when B1 walked in the door from work. I told him that I'd be finished in a few minutes. He said that I had a very serious look on my face. By the time I'd finished, he had already finished eating dinner and had fallen asleep on the couch. 

I get a little worked up, I don't even, necessarily, disagree with everything that the poster, whom I had an exchange with, said. Particularly, about him not being fond of WS's, not even remorseful ones (as he put it.) I understand that type of thinking. I, actually, used to be one of those kinds of thinkers. I openly detested celebrities, athletes, musicians, politicians, evangelists (especially them,) any high profile people who espoused certain values, when stories of their infidelities would make breaking news. 

When it began happening within our own circle of friends, several years ago, I was the most judgmental critic of all. And, I was sincere. It wasn't a cover. I hated infidelity and I was disgusted by those who gave into it. But, having become one of those whom I detested so much, what more can a former WS do than strive to learn from our mistakes, our failures and our weaknesses, make amends to those whom we've hurt, and perhaps help others in any small way that we possibly can? I'm trying to better understand the nature and the mindset of the WS (myself.) And, I hope that, in doing so, I might be able to help shed some light for a BS, as to what their WS was thinking and feeling, at the time. 

If it is true that there are certain "scripts" and similarities in all of these situations, then by sharing my insight into my own "foggy" thinking, then perhaps it could help provide you with some understanding of your WS's thoughts, at the time, as well. I'm trying my best. I hope that I never come off sounding like I feel "Holier than thou" as that poster suggested. That could not be further from the truth. I have never felt less Holy in my entire life.


----------



## daisygirl 41

E1:
You never overstep the mark.
Your post are heart felt and inspiring.
You posted just what I needed to hear and I thank you for taking the time out to write it.
BFs post didn't sting too much it was the other poster who claimed I was co dependent and in some way psychologically flawed that did it for me.
I've come a hell of a long way in the last 2 years since this whole nightmare began and it just makes you feel insulted when attacked like that. Anyway after looking at her thread I could see that she has also been hurt and is still hurting, so no hard feelings.

H and I are actually doing really well at the moment. So I'm not going to dwell on the negative connotations of this weekends date, but celebrate Hs birthday with the kids and be thankful we have come this far in a marriage we both still choose to be with and with a love and understanding of each other that is deeper and respectful than it has been for a long time.

Chocolate and Strawberries all round I think!
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

_Hey Reconcilers, everyone should jump over to CSS and Calvin's thread in the private section and wish Calvin a Happy Birthday!!!_


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> _Hey Reconcilers, everyone should jump over to CSS and Calvin's thread in the private section and wish Calvin a Happy Birthday!!!_


I hate you.
In a good way...no I dont
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

hahaha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I hate you.
> In a good way...no I dont
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*No you don't...... Said in my best singy-songy voice!!! *.


----------



## EI

AffairCare mentioned this test in another thread. I took it...... Explains a lot!!!! Who else will take it and share their results! I am an "ESFP."

Myers Briggs Test | MBTI Personality Types


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I took it as well. I'm ENFP. It's pretty spot on, especially given my career and personal interactions and patterns.


----------



## CantSitStill

tried to click on that with my little phone and I never use my computer because I hate it but anyway can't get to it on my 3G phone which I love. I love my little keyboard on here. I love not waiting 20 min for everything I click on..can't wait to get our computer fixed or replaced. Stupid viruses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I feel really good today btw..why? Because having an interview sorta makes me feel good. I have another job opportunity but it's cleaning a bar up twice a week from 8-11 am. Kinda weird but my sister is friends with the owners and I'm supposed to get a call from her. If I don't hear anything soon I will call her. This is so outa my normal type of job BUT it's something 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Cal is on his way home...gonna make him nice and relaxed and feeling good later 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

umm btw..what's wrong with me? I always write 3 posts in a row. lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Cal is on his way home...gonna make him nice and relaxed and feeling good later
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really admire your enthusiasm. When you're on...... You're on!


----------



## CantSitStill

I have a feeling we are both alot alike..we both talk too much hehehe..I mean we are outgoing and when we are feeling good we love to talk yet when we are feeling bad we avoid talking to anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I took it as well. I'm ENFP. It's pretty spot on, especially given my career and personal interactions and patterns.


This is all so fascinating to me! I would love for "couples" to take this test and then follow up with their predicted compatibility based on the results. 

I don't know for sure what B1 would be.... But, according to the test, I am most compatible with an "ITSJ" and I can see a lot of B1 in that. 

I would say that my results were about 85% accurate, overall. Some were 100% me, while others I didn't' quite agree with. Again, I would love for you guys to take this test.... and ask your spouse take it, as well. 

I'm curious to see if there are any identifiable patterns or similarities with couples and their compatibility. I am not looking for any excuses for my actions, but I am interested in anything that might give me some more insight.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

EI said:


> This is all so fascinating to me! I would love for "couples" to take this test and then follow up with their predicted compatibility based on the results.
> 
> I don't know for sure what B1 would be.... But, according to the test, I am most compatible with an "ITSJ" and I can see a lot of B1 in that.
> 
> I would say that my results were about 85% accurate, overall. Some were 100% me, while others I didn't' quite agree with. Again, I would love for you guys to take this test.... and ask your spouse take it, as well.
> 
> I'm curious to see if there are any identifiable patterns or similarities with couples and their compatibility. I am not looking for any excuses for my actions, but I am interested in anything that might give me some more insight.



Where did you find where it tells you who you are most compatible with?


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I have a feeling we are both alot alike..we both talk too much hehehe..I mean we are outgoing and when we are feeling good we love to talk yet when we are feeling bad we avoid talking to anyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interestingly enough, that is one of the characteristics of an "ESFP!" They are very warm, open, caring, and outgoing. . They're talkative, but they do have an extremely private side that they keep only to themselves or a very few close friends. This is 100% accurate for me. 

And, "ESFP's" do not take criticism or harsh judgements well.  Geeeez, I think those Myers Briggs people have been peeking in my windows! :scratchhead:

Finally, we "ESFP's" think we're funny! :smthumbup: That wasn't on there, but I added it because they "accidentally" left it off!  :

What makes you think I talk too much???   :scratchhead: . 

:rofl: 
LOL


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Where did you find where it tells you who you are most compatible with?



Google "ENFP" + compatibility. There are various links you can choose from.


----------



## CantSitStill

You totally just described me.. and I am funny in my own dorky way..people laugh at me but I love doing goofy things just to get a smile outa people...even if it means acting weird in the store with my daughter to embarrass her..I don't know why I get such a kick outa doin stuff like that lol it makes me laugh at myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

EI you don't talk too much! It only takes 20 min sometimes to read your posts..no big deal..lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Well, I'm ISTJ. The only part that doesn't really describe me is when it says I don't like surprises. In actuality I love and crave new experiences regardless what they are. I am an experience junkie.

_Introverted Sensing personality types are dependable, reliable and trustworthy. They like to belong to solid organisations that are reasonable in their ambitions and loyal to their employees. They feel useful when their roles and responsibilities are clearly established and they can monitor their activities and productivity in tangible ways. They tend to be rather modest, traditional and conventional, to like sensible clothing, to be thrifty, careful and wise with both money and possessions. 

Once they accept a project, they will see it to the end. They manage their time well and are realistic about how much time and resources will be needed.

They tend to like to stay in one neighbourhood, often choosing to live close to where they were themselves raised. They are often involved with volunteer organisations and have a developed sense of citizenship and accountability. When they purchase something, it is after careful consideration; rarely will they buy something without having a known need or use for it. They may keep possessions for a lifetime and treasure those that were given to them.

They tend to have a good memory for specific facts that are necessary in their day-to-day life at work and at home. They accumulate facts and details to orient themselves, relying on repeated experiences that have been proven trustworthy. A fact once experienced may be the product of circumstance and happenstance; it is not in and of itself reliable. When an introverted sensing type hears an idea, they rummage through reams of archived facts to find an experience that provides information for the relevance and realism of an idea. When an introverted sensing type utters, "It's never been done!" they are saying that no information about the relevance or usefulness of the idea is available to them. They tend to shy away from surprises and what is perceived as unnecessary change._


----------



## bfree

Mrs bfree is ISFP. This is her down to a T.

_Introverted Feeling personality types are usually gentle and kind, they are intense and passionate about their values and deeply held beliefs, which they share with trusted friends. Because of their discreet manner, their enthusiasm may not be apparent. They are sensitive to others' pain, restlessness or general discomfort and strive to find happiness, balance and wholeness for themselves in order to help others find joy, satisfaction and plenitude. They are deeply empathetic.

They live life in an intently personal fashion, acting on the belief that each person is unique and that social norms are to be respected only if they do not hinder personal development or expression. They strive to adhere to their own high personal moral standards and are particularly sensitive to inconsistencies in their environment between what is being said and what is being done. Empty promises of adhering to something they value – such as environmental causes or human rights - set off an inner alarm and they may transform themselves into modern day Joan of Arcs. 

They are quietly persistent in raising awareness of cherished causes and often fight for the underdog in quiet or not-so-quiet ways. In a team, they will raise issues of integrity, authenticity, and good or bad, and may to opt out if the team refuses to address the questions raised. 

They are usually tolerant and open-minded, insightful, flexible and understanding. They live for the understanding of others and feel deeply grateful when someone takes the time to get to know them personally. They have good listening skills, are genuinely concerned, insightful, and usually avid readers. At their best, they inspire others to be themselves._


----------



## CantSitStill

Gonna have to check this out..looks intereasting..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

EI gives Stephen King a run for his money.
Some of her post are longer than The Stand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> This is all so fascinating to me! I would love for "couples" to take this test and then follow up with their predicted compatibility based on the results.
> 
> I don't know for sure what B1 would be.... But, according to the test, I am most compatible with an "ITSJ" and I can see a lot of B1 in that.
> 
> I would say that my results were about 85% accurate, overall. Some were 100% me, while others I didn't' quite agree with. Again, I would love for you guys to take this test.... and ask your spouse take it, as well.
> 
> I'm curious to see if there are any identifiable patterns or similarities with couples and their compatibility. I am not looking for any excuses for my actions, but I am interested in anything that might give me some more insight.


Well according to what I have seen my wife and I should not be compatible in any way.

*snicker*

Shows what they know.


----------



## MrMathias

I'm INTP. 

Although I prefer to go with 'Pisces'


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin is a pisces and I am a libra
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrMathias

I'd be interested if there's a somewhat predictable correlation between personality types and 'Love Languages' and/or the ten or so 'emotional needs'.

That's an INTP thing to wonder I suspect.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Well, I'm ISTJ.


And, so is B1...........

This is considered my "most compatible" match......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

DrMathias said:


> I'd be interested if there's a somewhat predictable correlation between personality types and 'Love Languages' and/or the ten or so 'emotional needs'.
> 
> That's an INTP thing to wonder I suspect.


That question is above my pay grade...... LOL! But, I would be interested in the answer, as well. I would love for someone with the interest, time, patience and ability to take all of this data and see if there are any statistics or studies that have been done that indicate whether this has any actual bearing on the success of a marriage or LTR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrMathias

EI said:


> That question is above my pay grade...... LOL! But, I would be interested in the answer, as well.


According to what I just read about my type, I'm very happy to theorize about things like this and declare it important, but not very likely to implement the actual study 

So far, this Myer-Briggs stuff is right on.

Interesting stuff in this thread:
MyersBriggs/LoveLanguages


----------



## EI

DrMathias said:


> According to what I just read about my type, I'm very happy to theorize about things like this and declare it important, but not very likely to implement the actual study
> 
> So far, this Myer-Briggs stuff is right on.
> 
> Interesting stuff in this thread:
> MyersBriggs/LoveLanguages


Perhaps you could make exception in this case??? Using the link you provided means half of your work would already be done! LOL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm staying on this thread from now on. It's safer!
> Do I really need to justify my reasons for R to a new poster? I think not!
> Do I really have to react to people who think I'm codependent, insecure, have low self esteem or some other deep seated psychological problem? I think not!
> 
> I nearly unleashed hell and got myself :banned2:
> Sorry for the rant, need some herbal tea and a lie down now


Well I just got ripped apart for helping someone and it really hurt. I am so frustrated. It's that thread called "should I tell my wife about the fog" or something like that..so for trying to help I get crap from other idiots that don't know our story..GRRR
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

I saw that CSS.

A lot of people 
a) project
b) are hurting themselves

So it's understandable that they lash out (not right, but understandable.)

Have to be careful, and not take it personally. They're angry with someone else - but you're just a viable target because you're there.

Have some chocolate (the type with bacon inside seems particularly good ...)


----------



## EI

CSS, it happens to me, too. You just have to learn to shrug it off or it can ruin your whole day. I have often told people whom I felt were being needlessly rude on certain threads that their verbal assaults were a greater reflection of them than of the person whose character they were attempting to assassinate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hmmm........ Do we know ANYONE like this? :-/

ESFPs are attracted to new ideas, new fashions, and new gadgets, new…whatever! They love to talk to people about people. Some of the most colourful storytellers are ESFPs. Almost every ESFP loves to talk. Some can be identified by the twenty-minute conversation required to ask or answer a simple factual question. Don’t try to say to the ESFP ‘do you have five minutes?’ the ESFP doesn’t DO five minutes!

WOW..........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> Well I just got ripped apart for helping someone and it really hurt. I am so frustrated. It's that thread called "should I tell my wife about the fog" or something like that..so for trying to help I get crap from other idiots that don't know our story..GRRR
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't worry. I 'stopped by' in that thread.:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

Rags said:


> I saw that CSS.
> 
> A lot of people
> a) project
> b) are hurting themselves
> 
> So it's understandable that they lash out (not right, but understandable.)
> 
> Have to be careful, and not take it personally. They're angry with someone else - but you're just a viable target because you're there.
> 
> Have some chocolate (the type with bacon inside seems particularly good ...)


I want to try that chocolate with bacon!


----------



## CantSitStill

you guys are the best..true friends ty 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> you guys are the best..true friends ty
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We do our best with what we got!:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

Chocolate bacon will be available via Amazon UK, soon, I hope! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bacon-Choco...3?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1362104113&sr=1-3-catcorr


----------



## Rags

MattMatt said:


> Chocolate bacon will be available via Amazon UK, soon, I hope! Bacon Chocolate (Milk Chocolate): Amazon.co.uk: Grocery


I KNEW it was a good idea ... planning to make a batch on Saturday, when I have time to grill the bacon crispy properly ...


----------



## CantSitStill

I am a weirdo but I hate bacon..lol YUCK
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

MM, Rags, c'mon, get with the program and take that test! Then, post your results post haste...... We need to start analyzing people here..... 

This isn't for TAM "couples" only. This is for the greater good..... or something like that! 

Pretty please with :scratchhead: chocolate and.....  bacon on top! :smthumbup:


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> EI gives Stephen King a run for his money.
> Some of her post are longer than The Stand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*WHATEVER*


----------



## CantSitStill

lol I always said EI could write a good book..you have good writing skills and you write with such heart. I love your posts 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I understant how CSS feels when a poster like tot
goes off a little on a WS.I know it upsets EI,CM and other WS.
I also understand the feelings a BS goes through.
Some BS's dont get that the WS feels pain also.
I'm sorry but I feel the BS goes through a much greater pain but it also depends on the circumstances.
CSS got pretty upset.
Some of these boneheads spewing this are hurt and lost and need time and need to know that there are people out there who are working their ass's off to make things right.
Everyone desevers a chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TBT

Personally,I love seeing the WSs posting on those threads.They're usually in R to some degree or another,so what better perspective to be had? For some reason,which I find unfortunate,if the wayward is a woman they seem to take a bit more flack.Chin up CSS.


----------



## CantSitStill

Yep that was silly of me to get upset, screw it lol
I was there to help the poster not anyone else and the poster always says he wants to hear the former WS' to understand his wife's fog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I understant how CSS feels when a poster like tot
> goes off a little on a WS.I know it upsets EI,CM and other WS.
> I also understand the feelings a BS goes through.
> Some BS's dont get that the WS feels pain also.
> I'm sorry but I feel the BS goes through a much greater pain but it also depends on the circumstances.
> CSS got pretty upset.
> Some of these boneheads spewing this are hurt and lost and need time and need to know that there are people out there who are working their ass's off to make things right.
> Everyone desevers a chance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What happens, all too often, on TAM, is that threads get posted asking for input from the WS's. Then, no sooner than a WS responds to the OP's request, the verbal attacks begin. I think that we are all here for a reason.... and, hopefully, that is to help and/or learn from one another. 

If no WS responds to the thread, then a specific group of TAMers will make snide comments saying that none of the WS's have the courage to respond. If they do respond, those same TAMers jump on the "verbal assault" bandwagon. I believe that there are certain posters who feel a sense of superiority and entitlment to speak in whatever derogatory manner they choose regarding any/all WS's. Ironically enough, it is often the very posters who say that they have never been cheated on and that they would never reconcile if they were. Sadly, if you were to ask any BS on TAM, or anywhere else, if they ever thought that their spouse would be unfaithful, I'm virtually certain that every one of them would have said "no way."

So, when I see one of "those threads" go up, I check to see who the OP is. Then, depending on the kind of day I'm having and how much time I have to spare, I may or may not respond. But, if I do, I will often add a disclaimer that I will answer any questions, even the hard ones, as long as they are not rude to me. Because I, personally, do not owe them anything. My time, my energy and my emotional reserves are best served with my spouse and my children, working on my reconciliation. If I have any left over, I will share it..... but not to rude people. If I don't value myself, then how can I expect others to. The truth is, I do want to help, I do want to make a positive difference, but not at the risk of having others think that they are entitled to project their own issues onto me.


----------



## cpacan

Yesterday; I realized that something good comes from recovering from betrayal and infidelity. My line of thinking about the present, what I can control and what not, what I deserve and what I don't, the coping, tha handling of a crisis. Very valuable, I think.

Yesterday I was laid off after 13 years in the same organization. I was surprised, but not in shock. I didn't get angry, no disbelief, no tears, no nothing. The worst part was actually to see the tears in the eyes of colleagues who couldn't believe it.

Also my wife's reaction was interesting, first reaction was "I'm sorry, you don't deserve it, what about the house and finances...?"

It won't be easy to find the ideal job for me, not many of them, but of course I will do everything in my power to find it. Though some dark part of me almost wish that we have to face financial disaster for a period of time, it should put to test if we are together for the right reasons, whatever that means.

Other than that, I have had a few very good weeks with a lot of self improvement and more awareness in our relationship - also some disagreements, bur most of them turned out good.

But in the following weeks I know what to do: Think, and choose a strategy for winning a new job or upscaling the small part time online business I already have.

May the force be with you, reconsilers.


----------



## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> Well I just got ripped apart for helping someone and it really hurt. I am so frustrated. It's that thread called "should I tell my wife about the fog" or something like that..so for trying to help I get crap from other idiots that don't know our story..GRRR
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've visited that thread a few times CSS the OP doesn't want to hear it, he's asking for advice but when it's given he had a tantrum and says his situation is 'different'.
Don't take it personally hon!
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

daisygirl 41 said:


> I've visited that thread a few times CSS the OP doesn't want to hear it, he's asking for advice but when it's given he had a tantrum and says his situation is 'different'.
> Don't take it personally hon!
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That happens a lot. People want to be told that they already believe/want to do is right, and they (naturally) get upset when they are told otherwise.

Accepting criticism is not easy (I've done some writing, and having people critique your work your painful enough - having your marriage, life and core beliefs critiqued whilst your wold is falling apart must be excruciating) so I have sympathy both ways. You don't deserve to be attacked, but I can understand why they lash out.


----------



## Rags

cpacan said:


> Yesterday I was laid off after 13 years in the same organization. I was surprised, but not in shock. I didn't get angry, no disbelief, no tears, no nothing. The worst part was actually to see the tears in the eyes of colleagues who couldn't believe it.
> 
> Also my wife's reaction was interesting, first reaction was "I'm sorry, you don't deserve it, what about the house and finances...?"


I was laid off - job outsourced - a few years back. And yes, the shock is quite something - usual stages of grief, yadda, yadda.

My wife's reaction was surprising - she immediately started house-hunting, looking to size up!

I've had it explained to me that this is the action of a wife who implicitly trusts her husband, and that she expected me to get a better job - and in the middle of the worst recession in a century ...

(as it happens, it took them 9 months to actually let us go - they needed handovers, and were offering substantial retention bonuses to get us to help - and I had a month of no work while the HR department in the next place got round to processing my position - which paid a fair bit more, even if the job itself isn't perfect...)

And she found a bigger house, which we've bought, and which we've very happy with, and paid significantly less than market value for.

So, I'm glad you're not dispairing - and sometimes these things can come as a blessing, even if the disguise is very good.


----------



## MattMatt

EI said:


> MM, Rags, c'mon, get with the program and take that test! Then, post your results post haste...... We need to start analyzing people here.....
> 
> This isn't for TAM "couples" only. This is for the greater good..... or something like that!
> 
> Pretty please with :scratchhead: chocolate and.....  bacon on top! :smthumbup:


I'll do that test at home. Sat in my office, the managing director is playing 80s music, so it's a groovy kind of day!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

Tests? I'm supposed to be dealing with a critical incident, and preparing a Change Order for next week - I don't have time for pop-psych tests!

(Which might make you realise why my posting rate has jumped up suddenly - I don't _want_ to prep a Change Order - it's boring ....)

I'll see what I can do.


----------



## margrace

cpacan said:


> Yesterday; I realized that something good comes from recovering from betrayal and infidelity. My line of thinking about the present, what I can control and what not, what I deserve and what I don't, the coping, tha handling of a crisis. Very valuable, I think.
> 
> Yesterday I was laid off after 13 years in the same organization. I was surprised, but not in shock. I didn't get angry, no disbelief, no tears, no nothing. The worst part was actually to see the tears in the eyes of colleagues who couldn't believe it.
> 
> Also my wife's reaction was interesting, first reaction was "I'm sorry, you don't deserve it, what about the house and finances...?"
> 
> It won't be easy to find the ideal job for me, not many of them, but of course I will do everything in my power to find it. Though some dark part of me almost wish that we have to face financial disaster for a period of time, it should put to test if we are together for the right reasons, whatever that means.
> 
> Other than that, I have had a few very good weeks with a lot of self improvement and more awareness in our relationship - also some disagreements, bur most of them turned out good.
> 
> But in the following weeks I know what to do: Think, and choose a strategy for winning a new job or upscaling the small part time online business I already have.
> 
> May the force be with you, reconsilers.


and may it also be with you, cpacan.

something like this happened to me a few years ago and i wish that i had had your attitude. after a few months, i found something else, and by now, i see that it was a good move for me that i probably never would have made on my own.

keep us posted


----------



## SomedayDig

daisygirl 41 said:


> I've visited that thread a few times CSS the OP doesn't want to hear it, he's asking for advice but when it's given he had a tantrum and says his situation is 'different'.
> Don't take it personally hon!
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That guy was kind of a jerk from the beginning of the thread. I and quite a few others initially tried to help and he just shrugged everything off with the "we Brits don't act in such uncivilised ways". I retorted back that we're pretty civiliZed and see ya. Haven't been in the stupid thread since.

For today...I'm responding to an email from a couple who is going through this infidelity crap. It's difficult...it's hard. I'm going to do my best to advise them, but I gotta say that reading about this stuff on a daily basis is quite tough and I know it has taken a toll on me and my recovery.

I hate to say it, but I really hope there's a time when TAM is not in my History list or my temp files. Dday was 1 year ago next week. I don't know if I can be around the boards.

Reconciliation to me means that the little boy inside of me doesn't need to reach out for big me to hold his hand and say it'll be okay.


----------



## Rags

SomedayDig said:


> reading about this stuff on a daily basis is quite tough and I know it has taken a toll on me and my recovery.


Ironic that those best placed to offer advice are particularly those who shouldn't, as it causes them problems ... 

I hope it ceases to cause you problems - as much as helps when the situation is fresh, it's probably good for you (collectively) once you no longer need support yourselves, to go and stop being dragged down and triggered.

But then you deny the help that you received to others ... twisted, isn't it?

(I've been reading on here long enough that I can probably spout a lot of the received wisdom myself - but who would listen, considering how much personal experience I have?)

btw, the British have plenty of experience of being uncivilised - e.g. Amritsar - however some of do occasionally manage to rise above it, if only for a short time (and while there still a Britain worthy of the name ...)


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> I've visited that thread a few times CSS the OP doesn't want to hear it, he's asking for advice but when it's given he had a tantrum and says his situation is 'different'.
> Don't take it personally hon!
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great,I got that bonehead PM'ing me saying
basically dont trust CSS and that she is pretty
much lying about what happened.
I know, blow him off.
He said he saw alot of her post and she is trying to fool people.
It should'nt get to me but it does alittle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Great,I got that bonehead PM'ing me saying
> basically dont trust CSS and that she is pretty
> much lying about what happened.
> I know, blow him off.
> He said he saw alot of her post and she is trying to fool people.
> It should'nt get to me but it does alittle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Block him. He's a drama queen. Nothing more.


----------



## CantSitStill

I can't believe this, now he has cal thinking I'm not being honest what the heck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> I can't believe this, now he has cal thinking I'm not being honest what the heck
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. Calvin knows the truth. This idiot is not going to put ideas in calvin's head. Nothing can get into calvin's (block)head. lol


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> No. Calvin knows the truth. This idiot is not going to put ideas in calvin's head. Nothing can get into calvin's (block)head. lol


Um...thanks bfree,I think 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

couple idiots this week my gosh i hate this place
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Um...thanks bfree,I think
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love you bud.


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> couple idiots this week my gosh i hate this place
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its not just TAM. Idiots are not in short supply....unfortunately.


----------



## Rags

One of the maxims I live by:

'Never assume malice when incompetence would explain'


----------



## GJfromCAN

Hello all. This my first post here on TAMs but like many, I've been lurking and gathering information for a little while.

I originally arrived on TAMs looking for suggestions for dealing with issues my current common-law wife/partner and I have been having. Mostly relating to communication, trust and HSD vs LSD issues (going both ways from time-to-time). We've been together, on and off, for 8 years. However, I was drawn to the Coping With Infidelity forum as I was the BS in my previous marriage. It was the type of nasty "Women With Issues meets Nice Guy Trying To Be A White Knight (i.e Man With Issues)" scenario you see over and over again in this forum. Piece together parts of a dozen of those posts and you'll have most of my tale.

Reading the stories in this forum made me realize just how much unresolved anger and pain I am still dealing with from the B and D. Also how all that negatively has impacted my post D relationships, including some friendships. I have seen so much solid advice dispensed (sometimes in the form of tough love) by caring people who have really been there and been turned on to some really eye-openning books (MMSPL, Love Languages and next on the list is No More Mr Nice Guy). While no book or books can provide all the answers to a given relationship, they have been giving me some insight into the one question which has been gnawing at me for years, "Why did this happen?" Not knowing the answer to that question, along with the impact of other failed relationships, has prevented my being able to fully trust anyone I am with. 

I suppose at this point I'll never know the true answer to that question, but I'm realizing that the real question is how do I work on myself to build the confidence to truly trust my partner and to recognize who is a worthy recipent of the best I have to offer.

Anyway, this is really a big thank you to all the contibutors to this forum who have taken the time to share their stories, their successes and failures and to reach out to internet strangers.

I decided to post on this thread for three reasons:
1) This thread seems to be a gathering place for many of the posters whose opinions I have come to really respect: EI, B1, CSS, Calvin, DD, CM, cpacan, bfree and too many others to name. (I'll be kicking myself later when I realize who I forgot to mention);
2) As I mentioned, my current partner and I are working on issues running back for many years and seem to be working things out well at the moment, so, we are in a form of reconcilliation;
3) The strength and commitment you have displayed when dealing with hard times blows me away sometimes. It's occaisonally left me a little choked up, and that's saying something because the last time I cried was 28 years ago when my childhood dog died  (or is it ). Just as importantly, the support you show to each other (not just your spouses) is really inspirational. I've never been one to share my feelings easily, so reading this thread really gives me a good feeling, even if I've only been a lurker to date.

So to everyone here, whether you are a BS or WS, whether you are in R or D, I wish you all the strength to overcome the challenges you are facing and I hope you achieve the happiness you richly deserve. I'm rooting for you all.

Thank-you again and sorry for the thread jack.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Cpacan, I'm so sorry to hear about your lay-off. Here's sending positive thoughts your way that your new job is even better than the old one!

CSS and Calvin - you can't let someone else who is in an earlier stage of processing this mess drag you backwards in your progress. It sucks that TAM is simultaneously a massive help and trigger for most of us at the same time. It really requires a strong filter, and a recognition that even when you try to reach out and offer a perspective that has been ASKED for, you may end up getting burned. Keep your focus on the two of you, and not someone on the internet who is not invested or knowledgeable of what you have faced and overcome.

---------------------------------
As for us, today is Matt's birthday. Our son thought he needed a "dragon train cake" to celebrate, so I worked last night to attempt to carve and decorate one. I have to say, my efforts are nowhere near the ability of my husband's in cake making, but hopefully it will still taste ok. 

This morning started fine, but as we pulled up to work, Matt said he thought today would be a bad one for him. I'd appreciate any positive energy you can send his way. We're supposed to go visit his mom tonight and have dinner with the best man from our wedding. I hope we can come through today and have a nice evening together.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

Thanks MrsM, I try too keep the thought of getting a better job, or maybe launching my own business. But it's rather fresh, so it's still easy.

I would just like too remind you of one thing, speaking as a BS, all anniversaries, special days etc. are perfect triggers to a BS and are not that special anymore, especially the first year, it gets better as time goes by, I guess. 

What I would have liked my wife too do, was to acknowledge the day and what I might feel and think about that day. Just respect that it isn't special to me anymore.

Good luck, positive thoughts for you


----------



## B1

cpacan...So sorry about the layoff, prayers, thoughts your way to find a better even more fullfilling job!


Mrs. M, thoughts your way. I hope and pray MR. M. can get through this day ok. I feel for you both. I'm not sure yet how I will handle certain days myself. Keep in touch with him today, let him know your there and thinking of him, even if it's a quick text to say love you.


----------



## ChangingMe

So busy and tired from the move, and I feel like I have really neglected the forum. I really do miss you all! I've been trying to stay up with the reading, but I haven't even totally gotten to do that. Today is my 12th day of work in a row, and I cannot wait for it to be over!

We are going to dinner at our friends' house tonight. These are some of the only ones that have stuck with us both -and they are the ones that went through their own infidelity about 5 years ago, when the H cheated on the W. Now 5 years, and 2 more kids later, they are an excellent example of how marriages can survive and be good after adultery. 

Anyway, so dinner and hanging out with them tonight while all the kids play, and then tomorrow morning we are headed to my IL's lakehouse for the rest of the weekend. It is such a relaxing place, and I am looking forward to getting away. The ILs are great at helping with the kids while we're there, so I really will get some time to relax. 

So that's me. Back to you all.

Cpacan, I am so sorry about the job loss. You have an excellent attitude, and I think it will serve you well in whatever comes your way next in life. 

Daisygirl and CSS, I am sorry about the "negative nellies" out in the TAM world. It is hard. And it is yet another reason why this thread is the best on TAM. Just keep reminding yourselves that other people only know what they have read, and they all put their own experiences in their responses, so take them all with a grain of salt. Except for mine, of course, because I am very, very wise.  Totally kidding. I don't know what I'm doing most of the time. 

GJ, welcome to the R thread and to TAM (officially). Thank you very much for your kind words. As EI will tell you, this thread is for everyone, so don't feel you have to justify posting. Just post, and you will get good support here. 

EI, I hope you are doing better. Keep reminding yourself that you are loved (and worthy of love!) by B1, your kids, and all of us here on TAM. I don't want to hear otherwise! See my advice above -you should listen to me! 

Though I said it elsewhere, Happy birthday again, Matt. I hope today is a good day for you. I like seeing both you and MrsM posting on here. 

bfree, you are seriously one of my favorite posters. I think I have mentioned this before, but I think you are so wise and positive in your posts, and I have gained a lot from them. Thank you for that. 

Everyone else that I haven't specifically mentioned, I hope you are all doing well. Hopefully I will be back to my regularly scheduled EI-length posts by next week or so.  I am sure they have been missed!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks for the kind words and thoughts, all. I guess today is the day that Matt has decided to share our most recent developments with TAM at large. I appreciate those of you who have contacted me and offered support.

BTW, here's what a dragon train cake looks like.... I know you all were wondering! 











-


----------



## B1

Welcome GJfromCAN,

Glad you found your way here. Hopefully you have been able to get some help. The gnawing question "why did it happen"

Not knowing that would make things tough and It would eat at me too.
If it's eating at you because you think it's your fault, stop right there. It's not, you didn't deserve to be cheated on, no one does. Our spouse is NEVER supposed to do that, even if we were not the best spouses out there ourselves, we didn't deserve to be lied to, deceived and cheated on.

Now, you may need to dig way down and see if you played a part in the breakdown of your previous marriage. In there somewhere you will probably find your why. Where you distant, detached, not cherishing your wife, etc. these are reasons, NOT excuses but reasons. Sometimes it's an easy find. However, if you truly have no idea then that's going to be a tough one. None of us are perfect spouses, and the other spouse generally uses those imperfections\problems as the reason to have an affair. 

Valid reasons or not you still didn't desereve to be cheated on. 

But...The BIG question is, can you see those imperfections in yourself and work on them. 

For me I was emotionally and physically detached, I abandoned my wife and the marriage and refused to work on it. There is the why for me. A why I regret!

Now, 9 months out, My wife will say I deserved a lot of things then but being cheated on wasn't one of them. When she said that, I knew she got it, she really understood. I, B1, did not deserve to be cheated on, I didn't deserve to be lied to over and over again, I didn't deserve to be deceived so well and made a fool of, nor did you. 

I think you can probably figure out the why if you dig down deep enough.


----------



## EI

Mrs. M.,

I have got to say that your Dragon Train cake is without question the BEST Dragon Train cake I have ever seen in my life. The fact that it is the only Dragon Train cake that I've ever seen has no bearing on the incredible awesomeness of Dr. M.'s cake! 

cpacan, I'm so sorry about your job. But, you have worked so hard and learned so much about yourself in the last couple of years, I truly think you will be in a better position than ever going forward. It's kind of like you said while others were, understandably, visibly upset, you took it much better. You may even be willing to take more risks now than you would have in the past (perhaps with your online business) and that may be exactly what you need right now. 

GJ, welcome to the R" thread! CM took the words right out of my mouth....... Everyone is welcome here. And, that was certainly no thread jack..... It's just the kind of post we Reconcilers can sink our teeth into. I'm anxious to hear more of your story. I can already think of two of our posters who will probably have a lot of valuable input for you.... bfree and Rookie come to mind..... just based on what you've already posted. And, B1 and I have, also, dealt with HD and LD issues of our own so, perhaps, we will have some insight for you, as well. Thank you for your kind words about the posters on this thread. I am, unapologetically, biased about these guys...... they are the best that TAM has to offer whether they're posting on this thread or any of the others. BTW, your post was the just the kind of post I like!!!  It was an "EI" kind of post! 

CM, I hope you and your family have a much deserved relaxing and enjoyable weekend! 

Calvin, Calvin, Calvin........... Don't let some random poster get to you............ Don't go there. You're waaaaay better than that. You and CSS have come too far. Hang tough........ You're guys are winning this battle...... One day at a time.... no looking in the rear view mirror..... You promised me something recently..... I'm holding you to it. I've made promises to people on TAM whom I have learned to trust and respect..... It has gotten me this far. 


Everyone else, I love you guys, you're the best....... Have a great weekend!!!


----------



## bfree

Hey Mrs M, nice cake its....its.....nice

Just kidding its really awesome that you took the time to do that. The fact that you actually could envision a dragon train in order to make a cake like that is frankly pretty cool. And I'm sending positive thoughts not just for Matt but for you as well.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> Hey Mrs M, nice cake its....its.....nice
> 
> Just kidding its really awesome that you took the time to do that. The fact that you actually could envision a dragon train in order to make a cake like that is frankly pretty cool. And I'm sending positive thoughts not just for Matt but for you as well.


Is that Dragon Train for St David's Day? It's cool!:smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

Mrs.M,that is one cool cake.
That was very nice of you.You have a big heart.
EI,yeah that dude tot did kinda get to me.
I dont know why,its pretty stupid.
I dont give a crap about his opinion of me and CSS.
I'm good,I love CSS A LOT and its real,I'd still give my life if it would save hers.
EI I'm betting you really do have great singing voice,the way B1 talks about it and all.
CSS cant sing but its comforting to hear her sing anyway,it tells me she's happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

calvin said:


> CSS cant sing but its comforting to hear her sing anyway,it tells me she's happy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now, that's true love!


----------



## calvin

GJfromCan
You found a good placeto get help and support.
If you have too go through this crap,the people here are great.Sorry what you had to go through.

EI??? The place is filling up with damn yankees!!!
 ):-( 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

Oh, and I'm going to vent. I don't do it enough. Totally off-topic, and I apologise for that, but ahh, well - suck it up! 

It's gone 1:30 am ... I've been kicked out of the bedroom.
My work phone keeps going off (as it has been all week) and so I get why. Not blaming my wife.
I am blaming the incompetant idiots at work who _keep on_ screwing up simple little things that then fail in the middle of the night. And then I get called. Again, and again and again ...
The incompetance and general uselessness has truely been raised to new heights (or possibly depths) this week. And now I'm suffering for it.

I am so fed up with it.

Good job there's no one else up, as my temper has become rather short (lack of sleep getting to me.)

And I've run out of chocolate Halva.

Waaaaahhhhhhhhh!

(ok, so I know that in the grand scheme of things, this is all pretty trivial, but hey .... )


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

Today; it's 28 years since I met my wife in a disco, she was nearly 16, I walked her home that night, and we've been together since. It's also our 12-year anniversary day, and I actually bought a single rose and a bouquet for her this year. Last year was a disaster.

The kids are exited and haven't talked about anything else since the day before yesterday. We're going out for dinner tonight as a family.

I have VERY mixed emotions, but think I'll go with the fake it till I make it strategy.


----------



## Rags

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> Today; it's 28 years since I met my wife in a disco, she was nearly 16, I walked her home that night, and we've been together since. It's also our 12-year anniversary day, and I actually bought a single rose and a bouquet for her this year. Last year was a disaster.
> 
> The kids are exited and haven't talked about anything else since the day before yesterday. We're going out for dinner tonight as a family.
> 
> I have VERY mixed emotions, but think I'll go with the fake it till I make it strategy.


Happy anniversary - I hope. Good luck.


----------



## happyman64

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> Today; it's 28 years since I met my wife in a disco, she was nearly 16, I walked her home that night, and we've been together since. It's also our 12-year anniversary day, and I actually bought a single rose and a bouquet for her this year. Last year was a disaster.
> 
> The kids are exited and haven't talked about anything else since the day before yesterday. We're going out for dinner tonight as a family.
> 
> I have VERY mixed emotions, but think I'll go with the fake it till I make it strategy.


CPA
Happy anniversary as well.

Sometimes you have to fake it till. YOu make it.

I do know you want it. Or you still would not there....


----------



## jh52

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> Today; it's 28 years since I met my wife in a disco, she was nearly 16, I walked her home that night, and we've been together since. It's also our 12-year anniversary day, and I actually bought a single rose and a bouquet for her this year. Last year was a disaster.
> 
> The kids are exited and haven't talked about anything else since the day before yesterday. We're going out for dinner tonight as a family.
> 
> I have VERY mixed emotions, but think I'll go with the fake it till I make it strategy.


Happy 28th.
Sometimes we have to do whatever is needed.
Wishing you the best.


----------



## B1

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> Today; it's 28 years since I met my wife in a disco, she was nearly 16, I walked her home that night, and we've been together since. It's also our 12-year anniversary day, and I actually bought a single rose and a bouquet for her this year. Last year was a disaster.
> 
> The kids are exited and haven't talked about anything else since the day before yesterday. We're going out for dinner tonight as a family.
> 
> I have VERY mixed emotions, but think I'll go with the fake it till I make it strategy.


Happy anniversary cpa, sorry it's a downer right now. I hope things improve.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I hope you have a nice day with your family today, cpacan. It's wonderful that your kids can be included and that you have flowers for your wife. I'm sure they all appreciate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

I hope you and your family have a lovely day, cpacan, Happy Anniversary. I think the flowers are a very nice touch. You're a class act. I know it warms your heart seeing the excitement in your children's eyes. I hope you and your wife have a nice evening after dinner, as well. I'm glad this year was better than last. Maybe next year will be even better...........


----------



## bfree

cpacan, try to have the best day possible. Enjoy the time with your children and soak up the love.

Mrs M, you take care of yourself too. Please.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks, bfree. I'm trying. It's a little tougher some days. I didn't expect Matt to share our news yesterday. So I wasn't really able to brace myself for the stress very well. I'm trying very hard to use my TAM filter, but it's really difficult right now. I'll get through it, there's no other option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks, bfree. I'm trying. It's a little tougher some days. I didn't expect Matt to share our news yesterday. So I wasn't really able to brace myself for the stress very well. I'm trying very hard to use my TAM filter, but it's really difficult right now. I'll get through it, there's no other option.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Remember that things are always changing but the love for and from a child is forever.


----------



## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks, bfree. I'm trying. It's a little tougher some days. I didn't expect Matt to share our news yesterday. So I wasn't really able to brace myself for the stress very well. I'm trying very hard to use my TAM filter, but it's really difficult right now. I'll get through it, there's no other option.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why filter it.

The last time I checked it takes two to make babies.

You nd Matt. I could not think of. Better reason to make both of you sit down and discuss your future together. Discuss your Reconciliation plan.

Oh and if anyone wants to lay blame on you for getting pregnant let them blame god.that always works.

So embrace it. Both of you. And start planning together!


----------



## margrace

welcome, *GI*! *cpacan*, thinking of you on the occasion of your 28th. i have a string of anniversaries coming up too, and i am bracing myself for them  and *mrs. m*, i love your adorable cake!

if you are new, *here's the nutshell of my story*: my 1st dday was march 19th, 2012 and it was followed by TT with a WH who was not able to speak much with me about his feelings or anything else to do with his infidelity. we went to MC briefly during that time, but although his body was in the room, he was not doing much of anything. as i pulled myself together, i was able to stop trying so hard to fix the marriage (which i had helped to sink in the first place) and started working harder on myself and my own life -- whatever direction that might take. WH slowly began to emerge from his fog (or denial or whatever) and went back to therapy for real on jan. 7th. that's when R really began.

this thread kept me going. *thank you, BSs*, for helping me see that i'm not crazy and that i would survive! *thank you, WSs*, for sharing your journey so that i could make sense of my WH!

update:

* i'm doing lots of work in IC on how i try to "fix" WAY too much (yes, as many of you have pointed out!) to protect myself from having everyone around me crumble and disappear. long story short, like lots of people, i had parents who struggled desperately in their own ways -- and who lost their struggles. i realize how little trust i have that *anyone *can/will be strong for me. so i kind of set things up so that i never have to find out. not fair to them or me.

* right now i have an underlying feeling of wanting to throw up because POSOW is in town for a while (does not live here full-time).

* WH seems to be working on his stuff. he tells me that he is thinking about it every day and i see that he is. e.g., we watched a documentary on how the catholic church covered up child abuse as it came to light. he told me that one of the things he came away with was generally how people can use all kinds of rationales to conceal their own immoral behavior from others and from themselves, and how devastating that is, and how that's what he did to me.

* i showed WH some of my posts to you. he already knew that i corresponded here but i don't think he has ever actually looked. the most recent posts of mine that he saw were to some of you WSs that i have learned from. he seemed a little spooked but i think he also saw that, when WSs are fully honest and accountable and remorseful, there can be a path back to yourself and your marriage.

* you might remember that there are still huge missing pieces and lies remaining in his account of his cheating. he tells me that he wants to change all that, and he suggested monday (day after tomorrow) in MC as a time to begin.

so we'll see. i believe in his sincere intentions these days... but i feel that it's kind of 50-50 that he can really act on that. that doesn't mean that i give up yet. no, no, no. but it does mean that i need to SEE the action, the changes, the transparency that all of you have described before i'm convinced that we have a future together. (i'm not quite convinced of that now... like, i occasionally look at apartments for myself...)

although i definitely have my own work to do, i have to let him do the part of the R work that is all his, and let him succeed or fail, and go from there.


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks, bfree. I'm trying. It's a little tougher some days. I didn't expect Matt to share our news yesterday. So I wasn't really able to brace myself for the stress very well. I'm trying very hard to use my TAM filter, but it's really difficult right now. I'll get through it, there's no other option.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. M., I completely understand the "TAM" filter! You don't have to use it on this thread. WE want the best for you, Dr. M, your son, and baby M., whatever that happens to be. I know this is a stressful time..... Do whatever you have to do to keep it at a minimum. If that means staying away from TAM for a while then stay away. Or utilize the pm option to stay in touch with those of us who wish to help rather than create unnecessary drama. I know you have email addresses and phone numbers for a few of us. Use them as needed. 

One more thing, for those who are suggesting that you "planned" this pregnancy to trap Dr. M. into a reconciliation, I would simply remind them that this child was not conceived through immaculate conception!  Dr. M., if you're reading this (and I know you are) you know that's true!


----------



## GJfromCAN

CM, B1, EI, Calvin, Margrace thank you very much for the warm welcome. 

B1 your advice was spot on, however given what I have read from you I would have expected nothing less . I certainly contributed mightily to the breakdown of my marriage, both through what I thought were positive actions as well as what I knew were negative. Much of what I have read has just started to open my eyes to the areas I need to work on. Regarding the A (or As actually), my marriage was over before I became aware of them. I literally found irrefutable proof the day I was moving the last of my belongings out. I have never spoken of it to anyone, probably due to pride I suppose. My exW doesn’t even know that I know. Instead of dealing with it I just used it to confirm that my decision to leave was correct and jammed it down inside to where it could poison my later relationships. I’ve got a lot of work to do 

EI I probably will share my full story at some point on a separate thread. I think it would be a good, therapeutic first step. It may take a little time to dredge up all the details, but I have learned that it order to get good advice you need to tell the whole story. BTW - Rookie was one of the many I neglected to thank by name (there’s the first kick )

Cpacan I’m sorry to hear about your job situation. I just had to re-enter the job market after 15 years in the same position. It’s scary as h*ll but I’m trying to deal with it as a wakeup call to restart the way I approach many parts of my life. We’ll see how I feel in two weeks  I’m sending positive thoughts your way.

Rags I feel your pain. I left my position 3 weeks ago and the ****ers still call me almost every day! They owe me a lot of free beers!

CSS I know it’s already been said but I think a lot of BSs simply can’t believe a WS can be remorseful and try to draw strength from feeling like they can’t be fooled again. They don’t know you and they don’t know Calvin. I have a great deal of respect for you, CM, MrsM, EI and all the WSs who endure the slings and arrows to share your views and experiences. Without you I suspect the CWI threads would just be a bunch of links to VAR retailers and divorce lawyers. All my best to you and Calvin.

CM I hope you and DD and your kids have a wonderful weekend. I have to send you a special thanks. It was actually a random Google search for “She created on me” which brought me to DD’s thread. (I was NOT in a good place that night). I was curious to see where I had landed (TAMs) and started to explore some of the threads which were relevant to my current situation. What I suppose was masochistic curiosity brought me back to DDs thread. That is where I started to realise just how much pain I was still feeling from my experiences with my exW and how much they were impacting my current relationship. Hopefully I’ve made these realizations in time to build a life with a very good lady. So, it may sound very strange but I owe you and DD a lot.

MrsM, I realise you and DrM are going through very turbulent times. As I said above I have a great deal of respect for you for sharing your experiences. I’m proof that you may not be aware of the people you are helping. My congratulations to you and DrM and I wish you all the best. And..absolutely the best dragon-train cake I have ever seen…and I’ve seen some mighty fine dragon-train cakes in my day 

Another epic post from the new guy. Just imagine the pipe-space I’ll take up in my own thread. On a personal note, my partner mentioned this morning over breakfast, through what I hope were happy tears, that she is happier now in the relationship than she has been in a long time. So perhaps I’ve started doing something right.

I wish you all a very good weekend.


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> EI??? The place is filling up with damn yankees!!!
> ):-(
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know, I know...... What the heck are we gonna do about that!


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> welcome, *GI*! *cpacan*, thinking of you on the occasion of your 28th. i have a string of anniversaries coming up too, and i am bracing myself for them  and *mrs. m*, i love your adorable cake!
> 
> if you are new, *here's the nutshell of my story*: my 1st dday was march 19th, 2012 and it was followed by TT with a WH who was not able to speak much with me about his feelings or anything else to do with his infidelity. we went to MC briefly during that time, but although his body was in the room, he was not doing much of anything. as i pulled myself together, i was able to stop trying so hard to fix the marriage (which i had helped to sink in the first place) and started working harder on myself and my own life -- whatever direction that might take. WH slowly began to emerge from his fog (or denial or whatever) and went back to therapy for real on jan. 7th. that's when R really began.
> 
> this thread kept me going. *thank you, BSs*, for helping me see that i'm not crazy and that i would survive! *thank you, WSs*, for sharing your journey so that i could make sense of my WH!
> 
> update:
> 
> * i'm doing lots of work in IC on how i try to "fix" WAY too much (yes, as many of you have pointed out!) to protect myself from having everyone around me crumble and disappear. long story short, like lots of people, i had parents who struggled desperately in their own ways -- and who lost their struggles. i realize how little trust i have that *anyone *can/will be strong for me. so i kind of set things up so that i never have to find out. not fair to them or me.
> 
> * right now i have an underlying feeling of wanting to throw up because POSOW is in town for a while (does not live here full-time).
> 
> * WH seems to be working on his stuff. he tells me that he is thinking about it every day and i see that he is. e.g., we watched a documentary on how the catholic church covered up child abuse as it came to light. he told me that one of the things he came away with was generally how people can use all kinds of rationales to conceal their own immoral behavior from others and from themselves, and how devastating that is, and how that's what he did to me.
> 
> * i showed WH some of my posts to you. he already knew that i corresponded here but i don't think he has ever actually looked. the most recent posts of mine that he saw were to some of you WSs that i have learned from. he seemed a little spooked but i think he also saw that, when WSs are fully honest and accountable and remorseful, there can be a path back to yourself and your marriage.
> 
> * you might remember that there are still huge missing pieces and lies remaining in his account of his cheating. he tells me that he wants to change all that, and he suggested monday (day after tomorrow) in MC as a time to begin.
> 
> so we'll see. i believe in his sincere intentions these days... but i feel that it's kind of 50-50 that he can really act on that. that doesn't mean that i give up yet. no, no, no. but it does mean that i need to SEE the action, the changes, the transparency that all of you have described before i'm convinced that we have a future together. (i'm not quite convinced of that now... like, i occasionally look at apartments for myself...)
> 
> although i definitely have my own work to do, i have to let him do the part of the R work that is all his, and let him succeed or fail, and go from there.


Wow, margrace a lot going on in your world. I hope and pray that Monday will be the end of your husband keeping the truth from you. You deserve some answers and have been more than patient.

Sorry to here the posow is in town  I'm sure your radar is in high gear, sorry. 

Let us know, if you don't mind, how Monday goes. 

Glad to see you are working on you and staying strong.


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> I know, I know...... What the heck are we gonna do about that!


Another war?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

GJfromCAN said:


> Another epic post from the new guy. Just imagine the pipe-space I’ll take up in my own thread. On a personal note, my partner mentioned this morning over breakfast, through what I hope were happy tears, that she is happier now in the relationship than she has been in a long time. So perhaps I’ve started doing something right.
> 
> I wish you all a very good weekend.


There's something about your posts that seem vaguely familiar to me...... It's as if I could have written them, myself! I can't quite put my finger on it...... :scratchhead:  

Of course, I'm teasing..... I can't wait to see your thread go up. I'm anxious to hear your story. I think it's so wise for individuals to seek "help" before a relationship reaches the stage of being on life support. Kudos to you for recognizing that your left over baggage from the past is affecting your relationships today and making the conscious to work on yourself. 


BTW..... I really like your writing style!


----------



## calvin

GandJ
Thanks for your kind words.
Yeah it sucks but you wound up at the right place for help.
You could spend alot of cash on a counselor and still not get the kind of help that you will get from
the good folks here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

GJ, 

You never confronted your ex about her affair, WOW! You have held this in for a long time now. Suppressing isn't good in the long run. When you feel like it, do share it in a thread, if anything it will be therapeutic for you, letting out that pain will help. Plus, a question I assume you have is, do you tell her now? Perhaps that can be the title of your thread? 

I am sorry you have been holding that in for so long, it has to hurt.


----------



## margrace

B1 said:


> Wow, margrace a lot going on in your world. I hope and pray that Monday will be the end of your husband keeping the truth from you. You deserve some answers and have been more than patient.
> 
> Sorry to here the posow is in town  I'm sure your radar is in high gear, sorry.
> 
> Let us know, if you don't mind, how Monday goes.
> 
> Glad to see you are working on you and staying strong.


thank you, B1 -- yes, you are so right about my radar. it wears you out when it's on high gear like that, doesn't it 

i will definitely let you all know how monday goes... thanks for your good wishes!


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Mrs. M., I completely understand the "TAM" filter! You don't have to use it on this thread. WE want the best for you, Dr. M, your son, and baby M., whatever that happens to be. I know this is a stressful time..... Do whatever you have to do to keep it at a minimum. If that means staying away from TAM for a while then stay away. Or utilize the pm option to stay in touch with those of us who wish to help rather than create unnecessary drama. I know you have email addresses and phone numbers for a few of us. Use them as needed.
> 
> One more thing, for those who are suggesting that you "planned" this pregnancy to trap Dr. M. into a reconciliation, I would simply remind them that this child was not conceived through immaculate conception!  Dr. M., if you're reading this (and I know you are) you know that's true!


Sorry ,EI but I disagree most strongly. There is only ONE question that has any validity at all. Did DR. Mathias know or not know if MM was on BC or not. Everything else is irelevant. If he did not know, then MM is not a truly remorseful WS and is still disrepecting and manipulating DM, for her own purposes. If he Did know, then it show very poor judgement on BOTH their parts. I can say that if Sweetie had tried anything like this she would be back in her appartment so fast her head would swim. Dr. Mathias has every right to be furious. This is NOT the Stone age, an educated, adult woman rarely (if ever) gets pregnant, by accident. If MM did not THINK she would get pregnant, SHE WAS WILLING FOR IT TO HAPPEN. For what purpose? To force R, there is no other rational explanation. Where, in all of this, is there any concern for DR. M's rights and feelings? Is it all about MM? Is DM to be forced to accept a fait accompli, and accept back a cheating wife, in order to be a good father to his now 2 kids? No BS deserves to be treated like this.


----------



## Rags

Whist I agree that trying to get pregnant to trap someone is evil, and betrays both the prospective father, and the prospective child - I do think that having sex involves the 'risk' of pregnancy, and if you're not willing to accept that risk, the best option is to not have sex ...

(I appreciate and very much enjoy the recreational and bonding aspects of sex with my wife, and have no intention of having another child - and yet no form of birth contol is 100%, although abstinance comes pretty close. If I wasn't willing to accept that risk, I'd have to choose not to have sex.)

The 'blame' can't be completely one way, I think.

Every child deserves the right to be brought into a loving family with two parents who love and caref or them, and eachother. It distresses me that so many don't get that.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry ,EI but I disagree most strongly. There is only ONE question that has any validity at all. Did DR. Mathias know or not know if MM was on BC or not. Everything else is irelevant. If he did not know, then MM is not a truly remorseful WS and is still disrepecting and manipulating DM, for her own purposes. If he Did know, then it show very poor judgement on BOTH their parts. I can say that if Sweetie had tried anything like this she would be back in her appartment so fast her head would swim. Dr. Mathias has every right to be furious. This is NOT the Stone age, an educated, adult woman rarely (if ever) gets pregnant, by accident. If MM did not THINK she would get pregnant, SHE WAS WILLING FOR IT TO HAPPEN. For what purpose? To force R, there is no other rational explanation. Where, in all of this, is there any concern for DR. M's rights and feelings? Is it all about MM? Is DM to be forced to accept a fait accompli, and accept back a cheating wife, in order to be a good father to his now 2 kids? No BS deserves to be treated like this.


From what I read she was on BC but needed antibiotic for an illness. The doctor indicated that this was probably the reason why the BC failed. So yes she was on BC and yes they both knew she was taking antibiotic. Sometimes "stuff" just happens.

Mrs bfree says I am a romantic so I hope that this pregnancy brings them together and forces them to deal with any lingering issues that may have not been addressed. They should do this for the sake of the child if for no other reason. Maybe 10 years from now they will look back on the "miracle child" that brought them back together. Like I said....I am a romantic.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry ,EI but I disagree most strongly. There is only ONE question that has any validity at all. Did DR. Mathias know or not know if MM was on BC or not. Everything else is irelevant. If he did not know, then MM is not a truly remorseful WS and is still disrepecting and manipulating DM, for her own purposes. If he Did know, then it show very poor judgement on BOTH their parts. I can say that if Sweetie had tried anything like this she would be back in her appartment so fast her head would swim. Dr. Mathias has every right to be furious.


I was on the pill. Matt knew it, my purchase records at our pharmacy would verify it. I took it every day since May. I stopped AFTER I discovered I was pregnant. I don't know how you got the impression I was not on birth control or had stopped it without my husband's knowledge. I am VERY serious about contraception and have spent most of my adult life perceiving pregnancy as a negative thing. 

In addition, we had unprotected sex for THREE YEARS before I got pregnant with our son. My last doctor appointment before dis coving that pregnancy was about the likely necessity of fertility drugs if we really wanted to conceive due to my irregular cycles and the length of time we had been trying. It was very difficult for me to hear, and then our son seemed like a miracle. So before you adopt the typical uneducated male mindset that pregnancy is EASY or somehow can be a TOOL to use against men, check yourself. It's not easy for many of us. Not getting pregnant, and certainly not being pregnant. I was deathly ill for 2 full months with my first child. Lost 11 pounds instead of gaining any weight my first trimester, suffered extreme vertigo and neatly couldn't function. Yes, that sounds like an AWESOME solution to the absolute sh1thole my life is now. Let me snap my fingers. magically convince the husband that I cheated on to have sex with me during the 48 hour window that women are actually fertile in a month, telepathically direct a healthy sperm to make it all the way to my egg, successfully break in, fertilize it, force the egg to successfully implant in a uterus that is receiving anti-implantation hormones daily from a birth control pill, and THEN face my husband who hates me on any given day and give him the 2nd worst news of our lives. Not to mention, my brilliant ploy to be desperately seeking a new job and relocation, so that I get to interview while visibly pregnant. If you think that doesn't affect my chances you're fooling yourself. Plus the sickness, physical stress on my body, and financial stress. You're right!!!!! I'm a fvcking diabolical genius.

F you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

Calm ........ 


please.


----------



## BjornFree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I was on the pill. Matt knew it, my purchase records at our pharmacy would verify it. I took it every day since May. I stopped AFTER I discovered I was pregnant. I don't know how you got the impression I was not on birth control or had stopped it without my husband's knowledge. I am VERY serious about contraception and have spent most of my adult life perceiving pregnancy as a negative thing.
> 
> In addition, we had unprotected sex for THREE YEARS before I got pregnant with our son. My last doctor appointment before dis coving that pregnancy was about the likely necessity of fertility drugs if we really wanted to conceive due to my irregular cycles and the length of time we had been trying. It was very difficult for me to hear, and then our son seemed like a miracle. So before you adopt the typical uneducated male mindset that pregnancy is EASY or somehow can be a TOOL to use against men, check yourself. It's not easy for many of us. Not getting pregnant, and certainly not being pregnant. I was deathly ill for 2 full months with my first child. Lost 11 pounds instead of gaining any weight my first trimester, suffered extreme vertigo and neatly couldn't function. Yes, that sounds like an AWESOME solution to the absolute sh1thole my life is now. Let me snap my fingers. magically convince the husband that I cheated on to have sex with me during the 48 hour window that women are actually fertile in a month, telepathically direct a healthy sperm to make it all the way to my egg, successfully break in, fertilize it, force the egg to successfully implant in a uterus that is receiving anti-implantation hormones daily from a birth control pill, and THEN face my husband who hates me on any given day and give him the 2nd worst news of our lives. Not to mention, my brilliant ploy to be desperately seeking a new job and relocation, so that I get to interview while visibly pregnant. If you think that doesn't affect my chances you're fooling yourself. Plus the sickness, physical stress on my body, and financial stress. You're right!!!!! I'm a fvcking diabolical genius.
> 
> F you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M, I really do believe that you should take a break from TAM. This is a difficult time for you both emotionally and physically, the less stress you have the better it will be for both you and the baby. Look at it this way, that little thing growing inside you could be the glue that holds both you and DrM together. Look on the bright side of your situation, your pregnancy doesn't have to be viewed as something negative. That baby is going to be a part of Matt you can love even if your relationship with Matt breaks down completely.

Good luck and take care of yourself.


----------



## calvin

Oh sh!t. 
Nothing is for sure here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Mrs M

Peace.

For your sake and your babies.

And if you do not think someone is sending you a message then I do ot know what to tell you or Matt.

Patience.

If you love Matt and he still loves you then keep working hard to sort your mess out.

It takes 2 to make a baby. 
It takes 2 to have a marriage.
It takes 2 to reconcile.
It only takes 1 to ruin a marriage.
It only takes 1 to divorce.

You are both stronger together.

So focus on that.


----------



## bfree

Mrs M, please relax. You shouldn't stress out right now. Have a cup of chamomile tea (can pregnant women have that?) I know you aren't religious but I truly believe that sometimes things happen for a God reason (see what I did there?) This is your chance to make really good decisions for yourself and your new little one. It will all be ok.


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I was on the pill. Matt knew it, my purchase records at our pharmacy would verify it. I took it every day since May. I stopped AFTER I discovered I was pregnant. I don't know how you got the impression I was not on birth control or had stopped it without my husband's knowledge. I am VERY serious about contraception and have spent most of my adult life perceiving pregnancy as a negative thing.
> 
> In addition, we had unprotected sex for THREE YEARS before I got pregnant with our son. My last doctor appointment before dis coving that pregnancy was about the likely necessity of fertility drugs if we really wanted to conceive due to my irregular cycles and the length of time we had been trying. It was very difficult for me to hear, and then our son seemed like a miracle. So before you adopt the typical uneducated male mindset that pregnancy is EASY or somehow can be a TOOL to use against men, check yourself. It's not easy for many of us. Not getting pregnant, and certainly not being pregnant. I was deathly ill for 2 full months with my first child. Lost 11 pounds instead of gaining any weight my first trimester, suffered extreme vertigo and neatly couldn't function. Yes, that sounds like an AWESOME solution to the absolute sh1thole my life is now. Let me snap my fingers. magically convince the husband that I cheated on to have sex with me during the 48 hour window that women are actually fertile in a month, telepathically direct a healthy sperm to make it all the way to my egg, successfully break in, fertilize it, force the egg to successfully implant in a uterus that is receiving anti-implantation hormones daily from a birth control pill, and THEN face my husband who hates me on any given day and give him the 2nd worst news of our lives. Not to mention, my brilliant ploy to be desperately seeking a new job and relocation, so that I get to interview while visibly pregnant. If you think that doesn't affect my chances you're fooling yourself. Plus the sickness, physical stress on my body, and financial stress. You're right!!!!! I'm a fvcking diabolical genius.
> 
> F you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have given offense. I apologize most profoundly for doing so. I will not comment on your posts further. I'm sorry for both you and Dr. M and hope your situation works out for the best.


----------



## BjornFree

bfree said:


> Mrs M, please relax. You shouldn't stress out right now. Have a cup of chamomile tea (can pregnant women have that?)


No, I don't think they can. Especially not during early pregnancy. Try black decaf tea with lemon and honey.


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## jim123

Nobody deserves what Mrs.M is going through right now. I hope we can all show compassion and help her as much as possible. Everything is going wrong at this moment and she is all alone.

Mrs. M, you will get through this. It will all work out.


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## Rookie4

I agree and am embarassed by my comments. I did not see the post where it was explained about her being on the BC when she got pregnant. I am completely responsible for my words and will refrain from giving any advice in the future. This is what I have said many times, I do not feel qualified to give anybody , marital advice as I can only use my own experience as a guide line, and most other situations bear very little relationship to my own. Perhaps the best solution would be for me to leave the reconciliation thread , permanently, or only comment , without advising.


----------



## jim123

Rookie,

I am not attacking anyone, there are a lot of comments made. I have pushed Mrs. M in the past too. We need to recognize when someone needs to be reached out to. Mrs M was angry and she should have been. Some said she should take a break from TAM and I strongly disagree.

This is where people come to help end pain and get anger out. When someone acts out we should be there. Better angry with stangers than at home.

As a WS, Mrs. M has to bear all the pain for her actions. This is somewhere she should be able to let things out.

Do not over react either. This has to be the place to go to when there is no where else to go. Keep posting.


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## Rags

I think it would be good if you stayed, Rookie.

We're none of us perfect, and we all make mistakes (of varying scope and gravity.) Being able to aknowledge them, apologise, and learn from them is often difficult to achieve. I respect your rapid response.

If the worst thing you do in your life is upset someone on an internet forum, you've not done so badly!

I appreciate your comments, and I know others value yoru input. Not going off half-****ed is ... sometiong we can all aspire to.

There are bigger issues in life (as I'm sure we're all aware.)

And I think advice is often best kept circumspect


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## EI

This is a real thread made up of real people. I've said many times that we post the good, the bad and the mundane here. Everybody is welcome to post. 

Now, as a woman who has been pregnant a few times, herself, and has ridden the first trimester, hormonal roller coaster, without attempting to reconcile a marriage at the same time, I saw that big "F You" comin' a mile away.  Honestly, you're lucky that your head is still squarely attached to your body.  You can thank the Internet for that, because just as Mrs. M. does not posses the ability to create a pregnancy on demand, she cannot reach you with her right hook, either! 

Good Night, Reconcilers


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## Rookie4

EI, I have posted my apology and there is an end to it. I will not comment on MM's posts, but beyond that, I won't do anything more. I truly do have compassion for her and her husband, but that doesn't accord her the status of victim. Every bad thing that has happened to her is self-inflicted, because of her choice to cheat. she can "go off", on me if it will help her and I've no objection to getting the f-bomb dropped on me, but the person she should be "going off " on is herself, and the person she should be protecting the most is her husband. If ever there was a situation that screams for a trial separation, this is it. IDK how DM can handle all of this, I truly don't. I wouldn't have even tried, my self-respect and pride would not have allowed me to. Every post he makes leaves me with greater respect for Dr. M, than before. I feel the same about your hubby, too. Sooooooo, that's the last I'm gonna say about that.


----------



## Mr Blunt

WOW my ears are still ringing after reading Mrs. M’s response to Rookie!!!

Actually I am glad to see Mrs. M show some moxy! Somehow that tells me that she is doing better than she was months ago. *Just because Mrs. M made a huge mistake last year does not mean that she should allow someone to walk on her with inaccurate information and conclusions.*


*Even though Rookie stuck his foot in his month he is a stand up man and took responsibility and apologized*. There is one part of Rookie’s body that needs no more abuse and that is his foot. Rookie keep your foot (what is left of it) out of your mouth as much as possible. We all put our foot in our mouth sometime but your foot is not fully healed from the last time it got abused!

Rookie, I for one do not want you to leave the Reconciliation thread. First, your story with your wife is very encouraging to many. Secondly, you are blunt like me and that is appreciated. Thirdly, I am hoping that your great reconciliation continues but want to see how you two are doing after a year or two. I am hoping that you both keep kicking the affair right square in the AZZ! That will lift us all up and will be so good for your whole family. 

Once your honeymoon reconciliation is over there will be more hard work that you and your wife will face. At this point you and your wife seem to be really strong. Those are some of my reasons but I know that you will decide what you are going to do as that is the way it should be.




*Mrs. M and Mr. M*
When my wife got pregnant with our third child I was extremely upset. There were several reasons for me being so upset but one of them was that I did not want to be in my 50s raising a teenager. I even became resentful and that cost me. *I would give anything to go back and share in my wife’s joy.*

Long story short; my third son is the apple of my eye and I cannot imagine life without him. Yes we went to hell and back in his teen age years and a little after. *However, God taught me that this child is a blessing from above.* I wished that I had acted differently during her pregnancy and several years thereafter. I am making up for some of that now.

I am not telling you how to feel just telling you a truth about me. *Hope your child is as much of a blessing to you as mine is to me.*

Blunt


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## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> EI, I have posted my apology and there is an end to it. I will not comment on MM's posts, but beyond that, I won't do anything more. I truly do have compassion for her and her husband, but that doesn't accord her the status of victim. Every bad thing that has happened to her is self-inflicted, because of her choice to cheat. she can "go off", on me if it will help her and I've no objection to getting the f-bomb dropped on me, but the person she should be "going off " on is herself, and the person she should be protecting the most is her husband. If ever there was a situation that screams for a trial separation, this is it. IDK how DM can handle all of this, I truly don't. I wouldn't have even tried, my self-respect and pride would not have allowed me to. Every post he makes leaves me with greater respect for Dr. M, than before. I feel the same about your hubby, too. Sooooooo, that's the last I'm gonna say about that.


Rookie, I appreciate your apology and apologize to you in return for my outburst. While your information was inaccurate and assumptive, I know your intention was not malicious. 

My outburst was largely motivated by consistently feeling that many people on TAM specifically ignore the information my husband provides so that they can paint me in the worst light possible. I have done an azzload of sh1tty things and I face those every day. But I don't feel like I deserve to be portrayed as even WORSE than I actually am. I had lowered my TAM filter upon entering this thread, and did not expect a repeat of the comments you posted on Matt's thread in this environment. I responded in hurt and anger, and I apologize for that. 

I am not a victim, nor do I feel that I have played that card once in ANY of my postings. Most of my concern since discovering this pregnancy has been for Matt and what I am managing to put him through yet again. I am trying so hard to do the right things finally, and it's so frustrating to have something so monumental occur when I thought I was taking necessary precautions. It's also so painful to know that this should be happy news, and instead, it just rips us to pieces yet again. And then to hear people on TAM describe an innocent child as "a noose tightening" and a "living time marker for the worst time in [Matt's] life" is horrifying to me as a person, even if I weren't this baby's mother.

I have continued to state to Matt that I respect any decision he makes. That as Wazza pointed out, we are perfectly capable of co-parenting two children as a divorced couple instead of just one. If Matt decides to leave, I will never ask child support or anything from him, especially for a child he doesn't want. We have discussed abortion. I have attempted to communicate my preferences regarding divorce and abortion while still reinforcing that I will ultimately do whatever Matt wishes and what he decides is best for HIM.

I have no desire for you to censor yourself where Matt's and my posts are concerned. On the contrary, I think you have many valuable experiences and viewpoints to offer here, and typically find what you choose to share thoughtful and useful. It's another reason why I was so shocked by the emotional and accusatory tone, as well as the misinformation in your response. In my reading experience, you don't typically respond in that way or without having read the relevant information. I think that this issue is emotional for many people, and I don't blame anyone for having a strong reaction. I really appreciate all I have learned from you, directly and indirectly. Please know that you are very valuable here to many, many people. None of us are "experts" or more qualified to offer our experiences and opinions than anyone else. I hope Matt and I are fortunate enough to hear from you again at some point in the future.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I also want to apologize to B1, EI, and all the other reconcilers for polluting your haven with my negativity and drama. I shall be more thoughtful in the future. I'm truly sorry for being so combative to someone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I agree and am embarassed by my comments. I did not see the post where it was explained about her being on the BC when she got pregnant. I am completely responsible for my words and will refrain from giving any advice in the future. This is what I have said many times, I do not feel qualified to give anybody , marital advice as I can only use my own experience as a guide line, and most other situations bear very little relationship to my own. Perhaps the best solution would be for me to leave the reconciliation thread , permanently, or only comment , without advising.


You weren't the only one that asked that question. Please don't stop commenting. I find your words extremely helpful and appropriate. Besides, your posts make me smile so often when I'm having a bad day.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I also want to apologize to B1, EI, and all the other reconcilers for polluting your haven with my negativity and drama. I shall be more thoughtful in the future. I'm truly sorry for being so combative to someone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For my part no apology is necessary to me. I see the effort you are making and have made and I respect you a great deal. Babies are a miracle from God. I truly believe that. When Mrs bfree was expecting it was the greatest time in our marriage. I felt the closest to her then as I ever have and I truly hope that somehow this pregnancy will bring you and Matt closer and a joint healing will occur.


----------



## B1

Please stick around rookie, your story, your posts are valuable. 
We will not always agree, we will not always give the best advice, we are human, imperfect and not experts in this area. But, our stories, our experiences, can and do help others. Your story is a unique one here and you provide valuable input, and you quickly apologized when needed, I respect that a lot.
Your blunt and to the point, we know where you stand and I respect that too. 

Now...
As far as respecting me for sticking around, that's fine, but EI stuck around too for years and years while I ignored her and dodged sex as best I could. Rookie, Imagine if sweetie didn't want sex, I mean completely stopped wanting it and did everything she could to avoid it. Imagine if she made derogatory comments about your body, imagine if she said "It's just sex, what's the big deal". Imagine if she stopped touching you and wanting you to touch her, no kissing, hugging, nothing. EI put up with this and more for a very long time before she broke. No it wasn't right what she did, she was wrong, but when people say they respect me for sticking around, I want to say if you only knew what EI put up with, I truly believe you would respect her too. 

No one will know because you were not there and this isn't a forum about emotional and physical neglect and the damage it does to a persons core being. If this were that forum I would be like the ws and people would be respecting EI for hanging in there. Instead EI cheated and that act, here, overshadows everything else, it makes what I did to her all those years just vanish, it's like it never happened here. That could be pretty cool, my mistakes, my bad choices are ignored while EI catches ALL the heat, perfect place for me..not.

Fortunately for her I will NOT let that happen, I own what I did to her, I want others to know also. Many will say, oh here goes B1 again giving excuses for EI's A, Nope, no excuses, what she did isn't excused, it isn't justified, I didn't deserve it. Still, she put up with a lot of crap and neglect before she broke.

What she did hurt, and still hurts. It is and was devastating to me. I have NEVER hurt like this in my life, I am a 48 year old man and this has literally, on occasion, brought me to my knees in tears. I have cried on the floor countless times. I was broken, defeated.

I say this so all will know this isn't taken lightly, it wasn't a cake walk. I say this so others will know when I say EI was hurt too that they know where I am coming from, yet understand that prior to the A, she was hurt just as bad and for a much longer period. We could trade hurt stories for days and never really know who hurt worse. EI hurt then because of me, I hurt now because of her, but now we are on a public forum where others can only see and comment, and judge on A's. 

There is more but it gets personal as to what EI tolerated, she endured a lot for me, now I will endure a lot for her. And the enduring part gets easier by the week. We are truly connecting like never before and it's nice, very nice. 

I love EI and she loves me and I planted a new ring on her finger because I want to marry this incredible woman, again. This time around though, her husband is in touch with his emotions and expresses them. He's in tune with himself and loves like never before, and he likes and wants sex lots and lots of sex  and he wants hugs, to hold hands, to kiss and cuddle.
This husband will participate now, he's no longer defeated and beat down. I still have work to do on me, on us but it's all good work and I can't wait to see where we go from here.

Boy, I did not mean for this to go like this...but here it is. My Sunday more rambling is complete now, I need coffee, later.


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## bfree

The bottom line B1 is that you and EI have both owned up to what you each did. You've forgiven each other and now are each working on forgiving yourselves. That's how its supposed to work and that's why you and she are so far along.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> The bottom line B1 is that you and EI have both owned up to what you each did. You've forgiven each other and now are each working on forgiving yourselves. That's how its supposed to work and that's why you and she are so far along.


Well said.
It can be hard to let go of the crap but its pointless and useless to hold on to it.
Just brings more pain and does more damage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> Well said.
> It can be hard to let go of the crap but its pointless and useless to hold on to it.
> Just brings more pain and does more damage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin

You better printout your post and tape it on the. Refrigerator where you and CSS can repeat it every day.....

Repeat it to each other in a very lovingly manner.

HM64


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs. Mathias, thank you for your gracious apology, but It was and is un-necessary. I was at fault for not reading the proper post (where it stated that you were , in fact , on the pill) , so that I could have given a better and more sympathetic post. 
I would also like to point out that when people call me "blunt", it is, in fact, stupidity, LOL. My Degree is in Mechanical Engineering, I avoided Psychology and human Relations courses like the plagues of Egypt. OK, I'm just a dumb-ass jock, who wishes now that I had more insight and training into the workings of human emotions.


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Well said.
> It can be hard to let go of the crap but its pointless and useless to hold on to it.
> Just brings more pain and does more damage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin my friend please read what you wrote and take your own advice. You said it very well - now put these words into action.


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## calvin

jh52 said:


> Calvin my friend please read what you wrote and take your own advice. You said it very well - now put these words into action.


I know jh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

calvin said:


> I know jh
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you know Calvin - just a friendly reminder.

Hope you and CSS have a great day.


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Mrs. Mathias, thank you for your gracious apology, but It was and is un-necessary. I was at fault for not reading the proper post (where it stated that you were , in fact , on the pill) , so that I could have given a better and more sympathetic post.
> I would also like to point out that when people call me "blunt", it is, in fact, stupidity, LOL. My Degree is in Mechanical Engineering, I avoided Psychology and human Relations courses like the plagues of Egypt. OK, I'm just a dumb-ass jock, who wishes now that I had more insight and training into the workings of human emotions.


Actually I think you're pretty darned insightful if you ask me. You're not the only one that missed that fact btw. Cut yourself some slack. TAM can be a very emtionally charged place sometimes.

mea culpa haud magis


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> EI.........Every post he makes leaves me with greater respect for Dr. M, than before. *I feel the same about your hubby, too.*.


As do I, Rookie, as do I!  Every day when I wake up with B1, I feel like a kid at Christmas.... completely overwhelmed by how blessed I am and so very humbled to be loved the way this man loves me. 


P.S. I love you, B1....... but, we can't let my _"first husband" _find out about you....... he would never understand! 

* Inside joke people.......... Hopefully, it's self-explanatory!


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## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I also want to apologize to B1, EI, and all the other reconcilers for polluting your haven with my negativity and drama. I shall be more thoughtful in the future. I'm truly sorry for being so combative to someone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No apologies necessary, Mrs. M., certainly not for polluting our haven....... It belongs to all of us....... it's been "polluted" plenty of times in the past and it will get "polluted" again, I'm sure. To be quite honest.... issues as complicated as CWI, unplanned pregnancies, etc., could never be thoroughly sorted out if everyone kept themselves restricted to polite conversation only! 

Take care,
EI


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I also want to apologize to B1, EI, and all the other reconcilers for polluting your haven with my negativity and drama. I shall be more thoughtful in the future. I'm truly sorry for being so combative to someone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is how you reconcile. You need to let things out. Anyone who thinks a WS gets away with everything is mistaken. For any WS who wants to R the price they pay for greater than most people realize.

Things are never resolved by holding them in.


----------



## EI

jim123 said:


> That is how you reconcile. You need to let things out. Anyone who thinks a WS gets away with everything is mistaken. For any WS who wants to R the price they pay for greater than most people realize.
> 
> Things are never resolved by holding them in.


Amen and Amen.........

Nice to see you posting on the "R" thread, jim123!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

jim123 said:


> That is how you reconcile. You need to let things out. Anyone who thinks a WS gets away with everything is mistaken. For any WS who wants to R the price they pay for greater than most people realize.
> 
> Things are never resolved by holding them in.


:iagree:


----------



## Acabado

Extra positive thoughts Mr and Mrs Mathias way in this difficult but also hopeful times.
If you guys survive the hard challenges...

Continued healing everyone


----------



## ChangingMe

jim123 said:


> That is how you reconcile. You need to let things out. Anyone who thinks a WS gets away with everything is mistaken. For any WS who wants to R the price they pay for greater than most people realize.


Thank you for this post, Jim. Of course the wayward is the cause of their pain, but we really do experience extreme pain. There is no "getting away with" anything. At least that's how it's felt to me.


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> Thank you for this post, Jim. Of course the wayward is the cause of their pain, but we really do experience extreme pain. There is no "getting away with" anything. At least that's how it's felt to me.


My.phone.is.messed.up,space.bar.doesnt.work.
Youre.right.CM.
The.WS.in.a.lot.of.ways.does.not.get.away.with.
much.if.they.are.true.and.real,they.feel.pain.too.
BS.is.changed.forever.
Sorry.about.my.messed.up.phone...ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Think.I'll.just.stop.posting.til.the.new.phone.gets.here.
I'm.getting.a.headache.reading.my.own.post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Think.I'll.just.stop.posting.til.the.new.phone.gets.here.
> I'm.getting.a.headache.reading.my.own.post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol

Sorry, I know its wrong but I'm just enjoying this.


----------



## jim123

ChangingMe said:


> Thank you for this post, Jim. Of course the wayward is the cause of their pain, but we really do experience extreme pain. There is no "getting away with" anything. At least that's how it's felt to me.


Not all but the those with character have the toughest path.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> lol
> 
> Sorry, I know its wrong but I'm just enjoying this.


....
Got.a.free.smart.phone.on.the.way.
All.free.only.$10.bucks.a.month.for.a.butt.load.of.data
I'm.happy.and.still.getting.a.headache.from.this.
freaken.phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

calvin said:


> ....
> Got.a.free.smart.phone.on.the.way.
> All.free.only.$10.bucks.a.month.for.a.butt.load.of.data
> I'm.happy.and.still.getting.a.headache.from.this.
> freaken.phone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


----------



## Rookie4

I really love this new model Sweetie!!!!!!! She is far superior to the old model. We had a bit of an argument today. The old model would have screamed, cried, swore, and laid a mammoth guilt trip on me. The new model cried a bit, but asked if we could talk about it over coffee. NO DRAMA!! YAAAAAY!!


----------



## Rookie4

Our argument was about sex. We had just finished a marathon session, on the desk, in the library, with utensils. So afterwards, she asked me , quite nicely, even playfully, if she was better than those other women (she knew quite a few by name, which surprised me) I had slept with since our break up. 
Now most of you who have read my original post, know what she said to me on D-day, so I was a little put out that she would even ask me this question. It definitely killed my post-coital mood. So I made an admittedly sh*tty remark. I said, "better than some, worse than others". She immediately started crying and apologizing and self-abusing, which made me even angrier, as I thought she was fishing for some kind of reassurance, or a hug to make it better. We didn't speak for a while, then she came into the shop and asked if we could talk about it. We sat down, had a cup of coffee, I had a cigar, and just vegged for a bit , then we talked it out. I am so much happier that we can do this now, rather than what would have happened in our dysfunctional past, that it makes me very hopeful for the future.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rookie4 said:


> I really love this new model Sweetie!!!!!!! She is far superior to the old model. We had a bit of an argument today. The old model would have screamed, cried, swore, and laid a mammoth guilt trip on me. The new model cried a bit, but asked if we could talk about it over coffee. NO DRAMA!! YAAAAAY!!


I think this post has a speaks volumes Rookie. I feel the same way about my H. It's like I've got a new improved model of him and this is so difficult to explain to people who can't understand why we would choose to R with a WS. My H truly is a changed man. He is attentive, patient and humble. We are on the way to having the marriage that we both deserve. We now have a deeper understanding and a lot more respect for each other than I think we ever had. Hubby is 41 today. He was only 21 when we married, we made a lot of mistakes but I feel like we have been given a second chance of happiness. Slowly the wounds are healing and I don't regret having him back for a minute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

You probably don't need this, feel free to ignore - but I'm going to take your comments apart a bit at a time.




Rookie4 said:


> Our argument was about sex. We had just finished a marathon session, on the desk, in the library, with utensils. So afterwards, she asked me , quite nicely, even playfully, if she was better than those other women (she knew quite a few by name, which surprised me) I had slept with since our break up.


Aww ... that was a dangerous thing to do .... although you could possibly consider it brave, if she thought she was able to handle the answer. Thinking about those other women can't be particularly pleasant for her (as you'd be aware, of course.) That she was willing to bring them up, especially in a playful manner suggests that while she has an issue with it, she's trying to get over it.



Rookie4 said:


> Now most of you who have read my original post, know what she said to me on D-day, so I was a little put out that she would even ask me this question. It definitely killed my post-coital mood.


Yes .. and perhaps she'd lost sight of that. Comparisons probably not the way to go for her. It's possible that in her warm happy glow state, she'd forgotten it (which, honestly, would be a good thing, if you had too - but much harder for you to, I would think.)
Some women (e.g. my wife) are very competitive, and are always doing the compare thing. The only context in which she's happy to talk about my ex's are in the sense of how much better she is than them (in whatever regard, especially sexually - happily, she is the best, possibly because we've had vastly more practise together .. but I digress ..)




Rookie4 said:


> So I made an admittedly sh*tty remark. I said, "better than some, worse than others".


Was it an honest remark?
If it was honest, then I think it's probably a bit unfortunate, but I can't really argue that it wasn't a fair thing to say.
If it wasn't honest, well .... I mean, you know that what she said was calculated to hurt, but also, that it wasn't true.

So, I'm not surprised she was unhappy either way (no woman likes to be considered inferior in any way, especially by her lover.) If what you said was not true, I'm going to agree with you, it was not a good thing to say.




Rookie4 said:


> She immediately started crying and apologizing and self-abusing, which made me even angrier, as I thought she was fishing for some kind of reassurance, or a hug to make it better.


Hmmm. Is there a difference between fishing for reassurance, and honestly wanting to know that your apology is accepted?
From what you've said about her recently, I suspect she really was sorry, was horrified at herself for being so thoughtless and triggering you, more than any concern about how she actually compared.




Rookie4 said:


> We didn't speak for a while, then she came into the shop and asked if we could talk about it. We sat down, had a cup of coffee, I had a cigar, and just vegged for a bit , then we talked it out. I am so much happier that we can do this now, rather than what would have happened in our dysfunctional past, that it makes me very hopeful for the future.


And she's grown up. This is nice. I like this bit.

She's going to have to be more careful about what she says, especially around that sort of subject, to prevent triggering you accidently. But that the two of you could calm down, work it out sensibly, amicably and fruitfully, is a huge step forward.

Now then, do you have any suggestions for her about how she could become the best? If introduced carefully, at the right time, she might like that ...


----------



## calvin

Morning.phone.still.fried..ugh.
I.like.what.you.both.said.about.your.spouses.
being.new.and.improved.
I.feel.the.same.way.about.CSS.
I.think.I'm.finally.letting.go.
I've.had.enough.of.holding.on.to.this.crap.
New.phone.Tuesday...sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

rookie, "better than some, worse than others", ouch that had to sting.
But like Rags said, if it's true I can't argue with it, though I want to a little. I know how the comparing can hurt and haunt you, then again, as I am thinking about just this moment, I guess so do you. 

It's good to see that you two eventually sat down and talked it out, impressive and congrats. I am really happy for you two rookie you are in a really good place.


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Morning.phone.still.fried..ugh.
> I.like.what.you.both.said.about.your.spouses.
> being.new.and.improved.
> I.feel.the.same.way.about.CSS.
> I.think.I'm.finally.letting.go.
> I've.had.enough.of.holding.on.to.this.crap.
> New.phone.Tuesday...sorry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is really unfortunate that Calvin has been replaced by a robot version. The robot Calvin sounds like something out of Star Trek.


----------



## Rookie4

Guys, if the truth were to be known, I was about as mad at myself for saying it, as I was at her, for triggering me , so that I did say it. If that makes any sense. It was a hurtful remark and I wanted to hurt her. Like she hurt me , when she said those things 2 1/2 years ago. I feel stupid for being so petty. This just goes to show you how long these kind of triggers last. I am so glad that we were able to talk about it, and I could show her that it was not meant. Hoist on my own petard.


----------



## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> Our argument was about sex. We had just finished a marathon session, on the desk, in the library, with utensils. So afterwards, she asked me , quite nicely, even playfully, if she was better than those other women (she knew quite a few by name, which surprised me) I had slept with since our break up.
> Now most of you who have read my original post, know what she said to me on D-day, so I was a little put out that she would even ask me this question. It definitely killed my post-coital mood. So I made an admittedly sh*tty remark. I said, "better than some, worse than others". She immediately started crying and apologizing and self-abusing, which made me even angrier, as I thought she was fishing for some kind of reassurance, or a hug to make it better. We didn't speak for a while, then she came into the shop and asked if we could talk about it. We sat down, had a cup of coffee, I had a cigar, and just vegged for a bit , then we talked it out. I am so much happier that we can do this now, rather than what would have happened in our dysfunctional past, that it makes me very hopeful for the future.


At first I thought, man... he's mean. But thinking about it, were you supposed to lie? No, I have come up with this life lesson instead: Never ever ask something if you're not prepared for the truth.


----------



## Rags

Continuing my theme from another thread (on forgiveness) - when you no longer feel an urge to hurt them for what they've done, then I believe that's forgiveness.

Still got a ways to go (not surprised) - but so much progress, I'm happy for you both.

Now, I suggest a date, even though it's a weeknight - something fun, followed by back to the bedroom for some extra practice, just to make sure you're both the best you could ever get.
(yeah, much of my advice comes down to that .. I'm a strong believer in it ...)


----------



## margrace

B1 said:


> ...We could trade hurt stories for days and never really know who hurt worse. ...I still have work to do on me, on us but it's all good work and I can't wait to see where we go from here.
> 
> Boy, I did not mean for this to go like this...but here it is. My Sunday more rambling is complete now, I need coffee, later.


B1, just.... *thank you*


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Guys, if the truth were to be known, I was about as mad at myself for saying it, as I was at her, for triggering me , so that I did say it. If that makes any sense. It was a hurtful remark and I wanted to hurt her. Like she hurt me , when she said those things 2 1/2 years ago. I feel stupid for being so petty. This just goes to show you how long these kind of triggers last. I am so glad that we were able to talk about it, and I could show her that it was not meant. Hoist on my own petard.


And may I suggest that you did successfully hurt her the same as she hurt you. I would also suggest that since you are even the hurting can end and you can both revel in each other's company.


----------



## Acabado

It was coming rookie. She has been having those fears since she learned you started dating. She has been refraining herself for a while untill she couldn't anymore. I believe I already talked about it in your first thread. The pusnishment is happening for almost two years already. Ask her. If she's honest she will tell you how deep is this cut on her side. 
Is she fishing for reasurement? No sh1t.
Give her. Tons of it. Tell her she doesn't need to, you don't compare, you are completely focused in her, she's wonderful, fantastic, she doesn't need to mold herself in a porn star to conjure any ghost, you want to love her fully, enjoy each other and have all the fun you guys can get. You have all you want: her.


----------



## EI

There are a lot of different posters on TAM. After you've been here for a while, you almost don't need to read the poster's response to a given situation because you already know exactly what they're going to say. 

But, there are a few posters here who do not give the same canned response to every story. They weigh each one individually and then give excellent advice that is specifically tailored to that situation. 

Acabado is one of those posters. I love reading his responses. I have never read one that I wasn't thoroughly impressed with (except for his responses to me in my original "fog laden" thread! ) Of course, that's a different story. 

Rookie, Acabado just gave you some of the best advice that anyone could have ever possibly given you regarding Sweetie. I wish I had said it, myself, but there is no way that I could have said it so eloquently...... curse words and all...... and it wouldn't have had the same effect coming from me as it did from him because he has been in your shoes.

Acabado, thank you for being a part of he "R" thread and continuing to share your wisdom with us. I, honestly, hope that when B1 and I are 3 years past this time in our life, that we won't feel the need to be a part of TAM, anymore. I would think that the triggers, alone, would keep those who have reconciled away after a while. But, if people like you weren't here, then people like me wouldn't have real examples to inspire us and get us through the going through stages.

Again, thank you!


----------



## CantSitStill

That's just it EI..I am so thankful for those that stick around TAM to help others even if they don't need the help from TAM. I'm not sure I'll ever leave altho when I get stomped on I always say I'm leaving, I guess a day off every now and then is good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

I didn't know where or who else to ask this but didn't there used to be a page counter at the top and bottom of each page or am I going crazy and/or senile?

Seasalt


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> It was coming rookie. She has been having those fears since she learned you started dating. She has been refraining herself for a while untill she couldn't anymore. I believe I already talked about it in your first thread. The pusnishment is happening for almost two years already. Ask her. If she's honest she will tell you how deep is this cut on her side.
> Is she fishing for reasurement? No sh1t.
> Give her. Tons of it. Tell her she doesn't need to, you don't compare, you are completely focused in her, she's wonderful, fantastic, she doesn't need to mold herself in a porn star to conjure any ghost, you want to love her fully, enjoy each other and have all the fun you guys can get. You have all you want: her.


Here's the thing, Acabado. I truly don't feel that much resentment towards her about the affair, as I used to. I really feel that I'm "over the hump" with regards to what happened , in the past. My first reaction , after I said it, was WTF? Why did I say that? Without getting into details, she is wicked hot. When we talked about it later, we came up with two things. 1. I sometimes still think she is the "old", Sweetie, and expect her to be argumentative and dramatic, so I reacted like I would have with the "old" Sweetie. If that makes any sense. 2. It actually makes me feel a lot better about those awful things she said about me on D-day. Now I can understand how and why things might be said in the heat of the moment, that aren't meant and would not have been said in any other context.
The most important thing is how WE dealt with it. Every issue we face and deal with, and every time she proves her love , I trust her more and more. My "new" Sweetie is the most wonderful Lady I have ever known, and I'm lucky to have her in my life.
BTW, after our spat, WE had second helpings of the sex and I showed her abundantly, how much I love her. She said I f**ked her stupid, and I also sent her a big bunch of flowers, which she didn't get , because she was bringing me lunch, at the same time. It is amazing that we think about each other, almost as if there was a connection, or something.:scratchhead:


----------



## CantSitStill

That's so great Rookie  It's so cool that you both have changed so much, your relationship is so different and better. A great example of how couples should treat eachother 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I just remembered the day you came here and said "my ex wife wants to try again and I have a gf..what do I do?" Now look at you..wow
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Here's the thing, Acabado. I truly don't feel that much resentment towards her about the affair, as I used to. I really feel that I'm "over the hump" with regards to what happened , in the past. My first reaction , after I said it, was WTF? Why did I say that? Without getting into details, she is wicked hot. When we talked about it later, we came up with two things. 1. I sometimes still think she is the "old", Sweetie, and expect her to be argumentative and dramatic, so I reacted like I would have with the "old" Sweetie. If that makes any sense. 2. It actually makes me feel a lot better about those awful things she said about me on D-day. Now I can understand how and why things might be said in the heat of the moment, that aren't meant and would not have been said in any other context.
> The most important thing is how WE dealt with it. Every issue we face and deal with, and every time she proves her love , I trust her more and more. My "new" Sweetie is the most wonderful Lady I have ever known, and I'm lucky to have her in my life.
> BTW, after our spat, WE had second helpings of the sex and I showed her abundantly, how much I love her. *She said I f**ked her stupid*, and I also sent her a big bunch of flowers, which she didn't get , because she was bringing me lunch, at the same time. It is amazing that we think about each other, almost as if there was a connection, or something.:scratchhead:


I'm stealing that, just so you know.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Alright Rookie,

I have sat quietly, waiting for someone to weigh in and provide the tough love you need to hear. But no one wants to make eye contact with the 800 lb gorilla in the room. So it looks like I have to be the bad guy. 



Rookie4 said:


> Our argument was about sex. We had just finished a marathon session, on the desk, in the library, with utensils.


Seriously? _Utensils?_ Items that you prepare meals with? Perhaps even for your guests? Come on man! 

You know that listening to your recent escapades now has me afraid to eat at other people's houses, ride in their cars or sit on their furniture?! I am slowly turning into a hermit thanks to you and your constant stories about making the sex. 

Can't you just do it in the bedroom, at night, in the dark, under the sheets in total silence like the rest of us . . . . .

In all seriousness, congrats on working through another potential issue and realizing how new and improved you are as individuals and as a couple. Passion is a very good thing, but passionate people can sometimes react as such, in a bad way (you being upset with her question, so striking back etc). But you guys handled it well, which is awesome. Being able to step back and calmly deal with things means you can enjoy the good side of passion and manage any potential negatives as well. Way to go!


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> I'm stealing that, just so you know.


Actually, Bfree, it's a pretty common expression. We learned it from, (of all people) our older daughter. She was talking about a couple at college who "f8cked each other stupid", and it tickled us .


----------



## Rags

Not sure if this will work ....


Ok - didn't work - not sure how to share an album


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, Bfree, it's a pretty common expression. We learned it from, (of all people) our older daughter. She was talking about a couple at college who "f8cked each other stupid", and it tickled us .


Well then tell your older daughter I'm stealing it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin always tells me "Love you crazy" I love it and love that song..by Van Morrison Crazy Love
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

we had our MC session today, where WH was to come clean on the real time line of his A. 

we sat down, and he took something out of his pocket. he had typed it out, and he read it.

i think that he basically did it. i think we will probably fill in some details as we go forward, but i think that he came through.

y'all, i feel so many different things at once. i feel some relief, and hopeful... also kind of surreal... empty-ish.... sad.... 

he said, "at one time i was thinking of this as something that i had to do, and then it would be done. but now i realize that it's only the beginning of what i have to do."

i find myself thinking back to those dates, 2009, trying to imagine that year and how i didn't know.

i'm seeing how painful this is for WH and i'm feeling for him as well.

he said, thank you for not giving up.


----------



## EI

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Can't you just do it in the bedroom, at night, in the dark, under the sheets in total silence like the rest of us . . . . .


:scratchhead:

Who does that? Do you guys ALL do that?  _ "in the bedroom, at night, in the dark, under the sheets in total silence like the rest of us. . . . ."_

*B1, we are NOT supposed to be doing it on the couch, in the bath tub, on the floor, in the garage and over the trunk of the car???? I can't believe this. You've been totally lying to me....... 
   *

I feel so...............


----------



## CantSitStill

margrace said:


> we had our MC session today, where WH was to come clean on the real time line of his A.
> 
> we sat down, and he took something out of his pocket. he had typed it out, and he read it.
> 
> i think that he basically did it. i think we will probably fill in some details as we go forward, but i think that he came through.
> 
> y'all, i feel so many different things at once. i feel some relief, and hopeful... also kind of surreal... empty-ish.... sad....
> 
> he said, "at one time i was thinking of this as something that i had to do, and then it would be done. but now i realize that it's only the beginning of what i have to do."
> 
> i find myself thinking back to those dates, 2009, trying to imagine that year and how i didn't know.
> 
> i'm seeing how painful this is for WH and i'm feeling for him as well.
> 
> he said, thank you for not giving up.


Calvin and I had a MC where we looked eachother in the eyes while he said every way he felt betrayed by me, then I had 15 min to talk and apologise and we both had tears but man oh man it helped us heal and feel closer to do that honest hurtful talk..it felt like the therapist wasn't even there. It was hard as hell but soo healing. I bet you are getting what I'm saying,, I hope you are. The real hurt yet love pours out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

margrace said:


> i'm seeing how painful this is for WH and i'm feeling for him as well.
> he said, thank you for not giving up.


You are such a generous soul.
I'm sorrry friend you have now to decode again the past. Take your time to digest it. It's hard. Give your self permission to grieve.
Be kind to you.
I think the real hope here is he seems to get it's not the end at all but a necessary step to start the healing.

Hang tough my friend.


----------



## EI

Oh margrace, you are going to be filled with so many different emotions right now. You will vacillate from relief to sadness, to anger, to rage, to hope, to hopelessness, and at least a dozen other emotions..... and back again..... over and over. You'll likely feel emotions that you never even knew existed. This is what you have needed for so long to begin to heal and move forward whether it is with your husband or not. 

In the midst of all of this it will reopen some very painful emotions for your husband, as well. He will experience anger, fear, vulnerability, guilt, shame, perhaps some relief at times, he will become defensive and defiant, at times. There will be times when you both look back at your marriage pre-A and point the blame at each other for things real and imagined. This is ALL a normal and necessary part of healing. You cannot go around this stuff...... You have to dive in and wade through it. It isn't an overnight process.

It's so hard, it's just unreal. I can tell you that it took a lot of courage and vulnerability for your husband to prepare and pull out that list and read it to you. If he wasn't invested in trying to reconcile he could not...... would not...... be willing to put himself through it. I really believe that.

You listening while he read it to you...... Well, I can't imagine..... But B1 can...... Please feel free to ask him anything that you think might help you navigate through this. He would be more than willing to tell you what did and didn't work for him... I know that everyone on the "R" thread will be here to help support you through out this emotional roller coaster.

Take care,
EI


----------



## old timer

margrace, 
I know this had to be excruciatingly painful and so very difficult for him. 

His having previously typed everything shows he put in much effort. 

I can only imagine how tear-stained that paper could have been. 

I do believe his thanking you was absolutely sincere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> we had our MC session today, where WH was to come clean on the real time line of his A.
> 
> we sat down, and he took something out of his pocket. he had typed it out, and he read it.
> 
> i think that he basically did it. i think we will probably fill in some details as we go forward, but i think that he came through.
> 
> y'all, i feel so many different things at once. i feel some relief, and hopeful... also kind of surreal... empty-ish.... sad....
> 
> he said, "at one time i was thinking of this as something that i had to do, and then it would be done. but now i realize that it's only the beginning of what i have to do."
> 
> i find myself thinking back to those dates, 2009, trying to imagine that year and how i didn't know.
> 
> i'm seeing how painful this is for WH and i'm feeling for him as well.
> 
> he said, thank you for not giving up.


This is going to get hard margrace, as you get those details it will hurt, you will get some relief because the puzzle is coming together, but as it comes together, you will begin to see truths that flat out hurt. You will see this man you love hurting you as if it is right now. The pain will be fresh and raw as he gives you those details you so want and need to hear. 

Yes, it will be hard on him too but it will be harder on you. I don't envy where you are right now, god getting those details hurts so bad, I have wiped tears away writing this just remembering those times when EI was filling me in on what she did, how she did it and more. The raw intense pain this brings can only be known by a bs. Sorry margrace, sorry you have to endure this.

This, getting the details, can be all consuming for a while. It can eat you alive, try not to let it. I hope you get through this quickly and can focus on moving forward soon.

In the long run though it can definitely lead to a happy, healthy marriage. The more he opens up, through the hurt and through the pain you will oddly grow closer, you will lean on him for comfort and support, and he will do the same. This only works for two people who are in love, have compassion, understanding and are willing to put forth the effort to making it work out. I think you two are in that category.

Take care margrace, be strong, we are a post or pm away if you need us.


----------



## SomedayDig

margrace said:


> we had our MC session today, where WH was to come clean on the real time line of his A.
> 
> we sat down, and he took something out of his pocket. he had typed it out, and he read it.
> 
> i think that he basically did it. i think we will probably fill in some details as we go forward, but i think that he came through.
> 
> y'all, i feel so many different things at once. i feel some relief, and hopeful... also kind of surreal... empty-ish.... sad....
> 
> he said, "at one time i was thinking of this as something that i had to do, and then it would be done. but now i realize that it's only the beginning of what i have to do."
> 
> *i find myself thinking back to those dates, 2009, trying to imagine that year and how i didn't know.*
> 
> i'm seeing how painful this is for WH and i'm feeling for him as well.
> 
> he said, thank you for not giving up.


Regarding the bolded...goodness gracious do I totally understand. Regret had her 5 year long affair and I find myself at times trying to recall those years and how in the F did I not know what was going on.

I'm so sorry for you and your husband and anyone else who has to go through this darkness to find the light.

But it is there.

Peace.


----------



## LoveDr

To me reconciliation simply means that your finally able to tolerate an ex. You've excepted him/her as she is and you move forward in life. It doesn't mean that you guys are friends. Too many people get this wrong and even more people don't realize wether or not reconciliation is best for their relationship. "Mysticwomen" discusses this in great detail here Should You Get Back Together with Your Ex? - Keen.com


----------



## Rookie4

LoveDr said:


> To me reconciliation simply means that your finally able to tolerate an ex. You've excepted him/her as she is and you move forward in life. It doesn't mean that you guys are friends. Too many people get this wrong and even more people don't realize wether or not reconciliation is best for their relationship. "Mysticwomen" discusses this in great detail here Should You Get Back Together with Your Ex? - Keen.com


I have gotten back with my EX, and quite successfully, I might add. There are no hard and fast rules governing R, any more than there are hard and fast rules governing marriage. Each is an entity of it's own. Yes, some aspects are similar, but the whole is very different, marriage to marriage, and reconciliation to reconciliation.


----------



## Rookie4

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Alright Rookie,
> 
> I have sat quietly, waiting for someone to weigh in and provide the tough love you need to hear. But no one wants to make eye contact with the 800 lb gorilla in the room. So it looks like I have to be the bad guy.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? _Utensils?_ Items that you prepare meals with? Perhaps even for your guests? Come on man!
> 
> You know that listening to your recent escapades now has me afraid to eat at other people's houses, ride in their cars or sit on their furniture?! I am slowly turning into a hermit thanks to you and your constant stories about making the sex.
> 
> Can't you just do it in the bedroom, at night, in the dark, under the sheets in total silence like the rest of us . . . . .
> 
> In all seriousness, congrats on working through another potential issue and realizing how new and improved you are as individuals and as a couple. Passion is a very good thing, but passionate people can sometimes react as such, in a bad way (you being upset with her question, so striking back etc). But you guys handled it well, which is awesome. Being able to step back and calmly deal with things means you can enjoy the good side of passion and manage any potential negatives as well. Way to go!


NHTMR, When I was typing this I had a brain fart and could not, for the life of me, remember the right word for sexual aids. I thought accoutrements, accompanyments, paraphanalia (?), implements, but none of those felt right, so I went with utensils. Why, IDK, but I suspect it had something to do with eating, since that is part of what we were doing at the time.


----------



## daisygirl 41

LoveDr said:


> To me reconciliation simply means that your finally able to tolerate an ex. You've excepted him/her as she is and you move forward in life. It doesn't mean that you guys are friends. Too many people get this wrong and even more people don't realize wether or not reconciliation is best for their relationship. "Mysticwomen" discusses this in great detail here Should You Get Back Together with Your Ex? - Keen.com


Sorry but you're wrong. My H is my best friend. Always has been. Always will be. But like most friends he has let me down a few times, but as true friends we have found the strength to forgive and move forward. When H moved out, I grieved his friendship and companionship, and he is now proving his worthiness of my friendship, and for many of us here of course we are not talking about exes, or long lost loves, we are talking a out people we have spent most of our adult lives with and have children with, not exes we split with years ago.

Margrace. Be kind to yourself. Take your time coming to terms with what you have found out. You probably feel like you have gone backwards and hurting again, but in my experience these wounds do heal quicker than the initial Dday and you will be back on track soon.
Sending you a hug (((((())))) and lots of positive vibes. Hang on in there honey.
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Margrace, I have wanted to comment on your posts for some time now, but refrained from doing so, because I don't feel qualified to say anything. Your situation is much different. But I do want you to know that I feel for you and your situation, and wish you all of the best. You are a good person.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Who does that? Do you guys ALL do that?  _ "in the bedroom, at night, in the dark, under the sheets in total silence like the rest of us. . . . ."_
> 
> *B1, we are NOT supposed to be doing it on the couch, in the bath tub, on the floor, in the garage and over the trunk of the car???? I can't believe this. You've been totally lying to me.......
> *
> 
> I feel so...............


WE have a new rule in the Rookie household. Anywhere I can get my pants down and her skirt up is a good place to f**K. This could, possibly, lead to legal complications, but my cousin is a lawyer and he needs the work.


----------



## StarGazer101

margrace said:


> we had our MC session today, where WH was to come clean on the real time line of his A.
> 
> we sat down, and he took something out of his pocket. he had typed it out, and he read it.
> 
> i think that he basically did it. i think we will probably fill in some details as we go forward, but i think that he came through.
> 
> y'all, i feel so many different things at once. i feel some relief, and hopeful... also kind of surreal... empty-ish.... sad....
> 
> *he said, "at one time i was thinking of this as something that i had to do, and then it would be done. but now i realize that it's only the beginning of what i have to do*."
> 
> i find myself thinking back to those dates, 2009, trying to imagine that year and how i didn't know.
> 
> i'm seeing how painful this is for WH and i'm feeling for him as well.
> 
> *he said, thank you for not giving up*.


margrace - it really sounds to me like he _gets it_ now. As painful as these times will be; I think you can allow yourself to look forward to a time of healing and building a strong new marriage together. He is a very lucky man. You humble me.


----------



## margrace

what would i do without my R community? no, for real -- what would i do?

thank you so much for your responses, everyone. thanks for your support and also for underlining that i need to just go through this. 

it's the mixture of emotions that is confusing. before, when i felt terrible or hopeless, it was pretty much purely terrible or hopeless. now it's not hopeless and it's not purely terrible... but i do feel those hurts re-opening, i am seeing/imagining pictures (not that crap again), i am feeling paranoid and suspicious again (exhausting).

i feel like a box of things that are all flying around in different directions. i bet he does, too.

thank you for previewing some of the feelings and reactions that both of us are likely to go through along the way. that really really helps.

how often do you/did you talk about it? and does that/did that seem like the right amount to both of you?

i don't really know what to do with myself. but i guess i don't need to know right now....?


----------



## cpacan

margrace said:


> what would i do without my R community? no, for real -- what would i do?
> 
> thank you so much for your responses, everyone. thanks for your support and also for underlining that i need to just go through this.
> 
> it's the mixture of emotions that is confusing. before, when i felt terrible or hopeless, it was pretty much purely terrible or hopeless. now it's not hopeless and it's not purely terrible... but i do feel those hurts re-opening, i am seeing/imagining pictures (not that crap again), i am feeling paranoid and suspicious again (exhausting).
> 
> i feel like a box of things that are all flying around in different directions. i bet he does, too.
> 
> thank you for previewing some of the feelings and reactions that both of us are likely to go through along the way. that really really helps.
> 
> how often do you/did you talk about it? and does that/did that seem like the right amount to both of you?
> 
> i don't really know what to do with myself. but i guess i don't need to know right now....?


Margrace, you're an amazing person - I don't even know where you find the strength to do what you do, and see things the way you do, even when everything seems hopeless.

I'm happy to see, that you finally got the ball rolling, and I hope for the best for you. From my point of view, you should listen carefully to your gut feeling TODAY - what does it tell you?. If it tells you "We can do this", then move along and do what feels right. And tomorrow, you listen to your gut feeling again. One day at a time. What is the best thing for me to do today?

One thing about your husbands revelations; be carefull not to move his story from the past to the present IYKWIM. This way you will be able to save some energy to solve present issues instead, and you might just need that, because I agree with the others - still some rough wheather ahead of you.

Remember to take good care of you.


----------



## B1

margrace, on how often to talk?

For me it was constant for months, on and off throughout the day. It would exhaust EI. Usually I would come home from work, where we had talked about it too via email and texting. I would eat something then we would spend hours talking. Getting the details was only part of it, the rest was rebuilding and coping with the news I got.

So, I like what CPA said, go with your gut, do try and let your husband have a breather from time to time also, EI would get flat wore out and eventually get defensive, angry but that was only because she was exhausted and tired. When EI is tired, I have learned, time to settle down a bit. Let her rest and then she's up for it again no problem.

Use other means of communications too like email and texting. sometimes you will actually get more from that. Plus, you have the added bonus of being able to got back and re-read things. This always helped me when EI woud email something that really helped me, I could go back and re-read it at a bad time.

Right now you want answers, and you are getting them. Just buckle up and hold on while they come at you. It's ok to not know what to do with yourself, that's normal, at least it was for me. I would sometimes just sit on the couch doing nothing, paralyzed almost, numb. This does that to you. He will give you info and you may not even process it, really process it until the next day. You will "Play back" things in your head that he says over and over, picking them apart for even more details. So, what happens is this, you do a lot of sitting around doing nothing but processing all this hurtful information, trying to make sense of it, trying to figure it out, peace it together. That's when you get that, I don't know what to do with myself feeling. This info and pain it brings does paralyze you in many ways. This WILL pass margrace.

Try not to drive yourself crazy with this, EI was good about giving me everything when I asked and many times even when I didn't ask. Take what you get and when you have had enough, you will know when you have, then back off and take a break. 

If he has trouble ask him to write more down, email, etc. 

Good luck and hang in there you are an amazing person margrace, you have shown such patience, your husband is a lucky man.


----------



## pidge70

It's nice to read that other people can get past this and make the relationship better. That's just not happening here.


----------



## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> It's nice to read that other people can get past this and make the relationship better. That's just not happening here.


I'm really sorry to hear things aren't going well for you two : ( I sure hope you don't give up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Rough night last night for me. it's been a while since I have cried hard. Remembering those details really hurts. I feel for margrace, it's going to hurt and hurt bad for a while. But that's the path you HAVE to take to heal, that's the right road to be on, you cannot go around this, bypass it, skip it, you MUST drive right through it, head on.

The most painful journey is, to me, the correct journey for R. 

I don't agree with what a lot of counselors say, to just skip it, forget the past and start with today and move forward. Sure that works after you have faced the past, after you have dealt with those blows. After you have pieced together all the you can and want to. I could NOT move forward ignoring the past, ignoring what EI did.

In saying that, there does come a time when you need to tear that rear view mirror off and ditch it and move ahead, look forward with maybe a glance or two backward here and there.


Those details, man the raw pain, the hurt, it's intensity..whoa, still gets to me sometimes. It's definitely better, far better and I am so grateful for that. Time and love do heal you. Understanding and compassion assist greatly in the healing also. 

Knowing what you want helps too.

For me, I want happiness, to love, and to be loved and I feel certain I can have all that with EI and so far so good


----------



## B1

pidge70 said:


> It's nice to read that other people can get past this and make the relationship better. That's just not happening here.


Oh no Pidge, sorry to hear that. Anything you care to share about what's going on?


----------



## daisygirl 41

pidge70 said:


> It's nice to read that other people can get past this and make the relationship better. That's just not happening here.


So sorry to hear that Pidge.
Hang on in there xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

B1 said:


> Oh no Pidge, sorry to hear that. Anything you care to share about what's going on?


Thank you but, no. As soon as he reads what I posted I'll hear about it. No need for he and I to have a verbal sparring over the internet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> Thank you but, no. As soon as he reads what I posted I'll hear about it. No need for he and I to have a verbal sparring over the internet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I really sorry, Pidge.... I wish that things were better for both of you. I sent you a pm.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Thank you but, no. As soon as he reads what I posted I'll hear about it. No need for he and I to have a verbal sparring over the internet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Damn.pidge....Oh.God
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

margrace said:


> we had our MC session today, where WH was to come clean on the real time line of his A.
> 
> we sat down, and he took something out of his pocket. he had typed it out, and he read it.
> 
> i think that he basically did it. i think we will probably fill in some details as we go forward, but i think that he came through.
> 
> y'all, i feel so many different things at once. i feel some relief, and hopeful... also kind of surreal... empty-ish.... sad....
> 
> he said, "at one time i was thinking of this as something that i had to do, and then it would be done. but now i realize that it's only the beginning of what i have to do."
> 
> i find myself thinking back to those dates, 2009, trying to imagine that year and how i didn't know.
> 
> i'm seeing how painful this is for WH and i'm feeling for him as well.
> 
> he said, thank you for not giving up.


Think of this like a wound. You know you need to clean it out and disinfect it in order for it to finally heal. Yeah, its going to hurt but in a short time its going to feel so much better and when it finally heals you will forget its even there (most of the time).


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thinking of all the reconcilers today...

*Margrace*, I'm so glad your R journey is finally truly moving forward, even if the pain feels like a setback. I honestly believe that even if a R doesn't succeed, the BS will be stronger and further in their journey if the WS makes an effort to help them heal. Matt and I have been talking about resentment lately, and his past struggles with that. I think the fact that we can even discuss it together is a positive thing for his emotional healing. My thoughts are with you as your wounds ache, but at least you truly know what they consist of now and can face that.

*Pidge*, I'm so sorry you and Joe are struggling. You've both come a long way in your journey, but you must still be facing some painful issues. I hope you can communicate about them, and really both look for the right solution for each other and yourselves. I wonder some days if it's truly "easier" to be apart. As the WS, I believe that answer is no for me, but I do have grave concerns about what is best for Matt. And I continually come to the opinion that there is no such thing as "easier" when dealing with this. Both sides of the journey face incredibly difficult obstacles and pain. And I think both sides have the potential for positive outcomes for each of us, depending on how we ultimately face those obstacles and pain. Whatever the path may be that you and Joe choose, I hope you both find peace at the end.

*Rookie*, I'm glad you are enjoying your renewed relationship with Sweetie so much. Stay hydrated. 

*Calvin and CSS*, I love that your thread has been pretty "average" lately. It's wonderfully reassuring to watch the two of you just live life each day and share humor with each other and the other TAMers.

Sending positive thoughts to everyone else here as well. One foot in front of the other and we will all end up somewhere!


----------



## calvin

Thanks.Mrs.M
It.still.stings.sometimes.but.I'm.tired.of.holding.
on.to.it
Average.is.good!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

pidge70 said:


> It's nice to read that other people can get past this and make the relationship better. That's just not happening here.


Not here either, unfortunately


----------



## EI

old timer said:


> Not here either, unfortunately


Sorry, OT.... I can tell you that with the added grief from the recent loss of her mother, your wife is going to be on an even bigger emotional roller coaster than she already was. I don't think that anyone, at any age, is ever really "ready" to lose their "Mom." I was 35 when my mom died and I wasn't ready. It's been 13 years and I'm still not "ready."

Add that to the fact that she is coming to terms with your 5 year A, and now one of her own, and I can't even begin to imagine what must be going on inside of her mind. 

If you have any desire to try to reconcile your marriage then I am going to tell you that patience and compassion will be your friends.


----------



## calvin

Got.my.new.phone.so.you.guys.wont.have.to.put
up.with.this.crap.much.longer.

I.really.think.I'm.at.a.place.where.I'm.letting.go.of.all.the.poisen.in.me,cant.hold.this.in.forever
There.isnt.anyone.out.there.for.me.but.CSS,dont
want.anyone.else.

pidge,I.really.pray.you.and.joe.can.get.through
this.and.make.it.work,I.feel.so.bad.for.both.of.
you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

EI said:


> Sorry, OT.... I can tell you that with the added grief from the recent loss of her mother, your wife is going to be on an even bigger emotional roller coaster than she already was. I don't think that anyone, at any age, is ever really "ready" to lose their "Mom." I was 35 when my mom died and I wasn't ready. It's been 13 years and I'm still not "ready."
> 
> Add that to the fact that she is coming to terms with your 5 year A, and now one of her own, and I can't even begin to imagine what must be going on inside of her mind.
> 
> If you have any desire to try to reconcile your marriage then I am going to tell you that patience and compassion will be your friends.


Duly noted, EI.

I am definitely still open to R. However, I am not dwelling on it or wallowing in self pity. I've made some extremely bad choices. So has she (her A is over 2 yrs now). I don't see a monastic lifestyle in my future and am intent on a happy, fulfilling life with or without her.

We both admittedly still love each other. I still consider her a very good friend (I know she doesn't feel that way - but WTH - I do). I can't say she's my best friend, because I wouldn't feel comfortable confiding in her now. If my feelings of friendship can survive our impending division of marital assets/liabilities - who knows what will happen down the road. 

I am cursed with a very short attention span, however. No movement toward center from her will make it hard for me to hold out for R for a protracted period. I held out for 2 years after my first D, but there were young children involved - and I was nearly 30 yrs younger.

Scoff if you like, but I truly want her to be happy. She is obviously not happy being married to me. So - here we are - two middle-aged people moving toward our next chapter in life.

We're both healthy and reasonably attractive, so I think our futures are bright - alone, with each other, or with someone else. "R" is not one-dimensional, imo.

OT is doing fine.


----------



## ChangingMe

Hello TAMily. 

Margrace, I wish I was close enough to give you a big hug. I can imagine what it was like sitting in that counseling session, and it gave me flashbacks of handing my timeline to DD over our dinner table way back in October. It still makes my heart pound and eyes fill when I think about it. I don't know if I have specifically mentioned it before, but I have such respect for you at your willingness to even attempt to recognize the pain and struggle your husband is going through as well. He doesn't deserve that -none of us WS do -but we do hurt, and it is really hard to admit to the ugliness of what we've done and the shameful people we have become. The fact that you can see that and even have some empathy speaks -or screams- volumes about your level of character. I pray this is a time of healing for you both and for your marriage. 

Pidge, I am sorry to hear that things are rough right now with Joe. I hope the tide turns and they improve soon. 

Rookie. Rookie. Rookie. I don't know to blush or take notes. So I think I'll do both. 

OT, I am glad you are in a good space. You sound hopeful for your future, and that's fantastic. 

Calvin, I gotta admit that I'm happy about the new phone. Your posts have been hurting my eyes and brain. 

B1 and EI, I'm sorry about the rough night. Those are hard. Sometimes though, it seems like after a lot of tears, I do feel sort of cleaned out and in a better space. I had a terribly difficult IC session yesterday and had to return to work with basically no eye makeup left, but it was cathartic. You gotta get that crap out so it doesn't fester. Bfree is right about cleaning the wound. It hurts, but it's necessary. 

Dig, thinking of you today as you get through the 1 year mark.

Take care, friends.


----------



## calvin

Me.too.CM,hope.you.and.DD.are.doing.well
be.using.new.phone.in.a.couple.hours
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Aint this a *****,space bar is working now.
Guess it took that damn long for it to dry out.
Still have to push down hard on it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> Aint this a *****,space bar is working now.
> Guess it took that damn long for it to dry out.
> Still have to push down hard on it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:

This made me laugh. OF COURSE it starts working just as you're charging your new one. 

Just like I bought new shoes for my girl the other day, because I searched everywhere for 4 days and could only find one of her sneakers. Walk into her last night, and both of the old ones were there on the floor.


----------



## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> Me.too.CM,hope.you.and.DD.are.doing.well
> be.using.new.phone.in.a.couple.hours
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Calvin. We seem to be doing ok. Not great, not bad, just moving along. 

DD came to my board meeting today and took pictures, since a company presented us with a giant check for a grant I got us. It meant a lot to me that he drove up there and took pics -he offered to do it, I hadn't even asked him. It was really fun for him to 'see me in action.' I am pretty much the one talking at the board meeting, and this was a really good one, since I got us a big donation. 

About to leave work early, since DD has IC in an hour and I need to be home with the kids. I think this may be his last session; he said last time that it has almost started being a trigger and he dreads going. I can't imagine stopping mine, but it's his prerogative. He has the next 2 days off work and is going to fly for 2 hours each day, so hopefully those will be good days for him.


----------



## CantSitStill

Aint it a b*tch when your kid leaves for the denist so you have the house all to yourselves and so you get naked and your daughter calls from the dental office to say we aren't covered...so I get dressed and call her while calvin calls the insurance and we give the dentist the right number..so we finally did get naked again LOL I didn't answer the phone but had a feeling it was the dentist office. Oh the joys of being a parent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Weeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Yahooooooo!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Yahooooooo!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank goodness! LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

love snow!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Being the nice guy I am,I'm only charging people
$75 bucks to pull them out.
They're sandbaging my fun ):-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

He went joy riding where the roads aren't plowed yet..Yes he loves the snow 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

It was about this time last year she texted to say her union meeting was just about over and would be on the road shortly...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

That was then this is now. Sucks but what's done is done. What matters is the love she is showing you now. Our counselor asked a question to calvin.. she said something about him feeling mad at me has to somehow be giving him some sort of short term pleasure. She asked "what is it that you are getting out of it?" He admitted, he wants me to feel his pain. I understand that and I wish there was something I could do about it. All of this R stuff just gets so crazy and drives us crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Sometimes I'm afraid if I'm not feeling it, I will forget it and then my pain was for "nothing".

Honest as I can be right there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thinking of you and Regret tonight, Dig. I know it's scary to feel like if we heal/move past the pain it will be forgotten and then the risk of a repeat is there again. But I don't think you will forget. It's okay not to pick at that healing wound. Focus on making tonight great for you. Let that scar be just that... A scar from the past, not something fresh and raw. She remembers as do you. But you don't have to let it continue to fester.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

SomedayDig said:


> Sometimes I'm afraid if I'm not feeling it, I will forget it and then my pain was for "nothing".
> 
> Honest as I can be right there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yeah as confusing as that sounds I really do get it. I think BS' are afraid to get too comfortable because of that fear that the WS is doing something wrong again. It's a rough thing to deal with. Try to make a good memory. Do something different together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

SomedayDig said:


> Sometimes I'm afraid if I'm not feeling it, I will forget it and then my pain was for "nothing".
> 
> Honest as I can be right there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I read this on my phone and felt the need to log on and comment. I think this is a normal fear for BSs. At least it is something that DD has alluded to as well, though more that if he lets himself heal, then I will forget and perhaps allow myself to hurt him again. 

I will share a little from IC yesterday. I've been mulling it over in my head, and I planned on writing in depth about it in the FWW group, but maybe I'll just share here. I am having a terrible time lately coming to terms with who I am, how it is that I did what I did, how I could hurt people that I claim to love more than anything. Everything I did throughout my EA/PA goes against all I want to believe about myself -namely that I am a good wife, mother, daughter, friend, Christian, counselor, and any other noun I define myself by. Allowing myself to see the depths of my shame, selfishness, and gross depravity is quite honestly knocking me off my feet and waking me up at night. 

I absolutely hate that those aspects exist within myself. It devastates me. I hate it, I'm embarrassed and ashamed, and it makes me feel unworthy to be in a relationship with anyone. I asked my IC yesterday how I can remove the deceitful, cheating part of myself from me, and she said I can't. Which is again, absolutely devastating. I'm crying as I type this. She said what I have to do is recognize that that part of me exists, and to never allow her control again. There are a lot of things I can do to ensure this (enormously better boundaries, better communication with DD, putting deliberate effort into building better qualities within myself -integrity, honesty, and fidelity to name just a few). 

And, getting back to how all this relates to your post, writing down in detail how I feel now in relation to what I did. I'm to write out all my horrid actions, the pain it has caused DD, our family, and myself, and how I feel about myself because of this. This will be different from the timeline I wrote for DD; this will be for myself. And I'm to keep it and read it occasionally. Not all the time, as the goal isn't to continue this level of self-hate, but to remind myself of the hurt and pain I'm in now. She says this level of pain will fade with time -for both me and DD -but for me, it is necessary to remind myself of it, to further remind myself of how terribly awful this has been and how I never want to sink to these lows again. It's hard to believe I won't always hate myself like I do now, but I think it is a good idea to write this out, partly to get it all out on paper (and not clog up the R thread more than I absolutely have to) and to have it down as a reminder. I like the idea of getting it out and possibly setting it aside at some point too. 

I realize, as the BS, you and I are in different places, but I think it might be good for all of us to write it out and have that reminder that we can put away but still look at when we are scared we might not always feel as strongly. And maybe that way, you won't have to constantly hold on to the pain on a daily basis.


----------



## Acabado

ChangingMe said:


> I asked my IC yesterday how I can remove the deceitful, cheating part of myself from me, and she said I can't. Which is again, absolutely devastating. I'm crying as I type this. She said what I have to do is recognize that that part of me exists, and to never allow her control again. There are a lot of things I can do to ensure this (enormously better boundaries, better communication with DD, putting deliberate effort into building better qualities within myself -integrity, honesty, and fidelity to name just a few).


I'm absolutely sure we all carry a dark passenger, I've seen mine too many times to count. 
To admit it, to know him, his tricks and ways to show up is important so we put him in the cage he deserves. Still I'm not sure if this letter you are about to write is healthy. Sounds scary. You are a brave woman.

You deserve good things.


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## Rookie4

Sweetie's therapist views it somewhat differently. In her view, the self-image we have is, in our youth, based on faith. We are not mature enough or introspective enough or have enough experience, to be able to understand ourself, and how we will react in certain situations. An example is : how does a soldier KNOW he will be brave, if he has not been in battle? The more experience and knowledge we acquire and the more we self examine, and interact, the more we are able to modify characteristics that are harmful to us and others, or find unpleasant, or simply to understand ourselves and our reasons for acting in certain manners or patterns.. That is the key. Understanding ourselves, and knowing how to modify our own behavior, in light of that understanding. .It is not possible to eradicate all of our issues, but it is very possible to CHANGE them into something more positive and less harmful.


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## cpacan

ChangingMe said:


> I read this on my phone and felt the need to log on and comment. I think this is a normal fear for BSs. At least it is something that DD has alluded to as well, though more that if he lets himself heal, then I will forget and perhaps allow myself to hurt him again.
> 
> I will share a little from IC yesterday. I've been mulling it over in my head, and I planned on writing in depth about it in the FWW group, but maybe I'll just share here. I am having a terrible time lately coming to terms with who I am, how it is that I did what I did, how I could hurt people that I claim to love more than anything. Everything I did throughout my EA/PA goes against all I want to believe about myself -namely that I am a good wife, mother, daughter, friend, Christian, counselor, and any other noun I define myself by. Allowing myself to see the depths of my shame, selfishness, and gross depravity is quite honestly knocking me off my feet and waking me up at night.
> 
> I absolutely hate that those aspects exist within myself. It devastates me. I hate it, I'm embarrassed and ashamed, and it makes me feel unworthy to be in a relationship with anyone. I asked my IC yesterday how I can remove the deceitful, cheating part of myself from me, and she said I can't. Which is again, absolutely devastating. I'm crying as I type this. She said what I have to do is recognize that that part of me exists, and to never allow her control again. There are a lot of things I can do to ensure this (enormously better boundaries, better communication with DD, putting deliberate effort into building better qualities within myself -integrity, honesty, and fidelity to name just a few).
> 
> And, getting back to how all this relates to your post, writing down in detail how I feel now in relation to what I did. I'm to write out all my horrid actions, the pain it has caused DD, our family, and myself, and how I feel about myself because of this. This will be different from the timeline I wrote for DD; this will be for myself. And I'm to keep it and read it occasionally. Not all the time, as the goal isn't to continue this level of self-hate, but to remind myself of the hurt and pain I'm in now. She says this level of pain will fade with time -for both me and DD -but for me, it is necessary to remind myself of it, to further remind myself of how terribly awful this has been and how I never want to sink to these lows again. It's hard to believe I won't always hate myself like I do now, but I think it is a good idea to write this out, partly to get it all out on paper (and not clog up the R thread more than I absolutely have to) and to have it down as a reminder. I like the idea of getting it out and possibly setting it aside at some point too.
> 
> I realize, as the BS, you and I are in different places, but I think it might be good for all of us to write it out and have that reminder that we can put away but still look at when we are scared we might not always feel as strongly. And maybe that way, you won't have to constantly hold on to the pain on a daily basis.


CM; please don't keep valuable stuff like this in your private section!

Your post reminded me of some heavy stuff I need to digest mysel, thank you, I 'll spend the day thinking

I have an audio book called "The Shadow Effect" which discusses some of the points you and Acabado mention. That we all have The Shadow within us and that we create direction in our lives if we listen to what our shadow are trying to tell us. How can you know the blessing of light if you don't know the darkness? Used constructively, The Shadow is a powerfull tool for self improvement.

The book also discusses the power of projections and how we tend to deal with our own shortcomings by projecting on other people. The trick is to know when we are projecting and learn how to deal with it.

As a BS, I can tell you that the single most scary thing was to (re)discover that my wife actually possesses the dark side in the form of desire for cheating. And that I untill this day don't have a single clue to, if she has the strength to deal with it or not. So I need to accept the fact, that it might just happen again. How cool is that?

I feel quite confident, that you can do this, you have the knowledge, the experiences (good and bad), insight and self awareness to do so - it also seems that you have the willpower to control yourself. I admire that.

One of my favorite persons to quote is Master Yoda and for you I have chosen this one: Fear is the path to the Dark Side. "Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering..." and "Anger, fear, aggression... the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

I believe you are now aware of the dark side, got a taste of it, and that you have chosen another path for you life.

I have more on my mind, but need to go to work (still), so I 'll leave it there for now. Take care, and may the force be with you.


----------



## margrace

thanks, everyone, for your kind, supportive comments! I read every one of them *more than once* during the day. you help keep me going.

pidge, my heart goes out to you and joe…. and to you, too, OT.

B1, i am feeling for/with you right this minute. i woke up with a hint of that old panic… working this morning on *talking back to it* because i want what you want 

dig, when i saw this…

_It was about this time last year she texted to say her union meeting was just about over and would be on the road shortly..._

… I had to have a quick little cry. yes, me too, this time last year. 

thanks, css, cm, EI, and mrs. m for your great hearts and for sharing memories of your side of the journey. really inspires me and helps me pick my head up. for me, you humanize R from all sides, and when i see that complete picture – all of us trying to find courage, trying to learn, wishing to be better people, better partners – a little wave of peace comes to me.

acabado, what you said about the dark passenger, and cpacan, what you added to that…. that blew me away. I will remember those words.

wellllllll…. i am hoping to mobilize some good things in myself today and feel better this evening that I do now


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## Jasel

I had a dream last night I was married, my wife cheated, and we were trying to reconcile. Wtf has this place done to me:scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## AMU

Dig - thinking of you again today. I know it was more the day than the date, but also realize today's date and wanted you to know you and Regret are in my thoughts again today. Loved hearing about the St. Patrick's Day plans and hope that kiss last night was a memorable one. Be good to yourself again today - keep making those new, positive memories!


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Hi, TAMily (thanks for this, CM!)

I wanted to post an update. Some of this is scooped out of a PM exchange I had with B1, so B1, nothing much new here for you. 

We are actually doing really well. I think that, when my wife left, she wasn't really aware of how happy she was with the life we had. We are back to that, plus improved intimacy The sex thing is still not happening much, but I think she is okay with this, and everything else is working so well, we are just sort of waiting for that to sort itself out.

The reason I haven't been on much is three-fold: 

First, there's not much to tell - again, it's going pretty smoothly, and we are both happy with how things are progressing. I imagine some will think we're rug-sweeping, and I guess, all-told, we sort of are doing that. But if we are happy, then we are happy. If the prospect of him coming up here to bring her "stuff" comes up again, things will likely blow up. But that's down the road, and I cannot let it ruin my day-to-day life. The other day, she actually flat-out apologized for making her trip to see him. That was a first.

Secondly, I am now enjoying a freedom to be flirty, push the envelope a bit, be the real me that I, at least right now, want to be. I'm out gigging a lot now, and it feels good to get attention from other women. She now cannot really say anything about this. So I'm opening up a bit, but not dangerously so.

And... I do not often get the email notifications from TAM when people from the thread post. This may be a hidden blessing from God, because for a while, I was pretty obsessed with all this. It was all I did, all I thought about. It's been nice not having the drama. 

I have made some new friends here, and that's been unexpected - you know, I live in a pretty hick town, and doubted that I would ever find any kindred spirits. But I now have 2 guys that I lunch with regularly. This is cool. 

Finally, I have finally pulled out of a depression that was probably a year long, and exacerbated by "the event." I am now actually in a mild manic phase, and, other than that I hardly sleep any more, it's kind of fun. I have lots of energy, and am getting sh!t done!

I still pray for all of you frequently, and of course hope the best for you all. Was going to mention you all by name, but surely I'd miss someone, and would hurt feelings. This is not a "goodbye" post. I will be around. I think of all of you often, and that's when I pray.

Bobka


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## calvin

Was getting worried about you bobka.
Glad too hear thing are looking up for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

SomedayDig said:


> Sometimes I'm afraid if I'm not feeling it, I will forget it and then my pain was for "nothing".
> 
> Honest as I can be right there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WOW..............I so get this Dig!

and at the same time I can't explain it....


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## B1

bobka\HSE
"But I now have 2 guys that I lunch with regularly. This is cool."

That's great news!! your getting out, making friends and working on you.


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## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> I read this on my phone and felt the need to log on and comment. I think this is a normal fear for BSs. At least it is something that DD has alluded to as well, though more that if he lets himself heal, then I will forget and perhaps allow myself to hurt him again.
> 
> I will share a little from IC yesterday. I've been mulling it over in my head, and I planned on writing in depth about it in the FWW group, but maybe I'll just share here. I am having a terrible time lately coming to terms with who I am, how it is that I did what I did, how I could hurt people that I claim to love more than anything. Everything I did throughout my EA/PA goes against all I want to believe about myself -namely that I am a good wife, mother, daughter, friend, Christian, counselor, and any other noun I define myself by. Allowing myself to see the depths of my shame, selfishness, and gross depravity is quite honestly knocking me off my feet and waking me up at night.
> 
> I absolutely hate that those aspects exist within myself. It devastates me. I hate it, I'm embarrassed and ashamed, and it makes me feel unworthy to be in a relationship with anyone. I asked my IC yesterday how I can remove the deceitful, cheating part of myself from me, and she said I can't. Which is again, absolutely devastating. I'm crying as I type this. She said what I have to do is recognize that that part of me exists, and to never allow her control again. There are a lot of things I can do to ensure this (enormously better boundaries, better communication with DD, putting deliberate effort into building better qualities within myself -integrity, honesty, and fidelity to name just a few).
> 
> And, getting back to how all this relates to your post, writing down in detail how I feel now in relation to what I did. I'm to write out all my horrid actions, the pain it has caused DD, our family, and myself, and how I feel about myself because of this. This will be different from the timeline I wrote for DD; this will be for myself. And I'm to keep it and read it occasionally. Not all the time, as the goal isn't to continue this level of self-hate, but to remind myself of the hurt and pain I'm in now. She says this level of pain will fade with time -for both me and DD -but for me, it is necessary to remind myself of it, to further remind myself of how terribly awful this has been and how I never want to sink to these lows again. It's hard to believe I won't always hate myself like I do now, but I think it is a good idea to write this out, partly to get it all out on paper (and not clog up the R thread more than I absolutely have to) and to have it down as a reminder. I like the idea of getting it out and possibly setting it aside at some point too.
> 
> I realize, as the BS, you and I are in different places, but I think it might be good for all of us to write it out and have that reminder that we can put away but still look at when we are scared we might not always feel as strongly. And maybe that way, you won't have to constantly hold on to the pain on a daily basis.


CM, I am so glad you wrote this here instead of in the fWW group. I'm tearing up as I read this right now and I'm not afraid to say that. All I keep thinking of is did my ex wife ever have a moment like you describe here? She never demonstrated it in my presence and I never heard anyone mention it to me. But I can't help but wonder if, at night when nobody else was around and all she had was the company of her own thoughts, whether she experienced even a little of this sense of remorse. I am extremely saddened at that thought and that you have to experience this level of hurt. But the fact that you are in pain tells me that you are dealing with what you did in a positive manner and will be ok in the long run. I wish that there was a support group for WS and BS alike where thoughts and feelings like this could be shared and a sense of healing could be experienced as a result.

Thank you


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## bfree

margrace said:


> thanks, everyone, for your kind, supportive comments! I read every one of them *more than once* during the day. you help keep me going.
> 
> pidge, my heart goes out to you and joe…. and to you, too, OT.
> 
> B1, i am feeling for/with you right this minute. *i woke up with a hint of that old panic… working this morning on talking back to it because i want what you want *
> dig, when i saw this…
> 
> _It was about this time last year she texted to say her union meeting was just about over and would be on the road shortly..._
> 
> … I had to have a quick little cry. yes, me too, this time last year.
> 
> thanks, css, cm, EI, and mrs. m for your great hearts and for sharing memories of your side of the journey. really inspires me and helps me pick my head up. for me, you humanize R from all sides, and when i see that complete picture – all of us trying to find courage, trying to learn, wishing to be better people, better partners – a little wave of peace comes to me.
> 
> acabado, what you said about the dark passenger, and cpacan, what you added to that…. that blew me away. I will remember those words.
> 
> wellllllll…. i am hoping to mobilize some good things in myself today and feel better this evening that I do now


Margrace,

Talking back to your pain is not as strange as one might first think. Many years ago I had an auto accident where I was impaled by a steel pipe through my back. While the injury healed it did cause serious damage to the muscles in my back. About three years ago I started to get massive headaches and eventually the cause was determined to be those same muscles in my back tightening up and pulling my spine out of alignment. The doctors recommended botox shots directly into those muscles in order to completely numb them. Frankly I don't really enjoy medications and like shots even less. Mrs bfree is very much into holistic and alternative medicine. She bought me a book by Dr. John Sarno called Healing Back Pain - The Mind Body Connection. In that book Dr. Sarno talks about how the mind can be used to overcome very real debilitating pain. One of the techniques he recommends is talking to your pain and telling it to go away. I tried it and for a year and a half I have not needed shots or any other medication for my back. So when you say you are talking back to your pain I not only understand what you mean I am telling you that it not only can work but it will work.


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## SomedayDig

B1 said:


> WOW..............I so get this Dig!
> 
> and at the same time I can't explain it....


It's such a crazy place to be, that's for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

a crazy place, and i am soooo sick of it, you guys. not dealing with it well today.


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## AMU

margrace said:


> a crazy place, and i am soooo sick of it, you guys. not dealing with it well today.


Margrace - I've been reading your posts for a long time, and wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you and cheering for you. You have been doing the hard work necessary to help yourself move forward for some time and I'm happy to see that your husband is starting the heavy lifting on his part. Sharing the details of the affair is an important step is helping you both to move forward.

And I do believe this is hard for him, because he knows how painful the details will be for you to hear and process. They are probably things he is ashamed of and would prefer not to admit to and about himself, either. As a FWS, I have seen and continue to see the pain my husband suffers as he thinks about the details of my affair. It is anguishing to watch his pain, so I can only imagine the pain you are feeling standing in his shoes. And although this stage is incredibly painful, I wish you the strength to move forward with what you choose to do, knowing this information.

Please know that you are surrounded by many people here who are sending you happy thoughts and wishing you some peace and happier days ahead.


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## margrace

AMU said:


> Margrace - I've been reading your posts for a long time, and wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you and cheering for you. You have been doing the hard work necessary to help yourself move forward for some time and I'm happy to see that your husband is starting the heavy lifting on his part. Sharing the details of the affair is an important step is helping you both to move forward.
> 
> And I do believe this is hard for him, because he knows how painful the details will be for you to hear and process. They are probably things he is ashamed of and would prefer not to admit to and about himself, either. As a FWS, I have seen and continue to see the pain my husband suffers as he thinks about the details of my affair. It is anguishing to watch his pain, so I can only imagine the pain you are feeling standing in his shoes. And although this stage is incredibly painful, I wish you the strength to move forward with what you choose to do, knowing this information.
> 
> Please know that you are surrounded by many people here who are sending you happy thoughts and wishing you some peace and happier days ahead.


thank you for sharing that, amu.... and i can feel the happy thoughts that you are sending as i read this  they are needed today!


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## EI

bfree said:


> I wish that there was a support group for WS and BS alike where thoughts and feelings like this could be shared and a sense of healing could be experienced as a result.


I think there is a support group like that. It's called "The Reconciliation Thread." 

That is what I love about it. This thread took on a life of it's own early on. Perhaps, the name of it is what drew people in. BS's *AND* WS's, and others, as well, who were seeking hope, answers, guidance, direction, support, etc...... decided to check it out and found a place where they could truly share..... share everything...... without having to suffer through the usual character assassinations that scare so many away from TAM before they can get the help that they so are desperately seeking and need. 

It's so important for WS's to fully understand the impact of their actions on their BS's, children, family and friends. It's equally important for BS's to understand the "why," the "how," the "what were they (WS's) thinking?," and perhaps, the most important question of all, "what are they (WS's) thinking, now?" We all know what happens, on TAM, when WS's get asked questions and then they answer them. Who is going to subject themselves to that over and over again? We, WS's, came here in a very defeated state to begin with. But, the fact that we came here, at all, indicates that we're looking for help. 

I think we understand that, when seeking answers, if you treat others the way you'd like to be treated (no matter what you think of the actions that brought us all here) you will have a much greater opportunity to gain the valuble insight that we all came here hoping to find. We have all learned so much from one another. 

As for me, as a WS, I think I said this on another thread..... the most important thing I have gotten from TAM is a greater understanding of the depth of my own BS's pain. I was too caught up in my own feelings; of pain, anger, bitterness, resentment, fear, vulnerability, shame, you name it and I've felt it, to truly sympathize with B1's. Besides, I was mad at him and I was detached from him. We had grown so distant that I wasn't "feeling" any of what he was feeling. But, as I read story after story, here, from the BS's, and could "feel" their pain...... (because I wasn't mad at them..... so I wasn't biased in my beliefs about the intensity of their suffering) I began to feel B1's pain through the suffering of the other BS's. I hope that makes sense. 

Without the "safety" of the "R" thread, I wouldn't have been able to stay on TAM. That would have been unfortunate because I think without it, without all of you, B1 and I would not be this far along. But, we still have a long way to go. We all do. I venture out to other threads, occasionally. Sometimes, even threads that aren't "safe." I say my part. Sometimes it's appreciated and other times it's...... NOT. I'm a lot stronger than I was a few months ago...... I can handle the negative feedback. I know that some will never be in a place to hear what I'm trying to say. I don't ever want people to "accept" infidelity. But, because so many of us are affected by it, I am just trying to help people "understand" a little more about it. I'm still trying to understand it, myelf. I've come a long way..... But, I still have such a long way to go.


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## CantSitStill

When this thread first came out I had no idea it would be what it is today..altho EI before I met you I felt like I was the only former WS on Tam and on here with her husband. When I first found you and B1 I felt like "wow, a couple going thru the same as we are" and now I am happy to know other couples are here and even the ones here without their spouses have been so helpful to get it in my head what I was doing wrong and why and how I could improve. I remember making a thread at first called, what's the difference between being sorry and remorse" I wanted answers and I'm glad I've spend shoot over a year here now and have learned so much since then. I didn't believe that it takes 2 yrs or more to feel better. Heck I thought we were different. And to see other WS' post ..wow they say everything I feel. It just amazed me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Why did it come to this crap? Don't really think either one of us will really ever know.
Why was she so hardheaded? Why was I? I did try and then when CSS did want to try I said no to spite her. 
She actually told me the other day that she thought I married her for sex.

I had a lot of girls hitting on me,even before we were married,my sisters tried to set me up with some very pretty girls but I was dating CSS and wouldn't do it.

Seems like one big cluster fvck sometimes and yes,8 still wonder what the hell I did to deserve this.
Sometimes I wonder why I just didn't keep her out of the house when I could have.
I could'nt throw someone I love out into the crap she was about to face.
Would she have deseved it?....oh. yes she would have.
It takes two but it only takes one to really fvck crap up bad.
I played my part in the marriage going down hill but I never tried to solve it by bring a nut bag into my home.
I dodnt get it,guess I never will.....sigh.
I love her and that's what matters but I refuse to ever come close to going through this again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

I don't know if this makes any sense but I don't think of those in this thread as WS or BS. I think of people here as good people dealing with difficult issues but all on the same rewarding road together.

I was going to say more but I erased it. It was getting corny.


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## calvin

Nothing makes sense sometime,especially this phone right now but I do know that thinks that get wrecked,totaled or burned to the ground can be fixed and repaired and made better than new in most cases.
Corney enough for you bfree.
Corney but true.
I love my wife and I know we will be ok,we're already on the road to being good.
Patching chuck holes along the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

I would be interested in hearing from you all about how you dealt with the extreme anger phase of R? Matt has really been struggling with that off and on lately, and it's building into some fairly substantial resentment. I'm trying to show him that I'm here, engage him in conversation when possible, just trying to keep our day on an even keel even when I know he is upset. Were there any coping mechanisms that really helped you other than time? Anything your spouse did in particular that helped you feel they were with you through the pain? Any resources that assisted your own personal growth? Matt's not been a fan of his IC sessions, so he doesn't plan to go back to those and I don't know what to suggest, honestly. He's really trying to be kind to me right now, but I'm afraid of things bottling up and becoming insurmountable if we don't really face it head on.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I really appreciate it.


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## margrace

question for all of you.

i have learned so much from the WSs about the pain that they feel as they disclose the details of the A -- the pain that the details bring to the BS causes pain to the WS as well. plus, the shame associated with the disclosure is painful, too.

in your R, has this ever led the WS to minimize some aspects of the A -- especially how emotionally-attached, or even in love, the WS may have felt during the A?

and if that happened, is it important or better to draw it out?

i find myself wondering about the depth of the emotional part in my WH's situation, but it's not clear to me if knowing more about this in particular would help me right now.


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## Mrs_Mathias

margrace said:


> question for all of you.
> 
> i have learned so much from the WSs about the pain that they feel as they disclose the details of the A -- the pain that the details bring to the BS causes pain to the WS as well. plus, the shame associated with the disclosure is painful, too.
> 
> in your R, has this ever led the WS to minimize some aspects of the A -- especially how emotionally-attached, or even in love, the WS may have felt during the A?
> 
> and if that happened, is it important or better to draw it out?
> 
> i find myself wondering about the depth of the emotional part in my WH's situation, but it's not clear to me if knowing more about this in particular would help me right now.


Oh, margrace, I wish there was an answer to your question.

I know we all have different aspects of the affair that causes us increased shame, pain, and guilt, and sometimes what those aspects are can change from day to day as we deal with them.

The only answer here is what do YOU need? Your husband will have to deal with everything sooner or later. But as we've seen from Rookie's recent bout of brutal honesty, if you ask a question at this point, you have to be prepared for an honest answer. And those answers are always painful for all of us, but necessary for some spouses and not for others. Only you can attempt to guess whether not knowing will weigh on your mind and prevent you from healing. The problem of course, is that you can never really know that without experiencing it. Matt has been very detail oriented with my affair, wanting to know conversations, specific words used (as much as that is possible), and even re-enacting sex acts. Sometimes he now wishes he didn't know some of those things, but I think ultimately for him, he had to know. In some cases, his imagination was worse than the reality, and in other cases it wasn't.

So I guess what you have to be ready to face is finding out your worst-case scenario and ask yourself how will you handle it if you KNOW it to be true? Will it change your goals regarding R or D? Does not knowing it affect your ability to R or D? Regardless of the pain, shame, and assorted other emotions we waywards face, it is our responsibility to attempt to give you whatever you need to heal.


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> question for all of you.
> 
> i have learned so much from the WSs about the pain that they feel as they disclose the details of the A -- the pain that the details bring to the BS causes pain to the WS as well. plus, the shame associated with the disclosure is painful, too.
> 
> in your R, has this ever led the WS to minimize some aspects of the A -- especially how emotionally-attached, or even in love, the WS may have felt during the A?
> 
> and if that happened, is it important or better to draw it out?
> 
> i find myself wondering about the depth of the emotional part in my WH's situation, but it's not clear to me if knowing more about this in particular would help me right now.


EI was very upfront about her feelings for the OM, she said she loved him. This, believe it or not helped me. EI wanted a relationship, she wanted a companion. She was not in love with me, and thought she loved him, she in essence replaced me and moved on. This as hurtful as it sounds at least made sense. It helped me deal with this mess. 

EI had moved on, granted it was wrong in so many ways but it still added up. I could wrap my head around that. It hurt but like I said it also made sense, I understood here thinking, as warped as it was I understood it. 

I think you should pursue it only if you are prepared for some possibly tough and hurtful truths. But for me, it overall helped me to know this, to know EI's thinking at the time.


----------



## calvin

Mrs.M,
Even though CSS didn't go physical,the I love yous,the four kisses and hugs and the thousand of text and phone call damn near killed me.
I really mean it almost killed me.I'm not. Bullsh!tting either.
It did'nt matter if it did'nt go physical,the betrayal was more than enough.
What works for one bs might not work for another but for me what did help was.....
Time,biggest factor but not most important,css saying how sorry she was a few times a day,sometimes she still says it out of the blue and it helps.
Hugs and kisses even if I don't want them,her persistance helped a lot,I knew she was serious about trying to fix us.
Little things were big to me,love notes in my lunch,her whispering she loved me when I was falling asleep.
CSS,taking my anger over the A and coming back for more.
Her seeing the OM for really what he was and talking with contempt for him.
I compared my self to the ex con a lot,I knew I was better but then again,I must not be the man he is if she chose him over me,its what I thought.
Sex,yes sex.It got much better and CSS really get into it more and she has let herself enjoy it. 
Sex is another way of showing love,its not all about getting you rocks off but sometimes an animal fvck is great.
Don't give up,wear him down,assure him how it will never...ever happen again.
Like the glaciers carved out the Great Lakes,you'll have to be slow,steady,determind and keep pushing hard but easy if that makes sense.

I'm rambling bad here.Just don't give up......ever


----------



## CantSitStill

The thing with me is this. The I love yous with the a-holde ex om were more of in my head "oh someone loves me and compliments me" I wanted the compliments and didn't ever really care about his well being..I cactually didnt give a crap about his life..I always and never stopped caring about Calvin. Always worried about him getting hurt at work or getting in a car accident or when he would be sick or well everythhing..I tried to tell myself I wasn't in love with him..told him that too because the passion was gone..In my mind at the time it was all his fault. Now I know I own alot of the pre-A stuff. I neglected him, didn't pay attention to him and put my kids first. There are alot more things but don't wanna go on and on. So as for the sex problems..I can't figure out if I got my sex peak now at my age or if it's because we hug, kiss, touch, hold hands and get close and talk but I crave sex now. This is new to me. All of our marriage I could take it or leave it most of the time. So much has changed. My passion for calvin is unbelievably huge! I love him like crazy and can't get enough of him..shoot talking about him makes me wanna grab him and kiss him passionately right now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I would be interested in hearing from you all about how you dealt with the extreme anger phase of R? Matt has really been struggling with that off and on lately, and it's building into some fairly substantial resentment. I'm trying to show him that I'm here, engage him in conversation when possible, just trying to keep our day on an even keel even when I know he is upset. Were there any coping mechanisms that really helped you other than time? Anything your spouse did in particular that helped you feel they were with you through the pain? Any resources that assisted your own personal growth? Matt's not been a fan of his IC sessions, so he doesn't plan to go back to those and I don't know what to suggest, honestly. He's really trying to be kind to me right now, but I'm afraid of things bottling up and becoming insurmountable if we don't really face it head on.
> 
> Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I really appreciate it.


hey mrs. m:

yes, the anger comes and goes for me as well. i don't know if this counts as a coping mechanism, but one of the things that helps temper it is when i can step back and see the whole picture. the whole picture does *not* exonerate or excuse him, but my anger isn't as hot when i can reflect on the failings that we both brought to our pre-A marriage, and when i can think about the fact that i've needed people to give me a chance to be accountable, too (and will again).

what can you do? sounds to me like, just keep doing what you're doing. just be relentlessly there, listening, answering, through his ups and downs. i know how he feels -- i can be okay-ish one minute, and then be FILLED with panic the next: it hits me like, wait, WHAT?! like alarm bells and desperation and paranoia all of a sudden. 

so i think you're already doing a lot of this, but just stay open and loving during those times... keep reassuring him, even when you feel like you've said it a million times... and stay transparent and honest. finally, for me, it's important to know that the restoration of my WH's integrity matters to HIM.


----------



## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> The thing with me is this. The I love yous with the a-holde ex om were more of in my head "oh someone loves me and compliments me" I wanted the compliments and didn't ever really care about his well being..I cactually didnt give a crap about his life..I always and never stopped caring about Calvin. Always worried about him getting hurt at work or getting in a car accident or when he would be sick or well everythhing..I tried to tell myself I wasn't in love with him..told him that too because the passion was gone..In my mind at the time it was all his fault. Now I know I own alot of the pre-A stuff. I neglected him, didn't pay attention to him and put my kids first. There are alot more things but don't wanna go on and on. So as for the sex problems..I can't figure out if I got my sex peak now at my age or if it's because we hug, kiss, touch, hold hands and get close and talk but I crave sex now. This is new to me. All of our marriage I could take it or leave it most of the time. So much has changed. My passion for calvin is unbelievably huge! I love him like crazy and can't get enough of him..shoot talking about him makes me wanna grab him and kiss him passionately right now!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


that helps SO much, css. my WH says that he was not in love with her, but there was obviously something there, and i guess i want some way of understanding it. like, how do i wrap my head around that? what you are saying kind of helps the pieces fit....


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin goes thru this too Margrace, it freaks me out because it feel like all of a sudden he is in shock like it's d-day all over again. It hits him so hard even if the day before he tells me he's ready to put it all behind him and move forward and loves me so much. I understand it just happens to him and when he triggers I freak out right along with him..There are days I wake up and think OMG what was I thinking back then.. it's a rollercoaster. Just hang on and continue counselling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin goes thru this too Margrace, it freaks me out because it feel like all of a sudden he is in shock like it's d-day all over again. It hits him so hard even if the day before he tells me he's ready to put it all behind him and move forward and loves me so much. I understand it just happens to him and when he triggers I freak out right along with him..There are days I wake up and think OMG what was I thinking back then.. it's a rollercoaster. Just hang on and continue counselling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At least we freak out together,then later we just get freaky.We will be good,christ it takes awhile but I know its worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony55

ChangingMe said:


> I am having a terrible time lately coming to terms with who I am, how it is that I did what I did, how I could hurt people that I claim to love more than anything. Everything I did throughout my EA/PA goes against all I want to believe about myself -namely that I am a good wife, mother, daughter, friend, Christian, counselor, and any other noun I define myself by. Allowing myself to see the depths of my shame, selfishness, and gross depravity is quite honestly knocking me off my feet and waking me up at night.


Are you still on the SSRI? If so, are you on the same dose as last year this time, or the lower dose? I know this isn't something people like to talk about, but it is pertinent, and very important, especially if you cut the does in half or are off it altogether.

T


----------



## ChangingMe

Tony55 said:


> Are you still on the SSRI? If so, are you on the same dose as last year this time, or the lower dose? I know this isn't something people like to talk about, but it is pertinent, and very important, especially if you cut the does in half or are off it altogether.
> 
> T


I am basically off it. 

I was on 100 mg of Zoloft from January 2012 until November, then weaned down to 50. Took 50 for a couple months, then started alternating days (my pills are 100 mg, so I can really only break them in half, making them 50). Did 50 every other day for a while, then every 2 days, then every 3 or 4 when I could feel myself getting irritable. I haven't taken any since last week some time, and that was the only one I had that week. 

My depression has always come out in irritability instead of sadness, though I do know you are going to say that being off it is allowing me to feel what the SSRI kept from bothering me. Perhaps you're right. I do know that the realization of the depths to which I sunk is hitting me harder now than in the past 8 months. And I thought it was pretty damn bad in the weeks after DDay.


----------



## happyman64

First this Calvin!



> She actually told me the other day that she thought I married her for sex.


Then this Calvin!



> At least we freak out together,then later we just get freaky.


So what was your answer to her? Did you marry her for freaky sex???

Or because she is so freaking sexy????????????

I really wanna know? Do tell!!!


----------



## ChangingMe

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I would be interested in hearing from you all about how you dealt with the extreme anger phase of R? Matt has really been struggling with that off and on lately, and it's building into some fairly substantial resentment. I'm trying to show him that I'm here, engage him in conversation when possible, just trying to keep our day on an even keel even when I know he is upset. Were there any coping mechanisms that really helped you other than time? Anything your spouse did in particular that helped you feel they were with you through the pain? Any resources that assisted your own personal growth? Matt's not been a fan of his IC sessions, so he doesn't plan to go back to those and I don't know what to suggest, honestly. He's really trying to be kind to me right now, but I'm afraid of things bottling up and becoming insurmountable if we don't really face it head on.
> 
> Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I really appreciate it.


I have no answers for you, MrsM, but wanted to say that I right there with you and also want help when the anger hits DD. 

I do think talking regularly is key and bottling up always seems to lead to a blow-up. One thing I have been guilty of is waiting for him to bring the subject up at times, and he told me last night that there are times he is holding his breath in hopes that I will ask how he is, how we are, and I don't. I felt horrible. I try to gauge where he's at, but I don't always specifically ask, and I need to. I think perhaps we can avoid some blow-ups if I check in more regularly. 

The anger is hard, I know. For both the BS and the WS.


----------



## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> CM, I am so glad you wrote this here instead of in the fWW group. I'm tearing up as I read this right now and I'm not afraid to say that. All I keep thinking of is did my ex wife ever have a moment like you describe here? She never demonstrated it in my presence and I never heard anyone mention it to me. But I can't help but wonder if, at night when nobody else was around and all she had was the company of her own thoughts, whether she experienced even a little of this sense of remorse. I am extremely saddened at that thought and that you have to experience this level of hurt. But the fact that you are in pain tells me that you are dealing with what you did in a positive manner and will be ok in the long run. I wish that there was a support group for WS and BS alike where thoughts and feelings like this could be shared and a sense of healing could be experienced as a result.
> 
> Thank you


I cannot speak for your ex wife of course, but I will tell you that I let out my pain and shame almost entirely when I am alone. I feel unworthy to do so in front of DD and I do my best not to cry in front of my children or my mother, because it upsets them all. 

I caused this pain, it is my burden to carry and work through. I cried in my car 3 times today as I drove. As I've mentioned before, I am the only one at my office in the mornings, and I cry there at least a couple times a week. DD has told me that there are times he listens in to what he's recorded on my phone, and it's me sobbing. There is so much shame, so much pain, and I can keep it in only until there is an appropriate time to get it out. 

Again, maybe not all waywards feel like this, but I know I'm not the only one that is shocked and disgusted at what they have become.


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> question for all of you.
> 
> 
> ........in your R, has this ever led the WS to minimize some aspects of the A -- especially how emotionally-attached, or even in love, the WS may have felt during the A?
> 
> and if that happened, is it important or better to draw it out?


Check your pm's.....


----------



## jim123

ChangingMe said:


> I cannot speak for your ex wife of course, but I will tell you that I let out my pain and shame almost entirely when I am alone. I feel unworthy to do so in front of DD and I do my best not to cry in front of my children or my mother, because it upsets them all.
> 
> I caused this pain, it is my burden to carry and work through. I cried in my car 3 times today as I drove. As I've mentioned before, I am the only one at my office in the mornings, and I cry there at least a couple times a week. DD has told me that there are times he listens in to what he's recorded on my phone, and it's me sobbing. There is so much shame, so much pain, and I can keep it in only until there is an appropriate time to get it out.
> 
> Again, maybe not all waywards feel like this, but I know I'm not the only one that is shocked and disgusted at what they have become.


Have you asked DD for help,


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> I cannot speak for your ex wife of course, but I will tell you that I let out my pain and shame almost entirely when I am alone. I feel unworthy to do so in front of DD and I do my best not to cry in front of my children or my mother, because it upsets them all.
> 
> I caused this pain, it is my burden to carry and work through. I cried in my car 3 times today as I drove. As I've mentioned before, I am the only one at my office in the mornings, and I cry there at least a couple times a week. DD has told me that there are times he listens in to what he's recorded on my phone, and it's me sobbing. There is so much shame, so much pain, and I can keep it in only until there is an appropriate time to get it out.
> 
> Again, maybe not all waywards feel like this, but I know I'm not the only one that is shocked and disgusted at what they have become.


(((hugs))) cm, you did not _become_ a something. you _did _a something that was terribly wrong, and that hurt someone immeasurably, and that hurt you immeasurably, and it's something that will never really go away. AND you are staring it in the face, never looking away from it, never pretending like there are excuses, always actively wanting to understand it, wanting to help your H in any way imaginable, working to shoulder all the legitimate consequences, all the time reaching out to other people.

what you _are_ becoming is the kind of wise woman and friend that we all love to have in our lives, someone who has integrity without self-righteousness and a perspective that comes from a hard journey and from love that has been tested.


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> First this Calvin!
> 
> 
> 
> Then this Calvin!
> 
> 
> 
> So what was your answer to her? Did you marry her for freaky sex???
> 
> Or because she is so freaking sexy????????????
> 
> I really wanna know? Do tell!!!


She's freaking sexy Hm but that's just one of the reeasons I married her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

calvin said:


> She's freaking sexy Hm but that's just one of the reeasons I married her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good.for.you.Calvin.

Now.when you.get.home.get your.freak.on.

You.big.freak!.


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Good.for.you.Calvin.
> 
> Now.when you.get.home.get your.freak.on.
> 
> You.big.freak!.


I could use a good freakathon today after work
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

ChangingMe said:


> I am basically off it.
> 
> I was on 100 mg of Zoloft from January 2012 until November, then weaned down to 50. Took 50 for a couple months, then started alternating days (my pills are 100 mg, so I can really only break them in half, making them 50). Did 50 every other day for a while, then every 2 days, then every 3 or 4 when I could feel myself getting irritable. I haven't taken any since last week some time, and that was the only one I had that week.
> 
> My depression has always come out in irritability instead of sadness, though I do know you are going to say that being off it is allowing me to feel what the SSRI kept from bothering me. Perhaps you're right.* I do know that the realization of the depths to which I sunk is hitting me harder now than in the past 8 months*. And I thought it was pretty damn bad in the weeks after DDay.



Honestly, I think it just takes time for that realization to hit, I mean to really hit home. Tony could have a very good point, but it's not how SSRI's work for everyone.

I am on a SSRI and feel everything, without it I go into a dark hole where nothing matters. So, they all don't numb you to pain, at least they don't for me. Off an SSRI I would be much more likely to NOT feel, because I would be depressed and in that dark hole where I don't care about anything, pain included.

It took EI along time for it to hit, remember just last week I think when she cried all day long and some of the next day, it was hitting her then. Now, she hurt before, she knew what she did before and it hurt her. But the reality of it, I think, had been somewhat suppressed. It was just too much, then for whatever reason on that particular day she faced it head on and the reality of what she did hit home and it hurt her, and it was too much to handle so se had a melt down.

I think when things start looking up, looking better and feeling better the ws begins to feel undeserving of those feelings, they start self loathing, turning hating what they did into hating themselves. They begin to let the bad choice define them, at least for the moment. It's making sure you don't let it define you permanetly that's crucial. 

You are a good person CM, a good mom and wife, this choice doesn't define who you are, no more than lying once makes you always a liar. We, throughout life, ALL of us, make some bad choices. It's how we handle them and what we do next that really counts.

Then again I am a BS so I don't really know, these are just my thoughts from observing EI and seeing how she's dealing with it.


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Oh, margrace, I wish there was an answer to your question.
> 
> I know we all have different aspects of the affair that causes us increased shame, pain, and guilt, and sometimes what those aspects are can change from day to day as we deal with them.
> 
> The only answer here is what do YOU need? Your husband will have to deal with everything sooner or later. But as we've seen from Rookie's recent bout of brutal honesty, if you ask a question at this point, you have to be prepared for an honest answer. And those answers are always painful for all of us, but necessary for some spouses and not for others. Only you can attempt to guess whether not knowing will weigh on your mind and prevent you from healing. The problem of course, is that you can never really know that without experiencing it. Matt has been very detail oriented with my affair, wanting to know conversations, specific words used (as much as that is possible), and even re-enacting sex acts. Sometimes he now wishes he didn't know some of those things, but I think ultimately for him, he had to know. In some cases, his imagination was worse than the reality, and in other cases it wasn't.
> 
> So I guess what you have to be ready to face is finding out your worst-case scenario and ask yourself how will you handle it if you KNOW it to be true? Will it change your goals regarding R or D? Does not knowing it affect your ability to R or D? Regardless of the pain, shame, and assorted other emotions we waywards face, it is our responsibility to attempt to give you whatever you need to heal.


MM, there is no such thing as "brutal" honesty. There is honesty and there is dishonesty. What might seem "Brutal", is the emotional response to that honesty. What seems "brutal" to you might not seem so to someone else. My intent was and is , not to cause stress, not to give advice, but to encourage posters like you to begin to view your situation, dispassionately, honestly, factually and realistically. We all know, that a huge part of reconciliation is dealing with the emotional fallout from the affair. It is WHEN we begin to look at our marriages and the affair in a more dispassionate manner, that we are able to make the kind of decisions that will bring success, as a reconciled married couple or as well adjusted single persons. I know it may sound crazy, but reconciliation isn't for everybody, but then again, neither is divorce. What is MOST important is that we all, BS and WS alike, can grow healthier, and happier. I think that is about the best we can do, and the most we can ask, from such a horrible thing as infidelity.


----------



## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> I cannot speak for your ex wife of course, but I will tell you that I let out my pain and shame almost entirely when I am alone. I feel unworthy to do so in front of DD and I do my best not to cry in front of my children or my mother, because it upsets them all.
> 
> I caused this pain, it is my burden to carry and work through. I cried in my car 3 times today as I drove. As I've mentioned before, I am the only one at my office in the mornings, and I cry there at least a couple times a week. DD has told me that there are times he listens in to what he's recorded on my phone, and it's me sobbing. There is so much shame, so much pain, and I can keep it in only until there is an appropriate time to get it out.
> 
> Again, maybe not all waywards feel like this, but I know I'm not the only one that is shocked and disgusted at what they have become.


Thank you for your post CM. Although it hurts me to think of you going through such pain I am somewhat hopeful that my ex might just feel some remorse in those moments when she is alone. I don't want her to feel remorse for my sake any longer. Up until recently that would have been my reason. I have moved past the need for her validation or apologies. I hope she feels remorse because she has had such a hard difficult lonely life since out divorce. I saw a picture of her recently from a wedding she attended. It was the daughter of a friend we both know. It was a group photo and everyone in the group was with someone...except her. And she looked so sad. I know she hurt me not just with her actions but with her words and attitude during our divorce. And I also know that ultimately she did this to herself and her life is most assuredly self made. But I can't help but feel a profound sadness that she was not able or willing to examine the destructive choices she was making. And now its too late for her. She still has a few friends that she associates with occasionally. She still has her career....such as it is. But when all is said and done she really has nothing. No one to love and no one to love her. And because of her bitterness she can't even love herself. Recently my wife said that she is a bit heartbroken that my ex acted in the manner she did when I recently contacted her. Mrs bfree was even going to try to invite her to BBQs and family outings. But I guess its not to be. So sad.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> MM, there is no such thing as "brutal" honesty. There is honesty and there is dishonesty. What might seem "Brutal", is the emotional response to that honesty. What seems "brutal" to you might not seem so to someone else. My intent was and is , not to cause stress, not to give advice, but to encourage posters like you to begin to view your situation, dispassionately, honestly, factually and realistically. We all know, that a huge part of reconciliation is dealing with the emotional fallout from the affair. It is WHEN we begin to look at our marriages and the affair in a more dispassionate manner, that we are able to make the kind of decisions that will bring success, as a reconciled married couple or as well adjusted single persons. I know it may sound crazy, but reconciliation isn't for everybody, but then again, neither is divorce. What is MOST important is that we all, BS and WS alike, can grow healthier, and happier. I think that is about the best we can do, and the most we can ask, from such a horrible thing as infidelity.


I agree rookie. That's the reason I was so hard on Mrs. M in her thread although it was less to have her examine things in a dispassionate manner and more to motivate her to fight for what she wanted.


----------



## Tony55

ChangingMe said:


> I am basically off it.
> 
> Perhaps you're right. I do know that the realization of the depths to which I sunk is hitting me harder now than in the past 8 months. And I thought it was pretty damn bad in the weeks after DDay.


I truly believe that if you had not been on the SSRI, you most likely wouldn't have crossed the line a year ago. I think this information is helpful for others. I believe the barrier that stops us from crossing over to betrayal is absolutely affected by SSRI's. I think that since people tend to say they feel 'normal' or 'themselves again' when on these SSRI's they tend to overlook what it's really doing to the way they think.

T


----------



## adotson2001

All is true and I tried it. Boy it's hard because you have to forgive which I tried and forget which I couldn't. She needed closure on the subject but I kept bring it back fresh. So I've learned to shut up deal with it and be patient if you want to continue on with that someone.


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## SomedayDig

adotson2001 said:


> All is true and I tried it. Boy it's hard because you have to forgive which I tried and forget which I couldn't. She needed closure on the subject but I kept bring it back fresh. So I've learned to shut up deal with it and be patient if you want to continue on with that someone.


Umm...yer gonna wanna read the thread in it's entirety then.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> MM, there is no such thing as "brutal" honesty. There is honesty and there is dishonesty. What might seem "Brutal", is the emotional response to that honesty. What seems "brutal" to you might not seem so to someone else. My intent was and is , not to cause stress, not to give advice, but to encourage posters like you to begin to view your situation, dispassionately, honestly, factually and realistically. We all know, that a huge part of reconciliation is dealing with the emotional fallout from the affair. It is WHEN we begin to look at our marriages and the affair in a more dispassionate manner, that we are able to make the kind of decisions that will bring success, as a reconciled married couple or as well adjusted single persons. I know it may sound crazy, but reconciliation isn't for everybody, but then again, neither is divorce. What is MOST important is that we all, BS and WS alike, can grow healthier, and happier. I think that is about the best we can do, and the most we can ask, from such a horrible thing as infidelity.


Rookie, I'm sorry if my wording was wrong. "Brutal honesty" is a fairly common phrase in my head and simply reflects the fact that truth is hard. I do believe there are different ways to phrase the truth to be more or less hurtful, depending on your goal. But that's not the same as being dishonest. So I believe the emotional response to honesty can come from the giver as well as the receiver, if that makes any sense.


----------



## old timer

"Do these pants make my azz look fat?"

Brutally honesty: "Yes - like a water buffalo".

Compassionate honesty: "I really like the black pants better".


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Here's a crisp hundred...go buy another pair!

LOL

Just kidding!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

jim123 said:


> Have you asked DD for help,


No. This is mine to carry. DD's burden is already staggering and wearing him down. I am unwilling to add another ounce to it, because quite honestly I don't think he could handle it. 

And while an enormous portion of my grief is due to the pain I have caused my best friend and husband, a significant amount is due to the negative traits that I am finally admitting that I possess. Only I can deal with those; no one can help me. I have to look them head on, take control of them, and at the same time coax and build qualities within myself that I want to possess and that I can be proud of. 

It's hard work, but there is a small amount of peace and strength in knowing that this is something I can do. It is not something you can just sit and wish for; it requires action and effort. It will not erase my past choices, but it gives me hope that I can be above doing those things ever again. And perhaps one day I will have an honest and true self-confidence that comes from knowing that I have made honorable choices that day and treated people with the respect and love that I claim to have for them.


----------



## ChangingMe

Bobka, I forgot to say it yesterday, but hello stranger! It's good to see you popping back up here. It is also so good to read your update. I'm glad you are feeling better (though you use the word manic, which gets my psych ears going. Don't allow yourself to get too manic!). I'm happy for the new friends, and that you and your wife are getting along, and that the other guy is staying away. 

It sounds like you are taking good care of you, and as we all know, that's the only person we have control over. So good for you. 

Keep it up, and check in more often. You're missed when you gone.


----------



## ChangingMe

margrace said:


> in your R, has this ever led the WS to minimize some aspects of the A -- especially how emotionally-attached, or even in love, the WS may have felt during the A?
> 
> and if that happened, is it important or better to draw it out?
> 
> i find myself wondering about the depth of the emotional part in my WH's situation, but it's not clear to me if knowing more about this in particular would help me right now.


I've actually typed out responses to this twice, but I don't quite know how to word what I want to say, so I keep deleting. Forgive me if this makes no sense at all. 

I agree with others that, as the BS, you have a right to whatever info you feel you need to know. As the WS, we certainly owe you that much. I agree with others too though that you have to know you can't unhear anything that you might learn. 

As you all may or may not know, DD caught me cheating by placing a recording program on my phone. He actually recorded audio of xOM and me having sex. Yes. As awful and ugly as that. He made me listen to a clip of it, and I wanted to vomit. I still do, just thinking about it. But I digress. So he had undeniable proof that infidelity had occurred. But then he went back and listened to other things -conversations and such between me and xOM. He was talking to me about it last night, and he talked more on how he can't get the conversations out of his head than the recording of sex (though that of course haunts him too). All of it plays and replays. And yet, he didn't HAVE to listen to them -of course it was his right -but he KNEW what had happened, and went back for more. And now it is all swirling in his head, and I don't know if it will ever fade or leave. 

Having your H answer questions will hopefully not be as agonizing as what I have made my H have to hear, but I tell you this just to show that there are pros and cons to having every minute detail. It is totally your call, and I am not trying to convince you one way or another, but I would encourage you to think on what level of detail do you want swirling in your head. You need the basics, without a doubt, but do you need the nitty-gritty? Will it really help you? As you truly want R, will it help it or hinder? Again, I'm not saying one way or another, since I think it totally depends on each couple. 

Also, here is something else I wanted to say: I thought I loved the xOM. He told me he loved me, and I said it back. I remember thinking, "My goodness, I feel like I'm in high school again!" That's because those feelings weren't real, but just some hopped up endorphin overload or something. Whether people believe it or not, I think the fog is totally real. I would have told you on DDay2 that I loved xOM. Within 2 days, that "love" bubble was popped, and I felt like the biggest idiot. I could see that it wasn't love, it was just some feel good fantasy that I had convinced myself was something real. When my world exploded, I found myself running away from xOM and running to my H. (Too little, too late, I know.) So what your husband might have said to xOW doesn't necessarily mean that he felt it after the A was discovered. And it certainly doesn't mean he feels it now. 

I have absolutely no positive feelings for the xOM. DD and I talked in the hot tub last night, and he was saying how much he would love to beat the eff out of him, and I was thinking that I would too. He didn't coerce me into doing anything, but he sure as hell didn't care about me either, since he was willing to nuke my world (he could obviously say the same about me). I cannot stand him, thinking about him makes me feel physically sick to my stomach.

So getting back to your question after waaaay too much typing. Him talking negatively about xOW now does not necessarily mean he's minimizing the emotional side. He could be like me where I admit I thought I had feelings and had allowed myself to care, but those feelings have been beyond destroyed, and it's hard even for me to believe that I actually believed they existed. 

Sorry this was crazy long. Got a lot in my head today. Hope there's a line or two that might provide a little insight though. 

Hugs and strength to you, margrace.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Ok, so it's been a while since I took the time to share some thoughts. And Mrs. M, your question got me thinking about some things. So here comes another NH2MR flow of consciousness. 

Oh yes, the anger. Rage, really. At least with me, I had many different flavors and intensities of anger and rage, especially over the first 6 to 9 months. I would often find myself holding anger in until it would boil over in a fit of rage. Over time, I got better at owning my anger, and sharing it in a more productive/less damaging way. More bite size pieces, if you will.  

Initially it was anger of the betrayal. "How could YOU do this to ME? You, the ONE person on this planet I trusted more than any other. How could you deceive me like this? How could you possibly justify this behavior to yourself?"

I was angry that I felt so alone in the world. I went through a long period where I didn't think I could ever trust anyone again.

Then I was angry that my life was not what I had envisioned it to be. I was angry that she had forever stained our marriage. I was angry that she ruined my idea of what marriage was meant to be. I felt she had stolen my future. 

I was furious that she had made bad decisions that now meant I could either keep my family together and try to wallow through the pain or I could divorce and split my family apart. Essentially, I believed that I had to pay for her bad decisions. She forced me into a situation where I had two options to pick from, both of which seemed to be sh!t sandwiches.

I was angry that she made the life I had built seem foolish. That in all that I had done over the last 10 years, there was nothing worth keeping. The home we had built, the family we had started were all things that she was willing to just cast aside. Me included.

Then I started to feel resentment and anger in what she was turning me into - an angry, untrusting, bitter guy with a shattered confidence.

So what turned all this around? Time and patience were two of the big drivers. On both of our parts. Her owning her actions, not blameshifting, and apologizing on a regular basis. Not putting defensive shields up when I got angry. Lots of communication, we would have long talks every night or two for the first couple months. I would ask questions, and she would do her best to honestly answer them. Then it became more like once or twice a week for the next several months.

But the biggest thing that helped me was spending lots of time reflecting. I started to realize that our marriage wasn't as perfect as I had envisioned before the affair. When I was honest with myself, I saw areas where we could do much, much better for eachother. And in NO WAY does this justify the decisions my wife made, but I began to realize that I was living my life and our marriage according to script. And I began to see that it should be more. That it could be more. Complacency was no longer tolerated.

I spent time asking what *I* wanted my life to be like in 5 years. Did *I* want to start over, build something new with someone new? Or did *I* want to commit to rebuilding a better, stronger version of the marriage we had started?

When I started to think about these things, and not just obsess on the betrayal and the pain, I began to feel empowered. I was back in control of my life. I started to regain my confidence, my personal strength. I realized I could let this event define me, or I could let what I did next define me. I was making the transition from victim to survivor. I cannot over emphasize the importance of rounding this corner, from victim to survivor.

Making decisions while living life as a victim means decisions based in fear, anger and the past. Making decisions while living life as a survivor is all about empowerment, confidence and the future.

And becoming the survivor is not limited to those in R. It is not about whether you stay and rebuild or leave and start new. It is about the frame of reference you choose to live within. Once you get to this point, all becomes so much clearer. So much more manageable. 

Mrs. M - your goal is to allow him the time and resources he needs to move from victim to survivor. It is a journey that he must largely make on his own. He will get there faster with your constant love, support, honest and transparency. But you cannot push him there, he must walk there on his own. Step by grueling step.

He will need to start thinking about what he wants in life. Looking further ahead and envisioning what he wants his life to be helps bring clarity to this. Do not try to talk about reconciling or your future together during his time reflecting, unless he brings it up and asks. If he feels you pushing him there, he will instinctively dig his heels in. 

Just continue to do the items I mentioned two paragraphs above. Let him *see* how sorry you are. Let him *see* how committed you are to being the woman you know he deserves. Don't tell him these things, *show him.* Your actions while he is making the transition from victim to survivor will largely drive his thinking.

Sorry there is no magic bullet. Just remind yourself that all of this work and all of this pain and suffering (on both your counts) will help build stronger boundaries for your marriage.

Good luck!


----------



## EI

old timer said:


> "Do these pants make my azz look fat?"
> 
> Brutally honesty: "Yes - like a water buffalo".
> 
> Compassionate honesty:* "I really like the black pants better".*
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Every woman knows that...... Ask B1 how many different colors of pants I have in my closet. I have "blue" jeans and "black" slacks..... There are NO other colors that I am willing to risk. The interesting part is that now that B1 only sees me through his "Testosterone colored glasses,"  I don't think he even cares what my bum looks like, anymore, as long as he gets to see it every once in a while! As long as I can get it into my size 4 jeans, I'm happy!


----------



## bfree

old timer said:


> "*Do these pants make my azz look fat*?"
> 
> Brutally honesty: "Yes - like a water buffalo".
> 
> Compassionate honesty: "I really like the black pants better".
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, its not your pants but I will happily go to the gym with you so that every pair of your pants looks fantastic.


----------



## happyman64

> We, throughout life, ALL of us, make some bad choices. It's how we handle them and what we do next that really counts.


Very wise words B1!

And in all aspects of our lives it is how we meet our failures head on, overcome the bad choices, choose to live good lives while working hard everyday for ourselves and our families is truly how we define ourselves as well as how others will judge us.


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Rookie, I'm sorry if my wording was wrong. "Brutal honesty" is a fairly common phrase in my head and simply reflects the fact that truth is hard. I do believe there are different ways to phrase the truth to be more or less hurtful, depending on your goal. But that's not the same as being dishonest. So I believe the emotional response to honesty can come from the giver as well as the receiver, if that makes any sense.


MM, the truth is only hard, if you haven't been or aren't being truthful. If you are, in fact, being truthful, then what is hard? There are indeed, different ways to phrase the truth, as long as it remains the truth. When you choose form over substance, then it becomes deceit, and who can heal if you are deceitful? By you, I mean all of us. That is why radical honesty works better for healing a marriage than soft soap. If you have been a cheater and you rationalize that you shouldn't tell the complete truth to your BS, then you are not truly remorseful nor are you showing love and respect to your partner, not to spare them, but to spare yourself further guilt feelings and embarrassment. I don't believe that true reconciliation can happen without radical honesty on the part of the WS.


----------



## Acabado

New epic post NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME. 
Dead on again. Thanks.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> MM, the truth is only hard, if you haven't been or aren't being truthful. If you are, in fact, being truthful, then what is hard? There are indeed, different ways to phrase the truth, as long as it remains the truth. When you choose form over substance, then it becomes deceit, and who can heal if you are deceitful? By you, I mean all of us. That is why radical honesty works better for healing a marriage than soft soap. If you have been a cheater and you rationalize that you shouldn't tell the complete truth to your BS, then you are not truly remorseful nor are you showing love and respect to your partner, not to spare them, but to spare yourself further guilt feelings and embarrassment. I don't believe that true reconciliation can happen without radical honesty on the part of the WS.


I think what is hard is knowing the truth hurts both you and your spouse. That's hard. It doesn't make it not right, but it can make it not easy. I think in general, people don't like to be the cause of other's pain. I'm not advocating not telling the complete truth. It's absolutely necessary and is ultimately the only path to healing for both. But that's not usually easy.


----------



## bfree

Nothing in life that is worthwhile is easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think what is hard is knowing the truth hurts both you and your spouse. That's hard. It doesn't make it not right, but it can make it not easy. I think in general, people don't like to be the cause of other's pain. I'm not advocating not telling the complete truth. It's absolutely necessary and is ultimately the only path to healing for both. But that's not usually easy.


MM, I don't know anything about infidelity that is easy. It is a hard road that we all must travel, Filled with bitterness, heartache, shame, and mistrust. In the end, what can we hope for? That our lives can be enriched and our character strengthened. That gentleness can replace the bitterness, love can replace the heartache, courage can replace the shame, and honesty can replace the mistrust.


----------



## Rookie4

Sergio Mendes And Brazil '66-The Look Of Love (1967) - YouTube This is the ultimate goal. To be able to look at your partner with love.


----------



## jim123

ChangingMe said:


> No. This is mine to carry. DD's burden is already staggering and wearing him down. I am unwilling to add another ounce to it, because quite honestly I don't think he could handle it.
> 
> And while an enormous portion of my grief is due to the pain I have caused my best friend and husband, a significant amount is due to the negative traits that I am finally admitting that I possess. Only I can deal with those; no one can help me. I have to look them head on, take control of them, and at the same time coax and build qualities within myself that I want to possess and that I can be proud of.
> 
> It's hard work, but there is a small amount of peace and strength in knowing that this is something I can do. It is not something you can just sit and wish for; it requires action and effort. It will not erase my past choices, but it gives me hope that I can be above doing those things ever again. And perhaps one day I will have an honest and true self-confidence that comes from knowing that I have made honorable choices that day and treated people with the respect and love that I claim to have for them.


I knew that would be your answer, 

Please understand that I am not use to reaching out to WS's so I hope this
comes accoss the right way.

A year ago you had the same issues and instead of going within your marriage and to you H and best friend you went outside.your M. Now you are doing the same thing.

What you are trying to resolve is at the center of DD issues. Your burden is his buden. He can not build a future with you unless it is resolved.

I know why you do not want to and I respect that. You ask for trust and should trust DD. By openning up to him will once again make him your best friend to him. You must R together.

Please do not get lost in the negatives without also looking at all the positives you do.


----------



## ChangingMe

jim123 said:


> I knew that would be your answer,
> 
> Please understand that I am not use to reaching out to WS's so I hope this
> comes accoss the right way.
> 
> A year ago you had the same issues and instead of going within your marriage and to you H and best friend you went outside.your M. Now you are doing the same thing.
> 
> What you are trying to resolve is at the center of DD issues. Your burden is his buden. He can not build a future with you unless it is resolved.
> 
> I know why you do not want to and I respect that. You ask for trust and should trust DD. By openning up to him will once again make him your best friend to him. You must R together.
> 
> Please do not get lost in the negatives without also looking at all the positives you do.


Jim, I appreciate you reaching out. I really do. You have been very kind towards me and concerned with DD, and that means more to me than you will know. 

Your point makes sense, and if DD and I both agreed we were in R (as opposed to me desperately hoping that this is the case), then I would agree with you. I hope some day that this will be true, and I can process and lean on DD with some of this. 

But there is another reason why I don't that I didn't share earlier, and that is because DD has flat out told me he doesn't care. He has told me that my pain is deserved and that it is mine to carry. I don't say this to complain about him or make him come off as an a-hole. He's not. He has a very valid point that I can't argue with. At this point, he does not care that I hurt, that I struggle, and I can't blame him. So I HAVE to carry this on my own. I can't ask him to help with something that he has already told me he is unwilling to deal with. 

So that's the real answer there. It's not that I'm trying to do this on my own, it's that I have to, and so I will. Again, please no one take this as me complaining about DD. He is a good man and kinder to me than I deserve.


----------



## jim123

In the end this is about him being kinder to himself. Anger destroys in the long run.


----------



## ChangingMe

jim123 said:


> In the end this is about him being kinder to himself. Anger destroys in the long run.


I pray daily that he will be able to let this go, and I swear it is more for his sake than it is for mine. That may not seem believable, but I swear it is. He is such a good man, always has been. To see the hate and anger in him kills me, because I feel like I have created it within him, as it was not there before.


----------



## margrace

ChangingMe said:


> Jim, I appreciate you reaching out. I really do. You have been very kind towards me and concerned with DD, and that means more to me than you will know.
> 
> Your point makes sense, and if DD and I both agreed we were in R (as opposed to me desperately hoping that this is the case), then I would agree with you. I hope some day that this will be true, and I can process and lean on DD with some of this.
> 
> But there is another reason why I don't that I didn't share earlier, and that is because DD has flat out told me he doesn't care. He has told me that my pain is deserved and that it is mine to carry. I don't say this to complain about him or make him come off as an a-hole. He's not. He has a very valid point that I can't argue with. At this point, he does not care that I hurt, that I struggle, and I can't blame him. So I HAVE to carry this on my own. I can't ask him to help with something that he has already told me he is unwilling to deal with.
> 
> So that's the real answer there. It's not that I'm trying to do this on my own, it's that I have to, and so I will. Again, please no one take this as me complaining about DD. He is a good man and kinder to me than I deserve.


jim, you spoke for me, too...

it's a hard one to untangle, cm. i get caught up in my hurt and shock and anger too. 

do you deserve your pain, cm? that word throws me off a bit, but i do agree that your pain is clearly among the consequences of your own past choices, so i guess i agree with the validity of dd's point in some sense.

but how long should you be alone with it? that seems like a different question. forever and ever? no matter what? no matter how remorseful you are, or how hard you work to understand it and address it? always all alone with it? 

all of us understand that R is not right for every couple on TAM. many BSs do not choose R, and we all respect that. 

your relentless commitment and caring and honesty and reassurance may someday help your H decide yes, we're working on R *together* -- or not. but if the answer is "not," then i worry about you trying to do something alone forever that no one can do alone forever.


----------



## bfree

I think we all have to reach a point where we let go of the pain we are experiencing before we can feel empathy for those that hurt us. I know in my marriage thehate and anger from my first marriage was interfering in the connection with my wife. It wasn't until I was able to release all that that I could fully integrate myself. An unintended consequence was that I now have so much empathy for my ex and feel so much sadness for the life she chose.

Margrace, I was thinking of you this morning and praying that you would eventually be able to let go of the hurt inside. Hopefully as your H continues to open up and that wall continues to be broken down you will find peace and tranquility.

CM, I honestly believe that DD feels if he commits to R then he is allowing you to "get away with it." That is why he cannot let go and state he is going to R. That is why he cannot forgive you or even more importantly, forgive himself. Its a vicious cycle and I honestly don't have any answers. Hopefully someday he will get there but it may not be until he is faced with the prospect of losing you that he can see that he really wants you.


----------



## margrace

bfree said:


> I think we all have to reach a point where we let go of the pain we are experiencing before we can feel empathy for those that hurt us. I know in my marriage thehate and anger from my first marriage was interfering in the connection with my wife. It wasn't until I was able to release all that that I could fully integrate myself. An unintended consequence was that I now have so much empathy for my ex and feel so much sadness for the life she chose.
> 
> Margrace, I was thinking of you this morning and praying that you would eventually be able to let go of the hurt inside. Hopefully as your H continues to open up and that wall continues to be broken down you will find peace and tranquility.
> 
> CM, I honestly believe that DD feels if he commits to R then he is allowing you to "get away with it." That is why he cannot let go and state he is going to R. That is why he cannot forgive you or even more importantly, forgive himself. Its a vicious cycle and I honestly don't have any answers. Hopefully someday he will get there but it may not be until he is faced with the prospect of losing you that he can see that he really wants you.


oh, thank you, bfree, i want that too


----------



## rrrbbbttt

ChangingMe said:


> I pray daily that he will be able to let this go, and I swear it is more for his sake than it is for mine. That may not seem believable, but I swear it is. He is such a good man, always has been. To see the hate and anger in him kills me, because I feel like I have created it within him, as it was not there before.


Sorry, but you did create it.


----------



## calvin

rrrbbbttt said:


> Sorry, but you did create it.


Yes she did and it sucks but I'm willing to bet that she has a good chance of fixing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

ChangingMe said:


> I pray daily that he will be able to let this go, and I swear it is more for his sake than it is for mine. That may not seem believable, but I swear it is. He is such a good man, always has been. To see the hate and anger in him kills me, because I feel like I have created it within him, as it was not there before.


He is going to be angry for quite some time. I can honestly tell you that I hadn't gotten angry with Regret for months! Like, literally since maybe October.

Last weekend, that's all it took was for her to make a "wrong" comment and I let loose. It wasn't pretty. I literally felt as if it was March 6th again (2012).

I was as taken aback as she was.

But ya know what she did? She sat there quietly. She didn't dispute or respond except to apologize for her comment.

DD is going to be angry for quite some time. It's just the way it is, and it may sound harsh...but I don't blame him. He _has_ to go through it. If he comes out the other side and still chooses to be by your side, then you both will be very happy. And that goes for any of us who actively post in this thread. 

It's not over. Not by a long shot. Just keep working on yourselves and goodness will come. I truly believe that.


----------



## calvin

I don't know,sometimes things are good and sometimes they jus seem FUBAR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

SomedayDig said:


> He is going to be angry for quite some time. I can honestly tell you that I hadn't gotten angry with Regret for months! Like, literally since maybe October.
> 
> Last weekend, that's all it took was for her to make a "wrong" comment and I let loose. It wasn't pretty. I literally felt as if it was March 6th again (2012).
> 
> I was as taken aback as she was.
> 
> But ya know what she did? She sat there quietly. She didn't dispute or respond except to apologize for her comment.
> 
> DD is going to be angry for quite some time. It's just the way it is, and it may sound harsh...but I don't blame him. He _has_ to go through it. If he comes out the other side and still chooses to be by your side, then you both will be very happy. And that goes for any of us who actively post in this thread.
> 
> It's not over. Not by a long shot. Just keep working on yourselves and goodness will come. I truly believe that.


You are so right Dig.
I have had some struggeling moments over the past few days. RE-opened some things, asked some more questions, some tough ones, and ask a few things of EI. Every single time I dig something up, EI sits there and listens and allows me to get it out, then with compassion she responds. I can't say that I am getting angry at her, but I am still hurting and pursuing that hurt sometimes, letting it out. EI couldn't be better at handeling it and me.

It's not over, I don't guess it will be for a long time. It's definitely better, far better than a few months ago. But there are still times in the day when it hurts, Oh my God does it hurt. But like I have said and keep saying, I want happiness and I am certain I can have that with EI. Outside these hurtful moments are some really amazingly great times, blissful and nice. These times are what tell me it's all worth it, that I can do this and I will eventually heal. 

But your right, I think we can be quick to snap, for me it's usually tears and pain. See a t.v show with infidelity, here a triggering song and bam, down I go in seconds flat. From happy to intense pain in seconds, it happens. Then there are the rest of the times with EI, these are so good, we are so in tune to each other, so committed, so in love that they far outweigh those bad moments.


----------



## old timer

SomedayDig said:


> DD is going to be angry for quite some time. It's just the way it is, and it may sound harsh...but I don't blame him. He _has_ to go through it. If he comes out the other side and still chooses to be by your side, then you both will be very happy. And that goes for any of us who actively post in this thread.
> 
> It's not over. Not by a long shot. Just keep working on yourselves and goodness will come. I truly believe that.


*
SomedayDig*:

Just read through your "My Side of the Story" thread...

All I can say is "Wow" - just "Wow".

Paraphrasing what one poster said in that thread: _You are a man I'd be proud to call a friend_.

I agree. You are a helluva man. 

Best of luck to you and Regret. I think y'all got this.


----------



## SomedayDig

B1 said:


> You are so right Dig.
> I have had some struggeling moments over the past few days. RE-opened some things, asked some more questions, some tough ones, and ask a few things of EI. Every single time I dig something up, EI sits there and listens and allows me to get it out, then with compassion she responds. I can't say that I am getting angry at her, but I am still hurting and pursuing that hurt sometimes, letting it out. EI couldn't be better at handeling it and me.
> 
> It's not over, I don't guess it will be for a long time. It's definitely better, far better than a few months ago. But there are still times in the day when it hurts, Oh my God does it hurt. But like I have said and keep saying, I want happiness and I am certain I can have that with EI. *Outside these hurtful moments are some really amazingly great times, blissful and nice. These times are what tell me it's all worth it, that I can do this and I will eventually heal. *
> 
> But your right, I think we can be quick to snap, for me it's usually tears and pain. See a t.v show with infidelity, here a triggering song and bam, down I go in seconds flat. From happy to intense pain in seconds, it happens. Then there are the rest of the times with EI, these are so good, we are so in tune to each other, so committed, so in love that they far outweigh those bad moments.


Yes!


----------



## SomedayDig

old timer said:


> *
> SomedayDig*:
> 
> Just read through your "My Side of the Story" thread...
> 
> All I can say is "Wow" - just "Wow".
> 
> Paraphrasing what one poster said in that thread: _You are a man I'd be proud to call a friend_.
> 
> I agree. You are a helluva man.
> 
> Best of luck to you and Regret. I think y'all got this.


Thank you for your well wishes and comments. Yeah, it's a pretty heavy story. I'm hoping for a happy ending.

Wait. That sounds like I'm going to a massage parlor.

Or maybe that could be our date night fantasy tonight!! LMFAO! I am _so_ gonna go buy her a sexy kimono right now!


----------



## ChangingMe

margrace said:


> but how long should you be alone with it? that seems like a different question. forever and ever? no matter what? no matter how remorseful you are, or how hard you work to understand it and address it? always all alone with it?
> 
> i worry about you trying to do something alone forever that no one can do alone forever.


Honestly, I don't know, margrace. DD has asked me how long will I be willing to tolerate a marriage where we are more roommates than partners. A different question, but another one that seems to be wondering what timeline I have set out. 

My answer to him is that I want to wait and see how this plays out. I cannot look more than a day or two into the future. It is way too hard to gauge where we will be next month, next year, 5 years from now. I pray with each of those we will be doing better and better, but I don't know, and I can't even fathom a guess. All I can do is focus on today, try to make myself a little better today, do the right thing today, and then get a bit of sleep and do the same thing again tomorrow. 

Will DD always feel like he's feeling? God, I hope not. He hasn't felt this way every single day since DDay. We have had some good days -even good weeks. There have been times when he has told me he loves me, that he wants to get past this, that he wants to stay with me, just like there are times that he says he will never forgive me, that this is a dealbreaker, that he will divorce me. I believe he has meant every one of those things in the moment he has said them. He's going through such a wide range of emotions, and I don't think he has any clue as to what he will feel on any given day. 

So I'm not going to worry that I will be suffering on my own for forever. I'll be dealing with it today, and I can do that.


----------



## CantSitStill

I understand what you mean CM. Calvin's distance tword me is so hard. I just keep hoping and praying. Like you there are days he feels different. I don't wanna give up and I feel deep down DD and Calvin don't either and that's why they are barely hanging on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

bfree said:


> CM, I honestly believe that DD feels if he commits to R then he is allowing you to "get away with it." That is why he cannot let go and state he is going to R. That is why he cannot forgive you or even more importantly, forgive himself. Its a vicious cycle and I honestly don't have any answers. Hopefully someday he will get there but it may not be until he is faced with the prospect of losing you that he can see that he really wants you.


I think the "getting away with it" thought is a very real concern of his. He has voiced this to me and on the forum, I believe. I know it's easy for me to say that I don't think I have gotten away with anything, that the last nearly 9 months have been the worst, most stressful, and painful time in my life. But I can see where I still am blessed to be in my house, with my family intact, and with a husband who has not deserted me even with the pain I have caused him. So there are definitely things that I have that I don't deserve. I don't know the answer to this issue either. I think it's something he will have to come to terms with on his own somehow. 



rrrbbbttt said:


> Sorry, but you did create it.


Right. That's what I said. 



SomedayDig said:


> He is going to be angry for quite some time. I can honestly tell you that I hadn't gotten angry with Regret for months! Like, literally since maybe October.
> 
> Last weekend, that's all it took was for her to make a "wrong" comment and I let loose. It wasn't pretty. I literally felt as if it was March 6th again (2012).
> 
> I was as taken aback as she was.
> 
> But ya know what she did? She sat there quietly. She didn't dispute or respond except to apologize for her comment.
> 
> DD is going to be angry for quite some time. It's just the way it is, and it may sound harsh...but I don't blame him. He _has_ to go through it. If he comes out the other side and still chooses to be by your side, then you both will be very happy. And that goes for any of us who actively post in this thread.
> 
> It's not over. Not by a long shot. Just keep working on yourselves and goodness will come. I truly believe that.


Thank you, Dig, your post is very helpful. I know we are only a short distance down this long, painful road. I know that the emotions come and go and range in level of intensity. I am trying to do all I can to be there for him in the moment, to listen to the anger and hurt and pain as it comes out, to apologize, offer reassurances, and try to do whatever else he might need or want. I do not get defensive, I do not walk away. I cry sometimes, and he asks should he stop talking, should he just hold things in, and I tell him no. He needs to get it out, I know this. And I need to hear it. I tell him though that his words hurt, and the tears are a result of that, but that doesn't mean he has to keep from saying what he needs to say.

I don't blame him for feeling anything that he is feeling. I hate that he's feeling it, and I hate that I've caused him to feel this way.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Sorry you are going through this CM but DD has a lot of emotions on his plate.

Just so you are aware this will never go away in DD's mind. He will have triggers the rest of his life because he is attempting to R and if he works through the triggers and is successfully in R they will never go away, may lessen but in times of stress they work their way back out.

This is a long road you and DD are on and you are only in the initial stage.


----------



## seasalt

ChangingMe,

I direct this post to you for no other reason than because you were the last wayward spouse to post here.

"Getting over it". When I hear that phrase when related to an infidelity I think to myself that the only real way to completely get over it is to completely get over the cheating spouse. I believe that's the last thing that you would want. Remembering your past posts it sounds like you'd be happy having DevastedDad bring up your betrayal while in a glider for two on the porch of the nursing home.

Marriage, even one without cheating, comes with good and bad and in the long run if you can say that the good outweighs the bad you're ahead of the game. If your husband was to add up the plusses and minuses of his marriage he would have to acknowledge the preponderance of the weight that would have to be given to a 100% remorseful wife and 100% of his children in his life versus the uncertainty and regret of completely losing what he had.

I've pointed out and others have also commented that I have never cheated or been cheated on in forty years (next month) of marriage but I consider myself an empathetic thinker (I just made that up) and hate to see people, even strangers, miss opportunites to make bad situations better by taking an honest analytic look at them.

Good luck,

Seasalt


----------



## bfree

seasalt said:


> ChangingMe,
> 
> I direct this post to you for no other reason than because you were the last wayward spouse to post here.
> 
> "Getting over it". When I hear that phrase when related to an infidelity I think to myself that the only real way to completely get over it is to completely get over the cheating spouse. I believe that's the last thing that you would want. Remembering your past posts it sounds like you'd be happy having DevastedDad bring up your betrayal while in a glider for two on the porch of the nursing home.
> 
> Marriage, even one without cheating, comes with good and bad and in the long run if you can say that the good outweighs the bad you're ahead of the game. If your husband was to add up the plusses and minuses of his marriage he would have to acknowledge the preponderance of the weight that would have to be given to a 100% remorseful wife and 100% of his children in his life versus the uncertainty and regret of completely losing what he had.
> 
> I've pointed out and others have also commented that I have never cheated or been cheated on in forty years (next month) of marriage but I consider myself an empathetic thinker (I just made that up) and hate to see people, even strangers, miss opportunites to make bad situations better by taking an honest analytic look at them.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Seasalt


When I hear "getting over it" I think of different things. If its in regards to rug sweeping an affair it has a very negative connotation. But if its used in conjunction with a reconciliation that has been worked at diligently by both spouses then to me the phrase "getting over it" means the process of forgiveness and/or acceptance.


----------



## CantSitStill

yeah a friend that I don't really talk to anymore always was saying "he should be over it by now, it's not like you had sex with him" People don't get it..They just don't get it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> yeah a friend that I don't really talk to anymore always was saying "he should be over it by now, it's not like you had sex with him" People don't get it..They just don't get it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah,the same one that used to yuck it up on fb with you and om,I seen the post
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I used to like her,not anymore.you guys still talk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

No honey it was Jerri
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Kelli,you both still talk
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

the other friend and I haven't talked hardly at all..but I don't talk to anyone anymore..I have neglected all of my friends
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Did yesterday
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

my gosh i talked to her for the first time the other day since you facebooked her and got into it with her..you are just mad right now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Well yes i asked her if someone was dead that we know..really??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I am doing absolutely nothing behind your back
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'm done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I mean posting today
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

But no I don't like you having contact with her,I read the post and she thought what you were doing was ok,she even joked with POS a lot
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> I mean posting today
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good cause Bandits back and he has his 2x4 handy


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Well yes i asked her if someone was dead that we know..really??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, if this friend in any way supported you having an affair then she really isn't any friend at all. A friend that is not a friend of the marriage is an enemy of the marriage.


----------



## CantSitStill

Well him and that friend got into it and made up and he decided we can still be friends yet I do not talk to her, so to bring up that I texted with her about someone dying and having a problem with it is sending mixed signals. That's what happens when people get mad, they look for other things and everything else to get mad about. He should be glad I don't talk to her or anyone anymore. I have seriously stopped talking to all friends. I do not want to burden them with my problems. This is not an issue that hasn't already been resolved. Calvin may stop posting but will continue to read threads called "your WS don't love you, they cheated on you" and making threads asking whether it was an EA or PA..it wa an affair! Yes it was no matter if it was physical or not. It was wrong and hurts just as bad. I am so dang sorry I am sorry I am an.d will be forever sorry. I can't undo it but I can be a better person now. I am sorry. If I am burdening you then I guess you have some thinking to do about your happiness. Does being with me make you happy or unhappy? I know that I love you and am very happy with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> I mean posting today
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, I consider this improvement, seriously!


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Well him and that friend got into it and made up and he decided we can still be friends yet I do not talk to her, so to bring up that I texted with her about someone dying and having a problem with it is sending mixed signals. That's what happens when people get mad, they look for other things and everything else to get mad about. He should be glad I don't talk to her or anyone anymore. I have seriously stopped talking to all friends. I do not want to burden them with my problems. This is not an issue that hasn't already been resolved. Calvin may stop posting but will continue to read threads called "your WS don't love you, they cheated on you" and making threads asking whether it was an EA or PA..it wa an affair! Yes it was no matter if it was physical or not. It was wrong and hurts just as bad. I am so dang sorry I am sorry I am an.d will be forever sorry. I can't undo it but I can be a better person now. I am sorry. If I am burdening you then I guess you have some thinking to do about your happiness. Does being with me make you happy or unhappy? I know that I love you and am very happy with you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, so calvin if you agreed that this friend is ok then you have determined its a friend of the marriage and you shouldn't have a problem with them talking.

In regard to calvin making that thread about EA/PA, I can see how he is still trying to wrap his mind around things. He's always said that if the A was a PA he couldn't get past it. He's just going over things in his mind. I think its part of the forgiveness process. He has to come to terms with all aspects of the affair in order to finally let it go. Reading threads here on TAM can certainly trigger a BS. Heck it can trigger a WS too! If it gets to be too much then I suggest a break. Take a week (or more) off from TAM just to catch your breath and focus on each other. For what its worth I don't see your affair as a PA since it did not escalate. You had every opportunity to take it further and didn't. So in my mind I still consider your affair a EA. Not that it makes it any better but that's how I see it.


----------



## calvin

I was wrong,I asked her to call her and end the friendship,css didn't want to do that and I felt I was taking away a friend of hers but the more I thought about the text between her friend and POS on fb the more I don't like this friend.
She literally joked with the POS a lot and early in R I wasn't sure what to do.
Now I can't stand her.
If it would have been the other way around.....

Close to saying fvck everything,just to damn fvcking hard.
I didn't put us in this fvcked up position.....good night.
Sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> I was wrong,I asked her to call her and end the friendship,css didn't want to do that and I felt I was taking away a friend of hers but the more I thought about the text between her friend and POS on fb the more I don't like this friend.
> She literally joked with the POS a lot and early in R I wasn't sure what to do.
> Now I can't stand her.
> If it would have been the other way around.....
> 
> Close to saying fvck everything,just to damn fvcking hard.
> I didn't put us in this fvcked up position.....good night.
> Sorry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, CSS if this is true then you should have mentioned this. I think I'd have a problem with this friend as well. You can make more friends and better ones I would imagine. You are a very bubbly person and someone people want to be around. Lose this friend. Part of the price that WS pay is the loss of friends that supported the affair. At the very least you know this person triggers calvin so its a sacrifice you should be happy to make. At least that's my opinion. I hope other will chime in as well.

Just to add: When I was single and picking up lots of women I had a friend that was very often my wingman. When I got married I still maintained close contact with him even though he was still in "that lifestyle." At some point Mrs bfree asked me to discontinue contact with him because she said he made her feel uncomfortable. Now, this friend had always been respectful of my wife but I made the decision to end our friendship for the sake of my marriage and out of respect for my wife.


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> I was wrong,I asked her to call her and end the friendship,css didn't want to do that and I felt I was taking away a friend of hers but the more I thought about the text between her friend and POS on fb the more I don't like this friend.
> She literally joked with the POS a lot and early in R I wasn't sure what to do.
> Now I can't stand her.
> If it would have been the other way around.....
> 
> Close to saying fvck everything,just to damn fvcking hard.
> I didn't put us in this fvcked up position.....good night.
> Sorry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, you are allowing yourself to get all wound up. 

CSS did the right thing, eventually.

You could not have forgiven a PA? Neither could I. Until I found I was in that position. And did forgive a PA.

Some people think we BSs shouldn't forgive a EA or a PA? Well, so what? Who *cares* about them and their weird views? 

This section is called: "Coping with Infidelity" not: "Kick them to the Kerb!"


----------



## old timer

calvin said:


> Close to saying fvck everything,just to damn fvcking hard.
> I didn't put us in this fvcked up position.....good night.
> Sorry
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


calvin - been following this thread w your and CSSs discourse here. 

One observation I've made is that you sometimes seem to want to throw up your hands and give up late in the day like this. 

To me, it begs the question: Do you let job related stress negatively affect your outlook on yours and CSSs relationship?

It seems so to me. Just sayin...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Got everyone mad at me,CSS is still babying our 19 year old daughter and trying to still do things for her like making dentist appointments.
Daughter needs tax returns to apply for college aid which I doubt she will get because of all the overtime I work.
CSS and my daughter said they needed copies of w 2s,fine now they need the returns,I will not go pick them up.
I do all the finances,home budget,sit down and pay the bills
Do our retirement,and a lot more....a LOT more while some in the family take it easy.
I have tried to get some help and all I get are empty promises,my phone was blowing up again like crazy while I was just out getting things done,CSS got in a fight with our daughter,css is at the bar,she did text me and invite me but I'm tired.
Daughter is demanding stuff from me right now.
I feel like I'm being drawn and quartered,again.
I can do everything.
Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

old timer said:


> calvin - been following this thread w your and CSSs discourse here.
> 
> One observation I've made is that you sometimes seem to want to throw up your hands and give up late in the day like this.
> 
> To me, it begs the question: Do you let job related stress negatively affect your outlook on yours and CSSs relationship?
> 
> It seems so to me. Just sayin...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OT,to be honest.Everything falls on me,or at least it seems that way.
I'm wore out and I'm ready to say screw it.
The POS was everything she wanted,I'm getting to the point where I don't care
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Ugh,not good.
Why bother?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I am sitting at the bar alone..sure wish you would come
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

FUBAR
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Calvin...do you really and truly love CSS?

CSS...do you really and truly love Calvin?

I know that's basic stuff, but I'm seriously asking you both to answer with complete honesty. No joke. No f'ng faking it either.


----------



## calvin

Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I'll wait for CSS to reply to finish my thought...


----------



## calvin

She went to a pub...our pub.
She texted that she just got hit on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Okay...get the f*ck off TAM and get over there. You love her, you say. Get the f*ck over there and be with your wife. Love her, man. F*ck all this other bullsnot going on here. You've got 2,887 posts in your thread in the Private Section. Get off TAM.

Go to your pub. It's Friday f'ng night for God's sake. As a matter of fact, go and have a shot of Jameson for me. I want you to go there and you and CSS both stay off TAM for 48 hours. 

Be together. Be there with each other. Sit. Talk. Be quiet.

Just f'ng be, Bro.


----------



## calvin

She' s home.I'm not posting for awhile
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

yes I absoultely love him with all my heart
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Okay. Both of ya's love each other. You've now said that within a half an hour on this forum.

So.

F'ng LOVE each other then!

You guys have over 9,000 posts in your thread. I hate to be the a$$hole tonite and come off as such, but I really don't want to see you guys post for 48 hours. I'm not kidding.

F'ng LOVE each other and quit TAM for just 48 hours.

Be together. Alone. Without any kind of need to interact with any of us here.

Let it go for 48 hours. TAM that is. Let. It. Go.

F'ng LOVE each other. Forget all this other stupid sh-t. It'll be here Monday.


----------



## EI

Dig, that was an excellent speech! This is just one of the many reasons I love this thread. This is the real deal..... real people, real lives.... such incredible support for one another.

B1 and I are returning home from our Friday night (go out to dinner night.) Steak & Lobster...... and 2 tall Stella Artois's..... both for B1. Now, he wants to go home and get naked...... Gotta go.......... 

I love all of you guys!

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Got everyone mad at me,CSS is still babying our 19 year old daughter and trying to still do things for her like making dentist appointments.
> Daughter needs tax returns to apply for college aid which I doubt she will get because of all the overtime I work.
> CSS and my daughter said they needed copies of w 2s,fine now they need the returns,I will not go pick them up.
> I do all the finances,home budget,sit down and pay the bills
> Do our retirement,and a lot more....a LOT more while some in the family take it easy.
> I have tried to get some help and all I get are empty promises,my phone was blowing up again like crazy while I was just out getting things done,CSS got in a fight with our daughter,css is at the bar,she did text me and invite me but I'm tired.
> Daughter is demanding stuff from me right now.
> I feel like I'm being drawn and quartered,again.
> I can do everything.
> Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This happens because you are a man and your wife and daughter are both girls and can't function without your support.

(Oh! Did that come across as sexist?)


----------



## MattMatt

EI said:


> Dig, that was an excellent speech! This is just one of the many reasons I love this thread. This is the real deal..... real people, real lives.... such incredible support for one another.
> 
> B1 and I are returning home from our Friday night (go out to dinner night.) Steak & Lobster...... and 2 tall Stella Artois's..... both for B1. Now, he wants to go home and get naked...... Gotta go..........
> 
> I love all of you guys!
> 
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stella Artois? Nice drink!:smthumbup:

Have fun!


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> OT,to be honest.Everything falls on me,or at least it seems that way.
> I'm wore out and I'm ready to say screw it.
> *The POS was everything she wanted,*I'm getting to the point where I don't care
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, yeah! He sure was!


----------



## bfree

MattMatt said:


> Oh, yeah! He sure was!


My tea just came pouring outa my nose.


----------



## Lister

ChangingMe said:


> I have no answers for you, MrsM, but wanted to say that I right there with you and also want help when the anger hits DD.
> 
> I do think talking regularly is key and bottling up always seems to lead to a blow-up. One thing I have been guilty of is waiting for him to bring the subject up at times, and he told me last night that there are times he is holding his breath in hopes that I will ask how he is, how we are, and I don't. I felt horrible. I try to gauge where he's at, but I don't always specifically ask, and I need to. I think perhaps we can avoid some blow-ups if I check in more regularly.
> 
> The anger is hard, I know. For both the BS and the WS.


Hi CM, This really strikes a chord for me, thank you. I often just don't know how to raise the subject even though I know i should. It's the heavy lifting I suppose. I'm afraid often of what the answer will be to the question, 'how are you?' so i hold off asking it until it's too late.

I wonder if i could seek your (and everyone else's) advice on the subject of marriage counselling. SG and i had a counsellor who quite frankly was not up to the job. She didn't challenge me at all on my behaviour (TT etc) and seemed to focus more on SG's need to move on than on my behaviours. As a result we have stopped seeing a MC, but both feel it would be really useful to find another one but want to avoid a repeat performance of the first counsellor. 

Are there any insightful questions we can ask a MC before going to see them that might give us an insight into their capacity to help us? Given our time on TAM I'm almost worried that we will end up paying someone who knows less about the issues and emotions involved in attempting R than we do. That would be rather like going to an expensive restaurant and being served something you could cook at home yourself for a third of the price.

Any advice greatly appreciated.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> My tea just came pouring outa my nose.


Jeez, fella! That's a funny place to put yer tea?:scratchhead:


----------



## bfree

Lister said:


> Hi CM, This really strikes a chord for me, thank you. I often just don't know how to raise the subject even though I know i should. It's the heavy lifting I suppose. I'm afraid often of what the answer will be to the question, 'how are you?' so i hold off asking it until it's too late.
> 
> I wonder if i could seek your (and everyone else's) advice on the subject of marriage counselling. SG and i had a counsellor who quite frankly was not up to the job. She didn't challenge me at all on my behaviour (TT etc) and seemed to focus more on SG's need to move on than on my behaviours. As a result we have stopped seeing a MC, but both feel it would be really useful to find another one but want to avoid a repeat performance of the first counsellor.
> 
> Are there any insightful questions we can ask a MC before going to see them that might give us an insight into their capacity to help us? Given our time on TAM I'm almost worried that we will end up paying someone who knows less about the issues and emotions involved in attempting R than we do. That would be rather like going to an expensive restaurant and being served something you could cook at home yourself for a third of the price.
> 
> Any advice greatly appreciated.


You need to find a counselor that specializes or is at least very familiar with the issues surrounding infidelity in a marriage. Sadly most say they are but really aren't. The best question I can think of, and one that seems to be recommended here on TAM a lot, is to ask the counselor specifically if he/she believes that a WS needs to be held firmly accountable in the case of an affair. Ask how the counseling sessions would go in that circumstance. Also a good thing to ask would be if they are familiar with Dr. Harley. If the counselor if familiar with Dr. Harley then you can at least know that they've at least investigated seriously the issues surrounding infidelity and the impact on a marriage. Lister, if you haven't seen this video of Dr. Harley I would suggest you watch it now. Its very sobering and heartbreaking.

Infidelity: What every couple should know - YouTube


----------



## B1

bfree said:


> You need to find a counselor that specializes or is at least very familiar with the issues surrounding infidelity in a marriage. Sadly most say they are but really aren't. The best question I can think of, and one that seems to be recommended here on TAM a lot, is to ask the counselor specifically if he/she believes that a WS needs to be held firmly accountable in the case of an affair. Ask how the counseling sessions would go in that circumstance. Also a good thing to ask would be if they are familiar with Dr. Harley. If the counselor if familiar with Dr. Harley then you can at least know that they've at least investigated seriously the issues surrounding infidelity and the impact on a marriage. Lister, if you haven't seen this video of Dr. Harley I would suggest you watch it now. Its very sobering and heartbreaking.
> 
> Infidelity: What every couple should know - YouTube


Thank you Bfree for posting that link. I think EVERY WS should watch it, and the BS too. It sure validates A BS's pain!

Still, I think it will be the BS's who cry when watching it and not the WS's. Having my pain validated brings me to tears every time. It's just impossible for a WS to truly know this pain,
It's far beyond anything I can put into words.


----------



## bfree

B1 said:


> Thank you Bfree for posting that link. I think EVERY WS should watch it, and the BS too. It sure validates A BS's pain!
> 
> Still, I think it will be the BS's who cry when watching it and not the WS's. Having my pain validated brings me to tears every time. It's just impossible for a WS to truly know this pain,
> It's far beyond anything I can put into words.


I don't know about that. I can see a lot of the WS that are really remorseful crying when they watch that video. Heck, my wife cried and she hasn't been unfaithful. She cried because she knew how hurt I was when my ex cheated on me. I think anyone who can be empathetic toward another would have an emotional reaction to Dr. Harley's words.


----------



## CantSitStill

Sorry about yesterday, I shouldn't have been fighting with calvin on your thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow I listened to the entire video and it was good, it also gives me hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Wow I listened to the entire video and it was good, it also gives me hope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, me too. B1 was wrong....... This WS is boo hooing. B1 and our youngest son just went to the gun range for a while. I'm home alone, except for our s/n son, and I started reading our thread. I found the video and watched it. I do understand what B1 meant when he said having his pain validated brings him to tears. I think it comes back to that a lot. We all desperately need to be validated. I really do hate what I did and I hate that he is suffering because of it. I hate that no matter how sorry I am that I was unfaithful and no matter how sorry I am that I hurt him with my infidelity..... No matter what I ever say or ever do, forever, that it will NEVER be enough to erase his pain. I'm not feeling sorry for myself, I am feeling devastated for him. I hate that..... because I am a fixer and I really can't fix this..... Not completely. 

Our daughter is 25 and our son-in-law is 26. They have a precious, if not, terribly spoiled, 18 month old son. They will be married 7 years in June. I can't tell you how proud we are of both of them. Yes, they married young after dating for 2 years. They are a very spiritual and faithful young Christian couple who "waited" for marriage. They both worked all throughout their teens and he was very responsible with money. They had a brand new starter home built while they were engaged and closed on it the day before their wedding. They both worked and went to school. He will graduate from university with a degree in Industrial Engineering in 2 more months that he has been working on for the past 9 years. She didn't stop working until the moment her water broke....... Do I sound too proud? I am proud. They have already accomplished, at 25 and 26, things that some people never accomplish. They're genuinely happy and in love and are "working" on adding another little bundle of joy to their family. Now, they're starting to look at bigger, nicer homes with B's long awaited graduation on the horizon. 

What is my point in sharing all of this? I'm going to buy them Dr. Harley's book, "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair Proof Marriage," now. I think that one of the many things I have learned throughout all of this is that preventing an affair, would have been so much easier than trying to heal from one. One thing that I do believe with all of my heart is that we are ALL susceptible to having an affair. I know that so many people will disagree with that....... Just over two years ago, I would have been one of them.

Marriage is a partnership. Yes, we are all responsible, to a degree, for our own happiness. But, when we enter into a marriage, we do so because we want, need and desire a partner to share our life with. Healthy communication is essential.... and it goes both ways. We cannot control our spouses..... only ourselves. The absence of your spouse upholding "their" part of the relationship in no way absolves each of us from our own. I still don't have all of the answers that I'm looking for....... But, I keep trying to find them, every day. An unhappy marriage was a huge burden for both of us to carry. An unhappy marriage with infidelity added could be insurmountable. Is it? I don't know...... But, we are going to give it our best shot.......


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Sorry about yesterday, I shouldn't have been fighting with calvin on your thread
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No need to apologize CSS, and btw it's everyone's thread, yours too.


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## happyman64

> But, we are going to give it our best shot.......


Let me fix this last sentence for you because I know you must have made a typo.



> But, we are going to keep trying until we succeed.......


 

Love you guys!


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## bfree

EI said:


> Yeah, me too. B1 was wrong....... This WS is boo hooing. B1 and our youngest son just went to the gun range for a while. I'm home alone, except for our s/n son, and I started reading our thread. I found the video and watched it. I do understand what B1 meant when he said having his pain validated brings him to tears. I think it comes back to that a lot. We all desperately need to be validated. I really do hate what I did and I hate that he is suffering because of it. I hate that no matter how sorry I am that I was unfaithful and no matter how sorry I am that I hurt him with my infidelity..... No matter what I ever say or ever do, forever, that it will NEVER be enough to erase his pain. I'm not feeling sorry for myself, I am feeling devastated for him. I hate that..... because I am a fixer and I really can't fix this..... Not completely.
> 
> Our daughter is 25 and our son-in-law is 26. They have a precious, if not, terribly spoiled, 18 month old son. They will be married 7 years in June. I can't tell you how proud we are of both of them. Yes, they married young after dating for 2 years. They are a very spiritual and faithful young Christian couple who "waited" for marriage. They both worked all throughout their teens and he was very responsible with money. They had a brand new starter home built while they were engaged and closed on it the day before their wedding. They both worked and went to school. He will graduate from university with a degree in Industrial Engineering in 2 more months that he has been working on for the past 9 years. She didn't stop working until the moment her water broke....... Do I sound too proud? I am proud. They have already accomplished, at 25 and 26, things that some people never accomplish. They're genuinely happy and in love and are "working" on adding another little bundle of joy to their family. Now, they're starting to look at bigger, nicer homes with B's long awaited graduation on the horizon.
> 
> What is my point in sharing all of this? I'm going to buy them Dr. Harley's book, "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair Proof Marriage," now. I think that one of the many things I have learned throughout all of this is that preventing an affair, would have been so much easier than trying to heal from one. One thing that I do believe with all of my heart is that we are ALL susceptible to having an affair. I know that so many people will disagree with that....... Just over two years ago, I would have been one of them.
> 
> Marriage is a partnership. Yes, we are all responsible, to a degree, for our own happiness. But, when we enter into a marriage, we do so because we want, need and desire a partner to share our life with. Healthy communication is essential.... and it goes both ways. We cannot control our spouses..... only ourselves. The absence of your spouse upholding "their" part of the relationship in no way absolves each of us from our own. I still don't have all of the answers that I'm looking for....... But, I keep trying to find them, every day. An unhappy marriage was a huge burden for both of us to carry. An unhappy marriage with infidelity added could be insurmountable. Is it? I don't know...... But, we are going to give it our best shot.......


I had no doubt that if you watched the video you would react exactly as you did. I see a lot of Mrs bfree in you EI. You have such a good soul and really feel for people, just like my wife. Getting your daughter and son-in-law His Needs Her Needs is a very good idea. You can never have enough knowledge and you can never be too prepared. I completely agree with you. We are all susceptible to affairs no matter how vehemently we may protest. I know I am susceptible. I have no doubt. I know Mrs bfree is susceptible as well. That is why we work so hard at our marriage. If one of us sees things heading down a dangerous path we will give the other a nudge back in the right direction. Frankly its mostly her nudging me though.

I do have to correct you on two points. You said that you can't fix this. Technically that may be true but you and B1 can fix this TOGETHER. You both got to this point together and you are both going to continue this journey together. And the farther you get from that unfortunate period of time the less and less either of you is going to think about it. You also said you're going to give it your best shot. No, you are going to keep working on your marriage together. Just like you did before and like you will continue to do. I want to say this to you and I'm going to say this with the most certainty I can. YOU AND B1 HAVE A VERY SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE ALREADY. Look at all you have accomplished together. Frankly its amazing and both of you should be proud. Ok, so there was a low point. But you and B1 have been flying high for almost all your marriage. And you continue to soar......together. But you know what the best part is? It's not over.


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## Acabado

EI said:


> I really do hate what I did and I hate that he is suffering because of it. I hate that no matter how sorry I am that I was unfaithful and no matter how sorry I am that I hurt him with my infidelity..... No matter what I ever say or ever do, forever, that it will NEVER be enough to erase his pain. I'm not feeling sorry for myself, I am feeling devastated for him. I hate that..... because I am a fixer and I really can't fix this..... Not completely.
> --------
> Marriage is a partnership. Yes, we are all responsible, to a degree, for our own happiness. But, when we enter into a marriage, we do so because we want, need and desire a partner to share our life with. Healthy communication is essential.... and it goes both ways. We cannot control our spouses..... only ourselves. The absence of your spouse upholding "their" part of the relationship in no way absolves each of us from our own. I still don't have all of the answers that I'm looking for....... But, I keep trying to find them, every day. An unhappy marriage was a huge burden for both of us to carry. An unhappy marriage with infidelity added could be insurmountable. Is it? I don't know...... But, we are going to give it our best shot.......


Can he fix _completely_ his share, the hurt he caused you? He only can validate your feelings and go forward, make amends, don't waste more time anymore. So you do.
I think you are doing a pretty good job. B1 tell us so. 
Don't borrow trouble, this negative inner dialogue serves no porpouse. Just take a look at the past, including the last years and since you guys really started this journey.

happyman is right you guys are so determined...
I don't know about you but B1... seeing his new avatar (already saw all the pictures) he looks like a man who knows what's talking about.  When I see him I know could take a piece of advice.


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## B1

Thank you Bfree and acabado, we are determined and we do have a good solid marriage. Yes EI is doing a very good job. She just did something for me that we had not mentioned on the board yet.

I needed to hear some things, in particular some sorries. EI was wonderful about saying sorry and how she hates what she did. But I needed something more, sorry everyone but I did. I needed to hear some details on the sorry, what is she sorry for? What is EI sorry about, exactly. Well she wrote a letter to me explaining everything she was sorry for, in detail. It was tough on us both, but what I realized is I think, this time, EI was hurting as bad as me. She was balling and so was I. We held each other and cried. 

This, to me, is the hard work I talk about. I needed this, even though we have covered much of this over the past 9 months, I needed it now and she delivered. She even covered some sorries I didn't think of that really showed me she understood what i truly needed. This was important. This was hard but helpful, hurtful but meaningful, difficult but necessary. I know, corny but its true.


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## CantSitStill

There are times I remember somthing and tell Calvin. He knows it's not that I kept it from him but my brain sometimes remembers things, conversations I had with the exOM usually it's when a subject is brought up and I go Ohh! I just remembered. There are details that I have forgotten. I'm thinking now that I've gotten all details out but I may find that I'm wrong when something comes to me and I say "ohh btw, just remembered" this is not me holding anything back it's that I honestly do not think of the exOm. I really don't untill he brings something up or if something triggers a memory. I am sorry I ever went and contacted the son of a ***** and told him I was unhappy in my marriage instead of head on dealing with our marriage. I will never hold back when calvin does something that pisses me off and he knows why. I never wana feel that resentment tword him again..This was a huge fault of mine that eventually hurt him like hell. I am so sorry for my resentment and neglectfulness but even more sorry for seeking out my ex. How did that fix anything? It made it all 100 times worse. I betrayed calvin and myself. Dear God, I can never repair it but will do all I can to change my behavior now. Why? Because I love calvin more than anything and he is worth fighting for. He is worth changing for. He is worth all of the work I am willling to put into us. I will never lose sight of him again. He really is a wonderful, supportive husband. I still get mad at myself a year later. ugg we will make it tho 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

B1...when Regret gave me a handwritten, 3 page letter and spelled out all of her inner thoughts. Everything. It was the singular point in our reconciliation that I can point to where everything changed.

I truly understand how you feel, and where you are.


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## CantSitStill

SomedayDig said:


> B1...when Regret gave me a handwritten, 3 page letter and spelled out all of her inner thoughts. Everything. It was the singular point in our reconciliation that I can point to where everything changed.
> 
> I truly understand how you feel, and where you are.


I wrote it all out with dates and thoughts and let calvin read it before I turned it in at our first session with our recent counselor..the 3rd but she seems to be good.. it broke his heart because I was honest about everything, every thought at the time..it was hard to write and very long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony55

ChangingMe said:


> ...though I do know you are going to say that being off it is allowing me to feel what the SSRI kept from bothering me. Perhaps you're right. I do know that the realization of the depths to which I sunk is hitting me harder now than in the past 8 months.


And that's what I think is important for others to know; if the wayward spouse was on an SSRI when he/she crossed the line, then it should be taken into consideration (particularly if the spouse started SSRI's around the same time the affair started).

ChangingMe, I don't expect you to comment further on this because anything you say might be construed by others as you making an excuse for what happened (which is absolutely not the case, because if anything, you've steered clear of connecting the two). I on the other hand, have no such constraints, and will continue to believe that the two are inextricably connected and I think for DD's sake (and others in similar situations), it needs to be mentioned and remembered as a very, very, important factor in this particular case.

When you said,_ "I am having a terrible time lately coming to terms with who I am, how it is that I did what I did..." _I knew exactly what was going on, you're getting your edge back, and as that happens, you'll start to see the medicated you as a stranger. You're having a terrible time coming to terms with *who you became*, not who you are, you are NOW the real you.

T


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## Mrs_Mathias

Things are rough in the Mathias household and have been for about a week to ten days. Matt is just consumed with anger almost all the time and I am just lost. I want to be there and hold him, but that seems to make it worse. He hasn't slept in our bed all week. I feel like maybe I should be looking for another place to live because he clearly needs a way to destress, and I'm not sure he can with me and our son around. But I don't want to send a mixed message that I am somehow giving up or don't want to come through this with him. I love him and its killing me to watch him go through this pain and rage every day right now. Maybe it's just the stage we are in? Four months out and the shock is wearing off? Maybe he's feeling like I haven't been punished, especially since I'm pregnant now? Maybe he just can't see any possible chance for a positive relationship between us in the future. I don't know what to do and how to make sure it's what's best for Matt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Regret and I have both worked our butts off working on our reconciliation. We're a year out from Dday. I can still at times get angry. Sorry to say it, but Matt has a long way to go yet. Even B1 was just talking about his recent anger. It's gonna happen and there truly is nothing you can do to help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Is there anything I can do to help give him hope? That's the worst, just knowing that every day he feels angry, it just cements in his mind that we are "done". I believe in a better future for us together. I know that we have so much between us and still have a lot of things in common that we enjoy. I know it could get better. But he doesn't feel that at all right now, I don't think. He's clearly trying to be kind to me and doesn't want our son to face divorce, but I don't think he believes he will ever be able to interact with me without facing the overwhelming negative emotions from what I did. It's devastating for him to feel that way and for me to know I caused this, and can't really repair it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I understand what you mean Mrs.M.. it's that thing where you don't know what would help him. Well I've been there and I stay and yes sometimes I wonder if he would be happier without me but I don't want to give up. I say stay and do you best to let him know you care and you are sorry for his pain but try to get him to talk. If he don't want to, let him know you are there when he's ready to talk. I have a feeling all of us reconcillers have had a rough week. His emotions will be up and down and I really can't tell you when it will stop. We are still struggling 14 months later. Always reassure him that you love him and that you want to be with him but also let him know it's his choice. This is very very hard. I'm sorry. The past couple of days calvin has been very distant and it makes me worry and sick inside but never lose hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Things are rough in the Mathias household and have been for about a week to ten days. Matt is just consumed with anger almost all the time and I am just lost. I want to be there and hold him, but that seems to make it worse. He hasn't slept in our bed all week. I feel like maybe I should be looking for another place to live because he clearly needs a way to destress, and I'm not sure he can with me and our son around. But I don't want to send a mixed message that I am somehow giving up or don't want to come through this with him. I love him and its killing me to watch him go through this pain and rage every day right now. Maybe it's just the stage we are in? Four months out and the shock is wearing off? Maybe he's feeling like I haven't been punished, especially since I'm pregnant now? Maybe he just can't see any possible chance for a positive relationship between us in the future. I don't know what to do and how to make sure it's what's best for Matt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Others may disagree but I wouldn't move out or even hint at that prospect unless Matt asks you to. If I were going through all of these emotions (and I did) my spouse saying they would move out would appear to me as if she was abandoning me when I was at my lowest. Part of the WS job is to comfort the BS when they trigger. Now you're going to say "but when I try to comfort him he pushes me away." Yup, that's part of it too. But the fact that you are there and are willing to ride this out with him is what is important. I didn't have a remorseful spouse and I spiraled into a period of self pity and destructiveness. Just being there "IF" he needs you and "WILLING" to accept his emotional overflow is a big part of R. Now is when the wheat gets separated from the chaff. Are you wheat (remorse shown by actions) or are you chaff (talk remorse but don't walk remorse)?


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## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks for the perspective bfree. I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. But I afraid of making a "selfish" choice to stay, if that makes sense. I am here for Matt, whatever I can do, for the rest of my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Is there anything I can do to help give him hope? That's the worst, just knowing that every day he feels angry, it just cements in his mind that we are "done". I believe in a better future for us together. I know that we have so much between us and still have a lot of things in common that we enjoy. I know it could get better. But he doesn't feel that at all right now, I don't think. He's clearly trying to be kind to me and doesn't want our son to face divorce, but I don't think he believes he will ever be able to interact with me without facing the overwhelming negative emotions from what I did. It's devastating for him to feel that way and for me to know I caused this, and can't really repair it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why its called the rollercoaster. Are you tall enough to ride with him? Stand tall and support him as he works through his emotions.


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## CantSitStill

Thank you Bfree you worded it better than me, that's what I was trying to tell Mrs M 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Me and my daughter had a fairly quick but good talk.I think we are on the same page now.
We also promised that if we butt heads again we stop and wait til the next day to talk when we both have had time to relect and think.
I'm a Kensucky hard head and she got some...some of that from me,like two Billy Goats fighting over a tin can.
I'm kinda glad she's like me,never take any sh!t from anyone,stand your ground.Always.
I still struggle but I'm getting there with me and CSS,we're both diamonds in the rough right now.
I'm glad I'm not alone in the way I feel sometimes,thank you Dig and B1.
I thought it was just me.
I love CSS and if I was on the outside looking,I'd not be happy with her BS that still let the crap get to him.
I read what EI,CM,Mrs.M and other WS say on this thread and think to myself why in hell won't the BS cut them some slack in some cases.
I know you guys feel bad for CSS,believe it or not I do to.
It still hurts but I can't keep this up.Its kinda hard to trust and open up sometimes.
It can be scarey,even though I know I have nothing to worry about.
I got the wench fixed on my Silverado so now I can head to Southern Indiana and be with my buds in a couple weeks,I might cross the ohio River and see some family too,don't know yet.
I'd like to go visit my Grandparents graves,the church I used to go to was built in 1822,lot of history there,quite a few calvins buried there.
I feel decent and I love CSS.
No reason not too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I still kinda hate this phone,I should use tap a talk more,what I just wrote looks like a second graders work
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Calvin, if you cross the Ohio River, into Kentucky, from Indiana...... You HAVE to let us know. We are about a 15-20 minute drive from downtown, Louisville. We can meet for dinner. B1 can buy! ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Are you talking about that blue bridge?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

EI said:


> Calvin, if you cross the Ohio River, into Kentucky, from Indiana...... You HAVE to let us know. We are about a 15-20 minute drive from downtown, Louisville. We can meet for dinner. B1 can buy! ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Be by the Owensborrow bridge E1,I might be bringing CSS with me this time.
We will probably staying in Chandler In.
Not far from the boader,Louisville is what? About an hour East from there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

If I don't have a job by then ..why not go with, unless you need alone time but even if I go with I can babysit while you and G go hang out somewhere 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

ChangingMe said:


> I think the "getting away with it" thought is a very real concern of his. He has voiced this to me and on the forum, I believe. I know it's easy for me to say that I don't think I have gotten away with anything, that the last nearly 9 months have been the worst, most stressful, and painful time in my life. But I can see where I still am blessed to be in my house, with my family intact, and with a husband who has not deserted me even with the pain I have caused him. So there are definitely things that I have that I don't deserve. I don't know the answer to this issue either. I think it's something he will have to come to terms with on his own somehow.
> 
> 
> Right. That's what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, Dig, your post is very helpful. I know we are only a short distance down this long, painful road. I know that the emotions come and go and range in level of intensity. I am trying to do all I can to be there for him in the moment, to listen to the anger and hurt and pain as it comes out, to apologize, offer reassurances, and try to do whatever else he might need or want. I do not get defensive, I do not walk away. I cry sometimes, and he asks should he stop talking, should he just hold things in, and I tell him no. He needs to get it out, I know this. And I need to hear it. I tell him though that his words hurt, and the tears are a result of that, but that doesn't mean he has to keep from saying what he needs to say.
> 
> I don't blame him for feeling anything that he is feeling. I hate that he's feeling it, and I hate that I've caused him to feel this way.


Since this happened in the work place I wonder if work place affair rules apply and you need to switch jobs. I know you offered and he said no but he is not moving forward.


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## CantSitStill

jim123 said:


> Since this happened in the work place I wonder if work place affair rules apply and you need to switch jobs. I know you offered and he said no but he is not moving forward.


CM has moved to a different and better building..she is not in the same office as before, the exOM doesn't live in the area anymore so I do not see how that can have anything to do with it. Calvin has the same feelings as DD and othe BS' on here. It is normal for them to feel this way unfortunately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

Her job provides the flexiability to have an A and thus is not a safe zone. If there is a workplace affair the job has to go. The affair happened within the workplace but not someone from the workplace.


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## CantSitStill

It happened with a friend of theirs but I will let CM and DD speak for themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Got a love/hate relationship with this phone now.Getting there,love CSS,that's for sure.
Getting there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

jim123 said:


> Her job provides the flexiability to have an A and thus is not a safe zone. If there is a workplace affair the job has to go. The affair happened within the workplace but not someone from the workplace.


Jim:
I'd agree that WS and an AP shouldn't continue to work together, however, an A can take place anytime, anywhere. 

There comes a time when the BS has to trust again, IMO. If you cannot get to that place - what's the point of reconciling anyway?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks for the perspective bfree. I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. But I afraid of making a "selfish" choice to stay, if that makes sense. I am here for Matt, whatever I can do, for the rest of my life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MM, look at my situation from Sweetie's pov. She spent two years working on herself , with no hope at all. We had already divorced. You are still in your home, and still have a husband, so you are doing pretty well, all things considered. So here is what you should do, anything and everything DM tells you to do. He is your priority,24/7/365. Put your impatience and own feelings aside, until he decides one way or the other. It will take some time, so be prepared for this to continue for quite some time. ASk DM what you should do. If he doesn't know or cannot say, then do what you can for him. With the pregnancy, IDK how you will work it. If DM makes enough money, perhaps you should quit work? Devote yourself to your family to the exclusion of every other consideration. Then, when your baby is old enough and the crisis with DM is better, go back to work. Think outside the box.


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## Rookie4

These may be unpleasant choices, but you must remember that they are the result of you cheating. Which is more important, your husband and family or your career?


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## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> MM, look at my situation from Sweetie's pov. She spent two years working on herself , with no hope at all. We had already divorced. You are still in your home, and still have a husband, so you are doing pretty well, all things considered. So here is what you should do, anything and everything DM tells you to do. He is your priority,24/7/365. Put your impatience and own feelings aside, until he decides one way or the other. It will take some time, so be prepared for this to continue for quite some time. ASk DM what you should do. If he doesn't know or cannot say, then do what you can for him. With the pregnancy, IDK how you will work it. If DM makes enough money, perhaps you should quit work? Devote yourself to your family to the exclusion of every other consideration. Then, when your baby is old enough and the crisis with DM is better, go back to work. Think outside the box.


I'm very sorry if ANYTHING I have written has come across as impatience. That's absolutely the last emotion that I am feeling right now. Honestly, I am just desperate to make sure that I am doing everything humanly possible to be supportive and helpful for Matt. As the saying goes, I don't want to leave any stone unturned. I KNOW how incredibly fortunate I am to get to see him every day and even attempt to be helpful to him in his pain and anger. But Matt isn't asking for anything right now, and I'm certainly trying to engage him in conversation and spend time with him, and listen when he needs to just let out his pain. However, I just keep looking for "more". More to do, more to say, more to show him the wife, mother, and friend that I am working to be for him.

We certainly don't make enough money for either of us to be without a full-time job. And that's not just not wanting to "lower a standard of living". That's dealing with basic bills, student loans, and health insurance/daycare costs. It's not feasible. Matt and my son ARE my priorities. 100%. I quit the school musical this semester, even though I am technically contractually obligated to do it, because I didn't think we could survive the long hours of me away and the triggers for both Matt and I while I was working in that environment. I search each day for job opportunities for us in the region he'd like to live and work in. 

I am continuing to work on me as well. I know that as I become more self-aware, and face my flaws and weaknesses, I become a better partner for Matt. I see my IC approximately every 10 days, and am dedicated to making sure I know all the hows and whys to my choice to have an affair so I know EXACTLY what to guard against in the future. I truly love Matt. I want happiness for him. It's very difficult to have to watch him struggle through this low point and not be able to give him a little of my hope to see him through the darkness. I have hope, real hope for us. But that light is non-existant for Matt right now. So my prayer right now is that he has the personal strength to live through these times, to let enough time pass for him to see that glimmer of light in the darkness. I believe he would be struggling like this right now even if he had decided to divorce me. So I am grateful for each day, for the opportunity to show my love and care, and I hope that those things can ultimately help him, even if it feels like they don't right now.


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## CantSitStill

Mrs M it sounds like you're doing all you can with your situation. It sucks, I know. It sucks when they push you away, it's very hard. Just keep up what you are doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm very sorry if ANYTHING I have written has come across as impatience. That's absolutely the last emotion that I am feeling right now. Honestly, I am just desperate to make sure that I am doing everything humanly possible to be supportive and helpful for Matt. As the saying goes, I don't want to leave any stone unturned. I KNOW how incredibly fortunate I am to get to see him every day and even attempt to be helpful to him in his pain and anger. But Matt isn't asking for anything right now, and I'm certainly trying to engage him in conversation and spend time with him, and listen when he needs to just let out his pain. However, I just keep looking for "more". More to do, more to say, more to show him the wife, mother, and friend that I am working to be for him.
> 
> We certainly don't make enough money for either of us to be without a full-time job. And that's not just not wanting to "lower a standard of living". That's dealing with basic bills, student loans, and health insurance/daycare costs. It's not feasible. Matt and my son ARE my priorities. 100%. I quit the school musical this semester, even though I am technically contractually obligated to do it, because I didn't think we could survive the long hours of me away and the triggers for both Matt and I while I was working in that environment. I search each day for job opportunities for us in the region he'd like to live and work in.
> 
> I am continuing to work on me as well. I know that as I become more self-aware, and face my flaws and weaknesses, I become a better partner for Matt. I see my IC approximately every 10 days, and am dedicated to making sure I know all the hows and whys to my choice to have an affair so I know EXACTLY what to guard against in the future. I truly love Matt. I want happiness for him. It's very difficult to have to watch him struggle through this low point and not be able to give him a little of my hope to see him through the darkness. I have hope, real hope for us. But that light is non-existant for Matt right now. So my prayer right now is that he has the personal strength to live through these times, to let enough time pass for him to see that glimmer of light in the darkness. I believe he would be struggling like this right now even if he had decided to divorce me. So I am grateful for each day, for the opportunity to show my love and care, and I hope that those things can ultimately help him, even if it feels like they don't right now.


MM, you misunderstood. The impatience I was refering to was your impatience with the situation, NOT that you are impatient with Matt. You are trying to do too much with too little. A calmer approach will, I feel , work better. Let Matt be YOUR guide, for a change. Lay the proper groundwork by being absolutely sure that you are completely transparent and open, that you have told him EVERYTHING about the cheating, and that you are committed to HIM, with NO time limit or conditions, then let him set the pace for R or D. Maybe "let " is the wrong word. It implies that you have control. You need no control at all. He leads, you follow. That is how it is with Sweeite and me, although her self esteem issues are getting better, so I'm able to rely on her more and more.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> MM, you misunderstood. The impatience I was refering to was your impatience with the situation, NOT that you are impatient with Matt. You are trying to do too much with too little. A calmer approach will, I feel , work better. Let Matt be YOUR guide, for a change. Lay the proper groundwork by being absolutely sure that you are completely transparent and open, that you have told him EVERYTHING about the cheating, and that you are committed to HIM, with NO time limit or conditions, then let him set the pace for R or D. Maybe "let " is the wrong word. It implies that you have control. You need no control at all. He leads, you follow. That is how it is with Sweeite and me, although her self esteem issues are getting better, so I'm able to rely on her more and more.


That's how it is with Mrs bfree and I. My wife is a very smart, successful, engaging woman. But I'm the captain, she's the first officer. She wants me to lead but I could never properly lead without her having my back. And face it what would Kirk be without Spock? What would Han Solo be without Chewbacca. What would the Captain be without Tennille. And what would I be without Mrs bfree? Plus I love it when she dresses in that tight little sailor's outfit.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> That's how it is with Mrs bfree and I. My wife is a very smart, successful, engaging woman. But I'm the captain, she's the first officer. She wants me to lead but I could never properly lead without her having my back. And face it what would Kirk be without Spock? What would Han Solo be without Chewbacca. What would the Captain be without Tennille. And what would I be without Mrs bfree? Plus I love it when she dresses in that tight little sailor's outfit.


Ahh, memories, memories. I remember asking Sweetie to a halloween costume party, back when we were dating. I went to pick her up at her sorority house and she had on a little league baseball uniform. Spikes, stirrups, ball cap on sideways, the works. IDK how that garment didn't explode, it was wicked hot and there was a whole lot more woman in it than it was designed for. We got to the party and every man and woman in the place was eyeballing her. the men because she was hot, the women because they were jealous. Sweetie still looks great.


----------



## EI

I know why people are so hard on themselves.... At least I think I know why I am so hard on myself. I think we fear that if "they" (whoever they are) REALLY knew us, then "they" would see through us and know how terribly flawed and damaged we are. That's my personal little psychoanalysis for the day. But, the thing is, "they" all have their own secrets, too. "They" aren't perfect and without flaws, themselves. None of us are. We are all flawed human beings. We all have unmet needs. And, the truth is, we're all just desperately trying to survive, taking care of those whom we love, and trying to cobble up enough of our own basic needs so that we can carry on another day. ~ EI

(This is something that I wrote in my notebook during a very dark time in my life. I have 100's of them.)


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> I know why people are so hard on themselves.... At least I think I know why I am so hard on myself. I think we fear that if "they" (whoever they are) REALLY knew us, then "they" would see through us and know how terribly flawed and damaged we are. That's my personal little psychoanalysis for the day. But, the thing is, "they" all have their own secrets, too. "They" aren't perfect and without flaws, themselves. None of us are. We are all flawed human beings. We all have unmet needs. And, the truth is, we're all just desperately trying to survive, taking care of those whom we love, and trying to cobble up enough of our own basic needs so that we can carry on another day. ~ EI
> 
> (This is something that I wrote in my notebook during a very dark time in my life. I have 100's of them.)


This is an excellent argument for full disclosure. Sweetie confessed to everybody within the City limits. So she has nothing to hide.


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## Regret214

Dig is banned permanently for saying people who think a certain way are foolish. He didn't call any one in particular a fool, even though that is what his ban says. This is the reason I have stayed away from TAM for so long. Some things are handled well and others they handle with a chainsaw.

TAM just lost a good poster and I'm not just saying that because he is my husband. I am saying that because he liked that he tried to help people in difficult situations. Too bad. He's really crushed about this.


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## cpacan

Regret214 said:


> Dig is banned permanently for saying people who think a certain way are foolish. He didn't call any one in particular a fool, even though that is what his ban says. This is the reason I have stayed away from TAM for so long. Some things are handled well and others they handle with a chainsaw.
> 
> TAM just lost a good poster and I'm not just saying that because he is my husband. I am saying that because he liked that he tried to help people in difficult situations. Too bad. He's really crushed about this.


I'm really, really sorry about this! And I agree that he was, and still is, a valuable poster, especially considering your rather remarkable history. I always enjoy reading his posts. I hope the two of you can and wish to find a way back.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Oh no! Is there anything that can be done about a permanent ban? Can other posters write to mod's on his behalf or anything?


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## daisygirl 41

Regret214 said:


> Dig is banned permanently for saying people who think a certain way are foolish. He didn't call any one in particular a fool, even though that is what his ban says. This is the reason I have stayed away from TAM for so long. Some things are handled well and others they handle with a chainsaw.
> 
> TAM just lost a good poster and I'm not just saying that because he is my husband. I am saying that because he liked that he tried to help people in difficult situations. Too bad. He's really crushed about this.


Unbelievable. He'll be missed tremendously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

What a shame and a loss. I'm sorry to hear it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Wow

Dig banned. Does the White House run TAM now?

Pres. Obama please let Dig back on.

Oh whats that? I think I hear a drone heading my way.

Very, very strange.

I thought you had to say something really bad, derogatory or threatening to be banned for life.

HM64


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## bfree

Sounds like what happened to Beowulf and Morrigan. Very sad. I enjoyed Dig's posts. I'll miss his perspective.


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## warlock07

What was the post he was banned for ? We should find a way to get him unbanned. Dig's a long time poster..


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## warlock07

ChangingMe said:


> What a shame and a loss. I'm sorry to hear it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't write his obituary yet!! we will find a way to get him back :smthumbup:


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## Regret214

SomedayDig said:


> Laughing my mother f'ng head off.
> 
> You obviously think that it's a bed of roses in the house of a couple working on reconciliation. You couldn't be more f'ng wrong.
> 
> I wonder how people get off telling others how they should feel, how they're rationalizing and in a sense, lying to themselves. You people...the ones telling a betrayed spouse how they should feel are foolish to think you hold such a position in the recovery or divorce of a couple dealing with infidelity.



Because he said this. The part about people are foolish to think they hold such a position...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

This is what Regret posted earlier......


Quote:
Originally Posted by SomedayDig View Post
Laughing my mother f'ng head off.

You obviously think that it's a bed of roses in the house of a couple working on reconciliation. You couldn't be more f'ng wrong.

I wonder how people get off telling others how they should feel, how they're rationalizing and in a sense, lying to themselves. You people...the ones telling a betrayed spouse how they should feel are foolish to think you hold such a position in the recovery or divorce of a couple dealing with infidelity. Quote 

Dig got banned permanently because of this comment? Sad state of moderation in my opinion. I rarely post here any more because I was beat up pretty badly by some posters since I'm a WS, but did any of them get banned? Well, Badblood got banned but not until about 6 months later.

It's too bad. I know how much he liked to try to help others.


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## daisygirl 41

More and more I'm finding we have to defend our decision to R here in TAM. I saw that thread and decided to stay away as I have been finding it increasingly difficult of late to try and not say something that will get me banned. I feel there are a whole new bunch of posters of late that are intentionally pushing people's buttons!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Maybe we need to pm the mods and ask for his return, that's if he wants to come back of course!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrMathias

Statements like the one Dig made are a worth a handslap at the most, I can't see it qualifying for a ban- let alone a lifetime one. 

:scratchhead:


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## spudster

Oh you gotta be kidding me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> More and more I'm finding we have to defend our decision to R here in TAM. I saw that thread and decided to stay away as I have been finding it increasingly difficult of late to try and not say something that will get me banned. I feel there are a whole new bunch of posters of late that are intentionally pushing people's buttons!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Refugees from that other site that shut down recently?


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## warlock07

Perma ban is usually a group decision from what I remember. I would be extremely surprised if that is what it took the Mods to ban some one. 

Maybe it was a mistake ? Mods, please reconsider.


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## bfree

warlock07 said:


> Perma ban is usually a group decision from what I remember. I would be extremely surprised if that is what it took the Mods to ban some one.
> 
> Maybe it was a mistake ? Mods, please reconsider.


or Chris H saw it and as the owner he made the call.


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## Regret214

bfree said:


> or Chris H saw it and as the owner he made the call.


Much like he saw it last year when he tried to permaban Dig because Badblood claimed Dig was "stalking" him.

Dig just said to me that as with infidelity and reconciliation, you have to be willing to lose what you love. He had a love hate relationship with TAM like all of us do. He said he's willing to lose it if it makes this place better.

Other than that he said he knows there are a few people here who play World of Warcraft. He wants those of you to know his name is Feckin and he is on the Nordrassil server Horde team. His quote is "Let them know I'm just going to get on game and pwn some noobs without being banned". Don't know exactly what that means, but he said it's fun.

I'm sad about this "decision".


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## bfree

Regret214 said:


> Much like he saw it last year when he tried to permaban Dig because Badblood claimed Dig was "stalking" him.
> 
> Dig just said to me that as with infidelity and reconciliation, you have to be willing to lose what you love. He had a love hate relationship with TAM like all of us do. He said he's willing to lose it if it makes this place better.
> 
> Other than that he said he knows there are a few people here who play World of Warcraft. He wants those of you to know his name is Feckin and he is on the Nordrassil server Horde team. His quote is "Let them know I'm just going to get on game and pwn some noobs without being banned". Don't know exactly what that means, but he said it's fun.
> 
> I'm sad about this "decision".


Tell Dig I'll be seeing him on WoW later this week after I finish doing my taxes.


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## Regret214

DevastatedDad said:


> Sorry. I don't normally post on this thread but I heard dig was murdered or something.
> 
> can he not just create a new login?


Nope. That's against the "rules" apparently.

Bfree, he said that sounds like fun.


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## daisygirl 41

bfree said:


> Refugees from that other site that shut down recently?


Yes I think so. There's a bad vibe on TAM at the mo!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

When a giant on TAM, like Dig, is permanently taken down for an honest comment made to a newbie, here for only 10 days, with 25 posts to his credit, you begin to wonder if this is even the place for those in reconciliation to try to post. 

I have witnessed more people who are trying to reconcile, get banned for simply stating/defending their position, than I have seen those who are attacking them get banned. 

I think it's a shame. 

If the goal of this forum is *only* to allow hurt, bitter and angry individuals (who are understandably in a great deal of pain.... and please understand that I am not minimizing their pain) a place to have free reign to bash those attempting to reconcile, then perhaps the name should be changed to "Rage against Reconciliation."

If this is my last post, many of you have my contact information, please feel free to use it. If you don't have it and would like to have it, send me a "quick" pm. 

Take care,
~EI


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## daisygirl 41

' I have witnessed more people who are trying to reconcile, get banned for simply stating/defending their position, than I have seen those who are attacking them get banned'.

Same here EI. I just don't get it. For 2 years I have had my decision to keep loving, forgiving and R with my H continually questioned and at time ridiculed, with now consequences to said posters at all. But it's fine, you learn to take the punched, but Dig was a true supporter of R and all that went with it and he always gave very good advice to those trying to R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> *Sorry. I don't normally post on this thread* but I heard dig was murdered or something. can he not just create a new login?


Well, we're really glad you did. And, no worries, no one is required to sign any official documentation stating that they are now, irrevocably & irreversibly, required to reconcile should they post here.  Although, we do like happy endings..... LOL 

Regarding your suggestion for Dig, Ssssshhhhh.... that would be against the rules......


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## ChangingMe

Damn, this proves how amazing Dig is! Even being banned, he accomplished a feat I'd failed at: getting DD to post on the R thread! ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214

DevastatedDad said:


> Okay, I will probably get banned for this but here ya go:
> 
> Bring back SomedayDig


That's very sweet of you. I don't think it will sway their decision, however I can honestly say thank you for putting you neck out there for him. He deserves friends like you.


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## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> Rules were meant to be broken right?
> Oh wait, I forget that is why we are all here on this site


Seeeeee , I was gonna make that same funny! But, I thought better of it..... 

This is why we need people like you on the "R" thread. Dang it, it's just getting ready to get interesting around here.... And, I'm probably gonna get banned for my comments a few posts back.......  LOL


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## Almostrecovered

attica attica attica


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## ChangingMe

EI, I like that document idea. How do we get that implemented? And be sure to make it retroactive!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

DD
Just posted!
Hope I see you all tomorrow!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> The first thing I typed was:
> Rules are meant to be broken just ask CM
> 
> but then I remembered all of the rest of you :rofl:
> I can't stop...


Well, aren't you the funny one! 

Us birds of a feather....... Noooooooo 

Alright, there's some mild, if not ironic, (and grotesquely dark) humor to that!  LOL


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## daisygirl 41

The peasants are revolting!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

I wonder if the abbreviated profanity had more to do with it than the gist of the message?


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## warlock07

The site has enough threads to sustain itself even if we are all banned. Don't flatter yourself guys. TAM is google's darling


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## lisab0105

You want the truth?! 

This is what Reconciliation is really like... 

Help me help you *** Jerry Maguire - YouTube

Pride swallowing seige pretty muchs covers it :lol:


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## CantSitStill

I'm sorry to hear about Dig, all anyone can wish for is that the mods discuss it and change it to a temp ban..I should know calvin had a permanent ban and we both have been banned a few times. I avoid arguing with people now because I don't wanna lose this place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Old Timer, if what Regret said, is all that Somedaydig posted, I see no reason for a permanent ban. I was banned for threatening violence to Sweetie's OM, Brad. This seems a lot less serious. I don't see why the banning could not be made temporary instead of permanent. I have always enjoyed Somedaydig's posts, and have been grateful for his no-nonsense, yet helpful, approach. It is posters like Somedaydig, who have made TAM, the site it is today.


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## Rags

daisygirl 41 said:


> The peasants are revolting!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The pheasants are revolting?

(Birds of a feather ....)


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## B1

Late in the game here, but dig banned, great, just great. How wrong is that. People can come on here and bash away at others and nothing....digs comment got him banned? I just don't get it? 
What gives mods?


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## Acabado

He will be missed, hoping just for a while.


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## MrQuatto

warlock07 said:


> The site has enough threads to sustain itself even if we are all banned. Don't flatter yourself guys. TAM is google's darling


Unfortunately, this is very true


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## daisygirl 41

warlock07 said:


> The site has enough threads to sustain itself even if we are all banned. Don't flatter yourself guys. TAM is google's darling


Yeh BUT this is THE best thread on the site.!
So there!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

DD, glad to see you over here 

Thank you DG.

Rough night last night for me. Sometimes, the thoughts come at me all at once, it's like I get through and conquer one demon and then there is another to battle. Sometimes, not all the time, they come at me at once. All the little details I got from EI will bombard me, it feels like I'm losing my mind when that happens. Hasn't happened like that for me in a long time. Cried myself to sleep last night...

Anyone else know what I mean when I say the details bombard you all at once, one right after another comes into your head, a thought, then an image, then a movie, then back to a thought and then another image and so on....this hasn't happened to me in a long time, hope this is it for a while. I didn't cope very well last night, I lost a battle but not the war.

I do feel better this morning, that's a good thing. EI has a lot going on today with our SN (special needs) son and I can't be there, I hate that. 

She's such a good mom. Our SN son calls on her roughly every 15 minutes, some days, for something and she's always there. She's an amazing care giver. I do love her so.


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## old timer

B1 said:


> I do love her so.


Well...there you have it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Hi B1, I can totally empathise with you, I can go for days sometimes happily going about my business then BAM something hits me out of the blue and makes me feel just awful and if I'm not in the best frame of mind the thoughts and mind movies just keep coming. It stinks! For the first year after Dday I used to get very vivid dreams about H and OW that haunted me. I haven't had them for a long time now but last night I dreamt ALL night (well it seemed like) that H was telling me that he didn't love me anymore and it was over. It was so real. I woke up this morning and I was sobbing. I just felt so sad. It just makes me feel so insecure too. I know H loves me know, and he says he never ever stopped, but there's days when it all seems so fresh. It doesn't help that I haven't seen him since Monday (work) so will be sure to make up for it and have lots of special cuddles tonight!

Take care B1. Don't fight the feelings, just go with it and do something nice for yourself today
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

B1 said:


> DD, glad to see you over here
> 
> Thank you DG.
> 
> Rough night last night for me. Sometimes the thoughts come at me all at ounce, it's like I get through and conquer one demon and then their is another to battle. Sometimes, not all the time, they come at me all at once. All the little details I got from EI will bombard me....all at once, it feels like your lossing your mind when that happens. Hasn't happened like that for me in a long time. Cried myself to sleep last night...
> 
> *Anyone else know what I mean when I say the details bombard you all at once, one right after another comes into your head, a thought, then a image, then a movie, then back to a thought and the another image and so on*....this hasn't happened to me in a long time, hope this is it for a while. I didn't cope very well last night, I lost a batlle but not the war.
> 
> I do feel better this morning, that's a good thing. EI has a lot going on today with our SN(special needs) son and I can't be there, I hate that.
> She's such a good mom. Our SN son calls on her roughly every 15 minutes somedays for something and she's always there. She's an amazing care giver. I do love her so.


Yes! I do know exactly what you mean.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Thinking of you both, B1 and DG. I hope you are each able to find some peace in your day today and spend a little time on you and with your spouse. I know how much it means to me to have the chance to be there and support Matt when he is struggling, even though it's incredibly hard to watch what I did to him.  I hope today can be positive.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Yes! I do know exactly what you mean.


Yeah,it sucks...Bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Not mad or angry just sad,it never really does go away does it,just always there.
No counselors can come up with any coping skills,feel like punching out and going home.
Can't consentrait at work today,everything seems pointless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thinking of you both, B1 and DG. I hope you are each able to find some peace in your day today and spend a little time on you and with your spouse. I know how much it means to me to have the chance to be there and support Matt when he is struggling, even though it's incredibly hard to watch what I did to him.  I hope today can be positive.


Thanks, I've had a good day. Had my cry this morning, txt hubby to tell him about my dream and he's been sending me crazy love stuff Txts all day so looking forward to seeing him later.
It is getting easier. It doesn't hurt quite so much and the triggers happen less often. I know it's something we are going to have to deal with forever but as long as we keep doing what we r doing we should be ok. I'm a bit further along than most of the BSs here though and I am always aware of that when I'm posting here.

May 9th 2011 ilybnilwy speech 
May 11th 2011 Dday EA with co worker
May - October 2011 tried to R but didn't succeed. H deep in A fog and suffering a major MLC/breakdown.
Dec 2011 - H moved out at my request for my own sanity. Still saw each other everyday and spent Xmas together.
March 3rd 2012 - Dday 2. OWs H ( with my encouragement) exposed A to everyone in workplace.
March 9th 2012 - EA turned PA ( yes I know the exact date) But please, I don't want to discuss it!
March 24th - H finished the A
March 26th 2012 - started discussing possible R
Hubby was home by the end of the week!

Just thought I'd put the time frame in here if that's ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

I think it's really good to know the time frame. This thread is such a wonderful place full of different experiences, but sometimes it can be tempting to "evaluate" your progress against someone else. Matt and I are still incredibly early in our individual recoveries. (I can't say reconciliation yet, because I don't think we're really quite on that path, but I'm hopeful every day.)

I think it does offer hope though to see that these intense feelings and pain does lessen with time. Even those who chose D, I think, can attest that time played a major factor in their healing. I find myself in an "action" oriented stage right now. I want to be "doing something", I want to be impactful in my and Matt's healing. I'm sure it's largely reactionary to the unaccustomed lack of control I have in my life right now. That's really hard for me to deal with. But I just get up every day and try to have hope. To do what I can with the day that I have, and to try not to bury myself in the past or the unknown future. Mostly, that's easier said than done!  But I'm trying.


----------



## ChangingMe

Sorry for the rough nights and days. We've been there too, as I know many of you have read. DD seemed somewhat better last night -I think taking his mom flying with him really helped, as did the 3 hour talk we had the night before and his post on his thread yesterday. I attempted to get him to talk more last night, but he just said he was doing ok and went back to lighter subjects. I appreciated the break, as we have been having very long, difficult talks over the past week. I think we have to do them regularly, but I do think we both need a breather every so often. 

I hope everyone manages to have a good day. I took the day off, which I desperately need (been working a lot). My kids are on spring break, so we are playing Play-Doh, baking cookies, and having a play date with some of my son's classmates this afternoon. It's 10 and I'm still in my jammies drinking coffee, and it feels sooooo nice. Going to try to have a nice dinner cooked when DD gets home, and hopefully we can have a good evening with some more talking. 

Hang in there, guys. One day at a time, right?


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hooray for jammies!


----------



## ChangingMe

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thanks, I've had a good day. Had my cry this morning, txt hubby to tell him about my dream and he's been sending me crazy love stuff Txts all day so looking forward to seeing him later.
> It is getting easier. It doesn't hurt quite so much and the triggers happen less often. I know it's something we are going to have to deal with forever but as long as we keep doing what we r doing we should be ok. I'm a bit further along than most of the BSs here though and I am always aware of that when I'm posting here.
> 
> May 9th 2011 ilybnilwy speech
> May 11th 2011 Dday EA with co worker
> May - October 2011 tried to R but didn't succeed. H deep in A fog and suffering a major MLC/breakdown.
> Dec 2011 - H moved out at my request for my own sanity. Still saw each other everyday and spent Xmas together.
> March 3rd 2012 - Dday 2. OWs H ( with my encouragement) exposed A to everyone in workplace.
> March 9th 2012 - EA turned PA ( yes I know the exact date) But please, I don't want to discuss it!
> March 24th - H finished the A
> March 26th 2012 - started discussing possible R
> Hubby was home by the end of the week!
> 
> Just thought I'd put the time frame in here if that's ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hugs to you DG. I would imagine March is a difficult month. We are in the middle of it though, and soon will be towards the end, which marks the beginning of your real R and you and your H getting your marriage back on track. I hope you are able to focus on that.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thanks CM. it's getting easier, it really is. Want to give some hope to everyone
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> Rough night last night for me. Sometimes, the thoughts come at me all at once, it's like I get through and conquer one demon and then there is another to battle. Sometimes, not all the time, they come at me at once. All the little details I got from EI will bombard me, it feels like I'm losing my mind when that happens. Hasn't happened like that for me in a long time. Cried myself to sleep last night...
> 
> Anyone else know what I mean when I say the details bombard you all at once, one right after another comes into your head, a thought, then an image, then a movie, then back to a thought and then another image and so on....this hasn't happened to me in a long time, hope this is it for a while. I didn't cope very well last night, I lost a battle but not the war.


I am so, so, so very sorry.... 



B1 said:


> I do love her so.


As I do you...... my sweet, sweet husband! Thank you so much for loving me. <3


----------



## EI

B1, Calvin, DG, MM, CM..............

I'm so sorry that you're all having a bad day....... some days are just harder than others, better days will come. 

I wish I had time to say more (y'all are probably glad that I don't.) 

I'm sending out all of the most positive vibes and happy thoughts I have for each of you!  

(((Hugs)))
xoxoxo

~EI


----------



## ChangingMe

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Hooray for jammies!


Oh yes -though technically they aren't jammies. They are my yoga pants. How easily I can slip back into my stay-at-home-mom days. Pajama pants come off, and yoga pants go on. And that equals dressed for the day! :smthumbup:


----------



## Rookie4

I feel that the WS sometimes underestimates the value of just "being there".
It seems that a lot of truly remorseful WS's think that if they don't constantly demonstrate their renewed commitment by jumping through hoops, bashing themselves, hysterical bonding and the like, that their BS will feel that they aren't sincere and are playing them for suckers, or worse, that the affair is still on-going.
Sometimes the best thing a WS can do is "be there", and let their BS be their guide.


----------



## CantSitStill

Rookie4 said:


> I feel that the WS sometimes underestimates the value of just "being there".
> It seems that a lot of truly remorseful WS's think that if they don't constantly demonstrate their renewed commitment by jumping through hoops, bashing themselves, hysterical bonding and the like, that their BS will feel that they aren't sincere and are playing them for suckers, or worse, that the affair is still on-going.
> Sometimes the best thing a WS can do is "be there", and let their BS be their guide.


That is so true! I used to ask all the time here on TAM, "what should I do?" There are times you CAN do things and times you just need to wait it out and hope for the best. It is hard because we wanna fix them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> I feel that the WS sometimes underestimates the value of just "being there".
> It seems that a lot of truly remorseful WS's think that if they don't constantly demonstrate their renewed commitment by jumping through hoops, bashing themselves, hysterical bonding and the like, that their BS will feel that they aren't sincere and are playing them for suckers, or worse, that the affair is still on-going.
> Sometimes the best thing a WS can do is "be there", and let their BS be their guide.


God, yes. This is the hardest part for me right now. Because just "being there" feels like doing nothing. I need to adjust that mindset and accept that Matt will engage with me when he is able, and I have to trust that he knows I want to be an active participant in this. I get so afraid that he will feel I am disengaged or not doing anything to help. It's my own insecurities and guilt over the pain I've caused and the inability to just "fix it".


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



Rookie4 said:


> I feel that the WS sometimes underestimates the value of just "being there".
> It seems that a lot of truly remorseful WS's think that if they don't constantly demonstrate their renewed commitment by jumping through hoops, bashing themselves, hysterical bonding and the like, that their BS will feel that they aren't sincere and are playing them for suckers, or worse, that the affair is still on-going.
> Sometimes the best thing a WS can do is "be there", and let their BS be their guide.


Well, sadly I'm in there opposite camp. I would love my wife to actually DO something to show me that our relationship is more than a convenient choice, instead of just being here.

And I can't help it, I often envy those BS in this thread who has spouses who ask what more they can do.

So keep on doing, my ws-friends, I say  :thumbup:


----------



## old timer

cpacan said:


> Well, sadly I'm in there opposite camp. I would love my wife to actually DO something to show me that our relationship is more than a convenient choice, instead of just being here.
> 
> And I can't help it, I often envy those BS in this thread who has spouses who ask what more they can do.
> 
> So keep on doing, my ws-friends, I say  :thumbup:


Same here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

The poblem cpacan is you got since the beginning an avoider, rugsweeper, as-if-nothing-happened, clueless type of wayward (I'm exagerating, simplifying).
It's even worse in old timer's case as she refuses to end her own affair so she didn't started even with the bare minimum requirements. I'm sorry for that man.

I can garantee you the opposite it's also possible, Rookey is right. Just being there, aviable... and making themselves safe. Sometimes just a look, feeling they care, that they are aware... is healing itself. I understand it's bad news for "fixers" thou.


----------



## old timer

Don't feel sorry for me - I don't. 

As Buckwheat say:
"OT is OTAY"


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Rookie4
> I feel that the WS sometimes underestimates the value of just "being there".
> It seems that a lot of truly remorseful WS's think that if they don't constantly demonstrate their renewed commitment by jumping through hoops, bashing themselves, hysterical bonding and the like, that their BS will feel that they aren't sincere and are playing them for suckers, or worse, that the affair is still on-going.
> Sometimes the best thing a WS can do is "be there", and let their BS be their guide.


Rookie makes some very good points. I am just going to elaborate a bit.


> Constantly demonstrate their renewed commitment by jumping through hoops, bashing themselves, hysterical bonding and the like,


I think in the early stages these actions can help the BS. Sometimes the BS has to have reassurance that the commitment is still there. In early stages some BS are in an emotional irrational state and overdoing actions of renewed commitment helps. Bashing themselves increases the belief that the WS is remorseful. Hysterical bonding is at least a form of bonding. It maybe irrational bonding but irrational bonding can sometimes be better than thinking there is no bonding.

Where I think that Rookie makes some very good points is when the early stages are ready to go into another step. When things calm down a bit and emotions are more secure and mellow. The BS sure does not want the WS bashing themselves. How can you both get progress if one spouse is bashing themselves and that can be too consuming and slow down or stop the progress? Hysterical bonding can seem like an unbalanced exaggeration and seem like their balance is off and maybe not so real.

I really think that actions described by Rookie can be positive or negative depending on the stage the R is in. If the troubled WS takes the position to “be there” and let the BS be their guide then that can be a very good strategy. Rather than the WS trusting in her/his self condemnation and irrational emotional state; the WS can be better guided by the BS than themselves.

I am sure that everybody knows that personalities and circumstances play a big role in how quickly couples go through R stages. Rookie and his wife seem to have advanced in stages rather quickly.


----------



## Rookie4

*Re: Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> Well, sadly I'm in there opposite camp. I would love my wife to actually DO something to show me that our relationship is more than a convenient choice, instead of just being here.
> 
> And I can't help it, I often envy those BS in this thread who has spouses who ask what more they can do.
> 
> So keep on doing, my ws-friends, I say  :thumbup:


I think that one of the most difficult things that a WS needs to learn is the difference between doing too much or not enough. Obviously this is a case by case lesson. What works for some, doesn't work for others. This is where the BS needs to make his feelings known. Communication , at this point , is crucial.


----------



## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> Rookie makes some very good points. I am just going to elaborate a bit.
> 
> I think in the early stages these actions can help the BS. Sometimes the BS has to have reassurance that the commitment is still there. In early stages some BS are in an emotional irrational state and overdoing actions of renewed commitment helps. Bashing themselves increases the belief that the WS is remorseful. Hysterical bonding is at least a form of bonding. It maybe irrational bonding but irrational bonding can sometimes be better than thinking there is no bonding.
> 
> Where I think that Rookie makes some very good points is when the early stages are ready to go into another step. When things calm down a bit and emotions are more secure and mellow. The BS sure does not want the WS bashing themselves. How can you both get progress if one spouse is bashing themselves and that can be too consuming and slow down or stop the progress? Hysterical bonding can seem like an unbalanced exaggeration and seem like their balance is off and maybe not so real.
> 
> I really think that actions described by Rookie can be positive or negative depending on the stage the R is in. If the troubled WS takes the position to “be there” and let the BS be their guide then that can be a very good strategy. Rather than the WS trusting in her/his self condemnation and irrational emotional state; the WS can be better guided by the BS than themselves.
> 
> I am sure that everybody knows that personalities and circumstances play a big role in how quickly couples go through R stages. Rookie and his wife seem to have advanced in stages rather quickly.


Blunt, the main reasons that we have progressed so fast, is that we are already divorced, she has owned ALL of the blame for the affair, and has proven (over a 2 year period) that she is a changed person. It's almost like a completely new relationship.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Cpacan, my hUbby isn't really a 'doer' (is that a word!!) either and that is why, when I'm hurting I HAVE to reach out to him. He would happily go along and never ever mention it ever again, but I have to say, when I need him he is always there. Sometimes I find it easier just to send him a txt that says 'not doing so good today'. I did that last weekend. I couldn't say the words, because I knew I would break down if I did, but he came to me straight away and really made sure he was there for me for the rest of the weekend. I can't really ask for more. He NEVER brings up the A first but I accept that and I deal with it in my own way.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Rookie
> Blunt, the main reasons that we have progressed so fast, is that we are already divorced, she has owned ALL of the blame for the affair, and *has proven (over a 2 year period) that she is a changed person.* It's almost like a completely new relationship.



Rookie just stated something that brought a thought to my head. I have seen it posted several times on TAM that it takes from 3-5 years for a R to really become stable. If that is true then that just supports my theory that Rookie and his lady have advanced rather quickly. At this point Rookie and Ms Rookie are quite impressive.

*Proving change over a long period is one of the most important parts!*

Once Rookie decided to R he has made great progress. Ms Rookie is just plain OUTSTANDING! No one wishes a WS spouse on anyone but if it did happen, Ms. Rookie’s actions are a great model for getting progress to the max. 


What do you all think? 
*Do you think that the 3-5 years is accurate? *My question assumes that both BS and WS are working the R correctly.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By B1
> Rough night last night for me. Sometimes, the thoughts come at me all at once, it's like I get through and conquer one demon and then there is another to battle. Sometimes, not all the time, they come at me at once. All the little details I got from EI will bombard me, it feels like I'm losing my mind when that happens. Hasn't happened like that for me in a long time. Cried myself to sleep last night...
> 
> Anyone else know what I mean when I say the details bombard you all at once, one right after another comes into your head, a thought, then an image, then a movie, then back to a thought and then another image and so on....this hasn't happened to me in a long time, hope this is it for a while. I didn't cope very well last night, I lost a battle but not the war.
> 
> I do feel better this morning, that's a good thing. EI has a lot going on today with our SN (special needs) son and I can't be there, I hate that.
> 
> She's such a good mom. Our SN son calls on her roughly every 15 minutes, some days, for something and she's always there. She's an amazing care giver. I do love her so.



That is one reason why I am not a big advocate of giving all the little details. I know it may be therapeutic in the beginning but in the long term you do not need those little details, they can cause undue hurts and bouts of thinking you are losing your mind. Being honest and coming clean with the truth about the main issues are necessary but *the insignificant details that are just useful for nightmares is not wise*.

Since B1 already has the little details I would be worried if he did not have some rough times. It is very obvious that B1 has DEEP love for EI and EI has DEEP love for B1. When that Love has been hit so hard as with infidelity it has to affect your whole self, body, mind, spirit. If B1 had those little detail thoughts come to him and he did not have rough nights I would be worried and B1 and EI should be worried too.


Now B1 is less than a year into R and he is so impressive in many ways for his time period. In fact for a person with less than 1 year into R I have not seen anyone with as good of an attitude as B1. He is outstanding! *I mean the man hurts like helll, then is brutally honest and tells all the ways he hurt EI before the A, then he will come at anyone that try to hurt EI in the wrong way. On top of all that he is constantly reassuring EI of his commitment and love.* He also backs up his words with actions. He can talk the talk because he walks the walk.

YES YES, I know that B1 probably has had his knees buckled sometimes and maybe he even fell to the floor a time or two. That is what happens when you love some deeply and that love has been hurt. But B1 is like Rocky he keeps getting up. I know Rocky is a movie but did you know that Rocky the movie emulated a real life boxer? That boxer was Archie Moore and he got back up after being knocked down 4 times and knocked the opponent out.

I expect B1 to knock this infidelity punk on his AZZ and completly out in the future. Right now he is way ahead on the scorecard.


----------



## CantSitStill

Because everyone's situation is different we are all at different paces and that is ok because we are all working hard at it. Rookie divorced his wife, she went thru hell to get where they are now. B1 and EI's story is different from ours and others.. Yes we have been working on R for over a year but that's ok. We are all going to be ok even if there are days we don't feel like we will. DD and CM are struggling too..so many of us are but we are not giving up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Because everyone's situation is different we are all at different paces and that is ok because we are all working hard at it. Rookie divorced his wife, she went thru hell to get where they are now. B1 and EI's story is different from ours and others.. *Yes we have been working on R for over a year* but that's ok. We are all going to be ok even if there are days we don't feel like we will. DD and CM are struggling too..so many of us are but we are not giving up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or you could say you are working on your marriage....as we all are and should be.


----------



## CantSitStill

Our progress is going to take a long while because when given the choice to stop contact With the exom or leave I left, even tho we didn't get physical do you realize the pain I put calvin thru??? uggg I'm bringing back some horrible memories but as I said, everyone's situation is unique..also with the bastard ex om taunting my husband and they keep running into eachother does not help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

bfree said:


> Or you could say you are working on your marriage....as we all are and should be.


yeah true..we shoulda been working on it a long time ago..my fault, calvin suggested MC for years and I just blew it off..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> yeah true..we shoulda been working on it a long time ago..my fault, calvin suggested MC for years and I just blew it off..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We all get complacent in our relationships until something happens to wake us up. Its not always infidelity. But once you know that having a good relationship takes work and commitment there's no more excuses. We all know that now and that's why we all will have great relationships going forward.


----------



## CantSitStill

yes and I have hope and will never give up. I love calvin more than anything and anyone in this world 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> We all get complacent in our relationships until something happens to wake us up. Its not always infidelity. But once you know that having a good relationship takes work and commitment there's no more excuses. We all know that now and that's why we all will have great relationships going forward.


Well said Beo jr.
Its true,we will be good.I feel it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Our progress is going to take a long while because when given the choice to stop contact With the exom or leave I left, even tho we didn't get physical do you realize the pain I put calvin thru??? uggg I'm bringing back some horrible memories but as I said, everyone's situation is unique..also with the bastard ex om taunting my husband and they keep running into eachother does not help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being taunted like Calvin was, I can't believe he isn't in jail for killing the guy, talk about self control. 
And if he keeps running into him, talk about a trigger. I see a jeep out and I go on high alert. I'm not sure what I would do if I saw the xom out. Hurt, get angry, not sure.


----------



## calvin

Doesn't matter,looks like me and CSS are done...its over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Oh Calvin, what's going on? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I think I need IC on my own,with a different counselor.
Its all on me again,my fault.
Like it always is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Doesn't matter,looks like me and CSS are done...its over.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> I think I need IC on my own,with a different counselor.
> Its all on me again,my fault.
> Like it always is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What the heck just happened?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I think IC would be a great thing for you Calvin. But I don't think anything is all your fault. Very few things in life are solely one person's. some things are, but not as many as we'd all like to take personal credit for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

calvin, if you screwed up, admit it, fix it, make amends. Go with whatever you need to to get the outcome you want as long it's under your control. And stop the pity party, it can't possible be "always" your fault.

Calm down, take a shower. fix it.

Hang in ther man.


----------



## B1

Yes Calvin get some IC and work on you. And no it's certainly not all your fault. This is some tough stuff we are dealing with. It eats at you and can really bring you down, make you feel defeated and just plain beat up. Hang in there Calvin, you can do this. 

I do say go for that IC!


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Calvin: 

PM sent. Deep breathe. Call me if you need it.


----------



## CantSitStill

No it's not his fault, he just keeps remembering back when I told him I wanted a divorce and everything is his fault..it took me some time to see my own faults in the marriage and boy have I had them..aside from the EA. I neglected him for my kids and didn't give him any appreciation or affection..I was kinda like B1..sorr B1 but from what you've said about how you were with EI, sounds like I was the same way tword calvin. Too complacent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Blunt, thanks for the compliments. Sweetie and I liked them a lot, because we are very happy with our new relationship. CALVIN......sit your butt down, have a tall, cool, one and relax. Nobody blames you for anything, least of all, CSS. She is one of the very, very , good people here on TAM, and she is really working hard to prove her love and commitment. Sometimes we all get a bit thin-skinned, but we need to look at the total picture, and see if any blame was meant. After you've had a beeah, you will easily see that this is not the case here. Relax, and think about how crappy the Bears are going to be next year. LOL


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> Doesn't matter,looks like me and CSS are done...its over.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not over, it's ok..we both apologized and are gonna keep trying
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

He even just odered us His Needs Her Needs and Fight Less Love More..they will be here Monday..Thank God. We are struggling and need all the help we can get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> He even just odered us His Needs Her Needs and Fight Less Love More..they will be here Monday..Thank God. We are struggling and need all the help we can get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thinking of you both. 
Calvin I blamed myself for my Hs A for a long time. I felt I was the one that had broken the marriage and driven him away. It was such a painful time for me.
I had an excellent IC and she really helped me to understand why I was feeling that way, why I felt guilty, I think most of us BSs experience this.

Hugs to you both
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thinking of you both.
> Calvin I blamed myself for my Hs A for a long time. I felt I was the one that had broken the marriage and driven him away. It was such a painful time for me.
> I had an excellent IC and she really helped me to understand why I was feeling that way, why I felt guilty, I think most of us BSs experience this.
> 
> Hugs to you both
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Daisy and thank you all for caring,the PM's and eving giving me your cell phone numbers if I need to talk.
Have a great support network here and some really good people who care a lot.
I won't let CSS down and I won't let any of you all down either.
Have to double my up my efforts here.
Sorry CSS,I love you honey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

It's England v Wales in the Rugby tomorrow. The old rivals in battle.
I'm Welsh, my Hubby is English!!
Come on Wales!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> It's England v Wales in the Rugby tomorrow. The old rivals in battle.
> I'm Welsh, my Hubby is English!!
> Come on Wales!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG; your Avatar always makes me smile - please keep it... and please keep supporting the way you do.


----------



## Rags

daisygirl 41 said:


> It's England v Wales in the Rugby tomorrow. The old rivals in battle.
> I'm Welsh, my Hubby is English!!
> Come on Wales!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My mother is Welsh ... my father (half) English ... 


.. I'm so torn! How do I reconcile these two halves of myself?

(I did post in the right thread ..?)


----------



## cpacan

Positive affirmation of the day:
List three things you are gratefull for/happy about today.

For me:
* My kids love me and tell me so each day
* I am healthy and well, and I don't need more than I have
* I have the best colleagues/coworkers in the world - they make me laugh and smile 9 to 5.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rags said:


> My mother is Welsh ... my father (half) English ...
> 
> 
> .. I'm so torn! How do I reconcile these two halves of myself?
> 
> (I did post in the right thread ..?)


Ha ha, I know what you mean, I have an English father too, so (sh don't tell anyone) I don't mind England winning usually, but got to support the Welsh tomorrow, even if it just to wind hubby up, although he'll be unbearable if England win! We don't go to the pub to watch it, as he'll be the only Englishman there, so we are going to watch it with my mum and stepdad and have a couple of pints and a curry! : - )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Three things I am grateful for today:

My beautiful kids
My nice warm home
My wonderful friends (virtual and 'real')
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Grateful for today...
My wife
My family
My job
Tam (I know, I know, that's 4 things so shoot me  )


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Thanks Daisy and thank you all for caring,the PM's and eving giving me your cell phone numbers if I need to talk.
> Have a great support network here and some really good people who care a lot.
> I won't let CSS down and I won't let any of you all down either.
> Have to double my up my efforts here.
> Sorry CSS,I love you honey.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So glad to see things are better Calvin. 
Hope your days goes well!


----------



## B1

Mr. B 
As usuall I am humbled and feel undeserving of your comments, but I truly appreciate them and your support. It's nice to read, especially when your feeling a bit weak at that time. Your posts generally hit us at very opportune times, sometimes critical times.

Yes, I have had my knees buckled more than once, the rug pulled out from under me and cried on the floor in practically every room of the house. This isn't easy, it's pain like nothing I have ever experienced.
But...I so love EI and I know she loves me, I am determined that this will work.

When the weak times come it's determination that gets me through. Well, that and EI being there for me. I know she's sorry, she wont do this again and there is love between us. I know I wont neglect her anymore and I hope she knows that too. This is all I need to move ahead.
I hope it's enough for her to move ahead also. She has to believe in me too and get over all those years of neglect. 

I believe in us, I believe in so many others on here too. This ride isn't for the weak or faint of heart. It's for the strong and determined. Everyone on here is trying to make it work, most have been her for at least 5 months, that says a lot. I think one things it says is that you love your spouse, even in the hurt, you love them and deep down you want it to work out.

Now lets all have a great Friday.

btw: forgive my spelling, no spell check here at work


----------



## CantSitStill

Yay! We're gettin Dig back 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Thankful for:
My beautiful wife
My kids (even if they do drive me nuts sometimes)
All the people here on Tam who help even when they're hurting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

CantSitStill said:


> Yay! We're gettin Dig back
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cool beans!

:smthumbup:


----------



## ChangingMe

3 Things for Me:

-My husband that is with me even amidst the pain I've caused him.
-My 2 beautiful babies that love me unconditionally and bring me joy every single day. 
-My family and DD's family that is a great source of love and support for all of us.


----------



## old timer

3 things to be thankful for today:

1. I wasn't in the obits this AM
2. I have six productive, responsible kids
3. I'm getting long in the tooth, but have good health


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Calvin - 

No sweat man, we will always have your back when you need it. That's what this thread is all about. And good pick on the His Needs, Her Needs. I think it's a great book, and it's focused on moving forward and building the strong mariage you both deserve. 

My three things I am thankful for:

1. My two beautiful children (almost 3-year old son and and 5 1/2-year old daughter). Truly incredible watching them grow and learn. Always bring a smile to my face.

2. My beautiful wife who was, and is, willing to fight for us. She battles her own demons, as well as mine sometimes. She continues to work hard at building a stronger future for us.

3. A second chance. It isn't always easy (as anyone on this thread knows), but I am happy to have the second chance at a future together, as a family. Wiser, less naive and more engaged in working to build our happiness. Once you get past a certain point, it really does start getting easier, and you begin to appreciate all of the hard work and pain/suffering that got you there. It's kind of like that good feeling of being sore after a long day of productive, physical labor. And you dang sure savor the smaller victories and moments in life. In some ways, it feels like a bit of an awakening. To all that life can, and should be. Not to imply that there aren't still tough moments, but perspective of time and progress makes them far fewer and far easier to push past.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

And I have to add a number 4.

4. We are getting Dig back! Balance is being restored to the universe!


----------



## daisygirl 41

How? Where? Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



DevastatedDad said:


> Guys, I have given it a lot of thought and I am second guessing this.
> I think Dig really should be banned for life. I mean... How's he gonna learn his lesson?
> 
> I will start a thread protesting his unbanning.


I think Dig will appreciate this as well, DD


----------



## CantSitStill

1. Calvin's love and patience with me
2. my family is in good health
3. my dog, she's a big comfort
4. my bed, warm water, heat, sunny days
5. this chance to better myself
6. TAM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

sorry for listing 6 but yesterday...I felt like nothing was good so had to make up for that lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> Sorry, I have a really dumb sense of humor sometimes.
> That was intended to be funny


Daisygirl, let me introduce you to my husband, DD. He is never serious, unless he is really serious, if that makes any sense at all. His greatest quality is his sense of humor. You may have to get to know him a bit to really get some of his jokes. Hopefully he sticks around on here so you'll see more of him in action. He cracks me up.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



CantSitStill said:


> sorry for listing 6 but yesterday...I felt like nothing was good so had to make up for that lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why is TAM #6? Geesh


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



DevastatedDad said:


> Sorry, I have a really dumb sense of humor sometimes.
> That was intended to be funny


Don;t quit your day job.

(just for you DD, just for you)


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Today is a good day. 

1. My adorable 3 year old who hugged me tight this morning and spontaneously said, "Momma you're so beautiful!". <3
2. A date with My hubby tonight to see Oz, the Great and Powerful.
3. The beginning of spring break! No classes for a week.


----------



## daisygirl 41

DevastatedDad said:


> Sorry, I have a really dumb sense of humor sometimes.
> That was intended to be funny


No it's fine. I get it! Don't worry!
I once said someone was an 'EA expert' on another thread. Didn't go down too well! It was meant as a 'joke' 
Oops!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Today is a good day.
> 
> 1. My adorable 3 year old who hugged me tight this morning and spontaneously said, "Momma you're so beautiful!". <3
> 2. A date with My hubby tonight to see Oz, the Great and Powerful.
> 3. The beginning of spring break! No classes for a week.


Let me know how that movie is. Mrs bfree wants to see it badly.


----------



## daisygirl 41

ChangingMe said:


> Daisygirl, let me introduce you to my husband, DD. He is never serious, unless he is really serious, if that makes any sense at all. His greatest quality is his sense of humor. You may have to get to know him a bit to really get some of his jokes. Hopefully he sticks around on here so you'll see more of him in action. He cracks me up.


Pleased to meet you DD, my H also has a warped sense of humour so I'm used to it!
How do we know Dig is coming back?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

I am grateful for the moderator's and Administrator replying, explaining their position.

They are fair.

And yes I am glad Dig will be back to.

Now give him a good spanking this weekend Regret. 

Peace


----------



## ChangingMe

daisygirl 41 said:


> How do we know Dig is coming back?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The mods posted on DD's 'bring Dig back' thread that they have reduced it to a 2 week ban. :smthumbup:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/69319-bring-back-somedaydig-15.html


----------



## CantSitStill

bfree said:


> Why is TAM #6? Geesh


Because honestly, all of these things are more priorities on my list..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

DD, I for one like your sense of humor!

btw: I can't find that thread


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> DD, I for one like your sense of humor!
> 
> 
> btw: I can't find that thread


Honey, believe it or not, there is more to TAM than the "Coping with Infidelity" forum and the "R" thread. You'll have to venture out of "CWI" to find it. 

Hint: It's in the Social forum...... or something like that! 

I love you! Wanna go to Walmart with me later? I got all the bills paid and there's still some $ leftover! No fancy "date" tonight, okay??? How about Subway, Walmart, and $ex?...... We can do lots of PDA's in the frozen food section when no one is looking....... except for the security cameras.... 

The actual $ex has to wait until we get home..... And, this time, not in the garage... :scratchhead: Deal...


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> The mods posted on DD's 'bring Dig back' thread that they have reduced it to a 2 week ban. :smthumbup:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/69319-bring-back-somedaydig-15.html


Now if they'd only let Beo and morrigan back on....sigh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Okay you bunch of sappy ***Reconcilers.........

Three things I am grateful for today:

1. My hubby, our children and our ridiculously spoiled grandson!
....Although I am waaaaay too young and waaaaay to
attractive to be anyone's grandmother!  Right, Honey???  

2. A renewed sense of peace, happiness and contentment that
is beginning to fill my soul for the first time in so long that I
can't really remember when I last felt this way.... if ever.

3. Tostitos Tortilla Chips and Chi-Chi's Salsa......... HEY, don't
laugh! This is my list and I can make it anything I want to! 

4. Okay, okay...... and, you guys! 

*** You do not have to actually be reconciling, or married, or even in a relationship to be a Reconciler.... you don't even have to like people to be a Reconciler.... you just have to post here.... at least once!  "Cuz I know that Bandit has posted here, at least once, and he doesn't like anybody! 

Gee Whiz....... I kind of forgot one of the most important things that I should be grateful for........ _Testosterone!_ :smthumbup: 'Cuz when B1 looks at me through his "new" Testosterone colored glasses, I am the most beautiful woman in the world!


----------



## Acabado

EI said:


> A renewed sense of peace, happiness and contentment that is beginning to fill my soul for the first time in so long that I can't really remember when I last felt this way.... if ever.


:smthumbup:


----------



## B1

EI said:


> Honey, believe it or not, there is more to TAM than the "Coping with Infidelity" forum and the "R" thread. You'll have to venture out of "CWI" to find it.
> 
> Hint: It's in the Social forum...... or something like that!
> 
> I love you! Wanna go to Walmart with me later? I got all the bills paid and there's still some $ leftover! No fancy "date" tonight, okay??? How about Subway, Walmart, and $ex?...... We can do lots of PDA's in the frozen food section when no one is looking....... except for the security cameras....
> 
> The actual $ex has to wait until we get home..... And, this time, not in the garage... :scratchhead: Deal...


Ok, but I have a better idea....$ex then subway and grocery then $ex again. God I love testosterone, Uh....and you


----------



## TCSRedhead

It's a good time in the TCSRedhead and Crashandburn household.

I am grateful for:

1. My husband's kind and patient heart. He teaches me more about love every day.
2. Our health and the health of our children.
3. Our children. How can I not be grateful for the sweet baby kisses of our 8 month old son? (Especially early in the morning when he's all cuddled up).


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> Okay you bunch of sappy ***Reconcilers.........
> 
> Three things I am grateful for today:
> 
> 1. My hubby, our children and our ridiculously spoiled grandson!
> ....Although I am waaaaay too young and waaaaay to
> attractive to be anyone's grandmother!  Right, Honey???
> 
> 2. A renewed sense of peace, happiness and contentment that
> is beginning to fill my soul for the first time in so long that I
> can't really remember when I last felt this way.... if ever.
> 
> 3. Tostitos Tortilla Chips and Chi-Chi's Salsa......... HEY, don't
> laugh! This is my list and I can make it anything I want to!
> 
> 4. Okay, okay...... and, you guys!
> 
> *** You do not have to actually be reconciling, or married, or even in a relationship to be a Reconciler.... you don't even have to like people to be a Reconciler.... you just have to post here.... at least once!  "Cuz I know that Bandit has posted here, at least once, and he doesn't like anybody!
> 
> Gee Whiz....... I kind of forgot one of the most important things that I should be grateful for........ _Testosterone!_ :smthumbup: 'Cuz when B1 looks at me through his "new" *Testosterone colored glasses*, I am the most beautiful woman in the world!


Do they look like this?


----------



## happyman64

B1 said:


> Ok, but I have a better idea....$ex then subway and grocery then $ex again. God I love testosterone, Uh....and you


I think B1 has a better plan.

Just make sure you two make it to the store!


----------



## bfree

happyman64 said:


> I think B1 has a better plan.
> 
> Just make sure you two make it to the store!


or out of it :rofl:


----------



## CantSitStill

Just saw a funny joke about Walmart on facebook..about there being 2 lanes open and the person in front of you needs to wear deoderant, has their pajamas on and is not wearing a bra..Oh and Bandit likes me so he don't hate everybody lol, I'm his little sister in our Tamily 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

haha I'm special
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

One more thing...since the bring back Dig thread is locked I don't know where to post this soo if any of the mods are reading, I just wanna say thank you for giving Dig another chance 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> One more thing...since the bring back Dig thread is locked I don't know where to post this soo if any of the mods are reading, I just wanna say thank you for giving Dig another chance
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thanked them here. After all the mods reconciled with Dig....


----------



## CantSitStill

I am also thankful that I had an appetite today  I had breakfast and just now had dinner..this is good news. I feel better today, feel like I have more energy. It's nice to feel healthy for a day 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'm horney and I'm thankful for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I like Bandit,he's a mans man.
Kinda hate him too though.
Must admit,he gives Tams a good flavor and I like trading insults with him,its fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

DevastatedDad said:


> I get nervous when in one post you mention being horny and the next, reference Bandit being a man's man w/ good flavor. :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: sorry. I know I don't know you well but I can't hold back sometimes.


Oh hell,I asked for that one...ugh....shrug,oh well,I better delete that because he WILL use it against me.
You're a perve DD!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

lol yes calvin and bandit got a thing for eachother
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

haha you can't delet what someone else pinked out already
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> haha you can't delet what someone else pinked out already
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Pretty sure that's what Calvin said to bandit, DD! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

they are both sick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

When I say No!!....I MEAN maybe..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

DevastatedDad said:


> Guys, I have given it a lot of thought and I am second guessing this.
> I think Dig really should be banned for life. I mean... How's he gonna learn his lesson?
> 
> I will start a thread protesting his unbanning.


I am offended by this obvious flame against banned people, and I'm starting a thread to protest the thread protesting the unbanning of Dig. 

:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol:


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> I'm horney and I'm thankful for that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Amen to that!

:FIREdevil:


----------



## EI

B1, get off of me...... We're still in the checkout line. Wait until we get home. Next time wear looser jeans. This is so embarrassing...... for you!  

Ya like my tight cashmere turtleneck? Yes, I am a little bit cold, why do you ask? ;-)

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Think I'll start threads lobbying for the banning of certain individuals,I'll do it alphabeticalelly.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

B1 not in the store!!!! behave
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Ahhh...you all are no fun....I like misbehaving, it's the new me.


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> Ahhh...you all are no fun....I like misbehaving, it's the new me.


You got a couple ahead of you B1....a couple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> When I say No!!....I MEAN maybe..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The funny thing about that statement is that kids always think maybe means yes...We all did when we were kids and got dissappointed when the maybe turned into a no and now we do the same thing to our kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

calvin said:


> Think I'll start threads lobbying for the banning of certain individuals,I'll do it alphabeticalelly.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's it! You purposely made a flaming remark to provoke those of us at the beginning of the alphabet so now I have no choice. I'm writing a STERNLY WORDED LETTER! Yes you heard me! And you're banned from the "My Little Pony" forum that I admin too! 

:2gunsfiring_v1: REPORT!! REPORT!! He's starting with A--can you believe the alphabeticism here?:rules:


----------



## calvin

Affaircare said:


> That's it! You purposely made a flaming remark to provoke those of us at the beginning of the alphabet so now I have no choice. I'm writing a STERNLY WORDED LETTER! Yes you heard me! And you're banned from the "My Little Pony" forum that I admin too!
> 
> :2gunsfiring_v1: REPORT!! REPORT!! He's starting with A--can you believe the alphabeticism here?:rules:


You're excempt AC but only you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

TCSRedhead said:


> It's a good time in the TCSRedhead and Crashandburn household.
> 
> I am grateful for:
> 
> 1. My husband's kind and patient heart. He teaches me more about love every day.
> 2. Our health and the health of our children.
> 3. Our children. How can I not be grateful for the sweet baby kisses of our 8 month old son? (Especially early in the morning when he's all cuddled up).


I think that's an absolutely wonderful list!


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> B1, get off of me...... We're still in the checkout line. Wait until we get home. Next time wear looser jeans. This is so embarrassing...... for you!
> 
> Ya like my tight cashmere turtleneck? Yes, I am a little bit cold, why do you ask? ;-)
> 
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, Sweetie does things like this to me all of the time. We will be somewhere where I can't do anything about it, and she will rub up against me, or give me the "look", or whisper something nasty, so I have to drop whatever it is I'm doing and find someplace secluded and close by, where we can commit the capital act. We were at a party about a week ago and she informed me she wasn't wearing panties. I couldn't concentrate on anything else.


----------



## morituri

Badblood said:


> Reconciliation is a myth.


Just because you and I have a zero tolerance for marital betrayal, doesn't mean that others can't *transcend* and bury their old marriage and begin an new one.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> See, Sweetie does things like this to me all of the time. We will be somewhere where I can't do anything about it, and she will rub up against me, or give me the "look", or whisper something nasty, so I have to drop whatever it is I'm doing and find someplace secluded and close by, where we can commit the capital act. We were at a party about a week ago and she informed me she wasn't wearing panties. I couldn't concentrate on anything else.


Me and CSS need more of this,she used to do stuff like that,it changes things up and
Gets the blood pumping.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

morituri said:


> Just because you and I have a zero tolerance for marital betrayal, doesn't mean that others can't *transcend* and bury their old marriage and begin an new one.


Transcend:
a : to rise above or go beyond the limits of
b : to triumph over the negative or restrictive aspects of

_*"transcend and bury their old marriage and begin an new one."*_

That's exactly what EI and I did. As everyone already knows...Our old marriage was dead long ago, long before the A started...I mean it was dead dead. We were sleeping in separate rooms for over a year, our communications was non existent, there was no intimacy of any kind. When we decided to R, it was like starting over, we didn't realize it then but it was.

Sure there is still a history, still some old us. But so much of our marriage now is new..our communications is far better and different\new, how we interact is new, sex is new, our love is fresh and new...EI fell out of love with me, she absolutely did not love me anymore, I am no longer inhibited in bed, in life, this is VERY new, EI fell back in love with this NEW me, I fell in love with her all over again. I could go on and on. There is a LOT of "new" in this marriage. 

But..there is also the pain that comes along with it. That pain is on both sides too. However, this new us is dealing with it, overcoming it and moving ahead. No, it's not easy, yes it does hurt sometimes but betrayal does not, in every case, have to be the end. It can be a new beginning, a metamorphosis, in a way. 

Morituri, I just read what the posom did with the video, my God, that sent emotions running through my system and brought tears to my eyes. So so sorry, I just cannot even imagine that and don't want too. No wonder you have zero tolerance. 

But thank you for your input, I like the transcend reference very much. This isn't easy, but it can be overcome, it does happen and people go on to live happy lives and I hope to eventually bury this pain and the thoughts, images and movies. I believe many of us in this thread can do this. I firmly believe I can have happiness with EI and I am already doing just that.

btw: That's one heck of a signature, some very goods links in there.


----------



## Kindone

My husband cheated on me just before Christmas!! The pain is still very deep! He mainly chatted on FB, only met up 3-5 times and twice they tried to have sex!! This affair wasn't long but that doesn't make it any easier to cope with the cheating, letting down by my hubby! We have been together for 16 years and always been happy that our friends envied us and complimented on how happy our family was. My was was always a good husband and father to our kids. Things changed after he got a new job which was very stressful, he thought he was coping well and so did I! Unfortunately without realising/noticing he has been suffering from depression so during the suffering he turned to this other woman! He's now ok till I bring up the affair and he goes straight down; suicidal the lot! I feel I can't talk to him about. Yes he's has answered all the questions, he's been open about everything and he's very sorry. How do I move on and start trusting my husband? Tips from people who have gone through similar experience. It's crazy because I feel so stupid that I trusted so much; I'm an intelligent, normally strong woman with a good career but I now feel so vulnerable! My confidence has been knocked down. God knows what happened to my husband during that period!


----------



## BjornFree

Kindone said:


> My husband cheated on me just before Christmas!! The pain is still very deep! He mainly chatted on FB, only met up 3-5 times and twice they tried to have sex!! This affair wasn't long but that doesn't make it any easier to cope with the cheating, letting down by my hubby! We have been together for 16 years and always been happy that our friends envied us and complimented on how happy our family was. My was was always a good husband and father to our kids. Things changed after he got a new job which was very stressful, he thought he was coping well and so did I! Unfortunately without realising/noticing he has been suffering from depression so during the suffering he turned to this other woman! He's now ok till I bring up the affair and he goes straight down; suicidal the lot! I feel I can't talk to him about. Yes he's has answered all the questions, he's been open about everything and he's very sorry. How do I move on and start trusting my husband? Tips from people who have gone through similar experience. It's crazy because I feel so stupid that I trusted so much; I'm an intelligent, normally strong woman with a good career but I now feel so vulnerable! My confidence has been knocked down. God knows what happened to my husband during that period!


Hi there. Sorry you're here. You can start your own thread by clicking on the new thread button in the top left corner.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Kindone, I'm so sorry for the pain that brought you here, but there can be some really good support and advice. It sounds like your husband is in desperate need of individual counseling. He will need to be able to continue to talk openly with you about it for as long as you need, and managing his own depression and guilt will be essential for that open communication. You are very early in this journey. There's a thread somewhere here for "Newbies" that details some of the advice often given to betrayed spouses in the early stages after discovering an affair. 

As BjornFree mentioned, you can start your own thread and get a wide variety of feedback regarding your specific situation and concerns. I think the Reconciliation thread is also a wonderful thread for you to read, there are many couples and singles in various stages of life after the affair. The posters here are very thoughtful and supportive of the different paths available after discovery.

I'm sorry for your situation, and I wish you well as you begin your personal healing.


----------



## Kindone

Thank you BjornFree and Mrs Mathias. I'm obviously new in this community so it's a bit tricky finding my way round!! I will get there!!


----------



## B1

Kindone said:


> Thank you BjornFree and Mrs Mathias. I'm obviously new in this community so it's a bit tricky finding my way round!! I will get there!!


Welcome Kindone, so sorry you are here and dealing with this.
I agree with the others, initially, go ahead and start a new thread. You will get a wider audience that way. Not everyone looks here, but everyone notices a new thread and you will get more feedback that way. 

In your new thread you may want to add how you found out, when your Dday (discovery day) was, how is he behaving now, and some details on the what exactly happened.

btw: His depression didn't make him cheat, he chose to cheat.
His depression may have made him vulnerable, unable to cope, but it DID NOT make him do it. This is critical that he owns this, he chose to have an affair!


----------



## Kindone

Thanks B1 for the feedbacks. He's admitted that the depression shouldn't be an excuse to have gone and cheated on me. He really is a broken man. Of course he chose to act/behave the way he did; he forgot our vows as I keep saying, he ignored that clear red line and decided to cross it!!


----------



## calvin

Kindone said:


> Thanks B1 for the feedbacks. He's admitted that the depression shouldn't be an excuse to have gone and cheated on me. He really is a broken man. Of course he chose to act/behave the way he did; he forgot our vows as I keep saying, he ignored that clear red line and decided to cross it!!


Sorry you had to become part of the club Kindone,my wife CSS post on here regularly and we have our own thread.
She had a four month EA with old hs bf,even met him a few times but nothing physical.
We are a little over a year in R and it is hard,it still hurts but we are getting there,so are other couples
Who frequent this thread.
So welcome to B1 and EI's thread and hang around some,you'll find a lot of help.
If you have to go through this,you have landed in the right place where you can find a lot of support.
I consider the people on here me and my wife's friends now.
Sorry kindone,hang in there.
It hurts but it will get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Kindone said:


> Thanks B1 for the feedbacks. He's admitted that the depression shouldn't be an excuse to have gone and cheated on me. He really is a broken man. Of course he chose to act/behave the way he did; he forgot our vows as I keep saying, he ignored that clear red line and decided to cross it!!


There is one good thing about that red line. You can cross back over it again.


----------



## CantSitStill

Kindone,

Stick around and read all you can on the stickys and make sure he is doing what he needs to be transparent and to reassure you that he is commited to you and only you. This is a great thread to vent, ask questions..shoot anything goes here pretty much as long as you're nice to those here that are trying and struggling. You'll get alot of support here. If not for this place I don't know if calvin and I would make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

kindone,
Trust will come, but he has to earn it. Be patient, don't try to rush it. Hopefully he's being open, transparent, and forthcoming with the information you want.

Yes, your confidence takes a hit, a huge hit. You will feel stupid, vulnerable, defeated and beat up. This is normal Kindone, your not going crazy. It's all part of it, you were traumatized and as my counselor said you were also violated. 

At 3 months I was probably still checking phone records, or spot checking them. In our case, my wife EI, had a 15 month EA\PA. Dday for me was May 27th. 2012. I am almost 10 months out and I do trust her now. However, when she is out she checks in frequently and sometimes even sends pics of her location. 

She is open and honest, forthcoming with details when I ask. This is important. 

Trickle truth is very common here. Are you sure you have all the info on the affair, how long, how many times they met up etc. You say he says 3-5 times? he doesn't know? believe me, he knows and needs to tell you. Also, I really hate to bring this up but you probably need to see a doc and get tested for STD's.
Sorry, but these are things you have to worry and think about.

You two need counseling, he sounds like he definitely does. I am sure you do too. I would suggest MC (marriage counseling) and IC (Individual counseling).

Moving on...well, that will take a lot more time than 4 months. Current statistics say 2-5 years to fully recover from this. However, everyone heals at a different pace. I also believe you can begin to find happiness again in a much shorter time, with bouts of hurt in between. I can honestly say I am overall happy with moments of sadness and pain. Somedays are naturally better than others. 

Your still early in this so your on a wild roller coaster ride of emotions. Your crying one minute and angry the next, you also probably look to him for comfort, this is normal. Also, your sex life may have picked up too, this is called hysterical bonding, very common. 

Hang in there, it does get better with time and with a spouse who is as committed as you are in making it work. It takes 2 for a successful R.


----------



## bfree

Btw B1, EI is the only person,.or at least the first person that I ever heard that sent pictures to you of where she was when she was out. I find that to be remarkable and it must be so comforting for you that she goes to those lengths. It truly shows how committed you both are to each other because she wouldn't go to those lengths if she didn't think you and your marriage were worth it.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Btw B1, EI is the only person,.or at least the first person that I ever heard that sent pictures to you of where she was when she was out. I find that to be remarkable and it must be so comforting for you that she goes to those lengths. It truly shows how committed you both are to each other because she wouldn't go to those lengths if she didn't think you and your marriage were worth it.


Thanks, bfree. Without sounding too corny, I love him sooooo much, there really isn't anything that I wouldn't do to give him comfort and reassurance. I want to go over and above, I want to do things that he wouldn't even think to ask for. I want to do things before he asks..... I want to do what I would hope he would do for me if the situation were reversed. 

I really do believe that it must take some kind of super human strength (or maybe it's called love) to not only forgive your spouse's infidelity, but to risk opening your heart to loving them again. I've tried to put myself in his position, of being the spouse who was betrayed with infidelity, and God help me, I can't even let myself go there. I can't even imagine it. Just the idea of it is unbearable to me. Yet, he has to bear it. But, he doesn't have to be with me...... he chooses to be with me. He never holds it over me in anger, he never claims the moral high ground, he only asks that I help him heal. And, of course, I want him to heal, I need him to heal. Until he is fully healed, neither will I be, because as husband and wife we are one flesh. I know he is giving me a precious gift..... one that I will never, ever take for granted.


----------



## CantSitStill

EI said:


> Thanks, bfree. Without sounding too corny, I love him sooooo much, there really isn't anything that I wouldn't do to give him comfort and reassurance. I want to go over and above, I want to do things that he wouldn't even think to ask for. I want to do things before he asks..... I want to do what I would hope he would do for me if the situation were reversed.
> 
> I really do believe that it must take some kind of super human strength (or maybe it's called love) to not only forgive your spouse's infidelity, but to risk opening your heart to loving them again. I've tried to put myself in his position, of being the spouse who was betrayed with infidelity, and God help me, I can't even let myself go there. I can't even imagine it. Just the idea of it is unbearable to me. Yet, he has to bear it. But, he doesn't have to be with me...... he chooses to be with me. He never holds it over me in anger, he never claims the moral high ground, he only asks that I help him heal. And, of course, I want him to heal, I need him to heal. Until he is fully healed, neither will I be, because as husband and wife we are one flesh. I know he is giving me a precious gift..... one that I will never, ever take for granted.


You said it perfectly 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Thought I'd mention that there's another WS who's sending real time photo proof. And without being asked. My husband has sent me photos twice now when he's gone out without me. Did it again today (Saturday); last weekend he did it too. Today's outing was during the day, but last weekend it was a Friday evening event, so I found it especially reassuring when that photo arrived on my phone. He sent texts about what was going on there as well. Both times were related to one of his hobbies (I do have issues with his spending a lot of money on his hobbies, but I'm focusing on the positive here).

Kindone, your timeline and mine are similar, and my WS also has an anxiety problem. It's no excuse, but it's a factor that increases a person's vulnerability to have an affair. It means that as long as they're dealing with their mental health issues, they (we) need to be aware that it could make them vulnerable again in the future. Just because they say it will never happen again doesn't mean that it can't. I'm so sorry you're going through this too.


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## CantSitStill

I have anxiety real real bad, have been diagnosed with general anxiety disorder..have the worse case of thos panic disorder but it had absolutely nothing to do with me going and having an EA..a MLC was going on with me at the time and anger tword my husband who btw is a wonderful man were my reasons at the time...OMG I am out of the fog and have found that pre-EA I had alot of faults in our marriage also..this took time dor me to see but my point is this: do not allow these excused to say "oh it was my fault my WS did this to me" Do not make excuses for the cheating, it was NOT your fault and you did not deseerve it. No matter what, there is no excuse for anyone to cheat. It is not your fault and depression, anxiety or any other mental disorders are not a reason to justify it. It is a selfish thing they did and they never should have. The betrayal is absolutly awful and if you wanna reconcille it will be alot of work, alot of ups and downs, alot of mind movies and will not be easy. If your spouse is really remorseful you have a chance and your spouse ought to be very grateful for this last chance. I am sorry you are going thru this as my husband calvin has been trying very hard to forgive me. It is not easy and takes time, counselling, talking and more talking as much as possible together. Also get some books..His Needs Her Needs is a good start on reading. Check his phone always, VAR the home, check emails and check your cell phone logs. Do NOT feel guilty for checking on him..you have the right to make sure he is full proof trustworthy..Like I said I am a former WS and had an E A with an ex boyfriend from when I was young. I have hurt my husband so bad and have crushed his heart. I have not had any contact with the jerk ex-om at all and we are 14 months from D-day... You are in charge of what you want, R or D and it is something to really think hard about and decide if your husband is worth it. I am grateful every day for my chance with Calvin. Hope you can make it through this but I must say..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Get ready for the rollercoaste ride of emotions, hold on tight because you may feel fine one day and the next you will feel so shocked as if it just happened yesterday..let hubby know when you are feeling down and he should be able to help you with these emotions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I know I'm talking too much but I just wanna say..at first I blamed everything on him. Thing like "you don't love me for who I am" and " you're angry all the time" I did take a good look at myself eventually and realized I had been rejecting him for years, put my kids first and didn't give my husband any appreciation or affection. I hope you hubby can see his fault in this and that he made the c,hoice depressed or not...if I could turn back time I woulda done the right thing and got us MC. He suggested it years ago but was afraid of it. Now I am so thankful for MC and for TAM. It's never too late to change. I have grown to be better but it does not erase the memories in his mind of what I put him thru. Wow it's late, goodnight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

THAT was extremely close to being an "EI" post !  And, I'm sure that it means a lot to Calvin to read those words...... to see you acknowledge all of that.


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## daisygirl 41

My H also sends me his pin point location from his iPhone whenever he's late or has to go somewhere that isn't part of our usual routine.
He also did this off his own back!

Fab post CSS.
Must be quite therapeutic to get it all out now and again.
Hugs
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

hopefulgirl welcome,
Getting pic updates is nice, if anything, it just shows they are really trying. To me they were not necessary anymore, I am at a pretty good trusting point with EI. Your still early into this so those pics are probably as precious as gold to you.


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## B1

CantSitStill said:


> I know I'm talking too much but I just wanna say..at first I blamed everything on him. Thing like "you don't love me for who I am" and " you're angry all the time" I did take a good look at myself eventually and realized I had been rejecting him for years, put my kids first and didn't give my husband any appreciation or affection. I hope you hubby can see his fault in this and that he made the c,hoice depressed or not...if I could turn back time I woulda done the right thing and got us MC. He suggested it years ago but was afraid of it. Now I am so thankful for MC and for TAM. It's never too late to change. I have grown to be better but it does not erase the memories in his mind of what I put him thru. Wow it's late, goodnight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some good stuff CSS...
CSS, yes those words really help Calvin, I am sure. 
EI looked at me last night and just said Sorry...I'm so sorry. She says it feels hollow, not enough, but her words, and I am sure your words carry a lot of weight with us. They mean everything, we can't hear it enough. For the WS to get it, to really get it like you two do, and others here, makes ALL the difference to a healing BS.


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## calvin

What CSS said is true,there were very little hugs and kisses,intimacy was rare,I was told to take a cold shower or take care of my self.
I worked long hours and felt like it was just expected of me,I did bring up MC but got shot down every time.
I got tired of it and wanted a divorce but I was worried what would happen to CSS.
She told me everything was my fault and I started to believe it,after awhile I felt we both did damage to our marriage but CSS would'nt hear it.
I did my share of mucking things up,I got to the point of believing this is how its going to be and just said f it.
Its never to late if both partners are willing to take a long hard look at themselves and comit to work on eachother and the marriage.
This is the hardest thing I ever have been through,deaths of people close to me don't come close.
Its possible to turn things around,hard but it can be done.
A huge lesson has been learned by both of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kindone

Guys your feedbacks have been great!! Since Dday I haven't talked to anyone about my experience so joining the forum is helping. I never at any point blamed myself and certainly my hubby didn't. You see, when I found out about the affair my H was very ill and I managed to get him to see a doctor; in fact I rang our GP. Anyway, at this point I told him that my/our priority was to get him better therefore put my feelings aside for now!! Now he's better all of my emotions are coming out. As I have already said, we have talked and still are; all the questions are being answered but the truth is, he sometimes gets so emotional and low! I'm confident that he's sorry but of course I am still hurt! His phone, fb account, e-mail are very open!! By the way, that's how I found out about the affair because I know his password; I was aware of when and where they met! The physical meetings didn't happen much but my word they did chat on fb!!! I know we have a long way to go yet but we both want to work on this. We have always got on but obviously my H at some point in our 16 years together made a costly choice, the one he keeps saying its something he's gonna have to live with for the rest of his life and probably will never be able to forgive himself for it! Personally, one of the first thing I felt I had to do was to forgive him in order to peacefully move forward with or without him. Early days I know but he's trying and doing well in my eyes to repair the damage but that doesn't stop me to keep asking questions, getting mad etc. This man adored me; he lived for me and our kids so I'm still scratching my head...... I'm so grateful of this forum; I feel like a huge weight has been lifted. Just being able to tell somebody else how upset and angry you are can make a huge different to another person's life; I was worried that I could be suffering from depression myself.


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## calvin

Kindone,you are at the right place,you will get the help you need,being a betrayed spouse is hard,
It also can be hard on the spouses who did the betrayal,they do hurt too.
You don't have to go through this alone,this place has really helped me and the people here are true and genuine.
I feel for you Kindone,its hard.
I'm a BS but my wife is doing a good job at repairing the damage.
Hang tight,you have a lot of help headed your way.
I don't know what I would have done without the help I received from the good folks here,both WS and BS alike.
You're in good hands here.
I promise.
Got to go help a buddy move a washer,see y'all later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

calvin said:


> Its never to late if both partners are willing to take a long hard look at themselves and comit to work on eachother and the marriage.
> This is the hardest thing I ever have been through,deaths of people close to me don't come close.
> Its possible to turn things around,hard but it can be done.
> A huge lesson has been learned by both of us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


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## CantSitStill

Kindone said:


> Guys your feedbacks have been great!! Since Dday I haven't talked to anyone about my experience so joining the forum is helping. I never at any point blamed myself and certainly my hubby didn't. You see, when I found out about the affair my H was very ill and I managed to get him to see a doctor; in fact I rang our GP. Anyway, at this point I told him that my/our priority was to get him better therefore put my feelings aside for now!! Now he's better all of my emotions are coming out. As I have already said, we have talked and still are; all the questions are being answered but the truth is, he sometimes gets so emotional and low! I'm confident that he's sorry but of course I am still hurt! His phone, fb account, e-mail are very open!! By the way, that's how I found out about the affair because I know his password; I was aware of when and where they met! The physical meetings didn't happen much but my word they did chat on fb!!! I know we have a long way to go yet but we both want to work on this. We have always got on but obviously my H at some point in our 16 years together made a costly choice, the one he keeps saying its something he's gonna have to live with for the rest of his life and probably will never be able to forgive himself for it! Personally, one of the first thing I felt I had to do was to forgive him in order to peacefully move forward with or without him. Early days I know but he's trying and doing well in my eyes to repair the damage but that doesn't stop me to keep asking questions, getting mad etc. This man adored me; he lived for me and our kids so I'm still scratching my head...... I'm so grateful of this forum; I feel like a huge weight has been lifted. Just being able to tell somebody else how upset and angry you are can make a huge different to another person's life; I was worried that I could be suffering from depression myself.


Calvin felt this need to take care of me also. He was so worried about me and what would happen to me..which is why he too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

took me back originally. Well now that he has me and knows I am safe, the real feelings come out. The anger, sadness. the "how could you?" Oh it hurts more than anything in the world. Hang in there and don't give up. There will be moments where you will wanna throw up your hands and say "I just can't deal with this" but sadly you do have to because with or without your husband those feelings are still there. God bless you and take it mement by moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Kindone said:


> Guys your feedbacks have been great!! Since Dday I haven't talked to anyone about my experience so joining the forum is helping. I never at any point blamed myself and certainly my hubby didn't. You see, when I found out about the affair my H was very ill and I managed to get him to see a doctor; in fact I rang our GP. Anyway, at this point I told him that my/our priority was to get him better therefore put my feelings aside for now!! Now he's better all of my emotions are coming out. As I have already said, we have talked and still are; all the questions are being answered but the truth is, he sometimes gets so emotional and low! I'm confident that he's sorry but of course I am still hurt! His phone, fb account, e-mail are very open!! By the way, that's how I found out about the affair because I know his password; I was aware of when and where they met! The physical meetings didn't happen much but my word they did chat on fb!!! I know we have a long way to go yet but we both want to work on this. We have always got on but obviously my H at some point in our 16 years together made a costly choice, the one he keeps saying its something he's gonna have to live with for the rest of his life and probably will never be able to forgive himself for it! Personally, one of the first thing I felt I had to do was to forgive him in order to peacefully move forward with or without him. Early days I know but he's trying and doing well in my eyes to repair the damage but that doesn't stop me to keep asking questions, getting mad etc. This man adored me; he lived for me and our kids so I'm still scratching my head...... I'm so grateful of this forum; I feel like a huge weight has been lifted. Just being able to tell somebody else how upset and angry you are can make a huge different to another person's life; I was worried that I could be suffering from depression myself.


I eventually told my family and 2 friends. Though I don't talk to them hardly at all about it. Most of my talking is with EI, here and our counselor. 

Yes, just typing out your feelings helps, I can't tell you how many posts I have type out then felt better and deleted the post. EI hates it when I do that. I will tell her about this huge post that I wrote but didn't post, she thinks I should always post my feelings. Sometimes though it's just good to type them out and read them over and many times that's enough for me.

It's not unusual for a BS to suffer depression after this happens. Many BS's do go on anti-depressants, this had been a heated topic on many forums. I was already on one and I have tried to come off but can't, I go to a dark dark place. So, for now, I am stuck being on them. 

If you have specific questions fire away, we are here to help in anyway we can.


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## CantSitStill

Most BS' suffer from depression and or PTSD and are always told by TAM members to see their family doctor and get a good check up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

been yip yappin alot here lately but my heart has so much to say..I can't keep my hands off calvin tonight either (no not in a sexual way) in a very very "I love you and never wanna lose you" way  k back to the walking dead. We took an intermission lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

CantSitStill said:


> I can't keep my hands off calvin tonight either (no not in a sexual way) in a very very "I love you and never wanna lose you" way  k back to the walking dead. We took an intermission lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Someone is going to be disapointed I presume.


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> been yip yappin alot here lately but my heart has so much to say..I can't keep my hands off calvin tonight either (no not in a sexual way) in a very very "I love you and never wanna lose you" way  k back to the walking dead. We took an intermission lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never miss an opportunity to touch each other. It doesn't always have to be in a sexual way. Physical touch is extremely important and builds intimacy.


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## CantSitStill

God yes! It feels so good just to be physically close to him. Holding hands, rubbing his back and of course kisses too..I just feel so blessed to have him 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Very bad night of triggers for Sweetie. ONe of those "friends" who encouraged her affair. The one who is into the swinging life style, called Sweetie and told her that she (the friend) was getting a divorce, and how she wishes she hadn't gotten involved and could turn back the clock, so to speak. Sweetie, being the kind person she is, gave the friend the number of Sweetie's therapist, but told the friend not to call again.
These are the times when she feels the worst. She sobbed and told me how sorry she was and is, and how much she loves me and asks how i could ever forgive her, etc. 
I work really hard to raise her self-esteem, then this happens and she experiences self -loathing and remorse all over again. Triggers suck.


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## Rookie4

Sweetie reads my posts and has read many of the posts on the Reconciliation thread. I would like all of the WS's to please write a post telling how each of you got over the self -loathing and disgust you feel or felt, and how you deal with triggers that affect your self -esteem. Please, this would be very helpful to have some other pov's.


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## Affaircare

In some ways you don't get over the self-loathing, because I did the unforgivable. But what I do personally is that I remember that was in the past, and TODAY...right now... my Dear Hubby loves me and sees value in me. Every day I try to live in a way that shows him with my actions and words that I'm worth that kind of value. Like "You chose to stick it out, and now I'm going to live up to your belief in me."

I also try to remind myself things like "That is not where I am now, " or "I have grown and learned since then and I'm not that person any longer." For me, I was very afraid of growing older and our sex life ending, and now that I actually AM older and sex is dwindling a bit, I realize that it's just adjustments. But I did learn where I am weak, how to protect myself, what to do if I'm scared or angry, and what an AMAZING man my husband is! 

So I don't wear a scarlet A on my chest. I am not forever an "Adulteress." I am a FORMER Wandering Spouse. I earned the FORMER. I wear that as a capital letter. And it helps to remember who I am: a dearly beloved daughter of the Most High God. If I hold on to the past and the sin and the muck--well my Dear Hubby has already forgiven me and God has already forgiven me, so I'm the one keeping myself there. I do not need to hold onto it. Yep I was laying in the sewer (metaphorically) but God picked me up, washed me, and clothed me in garments white as snow, and when He looks at me, He sees someone whom He loves. So I keep my mind on that...who I am.


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## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Sweetie reads my posts and has read many of the posts on the Reconciliation thread. I would like all of the WS's to please write a post telling how each of you got over the self -loathing and disgust you feel or felt, and how you deal with triggers that affect your self -esteem. Please, this would be very helpful to have some other pov's.


Interesting Rookie,I never thought about a WS triggering,do they? I suppose they do.
Self loathing,yes I have seen that,never thought about it much because I was so focused on my pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Calvin

The remorseful waywards trigger.

Rookie

It sucks that she triggers but i think it is great she can turn to you for support and comfort.


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Calvin
> 
> The remorseful waywards trigger.
> 
> Rookie
> 
> It sucks that she triggers but i think it is great she can turn to you for support and comfort.


Its something I did'nt really think about,I wonder if its the same or different.Guess it doesn't matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

calvin said:


> Its something I did'nt really think about,I wonder if its the same or different.Guess it doesn't matter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think its worse at some point for the WS if they are remorseful.

Their bad decision/s were made willingly. Theycould have said no or i am not going down that path.

While most BS's were not given a choice. They trigger but not because of a decision they made.

that is my opinion from what i have read on here.


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## CantSitStill

Rookie it's really hard for a Fws to forgive themselves. Calvin, an example of a WS trigger is the day you came in the door and told me you saw "my boyfriend" it triggers reminders that I did that to you. I am not to where I can forgive myself. I will always feel terrible about it. I really cannot answer this Rookie because I still have a long way to go on forgiving myself. This is why I am still in counselling. I do not feel worthy of being loved or forgiven, yet I do want to feel loved and forgiven as any normal human being does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Interesting Rookie,I never thought about a WS triggering,do they? I suppose they do.
> Self loathing,yes I have seen that,never thought about it much because I was so focused on my pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, I think that both BS and WS can and do trigger, given the right set of circumstances. An example is that we recently found out our oldest daughter is pregnant. It was a truly wonderful time. We took some picture of all of us laughing and being happy, but later on, when Sweetie looked at the pictures she thought how unworthy she is to have such happiness.


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## Rookie4

Affaircare said:


> In some ways you don't get over the self-loathing, because I did the unforgivable. But what I do personally is that I remember that was in the past, and TODAY...right now... my Dear Hubby loves me and sees value in me. Every day I try to live in a way that shows him with my actions and words that I'm worth that kind of value. Like "You chose to stick it out, and now I'm going to live up to your belief in me."
> 
> I also try to remind myself things like "That is not where I am now, " or "I have grown and learned since then and I'm not that person any longer." For me, I was very afraid of growing older and our sex life ending, and now that I actually AM older and sex is dwindling a bit, I realize that it's just adjustments. But I did learn where I am weak, how to protect myself, what to do if I'm scared or angry, and what an AMAZING man my husband is!
> 
> So I don't wear a scarlet A on my chest. I am not forever an "Adulteress." I am a FORMER Wandering Spouse. I earned the FORMER. I wear that as a capital letter. And it helps to remember who I am: a dearly beloved daughter of the Most High God. If I hold on to the past and the sin and the muck--well my Dear Hubby has already forgiven me and God has already forgiven me, so I'm the one keeping myself there. I do not need to hold onto it. Yep I was laying in the sewer (metaphorically) but God picked me up, washed me, and clothed me in garments white as snow, and when He looks at me, He sees someone whom He loves. So I keep my mind on that...who I am.


AC, this is basically what Sweetie's therapist has told her, and for the most part, Sweetie believes it and it definitely helps her. But there are times when the self-loathing resurfaces. The best thing is that her therapist told her that when she is feeling down on herself, to come to me and tell me first thing, so I can do what I can to help her to feel better. It is this dependence on communication that has done more than anything else to keep us together, and give me trust in her.


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## Rookie4

Affaircare said:


> In some ways you don't get over the self-loathing, because I did the unforgivable. But what I do personally is that I remember that was in the past, and TODAY...right now... my Dear Hubby loves me and sees value in me. Every day I try to live in a way that shows him with my actions and words that I'm worth that kind of value. Like "You chose to stick it out, and now I'm going to live up to your belief in me."
> 
> I also try to remind myself things like "That is not where I am now, " or "I have grown and learned since then and I'm not that person any longer." For me, I was very afraid of growing older and our sex life ending, and now that I actually AM older and sex is dwindling a bit, I realize that it's just adjustments. But I did learn where I am weak, how to protect myself, what to do if I'm scared or angry, and what an AMAZING man my husband is!
> 
> So I don't wear a scarlet A on my chest. I am not forever an "Adulteress." I am a FORMER Wandering Spouse. I earned the FORMER. I wear that as a capital letter. And it helps to remember who I am: a dearly beloved daughter of the Most High God. If I hold on to the past and the sin and the muck--well my Dear Hubby has already forgiven me and God has already forgiven me, so I'm the one keeping myself there. I do not need to hold onto it. Yep I was laying in the sewer (metaphorically) but God picked me up, washed me, and clothed me in garments white as snow, and when He looks at me, He sees someone whom He loves. So I keep my mind on that...who I am.


AC, this is basically what Sweetie's therapist has told her, and for the most part, Sweetie believes it and it definitely helps her. But there are times when the self-loathing resurfaces. The best thing is that her therapist told her that when she is feeling down on herself, to come to me and tell me first thing, so I can do what I can to help her to feel better. It is this dependence on communication that has done more than anything else to keep us together, and give me trust in her.


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## old timer

I have occasional triggers from my WS side, and also from the BS side.

As a WS, as AffairCare said - God has forgiven me, and I have made peace within myself about my cheating, and am addressing my problems.

From the BS side, personally, I can't live with holding a grudge and I have forgiven my W (and the OM, for that matter).

I have no control over whether my W decides to forgive me - that's on her. I doubt she will anytime soon - I think it helps her to justify her A.

Triggers happen, but they don't get me down very bad these days.

.


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## ChangingMe

Here's my take on the self-loathing:

The self-loathing is awful. The disgust, the shame, the embarrassment, the pain at the pain that I alone caused -it's awful. It can overwhelm me, and at times it does. Honestly, I think one of the things that helps me is I have 2 little kids that require a lot of time and energy (and who freak out if they see me cry), and I have a full-time job where I am the boss, and those two things can consume any extra energy that isn't spent on being there for DD. My mom is so concerned about me wearing my self out and having a nervous breakdown or something, but the more I keep my mind focused on things that have to be done (caring for the kids, keeping my agency running), the less time I have to wallow in my pool of self-hate and misery. It's always there though, in the back of my mind, and sometimes front and center -usually at work, as I've mentioned, when I'm alone with my thoughts. 

I don't have a good solution for getting over it. I am in IC, and I process it in there, trying to use it as motivation to work on myself and control whatever is inside me that allowed me to sink to this level. I believe in God, and I have asked, begged, and pleaded for His forgiveness, and I believe I have it, so I try to remind myself of that. DD does not forgive me, and I can't blame him. I don't forgive myself. 

So I guess I really don't have any answers for your Sweetie. Just let her know that she's not alone. That I think there are a lot of us who struggle with what we became and what we allowed ourselves to do. I do try to remind myself that I am not choosing those things anymore. 

Tomorrow will be 9 months since the last DDay, and I have made good choices -choices that I can respect myself for -every day since that day. I haven't been perfect, but I have made choices based on integrity and love for my family every day. It doesn't erase what I did in the months prior to that, but each day it's a step in the right direction. 

Another thing I can identify with Sweetie on is not feeling like you deserve good things with the family. Yesterday was DD's grandfather's 86th birthday. Usually we celebrate at his uncle's house, but we decided to host lunch at our house. My parents, DD's parents, his sister, extended family, everyone came over to surprise his grandfather, and we had a great time. DD got a wonderful photo of the whole family. I looked at that picture and felt so unworthy to even be in the room with my husband and everyone. I am grateful though, so grateful.


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## Kindone

So sad; clearly there is no winner in situations like this! I fully understand how sweetie feels and what can't change me is saying! My hubby has so much of self loathing; he doesn't think he deserves anything good. He even told me not to get him any Xmas presents! So reading your feedback is like listening to him! Although, I sometimes find it hard to believe that the WS can feel any pain in this experience; I mean in my case he's the one went out to have a great time with another woman so I believe!! However, he tells me otherwise! I hope that we have all learned the lesson!


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## Kindone

Changing me I meant sorry!! So much going on in my head!


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## CantSitStill

It happenes where I feel undeserving of anything good, it's something to work on in IC. It kills every bit of your spirit when you cheat. It kills your self esteem. It makes you feel so unworthy. But look at what it has done to the BS. Even harder for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> quote of Rookie
> I would like all of the WS's to please write a post telling how each of you got over the self -loathing and disgust you feel or felt, and how you deal with triggers that affect your self -esteem. Please, this would be very helpful to have some other pov's.



*If you do not believe in God or think that the bible is a bunch of fairytales then SKIP this post*

I am a WS and a BS

How I got over the self-loathing and disgust

I repented, and came to believe it when God said:

For if you forgive people their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matthew 6: 14


If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
1 John 1: 9


It was not instantaneous for me; I had to suffer from my own conscience and unbelief. I also had to forgive other people their trespasses. Obeying God cannot be faked but striving to obey God is for the humble and faithful.

You will fail from time to time but there is also an answer for that

New International Version (©2011)
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

When I failed I used the above to get back up and continue to get better

You know what adultery taught me? It taught me that sin really is the destroyer of the soul and spirit. I just ignored God and let my resentment, lust, and selfishness take me by the nose and lead me right into total disregard for God. 

I do not need to tell you all that adultery hurts to the bone so what do I want to tell you? I want to tell you that you do not have to waddle in self loathing, guilt and low self-esteem. You can get out of the sewer and you need some help. Spouses, family, friends, Tam, and others can help but IMO *when you get down to the crucial stage it will be between you and God.*


If you truly repent, ask God to help you, and strive to obey God you will get out of that disgusting sewer of self-haltered, unworthiness, and guilt. That is what God wants, that is what your spouse and family wants, is that what you want?


If your spouse refuses to forgive you then that will be very hard on you but an unforgiving spouse cannot ruin your whole life. If you let God forgive you, you forgive others, and you forgive yourself then you will be able to help your spouse. In addition, you will be strong enough to not let those that want to grind you into the ground ruin your progress. If you remain in self-hatred and guilt you will not be able to help anyone.

Frankly I am starting to skip over some posts that waddle in guilt and self hatred, it can get rather depressing. Then I have to remember that I was like that at first also. I guess everyone has their own time frame.

I also do no buy the statement that infidelity is unforgiveable, that is not true. Maybe it is just that the BS or WS is so hurt that they exaggerate. 

*It really boils down to this. You are either going to believe your feelings or you are going to believe God*.


Blunt


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## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> Here's my take on the self-loathing:
> 
> The self-loathing is awful. The disgust, the shame, the embarrassment, the pain at the pain that I alone caused -it's awful. It can overwhelm me, and at times it does. Honestly, I think one of the things that helps me is I have 2 little kids that require a lot of time and energy (and who freak out if they see me cry), and I have a full-time job where I am the boss, and those two things can consume any extra energy that isn't spent on being there for DD. My mom is so concerned about me wearing my self out and having a nervous breakdown or something, but the more I keep my mind focused on things that have to be done (caring for the kids, keeping my agency running), the less time I have to wallow in my pool of self-hate and misery. It's always there though, in the back of my mind, and sometimes front and center -usually at work, as I've mentioned, when I'm alone with my thoughts.
> 
> I don't have a good solution for getting over it. I am in IC, and I process it in there, trying to use it as motivation to work on myself and control whatever is inside me that allowed me to sink to this level. I believe in God, and I have asked, begged, and pleaded for His forgiveness, and I believe I have it, so I try to remind myself of that. DD does not forgive me, and I can't blame him. I don't forgive myself.
> 
> So I guess I really don't have any answers for your Sweetie. Just let her know that she's not alone. That I think there are a lot of us who struggle with what we became and what we allowed ourselves to do. I do try to remind myself that I am not choosing those things anymore.
> 
> Tomorrow will be 9 months since the last DDay, and I have made good choices -choices that I can respect myself for -every day since that day. I haven't been perfect, but I have made choices based on integrity and love for my family every day. It doesn't erase what I did in the months prior to that, but each day it's a step in the right direction.
> 
> Another thing I can identify with Sweetie on is not feeling like you deserve good things with the family. Yesterday was DD's grandfather's 86th birthday. Usually we celebrate at his uncle's house, but we decided to host lunch at our house. My parents, DD's parents, his sister, extended family, everyone came over to surprise his grandfather, and we had a great time. DD got a wonderful photo of the whole family. I looked at that picture and felt so unworthy to even be in the room with my husband and everyone. I am grateful though, so grateful.


I don't mean to say that we are not making great progress. I have developed a good rapport with Sweetie's therapist and she keeps me well informed when Sweetie has issues like this. Fact is, we had a major breakthrough a couple of weeks ago. Sweetie was depressed and very down on herself. Instead of calling her therapist like she would do normally , she came to me first. The Therapist says that this is huge. By coming to me first , Sweetie is identifying me as her major emotional caregiver and is less dependent on her therapist. The therapist wants to gradually wean Sweetie from needing her. We like the therapist and her husband as Friends as well as Sweetie's IC therapist, and she (the therapist) wants us to become more like normal, close friends and confidants, and less like therapist/client. In fact, the therapist has talked to Sweetie about some of HER issues , as well. 
To be frank, Sweetie is much better and more confident than even six months ago, but maybe she will always need to be submissive to me, as a positive outlet for her guilt.Perhaps submissive isn't the right word, perhaps I should say vulnerable.
In many ways, the NEW Sweetie is much more mature and confident about her feelings and desires. In the past, she would be confrontational and defensive. Now she is patient and self aware, so it seems to me that it is a net gain for all of us. I'm hoping that with the passage of time and a lot of communication and cuddles and sex, Sweetie will understand how much I love her and how proud I am of her achievements and progress. I try to tell her every day and sometimes it makes her happy but at other times, she denies that she is doing anything and says it's all because her HERO (ME, )is the most wonderful man on Earth. Boy do I have her fooled.


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## old timer

If your spouse refuses to forgive you then that will be very hard on you but an unforgiving spouse cannot ruin your whole life. If you let God forgive you, you forgive others, and you forgive yourself then you will be able to help your spouse. In addition, you will be strong enough to not let those that want to grind you into the ground ruin your progress. If you remain in self-hatred and guilt you will not be able to help anyone.

^^^ THIS ^^^
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

old timer said:


> If your spouse refuses to forgive you then that will be very hard on you but an unforgiving spouse cannot ruin your whole life. If you let God forgive you, you forgive others, and you forgive yourself then you will be able to help your spouse. In addition, you will be strong enough to not let those that want to grind you into the ground ruin your progress. If you remain in self-hatred and guilt you will not be able to help anyone.
> 
> ^^^ THIS ^^^
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This bears repeating, again and again........


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## EI

Rookie4 said:


> I don't mean to say that we are not making great progress. I have developed a good rapport with Sweetie's therapist and she keeps me well informed when Sweetie has issues like this. Fact is, we had a major breakthrough a couple of weeks ago. Sweetie was depressed and very down on herself. Instead of calling her therapist like she would do normally , she came to me first. The Therapist says that this is huge. By coming to me first , Sweetie is identifying me as her major emotional caregiver and is less dependent on her therapist. The therapist wants to gradually wean Sweetie from needing her. We like the therapist and her husband as Friends as well as Sweetie's IC therapist, and she (the therapist) wants us to become more like normal, close friends and confidants, and less like therapist/client. In fact, the therapist has talked to Sweetie about some of HER issues , as well.
> To be frank, Sweetie is much better and more confident than even six months ago, but maybe she will always need to be submissive to me, as a positive outlet for her guilt.Perhaps submissive isn't the right word, perhaps I should say vulnerable.
> In many ways, the NEW Sweetie is much more mature and confident about her feelings and desires. In the past, she would be confrontational and defensive. Now she is patient and self aware, so it seems to me that it is a net gain for all of us. I'm hoping that with the passage of time and a lot of communication and cuddles and sex, Sweetie will understand how much I love her and how proud I am of her achievements and progress. I try to tell her every day and sometimes it makes her happy but at other times, she denies that she is doing anything and says it's all because her HERO (ME, )is the most wonderful man on Earth. Boy do I have her fooled.


Rookie,

I had every intention of responding to your request, on behalf of Sweetie, from your post, yesterday. TBH, it is a thought provoking question and I spent much of the day "thinking" about it. I thought I would respond today.

After reading Mr. Blunt's post, I responded to him in a gargantuan sized pm. Because I feel like I post waaaay too many gargantuan sized comments, I thought that I'd spare everyone this one and copy and paste it to you in a pm. Please forward it to Sweetie. If it is more than she wishes to read, then tell her that the last two paragraphs sum it up! 

Massive PM coming your way! 

~EI


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## B1

Mr. B.
You and I know that it is forgivable, As I have pointed out many times, John Chapter 8 covers just that. It is not the unforgivable sin, Jesus himself forgave an adulterous woman. It was important enough then to be placed in the greatest book ever written. It is there for a reason, to show that it is forgivable, If God can forgive it then who am I to not.

I forgave EI, to me it was a step in the right direction. It's not immediate either, when you forgive it doesn't make it all better right then and there. But, I no longer require payback so to speak, I no longer wish her to hurt too, I no longer want her to feel my pain. I want her to be happy far more than I want her to think about what she did. I want to see smiles, not tears. 

Now sometimes, do I think about what she did when she's laughing with the kids, or others, I would be lying if I said no. It crosses my mind, "she's happy and I'm thinking about this pain"....but then, quickly it passes and I am so happy for her, so happy she's able to laugh and smile. My mantra plays, I want happiness...I want happiness... 

I have come to realize she has her own pain, a deep hurt too. From what she did, and what I did to her pre-A. So if she were to stay in this self loathing place she would not heal, we would not heal. We both MUST be healthy to have a successful R! It cannot be one sided to me, we both have to be in a happy place, happy with ourselves and each other to really heal.

This does take time, even after forgiving, it still takes time and work from both of us. EI must eventually forgive herself and let this go for us to truly heal, for her to truly heal. What EI did is forgivable, by me and by God and hopefully by her too. 

Now I have to work on forgiving the xOM. Not for him but for me..NO, I'm not there yet. Can't even really think about it now. Right now I am between angry and indifferent with him. But I know it's a bridge I will have to cross someday, right now I'm not looking forward to it.


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## Kindone

B1 this is so interesting! I'm having a bad moment right now;I'm angry with myself for forgiving my hubby!! Don't understand because 3 months ago when I found out about H affair, I told myself that the first thing to do would be forgiving him and asked God to help nd forgive both my H and OW!! I am so desperate to see this woman but the truth is that will never happen as she moved away after Xmas! The anger towards her!! Why am I so angry and feel so much hatred yet it's my H who actually let me down? Is this normal? Whatever normal is!! Since when you've been in "R" if you don't me asking?


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## calvin

Lot of people have said I need to let go of the anger twords the POSOM,while I have gotten quite a few PMs
From the men who don't blame me and would do the same.
A years worth of text and calls to me and the things he said about my wife and kids will only be forgivable after I get my pound of flesh from him.
That and his teeth if they haven't been repode yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kindone

Calvin I'm with you; that's how I feel but if we did get the opportunity of getting hold of these low lives, it really wouldn't do us any good. That would be like letting them win and certainly gone down to their level!


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## CantSitStill

Normal in R...oyoyoy good question..it's always hard and a struggle but R is possible as Beowulf and Morrigan have taught us 20 yrs from D-day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GJfromCAN

Thank you so much for chiming in on that thread EI (Two Married...). I thought my head was going to explode.

edit: ...and you too Daisygirl!

I think I need to take a break from TAMs 

I hope you're all doing well.


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## CantSitStill

Calvin ever gets his hand on him and no doubt the Posom would be in the hospital but would hate for calvin to be in jail and then a lawsuit. Wish the posom would get himself back to jail where he belongs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Why do I wish such a thing? It would help calvin along alot with our R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I put up with his crap for a year,you don't say things like that about another mans wife or family then run away four times.
He'll get his,just a matter of time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

hi everyone, and welcome, kindone 

made it through the one-year anniversary of my first d-day yesterday. didn't really know what to do with myself... i had little memories all day where i was thinking, oh, that's when that happened, this is when i was doing this or that, but i didn't completely fall into the hole of feeling terrible. i think that's because things are so much better and fWH has been actively asking me how i am. 

i also had moments of feeling hopeful and positive -- but i didn't ever feel 100% great either . sort of in the middle all day plus felt a little numb or unreal.

i'm thinking this morning about so many of the things that lots of you have pointed out along the way. like, don't overthink it, take things as they come. 

and i think about your mantra, B1, _i want happiness_. it's always helpful for me when you repeat that. it's so simple and important and basic, yet it's not always natural or easy -- because it means we have to take a plunge of some kind, right? a plunge into a scary place of trust.

i think i'm sort of working my way up to that.


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## Robsia

Chiming on this thread.

Only two weeks past D-day and I'm not fully committed to R yet, but not sure I want to D yet either, so we're cautiously taking steps along the road to R. A lot depends on his behaviour.

We have our first MC session next week and we're planning a date night for this Friday.


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## calvin

Morning,six dood days in a row,Beo and Morrigans situation has really changed my outlook on things.
Sad but true
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

margrace said:


> hi everyone, and welcome, kindone
> 
> made it through the one-year anniversary of my first d-day yesterday. didn't really know what to do with myself... i had little memories all day where i was thinking, oh, that's when that happened, this is when i was doing this or that, but i didn't completely fall into the hole of feeling terrible. i think that's because things are so much better and fWH has been actively asking me how i am.
> 
> i also had moments of feeling hopeful and positive -- but i didn't ever feel 100% great either . sort of in the middle all day plus felt a little numb or unreal.
> 
> i'm thinking this morning about so many of the things that lots of you have pointed out along the way. like, don't overthink it, take things as they come.
> 
> and i think about your mantra, B1, _i want happiness_. it's always helpful for me when you repeat that. it's so simple and important and basic, yet it's not always natural or easy -- because it means we have to take a plunge of some kind, right? a plunge into a scary place of trust.
> 
> i think i'm sort of working my way up to that.


YES, Margrace, "I want happiness" is like taking a plunge, trusting, loving, going for it, committing. It's so simple yet, to me, means SO much more.

Glad you made it through the anniversary...I long for that day, I long for the day when I can think this time last year EI was with me. It will be a mixed bag of emotions for me I'm sure.


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## B1

Robsia said:


> Chiming on this thread.
> 
> Only two weeks past D-day and I'm not fully committed to R yet, but not sure I want to D yet either, so we're cautiously taking steps along the road to R. A lot depends on his behaviour.
> 
> We have our first MC session next week and we're planning a date night for this Friday.


Welcome Robsia,
Wow, two weeks out...Those days to me now are a blur, literally a blur. I was a mess and could barely function. 

Yes, so much of R will depend on him, well, and you too. How patient you are matters too. Hopefully he is being open and honest, and transparent. Stick around and let us know how things are going, and how MC goes. Are you getting IC too, I hope so!


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## B1

calvin said:


> Morning,six dood days in a row,Beo and Morrigans situation has really changed my outlook on things.
> Sad but true
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


6 good days.....that's awesome calvin. So glad to hear this.


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## Robsia

B1 said:


> Welcome Robsia,
> Wow, two weeks out...Those days to me now are a blur, literally a blur. I was a mess and could barely function.
> 
> Yes, so much of R will depend on him, well, and you too. How patient you are matters too. Hopefully he is being open and honest, and transparent. Stick around and let us know how things are going, and how MC goes. Are you getting IC too, I hope so!


Well, I've just started to try to do some work, but I'm finding it difficult to concentrate. I'm a freelance writer, and it's hard to get my head in the place to be creative.

I've just about been able to get my kids fed, clothes and to school up until today.

I can't afford IC - we can only just about afford MC. I don't know how you guys manage it over there - you seem to go to counselling every time you break a toe nail! It must be very cheap.


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## CantSitStill

our health insurance covers it 100%
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

^That would explain it. Whilst the NHS is great for medical procedures, it's not so hot on the old emotional/mental stuff. My WH has been waiting to get an appointment to talk to someone about anger management since last summer. Of course, this is one of the reasons we were having problems in the first place. I'm not sure we would even get MC on the NHS.


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## margrace

Robsia said:


> Well, I've just started to try to do some work, but I'm finding it difficult to concentrate. I'm a freelance writer, and it's hard to get my head in the place to be creative.
> 
> I've just about been able to get my kids fed, clothes and to school up until today.
> 
> I can't afford IC - we can only just about afford MC. I don't know how you guys manage it over there - you seem to go to counselling every time you break a toe nail! It must be very cheap.


welcome, robsia, sorry that you're here 

yes, like B1, when i think back to two weeks out, i can barely remember myself. it's like remembering a fever, or some kind of drugged state. i was literally shaking and crying most of the day. never hungry, hardly ever sleeping. couldn't go to work. could barely speak to anyone. _nothing_, not even having people in my life die, has ever come close to unraveling me like that. (omg, i can't believe that i just wrote that, but it's true.) you are doing great to be pulling your life back together even just a little!

counseling is not cheap for me, and i was hesitant about it, so it wasn't like i would just go over a toenail. fWH was even more resistant -- in fact, he often expressed his complete lack of faith that it could do him any good.

but what i saw was, we were not able to improve things at all without it -- plus i had to accept the reality that i had issues of my own that i was _not _managing well. those issues had hurt me and hurt my marriage pre-A, and i was not going to get anywhere by dragging them forward into R (or into my new single life/next relationship if R did not work out).

there are, of course, lots of responsibilities that we have no choice but to keep up with, regardless of how we might be feeling. but as much as you can, be patient with yourself and hang on! you came to the right place to get great support and guidance -- and people on this thread will back you in getting through it in a way that's right for _you_ and _your_ family


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## old timer

Robsia said:


> Chiming on this thread.
> 
> Only two weeks past D-day and I'm not fully committed to R yet, but not sure I want to D yet either, so we're cautiously taking steps along the road to R. A lot depends on his behaviour.
> 
> We have our first MC session next week and we're planning a date night for this Friday.


robsia - sorry you find yourself here, but welcome. 

Two weeks? Not very long. 

I think everyone here will agree the most important thing to ascertain is that the A is quashed and NC is being enforced. Otherwise, any attempt at R will be futile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Hi Robsia


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## B1

Robsia said:


> Well, I've just started to try to do some work, but I'm finding it difficult to concentrate. I'm a freelance writer, and it's hard to get my head in the place to be creative.
> 
> I've just about been able to get my kids fed, clothes and to school up until today.
> 
> I can't afford IC - we can only just about afford MC. I don't know how you guys manage it over there - you seem to go to counselling every time you break a toe nail! It must be very cheap.


A freelance writer in the midst of the worst pain you will ever know..wow, that's going to be tough. This stuff, to me, was all consuming. I did make it to work after a week, however, I wasn't much good then. I was such a mess. You seem to be doing a little better then I did then. Still you have to be hurting and sorry for that, many of us here know your pain. Vent away, and ask away.


Our ins covers the first 20 visits 100% then it's just a $20 co pay after that. So counseling is affordable.


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## calvin

Sorry Rosbia,stick around,you'll get help here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Really did have five good days in a row,it was nice.
Today a crapload of memories just came back,no reason...it just happend.
Not mad just low today,tomorrow should be better,I still love CSS and always will.
Little more than a week from now I'll head to Southern Indiana,sorry CSS,I think I want to go alone.
If you insist on going I won't argue.Some tome away from eachother might be good,might not.
I don't know anything today,down is up,up is down.
Head hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> Really did have five good days in a row,it was nice.
> Today a crapload of memories just came back,no reason...it just happend.
> Not mad just low today,tomorrow should be better,I still love CSS and always will.
> Little more than a week from now I'll head to Southern Indiana,sorry CSS,I think I want to go alone.
> If you insist on going I won't argue.Some tome away from eachother might be good,might not.
> I don't know anything today,down is up,up is down.
> Head hurts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We'll talk about it and figure out if you want me to go or not . You're not making it real clear whether you want me to or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

I think you should wait to make that decision closer to the trip. Just see how the next week goes. I'm sure things will go back up, you guys have had a good streak this week and a little backsliding is expected. Just keep it in context and recognize the beauty of the last 5 days you've shared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kindone

Sorry Rosbia. You will benefit a lot in here. I only joined a few days ago and I'm feeling the difference already!


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## calvin

Thanks Mrs.M. just a rough day but its getting better,nice to get some hugs.
Hope you're good tonight Kindone and Rosbia.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin, never make important decisions when you're on the downward slope of the rollercoaster. Wait until you level off or are on the upswing.


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## joe kidd

Robsia said:


> Well, I've just started to try to do some work, but I'm finding it difficult to concentrate. I'm a freelance writer, and it's hard to get my head in the place to be creative.
> 
> I've just about been able to get my kids fed, clothes and to school up until today.
> 
> I can't afford IC - we can only just about afford MC. I don't know how you guys manage it over there - you seem to go to counselling every time you break a toe nail! It must be very cheap.


I missed 4 days of work when I had my D-day. Then only "worked" 3 days a week for about a month after. 
Hard to work when you are falling down drunk.


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## CantSitStill

joe kidd said:


> I missed 4 days of work when I had my D-day. Then only "worked" 3 days a week for about a month after.
> Hard to work when you are falling down drunk.


Thank you Mrs. M for your caring and advice. Joe Kidd, ummm you ok? What is going on? Bfree you are right about making decisions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Oh wait sorry Joe Kidd thought you were talking about being too drunk to work this week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Too much on my mind, been tearful here after reading Beo's words. Need to get my emotions together
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Oh wait sorry Joe Kidd thought you were talking about being too drunk to work this week.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No,DDay did him in for awhile like it did me,lot of fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

bfree said:


> calvin, never make important decisions when you're on the downward slope of the rollercoaster. Wait until you level off or are on the upswing.


Yeah,I know bfree,its best to stop,look around and give it a day or two.
Today hurt,the evening has gotten better so I will count this as six good days,tomorrow I look forward to the seventh.
I can't wait to lose track of the good days.....getting there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

calvin said:


> Yeah,I know bfree,its best to stop,look around and give it a day or two.
> Today hurt,the evening has gotten better so I will count this as six good days,tomorrow I look forward to the seventh.
> I can't wait to lose track of the good days.....getting there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love that, can't wait to lose track of the good days.
Me neither Calvin, me neither.

I have mostly good days with some bad moments, but those bad moments are doozies. So I'm not sure if I can say I have x good days In a row or not.


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## Robsia

Bleh - ended up having an uncomfortable discussion last night. We started talking about MC and the things we needed to discuss. I mentioned that eventually we'd need to discuss things which led to our problems in the first place. I actually didn't mean to talk about it then, but we just kind of fell into a discussion about one of them. Last summer, his parents fell out with me about something, and basically I feel poisoned his entire family (four sisters and their grown-up children) against me. His entire family hates me, and since that point, my children and I were never invited to anything.

If an invitation was issued for any event, it was for him only. If I suggested I could come, he would just tell me bluntly "You're not welcome."

It bothers me greatly that he won't take my side - see he agrees with the reason his parents fell out with me, so he is going along with their cutting me out of everything because he can't, or won't, argue with their reasoning.

So I mentioned that this was one of the things we would need to discuss, that I want him to publically acknowledge me as his wife, to stick up for me and insist that it's either both of us, or neither of us.

He was not happy. He said I was making him choose between me and his family. I don't want to that, but I tried to make him see how unhappy it was making me.

I suggested he could be an intermediary between me and his family, that maybe we could all sit down like grown-ups and talk about this. He wouldn't. he said this was something that I would need to sort out with them.

I'm not used to this kind of grudge-holding. In our family this would have been over months ago, in fact it probably would never have happened. I don't really know how to deal with it.

Anyway, we didn't argue, which was good. I said maybe we needed to put that one to one side for a while and deal with it in counselling. Maybe the counsellor can help us to see a middle way.

But we have such a long way to go, it made me worried that we will never make it. And we haven't even started!!


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## Rags

Robsia,

I think, if it comes down to 'spouse or family' then it really must be spouse that you choose.

'Cleave unto them an none other' and all that.

We have a similar-ish situation in our family, in that my brother-in-law's wife has decided to detest everyone else in the family (no idea why, and it's very sad) but we don't blame my brother-in-law for putting his wife's feelings ahead of ours. That's how it should be (even if she does seem to be an evil witch, who is trying to poison her children against their aunts and cousins.)

In a marriage, the marriage comes first, ahead of other family relationships (unless the marriage is blown up by one of the participants - I wouldn't normally mention this, but in this forum, it's a necessary consideration.)

If he's more concerned about his famiy than his marriage, you have to wonder about the priorities.


----------



## Robsia

^I think that too, but he says because he actually agrees with his family on the argument, he can't take my side. He said if he agreed with me, he would back me no question.

I think rather than force him to take sides, we should all try to be grown-up about this and sort it out. He says I can try, but he knows his parents; apparently they can hold a grudge for England, or Scotland, in their case!!

And of course it makes for a quiet life for him if he goes along with what they want - effectively pretending I don't exist - he actually said that! I pointed out, "Regardless of how it makes me feel?" Apparently that is me putting my own needs and feelings before everyone else's.

I wouldn't care really if I never spoke to them again, IF HE BACKED ME UP, but it's how HE feels about it that bothers me. He seems happy to go along with the situation, as everyone else is fine about it, even though it makes me miserable. I can't get him to understand it. I do feel sometimes I am low on his list of priorities.

This was one of the issues that led to our problems in the first place. If I questioned the status quo and suggested that perhaps he put my needs first, I was being selfish.


----------



## Rags

What is it about Scots, hmm? 

(ok, unfair generalisation, but the 'unhelpful' person in our family situation is also Scottish ...)


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> Love that, can't wait to lose track of the good days.
> Me neither Calvin, me neither.
> 
> I have mostly good days with some bad moments, but those bad moments are doozies. So I'm not sure if I can say I have x good days In a row or not.


Yesterday I was just sad and down,I'm feeling really good today,CSS drives me wild,I love that girl and I know she loves the hell out of me,
Nothing could keep me from her,there is nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do to keep me away from her.
I love her and that's never going to stop.
Have a good day all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Rags said:


> What is it about Scots, hmm?
> 
> (ok, unfair generalisation, but the 'unhelpful' person in our family situation is also Scottish ...)


Something wrong with being Scottish?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

calvin said:


> Something wrong with being Scottish?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where to start? 

Without getting political, I was referring to the common issues Robisa and I have with Scots relatives, and their family issues.

(The plural of 'anecdote' isn't 'fact' - hence my comment about unfair generalisations...)


----------



## calvin

Rags said:


> Where to start?
> 
> Without getting political, I was referring to the common issues Robisa and I have with Scots relatives, and their family issues.
> 
> (The plural of 'anecdote' isn't 'fact' - hence my comment about unfair generalisations...)


Just messing with you rags,I am mostly Scottish
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> CSS drives me wild, I love that girl and I know she loves the hell out of me, nothing could keep me from her, there is nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do to keep me away from her. I love her and that's never going to stop.


Okie-dokie, then, that should settle it, once and for all! Why don't you get that tattooed on the palm of your hand. The next time you are having a bad day, open your hand and read it. Then, if you're still not feeling any better, keep your palm open and use it to knock yourself upside your forehead!  

You don't have to convince the rest of us that you love her... we kind of already figured it out! 

_Jus' kiddin'...... I was jus' makin' a little funny!  Hope you have a sense of humor! :rofl:_


----------



## Rags

calvin said:


> Just messing with you rags,I am mostly Scottish
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you have my sympathies 

(I'm half Welsh, but rarely admit that in public ...!)


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Okie-dokie, then, that should settle it, once and for all! Why don't you get that tattooed on the palm of your hand. The next time you are having a bad day, open your hand and read it. Then, if you're still not feeling any better, keep your palm open and use it to knock yourself upside your forehead!
> 
> You don't have to convince the rest of us that you love her... we kind of already figured it out!
> 
> _Jus' kiddin'...... I was jus' makin' a little funny!  Hope you have a sense of humor! :rofl:_


Think I'll get that tatoo on my forehead and my ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Robsia said:


> Bleh - ended up having an uncomfortable discussion last night. We started talking about MC and the things we needed to discuss. I mentioned that eventually we'd need to discuss things which led to our problems in the first place. I actually didn't mean to talk about it then, but we just kind of fell into a discussion about one of them. Last summer, his parents fell out with me about something, and basically I feel poisoned his entire family (four sisters and their grown-up children) against me. His entire family hates me, and since that point, my children and I were never invited to anything.


Hi Robsia, welcome to the "R" thread. I'm sorry that you have a reason to be here, but this is a very supportive thread where BS's and WS's, alike, are treated with compassion and understanding. Because of that, we have all been able to gain valuable insight, support and encouragement from one another.

Now, jumping in to your post, without knowing any of the "details" of the falling out you had with your husband's family, I would say that in all but the most extreme circumstances, that spouses should support one another, even if it means going against their own family. If the presumed offending spouse is clearly in the wrong, then the other spouse should, at least, be eager to play the mediator, within their family, as to bring about a sense of harmony within the family as a whole. I think when one spouse stands with their family of origin, against their own spouse, to the point of the offending spouse being "forever" shunned, then your problem is bigger than whatever it was that caused that particular disagreement to begin with. 

I haven't read through all of your threads, so I am not extremely familiar with your story, yet. So, I'm sorry if I am way off base.


----------



## EI

Rags said:


> you have my sympathies
> 
> (I'm half Welsh, but rarely admit that in public ...!)


My paternal grandmother's family is welsh. My paternal grandfather's family is Scottish..... and I have no idea what any of that means! 

I guess I must be a mutt! :scratchhead:


----------



## Rags

EI said:


> My paternal grandmother's family is welsh. My paternal grandfather's family is Scottish..... and I have no idea what any of that means!
> 
> I guess I must be a mutt! :scratchhead:


Healthiest way to be, really. Less chance of inbreeding. (Or as they say in Norfolk, 'Give me six!')

My wife is heavily into family history, so we know quite a lot about how inbred her family is (from Norfolk, mainly  ) whereas I'm a true mix, from multiple continents.

Sadly, in my case, I've managed to inherit the problems from each gene-pool!

Hope my children manage to escape.


----------



## calvin

Rags said:


> you have my sympathies
> 
> (I'm half Welsh, but rarely admit that in public ...!)


Uh oh,Rags is making Braveheart angry!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Kindone said:


> My husband cheated on me just before Christmas!! The pain is still very deep! He mainly chatted on FB, only met up 3-5 times and twice they tried to have sex!! This affair wasn't long but that doesn't make it any easier to cope with the cheating, letting down by my hubby! We have been together for 16 years and always been happy that our friends envied us and complimented on how happy our family was. My was was always a good husband and father to our kids. Things changed after he got a new job which was very stressful, he thought he was coping well and so did I! Unfortunately without realising/noticing he has been suffering from depression so during the suffering he turned to this other woman! He's now ok till I bring up the affair and he goes straight down; suicidal the lot! I feel I can't talk to him about. Yes he's has answered all the questions, he's been open about everything and he's very sorry. How do I move on and start trusting my husband? Tips from people who have gone through similar experience. It's crazy because I feel so stupid that I trusted so much; I'm an intelligent, normally strong woman with a good career but I now feel so vulnerable! My confidence has been knocked down. God knows what happened to my husband during that period!


Kindone,

I'm really sorry that you have a need to be here. Keep posting.... it helps. There is a lot of support to be found among others who have been where you are. We're all still trying to find our way. My husband is B1, who has already responded to a couple of your posts. We're almost 10 months into reconciliation after my EA/PA. It hasn't been easy for either of us. Reconciliation takes a tremendous amount of time, patience, compassion, understanding, perseverance, humility and a willingness and ability to forgive. That's the short list.....

Hang in there.......


----------



## EI

I sent a pm to Rookie to give to "Sweetie" a couple of days ago in response to Rookie's request. She wanted me to relay a message to all of you ..... so I am simply going to "copy and paste." I hope she doesn't mind.

_"I'm "Sweetie" Rookie's GF and former wife. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your kind words and the others for theirs as well. Please tell them, from me.
I cannot stop weeping. Every day I pray for the grace to be able to put my sins behind me. Not for myself, never for myself, but for my man and my children. I know that I must do it, I know that I am never going to be a complete person until I do. I know that the Lord forgives me and so does my wonderful man. I am trying so hard to make it happen. I cannot talk about it any more. I will finish this later. Thank you again, so much." 
_
I think she sounds just as lovely as Rookie says she is.......


----------



## ChangingMe

EI said:


> Okie-dokie, then, that should settle it, once and for all! Why don't you get that tattooed on the palm of your hand. The next time you are having a bad day, open your hand and read it. Then, if you're still not feeling any better, keep your palm open and use it to knock yourself upside your forehead!
> 
> You don't have to convince the rest of us that you love her... we kind of already figured it out!
> 
> _Jus' kiddin'...... I was jus' makin' a little funny!  Hope you have a sense of humor! :rofl:_


EI, this cracked me up! Fantastic advice! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## calvin

ChangingMe said:


> EI, this cracked me up! Fantastic advice! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Yeah,yeah,yeah.Everyone yuck it up at my expense.
I'm reporting all of you!!!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

calvin said:


> Yeah,yeah,yeah.Everyone yuck it up at my expense.
> I'm reporting all of you!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now you know why I don't let on that I'm half-Welsh. Things like this happen!


----------



## calvin

Rags said:


> Now you know why I don't let on that I'm half-Welsh. Things like this happen!


A Welshkin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Out of seven days I had a half a day that wasn't so good,I'm getting there,I'd like to tatoo some of EI's advice on my body but there isn't enough skin
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

calvin said:


> I'm getting there,I'd like to tatoo some of EI's advice on my body but there isn't enough skin
> ]


I dunno - you might get one epic EI post to fit on your back. 

Be hard to use it for reference, though

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

Robsia - I think the boundary issue regarding your WS and his family is significant. He had mentally drawn a circle that includes him and them, and it excludes you. That means in his mind you were already on the "outside" of a boundary in one sense, and that just made it easier for him to cheat. NOT having that clear mental boundary circle drawn around you and him is a recipe for disaster.

It's important for married people to have a clearly drawn marital boundary circle that includes the couple - in a united front.

(I've just learned this myself from reading Shirley Glass' book - our marital boundary circle wasn't firmly drawn either. Not in terms of family issues, but in other ways.)

If you're breaking the law, or have an addiction, or have a severe credit card debt problem or keep loaning money to someone who is an addict or gambler, there may be good reason for your husband to agree with his family and not you. But other than those types of things (illegal, immoral, or money going down the drain), your spouse should be siding with you.


----------



## EI

Y'all are all funny today...... But, one of us has to get off of TAM and get some work done, now! 

You guys only think you've read all of my epic thoughts...... I've got volumes floating around in my head! But, don't worry, I'll get it all out, eventually!


----------



## Robsia

> But other than those types of things (illegal, immoral, or money going down the drain), your spouse should be siding with you.


Ha - see he and his Catholic family see what I did as immoral. I don't.


----------



## old timer

Robsia said:


> Ha - see he and his Catholic family see what I did as immoral. I don't.


Begs the question: what did you do?


----------



## Acabado

Hi Rookie's "Sweetie".


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rags said:


> you have my sympathies
> 
> (I'm half Welsh, but rarely admit that in public ...!)


Um excuse me!!!!
And what's wrong with being Welsh!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

DevastatedDad said:


> I think you are all related.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CJ_HsX7PkQ


Hmm!
Can't do the rolly eyes icon on my phone DD!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> I think you are all related.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CJ_HsX7PkQ





daisygirl 41 said:


> Hmm!
> Can't do the rolly eyes icon on my phone DD!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol: I'll roll eyes for both of us, daisygirl!  

BTW: DD, you're over here on the "R" thread *inbreeding/slumming with us, right now, ya better be careful..... you might become ..... _one of us_.....  _*gasp_  


*reference to post # 5730 on page 382 by Rags


----------



## Rags

From my mother's 'Xenophobes guide to the Welsh' (paraphrased):

In the pub, 2 men talking.
1: Did you hear about Jones? He got caught out in the field, making time with one of his sheep
2: No! .... So, male, or female sheep?
1: Female! Nowt wrong with Jones!

Umm ....


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rags said:


> From my mother's 'Xenophobes guide to the Welsh' (paraphrased):
> 
> In the pub, 2 men talking.
> 1: Did you hear about Jones? He got caught out in the field, making time with one of his sheep
> 2: No! .... So, male, or female sheep?
> 1: Female! Nowt wrong with Jones!
> 
> Umm ....


And that's why I'm married to an Englishman!
But seriously - I expected more from you Rags than a sheep joke.
Very disappointing!

Nos Da! (Goodnight) : - )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frank29

Rags said:


> From my mother's 'Xenophobes guide to the Welsh' (paraphrased):
> 
> In the pub, 2 men talking.
> 1: Did you hear about Jones? He got caught out in the field, making time with one of his sheep
> 2: No! .... So, male, or female sheep?
> 1: Female! Nowt wrong with Jones!
> 
> Umm ....


Nowt is a Yorkshire word for nothing not welsh at all so it looks the yorkes are in frame


----------



## daisygirl 41

Triggering like mad today guys.
Trying to deal with it in my own way though.
H is on a course today so he'll be home early.
Feeling a bit guarded though.
It's a year on Monday that he finished it with OW and sent me the letter pouring his heart out to me and asking if we could talk. 
So I suppose I'm just feeling a bit all over the place.
Never mind, he'll be home soon and he'll do something stupid to make me
Smile and we'll be ok.

Hope you're all ok. 
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Triggering like mad today guys.
> Trying to deal with it in my own way though.
> H is on a course today so he'll be home early.
> Feeling a bit guarded though.
> It's a year on Monday that he finished it with OW and sent me the letter pouring his heart out to me and asking if we could talk.
> So I suppose I'm just feeling a bit all over the place.
> Never mind, he'll be home soon and he'll do something stupid to make me
> Smile and we'll be ok.
> 
> Hope you're all ok.
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Take care of yourself DG,I know its hard but it will pass
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Thinking of you, DG. Sorry it's a rough day for you. I hope it turns into a good evening.


----------



## cpacan

DG, I know the anniversaries all too well - 2 years past DD comin up next month - last year sucked, still thinking about what I need to do different this year.

For U: Let the dark clouds blow away, there's sunshine above them. Think of something nice, something to appreciate, something be gratefull of. Also, move your thougts from H to yourself, what would you like to be like? Be that person.... and take a look at your avatar

Take care - cyber-hugs for you.


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Triggering like mad today guys.
> Trying to deal with it in my own way though.
> H is on a course today so he'll be home early.
> Feeling a bit guarded though.
> It's a year on Monday that he finished it with OW and sent me the letter pouring his heart out to me and asking if we could talk.
> So I suppose I'm just feeling a bit all over the place.
> Never mind, he'll be home soon and he'll do something stupid to make me
> Smile and we'll be ok.
> 
> Hope you're all ok.
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i'm with you, dg, me too. last year, this was dday week, and today was the day that WH told me one of those face-to-face lies after he had been with her. he met me afterward for dinner & made up the biggest story... gosh it just kills me to remember my H's face as he flat-out lied.


----------



## Robsia

^Those are tough memories to forget/deal with.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thanks all.
I'm sitting outside the sports centre waiting for my daughter to finish her netball game.
The same sports centre my H used to take my daughter swimming with the OW and her kids on a Monday!
And there's me thinking what a great dad he was being!
I think it's Calvin who phrased it so well,
IT SUCKS!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

cpacan said:


> DG, I know the anniversaries all too well - 2 years past DD comin up next month - last year sucked, still thinking about what I need to do different this year.
> 
> For U: Let the dark clouds blow away, there's sunshine above them. Think of something nice, something to appreciate, something be gratefull of. Also, move your thougts from H to yourself, what would you like to be like? Be that person.... and take a look at your avatar
> 
> Take care - cyber-hugs for you.


Thank you for your sweet words.
Almost made me cry!
I'm going to a friends house tonight for a catch up over a bottle of wine, let the demons out and breathe!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

margrace said:


> i'm with you, dg, me too. last year, this was dday week, and today was the day that WH told me one of those face-to-face lies after he had been with her. he met me afterward for dinner & made up the biggest story... gosh it just kills me to remember my H's face as he flat-out lied.


Hugs to you honey. At least we know we are not alone in our sadness. It'll pass, it'll pass
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

Robsia said:


> ^Those are tough memories to forget/deal with.


so true. i know i'm just repeating what other people have ssid, but remembering the lies & the TT is the one of the worst parts of this.

a couple of times this week, the thought has randomly floated into my mind, wow, you tricked me for so long...


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hugs to you honey. At least we know we are not alone in our sadness. It'll pass, it'll pass
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hugs to you too. i wish that none of you had to be in this with me, but it helps to know that you're in this with me


----------



## daisygirl 41

Night out at my friends house called off because of bad weather.
Gonna cwtch up with my daughter on the sofa in front of the fire and watch a girly flick!
(Cwtch- welsh for cuddle)
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rags

daisygirl 41 said:


> And that's why I'm married to an Englishman!
> But seriously - I expected more from you Rags than a sheep joke.
> Very disappointing!
> 
> Nos Da! (Goodnight) : - )
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry to dissapoint - I went with one of the 'tamer' ones (that wouldn't trigger people here ... plenty of those in the repetoire)

I'll withdraw now (pun intended)


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rags said:


> Sorry to dissapoint - I went with one of the 'tamer' ones (that wouldn't trigger people here ... plenty of those in the repetoire)
> 
> I'll withdraw now (pun intended)


: - )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Well you two aren't alone, calvin's having a bad day too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Well you two aren't alone, calvin's having a bad day too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


More like a bad life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

calvin said:


> More like a bad life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop being so upbeat, calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

old timer said:


> Stop being so upbeat, calvin.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No OT,bad day but its getting better,sometimes memories that aren't all that old get into my head and bounce around like a damn 80's pong game.
Also Morrigans waking up and I don't need her and Beo jumping my ass. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

calvin said:


> No OT,bad day but its getting better,sometimes memories that aren't all that old get into my head and bounce around like a damn 80's pong game.
> Also Morrigans waking up and I don't need her and Beo jumping my ass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Get it right...Pong was 70's.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Get it right...Pong was 70's.


Yep,your right Joe,it was.
Brain is missfiring today.....I hated pong,very lame
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

I'm out. I wish all of you guys the best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Wow DD how fab was that!
You have a beautiful family, your babies are sooooo cute!
What a wonderful gesture!

Wow we are all struggling somewhat at the moment.
Had a terrible night. The mind movies are so vivid and real.
I cried my heart out, hubby just holds me, says nothing, don't even think he knows what to say to me anymore but I jut want reassurance, just want him to tell me everything is going to be ok.
But then I feel my defences coming up and I just want to push him away, don't want him near me!
I'm taking the smallest things as rejection and I'm scared.
Just want to get the next couple of days over with then we've got 2 weeks off work together.
We need it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

pidge70 said:


> I'm out. I wish all of you guys the best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You ok Pidge?
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Oh, DD, I'm so sorry. Please don't hide your bad days from me. I was set to ask you about your IC tonight, but then that bed was hell to put together, and the dog tracked paint in the house . . . You were so angry about those things, and I hesitated to bring up other stuff. I apologize for that. It was cowardly of me. 

That video is the most amazing gift I have ever received. The night I came home to that was wonderful, and I am still in awe of how you put that together and pulled it off. I hope you remember how amazed I was at it, how appreciative I was, and how I shared it with everybody. I still feel that way, though now it makes me sad too at all I risked and how badly I took you for granted. 

You not buying me cards is not to blame for my affair. You doing or not doing anything is not to blame -that lies solely on me. There were times throughout the years that I asked you for things -such as acknowledging Valentine's Day or paying more attention to me -and I was turned down, and that made me sad. It in _no_ way justifies what I did or is the cause of it. It also doesn't discount what you did for me with this video. The video is incredible, and an extreme grand gesture, and I loved it and still do. I get where you think cards or flowers are dumb, but it is more the acknowledgement -whether with something small or big -that I am important to you. I know it's hard for you to understand, but the thing I hold in second place that you've done for me was the morning I woke up to post-its around the house and car that said things like, "I love CM." "CM makes me happy." That cost nothing and took little time, but I still know where 4 of those post-its are 7 years and 2 moves later, because they meant so much to me. It's never been about the cost, or the effort, just that it showed I meant something to you. I can't explain it well here; it's hard over type, and it's 4:48, but I couldn't sleep.

You are an amazing man, and a wonderful husband, and I have let you down and hurt you in the worst possible way. There are not words to express how sorry I am and how terrible I feel about that. I have spent the last 9 months attempting to apologize, but the words sound shallow even to me; they are not big enough to make up for what I did. How do you apologize for destroying someone like I have? I am trying, and I will continue to try to show you with my words and actions how much regret I have over what I did, and how I will never do any of the same things again.

I love you DD. I loved you the day I married you, I loved you during the 10 years that we created the memories in that footage, I loved you when you made that video, I loved you during my affair -though I know that is hard to believe but I did, and I love you now. At times I have clearly loved you better than at other times, but that love has always been there. It's still there. I hate that I have hurt you. It is the worst and stupidest thing I have ever done in my life. I hate the pain it has caused you and I hate that it has made you questions the wonderful moments that we had during the years in that video. Those moments were real, that love and care that you see between us in that video is real. I lost sight of that and caused damage to that, and I am so sorry.

I have more I want to say, but this is long enough and you don't like to read. I hope that we can talk later today. I am sorry it has been a rough few days. I have tried to be proactive about asking you how you are, but I don't want to push you when you say "ok" or "just tired." I take that to mean that you are not wanting to get into heavy stuff that night. I know I didn't ask last night, and I apologize for that. Like I said, I was going to, then you got angry with all the other crap, and it seemed like it would make things worse, so I thought I would wait until we were alone Saturday evening. I regret that now; I should have checked in. I really am trying though to be there when and how you want me to be, as well as give you space when you want that. I don't always get it right, and your signals can be very hard to read. I am always here though. I don't constantly ask you, however, because when I did back in the fall, you said that was suffocating. So I still struggle to find that balance of being open to talk and allowing you room to breathe. 

I love you. I really do. I love the man in that video and I love you today.


----------



## calvin

That was cool DD,that was a very heartfelt post CM,it got to me.
I see I'm not the only one who still struggles,I also try to stay quiet when I feel like crap.
I don't post much on my thread if I feel bad,afraid I'll get attacked.
Hope everyone has a good weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Men and women are so different in this area. Its one of the most difficult to bridge. Women want to be wanted. They need to feel appreciated and cherished. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But men see things from the opposite end of the spectrum. When we tune up your car to us that is supposed to tell you that we want you. When we work extra long hours that is us saying "we cherish you and want you to be comfortable." When we work on the house or cut the lawn we are actually saying "we want you to feel safe." So when we do all these things we think we ARE telling you that we want you and cherish you. And once in a while we will do things like DD did. For us that is just going above and beyond once in a while. That is just the icing on the cake. We do it because men are true romantics, especially when we're in love.

Its very hard for a man to act as the leader and the head of the household and do all the mushy things that women seem to want. We think "how can I seem strong and confident while carrying a handful of flowers?" And there's the other side of it too. When women see the commercials on TV for valentine's day they think "aww isn't that sweet." When men see them all we see is some suited up ad executive telling us "you HAVE to do this....you're EXPECTED to do this!" And we blanch at that. We resist because men don't like other men TELLING them what to do.

It's a very difficult balancing act to be sure. So how do we bridge that gap?

I think that women need to be aware of what men do and why we really do them. When he cleans up, or fixes something, or even just runs to the store ask yourself why he is really doing those things? If you think about it most of what a man does he doesn't need to do. He could just say no or simply ignore it all. Its because he loves you and cherishes you and wants you to be happy. He wants to take burdens away from you and make the place you live the friendliest safest place on earth for you. So take joy in those everyday things that he does when he really doesn't want to do them. When he fixes the toilet he is saying I love you so much I am willing to exhaust myself for you. When he gets up early to cut the grass he is saying I am going to do this early so that I can spend the rest of my day with the one that I love. When he takes time to fix your car he is saying you are my world and I want to keep you safe.

And I think men need to be aware just how insecure most women really are. That's not a shot at women but its simply true in most cases. Women look to a man for protection and for support, that's true. But most of all women look to their men for emotional stability and strength. And when we don't show them, and I mean really show them, that we are still committed to them, they get VERY insecure. As good as my marriage is when I get quiet my wife gets nervous. Why? Because she doesn't know what I'm thinking. We men tend to close off too much at times and our women can't read our minds. If the one you depended on suddenly shut off wouldn't you get scared? So we need to show them more often than we do that we do indeed cherish them and love them so when we do inevitably withdraw (as all men do) they will know that its not them. They will know that whatever is wrong it will still be ok. They will know that regardless of how hard things get we still love them. So once in a while send them a card for no reason. Leave a rose on their pillow just because. Stop at the bakery and pick up their favorite dessert and have the baker write on it "With Love." Its the little things that really do matter in life.

Ok this post is approaching EI territory so I'm going to stop now before I get banned from the Reconciliation thread.

(Just kidding EI, if you ever cut back on your posts I will be tremendously hurt)


----------



## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> Wow DD how fab was that!
> You have a beautiful family, your babies are sooooo cute!
> What a wonderful gesture!
> 
> Wow we are all struggling somewhat at the moment.
> Had a terrible night. The mind movies are so vivid and real.
> I cried my heart out, hubby just holds me, says nothing, don't even think he knows what to say to me anymore but I jut want reassurance, just want him to tell me everything is going to be ok.
> But then I feel my defences coming up and I just want to push him away, don't want him near me!
> I'm taking the smallest things as rejection and I'm scared.
> Just want to get the next couple of days over with then we've got 2 weeks off work together.
> We need it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


about taking the smallest things as rejection. I so get that, its scary sometimes. I don't have much to give you on it except I understand.

hang in there dg you can do this.


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## Robsia

Hmm - not sure how I feel about a man cleaning up the house thinking he is taking a burden OFF the woman!!

Surely things like that should be a shared responsibility!

And it was always me that cut the grass. He does do the cars though.

And we sent each other V-cards religiously every year. We also usually went away for romantic weekends too. He still had an affair.

Anyway, we took our first step on the very very long road to R last night - we had our first date night.

It was mostly good. I had to make sure first that he wasn't taking me to anywhere he'd taken her. Luckily, they only went out in her home town, so that won't be a problem so long as I never go there ever.

The food was good, and we talked a lot. We identified a few issues that we need to address in counselling and I told him about my long term plan for the future. I see us now as going right back to the beginning of our relationship. We're dating. We're getting to know each other again. We're just starting out. There's no commitment, no promises, just see how it goes.

Then, after you've dated for a while, if you decide you want to spend the rest of your lives together, you get engaged. I see that as equating to finally fully deciding to R - cancelling the divorce papers, and putting my ring back on again. We're recommitting to each other.

Then comes the next step. When we are fully, totally, 100% past this AND we have fixed the cracks in our M that were there before, we get married, i.e. we renew our vows. We fully recommit all over again.

There are an awful lot of ifs and maybes in there, before we get there. We may never get there. It's a long road.

But it was a good first date and we have the rest of our lives to sort this out - we don't need to do it all on the first day!


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## calvin

Robsia said:


> Hmm - not sure how I feel about a man cleaning up the house thinking he is taking a burden OFF the woman!!
> 
> Surely things like that should be a shared responsibility!
> 
> And it was always me that cut the grass. He does do the cars though.
> 
> And we sent each other V-cards religiously every year. We also usually went away for romantic weekends too. He still had an affair.
> 
> Anyway, we took our first step on the very very long road to R last night - we had our first date night.
> 
> It was mostly good. I had to make sure first that he wasn't taking me to anywhere he'd taken her. Luckily, they only went out in her home town, so that won't be a problem so long as I never go there ever.
> 
> The food was good, and we talked a lot. We identified a few issues that we need to address in counselling and I told him about my long term plan for the future. I see us now as going right back to the beginning of our relationship. We're dating. We're getting to know each other again. We're just starting out. There's no commitment, no promises, just see how it goes.
> 
> Then, after you've dated for a while, if you decide you want to spend the rest of your lives together, you get engaged. I see that as equating to finally fully deciding to R - cancelling the divorce papers, and putting my ring back on again. We're recommitting to each other.
> 
> Then comes the next step. When we are fully, totally, 100% past this AND we have fixed the cracks in our M that were there before, we get married, i.e. we renew our vows. We fully recommit all over again.
> 
> There are an awful lot of ifs and maybes in there, before we get there. We may never get there. It's a long road.
> 
> But it was a good first date and we have the rest of our lives to sort this out - we don't need to do it all on the first day!


Sounds like you are off to a good start Rosbia,its hard and a long process but it can be done,good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

pidge70 said:


> I'm out. I wish all of you guys the best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pidge, so sorry....sorry things are obviously not going well. Anything we can do?


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## calvin

I missed that pidge,I want to see everyone here make it.
I'm sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

B1, what an awesome post. It really helped me to realise, even the small things H does for me are so important.
It's cold out, he just lit the fire to keep me warm, now he's gone to pick the kids up so I don't have to go out in the cold!
The clouds are lifting slowly!
Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

DevastatedDad said:


> Seems like a safe place to post this.
> 
> I have had a hard couple days but I have kept it to myself.
> IC was tough tonight.
> 
> I have never cared too much about little gestures.
> This is the gesture I am most proud of in my marriage
> 
> 10 year anniversary project
> 
> spent about 6 months putting this together. Lots of effort. Lots of money, lots of work. Hell, I hired a voice over guy. Who does that?
> 
> but I never bought her valentines day cards
> 
> Now, I feel like the $2.99 cards would have prevented the affair. and the thing I considered the most amazing is worthless.
> 
> sorry. I have been hiding my bad day from CM.
> watch that video. That is the kind of guy I am. I don't do the trivial sh!t but when I do something.....


Wow DD, amazing. I bet she did love that. Sorry your having a rough time, so many are right now. 

Try not to hold things in, let it out. Talk to cm let her know how you feel. You have to talk this stuff out, whether you stay or leave to get resolve you must communicate to move beyond the hurt and anger. 

And you need to deal with and get past this anger, If you can't do it for cm right now then you need to do it for yourself and your kids. 

Like the forest gump movie says run forest run....
I'm saying talk dd talk


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## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> B1, what an awesome post. It really helped me to realise, even the small things H does for me are so important.
> It's cold out, he just lit the fire to keep me warm, now he's gone to pick the kids up so I don't have to go out in the cold!
> The clouds are lifting slowly!
> Thank you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG, I believe you mean Bfree, and yes it was an awesome post. He's a very wise and intuitive man.


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## daisygirl 41

B1 said:


> DG, I believe you mean Bfree, and yes it was an awesome post. He's a very wise and intuitive man.


Oh yes my mistake. Thankyou bfree for a wonderful post!
You have been a busy man this past week and still found the energy to write an awesome post.
Bless you!

And Thankyou B1 for starting this thread. It is a life saver at times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

how many marriages survive infidelity? I know we both want it..well I know 100% that I do..not so sure what he's thinking besides always thinking about my EA. I'm so sorry I did this, I love calvin so much, but would he be happier without me? I mean to the BS' that are struggling...what do you think? Worth staying or thinkin of leaving? I get so many mixed signals from him it's making me insane.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



CantSitStill said:


> how many marriages survive infidelity? I know we both want it..well I know 100% that I do..not so sure what he's thinking besides always thinking about my EA. I'm so sorry I did this, I love calvin so much, but would he be happier without me? I mean to the BS' that are struggling...what do you think? Worth staying or thinkin of leaving? I get so many mixed signals from him it's making me insane.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, stop that thinking right now! It's normal for Calvin to go back and forth. If he didn't then it would mean he's already checked out and that hasn't happened has it? Would he be happier without you? Would Beowulf be happier without Morrigan? After all she cheated as well. Would I be happier without my wife? She's not perfect. She's getting older. Maybe I should find a younger model. Think so? NO NO NO! Calvin loves you and you love Calvin. You made a very bad decision. That DOES NOT DEFINE YOU! Every day you need to prove that you are the one for him. Every day you need to show him that you can make him happier than any other woman in the world. So far I'm pretty darn sure you've done that. Keep going and going and going...... It's called marriage and that's what it's all about. You and Calvin proving each and every day that you are each others perfection.

Besides, judging from your thread if you step aside Calvin and bandit will end up together and that's tiptop horrible to contemplate.


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## daisygirl 41

CSS I can only speak for myself but even on the worst days I never think of leaving because the days I was without him were much worse.
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Thank you that helps
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

daisygirl 41 said:


> CSS I can only speak for myself but even on the worst days I never think of leaving because the days I was without him were much worse.
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've seen you post about the rough stuff that goes thru your head. You really mean that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Well nevermind, I was right..he is purposely distancing himself from me. I told another man I loved him so I don't deserve calvin's love. This is hard. I knew he was wanting a divorce. I could feel it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

CSS, just my observation, but Saturdays when Calvin has worked a lot extra always seem to be rough for you guys. A few days ago he was gushing about his love for you and your streak of good days. If he is "purposefully distancing himself" it basically started today, so I think accepting divorce is inevitable is putting the cart WAY in front of the horse at this point. I'm willing to bet that after some relaxation, the two of you will talk and this will smooth over again. It has every other similar weekend. If it were a pattern of longer term distancing I'd be more worried. Keep you head up and show him some love and pampering. He needs it after all this overtime. You'll be ok!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

It was a test, he texted me from the store and said he don't want me and is done with me. He just told me it was to get me to feel a bit of what I put him through. I have diareaah ugg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Ok,here's the deal.CSS fvcked my head up bad,yes I want her to feel a sliver of what I had to go through,I had to sleep in a homeless shelter,I almost took my life,I was treated like crap,made to sleep upstairs for two months,told I wasn't loved,told to my face that she wanted the ex-con,I almost killed people at work by accident.
The POSOM would not leave me alone for a year,telling me I owed him money for CSS's abortion,he set up fights that he ran from,talked about my kids,told me he f'd my wife all over the house,threatened to come over and do it again many times,tole me he came in her mouth,that this was between CSS and him,that she's always been his and always will.
That's just a sampling of what I heard.
When I begged her to help me I was told I was on my own a few times.She loved him,met with him,told him to call our house.
I brought up MC years ago a few times and was shot down every time.When I cried I was told I wasn't a man by CSS,that was when I knew something was going on.
For years I was rejected physically,she actually thought I married her for sex??????
She tried to get me out of the house so she could date him,he tried to move in.
How much can one man take?I will not cry anymore even if someone dies,I'm afraid I won't be viewed as a man.POS was a man in her eyes not me.
At least I ruined the POS's life,what little he had,the homeless broke ass loser.
He had prison sex,what would have happened to CSS??
I tried to save her and ultimately I had success.
I was told everything,everything was my fault,so excuse me if it taking me awhile to get over all this.
On the plus side,CSS now knows what could have happened to her and I believe she loves me.
It was not fair for me to go through all this crap,it has affected me pretty bad.
I don't think I will divorce her or go for revenge,yes I wanted her to feel some of this,she will never know what I went through,never feel the pain I felt felt.
I'm tired of working so many hours,CSS has not really tried to find a job very hard.I can't keep this pace up another twenty years.
Today I promised her I will really give R my best shot.
I'm so fvcked in the head its not funny,I have lost a lot of what I used to be.
I will never go through this again,at the first sign of infidelity I am gone for good.
No one deserves this crap,talk about a test.
I love CSS and I'm trying my butt of here

Ok,rant over.Thank you for listening to the crazy man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

One thing I have never done is give up easy,just not in my nature,I wasn't brought up that way.
People from Kentucky go down swinging.
I do hate living near Chicago,I'm packing up my stuff and moving in with B1 and EI. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I hate the sick stuff he said, he did not talk that way around me. I am willing to take a lie detector if calvin thinks these things are true. It's so discusting, makes me sick. This guy that I had an EA with was really out to kill calvin and my relationship. He acted like a totally different person than he really is. He acted shy and did not even make any moves on me.. Why would he try and ruin a marriage? From what we found out, he's ruined other marriages. I really coulda got hurt, raped who knows what had I not got away from him.. Do not think I am blaming the exOM for the EA I persued him. I looked him up and I got a hold of him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin, you are the strongest man I've known. Even going through what you are going through you still took the time to help give me strength when I was weak. When I told you in many ways you remind me of Beowulf I meant it. You both have an inner core that just won't let you quit. He could and should have quit on me many times but he never would and if I live to be 1000 years old I can never repay him for all he's done for me. But he was and is always completely open about his failures and his problems. How he was stubborn, had anger issues, was emotionally distant and more. He and Morrigan worked together on their issues and supported each other growing as individuals and as a couple. You have that same strength and resolve and CSS is just as determined as Morrigan. You two are on a path of redemption and will get there quicker as a team than apart.


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## happyman64

I do not think you are crazy Calvin.

I do think you have been very hurt and tormented for a good period of time.

And what you texted CSS today was to hurt her back. To share some of your hurt with her.

Are you happy you did it?

Did it make you feel any better?

Does hurting CSS make your situation any better?

Think of those 3 questions. You do not have to answer them.

Read the book Calvin. The way you act out sometimes is very similar to the main character.

It is called Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. And you can get help for it. I bet Thorburn is an expert on PTSD.

I hope you find some peace soon buddy.

HM64


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## CantSitStill

Thank you Bfree..Calvin is stubborn but that means he never gives up. Our daughter has that stubborness too and at times that's a good thing. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Thanks Hm and bfree.
I'm no beo but I am detemind,yes i wanted her to feel just some of what i went through,not all but some.
In hindsight it was wrong and stupid.
I'm trying,hard.
We will get there.


----------



## CantSitStill

Happyman64 if it did help him feel better then I am glad because he needs to heal. He needs me to feel his pain. I have felt very very sick and a barely taking care of myself but he says that is a sliver compared to what I put him thru. Whatever it takes. Right now I believe me getting a job will help alot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

She said she wants to go with me on my trip,thats a good thing


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## B1

Calvin,
I'm so sorry you had to hear those things, that's horrible. Calvin, seriously, that's some tough stuff to deal with. You were forced to relive the A over and over in a very foul and disgusting way. 

What a true pos that om was. 

Hang in there Calvin your doing just fine.

Edit:
Talked it over with the family Calvin and your in. Let us know when your on your way down and we will have a room ready


----------



## CantSitStill

This guy is f*cking crazy and I believe he deserves to go back to prison.. Every day I ask myself what the heck was wrong with me? What was I thinking? Seiously, he's a con artist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

ChangingMe said:


> Oh, DD, I'm so sorry. Please don't hide your bad days from me. I was set to ask you about your IC tonight, but then that bed was hell to put together, and the dog tracked paint in the house . . . You were so angry about those things, and I hesitated to bring up other stuff. I apologize for that. It was cowardly of me.
> 
> That video is the most amazing gift I have ever received. The night I came home to that was wonderful, and I am still in awe of how you put that together and pulled it off. I hope you remember how amazed I was at it, how appreciative I was, and how I shared it with everybody. I still feel that way, though now it makes me sad too at all I risked and how badly I took you for granted.
> 
> You not buying me cards is not to blame for my affair. You doing or not doing anything is not to blame -that lies solely on me. There were times throughout the years that I asked you for things -such as acknowledging Valentine's Day or paying more attention to me -and I was turned down, and that made me sad. It in _no_ way justifies what I did or is the cause of it. It also doesn't discount what you did for me with this video. The video is incredible, and an extreme grand gesture, and I loved it and still do. I get where you think cards or flowers are dumb, but it is more the acknowledgement -whether with something small or big -that I am important to you. I know it's hard for you to understand, but the thing I hold in second place that you've done for me was the morning I woke up to post-its around the house and car that said things like, "I love CM." "CM makes me happy." That cost nothing and took little time, but I still know where 4 of those post-its are 7 years and 2 moves later, because they meant so much to me. It's never been about the cost, or the effort, just that it showed I meant something to you. I can't explain it well here; it's hard over type, and it's 4:48, but I couldn't sleep.
> 
> You are an amazing man, and a wonderful husband, and I have let you down and hurt you in the worst possible way. There are not words to express how sorry I am and how terrible I feel about that. I have spent the last 9 months attempting to apologize, but the words sound shallow even to me; they are not big enough to make up for what I did. How do you apologize for destroying someone like I have? I am trying, and I will continue to try to show you with my words and actions how much regret I have over what I did, and how I will never do any of the same things again.
> 
> I love you DD. I loved you the day I married you, I loved you during the 10 years that we created the memories in that footage, I loved you when you made that video, I loved you during my affair -though I know that is hard to believe but I did, and I love you now. At times I have clearly loved you better than at other times, but that love has always been there. It's still there. I hate that I have hurt you. It is the worst and stupidest thing I have ever done in my life. I hate the pain it has caused you and I hate that it has made you questions the wonderful moments that we had during the years in that video. Those moments were real, that love and care that you see between us in that video is real. I lost sight of that and caused damage to that, and I am so sorry.
> 
> I have more I want to say, but this is long enough and you don't like to read. I hope that we can talk later today. I am sorry it has been a rough few days. I have tried to be proactive about asking you how you are, but I don't want to push you when you say "ok" or "just tired." I take that to mean that you are not wanting to get into heavy stuff that night. I know I didn't ask last night, and I apologize for that. Like I said, I was going to, then you got angry with all the other crap, and it seemed like it would make things worse, so I thought I would wait until we were alone Saturday evening. I regret that now; I should have checked in. I really am trying though to be there when and how you want me to be, as well as give you space when you want that. I don't always get it right, and your signals can be very hard to read. I am always here though. I don't constantly ask you, however, because when I did back in the fall, you said that was suffocating. So I still struggle to find that balance of being open to talk and allowing you room to breathe.
> 
> I love you. I really do. I love the man in that video and I love you today.


Look, I know you are an interesting couple with modern ways of looking at the world, but why in the name of goodness did you let your dog do any painting in the first place?  I mean... aren't dogs colourblind? :scratchhead:
:rofl:


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> how many marriages survive infidelity? I know we both want it..well I know 100% that I do..not so sure what he's thinking besides always thinking about my EA. I'm so sorry I did this, I love calvin so much, but would he be happier without me? I mean to the BS' that are struggling...what do you think? Worth staying or thinkin of leaving? I get so many mixed signals from him it's making me insane.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh? Just like he might be happier without his left leg, huh?

No. He wouldn't. You are his world, you and your kids...:smthumbup:


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Happyman64 if it did help him feel better then I am glad because he needs to heal. He needs me to feel his pain. I have felt very very sick and a barely taking care of myself but he says that is a sliver compared to what I put him thru. Whatever it takes. Right now I believe me getting a job will help alot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS you already have your own pain too. Calvin, look at the words of EI, CM, even Morrigan when she was still on TAM and others. They hurt...a lot. Before I met Beowulf and ultimately Morrigan I did not have a very good opinion of those that committed adultery. I was one of those that thought once a cheater always a cheater. I didn't think that any WS could possibly feel even close to the amount of pain that a BS feels. Then after I met Morrigan I had an epiphany. It doesn't matter how much pain each of us feels. I have a fairly high pain threshold. I have cut myself pretty badly and just threw on a little duct tape and kept on working. Mrs bfree can't even stand to have a splinter removed. But is her pain any less than mine? She feels pain just like me. Who am I to say she feels less or I feel more. Pain is pain and trying to compare it is a useless endeavor. Its like comparing grains of sand on a beach. I looked into Morrigan's eyes when she talked about how she had hurt Beowulf. Once I did that I could never question the pain that a WS goes through. I could feel her pain and sorrow. It was palpable and evident. If you ever can't seem to recognize CSS's remorse and sorrow just read any of the posts by the other fWS here on TAM. You'll see her remorse through them if you really look for it.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Calvin, I sent you a PM. Both of you hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hey guys, I know everyone is going through a lot and I feel like I need to post something deep and profound,  but I'm tired, mentally and physically exhausted, right now. So even when I'm not posting, I'm always reading and you all are always in my thoughts and prayers..... every single day. I don't want to address one of you unless I can address each of you and I just don't have it in me tonight...... But, if you need me, I'm just a pm away.

I do love the way everyone takes care of each other on this thread. 


~EI


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## CantSitStill

Thanks EI..I'm emotionally drained but will prolly talk to you tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Do you all find it easier to be with your WS or without them. I mean, physically in the presence of.

I cope better when my WH and I are together as simply being with him, having him hold me, helps me through the bad times.

But when I am alone, I remember the hurt and pain and the anger just floods back.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Robsia said:


> Do you all find it easier to be with your WS or without them. I mean, physically in the presence of.
> 
> I cope better when my WH and I are together as simply being with him, having him hold me, helps me through the bad times.
> 
> But when I am alone, I remember the hurt and pain and the anger just floods back.


It's always easier when I have him near. A bit like a security blanket maybe?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Robsia said:


> Do you all find it easier to be with your WS or without them. I mean, physically in the presence of.
> 
> I cope better when my WH and I are together as simply being with him, having him hold me, helps me through the bad times.
> 
> But when I am alone, I remember the hurt and pain and the anger just floods back.


I find it easier when I'm with EI, I can be driving home full of bad thoughts and images, then when I get home and see EI it can all just fade away. 9 times out of 10 I don't even discuss those bad things with her. I can let them go.

So, in short, yes it's Better when I am with her. I cope Better, handle things better, being with her just helps. 

Now, I have noticed with time, I am doing better when I am away. But if I have a really bad moment, it's almost always when I'm away from her, not always but almost.


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## CantSitStill

Yes Calvin triggers more when he's at work or not home with me..sometimes I can tell when he gets home he feels better after seeing me going to him for a hug and kiss. So I guess the majority vote yes here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I just don't care anymore,I was put through a lot of crap through no choice of mine.How could someone do that to another person?
I accept half of the marriage going South,I will never take all the blame.
I hate that I let myself be strung along by her and took whatever scraps I could get.I was told by her how much she fough for our marriage and at the time I believed it.
She said over and over how "broken" she was during her affair and I agreed,I fvcking agreed to everything she said,I was such an idiot.
I don't know what to do anymore.Books? I will try them.
Promises? They are empty and not followed through.
What I thought would kill me,no longer has that effect,I have been on my own since 16,I don't need anyone,especially someone who took me to the brink and didn't care about what would happen to me.
I don't understand,I really don't.I have never thrown someone away,its sad.

I will never get how someone can inflict pain on someone else and then turn lose a nutcase on another for a year.
I'm close to giving up,there doesn't seem to be any point.

B1,I'm kidding about staying with you but I do appreciate the offer,I believe you and EI ment it.
I'll stay with my brother,he's not blood but he is my brother non the less.
He would never hurt me,I trust him.
I don't know what to do anymore.
I didn't ask for this,I don't deserve it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

No did not ask for this to happen Calvin.

And no you did not deserve this to happen.

But it did happen. And you have to deal with it.

Half the battle is figuring out how to deal with it.

The other half is actually doing it.

You are on your way though. Just being on TAM and talking with all of us shows us and CSS that you want to deal with the issues.

The key is getting to the next step.

One day at a time Calvin.


And I do agree with CSS that her having a job would help take some of the stress off your shoulders.. Hint. Hint.

HM64


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## calvin

I was reading "His Needs,Her Needs"
I got to page 22,something I saw mentioned being physical lovers.
I have asked CSS before if she ever thought about being sexual with the POS.It was always no "I wanted to bet to know him"
I asked that question many times,I asked again today while reading the book.
I asked if she ever considered being his lover,the answer was yes she did.
I' losing it,I can't do this,she actually thought about having sex with him.
I don't think I can go foward anymore,I want out.
Yeah,before anyone says "well they didn't" thinking about it is just as bad to me.
I'm fvcking tore up right now,I don't care.The POS even tolded her he got fvcked in prison and she still thought about being his lover??????
Someone help me,I'm close to losing it and that's not like me,I want to chuck it all.
Fvck me over and over,why????
I don't care,we are not good for eachother.If a ex-con who broke up other families is what she wanted then she can have him.
Her lover?? Really???
Oh God help me,I can't do this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Someone talk me down please,I'm giving up.
I feel I'd be better with someone else and there is no one else.
I'm fvcking freaking,I told her I want a damn D and I do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

calvin said:


> Someone talk me down please,I'm giving up.
> I feel I'd be better with someone else and there is no one else.
> I'm fvcking freaking,I told her I want a damn D and I do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, sorry you're freaking out, bad day I guess. From what I read I will say... it definitely looks as if CSS still loves you very much, and it's quite obvious that you love her too. Did anything in the real world change today?? I bet not.

So why would a book do any difference in that direction? C'mon... it's your thoughts messing with you - call them out on it, don't let them get to you. Focus on good things, right now, you can do this.


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## CantSitStill

He asked if I ever thought we would be future lovers..I said well yeah I thought it might be a possibility down the road after I get to know him. I don't see how he is taking it as me wanting to have sex with him.. I really didn't plan anything but to date him and get to know him. Yes that's bad enough but I really didn't sis around and think about sex with him. I think Calvin is looking for reasons to D. I won't give up on him but I think he's really done. He gave it a year. We are way more passionate now and we treat eachother much better now but I can't take his hurt away. It just won't go away : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Calvin,

Edit:Sorry didn't see your latest when I wrote this one responding to earlier post... But I'm leaving it because I think the point about your Dday is a good one.

It can seem pointless but it's not. Well, unless you are finished with trying. The point to all this hurt and trying is finding happiness with CSS, being happily married and feeling secure in that.

I honestly think CSS loves you and can give you that security and even happiness. Question is can you hang in there and let this happen even when it seems pointless. Can you handle what she did, let it go and move forward? 

A big part of handling this is knowing and believing CSS is sorry and I think she is. But do you?

You are only a year into this, add on that being taunted for most of that time and all this is still very fresh for you. I, for one, forgot about the taunting, so when you say x amount of days past Dday, in a way this posom kept that Dday very fresh in your mind.

Im going out on a limb here....
I think your Dday is more like when the taunting stopped. Technically contact was still being maintained, granted it was with you but still... For me the xom disappeared after Dday, he was gone, guess I'm lucky. For you though him hanging around did as much a number on you as anything and that didn't stop until what..a month or so ago?

So....I don't think your as far out from Dday as you think.


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## daisygirl 41

Calvin, maybe you need to take a break from the situation. Have some time on your own to figure out whether not you really want to save your marriage. 
Your pain is very evident, your mental anguish is just heartbreaking. Just take some time out for yourself and put everything else on hold. 
One day at a time my friend!
DG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Calvin, steady on, old chap! Stiff upper lip and so on! Get yourself a nice cup of sweet tea for you and CSS.

Drink them together and chill...


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## cpacan

I have gradually gotten better and better at handling myself and my feelings by strictly focus on the present. It works almost every time the negative and sad thoughts try to take over. Awareness and focus bring me back to a place where I can make things work again, meaning I can function and find happyness somewhere and somehow. Triggers are handled the same way. My wife even seems to want our relationship too and we get along quite well these days.

So, all is good, or better I might say. However, yesterday I had a bad trigger that I couldn't get rid of, and I could use some ideas from you, R-people. I think I may not have mentioned this before, so here's the back story.

I believe that my wife has told me close to everything there is to learn about her 9-months affair, that I discovered. In the aftermath where I demanded 100% openness and everything on the table, she also revealed a drunken ONS 20 years ago (early 90's). This incident almost evaporated by the magnitude of the recent affair, so we didn't discuss that much. She swears that there is nothing more to confess - and I would very much like t believe it, and it feels like the truth in one way. But i have learned to listen to my gut feeling about these matters.

And... there's a catch, and I'm going to admit to you, that I may look like a complete idiot and maybe I am, I certainly feel stupid. In May 2002 I had my first treatment for genital warts (HPV), but I may have carried it for a year or two before realizing it and seeking treatment. I didn't think much of it at the time (I know, I know), I remember we discussed it, and concluded that it must have been from a borrowed towel or something, because I hadn't had sex with anyone besides my wife since 1985.

Today everything is different and everything seems possible. This incident has bothered me on a frequent basis, I have asked her, but she swears there's nothing more to tell. I have researched HPV and found that the incubation period is from 3-9 months, but it varies to extremes from being dormant for years etc. This timeline may bring me back to the first 6 months of year 2000 where we lived seperately due to a change in career for me (we were together in weekends), and she would have had all opportunity in the world to cheat on me leaving me absolutely no chance to discover it.
I have no way of verifying whether there was more affiars at that time or not, so I use to let the thoughts go when they appear. But yesterday we were at a party, and it turns out that the hostess are doing a thesis on HPV-vaccine and breast cancer screening. During this conversation my head melted down and I had to leave the room to get a hold on myself. My wife joined me a bit later and asked if I was upset, I said yes, and she said sorry, and that she hadn't had any more sexual partners than those I knew about.

This was yesterday, and today I'm distant, can't seem to let the thoughts go. Google HPV a few times, calculate the timeline again re-discovering that my oldest DD may not even be mine (born in the beginning of 2001), and I'm just..... well, I don't know how to deal with this. 
If she tells the truth, fine, I can leave it and be happy, but I also realize that I may be a complete idiot to believe this, and that she may protect someone, because it most likely would be with someone I know.

I also realize when I'm writing this, that the same thing that I told Calvin applies to me - nothing has changed, so why bother, but still....

Any thoughts or ideas on how to deal with this sandwich?


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## calvin

Dg,B1,EI,CPA..thank you all.
I have been in one fubar place for the last few day,pretty rough but I know as BS's and WS's alike you all know haow that feels.
I tend to wear my damn heart on my sleeve,that's not a good thing to do.
I might have triggered some people here,I'm sorry if I did.I didn't mean it.I went nuts for awhile.
Me and CSS had a pretty good talk,I had to go to the bathroom to fvcking cry,I don't do that.I am a man.its not allowed.
I don't know if it was something that needed to get out of my system but I'm better.
CSS is giving me hugs and that is my weakness,if she does that noatter how bad I am it melts me down after awhile.

Mrs.M,thank you for taking the time to PM me a couple times last night,I'm thanful for it.
Gonna spent a little time withh CSS and make the most of tonight.
Thank you all,I went nuts there for a couple days.
I won't let you all down.
I apologize for being an idiot.
I'll get it straight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Just wanna say thank you EI for talking to Calvin. We talked after you talked and we decided to switch the books we are reading. He is just not ready for HisNeeds Her Needs. The other bookd is more about communication. It's called Fight Less Love More. We are planning our trip. Yes I am going with him. We aren't great but we are willing to keep trying. He asked alot of questions and I explained everything the best I could because honestly I had no"plan" with the exOM and sex wasn't really a plan but I can't say that it might not have been if we had continued to see eachother for a long time..I mean it when I say a long time too. We are thinking of doing a post-nup type thingy. I have no problem doing that because I know I will not ever come near to cheating on him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I know he has to find a way to get thru His Needs Her Needs but maybe I should pencil in parts to warn him where it might trigger him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

CPA,
I have to admit, The hpv would bother me a lot. I just don't know what to tell you. What would I do.... I would do what I know you are already doing, research it. I know your thinking about a poly too, I sure would be. Again, not sure how I would handle this. Choose to believe and trust and move on or question it all and go crazy.

I would at least see if she is up for a poly, see how she reacts to that.

I don't think a paternity test is too big a deal is it? 

You could, if you wanted to pursue this, get some answers. If your gut is screaming something's not right then I am inclined to think something is not right. Not sure I buy getting hpv from a towel or something like that. Then again I have not looked into it at all, maybe it does transfer easily like that.

I know there isn't much help here, so sorry I couldn't give you more


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## CantSitStill

I just wanna say..My sister was a virgin till her wedding day but her husband wasn't. She had been to her gyno plenty of times. She had that HPV thing and they said it had to of been from her hubby but it took years for it to show up in her so it could possibly be from a girl you were with years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Calvin

Why on earth would you think you are letting us down!

We can all see how troubled you are and have been for a few weeks.

Know this Calvin.

We are all here for you in some capacity.

Get some rest. And lean on CSS's shoulder Calvin.

That is why she is there for you among many other reasons buddy.

Peace.

HM64


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## Rookie4

Howdy, folks, Rookie and Sweetie have returned. Sweetie's Mom, my ex mil, had knee replacement surgery on Friday and we have been with her since about Wednesday. She is doing fine and will make a full recovery. 
Now to CSS and Calvin. Cal, what do you think will happen if you D? I did it and can tell you that D solves nothing except the legal issues. Will D give you peace? Will D remove the images and thoughts from your mind? Will D make you happy and fulfilled? Yes and No. Yes, if you no longer love your partner. No, if there are still feelings for her. If you truly love CSS as you say you do, you need to realize that the worst day with her is probably going to be better than the best day without her. You also need to realize that she is never going to feel the same pain that you did. She isn't you.
I divorced Sweetie and had about 20 or so flings with other women, and none of them were as great as the first night we spent together after 2 1/2 years of separation. Conclusion? Do the work, and reap the rewards of having a woman who is yours for the asking. Worrying about the past is useless, learning from the past is crucial. What we all have is the future, and we can all have a successful one. Let all of us, WS and BS, work to make our future happen the way we want it to, with the person we want to share it with. DO THE WORK AND REAP THE REWARDS.


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## daisygirl 41

Morning everyone. Feeling a lot better today. I truly hope I didn't contribute to everyone's bad weekend. I am very careful about posting here when I am feeling so low as the last thing I want to do is to trigger anyone else, but I was being selfish and really needed support and you guys didn't let me down. Thankyou!

Calvin, glad you are feeling more yourself now.
CSS I truly hope you weren't offended by me suggesting Calvin taking some time for himself. I think sometimes we just have to take a step away from all the drama to realise what it is we really want. I just wanted Calvin to take a breath, a step back and have some time to himself to sort his head out, I wasn't suggesting for one minute that you divorce and I hope it didn't come across that way, if it did, I apologise.

Cpacan - I was also diagnosed with HPV 2 years ago and have recently undergone laser treatment to cure it. I too ha e had the same fears as you, that H may have cheated on me previously, he swears that this is not the case, what can I do? I have to believe him. Again I realise it can lay dormant for years, but how many years? We have been together a life time! 
If I was you I would have the paternity test done on your daughter to set your mind at rest as this is something that can't be ignored. If you are truly concerned there is a chance she isn't yours then you need to do it. I don't think those thought will go away unless you are sure. 
As far a believing your wife? I don't know! Do we ever really know the truth about everything? I honestly don't think we do, but you have to decide if you are 'happy' with her explanations, her answers and then think about what your future holds. With everything you now know, do you trust her now? Do you trust (as much as you can) that she won't cheat on you again? 
Maybe that's what we all need to do more of, look at what we have now, stop looking backwards so much and look to the future.
Easier said than done, I know!
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Editing to add: didt some research this morning CPA and aparently the HPV virus can lay dormant for many many years and only rear it's ugly head when the immune system is low or has gone through some changes. Still a bit concerning but aparently up to 80% of women can be carrying the virus at any one time and you wouldn't know it.


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## margrace

Robsia said:


> Do you all find it easier to be with your WS or without them. I mean, physically in the presence of.
> 
> I cope better when my WH and I are together as simply being with him, having him hold me, helps me through the bad times.
> 
> But when I am alone, I remember the hurt and pain and the anger just floods back.


good morning everyone -- away for a few days.

robsia, i'm like the others who have answered. always better when WH is physically present. the one exception is at night, when everything stops and i should be falling asleep. it's like i let my guard down then and things drift into my mind....


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## calvin

Morning all,already been at work for an hour...yawn,tired.
Yes I believe I feel better when I am with CSS,I trigger more at work,its where I got a lot of text from the POS and where I almost killed those guys with the coilbay crane.
Feel much better today,sometimes I can get into a pretty deep dark place and its hard to get back out,when I get home CSS usually makes me feel better with her hugs and kisses.
CSS is going on the trip with me and I believe that will do us both good,its been awhile since we took a road trip together and I'm looking forward to it.
B1 and EI,we'd love to have supper with you guys but let's keep in simple please,nothing fancy,looking forward to seeing you guys in person.Maybe me and B1 will hang out at the bar. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Glad you're feeling better today Calvin.
Have a good shift!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Yesterday was tough. I had been reading stuff I’d written from before, and I re-read an old Mumsnet post from November when I first found out about the texting, and re-reading all the lies he’d fed me back then. That was hard. Then we were going to my parents’ for Sunday dinner and dd1 played love songs on the radio which got me.

Then when we got there, I was already upset and the first thing my Dad said was, “How are you?” I answered “Oh, wonderful,” and went and sat in the conservatory on my own. Then he came in and asked me what was the matter. I was instantly annoyed. How could they forget so easily? Was I supposed to get over it just like that? So I was a bit grumpy and told him not to ask stupid questions.

Now I know I was a grumpy mare, it’s not their fault, but they have no concept of how I’m feeling.

Then mum came in and asked rather sarcastically if I was happy sitting out here all by myself. I started to say, “Happy is so far from how I’m feeling right now,” but I had barely started before she interrupted me and totally spoke over me, talking about something else entirely. So I figured if she didn’t have the courtesy to listen to what I was saying I wouldn’t say anything, so I shut up. Then she just turned round, said “Please yourself,” really nastily and walked out. They both ignored me for about an hour then my dad came back.

I didn’t even broach the subject of me and WH trying again – they wouldn’t understand that at all.

Things picked up a little bit after that, although Mum forgot I was on a diet and gave me far too much food. I managed to offload my sausage and my chicken skin to dd1 (although I adore chicken skin), my other roast potato to Dad, although I did keep the second yorkshire pudding – they are only 50 cals – I figured I could handle an extra 50 cals.

WH and I FT-ed when dd1 had gone to bed. I vented at him, telling him about Mum and Dad, and I was angry. Partly at them for not understanding, and partly at him for making this all have happened to begin with. I asked him about some things I had remembered from our November conversation. At the time we were having it, I know now that OW and he had already had sex. So there we were having a conversation about how I would react if he’d met someone else, and he already had! At that point, they were all happy and loved up. She liked him, he liked her, they had already begun their physical relationship. So, then I find out, at least about the texting. He and I have a conversation. THAT would have been the ideal point to call it off with me. So I asked him, why didn’t he?

Apparently, he can’t remember!! I told him he should have called it off with me. And then, when she dumped him, he would have come crawling back and I would have told him to bog off – ha ha!! I didn’t tell him that last bit though.

So then we got onto the topic of the state of our relationship at the time, which was a bit crap TBH. Then starts the blame game. He uses his favourite line, “I shouldn’t have to tell you what you’ve said/done wrong,” which makes me see red every single time. Clearly, if I don’t know what it is I’ve done wrong this time then he DOES have to tell me. If he doesn’t tell me, then how will I know? This is an old argument and one which never ends well.

This time it ends when he says, “Can you just stop talking because you’re starting to piss me off.” So I end the call. But then after a few minutes, I text him saying, “Maybe we should keep the tricky conversations for counselling. I think if we try them alone we’re like a boat without a rudder. We just go round in circles. We can’t sort it out ourselves, that much is obvious. That’s why we needs counselling x” So it doesn’t end too badly. We say goodnight and sign off with kisses, and then he texted me good morning this morning.

But we have such a long way to go, it scares me. The only thing I know is that I do love him, and that if we could have a good marriage I would grab it with both hands. But I’m not sure it’s going to be enough.


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## calvin

Thanks DG,I am feeling really good today.
Rosbia,sometimes people don't know what to say to their loved ones when It comes to infidelity so they tend to tip toe around it,they feel uncomfortable.
As far as your husband not remembering certain things of the A,there are somethings CSS can't remember also,when it does come back to her she tells me.
I feel you and your husband really do need counseling,he should not get upset with you or snip at you at all.
He MUST do the heavy lifting,he is the one responsable for the affair,although both people played a part in the marriage going down hill,the WS needs to be there for the betrayed and do everything they can to comfort and help the BS heal.
You both are still very early into this,take your time and don't be afraid to let him know you are hurting.
I'm praying things get better for you both soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

^We're having our first MC appt. tomorrow. He doesn't get snippy with me about the A - he knows he is totally to blame for that. But he feels I should take responsibility for the problems in the M. Which I would - if I knew what my part in it was.

I have Asperger's (un-dx but pretty certain) so I have trouble understanding other people's feelings, and sometimes I genuinely have no clue what it is that I've done or said that has annoyed him. And he won't tell me. He says he shouldn't have to tell me. So there I am, all confused, while he is angry at me for something I know not what.

He said last night that it would do no good to tell me, as I would just deny it. He has a point. There have been times when he HAS told me what I've done or said, and I do get defensive, as I don't see anything wrong with what it is I have done or said.

That's something I will need to deal with as I come to terms with my Asperger's. But I need to know, otherwise I can't.


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## margrace

calvin said:


> Dg,B1,EI,CPA..thank you all.
> I have been in one fubar place for the last few day,pretty rough but I know as BS's and WS's alike you all know haow that feels.
> I tend to wear my damn heart on my sleeve,that's not a good thing to do.
> I might have triggered some people here,I'm sorry if I did.I didn't mean it.I went nuts for awhile.
> Me and CSS had a pretty good talk,I had to go to the bathroom to fvcking cry,I don't do that.I am a man.its not allowed.
> I don't know if it was something that needed to get out of my system but I'm better.
> CSS is giving me hugs and that is my weakness,if she does that noatter how bad I am it melts me down after awhile.
> 
> Mrs.M,thank you for taking the time to PM me a couple times last night,I'm thanful for it.
> Gonna spent a little time withh CSS and make the most of tonight.
> Thank you all,I went nuts there for a couple days.
> I won't let you all down.
> I apologize for being an idiot.
> I'll get it straight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


calvin and css, i love the two of you as a couple  and it sounds like, by this morning, the worst of the storm has passed -- i hope that i'm right about that. 

calvin, what you're calling wearing your heart on your sleeve is also one of the beautiful things about you  

we can see and feel your heart in your posts and i know it's one of the things that css loves about you. the world is full of people who are too much the _other_ way -- too shut down, too distant from their feelings. i have been one of those and it wasn't good for me or my marriage. we don't need any more of them! at the same time, it's good to get a handle on your feelings to take some of the hills and dips out of the rollercoaster but you are already amazing 

and css, you are always, always, ALWAYS there to step up, to be loving, to be open and accountable, to take responsibility onto yourself. if every WS could be like you, there would be lots more successful Rs! 

css, *you* and the other WSs on this thread give me a reason to believe the R'ed couples who tell us that, when there's love and accountability, the hills and dips eventually even out. you have given me personally so much inspiration.

thanks to both of you for being here.


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## Robsia

BTW - calvin - it is ABSOLUTELY ok for a man to cry!!!


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## margrace

B1 said:


> CPA,
> I have to admit, The hpv would bother me a lot. I just don't know what to tell you. What would I do.... I would do what I know you are already doing, research it. I know your thinking about a poly too, I sure would be. Again, not sure how I would handle this. Choose to believe and trust and move on or question it all and go crazy.
> 
> I would at least see if she is up for a poly, see how she reacts to that.
> 
> I don't think a paternity test is too big a deal is it?
> 
> You could, if you wanted to pursue this, get some answers. If your gut is screaming something's not right then I am inclined to think something is not right. Not sure I buy getting hpv from a towel or something like that. Then again I have not looked into it at all, maybe it does transfer easily like that.
> 
> I know there isn't much help here, so sorry I couldn't give you more


:iagree:

it would bother me, too, cp, because, like B1, i would question the towel story. i believe that HPV is transmitted skin-to-skin only. 

this feels like such a punch in the stomach -- takes my breath away


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## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Morning everyone. Feeling a lot better today. I truly hope I didn't contribute to everyone's bad weekend. I am very careful about posting here when I am feeling so low as the last thing I want to do is to trigger anyone else, but I was being selfish and really needed support and you guys didn't let me down. Thankyou!
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


dg, just wanted to say that ALL your posts are helpful, even when you are feeling low. for me, they are not triggering so much as they are validating so thank you


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## Robsia

margrace said:


> :iagree:
> 
> it would bother me, too, cp, because, like B1, i would question the towel story. i believe that HPV is transmitted skin-to-skin only.





> How common is HPV?
> 
> HPV that affects the genitals is very common. As many as 20 million people are thought to have an active HPV infection at any given time, and as many as 5.5 million new cases of genital HPV infection occur in the United States each year. *Most men and women — about 80 percent of sexually active people — are infected with HPV at some point in their lives, but most people never know they have the virus.*
> 
> How do you get HPV?
> 
> Genital HPV is spread through direct skin-to-skin contact with someone who has an HPV infection. Contact includes vaginal, anal, and oral sex. Some types of HPV cause genital warts, which are hard, rough lumps that develop on the skin. Anyone who is sexually active can get HPV and genital warts.
> 
> In women, genital warts most often appear:
> 
> On the vulva (the outer female genital area)
> In or around the vagina
> In or around the anus
> On the groin (where the genital area meets the inner thigh)
> On the cervix
> 
> What are the symptoms of HPV?
> 
> In many cases, HPV produces no symptoms. When they do occur, the most common symptom is the presence of warts in the genital area. Signs of infection can appear weeks, months, *or even years* after infection with the virus.


http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/genital_warts/hic_understanding_hpv.aspx


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## jh52

Calvin and CSS -- saw you two had a bad weekend -- but have recovered. That is the key. Never ever give up -- you two do love each other -- it is so obvious for me to see --Calvin you were hurt deeply -- and there is no time line --- just don't ever give up. 

Also, though CSS may have said things that hurt you -- you have to remember the place she was in. No excuse for her -- just asking that you remember this and if you want to say something hurtful to CSS -- walk away before you say anything.

Two wrongs don't make a right my friend.

Have a great Monday --- and week.

Mrs JH and I had a pretty good weekend. Thanks for the prayers -- and remember -- I am praying and watching you both as well.

Take care -- be safe.


----------



## calvin

Thank all of you,I really don't know what me and CSS would do without all the support we get from here.
I know I have a lot of ups and downd and I lay it all out there for all to see,I guess its better than holding it in,its just so damn hard sometimes and Idont know what to do.
Except keep trying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

Robsia, like Calvin said, there are things our WS's forget when we first ask them, but later on something may pop into their heads and they'll tell us then. Or, they may never remember certain things. I know, it's hard for us to fathom how they can forget these things. 

But I'm starting to realize that their reality is SO unlike ours - sneaking around and "being in a fog" and compartmentalizing relationships in your brain does things to your memory that being honest and "living in daylight" and being faithful does not.

Also, my WS has been remorseful but also started in too quickly (in my opinion) to point out problem areas in our marriage. I was NOT ready to listen to any of that in the first couple of weeks because it sounded too much like blameshifting, and even in the first month I was very sensitive about that stuff. I felt it took the focus off the work HE needed to do. (It's coming up on 2 months from D-Day for me.) 

Not that there weren't problems, and not that I don't have to do some changing of old behaviors. (But because of his anxiety and mild depression, he now admits his view of our problems was exaggerated when his symptoms were at their worst.)

Also, I know someone with Asperger's - one of the NICEST people I know. I see the difficulty she has in reading "cues" that other people see readily. If you bring this up in MC, it might be helpful in case your WS goes into the "I shouldn't have to tell you" bit because in your situation he may in fact HAVE to tell you because you may truly not be able to perceive some things that are apparent to him.


----------



## Robsia

> If you bring this up in MC, it might be helpful in case your WS goes into the "I shouldn't have to tell you" bit because in your situation he may in fact HAVE to tell you because you may truly not be able to perceive some things that are apparent to him.


I can't remember how many times I have told him this. I think he thinks that I do really know, I'm just playing dumb for some insane reason.

Or he's totally denying that I have AS at all.

I'm really hoping that he will come round because this has been a big issue for us in the past, it is one of the things we have to fix.


----------



## CantSitStill

Good morning, yesterday it was really looking hopeless. I mean he was totally serious about divorce. After him hiding im the other room and talking privately to people from here he was ready to talk and ask questions and he slowly came out of his being done with me. It's weird, he remembers things I totally forgot about. I still cannot recall telling him men don't cry but I'm sure I did and I'm sure the reason was my guilt. I cannot explain why I was so cruel because it's not like me to be that way. I'm just glad I'm me again bevause it's like I wasn't myself at all back then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> Good morning, yesterday it was really looking hopeless. I mean he was totally serious about divorce. After him hiding im the other room and talking privately to people from here he was ready to talk and ask questions and he slowly came out of his being done with me. It's weird, he remembers things I totally forgot about. I still cannot recall telling him men don't cry but I'm sure I did and I'm sure the reason was my guilt. I cannot explain why I was so cruel because it's not like me to be that way. I'm just glad I'm me again bevause it's like I wasn't myself at all back then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Welcome to the "FOG" CSS.

I am glad you are out of it and have been for awhile. Sadly you are still seeing its after effects on Calvin.

Hug him.

Love him.


HM64


----------



## Robsia

One thing I'm still struggling with is why?

I mean, our marriage was in a bad patch at the time, I know that. I was in that same bad patch and I didn't even think of looking elsewhere. It wasn't like he just 'fell into it' with a co-worker or something. The old "we just couldn't help ourselves" excuse. 

Not that that's ok or anything, but he actually went out and looked for it. He set up a dating profile. He met women - plural! He booked a hotel for his and the OW's FIRST DATE so he could stay longer and drink alcohol.

He made more dates. He slept with her. 

It was all so deliberate.

And when she dumped him, instead of coming to his senses and figuring out he'd f***ed up hugely, he carried on. He met more women.

Why?

In the name of all that is holy, why not expend all that energy on fixing what was broken, instead of trying to replace it?

Or, if he was so convinced our marriage was over, why not just end it BEFORE starting to move on?


----------



## calvin

Robsia said:


> One thing I'm still struggling with is why?
> 
> I mean, our marriage was in a bad patch at the time, I know that. I was in that same bad patch and I didn't even think of looking elsewhere. It wasn't like he just 'fell into it' with a co-worker or something. The old "we just couldn't help ourselves" excuse.
> 
> Not that that's ok or anything, but he actually went out and looked for it. He set up a dating profile. He met women - plural! He booked a hotel for his and the OW's FIRST DATE so he could stay longer and drink alcohol.
> 
> He made more dates. He slept with her.
> 
> It was all so deliberate.
> 
> And when she dumped him, instead of coming to his senses and figuring out he'd f***ed up hugely, he carried on. He met more women.
> 
> Why?
> 
> In the name of all that is holy, why not expend all that energy on fixing what was broken, instead of trying to replace it?
> 
> Or, if he was so convinced our marriage was over, why not just end it BEFORE starting to move on?


I don't know Robsia,that's pretty bad,more people on here have way better advice than me but if he did it and then kept looking for more?
CSS has fvcked up once,didn't even have sex but it was pretty bad to me.
She gets this one chance and one only,if she ever takes another romantic interest in another man,she is gone.
Not me,she can leave,I won't.
I honestly don't know what to tell you here but he sounds like a serial cheater.
I'm sorry Robsia
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

He's never done it before, I'm absolutely convinced of that. But whether he'll do it again, if times get tough, I don't know. He says not, he might even mean it now, but that's no guarantee. Once that first step is taken, it's so much easier to take it again.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Robsia, I'm sorry you're going through so much pain and questioning. I have to admit, I don't know the answers that you are seeking. I'm a WW, but my affair was definitely of the slippery-slope type, not deliberately setting up a dating profile, etc. What does your husband say when you ask him this?

My husband asks me the same types of questions, especially since I resumed the affair after D-Day 1 and OM broke NC. I can honestly say that I never wanted to end my marriage with Matt, that I believed (and still do) that I loved him even while I was in an affair. For me, when the initial affair began, it was an EA that I didn't know was an EA. I'd never heard of such a thing. And when OM escalated it to a PA by kissing me, I was in too deep and too dependent on the "needs" he was filling for me to pull myself out. With hindsight, I can see a lot of places that I was sabotaging myself and my marriage pre-affair, shutting down communication, not sharing with my husband, and both of us were simply living independent lives. We were BOTH very lonely. Matt knew it and tried to talk to me about it, but I didn't recognize it in myself, so I didn't recognize my own vulnerability and quest to fill that void with work and other people.

As to why I resumed the affair and made my husband suffer through a false R for 4 months, all I can say is that is where I can really recognize the addiction element of an affair. I KNEW the pain that we had both been going through. I thought I was honestly making an attempt to rebuild my marriage. But even though I was keeping physical and communication NC, I was definitely NOT doing mental NC. I was harboring thoughts of OM and the confusion and pain that I felt for "caring" about both he and Matt. When he reappeared in my life, it was like tearing a wound open again and all that uncertainty and dependence on him I'd felt came pouring back. I held out a bit longer, but just started rationalizing myself back into small contact, just to "see if he was ok" etc. Total bullsh1t on my end. I just compartmentalized and sought out my fix. When I was with Matt, I focused on him, and when I was with OM I focused on him. And any time in between, I just mentally blocked the situation I had created and compartmentalized everything. I hate that I was capable of that, and I hate that so many people are hurt by my own selfishness, lack of self-awareness, lack of willpower, and simple bad decisions.

I know it doesn't help your questioning, but all I can say is that from my perspective, it is almost impossible to look at a wayward in an affair and attempt to apply logic to their choices and actions. I can't find any in mine. I'm not THAT stupid. Nor do I believe I am THAT cruel. But I behaved in both ways to beyond my wildest imaginings. I can sit back now and see some "contributing factors" in my choices and experiences pre-affair. They are not REASONS or EXCUSES. My affair is totally my own terrible, humiliating choice. But had I known myself then and had the external knowledge I have now, I'd like to believe I could have prevented that slope from ever beginning.

I hope your husband can find some of those answers within himself as he really starts to examine his choices. I hope even more he has the strength to honestly face them and share them with you. I know that acknowledging my weaknesses and flaws that enabled me to be the kind of person who has an affair has been the most difficult self-reflection I have ever done. I hate who I see in the mirror. I hate knowing that I am NOTHING like the person I believed myself to be all these years, and the values I truly thought I held. I do believe I wasn't always this person - I lived for many years in harmony with my ideals. I have hope for myself that I don't have to CONTINUE to be that awful person either. Every day I am aware of how I live and what I choose. No more compartmentalizing, no more avoiding, no more rationalizing. Just blunt honesty with myself and others.

I hope your journey leads you to peace. I am truly sorry that you are here with us, but you won't find a better thread for balanced views and support than this one, whether you choose D or R. I truly believe that.


----------



## calvin

Robsia said:


> He's never done it before, I'm absolutely convinced of that. But whether he'll do it again, if times get tough, I don't know. He says not, he might even mean it now, but that's no guarantee. Once that first step is taken, it's so much easier to take it again.


Maybe give him this one chance but never again.He needs to see how damaging infidelity can be.
He should read and work his butt off to regain your trust.
Might not be a bad idea to bring him here if you can but wait and see how he acts.
I wouldn't let him know about this site too soon before you get a lot of advice to arm yourself with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

From what we've talked about, i think he had 95% given up on our marriage. I think he was exploring other options, seeng what else was out there, wanting to feel loved again, like someone actually care for him, and liked him, something he wasn't getting from me at the time.

But at the same time, because he still had feelings for me, he didn't want to break it off completely.

Even through our troubles, we always had a very special relationship, a bond that neither of us has ever had with anyone else. We had so much in common, we think the same way. On our first date we knew there was a very special connection between us. It's hard to turn your back on.

But we were in a bad place. We argued so much, and we weren't very good at resolving conflicts.

So I think he was trying to find that bond again, with someone else.

He says all the other dates, apart from the OW, were nothing, boring, dull, vacuous women. The OW was the only one he actually liked. She says that he told her he loved her after 2 weeks, that he told her he would wait for her 'as long as it took'. I think he was so desperate for affection he scared her off. She says she felt it was too much too soon. She didn't know he was married. He told her we were separated.

And I did that to him. And it breaks my heart to think that he needed all that from me, and he had to try to find it from someone else.

if he had only talked to me, really talked, we could have fixed this. Instead he sought to try to replace it.

Now, he says it is all over. He promises it's all over, "Now that I know you do actually want me," were his words.


----------



## CantSitStill

I was mad at calvin and in my stupid head everything was his fault. I blamed him and was ready to walk away from my marriage. Is that an exit affair? I just know that when calvin changed and was trying everything to get me back to wanting to stay with him I was already involed in the EA. I even told the exOM that I needed to stop talking to him and work on my marriage..well the addiction to his texts was driving me nuts so I would text him a few days later and justify it by saying "there's nothing wrong with being friends" It took me finally admitting the truth to calvin and him kicking me out to wake me up. It took him rescuing me when I was literally losing it to convince me that hje really did love me. That was all wrong thinking. I don't klnow if any of this helps because. I never should have looked the exOM up in the first place. It's called selfishness. I'm really sorry because you seem like you are hurting as calvin is and you don't deserve it. The blameshifting was me really not seeing my own faults. I am now very aware of my wrongs pre-A and will everyday work on being a better wife and better person.. what I did is so shameful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

He wasn't blame-shifting. It's hard to tell from just words on a screen. He knows that what he did was very very wrong. He is not blaming me in any way for the A at all. It's just that we've had a few conversations about the state of our marriage at the time, and that's pretty much what I've come out with. He knows he chose to have an affair. he knows it was wrong, and he takes full responsibility for it. He is devastated by what it's done to me.

He had no idea how I would feel if I ever found out. In his head I would never find out, so therefore I wouldn't be hurt. Nice and neat, huh!

But, no, he is not blame-shifting. But I was not giving him the love he needed. It doesn't excuse him looking for it elsewhere, but that was the situation.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Calvin,

Sorry for the long re-post below, but felt it was so fitting with what you and CSS have been going through. Food for thought, perhaps? 

And next time you are having a bit of a freak out like this past weekend, pick up the phone man! We are all here for eachother.




NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> I struggle A LOT with focusing on the past, asking hurtful questions etc. It's so weird how things going really well for awhile can actually BE THE PROBLEM. Subconsciously, my shields start to go up when things are going well, we are getting closer, things are becoming more normal and we are genuinely happy. That's exactly when the b1tchy side of R shows up! It took me a long time to start to see the pattern and predict when a "life is good" trigger was about to go on.
> 
> A few months back, we had been doing really well in our R - we had several weeks with good intimacy, communication and just fun. Date nights, fun family nights out for dinner, get togethers with neighbors, great MC sessions etc. I mean things were rolling right along for us, and we felt connected and good about things.
> 
> Then, out of nowhere, we hit a really rough patch. I was in a bad place, and kept focusing on how terrified I was that my wife was so capable of the this level of deceit.
> 
> I kept asking her how she could possibly continue to betray me each of these steps and yet go back again for more? I would say things like "what kind of person can do that?". "What kind of a psychopath can live for YEARS with that level of deceit and not show signs of it?". I told her that it scared the hell out of me that she was capable of that.
> 
> In hindsight, I see that I was trying to hurt her. Trying to force both of us back into the pain. Trying to make sure "we wouldn't forget". I have always been scared of things just going back to normal, since that complacency lead to some of the issues we had in our marriage.
> 
> *But I realized that this latest set back was all my doing. Nothing had changed with us. No new deception. No new information about previous betrayals. THE ONLY THING THAT HAD CHANGED WAS MY DESIRE TO RELIVE THE PAIN AND FORCE IT ON HER*.
> 
> And then I asked myself what I was accomplishing with this? Did I really want to walk away from the R? Nope. Was it somehow helping me heal? Nope. Was it somehow helping her in her journey to be a better person? Nope. The only thing it was doing was inhibiting our happiness and our growth together. So I put it down and walked away.
> 
> And now when I start to feel that thought creep into my head, I ask myself some questions. Has something changed in the relationship or in our lives? Is this new information or a new realization? Is this something that will help us grow together or as individuals? If the answers are all no, I put it down and walk away.
> 
> This exercise has been really helpful for me, and I think really constructive for us. Rather than periodically trying to burn the whole thing down, we just keep adding on to what we already have.
> 
> It has made me wonder if part of the urge to burn it down is because we have felt closer and more connected during these times of crisis than we did before. I mean let's be honest, during these times of crisis, we are hyper-focused on each other and feel like its us vs. the world.
> 
> It also tests my wife's resolve and assures me she is committed to things. If she was already thinking bout leaving the R, then surely this would be the the moment she would do so.
> 
> And in my head it also acts as a defense mechanism for future betrayals as it keeps the pain and anguish right at the surface as a reminder for her. If I can be the constant reminder of her transgressions and the resulting pain and anguish we have both suffered, it will make the fantasy of an affair appear as exactly that - a fantasy.
> 
> But the truth is, no relationship can survive this constant cycle of good times immediately followed by eruptions of chaos and destruction. It's exhausting, for all parties. I finally realized that in my desire to preserve us and this closeness, I would ultimately destroy exactly that.
> 
> It gets easier, you just have to keep pushing yourself to round the corner. Push past being the victim and become the survivor. It is a constant effort, but requires less and less energy each month.


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> I've seen you post about the rough stuff that goes thru your head. You really mean that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, i really mean it!


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## CantSitStill

Great post NEVER and helps me understand calvin alot better because that sounds just like how it's been going. Thank you for posting that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> Editing to add: didt some research this morning CPA and aparently the HPV virus can lay dormant for many many years and only rear it's ugly head when the immune system is low or has gone through some changes. Still a bit concerning but aparently up to 80% of women can be carrying the virus at any one time and you wouldn't know it.


Thank you DG! Almost missed your edited version, you shouldn't happen to have a source or two you could PM me - I can't find enough local sources to satisfy my "curiosity". It would be so releaving to let all the speculations about the HVP-source and the last major trigger go. I have more than enough on my plate as it is. 

Thanks for taking the time - I appreciate it.


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## daisygirl 41

cpacan said:


> Thank you DG! Almost missed your edited version, you shouldn't happen to have a source or two you could PM me - I can't find enough local sources to satisfy my "curiosity". It would be so releaving to let all the speculations about the HVP-source and the last major trigger go. I have more than enough on my plate as it is.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time - I appreciate it.


Hi cpacan
I basically googled "how long can the hpv virus lay dormant" and it came up with a load of answers, up to 16 years or more have been quoted.

I will PM you some of the links in the morning as i am at work now and might not get the chance to do it tonight!


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## calvin

Thanks Never.....that's me,I don't know who wrote that and it doesn't matter,its true.
I can't argue with that post at all,its me.
I read it and re-read it a few times,nothing I can say against it.
I have your contact info along with a couple others but I feel I would be a bother to people who are dealing with their own heartaches.
Thanks man,I appreciate it.
I'm not sitting this out or giving up.
I'm still in the game.
I will win.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Great post NEVER and helps me understand calvin alot better because that sounds just like how it's been going. Thank you for posting that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed, its a game changer post if you ask me. It really hit home when I read it then and today it still has an impact. Thanks NH2M for reposting it.


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## daisygirl 41

cpacan ive pmd you.
Hope the links work!


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## calvin

Yeah,it was a great post.It opened up my eyes to a few things that are true that I forgot.
When you have someone,especially your spouse who caused this much pain....it just sucks.
When that same spouse cries and begs for forgiveness and does everything in their power to right the wrong they did,
I can't speak for all but if I don't give someone a chance who wronged me and is sincear in what they do to make it up...
K...nevermind,gotta go hide.gonna cry,men dong do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Fvck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

It should be in a sticky for people to read because that seriously taught me why he gets that way..I mean I'm understandable but I get confused
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> cpacan ive pmd you.
> Hope the links work!


They do, thanks


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## calvin

My Mom is leaving my Dad,he was abusive and he's getting worse.
My sister from Alabama is taking my Mom away tomorrow,they think if she is gone for a week or two he will understand what he is about to lose.
My Dad can't be alone but my Mom can't be treated like this either.
The stories I could tell when I was growing up,sucks.
My sister from Bama believes its a good idea for me to get out of town on my own,she thinks me and CSS need time away from eachother.
I agree.
Doesn't mean we are splitting up,far from it.I love the girl,just hate what she did.
I solve things,I do things,I fix things!
I don't know if I can fix all this but I will try.
I remember being in divorce court when I was seven,I remember my Dad knocking out my Moms teeth,I would jump on his back to protect my Mom.
I remember too much.

My Dad taught me how to treat women,I have always done the opposite of what he did.

Right now I feel like everyting is going to sh!t and quickly.
I have to come up with a plan to stop all this.
I will.
Sorry,I'm at a loss here,I'll figure it out....always do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Alot going on in your family Calvin.

Alot going on in your head Calvin.

Your head comes first.

Then your marriage comes next.

Then you can turn your attention on your family.

It is just a suggestion though.

When you go away I hope you read the book.

More and more that you tell us reminds how much you will have in common with the main charachter.

He won Calvin. And so will you. 

And that is all I am going to say about that story so I do not spoil it for you.


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Alot going on in your family Calvin.
> 
> Alot going on in your head Calvin.
> 
> Your head comes first.
> 
> Then your marriage comes next.
> 
> Then you can turn your attention on your family.
> 
> It is just a suggestion though.
> 
> When you go away I hope you read the book.
> 
> More and more that you tell us reminds how much you will have in common with the main charachter.
> 
> He won Calvin. And so will you.
> 
> And that is all I am going to say about that story so I do not spoil it for you.


I started the book,so far I am impressed and I know where its leading,kinda.
Thanks Hm.
You're a good friend,many here.
Next weekend We will get to meet a couple of them I hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

ok calvin told me he wants me to go so we are going
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

hoping to see EI and B1, trying to fit that in 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

No trade backs Calvin! She's going! 

If you left her home, you would be posting on the road 30 minutes into the drive how you miss her and wish she was there. 

I am not trying to make light of your struggle, I promise. But what is clear to me is that anytime life gets stressful, even if it is not affair-related, you get upset and second-guess everything (i.e., work, CSS not finding a job, seeing xOM out and about, your parents' issues). I think you get upset, sad, mad, you name it (and rightly so), but then you immediately fall back on CSS and her EA. You are 14 months past DDay. Not saying you have to be "over it." But your feelings are not all about the affair. You love her. You know that. She loves you. It's obvious. She doesn't want him, and hasn't in over a year. You don't want anyone but her. It's so obvious to us all. Let it be obvious to you too. 

Plus. You've seen EI's posts. If you plan on having any kind of conversation with B1, you better take CSS along to keep EI busy. Otherwise, you won't get a chance to say a word. :rofl:

EI, JUST KIDDING!!!! You KNOW I love you! And you know I type just as epic of posts as you do! Mwah!


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## Rookie4

Hello, Can'tsitstill, Im Sweetie, or at least my loverman calls me that. LOL I'm not going to start "posting?" on TAM but I really wanted to say something to you and to Calvin.
When I said those horrible,horrible,horrible things to Rookie, I meant NONE of them. I have cried about it for many months. At the time, I wanted to hurt him, to wake him up to how bad our marriage was getting, and that is what I told myself. But the real truth is that I was sooooooooooooooooo ashamed about what I was doing and being around Rookie only reinforced that shame and self -hate. I hated myself, I hated what my marriage had become, I hated my affair partner, I hated everything, and wanted to die. So when Rookie asked me about what I was doing, I lashed out at him, Heaven forgive me. 
What I want you to know Calvin, is that Can'tsitstill did not mean what she said any more than I did. We were two lost souls, who had taken a hateful path to nowhere. Can'tsitstill, I understand your torment. Like you, I will spend the rest of my life atoning for what I've done, and am so grateful that I have the chance to do so. 
Rookie has my life, my love , my desire, and my thoughts at his disposal. His happiness is mine, I belong to him. I am a better woman now than I have ever been and know exactly where I have found ecstasy... In my Rookie's arms.


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## Rookie4

Rookie4 said:


> Hello, Can'tsitstill, Im Sweetie, or at least my loverman calls me that. LOL I'm not going to start "posting?" on TAM but I really wanted to say something to you and to Calvin.
> When I said those horrible,horrible,horrible things to Rookie, I meant NONE of them. I have cried about it for many months. At the time, I wanted to hurt him, to wake him up to how bad our marriage was getting, and that is what I told myself. But the real truth is that I was sooooooooooooooooo ashamed about what I was doing and being around Rookie only reinforced that shame and self -hate. I hated myself, I hated what my marriage had become, I hated my affair partner, I hated everything, and wanted to die. So when Rookie asked me about what I was doing, I lashed out at him, Heaven forgive me.
> What I want you to know Calvin, is that Can'tsitstill did not mean what she said any more than I did. We were two lost souls, who had taken a hateful path to nowhere. Can'tsitstill, I understand your torment. Like you, I will spend the rest of my life atoning for what I've done, and am so grateful that I have the chance to do so.
> Rookie has my life, my love , my desire, and my thoughts at his disposal. His happiness is mine, I belong to him. I am a better woman now than I have ever been and know exactly where I have found ecstasy... In my Rookie's arms.


I love you, Babe. I always have and I always will. I am so proud of you and what you have accomplished that I wish I could post a picture of you on TAM, to show what a true FWS looks like.


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## Rookie4

Could somebody tell Sweetie what all of the abbreviations stand for? I know some of them but not all of them.


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## daisygirl 41

Rookie4 said:


> Could somebody tell Sweetie what all of the abbreviations stand for? I know some of them but not all of them.


There's a sticky somewhere with them all on Rookie. Not sure where though!
Lovely post sweetie. Very sincere and heartwarming!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

It's a year tomorrow since hubby moved back home.
It's gone pretty quick really. 
20 years of marriage in October.
We made it guys!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Morning,yes CM,CSS is going with me,I'd miss her too much and I think we both need this trip bad,plus the chance to get to meet the famous EI? Oh hell yeah!
I'm going to need CSS to keep EI busy so me and B1 can sneak off. 
Sweetie,thanks you for those words,it helps and gives me something to think about.
You have a good woman Rookie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> It's a year tomorrow since hubby moved back home.
> It's gone pretty quick really.
> 20 years of marriage in October.
> We made it guys!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

*love and congratulations to you and your hubby, dg!*

makes me think of the times that i've seen older couples interviewed on tv on the occasion of their 30th or 40th or 50th anniversaries. often, the interviewers will ask them something like, _how did you do it?_ and you will see the couple smile and look at each other knowingly. "it takes work," one of them will say. "you have to work at your relationship!"

we have learned what that means, haven't we  ? i, for one, thought that i understood it before, but i didn't. i wasn't working nearly hard enough pre-A, and both fWH and i have lots more work ahead now -- but thank goodness we are doing it! i'm so grateful for that!

i am celebrating with you right now, dg


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Morning,yes CM,CSS is going with me,I'd miss her too much and I think we both need this trip bad,plus the chance to get to meet the famous EI? Oh hell yeah!
> I'm going to need CSS to keep EI busy so me and B1 can sneak off.
> Sweetie,thanks you for those words,it helps and gives me something to think about.
> You have a good woman Rookie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Calvin, she certainly is. One of the best. But she also makes a good point, in her roundabout way. Words spoken in anger or in the "fog", are almost always not meant, or taken in context. Even in our daily lives, how many of us have said things we did not mean? We were angry, we were hurt, or we were confused, and the words came out. We instantly regreted saying them, but pride or fear or anger won't let us apologize for them and explain that they were NOT our true feelings. From the way she has owned her actions, I feel that CSS didn't mean any of the things she told you, but was unable or unwilling , at the time , to apologize . If anyone is worthy of forgiveness, CSS is.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Thanks, Calvin, she certainly is. One of the best. But she also makes a good point, in her roundabout way. Words spoken in anger or in the "fog", are almost always not meant, or taken in context. Even in our daily lives, how many of us have said things we did not mean? We were angry, we were hurt, or we were confused, and the words came out. We instantly regreted saying them, but pride or fear or anger won't let us apologize for them and explain that they were NOT our true feelings. From the way she has owned her actions, I feel that CSS didn't mean any of the things she told you, but was unable or unwilling , at the time , to apologize . If anyone is worthy of forgiveness, CSS is.


CSS is very worthy,yes she said some hurtful things to me,I know she didn't mean it but it is hard to get over.
I got so much crap going on in my life right now that I need her more than ever,couple more days and we both can get the hell out of Dodge.
Can't get here soon enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

daisygirl 41 said:


> There's a sticky somewhere with them all on Rookie. Not sure where though!
> Lovely post sweetie. Very sincere and heartwarming!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, DG, I will look for it.
DG, I must confess for Sweetie , that she is a "lurker". She reads my posts and the responses to them, but is too shy to get her own username and post herself. She has been reading about CSS and Calvin and is very concerned about them, or she probably would never have posted. BTW, HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!!!


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> CSS is very worthy,yes she said some hurtful things to me,I know she didn't mean it but it is hard to get over.
> I got so much crap going on in my life right now that I need her more than ever,couple more days and we both can get the hell out of Dodge.
> Can't get here soon enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Getting away from it all, can be the best thing in the world. Sweetie and I have had a couple of weekends at various B&B's, and it's really nice when it's just her and I.


----------



## Robsia

Well, WH and I just had our first MC appointment. It went well, I think, although it was more of an initial consultation than a counselling appointment.

Because WH admitted to being verbally aggressive during our marriage, which is one of the reasons we were having trouble to begin with, they class that as abusive, so they are recommending us to have a couple of sessions of IC first, to talk to us one to one. I think to make sure that I'm not being coerced, or hiding things I'd be too scared to say in front of him.

He does admit that this was a major problem in our marriage, one he is going to have to work hard to deal with. He has been waiting for a referral to the NHS mental health team to get some help for this since last summer - he wants to control his aggressive side, it's just difficult on your own.

Relate says they have their own 'anger management' counselling also that he can access if he wants to, although they call it "equal partnering" or some such thing.

The important thing is that he admits he has a problem and he willing to do everything he can to address it to save our marriage. It was quite humbling hearing some of the things he said in counselling today. He admitted to his own failures, saying things I have never heard him admit to me before.

And being told essentially that he was abusive was hard for him to hear. We talked a lot afterwards and I asked him how that made him feel. He said it was hard. He said when he was younger, getting angry and yelling was just something you did, it wasn't considered abuse. Abuse in his mind is physical.

So I guess we can blame his upbringing for that one. I just hope he can find it in himself to be the man I know he wants to be.

The good thing is that, because the counsellor thinks we will need a lot of sessions, and because there was an abusive element admitted, then we can access the counselling at a vastly reduced rate, which will make things a lot easier.

The first step up Everest has been taken - yay us!


----------



## margrace

Robsia said:


> Well, WH and I just had our first MC appointment. It went well, I think, although it was more of an initial consultation than a counselling appointment.
> 
> Because WH admitted to being verbally aggressive during our marriage, which is one of the reasons we were having trouble to begin with, they class that as abusive, so they are recommending us to have a couple of sessions of IC first, to talk to us one to one. I think to make sure that I'm not being coerced, or hiding things I'd be too scared to say in front of him.
> 
> He does admit that this was a major problem in our marriage, one he is going to have to work hard to deal with. He has been waiting for a referral to the NHS mental health team to get some help for this since last summer - he wants to control his aggressive side, it's just difficult on your own.
> 
> Relate says they have their own 'anger management' counselling also that he can access if he wants to, although they call it "equal partnering" or some such thing.
> 
> The important thing is that he admits he has a problem and he willing to do everything he can to address it to save our marriage. It was quite humbling hearing some of the things he said in counselling today. He admitted to his own failures, saying things I have never heard him admit to me before.
> 
> And being told essentially that he was abusive was hard for him to hear. We talked a lot afterwards and I asked him how that made him feel. He said it was hard. He said when he was younger, getting angry and yelling was just something you did, it wasn't considered abuse. Abuse in his mind is physical.
> 
> So I guess we can blame his upbringing for that one. I just hope he can find it in himself to be the man I know he wants to be.
> 
> The good thing is that, because the counsellor thinks we will need a lot of sessions, and because there was an abusive element admitted, then we can access the counselling at a vastly reduced rate, which will make things a lot easier.
> 
> The first step up Everest has been taken - yay us!


i second that -- yay, you!

for us, MC has made all the difference. i'm pretty sure that we would not be together now without it. it sounds like a really promising start for you two as well!


----------



## ChangingMe

daisygirl 41 said:


> It's a year tomorrow since hubby moved back home.
> It's gone pretty quick really.
> 20 years of marriage in October.
> We made it guys!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Congratulations, DG. That's quite an accomplishment. :smthumbup:


----------



## Acabado

Acronyms here. The whole thread can be triggery.
Welcome TAM CWI newbies- please read this 

Don't be shy Sweetie. Join TAM. At your pace.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thanks all for your support.
Where that dancing turtle when you need him.
Feel like joining him for a little jig!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Thank you Sweetie for that post  Daisy congrats on your 1 yr of R and 20yrs of marriage, We've been married for 21 yrs 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> Thank you Sweetie for that post  Daisy congrats on your 1 yr of R and 20yrs of marriage, We've been married for 21 yrs
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't believe where the time goes.
Hubby was only 21 when we got married ( my toyboy by 2 years). He looks like a baby in our wedding picks!
You know, I love him just as much now as the day I married him, despite everything we have been through.
Congrats to you too CSS. You're doing great! You're post are always so honest and your love for Calvin is obvious to all of us here.
Here's to another 20 years!
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CSS loves me??
Alright!!!  


I know she does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Congratulations on your anniversary daisygirl 41, sounds like you have it going on. I noticed that many couples here have been married several years, I was wondering why that is? I was also wondering if you would still be working toward R if your WS sort of dragged their feet, letting responsibilities of life come first? Any comments?


----------



## daisygirl 41

jupiter13 said:


> Congratulations on your anniversary daisygirl 41, sounds like you have it going on. I noticed that many couples here have been married several years, I was wondering why that is? I was also wondering if you would still be working toward R if your WS sort of dragged their feet, letting responsibilities of life come first? Any comments?


Hi Jupiter, for me and my H our R and our marriage is top of the list of our priorities for now and the future. Everything else comes second. No dragging of feet or putting anything else first.
We both have a renewed excitement and enthusiasm for out future together, something that we had both lost for a while.
We had been married 17 years when he had his A, but we had both neglected our marriage for a while. Pressure of work, kids, finances got in the way a d we were just going through the motions. The love was always there, but I know for a fact that I took hubby for granted and, on occasions pushed the boundaries by putting myself and my needs before my Hs needs. Of course that's no excuse for his A but we both now know what we have to do to make sure our marriage is healthy and happy from now on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Very well put Daisy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Hey TAM Family,

Reaching out for a little advice/support. My wife has approached me and asked about attending an international conference in Germany in a couple of weeks. As you know, we are a year and a half past D-Day and doing quite well in our R. 

She accepted a new position at work that will require a bit of travel (a handful of overnights per year). When she was given the job opportunity she came home and we talked about it before we decided it was an opportunity worth pursuing. She was very clear that our marriage came first, and she wasn't willing to even consider it if I felt it would ultimately be a bad thing for us. I really appreciated her openness on this front. It is a very cool job opportunity, and I felt like we are ready to push ourselves a bit.

But now that the first trip is approaching, I am getting a little anxious. She has been really clear, again, that she will bail on the trip if it is causing a problem for me. But I want to be able to work through this with her. I think it's an important step for me, and for us.

She has spent the last 18 months working her a$$ off to rebuild trust, intimacy and our marriage after her affair. I am confident in her NC status with OM (full visibility to all email, phones etc., as well as a few tools I use to spot check). I want this to be a good thing for us. I want this to be a chance for growth. But I also want to avoid 3 solid days of triggering and anxiety.

She is verifying with IT that her phone/text will function while there. So I should have contact with her, but timezones will make it harder. And I will have my hands full watching our two young kiddos. 

For those not as familiar with our story, her affair started while at an international conference and out drinking with a group. So needless to say, this is a bit tough.

We talked last night and I said I wanted to try and make this work. But I also stated that I wanted her to spend some time thinking through what is different about her on this trip vs. the previous. She talked about better awareness and understanding of boundaries, clarity on priorities in her life (i.e. our marriage and our family being the two most important things in the world) as well as a much healthier and stronger current relationship between us. All good answers. 

And I told her that I wanted to be perfetly clear on my boundaries and my situation. I reminded her that if there is ever another transgression, I will be gone. There will be no confrontation, no chance to explain or talk. I will simply change the locks, put her things outside, call her parents to collect her and file the necessary paperwork. I hated saying these things, but I needed to know they were clearly communicated and understood by her. 

Anyway, I know I am rambling. But thought you guys might have some thoughts/advice on how I can best go into this with my eyes wide open. Anything else we should talk about ahead of time? Any other ideas to help me cope? 

I want to emphasize, this is ultimately something I want to do as well. I am not getting pushed into this. I want us to be strong enough for this. I want to know that I am far enough down the rebuilding and healing path to do this. So my motivation is grounded in a good place. 

Thanks guys!


----------



## hopefulgirl

How about no alcohol? Lots of people go without these days. A promise to drink none at all might help because you know that component, which was a significant factor in that last international conference, will be absent this time. It clouds judgment, lowers inhibitions - might be a good thing for you to know she's staying away from it altogether while on this trip.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

HopefulGirl,

Thanks for the response! Totally agree, and I forgot to mention that we had that discussion as well. She brought it up and said she was not going to have a single drink while gone, and even suggested that she skip out on any dinners/social events around the conference. Said she could easily just play the jet lag card and head back to her room early.

I told her I was on board with that approach, but was also open to her doing a client dinner type thing, as long as it was exactly that. 

We ultimately agreed with the no alcohol and no late night social events etc. I don't think she needs to run back to her room and lock the door the second the conferenc floor closes. But also expect her to refrain from alcohol and call it a relatively early night.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Sounds good. Because I'm a BS too and a little paranoid, I think boundaries need to be spelled out: "the trip" would include travel, as in time on the plane, right? Not just once she gets over there. I think her being sober the WHOLE time would give you more peace of mind.


----------



## B1

Nh2m....
Wow what a trigger but.....
It sounds to me like you are both ready for this. Boundaries are set and known, she has proven she can be trusted. You two have worked on your marriage and, i assume, regained what was lost. At some point you do have to let go and trust. 

I like hopeful girls suggestion of no alcohol.
Maybe even no running around after hours, especially if other men are involved.


----------



## B1

daisygirl 41 said:


> It's a year tomorrow since hubby moved back home.
> It's gone pretty quick really.
> 20 years of marriage in October.
> We made it guys!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Congrats dg, very happy for you!


----------



## bfree

Nh2m,

Do you think periodic check ins would help? She could take pictures of her hotel room with a time stamp as well. Not so much to prove she is staying faithful but to help you avoid the triggering.


----------



## Furious George

bfree said:


> Nh2m,
> 
> Do you think periodic check ins would help? She could take pictures of her hotel room with a time stamp as well. Not so much to prove she is staying faithful but to help you avoid the triggering.


Good God, who wants to live this way?


----------



## EI

Furious George said:


> Good God, who wants to live this way?


People who understand that life isn't perfect and that people aren't perfect. People who have the capacity to comprehend that we do not have to be defined by our worst choices. We can make different choices, better choices and rise above our past. People who acknowledge that in spite of their spouse's flaws, failures, and transgressions, they still love them and they know that they would rather spend the rest of their lives with them than without them. 

I think that is why some people choose to live this way. No one can be forced to. But no one else has a right to condemn those who do. Now, with all due respect, this is a thread about reconciliation, not condemnation, so if you have nothing positive to add then I would appreciate it very much if you would refrain from posting here as it constitutes a thread jack.


P.S. I'm Back!


----------



## Furious George

EI said:


> People who understand that life isn't perfect and that people aren't perfect. People who have the capacity to comprehend that we do not have to be defined by our worst choices. We can make different choices, better choices and rise above our past. People who acknowledge that in spite of their spouse's flaws, failures, and transgressions, they still love them and they know that they would rather spend the rest of their lives with them than without them.
> 
> I think that is why some people choose to live this way. No one can be forced to. But no one else has a right to condemn those who do. Now, with all due respect, this is a thread about reconciliation, not condemnation, so if you have nothing positive to add then I would appreciate it very much if you would refrain from posting here as it constitutes a thread jack.
> 
> 
> P.S. I'm Back!


Expressing an opinion is not a thread-jack. No one is being condemned. Do you really agree that taking time-stamped photos is productive in an R? Really? It's a valid question, sorry if it makes you feel uncomfortable.


----------



## ChangingMe

Furious George said:


> Expressing an opinion is not a thread-jack. No one is being condemned. Do you really agree that taking time-stamped photos is productive in an R? Really? It's a valid question, sorry if it makes you feel uncomfortable.


I think that if it helps ease a BS's mind, who is a year and a half into a successful R, then yes it is productive. I can't say for sure though, since I am not that BS. Just as you can't say it's not, since neither are you.


----------



## Furious George

ChangingMe said:


> I think that if it helps ease a BS's mind, who is a year and a half into a successful R, then yes it is productive. I can't say for sure though, since I am not that BS. Just as you can't say it's not, since neither are you.


If you have to provide photographic evidence that deep in , then you are not in a successful R... First few months, yeah, I get that...


----------



## ChangingMe

Furious George said:


> If you have to provide photographic evidence that deep in , then you are not in a successful R... First few months, yeah, I get that...


I disagree. I don't think any of us have the right to judge another couple about whether their R is successful enough. All we know about anyone is what they post on this forum. There is so much more to life than TAM. If the poster says their R is successful then, to some extent, we have to take them at their word. NHTMR views his as successful, he reports that he is for the most part at peace, in love, happy, and secure, then who are we to judge? His wife is about to take a trip that hasn't happened since prior to the A, it is a situation that was detrimental in the past, and therefore it is causing a trigger. He posted here stating that she has said she would for-go the trip, but he has told her not to. He has only asked for suggestions for making it easier for him. Someone suggested the photos. It is not the BS demanding them, just a suggestion someone else made. 

I am only 9 months into a possible R -meaning my BH and I are still living together, raising children together, but he is not committed to staying with me. Out of respect and in hopes that it might help in some way, I send pics when I am at a work function or something that is at a time that I am normally home. I avoid these things if at all possible, but if I have no choice, then I try to send a pic to show that I'm where I say I am. He doesn't ask me to. I don't know if they help him at all. But to me it is just a way to show my commitment and accountability. I know he triggers, I know he doesn't trust me, so it's one thing I can think of to do.


----------



## Furious George

ChangingMe said:


> I disagree. I don't think any of us have the right to judge another couple about whether their R is successful enough. All we know about anyone is what they post on this forum. There is so much more to life than TAM. If the poster says their R is successful then, to some extent, we have to take them at their word. NHTMR views his as successful, he reports that he is for the most part at peace, in love, happy, and secure, then who are we to judge? His wife is about to take a trip that hasn't happened since prior to the A, it is a situation that was detrimental in the past, and therefore it is causing a trigger. He posted here stating that she has said she would for-go the trip, but he has told her not to. He has only asked for suggestions for making it easier for him. Someone suggested the photos. It is not the BS demanding them, just a suggestion someone else made.
> 
> I am only 9 months into a possible R -meaning my BH and I are still living together, raising children together, but he is not committed to staying with me. Out of respect and in hopes that it might help in some way, I send pics when I am at a work function or something that is at a time that I am normally home. I avoid these things if at all possible, but if I have no choice, then I try to send a pic to show that I'm where I say I am. He doesn't ask me to. I don't know if they help him at all. But to me it is just a way to show my commitment and accountability. I know he triggers, I know he doesn't trust me, so it's one thing I can think of to do.


I don't disagree, but the truth is everyone judges on these forums to some extent. It's just sometimes disguised as an opinion. I wasn't commenting on the staus of NHTMR's R. I just though the suggestion of obtaining time-stamped photos was a bit counter-productive. Didn't say it was stupid, wrong, etc.. Just an opinion.


----------



## EI

Furious George said:


> I don't disagree, but the truth is everyone judges on these forums to some extent. It's just sometimes disguised as an opinion. I wasn't commenting on the staus of NHTMR's R. I just though the suggestion of obtaining time-stamped photos was a bit counter-productive. Didn't say it was stupid, wrong, etc.. Just an opinion.


I can share with you that it is something that I began doing for my husband when I am out doing something that is not a typical part of my routine, like dinner with a girlfriend or even a trip to the beauty salon, because hair color truly does take several hours. Or, even when I am running simple errands that are taking longer than usual. He never asked me to, but he did tell me that it gave him some peace of mind when the photos started coming in. As a former WS, I want to go out of my way to do things for him... before he asks or even thinks of asking. I think it helps helps him. 

A successful reconciliation is one of the hardest things you should never have to do...... Infidelity should never happen, but when it has, sometimes you have to think outside of the box. We try, very hard, on this thread to encourage one another and offer support for BS's and WS's, alike, who are trying to recover from infidelity.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Mrs. Rookie
> *I am a better woman now than I have ever been* and know exactly where I have found ecstasy... In my Rookie's arms.


That is so refreshing to read. One horrible mistake can make you degrade yourself for years and be an excuse to not get better or it can be the jolt that makes you better than you have ever been.

Mrs. Rookie is a winner!

I have read what Rookie has said about you and your actions fro the last two years proves that you are the real deal!
Congrats Mrs. Rookie!


----------



## daisygirl 41

Furious George said:


> Expressing an opinion is not a thread-jack. No one is being condemned. Do you really agree that taking time-stamped photos is productive in an R? Really? It's a valid question, sorry if it makes you feel uncomfortable.


Yes it is valid. My H will do anything if it makes me feel less anxious and helps to restore my trust in him. He visits his elderly dad 400 miles away once every 6 weeks and he sends me a pin point location on his iPhone and rings me from his dads house phone and not his mobile so I know he is really there. He also has 'find my phone' on his iPhone so I can check where he is at any time IF I SO WISH. All these things HE has offered ME! This is an important part of rebuilding trust and moving forward. And just for the record, I hardly ever check up on him anymore because all of the things he has offered me have really helped the trust to grow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

^My WH suggested the Find Friends iPhone app, so I can see where he is. The only downside is, it only shows where his phone is. Theoretically he could be elsewhere. But then if I rang him and he didn't answer, he'd better have a damn good reason as to why not.

However, about two days after I'd installed it, he was on a job in Liverpool (he is a project managers and organises and oversees installations of checkouts, etc in superstores in the whole of the north of the country so he's on the road a lot).

After this particular job I saw the little pink dot that was him travel down the motorway and stop at a service station in Warrington, which was her home town.

I don't need to tell you how it made me feel to see his name on the screen and the word Warrington come up. It was in Warrington that all their trysts had taken place. Not only that, when I looked on the map, the service station was about three miles from her house.

I texted him saying, "You could have picked somewhere other than Warrington to stop for a coffee!" He apologised and said he was with his boss and that this was the best-located service station as after that they both went in opposite directions.

I accepted that and then got increasingly more frantic when he stayed at this damned service station for 90 minutes!! I was a mess. I fired texts at him, why was he taking so long? What was he doing? He answered every one. When he finally left I immediately texted the OW asking her had she just been at a service station with him?

It was horrible. He phoned me and reassured me all the way home that he really hadn't been meeting her, he'd been with his boss and some of the other guys, they had had a lot to talk about, work-related. A photo of him with his workmates would have helped, but I realise that would be an odd thing for him to do.

I was only really reassured when she texted me later saying she'd been at work, it really had been over since before Christmas, and she wanted nothing to do with him!

If the affair had been ongoing when I found out, I think I would be less inclined to believe her. But as she had told me of her own volition on D-day that she had broken it off with him months ago, and she wanted nothing to do with him at all, especially now she knows we were still together at the time, I do believe her. She has no reason to lie to me, whereas he has.

But it was a horrible, awful feeling.

I have now told him to pre-warn me if he ever has to go to Warrington again, so I can prepare myself.


----------



## Furious George

Robsia said:


> ^My WH suggested the Find Friends iPhone app, so I can see where he is. The only downside is, it only shows where his phone is. Theoretically he could be elsewhere. But then if I rang him and he didn't answer, he'd better have a damn good reason as to why not.
> 
> However, about two days after I'd installed it, he was on a job in Liverpool (he is a project managers and organises and oversees installations of checkouts, etc in superstores in the whole of the north of the country so he's on the road a lot).
> 
> After this particular job I saw the little pink dot that was him travel down the motorway and stop at a service station in Warrington, which was her home town.
> 
> I don't need to tell you how it made me feel to see his name on the screen and the word Warrington come up. It was in Warrington that all their trysts had taken place. Not only that, when I looked on the map, the service station was about three miles from her house.
> 
> I texted him saying, "You could have picked somewhere other than Warrington to stop for a coffee!" He apologised and said he was with his boss and that this was the best-located service station as after that they both went in opposite directions.
> 
> I accepted that and then got increasingly more frantic when he stayed at this damned service station for 90 minutes!! I was a mess. I fired texts at him, why was he taking so long? What was he doing? He answered every one. When he finally left I immediately texted the OW asking her had she just been at a service station with him?
> 
> It was horrible. He phoned me and reassured me all the way home that he really hadn't been meeting her, he'd been with his boss and some of the other guys, they had had a lot to talk about, work-related. A photo of him with his workmates would have helped, but I realise that would be an odd thing for him to do.
> 
> I was only really reassured when she texted me later saying she'd been at work, it really had been over since before Christmas, and she wanted nothing to do with him!
> 
> If the affair had been ongoing when I found out, I think I would be less inclined to believe her. But as she had told me of her own volition on D-day that she had broken it off with him months ago, and she wanted nothing to do with him at all, especially now she knows we were still together at the time, I do believe her. She has no reason to lie to me, whereas he has.
> 
> But it was a horrible, awful feeling.
> 
> I have now told him to pre-warn me if he ever has to go to Warrington again, so I can prepare myself.


Robsia, thaks for sharing. That is what I was getting at, I though it might be more of a trigger than a comfort. For me, anyway. As long as it works for the individual.


----------



## Robsia

We are very early on though - three weeks today since D-day, and when that incident happened it was only two weeks after so still early days.

I do check on him whenever he goes out of town though. I work from home so I have my iPad open next to my computer and I watch where he is. I'm always relieved to see him on his way home.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I don't have a thin skin for myself. This thread is all about support for those in R or trying to R. Both BS and fWS alike. Your original post was not written in a supportive way. Posters...especially fWS, are constantly having to fend off critics and bashers. This is the one thread where they can go and not have to feel the need to defend or justify themselves. You should really take more care in learning your surroundings if you want to be taken seriously here on TAM.
> 
> Now, do you have any constructive ideas to add to the discussion or are you content to play the role of contrarian?


Well said bfree,as a BS myself its my choice to R and I don't take kindly to someone jumping on my wife either.
That's my job. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

I could use some positive thoughts today. Thanks all.


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## calvin

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I could use some positive thoughts today. Thanks all.


Coming your way Mr.M.
Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Thinking of you, MrsM. Hoping the day improves.


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## bfree

Mrs M, you are already on several prayer lists but I'll make sure to say a couple of extra ones today.


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## daisygirl 41

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I could use some positive thoughts today. Thanks all.


Hang on in there and take it a step at a time
Positive vibes coming your way
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Hugs to you Mrs. M.


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## EI

Prayers are coming your way Mrs.M. I sent you a pm. (((Hugs)))
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

So sorry Mrs. M hang in there, praying for you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I could use some positive thoughts today. Thanks all.


Mojo and positive thoughts sent.
What's going on Mrs?
I know you fear posting what can be seen as a stupid pity party, you don't believe you deserve empathy, that your pain cannot be displayed as it's self inflicted. Your situation is not less painful thou, you are not wrong for feeling this way, those are your feelings. 
I know Mr is angry and you feel him pulling away, your reputation have suffered, you had to leave finnaly school theater, you face now an unexpected pregnancy (i'm aware last was not a bed of roses) and life is full of uncertaincy. And you don't cope well with what it looks like limbo/no clear solutions at hand.
Can you share with Mr? Is he engaging? Have you any real life friend you can lean on?
Share with us. I'm sure fellow "waywards" (I hate reduce people to labels) would be glad to help you. 

Hang tough!


----------



## Robsia

I have a couple of issues I wondered if anyone else had experienced.

Is there something like The Fog in early R? When I am with my WH, and he is saying all the right things, and doing all the right things, and being generally wonderful and sweet and attentive, I feel wonderful, which is good.

But it's like I temporarily forget what's happened, and just bask in the glow of him being nice to me.

Then when we're apart and I come on here and read stuff, I remember all over again, and think, "OMG, he did do that, what a b*****d!"

Is this normal?

The other thing, is that I'm picking up a slight hint of resentment from him about the whole concept of him doing the heavy lifting.

I have explained it that whilst, yes, there were issues in the M, and that we have an equal responsibility to fix those, he still has to prove to me that he is worth me reconsidering.

I feel he is subconsciously slipping into the mindset of "Yay, she's forgiven me, everything's wonderful, let's get back to normal." But it's not.

I feel when I say things like "You have to work to get me back," I'm bigging myself up. If I'd said anything like that before he'd have told me where to go. Now he says nothing, but I feel he's thinking it. But then he knows that he's done wrong, very wrong, so he's torn between what his response would have been before, and what it needs to be now.

I think the problem is that he actually has absolutely no clue how I'm feeling.

He said the the other day that he felt I was keeping him dangling on a string while I decided whether to R or D. He didn't say it in a nasty way - we were simply talking about how we felt, and that was one of the things he felt.

I had a think about that and we spoke later. I told him that I appreciate how he feels, but whether to R or D is a big decision on my part and I simply can't take it lightly. I said that basically his behaviour will decide where we go from here, it's ultimately him who has the power to decide, by his own behaviour. If he continues to do the right things, goes to counselling, works hard to make our M work, does what the book says, then there is no reason why I would decide not to R.

I also said that, even if we decided definitely to go for R, that decision could change at any time. In a new relationship, people change their minds, break it off, even after engagement.

I even said that he has the power to break it off if at any time he decided that it wasn't what he wanted any more, which is true, he has the power to break it off, but only I have the power to allow it to carry on.

It's very early days, but this tiny hint of resentment I'm picking up from him is bugging me. I'm hoping MC will help him to see that he just has to be patient and that he DOES have to do the heavy lifting.


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## CantSitStill

Robsia, yes that's exactly what all BS' go thru and WS' also feel like..."what should I do" We feel so worried when the BS is triggering and just feel so paralyzed. Also reading other peoples stories will make you go OHH MY! yes calvin goes thru it and we are a year in R. Hang in there, take a break from TAM, this place can make ya feel crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Mrs. M yes I understand you are scared. It's an awful feeling. I also understand you are thinking "omg what did I do?" It's very hard..pray, stay strong, hold yourself together. It should get better in time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrQuatto

Robsia, it is quite normal. I am 4 years into R and I felt the same for The 1st year an a half. It gets better but only because my wife did much of the lifting. 

The most important thing I can stress at the the 6 month point and beyond is simply communication. Me telling my wife when things were bothering me and what it was, no matter how selfish it may seem to me, and her telling me when it felt I was being over reactive.

It wasn't the situation that made or broke the R at that point, it was the communication. Simple, free and honest communication. Its not easy but it is a must! 

Infidelity hurts both parties and the only way to truly R is to deal with that pain as it manifests. The positive outcome is greater understanding and communication.

Now, after 4 years, there are still days, but they are very few and far between.

Q~


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia, I am TOTALLY where you are at.

It's like we WANT to forget what they did, and go back in time like it was before the nuclear event. We can almost be lulled into a dream state where we forget the monster man they had turned into for awhile. I mean, who WAS that man? Not the wonderful guy *I* married!! I married an HONEST man who believed in INTEGRITY and TELLING the TRUTH!! Who is this POD PERSON that was here for awhile???

It's like your head can't get around that this is the same person. We are still trying to integrate all that. It's too bizarre. We WANT to turn back the clock and let things be like it never happened. It's so fresh for us (coming up on 2 months from D-Day for me). Our brains are still adjusting.

And my WS hasn't been in total remorsefulness mode 24/7 either. When he has been remorseful, it feels great. But he somethimes has that look of dread when I start conversations about the affair. He's even said "oh no" a couple of times when I handed him something to read, as if to say, here we go again. 

He has mental health issues - anxiety plus the mild depression that often accompanies it - so I've even been "protecting" him somewhat, and backed off when he's been particularly wound up (diarrhea, severe headache, etc.). I'd been hoping he could take care of ME but I've ended up treading softly on days when he's been a wreck. (This was especially true the first couple weeks - I took it as a possible sign of internal turmoil, hopefully, guilt and shame.) 

Today he started to talk about getting back into an activity of interest to both of us, like we did when we first met; this is big, because his hobbies have been such a focus for him in recent years (a ton of money and hours have been poured into them - frankly, the hobbies have gotten more of both spent on them than the OW ever did, and I'm jealous of them!). This is a step in the right direction. He also does the cell phone photos for me when he goes somewhere - without my ever asking him to. He's doing a lot more chores around the house as well. So some things are going well.

But as for talking about the affair... he will do it but I know he'd prefer to put the whole thing behind him. He's ashamed and it's uncomfortable to even talk about it, while I need to KEEP talking about it. They truly DON'T understand how we feel. I think they may be reluctant to try to really empathize, to "walk a mile in our shoes" because it will only increase their feelings of shame.


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## Robsia

Thanks for your replies - glad it's not just me, although I think I'll have to monitor the resentment.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Acabado said:


> Mojo and positive thoughts sent.
> What's going on Mrs?
> I know you fear posting what can be seen as a stupid pity party, you don't believe you deserve empathy, that your pain cannot be displayed as it's self inflicted. Your situation is not less painful thou, you are not wrong for feeling this way, those are your feelings.
> I know Mr is angry and you feel him pulling away, your reputation have suffered, you had to leave finnaly school theater, you face now an unexpected pregnancy (i'm aware last was not a bed of roses) and life is full of uncertaincy. And you don't cope well with what it looks like limbo/no clear solutions at hand.
> Can you share with Mr? Is he engaging? Have you any real life friend you can lean on?
> Share with us. I'm sure fellow "waywards" (I hate reduce people to labels) would be glad to help you.
> 
> Hang tough!


Last night was just really rough for us. We got through the extreme anger at the beginning of the month and I felt like we had a really good 10-12 days or so, went out on a date, just spent time together at home, snuggling, talking, playing video games. We spent a couple of days apart over spring break and texted a lot, Matt said he was thinking of me, was looking forward to seeing me and our son, even brought me a beautiful pair of earrings from a museum he'd visited.

But then it started to swing down again. He said he planned to be divorced within 3 years, that he would stay long enough to help me with the infant phase after the baby is born and divorce me when the child is old enough to split time between us. Of course, I'm grateful for ANY time that he chooses to spend with me, and I want to hope that a lot can happen in three years. After that conversation on Friday, things were ok for Saturday and most of Sunday until I put my foot in my mouth Sunday night. 

I'd been having a rough weekend personally, and to be honest, it's been really building for a while now. I just can barely stomach myself and the things I did. I cry in my office, driving in the car alone, every time Matt or our son does something kind or loving - I'm just a basket case. I'm not holding myself together very well at all, and instead of getting better with counseling and work on self-forgiveness, it's much, much worse. I just don't see how that can ever be possible for someone like me. So Saturday night, Matt and I watched Grave of the Fireflies, which is like one of the most beautiful Miyuzaki films but also the most depressing film of all time, and I just had a melt down. Bawled in our bed for what seemed like hours, just blubbering to Matt about how sorry I am, how much I hate what I've done to our lives, everything. He was so kind and loving, just rubbed my back and talked with me. He even said things like it's better to have a real relationship than fantasy, and we can work on making new things special for us as we go forward. But then Sunday I spoiled all that. When we went to bed, we were snuggling and getting romantic and he asked me what I wanted and I said I wanted to make love with him, to really love him and show him how much I cherished him. It just stopped everything in its tracks and he said I can never make him feel that way again because I wanted to do that for OM too. And to put the cherry on the sh1t sundae, I told Matt that I "just wanted to be with him" - a phrase that OM used to get me to have sex with him... I didn't think about it at all, and it seems like a common enough phrase, but Matt doesn't remember me ever saying it to him pre-A and honestly, I wasn't thinking at all about OM saying to me at that moment. So then it becomes a conversation about how unsafe I am because I don't think, don't remember. And 10 minutes before that we were talking about how it feels to him like I am "thinking too much" and not just being genuine, but instead always "trying" to show what I feel, instead of just doing it - like it's calculated or whatever.

I'm just so lost. I want so badly to communicate my feelings, my heart, and mind to Matt, but I keep f'ing it up. Last night he was back to being incredibly angry again, said that if he had the money he'd move out today, and he got out our marriage license, tore it into pieces and threw them all over me while I wept on the floor. I know that's how I treated our marriage, and I have no right to want it and value it now, but I do. I KNOW that's hypocritical and stupid, but it's how I feel. I want more than anything to build a happy future with Matt and our children. But he doesn't want that with me. I'm the trigger. I'm the face of his pain, suffering, physical, mental, and emotional illness. He can't possibly see a way that I could actually also be the face of our healing. I picked up and saved all the little scraps of paper, Matt went to sleep on the couch upstairs, and I slept on a beanbag on the floor a few feet away from him. He's been kind today, we had lunch together.

Physically, I'm surviving, the pregnancy is going ok. I have a job interview on Friday in the city that Matt's family lives in and where I think he'd most like to relocate. It would be going back to an entry-level type position, and a significant pay cut. Unless Matt finds something wonderful that he loves, I'm not sure that we can afford for me to take the job, even if we'd like to move there. I have another offer in a different city, farther from our families that is the opposite end of the spectrum, it would be an advancement of sorts and significantly more money. But I know the last thing Matt wants is to move with me to where he has less support than he has now. Yesterday, he said I should take that job, move away, and he'll decide if he's going to move to the same city or just stay where he is now. I have no intention of doing that. I don't want a separation or divorce, and I certainly don't want to put our son through that until there is no hope left.

I'm just so tired, and I know Matt is too. He hates having the same conversation with me about my crimes and me not being able to offer any new insights or understanding to him. There's nothing I can really say at this point, except that I was stupid, selfish, and cruel. I believe it was a "perfect storm" of sorts that both circumstantially and emotionally allowed me to become such a hideous betrayer. I know so much more about myself, and I truly believe that I would NEVER cheat again. Matt asked me last night if I thought I could be more valuable to him now than I was pre-affair, and I said yes without any hesitation and he was totally surprised. I know so much more about how to make sure a marriage works, what my weaknesses are as a partner, what my true priorities in life are, and how to live that each and every day than I had any inkling about before going through this. He says I will probably make someone else a wonderful wife then. I want to be his wife. I want to use the painful knowledge that I gained to benefit US and help HIM. It's so hard to accept that I may never have that opportunity. I want so badly to be one of those success stories. 

I don't really have any local real-life friends to lean on. I just spend my time and try to share with Matt. I appreciate you all listening and your prayers/positive thoughts more than I can say.


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## calvin

Robsia said:


> Thanks for your replies - glad it's not just me, although I think I'll have to monitor the resentment.


Year later and I still have it,just hang in there Robsia,it gets better but it takes time,it can be hard to look at the one you thought was your soulmate and try to understand How and why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Not my resentment - his.


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## calvin

Robsia said:


> Thanks for your replies - glad it's not just me, although I think I'll have to monitor the resentment.


Year later and I still have it,just hang in there Robsia,it gets better but it takes time,it can be hard to look at the one you thought was your soulmate and try to understand How and why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrQuatto

calvin said:


> Year later and I still have it,just hang in there Robsia,it gets better but it takes time,it can be hard to look at the one you thought was your soulmate and try to understand How and why?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M, pay attention to this as well. R is a long and difficult process and your only possible hope is to stick with it and keep trying. It was 2 years before I FINALLY began to feel my wife was really changing. Even now, 4 years later, there are days that trigger me but they are much fewer and farther between. There remains a chance until you give up. It's long, it's painful and it is defiantly scary but in the long run, it is the only possibility if you truly want to R.

If what you say it's what you really feel, don't give up.


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## calvin

Robsia said:


> Not my resentment - his.


Now that's messed up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

calvin said:


> Now that's messed up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'v edited my original post to make it clear that I am picking up the resentment from him. It's only slight, just a couple of things he has said when I tell him he has to work to win me back.

It's difficult to remember the exact words, but I think one time we were talking about it and I told him he had to show me that he could be the husband I wanted to be with. And he said that I had to show him I could be the wife he wanted to be with also, referring to the fact that I was not entirely blameless in our troubles pre-A.

And yes, I accept that I contributed to those too, but hello! He had the affair, not me.

And one time he was saying something about how this whole thing had made him feel, and I said something about it hardly compared to the way it had made ME feel, and he said it wasn't a competition.

Most of the time he is saying the right things, but just now and again there'll be something that makes me go, "Hmm - surely that's not the attitude he should be displaying."

I really hope MC will sort that out, beause it is bothering me, big time.


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## CantSitStill

The little things Mrs. M that you do will make a difference, so something without him asking. I'll never forget a few months in R after a bad storm I went outside and cleaned up a TON of branches all over our yard, it took me a long time but I couldn't wait for calvin to come home from work and smile knowing he didn't have to do it. I do not know if you normally make your husband's lunch for work or make him coffee. Think of something he really likes, whether it's a blizzard from dairy queen or whatever it is and surprise him..little love notes in his lunch makes them feel better...sometimes when you can see he's hurt, try to go to him, sit on his lap and look him in the eyes and tell him how sorry you are for doing this to him..reassure him. It doesn't always work I know but show him your determination. It is so hard for them to trust again...they love us and want to take care of us and at the same time they can't stand or believe we would do this to them so there is anger and confusion. They think maybe they should D but they also know that won't get rid of their pain because they love us. It sounds confusing..it's the rollercoaster and you just have to be determined to stay by his side even when he don't want you. When you broke down and bawled over what you did, that's because it hit you so hard that you destroyed the heart of the man you really love and I say that's good because it will keep you from EVER doing it again...you have to go thru this pain and he does too even tho he doesn't deserve it but counselling, reading and TAM helps. Calvin and I like to look at Beo and Morrigan and think "that is our goal" it gives us hope that we CAN survive this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Mrs M

You have some important decisions to make considering work, relocation and your marriage.

But I also think you have 3 years to get yourself squared away, your children raised and your marriage back on track.

So stop crying, tighten your panties and get to it.

Because you have something going for you that some WW's do not have???

Your husband is still with you!

And that is a bonus.

You have a chance to rebuild your marriage and increase your family.

So all I will say is go for it. If you really want it then shut up and do it......

Do not give him the chance to leave. Do not give him one reason why he should leave.

HM64


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## CantSitStill

Robsia, when calvin comes to me with talking about the A it suddenly makes me feel so sick to my stomack. It's not resentment I have tword him it's just horrible memories and the self loathing comes in...sometime I ask him if we can be done talking about it soon because it literally makes me physically sick. The why question will always be him telling you how he felt at the time before the A about you, it's not blaming it's more of explaining the thoughts he was thinking to justify it...and GOD It is sooo WRONG!!! We WS' know we should have went to counselling instead of having anything to do with anyone else...we should have worked on the marriage but we can't go back in time and it's frustrating.. I WANT A DO OVER damn it! ugggg I love calvin and sometimes he wonders whether I really do or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

CantSitStill said:


> *I WANT A DO OVER damn it! *


I'm with ya here, CSS


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## Mrs_Mathias

happyman64 said:


> Mrs M
> 
> You have some important decisions to make considering work, relocation and your marriage.
> 
> But I also think you have 3 years to get yourself squared away, your children raised and your marriage back on track.
> 
> So stop crying, tighten your panties and get to it.
> 
> Because you have something going for you that some WW's do not have???
> 
> Your husband is still with you!
> 
> And that is a bonus.
> 
> You have a chance to rebuild your marriage and increase your family.
> 
> So all I will say is go for it. If you really want it then shut up and do it......
> 
> Do not give him the chance to leave. Do not give him one reason why he should leave.
> 
> HM64


I'm doing it. At least, I think I am. And I have no intention of giving up. I'm sorry if my post seemed like that.


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## Robsia

I think it's a touch of blame-shifting. It's probably a natural reaction, to make himself feel not quite so sh!tty. Will have to find a way of gently deal with it, though.


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## Mrs_Mathias

WTH... how is bfree banned now????


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## ChangingMe

Mrs_Mathias said:


> WTH... how is bfree banned now????


Nooooooooo! :wtf:


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## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> WTH... how is bfree banned now????





ChangingMe said:


> Nooooooooo! :wtf:


  :scratchhead: 

What the heck happened? Aside from the fact that bfree is one of the most valuable posters on TAM...... He was also our link to information about Beowulf and Morrigan......


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## CantSitStill

What???????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Mrs_Mathias said:


> WTH... how is bfree banned now????


Can't be true surely!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

just clicked his name, banned
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

The people that have been a huge help to us? : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

It's odd because I thought he's only had time for the beo and morrigan thread lately
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Unbelievable!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> It's odd because I thought he's only had time for the beo and morrigan thread lately
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I'm sure he hasn't been posting else where lately!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

All I know is he's stressed, I hope he didnt go off on someone but it's just not like him to do that? Hmm I hope my comment over there didn't have him PM Chris H or something about Beo and Morrigan being banned..I don't know...I'm guessing here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Bandit got banned today too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> Bandit got banned today too
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


????? What!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Well bandit gets banned alot , it doesn't phase me when bandit gets banned anymore honestly lol sorry bandit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> Well bandit gets banned alot , it doesn't phase me when bandit gets banned anymore honestly lol sorry bandit
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's true!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

This is only speculation but bfree sort of got into it with a new poster to this thread early this morning. 

I notice his post from here has also been deleted.


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## CantSitStill

Oh I didn't notice anything bad hmmm trying to remember..hate that I have no short term memory lately..and no my ADD meds don't seem to be working. Still taking them but I'll talk to my doc soon. Well if it was that, then hopefully it will only be a week or 2.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

ohhh I just remembered a curious one on here made a comment.. I also believe that curious guy said on a thread something about after being on TAM he doesn't know if he'll ever be married. I believe it or not sorta understand that..yep I do..for someone who has not been thru it I can see alot of us in this situation thinking that way before the A. I'm serious, did any BS really think they'd ever go thru this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Robsia said:


> Not my resentment - his.


It's only been 3 weeks and you've said it was a difficult marriage. You have admitted you had shortcomings. Where am I going here...well you probably are detecting some resentment. He has issues with you to work through also. What he may be "hearing" from you is "you're bad, I'm good, I'm driving this train and you sit back and take my lead, oh and you better do everything just right or I'm out."

Now, before you get upset at that, you have every right to feel that way, but it may not lead to a successful R. Sorry that's just the truth. Your husband sounds a lot like my wife, she was resentful as hell in the beginning. She was furious at me for years of neglect. That had to be addressed too. 

It's a very fine line this R is, when you have a hurt spouse and a resentful one. Everyone on tam says you're driving, they do the heavy lifting period. Well I'm just here to tell you it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes the BS has to do some lifting too. Sometimes the BS has to understand the ws's pain also.

Now again, you are detecting resentment so ask him about it. Acknowledge your shortcomings, say you're sorry, this is where it takes two to R.

EI was very angry with me and resentment was spewing from her eyeballs for some time. She was doing the heavy lifting and still felt resentment. She was doing all the right things, and still had resentment. So, I learned to ride a fine line and balance my needs and her needs. 

We talked about the things I did to her pre-a, we addressed my neglect, we talked about it, I told her I was sorry, regretful and I meant it with all my heart, I devastated her emotionally for years. If you did this too then yes, there is probably some resentment,
maybe even a lack of remorse.

Robsia, you cannot force his remorse, it has to come naturally and willingly. Now, I am assuming this resentment you detect is from things pre-A and not something else. You have to talk to him though and get this on the table. This is the hard work I talk about. A successful R is not one sided, not generally anyway.

Yes he needs to do a lot of heavy lifting, he has to acknowledge what he did, he has to admit it was his choosing, his fault. This will come with time, it may not happen all at once either. There are so many things he has to do, but you cannot forget you need to do some things too. And you can't forget this WILL take time. If he truly loves you, is sorry and is committed to R, he will come around.


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## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> But then it started to swing down again. He said he planned to be divorced within 3 years, that he would stay long enough to help me with the infant phase after the baby is born and divorce me when the child is old enough to split time between us.


I say great; "dumbass" just gave you three years to show him?


> I'd been having a rough weekend personally, and to be honest, it's been really building for a while now. I just can barely stomach myself and the things I did. I cry in my office, driving in the car alone, every time Matt or our son does something kind or loving - I'm just a basket case. I'm not holding myself together very well at all, and instead of getting better with counseling and work on self-forgiveness, it's much, much worse. I just don't see how that can ever be possible for someone like me..........


This is not a wasted, sterile pain. It can be necessary and healing. Try your best to not get stuck in shame, it's really useless, paralizing, serves no porpouse. Sometimes unavoidable. OK let it come, ride the wave and shake it til the next. Hang in there.


> I said I wanted to make love with him, to really love him and show him how much I cherished him. I can never make him feel that way again because I wanted to do that for OM too.


Hopely, surely not definitive. I feel loved pretty much. Pain talking. I


> And to put the cherry on the sh1t sundae, I told Matt that I "just wanted to be with him" - a phrase that OM used to get me to have sex with him... I didn't think about it at all, and it seems like a common enough phrase, but Matt doesn't remember me ever saying it to him pre-A and honestly, I wasn't thinking at all about OM saying to me at that moment. So then it becomes a conversation about how unsafe I am because I don't think, don't remember.


I already warned you about this kind of unintentional triggers, f'ing ups, cath 22s and alike. There's little chances you are going to be able to avoid or anticipate them 100 %. Maybe write some things to avoid, maye ask him. You are going to fail sometimes, as everyone.


> And 10 minutes before that we were talking about how it feels to him like I am "thinking too much" and not just being genuine, but instead always "trying" to show what I feel, instead of just doing it - like it's calculated or whatever.


He doesn't trust you. He doubts your motivations, your authenticity, he can't allow himsef to believe you. Not yet. Not after what you did, twice. Just asume it and persevere. Hopely he will believe you one fine day. Be patient. Picture a tiny rain which slowly drenches without noticing it. You are going to be tested big time. You can do it.


> Last night he was back to being incredibly angry again, said that if he had the money he'd move out today, and he got out our marriage license, tore it into pieces and threw them all over me while I wept on the floor. I know that's how I treated our marriage, and I have no right to want it and value it now, but I do.-----------He's been kind today, we had lunch together.


You are at the heat of the rollercoaster as he is. Marriage licence, rings, simbols, mementoes of the relationship... they are very common "victims". I know it seeems the conesquences keep piling up with no rest. Put things in perspective, focus in what's really important. I don't want to minimize the importance of simbols. But it's what it is, what they represent were trashed earlier. The old is dead, build a new one.


> I know so much more about myself, and I truly believe that I would NEVER cheat again. Matt asked me last night if I thought I could be more valuable to him now than I was pre-affair, and I said yes without any hesitation and he was totally surprised. I know so much more about how to make sure a marriage works, what my weaknesses are as a partner, what my true priorities in life are, and how to live that each and every day than I had any inkling about before going through this. He says I will probably make someone else a wonderful wife then. I want to be his wife. I want to use the painful knowledge that I gained to benefit US and help HIM. It's so hard to accept that I may never have that opportunity. I want so badly to be one of those success stories.


This is wonderful, huge and that should be your main priority for a while, yes, over your marriage. You have time to show him you are more self aware and mature. If he manages to find a way to heal from this pain he might see this new you.

Hope you find a work opportunity which suits your porpouses. 
Mrs, happyman is right. Matt is there, he's naturaly struggling but he's there riding the rollercoaster. Ride it with him. Big girl panties on. Fight for him. I want you to give you hope, my wife fought like a mad woman with little to nothing in return for a good while and here we are.
You can do it.


----------



## Acabado

EI said:


> What the heck happened? Aside from the fact that bfree is one of the most valuable posters on TAM...... He was also our link to information about Beowulf and Morrigan......


Is it related?
Can we know in TAM why someone is banned and for what time?


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## Robsia

There was a poster called Furious George - like the cartoon character Curious George, who is a monkey - and bfree called him a 'rude little monkey' as he was being less than constructive on this thread. it might have been that.

B1 - I have read your post and your PM - thank you - and I will get back to you when I have more time to devote to a proper reply.


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## Rookie4

EI, Sweetie sent you a long PM, last night, did you get it? My PC has been acting up and sometimes it goes bat-****, and we lose whatever it is we are doing.


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## Rookie4

MM, you should go and get a new copy of your marriage license, frame it and tell Matt that it is precious to you above all things. Keep the shreds to remind you of just how precious. I burned mine along with all of the pictures of Sweetie and I, only keeping those that had the kids in them, my wedding ring is Kaput, our marriage bed went to Goodwill, and everything she ever gave to me went to the fire. Didn't make me feel one bit better.
A lot can happen in 3 years, just look at Sweetie and I. 2 1/2 years ago I kicked her to the curb, and she deserved it. Now, as I type, she is in my new bed, and loves me more than life. Not too shabby for a hillbilly, huh? If we can do it, you can too.


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## EI

Rookie4 said:


> EI, Sweetie sent you a long PM, last night, did you get it? My PC has been acting up and sometimes it goes bat-****, and we lose whatever it is we are doing.


Yes, I did, Rookie... I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to respond, yet. I have, literally, been burning the candle at both ends for a couple of weeks. In fact, my daughter, grandson, and I just finished grocery shopping for Easter dinner around 1:30 a.m. this morning, brought the groceries in and had them, mostly, put away by 2:30 a.m., started boiling eggs to dye with the baby today, finally got to sleep sometime between 3:30 and 4:00 a.m. this morning, only to get back up less than 3 hours later at 6:30 a.m. to get our s/n son ready and out the door to daycare and our youngest son off to high school. Now, I need to pack B1's lunch so he can get out the door for another day of hunting and gathering rolleyes: - B1 likes to say that..... 'cuz he's so adorable ) Then, as soon as he leaves, in a few minutes, I have to start moving everything off of the floor on the main floor before the carpet cleaning people get here. Our daughter, the baby and I will dye Easter eggs early this afternoon. Eventually, (hopefully ) they will go home early enough for me to get everything put back down after the carpet cleaners have left and the carpet is dried, so that I can attempt to reconstruct the shattered remains of the house after our 18 month old grandson is "finished" with it. If I'm really lucky, (never happens) I'll get all of that plus several loads of laundry done, and a multitude of other things that I need to do, before B1 gets home around 5:00 p.m. That's when I start my second shift for the day.  Third shift starts when B1 goes to bed...... I'm hoping to lay back down before 2:00 a.m tonight/tomorrow. :sleeping:

I suppose I could have just responded to her, very thoughtful, pm instead of typing up this lengthy explanation/justification  (that's wayward speak..... I hope y'all have a sense of humor 'cuz I'm so tired that I'm starting to get slap happy) for not having responded, yet, but to be honest, I really just needed to sit down and take a break..... and typing this was kind of fun and therapeutic and it kills two birds with one stone. I just answered your question AND I posted, here, too!  Now, you guys know why I haven't been posting much for the last few days. I need an icon with the face turned downward and the back of it's hand pressed against it's forehead.

Would you please tell Sweetie how much I appreciate her kind words and that I will respond..... but, it will probably be after Easter! 

And, hey Reconcilers...... If I'm not posting a lot between now and Sunday I hope you all have a Happy Easter! 

Take care,
~EI


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## StarGazer101

Mrs M Your post was heart rending. I know that pain. I can only offer you insight from my experience. Sometimes it overwhelms me and I hit out because I just cannot cope, it's like as if saying it out loud and making him share it might somehow make it go away. It doesn't, and we both hurt, and it's awful. 

BUT he's still here with me now, he's still hanging in there and trying, he hasn't run off to his OW to make it better, he's sticking this out, he's not being that deceitful coward that did this to me - *he's still here and he isn't giving up *. In the depths of me that REALLY matters, it's what keeps the hope there that we might be able to do this. He's shown me that there _is_ more to him than all of that horrible stuff that sometimes takes over my thoughts, and that keeps the spark alive, if sometimes dim.

It'll take a long time, but don't give up hope and don't give up trying. The fact that he hasn't kicked you out says the most important thing.


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> Yes, I did, Rookie... I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to respond, yet. I have, literally, been burning the candle at both ends for a couple of weeks. In fact, my daughter, grandson, and I just finished grocery shopping for Easter dinner around 1:30 a.m. this morning, brought the groceries in and had them, mostly, put away by 2:30 a.m., started boiling eggs to dye with the baby today, finally got to sleep sometime between 3:30 and 4:00 a.m. this morning, only to get back up less than 3 hours later at 6:30 a.m. to get our s/n son ready and out the door to daycare and our youngest son off to high school. Now, I need to pack B1's lunch so he can get out the door for another day of hunting and gathering rolleyes: - B1 likes to say that..... 'cuz he's so adorable ) Then, as soon as he leaves, in a few minutes, I have to start moving everything off of the floor on the main floor before the carpet cleaning people get here. Our daughter, the baby and I will dye Easter eggs early this afternoon. Eventually, (hopefully ) they will go home early enough for me to get everything put back down after the carpet cleaners have left and the carpet is dried, so that I can attempt to reconstruct the shattered remains of the house after our 18 month old grandson is "finished" with it. If I'm really lucky, (never happens) I'll get all of that plus several loads of laundry done, and a multitude of other things that I need to do, before B1 gets home around 5:00 p.m. That's when I start my second shift for the day.  Third shift starts when B1 goes to bed...... I'm hoping to lay back down before 2:00 a.m tonight/tomorrow. :sleeping:
> 
> I suppose I could have just responded to her, very thoughtful, pm instead of typing up this lengthy explanation/justification  (that's wayward speak..... I hope y'all have a sense of humor 'cuz I'm so tired that I'm starting to get slap happy) for not having responded, yet, but to be honest, I really just needed to sit down and take a break..... and typing this was kind of fun and therapeutic and it kills two birds with one stone. I just answered your question AND I posted, here, too!  Now, you guys know why I haven't been posting much for the last few days. I need an icon with the face turned downward and the back of it's hand pressed against it's forehead.
> 
> Would you please tell Sweetie how much I appreciate her kind words and that I will respond..... but, it will probably be after Easter!  .And, hey Reconcilers...... If I'm not posting a lot between now and Sunday I hope you all have a Happy Easter!
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


Well, don't feel lonesome, EI. Sweetie and I are having all of the kids, their SO's, and the in-laws (I should say former in-laws) over for Easter dinner and she is already going into spasms about it.
I will have you know that my house is very clean. I have ( or had)a woman come once a week to do the housework. Of course, it isn't nearly clean enough for Sweetie, so I had to fire her. On the bright side, I get to feel up the help, and get some wicked BJ's, so I can't complain.
We are having Roast Leg of lamb. We always have leg of lamb for Easter. A. Because I LIKE leg of lamb. And B. Because I like Leg of Lamb. But Sweetie has pointed out to me that there are SOME members of my family who do not care for it. I assume she is refering to her side of the family. So I am going to also have Roast Chicken for the Philistines. GEEZ, who doesn't like leg of lamb? What kind of world are we living in, where people who don't like leg of lamb, get to roam around free, instead of being put in the nuthouse where they belong?


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## Robsia

Rookie4 said:


> We are having Roast Leg of lamb. We always have leg of lamb for Easter. A. Because I LIKE leg of lamb. And B. Because I like Leg of Lamb. But Sweetie has pointed out to me that there are SOME members of my family who do not care for it. I assume she is refering to her side of the family. So I am going to also have Roast Chicken for the Philistines. GEEZ, who doesn't like leg of lamb? What kind of world are we living in, where people who don't like leg of lamb, get to roam around free, instead of being put in the nuthouse where they belong?



It's cruel!

Just the thought of all those three-legged lambs hopping about to feed your disgusting appetite makes me feel sick!!


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

So anyone know how long Bfree is banned for? I am on mobile and it doesn't show.

I assume it's a temporary ban?


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## EI

Robsia said:


> It's cruel!
> 
> Just the thought of all those three-legged lambs hopping about to feed your disgusting appetite makes me feel sick!!


Robsia has a sense of humor..... I like her already! :rofl:


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## Rookie4

Robsia said:


> It's cruel!
> 
> Just the thought of all those three-legged lambs hopping about to feed your disgusting appetite makes me feel sick!!


It's their own fault for being delicious. If they had been born skunks or toads, nobody would want to eat them, would they?
This is what happens when you have an interracial relationship. I (and all of my family before me) are from Good Old England, Sweetie (on the other hand) is from a backward, third world country (France) where they eat things for Easter that I usually use for Catfish bait.


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## Rookie4

It's like my Ol Pappy used to say. There are only two types of people in this world. British (English, Irish, Welsh and Scots)......and weirdos (everybody else). Turkey is for Thanksgiving, Roast Beef is for Christmas, Leg of Lamb is for Easter, BBQ is for 4th of July, and Ham is for Labor Day. See? Simple. I even know some people who have DUCK!!!! for a holiday dinner!!! WTF??


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## EI

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> So anyone know how long Bfree is banned for? I am on mobile and it doesn't show.
> 
> I assume it's a temporary ban?


I pm'd Chris H. He said that bfree's ban is for 5 days. I suspect that it was for his comments to Furious George on this thread. If so, I feel bad about it because I had a knee-jerk reaction to Furious George for his comment about bfree's suggestion for you. 

I'd seen his comments on other threads and I felt that he wasn't posting here to be helpful, but instead to project his anger regarding his situation onto others. On this thread that is the very thing that we strive to avoid. But, I should have taken a page from my own book and been a little more welcoming and a little less judgmental. Had I not responded the way I did, then bfree would probably not have felt the need to defend the thread and wouldn't have gotten banned....  I don't know any of this for sure, but it's my best guess........ Sorry guys


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## Rookie4

For shame, EI. It's all your fault. You should have guessed what was in his mind, shouldn't you? Why don't you let adults do what they please and stop being "Mom"? You know what? I love you to pieces.


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## Rookie4

In a platonic , brotherly sort of way. LOL You and Sweetie are cut from the same cloth. You both take on too much of the worry and stress and guilt. Believe it or not, some things happen that you can do nothing about. Go drink a cup of tea and relax for a few.


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## CantSitStill

and I thought it was my fault..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Rookie4 said:


> In a platonic , brotherly sort of way. LOL You and Sweetie are cut from the same cloth. You both take on too much of the worry and stress and guilt. Believe it or not, some things happen that you can do nothing about. Go drink a cup of tea and relax for a few.


You know, Rookie, you're right. bfree, you're on your own!  I am not responsible for this!  Now, I am just going to take a break, kick back in the midst of the ruins of Hurricane Brody (aka our grandson) and try not to have a melt down while he spreads mustard, like fingerpaint, all over my mother's walnut dining room table. 

Can someone PLEASE come to my house and remove our child, our grandchild, and all of their "stuff" that is strewn about throughout the house so that I can get ready for Easter???? They have their very own house, a nice house, albeit a rather untidy one, that is very conveniently located 20 milies south of here. PLEASE GO HOME......


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## pidge70

Joe and I are still working it out. Thought I'd let you guys know in case you were wondering.


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## EI

pidge70 said:


> Joe and I are still working it out. Thought I'd let you guys know in case you were wondering.


I'm glad to hear it, Pidge... I know reconciliation is hard work. I hope you and Joe and the kids have a Happy Easter!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

We are off out on our second date night since D-day. Looking forward to it


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## Acabado

pidge70 said:


> Joe and I are still working it out. Thought I'd let you guys know in case you were wondering.


So glad to hear it. I was thinking on you and Joe.
Hang tough, guys!


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## hopefulgirl

Could use some input. Big blow up last night. 

An issue that I had identified as a big problem area, one that may have started the secrecy habit with my WS, ignited it. 

I didn't think he was cheating when he didn't call or text when he was out and about before his workday started yesterday (this week, he's starts late & works late). But I suspected he went and spent money on one of his hobbies, after his haircut - I knew he left home early for the haircut, but he never mentioned he'd be making any other stops. Turns out I was right.

He usually sends texts or calls when out but not at work - sometimes with photos even. But yesterday, nothing. Not a word until he had a break in his work day, and then it was a text to ask if it was OK with me if he played video games online as soon as he got home because the guy he wanted to play with had to get up early.

I said fine, we could have time together the next day. But I went online and saw he'd paid $65 for something at Best Buy (he later told me it was the game this other guy wanted to play last night).

Then I decided to add up his hobby purchases for March - so far. Just short of $2,000. That's stuff I can see online, debit and credit cards. We are NOT wealthy people.

We had talked about another purchase he made a few days ago, and he did consult with me - it was something he ordered online for $160. I didn't say please don't, but I didn't enthusiastically say "fine" - I was aware he was buying a lot of stuff locally but wasn't aware then just how many smaller online purchases he'd made this month (boy do they add up). 

I had suggested we start keeping track of our discretionary spending because I was concerned about our non-retirement savings going down instead of up, or even staying level (this is all money I brought into the marriage). Plus, his credit cards were starting to have balances again (they didn't for awhile there - I had paid them off a few times before we got married from my savings - twice the balance was around $1,000, a couple times less than that; I hate the idea of paying interest!).

I am the saver - I owned what is now our house (has a little mortgage), but did a quit claim deed when we married so he is on the deed now too. I had savings coming into the marriage (we were both married before) - he had none: his divorce and (he says) his ex-wife's debts wiped out his 401k. 

He pretty much lives for today, for having fun - he always used to say "at least I'm not going to taverns." True, but if he didn't have a 401k that he's been contributing extra to since I encouraged him to do that (he had catching up to do), he'd have nothing to point to that he can say he's saved. 

I made the mistake of trying to "catch" him. He said he had done some errands before work. He named the haircut and one other. I said "anyplace else?" He said, "why?" I repeated the question, and he repeated haircut and the other thing and "why?" Then I told him what I'd found online about Best Buy. He lost it.

He said he didn't like me trying to catch him, he really did forget. He wasn't trying to hide it. And he wasn't having another affair - if he wanted to have an affair, he could do it and I'd never find out. (WOW. OUCH.) He threatened to change his passwords. I begged him not to - I said that's not what being a married couple is all about, that we have to be a financial partnership and not keep anything from each other. He said I should have just asked about Best Buy without trying to catch him. He said he didn't want to talk about it anymore, and went to the basement to play his game.

I packed a bag and went to a hotel - I was so upset, I wasn't going to stew while he played the new game he bought, and I knew I couldn't sleep in our bed (we don't have any others in our small house - one of the bedrooms is his non-video game hobby room!). 

I had left him a note, saying he'd said some mean things and I wanted to be able to sleep, so I'd gone to a hotel. When he finished playing, he called and asked what mean things did he say. I said, "you said you could have an affair and I'd never know, so you could have had several. That really upset me. How many others HAVE you had?" "None, but don't you think I was upset?" I said, "How do you think that made me feel, when you said that? Now I'm wondering if there were others" and he said something about how I made him feel when I tried to catch him and he didn't want to talk right then and said "go ahead and stay at your hotel" and hung up on me.

My gut tells me there weren't other affairs, that it was a nasty comment intended to hurt me (succeeded). But how can I NOT ask about this again, and probably again and again?

And the money thing - I think he overreacts because he DOES have a spending problem, and he's like other addicts who blow up when you confront them: they try to deflect and turn the problem so it looks like it's YOU. I think his anxiety (it's been amped up) plus the guilt and shame may be driving this new spending spree. It could also be replacing the thrill of the affair. He doesn't miss her - I know that's not the problem. But he might miss the excitement. Buying things gives some people a buzz.

He did call this morning, with a vague apology. "Sorry I was such a poop." That's something but it doesn't address any issues. I told him I was sorry for trying to catch him. We'll see if we can talk this out tonight, but we've had LOTS of trouble even discussing his spending, even prior to the affair. Any suggestions???


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## badmemory

I won't try to analyze your husband, but does he still suffer from anxiety? (you mentioned that in an earlier thread).

Spending highs are just one of the many avenues a person with an addictive personality may try to relieve anxiety. Does he have or has he had other addictive traits? Alcohol? Sex? Porn? Compulsions?

If not, never mind. If so, maybe he needs IC.


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## hopefulgirl

He does suffer from anxiety, and he started IC prior to the affair because of it; a panic attack finally convinced him he needed help. He is still in IC, but I doubt he's mentioned his spending as a problem in his counseling sesssions because he doesn't think it IS a problem. 

No other addictions, though the online video gaming has seen some sessions - not recently - that went over 10 hours on weekends. Some of his hobbies are healthy - one is artistic, another athletic (though it's a warm weather activity so he hasn't done that one in a few months). And he even picked up a brand new hobby this month! But he spends $$ on ALL his hobbies so that he has spare tools, parts, and gizmos up the wazoo for all of them. He's got his hobby room, a video gaming section in the basement, and much of the garage devoted to them. 

The spending was exceptionally out of hand this month; we are nearing the 2 month anniversary of D-Day. In the first month, he was physically ill from his anxiety much of the time (diarrhea, headaches) so he didn't seem to have as much interest in his hobbies. Now he's just gone overboard with them - shopping as well as spending a lot of time on them.

Interestingly, his rewrite of our marital history goes that I didn't pay enough attention to him so he dove into his hobbies. Now, while we've spent some time together, I often can't get him to talk with me or even watch TV with me because he's spending so much time on the hobbies, so I mentioned the other day that his story about the hobbies being a substitute for attention from me wasn't holding water...


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## B1

pidge70 said:


> Joe and I are still working it out. Thought I'd let you guys know in case you were wondering.


Pidge, that's great news....I know your last post wasn't that positive. You know you can use us all here anytime, bounce off ideas, feelings, problems, things that your thinking, how things are going etc. your usually pretty quiet..so it's hard to read what's going on with you and joe. 

But...I'm glad to hear this latest news.

Hang in there pidge, and please keep us posted and let us know how things are going and if there is anything we can do.


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## CantSitStill

pidge70 said:


> Joe and I are still working it out. Thought I'd let you guys know in case you were wondering.


Hey Pidge, praying that it does work out, I understand , I really do. Not sure if we are gonna make it but like you two, we go back and forth and it's draining : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Pidge I also want you to know, if you ever need someone to talk to you can PM me anytime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

HG,
It's going to be a tough R if he doesn't give you two some time together and get a grip on this avoidance of reality.

Also, he was mad because you were checking up on him and that you caught him in a lie, hello, your only two months past Dday he should be checked up on and he should not be trying to deceive you in any way period, that's just wrong. Transparency means just that, open and honest, and complete visibility of ALL actions. 

You have your hands full.


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## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Last night was just really rough for us. We got through the extreme anger at the beginning of the month and I felt like we had a really good 10-12 days or so, went out on a date, just spent time together at home, snuggling, talking, playing video games. We spent a couple of days apart over spring break and texted a lot, Matt said he was thinking of me, was looking forward to seeing me and our son, even brought me a beautiful pair of earrings from a museum he'd visited.
> 
> But then it started to swing down again. He said he planned to be divorced within 3 years, that he would stay long enough to help me with the infant phase after the baby is born and divorce me when the child is old enough to split time between us. Of course, I'm grateful for ANY time that he chooses to spend with me, and I want to hope that a lot can happen in three years. After that conversation on Friday, things were ok for Saturday and most of Sunday until I put my foot in my mouth Sunday night.
> 
> I'd been having a rough weekend personally, and to be honest, it's been really building for a while now. I just can barely stomach myself and the things I did. I cry in my office, driving in the car alone, every time Matt or our son does something kind or loving - I'm just a basket case. I'm not holding myself together very well at all, and instead of getting better with counseling and work on self-forgiveness, it's much, much worse. I just don't see how that can ever be possible for someone like me. So Saturday night, Matt and I watched Grave of the Fireflies, which is like one of the most beautiful Miyuzaki films but also the most depressing film of all time, and I just had a melt down. Bawled in our bed for what seemed like hours, just blubbering to Matt about how sorry I am, how much I hate what I've done to our lives, everything. He was so kind and loving, just rubbed my back and talked with me. He even said things like it's better to have a real relationship than fantasy, and we can work on making new things special for us as we go forward. But then Sunday I spoiled all that. When we went to bed, we were snuggling and getting romantic and he asked me what I wanted and I said I wanted to make love with him, to really love him and show him how much I cherished him. It just stopped everything in its tracks and he said I can never make him feel that way again because I wanted to do that for OM too. And to put the cherry on the sh1t sundae, I told Matt that I "just wanted to be with him" - a phrase that OM used to get me to have sex with him... I didn't think about it at all, and it seems like a common enough phrase, but Matt doesn't remember me ever saying it to him pre-A and honestly, I wasn't thinking at all about OM saying to me at that moment. So then it becomes a conversation about how unsafe I am because I don't think, don't remember. And 10 minutes before that we were talking about how it feels to him like I am "thinking too much" and not just being genuine, but instead always "trying" to show what I feel, instead of just doing it - like it's calculated or whatever.
> 
> I'm just so lost. I want so badly to communicate my feelings, my heart, and mind to Matt, but I keep f'ing it up. Last night he was back to being incredibly angry again, said that if he had the money he'd move out today, and he got out our marriage license, tore it into pieces and threw them all over me while I wept on the floor. I know that's how I treated our marriage, and I have no right to want it and value it now, but I do. I KNOW that's hypocritical and stupid, but it's how I feel. I want more than anything to build a happy future with Matt and our children. But he doesn't want that with me. I'm the trigger. I'm the face of his pain, suffering, physical, mental, and emotional illness. He can't possibly see a way that I could actually also be the face of our healing. I picked up and saved all the little scraps of paper, Matt went to sleep on the couch upstairs, and I slept on a beanbag on the floor a few feet away from him. He's been kind today, we had lunch together.
> 
> Physically, I'm surviving, the pregnancy is going ok. I have a job interview on Friday in the city that Matt's family lives in and where I think he'd most like to relocate. It would be going back to an entry-level type position, and a significant pay cut. Unless Matt finds something wonderful that he loves, I'm not sure that we can afford for me to take the job, even if we'd like to move there. I have another offer in a different city, farther from our families that is the opposite end of the spectrum, it would be an advancement of sorts and significantly more money. But I know the last thing Matt wants is to move with me to where he has less support than he has now. Yesterday, he said I should take that job, move away, and he'll decide if he's going to move to the same city or just stay where he is now. I have no intention of doing that. I don't want a separation or divorce, and I certainly don't want to put our son through that until there is no hope left.
> 
> I'm just so tired, and I know Matt is too. He hates having the same conversation with me about my crimes and me not being able to offer any new insights or understanding to him. There's nothing I can really say at this point, except that I was stupid, selfish, and cruel. I believe it was a "perfect storm" of sorts that both circumstantially and emotionally allowed me to become such a hideous betrayer. I know so much more about myself, and I truly believe that I would NEVER cheat again. Matt asked me last night if I thought I could be more valuable to him now than I was pre-affair, and I said yes without any hesitation and he was totally surprised. I know so much more about how to make sure a marriage works, what my weaknesses are as a partner, what my true priorities in life are, and how to live that each and every day than I had any inkling about before going through this. He says I will probably make someone else a wonderful wife then. I want to be his wife. I want to use the painful knowledge that I gained to benefit US and help HIM. It's so hard to accept that I may never have that opportunity. I want so badly to be one of those success stories.
> 
> I don't really have any local real-life friends to lean on. I just spend my time and try to share with Matt. I appreciate you all listening and your prayers/positive thoughts more than I can say.


When Matt triggers you need to provide positive memories. Do not let the negative be the only thing. You need specific times and things. He (and you) need to remember the good things.

Do not just sit and take it. Help him refocus and think of the great moments you shared.


----------



## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> and I thought it was my fault..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, it normally is, but you're off the hook for this one. Bfree has been given a "time out". All on his lonesome.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> You know, Rookie, you're right. bfree, you're on your own!  I am not responsible for this!  Now, I am just going to take a break, kick back in the midst of the ruins of Hurricane Brody (aka our grandson) and try not to have a melt down while he spreads mustard, like fingerpaint, all over my mother's walnut dining room table.
> 
> Can someone PLEASE come to my house and remove our child, our grandchild, and all of their "stuff" that is strewn about throughout the house so that I can get ready for Easter???? They have their very own house, a nice house, albeit a rather untidy one, that is very conveniently located 20 milies south of here. PLEASE GO HOME......


You want to know how to get your kids to leave? Tell them they will have to do the housework. That usually gets my offspring to run for the hills.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thanks for the support, B1. I understand that he didn't like the way I "caught" him. I could have avoided the "trap" questioning and just let him know that his "going silent" all morning made me suspicious since he usually gets in touch with me when he's out, so I looked online and saw a purchase at Best Buy - was he trying to hide it? BUT, of course, he would have said no. I'm not sure he can even be honest with himself about this stuff.

I was so tired when he got home (late, which is his work schedule this week), I thought I'd let him do the heavy lifting, and I decided I woudn't initiate the difficult conversation but would leave it to him to get it started. When he walked in, I offered him some soup I'd made - he said no, and took out the garbage. While he changed out of his work clothes I sat down and picked up the newpaper. He came downstairs, walked by me and went to the basement - yep, to play video games. I went down an hour later to get some laundry out of the dryer, and told him I was going to bed.

This morning, he left for an early IC session. That's unusual - probably had to change his appointment due to his work schedule change this week. Wonder how much of the real story he'll tell his counselor....


----------



## hopefulgirl

Mrs_Mathias said:


> So Saturday night, Matt and I watched Grave of the Fireflies, which is like one of the most beautiful Miyuzaki films but also the most depressing film of all time, and I just had a melt down. Bawled in our bed for what seemed like hours


I feel so bad for you - you have worked so hard on yourself, you are obviously deeply remorseful (I wish I could sense such depth of remorse in my WS), and yet the fragile state of your relationship continues to cause you ongoing pain.

I thought of one tiny suggestion that I hope might help - I love movies, and the arts can be SO powerful. This might not be a good time in your relationship (or in your pregnancy) to be viewing depressing films. It looks like the movie could have been the start of a cascade of bad events for you. Gorgeous though it is, that film touched places you don't need to have touched. TOO raw. They may not be high art, but you might want to restrict your movie viewing to comedies. Though some of the classic comedies ARE high art, if you go way back - Charlie Chaplin, etc. 

You might want to choose your movie viewing to ENHANCE your mood, rather than make it worse. If you love films, you KNOW they can do that for you. 

Take care, and hang in there. You did a bad thing, but PLEASE don't let that define you. You ARE a good person. You are so much more than what happened in that one phase of your life. Please continue to work on self-forgiveness. If you just insist on beating yourself up some more, maybe you can promise yourself to do it (but not too much, OK??) after the baby is born. You - and your baby - deserve to have positive emotions a good percentage of the time, and that includes laughter!


----------



## ChangingMe

Looking through old threads, I see that it says "Member" instead of "Banned" under Dig's name, so I guess that means . . . 

Welcome back, Dig! You were missed. :smthumbup:

Oh, and tell your wife that she should post even when you're not banned.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> You want to know how to get your kids to leave? Tell them they will have to do the housework. That usually gets my offspring to run for the hills.



You know, you would think that it might work that way. Interestingly enough, it doesn't. Over the years, my children have become very adept escape artists, I kid you not. Between school, jobs, college classes (local,) and their social lives, their schedules vary so much that I usually do not know if they are coming or going. The childrens' bedrooms are upstairs and/or downstairs. Our bedroom is on the main floor. In order to see if any one of them is actually home it is easier to check the driveway to see if their car is here or to call them on their cell phone.... which they usually avoid answering like it's the plague. Although I can't be sure, I suspect that they have a "special" ringtone for "Mom." When I start talking about "chores" they quickly become chameleons, blending into the walls, furniture and carpet, until they can make their escape. I try to keep it simple with the boys; put your dirty laundry in the laundry room.... preferably, more than an hour before you need it, keep the trash cans in your room emptied (this one is very important, especially, as they often like to switch rooms and think nothing of leaving their overflowing trash cans/bags behind ) and put your dirty dishes (which were never supposed to be in your rooms to begin with) in the sink or dishwasher. IF, they could manage those simple requests, I would be deliriously happy..... It doesn't seem to work out that way....


----------



## old timer

EI, who pays for those cars in the driveway?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

old timer said:


> EI, who pays for those cars in the driveway?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, let's don't discuss that, k? 

Today, I am just trying to figure out when I can stop making the kids' Easter Baskets... :scratchhead:

Is it when they stop believing in the Easter Bunny (that shipped has long sailed,) when they turn 18 (youngest will be 18 next month,) when they graduate from high school, go to college, move out, get married, have kids of their own..... ??? 

    :scratchhead:

I feel like CSS the other day when she said......

*I WANT A DO OVER....... DARN IT! *

_And, you know, if I stop making them now...... some other mother will still be doing them for their great grandchildren and I will be the loser mom. _ As it is, I am already making them for all of the kids, the son-in-law, the grandson... am I supposed to do the boys' girlfriends, too? :scratchhead:

_my head hurts_


----------



## CantSitStill

I hate the Easter Bunny and so I asked the kids at a young age if they really believe a bunny comes hopping into our home LOL I Don't care how mean that is. I do give them both a basket tho, oldest is 19 youngest 14 so it's just alittle. My son still likes to search for those plastic eggs but I don't think I'm doing that this year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

hi everyone:

it seems like it always feels like this: things are going in the right direction, but i am having a struggle.

a couple of weeks ago (or was it yesterday? or last year?) i was trying to figure out how i felt about getting all the details about the A, and decided (and still believe) that as painful as it is to know everything, that sick feeling that you have when you know that you don't know was worse -- and was something that i couldn't live with.

so, long story short(ish), with the help of our outstanding MC, we got there. it all came out, all records are open, all passwords known, etc. plus fWH volunteered to be tracked via GPS. he is at that difficult place that the WSs here know about -- feeling remorseful and also angry and horrified at himself. 

if i'm rational about it, i'm aware that i do not regret for one minute knowing all the truth. i had confronted him about there being two As plus assorted flings (i was right) and i know now how long they went on, what happened, how many texts were exchanged, and all that.

i don't regret it, and i even knew it already -- i had found this stuff out for myself, except for some details. so WHY does it have to hit me like this? why does it have to be so hard AGAIN?

although we have been maybe the slowest couple on this thread to achieve this kind of progress in our R, we are at a place that i had hoped for, a place that i've seen lots of you reach together. fWH is accountable and remorseful. he is actually talking about feelings and how important they are (what?!) and believes that MC is effective (WHAT?!) and believes that we can/need to have a better, _different_ marriage as the result of R. 

i feel that i should be happy...? and i am, in a way. i'm grateful and appreciative and somewhat amazed. but hearing these details also floors me and infuriates me and fills me with that feeling of _how could you?!!_ 

it's almost like it is all happening now! i have to keep reminding myself that although these details are new to the conversation, they happened (and ended) a while back.... we have already moved on from there as a couple.

of course, he's at a low place right now himself. and i know from all of you that that's real suffering, too -- so i feel for him as well.

so that's my story. maybe it's time for some serious uphill movement, if i can just not throw him out the window


----------



## CantSitStill

Don't feel you have to be "over" it because hey these are new details you learned with makes it feel like D-day all over again and that hurts. He did not tell you everything and you have the right to be upset. He is I'm sure very angry with himself..apalled at what he did. But he still needs to comfort you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> it seems like it always feels like this: things are going in the right direction, but i am having a struggle.
> 
> a couple of weeks ago (or was it yesterday? or last year?) i was trying to figure out how i felt about getting all the details about the A, and decided (and still believe) that as painful as it is to know everything, that sick feeling that you have when you know that you don't know was worse -- and was something that i couldn't live with.
> 
> so, long story short(ish), with the help of our outstanding MC, we got there. it all came out, all records are open, all passwords known, etc. plus fWH volunteered to be tracked via GPS. he is at that difficult place that the WSs here know about -- feeling remorseful and also angry and horrified at himself.
> 
> if i'm rational about it, i'm aware that i do not regret for one minute knowing all the truth. i had confronted him about there being two As plus assorted flings (i was right) and i know now how long they went on, what happened, how many texts were exchanged, and all that.
> 
> i don't regret it, and i even knew it already -- i had found this stuff out for myself, except for some details. so WHY does it have to hit me like this? why does it have to be so hard AGAIN?
> 
> although we have been maybe the slowest couple on this thread to achieve this kind of progress in our R, we are at a place that i had hoped for, a place that i've seen lots of you reach together. fWH is accountable and remorseful. he is actually talking about feelings and how important they are (what?!) and believes that MC is effective (WHAT?!) and believes that we can/need to have a better, _different_ marriage as the result of R.
> 
> i feel that i should be happy...? and i am, in a way. i'm grateful and appreciative and somewhat amazed. but hearing these details also floors me and infuriates me and fills me with that feeling of _how could you?!!_
> 
> it's almost like it is all happening now! i have to keep reminding myself that although these details are new to the conversation, they happened (and ended) a while back.... we have already moved on from there as a couple.
> 
> of course, he's at a low place right now himself. and i know from all of you that that's real suffering, too -- so i feel for him as well.
> 
> so that's my story. maybe it's time for some serious uphill movement, if i can just not throw him out the window


Marge you are not the slowest coulple,R really is a up hill battle for both that are trying.
I feel you H is seeing the damage he did and he hates himself for the pain he caused.
Now he's feeling pain also.
After a couple months CSS told me maybe POS was a nice guys,it took her awhile to actually see what she did.
New details hurt like hell but like you I have to know,otherwise I can't move foward.
I do have most of the details but every now and then she remembers something and its like the pain starts all over again.
You both are getting there,go at your own pace.
Slow and steady wins the race when it comes to this crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I thought we were the slowest couple to be moving uphill aside from Joe and Pidge..All couples are in different situations and it's not a race and it doesn't matter which couples are "doing better" than others. I just am praying for all of you and I know you all are praying for us..this stuff is rough on all of us. I am so so thankful for everyone on this thread. It is my favorite thread to come to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

thank you, calvin and css!

it's my favorite thread, too.

yes, slow and steady, thank you for reminding me that it's not a race  

you know where i think that comes from? reading those threads where there's sometimes a pile-on if the WS is not doing everything that they should do quickly enough and/or if the BS still wants to work on the marriage after that. my fWH most CERTAINLY did not see the light as quickly as some, and i still wanted to work on the marriage anyway, AND i also sensed his pain... so i think i became a little defensive about all that.

but i don't need to feel that way! thanks you two


----------



## B1

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> it seems like it always feels like this: things are going in the right direction, but i am having a struggle.
> 
> a couple of weeks ago (or was it yesterday? or last year?) i was trying to figure out how i felt about getting all the details about the A, and decided (and still believe) that as painful as it is to know everything, that sick feeling that you have when you know that you don't know was worse -- and was something that i couldn't live with.
> 
> so, long story short(ish), with the help of our outstanding MC, we got there. it all came out, all records are open, all passwords known, etc. plus fWH volunteered to be tracked via GPS. he is at that difficult place that the WSs here know about -- feeling remorseful and also angry and horrified at himself.
> 
> if i'm rational about it, i'm aware that i do not regret for one minute knowing all the truth. i had confronted him about there being two As plus assorted flings (i was right) and i know now how long they went on, what happened, how many texts were exchanged, and all that.
> 
> i don't regret it, and i even knew it already -- i had found this stuff out for myself, except for some details. so WHY does it have to hit me like this? why does it have to be so hard AGAIN?
> 
> although we have been maybe the slowest couple on this thread to achieve this kind of progress in our R, we are at a place that i had hoped for, a place that i've seen lots of you reach together. fWH is accountable and remorseful. he is actually talking about feelings and how important they are (what?!) and believes that MC is effective (WHAT?!) and believes that we can/need to have a better, _different_ marriage as the result of R.
> 
> i feel that i should be happy...? and i am, in a way. i'm grateful and appreciative and somewhat amazed. but hearing these details also floors me and infuriates me and fills me with that feeling of _how could you?!!_
> 
> it's almost like it is all happening now! i have to keep reminding myself that although these details are new to the conversation, they happened (and ended) a while back.... we have already moved on from there as a couple.
> 
> of course, he's at a low place right now himself. and i know from all of you that that's real suffering, too -- so i feel for him as well.
> 
> so that's my story. maybe it's time for some serious uphill movement, if i can just not throw him out the window


Margrace, glad you got your answers. But, as you are discovering, that doesn't equal healed and doesn't mean it's all better. In a way your journey is just beginning.

Now you have to deal with something new, the details, they hurt margrace, god do they hurt. It does feel likes its happening now, I know what you mean. 

We have to learn this happened then and it's not happening now. This is, in a way, old news, even though its new news to you. 

I myself have had a rough day today, it's still a struggle sometimes. Those details get me even today. Your not going slow, your moving at your pace, like CSS said this isn't a race. Your husband is a lucky man though that you have the patience you do.

Yes, you do want to say sometimes how could you. That's so common. In my case I know that answer, hopefully you do too. That helps. It's not an excuse but to know how and why does help.

Yes you may feel like your going uphill but this ok, your moving forward and that's what really counts.

It really sounds like your husband is invested in this now, for that I am so happy for you. For getting the details I'm sorry margrace, it hurts, I know. It's going to hurt for a while too. It's just part of it all. It's part of R.

In a way when we decided to R, this is what we signed up for. It's what we committed to. 

In this pain though there is definitely joy and happiness too. There is a new closeness, a lot of new things to be had. There is a newness unlike anything I have experienced before. It comes with a price though but one I am willing to pay. And it gets cheaper with time 

Your doing this margrace, just keep putting one foot in front of the other.


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> I thought we were the slowest couple to be moving uphill aside from Joe and Pidge..All couples are in different situations and it's not a race and it doesn't matter which couples are "doing better" than others. I just am praying for all of you and I know you all are praying for us..this stuff is rough on all of us. I am so so thankful for everyone on this thread. It is my favorite thread to come to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who's to say who's doing better than who?

It can be so up and down, Calvin said a while back he had several good days in a row...I was thinking wow that's great, not sure I can say that considering I have bad moments within each day.

Today has been a hard one for me. No particular reason it just is.

Prior to that its been a couple good days. 

But we are in this for the long haul....I know that for sure.


----------



## joe kidd

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> it seems like it always feels like this: things are going in the right direction, but i am having a struggle.
> 
> a couple of weeks ago (or was it yesterday? or last year?) i was trying to figure out how i felt about getting all the details about the A, and decided (and still believe) that as painful as it is to know everything, that sick feeling that you have when you know that you don't know was worse -- and was something that i couldn't live with.
> 
> so, long story short(ish), with the help of our outstanding MC, we got there. it all came out, all records are open, all passwords known, etc. plus fWH volunteered to be tracked via GPS. he is at that difficult place that the WSs here know about -- feeling remorseful and also angry and horrified at himself.
> 
> if i'm rational about it, i'm aware that i do not regret for one minute knowing all the truth. i had confronted him about there being two As plus assorted flings (i was right) and i know now how long they went on, what happened, how many texts were exchanged, and all that.
> 
> i don't regret it, and i even knew it already -- i had found this stuff out for myself, except for some details. so WHY does it have to hit me like this? why does it have to be so hard AGAIN?
> 
> although we have been maybe the slowest couple on this thread to achieve this kind of progress in our R, we are at a place that i had hoped for, a place that i've seen lots of you reach together. fWH is accountable and remorseful. he is actually talking about feelings and how important they are (what?!) and believes that MC is effective (WHAT?!) and believes that we can/need to have a better, _different_ marriage as the result of R.
> 
> i feel that i should be happy...? and i am, in a way. i'm grateful and appreciative and somewhat amazed. but hearing these details also floors me and infuriates me and fills me with that feeling of _how could you?!!_
> 
> it's almost like it is all happening now! i have to keep reminding myself that although these details are new to the conversation, they happened (and ended) a while back.... we have already moved on from there as a couple.
> 
> of course, he's at a low place right now himself. and i know from all of you that that's real suffering, too -- so i feel for him as well.
> 
> so that's my story. maybe it's time for some serious uphill movement, if i can just not throw him out the window


It's not a race. It's not a contest. Things happen when they do.


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh I just meant, we are 15 months along and it don't matter whether you are 5 yrs or 2 months the struggles are there..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

No my WH has not stilled yet and D Day was 9/1/2011. He will get it done one way or another and I do have the tools to push it all the way. What I don't understand is how he can sit here and plan our future as if it is a given. I have a say here too. And until I know everything I will not make another commitment one way or another. We sit in Limbo-land....... (that's ok for now we have 3 grand kids living with us and their world has been shaken way to much for their ages. As a distraction it's been somewhat healing as they are my reason to get up and face the world each day. To hold my temper in check and keep myself even. (Have Bi-polar no medications for years now but this has trigger panic attacks and I don't leave the house much at all)
So I am still waiting for the big talk we are in MC and have addressed many issues just not any one that really bothers me yet. Thank you for being here.


----------



## margrace

B1 said:


> Margrace, glad you got your answers. But, as you are discovering, that doesn't equal healed and doesn't mean it's all better. In a way your journey is just beginning.
> 
> Now you have to deal with something new, the details, they hurt margrace, god do they hurt. It does feel likes its happening now, I know what you mean.
> 
> We have to learn this happened then and it's not happening now. This is, in a way, old news, even though its new news to you.
> 
> I myself have had a rough day today, it's still a struggle sometimes. Those details get me even today. Your not going slow, your moving at your pace, like CSS said this isn't a race. Your husband is a lucky man though that you have the patience you do.
> 
> Yes, you do want to say sometimes how could you. That's so common. In my case I know that answer, hopefully you do too. That helps. It's not an excuse but to know how and why does help.
> 
> Yes you may feel like your going uphill but this ok, your moving forward and that's what really counts.
> 
> It really sounds like your husband is invested in this now, for that I am so happy for you. For getting the details I'm sorry margrace, it hurts, I know. It's going to hurt for a while too. It's just part of it all. It's part of R.
> 
> In a way when we decided to R, this is what we signed up for. It's what we committed to.
> 
> In this pain though there is definitely joy and happiness too. There is a new closeness, a lot of new things to be had. There is a newness unlike anything I have experienced before. It comes with a price though but one I am willing to pay. And it gets cheaper with time
> 
> Your doing this margrace, just keep putting one foot in front of the other.


i'm right there with you now, B1, sendibg you a hug, sending love to you & EI


----------



## calvin

Well I helped CSS with the house while she was gone,now its time for baconcheeseburgers,brats,greenbeans and cheesy taters.
Better get it in gear.
I like to cook but I love cooking with CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Isn't knowing the details however painful better than what ever is going on in your imagination?


----------



## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> Isn't knowing the details however painful better than what ever is going on in your imagination?


For me,always.Or my mind would run wild.I wanted the truth and as much as it hurt,I'm glad I have it.
Honesty is important if you are in R and your spouse is serious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

jupiter13 said:


> Isn't knowing the details however painful better than what ever is going on in your imagination?


Yes!!


----------



## CantSitStill

B1 I am so glad you created this thread, who knew it would be a safe place to come and speak the truth without people like well I won't mention names to bash people? It's nice to have this mixture of BS' and WS' to come and ask advice and get treated respectfully  Shoot I think Calvin and I talk more over here than on our own thread because we always get good advice here  Calvin's cooking our burgers, I have the scalloped potatoes in the oven, time to start the greenbeans!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

CantSitStill said:


> B1 I am so glad you created this thread, who knew it would be a safe place to come and speak the truth......


:iagree:


----------



## Acabado

margrace, I'm happy to hear things are getting better and better.
I can read something like inner peace.


----------



## B1

CantSitStill said:


> B1 I am so glad you created this thread, who knew it would be a safe place to come and speak the truth without people like well I won't mention names to bash people? It's nice to have this mixture of BS' and WS' to come and ask advice and get treated respectfully  Shoot I think Calvin and I talk more over here than on our own thread because we always get good advice here  Calvin's cooking our burgers, I have the scalloped potatoes in the oven, time to start the greenbeans!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you CSS. This thread wouldn't be anything without all the wonderful people that post and share their stories here. The people, like yourself, make it what it is. Thank you for being a part of it 

Man burgers sure do sound good right now....I'm hungry.


----------



## CantSitStill

btw the food was real good and all day I have felt happy..doesn't happen too often but I cherish the good days 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Arrgggh - trigger alert.

Was reading some funny autocorrects and came across one which referenced a first date and was meant to be a gushy message from the man to the girl.

Then my stupid brain went off on a journey thinking of all the gushy texts my husband might have sent to his OW, wondering how many times he stood in the kitchen telling her that he loved her when I was waiting for him to come back to me with a cup of coffee ten feet away.

It's like EVERYTHING is a trigger! I hate this


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone,
Hubby and I have a 2 week break form school for Easter so I have decided to take a little break form posting just to concentrate on us for the holidays.
I just want you all to know that I'm thinking of you all and hope you all have a good Easter break.
Easter is a time to think about new beginnings. Something I know that we have all had to think about during R. 
Despite still having some really tough days I'm so glad my new beginning is with my H. We have been given a second chance at out life together and everyday I am grateful for it.
You are all in my thoughts.
DG
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Robsia said:


> Arrgggh - trigger alert.
> 
> Was reading some funny autocorrects and came across one which referenced a first date and was meant to be a gushy message from the man to the girl.
> 
> Then my stupid brain went off on a journey thinking of all the gushy texts my husband might have sent to his OW, wondering how many times he stood in the kitchen telling her that he loved her when I was waiting for him to come back to me with a cup of coffee ten feet away.
> 
> It's like EVERYTHING is a trigger! I hate this


I know Robsia, triggers are awful and frequent at your stage. It seems everything reminds you of it. At 3weeks out It's mainly on your mind ALL the time any way. It's all consuming, try not to let it be.

Then the imagination gets hold of things and makes it all worse, or introduces you to an actual truth, it's just painful. So sorry.

Like everything it gets better with time. This wasn't your fault Robsia, if he was texting her a few feet away from you, it wasn't your fault. You didn't deserve that and at the time you trusted him so there was no need to think anything was wrong.


----------



## Robsia

Thank you B1 (I always think of Bananas in Pyjamas when I read your username).

It's not so much that I think it's my fault, more of "How could he?" How could he go from sending her lovey texts then come and sit back next to me so easily without showing any signs? Then go upstairs and make love with me, or, more usually, claim to be tired or 'not in the mood' or pick a fight so we didn't have to.


----------



## calvin

Yes it sucks Rosbia,CSS would wait til I went to bed then text and fb the POS,when I ordered copies of my cell bill there were 7000 text and calls inone month,it broke my heart.
Even worse I had to sleep upstairs for two months,kicked out of my bed and sleeping in the spare room while they exchanged I love yous.
You're really early in,as long as your H is honest and seriouse in repairing the damage things will get better.
Fourteen months out and it still hurts but its a lot better than it was.
Hold on tight,you'll be ok,it might not seem like it right now but you will be ok.
Sorry you have to go through this,it was the most painful experience of my life.
You WILL get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Thank you Calvin - the support of this place means so much. I don't know what I would have do, or what I would do without it. And yet it breaks my heart to see new members come on every day with the same story. How can people be so cruel and unthinking to their partners?

I have suggested to my H that he join. I've told him there is support for both parties. He's not much of a one for internet forums, so he probably won't. That's why I've given him the Not Just friends book to read first, as I'm getting so much support and info from here, and he isn't, so he needs to get as much as he can out of the book first, before I read it.

But maybe one day he will join.


----------



## calvin

Yeah I tried to get CSS to join when I knew something was up,she read a little but I guess it made her feel guilty,not guilty enough to stop the A though.
I've asked that question thousands of times,how could anyone hurt someone so bad?
I can't find an answer except that she was out of her mind at the time,no one sane would do this to someone.
I hope you're H will join,it opened up CSS's eyes to what she did and the hurt she caused.
I know she'd take it all back if she could but what's done is done.
I still think about the A every day but it has lost a lot of its power over me.
Sometimes it just won't leave my head,having the POS call and text me a few times a week for a year did a number on me but I did one hell of a number on what little life he had.
CSS thought it was love,she knows now it wasn't,she knows he was out to move in and break up another family.
I hope you're H does join,as a WS he can learn so much from the people here and it will make your R go a lot smoother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

Acabado said:


> margrace, I'm happy to hear things are getting better and better.
> I can read something like inner peace.


thank you acabado -- and thank you, everyone, for chiming in.

it's a very mixed thing. it does feel more real but omg, have we had drama in the past 48 hours or so 

in the course of checking everything out, i discovered that WH had called OW a couple of weeks ago. i confronted him with this, and he said that that was because she has owed him money since the last time he saw her in 2012, and she had left town without repaying it (not a small sum). the story was, as he has become more angry at himself and her and the whole thing, he also became angry about having this money essentially stolen from him/us, so he had called her to say, i want my money back. she had told him, i don't have it.

i said, okay, if that's what this is about, then call her right now and ask her that. i handed him his phone. 

well, he did it... and something came over me, y'all. i said, give me the phone (no, this is not a dream that i had.)

she seemed stunned to be speaking to me and she waffled about the money but sort of indicated that she would repay it when she had it and that she had not seen him since the same date that he mentioned. among the other crazy things that were said, she told me that she had never talked to someone's wife like this before (!) and that she had never thought about me when she had been with WH. she said, will you call me back sometime so that we can talk about what happened? (right, that's _exactly_ what i want to do -- let you explain yourself so that you can feel better.)

of course WH and i have been talking about this nonstop since it happened. WH recognizes that i doubt every single word that comes out of his mouth and will continue to do so. i have been feeling just everything you can imagine all at the same time. at one point, i called the MC and said, i'm not coming back, i'm done. the MC kind of talked me down and gave me the reasons that he tends to believe WH.

needless to say, WH should have talked to me about giving her the money. okay, yes, i would have been furious -- but _still_. 

so this is on the agenda for MC on monday -- and as of now, i plan to keep the appointment.


----------



## B1

Margrace, Wow, what a roller coaster ride you have been on the last day or two. He talked to her just two weeks ago, that hurts. Hope he knows and understands now that's a boundary he cannot cross ever again, money or no money.

Your mind must be going crazy replaying this stuff over and over....I know mine would. 

Please do keep your appt. don't stop going to mc counseling now.


----------



## margrace

B1 said:


> Your mind must be going crazy replaying this stuff over and over....I know mine would.


yes, you nailed it! my mind IS going crazy replaying it, debating it, hating it, analyzing it, replaying it again....


----------



## Acabado

Sorry margrace. What a set back.
Breaking NC is simply unacceptable. For any "reason". Unacceptable.
Once again he put himself over you, over the marriage.
He found acceptable disrespect you once again, hurt you again by bringing OW back into your lives.


> of course WH and i have been talking about this nonstop since it happened. WH recognizes that i doubt every single word that comes out of his mouth and will continue to do so


It goes beyond the fact you don't trust his motives wich you naturaly dont. Breaking contact put the marriage/R again back to square 1. Again he chose to behave with disdain for your feelings, chose to ignore how this could impact you, his family.
Anger for the money loss is as unacceptable as any other "reason". If he want the money wasted/spent in this affair back to where it belongs (by the way it's an easy" way to make amends. Way easier than reparing the emotional damage and regaining the trust) he can sell his belongings, work more, be frugal... whatever. 
It also shine light to the fact he's still not owning his stuff, he's blameshiftng. He freely gave the family money to that woman. Noone more to blame. If he were responsible back and his had his personal boundaries intact then no money were spent on any woman. She didn't trick him, use him. He used her as much. Own your stuff already. Be a grown up, a man.

There's no acceptable reason to break the NC rule. Period. I'd focus at MC in this fact, instead of arguing about his motivations wich while important is another issue altogether. He's not acting as a team, he put his emotions over the marriage. He's still very selfish and irresponsible. He's gambling and he can lose.
NC = No new hurts.


----------



## margrace

Acabado said:


> Sorry margrace. What a set back.
> Breaking NC is simply unacceptable. For any "reason". Unacceptable.
> Once again he put himself over you, over the marriage.
> He found acceptable disrespect you once again, hurt you again by bringing OW back into your lives.It goes beyond the fact you don't trust his motives wich you naturaly dont. Breaking contact put the marriage/R again back to square 1. Again he chose to behave with disdain for your feelings, chose to ignore how this could impact you, his family.
> Anger for the money loss is as unacceptable as any other "reason". If he want the money wasted/spent in this affair back to where it belongs (by the way it's an easy" way to make amends. Way easier than reparing the emotional damage and regaining the trust) he can sell his belongings, work more, be frugal... whatever.
> It also shine light to the fact he's still not owning his stuff, he's blameshiftng. He freely gave the family money to that woman. Noone more to blame. If he were responsible back and his had his personal boundaries intact then no money were spent on any woman. She didn't trick him, use him. He used her as much. Own your stuff already. Be a grown up, a man.
> 
> There's no acceptable reason to break the NC rule. Period. I'd focus at MC in this fact, instead of arguing about his motivations wich while important is another issue altogether. He's not acting as a team, he put his emotions over the marriage. He's still very selfish and irresponsible. He's gambling and he can lose.
> NC = No new hurts.


you are 100% right


----------



## calvin

Not enough money in the world to break NC,don't care if I never had to work again.
Its not worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I was a little down this morning but I'm feeling good,CSS justs looks so pretty today,I guess because she is!
Good day,two in a row! Shooting for three.
I have a wife who is more attentive to my needs,feelings and she really does care about me,I'm climbing out of the hole I'm still in.
I swear I see daylight.
Its all going to be good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Oh, margrace, my heart goes out to you. I can't even imagine. I'm with others -there is NO amount of money -or no reason in general -worth breaking NC. 

Big hugs to you. I know this is a huge blow. We are here for you.


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> I was a little down this morning but I'm feeling good,CSS justs looks so pretty today,I guess because she is!
> Good day,two in a row! Shooting for three.
> I have a wife who is more attentive to my needs,feelings and she really does care about me,I'm climbing out of the hole I'm still in.
> I swear I see daylight.
> Its all going to be good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honey I kinda thought some things said here would trigger you and I"m sorry. I love you so much  It's a nice day for a walk 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

margrace - so sorry to hear about this setback. You deserve so much better.









When you go to MC I hope you can keep firmly to the concept of NC ...the money is just a distraction. As Calvin said .... NO amount of money is worth breaking NC and he needs to see that through your eyes. 

Stay strong x


----------



## margrace

Acabado said:


> Sorry margrace. What a set back.
> Breaking NC is simply unacceptable. For any "reason". Unacceptable.
> Once again he put himself over you, over the marriage.
> He found acceptable disrespect you once again, hurt you again by bringing OW back into your lives.It goes beyond the fact you don't trust his motives wich you naturaly dont. Breaking contact put the marriage/R again back to square 1. Again he chose to behave with disdain for your feelings, chose to ignore how this could impact you, his family.
> Anger for the money loss is as unacceptable as any other "reason". If he want the money wasted/spent in this affair back to where it belongs (by the way it's an easy" way to make amends. Way easier than reparing the emotional damage and regaining the trust) he can sell his belongings, work more, be frugal... whatever.
> It also shine light to the fact he's still not owning his stuff, he's blameshiftng. He freely gave the family money to that woman. Noone more to blame. If he were responsible back and his had his personal boundaries intact then no money were spent on any woman. She didn't trick him, use him. He used her as much. Own your stuff already. Be a grown up, a man.
> 
> There's no acceptable reason to break the NC rule. Period. I'd focus at MC in this fact, instead of arguing about his motivations wich while important is another issue altogether. He's not acting as a team, he put his emotions over the marriage. He's still very selfish and irresponsible. He's gambling and he can lose.
> NC = No new hurts.


thank you acabado.

i have been thinking about your post, and it helped me realize why this has bothered me so much, why i was feeling so hurt and so set back.

i asked my H to read it when we were speaking today.... he did so willingly, and after he read it, you know what he said? he said, that's right. i did put my own feelings ahead of the marriage and you. and it was like cheating on you again.

so.... something that was really painful for me has turned out to be an opportunity to see how genuinely hard he is working on this with me.

MC is still not going to be easy on monday BUT i feel so appreciative of where we are together and where i think/hope we are going.

he is sitting with me now as i write this.

thanks again XXX mg


----------



## hopefulgirl

Things are on an upswing after being in the pits.

R is NOT for the faint of heart! 

My WS apologized for the "mean" things he said to me. He admits that he has been "self-medicating" with his hobbies, that it's been hard for him to face the repeated questions - not the ones I ask him for the first time, but when I cover the same ground he says it's particularly hard on him for some reason.

He also said he's going to put his credit cards in a drawer until he's paid them off, so he realizes that he went overboard and needs to get a handle on this.

I apologized again for the way I used what I found online about his purchase - I "trapped" him. By asking him where he went earlier that day and his leaving out that stop at Best Buy, I set him up for a "gotcha." I told him I truly hoped he'd tell me he went there and bought another hobby thing, because that would have told me that things were more transparent than they were in the "old" marriage, and that even though it's a difficult subject, I could then have expressed my concern about how much he's spent this month on hobbies.

But that's not how it went.  We had the BIG blow up. 

I said it's no excuse, but I haven't been thinking clearly lately. He said, "that's because of what I did, and I'm sorry."

He told me today he wanted his best friend back, and he wanted the love of his life back. I told him I wanted MY best friend and the love of my life, too.


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## CantSitStill

hopefulgirl said:


> Things are on an upswing after being in the pits.
> 
> R is NOT for the faint of heart!
> 
> My WS apologized for the "mean" things he said to me. He admits that he has been "self-medicating" with his hobbies, that it's been hard for him to face the repeated questions - not the ones I ask him for the first time, but when I cover the same ground he says it's particularly hard on him for some reason.
> 
> He also said he's going to put his credit cards in a drawer until he's paid them off, so he realizes that he went overboard and needs to get a handle on this.
> 
> I apologized again for the way I used what I found online about his purchase - I "trapped" him. By asking him where he went earlier that day and his leaving out that stop at Best Buy, I set him up for a "gotcha." I told him I truly hoped he'd tell me he went there and bought another hobby thing, because that would have told me that things were more transparent than they were in the "old" marriage, and that even though it's a difficult subject, I could then have expressed my concern about how much he's spent this month on hobbies.
> 
> But that's not how it went.  We had the BIG blow up.
> 
> I said it's no excuse, but I haven't been thinking clearly lately. He said, "that's because of what I did, and I'm sorry."
> 
> He told me today he wanted his best friend back, and he wanted the love of his life back. I told him I wanted MY best friend and the love of my life, too.


I'm kinda confused as to why he didn't just tell you he went to best buy..I have found that calvin feels better knowing every little thing I do so I always text and tell him what I'm doing. It also makes us so much closer  hope your counselling goes well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Soooo, my birthday is tomorrow and I went and actually bought myself some stuff.....I rarely buy anything for me, always the kids. Joe also got me this cool gaming thing that I can play Dr Mario on.....lol I also got a really sweet card, flowers and a box of dark chocolates. 

TBH, a few things I bought for me today are kinda for Joe......


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## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Soooo, my birthday is tomorrow and I went and actually bought myself some stuff.....I rarely buy anything for me, always the kids. Joe also got me this cool gaming thing that I can play Dr Mario on.....lol I also got a really sweet card, flowers and a box of dark chocolates.
> 
> TBH, a few things I bought for me today are kinda for Joe......


Happy B Day pidge!
Good news from you both,CSS bought me a few things on her birthday also.
She made me wear a dress and makeup......sigh,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

pidge70 said:


> Soooo, my birthday is tomorrow and I went and actually bought myself some stuff.....I rarely buy anything for me, always the kids. Joe also got me this cool gaming thing that I can play Dr Mario on.....lol I also got a really sweet card, flowers and a box of dark chocolates.
> 
> TBH, a few things I bought for me today are kinda for Joe......


Happy birthday! And great news! Why do you only post the bad stuff?
:smthumbup:


----------



## Acabado

calvin said:


> She made me wear a dress and makeup......sigh,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What?
What?

I mean what?


----------



## calvin

Acabado said:


> What?
> What?
> 
> I mean what?


I don't want to talk about the nylons. :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

pidge70 said:


> Soooo, my birthday is tomorrow and I went and actually bought myself some stuff.....I rarely buy anything for me, always the kids. Joe also got me this cool gaming thing that I can play Dr Mario on.....lol I also got a really sweet card, flowers and a box of dark chocolates.
> 
> TBH, a few things I bought for me today are kinda for Joe......


Happy birthday for tomorrow, Pidge!:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

Acabado said:


> What?
> What?
> 
> I mean what?


No big deal! I mean... really! http://ego.globo.com/Entretenimento/Ego/foto/0,,12133369-EX,00.jpg


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Margrace
> thank you acabado.
> 
> i have been thinking about your post, and it helped me realize why this has bothered me so much, why i was feeling so hurt and so set back.
> 
> i asked my H to read it when we were speaking today.... he did so willingly, and after he read it, you know what he said? he said, that's right. i did put my own feelings ahead of the marriage and you. and it was like cheating on you again.
> 
> so.... something that was really painful for me has turned out to be an opportunity to see how genuinely hard he is working on this with me.
> 
> MC is still not going to be easy on monday BUT i feel so appreciative of where we are together and where i think/hope we are going.
> 
> he is sitting with me now as i write this.
> 
> thanks again XXX mg


First, 
yes Acabado nailed it!!! 
Way to go Acabado!

Second, 
your husband took it like a man and said the right things. Now he needs to show you with actions that he will not do that again for the next 80 years. After the 80 years he can then decide if he wants to act like a fool again.

Third: 
I hope that Margrace is not hurt financially

Fourth:	
I am glad that the OW did not pay him. I also hope that she gave him lice!
*Maybe he will finally realize that her involvement with him was completely selfish and had nothing to do with her admiration for him*. When life gets real and tough the OW will prove that she really did not give a a damm about him. I hope your husband sees what a weak minded dunce he was. 


> so.... something that was really painful for me has turned out to be an opportunity to see how genuinely hard he is working on this with me.


Even though I called your husband a weak minded dunce I am really glad that he is stepping up to the plate and being a man now. Mr. Margrace, hope you realize that no one gives a shyt about you except your wife Margrace. *You have a good woman and you can be her good man so keep up the hard work; we are all pulling for you two!*


----------



## CantSitStill

Yay Pidge! It feels good to go out and get things for yourself for a change, doesn't it? It's a rarity for me also. The best gift Calvin gave me one year was $200 and insisted I head out to Khols and not buy a thing for anyone but me  Have a happy birthday  How old are ya? jk
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

If Calvin ever dressed like a woman I'd have a heart attack omg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Not to brag but Calvin is a muscular man, very manly looking ewww akkk can't imagine LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Happy Birthday Pidge:smthumbup::


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> Not to brag but Calvin is a muscular man, very manly looking ewww akkk can't imagine LOL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sortta like dis, hah? http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrh4oiOdGT1qepg91o1_500.jpg


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Sortta like dis, hah? http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrh4oiOdGT1qepg91o1_500.jpg


Not as hairy but I am of Scottish decent so maybe that's why I like to wear dresses.
Kilts are alright.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

pidge70 said:


> Soooo, my birthday is tomorrow and I went and actually bought myself some stuff.....I rarely buy anything for me, always the kids. Joe also got me this cool gaming thing that I can play Dr Mario on.....lol I also got a really sweet card, flowers and a box of dark chocolates.
> 
> TBH, a few things I bought for me today are kinda for Joe......


Good for you pidge....good for you and happy early birthday to you.


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> Not as hairy but I am of Scottish decent so maybe that's why I like to wear dresses.
> Kilts are alright.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my goodness! Who are you? And what did you do with my husband??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Oh my goodness! Who are you? And what did you do with my husband??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just goofing off a little,I'm in a decent mood
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Hey Reconcilers,

I always feel bad when I haven't had the time to get on and respond to everyone. I've been crazy busy for a couple of weeks getting ready for Easter. Hopefully, on Monday, life will start to look a little more normal..... whatever that's supposed to look like these days. 

I wanted wish everyone a Happy Easter... and, if you don't celebrate Easter then just have a great day with the ones you love! 

*PIDGE...... HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU.... HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR PIDGE..... HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU.........!!!!!!!!!! *

I agree with Acabado, you usually only post the bad stuff and it's really nice to hear the good stuff, too! You have a very loving, giving side, caring side, Pidge, and you don't often let it show on the threads, but every once in a while it's obvious that behind the BPD and behind the former WS..... there is an amazing woman who cares deeply for her family and others. After talking to you that day on the phone I was more sure of that than ever. I hope you have a great birthday tomorrow! 

This post is probably going to be all over the place.......

*Margrace,* like I said in the pm that I sent to you, this is the hard work of reconciliation. That's why everyone attempting "R" says that reconciliation is "hard work" and not "great fun." I know it kinda bites that you, as the BS, have to do any hard work at all. But, unfortunately, I think that in order to have a truly happy, successful reconciliation it takes every bit of effort that both spouses can put into it and then some. I think that you and your husband just might be getting on the right track now. No, he did not handle the situation over the money well, but he may have actually been concerned over the amount of money and felt somewhat panicked over what to do. I read on another thread where a WS was saying "You know, we don't get a manual on how to fix this.... that's why we're here." Unfortunately, I could relate.....  

*Calvin and CSS*,..... I am so disappointed that your trip got cancelled this weekend. We were so looking forward to meeting you guys.

So many of you have posted and I wouldn't know where to begin catching up... so I will try to get caught up next week. But, I did want to share a couple things in the B1 and EI household. As I have said many times in the past, B1 and I have often had our best days and our worst days all in the same day. We have had all kinds of ups and downs this week. I have been super busy and because of that, I think that B1 may have been feeling a little neglected. I don't even know if he realizes that, but I have noticed that the busier I am, and the less time I have to spend with him, the more anxious he becomes. I been very tuned into his needs and his emotions in the last several months... so when I am not as attentive I think he feels a little insecure... (this is a huge role reversal for the two of us.) It's something that I need to be aware of and make sure that even when I am busy that I make time to spend with him...... which I love doing, anyway. 

So, I've been cooking and cleaning all day for our Easter dinner tomorrow with all of the in-laws. Tonight I was starting to feel a bit overwhelmed and rushed (happens every time) and I was in the bedroom putting clean sheets on the bed. I heard a sound that I couldn't quite make out and ran into the kitchen in the panic thinking that my green beans had boiled dry and were burning. It turned out that the sound was the shower running and B1 was giving our special needs son his shower tonight so that I didn't have to do it tomorrow. That was such a huge burden that he took on for me and it meant so much to me that I could have cried. Before you guys start thinking that that was so Beta of him.... well, he wasn't finished, yet. Then, I started to make the baked beans... only to realize that I have bought every ingredient for them except the beans.... so, at 9:00 p.m., B1 heads back out to the grocery for his 2nd last minute trip of the day for things that I had forgotten at the grocery...... So many threads talk about Alpha/Beta.... men shouldn't help women at home.... women won't respect them..... blah, blah, blah..... I think I might speak for many women when I say that it is a combination of Alpha/Beta characteristics that make a man the most desirable. Maybe giving our s/n son his shower and making two trips to the grocery to pick up things that I had forgotten was Beta..... But, he had already done an amazing job showing me his Alpha side earlier this morning...... that's why I was putting clean sheets on the bed when he was giving our son a shower.  I don't know.... it was just a day in the life of two people reconciling a marriage.... We've been married almost 29 years and together for 32. I love him more today than I have ever loved him in my life. Loving him and being loved by him is such a beautiful gift. 

Happy Easter!

Take care,
~EI


I love that man...... I really, really do............... 

I said this post was going to be all over the place!


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh I do not find that Beta! When I got home from the grocery store yesterday Calvin had cleaned the house for me..Not Beta, it's called love..The things we do for eachother to make our lives easier is what makes it so special. Don't over analyze. Be happy  Wishing you a very happy Easter EI 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Today is a trigger day getting ready for tomorrows Easter Egg hunt with memories flashing through my mind. Our first Easter Egg Hunt with our grand-daughter then flashes to the last Easter while he was involved with those people. The crying just never stops. It also feels like my mind is saying good-by to those memories even if they were good ones. I can't help thinking I am detaching somehow becoming colder? Immune? Very strange feelings.


----------



## jh52

Happy Easter B1 and EI and to all those that celebrate Easter and post on this thread.


----------



## EI

*Happy Easter sweet friends!!!!*


----------



## B1

Happy Easter all, some lyrics from one of my favorite songs....

Amazing love, how can it be?
That you, my king. would die for me
Amazing love, I know it's true
Its my joy to honor you
Amazing love how can it be?
That my king would die for me
Amazing love I know it's true
Its my joy to honor you
In all I do
I honor you
-Chris Tomlin


----------



## Robsia

Had a conversation with WH last night.

Situation is that I know he had one physical affair with an OW. I also know that he was on a dating site and that he met 3-4 others. He swears there was no sex, just meeting each of them once for coffee. Some were before he met OW, some after. He says there was no connection with any of them, he was just exploring his options, but he didn't want to see any of them again - it was just an initial coffee date to see if they liked each other.

I want very much to believe him. But every time he tells me this, I just remember the ease with which he lied to me before.

So I ask him about these dates frequently. I explain about the necessity of needing 100% disclosure, and that if he is with-holding information in order 'not to hurt me' then that is actually detrimental to our recovery in the long run. I need to know exactly what happened so we can move on. I even told him there is probably little he can tell me at this point that would alter our course to R - I just need to know.

So he's sitting on the edge of the bed, not saying anything. I stop talking and give him space to answer to either reassure me that there is nothing to tell, or to fess up. After a while he says "I can't do this now."

I pick up on this and say "So there is something to 'do' then?" 

He backtracks and says no, just that he is tired. We lie in bed for a while and I ask him if it bothers him that I ask questions. He says, only when I ask the same questions over and over again and that I don't seem to believe him. Then he says that he does understand why I don't believe him, but that it's hard.

One thing I did manage to get out of him was the approximate date of the final date before D-day - he says it was last month - so February sometime.

And yet, he suggested we go away and have a night in a hotel for Valentine's Day. That was a total disaster - we ended up having a major row - one of the worst we've ever had. I asked him why he suggested that if he had already turned his back on our marriage and was seeing other women?

He said he didn't know. He said he wasn't really thinking of anything but himself at that time. That at least is true.

I don't know if I will ever know the full truth. In his head, he has every reason not to tell me, and none to tell me. He could be telling the truth, that the others were just coffee dates. Or he could be lying. I don't know.

Question is, if he continues to deny anything other happened, can I cope with never knowing for sure?


----------



## pidge70

Thank you everyone for the birthday wishes! Easter baskets are made up and waiting for people to wake up....lol I suppose since I am the only one up I can finish the laundry....whoo hoo!


----------



## B1

Robsia, first thing he needs to understand is that what you are doing is completely normal, asking questions, and asking them again and again. Yes it will get old to him but your not abnormal, this is normal behavior from someone who had been traumatized like you have been.

Tell him about this site, that other BS's asked all the same questions and we asked them over and over too. If he was capable of doing something so awful then he should be able to handle some questions.

They are helping you, it's his responsibility now to do that, to help you.
Now, granted we can wear a ws out with questions so giving them a break sometimes is ok and understandable. 

I remember EI would get wore out at times, mentally exhausted, but she answered me. Sometimes she would ask for a break and we would take one. But it was usually after hours of grueling talks. In the first months after Dday we talked for hours EVERY day.

Now, we also talked about the overall marriage pre-a, we also covered things I did, she did, the condition of our marriage, we covered a lot of ground we should have covered long ago. It wasn't all one sided, now granted it was mostly about me, but not all about me.

Summing all this up, your doing what every BS does, trying to wrap your head around it and trying to put the puzzle together. A puzzle he sees clearly and should help you see too. 

As far as believing him, I am 50/50 on it, it sounds reasonable to think they were coffee dates, but I think it will haunt you for a while and you may never know, can you live with that. At some point we all have to just believe and trust in what our ws tells us. We have to accept what they tell us as truth and move forward, this can be a tough thing to do. For now, keep asking, maybe get a timeline, get some details of the coffee dates, when were they and where were you, this info could help you.

The more info you get the easier it will be to believe him.


----------



## Robsia

One thing that is bothering me is that he is struggling to remember specifics. Or at least he says he is. He says that "I know" he has a terrible memory and that he can't remember details. This is true, he always has had a bad memory. We can have a conversation and remember it differently half an hour later.

But I can't help wondering if this terrible memory isn't also awfully convenient. I've pinned him down to places for two of the coffee dates. He is on the road a lot for his job and they were on the way home after jobs.

But I can't help but wonder if "I can't remember" really means "I don't want to tell you."


----------



## calvin

Happy Easter everyone.
Rosbia there were somethings CSS couldn't remember,she can't remember some of the things she said to me.
Sometimes things would come back to her and she would fill me in,like when POS got upset that she would lose the house.
She only told me this a couple months ago.
As for asking the same question over and over,B1 is right,is normal.
I wanted to see if anything changed in her answer,I still ask sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Robsia said:


> One thing that is bothering me is that he is struggling to remember specifics. Or at least he says he is. He says that "I know" he has a terrible memory and that he can't remember details. This is true, he always has had a bad memory. We can have a conversation and remember it differently half an hour later.
> 
> But I can't help wondering if this terrible memory isn't also awfully convenient. I've pinned him down to places for two of the coffee dates. He is on the road a lot for his job and they were on the way home after jobs.
> 
> But I can't help but wonder if "I can't remember" really means "I don't want to tell you."


It's tough Robsia, wondering, questioning everything he says. You just want to know it all and know it all now. You want to believe so bad that what your hearing is truth. But, with what he did that's just tough do do.

What about the web site where he was meeting these women, does it have anything you could use? Are there chat logs or an email trail? There has to be a trail of some kind....phone records??


----------



## MattMatt

The memory thing? He might have blocked it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GJfromCAN

A very Happy Easter to all of you on the Reconciliation thread!

I haven't been following all of your situations recently (haven't been in a reconciliationy frame of mind but working on it  ) but I wish you all the very best!


----------



## hopefulgirl

Again, Robsia, I feel we are in the same place!!

My WS has SO much trouble with the REPEAT questions! Not as troubled by new ones.

And the memory - my WS says he has forgotten some things. Some of my re-asking is obsessive, which is a normal reaction to being traumatized. But some of it is the hope that touching on something around a certain topic will jog his memory about it. 

In one case, he DID come up with something he'd forgotten about the first time with the OW, and it really helped explain why I didn't wonder about his absence (I expected him to be busy with a work-related thing, in a do-not-disturb-until-he-calls situation!).

MY memory isn't the best (never has been), so I'm inclined to believe him about the forgetting. I've tried to remember some guys I dated (granted, it was years ago) and I've really had trouble remembering much about them or where I went with them. Maybe *I* didn't want to remember those bad choices, either! 

I also understand the idea of blocking out exceptionally unpleasant stuff - he says he was truly feeling guilt from their first sexual encounter, and started lying to her (even more than he had been already) about his availability because he wanted to start backing out of this thing. (He didn't END it then though - apparently, he was pulled in two directions, wanting to end it but difficult to turn down the wild sex - their meetings were few and spread out over a couple months.)

Before this ever happened, we COULD trust them when they told us something, and then we could drop it. So sad that we have these nagging doubts now. It's so fresh for us now (2 months since D-Day for me), our world is still pretty upside down and maybe we should follow Shirley Glass' advice (from Not Just Friends):

"During this period of instability, you both need to limit damaging interactions that could negatively affect your ability to reconcile." Re-asking might be best left for a few weeks from now, when things have simmered down some. You might want to write down the questions you KNOW you will need to get back to and save them, and just ask new, less volatile ones for now. (If you can remember what you've already asked - my brain is so fuzzy, I'm not always sure what I've asked!!)


----------



## CantSitStill

I cannot remember things, I just can't but yeah sometimes something will come up that will remind me of something and I'll tell calvin right away. I don't remember details of anything ever really. Not just talking about the EA but shoot I do not even remember what shirt I wore yesterday. Anyway Happy Easter everyone 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

btw this one person is at it again with picking on me and I'm afraid I may get banned soon..just warning you guys. I tried to PM a mod but their PM box must be full. It was just a request for them to tell that person to leave me alone..oh well I tried. Sorry if I do land up banned : (
He has done this to me on 3 different threads now!
Oh and also was PMing calvin telling him I'm a liar! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

CantSitStill said:


> btw this one person is at it again with picking on me and I'm afraid I may get banned soon..just warning you guys. I tried to PM a mod but their PM box must be full. It was just a request for them to tell that person to leave me alone..oh well I tried. Sorry if I do land up banned : (
> He has done this to me on 3 different threads now!
> Oh and also was PMing calvin telling him I'm a liar!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope it gets taken care of CSS!

:wtf:


:banhim:


----------



## Decorum

The Lord is Risen!

Happy easter to those who observe!


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## CantSitStill

Decorum said:


> The Lord is Risen!
> 
> Happy easter to those who observe!


YES! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

CantSitStill said:


> btw this one person is at it again with picking on me and I'm afraid I may get banned soon..just warning you guys. I tried to PM a mod but their PM box must be full. It was just a request for them to tell that person to leave me alone..oh well I tried. Sorry if I do land up banned : (
> He has done this to me on 3 different threads now!
> Oh and also was PMing calvin telling him I'm a liar!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The ignore feature is great in those situations.


----------



## Acabado

Robsia said:


> And yet, he suggested we go away and have a night in a hotel for Valentine's Day. That was a total disaster - we ended up having a major row - one of the worst we've ever had. I asked him why he suggested that if he had already turned his back on our marriage and was seeing other women?
> 
> He said he didn't know. He said he wasn't really thinking of anything but himself at that time. That at least is true.


It's sadly true. He needs to get over himself and start looking at it more closely on how he decided this path was something acceptable. Is this a "once in life" event, a pattern? He has to face the mirror, be brutaly honest with himself and radicaly honest with you giving up complettely damage control (manipulation).
If you believe there's more to confess and he's full on deny, deny, deny snooping and digging yourself for the info is your only chance. Well maybe you can try the Joseph letter but sadly, even we "know" there's more nothing can be done about it unless he renounce to control outcomes.


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## Robsia

I looked up the Joseph letter.

That only works if we assume that he is lying.

If he is telling the truth, then it is useless. He has no problem giving me the details about the affair with the OW, those that he can remember. He fully admits what happened there.

It's the others that I am unsure about. Either he is telling the truth and they were simply coffee dates, or he is lying and they weren't.

I have no way of knowing.

Maybe this is just something I have to come to terms with.


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## larry.gray

CantSitStill said:


> btw this one person is at it again with picking on me and I'm afraid I may get banned soon..just warning you guys. I tried to PM a mod but their PM box must be full. It was just a request for them to tell that person to leave me alone..oh well I tried. Sorry if I do land up banned : (
> He has done this to me on 3 different threads now!
> Oh and also was PMing calvin telling him I'm a liar!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Try both Amp and Deejo.

Talk About Marriage - View Profile: Amplexor

Talk About Marriage - View Profile: Deejo


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## calvin

Thanks larry,it has been taken care of.
827Aug took care of it.
Thank you 827.
We appreciate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

I decided to wait til Easter to "rise" again. LOL

On a serious note, I have a few things to say. This thread is probably the one where anyone, WS or BS can come and get advice without snark or down talk. I don't think that's just a function of those of us that post here, I simply think people respect what is going on here. We have the occassional "mean" commentary, but it is far and few in between - which is just what those of us attempting to Reconcile need.

Facebook, Twitter, and other social media outlets have devolved to a point where people think that THEIR opinion is the only one and if you oppose it, then you are wrong. That attitude is easily brought into any forum. NASCAR, football, hockey...you name it, I can tell you that back in BBS boards, it wasn't as bad as it is now with the attitudes and feelings of entitlement.

I admit to being one of those guys who doesn't stand for bullying in any way, shape or form. I don't like mob mentality when it is unduly spewed out at people who come looking for help. It is not only frustrating...it is saddening.

Nothing ~ NOTHING is a set color palette. Shades of colors create the world, yet some will only see the colors they choose and then attempt to blanket the world with their color only. When responses to a WS or a BS are nothing more than canned commentary, it doesn't do a damn thing for the ones coming here for help.

Yes. Some people need a 2x4 approach and I'm not opposed to that when the situation demands it. However, when people do nothing but copy/paste most of their comments it is stale and sometimes a newcomer won't have the opportunity to get good advice.

There is no alpha male. There is no beta male or gamma male or any other Greek alphabetical anything. If that is gonna be a canned response to every male that comes on this board suffering with infidelity, then how in the f-ck do we comment to the females? That they weren't _alpha_ enough? Give me a break.

Yes. Some men do need to step it up with themselves. No doubt. However, at one point I was told that I wasn't alpha enough and that's why Regret was able to have a 5 year long affair. I was the captain of a private jet. I have flown through weather that would make anyone with a golden ratio to crawl down the aisle to the lav and puke. And I flew through that because that was my job. At home I take care of the dishes and the trash. Sometimes I mow the lawn. I've ridden motorcycles for over 25 years and been in the motorcycle club life...a life that is male driven, dominated and testosterone driven. I have respect from some heavy 1% clubs in the NY region and that is nothing to be taken lightly.

I am far from anything less than this "alpha" male focal point that is thrown around here, yet...I was told that I wasn't alpha enough.

Nope. It was because _Regret _ wanted to have an affair. It was her choice. Her f'ng decision. It had nothing to do with me. She is the one who chose to lie, betray and deceive me. 

Yet, I was told of this alpha stuff in the early days because that is the canned f'ng response. The canned response that continues to permeate because no one on this board knows me from the pixels I occupy on TAM. So, just assume because my wife had a 5 year long affair there must be something wrong with ME.

Maybe, one day...people will think before pressing a bunch of keys on their keyboard hoping to come up with a snappy reply or a sharpened response and instead put themselves in the OP's situation. Empathize. Don't project.

I can guarantee you that B1 never in a hundred years imagined this thread would become what it has. It has, in my opinion, Transcended anything that any one of us thought it would.

And that. Is Good.

My hope is that everyone in their own way will find peace. Peace for themselves FIRST and hopefully some kind of peace from the wreckage of what we have all had the unfortunate opportunity to be involved in.

I'll not be as active now. For me, TAM has become an albatross for my inner peace. It did so because of my own pathology...because I truly do care and invest myself in the ones that I hoped that I could help. No matter how small. I'll stop in and read at times. I may even post once in a while. However, I will not be as active.

This is Dig's place. Dig has done a ton of work.

Patrick needs some time.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey hope everyone has a great Easter, need a new phone so won't be around for a couple days..well it works when it wants to but anyway..I really hope all of you have a great holiday. Look for something to be grateful for. You all are on my prayer list.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Welcome back Dig,you were missed.
Happy Easter.
B1 wants to know if he can take nude pics of us,I told him I'lltalk to you.
I'm game.
Hope you and Regret are good.
Welcome back.
Sigh...I miss Bandit too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Welcome back Dig, hope to hear ffrom you here and there, you always help when we are struggling 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Dig, I'm very new here but noticed that your posts were some of the most helpful of all. Was quite shocked when YOU were banned. Suspected it was because you stood up to some bullying.

I agree that the internet can be a wonderful resource, and that yes, too many use it to spew their own bitterness and try to spread their own very warped view of the world. Misery loves company. 

Which is not at ALL doing the same thing as people on this thread who have been hurt due to similar circumstances who try to ease the burden by sharing ideas, good books, tips that have helped the ones who are further along in the journey, and warm words of encouragement amongst each other.

Sorry you feel the need to be more absent, but that's understood. Thanks for all your help and support.


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## joe kidd

I can't stand this. I don't want this. F^ck off and leave me alone.


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> I can't stand this. I don't want this. F^ck off and leave me alone.


What's wrong bro?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

You too pidge,you're a a sweetheart who defended me when I got jumped on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Hang in there joe,it will work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Well well welcome back dig. Your right I had no idea this thread would become what it has. I am so glad it has attracted so many wonderful, wise, caring, and helpful people. 

Glad your back dig, I do understand and respect your decision to lay low. Take care my friend and I do hope to see you here from time to time. 

And I just want to say to everyone who frequents this thread and shares their story or posts to help others, thank you!


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## calvin

Its safe here on this thread,my thread scares the hell out of me sometimes.
Thanks B1 and EI.
Some snacks and a coulple beers set out would be nice though.

Happy Easter everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Its safe here on this thread,my thread scares the hell out of me sometimes.
> Thanks B1 and EI.
> Some snacks and a coulple beers set out would be nice though.
> 
> Happy Easter everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here you go....all you had to do was ask


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## calvin

B1 said:


> Here you go....all you had to do was ask


Alrighty then!
Thanks B1.
I want the real thing in a couple weeks!!!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

GREAT DAY!!!

Today is a great day for many. Why is it great?

It is great because it proves that HOPE can be real.

This day also represents that no matter how much you have blown it in your life that you can be RESTORED. 

There really is such a thing as ANOTHER CHANCE given.

It means that you can have the OPPORTINITY to shed the guilt, the shame, the self-loathing and all the rest of the baggage that you have brought on yourself.

This day represents that you can be ACCEPTED no matter what your weight is, what you look like, what you have done, what social standing you have, what grades you got in school, or what others think of you.

This day represents that there is such a thing as REAL TRUE LOVE, not the kind of love that is sometimes portrayed in movies, but a love that is all giving and proves it by taking a huge hit for you so that you can benefit.

This day presents us with something that goes beyond justice; it presents us with a higher standard, which is the higher standard of GRACE. Grace is giving someone something that they do not deserve; grace can even turn revenge into forgiveness.

Although today means so much more than I can write I want to end with
today represents that evil will be defeated in the end. VICTORY will smash the opponents of joy and peace. 

We celebrate today because we know that some day all TEARS WILL BE WIPED AWAY and we will be young again, strong again, healthy again back as when we were children and so appreciated of the innocents and warmth of that little boy or girl that brought us so much joy.

As all of us share on this TAM board with each other maybe we can HELP EACH OTHER get closer to some of the reasons that today is so celebrated.

There is so much pain on this TAM board so let us not forget that pain’s days are numbered and that in the end good is going to win. In fact by OUR CHOICES we can help that win be more obvious. We can show some reflection of His perfection

We celebrate the GREAT GIVER today
I guess that is really all I wanted to say


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I decided to wait til Easter to "rise" again. LOL
> 
> I'll not be as active now. For me, TAM has become an albatross for my inner peace. It did so because of my own pathology...because I truly do care and invest myself in the ones that I hoped that I could help. No matter how small. I'll stop in and read at times. I may even post once in a while. However, I will not be as active.
> 
> This is Dig's place. Dig has done a ton of work.
> 
> Patrick needs some time.


I, for one, feel more than honored that you decided to "rise" again on the "R" thread. Your post was very insightful and I only wish that more individuals embraced your philosophy. And, not simply because I came to this thread as a WS. I embraced that philosophy, myself, even during the first 46 years of my life before I had ever become a WS. The world is made up of shades of gray and life is often unfair. For those who can only see two colors.... black or white, the right way (their way) or the wrong way (anyone who disagrees with them) the world will tend to leave them feeling anxious, angry and bitter. I think we see evidence of that on TAM every day. 

This thread has become bigger than the OP (you know what I mean, B1. ) It has a life of it's own, now. "It" hasn't shown people all the shades of gray..... It has attracted people who understand that there are shades of gray. And, that is the beauty of it! 

I've learned so much from all of you.... BS's and WS's, alike. And, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being a very real and integral part of my reconciliation with B1.... and even with myself.

After posting my initial thread last June looking for some "help" during one of the most confusing and painful times in my life, I was on the receiving end of some extremely harsh criticism... and maybe it was "justified," although one of the things I've chosen to embrace from TAM is that no matter the circumstances, we are NEVER "justified" in doing the wrong thing..... no matter what the circumstances were that preceded our choice to do the wrong thing. But, at the time I posted that initial thread, I was in such a low place (of my own making) that what was harsh criticism felt like a brutal assault. If I had truly believed all of the negative things that were being said about me.... (and, believe me when I say that it was hard not to because it was being stated as absolute fact by the authority of TAM ) I wouldn't have lasted more than a day or two, here, and B1 and I would have never had this incredible resource and we would have never found you guys..... 

Fortunately, for me, B1 started posting a day or two after I did and that was truly the first step, in one of many, that we have made since then, on our road to reconciliation. I really think that I am a better person because of B1's love and because of what I've received from you all; knowledge and compassion.

Dig, you have done a TON of work...... and in doing so, you have helped countless others, B1 and myself included. I think that no matter what the future holds that Patrick is going to be just fine!

~EI


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## Acabado

Welcome back Dig. I'd wait for you posts when you feel like popping up.
Peace, friend.


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## Acabado

What's going on joe?
Come back and tell us some of the good stuff. 
Just because. Put it in writting. Tell it out loud.


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## Acabado

Terrific post Mr Blunt. Thanks.


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## B1

Acabado said:


> What's going on joe?
> Come back and tell us some of the good stuff.
> Just because. Put it in writting. Tell it out loud.


Yes, Joe...what's going on?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Acabado
> Terrific post Mr Blunt. Thanks.


*Es una alegría de compartir el espíritu con mi hermano*


----------



## ChangingMe

I am at such a loss. It has been a really rough weekend. I don't know what has triggered it, but it has been hard and I don't know what to do to help DD.

Last week seemed ok. On Friday, I asked DD if he wanted to go out that evening, and he said ok. We went to dinner & to a bar for a drink, and while the evening wasn't warm and cozy, DD talked with me, though he was a bit standoffish. We then headed to Target before getting the kids. While we are walking to the check-out, DD says loudly, "Wow that guy was totally checking you out." Then he whispers "Sir, she'll probably f--k you." He says a little louder, "Wow, that was totally uncalled for!" I didn't know what to say. I tell him I have to go to the bathroom, and then I go cry for a minute & try to compose myself. The ride to get the kids is silent, and when we get home, I get the kids in bed, and I go to bed myself. He comes in the room a couple hours later, stays in bed 2 minutes with me, then gets up and heads to another room. 

Saturday, he is distant all day and barely talks. He has a flight that evening and texts me after. I ask if he wants to hot tub (which tends to be the place we talk), and he says yes, that friends invited him over, but he told them he should go home. I appreciate that. He gets home, seems happy from the flight, we hot tub and talk about his flight and other non-relationship stuff. When I ask how he is, he says ok but his back hurts and he needs to get out of the hot tub. We get out, and I ask if he would like to keep talking. He says he is just going to get on his computer. I ask if he will sleep in our bed. He says maybe in a jokingish way. I tell him that I would appreciate it if he did. He does. 

Today, we have Easter with the kids, and then the rest of the morning is spent doing stuff around the house and relaxing. We go to my parents' house at 3:00. DD is nice around my family, but then after dinner, starts making some comments about me not listening or being engaged with the kids. I resented that and felt it untrue. Then he snapped at me again in a really rude way, and I replied by quietly saying, "Ok, I'm sorry, but you don't have to be a jerk about it." Not a nice thing to say, I know. I regret saying it. 

He goes out front with our daughter, and I go out there a few minutes after. He is furious. He says it's time to go. He says, "You are going to call me names, then f--k that, and f--k you." He hasn't said that to me since probably August. And he has never said it in front of our child before. I don't know what to do. I apologized for what I said, told him I wasn't calling him a jerk, but that how he was talking was rude and 'jerky.' 

I go inside and try to not cry, since my family and my parents' friends are there. We leave and go home. When we get home, I go into our room, and when I come back out, DD is gone. He has been gone for a couple of hours now. I texted him asking if he was alright, and he responded "So far." I have no idea what that means or where he is. I'm holding down the fort with the kids, but I'm barely holding it together. 

I don't know what to do. I hesitate to even post, because I know DD doesn't like me talking about him to people. I'm posting here though because I'm scared, and it's to keep me from calling his mom or his IC (who was also our MC when he would let me go), which is what I want to do when I get panicky. I really have no idea where he is at or if he is coming home tonight. I don't know to text him again or not. I don't want to bother him, and maybe he does need to cool down or something, but this behavior today is extreme for him, so I am concerned as well. 

Thoughts? Advice? Please. I don't know what to do. The anger seems to be escalating, and at such loss.


----------



## Openminded

CM, I have followed your story from the beginning and have been hopeful that DD will come out of this. But it doesn't seem that he is. 

You know by now that some men cannot get over their wife's infidelity. Do you feel that DD is one of them? Or could it be a medication issue?

I wish I had some answers for you.


----------



## Openminded

DevastatedDad said:


> I'm not as strong as everyone else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DD, I don't think it's a question of strength at all. I think you are a very strong person. However, this has been literally a life-changing event for you. Some of us just can't R.

I'm getting out of a very long marriage because, in the end, I just could tolerate it any longer. I did for decades. So I shouldn't even be posting on the R thread because I'm getting out.


----------



## ChangingMe

Openminded said:


> CM, I have followed your story from the beginning and have been hopeful that DD will come out of this. But it doesn't seem that he is.
> 
> You know by now that some men cannot get over their wife's infidelity. Do you feel that DD is one of them? Or could it be a medication issue?
> 
> I wish I had some answers for you.


I honestly don't know. When DD has been on a low-dose of an AD, he has posted on here that he know what I did, but he is able to not focus on it. He has told me he loves me, that he believes I am remorseful, that he believes I won't hurt him again. 

But he's not on medication now. He hasn't been since the start of February. He hates medication and says he will not go back on it. He clearly meets the criteria for depression, but I don't know how to help him.


----------



## Openminded

DevastatedDad said:


> You get to go be ”forgiven”, and pray for healing, and not be the same person your were back then and it is all well and good but i'm still fvcked up permanently it seems. Where is my magic ” oh i'm all better button”
> A year of hell. Absolute Hell
> 
> I fvcking hate this. Hate hate hate my life!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally understand. Believe me. I am not the same person I was 30 years ago when my husband cheated. Nor am I the person I was a few years ago when he cheated again. I want that person back. And she's gone. I want those years back. They're gone to.


----------



## Openminded

ChangingMe said:


> I honestly don't know. When DD has been on a low-dose of an AD, he has posted on here that he know what I did, but he is able to not focus on it. He has told me he loves me, that he believes I am remorseful, that he believes I won't hurt him again.
> 
> But he's not on medication now. He hasn't been since the start of February. He hates medication and says he will not go back on it. He clearly meets the criteria for depression, but I don't know how to help him.


I tried medication as well and couldn't handle it. Plus, 30 years ago when my problems began, rug-sweeping was the "in" thing and nothing got resolved in my case. 

Depression runs in my family and obviously a situation like this makes it worse. I have had some very black periods where I prayed not to wake up (didn't work).


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## Juicer

DD, I know that feeling. Wishing to just make the emotional storm go away. Wanting it all to just stop. Feeling the swirling emotions of a racing heart and a revolted stomach at the same time. 
A horrible place to be.

I don't know those of you who know or who don't know, but I got divorced. I don't want to get into the who's or the why's right now.
But I did it. And I fueled my anger to do it. 
And that rage doesn't go away. It stays with you, and builds off you. It is like a monster hiding and growing in the shadows, and until you bring it out into the light and deal with it, it keeps growing, until, you can no longer hide it. 

And I have been feeling it build up lately. Like a ticking time-bomb just waiting to go off. 
This week I blew up on a friend of mine. He called, not wanting to talk about anything big or emotional, just asked me how my bracket was doing. And that set me off. 

And I fear I am realizing this too late. But my rage, no longer hides in the shadows. It can longer be hidden. 
I fed my rage to do what I felt like I had to do. I fueled my raging fire of anger and frustration, and now I have to watch it burn out. And it is not pretty. It is horrifying. 

Perhaps if I had fueled different emotions, it would've ended differently, but who knows. 

DD, right now, you are trying to fuel both fires. You don't want to forgive CM. You are fueling your rage by doing that. 
But you are trying to reconcile. Trying to fuel your love and passion for her at the same time. 
And it puts you through hell, as you try to keep your anger in check, but realize that you can't give her your heart again without risking that she'll break it again. 

I understand the pain. I understand the regrets, the anger, the questioning, the sadness, the long sleepless nights, the shattered dreams and visions, the crushed ego, the questioning of yourself, I understand all that. 

But I will tell you this:
Eventually, one of those fires will over power the other. It will either be your passion and love for your wife, or your rage and anger at what she did. 
May take a long time to happen, but it will one day. 

I choose to fuel my anger. And sometimes, looking back, I do wonder what it would have been like had I tried fueling love at a different time and place. 
And I always wonder, if I choose to feed the wrong fire. To pursue the wrong emotion.
Because at the end of the day, one of those emotions are going to stick with you for a long time. A _very_ long time.
I choose rage and refused to forgive. 
Which will you choose?


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## Openminded

DevastatedDad said:


> I drove all over Dallas tonight trying to get in as much trouble add I could find.
> nudie bar, jack shack, whatever else but I couldn't follow through.
> I don't believe God is watching me but I still couldn't do it because I can't cheat on my family.
> I love my son too much to be that dad and do what you did
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I pray for you and CM every night. 

And I understand your anger.


----------



## Openminded

DevastatedDad said:


> I'm not trying to reconcile i'm trying to find or if I can begin to stomach what she did and tolerate being around her to keep my kids in a 2 parent home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know.

You are in an even worse place than trying to R. You are in limbo.

As much as I would love to see you and CM make it, I know there are worse things than divorce. 

You are disintegrating. I'm concerned about both of you. But you are the one who is disintegrating.


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## ChangingMe

Well, damn, I haven't look out in the driveway in a while. Thank you for coming home. Should I head out there or would you like to come in?


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## MrMathias

CM said:


> Thoughts? Advice? Please. I don't know what to do. The anger seems to be escalating, and at such loss.


Holidays are really hard. I can't speak for DD but in many ways I think we share some commonalities in out 'betrayed experience', so here's my point of view. 

Every holiday since Dday (1 or 2, take your pick) has been difficult. I find myself experiencing a moment of normalcy, I acknowledge it and think 'life is good' then my brain says 'Oh yeah? Remember this?' and reality smacks me in the back of the head. 

My spouse made every effort to be with another guy intimately. 

I'm sure every betrayed person had holidays and special events that they shared with the disloyal spouse, without knowing they're betrayed. Totally tainted, retroactively. Now, every good event is like a time bomb. I remember the holidays when I was being lied to, and wonder if this is yet another? 



DD said:


> You get to go be ”forgiven”, and pray for healing, and not be the same person your were back then and it is all well and good but i'm still fvcked up permanently it seems. Where is my magic ” oh i'm all better button”


I can relate to this too. It seems like the betrayer gets to have their itch scratched, they get to 'figure out what they really wanted all along' and introspect and be remorseful, become a better person, keep the morals they always had but faltered on briefly. Sometimes my wife seems happy, content, fulfilled... which just doesn't seem _right_ for an arch-liar and backstabber. 

I'll probably be wondering 'What if?' for the rest of my life.


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## jim123

Hey DD, 

Think of the kids.


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## hopefulgirl

Sometimes it's really hard to turn off the obsessing.

I was feeling so hurt the other night, and wondering how many others he might have slept with (because of something mean that he said), I went to stay at a hotel - I just needed to stay somewhere else (there's no other bed in our house, and I wasn't going to sleep in the same bed as my WS).

I know that these "storms" will come but they do pass, and we're doing much better now. We talked it out, he's shown remorse, and I'm 99.99% sure there was only that one OW. I don't know if I can ever be 100% sure of anything ever again, so this will have to be as good as it gets.

I hope you guys can work it out too. But I know the pain of betrayal, when it rears its ugly head, can sock you in the gut just as if it was D-Day all over again. I'm so sorry you're feeling that pain.


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## EI

joe kidd said:


> I can't stand this. I don't want this. F^ck off and leave me alone.


Well, then, what do you want, Joe? Decide....... Make it happen.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Maybe this will help someone

The pain and damage of infidelity is somewhat like my back injury

The first year or two it hurt like crazy when I failed to do the proper maintenance.
If I went back to my old days and lifted over 50 pounds I would be in bed for a few days and have pain stick around for weeks. That means that I have to do the maintenance and stay away from repeating my mistake.

I would ask why I had to get hurt. Then I would realize that I thought that I could do what I wanted and did not need any advice from others. You cannot always trust yourself.

Then I would lay in bed and think how stupid I was; get all down and everything. Then I thought what is the use of trying I am never going to get to play my kind of sports again and I am only in my 30s. We would go to the grocery store and my wife would have to carry and load the heavy stuff. All the men and women looking at me like I was an inconsiderate chauvinist man-pig. Feeling sorry for myself was not going to get it. I figured that I had a choice of losing my face or my AZZ. It was embarrassing but I kept my AZZ.

I went to a ton of doctors and one finally said; “you can get busy and get your stomach muscles in shape with exercise, lose some weight, and wait for your body to adjust to the bulge in your disk or you can expect someone else to fix you with an operation.” 
That doctor had a back problem also. Well I saw my co-worker have a back operation and he went on full disability and had pain for the rest of his life. I finally figured out that I was not going to get better by taking the easy way. Had to face the fact that the easy way was not going to get it and I should listen to the one that has already been where I was.

It took several more years for me to do what I could do for myself and have some faith that the body will adjust some. If I remember right it was around 5-6 years after the injury that I did not have to baby my back like an 80 year old. I would forget and pick up a 50 pound item and it did not trigger a fear. It is great when you know for sure that your mistake is not going to keep you from a good life.

I could no longer play the competitive physically demanding sports like basketball and volleyball but I could play softball, ping pong, and pool. The pain that I would get after 5-6 years was very light. As a matter of fact after 10 years it is not even my main physical concern. My biggest concern now is controlling my eating and weight. Our family treats eating like it is one of the warmest bonding experiences in life. It is that but even a good thing has to have some balance.

I can compare the back injury to infidelity because they occurred about the same time.


Here is the possible help:

I have read on this TAM board that it takes around 5 years to really see a significant difference in the infidelity pain if the work is done. Same with my back injury. The pain can be reduced every year and perhaps some can get significant pain reduction in less than 5 years.

After 10 years the pain of infidelity is somewhat like when you got dumped by your girlfriend/boyfriend in high school. You have to be reminded of the event then it hurts a little but then you can see how you gained from your education about human behavior. You forget about in minutes.

Now I know that most of you are not near 5 years. I can tell you that you will probably grow more in your caring and understanding of others in the first 5 years and the first two were my biggest gains.

For those of you in the first 5 years of R, you are going to vastly improve your caring nature if you do the right things. Do not look at your first 5 years as just something to bear; remember that you will probably be touched more in your emotions and spirit in those 5 years than any other time in your life. *Forgiveness is a spiritual gift.* This is what I have seen after over 20 years of successful R.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him


----------



## EI

Openminded said:


> DD, I don't think it's a question of strength at all. I think you are a very strong person. However, this has been literally a life-changing event for you. Some of us just can't R.
> 
> I'm getting out of a 45 year marriage because, in the end, I just could tolerate it any longer. I did for decades. *So I shouldn't even be posting on the R thread because I'm getting out.*


Yes, you should be posting here. Reconciliation has to start within yourself. You may not reconcile your marriage, and perhaps you shouldn't, but you have to reconcile yourself. You have to heal yourself. Even though you weren't the unfaithful spouse in your marriage, and you didn't create the situation that has caused you so much pain, you still have to be pro-active in your own healing....... whether you stay married to your WS or not.


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## Rookie4

DevastatedDad said:


> I can't reach the garage door opener
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First a comment to DD. DD, If your life sucks so much, get a divorce or separate. See if being away from CM makes you feel any better or worse. See what it's like out there in the single world. Ask CM if she would give you a hall pass to get some strange and then see if you feel any better. Because I'm betting it won't, and neither will getting soused and arguing all of the time. Do you think that bad-mouthing CM in front of your kids is doing them any good? Make a decision. Work on the marriage , give CM a clear set of demands and then stick to the program. Or get a D, and be good co-parents. If you think she is having a lot of fun and games, you're mistaken. Whatever you decide to do, get it done and improve your life. You can be great parents and not be married. You can be great parents and reconcile. What you cannot do is be great parents and have all of this crap going on for your kids to be around, and experience. The major damage caused to kids isn't the affair, it is the turmoil afterwards.


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## Rookie4

I also want to make clear that I am NOT advocating you get a divorce and /or separate. I'm saying that what you and CM are doing NOW doesn't seem to be working, so maybe you need to think outside the box.


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## Rookie4

Cm, I have a comment for you as well. What would you do if DD divorced you? Would you give up on him? Would you still try to atone? Would your love still be as strong? Would you still try to mend your relationship, or would you bail?


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## Rookie4

What Sweetie and I did was pretty unorthodox, but it worked. She has proven herself a thousand times over and continues to do so. I have accepted her back into my life and have forgiven (I mean REALLY forgiven) her and we are well on our way to being not just happy, but spectacularly happy. There isn't any one way to reconcile any more than there is only one way to cheat. In my mind, it isn't about the marriage, it's about the relationship between two people that matter.
I asked Sweetie whether she prefered to be married or have our present relationship. She said that what she prefered was to be with me. How we are together isn't as important as the fact that we are indeed together. She want me in any capacity. So maybe our way of R isn't so off-the-wall at that.


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## margrace

hopefulgirl said:


> Dig, I'm very new here but noticed that your posts were some of the most helpful of all. Was quite shocked when YOU were banned. Suspected it was because you stood up to some bullying.
> 
> I agree that the internet can be a wonderful resource, and that yes, too many use it to spew their own bitterness and try to spread their own very warped view of the world. Misery loves company.
> 
> Which is not at ALL doing the same thing as people on this thread who have been hurt due to similar circumstances who try to ease the burden by sharing ideas, good books, tips that have helped the ones who are further along in the journey, and warm words of encouragement amongst each other.
> 
> Sorry you feel the need to be more absent, but that's understood. Thanks for all your help and support.



Dig, you are awesome. i’m happy to have you back, even briefly. When I was out there in the wilderness of the other threads, you were one of the first posters who said something humane to me. I’m sending you and Patrick my warmest wishes 


Robsia, just want to say, yes, sister, I know how hard it is to deal with those things that you can’t really ever prove or disprove to yourself. Until our WSs understand and can show us that they are committed to radical honesty, we are stuck with the words of someone who has lied and lied and lied.

And I don’t think I’ve ever welcomed you, hopeful girl, but I have really appreciated your posts


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## margrace

DevastatedDad said:


> You get to go be ”forgiven”, and pray for healing, and not be the same person your were back then and it is all well and good but i'm still fvcked up permanently it seems. Where is my magic ” oh i'm all better button”
> A year of hell. Absolute Hell
> 
> I fvcking hate this. Hate hate hate my life!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


oh DD, i do understand. i'm hoping that since you posted on this thread, you won't feel that i'm being intrusive by sharing my thoughts with you.

nothing has ever come CLOSE to killing me like this year has. i lost my sanity and my physical health. i still haven't picked up the pieces of the things that i've screwed up or just plain _lost_ at work. i still can't sleep or eat normally like i used to. i have moments of panic almost every day. i am vaguely afraid of people and feel like they might be trying to trick me in some way. i have avoided friends and family, who are hurt and confused as a result. in my mind, i see my husband's face as he was having an O with some woman, or as he told me one of the many elaborate lies that he deceived me with. i think of all the money from our household that went into his cheating. some days, it's hard to leave my apartment. i feel surges of powerful rage.

okay, why do i go into all that? because i try not to feed that fire, to use juicer's analogy, but i don't want to present a false impression -- that i'm not a mess. i am 

ALL of the feelings that we struggle with as BSs are legitimate, and there is no justification for cheating and lying. for R to work, WSs must be accountable and pretty much stop at nothing to repair the damage that they have done.

you have a WS like that. i'm starting to have one too, i think/hope 

still, R is tremendously hard every single day. since i know that, i truly support every BS in whatever they choose -- to take on R or not. 

maybe you are realizing that you just don't choose it. maybe there is a life after CM or without CM that has more appeal to you. i would support your decision to pursue it.

or maybe, at the bottom of it all, you just don't love her (enough) anymore to withstand all this. 

can our WSs change the past with their remorse and love and honesty and hard work? of course not. but they are just people like me. i know what it's like to let people down and let myself down. i know what it's like to need to be forgiven, and to receive forgiveness, and to be amazed by forgiveness, and to be grateful for forgiveness. i bet i will again, too.

i also believe that, if our WSs really *really *do this work, there will be no better husbands, wives, or parents on earth than they are. they will be those wise, compassionate women and men who we all want in our lives, those wise ones who approach life with love and humility and integrity and dedication, because they KNOW how fragile it all is and how fallible they are. no illusions! just honesty and hard work and an appreciation for what a gift it is to live a life where you can love and be loved!

and i am learning those things as well 

you have right now a woman who has made terrible mistakes, and who must be accountable for that for the rest of her life, and who loves you just beyond anything. but if you don't want her, you need to let her go. 

btw, i don't believe that for most WSs, being forgiven = all is well and good. remorseful WSs are suffering, too. yes, yes, yes, they brought it on themselves -- but their suffering is real UNLESS you are married to a person who is a sociopath or has a similar characterological disorder. in that case, forget everything that i am saying and RUN.

going forward, 1) BSs can't be expected to ever be completely and 100% "over it" -- there will always be twinges, so 2) WSs must be prepared to show ongoing accountability. at the same time, 3) our pain does not give us license to beat remorseful people over the head with their mistakes every day forever.

i am feeling for you! and my own outsider, third-party opinion is that you have a treasure in CM, a treasure that should not be lost. i know how scary it can be to embrace that -- i'm afraid of it myself. but maybe it's time to lay down your arms  and just quietly hold hands with it for a while if CM can promise again that she will never stop showing you what a deeply committed, faithful, honest, loving wife she is to DD.


----------



## B1

EI said:


> Yes, you should be posting here. Reconciliation has to start within yourself. You may not reconcile your marriage, and perhaps you shouldn't, but you have to reconcile yourself. You have to heal yourself. Even though you weren't the unfaithful spouse in your marriage, and you didn't create the situation that has caused you so much pain, you still have to be pro-active in your own healing....... whether you stay married to your WS or not.


:iagree:
DD, EI is so right..


----------



## margrace

DevastatedDad said:


> I swear to god it is every effing moment.
> It is april, the start of the affair. for the next 2 months god knows what will be going through my head...
> 
> ...Sorry to spew all this crap here but I am having a rough time and I can't imagine what the next months are going to bring.


i hear you. this month that just passed -- march -- was when i found out about the As last year, and i was a wreck.

i am running to work right now but i'm going to pm you this evening....


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## Openminded

DD, what all BS's want is peace. Other things as well but what we *need *in our lives is peace. 

I hope very much that you (and CM) find that peace.

It's been a hard battle.


----------



## hopefulgirl

DD, SOOO many triggers. Wow. That is so hard to deal with. I know how my heart rate zoomed the other night, when I had to get in MY car, and get out of the house and go stay at a hotel so I wouldn't have to sleep in the same bed with my WS, so I know what it's like. It's not just the emotions, it's what the triggering does to your body - the adrenaline, your heart rate, your gut - it's awful, all the way around.

I don't have any friends that I want to tell this to. I'm just too humiliated. That's why I come here. I've thought about IC, but so far I've received the support and information that I needed from coming here and from reading Not Just Friends, plus some other internet sources and a couple other books (Not Just Friends is the best, though - it's really helped a lot).

If I were you, I wouldn't decide about the divorce while you're this upset. Calm down for a few days, then if you're still ready to do it, then go ahead because if it's what you need to do - like Rookie, it may be the way you need to deal with it. It's just not good to make decisions when you're really emotional. But I understand how the painful reminders seem to be everywhere now - that's just awful, and I'm so sorry you're going through this.


----------



## hopefulgirl

margrace said:


> And I don’t think I’ve ever welcomed you, hopeful girl, but I have really appreciated your posts


Thanks for the nice welcome and kind words, margrace.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By DD
> I am not strong enough to handle this situation. I have been broken and I feel like I am losing it.* How do you other BS just "let go" or whatever the phrasing is?* I don't know if you are all better at handling your emotions than me or what but I am not an emotional person. I was when I was little kid but as an adult, I have been mostly a logical thinking versus feeling person.



*I found out that my whole life is not all wrapped up with my WS wife.*

I needed someone that I could trust always, someone who keep me from going under, someone that gave me hope, that gave me back some security, that gave me strength, some one that would guide me, someone that I could lean on with all my fears, someone that helped me control my emotions.

No human could do the above so I ran back to my childhood memories and remembered that there was a person that I was told about that *loved me enough to take a huge hit for me even though I did not deserve it*. You can laugh if you want to but to me God is real and can do all the things for me that I listed above. In fact with my much suffering He was faithful and after 20 years of ups and downs I can now see that deep pain can help us to get our priorities right.

My wife and I have our ups and downs but we have a very satisfactory life. I have no resentments, and am thankful to God for all the blessings that He has graciously given to me. I had to do my part but the BIG ones are for Him!

I know that I can have a good life without my wife but I do not want that at all. God took me off my judgment throne a long time ago and forgave me for my huge mistakes and is very pleased that I have forgiven my wife. It is a great feeling and adds so much strength to know that you have pleased God; it lasts a life time! I do not have much to lay at God’s feet when the real big D comes (not divorce but death) but I know that He will be pleased with me for doing to others what He had done for me. That is priceless! *Forgiveness is a spiritual event.*

Your whole life is not all about what another person does to you. You have a spiritual life whether you want it or not. 

Like Rookie said, try thinking outside your box. You have tried your way and maybe you would consider giving God a chance. There is so much security and peace in knowing that God is faithful and benevolent

From what I have read about your wife she is OUTSTANDING in her taking her punishments and giving it her all to make up for her terrible mistakes. *God will forgive her; God will forgive you, now it is your turn. What are you gong to do?*

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him


----------



## LostViking

You can forgive CM completely, and still part ways with her. Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to subject yourself to a life of imprisonment in a relationship where the betrayal has been so incredible that there is no turning back. 

There is nothing wrong with walking away from this to save your own sanity. Nothing wrong at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lisab0105

Haven't really posted in this thread...not sure why since I am smack dab in the middle of reconciliation. Every day I wake up convincing myself I still want to be with him. 

But I get what DD is saying on the "forgiveness" part. I was just thinking the same thing the other night while washing dishes. What is in it for us to forgive them? I don't feel any better about the cheating and the lying. The triggers won't stop. All it says to me is "I'll stop talking about it and you get to stop putting on your I feel bad face." 

When I think about forgiving my guy...the only thing that creeps into my head is this..."You get to screw another woman, lie about it, try to screw another dozen women while I am home, pregnant, stressed and humiliated...you get to keep me and you want forgiveness for being a ho-bag to top it off?" I know that when that train of thought enters my head when contemplating forgiveness...I am not any where near ready to forgive. Not sure if I ever will be. 

The horror that is imagining or hearing your SO f*cking someone else is never ending...no amount of remorse by the WS can really help (not me any way) mainly because if he was so capable of remorse, they wouldn't of gone through with it. 

Everything else since the truth came out is just a show he puts on to keep everything in HIS life the way he wants it. 

Reconciling sucks @ss today...maybe tomorrow will be better.


----------



## bfree

I was in the middle of posting this when I got banned. It may not be relevant anymore but darn it I worked hard to try to say the right words so I'm posting it anyway.

Mrs M, I know what's going on with Matt right now. The lessons he is assimilating and the painful experiences he's absorbing are difficult. Let me first say that the things he says right now about the future are coming from a place that he won't be in by that time. You should listen to him and acknowledge what he's saying but do not be discouraged. Things WILL change in that regard.

Here's a more important lesson that he is having difficulty grasping. In our culture women are considered to be better behaved than men. If you think about it you'll realize I'm correct. Who are considered aggressive...men. Who are always assumed to be the more likely to commit crimes...men. Who commits sexual assault...men. We're even indoctrinated into this belief system as children. Girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice. What are boys made of? But women have the same faults and weaknesses as men do. But since the perception is that they are better we tend to be more shocked and confused when the women in our lives make mistakes or do terrible things. I feel that it's grossly unfair for women to be held to a higher standard than men. But that's what is happening. The fact that you're human is what is giving Matt the most trouble. All his life he's been taught to revere women, to respect women, to pedestalize women. So he has two options. Option A, he reevaluates everything he has learned about women and relationships. He's a smart man so realistically he should be capable of making that transition. Option B, he stubbornly refuses to see reality and continues to holds the false belief that women are somehow always good. Of course if he chooses option B then he must also conclude that you are broken and irreparable. That he should find himself a "good woman." That would be tragic because he already has one.


----------



## bfree

Thump, thump, thump....is this thing on?


----------



## Robsia

lisab - all I can think of to say to you is that the only reason I am considering R with my WH is because the thought of life without him is more painful than the alternative. Our M had cracks in it before the A. For my part, I think that if we can work hard on fixing those cacks then we stand a very good chance of having an excellent M in the future. That is the only reason I am even trying. It's a long road, but I would always regret it if I didn't try.

You have to be selfish and go with what's best for you. If R is too painful, and you are better off without him, then what possible reason do you have to stay? He doesn't deserve your forgiveness. He shouldn't expect your forgiveness. You should only R if it is the right thing for you. He didn't care about what you wanted when he cheated.

I do understand what you mean. I feel like he cheated, yet he is the one getting the second chance at happiness. I feel like I'm rewarding him for cheating. And that's hard to deal with. But I'm not doing it for him, I'm doing it for me.


----------



## Openminded

DevastatedDad said:


> That worked for you because you believe in it. And I am really glad.
> 
> If you were in my shoes and said I am going to send you positive energy but you really gotta open yourself up to receive it, you would probably say thanks but no thanks.
> 
> I am not here to condemn anyone's religious beliefs. I am glad you have them and I am glad they are working for you. I really am but that is not the medicine for me. Sadly it is the next big elephant in the room because CM is headed your direction thinking wise, and am done even trying to pretend like it is real anymore. Too disappointing pulling back the sheet and hoping but nothing there.
> 
> Not being obstinate here, this is just something I have let go of trying to find, seek, feel, etc.
> 
> please don't attack me for my opinion and please do not try to convince me of anything. It will make me very uncomfortable. I am already pretty uncomfortable right now.
> 
> I am sorry if I offend any / all of you. I am not thinking negatively of anyone for believing something I do not. I think it is good that you have this. sincerely.


I found what I needed (primarily peace and acceptance) within myself. It took a long time to get there but I did. 

And you will find it within yourself as well.


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## calvin

I understand where DD is coming from,it hurts,it sucks the life out of you.
You are changed forever,its not f'ing fair,not f'ing right!
It is possible to re-build,its hard as hell but it CAN be done,no one deserves to be hurt like this.
It takes a strong and patient person to overcome this crap,sometimes you wonder what's the point?Why try? The damage is done.
Throwing in the towel is not an option,too much time invested and the fallout would hurt too many.Everyone should get a chance to right their wrong I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

Mr Blunt said:


> ...This day represents that no matter how much you have blown it in your life that you can be RESTORED.
> 
> There really is such a thing as ANOTHER CHANCE given.
> 
> It means that you can have the OPPORTINITY to shed the guilt, the shame, the self-loathing and all the rest of the baggage that you have brought on yourself.
> 
> This day represents that you can be ACCEPTED no matter what your weight is, what you look like, what you have done, what social standing you have, what grades you got in school, or what others think of you.
> 
> This day represents that there is such a thing as REAL TRUE LOVE, not the kind of love that is sometimes portrayed in movies, but a love that is all giving and proves it by taking a huge hit for you so that you can benefit.
> 
> This day presents us with something that goes beyond justice; it presents us with a higher standard, which is the higher standard of GRACE. Grace is giving someone something that they do not deserve; grace can even turn revenge into forgiveness....


this post, like so many of yours, mr. b, really spoke to me through its content and its timing.

all of you know me as margrace. that name has nothing to do with my real name. i chose it because, first, mar is for march -- the month that i found out about WH's cheating one year ago. so i typed "mar," which captured so much devastation for me, into the username blank. i looked at it and then the word "grace" came to me. 

although i'm not a conventionally religious person, the word _grace_ means something to me, something very much like what mr. b expressed, and i knew that i desperately needed some kind of grace to come into my life in the midst of that mar(ch). i needed it and my WH needed it.

now it's one year later, and this time, march came with pain but left with grace (or at least with the promise of that).

it's crystal clear to me that we have lots more work ahead -- but we had a tough, productive MC session today 

xxx margrace


----------



## calvin

Good to hear marge,you and others give us all hope.
Some days are good...some just really suck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

DD, From what I understand, we can't officially be diagnosed with posttraumatic stress disorder because we haven't been exposed to something that involved a loss of life or potential loss of life. But our trauma reactions closely mimic those of someone who does have PTSD.

We are traumatized, no two ways about it.

The obsessing, the intrusive thoughts, the anger, the grief, the adrenaline surges when we re-experience stuff - it's just like PTSD.

I would never have guessed it was like this. Like a lot of things, until you go through it, you just have no idea. Boy did their bad decisions have consequences; but when they chose to have affairs, they were CLUELESS about the devastation they were going to cause to OUR minds and bodies.

Have you read Not Just Friends? There are a couple lists of questions that help Betrayed Spouses think through the decision-making process. They're in the chapter called "Should You Pick Up the Pieces or Throw In the Towel?" I think you'd find it really helpful. 

The book has been very comforting to me - all this stuff we're going through is completely NORMAL under the circumstances.


----------



## bfree

I cannot give any poignant words that will help with reconciliation. I never got the chance to R with my ex wife. What I will say is this. Divorce will NOT make it better nor will it make the triggers vanish. On the contrary, without your fWS to help comfort you when you do trigger the triggers will become worse and last longer. This I DO KNOW firsthand.

DD, and others. There really are no short cuts around this. The only way to make it better is to come to a point of forgiveness. The trust can be rebuilt albeit sometimes slowly. The love is still there or honestly you wouldn't be trying to R. But you must start working on forgiveness. There is no other way.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I cannot give any poignant words that will help with reconciliation. I never got the chance to R with my ex wife. What I will say is this. Divorce will NOT make it better nor will it make the triggers vanish. On the contrary, without your fWS to help comfort you when you do trigger the triggers will become worse and last longer. This I DO KNOW firsthand.
> 
> DD, and others. There really are no short cuts around this. The only way to make it better is to come to a point of forgiveness. The trust can be rebuilt albeit sometimes slowly. The love is still there or honestly you wouldn't be trying to R. But you must start working on forgiveness. There is no other way.


I can't argue with that bfree.Hope isn't a plane but you can't plan without having hope.
Ugh.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

BTW, I'm sorry for getting banned recently. My comment was made as a joke. When I saw that people were getting ruffled feathers at Furious George's comments I tried to inject some humor by comparing him to the children's books I used to read "Curious George." Hence my comment. I even put an emoticon next to it so that everyone would know it was an attempt at humor. Obviously it was a failed attempt but no malice was intended and I apologize if anyone took offense at my comment. I do find it somewhat funny that I was accused of having a thin skin, lol.


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## calvin

Hope is a plane....whoops,I'm ready to fly the f out of all this bs,feel like I'm the only one trying.

Can't make someone do what they won't or don't want to.
Night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aunt Ava

bfree said:


> Divorce will NOT make it better nor will it make the triggers vanish. My experience was that divorce freed me. On the contrary, without your fWS to help comfort you when you do trigger the triggers will become worse and last longer. This I DO KNOW firsthand. Once he was out of my life I didn't trigger, I happily moved on, healed and later married a much better man. Sorry, I know this is a reconciliation thread but I had to respectfully disagree.


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## bfree

Ava, was your ex remorseful? Did he want to R? Did he work to regain your trust?


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## Aunt Ava

No, Yes, No. His attitude was I couldn't prove it, so it didn't happen. So rugsweeping ensued. I tried, I tolerated far more than I should have. Eventually I stood up for myself, and decided that's it I'm done.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Divorce will NOT make it better nor will it make the triggers vanish. *On the contrary, without your fWS to help comfort you when you do trigger the triggers will become worse and last longer.* This I DO KNOW firsthand.
> 
> DD, and others. There really are no short cuts around this. The only way to make it better is to come to a point of forgiveness. The trust can be rebuilt albeit sometimes slowly. The love is still there or honestly you wouldn't be trying to R. But you must start working on forgiveness. There is no other way.





Aunt Ava said:


> Originally Posted by bfree
> Divorce will NOT make it better nor will it make the triggers vanish. My experience was that divorce freed me. On the contrary, without your fWS to help comfort you when you do trigger the triggers will become worse and last longer. This I DO KNOW firsthand. Once he was out of my life I didn't trigger, I happily moved on, healed and later married a much better man. Sorry, I know this is a reconciliation thread but I had to respectfully disagree.


_This is the whole point of the "R" thread. There is no one perfect or right way of dealing with infidelity and/or reconciliation. We each have to find our own way. And, no matter what path we choose, we all need compassion, support and understanding. 

You each had a different experience and they are both valid... not right, not wrong._

*BTW...... Welcome back, bfree, we've missed you! *


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## Mrs_Mathias

Well, I announced my pregnancy on FB today. I figured I might as well enjoy watching people decide if it's a joke or not. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

Aunt Ava said:


> No, Yes, No. His attitude was I couldn't prove it, so it didn't happen. So rugsweeping ensued. I tried, I tolerated far more than I should have. Eventually I stood up for myself, and decided that's it I'm done.


Your situation is very similar to mine. Mine might have the record in terms of time (a 30 year period). 

It took awhile but I got there.


----------



## B1

DD, on how do I get through it. 
I focus on the now, today and try not to replay the past. I know EI loves me, I have changed and the rotten condition of our marriage does not exist anymore. EI is sorry, regretful and hates what she did. I to, hate what I did to her all those years. I realized we both messed up.

Now, dealing with the images, movies and thoughts. Again I am focusing on today and tomorrow, with the occasional slip where i look behind me. I have to admit I don't have the triggers you have, the om being a friend and all, and the audio, all the pix, that makes it harder. 

Honestly what really helps me is my love for EI, and her love for me. I just know we can do this, that I can have happiness and peace with her. Our love for each other is just amazing. I know this doesn't help you much, but I am just trying to answer your "how do you do it question."

I will admit its not always easy, it takes effort sometimes to not think about it, focus on it. Sometimes I am flooded with images and its overwhelming and painful as hell. Sometimes I think this time last year she was with him, in love with him, being with him. I will be so glad when I can say this time last year she was with me.


I sure wish there was something I Could say that would really help dd.
But so much of this is in your hands. You may have to reach out for help, you may need to see a doctor, get to IC, I know you don't want too, but it may be necessary for your journey. You need help DD, we can only give so much and we can't swing by and pick you up and go have a beer and talk, believe me, if I could I would have already been there, and I am certain most everyone else on this thread would be too.

About those pix, don't worry about it. Please don't trigger yourself looking for them. Though, I would love to see some. 

Btw I don't have a lot of friends either, especially no one I can talk to about this. It does suck, I don't really have anyone I could call up and say hey I'm having a rough time can we meet up and talk.


----------



## bfree

Aunt Ava said:


> No, Yes, No. His attitude was I couldn't prove it, so it didn't happen. So rugsweeping ensued. I tried, I tolerated far more than I should have. Eventually I stood up for myself, and decided that's it I'm done.


And that is why you felt freed. The deception never ended for you so of course you needed to put it all behind you. But DD and the others are married to extremely remorseful spouses. They are also still in love with their fWS. Divorcing in their cases would not be freeing, it would simply compound their pain.

Now, in my case I also did not have a remorseful spouse. She was extremely cruel and R was never an option because she didn't want it. Yet I think because things moved so fast I never had time to fall out of love with her. I still wanted to try to save our marriage right up until and even after the D became official. So for me the triggers were extreme and debilitating precisely because she was not there to comfort me and continued to see other men even though we were still married. But EI is correct, there is no right or wrong way to react. Its up to the individual. I guess when I made my post I should have said D is very often not the cure for infidelity triggering and it is likely that triggering will continue if you still love your spouse. I guess I'm out of practice.


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## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> That worked for you because you believe in it. And I am really glad.
> 
> If you were in my shoes and said I am going to send you positive energy but you really gotta open yourself up to receive it, you would probably say thanks but no thanks.
> 
> I am not here to condemn anyone's religious beliefs. I am glad you have them and I am glad they are working for you. I really am but that is not the medicine for me. Sadly it is the next big elephant in the room because CM is headed your direction thinking wise, and am done even trying to pretend like it is real anymore. Too disappointing pulling back the sheet and hoping but nothing there.
> 
> Not being obstinate here, this is just something I have let go of trying to find, seek, feel, etc.
> 
> please don't attack me for my opinion and please do not try to convince me of anything. It will make me very uncomfortable. I am already pretty uncomfortable right now.
> 
> I am sorry if I offend any / all of you. I am not thinking negatively of anyone for believing something I do not. I think it is good that you have this. sincerely.


DD,

You haven't offended anyone, here. I believe that I speak for everyone reading this when I say that we are feeling your pain. It's palpable in the words that you write. You are struggling with one of the worst things that should NEVER happen to anyone.... yet, it does. It makes no difference whether you are a Christian, an Atheist, an Agnostic or something else.... your pain is real and your suffering is obviously very intense. 

I think you may feel that since CM began posting on this thread first that "WE" think you should just forgive and forget, move on and live happily ever after. No one here thinks it's that easy. Most of us are in various stages of recovering from infidelity, ourselves. Many of us, here, have a timeline that is close to your own.... with calendar dates marking the "anniversary" of horrible events coming up soon or having just passed. 

As the WS in my marriage, and reading about how intense your suffering is, I'm struggling with feeling unworthy of even trying to offer you something, anything that might help you. But, I have to try. So this is what I've got.... and it's not magic..... I wish it were. Whether or not you and CM stay married, whether or not you eventually have a successful reconciliation that leads to a happy marriage or you just stay married "for the sake of your children," or you and CM divorce and go separate ways, you NEED to heal. And, I know that you want to. No one wants to hurt this much. You have a thread that you post on. You've reached out to others on TAM for help, you've reached out to CM, you were trying to find friends to hang out with last night, you've tried meds off and on and you've tried counseling. You're reaching.... you don't want to hurt, but you feel powerless to make it stop. The truth is you NEED to heal, but that doesn't mean that you will. I tell B1 all of the time that love, healing, forgiving, etc..... they're verbs.... action words. They can be spoken, like a noun, but without action, they're meaningless. You have to find something that inspires you. Right now it isn't CM, it isn't faith...... but, I have seen the one thing over and over throughout your posts that does inspire you..... it's your children.... it's even in your signature. So, DD, 30 years from now your son comes to you and shares with you that he is same position that you're in today. What do you want for him? What will you tell him? What do you think would be in his best interests? Stay married, get a divorce, remain hurt, angry, bitter, resentful, filled with unforgiveness that will literally eat at him like a cancer for the rest of his days? Or will you tell him to dig as deep as he can, and fight for his well-being, fight for his sanity, fight for his happiness, fight for his health, fight for his peace of mind, fight for his healing??? What will you tell him?

CM can't fix all of this, alone. She can only work on herself. It may never be enough for you, it simply may not be possible to reconcile your marriage, no matter how hard she tries or how much time, effort and energy she puts in "fixing" the part of herself that created this disaster. But she still has to do it.... for herself and for your children, if not for you. She would love to be able to "fix" this, fix you, fix her, fix this whole horrible nightmare... but she can't. She can only truly be responsible for herself and her own healing. She can "assist" you, but only if you'll let her. 

You should look up and read Acabado's posts..... on this thread and others. He writes about personal healing, personal accountability and so many other inspiring things that they're too numerous to mention. He, BTW, is an Atheist..... so his wisdom and strength comes from a place within himself.

DD, you have to find the strength within yourself. You need to find a way to reconcile this unwanted reality within yourself. Only then will you be in a place to make wise decisions about your future and about your marriage. But, please understand that I am not talking about your marriage, right now, I am talking about you.

I'm no one.... just another WS.... so my words might be meaningless or even offensive to you. But, for what it's worth, I've talked to many WS's..... on TAM and in my life. Without risking offending anyone, I believe that CM is truly the most remorseful person that I have ever spoken to..... ever, for any offense. I am so sorry that you're in so much pain. You're the only one who can decide when the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing. I think I read that on some guy's thread around here....  Smart guy! 

Take care,
~EI


----------



## bfree

You know one thing keeps echoing in my mind over and over again. I'm a firm believer in choosing happiness. I have seen people in such dire straights that they really have no business being happy.....but they are. Because they choose happiness. I wonder if healing is in some sense the same thing. I read how B1 starts to trigger and chooses to focus on something else. He just wills it. And I think on some level he does so because he wants to be happy and maybe even more important he wants EI to be happy too. Sometimes I think we hold onto pain and carry it like a shield to protect us. As long as we remember the reasons for our pain we won't ever be caught off guard again. But the pain is not a shield, it's an anchor keeping us submerged in a quagmire of anguish and misery. Sometimes I really do think it's all about choice. I know what I choose.


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## hopefulgirl

bfree, I agree with you, for the most part. I think I'm in that place MUCH of the time. But a lot of what happens when there's a bad trigger situation is physiological, chemical - it's powerful stuff. I've tried to "switch to another channel" sometimes (go to my "happy place") but my mind often bounces right back. The obsessions and intrusive thoughts are compelling. 

People who meditate or do yoga or stuff like that may have the discipline to get their minds out of the negativity loop once it starts. But it's REALLY hard once you're off to the races.

Doing the "Love Languages" online helped - my WS has been doing more acts of service because he learned that's my primary love language, and that helps to keep me feeling more loved during this fragile time. I choose to be receptive to that, and to honor his primary love language (quality time) as well.

I AM hopeful.  But I also completely understand dd's intense pain, especially in light of a convergence of triggers. I think it's incredibly hard to choose happiness and moving forward when the effects of trauma are doing a number on you.


----------



## larry.gray

I just want to add, EI, you're truly a gift to TAM. 

I've posted a bit before about why I hang here sometimes. But there is one more part that I haven't shared yet.

I was in a very similar place in my marriage. I was in your shoes. 

I could have been you. Really, it could have happened. That God it didn't, but it could have.

That scares the ever loving crap out of me. To think that I could have destroyed what I have, all for what? Moments of pleasure? I could have either been destroyed by guilt, living a lie. Or broken a good woman that I care deeply about in the worst way possible. Please understand, I don't say this as looking down at you at all. I'm SO SO SO grateful that it didn't happen. I'm so glad I didn't. 

Something you said before got to me. I don't want my kids to suffer from infidelity on either side. Yeah, some WS are unremorseful sociopaths, but most aren't. Most are people who made a horrible, horrible choice. I want to figure out how to keep people from going down this path.


----------



## jim123

DD,

You are plenty strong and a great man.

None of us can tell you what to do. All we can do is help you to a decision.

Do not focus on one period of time. Remember the time before and the time after.

I only know the time after. I can only tell you in this time, there is no one who will love you more than CM. Maybe that is not enough or maybe too late. But at least recognize it.


----------



## EI

larry.gray said:


> I just want to add, EI, you're truly a gift to TAM.
> 
> I've posted a bit before about why I hang here sometimes. But there is one more part that I haven't shared yet.
> 
> I was in a very similar place in my marriage. I was in your shoes.
> 
> I could have been you. Really, it could have happened. That God it didn't, but it could have.
> 
> That scares the ever loving crap out of me. To think that I could have destroyed what I have, all for what? Moments of pleasure? I could have either been destroyed by guilt, living a lie. Or broken a good woman that I care deeply about in the worst way possible. Please understand, I don't say this as looking down at you at all. I'm SO SO SO grateful that it didn't happen. I'm so glad I didn't.
> 
> Something you said before got to me. I don't want my kids to suffer from infidelity on either side. Yeah, some WS are unremorseful sociopaths, but most aren't. Most are people who made a horrible, horrible choice. I want to figure out how to keep people from going down this path.


I'm crying right now. Thank you so much for saying that. You really have no idea how much it means to me. And, thank you for sharing that about yourself. I think the more people share their own personal stories, the more it puts a human face onto the reality that we are all vulnerable at certain times in our lives. But, fear, shame and guilt often prevent people from reaching out to those who are in the best position to help them, so they suffer in silence. For some it is more than they know how to cope with and they fail, they fail their spouse, their children and themselves and it's devastating for all involved.... For others, like you, they find their strength before irreparable damage is done to the one they vowed to love, honor and cherish, forsaking all others. I, too, am SO SO SO grateful that you didn't fail. It's very inspiring to me. I wish that I hadn't.... but I did.... I failed. Knowing that, today, 10 months later, is the worst feeling that I have ever experienced in my life. And, I know that it doesn't begin to compare to the feelings that B1 has no choice but to bear. And, that devastates me even more. I want to be so much better than the person I allowed myself to become. And, if I can help someone else along the way.... well, I'd like to try to do that, too....


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By DD
> *How do you other BS just "let go" or whatever the phrasing is?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> You ask us BS people “How did you other BS just let go”
> I responded to your question in hopes I might be of some help.
> Even though it has been many years since I have experienced the pain that you have, I do empathize with you and CM. That kind of pain can be remembered with clarity when I read posts on TAM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BY DD
> Please don't attack me for my opinion and please do not try to convince me of anything. It will make me very uncomfortable. I am already pretty uncomfortable right now.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DD, I hope you did not take my post to you as an attack on you. It was a challenge and a challenge that I thought might help you and CM. I know that I am not a very diplomatic writer that is why they call me Mr. Blunt.
> 
> I can assure you that I will comply with your wishes and will not try to convince you of anything.
> 
> *I admire your blunt honesty and truly hope somehow that you and your family will get better. Never give up.
> 
> Blunt*
Click to expand...


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## margrace

larry.gray said:


> I just want to add, EI, you're truly a gift to TAM.


truer words were never written. 

and you're a gift, too, B1  i intended to add to the discussion of how i do it as a BS, but, honestly, B1 summed it up perfectly for me as well. ditto.

... and, p.s., i don't know where that will take me. i'm doing it on love and hope and faith at this point. i don't say this in a pollyanna-ish, magical-thinking, sunny-sunshine way. i mean it literally. i don't know. 

what i know is that we love each other, and that terrible wrongs were committed, and that the path was lost, and harm was done, and grievous human failings and weaknesses were revealed.

what comes after that? for me, it's trying as hard as i can *1)* unless/until i see that i'm the only one giving 110% (and then i need to stop) or *2)* unless/until i see that trying isn't working because WH can't or won't become an honest, transparent, accountable man with a reliable moral compass (and then i need to stop).


----------



## Robsia

We were watching Ted last night. When it got to the discussion of what John should do for Lori for their 4th anniversary of dating, I broke down.

WH asked me what was wrong.

I just remembered what he was doing on our 4th anniversary of dating. Not the actual night itself, he was with me, but that was smack dab in the middle of the A.

Which means that the anniversary of our first date is forever going to be tainted by that memory.


----------



## hopefulgirl

DevastatedDad said:


> I was afraid if my opinions about religion didn't agree w/ everyone else, I was going to get the 3rd degree about how I am wrong and what I need in my life.


DD, we are in the minority. It's sometimes difficult to be a non-believer when most people assume that everybody is a believer. I'm agnostic. There's just no proof. I'm happy for people who find comfort in their faith. It's been many years since I started thinking critically about it all and decided it didn't make any sense to me - I "dropped out" and never looked back. When we die, it's lights out, and that doesn't terrify me. Just wanted you to know you are not alone in your thinking on this.


----------



## B1

My memory of certain things is not that good, perhaps that's one thing that's helping me with all this. I have forgotten my Dday #1, but I have not forgotten my Dday #2, May 27th, then June 13th when I got the whole story. Our anniversary is June 23rd... I don't see it as ruined. It will actually be a time when I can look back and say I was with EI a year ago today. I can't do that right now 

She was with him this time last year. It's still so unbelievable to me that she had a boyfriend for over a year and I didn't know. Goes to show just how far apart we were and how far gone I was. She was truly done and had, in her mind, moved on. Looking back ALL the signs were there I was just so far gone that I didn't see them. 

That marriage is dead and buried. DD could you do that, bury your old marriage? could you somehow bury it and start over? 

Has CM written you emails, letters, texts, things you can read to reasure yourself. EI has written me lots of things mostly emails that I frequently go back to. I re-read them to help me. She has said all the right things but sometimes when you see them happy or laughing you wonder if they are still sorry. I think that's sometime why family gatherings can be tough, they put on a happy face and you see a lot of happiness and laughing, joking etc.. while you are there re-living the horror of what they did. Your in intense pain and they have the nerve to be laughing it up, enjoying themselves.

Been there, however, now I am happy when EI is happy. I know it doesn't mean she isn't sorry, that she wouldn't give anything to take it all back, she would. She has made it so clear that she is sorry but she isn't going to wallow in misery, that's NOT good for her or the kids, our marriage or me, and she's right, and that's healthy. I cannot get angry at her for being happy, that's what I want! and EI is becoming a happy person now..shes' still sorry, still regretful, still wished to God it didn't happen..but she's happy too about life, about us and our future and so am I.

EI will make a great wife, mother and friend. That's why I choose her. What she did doesn't equal her as a whole, it was only a very tiny part of her 48 years on the earth. What CM did does not equal her as a whole either DD, it really doesn't.

EI is a strong woman, I am becoming a strong man. My wounds have kept me down, I have been stuck licking them and caring for them...I am healing now, it's still not as fast as I would like but it's happening. I got off the couch yesterday and did some work around the house, I have not mentioned it much but I have been stuck in "couch mode". I have been healing but not real active.

I remember Dig saying once after around 10 months, I think regret told him he was just sitting all the time, not doing anything. It clicked and he got busy and I think it got better from there.

This whole A stuff, paralyzes you, even when your healing you are still somewhat paralyzed. I can't explain it, but I am sure the BS's here know what I mean. I am fighting that fight now, I am coming off the couch.

Sorry everyone, I know this post was all over the place. My ADD meds have not kicked in yet


----------



## B1

One thing I do like so much about this thread, is their are believers, non believers and those on the fence. ALL are respected and there is NO bashing of either. YOUR beliefs are yours and they are respected here.

Thanks again to all those who take the time to post here, share their stories and their wisdom.


----------



## Robsia

I was looking back at old emails, sent to me by WH when he was in the affair. He calls me 'babes' says things like "I can't wait to see you", and splatters them with kisses - more than he usually does. We normally sign off emails and texts with maybe 5 kisses. 

Some have 8, one has 11, one even has 31 - he obviously just held down the 'x' key. I thought it meant he loved me.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Robsia said:


> I was looking back at old emails, sent to me by WH when he was in the affair. He calls me 'babes' says things like "I can't wait to see you", and splatters them with kisses - more than he usually does. We normally sign off emails and texts with maybe 5 kisses.
> 
> Some have 8, one has 11, one even has 31 - he obviously just held down the 'x' key. I thought it meant he loved me.


Maybe he did still love you. I've seen some fWS say that even though they were involved with another they still loved their spouses. They were selfishly trying to fill a hole or a need. I think it's hard for those of us on the other side to understand how that's possible but enough people who I truly respect have said it for me to acknowledge the possibility. I think maybe the hardest part of R is not the rebuilding of trust, intimacy, or even the triggers. It's empathy and understanding of the one on the other side of the equation. I know in order to truly learn to forgive I had to admit that while I will most likely never completely understand how someone can commit infidelity I can accept that it happens to even good people. My ex is still a very bitter unhappy woman and while her infidelity almost killed me it did end up destroying her. I am no longer angry with her. Now I'm just very sad.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

bfree said:


> I was in the middle of posting this when I got banned. It may not be relevant anymore but darn it I worked hard to try to say the right words so I'm posting it anyway.
> 
> Mrs M, I know what's going on with Matt right now. The lessons he is assimilating and the painful experiences he's absorbing are difficult. Let me first say that the things he says right now about the future are coming from a place that he won't be in by that time. You should listen to him and acknowledge what he's saying but do not be discouraged. Things WILL change in that regard.
> 
> Here's a more important lesson that he is having difficulty grasping. In our culture women are considered to be better behaved than men. If you think about it you'll realize I'm correct. Who are considered aggressive...men. Who are always assumed to be the more likely to commit crimes...men. Who commits sexual assault...men. We're even indoctrinated into this belief system as children. Girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice. What are boys made of? But women have the same faults and weaknesses as men do. But since the perception is that they are better we tend to be more shocked and confused when the women in our lives make mistakes or do terrible things. I feel that it's grossly unfair for women to be held to a higher standard than men. But that's what is happening. The fact that you're human is what is giving Matt the most trouble. All his life he's been taught to revere women, to respect women, to pedestalize women. So he has two options. Option A, he reevaluates everything he has learned about women and relationships. He's a smart man so realistically he should be capable of making that transition. Option B, he stubbornly refuses to see reality and continues to holds the false belief that women are somehow always good. Of course if he chooses option B then he must also conclude that you are broken and irreparable. That he should find himself a "good woman." That would be tragic because he already has one.


Thanks bfree and welcome back! You were definitely missed. I appreciate your thoughts very much. Matt and I are doing ok so far this week. I announced the pregnancy on FB yesterday, and had lots of congratulations from people that don't know, and I know Matt texted with his siblings and stepson before I posted the news. I'm hoping that the well wishes will help me feel more happy/positive. I need that lately. Matt's been really good to me, we've been spending time together watching a new anime series he picked up, but I know that people who know about my affair are telling him he shouldn't be having a kid with me and he's dealing with a lot of shame around that. I don't know how to help with those feelings, since the last thing I ever expected in my life was an unplanned pregnancy. It's embarrassing for me too. This isn't supposed to happen to educated, responsible people. 

Ah well, another day to keep rolling along. My thoughts are with all of you, especially our new posters, hopeful girl and Robsia, and DD and CM.


----------



## old timer

Robsia said:


> I thought it meant he loved me.





bfree said:


> Maybe he did still love you. I've seen some fWS say that even though they were involved with another they still loved their spouses. They were selfishly trying to fill a hole or a need.


From a WH's perspective, yes, *robsia*, it is entirely possible that your WH still loved you.

During my 5 yr A - there was never one day that I wouldn't have taken a bullet for my W or do pretty much anything she asked of me. 

I know it's hard to fathom the "why" of it all. I have wrestled with it time and time again. In my particular case, it always comes back to selfishness and cowardice.

Selfishness, ie. "cake-eating". Cowardice - taking the easy way out rather than engaging my W in conflict about resolving the problems in our marriage. 

My cheating obviously doesn't help my case, but I never at any moment felt I did not love my wife. However, our relationship had evolved to a philos (friendship) type of love. Why? Because we avoided conflict, stopped talking about our problems and just acted like everything was "OK".


----------



## margrace

old timer said:


> From a WH's perspective, yes, *robsia*, it is entirely possible that your WH still loved you.... we avoided conflict, stopped talking about our problems and just acted like everything was "OK".


i think that's what we did too, OT


----------



## StarGazer101

margrace said:


> i think that's what we did too, OT


.... Certainly something we were guilty of


----------



## jh52

Mrs M wrote " I don't know how to help with those feelings, since the last thing I ever expected in my life was an unplanned pregnancy. It's embarrassing for me too. This isn't supposed to happen to educated, responsible people"

****************************************************************************************************************

Mrs M -- if life was black and white -- or if there was a text book that we all followed -- it would make all of our lives simple -- probably boring -- but simpler.

I am a glass is half full person -- always have been --- always will be --- no matter what -- so I believe this little person growing in you is for a reason -- I don't know why --- nobody knows why -- life is what it is --- maybe "she" will grow up to be President of the USA one day --- but you are pregnant -- you will be a mom again -- Matt will be a dad again --- that is what we know as of today.

The past is the past -- no matter how we try -- we can't change it --- no body can --- the only thing we can change is today --- and tomorrow if given the opportunity -- because tomorrow is never a certainty either.

Take care !!


----------



## hopefulgirl

Robsia, one of the reasons I was unaware of my WS's affair is because I felt he DID love me the whole time (he was in an EA for a few months and the PA spanned only a couple months - about 6 months total). It's very possible your WS did love you the whole time too. Like old timer.

They can lie about a lot of stuff. But if they try to act like they love you but really don't anymore, I don't think they could pull THAT off as easily.

My WS has diagnosed stuff going on - real anxiety problems, with a full blown panic attack that happened (interestingly) just a couple months before the A started. But a lot of waywards, let's face it, are just messed up, even if not in a diagnosable sense, when they're doing this stuff. 

As old timer said, "it's hard to fathom the 'why' of it all. I have wrestled with it time and time again." They don't fully understand what the heck is going on or all the reasons for their messed up behavior. But the behavior doesn't necessarily mean they ever STOPPED loving us. 

A WS can be doing messed up stuff - like my WS was ordering a bunch of hobby crap on the internet FOR HIMSELF - but still love their spouse. Some people think by definition they can't have sex with someone else and still "love" their spouse, but I don't believe that's true because my husband, like old timer, would have "taken a bullet" for me or would have been there for me if I'd had some medical emergency - I have no doubt. And he would have been scared out of his mind if my life was in danger - even though I'll never be 100% sure of anything ever again, I'm as close to 100% sure of this as I can be. 

Think back and ask yourself if your WS then (or now) would be devastated if you had a car accident. If so, then he did still love you, even if he was acting like a total idiot by having the A.

I'm NOT religious, but I do like the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" idea. My WS is a person who's helped a lot of people, and I'm a person who's made a lot of mistakes. I would hate to walk away without giving it a chance, since we're both imperfect people who have both tried in our own way to make the world a better place, and since we both do love each other. And I do believe he DID love me even when he was being a boneheaded, anxiety-driven, messed up cheater. Just like he loved me when he ordered all that crap for HIM. (He handed me his credit cards yesterday, to reduce temptation. How about that?)


----------



## EI

old timer said:


> My cheating obviously doesn't help my case, but I never at any moment felt I did not love my wife. However, our relationship had evolved to a philos (friendship) type of love. Why? Because we avoided conflict, stopped talking about our problems and just acted like everything was "OK".





margrace said:


> i think that's what we did too, OT





StarGazer101 said:


> .... Certainly something we were guilty of


Well, then I think you guys are waaay ahead of the game.  B1 and I didn't even "like" each other, anymore..... We weren't even friends.... or even pleasant roommates..... just silently (at best) co-existing under the same roof. Our biggest interaction involved commiserating about our finances and the responsibilities of raising 5 children..... grown or not.... they're still a huge responsibility..... particularly, as they are transitioning from childhood to young adulthood .

That isn't an exaggeration..... that was our life for a few years prior to my A. And, it had been steadily declining into that state for several years before that. It's unfathomable to me that we were still in that place less than a year ago. It is absolutely unbelievable. I don't know about others who are in reconciliation, but for me, the TAM doctrine regarding the old marriage being dead and having to build a new one rings completely true for us. Obviously, there was some part of the old marriage that was still viable, still valuable to us for us to even be willing to try again. We've talked about it recently. If you asked us how we managed to get through those early months last summer..... we don't know. We both knew that going back to the way things were before my A was not an option for either of us. The phrase that I had coined to describe those years in our life was "cesspool of misery." I was determined to never swim in that again. 

Yesterday something came up at home. It was one of those things that, pre-A, would have caused the two us to break our silence and erupt into yelling, screaming, crying and cursing on my part and B1 becoming even more frustrated, angry, sullen and withdrawn. Then, we would have one of those conversations that we had already had a thousand times before (well, mostly, I had the conversation and B1 listened with an exasperated look on his face.)  But, nothing would ever change.... and more and more resentment and hostility would build inside of me and more and more distance, resignation and defeat would set in for B1. The truth is, the issue, yesterday, didn't have a single thing to do with either of us.... that had simply become our standard method of problem solving. Oftentimes, I would tell B1 that he needed to handle an issue at home or with one of the kids. Then, if he didn't handle it fast enough or handle it the way that I wanted him to, I would "take over" the project.... but, I would be bitter about it. And, everyone in the house knew it.

So, yesterday, I went downstairs...... B1 is the only one reading this that knows exactly what that means.... but, let's just say that I sent B1, and our daughter... who is married and no longer lives at home with us, a text that simply read "I went downstairs today." That put the fear of God into both of them. I got a text back from B1 that said, "I'll handle it when I get home from work." I texted back, "Okay."  All I know is that within minutes, our 17 y/o son walked into the front door (he had spent the night with a friend down the street) and our 20 y/o son, who works nights, and was still sleeping, were both up and moving. When B1 got home from work he continued to handle the situation until it was completely under control. That is so far removed from how that exact same situation would have played out a year ago. My love and respect for B1 continues to grow and overflow every single day. 

We have both learned so much about ourselves and one another in the last year. I would give anything that I own if such a catastrophic event had not preceded our decision to begin fixing what was broken within ourselves and in our marriage. B1 and I both share in the responsibility for the deplorable state that our marriage had become. But I, alone, am responsible for choosing to have an affair..... just me.... no one else. It was the single worst decision that I have ever made in my life. Looking back, now, I can see that nothing good came from that... NOTHING. Repairing ourselves, our lives and our marriage was the single best decision that either of us have ever made. I am absolutely astounded with how far we have come. Yes, there is still hurt... for both of us. But, today, with an enormous amount of "work" on both of our parts, our happiness and our hope overrides our hurt. What a difference less than a year has made.


----------



## EI

hopefulgirl said:


> I'm NOT religious, but I do like the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" idea. My WS is a person who's helped a lot of people, and I'm a person who's made a lot of mistakes. I would hate to walk away without giving it a chance, since we're both imperfect people who have both tried in our own way to make the world a better place, and since we both do love each other. And I do believe he DID love me even when he was being a boneheaded, anxiety-driven, messed up cheater. Just like he loved me when he ordered all that crap for HIM. * (He handed me his credit cards yesterday, to reduce temptation. How about that?)*


*Excellent! *


----------



## B1

HG touched on something I want to expand on. She said her ws had helped a lot of people. One of the reasons we BS's do stick it out, is because we have seen our WS do good, care, love, be compassionate. This is something no one on this board has seen. We have seen the good in them firsthand, we know its there. They are not evil overall bad people. 
They are mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, daughters, sons...they are human beings who love, laugh and make a difference in this world. and as a matter of fact they do far more good than bad, just like the rest of us.

Let he who has no sin cast the first stone.
this is one of my favorite versus. And a fitting one for this thread. Thank you HG that was a great post and an eye opener.


----------



## larry.gray

I hope this makes you laugh DD.










(I hope it doesn't offend anybody else)


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Hi, everybody! Well, once again I stopped getting email alerts on your posts, so don't know what's going on. If anyone would be willing to PM me with Cliff Notes on how our couples are doing, I'd be grateful.

As far as up here in the almost-no-longer-frozen-tundra (there's still a few inches of snow left in patches, but it will be gone soon), things are good. W has shown remorse, and took the important step of truly being remorseful for making her trip. Yes, she is still in contact with OM on a business basis, and I have (mostly) come to terms with this. I cannot work in a world of absolutes where she cannot carry on business that is important to our livelihood, and it's just not that important to me any more.

This may be because *I* am doing very well on my own, thank you - yes, we are still married, still in love, and now making progress in the sex/intimacy area, too. But it now appears this was always about me, about how I had grown so dependent upon her, her love and her attention. Sometimes (should I be ashamed to say this?) it's as if I'm leading my own life, and she is there when it works for both of us. When I need to "do my thing," she can come along, or work things in her own world, as she is very busy, too. 

I am as happy as I can ever remember being, which is amazing, as just a couple months ago I was at the lowest low of my life. Yes, I am in a mild manic phase right now, and my sleep is MAJORLY fvcked up, but I also have loads of energy, and am getting SO much done. I am starting work on my first album, after producing for and playing on so many others'. This will be good. And yeah, when it comes out, you will likely see a few lines you recognize from posts here! <SMILE>

I'll take any and all questions, and again, would love to hear privately from any of you guys. You have been my bestest friends through the worst crisis in my life, and I am SO grateful for all of you.

God bless, 
Bobka


----------



## happyman64

> but I know that people who know about my affair are telling him he shouldn't be having a kid with me and he's dealing with a lot of shame around that. I don't know how to help with those feelings, since the last thing I ever expected in my life was an unplanned pregnancy. *It's embarrassing for me too. This isn't supposed to happen to educated, responsible people.*


Many things are not supposed to happen educated, responsible people but they do Mrs. M.

I speak from experience......

And I am not surprised Matt feels shame. But he shouldn't. And I am sure you are supportive of him during this time as he has been supportive of you.

Jut do not allow you two to backslide or rugsweep your troubles away.

Deal with them.

And get ready for that 2nd kid. A new child could be a blessing for you two if you both allow it to be.

HM64


----------



## B1

Alright HSE, EI and I were talking about you just the other day. Glad YOU are doing well. Glad the intimacy thing is improving. 
So glad to hear you are working on an album, keep us posted on that.
Glad you posted an update for us.


----------



## old timer

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I am starting work on my first album, after producing for and playing on so many others'. This will be good. And yeah, when it comes out, you will likely see a few lines you recognize from posts here! <SMILE>
> 
> God bless,
> Bobka


I will expect some you-tube vids as well

:smthumbup:


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey guys, I'm trying real hard to catch up here. I finally have my new phone. wow Bobka was just thinking about you. hope things are ok with you CM and DD. I am really out of the loop of what's going on. I've missed you guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> Oh CSS, It's a total mess. CM caught me masturbating to a photo of Justin Bieber so she went to EI's house all freaked out and as she pulled up, EI comes running out of the house holding a bloody chain saw, CM enters the house and half the people on this thread were piled up with various amounts of skin missing. I think EI was building some sort of human flesh hang glider. She is like leonardo da vinci meats Ed Gein.
> 
> Turns out EI had slaughtered most of the people on this thread months ago and has been posting as them all this time.
> 
> Meanwhile EI wanders off into the woods with her chainsaw mumbling something to herself about maximum character limitations in internet forum posts.
> 
> We haven't heard from CM since but I believe she feels bad that EI is missing and so she has taken over posting as all of the TAM members in this reconciliation thread.
> 
> Its fvckin weird.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh sh!t. I hope I didn't make anyone trigger with that bloody chainsaw bit.
> 
> 
> mmmmmmm Beiber...


That wasn't supposed to be revealed until September 13th, *FRIDAY, * September 13th......... 

Now, you have no other option, as you are the only "remaining" survivor in this reconciliation thread, (BTW......CM, like "Fireplaces" in "The Santa Clause," will no longer be a problem ) YOU will now have to write *every post* in this thread......* every day*. You must write all of the comments and then you must write all of the responses to them, as well. Bwah Ha Ha Ha 

*FYI...... THERE ARE NO MAXIMUM CHARACTER LIMITATIONS!!!* 



_EI wanders backs into the woods singing "E - I - E - I - Oooooo"_


----------



## ChangingMe

Hahaha! EI, did you know September 13 is my birthday? I don't remember telling you that, but it really is!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike11

DevastatedDad said:


> Oh CSS, It's a total mess. CM caught me masturbating to a photo of Justin Bieber so she went to EI's house all freaked out and as she pulled up, EI comes running out of the house holding a bloody chain saw, CM enters the house and half the people on this thread were piled up with various amounts of skin missing. I think EI was building some sort of human flesh hang glider. She is like leonardo da vinci meats Ed Gein.
> 
> Turns out EI had slaughtered most of the people on this thread months ago and has been posting as them all this time.
> 
> Meanwhile EI wanders off into the woods with her chainsaw mumbling something to herself about maximum character limitations in internet forum posts.
> 
> We haven't heard from CM since but I believe she feels bad that EI is missing and so she has taken over posting as all of the TAM members in this reconciliation thread.
> 
> Its fvckin weird.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh sh!t. I hope I didn't make anyone trigger with that bloody chainsaw bit.
> 
> 
> mmmmmmm Beiber...


:lol: Priceless


----------



## Rookie4

Mike11 said:


> :lol: Priceless


See, this is exactly why I pay no attention whatsoever to pop culture. I barely know who Justin Bieber is, and I certainly don't know what he does. I'm assuming he is on a reality show or something. I can proudly say that I have NEVER watched a single reality show, and pop music makes me nauseous. I came to the conclusion about 15 years ago that pop culture is for halfwits, and will only watch sporting events, news/history channels and National Geographic. My Daughters talked about something called Twilight and somebody named Pink, and I thought they meant the old Twilight Zone and the color. They looked at me as if I was a Martian.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

old timer said:


> I will expect some you-tube vids as well
> 
> :smthumbup:


EVERYBODY wants YouTube vids now! I guess I'm old-school (and I'd figure you'd be, too, OT), and figure the music should stand on its own. But, due to popular demand, I imagine I'll have to do at least ONE video so that people can see my ugly mug. Will keep y'all posted.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Okay, so I'm trying to catch up with "Reconciliation...", right? I see this, quoted in Mike11's post (Hi, Mike, I don't know you yet, but welcome!)

"Originally Posted by DevastatedDad View Post:

Oh CSS, It's a total mess. CM caught me masturbating to a photo of Justin Bieber so she went to EI's house all freaked out and as she pulled up, EI comes running out of the house holding a bloody chain saw, CM enters the house and half the..."

AND READ TO ABOUT HERE BEFORE I FIGURE OUT DD IS DESCRIBING A DREAM!

Thought I had REALLY missed a lot. And then had a great laugh. As a matter of fact, I LOL'd out loud! (I love saying that, 'cause it's so STUPID!)

You guys rock. I'm truly sorry that I still see such pain here. I think I need to pray longer and harder. And I will.


----------



## daisygirl 41

I'm not allowed to say LOL!
My daughter banned me. Says I'm too old!! Really??

Hi everyone. Hope you're all ok.
Things are good here. Had my birthday on Tuesday. Hubby was wonderful. Attentive and giving all day. We had a lovely walk on the beach and a picnic and last night we went to see a band, which was great, we haven't done that in such a long time. We had a lot of fun!

Daisygirl 41 is now 43!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm not allowed to say LOL!
> My daughter banned me. Says I'm too old!! Really??
> 
> Hi everyone. Hope you're all ok.
> Things are good here. Had my birthday on Tuesday. Hubby was wonderful. Attentive and giving all day. We had a lovely walk on the beach and a picnic and last night we went to see a band, which was great, we haven't done that in such a long time. We had a lot of fun!
> 
> Daisygirl 41 is now 43!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you allowed to ROFL?

Maybe you should be "DaisyLady." Well, you're always a lady around here, anyhow. "She's always a woman to me..." (Billy Joel)

BTW (that means "By the way" <GRIN>), the thought of you walking down a beach while I'm still trying to avoid piles of hardened (but melting) snow every time I back out of my driveway is hurtful! Stop talking about that! 

JK. You rock the beach, AND your marriage, okay? Miss you guys!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Rookie4 said:


> See, this is exactly why I pay no attention whatsoever to pop culture. ... My Daughters talked about something called Twilight and somebody named Pink, and I thought they meant the old Twilight Zone and the color. They looked at me as if I was a Martian.


Dude, you ARE a Martian!


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Are you allowed to ROFL?
> 
> Maybe you should be "DaisyLady." Well, you're always a lady around here, anyhow. "She's always a woman to me..." (Billy Joel)
> 
> BTW (that means "By the way" <GRIN>), the thought of you walking down a beach while I'm still trying to avoid piles of hardened (but melting) snow every time I back out of my driveway is hurtful! Stop talking about that!
> 
> JK. You rock the beach, AND your marriage, okay? Miss you guys!


No I'm not Allowed ROFL either. She gave me a list of ten words that I'm too old for!!!

Oh and just to make you feel better, we were wrapped up warm for our walk on the beach. It's one of the Coldest months of March for about 50 years in the UK and its getting colder! Brrrrrr!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

daisygirl 41 said:


> No I'm not Allowed ROFL either. She gave me a list of ten words that I'm too old for!!!
> 
> Oh and just to make you feel better, we were wrapped up warm for our walk on the beach. It's one of the Coldest months of March for about 50 years in the UK and its getting colder! Brrrrrr!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, I feel better on two counts: a) that it's cold there and b) that you're in the UK. In my mind, I had you pegged as an Aussie.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Okay, I feel better on two counts: a) that it's cold there and b) that you're in the UK. In my mind, I had you pegged as an Aussie.


Ha ha! Nope I'm freezing in the UK!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm not allowed to say LOL!
> My daughter banned me. Says I'm too old!! Really??
> 
> Hi everyone. Hope you're all ok.
> Things are good here. Had my birthday on Tuesday. Hubby was wonderful. Attentive and giving all day. We had a lovely walk on the beach and a picnic and last night we went to see a band, which was great, we haven't done that in such a long time. We had a lot of fun!
> 
> Daisygirl 41 is now 43!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


happy belated birthday, daisy dear! loved hearing about your wonderful day


----------



## calvin

Justin Bieber DD? Amatuer,I do it to a life size poster of the Back Street Boyz.
We were going to have lunch with EI in a couple weeks!
Oh well,when your times up its up,had a good ride.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

I walk on the beach every day since we got our little doggie. I've walked on the beach in a snowstorm, which was interesting!

But it's nice when it's sunny and calm, even if it is cold. Problem is, I think far too much when I'm walking the dog, I end up getting myself upset.


----------



## CantSitStill

LOL that was funny DD, Im hoping it gets warm enough for a walk with the dog today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

I am now terribly sorry for wanting and asking for a hang glider 

Thanks DD I needed that today, this morning I had a bad bad trigger and this helped...


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm not allowed to say LOL!
> My daughter banned me. Says I'm too old!! Really??
> 
> Hi everyone. Hope you're all ok.
> Things are good here. Had my birthday on Tuesday. Hubby was wonderful. Attentive and giving all day. We had a lovely walk on the beach and a picnic and last night we went to see a band, which was great, we haven't done that in such a long time. We had a lot of fun!
> 
> Daisygirl 41 is now 43!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ha, didn't realize that was what 41 stands for  feels nice top be among youngsters


----------



## Rookie4

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Dude, you ARE a Martian!


Yep, in my 40's and already a dinosaur.


----------



## calvin

I hate it when CSS is home by herself,I can't help but wonder if she is texting someone while I'm at work,it drives me nuts.
I don't think she would but its possible,I knew this crap would bother me if I decided to R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

calvin said:


> I hate it when CSS is home by herself,I can't help but wonder if she is texting someone while I'm at work,it drives me nuts.
> I don't think she would but its possible,I knew this crap would bother me if I decided to R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why don't you put something on her phone so you can see what she's doing? DD has something that gives him a list of all my texts. I think he logs in to see it, so it's only there if you feel the need to check (I could be wrong; you can check with him). 

It's sad to have to do this, but I am for anything that might give a BS a little piece of mind. Plus, it saves me having to relay info sometimes -I just tell him to go read my texts! :rofl:


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> I know this might not be healthy but if it puts your minds at ease, for a few bucks, you can install a tracker on her phone.
> 
> I haven't snooped recently but if I get concerned, I can read anything CM sends / receives.
> 
> Again, not healthy but probably all WWs need to comply with a request to be tracked if it eases BS mind.
> 
> What I have learned form having this access is her texts at this time are fairly innocuous, but you will likely read junk that you don't want to think about.
> 
> Early on, I am snooping and reading txt from our nanny having her "monthly visitor" and needing to borrow feminine hygiene products and thinking I might just rather be paranoid.


Damn, DD beat me to it! 

And I personally don't mind him having this access at all. I don't see where any fWS would -if/when he does choose to check, then, like he said, he can see there is nothing going on. Well, except for loaning tampons to the nanny!


----------



## ChangingMe

BTW, happy birthday, DG! Glad it was a good day! 



DD and I had a good night last night. At least I thought so. He seemed to enjoy himself too though. We needed it. So grateful.


----------



## calvin

Then there's the house phone also,she gave him our number.
God am I going to have to do VARS and GPS trackers also? She would meet him around town.
She could get a track phone,there are all kinds of ways to communicate.
Either I try to tarck her every move or I just try and trust.
Either way its going to drive me nuts,lose,lose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Calvin, I think it's a combination of controlling what you can, weighing the actions of your spouse since DDay, and trusting/accepting the rest. 

Meaning:
If the cell is a concern, put a tracker on it. Get rid of the house phone if that helps. Saves a few bucks too. 

Look at CSS's actions since DDay (or since you brought her home soon after). Has she attempted ANY contact with him? Does she show any interest/respect/good feelings towards this loser? I know she used to, but that wasn't the question. Has she since early last year? Has she given you ANY reason to think that she would choose to contact him?

You are right; you can't control everything, so at some point you have to accept that and try to trust a bit. And I think you do that with the mindset of: She more than likely isn't going to contact him, but if she does, she knows I will be gone. She is making that choice with a clear head, and I have to be willing to let her go at that point. 

Not sure if this helps; I know I am on CSS's side of things, but that is how it seems to break down in my head. Sorry you are struggling today. She loves you though. And you love her.


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> The only names I see in her contact list that I don't recognize are these:
> James Big O Wilson
> Mark StrongHands
> David LongShaft
> Charlie "HandCuffs" Malone
> Anal Mike
> Kyle Thrustmaster Johnson
> and 8 Hour Nick
> 
> But nothing really stands out as a red flag at this point.


Uh, DD, I can explain. . . 
Those are my cousins. I mean clients. I mean part of that knitting circle I joined. Nothing to worry about -trust me! :smthumbup:


----------



## Robsia

Lolz - good that you have a sense of humour over it. Not quite there yet with us.

Quite often when WH was relaying something he had "told me earlier" and I couldn't remember him telling me earlier, I used to say, jokingly, "Oh it was probably your other woman that you told!"

Now, it appears that actually may have been the case, and I can now never use that line again without thinking of her.


----------



## ChangingMe

Robsia said:


> Lolz - good that you have a sense of humour over it. Not quite there yet with us.
> 
> Quite often when WH was relaying something he had "told me earlier" and I couldn't remember him telling me earlier, I used to say, jokingly, "Oh it was probably your other woman that you told!"
> 
> Now, it appears that actually may have been the case, and I can now never use that line again without thinking of her.


Sorry, Robsia.  Depends on the day with us. DD and I both have good senses of humor & have always found each other extremely funny (I mean, I'm clearly the funnier one, but he does ok at times). We have always made inappropriate jokes, but now it's not so easy. It's hard to know when he is trying to be hurtful or when he is trying to be funny. Some days are definitely easier than others. I hope that they continue to get easier and the humor comes back regularly. 

I hope the same for the two of you.


----------



## ChangingMe

Why am I on here? I have a huge fundraiser this evening and should totally be getting ready for it! 

Signing off, this is CM, the Queen of Procrastination


----------



## CantSitStill

honey you can go to our at&t account and view all activity of calls and texts. also i told you to get VARs it would help ease your mind which will make us both happy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

This phone really does seem like a downgrade instead of an upgrade. shoulda went with the smart phone. i have to log in every time i come here grrr
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



Robsia said:


> Lolz - good that you have a sense of humour over it. Not quite there yet with us.
> 
> Quite often when WH was relaying something he had "told me earlier" and I couldn't remember him telling me earlier, I used to say, jokingly, "Oh it was probably your other woman that you told!"
> 
> Now, it appears that actually may have been the case, and I can now never use that line again without thinking of her.


I used too call my wife on my way home from work, sometimes saying the joke "honey, I'm on my way home, time to tell the postman to get out..." Not funny anymore, not that OM was a postman, but still.


----------



## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> Feel the need to say this.
> *I don't know who all here talks/texts to CM and whether you are worried about confidentiality.*
> 
> The tool sorts by contact name. If I recognize the name no need to click on it. Early on I saw texts between some of you and her prior to her adding you as contacts to her phone because I Just saw texts from a number but no name.


Feel the need to say this. 
I am having trust issues with you, DD, because had you NOT been monitoring CM's texts with "us," you would never have become suspicious about the chain saw and the hang glider to begin with.


----------



## Robsia

*Re: Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> I used too call my wife on my way home from work, sometimes saying the joke "honey, I'm on my way home, time to tell the postman to get out..." Not funny anymore, not that OM was a postman, but still.


Yup - get that totally.

Sometimes it's hard just falling back into the normal bicker/banter that we have. Because when I'm happy and relaxed with him, and ENJOYING myself FGS, I suddenly remember what he did. Sometimes there isn't even a trigger, simply being with him is the trigger. Then I go distant and quiet. He asks me what's wrong. My response now is "Nothing new" meaning that I'm thinking about it again, which happens a lot. Then he hugs me, but our happy mood has been punctured. I sometimes wonder if we'll ever get it back.

Sorry to drag the mood of the thread down


----------



## B1

*Re: Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



Robsia said:


> Yup - get that totally.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard just falling back into the normal bicker/banter that we have. Because when I'm happy and relaxed with him, and ENJOYING myself FGS, I suddenly remember what he did. Sometimes there isn't even a trigger, simply being with him is the trigger. Then I go distant and quiet. He asks me what's wrong. My response now is "Nothing new" meaning that I'm thinking about it again, which happens a lot. Then he hugs me, but our happy mood has been punctured. I sometimes wonder if we'll ever get it back.
> 
> Sorry to drag the mood of the thread down


I get this, I would become distant and quiet also. When EI would ask how I was doing I usually say, same ol' same ol', nothing new. Which, as you said, meant I was thinking about IT. No real trigger, it just pops in your head sometimes and you just have to deal with it.
But in dealing with the thoughts it definitely changes the mood.

And...yes, you will get it back, TIME, it comes back with time.


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> honey you can go to our at&t account and view all activity of calls and texts. also i told you to get VARs it would help ease your mind which will make us both happy
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly, if you and Calvin, both, think that a VAR and a GPS tracker would give him peace of mind, thus giving you peace of mind, as well, then you could get them installed, yourself. One of the things that I have tried to do my best at is being pro-active instead of reactive about all of this. In the first few weeks after D-Day, B1 asked about our land line phone records. They aren't available online like cell phone records are. They have to be ordered. So, I went ahead and ordered them myself. When they came in I took a yellow highlighter and highlighted *every* number associated with xOM. B1 would have only recognized one of them. There were three; cell, home and work. I wrote notes in the margin detailing every single thing I could recall about those conversations. At our next MC session I took the records with me and handed them to Rich. He wasn't ready to look at them. The MC suggested that I give them to the MC to shred. I said, "No, we'll keep them until B1 is ready to look at them." A few weeks later, I gently suggested that we go ahead and work through them. We did, it was difficult, but it was done.... line by line. THEN, we shredded them. They are not something I want lying around to be found by our children some day in the future after we're gone. Although our children know.... they don't need to be subjected to that.... it's horrible enough that B1 has been.

I'm just suggesting that when you become aware that something might be a trigger, think ahead and do whatever you can to help avoid it or lessen it if you can. Not every trigger can be avoided. Last summer we bought a car at a dealership not far from where the xOM lives. When I realized that B1's mood had changed, I reached over and took his hand and asked him how he was feeling. Don't avoid the conversation thinking it's best not to bring it up. I find that it has been best for us not to avoid the elephant in the room, but to acknowledge it and deal with it. I honestly think, that for the most part, the elephant in the room is much smaller than it used to be. I look forward to the day when B1 opens the front door and kicks the elephant right out on his a$$ never to be thought of again. But, until such time that B1 is ready and able, we'll keep dealing with "it."


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Either way its going to drive me nuts,lose,lose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Too late, Calvin. <GRIN>


----------



## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> *I know this might not be healthy *but if it puts your minds at ease, for a few bucks, you can install a tracker on her phone.
> 
> I haven't snooped recently but if I get concerned, I can read anything CM sends / receives.
> 
> *Again, not healthy *but probably all WWs need to comply with a request to be tracked if it eases BS mind.



_I don't think it's "not healthy." I think it's a "normal" response to an "abnormal" situational._


----------



## bfree

You're right EI, the fWS being proactive does help a lot.

Btw DD, I'm Charlie Handcuffs Malone


----------



## CantSitStill

I keep getting booted off into the log in screen. Frustrating, i am tired of re logging in
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



DevastatedDad said:


> Ewe... Read your texts just now...
> A sheep? Really???


What can I say. I'm baaaaaaaaaad.

And you wouldn't believe how hard it is to get cuffs on a lamb.


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm not allowed to say LOL!
> My daughter banned me. Says I'm too old!! Really??
> 
> Hi everyone. Hope you're all ok.
> Things are good here. Had my birthday on Tuesday. Hubby was wonderful. Attentive and giving all day. We had a lovely walk on the beach and a picnic and last night we went to see a band, which was great, we haven't done that in such a long time. We had a lot of fun!
> 
> Daisygirl 41 is now 43!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy belated Birthday, Daisygirl! It sounds like you had a perfectly lovely day!


----------



## bfree

I missed saying happy birthday to DG? Shoot.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!


----------



## calvin

Happy birthday Dg,hope its a good one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Happy Birthday DG !!


----------



## jh52

Calvin --- you and CSS should be doing whatever it takes to get you through this --- VAR, phone records, etc.

Take care ----


----------



## daisygirl 41

You didn't miss it bfree, i to0k a break for a couple of days.
Glad to see you back safe and sound.

Thank you all for your birthday wishes


----------



## calvin

What do you do when it comes to trust? I used to have blind trust in CSS,I don't think I'll ever have that again.
CSS is way too trusting,if someone says something to her,she takes it as a fact.
Its weird,I'll be working and out of the blue I wonder if she's texting or talking to the loser or someone else,it just comes out of no where.
I pretty much go by what she says,that bit me in the ass already.
My heads all f'ed up,hate this crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> What do you do when it comes to trust? I used to have blind trust in CSS,I don't think I'll ever have that again.
> CSS is way too trusting,if someone says something to her,she takes it as a fact.
> Its weird,I'll be working and out of the blue I wonder if she's texting or talking to the loser or someone else,it just comes out of no where.
> I pretty much go by what she says,that bit me in the ass already.
> My heads all f'ed up,hate this crap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I struggled with trust issues for a long time. What I finally realized was that I can't control what anyone else does. I can only control me. So I realized it's not really a matter of trust, it's a matter of confidence that regardless of what happens I will be fine. If you think about it we blindly trust people every day. If you drive you trust that the other drivers aren't going to smash into you. You trust the guy who makes your coffee to not spit in it. You trust your coworkers not to take a 2x4 to the back of your head. If you think about it you trust a lot of strangers every day. What bothers you is that you have to think about trust when it comes to the one person you shouldn't have to think about it. That's the wrong way to think because that one person is the one you should trust because she knows how much she hurry you and she knows what the implications are if she does it again. If I were in your position if trust CSS more than if trust your car mechanic or anyone else.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Calvin, it just takes time but it does come back eventually. I dont think any of us will have blind trust ever again, but i wonder sometimes if thats such a bad thing.

I hardly ever check Hs phone now because he has done and still does everything he can to put my mind at rest. 

Remember, my H still works with the ex OW but he is totally transparent and will answer any worries i have, on a daily basis, if needed. He knows i check up on him through mutual colleagues and he has no problem with it.

The thing that has helped me the most though is realizing that if he starts the A with her again, its out of my control, but i know all the signs to look out for now, my eyes are completely open and if he chooses that path again, hes gone and he knows it.


----------



## calvin

Much better,me and CSS are going to go get some ice cream and rent a movie,I'm running out of time,have to be up at 2:30.
I'm not doing VARs or try to track her.
My spiderbilly senses are enough,they were right last time I know when somethings up.
I just didn't want to believe it last year.
Ok,any movies I should get?
I think something with lots of shooting,zombies and stuff blowing up.
Oh and sex in it,got to have a little romance.
Wonder what sex with a zombie would be like??
Oh I already know!! Oh yes I did!!

Uh oh........help me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

DevastatedDad said:


> Feel the need to say this.
> I don't know who all here talks/texts to CM and whether you are worried about confidentiality.
> 
> The tool sorts by contact name. If I recognize the name no need to click on it. Early on I saw texts between some of you and her prior to her adding you as contacts to her phone because I Just saw texts from a number but no name.
> 
> Most of you are in her phone by name now and I need not pry there
> 
> My concern would be if I see texts coming from a male.
> I just did a quick scan, and everything seems on the up and up. I see some of our friends names, family, some of your names.
> 
> The only names I see in her contact list that I don't recognize are these:
> James Big O Wilson
> Mark StrongHands
> David LongShaft
> Charlie "HandCuffs" Malone
> Anal Mike
> Kyle Thrustmaster Johnson
> and 8 Hour Nick
> 
> But nothing really stands out as a red flag at this point.


You have to let us Tammers know when you are hitting the road with your Stand Up routine.

You are cracking me up......


----------



## calvin

Got Killing The Softly,looks good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

DevastatedDad said:


> Early on, I am snooping and reading txt from our nanny having her "monthly visitor" and needing to borrow feminine hygiene products and thinking I might just rather be paranoid.


Oh wait until you're reading your wife and daughter banter back and forth about that!


----------



## Acabado

calvin said:


> What do you do when it comes to trust? I used to have blind trust in CSS,I don't think I'll ever have that again.


Blind trust is overrated. There's such a thing as "healthy" distrust, it help us to stay the course, present, not taking anything for granted. Blind trust can leave us indeed blind.
It aplies to everything, from marriage to job.
It's OK not having blind trust. Really.


----------



## larry.gray

CantSitStill said:


> I keep getting booted off into the log in screen. Frustrating, i am tired of re logging in
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Try clicking the "remember me" box.


----------



## larry.gray

bfree said:


> You're right EI, the fWS being proactive does help a lot.
> 
> Btw DD, I'm Charlie Handcuffs Malone


Well since we're fessing up, I'm David LongShaft but my friends call me 8 hour nick.


----------



## ChangingMe

I notice none of you guys want to claim ” Anal Mike!”
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrQuatto

calvin said:


> What do you do when it comes to trust? I used to have blind trust in CSS,I don't think I'll ever have that again.
> CSS is way too trusting,if someone says something to her,she takes it as a fact.
> Its weird,I'll be working and out of the blue I wonder if she's texting or talking to the loser or someone else,it just comes out of no where.
> I pretty much go by what she says,that bit me in the ass already.
> My heads all f'ed up,hate this crap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's likely you never will. I'm 4.5 yeas thru R and it still creeps in. Very much fewer and farther between but it does creep in and. Think it always will. Trust destroyed is a hard lesson that is never truly forgotten.

Q~


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

ChangingMe said:


> I notice none of you guys want to claim ” Anal Mike!”
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, actually, outside of TAM, most of my friends call me Michelle...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

MrQuatto said:


> It's likely you never will. I'm 4.5 yeas thru R and it still creeps in. Very much fewer and farther between but it does creep in and. Think it always will. Trust destroyed is a hard lesson that is never truly forgotten.
> 
> Q~


Ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I was called. Larry Knothole.
Don't want to explain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Dark Skies...1 channel. Ch

Great flick!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LetDownNTX

SomedayDig said:


> Dark Skies...1 channel. Ch
> 
> Great flick!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yay , you're back! Welcome back!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It's been a good evening, been cuddling and watching a movie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> It's been a good evening, been cuddling and watching a movie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her and the dog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Her and the dog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok Rover


----------



## CantSitStill

give it to me doggie style Mr Dog lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> EVERYBODY wants YouTube vids now! I guess I'm old-school (and I'd figure you'd be, too, OT), and figure the music should stand on its own. But, due to popular demand, I imagine I'll have to do at least ONE video so that people can see my ugly mug. Will keep y'all posted.


I'm old school, but love me some YouTube.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

You bunch a pervs are destroyin' a perfectly respectable thread....... I'm reportin' the whole bunch a ya to the mods......  

And just what is it that B,... er, I mean Kyle Thrustmaster Johnson wants with CM, anyway? :scratchhead:


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> You bunch a pervs are destroyin' a perfectly respectable thread....... I'm reportin' the whole bunch a ya to the mods......
> 
> And just what is it that B,... er, I mean Kyle Thrustmaster Johnson wants with CM, anyway? :scratchhead:


This thread never was respectable,I used to be so innocent and pure as the driven snow til I came here.
Now I'm a perv,not that its a bad thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Omg just dared to wander into my 18 year old sons bedroom. I managed to make it out alive!
How can anyone make so much mess just playing his guitar and Xbox!!!
I need a drink!
Is it wine o clock yet!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> This thread never was respectable,I used to be so innocent and pure as the driven snow til I came here.
> Now I'm a perv,not that its a bad thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being a perv is not a bad thing. All the best people are.


----------



## jh52

daisygirl 41 said:


> Omg just dared to wander into my 18 year old sons bedroom. I managed to make it out alive!
> How can anyone make so much mess just playing his guitar and Xbox!!!
> I need a drink!
> Is it wine o clock yet!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's always "wine o'clock" somwhere !!:smthumbup:


----------



## MattMatt

Juicer said:


> DD, I know that feeling. Wishing to just make the emotional storm go away. Wanting it all to just stop. Feeling the swirling emotions of a racing heart and a revolted stomach at the same time.
> A horrible place to be.
> 
> I don't know those of you who know or who don't know, but I got divorced. I don't want to get into the who's or the why's right now.
> But I did it. And I fueled my anger to do it.
> And that rage doesn't go away. It stays with you, and builds off you. It is like a monster hiding and growing in the shadows, and until you bring it out into the light and deal with it, it keeps growing, until, you can no longer hide it.
> 
> And I have been feeling it build up lately. Like a ticking time-bomb just waiting to go off.
> This week I blew up on a friend of mine. He called, not wanting to talk about anything big or emotional, just asked me how my bracket was doing. And that set me off.
> 
> And I fear I am realizing this too late. But my rage, no longer hides in the shadows. It can longer be hidden.
> I fed my rage to do what I felt like I had to do. I fueled my raging fire of anger and frustration, and now I have to watch it burn out. And it is not pretty. It is horrifying.
> 
> Perhaps if I had fueled different emotions, it would've ended differently, but who knows.
> 
> DD, right now, you are trying to fuel both fires. You don't want to forgive CM. You are fueling your rage by doing that.
> But you are trying to reconcile. Trying to fuel your love and passion for her at the same time.
> And it puts you through hell, as you try to keep your anger in check, but realize that you can't give her your heart again without risking that she'll break it again.
> 
> I understand the pain. I understand the regrets, the anger, the questioning, the sadness, the long sleepless nights, the shattered dreams and visions, the crushed ego, the questioning of yourself, I understand all that.
> 
> But I will tell you this:
> Eventually, one of those fires will over power the other. It will either be your passion and love for your wife, or your rage and anger at what she did.
> May take a long time to happen, but it will one day.
> 
> I choose to fuel my anger. And sometimes, looking back, I do wonder what it would have been like had I tried fueling love at a different time and place.
> And I always wonder, if I choose to feed the wrong fire. To pursue the wrong emotion.
> Because at the end of the day, one of those emotions are going to stick with you for a long time. A _very_ long time.
> I choose rage and refused to forgive.
> Which will you choose?


I was thinking about you last night. So you decided on the divorce option? Are you getting counselling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

EI said:


> Yesterday something came up at home. It was one of those things that, pre-A, would have caused the two us to break our silence and erupt into yelling, screaming, crying and cursing on my part and B1 becoming even more frustrated, angry, sullen and withdrawn. Then, we would have one of those conversations that we had already had a thousand times before (well, mostly, I had the conversation and B1 listened with an exasperated look on his face.)  But, nothing would ever change.... and more and more resentment and hostility would build inside of me and more and more distance, resignation and defeat would set in for B1. The truth is, the issue, yesterday, didn't have a single thing to do with either of us.... that had simply become our standard method of problem solving. Oftentimes, I would tell B1 that he needed to handle an issue at home or with one of the kids. Then, if he didn't handle it fast enough or handle it the way that I wanted him to, I would "take over" the project.... but, I would be bitter about it. And, everyone in the house knew it.
> 
> So, yesterday, I went downstairs...... B1 is the only one reading this that knows exactly what that means.... but, let's just say that I sent B1, and our daughter... who is married and no longer lives at home with us, a text that simply read *"I went downstairs today." *That put the fear of God into both of them. I got a text back from B1 that said, "I'll handle it when I get home from work." I texted back, "Okay."  All I know is that within minutes, our 17 y/o son walked into the front door (he had spent the night with a friend down the street) and our 20 y/o son, who works nights, and was still sleeping, were both up and moving. When B1 got home from work he continued to handle the situation until it was completely under control. That is so far removed from how that exact same situation would have played out a year ago.





daisygirl 41 said:


> Omg just dared to wander into my 18 year old sons bedroom. I managed to make it out alive!
> How can anyone make so much mess just playing his guitar and Xbox!!!
> I need a drink!
> Is it wine o clock yet!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

I feel your pain, DG! Well, B1 probably felt it more earlier this week, because the melt down that could have resulted from MY trip into the boys' lair might have been a major setback in our "R." So, I just came back upstairs and calmly sent B1 a text. 

If "HIS" sons are going to live like that then "HE" is going to have to deal with them. I don't think a trip to the basement should cause my blood pressure to spike. 

Come to think of it...... I don't think we've seen our 20 y/o since that day...... :scratchhead: In fact, I'm quite certain of it... 

B1 told me that I complain because 20 y/o is NEVER home and that I complain because 17 y/o rarely leaves. I try to explain simple concepts like "normal," "healthy," "balance," "typical......" 

BTW........B1, I'll be going back down today for inspections..... I hope it's safe!


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> This thread never was respectable,I used to be so innocent and pure as the driven snow til I came here.
> Now I'm a perv,not that its a bad thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EI called me a perv just the other day. That was something new for me. Never been called a perv before, it is this thread 
Or, perhaps it's the T-Injections  either way..I like it!


----------



## B1

EI said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I feel your pain, DG! Well, B1 probably felt it more earlier this week, because the melt down that could have resulted from MY trip into the boys' lair might have been a major setback in our "R." So, I just came back upstairs and calmly sent B1 a text.
> 
> If "HIS" sons are going to live like that then "HE" is going to have to deal with them. I don't think a trip to the basement should cause my blood pressure to spike.
> 
> Come to think of it...... I don't think we've seen our 20 y/o since that day...... :scratchhead: In fact, I'm quite certain of it...
> 
> B1 told me that I complain because 20 y/o is NEVER home and that I complain because 17 y/o rarely leaves. I try to explain simple concepts like "normal," "healthy," "balance," "typical......"
> 
> BTW........B1, I'll be going back down today for inspections..... I hope it's safe!


Going down to inspect, let's see, Hmmm...OK, I'm up for that one 

I know...I know... perv....


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> Going down to inspect, let's see, Hmmm...OK, I'm up for that one
> 
> I know...I know... perv....



_I don't know who *YOU* are, :scratchhead: but we cannot let my 1st husband find out about you!  :rofl:_

Perv.....


----------



## MrQuatto

calvin said:


> Ugh
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, that's not to say its a horrible situation after all this time, but I think it simply changes your nature to be suspicious due to the betrayal. When they arise on my part, I talk to my wife about them and we move on. The more I talk about them when they arise, the less often they arise. I just wish, in the past, my wife put in as much effort into the R as yours is.

Q~


----------



## MrQuatto

calvin said:


> This thread never was respectable,I used to be so innocent and pure as the driven snow til I came here.
> Now I'm a perv,not that its a bad thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, but we all know that snow was driven on by a asphalt truck dripping warm, wet, sticky..... 

Damned it !!!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Happy Friday all! I just want to say that the weather is finally supposed to be really nice here, and I've loved the silliness in this thread the past few days. It's so nice to just laugh sometimes. Here's hoping for continued personal sunshine for all of us.


----------



## ChangingMe

It's a beautiful day here too. The last few days have been chilly and rainy. Today the sun is out and the high is 71. Our kids are both in t-ball, and the last 2 Saturdays, their games have been rained out. Looks like they will finally get to play tomorrow, which I am really excited about. 

Last night, I had an Open House and ribbon-cutting at my new building. The local Chamber of Commerce was involved, and a bunch of former board members and other people in the community attended. It was a total success. A lot of fun, tons of people came, good publicity for the agency. 

DD had told me the night before that he was not going to attend. I understand that my job can be a trigger, so I understood him not wanting to go. 

But he came. 

He took the kids to a drop-in play place, and came up to the event, staying till the very end. I cannot begin to tell him and all of you how much that meant to me. I'm tearing up typing about it. Of all the various people I was hoping would show up last night -city officials, judges, former board members, he was #1. And he came. 

I love him so much.


----------



## CantSitStill

high of 41 today..bla too cold
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

MrQuatto said:


> Calvin, that's not to say its a horrible situation after all this time, but I think it simply changes your nature to be suspicious due to the betrayal. When they arise on my part, I talk to my wife about them and we move on. The more I talk about them when they arise, the less often they arise. I just wish, in the past, my wife put in as much effort into the R as yours is.
> 
> Q~


I'm not usually worried about her contacting the POSOM,she knows what a scumbag and loser he is and what he said about her when he didn't get what he wanted,I wish this crap had never happened.
I feel good today and am not worried about her contacting him.
I do hate that son of a b!tch with everything I have though,for all the calls to me,the things he said about my family.
I can't help but wonder what the hell CSS was thinking then.
I'm glad I ruined his life and I wish he would stop running away when I see him.

Other than that today is good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

E1- I was wondering what you were in about 'going downstairs'!! It could have meant a number of things!! Lol! 
We live in an old 3 storey cottage. Our house is about 150 years old, and my sons room is in the top floor, that's why I rarely make it up there. I tell you something, when the zombie apocalypse hits, that's where we need to hide!!!

CM - so glad to hear your evening went well and DD turned up to support you. Just wonderful!

Wine o clock is just an hour away. Hubby is away visiting his dad so I'm having a nice girly evening around my friend house. Lovely!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Glaad to hear the opening was such a success.


ChangingMe said:


> DD had told me the night before that he was not going to attend. I understand that my job can be a trigger, so I understood him not wanting to go.
> But he came.
> He took the kids to a drop-in play place, and came up to the event, staying till the very end. I cannot begin to tell him and all of you how much that meant to me. I'm tearing up typing about it. Of all the various people I was hoping would show up last night -city officials, judges, former board members, he was #1. And he came.
> I love him so much.


He already stepped it up with the network. It's not duty. What is it?


----------



## TCSRedhead

CantSitStill said:


> high of 41 today..bla too cold
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, is now a bad time to mention that it was 71 degrees here at 8:30 this morning?

:rofl:

I'm glad to see the levity in this thread. It's a good thing that shows some measure of healing.

It's heartening. C&B and I are doing well (although he's suffering a bit from food poisoning this morning - not MY cooking!).

I'm so grateful for many things but the top of my list this morning:

1. His love - even during the good, bad and ugly.
2. Our honey badger of a son - that kid makes me LOL every single flippin day. Literally.
3. Flexibility in my job that allowed me to stay home later to take care of C&B this morning.
4. Beautiful sunshine that reflects our mood today.


----------



## TCSRedhead

daisygirl 41 said:


> Omg just dared to wander into my 18 year old sons bedroom. I managed to make it out alive!
> How can anyone make so much mess just playing his guitar and Xbox!!!
> I need a drink!
> Is it wine o clock yet!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never realized how stressful it was to know (even if I didn't see) how bad our daughters' rooms were behind those closed doors. Now that they're both off at college and their stuff is packed away, it's really nice... (not to mention no teenagers to 'overhear' anything!)


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> I came because you said you ordered 48 bottles of wine.


Whatever it takes, DD! Whatever it takes!


----------



## StarGazer101

DD and CM - I'm not religious but if I was, I'd pray that you guys make it - you have such a unique and lovely spark between you on the good days.


----------



## ChangingMe

StarGazer101 said:


> DD and CM - I'm not religious but if I was, I'd pray that you guys make it - you have such a unique and lovely spark between you on the good days.


Thank you. Seriously.


----------



## Fisherman

I am religious and I sure pray for God to bless you two.


----------



## happyman64

StarGazer101 said:


> DD and CM - I'm not religious but if I was, I'd pray that you guys make it - you have such a unique and lovely spark between you on the good days.


Funny, why do you think you have to be religious to pray?

Why not just pray for them and their family.


----------



## pidge70

daisygirl 41 said:


> I'm not allowed to say LOL!
> My daughter banned me. Says I'm too old!! Really??
> 
> Hi everyone. Hope you're all ok.
> Things are good here. Had my birthday on Tuesday. Hubby was wonderful. Attentive and giving all day. We had a lovely walk on the beach and a picnic and last night we went to see a band, which was great, we haven't done that in such a long time. We had a lot of fun!
> 
> Daisygirl 41 is now 43!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy Belated Birthday! I turned 43 this past Sunday....you and I are NOT old.....lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Daisygirl 41 is now 43!!





pidge70 said:


> Happy Belated Birthday! I turned 43 this past Sunday....you and I are NOT old.....lol


Darn right you ladies are not old at 43!  'Cuz I'm 48..... And I'm sure as heck NOT old!  I, honestly, feel better than I did 10 years ago!


----------



## Robsia

happyman64 said:


> Funny, why do you think you have to be religious to pray?
> 
> Why not just pray for them and their family.


Well if you're not religious, praying is just talking to yourself, surely.


----------



## StarGazer101

happyman64 said:


> Funny, why do you think you have to be religious to pray?
> 
> Why not just pray for them and their family.


If clumsily expressed, the sentiment was genuine.


----------



## MattMatt

One evening my wife said: "Well, Matt, our neighbours will be pleased to know that you have found God and that you arrived."

I was puzzled for a split second and then I got it. "Oh. Was I vocal? Sorry!" 

She said: "Vocal? I'm surprised you have any vocal chords left!":rofl:


----------



## EI

StarGazer101 said:


> If clumsily expressed, the sentiment was genuine.


I thought you expressed it quite nicely and the sentiment was lovely! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Been up since 2:30am,tried to take a nap on CSS's lap but she kept getting up,phone kept ringing and my daughter took the other coutch.
Oh well,got a little sleep in,then I wake up to a lifetime movie.
I hate lifetime,its torture.How much can a man take??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

How long are lifetime movies? Six hours?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Been up since 2:30am,tried to take a nap on CSS's lap but she kept getting up,phone kept ringing and my daughter took the other coutch.
> Oh well,got a little sleep in,then I wake up to a lifetime movie.
> I hate lifetime,its torture.*How much can a man take??*


How much??? :scratchhead: Well,  for every hour of Pawn Stars that I must endure, B1 should have to endure an equal numbers of hours of Lifetime Movie Network and/or a chick flick...... And, no, watching Pawn Stars is *not* included in the required _'heavy lifting clause.' _


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> How much??? :scratchhead: Well,  for every hour of Pawn Stars that I must endure, B1 should have to endure an equal numbers of hours of Lifetime Movie Network and/or a chick flick...... And, no, watching Pawn Stars is *not* included in the required _'heavy lifting clause.' _


Pawn Stars is different
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CSS actually likes Pawn Stars,my turn now.Time to watch The Expendables,never saw it.
Now I have the urge to whoop some ass and bake a cake,maybe do alittle sowing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Happy birthday Daisy and Pidge  While Calvin was asleep on my lap I was staring at him and he just looked so good and I started thinking about him and how much I admire him. He has always pushed the kids and me to do better and he has such a good work ethic. I mean, why did I resent him for being a leader of the household? His intentions were good and I just didnt see it the way I do now. He has always taken care of us and I wish I had appreciated him more the way I do now. It breaks my heart thinking that I could have lost him by my own choice. I love Calvin so much. I used to say the passion is gone. Well I definately feel the passion with him now. The other day out of the blue he came up to me and hugged me for no reason. I think we are really both seeing eachothers needs  I feel so blessed to have him. He means so much to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Happy birthday Daisy and Pidge  While Calvin was asleep on my lap I was staring at him and he just looked so good and I started thinking about him and how much I admire him. He has always pushed the kids and me to do better and he has such a good work ethic. I mean, why did I resent him for being a leader of the household? His intentions were good and I just didnt see it the way I do now. He has always taken care of us and I wish I had appreciated him more the way I do now. It breaks my heart thinking that I could have lost him by my own choice. I love Calvin so much. I used to say the passion is gone. Well I definately feel the passion with him now. The other day out of the blue he came up to me and hugged me for no reason. I think we are really both seeing eachothers needs  I feel so blessed to have him. He means so much to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How can you not love a woman like that?
Sigh....she still turns me on,she's something else,makes me melt sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

EI said:


> How much??? :scratchhead: Well,  for every hour of Pawn Stars that I must endure, B1 should have to endure an equal numbers of hours of Lifetime Movie Network and/or a chick flick...... And, no, watching Pawn Stars is *not* included in the required _'heavy lifting clause.' _


My wife _*hates*_ romantic stuff. Can't abide it. Her ideal viewing would be a film on modern architecture, followed by a documentary on Charles Di<kens and then a three/four hour special on steam traction engines and their boiler rebuilding. (Seriously! That's her bag!)


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> My wife _*hates*_ romantic stuff. Can't abide it. Her ideal viewing would be a film on modern architecture, followed by a documentary on Charles Di<kens and then a three/four hour special on steam traction engines and their boiler rebuilding. (Seriously! That's her bag!)


Want to trade M&M. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrQuatto

Robsia said:


> Well if you're not religious, praying is just talking to yourself, surely.


I must be religious as hell cause I talk to myself all the time 

Q~


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Want to trade M&M.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She also cooks Indian food to her family's own traditional recipes. So, sorry, no trades, mate!


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> She also cooks Indian food to her family's own traditional recipes. So, sorry, no trades, mate!


Na,I don't like Indian food.How about if I just move in?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'll bring bisciuts and gravy M&M I'm tired off working.
I'll shovel the snow and cut the grass for my keep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

MrQuatto said:


> I must be religious as hell cause I talk to myself all the time
> 
> Q~


I talk to myself a lot as well. Mrs bfree says its because I'm the only one that knows what the heck I'm talking about.


----------



## MrQuatto

bfree said:


> I talk to myself a lot as well. Mrs bfree says its because I'm the only one that knows what the heck I'm talking about.


Lol, yep. I always have brilliant conversations with myself


----------



## ChangingMe

God, I hate what I have done. I hate that no matter how many apologies I make, it doesn't erase what I've done. I will always be guilty of it. And I hate how crap pops back up. 

Last weekend was really, really bad for us. Wednesday night was good. Yesterday he came to my event. 

Tonight he went out with a friend, came home, got in bed, and then asked me specifics of when things happened. We have gone through this before of course; I wrote a timeline for him in October right after we joined TAM. But this was more of questions like did it occur before or after this event that we went to. 

Apparently, with FB now old tags and things are popping up. I OF COURSE have xOM completely blocked on there, and I had deleted all the photos I knew of that were on my FB that he was in. But I guess old posts popped up today on DD's page of times that we all hung out, check-ins and such. It hadn't occurred to me to go back through and delete those. I never see them again once they are scooted down your page. I just now went through and deleted any post I could find, and it made me sick to my stomach. But as far as I can tell, there is nothing on my page anymore that has any connection with the worst thing I have ever done.

I hate that each time that it seems like DD can catch his breath, something else jumps out at him. I hate that my actions caused this. 

DD gets a break from me most of tomorrow. We have our daughter's game in the morning, but then I have to do presentation at city hall, and then he is going to fly and check out a plane with his dad. I really hope he is able to just enjoy the day. He deserves lots of good days.


----------



## old timer

ChangingMe said:


> God, I hate what I have done. I hate that no matter how many apologies I make, it doesn't erase what I've done. I will always be guilty of it. And I hate how crap pops back up.
> 
> Last weekend was really, really bad for us. Wednesday night was good. Yesterday he came to my event.
> 
> Tonight he went out with a friend, came home, got in bed, and then asked me specifics of when things happened. We have gone through this before of course; I wrote a timeline for him in October right after we joined TAM. But this was more of questions like did it occur before or after this event...


CM, CSS, EI, MsMathias, and other WS's:
Somewhere along the line, your spouse has to accept, love, and forgive. 
You cannot be expected to endure eternal punishment. 

DD, calvin, Matt, and other BS's: 
You can't keep beating them over the head...
"OMG - I'm triggering... Can't believe you did this to me...I quit ..."

Do you realize what some (me, for instance) would give to have a remorseful spouse who truly wants to work toward making their marriage survive?

Accept we're all human and fallible...forgive. 

Move forward or move out. 

I love you all here and if I ruffle feathers w this - so be it - but I've been biting my tongue now for several months. 
.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Personally I think that when you're triggering, your WS absolutely needs to know; you shouldn't feel you have to hide it. Not to punish them, but so they know why you've suddenly gone withdrawn and quiet. And so they can comfort and reassure you.

Simply talking about it an asking questions is not punishment, it is a necessary part of the healing process.

I don't know about all of you but I say things on here that I don't say to my WH. I don't always tell him about the negative feelings and the anger, I save the venting for here, or my diary; I don't want there to be too much negativity between us.

But I do tell him about triggering and I don't stop myself from asking questions when they occur to me.


----------



## daisygirl 41

old timer said:


> CM, CSS, EI, MsMathias, and other WS's:
> Somewhere along the line, your spouse has to accept, love, and forgive.
> You cannot be expected to endure eternal punishment.
> 
> DD, calvin, Matt, and other BS's:
> You can't keep beating them over the head...
> "OMG - I'm triggering... Can't believe you did this to me...I quit ..."
> 
> Do you realize what some (me, for instance) would give to have a remorseful spouse who truly wants to work toward making their marriage survive?
> 
> Accept we're all human and fallible...forgive.
> 
> Move forward or move out.
> 
> I love you all here and if I ruffle feathers w this - so be it - but I've been biting my tongue now for several months.
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I kind of agree with you OT. I think about the A everyday, i probably have triggers everyday but i am learning now when to keep it to myself and when to bring it up. I think that you are right, that if we have decided to Reconcile there has to come a point where we have to move on and not keep on punidhing out WSs. Saying that, it IS very difficult, there is a part of me that wants to bring it up, that wants to punish him and remind him of the hurt and the pain he caused. Sometimes i feel he got away with it too easily, that i was too quick to forgive, but that it by the by now, and i accept that i have to move forward and look at what he is doing TODAY and not what went on in the past.

Another thing to remember also is that we are all in different stages of our 'recovery', and as with anything, we all heal in different ways, in different time frames, there are some of us here who are only a few weeks into it. 

When i 'trigger' now or have painful things going around my head i dont always tell him, i will try and deal with it in my own way, but but if its really bad, and i know im not just brining things up to punish him or to be spiteful then of course i will tell him. He needs to know. We had an incident on Sunday evening. We were all at a friends house and H had dissapeared, i went to look for him and i could see him in the garden on his mobile phone. I could feel myself shutting down instantly and an absolute feeling of terror came over me. When he came back in he could tell something was wrong. It turns out he had been on the phone to his dad, he showed me the call log, we then got into a discussion about how he cant do that to me, he cant just dissapear on his phone without telling me because thats what he used to do with the OW. We had both had a few drinks and he started getting defensive, saying - you know nothing is going on, are you going to punish me for ever blah blah blah. I decided it was time to leave. Walking home we didnt speak. But by the time we got home he put his arms around me and apologised, said he was sorry and didnt think about his actions, didnt blame me for getting upset with him. I even had a bunch of flowers the next day!!

So what im trying to say i suppose, in my mamouth E1 post is that ifwe are still brining up the past to hurt or punish our WSs then we have to look at why we are doing this and think about whether R is really the best thing, but when the triggers and question are brought up for genuine healing purposes then i think it can only help in the long run.

Sorry for the long post


----------



## daisygirl 41

pidge70 said:


> Happy Belated Birthday! I turned 43 this past Sunday....you and I are NOT old.....lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy belated birthday Pidge. Hope you are doing ok
xx


----------



## calvin

I'd never move out OT,it would'nt be fair too me.Move on? Yes but at my pace,the effort I am putting into R is huge.
All I can do is do the best I can and hang in there.
Its a struggle for sure,hell its the fight of your life and feelings come back to the surface sometimes.
I don't think
it comes down to move out or move on but keep fighting and stay in the game.
Its hard but I love my wife and won't quit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

daisygirl 41 said:


> We had an incident on Sunday evening. We were all at a friends house and H had dissapeared, i went to look for him and i could see him in the garden on his mobile phone. I could feel myself shutting down instantly and an absolute feeling of terror came over me. When he came back in he could tell something was wrong. It turns out he had been on the phone to his dad, he showed me the call log, we then got into a discussion about how he cant do that to me, he cant just dissapear on his phone without telling me because thats what he used to do with the OW. We had both had a few drinks and he started getting defensive, saying - you know nothing is going on, are you going to punish me for ever blah blah blah. I decided it was time to leave. Walking home we didnt speak. But by the time we got home he put his arms around me and apologised, said he was sorry and didnt think about his actions, didnt blame me for getting upset with him. I even had a bunch of flowers the next day!!


I trigger when he gets texts. He used to disappear off into the kitchen to text the OW at home.

So when he gets a text on his phone, or I see him texting I always feel it. But I just try to remain very calm and when he comes back I simply ask him "Who was that?" Not in an angry accusing way, but a very matter of fact way. He just tells me, and shows me the text.

If he got defensive about it, I would be very upset. I would want to know why he couldn't tell me. What was he hiding?

See, in a normal relationship, asking to know who your OH is texting all the time would be a little unreasonable. But when you're rebuilding trust after an A, you are not in a normal relationship. And it only takes a single instant to break what little fragile trust we have managed to rebuild so far and send us right back to the beginning.

So, our WSs NEED to understand that they have to be far far more accountable than normal, and NOT to get defensive about it.

It's not about punishment, it's about meeting our needs. And the WS should bend over backwards to meet our new, clingy, over-reacting needs as they were the ones who created those needs in the first place.


----------



## cpacan

old timer said:


> CM, CSS, EI, MsMathias, and other WS's:
> Somewhere along the line, your spouse has to accept, love, and forgive.
> You cannot be expected to endure eternal punishment.
> 
> DD, calvin, Matt, and other BS's:
> You can't keep beating them over the head...
> "OMG - I'm triggering... Can't believe you did this to me...I quit ..."
> 
> Do you realize what some (me, for instance) would give to have a remorseful spouse who truly wants to work toward making their marriage survive?
> 
> Accept we're all human and fallible...forgive.
> 
> Move forward or move out.
> 
> I love you all here and if I ruffle feathers w this - so be it - but I've been biting my tongue now for several months.
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm... OT, something don't feel quite right when I read this. 

I agree with some of it to some degree, though. I too would like to have a remorseful and self developing spouse like the people we follow on this thread (that was thumbs up for you know yourself who you are), and I also think that there comes a time to forgive and move on for everyone.

But, I definitely don't like the tiny smell of "I screwed you all over and showed you how little respect I have for you, now, sorry 'bout that, move on, because I know I have."

When a BS trigger and bring something up, it's usually not to harm the spouse or the relationship, it's a defence mechanism and not necessarily because people live in the past. Try and punch my nose, you may hit me, but if you make a move again, don't be surprised if I raise my hands to protect myself. I learned something from my past.

We generally don't like to get hurt. Anger and withdrawal, the attempt to understand what happened, are all used to protect our selves against being hurt again. It's a natural reaction and it can be difficult to elliminate it at all times.

I try very hard to let the past go, it's not here, I don't live it now, the present is different and I live it now. But I still can't help to think about my wife's capabilities. So, I'm vigilant and I'm very focused on moving myself to a place where I can let her go without the slightest hesitation if she chooses to cheat again.

I'm sorry to say this, but I don't think the scars from infidelity will ever disappear - that goes for both BS and WS.

So CM, I do feel with you, I really do, but I also know that you know, that you chose your path all by yourself, and the only way forward is to learn from the experience and become a better person. And I also believe that you do that. DD will eventually be better, but at his own pace and learning curve.

I'm not posting much these days, but I'm with you all in my heart and mind. Take care of each other.


----------



## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Happy belated birthday Pidge. Hope you are doing ok
> xx


Yes, happy Bday Pidge. :birthday:


----------



## bfree

ChangingMe said:


> God, I hate what I have done. I hate that no matter how many apologies I make, it doesn't erase what I've done. I will always be guilty of it. And I hate how crap pops back up.
> 
> Last weekend was really, really bad for us. Wednesday night was good. Yesterday he came to my event.
> 
> Tonight he went out with a friend, came home, got in bed, and then asked me specifics of when things happened. We have gone through this before of course; I wrote a timeline for him in October right after we joined TAM. But this was more of questions like did it occur before or after this event that we went to.
> 
> Apparently, with FB now old tags and things are popping up. I OF COURSE have xOM completely blocked on there, and I had deleted all the photos I knew of that were on my FB that he was in. But I guess old posts popped up today on DD's page of times that we all hung out, check-ins and such. It hadn't occurred to me to go back through and delete those. I never see them again once they are scooted down your page. I just now went through and deleted any post I could find, and it made me sick to my stomach. But as far as I can tell, there is nothing on my page anymore that has any connection with the worst thing I have ever done.
> 
> I hate that each time that it seems like DD can catch his breath, something else jumps out at him. I hate that my actions caused this.
> 
> DD gets a break from me most of tomorrow. We have our daughter's game in the morning, but then I have to do presentation at city hall, and then he is going to fly and check out a plane with his dad. I really hope he is able to just enjoy the day. He deserves lots of good days.


I'm sorry that this happened and affected both of you that way. But you've now eliminated another potential trigger for him in the future and that's good. Make sure you help him through this episode in any way he needs you. But it also has to be balanced out by DD realizing that yes old painful memories are going to pop up once in a while but he needs to accept that you aren't that person anymore. Its a give and take from both sides. Its how you both progress and rebuild the relationship together.


----------



## calvin

No and I am not beating CSS over the head,I asked about MC a few times way before she invited the loser into our lives,she said no every time.I had no choice in this,she did.having your wife want you out of the house and replaced by a loser is not something just just goes away quickly,it takes time.
It comes back to haunt you and not because you get a kick out of it and like feeling the way you do.
Its a process and not a simple choice,its hard work.
No way its cut and dry or as simple as leaving or staying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> No and I am not beating CSS over the head,I asked about MC a few times way before she invited the loser into our lives,she said no every time.I had no choice in this,she did.having your wife want you out of the house and replaced by a loser is not something just just goes away quickly,it takes time.
> It comes back to haunt you and not because you get a kick out of it and like feeling the way you do.
> Its a process and not a simple choice,its hard work.
> No way its cut and dry or as simple as leaving or staying.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. Its a process indeed. And as long as you both work through it together you'll be a stronger couple. Remember, you are both different people now. You both realize that betrayal is possible and that it hurts like heck. What she did will always be in the back of her mind and will influence her thoughts going forward. She knows what she almost lost and she'll never let it get to that point again. And she is stronger for it.

And you calvin are a much stronger more confident man. You know what you went through and although it was hard and hurt you survived. And even in the midst of your pain you still had the love and compassion to reach out to CSS when she was on the brink of losing it. Do you think she'll ever forget that? As my British friends like to say...Not Bloody Likely! And if it ever happened again you know what you'll do and so does she. You are both different....stronger and awake. That's how you get through it. Confidence and strength.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Agreed. Its a process indeed. And as long as you both work through it together you'll be a stronger couple. Remember, you are both different people now. You both realize that betrayal is possible and that it hurts like heck. What she did will always be in the back of her mind and will influence her thoughts going forward. She knows what she almost lost and she'll never let it get to that point again. And she is stronger for it.
> 
> And you calvin are a much stronger more confident man. You know what you went through and although it was hard and hurt you survived. And even in the midst of your pain you still had the love and compassion to reach out to CSS when she was on the brink of losing it. Do you think she'll ever forget that? As my British friends like to say...Not Bloody Likely! And if it ever happened again you know what you'll do and so does she. You are both different....stronger and awake. That's how you get through it. Confidence and strength.


I'm pretty confident we'll make it and you're right,it will always be in the back of my mind,I don't see CSS ever doing this again.
I know what has to be done even if she slipped up and had a drunken kiss with someone.
We all know how long it takes for a broken leg or arm to heal,a broken heart is another story,I don't feel there is a time limit for a heart to heal.
We'll be good,it just takes awhile.
CSS has a lot of worth to me and means a lot to me,I wouldn't throw everything away the first time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> I'd never move out OT,it would'nt be fair too me.Move on? Yes but at my pace,the effort I am putting into R is huge.
> All I can do is do the best I can and hang in there.
> Its a struggle for sure,hell its the fight of your life and feelings come back to the surface sometimes.
> I don't think
> it comes down to move out or move on but keep fighting and stay in the game.
> Its hard but I love my wife and won't quit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course it's hard. But you are tougher Calvin. You are all tougher that is why you are on TAM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Ok back into the pits,I love Saturdays!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Ok back into the pits,I love Saturdays!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too!

At least you're getting paid for the drudge work you're doing. I've been up since 6am working on house projects. I'm already tired.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

StarGazer101 said:


> DD and CM - I'm not religious but if I was, I'd pray that you guys make it - you have such a unique and lovely spark between you on the good days.


Perhaps you should TRY praying, and see how it feels. It's not like you'd be cheating on anyone...


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

happyman64 said:


> funny, why do you think you have to be religious to pray?
> 
> Why not just pray for them and their family.


This!


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

pidge70 said:


> Happy Belated Birthday! I turned 43 this past Sunday....you and I are NOT old.....lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excuse me Miss, but who are you, and who invited YOU onto this thread?


----------



## bfree

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Perhaps you should TRY praying, and see how it feels. It's not like you'd be cheating on anyone...


:iagree:

I don't know where I'd be or what I'd be if I couldn't pray.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

MattMatt said:


> One evening my wife said: "Well, Matt, our neighbours will be pleased to know that you have found God and that you arrived."
> 
> I was puzzled for a split second and then I got it. "Oh. Was I vocal? Sorry!"
> 
> She said: "Vocal? I'm surprised you have any vocal chords left!":rofl:


I love you, man.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

old timer said:


> CM, CSS, EI, MsMathias, and other WS's:
> Somewhere along the line, your spouse has to accept, love, and forgive.
> You cannot be expected to endure eternal punishment.
> 
> DD, calvin, Matt, and other BS's:
> You can't keep beating them over the head...
> "OMG - I'm triggering... Can't believe you did this to me...I quit ..."
> 
> Do you realize what some (me, for instance) would give to have a remorseful spouse who truly wants to work toward making their marriage survive?
> 
> Accept we're all human and fallible...forgive.
> 
> Move forward or move out.
> 
> I love you all here and if I ruffle feathers w this - so be it - but I've been biting my tongue now for several months.
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OT, you took the words right out of my mouth. You are wise, and your advice is sage. It's too easy to let infidelity define your relationship. If that's all it's about, well, that's not enough.

:iagree:


----------



## Robsia

happyman64 said:


> funny, why do you think you have to be religious to pray?
> 
> Why not just pray for them and their family.
> 
> 
> Hope Springs Eternal said:
> 
> 
> 
> This!
Click to expand...

I questioned this before and no one answered.

If you are not religious, who, precisely, are you praying to? And what is the point?

Not meaning to offend anyone, but I don't get it.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> I questioned this before and no one answered.
> 
> If you are not religious, who, precisely, are you praying to? And what is the point?
> 
> Not meaning to offend anyone, but I don't get it.


If you are a confirmed atheist and have absolutely no doubts that there is no God then I guess you would simply be praying for self fulfillment alone. And don't underestimate the power of self reassurance. Even atheists will admit that forcebly rewiring the brain with repeated behavior works. But if you have any doubts, if you believe in God or any type of universal intelligence then prayer is never wasted. I myself believe that there is just too much beauty and majesty in the world for this to be some random accident or chaotic happenstance. In my mind there has to be a plan or some divine direction. To each his/her own though.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Robsia said:


> I questioned this before and no one answered.
> 
> If you are not religious, who, precisely, are you praying to? And what is the point?
> 
> Not meaning to offend anyone, but I don't get it.


Well, Robsia, I don't know you at all, but considering your signature mentions God, there's gotta be something, somewhere deep inside you that acknowledges a higher power. 

The only other thing I can say is that, if you do not have any sort of faith, try praying as a form of self-talk. It will cause you to meditate on issues of importance to you, and may lead to a higher place for you, in one way or another. 

RE: God - remember, you cannot see either love or the wind, but I'll bet you believe in them both.


----------



## calvin

I'm so honored,I have been voted sexiest man on the mill by the guys.
Uh oh....wait a minute
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

It's a fine line talking about the past or choosing to let it go.

Triggers are one thing, I had a bad one this week for a couple days. A shooting at work, in our parking lot. Apparently, a husband\soldier back from Afghanistan discovered his wife's affair, he showed up about an hour after i left, shot the om 8 times at point blank range with a .45. we did talk about it. It was all over the news. It was tough to hear people talk about it at work and why it happened. Now that's a trigger. 


But if I think of something I have already asked about 100 times over then maybe that one I need to set aside. We have to remember those of us that are 10 months+ out, forcing our WS to relive the incident is not a good thing. We just have to keep that in mind.

True, we need answers, but if we already got that answer 6 months and again 3 months ago, and again 1 month ago then we may need to think about asking again, because it's just going to bring pain all over again to us both. I think this is punishment, not intentional, but we are not getting anything new, there is nothing to be gained.

Now, I'll say all this then be guilty of doing it myself in the next few months. The trick is, to stop it all together, sure we will ALL do it, but the goal is to stop it eventually. EI has made it clear to me, she NEVER EVER thinks of the xOM unless I bring him up, I am the one that brings him into our marriage, and that's not what I want to be doing. 

We do need to think before asking questions, are we truly wanting to know the answer, or are we just trying to remind our WS what they did and punish them. It's not easy keeping it in, I know, God I know. Sometimes I don't and EI is there for me, but it is hard on us both when we go there. 

Also, we are ALL at different stages and healing in our own way. Those of us that have had all our questions answered 100x over then maybe, just maybe, we need to think before we ask. I am NOT here saying suck it up, if it HAS to come out then let it out. Just think about why your asking, analyze it a little first. Remember, that in the end, after you have asked will you and your spouse be in a better place? are you really wanting an answer or is the question meant to punish....In R we have to stop punishing that's all.

If you can't do that, if all you can do is punish and that's your ultimate goal and desire then, to me, that's just not going to work out very well for either spouse.

This R is a tough thing, almost a balancing act, where if one side gets off things can fall apart fast. Ask, don't ask, hold it in, don't hold it in....geez..


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

I sense a possible healing breakthrough coming on, for many here. Watch for it. Believe in it.


----------



## Robsia

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Well, Robsia, I don't know you at all, but considering your signature mentions God, there's gotta be something, somewhere deep inside you that acknowledges a higher power.


I just like the quote  Your signatures references witches, but I bet you don't worship them.



> The only other thing I can say is that, if you do not have any sort of faith, try praying as a form of self-talk. It will cause you to meditate on issues of importance to you, and may lead to a higher place for you, in one way or another.


 Oh, I talk to myself all the time. Just not in front of other people, they tend to think I'm crazy. Sometimes I do it on bridges, so kind of a higher place. Usually down at the beach when I'm walking the dog though. Never tried it on an aeroplane.



> RE: God - remember, you cannot see either love or the wind, but I'll bet you believe in them both.


That's a bit facile. Sight is only one of the senses. You can't see your own hunger, but you sure as hell can feel it. I can feel the wind and I can feel love. I can also smell when someone's done a big fart in the room, even a silent one.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Robsia said:


> I just like the quote  Your signatures references witches, but I bet you don't worship them.


But I ABSOLUTELY believe in witches! Great point you make, though. I used that signature to illustrate not my worship of witches, but how a woman could upset my apple cart. You've inspired me to change it!

You are a smart-a$$, the good kind. Any time a woman references farts, that's MAJOR points in my book (I'd guess I speak for many of the guys on this thread).

Welcome to the thread.


----------



## Robsia

^Well, I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you. Funnily enough, my H told me I was a smart-a$$ the other day. And he and my 11yo daughter sit having farting competitions regularly in our living room.

Seriously for a minute though, I was brought up a good little C of E girl, I was a pretty stalwart believer in my younger days. I rejected the whole thing when I figured out they just wanted to tell me what to do and how to live my life.

Also I decided that the OT was mostly about the visitation of Earth by aliens.

Anyway, now, I have zero belief in any higher power. I believe that we only have one life, and that it's up to us to be the best person we can possibly be.

The quote is from my favourite ever musical, Les Mis. Jean Valjean is proof that a person can rise above the most miserable of experiences to become an incredibly good person. He credited God with his transformation, as that was in vogue at the time.

But surely it's better to think that a person can do it all by themselves with their own strength of mind and character, without the promise of eternal reward, or any divine help? Just for the sake of being the better person?


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

Robsia said:


> ^Well, I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you. Funnily enough, my H told me I was a smart-a$$ the other day. And he and my 11yo daughter sit having farting competitions regularly in our living room.
> 
> Seriously for a minute though, I was brought up a good little C of E girl, I was a pretty stalwart believer in my younger days. I rejected the whole thing when I figured out they just wanted to tell me what to do and how to live my life.
> 
> Also I decided that the OT was mostly about the visitation of Earth by aliens.
> 
> Anyway, now, I have zero belief in any higher power. I believe that we only have one life, and that it's up to us to be the best person we can possibly be.
> 
> The quote is from my favourite ever musical, Les Mis. Jean Valjean is proof that a person can rise above the most miserable of experiences to become an incredibly good person. He credited God with his transformation, as that was in vogue at the time.
> 
> But surely it's better to think that a person can do it all by themselves with their own strength of mind and character, without the promise of eternal reward, or any divine help? Just for the sake of being the better person?


Rob, you just keep being a better person, any way you know how, and I will support you.

MY serious note: "surely it's better" sounds like something one of us Christian zealots might say...


----------



## EI

Seriously, what is there not to love about this thread? It's a vast smorgasbord of the most varied and interesting people and conversations, anywhere on TAM. Kind of like my Pandora Radio playlist. Right after listening to one of my all-time favorites, "Brown Eyed Girl," by Van Morrison, I was pleasantly surprised to hear Michael Buble singing "Have a Holly Jolly Christmas," and now, I'm listening to Elton John sing "Tiny Dancer." This is truly blissful!

In an hour or so, I will be going with our youngest son, and his beautiful girlfriend, to reserve his tux for his senior prom. Later this afternoon, B1 and I, along with our daughter and S-I-L, are driving out to historic Bardstown for dinner, followed by a horse and carriage ride..... A Christmas gift from B1's mother and step-father. This is the first Saturday since Christmas that will be warm enough to enjoy it. Life feels pretty beautiful today in the B1 and EI household!

I love you, Reconcilers! Every. Single. One. Of. You!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

It’s exactly one calendar month since D-day. Mostly this last week has been a pretty good week. My parents have had my girls since Sunday as it’s school holidays to give us some space. We’ve both been working every day but we’ve spent every evening and night together, alternating my house and his, watching some good movies and spending some quality time together.

Yesterday was a good test of how well we’re doing. For Christmas I bought WH a tour of Anfield Stadium, and he’d booked it for yesterday, so we spent the entire day together.

Mostly it went okay, but there were a couple of little hiccups.

The first came when we arrived at the stadium. There is a big statue of a chap outside the main gate. Apparently it is Bill Shankly, who is the most famous Liverpool manager, like, ever! I did not know this, so I said to WH, “Who’s that chap then?”

Honestly, you would have thought I’d walked into a Catholic church and shouted, “God doesn’t exist and all priests are paedophiles!” Really loudly. In the middle of a service.

He ushered me away and, I actually can’t remember what he said, but he was embarrassed by me and told me I was being offensive to all the fans out there, and I was spoiling his day. Over-reaction much! So I got upset and a bit teary, because this behaviour from him was the kind of behaviour he would display in the marriage that we were trying to eliminate. I told him how was I supposed to know what he would consider to be offensive or not, all he had to do was tell me who the guy was.

He calmed down, and we got over it, and had a hug, but it wasn't nice for a while.

Then there was a little moment when he got a bit cross with ME for not giving him the printout he needed to get the tickets, when in fact he’d taken the printouts off me about half an hour before and he had them in his pocket. When I gently reminded him of this fact, he was annoyed at ME for not telling him. Except, I did tell him. He got over that one too though, and we actually had a good day after all that.

It all went fine until on the way home. We were on the last leg of the train journey, and I was playing Solitaire on my phone. He did a search on his phone for ‘games’ and I was glancing over his shoulder. When you search your whole iPhone, all sorts of things come up as results, emails, texts, apps etc. I saw a message from me, and then, further down, a couple of greyed out messages from two girls called Dawn and Kay.

I asked him who Dawn and Kay were. He quickly cancelled the search and said he didn’t know. This raised my suspicions and I asked him again. I asked him to do the search again and show me, then we could see who they were. He pretended to search for Games again but he did something else, and it didn’t bring up the same page as before.

I told him that he had searched his phone before, and that if he did it again, it would bring up the same results and we could see. I reached out to take the phone to do it, and he snatched it off me. I got a bit upset. He said that they could be anyone, that they could be emails or freecycle contacts. I could tell he was bullsh!tting me, and I basically just froze. I stared out of the window. I told him I knew he was lying. He said he didn’t want to do ‘this’ on a public train. I pointed out that we wouldn’t get another chance now as he was off with his family to Coventry this weekend and then his boys were visiting till Wednesday, and I couldn’t wait till Wednesday to do ‘this’.

I was actually really calm. I just asked him who they were, nice and quietly.

Finally he admitted that they were two of the girls he had spoken to before he met OW. One of them he had actually met and the other he had just exchanged a couple of texts with. I can’t remember which he said was which.

But as soon as he said that, I felt so much better. He said he hadn’t wanted to hurt me. I pointed out that the truth, even if it hurts a little bit to know the details, is far better than KNOWING someone is lying to you. Because when you know someone is lying to you, your mind invents all sorts of details, because you don’t know what it going on. I asked him if he would delete the contacts. He said he thought he already had, he didn’t know why they were there. I remembered that the messages were indeed greyed out, unlike the one from me, which was green. So I believed him. But why they would come up in a phone search I don’t know. We decided that sometimes you delete stuff off the phone but then when you sync it with iTunes, it puts it back. When we were walking back to mine from the station we talked again about the importance of being totally 100% honest. I told him even if he thinks disclosure of a detail will hurt me, I accept the hurt. I’d rather be a hurt a tiny bit by finding out a detail, than be hurt a whole lot more by being lied to. I told him that when he tries to fudge or BS me, it just shatters what fragile trust we’ve managed to get back, and we’re right back to square one.

I think he understands. 

Later he texted me saying that he had tried again to delete those contacts, and they weren’t there. I asked him if he’d been able to replicate the search, which he had, but when he clicks on the names, it doesn’t go anywhere.

Today I tried searching my iPhone for particular words, and the green message icon only comes up next to the topmost message. All the rest were grey. I tried clicking on them and they all went to the relevant messages, but then I have never deleted contacts, so I don’t know what happens if you delete the contacts. It seemed odd that they would still come up. I didn’t know what to think. I don’t know what to do if he was still lying to me.

Then I tried deleting a text which said “You have three new Answer Phone messages”. Then I deliberately searched for the words Answer Phone, and the number I deleted the texts from was first on the list of search results. But when I went to it, the screen was blank. So he could be telling the truth after all. 

But then, I tried turning the phone completely off, and back on again, and those results, the deleted ones, DIDN’T COME UP. So, the only way in which he could be telling the truth, that he deleted the contacts and the texts, would be if he had never turned his phone completely off from then till now. Which is possible, I grant you, but he says they were from before OW, so last September. Is it likely he would have never totally turned his phone on and off since last September? I don’t know.

He could be telling the truth, as I was able to replicate what he says happened, but only under that condition. Or maybe he was lying, and he has been in contact with them more recently. The only way I’d know if by looking at his phone and you can be sure by now he will have deleted them, if he hadn’t already.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> That's a bit facile. Sight is only one of the senses. You can't see your own hunger, but you sure as hell can feel it. I can feel the wind and I can feel love. I can also smell when someone's done a big fart in the room, even a silent one.


Robsia,

At the risk of seeming as if I'm debating the existence of God let me ask you this question.

Have you ever had your back turned when someone either came in the room or was watching you. Consciously you could not have possibly known they were there but all of a sudden you had a sense that someone was indeed there. You turned around and there they were? How do you explain that? ESP? Auras? Intuition?

For me that's what its like with God. I may not be able to detect Him with my five senses but I KNOW He's there anyway.


----------



## Robsia

^Well, that's called faith. You can't detect him, but you 'know' he is there. That's kind of what faith is, KWIM?


----------



## B1

DevastatedDad said:


> So I know what she did and I know somewhat of a timeline.
> Some of it used to make my punch walls and break things.
> 
> Some of the things that used to make me do that are now diffused and I am over it.
> 
> I haven't exploded in many many months.
> 
> Last week I am in the garage I sh!t you not, just cleaning it and I go to move a painter's tarp and her effing timeline falls out. I thought I had thrown that thing away twice. So I read it again and honestly it really didn't even bother me to read it. I even said to myself "how bout that this feels kind of powerless to me right now" I got a lighter and burned it on the garage floor
> 
> If it comes back, God is real and he/she hates me.
> 
> While knowing the timeline is not new yesterday (and God damn face book ) I log in and for whatever reason and I see this list of things I am tagged in.
> 
> I feel almost certain the timeline she wrote out said they have their first encounter on April 17th... Hey guess what was the first date in the list from facebook Hey.. it was Apr 17th and guess what the post was CM saying "So glad do be having dinner with great friends, DD, OM, OMW"
> 
> So I remember that exact dinner and we went out to a really fancy schmancy dinner with them 2 nights later
> 
> So yeah nothing new but the thought that they screwed for the first time and then we all went to dinner together is sociopathic. If i did that and they said let's meet for dinner, I would fake an illness and avoid that situation like the plague because I am not a socopath. That made me so uncomfortable. 3 days later I see a post from CM that is our wedding picture and some note about being married to the best husband blah blah blah
> 
> So yes, nothing new but never occurred to me that she was capable of "making the worst mistake of her life" and a few hours later going to dinner w/ me and her boyfriend and then I guess feeling some guilt and posting that "best husband photo"
> 
> It would be the same if I found out today that we had sex on the same day as she and OM. the fact that they did it is not new to me but if I were to discover that little bit of info, I would FREAK.
> 
> Point being, I am not hanging on to old triggers, Some of them no longer bother me, I am not reacting to them they way I did in the past and I could give a sh!t who thinks I should be forgiving, letting go, moving on by the way.
> 
> Would I love to get past all of this HELL YES! I hate it.
> Do you not think if I could flip a switch and turn it off I wouldn't??
> 
> I burned the effing timeline. I didn't stuff it away so I could go read it again because I love the pain, anger, punishment, power (or whatever the therapy world thinks I am doing)
> 
> Most people seem to be fighting to rebuild their marriage. I am fighting to stay married. To stay in the same house. I have one foot out the door guys. I am doing everything I can to not just walk away.
> 
> I see people posing "if I had a remorseful wife like you do"
> It would be the same but different.
> 
> Her being remorseful does not take away the fight or flight reflex I have when I think about telling CM "hey I am meeting OM at a bar for drinks" and her saying "tell him I said hi." Meanwhile she said she loved him that same day.
> 
> Not trying to be an ass but everyone can Monday morning quarterback everyone else's situation.
> 
> What would you suggest I do when something "new" pops up and I have questions? Hold it in and speculate until I go crazy? That seems unhealthy. So I just asked her and her answers were very "I don't know but maybe"-ish That made me mad and I said if it happened the way I am thinking she was twisted and sociopathic and went in slept in the guest bed.
> 
> The other thing I want to point out is I don't think I am asking the same thing over and over. There are some things I probably ask about because when I asked about them 8 months ago, I was seeing red and I don't remember what all was said in the screaming and yelling hateful sh!t.
> 
> I recently asked her a specific question about the something again because I recall her answer the first go round and she answered it early on when she was still trickle truthing. I wanted to know if the real answer was the same as what she stated back when I asked because if she is still lying after all of this then she cannot be trusted.
> 
> I am not trying to punish anyone. I am trying to stay.
> Somebody please understand that.


Got it DD, I understand, you have made some very valid and understandable points. Like you said though, your asking because you want to know, because you need an answer, because you can't hold it in..... it's not to punish. I do understand that and I understand you NEED to do that now for your sanity and to stay. 

I understand asking again because you were seeing red then, boy I know that one. I have asked questions over sometimes because I forgot the answer or I was just not listening and spewing venom, getting answers here and there but just not taking it in. Then later I play back what happened and realized I got some answers but I don't remember them. So, I ask again. That's not punishing, that's just asking again for valid reasons.

Sorry if I offended you DD, sorry your hurting.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> But surely it's better to think that a person can do it all by themselves with their own strength of mind and character, without the promise of eternal reward, or any divine help? Just for the sake of being the better person?


Actually I've always believed in God but your statement above was always my belief as well when I was younger. I guess you could say that for much of my life I was a Deist. Putting is simply Deism holds that God is like a clockmaker. He created the universe, wound it up, and now stands back and watches it run without interfering. I've changed my beliefs somewhat due to repeated events that I felt Deism couldn't explain. So I guess now you could say I'm more of a traditional Christian although I still have retained my healthy skepticism.


----------



## EI

DD, I feel bad because my sappy, happy, comments posted about a minute after your serious, painful and heartfelt post. I wouldn't have intentionally posted mine following yours if I'd seen yours first. I believe we can all feel a bit of your anguish thinking about you finding that timeline, followed later by those damn Facebook tags. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you just "get over anything." Some days you just have to survive. It was very hard for Rich this week when that shooting occurred in the parking lot at his work about an hour after he left. The employees knew the very next day that it was a BH/OM shooting, but they were asked not to discuss it with anyone because the BH/shooter hadn't yet been arrested (he has now.) The news was calling it a domestic dispute so that the employees would know that it wasn't terrorism or a sniper....... since it was on a military base. For all of the BH's, it might give you some measure of..... justice..... to know that the BH shot the OM 8 times at point blank range with a 45. B1 said he bets he knows exactly where he shot him, too. Infidelity is just so, so, so awful. I wish I could turn back time for all of us.

Of course, now my freakin' Pandora is playing John Lennon singing "Imagine." Hang in there, DD. I wish I had the magic answer..... The one that doesn't include turning back time because we can't. Now, I need for Eric Clapton to stop singing........... he tends to make me cry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

DevastatedDad said:


> So I know what she did and I know somewhat of a timeline.
> Some of it used to make my punch walls and break things.
> 
> Some of the things that used to make me do that are now diffused and I am over it.
> 
> I haven't exploded in many many months.
> 
> Last week I am in the garage I sh!t you not, just cleaning it and I go to move a painter's tarp and her effing timeline falls out. I thought I had thrown that thing away twice. So I read it again and honestly it really didn't even bother me to read it. I even said to myself "how bout that this feels kind of powerless to me right now" I got a lighter and burned it on the garage floor
> 
> If it comes back, God is real and he/she hates me.
> 
> While knowing the timeline is not new yesterday (and God damn face book ) I log in and for whatever reason and I see this list of things I am tagged in.
> 
> I feel almost certain the timeline she wrote out said they have their first encounter on April 17th... Hey guess what was the first date in the list from facebook Hey.. it was Apr 17th and guess what the post was CM saying "So glad do be having dinner with great friends, DD, OM, OMW"
> 
> So I remember that exact dinner and we went out to a really fancy schmancy dinner with them 2 nights later
> 
> So yeah nothing new but the thought that they screwed for the first time and then we all went to dinner together is sociopathic. If i did that and they said let's meet for dinner, I would fake an illness and avoid that situation like the plague because I am not a socopath. That made me so uncomfortable. 3 days later I see a post from CM that is our wedding picture and some note about being married to the best husband blah blah blah
> 
> So yes, nothing new but never occurred to me that she was capable of "making the worst mistake of her life" and a few hours later going to dinner w/ me and her boyfriend and then I guess feeling some guilt and posting that "best husband photo"
> 
> It would be the same if I found out today that we had sex on the same day as she and OM. the fact that they did it is not new to me but if I were to discover that little bit of info, I would FREAK.
> 
> Point being, I am not hanging on to old triggers, Some of them no longer bother me, I am not reacting to them they way I did in the past and I could give a sh!t who thinks I should be forgiving, letting go, moving on by the way.
> 
> Would I love to get past all of this HELL YES! I hate it.
> Do you not think if I could flip a switch and turn it off I wouldn't??
> 
> I burned the effing timeline. I didn't stuff it away so I could go read it again because I love the pain, anger, punishment, power (or whatever the therapy world thinks I am doing)
> 
> Most people seem to be fighting to rebuild their marriage. I am fighting to stay married. To stay in the same house. I have one foot out the door guys. I am doing everything I can to not just walk away.
> 
> I see people posing "if I had a remorseful wife like you do"
> It would be the same but different.
> 
> Her being remorseful does not take away the fight or flight reflex I have when I think about telling CM "hey I am meeting OM at a bar for drinks" and her saying "tell him I said hi." Meanwhile she said she loved him that same day.
> 
> Not trying to be an ass but everyone can Monday morning quarterback everyone else's situation.
> 
> What would you suggest I do when something "new" pops up and I have questions? Hold it in and speculate until I go crazy? That seems unhealthy. So I just asked her and her answers were very "I don't know but maybe"-ish That made me mad and I said if it happened the way I am thinking she was twisted and sociopathic and went in slept in the guest bed.
> 
> The other thing I want to point out is I don't think I am asking the same thing over and over. There are some things I probably ask about because when I asked about them 8 months ago, I was seeing red and I don't remember what all was said in the screaming and yelling hateful sh!t.
> 
> I recently asked her a specific question about the something again because I recall her answer the first go round and she answered it early on when she was still trickle truthing. I wanted to know if the real answer was the same as what she stated back when I asked because if she is still lying after all of this then she cannot be trusted.
> 
> I am not trying to punish anyone. I am trying to stay.
> Somebody please understand that.


DD, I love you, man, I really do. SO you know what's coming next.

When you say "or whatever the therapy world thinks I am doing", that makes it pretty obvious that you don't feel "the therapy world" has anything to offer you. 

Let me just say this, and then I will shut up, if you'll allow me: 

My mother is dying (please DO NOT tell me you are sorry about this - it's her own damned fault) because she has refused medical treatment for over 30 years. She will not take anything stronger than an aspirin, for anything, and believe me, she has plenty of physical ailments. I may not see her alive again, because she is so far away, is deaf and cannot talk on the phone, and can't seem to find my letters when I mail them to her. And frankly, I'm just too broke to make trips from Minnesota to California, where she resides. She is a shut-in. She is a hoarder. She has never sought treatment for ANY of what "might be" wrong with her, physically or mentally. She is in denial of "behavioral health issues," and feels she will, somehow, work out healing on her own.

She will die alone and in pain, and I can't do a fvcking thing about it. 

Read between the lines, dude.

I'm sorry this is so strong. I'm in a major manic episode right now, but it doesn't mess with my logic. Just my filtration system.


----------



## old timer

DD: You're right - its easy to make comments about others' situations, really not knowing them, their spouse, or anything about them. 

I'd been in the cups last night when I posted. 

My apologies to you DD, (and everyone else for that matter). I have no right to stick my nose in your business. 

Just know that I am pulling for each and every one of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> I am not offended, just had a bad night and when I vomit a post like I just did, it makes me feel like I used to when I would punch a wall. Lest releasing the pressure a bit. I am actually feeling pretty good right now.
> 
> I just had to punch that hole in the TAM wall there.
> 
> Alright everyone.. Sorry.


That's what we're here for......... I started to say "That's what friends are for," but after you accused me of that murderous rage the other night.... Well, I don't know about the friend part..... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

DD - I know how you feel. During the six weeks that my WH was having his A, I had three significant events. My 4 year old daughter went into hospital for a couple of nights - severe dehydration due to an intestinal bug, then I had my 40th birthday party, then we had our four-year anniversary of our first date.

I have gone over those events, thinking things like "So when he was ferrying me to and from the hospital, planning my party, and making like he cared, he was planning dates with her, booking hotels so he could f^ck her, texting her the second my back was turned."

Was he texting her when he was leaving me in the hospital? Was he texting her during my birthday party? Was he texting her when he/I went to the toilet on our anniversary dinner.

It kills me. It's horrible. I hate that he is capable of such deceit and complicity and such utter disregard for my feelings.

But I am having to accept that I cannot change the past. I cannot change what he did.

I'm just about getting past the stage of wishing it hadn't happened.

Right now I'm in the middle of the "How could you?" stage and still trying to piece it all together. I'm still not sure I can do it. Sometimes I hate him so much. But then he is the only one that can make me feel better. In his arms I feel safe. But how can he make me feel safe, when he did this to me in the first place?

I don't have any advice for you, just wanted to know that I understand your pain.


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## B1

DevastatedDad said:


> I am not offended, just had a bad night and when I vomit a post like I just did, it makes me feel like I used to when I would punch a wall. Lest releasing the pressure a bit. I am actually feeling pretty good right now.
> 
> I just had to punch that hole in the TAM wall there.
> 
> Alright everyone.. Sorry.


No problem dd, fixing the hole now


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## EI

Robsia, I don't know if this would help you or not, but I've had my iPhone since August and I've never turned it off. I haven't had the need to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Everyone deals with it their own way,moves on in their own way and on their own time.
No one size fits all remedy.
Enough of the pits today,got stuff too do at home.Shower and I'm out of here.
Had a good day yesterday and I don't see why today can't be good also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Rosbia- if you both have Iphones you can sync them on iCloud and any new contacts he adds will automatically show up on your contact list.
I have to say it worried me when you said he snatched the phone back off you. Why would he do that if he wasn't trying to hide anything? I don't know, maybe he just panicked.
Just be careful honey.


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## B1

Had a great day yesterday too and today should be great as well.


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## Robsia

daisygirl 41 said:


> Rosbia- if you both have Iphones you can sync them on iCloud and any new contacts he adds will automatically show up on your contact list.


How do we do that?



> I have to say it worried me when you said he snatched the phone back off you. Why would he do that if he wasn't trying to hide anything? I don't know, maybe he just panicked.
> Just be careful honey.


Me too 

We are currently trying to figure out the whole 'deleted texts coming up in search' thing. except he is 100 miles away so we;re doing it via text. He says he has tried turning the phone off and on and they still appear in search results, except the actual texts are not there. The only ones I deleted were from non-contacts, not actual contacts, so I don't know if that makes a difference.

We did talk about the whole phone thing. I warned him I may need to look through his phone unannounced now and again, and he would have to be okay with that. He said he would be. The test will come when I actually ask him. I haven't tried it yet - I was too scared to face what I would have to do if he said no


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## Robsia

Oh, apparently the issue with deleted texts appearing in search results is a known issue, if they are from former contacts. The ones I deleted were never contacts, just texts telling me I had new answer phone messages, so that's why mine were deleted after I rebooted, and his weren't.

Bloody technology! Nearly giving me a heart attack!


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## daisygirl 41

Rosbia - you have to have the same iTunes account to share your items on iCloud. My Hs and daughters ipad and phone are all on the same account as mine so I instantly see any new contacts added or any new apps they download. You can also see what Internet searches they have done.
I'm not an expert but I just tried the search and none of my deleted contacts or messages showed up, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

We don't have the same itunes account so that wont work. Is there any way to access that info remotely?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> B1 has already got things cleared up with DD about his earlier post. This reprint below is not to point the finger at DD it is just very important in my way of thinking and is worth repeating.
> 
> *As someone who has been there, done that, B1 is passing along great information that can help with R. Frankly I think it ought to be a sticky!*





> By B1
> But if I think of something I have already asked about 100 times over then maybe that one I need to set aside. We have to remember those of us that are 10 months+ out, forcing our WS to relive the incident is not a good thing. We just have to keep that in mind
> 
> True, we need answers, but if we already got that answer 6 months and again 3 months ago, and again 1 month ago then we may need to think about asking again, because it's just going to bring pain all over again to us both. I think this is punishment, not intentional, but we are not getting anything new, there is nothing to be gained.
> 
> Also, we are ALL at different stages and healing in our own way. Those of us that have had all our questions answered 100x over then maybe, just maybe, we need to think before we ask. I am NOT here saying suck it up, if it HAS to come out then let it out. Just think about why your asking, analyze it a little first. Remember, that in the end, after you have asked will you and your spouse be in a better place? are you really wanting an answer or is the question meant to punish....In R we have to stop punishing that's all.
> 
> If you can't do that, if all you can do is punish and that's your ultimate goal and desire then, to me, that's just not going to work out very well for either spouse.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Robsia said:


> We don't have the same itunes account so that wont work. Is there any way to access that info remotely?


No I don't think you can sorry.
There's a techie thread on here somewhere, you might want to ask on there.
You could ways ask him to sync your iTunes accounts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Calvin - I was controlling too! I was also moody, miserable, boring and manipulative!!
Move along please.........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Yeah,I know Daisy.
I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

B1 and I are on a horse and carriage ride, riding through the 2nd oldest town in Kentucky. So blissful. We need to do so much more of this! We just never made the time for ourselves though the years and when we did, there were always a million other things on our minds....... Now, I must get back to enjoying this beautiful moment....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

As for calvin being controlling..that was my excuse pre EA but he did not make me come back to him. He asked me to and I was so surprised he loved me enough to take me back. I for some stupid reason didn't think he really loved me but he proved me wrong. I am grateful that he kicked me out when I told him of my EA because it woke me up. I no longer see him as a controlling man but as the husband that has held everything together...shame on me for not looking up to him as a leader. I do now and I respect him very very much. btw I love him like crazy too. It kills me that I put him thru this hell and as I read DDs posts I can really feel that pain that I put calvin through. His feelings are real and there is no reason to hide them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

CSS you don't have to explain yourself honey. Hubby also called me controlling ( and a lot of other things) but he was just justifying his actions in his own head. I get it. I know he didn't mean it, and he too has apologised for the things he said. Hey we can even joke about it at times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

EI said:


> B1 and I are on a horse and carriage ride, riding through the 2nd oldest town in Kentucky. So blissful. We need to do so much more of this! We just never made the time for ourselves though the years and when we did, there were always a million other things on our minds....... Now, I must get back to enjoying this beautiful moment....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

oops EI was trying to reply to you..just wanna say that is sooo awesome!! enjoy yourselves lol can't believe you took out the time to come her lol...a bit addicted to us? lol I'm happy for you two. Daisy calvin and I both had our faults and the best thing I did was forgive him totally for some things that bothered me about him. I mean he's not perfect and there is no excuse for infidelity..a WS goes thru a phase of blaming the marriage being bad on their spouse and don't wanna take a good look at themselves. Now I see how I didn't treat calvin the way I should have..dammit i wish I woulda got these books and this site and the counseling a long time ago..cant turn back time but we can move forward no matter what it takes we can be happily married with passion and love for eachother and that is the ultimate goal. Just like Beowulf and Morrigan who have been thru alot of hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

EI said:


> B1 and I are on a horse and carriage ride, riding through the 2nd oldest town in Kentucky. So blissful. We need to do so much more of this! We just never made the time for ourselves though the years and when we did, there were always a million other things on our minds....... Now, I must get back to enjoying this beautiful moment....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent you gtwo,enjoy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> oops EI was trying to reply to you..just wanna say that is sooo awesome!! enjoy yourselves lol can't believe you took out the time to come her lol...a bit addicted to us? lol I'm happy for you two. Daisy calvin and I both had our faults and the best thing I did was forgive him totally for some things that bothered me about him. I mean he's not perfect and there is no excuse for infidelity..a WS goes thru a phase of blaming the marriage being bad on their spouse and don't wanna take a good look at themselves. Now I see how I didn't treat calvin the way I should have..dammit i wish I woulda got these books and this site and the counseling a long time ago..cant turn back time but we can move forward no matter what it takes we can be happily married with passion and love for eachother and that is the ultimate goal. Just like Beowulf and Morrigan who have been thru alot of hell.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love you and we are goiong to be alright,it gets better every day.
We got this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

DD - I'm just 2 months post D-Day. The first couple weeks, my WS was physically ill much of the time (have to say, I was hoping the guilt had something to do with it). Since then, we've had some talks and a major blow up, but we've also had to take some breaks in between. He's had some bad headaches and sometimes I've just been exhausted (not sleeping well many nights), so we've missed a lot of days when we could have dealt with this stuff....

Which is a long drawn out way of saying that there are still some things I haven't gone over with him yet. Timeline stuff, in particular. I have some text messages from him that were mere hours after he left her house or a hotel where he went for an hour or two of sex with her. One text was shortly before he arrived at her house. And I have YET to go over this with him. One specifically lied about where he was. One was cheerful, in one he even called me "love." Blech. 

I've told him I have some specific things to discuss, and we need to find time, but I don't want to do it right before bedtime, and I don't want to wreck mealtimes, but we haven't arranged a block of time that works for both of us yet. 

But I look at these texts and it boggles the mind. How he could compartmentalize these two parts of his life and lie to me like that - I wonder what kind of frame of mind he was in. He has said that he "wasn't thinking straight" but that was in response to general questions - I want to know about how he could text me these things at those specific times.

My WS does have some anxiety problems, and has been in IC due to a panic attack which occurred just before the A, so he definitely has "issues" - but to be able to switch on and off like that from her to me is astounding, and I want to hear what he recalls about sending me these texts.

So I get where you're coming from about this stuff hitting you hard. We married these people and thought we knew them, but they were capable of leading double lives and deceiving us in ways that just make us shake our heads in disbelief, and the wound is deeper than we could have imagined.

It's going well for us right now - we've had some nice times together, but he's got another headache so things are on hold.


----------



## CantSitStill

why do we WS" come here daily? i guess to constantly be reminded of the horrible thing we did. We are so sorry that we come to TAM to punish ourselves so we never forget the pain we put our spouse thru. Crazy isnt it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

I'd sure hope that's not why.

I'd hope it's to try and understand how you can help your BS heal in any way possible.

I'd hope it's to help yourself with self loathing. To understand how to forgive yourself.


----------



## EI

I didn't come here to punish myself. In my very first thread which was just 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day, I came here looking for answers about how to help B1 heal. I was very anxious about him wanting to know so many details. This was a while before either of us knew whether or not we even wanted to attempt to reconcile. But, I did know that he was suffering and I needed to find a way to help him get through it. Little did I know, then, that eventually I would find as much help here for me as I would for him. 

CSS, your goal should be to be the best possible individual for yourself and the best possible wife for Calvin as you can be..... Every. Single. Day. How much joy and happiness can a beaten down, defeated, self-loathing wife bring to her husband? Think about it. If you set out to punish yourself every day, then how can that "punishment" that you're purposely wallowing in not rub off on Calvin? I'll admit that I have had an easier time forgiving B1 for the ways that he had hurt me over the years than I have in forgiving myself for being unfaithful to him. But, I owe it to him, our children and myself to work as hard as I can to be the best wife, mother and individual that I can be. What is there to be gained by dedicating your life to punishing yourself? Dedicate your life to bettering yourself and learning from the poor choices that you've made in the past. What is to be gained from dedicating yourself to a life of mysery. When B1 and I first began talking about trying to reconcile, I asked him if he ultimately wanted to love me or to punish me....... Because if it was the later, I felt that he and I had both been punished enough by the challenges of our life. I'd had enough of that. He said that he wanted to love me. And, with that, I decided to make a decision every day to be someone worthy of that love. Be the best version of yourself, CSS.

I don't get punishment from TAM, I get strength, encouragement, wisdom, and yes, even compassion..... That one was a little harder to come by, but I was determined to find it, and I did right here on this thread. If all I found was punishment, I would log off and never look back. To me, this has been my "support group." I do read stories here that break my heart..... not for punishment, but that I can be reminded what the pain of betrayal can do to your spouse. That helps me stay focused and to remember that reconciliation is an ongoing process. I want to be reminded so that I can be better for B1....... not bitter towards myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

hopefulgirl said:


> DD - I'm just 2 months post D-Day. The first couple weeks, my WS was physically ill much of the time (have to say, I was hoping the guilt had something to do with it). Since then, we've had some talks and a major blow up, but we've also had to take some breaks in between. He's had some bad headaches and sometimes I've just been exhausted (not sleeping well many nights), so we've missed a lot of days when we could have dealt with this stuff....
> 
> Which is a long drawn out way of saying that there are still some things I haven't gone over with him yet. Timeline stuff, in particular. I have some text messages from him that were mere hours after he left her house or a hotel where he went for an hour or two of sex with her. One text was shortly before he arrived at her house. And I have YET to go over this with him. One specifically lied about where he was. One was cheerful, in one he even called me "love." Blech.
> 
> I've told him I have some specific things to discuss, and we need to find time, but I don't want to do it right before bedtime, and I don't want to wreck mealtimes, but we haven't arranged a block of time that works for both of us yet.
> 
> But I look at these texts and it boggles the mind. How he could compartmentalize these two parts of his life and lie to me like that - I wonder what kind of frame of mind he was in. He has said that he "wasn't thinking straight" but that was in response to general questions - I want to know about how he could text me these things at those specific times.
> 
> My WS does have some anxiety problems, and has been in IC due to a panic attack which occurred just before the A, so he definitely has "issues" - but to be able to switch on and off like that from her to me is astounding, and I want to hear what he recalls about sending me these texts.
> 
> So I get where you're coming from about this stuff hitting you hard. We married these people and thought we knew them, but they were capable of leading double lives and deceiving us in ways that just make us shake our heads in disbelief, and the wound is deeper than we could have imagined.
> 
> It's going well for us right now - we've had some nice times together, but he's got another headache so things are on hold.


Arrange a time???? I couldn't hold back at 2 months out, I would open the can of worms as soon as I walked in the door from work. Also, I would have been emailing her during work. 
I would ruin breakfast, lunch, and dinner..anything to get answers.


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> I am not trying to punish anyone. I am trying to stay.
> Somebody please understand that.


I see this, DD. I do. I see the struggle you are going through on a daily basis. I hate it. I hurt for you, I am so angry at myself for causing you to hurt, to have to have this internal struggle just so you can be around me. 

Please know that I have never gotten frustrated at you for talking about what I did. The other day at my mom's was the first time since all this that I think I showed any real frustration -and that was directed at stuff totally separate from the cheating. I get frustrated at stuff popping back up -like you finding the timeline again and the FB crap -but that is not frustration at you. And I am always angry at myself for making the choices I did that put us in this place. That never goes away. If I appear frustrated, odds are it is with myself. 

I do not feel you are asking questions over and over. I did say you've repeated questions, because you have. I'm not complaining there. I understand why you do it. 

I apologize for the other night, especially if you felt I was holding back. I wasn't expecting to be asked very specific questions at 1:00 am. I had been dozing on the couch when you got home, and then I came to bed with you and you asked me about specific dates and dinners that took place almost a year ago. My brain was foggy, I was tired, and if I paused to think it was only because I actually had to think about it. 

This is what I remember: The first time was not until after our big group date night. I do know that. That means it happened after the dinner you asked about, since you said that took place the night before. I honestly do not remember the exact dates of these events and I'm sorry, but I do know that the first time was after the big date. We did not go to dinner the same night that xOM came to my office. I was freaked out, and I am about fairly positive that you spent that evening on your computer and I went to bed early. 

I am also sure that there was not a specific date on the timeline. I think the only exact dates were the date of the first FB message, because it was my birthday, and the day of DDay. I know gist of when things took place, but I did not keep track of the the exact dates when they occurred. And it has been almost a year, and I have done my best to not think about them at all, so I am being honest when I say that it is extremely hard to come up with exact dates.

Again, I am so sorry for all this. That I did these things and that you have to have these thoughts swirling around your head.


----------



## MrQuatto

EI said:


> B1 and I are on a horse and carriage ride, riding through the 2nd oldest town in Kentucky. So blissful. We need to do so much more of this! We just never made the time for ourselves though the years and when we did, there were always a million other things on our minds....... Now, I must get back to enjoying this beautiful moment....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bardstown?? Love that place myself


----------



## jim123

DD,
You are tring to punish someone, YOU. Time to forgive yourself.


----------



## EI

MrQuatto said:


> Bardstown?? Love that place myself


Yes, Bardstown! It was absolutely lovely. Less than an hour from our home, yet it felt like stepping back in time..... I hadn't felt so relaxed in a very long time. We just had a simple dinner at a cafe called Pat's Place, then a horse and carriage ride through the town, complete with a history lesson, then a bit of browsing in an old shop. Finally, we came home and caught the last several minutes of the University of Louisville playing Wichita State for the win in the Final Four. 

What more could we have asked for.......


----------



## hopefulgirl

B1 said:


> Arrange a time???? I couldn't hold back at 2 months out, I would open the can of worms as soon as I walked in the door from work. Also, I would have been emailing her during work.
> I would ruin breakfast, lunch, and dinner..anything to get answers.


I am practicing restraint - most of the time. But he has an anxiety problem, and along with the guilt, I think it affected his gut the first two weeks after D-Day, which affected the air quality in our home, if you get my drift. 

The headaches have been an ongoing problem, predating this mess, and even talking can be painful. I also don't want to see him have another panic attack. So am I going easy on him? No doubt. 

He's going to IC, and he's been doing some artistic stuff (one of his hobbies) to quiet his mind, and I leave him alone when he's doing this "therapy" - though I know the headaches have to be letting up when he's playing video games. THEN I get annoyed, but he's usually doing that close to bedtime, and I don't want to start anything then for my own sake (I don't sleep well if I get revved up right before bed).

I'm trying to be methodical about this - have some positive interactions to build up good will, interspersed with times when we deal with difficult stuff. He has a hard time talking about the affair - guilt is good when you've done something this bad, but I'm dealing with someone who's afraid of having another panic attack. Fortunately, I don't have too many more questions....


----------



## calvin

Not a good day,it won't go away.
Last night CSS told me I asked for the POS calls and text to me,I was trying to defend us then.
I mean what do you do when the loser calls and says he is coming over to rape your wife and get the money owed to him for an abortion that didn't happen.
I did not ask for anything.

Fvck me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

DevastatedDad said:


> Wait, is he still contacting you and saying these things or are you remembering back?
> 
> Restraining Order?
> Call the cops?
> Kick his ass?
> Block his phone number?
> 
> If this guy is still messing with you, you gotta implement something.
> If you are just flashing back, I got no advice for you there. I am circling that drain too.


No his last call was about 6-7 weeks ago to tell me how I ruined his life,then I did something stupid and called him a few weeks ago and asked when. We were going to fight.
Early on he loved taunting me but ran when when we met up,the things he said were pretty bad and I just want him bad,it won't go away.
We have been to the cops awhile ago,nothing they can do.
I just want him so bad but I have restrained myself as far as calling him.
I did use pay phones early on when the crap happend so my number couldn't be traced.
I bothers me that CSS said I asked for this,she did say she mispoke but still.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Kick his ass DD,that's what I want and I can do it too,I don't sleep in a work truck like he does all day.
I work on the mill and I can take care of myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> Technical question. (I know. I claim to be super tech spy)
> 
> Every time I come to TAM on my phone, it logs me in as CM.
> When I got her a new phone, she test drove mine for a few days.
> Ever since when I come to TAM, I am not prompted for a login, it just takes me straight in as her. Using android and I cannot see a way to clear it out aside from refreshing the phone.
> 
> I am totally ashamed as a *software engineer right now *


*FAIL* 

Jus' Kiddin'....... I'll see if my Systems aka... Hardware/Engineer husband, B1, can figure it out....


----------



## B1

DevastatedDad said:


> Technical question. (I know. I claim to be super tech spy)
> 
> Every time I come to TAM on my phone, it logs me in as CM.
> When I got her a new phone, she test drove mine for a few days.
> Ever since when I come to TAM, I am not prompted for a login, it just takes me straight in as her. Using android and I cannot see a way to clear it out aside from refreshing the phone.
> 
> I am totally ashamed as a software engineer right now


Try this...
Login, scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page. There is a logout link there, bottom right corner. At least there is in my browser. Not sure why they hide it way down there though....


----------



## calvin

I'm letting this get to me today,I need to back off and calm down,I love CSS and I'm letting it all get to me.
I'm better than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

DevastatedDad said:


> Technical question. (I know. I claim to be super tech spy)
> 
> Every time I come to TAM on my phone, it logs me in as CM.
> When I got her a new phone, she test drove mine for a few days.
> Ever since when I come to TAM, I am not prompted for a login, it just takes me straight in as her. Using android and I cannot see a way to clear it out aside from refreshing the phone.
> 
> I am totally ashamed as a software engineer right now


If everything else fails, use a different browser - I have switched to Firefox myself - there's a setting called "Clear private data" - might do the trick.


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> I'm letting this get to me today,I need to back off and calm down,I love CSS and I'm letting it all get to me.
> I'm better than that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes Calvin you are..be calm, you got this.


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> Yes Calvin you are..be calm, you got this.


Thanks B1,I'm doing that right now,it solves nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> Thanks B1,I'm doing that right now,it solves nothing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You are letting the OM beat you.

He said all that to get to you and it has worked for over year now. He could not have your life so he took away yours. Stop letting him do that.

Take away his power over you. Be happy Think of what you have,

F him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Today has been a bad day. In our first ‘counselling’ session the other week – which was actually an initial consultation, one of the things the counsellor said was, “What things would you like to see change in each other’s behaviour?” He mentioned a few things about me, which I’ve taken on board, but today I decided to make a start on my list in preparation. It wasn't good. It just got me so upset again about the way things used to be in our marriage, that I got angry with him all over again, wondering if we can make what was so wrong, right again. Wondering if I even want to, after what he’s done.

He starts anger management counselling tomorrow. I hope that most of what was wrong in our marriage can be fixed with this. I’m really hoping this is the magic Band-Aid I’m after.

This is my list so far. It’s not good:

*Things to do*

Stop saying things like “If you’re being a b!tch, it’s okay to call you a b!tch.” If one of us is upset, and saying things which are not nice, then the other person needs to calm the situation down, NOT escalate it. Calling me names will just escalate the situation. Instead, tell me calmly that what I have said upsets you and that I’m not being nice. That will help me to calm down and realise that I am being offensive.

*Things to stop doing*

Calling me a d!ckhead, even if you think it’s a joke and you think you are being funny.

Jokingly telling me I’m not nice, especially given that I have given you another chance at our marriage. I think that’s pretty nice.

Using offensive language, e.g. using words like ‘fat’ or ‘ginger’ as pejoratives.

Swearing in front of children.

Swearing at me.

Accusing me of being ‘arsey’ instead of ‘upset’.


----------



## ChangingMe

Robsia said:


> This is my list so far. It’s not good:
> 
> *Things to do*
> 
> Stop saying things like “If you’re being a b!tch, it’s okay to call you a b!tch.” If one of us is upset, and saying things which are not nice, then the other person needs to calm the situation down, NOT escalate it. Calling me names will just escalate the situation. Instead, tell me calmly that what I have said upsets you and that I’m not being nice. That will help me to calm down and realise that I am being offensive.
> 
> *Things to stop doing*
> 
> Calling me a d!ckhead, even if you think it’s a joke and you think you are being funny.
> 
> Jokingly telling me I’m not nice, especially given that I have given you another chance at our marriage. I think that’s pretty nice.
> 
> Using offensive language, e.g. using words like ‘fat’ or ‘ginger’ as pejoratives.
> 
> Swearing in front of children.
> 
> Swearing at me.
> 
> Accusing me of being ‘arsey’ instead of ‘upset’.


Um, yes. All these things need to stop, regardless of whether or not he committed adultery. They are instances of verbal and emotional abuse. (My first counseling job was leading groups for people arrested for domestic violence, so I do have experience here.)

I am very glad he is getting anger management, though I hope it addresses the abuse part too. That goes deeper than just having difficulty controlling one's temper. 

I'm sorry, Robsia.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> You are letting the OM beat you.
> 
> He said all that to get to you and it has worked for over year now. He could not have your life so he took away yours. Stop letting him do that.
> 
> Take away his power over you. Be happy Think of what you have,
> 
> F him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is no match for me,physically,mentally or my work ethic.
I would love to get my hands on him,he will lose.He owns nothing.
He can't beat me,he's an idiot,I'm not.
Difference between him and a large pizza,a pizza can feed a family of four.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Yes - at our appointment, the counsellor told him that our relationship was abusive, which was a bit of a shock to him I think. I had told him this before, this is one of the reasons we were in trouble.

He does want to change, but first he has to recognise that his behaviour IS wrong. He was brought up in a family that thinks all these things are normal.

But he is trying, I think.

BTW, all the things I listed under "Not to do" are things he has done since D-day - so since he has been 'trying'. There is such a long way to go. But when he's not angry, he is a totally different person. I want to help him become that person all the time, or at least, as much as is humanly possible.


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> He is no match for me,physically,mentally or my work ethic.
> I would love to get my hands on him,he will lose.He owns nothing
> 
> 
> .
> He can't beat me,he's an idiot,I'm not.
> Difference between him and a large pizza,a pizza can feed a family of four.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He knows this and why he did what he did. Every moment you spend thinking of him, he is beating you. Every moment you spend in anger, he is beating you.

Take all that away from him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

hopefulgirl said:


> I am practicing restraint - most of the time. But he has an anxiety problem, and along with the guilt, I think it affected his gut the first two weeks after D-Day, which affected the air quality in our home, if you get my drift.
> 
> The headaches have been an ongoing problem, predating this mess, and even talking can be painful. I also don't want to see him have another panic attack. So am I going easy on him? No doubt.
> 
> He's going to IC, and he's been doing some artistic stuff (one of his hobbies) to quiet his mind, and I leave him alone when he's doing this "therapy" - though I know the headaches have to be letting up when he's playing video games. THEN I get annoyed, but he's usually doing that close to bedtime, and I don't want to start anything then for my own sake (I don't sleep well if I get revved up right before bed).
> 
> I'm trying to be methodical about this - have some positive interactions to build up good will, interspersed with times when we deal with difficult stuff. He has a hard time talking about the affair - guilt is good when you've done something this bad, but I'm dealing with someone who's afraid of having another panic attack. Fortunately, I don't have too many more questions....


HG, I think you are being too nice. And I'm a former wayward saying that. Anxiety and panic attacks suck, but don't let that be an excuse he gets to use to put off helping you process this. I cannot begin to tell you how anxious and panicky I have felt at times when DD and I have been in the midst of a really difficult conversation, especially early on when his anger was less controlled and he was asking lots of specific questions. I toughed it out though. How could I not? However hellish it was for me, it had to be even worse for him. 

I think your husband owes it to you to man up and take the heat. I lost 10 lbs in the few weeks after DDay (which is a lot on me; I'm only 5'2"); my stomach was in knots non-stop, I wasn't sleeping or eating. It was awful. But I caused that, so I had to deal with it as I tried to be there for DD however he would let me be. 

I like the idea of having some good times. I think that is really important, since I think having good memories to think about is great. But I can't help but think your husband is being let off the hook. It just sounds like he gets to say, "Sorry, honey, I can't talk about the damage I caused you and our marriage. I have a headache, so I'm going to just hang out by myself and do my hobbies." 

At the very least, I think you need to write out questions or feelings that you want to share with him. Early on, there were times that DD would communicate with me over email more than in person. It gave both of us time to really think through what we wanted to say, and there was less emotional response. I guess we still do this through TAM as well some. 

Keep in mind too that a panic attack will not kill him. They are awful, I know. I've had a few. You deserve to get to talk about this with him. Please know that.


----------



## Robsia

Oh we just had such a horrible FT conversation. I'm sat here crying. He was telling me all about his day and how his ex-wife from before he met me was down and he was doing her little favours and ferrying her round town to see her friend. I got so annoyed, I told him I didn't need to hear about hm being nice to his ex thank you very much. Then I told him he hadn;t even asked about my day and I'd had a really bad day.

So he asked me, and I told him about the list. I didn't read it to him, but I told him I'd been making a list for counselling about the things I would want him to change, and that remembering all the stuff had made me upset.

But instead of trying to make me feel better he just got angry and defensive. The conversation deteriorated, and I ended up apologising to HIM to making him upset. He even accused ME of being abusive towards him.

Then I told him how scared I was that we weren't going to make it. I told him I needed to hear that he still wanted this, and that he loved me. He wouldn't say it. he refused. When I asked him why, he said I was trying to manipulate him and he wouldn't give in to emotional blackmail.

I told him that I just wanted him to make me feel better and why wouldn't he do that for me. He told me that I'd pissed him off so why should he make me feel better.

I said I hadn't meant to piss him off, I was just trying to tell him how I felt, and I could really do with some reassurance and support from him. He still refused. Then I got angry, and I told him that I was going to need a lot of support from him in he coming months, and if he didn't think he was the man for the job, them to tell me now so we could put an end to this thing.

I reminded him of the conditions I'd set for not divorcing him instantly. One of them was reading the Not Just Friends book, which he ordered, but has not read. I said if he read it, it would help him understand what he needed to do to fix this thing. He said he didn't read fVcking books, and he didn't like me making demands on him.

It didn't end well. He told me again to stop pissing him off, and I yelled that he had to stop pissing me off, that he was the one who had fvcked someone else. Then I called him a ba$tard and hung up.

I'm not sure we're going to make it. I'm not sure I want to any more.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> He knows this and why he did what he did. Every moment you spend thinking of him, he is beating you. Every moment you spend in anger, he is beating you.
> 
> Take all that away from him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will when I have his teeth on my shelf.
Today is just not going anywhere for me,at all.
I'm doing all I can,working all the hours I can.I love getting up at 2:30 am.
I have my daughter fighting me over a nine volt battery,I am paying her way through college.
Ever feel like saying fvck it all and just leaving? My one day weekend sucked.All my weekends are one day,been that way for years.
I'm thankful I have a job that supports us all,I really am.

The worst thing is...no more Walking Dead for awhile.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Sorry Robsia, it doesn't look well.
I think it's time to detach a little (read, taylor the 180) and weight other options. Did you even think, envision a potential D? You should anyway but he doesn't seem inclined to help you get past it... whithout remorse there's little hope.
Asking reasurance is emotional blackmail? He won't tell what because you pissed him off becasue you didn't want to hear him how he helped another woman so early on? 
Sorry friend.


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> I will when I have his teeth on my shelf.
> Today is just not going anywhere for me,at all.
> I'm doing all I can,working all the hours I can.I love getting up at 2:30 am.
> I have my daughter fighting me over a nine volt battery,I am paying her way through college.
> Ever feel like saying fvck it all and just leaving? My one day weekend sucked.All my weekends are one day,been that way for years.
> I'm thankful I have a job that supports us all,I really am.
> 
> The worst thing is...no more Walking Dead for awhile.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am with you on the Walking Dead. Do waste anytime with a loser. He is a coward and let him live with that.

I understand you and I am not that different.

He has taken a year out of life. Do not let him take another minute. One minute of your life is more valuable then his entire lfe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Juicer

ChangingMe said:


> Keep in mind too that a panic attack will not kill him. They are awful, I know. I've had a few. You deserve to get to talk about this with him. Please know that.


Well...partly true. The attack itself can't kill you, other things that may go with the attack can. 

The panic attacks I had several months ago were devastating to me. Though they usually happened struck me at the dead of night. 
And I also had several health complications on top of the panic attack. And the health complications coupled with a panic attack could've killed me. Almost did twice actually. 

So unless he has other health issues that he is needing help with, you are right. 
But I highly doubt he has health issues to the degree I had when I was having my attacks. 

But you are probably right CM. He is using the panic attacks as a shield to avoid having to do the real heavy lifting. He probably doesn't want to even discuss what he did because of his shame, so he rather use the panic attacks as an escape goat instead of actually going through what he did with his BS.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> I am with you on the Walking Dead. Do waste anytime with a loser. He is a coward and let him live with that.
> 
> I understand you and I am not that different.
> 
> He has taken a year out of life. Do not let him take another minute. One minute of your life is more valuable then his entire lfe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Understood and you are right about that.
I really have a lot too be thankful for and I am not the type to give up.
***** maybe but never surrender.

Rosbia,I'm sorry to hear what's going on with you.Its heart wrentching and its hard. I hope he really starts giving you what you need to heal and get back to where you should be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

Yeah, I'm agreeing with DD.

I started to get that way, and nearly drove my wife away from that alone. That's with me never cheating on her! 

Your kids are watching. You don't want to teach them that pattern. You don't want them modeling this relationship in the future. Yes, divorce is hard on kids. But so is teaching them that abuse is OK. My dad NEVER even came close to hitting my mom. But he could be a royal A-hole to her. What did I end up modeling later in life? The same dang thing. Fortunately I did it only a short time and then had a major "hey, what the hell are you doing??????" I hope that I corrected it fast enough that my son isn't going to mimic me.

Let him know that you are expecting him to stay in anger management, and *IF* he's successful, he has a _CHANCE_ of getting back with you.


----------



## jim123

Now if she remembers to turn it on, she would be good.


----------



## ChangingMe

Honestly, Robsia, DD and I are on the same page here. Your husband is abusive, and he has manipulative you enough to feel like you have to apologize to him when he (verbally) attacks you. It's not right, it's not fair, and he is not going to grasp what he has to lose until you stand up to him. 

It literally pains me to think what he is doing to you. I get that you are scared, that you are hurt, that you want badly for things to work, but he HAS to see that he is going to lose you if he is going to make any changes. I have posted before that I think it helped to wake me up that on DDay, DD kicked me out. I had to pack a suitcase, leave my crying kids, and drive to my parents' house with my dog. I was in a daze, but I was also entirely freaked out about what I had done and what I thought I had lost. I decided that day that if DD would give me a chance, then I would fight like hell to try to earn him back.

You need to do a 180. It will be hard for you, but your husband HAS to see that you are willing to lose him for him to realize what is about to happen. Cut him off. Lean on us. It will be hard, and you will hurt, but I agree with others when they say that sometimes the 180 is the only way to possibly save your marriage. It might work, it might not. But either way, you will be better off. 

Hang in there, Robsia. I am sorry. We are here for you. And you will get through this -no matter what happens -and will be better on the other side.


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> By the way, I hear CM's keyboard typing a mile a minute over there.
> What ever she types, may be worth ignoring. I happen to know she is currently drunk.
> 
> Had a couple over for dinner and wine, and um she is a little glassy eyed. "in the cups" as old timer says


Hey d--khead, what I wrote is gold! I can type wisely even when I've had a few drinks. Especially when it's really important. 

DD's right though Robsia. I have had a couple drinks. But I will feel the same way tomorrow sober. Your husband is being an ass, and a bad one. Anyone that treats you like crap AFTER cheating on you is not owning his crap. It's time to really think hard about what you want and deserve. 

And, DD. don't get mad about the d--khead comment. You aren't really. But I'm drunk and you underminded my wisdom.


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> I would retort but I don't want to get banned


Don't get mad. The smiley makes it all ok, remember? 

Assh0le. :lol::smthumbup::sleeping::iagree::rofl:


----------



## old timer

Lmao @ you two
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

old timer said:


> Lmao @ you two
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He started it, OT. I swear.


----------



## calvin

Oh man,tomorrow moring is going to be rought CM.
Been there done that.
Think I might do it tomorrow again.

Hic..hic..hic..vomit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Watching Hardcore Pawn.
Is it me or are the old man and his two kids money grubbing,gold digging azzholes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

I'll be fine. Taking the day off to take my son on a field trip. I think he and I are both excited. 

About to get in the hot tube with DD.


----------



## EI

I don't have a "EI" post in me, right now. Which is a good thing..... because the truth is...... that isn't even my real name...  I would like to offer some great wisdom but CM and DD have it covered tonight...... So, ditto on what they said. 

I just wanted to say that I love you guys..... Some days when I'm too exhausted to post (Sundays are family day..... translation..... my house is in shambles) I just like to sit back, read the thread and watch how everyone takes care of everyone else..... Did I already say that I love you guys.....

CM....... pass the wine! LOL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

CM & Juicer, thank you. I got my WS to sit down and answer some questions today. Yes, the anxiety started to rise and he did ask if we could stop talking after it started to get to a certain level (but we had talked for about 45 very productive minutes by then). No, a panic attack won't take any of his current health problems to a dangerous level, but he's had a couple of serious health problems previously that were actually in that category. So perhaps I'm a little cautious on account of that - we hope those conditions don't return, but anything is possible. 

I did think I might lose him to these other medical problems, which was scary - but then on D-Day, I thought, "I'll kill him!!" 

I asked about text messages to me on specific dates, just before or after being with the OW, and he didn't remember his thought process. He said there was no great plan about how to switch gears - that would assume he had much thought process going on. 

When he texted me, he wasn't with her, so he had "put that box away." He did remember trying to leave quickly when they were done - no cuddling of any kind - wanting to "get out of there" and then he would try to get it out of his mind because he didn't feel good about it from the get go.

I asked if he thought about trying to end the A, he said yes. I asked then why didn't you. He said he didn't know. He also said on some level he didn't care about much of anything then either - he's been dealing with not just anxiety but some mild depression. (I've heard that mild depression often goes hand in hand with anxiety.) At least it didn't go on very long - they met less than a handful of times.

It ended on a positive note, he said he needed to do some deep breathing to calm himself down, which he did. I thanked him for the answers that he gave me, especially the ones about feeling guilty and wanting to get out of there quickly because those made me feel a little better. I had written down a couple questions I didn't get to, but I'll get to those another time. I felt good about getting this stuff out of my system, and I delivered all my questions in a calm, reasonable manner. I think it will make the next time a lot easier.


----------



## Robsia

I woke up this morning as angry and upset as when I went to bed. So far, I’ve made the mistake of being nice. Even on D-day, I didn’t react as he would have expected, I was upset, devastated, but not raging, not throwing things or plotting revenge. Since then I have tried to be reasonable and look at the problems in the marriage as being on both sides, promising to do my bit to fix them etc.

So I think he’s got used to me being nicey-nicey forgiving BW. Even when I’ve been upset, I’ve tried not to be too negative about it, so it doesn’t harm our ‘healing’ and ‘recovery’.

But last night for the first time he got a hint of how I’m really feeling, and he didn’t like it. I reminded him that I had expectations of him in order to not divorce him, and he didn’t like that either. He doesn’t like to jump to anyone’s tune but his own. He was happy to go along with what I wanted, so long as he wanted it too. As soon as I asked him to do something he didn’t want to, in went the heels.

Yes, I’m scared of losing him, or rather, the him that he could potentially be. But last night showed that he will happily let his pride get in the way of supporting and reassuring his devastated and hurting BW. I don’t want that man.

He’s still on probation. He’s still having to prove to me that he is worth me considering again. And I think he forgot that. The man I saw last night was not worth me considering, he was proud and stubborn and unpleasant. If he’d showed me that side of him when we were dating, I’d have shown him the door.

I’ve re-read the 180 – I’m determined not to contact him today. I don’t know what I’ll do if he contacts me. Or what I’ll do if he doesn’t.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rosbia - I'm sorry if what I am about to say isn't what you want to hear but from my experience your H is still in denial and this is possibly a false R. I went through it for months and he is showing the classic signs. The reason we went through it was because H was still in love with the OW and he was deep in his A fog. Your H is being defensive, hurtful and blame shifting. You need to toughen up now. You can't 'nice' him out of this. I was like you. I used to apologise for everything, I was so afraid of loosing him, but it just made me look weak. He needs to see that you are not afraid of losing him and that you are willing to move on without him. You have to implement some kind of 180 now. It's hard, but you have to. Stop being the one trying to fix this, for now, that's his job! You need to take a step back and concentrate on you and the kids. You need to show him that you can get through this with or without him. He's being an ass!

If he doesn't contact you DO NOTHING!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

I haven't got to the bloody hard work stage. She cheated and is still partly defending her turf. I think this might be the beginning of reconciliation & renewal but also wonder if in fact it's the opposite. It's too soon to know but it seems to me, and I stand corrected, that when we can be intimate again I will know a lot more about what the likely outcome is. Who knows how long that will be. That is the test because I refuse to live my life without intimacy. After all she went elsewhere because, to a great degree, I had given up on my self.


----------



## Robsia

Well, he did contact me, he texted me after his anger management appointment. It wasnt a sorry, but at least he didn't ignore me:

HIM: Are you feeling any better this morning? x

ME: Not really, I'm still upset and angry. Are you feeling more inclined to meet my needs this morning? How did your appointment go?

HIM: Ok, sorry to hear that. We both have needs here and I would like to help but just reading a book is not the complete answer. As you say there is a long way to go but as different people we have different needs and ways of dealing with stuff.

ME: That wasn't what I asked. Are you prepared to meet my needs to get over your affair, whatever those may be? Last night i needed you to reassure me. You refused because you didn't want to bow down and do what I was asking you to do. You let your pride get in the way, just like that night when you let me walk out of the house. I accept that the problems in the marriage were partly my fault, and I will help to fix those. But you have to, HAVE TO fix the problems caused by your infidelity. Reassuring me when I need it is part of that. If you can't or won't do your bit, then this whole thing is pointless. You;'re still on probation. The man i saw last night, the man accusing me of emotional blackmail instead of reassuring his broken and devastated wife that he loved her, was not a person I wanted to have anything to do with.


He's driving now, so I don't expect an answer anytime soon - he's going to a job.

I don't think he is still in love with the OW - she assured me it was over before Christmas. But I don't think he fully realises what he has to do to fix this. That's why I asked him to get Not Just Friends - but he won't read it. When I tell him what he needs to do from what I've read on here, he dismisses it as "stuff you've read on the internet". That was why I asked him to get the book - I thought he would respect it more if it came from a published book. I don't know how to get him to understand what he needs to do.

When we first started this, he seemed so grateful that I wasn't divorcing him instantly, that he seemed to be willing to do anything. Now we're actually in it, he's not. He's willing to do what HE'S willing to do, if that makes any sense. He's not willing to do ANYTHING because that means giving me the power.


----------



## MattMatt

He needs to understand consequences of his actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rosbia- he should know what he has to do, without reading a book, sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

I'm not sure I would know what to do without some advice and guidance. But I would be willing to do whatever it took to learn what I had to do, and implement it to the best of my ability. He doesn't like it when I point out what he's done wrong - his stock response is "Well, you're not perfect either" instead of actually addressing the issue.

We have been texting since the earlier message I posted but I'm proceeding with caution. He still hasn't apologised for upsetting me, although I apologised for upsetting him last night pretty much straightaway. But then he never did like to apologise. It's "just a word" apparently. Making me feel better never seemed to be high on his agenda.


----------



## bfree

Robsia, if he never takes actual ownership of his affair then neither of you can heal. Part of R is really taking empathy on board. The one thing you always hear from those who commit infidelity is I knew it was wrong but I never knew how destructive it was. WS initially don't see the pain it causes and part of true R is not only opening your eyes to see that pain but learning how to help the BS deal with it. Until he does that R really can't begin.

And just to add. It's not your job to find a way for him to help you heal. The journey of finding a way to atone is also part of what a WS must do in order to R.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Robsia said:


> I'm not sure I would know what to do without some advice and guidance. But I would be willing to do whatever it took to learn what I had to do, and implement it to the best of my ability. He doesn't like it when I point out what he's done wrong - his stock response is "Well, you're not perfect either" instead of actually addressing the issue.
> 
> We have been texting since the earlier message I posted but I'm proceeding with caution. He still hasn't apologised for upsetting me, although I apologised for upsetting him last night pretty much straightaway. But then he never did like to apologise. It's "just a word" apparently. Making me feel better never seemed to be high on his agenda.



You need to take a step back and let him take the lead and see where it goes,
Only then will you be able to tell if he is willing to put the work in and is truly remorseful.
If you keep pushing he's just going to shut down. Give him some space to work this out for himself.
Remember actions speak louder than words.
If you take a step back and stop trying to fix it I guarantee you be will show his true colours and you will KNOW if he is genuine or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

I'll try. It's hard though. It's a shame, as we've had a really good week. But then I've been the nice forgiving wife this week, no inconvenient negative emotions to get in the way and upset poor little him.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

calvin said:


> Thanks B1,I'm doing that right now,it solves nothing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Meds and IC could solve a LOT. But you're so damned stubborn!

You CANNOT always fix yourself. Sometimes, people need help. Ask for it, take it and use it. And get better. 

Your sex life will suffer, you say? What if you end up without a marriage? What's important, REALLY important in the long haul? Pray about it, brother. I want you two to be successful.


----------



## Robsia

What do you all make of this?

HIM: I am happy to try and help but if you upset someone it is then more difficult for them to appreciate and understand your emotional needs as they are hurting as well. It wasn't pride it was anger and upset at the comments you made. Maybe we should not have continued the conversation at all.

ME: Do or do not, there is no try, as the alien said. Time will tell if you are able to 'do'. We'll see what changes counselling brings. But I don't think you appreciate how hard this is going to be. So far you've only seen the nicey nicey wife who's trying to forgive. Even when I've been upset, I've tried not to be too negative so it doesn't harm our 'healing' and 'recovery'. Like I told you, what you actually saw last night was only a fraction of how I feel sometimes. You have to accept that you've done that to us. Getting defensive and blame-shifting is precisely the wrong thing to do.

HIM: I do accept that it is my fault. I was not blame shifting, merely trying to tell you that I was not in a position to do what you had asked. I hope that the counselling will help as we were never good at arguing before all this. I do love you and would love to be the perfect person you want me to be but I am flawed and that is what I am working on.

ME: You could easily have done what i asked and given me reassurance. You chose not to. That decision harmed us.

HIM: you could have chosen not to be rude and upset me so we were both wrong last night. Just because I have wronged you does not suddenly make you an angel

ME: I did not upset you intentionally and I apologised for that. You're getting defensive again. Your stock response when I point out something you've done wrong is "You're not perfect either" instead of actually addressing the issue. I am aware I am not perfect. Saying that does not address the problem.

HIM: Maybe you didn't but your apology makes no difference and you know that. What I am trying to point out is that upsetting someone and being angry towards them does not tend to illicit caring feelings from that person. So then asking them for that is unreasonable and if it was what you needed then you went about it in the wrong way and maybe should have started with how you felt so we could have dealt with it.

ME: Apologies might make no difference to you, but they do to me, you never could understand that, could you? That goes back to meeting each other's needs again. Sorry isn't just a word, not for me anyway. I always told you that. Saying you're sorry is not an expression of weakness, it's actually a strength. I respect someone far more who can admit that they were wrong and are sorry for the hurt that they have caused. Are ACTUALLY sorry for it. That's what I am saying when I tell you I'm sorry. It's not just a word. I actually mean it.

HIM: It is just a word and whilst you may mean it it does not detract or stop how you have made the other person feel. Yes it us right to apologise it doesn't always instantly make things right and you don't understand that part.

HIM: Anyway I have work to do now.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

ChangingMe said:


> Hey d--khead, what I wrote is gold! I can type wisely even when I've had a few drinks. Especially when it's really important.
> 
> DD's right though Robsia. I have had a couple drinks. But I will feel the same way tomorrow sober. Your husband is being an ass, and a bad one. Anyone that cheats you like crap AFTER cheating on you is not owning his crap. It's time to really think hard about what you want and deserve.
> 
> And, DD. don't get mad about the d--khead comment. You aren't really. But I'm drunk and you underminded my wisdom.


You sure write differently when you're drinking. This is kind of telling...


----------



## old timer

Robsia - he doesn't sound very remorseful to me


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## StarGazer101

Robsia your approach sounds similar to what I did. It didn't work. I spent 9 months being TT'd and going through so much pain. There was guilt but no real remorse and it was destroying me. 

Finally just after New year something snapped and I woke up and decided that was it! I'd had enough and could take no more - I was done. If he wanted OW he could have her, if he wanted to leave he could go, if he wanted me he'd better get his a$$ into gear immediately because I'd learned I didn't need him, and I wasn't even sure I wanted him any more. I was ready to end it right there and then and* I meant it*. We could both feel the difference - our whole relationship shifted from that day.

Until he really believed I'd be done with him, and he could actually taste what the consequences would be, he just said the words and did what was most comfortable for him.... he didn't understand or feel anything close to remorse. He really needed that punch in the gut to make him get down to business.

The garden hasn't been rosy since then, but we have made progress and have moved out of the hell of limbo we were living in. I so much wish I'd found TAM earlier. It is very wise advice to say that you have to be prepared to leave them to keep them. I feel so sorry for the pain you must be feeling.


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## Robsia

Well, we're already living apart. I've done all but take his hand and lead him to the information he needs as to what to do. He has booked the counselling appointments and ordered the book. In his mind, he has done what I've asked him to do. But there is so much more that will be ongoing.

I want him to WANT to do it for us, but it seems that he's beginning to resent me for it. The more I ask him to read the book or do the things that a WS is supposed to do, the more he is digging his heels in and refusing to play along because he feels I am trying to control him, and making demands.

So I need to back off. But how do I do that? We're already not living together. How can I back off further?


----------



## old timer

Robsia said:


> So I need to back off. But how do I do that? We're already not living together. How can I back off further?


You could always file for divorce...


----------



## Robsia

I did consider that last night. I already got the papers and filled them in. He knows that. But when I decided to consider R, I put that plan in abeyance for a while.


----------



## old timer

Robsia said:


> I did consider that last night. I already got the papers and filled them in. He knows that. But when I decided to consider R, I put that plan in abeyance for a while.


It may be the only thing that will get his attention.

But - you must be prepared to follow through with it.


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## Rookie4

Hello, everybody. Rookie (the barber) here, and I have a question for the WS's. But first.........As some of you know, we (Sweetie and I ) have had quite a busy month, and not in the good way. Sweetie's Mom has been very ill and we've spent more time at the hospital than at home. The doctor's have said that Sweetie's Mom is now stabilized, but her condition is subject to change and so Sweetie is stressed to the max. I think that the poor girl needs some TLC, but it's like pulling hen's teeth to get her to go anywhere. The doctor told me last night that Sweetie's mom is going to be monitored 24/7 for the foreseeable future and that she thinks it would be a good idea for Sweetie to "take a break', from things and detox. I finally convinced her to go away for a 3 day weekend, but not anywhere that we can't be back in 4 or 5 hours time, which the doctor says is plenty of time. So we are flying to Key West.
Last night we began to get ready, by defoliating Sweetie so she can wear her bathing suit. This is something I always like to do, because it usually leads to several hours of concentrated lust. 
So , now to my question. After round 2 or 3, we were lying on the sofa and Sweetie asked me if I ever did this kind of thing to the Ladies I was with, post-separation. Not specifically the hair cutting part, but general sex play. I was honest and said yes, and she got very upset and cried for a while. That's me, the buzz-kill. Do you other WS's feel this way, too? Considering that you were the ones to cheat, has it increased your level of jealousy and woory concerning your BS's possible interaction with the opposite sex? Or, like Sweetie, does it bother you but you don't feel that you have any right to complain.
After I got her to quit crying, we talked about it, and it seems that Sweetie has seen some of the women I was with after we had split up. She, of course, blames herself for "driving me into the arms of others".


----------



## daisygirl 41

Robsia said:


> Well, we're already living apart. I've done all but take his hand and lead him to the information he needs as to what to do. He has booked the counselling appointments and ordered the book. In his mind, he has done what I've asked him to do. But there is so much more that will be ongoing.
> 
> I want him to WANT to do it for us, but it seems that he's beginning to resent me for it. The more I ask him to read the book or do the things that a WS is supposed to do, the more he is digging his heels in and refusing to play along because he feels I am trying to control him, and making demands.
> 
> So I need to back off. But how do I do that? We're already not living together. How can I back off further?


180
Do not initiate contact 
Do not initiate relationship talks 
Keep it simple and to the point
Put yours and your children's needs first
Go to IC
Go to the gym
Etc etc...... He doesn't get it yet and he never will unless he has that fear of losing you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

StarGazer101 said:


> Robsia your approach sounds similar to what I did. It didn't work. I spent 9 months being TT'd and going through so much pain. There was guilt but no real remorse and it was destroying me.
> 
> Finally just after New year something snapped and I woke up and decided that was it! I'd had enough and could take no more - I was done. If he wanted OW he could have her, if he wanted to leave he could go, if he wanted me he'd better get his a$$ into gear immediately because I'd learned I didn't need him, and I wasn't even sure I wanted him any more. I was ready to end it right there and then and* I meant it*. We could both feel the difference - our whole relationship shifted from that day.
> 
> Until he really believed I'd be done with him, and he could actually taste what the consequences would be, he just said the words and did what was most comfortable for him.... he didn't understand or feel anything close to remorse. He really needed that punch in the gut to make him get down to business.
> 
> The garden hasn't been rosy since then, but we have made progress and have moved out of the hell of limbo we were living in. I so much wish I'd found TAM earlier. It is very wise advice to say that you have to be prepared to leave them to keep them. I feel so sorry for the pain you must be feeling.


Rosbia ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ same as what I've been saying to you.
Ill let it be now. Don't want you to think I'm badgering you but it's proven to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Hello, everybody. Rookie (the barber) here, and I have a question for the WS's. But first.........As some of you know, we (Sweetie and I ) have had quite a busy month, and not in the good way. Sweetie's Mom has been very ill and we've spent more time at the hospital than at home. The doctor's have said that Sweetie's Mom is now stabilized, but her condition is subject to change and so Sweetie is stressed to the max. I think that the poor girl needs some TLC, but it's like pulling hen's teeth to get her to go anywhere. The doctor told me last night that Sweetie's mom is going to be monitored 24/7 for the foreseeable future and that she thinks it would be a good idea for Sweetie to "take a break', from things and detox. I finally convinced her to go away for a 3 day weekend, but not anywhere that we can't be back in 4 or 5 hours time, which the doctor says is plenty of time. So we are flying to Key West.
> Last night we began to get ready, by defoliating Sweetie so she can wear her bathing suit. This is something I always like to do, because it usually leads to several hours of concentrated lust.
> So , now to my question. After round 2 or 3, we were lying on the sofa and Sweetie asked me if I ever did this kind of thing to the Ladies I was with, post-separation. Not specifically the hair cutting part, but general sex play. I was honest and said yes, and she got very upset and cried for a while. That's me, the buzz-kill. Do you other WS's feel this way, too? Considering that you were the ones to cheat, has it increased your level of jealousy and woory concerning your BS's possible interaction with the opposite sex? Or, like Sweetie, does it bother you but you don't feel that you have any right to complain.
> After I got her to quit crying, we talked about it, and it seems that Sweetie has seen some of the women I was with after we had split up. She, of course, blames herself for "driving me into the arms of others".



Quick answer..... I'm in a huge hurry.... Yes, I am more jealous, now! Perhaps, I don't have a "right" to complain. But, you can bet your sweet *** that that wouldn't stop me!  She is a woman staking a claim on HER man. She doesn't have the luxury of being naive, anymore. She knows that you have "recent" memories and she intends to annihilate them one at a time. Truthfully, you shouldn't want it any other way. Since you were not being unfaithful, at the time, you don't "owe" explanations or apologies, so simply be honest, but kind.... and change the subject back to the "amazingness" that is the two of you!


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## TCSRedhead

Rookie4 said:


> Hello, everybody. Rookie (the barber) here, and I have a question for the WS's. But first.........As some of you know, we (Sweetie and I ) have had quite a busy month, and not in the good way. Sweetie's Mom has been very ill and we've spent more time at the hospital than at home. The doctor's have said that Sweetie's Mom is now stabilized, but her condition is subject to change and so Sweetie is stressed to the max. I think that the poor girl needs some TLC, but it's like pulling hen's teeth to get her to go anywhere. The doctor told me last night that Sweetie's mom is going to be monitored 24/7 for the foreseeable future and that she thinks it would be a good idea for Sweetie to "take a break', from things and detox. I finally convinced her to go away for a 3 day weekend, but not anywhere that we can't be back in 4 or 5 hours time, which the doctor says is plenty of time. So we are flying to Key West.
> Last night we began to get ready, by defoliating Sweetie so she can wear her bathing suit. This is something I always like to do, because it usually leads to several hours of concentrated lust.
> So , now to my question. After round 2 or 3, we were lying on the sofa and Sweetie asked me if I ever did this kind of thing to the Ladies I was with, post-separation. Not specifically the hair cutting part, but general sex play. I was honest and said yes, and she got very upset and cried for a while. That's me, the buzz-kill. Do you other WS's feel this way, too? Considering that you were the ones to cheat, has it increased your level of jealousy and woory concerning your BS's possible interaction with the opposite sex? Or, like Sweetie, does it bother you but you don't feel that you have any right to complain.
> After I got her to quit crying, we talked about it, and it seems that Sweetie has seen some of the women I was with after we had split up. She, of course, blames herself for "driving me into the arms of others".


So, I am terribly jealous - always have been really. Last week, BH spent a lot of time on a Wednesday night with his friends. They were going to go hang out on Thursday but plans fell through. Friday night, they all went riding (motorcycles) and made stops at various places, including a strip club (no big deal to me normally). He comes home and tells me that he might just go to the party on Saturday night by himself and leave me home. I asked what changed, he said it would just be easier. But since it was a 'might', I didn't worry too much. 

The next day, he is out and running errands and texts me he's going to the party by himself. I lost it - I really went from 0 - 100 in about 5 seconds flat. I felt like I had somehow lost him. I texted and let him know that I needed to talk to him when he got home because I was NOT ok.

I was surprised and amazed when he was in the driveway 10 minutes later. I literally poured out all I had been holding in, how it hurt that he was spending every night apart and then pushing me away from spending time with him out with friends (which we rarely do anymore). He really hadn't even seen it that way. LOTS of reassurance to the point I felt kind of silly for getting so upset. We went together and all was really fun. 

Back to your point Rookie, I don't think I would ever ask those details. I really wouldn't want to know. I believe that in the moment, with the love we feel for each other, what we have together and are doing together is better than anything in the past. The rest is just mechanics and technical details I just don't need/want.

Is it possible when she asks that you can ask what it is she's looking for? I think it sounds a lot like she's looking for reassurance and is getting the opposite.


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## B1

For BS's out there...

How has the A affected other parts of your life. How is your drive, motivation, energy levels. Mine are not great and it's affecting our marriage, not The R, but our lives in general, and understandably so. 
We have so much going on and I'm just not as driven as I should be. 

Now, When it comes to the R related issues I am driven and tackeling that one. When it comes to our marriage I am ok there also...when it comes to life I am hurting. Things like yard work, parenting, handeling issues around the house, leading etc. I just don't have the drive I need to get it done right. 

Now, starting today I plan to change that, but it will be a conscious effort, it won't come easy. That's ok though EI and my family deserve to have the best me they can have.

So...to sum this up, how is your drive, motivation, and energy doing since Dday?


----------



## cpacan

B1, I was right there where you are now. I had to prioritize my energy leaving a lot of stuff in the dumpster.

Tried to make the kids not suffer from it and trying to be a better me. That left my job, my online business and house repairs in starving position. I believe it was a contributing factor when I lost my job last month.

For me, it is slowly returning - it has to. But I do seem to have more energy for family activities and my business now. So maybe and hopefully I'll reach some level of normalcy soon. Time.

But it's tough, and yes, it drained my energy totally.


----------



## bfree

B1, I believe you mentioned that you are taking medication to deal with the emotional roller coaster and ptsd symptoms. Could that be having an effect?

You also have to understand that you don't have an unlimited supply of energy. If you are devoting 40 percent to your R and another 40 percent to your marriage that only leaves 20 percent for everything else. If you have a great marriage who really cares if your lawn is overgrown.


----------



## B1

bfree said:


> B1, I believe you mentioned that you are taking medication to deal with the emotional roller coaster and ptsd symptoms. Could that be having an effect?


*BFREE:*
I am on anti-depressants, and a booster for them. I tried to come off the booster a few months ago and it wasn't good, started going back into that dark hole. These meds seem to keep me from major depression. Not sure if they are affecting energy though...will have to consider that. 

*CPA:*
Thanks for the input, maybe then it's somewhat normal?
Glad to hear your coming out of it too!


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> For BS's out there...
> 
> How has the A affected other parts of your life. How is your drive, motivation, energy levels. Mine are not great and it's affecting our marriage, not The R, but our lives in general, and understandably so.
> We have so much going on and I'm just not as driven as I should be.
> 
> Now, When it comes to the R related issues I am driven and tackeling that one. When it comes to our marriage I am ok there also...when it comes to life I am hurting. Things like yard work, parenting, handeling issues around the house, leading etc. I just don't have the drive I need to get it done right.
> 
> Now, starting today I plan to change that, but it will be a conscious effort, it won't come easy. That's ok though EI and my family deserve to have the best me they can have.
> 
> So...to sum this up, how is your drive, motivation, and energy doing since Dday?


I used to do a lot of projects,I haven't done a single one.I really used to love doing repairs and making the house look better.
Been letting a lot go,just don't feel like it anymore,my motivation is pretty much gone.
Hard enough doing the overtime,don't want to do that anymore either.
Just seems like what's the point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Quick answer..... I'm in a huge hurry.... Yes, I am more jealous, now! Perhaps, I don't have a "right" to complain. But, you can bet your sweet *** that that wouldn't stop me!  She is a woman staking a claim on HER man. She doesn't have the luxury of being naive, anymore. She knows that you have "recent" memories and she intends to annihilate them one at a time. Truthfully, you shouldn't want it any other way. Since you were not being unfaithful, at the time, you don't "owe" explanations or apologies, so simply be honest, but kind.... and change the subject back to the "amazingness" that is the two of you!


Normally, EI, I would do as you and TCSredhead suggest. I would be honest, but at the same time reassuring. My excuse is that I had just had some very interesting sex and was not on top of my game, so to speak. So when she asked , I simply said yes and went back to what I was doing, which was taking a shower. I didn't know she was crying until I got out and dried off. So, I took her by the hand and went back to the shower and gave her one. Washing her hair, scrubbing her back and "nether regions", until she got back in the proper mood. Then I shaved my initials in her ******just to show who really mattered.
But I am seriously interested in the jealousy issue. Is it me or do remorseful WS's seem to be much more jealous than they were before the affair? Sweetie does this quite a lot. She will ask questions about such and such woman, and I have to watch what I say or she will start blaming herself and at the same time show a lot of resentment towards the other women. She found out that I had slept with a woman who was 25 y.o. and cried for an hour, then asked me why I would want an old bag like her when I can have a young hottie? Now, in point of fact, Sweetie is an EXTREMELY hot woman, and most men above the age of 12 think so too. I pointed this out to her, but she said that she doesn't care who thinks she is hot except me and her only concern is do I find her as attractive as those other women. You can guess the answer to that.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Rookie4 said:


> Normally, EI, I would do as you and TCSredhead suggest. I would be honest, but at the same time reassuring. My excuse is that I had just had some very interesting sex and was not on top of my game, so to speak. So when she asked , I simply said yes and went back to what I was doing, which was taking a shower. I didn't know she was crying until I got out and dried off. So, I took her by the hand and went back to the shower and gave her one. Washing her hair, scrubbing her back and "nether regions", until she got back in the proper mood. Then I shaved my initials in her ******just to show who really mattered.
> But I am seriously interested in the jealousy issue. Is it me or do remorseful WS's seem to be much more jealous than they were before the affair? Sweetie does this quite a lot. She will ask questions about such and such woman, and I have to watch what I say or she will start blaming herself and at the same time show a lot of resentment towards the other women. She found out that I had slept with a woman who was 25 y.o. and cried for an hour, then asked me why I would want an old bag like her when I can have a young hottie? Now, in point of fact, Sweetie is an EXTREMELY hot woman, and most men above the age of 12 think so too. I pointed this out to her, but she said that she doesn't care who thinks she is hot except me and her only concern is do I find her as attractive as those other women. You can guess the answer to that.


I can't speak for ALL WS' but I can speak for me and YES - I am more insecure. After all, I shattered the trust and vows we made to each other so I'm worried/nervous that he's going to have a WTH moment and just throw it all to the wind or will find someone better/cuter/hotter/smarter/prettier without all the baggage. I'm guessing it will be better in time but maybe she can help the process by stop asking the questions?


----------



## Robsia

B1 said:


> For BS's out there...
> 
> How has the A affected other parts of your life. How is your drive, motivation, energy levels. Mine are not great and it's affecting our marriage, not The R, but our lives in general, and understandably so.
> We have so much going on and I'm just not as driven as I should be.
> 
> Now, When it comes to the R related issues I am driven and tackeling that one. When it comes to our marriage I am ok there also...when it comes to life I am hurting. Things like yard work, parenting, handeling issues around the house, leading etc. I just don't have the drive I need to get it done right.
> 
> Now, starting today I plan to change that, but it will be a conscious effort, it won't come easy. That's ok though EI and my family deserve to have the best me they can have.
> 
> So...to sum this up, how is your drive, motivation, and energy doing since Dday?


It's bad. I was unable to work for two weeks. Then i forced myself as I have deadlines. My publisher has extended my deadlines out of compassion, but I couldn't put it off forever. So I make myself work, but it's tough.

The house is a mess. I think I've hoovered up once in a month. I look after my kids, I feed them, dress them and make sure they go to school. I've been okay with the laundry - I've had that down to a routine since I had my first child, so nearly 12 years now, so that's easy to keep going with. I try to be a loving parent, but I find myself being snappy sometimes. That has got better, but the first two weeks were tough. My parents took them for a week so a) I could get some work done (the main reason, and the reason I told them) and b) so WH and I could spend some quality time together (an additional reason).

Before D-day I had just started a new diet. For some reason I've found it easy to stick to that. I think controlling what I eat, and my exercise is about the only thing I can control in my life when everything else has exploded into a zillion pieces. Also the small pleasure of seeing my weight go down gives me something to look forward to when everything else has gone to sh!t.

After what's happened this weekend I am having serious vodka cravings. Before I started my diet I was having a tough time with it. I was drinking every night, trying to deal with what I know now was the stress of FEELING something was wrong with my WH, but not actually knowing anything for certain. That lasted probably about two months before I took myself in hand and told myself off most severely. So I started dieting and quit drinking. This week spending time with my WH I made the mistake of getting in some wine to go with our cosy meals in. I am fighting the urge to go to the supemarket and pick up a cheapie bottle of vodka and just get so sloshed I can forget about it all.

But I know it's not the answer, so I'm trying to resist it. I'm not going to let him turn me into a lush.


----------



## bfree

Rookie, maybe it's because they came so close to losing everything that they treasure it that much more and guard it accordingly. Frankly that would make sense to me if it is the case.


----------



## Rookie4

B1 said:


> For BS's out there...
> 
> How has the A affected other parts of your life. How is your drive, motivation, energy levels. Mine are not great and it's affecting our marriage, not The R, but our lives in general, and understandably so.
> We have so much going on and I'm just not as driven as I should be.
> 
> Now, When it comes to the R related issues I am driven and tackeling that one. When it comes to our marriage I am ok there also...when it comes to life I am hurting. Things like yard work, parenting, handeling issues around the house, leading etc. I just don't have the drive I need to get it done right.
> 
> Now, starting today I plan to change that, but it will be a conscious effort, it won't come easy. That's ok though EI and my family deserve to have the best me they can have.
> 
> So...to sum this up, how is your drive, motivation, and energy doing since Dday?


B1, for about a month after D-day, I basically drank myself stupid, didn't give a sh*t about work or pretty much anything else. It was when I accepted the idea that my marriage was Kaput, that I began to get back on my game. IDK how I would have felt if we had stayed married, but I assume that my attitude/drive would not have been as sharp as before D-day, and it would have taken a lot more effort to maintain a positive outlook. Maybe, in your case it is something medical, like Bfree suggests? Do you take care of yourself? Exercise, take Vitamins, Etc? Could your meds be the problem? If I were you I would talk to the Doc and see what he says. For me, the more I do, the more I want to do.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Rookie4 said:


> B1, for about a month after D-day, I basically drank myself stupid, didn't give a sh*t about work or pretty much anything else. It was when I accepted the idea that my marriage was Kaput, that I began to get back on my game. IDK how I would have felt if we had stayed married, but I assume that my attitude/drive would not have been as sharp as before D-day, and it would have taken a lot more effort to maintain a positive outlook. Maybe, in your case it is something medical, like Bfree suggests? Do you take care of yourself? Exercise, take Vitamins, Etc? Could your meds be the problem? If I were you I would talk to the Doc and see what he says. For me, the more I do, the more I want to do.


Quoted for truth, especially the last sentence.


----------



## calvin

Just honestly seems hard to get motivated anymore,I liked coming home having a few beers and doing yardwork,work on the trucks or just about anything.
Now I have to really push myself to get started on anything,I don't really know why.Usually once I get started I'm good.
Getting off my ass is the hardest part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Was just talking to my counselor today about how hard it is for me to get motivated and how I used to love going to the library and walking the dog or just sitting outside reading. I figure it is because Im unemplyed. Been feeling a bit more energy but I have a hard time getting out of bed. There is no job to go to, just housework and that's getting old and for some reason I'm losing my desire to come on TAM because it makes me more depressed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> Hello, everybody. Rookie (the barber) here, and I have a question for the WS's. But first.........As some of you know, we (Sweetie and I ) have had quite a busy month, and not in the good way. Sweetie's Mom has been very ill and we've spent more time at the hospital than at home. The doctor's have said that Sweetie's Mom is now stabilized, but her condition is subject to change and so Sweetie is stressed to the max. I think that the poor girl needs some TLC, but it's like pulling hen's teeth to get her to go anywhere. The doctor told me last night that Sweetie's mom is going to be monitored 24/7 for the foreseeable future and that she thinks it would be a good idea for Sweetie to "take a break', from things and detox. I finally convinced her to go away for a 3 day weekend, but not anywhere that we can't be back in 4 or 5 hours time, which the doctor says is plenty of time. So we are flying to Key West.
> Last night we began to get ready, by defoliating Sweetie so she can wear her bathing suit. This is something I always like to do, because it usually leads to several hours of concentrated lust.
> So , now to my question. After round 2 or 3, we were lying on the sofa and Sweetie asked me if I ever did this kind of thing to the Ladies I was with, post-separation. Not specifically the hair cutting part, but general sex play. I was honest and said yes, and she got very upset and cried for a while. That's me, the buzz-kill. Do you other WS's feel this way, too? Considering that you were the ones to cheat, has it increased your level of jealousy and woory concerning your BS's possible interaction with the opposite sex? Or, like Sweetie, does it bother you but you don't feel that you have any right to complain.
> After I got her to quit crying, we talked about it, and it seems that Sweetie has seen some of the women I was with after we had split up. She, of course, blames herself for "driving me into the arms of others".


I can agree with TCSRedhead and EI. Prior to my affair, I was really only insecure about 1 previous relationship of Matt's. And I could recognize that it was a stupid insecurity, so it didn't really bother me that much.

Now, I'm really struggling because I want so badly to be with Matt and him with me. The ripple effects of the affair and the insecurities that it has brought out in me were things I could NEVER have expected, even if I had been thinking clearly in choosing an affair. His ex-wife has rekindled a "friendship" with him - one where she texts him that she is in the bathtub thinking about regrets, dreaming of him making her kitchen towels, and arranging "family" trips to the zoo for herself, him, our son, her children, and Matt's siblings and mother. I am conveniently not mentioned. She tells him her children by her 2nd husband wish Matt was their dad instead.

Matt also has a friendship with a former student that he admitted to having a crush on. They text and talk often, and when I was in New York in the summers, she would come over and watch a movie or just hang out. I never thought anything about it, and was never jealous of her. Now I'm terrified all the time that all it will take is one indication from her that she would be receptive to a relationship with him and he'll be out the door for someone more beautiful, with more similar hobbies to him, and without all the pain and horror that I inflicted on him. I think he's going to see her this weekend several hours away for a fashion event she got him a ticket to. 

I WANT him to have friends, and support, and fun in his life. God knows we both have felt like that has been missing at times. I don't want to be a hypocritical b1tch. I know that I broke our vows and ended our marriage. But I am so crushed every time he chooses to spend time or share conversation with one of them instead of me. It's so stupid. It's petty and jealous and I hate feeling that way. If I hadn't cheated, I wouldn't have anything to worry about. You reap what you sow, and as Matt and I discussed yesterday, I probably haven't begun to see the full ramifications of what I've done. So I try to be supportive of him, not show him my fears/hurt over what may or may not happen. I DID this. I MADE this my reality. And in some ways, it helps me empathize with a BS more every single day. I have spent probably 10-12 hours since Friday night visualizing Matt and this former student laughing together at this upcoming event, having a few drinks, and leaning in for that first electric kiss before heading back to her place. It's so self-torturing and unproductive. Matt is a better person than me. But I believe that if he had a sure thing to move on to and felt financially secure doing that, he would be out the door. So I guess every time he interacts with another female, I wonder if she's the one he'll be happy with and leave me for.

I have no right to feel that way. But I do.


----------



## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> It's just that it's hard to not feel depressed when you know your huband hates his life and it's my fault.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin does not hate his life. He hates where he currently is in his life.

ANd don't get depressed.

Use that emotion and make up your mind to get out, find a job and improve your life together.

I think you putting forth that effort would make Calvin very happy.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



CantSitStill said:


> Was just talking to my counselor today about how hard it is for me to get motivated and how I used to love going to the library and walking the dog or just sitting outside reading. I figure it is because Im unemplyed. Been feeling a bit more energy but I have a hard time getting out of bed. There is no job to go to, just housework and that's getting old and for some reason I'm losing my desire to come on TAM because it makes me more depressed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need a job bad. You're name is can't sit still and you can't get out of bed? Not good.


----------



## Robsia

Tell you what - it's bloody hard being an erotic romance writer when your own love life is shot to hell.


----------



## CantSitStill

I haven't experienced anything to be jealous about but the thought of him him someone else oh my gosh. It would be awful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I haven't experienced anything to be jealous about but the thought of him him someone else oh my gosh. It would be awful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really??????
Oh God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

just to let u know - i kinda failed with the whole not buying vodka thing. But at least I didn;t txt him - yay me.


----------



## StarGazer101

Robsia said:


> just to let u know - i kinda failed with the whole not buying vodka thing. But at least I didn;t txt him - yay me.


 Yayyy you!


----------



## ChangingMe

Hello everyone!

You guys have been very chatty today! First off, let me apologize for my typing errors last night. Not sure what got into me . . . besides the 3 glasses of wine.  I still agree with the points I made though. Except for the d--khead and assh0le comments -DD is neither. And he was quite fun and kind last night and again this morning. So, my sincerest apologies, DD. Unless that is what got you in the mood, and if so, then I can come up with some worse names to call you! 

I had one of the best days today that I've had in a long time, spent with the other man in my life. Our son is 5 and in pre-k, and his class went to see Suessical the Musical today, so I took the day off and we had a "Mom and Son Day." It was awesome: the play, a nice lunch, playing at a park, ice cream at an old soda fountain, and a new toy. We were downtown, and he loves revolving doors and skyscrapers, so we kept going to random buildings and spinning through the doors and riding the elevators. Got some strange looks, but I know it is a day I will remember for a long time. Hopefully he does too.

Going to do a "Mom and Daughter Day" next week with baby girl. I need to do these regularly; I don't take one-on-one time with them all that often (usually I have them both together), and it was really special.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Hello, everybody. Rookie (the barber) here, and I have a question for the WS's.





Rookie4 said:


> Hello, everybody. Rookie (the barber) here, and I have a question for the *former* WS's.


I fixed that for ya! 

You're welcome.......


----------



## Robsia

EI said:


> I fixed that for ya!
> 
> You're welcome.......


Not sure I'd agree with that, actually. Once a cheater...

It's like if you kill someone, you're always a murderer, even if you never kill someone again. The fact that you've done it once kind of brands you.


----------



## calvin

Robsia said:


> Not sure I'd agree with that, actually. Once a cheater...
> 
> It's like if you kill someone, you're always a murderer, even if you never kill someone again. The fact that you've done it once kind of brands you.


I understand what you're saying here Robsia but honestly that is a huge stretch.
Infidelity and murder are worlds apart and in a twisted way...the same.
People learn,they come to the point in their minds what they did was wrong,some don't learn and never will.
Its not a mistake,they made the choice to do the deed,they did not think about the collateral damage they would cause.
If you kill someone,there are many victims,if you cheat,also many people who go through hurt who should not have too.
People can turn their lives around,be it one who cheated or someone who killed but the comparison is way out of whack here.
A murderer is usually planning on the deed,a cheater falls into it most of the time,they try to get out of it but get sucked back in.
A murderer,cheater,thief,drunk driver who did it once is so socked by what they did they do things to change right away.
I can't slap the cheater lable on CSS,she does not deserve it,same as a guy I used too know who actually killed someone.
He changed and helped me out of a tough situation when I was 18.
If they do it more than once,the lable applies.
Once and learn from it and never do it again,then they deserve a shot.
Circumstances also come into play.

Christ,doesent everyone just love this crap??
Ok,I need to take a breather.....

People can atone for something they did wrong,its hard to believe but I think its true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Robsia said:


> Not sure I'd agree with that, actually. Once a cheater...
> 
> It's like if you kill someone, you're always a murderer, even if you never kill someone again. The fact that you've done it once kind of brands you.


yep what a nice label to have (eye roll)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I really think I don't like this place anymore..been feeling that way for a while..My best wishes to all of you. Too many triggers here, yeah surprise..a WS triggers too and it sucks..yes I have the WS label. This just sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> Not sure I'd agree with that, actually. Once a cheater...
> 
> It's like if you kill someone, you're always a murderer, even if you never kill someone again. The fact that you've done it once kind of brands you.


So if someone breaks into my house and I shoot them am I to forever be classified as a murderer?

What you are proposing here is a very slippery slope. I do not believe that once a cheater always a cheater. Not at all. Situations surrounding infidelity are rarely straight forward and always complicated. I've know several people that committed infidelity and they are the sweetest kindest most moral people I have ever known. If someone cheats and atones for their terrible choice why should they forever be branded with the scarlet letter. I see a clear and distinct difference between a WS and a fWS. I do understand your situation however and the uncertainty of which you have on your hands. And I am sorry for the anguish you are experiencing.


----------



## EI

Robsia said:


> Not sure I'd agree with that, actually. Once a cheater...
> 
> It's like if you kill someone, you're always a murderer, even if you never kill someone again. The fact that you've done it once kind of brands you.


Well I, respectfully, disagree. Certainly, there are serial cheaters, but that doesn't mean that everyone who has ever been unfaithful is going to be unfaithful, again. We can attach all kinds of negative labels to people because everyone has failures, flaws and weaknesses. But, when someone turns away from the behavior that generated the "label" to begin with, and works very hard to make amends to those whom have been hurt by their behavior, then I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to branded with the Scarlet letter of a cheater for the rest of their lives. Branding is for cattle. 

At one point in my life I was a wayward spouse. I am no longer. I am a former WS. But, more importantly, I am a Christian, a wife, a mother, a sister, a friend. I am not perfect in any of those roles.... But, I refuse to accept the "brand" of the worst decision that I've ever made in my life. If you judge me, then you must judge me based on the sum total of my life's accomplishments and failures. 

My children call me "Mom." My husband has chosen, still, to call me "wife." There are many who know that I was once a cheater, yet they call me "friend."


----------



## B1

I seriously would not be staying with EI if she was "always" a cheater.

I know your in a bad place Robsia and I am so sorry for that. But we have some very remorseful ws here who don't deserve to be called always a cheater. That would indicate they are still cheating, that they are not sorry and they would do it again and again.


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I really think I don't like this place anymore..been feeling that way for a while..My best wishes to all of you. Too many triggers here, yeah surprise..a WS triggers too and it sucks..yes I have the WS label. This just sucks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All roads lead back to Tams honey.
You're a good person who fvcked up...big time but its what you have done to set things right that really matter.
I love you and I do forgive you....Yeah there I said it!!
I forgive and love you.
Enough,for both of us.
Time for me to get out of the fvcking pity party and put my boots back on.
You're a good girl and I will always love you.

No more farting in bed and pulling the covers over your head,I promise.
You have paid your dues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> Well I, respectfully, disagree. Certainly, there are serial cheaters, but that doesn't mean that everyone who has ever been unfaithful is going to be unfaithful, again. We can attach all kinds of negative labels to people because everyone has failures, flaws and weaknesses. But, when someone turns away from the behavior that generated the "label" to begin with, and works very hard to make amends to those whom have been hurt by their behavior, then I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to branded with the Scarlet letter of a cheater for the rest of their lives. Branding is for cattle.
> 
> At one point in my life I was a wayward spouse. I am no longer. I am a former WS. But, more importantly, I am a Christian, a wife, a mother, a sister, a friend. I am not perfect in any of those roles.... But, I refuse to accept the "brand" of the worst decision that I've ever made in my life. If you judge me, then you must judge me based on the sum total of my life's accomplishments and failures.
> 
> My children call me "Mom." My husband has chosen, still, to call me "wife." There are many who know that I was once a cheater, yet they call me "friend."


Hi, I'm bfree. I am a Christian, a father, a husband, a brother and a son. I am also an alchoholic, a drug addict, a womanizer, a heathen, a sinner, a criminal....

I have done some terrible things in my life but I refuse to allow myself to be defined by them. I have done everything I can to atone for my past misdeeds and I try to live my life the best way I know how.

John 8:7 Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone....


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> Not sure I'd agree with that, actually. Once a cheater...
> 
> It's like if you kill someone, you're always a murderer, even if you never kill someone again. The fact that you've done it once kind of brands you.


I would hope that if a person was remorseful and put forth the effort, they would have the small portion of their life where they effed up put behind and forgiven in light of the remaining portions of their life as a good wife, mother, friend, lover. Not forgotten but not branded on their forehead either. 

Maybe that's too much to hope for. Ouch. Why bother with reconciliation if that's a permanent label?


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> All roads lead back to Tams honey.
> You're a good person who fvcked up...big time but its what you have done to set things right that really matter.
> I love you and I do forgive you....Yeah there I said it!!
> I forgive and love you.
> Enough,for both of us.
> Time for me to get out of the fvcking pity party and put my boots back on.
> You're a good girl and I will always love you.
> 
> No more farting in bed and pulling the covers over your head,I promise.
> You have paid your dues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I want to hit the "like" button a million times! :smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> I want to hit the "like" button a million times! :smthumbup:


Yeah,its time.
Its getting it out of my system.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

he just said he forgives me...and I think he really means it. Praise God. That is huge for us
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

he has said it before but I feel it this time my gut, intuition or something says he really does
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> he just said he forgives me...and I think he really means it. Praise God. That is huge for us
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do,I'm spent,had enough.It makes me tired and is robbing me of my energy and more.
I'm tired of it.
I trust her as much as I can which is actually a lot now.I know she loves me.
Hell, she adores me.

Ok,so do I have enough wittness's here??

My energy went to the wrong place.

Done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

DevastatedDad said:


> um....
> 
> In Robsia's defense... She is still very new to this.
> Didn't she just find out? I'd bet when it was as new to us is it is her, we thought "once.. always.."
> 
> I was farther out than she is and calling CM a effing wh0re
> 
> Whether she is right , wrong, you agree, disagree, let's not forget that she is not 400 pages into her journey yet.
> 
> And for the record, Robsia I am not sure I agree with you but I know why you think that at this point. I still sometimes do and it has been many months for me.
> 
> sorry to challenge the room.
> 
> as you were.


Rosbia's pain is very fresh yet.
I don't blame her for feeling the way she does right now.
I was there also and I know others felt the same thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> he has said it before but I feel it this time my gut, intuition or something says he really does
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Then, accept this beautiful gift and focus less on punishing yourself, and more on loving him..... and yourself, CSS. You are a beautiful person, inside and out. Calvin loves you so very much. That's why this has hurt him so deeply. You have shown a tremendous amount of remorse, humility and an unwavering willingness to own your transgressions. He may, at times, feel beaten by this, but he isn't broken and he chooses everyday to keep on fighting for this marriage. Be amazing everyday. Calvin already seems to think you are.

I am genuinely hopeful that the two of you are reaching a real turning point in a positive direction.


----------



## bfree

We were all in that place at one point, that is true. When we blindly trusted our loved ones we wore rose colored glasses. Then we were betrayed and the lenses turned blood red. Now we are all in a better place. Our vision is 20/20 and we no longer need glasses at all (okay, some of us are still wearing contacts but not for long.) Regardless of how her marriage succeeds or fails she will get there in time.


----------



## B1

DevastatedDad said:


> um....
> 
> In Robsia's defense... She is still very new to this.
> Didn't she just find out? I'd bet when it was as new to us is it is her, we thought "once.. always.."
> 
> I was farther out than she is and calling CM a effing wh0re
> 
> Whether she is right , wrong, you agree, disagree, let's not forget that she is not 400 pages into her journey yet.
> 
> And for the record, Robsia I am not sure I agree with you but I know why you think that at this point. I still sometimes do and it has been many months for me.
> 
> sorry to challenge the room.
> 
> as you were.


We like challenges here and every opinion is valuable, it's how she's feels and she is really hurting right now. I understand too. Even though I disagree with her, her feelings and opinions are still hers and they are real and valid. Robsia, sorry for your pain, I understand that too.

The word Viagra came up today (the om used it a lot) and I about lost it, tears welled up, I held it in though, it took everything in me to not just buckle and sob. Yes, it can still sting like that. I, and many others know your pain all to well.


----------



## B1

Yeah for CSS and Calvin..a breakthrough


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> All roads lead back to Tams honey.
> You're a good person who fvcked up...big time but its what you have done to set things right that really matter.
> I love you and I do forgive you....Yeah there I said it!!
> I forgive and love you.
> Enough,for both of us.
> Time for me to get out of the fvcking pity party and put my boots back on.
> You're a good girl and I will always love you.
> 
> No more farting in bed and pulling the covers over your head,I promise.
> You have paid your dues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Welcome to freedom. Cook something special together this weekend. What is the first thing you made together?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Robsia, your D-Day was so recent that the pain of being betrayed is still in the "critical stages" for you. My heart aches when I read your posts. B1 and I look back and we have no idea how we managed to survive the first few weeks, even months, after D-Day. 

Although it is probably difficult, if not impossible, for a BS to understand, WS's hurt, too...... for a myriad of reasons. It is just as important to me that B1 heals as it is to him. I can't heal until/unless he does. I wouldn't ask him or want him to stay in this marriage with me if he truly felt that I was a "cheater." Yes, I cheated, but that doesn't define me. I want to be better than that for B1, my children and myself. I can't change yesterday, but I know who I am today.

I truly hope that your husband steps up and is able to give you what you need to heal. Believe it or not, the way you describe your husband, at times, is not very far removed from my own words and actions in the first several weeks after D-Day. Ten months has made a huge difference. 

I wish you all the best!


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> Welcome to freedom. Cook something special together this weekend. What is the first thing you made together?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Spaghetti and I make it good.
Night,up in four hours.

):-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

I'm sorry Robsia - I can't even begin to imagine your pain.


----------



## TCSRedhead

DevastatedDad said:


> Time for a laugh
> 
> Read the whole article.
> 
> The payoff is in the last sentence...
> 
> 
> Suffering from 'tattoo regret' - CNN.com


Ok, now that was funny! I've seen some strange tattoos in my lifetime but I think that one 'takes the cake'. Or pie? :rofl:


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I can agree with TCSRedhead and EI. Prior to my affair, I was really only insecure about 1 previous relationship of Matt's. And I could recognize that it was a stupid insecurity, so it didn't really bother me that much.
> 
> Now, I'm really struggling because I want so badly to be with Matt and him with me. The ripple effects of the affair and the insecurities that it has brought out in me were things I could NEVER have expected, even if I had been thinking clearly in choosing an affair. His ex-wife has rekindled a "friendship" with him - one where she texts him that she is in the bathtub thinking about regrets, dreaming of him making her kitchen towels, and arranging "family" trips to the zoo for herself, him, our son, her children, and Matt's siblings and mother. I am conveniently not mentioned. She tells him her children by her 2nd husband wish Matt was their dad instead.
> 
> Matt also has a friendship with a former student that he admitted to having a crush on. They text and talk often, and when I was in New York in the summers, she would come over and watch a movie or just hang out. I never thought anything about it, and was never jealous of her. Now I'm terrified all the time that all it will take is one indication from her that she would be receptive to a relationship with him and he'll be out the door for someone more beautiful, with more similar hobbies to him, and without all the pain and horror that I inflicted on him. I think he's going to see her this weekend several hours away for a fashion event she got him a ticket to.
> 
> I WANT him to have friends, and support, and fun in his life. God knows we both have felt like that has been missing at times. I don't want to be a hypocritical b1tch. I know that I broke our vows and ended our marriage. But I am so crushed every time he chooses to spend time or share conversation with one of them instead of me. It's so stupid. It's petty and jealous and I hate feeling that way. If I hadn't cheated, I wouldn't have anything to worry about. You reap what you sow, and as Matt and I discussed yesterday, I probably haven't begun to see the full ramifications of what I've done. So I try to be supportive of him, not show him my fears/hurt over what may or may not happen. I DID this. I MADE this my reality. And in some ways, it helps me empathize with a BS more every single day. I have spent probably 10-12 hours since Friday night visualizing Matt and this former student laughing together at this upcoming event, having a few drinks, and leaning in for that first electric kiss before heading back to her place. It's so self-torturing and unproductive. Matt is a better person than me. But I believe that if he had a sure thing to move on to and felt financially secure doing that, he would be out the door. So I guess every time he interacts with another female, I wonder if she's the one he'll be happy with and leave me for.
> 
> I have no right to feel that way. But I do.


MM, this is very helpful and a really honest post.


----------



## Rookie4

B1 said:


> Yeah for CSS and Calvin..a breakthrough


This is great for Calvin and CSS :smthumbup:, but I'm still not doing any group hugs.


----------



## Vanilla Tree

I hope you all don't mind a newbie gatecrasher here. After lurking for months, I started my own thread mostly as a way of sharing my story and here I am.

I have found this thread fascinating, insightful and painful all at the one time. The raw grief, the helplessness and the pain is joined by optimism, hope and healing. I'm still at the former, and have hope that one day I will be part of the latter.

For my own two cents worth, reconciliation is something I cannot even begin to think about proceeding with. 

For me, it is about having the marriage we both deserve. By that I mean soulmates, best friends, he will have my back and I his. He will be the first person I turn to, and he will provide the love and support I need to get through anything. Having a partner in life should make me feel invincible and able to deal with the world. 

He cannot do that for me yet and I certainly cannot do it for him. I need to want too, I need to have his back too.

I'm not ready. Even if I was to forgive which I know I will as soon as the anger and hurt subsides (it's been 5 weeks) I'm not sure I can be who I should be for him, even if I am convinced he can play the role for me. 

Just my thoughts. 

Thank you for sharing your stories. Love and light to you all


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## daisygirl 41

Yay for Calvin and CSS. Forgiveness is a wonderful gift, for both of you!
What a huge step!
Please don't disappear CSS, although I do understand why you want to sometimes.

B1 in response to your post, I too have a severe lack of energy at times and feel very unmotivated to do things. I find myself creeping into a depression sometimes, something I have always struggled with though pre A. But I just try and listen to my body and when it's telling me I need a day of doing nothing, then I do the bare minimum, but am mindful of not letting myself fall into a depression and shake myself out of my funk after a day or too.

One thing I am finding strange is that my brain is a kind of mish mash. As if its almost shut down at times. I forget things and words and almost feel stupid at times. I was in the last year of my degree when I found out about Hs affair ( I got a first class honours by the way) so I'm not dull but I sometimes feel like I've had a brain overload or something and even when I'm writing here in TAM I can't find the words to express myself properly! I can also sit playing 'candy crush' for hours on my iPhone and that's not good!!!

Anyway, motivated myself for today, we are of for a family day out. Picnic ready, kids sorted, one last game of Candy Crush!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Good morning......ugh!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Mrs M - you have every right to feel the way you do. Two wrongs don't make a right. In my opinion Matts ex was overstepping the mark and this new friendship sounds like its moving into the realms of an EA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

calvin said:


> Good morning......ugh!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You ok Calvin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

I want to apologise to anyone I offended with my opinion last night.

I made a bad decision - I was in a bad place and I decided that the best way to feel better was to get drunk.

Then I took my anger toward my husband out on the fWSs here by making an insensitive comment.

For the record, that is still my opinion, at the moment, but maybe it was one that should not have been stated here. It was certainly not meant to be a personal attack on EI as it might have come across - it was me lashing out in pain, but that was not aimed at anyone here.

I'm sorry  Please let me stay in your gang.


----------



## Robsia

Vanilla Tree said:


> I hope you all don't mind a newbie gatecrasher here. After lurking for months, I started my own thread mostly as a way of sharing my story and here I am.
> 
> I have found this thread fascinating, insightful and painful all at the one time. The raw grief, the helplessness and the pain is joined by optimism, hope and healing. I'm still at the former, and have hope that one day I will be part of the latter.
> 
> For my own two cents worth, reconciliation is something I cannot even begin to think about proceeding with.
> 
> For me, it is about having the marriage we both deserve. By that I mean soulmates, best friends, he will have my back and I his. He will be the first person I turn to, and he will provide the love and support I need to get through anything. Having a partner in life should make me feel invincible and able to deal with the world.
> 
> He cannot do that for me yet and I certainly cannot do it for him. I need to want too, I need to have his back too.
> 
> I'm not ready. Even if I was to forgive which I know I will as soon as the anger and hurt subsides (it's been 5 weeks) I'm not sure I can be who I should be for him, even if I am convinced he can play the role for me.
> 
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your stories. Love and light to you all


Welcome to the club. I don't tend to read the new threads much - I find them too painful, so I haven't read your story.

It's been five weeks for me too, five weeks tomorrow so we're at similar stages.

I too have not decided to commit to R yet. But I've turned away from fully deciding to D. It's so very hard. Sometimes it seems like we will be fine, and then when I have a bad day, it seems impossible that we'll ever be anything approaching fine again.


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## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> You ok Calvin?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah dg,I'm good,I'm at work now and more awake,way too early to start the day,only eleven more hours too goo!!
)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

You're alright Rosbia,I hope your H "gets" it soon and starts giving you what you need to heal,your feelings are understandable.
Hang tight,you will get better,it may not seem like it now but its very early for you.
I'm sorry you're going through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Robsia said:


> I want to apologise to anyone I offended with my opinion last night.
> 
> I made a bad decision - I was in a bad place and I decided that the best way to feel better was to get drunk.
> 
> Then I took my anger toward my husband out on the fWSs here by making an insensitive comment.
> 
> For the record, that is still my opinion, at the moment, but maybe it was one that should not have been stated here. It was certainly not meant to be a personal attack on EI as it might have come across - it was me lashing out in pain, but that was not aimed at anyone here.
> 
> I'm sorry  Please let me stay in your gang.



I honestly didn't take it as a personal attack. I took it as you expressing your personal opinion and I responded by doing the same. I felt the need to express it, in part, for your benefit so that you might see that should your husband step up, own his decision to cheat and begin to properly assist you in the healing process that there could come a day when you may feel differently. If you eventually "R" and stay in the marriage, then for your own sake, I hope you do.


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> One thing I am finding strange is that my brain is a kind of mish mash. As if its almost shut down at times. I forget things and words and almost feel stupid at times. I was in the last year of my degree when I found out about Hs affair ( I got a first class honours by the way) so I'm not dull but I sometimes feel like I've had a brain overload or something and even when I'm writing here in TAM I can't find the words to express myself properly! I can also sit playing 'candy crush' for hours on my iPhone and that's not good!!!


DG,

It's funny that you say that..... I have been "losing words" for months now. I ask B1 several times a day if a certain word sounds right in a sentence or if it is indeed even a word. It's as if my brain simply cannot make the connections. It almost terrifies me because "words" and "writing" we're always subjects that came naturally to me. Sometimes I re-read old posts of mine and I shake my head wondering what I was thinking when I wrote them. English and grammar were always two of my A++ subjects. 

It never occurred to me that it could be "A" related. Unless "A" stands for age.... I think that's the "A" I was associating it with. Of course, I know that B1's original question was directed towards the effects of the "A" on the BS's.


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## Lister

Rookie4 said:


> Hello, everybody. Rookie (the barber) here, and I have a question for the WS's. But first.........As some of you know, we (Sweetie and I ) have had quite a busy month, and not in the good way. Sweetie's Mom has been very ill and we've spent more time at the hospital than at home. The doctor's have said that Sweetie's Mom is now stabilized, but her condition is subject to change and so Sweetie is stressed to the max. I think that the poor girl needs some TLC, but it's like pulling hen's teeth to get her to go anywhere. The doctor told me last night that Sweetie's mom is going to be monitored 24/7 for the foreseeable future and that she thinks it would be a good idea for Sweetie to "take a break', from things and detox. I finally convinced her to go away for a 3 day weekend, but not anywhere that we can't be back in 4 or 5 hours time, which the doctor says is plenty of time. So we are flying to Key West.
> Last night we began to get ready, by defoliating Sweetie so she can wear her bathing suit. This is something I always like to do, because it usually leads to several hours of concentrated lust.
> So , now to my question. After round 2 or 3, we were lying on the sofa and Sweetie asked me if I ever did this kind of thing to the Ladies I was with, post-separation. Not specifically the hair cutting part, but general sex play. I was honest and said yes, and she got very upset and cried for a while. That's me, the buzz-kill. Do you other WS's feel this way, too? Considering that you were the ones to cheat, has it increased your level of jealousy and woory concerning your BS's possible interaction with the opposite sex? Or, like Sweetie, does it bother you but you don't feel that you have any right to complain.
> After I got her to quit crying, we talked about it, and it seems that Sweetie has seen some of the women I was with after we had split up. She, of course, blames herself for "driving me into the arms of others".


Hi Rookie, as a WS I have thought a lot about how i would feel if Stargazer chose to be with someone else (one night stand or permanently). The answer is it would devastate me, I don't think i could handle it. i've imagined lying awake picturing her with someone else, loving someone else and it's heartbreaking. In short i'm not sure I would have the strength to do what she is doing for me, trying to forgive me.

i think it's important to try and visualise these things as a way to try and get some tiny inkling of the pain i have put her through.


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## EI

Vanilla Tree said:


> I hope you all don't mind a newbie gatecrasher here. After lurking for months, I started my own thread mostly as a way of sharing my story and here I am.
> 
> I have found this thread fascinating, insightful and painful all at the one time. The raw grief, the helplessness and the pain is joined by optimism, hope and healing. I'm still at the former, and have hope that one day I will be part of the latter.
> 
> For my own two cents worth, reconciliation is something I cannot even begin to think about proceeding with.
> 
> For me, it is about having the marriage we both deserve. By that I mean soulmates, best friends, he will have my back and I his. He will be the first person I turn to, and he will provide the love and support I need to get through anything. Having a partner in life should make me feel invincible and able to deal with the world.
> 
> He cannot do that for me yet and I certainly cannot do it for him. I need to want too, I need to have his back too.
> 
> I'm not ready. Even if I was to forgive which I know I will as soon as the anger and hurt subsides (it's been 5 weeks) I'm not sure I can be who I should be for him, even if I am convinced he can play the role for me.
> 
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your stories. Love and light to you all


Welcome to the "R" thread Vanilla Tree. I'm sorry that you're in this situation, but you will find a great deal of support and useful information here. There are no gate crashers on this thread. Just a lot of wounded souls in various stages of coping with infidelity. Each and every one making their own contribution and, hopefully, finding something to take away for themselves. 

Please feel free to share your story with us.


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## EI

Has anyone seen Rags posting anywhere on TAM? I think he's MIA. Rags, phone home!!!


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## EI

Lister said:


> Hi Rookie, as a WS I have thought a lot about how i would feel if Stargazer chose to be with someone else (one night stand or permanently). The answer is it would devastate me, I don't think i could handle it. i've imagined lying awake picturing her with someone else, loving someone else and it's heartbreaking. In short i'm not sure I would have the strength to do what she is doing for me, trying to forgive me.
> 
> i think it's important to try and visualise these things as a way to try and get some tiny inkling of the pain i have put her through.


That's probably an "exercise" that every WS should force their self to imagine, visualize and really think about at some point. Of course, knowing that it was imaginary would make it nowhere near the gut-wrenching devastation that our BS's experience over and over. But, I'll be honest..... I cannot allow my brain to even begin to think like that. Not even for a moment..... It hurts too much. 

B1 and I have both come so far in 10 1/2 months, but I know that there are some scars that will never completely heal. I love him so much. I am in complete awe of the love, strength and commitment that he brings to our marriage every day.


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## B1

Welcome VT, sorry you are here but glad you found us. Hopefully you can find some help here, if anything you will find support. WE know your pain, we are in your shoes, we have been where you are. 

Like EI said there are no gate crashers here, that gate is always open, wide open for anyone who wants to share their storie, post some wisdom, vent their pain, or reach out to another in pain.

Stick around VT we are glad to have you!


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## hopefulgirl

Two months since D-Day, I'm definitely low on energy. Can't accomplish as much each day as I would normally; the house doesn't look as it should, and my exercising (which I know would help me to feel better but it takes motivation to DO it) is far from a daily thing.

I'm sure sleep deprivation figures into all of this, as 2 or 3 nights each week I'm awake in the middle of the night. Up until the last week or so, I'd be awake for so long I'd actually get up (they say past 20 minutes, there's just no point in staying in bed). Things have calmed down - knock wood - in this last week so I've slept better, but I can still say that my energy level isn't what it was prior to D-Day.

I think the shock to our system, to our equilibrium, plus having to learn a whole new way of looking at the world and the way we live our lives is pretty tiring. I had absolute trust in my husband - that's gone forever. As he works to regain my trust, it will be "trust but verify." I find that sad. I used to feel very confident in some things that I knew I could count on - his fidelity was one of them. There are some things in this world that I can't count on anymore, and some things I believed in that I don't anymore - including the idea that the truth was something that HE valued highly. Adjusting to all of this involves grieving what we've lost, and that's tiring too.


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## B1

EI just sent me the best text ever..I just want to say to all Fws that getting little texts, validating our pain, our hurt, telling us you love us really does help. Just knowing you understand, or are trying to understand our pain helps. Part of what EI said was she knows this was a life changing horrific event and that I NEVER deserved this, I am a good man,son,husband and father...that she has shown her worst and I am giving my best...

These meant a lot to me!

She gets a lot of this from posts here, seeing other BS's post about their pain and their struggles, it validats mine to her. She's sees that it's real, not that she doubts it, but when you see so many of us BS's struggeling with the same things then it just helps drive it home. 

So Fws's don't hold back a text an email, a letter, thinking that it won't make a difference...WE LIKE THEM! This A, on top of many other things, made us vulnerable, insecure and we, at least I do, like to hear that you love us, you care, you understand.


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## Mrs_Mathias

daisygirl 41 said:


> Mrs M - you have every right to feel the way you do. Two wrongs don't make a right. In my opinion Matts ex was overstepping the mark and this new friendship sounds like its moving into the realms of an EA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just want to be clear that Matt has done NOTHING inappropriate with either of these women. I don't believe he has ANY interest in his ex-wife, and I do believe that he is just friends with the former student. It is completely my own insecurities coloring those interactions. I DO think his ex has some sort of weird agenda going on - she's been exceptionally manipulative our entire life, but I don't think the other woman does. She and Matt honestly have a lot in common, and are very similar personality wise, so they are comfortable spending time together.

This is just another facet of the world I created, and one that I am having a hard time balancing my reactions to.


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## TCSRedhead

B1 said:


> EI just sent me the best text ever..I just want to say to all Fws that getting little texts, validating our pain, our hurt, telling us you love us really does help. Just knowing you understand, or are trying to understand our pain helps. Part of what EI said was she knows this was a life changing horrific event and that I NEVER deserved this, I am a good man,son,husband and father...that she has shown her worst and I am giving my best...
> 
> These meant a lot to me!
> 
> She gets a lot of this from posts here, seeing other BS's post about their pain and their struggles, it validats mine to her. She's sees that it's real, not that she doubts it, but when you see so many of us BS's struggeling with the same things then it just helps drive it home.
> 
> So Fws's don't hold back a text an email, a letter, thinking that it won't make a difference...WE LIKE THEM! This A, on top of many other things, made us vulnerable, insecure and we, at least I do, like to hear that you love us, you care, you understand.


Thanks, this is a good reminder. I try to text him at least two times a day while I'm at the office even if its just a quick 'I love you'. He says it feels good to know that I'm thinking of him while we're apart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

You are a prolific bunch lately!

Calvin - awesome, awesome, awesome! I truly think you have hit the transition point. Where you finally make the turn from victim to survivor, I could hear it in your post. Be honest, it's empowering, isn't it? In the coming days and weeks you will continue to regain more and more control of your emotions, your mind and your life. And you guys both deserve it, so grab hold of it and hold on like h3ll. You got this! And FYI, no need to go crazy and promise not to subject CSS to any more "Dutch Ovens". Maybe she enjoys it . . . Yeah, probably not so much. 

Robsia, we get it. We feel how raw your pain is right now. We have been there, and it feels like your entire mind is one exposed nerve ending sometimes. Perhaps it would be easier to look at your thinking from a different perspective. Up to recently, it seems you have worked hard to support your husband and gave a LOT more than you were receiving. In addition, it seems he has some pretty major anger issues and is verbally and emotionally abusive. This dynamic had been going on for quite some time. Many would refer to this as being too much of a doormat - willing to give and give and accept poor treatment in return. But you are changing. You are finding your strength, pride and value. You are realizing you are worth more and demanding it. This is awesome! But it also shows that while you have been a doormat in the past, you are not always a doormat from this day forward. People can grow and change, if they are willing to put the work in. So keep putting the work in, and keep an open mind. Over time, I think you will be surprised how much your thinking may evolve on this topic.

B1 - I hear ya on the motivation front. The first year there were definitely areas I let slide as I just didn't have it in me. Sadly, I think work was one of them. I found myself content to coast, and I NEVER had been like that. Fortunately, I had told my department head what was going on early on as is suspected my focus would be off etc. She was very supportive and understanding through the first few months especially. Turns out her son (about my age) went through the same thing about 2 years earlier. I am happy to report that my drive has been getting better. The more stable things get at home, the less severe triggers I have etc all mean more energy and resources to deploy to work, home projects etc. just keep pushing yourself and keep creating more stability.

So my wife is in Germany this week for work. We implemented some of the ideas you all shared the other week, no alcohol, frequent texting and calling from her hotel room each night to check in and chat for a while. It's not easy, but I am managing pretty darn well. When she left yesterday, she left a card on my pillow with a lot of really powerful stuff. Poured her heart out about how much my love and patience have meant to her over the last 2 years, and how our marriage and our family are the two most important thngs in her life. And that she will NEVER risk destroying them again. 

I am home with a sick kid again today (5 year old daughter has the stomach flu so been working from home yesterday and today). Have to say I do enjoy working in flannel pants and a sweatshirt. 

Anyway, keep taking care of each other!


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## ody360

B1 said:


> For BS's out there...
> 
> How has the A affected other parts of your life. How is your drive, motivation, energy levels. Mine are not great and it's affecting our marriage, not The R, but our lives in general, and understandably so.
> We have so much going on and I'm just not as driven as I should be.
> 
> Now, When it comes to the R related issues I am driven and tackeling that one. When it comes to our marriage I am ok there also...when it comes to life I am hurting. Things like yard work, parenting, handeling issues around the house, leading etc. I just don't have the drive I need to get it done right.
> 
> Now, starting today I plan to change that, but it will be a conscious effort, it won't come easy. That's ok though EI and my family deserve to have the best me they can have.
> 
> So...to sum this up, how is your drive, motivation, and energy doing since Dday?


I honestly have been more motivated then ever doing stuff around the house and getting stuff done. I honestly dont think my house has ever been this clean. Im to the point im up to 4 miles on the elliptical machinge so i have not been more motivate to work out more then i ever have been now. But i do it to keep my mind from racing and getting off track of trying to R and not constantly wanting to beat my WW's head with this mallet of emotion that comes up... 

I will say what has fallen off is my motivation to do normal stuff i use to do. Like go and hang out with my friends and the lack of enthusiasm to do band practice cause at the moment the songs i want to right are going to be constant reminders of how much going through this sucks. It is good writing fuel i wont deny that, but not sure if i want that constant reminder in the feature. I did make it out to the driving range 3 times last week and i actually made it out golfing and did not have issues of thinking about my WW setting at home unsupervised so i feel that is a good step for myself and my recovery. So it probably wont be long that i will feel comfortable enough to go hang out with some friends and not have the doubt of what is she doing while im not home.


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## daisygirl 41

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I just want to be clear that Matt has done NOTHING inappropriate with either of these women. I don't believe he has ANY interest in his ex-wife, and I do believe that he is just friends with the former student. It is completely my own insecurities coloring those interactions. I DO think his ex has some sort of weird agenda going on - she's been exceptionally manipulative our entire life, but I don't think the other woman does. She and Matt honestly have a lot in common, and are very similar personality wise, so they are comfortable spending time together.
> 
> This is just another facet of the world I created, and one that I am having a hard time balancing my reactions to.


Sorry I must have misinterpreted your post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> So my wife is in Germany this week for work. We implemented some of the ideas you all shared the other week, no alcohol, frequent texting and calling from her hotel room each night to check in and chat for a while. It's not easy, but I am managing pretty darn well. When she left yesterday, she left a card on my pillow with a lot of really powerful stuff. Poured her heart out about how much my love and patience have meant to her over the last 2 years, and how our marriage and our family are the two most important thngs in her life. And that she will NEVER risk destroying them again.
> 
> I am home with a sick kid again today (5 year old daughter has the stomach flu so been working from home yesterday and today). Have to say I do enjoy working in flannel pants and a sweatshirt.
> 
> Anyway, keep taking care of each other!


NH2MR, I want to say that I always enjoy your posts. They are encouraging and uplifting, while being very real at the same time. 

I am so glad to hear that so far you are doing well with your wife's trip. I have a feeling this will be a big step forward for you both, where you both are able to make strides in trusting your wife's ability to keep good boundaries and make good choices. 

Sorry to hear your daughter is sick -hope you are able to avoid the bug! Enjoy the days at home though. DD is working from home today as well, and I just stopped by after picking our son up from pre-k. DD is still in the clothes he slept in. Must be nice! :smthumbup:


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## ChangingMe

To the new people posting, I am sorry you are here. The pain you are feeling comes through in your posts, and I hate it for you. After witnessing what I have put DD through, I really do hurt for the BSs on here. 

Please post. Vent, cry, say what you need to say. This is a safe place. We don't all always agree with each other, but we are a good place of support and respect. There is a good mixture of fWS and BSs, and I feel like we all try our best to help each other and to answer questions anyone may ask.


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## TCSRedhead

Kinda sad day today. Like Mrs M, I became pregnant during hysterical bonding. It was unexpected and really threw us for a loop. It took about 4-5 months for us to be able to feel joy and happiness about bringing this new life in to the world when we were still in such turmoil. It was during that period that I found TAM and really began to understand C&B's pain and stopped being such a cold, heartless b1tch. 
I know how lucky and fortunate I am to have a husband who could still have love in his heart for me after all that has happened. I do not take that for granted even for a moment and I make sure to do all that I can to show him that as often as possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> DG,
> 
> It's funny that you say that..... I have been "losing words" for months now. I ask B1 several times a day if a certain word sounds right in a sentence or if it is indeed even a word. It's as if my brain simply cannot make the connections. It almost terrifies me because "words" and "writing" we're always subjects that came naturally to me. Sometimes I re-read old posts of mine and I shake my head wondering what I was thinking when I wrote them. English and grammar were always two of my A++ subjects.
> 
> It never occurred to me that it could be "A" related. Unless "A" stands for age.... I think that's the "A" I was associating it with. Of course, I know that B1's original question was directed towards the effects of the "A" on the BS's.


You know, EI, if you would lay off the cooking sherry, you might have less trouble with the grammar. Does B1 know you're hitting the sauce?


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## calvin

I feel like crap,I do forgive CSS,really do.She has earned it.
I freaked for four hours today at work,kept thinking I wanted out of our marriage.
I'm trying to bid to a different mill or unit at work,where I work now is one hell of a trigger a lot of the time.
To many bad things happend there during here A.
I did feel better towords the end of my shift,came home and apologized to her.
I do feel better around her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Is it fear because he said he forgives me yesterday? Is it that it scared him because he's maybe not ready to forgive? Anyone have that happen the day afer they decide to forgive?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Is it fear because he said he forgives me yesterday? Is it that it scared him because he's maybe not ready to forgive? Anyone have that happen the day afer they decide to forgive?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No,not afraid to forgive.Not now.
I can't really answer this.
Something really bad was about to happen to me and I was turned away from the one person I was sure would do something to help me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Just curious if this is a common problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Just curious if this is a common problem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope not,still fighting myself.I'm wearing myself down.
Getting tired of me doing this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

CantSitStill said:


> Just curious if this is a common problem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would think it is. It's a big step and I'm sure many question it afterwards. I did wonder if I forgave to soon, then I got over it and went with it. I think Calvin is fine with it css. Forgiving doesn't mean the pain goes away immediately, it still hurts. He will still trigger and have bad times. 

I found this on forgiveness and thought it may help Calvin.

What is forgiveness?

Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you.

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Please send positive thoughts to Matt tonight. He is really struggling with all the pain. He says he is done with me, that I am bad for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

God, I just want a time machine. I want to be 6 years old and just yell "Do over!" I hate what I did. I hate the destruction my stupidity has caused. I hate that the man I love can't bear to hear me say that to him because it seems do meaningless to him. We were so good together for so many years. I really believed that we still could be. God I'm fvcking naive as hell. Robsia is right... Once a cheater always a cheater, at least to the person who matters most, the BS. I will never live this down even if I had a hundred years. I'm fvcking worthless. I had do many opportunities to NOT be a horrible, hurtful person and I didn't take them. What the fvck could I possibly think? That suddenly being the woman I should have been all along would somehow help Matt see what we could build together??? All it show him is what I chose NOT to do for the last year. Pathetic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy

You can't go back in time to change things. You don't have to be defined by your mistakes, either. You love him? Prove it. You're committed to making this work? Prove it. Giving in to self pity helps neither of you. Feel the remorse because it is necessary, but, then, show your colors. Either he accepts it or he doesn't; your love depends on your love, not his acceptance of it. If he chooses to reciprocate, then it will feel like a gift, but if you act only in a way that expects acceptance of your love and get upset when you dont get it, then your self-entitlement is getting in the way of real and generous love between you both.


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## daisygirl 41

Had a lovely day out yesterday.
Relaxed last night with a couple of episodes from the last series of House we are catching up with. It's all about Foreman having an affair with a married woman! Urgh! Spoilt my day. Just went to bed and turned the light out. He's trying to be super nice now and it's getting on my nerves!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Not coping well. These last two days have been hard. I’ve deliberately tried to back off, not texting him, letting him have some time with his boys, who are down to visit for a couple of days – but he has not made any contact either. I miss him, and I hate myself for feeling this way. I’m trying to let him take the lead, but all I’m doing is making myself miserable. I’ve never been a game-player. If I wanted to text him, I’ve texted him. At the start of our relationship, there was nothing like that – that’s why it was such a relief to meet someone who didn’t play games, who didn’t make me wait for him to call etc.

I don’t know if he’s not texting me out of manipulation, because he thinks that’s what I’m doing to him, or because he’s busy with the boys, or simply because he doesn’t want to. If it’s the latter or the former, then we have no hope.

We already arranged to FT tonight. I think he has a job to go to today once the boys have left, so we will see what he is like tonight. I will try to be nice and not show that I’ve been freaking out.

I was very snappy this morning with DD1. She’s insisted on having a friend over to sleep the last TWO nights. I hate her having friends over, it stresses my Asperger’s out. But we had also arranged for DD1 to take DD2 to the park this morning. The plan was, I would drop them off when I went for my run, then come home by myself (which is now) and then I’ll go back later when she texts me to pick them up. DD1 went and invited the friend without asking me. It’s weird, I wouldn’t have minded if she’d just asked me, but when the friend started talking about it, I was so annoyed with DD1 for presuming. She must think I’m such a mardy cow, and I was this morning, but I don’t do well with unexpected things. I didn’t mind the friend coming, I minded not being asked. The worst thing was that they took so bloody long to get ready this morning so I ended up waiting for them, which stressed me out more. Then DD1 managed to spill birdseed all over the kitchen floor and made a half-assed job of cleaning it up, which annoyed me even more, and made us later.

Grrr – I’m not having a good day and it’s not even 11.

Why do I still care so bloody much? He’s been a total bastard, why can’t I just hate him and move on?

On the plus side my weight finally got below 160 – only 159.8, but it’s a new decade! Yay me. It’s only taken me two weeks. But it was two weeks which included Easter and a week of cosy meals in with WH which included too much wine and ice cream and chocolate, so I reckon I’ve done okay.


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## daisygirl 41

Bless him - breakfast in bed, mowing the lawn, hung the washing out!
His way of saying sorry!
He just can't bring himself to talk about it though.
Ho hum! : - )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

good morning, everyone.

*welcome, new posters* -- i'm about a year past dday.

hi EI! and yes, B1, it is so hard to get your motivation, etc. back after A. yes, DG, as you said, my brain was mish mash. i used to be such an on-point multitasker. once A happened, that all went out the window. for the first few months, i was barely in reality, but even for many months afterward, i could not think clearly. i began forgetting about work commitments and appointments COMPLETELY, like i had never even made them. i sort of withdrew from everything, even fun things... or when i did them, it was like going through the motions. 

my tendency is, i always think that today is the day, or next week is the week, that it's all going to get better. well, it wasn't, not for a long long time  but this spring, i REALLY think i'm about to start feeling like myself again.

robsia, as everyone says, it's SO early for you. just hang on and keep putting one foot in front of the other! all of our situations are different, and some of the WSs around here seem to have been plunged into remorse fairly quickly, while some took a bit longer -- and only PART of that process is due to actions and/or strategies that you, the BS, have control over. so hang on, keep doing what you are doing for as long as it feels right, and see if your WH begins to show you that he gets it, that he is stepping up....

calvin and CSS, your posts struck a chord with me -- sometimes my most forgiving moments are followed by a surge of panic about the whole thing. it's almost like, when i experience myself as not being vigilant anymore, as letting my guard down, then i feel in danger again. 

and when i feel that possibility of danger -- that this could somehow happen again -- that is the WORST for me. so all the alarm bells go off  

there was an epic post a little while ago by NeverHappen that really helped me with some related aspects of this -- it was about how, to protect ourselves, we periodically want to burn it all down and run.

hi, CM! and DD, i totally get your fire-setting photo (speaking of burning it all down) 

mrs. m, i'm with the others who say NO to once a (fill in the blank), always a (blank). people who are honest with themselves and committed to change and who work hard _can_ grow and change. that doesn't mean that painful memories and twinges of hurt won't always be with BSs -- i think that they will, and remorseful fWSs will always need to be accountable for helping their BSs with those twinges. that's a related but separate issue. it doesn't mean that you are always and forever defined by ANYTHING that you honestly reject by both your thoughts and your actions.

xxx mg


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## calvin

DevastatedDad said:


> C'mon.. I think this is just his pattern.
> 
> We all cycle but Calvin, you are going to have a heart attack you are cycling at light speed. "forgive" then "wanting out" 8 hours later...
> 
> I am a hypocrite giving this advice but slow down and take some deep breaths man.
> 
> Not trying to offend, just worried about the toll this is taking.
> 
> Again, not trying to be a d!ck but I can't be the only one thinking this and I am not stupid enough to think people aren't having the same thoughts about me (I clearly cycle up and down but I am getting better (sloooowly))
> 
> and I am totally being a hypocrite here "Monday morning quarterbacking someone else's situation" but I am truly worried about you man.
> 
> Can you get out for a night and just grab some beers with the guys or go fishing or do something to escape for even just 1 day?
> 
> 
> I am trying to think of what I could do in your situation. If I had to work insane hours... Only thing I could think of is make work some sort of creative outlet. Go get a cheapy digital camera and try and take creative photos of machinery at your job or climb up on top of something high and take pictures of the world below. I am lucky enough that I get to fly and I get to leave my problems down below and look at them from up high and thy are so small from up there.
> 
> We are different people and that is what comes to my mind for me.
> What can you do (at work if need be) to shrink your issues in a creative way.
> 
> I found CM's timeline the other day by accident, and I set fire to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is my favorite photo I have ever taken. The picture sucks but it felt good to take it.
> 
> Start a blog and write about your work. I don't even know what it is you do. Some sort of work on heavy machinery. Maybe not the answer for you but for me creativity is my best outlet.
> 
> Sorry again if I am being an ass. Not my intent. Just want to help people.


Morning,I'm good today.Why does this get to me so much? I don't know,it just does.
I still can't believe it,nuts isn't it? The stattion on my mill is a bad trigger but its the place I get the most overtime.
When I get home I'm fine.
Hopefully me and CSS can leave town next Thursday.
Its hard to push away how CSS treated me when I knew there was someone else,it was pretty bad.
I know she is sorry as hell for trying to boot me out of the house,all this crap seems like it happend last week.
I'm trying,that's all I can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> God, I just want a time machine. I want to be 6 years old and just yell "Do over!" I hate what I did. I hate the destruction my stupidity has caused. I hate that the man I love can't bear to hear me say that to him because it seems do meaningless to him. We were so good together for so many years. I really believed that we still could be. God I'm fvcking naive as hell. Robsia is right... Once a cheater always a cheater, at least to the person who matters most, the BS. I will never live this down even if I had a hundred years. I'm fvcking worthless. I had do many opportunities to NOT be a horrible, hurtful person and I didn't take them. What the fvck could I possibly think? That suddenly being the woman I should have been all along would somehow help Matt see what we could build together??? All it show him is what I chose NOT to do for the last year. Pathetic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For starters you could stop with the pity party.


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## Mrs_Mathias

moxy said:


> You can't go back in time to change things. You don't have to be defined by your mistakes, either. You love him? Prove it. You're committed to making this work? Prove it. Giving in to self pity helps neither of you. Feel the remorse because it is necessary, but, then, show your colors. Either he accepts it or he doesn't; your love depends on your love, not his acceptance of it. If he chooses to reciprocate, then it will feel like a gift, but if you act only in a way that expects acceptance of your love and get upset when you dont get it, then your self-entitlement is getting in the way of real and generous love between you both.


I'm not pitying myself. I HATE myself, but I think that's a very different thing than feeling sorry for oneself. No one made this happen to me or made me be this awful person. I did. I also don't think that I am behaving in a self-entitled way. I completely understand why Matt doesn't want my love. I don't think I have ever behaved in a way that EXPECTS him to. All I can do is offer it. But every day, I get up and try to face the day with HOPE and if you are going to truly hope for something, and work for something, then that means opening yourself up to disappointment. I don't think that's entitled. Maybe I'm wrong. God knows, I often am.

My love doesn't change because Matt doesn't want it. My resolve to keep working until I die or the final ink is dry on our divorce papers and he cuts all contact with me does not waver.


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## TCSRedhead

Amazing night last night. Talked to C&B last night - doing a check up of where things are with us. Since I'm traveling today until Friday, I want to see what is happening with him. I nearly lost it crying when he told me that he never stopped believing that he was important to me even when I stopped acting like he was. He had given it a time limit in his mind because for him, once he walked out it would be really over. 
I am in awe of his love and capacity to forgive. Knowing his childhood and background just make that even more precious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not pitying myself. I HATE myself, but I think that's a very different thing than feeling sorry for oneself. No one made this happen to me or made me be this awful person. I did. I also don't think that I am behaving in a self-entitled way. I completely understand why Matt doesn't want my love. I don't think I have ever behaved in a way that EXPECTS him to. All I can do is offer it. But every day, I get up and try to face the day with HOPE and if you are going to truly hope for something, and work for something, then that means opening yourself up to disappointment. I don't think that's entitled. Maybe I'm wrong. God knows, I often am.
> 
> My love doesn't change because Matt doesn't want it. My resolve to keep working until I die or the final ink is dry on our divorce papers and he cuts all contact with me does not waver.


I'm sorry Mrs M - the dark times are hard to weather. I don't think it's over or hopeless for the two of you. I do think there I a feeling of powerlessness over his situation that leads him to want take control of what he can at the moment. 

Keep being patient. Keep loving. I really think better times are ahead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

BjornFree said:


> For starters you could stop with the pity party.


Mrs. M's feelings are feelings all of the remorseful spouses have. It helps to vent it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree

CantSitStill said:


> Mrs. M's feelings are feelings all of the remorseful spouses have. It helps to vent it out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. M
I understand that but have you considered how Matt feels when he reads what you post. Every time you say "I love him and I hate what I did" etc.. he's just going to have one question popping out "The why did she do it?". Right now all he has as a guarantee of your love are words which are meaningless and sound hollow. You have to realize that its going to take time and effort and that means keeping your head down and working at it. A breach of trust will take a long long time to repair if ever and you need to acknowledge that.

It could be different when only the WS is posting. It might give them a chance to vent in private because their BS is not going to read their posts. But if I were your BS I'd wonder every single time if you are using this platform to manipulate me. While this may not be the case with you, that's what Matt is going to feel like you're doing because his brain is conditioned to think that way since the false R.


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## Mrs_Mathias

BjornFree said:


> Mrs. M
> I understand that but have you considered how Matt feels when he reads what you post. Every time you say "I love him and I hate what I did" etc.. he's just going to have one question popping out "The why did she do it?". Right now all he has as a guarantee of your love are words which are meaningless and sound hollow. You have to realize that its going to take time and effort and that means keeping your head down and working at it. A breach of trust will take a long long time to repair if ever and you need to acknowledge that.
> 
> It could be different when only the WS is posting. It might give them a chance to vent in private because their BS is not going to read their posts. But if I were your BS I'd wonder every single time if you are using this platform to manipulate me. While this may not be the case with you, that's what Matt is going to feel like you're doing because his brain is conditioned to think that way since the false R.


I know that he asks why I did it. We talk about it often. I don't normally make emotional posts on this forum, I try to stick more to updates and the like, but sometimes I just need a place to talk too. I'm sorry if that is perceived by anyone as manipulative. I guess I need to continue to work on my filter and not being impulsive. But I literally live in a tiny town with not one single friend to talk to in person. There is no one here for me to discuss this with. The few that I could/would talk to have to do it by telephone. And I'm not going to call someone and cry about the circumstances I created at 1 am. They have their own lives going on. So I spilled it out here to just get it out of my body so I could try to calm down enough to rest without those thoughts racing around my head.

I'm sure it is hard for Matt to read, but it's nothing that I haven't said directly to him and will continue to say. Yes - they are empty words to him now. But I mean them. And my current actions, I think, back that up. So I have to keep saying them. If I don't, then in my head it must mean that I don't mean them and I've just given up.

Words are completely inadequate - I'm sorry, I love you... they can't possible accurately reflect the emotion, thought, and person behind them. But I have nothing else to communicate with, so I keep saying them.


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## ChangingMe

BjornFree said:


> Mrs. M
> I understand that but have you considered how Matt feels when he reads what you post. Every time you say "I love him and I hate what I did" etc.. he's just going to have one question popping out "The why did she do it?". Right now all he has as a guarantee of your love are words which are meaningless and sound hollow. *You have to realize that its going to take time and effort and that means keeping your head down and working at it. A breach of trust will take a long long time to repair if ever and you need to acknowledge that.*
> 
> It could be different when only the WS is posting. It might give them a chance to vent in private because their BS is not going to read their posts. But if I were your BS I'd wonder every single time if you are using this platform to manipulate me. While this may not be the case with you, that's what Matt is going to feel like you're doing because his brain is conditioned to think that way since the false R.


BF, I could be mistaken, but I am pretty sure that MrsM posted on this thread prior to Matt posting. And I am pretty sure that Matt is asking himself why she did it no matter what she does or doesn't post. I can relate to MrsM. I have felt those same emotions on a more than regular basis. I too want to know how I could do what I did. It doesn't make sense, and it makes even less sense as time goes on.

I do agree with your bolded part, but I also think that MrsM has acknowledged that it is going to take time. I have never read anything in her posts where she has even hinted at feeling like her husband should drop it or get over it. She is hurting too though. They had a really rough night, and she is feeling very strong hate at herself right now. I've been there, very recently. There is always a level of disgust and self-loathing towards myself, but after an episode where DD is very angry and hurt, it is an even stronger feeling for me. Such as on Friday night when I posted. Just as it helps the BSs to post when emotions are strong, it can help the WSs as well to do the same. Sometimes we have nowhere else to go, and so we seek help on here. I have to feel like we are allowed to do this; we should not hesitate to post as if this is a place for BSs only, especially this thread. 

Now that DD posts on this thread, I do question posting sometimes. But once again, I have to be able to post for me. I really hope DD doesn't feel I'm trying to manipulate; it certainly is never my intent. I get where my husband and MrsM's both question what we are doing; that goes along with them being BSs. But I disagree that MrsM shouldn't be allowed to post her feelings just because Matt may read them. She is seeking help, just like the rest of us.


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## MrQuatto

moxy said:


> You can't go back in time to change things. You don't have to be defined by your mistakes, either. You love him? Prove it. You're committed to making this work? Prove it. Giving in to self pity helps neither of you. Feel the remorse because it is necessary, but, then, show your colors. Either he accepts it or he doesn't; your love depends on your love, not his acceptance of it. If he chooses to reciprocate, then it will feel like a gift, but if you act only in a way that expects acceptance of your love and get upset when you dont get it, then your self-entitlement is getting in the way of real and generous love between you both.


Like like like. It's not an easy journey but if both come through it, you will never be stronger or closer.

Q~


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## Mrs_Mathias

DevastatedDad said:


> Moving forward I am reading all of the posts on this thread in Sean Connery's voice.
> 
> It makes all the posts seem more insightful.


DD, I have to say, that I enjoy having you post here. We need your sense of humor.


----------



## BjornFree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I know that he asks why I did it. We talk about it often. I don't normally make emotional posts on this forum, I try to stick more to updates and the like, but sometimes I just need a place to talk too. I'm sorry if that is perceived by anyone as manipulative. I guess I need to continue to work on my filter and not being impulsive. But I literally live in a tiny town with not one single friend to talk to in person. There is no one here for me to discuss this with. The few that I could/would talk to have to do it by telephone. And I'm not going to call someone and cry about the circumstances I created at 1 am. They have their own lives going on. So I spilled it out here to just get it out of my body so I could try to calm down enough to rest without those thoughts racing around my head.
> 
> I'm sure it is hard for Matt to read, but it's nothing that I haven't said directly to him and will continue to say. Yes - they are empty words to him now. But I mean them. And my current actions, I think, back that up. So I have to keep saying them. If I don't, then in my head it must mean that I don't mean them and I've just given up.
> 
> Words are completely inadequate - I'm sorry, I love you... they can't possible accurately reflect the emotion, thought, and person behind them. But I have nothing else to communicate with, so I keep saying them.


You need to have friends. Friends in whom you can confide your fears and pain without your spouse listening in on every little thing and interpreting it in his own way. This is where counselors help I guess. Have you considered talking to a pastor?

Maybe you guys should take a little mini vacation. Forget about the infidelity and the hustle and bustle of everyday life. It might do you some good given that you're in the family way.


----------



## MrQuatto

BjornFree said:


> Mrs. M
> I understand that but have you considered how Matt feels when he reads what you post. Every time you say "I love him and I hate what I did" etc.. he's just going to have one question popping out "The why did she do it?". Right now all he has as a guarantee of your love are words which are meaningless and sound hollow. You have to realize that its going to take time and effort and that means keeping your head down and working at it. A breach of trust will take a long long time to repair if ever and you need to acknowledge that.
> 
> It could be different when only the WS is posting. It might give them a chance to vent in private because their BS is not going to read their posts. But if I were your BS I'd wonder every single time if you are using this platform to manipulate me. While this may not be the case with you, that's what Matt is going to feel like you're doing because his brain is conditioned to think that way since the false R.


But if mrs m can't work out her own issues she will never be able to work out the relationship with Matt, regardless of the ultimate outcome. Sometimes you have to let go of the pent up frustration before you can look at it for what it is and work through it.

Yes, it's not easy and there is a lot of work to do but she, like my wife, is trying to work through a problem that has no manual, no directions and no assured outcome. And yes, Matt has every single right to be pi$$ed, hurt, angry, frustrated, mistrusting, suspicious and even vengeful but THEY ARE TRYING. That is more than most can say. 

I think we need a bit of caution telling way wards not to show emotions of frustration or pain. They did an exceptional job of doing that during the affair and for me, I preferred the emotion during the R to the cold indifference I saw during the affair. At least I saw something changing and it ended up for the better.

Q~


----------



## BjornFree

MrQuatto said:


> But if mrs m can't work out her own issues she will never be able to work out the relationship with Matt, regardless of the ultimate outcome. Sometimes you have to let go of the pent up frustration before you can look at it for what it is and work through it.
> 
> Yes, it's not easy and there is a lot of work to do but she, like my wife, is trying to work through a problem that has no manual, no directions and no assured outcome. And yes, Matt has every single right to be pi$$ed, hurt, angry, frustrated, mistrusting, suspicious and even vengeful but THEY ARE TRYING. That is more than most can say.
> 
> I think we need a bit of caution telling way wards not to show emotions of frustration or pain. They did an exceptional job of doing that during the affair and for me, I preferred the emotion during the R to the cold indifference I saw during the affair. At least I saw something changing and it ended up for the better.
> 
> Q~


This is where I think exclusive threads or even forums might help. What the WS considers a vent could easily be misunderstood as whining and complaining by a BS.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

BjornFree said:


> You need to have friends. Friends in whom you can confide your fears and pain without your spouse listening in on every little thing and interpreting it in his own way. This is where counselors help I guess. Have you considered talking to a pastor?
> 
> Maybe you guys should take a little mini vacation. Forget about the infidelity and the hustle and bustle of everyday life. It might do you some good given that you're in the family way.


I have a therapist that I see every 10 days or so. That's not the same as a friend. Nor would a pastor, although I don't attend a church. I have a hard time reaching out to anyone at any time regarding the mess I made, but especially "after hours" which is when most things seem to fall apart. I'll get through it. We all do.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



BjornFree said:


> Mrs. M
> I understand that but have you considered how Matt feels when he reads what you post. Every time you say "I love him and I hate what I did" etc.. he's just going to have one question popping out "The why did she do it?". Right now all he has as a guarantee of your love are words which are meaningless and sound hollow. You have to realize that its going to take time and effort and that means keeping your head down and working at it. A breach of trust will take a long long time to repair if ever and you need to acknowledge that.
> 
> It could be different when only the WS is posting. It might give them a chance to vent in private because their BS is not going to read their posts. But if I were your BS I'd wonder every single time if you are using this platform to manipulate me. While this may not be the case with you, that's what Matt is going to feel like you're doing because his brain is conditioned to think that way since the false R.


I have to respectfully disagree. When Mrs M first started posting I told her she was being too measured and dispassionate. Likewise when CM first started posting I told her she was approaching things too much like a counselor and not enough as a remorseful spouse. I think that the BS needs to see the emotional turmoil that the WS goes through. I think they need to see the inner workings of the WS's mind for better or worse. It's a form of communication and truth that fosters a better understanding between the couple. Matt can believe he is being manipulated all he wants but ultimately it's Mrs M's actions that will prove whether she is genuine or not. Frankly when I see a fWS venting their innermost feelings here I grow more hopeful that a true and lasting R is likely because they are opening up and allowing full transparency, even with their most private thoughts. As a BS that is something that I would not only welcome but demand.


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## Lister

DevastatedDad said:


> Moving forward I am reading all of the posts on this thread in Sean Connery's voice.
> 
> It makes all the posts seem more insightful.


Excellent notion DD, I will steal your idea but use Stephen Hawkins's voice instead.:smthumbup:


----------



## Rookie4

DevastatedDad said:


> Moving forward I am reading all of the posts on this thread in Sean Connery's voice.
> 
> It makes all the posts seem more insightful.


LMAO!! This is too funny! I do the same thing, except I use James Earl Jones. He sounds like my Dad, who also had a very deep voice. Whenever I hear something from Star Wars, it cracks me up.


----------



## SomedayDig

DevastatedDad said:


> Moving forward I am reading all of the posts on this thread in Sean Connery's voice.
> 
> It makes all the posts seem more insightful.


Actually, my words sound f'ng fantastic as Sean Connery. Even the one Darrel Hammond did on SNL when Wil Ferrel played Alex Trebek. I'm amazed at how pure awesomeness oozes from my phrasing.


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## Robsia

Personally I think Patrick Stewart kicks Sean Connery's admittedly cute if somewhat elderly bottom when it comes to awesomeness of voice.

"Look at me, I've got girl boobs!" And a cookie to the first person who correctly identifies that quote, WITHOUT googling it . *glowers round the forum quellingly*


----------



## Rookie4

MM, I know it's hard, but I think you need to change your mindset. I'm surprised that your counselor hasn't suggested it before now. You are STILL living together, Right? Matt is STILL with you, so you should always view every minute of every day as a time of unlimited opportunity. You MUST prove every word you say, so do it and be glad for it. You need to realize and give a HUGE amount of credit to Matt. He has suffered the pain of the damned, yet he is still willing to give you this precious gift of time to prove your words. Do it and be glad for it.
It's alright to vent, but don't let the venting process define your actions or attitude. Approach every action , predicated on the thought, "is it honest, is it good for Matt? or is it liable to be mis-interpreted or counter-productive". And when you do vent, make sure that you let Matt know that is what you are doing so he will have no reason to think otherwise.
Sweetie did this and will continue to do it. It has become second nature to her and she can't imagine NOT doing it. Do you know that she will not even have a surprise party for me, because she doesn't want to tell me even a little white lie? She tells me EVERYTHING, even when I don't want or need to know it. WE talk more each day than we used to do in a weeks' time. She actively searches for new ways to help me and prove her trustworthiness. 
If she can do it, you can too. 
Don't give in to your demons, rise above them. 3 years ago, Sweetie was a cheater and a liar. Now, she is (and I'm incredibly proud to say so) totally MY WOMAN, and the best, most honest, most loving human being I know. Do what you must do, and be glad for the opportunity to do it.


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## EI

BjornFree said:


> This is where I think exclusive threads or even forums might help. What the WS considers a vent could easily be misunderstood as whining and complaining by a BS.



BjornFree, I sincerely appreciate that you're taking the time to post on the "R" thread, because I know that you have "strong" opinions regarding reconciling after infidelity. So, the fact that you're contributing here is actually very encouraging, but I have to say, and I just finished sending an Epic EI pm to someone expressing these exact thoughts, WS's have to be able to have a safe place to vent, share, and get support for themselves, too. 

This is a thread where WS's, as well as BS's, are able to find support, while freely sharing their thoughts, feelings, struggles and fears. There is a lot of support on TAM for BS's which is completely understandable. But, if there is ANY hope for a successful reconciliation, then the whole relationship (which includes both spouses) has to have an opportunity to heal. This forum is called "Coping with Infidelity," not "Support for BS's only." 

To be honest, many of the BS's who post here do so, in part, because they find there is some value in being able to have an honest dialogue with WS's. As a former WS, one of the things that I have benefitted the most from this thread, and others, is truly coming to understand the depth of my husband's pain as a result of my betrayal. In the early weeks and months after D-Day, I had so much resentment and bitterness built up towards B1 for unresolved issues in our marriage prior to my "A," that I really couldn't appreciate the tremendous amount of pain, shock and disbelief that he was experiencing, because I hadn't felt emotionally connected to him for several years. Since I didn't think he loved me, (or even liked me) I couldn't imagine that he'd care much one way or the other. True story....... Through the eyes of the other BS's who told similar stories of their heartbreak and disbelief, I began to grasp that his suffering was real and intense. It was then that my true remorse, guilt and regret began to set in and then my compassion started to overflow. THEN, true healing and reconciliation began in our marriage.

I believe that by the same token, that there are BS's who may have learned a great deal about their own WS's through the words and actions of other WS's. This thread has been a win-win for both BS's and WS's..... If there can be such a thing in the aftermath of infidelity.

But, if WS's can speak freely only to their therapists, we would all go broke quickly because once a week or every couple of weeks isn't enough. If reconciliation is truly the goal then the BS benefits from the WS becoming a healthier individual.... mind, body and soul. WS's have to heal, too. We need help, too. I would think that Dr. Mathias might benefit from knowing what Mrs.M is thinking. But, if he feels that she is trying to manipulate him with her posts, then he is an intelligent man and is free to avoid reading them.

That's my two cents worth for the day. I do think that you had some good points in your comments about WS's accepting that it will take time and continued positive efforts on our parts to heal the marriages that our infidelity destroyed. I thank you for contributing.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> MM, I know it's hard, but I think you need to change your mindset. I'm surprised that your counselor hasn't suggested it before now. You are STILL living together, Right? Matt is STILL with you, so you should always view every minute of every day as a time of unlimited opportunity. You MUST prove every word you say, so do it and be glad for it. You need to realize and give a HUGE amount of credit to Matt. He has suffered the pain of the damned, yet he is still willing to give you this precious gift of time to prove your words. Do it and be glad for it.
> It's alright to vent, but don't let the venting process define your actions or attitude. Approach every action , predicated on the thought, "is it honest, is it good for Matt? or is it liable to be mis-interpreted or counter-productive". And when you do vent, make sure that you let Matt know that is what you are doing so he will have no reason to think otherwise.
> Sweetie did this and will continue to do it. It has become second nature to her and she can't imagine NOT doing it. Do you know that she will not even have a surprise party for me, because she doesn't want to tell me even a little white lie? She tells me EVERYTHING, even when I don't want or need to know it. WE talk more each day than we used to do in a weeks' time. She actively searches for new ways to help me and prove her trustworthiness.
> If she can do it, you can too.
> Don't give in to your demons, rise above them. 3 years ago, Sweetie was a cheater and a liar. Now, she is (and I'm incredibly proud to say so) totally MY WOMAN, and the best, most honest, most loving human being I know. Do what you must do, and be glad for the opportunity to do it.



Honestly, I have no idea if my counselor is any good. She doesn't suggest much, just listens to me for an hour or so and then I make my next appointment. She doesn't really offer guidance or assignments or anything.

I think in most cases I do pretty well at being exceptionally grateful and mindful of the fact that Matt is still around. I think last night was extra difficult because I couldn't put my finger on anything specific that triggered it. So then it's incredibly frustrating for me to feel like I don't know how to help or what to do to help prevent it from recurring. I'm trying to focus on ACTIONS that will back up what I say to Matt, but I feel so stupid sometimes for not being able to come up with something that will help or clearly communicate my feelings to him.

I spend every moment that I have focusing on Matt, thinking about how to help him through his pain, create a loving environment for him, and be a good partner to him. Everything in my life is open to Matt. As I said before, I have no friends here, so it's not like I'm confiding anything to ANYONE but him. I am fully transparent, I pursue options to document my days and activities, and Matt and I also talk more now than we have in a long time.

What I don't know how to help with is the cycling. He says over and over that he's tired of having these conversations with me, that he hates talking about the affair and rehashing the terrible things I've done. They feel unproductive to him and upset us both. We're just wrung out and exhausted after a night like last night. But I always feel like it's better for him to verbalize the thoughts and pain, even if he's already said it, even if I've given him every honest answer that I have, and to go through it again so that it doesn't just fester on the inside. But how do those conversations transform from a broken record into something healing and promoting growth? I show him love and care, I tell him I love him, I tell him I'm sorry. But those words sound empty to me, too, on nights like last night. I can envision a future where we are happy, engaged, and deeply connected again, but I can't get him to share the picture with me, nor can I give him a clear outline of how we'll get there other than what we're currently doing - working through each day, talking more, being considerate, sharing experiences.


----------



## Robsia

I wish I could persuade my WH to come on here  When I tell him stuff I've read on here he dismisses it as "stuff you've read on the internet". He wants to know why I need other people to tell me what to think. He has even described people on forums as not real people. Um - hello!

It's not all bad. Sometimes I feel he is all gung-ho and ready to do anything, but sometimes I feel he is just withdrawing and wishing it would all go away.


----------



## happyman64

Robsia said:


> I wish I could persuade my WH to come on here  When I tell him stuff I've read on here he dismisses it as "stuff you've read on the internet". He wants to know why I need other people to tell me what to think. He has even described people on forums as not real people. Um - hello!
> 
> It's not all bad. Sometimes I feel he is all gung-ho and ready to do anything, but sometimes I feel he is just withdrawing and wishing it would all go away.


Robsia

You cannot make your husband do anything he des not want to do but you can get him to think. 

When he says some think like " Why do you go on the Internet and let other people tell you how to think" stop what you are doing, get him to stop what he is doing, face him, look him in the eyes and say something like this

"When did you stop honoring our vows and feel that you had the right to start an emotional and sexual relationship with the OW while lying to the both of us so you could justify your horrible actions to yourself."

Then walk away. No conversation. No argument. Say it to him in a cool, non confrontational way.

You want him to think. Not get defensive.

Think.

Try it a few times and see if he starts to truly comprehend what he has done.


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> I found CM's timeline the other day by accident, and I set fire to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is my favorite photo I have ever taken. The picture sucks but it felt good to take it.


I really, really like this photo too.


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> Moving forward I am reading all of the posts on this thread in Sean Connery's voice.
> 
> It makes all the posts seem more insightful.


My husband is pretty damn funny. Though I do like all the voice suggestions. I think I will try alternating. Or maybe I will assign a voice to each poster. 

DD will be Sean of course (or maybe MrsM, haven't decided)
Rookie can be James Earl Jones 
Robsia will be Patrick Stewart
Lister can be Stephen Hawking -though I will have to YouTube him. DD and I were actually just talking about him last night when we went out, but I can't say I've heard him speak in ages. 
Dig -can I just make you Trebek? We already have a lot of Seans. 

I will let you know when I come up with other voices for the rest of you. Or feel free to suggest your own.


----------



## ChangingMe

Robsia said:


> I wish I could persuade my WH to come on here  When I tell him stuff I've read on here he dismisses it as "stuff you've read on the internet". He wants to know why I need other people to tell me what to think. He has even described people on forums as not real people. Um - hello!
> 
> It's not all bad. Sometimes I feel he is all gung-ho and ready to do anything, but sometimes I feel he is just withdrawing and wishing it would all go away.


Could you send him a link here? 

I got on TAM because my husband sent me an email back in October that said something along the lines of "I have consulted the court of public opinion and posted about our situation. You can choose to read it or not read it" with a link to his thread. Maybe it was my morbid curiosity, but it took me about 2 minutes to decide whether or not I wanted to read it. TAM has been difficult at times, but it has been a great resource for both DD and me. Like EI said, I too feel as if I have gotten a lot of insight into what BSs go through and the damage I have done. 

You can't make your husband join or read, but you can send him the link and put the ball in his court. 

I'm sorry, Robsia. I know you are hurting.


----------



## SomedayDig

ChangingMe said:


> My husband is pretty damn funny. Though I do like all the voice suggestions. I think I will try alternating. Or maybe I will assign a voice to each poster.
> 
> DD will be Sean of course (or maybe MrsM, haven't decided)
> Rookie can be James Earl Jones
> Robsia will be Patrick Stewart
> Lister can be Stephen Hawking -though I will have to YouTube him. DD and I were actually just talking about him last night when we went out, but I can't say I've heard him speak in ages.
> *Dig -can I just make you Trebek? We already have a lot of Seans.*
> 
> I will let you know when I come up with other voices for the rest of you. Or feel free to suggest your own.


Only if DD doesn't give me the line about words that start with R. (very very deep reference!)


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



ChangingMe said:


> My husband is pretty damn funny. Though I do like all the voice suggestions. I think I will try alternating. Or maybe I will assign a voice to each poster.
> 
> DD will be Sean of course (or maybe MrsM, haven't decided)
> Rookie can be James Earl Jones
> Robsia will be Patrick Stewart
> Lister can be Stephen Hawking -though I will have to YouTube him. DD and I were actually just talking about him last night when we went out, but I can't say I've heard him speak in ages.
> Dig -can I just make you Trebek? We already have a lot of Seans.
> 
> I will let you know when I come up with other voices for the rest of you. Or feel free to suggest your own.


Mrs bfree says I should be Liam Neeson. She says I also have a very particular set of skills. Not quite sure what she means by that but I'll take it.


----------



## Robsia

I have already told him about here and suggested he read some of my posts, as they would probably give him an insight into what I am really feeling, rather than the sugar-coated stuff I give him.

I have even opened some of my posts in front of him on my ipad and said "Read this one!" He has read the ones I've specifically asked him to, but as to whether he reads stuff when I'm not there, I don't know. He hasn't said. Probably not.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

ChangingMe said:


> My husband is pretty damn funny. Though I do like all the voice suggestions. I think I will try alternating. Or maybe I will assign a voice to each poster.
> 
> DD will be Sean of course (or maybe MrsM, haven't decided)
> Rookie can be James Earl Jones
> Robsia will be Patrick Stewart
> Lister can be Stephen Hawking -though I will have to YouTube him. DD and I were actually just talking about him last night when we went out, but I can't say I've heard him speak in ages.
> Dig -can I just make you Trebek? We already have a lot of Seans.
> 
> I will let you know when I come up with other voices for the rest of you. Or feel free to suggest your own.


I suggest the following:

B1 =Garrison Keillor from NPR 
EI = Julie Andrews


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I suggest the following:
> 
> B1 =Garrison Keillor from NPR
> EI = Julie Andrews


I could totally see EI as Julie Andrews or possibly even Julia Roberts. And B1 looks very scholarly in his pic so Garrison Keillor totally fits although B1 is much younger.


----------



## SomedayDig

Stephen Hawking Gets a Divorce


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> My husband is pretty damn funny. Though I do like all the voice suggestions. I think I will try alternating. Or maybe I will assign a voice to each poster.
> 
> DD will be Sean of course (or maybe MrsM, haven't decided)
> Rookie can be James Earl Jones
> Robsia will be Patrick Stewart
> Lister can be Stephen Hawking -though I will have to YouTube him. DD and I were actually just talking about him last night when we went out, but I can't say I've heard him speak in ages.
> Dig -can I just make you Trebek? We already have a lot of Seans.
> 
> I will let you know when I come up with other voices for the rest of you. Or feel free to suggest your own.


Well, you'd better make me somebody really awesome!  And, just for the fun of it, make me someone younger, K? Not that I'm getting a little sensitive about my age ..... or anything.


----------



## CantSitStill

Does Bfee sound like Dr Phil? Just wondering
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> um..... You are not the only one that hasn't heard him speak in ages. :rofl:
> 
> Go ahead and youtube that and um let us know.
> Even let Stephen Hawking know.
> 
> :rofl:


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Does Bfee sound like Dr Phil? Just wondering
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know why but for some strange reason I just keep thinking that bfree looks and sounds like Jack Nicholson! :scratchhead:


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> I don't know why but for some strange reason I just keep thinking that bfree looks and sounds like Jack Nicholson! :scratchhead:


Heeeeeere's Johnny!


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Heeeeeere's Johnny!


Wonder if I can get bfree to split some wood for me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was profound!!!


----------



## bfree

DevastatedDad said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BPE (Best Post Evah)


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have to read between the lines. He is quite profound.


----------



## EI

I'm afraid we cannot use Garrison Keillor's voice for B1! :nono:We are Baptist, conservative and Republican..... I'm sure you understand!


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> I'm afraid we cannot use Garrison Keillor's voice for B1! :nono:We are Baptist, conservative and Republican..... I'm sure you understand!


Damn. Totally ruined my impression of B1....

(cough, cough...Liberal NY'er and avid NPR listener...)


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Damn. Totally ruined my impression of B1....
> 
> (cough, cough...Liberal NY'er and avid NPR listener...)


Well, I thought I might be opening up a Pandora's Box.....  

That's so unlike me! I usually shy away from controversial subjects!


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> Well, I thought I might be opening up a Pandora's Box.....
> 
> That's so unlike me! I usually shy away from controversial subjects!


I've noticed that about you. You are quite shy with your opinions! :rofl:

Luckily, though, this is not the Political Section of this forum. I would never venture in there given my views on guns, abortion and the corruption of government.

Damn. I just spilled the beans.


----------



## bfree

I got you all beat. I'm a libertarian. We hate everybody. :what:


----------



## B1

Dig a liberal and NPR listener....say it ain't so.....noooooooooo


----------



## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> I got you all beat. I'm a libertarian. We hate everybody. :what:


I would've voted for Ron Paul inside a heartbeat!

Okay..okay...no politics - no politics.

I get into enough trouble with all my Republican biker Brothers on Facebook!! lol


----------



## SomedayDig

B1 said:


> Dig, a Liberal and NPR listener say it ain't so.......noooooooooo.


I can't apologize...but...yep.

(but I am fiscally conservative - mostly along the lines of doing away with the Fed!)

Literally watching the movie 'Zeitgeist: Addendum' at this very moment!


----------



## bfree

I used to be a liberal like you. Then I took an arrow in the knee.


----------



## calvin

Bunch of Republicans in here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> I used to be a liberal like you. Then I took an arrow in the knee.


When we move to Florida in a few months, I am going to register Libertarian. I just don't need to right now cuz there are no elections coming up before our move. However, I am truly a Constitutionalist in my heart. If it's not written in that document, then it has no business in our government.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled infidelity reconciliation thread.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I've noticed that about you. You are quite shy with your opinions! :rofl:
> 
> Luckily, though, this is not the Political Section of this forum. I would never venture in there given my views on guns, abortion and the corruption of government.
> 
> Damn. I just spilled the beans.


Oh c'mon, c'mon, c'mon......... Let's debate, Dig..... I love a good debate........  My very non-confrontational (amazing) husband is sitting across from me shaking his head with a troubled look on his face.  He's giving me the "Oh Honey, please don't start trouble" look!


----------



## calvin

How about the wig party?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> Oh c'mon, c'mon, c'mon......... Let's debate, Dig..... I love a good debate........  My very non-confrontational (amazing) husband is sitting across from me shaking his head with a troubled look on his face.  He's giving me the "Oh Honey, please don't start trouble" look!


Regret would get so maaaad!! LMAO! She hates when she sees me get into it with 99% of my friends on Facebook. Most bikers are pretty right winged. They don't like to be challenged by me. However, they typically retort to angry comments and the debate goes out the window.

I've promised I wouldn't do that on TAM 



calvin said:


> How about the wig party?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ohhhhh...the Whig party. What is this? The 1700's Calvin?! Good God get with the current century!!


----------



## calvin

Union but conservative,lean Republican and I think the Libertarian party has some good ideas.
Enough for me,talking politics can get heated sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Regret would get so maaaad!! LMAO! She hates when she sees me get into it with 99% of my friends on Facebook. Most bikers are pretty right winged. They don't like to be challenged by me. However, they typically retort to angry comments and the debate goes out the window.
> 
> I've promised I wouldn't do that on TAM
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhhh...the Whig party. What is this? The 1700's Calvin?! Good God get with the current century!!


I've been trying to put some life back into the wig party for years now.
Got me and my dog so far,CSS refuses to join.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> I've been trying to put some life back into the wig party for years now.
> Got me and my dog so far,CSS refuses to join.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ya know what? I'm gonna go out on a big f'ng limb. If it's a Friday and I can wear a blonde wig, then count me in.

After all, Liberal is as Liberal does.

:rofl::rofl:


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I would've voted for Ron Paul inside a heartbeat!
> 
> Okay..okay...no politics - no politics.
> 
> I get into enough trouble with all my Republican biker Brothers on Facebook!! lol


Well, then we can't be that far apart because I would have voted for Ron Paul, too. :smthumbup:

Oh, and..... What's NOT to love about a Republican on a bike! 


*Annnnnd........... the Reconciliation thread!!! *


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Ya know what? I'm gonna go out on a big f'ng limb. If it's a Friday and I can wear a blonde wig, then count me in.
> 
> After all, Liberal is as Liberal does.
> 
> :rofl::rofl:


Excellent,another convert!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Non confrontational.....excuse me....

Go rush!


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> Well, then we can't be that far apart because I would have voted for Ron Paul, too. :smthumbup:
> 
> Oh, and..... What's NOT to love about a Republican on a bike!
> 
> 
> *Annnnnd........... the Reconciliation thread!!! *


A Liberal/Unitarianist Constitutionalist on a bike is way hotter. At least it is when I look in the mirror!! :rofl:




calvin said:


> Excellent,another convert!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would like to be known as Daisy. Daisy Dig or Diggin Daisies. I don't care.

...suddenly a flashback of the 1991 flick 'Silence of the Lambs' and Jame Gumb come to mind...I would F me...


Okay. I've posted too much today. I said I was gonna lay low. I must abide by my word. Good night


----------



## calvin

I like the humor that's been showing up on this thread lately,its nice.
One thing I really missed was watching CSS smile and laugh,she looks beautiful when she is happy.
I want more of the smiles and laughs on her face.

I can do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

I like the idea of a powerful woman's voice for my posts. 

They don't get much more powerful than OPRAH. 

YOU get a car! And YOU get a car! And YOU get a car!

I haven't been smiling enough lately either. It was nice to be grinning while reading some of these posts.


----------



## SomedayDig

hopefulgirl said:


> I like the idea of a powerful woman's voice for my posts.
> 
> They don't get much more powerful than OPRAH.
> 
> YOU get a car! And YOU get a car! And YOU get a car!
> 
> I haven't been smiling enough lately either. It was nice to be grinning while reading some of these posts.


YOU get a hump back whale!! And YOU get a hump back whale!! Everyone gets a HUMP BACK WHAAAAAALLLLLLE!!!!

(Dane Cook reference)


----------



## CantSitStill

Just letting you all know so no one thinks anything's wrong. I am returning my cell phone for a better one so I'll be off for about a week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Just letting you all know so no one thinks anything's wrong. I am returning my cell phone for a better one so I'll be off for about a week.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Noooooo..........._


----------



## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> CM will be read as bobcat goldthwait


Ugh. My posts will definitely be shorter if that's the case.


----------



## B1

DevastatedDad said:


>


Whoa..now that was weird...Morgan freeman was just in my living room reading to me....


----------



## ChangingMe

hopefulgirl said:


> I like the idea of a powerful woman's voice for my posts.
> 
> They don't get much more powerful than OPRAH.
> 
> YOU get a car! And YOU get a car! And YOU get a car!
> 
> I haven't been smiling enough lately either. It was nice to be grinning while reading some of these posts.


I like it, hopefulgirl! Oprah suits you!


----------



## ChangingMe

The hell with DD's choice. I am going to go with Bill Cosby. I actually do a fairly decent impression of him, so it seems fitting.


----------



## ChangingMe

WHATEVER!

Robsia, I was watching the video for the Pink song you have quoted. It's excellent. DD doesn't know what he's talking about.


----------



## B1

DevastatedDad said:


> Can I be Christopher Walkin?


Works for me.
love his voice and his acting, i loved him in the rundown.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

DD, you totally just freaked out Matt and I.  We were reading the thread, clicked the next page and all of a sudden Christopher Walkin was everywhere. Totally trippy...


----------



## ChangingMe

Anyone craving some Jello pudding?!?


----------



## EI

You people get a little slap happy around here after dark. Come to think of it, B1 was getting slap happy earlier, too....... Well, it was a different kind of slap and a different kind of happy..... but, anyway.... it worked for me! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Robsia said:


> Not sure I'd agree with that, actually. Once a cheater...
> 
> It's like if you kill someone, you're always a murderer, even if you never kill someone again. The fact that you've done it once kind of brands you.


We can never UNDO the things we are ashamed of, we can make them as right as possible and we can learn from them and move on, but that is it. 
In that case we have committed the act but we are no longer perpetuating it.
Also in that case our former way of life is no longer our current way of life.


You only get one chance to do it right the first time!
Everybody needs a second chance at some point in their life!
Some people show they are worthy of it!

Just ones man's opinion!

Take care!

ETA; Dear CSS, in the long run what other people think matters so little!
Here are some scripture verses that may encourage you.
John 8:11
Romans 6:21-23
Romans 8:31-34
2 Corinthians 5:17


----------



## Robsia

ChangingMe said:


> WHATEVER!
> 
> Robsia, I was watching the video for the Pink song you have quoted. It's excellent. DD doesn't know what he's talking about.


I like songs for themselves. I don't really care who sings them. I don't even know who the other guy is, and a lot of the song is not relevant, but for some reason that line always makes me cry.

And, for the person who quoted Bible at me (especially the words of that über-misogynist, Paul), please don't do it again.

Remember, religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it, but please don't get it out and wave it in my face. And don't try to stick it down my throat.

As you were.


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Honestly, I have no idea if my counselor is any good. She doesn't suggest much, just listens to me for an hour or so and then I make my next appointment. She doesn't really offer guidance or assignments or anything.
> 
> I think in most cases I do pretty well at being exceptionally grateful and mindful of the fact that Matt is still around. I think last night was extra difficult because I couldn't put my finger on anything specific that triggered it. So then it's incredibly frustrating for me to feel like I don't know how to help or what to do to help prevent it from recurring. I'm trying to focus on ACTIONS that will back up what I say to Matt, but I feel so stupid sometimes for not being able to come up with something that will help or clearly communicate my feelings to him.
> 
> I spend every moment that I have focusing on Matt, thinking about how to help him through his pain, create a loving environment for him, and be a good partner to him. Everything in my life is open to Matt. As I said before, I have no friends here, so it's not like I'm confiding anything to ANYONE but him. I am fully transparent, I pursue options to document my days and activities, and Matt and I also talk more now than we have in a long time.
> 
> What I don't know how to help with is the cycling. He says over and over that he's tired of having these conversations with me, that he hates talking about the affair and rehashing the terrible things I've done. They feel unproductive to him and upset us both. We're just wrung out and exhausted after a night like last night. But I always feel like it's better for him to verbalize the thoughts and pain, even if he's already said it, even if I've given him every honest answer that I have, and to go through it again so that it doesn't just fester on the inside. But how do those conversations transform from a broken record into something healing and promoting growth? I show him love and care, I tell him I love him, I tell him I'm sorry. But those words sound empty to me, too, on nights like last night. I can envision a future where we are happy, engaged, and deeply connected again, but I can't get him to share the picture with me, nor can I give him a clear outline of how we'll get there other than what we're currently doing - working through each day, talking more, being considerate, sharing experiences.


To be blunt, MM, when I talked about attitude adjustment, it was this type of thing that I was concerned about. Your sense of frustration is readily apparent and this , more than anything is what is most likely driving your husband away . I am certain as anything, that he is picking up on your impatience. If he needs to ask his questions a thousand times, you need to be there with the answers, a thousand times. Or a thousand times more. There is no time limit on R and the idea that you are doing all you can is a false one. There is always something more that you can do, and if you truly love him you will find out what it is. You had your fun and now you are frustrated because Matt isn't following the procedure and progressing at your percieved pace. what does that tell you ? It seems that you feel entitled , because of your new found love and concern, (which I'm sure that Matt has doubts about) to a certain level of "progress". You have no right at all to judge Matt's feelings or the pace of his healing. . You gave up that right by cheating. Now accept the responsibility for your actions with grace and patience, make no demands, and follow your husbands lead. 
You once were on top of the hill with him, side by side. You slipped down the slope and must work your way back up, but only if he will let you and only at his pace. Accept that, seek new ways to prove and improve yourself and possess yourself with patience.


----------



## Rookie4

I'm sorry if my post seems harsh, but I truly want you to foreget the idea that there is some kind of yardstick to measure progress in R. It doesn't exist and never has . BTW get a new counselor, one who is more involved and communicative.


----------



## Rookie4

DevastatedDad said:


> Look.
> I can't be held responsible if you wanna freak out.
> I mean if you are gonna freak out, you are gonna freak out.
> That's not on me.
> 
> Come to think of it, I could use some pudding.
> Doesn't have to be a pop necessarily, but. Everyone likes pudding.
> 
> I think you understand.


In my opinion, I feel that the reconciliation thread here on TAM would benefit , if only we had just a little more cow bell.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hands of my username DaisyDig!!


----------



## daisygirl 41

hopefulgirl said:


> I like the idea of a powerful woman's voice for my posts.
> 
> They don't get much more powerful than OPRAH.
> 
> YOU get a car! And YOU get a car! And YOU get a car!
> 
> I haven't been smiling enough lately either. It was nice to be grinning while reading some of these posts.


Margaret Thatcher died this week!!
Now there's a powerful lady um man ......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Robsia said:


> And, for the person who quoted Bible at me (especially the words of that über-misogynist, Paul), please don't do it again.
> 
> Remember, religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it, but please don't get it out and wave it in my face. And don't try to stick it down my throat.
> 
> As you were.


Robsia,
The verses that I posted were intended for CSS, whom I happen to know does not react to them as you have.

Out of respect for your über- sensitivity I have removed the text and placed the references under my edit for CSS.

I trust this will be enough for you to keep from gagging on them.

Standing easy.


----------



## Robsia

We FTed last night. We started talking about his AM appointment last Monday. He said it seemed to go okay – she has asked him to keep a mood diary and has referred him back to his GP for blood tests to rule out anything physical before they go ahead with the CBT. But that got us on to road rage, and we started talking about an incident which he told me about a bit ago. He admitted at the time he was in the wrong, he had been in the wrong lane and cut someone up on a roundabout, and she responded by giving him a bit of verbal and making some rude gestures. He said he then slammed his brakes on to make her brake in order to “scare the sh!t out of her” as he so nicely put it. Clearly in the wrong, yes?

Except now, he has nicely rewritten it so that, yes, he was in the wrong on the run up to the roundabout, but he was in the right ON the roundabout as she was in the wrong lane (which she wasn't) and apparently should not have assumed that he would actually obey the rules of the road and not cut her up, or indeed be in the wrong lane to begin with, and he was perfectly within his rights to slam his brakes on to scare her, as he was actually slowing down on the approach to the next roundabout, he just braked a little harder than normally. And of course, if she hadn’t given him verbal he wouldn’t have done that, so it was her fault as much as his.

So we argued about this for a while, me trying to explain why he was wrong, and he stubbornly refusing to admit it.

And then when it got too uncomfortable, he blamed it all on me saying that I had continued the conversation so this was all my fault, and I had ‘spoiled it again’. So I told him that, fine, let’s not have the conversation. So we sat there in silence for a while and he said “Okay I’m bored now.” So I tried to talk about something else briefly but he wouldn’t engage, repeating that he was bored. I told him he’d already said that and he said, “Well, I hoped you would have got the hint.”

So, in order to try to salvage something from this, I said something like, “Look, we both had this conversation, it wasn't just me, it was you too, so don’t try to blame it all on me. If you didn’t want to talk about this, you could have attempted to end the conversation. So, let’s just call it a night, and we can talk tomorrow. Do you want to chat tomorrow?”

He just said “I suppose,” then just stared at me, so I said goodnight. Normally I end our facetime calls, but for some reason, I wanted him to this time, so I just looked at him and he stared back at me. After a while I just walked away. When I came back, he’d ended it so I went to bed.

He’s a very strange individual. If this is his way of impressing me and showing me that he is worthy of considering, he’s got a damned funny way of showing it. The only reason I’m sticking with him at the moment is because I want to give the MC and his AM therapy a good go. But I wasn’t impressed. This is the kind of sh!t he used to pull, except before he did it face to face. It was a shame because before we got onto this conversation, we were having a nice chat.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Decorum said:


> Robsia,
> The verses that I posted were intended for CSS, whom I happen to know does not react to them as you have.
> 
> Out of respect for your über- sensitivity I have removed the text and placed the references under my edit for CSS.
> 
> I trust this will be enough for you to keep from gagging on them.
> 
> Standing easy.


I also appreciated the verses Decorum.
Thank you for sharing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> I also appreciated the verses Decorum.
> Thank you for sharing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## hopefulgirl

Rookie4 said:


> In my opinion, I feel that the reconciliation thread here on TAM would benefit , if only we had just a little more cow bell.


:iagree:

Every situation that I can think of would be made infinitely better if only one would add just a little more COW BELL.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Baby.


----------



## Robsia

Can someone explain the cow bell thing, please?


----------



## hopefulgirl

More Cowbell on Vimeo

Saturday Night Live skit (American TV).


----------



## Robsia

hopefulgirl said:


> More Cowbell on Vimeo
> 
> Saturday Night Live skit (American TV).


All is revealed


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> To be blunt, MM, when I talked about attitude adjustment, it was this type of thing that I was concerned about. Your sense of frustration is readily apparent and this , more than anything is what is most likely driving your husband away . I am certain as anything, that he is picking up on your impatience. If he needs to ask his questions a thousand times, you need to be there with the answers, a thousand times. Or a thousand times more. There is no time limit on R and the idea that you are doing all you can is a false one. There is always something more that you can do, and if you truly love him you will find out what it is. You had your fun and now you are frustrated because Matt isn't following the procedure and progressing at your percieved pace. what does that tell you ? It seems that you feel entitled , because of your new found love and concern, (which I'm sure that Matt has doubts about) to a certain level of "progress". You have no right at all to judge Matt's feelings or the pace of his healing. . You gave up that right by cheating. Now accept the responsibility for your actions with grace and patience, make no demands, and follow your husbands lead.
> You once were on top of the hill with him, side by side. You slipped down the slope and must work your way back up, but only if he will let you and only at his pace. Accept that, seek new ways to prove and improve yourself and possess yourself with patience.


I am NOT frustrated with Matt, nor do I think he feels that I am. I am not measuring anything. 

HE is the one who says he hates having the same conversations over and over. HE is the one who describes them as a broken record. As I mentioned in my previous post - I am happy to talk with him and answer the same questions as many times as it takes. It is hard when I have no NEW answers to give him, and I watch him wrestle with the same information. But I am more than willing to continue giving those answers, and keep doing the introspection and work to make sure they are the most honest and best understanding I have of the situation.

So, I believe the frustration you sense me writing about here is on Matt's behalf, I guess. It is an honest question that I asked, when does it stop feeling like a broken record and feeling like part of the healing process? I think understanding what other BS's have felt about the need to ask repeated questions would help me reassure Matt when he is feeling like that is an unproductive interaction for us.


----------



## old timer

Going forward, I shall be read as Donald Duck. 

Carry on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am NOT frustrated with Matt, nor do I think he feels that I am. I am not measuring anything.
> 
> HE is the one who says he hates having the same conversations over and over. HE is the one who describes them as a broken record. As I mentioned in my previous post - I am happy to talk with him and answer the same questions as many times as it takes. It is hard when I have no NEW answers to give him, and I watch him wrestle with the same information. But I am more than willing to continue giving those answers, and keep doing the introspection and work to make sure they are the most honest and best understanding I have of the situation.
> 
> So, I believe the frustration you sense me writing about here is on Matt's behalf, I guess. It is an honest question that I asked, *when does it stop feeling like a broken record and feeling like part of the healing process? * I think understanding what other BS's have felt about the need to ask repeated questions would help me reassure Matt when he is feeling like that is an unproductive interaction for us.


I understand where you are coming from, MrsM. I too find myself frustrated at myself and the situation I have created for DD and me. Not at him. He is hurting and struggling with the cards I dealt him, and how can I be upset with how he is trying to come to terms with them? But myself -ah, I can be annoyed as hell with myself. I caused this, by God, I want to fix it! But I don't know how, and no matter how I try, it seems insufficient and I hate that. 

I think both you and I are strong-willed women who are used to getting things done. I am used to fixing things, used to figuring things out. This is the biggest mess I've made, and I haven't a clue on how to resolve it. So I am beyond frustrated and angry with myself at the level of damage and pain I've caused and my inability to make it right. 

Not sure if that is just me projecting my feelings onto you, but that is what I read from your post, and I feel it myself. I too though have been accused of seeming like I am frustrated at the length of time healing is taking, but I'm not -only with my inability to help the healing along. 

As for the question I highlighted, I don't have a clear answer. I am right there with you. I have to think though that what we are doing day-in and day-out right now will one day show for something. On a day-to-day basis, I don't think our actions mean a whole lot to our husbands. But maybe a year or two from now, when they are further removed from the pain we have caused, they will look back on the time since DDay and see that we really have changed and we really have worked hard every single day to be better wives, to prove our love, and to be the women they chose to marry many years prior. At least I hope they will see this. And, if not, then either way, you and I will still be much better, stronger women with more integrity than we were in the past.


----------



## ChangingMe

Ok, I'm not gonna lie. Bill is creeping me out a bit when I post.


----------



## old timer

ChangingMe said:


> Ok, I'm not gonna lie. Bill is creeping me out a bit when I post.


Who's Bill?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

old timer said:


> Who's Bill?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cosby. He keeps giving me a weird look from my avatar photo. I may have to go back to my butterfly.


----------



## old timer

ChangingMe said:


> Cosby. He keeps giving me a weird look from my avatar photo. I may have to go back to my butterfly.


I notice the avatar now...duh :slap:

.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

So the hits just keep coming here! As I mentioned earlier, my wife is in Germany at a conference this week, and I am flying solo with the kids Monday through tonight. My daughter came down with a bad stomach bug monday morning and I was home taking care of her Monday/Tuesday. She was back at daycare yesterday and I went back to work. Whew!

Until this morning, when I went to the basement to grab some jeans out of the dryer and found a puddle of raw sewage around our floor drain. And the smell made it clear, this was no storm sewer back up. Yuck!

This has been a very trying week here, with the sick kids, plumbing and just managing a two year old and a five year old on my own. But on top of that, I have been managing through my wife's first overnight trip since her affair two years ago pretty well. She has been working really hard to stay in contact via texts, pictures, phone calls at night. She left me a nice card on my pillow, had flowers sent to my office etc. I am proud of how we have navigated this first big challenge with travel for her, and feel like we managed through what could have been a really huge trigger for me/us. So while it has been hard, I feel really good about I have accomplished. Through it all, I have felt really good. Strong, cofident and somewhat freed even. Super dad? Yup! Super husband? You bet your a$$! As Calvin says, I got this!

So back to the plumbing issue - so I ran to the office for two hours of meetings, shuffled the rest of my day and am now home again with a plumber working away in the basement. Looks like one of our sewer lines that feeds to the main has backed up and caused all the issues. Plumber said - "when was the last time you had this thing rodded out, preventatively?". I just stared at him, with dumb look on my face and said, "not sure what you want to hear . . ." He said "in an older home like this, it's a good idea to have these things rodded every two or three years. I know it's a pain and takes some effort, but it can help you avoid bigger problems along the way."

Not sure why, but it struck me as a good metaphor for marriage. I think we get complacent. We just expect when we flush a toilet, take a shower or run the dishwasher that the plumbing will just always be there, working like it should. But as a house (or marriage) gets older, it needs attention. It needs someone pressure checking, looking for potential weak spots etc before they become major issues. In other words, we shouldn't just take for granted that everything will work perfectly forever. Preventive maintanence, if you will. And just like my plumbing issue, if you don't put that effort in with your marriage, it can turn into one big pile of sh1t pretty quickly! :rofl:

Plus, I like that in this metaphor, one of the critical aspects of this maintenance is regular rodding. . Sign me up!!!

So my wife gets home at 3:00 today. Really looking forward to hearing more about the trip, cooking a nice dinner and eating as a family tonight. Some red wine and a little quiet time on the couch after the kids are down sounds nice too. Anyway, thanks again for all the support guys. Good week. Accomplished week.


----------



## old timer

I'm a huge Cosby fan. Saw him live a few years ago - I was literally crying with laughter. 

He was so funny, with no crude language. He is a master of the craft.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

ChangingMe said:


> I understand where you are coming from, MrsM. I too find myself frustrated at myself and the situation I have created for DD and me. Not at him. He is hurting and struggling with the cards I dealt him, and how can I be upset with how he is trying to come to terms with them? But myself -ah, I can be annoyed as hell with myself. I caused this, by God, I want to fix it! But I don't know how, and no matter how I try, it seems insufficient and I hate that.
> 
> I think both you and I are strong-willed women who are used to getting things done. I am used to fixing things, used to figuring things out. This is the biggest mess I've made, and I haven't a clue on how to resolve it. So I am beyond frustrated and angry with myself at the level of damage and pain I've caused and my inability to make it right.
> 
> Not sure if that is just me projecting my feelings onto you, but that is what I read from your post, and I feel it myself. I too though have been accused of seeming like I am frustrated at the length of time healing is taking, but I'm not -only with my inability to help the healing along.
> 
> As for the question I highlighted, I don't have a clear answer. I am right there with you. I have to think though that what we are doing day-in and day-out right now will one day show for something. On a day-to-day basis, I don't think our actions mean a whole lot to our husbands. But maybe a year or two from now, when they are further removed from the pain we have caused, they will look back on the time since DDay and see that we really have changed and we really have worked hard every single day to be better wives, to prove our love, and to be the women they chose to marry many years prior. At least I hope they will see this. And, if not, then either way, you and I will still be much better, stronger women with more integrity than we were in the past.


We definitely have a lot of similarities... I've always been a doer, action-oriented, sometimes, unfortunately, without enough thought before jumping in. The lack of clearly KNOWING what helps and what doesn't is definitely one of the hardest parts for me. I don't expect to SEE results from Matt, but I'd love to find a way to feel like my feet are slightly on the right path, if that makes any sense. And I think you are exactly right, only time and perspective will help Matt and I both see what worked for us during this time and what didn't. There isn't a bell that chimes when I do something right and a gong for when I don't. 

One of the things that is hardest for us right now with the "repeated conversations" is I feel from Matt like he feels it shows we are "stuck" and can't improve beyond this event as a couple. Because he struggles to picture a world where we have a happy, loving marriage again every time he feels the need to rehash the affair it reinforces his belief that this is all there is anymore. He doesn't view it (from my perception) as a typical and apparently necessary part of processing infidelity. I think it must be, because everyone here talks about the need to ask questions over again. 

Of course, then feeling like Matt sees that as evidence for our inability to recover from this is terrifying and frustrating to me, because I want to help, I want to share my hope and optimism, and dedication to making each day better in whatever small way possible.

Hopefully some of my ramblings today help better clarify what I feel like we are struggling with right now.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Not sure why, but it struck me as a good metaphor for marriage. I think we get complacent. We just expect when we flush a toilet, take a shower or run the dishwasher that the plumbing will just always be there, working like it should. But as a house (or marriage) gets older, it needs attention. It needs someone pressure checking, looking for potential weak spots etc before they become major issues. In other words, we shouldn't just take for granted that everything will work perfectly forever. Preventive maintanence, if you will. And just like my plumbing issue, if you don't put that effort in with your marriage, it can turn into one big pile of sh1t pretty quickly! :rofl:
> 
> Plus, I like that in this metaphor, one of the critical aspects of this maintenance is regular rodding. . Sign me .


Ya know. I knew this was coming. Only you could turn raw sewage into marital instruction. Lol

But you are right. We all tend to get complacent and considering that marriage is the most important and binding factor in our lives you'd think that wouldn't be the case. I know Athol Kay is a polarizing figure sometimes here on TAM but one thing he said always struck me as extremely profound. Don't settle for an unconscious marriage. Wake up and consciously decide to be married each and every day.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



bfree said:


> Ya know. I knew this was coming. Only you could turn raw sewage into marital instruction. Lol
> 
> But you are right. We all tend to get complacent and considering that marriage is the most important and binding factor in our lives you'd think that wouldn't be the case. I know Athol Kay is a polarizing figure sometimes here on TAM but one thing he said always struck me as extremely profound. Don't settle for an unconscious marriage. Wake up and consciously decide to be married each and every day.


Or was it Beowulf that said it now that I think about it?


----------



## Robsia

If I only got rodded every two or three years I'd be pretty miffed :FIREdevil:


----------



## EI

NH2MR, I don't really have a lot to add. I just wanted to say that I think you have a very positive outlook and that your proactive rather than reactive way of handling things is a huge part of your personal success. Your posts are always filled with practical ideas and positive thoughts. I wonder if some of the guys here on this thread who aren't 2+ years into R yet, as you and your wife are, might see you as an example of what the difference a couple of years into R can make.

I hope you'll keep posting here and sharing what continues to work for you. Also, you might want to share some of the pitfalls that occurred earlier in your R, so that other BS's can see that what might have seemed insurmountable, at one point, is now past history. 

Thanks for sharing.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

NH2MR
Fab post.
10 out of 10 for coping so well on your own and 10 out of 10 to your wife for doing everything she could to help you with this difficult situation. I'm so pleased for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Thanks EI, Bfree, Daisy Girl!

So the plumbing crisis has been corrected, and now I have every candle in the house burning trying to get rid of the stench. It stinks!

I will keep posting, but I should clarify our timing a bit. My wife's affair started nearly two years ago, but my DDay was about 18 months ago. 

It has been a hard fought journey so far. I say so far, because I don't think it's ever really over. But I think that's ok, because it means we stay focused on us and continuing to heal and support eachother. There are still tough days, but we get through them together. I think the biggest tool in dealing with the tough days is forcing perspective. Helps us treat a bad moment or a day as exactly that, a bad MOMENT or DAY. It doesnt't mean the wheels are coming off or that we are starting to drift apart etc. By not giving too much power and influence to these moments and days, they are easier to deal with.

One mistake I would say I struggled to move past was the need to ensure my wife was suitably "punished" for her betrayal and deception. It wasn't a conscious thought much of the time (self preservation and defense mechanism). But I felt like I couldn't let her off easy, she had to have consequences for her actions (this is a frequent topic on TAM). And this is true, significant consequences are a must as rugsweeping is a recipe for a repeated disaster. But her consequences couldn't just be about me trying to throw what she had done back in her face in a non productive manner. The real consequences were her seeing what she had done to me, to our family, to my ability to love and trust. I believe empathy to be the single most important attribute in a former WS. And ironically, can also be the biggest preventer of a former WS healing themselves.

In hindsight, I can replay conversations in my head that I had that were based on a genuine desire to get questions answered, understand her foggy thinking, clarifymy feelings etc. And a BS should be allowed to ask any and all questions and get an honest answer. And asking multiple times is ok too. But I also can think of several conversations that I had that weren't really about getting answers or clarity. They were about punishing her. Similar to how some people train a dog when they have an accident in the house. Push their face down by the mess, yell "No, bad dog!" and swat their nose with a rolled up newspaper. In some ways I was doing this same thing with my wife.

"Remember when you betrayed me and the kids? When you lied to our faces and made the most selfish decision possible? No, bad wife!". But this is never effective, nor is it constructive in rebuilding a relationship. 

I talk a lot about the importance of time in healing. I believe that time and a truly committed former WS are the two main ingredients in any successful R. Once you have thos two things, you just need to let them build up enough momentum that you can use that and your inner strength to push from victim to survivor. Then you begin to see things differently. For me, I started to see what my motivation was for asking questions etc. If it was to punish, I refused to ask. If it was truly to better understand something, I asked. If I wanted to talk about aspects of the affair or our struggle to rebuild, I asked myself the same question. Slowly, ALL of our interaction around the affair and aftermath began to be about moving forward. About building a better, stronger marriage etc.

We still talk openly about the affair and our efforts to rebuild, no rugsweeping. But it is always with the right motivation behind it.

Please, do not take the above as chastising anyone on here. It took me at LEAST a year to get here, wherever *here* is. There is no correct timeline, no correct path for all. I am absolutely not judgmental of anyone on this thread. We are all doing the best we can with what we have been dealt. But understanding the deeper motivation for what we are saying and doing is a very powerful tool in R. It requires stopping and thinking vs. reacting. It requires being very honest with yourself, and not always liking what you first see. But that's ok, it is all part of the process.

My wife and I don't have it all figured out, and life is far from perfect. But we work through it together, appreciating eachother everyday. And knowing how close we came to all of it disappearing. We cherish it more, we invest in it more, but we also are careful never to put on rose-colored glasses either. We hold eachother accountable.

That's the end of this ramble . . .


----------



## Rookie4

ChangingMe said:


> I understand where you are coming from, MrsM. I too find myself frustrated at myself and the situation I have created for DD and me. Not at him. He is hurting and struggling with the cards I dealt him, and how can I be upset with how he is trying to come to terms with them? But myself -ah, I can be annoyed as hell with myself. I caused this, by God, I want to fix it! But I don't know how, and no matter how I try, it seems insufficient and I hate that.
> 
> I think both you and I are strong-willed women who are used to getting things done. I am used to fixing things, used to figuring things out. This is the biggest mess I've made, and I haven't a clue on how to resolve it. So I am beyond frustrated and angry with myself at the level of damage and pain I've caused and my inability to make it right.
> 
> Not sure if that is just me projecting my feelings onto you, but that is what I read from your post, and I feel it myself. I too though have been accused of seeming like I am frustrated at the length of time healing is taking, but I'm not -only with my inability to help the healing along.
> 
> As for the question I highlighted, I don't have a clear answer. I am right there with you. I have to think though that what we are doing day-in and day-out right now will one day show for something. On a day-to-day basis, I don't think our actions mean a whole lot to our husbands. But maybe a year or two from now, when they are further removed from the pain we have caused, they will look back on the time since DDay and see that we really have changed and we really have worked hard every single day to be better wives, to prove our love, and to be the women they chose to marry many years prior. At least I hope they will see this. And, if not, then either way, you and I will still be much better, stronger women with more integrity than we were in the past.


CM, Sweetie's therapist told her in the beginning that there is a HUGE difference between being STRONG- willed and being SELF- willed. A strong- willed person wants to help, a self- willed person wants to fix . See the difference? Neither you nor MM can FIX your husband's issues, to even try is probably the wrong tack to take, and is patronizing. Sweetie WAS self-willed but learned humility, so nowe she is strong -willed. I think some humility lessons would do both of you a lot of good. Perhaps you should go to your husband and say. " I broke our marriage and I cannot fix it, only you can , but I will help with all of my being". Don't try to act humble or submissive, that is phony, show your humility in your actions. I think that this will stand you in good stead.


----------



## EI

*NH2MR*, that was an incredibly good post. Thank you for taking the time on, what I know is, a very busy and hectic day at your house. I am very fortunate that B1 realized, early on, with the help of our MC, that the "punishing" type of questions were causing me to shut down and feel that "reconciliation" was merely a means of punishing me. We talked for hours, upon hours every single day for months. Only very recently has it eased up (a bit.) But, B1 really thinks about what he wants to say before he says it. He asks himself what he hopes to gain. He often sends me emails on tough days so that I have time to psychologically prepare. I'm "allowed" to say, "Hey, I'm having a very hard day, myself (like the day our son had major surgery) so can we have this discussion another time?" Because my feelings and needs are being considered in all of this, if B1 is having a difficult day and it can't wait or I can see that he is in pain I tell him that he doesn't have to wait. I don't want him to suffer, but if he is, I don't want him to hold it in to protect me at the expense of hurting himself more. Basically, we are both treating each other with the love, respect and compassion that we should have been all along.


----------



## Malcolm38

I'm thinking about giving my wife another chance.


Also, anything I post here I would like to be read in the voice of Hulk Hogan doing a Steroid fueled promo. 

Hogan Botched Royal Rumble 1991 Promo - YouTube


----------



## B1

Malcolm38 said:


> I'm thinking about giving my wife another chance.
> 
> 
> Also, anything I post here I would like to be read in the voice of Hulk Hogan doing a Steroid fueled promo.
> 
> Hogan Botched Royal Rumble 1991 Promo - YouTube


Welcome to the thread Malcolm...hulk hogan, well that makes for a lively post...I read your post and pictured you in a red shirt ripping it apart. Stick around and give us a brief on what's going on with you now.


----------



## EI

Welcome to the "R" thread, Malcolm/Hulk...... This should be interesting. I'm sure many of the Reconcilers have followed your story, but would you mind giving us a brief summary as to where things stand as of today. I thought that your wife was supposed to move out by April 1st. Did that happen? BTW..... I think you have handled a very difficult situation with a lot of class. I'm glad you're posting here. No matter what direction your marriage ultimately goes in, you will find a tremendous amount of support on the "R" thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Malcolm38 said:


> I'm thinking about giving my wife another chance.
> 
> 
> Also, anything I post here I would like to be read in the voice of Hulk Hogan doing a Steroid fueled promo.
> 
> Hogan Botched Royal Rumble 1991 Promo - YouTube


Malcolm, only you can decide if you want to R and that decision is yours and yours alone. On this thread you will only receive support regardless of your decision and regardless of the outcome.


----------



## ChangingMe

EI, I LOVE the new avatar!


----------



## ChangingMe

NH2MR?, thank you for your post. I found it to be so encouraging and helpful. It is so nice to hear from people who are having a successful R. Seeing as this is a "Coping with Infidelity" forum, it is easy to believe that most people cannot recover, since so many of the posters are struggling so much. Statistics show though that the majority of people do stay married after an affair, and I have to believe that they are not all miserable rugsweepers and that some manage to have loving, fulfilling relationships after such a terrible trauma. 

Your posts are helpful to show that R is attainable, even if there are some triggers and rough days along the way. You are also not even all that far out, at least according to the "2-5 year recovery" we hear about. I know that each situation is unique, but it is so encouraging to read about you and your wife. 

Oh, and I agree that you kicked major a$$ this week. You were able to keep from triggering out while dealing with a kid with a stomach bug (gross) and backed up sewage (even grosser). Kudos, friend. I will now be reading your posts as Christopher Reeves in his Superman days.


----------



## ChangingMe

Welcome to the thread Malcolm. As others have said, this is a very supportive thread, no matter what route you choose to take. 

And I will support your decision to be Hulk Hogan, but I will admit that it makes me a little uncomfortable, since I am picturing ill-fitting, ultra-tight spandex pants on you at the moment. I will try to get past that though.


----------



## walkonmars

Malcolm38 said:


> I'm thinking about giving my wife another chance.
> 
> 
> Also, anything I post here I would like to be read in the voice of Hulk Hogan doing a Steroid fueled promo.
> 
> Hogan Botched Royal Rumble 1991 Promo - YouTube


You are a smart and decent man. You have shown good judgement so far. Trust yourself. Get lost-at-sea in here pronto.


----------



## ChangingMe

WOM, good to "see" you! I haven't come across you much lately, but it's always nice to see your posts pop up. 


And I realize it's silly, but I am loving the alter egos. It is cracking me up. I also think it's interesting who people are choosing. Decorum, I now picture you shuffling around as that snowman when I read your posts. Very entertaining.


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> EI, I LOVE the new avatar!


Well, thank you, I was waiting for someone to notice. See, I told you I was getting my hair done today. Amazing how a little color and a few snips here and there can change your whole look! 

You all understand that my posts will now be read with the voice of Pollyanna??? Fitting, don't you think?


----------



## TCSRedhead

Very fitting EI!!! 

I was told today that I look like Arielle the mermaid so that is the voice I choose. 

I am missing C&B like crazy since I'm traveling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

TCSRedhead said:


> Very fitting EI!!!
> 
> I was told today that I look like Arielle the mermaid so that is the voice I choose.
> 
> I am missing C&B like crazy since I'm traveling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I'll let you be her. That's better than who I picked out for you:


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Rookie
> “I broke our marriage and I cannot fix it, only you can, but I will help with all of my being". Don't try to act humble or submissive, that is phony, show your humility in your actions


I really like this, especially that part about show your ACTIONS!!

I am going to slightly change it or clarify a little bit so that I can comment. Here is my addition/clarification:

“I broke our marriage and I cannot fix it *or fix you*, only you can *fix you*, but I will help with all of my being". Don't try to act humble or submissive, that is phony, show your humility in your actions

I think that a WS can really help to a point. However, there comes a time that the BS needs to get himself/herself better or risk weakening the R or even ruining any chance of success. *Fair or not, the BS has his/her part to do and it is up to him/her to find a way to get better….. then GETTER DONE!*

I do not know the time frame for the BS to get better as very situation has so many variables. I just am convinced that if the WS is really trying and the BS does not get better after the initial (Months-Years?) devastation then the R and Marriage is in real danger of failing. In fact it is almost 100% guarantee to cause serious damage.

This is not just a theory of mine I have witnessed actual marriages that failed due to the BS not getting better and in one case got a lot worse. With this one case the WS spouse wound up lifeless with a pathetic countenance without any self respect and the BS stayed resentful and alienated the whole family. 

If it is best to get a divorce then get a divorce.
*The choice is for the BS to find a way to get better or you will get bitter or stayed depressed!*


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Well, thank you, I was waiting for someone to notice. See, I told you I was getting my hair done today. Amazing how a little color and a few snips here and there can change your whole look!
> 
> You all understand that my posts will now be read with the voice of Pollyanna??? Fitting, don't you think?


B1.....Brother....I'm sorry to have to inform you that your wife EI is suffering from a rare form of alcoholic delusion, known as the Hayley Mills syndrome.


----------



## Rookie4

Speaking of crazy women. I came home from work tonight and Sweetie said she wanted to show me her new swimsuit. She came out of the bedroom with a scuba mask, snorkel, arm floaties, a "SMurf" inflatable ring, swim fins and sun block on her nose and ears. Tomorrow I'm taking her to the nuthouse, although she THINKS we are going to Key West.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> B1.....Brother....I'm sorry to have to inform you that your wife EI is suffering from a rare form of alcoholic delusion, known as the Hayley Mills syndrome.


Well, on my good days I can be very Pollyanna-ish.  On my not-so-good days I can make Kathy Griffin look like a saint! 

B1 never knows which one he is going to wake up beside or come home to. Then, there are those unfortunate days when he leaves Pollyanna behind when he goes to work and comes home to Kathy Griffin. That's called bait and switch! :FIREdevil:


----------



## EI

TCSRedhead said:


> Very fitting EI!!!
> 
> I was told today that I look like Arielle the mermaid so that is the voice I choose.
> 
> I am missing C&B like crazy since I'm traveling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love it.... Time for an avatar change??? 

It has to be hard leaving both of your guys (hubby and baby) when you're working.....


----------



## calvin

Morning,I got the days off I requested.CSS and I will be leaving Thursday and come drive back home Sunday.
She thinks I should go alone but I'll drag her with me if I have too,I know she wants to go so it really didn't take too much convincing.
I think it will be good for both of us,we need this.
I can't wait.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> Speaking of crazy women. I came home from work tonight and Sweetie said she wanted to show me her new swimsuit. She came out of the bedroom with a scuba mask, snorkel, arm floaties, a "SMurf" inflatable ring, swim fins and sun block on her nose and ears. Tomorrow I'm taking her to the nuthouse, although she THINKS we are going to Key West.


:rofl:

Actually, when we move to Florida in a few months, one of the things we are gonna do is take a weekend for just us and go to Key West. I've been there a couple times when I was flying. It's pretty awesome.

We'd like to go for Fantasy Fest!!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Morning,I got the days off I requested.CSS and I will be leaving Thursday and come drive back home Sunday.
> She thinks I should go alone but I'll drag her with me if I have too,I know she wants to go so it really didn't take too much convincing.
> I think it will be good for both of us,we need this.
> I can't wait.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good for you guys...... I think it is going to do you a world of good! Getting away from it all; the kids, the pets, the house, the yard, the job, all of the same ol', same ol' can be so refreshing..... Sometimes, the little get-a-ways are the best kind. They don't require much planning and packing so the return isn't overwhelming, either. 

B1 and I had made plans for 2 days in Gatlinberg, TN next month. We were going with our daughter, s-i-l and grandson. We've rented a chalet in the mountains. We'd be leaving our 20 y/o and our (will be) 18 y/o sons at home... Old enough to take care of themselves for two days..... old enough to get into trouble, too..... But, that's what a good father-in-law is for, right? Unexpected visits... 

Anyway, since our special needs son is now on a new waiver we were going to be able to take advantage of respite care services for those two days and allow him to stay with some of his special needs friends that he attends adult daycare with. He was so excited..... His other friends get to do that all of the time...... I know, our poor son is always "stuck" home with his family.. while the "other kids" all get to hang out together on weekends. Obviously, he doesn't fully appreciate that some of the "other kids" don't have families or their families have completely surrendered them into state care with no involvement from them. Okay, that is a whole different story..... This new waiver was supposed to go into effect on April 1st, so we made reservations for May 19-21. The new waiver case manager called last week and told us that there has been a delay and that it won't go into effect until May 23rd. Story of my life!


----------



## calvin

We'll see if we can hook up you. And B1 Friday or Saturday E1,really hope we can..
I can't wait to get out of here with CSS for a few days,not much packing??
CSS will pack enough to fill the bed of my truck,might have to bring her truck also for her stuff. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

LOL - so if the women paint their bewbs, what do the men paint? What's in it for us ladeez to ogle?


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Morning,I got the days off I requested.CSS and I will be leaving Thursday and come drive back home Sunday.
> She thinks I should go alone but I'll drag her with me if I have too,I know she wants to go so it really didn't take too much convincing.
> I think it will be good for both of us,we need this.
> I can't wait.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You'd better drag her along. I think this trip away from everything is really going to solidify things for both of you. You are going to rebond and when you come home things will really take off for you.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> You'd better drag her along. I think this trip away from everything is really going to solidify things for both of you. You are going to rebond and when you come home things will really take off for you.


Yeah bfree,I know it will be good for us both,I really can't wait.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Yeah bfree,I know it will be good for us both,I really can't wait.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're turning a corner my friend. It's going to get much better now.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

SomeDayDig and Rookie,

I have an assignment for your guys, if you are willing. When you find yourself in Key West, you HAVE to go to Kelly's for happy hour. You must sit at the bar and order a key lime margarita on the rocks with salt and an order of jerked wings. You will thank me. 

When my wife and I went there a few years ago, we stayed at a B&B and the owners recommended that place for a happy hour beverage. We went that first afternoon, and each afternoon for the three more days we were there. I still miss those wings and that drink. And it was dirt cheap if I recall.

Plus it's a cool bar with an old aviation theme (bar top is a wing off of an old pan am jet). Plus it's owned by Kelly Mcgillis of Top Gun fame! Cool stuff!


----------



## MrQuatto

Robsia said:


> LOL - so if the women paint their bewbs, what do the men paint? What's in it for us ladeez to ogle?


We just stir the paint with our paint stick


----------



## bfree

What about spear fishing?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> CM, Sweetie's therapist told her in the beginning that there is a HUGE difference between being STRONG- willed and being SELF- willed. A strong- willed person wants to help, a self- willed person wants to fix . See the difference? Neither you nor MM can FIX your husband's issues, to even try is probably the wrong tack to take, and is patronizing. Sweetie WAS self-willed but learned humility, so nowe she is strong -willed. I think some humility lessons would do both of you a lot of good. Perhaps you should go to your husband and say. " I broke our marriage and I cannot fix it, only you can , but I will help with all of my being". Don't try to act humble or submissive, that is phony, show your humility in your actions. I think that this will stand you in good stead.


Rookie, thanks so much for the thoughts. I've been considering them a lot yesterday and this morning. I think the hardest thing about making that transition for me right now is feeling like there is some conflicting advice. I totally get what you are saying about strong-willed vs. self-willed. But as waywards, we constantly hear that we need to take ownership, be responsible for the heavy lifting, demonstrate consistent actions for our spouses. It's easy then to transfer that into self-willed - feeling like we are responsible for FIXING what we willfully damaged.

Humility is a good and necessary thing, and a skill I know I could use improving on. I was always raised to be "responsible", to recognize my own power and obligations. As I've grown, and particularly when I find myself in stressful situations, I become completely self-willed - feeling the need to "fix" or control everything, instead of asking for help or leaning on others. I consistently feel that if I created a situation, no one but me should have to or could affect it. It's a struggle.

I know I can't "fix" Matt. I guess I do find myself trying to "fix" our relationship, by making efforts each day to interact with him and create the kind of relationship that I think we would both like to be part of - filled with loving, quality time, genuine interest, and communication. I hope having that kind of environment and support will help him as he recovers himself from the damage I caused. 

One of the questions we discussed last night was Matt wondering when my efforts toward him will begin to feel "genuine" to him. Can other BS's comment on that feeling? We were disconnected for so long, and I did so many horrible things, that he has a hard time accepting my interest in his hobbies, my efforts at conversation, and desire for quality time as something honest and heartfelt, rather than just trying to "fake it" or placate him. I was always interested in him, but I became very passive about it as our relationship went on over the years. I let him bring things to me, rather than seeking him out and asking questions. I was definitely in an "unconscious marriage" as bfree described the other day, and now I am VERY much in "conscious" mode and the shift is dizzying for Matt. I described it a little as watching standard TV and then switching to High-Def... I always enjoyed the program, but stopped paying attention to all the little details that make it so amazing, and now I'm so aware of every magical thing, rather than generically absorbing the whole. I think that only time will help him accept that renewed engagement from me as legitimate, but would be interested to hear about others experiences.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Decorum said:


> Mrs M.,
> I dont have a lot of experience to speak to this but I can comment about re-connecting with my wife after a period of dis-connsction where our focus was on our kids, her health, and surviving.
> 
> It got to the point where I felt our personalities were toxic to each other, as we began to reconnect my wifes efforts seemed forced, partly because of our difference in interests. After a while I could tell that she really did have "the want to" and I have been able to receive that as her interest in me and us, and that closed the gap quite a bit.
> 
> When we love someone we make choices in our soul to please them, the 5LL's aside, it is the the intention of the choice that comes through, and it is the enduring quality of the intention that is reassuring, but the assurance is based on the good character of our partner.
> 
> It is and will continue to be an issue of character, your character, for Matt.
> 
> I would see your question as "When will Matt know that I am a trustworthy person of good character" if you dont mind my restating it.
> 
> There is no shortcut here.
> 
> You have a deficit here, the leap of faith based on the benifit of the doubt so common in a new relationship is no longer an option.
> 
> Ultimately Matt will decide for himself when and if you are a good risk, you must do all you can, I believe you are tyring and growing, and wait for him.


Thanks, I appreciate the thoughts and perspectives. I know trust and character is a big part of this. And I just want to make sure this is clear - I'm not asking a when question or looking for a shortcut. Matt asked when.... I am also curious on his behalf. And maybe what he really wonders is HOW? How will my efforts feel more genuine to him when we do have this deficit of trust to overcome? I said above, and you reinforced that time is really the answer, and consistency, at least, I think so.

I'm not sure. Sometimes it seems that the questions we wonder or experience are as difficult to find the core of as anything else right now.


----------



## MrQuatto

Mrs m, it definitely is not an easy task but a few matter of fact points from my experience.

Don't engage in something he knows you don't like or care about. We don't all have to have all the same interests. I play in a band and my wife was a fair weather fan at best. If during R she suddenly came to every show, every practice and inquired about every little thing, that would seem forced. Just be as you have always been on those interests you really dislike or just don't care about. 

Center on the common. There ARE areas you both like. Increase participation in those and, again, be yourself. Matt has known you for years. He will be looking for those familiar signs he knew you for in the past, pre affair. 

Lose what ails ya. Do NOT engage in activities, With or without him, that you increased or started during the affair time. Those have trigger potential. - I got my wife into Harry potter fan fiction. As time went on, it turned erotic and that is what led her to her EA. from R on, she never went back to any hp fanfiction and it helped me, I think.

Lastly, communicate. It can sound like a broken record but, face it. THats what led to the problem in the 1st place, the lack of communication on both parties part as to what was missing or needed. Only communication will keep the relationship growing. 


Q~


----------



## bfree

Mrs M, two things you need to understand. Your efforts are not going to feel genuine to Matt until he and you believe them. What I mean is that he cannot believe you because he doesn't trust you. As you rebuild trust over time he will begin to see that you are being genuine. And until he starts to believe it and accept it it will feel forced. The other thing you need to understand is that you aren't fixing your old marriage. You couldn't anyway. Your old marriage is over. It ended when the vows were broken. You are building a new marriage and relationship. That is how you need to approach this mentally if you want this to work. This is a chance to enhance all the qualities Matt loves about you and working on all the areas that were a problem in the past.


----------



## MrQuatto

Remember, 2 wrongs don't make it right 

but 3 rights make a left


----------



## Rookie4

Well, everybody, we're off like a prom dress. We had a small glitch that put us back a few hours , but it's all good to go now. We get back home late Tues. or early Wed. so I'll talk to all of my TAM amigos and amigas then. MM I will PM you and we can talk when I get home. We will try to get to Kelly's and do all of the other fun stuff you folks have suggested, but our main focus is to relax and enjoy each other. I will say one thing , though. Sweetie will barely be able to walk when I get through with her fine ass. See Ya!!!!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

Hello, well yesterday was real rough but we got thru it and seem better.v Anyone ever watch Hope Springs? The vows they made at the end made me cry. What a movie. Anyway I hope you all arevgood . I read up on the last fee pages and its funny that you were talking about ttying to fix the BS. We were talking about that last night and calvin said I can't fix him and its up to him to do. Yesterday. Was one of our worst.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Ugg not used to touch screen
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> SomeDayDig and Rookie,
> 
> I have an assignment for your guys, if you are willing. When you find yourself in Key West, you HAVE to go to Kelly's for happy hour. You must sit at the bar and order a key lime margarita on the rocks with salt and an order of jerked wings. You will thank me.
> 
> When my wife and I went there a few years ago, we stayed at a B&B and the owners recommended that place for a happy hour beverage. We went that first afternoon, and each afternoon for the three more days we were there. I still miss those wings and that drink. And it was dirt cheap if I recall.
> 
> Plus it's a cool bar with an old aviation theme (bar top is a wing off of an old pan am jet). Plus it's owned by Kelly Mcgillis of Top Gun fame! Cool stuff!


Done it!

I am a huge fan of jerked chicken, especially when its done with the real thing!! The margaritas are just a no brainer. Just like visiting Margaritaville. You just have to.

Thanks for reminding me, though. Regret will certainly have a blast.

PS...being a pilot did ya really think I wouldn't visit that joint!?!! (Kelly McGillis....grrrrwaaarrr!)


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Hello, well yesterday was real rough but we got thru it and seem better.v Anyone ever watch Hope Springs? The vows they made at the end made me cry. What a movie. Anyway I hope you all arevgood . I read up on the last fee pages and its funny that you were talking about ttying to fix the BS. We were talking about that last night and calvin said I can't fix him and its up to him to do. Yesterday. Was one of our worst.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah yesterday was bad,watched CSS cry and offer to leave,I was indifferent to her before I got home.
I couldent stand to see her cry,we talked for hours and did a crapload of cuddling,watched " Hope Springs Eternal",I finished the book "Unbroken" and have had a strange sense of peace since.
She will not cry about this anymore,no one is going anywhere,yes I took this attitude before but watching her hurt and cry just about killed me.
Its over,I mean it.
Guess a remorseful WS can really hurt bad too.
Today has been great for us,few more days and we can get the fvck out of Dodge for a little while.
Love you CSS,we're good.
Its over.....Promise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Love you so much honey and want you to be happy. That's what I really really want. Don't like how I hurt you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Trying for me to try to come up with a solution just is not possible. I was thinkingthat he would be happier if I was gone from his life. Was thinkinf how can I make it to where he wouldn't have to have any financial burden of having to divorce me. Like a! way to help him just be free from me yet not have to pay for a divorce but it just doesn't work that way. Yes that is crazy but I hate that he hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Alrighty then my posts will now be read in the voice of James T. Kirk.
Yes, I am a Trekkie. No, I have never attended a conference. But I love Star Trek. Always wanted to captain a starship, now I can.

I won't be around much this weekend the Klingons have invited me to their planet to discuss a treaty. Then on to the neutral zone to see what trouble I can get into there. Hopefully Scottie can keep the warp drives going and bones can keep me grounded. We have a new crew member on board wearing a red shirt, poor guy, he doesn't even know what's coming...


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Trying for me to try to come up with a solution just is not possible. I was thinkingthat he would be happier if I was gone from his life. Was thinkinf how can I make it to where he wouldn't have to have any financial burden of having to divorce me. Like a! way to help him just be free from me yet not have to pay for a divorce but it just doesn't work that way. Yes that is crazy but I hate that he hurts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I ment what I said.
I love you and we are good,can't wait for the trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



B1 said:


> Alrighty then my posts will now be read in the voice of James T. Kirk.
> Yes, I am a Trekkie. No, I have never attended a conference. But I love Star Trek. Always wanted to captain a starship, now I can.
> 
> I won't be around much this weekend the Klingons have invited me to their planet to discuss a treaty. Then on to the neutral zone to see what trouble I can get into there. Hopefully Scottie can keep the warp drives going and bones can keep me grounded. We have a new crew member on board wearing a red shirt, poor guy, he doesn't even know what's coming...


"I'm a doctor not a bricklayer!"


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> PS...being a pilot did ya really think I wouldn't visit that joint!?!! (Kelly McGillis....grrrrwaaarrr!)


Dig, you do KNOW about Kelly McGillis, right?


----------



## MattMatt

B1 said:


> Alrighty then my posts will now be read in the voice of James T. Kirk.
> Yes, I am a Trekkie. No, I have never attended a conference. But I love Star Trek. Always wanted to captain a starship, now I can.
> 
> I won't be around much this weekend the Klingons have invited me to their planet to discuss a treaty. Then on to the neutral zone to see what trouble I can get into there. Hopefully Scottie can keep the warp drives going and bones can keep me grounded. We have a new crew member on board wearing a red shirt, poor guy, he doesn't even know what's coming...


Actually, a mutual admiration for Star Trek voyager precipitated my EA near PA with the OW. Gawd! That could only happen to a real geek, right?:rofl:


----------



## calvin

I think I'll do Billy Bob Thortons voice in "Sling Blade".
Mmm hmm.
Need CSS to make me some biscuits and mustard I reckon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

Well, MattMatt, that's the trouble with Tribbles....


----------



## MrQuatto

B1 said:


> Alrighty then my posts will now be read in the voice of James T. Kirk.
> Yes, I am a Trekkie. No, I have never attended a conference. But I love Star Trek. Always wanted to captain a starship, now I can.
> 
> I won't be around much this weekend the Klingons have invited me to their planet to discuss a treaty. Then on to the neutral zone to see what trouble I can get into there. Hopefully Scottie can keep the warp drives going and bones can keep me grounded. We have a new crew member on board wearing a red shirt, poor guy, he doesn't even know what's coming...


Make it so!


----------



## MattMatt

hopefulgirl said:


> Well, MattMatt, that's the trouble with Tribbles....


Tribbles are cool!

My problems ran like this: "Which character do you most fancy in Star Trek Voyager?"

I opted for Captain Janeway, OW for Harry Kim. Next question: "Who do you fancy in real life?" Really should not have been answered with: "You." Idiot that I was...


----------



## MrQuatto

Mmmm, 7


----------



## Robsia

B1 said:


> Alrighty then my posts will now be read in the voice of James T. Kirk.
> Yes, I am a Trekkie. No, I have never attended a conference. But I love Star Trek. Always wanted to captain a starship, now I can.
> 
> I won't be around much this weekend the Klingons have invited me to their planet to discuss a treaty. Then on to the neutral zone to see what trouble I can get into there. Hopefully Scottie can keep the warp drives going and bones can keep me grounded. We have a new crew member on board wearing a red shirt, poor guy, he doesn't even know what's coming...


Yay - another Trekkie!! But now you realise you have to rip your shirt off at least once a week. With pictures to prove it!!


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> Dig, you do KNOW about Kelly McGillis, right?


Yes...but that doesn't hurt my memories of her from 1986 (and every time I see that movie!)


----------



## Robsia

OK - I come on here a lot posting about negative stuff. Now something good for a change.

WH came round last night. He turned up early, with flowers! He was perfectly behaved, we had a lovely snuggly evening, and (TMI warning) he even initiated intimacy, which was something I had raised with him - that it always seemed to be me who initiated it in our M and it would be nice if he did once in a while, took charge, KWIM?

Anyway, he did, and it was lovely.

We talked some afterwards about some things that were bothering me, and he was really good and was able to reassure me on a few points.

Today we are all going out (me, WH, and my 2 dds) to see The Wizard of Oz at a local theatre.

Also, he had his first AM appt last Monday and she has referred him back initially to his GP for bloods to see if there is a physical reason for his anger problems. He had a telephone appt yesterday with the GP who asked him lots of questions and suggested he might be clinically depressed.

He has gone through a lot in the last few years - his first wife left him only five years ago, not long before he met me and, although he claimed not to care, I could tell he did. Since then we went through such a lot together, and I did my best to help him through it, but we both went through a lot. it was tough, and once he met me, his sons didn't speak to him for 2.5 years. His youngest son even went so far as to get a solicitor to write to him instructing him not to contact him, although we think that was orchestrated by the ex-W. He had to send birthday cards via the solicitor! They were 12 and 16 when she left, and I think they thought they were going to get back together and him meeting me put paid to that. Even now, they didn't restart the relationship till we separated for a while last summer. Even now they still think we are separated and he had not disabused them of that idea. I told him he needs to tell them the truth, but he is afraid to jeopardise the fragile relationship that they have managed to build.

However, when they were down visiting him earlier this week, he was showing them some pictures of our visit to Anfield Stadium in Liverpool. They asked him who took them and he said I did. Apparently they went a bit quiet and he clarified and said, "You know, Robsia, my wife." So maybe that is a first step.

When we were talking about his appt he said he can't remember ever being properly happy pretty much his whole life. Sure, there were moments of happiness, but he said it seems that he was unhappy far more than he was happy, which is the reverse of most people.

Anyway, if his anger problems can be sorted out by popping a pill once a day, that would be wonderful - certainly simpler than months of CBT, anyway.

On the whole, a really good day yesterday


----------



## calvin

Morning,at work...again but just four more days and me and CSS can take our road trip,I'm going to make her ride in the bed of the truck. .
Glad to hear some good news Robsia.
I still feel good,I really hope I was in the final struggles of letting it all go,I have too.
I can't come home from work anymore and see CSS upset.
We move on together now.
Have a good weekend people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Robsia said:


> Yay - another Trekkie!! But now you realise you have to rip your shirt off at least once a week. With pictures to prove it!!


What happens to me when I trigger....this!


----------



## B1

calvin said:


> Morning,at work...again but just four more days and me and CSS can take our road trip,I'm going to make her ride in the bed of the truck. .
> Glad to hear some good news Robsia.
> I still feel good,I really hope I was in the final struggles of letting it all go,I have too.
> I can't come home from work anymore and see CSS upset.
> We move on together now.
> Have a good weekend people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin you will probably still have bad moments but the difference is, now you seem to recognize that just because you have a bad moment it doesn't mean it's over and your done. CSS needs to know this also.

I'm only saying this because I suspect you will still go through some rough patches, but that's ALL they are, rough patches, not marriage ending events.

I triggered just yesterday driving with EI, I had to pull over and, yes you guessed it, cry....then it was over. We ended up having a nice time. It was a rough patch, that's it. I know it and she knows it. I don't make it out to be anything other than that either.

Even during the trigger I tell her it will be ok I'm just having a hard time for the moment. Still it's so hard on her when I do this, I know this so I reassure EI that I will be ok and we are ok. 

Like CSS, EI takes it hard when I trigger and get upset. It hurts her to see it. She knows she's the cause and that's painful to her.

Also on a side note....
our ws hurt too, we take the limelight though, our pain and struggles are priority one almost all the time. The ws never really gets that Priority one spot. Perhaps we need to let them have that spot sometimes. Remember this is ALL about healing and that means the ws has to heal also if we truly want to R.


----------



## bfree

B1 said:


> What happens to me when I trigger....this!


And here's what happens when I see you trigger.


----------



## B1

bfree said:


> And here's what happens when I see you trigger.


And here is what happens when I see you see me trigger...


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## B1

B1 said:


> And here is what happens when I see you see me trigger...


And what Spock looks like when. He sees me trigger....:rofl:









Ok..ok..I will stop.


----------



## StarGazer101

B1 I've actually thought a few times that it would be an interesting project to illustrate my experience of infidelity using pictures from Star Trek (honestly! ) - it is such a relief to know that I'm not uniquely batty! :smthumbup:

I am a member of another forum where I organised A Star Trek Murder Mystery game ...... I was stunned when it emerged that around 50% of my forum friends knew nothing about Star Trek :scratchhead: They do now! 

 I am a bit of a Trekkie - Jean Luc Picard is my dream man - intelligent, an innate integrity and brave and thoughtful and strong and (_I could go on and on and on............._) Janeway is a role model. We are actually sitting with ST on TV now (the one with Harry Mudd and his lovely companions). 

B'elanna Torres is the character for me


----------



## calvin

I love Star Trek,the original and the other series also.
CSS hates it.
She has no tast.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Counselor Troi.

Why I'm not paying top dollar to go see her on Tuesdays is beyond me!




Hello, my name is Dig. I am a Trekker.


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## Robsia

The awesomeness of how many Trekkies are here is beyond awesome.

As an Aspie I identify strongly with Spock in the whole controlling of emotion (especially negative ones - in fact my WH once described me as Spock-like to our first MC) and Data in the whole total confusion about WTF everyone is talking about.


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia said:


> As an Aspie I identify strongly with Spock in the whole controlling of emotion (especially negative ones - in fact my WH once described me as Spock-like to our first MC) and Data in the whole total confusion about WTF everyone is talking about.


:lol:

I know an Aspie, and never thought of her in a Data sort of way, but now that you mention it, the comparison DOES kind of fit.

She is totally guileless and one of the nicest people I know, by the way.


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## MrQuatto

calvin said:


> I love Star Trek,the original and the other series also.
> CSS hates it.
> She has no tast.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, my wife as well. And doctor who makes her crazy. She doesn't do time travel shows very well.

Star gazer, when I was on aol (back in he dark ages) we had a Star Trek role play simulation. Had about 100 people on 10 ships, Was a lot of fun


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## calvin

Watching Les Mis'erables.
I have heard of the book and play but never knew anything about it.
Very interesting and I dig Liam Neeson.
I think I can learn something from this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Oh - the 'other' film version! I saw that one recently for the first time.

Les Mis is something of an obsession of mine. When I was 16 our music teacher took us down to London to see it. Prior to going we listened to the music and I actually got the book out of the library and read it before we went.

I fell in love and since then I have seen the musical stage version nine times, plus the 10th and 25th anniversary concerts. I also have the complete symphonic soundtrack which I can sing pretty musch off by heart. I also read the book again some twenty years after reading it for the first time - thanks to free kindle versions!

When the musical film version came out in January I naturally went to see it. It was pretty good. Some parts, the stage version was better, in some, the film was better.

It was after that I watched the Liam Neeson version - it's not bad, but there is a LOT that is missed out, including pretty much the entire ending.

Personally I think the most important lesson that Les Mis teaches us is that there are people in this world who can rise above the direst of misfortunes and injustices, and still become the best of men, devoting their lives to helping other people. Jean Valjean is the perfect hero.


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## calvin

Robsia said:


> Oh - the 'other' film version! I saw that one recently for the first time.
> 
> Les Mis is something of an obsession of mine. When I was 16 our music teacher took us down to London to see it. Prior to going we listened to the music and I actually got the book out of the library and read it before we went.
> 
> I fell in love and since then I have seen the musical stage version nine times, plus the 10th and 25th anniversary concerts. I also have the complete symphonic soundtrack which I can sing pretty musch off by heart. I also read the book again some twenty years after reading it for the first time - thanks to free kindle versions!
> 
> When the musical film version came out in January I naturally went to see it. It was pretty good. Some parts, the stage version was better, in some, the film was better.
> 
> It was after that I watched the Liam Neeson version - it's not bad, but there is a LOT that is missed out, including pretty much the entire ending.
> 
> Personally I think the most important lesson that Les Mis teaches us is that there are people in this world who can rise above the direst of misfortunes and injustices, and still become the best of men, devoting their lives to helping other people. Jean Valjean is the perfect hero.


This is the first time I ever saw anything about. Les Mis'erables.
Excellent so far,now I will have to find another older verson.
Yes it does show that people can rise above what they were or what they did (myself included) and beome a different person and never repeat things they regret in the past.
I know no one believes me and rightfully so but after finishing the book Unbroken I have a new outlook on a lot of things in life.
That's all I can pretty much say right now.
I think CSS knows
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> This is the first time I ever saw anything about. Les Mis'erables.
> Excellent so far,now I will have to find another older verson.
> Yes it does show that people can rise above what they were or what they did (myself included) and beome a different person and never repeat things they regret in the past.
> I know no one believes me and rightfully so but after finishing the book Unbroken I have a new outlook on a lot of things in life.
> That's all I can pretty much say right now.
> I think CSS knows
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why not tell CSS. Make it a positive statement. A commitment from you to her. 
It is good that you say it so you hear it to Calvin. 😇
Communication is key between both of you. 
Have a great trip. 
Hm64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Sorry...and I am a dope about this, but as a comic book fan from the 70's, I can't watch this Mis thing without waiting for Wolverine's titanium blades to come out and kill someone.

Then again, I saw the play in high school and even as a drama fan, I would rather see a movie of the Pirates of Penzance starring Brad Pitt.


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## CantSitStill

Thank you happyman for the book 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

hopefulgirl said:


> :lol:
> 
> I know an Aspie, and never thought of her in a Data sort of way, but now that you mention it, the comparison DOES kind of fit.
> 
> She is totally guileless and one of the nicest people I know, by the way.


Where the parallel breaks is that Spok / Data were pure logic, but often Aspie's aren't driven by logic.

They will have sometimes get very locked into a position, and convince themselves that it is the rational, logical position to take by spinning the rationalization hamster. They will form a long, detailed rationalization of their wild position and refuse to budge.

The character Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory nails this trait well.


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## Robsia

SomedayDig said:


> Sorry...and I am a dope about this, but as a comic book fan from the 70's, I can't watch this Mis thing without waiting for Wolverine's titanium blades to come out and kill someone.
> 
> Then again, I saw the play in high school and even as a drama fan, I would rather see a movie of the Pirates of Penzance starring Brad Pitt.


I love P of P - did you ever see the movie version with Kevin Kline?


----------



## Robsia

larry.gray said:


> Where the parallel breaks is that Spok / Data were pure logic, but often Aspie's aren't driven by logic.


Vulcans do have emotions, but they suppress them. That's why I feel very Vulcan-like at times. I don't suppress the positive emotions - why would anyone want to, but I do suppress the negative ones, to the extent that I come across as uncaring or unfeeling when in actual fact I'm suppressing them so I don't have to feel them, because feeling them is unpleasant.

When we argued in the past, my H would get very frustrated with me because I don't react they way he thinks I should, so he would try even harder to get a reaction from me, which was getting more and more unpleasant toward me. I would respond by holding my reactions in tighter and tighter. If he pushed me hard enough then yes, he would get a reaction, and generally he didn't like it. I have a very volatile temper and can be violent, which is why I learned to control it. My H never understand that I was controlling it to protect us, he would deliberately needle me to get a response. Until I met him I had not felt that hideous anger in fifteen years. The last time I felt it, I put a man in hospital.



> They will have sometimes get very locked into a position, and convince themselves that it is the rational, logical position to take by spinning the rationalization hamster. They will form a long, detailed rationalization of their wild position and refuse to budge.
> 
> The character Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory nails this trait well.


Well of course it is the logical position. otherwise why would we hold it  We're always right, didn't you know?


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## daisygirl 41

I think it was Lord Mayhem ( forgive me if I'm wrong), who wrote the wonderful thread about letting go. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.
Anyway when my H was in his A I read and re read that thread and was eventually able to put it into practice, and this is one of the tools the vital pieces of advice that started of our road to R. I let him go. Gave him my blessing and set him free to be the person he wanted to be and well, the rest is history. 

Nearly 2 years since our first Dday and a year into R I am ready to let the A go. It is not going to define us anymore. I am ready to move on. Ready to commit again to my H who shows me and tells me everyday in his words and actions that he loves me and is committed to me. It isn't easy but I feel that I need to do this in order for us to move forward. I am the one holding us back now, afraid of letting go of the hurt, afraid to trust, afraid of being let down again. I don't want to live in fear anymore. I refuse to.

We have my middle sons prom coming up in May. It was the evening of my eldest sones prom 2 years ago on the same date that I got the ilybnilwy speech. Looking at my sons prom pictures are a painful reminder. I'm not going to let those memories spoil another prom. I'm not going to aloe the past to define me anymore. I need to let it go.
This doesn't mean that I'm not going to still have mind movies, triggers and bad days, I have no control over that, but I want this A to be part of our past now. Now our marriage is in a good place. We are in love again, we respect each other, we are having fun, our marriage is probably better than it has been for years, despite the A and not because of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Wow DG, sounds like you are in a great place. Good for you. Trusting was something that came easier for me with EI. Letting the A go...putting it into the past, still working on that one. Would love to see that post myself.


----------



## daisygirl 41

B1 said:


> Wow DG, sounds like you are in a great place. Good for you. Trusting was something that came easier for me with EI. Letting the A go...putting it into the past, still working on that one. Would love to see that post myself.


The post was more about letting the WS go when they were still in the A but I think some of the same principals apply.
I am in a good place B1 and part of that comes from reading yours and others posts here on this wonderful thread. I Have gathered strength from all of you and know now what I have to do in order to move forward again. It's scary and liberating at the same time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Your post dg did stir up something in me, "I am the one holding us back"
This is true in my case. But I assume it is like that in most all infidelity cases. We, the BS, hold things up and at some point we have to let go.
I imagine its something that happens gradually over time and its not a conscience effort, or is it?

On a side note.....
Should be a good day, taking my youngest out today for senior portraits, we are hitting up an old railroad station to shoot them in. 
Yes my youngest is a senior..guess that makes me old


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## daisygirl 41

B1 said:


> Your post dg did stir up something in me, "I am the one holding us back"
> This is true in my case. But I assume it is like that in most all infidelity cases. We, the BS, hold things up and at some point we have to let go.
> I imagine its something that happens gradually over time and its not a conscience effort, or is it?


A mixture of the two B1. Remember my H still works with the OW. I cannot live in fear everyday that the A is going to start again. I need to move on, for my own sanity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Fix You

When you try your best, but you don't succeed
When you get what you want, but not what you need
When you feel so tired, but you can't sleep
Stuck in reverse

And the tears come streaming down your face
When you lose something you can't replace
When you love someone, but it goes to waste
Could it be worse?

Lights will guide you home
And ignite your bones
And I will try to fix you

And high up above or down below
When you're too in love to let it go
But if you never try you'll never know
Just what you're worth

Lights will guide you home
And ignite your bones
And I will try to fix you

Tears stream down your face
When you lose something you cannot replace
Tears stream down your face
And I...

Tears stream down your face
I promise you I will learn from my mistakes
Tears stream down your face
And I...

Lights will guide you home
And ignite your bones
And I will try to fix you


----------



## daisygirl 41

Love that song Dig. 
Brings a tear to my eye everytime!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

larry.gray said:


> Where the parallel breaks is that Spok / Data were pure logic, but often Aspie's aren't driven by logic.
> 
> They will have sometimes get very locked into a position, and convince themselves that it is the rational, logical position to take by spinning the rationalization hamster. They will form a long, detailed rationalization of their wild position and refuse to budge.


Hmmm...sounds like my stbxw - honestly. 

Wonder if that could be considered a borderline personality disorder?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

B1 said:


> Your post dg did stir up something in me, "I am the one holding us back"
> This is true in my case. But I assume it is like that in most all infidelity cases. We, the BS, hold things up and at some point we have to let go.
> I imagine its something that happens gradually over time and its not a conscience effort, or is it?


I think that it's being a little too hard on yourself and on us BS's to suggest that we're holding things up because posttraumatic reactions aren't really something we have a lot of control over. Also, grief is in the mix, and that's not something that you ever "get over" - with grief, time is necessary to help lessen the sting from the various losses suffered.

Our WS's, even the ones who have totally put the A behind them and are fully remorseful and are whole-heartedly devoted to the marriage, can help us heal, but our wounds are DEEP. Most of us most of the time (with some exceptions and some slip ups) aren't doing anything to hold the couple back - we are doing our darndest to recover from having our world torn apart. 

We WANT to move forward; flashbacks and triggers and the low energy that comes with grief aren't something we asked for. It's not our fault. It takes time, and that's just the sad truth about how devastatingly painful and long-lasting the effects of an A can be.


----------



## Robsia

old timer said:


> Hmmm...sounds like my stbxw - honestly.
> 
> Wonder if that could be considered a borderline personality disorder?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Asperger's and BPD are not the same thing.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Robsia said:


> Asperger's and BPD are not the same thing.


Indeed they are not.


----------



## SomedayDig

I prefer ham bergers.

Though, Regret made some awesome chicken quesadillas tonight!!


----------



## CantSitStill

Ohhh I get it azz burgers lol soo blonde sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Prefer cheeseburgers off the grill myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

If I get fired from TAM for my commentary on TornNBroken's thread for my commentary about the bullsnot called "alpha males" I just wanted to say I love all of ya's and thanks for the memories.


----------



## CantSitStill

Be careful Dig. We need you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> If I get fired from TAM for my commentary on TornNBroken's thread for my commentary about the bullsnot called "alpha males" I just wanted to say I love all of ya's and thanks for the memories.


Don't do it, Dig! Don't do it!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

Lol EI great minds think alike 
_P osted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> Thank you happyman for the book
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My pleasure CSS. You read it too!


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> Don't do it, Dig! Don't do it!!!


Sorry, EI...what must be done...must be done.

THAT.

Is what their f'ng idea of Alpha is. They really have no clue as to it's purest definition is.


----------



## happyman64

SomedayDig said:


> Sorry, EI...what must be done...must be done.
> 
> THAT.
> 
> Is what their f'ng idea of Alpha is. They really have no clue as to it's purest definition is.


Ok Dig. I think I just saw you fly by my house and I took a quick pick for everyone to see what you really look like! 










I guess the S stands for "Someday"!!!


----------



## jim123

SomedayDig said:


> Sorry, EI...what must be done...must be done.
> 
> THAT.
> 
> Is what their f'ng idea of Alpha is. They really have no clue as to it's purest definition is.


I hope you do not get banned as you provide a very good balance to the board

You did not attack anyone and I agree with you about the alpha thing and the sex rank.

In the end we help people through these times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

CantSitStill said:


> Ohhh I get it azz burgers lol soo blonde sorry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


May I politely inform you that many people with Asperger's consider that an offensive term?


----------



## larry.gray

She was trying to type ass but thought that would be censored so she used zz instead of ss.


----------



## Robsia

larry.gray said:


> She was trying to type ass but thought that would be censored so she used zz instead of ss.


I am aware of that. It is the original with the 'ss' that is considered offensive.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Both of us back to work today after a 2 week break.
Won't see Hubby for 3 days now.
Think happy thoughts!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Robsia said:


> I am aware of that. It is the original with the 'ss' that is considered offensive.


In all fairness, I started it with my ham berger joke. While it might be sensitive to you and some others, in the end it was just light hearted commentary. Apologies for upsetting you.


----------



## Robsia

Thank you for the apology. In the Aspie community, that particular 'joke' is considered an insult, a taunt often used in the playground to reduce Aspie children to tears, or worse. I have never heard it used by an adult.

I am aware that if you have no contact with the Aspie community, you would probably not be aware of this, which I why I was politely informing people, so that they would know in the future.

Taunts and insults against those with mental issues such such as 'mong' or 'spaz' are more well-known and generally reviled. Just because it is not as well-known, does not mean it is not as offensive.

Now you know.

As you were.


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh Robsia I was trying to figure out Digs joke. I am so sorry. I really am and did not mean to make fun of. It or anything but now I see your point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

CantSitStill said:


> Oh Robsia I was trying to figure out Digs joke. I am so sorry. I really am and did not mean to make fun of. It or anything but now I see your point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's fine CSS. I hate to be a jerk, though - but Robsia, you cannot call yourself part of the Asperger community if you've never even been diagnosed. Just because someone shows "traits", and I use that word loosely, doesn't make it so.

Just because I have a mind like Dr. Spencer Reid on Criminal Minds, doesn't make me a MENSA member even though I'm eidetic. I've never been tested.


----------



## Robsia

CantSitStill said:


> Oh Robsia I was trying to figure out Digs joke. I am so sorry. I really am and did not mean to make fun of. It or anything but now I see your point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's okay. Thanks for your apology.


----------



## Robsia

SomedayDig said:


> I hate to be a jerk, though


Well don't then.



> but Robsia, you cannot call yourself part of the Asperger community if you've never even been diagnosed.


My husband tried that one on me too. I don't have to explain myself to you. I live in my head - you don't. You have no idea how I feel.

Do you think I want to have this? Do you not think I would give everything to be normal? You have no clue how much this whatever it is has ruined my life!!

I am AWAITING a diagnosis. It doesn't mean I don't have it. An illness or condition does not start when it is diagnosed, otherwise there would be no reason to seek a diagnosis, would there?


----------



## CantSitStill

Every one of us has some sort of disability..it could be mental or physical..it could be a small or big disability...I, think everyone is different and unique and we should not be defined by our disabilities but rather just be yourself and forget the labels,..I am CSS that is who I am... may have some anxiety issues but I am me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lister

CantSitStill said:


> Every one of us has some sort of disability..it could be mental or physical..it could be a small or big disability...I, think everyone is different and unique and we should not be defined by our disabilities but rather just be yourself and forget the labels,..I am CSS that is who I am... may have some anxiety issues but I am me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tend to agree CSS. Before my A I by and large lived in the happy delusion that I was a relatively normal, well adjusted chap whose problems were not my fault. 

The process of R has made me look very hard at myself for the first time in my life. What i have found is not pleasant, all sorts of issues built up for a number of reasons over a number of years that led me to turn my relationship with SG toxic. Whether you call them mental health issues or personality disorders is irrelevant, they have caused a huge amount of damage to me and SG. The light at the end of the tunnel is that recognising them and getting some understanding of them means i can do something about them and change who i am and how i relate to other people for the better.


----------



## CantSitStill

Exactly:Lister 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It took a while for it to sink in but my therapist told me over and over to not let my anxiety determine who I am but to take control of my life. In other words I may have a disorder but it does not define who I am. I am a human being created by God just like everyone else. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Anyone been to Charleston, SC? Matt and I are thinking about going there in June and would be interested in any anecdotes, recommendations, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> It took a while for it to sink in but my therapist told me over and over to not let my anxiety determine who I am but to take control of my life. In other words I may have a disorder but it does not define who I am. I am a human being created by God just like everyone else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is good advice.
I'm a residential child care officer, I have 25 years experience of working with children with every kind of syndrome/disorder etc. one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given many many years ago is that before anything else, they are children and they should all be cared for and treated as children first, whatever else they've got going on,, comes second.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Anyone been to Charleston, SC? Matt and I are thinking about going there in June and would be interested in any anecdotes, recommendations, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds positive Mrs M : - )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I agree, they should be treated as individuals. I admit I made the mistake with my last job of not asking the teacher what each kid was labeled as because I wanted to get to know each one for who they are and learnttheir needs as I went along. I have. a feeling that is what might have made me lose my job darn it...I cared too much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

daisygirl 41 said:


> Sounds positive Mrs M : - )
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I think so.  Crossing my fingers and hoping it sticks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChangingMe

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Anyone been to Charleston, SC? Matt and I are thinking about going there in June and would be interested in any anecdotes, recommendations, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't know about Charleston, but DD and I are taking the kids to Myrtle Beach in May. I've heard good things about all of SC. Glad to hear y'all are planning a trip! :smthumbup:


----------



## EI

ChangingMe said:


> Don't know about Charleston, but DD and I are taking the kids to Myrtle Beach in May. I've heard good things about all of SC. Glad to hear y'all are planning a trip! :smthumbup:


CM, I have this overwhelmingly strong urge to bump up DD's thread and ask for a status update because I want people to see your avatar!


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## ChangingMe

"Oh THEO!!!!!!!!!!"


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> This is good advice.
> I'm a residential child care officer, I have 25 years experience of working with children with every kind of syndrome/disorder etc. one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given many many years ago is that before anything else, they are children and they should all be cared for and treated as children first, whatever else they've got going on,, comes second.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You know, DG, the more I learn about you, the more I keep finding reasons to think you're awesome..... :smthumbup:


----------



## old timer

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Anyone been to Charleston, SC? Matt and I are thinking about going there in June and would be interested in any anecdotes, recommendations, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I enjoyed Patriots Point Naval museum and the USS Yorktown - that's a big azz boat. Hyman's Seafood is a must, IMO. Lot of cool bars, too.

(visited my son there a couple of times while he was in USN nuke school)

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

EI said:


> You know, DG, the more I learn about you, the more I keep finding reasons to think you're awesome..... :smthumbup:


Aw thanks E1. What a lovely thing to say
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Howdy, Folks. The Rookies are back in town, and none too soon. Leave for a couple of days and the tone of the R thread turns to mush. WTF is it with all of this TRekkie bidness? I once went to a Trekkie convention in LA and it was a hoot. I haven't laughed like that in forever. I had my picture taken with about 20 Spock impersonators. It was a riot.
Well we just got into the house about an hour and a half ago. We had planned to come home tomorrow or Wedns. But FMIL's procedure was pushed up from Thursday to today because of a cancelation and Sweetie simply could not be away from her Mom when she is "Under the knife". I don't blame her, but I would have liked to stay a few days longer. Key West is the Bomb. WE ate , swam , fished, drank, f**ked and saw the sights . Kelly's was really good the Margharitas were good , the atmosphere was really cool, but I've had better wings. The wings at the Sweetwater Grill in Greektown in Detroit are the best in the business. Light years better than in Buffalo or anyplace else , for that matter. La Trattoria was pretty good as well. The weather was fine and we thawed out pretty good. So what's been happening? other than you all have lost your collective marbles.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Just sat at my desk in work.
My mouse isn't working!!
One more marble gone!

Sounds like you had a wonderful time Rookie. So lovely to hear. You're always so full of Beans and upbeat : - )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

TMI girly talk coming up. Guys look away now - you have been warned.

It’s such a silly thing. My period is six days late based on last month’s start date. I doubt very much that I’m pregnant. I’m on the mini-pill and last month I had a bizarre period that started four days early and was on and off for about two weeks. So I’m not entirely sure when I’m due. I don’t feel remotely pregnant. Anyway, just to be on the safe side, I did a test. It was negative. And yet, even though I really don’t want another baby, having a baby would be a really bad thing for us right now, and I am scheduled to be sterilised any time soon, I was oddly disappointed


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## Rookie4

daisygirl 41 said:


> Just sat at my desk in work.
> My mouse isn't working!!
> One more marble gone!
> 
> Sounds like you had a wonderful time Rookie. So lovely to hear. You're always so full of Beans and upbeat : - )
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes , DG, we did have a good time, and we really needed it. And yes I'm freguently full of beans, but you wouldn't want to be in the same building , if I was.


----------



## EI

Robsia said:


> TMI girly talk coming up. Guys look away now - you have been warned.
> 
> It’s such a silly thing. My period is six days late based on last month’s start date. I doubt very much that I’m pregnant. I’m on the mini-pill and last month I had a bizarre period that started four days early and was on and off for about two weeks. So I’m not entirely sure when I’m due. I don’t feel remotely pregnant. Anyway, just to be on the safe side, I did a test. It was negative. And yet, even though I really don’t want another baby, having a baby would be a really bad thing for us right now, and I am scheduled to be sterilised any time soon, I was oddly disappointed



The EPT tests are quite accurate. I've always had regular cycles and could predict start dates like clockwork unless I was under a huge amount of stress..... Then, for me, all bets are off. I don't know if there is any science behind it, but it could be that the stress you're under, with having a fairly recent D-Day, is throwing your cycle off. Mine have been all over the place for several months. Of course, I'm 48, so THAT is most likely why mine are getting farther apart and fewer between.

I wonder if your disappointment at not being pregnant is not unlike the oddity of hysterical bonding. So often after D-Day, at a time when you'd think intimacy should be the last thing on the mind of the BS and/or the WS, for some inexplicable reason, they can't keep their hands off of each other. I think that might simply be nature's way of trying to "put things back in order." 

It might be a few months before your cycles regulate, but if you are still planning to get sterilized soon and genuinely do not wish to have any more children, then you might want to use something stronger than the mini-pill because "nature" has a way off getting its way and we've seen more than one post D-Day, hysterical bonding baby on TAM!


----------



## SomedayDig

DevastatedDad said:


> *looks at his watch
> 
> Oh crap! Look at the time.
> Well I gotta make a 9 o'clock tee time.


Damn. I gotta go to see my counselor this morning. Golf would be so much nicer. Though, winter rules are in effect, automatic 2 putts really help my score!!


----------



## Robsia

EI said:


> The EPT tests are quite accurate. I've always had regular cycles and could predict start dates like clockwork unless I was under a huge amount of stress..... Then, for me, all bets are off. I don't know if there is any science behind it, but it could be that the stress you're under, with having a fairly recent D-Day, is throwing your cycle off. Mine have been all over the place for several months. Of course, I'm 48, so THAT is most likely why mine are getting farther apart and fewer between.
> 
> I wonder if your disappointment at not being pregnant is not unlike the oddity of hysterical bonding. So often after D-Day, at a time when you'd think intimacy should be the last thing on the mind of the BS and/or the WS, for some inexplicable reason, they can't keep their hands off of each other. I think that might simply be nature's way of trying to "put things back in order."
> 
> It might be a few months before your cycles regulate, but if you are still planning to get sterilized soon and genuinely do not wish to have any more children, then you might want to use something stronger than the mini-pill because "nature" has a way off getting its way and we've seen more than one post D-Day, hysterical bonding baby on TAM!


I did wonder if it might be the stress. I've been on the pill since last October and it's always been only 3-4 days of very light spotting, so last month was unusual.

The whole hysterical bonding thing is odd though. The Tuesday after D-day I was at the STD clinic getting tested and being offered a pack of free condoms, telling the nurse hysterically how I could never imagine him touching me again, and three days later I was jumping on him. I tend to cry afterwards though 

I should be getting a date through for my sterilisation very soon - I've been waiting since October. It's free on the NHS, but you do have to wait. I've had my pre-surgical triage though so it should be soon.


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## CantSitStill

Uggg well after effort of trying to reply about stress and peroiods and about how maybe you felt sad because you were preparinf you mind incase you were pregnant and so on I lost my long post to you Robsia...ugg not used to this phone. I give up oyoyoy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

See I just can'ttype a post without errors because I can'tseewhat I am typing. Grrr
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Maybe I need tapatalk
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

This place is getting too quiet!!! Wake up people!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

Rookie has jet lag and is asleep, lol


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## ChangingMe

Hello gang! I took the day off to spend it with our daughter. She wore me out: bowling, lunch, painting pottery, ice cream, and a toy. It was a fun day. Now we are getting ready for our son's t-ball game, then DD and I are going to paint after the kids go to bed. We've been in this house a year and a half, and some of the walls are still a nasty yellowish color. Time for it to go!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

ChangingMe said:


> Hello gang! I took the day off to spend it with our daughter. She wore me out: bowling, lunch, painting pottery, ice cream, and a toy. It was a fun day. Now we are getting ready for our son's t-ball game, then DD and I are going to paint after the kids go to bed. We've been in this house a year and a half, and some of the walls are still a nasty yellowish color. Time for it to go!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have fun,.sounds like you had
a full day as it is lol watch out for the cat!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

old timer said:


> Rookie has jet lag and is asleep, lol


Woke up. Full of piss and vinegar. CM, I really like to house paint. It's relaxing and gives you a sense of accomplishment. Sweetie and I are going to do a little wallpapering next week. My study hasn't been papered or painted in about a million years and needs a new look.


----------



## B1

Approaching 11 months out from Dday..this month could have some serious triggers for me but it's not getting me too much. I had one bad incident the other day. With Dday #2 approaching and Dday #1 hitting this month it could be a pressure cooker for me, though it doesn't seem so right now. 

EI seems to be struggeling FAR more than I am right now. She has been blah a lot, this morning seemed a little better though. I hope it's a good sign. We have so many other things going on right now to worry about and I know she needs to focus on those things, but the A seems to take priority with me and then she focuses on that, worries about that. 

But at the same time these other things MUST be addressed also. I am trying so hard to ignore, push back the A thinking..it's not easy, it so wants to be in the front of my mind ALL the time. It's frustrating!

We have a life going on around us and we need to be in it. 

We must get involved again with friends, church etc.

I am doing good this morning, I know this post may sound negative but it's not, I'm just venting some concerns. I love EI, I worry about her and want her healthy. When she's mentally healthy she can move mountains, she's flat out amazing and I love her so much. 

It's been a little quiet here.. I hope that's a good sign?


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## CantSitStill

You two will get through this. It is so dang hard but you'll make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lister

B1 said:


> Approaching 11 months out from Dday..this month could have some serious triggers for me but it's not getting me too much. I had one bad incident the other day. With Dday #2 approaching and Dday #1 hitting this month it could be a pressure cooker for me, though it doesn't seem so right now.
> 
> EI seems to be struggeling FAR more than I am right now. She has been blah a lot, this morning seemed a little better though. I hope it's a good sign. We have so many other things going on right now to worry about and I know she needs to focus on those things, but the A seems to take priority with me and then she focuses on that, worries about that.
> 
> But at the same time these other things MUST be addressed also. I am trying so hard to ignore, push back the A thinking..it's not easy, it so wants to be in the front of my mind ALL the time. It's frustrating!
> 
> We have a life going on around us and we need to be in it.
> 
> We must get involved again with friends, church etc.
> 
> I am doing good this morning, I know this post may sound negative but it's not, I'm just venting some concerns. I love EI, I worry about her and want her healthy. When she's mentally healthy she can move mountains, she's flat out amazing and I love her so much.
> 
> It's been a little quiet here.. I hope that's a good sign?


Hi B1, we are approaching one year on from D Day too, next Monday 22nd April. I am worried too about this and the effect it will have on us both, triggers etc. We have both taken the day off work and planned to spend time with the family, make it a family day doing stuff, playing games etc. However it looks as if that won't happen as the kids have other commitments and we don't want to tell them why we want to spend that time with them on that particular day and put pressure on them. 

Does anyone out there have any suggestions as to how best to cope with such a potentially traumatic time? Lots of thoughts ... going out somewhere for the day, meal out at night, romantic night in etc but any thoughts welcome.


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## Mrs_Mathias

We are almost 1 year out from the start of my PA. Matt and I had a really great weekend together, but the affair has really been weighing on his mind the past couple of days. I am incredibly hopeful and grateful though that he has managed to just talk with me about his struggles and pain, without unleashing a lot of anger Monday or yesterday, it's really been a marked change from our interactions in the past on difficult days.

We've been talking about taking a trip together in June, but I'm afraid to do more than just dream/pretend plan it since I have no idea how hard the next months are going to be on him. I want to help and support him, but sometimes it feels like something that just has to be endured, that once we get through this first year, the dates won't have as much power over us? At least, that's what I hope. I hope that if we can continue to communicate lovingly and compassionately with each other and show sensitivity to how each day may affect us that we can navigate these rough waters ahead. We both have had difficult triggers over the last two days, and I am frightened of what's ahead and whether we will survive it.

Sending strength and positive energy to everyone as we continue forward through each day.


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## CantSitStill

Well you need to make a new memory for that day. Something like pack up a picnic lunch and head to the park if it'sa nice day. Go to a concert or the movies. c
Calvin and I like to play Wii Sports together. Take a stroll through the mall. Take a drive somewhere. Go to the shelter and maybe get a new pet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

We turned on some music and cooked spaghetti together 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

I, for one, was not fully prepared for the difficulty of the 1-year anniversary of D-Day. I triggered pretty hard in the days leading up to and following our 1-year. Some of it was triggering, and some of it was just stinking thinking. It put me in a funk, got me thinking negatively etc.

But looking back, it was also a major turning point for us and a moment of significant growth and healing for me. Didn't feel like it at the time, but I got there. I have seen much of my struggles and thinking played out, and ultimately conquered, in Calvin recently. And ironically, Calvin was at the year mark too. 

My big area of negative thinking was ultimately motivated by fear of being hurt again, and a desire to "protect myself". In some ways, I think I was unconsciously pressure testing our marriage, and my wife's commitment to our R. I was asking a lot of hurtful questions, pulling away emotionally, talking about how uncertain I was about our future. We had some pretty heated discussions. But as my wife stayed patient and kept her focus, I began to look at why I was behaving this way and having these thoughts. I really can't over emphasize the need to pause and understand the motivation behind our actions and thinking in these moments of self-created crisis.

So my advice to all of those nearing the 1-year mark: be proactive. Talk about what aprehensions you have leading up to it. Try to schedule some time that is just the two of you, not always in a public setting. Be ready for an increase in the roller coaster effect. But try to keep your perspective. Try to understand your ultimate motivation if you start feeling/behaving differently. Ask yourself questions like "Why am I having these thoughts? Has my former WW changed her behavior? Have I learned something new? Or is the only thing that has changed my thinking/state of mind?". 

Remember, adversity is the mother of personal growth. Push through it, together.


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Well you need to make a new memory for that day. Something like pack up a picnic lunch and head to the park if it'sa nice day. Go to a concert or the movies. c
> Calvin and I like to play Wii Sports together. Take a stroll through the mall. Take a drive somewhere. *Go to the shelter and maybe get a new pet.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


B1, since you "liked" this post from CSS, does that mean that I can go to the animal shelter and rescue a dog? Did you know that we're down to one dog and one cat, now? :scratchhead: That's way down from when we had 3 dogs, a cat and a fish. BTW..... Jo-Jo's fish died, too... 

And, no, I won't settle for another Beta fish...  You know that aside from you and our children that my heart goes pitter-patter for paws!  We could get an older dog that is already housebroken and is well behaved and doesn't chew on things...  The kids are grown........ they're hardly ever home (said in my most whiny voice ever ) *PUHLEEEEZE.*....


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## CantSitStill

Oops I meant neverhappentome. Good post...got names mixed up...just tried to edit that and it deleted my whole post..ugg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Having trouble with this phone anyway B1 a dog or kittie cat would make EI feel better. Pets are so sweet and lovable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

CantSitStill said:


> Oops I meant neverhappentome. Good post...got names mixed up...just tried to edit that and it deleted my whole post..ugg
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Ugg I quit I can't post anything rifht today tired of typing things and losing them before I post
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

I have some background in the area of grief, and have learned more than I ever wanted to about trauma. Both of these things are involved in what happens to a BS. Unfortunately, some of the reactions that we have can continue to erupt for a very long time, and that is quite normal.

One piece of advice that is often given to grieving folks is to be prepared for and expect that a "wave" of grief may come up from behind at any time, perhaps on an anniversary of some kind but perhaps at some unexpected moment, and it could be many months out from the date of the loss (in our case, D-Day). Even years.

Just as a wave of water from behind can knock you off your feet if it's big enough, a wave of grief can be a poweful, shocking thing. A little one is one thing, but those biggies are something else. It's important to be aware that they can come again. Holding someone's hand while you're standing in the surf makes it less likely you'll get knocked down. But it's just good to be aware of those waves.


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## old timer

EI said:


> And, no, I won't settle for another Beta fish...


They say you wimmen prefer the Alphas...



.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Oh man, don't get Dig started . . . :rofl:


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## SomedayDig

old timer said:


> They say you wimmen prefer the Alphas...
> 
> 
> 
> .


Alpha fish?!! You're outta your mind. You think that Athol has any idea of the intricacies of fish brains?! You think cuz he has a blog that makes him some sort of picean authority?!!

You're f'ng crazy with this alpha talk!!!




:rofl:

i can't keep a straight face any more....:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## CantSitStill

ImagineB1 the look on EI's face if you came home with a new dog on your dreaded DDay. It would bring joy back into your household 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

So sorry we won't get the chance to see you two this weekend but I hope you understandthere really isn'tthe enough time...we hope to plan on it againtho soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

EI said:


> And, no, I won't settle for another Beta fish...





old timer said:


> They say you wimmen prefer the Alphas...


Oh my Hell, there was NO pun intended with that!  I didn't even think about the word "Beta." We have had Beta fish for years and years. Our special needs son loves them. When one dies, I don't tell him, I just get another one.  Yeah, yeah, I know.... y'all see a pattern here. 

Oh, and CSS, I won't be getting a new dog.... as much as I'd loooooooove to have one, I think that B1 would send me, our cat, our dog, and any new dog packing...... He's had his fill of pets.... for a while! 

I was just aggravating him!


----------



## CantSitStill

Lol EI you really think your .special needs son don't know?? I bet he don't want you to know that he knows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Kitty cats pretty much take care of themselves...get her a kitten B1!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

EI how's the weather there?? I hear it's gonna storm all weekend. : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> So sorry we won't get the chance to see you two this weekend but I hope you understandthere really isn'tthe enough time...we hope to plan on it againtho soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We might
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Lol EI you really think your .special needs son don't know?? I bet he don't want you to know that he knows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





CantSitStill said:


> EI how's the weather there?? I hear it's gonna storm all weekend. : (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Louisville, KY weather forecast*

Thursday, 84 degrees, possible rain
Friday, 54 degrees, rain
Saturday, 61 degrees, sunny
Sunday, 66 degrees, sunny
Monday, 72 degrees, sunny

About the fish..... He doesn't know unless I tell him.....


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## bfree

EI said:


> B1, since you "liked" this post from CSS, does that mean that I can go to the animal shelter and rescue a dog? Did you know that we're down to one dog and one cat, now? :scratchhead: That's way down from when we had 3 dogs, a cat and a fish. BTW..... Jo-Jo's fish died, too...
> 
> And, no, I won't settle for another Beta fish...  You know that aside from you and our children that my heart goes pitter-patter for paws!  We could get an older dog that is already housebroken and is well behaved and doesn't chew on things...  The kids are grown........ they're hardly ever home (said in my most whiny voice ever ) *PUHLEEEEZE.*....


EI,

A couple of years ago the Mrs and I decided to get a dog. I got in touch with an organization that takes dogs from the south and brings them north for adoption. Apparently there are many dog shelters that gas unwanted dogs in a large room as opposed to what I consider a more humane method of using an injection that puts them to sleep. Anywat we adopted a beatiful brindle boxer that was two years old. He had a rough life before we got him but he was as good as gold since the day we brought him home. He's still my big baby and follows me everywhere I go. He's always at my side or lying at my feet. Adopting an adult pet is a wonderful way to extend love to a wayward pup or kitty.


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## CantSitStill

Befree I love Bo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

CantSitStill said:


> Befree I love Bo
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love Boxers... I grew up with one and she was a very loyal dog and so fun to play with...when I came home from school she would gently take my hand with her mouth and. Lead me to the back door . They don't live long
tho tho. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

There is always a problem when I try to post on this thread...dang it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Anyway I heard strong winds and pouring rain tomorrowwhe we travel..oy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

bfree said:


> EI,
> 
> A couple of years ago the Mrs and I decided to get a dog. I got in touch with an organization that takes dogs from the south and brings them north for adoption. Apparently there are many dog shelters that gas unwanted dogs in a large room as opposed to what I consider a more humane method of using an injection that puts them to sleep. Anywat we adopted a beatiful brindle boxer that was two years old. He had a rough life before we got him but he was as good as gold since the day we brought him home. He's still my big baby and follows me everywhere I go. He's always at my side or lying at my feet. Adopting an adult pet is a wonderful way to extend love to a wayward pup or kitty.


B1 and I recently helped transport dogs for the Mobile Mutts Transportation team. We picked them up, here, in Louisville and transported them to Indiana. They, actually, begin their journey in Tennessee and some traveled to rescues as far as Minnesota. I am a huge animal lover. I use my Facebook page to bring awareness to animals in shelters and rescues in every way that I possibly can. 

Every year around Christmas, when the kids were younger, we would go to the pet store and buy food, toys, treats and other essentials and donate them to the Kentucky Humane Society. All of the kids got to help pick out the items. When we got there we made sure that we spent some time petting every single dog and cat that was awaiting adoption. Every single one. I made Christmas shopping easy for B1...... I just asked that he make a donation to the humane society in my name. We've donated many Kuranda dog beds to them, as well, so that they wouldn't have to lay on the cold concrete floor. That's, particularly, hard on the larger and older dogs. 

Our youngest son had to do 30 community service hours at his high school as a requirement for graduation. He chose to do his at the humane society. This year, as a senior, his elective is as a peer tutor for students with special needs. His teacher says he has a gift when it comes to working with them. He had never mentioned to her that he has a brother with special needs. If I accomplish nothing else in this lifetime, I hope I've raised my children to have compassion and mercy for those less fortunate. 

When the kids got older and began going their separate ways, i.e., our daughter got married, our oldest son moved into his own apartment, the younger boys have school and their part-time jobs...... the annual trips to KHS eventually came to an end. I recently mentioned to our oldest son how much I missed our tradition. He said, "Mom, girlfriend and I do that every year." I didn't know! But, it made my heart so happy. 

Oh well, I love children and animals and B1........ And, B1 loves me..... So he lets me have all of them........ 

P.S. I love you, B1! Thank you for indulging me in all of my loves! <3


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## CantSitStill

It's so cool that without even e realizing it you passed on good rituals and good service to your children. It's so cool to see your child doing good things for others. Makes you feel so proud. That'. That's what parenting is all about. Teaching them to live a righteous life . 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

EI, that's really awesome. I donate food, blankets and other items to our local shelter and I volunteer there once a week walking the dogs and watching the cats in the playroom. It really makes you feel good to help these animals that depend on us for so much. Bless you and all your family.


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## EI

:lol:


CantSitStill said:


> It's so cool that without even e realizing it you passed on good rituals and good service to your children. It's so cool to see your child doing good things for others. Makes you feel so proud. That'. That's what parenting is all about. Teaching them to live a righteous life .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, right up until I made all of our lives FUBAR.....


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> EI, that's really awesome. I donate food, blankets and other items to our local shelter and I volunteer there once a week walking the dogs and watching the cats in the playroom. It really makes you feel good to help these animals that depend on us for so much. Bless you and all your family.


Well, of course you do!  I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The people who post on this thread are nothing short of amazing. I am constantly amazed by each and every one of you. You all have been a real and very tangible blessing in our lives. 

bfree, you're such an awesome guy! I'm so glad you're a part of our thread! :smthumbup:


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

EI - no way I am letting you off on that one. Yes, your children saw how a bad decision can create a bit of FUBAR.

But you also showed them how to step up, take responsibility and work to correct your mistakes. You taught them that we are not defined by any one decision or mistake in our lives. 

You taught them that love is patient, forgiving and bigger than any one shortcoming. Life isn't always perfect or pretty, but that doesn't ean its ok to run and hide. 

You taught them good things as well, even in the midst of things being FUBAR.


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## CantSitStill

Yes she taught her children how to be good citizens and how to pay it forward. You EI have been a good role model for them...stop focusing on that thing you hate that you did. Because you have owned it and even got that book HisNeedsHerNeeds for your daughter...that says that you truly want them to learn from what you did. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Yes I hyper focusedon the movie I was watching and tried to grab the remote to pause it when he was tryingto kiss me and I am PISSED off at myself...GRR. what is my problem??? I should by now not be doing these bad habits! Sigh...ok well now I am glad the issue has been addressed because now I will pay better attention to what I'm doing...but I am still real mad at myself. Calvin deserves my full attention as he always gives me his. I am not happy with myself about this but must remember to be more attentive tword him from now on. Yes this might seem like a little thing to a lot of you but it's not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> EI - no way I am letting you off on that one. Yes, your children saw how a bad decision can create a bit of FUBAR.
> 
> But you also showed them how to step up, take responsibility and work to correct your mistakes. You taught them that we are not defined by any one decision or mistake in our lives.
> 
> You taught them that love is patient, forgiving and bigger than any one shortcoming. Life isn't always perfect or pretty, but that doesn't ean its ok to run and hide.
> 
> You taught them good things as well, even in the midst of things being FUBAR.



Thank you for saying that. It's easy for me to believe everything you said..... about anyone else. I have said similar words to others in my position and I genuinely meant them. I just wish that I wasn't the one person in my husband and in my children's lives who let them down. I feel like it's my job to protect them from those who would do them harm. I'm supposed to be their shelter from the storm. But, of all of the hurts in this life that they have ever experienced..... this is the one that hurt them the most. It went against everything that I have ever stood for.... ever taught them, ever believed. I hate it...... 

But, with all of that, I feel that to wallow in self pity would be self-indulgent and I owe them so much more than that. I have to be better, do better..... I have so much to make up for. They deserved better than that. I don't know how I let my life get so far off track and for such a long time. Sometimes, I feel like I stepped out of the life I was supposed to be living a very long time ago. I want it back, but THAT life has passed me by. All I can do now is try to be the best wife and mother that I can possibly be today and every day going forward. 

Hopefully, one day, "it" won't be the first thing that B1 thinks about when he wakes up in the morning and the last thing he thinks about before going to bed every night. This has been a hard week. Friday will be the "anniversary" of D-Day # 1.

On a brighter note, our youngest son has his Senior Prom on Friday night and his 18th Birthday on Sunday! Saturday is Thunder Over Louisville, a huge pre-Derby event, so there will be a lot of family around and a lot of celebrating this weekend. Hopefully, some new, happy memories will help make things a bit easier for B1.... if that's even possible.

I do try to make family celebrations special! It's something that brings me a great deal of joy and happiness!


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Yes I hyper focusedon the movie I was watching and tried to grab the remote to pause it when he was tryingto kiss me and I am PISSED off at myself...GRR. what is my problem??? I should by now not be doing these bad habits! Sigh...ok well now I am glad the issue has been addressed because now I will pay better attention to what I'm doing...but I am still real mad at myself. Calvin deserves my full attention as he always gives me his. I am not happy with myself about this but must remember to be more attentive tword him from now on. Yes this might seem like a little thing to a lot of you but it's not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When I first married my wife I had a bad habit of ignoring her when I was driving. She would be talking but I just tuned her out. I'm not really sure why but I did and it used to drive her crazy. She would tell me something and later when something got mixed up she would tell me that she already told me but of course it was when I was driving and I never heard her. I had to train myself to listen to her at all times because frankly it wasn't fair for her to believe she and I discussed something when in reality it was just her having a one sided conversation. Well I trained myself a little too well because now when I'm driving I'll pay so much attention to her when she's talking that I'll routinely forget where we are going and miss the exit. Now she makes out like she gets mad at me for all the times I have to double back and get on the right road again. But secretly I know she loves it that she has my undivided attention to the exclusion of all else. Sometimes you just have to train your brain to follow new patterns of behavior even if it doesn't seem natural and even if it causes complications.


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## bfree

EI, your life has not passed you by at all. Sometimes people wander off the path that life has carved out for them. And that's not always a bad thing. Its when we trudge through the thickets and brambles that we sometimes learn to appreciate the level ground and fields of flowers that grow in our gardens. Even a rose, as beautiful and fragrant as it is has thorns to remind us that there is a price to be paid for all its splendor. Most successes are born from failure and the the most painful experiences are often the most educational.

Where you are right now is exactly where you should be.


@}--^--^--


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## EI

bfree said:


> EI, your life has not passed you by at all. Sometimes people wander off the path that life has carved out for them. And that's not always a bad thing. Its when we trudge through the thickets and brambles that we sometimes learn to appreciate the level ground and fields of flowers that grow in our gardens. Even a rose, as beautiful and fragrant as it is has thorns to remind us that there is a price to be paid for all its splendor. Most successes are born from failure and the the most painful experiences are often the most educational.
> 
> Where you are right now is exactly where you should be.
> 
> 
> @}--^--^--



Thank you, bfree.


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## Mr Blunt

> Quote of Lister
> Does anyone out there have any suggestions as to how best to cope with such a potentially traumatic time?


I would trigger when:
I went to the dairy queen, went to the local Circle K convenient store, to the college, Down ******* Ave where the apartment was, to one of the city parks, when I heard certain phrases, when I heard someone mention a name that happened to be a common name and was his name, the month of May was bad, the month of September was bad, etc etc

*Shyt, I was a prisoner!!!*


I would get mad and finally tell myself “that nasty affair is not going to ruin so many things that are good”

It took me longer than a year but I made a point of going to that Circle K to get my coffee almost very morning, I went to that park and made myself enjoy the natural beauty and tell my self that that nasty affair is not going to ruin one of my favorite parks, May is a very good month and so good for gardening and landscaping (my hobby) so screw the A; not going to ruin my gardening, Ok so September is not a very good month in my area of the southwest, too dam hot. However, what really got me going was I was not about to let that crappy betrayal stop me from getting my blizzards, hot fudge Sundays, and banana splits at the Dairy Queen, NO WAY!

I have separated the places, names, and days/months from the CaCa of the A. Today I enjoy that Circle K, the park, gardening, the month of May, and DAIRY QUEEN!!!

*So you can get mad, go right at the trigger, confront it, and then use mind over emotions to kick the triggers in the AZZ*. It did take me longer than a year but you can use my method and it will eventually work. If I remember right Rookie and Ms Rookie faced a powerful trigger in the first months of R and Rookie grabbed his wife who was about to bolt and went right into that Steak House and they had a good time. That is very ballsey but I like the way Rookie kicked that trigger right in the cajones! *The places, names, months, etc are to be enjoyed and I am not going to let the A have any more victories*.


*One more very important thing. The WS’s actions being like EI, CM, and Rookie’s wife (and some others here on TAM) for more than a year was a HUGE help*. For those that their WS did the opposite of EI, CM, and Rookie’s wife I have no advice. I have not traveled that road.

The first year is the toughest but it gets better every year until you finally get to where you want a Dairy Queen or a good steak!

Now come to think of it, I think I will go to that Dairy Queen and get me a blizzard; or should I get a hot fudge Sunday, or a banana split? I know I will get all three!


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> EI, your life has not passed you by at all. Sometimes people wander off the path that life has carved out for them. And that's not always a bad thing. Its when we trudge through the thickets and brambles that we sometimes learn to appreciate the level ground and fields of flowers that grow in our gardens. Even a rose, as beautiful and fragrant as it is has thorns to remind us that there is a price to be paid for all its splendor. Most successes are born from failure and the the most painful experiences are often the most educational.
> 
> Where you are right now is exactly where you should be.
> 
> 
> @}--^--^--


I disagree. I think that EI and my Sweetie should have to wear a giant letter 'A' on their clothes........for AMAZING!!!:yay:


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## Robsia

I KWIM about the triggers. I know that my WH took his OW to a Toby Carvery for one date, they stayed at a Premier Inn a couple of times, another time they went to a cinema, and then to Frankie and Benny's afterwards, another time he took her to the circus (he never took me to the frigging circus).

Now, apart from the circus, these were not in my home town, but I have been triggering every time I see a Toby Carvery or a Frankie and Benny's. My dd has an app on her phone which has sound effects. One of them is circus music. I had to ask her to turn it off.

But on Saturday guess what - we are going to the cinema and then to Frankie and Benny's afterward. I'm a bit freaked about it, but I came to the same conclusion as Mr Blunt did - I can't let this dictate my life. I'm not going to be scared of going to places because of the A.

Yes, it reminds me. Yes, I will trigger a bit. But I'm stronger than that. I'm not going to cower at home scared to go anywhere in case something reminds me of the A. I'm going to own my own damn life.

So there!


----------



## Robsia

I have an issue at the moment I'd like some advice on. One thing we decided was that we would have regular weekly date nights, paid for by him so we could make some time for us, without my kids.

All has been fine so far, but last week he started saying that he was a bit short of cash. He is paying for all the counselling (which hasn't happened yet) so, trying to be understanding, I suggested that maybe we didn't have to do date nights every week, given that the aim is more to spend time together than go out splashing the cash.

Then, yesterday, I went round to the house and saw a big flashy iPhone speaker in the corner of the living room which he reckoned he got a mega deal on.

I just found it on amazon and, while it was reduced, it still cost him about £300.

I now feel that making me feel special is lower on his list of priorities than buying himself a new toy.

How can I get this across to him without making it sound like I am a) trying to tell him how he can spend his money and b) making it seem like I'm only after his cash.

Bear in mind that I and my children are struggling for money at the moment. I work, but also claim top-up benefits and I'm actually quite scared as to whether I will have enough money coming in to cope, so I feel a bit miffed that he can so easily drop £300 on a new toy when I'm not sure I can pay my bills.

Am I being unreasonable?


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## hopefulgirl

As you've suggested elsewhere, we may be married to the same man...

At least my husband finally had some insight in this regard, and recently used the phrase "self-medicate" when it comes to spending on his hobbies. Granted, he's only slowed down, not stopped spending entirely. Call it mild depression as part of his anxiety or whatever, it's like he's trying to fill some empty place with all this stuff. It hasn't worked, and he keeps spending, but at least he's still in IC and still working on getting better. 

I look at it this way: I want him to work on us, but he has to work on himself too. And I have to have limited expectations re how much he can give to our reconciliation as long as he's still kind of a work in progress himself. Yes, we're all a work in progress, but some of us more than others.

His health has been a factor too; nothing serious currently, but he has had serious health issues that we have to keep alert about. So that's in there too.

Anyway, no, you're not being unreasonable. But when these guys spend money on this stuff, it's more like food to them. They HAVE to have it, and don't see it like we do. To try to tell them it's frivolous is a conversation that may be premature at this point in their own path to recovery. Your husband's anger management is not something that can be dealt with in a matter of days, so that's a long path too - he's got a lot of issues to work on, and he, like my husband, may be clinging to this stuff for all the wrong reasons. I doubt he'll get it if you try to explain why he "should" spend his money on you instead.


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## joe kidd

CantSitStill said:


> Kitty cats pretty much take care of themselves...get her a kitten B1!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never saw one cat ever clean it's own litter box. :rofl:
We picked up a recuse cat yesterday. 4 yr old Maine ****.


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## calvin

Good day to go on a road trip,windy as hell,rain coming down in buckets,tornado warning and flooding.
My kind of weather
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

EI said:


> Thank you for saying that. It's easy for me to believe everything you said..... about anyone else. I have said similar words to others in my position and I genuinely meant them. I just wish that I wasn't the one person in my husband and in my children's lives who let them down. I feel like it's my job to protect them from those who would do them harm. I'm supposed to be their shelter from the storm. But, of all of the hurts in this life that they have ever experienced..... this is the one that hurt them the most. It went against everything that I have ever stood for.... ever taught them, ever believed. I hate it......
> 
> But, with all of that, I feel that to wallow in self pity would be self-indulgent and I owe them so much more than that. I have to be better, do better..... I have so much to make up for. They deserved better than that. I don't know how I let my life get so far off track and for such a long time. Sometimes, I feel like I stepped out of the life I was supposed to be living a very long time ago. I want it back, but THAT life has passed me by. All I can do now is try to be the best wife and mother that I can possibly be today and every day going forward.
> 
> Hopefully, one day, "it" won't be the first thing that B1 thinks about when he wakes up in the morning and the last thing he thinks about before going to bed every night. This has been a hard week. Friday will be the "anniversary" of D-Day # 1.
> 
> On a brighter note, our youngest son has his Senior Prom on Friday night and his 18th Birthday on Sunday! Saturday is Thunder Over Louisville, a huge pre-Derby event, so there will be a lot of family around and a lot of celebrating this weekend. Hopefully, some new, happy memories will help make things a bit easier for B1.... if that's even possible.
> 
> I do try to make family celebrations special! It's something that brings me a great deal of joy and happiness!


EI, where did that sadness come from?? Don't be too hard on yourself, no one gains anything from that.

I read this in an article about how to learn from your mistakes (modified to suit the purpose):
1. Acknowledge your error and fault - check
2. Apologize and make amends if anyone was hurt as a result of your wrongdoing - check
3. Identify the root cause for your actions at the deepest possible level within you - check
4. Identify how you can make sure you won't make the same mistake again, make a plan - check
5. Implement plan - check
6. .... and forgive yourself... uhmmm??

Now, as far as I can tell, you have outperformed most wrongdoers on each and every level, besides no. 6. 
B1 wants you to forgive yourself, from what I read.

I'm sorry to say that I don't know you and B1 better than I do from all these posts and messages, but I know that you're a wonderfull person, and I'm quite sure, that you know all this already (otherwise you wouldn't have been this far by now) - so I'll just kindly remind you - BE NICE TO YOURSELF


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## old timer

joe kidd said:


> Never saw one cat ever clean it's own litter box. :rofl:
> We picked up a recuse cat yesterday. 4 yr old Maine ****.


No pictures means it didn't happen, joe. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

cpacan said:


> EI, where did that sadness come from?? Don't be too hard on yourself, no one gains anything from that.
> 
> I read this in an article about how to learn from your mistakes (modified to suit the purpose):
> 1. Acknowledge your error and fault - check
> 2. Apologize and make amends if anyone was hurt as a result of your wrongdoing - check
> 3. Identify the root cause for your actions at the deepest possible level within you - check
> 4. Identify how you can make sure you won't make the same mistake again, make a plan - check
> 5. Implement plan - check
> 6. .... and forgive yourself... uhmmm??
> 
> Now, as far as I can tell, you have outperformed most wrongdoers on each and every level, besides no. 6.
> B1 wants you to forgive yourself, from what I read.
> 
> I'm sorry to say that I don't know you and B1 better than I do from all these posts and messages, but I know that you're a wonderfull person, and I'm quite sure, that you know all this already (otherwise you wouldn't have been this far by now) - so I'll just kindly remind you - BE NICE TO YOURSELF


This, 100%.


NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> EI - no way I am letting you off on that one. Yes, your children saw how a bad decision can create a bit of FUBAR.
> 
> But you also showed them how to step up, take responsibility and work to correct your mistakes. You taught them that we are not defined by any one decision or mistake in our lives.
> 
> You taught them that love is patient, forgiving and bigger than any one shortcoming. Life isn't always perfect or pretty, but that doesn't ean its ok to run and hide.
> 
> You taught them good things as well, even in the midst of things being FUBAR.


And this.
I'd also like to add B1 in the teacher role about ownership of mistakes, forgiveness, strenght, determination... great life lessons.
Our childrens don't know. My oldest suspected, somehow "knows", one day she will open up and talk about it. I'm very relieved we are going to teach her the same lessons E1 and B1 are teaching.


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## Rookie4

I want to say a few things about Triggers. First, they are going to happen, so it's no use trying to avoid them. Second, they , most likely, will happen when you are least able to deal with them. Third, they can make or break a reconciliation.
The way I have dealt with them, is to immediately go into pro-active mode. IDK if any of you realized this, but the hospital that my FMIL was in, was the same hospital that Sweetie and Brad worked together at, during their affair. That is one of the many reasons why Sweetie had her minor meltdown. She was worried about her Mom and worried about how being there would trigger both of us. She was a basketcase of nerves and cried virtually nonstop. There was only one thing to do. After calming Sweetie, I went to the Admin. offices, and gave a considerable donation to the Hospital Building and Maintenance fund. I basically took charge of the whole situation , to the extent that most of her family thought I was being a real bastard. But, Sweetie thought I was a hero, and almost immediately felt better. Which was the whole idea. 
Like anything involved with the affair. Restaurants they went to, places they visited, etc. I have made it a point to go there and take them over and make them mine. I have even thought about buying the appartment building where Brad lived and making his apartment into a laundary room. In all of this, my guiding principle, is that triggers are not going to rule my life and I am going to take everything about the affair and own it. You know what? The look in Sweetie's eyes whenever I do this, makes it all worthwhile. I know she adores me, and that, my friends, is the payoff.
D-day anniversaries are actually one of the easiest triggers to deal with, because you know they are coming and can prepare for them. I've taken every anniversary, and have done something special that turns the trigger into a blessing. I'm just a dumbass hillbilly, but what I do , y'all can do. It takes only the desire to make it happen.


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## Mr Blunt

> By Rookie
> Like anything involved with the affair. Restaurants they went to, places they visited, etc. I have made it a point to go there and take them over and make them mine. I have even thought about buying the appartment building where Brad lived and making his apartment into a laundary room. In all of this, my guiding principle, is that triggers are not going to rule my life and I am going to take everything about the affair and own it. You know what? The look in Sweetie's eyes whenever I do this, makes it all worthwhile. I know she adores me, and that, my friends, is the payoff.
> 
> D-day anniversaries are actually one of the easiest triggers to deal with, because you know they are coming and can prepare for them. I've taken every anniversary, and have done something special that turns the trigger into a blessing. I'm just a dumbass hillbilly, but what I do , y'all can do. It takes only the desire to make it happen.


*THAT’S THE TICKET!!!!!*

Now that is what I was trying to say in my earlier post when I said:


> “So you can get mad, go right at the trigger, confront it, and then use mind over emotions to kick the triggers in the AZZ.”


*I also want to reiterate that Mrs. Rookie’s actions for two years was OUTSTANDING* and gave the fighting hillbilly even more strength to KICK Trigger’s AZZ. I am talking about all the triggers that come from an affair not Roy Roger’s horse; although I would not doubt that Rookie could also kick Roy Roger’s horse Trigger AZZ too!

Rookie and Mrs Rookie make a very powerful team that have shown how you can slay the dragon. Even without all his toes Rookie can still kick a lot of AZZ!

*WE need more hillbillys in this world.*


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## Rookie4

And another thing. I see constantly on this thread how posters say that they are "fighting for their marriage". This is ridiculous. What good is any marriage without the love and trust it is built on? If you're going to fight for anything, fight for your love, fight for your desire, fight to renew your trust. Marriages come and go. But true love and trust and desire are constants in a good relationship. 
My marriage is over and dead. My wife was a cheater. My NEW relationship is wonderful and my Sweetie is loving, passionate and completely true to me. This is because we didn't try to repair the old car, we rebuilt it from the ground , up.


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## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> *THAT’S THE TICKET!!!!!*
> 
> Now that is what I was trying to say in my earlier post when I said:
> 
> 
> *I also want to reiterate that Mrs. Rookie’s actions for two years was OUTSTANDING* and gave the fighting hillbilly even more strength to KICK Trigger’s AZZ. I am talking about all the triggers that come from an affair not Roy Roger’s horse; although I would not doubt that Rookie could also kick Roy Roger’s horse Trigger AZZ too!
> 
> Rookie and Mrs Rookie make a very powerful team that have shown how you can slay the dragon. Even without all his toes Rookie can still kick a lot of AZZ!
> 
> *WE need more hillbillys in this world.*


All in all, I would prefer to do any a**-kicking with toes than without. I'm like a car that has a flat tire on one side, I always seem to veer to the left.:rofl: Oh, and Somedaydig, I AM the Alpha fish in my pond. LOL OLd Timer, this is what I mean about piss and vinegar.


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## Rookie4

The preceding was a non-profit message. We now return you to your regularily scheduled programing.


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## SomedayDig

I'm a Pisces.

That is all.


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## margrace

hi everyone:

i'm in the middle of my d-day 2 anniversary week and i would like to say that i am doing great and enthusiastically kicking its butt like some of you.... but i'm not. i'm finding it very very hard. 

on the positive side of things, my H has gained a lot of insight and is remorseful. i can see that partly by seeing how different it is from the first 9 months of pseudo-R, almost-R, working-up-to-R. now he only shows openness when i need to talk (which i actually am a little surprised by every time it happens). and of course, he can't possibly anticipate everything that could serve as a trigger for me this week (or any other week, for that matter).

here are some of the things that are tripping me up:

1. some of you will remember that last month, he secretly called one of the OWs, telling me that it was to get back money that she owed him. i found out and drama ensued, during which i ended up speaking to her on the phone. (_what?!!_) that whole scene threw me for a loop and i guess i am still rattled.

2. he has been open about his whereabouts and is volunteering access in all the important ways. this week, he has been waiting to get an MRI scheduled and the clinic finally fit him in yesterday evening. somehow that whole MRI thing, with its last-minuteness and whatever, just FELT the same way it always felt in the bad old days when he was making up stories to cover up his cheating. of course the insurance records will show that he got this MRI -- the miniscule amount of common sense that i have left tells me that. still i am a mess today and can't even think straight 

i'm so so tired of all this. i'm tired of thinking about it and i'm tired of trying NOT to think about it. i'm tired of trying to reason with myself, etc. 

i just want to get a string of good months going. i haven't had one of those yet....


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## cpacan

Margrace, I really wanna tell you something that will make it all go away, but I don't think I can. But I'll tell you something - I'm quite sure that I know exactly how you feel. And anniversaries just stink - for most betrayeds, that is. 

You're such a wonderfull person, I would so much like for you to think wonderful and beautiful thoughts. Could you try and detach a bit? I think you are still attached to the fear of loosing your husband?

I'm sure something nice is happening around you, notice it and acknowledge it, find happiness in small things and greater happiness WILL follow. Think gratitude - what are you gratefull for?

I'm facing 2-years past D-day anniversary on monday, and last year was a total nightmare, just awfull. I'll tell you what I'm gonna do this year (though I haven't planned it in detail yet). I'll take the day off, and I'll do stuff ALL day, just for ME. You know why? Because I'm the single most important person in my life, and I'll remind myself of that on monday, so I can return to focus on keeping ME happy. Then I know everything is going to be just fine, no matter what my wife chooses to do, and no matter how everything turns out in the future. I want happiness for me, and I'm gonna get it! 

Feel free to copy any of it, if it appeals to you. Keep on going, Margrace, you'll be OK, okay?


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## Rookie4

margrace said:


> hi everyone:
> 
> i'm in the middle of my d-day 2 anniversary week and i would like to say that i am doing great and enthusiastically kicking its butt like some of you.... but i'm not. i'm finding it very very hard.
> 
> on the positive side of things, my H has gained a lot of insight and is remorseful. i can see that partly by seeing how different it is from the first 9 months of pseudo-R, almost-R, working-up-to-R. now he only shows openness when i need to talk (which i actually am a little surprised by every time it happens). and of course, he can't possibly anticipate everything that could serve as a trigger for me this week (or any other week, for that matter).
> 
> here are some of the things that are tripping me up:
> 
> 1. some of you will remember that last month, he secretly called one of the OWs, telling me that it was to get back money that she owed him. i found out and drama ensued, during which i ended up speaking to her on the phone. (_what?!!_) that whole scene threw me for a loop and i guess i am still rattled.
> 
> 2. he has been open about his whereabouts and is volunteering access in all the important ways. this week, he has been waiting to get an MRI scheduled and the clinic finally fit him in yesterday evening. somehow that whole MRI thing, with its last-minuteness and whatever, just FELT the same way it always felt in the bad old days when he was making up stories to cover up his cheating. of course the insurance records will show that he got this MRI -- the miniscule amount of common sense that i have left tells me that. still i am a mess today and can't even think straight
> 
> i'm so so tired of all this. i'm tired of thinking about it and i'm tired of trying NOT to think about it. i'm tired of trying to reason with myself, etc.
> 
> i just want to get a string of good months going. i haven't had one of those yet....


Sounds to me like you desperately need some me-time. Think of something you like to do and do it yourself, without the distraction of WH. Get some fresh ideas going and some fresh juices flowing. Your best months are ahead of you. Work on Margrace.


----------



## Acabado

Rookie4 said:


> Sounds to me like you desperately need some me-time. Think of something you like to do and do it yourself, without the distraction of WH. Get some fresh ideas going and some fresh juices flowing. Your best months are ahead of you. Work on Margrace.


:iagree:


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by margrace
> hi everyone:
> 
> i'm in the middle of my d-day 2 anniversary week and i would like to say that i am doing great and enthusiastically kicking its butt like some of you.... but i'm not. i'm finding it very very hard.
> 
> 
> 1.	some of you will remember that last month, he secretly called one of the OWs, telling me that it was to get back money that she owed him. i found out and drama ensued, during which i ended up speaking to her on the phone. (what?!!) that whole scene threw me for a loop and i guess i am still rattled.



Margrace
*You have the right attitude, you have the right heart but your husband made a HUGE mistake.* Secretly calling the OW was a gianormous BOO BOO! I am not saying he is telling you a lie, in fact based on some of your words I think he was trying to get his money back. It is just that that he may not fully understand the sensitivity that a BS has about secret contact with the A partner. That is an understanding that he MUST get NOW and never do anything like that again.



My opinion is that he set you back a long way. My theory is that Rookie and B1 can kick AZZ because Mrs. Rookie and EI have NEVER secretly contact their A partner. Again, I do not want you to think that I am jumping on your husband but he needs to go way out of his way to make sure that he does nothing to trigger you so strongly. I know that money is important but your recovery and the R are more important.



My guess is that he is much wiser now but you cannot beat yourself up because you are not kicking AZZ. If your husband goes the extra mile and keeps helping you then you will recover quicker. How quick you recover will depend on him not doing anything like that again and you believing what CPACAN said when he said “You're such a wonderful person”. I will second that statement. Now do not get down on yourself because you are not kicking AZZ right now; you have a little healing to do. Rest up, do something good for yourself, and get ready to get back into the ring. Every fighter has to regroup after getting floored.



*From what I have read on this forum you are one of the favorites of many. That tells me that you are very lovable.*


----------



## calvin

Me and CSS made it after a six hour drive,no big deal but it POURED rain big time,it never let up.
I had the wipers on high the whole time and it was still hard to see.
CSS is feeling good and so am I,its nice to get away and just relax and forget about some things and remember how good we are together.
Biscuits and gravy in the morning!

EI,you have been really doing a lot to repair what happend,you have grown and learned so much and shared with everyone here,give yourself some credit,BI does.
I have heard him gush about you many times,you both are on the the right path and are an example of how everyone here can overcome and have a better marriage and a better life.
You both motivate me and CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> I AM the Alpha fish in my pond. LOL OLd Timer, this is what I mean about piss and vinegar
> 
> .


Sorry to be so late checking in, but I just finished thrashing a sweet little redhead. 

How's that for pizz and vinegar, grasshopper?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Just popping in to say thinking of all of you that are having your Dday anniversaries this week. I hope you can get through it ok and that something positive can come from it for you all.
Dday- the day we all began to heal our marriages, even though it didn't feel like it at the time just look how far we have all come.
Hang on in there my friends.

Calvin and CSS - Hope you have a great trip. You both deserve this break. Enjoy.
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Having a good time,I'm so glad CSS came with.
Its seems strange but I really think this is going to put a lot of stuff to rest for me.
CSS talked to everyone and no one judged her.
All is good.
Have a good weekend y'all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> Having a good time,I'm so glad CSS came with.
> Its seems strange but I really think this is going to put a lot of stuff to rest for me.
> CSS talked to everyone and no one judged her.
> All is good.
> Have a good weekend y'all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You two have a good time this weekend.

Start by shutting off TAM and enjoying each other.

Update us when you guys get back home.


----------



## EI

I want to say thank you to all of you who left such encouraging comments for me (and B1) the last couple of days. It means a great deal to have so much support, especially on the, particularly, hard days.

No matter how well "things" seem to be going.... This "reconciliation" business is hard stuff. Things can be going fairly well, or as well as can be expected, and then..... BOOM.... out of the blue, it just jumps up and bites us in the a$$. 

We should have seen it coming and prepared for it in advance, but sometimes, we just get so busy with the obligations in our lives that we don't. The thing is, infidelity doesn't come with a manual, for WS's on preparing for "triggers" any more than BS's do. And even if we did see it coming, we still have to function and handle all of our day to day responsibilities..... because, unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn't pause for us just because our own world has come to a grinding halt. 

I think that B1 and I had been psychologically preparing for the 1st "anniversary" of D-Day.... which will be May 27th. What we hadn't prepared for was the 2nd anniversary of D-Day # 1.... which is today.... April 19th.  Oddly enough.... last year it went by not only unannounced, but completely unacknowledged.... virtually unnoticed. In April, 2011, two months into my "A," I had inadvertently failed to logout of Facebook before I left to meet the xOM. That is how D-Day # 1 came to pass. B1 waited until the next day until after he got home from work to confront me. Long story, many of you are familiar with it.

Things were handled very differently by both of us the first time around. After a couple of months of a very poorly handled, on both of our parts, attempt to reconcile (my heart wasn't in it, at the time, and B1, with my blessing, rug swept the whole thing) our marriage was back to "business as usual" (no communication, no intimacy, no realistic attempts to learn how to problem solve our issues that were, both, pre-A and "A" related) and the "A" was NEVER mentioned again. D-Day had been on April 19th, 2011. By the end of June it was not mentioned again. By the end of July, I had resumed the "A." In August, I told B1 that I wanted a divorce and we told the children that we would divorce after our youngest graduated from high school (which is coming up this June.) But, after that, neither divorce or reconciliation were being discussed. Nor we're we working on our marriage. 

Now, I'm rambling, again, I didn't plan to. My point is that last year, when the "anniversary" of D-Day # 1 came around, B1 had so "successfully" rug swept the whole "A" (like I mentioned, with my blessing) that he was truly unaware of it. He was no more ready to "reconcile" in 2011 than I was. He was dealing with our issues by avoiding/ignoring them and I was dealing with them by turning to someone else for comfort, foolishly hoping that that would somehow help me "fix" all that was broken in my life. If not fix the issues..... at least help me to survive them.

Looking back now, I can't believe that two responsible, (I believe) reasonably intelligent, dedicated, loyal, caring people, who had accomplished so much in life and had served so many others, so well, could screw up their own lives so completely. And, yes, even I, a former WS, truly was all of those things.... before. I may have been a cheater, at one point, in my life, but I genuinely care about people.... I always have, I always will. No one can take that from me. I guess I feel compelled to say that because just remembering some of the horrible accusations that were thrown at me when I first came to TAM is still painful to think about. But, I realized that so many people were speaking from a place of their own pain and they were projecting that onto me. Having become acutely aware of how devastating and debilitating emotional pain can be and how adversely it can affect people, made me strive to gain a better understanding of, both, the BS and the WS. 

This post is all over the place..... I've really been struggling for several days. B1 is hurting, too. After D-Day # 2, he and I have, both, handled things differently. Of course, that has opened up lots of old wounds, including all of the "new" deceptions" between D-Day # 1 & 2. This post is too long, already, and my time is limited today. B1 and I are, also, being forced to handle some "other life" issues right now...... the non "A" related issues.... When under extreme pressure, I tend to revert to certain old behaviors (not cheating.... I'll never cheat, again) but more of a "Don't mess with me, don't get in my way, don't "need me" because I've got things to do" kind of attitude. I've probably always been this way, but now things are more sensitive, obviously. B1 does "need me" and life's obligations are calling. I think the 2nd anniversary of D-Day # 1 is hitting us, both, harder than expected because it wasn't dealt with before. 

Aside from a matching wristlet/boutonnière combo that was nothing like what I ordered for our son's prom tonight that MUST be redone in the next couple of hours, I've also got to help the same son "undo" a spray tan gone wrong. Then, I need to talk to one of our attorneys about a legal matter that's been dragging on for over two years that should have been settled yesterday, but I haven't heard back from him. And, I need to get in touch with our special needs son's new waiver case manager who hasn't returned my calls for two weeks. And, I have to prepare for our youngest son's 18th birthday party on Sunday.

Next week I'll worry about....... Well, I know what it is.... But, B1 and I aren't quite ready to share that yet....... Because, as our life would have it...... The next devastating life change is just around the corner....

Please pray for us..... If you don't pray, we'll take positive vibes, good thoughts, well wishes....... whatever you've got! 

B1, I love you.... very, very much. Please bear with me.... I'm doing my best and I know that it often falls short. I'm so sorry. I wish I could give you more, right now. I know you need it, I know you deserve it. I know it's a hard time for you....... It is for me, too. If I could take it back..... I would.... I'd give up anything I had.... You and the kids are my whole world. I'm just trying to hold it all together. <3



Edited to add: No time to proof-read! Gotta run!


----------



## calvin

We won't be on Tams a whole lot this weekend.
Prayers coming your way EI,you and B1 take care of eachother.
I have not felt this good in awhile,I'm pretty damn happy,you could'nt slap this silly grin off my face!
I'm very content.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thinking of you, EI, and of B1 too. Sending positive energy as you work through the tasks in front of you over the next few days, and for everything else that life always seems to have hidden up her sleeve.

You BOTH are truly wonderful people, who have worked hard to build happiness in your lives. You deserve that.


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> Sorry to be so late checking in, but I just finished thrashing a sweet little redhead.
> 
> How's that for pizz and vinegar, grasshopper?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, what's the deal, Old Timer? Slowin down? I used to drink a six of high life, a pint of Jim , screw 2 or 3 women ...........then get up, eat breakfast and go to work. How's that for a Grasshopper? LOL


----------



## TCSRedhead

Have fun Calvin and CSS - enjoy the time away together!!!

Sending healing thoughts to you both EI and B1.

It's going to be lonely in our household this week, C&B won't be home for a week. I'm going to miss him terribly.


----------



## Rookie4

Sorry, EI, for being flippant. I'm just getting the Old Timer's goat.


----------



## Rookie4

Calvin and CSS, have a good time. You will have a lot different perspective when you get home. Believe me.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of EI
> Looking back now, I can't believe that two responsible, (I believe) reasonably intelligent, dedicated, loyal, caring people, who had accomplished so much in life and had served so many others, so well, could screw up their own lives so completely.


I wish that I could take some of the pressure off of you and B1 but I can’t. What I would like to do is comment on your statement above.

I will start with “Intelligent”. EI, even without you proof reading your last post I can tell that you are very intellect. You put together your thoughts so well and write like a pro. 

“Dedicated and loyal” I know just a little about your dedicated and loyal attributes and I am very impressed. I remember the hospital stay that your child had and how you were so lyal and dedicated yourself for that child. I have seen how you have taken hits on TAM and I am sure other places and yet you still are dedicated and loyal to those that want your help.

“Caring” I would bet that if I were to be in a room with all the TAM people on this thread and ask for those that think that EI is “caring” to clap, you would get a standing ovation!!


Did you screw up your life back then? YES
Now look what you have done. You have taken your medicine like a big girl, you have suffered for your mistakes and are still suffering some, you are like Rocky, you get knocked down and you get right back up, you are so attentive to B1, There is not a man alive that can get you to take your eyes off of B1, you go way out of your way to help others including many on TAM. You and B1 are an inspiration to many on this thread. 

*Finally I want to say that you EI are a GREAT MOTHER.* I can read between the lines of your posts and know that you would walk through the coals of hell for your children. God pity any soul that hurts MaMa EI’s children. I work with families for over 30 years and I know that your husband and your children have a jewel in you. You and B1 are going to suffer a bit more but you two will finally finish this fight and you both will be a HUGE inspiration to many of us and to yourself.

No, I cannot stop the stress and pain that you have right now but I know that you and B1 are made of fine gold and are the salt of the earth type people. You do not have to tell me how you feel funny accepting these compliments and then tell me your failures, I know all about that negative thinking. The bottom line is that you did some negative things but you are not a negative person so do not feed the lying negative tempter. I can see that you and B1 are very good people and so can a whole lot of people on this thread. I know that you will have down days but just remember that you and B1 are way ahead of the game and are winners! 

My prayer for you and B1 is below:

*
Isaiah 41:10
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.


LUKE 7
47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”
48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”*


----------



## happyman64

EI

When you and B1 send posts like this I realize how much you two love each other and how much you two fight for your marriage.

Your emotions and thoughts written serve as inspiration for me and I believe many other Tammers what it means to be in a committed relationship.

So I thank you. And even though you ask for our prayers what I pray for is that you and B1 keep finding each other everyday.

So even though you might mark these days with anniversaries I hope the two of you focus on three important dates.

The day you first two met.

The day you two originally married each other.

And the day you two truly found each other again.....

HM64


----------



## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> So, what's the deal, Old Timer? Slowin down? I used to drink a six of high life, a pint of Jim , screw 2 or 3 women ...........then get up, eat breakfast and go to work. How's that for a Grasshopper? LOL


I was on a tight schedule...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

E1 once again your heartfelt post brought a tear to my eye. You write so beautifully.
It sounds like you and B1 have a busy couple of days ahead of you but you will get through it. Parenting is a full time job, marriage is a full time job, but you are both doing amazingly. 
Even if you don't have time during the day, hold each other close at night and thank god that you still have each other and that he is holding you both safe in his arms.
Thinking of you both, but also certain that you will get through whatever life throws at you, together!
Much love
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

We have had a good few days. We had a bit of an argument a few days ago. I was freaking out because I had found out that he had set up a dating membership twice, not once as I had thought.

Originally he had told me he'd bought it back in September, so I figured, as it was still active in March on D-day, that it had been a six-month membership. But I found out that it had been a 3-month one which he had not renewed because, when it ran out in early December, he was still with the OW and thought he had no reason to renew it.

But then after she broke up with him, he had renewed it in mid-January, which meant that it has only just run out. This transpired because he was unable to delete his profile until the subscription had run out, and I had been upset as I couldn't figure out why it was still on, when I thought it would have run out back in March.

When I found this out I was very upset and freaked out, and he got all defensive about it. I don't think he realised the significance of him CHOOSING to set up a paid-for dating website profile, not once but TWICE.

One of the things I asked him during the convo on FaceTime was why, if he was not committed to our M to the extent that he was looking on dating sites again, why did he not just end it with me in January?

He couldn't really give me an answer, but he did reiterate that it was in the past. So I then said "And now? Are you fully committed now?"

His answer: "I don't know."

So then I was very upset again and said that if HE wasn't committed, then why the heck were we putting ourselves through the whole R thing. Why not just end it?

He said that he wasn't committed because he felt I wasn't committed. Then he said that he did want the M, but not all the [email protected] that was going on at the moment.

I told him that I was allowed not to be committed - I was the one still deciding whether I wanted to R or not, and that he had brought all the [email protected] on himself, that he just had to put up with the [email protected]

He wasn't nasty about it - I was the one that was angry, but he was saying things I didn't like, so I was upset and angry and he was starting to get a little annoyed. So I ended the conversation, calmly, saying goodnight, not just hanging up, before things got worse.

But the next day we talked much more calmly and I basically said all the things again, but more reasonably and with less anger. I told him - nicely - that to have that kind of attitude is like buying a horse, but then not wanting to shovel the sh!t. He bought the horse - now he has to shovel the sh!t. I said a lot of stuff, that I felt when I was nice and trying to be polite about it, he didn't fully understand the extent of my hurt and upset. But if allow my feelings to show, then he gets defensive and we don't end up having a constructive conversation.

Anyway, that convo went better and last night I had an idea. He came round for tea and I took him upstairs.

He has been wearing his wedding ring on his other hand, and I have not been wearing mine at all. So last night I sat him on the bed and I took his wedding ring off and held it in my hand. I said "I can't promise that it will work, but I can promise you that I do want to try." And I put his wedding ring back on his wedding finger. Then I gave him the boxes with my rings in, and I asked him to put them back on my fingers.

So after that we had a lovely evening. The only mention of the A was me saying that I had to "own my triggers" - which was in regard to us going out tonight to Frankie and Benny's and the movie; one of his dates with the OW was the Frankie and Benny's and the movies (although not the same one - I think that might have been a step too far).

That was so he understood why specifically I wanted to go there, and I was saying about not letting the triggers run my life, that I didn't want to be scared of going to such and such a place. Apart from that, there was no mention of it at all.

So I am looking forward to a good night tonight. I think putting the rings back on is a big step forward, and will let him know that I really do want to make this work for us.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> I want to say thank you to all of you who left such encouraging comments for me (and B1) the last couple of days. It means a great deal to have so much support, especially on the, particularly, hard days.
> 
> No matter how well "things" seem to be going.... This "reconciliation" business is hard stuff. Things can be going fairly well, or as well as can be expected, and then..... BOOM.... out of the blue, it just jumps up and bites us in the a$$.
> 
> We should have seen it coming and prepared for it in advance, but sometimes, we just get so busy with the obligations in our lives that we don't. The thing is, infidelity doesn't come with a manual, for WS's on preparing for "triggers" any more than BS's do. And even if we did see it coming, we still have to function and handle all of our day to day responsibilities..... because, unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn't pause for us just because our own world has come to a grinding halt.
> 
> I think that B1 and I had been psychologically preparing for the 1st "anniversary" of D-Day.... which will be May 27th. What we hadn't prepared for was the 2nd anniversary of D-Day # 1.... which is today.... April 19th.  Oddly enough.... last year it went by not only unannounced, but completely unacknowledged.... virtually unnoticed. In April, 2011, two months into my "A," I had inadvertently failed to logout of Facebook before I left to meet the xOM. That is how D-Day # 1 came to pass. B1 waited until the next day until after he got home from work to confront me. Long story, many of you are familiar with it.
> 
> Things were handled very differently by both of us the first time around. After a couple of months of a very poorly handled, on both of our parts, attempt to reconcile (my heart wasn't in it, at the time, and B1, with my blessing, rug swept the whole thing) our marriage was back to "business as usual" (no communication, no intimacy, no realistic attempts to learn how to problem solve our issues that were, both, pre-A and "A" related) and the "A" was NEVER mentioned again. D-Day had been on April 19th, 2011. By the end of June it was not mentioned again. By the end of July, I had resumed the "A." In August, I told B1 that I wanted a divorce and we told the children that we would divorce after our youngest graduated from high school (which is coming up this June.) But, after that, neither divorce or reconciliation were being discussed. Nor we're we working on our marriage.
> 
> Now, I'm rambling, again, I didn't plan to. My point is that last year, when the "anniversary" of D-Day # 1 came around, B1 had so "successfully" rug swept the whole "A" (like I mentioned, with my blessing) that he was truly unaware of it. He was no more ready to "reconcile" in 2011 than I was. He was dealing with our issues by avoiding/ignoring them and I was dealing with them by turning to someone else for comfort, foolishly hoping that that would somehow help me "fix" all that was broken in my life. If not fix the issues..... at least help me to survive them.
> 
> Looking back now, I can't believe that two responsible, (I believe) reasonably intelligent, dedicated, loyal, caring people, who had accomplished so much in life and had served so many others, so well, could screw up their own lives so completely. And, yes, even I, a former WS, truly was all of those things.... before. I may have been a cheater, at one point, in my life, but I genuinely care about people.... I always have, I always will. No one can take that from me. I guess I feel compelled to say that because just remembering some of the horrible accusations that were thrown at me when I first came to TAM is still painful to think about. But, I realized that so many people were speaking from a place of their own pain and they were projecting that onto me. Having become acutely aware of how devastating and debilitating emotional pain can be and how adversely it can affect people, made me strive to gain a better understanding of, both, the BS and the WS.
> 
> This post is all over the place..... I've really been struggling for several days. B1 is hurting, too. After D-Day # 2, he and I have, both, handled things differently. Of course, that has opened up lots of old wounds, including all of the "new" deceptions" between D-Day # 1 & 2. This post is too long, already, and my time is limited today. B1 and I are, also, being forced to handle some "other life" issues right now...... the non "A" related issues.... When under extreme pressure, I tend to revert to certain old behaviors (not cheating.... I'll never cheat, again) but more of a "Don't mess with me, don't get in my way, don't "need me" because I've got things to do" kind of attitude. I've probably always been this way, but now things are more sensitive, obviously. B1 does "need me" and life's obligations are calling. I think the 2nd anniversary of D-Day # 1 is hitting us, both, harder than expected because it wasn't dealt with before.
> 
> Aside from a matching wristlet/boutonnière combo that was nothing like what I ordered for our son's prom tonight that MUST be redone in the next couple of hours, I've also got to help the same son "undo" a spray tan gone wrong. Then, I need to talk to one of our attorneys about a legal matter that's been dragging on for over two years that should have been settled yesterday, but I haven't heard back from him. And, I need to get in touch with our special needs son's new waiver case manager who hasn't returned my calls for two weeks. And, I have to prepare for our youngest son's 18th birthday party on Sunday.
> 
> Next week I'll worry about....... Well, I know what it is.... But, B1 and I aren't quite ready to share that yet....... Because, as our life would have it...... The next devastating life change is just around the corner....
> 
> Please pray for us..... If you don't pray, we'll take positive vibes, good thoughts, well wishes....... whatever you've got!
> 
> B1, I love you.... very, very much. Please bear with me.... I'm doing my best and I know that it often falls short. I'm so sorry. I wish I could give you more, right now. I know you need it, I know you deserve it. I know it's a hard time for you....... It is for me, too. If I could take it back..... I would.... I'd give up anything I had.... You and the kids are my whole world. I'm just trying to hold it all together. <3
> 
> 
> 
> Edited to add: No time to proof-read! Gotta run!


EI,

Can you do me a favor. Please go in the bathroom look in the mirror 

and say out loud, "I forgive you."

Forgive yourself but do not forget the lesson. You have come so far and done so much. You are a wonderfull person whose marriage will reach new heights. Your best days are ahead of you and not many people can say that.

You and your husband have something so special. Do not let the past take that from you.

You have helped so many people on this board I know I speak for many in saying thank you.


----------



## Acabado

jim123 said:


> EI,
> Can you do me a favor. Please go in the bathroom look in the mirror and say out loud, "I forgive you."


This caught my eye! Dead on.
I once put my wife until the mirror and forced her to say out loud she was beautiful, inside and out, to forget the destroyed makeup, that she had to _see_ it through the tears already.

No matter how hard you try she has to be ready to _see_ on her own, to believe it to be true.
She's not the one she sometimes sees, that woman died time ago, she put her to rest. This is almost the false, disorted image my anorexic anorexic little sister saw to my astonishment. It's not the fair house of mirrors, it's not the mirror the cause of the disorted reflection.

I'm there with her to asure, because it's the truth. She still often believes me more than herself.
Time heals. She's doing better and believe it more ofhen than not. 

To all struggling former waywards. Believe it. It's true.


----------



## SomedayDig

As I said in another thread somewhere, last week I decided it was time to stop being a "betrayed spouse". That described who I WAS. Yes, by mere technicality that's my moniker yet it is NOT who I AM.

The same goes with any "wayward spouse" who has chosen a proper path toward reconciliation. 

Who are you TODAY? Yesterday's done and gone. No sense living in it every f'ng day. TODAY is what it's about.


----------



## margrace

Mr Blunt said:


> Margrace
> *You have the right attitude, you have the right heart but your husband made a HUGE mistake.* Secretly calling the OW was a gianormous BOO BOO! I am not saying he is telling you a lie, in fact based on some of your words I think he was trying to get his money back. It is just that that he may not fully understand the sensitivity that a BS has about secret contact with the A partner. That is an understanding that he MUST get NOW and never do anything like that again.
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion is that he set you back a long way. My theory is that Rookie and B1 can kick AZZ because Mrs. Rookie and EI have NEVER secretly contact their A partner. Again, I do not want you to think that I am jumping on your husband but he needs to go way out of his way to make sure that he does nothing to trigger you so strongly. I know that money is important but your recovery and the R are more important.
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is that he is much wiser now but you cannot beat yourself up because you are not kicking AZZ. If your husband goes the extra mile and keeps helping you then you will recover quicker. How quick you recover will depend on him not doing anything like that again and you believing what CPACAN said when he said “You're such a wonderful person”. I will second that statement. Now do not get down on yourself because you are not kicking AZZ right now; you have a little healing to do. Rest up, do something good for yourself, and get ready to get back into the ring. Every fighter has to regroup after getting floored.
> 
> 
> 
> *From what I have read on this forum you are one of the favorites of many. That tells me that you are very lovable.*


mr. b, you have such a warm, wise way of responding to everyone.... thank you so much. this message really helped me and i also sent it to my H. 

i also appreciated your response to EI and BI. that's just what i would like to convey to them too -- that they are fine gold and also salt of the earth 

jim123, your suggestion to EI about looking in the mirror was beautiful as well.

cpacan, rookie, acabado -- thanks so much and *yes *to the thoughts about detaching a bit and doing something for me. the discovery of the secret phone calls did set me back. i tried to reason it away as quickly as possible when it happened, but clearly i had not really digested it. we talked about it last night, which helped. 

now....? as everyone knows, there's a little bit of a time-will-tell element to all of this. those of you who have experienced a period of genuine R commitment by both spouses know how much more that means than words. it has taken us a while to get there, but i think that (as someone mentioned) my best R days may be just ahead....


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## calvin

Hope everyone is doing good,CSS and I are having a good time and this is what the doctore ordered.
I know we are less than two hours away from you E1 and B1 but I come down a couple times a year,this summer we'll take a little extra time and see you both.
Give yourself some credt E1,you have come a long way.
Take care every one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChangingMe

Acabado said:


> This caught my eye! Dead on.
> I once put my wife until the mirror and forced her to say out loud she was beautiful, inside and out, to forget the destroyed makeup, that she had to _see_ it through the tears already.
> 
> No matter how hard you try she has to be ready to _see_ on her own, to believe it to be true.
> She's not the one she sometimes sees, that woman died time ago, she put her to rest. This is almost the false, disorted image my anorexic anorexic little sister saw to my astonishment. It's not the fair house of mirrors, it's not the mirror the cause of the disorted reflection.
> 
> I'm there with her to asure, because it's the truth. She still often believes me more than herself.
> Time heals. She's doing better and believe it more ofhen than not.
> 
> To all struggling former waywards. Believe it. It's true.


Thank you for this post, Acabado. It made me cry.


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## EI

Thank you....... all of you... B1 and I are good..... and we're gonna be great.... It just takes some time. I know we wouldn't be where we are right now without you guys giving us encouragement and direction. 

Never think that you don't make a difference...... You have no idea just how much difference you do make. You all are the best.... The very best!!! <3


----------



## EI

Any of you guys ever been to Thunder Over Louisville? Any of you know what Thunder Over Louisville is?


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## bfree

EI said:


> Any of you guys ever been to Thunder Over Louisville? *Any of you know what Thunder Over Louisville is*?


Rick Pitino?


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## old timer

EI said:


> Any of you guys ever been to Thunder Over Louisville? Any of you know what Thunder Over Louisville is?


All I know is that it's two weeks before the KY Derby
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> As I said in another thread somewhere, last week I decided it was time to stop being a "betrayed spouse". That described who I WAS. Yes, by mere technicality that's my moniker yet it is NOT who I AM.
> 
> The same goes with any "wayward spouse" who has chosen a proper path toward reconciliation.
> 
> Who are you TODAY? Yesterday's done and gone. No sense living in it every f'ng day. TODAY is what it's about.


Don't Stop-Fleetwood Mac + lyrics in description - YouTube This should be the official theme song for this thread.


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## Robsia

Have I done something wrong? Feeling a bit ignored here


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## TCSRedhead

How did the night go Robsia? The rings are a good step. He should be patient and understanding of those triggers since this IS very recent and it IS caused by his actions. This is not a fast and easy path for the BS or the WS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

It went really well. I did trigger a little, being in a Frankie and Benny's, but it was small and easily controlled. Doing the rings was the right thing, I think. It is still early but I am committed to R now, I think, provided everything continues to go well.

He isn't perfect, he's only human, and he doesn't always get it right, but as long as we continue to talk to each other and not give up at every tiny little hurdle, then we will be on the right track.


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## Rookie4

Robsia, communicating is one thing, but don't sacrifice your interests just so you two can communicate. The WS must put forth the major part of the effort to R, and if he/she doesn't, the prognosis is usually very poor for any kind of truth or permanency.


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## cpacan

Robsia said:


> It went really well. I did trigger a little, being in a Frankie and Benny's, but it was small and easily controlled. Doing the rings was the right thing, I think. It is still early but I am committed to R now, I think, provided everything continues to go well.
> 
> He isn't perfect, he's only human, and he doesn't always get it right, but as long as we continue to talk to each other and not give up at every tiny little hurdle, then we will be on the right track.


Robsia; forgive my linguistics, this may come out more harsh than I intend to, but I don't know how else to put it in english.

You are still early on and D-day is still very fresh in your mind as well as in your husbands. I think you are fully commited to reconcile before it too soon, meaning before you even know if the ground for R is solid.

My wife may not be the best communicator, and I may have taken too much c*** in the early days, but I can tell you this: Had she told me that she didn't know if she was commited to our marriage, I would have ended it right there. 

There may be more to it than you write in your posts, and you may have explained it in other threads, I don't know, but from what you write in this thread, you seem to want the relationship way more than you husband does, and that makes the marriage a bit unbalanced IMO.


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## B1

Robsia,

Not ignored, I have posted before and got no response..sometimes it's all in the timing of your post. I know for us we are getting ready for our sons 18th b-day party...EI is running around like crazy cleaning. Yes, I helped and now I am hiding in the bedroom posting this 


When he said "I don't know" that would have scared me too. That's not what you want to hear. 

Also, you may not like this but he really doesn't have to put up with the crap either. I yelled once "I'm driving this train" during an argument and it didn't go well. Believe it or not, the WS does have a say. I know it's not the TAM thing to acknowledge. Because according to many you are in charge, your driving and he has no say. 

But...in R, he does have a say. If he's not on board then your chances of R are slim. Good thing though, is the next day you were calmer and seemed to get better control and you two got somewhere. Good for you!

Just remember it takes two to do this, two committed people. So in the midst of ALL the pain you have to be strong and fight the urge to lash out. Progress in R comes slowly and, for the most part, it comes when you are both calm and reasonable. 

Now, I have to run and finish getting this place ready for family to come over...


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## Robsia

B1 said:


> When he said "I don't know" that would have scared me too. That's not what you want to hear.
> 
> Also, you may not like this but he really doesn't have to put up with the crap either. I yelled once "I'm driving this train" during an argument and it didn't go well. Believe it or not, the WS does have a say. I know it's not the TAM thing to acknowledge. Because according to many you are in charge, your driving and he has no say.
> 
> But...in R, he does have a say. If he's not on board then your chances of R are slim. Good thing though, is the next day you were calmer and seemed to get better control and you two got somewhere. Good for you!
> 
> Just remember it takes two to do this, two committed people. So in the midst of ALL the pain you have to be strong and fight the urge to lash out. Progress in R comes slowly and, for the most part, it comes when you are both calm and reasonable.


This is what I feel too. Yes, he did me wrong, he admits that.

Whilst I don't want to continue punishing him for ever, my responses right now are not those of a wife in a normal relationship. We are not in a normal relationship, so sometimes my responses are not normal.

When that happens, he has to let go of what his 'normal' response might be, and give me patience, understanding, and lots of love and reassurance.

That is where we are falling down, because when I get upset and over-react, he reacts as he normally would when he feels attacked, which is defensively.

When we talk about it afterwards, once we've both calmed down, I have tried to tell him why this is happening, and what I need him to do. He has promised to try. I don't want to give him the crap, and I do try to be calm and nice and reasonable, but sometimes it all gets too much and I can't.

Right now we are struggling on our own. We're still waiting for a time slot to come free for our MC. Relate only do Mon and Wed 6-9 pm or Tues 9-12 am and we can only do the evening ones. So we have to wait for a free slot to come up, basically when another couple comes to the end of their counselling. But once a slot comes free, that's ours then as long as we need it.

But these last few days have been good, as they usually are when we are together. We have another nice weekend planned for next weekend, so let's see if we can get through a week apart without we falling to bits again.


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## daisygirl 41

Rosbia, you are still trying to control the R. His still trying to minimise and rug sweep. I know you are unlikely to take any of this on on onboard but can't you see that you are the one still trying to fix this and he's just doing as he's told. 
He's still not sure if he wants to R - red flag
He gets defensive - red flag
He wasn't wearing his wedding ring on the right finger - red flag - you orchestrated that situation.

So what exactly is HE doing to PROVE to you that he wants this marriage to work?
Is he loving, affectionate and attentive to your needs?
Is he trying to understand your pain?
Is he transparent now with his phone?
What does he do during the week while he is away from you? Does he initiate contact? Txtin? Phone calls?

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I know from your posts that you prefer plain talking. Please look at the questions I have asked you and try to answer them (just to yourself) honestly.

I went through a false R with my H that lasted 10 months. When you are going through a true R you can see the signs. If H isn't sure he wants to R then you MUST pull back and stop the initiating. It just make you look needy and controlling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

Robsia - I am so sorry to say this, but I think DG is spot on with her assessment. My H took a long time to decide that he _really_ did want to R and until he did, his behavour was a lot like what you are describing from your H. I had to stop trying to fix things before he started thinking for himself. Until he did; our supposed R was a sham and it was me that paid the price. 

Please try to draw back for your own sake.


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## Robsia

I must confess, he hasn't done much pro-actively, i.e. him coming up with ideas, although he does do the things I ask him to do. I've said from the beginning I feel like I am doing all the work, I'm doing all the research and saying "This is what you need to do" and then he will do it.

But when I bring this up and say he needs to do stuff too, he says he doesn't know what it is he needs to do, that he's relying on me to tell him what I need, because he doesn't know what I need because he's not in my head.

During the week mostly we are both working. We have a standing arrangement that we FT every night at 10pm or shortly thereafter - I call him because I am the one who is busy in the evenings putting kids to bed and getting our stuff ready for tomorrow so it makes sense for me to call him when I am ready, rather than him to call me when I'm still in the middle of doing stuff.

He does often text me during the day just to say hey.

He has made the arrangements for counselling, chased up the AM appt a while back, done all his appts, organised dates for our date nights, bought me flowers, taken on board a lot of what I have said and tried to apply it, accepted responsibility for what he has done, apologised, showed remorse.

He doesn't get defensive about the A - never about that - he always answers my questions, he never says it's the wrong time or that he doesn't want to talk about it, or has any impatience or anything like that. He only gets defensive when I get angry or aggressive toward him, and he doesn't get aggressive back, but his mood changes and he is no longer open to me, or in a receptive mood.

When I come on here, you tend to get a lot of the negative, and I don't talk so much about the positive, so maybe you are getting a skewed view.

I don't know whether it's just that he's not perfect, and that he's not always doing everything right, or whether these are red flags I ought to be worrying about. it does worry me that he is fine when everything is hunky dory, but he is not fine when I'm an angry, upset, weepy mess. Then, I would like him to step up and reassure me, not go into defensive mode, which makes things worse. He says that when I upset HIM, that he does not want me to make him better, so he assumes the same is true for me - why would I want HIM to make me feel better when HE has upset ME.

So I have tried to explain that one to him too - that he is not listening to MY needs - he is assuming what my needs are, based on what his needs would be, rather than actually listening to me when I tell him what my needs actually ARE, but that is something he did all through our M anyway. That's something we need to look at in MC, when it eventually bloody starts.

See it's so early, and we're struggling on our own, both of us.

All I know is, when I'm with him I feel better, and when I back off, I feel horrible, and sick with anxiety.


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## daisygirl 41

Rosbia, now this sounds much more positive. 
Remember. Men are from Mars, Women Are from Venus.
We speak a different language. My H also has difficulty when I am upset and in need of reassurance. So I have to Tell him what I need. He wants to try and fix me, but he can't always do that and I have explained all I want is comfort and reassurance and he gives it.

Maybe things need to be stepped up now. You have the responsibility for the children all week. Maybe he could come over on a Wednesday for tea and help you out with the kids, or even leave him with the kids and have a few hours to yourself. Meet some friends or do something for yourself. How do you think he would respond to that? 

Totally understand when you speak about your anxiety about being away from him. I had complete separation anxiety when my H was living away from me still experience it now from time to time. That's all part of it and something that you need to work on for yourself. Try some mediation and self help. You might even need to see the GP about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

What we've started to do is he comes for tea on Fridays and stays here overnight, so we all have family time together. Sometimes we do something together as a family Saturday day - the other week we went to see a show, and this Saturday we are going to Madame Tussauds as I have some BOGOF tickets.

Then, on Saturday nights I get my friend or my mum to have the girls overnight so we get our date night AND a night and morning alone to ourselves without the kids, which I think is important.

The girls are my children from before we married, not his, so I don't expect him to take as much responsibility for them as I would if he were their father.

As an Aspie, I'm very into my routine and I only really have one friend that I spend any time with - she comes round weekly after work and we spend the evening together at my house - she comes for tea and we natter for a couple of hours - she is my kids' adoptive aunty, she's more like a sister to me than a friend, so we all spend time together which is nice. There's nowhere else really I would want to go - I'm a homebody 

I do genuinely think he wants to work at the M - but in his own words he likes a quiet life, and he is going to have to step up and alter his automatic defensive reactions when things are not so nicey nicey. That's the only complaint I really have at the moment.


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## CantSitStill

Hi everyone we are back. It was a very very nice trip. Calvin and I are doing real well 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Robsia, you said you two are living apart right? I think it would be harder to reconcile that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> Hi everyone we are back. It was a very very nice trip. Calvin and I are doing real well
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad you both had a good time.


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Glad you both had a good time.


We did have a good time,couple hiccups but nothing we can't get over.
Been praying for you EI and B1,you guys got this,don't stop and don't forget how far you guys have come.
Love you guys,take care.
In my prayers every night,I mean that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Glad you had a good trip CSS and Calvin.
Welcome back
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

Wondering why it has been so quiet these last few days. Seems everyone took a vacation! LOL I know I was forced into one. Sorry this is a bit long. 
In another post I was given THE LETTER to give to my WH who has not been forthcoming with all the details that I have requested, who has put all his energy into the business and was about to expand. The building came and went. I told him no I would not support it. I felt so powerful standing up and saying no. There was a bit of guilt but I think that is natural. I also figured if I don't get to move forward neither does anything else. I gave him “The Letter” April 1, says he is reading it and having to reread it, it is so deep. Then I found it on his desk and saw the parts he marked or rewrote. In referring to what brought our relationship down was not his actions but what was happening in the marriage. Once again deferring everything back to us not dealing with his betrayal. So I was a little T'ed. 
He opened another bank account and credit card for the company. When we went down to have me added the clerk and him were doing a lot of bantering. She had information about our life that she shouldn’t have. Very overly friendly conversation in my books but I was unable to put it into words without coming across as totally loosing it. So I bit my lip then I texted him from the garden after digging yet another hole. "Once upon a time I would have found the bantering and flirting amusing. At that time I trusted you completely without doubt. That time is over. She had too mush information about our personal life. The conversation between you two was overly friendly. She is a bank clerk not a family friend you are out of line." He came home to reassure me that he was in love with me and only me Bla Bla Bla. My head kept saying Yeah sure for the moment..... I can’t help but question someone that says they wanted out then decide they want back in, it will never happen again when they figure out it’s not what they wanted. Damage was done. If someone can get mad at you and go do this for a moment what stops them from doing it again the next time they get mad at you? I am so tired. On top of that I have done a time line of all the events that have taken place since D Day and we have not had the time or space to deal with ourselves properly. Life’s responsibilities have gotten in the way. This last week my daughters Ex filed for custody of the three kids, and filed a restraining order out of county after being denied in this one. All the accusations are lies and twisted half-truths. Over this same weekend she was served he came and got the kids a day early without even talking to an adult. They (his new girlfriend) came to the house to pick them up when they were supposed to meet at police station. Now he is calling saying he isn’t going to bring them back unless she calls him. To do so is violation of order and she would be subject to arrest. Set up…. The worst happens, she misses court. According to the restraining order she was not to be within so many feet therefore she couldn’t go to court. Now the babies are gone and also according to order no one can call on her behalf either. So I’m afraid to call least he turns it around on her. I am so scared for them he is abusive. SO as it is the house is quiet and there still isn’t time for anything. My new kitchen floor is being installed. Our daughter has just had a rude awakening and is having to get off her but and make some changes. All this affects us. WH says I was spending most of my time taking on the parental responsibilities that I should not have been and I say there was a lot I should have taken on that I didn’t. I miss my girls and my 3-year-old helper. I don’t really care about anything else but their welfare. G-mom and papa have been their only source of stability all their lives. D Day was 20 months ago and I am still waiting for actions and answers. I am not willing to walk out yet life’s responsibilities keep me going day in and out. Maybe I need to learn how to play more cause I sure ain’t laughing much. The one thing I do know is I cannot imagine life without him in it therefore I know I can forgive him one day. I have changed so much from where we were. Mostly I changed back into the person I was before I got sick and into this new person I didn’t want to be. I enjoy reading everyone’s posts, they all give me hope and make me thankful too. I understand my WH better than he understands himself. I could give him the answers but I am waiting for him. He has to say these things if he is going to show me he is remorseful. I understand that it does not matter what problems we had his betrayal is the only one that matters and cannot be repaired. By repaired I mean it cannot be undone. He has to make amends not me. He has asked to remarry and I wonder why, if you don’t respect the vows of your marriage the first time why should anyone think you would respect them a second time. Breaks my heart and makes me bitter. All my dreams for our marriage are over, the longer it takes him to give me answers the more I am learning not to care. At my age I should not being going through this. Yet, I have also discovered many things about myself and am resolving many issues from childhood. To help with the panic disorder and force myself out of the house I have become a volunteer at the animal shelter. When I’ll actually have time I don’t know but I will make time to be with the only constant in my life, the animals. Thank you all for being here and sharing your struggles and accomplishments it certainly is a bumpy ride.


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## calvin

Morning all,I hope everyone is well,or about as well as you can be.
I hate coming back to work after five days off...ugh.
I feel I have a better outlook on life and CSS and I,some things were put into perspective while we were away.
It still kinda hurts but deep down I know CSS and I are going to be just fine.
Hope you all have a decent day.
Hang in there everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

CantSitStill said:


> Robsia, you said you two are living apart right? I think it would be harder to reconcile that way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To a point, you are right.

However, I will not move back in with him until his AM problems are sorted, and also our MC is well underway, however long that will take. It was rough when we were living together, we rowed a LOT and I will not put my children, or myself, back into that situation.

Right now, we are dating, going right back to the beginning. I would like to live with him again and have a normal marriage. In many ways, given that we had problems AND that he cheated, it would be far easier to walk away. But the love is still there, and I think if we can sort out our issues, and try again, we could make a go of it second time round.

He got his blood results back which his AM counsellor sent him for. They were normal so there is no physical reason for his anger issues.

However, when he was on the phone with his GP, the doctor asked him some questions and suggested clinical depression may be a factor. Eighteen years ago, he and his first wife lost a baby - a son who was stillborn at full term. When he has talked about it, he says that he never got any support at the time; she did, but he was expected to just carry on as if nothing had happened, carry on going to work, supporting the family etc. And he did, because that was his role as the breadwinner.

But subsequently he and his wife racked up a lot of debt, buying things to make them feel better, going on holidays they couldn't afford. Then there were lean years when they manned up and had to pay it back, which was tough. Her parents died during that time and she turned to drink. And then five years ago, she left him, taking their two boys 200 miles away to Scotland.

Losing the baby still affects him a lot. He has visited the grave and cried over it; when stories come on hospital programmes about babies dying, he cries; I can see it still affects him.

It is possible that he has been depressed ever since then and, when he met me, he had so many issues that he had rug-swept. We met four months after his wife left and when I moved in, I think I just took the place of his first wife in their house, and in their bed, and, after our honeymoon period was over, he fell into the habit of treating me like he had treated her. Same marriage, same husband, different wife.

Our marriage probably never stood a chance from the beginning. But I do believe there is a good, decent, kind man inside him, a man who has gone through a great deal of suffering alone. And I want to help him be that man.


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## B1

Jupiter13,
Hello and welcome to the thread...

"D Day was 20 months ago and I am still waiting for actions and answers"

And it doesn't sound like your going to get any answers anytime soon. I think you have to be willing to let him go to, possibly, get him back. 

Sorry things are such a mess in other areas too, when it rains it pores, I sure understand that.

He never faced any consequences, and it seems as though he blames you for his A...not good. It's hard to move forward and it's hard to R when the fws doesn't see their wrongs, admit fault and also refuses to talk about it and answer at least basic questions.

You need answers, you deserve answers.


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## B1

calvin said:


> Morning all,I hope everyone is well,or about as well as you can be.
> I hate coming back to work after five days off...ugh.
> I feel I have a better outlook on life and CSS and I,some things were put into perspective while we were away.
> It still kinda hurts but deep down I know CSS and I are going to be just fine.
> Hope you all have a decent day.
> Hang in there everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Welcome back calvin and css...SO glad you two had that time together, it had to be nice. :smthumbup:


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## calvin

B1 said:


> Welcome back calvin and css...SO glad you two had that time together, it had to be nice. :smthumbup:


It was B1,I can't wait for our camping trip,I love being out in the woods.
We take our kids of course but we also bring along nieces and nephews,been doing that for years,thank God they are able to help out now that they are bigger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Calvin and CSS - so glad you guys got a chance to get away together. One good thing that has come out of this mess for my wife and I is that we do a much better job of making "us" a priority. We do at least one or two date nights a month, grab one or two long weekend trips away without the kids each year. 

Before, there was always guilt associated with doing this. But we came to realize that ensuring our marriage and relationship is in a good place pays huge dividends in our family life and ability to provide a stable and loving environment for our kids. When "we" are healthy and thriving, so is our family and our children.

Jupiter13 - So sorry you find yourself still stalled out after 20 months. Agree with B1, I think you need to play hard ball. You need to force action or deliver consequences. He needs to step up or step out. I know this can be a scary scenario, but it will ultimately just get you to the same end result faster. Think of it as a fast forward button, allowing you to fast forward through potentially months or even years of painful limbo. Push the button!

Robsia - I think depression is a very viable theory. In hindsight, I am pretty certain my wife was suffering some post-partum depression during her affair. It doesn't ever justify an affair, but can be a contributor to the bad thinking and decision making. Is your husband doing any type of IC? It's great that you want to help your husband grow into a better man, just be careful you don't slide into an enabler role. It's one thing to empathize with his struggles and support him, but it is quite another to tolerate continued bad behavior. It's a tough line to walk, but one I am guessing you are ready and willing to walk.

On a completely unrelated note, I have some advice for all of you reconcilers - if you don't already own a green or red egg (Weber or Kamado Joe ceramic smokers/grill), you must go acquire one. Today. It is critical for your future happiness. 

My wife gave me a Kamado Joe for Christmas, and I have been playing with it the last two weeks as winter has finally begun to loosen its clutches. In the last two weeks I have smoked a brisket and pork ribs, baked wood fired pizzas, grilled pork chops and flat iron steaks and even seared ahi tuna steaks. This thing is nuts! 

So there ya go - an important tool to growing old and fat together is a ceramic smoker. 

Disclaimer: acquiring one of these fantastic devices should be counter-balanced with an extra day at the gym each week. Failure to do so may mean never seeing your feet again.


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## Robsia

^He has just started anger management counselling. He had his first session the other week, sort of an initial get to know you thing. She sent him for the blood tests to rule out a physical cause, and, now that we know that isn't the case, he will have weekly sessions - the first is booked for May 3rd. I hope this will help him, I really do. Whilst I will support him in any way I can, I can't do it for him.


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## EI

Hey Reconcilers, I'm going to take a little break from TAM. It might be for a few days, a few weeks or 5 minutes.... I don't know. I'm mentally and physically exhausted and life is pulling me in a thousand different directions. I'm not taking a break from working on my marriage, I just need some time to handle some other very real and complex life issues that B1, the children and I are facing. 

The R thread isn't about me, B1 or anyone in particular...... it's about everyone, so I hope that everyone here continues to support and encourage one another every step of the way.

I love you guys,
Take care,
~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Sorry to hear that EI and I look forward to seeing you again when you're back. 

I hope everyone else sticks around - I for one still need a lot of support right now from people who understand exactly what it's like, and I'm not getting it anywhere but here.


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## SomedayDig

EI said:


> Hey Reconcilers, I'm going to take a little break from TAM. It might be for a few days, a few weeks or 5 minutes.... I don't know. I'm mentally and physically exhausted and life is pulling me in a thousand different directions. I'm not taking a break from working on my marriage, I just need some time to handle some other very real and complex life issues that B1, the children and I are facing.
> 
> The R thread isn't about me, B1 or anyone in particular...... it's about everyone, so I hope that everyone here continues to support and encourage one another every step of the way.
> 
> I love you guys,
> Take care,
> ~EI
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You and B1 have been posting for quite some time. You've posted about the good times and you've posted about the difficult times. You've posted for others when they were down to offer encouragement. 

Here's a funny coincidence. Since a couple weeks ago when I decided I was ready to change it all, I stopped taking my medication. I had been on Welbutrin since last September or so. I stopped cold turkey. I simply decided that I didn't need the medication any longer. It served its purpose. It serves none now.

As with my medication, I notice how much more calm I feel when I stopped feeling a "need" to be on TAM. I write now hoping to help others, but not evey day and not every thread in CWI. 

I feel better without it.

Regret and I talked about things yesterday when she got home from work. It was a good conversation. We talked a bit about how our lives have changed and how we are going to continue to change them for the better. We talked about our upcoming move and how nervous but excited we are about it.

EI, I know B1 started this thread and it has grown a ton and helped so many people, even the ones who never post in it. I'm pretty sure that somewhere in both of your heads, there is a certain amount of responsibility you might feel offering words of encouragement and help and keeping this thread going.

This thread will be here for a long, long time. That I can assure you.

It's time for you two to go and take care of each other.


----------



## jupiter13

Wow and I look for forward to reading B1 and E1's posts. The two of you have given me the most hope. I will miss reading your posts B1 but I understand the need to take care of life's responsibilities before all else. I certainly hope you find pleasure in doing so.


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia, I understand that a lot of male depression goes undiagnosed because so many men can't/don't label themselves as sad - maybe it's in there somewhere, but it may be buried so deep that even they aren't fully aware of it. 

But what strong, negative emotion do men see modeled for them in movies, TV, maybe their own families, and in other so-called "manly" men? ANGER. That one they've been trained well in, and if they're depressed - well, just take that negativity over the top. It's got to go somewhere!!

Sometimes it's only a milder version - doesn't meet the criteria for major depression, and doesn't need medication. But IC would certainly help in such cases, and Anger Management classes would help as well. But there are probably a lot of men (and women) who are walking around with major depression and who don't know it, who could benefit from the combination of medication and counseling, which has a better outcome than relying on either kind of treatment alone.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Ha ha - Dig, you and I were both posting about meds at the same time. You about ditching yours while I was talking about the people who have no idea that they might benefit from them. I'm glad you reached the point where you no longer need them. If you feel better without them, then you must have had some side effects that you were putting up with. If they're just minor and you get big benefits, it's OK, but when there's no more benefit, ANY side effects aren't worth it!

So glad to hear you're feeling better!


----------



## SomedayDig

hopefulgirl said:


> Ha ha - Dig, you and I were both posting about meds at the same time. You about ditching yours while I was talking about the people who have no idea that they might benefit from them. I'm glad you reached the point where you no longer need them. If you feel better without them, then you must have had some side effects that you were putting up with. If they're just minor and you get big benefits, it's OK, but when there's no more benefit, ANY side effects aren't worth it!
> 
> So glad to hear you're feeling better!


I guess I should have included the caveat that medication CAN BE GOOD!! Hell, without it, some can't function well at all during this sh-t. I can honestly say that they helped me by taking the edge off and calming my thoughts. That is what I needed

I simply don't need that now. My thoughts are more calm and I am less on edge.


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## calvin

Take a break EI,you and B1 spend some time together,Tams is a blessing and a curse,we all know that.
While EI is out I will be taking over and calling the shots here,I expect everyone to obey me without question and do as told.
I run a tight ship but I'm fair,don't cross me and we all will be fine.
Respect my authority people!
Wow,a thread coup.
There is a new sheriff in town.

I got this EI.



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I found a gavel also.
Silence on the thread!!!
BANG!!! BANG!!!!

I like this new power.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

The trip was great but it was really hard seeing Mamaw's reaction when I told her what I did to Calvin. I got through it and am proud of myself for confessing it to her after Calvin and his "brother" said "shhhh". She doesn't know. Well I felt she needed to know. She was very displeased with me. Anyway, she told me she loves me and I best not do it again, she is a tough woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> The trip was great but it was really hard seeing Mamaw's reaction when I told her what I did to Calvin. I got through it and am proud of myself for confessing it to her after Calvin and his "brother" said "shhhh". She doesn't know. Well I felt she needed to know. She was very displeased with me. Anyway, she told me she loves me and I best not do it again, she is a tough woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its alright,she wasn't happy about it but she knows you're worth a chance honey.
They have faith in you and so do I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

calvin said:


> Take a break EI,you and B1 spend some time together,Tams is a blessing and a curse,we all know that.
> While EI is out I will be taking over and calling the shots here,I expect everyone to obey me without question and do as told.
> I run a tight ship but I'm fair,don't cross me and we all will be fine.
> Respect my authority people!
> Wow,a thread coup.
> There is a new sheriff in town.
> 
> I got this EI.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Crack that whip Calvin !

Will miss you E1 but totally understand.
Peace be with you and your lovely family
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Crack that whip Calvin !
> 
> Will miss you E1 but totally understand.
> Peace be with you and your lovely family
> Xx
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You spoke out of turn dg,I'll let you off with a warning.....this time.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Ouch!
Verbal warning
Written warning
Then I'm banished into oblivion!
Won't happen again Sir!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> The trip was great but it was really hard seeing Mamaw's reaction when I told her what I did to Calvin. I got through it and am proud of myself for confessing it to her after Calvin and his "brother" said "shhhh". She doesn't know. Well I felt she needed to know. She was very displeased with me. Anyway, she told me she loves me and I best not do it again, she is a tough woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That was really brave of you CSS. My mother was told about Hs A from the beginning. I couldn't hide it from her, I was so distressed and needed her support. She gave me her support and was so upset with H, but, she has welcomed him back,with the same warning, but also with love. She loves him like a son and has respected my decision to R.

P.s Don't let Calvins new found status on the thread go to his head. Keep him in check!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> That was really brave of you CSS. My mother was told about Hs A from the beginning. I couldn't hide it from her, I was so distressed and needed her support. She gave me her support and was so upset with H, but, she has welcomed him back,with the same warning, but also with love. She loves him like a son and has respected my decision to R.
> 
> P.s Don't let Calvins new found status on the thread go to his head. Keep him in check!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people deserve that chance dg,it would be wrong not to give another chance to make things right.
Its nice when family feels the same way and they respect the decision to R.

Don't worry,I won't let my new power go to my head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

I've a couple of questions for my TAM friends. 1. How many of you have tattoos? 2. How many of you had second thoughts about the tattoos, after you got them? I'm thinking that Sweetie and I overdid the Margaritas and might have done something foolish.


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## TCSRedhead

Rookie4 said:


> I've a couple of questions for my TAM friends. 1. How many of you have tattoos? 2. How many of you had second thoughts about the tattoos, after you got them? I'm thinking that Sweetie and I overdid the Margaritas and might have done something foolish.


I have two tattoos. One on my lower back (yes, a tramp stamp - don't judge! LOL!) from the first weekend I spent in CA with C&B. While I don't care for the actual tattoo - the memory of that weekend is a beautiful thing. It was the same weekend that I decided to give him my heart and move out to be with him.

My second tattoo is on my left forearm. It's three butterflies for the three friends we lost in a year (our best man, maid of honor and mother to my daughter's bf). Every day I see it and it reminds me to live life for today. Life is brief but very beautiful. Spread your wings and soar.


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## jupiter13

If the tattoos aren't done badly they can be real cool. I have two well one now. However I can remember getting mine sounds as if you two got off easy if you don't remember. So give what did you get?


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## Rookie4

TCSRedhead said:


> I have two tattoos. One on my lower back (yes, a tramp stamp - don't judge! LOL!) from the first weekend I spent in CA with C&B. While I don't care for the actual tattoo - the memory of that weekend is a beautiful thing. It was the same weekend that I decided to give him my heart and move out to be with him.
> 
> My second tattoo is on my left forearm. It's three butterflies for the three friends we lost in a year (our best man, maid of honor and mother to my daughter's bf). Every day I see it and it reminds me to live life for today. Life is brief but very beautiful. Spread your wings and soar.


I think that this is great, and don't think that your Tramp Stamp reflects badly on you. Sweetie got somewhat more than that.


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## Rookie4

jupiter13 said:


> If the tattoos aren't done badly they can be real cool. I have two well one now. However I can remember getting mine sounds as if you two got off easy if you don't remember. So give what did you get?


I'm not going to say just yet. I will probably get hooted by everybody.


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## daisygirl 41

Rookie4 said:


> I'm not going to say just yet. I will probably get hooted by everybody.


Ha ha! Seemed like a good idea at the time eh? Don't regret it. I've got a few tattoos that I got done a very long time ago. I don't regret them, in fact they just remind me of the times in my life when I lived a bit more reckless and not over analysing everything to death.

H also had a tattoo done when we first Reconciled. I was going to get one too but I think I would have regretted having 'mother****er' up my arm!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

I don't have any tattoos but Lister got one - my name across his back a few months after DDay. 

It was me that suggested it - I'd found out that he'd kept in touch with his AP for a while after DDay and started to really experience the torture of TT as I'd continued to uncover more details. I know he *really* dislikes them and the pain factor was also significant. Him doing it gave me some reassurance that he was genuine in his desire to reconcile; and the part of me that was unsure was thinking that if he went back to his AP she'd not be forgetting about me anytime soon. 

I'm not exactly proud of this, but it was absolutely necessary for me at the time. I was drowning and it gave me a tangible thing to cling to to help me keep going.


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## SomedayDig

I have 6 and Regret has 6.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

So we had a bad FT convo last night. It always seems to be Tuesdays – I don’t know why. I asked him where he was taking me on Saturday and he joked about taking me to McDonald’s. I did know he was joking, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I started to say “I bet you never took HER to McDonalds!” I did stop myself after the first few words, but it left me feeling upset. He picked up on my change of mood and started to question me.

I didn’t tell him what I had said but somehow the subject turned to money and that bloody speaker he bought after he’d told me he was short of cash.

Of course he turned it around to me being money-grabbing and trying to tell him how to spend his money, which isn’t the case. 

What had happened was, he had said he was short of cash, then I said that we didn’t necessarily have to go out on date nights every night if he couldn’t afford it, it was more about spending time together as a couple. If I was after his cash he wouldn’t have said that, would I? But then the next thing I know he’s gone and splashed stupid money on a bloody iphpne speaker that he doesn’t need. So that tells me that he DID have the money, he would just rather spend it on a new shiny toy for himself, than on making me feel special and fixing our marriage. I felt unprioritised.

I tried to explain this but all he hears is “You don’t spend enough money on me. How dare you buy anything for yourself!” which isn’t what I was saying.

Then he told me he was disappointed in me. HE was disappointed in ME! When I reminded him that he was supposed to be impressing me, he said he shouldn’t have to throw money at me to impress me. I agreed and said there are lots of other ways you could impress me. What else could you do? And he said not a word. Not a bloody word. Just stared at me with cold eyes. Then I started to cry. After a while I calmed down and said something like “This is why we shouldn’t have emotional FT conversations – you can’t give me a hug when I feel better.” Then I said this was probably a good time to reassure me that he did want this R to work, and that I was a priority. And he said that I’d pissed him off and he didn’t feel like reassuring me right now.

So then I got angry, saying that he had pissed me off big time and I try so hard to hide it, and to control it and to be all nice and forgiving about it. Then he trots out his usual “It’s not a fvcking competition!” so I said that if it were I’d bloody win! I said why did he get the right to be pissed off about every little thing when I had to try to control my pissed off-ness about the MASSIVE things that he did. When did I get to be pissed off. He said “Whenever, but I’m getting tired now.” I can recognise a dismissal as well as anyone else so I just said “Fine, I’ll talk to you tomorrow” and hung up.

I did text him shortly after to say “Night xx” and he texted it back to me, but apart from that we haven’t communicated.

It’s so bloody hard and I don’t know whether I want the R because I love him, or because I’m just so scared that no one will ever want me. I was never any good at relationships – he was the only one that ever worked out. He was the only man who ever wanted to marry me, and look where that ended up. I never thought I’d be scared to be alone, I was always alone before, I know I can cope. But it’s not about coping. I want someone to love me, and I’m not sure anyone else ever will, so that’s why I’m trying to save this. But that’s not a good reason is it?


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## calvin

Morning guys,hope everyone is good today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer

daisygirl 41 said:


> I was going to get one too but I think I would have regretted having 'mother****er' up my arm!


:lol::rofl::lol::rofl::lol:

Too funny, DG.

I have no tattoos. Nothing against them, just have never been moved to get one. 

Some day, maybe...

.


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## TCSRedhead

Rookie- here's my forearm tattoo (ignore the bazillion freckles):


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## TCSRedhead

What I really hear in your posts Robsia, is that you don't feel that he's making you a priority. To be honest, the behavior that you're describing still sounds very selfish on his part.

At this point, he should be showing deep remorse and a lot of action in an effort to WIN you back, including taking you to dinner (not fast food), maybe some flowers, etc. in an effort to make you feel special.


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## old timer

TCSRedhead said:


> (ignore the bazillion freckles)


Comes w the territory, Red

*(I happen to love em)*

.


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## Mrs_Mathias

I have two tattoos. One on my lower back that was designed by Matt and one on my chest. After D-Day 1, Matt and I discussed having my back tattoo removed as part of the penalty for having betrayed him. He didn't want me to have a symbol of him or his work on my body. I prefer to keep it, it means a great deal to me, not only as a representation of Matt, but as a symbol of my life and changes at the time I got it.

I can't think of anyone I know off the top of my head who regrets their tattoos. But most people that I know don't have vanity tattoos - they tend to be representational of a specific person, time, or life change. So, even if you don't like the image in a few years, Rookie, chances are, you will always treasure the moment that it represents, which will make the image valuable as well.


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## ChangingMe

Hello all. Sorry to be MIA. It's partly due to not having the time to post and partly to not having the energy to do so. I will get on here and click to write, and then I just don't have it in me. 

I am reading and thinking about you all. Maybe I'll be back to my long-winded self soon. Take care, TAMers.


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## SomedayDig

ChangingMe said:


> Hello all. Sorry to be MIA. It's partly due to not having the time to post and partly to not having the energy to do so. I will get on here and click to write, *and then I just don't have it in me.
> *
> I am reading and thinking about you all. Maybe I'll be back to my long-winded self soon. Take care, TAMers.


As I stated to EI...then don't post. Everyone needs to take time away from TAM every now and then. Guess what? At some point you won't ever even come here. That's a day I honestly can't wait for...when I just don't even come here.


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia -

I think the money issue is a touchy subject. It is in my marriage, too. Interestingly, there is a term, "financial infidelity" which refers to partners not being fully honest with each other about their spending habits and their individual stashes of money. And not being in full agreement about discretionary funds is a hot button issue for many couples.

This may be too hot to handle for the two of you outside of MC. You may want to consider putting on the brakes when it comes to any comments or questions around this subject if you're not in with your counselor. I'm just thinking your relationship may be too fragile right now at this stage to go into this minefield without professional support.


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## calvin

Had a big trigger today.
Mothers Day is coming up and I always do the majority of the parties,birthdays,Thanksgiving and all that happy crap.
If I don't then Mom and Dads birthdays and other special days won't be celebrated.
I remembered when CSS was neck deep in her A how she ordered me to not have my parents birthdays or Mother/Fathers Day anymore.I told her to stuff it last year when she said that,I'll divorce before I turn my back on my parents.
She still doesn't care for the parties but that's too bad,I won't betray Mom and Dad.
Of course she is willing to have them again,yeah its a lot of work and I wish my siblings would pick up the slack but that's not going to happen.
Too know she doesn't want to do this hurts but it is what it is.
I did beat back the trigger for the most part but it is lingering a little.
Life is really messed up,isn't it?
Makes me wonder why even try sometimes.
I'm a little off in the head today,I'll hit the ground running tomorrow.
Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Well, he did text me this morning, but I left my phone in the car so I didn’t get it for an hour. It wasn't much, just a “How are you this morning? Xx” We exchanged a couple of non-committal texts but then he was driving home so I didn’t bother him till he got home, then I sent him a “Do u want to talk? xx”

He had paperwork to do but he texted me later saying he was free so I went down. He was still cool to me when I got there. We talked a bit. I tried to tell him again what I had meant by feeling the way I felt about the speaker. He still didn’t get it, no matter how clearly and calmly I tried to explain. It still came back to him feeling a) I was trying to tell him how to run his finances and b) being money-grabbing.

We talked about it for a bit then we moved on to my reactions being based in insecurity about how he really feels about the R. I started to get upset and tried to make him see again what I needed, that even when he was annoyed with me, I needed him to reassure me that we were okay, just to give me a hug if nothing else. He told me he couldn’t when he was pissed off with me. I told him that I was really trying to get over how much I was pissed off with him about the A, and if I could try to get over his massive wrong-doing, why couldn’t he try to get over any minor misdemeanour of mine. He was sat the whole time, arms crossed, totally turned away from me, no open body language at all. He said he could only apologise so many times. I told him, nicely, that that wasn't true, that every time he apologised, or hugged me, or told me that he loved me, or gave me some kind of reassurance, it was a little brick in rebuilding our marriage. But every time he pulled away from me, or gave me a cold look or did something negative, it knocked it down a little bit again. I told him clearly and exactly what my needs were, and that I needed him to reassure me even when he was annoyed with me, especially when he was annoyed with me, in fact.

He said he didn’t think he could do that. I told him I needed him to do that. I was crying at this point, asking for hugs, asking him, almost begging him to make me feel better. He did not.

I told him that this was something I needed him to do in order to fix our marriage. I had to go then to pick the girls up from school, but he followed me out into the hall and said “That sounds like an ultimatum.” And he said it in a “I don’t respond to ultimatums” tone of voice. I said it wasn't an ultimatum or a threat, just a consequence, that I needed him to meet my needs otherwise our marriage would never be fixed. He said there was no difference between a consequence and a threat. I just looked at him, amazed, then told him I’d speak to him later and left.

We texted some later, but it wasn’t good and he made me wait for a LONG time between texts, two hours for the last one. He ended up saying that he needed time to get over being annoyed. I didn’t reply.

My friend came round tonight. I told her the story of the speaker, and how it made me feel. She totally got it, straightaway. If she gets it, why can’t he?

I’m really not sure I need a husband who won’t give his crying, betrayed wife a hug when she asks for one, because he sees it as emotional blackmail, or manipulation – both of which charges he has levelled at me in the past – since D-day – when all I’ve wanted was a hug. I don’t understand how he can put his stubborn need not to ‘give in to me’ over making me feel better after what he’s done. I think he thinks he somehow ‘loses’ and I ‘win’ if he does what I want.

I don’t think he is capable of doing what I need to make this R work. I think he wants to, when it suits him, i.e. when everything is going well and I am being wonderful and forgiving. But when I’m a crying, snivelling mess of insecurity, begging him to make me feel better, he doesn’t want to know.

I’ve had enough.

I didn’t FT him tonight. I don’t want to talk to him.


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## TCSRedhead

I hate to say this Robsia but it doesn't sound like he's willing to invest the effort that reconciliation will really take. It takes years of hard work and effort from BOTH of you and I only see you putting that out there.


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## SomedayDig

TCSRedhead said:


> I hate to say this Robsia but it doesn't sound like he's willing to invest the effort that reconciliation will really take. It takes years of hard work and effort from BOTH of you and I only see you putting that out there.


Eeeeyup.

BOTH parties need to be _fully_ on board if there is any remote chance at reconciliation.

The slightest balk. The slightest wince at the work...well, it ain't good.


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## happyman64

calvin said:


> Had a big trigger today.
> Mothers Day is coming up and I always do the majority of the parties,birthdays,Thanksgiving and all that happy crap.
> If I don't then Mom and Dads birthdays and other special days won't be celebrated.
> I remembered when CSS was neck deep in her A how she ordered me to not have my parents birthdays or Mother/Fathers Day anymore.I told her to stuff it last year when she said that,I'll divorce before I turn my back on my parents.
> She still doesn't care for the parties but that's too bad,I won't betray Mom and Dad.
> Of course she is willing to have them again,yeah its a lot of work and I wish my siblings would pick up the slack but that's not going to happen.
> Too know she doesn't want to do this hurts but it is what it is.
> I did beat back the trigger for the most part but it is lingering a little.
> Life is really messed up,isn't it?
> Makes me wonder why even try sometimes.
> I'm a little off in the head today,I'll hit the ground running tomorrow.
> Ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Consider this a slap on your head to get you back on track.










Have a great Mothers Day. Plan it! Do it! and the two of you own it together!

I think Rookie would tell you the same thing.

HM64


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Consider this a slap on your head to get you back on track.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a great Mothers Day. Plan it! Do it! and the two of you own it together!
> 
> I think Rookie would tell you the same thing.
> 
> HM64


Oh we are Hm,It was a trigger,that's all.
It was a bad memory but that's as far as it goes,some new better memories on the way.
This won't hold me or CSS back,we've come too far.Nothing can ruin what has been built so far.
What would Louis do?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

> What would Louis do?


Very wise of you Calvin. Very wise of you. You just made me very proud.

I think I have something in my eyes.......


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## CantSitStill

Doesn't mean I have to like parties, I never have and never will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Very wise of you Calvin. Very wise of you. You just made me very proud.
> 
> I think I have something in my eyes.......


Its not what I think it is,is it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

calvin said:


> Its not what I think it is,is it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fly in the eye?
Its all good man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> Doesn't mean I have to like parties, I never have and never will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tend to side with you CSS.

But I happened to marry an Irish girl from an Irish family that is tighter than any Italian family you will ever meet. ANd I am Italian.

They love to socialize. My wife eats with her parents almost every night, our kids are there. Her two sisters and brother are there almost every night with their kids as well.

So I have learned to like parties or holidays.

In fact my wife and I hosted Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter and Mothers Day for over 11 years with about 30 relatives (all my wifes side) over my house regularly.

So I have come to enjoy holidays and all the family that comes with it.

Did I mention I live across the street from my inlaws.

You should see what happens when I light my barbecue......

Have a good night.


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> I tend to side with you CSS.
> 
> But I happened to marry an Irish girl from an Irish family that is tighter than any Italian family you will ever meet. ANd I am Italian.
> 
> They love to socialize. My wife eats with her parents almost every night, our kids are there. Her two sisters and brother are there almost every night with their kids as well.
> 
> So I have learned to like parties or holidays.
> 
> In fact my wife and I hosted Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter and Mothers Day for over 11 years with about 30 relatives (all my wifes side) over my house regularly.
> 
> So I have come to enjoy holidays and all the family that comes with it.
> 
> Did I mention I live across the street from my inlaws.
> 
> You should see what happens when I light my barbecue......
> 
> Have a good night.


Wow,across the street? That's cool.Try having Southerners for family,they will make you enjoy company like it or not.
They do it in numbers too.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

7000 posts. Congrats Calvin. EI would be pissed if she was posting right now!! :rofl:


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## CantSitStill

SomedayDig said:


> 7000 posts. Congrats Calvin. EI would be pissed if she was posting right now!! :rofl:


LOL. Well she missed out. Anyway we have every holiday and his parents birthdays for about 20 people..the only holiday we don't have here is Christmas. It's always us throwing the parties and putting out most of the money for these parties...I find it unfair...I refuse to have Christmas here so we have it at his parents and me and one of his sisters are the only ones that help clean up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> 7000 posts. Congrats Calvin. EI would be pissed if she was posting right now!! :rofl:


Really??
I didn't know,well...being the new Sheriff on the thread and all.....oh crap! Here comes B1!
I'm outta here!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Rut roh Calvin's in trouble ....nananananana! Lolo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

L
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> 7000 posts. Congrats Calvin. EI would be pissed if she was posting right now!! :rofl:


:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono:


calvin said:


> Really??
> I didn't know,well...being the new Sheriff on the thread and all.....oh crap! Here comes B1!
> I'm outta here!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:FIREdevil:I'll be back before the 8,000th post...... and it had better be waiting for me!:rules:

Calvin, don't let all of this power go to your head....... It's only temporary.....


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## CantSitStill

EI said:


> :nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono:
> 
> 
> :FIREdevil:I'll be back before the 8,000th post...... and it had better be waiting for me!:rules:haha...lol
> 
> Calvin, don't let all of this power go to your head....... It's only temporary.....


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Lol...haha..behave Calvin
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Don't make me do something I don't want too do EI!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia said:


> ...when he was on the phone with his GP, the doctor asked him some questions and suggested clinical depression may be a factor.


This is not a minor thing. R is very difficult for any couple, with an emotional roller coaster to be expected, not to mention some blow ups along the way. But if one of you has clinical depression that is untreated, and that person has anger management issues as well, he is not going to be ready and able to jump wholeheartedly into R. 

You don't have much to give a relationship if you are running on empty, and that may be what is going on if he has untreated depression. Not that he shouldn't try at all, but I'm thinking the expectations of "doing the heavy lifting" and being thoughtful and proactive and not pouty may be unreasonable for someone who's depressed. 

Also, the anger management counseling may have limited success if he actually needs medication as a "foundation" for the counseling. Depressed people aren't able to focus as well, and don't "use" their counseling as well as they can once their meds start to "kick in." (Even before the meds kick in, though, counselors can help them to "hang in there" while they wait for the meds to start working, because they can take a few weeks to start taking effect.) 

I think following up with that GP re the clinical depression would be wise before giving up all hope.


----------



## Rookie4

I actually blame my TAM amigos and amigas for this. Everybody said we should go to Kelly's for M's. We did and it went downhill from there. So it's all you guys' fault if Sweetie can never wear a thong or strpless gown again, nor can I take off my shirt without comment. What I DO know is that Sweetie belongs to me, and if you don't believe me, all you have to do is read her shoulder and A**, cheeks. My heart belongs to Sweetie and it says so on my chest. Hooboy!! The woman who did all this charged a fortune, but we will, for sure, remember Key West.


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## Mrs_Mathias

EI and B1, thanks for all the inspiration you've given by sharing your journey so far with us. You will be missed, but it's definitely time for you two to focus on the present and the future that you are building together. Sending positive vibes for the journey ahead! 

CM, I know how you feel right now. Thinking of you and DD. take care of yourself, and when you're ready to talk, you know where to find us. Hugs to you!

Robsia, I'm so sorry to hear that your husband is not willing/able to work with you in R right now. I have to admit, I would give ANYTHING to have Matt be as certain about working on R as you are. although, I put him through two hellacious D-Days, so if your husband hasn't continued the affair, he's doing better than I did. But, IMO, he needs a substantial attitude change if you two are going to be able to build a better relationship together. Honestly, I'm surprised it didn't happen immediately when you kicked him out, that was honestly the biggest shock to my system and forced me into an instant and major change in perspective and priority. It's said over and over on many of ese threads, but I think there's real truth to the BS needing to be ready to lose the relationship for there to be a chance of saving it. What would happen if you didn't initiate all this contact for a few days? Would he FT you to check in? Has he had e chance to really see what it means to NOT have you there for him? It's hard and scary, but if you don't want him as he is, then he needs to see that NOT changing is going to cost him you. You will be ok, with or without him. You were before you met, and you can be again. I truly hope he opens his eyes and sees what an amazing opportunity you are giving him with the chance to reconcile. And I wish you the best as you go forward on whatever path is the best for you.

Calvin and CSS, I'm so happy to hear that your trip went well and that you have taken another big step forward as a couple. Your humor and daily banter always makes me smile. But Calvin, you are not the Governor, so don't go getting any delusions of grandeur now that EI's taking a break!

TCSRedhead, DG, Margrace, and everyone, it's good hearing from you, even when it's just a little update. I think Dig said it best, that he looks forward to a time when he doesn't come here anymore, and I wish that for all of you as you heal each day. But I am so grateful that you are here to lend wisdom, support, perspective, and hope. God know we all have days where we need it!

Rookie, I think that's awesome about the tattoos! I knew your trip would be memorable for you and Sweetie, but had no idea how indelible! 

---------------------------------------------

Life here is still up and down. Matt has been facing a tough two weeks at work, culminating in a big event tomorrow. We had a great week together last week, but the recent weekend and this week has been tough. I hope that once the stress of tomorrow is past and we get closer to the end of the year we can get back on an upswing. 

There's just a lot of triggers that are looming in the present and future, and it's hard to know how to best approach them. We had an appointment on Monday for an ultrasound, and I know it's hard for Matt to be with me sometimes. He still feels trapped, and ashamed that we are having another child. I don't know how to help with the trapped feeling. I want to show him that I am here for him, that I'm trying to help make decisions and support options that are truly best for HIM, whatever they are. But I am not going to initiate a divorce. I don't believe that's best for us or our son and baby to come. But how else can I help him find peace with our circumstances?

I know being in limbo is weighing on us both, and is exhausting Matt. I don't know what it will take for him to find the choice that's right for him, and feel settled pursuing a particular path for the time being. On good days, he seems to enjoy our family and time together, and be what I perceive as loving and happy to be together. But on bad days he says that he hates always thinking about the affair, feeling crappy for being with me, and then I don't know which is more "real". The way he acts in the moment when we are having good times, or the way he remembers it after when he is feeling angry, hurt, and depressed?

I work every day to create the kind of relationship that I would like us to have. I know since my reckoning in November that I have made consistent and lasting change in my choices, observation/awareness, and priorities. I'm nowhere near perfect at it, but I really do think that I am giving my all to my family now. But I know at some point it will take two to sustain and grow our relationship. Matt has been truly wonderful in so many ways... Just allowing me back, being willing to be in limbo, is such a major gift to me. I want to make sure that I am doing everything possible to show my gratitude for that daily. But I also hope that the time will come when he feels ready and able to move forward with me, to remember the past, but reach for a happy future. I think we are so capable of it, in so many ways. If we can just get there.


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## Rookie4

Thanks, MM. I think we've done something that will amuse us for quite a while. 
About you and your renewed commitment and improved attitude and performance. What YOU think of it isn't as relevant as what Matt thinks , is it? Ask him if HE feels you are doing enough. You have said that you want the marriage to remain, but is that what he needs? Try to think outside of your own feelings. He very probably does feel trapped and why shouldn't he? The "good " days are your opinion. I'm betting that he is acting the part, but that his heart isn't in it. You both need to be prepared if divorce is the only remaining option. Keeping the family together is important, but not at the expense of a happier future apart. Some wounds cannot be healed and this is especially hard if the person who is trying to do the healing, is the same one who inflicted the wounds. I've said it before, submit yourself to Matt's judgement and let him be your guide. Do nothing without his agreement.


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## Mrs_Mathias

I feel like i constantly ask Matt what i can do, how i can help, and he usually says there's nothing at that moment. He also, on one of our "good" days last week, walkedup to me, kissed me by his own initiation, and said he hoped the "new" me was real because he really liked her. I'm happy to submit to him and his judgement about our relationship, but am not getting any guidance. He doesn't know what he wants, or at least, his wants change with his daily mood, it seems. I have asked him if he is acting on "good" days. He says no, but that its not fair to me to say and do those positive things when they are followed by bad days. I think it's perfectly fair. I don't mind going through the ups and downs as long as we are communicating about them. I think the fact that he has not filed for divorce over the last 5 months is some evidence to support that at least part of him isn't ready for that choice, and is perhaps still wanting a relationship. I know how I feel doesn't matter. But I continually come here looking for ways to help Matt sort out what he feels. I think your new relationship with Sweetie is wonderful, Rookie. But I think it's a very different animal for people who don't take time away from each other after the affair. You needed and wanted to heal on your own with no intention of reconnecting with Sweetie, if I understand your story correctly. But everyday, EI, CSS, CM, myself and others have to attempt to work for and with our spouses as they struggle with the hurt we've caused. Those of us in these situations are told by others that we can help heal the hurt we caused, that those efforts are essential on a day to day basis. Ultimately, I can and will accept and survive whatever choice Matt makes. I just want to support him as he struggles with making it, that's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I feel like i constantly ask Matt what i can do, how i can help, and he usually says there's nothing at that moment. He also, on one of our "good" days last week, walkedup to me, kissed me by his own initiation, and said he hoped the "new" me was real because he really liked her. I'm happy to submit to him and his judgement about our relationship, but am not getting any guidance. He doesn't know what he wants, or at least, his wants change with his daily mood, it seems. I have asked him if he is acting on "good" days. He says no, but that its not fair to me to say and do those positive things when they are followed by bad days. I think it's perfectly fair. I don't mind going through the ups and downs as long as we are communicating about them. I think the fact that he has not filed for divorce over the last 5 months is some evidence to support that at least part of him isn't ready for that choice, and is perhaps still wanting a relationship. I know how I feel doesn't matter. But I continually come here looking for ways to help Matt sort out what he feels. I think your new relationship with Sweetie is wonderful, Rookie. But I think it's a very different animal for people who don't take time away from each other after the affair. You needed and wanted to heal on your own with no intention of reconnecting with Sweetie, if I understand your story correctly. But everyday, EI, CSS, CM, myself and others have to attempt to work for and with our spouses as they struggle with the hurt we've caused. Those of us in these situations are told by others that we can help heal the hurt we caused, that those efforts are essential on a day to day basis. Ultimately, I can and will accept and survive whatever choice Matt makes. I just want to support him as he struggles with making it, that's all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, in comparison with you, my WH doesn't ask me what he can do to help, at least not of his own accord. When I spell it out for him in great detail what I need him to do, I get excuses as to why he can't do it.

When I try to explain to him what my needs are, he says "What about MY needs. I have needs too, you know!"

When I tell him he has hurt me far more than anything I ever did to him, I get "It's not a f***ing competition."

When I beg him for a hug, when I'm sitting on the sofa crying in front of him, he tells me he won't give in to emotional blackmail.

And when I tell him that if he can't or won't meet my needs then our marriage will never be fixed, he sees it as a threat/ultimatum which naturally he has to resist at all costs. He can't let me win. And the fact that he sees it as a battle to be won, some kind of power struggle makes me think that he actually has no clue what is going on here.

I have had enough. I don't care if he is depressed. He's f***ed up our marriage and I don't want it enough to try any more.


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## daisygirl 41

How can I get my husband to open up to me emotionally?
He won't let me in.
He's very huggy, feely, and likes physical contact, we do a lot of that, but his thoughts are a closed door. It's like pulling teeth!!!
Men- help!!


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## Mrs_Mathias

daisygirl 41 said:


> How can I get my husband to open up to me emotionally?
> He won't let me in.
> He's very huggy, feely, and likes physical contact, we do a lot of that, but his thoughts are a closed door. It's like pulling teeth!!!
> Men- help!!


DG, I used to ask Matt constantly what he was thinking. It was kind of a joke in our early relationship. Since the affair, I've really learned what I want and need to know is how he's feeling. He can give me information about what he's thinking, but that didn't help me understand or know how he was interpreting and reacting to those thoughts, if that makes any sense. So I've changed how I ask for information, and what I'm really looking for. I think you'll have to continue to initiate, I don't know any way to help with that part, but maybe if you think about whether you're really getting the feedback you're looking for it will help you ask more directed questions to get him to share more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Mrs.M and Rosbia,I hope your men start coming around quicker and "get with the program" but everyone is different,men can be stubborn as hell and it may take awhile to wear us down.
Dg,keep up with the hugs and kisses,I was like a rock for awhile with CSS but slowly she got to me,now I look foward to her touch,its the thing I want more than anythink else.
I feel pretty good again,its nice to get this weight off of me,I've been letting go a lot lately and don't feel th need to protect myself anymore.
It still hurts sometimes but nothing like it used to,CSS love is what I need and she really does comfort me,I'm glad she is by my side.
Hope you all have a good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Robsia said:


> See, in comparison with you, my WH doesn't ask me what he can do to help, at least not of his own accord. When I spell it out for him in great detail what I need him to do, I get excuses as to why he can't do it.
> 
> When I try to explain to him what my needs are, he says "What about MY needs. I have needs too, you know!"
> 
> When I tell him he has hurt me far more than anything I ever did to him, I get "It's not a f***ing competition."
> 
> When I beg him for a hug, when I'm sitting on the sofa crying in front of him, he tells me he won't give in to emotional blackmail.
> 
> And when I tell him that if he can't or won't meet my needs then our marriage will never be fixed, he sees it as a threat/ultimatum which naturally he has to resist at all costs. He can't let me win. And the fact that he sees it as a battle to be won, some kind of power struggle makes me think that he actually has no clue what is going on here.
> 
> I have had enough. I don't care if he is depressed. He's f***ed up our marriage and *I don't want it enough to try any more.*


Well...he's not really doing anything to help, so I think it's time for you to move on from him. Time for you to 180 and get on with your life. I usually am a pro-reconciliation dude, except in situations like this - where one party simply has NO desire to work things out.


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## SomedayDig

daisygirl 41 said:


> How can I get my husband to open up to me emotionally?
> He won't let me in.
> He's very huggy, feely, and likes physical contact, we do a lot of that, but his thoughts are a closed door. It's like pulling teeth!!!
> Men- help!!


Oddly enough, it was Regret who was like your husband. As one of my tattoos is a heart on my inner forearm - I wear my heart on my sleeve.

The biggest thing that helped Regret begin to open up was finally allowing herself to be vulnerable with me. She was always (still is to an extent) the "independent woman". But see, even though that is a good strength to have, it is detrimental to a relationship and she was able to "easily" conceal herself from me as she developed and was in her affair.

Once I caught her, that opened a little door. It took me a couple weeks of solid talking to her before the wall finally came down. We sat on the couch and had been talking. After a few moments of quiet, I looked her deep in the eyes and sorrowfully asked, "What happened to you?"

That was it. That was the question that dropped her guard and man you can't imagine the amount of tears and crying and letting go there was. I sat there non-judgemental and held her and listened.

That's really all you can do is give him a safe place. Let him _know_ you're a safe place. He needs to really understand that staying in his head, while safe, is not helpful for the situation. Again, though...you must let him know that he _and_ his thoughts are safe with you.


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## StarGazer101

SomedayDig said:


> That's really all you can do is give him a safe place. Let him _know_ you're a safe place. He needs to really understand that staying in his head, while safe, is not helpful for the situation. Again, though...you must let him know that he _and_ his thoughts are safe with you.


Dig I think you've nailed it again! I hope Lister reads this and _gets it_ we've come so far but he needs to be willing to trust me just as much as he wants me to trust him. I think he is afraid of being vulnerable and that creates distance.


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## SomedayDig

StarGazer101 said:


> Dig I think you've nailed it again! I hope Lister reads this and _gets it_ we've come so far but he needs to be willing to trust me just as much as he wants me to trust him. I think he is afraid of being vulnerable and that creates distance.


Meh...I get lucky with posts sometimes


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## hopefulgirl

StarGazer101 said:


> Dig I think you've nailed it again! I hope Lister reads this and _gets it_ we've come so far but he needs to be willing to trust me just as much as he wants me to trust him. I think he is afraid of being vulnerable and that creates distance.


Dig IS right. I stay in my head a lot too, and it does create distance. Part of the reason is the obsessing - it can go on and on, and there's just no way I'm going to say ALL of this out loud to anyone, my WS included. I try to save it up, come up with a Cliff's Notes version, find the right time, when we're both in the right mood - it's a lot of work on my part, doing all this self-censoring. It's tiring, actually. By holding back, I'm not being my most authentic self, and that prevents closeness.

I haven't even reached the 3 month mark since D-Day, so I'm hoping the obsessing will start to simmer down - or my head will explode!



Doing all you can to assure him that WHATEVER he says (as long as he's not doing it in a mean or disrespectful way) is OK will go a long way to help in this regard. But he may still self-censor. I think time may be an important healer here - the more we see our WS's show us that they are now trustworthy and the less obsessive thoughts we have about the A, the more we BS's can start to relax and stop keeping our guard up. It's not that we don't want emotional intimacy, it's just that we're shell-shocked.


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## calmwinds

Try having Southerners for family,they will make you enjoy company like it or not.
They do it in numbers too.


][/QUOTE]

YUP! We do it in numbers...and now we seem to be starting our own commune. My mom lives in the house with us, MIL lives in a Katrina cottage on our property, and our youngest daughter and my sin-in-law putting a home toward the front of our property. May need to add more acreage before it's over!


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## SomedayDig

A song for those who stay in their heads. I used to. I'm free now. So is Regret.

Outside


And you, can bring me to my knees
Again
All the times,
When I could beg you please-
In vain
All the times
When I felt insecure
For you
And I leave
My burdens at the door

But I'm on the outside
And I'm looking in
I can see through you
See your true colors
'Cause inside you're ugly
You're ugly like me
I can see through you
See to the real you

All the times
That I felt like this won't end
It was for you
And I taste
What I could never have
It was from you
All the times
That I've cried
My intentions
Were full of pride
But I waste
More time than anyone

But I'm on the outside
And I'm looking in
I can see through you
See your true colors
'Cause inside you're ugly
You're ugly like me
I can see through you
See to the real you

All the times
That I've cried
All this wasted
It's all inside
And I feel
All this pain
Stuffed it down
It's back again
And I lie
Here in bed
All alone
I can't mend
But I feel
Tomorrow will be okay

But I'm on the outside
And I'm looking in
I can see through you
See your true colors
'Cause inside you're ugly
You're ugly like me
I can see through you
See to the real you


----------



## daisygirl 41

SomedayDig said:


> Oddly enough, it was Regret who was like your husband. As one of my tattoos is a heart on my inner forearm - I wear my heart on my sleeve.
> 
> The biggest thing that helped Regret begin to open up was finally allowing herself to be vulnerable with me. She was always (still is to an extent) the "independent woman". But see, even though that is a good strength to have, it is detrimental to a relationship and she was able to "easily" conceal herself from me as she developed and was in her affair.
> 
> Once I caught her, that opened a little door. It took me a couple weeks of solid talking to her before the wall finally came down. We sat on the couch and had been talking. After a few moments of quiet, I looked her deep in the eyes and sorrowfully asked, "What happened to you?"
> 
> That was it. That was the question that dropped her guard and man you can't imagine the amount of tears and crying and letting go there was. I sat there non-judgemental and held her and listened.
> 
> That's really all you can do is give him a safe place. Let him _know_ you're a safe place. He needs to really understand that staying in his head, while safe, is not helpful for the situation. Again, though...you must let him know that he _and_ his thoughts are safe with you.


Thankyou Dig. That really helped.
I think H is definitely afraid of opening up. Afraid of rejection. We used to talk and talk a long time again and H would tell me stories and we would share our dreams. I need him to open up to me, I'm afraid of what will happen if he doesn't. I know he's so desperately sorry for hurting me and he just wants it all to go away, but it won't ever go away if we can't share our feelings and our dreams!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> How can I get my husband to open up to me emotionally?
> He won't let me in.
> He's very huggy, feely, and likes physical contact, we do a lot of that, but his thoughts are a closed door. It's like pulling teeth!!!
> Men- help!!


When you figure it out, be sure to let me know, so I can make my wife open up...


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## SomedayDig

daisygirl 41 said:


> it won't ever go away if we can't share our feelings and our dreams!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First, you're very welcome.

Second...when the time is right...and it's quiet and there's nothing that will disturb you both...

Softly say those quoted words to him.


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## cpacan

Just a short update from me. I crossed the 2-year past-DD mark monday. My birthday was saturday, which 2 years ago was the day where I started to suspect something was wrong. So I have basically 3 days in a row, where lots of triggers are lined up.

Last year I had a terrible DD-anniversary, I triggered badly and hoped for support from my wife, but I was left alone most of the with the kids. I remember being very disappointed and sad.

So this year, I took a day off and had planned activities for myself. Things that would remind me to put focus on me, constantly improving myself to be the person I would like to be. Still lots of work to do, but I'm on the right path. So I made it a priority to shape up and direct my thoughts into the right direction. I didn't succeed completely, but mostly - it was actually a good day, one to overcome. My wife didn't mention D-day with a word, me neither, so there was peace in the house.

Doing a lot better that last year, still not certain it's the right direction, but I'm living one day at a time, so I don't speculate much about it.

I have been struggling with the concept of living in the present while still having dreams about the future, because I can't rely on our marriage being strong enough to last forever. I've become very good at focusing on the now, but it left me with the feeling of not having a future - and it has been difficult to plan finances and activities years ahead.

I received an advice from a therapist, that I think is good. Try to dream about a future for myself, what would I like to accomplish, what are my personal goals, what would I like to do in five years etc. I think that could be a turning point for me.

Still haven't found a new job, but still looking, and doing more and more web projects for paying customer, so that's good.


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## Robsia

SomedayDig said:


> Well...he's not really doing anything to help, so I think it's time for you to move on from him. Time for you to 180 and get on with your life. I usually am a pro-reconciliation dude, except in situations like this - where one party simply has NO desire to work things out.


The sad thing is, I think he actually does _want_ to - but he has no idea what he actually has to do in order to make that happen. I think he wants to provided I am all nicey nicey and never have any problem with anything he does, or doesn't do. I'm not to have any expectations, or make any demands, or put any conditions on our R. He's happy to meet my needs, so long as it doesn't put him out to do so.

And that's not good enough.


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## EI

Rookie4 said:


> *I actually blame my TAM amigos and amigas for this. Everybody said we should go to Kelly's for M's. We did and it went downhill from there. So it's all you guys' fault if Sweetie can never wear a thong or strpless gown again, nor can I take off my shirt without comment. *What I DO know is that Sweetie belongs to me, and if you don't believe me, all you have to do is read her shoulder and A**, cheeks. My heart belongs to Sweetie and it says so on my chest. Hooboy!! The woman who did all this charged a fortune, but we will, for sure, remember Key West.



*This is a classic case of blame-shifting right outta the TAM 101 syllabus! *

Alright, I'm outta here, again. I just can't do the heavier stuff, right now.... But, I can always use a good laugh! 

_Buuuuuuut, _if anybody really, really, really needs me..... I am just a "pm" away.....


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## SomedayDig

Robsia said:


> The sad thing is, I think he actually does _want_ to - but he has no idea what he actually has to do in order to make that happen. I think he wants to provided I am all nicey nicey and never have any problem with anything he does, or doesn't do. I'm not to have any expectations, or make any demands, or put any conditions on our R. He's happy to meet my needs, so long as it doesn't put him out to do so.
> 
> And that's not good enough.


The first portion of your first sentence and the rest of the entire post contradict each other to the enth degree.

I'm gonna tell you a secret...shhh...don't anyone else repeat this cuz it will surely f-ck up the program.

Ya ready?


He already knows what to do. They all know what to do. They just don't do it.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> The sad thing is, I think he actually does _want_ to - but he has no idea what he actually has to do in order to make that happen. I think he wants to provided I am all nicey nicey and never have any problem with anything he does, or doesn't do. I'm not to have any expectations, or make any demands, or put any conditions on our R. He's happy to meet my needs, so long as it doesn't put him out to do so.
> 
> And that's not good enough.


I think it's ok to say when something isn't enough.  To be honest, even as the fWW I would be hurt if someone was only willing to meet my needs if it didn't put them out to do so.

To be the one who was betrayed, I would expect my disloyal spouse to bend over backwards to help me through this, ESPECIALLY during the early phase. If this were two years out and it was still this fresh, that may be another matter but this is new. 

You mention anger issues and depression. These are items he CAN fix for himself first. He should be working hard to do that to make him a better person NOT to fix your marriage. My ex went to rehab, got clean and became what appeared to be a great guy. He didn't do it for himself, he did it in an attempt to regain our relationship and thus it failed horribly.


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## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> *I know how I feel doesn't matter. *But I continually come here looking for ways to help Matt sort out what he feels...... everyday, EI, CSS, CM, myself and others have to attempt to work for and with our spouses as they struggle with the hurt we've caused. Those of us in these situations are told by others that we can help heal the hurt we caused, that those efforts are essential on a day to day basis. Ultimately, I can and will accept and survive whatever choice Matt makes. I just want to support him as he struggles with making it, that's all.



Of course how you feel matters. Everyone matters, everyone's feelings count. Hope is what fuels us.... gives us motivation and drive to get up and keep putting one foot in front of the other one more day.... especially when the outcome is so uncertain. Even Matt, despite the pain he is in, understands that how you feel matters: *"I have asked him if he is acting on "good" days. He says no, but that it's not fair to me to say and do those positive things when they are followed by bad days. I think it's perfectly fair. I don't mind going through the ups and downs as long as we are communicating about them." * That tells me that you and Matt, both, care about how the other feels. I think that a healthy reconciliation should look a whole lot like what a healthy marriage should have looked like to begin with.

Okay, I have to back out of here, now. I've really been guarding my own sanity this last week or so. This has all been very difficult..... this reconciliation business. Of course, life in general has been a pretty huge challenge at our house for such a long time..... with no end in sight. I keep thinking that if we actually manage to conquer this beast of infidelity that we might just come out stronger, wiser, better.... somehow. I do know that I love B1..... However much I thought that I loved him.... on our best day, throughout our entire relationship, doesn't even begin to compare with the love that I feel for him now. 

We're learning..... so much, everyday......


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## daisygirl 41

EI said:


> *This is a classic case of blame-shifting right outta the TAM 101 syllabus! *
> 
> Alright, I'm outta here, again. I just can't do the heavier stuff, right now.... But, I can always use a good laugh!
> 
> _Buuuuuuut, _if anybody really, really, really needs me..... I am just a "pm" away.....


Ha Ha that's just what I thought E1!
Was going to make a joke about blameshifting but wasn't sure how well it would go down!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Robsia
He's not a child. He does know what he has to do, he just isn't prepared to do it right now.
You are still trying to take the lead!
Pleas just take a step back and see what he comes up with.
He needs to think he's at risk of losing you, otherwise what does he have to put the effort in for?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> That's really all you can do is give him a safe place. Let him _know_ you're a safe place. He needs to really understand that staying in his head, while safe, is not helpful for the situation. Again, though...you must let him know that he _and_ his thoughts are safe with you.


*THIS*: :iagree:


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## TCSRedhead

MrsM - I can only describe this as I see it in C&B. It was a very raw, very tender wound. Certain times, that wound would get bumped, poke or prodded when he least expected it and infection would set in. The natural protection is to cover it, hide it and hope it stops hurting.

This was the opposite of what was needed. It needed to be uncovered, cleaned out, apply disinfectant and then recover it again.

Because it kept getting reinfected, it took a long time to heal. It left a nasty scar that will always remind us of where we've been and what we've been through. 

It's good to keep communicating (cleaning out the wound), spending those good days just enjoying (covering it up) and to keep making amends (applying the disinfectant). It will heal in time. 

You're in my thoughts a lot lately. Take care of yourself and that baby too.


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## calvin

Think I'm going to snag the 8000th post also and the nineth and then the Grandpapy of them all.
The 10,000th!
After all,I'm in charge here now.Who would like to be second in command?
Sorry EI,when the cats away and all that.
Hope everyone is good this evening,I am.
I pray all of you get to a good place soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I agree EI ... I feel like I love Calvin now more than ever....I am just so much more grateful for him than ever. I know I will never put our marriage second, third or last again but always first!;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrQuatto

EI said:


> :nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono:
> 
> 
> :FIREdevil:I'll be back before the 8,000th post...... and it had better be waiting for me!:rules:
> 
> Calvin, don't let all of this power go to your head....... It's only temporary.....


Am I detecting a coup here?


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I feel like i constantly ask Matt what i can do, how i can help, and he usually says there's nothing at that moment. He also, on one of our "good" days last week, walkedup to me, kissed me by his own initiation, and said he hoped the "new" me was real because he really liked her. I'm happy to submit to him and his judgement about our relationship, but am not getting any guidance. He doesn't know what he wants, or at least, his wants change with his daily mood, it seems. I have asked him if he is acting on "good" days. He says no, but that its not fair to me to say and do those positive things when they are followed by bad days. I think it's perfectly fair. I don't mind going through the ups and downs as long as we are communicating about them. I think the fact that he has not filed for divorce over the last 5 months is some evidence to support that at least part of him isn't ready for that choice, and is perhaps still wanting a relationship. I know how I feel doesn't matter. But I continually come here looking for ways to help Matt sort out what he feels. I think your new relationship with Sweetie is wonderful, Rookie. But I think it's a very different animal for people who don't take time away from each other after the affair. You needed and wanted to heal on your own with no intention of reconnecting with Sweetie, if I understand your story correctly. But everyday, EI, CSS, CM, myself and others have to attempt to work for and with our spouses as they struggle with the hurt we've caused. Those of us in these situations are told by others that we can help heal the hurt we caused, that those efforts are essential on a day to day basis. Ultimately, I can and will accept and survive whatever choice Matt makes. I just want to support him as he struggles with making it, that's all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand that you and EI and CSS and CM want to preserve the marriage, and I also understand that you (pl) are all still living under the same roof. But I'm going with my own experience in saying that is not always the best course.
It's like this.
When, as a kid, you cut yourself, like most kids , you picked at the scab, sometimes your Mom would be constantly changing the bandaids, and cleaning the wound. But the result was usually the same. The more you f**K with something, the longer it will take to heal. Now, if you leave it the hell alone, for a while, it will heal faster.
The conventional wisdom is that the WS and BS need to re-commit to each other, and begin to do things together, etc. But that is just picking the scab of a fresh wound. Taking time away from each other and the inevitable triggers will allow both the WS and BS some time for reflection. The WS can deal with her/his issues, and the BS can have the time and space to decide if he/she wants to R. I'm not saying that it has to be permanent, but a few days or weeks apart, will do wonders at clarifying the mind.


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## Rookie4

WE are not perfect by a damn sight, but Sweetie and I have managed a pretty good Reconciliation, I think. If we had stayed together, would we be here now? I doubt it. I would have never been able to trust her again, and the trigger of her presence, would be a constant reminder of her horrible actions and words. It would have been a constant picking at the wound. Both to me and to her.


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## Robsia

Rookie4 - how long were you apart for?


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## daisygirl 41

Struggling today.
Got a bit of a bashing on another thread. I need to learn to stay here where it's safe.
I did a stupid thing too.
I FB messaged the exOWs H. Nothing nasty just informing him of a work situation that has arisen. I feel bad now.
I need to get myself out of this hole today Or the weekend is going to be ruined.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

daisygirl 41 said:


> Struggling today.
> Got a bit of a bashing on another thread. I need to learn to stay here where it's safe.
> I did a stupid thing too.
> I FB messaged the exOWs H. Nothing nasty just informing him of a work situation that has arisen. I feel bad now.
> I need to get myself out of this hole today OT the weekend is going to be ruined.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm sorry to hear it DG. I hope things can turn around for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> Struggling today.
> Got a bit of a bashing on another thread. I need to learn to stay here where it's safe.
> I did a stupid thing too.
> I FB messaged the exOWs H. Nothing nasty just informing him of a work situation that has arisen. I feel bad now.
> I need to get myself out of this hole today OT the weekend is going to be ruined.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you did well on the other thread. Just weed out the off-topic comments you received. There also was some good advice among the posts IMO.
DG, you're a strong person, and if IRL you are there way you are here, supportive, cheerful and always on the mark, there is absolutely no reason, you shouldn't be happy.
Oh, almost forgot, do you sometimes say "I'd like you to make me a cup of tea"? Or do you expect him to know, that you want one?
If that's no big deal, why does it feel wrong to ask for a hug? Just a thought. Cyberhug for U


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## Rookie4

Robsia said:


> Rookie4 - how long were you apart for?


About 2 1/2 years, Robsia. Some of the posters here know our story and some have talked to Sweetie through PM's. In that time, she has worked harder than I've ever known a WS to work, to better herself, solve her issues and regain my love and trust. And I DO love her and trust her.


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## daisygirl 41

Thanks both.
I just feel like he's got too comfortable. Almost as if its proof enough that he loves me because he's here and he doesn't have to do all the stuff we agreed on any more. I've gone back to being the 'alpha' in the marriage and I don't want that. I want him to take care of me, I want him to make the plans. It's always me driving the train.

Friday is particularly stressful. That take the kids out doing camping skills and orienteering. There's my H, the ex OW and another staff member. It drives me nuts. It's all the stuff that my H loves doing and it kills me that he's doing it with her. I have asked him to tell me every week what the Friday plans are so I can get my head in the right week but he's slipping. I asked him last night what he was doing today and he said ' I don't know, I haven't asked'. I waited this morning for him to txt me his plans for the day and by 9.30 he hadn't let me know, so I had to ASK! I shouldn't have to ask. He knows I cope with things better when I know what's going on.

Do I think it's going to start up again? Honestly I am really unsure at the moment, but I think that's my own paranoia.'its almost as if Its a self fulfilling prophecy and that I'm going to drive him away with my demands and my sorrow. 

We need to talk. I have to ask him to do the things that I need again, but y'know I really feel as if I shouldn't have to ask and I suppose that's the problem.
Cpacan, your cup of tea analogy was a good one. Just to turn it on its head though. He usually asked me if I want a cup of tea! So why can't he ask me what I need emotionally?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

It's been a rough few nights here. Today was the year anniversary of the opening of the school musical last year, a night that my husband had to watch me interact on stage with the soon-to-be OM. Or I guess just OM... we were definitely in an EA at this point, although I didn't realize it at the time. Matt could easily have read any of our written conversations or been in any of our in-person interactions, and I wouldn't have had any concerns. Mostly because I was so blind and stupid as to my own behavior and actions. It's daunting to look ahead at the next six months and realize that everyday is going to be like this to a greater or lesser extent. For other BS's, how did you weather the anniversary time period of the affair? What helped you cope? Tonight Matt feels done. He doesn't want to deal with having a betraying f'd up person like me in his life. I am really grateful that he talked with me about his feelings, even though it is difficult for me to face that possible future. I keep trying to maintain hope, to recognize that he has felt this way before, and I know he will again, even if we manage a successful R. Please, if you would, send some strength his way. Limbo is hard. As hard as I try to empathize, and can "understand" why he feels the way he does, I know I can't fully KNOW the agony he faces. Time sometimes seems like the only factor that can allay some of his fears and hurts, but I can't find a reason that he should offer me that. The evidence he faces is that if he chooses to stay with me, I will discard him as soon as I've "gotten what I want". That all my actions and choices to change the aspects of me that I don't like and that weren't how I saw myself are simply because I haven't "won" yet, and am just reacting, instead of really being introspective and knowing what I truly want.

I feel like that is not accurate, that I have spent more time in self-reflection over the last 5 months than cumulatively over my life, and I wish my actions could more strongly reflect that awareness and conviction. But I can't come up with a way to "prove" it. He would have to choose to take that risk, to see if I'd discard him once I've "won" to discover that I wouldn't. But, clearly, I'm a bad bet. I wronged him so utterly with the affair and false R, that no logical individual would suggest that risk. He says there's nothing I could ever do to make up for what I've done. I know that's true. For those that chose to R, how did you come to terms with that colossal debt? The generosity that you all exhibit by allowing that to be past is mind-boggling to me. 

I want so badly to believe that we can make it, that this is part of the process when you are 5 months out, that Matt can sometimes feel what joy could be ahead for us. But I wonder
If I am just delusional, or too stubborn or selfish to allow myself to give up. And why should Matt have to go through this process, that is clearly so difficult and painful? For our "family"? For our son and baby to come? I know he'll be the best Dad he can, even if we divorce. But I feel like NOTHING can replace those everyday joys, waking up with snuggles, dinner conversations, small discoveries and funny turns of phrase that you miss and don't think to tell the absent partner because they are grains of sand in that day. And that applies to our romantic relationship as well. there are so many precious miniscule moments and interactions that you cant even quantify on their own, but they add up to a mountain of love, friendship, and experience that is as unique as a fingerprint.

Matt uses the phrase grains of sand to describe what happens on a bad day... That there's not necessarily anything momentous that starts the downward spiral, but just one more small thing that was or wasn't done or said or reminded of and then the scale is tipped. I feel like I'm trying to redistribute that sand with chopsticks. I know there's progress, but how long should Matt subject himself to the misery of that tipped scale? I see decades of possible happiness ahead of us. But my vision doesn't help Matt with the absolute unfairness of the pain of the here and now.

I don't know, I'm rambling at this point. Two nights in a row of little sleep turns my brain to mush.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

If I didn't have children I'd pack my bag and walk out.
I've had enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07




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## StarGazer101

daisygirl 41 said:


> If I didn't have children I'd pack my bag and walk out.
> I've had enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 DG My heart just took a dive when I read this. I wish I could hug you and tell you it will all be ok! Of all the people on here you are the last person I would have expected to see these words from, but I shouldn't be surprised - R is so tough and even the best of us get knocked down once in a while. Your strength, courage and dignity have helped and inspired me so much to come to terms with my own situation and to keep pushing through. I know you will get back on your feet after this.

I cannot bear to imagine how hard it must be for you to continue with your H still working with OW (I am absolutely certain that I couldn't) and you must be at your limits - my heart breaks for you. I think though, that your amazing inner strength will lift you from this dark place and you will go on. 

I feel like this often when I contemplate the reality of what has happened, but eventually I find a way to push the despair to the back of my mind and remember how much I love my H and I try to focus on the better future we can have together. I'm sure you will do something similar.

I'm no expert to offer advice, but I think that you have to share the depths of this with your H so that he really understands how much care and support you really need. he maybe has become a little complacent if you appear as strong IRL as you do on here.

I am absolutely rooting for you to get past this - I hope you can feel the massive amount of positive vibes I am sending your way. Keep the faith - it is worth it!


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## calvin

Morning all,
Wow,so much hurt here today,I feel terrible for you all,I know it hurts.
I think Rookie is on to something when he says a little time apart might be a good thing.
Dg,let your man know how you feel and what you would like,us men can be aloof when it comes to things like your needs.
We have to have it told to us many times.
Rosbia,your H doesn't seem to be trying hard,I think a really hard 180 might be in order.
Mrs.M,possitive vibes headed your way,Matt is in a bad place and he needs more time,I pray he comes around.
I do like Rookies idea of a few days away from your spouses,give everyone a little time to reflect.
Praying for you all,I hope things turn around for all of you.
Hang in there,we don't know what next week has in store for all of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> I do like Rookies idea of a few days away from your spouses,give everyone a little time to reflect.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Even though Regret and I are doing quite well, I gotta say that I am looking forward to mid-May. I'm getting in my car and driving to Florida for a week to interview with my new job place and to look at some apartments. I think it will be good for us to have a little bit of time away to reflect on things _before_ our move.

Just a year past Dday. I can't believe we've come so far and are going to continue moving ahead with our lives.


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## Robsia

We were meant to have plans tonight and tomorrow. He was going to come round for tea and stop, then we were going to have a family day tomorrow - we were going out with the kids, then a date night tomorrow night.

I don't know what to do. If I'm doing the 180, then I should wait till he contacts me. But he hasn't since Weds evening, when he said he needed time to "stop being upset".

He's not working today so he's probably still in bed.


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## SomedayDig

This...is the 180. If you're not doing everything on this list then you're not doing the 180. Michelle Weiner Davis wrote the Divorce Busting series - a terrific read. It has helped Regret and I tremendously in our reconciliation work.


1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


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## hopefulgirl

Something's in the air.

I tried to show my WS some cell phone records and discuss. THAT went over like a lead balloon.

I really tried to be gentle with my questions - no "bad dog, see what you did?" attitude. A let's sit down and look at what happened and when, to fill in the blanks for me. I went back to what looked like the beginning of the EA. He got very defensive, he couldn't believe I printed out the cell phone records, said he had no explanation for why he texted her out of the blue in the middle of the night on that business trip after she hadn't contacted him in several weeks about the problem he had been helping her with, other than "I was lonely."

Not much texting in the night, but a whole bunch of them the next day - during a work day, which is not typical for him. It looked like something was starting then.

I thought we might try to go for some insight, but if he couldn't remember anything at all about that night and the next day, the least he could have done was say something like, I'm sorry, it must hurt you to see that I texted another woman in the middle of the night and not you when I was lonely, but no, he got PO'd that I printed out the cell phone records.

I had to drop the discussion. He later apologized, but I'm back to "staying in my head" for awhile. Doesn't promote intimacy or R, does it?


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## daisygirl 41

Stargazer, Thankyou so much for your touching post. I truly appreciate it. I know I'm just having a really bad day. One of those days where the light at the end of that tunnel seems a bit dimmer.
I'm struggling with the work thing. It doesn't matter how much he reassures me it doesn't make a difference. It's just not a healthy situation for our recovery. I'm really at a loss as how to move forward with it.
I just wrote H a letter. I expressed my needs and my feeling regarding the situation. I haven't been demanding or accusing, just explained to him what I am feeling and what he can do to help me. I hope he takes it in the spirit it was intended.

He just txt me to ask me if I was ok? I asked him if he wanted the truth or lies!! His response? 'The truth, babe, always'. 
I was kind in my response. Didn't want to spoil his afternoon!! Lol!'

I'm sure we will get through this. Our communication has been a bit dodgy for a couple of weeks so I think today is just the day to get it out there and get it sorted. If we can't do it alone I'll ask him to come to MC with me.
I'm so glad I have my friends here to talk to. 
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

I'm not bagging on you for wanting to talk to your husband HG, and I hope my question doesn't sound stupid or anything, but...was this out of the blue? In other words - had you and he set up a time to talk about this stuff?

The reason I ask is that I used to kind of "ambush" Regret with questions - even with my "nice voice"  It never really did well because it was out of the blue and took her by surprise. Now, I know they should be able to handle it and yeah, it's pretty f'ng sad that they can't "handle" dealing with the sh-t card they dealt us, but...meh...what can ya do?

At the request of our MC (trained by Michelle Weiner Davis of Divorce Busting), Regret and I would set up a time to talk about the affair. 9pm...after the kids went to bed and we had 30 minutes to talk. I could ask questions or we could just discuss feelings or whatever. But that was it. 9pm for half an hour. Honestly, it usually went on for an hour or so, but at 30 minutes I ALWAYS said "okay - time's up" to which she would say it's okay to continue.

See...again - it's complete bullsh-t that they can't just talk or give us the information that we NEED. However, it's just not that way most of the time. The suggestion by our MC worked for us. Not saying it'll work for anyone else. Just passing along what worked for us.


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## Robsia

Looks like we're all having a bad day. Hugs to you all.


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## CantSitStill

Wow a lot of unhappy people here...Before things. Got better they got bad with us..as a WS it was hard knowing my husband hated his life. It made me want to get rid of myself . I was thinking. I am just a burden but somehow I kept hanging on. It does get better with time, reading and counseling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> If I didn't have children I'd pack my bag and walk out.
> I've had enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Check your pm's.


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## MrQuatto

Well, I'll throw in my $.02 for what it's worth on the recent postings. I'm a bit of a rambler at times so please excuse me if this goes around a few times to get to the point.

My wife had an ea for nearly 2 years with more than one partner. Dday 1 was late aug 2008' dday 2 was October 2008. We started R right away and it was false at 1st. She didn't really start to work at it until she caught me contacting folks for apartments on the other Side of the state. I'm going to say it was not easy at all and I made plenty of mistakes along the way. It took me over 2 years to get the point where I am convinced she is committed to the marriage. Now keep in mind this was an EA and it took me 2 years of hard work on her part to get past it. 

For the waywards out here, this was a betrayal of a core value. Something that has been ingrained by society for generations and is not easy to forgive or move beyond. If it had been a pa, I don't think I would have stayed and there were many times I wanted to walk away. There were no events that triggered those thoughts, no slip ups, no smoking guns, it was just the day to day flip flops of my mind, the self doubts and suspicious nature I gained as a result of her betrayal.

But as the BS, I stayed and kept trying with it because I loved her and she committed to me what she was going to do and I felt I owed her a chance to prove it and if she was going to put herself through that, I owed her a second chance. Trust me, there were weeks I put her through hell because that's where I was living at that moment. There were times she was ready to throw in the towel because it was so difficult and I fully know I made it that way until I was convinced she was sincere. 

Now, many never attempt R. It is easier by far to walk away and not go through the effort. Others try R and either do not really put in the effort or walk away in a short time because it is so hard and difficult. A betrayal of that magnitude takes a long time to overcome and every single day is a test of the will of the wayward to stick with it and come out better in the end, as well as a test of the bs to continue to allow the wayward to show they are committed. Again, this was 2 years for me and ours was an EA, I imagine R for a PA would not be shorter in any way.

My wife constantly asked me what I needed and there were many times I had no answer. The typical "if I have to tell you then what's the point?" In a nutshell though, it was me testing her to see how committed she really was and testing to see... Would she walk, would she cave, or slip back into affair mode? Would she just give up without a fight as she seemed to do when she had her affair? She didn't fight for me during her affair, she fought for ANOTHER! Why would she fight now unless it was just for my check?

So what the hell is my point then??? It is hard, it is long, it is difficult, and frustrating and infuriating, I know. But the one thing that always made a difference was that we talked more openly than we did before the affair. I had a right to be suspicious and pissed and question everything as the BS. She had the right to be frustrated and upset over me questioning every little detail over that 2 years. But that communication on everything, no matter how painful, frustrating or ridiculous is what made the difference. Because we were now finally able to understand the other. We didn't always agree but we at least understood.

Regardless of the affair, we are the people we are and we can't change our emotions on frustration and fear and anger on a whim, it's our commitment to the goal that matters and our actions toward meeting that goal that shows we are committed.

So in the long run, the wayward has to stand fast through all the hardship and remain committed to the outcome for it to succeed. Equally, the betrayed has to continue to communicate their feelings and allow the wayward to keep trying for the goal to be achieved. Again, it is long and hard but it is the only way the goal of true R will ever be achieved.

I hope that was at least slightly sensical?


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

I agree with EI, DaisyGirl. You gotta check your pms at the door! Sorry, couldn't resist. 

To all who are struggling this morning, try to stay calm and step back a bit. It's a rough day or few days on a very long journey of R. Focus on the progress that has been made, not just recent frustrations and issues. Keep the broader perspective in view.

MM - the key is he has to forgive the debt. You guys cant achieve long term success if he is carrying that debt around. It will take time, lots of it. It will take rebuilt trust and a shared vision of future happiness. Remember, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. . .

DG - so sorry to hear about you frustrations, and boy do I get it. I think you guys need to build a longer term plan that gets OW out of your lives completely. I know that may sound impossible, but I just can't see you guys ever letting down your guards and truly healing with her lingering around. I think that is the single highest priority for your long term success. I think you need to find a time to sit down and discuss this. Not in a threatening, ultimatum type way. But in a I think our long term happiness is contingent on her being out of our lives type way.

Robsia - I agree that the best thing you can do right now is focus on you. The 180 is a great way to do just that. It doesn't mean you have given up on R, it means that you are focused on rebuilding Robsia first and foremost. This will give you a chance to heal, become stronger etc. and it might give your husband the wake up call he needs and some time to reflect. Either way, you will come out a healthier, stronger and more confident woman. And if R gets back on track, all the better. And if not, well then you are better equipped to tackle a new path. 

Stay strong all, thoughts and prayers going out to everyone!


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## SomedayDig

Q...it was definitely slightly sensical! I liked it and it's a good post. I particularly liked 


> It is hard, it is long, it is difficult, and frustrating and infuriating, I know. But the one thing that always made a difference was that we talked more openly than we did before the affair. I had a right to be suspicious and pissed and question everything as the BS. She had the right to be frustrated and upset over me questioning every little detail over that 2 years. But that communication on everything, no matter how painful, frustrating or ridiculous is what made the difference. Because we were now finally able to understand the other. We didn't always agree but we at least understood.


I think, if anything...this is pretty close to how Regret and I work. Her affair killed a little part of me and us. Yet, our communication is so much clearer and more open/honest than ever.


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Wow a lot of unhappy people here...Before things. Got better they got bad with us..as a WS it was hard knowing my husband hated his life. It made me want to get rid of myself . I was thinking. I am just a burden but somehow I kept hanging on. It does get better with time, reading and counseling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah,a lot of bad memories,thought I was going to die,actually came close,the nights curled up in a ball shaking on the bedroom floor,puking at work,all the crying,not wanting to live,just the feeling of this is not happening to me,she really chose a homeless,broke ass thief over me?
Ah,the good ole days.
This crap sucks everything out of you and ages you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks for all the thoughts, everyone.

DG - I am so sorry to hear that you are struggling lately. I agree with SG, your positivity and efforts as a BS are so humbling to me as a WS. What an amazing gift of love you have offered your husband! I cannot imagine the pain you face with the OW as a constant part of your life. I remember you saying you hoped her contract would not be renewed a few months ago, and I hoped that for you. I know it is bad enough for Matt and I both to just imagine facing an interaction with OM. I even had a nightmare the other night about encountering one of my toxic friends. I can't fathom how much stronger that would be if it was a reality.

Matt and I are going to attempt to go to the school musical tonight ( I think). He has been envisioning circumstances where OM or toxic friends show up for the past week or more, and I'm sure that has contributed to our recent struggles. I am ashamed to say that I didn't really consider that as a possibility, nor did I think about how difficult just being in that environment a year later may be for Matt. Since I have to work in that space regularly, I force myself to look at the current and future tasks there, not at past events. I also made the mistake of underestimating how difficult that would be for Matt, since he was there shortly after D-Day 2 for my holiday concert. But as he pointed out last night, he was really still in shock then. If he goes tonight, he will have a whole different awareness than in December. I hope and pray that if he goes tonight, I can sit by his side and offer strength and love as we face that trigger. We are still currently planning to return to these jobs next year, so this space will be a reality in our lives for the forseeable future. I want to help Matt and I both kick this trigger in the azz, but it may be too soon and too raw for that to be remotely possible.

For the BS's here, I'm interested to know what got you through the early phases of R, or what keeps you going when it is tough? Like DG mentioned she'd be gone if it wasn't for the kids - what aspects do you focus on during the times when you really hate your spouse and what they did to you? When it seems so completely unfair to even attempt weathering this continued pain vs. going for a "clean break". How did you find the strength and motivation to attempt R? Is it religious/moral values? Believing in the past strength of your relationship? Financial considerations? Other factors?


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## SomedayDig

Mrs_Mathias said:


> For the BS's here, I'm interested to know what got you through the early phases of R, or what keeps you going when it is tough? Like DG mentioned she'd be gone if it wasn't for the kids - what aspects do you focus on during the times when you really hate your spouse and what they did to you? When it seems so completely unfair to even attempt weathering this continued pain vs. going for a "clean break". How did you find the strength and motivation to attempt R? Is it religious/moral values? Believing in the past strength of your relationship? Financial considerations? Other factors?


Having an end game in mind was how I started. I knew my world had just been ripped open and my heart bled openly and freely. Yet, I knew there was so much more. I wrote about it quite a while ago in one of my first threads my answer to Regret when she asked why/how I stayed with her.

This passage is directly from our online journal on 5/11/12.

"Why did I stay or not kick you out?

That is a good question and one that’s long and difficult to fully express. See, when I met you the first time 14 years ago, I was totally smitten. You have no idea the firast impression you gave me when I walked into your classroom. Fast forward to you making me dinner at the apartment the first time and our running joke that “he never went home”. Move from there to the terrific amount of support you gave me in trying to create my aviation career. Continue on to spending time with you at the hospital after the EMT’s had taken (our son) from us and we had no idea whether or not he would survive. Even more so, look at the struggles we went through with his “seizures” and how WE stuck together to make sure that is really what the problem was and when we discovered it wasn’t...WE did something about it. Then...to the beginning of our downfall: the miscarriage. Even though you may not have heard me or felt me, I was there. I cried alone in my hotel room in Utah that morning. To have something to keep my mind occupied, I actually hand flew the Diamondjet all the way home. I never used the autopilot. Ask (my co-pilot). From there, we had (our daughter). And that’s when I almost lost you. I cannot tell you how afraid I was. I saw you slipping away from me right before my eyes. I can still see you as I glanced back when they rushed me through the doors. You and I are meant to be together. Even if you lost that idea for the past five years in your search to fill a void that I should have filled. You made a horrible decision. A decision that by all accounts should have ended the very being of us. Not one person would have blamed me and they all would have had my back. 

But that’s not what happened. I looked up the stairs that night and thought of our children. How when each of them came into this life, we averted tragedy by the grace of God. So...how could I simply walk out the door? God gave me the strength to stand firm. To know that you and I are meant to be together."


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## CantSitStill

I like that answer Dig. Calvins answer was always that he loves me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

So now it’s nearly 5pm, nearly two full days since his last text saying he needed time to get over being upset, and he STILL hasn’t contacted me. WTF is his game? I don’t get it. I know he’s alive; he hasn’t died in the night. I saw on Find My Friends that he went into town this afternoon. Why can’t he see what this is doing to us? He knows that his behaviour determines whether our marriage is fixed or not. Right now it really seems as if he doesn’t want it to be fixed.

We were meant to have plans tonight – he was coming round for tea, staying the night, then tomorrow we were all going out to Madame Tussauds, then we had a date night planned. But he hasn’t been in touch saying what he wants to do about that, so it looks like it won’t happen.

I want to contact him, and it’s killing me not to. But I am the hurt party here. He’s meant to be winning me back, not me chasing him, saying please can we fix the marriage, like it’s HIS decision. It’s not. It’s mine. He should be working to get me to stay, HE should be the one panicking if I back off, not the other way round. Why isn’t he? I can only conclude that he doesn’t love me enough, that he doesn’t want to fix the marriage enough to do what is necessary to win me back. Whatever reason he has for not contacting me is more important than showing me that he is willing to do whatever it takes to fix this mess that HE caused. And nothing should be more important than that.

He should be turning up on my doorstep with a huge bouquet of flowers and an apology for being an a$$ and then whisking me away on a wonderful date night to show me how much I mean to him. But I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath.

I'm crying now


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## Mrs_Mathias

Robsia said:


> So now it’s nearly 5pm, nearly two full days since his last text saying he needed time to get over being upset, and he STILL hasn’t contacted me. WTF is his game? I don’t get it. I know he’s alive; he hasn’t died in the night. I saw on Find My Friends that he went into town this afternoon. Why can’t he see what this is doing to us? He knows that his behaviour determines whether our marriage is fixed or not. Right now it really seems as if he doesn’t want it to be fixed.
> 
> We were meant to have plans tonight – he was coming round for tea, staying the night, then tomorrow we were all going out to Madame Tussauds, then we had a date night planned. But he hasn’t been in touch saying what he wants to do about that, so it looks like it won’t happen.
> 
> I want to contact him, and it’s killing me not to. But I am the hurt party here. He’s meant to be winning me back, not me chasing him, saying please can we fix the marriage, like it’s HIS decision. It’s not. It’s mine. He should be working to get me to stay, HE should be the one panicking if I back off, not the other way round. Why isn’t he? I can only conclude that he doesn’t love me enough, that he doesn’t want to fix the marriage enough to do what is necessary to win me back. Whatever reason he has for not contacting me is more important than showing me that he is willing to do whatever it takes to fix this mess that HE caused. And nothing should be more important than that.
> 
> He should be turning up on my doorstep with a huge bouquet of flowers and an apology for being an a$$ and then whisking me away on a wonderful date night to show me how much I mean to him. But I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath.
> 
> I'm crying now


Robsia, I'm so sorry that he's treating you this way. Have you read Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley? It's really a wonderful book, and talks quite a bit about the paradox of resentment from the WS, and how to cope with that. The fact is, even though he SHOULD be doing all those things immediately - he may not for a variety of reasons. I agree with Dig, the 180 is your best friend. You will feel better and like you have more control over your life and ultimately, it WILL move you in a positive direction, whether your husband gets with the program or not.

I hope if your evening doesn't pan out, you can find something positive to do with your children or call a friend. I'll be thinking of you.


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## TCSRedhead

Robsia - I'm so sorry. He's really being an arse. This is sheer manipulation and a way for him to try to take control of the situation.

You're doing the right thing. He DOES need to be the one pursuing you at this point.


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## Robsia

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Have you read Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley? It's really a wonderful book, and talks quite a bit about the paradox of resentment from the WS, and how to cope with that.


No, I haven't. We got Not "Just Friends" but I couldn't get him to read it.

I really think it is a power thing for him, he can't bear the fact that I'm putting conditions on his behaviour, that I have any kind of control over him whatsoever. I think the contact thing has become a battle; a battle that is more important to him than fixing our marriage. Whoever makes contact first has lost, and he won't let it be him.

But he has never gone this long before. Usually when we've had a bad day, he HAS texted me the next day, he HAS been the first to make contact. This time he isn't, and I don't know what's different.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Robsia,

Can I make a suggestion? Make plans to do something with friends or your kids tonight. Do something fun. And if your husband doesn't contact you, this fun activity with those you love will help keep you from focusing on the current issues with your husband.

And better still, if you husband does contact you or stop by, you can apologize for your unavailability. You can explain, in a very calm and casual way, that you assumed plans were off becuase he never contacted you to confirm details etc. so you made some plans with friends/kids. Don't make a big deal of it, seem very casual in this exchange. Then suggest that you would love to make plans with him for a different night, he just needs to let you know when and where.

This makes it clear to him that you aren't going to sit around and wallow in loneliness or sadness. You are a good person with an active social life. If he wants in, then he needs to step up.


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## daisygirl 41

CantSitStill said:


> I like that answer Dig. Calvins answer was always that he loves me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes it's a simple as that.
I love him.
I won't give up.

Mrs M I will reply to your post when I'm feeling up to it maybe later.
I hope your evening turns out well.

Rosbia - Thinking of you. Hope he does the right thing
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Robsia,

The more i think about it, I just keep coming back to the belief that so much of the challenge with your husband is related to an ongoing power struggle.

In years past, based on what you have said, it seems your husband had a lot of power over you. And he exercised this power to control your actions and the dynamic in your relationship. As a result of his affair, a new part of you has awakened. A part of you that knows you deserve more and don't have to live a life under his control and influence. I think your husband is struggling with this new dynamic. So he is using anger as a way to control and manipulate you.

You must take away this power. Do not engage him when you are angry or hurt. Simply remove yourself from the situation/conversation when this is happening. Start making plans with other people. Be open to seeing your husband and spending time together, but only when he is willing to check the anger at the door. As soon as the old him shows up, you need to politely excuse yourself.

The very fact that he hasn't contacted you about previously made plans etc is a huge power play. He wants to be in control. He is testing to see if you will sit around waiting for him to grace you with his presence or communication. He wants to know you are dependent on him. He is working over time to re-establish control over you.

But in a healthy relationship, there is no controlling a partner. There are only clearly set needs and expectations. And that's what you need to tell him. You aren't trying to control him, you are simply saying what your needs and expectations are for the relationship to continue. He can choose to stay in the relationship and focus on meeting them, or he can choose to walk away. That is not controlling, it is clarity.

My random thoughts . . .


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## TCSRedhead

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Robsia,
> 
> Can I make a suggestion? Make plans to do something with friends or your kids tonight. Do something fun. And if your husband doesn't contact you, this fun activity with those you love will help keep you from focusing on the current issues with your husband.
> 
> And better still, if you husband does contact you or stop by, you can apologize for your unavailability. You can explain, in a very calm and casual way, that you assumed plans were off becuase he never contacted you to confirm details etc. so you made some plans with friends/kids. Don't make a big deal of it, seem very casual in this exchange. Then suggest that you would love to make plans with him for a different night, he just needs to let you know when and where.
> 
> This makes it clear to him that you aren't going to sit around and wallow in loneliness or sadness. You are a good person with an active social life. If he wants in, then he needs to step up.


:iagree:

And keep to your plans.  It will feel good to spend time with people unrelated to the drama - laugh, talk, do something you enjoy.


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## Robsia

There was a fair bit of butting horns during our marriage. We were both used to being in charge of our respective lives and it is difficult for two dominant people to come together. He used to tell me I needed someone very passive, a doormat that I could boss around. Certainly when we argued, I felt I was always the one trying to make it right, and I had to do it to his timetable. Initially though, we were both on the same page when it came to contacting each other, there was never any sense of game-playing or any power struggle. It was so easy.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Having an end game in mind was how I started. I knew my world had just been ripped open and my heart bled openly and freely. Yet, I knew there was so much more. I wrote about it quite a while ago in one of my first threads my answer to Regret when she asked why/how I stayed with her.
> 
> This passage is directly from our online journal on 5/11/12.
> 
> "Why did I stay or not kick you out?
> 
> That is a good question and one that’s long and difficult to fully express. See, when I met you the first time 14 years ago, I was totally smitten. You have no idea the firast impression you gave me when I walked into your classroom. Fast forward to you making me dinner at the apartment the first time and our running joke that “he never went home”. Move from there to the terrific amount of support you gave me in trying to create my aviation career. Continue on to spending time with you at the hospital after the EMT’s had taken (our son) from us and we had no idea whether or not he would survive. Even more so, look at the struggles we went through with his “seizures” and how WE stuck together to make sure that is really what the problem was and when we discovered it wasn’t...WE did something about it. Then...to the beginning of our downfall: the miscarriage. Even though you may not have heard me or felt me, I was there. I cried alone in my hotel room in Utah that morning. To have something to keep my mind occupied, I actually hand flew the Diamondjet all the way home. I never used the autopilot. Ask (my co-pilot). From there, we had (our daughter). And that’s when I almost lost you. I cannot tell you how afraid I was. I saw you slipping away from me right before my eyes. I can still see you as I glanced back when they rushed me through the doors. You and I are meant to be together. Even if you lost that idea for the past five years in your search to fill a void that I should have filled. You made a horrible decision. A decision that by all accounts should have ended the very being of us. Not one person would have blamed me and they all would have had my back.
> 
> But that’s not what happened. I looked up the stairs that night and thought of our children. How when each of them came into this life, we averted tragedy by the grace of God. So...how could I simply walk out the door? God gave me the strength to stand firm. To know that you and I are meant to be together."


I cried the first time I read this last summer..... I cried this time, too. Dig, what a beautiful example of your love, devotion and commitment.... You really are an incredible example of what perseverance, determination and forgiveness can overcome. I know that it hasn't been easy. If it we're, well.... it would be.... easy.


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## calvin

They want me to work a double....ugh,its a nice day,I can always use the money but I think I'll go home and sit on the deck with CSS and watch the world go by.
And is she plays her cards right she might get lucky tonight
B-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It's been a rough few nights here. Today was the year anniversary of the opening of the school musical last year, a night that my husband had to watch me interact on stage with the soon-to-be OM. Or I guess just OM... we were definitely in an EA at this point, although I didn't realize it at the time. Matt could easily have read any of our written conversations or been in any of our in-person interactions, and I wouldn't have had any concerns. Mostly because I was so blind and stupid as to my own behavior and actions. It's daunting to look ahead at the next six months and realize that everyday is going to be like this to a greater or lesser extent. For other BS's, how did you weather the anniversary time period of the affair? What helped you cope? Tonight Matt feels done. He doesn't want to deal with having a betraying f'd up person like me in his life. I am really grateful that he talked with me about his feelings, even though it is difficult for me to face that possible future. I keep trying to maintain hope, to recognize that he has felt this way before, and I know he will again, even if we manage a successful R. Please, if you would, send some strength his way. Limbo is hard. As hard as I try to empathize, and can "understand" why he feels the way he does, I know I can't fully KNOW the agony he faces. Time sometimes seems like the only factor that can allay some of his fears and hurts, but I can't find a reason that he should offer me that. The evidence he faces is that if he chooses to stay with me, I will discard him as soon as I've "gotten what I want". That all my actions and choices to change the aspects of me that I don't like and that weren't how I saw myself are simply because I haven't "won" yet, and am just reacting, instead of really being introspective and knowing what I truly want.
> 
> I feel like that is not accurate, that I have spent more time in self-reflection over the last 5 months than cumulatively over my life, and I wish my actions could more strongly reflect that awareness and conviction. But I can't come up with a way to "prove" it. He would have to choose to take that risk, to see if I'd discard him once I've "won" to discover that I wouldn't. But, clearly, I'm a bad bet. I wronged him so utterly with the affair and false R, that no logical individual would suggest that risk. He says there's nothing I could ever do to make up for what I've done. I know that's true. For those that chose to R, how did you come to terms with that colossal debt? The generosity that you all exhibit by allowing that to be past is mind-boggling to me.
> 
> I want so badly to believe that we can make it, that this is part of the process when you are 5 months out, that Matt can sometimes feel what joy could be ahead for us. But I wonder
> If I am just delusional, or too stubborn or selfish to allow myself to give up. And why should Matt have to go through this process, that is clearly so difficult and painful? For our "family"? For our son and baby to come? I know he'll be the best Dad he can, even if we divorce. But I feel like NOTHING can replace those everyday joys, waking up with snuggles, dinner conversations, small discoveries and funny turns of phrase that you miss and don't think to tell the absent partner because they are grains of sand in that day. And that applies to our romantic relationship as well. there are so many precious miniscule moments and interactions that you cant even quantify on their own, but they add up to a mountain of love, friendship, and experience that is as unique as a fingerprint.
> 
> Matt uses the phrase grains of sand to describe what happens on a bad day... That there's not necessarily anything momentous that starts the downward spiral, but just one more small thing that was or wasn't done or said or reminded of and then the scale is tipped. I feel like I'm trying to redistribute that sand with chopsticks. I know there's progress, but how long should Matt subject himself to the misery of that tipped scale? I see decades of possible happiness ahead of us. But my vision doesn't help Matt with the absolute unfairness of the pain of the here and now.
> 
> I don't know, I'm rambling at this point. Two nights in a row of little sleep turns my brain to mush.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First things, first. MM, there is no such thing as "limbo", in a relationship. So get that idea out of your head. Your marriage is progressing. The only questions are, where is it progressing to, and do you have any right to decide in what direction? Why are you so insistant that there be some kind of visible "progress', instead of accepting that any progress that may occur might be impossible to measure? Can't you see that this is pressuring Matt? It almost seems like you are asking Matt to "get over it' and make a decision about the marriage , when in terms of R, you are still very much in the opening phase, and he is still unsure of everything you represent, good and bad. Leave it alone, can't you? If you can't, then maybe a seperation would do you both a lot of good.
Also, in your posts, you expound on all of the benefits of marriage and parenthood, etc. Sure, we know that you want to save your marriage, but for what reason? Is it ego? You are the only one talking about "winning", I'm sure that Matt isn't. You really need to do some soulsearching and find out what is your real motivation for R. There is only one meanigful motive. That you love your man more than anything in the world and will accept any kind of relationship HE chooses just for the chance to prove that HE IS YOUR ALL. Matt, not the marriage, not the affair , not your wants and ego, not the kids, MATT must be everything to you. If he isn't, your chances of R are very poor. If he is, then you've got a shot at being a better wife.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> First things, first. MM, there is no such thing as "limbo", in a relationship. So get that idea out of your head. Your marriage is progressing. The only questions are, where is it progressing to, and do you have any right to decide in what direction? Why are you so insistant that there be some kind of visible "progress', instead of accepting that any progress that may occur might be impossible to measure? Can't you see that this is pressuring Matt? It almost seems like you are asking Matt to "get over it' and make a decision about the marriage , when in terms of R, you are still very much in the opening phase, and he is still unsure of everything you represent, good and bad. Leave it alone, can't you? If you can't, then maybe a seperation would do you both a lot of good.
> Also, in your posts, you expound on all of the benefits of marriage and parenthood, etc. Sure, we know that you want to save your marriage, but for what reason? Is it ego? You are the only one talking about "winning", I'm sure that Matt isn't. You really need to do some soulsearching and find out what is your real motivation for R. There is only one meanigful motive. That you love your man more than anything in the world and will accept any kind of relationship HE chooses just for the chance to prove that HE IS YOUR ALL. Matt, not the marriage, not the affair , not your wants and ego, not the kids, MATT must be everything to you. If he isn't, your chances of R are very poor. If he is, then you've got a shot at being a better wife.


Rookie - as seems to often be the case, I feel you misinterpret what I am apparently poorly attempting to communicate.

1. The word "won" is in quotes in my post because it is Matt's word. I don't feel that if he chooses to R I am "winning" anything and hate that very concept. I don't view it as a battle between us. The quotes are intended to communicate an altered delivery, a phrase or idea that isn't mine but has come up in our discussions.

2. I think in all my posts (except maybe the very early ones), I talk about rebuilding/renewing my RELATIONSHIP with Matt. I am not going to initiate divorce, but my ultimate goal is a life long romantic, committed relationship with him, married or not. Period. In my "expounding" - 

_But I feel like NOTHING can replace those everyday joys, waking up with snuggles, dinner conversations, small discoveries and funny turns of phrase that you miss and don't think to tell the absent partner because they are grains of sand in that day. And that applies to our romantic *relationship* as well. there are so many precious miniscule moments and interactions that you cant even quantify on their own, but they add up to a mountain of love, friendship, and experience that is as unique as a fingerprint._

3. My desire for R has NOTHING to do with ego. My focus on progress is NOT some sort of demand for Matt to "get over it" and i guess maybe I need to work to choose a different word to communicate what Matt and I face as we struggle through this. As I have said to you before, I don't think there's anything in my posts that indicates that. When I talk about progress, that's me recognizing and trying to reinforce that we do have positive days mixed in with the struggles. I am not pressuring Matt for ANYTHING. I have made no requests of him, no expectations for him. I know that "progress" through R cannot be measured and in fact - I believe that it is often "two steps forward, one step back" type of flux for some time. His COUNSELOR has said he needs to decide if the relationship is worth working on. HE has said that he doesn't like continuing to live with the pain and "rehashing" the affair - HE feels like those conversations are not "productive" (note the use of quotes to indicate those are NOT my choice of words). I think, based on what I've read here, it is both productive and necessary to continue to face the pain as it happens and talk about the affair, even if the conversation feels like it is covering the same issues. I believe my pregnancy and other factors in our life cause Matt to "pressure" himself - he talks of not wanting to waste more of his time or mine. MY time with him is never a waste, no matter what happens.

4. I may not have the "right" to decide how our relationship progresses, but I do have the "right" and IMO the responsibility to make every effort towards being the kind of partner/lover/friend/wife that I want to be. And YES, I hope that those efforts and changes are NOT unnoticed, and that they can, in fact, help with Matt's healing and ultimately the continuation of our RELATIONSHIP. When we do have the opportunity to communicate together, you bet your azz that I share my hopes, my vision for a positive future, and my desire to build that with him at the center. I am not going to passively listen or pass up an opportunity to show and tell him that I care, that HE is important to me in every possible way. So I don't feel that I "pressure" Matt to make any decisions one way or the other OR within any sort of timeframe, but I am working to openly share my feelings with him, and that includes talking about a possible future together. HE may not choose that, but I think he needs to know that I would choose that, and CHOOSE HIM every single day.


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## ChangingMe

With all due respect, Rookie, your one answer seems to be, ” leave your BS for a while, since that worked for me.” I am so happy your way worked for you and Sweetie, but each relationship is different. And, no matter how many times you post it, I just cannot wrap my brain around how a WS choosing to separate can in any way show the BS her level of commitment or desire to be in the marriage. 

If the BS chooses to separate, that is one thing. Of course they have that right, and we are responsible for putting them in that position, but if they choose to stay with us, then that is their choice as well. You say over and over how things aren't up to the wayward. Very true. So respect the BS in making the choice to stay.

It comes across to me that you believe your way is the only successful way to reconcile. It worked for you, I see that, and I am truly happy for you. But please recognize that the rest of us -BS and WS alike-have our reasons for choosing the paths we're choosing. Sometimes we have bad days, and we look on here for comfort, support, and suggestions. I hope we can receive those things without being judged too harshly for not following everyone's advice if it doesn't seem to be the right thing for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I don't see anything wrong with spending a few days apart,not seperating for weeks but sometimes a break is needed when you go through this.
Gives people time to get a perective and think a little.
I am a firm believer that trying to R while seperated will not work.
Everyone is different though
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

I hit LIKE on that Calvin for the comment "Everyone is different though".

If I had been on TAM the day after Dday, I would have been told to do the 180, expose to everyone and get Athol Kay's book and become more "Alpha".

I'm glad I wasn't here because that is NOT at all what Regret responded to. What she responded to was Dig simply being a firm man and taking back our marriage. I didn't do the full 180 thing, but I did do some of it - looking at that in hindsight. I did what was natural to me: I looked at her and told her if she truly loved me, she would fix this f-ck of a whirlwind that she created and she'd be lucky if I stuck around to listen.

There is no cookie cutter recipe for this sh-t. There simply isn't. If there was, we wouldn't read thread after thread after thread of people who don't know what in the world to do.

I read the Kevin Jackson and the No More Mr. Nice Guy books. They worked for me. I've offered them to a couple guys here the past couple days and thankfully, it worked for them, too. But...that doesn't mean it works for everyone. Maybe someone DOES need the MMSLP book. Maybe Dr. Harley DOES work for someone.

The point is, as you said, everyone is different. Like on those awesome workout infomercials...these results are NOT typical.


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## CantSitStill

Well all WS's that are remorseful. And love their spouse are praying that. Their spouse is able to recover and move forward to a more positive relationship so when they know their spouse is flipflopping about weather or not they really want R. It is hard for the WS to not look for glitters of hope. The WS gets so fearful that they can't function very well. We have this thread to speak of our fears and for that I am grateful. So please don't feel we don't have that right. We need a place to express our feelings. I do not think it is selfish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Ws gave up every right they had,all of them.
They have no right to expect the BS to take care of them,no right to ask anything of them,infidelity is the ultimate form of abuse.
If R is agreed upon and the couple decides to work thing out then the WS does regain some right immediately in my opinion.
The right to be heard,to speak,the right to fix the wrongs they did,the right to be treated like a person who has feelings,even if we we had those rights stipped away from us.
Being betrayed doesn't not give the BS the right to do whatever they please but bear in mind the BS had no say so in their future,it was decided for them.
Everyone has their own speed,their own way of going about this,if R is an option the WS should have the chance to prove themselves and not fall through a trap door even if us BS's had it done to us.
This may sound harsh but what I was put through was bullsh!t,no one deserves this,especially to be called by the POS for a year and re-live the crap several times a week.
The WS re-gains some rights when R is started,they earn the rest over time.
CSS has earned almost everything back,I was the one who decided to R so I have to be willing to give her a fair shot and give her some "rights" back to her.
The rest she must earn and she has.
One size does not all fit in R.What works for one couple may not for another
If it was me who cheated,I believe I should be given the right to prove myself.
Sorry,going on a rant here.
There is no textbook for this crap,a lot of it is flying by the seat of your pants deal.
Trial and error.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Reconciliation looks different for everyone. When we had it all come out, I raged and raged against C&B. I told him I hadn't loved him for years, that he hadn't cared about me, that I was done. Our marriage was over. 

I went out and got a new phone, sent my number to everyone and told him I was getting a divorce. He didn't argue or fight back. He was very calm. He waited a few days and then asked what we were going to do, what I really wanted. He told me he loved me and wanted to work things out. I couldn't commit. How could we ever fix this? How could I make the pain I caused him go away? I felt dead inside emotionally. 

We moved to another state (this was planned prior) and I stayed shut down for the most part. I was horrible. I just couldn't deal with all of this. While on a business trip, the xOM sent a text to the new phone with some dumb picture talking about b00bs. C&B had intercepted the message before I'd even seen it and called me furious. I again raged - I hadn't done anything (except I HAD given him the number when I got the phone) and how dare he again snoop! C&B called the xOM and told him off. I again shut down. See? This was going to follow me forever.

C&B had asked me to give up all passwords. Why should I? It wouldn't prove anything. So, I stayed stubborn. I think in some sick, twisted way I was trying to see how hard I could push him before he'd give up on us. 

We started going on 'dates' around the new city. Spent time talking, much of it with me crying and still not figuring out how to fix this. I became pregnant and really felt lost and hopeless. Here were were living in this empty shell of a marriage and we're going to bring a baby in now too? It seemed horribly unfair to this child, to C&B and lastly to me. I was too f'd up to be a wife, to be a mother. He deserved better - why was he still here? 

I came to TAM after our son was born. This was over a year after D Day. A year while he dealt with me being shut down, me treating him terribly, sticking through all of this. 

My first post was asking about sharing passwords. I got read the riot act and quite honestly a lot of really brutal and harsh feedback. So, I began reading. A lot. I was able to put myself in his shoes for the first time and I hated myself. I still could not understand how the hell this man still loved me but he did. 

It was then that I focused on fixing this, fixing me. We sat down and really started talking. It's been a long process but I am grateful for the chance. 

I texted him today that I was glad he didn't give up on me and that I intend to spend the rest of our lives proving he made the right choice. His answer was that I don't have to prove anything, he KNOWS he made the right choice. 

Had he come to TAM and followed the normal advice, he would have left in those first few weeks. As closed-minded and stubborn as I was, I'm not sure that would have worked for us. His steadfast presence (not a doormat, just present) showed me he was here for the long run.


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## calvin

TCSRedhead said:


> Reconciliation looks different for everyone. When we had it all come out, I raged and raged against C&B. I told him I hadn't loved him for years, that he hadn't cared about me, that I was done. Our marriage was over.
> 
> I went out and got a new phone, sent my number to everyone and told him I was getting a divorce. He didn't argue or fight back. He was very calm. He waited a few days and then asked what we were going to do, what I really wanted. He told me he loved me and wanted to work things out. I couldn't commit. How could we ever fix this? How could I make the pain I caused him go away? I felt dead inside emotionally.
> 
> We moved to another state (this was planned prior) and I stayed shut down for the most part. I was horrible. I just couldn't deal with all of this. While on a business trip, the xOM sent a text to the new phone with some dumb picture talking about b00bs. C&B had intercepted the message before I'd even seen it and called me furious. I again raged - I hadn't done anything (except I HAD given him the number when I got the phone) and how dare he again snoop! C&B called the xOM and told him off. I again shut down. See? This was going to follow me forever.
> 
> C&B had asked me to give up all passwords. Why should I? It wouldn't prove anything. So, I stayed stubborn. I think in some sick, twisted way I was trying to see how hard I could push him before he'd give up on us.
> 
> We started going on 'dates' around the new city. Spent time talking, much of it with me crying and still not figuring out how to fix this. I became pregnant and really felt lost and hopeless. Here were were living in this empty shell of a marriage and we're going to bring a baby in now too? It seemed horribly unfair to this child, to C&B and lastly to me. I was too f'd up to be a wife, to be a mother. He deserved better - why was he still here?
> 
> I came to TAM after our son was born. This was over a year after D Day. A year while he dealt with me being shut down, me treating him terribly, sticking through all of this.
> 
> My first post was asking about sharing passwords. I got read the riot act and quite honestly a lot of really brutal and harsh feedback. So, I began reading. A lot. I was able to put myself in his shoes for the first time and I hated myself. I still could not understand how the hell this man still loved me but he did.
> 
> It was then that I focused on fixing this, fixing me. We sat down and really started talking. It's been a long process but I am grateful for the chance.
> 
> I texted him today that I was glad he didn't give up on me and that I intend to spend the rest of our lives proving he made the right choice. His answer was that I don't have to prove anything, he KNOWS he made the right choice.
> 
> Had he come to TAM and followed the normal advice, he would have left in those first few weeks. As closed-minded and stubborn as I was, I'm not sure that would have worked for us. His steadfast presence (not a doormat, just present) showed me he was here for the long run.


Good post Red,sometimes good people just get lost and can see but are so blind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I can say this,all of it was hard,real hard.It took a huge toll on me.
I can also say I have no regrets now.R was worth it.
Would I do it over if I knew the pain train coming my way??
Yeah,I would.I'd got to hell and back for CSS,already did.
Do it again?
Never.
No two snowflakes are the same,niether are any two relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Had to leave town for a planned thing with a friend; perfect timing.
I noticed far fewer texts from WS than I would normally get when I'm on the road.
Quite the contrast with his textathons with OW.
And not a single phone call yet. I won't call him.
He usually is more concerned, so even after his apology there is obvious distance.
Said he would miss me in one text but I'm not sure that was true.
I still have doubts about the truth of some things he says...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

hi everyone: 

i was away from the thread for a little while as i continued to struggle through my dday#2 anniversary and the coinciding events (i.e., fWH's breaking of NC). we have had some good conversations since then and i am feeling much better today. 

dg, i realize that a couple of days have passed since you posted some of these messages, but my heart has really been with you as i have read them. you have been so amazingly strong in dealing with your H's work situation. you might remember that you and i had some commonalities early on, with one of them being that our Hs were not so inclined to talk about feeling (and dig's experiences with regret helped me then as well). 

my H is sitting here and i am right now asking him about what helped him begin to talk about feelings. he says, number one was our MC, who helped him realize that he had issues of his own to deal with. (i think that the fact that our MC is a man was helpful). Number two, he says that he realized that talking about feelings is a big part of how couples connect with each other, and NOT doing that was part of our disconnection in the first place. finally, he says, "once i saw the pain i had caused, i realized that i _have _to do this, so i don't care if i'm not good at it. i also saw that when i tried it, even if i wasn't any good at it, that was okay, too -- the world didn't come to an end because i wasn't good at it."

hope to hear again soon how things are going....

cpacan, it was so good to hear your update, thank you 

mrs. m, my heart always goes out to you and matt as well. you asked what keeps BSs going when things get tough in R... part of the answer is simple: i love my H, and i knew that i could not be happy walking away without knowing that i had hung in there long enough to see if we could work through this. 

right now, i am now coming out of a really difficult two weeks where my usual techniques for hanging in there did not seem to work well. i can usually get in touch with some good energy and optimism by either 1) generally reminding myself about the growth and change that all of us are capable of, or 2) thinking through things that are happening with my H in such a way that i can imagine one thing leading to another in a positive sequence and/or 3) picturing the positive things that _both_ of us are learning and which will be part of our marriage in the future. 

it all kind of requires using my head to make things better -- but i somehow lost my head this past week. i couldn't really think straight -- my feelings overwhelmed my head, and i felt anxious, anchorless, and in danger (of being cheated on and lied to again). i kept trying to think my way out of it and i couldn't 

what helped me get through this was talking with my H, which brings things back to dg's situation, and also reminds me of hopefulgirl's comments about staying in her head too much. talking helped because and _only_ because my H is able now, and willing now, to listen to me and to answer questions and to talk about his own feelings too. it is no exaggeration to say that he has been wonderful during this difficult period.

these conversations help me quiet the echo chamber that develops in my head.

i'm still afraid -- but as you pointed out, mrs. m, we all have to let time do its work. time will ultimately show BSs that a WS's words and commitments are finally true and meaningful again. 

sometimes i catch myself feeling as though, if only i can ask the right question in the right way to get the real answer, then it won't hurt so much anymore. i am realizing that this is a bit of a fantasy. the conversations are VERY important and the answers do help -- but only time, and seeing the reality of my H's commitment and actions will get us past this.


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## hopefulgirl

margrace, the one thing that gives me hope when I'm running low
(yes hopefulgirl's supply gets nearly drained) is time.
Past and future - the present may suck!
In the past we both had some of the best years of our lives.
We never had it that good til we were together.
My WS has been getting help for his anxiety problem;
He had a panic attack not long before the EA started (PA came later).
He's got to get healthier himself and then he'll be better able to be
a good husband. Right now he's still kind of a mess.
I hope that in time he can be less defensive and be of more 
help to me in my healing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

No matter what you might have been told, one size does not fit all.


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## calvin

MattMatt said:


> No matter what you might have been told, one size does not fit all.


No it don't M&M,not even close.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

MM and CM, I can only relate to my situation, when it comes to advice and such, so it may seem like I think I "know it all", but that is far from the truth. Sweetie and I are very lucky. But one of the ideas (perhaps the most important one) that came out of our story was that the relationship is far, far, far, more important than the marriage, of itself. If I had allowed Sweetie back , after kicking her out, We would have kept the marriage intact, but none of the issues would have been solved. Preserving a marriage filled with mistrust, anxiety, betrayal, anger, sadness and disillusionment, would only have been a short-term solution, and would probably have lead to the sort of permanent bad feeling that no amount of remorse or soul-searching could possibly mend. Now I'm NOT saying that anyone should leave for a prolonged period of time , or divorce, like I did. What I'm saying is that during the first few months of R, the BS especially, needs some "alone time" without triggers, to process his/her feelings and come to some kind of a decision about their future. The WS needs to be fully on board with this, even to the point of leaving the family home for a few days or how ever long it takes. Remember, the biggest trigger of all, is the presence of the cheater, in the family home. Because regardless of their new-found remorse or guilt, they didn't value the relationship or their BS, or family before, so why should the BS be asked to believe that they do now?
Demonstrate your renewed commitment to your BS first and to your family and marriage second. Demonstrate it in every thought , word, or deed. If your BS asks for some time away, tell him/her that you understand and will be waiting , how ever long it takes. Possess yourself with patience and love and remorse and take your cues from your BS.


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## EI

Robsia said:


> ........ *Why can’t he see what this is doing to us?* He knows that his behaviour determines whether our marriage is fixed or not. Right now it really seems as if he doesn’t want it to........


He can see and, yes, he knows.........



Robsia said:


> I want to contact him, and it’s killing me not to. But I am the hurt party here.* He’s meant to be winning me back, not me chasing him, saying please can we fix the marriage, like it’s HIS decision. It’s not. It’s mine. He should be working to get me to stay, HE should be the one panicking if I back off, not the other way round. Why isn’t he? *I can only conclude that he doesn’t love me enough, that he doesn’t want to fix the marriage enough to do what is necessary to win me back. Whatever reason he has for not contacting me is more important than showing me that he is willing to do whatever it takes to fix this mess that HE caused. And nothing should be more important than that.
> 
> *He should be turning up on my doorstep with a huge bouquet of flowers and an apology for being an a$$* and then whisking me away on a wonderful date night to show me how much I mean to him. But I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath.


This is a hard post for me to make, but I feel like I have to. Robsia, it's obvious that you are in a tremendous amount of pain and for that my heart truly goes out to you. But, as a former WS, I'm going to strongly encourage you to take a step back. What you have been doing is NOT working..... From everything you've been telling us, it appears that your husband is becoming more and more disengaged from you and your relationship.

Now, here is the hard part for me to share, but because I think it might help you, I'm going to try. B1 and I had a very unhappy marriage for a long, long time prior to my A. There's absolutely no history rewriting in that..... there just isn't. Our marriage had sucked (for lack of a better word) for years. There came a time when I absolutely could no longer bear to live that way, anymore. For about 3 years prior to my A, I worked very hard on improving myself and on trying to improve our relationship. I encouraged him to do the same. He didn't. In fact, he made it extremely clear that the state of our marriage, at the time, was as good as it was ever going to get, and that I needed to accept what had come to be our lot in life. Any further attempts on my part to get closer to him were met with shame, humiliation and an even greater distance between us. 

I am being forced, as I write this, to shut off my emotions because I cannot bear to go back, even in my thoughts, to such a painful, lonely and hopeless time in my life.

B1 and I have shared our story ad nauseam on TAM, so I almost feel guilty when I repeat any of it as I think people get tired of reading it and God knows, it is not something that either B1 or I care to reminisce about. But, you weren't around when our original threads were posted, hence the reason I am sharing this part of it with you. Everyone else, please feel free to skip this. In the early aftermath of D-Day, last year, B1, as a BS, spent hours upon hours drilling me and grilling me about the "details" of my infidelity. In the first few weeks, he also spent hours and hours shaming me, humiliating me and berating me for the gut wrenching act of betrayal that I had heaped, not only on him, but on our children, as well. Only, much later, did I come to realize that I had betrayed myself just as much as I had betrayed my family. But, I wasn't ready, or even able, to own that, yet. I was neither sorry, remorseful or ready to make amends for quite some time. I was sorry that he was hurting and that I was the cause of his hurt, but I was not yet sorry for what I'd done. In fact, I was pi$$ed as Hell that he was "ruining" my small measure of "happiness" in an otherwise miserable existence. So, all the while that he was attempting to shame me, humiliate me, and berate me into a remorseful submission of sorrow and regret, he was, unknowingly, only succeeding in pushing me further and further away. The more that he told me what I SHOULD be doing to make this up to him, the less desire I had to do so and the more resentful I became. The more he told me how I SHOULD be feeling about what I'd done, the more defensive I became about why I had done it. It was a very vicious and unhealthy cycle. Yet, it was probably very typical BS and WS reactions to a very abnormal situation.

The start of the turning point came several weeks later when, after a particularly nasty set of words were exchanged, B1 stopped talking to me.... mid-argument, walked away, went into our bathroom, and shut the door. He was in there for quite a while. I assumed that he was in there, curled up on the floor, in the fetal position, crying. I was exhausted from all of the drama and I was being a real Bi+ch, at the time. But, I thought that the least I should do was to check on him. The door was locked so I used the key to let myself in. Instead of the crying, crumpled mess of a man that I had expected to find, I found him showered, shaved and getting dressed, whistling a happy little tune, no less....  The nerve of him, I thought... 

We talked..... He told me that he loved me. He told me that he knew that he had contributed greatly to the demise of our marriage. He told me how genuinely sorry that he was for failing to respond to my repeated pleas to work on our marriage. He told me that he wanted a happy future and that he wanted it to be with me. He told me that he had been shut down emotionally for as long as he could remember, but that this had forced him to "feel" and that, although, he felt overwhelming pain, he also felt an overwhelming need to love and to be loved. He said that he wanted to share that love with me. THEN, he said....... "But, if it isn't going to be with you, I will find love with someone else. I'm ready for happiness." In an instant, I saw him through different eyes. I thought, I'll be damned, he was finally becoming the man I'd wanted and needed him to be and it was all going to be for someone else. Then, I thought, "Like Hell it was going to be for someone else, he's mine!!! Then, I turned and walked away. I went into the bathroom, shut and locked the door. Now, it was his turn to wonder what was going on. His whole new confident, no longer begging, pleading, demanding or trying to shame me into submission attitude had taken all of about 10 minutes to work it's magic on me. There was no need for him to do a full "180." It took a few minutes of nothing more than a 1.8 (at most....) I emerged from the bathroom in full seduction gear and for a little while after, we both felt the Earth move! 

I really think you need to stop pressuring him. Every time you tell him what he should be doing, should be feeling and should be thinking, he is responding very defensively and defiantly. His thoughts and feelings are his own. He may very well have some unresolved bitterness from issues in your marriage prior to his infidelity. You've openly stated that your marriage had been very troubled prior to his affair. None of that justifies his choice to have an affair, but it could have a bearing on his desire and willingness to recommit to the marriage. If he is still on the fence and he is feeling resentful towards you, then what you are saying to him is pushing him further away.

You count, too, Robsia..... you deserve happiness. It gets said on TAM, often enough, but sometimes, you have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it. 

I wish you the very best..... Try something different... It can't hurt (worse than it already does) and it might help.

Take care,
~EI


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## Rookie4

Full seduction gear?" Hmmmmmm. Enquiring minds want to know what that includes. Do you keep it in a kit or bag under the sink? Do you take it with you wherever you go, so you can whip it out , like Superman and change into it in phone booths ?


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## Rookie4

My "full seduction gear " is my awesome singing voice. Actually I can't sing a lick, but Sweetie says that it's so sexy and adorable when I try, that it turns her into pudding.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks to those if you who took time to answer what keeps you going. I am awed by your love for your spouses after all that you've suffered at their hands. I wish the very best future filled with joy for you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

EI - Thank you for your post - I have read it with interest. In comparison, I don't think I have been such a bad BS - whilst I have asked my share of questions about the A, which he has answered, I have not humiliated, berated, punished, shamed my WH at all. If anything, I have been TOO nice, too understanding, too forgiving, But by bottling it all up for most of the time, there are times when it does come out and I am angry and upset.

But even in those times, it takes the form of "Why won't you do xyz for me to meet my needs?" rather than "You're a total f-ing bastard and I hate you."

I have probably been about as perfect a BS as I can possibly be, under the circumstances, far better than he would have been, and even he admits that. But it's still not enough.

My heart is broken all over again that he is not willing to do what I need him to do, what I am almost begging him to do. I do love him and I do want to fix our marriage, but I can't do it on my own.


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## LanieB

EI said:


> He can see and, yes, he knows.........
> 
> 
> 
> This is a hard post for me to make, but I feel like I have to. Robsia, it's obvious that you are in a tremendous amount of pain and for that my heart truly goes out to you. But, as a former WS, I'm going to strongly encourage you to take a step back. What you have been doing is NOT working..... From everything you've been telling us, it appears that your husband is becoming more and more disengaged from you and your relationship.
> 
> Now, here is the hard part for me to share, but because I think it might help you, I'm going to try. B1 and I had a very unhappy marriage for a long, long time prior to my A. There's absolutely no history rewriting in that..... there just isn't. Our marriage had sucked (for lack of a better word) for years. There came a time when I absolutely could no longer bear to live that way, anymore. For about 3 years prior to my A, I worked very hard on improving myself and on trying to improve our relationship. I encouraged him to do the same. He didn't. In fact, he made it extremely clear that the state of our marriage, at the time, was as good as it was ever going to get, and that I needed to accept what had come to be our lot in life. Any further attempts on my part to get closer to him were met with shame, humiliation and an even greater distance between us.
> 
> I am being forced, as I write this, to shut off my emotions because I cannot bear to go back, even in my thoughts, to such a painful, lonely and hopeless time in my life.
> 
> B1 and I have shared our story ad nauseam on TAM, so I almost feel guilty when I repeat any of it as I think people get tired of reading it and God knows, it is not something that either B1 or I care to reminisce about. But, you weren't around when our original threads were posted, hence the reason I am sharing this part of it with you. Everyone else, please feel free to skip this. In the early aftermath of D-Day, last year, B1, as a BS, spent hours upon hours drilling me and grilling me about the "details" of my infidelity. In the first few weeks, he also spent hours and hours shaming me, humiliating me and berating me for the gut wrenching act of betrayal that I had heaped, not only on him, but on our children, as well. Only, much later, did I come to realize that I had betrayed myself just as much as I had betrayed my family. But, I wasn't ready, or even able, to own that, yet. I was neither sorry, remorseful or ready to make amends for quite some time. I was sorry that he was hurting and that I was the cause of his hurt, but I was not yet sorry for what I'd done. In fact, I was pi$$ed as Hell that he was "ruining" my small measure of "happiness" in an otherwise miserable existence. So, all the while that he was attempting to shame me, humiliate me, and berate me into a remorseful submission of sorrow and regret, he was, unknowingly, only succeeding in pushing me further and further away. The more that he told me what I SHOULD be doing to make this up to him, the less desire I had to do so and the more resentful I became. The more he told me how I SHOULD be feeling about what I'd done, the more defensive I became about why I had done it. It was a very vicious and unhealthy cycle. Yet, it was probably very typical BS and WS reactions to a very abnormal situation.
> 
> The start of the turning point came several weeks later when, after a particularly nasty set of words were exchanged, B1 stopped talking to me.... mid-argument, walked away, went into our bathroom, and shut the door. He was in there for quite a while. I assumed that he was in there, curled up on the floor, in the fetal position, crying. I was exhausted from all of the drama and I was being a real Bi+ch, at the time. But, I thought that the least I should do was to check on him. The door was locked so I used the key to let myself in. Instead of the crying, crumpled mess of a man that I had expected to find, I found him showered, shaved and getting dressed, whistling a happy little tune, no less....  The nerve of him, I thought...
> 
> We talked..... He told me that he loved me. He told me that he knew that he had contributed greatly to the demise of our marriage. He told me how genuinely sorry that he was for failing to respond to my repeated pleas to work on our marriage. He told me that he wanted a happy future and that he wanted it to be with me. He told me that he had been shut down emotionally for as long as he could remember, but that this had forced him to "feel" and that, although, he felt overwhelming pain, he also felt an overwhelming need to love and to be loved. He said that he wanted to share that love with me. THEN, he said....... "But, if it isn't going to be with you, I will find love with someone else. I'm ready for happiness." In an instant, I saw him through different eyes. I thought, I'll be damned, he was finally becoming the man I'd wanted and needed him to be and it was all going to be for someone else. Then, I thought, "Like Hell it was going to be for someone else, he's mine!!! Then, I turned and walked away. I went into the bathroom, shut and locked the door. Now, it was his turn to wonder what was going on. His whole new confident, no longer begging, pleading, demanding or trying to shame me into submission attitude had taken all of about 10 minutes to work it's magic on me. There was no need for him to do a full "180." It took a few minutes of nothing more than a 1.8 (at most....) I emerged from the bathroom in full seduction gear and for a little while after, we both felt the Earth move!
> 
> I really think you need to stop pressuring him. Every time you tell him what he should be doing, should be feeling and should be thinking, he is responding very defensively and defiantly. His thoughts and feelings are his own. He may very well have some unresolved bitterness from issues in your marriage prior to his infidelity. You've openly stated that your marriage had been very troubled prior to his affair. None of that justifies his choice to have an affair, but it could have a bearing on his desire and willingness to recommit to the marriage. If he is still on the fence and he is feeling resentful towards you, then what you are saying to him is pushing him further away.
> 
> You count, too, Robsia..... you deserve happiness. It gets said on TAM, often enough, but sometimes, you have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it.
> 
> I wish you the very best..... Try something different... It can't hurt (worse than it already does) and it might help.
> 
> Take care,
> ~EI


I have never posted in this thread, but I've been reading it faithfully ever since I joined TAM.  And EI, I just had to tell you that I get so much out of your posts. Your insights are truly appreciated and very helpful. Even though this particular post is for Robsia (and I'm sorry for what you're going through, Robsia - I feel your pain), it gives me a lot to think about. 

I am a BW. (D-Day#1 Aug '12, D-Day #2 Nov '12, kicked WH out and filed for divorce immediately after D-Day #2, then lost my mind and let WH talk me into letting him come home right before New Years.) All of this occurred before I found TAM, and I have done EVERYTHING wrong. In fact, it didn't take me long to realize that my "reconciliation" isn't actually a reconciliation. In fact, the affair may still be in progress - - but I'm too disgusted to even check. What I do know is that my WH isn't the least bit remorseful and has done NOTHING to try to rebuild our marriage. 

I have been slowly disengaging over these past 4 months since he's been home. I may take a page from yours and B1's book and let him know I'm going to be happy with or without him - and begin to live my own life and see what happens. I never go out with friends (though he does - he has always lived like a single man, but I trusted him before), but I think it's time I started, just to give him something to think about - as well as for myself. This may be my one last effort at "saving" my marriage, because I'm basically done.

EI - again, I just wanted you to know that you aren't only helping the regular posters on this thread, but others as well. Thank you for taking the time to share your story and offer very constructive advice. And I'm so happy that things have worked out so well for you and B1.


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## margrace

Robsia said:


> EI - Thank you for your post - I have read it with interest. In comparison, I don't think I have been such a bad BS - whilst I have asked my share of questions about the A, which he has answered, I have not humiliated, berated, punished, shamed my WH at all. If anything, I have been TOO nice, too understanding, too forgiving, But by bottling it all up for most of the time, there are times when it does come out and I am angry and upset.
> 
> But even in those times, it takes the form of "Why won't you do xyz for me to meet my needs?" rather than "You're a total f-ing bastard and I hate you."
> 
> I have probably been about as perfect a BS as I can possibly be, under the circumstances, far better than he would have been, and even he admits that. But it's still not enough.
> 
> My heart is broken all over again that he is not willing to do what I need him to do, what I am almost begging him to do. I do love him and I do want to fix our marriage, but I can't do it on my own.


hi robsia:

i am feeling for you. i know how painful-beyond-words the experience of betrayal is... i know how grief-stricken and confused i was.... those memories are very easy, _too _easy, for me to access.

because i am feeling your pain, it has been very hard for me to pass along my thoughts to you, because i also remember not wanting to hear feedback like this. but i know that i would be letting you down if i continued to remain silent with regard to your situation.

i think that you may not have taken in some of the most important points in EI's post. 

here's my two cents for what it's worth....

we know that cheating is always wrong, but as everyone says, every couple, every pre-A marriage, every BS, and every WS are somewhat different. we have seen some BSs who want to work toward R, and some who don't. some WSs are relatively quick to see how wrong their actions were and become remorseful, and some are slower to see that (and some never really see it). so there are lots of different variables involved.

in the context of your particular variables, what you are doing is not working, robsia.

and that includes begging your WH for hugs, asking him why he won't do xy and z to meet your needs, arranging date nights, etc.

none of us are ever 100% aware of how others are reading us. i will share with you that i'm a BS and i even feel a little pushed away by some of this.

now, there are a couple of ways that i can think about this. first of all, it's certainly true that you should not be in the position of even _having_ to figure out what works. absolutely right. so maybe, in light of that fact, you want to walk away (permanently or temporarily).

the fact is, however, that you _are _in that position. so if you _don't_ want to walk away yet, you need to be interested in how you are contributing (or not contributing) to the success of R.

your husband is not yet where you are. he won't get there by your requesting that he be there. 

he sounds like one of those WHs who is not immediately (or quickly) snapped into full-on remorse. mine wasn't either. you will need to allow some space -- _more_ space, more _psychological_ space -- in which this can happen. i don't think it will ever happen while you are begging, asking, explaining, etc.

he will do what he needs to do when he gets it, when he is remorseful, and when he chooses it.

i believe that you will contribute to this process by stepping back and letting that happen or not happen. that means accepting that it might not happen, which is a reality. 

you will know that you have truly accepted it when you see yourself cultivating your own life and your own growth in a different way. make yourself put R away in a drawer for a while and ask yourself, what do _i_ (apart from H or any plans with him) want to do today (and tomorrow and next week)? 

don't you look forward to being the best, happiest person and wife that you can possibly be -- either to this H or to someone else? (we hope it's _this_ H ) well, commit to that. put action behind that. read some books or join a discussion group or book club or get some counseling or do all of those. if this feels a little forced today, fine. just go ahead and force it for today. next week it won't feel so forced.

in the space that opens, your H will fully experience the opportunity to choose or not choose to work on himself and your marriage. it might take 10 minutes or a week or a month or two years, but i think that's the only way that it can ever happen.

look in the mirror, robsia. meet her eyes and tell her: it. isn't. working! unclench your fists a little and open yourself to the possibilities of your own growth and development and see where that takes you. 

okay, hopefully that was worth all of two cents  we are all behind you here and sending positive energy your way!


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## Robsia

It was. You are right, totally, absolutely, completely 100% right.

Doesn't make it any easier though to actually do it.

It jut feels so unfair. _I'm_ the wronged party yet I am trying to do everything right, and he isn't.

I just have to face the fact that this actually might not work out. Maybe I should continue with the D.


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## SomedayDig

Robsia said:


> I just have to face the fact that this actually might not work out. Maybe I should continue with the D.


Hate to say it, but he hasn't - through your posts - shown me any real try at reconciliation or even showing true remorse. Like I said a few days ago, I'm more a fan of reconciliation however in this case divorce seems what's best for YOU.


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## B1

Robsia, it's time for a full blown 180. You have to be willing, really willing to let him go to possibly R. What you have been doing, as stated already, isn't working. Yes, it sucks, you were wronged and he's not playing fair now, he's not begging to come back. That should tell you something. It's a scary place to be Robsia, to think you may be alone.

Guess what, there is someone else out there for you, you can find happiness, you can be happy. You need to know this. That's what I figured out in an instant after nasty words with EI that fateful day when she found me in the bathroom whistling. I decided I would have happiness with or without her. I was willing to let her go and you know that felt good then, it was a powerful feeling. 

Do the 180, file for divorce, show him you can and will go on without him. 

Ok, now back to my hiatus..


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## Robsia

How's that hiatus working out for you, B1? 

Well, he just texted me. He said "Why are you ignoring me?"

This implies that he is doing something for me to be ignoring, which he hasn't been. I have heard not a thing from him since the last text he sent me three days ago saying he needed time to stop being upset.

I briefly considered making him wait three days for my answer, but I'm not that petty so I replied, saying “I was giving you time to stop being upset, as you asked me to. Have you stopped now?”

So far he has not replied. And now the waiting begins again.


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## SomedayDig

Geesh! Pure, narcissistic fishing with that text. "Why are you ignoring me"?????? This guy is a classic manipulative jerk. And of course, because that's the way you've learned the dance with him, you replied. His non-response is merely part of the dance.

I know I've been pretty blunt with you, Robsia...but you need it. You're NOT in reconciliation. You're in a game...and you're being handed your hand by the dealer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

I know. I'm not going to duplicate the entire text conversation we have had here but the highlights so far are him accusing me of being deliberately obtuse, him telling me he was merely waiting for me to respond to his last text, him telling me that I canlt go around pissing people off and expecting them to be all loving towards me, and finally him telling me that if I want to walk that is up to me. That was after I told him that I was turning the R over to him, that what I was doing clearly wasn't working and that it was up to him to think of what to do next, that, or let me go.


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## bfree

I'd have to say I agree with Dig. I think its time to step back and turn away from him. If he pursues you then maybe you can reconsider but right now it just seems as if you are the only one who really wants to save the marriage. I know you aren't religious but Dr. James Dobson, founder of Focus On The Family, wrote a book years ago called Love Must Be Tough. His advice was that when someone is acting the way your husband seems to be acting chasing them is exactly the wrong thing to do. It just drives them further away. I don't believe there are many religious references in the book so if the author doesn't bother you maybe you should read it. In any case, you need to change the dynamics because what you are both doing now is not working and continuing to do the same thing is just going to give you the same results.

Oh and EI, I've read your story many times and I've never failed to be touched by it. I know its hard for you to go back in time and think about those early days but I don't see them in a negative light. I see your story as a story of triumph and unlimited love by both you and B1. Also, just because you and B1 are inspirations to so many on TAM do not feel as if you need to come back and post. Speaking for myself I pray that you and B1 take care of yourselves and that wonderful family of yours first and foremost. You both need and deserve some peace and quite reflective time. You have earned that right.


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## Robsia

Wow - these were our last few messages:

ME: This is not a game. It's not a power struggle. This is our marriage. If my way isn't working, and you don't have an alternative, I don't see how this is going to work. I want this to work, and I have tried so very hard to make it work. But it obviously hasn't. So I'm turning it over to you. If you want this, then you need to think of a way to make it work. If not, let me go.

HIM: This was about you being critical over my financial ability, not our marriage. You can't go about pissing people off and then expect them to be all loving towards you. If you want to walk away then that is up to you.

ME: I am not talking about that particular argument, I'm talking about the whole thing.

HIM: But until your criticism it was fine. That is generally the way things go when you fall out.

ME: No. It wasn't fine.

HIM: Look you have the money and the papers for a divorce if it would make you happy then file them.

I guess that's me told then, isn't it?


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## EI

Robsia said:


> How's that hiatus working out for you, B1?
> 
> Well, he just texted me. He said "Why are you ignoring me?"
> 
> This implies that he is doing something for me to be ignoring, which he hasn't been. I have heard not a thing from him since the last text he sent me three days ago saying he needed time to stop being upset.
> 
> I briefly considered making him wait three days for my answer, but I'm not that petty so *I replied, saying “I was giving you time to stop being upset, as you asked me to. Have you stopped now?”
> *
> *So far he has not replied. And now the waiting begins again.*


. :slap::slap::slap::slap::slap::slap:


Robbia, Robsia, Robsia, please listen to what everyone is trying to tell you..... Because I swear with all of the vile, disgusting WS knowledge that I have acquired, (not my greatest accomplishment.. BTW ) that if you do what everyone on the "R" thread is strongly encouraging you to do, it will be your greatest chance of turning things around in your favor. I'm not saying that you should be trying to "win" your husband back (because, ultimately, he may not be the prize you want to believe that he is.) But, whatever the outcome, you need to heal and move forward with your self-respect, self-esteem and dignity intact. 

See, you briefly had him...... for a short time you had him wondering what YOU were thinking, what YOU were planning, how YOU were feeling..... THEN, you blew it. You had a very small edge and you threw it away. You have literally been begging this man to do right by you.... His response is doing the exact opposite of what you need.... every.single.time. And, he will continue to do so, because he has ALL of the power and control in your relationship. Why would he not? This is working for him. He cheated, he refuses to give you what you need to heal, he gives you consequences when you pi$$ him off and you accept them. You can NOT control what HE says and does....so, for your own peace of mind, please STOP TRYING TO. But, you CAN control how you respond to his deplorable behavior. He demanded that you give him time to get over being pi$$ed off. So, you gave it to him. He never called you to "cancel" the plans you had made with one another.... he just didn't bother to show up..... If this were a date instead of your husband, would you ever consider marrying this man? 

When you'd done exactly as he requested, by giving him time to get over being pi$$ed off, he called you, 3 days later, as if he were the wronged party, and asked why YOU were ignoring HIM. And, what do you do? You tell him exactly what you were doing. No, you shouldn't have waited three days like he did, but you could have waited at least an hour or so, then texted back with "not ignoring you, I was at the grocery, or in the tub, or out with the girls" or whatever you we're doing..... Any nonchalant response other than letting him know that you were pining over him would have sufficed, quite nicely. But, you let him know that your response was in direct relation to his actions. See, he acts and you react. He's in the driver's seat. You gave the power to him, by following his lead, but I think you CAN take it back...... You might not succeed in getting him to follow your lead, but you sure as He!! shouldn't be following his. You are allowing him to call the shots. 

You cannot DEMAND that he do a certain thing for you or feel a certain way about you. That will backfire and push him further way. But, you do not have to "wait and see" how he is going to direct the terms of your "R." YOU are in complete control of your choices. Start making them for your daughters and for yourself as if he is not a part of the equation. He doesn't seem to be considering you in HIS choices. He will realize, sooner rather than later, that he will have to "earn" his way back into your life. Right now he knows that he can come and go as he pleases. Because you have allowed this. But it is VERY IMPORTANT that you DO NOT tell him what he should be doing or feeling. Telling someone how they SHOULD feel doesn't make them feel that way. It makes them feel defensive and want to put space between you. And, Robsia, you can't guilt, shame or demand someone into loving you..... Human nature dictates that we all want something that we have to work for...... even if just a little. I think the only way for you to potentially save your marriage is for your husband to see that you are going to be just fine with or without him....... And you would be, eventually, even if you don't feel that way, right now. He "expected" you to cave and contact him during those 3 days.... When you didn't, he definitely felt some anxiety. But, he reclaimed any edge you had gained when he acted as though he felt you had wronged him, and you, not wanting to upset the apple cart, immediately assured him that you were simply giving him what he needed. He knew he was wrong..... But, he also knew that you wouldn't want to risk the silent treatment, again, by pi$$ing him off. He played you..... and he won that battle. It is time for you to do a complete and hard "180." Oh geeez, that's the first time I've ever said that.... It feels odd to me..... I like to be nice..... 

I am usually not this direct..... But, I don't know how else to help you see what I (think) the rest of us see very clearly. I know every situation is different, every BS, every WS, every marriage, every infidelity and every reconciliation all have different variables and it's "easy" for random strangers on the internet, whose lives will not be affected one way or the other by the outcome of your marriage to sit back and spew "canned responses" to hurting BS's and unremorseful WS's. But, once again, I'm gonna tell you, that's where this thread is different from the others. We actually do give a damn and we'd much rather you be happy than for any one of us to be proved "right."

Take care (of you and your girls...... your hubby is taking care of himself)
~EI


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## Robsia

^You got all that from me telling the truth? I've never been a liar. It didn't even occur to to me to not be truthful. Otherwise I'm no better than he is.

And you might want to read the post directly above yours. I think I know exactly what I am going to do next.


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## EI

Robsia said:


> ^You got all that from me telling the truth? I've never been a liar. It didn't even occur to to me to not be truthful. Otherwise I'm no better than he is.
> 
> And you might want to read the post directly above yours. I think I know exactly what I am going to do next.


I give..... I wasn't asking you to be a liar or not to tell the truth.... I was encouraging you to not be a doormat. The truth is...... People aren't attracted to doormats. They walk all over them...

I'm genuinely sorry if my post offended you. I've never intentionally tried to offend anyone on TAM. I've truly been burdened for you and I thought that I might be able to help. It seems like you respond better when things are clearly defined rather than you having to do a lot of reading between the lines. So, that's what I was trying to do. Again, please accept my apologies for offending you. I believe I have rubbed you the wrong way in two of my posts now. 

So, with that, I don't really know what else I could offer that might be beneficial to you, so I am going to refrain from commenting on your posts in the future. 

I sincerely hope you find peace and happiness, Robsia.


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## CantSitStill

Robsia what I see is him blaming you for the bad marriage so that he has excuse for his cheating..wow he has a long way to go..Until he takes a real good look at himself and his faults, it will not work. I hope he does this...when I finally looked at my own faults in our marriage,that is when we were able to work on and fix our marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

I wasn't offended. At all. Not quite sure why you got that impression. I was grateful for you taking the time to reply to me. Just because I don't necessarily agree with you doesn't mean I am offended.

I have never been a game player - I am always honest and up front with people. And if I respond anything other than honestly to his text then I am lying. I didn't not reply because of any other reason than because he told me he needed time. If I give him any other reply then I am lying.

Maybe other people make excuses for their lies by telling themselves that they are not 'really' lies.

But I could hardly have spent three days in the bath, could I?


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## CantSitStill

I really believe his reason for acting this way is because he feels guilty and is trying to stuff away his guilt to make himself feel better. I wish he would put your feelings and needs ahead of his so that he can feel what real love is. Sigh, I hope he can through counseling see how he is making it worse with his behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I believe you Robsia because another TAM friend of ours has told us his wife has asp berger and that she is not able to lie. It is a great quality to have . Sorry if I misspelled it, not sure how to spell it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

I CAN lie, I'm just not very good at it, and I prefer not to. I find it morally abhorrent. I can only lie effectively if I know I have to in advance and I can prepare for it. And even then, I don't like doing it.

Unfortunately in a world where most people lie as easily as they breathe, it makes us vulnerable.

Anyway, now that he has basically told me to go ahead with the divorce, the whole thing is moot anyway.


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## CantSitStill

Btw hi Bfree! Haven't seen you in a while
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Robsia I wish your hubby would come here and talk to us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

CantSitStill said:


> Robsia I wish your hubby would come here and talk to us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would go over well...


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## CantSitStill

SomedayDig said:


> That would go over well...


Well dang it! He needs a good talking to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Ohhh...I know CSS...and I'd probably be the first one to say it.

Then get banned.

Permanently.

For a 3rd Permaban.


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## Robsia

I mean, how do I even respond to "Look you have the money and the papers for a divorce if it would make you happy then file them."?

So far I haven't.

I'm thinking the only response is just to send them off to the solicitor.


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## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> I mean, how do I even respond to "Look you have the money and the papers for a divorce if it would make you happy then file them."?
> 
> So far I haven't.
> 
> I'm thinking the only response is just to send them off to the solicitor.


I could be wrong but this very much sounds like someone who doesn't believe you'll do it. 

I threw the D word at C&B during the dark times for two reasons, one was to see if he really would and another because I could not face what I had done. 

Each time I did it and he responded that he would, I broke down. 

I'm not hearing anything remorseful from him. Is that absent entirely at this point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Right now I don't know WTF is going on. He blanks me for three days then when I ask him for some ideas of where we go from here because I'm all out, he throws the D word at me.


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## TCSRedhead

It definitely the wrong attitude. Period. Even without the infidelity to overcome, that behavior isn't acceptable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Robsia said:


> I mean, how do I even respond to "Look you have the money and the papers for a divorce if it would make you happy then file them."?
> 
> So far I haven't.
> 
> I'm thinking the only response is just to send them off to the solicitor.


Maybe the best response is no response.


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## CantSitStill

Well at a time not long ago,I told Calvin if he really wanted a divorce that I would do whatever possible to make it easy for him. The difference is, I didn't want a divorce but thought it might be the only way he would be happy and I was wrong and was so glad I was wrong because there is no way in hell I want a divorce. I just wanted to take his pain away and I can't and: it hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

CantSitStill said:


> Well at a time not long ago,I told Calvin if he really wanted a divorce that I would do whatever possible to make it easy for him. The difference is, I didn't want a divorce but thought it might be the only way he would be happy and I was wrong and was so glad I was wrong because there is no way in hell I want a divorce. I just wanted to take his pain away and I can't and: it hurts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But I know my husband - he is calling my bluff. It's still a sick game for him, still a power thing.

I can't live my life like this.


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## bfree

Robsia said:


> But I know my husband - he is calling my bluff. It's still a sick game for him, still a power thing.
> 
> I can't live my life like this.


Then don't. It is completely your choice.


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## Robsia

I'm bloody not. I'm posting the forms on Monday. He wants a divorce? He's getting one.


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia - Because I do tend to hang on to hope, I gravitate toward
Shirley Glass & Michele Wiener-Davis' writings.
Not Just Friends & Divorce Busting authors.
Both advocate avoiding divorce - it's not usually for the best
In their view.
The 180 - Wiener-Davis' idea - is not game playing.
You can do it without lying. It's worth trying before D.
Just think of turning away, a 180 degree turn.
No pursuing. Be slow to respond - no need to explain why.
Go about your life aiming for making yourself happy.
Hope that he might wonder what you're up to, but if not, OK.
Don't assume he wants D from his response - I'm not convinced.
It costs $$ to proceed & better to be sure you both want it 
before starting down that path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Today just flat out sucks,I'm questioning everything I did,the way I handled everything,the way I responded.
I've been fighting it since my feet hit the floor.
I had been in such a good place for a couple of weeks,now this.
Nothing triggered me,its just a bad day with everything going through my damn head.
I did everything wrong,I should have stopped and looked at my options,I went too fast.

Bad day I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Guess we'll play some Wii,that might be good.
Hate today.
Sorry guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin, notice how many more good days are occuring in between the bad ones? First i was more bad days than good ones. Then it was split evenly, then it was two good days and a bad one. Then it was several good days strung together. Now its two weeks between bad days. I see a pattern....do you? Major progress brother.

For a long time even after I remarried I would get angry at my exW for what she put me through. It took me years to work through those feelings so there are no timetables only directions. And you're moving in the right direction.

And you didn't do everything wrong at all. I read your threads. You were incredible in the way you handled what was thrown at you. And you continue to do all the right things.


----------



## calvin

I feel like sh!t.
Time for the Wii,little competition between me and CSS will help.
I have no idea where this came from today,things were going so good.
I'll let her beat me on a few games and see how we feel.
I know we aren't giving up.......ugh.....why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Today just flat out sucks,I'm questioning everything I did,the way I handled everything,the way I responded.
> I've been fighting it since my feet hit the floor.
> I had been in such a good place for a couple of weeks,now this.
> Nothing triggered me,its just a bad day with everything going through my damn head.
> I did everything wrong,I should have stopped and looked at my options,I went too fast.
> 
> Bad day I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang in there, Calvin. It's a bad day, but it will pass. They're getting farther apart and fewer between.


----------



## calvin

Well she beat me 4-2 in baseball,let's see what happens with tennise.
I really dig the Wii golf,good stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Well she beat me 4-2 in baseball,let's see what happens with tennise.
> I really dig the Wii golf,good stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The Mrs and I really love Wii bowling. She says it let's her get her frustrations out without having to hit me. Lol


----------



## calvin

I'm hiding,in clear view,never let them see you sweat,most of all never let them see you cry,its a sign of weakness.
So many good days and then I just get nailed with memories.
I'm doing my best to push them out of my head,its hard as hell.
What do you do when you were cast off for someone else?
I think I am the backup plan,safe,secure and all that happy sh!t.
POS could not do what I do on a daily basis.
She says she doesn't know why she wanted him over me,there must be a reason.
How can you leave someone to fend for themselves when they are begging for help???
This isn't right.
What am I guilty off to have to go through this??
Damn it all and everything else.
Did not have to fvck with my head like this.
So wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

You are not a plan B Calvin..I wish I could answer that question but all I remember is I was not happy with you at the time but I am willing to move forward. Please stay the course honey , we love each other and yes we belong together. It will get better it already has.
_Posted via Mobile Device_ Also you did not deserve it, I know it was my fault. Please forgive me and trust that I won't do it again.


----------



## calvin

Much better,I have really had success in fighting back the bad thoughts that creep into my head,this time it was a battle.
I won.
The war in ny head still goes on but the tide is turnning for me.
CSS like other WS's on here are a critical part of the fight to get back not where we where but something better.
I still have to hang on and give her this chance,no I didn't derseve this but she does deserve a shot.
Just like EI,CM,Mrs.M and others,all are good women who fvcked up.
As a BS I have to explore all options,so far R is best for me and my family.
I pray for all of us every night,even if I'm not big with religion.
I can wish but it takes a lot of work.
Take care of eachother people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

So, I haven't been on in 8 days. I hadn't realized it had been so long. Things are not well here and I honestly just don't want to do this anymore. Some will probably think I am not remorseful and I truly do not care. No one knows what it was like here for so long. Our daughter is so screwed up and I know I am partially to blame. I can guarantee Joe's little revenge affair did not help, not to mention all the names he called me that our kids got to hear. In the beginning, I believed I deserved everything he dished out. Now, I don't. Neither one of us acted like the adults we are supposed to be. The derogatory names, the little digs and smart ass comments during that time, did a number on me. I just don't care anymore. I hope he finds happiness I really do, it just isn't with me.

I won't be logging back on to this site. If anyone wants to stay in touch you can still pm me. I will get the alert in my email. EI, feel free to text/call if you want. I wish all of you on this thread, peace, love and happiness. 

Pidge


----------



## Acabado

I'm sorry things came to this point pidge.
Continued healing no matter what.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> So, I haven't been on in 8 days. I hadn't realized it had been so long. Things are not well here and I honestly just don't want to do this anymore. Some will probably think I am not remorseful and I truly do not care. No one knows what it was like here for so long. Our daughter is so screwed up and I know I am partially to blame. I can guarantee Joe's little revenge affair did not help, not to mention all the names he called me that our kids got to hear. In the beginning, I believed I deserved everything he dished out. Now, I don't. Neither one of us acted like the adults we are supposed to be. The derogatory names, the little digs and smart ass comments during that time, did a number on me. I just don't care anymore. I hope he finds happiness I really do, it just isn't with me.
> 
> I won't be logging back on to this site. If anyone wants to stay in touch you can still pm me. I will get the alert in my email. EI, feel free to text/call if you want. I wish all of you on this thread, peace, love and happiness.
> 
> Pidge


Pidge I'm sorry I left you out,I know you're remorseful as hell,you're a good woman.I mean that.
Please forgive yourself and Joe,he I think needs to do the same.
You came to my defense a few times pidge,I really appreciate it.
I never called CSS names,never even though it but no one should have to hear that,just wrong.
Joe? Come on man,do you really want her gone? I don't thing you do.
Give her this chance man,I am for CSS.pidge deserves it.
Your reward can be great,she's regretful and sorry as hell,lighten up Joe.
You betrayed also.
Praying for you both,don't give up,you'll never know if you don't try.
Christ I hate this crap but it can be repaired.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'm going to start doing a joke a day on this thread and mine,different jokes on each thread.
I like the blonde jokes,especially since CSS and EI are blondes,good looking ones at that.
I'll do them in the mornings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Pidge, nobody needs to live like that. If you are miserable then there is nothing wrong with getting out. You tried and it didn't work. Do not beat yourself up for that. I hope you find happiness soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> I'm going to start doing a joke a day on this thread and mine,different jokes on each thread.
> I like the blonde jokes,especially since CSS and EI are blondes,good looking ones at that.
> I'll do them in the mornings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know how other blondes feel about it but I like blonde jokes...yep I'm weird like that. LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

FYI....Regret is a blonde.


----------



## CantSitStill

Cool...blondes are so blonde that they think they are the coolest  :hehe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Cool...blondes are so blonde that they think they are the coolest  :hehe
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well,I beat her in Wii bowling this time!
I am getting better....little rusty,I think we ought to take bets on the game!
Seriously,this is a good way for us to compete against eachother and have some laughs.
I think marriage counselors should suggest this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> FYI....Regret is a blonde.


My exW is a blonde.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> My exW is a blonde.


Ok then,I start with bonde jokes tomorrow.
Night peoples.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

Not a good day for triggers, I see. I had a bad one today too. Triggered not only about the A but everything my life in my head. The loss is so over whelming I am thinking I am grieving over the loss of many things, from the marriage and dreams to the cat and burying my ex 4 months after finding ot about the A, plus another friend. The loss of the grand kids right now. In looking back I see a lot of loss and it seems to come on the heels of another loss no time in between to recover. We went to dinner tonight. I wasn't sure I could make it through but I did cheerfully. MC tomorrow and I'm not sure I want him there I think I need to address some issues with me, see if I even want to deal with this new life I will have to live with. One thing I am sure of, there is no doubt in my mind, my 3 dogs are loyal to me especially my two youngest ones.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

It's tough here again too. Matt thinks that he just wants to slowly let our relationship burn out. He says we don't have to pour water on it, but that we shouldn't feed it either. He's been sleeping upstairs the last 4 nights and I am just a mess. I can't sleep without him, my body and mind are exhausted, and my emotions are so close to the surface, that its hard for me to hold together. 

It's really difficult for me to process that 2 weeks ago we were talking about a trip together, and now he thinks we're over. He has agreed to do some MC with me via the phone... which is wonderful. But he is afraid a pro-marriage counselor will just "trick" him into staying and that he will regret it in the future. I hope that whatever the outcome of MC is, that we can both move forward on our individual healing with some more targeted help. Either Matt will realize 100% that he is done with me, and hopefully the counseling can help me accept that and recover from the grief, or it will help us see what we have to build on and assist us in refinding the love in our relationship.

Matt told me tonight that he doesn't think he loves me anymore. I pray that it's not completely gone, but I know it is horribly, horribly damaged. Please, any strength and positivity you can share with us would be welcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Mrs M,
Matt is on his roller coaster. There are days too when I question my love for my H. I had a very tough week last week and for the first time really considered leaving. I just felt so alone and unhappy. I'm still not 100% sure but I'm not about to bail any time soon.
This is still tough, over a year into R! Please Mrs M, just give it time. My IC told me to just take it a day at a time, don't try and plan too far ahead and try to relax. When I put these things into practice it really does help.

H and I had a good talk Friday evening. We did the usual thing where I get upset, he gets defensive, then we calm down and get to the bottom of it. I told him I'm not happy, that I almost have a self fulfilling prophecy going on. I'm afraid of being abandoned, so I'm pushing him away so he can't hurt me again. He's not going anywhere. He loves me, he's staying.

I'm going to the GP this week I think I need some medication to help me with the anxiety and 'depression' I am feeling. That little grey cloud over my head needs its butt kicked out of town.
I'm willing my positive attitude to return also. It's so easy to focus on the negative when I have so much to be grateful for.

Pidge - I'm sorry to hear your update. My thoughts are with you.
Calvin - I'm blonde to. There's a pic of me on this board somewhere!

Milton said : 
Within everyone, there is heaven and hell.
Choose heaven - release the regret and the guilt.
Remember that through love,
God will ease your pain and cement you back together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It's tough here again too. Matt thinks that he just wants to slowly let our relationship burn out. He says we don't have to pour water on it, but that we shouldn't feed it either. He's been sleeping upstairs the last 4 nights and I am just a mess. I can't sleep without him, my body and mind are exhausted, and my emotions are so close to the surface, that its hard for me to hold together.
> 
> It's really difficult for me to process that 2 weeks ago we were talking about a trip together, and now he thinks we're over. He has agreed to do some MC with me via the phone... which is wonderful. But he is afraid a pro-marriage counselor will just "trick" him into staying and that he will regret it in the future. I hope that whatever the outcome of MC is, that we can both move forward on our individual healing with some more targeted help. Either Matt will realize 100% that he is done with me, and hopefully the counseling can help me accept that and recover from the grief, or it will help us see what we have to build on and assist us in refinding the love in our relationship.
> 
> Matt told me tonight that he doesn't think he loves me anymore. I pray that it's not completely gone, but I know it is horribly, horribly damaged. Please, any strength and positivity you can share with us would be welcome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MM, it isn't over , until it's over. Look at Sweetie and I. Almost 3 years ago, she cheated , disrespected me and I kicked her to the curb. I hated her and all she embodied. I was far happier without her, recognized this and had put my marriage in the grave. Now look at us. She is without doubt the best woman I know, she loves me like never before, and is IMHO, a poster child for what a remorseful FWS should be. I may be a little prejudiced.
We are happier than even before our marriage, and our family has weathered the storm and is stronger than it ever was , too.
She thinks I'm the greatest, sexiest, most wonderful man alive, and every action, word and thought she has is constant proof of this. I know this will sound crazy but it is ALMOST worth the pain we had, to reach where we are now. So, don't give up and don't get impatient. Whatever happens , I hope that BOTH of you will be better persons for your pains, too.


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## Rookie4

BTW, I hope that you posters will share a little love with Sweetie. Friday night we got home from a dinner date and Sweetie's beloved cat had passed away. We have had this cat for almost 20 years and it was Sweetie's best friend. Sweetie is completely inconsolable and has cried for hours each day. I'm not a cat person, but this was a truly great pet and a wonderful companion, she willed be missed terribly.


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## SomedayDig

Oh no...being a cat person, my heart goes out to you guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PreRaphaelite

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It's tough here again too. Matt thinks that he just wants to slowly let our relationship burn out. He says we don't have to pour water on it, but that we shouldn't feed it either. He's been sleeping upstairs the last 4 nights and I am just a mess. I can't sleep without him, my body and mind are exhausted, and my emotions are so close to the surface, that its hard for me to hold together.
> 
> It's really difficult for me to process that 2 weeks ago we were talking about a trip together, and now he thinks we're over. He has agreed to do some MC with me via the phone... which is wonderful. But he is afraid a pro-marriage counselor will just "trick" him into staying and that he will regret it in the future. I hope that whatever the outcome of MC is, that we can both move forward on our individual healing with some more targeted help. Either Matt will realize 100% that he is done with me, and hopefully the counseling can help me accept that and recover from the grief, or it will help us see what we have to build on and assist us in refinding the love in our relationship.
> 
> Matt told me tonight that he doesn't think he loves me anymore. I pray that it's not completely gone, but I know it is horribly, horribly damaged. Please, any strength and positivity you can share with us would be welcome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't interpret his remarks as absolute truth. When he says that he doesn't love you anymore, it means that he still wants to communicate with you, even if it's to hurt you a little. If he didn't love you anymore he probably wouldn't say. 

Just don't grovel or beg. Be there for him without throwing yourself on him. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that. You must know it 10x better than I after what you've been through.


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## calvin

Morning everyone,I'm sorry to hear all the sad news,I hope things get better for you all.
My cat died a few years ago Rookie,had her 18 years,she would play fetch.
I cried for a couple days and I'm not much of a cat person.
CSS....er a Blonde goes to get her hair cut,she's wearing headphones,she tells the lady cutting her hair not to touch the headphones,just to cut around them.
The woman cutting her hair can't take it any longer and pulls off the headphones,the blonde gasps and drops over dead.
The stylist picks up the headphones and hears "breathe in,breath out,breathe in,breathe out" over and over.
I thought it was funny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> So, I haven't been on in 8 days. I hadn't realized it had been so long. Things are not well here and I honestly just don't want to do this anymore. Some will probably think I am not remorseful and I truly do not care. No one knows what it was like here for so long. Our daughter is so screwed up and I know I am partially to blame. I can guarantee Joe's little revenge affair did not help, not to mention all the names he called me that our kids got to hear. In the beginning, I believed I deserved everything he dished out. Now, I don't. Neither one of us acted like the adults we are supposed to be. The derogatory names, the little digs and smart ass comments during that time, did a number on me. I just don't care anymore. I hope he finds happiness I really do, it just isn't with me.
> 
> I won't be logging back on to this site. If anyone wants to stay in touch you can still pm me. I will get the alert in my email. EI, feel free to text/call if you want. I wish all of you on this thread, peace, love and happiness.
> 
> Pidge


I'm so sorry, Pidge. I will call you, sometime, today. But, you know that you can call me, too, anytime.


----------



## EI

Pidge, jupiter, Mrs. M., daisygirl, everyone...

I'm really trying to take a break from the threads for a few weeks, but I just had to let you know that my thoughts and prayers are with each of you and your families.

I wish I had more to offer, right now.... but, some days I'm just hanging on by a thread, myself. B1 and I are okay.... and we are going to continue to be okay...... of that I am convinced, but we are coming up on a year since D-Day and there seem to be triggers all over the place. And, of course, there is always the (ab)normal "stuff" in life that must be dealt with, as well. I'm checking in on the "R" thread, just not as often.... more like 3 times a day instead of 100.....  You other _TAMaddicts_ know exactly what I mean.

Rookie..... I sent a pm for Sweetie. 

If anyone needs me, I'm a pm or a phone call away......

I love you guys..... <3


----------



## EI

There are an awful lot of blondes on this thread..... God help us all........

bfree...... you are wrong. Some of us "over 21" are "natural blondes." I *do not* dye my hair. I bleach it, naturally!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> There are an awful lot of blondes on this thread..... God help us all........
> 
> bfree...... you are wrong. Some of us "over 21" are "natural blondes." I *do not* dye my hair. I bleach it, naturally!


If CSS ever changes her hair color I'm gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

MM - hang in there. This is a low period which means a high period is on the horizon. Spend time focusing on your son, focus on the baby coming and yourself right now. It's ok to do this, in fact, it's a necessary thing right now. 

Your health and emotional well being are critical right now for your son's sake as well as nourishing this child you're carrying.


----------



## CantSitStill

And I do not bleach my hair, I just use Nice and Easy lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Not a full out blonde but I am naturally a strawberry blonde.


----------



## CantSitStill

Sweetie it is so hard losing your cat, we have our first child (my cat) buried in our backyard she was 18 yrs old. I felt better when we got our beagle. She has been such a joy. The first thing I did was find out how many years beagles live. It is so hard when they die. My heart goes out to you : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Mrs.M. I hope things get better over there. This is terrifying for both of you. Just keep hangin on and keep praying. We have had a lot of rough times also because of my selfish EA. It sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Good day today,things keep getting better,I still have a bad day once in awhile but things are so much different then they were six months or a year ago.
I feel for all of you still hurting and pray it gets better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Rookie/Sweetie - I'm so sorry about the loss of your cat. Our pets are our babies too.


----------



## Robsia

Well, guess who came to see me this afternoon? I had just had a shower and there was a ring at the bell, and he was standing there, his face grim.

I invited him in, and we had coffee and talked. He wanted to know why I had been so reticent on texts lately. I said it was clear that what I had been doing before hadn’t worked, that I was pushing him away. So, I stopped doing it. I also told him that I was getting on with my life. He said that sounded like I was preparing to get on with it without him. I said, yes, if necessary.

I realised the other day that since D-day, everything he has done is because I have told him to do it, or suggested that we do it. The only thing he did that I didn't suggest, or tell him to do, was buy me some flowers the other day, which was nice, but that was the only thing I could think of that had come from him, and not me.

So I put it to him that because all this was coming from me, that I was EXPECTING him to comply, he was resisting me, and resenting me. He was doing some of it, but not all.

I told him that I felt I was steering the ship, and he was just along for the ride. So I put it to him that I was emotionally exhausted, and tired of steering the ship, that I needed him to steer for a while. I reminded him, nicely, that he was supposed to be impressing me and said that if I was doing all the work, I wasn’t giving him a chance to do that. So I was going to stop steering, and let him impress me. He seemed at a loss to know how to do that. So I told him he was a grown-up, and an intelligent man, that I was sure he could think up ways to impress a woman.

I said all this in a very calm, detached sort of way. So all we have to do now is wait and see what he does with it.

Rookie, sorry about your cat - we lost ours this time last year to a car accident. It was tragic. We got a call from the vet who had traced her through the microchip and I'd only seen her fifteen minutes earlier - I was looking around the house for her, very insistent to the vet that they'd got the wrong cat. Of course they hadn't. She had gone out and shot straight out into the road. The driver had taken her to the nearest vet, which happened to be ours, to see if she could be saved but sadly she couldn't. We were all out in the garden crying, even my H.


----------



## jupiter13

I am sooooo sorry to hear about your cat. I lost both of mine within months of d-day. I blame the negative universal vibrations WH brought into the home. Yeah I blamed him. MC was ok. H says he just refuses to remember bad stuff that makes him feel bad that way he moves on. Funny he remembers every little thing I did or didn't do that made him feel bad or hurt his feelings. How convenient. BUT he is willing to answer my questions, ask away, he'll try to remember. We'll he answered some at MC and of course now I'm feeling like a worthless piece of SH~t. I know it will get worst. I'm not sure I will get through this or over this. I think my own personal issues are going to drown me. I know this has to be a man thing, so anyone have opions please say something. My birthday is next month. I was actually born on Mother's Day. So for my birthday he bought me one of those hand crafted Amish jewelery chests. I know I have mentioned this before but I got pearls for Xmas, Diamonds for something before that and something else. All very expensive. Why do I feel like a *****? Isn't this what most men do to show they love you shower you with gifts they know you like the more expensive the more he loves me? I confuses me yet I know I should be grateful. I would be so much happier with a $10.00 box from Wal-mart if all this never happened. I didn't want to give up my dreams I don't want to live with this in my head and the pain in my heart is as fresh as the day it happened.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Great progress Robsia!!!! Keeping my fingers crossed for you!


----------



## frozen

This thread it's a behemoth, can't read it all. Are there any preferences to what/who should post here? As both a BS & WS I don't want to trigger anyone with my story, should it ever get fully posted


----------



## SomedayDig

frozen said:


> This thread it's a behemoth, can't read it all. Are there any preferences to what/who should post here? As both a BS & WS I don't want to trigger anyone with my story, should it ever get fully posted


Everyone is welcome, Frozen. We have everyone from both sides of the infidelity rainbow!

And don't worry about triggers. Hell, Calvin gets triggered if a bird chirps too loudly and I trigger when people breathe improperly.

It's all cool.


----------



## CantSitStill

Lol Dig, anyway, we have both betrayed and former waywards here. You are welcome here as long as you respect all. We are all people trying hard through the struggles of reconciliation. Don't be afraid to post your story here. The people here are very considerate and will not bash you. That is why I like it here so much, I feel safe here as a former WS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frozen

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> Everyone is welcome, Frozen. We have everyone from both sides of the infidelity rainbow!
> 
> And don't worry about triggers. Hell, Calvin gets triggered if a bird chirps too loudly and I trigger when people breathe improperly.
> 
> It's all cool.


Thanks SomedayDig, glad to see colors here there's so much black and white in CWI, LOL!


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Everyone is welcome, Frozen. We have everyone from both sides of the infidelity rainbow!
> 
> And don't worry about triggers. Hell, Calvin gets triggered if a bird chirps too loudly and I trigger when people breathe improperly.
> 
> It's all cool.


Gee thanks Dig,I don't trigger....wait a minute,I think I heard a damn Robin,those birds remind me of everything that went wrong in my life!!
I did freak a lot but it really is getting better...for real.
Welcome Frozen,let it hang out Lot of good ears here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

frozen said:


> Thanks SomedayDig, glad to see colors here there's so much black and white in CWI, LOL!


Yeah...now, don't get me wrong - this thread is active with people working on reconciliation. It doesn't mean that we don't have strong words when something ain't right. What it does mean, is you won't get bashed in here cuz you choose reconciliation over divorce. Again...that doesn't mean that if divorce seems to be what's best we'll be quiet about it. Nah...we'll tell ya if you're f'ng up too much in that department. 



calvin said:


> Gee thanks Dig,I don't trigger....wait a minute,I think I heard a damn Robin,those birds remind me of everything that went wrong in my life!!
> I did freak a lot but it really is getting better...for real.
> Welcome Frozen,let it hang out Lot of good ears here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Damn robins. Piss me off so much I can't even go to Red Robin.......yummmm...without triggering.


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Everyone is welcome, Frozen. We have everyone from both sides of the infidelity rainbow!
> 
> And don't worry about triggers. Hell, Calvin gets triggered if a bird chirps too loudly and I trigger when people breathe improperly.
> 
> It's all cool.


Gee thanks Dig,I don't trigger....wait a minute,I think I heard a damn Robin,those birds remind me of everything that went wrong in my life!!
I did freak a lot but it really is getting better...for real.
Welcome Frozen,let it hang out Lot of good ears here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

frozen said:


> This thread it's a behemoth, can't read it all. Are there any preferences to what/who should post here? As both a BS & WS I don't want to trigger anyone with my story, should it ever get fully posted


You've found the right thread. We accept BS's, WS's, triggers, MasterCard and Visa......  Just kidding about the MasterCard and Visa part...... But, seriously, this is a thread where everyone is welcome to share their story. We have an open dialogue here between BS's and WS's and have found that we can learn a lot from one another. We skip the verbal attacks that are so popular on some of the other threads. So, please feel free to share your story with us.


----------



## EI

I am so slow, in the time it took me to post my comment there were already five more than when I started my post. That's why my "EI" sized posts drain the ever livin' life outta me (and probably you guys, as well.) 

Carry on................


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## SomedayDig

I think they're changing the Matrix. I just heard Calvin say the same thing twice. 

Odd...that happened right after Frozen came in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Lol I thought I was drunk and seeing double..but seriously we try our best to support each other. I believe this thread has gotten a lot of couples to post on here together. Before this thread I thought Calvin and I were the only ones, then I found EI and B1 and was so happy to have them to talk to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Sweetie and Rookie, I'm so sorry to hear about your cat. We have two, and even though I feel like I hate one most days, when he we t missing for a couple weeks 2 years ago, I was so sad. Thinking of you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> I think they're changing the Matrix. I just heard Calvin say the same thing twice.
> 
> Odd...that happened right after Frozen came in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did I?

Did I?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Its good,had to do some work on my daughters car,I have to clip my Beagles talons and brush her.
Minds going South,body wants to go North.
Yankees...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

My Beagle is like Arnold the pig from Green Acres,got her nails done but ot was a pain in the ass.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

My big fat cutie pie baby...she is so spoiled 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

frozen said:


> Thanks SomedayDig, glad to see colors here there's so much black and white in CWI, LOL!


Don't believe anything that Somedaydig tells you. If you even mention "Alpha", he will bash the crap out of you. I, on the other hand, am widely considered the most cuddly member of the R thread, and am known far and wide as a truly sweet and empathetic man. 
So welcome aboard. We do group hugs constantly. Shuffleboard is on the promenade deck.


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## Rookie4

I'm the project engineer. I do things that nobody else in the company knows or wants to know about. I read a lot of graphs, charts, take measurements, and do some hocus-pocus on the computer (usually involving sorcery) and then go out to the floor to see that the peasants are properly docile, hard-working, well-fed, and chastised. It's what I do.
I come home fully expecting to see a red-eyed, snotty-nosed, flannel pajama-ed Linda Blair wannabe on the sofa surrounded by tissues, candy wrappers, and empty beer cans. But what do I find? A vision of female beauty, in lbd (Very tight in all the proper places) and pearls. I'm so impressed that I immediately try to take off her lbd and do some high-end nuzzling. But wait!!! What is that I smell? Besides hot woman? Yes, it's leg of lamb!!!!!!!!! With twice baked potatoes, creamed peas and pearl onions, and mint sauce. Caesar salad (with anchovies), homemade bread, and home-baked peach custard pie for desert. I could have cried. Why am I so lucky? What did I ever do to deserve this treatment? Is she the absolute best woman on Earth, or what?


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## old timer

Just returned home from a mini-vacation to find an expected divorce summons.

Next...

.


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## calvin

Morning....ugh,hate these early starts at work.
Groups hugs Rookie? I'm in!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

old timer said:


> Just returned home from a mini-vacation to find an expected divorce summons.
> 
> Next...
> 
> .


I'm so sorry, OT.


----------



## daisygirl 41

old timer said:


> Just returned home from a mini-vacation to find an expected divorce summons.
> 
> Next...
> 
> .


Sorry OT. ray:


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Morning....ugh,hate these early starts at work.
> Groups hugs Rookie? I'm in!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


AS the Newby, Frozen gets first hug, it's kind of an unwritten law of TAM.


----------



## Rookie4

old timer said:


> Just returned home from a mini-vacation to find an expected divorce summons.
> 
> Next...
> 
> .


Your marriage train has derailed. Time to get on board the Freedom Train, OT.


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## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> I'm the project engineer. I do things that nobody else in the company knows or wants to know about. I read a lot of graphs, charts, take measurements, and do some hocus-pocus on the computer (usually involving sorcery) and then go out to the floor to see that the peasants are properly docile, hard-working, well-fed, and chastised. It's what I do.
> I come home fully expecting to see a red-eyed, snotty-nosed, flannel pajama-ed Linda Blair wannabe on the sofa surrounded by tissues, candy wrappers, and empty beer cans. But what do I find? A vision of female beauty, in lbd (Very tight in all the proper places) and pearls. I'm so impressed that I immediately try to take off her lbd and do some high-end nuzzling. But wait!!! What is that I smell? Besides hot woman? Yes, it's leg of lamb!!!!!!!!! With twice baked potatoes, creamed peas and pearl onions, and mint sauce. Caesar salad (with anchovies), homemade bread, and home-baked peach custard pie for desert. I could have cried. Why am I so lucky? What did I ever do to deserve this treatment? Is she the absolute best woman on Earth, or what?


Wow Rookie.
So much for my diet after reading that post.

Dessert sounded better than the excellent dinner.....


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## old timer

Rookie4 said:


> Your marriage train has derailed. Time to get on board the Freedom Train, OT.


Reserved my seat some time ago, Rookie

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Wow this thread is catching up to mine on posts. Only a couple more thousand...lol I talk here more than I do my own anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

I have some questions for you! I am a romantic at heart. I always dreamed of the prefect marriage my knight in shinning armor, my one and only. 
1. I took his ring, the ring I put on his finger (which even though I have been married before I never put a ring on a mans finger.) So it means so much more to me symbolically. The depth of my commitment to this marriage was very intense. Entering into this fully aware of all the ramifications this document held. :rules:I don't wear the one he bought for me, I do wear the one I bought while mine was in repair. The diamond no longer sparkles even in the sun. It is like, it knows it's been broken. I can't wear it without crying. So do I use these rings to get new ones when or if we renew vows? Do I keep them forever hidden in a box, bottom drawer? Sadder still is I really love my ring but I couldn't even have another one like it. It represents to much pain, loss, the ultimate betrayal.
2. I will never be his one and only. I will never be able to call him my faithful loving husband. What do I call him? Hey You? I am no longer feeling special. How can I feel special to someone that can disrespects me like this? He did say I was special cause he choose me. Yeah? Well? Look what else you choose. Do you ever get that feeling back that you are special that this relationship is special? I don't know if this is mean or not but I have always signed my cards to him "Your ever Faithful Loving Wife" I debated changing that but I did Not! I am privileged and I'm proud of me that I "can" say those words. I'm thinking I shouldn't because it is like I'm rubbing his nose in it but why should I change what I've written for years. Or should I?
3. The big one trust, I understand it will take time how long who knows. I do trust him in certain areas in our life, in our world and have no problem there. He wants me to trust him with my feelings, my thoughts, my wants. I can't! I've exposed more here about my feelings than I have shared actually with him. I think? Some things I know I shouldn't say or share because they are hurtful. Then there are the things I want to say that are very nasty hurtful and biting my lip does not release the anger behind my words. I just can't see myself ever trusting him 110% even 100% again. It would take pages to explain why I don't trust anyone, everyone is kept an arm length away. Except back to the beginning I did trust him 110%+ that is why I said yes. He was that special to me. I'm not sure what to do with this just let more time go by and see where it goes? He has done a couple things that have me questioning my trust level. I know everyone has trust issues. Basically, this constant worry about the other shoe dropping or whats next, almost to the point of paranoia helps create the anxiety in me which lead to panic attacks etc etc.... I'm trying to get out of the house. Do I need to have trust in him, my home or who what? I'm stuck on this. How do you handle the day to day levels of trust with your partner? 
Here I sit writing and reading on TAM when my paperwork is piled so high it is disgusting. 
Thank you for allowing me to ask my silly questions and post some real dumb answers myself. Enjoy all of you.:bounce:


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## calvin

The trust does come back Jupiter,the feeling of being special also comes back but it all depends on the way your WS is showing you how sorry they are.
Showing you how much they realise how bad they f'd things up,showing with their actions without any proding.
Sad thing is I think a certain level of hurt will always stay,at least for me,it may go away later,I don't know.
Its hard knowing they wanted someone else over you,in my case very hard.
My wife is doing good with helping me cope and heal,it takes years.
Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Ahhh...trust. Pain, hurt, betrayal...then, trust.

It's a tough and winding road. Some of us in reconciliation wish we had a GPS cuz that road sometimes leads to a Dead End and we gotta turn around and find yet another road. 

Not that it's wrong, but sometimes when we're driving down that lonely road, we keep looking in the rearview mirror. We need that mirror there to keep us safe from something coming up from behind us and ramming us. We need that mirror there for a safety check.

But...we can't drive down that road properly if we keep looking in that rearview mirror. We can't keep it on the road and between the lines focusing on that mirror.

Trust starts one foot at a time down a thousand mile road (heavily borrowed that idea). You can only begin to trust by going a foot at a time. Before you know it 10 feet, 100 feet and a mile has gone past and you're cruising on.

But...check the rearview just for a moment. Make sure there's nothing back there that's gonna ram into you. Just a safety check is all. Not staring at it.

It's been weeks ~ maybe a month or so since I've asked Regret any questions about her affair.

But...yesterday, I checked the rearview just for a moment. A safety check. That's all it was. A quick look and my eyes were back focused on the road ahead. It was okay. We were both okay with my safety check. She knows I have to. She's willing and ready for it. It's what keeps me ON the road ahead.

She wears the rings I bought her. She never wore them when she was with him.

Yet, still...I bought myself a new ring last year for our wedding anniversary. It was my gift to myself. I wanted to feel good about what I was wearing and every time I looked at my other ring, my heart sank. I was such a puddle of sadness. Our rings were made for us by a jeweler. Hers is white gold trim with yellow gold woven braiding. Mine is yellow gold trim with white gold woven braiding. They are both beautiful pieces.

I miss mine.

But I was so hurt by her betrayal. My trust...the trust that I had from her was stolen by the one person in this world that I loved more than anything in it.

In 75 days we are moving from Upstate New York to Central Florida. We both know it's for the best. It's scary and exciting. It's an adventure and a test. I will be able to leave behind this house. This house filled with ghosts and triggers. Roads and hotels nearby - gone from my sight.

Yet, as I drive down that road to Florida. More than a thousand miles away, I will keep my eyes fixed firmly on the road ahead.

And I'll still give a small safety check of my rearview mirror. Just for a moment.

And I'll feel safer.

And maybe...just maybe...I'll look at my ring again in our new home.

Maybe.


----------



## Robsia

Ah - the rings.

Is it contrary of me to want my WH to wear his, but struggle with wearing mine?

The first concrete hint I had of the A was finding his wedding ring in his bedside table drawer. Turned out he only wore it when he was with me. He took it off whenever he wasn't. Now I want him to wear it all the time as a symbol of his commitment to me...but I struggle to wear mine as it is a reminder of the pain and hurt.

I feel as Dig does - I miss my ring. I love my ring so much. It was a symbol of our love. But it feels tainted.

*envisions entire R thread bursting into "Tainted Love"*

Now I've given you an earworm I shall depart.


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## CantSitStill

Through every fight every good and bad time of our marriage I never took my wedding band off. The day he kicked me out and gave me his ring I took mine off and kept them in my purse. I deep down felt as long as I had my ring on I wanted to stay stay married to Calvin. I really never stopped loving him. It's weird because I told him I wanted a divorce and that I didn't love him but damn deep down I knew I was lying to him and myself. I can't even explain why I put him thru all that hell. I put myself thru hell and feel like we are still going thru hell from my past actions. I know that none of this makes sense. I was real upset but the reality of us really divorcing did not hit me till I was gone from the home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

I'll never put those rings on again - I think I'll take them to a pawn shop and use the proceeds to buy chocolate and vodka.


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## CantSitStill

I understand it's supposed to be a new relationship once you reconcile but I will wear mine till the day I die. , Yes, the same ring. I am not throwing out a lot of good memories and good times we had. I would love to throw out the bad memories, but I guess I have to live with my bad decision. Unfortunately,it hurts Calvin way more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I am dedicated to Calvin and always will be.I mean, I won't go and throw away our pictures because I almost left him for another man. Yes what I did was horrible but I have Calvin and will cherish him and will always be grateful
for this chance. _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

CantSitStill said:


> I understand it's supposed to be a new relationship once you reconcile but I will wear mine till the day I die. , Yes, the same ring. I am not throwing out a lot of good memories and good times we had. I would love to throw out the bad memories, but I guess I have to live with my bad decision. Unfortunately,it hurts Calvin way more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am in the same place with you, CSS. I never took my ring off, even during all the heinous actions of my affair. Now, it is incredibly precious to me. I couldn't bear to take it off, it represents everything that I have jeopardized, and my realization of the staggering importance of it all over the other aspects of my life.

Matt can't ever fathom wearing his again. He hates all symbolic representations of our relationship now because of my betrayal.


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## calvin

Good post Dig,I'm glad you're moving,sounds like it would really help you and Regret,I want to move also,not far,I can't with my parents but just something different.It would mean a new start to me.
God the rings...I can't remember quite what I wrote to CSS but I put my ring in an envelope with a note that said something like,
I love you,I want to be with you but for my own sanity I must start getting over you.If you want to be my wife again let me know.
I'd like to have my ring and marriage back.
Needless to say she did'nt respond,
She just kept my ring in her purse,which ain't bad,she could have pawned it or thrown it away.
Come to think of it my ri,ng looks a little different,cheaper,not the same.



Its my ring and it means something to me,a big something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Yes, I'm with you Mrs. M. My ring did not come off and never will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

CSS my comment wasn't aimed at you, or even inspired by your comment above. I so admire your fortitude in hanging in there and I think you and Calvin are going to get there ....you're doing the hard stuff one day at a time, I truly respect that.

I just hate the thought of what those rings symbolised. it was the general trend of the convo that triggered a line of thought I've held for some time.


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## Robsia

So, do the WSs and the BSs feel differently about the rings, then?

I'm getting that the WSs want to wear the rings as a symbol of their renewed commitment to the M, whereas the BSs feel it's a reminder of the betrayal and is too painful.

Is that about right?


----------



## StarGazer101

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt can't ever fathom wearing his again. He hates all symbolic representations of our relationship now because of my betrayal.


I totally understand that. I think i am also a person that symbols have meaning for ..... it wasn't something I'd known about myself until finding out about the A.

I worked away from home a lot - our garden turned into a wasteland - I couldn't understand why. When I agreed to R one of my requirements was that he put the work into the garden again. For me it was a huge symbol of what had happened to our marriage.


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I am dedicated to Calvin and always will be.I mean, I won't go and throw away our pictures because I almost left him for another man. Yes what I did was horrible but I have Calvin and will cherish him and will always be grateful
> for this chance. _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would not call him a man.
A large pizza can at least feed a family of four,he couldn't do anything but steal and lie his whole life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

Robsia said:


> So, do the WSs and the BSs feel differently about the rings, then?
> 
> I'm getting that the WSs want to wear the rings as a symbol of their renewed commitment to the M, whereas the BSs feel it's a reminder of the betrayal and is too painful.
> 
> Is that about right?


Lister always refused to wear a wedding ring .... he does now. I don't but there is still an indentation on my finger from where they were for over 20 years.


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## calvin

Robsia said:


> So, do the WSs and the BSs feel differently about the rings, then?
> 
> I'm getting that the WSs want to wear the rings as a symbol of their renewed commitment to the M, whereas the BSs feel it's a reminder of the betrayal and is too painful.
> 
> Is that about right?


For me its a symbol of what I went through and that love won in the end,if CSS and I couldn't R then I would have pawned it.
I put it back on when she came home and it will stay on my finger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Rookie, how is sweetie doing? I was just loving on my dog and I thought to myself. Man, I could never find another dog like her. Well then I thought about Sweetie. I hope she's feeling better. I'm sure she has moments where she cries. Tell her I'm thinking of her and wanna give her a hug. Give her a hug for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Stargazer, I understand it's different for everyone. I didn't take offense at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am in the same place with you, CSS. I never took my ring off, even during all the heinous actions of my affair. Now, it is incredibly precious to me. I couldn't bear to take it off, it represents everything that I have jeopardized, and my realization of the staggering importance of it all over the other aspects of my life.
> 
> Matt can't ever fathom wearing his again. He hates all symbolic representations of our relationship now because of my betrayal.


Happened to stop by, don't normally follow this thread. But maybe I should again, a lot of people I care about are here.

Mrs M, I took my ring off for many years after wife's affair. It was a symbol of a broken promise and I wanted to forget.

It took more than 20 years to be able to wear it again. But my healing was not complete until I did.

The fact is, for a long time I survived by viewing the old marriage as dead and seeing what we rebuilt as something new. But underneath it all is a continuity back to the moment I first saw her and the moment I first met her. Trouble is her affair was part of the continuity, and seeing it means seeing the affair.

So I get where Matt is coming from. Don't ask that he wear the ring, but encourage him to keep in in case he wants to wear it again. You could keep it for him, but the problem is he will want to try putting it back on in private. It took several attempts for me to do it, and I would not have asked Mrs Wazza for the ring had it been in her custody.

Hope this makes sense. It was a REALLY big deal to me, so maybe I am reading the same into Matt.

And if he puts it back on in future, remember what it means.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> Happened to stop by, don't normally follow this thread. But maybe I should again, a lot of people I care about are here.
> 
> Mrs M, I took my ring off for many years after wife's affair. It was a symbol of a broken promise and I wanted to forget.
> 
> It took more than 20 years to be able to wear it again. But my healing was not complete until I did.
> 
> The fact is, for a long time I survived by viewing the old marriage as dead and seeing what we rebuilt as something new. But underneath it all is a continuity back to the moment I first saw her and the moment I first met her. Trouble is her affair was part of the continuity, and seeing it means seeing the affair.
> 
> So I get where Matt is coming from. Don't ask that he wear the ring, but encourage him to keep in in case he wants to wear it again. You could keep it for him, but the problem is he will want to try putting it back on in private. It took several attempts for me to do it, and I would not have asked Mrs Wazza for the ring had it been in her custody.
> 
> Hope this makes sense. It was a REALLY big deal to me, so maybe I am reading the same into Matt.
> 
> And if he puts it back on in future, remember what it means.



Wazza, thank you so much for the thoughts. I do currently have Matt's ring. He gave it back to me in November. I will keep it safe and as we evolve in the future, I will return it to him when he's ready, or simply make sure he knows where I'm keeping it. That way, he can make his decision regarding the ring without pressure or input from me.

I will never forget what it means, even if I just end up holding it close my whole life without him wearing it.

It's nice to hear from you - I've missed your input!


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Rookie, how is sweetie doing? I was just loving on my dog and I thought to myself. Man, I could never find another dog like her. Well then I thought about Sweetie. I hope she's feeling better. I'm sure she has moments where she cries. Tell her I'm thinking of her and wanna give her a hug. Give her a hug for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think that came out right CSS but I know what you mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Come on...everyone gives their doggy hugs. Pervert...lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

Hi everyone -

I was away, and have been super busy since I got back.

EI, hope things are going OK with all you have on your plate. Take care.

So glad to hear about the way things turned around, Robsia. 

So sorry to hear about Sweetie's cat. I have been so attached to mine; they are my furbabies. Our pets are part of the family.

Sorry about the D news, OT. Hope you're doing OK.

Mrs M, I hope that the lack of loving feelings in your BS is just temporary. I have some waves of "dead inside" moments that I could see one might mistake for lack of love. I'm just not inclined to interpret it that way. I understand how grief works (my background involves some work in that area), and have learned that we BS's have trauma on top of grief, which is a boatload of negativity to deal with. The waves come and can overwhelm, but if we hold on, we often find that that negativity subsides.


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Come on...everyone gives their doggy hugs. Pervert...lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Should I tell them the story my Brother told me about his girlfriend in Ky???
No,I better not.
Its something though,wow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Noo she was a bit tipsy to be telling us that and umm no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

jupiter13 - I'm almost 3 months since D-Day. My head is still swimming as I continue to obsess about my WS's A. On a scale of 0 to 10, my level of trust for my husband is now at about 6 (up from 0 on D-Day). I think it has been at 6 for awhile now, and I expect it won't jump up much any time soon. That's just how it is. I'm counting on time to help with healing.

I need a LOT of reassurance. If he goes awhile without checking in, my mind is off and running. Not so much that I think he's back with the OW or finding another one, but that he's not remembering about my ongoing worries, not really committed to the diligence that R takes, not fully understanding what his cheating has done to my heart and mind.

He's also been spending a lot of money on himself, which had been a problem before the A, and it seems to be his dysfunctional coping mechanism re the stress of having to answer my questions - and I think, to some extent, coping with shame. His excessive spending is one way to "train" me to ask questions less frequently (I'm sure it's not a conscious thing on his part, but it's effective nonetheless). His intermittent irritability when I ask is another way.

He's got anxiety and panic issues himself - he'd been having anxiety then finally a panic attack drove him to IC. That was a few weeks before the EA started (PA started a few months later). There's some mild depression mixed in too - he said that was more prominent during the A, and he "wasn't thinking straight."

Anyway, I too am not sharing a lot of what's going on in my head with my WS. I post here, do a little pm'ing with some folks, and write some stuff down to get stuff "out." As a result, I don't feel very close - it's hard to have emotional intimacy when you hold back so much. I keep hoping he'll start to "step up" and show me he's more ready - but each time he blows up when I try to discuss touchy issues, I back off and wait longer to bring it up again. 

I went away for a few days, and he started to miss me, so that was SORT of a good thing. But I had my doubts about that too - did he just want someone to take care of him? The day I left, he didn't call at all while I was on the road (a couple texts, but duh, I can't text when I'm driving!). He had a headache the day I was driving back, and then he called every half hour and said he missed me, so I wondered if he just "missed me" because he was feeling bad and wanted someone to fill the ice bag for his head and bring him food and drink so he wouldn't have to get up from his chair. (There's the trust issue!)

He DID do a little reading while I was gone (Not Just Friends) and said that he realized I needed to feel safe when I ask questions about the A. True, but I still don't feel safe and haven't asked any since I've been back - still not convinced he'll be able to stay calm. Why should I think he's changed just because he said he gets that I need to feel safe? Just because he says something doesn't mean I buy it! Not anymore. Not when he's at 6 on the Trust-O-Meter.

Hope this rambling post helps you feel less alone. My hope is that with time and IC, he'll keep inching along and be better able to empathize and truly "get" what I need to heal. In the meantime, my brain keeps going back to thoughts about his A and all the lying and deceiving, and it's really, really hard. I try to remember all the really happy years we had, and all the good he's done for my family and many, many other people. I need to hang on to the hope that his better self is still in there.


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> So, do the WSs and the BSs feel differently about the rings, then?
> 
> I'm getting that the WSs want to wear the rings as a symbol of their renewed commitment to the M, whereas the BSs feel it's a reminder of the betrayal and is too painful.
> 
> Is that about right?


My GF and I seem to feel that way (we had/have commitment rings). When I started talking reconciliation, I was wearing my ring on a necklace. She basically told me to stop wearing it because it bothered her.


----------



## MrMathias

I don't post very often, but I want to get some feedback on something. As you may know, MrsMathias is my disloyal spouse, and has been a largely 'ideal' partner ever since her young, valiant and honorable lover and former student moved to another town in November and she was left with me. 

I very rarely check her emails, Facebook, etc. Even though she stabbed me in the back multiple times, FalseR etc. I still don't 'feel right' sifting through her stuff. I only did tonight because I was cooking, the recipe book is on the iPad and I saw her Facebook getting a queue of messages, and I had a few minutes to kill. 

MrsM still talks with one of her former students, who happens to be the brother of one of the toxic students that tacitly approved of her affair. He's a core member of the school's theatre clan, the group my DS shifted all her loyalty and energy to. I'll call him Toxic Student's Brother, 'TSB' for short. I defriended this guy a while back, since he's friends with two people I hate more than anything on earth. Back then he wrote:


TSB said:


> "If he can't distinguish me from four other people I'm over it. I don't need to be associated with him. Maybe when he's done licking his wounds he will come around."


So, in short, I don't like this guy partly because of who he's friends with, partly because he's related to a personal Judas of mine, and partly because MrsM is sharing personal info. I had him in classes a couple years ago and at the time I liked him quite a bit. This is what I read, from a couple days ago, and there's a lot like it, even more personal relationship details, over the last few months:



> *TSB*: what's up with you (MrsM)?
> 
> *MrsM*: Life.
> 
> *TSB*:meh. youre up early. or late. you good?
> *TSB*: I got your back homeskillet.
> 
> *MrsM*: Late for the 3rd in a row. It's not good, but I earned it. I made this situation. I had so many opportunities to not be a completely despicable morally bankrupt person, and instead I wasn't. And have ultimately destroyed everything I should have guarded and treasured so deeply.
> 
> *TSB*:youre too hard on yourself. You are too good, and too important to rise above this.
> 
> *MrsM*: **** no I'm not. You have no concept of what it is to completely and utterly destroy the person that you love.* to look in the eyes of your little boy and know you are the reason he won't have a full relationship with either parent. to be stupid and shallow enough to only know after the fact was you had and callously squandered. There's a special place in hell for people like me, or at least there should be.
> 
> *TSB*: youre right, I don't. But I know what its like to have someone like you believe in me. All the time.
> *TSB*: and not just me.
> 
> *MrsM*: I'll survive it. But I don't know that there can be something more devastating than ultimately knowing you've lost your love because of SOMETHING YOU DID. Matt will go on, knowing that he was terribly, terribly wronged, but that he tried to be a good husband and I had no respect or consideration for him.
> 
> *TSB*: Like a lot of ****ing people that march to a different drum.
> *TSB*: I'm too different than him to understand how he is coping.
> 
> *MrsM*: I'm sorry. I need to NOT dump this on you. I appreciate your kindness, TSB.
> 
> *TSB*: I don't even think he likes me. Or takes me seriously.
> *TSB*: I'm sorry for asking, I guess...
> 
> *MrsM*: It's ok. I appreciate that you care. I just need to keep better boundaries with people. That how this whole disaster started. i'm just running on empty, and do then it spills out. I'll be better about stopping myself.
> 
> (Conversation wanders to other things)
> 
> * Footnote: I'm not completely and utterly destroyed just yet. I think maybe MrsM is indeed being hard on herself, and she certainly has a flair for dramatics and hyperbole.


I want to know what you think about MrsM talking with this guy. Am I unreasonable being bothered by this? It's true, I don't like him primarily because of his kin, and no, I don't take him particularly seriously. As I said I had him in a couple of my classes, and the most memorable thing I recall him saying is that 'some people like cucumbers, some people like pickles' and that 'pickles are actually misnamed, they're pickled cucumbers'. But, back then he was likable if not scintillating. 



> "I got your back home skillet."


For Pete's sake, why does MrsM need to sink down to youths for emotional support? Is she afraid that people her own age are too good for her? 

I need to know if I'm being irrational here.


----------



## BK23

MrMathias said:


> I don't post very often, but I want to get some feedback on something. As you may know, MrsMathias is my disloyal spouse, and has been a largely 'ideal' partner ever since her young, valiant and honorable lover and former student moved to another town in November and she was left with me.
> 
> I very rarely check her emails, Facebook, etc. Even though she stabbed me in the back multiple times, FalseR etc. I still don't 'feel right' sifting through her stuff. I only did tonight because I was cooking, the recipe book is on the iPad and I saw her Facebook getting a queue of messages, and I had a few minutes to kill.
> 
> MrsM still talks with one of her former students, who happens to be the brother of one of the toxic students that tacitly approved of her affair. He's a core member of the school's theatre clan, the group my DS shifted all her loyalty and energy to. I'll call him Toxic Student's Brother, 'TSB' for short. I defriended this guy a while back, since he's friends with two people I hate more than anything on earth. Back then he wrote:
> 
> So, in short, I don't like this guy partly because of who he's friends with, partly because he's related to a personal Judas of mine, and partly because MrsM is sharing personal info. I had him in classes a couple years ago and at the time I liked him quite a bit. This is what I read, from a couple days ago, and there's a lot like it, even more personal relationship details, over the last few months:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to know what you think about MrsM talking with this guy. Am I unreasonable being bothered by this? It's true, I don't like him primarily because of his kin, and no, I don't take him particularly seriously. As I said I had him in a couple of my classes, and the most memorable thing I recall him saying is that 'some people like cucumbers, some people like pickles' and that 'pickles are actually misnamed, they're pickled cucumbers'. But, back then he was likable if not scintillating.
> 
> 
> 
> For Pete's sake, why does MrsM need to sink down to youths for emotional support? Is she afraid that people her own age are too good for her?
> 
> I need to know if I'm being irrational here.


I'm kind of new here, so maybe take my opinion with a grain of salt.... but really, how can she think this is at all ok after what she did? If it were a clean slate, whatever. But there need to be better boundaries. Why is she having personal conversations with students at all? I am rooting for you two, but in your position I would walk.


----------



## Wazza

Matt, she needs to talk to someone, she needs support. But right now I think she would be much wiser to find a female confidant.


----------



## BK23

Wazza said:


> Matt, she needs to talk to someone, she needs support. But right now I think she would be much wiser to find a female confidant.


She also needs a confidant that doesn't demean you or take veiled swipes.


----------



## MrMathias

Wazza said:


> Matt, she needs to talk to someone, she needs support.


I agree 100%. More than 100%. 



Wazza said:


> But right now I think she would be much wiser to find a female confidant.


I have to agree with this too. 

I just wonder if she needs more external validation and support than I think is acceptable... at least for someone I want to have a relationship with. Too extroverted for my comfort


----------



## Wazza

Ok, look, I will type it.

"I got your back home skillet". I am here for you.

"youre too hard on yourself. You are too good, and too important to rise above this. .......youre right, I don't. But I know what its like to have someone like you believe in me. All the time." You are amazing.

"Like a lot of ****ing people that march to a different drum. I'm too different than him to understand how he is coping." Your husband is a weirdo who, unlike you, I don't think much of.

It could be read as being straight out of Pickup 101.


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm gonna take a step outside of my comfort zone for a post.

I'm a little more than disappointed that MrsM has a male confidant, and as BK said - one who's taking veiled swipes at you, Matt.

Here is my unveiled swipe - MrsM...Regret would never, EVER think to have a male "friend" who she confides her sh-t in about our marriage or her affair. She knew the moment sh-t went down that male friends were done. Finished. Period. No chatting, no emailing, no texting. Nada. Nothin'...zilch.

Why?

Cuz she knew she f-cked up WITH another guy.

I mean, holy crap. Really? You have an affair and then one of the people you confide in is...a guy?!! Ummm...Bzzzzzzzttt! Bus bell...getting off at the next stop. Don't wanna go down this route ever again.

How? How in THE world can you not see how utterly crazy that is? Sorry, but there ain't nothing you're gonna be able to say to me, at least, that will justify talking about your sh-t with another dude. Nothing.

Matt. Brother. I'll say it right here and right now. Put the hammer down. She either drops this dude and any other that isn't a FRIEND OF THE MARRIAGE or walk.

You guys know me. I'm all about the lovey dovey we CAN work this out reconciliation.

Until it's just blatantly disrespectful. And I think you, MrsM have no idea...no CLUE as to what your role in this "reconciliation" is.

I think you need to read a bunch more from WS's like EI and Regret (even though she no longer posts) if you want to even begin to think you're going down the reconciliation road.

Sorry for being an ass.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



MrMathias said:


> I don't post very often, but I want to get some feedback on something. As you may know, MrsMathias is my disloyal spouse, and has been a largely 'ideal' partner ever since her young, valiant and honorable lover and former student moved to another town in November and she was left with me.
> 
> I very rarely check her emails, Facebook, etc. Even though she stabbed me in the back multiple times, FalseR etc. I still don't 'feel right' sifting through her stuff. I only did tonight because I was cooking, the recipe book is on the iPad and I saw her Facebook getting a queue of messages, and I had a few minutes to kill.
> 
> MrsM still talks with one of her former students, who happens to be the brother of one of the toxic students that tacitly approved of her affair. He's a core member of the school's theatre clan, the group my DS shifted all her loyalty and energy to. I'll call him Toxic Student's Brother, 'TSB' for short. I defriended this guy a while back, since he's friends with two people I hate more than anything on earth. Back then he wrote:
> 
> So, in short, I don't like this guy partly because of who he's friends with, partly because he's related to a personal Judas of mine, and partly because MrsM is sharing personal info. I had him in classes a couple years ago and at the time I liked him quite a bit. This is what I read, from a couple days ago, and there's a lot like it, even more personal relationship details, over the last few months:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to know what you think about MrsM talking with this guy. Am I unreasonable being bothered by this? It's true, I don't like him primarily because of his kin, and no, I don't take him particularly seriously. As I said I had him in a couple of my classes, and the most memorable thing I recall him saying is that 'some people like cucumbers, some people like pickles' and that 'pickles are actually misnamed, they're pickled cucumbers'. But, back then he was likable if not scintillating.
> 
> 
> 
> For Pete's sake, why does MrsM need to sink down to youths for emotional support? Is she afraid that people her own age are too good for her?
> 
> I need to know if I'm being irrational here.


Ok, here's my opinion (and frankly I can't believe I'm saying this.) I rather like how Mrs M handled this. She was contacted by this person. I am assuming that you did not list him as someone she should be NC with. She responded to him truthfully. She demonstrated how devastated she was and how hurt you are. I also get the feeling that maybe she hoped he would take her words to heart and not make the same mistakes she did. And remember, she had no expectations that you'd ever see that exchange so I am positive what she wrote is genuine. If you feel she shouldn't talk to this person just tell her so. But she does need to be able to talk to someone other than her therapist and you did say that last year her entire life revolved around these students even when you take out her affair. So in reality they are the only people other than you and her therapist that she is familiar with right now. And I doubt she has had much time to make any new friends since it seems most of her time is spent working on trying to atone for the damage she caused. To me that exchange shows that she "gets it." I don't think she's where she should eventually be yet but that demonstrates to me that she's on the right path.


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> I'm gonna take a step outside of my comfort zone for a post.
> 
> I'm a little more than disappointed that MrsM has a male confidant, and as BK said - one who's taking veiled swipes at you, Matt.
> 
> Here is my unveiled swipe - MrsM...Regret would never, EVER think to have a male "friend" who she confides her sh-t in about our marriage or her affair. She knew the moment sh-t went down that male friends were done. Finished. Period. No chatting, no emailing, no texting. Nada. Nothin'...zilch.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Cuz she knew she f-cked up WITH another guy.
> 
> I mean, holy crap. Really? You have an affair and then one of the people you confide in is...a guy?!! Ummm...Bzzzzzzzttt! Bus bell...getting off at the next stop. Don't wanna go down this route ever again.
> 
> How? How in THE world can you not see how utterly crazy that is? Sorry, but there ain't nothing you're gonna be able to say to me, at least, that will justify talking about your sh-t with another dude. Nothing.
> 
> Matt. Brother. I'll say it right here and right now. Put the hammer down. She either drops this dude and any other that isn't a FRIEND OF THE MARRIAGE or walk.
> 
> You guys know me. I'm all about the lovey dovey we CAN work this out reconciliation.
> 
> Until it's just blatantly disrespectful. And I think you, MrsM have no idea...no CLUE as to what your role in this "reconciliation" is.
> 
> I think you need to read a bunch more from WS's like EI and Regret (even though she no longer posts) if you want to even begin to think you're going down the reconciliation road.
> 
> Sorry for being an ass.


Well said Dig !

Mrs M - after reading this I would say that Matt just went through DD #3.


----------



## MrMathias

In her defense, she did write "It's ok. I appreciate that you care. I just need to keep better boundaries with people. That how this whole disaster started. i'm just running on empty, and do then it spills out. I'll be better about stopping myself."

But that's a lot like her 'Can you believe Matt thinks you and I might have an affair? *Ha ha, nod nod, wink wink*' conversation she had with her OM a few weeks before he kissed her. And of course she 'never thought of him that way'... same thing she says about this guy. 

And Dig, we're going to address the issue tonight. I just wanted to get a sounding board... I still to this day don't want to be a controlling *******. I need to read NMMNG which is sitting on a pile of other books I need to read.

ETA: She also said a little bit ago that she'd 'happily cut contact' if I wanted her to. I really don't want her to lose all her friends from the last five years. I also don't want to throw her under the bus in this thread, where I think she feels somewhat safe. 

I'm not freaking out emotionally about this either, just a grain of sand


----------



## CantSitStill

Mrs. M. You need to only talk to females. Absolutely no men at all.. These men may claim to be your friend but they are not...they are. Out for one thing...Do not talk o to other males about your issues. It needs to be with females. I even had a guy who was probably innocent but pming me too much here on TAM. I had a problem with him talkinf to me too often and showed Calvin the pms and talked about my concern. Calvin took care of the situation. Please take my advice on this. Men are creeps! Sorry guys but you know what I mean, please agree with me here guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

bfree said:


> Ok, here's my opinion (and frankly I can't believe I'm saying this.) I rather like how Mrs M handled this. She was contacted by this person. I am assuming that you did not list him as someone she should be NC with. She responded to him truthfully. She demonstrated how devastated she was and how hurt you are. I also get the feeling that maybe she hoped he would take her words to heart and not make the same mistakes she did. And remember, she had no expectations that you'd ever see that exchange so I am positive what she wrote is genuine. If you feel she shouldn't talk to this person just tell her so. But she does need to be able to talk to someone other than her therapist and you did say that last year her entire life revolved around these students even when you take out her affair. So in reality they are the only people other than you and her therapist that she is familiar with right now. And I doubt she has had much time to make any new friends since it seems most of her time is spent working on trying to atone for the damage she caused. To me that exchange shows that she "gets it." I don't think she's where she should eventually be yet but that demonstrates to me that she's on the right path.


BFREE - go back and read Matt's post again. This is just not a one time deal.

Even if it was once - after everything Matt has gone through. - once is to much IMO .


----------



## jh52

CantSitStill said:


> Mrs. M. You need to only talk to females. Absolutely no men at all.. These men may claim to be your friend but they are not...they are. Out for one thing...Do not talk o to other males about your issues. It needs to be with females. I even had a guy who was probably innocent but pming me too much here on TAM. I had a problem with him talkinf to me too often and showed Calvin the pms and talked about my concern. Calvin took care of the situation. Please take my advice on this. Men are creeps! Sorry guys but you know what I mean, please agree with me here guys.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS - not all of us guys are creeps - but this guy helped his buddy with the affair - and now continues to rip Matt. 

My thinking is that this guy was thinking - his buddy got lucky - maybe I can as well.

This guy is an a$$whole in every sense of the word.


----------



## calvin

Mr.M,
Yes she does need to talk to someone but NOT them.I never offered any advice just encouragement to Mrs.M.
One thing I think I can say with confidence is that this woman is worth taking a chance on.The woman you fell in love with and married is there,she got drunk on the false attention and cheap compliments,my wife did also.
You both are also going to have a child,God this is difficult.
I think its possible to make it work but its going to take a lot on her part.
Sorry for your pain Mr.M,I could'nt imagine,mine was bad enough.
No matter what the call is yours and I would respect you if you give up.
I'd respect you even more if you try your best.
Wives should not confide in other men about marriage issues,that is reserved for the husband and wife.
Be thinking about you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Wazza said:


> Matt, she needs to talk to someone, she needs support. But right now I think she would be much wiser to find a female confidant.


Mrs M sounds like she was in a dark place during this conversation. I agree that she seems to have been decompressing a bit, and I saw that she had counters when TSB tried to dismiss her lamentation of her wrongs or compliment/come onto her. As a matter of fact, it almost reads like two separate conversations spliced together, or like TSB was attempting to interrupt Mrs M talking to herself. 

But I also agree that it's beyond unwise of her to talk to someone like TSB and that she'd be much better off cutting him out of her life (and she should both to be safe and because it makes Mr M uncomfortable)... I think she is definitely committed to Mr M and to R, but like she says, boundary problems.


----------



## CantSitStill

I'm sorry but if even one of you men pmed me and said things like "oh don't be so hard on yourself" to me..I would be leary. I trust no men other than my husband and family. As for talking to students? I thought there was a law or something or other about that. My sister is a teacher and she is not allowed to have students on her facebook.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Well said Dig.
Jh,nope not all men are creeps but it seems half are and that's a lot.
There are good actors out there who really should win an award for how they fake being something they are not.
Seems like more than few are preditors and don't care who gets hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> Well said Dig.
> Jh,nope not all men are creeps but it seems half are and that's a lot.
> There are good actors out there who really should win an award for how they fake being something they are not.
> Seems like more than few are preditors and don't care who gets hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin you are 100%correct about some men just being predators - especially in regards to married women. They have nothing to lose - and if one women shoots him down - he tries with another. Just read some of the threads here.


----------



## CantSitStill

Sorry, I don't mean to be prejudice against men but after what I went thru. I have learned not to be vulnerable and think they wanna just be friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Well said Dig.
Jh,nope not all men are creeps but it seems half are and that's a lot.
There are good actors out there who really should win an award for how they fake being something they are not.
Seems like more than few are preditors and don't care who gets hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

I definitely see some boundary issues, both because it's a male and because it's a student, even a former one. Even if he knows about what happened, she shouldn't be discussing it with him. Vague answers like "Things are OK, thanks for asking" should be as far as it goes. Has Mrs M read Not Just Friends?

She may not be aware that this is not OK, though.

I'll admit I wasn't as clear about this until I read the book - wasn't as aware how dangerous it was. Of course, I wasn't the one who had the affair, either, and have better boundaries (when it came to my vows, I believed when I said them that it meant til death). I could go to lunch with a male colleague and think nothing of it - now, I would invite another female along. Not that I don't trust myself, but I see the world differently now. It wouldn't look right, and I don't ever want anyone to get any wrong impressions.


----------



## Wazza

soulpotato said:


> Mrs M sounds like she was in a dark place during this conversation. I agree that she seems to have been decompressing a bit, and I saw that she had counters when TSB tried to dismiss her lamentation of her wrongs or compliment/come onto her. As a matter of fact, it almost reads like two separate conversations spliced together, or like TSB was attempting to interrupt Mrs M talking to herself.
> 
> But I also agree that it's beyond unwise of her to talk to someone like TSB and that she'd be much better off cutting him out of her life (and she should both to be safe and because it makes Mr M uncomfortable)... I think she is definitely committed to Mr M and to R, but like she says, boundary problems.


I feel for the darkness and she needs support, but being in a dark place is also weakness. Imagine such a conversation where they are together and he then perhaps touches her in a caring way....you can see where it may lead.

The other consideration is the "different drum" remark. Part of how the first affair happened was that she was tight with the theatre crowd and Matt was an outsider...marching to a different drum.

And yes MrsM's responses were all appropriate, but she knows Matt has access...of course her words will be carefully chosen. I would not be reassured by that.


----------



## larry.gray

CantSitStill said:


> I'm sorry but if even one of you men pmed me and said things like "oh don't be so hard on yourself" to me..I would be leary. I trust no men other than my husband and family.


That's a good rule. I will not PM a WW, ever. It doesn't help. It gets said in the open or not at all.



CantSitStill said:


> As for talking to students? I thought there was a law or something or other about that. My sister is a teacher and she is not allowed to have students on her facebook.


College vs. primary & secondary education. I'm on a school board, and we just adopted new policies on this. There is no law about FB. Now we don't permit it among our staff.


----------



## warlock07

MrMathias said:


> I don't post very often, but I want to get some feedback on something. As you may know, MrsMathias is my disloyal spouse, and has been a largely 'ideal' partner ever since her young, valiant and honorable lover and former student moved to another town in November and she was left with me.
> 
> I very rarely check her emails, Facebook, etc. Even though she stabbed me in the back multiple times, FalseR etc. I still don't 'feel right' sifting through her stuff. I only did tonight because I was cooking, the recipe book is on the iPad and I saw her Facebook getting a queue of messages, and I had a few minutes to kill.
> 
> MrsM still talks with one of her former students, who happens to be the brother of one of the toxic students that tacitly approved of her affair. He's a core member of the school's theatre clan, the group my DS shifted all her loyalty and energy to. I'll call him Toxic Student's Brother, 'TSB' for short. I defriended this guy a while back, since he's friends with two people I hate more than anything on earth. Back then he wrote:
> 
> So, in short, I don't like this guy partly because of who he's friends with, partly because he's related to a personal Judas of mine, and partly because MrsM is sharing personal info. I had him in classes a couple years ago and at the time I liked him quite a bit. This is what I read, from a couple days ago, and there's a lot like it, even more personal relationship details, over the last few months:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to know what you think about MrsM talking with this guy. Am I unreasonable being bothered by this? It's true, I don't like him primarily because of his kin, and no, I don't take him particularly seriously. As I said I had him in a couple of my classes, and the most memorable thing I recall him saying is that 'some people like cucumbers, some people like pickles' and that 'pickles are actually misnamed, they're pickled cucumbers'. But, back then he was likable if not scintillating.
> 
> 
> 
> For Pete's sake, why does MrsM need to sink down to youths for emotional support? Is she afraid that people her own age are too good for her?
> 
> I need to know if I'm being irrational here.



Exactly, can't she finds friends her age ? 

Why is she still including all these students in her personal life once again ? Wasn't that the beginning of all this mess ? These kids are at a different place with regards to their maturity levels and emotions (Or is that why MrsM confides in them ? Their maturity levels match)

It is common sense that this guy will be feeding personal details of MrM and MrsM life and R to the rest of the crowd that enabled and accommodated the affair and possibly the OM. Why does she still feel the need to do that ? Or did she not think through ?



> "If he can't distinguish me from four other people I'm over it. I don't need to be associated with him. Maybe when he's done licking his wounds he will come around."


If that is what he exactly said about Matt, why would she keep talking to the him ? Why did she not find it offensive when it was so condescending to Matt ? Why is she opening up her marriage details to people who have no regard or respect for Matt ?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



jh52 said:


> BFREE - go back and read Matt's post again. This is just not a one time deal.
> 
> Even if it was once - after everything Matt has gone through. - once is to much IMO .


I should have read Matts post more closely. Thank you for pointing it out. I thought this was a one off communication. If she is continually talking to this man then she needs to stop. When I said she was on the right path I was talking about her response to him but I also said she's not quite there yet and by that I meant boundaries with talking to men and even more specifically former students. But I think it was pretty much understood that she had poor boundaries with her students. It's one reason I kept hammering home a change of occupation was in order. But I still think her heart was in the right place and no ill will was intended at all. Sometimes we forget that the WS is in pain as well. I really think Mrs M is hurting and maybe the disgust she feels with herself from what she did just spills over at times. I also feel she is feeling lost at what to do to really repair the damage she had caused. I don't think Matt is giving her much feedback or direction. Reconciliation doesn't come with an instruction manual and this knowledge is not inborn. I still believe she gets it insofar as get and Matts relationship is concerned. The context of the conversation prove that. The boundaries still need a little work but she's still on the right path.


----------



## Doc Who

Matt,

Look, I get what the crowd is saying. She needs support. She has to talk to people. She told him she needs boundaries. To all that - YES.

To what was exchanged - Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??? THE only appropriate response to this little fisherman is "I WILL NOT DISCUSS MY PERSONAL LIFE WITH YOU." This fisherman is another young male student who wants in her pants. That she cannot see that is (a) disturbing and (b) disappointing.

I get that she is miserable and full of self-loathing. But this exchange, LEST ANYONE ON TAM FORGETS is EXACTLY how she got into bed with POSOM in the first place. To use the briefest of synopses, it went like "<MrsM to posOM> Oh Matt thinks we are involved. - <posOM> What? No Way. <MrsM> Yes - way. <posOM> Then suck my ****... <MrsM> Ok." (edited for brevity)

Having that exchange is beyond stupid - it is still wayward in thinking. She loved getting support from a young male that wants her. If, if if if if if, she is really serious about R, THAT HAS TO STOP.

I know this thread is all about supporting the wayward in R. But if EI or Regret or CSS or any of the other WWs would be exchanging IMs with a 22 year old male, where the boy was hitting on them in every line, would any of the BHs on here say "Good for her. She is seeking support."???

Matt, you have every right to be troubled. This is just the same old story for you, part three. Good news - she recognizes she is doing something wrong sharing with him. Bad news, just like after Dday1, she seems somewhat powerless to stop it.


----------



## calvin

I'm sorry I thought she talked to him once,I did not know she has been talking to him more.
I still pray you guys can work this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

larry.gray said:


> That's a good rule. I will not PM a WW, ever. It doesn't help. It gets said in the open or not at all.


I got PM'd by a WW here soon after I started. She wanted to thank me for starting my thread. It was innocent, I believe, however I was not comfortable with any exchange with ANY member of the opposite sex on a forum. I showed Regret, thanked the person for the PM and explained my viewpoints on PM's.

It's really that simple.

And honestly, I believe that we ALL know deep within that difference between right and wrong. It might get clouded in that grey matter...BUT ~ c'mon...we ALL know when we're doing something wrong.

That is my biggest problem with this issue with MrsM. Yeah, it's good to have our books to read and our counselors to talk to...

But inside us there is a switch. It's called guilt. You know what it feels like and it is closely related to remorse. If you say you have remorse, then you would obviously be in touch with guilt.

Hence...sh-t like this should NOT happen.


----------



## happyman64

MrMathias said:


> In her defense, she did write "It's ok. I appreciate that you care. I just need to keep better boundaries with people. That how this whole disaster started. i'm just running on empty, and do then it spills out. I'll be better about stopping myself."
> 
> But that's a lot like her 'Can you believe Matt thinks you and I might have an affair? *Ha ha, nod nod, wink wink*' conversation she had with her OM a few weeks before he kissed her. And of course she 'never thought of him that way'... same thing she says about this guy.
> 
> And Dig, we're going to address the issue tonight. I just wanted to get a sounding board... I still to this day don't want to be a controlling *******. I need to read NMMNG which is sitting on a pile of other books I need to read.
> 
> ETA: She also said a little bit ago that she'd 'happily cut contact' if I wanted her to. I really don't want her to lose all her friends from the last five years. I also don't want to throw her under the bus in this thread, where I think she feels somewhat safe.
> 
> I'm not freaking out emotionally about this either, just a grain of sand


But Matt you ate right.

Who needs friends like that.

That kid cannot comprehend what it is like to be married, have a family or fix issues like infidelity.

He is not even mature enough to del with your situation which is clearly evident from his responses.....


----------



## CantSitStill

I am not trying to be mean. I'm sorry if I sound harsh Mrs M. I'm only telling you this to help and protect you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

You're right Dig.
We all know the difference between what's right and what's wrong.
If you're hiding things and and sneaking around you know its wrong.
Its also selfish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

A good point on selfishness, Calvin.

Ya know, sometimes we just wanna be a little selfish. That's okay, I feel, as long as it's appropriately acted out.

Talking to a hot chick at a bar as a married man just cuz it makes me feel good about myself ain't good.

Going to the Dog Shack for 3 with no onions...not that great, but my selfishness really isn't hurting anyone else.


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## B1

I believe Mrs.M is in a dark place desperately seeking validation, and is vulnerable, obviously very dangerous.
I think it's apparent we all believe boundaries were crossed here, that Mrs. M should NOT be talking to this kid about her affair, her marriage and she certainly shouldn't be listening to the kid talk bad about her husband.

Now in saying all that, Mrs. M does need someone to talk to, Mr. M can that person be you? if not she will remain vulnerable and in need of validation. This isn't just going to go away. Sure she can stop ALL contact with this kid and others...she will still be desperately in need of validation, support and will remain vulnerable. Yes, she brought this on with her affair but is there anything you brought on in the marriage pre-A or even post-A that helped create this vulnerable, needy Mrs.M? 

It's obvious how she feels about herself, is this the wife you want? I'm really not sure where you two are in R, or even if you are in R but Mrs.M needs help and support, to me this was a cry for help. She's drowning MR.M, it may very well be in her own hell but she's still your wife, and she's carrying your child.


----------



## bfree

I would be remiss if I didn't mention this regarding Matt and Mrs M.

Matt, you really need to read No More Mr Nice Guy asap. Since you and your wife started posting I can think of several times when you have displayed classic "nice guy" behavior. This is just the latest example. Let me explain something here. I am assuming that you didn't tell Mrs M specifically that she couldn't or even shouldn't communicate with former students. In fact you are sending a strong mixed message because you yourself are engaged in friendly relationships with former students outside of the class environment. Yet even though you have never once concretely stated your boundaries concerning this type of situation you somehow expect Mrs M to read your mind and hold to your expectations even though you have never made them clearly known. This is called a covert contract and is classic nice guy behavior. The reason you say that you have never said anything is because you don't want to appear controlling. Do me a favor. Walk into your bathroom, grab a bar of soap and wash your mouth out right now. This is utter bull. Stating your boundaries and expectations is NOT controlling. Its called marital communication. But saying you don't want to appear controlling is another "nice guy" red flag and is used as a conflict and responsibility avoidance tool. Now I'm not saying this because I think Mrs M is not at fault. On the contrary, her faults have been explored ad nauseum and she is obviously well aware of the things she needs to work on. I'm telling you this because regardless of whether you and Mrs M stay together or not, if you don't deal with these "nice guy" traits of yours you will never have a healthy happy long term relationship. Mrs M was wrong but you sure aren't helping yourself or the reconciliation by ignoring your own issues.


----------



## soulpotato

Wazza said:


> I feel for the darkness and she needs support, but being in a dark place is also weakness. Imagine such a conversation where they are together and he then perhaps touches her in a caring way....you can see where it may lead.
> 
> The other consideration is the "different drum" remark. Part of how the first affair happened was that she was tight with the theatre crowd and Matt was an outsider...marching to a different drum.
> 
> And yes MrsM's responses were all appropriate, but she knows Matt has access...of course her words will be carefully chosen. I would not be reassured by that.


You're right, and she should definitely avoid being close to TSB or others in that way. I suppose it could be considered weakness to be in a dark place, but it's also human. We all break down and run out of energy sooner or later - some of us sooner than others, some more drastically/catastrophically than others. Some of us also exist closer to that dark place than others do and are more vulnerable to it, so it requires more vigilance to stay out of it. I agree that Mrs M should totally avoid all situations and contacts that might cause a problem and that she should remain very vigilant, but this contact/conversation with TSB might not have pinged her radar. 

Mr M definitely needs to remain included in things and brought up to speed on conversations that happen with others. But I really don't think that Mrs M sits there choosing her words carefully in every medium all day long just in case Mr M checks.


----------



## margrace

calvin said:


> One thing I think I can say with confidence is that this woman is worth taking a chance on.The woman you fell in love with and married is there,she got drunk on the false attention and cheap compliments,my wife did also





soulpotato said:


> I think she is definitely committed to Mr M and to R, but like she says, boundary problems.





warlock07 said:


> Why does she still feel the need to do that ? Or did she not think through ?If that is what he exactly said about Matt, why would she keep talking to the him ? Why did she not find it offensive when it was so condescending to Matt ? Why is she opening up her marriage details to people who have no regard or respect for Matt ?





bfree said:


> Reconciliation doesn't come with an instruction manual and this knowledge is not inborn. I still believe she gets it insofar as get and Matts relationship is concerned. The context of the conversation prove that. The boundaries still need a little work but she's still on the right path.





Doc Who said:


> To what was exchanged - Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??? THE only appropriate response to this little fisherman is "I WILL NOT DISCUSS MY PERSONAL LIFE WITH YOU." This fisherman is another young male student who wants in her pants. That she cannot see that is (a) disturbing and (b) disappointing...
> 
> Having that exchange is beyond stupid - it is still wayward in thinking. She loved getting support from a young male that wants her. If, if if if if if, she is really serious about R, THAT HAS TO STOP.
> 
> Matt, you have every right to be troubled. This is just the same old story for you, part three. Good news - she recognizes she is doing something wrong sharing with him. Bad news, just like after Dday1, she seems somewhat powerless to stop it.


Matt and Mrs. M, you have gotten such great input about your situation... i am just chiming in with all of the others.

Mrs. M, i have been a believer in your sincere intentions for a long time now, and i still am! i also want to support you for eventually recognizing that this personal conversation was inappropriate and stopping it. i think everyone's right in saying that you are on the right path -- a path that doesn't come with a roadmap.

but: i also hope that you are asking yourself the questions that are posed to you above.... no, i hope that you are shaken by the fact that those questions STILL need to be asked.

i'm sorry, i can't remember if you are in individual counseling? that would be a good safe place to look deeply at these issues. for me, your conversation was not an appropriate one for any married person BUT it is particularly alarming for you -- someone who allowed her relationship boundaries to be lost, and someone who is trying to rebuild them now.

there is something in you that is preventing you from heading these situations off at the pass. you need to understand what that something is.

some of the possible somethings were mentioned by others... things like getting drunk on attention and compliments. everyone is a bit vulnerable to that drug  but some people are even _more_ vulnerable for reasons that are individual to them.

to you, matt: as someone else said, this would feel like a dday for me. i was devastated a few weeks ago when my fWH broke NC for what seemed to him at the time to be "a good reason." 

for me, it felt like just one more in a string of excuses and yes-buts and "this time was different because..." 

but we talked about it, and he understood, and he rallied, and he has worked hard with our MC to figure out what his own vulnerabilities are about. 

and he said to me recently, "i get it now... it's like, the way to stop drinking is just to completely STOP. DRINKING."

i hope this doesn't feel like a pile-on, Mrs.M -- i know none of us means it that way. in a way, you could see it as an invitation to a more meaningful stage of your R, a stage that might finally make a believer of Matt. you know how you have told us many times, i don't know what else to do to for Matt/for R? well, now you know. you have a glimpse of where your path needs to go.... and how you proceed now will show a lot about your commitment.

xxx mg


----------



## StarGazer101

I've always thought this thread was a safe haven for BS *and *WS to talk, get support/feedback and generally share feelings and perhaps learn from each other in taking the hard route to R without the bashing that goes on in other threads.

I think if I were MrsM right now I'd feel a little "bashed" just because of the _number_ of comments. As bfree has already said; dealing with this stuff doesn't come with an instruction manual and we all make mistakes, the advice and opinions expressed here will again help MrsM learn and progress I'm sure. I just wish MrM had chosen to seek feedback on his own thread instead of this one as I have the impression that this is a safe place for her....the approach seems a little PA to me.


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## SomedayDig

StarGazer101 said:


> I've always thought this thread was a safe haven for BS *and *WS to talk, get support/feedback and generally share feelings and perhaps learn from each other in taking the hard route to R without the bashing that goes on in other threads.
> 
> I think if I were MrsM right now I'd feel a little "bashed" just because of the _number_ of comments. As bfree has already said; dealing with this stuff doesn't come with an instruction manual and we all make mistakes, the advice and opinions expressed here will again help MrsM learn and progress I'm sure. I just wish MrM had chosen to seek feedback on his own thread instead of this one as I have the impression that this is a safe place for her....the approach seems a little PA to me.


It is a safe(r) haven than the rest of CWI - true. However, we do NOT condone inappropriate actions and we certainly don't placate. While, I agree that I was one of the first to bash MrsM and make the Reconciliation thread a little less "happy", I feel we have a responsibility to help those who are seeking TRUE reconciliation.

If you're here and faking it...we're gonna call you on it. Read the entire thread and you will find instances where different parties have been "called" out and it was addressed. 

We have a no rug sweep policy here. Reconciliation is BOTH partners working. Reconciliation is BOTH people taking an active role in the healing.

Reconciliation is holding each other accountable.

My apologies again for making things a bit uncomfortable. However, I would expect someone to do the same for me...which they did on 8/30/12 in this very thread.


----------



## StarGazer101

SomedayDig said:


> It is a safe(r) haven than the rest of CWI - true. However, we do NOT condone inappropriate actions and we certainly don't placate. While, I agree that I was one of the first to bash MrsM and make the Reconciliation thread a little less "happy", I feel we have a responsibility to help those who are seeking TRUE reconciliation.
> 
> If you're here and faking it...we're gonna call you on it. Read the entire thread and you will find instances where different parties have been "called" out and it was addressed.
> 
> We have a no rug sweep policy here. Reconciliation is BOTH partners working. Reconciliation is BOTH people taking an active role in the healing.
> 
> Reconciliation is holding each other accountable.
> 
> My apologies again for making things a bit uncomfortable. However, I would expect someone to do the same for me...which they did on 8/30/12 in this very thread.


Dig I have read every single page of this thread and I don't dispute a word you say.... or have said ...or anyone else for that matter. My observation was based on my feeling that *if it were me I'd find it daunting to deal with*, and I just thought MrM seeking feedback in here was perhaps not the most helpful for MrsM. Just my tuppence worth ... if I'm allowed.


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## SomedayDig

StarGazer101 said:


> Just my tuppence worth ... if I'm allowed.


IMO...everyone is allowed!!


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## CantSitStill

I have been called out and so has Calvin. We come here for advice and to the other's opinions so that we can see what we may be doing wrong and ways to help with this, thing called reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Mrs. M., 

I read Matt's post last night. Although, I know that you and he have been struggling and that you still are, I found it "somewhat" encouraging when he chose the "R" thread to pose his most recent concern. If for no other reason that he is probably not "finished" with the marriage if he is still searching for answers and he must have been seeking the "kinder, gentler" responses that he knew he'd get on the "R" thread versus his own...... which would have been the TAM equivalent of throwing you to the wolves.  

I'm trying really hard to spend less time on TAM, especially the "R" thread, right now. But, I feel like I have to chime in with my own thoughts about Matt's concerns.

So, here goes........ I know that you are a teacher and that you HAVE to have interactions with your students. I know that you love what you do and I highly suspect that you are excellent in your job. I also think that your students most likely see you not only as their teacher, but as their mentor, advisor, friend and as a peer that they can relate to. That's where the line begins to get blurry. You are not a 60 year old, wrinkled, gray-haired, shriveled up, bent over with osteoporosis teacher..... You are young, attractive (I say attractive without ever having seen a picture of you, but B1 and I have a running joke...... For whatever reason, on TAM, every BH describes his WW as beautiful. Not one begins his story with "My average looking wife...." ) You are "theatre." You thrive in your environment and that in itself makes you even more attractive to your students..... Particularly young, testosterone driven males........ Since I am at least a decade older than you (gasp... choke) and I have sons who are 23, 22 (will be 23 on Saturday,) 20 and 18, I see males who are your students ages as children and you view them as young men. THEY see you as a hot babe with a soap-opera like "storyline" attached to you. THAT makes you all that much more attractive to them.

THEY are going to push the boundaries, it's what kids do..... My own kids push every kind of conceivable boundary imaginable...... But, YOU are the adult. You are their teacher, you are their advisor, you are their mentor but, you cannot be their friend or their peer. They look to you to set the tone. YOU need to have well defined boundaries..... you have to if you want your marriage to have any real chance of succeeding. Matt doesn't want to have to tell you how to be an adult and certainly not how to be a wife. Nor should he have to. He needs to be able to trust in you and to have complete confidence that you not only have proper boundaries in place, but that you see the need for them and want to have them, as well. 

And, although it is of much lessor importance than your marriage, think about the example that you're setting for your students. Life isn't a soap opera...... at least it shouldn't be. It's filled with all kinds of highs and lows. But, mostly, it's made of common, average, responsibility filled days..... If we're very lucky in this lifetime, we get to share it with someone we love and who loves us back.... on all of those days.

You can be helpful, kind, and supportive to your students as a teacher, mentor and advisor, without crossing inappropriate boundaries. It's done every day. You should NEVER discuss personal problems in your marriage with your students. In fact, you shouldn't discuss personal issues of any kind with your students.... because they are "personal." 

You have to completely limit interactions with people who were a part of that toxic group (directly or by association) to only those who are currently your students. You should delete all students from your personal Facebook. If Facebook is used to communicate with your students for classroom related information and communication purposes, then you can set up a separate Facebook account just for your classroom and current students.... and Matt, of course. Your personal Facebook account should not have ANY students as friends. Your personal life and your professional life need to be separate. 

Personal conversations, FB messaging, emailing, texting, etc., with young men (or any men, except perhaps a father or a brother) about your marital problems should never, ever happen. Even if everything you say is above board, your students should not be privy to the state of your marriage. That leaves an opening a mile wide for all kinds of unhealthy interaction. Your students shouldn't have a sense of familiarity with you, they should have a sense of respect for you. And, it is completely out of line to give anyone who may be in contact with the xOM a status update about your marriage. 

I think that a lot of your self-esteem comes from your career and knowing that you're very good at what you do. I also think that you have a need to be needed, a need to be affirmed and validated by others, and a need to be respected and looked up to. I suspect for you, that your very identity is wrapped up in how you believe that you are perceived by others. THAT is something that I can personally wrap my brain around. 

For me it wasn't about a career.... it was about service. That was my personal calling. I wanted to be (it sounds like a joke now) the best Christian, daughter, wife, mother and friend that I could be. In a few short years, I lost both of my parents and a brother (for good measure.) I had a permanent falling out with two of my closest lifelong girlfriends, another girlfriend was dealing with her terminally ill, 20 y/o stepson's cancer (he passed away on D-Day last year.... again, for good measure) I was raising children who were transitioning from childhood to young adulthood (and, I can't even begin to tell you all of the ways that left me feeling like an absolute failure as a human being, at times.) I felt guilty for every parenting mistake I'd ever made... and I felt guilty for things that were completely beyond my control.... Somehow, feeling guilty allowed me to think I could "control/fix" every injustice that the world, at large, might heap upon my children. Our medical bills forced us into bankruptcy. I was pi$$ed at God about the whole situation, and my husband couldn't stand the site of me or the sound of my voice because I never had anything positive to say, and his low T kept from even connecting on a physically intimate level. So, that covered it. I was a COMPLETE failure.... (Not sure which emoticon fits, here.) For someone like me, whose very identity and sense of value is derived from others' opinions, I became "Empty Inside."

I think your career is to you as my "service" was to me. It defines your value. Because you do it very well, and you do receive so much positive affirmation from it, you are still having a difficult time separating what you do from who you are. You are still allowing your career to be far too enmeshed with your whole personhood. And, your boundaries, where your career is concerned, are still not as strong as they have to be for your other relationships to be healthy. Primarily, your relationship with your family. Right now, your marriage (I'm not saying Matt) is not feeding your needs to be validated... and the rewards of parenting take a lot of time to come to fruition. Although there are lots of precious rewards along the way... But, you have to be paying attention to experience them. 

I'm just rambling...... No real advice, just some things that you and Matt might want to think about.

This last paragraph is not specifically for anyone..... But, it could apply to many......

I do think that in far too many marriages, that spouses forget that it is a partnership. People usually don't get married without the expectation of having some of their needs met by their spouse. No one can meet all of our needs, nor should they have to. We are responsible for our own choices and our own happiness.... BUT, why would anyone ever get married, at all, if they didn't NEED something from someone other than themselves? It is NEVER the BS's fault when their spouse chooses infidelity as a means to fill their own needs and desires. But, I am going to say this........ If your spouse is communicating their needs to you, and they are reasonable, normal needs that one should be able to expect within a committed relationship, and you are systematically choosing to disregard their needs........ the results can be devastating..... for both of you.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I don't even know where to begin to reply here. Mostly I feel like anything I say will be interpreted as "rationalization" or lack of ownership over what I did. But I guess I feel compelled to comment on a couple of points.

TSB lives in another state. He did not enable the affair, nor have any knowledge of it while it was occurring, to my understanding. Our first discussion of it was after D-Day #2.

After D-Day #2, TSB was the only person willing to give Matt the address for TS so he could send the NC letter. I believe that was a big decision on his part to help Matt and I over his own family.

Since D-Day #2, I have had 3 conversations with TSB regarding the affair and the state of my life, including the one you have read. He has asked me how I was doing, and I responded honestly, as I do with everyone who asks. I do not want to minimize this to friends and former students. I want them to be aware of the destruction these choices bring. In almost every case, I am told "You are a good person, don't be so hard on yourself, blah blah blah." I hate that, and want people to understand that there is no way I could be too hard on myself after the pain that I have caused my family. I will not minimize this or allow someone to help me do that.

Regarding his insults to Matt, the first comment about "licking his wounds" was made immediately after D-Day #2, when Matt had unfriended him on FB. It's childish and stupid, and very reactionary are TSB's part. He really looked up to Matt and was hurt that he would be shut out because of something that he wasn't involved in. And yes, it clearly indicates his lack of understanding as to the seriousness and pain of this situation. Partially due to age, and partially I believe due to the fact that I don't think ANYONE can really understand the maelstrom of this without experiencing it firsthand.

Regarding the comment about "beat of a different drum", I interpreted that as a continuation of his comment before, as in I have believed in him and a lot of other people who haven't felt like they fit in - not a comment about Matt. But I could be wrong, and have been many times.

Here are the other two conversations we've had:

November 18 - the day after D-Day #2


> TSB: Matt talked to me last night. It left me fairly angry, so I'm sorry I was so short this morning.
> Basically he doesnt want to be associated with me because of you, OM, TS, and TS2. If he can't distinguish me from 4 other people, then I'm over it. I don't need to be associated with him. Maybe when he is done licking his wounds he will come around. It's ****ty, but whatever.
> 
> TSB: Also, whatever you be feeling right now, know TSB loves you. You're one of my best and sweetest friends, and I'm sure the last thing you need is someone telling you you made a boo-boo. So don't expect anything like that from me.
> 
> MrsM: Thanks, TSB... I don't deserve such kindness from you. I really appreciate it, though.
> 
> TSB: Life isn't fair, so you get it anyway
> Whats up?
> 
> MrsM: Just finished opera class. Hiding in my office. Trying not to face the carnage at home.
> It's a crazy thing when your husband blocks you on FB.
> 
> TSB: I could imagine.
> 
> MrsM: But, he won't be my husband too much longer, so I guess then it will be normal to be blocked by an ex.
> 
> TSB: balls
> 
> MrsM: Yep
> So, I'm really making my mark with colossal mistakes that change the course of one's life.
> 
> TSB: at least it seems that way...
> I'm not sure you will always look at it that way.
> 
> MrsM: Probably not. I'm sure that everyone who goes through this survives, learns from it, and finds a way to be functional, if not happy, again.
> I need to get going for the night. I haven't slept since Friday, and still have opera work to do before tomorrow morning.
> Someday, I'll give you a call or something... I'm tired of texting all the time. Thanks again, TSB. You will never know how grateful I am for your compassion.
> 
> TSB: get some rest, and I look forward to it. Try not to get too down.
> 
> MrsM: Night TSB.
> I'll do my best.



April 10


> TSB: how goes it for you?
> 
> MrsM: Not great. Last night was rough for Matt. He
> He's back to feeling like he needs a divorce.
> 
> TSB:
> you dont feel that way?
> 
> MrsM: I don't know what he needs, honestly. I have no clue what would be best for him. I've been working really hard to be the kind of wife I should have been, and many things have improved over the last 5 months, in my view. But I hurt and betrayed him so badly, and that can never be undone. It's nauseating.
> 
> MrsM: I want our kids to have a chance to grow up with both parents - I want the new baby to know his/her dad, not just as a visitor. I know I should have been thinking of that before, and it's too late.
> 
> TSB: You think you guys would put a lot of distance between you if it came to that? I mean, I couldnt imagine either of you being too far away from Child #1, or wanting the other that far away from him, and the new baby.
> 
> MrsM: I don't know where Matt would go. I would probably move to Other Town and take over Other Company, it'd be a lot more money, so the kids and I would be more secure. It's hard to say right now.
> I"m headed out to grab some lunch... sorry to dump on you today. Hope things keep going well for you.
> 
> MrsM:
> Thanks for listening.
> 
> TSB:
> okay, ill talk to you later. Im always hereif you need to talk about stuff. Keep your chin up though. You still have plenty to smile about.


TSB is/was not on the list of NC individuals. He was planning to stop by during spring break and I spoke with Matt about his preferences regarding that visit. Matt had given permission for TSB to visit at school and sit in on a rehearsal, and I said that I would not discuss any of the NC parties or situation with him, and was willing to wear my voice recorder during that conversation. It didn't happen - TSB wasn't able to make the trip back.

Regarding the most recent conversation, it was 5 am. I hadn't slept in 3 nights. I had been crying since midnight. I had spent the night on FB and TAM and other sites just trying to distract myself. He asked and I answered. I probably would have said the same things to ANYONE who messaged me at that point in the morning, even if they didn't already know about the affair. But in general, I try to only discuss it with people who already know, rather than bring it up with general associates/friends outside of the carnage. I do have female friends who know about the affair, but they haven't really contacted me to ask how I'm doing, and for whatever f'd up reason, I don't want to be the person who always calls them crying and only initiates contact when I'm struggling, even if that's what I need. They have families, lives, and I guess I feel that if they had extra time/energy for me, they would have called or written and asked. So I don't want to be a burden with my mess. TSB asked. That's why I talked to him.

So yes, I continue to have boundary issues. I'll just add him to the list of people that I have to make a conscious effort to censor myself around until the habit of speaking openly is gone, and keep working to find other outlets. I'll try to go back to journaling or whatever.

ETA: I have NO conversations about personal details with any current students. I have completely shut them out of my life since the beginning of this year. I know many of them (if not all of them) have heard about my circumstances, but NOT ONE has brought it up to me or asked for details. Matt's students typically ask him. Mine have simply worked hard, done what I've asked of them, and been as respectful and motivated as prior students were pre-affair. I will forever be grateful for their basic respect of my privacy and desire to help themselves and my program succeed through an incredibly difficult year for me.


----------



## TCSRedhead

I'm not going to add to what others have said but I am going to post about our own journey as they relate to this.

After I gave all my passwords to C&B, he came to me about an email chain with a male colleague where it was definitely flirty and definitely initiated by me and definitely after we were in R. It didn't go anywhere and wasn't overt or anything sexual. It was after our son was born and while I was spending 24 hours a day as a milk dispenser so I was up at all crazy hours of the day and night. 
His email to me said something that could have been taken in a few different ways, my answer back was that I could comment further but I was gonna bite my tongue. He responded that was no fun. I answered - I could use some fun these days.

At the time, I didn't see any issue or problem with the exchange. There was no further discussion on the matter and we moved on.

For C&B, this hurt. He saw echoes of past behaviors, that even though faint, made him relive what he had been through.

I've always been a friendly, flirty and outgoing person as is C&B. I am finding that I am toning that way, way, way down. I make sure that as I'm having any type of 'private' conversation, I share it with C&B so as not to have him misconstrue the nature of it. 

The other rule I've created is that I will NOT discuss the details of our R/Marriage with any male other than C&B (other than what I post here looking for help and trying to help). I've started thinking about it in context of intimacy. It really took a mindset change but it's keeping our marriage and our reconciliation intimate to us.


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## SomedayDig

The only thing I will point out is simple...and it's from the November conversation.

TSB: _Also, whatever you be feeling right now, know TSB loves you. *You're one of my best and sweetest friends*, and I'm sure the last thing you need is someone telling you you made a boo-boo. So don't expect anything like that from me._

This just feels icky to me. "Best and sweetest friends"? He's a student. You're a teacher. Regret is a 9th grade high school teacher. While it might not be the same as college level the boundaries are still or at least should be the same. A kid last year hid in one of her storage closets and secretly video'd her alone in her classroom. Just her cleaning up her desk and whatnot. He emailed it to her with a subject of "I'm watching..." Well, the email she sent back let him know immediately how inappropriate his actions were. Hell...it pissed me off to the point of almost going up to the school even though it was a "kid".

Point is...you KNOW there are boundaries. You don't NEED anyone - especially us at TAM to explain that to you.

Again...I'm sorry to make this thread a bit uncomfortable, however I sincerely only want people to understand that it's ACTIONS - not mere words that we're all working on here. I'll hold you and every wayward to the same standard I hold Regret to. Not an inch less or more.


----------



## frozen

Thanks for the welcome. I need to post but I have to do it from my computer, too much to write on my phone.


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## EI

You're doing great, Dig! I don't think you're making anyone uncomfortable, you're showing that it's real. This isn't the "Pacify/Coddle" thread. It's the "Reconciliation" thread. It takes real work, real hard work to achieve it..... So, stop apologizing..... We can take it. 

BTW...... There has been lots of mentions of pm's between the sexes on TAM. I was probably the WW who pm'd you thanking you for your initial thread. It was in the early days of my TAM experience...... which I found to be much more unpleasant than I do now. It was helpful for B1 and I to see another "couple" posting together. We hadn't discovered Calvin and CSS, yet, in the private section. I was getting pretty beat up on a daily basis, on TAM, at the time. B1 and I immediately felt a sense of commraderie with you and Regret. 

I'll be very honest, I am a very social and chatty person..... Yeah, I know, everyone is surprised......  I send and receive pm's to and from men and women...... Both WS's, BS's and others posting on TAM. It has always been appropriate and regarding issues that are openly discussed on TAM. Many BS's have pm'd me seeking input in their own situations.... I suppose looking for insight into the mind of a WS. And, I do have lots of communications with other WW's, because, obviously, we have to talk to someone who we can pour our hearts out to, at times. B1 and I share all passwords and are free to login to each others' accounts with or without advance warning. Sometimes, I log into his just to correct his grammar, spelling and punctuation.....  Usually not, because I don't have that much time......  (Love you, B1) 

Neither B1 or I have had any problems or concerns regarding that. I just wanted to state my feelings on that subject. 

I've been on here far too long today.......... Carry on.....


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## bfree

EI said:


> You're doing great, Dig! I don't think you're making anyone uncomfortable, you're showing that it's real. This isn't the "Pacify/Coddle" thread. It's the "Reconciliation" thread. It takes real work, real hard work to achieve it..... So, stop apologizing..... We can take it.
> 
> BTW...... There has been lots of mentions of pm's between the sexes on TAM. I was probably the WW who pm'd you thanking you for your initial thread. It was in the early days of my TAM experience...... which I found to be much more unpleasant than I do now. It was helpful for B1 and I to see another "couple" posting together. We hadn't discovered Calvin and CSS, yet, in the private section. I was getting pretty beat up on a daily basis, on TAM, at the time. B1 and I immediately felt a sense of commraderie with you and Regret.
> 
> I'll be very honest, I am a very social and chatty person..... Yeah, I know, everyone is surprised......  I send and receive pm's to and from men and women...... Both WS's, BS's and others posting on TAM. It has always been appropriate and regarding issues that are openly discussed on TAM. Many BS's have pm'd me seeking input in their own situations.... I suppose looking for insight into the mind of a WS. And, I do have lots of communications with other WW's, because, obviously, we have to talk to someone who we can pour our hearts out to, at times. B1 and I share all passwords and are free to login to each others' accounts with or without advance warning. Sometimes, I log into his just to correct his grammar, spelling and punctuation.....  Usually not, because I don't have that much time......  (Love you, B1)
> 
> Neither B1 or I have had any problems or concerns regarding that. I just wanted to state my feelings on that subject.
> 
> I've been on here far too long today.......... Carry on.....


I just want to piggyback on this for a second. EI, you and B1 have agreed upon boundaries regarding PMs to others on TAM. Dig, you and Regret have different boundaries regarding PMs on TAM. This is as it should be. But those boundaries had to be stated clearly and firmly. No one assumed what was appropriate and what was not. I feel Matt and Mrs M need to sit down and discuss what their boundaries truly are regarding friends, students, the opposite sex etc. I remember very distinctly when Mrs M mentioned in passing that Matt was talking to a female former student some chimed in and began to talk about how that wasn't appropriate. Mrs M immediately came to his defense and explained that there was nothing inappropriate going on in the least and that it was something BOTH of them agreed on. Now we have a situation where Mrs M is talking to a former student that Matt apparently agreed was an acceptable "friend" yet now there is an issue. This is exactly what I meant by mixed messages. I see a lot of communication breakdowns just like this occurring between them even pre affair. In the same way as transparency going both ways if having students as friends is not appropriate then it is not appropriate for EITHER of them. There needs to be one hard and fast set of rules, not for a husband, not for a wife, not for a BS or even a WS. There has to be ONE SET of rules FOR A MARRIAGE. And this goes for any marriage regardless of the structure. Even open marriages have set rules and when those rules are broken mayhem ensues. Communication is the key because good communication is the glue that holds relationships together and prevents misunderstandings and "love busters."


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## Acabado

Firm, clear boundaires are there to protect outselves even from our shortomings. Not going to keep going on this subject anymore. Dig, EA... everyone gave sound advice here. 

Mrs, with no enjoyment I must tell I already told you are desperately in need of friends, emotionaly healthy friends, female friends, ideally older friends (older than you). I asked you what was your real life support was. You have no one aparently. You must find it. It's your responsability. They can be from you background, artists, teachers... or not.


Mr. I'm sorry.


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## SomedayDig

EI said:


> BTW...... There has been lots of mentions of pm's between the sexes on TAM. *I was probably the WW who pm'd you thanking you for your initial thread.*




Yup. However, I didn't want to give out any name as it's more the point than the whodunit.


Bfree...nail on the head, man ~ it's ALL about communication. Only through communication can you set clear and distinctive boundaries about this stuff. And, I'll add, if something comes up that hasn't been discussed, listen to your gut as guidance for how to initially respond (or not). Then, talk to your spouse about it. It can only serve the betterment of ones marriage.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Acabado said:


> Firm, clear boundaires are there to protect outselves even from our shortomings. Not going to keep going on this subject anymore. Dig, EA... everyone gave sound advice here.
> 
> Mrs, with no enjoyment I must tell I already told you are desperately in need of friends, emotionaly healthy friends, female friends, ideally older friends (older than you). I asked you what was your real life support was. You have no one aparently. You must find it. It's your responsability. They can be from you background, artists, teachers... or not.
> 
> 
> Mr. I'm sorry.


I know I've been told I need to find "friends". Would anyone care to tell me how or where? I am a one person department. Matt is the art teacher. The two other art teachers are male. I hate the theater instructor with the fire of a thousand suns. My instrumental music colleague is female, but incredibly reserved and in 9 years we have never really interacted on a personal level. She is also fighting what is likely terminal cancer.

So, do I just go to a local moms meeting and start hanging out with people with kids my age? And then what? Oh, I'm so glad I met you, I really need a friend to talk to now that I've been a cheating wh0re and my life is in shambles. Oh, you're a total right wing Christian from rural Kansas? Yes, let's spend lots of time together discussing the nothing we have in common because you are mid-thirties, and appropriate for me. Every other local female "friend" I have is a mutual friend with Matt - we spend time with them as couples. I do NOT want any of them to feel like they have to choose sides or make them uncomfortable because of our problems.

Plus, where do I find this time to suddenly focus on building relationships outside of my marriage? I spend every moment I have at home with Matt and my son, focusing on THAT relationship. It just feels like there is no solution. So I continually isolate myself, or have a few phone conversations with my family, and when I just can't take it anymore, I text or call CM from here and feel weird even about that because she (like me) has enough of her own sh1t to try to manage.


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## SomedayDig

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I know I've been told I need to find "friends". Would anyone care to tell me how or where? I am a one person department. Matt is the art teacher. The two other art teachers are male. I hate the theater instructor with the fire of a thousand suns. My instrumental music colleague is female, but incredibly reserved and in 9 years we have never really interacted on a personal level. She is also fighting what is likely terminal cancer.
> 
> So, do I just go to a local moms meeting and start hanging out with people with kids my age? And then what? Oh, I'm so glad I met you, I really need a friend to talk to now that I've been a cheating wh0re and my life is in shambles. Oh, you're a total right wing Christian from rural Kansas? Yes, let's spend lots of time together discussing the nothing we have in common because you are mid-thirties, and appropriate for me. Every other local female "friend" I have is a mutual friend with Matt - we spend time with them as couples. I do NOT want any of them to feel like they have to choose sides or make them uncomfortable because of our problems.
> 
> Plus, where do I find this time to suddenly focus on building relationships outside of my marriage? I spend every moment I have at home with Matt and my son, focusing on THAT relationship. It just feels like there is no solution. So I continually isolate myself, or have a few phone conversations with my family, and when I just can't take it anymore, I text or call CM from here and feel weird even about that because she (like me) has enough of her own sh1t to try to manage.


Hmm...okay. I'm honest to God trying to understand what I'm interpreting as resistance.

If you have mutual friends of your marriage, then why _not_ confide in one of them. You don't have to include them all. You know there's a favorite of yours. We all have a favorite. And when you open up the lines of communication you let them know - "We're doing our best to work this out" and simply let them know its not a blame game...it's not a right or wrong thing. It's a "you are our friends" thing and we would like your help by listening, being a sounding board, and maybe - just maybe they might have real life advice since they actually KNOW you that none of us at TAM will ever in a hundred years be able to do.

It's sh-t scary. Trust me. I f'ng know full and well. Regret and I had our "gang" of friends. You know the story...they were also mutual friends with the xOM. They took his side because I told his wife and she divorced him. They blamed me. Well...we have other friends, too who weren't involved in the least with that crowd. We confided in a couple of them, and they have been some of the best support ever. They sincerely watch out for us. They ask us how we're doing all the time. 

They care.

Pick a favorite MrsM and Matt. There just HAS to be a couple that you trust enough to talk about REAL sh-t going on in your lives and not who got drafted to the Steelers or how pretty those gardenias look in the garden.


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## Robsia

I've been watching from the sidelines as I have no real advice to offer. I'm too mired in my own stuff to have any useful advice to most people, but I can chime in the the friends thing.

I have one friend. One.

Well, I have several hundred if you believe FB, but most of those are writing contacts.

I have one good friend I confide in on a regular basis about what has been going on. I haven't even told my own sister as it's too painful to keep going over it and to try to explain why we're trying to R.

I did tell my boss and my co-author as I had to explain to them both why I couldn't meet a deadline at the beginning of April. They were great, but they are not close friends.

If someone told me out of the blue I had to start making friends, I wouldn't know where to start.


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## CantSitStill

I do not talk to any of my friends. It's my choice because I don't want to burden them with my problems in our marriage. I wouldn't want to listen to them whine about their problems all the time. So I've become a hermit. My friends are probably mad at me for not keeping in touch but until I feel better,I just stay to myself and talk to people here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

SomedayDig said:


> Hmm...okay. I'm honest to God trying to understand what I'm interpreting as resistance.
> 
> If you have mutual friends of your marriage, then why _not_ confide in one of them. You don't have to include them all. You know there's a favorite of yours. We all have a favorite. And when you open up the lines of communication you let them know - "We're doing our best to work this out" and simply let them know its not a blame game...it's not a right or wrong thing. It's a "you are our friends" thing and we would like your help by listening, being a sounding board, and maybe - just maybe they might have real life advice since they actually KNOW you that none of us at TAM will ever in a hundred years be able to do.
> 
> It's sh-t scary. Trust me. I f'ng know full and well. Regret and I had our "gang" of friends. You know the story...they were also mutual friends with the xOM. They took his side because I told his wife and she divorced him. They blamed me. Well...we have other friends, too who weren't involved in the least with that crowd. We confided in a couple of them, and they have been some of the best support ever. They sincerely watch out for us. They ask us how we're doing all the time.
> 
> They care.
> 
> Pick a favorite MrsM and Matt. There just HAS to be a couple that you trust enough to talk about REAL sh-t going on in your lives and not who got drafted to the Steelers or how pretty those gardenias look in the garden.


I"m really trying not to be resistant, and it is something that my counselor and I AND Matt and I have talked about. I have a "need to be needed". When people are in trouble, I want them to reach out to me. Once they do I make sure to look after them regularly, until they seem to have gotten through it, or if I notice something seems off, I check in again. But at the same time, I do have a REAL resistance to being "dependent" on someone else. I have no f'ing clue why. So when I do find someone that is "there for me" and is willing to initiate that contact and reach out to me, that's easier for me to respond to than to ask them for help.

It's one of the most conflicting things about me - wanting to reach out to others when they need it, but being reticent about sharing myself in the same manner. I am working on it, but it's not something that I have found an easily identifiable source for or solution to, other than to just decide to change years of behavior, and that's hard.

The couple that I feel most comfortable with was who Matt turned to after both D-Day 1 and D-Day 2, and I just have a real hesitation about also asking for support when they know exactly how despicable I am, and I also don't want Matt to feel in any way like they are compromised, or supporting both of us in case he decides to divorce, I want him to feel like they are firmly HIS. That's probably completely irrational, but I am so afraid of my needs taking away something else from him.


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## hopefulgirl

I'm a BS, and I've told NOBODY that I know. Not one person. I am so afraid that my friends and family would never forgive my WS. So I've just kept it to myself. I've thought about IC, but I'm aware that many therapists are not well informed about infidelity. If I walked in and a counselor asked me what I did to make my husband cheat on me, I think I could possibly be capable of violence. 

issed:

I have talked to friends of the marriage about his spending problem, so I've had a little bit of a "release valve" in that sense. I didn't speak of his financial infidelity (he used to hide some of his excess spending from me, which I believe was part of the slippery slope of secrecy that made him even more vulnerable to the A).

Mainly I post here, pm, and write stuff down to keep it from rattling around in my brain. Otherwise, I'd got nuts. Talking to friends is not an option that I see open to me either.

Mrs M, since you do see a counselor, can you afford to go more often? Some people go twice weekly when they're going through a rough patch.


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## TCSRedhead

I can relate to that a lot MM. We moved here right after DDay. I work a full time job and have a small son. I have made NO close local friends. It's extremely lonely and hard. I live in a small-ish city with a lot of people who have very different backgrounds and views. We're moving in two months and I'm really hoping that helps. 

At work, it's just a rosy, peachy picture since they have no idea of the hell we've been through. 

I would turn to the couple who are already familiar with the situation. You'll be surprised that people are willing to listen and be there for you.

I know you're spending a lot of time with Matt and your son. Is it possible to spend some time on you apart from them, doing some activity with like people? I know that sounds trite and cliche but it may help you overall.


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## PreRaphaelite

MrsM I'll be frank: TBH may be a dear friend of yours for a number of years, but he is far younger and to him, marriage is another world. As you point out, he doesn't understand what Matt is going through. how could he?

I find some of his comments about Matt very close to being put-downs. He's phrasing things as tactfully as he can, but there's a subtle message in there.

Also, I really, honestly feel like he IS fishing. Please don't take this wrong but I have to come out with it: it almost seems like he'd like to see you and Matt get divorced. He's almost saying so. And when you're free of Matt, well then he'll be there to comfort you.

The particular reply that stuck out to me was,

TSB:youre too hard on yourself. You are too good, and too important to rise above this."

Sorry but that's flattery. He's trying to get closer to you.

And this:

MrsM: Not great. Last night was rough for Matt. He
He's back to feeling like he needs a divorce.

TSB:
you dont feel that way?"

There's just a little bit too much insinuation in there for me. 

I think EI in her post is spot on. GUys his age are on a completely different wavelength, and by confiding in him you may be encouraging something you may not want to.

I would seriously limit my communications with this guy. I too am a teacher at the university. If I had communications with a female student like that I would very definitely interpret it as having a sexual subtext.


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## BK23

PreRaphaelite said:


> MrsM I'll be frank: TBH may be a dear friend of yours for a number of years, but he is far younger and to him, marriage is another world. As you point out, he doesn't understand what Matt is going through. how could he?
> 
> I find some of his comments about Matt very close to being put-downs. He's phrasing things as tactfully as he can, but there's a subtle message in there.
> 
> Also, I really, honestly feel like he IS fishing. Please don't take this wrong but I have to come out with it: it almost seems like he'd like to see you and Matt get divorced. He's almost saying so. And when you're free of Matt, well then he'll be there to comfort you.
> 
> The particular reply that stuck out to me was,
> 
> TSB:youre too hard on yourself. You are too good, and too important to rise above this."
> 
> Sorry but that's flattery. He's trying to get closer to you.
> 
> And this:
> 
> MrsM: Not great. Last night was rough for Matt. He
> He's back to feeling like he needs a divorce.
> 
> TSB:
> you dont feel that way?"
> 
> There's just a little bit too much insinuation in there for me.
> 
> I think EI in her post is spot on. GUys his age are on a completely different wavelength, and by confiding in him you may be encouraging something you may not want to.


I think you are spot on. I was a guy this age... about a decade ago, and I recall several things: (i) I had very few opposite sex friends that I was not sexually or romantically interested in; (ii) I did not chat online with my professors about intimate details of their marriages; (iii) I did not casually drop that "I loved" my female friends--I know many friends harmlessly exchange I love yous, but guys seldom do. 

I think some of the negative reaction you've gotten here, Mrs. M, is that to many of us casual observers, it seems pretty obvious that this guy is NOT a friend of your marriage. I think you handled yourself really well in the conversation, but it is exasperating that you can't pick up on the glaringly obvious social cues and dynamics that made that interaction inappropriate.


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## SomedayDig

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I"m really trying not to be resistant, and it is something that my counselor and I AND Matt and I have talked about. I have a "need to be needed". When people are in trouble, I want them to reach out to me. Once they do I make sure to look after them regularly, until they seem to have gotten through it, or if I notice something seems off, I check in again. But at the same time, I do have a REAL resistance to being "dependent" on someone else. I have no f'ing clue why. So when I do find someone that is "there for me" and is willing to initiate that contact and reach out to me, that's easier for me to respond to than to ask them for help.
> 
> It's one of the most conflicting things about me - wanting to reach out to others when they need it, but being reticent about sharing myself in the same manner. I am working on it, but it's not something that I have found an easily identifiable source for or solution to, other than to just decide to change years of behavior, and that's hard.
> 
> The couple that I feel most comfortable with was who Matt turned to after both D-Day 1 and D-Day 2, and I just have a real hesitation about also asking for support when they know exactly how despicable I am, and I also don't want Matt to feel in any way like they are compromised, or supporting both of us in case he decides to divorce, I want him to feel like they are firmly HIS. That's probably completely irrational, but I am so afraid of my needs taking away something else from him.


I fully understand your hesitation about burdening others. I absolutely get that. Like I said, we've been there.

Yet...here sits an 800 pound gorilla (that's 57 stone for you Euro's still using that antique system ). His name is EXPOSURE. We all talk about how important it is and why we do it, so...why don't we do it with our closest friends?

Ego.

Plain and simple. It's much easier to go through life not "burdening" people with our sh-t. Hell yeah! TONS easier.

But in reality, it's our ego. I'm not saying that in a bad way, either. I'm saying it's just the way it is. We really would rather walk through life with our rose colored glasses. We really would like to be like Hyacinth Bucket on 'Keeping Up Appearances' (BBC). It's a much nicer filled life.

Yet...what happens IF Matt leaves you MrsM? What then? Do you not think those same friends won't ask "What happened?" Then, when you tell them what happened, their next inclination will absolutely be, "Ya know...I could tell there was something going on."

It's up to you guys. Roll the dice and keep somewhat status quo or take a chance that those who are truly friends of your marriage will respect you each individually while supporting your marriage.

"Quick" Dig reveal...I ride with one of the largest Motorcycle Clubs in the world. The MC world is very male driven. A couple months after Dday, I decided it was time to talk to my Brothers because they ARE my family (besides Regret and our kids). I talked to my Prez and our State Rep about things. I told them that Regret and I were working on things and simply asked if they could keep an eye out and if anything seemed out of character to let me know ASAP. Initially, Regret was scared because...well...she really cares for my Brothers and did NOT want them to hate her because of what she did to me.

She went to an event with me a week later...big one with like 80 of our guys alone. She walked up to the Prez and aplogized to him for what she had done. He hugged her and told her what she did was wrong but that they all had OUR backs no matter what. She earned a lot of respect that day not just from my Brothers, but from me.

She dropped her ego and allowed herself to be vulnerable to our friends. Ever since, whenever we show up at a party or an event, she gets ALMOST as many hugs from my Brothers as I do.


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## MrMathias

Thanks for your comments everyone, I appreciate it. 



EI said:


> I read Matt's post last night. Although, I know that you and he have been struggling and that you still are, I found it "somewhat" encouraging when he chose the "R" thread to pose his most recent concern. If for no other reason that he is probably not "finished" with the marriage if he is still searching for answers and he must have been seeking the "kinder, gentler" responses that he knew he'd get on the "R" thread versus his own...... which would have been the TAM equivalent of throwing you to the wolves.


The above statement is why I posted in the Reconciliation thread- I truly thought this would be the best place for feedback from 'both sides' more or less equally. I thought of starting a new thread which I decided was unnecessary, or using my old one (which would have been very brutal I think), but it seemed silly when there are people here, working on and dealing with issues like this. 

Thanks again to all, especially bfree. Your comments about 'equal' boundaries regardless of who cheated, and who is the man or woman are relevant and that's something I've been thinking about anyway. 

We had a talk last night about TSB in particular, and we'll have to discuss concrete boundaries in general, for both of us.


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## Mr Blunt

> By EI
> I'll be very honest, I am a very social and chatty person..... Yeah, I know, everyone is surprised...... I send and receive pm's to and from men and women...... Both WS's, BS's and others posting on TAM. It has always been appropriate and regarding issues that are openly discussed on TAM.


I PMed B1 about him and EI until B1 told me rather quickly that I could PM EI. *That says a lot about B1 and how much EI has helped him be a very good example for BS*.
I know B1 and EI have their bad days but reading their posts tells me they are outstanding.

Even though I appreciate B1 telling me I could PM EI I would PM EI and copy in B1. In B1 and EI’s case that may not be necessary but I like it like that.


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## Mr Blunt

> By EI (Partial quote of post 7275)
> I do think that in far too many marriages, that spouses forget that it is a partnership. People usually don't get married without the expectation of having some of their needs met by their spouse. No one can meet all of our needs, nor should they have to. We are responsible for our own choices and our own happiness.... BUT, why would anyone ever get married, at all, if they didn't NEED something from someone other than themselves? It is NEVER the BS's fault when their spouse chooses infidelity as a means to fill their own needs and desires. But, I am going to say this........ If your spouse is communicating their needs to you, and they are reasonable, normal needs that one should be able to expect within a committed relationship, and you are systematically choosing to disregard their needs........ the results can be devastating..... for both of you.


*EI’s entire post 7275 is very good!*

I hope that EI does whatever will help her and her family even if that means not being on TAM or being on TAM less. In fact I do not have to hope I know she will.

*I just want to say that I think that EI is better than a lot of MC that I have visited. EI has the combination of very being intelligent, insightful, experienced, with great compassion and strength. She also has a lot to offer not just for infidelity but other family and life problems.* I am amazed that she is still standing.

I have been in successful R for over 20 years and B1 and EI are just flat encouraging to the max!


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## ChangingMe

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Plus, where do I find this time to suddenly focus on building relationships outside of my marriage? I spend every moment I have at home with Matt and my son, focusing on THAT relationship. It just feels like there is no solution. So I continually isolate myself, or have a few phone conversations with my family, and when I just can't take it anymore, I text or call CM from here and feel weird even about that because she (like me) has enough of her own sh1t to try to manage.


Seriously, MrsM, please do not hesitate to call or text. You talk about wanting to help, and I am the same way. You other fWWs on TAM have been one of the greatest resources for me through this hell I've created. I hope that I have been able to help some of you as much as you help me by just being there to listen, offer support without judgement, and just knowing you are there. Yes, I have my own crap going on, but it helps in an odd way to focus on someone else's problems for a bit instead of my own.


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## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I know I've been told I need to find "friends". Would anyone care to tell me how or where? I am a one person department. Matt is the art teacher. The two other art teachers are male. I hate the theater instructor with the fire of a thousand suns. My instrumental music colleague is female, but incredibly reserved and in 9 years we have never really interacted on a personal level. She is also fighting what is likely terminal cancer.
> 
> So, do I just go to a local moms meeting and start hanging out with people with kids my age? And then what? Oh, I'm so glad I met you, I really need a friend to talk to now that I've been a cheating wh0re and my life is in shambles. Oh, you're a total right wing Christian from rural Kansas? Yes, let's spend lots of time together discussing the nothing we have in common because you are mid-thirties, and appropriate for me. Every other local female "friend" I have is a mutual friend with Matt - we spend time with them as couples. I do NOT want any of them to feel like they have to choose sides or make them uncomfortable because of our problems.
> 
> Plus, where do I find this time to suddenly focus on building relationships outside of my marriage? I spend every moment I have at home with Matt and my son, focusing on THAT relationship. It just feels like there is no solution. So I continually isolate myself, or have a few phone conversations with my family, and when I just can't take it anymore, I text or call CM from here and feel weird even about that because she (like me) has enough of her own sh1t to try to manage.


Totally, totally get this. Totally.

First, as one of the early chimers-in, I hope you don't think I was bashing you. I care about you and Matt.

Secondly, some people, like Dig, find it easy to pick a friend and talk about this stuff. Partly a reflection of who they are, and partly a reflection of their friends. But that isn't my experience. I am VERY selective who I tell personal stuff too. When Mrs Wazza had her affair I told my best friend, and because of some other stuff going on in his life it cost me that friendship. So I stopped talking about it basically until I came onto TAM.

And obviously, because we are solidly reconciled, I am less vulnerable than you are right now. My heart aches for what you are going through.

But that doesn't change a word of my concern about your conversations with TSB. Your posts of the other conversations add context and I can understand his hurt, but I still think his words are dangerous, and particularly when your vulnerability is clear.

Now once I came to TAM it uncorked something and I started talking. I have spoken to three people...all women. Two flesh and blood, one via emails. In all cases it just happened. In two cases it was possible to our boundaries in place to make I totally appropriate and hold me accountable several steps away from anything inappropriate. In the third, there was a different feeling...a subtext that she was available. Dunno if the conversation just happened or she had an agenda when she initiated it. 

So I continue to talk to the first two when appropriate, but shut the other down totally.

In fact, Mrs Email is my closest confidant for me. The other woman is going through a terrible situation and I seek to help her.

In both cases with support from Mrs Wazza and with clearly discussed boundaries. To the point where Mrs Wazza thinks I worry too much.

In the case of Mrs Emails, I also asked and received permission from her husband. The four of us have a relationship as two couples.

Point being that in bit cases the interactions stop a long way away from potential affair territory. And your conversation with TSB doesn't feel that way to me. And I have safeguards in place that I initiated and Mrs Wazza thinks are more than enough, whereas I can't see your safeguards and Matt is clearly uncomfortable.

Hope this helps. I have more I could write but already too verbose.


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## Wazza

Mat, what at you doing to heal yourself?


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Wazza said:


> Mat, what at you doing to heal yourself?


I would also ask what Matt is doing to work on himself. Part of healing should be building a stronger more well rounded person. We can always improve in some way or another.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> I would also ask what Matt is doing to work on himself. Part of healing should be building a stronger more well rounded person. We can always improve in some way or another.


Very true bfree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

TCS and Mrs M, I also really relate to not having any local friends. My only friend lives many miles away and is too busy to talk most of the time. My therapist is too busy to see me 2x a week, otherwise I'd be there! 

As Mrs M indicated, friends don't grow on trees. It's damnably difficult to meet anyone you can relate to and with whom you share any common ground, let alone someone who could be a real friend. It's frustrating to be told to just make friends because it's so very hard and there don't seem to be many places to do that.


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## MattMatt

Wazza said:


> Totally, totally get this. Totally.
> 
> First, as one of the early chimers-in, I hope you don't think I was bashing you. I care about you and Matt.
> 
> Secondly, some people, like Dig, find it easy to pick a friend and talk about this stuff. Partly a reflection of who they are, and partly a reflection of their friends. But that isn't my experience. I am VERY selective who I tell personal stuff too. When Mrs Wazza had her affair I told my best friend, and because of some other stuff going on in his life it cost me that friendship. So I stopped talking about it basically until I came onto TAM.
> 
> And obviously, because we are solidly reconciled, I am less vulnerable than you are right now. My heart aches for what you are going through.
> 
> But that doesn't change a word of my concern about your conversations with TSB. Your posts of the other conversations add context and I can understand his hurt, but I still think his words are dangerous, and particularly when your vulnerability is clear.
> 
> Now once I came to TAM it uncorked something and I started talking. I have spoken to three people...all women. Two flesh and blood, one via emails. In all cases it just happened. In two cases it was possible to our boundaries in place to make I totally appropriate and hold me accountable several steps away from anything inappropriate. In the third, there was a different feeling...a subtext that she was available. Dunno if the conversation just happened or she had an agenda when she initiated it.
> 
> So I continue to talk to the first two when appropriate, but shut the other down totally.
> 
> In fact, Mrs Email is my closest confidant for me. The other woman is going through a terrible situation and I seek to help her.
> 
> In both cases with support from Mrs Wazza and with clearly discussed boundaries. To the point where Mrs Wazza thinks I worry too much.
> 
> In the case of Mrs Emails, I also asked and received permission from her husband. The four of us have a relationship as two couples.
> 
> Point being that in bit cases the interactions stop a long way away from potential affair territory. And your conversation with TSB doesn't feel that way to me. And I have safeguards in place that I initiated and Mrs Wazza thinks are more than enough, whereas I can't see your safeguards and Matt is clearly uncomfortable.
> 
> Hope this helps. I have more I could write but already too verbose.


Mrs M, when my wife cheated on me I had nobody to talk to about it. Not one person. I could not get counselling as the local counsellors were either colleagues or friends of my wife.

Why? Various reasons. I felt too ashamed that my wife had decided she needed a lover, didn't want to embarrass her and so forth.

I had a stupid revenge affair and I never even told my AP that my wife had cheated on me.

TAM was the first place where I could talk to people who had gone through some of the same types of stuff.


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## CantSitStill

Boy this thread goes all over the place as far as topics go, but I like it. Boundaries are very important on both sides.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

The long lasting pain infidelity causes is incredible,it sticks with you for awhile,sometimes for both the WS and the BS.
I have never experienced my head head being screwed up for this amount of time,its the gift that keeps giving over and over.
There does come a time where things start to click in my head,like how I know CSS feels almost as bad as I did,I say used too because I don't think she really gets what I went through,she may kinda understand but unless you're on the receiving end I just don't see it.
The good thing is that both can re-build and make it better than it was before.
I did not believe this for a year but certain couples here have shown me its possible,it can happen.
The stain will never come out....never but I notice it less and less.
Recovery is possible and it really depends on the WS.
I see the WS's stick to this thread where its a lot safer,BS's also.
It just flat out sucks that all this had to happen to all of us and I don't mean just the betrayed.
Have faith people,it WILL get better.
Hope I make sense,too many hours and lack of sleep kinda make me a little crazy.
I do know I would'nt give up CSS for anything....ever.
I think I hear the Robins cherping again.
Nevermind,all bets are off!!



Take care of eacthother people,we only have one shot at this.
Ugh back up at 2:30 tomorrow...yippie!!.
Hard too believe I'm feeling good again,its nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Where the hell is bobka????
Anyone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

Amazing after reading about these boundaries between the sexes I am lost for words. My WH use to flirt a little with clerks and stuff, I thought nothing of it even sitting right there it didn't bother me. I have many male friends (he has trouble with that cause he is jealous that I have so many friends or should say had) but I never thought twice. My friends would never do anything as to interfere in my marriage it's called "respect." Many of my male friends I have known for years and years if I needed help they would have been there in a heart beat. I couldn't imagine having sex with one of my brothers (yeah after this many years we are family) and others getting into a relationship with would kill the friendship that means so much more to us than sex, but we do flirt COMPLETELY HARMLESS! We hug at gatherings but still it is never meant to be something more. I have also learned that calling someone "sweetie" or "hon" can be twisted into being terms of endearment. Please I call so many people hon or sweetie and it is NOT only guys but the girls too. Haven't anyone gone shopping and a sales clerk with say some thing like that too. Maybe it's a different generation? I can understand now that my WH does not understand what respect really is. If I have respect for something I do not hurt it, destroy it, or abuse it. Unfortunately. I have lost respect for my WH, he don't get that either and I think he likes the short leash. Just my two cents. Sometimes it feels like we take something that is completely innocent and make it into something bad. Yeah we do that.....


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## SomedayDig

Jupiter...aye, there's the rub. A good topic to think about, I might add. A topic that I am glad that you brought up for my own good.

Some things CAN be completely innocent.

It is intent that sets it apart.


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## Robsia

Things change after cheating.

Last summer my WH broke his big toe and was in plaster for a few weeks. I drove him around to his jobs - he is a project manager in charge of installations at a major supermarket chain and has to go and check they have been done correctly, so he has to visit several different stores every week.

Each sign-off took a couple of hours so I would sit in the store cafe and surf the net while he worked. In one store, the cafe was a mezzanine which overlooked the checkout area where he was working. I was watching him work and I saw him talking to a pretty checkout manager, laughing and chatting.

I sent him a text saying "Stop flirting with the checkout chicks!"

I was teasing him. I trusted him completely. I didn't have a problem at all with him talking to this girl.

Now however, if I saw that kind of behaviour I would feel very uncomfortable, yet it is, and was, innocent. I would expect him to curtail his behaviour and keep it strictly professional.

Ironcially, one of the guys he works with regularly was with us on all of these jobs I took him too, and HE was interested in ME, flirting with me blatantly in front of my husband, even though HE was also married. I found this very uncomfortable but I was polite and friendly in return. My husband was unhappy with ME because his colleague was flirting with me. He thought me being friendly back meant that I was fllirting back, but I wasn't. I actually felt very uncomfortable. However, if I had been rude to this man or caused a scene, he wouldn't have liked that either.


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## daisygirl 41

I've been absent a few days, just getting my head in a better place. So just did a whole lot of reading.

Margrace - Thankyou for you pm. I had a hell of a week last week but I'm feeling a lot better now. I am going to the doctors today as I've noticed a pattern forming. I have a severe week of anxiety and depression the week leading up to my period. I felt almost catatonic on Friday! Can't go on like this. So lets see what the doc has to say.
I'm feeling much more positive now.

Mr and Mrs M: The conversation to the student was inappropriate, because he is a student. If Mrs M had been having the conversation with a female friend it would have been fine. 
I feel the student was being over friendly and this could possibly be dangerous ground. However I do not think Mrs M can see (or saw) this and I truly believe her interactions were innocent. 

Mrs M I understand the student wasn't on the NC list, but can you now see that this interaction was inappropriate? Can you see that having close personal friendships with students is not healthy? You should be self regulating now and should understand why this is a no no. You need to be strong Mrs M and impose those boundaries yourself. If you don't think friendships with students are inappropriate then this needs to be discussed

As others have said, do you and Mr M have any mutual friends or colleagues? Do you have nobody female you can talk to?
I have 3 close friends. We socialise as couples and individuals. They all now about Hs A. I needed them and wouldn't have got through this without them.
None of them judge him, they all still love him and have welcomed him back with open arms. That's because nobody has the perfect marriage, perfect life and if we share with others, they will share with us and we can help each other. On the other hand my H has told nobody and has never confided in anyone. But to me, that's not healthy.

Mr M - from reading Mrs Ms posts I do believe her to be truly sorry and remorseful for her actions. I believe she loves you and wants a future with you. The student friendship thing has got to stop though!
Mrs M - You are pregnant, this is the ideal time to make appropriate friendships. Go to baby class, yoga, playgroup. Join a walking club or book club. Talk to women, be approachable, make some friends. I'm not the most outgoing of people but it can be done. If that's not for you, then you have us and you have Mr M. Just stop talking to the students! (If you haven't already)

I wanted to ask you to Mrs M, how is the pregnancy progressing? How many weeks are you now? There is a lot of research that shows that when a mother is anxious or trouble while pregnant this passes on to the baby. I am a believer of this notion. Yoga is a wonderful thing for relieving stress and anxiety and will assist you in connecting and relaxing with your baby. Just a thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Its amazing how CSS really watches her boundaries now,she would never flirt but just be nice to everyone,most of the men took it as flirting.
She hardly acknowleges a man now even if he's just being friendly.
That's the way I like it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

^And yet it's a shame that someone can't be friendly to someone of the opposite sex without it being misconstrued. When I got to drop off or pick up my little girl at school I sometimes chat to the dads there, in the same way as I chat to the mums. Not much of either as I'm not a social person, but if someone talks to me I will talk back.

There is one mum, and one dad, not married to each other, but who both drop off their respective children and walk back together, I assume as they live near each other. I sometimes walk back with them as the car park is on the way. They chat about boring stuff, work, kids etc, but it struck me as a shame that someone could view that as something suspicious.

When do we stop? Do we demand that our cheating partners never pass the time of day with anyone of the opposite sex? Do we demand that they work in an environment where they will never meet anyone of the opposite sex? Obviously any secret communication is a no-no, but just chatting and being friendly?


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## calvin

Robsia said:


> ^And yet it's a shame that someone can't be friendly to someone of the opposite sex without it being misconstrued. When I got to drop off or pick up my little girl at school I sometimes chat to the dads there, in the same way as I chat to the mums. Not much of either as I'm not a social person, but if someone talks to me I will talk back.
> 
> There is one mum, and one dad, not married to each other, but who both drop off their respective children and walk back together, I assume as they live near each other. I sometimes walk back with them as the car park is on the way. They chat about boring stuff, work, kids etc, but it struck me as a shame that someone could view that as something suspicious.
> 
> When do we stop? Do we demand that our cheating partners never pass the time of day with anyone of the opposite sex? Do we demand that they work in an environment where they will never meet anyone of the opposite sex? Obviously any secret communication is a no-no, but just chatting and being friendly?


I understand what you're saying dg but sadly it seems most men take it as an invitation that a woman is interested in them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

calvin said:


> I understand what you're saying dg but sadly it seems most men take it as an invitation that a woman is interested in them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You quoted Rosbia Calvin.
For what it's worth though I agree with your comment.
It is indeed unfortunate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

I think TAM can be a little over the top on opposite sex friendships. But then we have all been burned.


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## calvin

Wazza said:


> I think TAM can be a little over the top on opposite sex friendships. But then we have all been burned.


My friends are CSS's friends,I don't mind her talking to my buddies at all,they are like brothers to her,hell they watch out for her and protect her.
I have witnessed some men try to do some pretty crappy stuff to women just because they were being treated nice.
Wazza,you're right,it is a little over the top but while I can trust CSS I can't trust most other men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Wazza said:


> I think TAM can be a little over the top on opposite sex friendships. But then we have all been burned.


There are various levels of friendships as well. Certain levels are appropriate for some but not for others. The problem is not having opposite sex friends. The problem is poor boundaries and secrecy.

I have one elderly lady that I talk to. Our banter is very flirty. We both know is just fun talk and my wife is not only aware if it but plays along. She often tells this woman that if she steals me there is going to be a fight. As always common sense should prevail.


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## CantSitStill

I am just so much more aware now whether a man is being overly friendly or not. I can strike up conversations at the 711 with strangers, I just am more aware of, their body language.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Wazza said:


> I think TAM can be a little over the top on opposite sex friendships. But then we have all been burned.



I "liked" this.... not because I've been burned (at least, not in the way that you are referring) but because, yes, I do believe that TAM is a lot over the top with regard to opposite sex friendships. The problem is not with opposite sex friendships, the problem lies when those "friendships" become "inappropriate relationships." Of course, once you've crossed that line, you have to have extremely well established boundaries and your interactions with OSF's must be unquestionably above board. 

But, no, I will not for the "sake of TAM," discontinue my friendly chats with the man who bags my groceries, or the retired man next door if I happen to see him when I'm getting the mail or bringing in the garbage cans. I won't be cold and aloof to the veterinarian when I take my dog in for his checkups. I won't stand back with my arms crossed, to avoid embracing the husband of my best friend as he buries his only child, his 20 y/o son. There are many things that I won't stop doing. 

I have, for the sake of my husband, whom I love with all of my heart, become much more conscious of my words and actions. I have much clearer boundaries and I make sure that the words that I speak and that my body language is unquestionably appropriate so that it is never misconstrued or left up to interpretation. I've toned down my "friendliness" a great deal. I'm a natural born flirt. It isn't specific to men. I'll talk to men, women, children, animals, plants....... old veterans, oh forget about it..... I'm all over them. If I see an elderly veteran sitting alone at a restaurant, it's everything I can do to stop myself from asking him to join us. My father and his 5 brothers served a combined total of 122 years in the Army.... serving in World War II, Korea and Vietnam. My cousin's husband is a full bird Colonel, currently serving in Afghanistan, on his 4th tour of duty. The first time I met him I had never been so starstruck in my entire life. No celebrity, musician or athlete impresses me the way our men and women in uniform do. Okay, now I'm thread jacking my own post.... LOL 

Again, I'm an extremely sociable person, but my responsibilities and obligations in life have kept me much more isolated than what was good for my soul. My infidelity had absolutely nothing to do with me being friendly, flirty or chatty. Absolutely nothing. But, for the sake of my husband, my children and myself, I now make sure that, although, "I know" what my boundaries are, that nothing that I say or do can be misinterpreted by anyone else. 

I will not cease to be me. I have not stopped living, breathing, thinking, feeling, hurting, wanting, needing or striving for happiness in life. I read on another thread last night, (I've got to stop doing that to myself) that it doesn't matter how cheaters feel. It doesn't matter what they say, do, think or feel. It doesn't matter if they are sad. They do not matter. They do not count. Well, I beg to differ. I do matter. I do count. If the gentlemen who wrote that truly feels that way, if he truly lacks the ability or desire to feel any compassion for another human being because they have been unfaithful, at some point in their life, then I think that might provide some insight into his current state of unhappiness. If compassion were reserved only for those who had led sinless lives.......................


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## hopefulgirl

I've heard my WS say "Thank you Dear" a lot with waitresses and salesclerks and it never bothered me before; I thought it was a southern thing (I'm not from the south but he is - we're talking U.S. for those who are not from the States). 

I always found it kind of nice when salesclerks and waitresses call ME "Hon" - it doesn't happen a lot where I'm from, but when I travel I think it breaks down barriers and I think that's a good thing. I never thought of it as a flirty thing, because these folks use it with both men and women, and I thought my WS uses "Dear" with them because that's just how you talk with people who do these jobs. I've even done it myself a few times, after hearing it so much - though I guess I feel more comfortable saying it to older ladies, now that I think of it.


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## Wazza

EI said:


> I read on another thread last night, (I've got to stop doing that to myself) that it doesn't matter how cheaters feel. It doesn't matter what they say, do, think or feel. It doesn't matter if they are sad. They do not matter. They do not count. Well, I beg to differ. I do matter. I do count. If the gentlemen who wrote that truly feels that way, if he truly lacks the ability or desire to feel any compassion for another human being because they have been unfaithful, at some point in their life, then I think that might provide some insight into his current state of unhappiness. If compassion were reserved only for those who had led sinless lives.......................


Part of reconciliation for me was realising I could spend the rest of my life punishing Mrs Wazza for what she had done, or I could focus on repairing things. Frankly if all I have left is punishing her, I think I may as well divorce.


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## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> Rookie, how is sweetie doing? I was just loving on my dog and I thought to myself. Man, I could never find another dog like her. Well then I thought about Sweetie. I hope she's feeling better. I'm sure she has moments where she cries. Tell her I'm thinking of her and wanna give her a hug. Give her a hug for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry I'm late getting back. I had to make a few donuts at work so I was a little busy. Sweetie is doing much better . She still cries but she has so many other things to think about, that it's been good for her to focus on them. I will be sure to tell her that you are thinking about her and she will probably PM you to thank you herself.


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## Mrs_Mathias

daisygirl 41 said:


> I've been absent a few days, just getting my head in a better place. So just did a whole lot of reading.
> 
> Margrace - Thankyou for you pm. I had a hell of a week last week but I'm feeling a lot better now. I am going to the doctors today as I've noticed a pattern forming. I have a severe week of anxiety and depression the week leading up to my period. I felt almost catatonic on Friday! Can't go on like this. So lets see what the doc has to say.
> I'm feeling much more positive now.
> 
> Mr and Mrs M: The conversation to the student was inappropriate, because he is a student. If Mrs M had been having the conversation with a female friend it would have been fine.
> I feel the student was being over friendly and this could possibly be dangerous ground. However I do not think Mrs M can see (or saw) this and I truly believe her interactions were innocent.
> 
> Mrs M I understand the student wasn't on the NC list, but can you now see that this interaction was inappropriate? Can you see that having close personal friendships with students is not healthy? You should be self regulating now and should understand why this is a no no. You need to be strong Mrs M and impose those boundaries yourself. If you don't think friendships with students are inappropriate then this needs to be discussed
> 
> As others have said, do you and Mr M have any mutual friends or colleagues? Do you have nobody female you can talk to?
> I have 3 close friends. We socialise as couples and individuals. They all now about Hs A. I needed them and wouldn't have got through this without them.
> None of them judge him, they all still love him and have welcomed him back with open arms. That's because nobody has the perfect marriage, perfect life and if we share with others, they will share with us and we can help each other. On the other hand my H has told nobody and has never confided in anyone. But to me, that's not healthy.
> 
> Mr M - from reading Mrs Ms posts I do believe her to be truly sorry and remorseful for her actions. I believe she loves you and wants a future with you. The student friendship thing has got to stop though!
> Mrs M - You are pregnant, this is the ideal time to make appropriate friendships. Go to baby class, yoga, playgroup. Join a walking club or book club. Talk to women, be approachable, make some friends. I'm not the most outgoing of people but it can be done. If that's not for you, then you have us and you have Mr M. Just stop talking to the students! (If you haven't already)
> 
> I wanted to ask you to Mrs M, how is the pregnancy progressing? How many weeks are you now? There is a lot of research that shows that when a mother is anxious or trouble while pregnant this passes on to the baby. I am a believer of this notion. Yoga is a wonderful thing for relieving stress and anxiety and will assist you in connecting and relaxing with your baby. Just a thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the comments, DG. I'm sorry you had such a rough week, and I hope things can pick up for you.

I am NOT talking to any current students. Nor have I in the past. Any personal conversations (on my end) were always with former students. Many current students come to me for advice on personal matters. I understand that is a gray area, perhaps once a student, always a student. But my experience collegiately was always that one or two teachers transcended that environment and became lifelong contacts and even friends. My other closest female friends live a minimum of 2 hours away, and as I mentioned, they are all busy with jobs, kids, and families of their own. It is difficult to even find time to talk on the phone when it comes down to it.

Regarding taking opportunities to meet new people, I have tried to explain our circumstances before, but I'll offer it again. We teach in a town with a population of 900. No, that's not a typo. If you've never encountered a rural community, picture 2 gas stations, a bar, and two churches. One main paved road, no stoplights. We live in a town of maybe 4,000. There are a few more businesses/community offerings there. We are at least 50 miles from the next largest city of 70,000, and 1 1/2 hours to anything bigger than that. It is VERY rural. I am a member of the local La Leche League. They meet once a month on Thursday mornings while I work. I used to be a member of a local music club, which is primarily populated by women over 65. They also meet once a month, in the evenings, but I gave that up this past fall when I chose to spend more time at home with my family. There are 2 other moms groups that I know of in the vicinity, and both are affiliated with churches, and both do all their activities during the work day. The library offers a toddler reading group, also during the work day. There are just no opportunities for working moms in this environment.

I used to do yoga at the college once a week, but they stopped offering that this year. The instructor chose to work in a different community, and the school opted not to replace her. I will be 20 weeks along on Tuesday. I am very aware of the effects of stress on an unborn baby, I spent one of my bad days crying in bed reading about all the higher rates of birth defects and personality disorders. I am doing my best to get through this and create a level physical environment for this child. But short of attempting to pretend I wasn't a cheating wh0re, rugsweeping, and just compartmentalizing it all away, I don't know what else to do to manage the situation. I am going to individual therapy. I am not comfortable taking meds while pregnant, and most are not allowed, period. I go to the gym and work out when I have the time/energy. I suppose I could get a yoga video and attempt to do some home practice, but in reality, my 3 year old essentially wants nothing more than to climb over me 100% of the time I am around I can't see him allowing me a window of time to do that, and as soon as he goes to bed, I spend that quiet time with Matt.

I really am and have looked to find more outlets here. I don't want to be so isolated and alone, but I do want to make sure that every ounce of my energy and focus is spent on my family when I don't have to be at work. We have no family within 120 miles, so every time we want to do anything together we have to find and pay a babysitter. It's difficult.


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## Rookie4

Ok, this is my take on this issue. 
Matt, you were right to bring this to the R thread. Where you can find support and advice on how to deal wth this thorny problem. but you must also communicate your concerns to MM, as well, and make sure that she both knows, understands, and agrees with the boundaries that you set. You really do need to take charge of this situation .
MM, I don't see what is so hard to understand about this? You are an adult, right? You are a teacher , right? So how could you, in any way , think that talking to any male student about your marriage (or any aspect of your personal life) is appropriate? It most decidely is NOT!! Lamenting about your lack of adult friends is no excuse for having an inappropriate friendship with somebody that you have authority over. So you are havng a hard time finding appropriate friendships , so that excuses having inappropriate ones? I am not a teacher, but have been an instructor, manager, supervisor, and Military Officer , and can tell that you have very serious issues about the division between personal and professional conduct. You need to start re-assessing your professional conduct , IMMEDIATELY. You can have NO personal contact with any male student,or past student. NONE!! Regardless of the content of these messages, the messages , OF THEMSELVES, are inappropriate. 
So lets set the boundaries, OK? You are to have NC with any human being that had any knowledge of the affairs. NO EXCEPTIONS. If any of these people contact you, you are to inform Matt , immediately (I mean within minutes) and to also inform these people that you will NOT discus your personal life with them ......... ever.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, this is my take on this issue.
> Matt, you were right to bring this to the R thread. Where you can find support and advice on how to deal wth this thorny problem. but you must also communicate your concerns to MM, as well, and make sure that she both knows, understands, and agrees with the boundaries that you set. You really do need to take charge of this situation .
> MM, I don't see what is so hard to understand about this? You are an adult, right? You are a teacher , right? So how could you, in any way , think that talking to any male student about your marriage (or any aspect of your personal life) is appropriate? It most decidely is NOT!! Lamenting about your lack of adult friends is no excuse for having an inappropriate friendship with somebody that you have authority over. So you are havng a hard time finding appropriate friendships , so that excuses having inappropriate ones? I am not a teacher, but have been an instructor, manager, supervisor, and Military Officer , and can tell that you have very serious issues about the division between personal and professional conduct. You need to start re-assessing your professional conduct , IMMEDIATELY. You can have NO personal contact with any male student,or past student. NONE!! Regardless of the content of these messages, the messages , OF THEMSELVES, are inappropriate.
> So lets set the boundaries, OK? You are to have NC with any human being that had any knowledge of the affairs. NO EXCEPTIONS. If any of these people contact you, you are to inform Matt , immediately (I mean within minutes) and to also inform these people that you will NOT discus your personal life with them ......... ever.


One last time... I am NOT talking to anyone that I have authority over. Period. IF it is Matt's wish, I will discontinue ALL contact with any FORMER students. I am also NOT talking to anyone that in ANY way enabled the affair or had knowledge of it while it was ongoing. I agree and acknowledge my conversation with TSB was a substantial lapse in judgement and the boundaries I have set. I will not do that again. I am not 'excusing' any inappropriate friendships by my lack of ability to find appropriate ones. I will continue to focus on eliminating my need for external support/validation.

ETA: And any boundaries regarding former students, male associates, female associates, and social interactions in general will be decided by my HUSBAND and myself. Period. We have to find what works for us, and it may be different than what works for others. Thank you all for the input. You have given us much to think about as we discuss these expectations.


----------



## warlock07

Please stop using the word cheating wh0re repeatedly.


----------



## Rookie4

MM, we ALL need support, all of us. The trick is to know when that source of support is appropriate or not. What could possibly lead you to believe that a former male student , who has never been married, could provide that support? You have stated that you have some couples that you and Matt are friendly with, this is where I would start looking.
I sincerly think that you have crossed the threshold between teacher and friend and you, yourself, can see what has become of it. Being friendly, caring, and supportive isn't the same as a friendship between equals. When your students begin to think of themselves as your equal, then they begin to think of you as a woman , not an instructor. You have allowed this to happen.


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## CantSitStill

Well it's ok Mrs. M the good thing is you learned from this. It was lack of communication between you and your husband. Yes a bad choice to talk to this guy but now you realize how it can be a danger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

We are all still learning
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

What CSS says is true. Nobody ever learns how to reconcile before they need to. In a sense, we are all newbys. My suggestions aren't any hard and fast rules, but more like guidelines.


----------



## Almostrecovered

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today-20.html#post1662360


----------



## EI

Almostrecovered said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today-20.html#post1662360


Happy 15th Anniversary, AR! Thank you for demonstrating the tenacity and the fortitude that's an essential part of a successful reconciliation for a BS....... and for sticking around TAM as an advisor and inspiration for those who are attempting to follow in your footsteps.


----------



## jh52

There is no guide book on getting through life -- either in good times or in bad (especially needed then) so we need to take things one day at a time -- realize that not everything is black and whitem - and learn everyday how to become better people, spouses, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, friends, etc.


----------



## Almostrecovered

jh52 said:


> There is no guide book on getting through life


guess I'll just throw this out...


----------



## Robsia

^That the same book that tells women they have to marry their rapists?

Think I'll pass, thanks.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I dunno, I never read it


----------



## CantSitStill

AR thanks for sharing that thread, it gives me positive hope 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I'm tired!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> *I don't want to be so isolated and alone, *but I do want to make sure that every ounce of my energy and focus is spent on my family when I don't have to be at work. We have no family within 120 miles, so every time we want to do anything together we have to find and pay a babysitter. *It's difficult.*


If former WS's were "allowed" to be _completely_ honest on TAM (which they are not ) they (I) would tell you that being isolated and alone for extended periods of time, when there is little or no hope of the situation changing, is one of the greatest risk factors in becoming vulnerable to all kinds of potential unpleasantries. Since "they" are not allowed to be so forthcoming..... I will. 



Rookie4 said:


> *Lamenting about your lack of adult friends is no excuse for having an inappropriate friendship* with somebody that you have authority over. So you are having a hard time finding appropriate friendships , so that excuses having inappropriate ones?.....


Rookie, I don't believe that Mrs. M., was lamenting anything.... She is simply stating the facts with regard to her unfortunate and obvious lack of an appropriate and healthy support system. She's using this thread as a sounding board to share the challenges that she's facing as she's trying to deal with an extremely difficult situation. I, honestly, believe that she is sharing these facts with us in the hope that we may collectively offer some functional insight as to how she might cope within her limits. Remember, the old saying, "If you are not a part of the solution............" Y'all know the rest...... 



Rookie4 said:


> *So lets set the boundaries, OK? You are to have NC with any human being that had any knowledge of the affairs. NO EXCEPTIONS. * If any of these people contact you, you are to inform Matt , immediately (I mean within minutes) and to also inform these people that you will NOT discus your personal life with them ......... ever.


*Noooooo...................,* there is no "let's" set the boundaries....... There should be an acknowledgement and an understanding that Mr and Mrs. M. need to discuss and agree on what boundaries they think should be in place within their marriage. See Mrs. M.'s response below (the part I bolded.).... And, *IF* you embrace the TAM doctrine of "exposure" to anyone and everyone from the nurse who helped deliver her to the kid who delivers her newspaper, then having no contact with ANY human being who has knowledge of the affair, leaves her completely alone, with virtually no support, muttering to her pets and plants....... See my above comments on prolonged isolation. I know that I am being a little over the top, here, but I violated my own TAM boundaries, by reading certain "triggery" threads, last night and I'm a little worked up. Former WS's are human beings who are guilty of having made some extremely selfish and devastatingly poor choices in their lifetimes. For this reason, I believe, that they should be subjected to a lifetime of judgement, character assassination, house arrest... with ankle bracelet, isolation, and a diet of only stale bread and warm water...... and perhaps, martial law....... Those _who deem themselves_ as not being guilty of any prior sin, character flaw or poor choices of their own should feel free to appoint themselves as the enforcers of said rules!  





Mrs_Mathias said:


> One last time... I am NOT talking to anyone that I have authority over. Period. IF it is Matt's wish, I will discontinue ALL contact with any FORMER students...... I agree and acknowledge my conversation with TSB was a substantial lapse in judgement and the boundaries I have set. I will not do that again. I am not 'excusing' any inappropriate friendships by my lack of ability to find appropriate ones. *I will continue to focus on eliminating my need for external support/validation.
> *
> ETA: *And any boundaries regarding former students, male associates, female associates, and social interactions in general will be decided by my HUSBAND and myself. Period. *We have to find what works for us, and it may be different than what works for others. Thank you all for the input. You have given us much to think about as we discuss these expectations.


Every. single. living. breathing. human. being. needs some external support and validation. If those needs are not being met where and by whom they should be, then said human being is left to their own recourse. With limited resources it can be a very vulnerable position to be in. 




warlock07 said:


> Please stop using the word cheating wh0re repeatedly.


:iagree:



jh52 said:


> There is no guide book on getting through life -- either in good times or in bad (especially needed then) so we need to take things one day at a time -- realize that not everything is black and white - and learn everyday how to become better people, spouses, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, friends, etc.


:iagree:



B1...... YOU are my husband, my amazing lover, the father of my children, my best friend, my hero.... Thank you so much for loving me. Thank you so much for your strength, your understanding, your compassion, your humility, your generosity..... Thank you for "us." It's you and me against the world, Baby! We're unbreakable, now!


----------



## BK23

EI said:


> you embrace the TAM doctrine of "exposure" to anyone and everyone from the nurse who helped deliver her to the kid who delivers her newspaper, then having no contact with ANY human being who has knowledge of the affair, leaves her completely alone, with virtually no support, muttering to her pets and plants.......


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Rookie was advocating for no contact with people who knew about the affair while it was happening, and tacitly supported it by not informing Matt. Anyway, that was my reading, and I think it's reasonable to demand no contact with those people. If your reading of it is accurate, EI, then I agree with you.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> MM, we ALL need support, all of us. The trick is to know when that source of support is appropriate or not. What could possibly lead you to believe that a former male student , who has never been married, could provide that support? You have stated that you have some couples that you and Matt are friendly with, this is where I would start looking.
> I sincerly think that you have crossed the threshold between teacher and friend and you, yourself, can see what has become of it. Being friendly, caring, and supportive isn't the same as a friendship between equals. When your students begin to think of themselves as your equal, then they begin to think of you as a woman , not an instructor. You have allowed this to happen.


Rookie, may I ask if you also believe that Matt should cease "friendly" contact with all female former and current students?


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## bfree

BK23 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Rookie was advocating for no contact with people who knew about the affair while it was happening, and tacitly supported it by not informing Matt. Anyway, that was my reading, and I think it's reasonable to demand no contact with those people. If your reading of it is accurate, EI, then I agree with you.


Although there are times when people know of an affair and do not condone it. Those people should not be cut out because by condemning the affair they have proven to be friends of the marriage...yes? Knowledge is not always the determining factor.


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## EI

BK23 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Rookie was advocating for no contact with people who knew about the affair while it was happening, and tacitly supported it by not informing Matt. Anyway, that was my reading, and I think it's reasonable to demand no contact with those people. If your reading of it is accurate, EI, then I agree with you.


You may very well be correct. If so, I absolutely agree with NC with those who were "supporters" during the affair. But, I was specifically quoting from Rookie's exact quote. My point being that WS's receive a great deal of "conflicting" instructions from the "powers that be" on TAM. 

Welcome to the "R thread," BK23. I'm liking your input.


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## TCSRedhead

For us, we had to have conversations about what each of us was or was not comfortable with in the relationship. 

C&B is a bit of a rescuer and one of those guys who women like to call to pour out their hearts. For me, I wanted him to draw limits on how much time and effort he put in to that since it seemed like more time than he spent with me. I also explained I wasn't comfortable with them talking about their sex lives (one woman was becoming explicit in how bad hers was). 

For him, he made it very clear that he didn't like the sexual flirting and tone that I very often slip in to with men so I've toned that way the heck back. I am also now careful to keep work conversations very professional and not lead in to what could be misconstrued. 

We also both realized that we needed to be a united front at my work events. After a few years with this company, he stopped coming with me to events and then I stopped even asking if he wanted to go (he didn't). The assumption from everyone was that we were having issues and it left our marriage very vulnerable. 

Now, we attend, we show affection, and we leave together.


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## BK23

bfree said:


> Although there are times when people know of an affair and do not condone it. Those people should not be cut out because by condemning the affair they have proven to be friends of the marriage...yes? Knowledge is not always the determining factor.


I have a feeling that my thinking on this issue is less nuanced than yours. My view is, if you know about the affair, while it is happening, and you do not warn the BS, then you are no friend of the BS or the relationship. Even if you "did not approve," if your disapproval wasn't strong enough to reach out to the BS, then, honestly, I don't think you should be allowed to remain in contact with a couple attempting R. This is probably a bit too black and white, but I'm afraid my thinking in this area tends to be as such.


----------



## bfree

BK23 said:


> I have a feeling that my thinking on this issue is less nuanced than yours. My view is, if you know about the affair, while it is happening, and you do not warn the BS, then you are no friend of the BS or the relationship. Even if you "did not approve," if your disapproval wasn't strong enough to reach out to the BS, then, honestly, I don't think you should be allowed to remain in contact with a couple attempting R. This is probably a bit too black and white, but I'm afraid my thinking in this area tends to be as such.


I understand what you're saying but allow me to pose a question. If you knew someone was having an affair and did not know their spouse would you warn him/her? How exactly would that go? You, a perfect stranger with no proof going up to a man or a woman and saying "your husband/wife is cheating on you." I would suspect if it was a man you would be counting how many teeth you need to pick up off the floor. If you were telling a woman I predict she would be pulling out her cell phone and dialing 911 before you were able to finish. See therein lies the rub. I would love the world to be black and white. It would certainly make things so much easier. But in that type of world a cheater would always be a cheater and a betrayed spouse would never heal from a betrayal. Life isn't black and white. Life is actually made up of endless shades of grey. Whether that is bad or good is up to interpretation.


----------



## BK23

bfree said:


> I understand what you're saying but allow me to pose a question. If you knew someone was having an affair and did not know their spouse would you warn him/her? How exactly would that go? You, a perfect stranger with no proof going up to a man or a woman and saying "your husband/wife is cheating on you." I would suspect if it was a man you would be counting how many teeth you need to pick up off the floor. If you were telling a woman I predict she would be pulling out her cell phone and dialing 911 before you were able to finish. See therein lies the rub. I would love the world to be black and white. It would certainly make things so much easier. But in that type of world a cheater would always be a cheater and a betrayed spouse would never heal from a betrayal. Life isn't black and white. Life is actually made up of endless shades of grey. Whether that is bad or good is up to interpretation.


Agreed. I guess I was thinking more specifically of the usual situation where the person with knowledge is a friend of the couple or of the WS. I agree that there's no duty to reach out to a BS you don't know.


----------



## CantSitStill

I just found it funny that you said something about counting teeth lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

EI said:


> If former WS's were "allowed" to be _completely_ honest on TAM (which they are not ) they (I) would tell you that being isolated and alone for extended periods of time, when there is little or no hope of the situation changing, is one of the greatest risk factors in becoming vulnerable to all kinds of potential unpleasantries. Since "they" are not allowed to be so forthcoming..... I will.
> I feel the same about Calvin...good post EI. Short and sweet.
> 
> 
> Rookie, I don't believe that Mrs. M., was lamenting anything.... She is simply stating the facts with regard to her unfortunate and obvious lack of an appropriate and healthy support system. She's using this thread as a sounding board to share the challenges that she's facing as she's trying to deal with an extremely difficult situation. I, honestly, believe that she is sharing these facts with us in the hope that we may collectively offer some functional insight as to how she might cope within her limits. Remember, the old saying, "If you are not a part of the solution............" Y'all know the rest......
> 
> 
> 
> *Noooooo...................,* there is no "let's" set the boundaries....... There should be an acknowledgement and an understanding that Mr and Mrs. M. need to discuss and agree on what boundaries they think should be in place within their marriage. See Mrs. M.'s response below (the part I bolded.).... And, *IF* you embrace the TAM doctrine of "exposure" to anyone and everyone from the nurse who helped deliver her to the kid who delivers her newspaper, then having no contact with ANY human being who has knowledge of the affair, leaves her completely alone, with virtually no support, muttering to her pets and plants....... See my above comments on prolonged isolation. I know that I am being a little over the top, here, but I violated my own TAM boundaries, by reading certain "triggery" threads, last night and I'm a little worked up. Former WS's are human beings who are guilty of having made some extremely selfish and devastatingly poor choices in their lifetimes. For this reason, I believe, that they should be subjected to a lifetime of judgement, character assassination, house arrest... with ankle bracelet, isolation, and a diet of only stale bread and warm water...... and perhaps, martial law....... Those _who deem themselves_ as not being guilty of any prior sin, character flaw or poor choices of their own should feel free to appoint themselves as the enforcers of said rules!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every. single. living. breathing. human. being. needs some external support and validation. If those needs are not being met where and by whom they should be, then said human being is left to their own recourse. With limited resources it can be a very vulnerable position to be in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> B1...... YOU are my husband, my amazing lover, the father of my children, my best friend, my hero.... Thank you so much for loving me. Thank you so much for your strength, your understanding, your compassion, your humility, your generosity..... Thank you for "us." It's you and me against the world, Baby! We're unbreakable, now!


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

My reply didn't work..I feel the same way about Calvin EI good post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_was talking about the last paragraph... was sweet


----------



## CantSitStill

Lol I see I have a lot to learn on this phone. Need to pull the right 
Part to reply to...oy I'm so blonde..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I just found it funny that you said something about counting teeth lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Although there are times when people know of an affair and do not condone it. Those people should not be cut out because by condemning the affair they have proven to be friends of the marriage...yes? Knowledge is not always the determining factor.


CSS's friend gets to me,she comments on some of my fb post.
I knew that girl for 20 years and to me she condoned the affair,I saw her yucking it up on fb withh CSS and toothless.
I was never contacted by her,she didn't start speaking up til her radar started picking up that the POS was lying and not what he appeared to be at all.
Even then she didn't contact me,in the begging never told CSS to knock it off and work on your marriage.
I stand corrected,I "thought" I knew her for over 20 years.
I don't really ever want to hear from her again.
Hope I'm making sense,LOT of overtime this week.Exhausted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

She did tell me to knock it off tword the end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Calvin and her worked it out anyway. She believed all the bad things I said about Calvin. Oh well we don't really talk anymore anyway .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin and her worked it out anyway. She believed all the bad things I said about Calvin. Oh well we don't really talk anymore anyway .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not really worked out.I defended this girl a few times years ago and always respected her.
She never contacted me or told CSS to knock it off til about two months later of her talking to the POS.
The three of them went to hs together maybe that's why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'm just going to ignore her and let it all die out.
Screw it,CSS doesn't want this brought up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> Please stop using the word cheating wh0re repeatedly.


Decided I needed to comment on this, not just like it.

MrsM, I don't think you are a cheating wh0re. It hurts to read you describing yourself thus.

While I have never met you, what I know about you from the internet makes me believe you are a smart, caring, energetic, creative and attractive person, who did a very wrong thing because there was an aspect of relationships you didn't get. 

The conversation with TSB reinforces that view. Your sense of openness with guys like this is a danger. It's exacerbated by the fact that, based on the information I have, you are very physically attractive. You just have to accept that some guys will be inspired by that combination to bed you, and your past history suggests you don't always see it coming. So you need to draw firmer boundaries, and draw them further back from the danger zone. 

If your behaviour during the affair was your normal modus operandi, If your only thought now was how you could lull Matt into a false sense of security so you could cheat again....then I would call you a cheating wh0re. But I don't think that is going on in your head. There are marriages dissected on TAM where one or the other party IS like that. You aren't. 

Work on yourself. Atone for your wrong. But don't hate yourself. And celebrate the good in you too. You had the crap kicked out of you when you first came on TAM, but let's compliment your achievements too.


----------



## ChangingMe

Wazza said:


> Decided I needed to comment on this, not just like it.
> 
> MrsM, I don't think you are a cheating wh0re. It hurts to read you describing yourself thus.
> 
> While I have never met you, what I know about you from the internet makes me believe you are a smart, caring, energetic, creative and attractive person, who did a very wrong thing because there was an aspect of relationships you didn't get.
> 
> The conversation with TSB reinforces that view. Your sense of openness with guys like this is a danger. It's exacerbated by the fact that, based on the information I have, you are very physically attractive. You just have to accept that some guys will be inspired by that combination to bed you, and your past history suggests you don't always see it coming. So you need to draw firmer boundaries, and draw them further back from the danger zone.
> 
> If your behaviour during the affair was your normal modus operandi, If your only thought now was how you could lull Matt into a false sense of security so you could cheat again....then I would call you a cheating wh0re. But I don't think that is going on in your head. There are marriages dissected on TAM where one or the other party IS like that. You aren't.
> 
> Work on yourself. Atone for your wrong. But don't hate yourself. And celebrate the good in you too. You had the crap kicked out of you when you first came on TAM, but let's compliment your achievements too.


Great post, Wazza. If I were MrsM, this would leave me tears.


----------



## EI

BK23 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Rookie was advocating for no contact with people who knew about the affair *while it was happening,* and tacitly supported it by not informing Matt. Anyway, that was my reading, and I think it's reasonable to demand no contact with those people. If your reading of it is accurate, EI, then I agree with you.



Geeeez, I just re-read my post, then your post, and realized my error..... I hate it when that happens....  Sooooo, I concede to Rookie on THAT point...... But, just that one!  LOL

Sorry, Rookie....... :slap:


----------



## EI

Wazza said:


> While I have never met you, what I know about you from the internet makes me believe you are a smart, caring, energetic, creative and attractive person, who did a very wrong thing because there was an aspect of relationships you didn't get.
> 
> Work on yourself. Atone for your wrong. But don't hate yourself. And celebrate the good in you too. You had the crap kicked out of you when you first came on TAM, but let's compliment your achievements too.


Wazza, have I told you how delighted I am that you've begun dropping by the "R" Thread, again? I hope you take your shoes off, get comfortable and decide to stay awhile.


----------



## cpacan

jupiter13 said:


> I have some questions for you! I am a romantic at heart. I always dreamed of the prefect marriage my knight in shinning armor, my one and only.
> 1. I took his ring, the ring I put on his finger (which even though I have been married before I never put a ring on a mans finger.) So it means so much more to me symbolically. The depth of my commitment to this marriage was very intense. Entering into this fully aware of all the ramifications this document held. :rules:I don't wear the one he bought for me, I do wear the one I bought while mine was in repair. The diamond no longer sparkles even in the sun. It is like, it knows it's been broken. I can't wear it without crying. So do I use these rings to get new ones when or if we renew vows? Do I keep them forever hidden in a box, bottom drawer? Sadder still is I really love my ring but I couldn't even have another one like it. It represents to much pain, loss, the ultimate betrayal.
> 2. I will never be his one and only. I will never be able to call him my faithful loving husband. What do I call him? Hey You? I am no longer feeling special. How can I feel special to someone that can disrespects me like this? He did say I was special cause he choose me. Yeah? Well? Look what else you choose. Do you ever get that feeling back that you are special that this relationship is special? I don't know if this is mean or not but I have always signed my cards to him "Your ever Faithful Loving Wife" I debated changing that but I did Not! I am privileged and I'm proud of me that I "can" say those words. I'm thinking I shouldn't because it is like I'm rubbing his nose in it but why should I change what I've written for years. Or should I?
> 3. The big one trust, I understand it will take time how long who knows. I do trust him in certain areas in our life, in our world and have no problem there. He wants me to trust him with my feelings, my thoughts, my wants. I can't! I've exposed more here about my feelings than I have shared actually with him. I think? Some things I know I shouldn't say or share because they are hurtful. Then there are the things I want to say that are very nasty hurtful and biting my lip does not release the anger behind my words. I just can't see myself ever trusting him 110% even 100% again. It would take pages to explain why I don't trust anyone, everyone is kept an arm length away. Except back to the beginning I did trust him 110%+ that is why I said yes. He was that special to me. I'm not sure what to do with this just let more time go by and see where it goes? He has done a couple things that have me questioning my trust level. I know everyone has trust issues. Basically, this constant worry about the other shoe dropping or whats next, almost to the point of paranoia helps create the anxiety in me which lead to panic attacks etc etc.... I'm trying to get out of the house. Do I need to have trust in him, my home or who what? I'm stuck on this. How do you handle the day to day levels of trust with your partner?
> Here I sit writing and reading on TAM when my paperwork is piled so high it is disgusting.
> Thank you for allowing me to ask my silly questions and post some real dumb answers myself. Enjoy all of you.:bounce:


Sorry for reiterating on this post - I can't seem to keep up with the thread anymore. Sorry folks 

You seem to have had a ride on the coaster with this post, and I understand that perfectly. I don't wear my ring either, haven't done so since D-day 2 years ago.

It's funny, because it is my wife who claims to be the romantic one of us, but obviously the pledge meant a lot more ti me than to her. Yet, she's the one to ask from time to time, if I am going to wear it again. It may seem that I don't wear it just to punish her. Maybe there's some truth to that, I don't know, I have tried but it just didn't feel right. 
I have promised myself that I'll wear it if she some day chooses to show me an effort to change her core beliefs and values - basically that her character is changing to be something I can trust.

Which leads me to your questions about trust. Actually it's pretty easy (hah), because you get to decide yourself what you want to trust in, what you want to believe and what not. I once read in a book, wise words I think, that while after being betrayed you believe the world to be untrustworthy, it is in fact very much trustworthy. Why do I think so? Because you can trust the world to change, you can trust that there may be millions of perceptions about one incident and therefore millions of versions of reality. And you can also trust your husband to be capable of cheating on you given conditions and his actual state of mind.

So how does one cope with these facts of life? I tell myself each day, that whatever happens, I'm going to be OK. If she decides to love me and remain faithfull today, good. If she chooses differently, I'm capable of living on my own, and I'm also attractive enough to find a replacement, if I decide to do so, which is also good.

Also, you can program yourself to make healthy and positive choices on a daily basis. Ask yourself this each day (I do): Do I want this to be a good day or a bad day? (it works most of the time). If I choose to have a good day, I tune in on all positvie things, my kids, the trees around me, the weather (even rain is beautiful if you look for it), the dark humor outbursts from my colleagues, my health etc. etc. - you get the picture. And usually the day turns out to be a good one. I might get distracted by triggers once in a while, but as time has gone by, I have become much better to handle them and shift focus to positive things, myself and my improvements.

I don't know if all this makes any sense at all, and it may not be very reconciliation-like, but it works for me, mostly. And that's the most important thing to me.


----------



## EI

Robsia said:


> Most of the good stuff in the Bible, anyone with half an ounce of moral fibre would realise anyway.
> 
> For every 'good' verse you quote me, I can quote you an evil one. Personally I'm not sure this thread is the place for it.


This subject has been addressed on this thread, but since it's quite a lengthy thread, I'll repeat what has already been stated. Everyone is welcomed and encouraged to post here. The prevailing theme is that individuals can share their stories, whether they are BS's or WS's, and expect to be treated with common courtesy. Everyone's contributions are based on their own personal experiences. For Mr. Blunt, and many others of us, Christianity, therefore scripture, plays a large part in our lives and in our reconciliations. There are also many valuable contributors on this thread of various other faiths, and many who are Atheists. 

All our welcomed to share their personal experience and what has and what has not worked for them. Everyone has the ability to use their own discernment in how they wish to use that information.


----------



## SomedayDig

Okay...here's my take.

Robsia, for MOST the Christian Faith and the Bible comfort them. Coming here and espousing the "evils" of the Bible or any religion is futile. Your experience in whatever church trumps no one's pure LOVE of God, Jesus, Allah, Boghadiva, or a tree.

MrBlunt quite often quotes Biblical verse because it comforts MOST people in this thread. My suggestion is that if you don't like it, then don't comment about it. Or put MrB and anyone else who quotes the stuff on "Ignore".


----------



## SomedayDig

EI said:


> This subject has been addressed on this thread, but since it's quite a lengthy thread, I'll repeat what has already been stated. Everyone is welcomed and encouraged to post here. The prevailing theme is that individuals can share their stories, whether they are BS's or WS's, and expect to be treated with common courtesy. Everyone's contributions are based on their own personal experiences. For Mr. Blunt, and many others of us, Christianity, therefore scripture, plays a large part in our lives and in our reconciliations. There are also many valuable contributors on this thread of various other faiths, and many who are Atheists.
> 
> All our welcomed to share their personal experience and what has and what has not worked for them. Everyone has the ability to use their own discernment in how they wish to use that information.


I see we posted pretty much the same thing at the same time. You worded yours a bit better I believe


----------



## Robsia

EI said:


> This subject has been addressed on this thread, but since it's quite a lengthy thread, I'll repeat what has already been stated. Everyone is welcomed and encouraged to post here. The prevailing theme is that individuals can share their stories, whether they are BS's or WS's, and expect to be treated with common courtesy. Everyone's contributions are based on their own personal experiences. For Mr. Blunt, and many others of us, Christianity, therefore scripture, plays a large part in our lives and in our reconciliations. There are also many valuable contributors on this thread of various other faiths, and many who are Atheists.
> 
> All our welcomed to share their personal experience and what has and what has not worked for them. Everyone has the ability to use their own discernment in how they wish to use that information.


Well, that's reassuring. Thank you.


----------



## cpacan

The present religous discussion is in fact a perfect illustration of my point in my previous post.

I don't have any religous beliefs whatsoever, but still I think of myself as a decent human being. Maybe I just follow my own script

Thing is, I'm just about to finish a book called "Changes That Heal" by Henry Cloud. It is stuffed with biblical quotes, which from time to time can be pretty annoying for someone like me, but i'll tell you... it's a fantastic book! I choose to extract the essence of the book, which fits perfectly with the way I want to think myself .

I do the exact same thing with Mr.Blunts posts, lots of references which I choose to skip, but the essence of what he's saying makes perfect sense to me, and I value his experiences and advice.

Like EI would have said, carry on (You can't use that one now, can you...)


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> The present religous discussion is in fact a perfect illustration of my point in my previous post...........
> 
> *I don't have any religous beliefs whatsoever, but still I think of myself as a decent human being. Maybe I just follow my own script.........*
> 
> .......... Like EI would have said, carry on (You can't use that one now, can you...)


The decent human being that you most certainly are has been greatly missed on this thread, lately, cpacan. You should drop by more often!


----------



## CantSitStill

Oy, Mr Blunt asked the very first time he came here if anyone minds if he talks about faith in God and about the bible..nobody had a problem with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

warlock07 said:


> Why so serious Dig ?


That's a good question, man. I think lately, I've looked at things with a different focus. Whereas I'm ordained to perform weddings and I am religious (I'll be performing a wedding 5/18 actually!!), I am not a preacher. I follow a more Unitarian thought on religion and enjoy talking with people about their own personal God. 

However, scripture brings some people peace. Peace is good. I have never liked when something that brings someone peace is knocked. And knocked to a point of calling verses of scripture "evil".

Honestly, the Motorcycle Club I ride with are probably 90% Christians and Republicans. If you don't follow Jesus and carry a gun, then you're nothing but a Liberal Socialist. Well...I'm neither and I debate Brothers from all over the world on the subject frequently on Facebook, especially when it comes to their hatred of the religion of Islam. 

Back to TAM today, when Robsia says that she doesn't think this is the thread to quote verse in, well...I think that is wrong and pointed out my reasoning. EI commented at the same time and I thought that we both were thinking along the same lines. Yet, Robsia pulls a "she said the opposite" comment out. Honestly, I think it was my commentary weeks ago about her "aspergers" that she's harbored issues with since. Therefore, anything I say is gonna be rebuked by her. Which is fine.

Good God such a long and dumb answer to your fairly simple question.

Typical of me.


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm gonna go run like 10 miles or something now. Clear myself and find my God in the sky, morning air and the smell of cows in the milk farms.

See ya's around.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I'm gonna go run like 10 miles or something now. Clear myself and find my God in the sky, morning air and the smell of cows in the milk farms.
> 
> See ya's around.


Hey Dig, hang in there, please. You're one of the good guys!


----------



## bfree

We are all good guys (and girls) on this thread. I hope no one leaves over a difference of opinion. We are all mature enough to work through whatever issues we might have.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Robsia said:


> What about subsequent people who were not here then?
> 
> I got the impression from what EI said that EVERYONE was allowed to post their opinions. I took that to include me, which is why I felt reassured. I'm pretty certain she didn't say "Everyone except Robsia".


Everyone is allowed, Robsia. But I think this thread encourages ways to present your opinions thoughtfully and considerately. (And that's a generic "your", meaning I'm speaking of everyone here and not you, Robsia, specifically.) I feel that it also is place that understands the vast amount of differences and yet commonality in our experiences.

All I always hope to see when I come here is basic respect. And understanding that we may not share the same viewpoints, but that I will not belittle yours if you will not belittle mine. 

With that being said, I am not religious. I have many of the same issues with people's interpretation of the Bible as you. BUT, those are _individual interpretations_, and I don't feel that anyone on this thread has represented to me, in my time here, the positions that you reference in your post.


> ...too many people use the Bible to justify their hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, other races/religions, etc. Because they quote Bible verses and say "It must be so because it's in here" without any understanding of the fact the world has changed and moved on since those words were written.
> 
> And THAT is why I loathe it so much.





> See, I have actually read the Bible - all of it, from cover to cover. There's some good stuff in there, but there's an awful lot that makes you shake your head and wonder.
> 
> I'm going to throw some statements out for YOU to consider.
> 
> It is possible to be a good person without being a Christian.
> 
> Not all Christians are good people.
> 
> Not everything in the Bible is right.
> 
> Most of the good stuff in the Bible, anyone with half an ounce of moral fibre would realise anyway.


Even as a non-Bible reader/Christian, I would be offended by your comments. Your comment reads as if you are insinuating that perhaps unlike the people quoting the Bible, YOU have actually read it. I know, I know... I have met plenty of people that this statement can be correctly applied to, but again, I don't believe that is the case here, and certainly not with Mr. Blunt.

I honestly believe that the people who take the time and energy to share on the R thread do believe the statements you offer about people being good without being Christian, etc. But for THEM, the Bible has been a source of comfort and support as they travel through life.

I think we can agree that not every post here is comforting or relevant to all, but they are offered with a genuine hope of helping someone. You don't want Mr. Blunt to attempt to sway your experience with Scripture, just as I'm sure he doesn't want you to attempt to sway his. Each of you has found what works for you at this point. But if I have learned one thing in my life, it is that I always have the possibility of looking at things with new eyes and new understanding. It is essential to my ability to learn and grow. So I appreciate any knowledge, care, and perspective offered to me, and also recognize my own power to select what I choose to affect me.


----------



## old timer

How bout them Braves?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Mrs M. Are things getting better with you and Mr. M?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



old timer said:


> How bout them Braves?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I don't appreciate you bringing up an organization that obviously has no appreciation for Native Americans and exploits them constantly.

Ok I'm just kidding.

Are they doing well? I haven't been following baseball yet. Still in hockey playoff mode.


----------



## CantSitStill

CM how about you and DD? Haven't heard an update in a while...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

CantSitStill said:


> Mrs M. Are things getting better with you and Mr. M?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Things have been more even this week. It was a big one for me, my spring concert opened last night and we have another performance on Saturday, so I've had a couple long days trying to make sure everything is ready. 

Matt came to the concert last night, and it was so wonderful for me to look out off the stage and see him there. But it was hard for him too. He said it really emphasized to him that you can be proud of a person for their accomplishments, but not that they are your spouse/partner. He says it was difficult to sit there are know that I'm not "his". It breaks my heart to know that I did this to us, that I caused his pain and hurt, but I am so grateful that he would share his thoughts and feelings about it with me.

We have our first phone session today at 10:30 with Dr. Harley. We are both interested to see how this will go, and nervous too, I think.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Things have been more even this week. It was a big one for me, my spring concert opened last night and we have another performance on Saturday, so I've had a couple long days trying to make sure everything is ready.
> 
> Matt came to the concert last night, and it was so wonderful for me to look out off the stage and see him there. But it was hard for him too. He said it really emphasized to him that you can be proud of a person for their accomplishments, but not that they are your spouse/partner. He says it was difficult to sit there are know that I'm not "his". It breaks my heart to know that I did this to us, that I caused his pain and hurt, but I am so grateful that he would share his thoughts and feelings about it with me.
> 
> We have our first phone session today at 10:30 with Dr. Harley. We are both interested to see how this will go, and nervous too, I think.


Like I said in your other thread the Harleys are great. Be as open and honest as you can and have an open mind. If nothing else they will help you both work through your feelings and issues so that you can approach things with clarity and caring.


----------



## jh52

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Things have been more even this week. It was a big one for me, my spring concert opened last night and we have another performance on Saturday, so I've had a couple long days trying to make sure everything is ready.
> 
> Matt came to the concert last night, and it was so wonderful for me to look out off the stage and see him there. But it was hard for him too. He said it really emphasized to him that you can be proud of a person for their accomplishments, but not that they are your spouse/partner. He says it was difficult to sit there are know that I'm not "his". It breaks my heart to know that I did this to us, that I caused his pain and hurt, but I am so grateful that he would share his thoughts and feelings about it with me.
> 
> We have our first phone session today at 10:30 with Dr. Harley. We are both interested to see how this will go, and nervous too, I think.


Mrs M -- one piece of advice I always say is to take it --- minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day and month by month.

Can't change what happened -- it's like always looking in the rear view mirror of a car --- have to focus on what's ahead -- there are enough holes and speed bumps in the road ahead. Not saying to forget the past --- just focus on today (the present) and tomorrow when it gets here.

Take care -- have a great weekend to you and Matt.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Robsia said:


> I have not been discourteous.


I don't believe anyone is saying that you were. I'm just trying to help clarify why this type of conversation promotes strong feelings on both sides. I'm sorry if you felt I was criticizing you. I was simply trying to offer a middle viewpoint.


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh cool Mrs.M. glad to hear you're gonna talk to Dr. Harley. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

bfree said:


> I don't appreciate you bringing up an organization that obviously has no appreciation for Native Americans and exploits them constantly.
> 
> Ok I'm just kidding.
> 
> Are they doing well? I haven't been following baseball yet. Still in hockey playoff mode.


I have NO idea. Don't follow baseball. 

An attempt to change the convo away from religion. 

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Robsia said:


> What about subsequent people who were not here then?
> 
> I got the impression from what EI said that EVERYONE was allowed to post their opinions. I took that to include me, which is why I felt reassured. I'm pretty certain she didn't say "Everyone except Robsia".





Mrs_Mathias said:


> Everyone is allowed, Robsia. But I think this thread encourages ways to present your opinions thoughtfully and considerately. (And that's a generic "your", meaning I'm speaking of everyone here and not you, Robsia, specifically.) I feel that it also is place that understands the vast amount of differences and yet commonality in our experiences.
> 
> All I always hope to see when I come here is basic respect. And understanding that we may not share the same viewpoints, but that I will not belittle yours if you will not belittle mine.
> 
> With that being said, I am not religious. I have many of the same issues with people's interpretation of the Bible as you. BUT, those are _individual interpretations_, and I don't feel that anyone on this thread has represented to me, in my time here, the positions that you reference in your post.
> 
> 
> 
> Even as a non-Bible reader/Christian, I would be offended by your comments. Your comment reads as if you are insinuating that perhaps unlike the people quoting the Bible, YOU have actually read it. I know, I know... I have met plenty of people that this statement can be correctly applied to, but again, I don't believe that is the case here, and certainly not with Mr. Blunt.
> 
> I honestly believe that the people who take the time and energy to share on the R thread do believe the statements you offer about people being good without being Christian, etc. But for THEM, the Bible has been a source of comfort and support as they travel through life.
> 
> I think we can agree that not every post here is comforting or relevant to all, but they are offered with a genuine hope of helping someone. You don't want Mr. Blunt to attempt to sway your experience with Scripture, just as I'm sure he doesn't want you to attempt to sway his. Each of you has found what works for you at this point. But if I have learned one thing in my life, it is that I always have the possibility of looking at things with new eyes and new understanding. It is essential to my ability to learn and grow. So I appreciate any knowledge, care, and perspective offered to me, and also recognize my own power to select what I choose to affect me.



Mrs. M,

You said that so well and I thank you very much for posting it. 

On a different note, I'm very glad that Matt chose to attend your Spring Concert last night! I have no doubt that meant a great deal to you. I think it was a very..... not sure what word I want to use, here; positive, supportive, amazing, generous, decent, big, selfless, choice for him to make. Matt, good on you! It makes me happy! 

On a different, different note: Mrs. M., I love your new avatar..... It's a beautiful picture.


----------



## SomedayDig

soulpotato said:


> I'm going to chime in on religion here. My experience of religion and religious people (mostly Christians) has been HORRIBLE.
> 
> Hopefully there's room here for the non-religious as well as the religious. I've noticed that a double-standard is often present. Religious folks feel entitled to talk about their beliefs and quote the Bible whenever they feel like it (which is fine so long as atheists can also state their beliefs and be respected), but the minute someone says, "I'm an atheist," or, "I don't believe," or, "I don't agree with this," the religious person tends to turn around and get hostile, harass, or condemn the non-religious person to hell. Not ALL religious people do this, I know, but too many do in my opinion. I have experienced it over and over. Acceptance and respect need to go both ways, but they usually don't.
> 
> Robsia (who kind of got the beatdown) is correct that while the Bible has been a source of good for many people, it IS often used to justify discrimination and other harmful things (some of us have REALLY suffered in the name of the Bible, me included).
> 
> If it's okay for people to quote the Bible here and talk about god and religion, then it should be equally ok for others to speak their beliefs. It's not fair to have only one group represented, only one group with the "right" to speak and share their beliefs.
> 
> This is not meant to offend anyone, okay? Again, I understand that not all religious people want to use the Bible (or other holy books) to hurt or discriminate against others. If what you guys say is true, that we ALL belong on this thread, then this should be fine.
> 
> I wanted to share some of my negative/hurtful experiences with religion/religious people with you guys for the sake of representation and illustration, but I think I'd get attacked.


I'll make one final commentary on the subject. From everything I have seen in this thread, when it comes to religion - I've NEVER seen a Christian bash someone because they don't believe as it relates to Reconciliation. I HAVE seen people get bashed for quoting scripture trying to offer comfort to those working on Reconciliation. And it's not just Robsia who has said her piece about that here. It's happened a few times since this thread began last year.

A negative experience in ANY religion, in my opinion, is tragic. That people use their position of power in any kind of church and pervert an otherwise beautiful system of belief is truly what is evil. Look at Radical Islamic viewpoints and see how they've distorted the Qur'an. Look at Westboro Baptist Church and see how they've distorted the Bible. Look at the Catholic Church coverup of pediphile priests. Then again, look at the likes of Napolean, Stalin, Mussolini and Kim Jong Il (all atheists).

See...there is evil in the world. Period. They can hide behind a belief or dis-belief, it matters not. Like infidelity, it is about the BROKEN person. It doesn't matter if they're a devout Jew or a non-believer. 

Biblical verses WILL be quoted here because it simply brings comfort to those who accept Christ and maybe even those who are on the fence. Who knows, it might even comfort people who never even thought of Him. That is the point. To give comfort. Not to say - "Don't push your beliefs on me". No one is quoting this stuff to piss you off. They quote from the light of their heart.

I'm outspoken. That's just me. I wear my heart on my sleeve and have zero issue of calling anyone out in the name of honesty. Point me to the post where someone of faith criticized a nonbeliever for attempting to give comfort merely because they didn't invoke deity.

I would like to see that.


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm going for a 1 hour deep tissue massage now.

Thank you Regret for my birthday present. I know I let life get in the way of living sometimes. But I'll try not to today.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Enjoy the massage Dig - it sounds wonderful!!!


----------



## Acabado

soulpotato said:


> Hopefully there's room here for the non-religious as well as the religious. I've noticed that a double-standard is often present. Religious folks feel entitled to talk about their beliefs and quote the Bible whenever they feel like it (which is fine so long as atheists can also state their beliefs and be respected), but the minute someone says, "I'm an atheist," or, "I don't believe," or, "I don't agree with this," the religious person tends to turn around and get hostile, harass, or condemn the non-religious person to hell. Not ALL religious people do this, I know, but too many do in my opinion. I have experienced it over and over. Acceptance and respect need to go both ways, but they usually don't.


I'm atheist. I've told it here just becasue it was pertinent (precisely becasue I was quoting, somehow, the bible). I've never feel hostility here at all. Never. Always felt respected. I never felt offended by bible quotes either.


----------



## ChangingMe

CantSitStill said:


> CM how about you and DD? Haven't heard an update in a while...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Um. . . . 

It's been rough. Monday night was bad. Maybe as bad as it's been in a long time. DD told me he was filing for divorce after our family vacation in 2 weeks, and then told me he wanted me to move out on Tuesday. 

Tuesday we talked for several hours. I don't want to speak for him, but quite clearly he is still hurting badly and hasn't "gotten over" how I've hurt him (that's in quotes to say that I am not asking him to get over it). He told me he had been struggling for over a week, and he felt done on Monday. He struggles with having not just kicked me out on DDay and been done with me. Now we're nearly a year out from DDay, and he's still hurting and I think he was hoping to feel better by now. 

I think some of this is due to the fact that we are coming up on the 1 year mark. The next month and a half have some significant events, and I think we are both expecting triggers because of them. I really hope that once we get past the 1 year point, that some of this at least will start feeling more in the past. Not saying that I expect all the hurt and anger to go away, but at least I will be able to say that "This time last year, I was making good choices for my family." I don't know; maybe I too hopeful. 

There has been lots of other tense issues -the bonus DD was basically promised didn't pan out, our home taxes jumped up, so our payment went up $250/month, due to money being tight, DD hasn't gotten to fly in weeks, which is his 1 main joy & stress reliever. 

He flies his first cross country flight tomorrow though; I hope that helps him a bit. His father is buying a plane, which they will hopefully get within a week or two, so that is also exciting. 

We have a family vacation to Myrtle Beach in 9 days. The kids are SO excited, and I really, really hope it can be a good trip for us all. I think there is some hesitation about this, as we took a trip in September, and it was rough on DD.

Thank you for checking on us. I wish I had a clearer answer, but I don't. We are still hanging in there, and for that I am grateful.


----------



## TCSRedhead

You're both in my thoughts and prayers, CM and DD.


----------



## soulpotato

SomedayDig said:


> I'm outspoken. That's just me. I wear my heart on my sleeve and have zero issue of calling anyone out in the name of honesty. Point me to the post where someone of faith criticized a nonbeliever for attempting to give comfort merely because they didn't invoke deity.
> 
> I would like to see that.


This wasn't really what I was trying to say, Dig. I'm not saying that believers attack non-believers for not invoking god when offering comfort. Even the most religious of people might not always verbally invoke god in EVERY situation (though GF's mother comes close, lol).

Yes, you make good points in your post. I just meant that god, holy books, and religion have been used as the ultimate justification for all kinds of sad things, both historically and in my own experience. I wasn't aware that atheism itself had been cited as a reason for annihilating groups of people or attacking anyone, etc. (I have personally never seen an atheist attack a religious person, never. Religious people are vastly in the majority and generally have the power in society. They are the reason that I couldn't marry GF, and the reason we feared being open before we separated. Being beaten or killed in the name of god just because we love each other would suck.) Yes, there is evil, yes, people will find many excuses to discriminate and to justify the wrong things that they do. But religion/god seems to be the heavyweight justification, the most popular. 

I personally like and respect you from what I've read of your posts, and I have no problem with respecting the beliefs of others regardless of whether or not they're my own. I wasn't trying to upset you or anyone else (and certainly not stress you out). But since religion came up and was being talked about, I felt compelled to share that like Robsia, I had not seen religion and god to always be a source of comfort, good, and support for people. I just want to see respect and acceptance on both sides, that's all. I wasn't trying to start some big debate, but I couldn't remain silent.

For the sake of everyone being happy and not continuing to disrupt the program, I will make this my last comment on the religious stuff.

Hope you enjoy your day and your massage.


----------



## CantSitStill

Sounds about how Calvin felt before the year mark. It got really bd, he didn't know if we belong together. It got real bad and went on for a while. He's feeling better lately so maybe it gets real bad before it gets better. I really hope because we went thru so many hellish days. It hurts so much knowing you hurt the one you love the most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

I've quoted scripture before on this site to make a point. "There are none so blind as those that will not see" and "Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting..." are two that come to mind. However I do not consider myself religious but rather simply a person of faith. As the Bible's writers must have considered themselves.

Without trying to pick a fight I've always thought it comforting that there existed a being (creator) somewhere that was far superior to me and my kind. I also thought it enobling that I, a self-professed rational man, could believe in something intangeable and unprovable.

You can argue religion all day long but still have to acknowledge that no matter what you call your creator or whether you're oriented toward Mecca, Rome, Jereuslem or are a sentinent being of faith on an inhabited planet rotating around Alpha Centuri your creator is one and the same. That thought allows me not to be judgemental about a religion only in some cases about the people who profess to practice it.

Just sayin'

Seasalt


----------



## Robsia

seasalt said:


> but *[you] still have to acknowledge that* no matter what you call your creator or whether you're oriented toward Mecca, Rome, Jereuslem or are a sentinent being of faith on an inhabited planet rotating around Alpha Centuri *your creator is one and the same.*


No. I really, really don't.

I don't have to acknowledge the existence of any universal creator. The only people who created me were my parents.


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> Hopefully there's room here for the non-religious as well as the religious. *I've noticed that a double-standard is often present. Religious folks feel entitled to talk about their beliefs and quote the Bible whenever they feel like it (which is fine so long as atheists can also state their beliefs and be respected), but the minute someone says, "I'm an atheist," or, "I don't believe," or, "I don't agree with this," the religious person tends to turn around and get hostile, harass, or condemn the non-religious person to hell. *Not ALL religious people do this, I know, but too many do in my opinion. I have experienced it over and over. Acceptance and respect need to go both ways, but they usually don't.


soulpotato,

I've been posting on the "R" since the day it began. I've read every single comment that's ever been posted here. I can assure you, with absolute certainty, that no one on this thread has ever been harassed for their faith or lack thereof. I'll even share with you that I am a conservative Republican and a Southern Baptist. Yep, we have quite a reputation for being closed minded and intolerant. B1 and I even spent big money, (that we couldn't afford) for reasons of our own, to send our kids to a very small private Christian school...... I probably sound like your worst nightmare, don't I? 

Yet, I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find someone who is a bigger advocate and supporter of minorities, the homeless, individuals with disabilities, the elderly, gays, lesbians, straights, etc.,....... it's actually a fairly lengthy list. And, yes, I'm willing to put myself out there, sign my name on the dotted line, open (B1's ) checkbook, or stand in front of the line when called upon. I've done so many times. But, let me be clear..... I am all about equal rights for everyone..... Not, special rights for some, at the expense of others. That's where I stand. 

In the course of my life, I've have had both positive and negative experiences among my Christian friends and acquaintances. By the same token, I can say the same about my experiences among my non-Christian friends and acquaintances. I will gladly share my faith, which has endured its fair share of tests, with anyone who is receptive to listen, but I have never had any desire to attempt to force it upon anyone. 

This thread is on a public forum. It belongs to no one and everyone. No one has the right or ability to control the contributions of anyone else. Everyone has a right to silently "ignore" or openly disagree with the comments of the others. I believe, in keeping with the general spirit and original intent of this thread, that I can safely speak for the OP, whom I happen to be sleeping with , in saying that it benefits everyone to treat others with the same amount of courtesy, respect, and consideration that they would like to receive.

As a final note........ There are two individuals posting on this thread whose comments have proved to be the most beneficial to me, personally, in my reconciliation with B1. One of them is a devout Christian. The other is an Atheist. 

If a poster wishes to be treated with courtesy, respect and consideration, logic dictates that they should treat others with the same courtesy, respect and consideration.

Have I welcomed you to the "R" Thread, soulpotato?


----------



## daisygirl 41

CM and DD, thinking of you both and hoping you get through this rough patch xx


----------



## CantSitStill

DD...I don't know what to say, I feel your sadness in your post and want both of you to be happy. So sorry you're going through this. I'm sorry all the BS's are going through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> Have I welcomed you to the "R" Thread, soulpotato?


Haha, thank you!  To be honest, I feel a little like a ghost on TAM sometimes. Not sure if I really "belong", but I like being here and have found it really helpful, and I like more than a few people I've read posts from on TAM and specifically on this thread, too. You are one of the people I think is awesome, and I think that you have a kind spirit.  

Someday, I hope to be able to post in this thread and say, "GF and I are now in R!" 

Thank you, EI.


----------



## bfree

DD, I'd like to ask you a question. Do you want to reconcile? Note I didn't ask if you could but do you want to?


----------



## Deejo

You guys don't make this easy.

Conversation is very interwoven between content relating to the topic, and what many of the participants are obviously comfortable discussing outside the context of the topic itself.

Some posts got reported.

I removed a few. Some may be bothered by those removed ... many were referential to posts that didn't belong.

Nothing wrong with being a person of faith, or not being a person of faith.

But please don't make the thread about _that_, the acceptance or lack thereof when it comes to differing views in that vein. 

Faith in the religious context ... is not what the thread is about. And it's a damn worthwhile thread.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Status Update. Three months and some change since D-Day. I still don't have much trust in my WS (6 on a scale of 0 to 10) and I don't feel very close to him, mainly because I don't share a lot of what's rattling around in my head. 

Some of the time when I try to delve into the A, he has become defensive, even getting a nasty tone in his voice and blameshifting - e.g. "I can't believe you printed out cell phone records." So I back off and don't go there for a few days. Then the pressure builds up. 

Other times he talks about how much guilt he feels about the A, or says he doesn't know how he was able to lie to me because he hates liars. (This part still baffles me too.) 

He is kind of a mess, mental health-wise. He used to be a tower of strength, so this is weird. He's had some serious medical issues, and anxiety was starting to be a problem - it finally culminated in a panic attack late last spring, which helped him realize he needed to get help. He's been in IC since then. (He later admitted there has been depression in the mix too.) The EA started in the summer, and the PA in the winter.

So I cut him some slack. Due to anxiety and depression and panic, he can't cope very well in general (that's what he's supposed to be getting better at through IC) and in particular, when asked to face up to what he did during the A, he doesn't hold up very well. He was actually physically ill for the first couple weeks after D-Day.

I do see a little improvement, though. During a recent talk about how the EA began, he started to get annoyed at me but then I could tell he "brought it down" and instead apologized about how he treated me. 

I feel so tired sometimes - I know it's partly grief, partly the hypervigilance. Not because I think he's thinking of her or getting involved with someone else - the A is over, I know from both him and OW - but there has been financial infidelity (overspending, some of it hidden from me), plus I'm just not convinced he has it in him to care deeply about me or our marriage since he seems to care most about his hobbies.

In Not Just Friends, Shirley Glass mentions "Running on Empty" in a section that explores why some people enter into affairs. "The drive toward excitement can mask underlying depression, numbness, or emptiness." I think something has been missing in him, and for some time he's been filling it by spending time and money on hobbies - then, he threw in the OW for an added "hobby." (Blech.) 

He's starting to exercise again - that's a hobby I really like to see him get into. I know it can help lift depression and alleviate anxiety. I hope it can help him to start feeling more like his old self. This podperson isn't able to help me very much in my healing, or to work very much on R. This is a long, hard road. But I'm taking it one step at a time.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



DevastatedDad said:


> No.
> 
> But I keep thinking maybe if I wait, I might later.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now here is the million dollar question. Why?

When you answer be completely honest and brutal. Don't sugar coat anything.


----------



## EI

Deejo said:


> You guys don't make this easy.
> 
> Conversation is very interwoven between content relating to the topic, and what many of the participants are obviously comfortable discussing outside the context of the topic itself.
> 
> Some posts got reported.
> 
> I removed a few. Some may be bothered by those removed ... many were referential to posts that didn't belong.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being a person of faith, or not being a person of faith.
> 
> But please don't make the thread about _that_, the acceptance or lack thereof when it comes to differing views in that vein.
> 
> Faith in the religious context ... is not what the thread is about. And it's a damn worthwhile thread.


Uh-Oh, we're in trouble now!!! First visit by the feds, I mean the mods!  B1 is gonna kill me when he gets home...... 

Hi Deejo, have you been welcomed to the "R" thread?  

BTW, thank you for that last sentence. That's quite an endorsement!


----------



## soulpotato

Hopefulgirl, it's great that things are getting a little better for you. You are being exceedingly kind to your WH and I hope he appreciates that. At the very least, you deserve a proper R with all of his effort and energy committed, and I hope that he can start really doing the work necessary to make that possible. 

I can see why your trust can't be more than a 6 right now.  Even a 6 is pretty high, considering!


----------



## anchorman

bfree said:


> Now here is the million dollar question. Why?
> 
> When you answer be completely honest and brutal. Don't sugar coat anything.


Yep, and even more specifically, Do you think that a divorce will make the pain go away any more than staying together? The fact remains that since you have a family together, your lives are inextricably linked whether you remain married or not. 

Tough call, as a BS myself, I understand where you are coming from.


----------



## Decorum

Soulpotato,
I dont know if you had my post in mind when you said,



> Robsia (who kind of got the beatdown)


( I recognize that there may have been some other incident that I am unaware of)

But my scripture was never intended for her, it was to comfort CSS, in response to Robsia statement that CSS was stuck with the cheater lable. The verses clearly applied to CSS not Robsia.

Robsia's response was extreme and uncalled for, but I recognized that it was not because I thought differently about the topic but she objected to the use of scripture. I had no way of knowing her feelings about that.

I do not feel that I "beat her down" at all, I was put off by the vitriol in her post, but I understand her much better now.

No one can say that Robsia cannot standup for herself.

To be honest I have refrained from posting here further as a result.

Had I only thought to quote shakespeare instead this might have been avoided. It is the sense of authority that the bible is quoted with that seems to be the big objection on the part of those who deride it.

I feel compassion for Robsia and all the BS's here (and the FWW spouses as well), but if we reference something that brings about such a strong reaction then those like myself have to make a choice between, being in full "Walking on eggshell" mode, offending, or to disassociate.

I pass by things in posts (without comment) I dont like all the time. To me that is just a forum etiquette.

Not all will agree, so be it.


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> Haha, thank you!  To be honest, I feel a little like a ghost on TAM sometimes. Not sure if I really "belong", but I like being here and have found it really helpful, and I like more than a few people I've read posts from on TAM and specifically on this thread, too. You are one of the people I think is awesome, and I think that you have a kind spirit.
> 
> Someday, I hope to be able to post in this thread and say, "GF and I are now in R!"
> 
> Thank you, EI.



You're welcome..... And, thank you very much for the compliment!  I've enjoy reading your posts, as well. I, too, hope that you are able to reconcile with your GF.


----------



## EI

Decorum, please do not hesitate to post here. I have found great comfort and wisdom in your posts. As adults, we are all free to take or leave comments at our own discretion.

I, for one, greatly value your contributions here.


----------



## jh52

DevastatedDad said:


> Figure I can chime in here.
> Not good.
> 
> I spoke to a divorce lawyer earlier this week. I had an appointment with him today but I cancelled because Holy sh!t who has $350 / hour to spend? I'd rather spend it on flying.
> 
> I would never get married again one because this situation has taught me a lot but also because what business does the state have in two people being together. It is dumb. I love you so lets sign a bunch of papers. I don't love you anymore so let me pay 15 grand to not be with you. It is nonsense. I know kids, property, etc. I get it but if we could divide that stuff up nicely, there should be no need for bureaucracy.
> 
> We are looking at selling the house and I still can't decide if I just say screw it, and get a little 3 bedroom for me and the kids or if I get a bigger one w/ both of us in mind.
> 
> But how big of a screw job would it be to CM if I buy one based on both our incomes, and I still decide I can't get through this.
> She would lose her share of the equity she would have gotten if I say now I am out, lets sell this thing and split the cash.
> 
> I am in a better place than I was a few days ago but my gut tells me this is going to end with us separate.
> 
> I am hurting, I am tired, I am tired of being tired. And the religion thing ties in nicely. There may be a god but I am 100% convinced religion fiction designed to control and divide.
> 
> However, CM buys into it 100%. So either I pretend for the kids or she doesn't get what she needs from it. I am not ever going to go to a church. But she would probably like to take the kids to it. In the long run it is better for her and her vision of bringing the kids up a certain way if she meets a nice fellow who thinks like she does.
> 
> Again, I am up and down and CM has no idea of knowing how I will be from one day to the next (for the record, neither do I)
> 
> We are a year out, and I am not sure how much better I feel. I am certainly MUCH more in control of my emotions and reactions but the fire is still there.
> 
> But the Kids...... EEEEERRRGGGGGG I am the type of person that believes what she did is unforgivable and the type to kick her out but I am not the type to infringe on my kids happiness. What a horrible paradigm in which to be caught.
> 
> All last week, I was determine to split up. The second I got off the phone w/ the attorney my only thought was "How horrible I am to be stealing a lifetime of family vacation memories from my kids" If we split, they will lose that.
> 
> I told CM I wish I had just kicked her out permanently on day one. Because after this lag, it is now me making or breaking it. It would have been a lot easier on my conscience to do it then and never have the thought that it was my doing. Now it is totally on me and one day my kids will resent me for it.
> 
> It would be weird if God is real and right now the guitarist for Slayer is in line for heaven behind that kid from Kriss Kross. That is the only scenario in which I think those two people could ever cross paths.


DD -- I don't believe I have ever responded to you directly -- but just want to say that you are putting way to much pressure on yourself. By that I mean -- you had a decision to make on DDay -- and your decision was to reconcile. I don't know if it was wrong or right -- but with everything you had for a data point in regards to your and CM's "old" marriage that was your decision.

You seem like a very creative person -- I watched your video you made for CM -- it was great -- but have you focused on creating a "new" marriage ? What you had before is dead, done , gone -- like a death. You have to let that go and move on just like you would have to do if you lost a love one. Now you have chosen to give CM, yourself and family a 2nd chance at a "new" marriage. Not saying it is easy -- but nothing worthwhile in life comes easy. Life is a marathon -- not a sprint -- take it an hour, day, month at a time. Look forward through the front window of the car -- try not to focus so much on the rear view mirror --- there are enough holes and bumps to watch for in life just getting through today -- and hopefully tomorrow -- because tomorrow is never guaranteed for any of us. I know that for a fact.

You don't have to make a decision -- today -- tomorrow --next week -- next month or even next year -- you have to live your life for yourself and kids -- and for now CM. You may decide to never leave -- hopefully that is what will happen -- but you do have the right to leave if and whenever you want. Just remember, CM has the same right to leave any time in the future if that is what she wants.

You both love each other and your kids -- I know that as 100% fact by reading your posts --- hopefully that love will turn you both into a "new marriage" that you will both grow old and have grandkids and still be together.

But nothing in life is guaranteed -- so don't put added pressure on yourself about having to make a decision. Enjoy today, remember yesterday and hopefully tomorrow will be another day you can enjoy.

Take care -- wishing you, CM and the kids a great weekend -- and the best in the future.


----------



## daisygirl 41

DevastatedDad said:


> Not sure which to answer so I will answer both
> 
> Question 1: Why I say "no"? because she is a day in day out reminder of what she did, and how my life has changed.
> 
> I know everyone's situation is different but I have listened to 3 different audio recordings of my friend giving my wife an orgasm.
> My friend who I had been out with the night prior while their hook up was scheduled for the following morning.
> 
> Someone tell me how to get over that. Think for a minute about hearing your spouse moaning and your close friends voice talking to her.
> 
> Maybe if I had never caught her and she came clean on her own, it would be easier but the circumstances in my situation make me hate her. There no sugar coating.
> 
> Question 2: Why do "I think if I wait I might want to later"?
> Because I owe it to my kids to fight for their childhoods to be pure, safe, protected, and Happy.


So sorry DD
My heart breaks for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> CSS
> Oy, Mr Blunt asked the very first time he came here if anyone minds if he talks about faith in God and about the bible..nobody had a problem with it.


Thank you CSS!!

I found TAM and this thread last year , which is one of the best threads on this subject that I have ever seen. Before I got involved I did ask if I was allowed to post about my spiritual beliefs. I was told, as CCS said, that I could.

Yesterday I posted some scriptures that helped me with my 20+ years of successful R. I did this in hopes that someone else may be able to use that source to help them with R

*Today I see that my post has been deleted. So I am a bit confused. If I am able to share my belief on this forum in order to try and help someone with R, why was my post deleted?

Did I violate any rules of TAM?*

If the powers to be do not want me to post anything that helped me, including scriptures, with my R then I will abide by their rules. Afterall the TAM owners can dictate anything they want because they own this forum not me.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thanks soulpotato. I try to remember what a good man he was. To me, to my family, to a very large number of other people. I believe that good man is still in there, but he's not well right now, and sick people can't give very much. They barely have enough energy to take proper care of themselves.

I try to hang on and be hopeful for the future, when I think he'll be better able to deal with this stuff.


----------



## bfree

Ok DD, so far you have answered exactly as I thought you would. Last question from me before I give you my thoughts. Has your wife done the heavy lifting? Do you believe in your heart and mind that she would ever betray you again? Has she atoned?


----------



## SomedayDig

DevastatedDad said:


> Not sure which to answer so I will answer both
> 
> Question 1: Why I say "no"? because she is a day in day out reminder of what she did, and how my life has changed.
> 
> I know everyone's situation is different but I have listened to 3 different audio recordings of my friend giving my wife an orgasm.
> My friend who I had been out with the night prior while their hook up was scheduled for the following morning.
> 
> Someone tell me how to get over that. Think for a minute about hearing your spouse moaning and your close friends voice talking to her.
> 
> Maybe if I had never caught her and she came clean on her own, it would be easier but the circumstances in my situation make me hate her. There no sugar coating.
> 
> Question 2: Why do "I think if I wait I might want to later"?
> Because I owe it to my kids to fight for their childhoods to be pure, safe, protected, and Happy.


DD...I've said it before, I could not imagine the pain you went through. It is the very thing nightmares are made of. I will venture to say there is no one on this Earth who can tell you how to "get over that". Cuz you simply can't do that. Hearing those voices in your head...excruciating. 

Add to that, the one thing that gives you solace right now is flying and you're unable to do that. Trust me in that I understand how you feel in that regard. There is nothing like conquering the air with thrust and lift over weight and drag. You alone in control of your aircraft. It's ALL on you and it's ALL in your control.

I hate what Regret did to me. I hate that she was so selfish and self serving that she could do that for five years and in a sense, think nothing of it. It was just something to do so she could escape the "horrible" life I was giving her with a nice house, nice clothes, nice car, etc.

It took a long, long time to realize one thing.

Unlike my Falconjet, I couldn't control her.

I've landed that jet on Runway 24 at Teterboro with the winds 350 at 30 knots gusting 45. I did that several times and nary a bounce on touchdown.

Yet...I couldn't stop Regret from what she did.

I landed at DFW once with such a hellish storm coming in with moderate/severe turbulence on 17L moments before they shut down the airfield. It took almost 45 minutes to taxi to the GA terminal. But I pulled off the landing and got my passengers there safely.

Yet...I was not in control of Regret inviting a man into my home to have sex with him for over a year and then meeting up with him at his house or two hotels that I got for her to relax after a couple long trips I had.

Being in control of that plane gives us such a great feeling because in its purest sense, it's all us. Lives hang in the balance when one takes a hunk of metal thousands of feet in the air, and that is a responsibility not understood unless you've done it. It is absolutely being in control.

And...it really f'ng sucks when we're not in control of what should be so seemingly simple.

I'm not telling you what to do, brother. I'm just saying that I feel a lot more in control in the understanding that I have no control over Regret. I trust her to do the right thing. How do you feel about CM?


----------



## seasalt

DevastatedDad,

A while ago on your original thread I suggested that you destroy the phone recordings that gave you your proof. I know you will always be able to hear them in your head but I hope you never try to access them again.

Seasalt


----------



## old timer

How bout them Yankees?


----------



## hopefulgirl

DD - I know the dates and times of texts between my WS and the OW because I went online and got those records. I needed that for the timeline. But I did not see the content of any of the texts. He erased them all. There were a couple thousand, and as the EA turned to a PA it was sexting. 

I'm glad I never saw them. I would be far more traumatized than I am already. I told him that I will never ask him to describe the sex. I do not want to go there. I want to know where and when, but what went on I do NOT want to know.

I understand the pain that you feel. Sex is a special part of what is supposed to be an exclusive bond with your spouse, and you have vivid - too vivid - evidence that this special part of the bond was broken. It's burned into your brain. And the lying and covering up compounds it. You are truly traumatized. Trauma is not easy to live with. I'm having a hard enough time with the level of trauma *I* have and it's not half as bad as yours. I'm so sorry for what you're going through.


----------



## SomedayDig

old timer said:


> How bout them Yankees?


Damn straight! We shut those Johnny Rebs down!!!



oh. you talkin bout baseball?


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> Decorum, please do not hesitate to post here. I have found great comfort and wisdom in your posts. As adults, we are all free to take or leave comments at our own discretion.
> 
> I, for one, greatly value your contributions here.


I agree, and I don't want anyone to stop posting here or feel like they have to tiptoe or not say certain things. 

(Decorum, no, my post wasn't directed at you.  )


----------



## happyman64

DD

I feel your pain from here.

You are in control of your emotions but what you are looking for is control of your life.

Sometimes I think that we control our own destiny's but other times I feel that we just roll with the punches in life.

I will say this however.

The pain ends when you decide to make it stop. Only you can control that. Is it easy, hell no. But you can do it. ANd it requires time. 

And while you feel guilty now asking CM to leave a year after her infidelity, maybe her being out of your house/life/face a year ago might have helped you heal.

Who knows???

So many BS's say they cannot forgive their WS's for their infidelity.

What I think is that so many BS's cannot forgive themselves for forgiving their WS's infidelity. I do know that the gift of forgiveness differs among people and also varies due to circumstances.

I hope you find some peace sooner rather than later. 

I also think some decision in either direction is a positive step. Because no decision is just limbo. And that just stresses out you and CM.

Respectfully

HM64


----------



## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> Thanks soulpotato. I try to remember what a good man he was. To me, to my family, to a very large number of other people. I believe that good man is still in there, but he's not well right now, and sick people can't give very much. They barely have enough energy to take proper care of themselves.


 You are giving him a great and very precious gift with this. That despite everything, you would still be able to remember, see, and believe those kinds of things about him.



> I try to hang on and be hopeful for the future, when I think he'll be better able to deal with this stuff.


I very much hope he will come around to give 150% in trying to repay in some part of your patience, kindness, and love throughout the marriage and especially through the infidelity and betrayal (though of course he'll only ever be able to aspire to it, not truly repay it). 

Hang in there! I'll definitely be following your updates and hoping for the best.


----------



## CantSitStill

I understand what DD is saying because a lot of what he says is a lot how Calvin feels.. the name of his thread with "I hate my life"". I feel Calvin's pain when DD posts. This is so hard for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> Thank you CSS!!
> 
> I found TAM and this thread last year , which is one of the best threads on this subject that I have ever seen. Before I got involved I did ask if I was allowed to post about my spiritual beliefs. I was told, as CCS said, that I could.
> 
> Yesterday I posted some scriptures that helped me with my 20+ years of successful R. I did this in hopes that someone else may be able to use that source to help them with R
> 
> *Today I see that my post has been deleted. So I am a bit confused. If I am able to share my belief on this forum in order to try and help someone with R, why was my post deleted?
> 
> Did I violate any rules of TAM?*
> 
> If the powers to be do not want me to post anything that helped me, including scriptures, with my R then I will abide by their rules. Afterall the TAM owners can dictate anything they want because they own this forum not me.



Mr. Blunt, the support and encouragement, on this thread and behind the scenes, that you have so generously given to B1 and me, has been such a tremendous blessing to us throughout our reconciliation. I, honestly, cannot thank you enough for the time that you have, personally, devoted to us. You've counseled us, encouraged us and inspired us. You have confided many of your own personal trials and tribulations in an effort to show us that you don't just talk the talk, you've walked the walk. You've allowed us to share things with you that we have not yet felt ready to share "out loud." You withheld judgement and allowed us to share our most personal heartbreaks, shortcomings and failures. You have showered us with your support and continued faith in us and your belief in our ability to overcome our trials and to restore our marriage, and perhaps, even our own hearts. With your encouragement, you have inspired me to become less guarded and more willing to step out in truth with myself and others.

As a result, I have a lot more internal peace about a situation with one of our sons that I have been grieving over for a very long time. The situation has not changed, but I have, and as a result I am able to respond in a much healthier way for myself, and what I believe will ultimately be a healthier way for him in the long run. I no longer respond from my guilt and shame, but instead as a mother who loves her son, unconditionally, but has the strength and fortitude to impose appropriate boundaries rather than a blank check based on emotional blackmail.

I truly feel that you have been a Godsend to us. I know that you have been to me. I've never taken the opportunity to thank you on this thread...... I'd like to do that now.


----------



## CantSitStill

Mr. Blunt. I do not think your post was deleted because of your scripture but just to stop the conflict of the religion conflict. Thank you Deejo for for taking care of it. It made me uncomfortable seeing people argue over it. Anyway, enough of that. I appreciate all of you and all of you have helped Calvin and I more than you realise ;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

DevastatedDad said:


> I don't really know what atoned means.
> 
> I don't believe she would cheat on me again.
> I didn't believe she would have any of the other times.
> 
> She has done whatever you can do. Like what is heavy lifting? She reads books, cries, apologizes, goes to therapy.
> 
> I am not trying to be stubborn here, I am just not sure what "atoning" is supposed to look like. I am sure she would rewind the clock if she could knowing how bad life is right now.
> 
> Hypothetically, lets say "yes, she has done everything right for the last X months"


Ok, here are my thoughts. Some of this might make you angry. You're a big boy. You can take it. Mostly I am posting these thoughts to make you think.

I think your trouble stems from the fact that you still seem to have your marriage from before the affair up on a pedestal. You are seeing it through rose colored glasses and therefore nothing that you have now or might have in the future will compare. Its like sometimes when parents lose a child. Now that child may have been a good child but certainly not perfect. But after the child is gone the parents can only see the good things and never see the bad. Any brothers or sisters of that child will always be compared to the ghost of that child even though that ghost doesn't even reflect the reality of what the child was like. It is an idealized version that bears no resemblance to reality.

I think in the same way you are idealizing your marriage and your version of your wife before the affair. What you do not understand is that it never existed. Your marriage had problems. All marriages do. Was it bad enough for CM to cheat. No, of course not. There is no excuse for that. But there were issues nonetheless. You often state that you felt that CM was better than you. That is also a fantasy. She was just as flawed as you and every other human being. You pedestalized her just like you did your marriage. You can't believe that she would do this. Why not? She is human with the same feelings and frailties as any other person. Ironically with the work and growth she has done over the past year she is now closer to the person you fantasized that she was before. You're probably thinking that I am wrong because CM also says that you had a great marriage. I have two thoughts about that. First is that she is truly remorseful and therefore feels it necessary to accept all the blame for the breakdown of the marriage. Even if there were problems she will minimize them because they pale in comparison to the problems caused by the affair. Second, she is not even going to take the slightest chance on being seen as blameshifting. When EI talks about how the WS is not allowed to express dissatisfaction with the marriage pre-affair because they will be seen as blameshifting she is right. But there were problems whether you want to admit them or not. And they should have been dealt with in a better fashion. But they weren't. They were swept under the rug. And they probably still are. Even if CM wanted to try bringing up any of these issues she wouldn't take the chance of driving you away. So you and she remain in limbo, each afraid or unwilling to rip off the bandaid and expose the wound to be treated.

And let me mention one other thing. On more than one occasion you have said that you did nothing to deserve this. I've heard this from many BS, my self included. But one thing you need to understand is that although the affair is 100% the responsibility of the WS, the condition of the marriage is another matter. You were not the perfect husband. You contributed to the state of the marriage pre-affair. You need to accept responsibility for that and I don't believe you have done it yet. Example, if I recall correctly you and CM participated in suggestive couples gatherings. I remember that when it was discussed you said "well nobody else but CM and the OM seem to have boundary issues." You know what that sounds like to me? It sounds like one of my sons saying "well Billy did it to!" It doesn't excuse your responsibility in exercising poor judgment. Have you accepted responsibility for that? Have you told CM that you are sorry for allowing things to get out of hand? As the leader of the family its your job to make sure things like that don't happen. Maybe by holding tight to an idealized version of our marriage you are in actuality avoiding looking in the mirror at your shortcomings. Maybe by refusing to forgive CM or even making more of an effort in R you can try to rationalize that none of this is your fault? See I know you know how to forgive. I have watched you and how you interact with others. You have friends and you make friends very easily. Someone like that would have been betrayed by a friend once or twice already in their lives. But I bet you worked through it and eventually forgave. Maybe the reason you are having such difficulty in forgiving CM is because if you do you have to accept the reality that while you aren't to blame for the affair you have to accept responsibility for the condition of the marriage.

See here's my problem with how you have handled R so far. CM has worked her azz off trying to atone for her transgressions. She has in fact become a better person, a person worthy of marriage and worthy of you. I know that you CAN forgive her. Its not even a question in my mind. But you refuse to forgive her or even work toward that goal. Because you somehow have it in your head that if you do she "gets away with it." If you stay with her then you've gone back on your word to divorce her. Those are childish concepts and don't belong in a mature loving relationship. They denote punishment and revenge not kindness and caring. What have you done to become a better husband? What have you done to improve yourself? And don't say you don't need to or should have to. We all can become better. We all should be working to improve ourselves. Do you deserve this? No. But I'm pretty sure most people don't deserve cancer. Most soldiers don't deserve to die in combat. The spectators at the Boston Marathon didn't deserve to have their legs blown off. Things happen. You deal with them and work to overcome them. Its called life and life is what you make of it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow Befree, what a post. I mean part of our reconciliation was for me to forgive Calvin of all those little things I resented about him. He and I have made a lot of changes within ourselves. Calvin is a great guy so don't think I'm saying he was a jerk and deserved it. Hell NO he didn't!!! I believe he did put me on that pedistal....damm me for ruining his looking at me as someone who wouldn't do that to him. I can't believe it myself that I went that crazy to of looked up an ex. Anyway, just wanted to say, I really really like this post Befree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

EI said:


> Mr. Blunt, the support and encouragement, on this thread and behind the scenes, that you have so generously given to B1 and me, has been such a tremendous blessing to us throughout our reconciliation. I, honestly, cannot thank you enough for the time that you have, personally, devoted to us. You've counseled us, encouraged us and inspired us. You have confided many of your own personal trials and tribulations in an effort to show us that you don't just talk the talk, you've walked the walk. You've allowed us to share things with you that we have not yet felt ready to share "out loud." You withheld judgement and allowed us to share our most personal heartbreaks, shortcomings and failures. You have showered us with your support and continued faith in us and your belief in our ability to overcome our trials and to restore our marriage, and perhaps, even our own hearts. With your encouragement, you have inspired me to become less guarded and more willing to step out in truth with myself and others.
> 
> As a result, I have a lot more internal peace about a situation with one of our sons that I have been grieving over for a very long time. The situation has not changed, but I have, and as a result I am able to respond in a much healthier way for myself, and what I believe will ultimately be a healthier way for him in the long run. I no longer respond from my guilt and shame, but instead as a mother who loves her son, unconditionally, but has the strength and fortitude to impose appropriate boundaries rather than a blank check based on emotional blackmail.
> 
> I truly feel that you have been a Godsend to us. I know that you have been to me. I've never taken the opportunity to thank you on this thread...... I'd like to do that now.


Mr. B,
I couldn't have said it better than EI did. A BIG thank you for your help, posts, Pm's and spiritual guidance.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> ............Things happen. You deal with them and work to overcome them. Its called life and life is what you make of it.


:iagree:

bfree, I think that was a very perceptive and well worded post. I hope that DD is able to receive it in the spirit that I believe it was intended. I think there is a lesson in there for all of us. Thank you for the time you spend here. We're very fortunate to have your contributions on this thread.


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## ChangingMe

I have a lot to say but I got work drama.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Work drama is definitely not a welcome thing on top of everything else. I'm sorry CM - sending you a prayer for some peace at work.


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## EI

DevastatedDad said:


> sorry that was me with work drama my phone still logs in as her when I first come to TAM.
> I cleared my cache and it stopped for a date next time I restarted my phone it was back
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Aren't you supposed to be a techno genius?


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## TCSRedhead

I was sooo going to make the tech joke but EI beat me to it!!!

The sentiment still applies to you as well, DD.


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## bfree

Nothing like sitting here reading the threads on TAM while my Boxer lies at my feet..............farting like [email protected]!


WHEW


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Well, both Matt and I were really anxious for the appointment with Dr. Harley today. We had to wait about 25 minutes past our appointment time for a callback, but then he spent about a hour and twenty on the phone with us, a little bit together, then a chunk with Matt alone, then me alone, and the both together at the end. I really like him. I knew I like the book and website content, and he's like that on the phone, very clear spoken, structured, and logical. The idea of concrete assignments and logical structure/progression through this is overwhelmingly reassuring to me at this point. I know it may not be successful, but I've been desperately in need of more guidance and this offers that for now. We have our next session on Tuesday, so I need to get cracking on my homework. . Hope that the weekend is positive for everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

I'm glad and excited you guys had such a positive session!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

That's great Mrs. M. . I bet the time flew by..I'd love to spend a day talking to him. We still need to make copies from the back of the HisNeedsHerNeeds book, so we can fill them out and do our homework. I hope this really helps you and Mr.M.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well, both Matt and I were really anxious for the appointment with Dr. Harley today. We had to wait about 25 minutes past our appointment time for a callback, but then he spent about a hour and twenty on the phone with us, a little bit together, then a chunk with Matt alone, then me alone, and the both together at the end. I really like him. I knew I like the book and website content, and he's like that on the phone, very clear spoken, structured, and logical. The idea of concrete assignments and logical structure/progression through this is overwhelmingly reassuring to me at this point. I know it may not be successful, but I've been desperately in need of more guidance and this offers that for now. We have our next session on Tuesday, so I need to get cracking on my homework. . Hope that the weekend is positive for everyone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you actually have a session with Dr. Bill Harley? If so, that's the first that I've heard of him doing that in recent years. It's usually his son Steve that does phone counseling, along with his daughter Jennifer Chalmers in the eastern hemisphere time zones as she live in the Philippines.

I could be wrong though.

Doesn't really matter. You can't miss no matter which one you talk to. They're all pretty extraordinary coaches and counselors. Well worth the money.

Glad it went well and best of luck.


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## Mrs_Mathias

You're right, it was Dr. Steve... My mistake. I am feeling hopeful about this. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

Mrs_Mathias said:


> You're right, it was Dr. Steve... My mistake. I am feeling hopeful about this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just for the record, Steve is the only one of the 3 that doesn't hold a doctorate. No matter there either as he has one helluva reputation for pulling people like you and Matt back together again.

That's the goal, eh?

You're in great hands.


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## ChangingMe

DevastatedDad said:


> although I know she has plenty of work kama as well. maybe more because she's in charge
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My work kama is actually ok for now, thank you.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Mrs_Mathias said:


> You're right, it was Dr. Steve... My mistake. I am feeling hopeful about this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They are great. What did Matt say about the session? Matt strikes me as very creative and thoughtful. I think they'd be right up his alley.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



3putt said:


> Just for the record, Steve is the only one of the 3 that doesn't hold a doctorate. Know matter there either as he has one helluva reputation for pulling people like you and Matt back together again.
> 
> That's the goal, eh?
> 
> You're in great hands.


I can't remember. Is Steve the one that does the radio program?


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## 3putt

bfree said:


> I can't remember. Is Steve the one that does the radio program?


No, that is Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce.


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## bfree

3putt said:


> No, that is Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce.


I've listened a few times. When I listened it seemed it was a younger man. It doesn't matter. Like you said, they're all terrific.


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## Wazza

DevastatedDad said:


> Not sure which to answer so I will answer both
> 
> Question 1: Why I say "no"? because she is a day in day out reminder of what she did, and how my life has changed.
> 
> I know everyone's situation is different but I have listened to 3 different audio recordings of my friend giving my wife an orgasm.
> My friend who I had been out with the night prior while their hook up was scheduled for the following morning.
> 
> Someone tell me how to get over that. Think for a minute about hearing your spouse moaning and your close friends voice talking to her.
> 
> Maybe if I had never caught her and she came clean on her own, it would be easier but the circumstances in my situation make me hate her. There no sugar coating.
> 
> Question 2: Why do "I think if I wait I might want to later"?
> Because I owe it to my kids to fight for their childhoods to be pure, safe, protected, and Happy.


As for Q2.....100% agree. IMO the best way you can achieve that is to be there for your kids (no stepdad who could turn out to be an abuser!!) and have a functional relationship with CM. Doesn't have to be love but needs to be civil. 

As for Q1....you will never be in a situation where the affair didn't happen. Gonna throw you a radical thought. If the recordings paly in your head, the extreme of trying to shut them out is not working....what if you went the other way....listen to them every day. Try and come to terms with them?

If you left CM, and formed another relationship, would you not just be waiting for the next woman to double cross you too? I would. 

Survivors of affairs are all lifers. No early release. We have to come to terms with it. Sucks, but it is what it is.


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## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> Thank you CSS!!
> 
> I found TAM and this thread last year , which is one of the best threads on this subject that I have ever seen. Before I got involved I did ask if I was allowed to post about my spiritual beliefs. I was told, as CCS said, that I could.
> 
> Yesterday I posted some scriptures that helped me with my 20+ years of successful R. I did this in hopes that someone else may be able to use that source to help them with R
> 
> Today I see that my post has been deleted. So I am a bit confused. If I am able to share my belief on this forum in order to try and help someone with R, why was my post deleted?
> 
> Did I violate any rules of TAM?
> 
> If the powers to be do not want me to post anything that helped me, including scriptures, with my R then I will abide by their rules. Afterall the TAM owners can dictate anything they want because they own this forum not me.


[


> B]By EI[/B]
> Mr. Blunt, the support and encouragement, on this thread and behind the scenes, that you have so generously given to B1 and me, has been such a tremendous blessing to us throughout our reconciliation. I, honestly, cannot thank you enough for the time that you have, personally, devoted to us. You've counseled us, encouraged us and inspired us. You have confided many of your own personal trials and tribulations in an effort to show us that you don't just talk the talk, you've walked the walk. You've allowed us to share things with you that we have not yet felt ready to share "out loud." You withheld judgement and allowed us to share our most personal heartbreaks, shortcomings and failures. You have showered us with your support and continued faith in us and your belief in our ability to overcome our trials and to restore our marriage, and perhaps, even our own hearts. With your encouragement, you have inspired me to become less guarded and more willing to step out in truth with myself and others.
> 
> As a result, I have a lot more internal peace about a situation with one of our sons that I have been grieving over for a very long time. The situation has not changed, but I have, and as a result I am able to respond in a much healthier way for myself, and what I believe will ultimately be a healthier way for him in the long run. I no longer respond from my guilt and shame, but instead as a mother who loves her son, unconditionally, but has the strength and fortitude to impose appropriate boundaries rather than a blank check based on emotional blackmail.
> 
> I truly feel that you have been a Godsend to us. I know that you have been to me. I've never taken the opportunity to thank you on this thread...... I'd like to do that now
> 
> 
> *Reply by B1*
> Mr. B,
> I couldn't have said it better than EI did. A BIG thank you for your help, posts, Pm's and spiritual guidance.





To EI and B1 and anyone else that is interested.
Those that are not interested in my posts please put me on ignore or skip

Since I have been on this thread I have noticed that just about everyone wants to use their experience to help another. Those of us that have been BS or WS or both have been put through the test of fire and we have boiled out some of our impurities. Sometimes getting hurt to the bone is a great awakening and motivator to build a better life and relationships.

*For me nothing keeps me coming back like a post like EI and B1 just posted above.* Just on this last issue I was so reinforced to keep coming back to this thread because of responses today by:
Decorum,Bfree, Css, Did, cpaspan, acabado, Mrs M, Sea Salt, B1 and EI

*These people above may have different beliefs but they have one thing in common; they sincerely want to help others.* These are just the people that I noticed today on one issue; there are many more in their category on TAM.

None of us get paid to spend time on TAM, I think most of us just get a lot of nourishment for the heart to see that they have helped a bleeding heart that has an injured soul. I know I will never forget those people that helped me 20+ years ago. Helping other people can sometimes give you strength to hold your head up even though other issues in your life are depressing you.

Now before we all get together around the campfire with hugs and sing Kumbaya I want to say that I am going to continue to post those things that helped me for 20+ years. If the moderators want to delete them that will not stop me. If they ban me then I will go somewhere else. *There is no use me trying to help someone or be helped if I cannot post what has really happened in my life or what helped me.* Those that do not want to hear what I have to say, well Dig said it best (Doesn’t he always?), he said just put me on ignore or like cpacan said just skip over it.

My post that got deleted was not meant to be controversial it was giving what really helped me and I think could maybe help another. In fact it was not controversial at all IMO. As Mrs. M has stated; for some, scriptures are a real source of comfort in times like infidelity. *I shared what comforted me not controversy.*

*Rather than delete someone’s post because their belief system does not set well with a few why not allow those that provide help for some to be the criteria?* Acabado has a different belief system than I do but yet I have seen Acabado help so many people. He deserves all the “Likes” that he gets from me and others.

When you get your post deleted it is hard to not take it personally; especially when you thought that what you posted was helpful. However, I have been lifted up by the posts that addressed this issue and of course from EI and B1. They have told me in PMs how much I have encouraged them; *I wonder if they know how much they encourage me and many others on TAM?*


Blunt


----------



## TCSRedhead

ChangingMe said:


> My work kama is actually ok for now, thank you.


LOL - caught that, huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old timer

> Originally posted by *Mr. Blunt*:
> When you get your post deleted it is hard to not take it personally; especially when you thought that what you posted was helpful. However, I have been lifted up by the posts that addressed this issue and of course from EI and B1. They have told me in PMs how much I have encouraged them; *I wonder if they know how much they encourage me and many others on TAM?*
> 
> 
> Blunt


For the record, Mr. Blunt, I don't have a problem with any religious posts or comments. 

My "how bout them Braves/Yankees" comments were intended to inject a little levity into what appeared to be a quickly deteriorating exchange. 

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum

Well who can take exception to a sports loving Donald Duck? HA HA HA

Mr Blunt I am glad to hear your resolve, as I drag the scroll bar down a page, your posts are always ones I take time to read, not just for scripture but the clarity of your posts. Well done and thank you for continuing.

Take care!


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## daisygirl 41

Morning all. Just a quick post. It's a bank holiday weekend in the UK, that usually means rain, but looking forward to 3 days off work/school.
I went to the docs on Thursday and she has prescribed me a mild SSRi for my anxiety. Apparently the symptoms get worse before they get better but H and I have discussed it and we are prepared. I'm putting into practice everything I learnt in IC (deep breathing, living in the moment, etc) so we will see how it goes. She wants to see me in 2 weeks to see how I'm getting on.

Bfree- your post to DD was thought provoking and inspiring. It gave me a boost this morning and really reminded me that we all have work to do in our R and we can't get complacent and lazy with the Changes we have both promised to make in order to make this worse. It's so easy to be the victim in all this and it's important to remember that this is team work. Saying that though, I also understand where DD is coming from. When I was having my bad week last week, I had decided in my head that it just wasn't worth it anymore, I'd really had enough, but the thought of putting my children through another separation was out of the question. So that's what got me through it last week and now we are back on track again.

Mr Blunt- your posts are an invaluable part of this thread and I am so glad that you will continue to share your wisdom and support. If you ever decide to leave TAM please would you PM me
So I can continue to recurve your support elsewhere. I truly hope that doesn't happen though.

B1 and E1
Thankyou again for this wonderful thread.
It's the only thread on TAM where I truly feel safe to post honestly. I'm still feeling somewhat fragile after last week so this truly is a safe haven.

Have a good weekend everyone
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

good morning everyone:

*mr. b.*, i'm echoing what EI and dg said -- if you ever decide not to come back, please PM me and let me know!

you are part of the reason that this thread has been truly invaluable for me personally. i'm so grateful for the wisdom and the loving perspective that people like you have to offer, and i respect the sources of that wisdom in your life, even if my sources are different. 

puts me in mind of the wonderment of this thread! all of us are simultaneously strangers/friends, unknowns/knowns, distant/close... we have such clear common ground and also many little differences and particulars. some of those particulars would likely have kept us from ever getting to know each other in the "real" world. (just think what i would be missing. just think what i am missing _now_.)

one more lesson in my year of lessons


----------



## jim123

MrMathias said:


> Thanks for your comments everyone, I appreciate it.
> 
> 
> 
> The above statement is why I posted in the Reconciliation thread- I truly thought this would be the best place for feedback from 'both sides' more or less equally. I thought of starting a new thread which I decided was unnecessary, or using my old one (which would have been very brutal I think), but it seemed silly when there are people here, working on and dealing with issues like this.
> 
> Thanks again to all, especially bfree. Your comments about 'equal' boundaries regardless of who cheated, and who is the man or woman are relevant and that's something I've been thinking about anyway.
> 
> We had a talk last night about TSB in particular, and we'll have to discuss concrete boundaries in general, for both of us.


Matt,

After reading all Mrs. M. Responses, I do see what she is talking about.

She is changing jobs, changing where she lives, adding to the family, maybe deleting from the family. The person she loves the most hates her and even worst she hates herself. 

The conversation was one that allowed her to vent. 

Let's focus a little on the truths she has told. She said she would do anything to save her marriage and has done so. She said she would put the family first and has done so. She said she would put her life second and she has done so.
l
Her love for you is clear. I am happy you have gone to a better ic.

If you help the Mrs, throug this you will have her love forever. You do not forgive for her, you forgive for you. If you help the Mrs. find her salvation, you will find yours.


----------



## margrace

happyman64 said:


> The pain ends when you decide to make it stop. Only you can control that. Is it easy, hell no. But you can do it. ANd it requires time.....What I think is that so many BS's cannot forgive themselves for forgiving their WS's infidelity.





bfree said:


> CM has worked her azz off trying to atone for her transgressions. She has in fact become a better person, a person worthy of marriage and worthy of you. I know that you CAN forgive her. Its not even a question in my mind. But ...you somehow have it in your head that if you do she "gets away with it." ...Those are childish concepts and don't belong in a mature loving relationship. They denote punishment and revenge not kindness and caring....We all can become better. We all should be working to improve ourselves. Do you deserve this? No. But... [t]hings happen. You deal with them and work to overcome them. Its called life and life is what you make of it.


deep! really helpful. something comes together in these posts that i really, really need to work with.

for newer posters: there are some of you here who are working on R, yet your WS may not quite be in a remorseful place yet. i was one of those for about 9 months! finally, as 2012 (a.k.a. worst year ever) came to a close and my WH began meeting with our MC, his eyes somehow opened, and he started doing that heavy lifting that everyone here had been telling me about. gradually, he was no longer the resentful, bottled-up, shady-seeming WH that he had been -- he could speak (yay!), and he took responsibility for what he had done, and he could talk about issues and problems (his own and the ones that we BOTH need to work on from earlier in our marriage). 

little by little, i have seen him approach the remorseful, transparent, resolute, loving, and insightful place achieved by WSs on this thread. he has said some things recently that are very brave and downright wise 

we are new to this stage of R -- i would say it's been a couple of months now. so we need to allow for time to show that it's for real and that he/we can sustain it. but being at this stage also makes it clearer than ever that there are contributions to R that only I can make as the BS. my WH can't do them or fix them completely for me/us.

now back to the deep deepness. as long as i see H doing his work, i need to take more responsibility for moving past my hurt and anger. why does it have such a hold on me? for me, the answer feels connected to vulnerability and fear. like, if i let myself forget the pain, if i let myself get comfortable and happy(ish), that's when i will let my guard down and before you know it, i'm the patsy again. i believed my WH many times when he was flat-out lying (while looking into my eyes and holding my hand). i know that i am PETRIFIED of that happening again.

but you know what? if he keeps this up, then i need to push myself more, too. like someone else said, i realize that, to some extent, we are all lifers once this happens -- it is part of all of us now. do we deserve it? that's not a meaningful question, as bfree pointed out. that's a question that comes from childish thinking, magical thinking about life. 

i think dig said something like this -- once my H is shouldering his work, then i need to free myself from the illusion that i can control all the vulnerability that i feel. i can't. and trying to do that is going to make R harder and is also going to squeeze the life out of ME.

thanks for the light bulb moment!


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## CantSitStill

2 bad bad days in a row...feeling sick to my stomach. This gets to me to where I throw up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

margrace said:


> ...... all of us are simultaneously strangers/friends, unknowns/knowns, distant/close... we have such clear common ground and also many little differences and particulars. some of those particulars would likely have kept us from ever getting to know each other in the "real" world. (just think what i would be missing. just think what i am missing _now_.)
> 
> one more lesson in my year of lessons


Wish I had said that.............  Words like that inspire me.....


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> 2 bad bad days in a row...feeling sick to my stomach. This gets to me to where I throw up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry, CSS. I think Calvin may be physically exhausted from the early mornings, long hours and excessive over-time. Some days I feel like I can conquer the world...... But, when I get exhausted, something as simple as deciding what to make for dinner, or just picking up the phone to order pizza can reduce me to an inconsolable pile of tears. 

I babysat our 20 month old grandson yesterday. He was still here when B1 got home from work. Dinner hadn't even crossed my mind. B1 ordered dinner and had it delivered. He didn't even ask me what I wanted. He just ordered a sandwich he thought I might like. I did. I was so grateful...... I didn't have the energy to think. I ate my sandwich, our daughter picked up the baby and I feel asleep on the couch at 7:30 p.m. I didn't wake up until 5:30 this morning.

Now, my house this morning......


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> I'm sorry, CSS. I think Calvin may be physically exhausted from the early mornings, long hours and excessive over-time. Some days I feel like I can conquer the world...... But, when I get exhausted, something as simple as deciding what to make for dinner, or just picking up the phone to order pizza can reduce me to an unconsolable pile of tears.
> 
> I babysit our 20 month old grandson yesterday. He was still here when B1 got home from work. Dinner hadn't even crossed my mind. B1 ordered dinner and had it delivered. He didn't even ask me what I wanted. He just ordered a sandwich he thought I might like. I did. I was so grateful...... I didn't have the energy to think. I ate my sandwich, our daughter picked up the baby and I feel asleep on the couch at 7:30 p.m. I didn't wake up until 5:30 this morning.
> 
> Now, my house this morning......


Yes EI,I am exhausted,I slept in today,got up at 3:30 am.I only spent six hours at work today but it was heavy lifting for the day.
Not much sleep this week at all.
I have something to come clean about.
A few months ago I left work early for a doctor appointmen,if you remember I saw the POS coming out of McDonalds and went after him,he ran again,third time I saw him since all this crap.
The next day I created a fake fb account and messaged him,telling him to stop running and face me for all his threats,the false things he said about my wife,my kids and for taunting me for almost a year.
I never heard back from him til yeserday,he messaged me with the same crap he has said in the past.
His reply was more digusting stuff and full of lies like before.
Yes I know I should'nt have done that a few months ago but I want his ass so bad.
All it did was set us back.
I won't do it again but if I get him cornered one day I feel I would be justified in jacking his jaw a few times for every thing he did and said and I will.
Its so hard still sometimes to understand how CSS wanted him over me,I don't get it,never will.
I need to work harder on our R but I don't have much energy left,I feel like I'm climbing a moutain with 100lbs strapped to my back.
How could I be tossed aside so easily? For what? Him?? How could CSS not see past him? 
How could she do this? She turned a nut job lose on me.
I feel I am justified in calling it quits but I won't yet,or ever hopefully.
Life isn't cracked up to be what I thought it would be,I can handle a lot but this?
I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

Calvin, I don't think it helps to think in terms of her wanting him over you. I don't think that's exactly correct. I think it's more correct to say that for awhile, like my WS says, she "wasn't thinking straight."

It's like an addiction. It pulls them like a shiny toy draws a kid. When they're in that state, they aren't thinking clearly.

Now, when they are thinking more clearly, our WS's KNOW who they choose - it's a no brainer. But when they were whack, they went astray. Don't think that she "chose" him over you back then. It gives him power - don't give it to him. He's not worth getting into trouble over. He's not worth wasting your time and energy over.


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> How could I be tossed aside so easily? For what? Him?? How could CSS not see past him?


Calvin, I could be way off base, but maybe you're thinking a little like my betrayed here? Comparing yourself to the other and wondering why your spouse chose him "over" you. In my own personal experience (and from what I've seen of other remorseful waywards), it's in no way a value judgment as to the worth of the spouse or how much he/she is valued by the wayward. 

I have to tell you, my EAs were with people that couldn't even approach being awesome like GF is. In fact, they were really sh!tty people that I would never have chosen to commit to, people I'd never trust or choose for a serious relationship. It wasn't about them being better or worth more to me than my GF at all, though she understandably felt that way about it. If anything, it was about me and my flaws and issues.

I apologize if I totally misinterpreted or am out of bounds here.


----------



## SomedayDig

Calvin...

Who's she with right now?

F-ck what happened. Yeah, it was down right sh-t behavior. So was Regret f'ng some guy in my basement for a year and then f'ng him for another 4 after that and coming home and kissing me hello.

Guess what? It still bums me out and pisses me off to no end. But she knows she f'd up. She's worked a TON to prove herself to me. I get a mind movie spaz every month or so and I toss it the f-ck down the road cuz that ain't her RIGHT NOW. That WAS what she was doing...not what she IS doing.

You gotta trust that sh-t now and if it blows up in your face THEN you walk. Until then, if you're saying you wanna be with CSS then f'ng be with her. NOW. Not then. Then is over, bro. It's f'ng gone and we ain't ever gonna be able to figure it out. Let go and be with some peace.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Calvin, CSS maintains NC. IMO, you need to as well. Don't give him any opening into your lives. That door is shut, locked, bricked over, and buried. Get rid of that FB account and any other avenue so you are not tempted to "just check and see". Forward. That's where you and CSS are going, and there's no room for dead weight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Calvin, just ignore the clown, the coward.


----------



## CantSitStill

I believe Calvin has gone through stages. Stage1. He fought for me back. Stage 2. He blamed all of it on the ex om. Stage 3 he realized it was my fault also, next he was shocked. Next he was ready to call it quits, next he was ready to work on us, next is he is angry that we are in this position in the first place. He thru all the stages has wanted to kill the ex om the whole time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Calvin,
I cant add anymore to what everyone has said, so LIke LIke Like etc.

I think you need to question your "right" to jack his jaw.

That will cost you much more than it is worth!!!

I encourage you to make a committment to yourself that you will not assult him!

The best revenge you can have is to leave him alone to be the piece of human debris that he is.

If he every rises above that he will come to you.

His ego is feed by you threatning him, he feels like you feel he is a threat to your relationship.

Listen my man, CSS has her head on straight, she knows where she belongs.

Forget him he ia a worm!!

CSS's failure was to think making herself happy outside of marriage in an immoral way was ok, she chose badly, and with regard to the worm chose poorly, thank God. She did not give that choice the due dilligence that a honorable relationship deserves and requires, i.e. in picking a good life partner. She was runnung from her own unhappiness. 

Yes it was immature, wrong headed, immoral, desperate, she found out things about herself she does not like. Building character is like molded clay, it is shaped by time and pressure, she is shaping her character in response to this in a way it should have been all along. Thank God she realizes it and is applying that time and pressure.

You are allowing her to rise above those character flaws, thats huge, and it matters now and in eternity. Thank you for being so kind to one of God's precious daughters!

Listen anyone of us could leave our partners and find someone else to be happy with, you could, I could, my wife could, and so could CSS, thats life and biology!

Cheating is a poison pill to a relationship and the worm is already a toxic, poison individual.
Not marriage material!!

I have told my wife when we were younger that if anything ever happened to me I would want her to find someone else and to be happy without any guilt, thats life and thats love.


Reconciliation means that after she got her thinking right, her moral standards right, her heart right, she wants to do the hard work of making it work with you!


----------



## bfree

Calvin, let me ask you a question. Do you think I'm a fairly intelligent man? Does it seem like I care for people? Do you believe I treat women with honor and respect?

Guess what?

Before I "healed" I was the biggest jerk you would ever want to meet. I was an alcoholic. I was a drug user. I purposely picked fights with people just because I wanted to lash out. I was not only a womanizer I was a pump and dumper. I bedded women that also used drugs. I had sex with hookers and strippers. Frankly I didn't care. I treated people like crap. I used people, especially women. I was exactly the kind of man you would love to punch in the face. In short, I was not in my right mind at all. I wasn't like this growing up. I haven't been like this since. But for a period of a few years this was me. I'm not proud of it. I've gone back and apologized to everyone I could find that I hurt. It was a time in my life when I was....well there's no other way to say it....batsh!t crazy.

CSS was like this for a short time. But like me she woke up and realized the destruction she was causing. Don't see her as "that" person any more than you see me as "that" person. Its not how we fall but how we get back up that matters.


----------



## calvin

Thanks all,I'm still trying.
See what happens,I don't feel I'm bound to have to make this work.
I didn't do this but I guess I'm still in the game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I deleted the account after a few choice words with him,he is human garbage.
I never ran across such a lying coward.
If he cared so much so CSS why would he say what he did about her to me?
He did'nt know if I would be the type to believe him and slap her around.
No,I have never hit a woman,stopped quite a few men from doing that but I was not raised like that.
Nothing physical happend but if I was to believe him CSS was the town slvt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Alls I wanna say is he is a nasty ****. I have talked to his girlfriend from the time he and I were talking. He had a few girlfriends at once. Akkk she should get tested for STDs. Also, when we told her about the ex om and me she confronted him and he told her we met at a bar and he didn't know I was married...lol ok
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Oops forgot that slvt was a bad word
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

You and calvin have so much going for you that neither of you should devote one brain cell to this piece of garbage. He is insignificant.


----------



## CantSitStill

True
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> I deleted the account after a few choice words with him,he is human garbage.
> I never ran across such a lying coward.
> If he cared so much so CSS why would he say what he did about her to me?
> He did'nt know if I would be the type to believe him and slap her around.
> No,I have never hit a woman,stopped quite a few men from doing that but I was not raised like that.
> Nothing physical happend but if I was to believe him CSS was the town slvt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, that was probably his plan. You hit CSS, then she would have turned to him for comfort and support. And before you both had realised the truth, your marriage and family would have been history.

Why didn't his plan work? You were a real man.


----------



## calvin

Yes bfree you're a smart and good dude,strang to hear you say what you used to be like.
M&M,whent I kicked CSS out he was all worried about her losing the house,incredible.
I should'nt have even responded but too late,he knows he gets under my skin but I know he's scared sh!tless of me,he won't do a face to face but he has big balls when he text.
He did tell me he just got a 40k/year raise,maybe he can buy a moped now and get a sleeping room..
Who the hell gets an 18 dollar an hour raise???
He did say his life sucks still
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> Yes bfree you're a smart and good dude,strang to hear you say what you used to be like.
> M&M,whent I kicked CSS out he was all worried about her losing the house,incredible.
> I should'nt have even responded but too late,he knows he gets under my skin but I know he's scared sh!tless of me,he won't do a face to face but he has big balls when he text.
> He did tell me he just got a 40k/year raise,maybe he can buy a moped now and get a sleeping room..
> Who the hell gets an 18 dollar an hour raise???
> He did say his life sucks still
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin,

The POSOM is so full of sh!t the town dump is going to start operating off of his property.

Bfree is right. That jerk does not deserve any of your Brain space.

What would Louis do Calvin?

Ignore him.

Focus on you.
Focus on your marriage.
Focus on your family.

Nothing else matters.

HM


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Calvin,
> 
> The POSOM is so full of sh!t the town dump is going to start operating off of his property.
> 
> Bfree is right. That jerk does not deserve any of your Brain space.
> 
> What would Louis do Calvin?
> 
> Ignore him.
> 
> Focus on you.
> Focus on your marriage.
> Focus on your family.
> 
> Nothing else matters.
> 
> HM


Yes Hm,what would Louis do? I know the answer.It was dumb of me and won't happen again,the tast of revenge does remind me of how Louis wanted to killed the bird then he would feel better but he came to his senses.
I have some work to do on not wanting to make his dentures a trophy on my shelf.
Dentures? Wow.
Me and CSS just spent a couple hours outside sitting close,very nice.
I'm getting there just not as fast as some others.
He lost,I won.
I have the pretty girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> Yes Hm,what would Louis do? I know the answer.I was dumb of me and won't happen again,the tast of revenge does remind me of how if Louis killed the bird then he would feel better but he came to his senses.
> I have some work to do on not wanting to make his dentures a trophy on my shelf.
> Dentures? Wow.
> Me and CSS just spent a couple hours outside sitting close,very nice.
> I'm getting there just not as fast as some others.
> He lost,I won.
> I have the pretty girl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You did win.

And CSS is more than pretty. 

And just remember why the OM butt still hurts.......


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> You did win.
> 
> And CSS is more than pretty.
> 
> And just remember why the OM butt still hurts.......


I think he went to prison for a good time!
Who the hell would admit that on their own?
Oh well,hell with him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Our ups and downs are so extreme...I have got to get better control of my emotions. I have allowed this crap to make me so sick and lose weight. I need to remind myself that his triggers will pass. Was I hurt that he contacted him after he promised he never would? a........little disappointed because I knew it meant going through his triggers again, but I don't have the right to tell him what to do or be upset with him. Calvin, I love you no matter what and I will never leave. I love you like crazy honey. I will always be by your side 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Bfree wow wow wow...can't imagine you being such a jerk! Glad you changed and also glad you have been here to help us. Happyman, thank you again for sending us that book. I have not read it but there must be something about it that's helping Calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I forget that I'm in R,not maybe R.
I have work too do yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

calvin said:


> I forget that I'm in R,not maybe R.
> I have work too do yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No you don't. You are letting this guy play you and get the better of you.

He had nothing to lose and you do.

You have the girl and the only way you will not is if you are dumb enough to let her go.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> No you don't. You are letting this guy play you and get the better of you.
> 
> He had nothing to lose and you do.
> 
> You have the girl and the only way you will not is if you are dumb enough to let her go.


I know,I have known that for awhile but I let my emotions get the best of me.
When some one threatens to come to your house and do things too your wife a few times,well for a year a person wants to rip the offenders head off and quiet him forever.
The reason I admitted this on the R thread was because I know I'd be tempted to go back and try to cut him down and make sure I insulted him enough so I could get him to let me beat his ass,I mean he pretty much asked for it.
I let everyone here know what I did so you guys would stop me.
You guys have.
Thank you,me and CSS are having a good evening.Many more coming.
Glad I told you all about that,keeps me from doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> I know,I have known that for awhile but I let my emotions get the best of me.
> When some one threatens to come to your house and do things too your wife a few times,well for a year a person wants to rip the offenders head off and quiet him forever.
> The reason I admitted this on the R thread was because I know I'd be tempted to go back and try to cut him down and make sure I insulted him enough so I could get him to let me beat his ass,I mean he pretty much asked for it.
> I let everyone here know what I did so you guys would stop me.
> You guys have.
> Thank you,me and CSS are having a good evening.Many more coming.
> Glad I told you all about that,keeps me from doing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Amen brother. I hate when the bad guys win. This piss ant will get his again. 

He is not worth a second of your time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

I sorry to say this I went off on WH. I want to have fun tonight, I want answers. He says what I lost was a bad marriage and now he's looking to rebuild with me. Hello isn't there something wrong with this? How can we rebuild anything if he doesn't take responsibility for his choice? Says I'm mad at everything don't matter what anyone says or does I'm still mad. I'll never be happy with anything. I quit......... It's Saturday night.. Taxes are still due for the corporation 5/15 taking the whole thing to accountant and dumping it in their lap. The bar is now open and it's a party weekend. Opps I need new jeans going shopping!!!!!!
*
Happy Cinco de Mayo*:rant::rant::rant::rant::rant:


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> Amen brother. I hate when the bad guys win. This piss ant will get his again.
> 
> He is not worth a second of your time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's his own worst enemy,he is where he's at by his own hand.
I don't need to worry about him,he's doing a good job of doing himself in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> He's his own worst enemy,he is where he's at by his own hand.
> I don't need to worry about him,he's doing a good job of doing himself in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do not let him take you down with him. Who cares what he says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

jupiter13 said:


> I sorry to say this I went off on WH. I want to have fun tonight, I want answers. He says what I lost was a bad marriage and now he's looking to rebuild with me. Hello isn't there something wrong with this? How can we rebuild anything if he doesn't take responsibility for his choice? Says I'm mad at everything don't matter what anyone says or does I'm still mad. I'll never be happy with anything. I quit......... It's Saturday night.. Taxes are still due for the corporation 5/15 taking the whole thing to accountant and dumping it in their lap. The bar is now open and it's a party weekend. Opps I need new jeans going shopping!!!!!!
> *
> Happy Cinco de Mayo*:rant::rant::rant::rant::rant:


Be careful out there. In your state of mind, shopping might be a wiser option than the bar would be tonight....... It's time to tell your WH that if he's really interested in rebuilding a new marriage with you, that it begins with asking how he can help you.... Not how you can make this easier for him.....


----------



## CantSitStill

EI, I believe that was the shortest post I've ever seen you write. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> EI, I believe that was the shortest post I've ever seen you write. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She must be sick,I'm worried.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

I just wanted to share with you guys that 23 years ago today, B1 and I became parents for the first time when I gave birth to our oldest son. We named him Joshua. He is one of the greatest joys in my life. I truly cannot imagine a "job" that pays greater dividends than parenting. I also cannot imagine one of more importance or with a more lasting legacy. Raising five children hasn't been easy, but I can honestly say that for me there is no greater blessing in the whole world than to hear my child call out the sweetest name I've ever known........ "Mom!" 

Happy 23rd Birthday, my sweet baby boy! I love you so very, very much! <3


B1 thank you for helping me create three beautiful sons. Thank you, again, for opening your heart and making room for two more precious children. Any man can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father. But, I think it takes an extraordinary man to raise another man's children and to truly love them as if they were his own flesh and blood. I love you so very much.........


(Disclaimer: for any newbies on this thread. We adopted my biological niece and nephew....... )


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> EI, I believe that was the shortest post I've ever seen you write. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





calvin said:


> She must be sick,I'm worried.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, okay........ I'm slipping..... But, I've written some doozies this week....... Cut me some slack!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> I just wanted to share with you guys that 23 years ago today, B1 and I became parents for the first time when I gave birth to our oldest son. We named him Joshua. He is one of the greatest joys in my life. I truly cannot imagine a "job" that pays greater dividends than parenting. I also cannot imagine one of more importance or with a more lasting legacy. Raising five children hasn't been easy, but I can honestly say that for me there is no greater blessing in the whole world than to hear my child call out the sweetest name I've ever known........ "Mom!"
> 
> Happy 23rd Birthday, my sweet baby boy! I love you so very, very much! <3
> 
> 
> B1 thank you for helping me create three beautiful sons. Thank you, again, for opening your heart and making room for two more precious children. Any man can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father. But, I think it takes an extraordinary man to raise another man's children and to truly love them as if they were his own flesh and blood. I love you so very much.........
> 
> 
> (Disclaimer: for any newbies on this thread. We adopted my biological niece and nephew....... )


Happy B day to your son EI and B1.
Three boys? Hmmm. I need help with yard work and such.
Trade you a daughter for two of your boys?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Wait.How much do they eat??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Happy B day to your son EI and B1.
> Three boys? Hmmm. I need help with yard work and such.
> Trade you a daughter for two of your boys?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





calvin said:


> Wait.How much do they eat??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, right!  We love our girl..... Nothing in the world like a sweet baby girl! Everybody should have ONE..... But, just ONE... That's all B1 could handle. Her teen years cost him every hair on his head.  As far as the boys and grass cutting......... good luck with that......... We'll send 'em all up for the summer...... Let us know how it works out for ya... 

Even with our daughter and our oldest "bio" son out on their own, our grocery bill is still about $1,200 a month. Everybody comes "home" on Sunday. Daughter brings hubby and baby and the boys' girlfriends come over, too! 

The car insurance was over $900 a month, yes a MONTH, at one point..... Youthful males are expensive to feed and to insure.


----------



## calvin

Wow EI!
Ok,I'm buying goats,they can eat the grass and I can cook them.
After Bandit gets to use them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Girls are harder to discipline yet are more fun because of their personalities. Boys seem a lot easier to raise because they are so sweet, more quiet and not drama queens. I'm thankful to have one of each.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

calvin said:


> After Bandit gets to use them.


????????????????


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By EI*
> I just wanted to share with you guys that 23 years ago today, B1 and I became parents for the first time when I gave birth to our oldest son. We named him Joshua. He is one of the greatest joys in my life. I truly cannot imagine a "job" that pays greater dividends than parenting. I also cannot imagine one of more importance or with a more lasting legacy. Raising five children hasn't been easy, but I can honestly say that for me there is no greater blessing in the whole world than to hear my child call out the sweetest name I've ever known........ "Mom!"
> 
> Happy 23rd Birthday, my sweet baby boy! I love you so very, very much! <3
> 
> 
> B1 thank you for helping me create three beautiful sons. Thank you, again, for opening your heart and making room for two more precious children. Any man can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father. But, I think it takes an extraordinary man to raise another man's children and to truly love them as if they were his own flesh and blood. I love you so very much.........
> 
> 
> (Disclaimer: for any newbies on this thread. We adopted my biological niece and nephew....... )


The name Joshua is of Hebrew origin. 
The meaning of Joshua is "G-d is salvation". 

Happy Birthday Joshua!!!
I know I am one day late for your time zone but here in Arizona it is still your birthday. In my family we sometimes listen to the song below on birthdays. This is for you JOSH!
Las Mañanitas - Vincente Fernandez (English Lyrics) - YouTube


PS
My youngest son is named Joshua Joseph and his birthday was last week

EI ands B1
I know the troubles that you have had in the last 5-10 years. I am totally awe struck that you two have demonstrated such dedication and you both are parents that have stuck by your children through thick and thin. Now don’t start thinking, yeah but did you know that I failed…….. . *What I know is that you two have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that your children mean the world to you and that was not just in words, your have proved it by actions for 23 YEARS!!!!*

EI, I love your line of 


> "Any man can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father. But, I think it takes an extraordinary man to raise another man's children and to truly love them as if they were his own flesh and blood."


“And if that isn't love
Then the ocean is dry
There's no stars in the sky
And the little sparrows can't fly
Yeah if that isn't love
Then heaven's a myth
There's no feeling like this
If that isn't love”

B1 and EI you have been hit with the nuclear bombs of marriage and family life and you are still standing and loving. If I ever get knocked down and can not get up I am going to call you two, OK?


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> Happy B day to your son EI and B1.
> Three boys? Hmmm. I need help with yard work and such.
> Trade you a daughter for two of your boys?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was thinking the same thing Calvin. I have 3 girls and could have used one son.

Mrs Happy reminds that if we play our cards right we will have 3 great son in laws.

Time will tell.......


----------



## B1

Mr B,
Yes, we have been hit by multiple nukes over the last 5-10 years...
Yes, we are still standing. Looking back, I can't believe we are still standing and are still together. We have had back to back crises for the last 10 years. Our counselor has said more than once we should write a book. He has also said, more than once, that its a true miracle we are still together.

I think we ALL have crises that we do overcome. We all have, more to the story, than we share here. 

So, to everyone who's struggling right now with more than an A, my hats off to you. It's not easy, we know. Sometimes life just keeps dishing out the hard stuff, it seems endless sometimes. All I can say is hang in there, it does pass, and you will survive it. 

As far as calling on us Mr. B you bet  but if I don't answer right away, fear not, I'm probably calling on you or someone else here for help too ;-)

As you may have noticed I am keeping a distance right now from tam. Trying to see if I trigger less. And I have been doing better. Not sure if its less tam related or not, so I'm easing back into it a little. I can say the intensity of the pain isn't what it was a month ago, and the frequency of images\movies have calmed way down. I often find my self thinking about many other things now, not just the A. It's nice.

The tears are also fewer now, mainly because, like I said, the intensity of the pain seems less. I am coming off the couch more, getting restless, wanting to do more beside focus on the a. I feel I am definitely transitioning to a different stage, not sure what that is though. 

Anyway, I hope everyone has a happy Sunday.


----------



## calvin

Wazza said:


> ????????????????


The goats
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Happy belated bday to Joshua! It's a wonderful thing to see your children grow up. We're so proud of our girls, all grown up and on their own. 

I can hardly wait to see how this little boy turns out. He's already showing himself to be charming, sweet and a total bundle of energy that we can hardly keep up!


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of B1
> As you may have noticed I am keeping a distance right now from tam. Trying to see if I trigger less. And I have been doing better. Not sure if its less tam related or not, so I'm easing back into it a little. I can say the intensity of the pain isn't what it was a month ago, and the frequency of images\movies have calmed way down. I often find my self thinking about many other things now, not just the A. It's nice.
> 
> The tears are also fewer now, mainly because, like I said, the intensity of the pain seems less. I am coming off the couch more, getting restless, wanting to do more beside focus on the a. I feel I am definitely transitioning to a different stage, not sure what that is though.



*What a great victory!!	What great encouragement!*
Isn’t it great that someone is kicking Mr. Infidelity right in the AZZ!

B1, you should have been the main character in the ROCKY movies!!!

I miss your posts on TAM but your recovery is so very much more important.
What you wrote above, as Winston Churchill would say, Warms the Kockles of my heart!


----------



## CantSitStill

B1 that's the reason we aren't on as much, it's a trigger to be here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

The comments about triggering don't surprise me. I am further along and TAM still does that to me, though not all that badly.

My theory is that TAM has many more divorces than reconciliations for that exact reason. Reconciling means, at some stage, leaving TAM to clear your head.

In fact, the reason I joined at all was B1, and I think in this very thread. B1 asked for examples of successful reconciliation and no one spoke up. It was a shock for me.

I know there are others now, but I also see there is more reason for those who have sad endings to hang around. They need the support.

Bottom line, don't look to TAM for statistics on the stuff. I'm pretty sure there is a huge negative bias in the sample space.


----------



## calvin

Wazza said:


> The comments about triggering don't surprise me. I am further along and TAM still does that to me, though not all that badly.
> 
> My theory is that TAM has many more divorces than reconciliations for that exact reason. Reconciling means, at some stage, leaving TAM to clear your head.
> 
> In fact, the reason I joined at all was B1, and I think in this very thread. B1 asked for examples of successful reconciliation and no one spoke up. It was a shock for me.
> 
> I know there are others now, but I also see there is more reason for those who have sad endings to hang around. They need the support.
> 
> Bottom line, don't look to TAM for statistics on the stuff. I'm pretty sure there is a huge negative bias in the sample space.


A lot of people hang around to help out others also,Tams is a huge help but it can bring you down.
I used to be on every waking moment but now I can leave it for hours and hours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Read the book Unbroken DD,I feel it will help you no matter what happens
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I understand DD and I'm glad you are being honest with us. I just hope in time you start to feel differently about her and your marriage but yes how you feel does make sense. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

The book Calvin is talking about is not a self help book or a book about marriage. It's about a guy that has bad things happen to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mtts

Wazza said:


> The comments about triggering don't surprise me. I am further along and TAM still does that to me, though not all that badly.
> 
> My theory is that TAM has many more divorces than reconciliations for that exact reason. Reconciling means, at some stage, leaving TAM to clear your head.
> 
> In fact, the reason I joined at all was B1, and I think in this very thread. B1 asked for examples of successful reconciliation and no one spoke up. It was a shock for me.
> 
> I know there are others now, but I also see there is more reason for those who have sad endings to hang around. They need the support.
> 
> Bottom line, don't look to TAM for statistics on the stuff. I'm pretty sure there is a huge negative bias in the sample space.


100% yes. It's not a great spot to sample for success. Not due to people making it through it or not. But it's like taking a sample of successful alochol recovery at a detox clinic. Likely those attending aren't going to be pictures of accomplishment. 

However I will say that sometimes TAM gives just the right balance of negative and positive in a situation to help you see both sides of the coin. One thing I've worked hard to do, be objective and stop letting my emotional bias infiltrate my posting.


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> The book Calvin is talking about is not a self help book or a book about marriage. It's about a guy that has bad things happen to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hm64 turned me onto that book,it mad quite a difference in the way I look at things.
Its not a relationship book but it is a book that every man should read.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> The book Calvin is talking about is not a self help book or a book about marriage. It's about a guy that has bad things happen to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is a book about a man that has many bad things happen to him during and after WW2.

And even with many obstacles, issues and addictions he overcomes all of them.

And he goes on to raise a family and help many teens/young adults throughout the course of his adult life.

He even goes back to Japan and confronts many f the prison guards that tortured him for years.

This man is 96 years old and still kicking butt.

All I will say is that this novel has made me rethink my life in many ways and has helped me focus on obstacles in my life in order o better my future as well As my families.

I highly recommend it to all of you.

It makes you believe in yourself.

HM64


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> It is a book about a man that has many bad things happen to him during and after WW2.
> 
> And even with many obstacles, issues and addictions he overcomes all of them.
> 
> And he goes on to raise a family and help many teens/young adults throughout the course of his adult life.
> 
> He even goes back to Japan and confronts many f the prison guards that tortured him for years.
> 
> This man is 96 years old and still kicking butt.
> 
> All I will say is that this novel has made me rethink my life in many ways and has helped me focus on obstacles in my life in order o better my future as well As my families.
> 
> I highly recommend it to all of you.
> 
> It makes you believe in yourself.
> 
> HM64


Very good Hm,its all true and the fact that Louis is still alive and more than kicking is an inspiration.
Thanks again Hm,damn good book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

calvin said:


> Very good Hm,its all true and the fact that Louis is still alive and more than kicking is an inspiration.
> Thanks again Hm,damn good book.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You deserved it Calvin. I am glad you enjoyed it as much as I did...


----------



## calvin

Goodnight all,I can get by on four hours of sleep yes?
Done it before,we'll see.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

DevastatedDad said:


> All that being said you are right about one thing.
> I am in a situation in which I have to figure out how to proceed.
> 
> I can never NOT be the kid whose parents ripped the floor out from under him and in my 11 year old phrasing "ruined my childhood"
> 
> And as the other poster mentioned, I will never NOT be a guy whose wife cheated on him.
> 
> And something that needs to be addressed is that I am healing. I am getting better. The relationship is not. I don't know if I am going to allow it to (everyone will pick up on that key phrasing I am sure) When I am out now doing my own thing, I tend to be pretty good. For a long time, I couldn't make myself go out and do anything.
> 
> So while this is a marriage forum and I say I am not in R and I can't forgive, that doesn't mean I am not getting better. I am doing comparatively well and with out the assistance of pills and minimal therapy.
> 
> Sorry to counter so much of your post. I am not feeling argumentative and not trying to fight you, I am just responding and there are places where you are right and there are places where you are not.


DD, if you divorce CM, would you marry again? (How will you pick better?) Or live without such a relationship? Where are you going?

I think you have more options than just rebuild the marriage and divorce. I stayed with Mrs Wazza for the sake of the kids. It happens to have turned out well, but if it hadn't , I could always have left once they became adults. 

For me marriage was originally going to be the panacea for all my loneliness, fears and insecurities, and when Mrs Wazza had the affair it all came flooding back. (We all have that stuff to greater or lesser degree). 

Ironically, learning to stand on my own two feet afterwards, and not need the marriage any more, is one of the things that made it much better for me.


----------



## soulpotato

Had a good weekend with GF.  She said she is liking the changes she is seeing in me and that she may be prepared to R with me in the not-too-distant future. Crossing my fingers that she continues to feel that way.


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## hopefulgirl

DD - I like what Racer said on messduplady's thread about being brokenhearted:



> I do my own mental tricks. A very hard one for me was the baggage I had in my head about what a marriage is and what I should expect. As such, I found myself always focusing and looking for “what it isn’t” and how it and my WW weren’t meeting those ideals. So, I redefined the relationship. It was easier for me to stop thinking we were married and holding it to those standards... That became the goal and the direction I (we) were striving for.
> 
> Instead, I think of it as just a complex relationship where this other person fills multiple ‘roles’ for me.. And I’d evaluate and judge based on those narrower roles. Mother, roommate, provider, lover, friend, etc. It helped me break it from ‘failing as a wife’ to the smaller roles of where I think we need improvement and what is really working quite well. I was able to see a lot more of "what is right" than focused on "what is wrong".


Since my WS isn't mentally healthy enough right now to really help me heal and go fully into R mode, I like this idea of not holding him up to the standard of "husband." I don't feel particularly close to him (since I don't feel I can safely share all the A stuff that goes through my head so much of the time) and I don't have a lot of trust in him yet, so a lower standard keeps me from feeling so disappointed. I just don't expect as much now. 

I hope to be able to expect more in the coming months, but that's down the line. This is a long road, and I know it.

I think divorce is a pretty drastic route to go, especially when kids are involved, so IMO it's better to try to do what you've done and at least see if you can work it out. That way you'll always know that at least you gave it your best shot. Time is a great healer, and from what I've read it takes about 2 years to start feeling semi-normal again.


----------



## hopefulgirl

soulpotato - Great news! Your efforts are paying off. 

In case it might be helpful to you, I will let you know that my WS and I did the Love Languages quiz shortly after D-Day and my WS started doing more helpful stuff around the house (my Love Language is acts of service) - but he has since slacked off. 

We BS's are VERY sensitive about this sort of thing! He was also apologizing frequently for the A, and he's doing that much less often now too. It's true that you can never apologize too much.

Best of luck to you and your GF - I hope she keeps liking what she sees.


----------



## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> soulpotato - Great news! Your efforts are paying off.
> 
> In case it might be helpful to you, I will let you know that my WS and I did the Love Languages quiz shortly after D-Day and my WS started doing more helpful stuff around the house (my Love Language is acts of service) - but he has since slacked off.
> 
> We BS's are VERY sensitive about this sort of thing! He was also apologizing frequently for the A, and he's doing that much less often now too. It's true that you can never apologize too much.
> 
> Best of luck to you and your GF - I hope she keeps liking what she sees.


Thank you! I'm trying not to get excited. 

Any and all suggestions are welcome, and BS perspectives are especially helpful. I'll try to get her to do the love languages quiz. I've read about the love languages before, and I think her major one is also acts of service, so I've been focusing on that. I'm sorry to hear that your WS has been slacking.  For me, the changes I'm making are permanent ones. I've realized that I was too casual and careless in our relationship before, and that if I get another chance at this, that's it. I've realized that I really can lose her and end up living a life without her if I don't do everything right. I can't mess it up again. I will definitely keep apologizing and working on me and meeting her needs. I've learned more about healthy relationships (not to mention what kills them and what makes them thrive) since we've been separated than I have in my entire life.

Thank you for the advice.  We actually looked at TAM together this weekend and talked again about my infidelity and my changes. Every time we talk about the betrayal(s), I make sure to let her know that I regret what I've done and that it's not going to happen again. When she worries that I'll backslide in the future, I tell her that I'm going to stay in therapy until the therapist kicks me out (lol), and that she (GF) is welcome to come in with me anytime she wants. Even after therapy is officially over, I will go back periodically for check-ups/check-ins. I'm committed to remaining mindful and being careful with GF and our possible future relationship together.

I can see why there would be that sensitivity. What BS wouldn't be afraid to see their WS drifting away from what they had hoped would be new, supportive habits? Because from there, it's not far to complacency and a return to the old ways, huh? Have you told your WS that he's sliding?


----------



## hopefulgirl

soulpotato - You are showing that you are truly trying to understand your GF's pain, which is essential for her healing and for moving forward. We generally feel that the waywards have only the vaguest idea of the pain and trauma that we experience. The more empathy you demonstrate, the more likely you two will make it. I really hope you do! 

The Love Languages quiz is online - a very interesting couples exercise. 

Thanks for asking about my WS's slacking. I haven't specifically pointed it out to him, but when I said I had grocery shopping plus a trip to the hardware store plus coloring my hair to do before I started cooking dinner on Sunday, he offered to go to the hardware store (he had video games and exercising on his list of things to do). I lit up, and let it show how pleased I was. 

Then I asked, as long as he was picking up the topsoil (the errand he was doing for me), which I needed to fill in a hole in the garden where I'd divided a large hosta plant, would he please put the soil in that spot for me.

Now, this is the response I got from a depressed, anxious man. "Yes, I will, but do you feel that because you have things to do that I should have things to do too?" I'm not making that up. He said he had worked on Saturday. Yes, he did. But he took Friday off because he was working on Saturday. I thought about saying that a lot of men do things around the house even though they worked the day before, but I kept my mouth shut. 

He is just not in a good place in terms of his mental health. I'm glad that he can even GO to work 5 days a week. 

It ended up that he never got out to go exercise. I was disappointed about that because he needs the exercise - it will help his mental state and help him lose weight. He did do the errand and 5 minutes of gardening. The rest of the day he played video games and watched TV, some of the latter with me - we had planned to watch a funny movie after dinner. But he got up during the middle of it because he didn't like it (did something online).

I have to choose times to have discussions with him when he's not so "fragile" and frankly, pathetic. When he exercises more regularly, he feels better, so I hope he'll try to get into an exercise habit like he had a year or so ago. Then we might have more opportunities to make progress.


----------



## Wazza

DevastatedDad said:


> I would never get married again. I would date and maybe lifelong girlfriend but I see no reason to get the authorities involved in my relationship. I am not going to have any more kids so nothing would need to be legal, formal, etc.
> 
> My counselor says "I can't tell you how many times I have heard men say I will not marry again and 2 years later they are in here for pre marital counseling" So who knows but I have always said I would only do this once.
> 
> 
> Question: I am in this for the kids right now but that is even starting to lose it's grip.
> 
> How long after staying for the kids before you started staying for other reasons?


Married, dating......I wasn't focused on the legal side of things. Though I agree with you by the way that the legal thing would no longer be important to me. I was more saying....you have been through a massive and irrevocable betrayal of trust. How would you handle that in future? How would you trust someone else?

This question changed my notions of how to heal. 

Other reasons....my timeline is not helpful to you, because I didn't have ANY resources. It was pre Internet. No decent books on the subject that I had any access to. I proposed counselling and Mrs Wazza dismisses in in no uncertain terms. So my healing was slow.

I threw myself into work. Five years out we were friends again but not emotionally intimate friends...and I fell in love with someone else. That someone was too decent a person to date a married man, otherwise I would probably have had an affair and who knows where it would have led. Not proud of it, but I was starving for love. 

However, I told my wife about that woman and we talked a bit about the marriage. The main conversation actually took place at a wedding out of town. We had the time to talk. The gist of things was that we both agreed our marriage had been a mistake....at least the timing and circumstances of it. That marked the first really honest conversation from both sides.

It grew slowly from there.

One big difference...the nature of the sexual encounters with OM. Wife lied and lied about what happened and then we stopped talking. I gave up. The sort of intelligence gathering you have was not available to me. I opened that question again late last year, and now have a story that may be true....no way to verify and I am not certain. So I have uncertainty where you have graphic evidence. I think I would swap places with you in a heartbeat on that one...but maybe it would change my decision.

Maybe not though. The betrayal...both physical and emotional...is certain. The exact nature of what they did physically is not central. I think I understand why it happened, and I think I can head a repeat off.

Have you thought mostly about what CM did, or have you considered why she did it?

I guess the only thing I can suggest is to get it all out....say what you think. Even the unpalatable things. 

And the way I describe all this sounds far more logical in hindsight than it was while living it.


----------



## ChangingMe

Wazza, thank you for your replies. 

Can I ask, in the 5 years before you two were "friends" again, what was the relationship like? How did you treat her? How did she treat or react to you? What impact do you think this had on your children?


----------



## Wazza

ChangingMe said:


> Wazza, thank you for your replies.
> 
> Can I ask, in the 5 years before you two were "friends" again, what was the relationship like? How did you treat her? How did she treat or react to you? What impact do you think this had on your children?


Mrs Wazza is very good at pretending nothing is wrong. That's what she did.

I am a moody SOB and was withdrawn. 

I threw myself into work, she threw herself into study and a part time job. We didn't see each other all that much, and at first the conversation was about the kids, bills, etc. We were lousy at talking about anything deep and lousy at making decisions together.

From things she said about me behind my back, it was clear that she hated me, or at least didn't think much of me.

I don't recommend this path, but it was the only one open to me. In retrospect I realise that both of us had ill formed notions of what relationships are, in different ways. 

Our sex life was not great before. It continued at the same low frequency, but was more about the physical act rather than making love.

The kids witnessed some of our fallout. For example, several times at first I walked in the door from work, looked at her, and walked out again. They were young at the time. I think it washed over them. We were there for them. I think their main memory is probably that Dad worked too many hours, but they don't know why. I don't think they know about the affair. I don't see a need to tell them.


----------



## bfree

DD, I'm not going to get into a debate about your marriage. Doing so would imply that I care more about your marriage than you do. And if I do then there are more issues than a forum like TAM can possibly address.

What I will say is that all throughout this process you continue to wax poetic about your old marriage. Sometimes it almost seems as if Jesus married Mother Theresa. All marriages have issues and just because you didn't argue, just because you "think" you had no serious issues doesn't mean they weren't there. However, I'll leave that issue aside because like I said its starting to seem like I care more than you do.

Instead allow me to state a few things that should be obvious but seem to be ignored. CM was on anti depressants when she had her affair am I correct? Why? Were there issues? I was pretty hard on her if I recall. But as I've read your posts and her posts and watched this situation unfold she seems to have proven to be a strong intelligent woman. She has done an extraordinary job working on herself and carrying the load. She certainly doesn't seem to be a broken woman to me. Yes, she made a very bad decision but she's owned it and grown stronger because of it. So I think if you say you may have made a bad choice in choosing her to marry I would vehemently disagree with that position. And if you should choose to end this marriage and go your separate ways what makes you think that you're going to find a better woman? A more trustworthy woman? I wouldn't take that bet if I were you.

I asked you what you have done to work on yourself and what you have done to rebuild your relationship with CM. You mention that you were traumatized at 11 years old. I hope you understand that this is no small matter. We often take these types of trauma into adulthood if they are not dealt with and hashed out. What have you done to deal with this obviously difficult period in your life? Do you realize that it might be this that is causing your difficulty in coming to terms with what CM did? You mention that you are healing but the relationship is not. In one sense that is good but I ask you what you are doing to help heal the relationship? You say that you are just staying for the children. Well if that is the case don't your children deserve your full effort at attempting to not only heal yourself but the relationship with their mother? Have you read any books on how to heal? Have you read any books on how to forgive? What about that book that calvin just read? Have you looked into that one? It takes two to help heal a relationship. I can see what CM has done. How about you?

The point is that you are keeping yourself in limbo. Nobody else. You. There are issues to be dealt with and unless I'm missing something I don't see them getting worked on. If you split up you are just going to carry those same issues into any new relationships you may have. And those women certainly aren't going to be more patient and understanding than your wife. I've seen men and women move from relationship to relationship never actually dealing with the issues that poison the well. There is so much out there that you can do to help yourself. You have so much at your disposal. Why are you just sitting around letting these negative feelings fester and rot your soul?


----------



## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> soulpotato - You are showing that you are truly trying to understand your GF's pain, which is essential for her healing and for moving forward. We generally feel that the waywards have only the vaguest idea of the pain and trauma that we experience. The more empathy you demonstrate, the more likely you two will make it. I really hope you do!


I'll never really know the full extent of what I've put her through or how it feels for her, but I'll keep trying to understand as much as possible. You're right, I'm sure that the pain I've felt is only a shadow of what she must be going through, and has already been through with me.  Thank you! I really appreciate your encouragement.



hopefulgirl said:


> The Love Languages quiz is online - a very interesting couples exercise.
> 
> Thanks for asking about my WS's slacking. I haven't specifically pointed it out to him, but when I said I had grocery shopping plus a trip to the hardware store plus coloring my hair to do before I started cooking dinner on Sunday, he offered to go to the hardware store (he had video games and exercising on his list of things to do). I lit up, and let it show how pleased I was.
> 
> Then I asked, as long as he was picking up the topsoil (the errand he was doing for me), which I needed to fill in a hole in the garden where I'd divided a large hosta plant, would he please put the soil in that spot for me.
> 
> Now, this is the response I got from a depressed, anxious man. "Yes, I will, but do you feel that because you have things to do that I should have things to do too?" I'm not making that up. He said he had worked on Saturday. Yes, he did. But he took Friday off because he was working on Saturday. I thought about saying that a lot of men do things around the house even though they worked the day before, but I kept my mouth shut.


Thank you for the information on the quiz!

*"Yes, I will, but do you feel that because you have things to do that I should have things to do too?"*

^^ And your answer should be...."YES!"  It's a "we", not a "you or me/you vs me". So long as you have work to do, so does he.

...I think I see how your WH is thinking here. He's acting like it's some kind of transaction between two different financial institutions, only the values are assigned and measured by him and not even standardized. He should help you until everything is done. I'm ashamed to say that it reminds me of how I was in the last year before GF and I (physically) separated. I became petty and miserly and worried about how much I was giving. I concerned myself with how much I thought she was giving and constantly worried that _I'd_ get taken advantage of. IMAGINE. It sounds ridiculous now, and it was very unfair to her. 

I've read somewhere (was it from Glass' book?) that the cheaters are often the ones who haven't given enough to the relationship/their spouse. Ah ha, I found it on her website: "The truth is that the unfaithful partner may not be giving enough. In fact, the spouse who gives too little is more at risk than the spouse who gives too much because he or she is less invested." (It's about midway through the introduction page.) Has your WH read that book yet?

Also something that might be relevant is the giver/taker thing and the three states of mind in marriage from the Marriage Builders site. I found them helpful to read. I wonder if he would, too.



hopefulgirl said:


> He is just not in a good place in terms of his mental health. I'm glad that he can even GO to work 5 days a week.
> 
> It ended up that he never got out to go exercise. I was disappointed about that because he needs the exercise - it will help his mental state and help him lose weight. He did do the errand and 5 minutes of gardening. The rest of the day he played video games and watched TV, some of the latter with me - we had planned to watch a funny movie after dinner. But he got up during the middle of it because he didn't like it (did something online).
> 
> I have to choose times to have discussions with him when he's not so "fragile" and frankly, pathetic. When he exercises more regularly, he feels better, so I hope he'll try to get into an exercise habit like he had a year or so ago. Then we might have more opportunities to make progress.


That is a lot of stress on you.  Always worrying about what's best for him and which time would be least upsetting for him...quite backwards in your situation! You are very good to him. I wish I could tell him that life doesn't wait for us to feel better or more prepared! He has a lot more to lose even now, only he doesn't seem to realize it. 

Do the two of you ever exercise together, like going on bike rides, taking walks, or swimming?


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thanks for the going for a walk together suggestion soulpotato - I suggested it after dinner tonight, and we went! :smthumbup:

I may not get some chores done (he doesn't help much around the house) but too bad.

After his serious medical problems, he's had a hard time motivating himself to get back into exercising plus he needs a lot more sleep - not to mention his mental health issues. (I'm not sure if the sleep is really depression, though.)

I have Not Just Friends all highlighted for him so he doesn't even have to read the whole thing. It's sitting in his bathroom, and he admits he's barely read any of it. I asked him to start at Chapter 4 (Discovery) so he wouldn't even feel like he had to read the whole thing. He's hardly read any highlighted parts of Ch 4 even.

And yes, I have thought more than once about the passage where Glass says the person who gives less is less invested and more likely to stray - I think it's quite true in our case. 

His counselor was gone this last week; each week his misses therapy I can tell there's a difference. He doesn't seem to "work" as hard on himself. I think he gets homework, and needs someone riding herd on a weekly basis. 

When he doesn't do his own exercise, I'll keep up the walking together. The dishes and laundry may pile up, but that's OK - better that his mood starts to improve! Thanks again for the great suggestion.


----------



## soulpotato

You're welcome! Glad you were able to get him up and moving. I've always enjoyed walks with GF, and they're good for both exercising AND talking/QT. I think the walking is probably worth some missed chores. 

OMG, he needs to just read the damned book already. Have you told him how important it is to you that he reads it? 

I think that passage is true in a lot of cases, mine too. I thought I was giving enough, but I wasn't. I was less invested because I was too afraid to completely commit, but less invested is less invested and it shows. 

Ugh, I missed therapy with my primary therapist last week too because my therapist was away. Maybe they went to the same seminar! I wonder if you should try to assign homework/reading to your H, make him accountable when he's not with the therapist. He reads something (within a certain timeframe), you two discuss when he finishes a chapter. Or something like that. Could be a bad idea, I don't know. You don't need something else to worry about that requires follow-up! Might end up being more annoying than helpful for you. He needs to become more independent about that sort of thing.

Oh, you're welcome. I hope it helps.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Single Malt said:


> For me it means something that won't happen once infidelity enters the picture.


SM - this thread is about couples who have faced this and are either reconciled, reconciling, or considering reconciling. We respect that you have your thoughts on this subject but unless you are in one of those categories, it's not appropriate to post something outside of that spirit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Single Malt

TCSRedhead said:


> SM - this thread is about couples who have faced this and are either reconciled, reconciling, or considering reconciling. We respect that you have your thoughts on this subject but unless you are in one of those categories, it's not appropriate to post something outside of that spirit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well looks like the mods took care of it for you


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## lisab0105

TCSRedhead said:


> SM - this thread is about couples who have faced this and are either reconciled, reconciling, or considering reconciling. We respect that you have your thoughts on this subject but unless you are in one of those categories, it's not appropriate to post something outside of that spirit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually if just going by the OP's original post, single malt's reply fits in just fine. Yes, it turned into a clubhouse for those reconciling...but one would only know that if they read through every page.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

lisab0105 said:


> Actually if just going by the OP's original post, single malt's reply fits in just fine. Yes, it turned into a clubhouse for those reconciling...but one would only know that if they read through every page.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, when one sees an epic thread of this size, just read the first post only and make a comment? That seems kind of, I don't know...shallow? I don't know if that's the word. Then again, I guess when I read the first 2 pages its clear what was beginning to take shape here.


----------



## Single Malt

lisab0105 said:


> Actually if just going by the OP's original post, single malt's reply fits in just fine. Yes, it turned into a clubhouse for those reconciling...but one would only know that if they read through every page.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And there were no "categories" to adhere to. Just 4 possible definitions and then the question "What it means to you". My implied answer was "nothing" given a particular situation.

Oh well, whatever.


----------



## Single Malt

SomedayDig said:


> So, when one sees an epic thread of this size, just read the first post only and make a comment? That seems kind of, I don't know...shallow?


How many posts should I read before responding?


----------



## Almostrecovered

thanks for playing, here's the home version of R for you to take with you


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Single Malt said:


> How many posts should I read before responding?


Well for future reference I usually read the first couple of pages and the last couple of pages. I also try to read most if not all of the original poster's comments since they're the one that started the thread.


----------



## EI

I just now read the last few posts. Neither B1 nor I requested that Single Malt's original comment be removed. If the mods did remove it, then it must have been at the request of someone else or at their own discretion. I didn't find SM's original post to be offensive. Everyone is welcome to post here...... not just those who are reconciling. There are so many amazing individuals who post on this thread coming from all walks of life, each with their own unique story to tell. 

I think the true spirit of this thread, and what I believe sets it apart from some of the others, is that everyone is treated with respect and courtesy. Because of that, both the BS's and the WS's who post here are more willing to open up and share their own individual struggles as they are coping with infidelity. This gives us a unique opportunity to gain insight from one another that we might not have had otherwise. 

Single Malt's feelings about infidelity are his own, they are valid and they do represent a certain percentage of BS's for whom infidelity is an absolute deal breaker...... no questions asked. For a lurker reading this thread who is entertaining the idea of cheating, it might be the difference between crossing the line or putting on the breaks. SM did not "target" anyone here or berate them for their choices. He only stated his own opinion. That's fair enough.


----------



## old timer

EI said:


> Single Malt's feelings about infidelity are his own, they are valid and they do represent a certain percentage of BS's for whom infidelity is an absolute deal breaker...... no questions asked. For a lurker reading this thread who is entertaining the idea of cheating, it might be the difference between crossing the line or putting on the breaks. SM did not "target" anyone here or berate them for their choices. He only stated his own opinion. That's fair enough.


Well said, EI

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I wasn't going to bash Single Malt. I had this overwhelming urge to post a smart azz remark like I did when Furious George posted. I was desperately holding my tongue because I figured I would get banned again. I thank the moderators for removing the temptation.


----------



## SomedayDig




----------



## EI

old timer said:


> Well said, EI





bfree said:


> I wasn't going to bash Single Malt. I had this overwhelming urge to post a smart azz remark like I did when Furious George posted. I was desperately holding my tongue because I figured I would get banned again. I thank the moderators for removing the temptation.





SomedayDig said:


>


Boys 

TESTOSTERONE....... A blessing and a curse!  

EI..... Indirectly reaping the benefits of Testosterone since June, 2012. 

Now, can you fellas behave yourself? I'm trying to take a little break......


----------



## Single Malt

EI said:


> SM did not "target" anyone here or berate them for their choices.


Exactly, and I never would. Thank you EI. I guess what I don't understand is, if my post was removed because it didn't relate EXACTLY to the first post, which I believe it did, then there's a whole lot of cleaning up to do here because the last couple pages especially are full of completely unrelated posts.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Single Malt,

You are absolutely entitled to your beliefs and choosing the path forward that is best for you and your situation. I see from reading some of you posts on other threads that you have chosen to file for divorce and seek a new life. I wish you nothing but happiness and healthiness as you pursue this new path. I am truly sorry that your wife made the decisions that she did and that you have had to deal with the painful consequences. It sucks and it's never fair or deserved. 

I am curious though. When you came to this thread and posted, what was the motivation behind your post? What reaction did you hope to get? I must admit that it did feel a bit antagonistic. You must have known that many people on a thread like this would be working to reconcile. And to post such an immediate black and white statement as you did could certainly be interpreted as you passing judgement on the foolishness of reconciling.

I think that is why some others have responded in a defensive manner. I think many people in this thread have come to value the collective focus on healing and moving their lives forward. Some through divorce and others through reconciliation. Again, no judgement on either path.

I know others on this thread will likely be rolling their eyes and muttering "here he goes again", but I would challenge you to honestly ask yourself what motivated you to come to this thread and post that comment? Sometimes our subconscious can cause us to act out in ways that we don't pause to think about. And when we do pause to think about it, understanding the deeper motivation can lead to an insight into ourselves and significant personal growth.

I feel a lot of anger in your posts (not just on this thread, i spent dome time looking at your other posts). Anger at your STBXW, anger at your situation. Very justified anger, by the way. But this anger will continue to eat away at you until you can put it down and walk away. 

I wish you nothing but continued healing and future happiness.


----------



## bfree

Single Malt said:


> Exactly, and I never would. Thank you EI. I guess what I don't understand is, if my post was removed because it didn't relate EXACTLY to the first post, which I believe it did, then there's a whole lot of cleaning up to do here because the last couple pages especially are full of completely unrelated posts.


Shhhhhh. Don't make the mods angry. You wouldn't like them when they're angry.


----------



## CantSitStill

Ok well this thread has welcomed all of us to talk about and ask othets questions about our own situations and well yes we do get on topics like tattoos or peanut butter or whatever but that is because B1 who started this thread said we may. It's been pretty much open to all as long as everyone is respectful. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It always comes back to the original topic of us talking about reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

Well, I didn't even see the post in question so I can't really comment on it.

But I will say that I understand the anger of any BS. Though I never acted out physically, I have pictured myself beating on my WS's chest and saying "What the he** were you THINKING?? Who the he** ARE you?? How could you LIE to me like that?? Repeatedly?? And how could you have sex with her AND with me and NOT use a condom!! You thoughtless A**hole!! What if I came down with a disease?? Or TWO??" (I was REALLY scared in the early days about that, before the test results came back - and we may not know about HPV for many months or years, and if I do end up with it we won't know for sure if he passed it to me from her but I WILL wonder....)

Anyway, I GET the anger. And I'm one who really, truly wants to move forward into R and has hope for a better future. I'm only 3 months past D-Day, and I'm still hurtin' for certain. I want to heal, but boy, the anger is still a powerful part of this.


----------



## EI

hopefulgirl said:


> Well, I didn't even see the post in question so I can't really comment on it.
> 
> But I will say that I understand the anger of any BS. Though I never acted out physically, I have pictured myself beating on my WS's chest and saying "What the he** were you THINKING?? Who the he** ARE you?? How could you LIE to me like that?? Repeatedly?? And how could you have sex with her AND with me and NOT use a condom!! You thoughtless A**hole!! What if I came down with a disease?? Or TWO??" (I was REALLY scared in the early days about that, before the test results came back - and we may not know about HPV for many months or years, and if I do end up with it we won't know for sure if he passed it to me from her but I WILL wonder....)
> 
> Anyway, I GET the anger. And I'm one who really, truly wants to move forward into R and has hope for a better future. I'm only 3 months past D-Day, and I'm still hurtin' for certain. I want to heal, but boy, the anger is still a powerful part of this.



hopefulgirl, I feel hurt and angry for you just reading your words. 
And, I know that I can't truly begin to imagine the depths of your suffering. If I had the answers to your questions, I would give them to you. But, I can't answer for your husband. Because, as horrible as it sounds, although I had completely justified my actions to myself at the time, I can't come up with satisfactory answers to similar questions, myself..... because there aren't any. I have all kinds of answers...... But, none of them excuse what I did...... Not to B1..... not even to myself, not anymore.


----------



## calvin

Everyone will heal,it may be with your spouse,it may not but people do recover and heal from infidelity.
The main thing I have learned that to truely heal,it comes down to the WS,at least for me it does.
If they can recognize what they did and do everything in their power to fix it,then a successful R is very possible.
A WS cannot fix it,its how hard they try to repair it that makes a difference for me.
Trying to make amends and being true about it means the world of difference to me.
CSS really does understand the pain a BS has to go through,that made a huge impression on me.
I hope you all are in a decent place today.
God bless and good luck.
I think I heard a Robin.....trigger time.  its all good!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> I think I heard a Robin.....trigger time.  its all good!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


----------



## lisab0105

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Single Malt,
> 
> You are absolutely entitled to your beliefs and choosing the path forward that is best for you and your situation. I see from reading some of you posts on other threads that you have chosen to file for divorce and seek a new life. I wish you nothing but happiness and healthiness as you pursue this new path. I am truly sorry that your wife made the decisions that she did and that you have had to deal with the painful consequences. It sucks and it's never fair or deserved.
> 
> I am curious though. When you came to this thread and posted, what was the motivation behind your post? What reaction did you hope to get? I must admit that it did feel a bit antagonistic. You must have known that many people on a thread like this would be working to reconcile. And to post such an immediate black and white statement as you did could certainly be interpreted as you passing judgement on the foolishness of reconciling.
> 
> I think that is why some others have responded in a defensive manner. I think many people in this thread have come to value the collective focus on healing and moving their lives forward. Some through divorce and others through reconciliation. Again, no judgement on either path.
> 
> I know others on this thread will likely be rolling their eyes and muttering "here he goes again", but I would challenge you to honestly ask yourself what motivated you to come to this thread and post that comment? Sometimes our subconscious can cause us to act out in ways that we don't pause to think about. And when we do pause to think about it, understanding the deeper motivation can lead to an insight into ourselves and significant personal growth.
> 
> I feel a lot of anger in your posts (not just on this thread, i spent dome time looking at your other posts). Anger at your STBXW, anger at your situation. Very justified anger, by the way. But this anger will continue to eat away at you until you can put it down and walk away.
> 
> I wish you nothing but continued healing and future happiness.


I won't speak for single malt, but when I first posted in this thread, I read the OP's post and hit reply. I certainly didn't read through the pages and pages of replies because I figured it was TAMer's responding directly to his questions. I posted a smart @ss video of what reconciliation meant to me. When I went back, I realized that the topic has actually veered away from the OPer's questions, and into a thread about TAMer's journey in reconciliation. I wasn't being antagonistic. I was answering a question, which is exactly what SM was doing as well. As for members wanting to get bent out of shape because of what he posted, I think that is just silly. No offense, but I could clearly see what SM's intentions were.


----------



## SomedayDig

lisab0105 said:


> I won't speak for single malt, but when I first posted in this thread, I read the OP's post and hit reply. I certainly didn't read through the pages and pages of replies because I figured it was TAMer's responding directly to his questions. I posted a smart @ss video of what reconciliation meant to me. When I went back, I realized that the topic has actually veered away from the OPer's questions, and into a thread about TAMer's journey in reconciliation. I wasn't being antagonistic. I was answering a question, which is exactly what SM was doing as well. As for members wanting to get bent out of shape because of what he posted, I think that is just silly. No offense, but I could clearly see what SM's intentions were.


Last I'll speak on the subject. I find it worthwhile to always look at a Poster's posts to get an idea of where they are. Go...look at his posts and threads that he started. Can you clearly see what his intentions were? I can. It was antagonistic. Reminds me of another antagonizer who used to post in here til he was permabanned.

Then again, maybe I'm overly sensitive as this thread has done so much good for so many people. Especially, people who aren't even members that we'll never know.

I'll not speak of that poster any more.


----------



## B1

I feel I need to edit the first post and place one of those big bright yellow signs that says:

Beware 
Of
Reconcilers!​


----------



## SomedayDig

LMAO... That's awesome B1!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

HahHA. Too funny and Calvin got triggered by a Robin...ya all are crackin me up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Great,I missed what salt n pepper or what ever his name was post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Lmfao!!!!


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> HahHA. Too funny and Calvin got triggered by a Robin...ya all are crackin me up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Triggers are weird. I got triggered by buses for a long while...


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Everyone will heal,it may be with your spouse,it may not but people do recover and heal from infidelity.
> The main thing I have learned that to truely heal,it comes down to the WS,at least for me it does.
> If they can recognize what they did and do everything in their power to fix it,then a successful R is very possible.
> A WS cannot fix it,its how hard they try to repair it that makes a difference for me.
> Trying to make amends and being true about it means the world of difference to me.
> CSS really does understand the pain a BS has to go through,that made a huge impression on me.
> I hope you all are in a decent place today.
> God bless and good luck.
> I think I heard a Robin.....trigger time.  its all good!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awesome post calvin. Sums it up perfectly.


----------



## B1

bfree said:


> Awesome post calvin. Sums it up perfectly.


:iagree:


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Look whose sense of humor with a touch of sarcasm is coming back......


Yeah,couple real close people have told me I'm getting more upbeat and talking sh!t a little more.
Feels good,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

:yay: Great to hear, Calvin!

Some good news about my situation, too. WS felt bad about a difficult talk we had last night. I didn't sleep well because of it and let him know that I didn't. He apologized for hurting me and causing this turmoil, said he needs to make it more "safe" for me to talk, AND said he should start initiating the talks. Which he did for the first time tonight. 

We had a brief talk (I was too tired for a long one), but he rubbed my feet the whole time, which soothed me a lot! Things were calm, I got some things discussed that I had been holding back for some time, and it felt good to get it out. It went well.


----------



## soulpotato

Hopefulgirl, that's terrific! It sounds like he's starting to get it, starting to open up to you emotionally and empathize. I hope this will be a major turning point!!


----------



## B1

One thing that haunts a BS, or at least this BS are memories, but not my memories. I thought that EI's memories of the A were good ones. I thought that because it was good then that the memory of it today would be good too, and that really hurt. 

For EI that's not the case, and I feel it's probably not the case in many WS's minds. Those memories are bad ones, they are negative and bring only pain. EI has said over and over and been very consistent that she doesn't think about IT, but of course when we talk she has to and it's awful for her to think about. To know this helps me and should help other BS's.

When EI goes back there it's unpleasant and not good. The xOM is a BAD memory, a BAD thing she wished never happened. Part of what killed me in the past was thinking EI could recall these memories at will and relive the excitement. She used an analogy to help explain it better:

She said B1, when you were young you did some really stupid things, like drive fast, raced on the streets etc.. Then, yes, it was exciting and fun, now looking back you can't believe you were so stupid, you can't believe you didn't kill someone or yourself. You really can't believe you did that. And she's right, I was stupid, trust me I was. I had a black, 1977 Trans AM (Smokey and the Bandit) at 16. I'm not sure how fast I was going on dozens of occasions because the speedo was pegged. I landed in more yards sliding sideways than I can count, missing people sometimes by just a few feet. Once, I even landed on someones front porch. I was truly wreckless and stupid. 

EI's thinking is very much like that about her A. To her, among other things, it was a horrible choice, and she can't believe she did something so wreckless and stupid, she truly regrets it.

So now when I think about EI having her A, I can at least rest assured that EI's memories of IT are not good ones and that brings me comfort. I don't want this to sound mean to her, but at least I know she's not pulling these memories up and reliving fun and excitement. They bring her only pain and disgust.

Not sure this will help anyone, or hurt. It may be obvious to you, but it took me a little while to get it. Now, I got this a while back, I just had not shared it and thought I would now in the hope that it might help someone else.

Hope everyone has a great Wed.


----------



## Acabado

B1 said:


> One thing that haunts a BS, or at least this BS are memories, but not my memories. I thought that EI's memories of the A were good ones. I thought that because it was good then that the memory of it today would be good too, and that really hurt.
> 
> For EI That's not the case, and I feel it's probably not the case in many WS's minds. Those memories are bad ones, they are negative and bring only pain. EI has said over and over and been very consistent that she doesn't think about IT, but of course when we talk she has to and it's awful for her to think about. To know this helps me and should help other BS's.
> 
> When EI goes back there it's unpleasant and not good. The xom is a BAD memory a BAD thing she wished never happened. Part of what killed me in the past was thinking EI could recall these memories at will and relive the excitement. She used a analogy to help explain it better:
> 
> She said B1 When you were young you did some really stupid things, like drive fast, raced on the streets etc.. Then, yes, it was exciting and fun, now looking back you can't believe you were so stupid, you can't believe you didn't kill someone or yourself. You really can't believe you did that. And she's right, I was stupid, trust me I was. I had a transam at 16, I am not sure how fast I was going on dozens of occasions because the speedo was pegged. I landed in more yards sliding sideways than I can count, missing people sometimes by just a few feet. Once, I even landed on someones front porch. I was truly wreckless and stupid.
> 
> EI's thinking is very much like that about her A. To her, among other things, It was a horrible choice, and she can't believe she did something so wreckless and stupid, she truly regrets it.
> 
> So now when I think about EI having her A, I can at least rest assured that EI's memories of IT are not good ones and that brings me comfort. I don't want this to sound mean to her, but at least I know she's not pulling these memories up and reliving fun and excitement. They bring her only pain and disgust.
> 
> Not sure this will help anyone, or hurt. It may be obvious to you but it took me a little while to get it. Now, I got this a while back, I just had not shared it and thought I would now in hopes it would help someone.
> 
> Hope everyone has a great Wed.


"like" is not enough. I completely agree with you. 100 %.
My wife has no fond memories from her betrayal. Zero. She still struggles when she triggers and she does more than I.
I can't also look back at my behavior, the way I was, early on my marriage without shame and disgust. I understand her.


----------



## SomedayDig

Agreed, I can see where it pains Regret whenever I've asked questions about the affair. No fond memories. Just shame.


----------



## Almostrecovered

to this day my wife still has shame
in the card she gave me on our 15th anniversary last week, she wrote, "I can't believe that I almost lost you and I don't ever want to see that happen again and will always work hard to make sure that it won't"


----------



## bfree

And this is why I love this thread. Where else could you find this kind of insight.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of B1
> So now when I think about EI having her A, I can at least rest assured that EI's memories of IT are not good ones and that brings me comfort. I don't want this to sound mean to her, but at least I know she's not pulling these memories up and reliving fun and excitement. They bring her only pain and disgust.
> 
> Not sure this will help anyone, or hurt. It may be obvious to you, but it took me a little while to get it. Now, I got this a while back, I just had not shared it and thought I would now in the hope that it might help someone else.


*Great post B1!!*

I am so glad that EI feels that way about the A. 
In addition, I think that EI’s communication skills and analogy about being young and doing stupid things iare outstanding.

Viewing the A with pain and disgust shows a normal person with a good view on sin. 

*However, the WS feeling this way and then allowing that feeling to evolve into years and years of self deprecating and low self esteem is not healthy*. At some point I would hope that the WS would realize that they do not have to self deprecate for the rest of their lives. For some that maybe hard to do but that is why I post scriptures for those that value scriptures. *For us a higher authority can help us to realize that we can be free and not condemned for life.*

John 8
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, *Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.*


----------



## B1

Mr Blunt said:


> *Great post B1!!*
> 
> I am so glad that EI feels that way about the A.
> In addition, I think that EI’s communication skills and analogy about being young and doing stupid things iare outstanding.
> 
> Viewing the A with pain and disgust shows a normal person with a good view on sin.
> 
> *However, the WS feeling this way and then allowing that feeling to evolve into years and years of self deprecating and low self esteem is not healthy*. At some point I would hope that the WS would realize that they do not have to self deprecate for the rest of their lives. For some that maybe hard to do but that is why I post scriptures for those that value scriptures. *For us a higher authority can help us to realize that we can be free and not condemned for life.*
> 
> John 8
> 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
> 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, *Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.*


Thank you for pointing that out Mr B.
That is SO true. 

I didn't really want to bring this up but felt strongly it could help someone out there. Someone who is stuck thinking that their fws is romanticizing their past. A while back I was certainly stuck there and it just wasn't necessary.


----------



## russell28

B1 said:


> Thank you for pointing that out Mr B.
> That is SO true.
> 
> I didn't really want to bring this up but felt strongly it could help someone out there. Someone who is stuck thinking that their fws is romanticizing their past. A while back I was certainly stuck there and it just wasn't necessary.


You can't even believe how much stuff like this helps.. both sides have helped me, by both sides I mean the D and R camps.


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> One thing that haunts a BS, or at least this BS are memories, but not my memories. I thought that EI's memories of the A were good ones. I thought that because it was good then that the memory of it today would be good too, and that really hurt.
> 
> For EI that's not the case, and I feel it's probably not the case in many WS's minds. Those memories are bad ones, they are negative and bring only pain. EI has said over and over and been very consistent that she doesn't think about IT, but of course when we talk she has to and it's awful for her to think about. To know this helps me and should help other BS's.
> 
> When EI goes back there it's unpleasant and not good. The xOM is a BAD memory, a BAD thing she wished never happened. Part of what killed me in the past was thinking EI could recall these memories at will and relive the excitement. She used an analogy to help explain it better:
> 
> She said B1, when you were young you did some really stupid things, like drive fast, raced on the streets etc.. Then, yes, it was exciting and fun, now looking back you can't believe you were so stupid, you can't believe you didn't kill someone or yourself. You really can't believe you did that. And she's right, I was stupid, trust me I was. I had a black, 1977 Trans AM (Smokey and the Bandit) at 16. I'm not sure how fast I was going on dozens of occasions because the speedo was pegged. I landed in more yards sliding sideways than I can count, missing people sometimes by just a few feet. Once, I even landed on someones front porch. I was truly wreckless and stupid.
> 
> EI's thinking is very much like that about her A. To her, among other things, it was a horrible choice, and she can't believe she did something so wreckless and stupid, she truly regrets it.
> 
> So now when I think about EI having her A, I can at least rest assured that EI's memories of IT are not good ones and that brings me comfort. I don't want this to sound mean to her, but at least I know she's not pulling these memories up and reliving fun and excitement. They bring her only pain and disgust.
> 
> Not sure this will help anyone, or hurt. It may be obvious to you, but it took me a little while to get it. Now, I got this a while back, I just had not shared it and thought I would now in the hope that it might help someone else.
> 
> Hope everyone has a great Wed.


Good stuff B1,CSS is disgusted by her memories of talking to the scumbag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

russell28 said:


> You can't even believe how much stuff like this helps.. both sides have helped me, by both sides I mean the D and R camps.


I'm glad you found your way to this thread Russell. I know it is huge and all...but if you ever have a couple hours to kill, this thread is THE one to read, IMO. It runs the gammut. You will literally see people going through reconciliation in real time. Heck...back on Page 51 you can read in almost real time when I almost walked out.

This thread is the best one on TAM. B1 had no idea what he started, but he may as well have said, "Let there be light".

And it was good.


----------



## russell28

SomedayDig said:


> I'm glad you found your way to this thread Russell. I know it is huge and all...but if you ever have a couple hours to kill, this thread is THE one to read, IMO. It runs the gammut. You will literally see people going through reconciliation in real time. Heck...back on Page 51 you can read in almost real time when I almost walked out.
> 
> This thread is the best one on TAM. B1 had no idea what he started, but he may as well have said, "Let there be light".
> 
> And it was good.


I'm on page 7.. up to the place where you admit to being gassy. It's getting good.. like Game of Thrones with no incest or dragons.


----------



## BK23

russell28 said:


> I'm on page 7.. up to the place where you admit to being gassy. It's getting good.. like Game of Thrones with no incest or dragons.


Just wait...


----------



## russell28

BK23 said:


> Just wait...


Oh good, so there will be dragons... no more spoilers please.


----------



## EI

russell28 said:


> Oh good, so there will be dragons... no more spoilers please.


russell, you better put on a pot of coffee! This "$#!+'$" about to get real! Did you say, page 7? 

BTW..... Welcome to the "R" thread. Familiar with the song "Hotel California?........... just the last line.........  LOL


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> russell, you better put on a pot of coffee! This "$#!+'$" about to get real! Did you say, page 7?
> 
> BTW..... Welcome to the "R" thread. Familiar with the song "Hotel California?........... just the last line.........  LOL


There is no way out of here when you come in you're in for good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## StarGazer101

B1 said:


> One thing that haunts a BS, or at least this BS are memories, but not my memories. I thought that EI's memories of the A were good ones. I thought that because it was good then that the memory of it today would be good too, and that really hurt.
> 
> For EI that's not the case, and I feel it's probably not the case in many WS's minds. Those memories are bad ones, they are negative and bring only pain. EI has said over and over and been very consistent that she doesn't think about IT, but of course when we talk she has to and it's awful for her to think about. To know this helps me and should help other BS's.
> 
> When EI goes back there it's unpleasant and not good. The xOM is a BAD memory, a BAD thing she wished never happened. Part of what killed me in the past was thinking EI could recall these memories at will and relive the excitement. She used an analogy to help explain it better:
> 
> She said B1, when you were young you did some really stupid things, like drive fast, raced on the streets etc.. Then, yes, it was exciting and fun, now looking back you can't believe you were so stupid, you can't believe you didn't kill someone or yourself. You really can't believe you did that. And she's right, I was stupid, trust me I was. I had a black, 1977 Trans AM (Smokey and the Bandit) at 16. I'm not sure how fast I was going on dozens of occasions because the speedo was pegged. I landed in more yards sliding sideways than I can count, missing people sometimes by just a few feet. Once, I even landed on someones front porch. I was truly wreckless and stupid.
> 
> EI's thinking is very much like that about her A. To her, among other things, it was a horrible choice, and she can't believe she did something so wreckless and stupid, she truly regrets it.
> 
> So now when I think about EI having her A, I can at least rest assured that EI's memories of IT are not good ones and that brings me comfort. I don't want this to sound mean to her, but at least I know she's not pulling these memories up and reliving fun and excitement. They bring her only pain and disgust.
> 
> Not sure this will help anyone, or hurt. It may be obvious to you, but it took me a little while to get it. Now, I got this a while back, I just had not shared it and thought I would now in the hope that it might help someone else.
> 
> Hope everyone has a great Wed.


Thank you for sharing this B1 - this very issue is something that has tortured me. Your post gave us an opportunity to talk about it - it helped.


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## calvin

StarGazer101 said:


> Thank you for sharing this B1 - this very issue is something that has tortured me. Your post gave us an opportunity to talk about it - it helped.


It was something I didn't think about actually but its comforting to know the memories were not good for CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

B1 said:


> I didn't really want to bring this up but felt strongly it could help someone out there. Someone who is stuck thinking that their fws is romanticizing their past. A while back I was certainly stuck there and it just wasn't necessary.


B1, thank you so much for sharing that. It's a great thing to discuss. I'll certainly bring it up with GF at the earliest opportunity. I would be horrified if she thought I treasured memories of betraying her or felt anything but disgust and revulsion towards the OWs or myself for having EAs with them.


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## jupiter13

:smthumbup:It still amazes me that on the days I am having trouble with this or that the very subject will come up on here that can address the problem heads on. Thank you B1 for putting it out there. I keep so many of these thoughts to myself. Letting the chatter start in my head. You just saved WH from my attitude once again.


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> B1, thank you so much for sharing that. It's a great thing to discuss. I'll certainly bring it up with GF at the earliest opportunity. I would be horrified if she thought I treasured memories of betraying her or felt anything but disgust and revulsion towards the OWs or myself for having EAs with them.


Weird,something I never really thought about. 
At first she kept telling me he never lied and that he must have been a nice guy.
I did have to dig up proof,his record,all the people who were getting a peice of his paycheck.....
Why did I have to convince her?
Nevermind
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

calvin said:


> Weird,something I never really thought about.
> At first she kept telling me he never lied and that he must have been a nice guy.
> I did have to dig up proof,his record,all the people who were getting a peice of his paycheck.....
> Why did I have to convince her?
> Nevermind
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Fog?


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## bfree

calvin said:


> Weird,something I never really thought about.
> At first she kept telling me he never lied and that he must have been a nice guy.
> I did have to dig up proof,his record,all the people who were getting a peice of his paycheck.....
> Why did I have to convince her?
> Nevermind
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You like the program "The Walking Dead" right? In that show Andrew Lincoln plays officer Rick Grimes. Is Andrew Lincoln really a police officer? No. Is he really from Georgia? No. In fact, Andrew Lincoln is not even Andrew Lincoln. His real name is Andrew Clutterbuck and he was born in London. So he's not even an American. But when you watch the show you aren't thinking of any of that are you? You are only thinking about the character and the show. You belief is temporarily suspended. Yeah, its like that.


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## CantSitStill

Oh I cannot stand one thought about the ex OM akkk...seriously. I don't want to remember any of it and I don't give him any thought and when it is brought up it makes me sick. I hate to think I had any interest in him at all. Even typing this bugs me because I wish I never talked to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

I lie awake at night wondering why on earth I screwed things up so badly, how I got from a relatively good place with GF to total clusterf!ck. I can't help but dwell on everything I've done wrong, and I hate myself even more for involving her in my self-destruction. I go over all the bad choices I made or the bad choices I allowed others to make for me over and over again. Sometimes I just can't stop.

When I start thinking about everything I've put her through, I really cannot fathom how she can still love me or why. But I am beyond grateful for her and all the gifts she has given me over the years - for the gifts she continues to give me. I don't deserve her, but I'll do my best for her and keep struggling to raise that bar, no matter how hard it gets. No more safety, no more backup plans, no more hiding or running away. She is my only "plan", now and in the future.


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## daisygirl 41

Thank you B1 for your post. It is hard to understand when our exWSs tell us they loathe the OM/OW esp for those who said they LOVED their AP at the time. I have struggled with this notion A LOT. Just wondering if he's just saying that to appease me. He says when he sees her now he feels NOTHING but shame and guilt for the pain he caused me and he knows he NEVER loved her, she just made him feel good about himself and now she makes him HATE himself. It's good to read that this is common among the exWSs. If they are ALL saying it then I suppose it MUST be true!

2 years post Dday 1 for me tomorrow. Far too many similarities to the evening to ignore it. Can you believe we are doing the EXACT same thing tomorrow as we did on Dday? It's prom night for my middle son (was prom night for my eldest on Dday) and then dropping my daughter off to Girl Guide camp for the weekend (same as Dday). I feel like a scared child waiting for something terrible to happen. That night was the worst. I got the ilybnilwy speech and I thought my world had ended. I feel it like it was yesterday. I hate the fact that i have become needy and clingy it makes me feel weak and pathetic. I hate feeling so vulnerable!

I'm taking the day off work tomorrow. Staying home where I feel safe. I usually sleep in work tonight but ill be home where I need to be. Hubby and I had a chat this morning. He understands its a difficult time. We'll get through it I'm sure. He suggested we go out for food after we have dropped all the kids off tomorrow. 

I need to feel special to him again. I want him to love me the way he used to. He says he does. I hope he does. Only time will tell.

Take care all and welcome to the newbies on the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Take care, daisygirl. I hope it goes far better than you imagine. I'm only having month D-Day anniversaries at this point, but since healing is happening (though slowly) I think it helps to notice how far you've come.


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## B1

DG,
"I need to feel special to him again. I want him to love me the way he used to. He says he does. I hope he does. Only time will tell."

I am hoping you can feel his love DG...I am assuming you do but you just don't know if it will last or it's real, correct?

Wow two years from dday #1, my 2 year from dday #1 was last month, it does seem that a lot of Dday anniversaries are on or around April-May.


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## Lister

Just wanted to chip in my thanks to B1 for raising this issue. Me and Stargazer had a quick chat about it last night but i wanted to say more. My memories of the A and the AP make me feel almost physically sick now. I understand that this must be hard for any BS to believe which it is why it is so good to hear it from other WSs too. 

I have no fond memories at all of the times spent with the AP and I look back on them now with horror and bewilderment. The almost physical repulsion of these memories is one of the reasons why it is difficult to talk about the A and what we did. I thank SG that she doesn't probe at all into details of the A.


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## daisygirl 41

B1 said:


> DG,
> "I need to feel special to him again. I want him to love me the way he used to. He says he does. I hope he does. Only time will tell."
> 
> I am hoping you can feel his love DG...I am assuming you do but you just don't know if it will last or it's real, correct?
> 
> Wow two years from dday #1, my 2 year from dday #1 was last month, it does seem that a lot of Dday anniversaries are on or around April-May.


Yes B1 you are correct. It's almost as if my security blanket has been taken from me. I never ever doubted Hs love for me before, now I question it everyday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Yes B1 you are correct. It's almost as if my security blanket has been taken from me. I never ever doubted Hs love for me before, now I question it everyday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That sucks dg,I know the feeling.
Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

SomedayDig said:


> I'm glad you found your way to this thread Russell. I know it is huge and all...but if you ever have a couple hours to kill, this thread is THE one to read, IMO. It runs the gammut. You will literally see people going through reconciliation in real time. Heck...back on Page 51 you can read in almost real time when I almost walked out.
> 
> This thread is the best one on TAM. B1 had no idea what he started, but he may as well have said, "Let there be light".
> 
> And it was good.


That was a good section, I was on the edge of my seat.. "will he hurt himself? will he take her back? will he be perma-banned?" I liked the part about the guy who beat the snot out of the person, that made me think I'm right about letting go of the revenge stuff.. not letting the FW (fvcwad) have too much of my brain time.. tipping off his GF will have to be enough. Okay.. back to reading, I have like 480 more pages...

My new trigger is whenever I read the word "trigger"...


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## CantSitStill

Today has been bad, yes we were doing better. Calvin's triggers were not as often and didn't last long but today WHAMM! It is like he just got slapped in the face with the bad memories of d-day. I was not nice. I was horrible and it haunts me also when I think back. Calvin can't get rid of this trigger. He woke up with it and is still triggering really bad. I hate that I hurt the one person that I love and loves me. I wish I could go back in time. Anyway, please pray for us, this is a bad bad day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

He feels we don't belong together and we are not right for eachother. I understand he is very hurt. My fault, I own all of it. Just pray please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

He deserves better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Today has been from the get go,I don't know why.
Felt like everything happend last week.
I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Just a bad day Calvin, hang in there tomorrow will be better.
Nothing has changed, no new news etc. you know this and you got this.


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## calvin

Just got home,12 hours was enough for today,I should have stayed later but just not a good day.
I don't dream about her A often but it does happen once in awhile.
Its the same dream everytime,I hate it.
Tomorrow will be better I hope,I'm stretch in every direction,at least it seems that way.
I'm trying really hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Played golf in my golf league today. On the way to the first tee, I suddenly had a flashback to last summer when I saw the xOM at my course and almost killed him with my 8 iron.

My golf game was for sh-t today. But at least I didn't lose a ball.


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## Mr Blunt

> BY Daisy
> Thank you B1 for your post. It is hard to understand when our exWSs tell us they loathe the OM/OW esp for those who said they LOVED their AP at the time. I have struggled with this notion A LOT. Just wondering if he's just saying that to appease me.


Your wondering is so normal. I just read a post that said “I miss that I no longer have no doubt about his faithfulness” You know how that will get better? *It will get better every year that his actions back up his words.* IOW, every year that you see that he does not show any sign that he misses that other woman or the affair, you will become moré secure and wonder less. It can even get to the point that the D-Days mean almost nothing. Most of my observations about other Rs tell me that it takes at least 5 years to get to where the D-days mean very little. Frankly I think that applies to the real fast successful Rs. My guess would be that it would take longer than 5 years for the average R. Wish there was a way to make it shorter but I have not found one yet.



> By Daisy
> He says when he sees her now he feels NOTHING but shame and guilt for the pain he caused me and he knows he NEVER loved her, she just made him feel good about himself and now she makes him HATE himself. It's good to read that this is common among the exWSs



EI gave a good example of how she felt about her situation. She used the excitement of driving fast when you are young and how that could have got her killed. She said that it was stupid and she regretted it. EI can really get her thoughts across can’t she?


I will give you another metaphor. For such a very short time it was excitement. It is like getting excited when you are ordering your favorite dish (Steak---Lobster—etc). You are excited for a very short time as you eat it then you get food poising-gut-rot and you puke so hard you think your anus is going to come out!

You then realize that you lowered your respect for yourself and your integrity and let down those that you admire and respect the most. It is a hard pill to swallow!


*Thank God we can heal!*


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## daisygirl 41

Mr Blunt said:


> Your wondering is so normal. I just read a post that said “I miss that I no longer have no doubt about his faithfulness” You know how that will get better? *It will get better every year that his actions back up his words.* IOW, every year that you see that he does not show any sign that he misses that other woman or the affair, you will become moré secure and wonder less. It can even get to the point that the D-Days mean almost nothing. Most of my observations about other Rs tell me that it takes at least 5 years to get to where the D-days mean very little. Frankly I think that applies to the real fast successful Rs. My guess would be that it would take longer than 5 years for the average R. Wish there was a way to make it shorter but I have not found one yet.
> 
> Thank you Mr B. I really needed this today.
> Thanks to all of you. Your continued support will help me to get through a very difficult day.
> H and I 'had it out' last night. We are good today. I told him I don't feel special to him anymore that I feel like he doesn't need to make the effort and that I will put up with anything. He got defensive (as usual) then he backed down and apologised. Said he was so sorry he made me feel that way.
> 
> It's my sons prom, his last day of school (16 in the UK). I'm going to focus on that and make sure he has a fab day.
> 
> 
> EI gave a good example of how she felt about her situation. She used the excitement of driving fast when you are young and how that could have got her killed. She said that it was stupid and she regretted it. EI can really get her thoughts across can’t she?
> 
> 
> I will give you another metaphor. For such a very short time it was excitement. It is like getting excited when you are ordering your favorite dish (Steak---Lobster—etc). You are excited for a very short time as you eat it then you get food poising-gut-rot and you puke so hard you think your anus is going to come out!
> 
> You then realize that you lowered your respect for yourself and your integrity and let down those that you admire and respect the most. It is a hard pill to swallow!
> 
> 
> *Thank God we can heal!*


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

calvin said:


> Just got home,12 hours was enough for today,I should have stayed later but just not a good day.
> I don't dream about her A often but it does happen once in awhile.
> Its the same dream everytime,I hate it.
> Tomorrow will be better I hope,I'm stretch in every direction,at least it seems that way.
> I'm trying really hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin I think we have a lot in common, I too have a lot of ups and downs on this horrible roller coaster. I find it difficult to express my thoughts though, I sometimes read your posts and think I wish I could just get it out there like you do because once it's out there it wouldn't be swirling around in my head driving me crazy.

I still have nightmares as well, although they are becoming less frequent.

I just wanted to say I can see you making progress and I know you'll keep trying and I know you'll get there .....as will I.

I hope today is a good one.


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## calvin

StarGazer101 said:


> Calvin I think we have a lot in common, I too have a lot of ups and downs on this horrible roller coaster. I find it difficult to express my thoughts though, I sometimes read your posts and think I wish I could just get it out there like you do because once it's out there it wouldn't be swirling around in my head driving me crazy.
> 
> I still have nightmares as well, although they are becoming less frequent.
> 
> I just wanted to say I can see you making progress and I know you'll keep trying and I know you'll get there .....as will I.
> 
> I hope today is a good one.


Thanks SG,I bet everyone here thinks I'm half crazy and I probably am.
I won't give up,I know CSS loves me and wishes she could take it all back.
Hang in there SG,we all will get better,all of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

calvin said:


> Thanks SG,I bet everyone here thinks I'm half crazy and I probably am.
> I won't give up,I know CSS loves me and wishes she could take it all back.
> Hang in there SG,we all will get better,all of us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are all half crazy Calvin!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StarGazer101

daisygirl 41 said:


> We are all half crazy Calvin!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Wiser words were never said!

DG I hope you are enjoying the arrangements for _this_ year's prom and it's a good day for you too. I read your post above and sighed ..... I'd said something similar to Lister only a short time before. We all have our different stories but they all seem to have the same elements. We all just have to keep on, keeping on.


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## cpacan

Since I read a lot of "should've, could've, supposed to..." on the thread lately: To all my fellow strugglers, positive affirmation and truth of the day.

Whether you're religous or not, you're not supposed to be anywhere else, in any situation other than this. It is exactly what it is, and it's supposed to be exactly like this. When you start to question this fact, you're arguing with the past and with reality, which you have no way to change. So you might as well keep focus on the good parts of this reality.

What you CAN influence is your future. If something doesn't feel right, what are you going to do about it? How do YOU plan to change YOUR future situation, what would you like the future to look like - just for you, not for anyone else. Examples from my visualizations: 

I want to lead a good example for my kids, I want to have a independent creative professional career, I want to surround myself with people with a high level of integrity, I want financial freedom to live my life not wondering whether I will get to have something to eat tomorrow, I want to show the people around me that I care and that I love them, I want to enjoy the "little" things around me, the trees, the sky, the lake, the water coming out of the water faucet, my kids laughing, my kids yelling at each other - you probably get the idea.

If you can visualize this to yourself, you may have a spouse who is eager to join you on the ride, or you may not. But you still get to enjoy those other things, right?

Never deposit your happiness with another human being. Enjoy it if you have a spouse who makes you happy, just don't depend upon it.


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## CantSitStill

I need to learn to not freak when he triggers but when it gets to talking divorce, I just freak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I need to learn to not freak when he triggers but when it gets to talking divorce, I just freak.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You were still trying to get me out of the house at our then last MC session so you could start dating him,it really messed with my head,I knew there was someone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Awesome, awesome post CPACAN! :smthumbup:

I think it is really important to understand what makes you happy, both in the longer term (i.e. big picture) and in the shorter term. I believe true "happiness" is achieved when we do a good job of clearly outlining the shorter and longer term items so we can then appreciate them in real time. 

I believe that some of my wife's depression was tied to her inability to do this well. She was always chasing this big pretend "happily ever after" notion. First she thought the perfect marriage might do it, then the perfect job, then the perfect house, then the perfect family. She kept waiting for happiness to be delivered TO her.

The only true and lasting happiness is that that comes from within us. And it comes from within us after we gain better perspective, set our priorities properly and then enjoy this life in the now and in the real world. 

Kids get sick, they fight with eachother, spouses can be crabby, work can be stressful and frustrating. It will never be perfect. But know these hardships are temporary, find strength in yourself and enjoy the things that DO make you happy. Don't get so hung up on the things that DON'T make you happy.

I think this is the key between big picture happiness and sadness. If we focus on what makes us happy while trying to let what makes us angry or sad slip away. Challenge yourself to identify what makes you happy and latch onto it. But then challenge yourself NOT to obsess or focus on the things that make you unhappy. Let it roll off your back like water off a duck! 

And no, I am not saying to avoid real issues or problems that need to be addressed (I.e. rug sweeping). But know the difference between those and irritations/frustrations that are just that.

One of the things I love about summer is a routine I started a couple of years ago. After I mow the yard, trim hedges, weed, water etc on the weekend; I set aside an extra hour at the end. I sit down on the patio, or lay down in the hammock - often with an adult beverage and/or a cigar. 

I sit in my beautiful backyard, and I think about all the things in my life that make me happy. My beautiful children. My loving wife. Our second chance at happiness. My satisfaction in knowing my strength, patience and grace anabled this second chance. I know I am being the man I want to be, the father my children need and the husband my wife wants. 

I push the pause button on my life and take stock.

I sit there, mulling over these things while the birds sing, the trees blow in the wind and sun shines down on me. For some reason, I always think about the oracle from The Matrix - "You'll feel right as rain.". A little weird, I know. But this really does help center me. 

So I challenge everyone out there to find your recurring moment of reflection. Build it into your routine so you can practice it at least twice a month. Soon, you too can start to feel right as rain . . . .


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## SomedayDig

Calvin.

What year was that MC session?


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## CantSitStill

I left that evening, it was d-day , the end of January in 2012
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

K let's go to a better topic
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Yes end of Jan '12.
I got her drunk and finally got the truth out,she refused to stop talking to him so I told her to leave.
The next day she said she still wanted to date him so I exposed on fb.
The scumbag would have messed her up bad,he's did a lot of damage to a couplr families and got off on it.
Sometimes it all seems like last week,sometimes like a million years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

No OT tonight,go home and have a nice evening,still have to get up at 4am though...ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> We are all half crazy Calvin!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> We are all half crazy Calvin!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I challenge anyone who suggests that I am anything less than 75% crazy, perhaps more!  Yes, I know I do have an unhealthy addiction to exclamation points at the end of sentences! Drives our engineer, son-in-law batty. It simply doesn't compute with him and he doesn't comprehend a dry, witty sense of humor, either. Not that I have one, or anything! 

DG, just to add to cpacan's amazing post, try to focus on what is good in your life, rather than dwell on what is less than pleasant. It is your son's prom (our youngest had his just a few weeks ago. ) And, the truth is, the less than pleasant memory, that is threatening your current happiness, is just that, it is a memory...... it's in the past. On this day, don't just focus on making your son's special day fab, focusing on having a fabulous day..... period! :smthumbup: It's your day, too. It's a special day for your son and that should (and can) be special for you. Choose to love this day!


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## EI

cpacan said:


> What you CAN influence is your future. *If something doesn't feel right, what are you going to do about it?* How do YOU plan to change YOUR future situation, what would you like the future to look like - just for you, not for anyone else. Examples from my visualizations:
> 
> *I want to lead a good example for my kids,* I want to have a independent creative professional career, I want to surround myself with people with a high level of integrity, I want financial freedom to live my life not wondering whether I will get to have something to eat tomorrow,* I want to show the people around me that I care and that I love them, I want to enjoy the "little" things around me, the trees, the sky, the lake, the water coming out of the water faucet, my kids laughing, my kids yelling at each other - you probably get the idea.*
> 
> If you can visualize this to yourself, you may have a spouse who is eager to join you on the ride, or you may not. But you still get to enjoy those other things, right?
> 
> Never deposit your happiness with another human being. Enjoy it if you have a spouse who makes you happy, just don't depend upon it.


I love this post, cpacan. Particularly, the parts I bolded. You don't post as often as some of the Reconcilers, but your posts are always worth the wait! 

You sound like you're in a good place! :smthumbup:


----------



## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> Yes end of Jan '12.
> 
> Sometimes it all seems like last week,sometimes like a million years ago.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh....I totally get that. Yesterday seems like eons ago and then 30 years ago feels like yesterday. Just happened to me this morning when talking about "staying for the kids".

Buddy, I just want you to know that it's okay to go there. We all go there.

I would just like for you to always remember that was January 2012 and not today, tomorrow or next year. I've struggled with Regret's affair. Hell...hers lasted 5 years and I stil trigger. 

The difference in me now, is when I trigger - I remember that Dday was March 2012 and right now is right now. The same two people, mind you, but we are vastly different today.

Feel it.

But heal it, bro.


----------



## EI

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> .......I believe true "happiness" is achieved when we do a good job of clearly outlining the shorter and longer term items so we can then appreciate them in real time.
> 
> *I believe that some of my wife's depression was tied to her inability to do this well. She was always chasing this big pretend "happily ever after" notion. First she thought the perfect marriage might do it, then the perfect job, then the perfect house, then the perfect family. She kept waiting for happiness to be delivered TO her.*
> 
> ..... The only true and lasting happiness is that that comes from within us. And it comes from within us after we gain better perspective, set our priorities properly and then enjoy this life in the now and in the real world.
> 
> Kids get sick, they fight with each other, spouses can be crabby, work can be stressful and frustrating. It will never be perfect. But know these hardships are temporary, find strength in yourself and enjoy the things that DO make you happy. Don't get so hung up on the things that DON'T make you happy.
> 
> ....... I think this is the key between big picture happiness and sadness. If we focus on what makes us happy while trying to let what makes us angry or sad slip away. Challenge yourself to identify what makes you happy and latch onto it. But then challenge yourself NOT to obsess or focus on the things that make you unhappy. Let it roll off your back like water off a duck!
> 
> 
> I push the pause button on my life and take stock.
> 
> I sit there, mulling over these things while the birds sing, the trees blow in the wind and sun shines down on me. For some reason, I always think about the oracle from The Matrix - "You'll feel right as rain.". A little weird, I know. But this really does help center me.
> 
> *So I challenge everyone out there to find your recurring moment of reflection. * Build it into your routine so you can practice it at least twice a month. Soon, you too can start to feel right as rain . . . .


Tremendous post, NH2MR?

I copied the parts that I truly related to, but the part in *BOLD*...... WOW! That could have been written for me! Oh, and I needed perfect kids..... 5 perfect kids who never made any mistakes, never got bad grades, never got into any trouble, always got along well with each other, never got sick, and would all graduate from an Ivy league college and become the head of a Fortune 500 company. I'm still waiting...............  waiting........ waiting......... waiting......... Annnnnd, they were never supposed to get mad at me, either, because I was the "perfect mom," of course! :rofl: 

BTW, I accept your challenge!


----------



## SomedayDig

The Matrix had a few good quotes. My personal recurring moment of reflection is:

"Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth... THERE IS NO SPOON. Then you will see that it not the spoon that bends, it is yourself."


----------



## Mr Blunt

> BY Daisy
> H and I 'had it out' last night. We are good today. I told him I don't feel special to him anymore that I feel like he doesn't need to make the effort and that I will put up with anything. He got defensive (as usual) then he backed down and apologised. Said he was so sorry he made me feel that way.


Your husband sounds like he just does not understand 100%. I say that because he first got defensive then apologized. If someone or you can time it right and tell him this. Tell him that you are extra sensitive and need him to go way beyond normal in showing you that you are special OFTEN. Some people may say that is not necessary but they probably have never been a BS and certainly not a BS that is in the first year or two of R.

I know it may seem overboard to him and to others but he does sound like a good man. That being the case then he will try harder to make you feel special. Tell him I am a man and that I know that it is NECESSARY! 

After 5 years he can cut it back from way beyond normal and overboard to buying you flowers and writing you love notes to just twice a week!


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## CantSitStill

I love writing Calvin love notes, but I don't do it everyday because I want to surprise him . He also writes me love notes and puts them in my purse. It brightens up my day when I find them. I put his in his lunch 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike11

*Re: IC in Reconciliation*

Questions to all the people in this thread 

Me and my wife are "reconciling"(I will post my story here but some members here know it already, long story short for now, due to some extreme circumstances my wife wanted to officially end the marriage, we were already emotionally separated and were very much room mates due to it),in a certain point when all this came to light My wife and I decided to try to reconcile, that was 3 years ago, and around that time I have started reading TAM

In any case she was very resistant to IC, thought that she does not need it and it cannot help her or us in any way, eventually she started seeing an IC that was a complete professional blunder, 

This Counselor had the nerve to urge her to get divorced without actually meeting me or hearing my side of the story, long story short my wife understood that she(The Counselor) was a complete waste of time and apparently had an agenda with Men in general  and she stopped the IC with her immediately
and lately started IC with another one which is apparently more equipped to deal with what we went trough.

The problem is that my wife is secretive, she does not tell me or willing to share any info of what is being discussed, I understand that this is a private session and she is entitled for her private counseling, but on the other hand, We have bad experience with IC and I am a bit worried here that this is another "expert" like the other one was.

I have not pressured my wife for information or for her to disclose any if the content of these IC sessions, but am I right to have these concerns with this ? :scratchhead:, it is normal for a spouse in counseling to keep it a secret ? what is your experience with it ?

Any insights are appreciated


----------



## TCSRedhead

*Re: IC in Reconciliation*



Mike11 said:


> Questions to all the people in this thread
> 
> Me and my wife are "reconciling"(I will post my story here but some members here know it already, long story short for now, due to some extreme circumstances my wife wanted to officially end the marriage, we were already emotionally separated and were very much room mates due to it),in a certain point when all this came to light My wife and I decided to try to reconcile, that was 3 years ago, and around that time I have started reading TAM
> 
> In any case she was very resistant to IC, thought that she does not need it and it cannot help her or us in any way, eventually she started seeing an IC that was a complete professional blunder,
> 
> This Counselor had the nerve to urge her to get divorced without actually meeting me or hearing my side of the story, long story short my wife understood that she(The Counselor) was a complete waste of time and apparently had an agenda with Men in general  and she stopped the IC with her immediately
> and lately started IC with another one which is apparently more equipped to deal with what we went trough.
> 
> The problem is that my wife is secretive, she does not tell me or willing to share any info of what is being discussed, I understand that this is a private session and she is entitled for her private counseling, but on the other hand, We have bad experience with IC and I am a bit worried here that this is another "expert" like the other one was.
> 
> I have not pressured my wife for information or for her to disclose any if the content of these IC sessions, but am I right to have these concerns with this ? :scratchhead:, it is normal for a spouse in counseling to keep it a secret ? what is your experience with it ?
> 
> Any insights are appreciated


That's concerning - she should want to talk about this with you so you can understand the efforts she's taking to fix the broken parts in her that led to her choices to cheat. 

Secrets and privacy have no place in a marriage.


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## soulpotato

I personally think it would be normal to share at least what the session was "about" (main subjects) and maybe some specifics from it, but that's just my opinion. I think it's probably different for everyone, but I share a lot of what I talk about in my sessions with GF, and she has shared a bit with me.


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## jupiter13

I wish I could be special again but I don't see how. It is like the magic was banned from the village, now we only deal with reality and cold hard facts. I also wonder if WH has fond memories even though he tells me he wishes they were dead. It's really hard to understand not having fond memories. This was WS choice where they wanted to be at BS expense. At least admit it was fun while it lasted or while you were in the fog. I don't get it, if you weren't having the time of your life you wouldn't have been there in the first place. I'm in a bad place again. Have a great day.


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## SomedayDig

I'm going on a date with Regret tonight, so I don't really have time for a longer post, Mike.

Here's the deal. And...well, it kinda sucks.

Your wife's IC is just that: an Individual Counselor. The counselor is there for one purpose and that is your WIFE. Whatever your needs are will never, ever be addressed there. 

Have you guys ever done MC? If not, I think that is vital for any couple going through reconciliation as it is for BOTH of you.

For you wife to not talk about her sessions, is a bit of a concern with me, too. My wife talks about every session each week. It's no big deal. It has to do with the marriage. Why wouldn't it be discussed?

I'm worried about what's really gone on the last 3 years...


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## CantSitStill

I have wished the exOM dead or back in prison or at least to live far far away because hubby runs into him also I used to be afraid he might stalk me, but luckily I never ran into him. If I ever do, he does not deserve to hear one word out of my mouth..altho my words would be ugly, I wouldn't even give him that because it would be inviting him to converse with me. No thank you...he makes me wanna puke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Oh as for counseling, our first counselor told us to not tell eachother anything about our sessions! He said it is all confidential. That was a load of crap! We did tell eachother and found that he was talking bad about each of us behind eachothers back!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

I think talking about the IC sessions is a helpful thing. The person who knows me better than ANYONE is C&B so talking things out with him just helps us both feel better in the end.


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## Mike11

*Re: IC in Reconciliation*



TCSRedhead said:


> That's concerning - she should want to talk about this with you so you can understand the efforts she's taking to fix the broken parts in her that led to her choices to cheat.
> 
> Secrets and privacy have no place in a marriage.


just to correct here our marriage breakdown was not due to infidelity of either me or my wife, although some behaviors suggests it after the whole thing came to play


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## calvin

Mike11 said:


> just to correct here our marriage breakdown was not due to infidelity of either me or my wife, although some behaviors suggests it after the whole thing came to play


Howdy Mike,that's good to know,infidelity takes a workable problem and turns it into
a monumental task.
I think everyone here wishes they would have worked harder on their marriage and spouses.
I know me and the wife do.
Pull up a chair Mike,lot of good people here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mike11

Hey Calvin, Thanks for the warm welcome, I am an avid reader of this thread, and indeed many good people here

:smthumbup:


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## calvin

If you're reading the whole thread from the begging you need lots of popcorn,beer and maybe a tissue or two.
You'll read some heartbreaking stuff but also witness some triumphs here.
Welcome to B1 and EI's thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Hey Mike, I am happy to hear that you are here because had a lot of us been here before the infidelity, we wouldn't be going through this hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> I love writing Calvin love notes, but I don't do it everyday because I want to surprise him . He also writes me love notes and puts them in my purse. It brightens up my day when I find them. I put his in his lunch
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I write the occasional poem to Mrs bfree. Nothing wrong with that at all.


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## bfree

*Re: IC in Reconciliation*



Mike11 said:


> Questions to all the people in this thread
> 
> Me and my wife are "reconciling"(I will post my story here but some members here know it already, long story short for now, due to some extreme circumstances my wife wanted to officially end the marriage, we were already emotionally separated and were very much room mates due to it),in a certain point when all this came to light My wife and I decided to try to reconcile, that was 3 years ago, and around that time I have started reading TAM
> 
> In any case she was very resistant to IC, thought that she does not need it and it cannot help her or us in any way, eventually she started seeing an IC that was a complete professional blunder,
> 
> This Counselor had the nerve to urge her to get divorced without actually meeting me or hearing my side of the story, long story short my wife understood that she(The Counselor) was a complete waste of time and apparently had an agenda with Men in general  and she stopped the IC with her immediately
> and lately started IC with another one which is apparently more equipped to deal with what we went trough.
> 
> The problem is that my wife is secretive, she does not tell me or willing to share any info of what is being discussed, I understand that this is a private session and she is entitled for her private counseling, but on the other hand, We have bad experience with IC and I am a bit worried here that this is another "expert" like the other one was.
> 
> I have not pressured my wife for information or for her to disclose any if the content of these IC sessions, but am I right to have these concerns with this ? :scratchhead:, it is normal for a spouse in counseling to keep it a secret ? what is your experience with it ?
> 
> Any insights are appreciated


A marriage joins two people. Every decision and action you take affects your wife and every decision and action she takes affects you. Given that, secrets can be and very often are damaging. I hide nothing from my wife and she hides nothing from me. We consider it to be a matter of mutual respect.


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## hopefulgirl

Mike, the IC is a sore subject for me. After all the secrets my WS kept, it feels like it's a situation that allows him a free pass to keep more secrets from me.

And he has a bad habit of forgetting to tell me about appointments and meetings - I read on Dr Harley's website that he recommends couples share their schedules every week, which seems like a good idea (I'm not a big fan of Harley in general because he talks about being "in love" in long term relationships, which I think is silly - but the sharing schedules idea is a good one).

I think my WS had an IC appointment after his workday yesterday. He can usually leave work a little early on counseling days, so he only comes home a little bit late. But he didn't bother to let me know what time he'd be home yesterday, and he came home a little late with no mention of why he was a little late. When he arrived he said he felt sick, and went to the bathroom - he had diarrhea. So, since he was ill I decided not to bring up my disappointment about his not letting me know why he was late. If he DID have counseling, I would like to have known.

We argued after his first therapy session since "confesssing" the affair to his counselor. I started a thread about it - I may have misconstrued what the counselor said, because the word "symptom" came up in reference to his affair, and I took it to mean the counselor thought the affair a symptom of problems in our marriage and if so I thought the counselor was off-base; some posters here said the counselor could have meant it was a symptom of the anxiety/panic issues he was already in counseling for.

Since then, he has clammed up about his sessions. To the point of not even telling me sometimes when he HAS a session. I REALLY feel the triggers then - being in the dark about where he is.

I was going to discuss it tonight, and then he said he had to leave for a hobby club meeting. Which he didn't tell me about. (This is a fairly new club that he joined, and I'd say this is only the 3rd monthly meeting he's attended so I wasn't aware it was tonight.)

Tonight I feel like I'm living with a roommate, not a spouse. And certainly not a spouse who should be working hard to earn back my trust.


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## calvin

Sorry to hear that hopeful,communication really is the key,CSS and I always know what eachother will be doing,if I have a meeting I let her know,I text her right before I leave work.
We have lived like roomates before,I hated it.I need the hugs,kisses and physical touch,I need to feel loved by her.
I hope things get better for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

jupiter13 said:


> I wish I could be special again but I don't see how. It is like the magic was banned from the village, now we only deal with reality and cold hard facts. I also wonder if WH has fond memories even though he tells me he wishes they were dead. It's really hard to understand not having fond memories. This was WS choice where they wanted to be at BS expense. At least admit it was fun while it lasted or while you were in the fog. I don't get it, if you weren't having the time of your life you wouldn't have been there in the first place. I'm in a bad place again. Have a great day.


The BIG question is this: How do they feel NOW,and what about the memories? Many WS's hate the memories, they hate what they did. The memories are not good ones and they feel awful about what they did and what they became. I bet your ws does too.

Hope your in a better place today.


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## soulpotato

Hopefulgirl, it's easy to see why you feel that way. I'm surprised that he isn't being a lot more communicative about where he is or what he's doing. That's very inconsiderate of him, and extremely unhelpful in R. Heck, even though GF and I live in different places now, I still give her a rundown on what my weekly schedule is like, what my weekend plans are (if we somehow don't have any plans to see each other). Did he know you wanted to talk before he went to his hobby club meeting? How much time do his other activities leave for you?


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## B1

HG,
Communications is KEY in R, or in marriage period. You should always know his schedule, especially now. He's not being very understanding of your needs right now. He has to see that open communications is critical to recovery and to a successful marriage.
To up and say, "oh by the way I have a meeting tonight?" that's not ok. He should understand that could be a trigger too.

Now on the IC, I didn't always discuss mine with EI. We would talk about it cover some basics but we didn't discuss everything, heck, I couldn't even remember everything. Also, I didn't really ask about her IC, maybe something like, how did it go, was it good etc. I figured IC is just that, IC and personal to a degree. Most times though, it would come out during our normal talks that we would have many times a day.

Sometimes we would cover it, others we wouldn't. I guess if during IC we touched on something that helped, made a difference, then I would be more likely to talk about it with EI. So many times my IC just wasn't that deep, not much to even share with EI.

Back, long ago when I was in counseling covering childhood issues I don't recall talking about my sessions at all with EI, they were painful, difficult so I think I was fairly closed up about my IC then. Talking about it for an hour was enough, I couldn't go into it again with EI. It was exhausting to me and I didn't want to talk about it more when home. 

Perhaps your hubby is covering far more than just the A and to him it's very personal and he doesn't have it in him to talk about it more with you, yet. This is just a thought, not that it's right or wrong, it may just be the way it is.

If everything else was going great I wouldn't worry to much about it. However, if there are small red flags or orange ones then it may bother me.

His schedule though, needs to be known by you, always!


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## CantSitStill

For me, talking about the childhood stuff with Calvin made us feel closer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Soulpotato, he didn't know that I wanted to talk before his club meeting; he came home from work feeling tired (not sick, like the night before last) and he took a nap - I didn't wake him for dinner, which I wasn't planning on cooking last night due to an extremely difficult day at work for me (carry out for sure). He woke up just in time to head out to his meeting (maybe he set an alarm; I don't know) - he didn't even have time for his dinner so he put it in the fridge.

Yes, B1, communication IS key and it's not something he's very good at. We tried a little this morning, but... he had ANOTHER club meeting to go to. This one he's belonged to a lot longer, so I wasn't taken by surprise. He did say he would be better about telling me his club and appointment schedule. 

I do appreciate your input on IC. I can see where one might be tired after an hour of talking, and they definitely deal with stuff OTHER than me and our relationship! That takes a little of the sting out of it. 

But I do trigger on the secrecy aspect of it. I'm sure it's partly because he sees a female therapist. I have no fear that he's flirting with her or anything, but he IS confiding in her, just like he did with the OW in the weeks before the PA started. It kills me to look at the cell phone records and I can pinpoint the exact day he texted the OW at midnight, on a business trip, after not helping her with her problem for several weeks (he'd been helping her with something, which is why I thought they were in frequent contact).

The whole next day they texted - during his workday - and he's never texted me that much during a workday, EVER. It didn't catch fire right away - days went by - but as it gained momentum, it got crazy. When they started the sexting, the numbers of texts per day got insane, and then the lying and the PA started.

All this is going through my head now, because of the of the secrecy and feeling left out. If he asked me what we talk about here, I'd tell him. Maybe I'd hold back some of it, but this is my "therapy" and I'd share most, heck, maybe all of it with HIM. I just think in marriage, you should be trying to have "windows" not "walls" like Shirley Glass says in Not Just Friends.


----------



## daisygirl 41

My sons prom went well. I felt very anxious but got through it fine. Son had a fab time.

The sun is shining and the weekend is going well.
My daughter is away for the weekend so it's given us a chance to focus on each other.
A good day at last.

Love to you all
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

I just wanted to share a "happy" something with our TAM friends. B1 and I are at the YUM Center watching our son-in-law graduate with a Bachelor of Science in Industrial Engineering from the University of Louisville's J.B. Speed School of Engineering. It's been ten years in the making, 9 of which B1 and I have had the privilege of knowing him. He has been our son-in-law for nearly 7 of those years. I could go on and on about how proud I am of him, our daughter and the excellent choices they have made in their lives........ In fact, later I will do just that! ;-) For now, back to watching him graduate! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

That is a great accomplishment EI.

Congratulations to him!


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## SomedayDig

Regret and I made friends with a couple back in February. The husband is a real cool dude - right up my alley since he's got a man cave that has a bar of bourbons from around the world!!! {{drool}}

Anyway, he's in the Guard and is an officer and has been slam busy since mid-Feb til last week. The wife texted Regret this week and asked if we would like to come to a social tonight. They invited our kids as they have kids and an Xbox and Wii.

We're anxious but excited about it. This is literally the first adult social we've been to (sans my Motorcycle Club stuff) since last year when all this sh-t went down.

We just spent $50 on meats, cheese, olives and crackers to make a nice platter.

A little less than 3 hours til we leave. We're both a little nervous and hopeful to enjoy adult company.


----------



## CantSitStill

I am loving all of these good updates . So nice and refreshing to hear good news.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

SomedayDig said:


> Regret and I made friends with a couple back in February. The husband is a real cool dude - right up my alley since he's got a man cave that has a bar of bourbons from around the world!!! {{drool}}
> 
> Anyway, he's in the Guard and is an officer and has been slam busy since mid-Feb til last week. The wife texted Regret this week and asked if we would like to come to a social tonight. They invited our kids as they have kids and an Xbox and Wii.
> 
> We're anxious but excited about it. This is literally the first adult social we've been to (sans my Motorcycle Club stuff) since last year when all this sh-t went down.
> 
> We just spent $50 on meats, cheese, olives and crackers to make a nice platter.
> 
> A little less than 3 hours til we leave. We're both a little nervous and hopeful to enjoy adult company.


Dig, I'm quite certain you have the confidence to pull it off. It'll be OK.


----------



## ChangingMe

Hello R'ers~

Just wanted to give a little check-in. This week has been much better than last week for DD and me, thankfully. He seems to be in a better place, and we have had some good, hard talks. Still not sure what the future holds, but I feel a little more optimistic than last week. Hopefully he does too. 

We leave at 7am tomorrow morning for a family vacation to Myrtle Beach. I had been really anxious about it last week, but now I am hoping it will be a really good time for all 4 of us, and that we can make lots of good new family memories. The kids are beyond excited -we are staying at a hotel with water slides, splash areas, and a lazy river, and it will be their first time at a real beach (meaning not Galveston, which is nasty), plus we have a lot of other fun things planned. 

We'll be there Sunday through Thursday, and I am going to stay off TAM while we're gone. I'm really going to try to unplug this trip and just enjoy the moments with my family. 

Oh, and DD's dad is getting a plane today. :smthumbup: It should be delivered in about an hour, so DD is going to meet up with his dad over at the airport to try it out. It just happens to be his dad's birthday today as well, so it should be a fun afternoon for the two of them. 

I hope you all have a good, peaceful week, and hopefully I will have a positive post to make on Thursday when we return. 

Take care, TAMers. Time to get back to packing . . .


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## SomedayDig

CM...I'm the easy going dude when it comes to meeting new people. I felt so good today when we were grocery shopping and Regret looked at me and said, "I'm going to need you to be by me tonight".

She's never expressed that kind of thing. It made me feel good to know she can rely on me like that.

As for DD and you - so good to hear. This reconciliation road, as has been said, isn't straight. Hell...it's the most curvy road ever imagined.

Stick with it and tell my boy to have a good time with his Dad on the new wings!


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## calvin

CM,you and DD are in our thoughts,we hope things continue to get better for you both.
Dig,I like cheese and crackers,bring em over,we can play our Wii or X-Box just keep the cheese coming.
I have to get started on about three gallons of spaghetti sauce soon for Mothers Day.
I make a damn good sauce too.
I should have about 25 people over tomorrow,there won't be a drop of sauce left,yes I'm that good.
I like to cook and I don't mind it.
I have tomatoes that my Mom canned last year,they make a big difference.
Hope everyone enjoys their weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Regret and I made friends with a couple back in February. The husband is a real cool dude - right up my alley since he's got a man cave that has a bar of bourbons from around the world!!! {{drool}}
> 
> Anyway, he's in the Guard and is an officer and has been slam busy since mid-Feb til last week. The wife texted Regret this week and asked if we would like to come to a social tonight. They invited our kids as they have kids and an Xbox and Wii.
> 
> We're anxious but excited about it. This is literally the first adult social we've been to (sans my Motorcycle Club stuff) since last year when all this sh-t went down.
> 
> We just spent $50 on meats, cheese, olives and crackers to make a nice platter.
> 
> A little less than 3 hours til we leave. We're both a little nervous and hopeful to enjoy adult company.


That sounds great, Dig! I envy that so much! I envy anything that bears some semblance to normalcy. It's been so long since B1 and I have had "friends," especially "couple friends." It's one of the challenges that families with special needs children face. You simply can't do many of the things that everyone else is doing, so you lose touch with old friends and don't have many opportunities to make new ones. Even simple things like going to church or to sports events, pretty much anything and everything, becomes so difficult that you just give up parts of your life and parts of yourself, one piece at a time. Wheelchairs and beaches don't go hand in hand, restrooms with changing tables don't accommodate changing the diapers of full grown men. It's difficult taking Jo-Jo to so many places and we would feel guilty leaving him behind. And, it isn't as if there is a line of people knocking on the front door offering to "babysit" even of we were willing to go some places without taking him. So, we don't go too many places. It used to be that the kids might hang out at home for a few hours every once in a while so we could go out for a while. But, now they're grown, 2 have moved out, 2 at home but with their work, school and social lives, we've lost even our occasional built in baby sitters.

He can be at home alone for a few hours. He has a special phone that's adapted for his capabilities, and he could get out of house using the ramp in the garage if there was an emergency. Still, I feel so guilty leaving him, at all. 

Going to our son-in-law's graduation today was nice, though. But, it's back to reality, now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

CM...enjoy the trip and do not even think about TAM. When we went for our weekend trip it was so nice to just be together and forget about everything at home for a bit %
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Still cooking......ugh.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> By EI
> I just wanted to share a "happy" something with our TAM friends. B1 and I are at the YUM Center watching our son-in-law graduate with a Bachelor of Science in Industrial Engineering from the University of Louisville's J.B. Speed School of Engineering. It's been ten years in the making, 9 of which B1 and I have had the privilege of knowing him. He has been our son-in-law for nearly 7 of those years. I could go on and on about how proud I am of him, our daughter and the excellent choices they have made in their lives........ In fact, later I will do just that! ;-) For now, back to watching him graduate!



Love it when we get some real positive events posted. Helps us to endure not so positive posts and then for us to try and present hope.

Your son-in-law is adding positives to his life, your daughter has some credit in helping him, you and B1 have some credit for your daughter making good choices and not thinking that she only deserves a loser! *Sticking with a goal for 10 years and then having a good woman and other famnily members by your side makes a positive differnce.*


Now is the time to sing and dance !


----------



## hopefulgirl

Maybe we aren't going to make it after all. And maybe I was right to be suspicious of his counselor. I wondered when she suggested that cheating could be a "symptom" what she meant by that - blaming me, maybe?

He was silent about their session the other day for a reason. She asked him why he stayed married to me if he's so "miserable!" They HAVE been talking a lot about me and about the marriage! 

We had a big fight tonight. When the money issue came up (which has been a difficult one for some time), he again threatened to change his account passwords (he has actually done it once, but then told me what they were). I said if you do that, we should just be roommates - we shouldn't be married. HE then brought up divorce. And things escalated from there. He brought up his counselor. He said "she was right - I've been enabling you to control me by not setting any personal boundaries."

I guess she doesn't believe in transparency.  (She's not married, by the way.) 

He spent a lot of money again on his hobbies last month, but since he earns way more than I do now he thinks that's OK (but I brought a largely paid for house and a lot of savings into the marriage - he had none - and a lot of that has been spent on his debts through the years though I've put a stop to that). I just don't feel OK with the level of debt he has on his credit cards, and he thinks it's OK to keep spending on his hobbies rather than pay off the cards. This makes me controlling.

The marital money has obviously been seen - by both of us - as yours and mine. We haven't really functioned very well as financial partners. This has been a sore spot, and I've told him for years we have to learn to do better at this, but we never do. He just kept spending and I just kept bailing him out. But his counselor, from what SHE hears, thinks HE'S been enabling ME. She's hearing only his complaints about being watched since he switched from paper bills to electronic bills the month he charged a hotel stay with the OW and I asked for the passwords to his credit card accounts.

I'm numb all over again - like on D-Day. He's gone to sleep on a cot in the basement. He talked about going to a lawyer. I can't believe he's so hung up on not wanting me to ask questions about his spending on his hobbies. And I feel betrayed by this counselor - I met with her for their first session (it was several weeks before he started the A - he had had a panic attack), and I thought she seemed nice. I don't think she knows about infidelity or marriage issues for that matter, and I think she may be just bad enough at her job that she's "enabling" the end of my marriage!


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## thatbpguy

hopefulgirl said:


> Maybe we aren't going to make it after all. And maybe I was right to be suspicious of his counselor. I wondered when she suggested that cheating could be a "symptom" what she meant by that - blaming me, maybe?
> 
> He was silent about their session the other day for a reason. She asked him why he stayed married to me if he's so "miserable!" They HAVE been talking a lot about me and about the marriage!
> 
> We had a big fight tonight. When the money issue came up (which has been a difficult one for some time), he again threatened to change his account passwords (he has actually done it once, but then told me what they were). I said if you do that, we should just be roommates - we shouldn't be married. HE then brought up divorce. And things escalated from there. He brought up his counselor. He said "she was right - I've been enabling you to control me by not setting any personal boundaries."
> 
> I guess she doesn't believe in transparency. (She's not married, by the way.)
> 
> He spent a lot of money again on his hobbies last month, but since he earns way more than I do now he thinks that's OK (but I brought a largely paid for house and a lot of savings into the marriage - he had none - and a lot of that has been spent on his debts through the years though I've put a stop to that). I just don't feel OK with the level of debt he has on his credit cards, and he thinks it's OK to keep spending on his hobbies rather than pay off the cards. This makes me controlling.
> 
> The marital money has obviously been seen - by both of us - as yours and mine. We haven't really functioned very well as financial partners. This has been a sore spot, and I've told him for years we have to learn to do better at this, but we never do. He just kept spending and I just kept bailing him out. But his counselor, from what SHE hears, thinks HE'S been enabling ME. She's hearing only his complaints about being watched since he switched from paper bills to electronic bills the month he charged a hotel stay with the OW and I asked for the passwords to his credit card accounts.
> 
> I'm numb all over again - like on D-Day. He's gone to sleep on a cot in the basement. He talked about going to a lawyer. I can't believe he's so hung up on not wanting me to ask questions about his spending on his hobbies. And I feel betrayed by this counselor - I met with her for their first session (it was several weeks before he started the A - he had had a panic attack), and I thought she seemed nice. I don't think she knows about infidelity or marriage issues for that matter, and I think she may be just bad enough at her job that she's "enabling" the end of my marriage!


Do you feel the counseling is helping or hurting?


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## hopefulgirl

He's in IC. We aren't in MC because I wasn't sure we were really ready yet - I was seeing "on and off" signs of remorse and willingness to answer my questions. He has shut down on some occasions when I asked questions. He's a little better when it comes to the mental health issues he started counseling for.


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## thatbpguy

hopefulgirl said:


> He's in IC. We aren't in MC because I wasn't sure we were really ready yet - I was seeing "on and off" signs of remorse and willingness to answer my questions. He has shut down on some occasions when I asked questions. He's a little better when it comes to the mental health issues he started counseling for.


Seems like a long and tedious path.


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## hopefulgirl

It's 3 and a half months since D-Day. Yes, I'm exhausted. 

He came upstairs a bit ago to tell me he was moving the cot up to the main floor because it was too dusty in the basement. Odd that he would feel the need to come all the way up to the third floor to announce that to me. Unless he wanted to check on my mood?? I wasn't crying or anything, just sitting here at the computer - I just said "OK."

Maybe he was hoping I'd invite him to sleep in our bed? We only have one bed in the house. Ha! I don't think so. If anything, I'm going 180 on him.

I hear him clearing his throat down there - all that basement dust still bothering him?

I'm still numb. Our marriage may end in divorce. I didn't want that outcome. But he can't handle it if I try to discuss basic issues like his spending habits, or ask him questions about lies he told me during the affair. So we are not in a good place.

I sensed this, and didn't want to even start a conversation about anything of substance tonight - HE started it. I wonder if after his session, he wanted to bring things to a head?


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## daisygirl 41

hopefulgirl said:


> It's 3 and a half months since D-Day. Yes, I'm exhausted.
> 
> He came upstairs a bit ago to tell me he was moving the cot up to the main floor because it was too dusty in the basement. Odd that he would feel the need to come all the way up to the third floor to announce that to me. Unless he wanted to check on my mood?? I wasn't crying or anything, just sitting here at the computer - I just said "OK."
> 
> Maybe he was hoping I'd invite him to sleep in our bed? We only have one bed in the house. Ha! I don't think so. If anything, I'm going 180 on him.
> 
> I hear him clearing his throat down there - all that basement dust still bothering him?
> 
> I'm still numb. Our marriage may end in divorce. I didn't want that outcome. But he can't handle it if I try to discuss basic issues like his spending habits, or ask him questions about lies he told me during the affair. So we are not in a good place.
> 
> I sensed this, and didn't want to even start a conversation about anything of substance tonight - HE started it. I wonder if after his session, he wanted to bring things to a head?


So sorry HG. 
I'm not really in the frame of mind to give you advice at the moment but just wanted you to know you are in my thoughts.
I know how difficult it is to try and get someone to communicate when they just don't want to or don't know how to.
Hang on in there honey
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

hopefulgirl said:


> Maybe we aren't going to make it after all. And maybe I was right to be suspicious of his counselor. I wondered when she suggested that cheating could be a "*symptom"* what she meant by that - blaming me, maybe?
> 
> He was silent about their session the other day for a reason. She asked him *why he stayed married to me if he's so "miserable*!" They HAVE been *talking a lot about me and about the marriage!*
> 
> We had a big fight tonight. When the money issue came up (which has been a difficult one for some time), he again threatened to change his account passwords (he has actually done it once, but then told me what they were). I said if you do that, we should just be roommates - we shouldn't be married. HE then brought up divorce. And things escalated from there. He brought up his counselor. He said "she was right - *I've been enabling you to control me by not setting any personal boundaries*."
> 
> I guess she doesn't believe in transparency. (She's not married, by the way.)
> 
> He spent a lot of money again on his hobbies last month, but since he earns way more than I do now he thinks that's OK (but I brought a largely paid for house and a lot of savings into the marriage - he had none - and a lot of that has been spent on his debts through the years though I've put a stop to that). I just don't feel OK with the level of debt he has on his credit cards, and he thinks it's OK to keep spending on his hobbies rather than pay off the cards. This makes me controlling.
> 
> The marital money has obviously been seen - by both of us - as yours and mine. We haven't really functioned very well as financial partners. This has been a sore spot, and I've told him for years we have to learn to do better at this, but we never do. He just kept spending and I just kept bailing him out. But his counselor, from what SHE hears, thinks HE'S been enabling ME. She's hearing only his complaints about being watched since he switched from paper bills to electronic bills the month he charged a hotel stay with the OW and I asked for the passwords to his credit card accounts.
> 
> I'm numb all over again - like on D-Day. He's gone to sleep on a cot in the basement. He talked about going to a lawyer. I can't believe he's so hung up on not wanting me to ask questions about his spending on his hobbies. And I feel betrayed by this counselor - I met with her for their first session (it was several weeks before he started the A - he had had a panic attack), and I thought she seemed nice. I don't think she knows about infidelity or marriage issues for that matter, and I think she may be just bad enough at her job that she's "enabling" the end of my marriage!


There are many counselors out there who seem to push the codependency angle way too much. Just from what you describe it sounds like this counselor may be one of them. In fact that last sentence I highlighted is textbook. They push books like Codependency No More on their clients and the sessions often turn into discussions about why the person isn't happy and who is to blame for that. In very many cases the client often detaches from their spouse and divorce is almost inevitable. I've personally seen it happen several times and in fact I had a counselor that tried that with me. Just for reference, the codependency angle started as therapy for addicts and spouses/family of addicts. It worked fairly well but then counselors started pushing that therapy on everyone and its having disastrous results. Dr. Harley actually writes about the codependency therapy and explains how it harms relationships. I would ask your husband if his counselor mentioned codependency and if so I would print out and have him read Dr. Harley's take on it. You might want to have him read about transparency in a relationship as well from Harley's book.


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## bfree

I pulled the article for you and will paste it below. Take a read and see if this might be what is going on in his therapy.

How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages

How the Co-dependency Movement
Is Ruining Marriages

by Willard F. Harley, Jr.



Those of us in the business of trying to save marriages struggle daily with cultural beliefs and practices that make our job difficult. The sudden surge of divorces in the 1970's, that has made America the country with the highest divorce rate, has a great deal to do with changes in our basic beliefs. More to the point, it has to do with a major shift toward self-centeredness. Beliefs that encourage self-centeredness destroy marriage.
One of these is the belief that co-dependent behavior is self-defeating and that we should rid ourselves of it. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing and a marriage wrecker. I'll try to explain why I feel so strongly about this issue.

First, let me define what co-dependency is. I'll use a quotes from an article by Edmund J. Bourne. (The internet link to the original article is no longer available. But the quotes I use are so typical of co-dependency thinking that I still find it useful. And there are very few in the movement who would refute the gist of his position).

According to Bourne,

"Co-dependency can be defined as the tendency to put others needs before your own. You accommodate to others to such a degree that you tend to discount or ignore your own feelings, desires and basic needs. Your self-esteem depends largely on how well you please, take care of and/or solve problems for someone else (or many others)."
I look at that definition and think of Mother Teresa, how co-dependent she must have been. Not that I'm a Mother Teresa, but I certainly feel that I aspire to those objectives. If I find my self-esteem in the way I care for others, what's wrong with that? If we were all co-dependent, wouldn't this be a wonderful world?

Dr. Bourne offers us a questionnaire to complete to see if we are "dealing with co-dependency issues." Lets look at them one at a time:

1. If someone important to me expects me to do something, I should do it.
I don't hop whenever someone says hop. But if, say, God expects something of me (and he's certainly important), I believe I should do it. Okay, I'll leave God out of it. What about my wife, Joyce. Should I meet her every expectation? For starters, I can't do it. But on the other hand, I care about her. I want to do what I can to meet her needs, and avoid doing things that make her unhappy. She's not a princess and I'm not a slave, but she's important to me and I try to do what she expects of me. So if the person is as important as Joyce, I guess my answer to the first question is, "yes," with the qualifier, "try to do it."

2. I should not be irritable or unpleasant.
I know how people affect me when they're irritable or unpleasant. I want to head for the hills. So if I am concerned about how I affect other people, particularly Joyce, who has to live with me, I should protect her from my unpleasant tendencies, particularly my angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments and selfish demands. Those Love Busters can wreck our relationship in no time if I let them run amok. So my answer to this statement is "yes."

3. I shouldn't do anything to make others angry at me.
Well, let's see. What are some of the things I do that make others angry with me. I show them disrespect by interrupting them when they are talking, I point out their faults and failures, I get angry with them ... Yes, there are many things I've done that make others angry at me. When I am counseling, I can do some of them without my client feeling anger. They seem to expect me to point out their short-comings. In my years of counseling, very few clients have ever reported feeling angry with me.

But in my marriage, it's a different story. I firmly believe that when Joyce is angry with me, I had something to do with her experience. Because I don't want to do things that hurt her or upset her, I regret doing it.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that my mistakes justify an angry outburst on Joyce's part. She needs to protect me from her abusive behavior just as I need to protect her from mine. But if she feels anger toward me, I have done something that has annoyed or offended her, and should try to avoid it if I can. Another "yes" if it applies to Joyce, and a qualified "yes" regarding most other people.

4. I should keep people I love happy.
This gets to the core of what life in general, and marriage in particular, is all about. Why am I here, anyway? I chose psychology as a career partly because I wanted to make a difference in the lives of others. I specialized in marriage counseling because I found so many people in miserable marriages, and I thought I could help.

When I married Joyce, I wanted to make her happy. I know, we can't "make" anyone happy. Everyone has a huge role to play in their own happiness. But at least I wanted to try to meet her emotional needs, and I expected her to meet mine. And I wanted to avoid hurting her, just as I expected her to avoid hurting me. We both believed that we had a responsibility to each other to try to make each other happy, and avoid making each other unhappy.

I'm aware of the downside of trying to make people happy. If they turn all responsibility for their happiness over to us, we end up carrying a crushing load. But most people don't do that. It's only in unhealthy relationships that one person sucks the life out of the other. I'll get into that subject after we're done with the questionnaire, but with that qualification, my answer to this statement is, "yes."

5. It's usually my fault if someone I care about is upset with me.
This goes back to statement #3, that has to do with how I affect people. From a philosophical level, I think we can all agree that if someone is upset with us, we had at least something to do with their reaction. Whether or not we could have avoided it depends on all sorts of things, but even if we couldn't avoid it, it's still partially our fault. The word "usually" helps me answer this one with a "yes."

6. I obtain self-esteem out of helping others solve their problems.
What is self-esteem, anyway? It's feeling good about ourselves, feeling that we're okay. Getting back to my earlier question about the meaning of life, what do I have to feel good about? That I exist? No. I don't give myself any credit for my existence. I feel good about the choices I make and what I can do -- primarily for others. If I can't do anything for someone else, I'm certain I'd have no reason to have self-esteem.

Self-esteem is not something that I need in order to be productive. It's being productive that gives me self-esteem. It's what comes after we do something, not before. And what we do for self-esteem can't be just anything. It must be what we value. Of the things I do, what do I value the most? I'm afraid I fail the co-dependency test again. I value most what I do for others. So that means that the more I help others solve their problems, the better I feel about myself. I'm afraid this statements gets a "yes."

7. I tend to overextend myself in taking care of others.
Definitely, "yes."

8. If necessary, I put my own values or needs aside in order to preserve my relationship with my significant other.
We're talking about Joyce. This is a trick question because one of my values is to preserve my relationship with her at all costs. It is impossible to put that value aside, and still try to preserve my relationship with her. But I will assume that this statement refers to other values, and again I answer "yes."

9. I have a hard time receiving things from others.
I'd rather give than receive, if that's what the question is getting at. But I don't mind it when Joyce meets my needs. In fact, I expect her to meet my needs. So for the very first time, I will answer one of these statements with a "no."

10. Fear of someone else's anger has a lot of influence on what I say or do."
I'm one of those odd ducks that don't experience fear very often, so my answer to this one is also, "no." But I should add that people's anger does influence me, especially when it's Joyce's anger. But it is not fear that I experience, rather sadness that I did something to disappoint her.

After completing all these questions, I'm told by Dr. Bourne that if I answered three or more of these statements with a "yes," I am likely to be dealing with co-dependency issues. What does eight "yes" responses mean? I must be a basket case!

As I read on in his article, I discover that:

"The consequences of maintaining a co-dependent approach to life is a lot of resentment, frustration and unmet personal needs. When these feelings and needs remain unconscious, they often resurface as anxiety -- especially chronic, generalized anxiety. The long-term effects of co-dependency are enduring stress, fatigue, burnout and eventually serious physical illness."
Is it too late? Have I been co-dependent too long to avoid these terrible consequences? Reading these predictions would put most people into a panic, but, remember, I don't experience fear or anxiety very often.

Wait just a minute! If I'm co-dependent, why don't I experience fear very often. Why is anxiety one of my least-felt emotions. After all, since I am so very co-dependent, you'd think that I would be a bundle of jangled nerves. But I'm not. I'm none of those things that Dr. Bourne says co-dependent people are.

I'm clearly co-dependent (most of those who know me well would attest to that), but I have no anxiety problems whatsoever. And no problems with depression, either. In fact, I am inexplicably happy. And neither my wife nor I have any chemical dependency issues, either. We are in love with each other, and have a great marriage.

Pity the poor person who has an anxiety disorder. Or more to the point, pity that person's spouse. The solution to "chronic, generalized anxiety" is to

not do what others's expect,
be as irritable and unpleasant as you wish,
make people angry with you,
don't try to make the people you love happy,
don't blame yourself when someone you care for is upset with you,
gain self-esteem from what you do for yourself, rather than what you do for others,
don't ever care about others so much that you overextend yourself,
maintain your values and needs even if it means ruining your marriage,
take from others whenever you can, and
don't let someone else's anger deter you from your objectives.
A formula for sociopathic behavior if I've ever seen one. You go in with anxiety and come out a terrorist!
If you want to know the truth, co-dependent beliefs and behavior do not lead to anxiety. They lead to healthy, happy marriages. Joyce and I am living proof.

You may be thinking, But how can that be? We've all been taught not to be co-dependent. It's blasphemy to challenge such a well-established belief system. Dr. Harley, now that I know how you feel about co-dependency, I'm not sure I can accept any of your concepts. You have really disappointed me.

Give me a chance to redeem myself. I, of all people, understand how the concepts of co-dependency started. I had a one-year internship in a treatment center for chemical dependency, and I owned and operated ten such centers myself. Co-dependency was something all of us addressed in marriages where one or both spouses were addicted to drugs or alcohol.

When an alcoholic is married to a loving and caring spouse, the spouse's love and care is sucked in like a black hole. It drains the caring spouse of everything they have, leaving him or her not only exhausted, but also having failed to meet their sick spouse's needs. In these cases, the non-alcoholic spouse must emotionally detach themselves or becomes emotionally destroyed.

When the 10 statements that we just considered are applied to care of an alcoholic, the answers are very different than the ones I gave. Consider them in the context of living with an alcoholic:

If the "important" person is an alcoholic, what they expect is often totally unrealistic and should not be done. Their addiction causes them to suffer very negative consequences, and they expect their spouses to shield them from those consequences. It can't, and shouldn't be done. If I were married to an alcoholic, my answer to this statement would be "no."
Anyone living with an alcoholic is going to be irritable and unpleasant. It can't be avoided, because the environment is so incredibly sick -- "no".
If you deny an alcoholic's unrealistic request, he or she will become angry. So it's impossible to avoid their anger. Again, "no."
You can't keep an alcoholic happy, because their emotional needs are sacrificed for whatever it takes to get their next drink. "No."
An alcoholic is upset because his addiction is ruining him, not because of something his spouse did. It's not the spouse's fault that he's upset. "No."
If you think you will gain self-esteem helping an alcoholic solve his problems, short of helping him overcome his addiction, you're not going to have any self-esteem. That's because he can't solve his problems as long as he's addicted. "No" is the answer.
Talk about overextension! If you want to be really overextended and get nothing for your effort, try to take care of an alcoholic. "No."
The spouses of alcoholics often try to make excuses for the alcoholism. It's called "enabling." It makes it possible to continue the addiction without suffering some of the consequences. In fact, many spouses become alcoholic themselves, just to preserve their relationship. They set aside their healthy values and ignore their normal needs just to be close to someone in the process of self-destruction. Left to their own devices they are then both destroyed. "No."
When you are used to giving until it hurts, like you do in a relationship with an alcoholic, you forget about the fact that you need something in return. Answer this one "no."
Alcoholics are often angry, and in order to avoid physical and verbal abuse, an alcoholic's spouse develops anxiety from the very real risk of physical and emotional harm. Unless you want to go down in flames, answer, "no."
Now it all makes sense in the context of an alcoholic marriage, and that's the context for which it was originally created. It made sense to me then, and it still does as long as it is limited to spouses of alcoholics. The problem arose when the alcoholic spouse was left out of the equation, and it was applied to all of us.
I attended a workshop on co-dependency a few years ago where we were told that co-dependency was wrong in any relationship. As those of us in the audience questioned the proposal, we all began to realize that we were all co-dependent, as defined by the workshop leader. Many of us complained that the very definition was so broad as to include most of humanity (excluding sociopathic people, of course). They felt that their co-dependent tendencies didn't seem to be a problem for them, so why should they try to overcome it. The workshop leader himself was at a loss to explain why they should change, except to express the warning that it leads to "stress, fatigue, burnout and eventually serious physical illness."

Since most in the room were skeptics, I doubt that any of them adopted the change to "save their sanity." But there are many people who are not so well-protected. When they see a therapist for anxiety and he gives them this list of dos and don'ts, they are in no position to be analytic. They accept it as truth, and in a futile effort to overcome anxiety, they destroy their marriage.

It is a most alarming scenario, both from a mental health standpoint, and from a marital standpoint. I have found that ridding someone of "co-dependent tendencies" does not rid them of anxiety. There are many effective methods that achieve that important objective, but this is not one of them.

But it is more than an ineffective way to treat anxiety. It also undermines one of the most important aspects of a person's life, their marriage. I have witnessed many who have been "treated" for anxiety and depression only to learn how to become impossible to live with. After driving their spouse out of their lives with their newly acquired selfish and destructive behavior, they are left feeling more anxious and depressed than ever, and divorced as well.

The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems.

In my judgment, the co-dependency movement, which began with such valuable insight, has become a monster. In over-reaching, it has subjected healthy people to the same norms as unhealthy people, and in so doing, has caused much more harm than good. Married couples should be on guard from the ruinous effects of the co-dependency movement on marriage, especially if one of them suffers from anxiety or depression.


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## daisygirl 41

Thankyou for posting that article bfree.
Very helpful!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

Bfree, thanks for the Harley article. It was a really great read.

I started posting on TAM because there seemed to be so few people reconciling...everyone was divorcing, and it saddened me.

My personal values are that modern society has depreciated the notion of marriage and commitment. There is a limit to how far I can articulate that notion on TAM, since it comes partly from my religious beliefs. But TAM saddens me. And I really struggle in threads where someone is being advised to lose someone who is an unhealthy influence on their life. 

From time to time I get PMs from people suggesting that in reconciling with Mrs Wazza after her affair I have short changed myself. I could get someone better. When I try and explain my perspective, I get told I am rationalising.

Now I happen to be very lucky, that Mrs Wazza, while not perfect, is an AMAZING woman. But also, the decision to commit to a relationship, to work at it, to not walk because it is hard, brings many rewards in the long term. 

The thing is, I am supposed to look after myself, and not lose myself in deferring to Mrs Wazza's imperfections. What this ignores is MY imperfections. But you aren't allowed to mention that round here, because then it looks like you are condoning the affair.

You know what? When you say "****** this. This person really hurt me but I will stick with it. We will get through this together."...yes it brings a lot of pain but in the long term it brings a closeness far greater than the hit of first love. Because it's warts and all commitment.

Be honest, we all put up masks, we all think "If this person really knew me, they wouldn't like me"

Well I really know Mrs Wazza....I know the ugly side of her that led her to cheat...and it is real and is part of her, but I love her anyway. And a lot of closeness has come from that.

And I have my own ugly side. Truth to tell, she is in many ways a better person than me. I have my reasons that would justify leaving the marriage. She has hers. And we are both still here.

I am not trying to put down those who divorce I am just saying that, in the long term, reconciling may bring some pain but it can also bring some amazing rewards.

I half apologise for this post. I normally only post with a specific objective to help someone else, and here I am just writing my feelings. But maybe if someone else is thinking "reconciliation is too hard" this will help.

A marriage is precious. It should not be cheapened, it should not be thrown away lightly. 

Dig, Calvin, B1, Dr Mathias (sorry, I can't get used to the Mr thing), DD.....keep going. It can be sooooooo worth it.

Is my post rationalising theory? Well...I stayed for the kids. They are adults now. I could leave. And I am still here.


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## B1

HG, you have so many battles on your hands, his anxiety, spending and oh yeah, the A. Any one of these issues could easily destroy a marriage and your dealing with all three at once.

My heart goes out to you HG!

Perhaps the 180 is what you need to be doing now...


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## B1

_A mother is a person who seeing there are only four pieces of pie for five people, promptly announces she never did care for pie._

Happy mothers day to EI and ALL the mothers out there!

I Hope today brings you all some happiness and peace.

The boys have already given EI her cards and presents, it seems they couldn't wait and did it all late last night after I went to bed. I woke up to flowers, gifts and cards everywhere. The greatest thing about all that is I did not remind any of them, they did it all on their own  
They love their mom and so do I.


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## hopefulgirl

bfree - Wow. That is chilling. Thank you SO much for sharing that. I've been wary of that co-dependency stuff when I've come across it outside of addictions situations, and it never occurred to me that this might be going on in my husband's counseling sessions. But boy, it sure sounds like it. And he HAS been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder!

"Pity the poor person who has an anxiety disorder. Or more to the point, pity that person's spouse." Yep.

"But it is more than an ineffective way to treat anxiety. It also undermines one of the most important aspects of a person's life, their marriage. I have witnessed many who have been 'treated' for anxiety and depression only to learn how to become impossible to live with."

Not only that, but as I read in Not Just Friends last night (when I couldn't sleep), the counselor managed to "replicate the dysfunctional pattern of infidelity because the wall of confidentiality around the therapy excludes the spouse....If you're the unfaithful spouse, you may be creating another extramarital triangle if you use a therapist as your secret confidante."

He moved from complaining about me to the OW to complaining about me to the counselor. But as an apparent fan of co-dependency crap, the counselor encouraged him. (If I wasn't so exhausted, I'd be tempted to sue for malpractice.)

I may show this article to him, but I don't know if I'll do it today. I think I'll do the 180. Let him talk about his divorce plans. If I don't stand in the way, it may sound less attractive: he has no savings, only credit card debt and his income (he won't be able to continue his spending spree now!). And he has a TON of hobby crap (some really LARGE quantities of LARGE stuff he'll have to move out, because he said last night he won't contest me for the house since it was mine to begin with). We'll see how this plays out.

Thanks again for the valuable insight. That's REALLY helpful.


----------



## thatbpguy

hopefulgirl said:


> It's 3 and a half months since D-Day. Yes, I'm exhausted.
> 
> He came upstairs a bit ago to tell me he was moving the cot up to the main floor because it was too dusty in the basement. Odd that he would feel the need to come all the way up to the third floor to announce that to me. Unless he wanted to check on my mood?? I wasn't crying or anything, just sitting here at the computer - I just said "OK."
> 
> Maybe he was hoping I'd invite him to sleep in our bed? We only have one bed in the house. Ha! I don't think so. If anything, I'm going 180 on him.
> 
> I hear him clearing his throat down there - all that basement dust still bothering him?
> 
> I'm still numb. Our marriage may end in divorce. I didn't want that outcome. But he can't handle it if I try to discuss basic issues like his spending habits, or ask him questions about lies he told me during the affair. So we are not in a good place.
> 
> I sensed this, and didn't want to even start a conversation about anything of substance tonight - HE started it. I wonder if after his session, he wanted to bring things to a head?


No disrespect to you, but I just can't see why you have stuck with an addict like this for so long. It seems to me there comes a point in time when one has to get out for their own sanity.


----------



## AMU

BFree and Wazza - thank you both for your great posts. I read every single post on this thread and there is always so much wonderful information here, yet both of your posts struck a chord with me and I just wanted to say thanks.


----------



## bfree

hopefulgirl said:


> bfree - Wow. That is chilling. Thank you SO much for sharing that. I've been wary of that co-dependency stuff when I've come across it outside of addictions situations, and it never occurred to me that this might be going on in my husband's counseling sessions. But boy, it sure sounds like it. And he HAS been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder!
> 
> "Pity the poor person who has an anxiety disorder. Or more to the point, pity that person's spouse." Yep.
> 
> "But it is more than an ineffective way to treat anxiety. It also undermines one of the most important aspects of a person's life, their marriage. I have witnessed many who have been 'treated' for anxiety and depression only to learn how to become impossible to live with."
> 
> Not only that, but as I read in Not Just Friends last night (when I couldn't sleep), the counselor managed to "replicate the dysfunctional pattern of infidelity because the wall of confidentiality around the therapy excludes the spouse....If you're the unfaithful spouse, you may be creating another extramarital triangle if you use a therapist as your secret confidante."
> 
> He moved from complaining about me to the OW to complaining about me to the counselor. But as an apparent fan of co-dependency crap, the counselor encouraged him. (If I wasn't so exhausted, I'd be tempted to sue for malpractice.)
> 
> I may show this article to him, but I don't know if I'll do it today. I think I'll do the 180. Let him talk about his divorce plans. If I don't stand in the way, it may sound less attractive: he has no savings, only credit card debt and his income (he won't be able to continue his spending spree now!). And he has a TON of hobby crap (some really LARGE quantities of LARGE stuff he'll have to move out, because he said last night he won't contest me for the house since it was mine to begin with). We'll see how this plays out.
> 
> Thanks again for the valuable insight. That's REALLY helpful.


I'm glad that these posts may have given you some insight into what might be going on with his counseling sessions. I think counseling is great but it really is heavily dependent on both the counselor's beliefs/opinions and the clients willingness to express and maintain their own boundaries, even in counseling. Years ago I started getting terrible headaches. My doctor sent me to a specialist who then sent me to a neurologist. They wanted to put me on all sorts of medications for severe migraines and blood thinners because they said I had an artery problem in my neck. Turns out the whole problem was that I was taking martial arts classes at the time and was landing awkwardly when I was doing flips. I stopped going to the classes and never got another headache. Think of what might have happened had I heeded the doctors well meaning advice! Counselors and therapists are no different. They might think they know exactly what you need but if they lead you down a path that is wrong for you it can cause major problems. If this counselor is feeding him this codependency stuff and its not warranted he might become an anxiety ridden lonely mess before its all said and done. Other than making him aware of this information there is little you can do for him. But you can do something for yourself. I agree with B1. You really should be working toward making yourself a stronger individual. You can leave the door open for reconciliation but ultimately your husband has to decide to walk through it.


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Bfree, thanks for the Harley article. It was a really great read.
> 
> I started posting on TAM because there seemed to be so few people reconciling...everyone was divorcing, and it saddened me.
> 
> My personal values are that modern society has depreciated the notion of marriage and commitment. There is a limit to how far I can articulate that notion on TAM, since it comes partly from my religious beliefs. But TAM saddens me. And I really struggle in threads where someone is being advised to lose someone who is an unhealthy influence on their life.
> 
> From time to time I get PMs from people suggesting that in reconciling with Mrs Wazza after her affair I have short changed myself. I could get someone better. When I try and explain my perspective, I get told I am rationalising.
> 
> Now I happen to be very lucky, that Mrs Wazza, while not perfect, is an AMAZING woman. But also, the decision to commit to a relationship, to work at it, to not walk because it is hard, brings many rewards in the long term.
> 
> The thing is, I am supposed to look after myself, and not lose myself in deferring to Mrs Wazza's imperfections. What this ignores is MY imperfections. But you aren't allowed to mention that round here, because then it looks like you are condoning the affair.
> 
> You know what? When you say "****** this. This person really hurt me but I will stick with it. We will get through this together."...yes it brings a lot of pain but in the long term it brings a closeness far greater than the hit of first love. Because it's warts and all commitment.
> 
> Be honest, we all put up masks, we all think "If this person really knew me, they wouldn't like me"
> 
> Well I really know Mrs Wazza....I know the ugly side of her that led her to cheat...and it is real and is part of her, but I love her anyway. And a lot of closeness has come from that.
> 
> And I have my own ugly side. Truth to tell, she is in many ways a better person than me. I have my reasons that would justify leaving the marriage. She has hers. And we are both still here.
> 
> I am not trying to put down those who divorce I am just saying that, in the long term, reconciling may bring some pain but it can also bring some amazing rewards.
> 
> I half apologise for this post. I normally only post with a specific objective to help someone else, and here I am just writing my feelings. But maybe if someone else is thinking "reconciliation is too hard" this will help.
> 
> A marriage is precious. It should not be cheapened, it should not be thrown away lightly.
> 
> Dig, Calvin, B1, Dr Mathias (sorry, I can't get used to the Mr thing), DD.....keep going. It can be sooooooo worth it.
> 
> Is my post rationalising theory? Well...I stayed for the kids. They are adults now. I could leave. And I am still here.


Very good post Wazza. You and I sometimes disagree with the approach but we always seem to agree on the goal. Marriage should be treated as a living breathing thing. It has to be nourished and cared for and when its sick extra attention has to be given to make it well again. You are correct, we all wear masks at various points. I will also add that each and every one of us has a dark side. Just because the conditions haven't been optimal to display it doesn't mean its not there. To deny its existence is to give it power and to be unprepared for when it does reveal itself. I once heard the statement that the best trick the devil ever played is to convince the world he didn't exist. I feel the same way with our darker more selfish sides. We pretend that they aren't there because it makes it easier for us to look in the mirror and see ourselves as good moral people who would never do what others might do and have done. Its just another example of a mask, one that we wear when seeing ourselves. I KNOW I am capable of doing terrible things. I've done them. And I KNOW I am probably capable of doing things that are even worse than what I've already done. To deny it is dangerous for myself and those I love. It is also the height of hubris.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thanks again, bfree, and B1. I'm definitely doing the 180. 

He said little to me this morning, except to reference something about my part-time job status. He has been angry since I started working only a few hours a week. Even though I supported HIM (paying his share of monthly expenses and paying off his credit cards on several occasions) for a number of years before my job situation changed a couple years ago.

I even bought him his car from a small inheritance I got. It would take him years of providing most of the financial support to make up for all the financial support I've provided him, but he conveniently forgets that when his NEED for more hobby stuff takes over his mind.

I think what really bothers him is that he can't spend thousands of dollars a month on his hobbies like he used to - the standard of living he had grown used to, even though we're not wealthy people. He spent just over ONE thousand last month, a little more than a third of his take home pay. It was two thousand the month before, so, hey, that's an improvement. I bet he didn't mention that to his counselor - though he probably told her I was keeping track of his spending, and how awful am I for doing THAT?

What he said to me was, "I bet you're going to look for a job NOW." I said, in a very upbeat, take charge voice, "Oh yeah, you're right about that!!" I even managed a little smile. As if to say, onward and upward.


----------



## jupiter13

I would like to wish all mother a very Happy Mother's Day and hope you enjoy your day. I would also like to report that WS has been able to open up and talk as we should have been doing all along and things look very positive today for the R to be successful. I will be starting a thread with a new question. I look forward to hearing everyones view. Have a great day.


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## calvin

Happy Mothers Day CSS,I love you.
Happy Mothers Day ladies.
I need to get cracking,going to have a house full soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dogman

AMU said:


> BFree and Wazza - thank you both for your great posts. I read every single post on this thread and there is always so much wonderful information here, yet both of your posts struck a chord with me and I just wanted to say thanks.



Amu, are you OK? 
Is HB ok?


----------



## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> He's in IC. We aren't in MC because I wasn't sure we were really ready yet - I was seeing "on and off" signs of remorse and willingness to answer my questions. He has shut down on some occasions when I asked questions. He's a little better when it comes to the mental health issues he started counseling for.


About the therapists...it's so hard to find the RIGHT one. The wrong one can be really destructive, or totally ineffective. I agree with you that his personal therapist seems to be trying to turn him away from you (which they tend to do too often, in my experience, especially without even getting an accurate view of things by talking to the other person). Both of the therapists I've gone to recently have tried to push me to consider walking away from GF because *she* might not be able to meet *my* needs. :scratchhead: It really bothers me because I had already made my feelings and goals clear. "Are you sure someone else wouldn't be better suited...?" they ask me. YES, I'M SURE. 

Your H needs to be careful about just sucking up everything his therapist says. They're human, too, with their own prejudices and agendas. They're not oracles. He needs to carefully examine what he's being told.


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## calvin

House is getting full!! Someone get me out of here!
Its pretty good everyone is getting along and staring at my sauce.
Guess their hungry,time to slop the hogs.
CSS didn't do much,she shouldn't have too today.
I got it.
Actually had to stop her.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> House is getting full!! Someone get me out of here!
> Its pretty good everyone is getting along and staring at my sauce.
> Guess their hungry,time to slop the hogs.
> CSS didn't do much,she shouldn't have too today.
> I got it.
> Actually had to stop her.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is she the type to run around non stop serving and cleaning up? I got one of those. It's more work to try to get her to sit down than to do all the work she was trying to do.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Is she the type to run around non stop serving and cleaning up? I got one of those. It's more work to try to get her to sit down than to do all the work she was trying to do.


Yes she does befree,even if the party is for her.
It takes a little convincing but sometimes I can get her to cool her heals.
I'm in the bathroom just because the house is full and I can hear her doing dishes, I'll have to put a stop to this.
We really do make a good team,when we work together we accomplish quiet a bit.
It makes me happy and sad at the same time if that makes any sense.
Together we will keep moving forward on the right path.
Her parents and mine and the rest of the family on both sides are having a good day.
Its nice....back to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

soulpotato said:


> About the therapists...it's so hard to find the RIGHT one. The wrong one can be really destructive, or totally ineffective. I agree with you that his personal therapist seems to be trying to turn him away from you (which they tend to do too often, in my experience, especially without even getting an accurate view of things by talking to the other person). Both of the therapists I've gone to recently have tried to push me to consider walking away from GF because *she* might not be able to meet *my* needs. :scratchhead: It really bothers me because I had already made my feelings and goals clear. "Are you sure someone else wouldn't be better suited...?" they ask me. YES, I'M SURE.
> 
> Your H needs to be careful about just sucking up everything his therapist says. They're human, too, with their own prejudices and agendas. They're not oracles. He needs to carefully examine what he's being told.


Yikes! It's really interesting how these therapists can "see" the that a huge problem MUST lie with the BS who isn't even in the therapy room, and this big problem could be solved by walking away from her. What's up with THAT? 

Thanks for sharing that, soulpotato.

Well, it's small consolation, but he's back in full diarrhea and headache mode, just like he was in the days after D-Day. I mean, he was moaning in the bathroom! If it was meant to elicit a "can I help you - are you OK" from me, it did not work. If he calls for help, of course I'll come to his aid.

I was out doing errands much of the day. I enjoyed the sunshine. I have a bounce in my step. When I got home, I saw the peanut butter jar was out, so he had "dined" already; I made some scrambled eggs and English muffins, a Sunday supper he'd have liked (we both like it), though I'd have made turkey sausage for him too if I'd been cooking for him - WHICH I'M NOT, now that we're "separated" in the house.

Yesterday he talked about taking off work tomorrow to go to a lawyer. No mention of that today. We'll see. We both watched 60 Minutes in the same room together, and he didn't hear some things and asked me what was said, but that's about all the converstation so far.

Like you said, bfree, I'm working on getting strong. I also agree with your point about how there could still be a possibility of R:

"You can leave the door open for reconciliation but ultimately your husband has to decide to walk through it."


----------



## thatbpguy

hopefulgirl said:


> Like you said, bfree, I'm working on getting strong.


Excellent. Keep it up.


----------



## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> Yikes! It's really interesting how these therapists can "see" the that a huge problem MUST lie with the BS who isn't even in the therapy room, and this big problem could be solved by walking away from her. What's up with THAT?


Yes, and that seems to be the first thing they advise for how to deal with problems! Just leave. It blows me away. But I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

I'm sorry that things have gone backwards between you and the H for the moment.


----------



## AMU

dogman said:


> Amu, are you OK?
> Is HB ok?


Thanks, Dogman, for caring. Been a bittersweet day for me, as I lost my own mom 27 years ago today - kept busy and mostly happy this Mother's Day hanging out with our beautiful girls, but sure wished my mom had been able to know them and watch them grow. 

My mom died from complications of alcoholism, and I’m now married to an alcoholic who doesn’t want any help and has no recognition of the impact his disease has had on our entire family for years and years. The past year has been especially brutal for so many reasons, and the drinking has spun out of control. It’s been a long road, but I’ve been trying to take steps to take care of myself and the girls, as he has to decide when and if he wants to seek help.


----------



## dogman

AMU said:


> Thanks, Dogman, for caring. Been a bittersweet day for me, as I lost my own mom 27 years ago today - kept busy and mostly happy this Mother's Day hanging out with our beautiful girls, but sure wished my mom had been able to know them and watch them grow.
> 
> My mom died from complications of alcoholism, and I’m now married to an alcoholic who doesn’t want any help and has no recognition of the impact his disease has had on our entire family for years and years. The past year has been especially brutal for so many reasons, and the drinking has spun out of control. It’s been a long road, but I’ve been trying to take steps to take care of myself and the girls, as he has to decide when and if he wants to seek help.


Sorry about your mother. 
My mother was and is an alcoholic. I've learned that there are different kinds of alcoholics. My mother was not chemically addicted but rather she used alcohol and it had a huge negative effect on her/our life. My story is in my profile. 
While its not sneak drinking and hiding booze, it's just as devastating.

I hope you two can find some safe ground to live on and raise your kids together.


----------



## margrace

> My personal values are that modern society has depreciated the notion of marriage and commitment....Mrs Wazza, while not perfect, is an AMAZING woman. But also, the decision to commit to a relationship, to work at it, to not walk because it is hard, brings many rewards in the long term.





bfree said:


> Very good post Wazza. You and I sometimes disagree with the approach but we always seem to agree on the goal. Marriage should be treated as a living breathing thing. It has to be nourished and cared for and when its sick extra attention has to be given to make it well again.


thanks to both of you for the wonderful posts. you always articulate and frame out some of the vague feelings that i have... and _that _lets me think more clearly about them. so helpful.


----------



## margrace

hopefulgirl said:


> He's in IC. We aren't in MC because I wasn't sure we were really ready yet - I was seeing "on and off" signs of remorse and willingness to answer my questions. He has shut down on some occasions when I asked questions. He's a little better when it comes to the mental health issues he started counseling for.


hopefulgirl, so sorry to hear about this latest round of ups and downs. lots of us have had that awful "d-day all over again" experience 

i have a strong gut feeling this morning as i read through your posts: i think that MC might possibly help.

your H's IC sounds a bit iffy right now, even though it has, as you say, helped his personal mental health issues somewhat. that's good, and maybe it will continue to do that -- i hope so!

in the meantime, some of the _couples_ issues, the _relational _issues that are harming your marriage... those issues belong to the _two_ of you as a couple, as a team, as a dynamic system. i don't think you can ever get your hands on that in IC (even with a great IC and even when you discuss the sessions) in the same way that you can in MC.

i had to learn this: the marriage itself has to be treated as a living, breathing thing too, as bfree put it. i would have told you that i knew it before  but i didn't.

MC helped us see this and feel this in a very different way than IC or books had done (as helpful as both of those were).

in fact, even the _we're-not-ready-for-MC_ feeling might turn out to be part of what you successfully tackle in MC. just something to think about


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thanks much, margrace. I had actually brought up MC a day or two after D-Day, and he poo-poo'd it because we'd had a handful of couples counseling sessions last summer with disastrous results. 

He blew up in the last session we went to (he wouldn't go to any more after that), furious with me for saying things in front of the counselor that he felt made him look like a "hoarder" (I brought up his hobby stuff). In fact, in a recent conversation, he said he felt that the things I said I "betrayed" him. The EA started less than a month after that with a midnight text to the OW on a business trip, so I suggested that maybe he felt "justified" then in betraying ME because he was still angry. He made a "hmmm" kind of face, as if he considered that connection to be plausible.

Of course, that's not the whole "reason" for what he did, but I think his wanting to complain about me to someone and being SO over the top angry about that session helped make the EA happen.

Having said that, you are probably right - MC might be in order. The marriage itself needs to be treated as a thing to be healed. And maybe MC might be a good way to get him to stop (or at least put on hold) his IC, which is clearly undermining our marriage. 

He decided to end our separation last night. I don't know why. Being sick may have had something to do with it. He came up and got into our bed around 1:00 and mumbled something about having a hard time sleeping downstairs (I think he'd moved from the cot to a recliner, neither working out well). Once in bed he said "let's have peace in the family, and forget what happened." 

:scratchhead:

He was still sick today and stayed home from work. I wasn't going to back off from my 180 plan, so I was pleasant but not chatty and did chores and got ready for work.

A couple hours after I got to work I got a text from him: "Sorry I'm such a big poop head. I'm so confused." I may have backed off a little from the 180 when I texted back "I still love you."

He's playing video games now, so that's why I have a moment to myself. I'm so tired, I don't WANT to do any talking about anything of substance with him for awhile, maybe a few days. I just don't want to deal with the drama. The part I like about the 180 is taking care of myself and getting strong. When we argued the other day, he was doing a lot of blameshifting, and I'm just refusing to allow that now, even if he IS confused.


----------



## daisygirl 41

I saw the exOW yesterday.
H txt me to say she would be at my place of work around 2pm.
I actually didnt feel to anxious about it and even felt quite empowered.
I went out of my way to make sure she saw me and held my head up high. She turned and saw me and instantly put her head down and turned away :smthumbup:

The kids in school are ace. A few of them called my name out and one of them came to give me a hug!! HA!! 

This is MY place of work and she IS NOT going to make me feel uncomfortable here.

We have a training day in June, she will be there, so will I and so will H. I wasnt going to attend but i think this has given me the push i need to have the confidence to do it. I will also have the support of some of my co workers who know what has gone on and they have all said they will be there to support me.

H and I call her "The Walker". I survived the zombie apocalypse for another day!!


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> I saw the exOW yesterday.
> H txt me to say she would be at my place of work around 2pm.
> I actually didnt feel to anxious about it and even felt quite empowered.
> I went out of my way to make sure she saw me and held my head up high. She turned and saw me and instantly put her head down and turned away :smthumbup:
> 
> The kids in school are ace. A few of them called my name out and one of them came to give me a hug!! HA!!
> 
> This is MY place of work and she IS NOT going to make me feel uncomfortable here.
> 
> We have a training day in June, she will be there, so will I and so will H. I wasnt going to attend but i think this has given me the push i need to have the confidence to do it. I will also have the support of some of my co workers who know what has gone on and they have all said they will be there to support me.
> 
> H and I call her "The Walker". I survived the zombie apocalypse for another day!!


Well done dg!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Hopefulgirl, even though you weren't pulling away from him for very long maybe he sensed it. You can still be pleasant but do not chase him for or about anything. Maybe if he thinks you are moving on he will reevaluate his course.


----------



## margrace

hopefulgirl said:


> He blew up in the last session we went to (he wouldn't go to any more after that), furious with me for saying things in front of the counselor that he felt made him look like a "hoarder" (I brought up his hobby stuff). In fact, in a recent conversation, he said he felt that the things I said I "betrayed" him. ...I'm so tired, I don't WANT to do any talking about anything of substance with him for awhile, maybe a few days. I just don't want to deal with the drama. The part I like about the 180 is taking care of myself and getting strong.


 wow  i'm sure that both you and/or the MC explained something like this to him: his feelings (that you betrayed him by speaking negatively about his hobbies) are very, very important -- so important that he should have said it right then and there, in the session! then the two of you and the MC would have had the opportunity to follow that path wherever it goes, openly and without hostility. instead he withheld it, blew up at you privately, and possibly used it as an excuse for acting out later.

again, i feel certain that you've said all this to him, but it would be great if he could consider that MC is not a place to withhold thoughts or feelings or to worry about how we are _looking_ (whether it's like a hoarder or anything else) to the counselor. the best counselor can do NOTHING for you if that's your MO. you might as well just save your money and stay home. 

yes, he will need to withstand the daylight pouring into some places that he has tried to hide from you and from the man in the mirror. but does he understand that _you_ are in MC to be open as never before _too_, and to expose things that you're not proud of _too_, and to learn and grow in those places _too_? the two of you together need to hold hands and jump into that, but you can't accomplish anything doing it _alone_.

you are asking him, and asking yourself, to do something really hard. your H needs to shoulder that -- to stop being confused and stop being sick and _step up _if he wants to be accountable to you and to himself and thereby save his marriage. or not.

that's the point that i got to, after having everyone on this thread point out to me that i was doing all the work . 

i finally saw that i was trying to play every position on the team. that's how i worded it to my H, and like you, i had gotten very, very tired by that time.

and like you, taking care of myself saved me at that point! i maintained my open position regarding the work that needed to be done on the marriage, but i just stopped (_really_ stopped) trying to do it all. it took a month or 2 for him to mull that over, but once he did, he really _used_ MC. before that, his body was in the room, but he wasn't working.


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> I saw the exOW yesterday.
> H txt me to say she would be at my place of work around 2pm.
> I actually didnt feel to anxious about it and even felt quite empowered.....
> H and I call her "The Walker". I survived the zombie apocalypse for another day!!


love it :smthumbup: good for you and H, dg


----------



## hopefulgirl

Big sigh. 

In addition to everything else that's gone on, there was a sort of D-Day #2 yesterday.

He was trying to be supportive of my Dancing With the Stars interest (it's a TV show). I was planning to vote for my favorite couple, and you can vote up to 5 times. He handed me his cell phone - because he had watched and was really impressed - so that I could cast 5 more votes on his phone. Then he headed to the basement to play video games. The show was still going on and he wasn't THAT interested, but knew I'd still be watching it.

BUT I wasn't. 

I used the opportunity to check something. It had occurred to me that while I knew the OW had at least 2 different phone numbers, I noticed that WS had texted 2 different numbers, one right after the other, on that midnight when the EA started. But that second number wasn't either of the two numbers I knew for SURE to be the OW's.

OW's main cell responded to him the next morning around 7:00, and there were about 4 texts back and forth at that time. The other number responded just once around 12:20. (I thought maybe she was telling him she'd get back to him in the morning, and that her main cell phone wasn't working well or something.) The next day from 7:45 AM to 2:45 PM, WS and that other number have over 50 texts back and forth throughout his workday. (I've never had that even half many texts with him during a workday!) Until yesterday I assumed this was a third number of the OW's. Nope. I did a search of his contacts. ANOTHER woman.

She's from the area where he used to live, so he may have dated her before (an old GF?) or maybe he just knew her (I did a search, and she's a cashier at one of those big gas stations that also has groceries) - he chats a lot (flirts?) with clerks and waitress types.

That's the ONLY time I see that number come up on the cell phone records (which I've printed out for the last several months). But her name AND address is in his contacts, and he has very few addresses in his contacts. THAT bothered me. That suggested he's been to her place. Again, if she'd been a GF in the past, well, OK. But could he have been there more recently? I doubt it. No texts or calls, other than that one night.

Again, he was still seething about that counseling session, during which he says I "betrayed" him. He's also said he was feeling lonely. So one right after the other, he texts 2 women at midnight. And he has never confessed about this other one, even though I have told him that I "figured out" that the start date for the EA part of his affair was that night because I thought he had texted back and forth with the *OW* more than 50 times during his workday after that midnight text to her. (I still count that date as the beginning, even if they only had 4 texts back and forth the next day - he started things rolling by reaching out to her that night....there was a big gap between then and the next contact, but I still see that as the starting point.)

Well, he texted me yesterday that he's "confused." I'll say. "Messed up" is more like it. I'm going to continue on my 180 plan. I won't be bringing up this new discovery any time soon. Maybe not until a MC session (oh, but that might be a "betrayal!"). 

I'm trying to stay hopeful. Sometimes it's hard.


----------



## hopefulgirl

margrace said:


> wow  i'm sure that both you and/or the MC explained something like this to him: his feelings (that you betrayed him by speaking negatively about his hobbies) are very, very important -- so important that he should have said it right then and there, in the session! then the two of you and the MC would have had the opportunity to follow that path wherever it goes, openly and without hostility. instead he withheld it, blew up at you privately, and possibly used it as an excuse for acting out later.


margrace, it was worse than that: he blew up IN the session. Not yelling, but seething. He looked like he was boiling with rage. He did wait until the hour was over, but he then rushed right out to the car. I was still in the building and the counselor actually asked me if I felt SAFE going home with him! That's how worked up he got.

Thank you so much for your post. I'm going to print it for a reminder to myself. I will use your language when the right time comes to talk about making an appointment. And the way you describe what you were doing (such as "trying to play every position on the team") fits me to a "T." 

Thanks so much for your great insight.

bfree, I believe you are right that even though it was a short amount of time, he may indeed have sensed my pulling away. I will be pleasant but will not chase now. Time to take care of me, time to be strong.


----------



## margrace

hopefulgirl said:


> Big sigh.
> 
> In addition to everything else that's gone on, there was a sort of D-Day #2 yesterday.... I did a search of his contacts. ANOTHER woman....He's said he was feeling lonely. So one right after the other, he texts 2 women at midnight. And he has never confessed about this other one....
> 
> I'm trying to stay hopeful. Sometimes it's hard.


oh, no. i teared up reading this. i'm sooooo sorry, hg.

it's so terribly painful when you realize that you have been through so much and yet you _still_ don't even know what all happened (or what is happening now, for that matter). it's painful and it's downright *scary* to see how these other people (one of whom had your unquestioned trust) feel free to trick you and keep you in the dark while they do whatever.

it is something that i have had to ask my fWH many times: how could you go on tricking me and betraying me even after you saw what it was doing to me?

he has since looked into that dark place, which i respect, and can see and talk about the ways that he was lost, _even lost to himself._ that doesn't magically take the pain away but it definitely gave us a way to go forward.

i'm afraid that your H is lost right now. i'm going to ask my H what he sees in this.


----------



## cpacan

hopefulgirl said:


> Big sigh.
> 
> I'm trying to stay hopeful. Sometimes it's hard.


Here is a rare one liner from me: If it's too hard, stop hoping for the future, concentrate on what you have now and what you can do for yourself


----------



## old timer

cpacan said:


> Here is a rare one liner from me: If it's too hard, stop hoping for the future, concentrate on what you have now and what you can do for yourself


Good words to live by in any circumstance in life. 
.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

old timer said:


> Good words to live by in any circumstance in life.
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. Sometimes I just wish it didn't take 46 years, spiced up with infidelity, to figure it out.


----------



## EI

The closer we get to D-Day, May 27th, the more pain he is in. We've had some good days, some very good days recently, mixed in, I think, but he's hurting. The last few weeks have been tough on him, so obviously, they're tough for both of us. He's spending a lot of time retracing the events of this month, this time last year. It's when he began to realize "things weren't quite right," and his gut started telling him that I was lying to him. I'm so sad and ashamed of the things I said and did during the "A," and I'm so sad and ashamed of the way I handled the initial aftermath of D-Day. 

I was so resentful, angry, bitter, defiant and defensive in the first several weeks. Even as we began to work on ourselves and on our marriage, those feelings were still simmering beneath the surface and continued to bubble over, on occasion, until we truly dealt with some of our pre-A issues during those first few months. I'm not trying to defend my thoughts, words and actions at the time. I'm simply acknowledging the events as they occurred.

I feel as though we talk, about the affair, ad nauseum, every single day. B1 seems to feel as though there are still so many missing pieces of the puzzle. He's openly wept more in the last month than he has since late last summer. I can't give him any more information than I already have. I can't think of anything left to tell him that he doesn't already know. But, every once in a while he'll ask a question that he has asked 100 times in a 100 different ways, but there will be some new twist that will cause me to remember some seemingly minute detail....... But, when it comes to infidelity, I'm beginning to fully comprehend that there is no minute detail as far as the betrayed is concerned. So, something as insignificant as did I or did I not wash my hair there (xOM's house) when I took a bath becomes something painful for him to process. I had always said that I had not washed my hair there.... I didn't, mostly because I have a million "hair products" and without them my hair is an uncontrollable disaster. 

Last night, when B1 was asking some questions, I remembered that I had washed my hair there once. Then, I had to really think about it to remember why. I remembered that we had gone for an unplanned drive in his jeep with the top down. I had a lot of hair spray in my hair and when we got back to his house my hair was a sticky, wind-blown mess. That's why I had washed my hair there..... I had completely forgotten about that one time. For B1, it wasn't about realizing another deception or a TT, and it didn't create a new trust issue, (I don't think) it was just another painful realization for B1 to absorb.... another visual, another event, another heartbreak. </3 I can tell you that it would be very tempting to conveniently "forget" these random "pop up" memories..... which are far and few between, anymore. But, when he asks me something, I have to stop, think and remember (I don't want to,) because, I made a conscious decision on D-Day not to dwell on those thoughts, not to try and commit every last detail to memory, but to put it, him, all of it, behind me and out of my mind. Even back then, when I still had thoughts of a potential future with the xOM, I knew that from that day forward, that as long as B1 and I were still married and still living under the same roof that I could no longer carry on that relationship. I had to let it go...... and, I did. It was the only way to give our marriage, which B1, now, seemed ready, willing and able to fight for..... with me, not against me, a fair shot. It is what I had hoped, begged and prayed for for years prior to my "A." 

When B1 sees me pause, to pull up a memory, I know he can see the look on my face...... in that moment, I have to decide to trust that he can handle one more truth, however small it may seem. The other option is to deceive. I find that I can't even tell a white lie to him, (which includes "sins of omission," anymore, without becoming physically distraught. So, I even have to confess that, yes, I had Subway 3 days in a row for lunch 3 weeks ago. I'm hooked on Tuna Subs. It's not that he minds if I get lunch out, when I'm running errands, but 3 days in a row is excessive, so I feel like I gotta tell him. Just like I had to tell him that I knew about my new ring before he gave it to me for Valentine's Day. I have "alerts" set up on our credit/debit cards if purchases exceed a certain $ amount. I was walking out of the pharmacy when my cell phone dinged. I got a text telling me the $ amount and the place of purchase. It was a dead give-a-way..... 

I hate EVER bringing up the xOM. I rarely, if ever, do at home....... I follow B1's lead. I love B1 with all of my heart.... everyday, I apologize for hurting him and our children, everyday, we talk about the infidelity, everyday. But, I do not speak of xOM...... just about me and how I betrayed B1. I don't even want to say xOM's name. The man who makes repairs on our son's wheelchair shares the same name. I have called him by his first name for the 10 or so years I've known him. I have now begun calling him "Mr. Last name." He probably thinks I'm looney..... I don't care. I haven't mentioned xOM on TAM in months....... I really hoped never to do so again. I would rather focus on the fact that I betrayed B1 and that we are working very diligently on our reconciliation.

I'm sharing this not because he's upset that I washed my hair over there. I'm sharing it because that's what we do. We share it so others can see what infidelity "might" look like a year later when both spouses are working really hard to reconcile. I'm also sharing it so you guys can offer B1 some support and encouragement that it gets better on down the line. We are both hoping that after the month of May passes that it will get a bit easier. He says that he needs to be able to say, "One year ago today, she was mine, only mine, all mine." How lucky am I that he feels that way??? Words can't describe how much that means to me. <3 I'm also sharing it because I need to be reassured that he can truly heal from this. Selfishly, I know that unless and until he fully heals that neither can I. 

I want for us to be okay..... Does anyone ever truly believe that's possible???


----------



## TCSRedhead

I think there are many shades of ok, EI. You're both working so hard and love each other so much. Emotional wounds run deep and take a long time to heal but you've both already come so far.

I truly believe you'll both make it to brighter shades of ok on the other side of this.


----------



## EI

Mulligan, anyone?


----------



## TCSRedhead

Let me know if you perfect that time machine. I got a few things to do-over MUCH differently.


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> Mulligan, anyone?


Nope, sorry you double bogeyed that one last year. But the good news is that the game isn't over and you've birdied every hole since. I'd say you're under par and you might still play your best game yet.


----------



## Wazza

EI, first is, never hide the details. If you go back to my very first posts on TAM, which were at the start of this thread, you will know Mrs Wazza did not give me the truth at the time of discovery. I let it go because I was only staying for the kids. After I started reading TAM, and we were reconciled, we reopened the question and she gave me what may be the truth, but I cannot verify and I will never be 100% sure. That will always be a limitation on our relationship. For B1's sake, don't make the same mistake.

I can tell you it gets better, I can tell you my marriage is the best it has ever been, I can tell you I want to be with this woman.

I can't tell you that I fully healed, but I don't believe changing partners or living alone would heal me. My expectations of marriage were wrong. My current understanding is far more realistic. It just happens inside me, probably inside all of us, there is a little child who wants unconditional, immutable love. And such love doesn't exist between people.

You can decide to consume your life with the quixotic search for such love in a human being, and you will never find it, though you may find the illusion of it if you can deceive yourself. Or you can deal in the real world, and rejoice in what you have that, while not perfect, is very good.

And if you can rejoice in the very good, then yes, you will be ok. I truly believe that is possible. Further, because you are cleaning up the untruth now as best you can, you have the potential to have a happier ending than I have.


----------



## CantSitStill

Good post Wazza
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

EI, I can't imagine anyone doing a better job of demonstrating true remorse than you. And anything that you've left out wasn't due to an attempt to continue to deceive B1. 

Perhaps in an unconscious attempt to protect yourself from the pain of guilt, some details got put just out of reach of your recall. They may come back now, with new questions that jar your memory, and more truth is revealed. These things may or may not help B1, but as long as he thinks it's important, it's important to try to get at them. Because due to the trauma, we BS's feel so helpless and yes, even stupid with that "left in the dark" feeling. The details give us knowledge that helps us reclaim SOME sense of power over that period of time.

As someone else once said (sorry I forget who, or I'd give credit where it's due): as long as it's not designed to rub your nose in it, going over the who, what, when, and where is necessary for our healing. (Personally, I don't want to know the how - sex details would probably make me vomit. As for the why, there are probably many of those; I think in terms of "what were the vulnerabilities" that made it easier for it to happen, and in most situations that list can be quite long....)

You two are in it for the long haul. When I think of the love that you have for each other, and how much you have invested in each other and in your marriage, I'm sure you'll weather this storm. This is a challenging phase, but think about what it will look like a year or two or three down the line: the sting will be MUCH less. You'll get through this. You've both got what it takes.


----------



## bfree

B1, if you read this you have my prayers for strength and resilience. I know this is a difficult time but it is the hammer that shapes and the fire that tempers. You will come out of this better than ever.


----------



## B1

Yes, I am here now and thank you Bfree,HG, tcs and wazza. It has been a rough day or two but nothing that EI and I can't handle. She has been wonderful, answering my questions, and just being there hearing me out and listening, and being understanding and compassionate. 

It's different now, bad times I know are just that..bad times, it's not forever and it's not the end, it's just part of this journey. We are so good at communicating now, talking things out and working together.
We got this.


----------



## CantSitStill

I know you two can get thru this, you both have inspired us to keep on keepin on 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Help, please! Seeking some advice.

WS has been very nice to me. Expressing extra appreciation for meals cooked, texting silly stuff to me from work, cheering when my favorite couple moved on to the finals in Dancing With the Stars - things like that. He has kissed me on the cheek too.

So the 180 appears to be working. 

There has been no relationship talk other than his text to me a couple days ago (he stayed home sick, I was at work): "Sorry I'm such a big poop head. I'm so confused." (I did reply "I still love you")

Anyway, I think a lot of his confusion comes from the messages he's getting from his IC. He goes again tomorrow. I think one reason he has been so silent about what goes on there (or even WHEN he goes there - for awhile, they didn't have a regular day and time so I wasn't even sure when he went!) was because there were so many glass half empty things said about me and about the marriage.

On the one hand, I feel like I shouldn't say anything negative about his IC - that might only make him defend the counselor (he's a knight in shining armor type, and she IS female). On the other hand, bfree has pointed out that it's very possible that she could be filling his head with codependency notions that are marriage-killers.

I also came across this when I was looking on a website for names of marriage-friendly therapists:

_Individual therapy may undermine more marriages than even poor couples therapy. Because relationship problems are the main problem people bring to individual therapists, individual therapists are treating marriages whether or not they realize it. Unless the therapist has values that support marriage and is careful not to turn the non-present partner into a villain, individual therapy can undermine a marriage. Every experienced marriage therapist has heard these stories: a spouse goes into individual therapy, receives support for a one-sided view of the marriage problems, and becomes increasingly pessimistic about the marriage. The therapist then questions why the person stays in an obviously bad marriage. The other spouse is clueless that the marriage is unraveling in therapy, and is not informed until it’s too late. These therapists do not intend harm, but often their orientation is to the personal happiness of their individual client who is distressed in a marriage, without enough regard for the welfare of the other spouse and the children—and for the lifelong commitment that the client once made to the marriage for "better and worse." _

I think this is probably what has been going on. I'm tempted to read this to him and suggest that his "confusion" could possibly be due to the above, and also suggest that he ask his therapist to restrict her work with him to the problem she specializes in, which is what he originally came to see her about (coping skills for his anxiety disorder). 

(She ISN'T married, and having seen her card, I don't recall seeing any credentials in marriage and family therapy. She does have specialized training in the latest treatments for certain kinds of anxiety disorders.)

Should I keep my mouth shut? That's more 180-ish. Or should I say something to him before he goes and gets MORE confused by this therapist tomorrow?


----------



## margrace

B1 said:


> Yes, I am here now and thank you Bfree,HG, tcs and wazza. It has been a rough day or two but nothing that EI and I can't handle. She has been wonderful, answering my questions, and just being there hearing me out and listening, and being understanding and compassionate.
> 
> It's different now, bad times I know are just that..bad times, it's not forever and it's not the end, it's just part of this journey. We are so good at communicating now, talking things out and working together.
> We got this.


hi B1 and EI:

i was feeling for both of you as i read about your rough day yesterday. we say it so often but it doesn't stop being true: it is so hard getting past this. 

sometimes it amazes me that it can all be SO CLEAR in my head and yet FEEL so painful and tumultuous at the same time. i actually feel angry at it, like, okay, i get it by now so ENOUGH already! 

a loving, insightful couple like you two knows that a rough day will pop up now and then, and that it doesn't represent anything but a rough day. still, when you are in it, it hurts to have some of those stitches ripped open


----------



## SomedayDig

B1...having been through the 1 year post Dday date, I feel for you brother. We know it's coming. We know that date is looming on our calendar 365 days away, 173 days away and 8 days away. Our subconscious is always aware which is why we get triggered by stuff at the most inopportune moment.

I admit that I dug into my bottle for a few days a little too deep. 

Regret stood vigil. She knew. It killed her to watch me go through that and she would sit next to me and just put her hand on my leg. Most of the times not saying a word. Other times just saying "I love you, Dig...I'm right here".

The culmination of all the hard work and heavy lifting that she had done was gone from my mind those few days.

Slowly, my memory came back to me and I saw her sitting on the floor looking up at me telling me how sorry she is and how horrible she felt. How she wished she could take it all back and that if she apologized a hundred times a day for the rest of her life, that it wouldn't be enough.

It wasn't long after my experience, that it was MY turn for grace. It just happened one day out of the blue. Oddly enough, it was a Sunday. I cried a few tears. Just a few. I had cried them all for over a year at that point.

And...

I let it go.


----------



## SomedayDig

Hopefulgirl...as I've said on many threads in many posts - an IC is there for ONE reason: their client.

Your marriage takes the back seat in regards to her treating your husband. Everything that he talks about, she is looking for a way to make HIM feel better. Not you.

IMO, successful IC sessions come when the wayward spouse makes it known fully their intentions for seeking counseling. It's about trying to figure out what made them take that road down Infidelity Drive and how the hell to make a U-turn and find Reconciliation Way. 

Let me be clear about this...his confusion isn't coming from his IC alone. It's coming from him because it may be that he hasn't fully exposed to her the exact reason he's there. I would have a simple and frank conversation with him and let him know that the IC is taking her cues from him. What he brings to the table is what she's got to work with - much like TAM...we can only respond to the words written in a post.

Trust me, if a wayward goes to IC and doesn't talk about their reasons why and how they got involved in an affair, reconciliation is just not gonna happen.


----------



## happyman64

SomedayDig said:


> And...
> 
> I let it go.




It is very powerful when you can do this SD. It is empowering you to move forward in life and in your marriage.

It is also one of the hardest things to be able to do for some people.

To forgive a spouse. To forgive yourself. And to be strong enough, confident enough to know that above all else you still love that former wayward spouse and have that desire to be married to them.

You get it SD. And B1 and Rookie get it to. So do your spouses.

I think that is awesome......

Hm64


----------



## SomedayDig

I appreciate that HM64 (and I'm sure my compadres do, too).

You were one of the very first to welcome me in "My Side of the Story". You have always been supportive of Regret and me, and I'll always be thankful to read your kind words in the beginning, middle and continuation of our journey.


----------



## LanieB

I hope no one minds if I pop in here for a bit! I'm always lurking here, reading this thread, and I've learned a lot. Mostly, I've learned that my WH and I are NOT in R. 

I just wanted to tell EI - - I'm sorry you and B1 are still going through this hard time. However, it's only hard (and emotional) because B1 LOVES YOU. I discovered my husband's affair 8-9 months ago. For about 6 months, I cried my eyes out over everything. Now - I don't cry anymore. Ever. Know why? Because I DO NOT LOVE HIM ANYMORE. I'm merely biding my time in a holding pattern until I'm ready to make a move.

I'm sure you already know all this stuff -  - but although it isn't necessarily enjoyable to go through this, your (new) marriage is healing, and healing hurts. The real problem would be if it no longer hurt at all.

Hang in there!


----------



## margrace

hopefulgirl said:


> Help, please! Seeking some advice.
> 
> WS has been very nice to me....There has been no relationship talk other than his text to me a couple days ago (he stayed home sick, I was at work): "Sorry I'm such a big poop head. I'm so confused." (I did reply "I still love you")
> 
> Anyway, I think a lot of his confusion comes from the messages he's getting from his IC. ...I'm tempted to suggest that he ask his therapist to restrict her work with him to the problem she specializes in, which is what he originally came to see her about (coping skills for his anxiety disorder).
> 
> Should I keep my mouth shut? That's more 180-ish. Or should I say something to him before he goes and gets MORE confused by this therapist tomorrow?


here's my 2 cents, hg. i would not say these things to him about his IC -- _but not because it isn't 180ish._ i think the 180 is a lifesaver in the way that it guides us toward taking care of ourselves and getting clear and strong -- that is what _*you* _are doing and i am glad that it is working for you! at the same time, for me, it clouds the real issues when 180 takes on the flavor of a strategic plan for winning a chess game  so i wouldn't want you to take my comments in those terms.

i would not say these things about his IC because we just don't ever know what's happening in his (or anyone's) IC. is he saying glass-half-empty things to her? i'm sure he is. i said those things to my IC as well. and my IC did indeed focus on me, and my feelings, and the alternatives that i needed to consider for _me_.

i would maybe say to WH, oh, seems like your IC has been helpful for you lately -- what kinds of things have you two been working on? and then i would listen with as much openness as possible, understanding that this means being open to learning (directly or indirectly) that _it is not in his heart to repair the marriage_. i would not critique what they are or are not addressing. i would simply repeat that i am happy if it's helpful, _and i would mean that._ 

at the same time, what i would do (and what i did) is ask him to come back to MC, because our relationship needs a helpful counselor, too  my fWH and i had started but then stopped after only a couple of sessions during which he was not engaged at all. and yes, he was angry like yours! i framed it the way that i mentioned to you earlier, and he said yes, that he would try it again.

btw, i asked my fWH to read through those earlier posts of yours, because they reminded me of him not so long ago. he remembered that anger, and he said that, looking back, it had nothing really to do with me -- it was anger at himself, at his predicament, at his actions, at having it all exposed, at having to confront it. his sense is that your H is there too -- he's mortified and angry at himself (as well he should be) and it's just boiling out in all directions.

my H said that the turning point was when he realized that (in his words) he could not have done anything worse, that the As were entirely his fault, and that he is "a complete *sshole." once he _really_ realized that, the anger that had been (mis)directed at me entirely stopped, and he was truly ready to work on himself and the marriage. before that, he was just going through the motions.

he said that a moment that he remembers in this process was once when i blew up and said some very pointed and raw things to him  i asked him, so do you think it would have helped if i had done that sooner? he said "no, i wasn't ready to hear it... some people can hear it right away, but i couldn't."

finally, on a hopeful R note, he wanted me to say to the thread that he has spent his whole life up until now being a non-introspective man with a lot of anger who did not know how to talk about feelings and did NOT want to. "if i can get to this point, anyone can," he said


----------



## margrace

SomedayDig said:


> B1...having been through the 1 year post Dday date, I feel for you brother. We know it's coming. We know that date is looming on our calendar 365 days away, 173 days away and 8 days away. Our subconscious is always aware which is why we get triggered by stuff at the most inopportune moment.
> 
> I admit that I dug into my bottle for a few days a little too deep.
> 
> Regret stood vigil. She knew. It killed her to watch me go through that and she would sit next to me and just put her hand on my leg. Most of the times not saying a word. Other times just saying "I love you, Dig...I'm right here".
> 
> The culmination of all the hard work and heavy lifting that she had done was gone from my mind those few days.
> 
> Slowly, my memory came back to me and I saw her sitting on the floor looking up at me telling me how sorry she is and how horrible she felt. How she wished she could take it all back and that if she apologized a hundred times a day for the rest of her life, that it wouldn't be enough.
> 
> It wasn't long after my experience, that it was MY turn for grace. It just happened one day out of the blue. Oddly enough, it was a Sunday. I cried a few tears. Just a few. I had cried them all for over a year at that point.
> 
> And...
> 
> I let it go.


oh, thank you for this


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



hopefulgirl said:


> Help, please! Seeking some advice.
> 
> WS has been very nice to me. Expressing extra appreciation for meals cooked, texting silly stuff to me from work, cheering when my favorite couple moved on to the finals in Dancing With the Stars - things like that. He has kissed me on the cheek too.
> 
> So the 180 appears to be working.
> 
> There has been no relationship talk other than his text to me a couple days ago (he stayed home sick, I was at work): "Sorry I'm such a big poop head. I'm so confused." (I did reply "I still love you")
> 
> Anyway, I think a lot of his confusion comes from the messages he's getting from his IC. He goes again tomorrow. I think one reason he has been so silent about what goes on there (or even WHEN he goes there - for awhile, they didn't have a regular day and time so I wasn't even sure when he went!) was because there were so many glass half empty things said about me and about the marriage.
> 
> On the one hand, I feel like I shouldn't say anything negative about his IC - that might only make him defend the counselor (he's a knight in shining armor type, and she IS female). On the other hand, bfree has pointed out that it's very possible that she could be filling his head with codependency notions that are marriage-killers.
> 
> I also came across this when I was looking on a website for names of marriage-friendly therapists:
> 
> _Individual therapy may undermine more marriages than even poor couples therapy. Because relationship problems are the main problem people bring to individual therapists, individual therapists are treating marriages whether or not they realize it. Unless the therapist has values that support marriage and is careful not to turn the non-present partner into a villain, individual therapy can undermine a marriage. Every experienced marriage therapist has heard these stories: a spouse goes into individual therapy, receives support for a one-sided view of the marriage problems, and becomes increasingly pessimistic about the marriage. The therapist then questions why the person stays in an obviously bad marriage. The other spouse is clueless that the marriage is unraveling in therapy, and is not informed until it’s too late. These therapists do not intend harm, but often their orientation is to the personal happiness of their individual client who is distressed in a marriage, without enough regard for the welfare of the other spouse and the children—and for the lifelong commitment that the client once made to the marriage for "better and worse." _
> 
> I think this is probably what has been going on. I'm tempted to read this to him and suggest that his "confusion" could possibly be due to the above, and also suggest that he ask his therapist to restrict her work with him to the problem she specializes in, which is what he originally came to see her about (coping skills for his anxiety disorder).
> 
> (She ISN'T married, and having seen her card, I don't recall seeing any credentials in marriage and family therapy. She does have specialized training in the latest treatments for certain kinds of anxiety disorders.)
> 
> Should I keep my mouth shut? That's more 180-ish. Or should I say something to him before he goes and gets MORE confused by this therapist tomorrow?


I think the best thing you can do right now is to continue implementing your 180 and to look for a very experienced MC that specializes in infidelity. If he starts to get a different message from a MC than what he is receiving in his IC sessions I would expect that his sessions will evolve. Counselors do not like to contradict each other so his counselor will most likely temper her suggestions to more marriage friendly advice. This way you don't come off as looking like the bad guy.


----------



## russell28

happyman64 said:


> It is very powerful when you can do this SD. It is empowering you to move forward in life and in your marriage.
> 
> It is also one of the hardest things to be able to do for some people.
> 
> To forgive a spouse. To forgive yourself. And to be strong enough, confident enough to know that above all else you still love that former wayward spouse and have that desire to be married to them.
> 
> You get it SD. And B1 and Rookie get it to. So do your spouses.
> 
> I think that is awesome......
> 
> Hm64


They are my inspiration.. they showed me that I can remain strong and confident, and be intelligent about the situation and not react out of only anger and emotion. 

I got a birthday card from my wife today that was wonderful... Instead of thinking about the last x birthdays, and how my cards weren't romantic, and said 'love ya' instead of something warm... I thought about how lucky I am that this year, I have her all to myself.. and that she's with me right now. At this moment... I'm not a poor soul, I'm a lucky man...


----------



## SomedayDig

Don't forget, brother...SHE is lucky, too


----------



## B1

It's a slightly better day today. I do have to admit though I am NOT liking May that much. I want it to be over, Oh...and while I am at it, I want jeeps without tops to all go away too!


----------



## SomedayDig

I'll contact the IRS immediately B1 and ask that they look into Jeep. I can do this cuz I'm a Democrap.


Ooops...I mean, Democrat. Which - when I get to Florida that will be changed to Independant. 



Oh...and I'm glad today's a better day for ya, hoss. As for May ~ well, it's a pretty f'ng wishy washy month anyways. Doesn't know whether to be warm or cold. Maybe it doesn't deserve a bunch of love right now.


----------



## russell28

SomedayDig said:


> Don't forget, brother...SHE is lucky, too


She sure is.. and she knows it. 

B1.. See it as a challenge to not let things like a Jeep get to you, I know it's hard... I found my wife and xOM at a dunkin donuts, there's one of those on every corner where I live. First couple days I let them trigger me.. now when I think Dunkin, I think that I want to get a coffee for myself and drink it. I'll go there with my wife and sit and have coffee.. Don't let him have the power over your mind and memories.. Jeeps are cool, some people who drive them are doochebaggs, but don't blame the Jeep. If I hate coffee, my anger is misdirected... 

Just had a thought.. rent a Jeep, take it on the beach (bring rope and an air compressor).... take that thing hard through the dunes.


----------



## hopefulgirl

*Dig*, he started IC prior to the A. The reason was his anxiety disorder, and that's the therapist's specialty. Since D-Day, 3 and a half months ago, he has brought up the infidelity, but my sense is that he started where a lot of waywards start (because he was telling me these things in the early days after D-Day): with a re-write of our marital history that made it sound like he was far more miserable than he ever let on to ME. 

Late last summer he was in an area experiencing record high temps on one of his business trips, one of the few that he drove his car to. I get Consumer Reports things in my email, one of which I passed along to him about tire blowouts in the heat, suggesting you check tire pressure because it can change in hot weather. He replied "Hello Love" and said yes he was checking daily. Can't you tell he was miserable from the salutation? THAT night at midnight, he texted 2 different women, one of which became the OW (that was the start of the EA part of the A).

I don't think the counselor is a bad person, and she can only work with what she's told. But I think she's working outside of her specialty, and perhaps should be more careful when she's getting only one side of a marriage problem, and the wayward's slanted story to boot.

*bfree*, I went to the National Registry of Marriage Friendly Therapists to find someone. It was founded after a famous marriage therapist gave a talk about how therapy can be hazardous to your marriage. They have to be experienced and they subsribe to a set of values - they are not "neutral" when it comes to marriage, as a surprisingly high percentage of therapists are. I found 3 therapists fairly close by, but based on your recommendation, I've narrowed it down to the one who specifically mentions experience with infidelity in his bio.

*margrace*, thank you for sharing your wisdom AND your husband's insight! I think he's able to see into my WS' heart and mind better than anyone. I think he has described _exactly_ where my WS is at right now. He has told me that he doesn't like to talk about the A because it IS so unpleasant for him to remember it. He IS ashamed. I never mean to "rub his nose in it" but I still have questions about dates and times and most times he just can't face it without becoming upset with me. 

The cell phone logs just threw him into a tizzy - he wanted me to destroy them right away, the first time I showed them to him. I think the "evidence" of all those texts to the same number (the sexting period) was probably repugnant to him, and he wanted it gone. 

But I need to talk about it - I still have questions. I can't heal unless I get a chance to get this out. And I JUST figured out 2 days ago that the second number at midnight WASN'T another phone belonging to the OW, so I have questions about who SHE was to him (someone in his past, apparently - even if nothing else ever came of it, he DID text her at midnight, which is inappropriate).

Anyway, thanks for your caring and great guidance re how to approach him on this. I will be suggesting that our relationship needs a helpful counselor, and I won't say anything remotely negative about his IC! I'm not ready to ask him about his IC, though - he's said he "doesn't have to tell me anything about it" so it might set him off. Better to go positive and forward, which I can be in reference to OUR MC.

Thanks everyone for all the GREAT input!!  You guys are wonderful.


----------



## russell28

hopefulgirl said:


> *Dig*, he started IC prior to the A. The reason was his anxiety disorder, and that's the therapist's specialty. Since D-Day, 3 and a half months ago, he has brought up the infidelity, but my sense is that he started where a lot of waywards start (because he was telling me these things in the early days after D-Day): with a re-write of our marital history that made it sound like he was far more miserable than he ever let on to ME.
> 
> Late last summer he was in an area experiencing record high temps on one of his business trips, one of the few that he drove his car to. I get Consumer Reports things in my email, one of which I passed along to him about tire blowouts in the heat, suggesting you check tire pressure because it can change in hot weather. He replied "Hello Love" and said yes he was checking daily. Can't you tell he was miserable from the salutation? THAT night at midnight, he texted 2 different women, one of which became the OW (that was the start of the EA part of the A).
> 
> I don't think the counselor is a bad person, and she can only work with what she's told. But I think she's working outside of her specialty, and perhaps should be more careful when she's getting only one side of a marriage problem, and the wayward's slanted story to boot.
> 
> *bfree*, I went to the National Registry of Marriage Friendly Therapists to find someone. It was founded after a famous marriage therapist gave a talk about how therapy can be hazardous to your marriage. They have to be experienced and they subsribe to a set of values - they are not "neutral" when it comes to marriage, as a surprisingly high percentage of therapists are. I found 3 therapists fairly close by, but based on your recommendation, I've narrowed it down to the one who specifically mentions experience with infidelity in his bio.
> 
> *margrace*, thank you for sharing your wisdom AND your husband's insight! I think he's able to see into my WS' heart and mind better than anyone. I think he has described _exactly_ where my WS is at right now. He has told me that he doesn't like to talk about the A because it IS so unpleasant for him to remember it. He IS ashamed. I never mean to "rub his nose in it" but I still have questions about dates and times and most times he just can't face it without becoming upset with me.
> 
> The cell phone logs just threw him into a tizzy - he wanted me to destroy them right away, the first time I showed them to him. I think the "evidence" of all those texts to the same number (the sexting period) was probably repugnant to him, and he wanted it gone.
> 
> But I need to talk about it - I still have questions. I can't heal unless I get a chance to get this out. And I JUST figured out 2 days ago that the second number at midnight WASN'T another phone belonging to the OW, so I have questions about who SHE was to him (someone in his past, apparently - even if nothing else ever came of it, he DID text her at midnight, which is inappropriate).
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your caring and great guidance re how to approach him on this. I will be suggesting that our relationship needs a helpful counselor, and I won't say anything remotely negative about his IC! I'm not ready to ask him about his IC, though - he's said he "doesn't have to tell me anything about it" so it might set him off. Better to go positive and forward, which I can be in reference to OUR MC.
> 
> Thanks everyone for all the GREAT input!!  You guys are wonderful.


I wish you both the best.

My wife and I are both going to the same woman for MC and IC, we've been to three MC sessions with her so far in about a month and then will start IC to go along with MC, all with her. She's been great so far at keeping me positive and helping me cope.. I thought there was an advantage to one person hearing both sides, then hearing each individual, so they can understand where each person is/was in the relationship. 

I was planning on shopping around until I found a good one, but so far this one is sharp and gets right to it.. She knows her stuff, and all I know is that I feel tons better after talking to her.. and that's important to me right now, anything that makes me feel better.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Can we do a new name/face association for the Jeeps? I drive one and love it. Maybe you can picture me and H driving around off road in the desert each time you see one. I'll even send you a picture of our goofy selves.


----------



## SomedayDig

Yes! Goofy pics rock!!

I will go to the Jeep dealer here and have Regret get shots of me stabbing their tires out with my K-bar.

wait. that's not goofy...that's dumb!!


----------



## TCSRedhead

LOL Dig - don't get arrested for cryin' out loud! Well, at least not without a whole crowd of us there to egg you on. 

I'll find some and post them up for fun later today.


----------



## SomedayDig

Meh...I don't know Red...I just might get arrested for B1 and a few others around this joint.

Plus the pics of me in silver bracelets would be awesome in Social!!!

:rofl:


----------



## russell28

At least roll it over before you pop the tires.. what fun is a Jeep if you don't flip it?


----------



## SomedayDig

A good point, Russell.


----------



## TCSRedhead

I am sincerely hoping the Jeep humor is not bugging anyone. If it is, just ping me and we'll knock it off. Nothing but love for you folks.


----------



## hopefulgirl

You KNOW there's been healing when you can laugh at the triggers, even while they still have some punch.

:smthumbup:


----------



## SomedayDig

Same with the getting arrested. I wouldn't wanna offend any cops.


Well. I don't really mean that, but just don't want to upset anyone.

Hey ~ B1...this is all for you brother!!! Red's gonna make it funny, Russell's gonna go Jeep tipping...which, you're in Kentucky so it's like cow tipping...and I'm gonna get arrested for you.

Damn. We must really care


----------



## EI

Have I told you guys, lately, how much I love you?  It's so good just to be able to laugh in the middle of the afternoon. The thought of seeing you guys "Jeep tipping" just to make my Honey feel better warms my heart!!! 

Dig, all references to the Social Spot must be kept discreet!  I let my lighter, looser, crazier EI out over there and I'm not sure that _everyone_ is ready to see that side of EI!  Now, you, Red and Lanie fit right in with that crowd...... and poor B1, well, he has to live with me......... (I guess he doesn't have to, but he does ) so he's kinda used to it (me.)

So, TCSRedhed, no we are not offended with the "jeep talk," I think it's hilarious.  But, I will be waiting to see pictures of you, C & B, and the little guy in your jeep!


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Same with the getting arrested. I wouldn't wanna offend any cops.
> 
> 
> Well. I don't really mean that, but just don't want to upset anyone.
> 
> Hey ~ B1...this is all for you brother!!! Red's gonna make it funny, Russell's gonna go Jeep tipping...which, you're in Kentucky so it's like cow tipping...and I'm gonna get arrested for you.
> 
> Damn. We must really care


You guys rock........ Who knew we'd make "the best friends, ever" on the CWI forum!!! :scratchhead:


----------



## TCSRedhead

I threw up some older ones on my profile page - we haven't been offroading in a while but will send you dorky/goofy ones soon, now that I have a reason to do so!


----------



## EI

hopefulgirl said:


> You KNOW there's been healing when you can laugh at the triggers, even while they still have some punch.
> 
> :smthumbup:


Yes Ma'am!  And, laughing feels so much better than crying!


----------



## EI

TCSRedhead said:


> I threw up some older ones on my profile page - we haven't been offroading in a while but will send you dorky/goofy ones soon, now that I have a reason to do so!


Eh, the Jeep's okay,......  But, that sweet little baby boy of yours is a dream........ :smthumbup:


----------



## mintypeas

hello to everyone. i have been lurking for a while and have made a couple of threads but they didnt go well. but today me and my wh have been reading this thread from the beginning( we are on page 40 so long way to go!!) but i wanted to let you know that it has helped us alot to start rebuilding we are a month after Dday and we are trying to r and you are helping us so much and i felt i had to thank you all so much xxx


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## TCSRedhead

Yeah - I can't get enough of him. It's a whole new world.


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## EI

russell28 said:


> At least roll it over before you pop the tires.. what fun is a Jeep if you don't flip it?


Of course, that's the only way to go!  LOL


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Yes! Goofy pics rock!!
> 
> I will go to the Jeep dealer here and have Regret get shots of me stabbing their tires out with my K-bar.
> 
> ...........


Thanks Dig, only a real friend would do that for ya! :smthumbup:


----------



## SomedayDig

mintypeas said:


> hello to everyone. i have been lurking for a while and have made a couple of threads but they didnt go well. but today me and my wh have been reading this thread from the beginning( we are on page 40 so long way to go!!) but i wanted to let you know that it has helped us alot to start rebuilding we are a month after Dday and we are trying to r and you are helping us so much and i felt i had to thank you all so much xxx


Wow, you have a lot more to read!!  If anything, reading this thread with your spouse guarantees quality time sitting next to each other. I hear page 50 and 398 are thrilling!


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## mintypeas

we look forward to reading those pages!! you are all helping us understand each other alot more and to see where the work needs to be done and that we are in for a long road ahead of us but we see your stories and they are inspirational they really are xx


----------



## EI

mintypeas said:


> hello to everyone. i have been lurking for a while and have made a couple of threads but they didnt go well. but today me and my wh have been reading this thread from the beginning( we are on page 40 so long way to go!!) but i wanted to let you know that it has helped us alot to start rebuilding we are a month after Dday and we are trying to r and you are helping us so much and i felt i had to thank you all so much xxx


Hey, just a few more pages to go! 

This truly is an awesome thread! And, no, I'm not sayin' that because I'm sleeping with the OP!  I'm married to him, too! 

As wonderful as my hubby truly is, he isn't the reason that this thread is the awesome thread that it is...... Well, he might have had a _little something_ to do with it.  The real reason for its success is that it has become a collaborative effort on the part of BS's and WS's to share an open, honest and respectful dialogue with one another, giving each of us an opportunity to learn things that we might not have had, otherwise. For me, personally, it has been so much more beneficial than even our IC and MC.

I believe like-minded people are drawn together. I think that most of "us" would agree that, at the end of the day, we are all much more alike than we are different. WS's, at least those posting here, aren't the Devil incarnate, and none of the BS's, posting here, are victims...... they are survivors..... :smthumbup:

Welcome to the "R" thread. I think it's a great sign that you and your WH are reading through it together.......


----------



## CantSitStill

Hi Mintypeas, welcome to the R thread, you got me going back now and reading older posts on here. Wow, it's really interesting how far we've come. I hope you find the inspiration that Calvin and I have from this thread 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mintypeas

it was mainly yours and b1 story that kept us reading as we saw so many similiar things to how we are both reacting in your early days also my wh wanted to read how the ws were helping their bs and how they are feeling as he does not know where to start but we have opened up alot more to day through reading this thread and i feel we are having a good day today. xxx


----------



## CantSitStill

I have to admit, it feels good to know our story has and is helping others. It's been rough but then again writing things down here has helped, also it helped me not to feel alone. We have our own thread also but it is super duper long lol..a lot of reading. I'll let you get through this one...;plenty to read here...some arguements with badblood I remember. A lot of different opinions and it's good because it helps us see how BS' feel and for people to see what WS' also go through. We are all a TAMily here 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Dang, that reminds me...what is going on with Bobka?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mintypeas

yes we noticed the arguments!! lol xx i just wanted you to all know that your journeys are helping newbies like us and i am sure many more that stay quiet. we will keep reading and yes i have been quite tearful through this as i felt so alone but i dont so much now xx


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all! Just a quick welcome to mintypeas, and thanks to all who've been following Matt's thread lately. I'm so grateful for the opinions and support. It's the most amazing thing in the world for me to have read his thoughts, his statement that we are officially in R, and the way he has defended my feelings regarding the letter. 

It's so weird, because I've had a NC plan in my head since December, but just recently laid it out in writing. And the funny thing is, I felt "safe". I remember working on it and thinking I was glad to do it, but that I probably would never have to use it, that if one of them was going to break NC, it would have happened already. And then, bang, there it was in my mailbox. It's so mixed up. I didn't want either of us to face that stress and reminder of all that's happened, but at the same time, I'm grateful for a chance to finally have a concrete action to back up the changes I have been making and to show to Matt that directly involves my past poor choices. He's really been wonderful to me this week, and I will never forget these days.

After I left town Monday night, Matt and I were texting and he said for the first time in a long time, he thought of me first when there was a project he wanted to share with someone. That is HUGE to me. Thank you to everyone who has helped us both so far, I know we're just beginning this journey, but at the same time it seems that we really have come so far in the last six months. We are on the cusp of "affair season" - the time last year where I crossed over into a PA and a knowing EA. I know rough times are ahead, but I have hope. Thank you for sharing yours with me when I need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> It's a slightly better day today. I do have to admit though I am NOT liking May that much. I want it to be over, Oh...and while I am at it, I want jeeps without tops to all go away too!


I don't know what all the fuss is about Jeeps..... they don't mean a thing to me.... Did you know that when I was a teenager that I dated this cute skinny guy with long hair. He drove a 1977 Black Trans Am. We had some pretty good times in that car. ..... On the road and off the road...... I say off road because a lot of times when we were flying around the curve and down that hill on Hot Rod Haven, I know that all 4 wheels were off the ground.  You remember? 

The guy I married... 29 years ago, well, he doesn't have any hair, at all. Have I told you how sexy I think a bald guy is?  He's not skinny...... He's built like "The Rock." He drives a very nice, new Black Ford Fusion...... and, most of all....... He stole my heart.... <3 More than once......... 

Like I said, I don't know what all the fuss is about Jeeps!  I don't even know anyone who drives one......


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow EI...I went back and read what you said to me when I lost my job. Made me tear up a bit. What would I do without a friend like you? I still have re-occuring nightmares that I'm working there again 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Wow EI...I went back and read what you said to me when I lost my job. Made me tear up a bit. What would I do without a friend like you? I still have re-occuring nightmares that I'm working there again
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel the same about you.......you and Calvin were my first real example of "hope" on TAM. I've always told B1 that with just a little hope, I can move mountains..... In those early days on TAM we weren't experiencing much of that..... It's really kind of sad if you think about it.

If only more people could grasp the concept of meeting people where they are and where they're hoping to go.... not where you think they should be right at this very moment. The journey of a thousand miles begins with just one step.


----------



## jh52

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Hello all! Just a quick welcome to mintypeas, and thanks to all who've been following Matt's thread lately. I'm so grateful for the opinions and support. It's the most amazing thing in the world for me to have read his thoughts, his statement that we are officially in R, and the way he has defended my feelings regarding the letter.
> 
> It's so weird, because I've had a NC plan in my head since December, but just recently laid it out in writing. And the funny thing is, I felt "safe". I remember working on it and thinking I was glad to do it, but that I probably would never have to use it, that if one of them was going to break NC, it would have happened already. And then, bang, there it was in my mailbox. It's so mixed up. I didn't want either of us to face that stress and reminder of all that's happened, but at the same time, I'm grateful for a chance to finally have a concrete action to back up the changes I have been making and to show to Matt that directly involves my past poor choices. He's really been wonderful to me this week, and I will never forget these days.
> 
> After I left town Monday night, Matt and I were texting and he said for the first time in a long time, he thought of me first when there was a project he wanted to share with someone. That is HUGE to me. Thank you to everyone who has helped us both so far, I know we're just beginning this journey, but at the same time it seems that we really have come so far in the last six months. We are on the cusp of "affair season" - the time last year where I crossed over into a PA and a knowing EA. I know rough times are ahead, but I have hope. Thank you for sharing yours with me when I need it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Take things hour by hour, day by day. Try not to look back -- just look forward -- though sometimes easier said then done.


----------



## calvin

Had the toothless POS following me on the way home from work today.
I stopped and got a six pack,saw a white work truck,didn't think too much of it since I couldn't see the logo on the side.
Stopped by a buddies for a few,seen another white work truck, I left.
I got a side view of the truck,it was him.
He followed me for awhile til we got a stop light.
It was him.I told him to follow me home,showed him my crow bar from the back seat of my truck,told him I REALLY want your dentures on my shelf.
He turned and gunned the work truck.
He knows my routine after work.
No trigger,that surprizes me.I didn't chase him like before.
I think he is trying to intimidate me,that won't work.
I have seen that truck in my nieghborhood recently but could not tell who was driving.
Should I make contact with him again???
He has threatend to come here before,if the ex- con does he will die here as well.
Not going to let this ruin our evening.
I don't like the idea of being shadowed by him.
Something wrong with him,I'm not afraid of him.
You tell me you going to come over and rape my wife,I will introduce him to a varitey of tools I have in my garage.
I will fvck him up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Or my 9mm,4-10,the twelve gauge,whatever he likes.
Why CSS?......why????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BjornFree

Get a restraining order against him and next time he approaches beat the living **** out of him, keep a camera handy to record the violation.


----------



## calvin

Fighting off the urg to tell her to go be with him,she wanted him,not me.
Want the bad boy twice convicted broke ass felon,all yours,good luck with that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Who the hell needs dentures at 40 years old??
Was it prison?Someone else knock them out,the drugs he did?
Cops can't do crap until he does something,been to them.
How could my wife tell him she loved him and try to kick me out of the house?
For him??????
Trigger coming,better chill out here.....ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

No do not call him! Will it ever stop?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I am trying hard to have a good day, back to cooking dinner. I'm real tired of this crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Don't engage him. Document and file for a restraining order.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

And the fight starts....I have already asked her what the fvck she saw in the loser.
She has answered enough according to her.
Fine,I quiet as a church mouse.
I didn't go looking for this sh!t,I wanted MC a few years agoshe wouldn't do it.
F it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Did I forsee all this happening? No. I made a bad choice 15 months ago. Now I am moving on, am being a better wife, mother and person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

BjornFree said:


> Get a restraining order against him and next time he approaches beat the living **** out of him, keep a camera handy to record the violation.


Hard too get,he has ran before,even after calling me to set up the fight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Don't give him that power. Calvin, you do know the answer to that question. She has answered it for you. Don't let his reappearance change your path. CSS didn't change today. She didn't do anything new. Kick OM to the curb and enjoy what's yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Doobie break
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Don't lay a finger on him, restraining order and camera or not. He is not worth any possible legal issues. Shut him down, erase him. He's trying to provoke you and you are feeding it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Calvin, CSS - can you document this harassment and file a restraining order?


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes we can if Calvin agrees not to get in contact with him anymore. He wants to take it in his own hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Gonna do what Louis would.
Louis would not be rattled by this but he would watch his back.
The ex-felon lost,I won.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

&%$###[email protected]@@@+++&%$
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Remember that Calvin. If he can get you to react - he wins. Shut him down - get a restraining order and force that f'er out of your life. He doesn't deserve a second of thought, effort or emotion.


----------



## calvin

TCSRedhead said:


> Remember that Calvin. If he can get you to react - he wins. Shut him down - get a restraining order and force that f'er out of your life. He doesn't deserve a second of thought, effort or emotion.


No I won't.
I win.
We just had a good talk and hugs,she helps fight this crap off.
I'm not a little bit in this with CSS,I'm all in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> No I won't.
> I win.
> We just had a good talk and hugs,she helps fight this crap off.
> I'm not a little bit in this with CSS,I'm all in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NICE!! :smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## B1

Thanks for the pic tcs that made me smile and I will use it. Now when I think of a jeep I am seeing a guy sticking his tongue out and having fun. I'll take it 

Dig and russell now don't go get yourself arrested on my account. Regret would be pretty upset at me if she had to bail you two out for jeep tipping. 

Thanks all for the jeep jokes it really did bring a smile to my face.


----------



## CantSitStill

We had a very nice walk 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> We had a very nice walk
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very nice walk,more talk.Me and the dumb Beagle had a good talk.
I don't think me and the dog understand eachother yet but we are getting there.
Everything is fine,I got the girl,he ran,I win.
He's dead too me.
Although I'd like to help.
Not derailed,we are on track.I love my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Because of Calvin and because my kids wrote me letters on Mother's Day about how imortant I am to them. I will not consider suicide again. I was wrong thinking they would all be better off without me financially. That was not a good plan. My plan is to become a stronger person and to take care of myself, so that I can continue to take care of my family. I will get that job in God's timing so that Calvin doesn't have to work so darn much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

mintypeas said:


> yes we noticed the arguments!! lol xx i just wanted you to all know that your journeys are helping newbies like us and i am sure many more that stay quiet. we will keep reading and yes i have been quite tearful through this as i felt so alone but i dont so much now xx


You definitely won't feel alone on your journey here. There are plenty like me who understand your pain, and understand your desire to work things out. It's a rocky, twisty road for sure but it, to me, is a worthwhile one. 

We are thriving in the midst of EI's A and my years of neglecting her. We have learned to communicate, to talk, to cry, to get angry and argue constructively. We hug more, kiss more, hold each other longer, touch base far more throughout the day. We are keenly aware of the others feelings. We can openly say what's bothering us, we don't hold things in anymore, nothing festers for long with us. We both know how critical it is to not take each other for granted. 

EI is sorry and I am sorry, yes, for us our journey meant we both had fixing to do, we both had amends to make. True R is not about calling the ws names, putting them down and punishing them. It takes far more work than that. It takes two mature adults wanting the same thing, striving for the same thing, a happy healthy loving marriage. 

This thread and those that post here, to us, have been a Godsend. 
I honestly don't think we would be as far along as we are now without this thread and a few others.

As CSS put it we are a TAMily here.


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> You definitely won't feel alone on your journey here. There are plenty like me who understand your pain, and understand your desire to work things out. It's a rocky, twisty road for sure but it, to me, is a worthwhile one.
> 
> We are thriving in the midst of EI's A and my years of neglect. We have learned to communicate, to talk, to cry, to get angry and argue constructively. We hug more, kiss more, hold each other longer, touch base far more throughout the day. We are keenly aware of the others feelings. We can openly say what's bothering us, we don't hold things in anymore, nothing festers for long with us. We both know how critical it is to not take each other for granted.
> 
> EI is sorry and I am sorry, yes, for us our journey meant we both had fixing to do, we both had amends to make. True R is not about calling the ws names, putting them down and punishing them. It takes far more work than that. It takes two mature adults wanting the same thing, striving for the same thing, a happy healthy loving marriage.
> 
> This thread and those that post here, to us, have been a Godsend.
> I honestly don't think we would be as far along as we are now without this thread and a few others.
> 
> As CSS put it we are a TAMily here.


Very good B1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> *We have learned to communicate*, to *talk*, to *cry*, to *get angry* and *argue* constructively....... *We are keenly aware of the others feelings. We can openly say what's bothering us, we don't hold things in anymore*, nothing festers for long with us.


_Really, B1_.... :scratchhead:  

_Seriously_,........ Do you really think that *ANYONE* who has read more than, ooooooh, say, 1 or 2 of my posts would think that "*I*" _EVER_ had any trouble communicating or emoting???  


*Baaaaaabe*, _you_ learned all that stuff.... :smthumbup: I was doing it all along..... You just weren't listening! 



*P.S. I LOOOOOOOVE YOU, B1!!!!*


----------



## CantSitStill

Honey I am here to help with those tears, let me in so I can give you my shoulder to cry on. I want and need you to break down the walls. I love you Calvin and want to be your soft place to go to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Ooops, I think he deleted his post...sigh. I honestly don't remember telling him it's unmanly tnt cry..that is cruel and mean. So unlike me...uggg. &#&@@@@%$##
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Calvin for what is worth I have cried a lot this week. EI has held me in her arms while I did it, a couple times I was alone in my car. It's been a tough several days. I may feel wounded, I may feel weakened at times but I do not feel less manly. I am not less manly for letting the hurt come forth and pour out of me. It, to me, is healing. Yes it represents tremendous pain but it also represents overcoming that pain. It's not a sign of weakness and giving up, it's a sign that I am fighting and not giving up.


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> Calvin for what is worth I have cried a lot this week. EI has held me in her arms while I did it, a couple times I was alone in my car. It's been a tough several days. I may feel wounded, I may feel weakened at times but I do not feel less manly. I am not less manly for letting the hurt come forth and pour out of me. It, to me, is healing. Yes it represents tremendous pain but it also represents overcoming that pain. It's not a sign of weakness and giving up, it's a sign that I am fighting and not giving up.


That's great B1,I'm glad you can do that with EI,it means she must understand,it must be comforting to be able to do that with her.
CSS has said I can but I won't.
If I have to do it, I cry in the garage or bathroom.
As long as CSS does not see it,I don't want to be told I'm not a man ever again for doing that.
It's one thing to have your Dad tell you that but its a whole new ballgame for your wife to say that too you....it sticks and it sticks on top of everything else that happened.
CSS told me this while she was talking to the OM,so I kinda gather that in her mind I was not the man she thought he was.
She compared me to him I guess.
I'll cry when deaths happen,I'll cry for others I love when bad things happen to them or family.
I just will never cry in front of CSS again.
It made an impression in my head when my wife said it was not manly.
I just won't do it.
For the record,I am a man,being a steelworker is not easy,the work and long hours suck.
I can support my family and then some.
I know what I'm capable of doing and I do it without fail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Gosh I don't remember but I do believe him...that is just evil what I said to him. I do not like that wife that said something so harsh and cruel...shame on her. Seriously! What a horrible thing to say to someone, especially your own husband. Hate that person I was. Hate her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

B1 and EI, you have both been in my thoughts this past week. Have been reading your posts but really haven't got the words to express myself at the moment. You are both very special people and hope for the day when your pain is a distant memory (for us all).

Hold each other close and you'll get through it.
Xx


----------



## hopefulgirl

B1, you two will get through this TOGETHER. The love that you have for each other shines through in posts that both of you make, and it is an inspiration to us all. This period will be a challenge, and that's just the way it is - but it's a blip. Your life together, past and future, is much bigger than this. It's the BIG picture that really matters. When you think beyond any one date or any one rough patch, and consider how close you are to one another, what you have now is a marriage that is beautiful and strong and a source of comfort to you both. 

Thanks for sharing the journey with us.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> That's great B1,I'm glad you can do that with EI,it means she must understand,it must be comforting to be able to do that with her.
> CSS has said I can but I won't.
> If I have to do it, I cry in the garage or bathroom.
> As long as CSS does not see it,I don't want to be told I'm not a man ever again for doing that.
> It's one thing to have your Dad tell you that but its a whole new ballgame for your wife to say that too you....it sticks and it sticks on top of everything else that happened.
> CSS told me this while she was talking to the OM,so I kinda gather that in her mind I was not the man she thought he was.
> She compared me to him I guess.
> I'll cry when deaths happen,I'll cry for others I love when bad things happen to them or family.
> I just will never cry in front of CSS again.
> It made an impression in my head when my wife said it was not manly.
> I just won't do it.
> For the record,I am a man,being a steelworker is not easy,the work and long hours suck.
> I can support my family and then some.
> I know what I'm capable of doing and I do it without fail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, I'm the same way. I can't cry in front of my wife or the kids. I usually bite my tongue and hold it back but if I can't I'll go off somewhere alone. I'm not sure why but I think it's because of some of the things my ex said during our breakup because I don't think I was like this before. It does tend to stick in your head doesn't it? Mrs bfree says it's silly and I should cry when I'm upset. Logically I know she's right but I still can't do it. I envy guys like B1 who don't have to hold it in and let things build up. That's a scar I'm not sure that will ever fade but I'm trying.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Calvin, I'm the same way. I can't cry in front of my wife or the kids. I usually bite my tongue and hold it back but if I can't I'll go off somewhere alone. I'm not sure why but I think it's because of some of the things my ex said during our breakup because I don't think I was like this before. It does tend to stick in your head doesn't it? Mrs bfree says it's silly and I should cry when I'm upset. Logically I know she's right but I still can't do it. I envy guys like B1 who don't have to hold it in and let things build up. That's a scar I'm not sure that will ever fade but I'm trying.


I understand where you're coming from bfree,I wish I could let it out also but I'm not willing to take that chance again in front of CSS ever again.
It hurts to have your wife question your manhood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> I understand where you're coming from bfree,I wish I could let it out also but I'm not willing to take that chance again in front of CSS ever again.
> It hurts to have your wife question your manhood.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But doesn't it hurt more, Calvin, to keep picking at the scab and reopening the wound? There is some reason that you do this, whether it is your psyche not wanting to let go because that would make it as if your pain wasn't real, or the pain re-affirms to you that you were wronged and you don't want to forget that.

Bud...it's okay. I totally understand. Letting go of the mind movies of what Regret did with the OM for a span of 5 years has been daunting. No, I'm not completely over it, I've just found a sense of peace within myself in which to deal with it.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> But doesn't it hurt more, Calvin, to keep picking at the scab and reopening the wound? There is some reason that you do this, whether it is your psyche not wanting to let go because that would make it as if your pain wasn't real, or the pain re-affirms to you that you were wronged and you don't want to forget that.
> 
> Bud...it's okay. I totally understand. Letting go of the mind movies of what Regret did with the OM for a span of 5 years has been daunting. No, I'm not completely over it, I've just found a sense of peace within myself in which to deal with it.


I agree with this. It's almost like you are in an affair with that POSOM now. He tried and got nothing from CSS. All he got were a few text messages. But he's getting something from you now Calvin. He got under your skin and he's playing you like a fish on a line. He casts the fly and you bite like a good little trout. Then he catches you and releases you only to cast that fly again in another week. Don't play his game Calvin. You are the only thing he has left in his life. You are providing him with entertainment and joy. Without you he'd have no more reason to live. He's the little boy ringing your doorbell and running away when you answer. Time to turn off the bell and enjoy cuddling on the couch with CSS.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> I understand where you're coming from bfree,I wish I could let it out also but I'm not willing to take that chance again in front of CSS ever again.
> It hurts to have your wife question your manhood.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It hurts when anyone questions your manhood. My wife has never disrespected me at all, my ex did that, and it's still stuck in my head. But it's my problem. And I have to eventually find a way to deal with it. I know it's not healthy but it sure is hard to let go.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I agree with this. It's almost like you are in an affair with that POSOM now. He tried and got nothing from CSS. All he got were a few text messages. But he's getting something from you now Calvin. He got under your skin and he's playing you like a fish on a line. He casts the fly and you bite like a good little trout. Then he catches you and releases you only to cast that fly again in another week. Don't play his game Calvin. You are the only thing he has left in his life. You are providing him with entertainment and joy. Without you he'd have no more reason to live. He's the little boy ringing your doorbell and running away when you answer. Time to turn off the bell and enjoy cuddling on the couch with CSS.


Well for the first time yesterday I did'nt go after him,I have more important things to do,I did let him know that I won't be intimidated.
If he's feeling froggy he can jump but other than that I don't care about him.
He's human garbage that needs to be cast aside and forgotten.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

I know I haven't posted on the "R" thread as often recently...... (Although when I do, I know it's usually a ridiculously long post.... so, maybe no one really noticed..... Geeeez...... maybe no one even gives a rip!  LOL ) I know that I haven't been as diligent about responding to every individual post or even every individual story. I know that it isn't "my job" to do that, anyway, but for some reason I feel a sense of want/need/desire/obligation to do so. And, I feel guilty when I don't. I realize that I'm psychoanalyzing myself..... That's really what we're all doing on TAM, right? Whether we realize it or not? I, also, know that I've used the word "I" more than any other word in all of my posts...... That's probably not a good thing.  :scratchhead:

Only recently have I begun venturing outside of the "CWI" forum. I only do it, now, just to seek a bit of respite and/or levity in the "Social Spot" forum. For the last few weeks, well, for the whole flippin' month of May, I've needed to take a "limited" break from some of the heavier stuff. B1 would disagree with that and say that I'm not really taking a break, but that I've just started focusing on some other threads where I am not as emotionally invested. Not that he actually said that, but I know that's what he's thinking... 

That, in itself, makes me feel kind of guilty.  When I'm truly emotionally invested in people and in the outcomes of their relationships it can literally drain the life out of me. I care about these individuals, their marriages and their families and I can literally become consumed to the point of distraction in my own life. So, I have to take a break. Never for very long and never too far away, and I always keep an eye on the situation, here, ready to jump in, if need be, but hoping that I don't feel the need to. I'm know I'm rambling.....

If this is boring anyone, if there is anyone actually still reading it, please don't feel obligated to continue. I said, once, a while back, that TAM, like journaling, can be therapeutic. But, TAM does talk back....... and, sometimes, it's not very nice!   That's not always a bad thing, because there are times that we need to hear things that, though they may cut us to the core, acknowledging them and understanding them are a key part of our learning, growing, healing, recovering, and ultimately getting closer to becoming the best possible version of ourselves. We can choose to "use" TAM that way. Some use it in other ways that I don't find to be, particularly, helpful to anyone, not even themselves, but that's for another post! 

Wow, how metaphorical!!! What a light bulb moment for me!  This thread is representative of my marriage and my family. It's where my heart is. It's where I feel a great sense of commitment, duty, obligation and responsibility. (I'm so..... #%^*~<€, I don't even know) But, sometimes, I get overwhelmed. Sometimes, I feel like it's all futile. What's the point, anyway? Everything is just too hard...... it's probably not going to work out, anyway. Now, I'm actually laughing at the irony of it all and shaking my head. Everything, it seems, is one step forward and two steps backwards...... You begin wonder if you'll ever see the fruits of your labor........ (That was my marriage and family.... a few years ago.) 

Now, the Social Spot" forum is fun!!!!  There's no responsibility and no obligations!!!!!  You can come and go as you please!!! You don't have to answer to anyone. You always have a good time when you're there and it's not a big "drain" on your time, energy and resources. And, "it's" always happy to see you.  Why wouldn't it be? You bring it all of your best self.... Your laughter, your playful sense of adventure, your energy, whoo-hoo....... It's always "fun" in the "Social Spot" forum! Of course when we go there we leave our burdens, our bills, our responsibilities, and our obligations behind. If we mention them, at all, it's just in a passing, witty, flippant tone...... We don't want to risk ruining our good time, do we???  We look forward to going there and we kind of dread going "back home." (That was my "A" that began over 2 years ago.)  It devastates me.......... It wasn't real, there was no substance, no depth, no meaning, no true investment..... Sure, the rewards were easily attainable....... because they lacked in any real value...... It took no effort to get them..... They were empty............ It didn't make me a better person. There was no lasting value......... metaphorically speaking..........

Home is where my heart is. The rewards might take an entire lifetime to come to fruition. But it's value is that it is effecting something real, valuable, meaningful, worthwhile....... Eternal. My family is my heart, my home, my life..........

Never again, B1........ I will NEVER hurt you, me, the kids, us, that way, again. I love you, I love our children, I love my life..... It's still not easy. I don't believe that you and I were destined for "easy." But, I want to spend my eternity with you. I don't care if "we" get the tiniest mansion, of all, in Heaven. I just want to share mine with you.


----------



## old timer

calvin said:


> He's human garbage that needs to be cast aside and forgotten.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


calvin - you're letting "toothless" get to you.

Stop it.

.


----------



## daisygirl 41

I saw you posting in the social spot E1. I didn't tell on you!!
Lol.
Don't be so daft. We forgive you.
Xxx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Please send positive thoughts Matt's way. He left today for a landscape photography trip and has been really struggling with the affair and all the triggers lately. First the letter from J, then being apart, and this weekend is the 1 year anniversary of the beginning of the PA. It's tough on both of us, but especially him as he's been alone in the house since Monday, and now spent hours in a van driving and just thinking about all the things I said and wrote to OM last year. It sucks to be facing all these triggers alone and I'm sure he feels abandoned by me again. . We won't see each other until next Friday, and since he's camping, we won't know how often or when we can even text/talk on the phone.

Thanks for the positive energy, and hoping everyone is doing ok. I've been thinking of you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Please send positive thoughts Matt's way. He left today for a landscape photography trip and has been really struggling with the affair and all the triggers lately. First the letter from J, then being apart, and this weekend is the 1 year anniversary of the beginning of the PA. It's tough on both of us, but especially him as he's been alone in the house since Monday, and now spent hours in a van driving and just thinking about all the things I said and wrote to OM last year. It sucks to be facing all these triggers alone and I'm sure he feels abandoned by me again. . We won't see each other until next Friday, and since he's camping, we won't know how often or when we can even text/talk on the phone.
> 
> Thanks for the positive energy, and hoping everyone is doing ok. I've been thinking of you all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good thoughts and a prayer coming your way,this is rough stuff but I know we all can work through this.
You and Matt take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

old timer said:


> calvin - you're letting "toothless" get to you.
> 
> Stop it.
> 
> .


Yes I know OT but when someone threatens to come to your house and f your wife a few times you want to take that person down to the ground.
He said much worse.
He gets enjoyment out of it,I won't give it too him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

calvin said:


> If I have to do it, I cry in the garage or bathroom.
> As long as CSS does not see it,I don't want to be told I'm not a man ever again for doing that.
> It's one thing to have your Dad tell you that but its a whole new ballgame for your wife to say that too you....it sticks and it sticks on top of everything else that happened.
> CSS told me this while she was talking to the OM,so I kinda gather that in her mind I was not the man she thought he was.
> She compared me to him I guess.


WS's forgive me for what I am about to type.

Calvin, when someone is in an affair they talk a lot of sh1t. I get that it is hard to let go of, but you kind of have to.

Be a real man. Real men cry sometimes. Be who you are and who cares what she thinks. To be honest, if you really have to be someone you are not to be with her, do you want it?

Either she realises she is lucky to have you or she doesn't. That is on her.


----------



## calvin

Wazza said:


> WS's forgive me for what I am about to type.
> 
> Calvin, when someone is in an affair they talk a lot of sh1t. I get that it is hard to let go of, but you kind of have to.
> 
> Be a real man. Real men cry sometimes. Be who you are and who cares what she thinks. To be honest, if you really have to be someone you are not to be with her, do you want it?
> 
> Either she realises she is lucky to have you or she doesn't. That is on her.


No wazza she is doing good by me.
That being said,if she ever did this again or just wanted a D out of the blue I would not be crushed or hurt.
Sad maybe but my heart and mind have hardend,I don't expect anyone to do anything for me or keep me happy.
The one person I could always depend on is me,I love CSS but she does not define me and she can't really hurt me again.
I won't let her or anyone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

It is true about some of what gets said. C&B has told me things I said that I honestly have NO recollection of ever saying. I know he's being truthful and the things are horrible to hear.

I can't ever take that back but I do know it wasn't truthful. The only thing I can equate it to is the dumb things someone might say under the influence.


----------



## Wazza

calvin said:


> No wazza she is doing good by me.
> That being said,if she ever did this again or just wanted a D out of the blue I would not be crushed or hurt.
> Sad maybe but my heart and mind have hardend,I don't expect anyone to do anything for me or keep me happy.
> The one person I could always depend on is me,I love CSS but she does not define me and she can't really hurt me again.
> I won't let her or anyone else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have just summed up, in your marriage, the philosophical approach that made reconciliation possible in mine.


----------



## calvin

Wazza said:


> You have just summed up, in your marriage, the philosophical approach that made reconciliation possible in mine.


I wanted R,even though she met the loser it didn't go physical,of that I am sure.Something held her back,her morals maybe but who knows what might have happend.
She would have gotten hurt I know that for sure.
I love her and I wasn't about to let anything happen to her,it doesn't matter who would try to take advantage of her,stranger,a friend or family.
No one messes with my girl,they will go through me first and they won't make it past me.
She can't believe what she did.Like a lot of the ex-WS here.
I'm not someone who looks at things and see's what I want to see.
Reality can hurt,it can also heal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Please send positive thoughts Matt's way. He left today for a landscape photography trip and has been really struggling with the affair and all the triggers lately. First the letter from J, then being apart, and this weekend is the 1 year anniversary of the beginning of the PA. It's tough on both of us, but especially him as he's been alone in the house since Monday, and now spent hours in a van driving and just thinking about all the things I said and wrote to OM last year. It sucks to be facing all these triggers alone and I'm sure he feels abandoned by me again. . We won't see each other until next Friday, and since he's camping, we won't know how often or when we can even text/talk on the phone.
> 
> Thanks for the positive energy, and hoping everyone is doing ok. I've been thinking of you all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Positive thoughts coming your way...it's tough mrs m.
I understand completely what he's going through. I'm sorry I know this is hard for both of you. Hang in there and stay strong.


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin, you are the best . I know you always have my back, I know you won't allow anyone to ever hurt me. You are my shoulder to cry on even when you don't really understand why I cry. Love so many things about you. I know God put us together because He knows how much we need and take care of each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

It's a bad, bad night. Matt just texted me that he wished he'd packed all his things and moved out after I left on my work trip this week and before he left for his school trip. We're both so devastated by what I've done. I don't know if he will come home after this, or if this absence is the final catalyst for the end.

As awful as getting the letter was earlier this week, it gave me so much hope the way we faced it together in that moment. But he started retreading my early posts and revisiting his pain from back then, and its so raw and bloody. I'm sure it feels to him like nothing has changed, like is is only plan B, and I can't even be with him to help with that hurt. I can't even begin to process this shift.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

That sort of mood swing is normal. Waaaaaaay too soon to be worried. Hang in there. (And Matt if you have connectivity, you hang in there too).


----------



## CantSitStill

Mrs. M, I am so sorry you're going through this apart. My hope is he will feel better later, yes this is hard and I'm sure you're having trouble sleeping. You need to take a warm bath, try to relax, eat something to take care of yourself and the baby. I'm gonna pray for you extra hard tonight. I have been freaked out many times by Calvin's texts of how bad I've hurt him how and he's unsure we belong together and it's so stressful but you need to find ways to de stress at least for the baby. There will be better days. Try some deep breathing exersises. I'll be praying, keep us posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Is it safe to take benedryl during pregnancy? I know it helps with sleep but I'd call a pharmacist first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Calvin
> No wazza she is doing good by me.
> That being said,if she ever did this again or just wanted a D out of the blue I would not be crushed or hurt.
> Sad maybe but my heart and mind have hardend,I don't expect anyone to do anything for me or keep me happy.
> The one person I could always depend on is me,I love CSS but she does not define me and *she can't really hurt me again.*I won't let her or anyone else.
> Posted via Mobile Device
> 
> WAZZA
> You have just summed up, in your marriage, the philosophical approach that made reconciliation possible in mine.




I understand Calvin, however, I am a little bit surprised by WAZZA's response. Actually the only thing that surprised me was his agreeing with the statement *“she can't really hurt me again”*

I guess that because WAZZA and I have about the same years in R and other areas that we are alike, I think that he is like me in everything. I know better, I know that no man reacts the same in everything in infidelity; just not on my toes today.

*I will speak only for me. My wife can still hurt me*; I gave her that power years ago when I went into R and was successful with R for many years. The more years into R went the more I came back to her. For me when you start healing you drop the iron walls. Now don’t get me wrong, she can still hurt me but she cannot devastate me anymore. I have learned to become self sufficient to a higher degree. However in marriage I can never become 100% self sufficient.

I can understand Calvin as I was like him in the first years. However after 5-10-20 years with a wife that is truly remorseful, respectful, and loving, I have opened myself up to her to the point that she can still hurt me. *The OM cannot hurt me because I feel nothing for him but I do have feelings for my wife.*


The only way that my wife can never hurt me again is if I have no feeling for her. That is not the case with me.


> I don't expect anyone to do anything for me or keep me happy.
> The one person I could always depend on is me



*Now those two statements above are not only great philosophically, they are great to have as a goal and to continually strive to achieve 100%*. I am moving towards 100%.


----------



## Wazza

Mr Blunt said:


> I understand Calvin, however, I am a little bit surprised by WAZZA's response. Actually the only thing that surprised me was his agreeing with the statement *“she can't really hurt me again”*
> 
> I guess that because WAZZA and I have about the same years in R and other areas that we are alike, I think that he is like me in everything. I know better, I know that no man reacts the same in everything in infidelity; just not on my toes today.
> 
> *I will speak only for me. My wife can still hurt me*; I gave her that power years ago when I went into R and was successful with R for many years. The more years into R went the more I came back to her. For me when you start healing you drop the iron walls. Now don’t get me wrong, she can still hurt me but she cannot devastate me anymore. I have learned to become self sufficient to a higher degree. However in marriage I can never become 100% self sufficient.
> 
> I can understand Calvin as I was like him in the first years. However after 5-10-20 years with a wife that is truly remorseful, respectful, and loving, I have opened myself up to her to the point that she can still hurt me. *The OM cannot hurt me because I feel nothing for him but I do have feelings for my wife.*
> 
> 
> The only way that my wife can never hurt me again is if I have no feeling for her. That is not the case with me.
> 
> 
> 
> *Now those two statements above are not only great philosophically, they are great to have as a goal and to continually strive to achieve 100%*. I am moving towards 100%.


Oh dear. I wasn't happy with my words, worried that they were open to misinterpretation. But getting busted for a "like"......

You said it better than me anyway



> Now don’t get me wrong, she can still hurt me but she cannot devastate me anymore. I have learned to become self sufficient to a higher degree.


I don't see it as a slight on the WS that I choose to redefine the relationship. It seems quite common to regard the old marriage as dead in healing from infidelity, which is what I did for a long time. 

And none of this means I don't love my wife and think she is amazing.


----------



## calvin

Mr.Blunt I guess what I ment to say is she can't hurt me to that degree anymore,she can still hurt me but no way can I be ripped open again like that.
I honestly don't see her doing anything to cause me pain like that again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Though GF and I have not entered R yet, I am still the first person she tends to call when she needs help or support. (This makes me so happy.) She has said that she feels she can begin relying on me again. She is very careful in committing to R precisely because she feels I could devastate her again if things weren't completely different from how they were before. I realize the sacred trust inherent in that, and in what she is close to extending to me, and I am awed and humbled by that and by her. It's like a second chance at life. If we R, the new me won't waste it or screw up again. I can't believe that she still loves me so much despite the fact that I betrayed and devastated her.  But I must do better than becoming a new and better person - I must become the guardian of her heart and soul, just like I always should have been.


----------



## B1

Prayers for EI please, going to the dr. Here in a minute for a scan. She's having female problems and has a tumor, we are hoping, praying that its benign.
She hasn't mentioned it but she is scared, very scared. Please thoughts and prayers are appreciated right now.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Oh, B1, I'm so sorry you are both going through this! Sending strength and hope to each of you as together you face the doctor today. I hope it's benign.


----------



## cpacan

Thoughts and mental support for the both of you coming right away.


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## CantSitStill

Oh my, praying for EI..Mrs. M, how are you this morning?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

B1 said:


> Prayers for EI please, going to the dr. Here in a minute for a scan. She's having female problems and has a tumor, we are hoping, praying that its benign.
> She hasn't mentioned it but she is scared, very scared. Please thoughts and prayers are appreciated right now.


You are both in my thoughts and prayers !!!


----------



## calvin

Prayers coming B1
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Saying a prayer for you guys right now!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

CantSitStill said:


> Oh my, praying for EI..Mrs. M, how are you this morning?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm hanging in there. Exhausted, but surviving. I've got a 15 hour day ahead of me at work with a load-in this morning and performance and load-out tonight. The busy-ness will be good, I just hope I don't forget something important or make a mistake because my brain is having a hard time staying with it.

Thank you for asking. I appreciate it very much.


----------



## happyman64

Prayers to EI coming her way. 

I have been the light this with my MIL, Mom, SIL and my wife. All are still here with us and healthy. 

Keep her chin up B1 and yours too. 

HM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

You must be tired and stressed Mrs. M. I went to bed and prayed for you last night. Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Today, will be praying for EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thinking of you EI xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Oh, and so not to disrespect those who are not religious, I went out and touched a tree for EI


----------



## margrace

*EI and B1*, sending love and positive energy your way....
*
Mrs. M and Matt*, as others have said so well, hang in there. as the waves continue to crash, keep standing back up <determined fighter face here -- no emoticon for that >

*calvin and CSS*, thank you for your ongoing commitment and your open, loving posts!

how are you, *CM and DD*?

*wazza and mr. b*, that exchange between the two of you was so helpful and clarifying for me. yes, the people whom i love can always, by definition, hurt me -- i can only be 100% safe from that by not loving/caring. *AND* getting to that place where i can go on and be whole in my own skin, regardless of what choices WH makes or *even whether he is still in my life or not *-- that has been essential for my R.


----------



## B1

wow ....thank you all so much. She just went back for the scan. The consult is scheduled immediately after.


----------



## Acabado

EA, B1 you are in my thoughts.


----------



## StarGazer101

Best wishes to EI - thinking of you both


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Thoughts and prayers to EI and B1. 

I know how hard something like this is. And as tough as it is, know it is so much better becuase you guys can, and are, so supportive of eachother. THIS IS WHAT REAL LOVE IS. That's huge!

Stay strong and know you guys have army praying for you and supporting you in any way we can!


----------



## bfree

Praying for you both B1.


----------



## hopefulgirl

I am "hopeful" for EI. Most of these things are benign, and I sincerely hope that is the case. My thoughts are with both of you, EI & B1.


----------



## hopefulgirl

soulpotato said:


> Though GF and I have not entered R yet, I am still the first person she tends to call when she needs help or support. (This makes me so happy.) She has said that she feels she can begin relying on me again. She is very careful in committing to R precisely because she feels I could devastate her again if things weren't completely different from how they were before. I realize the sacred trust inherent in that, and in what she is close to extending to me, and I am awed and humbled by that and by her. It's like a second chance at life. If we R, the new me won't waste it or screw up again. I can't believe that she still loves me so much despite the fact that I betrayed and devastated her.  But I must do better than becoming a new and better person - I must become the guardian of her heart and soul, just like I always should have been.


soulpotato, I can tell you that trust takes a LONG time to rebuild after infidelity. But since you are there for her now when she needs someone to turn to, and she is seeing how much you want to be that source of safety and comfort for her, you are doing exactly what you need to do to lay the foundation for possible R. 

Time is needed, too, and you can't make that pass any quicker.  

But keep doing what you're doing with the things that you CAN control, and the more confident she can feel about your trustworthiness. The R decision is up to her, but it sounds like you are truly showing her that you are committed to her and to your relationship and to making yourself a partner she can believe in.


----------



## cpacan

hopefulgirl said:


> soulpotato, I can tell you that trust takes a LONG time to rebuild after infidelity. But since you are there for her now when she needs someone to turn to, and she is seeing how much you want to be that source of safety and comfort for her, you are doing exactly what you need to do to lay the foundation for possible R.
> 
> Time is needed, too, and you can't make that pass any quicker.
> 
> But keep doing what you're doing with the things that you CAN control, and the more confident she can feel about your trustworthiness. The R decision is up to her, but it sounds like you are truly showing her that you are committed to her and to your relationship and to making yourself a partner she can believe in.


:iagree:


----------



## TCSRedhead

You're in my thoughts and prayers for positive answers, EI and B1.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Well, Matt has asked for No Contact with me, and I guess he'll tell me how to proceed when he returns from his trip next Friday. What I've done is too much for anyone to take. He has really tried, and is a very good man. I will be forever grateful for the last 6 months of time with him and our son. As difficult as it has been, there are some really special memories for me. Thank you all for your care and advice. I know that your words have helped me on my journey toward becoming more like the person I hope to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Don't asume it's a done deal. Really.
We have triggery dates here.


----------



## CantSitStill

I'm sorry Mrs. M...don't give up tho ok?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Mrs. M - don't give up quite yet. If he's asking for space, then give that but it may take him some time yet to come back around.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I'm going to keep doing my part. I talked briefly with Steve Harley this morning and reaffirmed that I have been doing what I can. I'm sticking to the plan. But I do understand that it may not matter. Matt faces terrible pain constantly from what I've done. While it would certainly be ideal for him to be in love with the mother of his children, I'm sure his ideal doesn't include that woman being a betraying, lying, cheater. I do believe a better future could be built for us. But Matt likely feels that will never happen or is too distant to be worthwhile. He may believe that short term relief from getting rid of me is more beneficial and necessary to his well being than any long term ideal. I can see that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

It is horrible pain but it's pain he will have to face and bear whether you are together or separate. It's not so simple to part ways as you do have children and as good parents you'll have regular contact. 

I truly believe this will get better.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I am trying to keep a spark of hope, but I also want to make sure that my own stubbornness and tenacity don't prevent me from accepting the reality of what he wants and needs. I am still working on myself and working for us, but I need to find a path to acceptance of whatever he decides for our future. It's hard to balance those things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Forever for me, 
And forever for you;
Meant something different it seems
Than what I thought was true.
My heart ripped open;
The blood flowed forth...
All you could do was sit there
And tell me you were sorry.
It helped but it hurt,
I glimpsed into your soul.
I was scared and betrayed
By everything that you stole.
I wrote you a note
One that meant a lot...
"One day I'll show you how much I love you";
Now you know what you've got.


Mrs. M., I just wrote that after re-reading about you and Matt. I know he's hurt. I've been there. Still can go there at the oddest time. I actually found the note that I wrote to Regret dated 3/18/1999 yesterday while looking for a flying manual. I gave it to her again when I came upstairs. Oddly enough, it was in the basement near the room where "they" used to go. I told her I wish I knew it was there a decade ago cuz I would have framed it for her to always remember how much I love her.

Unfortunately, you have to wait for Matt. That must be gut wrenching.


----------



## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> Oh, and so not to disrespect those who are not religious, I went out and touched a tree for EI


Dendrophilia. Proving that there is a word for everything. And probably also a course in therapy and some antiquated statutes. 

Thoughts are with you, EI and B1. You guys have been through enough. And manage it all admirably.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

SomedayDig said:


> Forever for me,
> And forever for you;
> Meant something different it seems
> Than what I thought was true.
> My heart ripped open;
> The blood flowed forth...
> All you could do was sit there
> And tell me you were sorry.
> It helped but it hurt,
> I glimpsed into your soul.
> I was scared and betrayed
> By everything that you stole.
> I wrote you a note
> One that meant a lot...
> "One day I'll show you how much I love you";
> Now you know what you've got.
> 
> 
> Mrs. M., I just wrote that after re-reading about you and Matt. I know he's hurt. I've been there. Still can go there at the oddest time. I actually found the note that I wrote to Regret dated 3/18/1999 yesterday while looking for a flying manual. I gave it to her again when I came upstairs. Oddly enough, it was in the basement near the room where "they" used to go. I told her I wish I knew it was there a decade ago cuz I would have framed it for her to always remember how much I love her.
> 
> Unfortunately, you have to wait for Matt. That must be gut wrenching.


Thank you, Dig. Your poem is very moving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CEL

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm going to keep doing my part. I talked briefly with Steve Harley this morning and reaffirmed that I have been doing what I can. I'm sticking to the plan. But I do understand that it may not matter. Matt faces terrible pain constantly from what I've done. While it would certainly be ideal for him to be in love with the mother of his children, I'm sure his ideal doesn't include that woman being a betraying, lying, cheater. I do believe a better future could be built for us. But Matt likely feels that will never happen or is too distant to be worthwhile. He may believe that short term relief from getting rid of me is more beneficial and necessary to his well being than any long term ideal. I can see that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I don't usually post here as I just don't feel it is my place as I am not in reconciliation but when I see someone who through her messages I have grown to care about who needs a little support I thought I would go ahead and post. Mrs your H recently posted that he has seen real change in you and he has defended you against others on his thread. This does not seem like a person who is ready to throw in the towel and move on. In fact that entire thread started as a D thread the only thing that changed that was well YOU. What you did changed the course of that thread the actions you took the steps you went through. Your honesty and love and willingness to do whatever it took to try to build something out of the ashes. I think that Mr loves you wildly, completely and would do anything for you the problem is that as deep as that love is so is the betrayal and the betrayal feeds on that love without that love there would be no feelings of betrayal. Like the analogy of the white dog and the black dog whichever one you feed gets bigger. You have shown him love and I honestly think that his love for you is greater than his feelings of betrayal at this point without you around maybe all he can see is darkness.

I think this is NC temporary and will be soon to pass he has not brought up D again that I can see so I think he is committed to making this work. He also does not seem like the type to give up on something he has committed to and I think he has committed to R. Also please don't lose sight of the fact that he loves you and that you love him have faith in that love that it will endure these times. As for the whole he needs to move on as that would be better for him. If his heart is truly evenly divided and his mind has to make a decision then he will stay the pros and cons just line up way to much on the pro stay column, he is a smart cookie I am sure he already has done the numbers. Well that is my rambling post just want you know people care about you and are behind you.


----------



## jh52

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well, Matt has asked for No Contact with me, and I guess he'll tell me how to proceed when he returns from his trip next Friday. What I've done is too much for anyone to take. He has really tried, and is a very good man. I will be forever grateful for the last 6 months of time with him and our son. As difficult as it has been, there are some really special memories for me. Thank you all for your care and advice. I know that your words have helped me on my journey toward becoming more like the person I hope to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M -- that's why I say in these situations -- take it minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day. I say this and really mean this because just a few days ago Matt was defending your actions when you got that letter from J.

It's not over by a long shot -- Matt may have looked back into that dreaded rear view mirror (not easy sometimes not to) and is triggering.

Just continue on your path to become a better human, wife, mother, etc -- that is all you can do ----and learn from the past.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thank you all. I'm hanging in there. I think this just stings for me so much more right now than a normal up and down because he was so supportive of me earlier this week. To have him defend me and say we are in reconciliation was more than I ever expected.

But I'm sure that at the same time his brain said, "See, she did the right thing now. Why wouldn't she before? She's clearly capable and knows right from wrong. She just chose to disregard you and deliberately hurt you." There is no logical argument against that.

Tomorrow's another day. We'll see what's in store for me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Thank you ALL so very much for you prayers, your positive thoughts and your concern.... It means so much to us. Although, I had NO intentions of posting about it unless or until there was something definitive to tell. But, my sweet husband already has, so here is the update:

I've had an invasive (that's all I'm saying) ultra-sound, I've been poked, probed, felt up, squeezed, etc. I have several small tumors in my uterus and I'm experiencing a lot of unpleasant symptoms, but unless I want to have a hysterectomy, there is no way to determine with absolute certainty whether or not I have cancer (this, according to my gynecologist.) I thought that's what biopsies were for??? :scratchhead: Gyno doesn't think it's cancer.

Anyway, we have a college grad party to attend for our son-in-law tomorrow afternoon. Then, our youngest son and his girlfriend are going to *her junior prom *tomorrow night. B1 and I, along with our special needs son, daughter, son-in-law and grandson are leaving on Sunday morning for a two day trip to Gatlinburg, TN, and I haven't even started washing and packing, yet. And, I just realized that I totally forgot to pick up our son's tux from the Mall and the wristlet and boutonnière from the florist. (Yes, I just did this last month for *his prom*....$$$$$) 

Last night we finally had an overdue birthday party for our oldest son who turned 23 on May 4th and for our youngest son's girlfriend who turned 17 on May 2nd. Did I mention that we've been taking care of our middle son's girlfriend all week? She had her wisdom teeth extracted on Monday. She's a precious angel, but she doesn't have a mother (in her life) and her Dad is married to an evil step-monster, and somebody needs to do it. I love her as if she were my own. It's been kind of nice, though, because our middle son is the one who puts all of our parenting skills to the test every single day. But, NOW, he needs us, a little more than usual, so he has been on his BEST behavior and he has been very, very appreciative! 

B1 and the kids made Mother's Day so incredibly nice this year. Each of them planning something special on their own, independent of the others, and it all came together into such a wonderful day.... with all of the kids, their SO's, and the grandson, here at our house.

I'm following everyone's stories.... Sorry for not taking the time to respond to each of you guys..... But, I know that you all do a great job of taking care of each other and that it is only my own (brand of crazy ) that feels like I'm supposed to be........ you know, taking care of everyone.....  I know y'all don't need me nearly as much as I'd like to think you do...... 

Mrs. M., I did send you a pm.

Love you guys........


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## TCSRedhead

Ugh - yes, fun times those invasive ultrasounds. Stay sane somewhere in all that chaos EI and B1!


----------



## CantSitStill

Mrs. M. What everyone is saying makes a lot of sense. Last week I believe it was that I posted that it's not working and it's over. Well in their minds, they really mean it this time. I am hoping he's having a bad trigger yet will feel better soon. Calvin's triggers at times lasted more than a day and would usually be the worst after he had a good amount of days and felt real positive about us. Then after doing so well BAM he'd get a horrible one. I should go back and count how many times this has happened. I know that Axevery time it does, I feel he really really means it this time that he just can't handle it and it really is over. But I've been wrong every single time I thought that...I know that you cannot predict what will happen and I know that scares the crap outa you. I don't feel mad when Calvin gets that way, I feel sad yet understanding as to why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey EI! Your plate is very full, but you can do it! I am happy to know you are taking care of your health needs, otherwise you wouldn't be able to help out the kids with all their stuff!
You are Wonder Woman don't[ya know? ...just teasinsize=1]_Posted via Mobile Device_[/size]


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## TCSRedhead

Well, EI is kinda short so I think we should nickname her Mighty Might? Cuz Wonder Woman was tall/amazonian, right?

Luvs to y'all!


----------



## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thank you all. I'm hanging in there. I think this just stings for me so much more right now than a normal up and down because he was so supportive of me earlier this week. To have him defend me and say we are in reconciliation was more than I ever expected.
> 
> But I'm sure that at the same time his brain said, "See, she did the right thing now. Why wouldn't she before? She's clearly capable and knows right from wrong. She just chose to disregard you and deliberately hurt you." There is no logical argument against that.
> 
> Tomorrow's another day. We'll see what's in store for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Time to be strong Mrs. M and make tomorrow count like every other day.

I know you can keep doing it.

And remember you can only control you. So focus on yourself.

Keep your chin up!


----------



## hopefulgirl

EI, been there done that with those ultrasounds. 

These things usually are benign, though it's so hard NOT to worry until you know for sure.

All the stuff you have on your plate - maybe the distraction is good, though you REALLY have a TON of it!!

Hoping for the best, and wishing you as much peace of mind as is possible under the circumstances. I know there's a lot of love in that house, and that helps SO much during a situation like this.


----------



## calvin

Give him time Mrs.M,I've felt like that more than once as you know,only to have a turn around days later.
He's struggling right now.
I have seen some good signs from him in his post.
Hang in there,I have a feeling you both will be fine,it might take some time but you both will get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

EI, glad that your spirits are high and that the news from the doc wasn't necessarily bad! Here you are back on TAM already, LOL.  I'm always happy to see you posting and kicking around on here!


----------



## soulpotato

Mrs M, I am so sorry.  Like the others have said, hang tight. Mr M was so positive just the other day, so I don't think those feelings could have disappeared that suddenly. He is probably consumed with wrestling with his pain right now, but will return to you after he has had some time to sort things out.


----------



## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> soulpotato, I can tell you that trust takes a LONG time to rebuild after infidelity. But since you are there for her now when she needs someone to turn to, and she is seeing how much you want to be that source of safety and comfort for her, you are doing exactly what you need to do to lay the foundation for possible R.
> 
> Time is needed, too, and you can't make that pass any quicker.


No worries, I'm not going to try to rush her back into trust or comfort with me. I am in this for the long haul. If she decides she wants to R, I am willing to keep building and working on this for, well, the rest of our lives. (Until then, I will keep laying the foundation in the hopes that she will choose me and R - unless she says she just wants to walk away, and then I would respect her wishes.) I definitely want to be the person she turns to, the one who is closest to her. It really bothers me that I can no longer KNOW that she is okay because we live in different places now. When she is sick, she can't just shake me awake and tell me she needs help. I can't bear the thought of something happening to her.

Thank you so much for the encouragement, HG, as always.  



hopefulgirl said:


> But keep doing what you're doing with the things that you CAN control, and the more confident she can feel about your trustworthiness. The R decision is up to her, but it sounds like you are truly showing her that you are committed to her and to your relationship and to making yourself a partner she can believe in.


Will do. :smthumbup: I think she is starting to feel/see that, and I am hopeful (trying to remain cautious about hoping, but it's very hard). I'll be with her again this weekend. Can't wait to see her.

If you guys have any more suggestions or input for me, let me know.


----------



## soulpotato

SomedayDig said:


> Oh, and so not to disrespect those who are not religious, I went out and touched a tree for EI


LOL, Dig, this totally cracked me up! Did you say anything to the tree? Because that's the most important part!


----------



## SomedayDig

soulpotato said:


> LOL, Dig, this totally cracked me up! Did you say anything to the tree? Because that's the most important part!


Of course I did. I asked that the universe in its infinite wisdom watch over EI (except I know her real name so I actually used that).


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Mrs. M. What everyone is saying makes a lot of sense. Last week I believe it was that I posted that it's not working and it's over. Well in their minds, they really mean it this time. I am hoping he's having a bad trigger yet will feel better soon. Calvin's triggers at times lasted more than a day and would usually be the worst after he had a good amount of days and felt real positive about us. Then after doing so well BAM he'd get a horrible one. I should go back and count how many times this has happened. I know that Axevery time it does, I feel he really really means it this time that he just can't handle it and it really is over. But I've been wrong every single time I thought that...I know that you cannot predict what will happen and I know that scares the crap outa you. I don't feel mad when Calvin gets that way, I feel sad yet understanding as to why.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its true. After several good days calvin would usually trigger. I think its the mind trying to remind you of the pain. Sort of like a wake up call for protection. But it does go away and things return to the R path. Mrs M, don't lose hope. Matt is a very strong smart man. He won't let his volatile emotions dictate what he is going to do.


----------



## CantSitStill

The problem is...if Mrs. M is anything like me, she is telling herself " no, but it's different this time and he really means it". I really feel your pain Mrs.M. It's very hard to function with you worrying about him and not able to do anything. It totally sucks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Of course I did. I asked that the universe in its infinite wisdom watch over EI (except I know her real name so I actually used that).


What kind of tree was it Dig?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

EI,some how I glanced over your post,probably because it was'nt six pages long. 
Pretty good news,keep us updated.
Both in our thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Its true. After several good days calvin would usually trigger. I think its the mind trying to remind you of the pain. Sort of like a wake up call for protection. But it does go away and things return to the R path. Mrs M, don't lose hope. Matt is a very strong smart man. He won't let his volatile emotions dictate what he is going to do.


Yep,I still do feel like that but after 15 months those feelings are further apart and the triggers have lost a lot of their strenght.
CSS is a big part of helping me gain control over this crap.
Be determinded Mrs.M and consistant.
Give him time,he has a lot of thinking too do and a lot of things to figure out in his own head yet.
I feel he has not reached a conclusion,Christ I flopped all over the place.
I have a feeling you both will make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> *EI,some how I glanced over your post,probably because it was'nt six pages long. *
> Pretty good news,keep us updated.
> Both in our thoughts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




*Oh no you did NOT just imply that you don't read every single word of every single post that I type, did you? *


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## SomedayDig

calvin said:


> What kind of tree was it Dig?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a beautiful gigantic Maple in our front yard. Very old and just wonderful.

I know it sounds crazy, but the truth is, a few years ago I started a wedding ministry and did the online ordination. Except I didn't just do it to do one wedding, I've done a lot of them. I actually have a biker wedding I'm doing tomorrow. The first wedding I have done since Dday when I stopped my ministry...which is a shame cuz I was making between $200-$400 cash every weekend or so. 

More than that, I began a long and deep spiritual journey of myself and my universe. I realized that when it all comes down to it (and I hate to sound preachy, but there's no way around it) there is a Grand Architect a Oneness a Universal Spirit. It doesn't matter if you call it God, Jesus, Boghadiva, Yahweh, Allah or Mother Earth...It all funnels to this Oneness. As long as you believe in something, that is all that truly matters.

The precise number of protons and neutrons, the fact that if the Big Bang Theory had been milliseconds faster or slower that NONE of this would exist ever...too hot or too cold. Things - are too perfect.

So...in honor of the people here who do not wish to participate in prayers to Christ, God or Whomever, I decided to think of them too...because their belief is NO different - and I touched that wonderful tree in our front yard.

Kind of a long assed answer for "What kind of tree was it?"


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> *Oh no you did NOT just imply that you don't read every single word of every single post that I type, did you? *


Oh nooo! When I see an EI post, I grab some coffee or tea, settle in, and get sucked right in just like with a good book!


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## CantSitStill

Lol Soul I am the same way when I see she posted, I make sure I go potty or get whatever I need so I can sit comfy and read . Dig, I'm with you on how each thing,person, animal, plant...well just how perfectly the planets come together. Amazing 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

EI said:


> *Oh no you did NOT just imply that you don't read every single word of every single post that I type, did you? *


Still trying to catch up from weeks ago on your post Stephen King....er I mean EI!!
Lot of good stuff in what you write EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> It's a beautiful gigantic Maple in our front yard. Very old and just wonderful.
> 
> I know it sounds crazy, but the truth is, a few years ago I started a wedding ministry and did the online ordination. Except I didn't just do it to do one wedding, I've done a lot of them. I actually have a biker wedding I'm doing tomorrow. The first wedding I have done since Dday when I stopped my ministry...which is a shame cuz I was making between $200-$400 cash every weekend or so.
> 
> More than that, I began a long and deep spiritual journey of myself and my universe. I realized that when it all comes down to it (and I hate to sound preachy, but there's no way around it) there is a Grand Architect a Oneness a Universal Spirit. It doesn't matter if you call it God, Jesus, Boghadiva, Yahweh, Allah or Mother Earth...It all funnels to this Oneness. As long as you believe in something, that is all that truly matters.
> 
> The precise number of protons and neutrons, the fact that if the Big Bang Theory had been milliseconds faster or slower that NONE of this would exist ever...too hot or too cold. Things - are too perfect.
> 
> So...in honor of the people here who do not wish to participate in prayers to Christ, God or Whomever, I decided to think of them too...because their belief is NO different - and I touched that wonderful tree in our front yard.
> 
> Kind of a long assed answer for "What kind of tree was it?"


So,was it a purple maple?
Its cool Dig,I believe in God,all this stuff did'nt happen by accident.
I played the piano for my church,my Dad was the song leader and my Sunday school teacher.
Lot of good memories.
I am saved and I don't believe God minds me having a beer or not going to church on Sundays,its the only day I have off.
Church isn't a bulilding anyway,its the people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Oh nooo! When I see an EI post, I grab some coffee or tea, settle in, and get sucked right in just like with a good book!


I call the cable guy,he's here between 9 and 5,gives me time to catch up on EI's post!
I think I better run now.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Ummm...a maple tree in my yard...LOL I got no clue as I'm a reformed pilot and not a botonist or part of the Arbor Society


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## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Ummm...a maple tree in my yard...LOL I got no clue as I'm a reformed pilot and not a botonist or part of the Arbor Society


Silver Maple??
You call yourself a pilot??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CEL said:


> I don't usually post here as I just don't feel it is my place as I am not in reconciliation but when I see someone who through her messages I have grown to care about who needs a little support I thought I would go ahead and post.


CEL,

If you're breathing, you have a heartbeat and you're interested in being a part of the solution, then this is, in fact, your place. 

Nice post, BTW.


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## CantSitStill

Really? This is EI's shortest post ever!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Really? This is EI's shortest post ever!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I keep tellin' ya...... I'm takin' a break!


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## CantSitStill

Mrs. M. I am praying you get your rest tonight. Got you on my mind, I know how hard this is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

EI said:


> CEL,
> 
> If you're breathing, you have a heartbeat and you're interested in being a part of the solution, then this is, in fact, your place.
> 
> Nice post, BTW.


Thanks I just try not to step on others toes. By the way your posts often make me feel optimistic about humanity. A very rare thing for me to feel. More than anything I am here to heal from my wounds and reading posts like yours helps. Thank you for being a good person in a world where I have found very very few of those.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

CEL said:


> I don't usually post here as I just don't feel it is my place as I am not in reconciliation but when I see someone who through her messages I have grown to care about who needs a little support I thought I would go ahead and post. Mrs your H recently posted that he has seen real change in you and he has defended you against others on his thread. This does not seem like a person who is ready to throw in the towel and move on. In fact that entire thread started as a D thread the only thing that changed that was well YOU. What you did changed the course of that thread the actions you took the steps you went through. Your honesty and love and willingness to do whatever it took to try to build something out of the ashes. I think that Mr loves you wildly, completely and would do anything for you the problem is that as deep as that love is so is the betrayal and the betrayal feeds on that love without that love there would be no feelings of betrayal. Like the analogy of the white dog and the black dog whichever one you feed gets bigger. You have shown him love and I honestly think that his love for you is greater than his feelings of betrayal at this point without you around maybe all he can see is darkness.
> 
> I think this is NC temporary and will be soon to pass he has not brought up D again that I can see so I think he is committed to making this work. He also does not seem like the type to give up on something he has committed to and I think he has committed to R. Also please don't lose sight of the fact that he loves you and that you love him have faith in that love that it will endure these times. As for the whole he needs to move on as that would be better for him. If his heart is truly evenly divided and his mind has to make a decision then he will stay the pros and cons just line up way to much on the pro stay column, he is a smart cookie I am sure he already has done the numbers. Well that is my rambling post just want you know people care about you and are behind you.


Thank you so much CEL, and thank you for what you wrote on my husband's thread. I'm sorry you've faced so much darkness in your life, and grateful that our experiences have been a small part of you finding your way through it. I guess that's all anyone can really hope for in the world - to pass on a bit of experience, thought, or feeling that has an impact and allows someone to change for the better. Many, many people have been that for me. I'm humbled by your care and thoughts for us.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

CantSitStill said:


> Mrs. M. I am praying you get your rest tonight. Got you on my mind, I know how hard this is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks CSS, I really appreciate all your prayers, thoughts, and words of encouragement. I'm still awake (clearly) but hopefully I can sleep some tonight. Another long day of work tomorrow.


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## Wazza

Mrs M, thinking of you. Matt, if you read this, thinking of you too.

EI, Mrs Wazza just went thru something similar....in her case clear thank goodness. Thinking of you.


----------



## CantSitStill

One thing I have always loved is our talks. We just had a great talk about my mom and dad and about how I am lucky I have more of my dad's nice demeanor instead of my mother's mean cruel mouth. I love talking about how Calvin and I have the same values when it comes to how to raise children and teach them valuable lessons about how to treat others. Calvin is so perfect for me and I am for him. We really do make a good team . Now him and my son are getting flowers for our flower beds attached to the deck. I would have gone with but I have a very embarrassing cough right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Hey...Regret hit like on my poem. I was at a biker run where I performed a wedding ceremony which was the first one I've done since Dday. I'm getting in my car in 10 hours to drive almost 1300 miles solo for my interview.

It's a good day.

Regret liked my poem


----------



## CantSitStill

Awesome Dig. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> Hey...Regret hit like on my poem. I was at a biker run where I performed a wedding ceremony which was the first one I've done since Dday. I'm getting in my car in 10 hours to drive almost 1300 miles solo for my interview.
> 
> It's a good day.
> 
> Regret liked my poem


Glad she liked it 

Be safe in your travels !


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## SomedayDig

Thanks. This is a huge deal. As I've said, I am feeling the pressure of the interview on Thursday. I know I'll do fine, however that does not erase the butterflies in my stomach knowing how much this means for Regret's, mine, and our family's future.

My mind set is that it's mine to lose. I mean, who drives 1300 miles...is a kick ass dude, a good pilot and instructor that doesn't get the job 

They gotta want me.


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Thanks. This is a huge deal. As I've said, I am feeling the pressure of the interview on Thursday. I know I'll do fine, however that does not erase the butterflies in my stomach knowing how much this means for Regret's, mine, and our family's future.
> 
> My mind set is that it's mine to lose. I mean, who drives 1300 miles...is a kick ass dude, a good pilot and instructor that doesn't get the job
> 
> They gotta want me.


Excellent Dig! Good luck and be safe.
My Purple Maple wishes you luck also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

My sons mowing the lawn,me and CSS are going to plant the flowers me and my son picked up.
Then me and the boy will go do something manly.
We'll shoot the flowers.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Think they are gonna shoot the squirrels,oh I mean flowers. Beebee gun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CSS,its been a really rough year.Its getting better every day for us.Its almost unbelieveable how long this takes.
We are together still.We will be together next week,next month,next decade and for the rest of our lives.
Even then we will still be together and in love.
The hurt has subsided quite a bit,even though you caused the pain,you have worked hard to repair me and that is not an easy task.
I see a day soon where my hurt will be buried deep under your love.
The hurt might want to bubble to the surface but you know how to make it go away and not get too me for long,you hold it at bay.
Our lives are getting back to better than normal,I don't want the normal we had.
I want to keep going down the road we are on now,together holding hands.
I like where we are headed....we went to the brink and almost fell for good...almost don't count.
I love and want you and I know you feel the same.
Gotta love the underdog.
When the going gets tough,the tough get loving.
You're my girl,always and no one can change that.
You make me feel good,anything is possible with us together.



I did/did'nt mean to be sappy but its the way I feel people.

The flowers look good.I need to find out how to post pics from this phone,has to be a way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

calvin said:


> CSS,its been a really rough year.Its getting better every day for us.Its almost unbelieveable how long this takes.
> We are together still.We will be together next week,next month,next decade and for the rest of our lives.
> Even then we will still be together and in love.
> The hurt has subsided quite a bit,even though you caused the pain,you have worked hard to repair me and that is not an easy task.
> I see a day soon where my hurt will be buried deep under your love.
> The hurt might want to bubble to the surface but you know how to make it go away and not get too me for long,you hold it at bay.
> Our lives are getting back to better than normal,I don't want the normal we had.
> I want to keep going down the road we are on now,together holding hands.
> I like where we are headed....we went to the brink and almost fell for good...almost don't count.
> I love and want you and I know you feel the same.
> Gotta love the underdog.
> When the going gets tough,the tough get loving.
> You're my girl,always and no one can change that.
> You make me feel good,anything is possible with us together.
> 
> 
> 
> I did/did'nt mean to be sappy but its the way I feel people.
> 
> The flowers look good.I need to find out how to post pics from this phone,has to be a way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Oh my, my...... What lovely prose, Calvin!!!


----------



## EI

CEL said:


> Thanks I just try not to step on others toes. By the way your posts often make me feel optimistic about humanity. A very rare thing for me to feel. More than anything I am here to heal from my wounds and reading posts like yours helps. Thank you for being a good person in a world where I have found very very few of those.


Thank you, I'm truly humbled.....


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Thanks. This is a huge deal. As I've said, I am feeling the pressure of the interview on Thursday. I know I'll do fine, however that does not erase the butterflies in my stomach knowing how much this means for Regret's, mine, and our family's future.
> 
> My mind set is that it's mine to lose. I mean, who drives 1300 miles...is a kick ass dude, a good pilot and instructor that doesn't get the job
> 
> They gotta want me.



YOU GOT THIS, DIG!!! There's no doubt in my mind! 

BTW, I had this strange dream last night. :scratchhead: A gigantic tree came to me and told me that everything was going to be alright..... 

I gotta stop drinking the Kool Aid before bed!!!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> YOU GOT THIS, DIG!!! There's no doubt in my mind!
> 
> BTW, I had this strange dream last night. :scratchhead: A gigantic tree came to me and told me that everything was going to be alright.....
> 
> I gotta stop drinking the Kool Aid before bed!!!


Weird,me also,it was a Birch flying a 747 and singing.
I need to lay off my sons model glue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Wow Calvin . Look at how much we have progressed. I mean it, go back and read the first few pages on this thread and on ours. My passion for you lately has been through the roof! My love has always been there but now it feels so much stronger. We DO belong together, we really do. I mean, look at us 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Wow Calvin . Look at how much we have progressed. I mean it, go back and read the first few pages on this thread and on ours. My passion for you lately has been through the roof! My love has always been there but now it feels so much stronger. We DO belong together, we really do. I mean, look at us
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes,I feel like we are past the halfway point,I'm feeling more comfortable every week.
I'm almost sure now that this is going to work and be a good life.
Its hard to let go but holding on to you and tomorrow feels much better.
I will not miss out on the good times ahead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Well, Matt called me today and said I misunderstood his last text. He's not currently asking for No Contact, just that I not contact him while he is on his camping trip. He's trying to find some peace, and even when I send a positive message, it just makes him focus on the affair, so he'd rather I not communicate with him.

He's still really struggling. He just talked about some of the things that he is afraid he can't "get over". I wanted to listen and share my hope with him, but instead I had to go. I was running a performance tonight and the cast was waiting for a rehearsal that was supposed to have started 10 minutes earlier. He said he hoped I had a good show, and that I should just shove all this in my little compartmentalization box that I'm so good at. :/

I hate that I had to end the conversation, and it really makes me struggle with all the things that were said early on about my selfishness and my job coming first etc. How do you handle that? I mean, life still exists. Responsibilities, kids, expectations don't go away because you've nearly ruined your life and are desperately trying to find a way back. I got through the show tonight, but I just feel so awful about having to end that conversation when he actually called me. I want to always be able to listen for as long as he wants to share his thoughts and feelings with me.  I don't know what I should have done.


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## calvin

Good sign Mrs.M,a real good sign.
Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Mrs. M, you did all you could, stop worrying. Listen, giving him space is good. I've had to do it with Calvin many times and he would usually pick himself right back: up and let me know when he is feeling better. I bet that's the case with Matt. He will be ready to talk after he collects his thoughts and feels better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> By CSS
> Mrs. M, you did all you could, stop worrying. Listen, giving him space is good


Sounds like good advice to me.

Mrs. M, I do not know all the dynamics of you and Mr. M’s situation but I did read Mr. M’s post just a few days ago. Here is just a portion below:



> By Mr. M
> I'm going to follow the sound advice of dogman and step back again. I don't want to start picking at the scab too much when ultimately *I'm happy with how Mrs. M handled the situation*



I know you have read this but I just wanted to reprint it as that post clearly states that he was happy the way you handled a very delicate situation. I know it is hard for you to see the optimism that some of us see but try to focus on the positive. There sure was some real good positive in Mr. M’s post by the way I see it.

Mrs. M, you took a terrible beating on this forum last year and I probably added to that. What is important to note is that you are still here and making progress. *That tells me you are very serious about reconciliation. My hat is off to you*, I did not think that you would still be standing after last year’s hits you took. Congrats!


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## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

MrsM, I think you're doing just fine. Communicate the same way you do here, don't ignore possible triggers etc. Just say to him, I'm so sorry that I had to hang up, I would have liked to talk more but I couldn't, I feel bad about that.
I think that'll do. Its what I wish for myself from time to time. Hang in.


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## jh52

Mrs M - hour by hour, day by day, week by week.

Respect his wishes this week - just 5 days till Friday and you will see each other.

Sometimes when people call and talk - the other person may be in the middle of something and doesn't have the time to really get into a "deep" discussion.

This appears to be the case in this scenario - plus you read way too much into Matt not wanting NC - so please take a deep breath, relax and do what you need to do for the show.

Let Matt enjoy his time camping - I may be wrong but you both may have needed this little break - my guess is that Matt misses you ( good) and as far as I can tell I think you miss Matt as well .

Friday will be here before you know it. Enjoy your Sunday.


----------



## margrace

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well, Matt called me today and said I misunderstood his last text. He's not currently asking for No Contact, just that I not contact him while he is on his camping trip. He's trying to find some peace, and even when I send a positive message, it just makes him focus on the affair, so he'd rather I not communicate with him.
> 
> He's still really struggling. He just talked about some of the things that he is afraid he can't "get over". I wanted to listen and share my hope with him, but instead I had to go. I was running a performance tonight and the cast was waiting for a rehearsal that was supposed to have started 10 minutes earlier. He said he hoped I had a good show, and that I should just shove all this in my little compartmentalization box that I'm so good at. :/
> 
> I hate that I had to end the conversation, and it really makes me struggle with all the things that were said early on about my selfishness and my job coming first etc. How do you handle that? I mean, life still exists. Responsibilities, kids, expectations don't go away because you've nearly ruined your life and are desperately trying to find a way back. I got through the show tonight, but I just feel so awful about having to end that conversation when he actually called me. I want to always be able to listen for as long as he wants to share his thoughts and feelings with me.  I don't know what I should have done.


*
mrs. m*, from my perspective as a BS, you are doing everything possible and then some! which is not to say that i don't understand matt's feelings -- i do. as *calvin and css* have described, i often feel the worst (most hurt/angry/mistrustful) after things have been going great and my guard is down.

*soulpotato* put this well -- when WSs like him and like you are committed to being loving, trustworthy partners forever, then time is our friend! time will show us that we can trust the good times as they occur... that they are the new normal 

a little update about my R: it's going well y'all! better and better and better. i am so thankful to every single one of you for your contributions along the way.

it's really something to be able to say that, isn't it, on the very same thread where you were writing about things being so unbelievably awful not so long ago? lurkers, take heart


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## daisygirl 41

Margrace
Lovely to have a positive update from you. So glad things are moving forward.
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

calvin said:


> I see a day soon where my hurt will be buried deep under your love.



That was a great post man. So happy for you guys.


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well, Matt called me today and said I misunderstood his last text. He's not currently asking for No Contact, just that I not contact him while he is on his camping trip. He's trying to find some peace, and even when I send a positive message, it just makes him focus on the affair, so he'd rather I not communicate with him.


Great news. Assist him in his healing by respecting him.



> He's still really struggling. He just talked about some of the things that he is afraid he can't "get over". I wanted to listen and share my hope with him, but instead I had to go. I was running a performance tonight and the cast was waiting for a rehearsal that was supposed to have started 10 minutes earlier. He said he hoped I had a good show, and that I should just shove all this in my little compartmentalization box that I'm so good at. :/
> I hate that I had to end the conversation, and it really makes me struggle with all the things that were said early on about my selfishness and my job coming first etc. How do you handle that? I mean, life still exists. Responsibilities, kids, expectations don't go away because you've nearly ruined your life and are desperately trying to find a way back. I got through the show tonight, but I just feel so awful about having to end that conversation when he actually called me. I want to always be able to listen for as long as he wants to share his thoughts and feelings with me.  I don't know what I should have done.


Sometimes you will get catch 22 like situations like this. I suspect he will understand and he cool off.
You will get some venom once in a while. If he were close you squeeze his hand and look at his eyes. You suck it, you see the pain behind it. That simple. 

He's there, commited still.
Maybe you can spare a moment here and there to write down your thoughts while he's away so he realizes you are not "compartmentalizing" his absence, that he's in your mind everytime.

Hang tough Mrs.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Calvin - awesome post man! I can hear you and CSS healing in the words you post so clearly the last few days. And you are so right, the hurt will be buried deep beneath her love for you. Always there, but not anywhere near the surface. You will begin to go weeks and months without the triggers and anxiety, because the love you guys share WILL be at the surface. And THAT'S what you will be feeling and experiencing daily. So happy for you guys.

Margrace - awesome news on your R as well. Keep focused and keep pushing. You guys are making real progress now. There will be the occasional setback, but that's ok. Your trend line is what is important.

Mrs M - hang in there, and don't be so hard on yourself! I will admit I was a skeptic of yours when you first began posting. Your initial posts were still from the fog, and focused on you. But you have come so far in the months since. And Matt is seeing this too. And here's the secret - that scares the pi$$ out of him. He is starting to see a possible future together, wanting to let his guard down etc. And as a BS, it is really a frightening proposition. Any form of vulnerability with a FWS is terrifying at first. And he may not even be fully aware of this tension within him. But he will be.

This is what Calvin, Margrace, myself and others have talked about. The constant cycle of some good days followed by the freak out. The key is that he has to come to understand the cycle and what is motivating it on his own. THAT is the moment of enlightenment and empowerment for a BS. Give him time, keep doing what you are doing. 

I am sitting outside with a cigar and a glass of Blanton's bourbon in my recurring period of reflection. Life is good, my friends. Keep believing and keep working!


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## CantSitStill

So true NEVER, so how is everyone's Sunday going? It is true that right when the BS feels ready to move forward, it scares the heck outa them because it means they are trusting their spouse which means in the back of their head they are so afraid of getting hurt all over again. It is so hard to make that leap of faith. I am very sad and feel horrible that I broke his spirit like that. I mean, he still feels this need to cry in private. I'm not giving him crap for it anymore because it is something he needs to feel ready for, and he will. We will be ok, we are ok and we are healing more and more every day. He knows I love him. He no longer questions that because he can see and feel it. He feels how genuine my love is for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I hate that I had to end the conversation, and it really makes me struggle with all the things that were said early on about my selfishness and my job coming first etc. How do you handle that? I mean, life still exists. Responsibilities, kids, expectations don't go away because you've nearly ruined your life and are desperately trying to find a way back. I got through the show tonight, but I just feel so awful about having to end that conversation when he actually called me. I want to always be able to listen for as long as he wants to share his thoughts and feelings with me.  I don't know what I should have done.


Mrs Wazza and I struggle with that. 

What have you cut back to make more time for him? Have you discussed the things you have cut? How does he feel about it? How much input to the decisions did he get?

I figure if he is on board with the decisions you are making then he will understand the implications of them. I think that is especially important in a field like the arts, where a high level of commitment and long, often strange, hours are required. 

Can you find a weekend or two where you can clear your diary and just do stuff together? How often do you allocate a day just to hang out and date?

Sorry, I know this is all obvious stuff. But worth recapping as it relates directly to your question.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I just want to sleep.  On top of the stress of Matt's triggering and being gone and just not even falling asleep from that, I'm back to having nightmares about the NC parties when I do sleep. I have a NC plan. It's a good one. It's been tested and I followed it. Why can't my brain/subconscious believe that?

I'm just so tired.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Praying for you and Matt Mrs. M
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thanks Calvin. I really appreciate it. You're probably already working for the day, so I shouldn't complain. Hope it's a good on for you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thanks Cslvin. I really appreciate it. You're probably already working for the day, so I shouldn't complain. Hope it's a good on for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Mrs.M,
Give Matt some time,he's all over the place like I was,hopefully soon he will start coming around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Morning Calvin -- have a good Monday

MRs M -- please try and rest --- you are sleeping for two now.

Both take care -- and be safe --- 4 days till Friday.


----------



## margrace

jh52 said:


> Morning Calvin -- have a good Monday
> 
> MRs M -- please try and rest --- you are sleeping for two now.
> 
> Both take care -- and be safe --- 4 days till Friday.


:iagree:

and the same to you, jh! AND the same to hopefulgirl, soulpotato, daisygirl, cpacan, stargazer, css, robsia, and all of us who are deep in the R trenches 

AND the same to the ones who are maybe a bit further down the road -- B1 and EI, acabado, mr. b, TCSR, dig and regret, bfree, wazza, HM, neverhappen... 

AND the same to you, if you are reading this and have never/rarely posted, but are looking for signposts and support. i know you're out there 

it gives me hope when i come across little snippets like this one from neverhappen:



> I am sitting outside with a cigar and a glass of Blanton's bourbon in my recurring period of reflection. Life is good, my friends. Keep believing and keep working!


*question for everyone:* if you have been in R long enough to experience some significant amount of healing (however _you_ define that), when did you get to the point that you don't think about it every day (if you have gotten there)? in what other ways has your healing been visible in your life and in your marriage, and how long did it take for those points to be reached?


----------



## SomedayDig

Ahhhh...Blanton's. What a terrific bourbon.

I am not far into it, 14 months, however I can say that there are many times that I don't think about Regret's affair. 

We talk so much more openly and honestly now. An example is, last week, Regret just looked stressed. She didn't really open up immediately to me. Then...she actually kind of got snippy. I just smiled and looked at her and asked what was really wrong. Total 180 on her part. Her shoulders slumped and she said (paraphrasing), "Oh, my God...I can't believe I just put my feelings on you and started to blame you." Again, I just smiled and told her we can't change our reactions instantly. This move is a HUGE deal. It's literally life changing and the first real hurdle we've had since Dday. Before, she would never have seen what she was doing and I wouldn't have caught on til it was too late. Like 5 years too late...


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Ugh. The universe has a funny sense if humor. Now I just got a spam email from a Netherlands address sent to my work account under the name of the NC party that sent last week's letter. Of all the odds... this sucks. If something one in a million is going to happen to me, why couldn't I have won the lottery instead? Oh yeah. I don't buy a ticket.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Definitely an 'ugh' moment.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Yep. I forwarded it to Matt immediately on his camping trip as part of my NC plan and he says he often wonders if there is a universal power that wants us to part ways. It seems that way to him right now. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

It would seem that way sometimes but it's the normal ebb and flow of this process. 

How's it going? How are you feeling MrsM?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

TCSRedhead said:


> It would seem that way sometimes but it's the normal ebb and flow of this process.
> 
> How's it going? How are you feeling MrsM?


Physically, the pregnancy is going fine. I'm worn this week, from all the long days on my last gig and not enough rest. I'll be ok. Thanks for asking.


----------



## Wazza

margrace said:


> :iagree:
> 
> and the same to you, jh! AND the same to hopefulgirl, soulpotato, daisygirl, cpacan, stargazer, css, robsia, and all of us who are deep in the R trenches
> 
> AND the same to the ones who are maybe a bit further down the road -- B1 and EI, acabado, mr. b, TCSR, dig and regret, bfree, wazza, HM, neverhappen...
> 
> AND the same to you, if you are reading this and have never/rarely posted, but are looking for signposts and support. i know you're out there
> 
> it gives me hope when i come across little snippets like this one from neverhappen:
> 
> *question for everyone:* if you have been in R long enough to experience some significant amount of healing (however _you_ define that), when did you get to the point that you don't think about it every day (if you have gotten there)? in what other ways has your healing been visible in your life and in your marriage, and how long did it take for those points to be reached?


I didn't think about it every day before i started posting on TAM and thoughts of it are mostly not painful. I'm usually quite detached from it. Still have mind movies occasionally, still trigger occasionally.

But I have a moody side and I sometimes think I need something to be upset at.  So when I allow myself to be a misery guts, yeah I think about it.

In general the couples here seem to be following a much healthier path than I did, and I think they will heal quicker. I had no resources. While I didn't start posting on TAM looking for help, I certainly wanted to understand more about how affairs work. So from that point if view I still had an unmet need...which again all of you are doing better at than me because you are here.

For example, Mrs M's current situation with Matt. It took us years to have those sorts of conversations. I know it's not fun but I wish we had got there quicker. Very definitely part of the healing process IMO.


----------



## Robsia

*waves*

Hey - remember me?

I've had a rough few days. Will post details in my D-day 2 thread in a bit but today we had a real breakthrough.

You were right, we were in a false R - there were things he had kept from me, and things he was lying about, not least of which was another PA after the first and a continued contact with an OW he had met on one of the dating sites, although he says and she confirmed there was no sex, but she did send him pics of her boobs one night last week when she was drunk. I have put a stop to that. I've told him he should have told me there was still contact with one of them, even if he felt they were 'just friends'. I told him my friends don't send me pics of their intimate parts.

I actually spoke to her. I think she was quite smitten. Even after I told her he had two affairs, she still defended him, saying that she hoped we would work it out, that he was "worth it" and that he was a complete gentleman with her. He says it was because she was ten years older than him and he didn't fancy her.

Everything that my gut told me was a lie so far turned out to BE a lie. But now I finally feel as if we are getting close to the truth.

His demeanour today has been so totally different to what it was before. He is no longer resisting me, he says he will read the book, ask for advice on here, do whatever it takes. I think he finally realises how badly he has messed up.

So, he says he is going to post on here, but he needs to make sure he gets it 'right' whatever that means. I've told him to tell you all that he is my WH so if some bloke posts a thread saying he is Robsia's WH, can you wise folk PLEASE chip in. He needs your advice. He needs to know what to do next. If I'm still awake when he posts I'll put a link to his thread on here.

We need you.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Yep. I forwarded it to Matt immediately on his camping trip as part of my NC plan and he says he often wonders if there is a universal power that wants us to part ways. It seems that way to him right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I believe the Universe is testing you.....and you're passing.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia - my heart goes out to you. You're feeling closer to the truth, he's saying he WANTS to make this work. What is stopping him from telling you everything and being done with it?


----------



## Robsia

^Well, I'm hoping he has. I guess what I meant was I'll never know for sure, but what he told me today did have the scent of truth about it rather than the stink of bullsh!t.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> *waves*
> 
> Hey - remember me?
> 
> I've had a rough few days. Will post details in my D-day 2 thread in a bit but today we had a real breakthrough.
> 
> You were right, we were in a false R - there were things he had kept from me, and things he was lying about, not least of which was another PA after the first and a continued contact with an OW he had met on one of the dating sites, although he says and she confirmed there was no sex, but she did send him pics of her boobs one night last week when she was drunk. I have put a stop to that. I've told him he should have told me there was still contact with one of them, even if he felt they were 'just friends'. I told him my friends don't send me pics of their intimate parts.
> 
> I actually spoke to her. I think she was quite smitten. Even after I told her he had two affairs, she still defended him, saying that she hoped we would work it out, that he was "worth it" and that he was a complete gentleman with her. He says it was because she was ten years older than him and he didn't fancy her.
> 
> Everything that my gut told me was a lie so far turned out to BE a lie. But now I finally feel as if we are getting close to the truth.
> 
> His demeanour today has been so totally different to what it was before. He is no longer resisting me, he says he will read the book, ask for advice on here, do whatever it takes. I think he finally realises how badly he has messed up.
> 
> So, he says he is going to post on here, but he needs to make sure he gets it 'right' whatever that means. I've told him to tell you all that he is my WH so if some bloke posts a thread saying he is Robsia's WH, can you wise folk PLEASE chip in. He needs your advice. He needs to know what to do next. If I'm still awake when he posts I'll put a link to his thread on here.
> 
> We need you.


Hopefully the truth is all out there now. It is often stated that R can not proceed until the full truth is known. This is of course true but most of the time the assumption is that it is for the BS. And to a great extent it is. But what is not usually talked about is that the WS cannot really begin to feel the remorse and start to atone until the weight of all the lies is gone. If they are busy trying to conceal the truth they don't have the capability to truly process what is needed from them in R. I really hope this is the start of something positive for both of you. If your WH is planning on posting maybe he should get his feet wet by posting in this thread. You've been on TAM for a bit now and you know how vicious some of the people here can be sometimes.


----------



## TCSRedhead

By all means, have him come to TAM. We'll be as helpful as possible.


----------



## BIGMAC2020

Hi all,

I am Robsia's WH and she has told me that you folks would be able to help me in trying to put right what I have done wrong. I understand that I will not be liked and that my actions have been that of a complete idiot that doesn't deserve another chance. But those decisions are for us to make. I just want guidance on how I can make this right and take us back to where we were before my betrayal if that is at all possible.
I am aware of the things I have done wrong, what I need is the things I can now do right to help with the healing process.
Thank you in advance.


----------



## lookingforsupport

BIGMAC2020 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am Robsia's WH and she has told me that you folks would be able to help me in trying to put right what I have done wrong. I understand that I will not be liked and that my actions have been that of a complete idiot that doesn't deserve another chance. But those decisions are for us to make. I just want guidance on how I can make this right and take us back to where we were before my betrayal if that is at all possible.
> I am aware of the things I have done wrong, what I need is the things I can now do right to help with the healing process.
> Thank you in advance.


Be brave. Look her in the eye and answer every question. Do it again. And again. And take the time to experience your feelings of remorse for what they are. Be honest with yourself as well as her - she deserves it. You will feel worthless at times, but if you are really making an effort to confront your actions you are a flawed human being trying to improve, like so many others.

And do the things that show her you care for her. Cook, clean, plan, whatever you can do to help her feel like she has space to grieve.


----------



## calvin

BIGMAC2020 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am Robsia's WH and she has told me that you folks would be able to help me in trying to put right what I have done wrong. I understand that I will not be liked and that my actions have been that of a complete idiot that doesn't deserve another chance. But those decisions are for us to make. I just want guidance on how I can make this right and take us back to where we were before my betrayal if that is at all possible.
> I am aware of the things I have done wrong, what I need is the things I can now do right to help with the healing process.
> Thank you in advance.


Howdy BigMack.
Well,you have taken a big first step by coming here,that's good.
I really don't think you'll get beat up on this thread,every one here has been through pain.
Be it WS or BS.I feel you'll find a good understanding here and a lot of experienced people who can help.
Welcome to B1 and EI's thread.
Hang tight and don't worry about getting beat up,you might get some tough love though.
I'm a BS and my wife is CSS ( can't sit still )
We are 15 months into our R and its hard but also looking good for us.
Glad you made it man!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

BIGMAC2020 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am Robsia's WH and she has told me that you folks would be able to help me in trying to put right what I have done wrong. I understand that I will not be liked and that my actions have been that of a complete idiot that doesn't deserve another chance. But those decisions are for us to make. I just want guidance on how I can make this right and take us back to where we were before my betrayal if that is at all possible.
> I am aware of the things I have done wrong, what I need is the things I can now do right to help with the healing process.
> Thank you in advance.


Hi Mac - first thing you can do to help you both is to tell her everything. Each time she discovers something new (even if it's insignificant), it's like starting ALL over again. 

Answer honestly, calmly and realize she has to know to understand and to ever be able to forgive. After all, you can't forgive what you don't know and don't understand.

Also, this is a hard thing to do but you need to figure out WHY this happened and what YOU are going to do to ensure it NEVER happens again.


----------



## EI

BIGMAC2020 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am Robsia's WH and she has told me that you folks would be able to help me in trying to put right what I have done wrong. I understand that I will not be liked and that my actions have been that of a complete idiot that doesn't deserve another chance. But those decisions are for us to make. I just want guidance on how I can make this right and take us back to where we were before my betrayal if that is at all possible.
> I am aware of the things I have done wrong, what I need is the things I can now do right to help with the healing process.
> Thank you in advance.


B1 and I are taking a small vacation (a real one..... out of town.) I think that posting here can be a step in the right direction if that is truly what you're looking for. I hope that it is. Lots of hard earned wisdom is available from the individuals who post on this thread.

I promised myself that I'd stay off the threads until we got back home. But, I wanted to welcome you here. Hopefully, some of the regulars are checking in and will soon chime in with their thoughts.

~EI


----------



## BIGMAC2020

Hi LFS,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. We have spoken briefly but sadly we don't live together so it makes it harder to deal with day to day.
I want to make things right for us and to let her know how sorry I am for the pain and distress I have caused by my selfish actions.


----------



## B1

Bigmac...
You have handed your wife a 1000 piece puzzle and she is desperately trying to put it together but she has no picture to go by, you are the only one who knows what the puzzle looks like. Help her put it together.

A week from now, a month from now, you don't say oh, I'm sorry honey it was really a 1,500 piece puzzle. I didn't mention those other 500 pieces earlier.


----------



## bfree

Mac,

Remember that the trust was destroyed. Therefore everything else hinges on how well you can rebuild the broken trust. Its not going to be an overnight process. It takes time and effort and it starts with 100% truth and transparency. Your life needs to be an open book and you need to make sure that everything between you and Robsia is complete and utter truth. She will trigger and she will asks questions. She will ask the same questions over and over and over. You need to answer them calmly and truthfully and understand that she is not asking them to hurt you or because she doesn't necessarily believe you. She is asking because this is a lot to take in. She asks questions because she is trying to wrap her mind around what happened. So you need to have lots of patience while she works through her thoughts and feelings.


----------



## BIGMAC2020

Hi folks,

Thank you for the welcome, it is much appreciated. I just want to make things right but I don't know where to start. I have betrayed the woman I love and hurt her badly as she trusted me implicitly.
I have tried to examine why I have done what I did and I don't have a definitive answer yet. I am going for counselling for my anger and my BS is also starting hers. We will be starting MC in the next 2 weeks as well.
These things will be helpful I am hoping but sometimes there is nothing better than real experience.


----------



## bfree

BIGMAC2020 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Thank you for the welcome, it is much appreciated. I just want to make things right but I don't know where to start. I have betrayed the woman I love and hurt her badly as she trusted me implicitly.
> I have tried to examine why I have done what I did and I don't have a definitive answer yet. I am going for counselling for my anger and my BS is also starting hers. We will be starting MC in the next 2 weeks as well.
> These things will be helpful I am hoping but sometimes there is nothing better than real experience.


Remember that actions speak louder than words. What are you doing to find the answers surrounding your affair? Be truthful with yourself. You need to be able to look in the mirror and see yourself for who you truly are. Calvin talked a while ago about masks that we wear. We even wear masks when we look at ourselves. You need to remove the mask and see the truth. See the flaws and work to overcome them but also see the good and work to build on it. When Robsia sees you working to be a better person then maybe she will start to believe that you are serious about atoning for the damage you've caused.


----------



## calvin

Bfree has sound advice Mac,so does B1,EI,Red,dg, Matt Matt...I can't name them all,they are all pretty good.

They helped me out big time,or I should say us.CSS and I both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> You need to be able to look in the mirror and see yourself for who you truly are. Calvin talked a while ago about masks that we wear. We even wear masks when we look at ourselves. You need to remove the mask and see the truth.


:iagree: How true!! Boy is that tough! But when you aren't true to yourself, you can't really be true to anyone else...


----------



## CantSitStill

Let her 
Know everywhere you are going and everything you are doing. Make sure she has all of your passwords, show her your phone when you are with her. Yes the questions and her bringing up the affair sucks but don't get defensive. Be patient and always remind her why you love her. Now I'm in the mood for a bigmac, should have my daughter get me one, she works at McDonalds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I have found through reconciliation ,. I have learned to speak up when something is on my mind. I no longer hold in resentment or walk out the door to avoid conflict. It's very hard to do but it's time to deal with reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BIGMAC2020

CantSitStill said:


> Let her
> Know everywhere you are going and everything you are doing. Make sure she has all of your passwords, show her your phone when you are with her. Yes the questions and her bringing up the affair sucks but don't get defensive. Be patient and always remind her why you love her. Now I'm in the mood for a bigmac, should have my daughter get me one, she works at McDonalds.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ty CSS, I have been doing this since she originally found out. I have find my friends active on my phone so she knows where I am all the time and I do tell her where I am going.

It will be a long road and I know that and I want to do my best to prove that I am worth her consideration.


----------



## CantSitStill

Keep it up Mac, it would be easier if you lived in the same home, but hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

You know you spend too much time on TAM and talking about TAM when you're on vacation..... 300 miles from home..... and your 23 y/o special needs son says, out of the blue, at dinner, "Does Calvin even know who I am?" True story...... SMH :rofl:


----------



## SomedayDig

Wow.

You guys are MUCH smaller in real life.


----------



## soulpotato

That is an adorable picture, EI! (The anecdote, too!) Thank you for sharing!


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> I have found through reconciliation ,. I have learned to speak up when something is on my mind. I no longer hold in resentment or walk out the door to avoid conflict. It's very hard to do but it's time to deal with reality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm still trying to get to that point of open communication. I still tend to get a negative response from GF if it's something emotional.  Even if I try to wait for a "good" time, it's like there's no such thing.


----------



## MrMathias

Wazza said:


> For example, Mrs M's current situation with Matt. It took us years to have those sorts of conversations. I know it's not fun but I wish we had got there quicker. Very definitely part of the healing process IMO.


It's very sad, but from my end the many conversations we've had in the last several months aren't that different than what we had pre affair (although they weren't as often). It was no stretch at all for me. I constantly ask myself why I stuck around after DDay1 to talk, to find out why. We had so many conversations during FalseR... I really truly thought we were communicating... But I could sense her detachment and loss she felt. I can't even count how many times I asked 'What would you have done if it hasn't ended when it did? What if CJ contacted you?" The answer: "I have too many negative thoughts wrapped up with him now, I don't know." She was sleeping with him. 
For the last year and a half, MrsM's 'best friend' and 'person she shared her primary thoughts with' was her 21 year old protege. I tried my ass off to communicate with her. Everyone, except cheaters, know the golden rule of marriage which is 'communicate'. 

The public speaking teacher at my school has a quote on her wall:

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

And, one more............ Tomorrow morning it's breakfast at The Pancake Pantry, a little shopping at the Outlet Mall, then home........ We left our 18 and 20 y/o boys at home....... I hope the house is still standing when we get there!!! 

On a side note: Just to keep things real in my life..... Just in case I was thinking that my "luck" was about to change for the better.... My 18 y/o called this morning to let me know that he had overslept for school and had missed his math final..... First time I have ever, in my life, left any of the kids on their own without an adult there with them.... I guess I thought that since they ARE ADULTS that it would be okay!!! 

ETA: New Year's Eve.....2009 the boys stayed home w/o us for one night! Just remembered....


----------



## CantSitStill

Lol EI of course Calvin knows JoJo, I just told him how you are on vacation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

MrMathias said:


> It's very sad, but from my end the many conversations we've had in the last several months aren't that different than what we had pre affair (although they weren't as often). It was no stretch at all for me. I constantly ask myself why I stuck around after DDay1 to talk, to find out why. We had so many conversations during FalseR... I really truly thought we were communicating... But I could sense her detachment and loss she felt. I can't even count how many times I asked 'What would you have done if it hasn't ended when it did? What if CJ contacted you?" The answer: "I have too many negative thoughts wrapped up with him now, I don't know." She was sleeping with him.
> For the last year and a half, MrsM's 'best friend' and 'person she shared her primary thoughts with' was her 21 year old protege. I tried my ass off to communicate with her. Everyone, except cheaters, know the golden rule of marriage which is 'communicate'.
> 
> The public speaking teacher at my school has a quote on her wall:
> 
> "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are they different from her side too? Genuine question, not rhetorical.

We had big fights during and immediately after the affair, then when I decided I was staying for the kids but believing Mrs Wazza hated me, I stopped trying. From her side, she hates confrontation, and thought she would've believed, so she shut down.

We could not have had some of the conversations you have reported here. Just what you have written in the post I am quoting, which she will read, we could not have exchanged.

For me, to me honest (and sorry Mrs M) I would never 100% trust her again after something like that. I don't trust my wife 100%. But I wouldn't trust anyone else 100% either. 

If it is a choice between living alone and taking a risk...which do you choose?


----------



## Robsia

I woke this morning with that sick feeling back again – the one that I had every day 24/7 for four weeks after D-day 1. I am slowly processing the reality that BigMac had called time on our marriage last summer and has basically been acting like a single man ever since.

See, those of you who have read my D-day thread will have read this, but I’ll say it here, in case. I didn’t share this before as I didn’t want a slew of “Well what did you expect?” type comments, but – I left him last summer. I packed up and moved out with my two children. I was going to divorce him on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour.

He asked me to reconsider if he got help for his anger problems. He said we could continue our relationship but in separate houses, like when we were dating. At first I thought this was an insane idea. How can you have a marriage in two separate houses. But the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. We had got along fine mostly before we moved in together. That was when the problems had started. He was tempting me with the only thing that could have possibly induced me to not divorce him – the promise of our relationship the way it was, the loving, wonderful, kind husband I fell in love with, without the increasingly frequent presence of his Mr Nasty doppelganger and also I got to have my own space and be in charge!

What could be better for a woman used to running her own affairs?

So I agreed. I moved out. It was wonderful, having my own space again, not having to lock horns with Mr Nasty every time we disagreed on something. This part-time marriage lark was great. But we did have a conversation in which we outlined our expectations. I wanted fidelity – I made that absolutely clear.

We might not be living together, but we were still married, and we were still in a marital relationship, with all that implies.

He agreed, but then proceeded to totally ignore what we had said and begin his illicit activities. And I made it possible.

Most WSs have to sneak around behind their spouses’ backs. BigMac was free to join dating sites, spend all night sending messages to whomever he chose, going out evenings when we didn’t have things planned, he even brought one of them back to the house, and f*cked her in OUR bed, in our bedroom that we had planned and decorated together. She probably watched herself in front of the full-length wall to wall mirrored wardrobes I had chosen, while my wedding dress hung behind the wardrobe doors.

He was a single man, with a wife on the side to f*ck whenever he chose. 

Me, I was happily enjoying having everything my own way, my own house, my part-time husband who came round often enough – but not too often. I wasn't looking for anyone else. I didn’t want anyone else. I was still in love with him. I just didn’t want him all the time.


So now here we are. He’s been living the single life since last August. Two PAs that I know of, numerous dates, an ongoing contact even while we were in R – all the time still having sex with me. I feel sick, devastated, used, violated, utterly destroyed.

From the outside, it’s simple. We should divorce. We had major issues in our marriage that we never dealt with, just ran away from. He has cheated on me numerous times, totally disregarding the trust I had in him. And yet…and yet, that tie that binds is so strong. I still love him. What we had was so good once upon a time. The only thing that keeps me going is the possibility of having it again. Is it too late? Was it real? In my D-day 2 thread someone said I was hanging onto a mirage of the man I thought he was. I don’t want it to be a mirage. I want it to be real.

Three questions remain:

1)	Can I ever actually get over this? Can I ever forgive him?
2)	What guarantee do I have that this will not now become his default behaviour? Once that line has been crossed once, it’s very easy to cross it again, and again.
3)	Is the man that I fell in love with still there? Was he ever real?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Wazza said:


> Are they different from her side too? Genuine question, not rhetorical.
> 
> We had big fights during and immediately after the affair, then when I decided I was staying for the kids but believing Mrs Wazza hated me, I stopped trying. From her side, she hates confrontation, and thought she would've believed, so she shut down.
> 
> We could not have had some of the conversations you have reported here. Just what you have written in the post I am quoting, which she will read, we could not have exchanged.
> 
> For me, to me honest (and sorry Mrs M) I would never 100% trust her again after something like that. I don't trust my wife 100%. But I wouldn't trust anyone else 100% either.
> 
> If it is a choice between living alone and taking a risk...which do you choose?


I'm not a trustworthy person. The lies I told are slowly eating Matt alive. I can take every step toward R, do all the work, have plans in place to protect us from me going down that path again but it makes no difference when ultimately, this could all be one big lie again in his perception. I hate it and I made it reality for us.

Conversations are different on my end because not only am I being honest with him, I've stopped censoring things I think will hurt or he won't like. I try to speak considerately, but I speak. Idk. I sometimes feel even in spite all our conversation, Matt is an incredibly difficult person to "know" and it's really hard to keep my own brain from projecting my inner negativities and insecurities into the blanks left. So in the past, I assumed the worst and shut own more, leaving more blanks for my brain to fill. It was a horrible cycle. And now, he feels like I'm a total stranger all the time. No matter what I do, what thoughts and feelings I offer, I can't bridge that basic problem. And I've clearly proven through my lies and betrayal that I'm not a person most sane people would want to know.

It's 4 am and I'm rambling. I'm sure I'll wish I was clearer later.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not a trustworthy person. The lies I told are slowly eating Matt alive. I can take every step toward R, do all the work, have plans in place to protect us from me going down that path again but it makes no difference when ultimately, this could all be one big lie again in his perception. I hate it and I made it reality for us.
> 
> Conversations are different on my end because not only am I being honest with him, I've stopped censoring things I think will hurt or he won't like. I try to speak considerately, but I speak. Idk. I sometimes feel even in spite all our conversation, Matt is an incredibly difficult person to "know" and it's really hard to keep my own brain from projecting my inner negativities and insecurities into the blanks left. So in the past, I assumed the worst and shut own more, leaving more blanks for my brain to fill. It was a horrible cycle. And now, he feels like I'm a total stranger all the time. No matter what I do, what thoughts and feelings I offer, I can't bridge that basic problem. And I've clearly proven through my lies and betrayal that I'm not a person most sane people would want to know.
> 
> It's 4 am and I'm rambling. I'm sure I'll wish I was clearer later.


You do have a tendency to be very hard on yourself. Not defending what you did, but it's not like you are devoid of good just because you did a bad thing.

The longer you stay straight the better it will get for Matt if he sticks it out. Hang in there.


----------



## russell28

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not a trustworthy person. The lies I told are slowly eating Matt alive. I can take every step toward R, do all the work, have plans in place to protect us from me going down that path again but it makes no difference when ultimately, this could all be one big lie again in his perception. I hate it and I made it reality for us.
> 
> Conversations are different on my end because not only am I being honest with him, I've stopped censoring things I think will hurt or he won't like. I try to speak considerately, but I speak. Idk. I sometimes feel even in spite all our conversation, Matt is an incredibly difficult person to "know" and it's really hard to keep my own brain from projecting my inner negativities and insecurities into the blanks left. So in the past, I assumed the worst and shut own more, leaving more blanks for my brain to fill. It was a horrible cycle. And now, he feels like I'm a total stranger all the time. No matter what I do, what thoughts and feelings I offer, I can't bridge that basic problem. And I've clearly proven through my lies and betrayal that I'm not a person most sane people would want to know.
> 
> It's 4 am and I'm rambling. I'm sure I'll wish I was clearer later.


To keep me sane, I like to think of the "A" as one big lie.. I don't want to get hung up on each individual lie. A big part of an affair is the lies that fuel it.. I can't go back over the past half decade and say 'on this day, did you really go to x with y?' anymore... It's just too much to take in and hurts too bad.. too many betrayals for so long to torture myself with. I decided that if I was going to forgive, I needed to manage those thoughts and not get hung up on details (once I got enough details to realize she was finally telling truths). Another lie, was the fact that I had no idea my wife was hurting or feeling so low.. I had no idea she wasn't happy... She kept those feelings inside, and eventually told them to another man. I need her to tell me how she feels.. how she hurts... the more she shares that kind of information with me, the more I believe her motivations are sincere.


----------



## EI

I'm blessed that B1 loves me so much that he thinks about the little things that make my life simpler....... Like ordering a "value pak" of iPhone chargers and styluses and remembering to bring an extension cord on vacation. It's not just the big things that make me love him. It's the many, many little things that he does everyday. 

I love you so much, B1!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia - we CAN overcome anything IF both parties are WILLING to do what it takes to get there. 

That's the big question at hand. Do you both WANT to make it work? Is Mac willing to do what it takes to EARN your trust again? Having to discover all this extra stuff after D Day 2 on your own is not a step in the right direction.

Everything needs to come out now so you can understand what has happened in order to begin the healing process. The decision to R or D - well, I think it takes a little more time to get there.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not a trustworthy person. The lies I told are slowly eating Matt alive. I can take every step toward R, do all the work, have plans in place to protect us from me going down that path again but it makes no difference when ultimately, this could all be one big lie again in his perception. I hate it and I made it reality for us.
> 
> Conversations are different on my end because not only am I being honest with him, I've stopped censoring things I think will hurt or he won't like. I try to speak considerately, but I speak. Idk. I sometimes feel even in spite all our conversation, Matt is an incredibly difficult person to "know" and it's really hard to keep my own brain from projecting my inner negativities and insecurities into the blanks left. So in the past, I assumed the worst and shut own more, leaving more blanks for my brain to fill. It was a horrible cycle. And now, he feels like I'm a total stranger all the time. No matter what I do, what thoughts and feelings I offer, I can't bridge that basic problem. And I've clearly proven through my lies and betrayal that I'm not a person most sane people would want to know.
> 
> It's 4 am and I'm rambling. I'm sure I'll wish I was clearer later.


Correction....you weren't a trustworthy person. Are you are trustworthy person today? The deception will bother Matt for quite a while but guess what? Its going to bother him whether you are together or apart. What has happened has happened and there is no going back. You can't change the past but you can work in the present and guide the future. And you really aren't giving Matt enough credit. I remember his thread. Even during your false R Matt sensed something was not quite right. I'm sure like all of us that have been betrayed Matt feels stupid for not seeing it earlier. But he did see it his mind just wouldn't let him accept it. There's a difference. Same thing with the false R. He knew it but really wanted to believe it was real. Now you are in a real R. Will it work? No way to know for sure but one thing I can tell you. If you continue to be a trustworthy person both of you will know that this is real and true. Notice that Matt no longer wonders if you are still having an affair. I also doubt he believes that you wish you still were involved with your former AP. Those are two HUGE milestones along the road. So now you both focus your attention on working through R. It is difficult but it is real. And the longer you keep showing him that you are a trustworthy person now the more he will believe that you will still be trustworthy in the future.


----------



## bfree

TCSRedhead said:


> Robsia - we CAN overcome anything IF both parties are WILLING to do what it takes to get there.
> 
> That's the big question at hand. Do you both WANT to make it work? Is Mac willing to do what it takes to EARN your trust again? Having to discover all this extra stuff after D Day 2 on your own is not a step in the right direction.
> 
> Everything needs to come out now so you can understand what has happened in order to begin the healing process. The decision to R or D - well, I think it takes a little more time to get there.


Agreed. It is up to Mac if he wants this to work. He needs to show with actions that he really wants you. It starts with honesty. I was always taught that a man's word is his bond. Honor and integrity are of paramount importance. If they are important to Mac as well he will see that he needs to act honorably. Deception will rot you from the inside. You will know by his actions whether he is being honorable. Let that be your gauge.


----------



## Robsia

TCSRedhead said:


> Robsia - we CAN overcome anything IF both parties are WILLING to do what it takes to get there.
> 
> That's the big question at hand. Do you both WANT to make it work? Is Mac willing to do what it takes to EARN your trust again?


I do. I always have, even now, even after this.

But whenever I asked him in the past I always got "I'm not sure". He said it was because he thought maybe it was better to let me go. 

Now that the truth (hopefully) is all out, he seems to want to work at it. He's not so resistant. He's come and posted on here and he says he will look at Not Just Friends, whereas before he was resistant to both those things. Other than that - I don't know. Neither of us really knows what to do next. That's why he's here. We're hoping you can help us.



> Having to discover all this extra stuff after D Day 2 on your own is not a step in the right direction.


No, it's not. He admits that hiding the truth was misguided and whilst partly an attempt to stop me from getting hurt, it was far more about self-preservation and putting himself across in the best light possible under the circumstances.



> Everything needs to come out now so you can understand what has happened in order to begin the healing process. The decision to R or D - well, I think it takes a little more time to get there.


I hope it is all out. I'm not sure I could handle anything else.

I think right now we proceed with extreme caution.

I went round again this afternoon. We talked a lot.


----------



## TCSRedhead

The talking is good. It's healthy. You both need to get it all out in the open - you need to talk about all the things bottled up that are bothering you. He needs to be sure that ALL details and information are out now or do so now. 

I am worried about continued bits of information creeping out that could really sabotage the efforts.


----------



## EI

MrMathias said:


> Everyone, except cheaters, know the golden rule of marriage which is 'communicate'.
> 
> The public speaking teacher at my school has a quote on her wall:
> 
> "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mr. M., I want to encourage you to try not to make sweeping generalizations about "cheaters." I'm going to give you an example from my own experience.... because that's all I have to share. When you make statements like "Everyone, except cheaters.......... fill in the blank, I think you may be, unintentionally, risking "assigning" potentially negative characteristics to Mrs. M. that she may or may not possess. In your hurt and confusion you may be assuming as it is frequently, and erroneously, stated on TAM, by some well intentioned and some not so well intentioned posters that all cheaters are exactly the same. Your story, your wife, your marriage is not the same as every other posters story. Every WS is an individual with their own set of unique characteristics, good and bad, just like every BS is. 

In my marriage I NEVER failed to communicate ANYTHING to B1. My thoughts, feelings, wants, needs, likes, dislikes, fears, and intentions were thoroughly communicated, to my husband. Even during my affair, I communicated loud and clear. He wasn't listening and when he did listen he simply said that things weren't going to change. 

The point I'm trying to make is that not all cheaters fail to communicate and not all BS's communicate well, or at all. Plenty of them suck at it. I'm saying this as gently as I can because, although Mrs. M. may not have been communicating with you or at least communicating, honestly, with you, she may not possess certain other negative characteristics that you may be unintentionally assuming fit the "cheater mold." 

I'm trying to help.... I hope I'm making some sense.


----------



## russell28

EI said:


> Mr. M., I want to encourage you to try not to make sweeping generalizations about "cheaters." I'm going to give you an example from my own experience.... because that's all I have to share. When you make statements like "Everyone, except cheaters.......... fill in the blank, I think you may be, unintentionally, risking "assigning" potentially negative characteristics to Mrs. M. that she may or may not possess. In your hurt and confusion you may be assuming as it is frequently, and erroneously, stated on TAM, by some well intentioned and some not so well intentioned posters that all cheaters are exactly the same. Your story, your wife, your marriage is not the same as every other posters story. Every WS is an individual with their own set of unique characteristics, good and bad, just like every BS is.
> 
> In my marriage I NEVER failed to communicate ANYTHING to B1. My thoughts, feelings, wants, needs, likes, dislikes, fears, and intentions were thoroughly communicated, to my husband. Even during my affair, I communicated loud and clear. He wasn't listening and when he did listen he simply said that things weren't going to change.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that not all cheaters fail to communicate and not all BS's communicate we'll, or at all. Plenty of them suck at it. I'm saying this as gently as I can because, although Mrs. M. may not have been communicating with you or at least communicating, honestly, with you, she may not possess certain other negative characteristics that you may be unintentionally assuming fit the "cheater mold."
> 
> I'm trying to help.... I hope I'm making some sense.


Could it be that you thought you were communicating your feelings, but you really weren't being clear as to the level or magnitude of the issues... for example, my wife often says "you never wanted to go anywhere with me" as one of her reasons for our marriage breaking down, but I honestly don't ever remember saying 'no' to her if she asked me to go somewhere. Perhaps she was like "I'm going for a walk, do you want to come?" If I say "no", am I not listening to her telling me that she wants me to go for a walk with her? A better thing to say would be "come for a walk with me, I want to spend time with you" or something along those lines... she would make excuses for me to NOT go with her, then it was me not wanting to go. She figured I didn't want to go, made an excuse for me not to go, then she got angry with me when I didn't go. If she ever ever ever said "Want to go for a walk?" I'd probably say "sure, I'd love to". She was saying "*I'M* going for a walk...." Just a thought...

I think we both fall into the 'suck at communication' thing you mention.. both of us.. You make good points.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Hi CWI Reconciliation Friends. Been thinking of you all, but have been ill. I got what my husband had last week; despite flu shots, appears to be flu. The fever part has been the worst. 

The silver lining is that his illness and my taking care of him broke down some barriers (chiefly, anger and defensiveness), and now he is showing genuine concern and taking care of me. How we really feel about each other became apparent when illness struck - when you truly love someone, it hurts YOU to see them physically ill.

I'm still kind of weak and headachey so am headed back to the recliner. But you're all in my thoughts.


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## cpacan

Well, first the affair, then the dismissal note and now a burglary. All computers and backup systems gone - I could use some good times soon.

Ok, I need some feedback/perspective on this. My wife and I had a long talk for the first time in 5 months - she generally don't like it, but it actually went OK yesterday. Calm talk mixed with tears from both of us. I also finally forgave her the infidelity, which made her cry.

Well, here's the thing though, shortened for brevication, so it's not the exact words.

Her: We need to discuss our vacation plans.
Me: I focus on now to cope with everything. I helps me. So I can't think 6 months ahead.
Her: You should - I like to make plans.
Me: I don't. I won't plan six months ahead, when I don't know if you'll be here in six months.
Her: I won't leave you
Me: Maybe, maybe not, but I'll leave you if you cheat again.
Her: I won't cheat on you again
Me: How do I know that, how do YOU even know that? You say said before that you don't see a need to change?
Her: I won't hurt you like that again, I won't hurt anyone like that again. things have changed.
Me: So you wanted to hurt me like that 3 years ago when you decided to cheat?
Her: No. I didn't think at that time. I didn't realize consequences would be so severe. I didn't think about consequences at all.

I have a feeling this is as good as it gets, and it was mainly a rehash of a discussion we have had before. But is it really possible to not think at all before entering a nine months long affair?? Or does it translate to: I think it's OK to cheat as long as I don't get caught??

What do you think? This is one of the last roadblocks (there are two) that prevent me from investing more of myself in her.


----------



## calvin

cpacan said:


> Well, first the affair, then the dismissal note and now a burglary. All computers and backup systems gone - I could use some good times soon.
> 
> Ok, I need some feedback/perspective on this. My wife and I had a long talk for the first time in 5 months - she generally don't like it, but it actually went OK yesterday. Calm talk mixed with tears from both of us. I also finally forgave her the infidelity, which made her cry.
> 
> Well, here's the thing though, shortened for brevication, so it's not the exact words.
> 
> Her: We need to discuss our vacation plans.
> Me: I focus on now to cope with everything. I helps me. So I can't think 6 months ahead.
> Her: You should - I like to make plans.
> Me: I don't. I won't plan six months ahead, when I don't know if you'll be here in six months.
> Her: I won't leave you
> Me: Maybe, maybe not, but I'll leave you if you cheat again.
> Her: I won't cheat on you again
> Me: How do I know that, how do YOU even know that? You say said before that you don't see a need to change?
> Her: I won't hurt you like that again, I won't hurt anyone like that again. things have changed.
> Me: So you wanted to hurt me like that 3 years ago when you decided to cheat?
> Her: No. I didn't think at that time. I didn't realize consequences would be so severe. I didn't think about consequences at all.
> 
> I have a feeling this is as good as it gets, and it was mainly a rehash of a discussion we have had before. But is it really possible to not think at all before entering a nine months long affair?? Or does it translate to: I think it's OK to cheat as long as I don't get caught??
> 
> What do you think? This is one of the last roadblocks (there are two) that prevent me from investing more of myself in her.


Tough one. CSS told me she wasn't going to stop after I dragged it out of her.
Not sure
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

I think this one is probably better answered by some of the fWS here but my first thought was "can't see the forest through the trees." I honestly don't think they think anything at all. I used to love rock climbing. One thing I learned early on was not only do you not look down but you don't look up either. You don't think about what would happen if you fall and you don't think about what things will look like when you reach the top. You focus on the next hand hold, the next foot hold. Otherwise you aren't going to make it. I don't know but maybe it's something like that.


----------



## CantSitStill

All I can say is I and I'm sure others have learned a huge lesson once we were finished with the infidelity. We learned how bad we hurt our spouse, children and ourselves. I have a totally new and better sense about how to deal with problems in the marriage. I have learned to never lose sight of the wonderful husband I have. I bbhave learned to never take him or anything for granted. I have also learned to respect him and myself. I will forever cherish him and devote myself to be loyal to him no matter what. I have learned how to work through problems instead of running from them. I am a changed person. I do regret that I hurt him hrough this process. It is very unfair to him. I have seen the torture I have put him through and do not like that wife that was so selfish and immature. So yes I know it won't happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

cpacan said:


> Well, first the affair, then the dismissal note and now a burglary. All computers and backup systems gone - I could use some good times soon.
> 
> Ok, I need some feedback/perspective on this. My wife and I had a long talk for the first time in 5 months - she generally don't like it, but it actually went OK yesterday. Calm talk mixed with tears from both of us. I also finally forgave her the infidelity, which made her cry.
> 
> Well, here's the thing though, shortened for brevication, so it's not the exact words.
> 
> Her: We need to discuss our vacation plans.
> Me: I focus on now to cope with everything. I helps me. So I can't think 6 months ahead.
> Her: You should - I like to make plans.
> Me: I don't. I won't plan six months ahead, when I don't know if you'll be here in six months.
> Her: I won't leave you
> Me: Maybe, maybe not, but I'll leave you if you cheat again.
> Her: I won't cheat on you again
> Me: How do I know that, how do YOU even know that? You say said before that you don't see a need to change?
> Her: I won't hurt you like that again, I won't hurt anyone like that again. things have changed.
> Me: So you wanted to hurt me like that 3 years ago when you decided to cheat?
> Her: No. I didn't think at that time. I didn't realize consequences would be so severe. I didn't think about consequences at all.
> 
> I have a feeling this is as good as it gets, and it was mainly a rehash of a discussion we have had before. But is it really possible to not think at all before entering a nine months long affair?? Or does it translate to: I think it's OK to cheat as long as I don't get caught??
> 
> What do you think? This is one of the last roadblocks (there are two) that prevent me from investing more of myself in her.


The thing is... They cheat because they've devalued you to the point where you're no longer Alpha, worthy, you're a loser.. this new person is awesome, lover, superman/woman... they will 'fix' this weak person with love and advice, and kindness, because they are wonderful... You're not even in the thoughts. Then, it gets better... if it lasts long enough, they don't even really care about this person all that much anymore.. build up resentments, and still just sneak off and hump them for the rush, or thrill of sneaking and doing something wrong.. So now they're screwing you over, and for something that isn't even all that wonderful anymore.. just routine now. Awesome, thanks honey.... Way to project how you would feel if this was done to you and protect me..

Then you pull them out and they're all like 'omg you saved me'.. aka, 'sh-i-t you caught me'... All of the sudden you (plan B) become Alpha again, when you make her get STD tests and tell the kids that mommy is leaving the house to go live in grandma's extra room on an air mattress.. you put mommies stuff out, and all of the sudden mommy realizes that she loves you. Amazing, now you are plan A... She loves you more than she can remember, why? Because she might lose you... now you're desirable, she wants you again.. she realizes some other woman is going to get you, and you're not really all that bad as she's made up in her mind to justify boinking some other guy. You're Alpha again.. Yay, you get exclusive rights to bang your woman again.. There are no guarantees for how long, but then there are no guarantees in life anyway... Stay strong..


----------



## Mr Blunt

EI and B1
Those pictures are day brighteners!
B1 with his HP shirt and kind appearance that reflects his nature.
EI with her million dollar smile and a glow over her head.

EI is also much better looking than Edith Ann
*And that is the truth!! *Sticks tongue out and makes funny noise 

Edith Ann - "And thats the truth" - YouTube



If you are totally confused by my post then check out the 1960s show Laugh-In on You Tube


----------



## calvin

russell28 said:


> The thing is... They cheat because they've devalued you to the point where you're no longer Alpha, worthy, you're a loser.. this new person is awesome, lover, superman/woman... they will 'fix' this weak person with love and advice, and kindness, because they are wonderful... You're not even in the thoughts. Then, it gets better... if it lasts long enough, they don't even really care about this person all that much anymore.. build up resentments, and still just sneak off and hump them for the rush, or thrill of sneaking and doing something wrong.. So now they're screwing you over, and for something that isn't even all that wonderful anymore.. just routine now. Awesome, thanks honey.... Way to project how you would feel if this was done to you and protect me..
> 
> Then you pull them out and they're all like 'omg you saved me'.. aka, 'sh-i-t you caught me'... All of the sudden you (plan B) become Alpha again, when you make her get STD tests and tell the kids that mommy is leaving the house to go live in grandma's extra room on an air mattress.. you put mommies stuff out, and all of the sudden mommy realizes that she loves you. Amazing, now you are plan A... She loves you more than she can remember, why? Because she might lose you... now you're desirable, she wants you again.. she realizes some other woman is going to get you, and you're not really all that bad as she's made up in her mind to justify boinking some other guy. You're Alpha again.. Yay, you get exclusive rights to bang your woman again.. There are no guarantees for how long, but then there are no guarantees in life anyway... Stay strong..


Ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Wtf, I think that's bullcrap
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrMathias

EI said:


> Mr. M., I want to encourage you to try not to make sweeping generalizations about "cheaters." I'm going to give you an example from my own experience.... because that's all I have to share. When you make statements like "Everyone, except cheaters.......... fill in the blank, I think you may be, unintentionally, risking "assigning" potentially negative characteristics to Mrs. M. that she may or may not possess. In your hurt and confusion you may be assuming as it is frequently, and erroneously, stated on TAM, by some well intentioned and some not so well intentioned posters that all cheaters are exactly the same. Your story, your wife, your marriage is not the same as every other posters story. Every WS is an individual with their own set of unique characteristics, good and bad, just like every BS is....
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that not all cheaters fail to communicate and not all BS's communicate we'll, or at all. Plenty of them suck at it. I'm saying this as gently as I can because, although Mrs. M. may not have been communicating with you or at least communicating, honestly, with you, she may not possess certain other negative characteristics that you may be unintentionally assuming fit the "cheater mold."


Fair enough. I try not to deal in absolutes and pretty sure I don't paint all waywards with the same brush, although my inept statement certainly made it seem that way. 

Individual waywards are like different varieties of venomous snake, all with their particular characteristics, some with the capacity to kill, especially with multiple bites. Probably a heavy handed and mean comparison, but is there anyone who would say an affair is not poisonous to a relationship? 

I'm obviously in a negative frame of mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

cpacan said:


> Well, first the affair, then the dismissal note and now a burglary. All computers and backup systems gone - I could use some good times soon.
> 
> Ok, I need some feedback/perspective on this. My wife and I had a long talk for the first time in 5 months - she generally don't like it, but it actually went OK yesterday. Calm talk mixed with tears from both of us. I also finally forgave her the infidelity, which made her cry.
> 
> Well, here's the thing though, shortened for brevication, so it's not the exact words.
> 
> Her: We need to discuss our vacation plans.
> Me: I focus on now to cope with everything. I helps me. So I can't think 6 months ahead.
> Her: You should - I like to make plans.
> Me: I don't. I won't plan six months ahead, when I don't know if you'll be here in six months.
> Her: I won't leave you
> Me: Maybe, maybe not, but I'll leave you if you cheat again.
> Her: I won't cheat on you again
> Me: How do I know that, how do YOU even know that? You say said before that you don't see a need to change?
> Her: I won't hurt you like that again, I won't hurt anyone like that again. things have changed.
> Me: So you wanted to hurt me like that 3 years ago when you decided to cheat?
> Her: No. I didn't think at that time. I didn't realize consequences would be so severe. I didn't think about consequences at all.
> 
> I have a feeling this is as good as it gets, and it was mainly a rehash of a discussion we have had before. But is it really possible to not think at all before entering a nine months long affair?? Or does it translate to: I think it's OK to cheat as long as I don't get caught??
> 
> What do you think? This is one of the last roadblocks (there are two) that prevent me from investing more of myself in her.


Cannot tell what your spouse was thinking. I can tell you that Russel28's description of his situation is different from mine. Yours may be different again.

At some stage you are going to have to make future plans together, or you are going to have to leave. A plan is just a plan. Every major life decision, every major financial commitment, one of the things I now do is consider how it would play out if my marriage ended. But I don't stop living life.

A good holiday can restore some positivity to things.


----------



## Wazza

MrMathias said:


> Fair enough. I try not to deal in absolutes and pretty sure I don't paint all waywards with the same brush, although my inept statement certainly made it seem that way.
> 
> Individual waywards are like different varieties of venomous snake, all with their particular characteristics, some with the capacity to kill, especially with multiple bites. Probably a heavy handed and mean comparison, but is there anyone who would say an affair is not poisonous to a relationship?
> 
> I'm obviously in a negative frame of mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We all carry that venom though. The question is how likely each of us is to bite.

Your analogy would be totally apt if you felt Mrs M had learnt nothing.

You get to decide whether you spend time with her understanding the depth of her change, or look for someone else you can get to know and find out what sort of risk they are. I'm personally of the view that someone who has learned from the mistake is a better risk.

Or you can stay away from everyone, just in case someone bites.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

cpacan said:


> I have a feeling this is as good as it gets, and it was mainly a rehash of a discussion we have had before. But is it really possible to not think at all before entering a nine months long affair?? Or does it translate to: I think it's OK to cheat as long as I don't get caught??


I don't know about your relationship with your wife or how she thinks, i can only give you my perspective as a cheater. One thing I've learned though, is that there is a common pathology to the way cheaters behave and how we rationalized our actions. I can tell you is that, as ridiculous as it seems, I didn't think of the implications or consequences of my actions before I embarked on what turned out to be a four month affair. I certainly never set out to hurt my wife. This sounds unbelievable and even I look back and can't understand what the hell I was thinking, but it happeneed.

I think it happened for two reasons. First, I doubt any but the most cold-hearted woke up one day and said, "I'm going to go out and cheat on my spouse." It was a series of little steps, a series of self-deceptions. It starts with innocent actions that are kept a secret and you rationalize that the secret is ok because, if she knew she wouldn't object but if I ask, she might take it the wrong way, so I'm just avoiding an unnecessary hassle or potential argument. As the innocent actions gradually become less innocent, you rationalize each of those baby steps by convincing yourself that you won't be hurting your spouse because you are in control, you won't let this thing get out of hand and you really haven't done anything wrong. You convince yourself that it's all a harmless fantasy (in my case you even convince yourself that there is some therapeutic value to you marriage in having this other person to open up to)and that you won't let it get out of control and cross a line. But the faux good feelings you get from this fantasy relationship cause you to keep pushing the line of what's harmless and what's not ever further until by the time you realize where you are and what you are doing and that you don't control squat, it's too late, you've crossed all the lines already. So you really don't think of the big picture because you are focused on whatever little baby step is right in front of you, you lose all perspective.

Secondly, you don't think about consequences while you are baby stepping because you have fooled yourself into believeing that you are firmly in control, and you will never let things get "that far", therefore there is no need to consider consequences. 

There is nothing real, rational or grounded about what occurs in an affair other than the destruction it leaves in its wake. Similarly, there is nothing real, rational or grounded in the way a WS thinks when getting into an affair. It sounds like a temporary insanity cop out, which is why I have never explained it to my BS, and I don't offer it as an excuse, merely as an explanation for how your wife could do what she did without maliciously intending to hurt you or callously disregarding the obvious consequences. I have a feeling I'm about to get thrashed for this post but I'm just trying to explain the messed up psychology, not defend it.


----------



## bfree

russell28 said:


> The thing is... They cheat because they've devalued you to the point where you're no longer Alpha, worthy, you're a loser.. this new person is awesome, lover, superman/woman... they will 'fix' this weak person with love and advice, and kindness, because they are wonderful... You're not even in the thoughts. Then, it gets better... if it lasts long enough, they don't even really care about this person all that much anymore.. build up resentments, and still just sneak off and hump them for the rush, or thrill of sneaking and doing something wrong.. So now they're screwing you over, and for something that isn't even all that wonderful anymore.. just routine now. Awesome, thanks honey.... Way to project how you would feel if this was done to you and protect me..
> 
> Then you pull them out and they're all like 'omg you saved me'.. aka, 'sh-i-t you caught me'... All of the sudden you (plan B) become Alpha again, when you make her get STD tests and tell the kids that mommy is leaving the house to go live in grandma's extra room on an air mattress.. you put mommies stuff out, and all of the sudden mommy realizes that she loves you. Amazing, now you are plan A... She loves you more than she can remember, why? Because she might lose you... now you're desirable, she wants you again.. she realizes some other woman is going to get you, and you're not really all that bad as she's made up in her mind to justify boinking some other guy. You're Alpha again.. Yay, you get exclusive rights to bang your woman again.. There are no guarantees for how long, but then there are no guarantees in life anyway... Stay strong..


Dig, where are you?


----------



## bfree

MrMathias said:


> Fair enough. I try not to deal in absolutes and pretty sure I don't paint all waywards with the same brush, although my inept statement certainly made it seem that way.
> 
> Individual waywards are like different varieties of venomous snake, all with their particular characteristics, some with the capacity to kill, especially with multiple bites. Probably a heavy handed and mean comparison, but is there anyone who would say an affair is not poisonous to a relationship?
> 
> I'm obviously in a negative frame of mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like snakes.

Seriously though I'm going to say something that you probably don't agree with and want to hear even less.

EVERYONE IS CAPABLE OF HAVING AN AFFAIR

And if you don't believe that you aren't as aware as I thought you were.

We are all human. We all have the capacity for deceit. We all have the capacity to act selfish. We all have the capacity to hurt others. The only difference between someone who has an affair and someone who doesn't is circumstances. I could easily cheat on my wife. I know how to do it and get away with it. I know she trusts me enough to never suspect. I can lie with the best of them if need be. The only reason I don't cheat is because I am aware that I can and therefore never allow myself to be placed in a situation that would tempt me. I know that slope is slippery. I know how easy it is to slide down once you get started. So I make sure not to start. The only difference between me and someone who did cheat is that I have that knowledge before I was placed in a compromising situation. I know I'm an azzhole and I work hard to keep that in check. The ones that say "I could never do that" are the ones you should worry about.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

SE, no you're not gonna get thrashed, as I understand this thread, it is about offering insight through honesty.

I think that part of you post reflect the same core value as I find in my wife, or at least that's what I'm worried about, that it's ok to cheat as long as no one knows.

I don't wanna live with a person who hold this belief, that's why I'm challenging this explanation.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Once in a great while I think I am being to hard on myself. And then I read something like what Matt writes above and I know there are no words strong enough to describe how awful a person is to cause the pain and devastation I've inflicted on someone I was supposed to love and cherish.

My apologies to the other WS here who are further on their journey of self-forgiveness. I hope someday I can find a fraction of that acceptance. But it feels much more accurate to believe Matt when he tells me I'm a vile person no matter what anyone else thinks.

I know I am behaving in a trustworthy manner NOW. But what does it matter since when I faced my greatest challenges, I failed so completely?

I'm so sorry, Matt. I would change it all if I only could. I have nothing to offer you except my feeble efforts to show you I'm learning from this. But I understand why you would prefer to not be with someone that had to be taught that lesson, which seems like any decent person would know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Today when we talked I said maybe what I need to do is compartmentalise the last few months into a ‘single phase’ in his life, rather than stressing out over every date and chat as if each one were a separate betrayal, otherwise I’ll go mad. I had intended to go round and ask to look through the emails on his computer, but I decided not to, for the above reason. I don’t need to necessarily know where he went every time, with who, what they ate, what they talked about etc. It was hurtful enough seeing the few arrangements I saw via email. I know he had dates – he told me this – it is not news. Provided there is nothing major I don’t know, such as another PA or a love child (God forbid!) - and that it is all definitely OVER - then I think I can put it all in one box.

I say I think – I don’t actually know if I can yet.

We are both busy next week and I am busy this weekend as it is my eldest daughter’s birthday, so we have made arrangements to meet up this week in the afternoons to talk and maybe do some stuff. Hopefully it will be good.


----------



## CantSitStill

I know what you mean Mrs. M. I'm just so mad at myself, can't help it. Hate what I did, hate that person that hurt the one I love the most. What the heck was my problem? What was I thinking? And why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

russell28 said:


> Could it be that you thought you were communicating your feelings, but you really weren't being clear as to the level or magnitude of the issues... for example, my wife often says "you never wanted to go anywhere with me" as one of her reasons for our marriage breaking down, but I honestly don't ever remember saying 'no' to her if she asked me to go somewhere. Perhaps she was like "I'm going for a walk, do you want to come?" If I say "no", am I not listening to her telling me that she wants me to go for a walk with her? A better thing to say would be "come for a walk with me, I want to spend time with you" or something along those lines... she would make excuses for me to NOT go with her, then it was me not wanting to go. She figured I didn't want to go, made an excuse for me not to go, then she got angry with me when I didn't go. If she ever ever ever said "Want to go for a walk?" I'd probably say "sure, I'd love to". She was saying "*I'M* going for a walk...." Just a thought...
> 
> I think we both fall into the 'suck at communication' thing you mention.. both of us.. You make good points.


That's a very fair question for the purposes of anyone reading, but God as my witness and B1 when he has a chance to reply (he's driving now) will back me up on this, I did everything short of set myself on fire to get him to "wake up" and work with me on putting our marriage back together. We both contributed to the broken state of our marriage prior to my EA/PA. But, a few years before my A, I knew that I couldn't continue living that way any longer. I'd known it for many years, but I kept telling myself that "when such and such happens, things will start to get better. We would overcome one obstacle in our life only to find an even bigger one had taken its place. Eventually, I knew that "working on us" had to be something we did in spite of our circumstances. Our marriage was rapidly declining....... 

I communicated...... But, due to B1's depression and low Testerone, he didn't have the motivation, desire or will to work on improving our marriage or himself. Lacking the ability to cope with our marital issues, his personal issues and my unmet needs, he chose instead to become more and more emotionally distant. With low Testosterone he had little or no desire to be physically intimate. I lacked the coping skills to handle the lack of support at home, the loneliness, the lack of emotional and physical intimacy and in my loneliness and hopelessness, I chose to have an EA/PA. 

I think that when reconciling a marriage is the goal or even reconciling within one's own self after a marriage ends it's critical to understand that:

WS does not = all things bad/done wrong in the marriage, and
BS does not = all things good/done right in the marriage or vice versa........

For those of us who wish to reconcile, heal or simply move forward without our spouse, we need to come to a place where instead of finger pointing, name calling and blaming, we begin looking at our own selves to determine how or if we contributed to the breakdown of the marriage so that we may become the best version of ourselves going forward. After you've figured out who you are and who you want to be, then decide if your spouse (who has, hopefully, done the same) is the person whom you want to go forward with. And, remember, that both the BS and the WS, have a choice in whether or not to go forward in the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScrewedEverything

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> I think that part of you post reflect the same core value as I find in my wife, or at least that's what I'm worried about, that it's ok to cheat as long as no one knows.
> 
> I don't wanna live with a person who hold this belief, that's why I'm challenging this explanation.


Then I didn't explain it well. She probably never thought "it's ok to cheat" she probably deluded herself into thinking that she was incapable of cheating, she wasn't going to do it, and that she wasn't doing it until things reached a point where it had happened.

You need to be comfortable in your own mind but I think it's important to make your decisions based on who she is and how she thinks and behaves *today*. Does she own what she did? Is she truly remorseful? Is she committed to making a life with you? Do you still love each other? 

Just as some sins are too grievous to ever be forgiven, some sins are too grievous to ever be repeated. If she is any kind of decent person, the affair and its aftermath changed her every bit as much if not more than it changed you. My wife said this to me the other day: "I wish that it had never happened but in alot of ways we are both better people today because it did." That all might not be enough for you, only you get to decide that but I'd encourage you to judge her and your future based on where you are today rather than where you were at the worst point in both your lives.


----------



## russell28

CantSitStill said:


> Wtf, I think that's bullcrap
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was in a bad place.. I apologize to everyone for venting here.


----------



## CantSitStill

It's been a bad enough day for us and it just kept getting worse. So I'm just a bit aggrevated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



ScrewedEverything said:


> Then I didn't explain it well. She probably never thought "it's ok to cheat" she probably deluded herself into thinking that she was incapable of cheating, she wasn't going to do it, and that she wasn't doing it until things reached a point where it had happened.
> 
> You need to be comfortable in your own mind but I think it's important to make your decisions based on who she is and how she thinks and behaves *today*. Does she own what she did? Is she truly remorseful? Is she committed to making a life with you? Do you still love each other?
> 
> Just as some sins are too grievous to ever be forgiven, some sins are too grievous to ever be repeated. If she is any kind of decent person, the affair and its aftermath changed her every bit as much if not more than it changed you. My wife said this to me the other day: "I wish that it had never happened but in alot of ways we are both better people today because it did." That all might not be enough for you, only you get to decide that but I'd encourage you to judge her and your future based on where you are today rather than where you were at the worst point in both your lives.


SE, you try hard, I appreciate that I am in fact trying to evaluate what I have today - and I honestly don't know. That's why I'm asking about the reasoning: "I didn't think I would get caught" and "I didn't think about consequences" - does that basically mean that at your core think it's OK if you get away with it and if there are no consequences? 

The thing is, if I knew that she was truly remorseful and not just regretful that she got caught, I wouldn't have a problem at all.

But you see, one of the things that go down the drain when you have been betrayed, is your ability to trust your own judgements. I tell you, I had absolutely no clue in nine months! We actually had a lovely and prosperous marriage. She faked it then, she could fake it today, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I would prefer if she either said: "I was plain selfish and didn't think about you. I'll work on that, will you tell me when you think I'm being selfish?" Or if she said: "I'm not cut for monogamous relationships, lets just get a divorce."

That would be straight talk and point me and us in some direction.

By the way, other than this, I feel OK these days dispite all the disasters flooding in


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Dig appears to be otherwise detained, so I will try to rebuke the Alpha vs Beta "theory". Starting with this: it's nonsensical crap.

What is alpha? According to certain authors, I must become more caveman and brutish in my approach to life in order to be Alpha. I must dominate. I must ensure I get my way first. I must be the authority figure in my home, to my children and my wife. I must make more money than my wife, and make all the important decisions for our household. Must build fire, kill animals and only worry about getting my rocks off . . . 

Here's a little advice to all the men out there thinking this will fix their marriage - it won't. It will make you an insufferable a$$hole. True story.

The problem is that somewhere along the line people confused the above behavior as being alpha. It's not. Knowing what you want and what you deserve and ensuring you work constructively to get it isn't alpha, it's just about having the right amount of self respect and confidence. The problematic behavior is when this lack of confidence and self respect allows people to accept pooor treatment and they become a doormat. That's not beta. That's doormat.

So in summary:

The alpha/beta theory is crap.
Alpha = A&&hole
Beta = Doormat
Success = understanding what you want and deserve in life and having the confidence and self respect to ensure you get it by working WITH your spouse to get there.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming . . . . .


----------



## ScrewedEverything

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> The thing is, if I knew that she was truly remorseful and not just regretful that she got caught, I wouldn't have a problem at all.
> 
> But you see, one of the things that go down the drain when you have been betrayed, is your ability to trust your own judgements. I tell you, I had absolutely no clue in nine months! We actually had a lovely and prosperous marriage. She faked it then, she could fake it today, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.


Thanks for the reminder - I'm too often guilty of becoming frustrated that my wife can't see and accept what I so genuinely feel and I forget sometimes that it takes trust to see/feel something like that and I robbed her of trust. I'm out of helpful things to say other than, because you can't trust what she says and can't trust your perception of what you think she feels, focus on what she does. If she's truly remorseful it will show somehow in what she does. If she behaves in ways that demonstrate an effort to be more unselfish and more open, that demonstrate she's trying to fix whatever her particular failings in the marriage were, I think those kind of actions - if she keeps them up over time - will show you where her heart is really at. Remorse motivates you to change yourself in way sthat I just don't think regret alone ever can.

Good luck.


----------



## MrMathias

bfree said:


> Seriously though I'm going to say something that you probably don't agree with and want to hear even less.
> 
> EVERYONE IS CAPABLE OF HAVING AN AFFAIR
> 
> And if you don't believe that you aren't as aware as I thought you were.


I don't have a problem believing that at all. I asked Steve Harley why I didn't cheat, considering that I had crush or two myself. It comes down to policing our own actions, but there is a factor in the other person as well. You rely on your values, and another persons values. If the girl I had a crush on had been more determined, I would have caved too under the right circumstances. I get that. 

MrsM caved easy. Very easy. After I said I was worried she was caving. Heart, mind, body. As Acabado put it, she 'telegraphed him the directions into her panties'. Then, again, after getting caught and she saw what I was going through. It's fvcking ridiculous. Her value system had never been tested, and she knew CJ was a lying deceitful druggie immoral fvck and it didn't matter. He went for the treat, got it, and then she's in love. Two peas in a pod... Now she's desparate to change pods.

I suppose in my case, my boundaries and commitment, and my crush's boundaries, were better maintained than little CJ and his best friend MRS Mathias. So, it's all down to sheer luck and the fact that the crowd I associated with were just better people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edit to add: Sorry, I know I'm being a negative ******* right now. Too much time to think out here in the wilderness. I have no refuge and a lot of weight hanging over me.


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> SE, you try hard, I appreciate that I am in fact trying to evaluate what I have today - and I honestly don't know. That's why I'm asking about the reasoning: "I didn't think I would get caught" and "I didn't think about consequences" - does that basically mean that at your core think it's OK if you get away with it and if there are no consequences?
> 
> The thing is, if I knew that she was truly remorseful and not just regretful that she got caught, I wouldn't have a problem at all.
> 
> But you see, one of the things that go down the drain when you have been betrayed, is your ability to trust your own judgements. I tell you, I had absolutely no clue in nine months! We actually had a lovely and prosperous marriage. She faked it then, she could fake it today, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
> 
> I would prefer if she either said: "I was plain selfish and didn't think about you. I'll work on that, will you tell me when you think I'm being selfish?" Or if she said: "I'm not cut for monogamous relationships, lets just get a divorce."
> 
> That would be straight talk and point me and us in some direction.
> 
> By the way, other than this, I feel OK these days dispite all the disasters flooding in


cpacan,

I'm gonna take a stab at this because I know how hard you're trying to grasp onto something that will make this bearable for you and I have such a tremendous amount of respect for you. Although I do not believe that infidelity is okay, I never did and I never will....... I did it. I wish I could say that I temporarily lost my mind or find some reasonable explanation to justify or even explain why I chose to do something that I knew was so terribly wrong. I don't have one and I don't know if this is going to help you in any way, but I'll try. When it came to B1, I was so tired of "trying," I was so tired of "hoping," that our marriage would improve and I was so bitter towards him for his lack of motivation to work on our marriage that I sacrificed my morals and values. They became collateral damage in my desire to find some measure of happiness without throwing the lives of our children into further disarray. Oh, yes, I know..... I couldn't have done much worse than what I did to throw all of our lives into a state of destruction. I was so unhappy that I became desperate for relief and I became very effective at rationalizing that they they wouldn't ever have to know, or if they did they would surely understand or that they would want me to be happy..... When it came to B1, I rationalized that I didn't want to hurt him, but that I didn't see how I possibly could, anyway, because I didn't believe that he could love me and be so indifferent to my suffering. All these thoughts would swirl around in my head until I thought it would explode. But, the "A" was my fix. I knew there were lots of "holes" in it. Things that didn't fit and couldn't possibly ever work out or come together into one big happy ending, but I was so relieved to get some respite for my own misery that I simply refused to allow myself to dwell on the consequences or possible outcomes. 

I think my feelings for B1 had reached a point, at that time, of not caring about the consequences...... But, for the life of me, I cannot look in the mirror and recognize the woman who could have done that to her children. This is why I am a firm believer in "the fog." It doesn't justify anything, but I know of no other way to explain it. Now, that nearly a year has passed I struggle every single day with the woman I see in the mirror. I want so much to be strong, happy, healthy, confident, whole and healed. I want that because my husband and children deserve no less and they need me at my best so that I can help them heal. It's very complicated. I never in all of my life imagined that I could ever betray my family. But, if you were to ask me now if I thought that I could ever do it again, I could tell you that with absolute certainty that I would not. Because, I know firsthand the devastation that my affair caused my perfectly, imperfect family. 

I still don't know what I could have done that I hadn't already tried....... But, I sure as Hell know what I shouldn't have done.

What reason has your wife given you for having her affair? I do struggle to understand when one partner in a marriage thinks they are "happily married" when the other spouse is having an affair. B1 was completely aware of my unhappiness. We were not living as husband and wife, nor were we sharing a bed long before my affair began. I was so angry because of what I thought was his unwillingness to work on our marriage. I have come to believe after his mostly successful treatment for depression and his completely successful treatment for low T that he was not unwilling, he was unable. The work that he and I have both put into our reconciliation and our new marriage convinces me that miracles are possible and that there is life after death. Our old marriage is gone. We have a new amazing marriage. We have forgiven one another. The children have forgiven me. Now, if I can just forgive myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Matt, I wish there were something I could do to take that weight from you. There's no excuse/reason for what I did. You're right. Deep down, I'm just a bad person. I'm sorry for polluting your life and trapping you with our children. I will do whatever you need to go forward. I know you are irrevocably changed, and I'm truly sorry for doing that to you. I hope you can restore yourself and your peace. I'm sorry for taking that from you so callously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

MrMathias said:


> Edit to add: Sorry, I know I'm being a negative ******* right now. Too much time to think out here in the wilderness. I have no refuge and a lot of weight hanging over me.


No need to apologize - we're all here for the good, the bad and the ugly.


----------



## calvin

Just not good today.
I can't believe she gave him our home number,can't believe I slept in that crappy bed upstairs for two months.
I can't believe how she picked a ex-con over me that night she left,can't believe she believed all his lies.
I can't belive the false hope,the hours and days wasted at MC.
Did I have to go through all this too prove I loved her??
Bullsh!t,its not ok to do this to someone.
It not ok to fvck with someones head like this.
She fought for him,not me.
Bad,day? Yep,real bad.
What the hell am I doing here?
Christ she put me through a lot,for a scumbag.
Sometimes I wonder If I really will get over this sh!t or if I'm wasting my time and I should
Do what is probably going to happen anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Dig appears to be otherwise detained, so I will try to rebuke the Alpha vs Beta "theory". Starting with this: it's nonsensical crap.
> 
> What is alpha? According to certain authors, I must become more caveman and brutish in my approach to life in order to be Alpha. I must dominate. I must ensure I get my way first. I must be the authority figure in my home, to my children and my wife. I must make more money than my wife, and make all the important decisions for our household. Must build fire, kill animals and only worry about getting my rocks off . . .
> 
> Here's a little advice to all the men out there thinking this will fix their marriage - it won't. It will make you an insufferable a$$hole. True story.
> 
> The problem is that somewhere along the line people confused the above behavior as being alpha. It's not. Knowing what you want and what you deserve and ensuring you work constructively to get it isn't alpha, it's just about having the right amount of self respect and confidence. The problematic behavior is when this lack of confidence and self respect allows people to accept pooor treatment and they become a doormat. That's not beta. That's doormat.
> 
> So in summary:
> 
> The alpha/beta theory is crap.
> Alpha = A&&hole
> Beta = Doormat
> Success = understanding what you want and deserve in life and having the confidence and self respect to ensure you get it by working WITH your spouse to get there.
> 
> Now back to your regularly scheduled programming . . . . .


Yea, I over simplified for the sake of drama.. I was on a roll. My wife and I are actually doing pretty well... just with the moments where I should probably not vent online to posts that trigger my anger.. I was thinking alpha=makes me feel pretty, beta=pays my bills... but I see where yours is going.


----------



## calvin

She told me I broke her,that she was fighting for us,going to MC to give it her best shot and at least she did all she could do to save the marrige.
I licked it up,ate it all and believed her.
Not a good day,I'm don't posting,night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt, I wish there were something I could do to take that weight from you. There's no excuse/reason for what I did. You're right. Deep down, I'm just a bad person. I'm sorry for polluting your life and trapping you with our children. I will do whatever you need to go forward. I know you are irrevocably changed, and I'm truly sorry for doing that to you. I hope you can restore yourself and your peace. I'm sorry for taking that from you so callously.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M, you don't strike me as a bad person.


----------



## Acabado

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



ScrewedEverything said:


> My wife said this to me the other day: "I wish that it had never happened but in alot of ways we are both better people today because it did."


Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't your wife currently cheating on you? Is she in luuurv with the gym trainer?

BTW, welcome and thanks for your posts here. Good insight.


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt, I wish there were something I could do to take that weight from you. There's no excuse/reason for what I did. You're right. Deep down, I'm just a bad person. I'm sorry for polluting your life and trapping you with our children. I will do whatever you need to go forward. I know you are irrevocably changed, and I'm truly sorry for doing that to you. I hope you can restore yourself and your peace. I'm sorry for taking that from you so callously.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop this. already. It serves no porpouse. Besides, self flagellation is not cool and unaesthetic. You should now it better than me. 
Big girl panties and keep the fight.
It's a hight clib but you.can.do.it.

C'mo. You can. I promise.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> I think this one is probably better answered by some of the fWS here but my first thought was "can't see the forest through the trees." I honestly don't think they think anything at all. I used to love rock climbing. One thing I learned early on was not only do you not look down but you don't look up either. You don't think about what would happen if you fall and you don't think about what things will look like when you reach the top. You focus on the next hand hold, the next foot hold. Otherwise you aren't going to make it. I don't know but maybe it's something like that.


:iagree: This is a great analogy. I've talked about it being like tunnel vision, or feeling like I was half-asleep. All faculties were not online. I was in survival mode. In survival mode, everything is selfish and inward-focused, and everything outside is dangerous and untrustworthy (at least that's how it was for me).


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Acabado said:


> Stop this. already. It serves no porpouse. Besides, self flagellation is not cool and unaesthetic. You should now it better than me.
> Big girl panties and keep the fight.
> It's a hight clib but you.can.do.it.
> 
> C'mo. You can. I promise.


I don't think it's self-flagellating. I don't know. I just understand why Matt thinks this and I agree with him. His perspective is very logical. I could have done right. I could have said no. I could have never sent those kind of signals in the first place. I didn't. A better person would have.

I don't know how else to apologize and show my willingness to work with him. Keep up the fight? I won't fight against Matt and what he needs to recover. I just don't know how to tell what that is. Steve Harley says the only atonement for me and reparation is to build a wonderful marriage going forward. That the ideal is for Matt and I to be in romantic love and look forward to spending the rest of our lives together. I agree. I work towards that every day. But that is not Matt's ideal and for me to ask that of him feels like another example of my own selfishness. I honestly don't know how to proceed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> SE, you try hard, I appreciate that I am in fact trying to evaluate what I have today - and I honestly don't know. That's why I'm asking about the reasoning: "I didn't think I would get caught" and "I didn't think about consequences" - does that basically mean that at your core think it's OK if you get away with it and if there are no consequences?
> 
> The thing is, if I knew that she was truly remorseful and not just regretful that she got caught, I wouldn't have a problem at all.
> 
> But you see, one of the things that go down the drain when you have been betrayed, is your ability to trust your own judgements. I tell you, I had absolutely no clue in nine months! We actually had a lovely and prosperous marriage. She faked it then, she could fake it today, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
> 
> I would prefer if she either said: "I was plain selfish and didn't think about you. I'll work on that, will you tell me when you think I'm being selfish?" Or if she said: "I'm not cut for monogamous relationships, lets just get a divorce."
> 
> That would be straight talk and point me and us in some direction.
> 
> By the way, other than this, I feel OK these days dispite all the disasters flooding in


I think that when someone has an affair it has to come from a place of selfishness. And I can imagine that its not that difficult to rationalize. Saying to yourself "I deserve to be happy" or something like that in order to justify the affair. And the strange thing is that I can also imagine that if the marriage is in a terrible place that it might not be that far of a stretch to come up with reasons why the affair is "okay." But that same selfish origin of the affair also probably prevents the WS from realizing the damage its discovery is going to cause. I mean if you are in an affair it stands to reason you're doing it solely for your own benefit. So why would you think about how it will affect others? I've heard it said that after the affair partners part they usually feel guilty for having the encounter. Thoughts like "I can't believe I'm doing this" or "this is so wrong" might pop up in their minds. But if you think about it even the guilt comes from a selfish place. They're not thinking how the affair is going to hurt loved ones. They're thinking how its not like them to act this way. Still focused on themselves. So I really can see how those in the midst of an affair can say they didn't honestly think about how it would affect anyone else. For that small time period it well and truly was all about them. BTW, this is not a criticism but merely an observation. I do NOT believe that a fWS that demonstrates remorse is inherently a selfish person. Quite the contrary actually since the process of R is such a humbling and painful experience I highly doubt a selfish individual would even attempt it.


----------



## CantSitStill

You're not alone Mrs. M. I feel the same way. It's hard not to say what you feel on a thread, especially when you are saying what you mean. I've said sorry a thousand times, it's not working. It's hard to sit back and be patient when they are feeling so hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I agree with you Bfree, you are right. As I said, at the time it was like my mind was so warped that I blamed it all on Calvin...I really hurt him bad. I understand his feelings. I want us to get all better but I know it's not that easy. Also yes I get to where I can't believe the shlt I pulled. It was so wrong. It's like me looking at a video of someone else and shaking my head saying...oh how could you? But that person is actually me! How can one like, themselves after such poor behavior. Even tho I know I am not that person anymore, it freaks me out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt, I wish there were something I could do to take that weight from you. There's no excuse/reason for what I did. You're right. Deep down, I'm just a bad person. I'm sorry for polluting your life and trapping you with our children. I will do whatever you need to go forward. I know you are irrevocably changed, and I'm truly sorry for doing that to you. I hope you can restore yourself and your peace. I'm sorry for taking that from you so callously.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M, remember right after the last D-Day when you were going away to do your play and I counseled you that it wasn't a good idea because I felt Matt would trigger unmercifully. Well I was wrong about that and Matt held together better than I would have imagined. But I want you to think about what I wrote. Isn't that exactly what is happening right now? He is triggering unmercifully because he does not have you to help him through it. All he has is his own thoughts and the mind movies. They're hurting him a lot right now. Why are they hurting? BECAUSE HE STILL LOVES YOU!!!!!

If he had no feelings for you would he be hurting? NO!

I took you to task quite a bit when you first started posting precisely because you weren't in the right frame of mind to help Matt....just like now. So I'm going to take you to task once again. Get your head out of your azz and help Matt to deal with these triggers. Stop with the self indulgent drama concerning what you did and focus on what to do. This is part of the process. Its part of the healing. If Matt had just sliced open his wrist would you sit there crying or would you grab a damned bandage and stop the bleeding. Get to work!


----------



## ScrewedEverything

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



Acabado said:


> Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't your wife currently cheating on you? Is she in luuurv with the gym trainer?
> 
> BTW, welcome and thanks for your posts here. Good insight.


Yup. That's the deal.
we can go around and around over whether her situation is cheating. She does't see it that way and I don't feel it that way. But, whatever it is, I don't think that makes her a bad person.

I'm clinging to the hope that what she is doing now is just something that she has to do or get out of her system - like some sort of step in a self-discovery process - before she can move forward. Like I said, the affair changes both people. She needs to figure out how its changed her and whether se is happy with those changes before she can ever decide if she likes the changed me. Right?

Throw me a bone here. This crap is way more complicated than many snarky/bitter posters here are comfortable believing.

_Note: feeling bad about this post. Didn't mean to leave the impression that I thought Acabado was snarky/bitter. I was actually thinking of all those who treat every situation as a simplistic black & white, open&shut, DumptheMotherF'erAlready situation._


----------



## bfree

MrMathias said:


> I don't have a problem believing that at all. I asked Steve Harley why I didn't cheat, considering that I had crush or two myself. It comes down to policing our own actions, but there is a factor in the other person as well. You rely on your values, and another persons values. If the girl I had a crush on had been more determined, I would have caved too under the right circumstances. I get that.
> 
> MrsM caved easy. Very easy. After I said I was worried she was caving. Heart, mind, body. As Acabado put it, she 'telegraphed him the directions into her panties'. Then, again, after getting caught and she saw what I was going through. It's fvcking ridiculous. Her value system had never been tested, and she knew CJ was a lying deceitful druggie immoral fvck and it didn't matter. He went for the treat, got it, and then she's in love. Two peas in a pod... Now she's desparate to change pods.
> 
> I suppose in my case, my boundaries and commitment, and my crush's boundaries, were better maintained than little CJ and his best friend MRS Mathias. So, it's all down to sheer luck and the fact that the crowd I associated with were just better people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Edit to add: Sorry, I know I'm being a negative ******* right now. Too much time to think out here in the wilderness. I have no refuge and a lot of weight hanging over me.


Well, as far as boundaries I don't think any of the people Mrs M was associated with even know the meaning of the word. You already know my feelings regarding those so called "people." And while I will agree that Mrs M's boundaries were also pretty soft (like wet noodles) I really think she's come a long way in a short time. And you did see it coming. Hence my comment about how you really should trust your own instincts. You felt it in your gut. Unfortunately Mrs M was already on that slippery slope and headed down that sad path. So your good counsel wasn't heard. But its being heard now isn't it? So the fact is that what happened happened and it can't be undone. But it can be built upon and used as a solid foundation for something new and better. Its just a matter of determination right now. As long as the two of you don't give up you will both build a new and better relationship going forward.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



ScrewedEverything said:


> Yup. That's the deal.
> we can go around and around over whether her situation is cheating. She does't see it that way and I don't feel it that way. But, whatever it is, I don't think that makes her a bad person.
> 
> I'm clinging to the hope that what she is doing now is just something that she has to do or get out of her system - like some sort of step in a self-discovery process - before she can move forward. Like I said, the affair changes both people. She needs to figure out how its changed her and whether se is happy with those changes before she can ever decide if she likes the changed me. Right?
> 
> Throw me a bone here. This crap is way more complicated than many snarky/bitter posters here are comfortable believing.


Damned right its complicated. Bone thrown.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

bfree said:


> Mrs M, remember right after the last D-Day when you were going away to do your play and I counseled you that it wasn't a good idea because I felt Matt would trigger unmercifully. Well I was wrong about that and Matt held together better than I would have imagined. But I want you to think about what I wrote. Isn't that exactly what is happening right now? He is triggering unmercifully because he does not have you to help him through it. All he has is his own thoughts and the mind movies. They're hurting him a lot right now. Why are they hurting? BECAUSE HE STILL LOVES YOU!!!!!
> 
> If he had no feelings for you would he be hurting? NO!
> 
> I took you to task quite a bit when you first started posting precisely because you weren't in the right frame of mind to help Matt....just like now. So I'm going to take you to task once again. Get your head out of your azz and help Matt to deal with these triggers. Stop with the self indulgent drama concerning what you did and focus on what to do. This is part of the process. Its part of the healing. If Matt had just sliced open his wrist would you sit there crying or would you grab a damned bandage and stop the bleeding. Get to work!


I would not sit there crying. But if Matt slits his wrists a thousand miles away from me and specifically says don't bandage me, what would you suggest? I'm not being facetious, btw. I really don't know how to get us through these next four days and I know the trip is already ruined for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't think it's self-flagellating. I don't know. I just understand why Matt thinks this and I agree with him. His perspective is very logical. I could have done right. I could have said no. I could have never sent those kind of signals in the first place. I didn't. A better person would have.


Mrs M, please don't give up on yourself.  You are doing everything you can to support R with Mr M. Shame and knowing you did wrong by someone you love make self-hatred almost impossible to avoid. By all means keep bandaging Mr M's psychic wounds and supporting him, but don't forget that Mrs M needs some bandages and salve, too. 

You are becoming a better person now. But that doesn't mean that you were a bad or worthless person before.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I would not sit there crying. But if Matt slits his wrists a thousand miles away from me and specifically says don't bandage me, what would you suggest? I'm not being facetious, btw. I really don't know how to get us through these next four days and I know the trip is already ruined for him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Send him text messages more often. Even if its simply to say I'm sorry and I love you. Take pictures of where you are and send them to him. Make him feel part of every minute of your day. Set aside time to talk to him. If he asks questions answer them calmly and honestly. In truth he already knows everything anyway but he's still working through things. If he won't pick up the phone then leave him a message so he can hear your voice. Make Facebook posts saying how much you love and miss him. If you do talk to him ask him lots of questions about what is going on for him. He's fishing right? Look online to find out what is the best bait to use to catch the fish he's after. Check the weather report for where he is and mention to him if there is going to be rain or frost or whatever. If he's fishing on a river look it up online and find out the best nooks and cranny's for him to go. Find local restaurants that he might be interested in trying while he's there. If you go to a restaurant and have a dish that you think he'd like take a picture of it and tell him you'll make it when you both get home.

Basically make him a part of each and every minute of your day and spend time and effort to try to be a part of every minute of his day. And keep telling him how you feel about him. That he is the most important thing in your life. How much you treasure him and how sorry you are that you almost lost him. And how you will focus on him every single day from now until the day you die because he is your world.

That's what you do!

Edit to add this: Did you see what Matt wrote. He has no refuge. Mrs M....you are his refuge.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

He asked me specifically not to contact him on this trip. I would have done all you suggested, but he says it makes it harder. So do I disregard his request in the hopes that he is wrong? When he does text/call, I tell him how glad I am to talk with him, I share info about our son and what we've been up to. I wanted to do all that throughout the trip but I don't want to disrespect him and his request for space.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Mrs_Mathias said:


> He asked me specifically not to contact him on this trip. I would have done all you suggested, but he says it makes it harder. So do I disregard his request in the hopes that he is wrong? When he does text/call, I tell him how glad I am to talk with him, I share info about our son and what we've been up to. I wanted to do all that throughout the trip but I don't want to disrespect him and his request for space.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know it's hard - but I would honor Matt's request. That's just me.


----------



## B1

russell28 said:


> Could it be that you thought you were communicating your feelings, but you really weren't being clear as to the level or magnitude of the issues... for example, my wife often says "you never wanted to go anywhere with me" as one of her reasons for our marriage breaking down, but I honestly don't ever remember saying 'no' to her if she asked me to go somewhere. Perhaps she was like "I'm going for a walk, do you want to come?" If I say "no", am I not listening to her telling me that she wants me to go for a walk with her? A better thing to say would be "come for a walk with me, I want to spend time with you" or something along those lines... she would make excuses for me to NOT go with her, then it was me not wanting to go. She figured I didn't want to go, made an excuse for me not to go, then she got angry with me when I didn't go. If she ever ever ever said "Want to go for a walk?" I'd probably say "sure, I'd love to". She was saying "*I'M* going for a walk...." Just a thought...
> 
> I think we both fall into the 'suck at communication' thing you mention.. both of us.. You make good points.


Oh she was being very clear. EI talked and pleaded with me for years prior to her A. She really did try everything she could to get through to me. Even telling me she would find passion with or without me. I blew it off like I did everything else then.

No, it's no excuse for her to do what she did, but I cannot say EI didn't communicate her feelings and needs to me. She did.

She talked or tried to, emailed, texted, did counseling, tried to get me onto counseling, and tried seduction, nothing worked on me.

Well, the A, that got my attention. After that I pretty much changed overnight after Dday #2.

Even after Dday #1 believe it or not I quickly went back to neglecting her and us and rug swept the whole thing.

Anyway, this is all old news but I felt it should be addressed.


----------



## CEL

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I would not sit there crying. But if Matt slits his wrists a thousand miles away from me and specifically says don't bandage me, what would you suggest? I'm not being facetious, btw. I really don't know how to get us through these next four days and I know the trip is already ruined for him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



The trip was a bad idea. Simple as that he was doing much better when you were spending time together now all he has is darkness. He is just not far enough along to go that long without you with him. He needs constant support from you so that his thought revolve around his love for you, without you there his thought are naturally going to revolve around the A. He is only going to see who you WERE not who you ARE. The problem is not that things have changed the problem is that he is dwelling on painful thoughts without you there. This problem is made more difficult because he is pushing you to leave him alone and as so many threads say the WS should be there only if the BS wants them to be. So you have two shytty options one let him continue to hurt himself or two force yourself on him. Wow real damn glad I am not in that spot.

When does the trip end? Is he saying he is going to come home to you? I think I read somewhere it was only for a week so maybe it should be over soon. I am in the minority but I think Matt will need to do this on his own until he wants you to be there nothing sucks more than someone trying to comfort you when you are mad at THEM and don't want to be touched. I do think you will get past this and that you will both learn a good thing "you are stronger together than you are apart". I had a friend who went on a fast for 7 days while working a physically demanding job he thought he would get some kind of higher thought out of it. Turned out he just got really weird and really hungry. Best plans of men and mice and all that jazz. I think Matt thought this time would help him get his feet under him and kind of make some kind of order out of it instead his mind turned on him. Not his fault and Not your fault our minds are the best tools we have but also our worst enemy. Short and long of it is I would wait till he gets back and then talk to him be ready for him to be in a bad place tho. Once you are back together he will have see how you are NOW and his memories will not torment him so much.

And quit bleeding yourself out you need to realize you are still the women HE loves, you are still the women your SON loves and we still think you are a fantastic person "have faith that HIS love is not fickle, have faith that your SONS love is not misplaced". So keep it together once he is back you can work it out. Like he said in his post he is in the woods and has to many thoughts, this is just a chapter in your book not the ending of the book.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> He asked me specifically not to contact him on this trip. I would have done all you suggested, but he says it makes it harder. So do I disregard his request in the hopes that he is wrong? When he does text/call, I tell him how glad I am to talk with him, I share info about our son and what we've been up to. I wanted to do all that throughout the trip but I don't want to disrespect him and his request for space.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Didn't he already call you? So much for NC.

Sending him texts and pictures is not disregarding his request is it? If he doesn't want to read them he can just delete them. Just my opinion.

And Matt if you're reading this....you can get your head out of your azz too. You're struggling without Mrs M there, which is entirely understandable, but you don't want her to stay in contact with you. Talk about self flagellation! If you want to experience pain there are better ways. Stick a live trout down your pants. Trust me, you'll have all the pain you can handle.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

Mrs_Mathias said:


> He asked me specifically not to contact him on this trip. I would have done all you suggested, but he says it makes it harder. So do I disregard his request in the hopes that he is wrong? When he does text/call, I tell him how glad I am to talk with him, I share info about our son and what we've been up to. I wanted to do all that throughout the trip but I don't want to disrespect him and his request for space.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I should probably shut up here since I am the posterboy for lousy reconciliations but I don't see how you can really go wrong by texting him to say "I love you and I'm here for you if you need me." If he's like my wife in bad trigger times he'll respond with something like "That's great but where were you when ...." You suck it up and just know that you tried and maybe someday the collective weight of all the times you tried will register and help him accept that you are sincere. Rather that he be pissed that you tried to reach out in spite of his request than he be pissed that you didn't when inside he really wanted you to. 

Do you really think his earlier posts were meant for us and not you?


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> If you want to experience pain there are better ways. Stick a live trout down your pants. Trust me, you'll have all the pain you can handle.


And you know this.....how??????????

But I agree with the sentiment. MrsM reach out enough to open the channel if he wants it but leave room for him to say no if he wants.


----------



## old timer

ScrewedEverything said:


> This crap is way more complicated than many snarky/bitter posters here are comfortable believing.


You've said a mouthful there, my friend. 

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> Dig, where are you?


Huge dinner at my Brother's/host home in Florida. Just getting on now and will catch up. My humble apologies.


----------



## Want2babettrme

_You've said a mouthful there, my friend._


Why did I think about the trout in the pants when OT posted this?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Wazza said:


> And you know this.....how??????????


Let's just say that I hung around with a group of very disturbed people with sick senses of humor. And no I wasn't the target of this particular prank.


----------



## SomedayDig

I started back on page 533. I could see some angst. I could see bitter feelings and sorrowful spouses. It hit me in an instant.

Yesterday, quite a few children died when a tornado dropped from the sky and pointed it's horrific finger at them and said, "Die".

Yes. It's quite that simple. A f'ng tornado dropped from the sky and killed children. Innocent little beings who wanted nothing more than love and happiness. Mother Earth in her infinite wisdom pointed that tornadic finger at those little children and brought them home. We won't understand it. We weren't meant to.

But what does that mean to you? What does that mean to me?

Oh...how often I've debated the silliness that is the Alpha male bullsnot at TAM. The chest beaters who tell the men to grab their nut sack and "man up". To which I politely say, "LOL...(rhymes with) swoosh - that AIN'T it!"

Some people can look at their wayward spouse with nothing but contempt. It is fully understood. They have been savagely brutalized, IMO, in the absolute worst possible way. The pain is just too great and they do not wish to be a part of it in any way. I say Good for them! Walk away and take care of yourself and love yourself the way life intended!

The ones who choose to stay and attempt a reconciliation - I say, Bravo. Stay if you will. Forgive when YOU will. But never forget...that tornado can drop from the sky without a moment's notice. It will pluck you from your hiding spot...even though it is so good. It WILL find you.

My friends, there is no Alpha. There is no Beta. There is no Reconciliation.

They are all words. Words that are spoken by those that take whatever path because it is a comfort to them. I chose Reconciliation - so that path is MY comfort. Another may have chosen Divorce, so that is THEIR comfort. When it comes down to it, your choice is simply that - yours. 

If in your choice YOU find Peace, that is truly all that matters.

Don't tell someone they MUST divorce. Don't tell someone they MUST reconcile. Don't tell someone they MUST Alpha up. All choices fall on deaf ears except the one that immediately works for the individual. That is why this nonsense of "man up" is ludicrous. Do not buy the hype. Do you honestly think that by reading a f'ng e-book written by a man who has never been cheated on is going to save you? Do you think a man who has never been cheated on is going to really help you on that telephone call?

No.

Your path...the one that is the most frightening ~ is the one within you. It is the one you have neglected all of your life. It is the one that you are afraid to face. 

And that's okay. Because it is scary. Scarier than any tornadic finger. Scarier than Jason Voorhees with a machete at Camp Crystal Lake. And most certainly more scary than any spouse with any trickle truth on any given f'ng day.

Stand now and look in your mirror.

Do you like who you see? Do you love who you see?

Go from there.

Alpha, Divorce, Reconciliation are NOTHING until you search for truth within. THAT is the only true answer. Once you answer that - any response to the above is correct.

I apologize for being long winded. Bfree, I enjoy reading your words. Even on the slight occasion that I don't fully agree.


----------



## CantSitStill

calvin said:


> Just not good today.
> I can't believe she gave him our home number,can't believe I slept in that crappy bed upstairs for two months.
> I can't believe how she picked a ex-con over me that night she left,can't believe she believed all his lies.
> I can't belive the false hope,the hours and days wasted at MC.
> Did I have to go through all this too prove I loved her??
> Bullsh!t,its not ok to do this to someone.
> It not ok to fvck with someones head like this.
> She fought for him,not me.
> Bad,day? Yep,real bad.
> What the hell am I doing here?
> Christ she put me through a lot,for a scumbag.
> Sometimes I wonder If I really will get over this sh!t or if I'm wasting my time and I should
> Do what is probably going to happen anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is it that will happen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

CantSitStill said:


> What is it that will happen?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS

Ask Calvin what Louis would do?

C'mon Calvin you are stronger than that.

I think you are 100 times better than last year.

Get some sleep Calvin because you probably have to get up in a few short hours.

HM64


----------



## EI

MrMathias said:


> Individual waywards are like different varieties of venomous snake, all with their particular characteristics, some with the capacity to kill, especially with multiple bites. Probably a heavy handed and mean comparison, but is there anyone who would say an affair is not poisonous to a relationship?


I would counter your statement by saying that while I agree that "individual waywards" come in all kinds of varieties, some being venomous snakes, that the EXACT same statement holds true for many "individual betrayeds." I know plenty of individuals who, to my knowledge, have never earned the "wayward spouse" label, but who I wouldn't turn my back on for any reason. While there are people I know who have been a "WS" at some point in their lives, but came to deeply regret that choice, and have done everything in their power to make amends to those whom they've hurt, and I know them to be genuinely good people, who love and are loved by their families and friends and who make valuable contributions to society. 




MrMathias said:


> I'm obviously in a negative frame of mind.


That's certainly understandable. Infidelity has that effect. What do you plan to do about it? Living with a negative frame of mind, indefinitely, can lead to........well, ........ a negative frame of mind.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Texting was a mistake. Thanks all for the input, but I guess we just have to ride this out alone.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I should have honored his request. He texted back that he sees I went with the majority TAM opinion which conveniently lined up with what I want.

So selfish MrsM gets her way again. God, I don't know how to find my way through this. But I just keep trying.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I should have honored his request. He texted back that he sees I went with the majority TAM opinion which conveniently lined up with what I want.
> 
> So selfish MrsM gets her way again. God, I don't know how to find my way through this. But I just keep trying.


So he's angry that you sought out advice on how to help him? That makes little sense since that is what he's been asking for you to do. Find ways to "fix this." Sounds more like he's got himself wound up so tight he doesn't know what he wants or what he's saying. Besides, you weren't the one that suggested reaching out to him. That was me. And if he's mad at me, well lets just say I had lots of practice dealing with angry people since I used to be one.


----------



## soulpotato

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I should have honored his request. He texted back that he sees I went with the majority TAM opinion which conveniently lined up with what I want.
> 
> So selfish MrsM gets her way again. God, I don't know how to find my way through this. But I just keep trying.


Mrs M, in this situation, you were just trying to figure out the thing that would best help Mr M, whether that was speaking or not speaking. If you _hadn't_ texted, he might have thought you didn't care. What he's saying to you right now is probably coming from that dark place.


----------



## Wazza

Matt, hang in there. A lot of people here care about you.


----------



## margrace

cpacan said:


> ... My wife and I had a long talk for the first time in 5 months - she generally don't like it, but it actually went OK yesterday. Calm talk mixed with tears from both of us. I also finally forgave her the infidelity, which made her cry.
> 
> Well, here's the thing though, shortened for brevication, so it's not the exact words.
> 
> Her: We need to discuss our vacation plans.
> Me: I focus on now to cope with everything. I helps me. So I can't think 6 months ahead.
> Her: You should - I like to make plans.
> Me: I don't. I won't plan six months ahead, when I don't know if you'll be here in six months.
> Her: I won't leave you
> Me: Maybe, maybe not, but I'll leave you if you cheat again.
> Her: I won't cheat on you again
> Me: How do I know that, how do YOU even know that? You say said before that you don't see a need to change?
> Her: I won't hurt you like that again, I won't hurt anyone like that again. things have changed.
> Me: So you wanted to hurt me like that 3 years ago when you decided to cheat?
> Her: No. I didn't think at that time. I didn't realize consequences would be so severe. I didn't think about consequences at all.
> 
> I have a feeling this is as good as it gets, and it was mainly a rehash of a discussion we have had before. But is it really possible to not think at all before entering a nine months long affair?? Or does it translate to: I think it's OK to cheat as long as I don't get caught??





> I am in fact trying to evaluate what I have today - and I honestly don't know. That's why I'm asking about the reasoning: "I didn't think I would get caught" and "I didn't think about consequences" - does that basically mean that at your core think it's OK if you get away with it and if there are no consequences?
> 
> The thing is, if I knew that she was truly remorseful and not just regretful that she got caught, I wouldn't have a problem at all.
> 
> ...I would prefer if she either said: "I was plain selfish and didn't think about you. I'll work on that, will you tell me when you think I'm being selfish?" Or if she said: "I'm not cut for monogamous relationships, lets just get a divorce."
> 
> That would be straight talk and point me and us in some direction.


we all have our own different little sticking points, so what i feel when i read this might not resonate for you, cpacan, but here goes:

early on, i could understand that my WH was not making rational decisions when he started cheating on me. we were both in pain from our lonely marriage, so i understood that part, too. i could also accept that he was someone who did not know how to understand or express or act on his feelings constructively, so he acted out destructively -- and the destruction fell on me, our marriage, and ultimately on him, too.

but i needed for HIM to WANT to understand all that. he could say almost from the beginning that he had been unhappy and selfish, but i needed HIM to want to know why HIS particular outlet for HIS pain was to betray me. even with all my understanding, i was still left with the question, "but how _could_ you?!"

the answer to that question is different from saying, _well, it's different now, now i understand what the consequences are_. finding answers to that question was necessary for me to go on. *the most important part of all was that i needed for HIM to be as concerned with all this as i was.* 

(in the beginning, in our falseR, he was not. he was like, "i said i made a mistake! what else is there to talk about?")

i needed to feel that HE wanted answers, too -- that he was asking, "how _could_ i?" and that he was determined to figure out his own sh*t and/or learn new skills and/or do whatever it took to get to the bottom of it.

because figuring out those issues and having those new skills or commitments or whatever are the basis for having a different marriage this time around -- which we both need and deserve.

i don't just want a sincere apology. i want both of us to be better able to communicate and take risks and be vulnerable when the going gets tough. i want a partner who doesn't cope with pain by shutting down and building up resentments, by grasping at external distractions and/or other people to medicate his pain and prop himself up. i want us to honor the integrity of the marriage so much that we would leave it rather than disrespect it again. 

i love my fWH but if we can't work toward that, then i want out now. 

so -- that's not a quick little fix, cpacan, like, oh, now i see that there were bad consequences to what i did.

btw, my fWH *is* doing that work now (and i am doing my own work, too). as he has said himself, if he can get to this point, there's hope for everyone


----------



## cpacan

Thanks Margrace, I agree with you - you are obviously spot on, it's the only sticking point we have left. I would have pushed the issue, but we didn't get to it before bedtime, and yesterday she exploded, so I guess some time will pass before we can discuss this again.

I think your husband and my wife are much alike.


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I should have honored his request. He texted back that he sees I went with the majority TAM opinion which conveniently lined up with what I want.
> 
> So selfish MrsM gets her way again. God, I don't know how to find my way through this. But I just keep trying.


No, texting wasn't a mistake. It was an attempt. You're trying. Sadly, there is no manual for this because what works for some may not be what works for others. Hell, what might make Matt feel better today could have the opposite effect on him tomorrow. You won't know for sure what is going to help until you try. Matt broke his own NC when he contacted you. At that point, I would think that unless he asked for NC, again, that one would assume that he was no longer requesting that. You could see, we all could see that he is, literally, out there, in the wilderness, struggling. Under the circumstances, I believe that I would have done the same thing if I were you. When someone we love is hurting, it is our natural instinct to want to reach out to them. 

Until or unless Matt gives you specific, detailed instructions, then the only thing you can do is follow your instincts, your heart and what your common sense is telling you. In a situation as complex as this, you can only do the best you can. Matt's comments that you followed the majority on TAM which conveniently lined up with what you want indicate two things. He's reading everything that is being posted, so he is still, at least somewhat, vested in your relationship (or bored out of his mind out there,) and he is aware that by following the majority on TAM, you are also following your own desires. IF, he has any desire to reconcile, then knowing that it is your wish/need/desire to be in contact with him should be a positive indication of your commitment to him. If he has no desire to reconcile, then you having texted him this one time will not have been the straw that broke the Camel's back.

I'm going to go further with this. I think it was just last week that Matt posted that you and he were going to attempt reconciliation. I'm sure that the decision was based on many less than ideal factors, but he did say that it was his intent to reconcile. With that being said Matt needs to begin taking positive steps in that direction. As the former WS, the onus for the heavy lifting may be on you....... But you cannot bear the entire burden alone.


----------



## MrMathias

CEL said:


> I think Matt thought this time would help him get his feet under him and kind of make some kind of order out of it instead his mind turned on him. Not his fault and Not your fault our minds are the best tools we have but also our worst enemy. Short and long of it is I would wait till he gets back and then talk to him be ready for him to be in a bad place tho.


I think this is a very accurate assessment.

I'm essentially a chaperone for a college landscape photography class. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed these trips in the past. Comradery mixed with healthy doses of alone time and thinking. I needed them to 'recharge' since afterward I became babysitter number one. 

I looked forward to this trip for months. I needed the solace, the recharge, the peace to commit to a decision one way or another. As for NC you all are reading to much into it. I didn't want her contacting me. On the rare occasion that I'm not thinking about the A, the LAST thing I need is for MsM to send me a text that reminds me of her betrayal. Yes, almost every time I think of her whether she's with me or not the A is inescapable. There's another baby on the way- if we're stressed now, wait till she or he arrives. I needed this trip so bad. I feel robbed, robbed of everything.

So last night were driving through remote Utah admiring the sky, and the ominous dark shapes in the landscape surrounding us, and I get a text... Oh yeah, the affair. I'm texting back and the whole van gasps and starts talking about the amazing meteor they all saw. Yeah it's just a ****ty shooting star, but why the **** am I here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> cpacan,
> 
> I'm gonna take a stab at this because I know how hard you're trying to grasp onto something that will make this bearable for you and I have such a tremendous amount of respect for you.
> ...
> What reason has your wife given you for having her affair? I do struggle to understand when one partner in a marriage thinks they are "happily married" when the other spouse is having an affair.
> ...
> Now, if I can just forgive myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First part: 
G EI, thanks 

Last part: 
From your participation on this forum and from what I get from B1; you're an amazing person. Making a wrong decission does not suddenly make you an awful person - you have worked so hard to acknowledge, accept, understand and work on yourself and your relationship, so I think you have learned a lot from it - now accept that you are human and forgive yourself - make peace.

Middle part - the hardest: 
Oh yes, the reasons... I got a lot of reasons during the initial 6-9 months. they should shed a light on why a seemingly good marriage gets flushed out in the toilet.

*She liked the attention from OM*
She's extrovert and a very social person. I understand that - I also like attention from other women - it makes me feel good, desireable and of worth though I'm an introvert myself.

*I had gained weight*
True. I tend to gain weight when I'm stressed. I will overeat and skip running and walking. I have lost 25 lbs since the affair and still have some to lose. She thought I didn't care about my look.

*I spend a lot of time at the computer*
True. I worked hard at the time. I make a pretty good salary and I have to put hours in to earn them. she never complained about it though.
During that period of time I also started to build my own web platform for creating a business opportunity - preparing for our senior years and pension.
Flipside of the coin: She spend an equal amount of time watching reality shows - to me it's a waste of time, so I'll pass.

*Opportunity*
OM was a friend of the house. Our kids played together, so he was a frequent visitor in our home. He played her big time - Game, straight by the book.
She pityed him because he was married to an LD wife with a newborn, so her caretaker gene was activated.

*Bored/low self esteem - jobwise*
True. She is not satisfied with her job. She thinks it's boring and not challenging. I have always encouraged her to educate herself and look for new opportunities.
The affair was exciting, making up for her boring work days.

*I wasn't supposed to know*
She didn't think she would get caught. Hmmm... obviously not. Otherwise she might as well have told me about it.

*Sexuality/drive skyrockeded* - and I wasn't there...
True. Yet she never asked me for more and never indicated any dissatisfaction. Ridiculusly enough, I always held back in order to not push her and put pressure on her. Misunderstood respect.

*She wanted to try a different man*
Probably understandable. We've been together since we were 18 and 15. I used to think a bit about it myself, so I can relate to that. One would have thought though, that this was taken care of in the light of her ONS 20 years ago.

Besides all of this, we almost never had an arguement. She had her way - If Dig wasn't here, I would probably say I'm loaded with beta. I adored her - placed her on a pedestral, told her explicitly that I loved her almost every day, so she wouldn't doubt it.

The problem with all the reasons above is that they can all occur again and none of them answers the ultimate question: What gave you permission to do this? And how do I know that you won't do it again? - because most of these reasons are very good reasons.

And you know what? These days I can come up with an equal number of good reasons to cheat myself - but guess what? I don't think I'm going to.

Does any of this rambling make any sense at all?


----------



## cpacan

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I should have honored his request. He texted back that he sees I went with the majority TAM opinion which conveniently lined up with what I want.
> 
> So selfish MrsM gets her way again. God, I don't know how to find my way through this. But I just keep trying.


Exactly MrsM... you're trying. You just can't put a price on that. Keep trying. Stay strong.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

EI said:


> No, texting wasn't a mistake. It was an attempt. You're trying. Sadly, there is no manual for this because what works for some may not be what works for others. Hell, what might make Matt feel better today could have the opposite effect on him tomorrow. You won't know for sure what is going to help until you try. Matt broke his own NC when he contacted you. At that point, I would think that unless he asked for NC, again, that one would assume that he was no longer requesting that. You could see, we all could see that he is, literally, out there, in the wilderness, struggling. Under the circumstances, I believe that I would have done the same thing if I were you. When someone we love is hurting, it is our natural instinct to want to reach out to them.
> 
> Until or unless Matt gives you specific, detailed instructions, then the only thing you can do is follow your instincts, your heart and what your common sense is telling you. In a situation as complex as this, you can only do the best you can. Matt's comments that you followed the majority on TAM which conveniently lined up with what you want indicate two things. He's reading everything that is being posted, so he is still, at least somewhat, vested in your relationship (or bored out of his mind out there,) and he is aware that by following the majority on TAM, you are also following your own desires. IF, he has any desire to reconcile, then knowing that it is your wish/need/desire to be in contact with him should be a positive indication of your commitment to him. If he has no desire to reconcile, then you having texted him this one time will not have been the straw that broke the Camel's back.
> 
> I'm going to go further with this. I think it was just last week that Matt posted that you and he were going to attempt reconciliation. I'm sure that the decision was based on many less than ideal factors, but he did say that it was his intent to reconcile. With that being said Matt needs to begin taking positive steps in that direction. As the former WS, the onus for the heavy lifting may be on you....... But you cannot bear the entire burden alone.


I don't think I should continue reaching out to him. This was one of his responses last night:



> Spineless little Matty will lift his no contact request. Is totally pointless anyway, since I'm completely unable to put the affair out of my mind. [\QUOTE]
> 
> So I'm stuck, because he says its ok to contact him, but in such a manner that indicates clearly its not what he wants. So if I don't contact, then I am abandoning him to this pain, and if I do, I feed his feeling of disrespect and no control.  Neither of us can find a positive outcome here, I don't think.
> 
> ETA: He's texting me this morning. So that answers that for now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't think I should continue reaching out to him. This was one of his responses last night:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spineless little Matty will lift his no contact request. Is totally pointless anyway, since I'm completely unable to put the affair out of my mind. [\QUOTE]
> 
> So I'm stuck, because he says its ok to contact him, but in such a manner that indicates clearly its not what he wants. So if I don't contact, then I am abandoning him to this pain, and if I do, I feed his feeling of disrespect and no control.  Neither of us can find a positive outcome here, I don't think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> He's got himself all spun up and there probably isn't much you can do to help him right now. My drive to and from work is about 40 minutes. So many times on the way home I can get myself all spun up and angry at EI within 10-15 minutes. Then as I get closer to home I begin to calm down, once home I usually never even mention the issues that were making me angry. I am far more likely to get angry at EI when we are apart, I can really get myself all worked up on my drive home.
> 
> I feel that mat very well may calm down some as be approaches home and then once home he may have calmed down a lot.
> 
> Also,
> There have been times when I have texted EI and vented, then Asked her to let me be. She would let a few hours pass then ask me if I am ok or ready to talk.
> 
> Give mat time, maybe in a few hours ask if he's any better, if not, give him more time. If after several attempts, and being shot down each time, then I would say let him be for the day. He knows your heart right now, he knows you are trying, he knows you love him. He even knows we, on this board, care too. Mat also cares or he wouldn't be texting you or posting here. He's simply angry and hurting.....
> 
> Hang tough Mrs. M, he still cares, he's still in the game.
Click to expand...


----------



## Acabado

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



ScrewedEverything said:


> _Note: feeling bad about this post. Didn't mean to leave the impression that I thought Acabado was snarky/bitter. I was actually thinking of all those who treat every situation as a simplistic black & white, open&shut, DumptheMotherF'erAlready situation._


Didn't take it like this friend. Believe me. I get the complexities of all this. I get the tough situation you are now.

Just a piece. You know she's full it it, don't you? She's just the run of the mill rationalizing wayward. Don't let your past interfere in what needs to be done to avoid enforcing your boundaires. At this pont I'd focus more in reading BSs threads than working in your past waywardness. She's not different, unique. Persuing the gym trainer is a cliche. She's just full of entitlement, shifting the blame, self centered and focused on self gratification as most of them when they are actively cheating.


----------



## Acabado

> Originally Posted by Mrs_Mathias View Post
> I should have honored his request. He texted back that he sees I went with the majority TAM opinion which conveniently lined up with what I want.
> 
> So selfish MrsM gets her way again. God, I don't know how to find my way through this. *But I just keep trying*.


This. I will keep this. 
Trying in this case meant hanging there with little to no positive (or even negative) input from him. Well, there will be another chance to do better next time. 
So avoid falling in despair, take adventage of the good moments and endure the bad ones.
You are used to immediate results, to fix things as they come.
Sometimes you will be in situations when it will be bad if you do and bad if you don't. Sometimes Dr doesn't really know what he wants. It's what it is.
Patience is key.
Don't give up.


----------



## EI

*I'm getting ready to post this on a new thread on the CWI forum. I would love some quick feedback, if possible, before I do so. This has been on my mind for quite some time. It is my intention that it would benefit not only WS's who are trying to reconcile, heal and move forward, but benefit their BS's and families, as well*. 


At the risk of ruffling some feathers on TAM (most of which do not belong to contributors of the "R" thread) I am going to be very direct. What? I've aways been direct!  Perhaps, but when one attempts to stay within the boundaries of making everyone happy and being thought well of by...... most, then sometimes, their message can become diluted. I've had my "virtual a$$" kicked in the threads this week. Ironically, I was posting very little as B1 and I were trying to enjoy a short and much needed get-a-way (and, enjoy it we did! ) I've gone back and re-read every post that I've made that seems to have agitated a certain group of TAMers. This has gone on in a couple of different threads. One post of mine was referenced from a thread last October, but was quoted in just the last few days, in a new thread by a different poster. Thinking that my views may have evolved some since October, I re-read my post and then re-read a large portion of the thread for context. What I found was that I stand by every post I've made that appears to have thoroughly ticked off a few people. I spend a great deal of time and use a lot of sensitivity in my posting. It is not my desire to offend anyone, particularly, but certainly not limited to BS's. I'm here for the same reason most of us came here. I came looking for answers in my own troubled marriage. Then, I realized that TAM functions much like a cooperative. I like that idea. The goal should be that everyone contributes and everyone benefits. But, when your contribution is sharing your thoughts, ideas and beliefs, they are not always going to mirror those of everyone else. That doesn't bother me in the least. I'm not offended when people don't agree with me. I am offended when they "verbally assault" me for not agreeing with them. I am offended when people refer to me in various threads without having their facts straight. Your entitled to have your "opinions" about me. If you intend to be bold and call me out by name, I don't think you are "entitled" to your "facts." Your opinions are your own....... opinions are subjective. Of course, just because you think them, doesn't mean they bear any semblance of truth. Opine away if you wish. But, if you are going to state "facts" then you have a responsibility to make sure they are accurate. 

With all of that having been said, I realize that because I am a former WS, (an outspoken one with strong opinions, at that) that certain posters are not going to like me, agree with me or have any use for my opinions, at all. It used to burden me. It doesn't any longer. I've come to realize that the individuals, on TAM, who love to hate on me, (and all former WS's, in general, I realize that I'm not special.... I'm just outspoken) are typically the same individuals whose opinions I, generally, have no respect for, anyway. I have opinions, too, but on TAM, WS's are encouraged to be submissive and obedient. There is a huge difference in what I am willing to "submit" to in my marriage and what I will "submit" to for anonymous Internet forum members. You are entitled to your opinions, but my past transgressions doesn't give you an entitlement to call me names, to make sweeping generalizations, and declarations about me personally without it going unchecked. Ugly comes in many forms..... not just in the form of one-time WS's. Arrogance, rudeness, ignorance and a sense of entitlement is not limited to the thoughts and actions of WS's. There is plenty of it to go around....... And, around it goes.......

While I'm on a roll, I have one more pet peeve. It is very common for a BS to seek answers and insight that can come only from a WS. So, a BS will start a thread and in the title, they ask for responses from WS's. And, like clockwork, you can count on a certain poster, or few, to show up, "Johnny on the spot," as the first response, to declare, "Oh what a valid question you have. You deserve an answer, but I can guarantee you that you won't get one from the WS's around here." EXACTLY, moron, you just did everything in your power to guarantee just the result you predicted. Oh, such brilliance and insight on your part! :smnotworthy: Now, everyone can see how superior you are in your vast knowledge and wisdom regarding the "worthlessness" of WS's, individuals whom you have already deemed should bear the stigma of their transgressions for the rest of their lives, their families be damned. Because, well, "they should have thought of that before they cheated." So, as a public service, some of you have appointed yourself as judge, jury and executioner. Or was it God that you appointed yourself.... I forgot? :scratchhead: Because, I am certain that I have already been sentenced to Hell, at least twice, by the powers that be, on TAM. Still, this leaves the BS, who was genuinely, and respectfully, seeking answers, answers needed in order to gain a greater understanding of their own WS, that may have helped him/her to make a more informed decision about their own personal well being and/or that of their families, out of luck. Should a WS decide to "ignore the entitled ones," whose intent is to derail the thread, and respond to the OP's question, they are then subjected to a barrage of insults and accusations, by you and others like you, that you have already deemed you are entitled to hurl at them. Just by making your unneeded and unwarranted presence known on the thread you are discouraging WS's from replying to the BS's request for information. Reconciliation takes a huge toll on the time, energy, and resources of both the WS and the BS. It is physically and emotionally draining. Repeatedly defending oneself against emotionally exhausting and unnecessary crueltly, that in no way contributes positively to the health, happiness, healing and well being of my family is not a good investment of my time and resources. Dishing "canned venom" out at the expense of hurting people, who are desperately trying to heal, is not an entitlement of anyone. 

I believe that intentionally derailing a thread for one's own folly is the very height of the narcissism, selfishness, and sense of entitlement that some of you so frequently assign to all WS's.

Stating one's opinion can always be accomplished courteously and respectfully. Even when the subject matter is as sensitive as infidelity. We do it every day on the "Reconciliation" thread. Being rude to people that you believe are beneath you is a reflection ONLY of your own arrogance and ignorance, and is NEVER a reflection of the person you are being rude to. This goes for both BS's and WS's, alike.

In closing, it's an old quote, but I'm liking it these days....... "If you're not a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem." :rant:


----------



## russell28

cpacan said:


> First part:
> G EI, thanks
> 
> Last part:
> From your participation on this forum and from what I get from B1; you're an amazing person. Making a wrong decission does not suddenly make you an awful person - you have worked so hard to acknowledge, accept, understand and work on yourself and your relationship, so I think you have learned a lot from it - now accept that you are human and forgive yourself - make peace.
> 
> Middle part - the hardest:
> Oh yes, the reasons... I got a lot of reasons during the initial 6-9 months. they should shed a light on why a seemingly good marriage gets flushed out in the toilet.
> 
> *She liked the attention from OM*
> She's extrovert and a very social person. I understand that - I also like attention from other women - it makes me feel good, desireable and of worth though I'm an introvert myself.
> 
> *I had gained weight*
> True. I tend to gain weight when I'm stressed. I will overeat and skip running and walking. I have lost 25 lbs since the affair and still have some to lose. She thought I didn't care about my look.
> 
> *I spend a lot of time at the computer*
> True. I worked hard at the time. I make a pretty good salary and I have to put hours in to earn them. she never complained about it though.
> During that period of time I also started to build my own web platform for creating a business opportunity - preparing for our senior years and pension.
> Flipside of the coin: She spend an equal amount of time watching reality shows - to me it's a waste of time, so I'll pass.
> 
> *Opportunity*
> OM was a friend of the house. Our kids played together, so he was a frequent visitor in our home. He played her big time - Game, straight by the book.
> She pityed him because he was married to an LD wife with a newborn, so her caretaker gene was activated.
> 
> *Bored/low self esteem - jobwise*
> True. She is not satisfied with her job. She thinks it's boring and not challenging. I have always encouraged her to educate herself and look for new opportunities.
> The affair was exciting, making up for her boring work days.
> 
> *I wasn't supposed to know*
> She didn't think she would get caught. Hmmm... obviously not. Otherwise she might as well have told me about it.
> 
> *Sexuality/drive skyrockeded* - and I wasn't there...
> True. Yet she never asked me for more and never indicated any dissatisfaction. Ridiculusly enough, I always held back in order to not push her and put pressure on her. Misunderstood respect.
> 
> *She wanted to try a different man*
> Probably understandable. We've been together since we were 18 and 15. I used to think a bit about it myself, so I can relate to that. One would have thought though, that this was taken care of in the light of her ONS 20 years ago.
> 
> Besides all of this, we almost never had an arguement. She had her way - If Dig wasn't here, I would probably say I'm loaded with beta. I adored her - placed her on a pedestral, told her explicitly that I loved her almost every day, so she wouldn't doubt it.
> 
> The problem with all the reasons above is that they can all occur again and none of them answers the ultimate question: What gave you permission to do this? And how do I know that you won't do it again? - because most of these reasons are very good reasons.
> 
> And you know what? These days I can come up with an equal number of good reasons to cheat myself - but guess what? I don't think I'm going to.
> 
> Does any of this rambling make any sense at all?


I could have written this... 

My wife also mentioned that me being intelligent and having a good job with great salary made her feel as though she wasn't good enough to challenge me, and that she was basically not smart enough to be with me and felt like the idiot at work was more of a match for her since she felt ugly and stupid etc... Of course then the idiot eventually beat her down more, telling her how beautiful other women are and why they are prettier than her etc... Sounds like he was a real charmer. She said when I'd talk about the women I work with (project talk), she'd wonder if I wanted those people because they were my equals... and she's just a housekeeper... Housekeeper that without her, I probably don't graduate from high school... she's always been my inspiration...

As for one party not having any idea about the relationship being in trouble... if one partner hides that they aren't happy, they pretend to be happy.. they hide feelings, then the other partner just gets confused and don't know why they feel hurt and not loved... but when they try to find out, they get confronted with more confusion and smoke screens. It's hidden from them well... and if the A is with a co-worker...


----------



## B1

CPA,
Your never really going to know if she will do it again. There simply are no guarantees, you know this. Just like she doesn't know if you will have a revenge A or not. 

It comes down to a decision to take the risk and trust.

One thing I did think about, is this. At some point in her life she learned that fire would burn you. So, even though the campfire is pretty and feels good to sit around in the cool air, you just know you can't touch it, or you will get burned. She learned this and she knows to not do it again. The pain isn't worth it. 

Hopefully the conditions that also existed leading up to the A are fixed. These are not excuses, but as you stated, they are reasons. In my case I am not neglectful anymore, if I get that way again, EI says she would never have another A, she will simply D my butt. She knows that an A is wrong, painful, damaging, hurtful, selfish and devestating. She learned this by having one. Just like touching the fire burned her, having an affair hopefully had the same affect. 

Now, did EI know the A was wrong before, sure but she pushed that away in order to get her needs met. She didn't know it would be so painful, damaging, and hurtful though. She didn't realize how selfish it was until later. She had no idea it would be this devastating to everyone involved. So, it was a learning experience.
I think EI learned a hard lesson, hopefully your wife did too.

I choose to trust EI and believe that she would never ever do that again. I am willing to take that risk, again. This time though, things are different, we have resolved issues in our marriage, we have learned to communicate better, we have learned to NOT take each other for granted. This A, though devastating, did teach us many hard lessons. Lessons we are taking into this new marriage.


----------



## B1

EI said:


> *I'm getting ready to post this on a new thread on the CWI forum. I would love some quick feedback, if possible, before I do so. This has been on my mind for quite some time. It is my intention that it would benefit not only WS's who are trying to reconcile, heal and move forward, but benefit their BS's and families, as well*.
> 
> 
> At the risk of ruffling some feathers on TAM (most of which do not belong to contributors of the "R" thread) I am going to be very direct. What? I've aways been direct!  Perhaps, but when one attempts to stay within the boundaries of making everyone happy and being thought well of by...... most, then sometimes, their message can become diluted. I've had my "virtual a$$" kicked in the threads this week. Ironically, I was posting very little as B1 and I were trying to enjoy a short and much needed get-a-way (and, enjoy it we did! ) I've gone back and re-read every post that I've made that seems to have agitated a certain group of TAMers. This has gone on in a couple of different threads. One post of mine was referenced from a thread last October, but was quoted in just the last few days, in a new thread by a different poster. Thinking that my views may have evolved some since October, I re-read my post and then re-read a large portion of the thread for context. What I found was that I stand by every post I've made that appears to have thoroughly ticked off a few people. I spend a great deal of time and use a lot of sensitivity in my posting. It is not my desire to offend anyone, particularly, but certainly not limited to BS's. I'm here for the same reason most of us came here. I came looking for answers in my own troubled marriage. Then, I realized that TAM functions much like a cooperative. I like that idea. The goal should be that everyone contributes and everyone benefits. But, when your contribution is sharing your thoughts, ideas and beliefs, they are not always going to mirror those of everyone else. That doesn't bother me in the least. I'm not offended when people don't agree with me. I am offended when they "verbally assault" me for not agreeing with them. I am offended when people refer to me in various threads without having their facts straight. Your entitled to have your "opinions" about me. If you intend to be bold and call me out by name, I don't think you are "entitled" to your "facts." Your opinions are your own....... opinions are subjective. Of course, just because you think them, doesn't mean they bear any semblance of truth. Opine away if you wish. But, if you are going to state "facts" then you have a responsibility to make sure they are accurate.
> 
> With all of that having been said, I realize that because I am a former WS, (an outspoken one with strong opinions, at that) that certain posters are not going to like me, agree with me or have any use for my opinions, at all. It used to burden me. It doesn't any longer. I've come to realize that the individuals, on TAM, who love to hate on me, (and all former WS's, in general, I realize that I'm not special.... I'm just outspoken) are typically the same individuals whose opinions I, generally, have no respect for, anyway. I have opinions, too, but on TAM, WS's are encouraged to be submissive and obedient. There is a huge difference in what I am willing to "submit" to in my marriage and what I will "submit" to for anonymous Internet forum members. You are entitled to your opinions, but my past transgressions doesn't give you an entitlement to call me names, to make sweeping generalizations, and declarations about me personally without it going unchecked. Ugly comes in many forms..... not just in the form of one-time WS's. Arrogance, rudeness, ignorance and a sense of entitlement is not limited to the thoughts and actions of WS's. There is plenty of it to go around....... And, around it goes.......
> 
> While I'm on a roll, I have one more pet peeve. It is very common for a BS to seek answers and insight that can come only from a WS. So, a BS will start a thread and in the title, they ask for responses from WS's. And, like clockwork, you can count on a certain poster, or few, to show up, "Johnny on the spot," as the first response, to declare, "Oh what a valid question you have. You deserve an answer, but I can guarantee you that you won't get one from the WS's around here." EXACTLY, moron, you just did everything in your power to guarantee just the result you predicted. Oh, such brilliance and insight on your part! :smnotworthy: Now, everyone can see how superior you are in your vast knowledge and wisdom regarding the "worthlessness" of WS's, individuals whom you have already deemed should bear the stigma of their transgressions for the rest of their lives, their families be damned. Because, well, "they should have thought of that before they cheated." So, as a public service, some of you have appointed yourself as judge, jury and executioner. Or was it God that you appointed yourself.... I forgot? :scratchhead: Because, I am certain that I have already been sentenced to Hell, at least twice, by the powers that be, on TAM. Still, this leaves the BS, who was genuinely, and respectfully, seeking answers, answers needed in order to gain a greater understanding of their own WS, that may have helped him/her to make a more informed decision about their own personal well being and/or that of their families, out of luck. Should a WS decide to "ignore the entitled ones," whose intent is to derail the thread, and respond to the OP's question, they are then subjected to a barrage of insults and accusations, by you and others like you, that you have already deemed you are entitled to hurl at them. Just by making your unneeded and unwarranted presence known on the thread you are discouraging WS's from replying to the BS's request for information. Reconciliation takes a huge toll on the time, energy, and resources of both the WS and the BS. It is physically and emotionally draining. Repeatedly defending oneself against emotionally exhausting and unnecessary crueltly, that in no way contributes positively to the health, happiness, healing and well being of my family is not a good investment of my time and resources. Dishing "canned venom" out at the expense of hurting people, who are desperately trying to heal, is not an entitlement of anyone.
> 
> I believe that intentionally derailing a thread for one's own folly is the very height of the narcissism, selfishness, and sense of entitlement that some of you so frequently assign to all WS's.
> 
> Stating one's opinion can always be accomplished courteously and respectfully. Even when the subject matter is as sensitive as infidelity. We do it every day on the "Reconciliation" thread. Being rude to people that you believe are beneath you is a reflection ONLY of your own arrogance and ignorance, and is NEVER a reflection of the person you are being rude to. This goes for both BS's and WS's, alike.
> 
> In closing, it's an old quote, but I'm liking it these days....... "If you're not a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem." :rant:


Kind of like a spouse of an alcoholic standing up and saying "hi, my name is John Doe and I'm married to an alcoholic, I would like to hear from other alcoholics, to better understand you and see how I may take that and help my situation"

Then An alcoholic posts...

Then it starts..,your a looser, a low life, how dare you say that, how dare you breath the same air as me....you should die...

And this helps the op how?


----------



## Robsia

We spent most of the day together today, until I had to leave to pick up my girls from school. We talked and talked about a lot of stuff, partly about the A and partly about what was wrong with our marriage that led up to the separation, that led up to the A.

We decided that we were crap at communication. I am almost phobic about conflict, to the point that if BigMac did something I didn’t like, instead of talking about it, I would just not say anything for fear of his reaction. Not that he would be violent, but defensive and angry that I dared to criticise him. So I would keep quiet, but still be annoyed by whatever it is, which would then build up resentment in me, which would then come out at a later date during an argument about something else entirely – Me: “Oh, and BTW I hate it when you [fill in the blank].” Him: “Huh?”

So what we need to work on is making sure we both feel safe disagreeing about something, and working on strategies to make sure a small difference of opinion, or a misunderstanding, does not escalate into a full-scale argument. Quite how – we don’t know yet.

Also he hates to admit he is wrong about ANYTHING so if we disagreed and I was actually right about something, or made a valid point, instead of acknowledging that, he would wriggle and wriggle and twist and twist and turn my words back on me until sometimes he was almost saying the opposite of what he had said in the first place. And when I pointed this out to him, he would be almost incoherent with fury. Which left me sitting there confused and thinking WTF while he was getting annoyed at me.

If it was just me, then I would agree with everyone that the best thing we could do would be to move back in together. It’s hard to work on a marriage in two separate houses. But I can’t put my girls through all that upheaval again. We have already moved twice in the space of not even a year. They need some stability, and the marriage we used to have was not a good environment for them.

But we’ve agreed to renew date nights. We’re starting our MC on Wednesdays so my thought is, we have our appt Weds, then he comes to mine afterwards. Fri he comes for tea, stays and we have our date night Saturday, so that’s a good chunk of time together. And, this just occurred to me and I haven’t run it past him yet, even if we have argued, we STILL agree to spend that time together so we can talk about things and try and sort it out, not just let it fester. We both work during the week and next week he is starting something new where he is working a few hundred miles away on Mon and Tues and the rest of the week from home, so he will be away Sun night till Tues night anyway. So I think this way we still get to spend a decent chunk of time together.

With regard to the new revelations, it’s not so much what he did, but that he continued to lie and lie and lie about it. Whenever I tried to explain to him how important the truth was, he listened, then LIED. Now that I know, obviously the trust is back to zero. BUT the actual news about there having been a second PA has not hit me as hard as the first one was. It’s the lies.

I thought of a physical analogy. That poor chap who had his legs blown off in the Boston bombings. Obviously that was a major physical and mental trauma. If you had your leg blown off and it had to be amputated below the knee, then that is a HUGE HUGE issue to deal with. But if, say a month later, the doctors came and said, “Sorry, your stump has got infected, we need to take some more off, to above the knee this time,” then that would be an additional trauma, but not as bad as the first one. The reaction might be, “Well, most of it’s gone anyway. What’s a few more inches?”

He already cheated on me. The major betrayal was the total disregard for our marriage that he displayed during that time, and the fact that he could quite happily be messaging OWs and arranging to meet them while still playing happy families with me. Does it really matter if there was one or two? Or whether it started in September or August? 

He knows he did wrong. He accepts it was cowardly to let me find out the way I did. I just really really hope that I have the whole truth this time. He has lied and lied and lied and lied since the first glimmerings of this came to light back in November when I found out he was texting a woman. Do I know he is telling the truth now? No, I don’t. I hope he is. But I think there will always be a small element of doubt in my mind. I hate it, but what can I do?

Today was a good day. I feel happy when I am with him, partly because I enjoy spending time with him, and partly because then I know where he is. If he is with me, then he isn’t with someone else, texting someone else. He’s with me, holding my hand and telling me that he loves me. But we can’t be together 24/7. If I could I’d put CCTV on him, then I’d know what he was doing all the time. I hate feeling like this.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

EI; I probably wouldn't post it. You'll miss target. Those who the thread is intended for will just get a larger an more visible target to attack. I don't think it'll be worth it.
Just my opinion.


----------



## russell28

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> EI; I probably wouldn't post it. You'll miss target. Those who the thread is intended for will just get a larger an more visible target to attack. I don't think it'll be worth it.
> Just my opinion.


I agree.. it's a bit wordy too, could use more pictures, fewer words.


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## CantSitStill

I don't know where you are posting that EI but I see no harm in saying what you feel because you are the type to say it like it is, no one can stop you from expressing your feelings. So I don't see a problem. If you don't post it, then you'll just fester wishing you would have. So I say go for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



russell28 said:


> I agree.. it's a bit wordy too, could use more pictures, fewer words.


Wordy???? I've never been wordy! :scratchhead:  Have I?  

Pictures of what???? 

And, this is why I love my Reconcilers, dearly. You give me feedback... Real. Honest. Helpful. And positive! I won't post it "out there." But, just for the record...... I meant every word of it!  And, it's really, really, really hard for me to keep my mouth shut when the words are just clamoring to escape...... 

Bet y'all didn't know that about me, did ya???  Ya learn something new every day around here!!!


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> I don't know where you are posting that EI but I see no harm in saying what you feel because you are the type to say it like it is, no one can stop you from expressing your feelings. So I don't see a problem. If you don't post it, then you'll just fester wishing you would have. So I say go for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I think I got my point across, just fine!


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## Robsia

I would give you feedback but I'm not sure if you should post it or not. If you do you'll probably get plenty of opinions back.


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## russell28

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> Wordy???? I've never been wordy! :scratchhead:  Have I?
> 
> Pictures of what????
> 
> And, this is why I love my Reconcilers, dearly. You give me feedback... Real. Honest. Helpful. And positive! I won't post it "out there." But, just for the record...... I meant every word of it!  And, it's really, really, really hard for me to keep my mouth shut when the words are just clamoring to escape......
> 
> Bet y'all didn't know that about me, did ya???  Ya learn something new every day around here!!!


Excellent use of pictures... 

One thing I do know about you, is you've helped me a ton with your writings. Keep the posts coming.. don't ever shut your mouth, let those words flow.. I was just teasing.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Sv: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> Wordy???? I've never been wordy! :scratchhead:  Have I?
> 
> Pictures of what????
> 
> And, this is why I love my Reconcilers, dearly. You give me feedback... Real. Honest. Helpful. And positive! I won't post it "out there." But, just for the record...... I meant every word of it!  And, it's really, really, really hard for me to keep my mouth shut when the words are just clamoring to escape......
> 
> Bet y'all didn't know that about me, did ya???  Ya learn something new every day around here!!!


I agree with everything you said but I still wouldn't post it. It would be like trying to explain nuclear fusion to a rat. They just wouldn't get it.

And as for ruffling a few feathers....snakes do have the tendency to do that don't they? Have I mentioned that I like snakes?


----------



## bfree

Robsia, take it a day at a time. If he really wants to make it work he will show you that he truly means it. There won't be any guesswork on your part. You'll know.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Just a small request for some extra thoughts and prayers for C&B. We've started packing up his shop and we'll be headed to LA next week to find a new place to live.

A lot of the work and planning is falling on his shoulders as well as general uncertainty about everything in his life right now. 

He's strong and stoic as normal but I know he's not sleeping and fairly stressed out right now.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

TCSRedhead said:


> Just a small request for some extra thoughts and prayers for C&B. We've started packing up his shop and we'll be headed to LA next week to find a new place to live.
> 
> A lot of the work and planning is falling on his shoulders as well as general uncertainty about everything in his life right now.
> 
> He's strong and stoic as normal but I know he's not sleeping and fairly stressed out right now.


Thinking of you both! I hope once you get through the stress of moving this can be a wonderful fresh start for your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

TCSRedhead said:


> Just a small request for some extra thoughts and prayers for C&B. We've started packing up his shop and we'll be headed to LA next week to find a new place to live.
> 
> A lot of the work and planning is falling on his shoulders as well as general uncertainty about everything in his life right now.
> 
> He's strong and stoic as normal but I know he's not sleeping and fairly stressed out right now.


Strenth and positive vibes your way.


----------



## margrace

bfree said:


> I agree with everything you said but I still wouldn't post it. It would be like trying to explain nuclear fusion to a rat. They just wouldn't get it.
> 
> And as for ruffling a few feathers....snakes do have the tendency to do that don't they? Have I mentioned that I like snakes?


i agree with this as well as with your thoughts, EI -- & your thoughts were expressed beautifully, as usual.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



TCSRedhead said:


> Just a small request for some extra thoughts and prayers for C&B. We've started packing up his shop and we'll be headed to LA next week to find a new place to live.
> 
> A lot of the work and planning is falling on his shoulders as well as general uncertainty about everything in his life right now.
> 
> He's strong and stoic as normal but I know he's not sleeping and fairly stressed out right now.


I didn't get to interact with him much but your H impressed me as an incredibly strong and honorable man. Definitely someone who I would dive into a foxhole with. I will pray for extra strength for the both of you.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hi everyone, we have had some crazily rough days...he reverted back to week 1 after d-day. I was very very worried for his well being at work today, he was shaking and getting sick like he used to. He woke up feeling this way yesterday. It didn't feel good at all that he didn't want me near him or to make his lunch, set his alarm or make the coffee for him. Just in the past couple hours I think he is ok now, thank God. I have been praying all day for him. Hate the way he's been suffering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Keeping you both in my thoughts, CSS and Calvin. Hang tough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Don't you worry...never fear...we are TAM...and we'll be here.

Ummm...sorry 'bout that.


----------



## CantSitStill

aww that was a cute saying Dig . Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

TCSRedhead said:


> Just a small request for some extra thoughts and prayers for C&B. We've started packing up his shop and we'll be headed to LA next week to find a new place to live.
> 
> A lot of the work and planning is falling on his shoulders as well as general uncertainty about everything in his life right now.
> 
> He's strong and stoic as normal but I know he's not sleeping and fairly stressed out right now.



You know that you, C&B and baby boy Red have all of the prayers, positive thoughts, well wishes and good vibes that the Reconcilers have to offer. As a special bonus...... The Reconciliation thread is now offering, for a limited time only, "tree touching" by none other than our very own Dig!   When you add all of this together you can't possibly go wrong..... 

On a serious note, last Friday when I was having all of those medical tests done, seeing the messages on here from everyone gave me a tremendous sense of comfort and peace. I honestly felt a genuine calm that day, when for the two days prior I had been a nervous wreck.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey redhead, I'll be praying it all goes smoothly 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Hey redhead, I'll be praying it all goes smoothly
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, praying for you and Calvin, as well. <3


----------



## CantSitStill

Still praying for you Mrs.M . Also for jh52 and your wife, also for Robsia and hubby and B1 and EI that her test results come out good. Also for Margrace, for Daisygirl and everyone else. I need to go back and look for older posts to see who else. Please speak up if you want or need free prayers!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Praying for you cpacan also with your questioning whether you can make future plans, I know it s hard to trust it won't happen again but you also can't stop making plans incase you get run over by a semi or struck by lightening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

I'm praying for calvin and CSS, Robsia and Mac, B1 and EI, Mrs M and Matt, Margrace, Daisygirl, JH and Mrs JH, Dig and Regret, Soulpotato, cpacan, Wazza, Acabado, Russell, Old Timer, Happyman.....


----------



## CantSitStill

I'll pray for you screwedeverything too, that you and your wife can have a happy marriage where both of you have respect for eachother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Soulpotato, I love reading your posts, you really show how much you love your GF and and I see how you really wish you could have a do over, praying she sees your remorse and things get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

bfree said:


> I'm praying for calvin and CSS, Robsia and Mac, B1 and EI, Mrs M and Matt, Margrace, Daisygirl, JH and Mrs JH, Dig and Regret, Soulpotato, cpacan, Wazza, Acabado, Russell, Old Timer, Happyman.....


I remember watching that show... omg I'm so old.... I was always happy when it was my birthday, but she never said my name...


----------



## CantSitStill

K I'll stop hogging the thread now. If I didn't mention anyone let me know and I'll pray for you too 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Ohhh...Romper Room. AKA - CWI at times!! LMAO


----------



## calvin

Praying for you all and thanking God for a excellent wife who bailed my ass out today.
Thank you sweetheart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

Hi Folks:

Just want everyone to know that Mrs JH had her right knee surgery today. Things went well but they found out that she did not have a torn meniscus – but had loose cartilage that was removed. 

She is upstairs resting – have a follow up appointment next Wednesday – to determine next steps.

Then it’s on to the thyroid getting removed on June 10th ---

Thanks for all the prayers, good wishes and positive thoughts.

I pray that everyone on this thread somehow make it back to a strong marriage with each other.

You can feel the love the spouses have here – though mis-judgements were made – you all have been given a second chance. It’s up to you to decide what to do with the chance.


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> *I'll pray for you screwedeverything* too, that you and your wife can have a happy marriage where both of you have respect for eachother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I know that this is such a lovely and heartfelt comment, but only in CWI would "this" make sense! 

CSS, you are so sweet and thoughtful and we are so blessed to have your sweet spirit on this thread. 

Thank you for just being you!


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> Hi Folks:
> 
> Just want everyone to know that Mrs JH had her right knee surgery today. Things went well but they found out that she did not have a torn meniscus – but had loose cartilage that was removed.
> 
> She is upstairs resting – have a follow up appointment next Wednesday – to determine next steps.
> 
> Then it’s on to the thyroid getting removed on June 10th ---
> 
> Thanks for all the prayers, good wishes and positive thoughts.
> 
> I pray that everyone on this thread somehow make it back to a strong marriage with each other.
> 
> You can feel the love the spouses have here – though mis-judgements were made – you all have been given a second chance. It’s up to you to decide what to do with the chance.


Thanks jh,we need the updates on you both.
Lot of good news,I pray we keep getting more.I'm sure we will.
Thanks for all your kind words and thoughts jh.

I want to tell everyone here I'm sorry for flipping out.
I'm better than that and I need to have my head exmanined.
CSS did save me today big time.
Locked out of my truck with no phone she came with the spare key and was glad to do it.
That's huge to me.
She also does a lot of little things for me that tend to add up.
This is a reconciliation thread,not a ***** thread.
Won't happen again.
I'm sorry.

I want to be an example of how things can become good again and they really can.
I'm blessed with CSS.....that might be a poem for Digs thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> She also does a lot of little things for me that tend to add up. This is a reconciliation thread,not a ***** thread.
> Won't happen again. I'm sorry.
> 
> I want to be an example of how things can become good again and they really can.
> I'm blessed with CSS.....that might be a poem for Digs thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, you and CSS are an example of how things can become good again. And, yes, this is a reconciliation thread, but occasionally the road to reconciliation is filled with *****.

No need to apologize.


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Calvin, you and CSS are an example of how things can become good again. And, yes, this is a reconciliation thread, but occasionally the road to reconciliation is filled with *****.
> 
> No need to apologize.


Thanks EI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

EI made such good points that I am going to repeat some of them below:



> By EI
> Opine away if you wish. But, if you are going to state "facts" then you have a responsibility to make sure they are accurate
> 
> You are entitled to your opinions, but my past transgressions doesn't give you an entitlement to call me names, to make sweeping generalizations, and declarations about me personally without it going unchecked.
> 
> Dishing "canned venom" out at the expense of hurting people, who are desperately trying to heal, is not an entitlement of anyone.
> 
> If you're not a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem."



*EI
Everybody that I respect on this thread loves you and B1!*
I hope this help you to ignore the rats with their canned venom. 
Rats and Kockroaches have been around for thousands of years; you just can not get rid of them.


I hope I helped you to disregard them as much as possible. You and B1 have been so open and honest with your life on this thread and *you both have made such great improvements to your marriages and are an inspiration to many.*


For those rats with canned venom I have a question that I have heard on TV. 
Here is my question for the rats


*How is your venom working for you, your relationships, and your life?*


----------



## daisygirl 41

Morning everyone.
I haven't posted much here the last 2weeks or so but I have been reading ALL the posts and have been thinking and praying for you all in your daily struggles.
I have stayed away because I didn't feel like I had anything positive to bring to the table. I've been having such a tough time lately and really been questioning everything, but finally a break through yesterday. We had a very good day and I feel like we have reconnected again.
H has been distant and almost cold, and it scares me, but I think it's his way of coping with the distress and hurt I have been feeling lately. I had a bit of a breakdown on Saturday and we really talked, about everything again. He feels so guilty for the hurt he has caused me and at times he just doesn't know how to cope with it, so he shuts down. I told him that it's not acceptable for him to do that because it makes me feel like I did when he was in his affair and it scares me. I think he's getting there and has been a lot more giving and loving this week.

When one is in a negative frame of mind it makes you question everything. There is no doubt I absolutely love my H but was beginning to wonder if love was enough to get me through this. I truly hope it is, because its bloody tough. I want to be with him, I want our marriage to work and we will keep on trying, not only for us but for our children. My DD was devastated when her daddy moved out and I just don't want her to go through that again. So even when I think it's just to tough, I think of her and know there is a reason why we are going to make this. If that's what's going to get me through the tough days then so be it.

Love And peace to you all,
My thoughts are also with those who are absent at the moment, DD and CM, Pidge and Jo. 
Hang on in there!
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

CantSitStill said:


> Praying for you cpacan also with your questioning whether you can make future plans, I know it s hard to trust it won't happen again but you also can't stop making plans incase you get run over by a semi or struck by lightening.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks CSS, I know that on a rational level. Appreciate the prayers (I have never told anyone that before). 

I'll tell you what I emediatly thought when I read this (it's the R-thread, right ). I thought "well, in fact I would rather get hit by a truck or struck by a lightning than get cheated on again. Why? because the truck and the lightning wouldn't make me feel as devaluated as my wife's cheating would".

I know this is stupid thinking, and that it proves that I'm not yet perfect in handling feelings. Of course I wouldn't want to leave my kids without a father, but still it says something about the magnitude of the offence.


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Morning everyone.
> I haven't posted much here the last 2weeks or so but I have been reading ALL the posts and have been thinking and praying for you all in your daily struggles.
> I have stayed away because I didn't feel like I had anything positive to bring to the table. I've been having such a tough time lately and really been questioning everything, but finally a break through yesterday. We had a very good day and I feel like we have reconnected again.
> H has been distant and almost cold, and it scares me, but I think it's his way of coping with the distress and hurt I have been feeling lately. I had a bit of a breakdown on Saturday and we really talked, about everything again. He feels so guilty for the hurt he has caused me and at times he just doesn't know how to cope with it, so he shuts down. I told him that it's not acceptable for him to do that because it makes me feel like I did when he was in his affair and it scares me. I think he's getting there and has been a lot more giving and loving this week.
> 
> When one is in a negative frame of mind it makes you question everything. There is no doubt I absolutely love my H but was beginning to wonder if love was enough to get me through this. I truly hope it is, because its bloody tough. I want to be with him, I want our marriage to work and we will keep on trying, not only for us but for our children. My DD was devastated when her daddy moved out and I just don't want her to go through that again. So even when I think it's just to tough, I think of her and know there is a reason why we are going to make this. If that's what's going to get me through the tough days then so be it.
> 
> Love And peace to you all,
> My thoughts are also with those who are absent at the moment, DD and CM, Pidge and Jo.
> Hang on in there!
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


good to hear from you, dg! i was thinking about you.

when it's tough, it's SO tough.... sorry to hear about your rough patch and happy to hear that you two reconnected yesterday.

one comment struck me because i'm like this too:



> I have stayed away because I didn't feel like I had anything positive to bring to the table.


when i read that from you, i immediately thought, oh, you don't need to bring anything to the table.... we want to know how dg is doing, no matter what she's bringing or not bringing. funny that i can't say that to myself.

yes, keep hanging in there!


----------



## jh52

daisygirl 41 said:


> Morning everyone.
> I haven't posted much here the last 2weeks or so but I have been reading ALL the posts and have been thinking and praying for you all in your daily struggles.
> I have stayed away because I didn't feel like I had anything positive to bring to the table. I've been having such a tough time lately and really been questioning everything, but finally a break through yesterday. We had a very good day and I feel like we have reconnected again.
> H has been distant and almost cold, and it scares me, but I think it's his way of coping with the distress and hurt I have been feeling lately. I had a bit of a breakdown on Saturday and we really talked, about everything again. He feels so guilty for the hurt he has caused me and at times he just doesn't know how to cope with it, so he shuts down. I told him that it's not acceptable for him to do that because it makes me feel like I did when he was in his affair and it scares me. I think he's getting there and has been a lot more giving and loving this week.
> 
> When one is in a negative frame of mind it makes you question everything. There is no doubt I absolutely love my H but was beginning to wonder if love was enough to get me through this. I truly hope it is, because its bloody tough. I want to be with him, I want our marriage to work and we will keep on trying, not only for us but for our children. My DD was devastated when her daddy moved out and I just don't want her to go through that again. So even when I think it's just to tough, I think of her and know there is a reason why we are going to make this. If that's what's going to get me through the tough days then so be it.
> 
> Love And peace to you all,
> My thoughts are also with those who are absent at the moment, DD and CM, Pidge and Jo.
> Hang on in there!
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG:

I just realized this thread is just like "real life". When are life is good we have good times and fun with our familyfriends/etc. But when times get tough -- we tend to retreat to within ourself. I guess that is just mother nature's way built within us -- to try and protect us from more hurt and tough times and not to be a burden on others. But during those tough times is when we should be reaching out -- because if you stop and think about it -- that is the time we need our family/friends/etc the very most.

Have a nice day -- Take care.

I also think of Pidge and Joe -- last report was not a good one. Hope whatever they decided -- they are happy with their decision.


----------



## cpacan

B1 said:


> CPA,
> Your never really going to know if she will do it again. There simply are no guarantees, you know this. Just like she doesn't know if you will have a revenge A or not.
> 
> It comes down to a decision to take the risk and trust.
> 
> One thing I did think about, is this. At some point in her life she learned that fire would burn you. So, even though the campfire is pretty and feels good to sit around in the cool air, you just know you can't touch it, or you will get burned. She learned this and she knows to not do it again. The pain isn't worth it.
> 
> Hopefully the conditions that also existed leading up to the A are fixed. These are not excuses, but as you stated, they are reasons. In my case I am not neglectful anymore, if I get that way again, EI says she would never have another A, she will simply D my butt. She knows that an A is wrong, painful, damaging, hurtful, selfish and devestating. She learned this by having one. Just like touching the fire burned her, having an affair hopefully had the same affect.
> 
> Now, did EI know the A was wrong before, sure but she pushed that away in order to get her needs met. She didn't know it would be so painful, damaging, and hurtful though. She didn't realize how selfish it was until later. She had no idea it would be this devastating to everyone involved. So, it was a learning experience.
> I think EI learned a hard lesson, *hopefully your wife did too.*
> 
> I choose to trust EI and believe that she would never ever do that again. I am willing to take that risk, again. This time though, things are different, we have resolved issues in our marriage, we have learned to communicate better, we have learned to NOT take each other for granted. This A, though devastating, did teach us many hard lessons. Lessons we are taking into this new marriage.


B1, your thoughtfull post deserves an answer - though I have a hard time comming up with something that makes any sense. The bolded is really IT. I know EI learned her lesson, otherwise she wouldn't spend all this time trying to discipline an entire internet forum  -but I'm just not that certain that my wife learned the same lesson, since she never speaks about it.

My recent posts started by a reflection around one of the reasons: "I never thought you would find out about it..."
I actually found a thread about it on a competing forum, where a WS asked other WS how they answered the question of "what gave you the permission to cheat?" She really didn't know what to say because it wasn't clear to herself why. She understood some of the whys, but couldn't resolve the permission thing. One of the answers stroke me, and I really want to share this quote: _"I rationalised. As long as it wasn't interfering with my role as a mum and a wife it was ok. I wasn't hurting anyone. I wasn't sleeping with AP and I was making sure my kids always came first. I made myself believe I wasn't hurting anyone. It allowed me to continue as it rugswept any guilt. I became a master at justifying my actions. Totally fvcked up thinking. It was all one big ESCAPE from my real life problems and marriage."_

Now, I may be able to fix or help fix a lot of the reasons mensioned in my post above, but this reason - I can't fix. If she truly believes that I will not find out about it - nothing prevents her from a do over.

I really see no other way than to accept that she may do it again, which is fvcked up in it self, but it also affect my ability to make long term plans with her, which she doesn't like - well, argumentation is circular now, I know 

Got to get back to in-the-moment-thinking - a lot of things are easier there.

Thanks again B1, I think it was a good post - I liked the camp fire analogy.


----------



## cpacan

Daisygirl; maybe we should join forces - I tend to post the most when I struggle


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> B1, your thoughtfull post deserves an answer - though I have a hard time comming up with something that makes any sense. The bolded is really IT. I know EI learned her lesson, otherwise she wouldn't spend all this time trying to discipline an entire internet forum  -but I'm just not that certain that my wife learned the same lesson, since she never speaks about it.
> 
> My recent posts started by a reflection around one of the reasons: "I never thought you would find out about it..."
> I actually found a thread about it on a competing forum, where a WS asked other WS how they answered the question of "what gave you the permission to cheat?" She really didn't know what to say because it wasn't clear to herself why. She understood some of the whys, but couldn't resolve the permission thing. One of the answers stroke me, and I really want to share this quote: _"I rationalised. As long as it wasn't interfering with my role as a mum and a wife it was ok. I wasn't hurting anyone. I wasn't sleeping with AP and I was making sure my kids always came first. I made myself believe I wasn't hurting anyone. It allowed me to continue as it rugswept any guilt. I became a master at justifying my actions. Totally fvcked up thinking. It was all one big ESCAPE from my real life problems and marriage."_
> 
> Now, I may be able to fix or help fix a lot of the reasons mensioned in my post above, but this reason - I can't fix. If she truly believes that I will not find out about it - nothing prevents her from a do over.
> 
> I really see no other way than to accept that she may do it again, which is fvcked up in it self, but it also affect my ability to make long term plans with her, which she doesn't like - well, argumentation is circular now, I know
> 
> Got to get back to in-the-moment-thinking - a lot of things are easier there.
> 
> Thanks again B1, I think it was a good post - I liked the camp fire analogy.


Cpacan, that's the problem. You want to fix "this." But you can't can you. Here's what you need to ask yourself. Was she able to continue hiding it indefinitely? When it finally came out did it hurt you? Did it directly or indirectly hurt the children? Does your wife now realize this? Think about the answers to those questions for a minute. Do you think your wife now realizes that fire burns? Would she really want to do that again?


----------



## cpacan

bfree said:


> Cpacan, that's the problem. You want to fix "this."
> *Not really, I would rather just be, and be respected for that.*
> 
> But you can't can you.
> *No, I can't - only my can do that.*
> 
> Here's what you need to ask yourself. Was she able to continue hiding it indefinitely?
> *No, but it was pure luck, or the opposite if you like, and a coincidence that I found out - it was a perfect cover up for nine months. If she choose a short-term affair next time, I am quite sure I won't find out (then, what's the problem, right?)*
> 
> When it finally came out did it hurt you? Did it directly or indirectly hurt the children? Does your wife now realize this?
> *Yes, she realizes this, but I don't know what her conclusion is. Shouldn't have done this or should've concealed it better?*
> 
> Think about the answers to those questions for a minute. Do you think your wife now realizes that fire burns? Would she really want to do that again?
> *This, I can answer with a loud and clear... I don't know!*


I know I'm a lost cause .

I feel comfortable when I know the answers to questions and when people say things the way they are or at least the way they see them - gently but truthfully.

I don't know, maybe I'm looking for something I can't really get.


----------



## ChangingMe

cpacan said:


> When it finally came out did it hurt you? Did it directly or indirectly hurt the children? Does your wife now realize this?
> *Yes, she realizes this, but I don't know what her conclusion is. Shouldn't have done this or should've concealed it better?*


Hello everyone! I have been lurking, and will probably continue to do so. I am reading things, but haven't had the drive to post much for some reason. 

I did want to reply to you, cpacan, though. I obviously can't speak for your wife, only for myself. But the answer is 100% *shouldn't have done this.* I can understand the worry that someone who hid something will hide something again and take it deeper, but I cannot imagine a person doing that after seeing the hell and devastation that their cheating has caused. I hate what I did, and I will not put myself in a situation where I could go so badly off track again. I work very hard to keep everything aboveboard and allow DD transparency into what I'm doing -to the point of basically holding my phone sideways in the car so he can see what I'm doing on it if he wants to glance over. 

There are no secrets and no privacy, and I don't mind that. I hope that the continued honestly and transparency will one day build up enough to reestablish a bit of trust between us. 

Again, I can't speak for your wife, but the thought of another affair or any kind of hidden behavior that could possibly further hurt what I have with my husband makes me physically sick. And I would think that any fWS that has stayed and seen the pain and damage they have caused to the people that they love would feel the same way. 

And you are not a lost cause, cpacan. Please don't think that.


----------



## russell28

cpacan said:


> B1, your thoughtfull post deserves an answer - though I have a hard time comming up with something that makes any sense. The bolded is really IT. I know EI learned her lesson, otherwise she wouldn't spend all this time trying to discipline an entire internet forum  -but I'm just not that certain that my wife learned the same lesson, since she never speaks about it.
> 
> My recent posts started by a reflection around one of the reasons: "I never thought you would find out about it..."
> I actually found a thread about it on a competing forum, where a WS asked other WS how they answered the question of "what gave you the permission to cheat?" She really didn't know what to say because it wasn't clear to herself why. She understood some of the whys, but couldn't resolve the permission thing. One of the answers stroke me, and I really want to share this quote: _"I rationalised. As long as it wasn't interfering with my role as a mum and a wife it was ok. I wasn't hurting anyone. I wasn't sleeping with AP and I was making sure my kids always came first. I made myself believe I wasn't hurting anyone. It allowed me to continue as it rugswept any guilt. I became a master at justifying my actions. Totally fvcked up thinking. It was all one big ESCAPE from my real life problems and marriage."_
> 
> Now, I may be able to fix or help fix a lot of the reasons mensioned in my post above, but this reason - I can't fix. If she truly believes that I will not find out about it - nothing prevents her from a do over.
> 
> I really see no other way than to accept that she may do it again, which is fvcked up in it self, but it also affect my ability to make long term plans with her, which she doesn't like - well, argumentation is circular now, I know
> 
> Got to get back to in-the-moment-thinking - a lot of things are easier there.
> 
> Thanks again B1, I think it was a good post - I liked the camp fire analogy.


The fire analogy is spot on... only you're not just burning yourself, you're burning a bunch of people. If this person is someone that enjoys burning people, and getting burned.. over and over again, kick them to the curb. If they're the type of person that once they feel the pain, and understand what caused the pain, and what the consequences are for touching the fire.. they never want to go near fire again... then you'll be okay.

A couple things that help me.. Think of the A as one big lie, one big thing to get over.. don't get hung up on 'on this day in the past' stuff... Shut down any mind movies instantly, eventually they'll go away.

Live for the moment.. you got the girl. You win... Happy ending time.


----------



## Wazza

MrMathias said:


> I think this is a very accurate assessment.
> 
> I'm essentially a chaperone for a college landscape photography class. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed these trips in the past. Comradery mixed with healthy doses of alone time and thinking. I needed them to 'recharge' since afterward I became babysitter number one.
> 
> I looked forward to this trip for months. I needed the solace, the recharge, the peace to commit to a decision one way or another. As for NC you all are reading to much into it. I didn't want her contacting me. On the rare occasion that I'm not thinking about the A, the LAST thing I need is for MsM to send me a text that reminds me of her betrayal. Yes, almost every time I think of her whether she's with me or not the A is inescapable. There's another baby on the way- if we're stressed now, wait till she or he arrives. I needed this trip so bad. I feel robbed, robbed of everything.
> 
> So last night were driving through remote Utah admiring the sky, and the ominous dark shapes in the landscape surrounding us, and I get a text... Oh yeah, the affair. I'm texting back and the whole van gasps and starts talking about the amazing meteor they all saw. Yeah it's just a ****ty shooting star, but why the **** am I here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't think I should continue reaching out to him. This was one of his responses last night:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spineless little Matty will lift his no contact request. Is totally pointless anyway, since I'm completely unable to put the affair out of my mind. [\QUOTE]
> 
> So I'm stuck, because he says its ok to contact him, but in such a manner that indicates clearly its not what he wants. So if I don't contact, then I am abandoning him to this pain, and if I do, I feed his feeling of disrespect and no control.  Neither of us can find a positive outcome here, I don't think.
> 
> ETA: He's texting me this morning. So that answers that for now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Matt, I sat on this for 24 hours to think about it before posting. Please remember in reading this that I am a betrayed spouse too.
> 
> It seems to me Mrs M was in a position where no matter what she did she could be painted as in the wrong. Dunno if that was your intention or not, but I believe she was pretty confused.
> 
> I think she at least partly wanted to help you, and got beat up for it. And maybe she partly wanted and needed contact with you as your wife. Is that so wrong for a wife to want?
> 
> If you are putting her through a hard time deliberately...well I did that too, but I learned that no amount of punishing my wife, no amount of anger, no amount of abuse, made things better. Arguably they made things worse.
> 
> You said a while back how quickly she fell. Well I don't think so. How long did she know CJ, how long did she associate with him, before it became sexual? How long was the tension building? Mrs Wazza went from first meeting OM to sexual contact in less than a month. If I recall from your thread your affair was in a period where both of you recognised there were problems in the marriage. I went from "everything is fine" to all sorts of horrible, horrible accusations as the affair started essentially overnight. You worry that Mrs M could fall for a 21 year old drop kick. Mrs Wazza was contemplating leaving me to be with a guy who was in his early 20s and still lived with his parents. You just have to accept that people in affairs are not rational.
> 
> Mrs Wazza is normally amazingly decent. You cannot judge Mrs M by how she was in the affair. You have to see the whole package.
> 
> I am not trying to enter a p1ssing competition with you. Just trying to give you a different perspective.
> 
> By analogy, suppose your wife poured ten gallons of gasoline on your house and set it on fire. Will it help the future of that house if you pour ten gallons more of gas on it? You can't save your marriage by kicking the crap out of your wife until you are even.
> 
> I think I will never be 100% over the pain of Mrs Wazza's affair, but every major step forward I have ever made in recovery came when I just sought to enrich the relationship. Justice is lonely.
> 
> I have never told you to reconcile. You will find on your thread multiple occasions when I acknowledged you had ample grounds for divorce. I still think that. So did I.
> 
> But I am glad I stayed. If you plan to stay, you need to look for a way through the anger.
> 
> Ok I will shut up now. Sorry if this is out of line. I care about you guys.
Click to expand...


----------



## bfree

cpacan said:


> I know I'm a lost cause .
> 
> I feel comfortable when I know the answers to questions and when people say things the way they are or at least the way they see them - gently but truthfully.
> 
> I don't know, maybe I'm looking for something I can't really get.


You can't know the answer to every question can you? What if a meteor falls from the sky? What if your life is just a dream and you can't wake up? What if your wife is till having an affair and is just hiding it better? There are no guarantees in life are there?

What you have to do when faced with questions that you can't possibly know the answers to is to make an educated guess. Isn't that really the truth?

Your wife had an affair. That's a fact. She hid her affair from you. Why? Shame? Fear? You ask if she will do it again but just be more careful. Now that she knows the outcome why would she? Is she a sociopath? Only a sociopath would do something like that. But if she were a sociopath why would she be ashamed? Why would she be afraid? See it doesn't work does it?

You say that it was just chance that you found out. But that's where you're wrong. Affairs always come out eventually. Sometimes the spouse chooses to ignore the evidence, ignore the red flags. But it always comes out. Your wife knows this. She probably always did but tried very hard to put that thought out of her mind. She can't do that any longer can she. Nor can she ignore the consequences of an affair and how it hurt those she loves.

You are full of doubt. That's understandable when trust has been broken. But you have to accept that you can't know the answer to every question or predict every outcome. All you can do is the best you can and be the best you can be.


----------



## EI

cpacan said:


> B1, your thoughtfull post deserves an answer - though I have a hard time comming up with something that makes any sense. The bolded is really IT. I know EI learned her lesson, otherwise she wouldn't spend all this time trying to discipline an entire internet forum  -but I'm just not that certain that my wife learned the same lesson, since she never speaks about it.
> 
> My recent posts started by a reflection around one of the reasons: "I never thought you would find out about it..."
> I actually found a thread about it on a competing forum, where a WS asked other WS how they answered the question of "what gave you the permission to cheat?" She really didn't know what to say because it wasn't clear to herself why. She understood some of the whys, but couldn't resolve the permission thing. One of the answers stroke me, and I really want to share this quote:* "I rationalised. As long as it wasn't interfering with my role as a mum and a wife it was ok. I wasn't hurting anyone. I wasn't sleeping with AP and I was making sure my kids always came first. I made myself believe I wasn't hurting anyone. It allowed me to continue as it rugswept any guilt. I became a master at justifying my actions. Totally fvcked up thinking. It was all one big ESCAPE from my real life problems and marriage."*
> 
> Now, I may be able to fix or help fix a lot of the reasons mensioned in my post above, but this reason - I can't fix. If she truly believes that I will not find out about it - nothing prevents her from a do over.
> 
> I really see no other way than to accept that she may do it again, which is fvcked up in it self, but it also affect my ability to make long term plans with her, which she doesn't like - well, argumentation is circular now, I know
> 
> Got to get back to in-the-moment-thinking - a lot of things are easier there.
> 
> Thanks again B1, I think it was a good post - I liked the camp fire analogy.



Okay, I'm going to try to extract where I think the real heart of your problem lies. You know my story very well. Through my writing, you've observed the lengthy process of me analyzing myself, B1, our marriage and all of the "hows" and "whys" of the A from every imaginable angle. Based on your comments to me, I believe you have confidence that I have worked very hard to understand exactly what happened and why so that I will never repeat those actions. 

So, let's go back to last June......... The paragraph that is "bolded," the comments written by another WS that trouble you so much could easily have been written by me, almost verbatim, a year ago. And, for several months, thereafter, I was still rationalizing. Not because I was intentionally trying to be cruel or evil....... but, because that is what rationalization does...... it rationalizes. 

I also think you are getting too enmeshed with the "she thought you wouldn't find out" part. Your fear is that because she thought you wouldn't find out about her A, that nothing would prevent her from doing it again, if she thought she could get away with it. But, THAT reasoning comes during and after the affair. Believing that you will not get caught is not the reason *for* the affair. I don't believe that most people have affairs solely for the reason that they believe they won't get caught. I believe that once the affair has begun, they "simply" think (and hope) they won't get caught. 

You real concern is and should be.....Will your wife will ever cheat on you again? The truth is.... there are NEVER any 100% guarantees for anyone. We have no control over the actions of others. We only have control over our actions and our responses to the actions of others. Whether or not SHE believes that she could get away with having another A or not really isn't the crux of the issue. The issue is..... If your wife had an opportunity to cheat and there was no possibility that you and your children would ever find out, would she do it? Do you believe that she has grown enough as a person into someone who would choose not to betray her spouse and children, even if the opportunity to do so, without getting caught, presented itself? THAT is what you need to decide. Do you have enough confidence in her to believe that she would choose to be faithful, whatever the circumstances, simply because it's the right thing to do? Aside from that, the only thing you have control over is yourself. You have done a tremendous amount of work on you that will benefit you and your children whether you remain in your marriage or not. You are becoming the best version of yourself. That makes you a better individual and a more ideal mate. You can do no more. You can't control her or her choices. You simply must choose whether or not you believe that your life is going to be better with or without her given what she brings into the marriage. 

Is it possible that your wife is remorseful and that she does truly intend to be faithful and wants to help you heal, but that good communication is not one of her strengths?


----------



## Robsia

I spent this morning cyber-stalking BigMac’s most recent contact. This is the one that sent him boob pix, who he said was “just a friend”. He said nothing went on and she verified that. But of course, my worst case scenario was that he had called her the second I left and briefed her on what to say if I called.

I also didn’t mention earlier that along with the boob pix she had sent an ultrasound scan of a baby. I had dismissed that at the time as being of any significance as he had told me she was about ten years older than him (which would make her 54) – so I assumed it was a grand-baby – he’d said she had two grown-up children. It didn’t occur to me till later that he could have been lying about her being ten years older, and it could well be his baby.

I had her mobile number and a first name and the knowledge that she ran a medical training company, so with that knowledge I was able to find her on FB, find her on LinkedIn, find her company and verify through the details held at Companies House and also on the electoral roll that she was indeed 53. So it is highly unlikely that she is pregnant with BigMac’s love child.

So far, so good – that backs up his version of events. But doing the investigating work, and the worry of what else it might have been drained me and left me low.

We had arranged that I would go to his house this afternoon so I turned up, but I was quiet and withdrawn and sad about things. That then affected the way he responded to me. It wasn't negative, but it started us off on a slightly off footing, after we had had a nice day yesterday and a good FT chat last night.

I wanted to look at his iPad again, but I was scared, in case I found anything new. But I decided I had to face up to it, so I picked it up and dove in. I looked through recent emails and texts – nothing new.

But then I went back into the emails, seeing if I had missed anything that frantic day the other day when I found out stuff about there having been other dating sites and reading the emails he had sent to OWs.

I found an email conversation with a woman called Karen. The earliest email from him dated back to 24th July 2012, which mentioned something about her “leaving the site”. Which means that the dating sites and the chatting to OWs started even earlier than I had thought – JULY, not August, or September. And was it July? Was it earlier than that? He says he can’t remember, says “I know” he has a bad memory. Asks me can I remember what I was doing in July? Yes, pretty much – I was ferrying him around the entire North-West of the country to do his job because he broke his foot and couldn’t drive.

I looked in deleted items and found an email I had read before, then an email chain to another woman dating from January, which I had not seen before. So I started to read it. 

Now BigMac starts to get annoyed and defensive, about me reading this particular email chain. Wants to know why I am doing this again, didn’t I do enough of this before, shouldn’t we be starting to look forward not back. I start to panic, wondering what he is worried about. What is it that he doesn’t want me to see? So the more defensive he gets, the more determined I am to read these emails.

I find nothing, other than arrangements to meet up in a park in the middle of winter. He says they met, had a walk round this park and a coffee. Which is all fine, but if that was all it was, why get panicky and defensive about it?

He says he felt invaded, that he didn’t see why I had to keep on reading through his past emails. I tried to explain. Eventually I put the iPad down and he calmed down.

Was he relieved that I had stopped poking, that I wasn’t going to find anything more? He swears there is no more to find, but then why is he worried? If he has nothing to hide, then he has nothing to worry about, right? I told him that this is something I need to do. How long for, he asks? As long as I need to, I say. If he doesn’t like it, he can leave the room, but I need him to let me look in his iPad and on his phone for as long as I need and as often as I need, if only to verify what he has told me. But also to find out if there is anything he is still hiding.

I thought of an analogy of rebuilding our relationship using ‘walls’ of trust, love, knowledge and honesty. Every time I find something out, that is a brick in the wall of knowledge. But if I find out myself, without him telling me, or worse, if he lied to me about it, it knocks a brick out of the walls of honesty and trust. If he tells me details himself, then we BUILD bricks in the walls of trust, honesty AND knowledge. Any nice things he does for me, or reassurances he can give me, put bricks in the wall of love. Finding out about the second PA and the continued contact with the boob-OW knocked our entire wall of trust back down again.

It scares me that there may still be things he hasn’t told me. But it’s not what he’s not telling me so much as the fact that he may be lying that bothers me. I can handle the truth. I can’t handle lies.

I think he now understands about my need for transparency going forward AND ALSO to verify what he has told me about the past. We left it on a good note, but I’m still shaking.


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## TCSRedhead

BigMac - you NEED to sit down and tell her EVERYTHING. This discovery of things will keep happening and keep setting your R back and at some point, your very patient wife will stop waiting and move on with her life. Without you.

Get it all out in the open - let her know/find it all and be done.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all! Thanks so much for the messages and support you've offered Matt and I over the past week. He comes home tomorrow, and I hope we can really talk together about how he's feeling and find a path forward.

I've been fairly self-involved, and I apologize, I know I will miss replying to some of the posts that have interested and touched me over the past week.

But the first things I can address is cpacan and Robsia. *Cpacan*, I'm sure that question is one that haunts every BS of someone who is caught, as opposed to confessing of their own accord. It is a big difference to regret being caught vs. regretting the affair. I wish I could tell you how to clearly tell the difference. But I think it comes down to your gut.

I was caught, twice. It was the most shameful experience of my life to look into my husband's eyes and know that I caused this. I was definitely still rationalizing the first time, saying things like, "I didn't feel like I was taking anything away from you." It was horrible. In my mind, I was "ending it" with OM before being caught the second time. A friend tried to convince me to come clean, that Matt deserved the truth and I told her there was no way we could survive, that it would have to be my cross to bear for the rest of my life. At that point, I believed that I would never cheat again, but that I didn't want to be caught. I didn't want Matt to hurt like that again, especially not now that I'd figured my sh1t out and knew what I was risking and absolutely didn't want to lose.

I may lose it all anyway. I risked that the first time, and without a doubt callously threw it away the second time, when I had every opportunity to learn instead. But I believe I will never cheat again. I'm still a work in progress, but I think I've identified many of my weaknesses and vulnerabilities that assisted my choice to cheat, and resume the affair, and I am actively working on preventing those from derailing me again. Has your wife looked at those things in her life? Do you feel like she has a plan? Does she share that plan with you? I think that's the only security any WS can offer - knowledge of the choice, a plan for prevention, and demonstrated commitment to that plan. That will likely never be enough to offer you full security. It would certainly be more desirable to believe that the person you love doesn't need such safeguards. But I've wondered lately if we don't ALL use them? I think maybe WS's need a more structured, clear delination of those things, but I think everyone in successful relationships must have them, even if they are inherent, rather than voiced.

*Robsia and Big Mac* I hope this can be the beginning of better things for you. But Mac, it really doesn't happen without full revelation from you. Everything you are thinking about holding back, about "saving" her from knowing, is a knife that will absolutely kill your relationship. I know from experience. Everything that was hidden, or lied about, preyed on Matt's mind. His gut knew. He dug and dug, and I didn't help him until much later. By then he was so exhausted from digging, it practically broke him. And I can't believe I pushed him to that point. I did have to feel like everything was lost before I could finally open up. It's one of the things I am most ashamed of and would go back and change, if at all possible. I was so blinded by my own lies and self-preservation, that it was impossible for me to consider that honesty could possibly help the situation I created.

Robsia, regarding Mac's uneasiness, I can't comment as to whether he is hiding something else. It does seem logical that if there was nothing to hide, there's nothing to be worried about. But I can tell you that even though I have been open with Matt, it is still incredibly stressful for me to revisit the things that I wrote and said to OM. I don't think I have ever been defensive about it, or said anything about "looking forward instead of back" at this point, because I know Matt still needs to evaluate every piece of the puzzle I created. He is welcome to look at anything and everything that I write, read, say or do. I hate my past choices there, and when we go back through them, I ache for the hurt I caused him and for the stupidity and selfishness I exuded. It is hard to face your worst self, and *maybe* that is what Mac is defensive about. I don't know. Only you can work on evaluating that, and I know he is a stranger to you now, which makes that nearly impossible. All I can do each day is hope that time together with Matt can show him my true heart and my true self now, and I hope Mac can show that to you.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Also, welcome back CM, and it's nice to hear from DG again as well. DG, I know exactly how you feel about withdrawing during a tough time, it's hard for me to reach out and not think of myself as "bothering" the other person. So TAM has been a lifesaver in that respect. I post, I PM, and I assume people will ignore me if they don't care or have the time/energy to respond. Often I feel better just by expressing what I'm going through, even if I don't get much response. Journaling does not do the same thing for me, for whatever reason. It just makes me feel more isolated. But please, share everything with us, if you can. God knows, we all need the most help when we feel the most alone.


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## Robsia

Thank you Mrs_M. Sometimes I feel bad that I am going through so much of my own stuff at the moment, I have no energy left to think about or help anyone else on here. It's all take take take with me atm - and I am truly sorry.

I have no experience and no advice for anyone else, I am just desperate for anything, any pearls of wisdom that people can give me.


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## Robsia

Just checking the boob-OW's FB page and there was a friend with the same surname - a young woman - clicked through to hers and the same scan pix were on her profile, with a mention of how painful Braxton Hicks contrax are. So it does look as if the scan is a grand-baby - which is a HUGE relief.


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## TCSRedhead

I'm thinking it might be a good idea to have Mac do a timeline so you can have everything you need to finally know and understand what has happened so you can work with this and begin the healing process.


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## Robsia

^Problem is, he says he can't remember. And he has a tendency to minimise. At first he said there were only "one or two" dates outside of the initial PA.

So far I have identified at least half a dozen.

And initially he said there was only one dating site, when I discovered the other day that there were in fact at least five, although some of them are linked and share details, and all of them I clicked through to and discovered the profiles were inactive. Although me clicking through to them in some cases activated the profiles.

I don't necessarily need to know about every single woman he chatted with, or even every single date - I'll go crazy if I try to view everything separately, each event as a separate betrayal. But knowing when the whole thing started is important, and obviously any other sex partners. He says there are none, other than the two I know about.

I want to believe him. But it's so difficult.

And now when he does tell the truth about something, he is affronted when I doubt him, although the logical part of his mind realises and acknowledges why that is.


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## russell28

TCSRedhead said:


> BigMac - you NEED to sit down and tell her EVERYTHING. This discovery of things will keep happening and keep setting your R back and at some point, your very patient wife will stop waiting and move on with her life. Without you.
> 
> Get it all out in the open - let her know/find it all and be done.


This is why I'm in R with my wife... she got to the point where she answered every question I had, as painful a process as that was. It broke her heart, it broke my heart, but it also gave me hope. I'm about 5 weeks since DDay.. the affair was VERY long term, yet the one reason I'm with her after all that hurt.... She's being honest with me *now*.

Her mother gave her advice to NOT tell me EVERYTHING, if it can't be proven... using the excuse that it would spare me pain... if she took that advice, she'd still be in her mothers house sleeping on an air mattress. She told me that she told her two-time cheater mother that she's done with the lies. Good for her... IC will show her what a bad role model and horrible mother she has. Her mom advised her to gaslight, blameshift and trickle truths... She did none of those things. Score more points for her. She owned up to her actions, and that also made me proud of her and made me feel a tad safer, which at that point is so valuable.

I knew when I was getting the truth by how much it hurt.. I could see it in her eyes, and feel it in my gut.. If I ask a question now, I get an honest answer and we either talk about it, or I let it go depending on the question.


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## russell28

Robsia said:


> ^Problem is, he says he can't remember. And he has a tendency to minimise. At first he said there were only "one or two" dates outside of the initial PA.
> 
> So far I have identified at least half a dozen.
> 
> I don't necessarily need to know about every single woman he chatted with, or even every single date - I'll go crazy if I try to view everything separately, each event as a separate betrayal. But knowing when the whole thing started is important, and obviously any other sex partners. He says there are none, other than the two I know about.
> 
> I want to believe him.


Exactly, all you need to know right now is that he understands the pain he's caused you, that he never wants to do it again, and that he'll do whatever you need him to do that earn that trust back. Starting with telling you only the truth, not bending it, not leaving things out, just 100% honesty. The 'can't remember' thing won't fly. Also trying to minimize anything is insulting to you and another way he can justify his destructive behavior. I wish you all the best.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Robsia said:


> ^Problem is, he says he can't remember. And he has a tendency to minimise. At first he said there were only "one or two" dates outside of the initial PA.
> 
> So far I have identified at least half a dozen.
> 
> I don't necessarily need to know about every single woman he chatted with, or even every single date - I'll go crazy if I try to view everything separately, each event as a separate betrayal. But knowing when the whole thing started is important, and obviously any other sex partners. He says there are none, other than the two I know about.
> 
> I want to believe him.


He needs to STOP minimizing and just recognize the facts of what he's done. He should write a timeline, and HE should be the one to do the research, if he doesn't remember, into when he set up the dating profiles. I assume the sites required payment, so he can pull his own credit card/bank records and discover the first payment. That should be included in the timeline. It is also safe to assume that most sites offered a "free trial" for two weeks to a month before charging him. 

I'd like to believe one of the differences for Matt was when I finally sat down, talked him through the affair, and revealed things that he had not discovered on his own, nor could he have without talking to me or OM. That's when you know you're finally getting somewhere, IMO. I suppose there's no proof that he isn't still hiding more beyond what he gives you, but again, I think your gut will guide you. And Mac, you either do this willingly, or you willingly accept that you not only destroyed your relationship with the affair, but that you doubly destroyed it by letting your own pride, fear, defensiveness, anger, doubt, WHATEVER stand in the way of attempting to meet her needs now, in ANY way she offers to let you. She NEEDS knowledge. She NEEDS trust. Trust is slow. Knowledge can be given freely and immediately. If you don't remember something - do your own research. Show her that you are TRYING to discover what she's asking. Don't just say you don't remember and assume that will be enough for her. It never will. It may be a current honest answer, and that may be something she will have to decide if she can come to terms with. But if you at least show that you are trying to give her what she is asking for, that will help, IMO.


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## TCSRedhead

:iagree: with Mrs. M. If he doesn't remember, then he needs to go research and get all details just as you're doing right now. 

It's not fair to keep adding to this and setting you back with the discovery of these things over and over.


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## EI

Robsia said:


> Thank you Mrs_M. Sometimes I feel bad that I am going through so much of my own stuff at the moment, I have no energy left to think about or help anyone else on here. It's all take take take with me atm - and I am truly sorry.
> 
> I have no experience and no advice for anyone else, I am just desperate for anything, any pearls of wisdom that people can give me.


Don't worry about giving anything back for the time being. That comes much later. I'd been on TAM for at least 4 or 5 months before I felt like I had anything of value to offer anyone here. And, since then I've been contributing eye strain and indigestion, on a regular basis, to anyone who cares to read my ramblings. 

I'm glad you came back to the "R" thread. Everyone with their own unique experience brings something to the table just by sharing their story.


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia, I've been pretty sick and am finally recovering (had to go to urgent care for a bunch of meds). But I've been coming by to read and catch up. 

One thing I've learned recently is to have more compassion for my WS. No, I'm not going to let him rugsweep. But the fact is, our timing is off.

To carry on with the burning analogy, I was burning with the need to know details and my WS was burning with shame.

To show him the cell phone records was to show him a record of a time in his life when he doesn't feel he was acting like himself at all, and he can't even fully explain to himself why he behaved that way (the experts say you may only get partial answers no matter how deep you go into an examination of yourself).

He wanted me to destroy those records as soon as he saw them (I didn't, by the way - I still need the details). It pains him because it causes such (sorry for the psychobabble) cognitive dissonance. His concept of himself is as an honorable, honest man. A man who spoke often about how much he hated people who LIE. This is a written record of HIS LIES. To look at it must make him feel as low or even lower than he felt back then when he had the A.

And he DID feel low, as in his case anxiety and depression figured into his cheating. "Self-medicating" is definitely a factor in this for him. He doesn't want to go back to feeling that way - it was awful. 

He wasn't in love with the OW, so he doesn't need a withdrawal period like some WS's do. But he does need to get himself on more solid footing emotionally so he can handle talking about the A without getting so anxious. In a lot of people, I think men especially, anxiety translates into irritability and defensiveness.

From his point of view, he hasn't been confident he'll "survive" what he sees as my "inquisition" because he feels so guilty and feels he's a bad person. He needs to get to a place where he'll know he'll get credit for the person he was for all the years before he had the A; he's starting to get some of that confidence back as we work at doing things together and for each other (like taking care of each other during sickness).

Our need to know is urgent to us. If they truly love us, their shame may be overwhelming to them, and it may make them recoil at looking back just when we most want them to. (I'm so sick right now, I don't really care, so everything's on hold.) What I'm getting at is that they need to be in a pretty mentally healthy state of mind to be able to look squarely at what may be the worst behavior of their lives and talk it over calmly with us. It might take some time or treatment or couple goodwill building or all of the above for them to get there.


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## russell28

hopefulgirl said:


> Robsia, I've been pretty sick and am finally recovering (had to go to urgent care for a bunch of meds). But I've been coming by to read and catch up.
> 
> One thing I've learned recently is to have more compassion for my WS. No, I'm not going to let him rugsweep. But the fact is, our timing is off.
> 
> To carry on with the burning analogy, I was burning with the need to know details and my WS was burning with shame.
> 
> To show him the cell phone records was to show him a record of a time in his life when he doesn't feel he was acting like himself at all, and he can't even fully explain to himself why he behaved that way (the experts say you may only get partial answers no matter how deep you go into an examination of yourself).
> 
> He wanted me to destroy those records as soon as he saw them (I didn't, by the way - I still need the details). It pains him because it causes such (sorry for the psychobabble) cognitive dissonance. His concept of himself is as an honorable, honest man. A man who spoke often about how much he hated people who LIE. This is a written record of HIS LIES. To look at it must make him feel as low or even lower than he felt back then when he had the A.
> 
> And he DID feel low, as in his case anxiety and depression figured into his cheating. "Self-medicating" is definitely a factor in this for him. He doesn't want to go back to feeling that way - it was awful.
> 
> He wasn't in love with the OW, so he doesn't need a withdrawal period like some WS's do. But he does need to get himself on more solid footing emotionally so he can handle talking about the A without getting so anxious. In a lot of people, I think men especially, anxiety translates into irritability and defensiveness.
> 
> From his point of view, he hasn't been confident he'll "survive" what he sees as my "inquisition" because he feels so guilty and feels he's a bad person. He needs to get to a place where he'll know he'll get credit for the person he was for all the years before he had the A; he's starting to get some of that confidence back as we work at doing things together and for each other (like taking care of each other during sickness).
> 
> Our need to know is urgent to us. If they truly love us, their shame may be overwhelming to them, and it may make them recoil at looking back just when we most want them to. (I'm so sick right now, I don't really care, so everything's on hold.) What I'm getting at is that they need to be in a pretty mentally healthy state of mind to be able to look squarely at what may be the worst behavior of their lives and talk it over calmly with us. It might take some time or treatment or couple goodwill building or all of the above for them to get there.


Assure him that he won't survive unless he starts answering your inquisition.. he has it backwards. The only way he survives is with honesty... He's not helping himself, he's not protecting you... 

If he says he's a bad person, tell him he's not a bad person if he's being faithful and honest to you at that point in time. He's a good person, who did some bad things. He doesn't have to be that person anymore, he can go back to the person he was when he didn't tell lies. Tell him you miss that person and want them back. You can handle the truth.


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## Robsia

Hopefulgirl, that makes a lot of sense from the WS's POV. I was reading bits of Not Just Friends to him today and one thing jumped out at me. I'm paraphrasing now as the book as it his house, but it was something along the lines of when the WS looked into his lover's eyes, he saw admiration reflected back at him. Now, when he looks into his BS's eyes, he sees the disappointment and hurt instead.

When I read that to BigMac, he began to cry 

I went over and hugged him.

He had said before that one of the reasons he had done this was to get affirmation that he was a good person, a nice person, to spend time with women who actually liked him, rather than with me, who didn't really seem to like him a lot.

And now, he has disappointed me so much, he can hardly bear it. What he sees reflected in my eyes is harsh reality, rather than the false admiration of those other women who didn't know who and what he truly was and what he was capable of. And I think he was lost in this false reality, forgetting the very fact that his own actions were evidence of what kind of person he really was.

He has often said that he can't believe what he has done, that he never thought he would ever do anything like this - and yet he did.

Maybe me delving into those emails is forcing him to face up to something he would really rather forget.


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## TCSRedhead

I'll say that my shame in holding back answers and details was further selfishness on my part and held back our R. To be really honest, it nearly cost me the change to R with my husband.

Had I known the progress we would make by getting this in the open, I would have done as soon as possible. 

So, yes, I was ashamed, embarrassed and mentally unstable - but that was not my husband's fault and I don't think it was fair to ask him to wait until I was ready AND to meanwhile expect him to wait on hold until that day came. It would feel like adding further injury to him.


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## ScrewedEverything

hopefulgirl said:


> Our need to know is urgent to us. If they truly love us, their shame may be overwhelming to them, and it may make them recoil at looking back just when we most want them to.


Wow. I only quoted this one sentence but your whole post was so dead on it's incredible.


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## Robsia

BTW - I have asked BigMac to read this. I know he has read it, but I don't know what his thoughts are. I hoped he might respond.


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## BIGMAC2020

Robsia said:


> BTW - I have asked BigMac to read this. I know he has read it, but I don't know what his thoughts are. I hoped he might respond.


I have been reading this and am trying to formulate a reply.

The part about my poor memory has been a fact of our relationship so is not solely a convenience. I understand that pretty much whatever I say is unlikely to be believed and I don't really know what else I can say.

I am ashamed of what I have done and the person I must be to have done it, so what Hopefulgirl said rings so true to me. I want to make things right and regain your lost trust, as you said we are back to square one.


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## Robsia

And I do so want to believe. It's just so damned hard.


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## EI

BIGMAC2020 said:


> I have been reading this and am trying to formulate a reply.
> 
> The part about my poor memory has been a fact of our relationship so is not solely a convenience. I understand that pretty much whatever I say is unlikely to be believed and I don't really know what else I can say.
> 
> I am ashamed of what I have done and the person I must be to have done it, so what Hopefulgirl said rings so true to me. I want to make things right and regain your lost trust, as you said we are back to square one.


Well, Robsia is still there and as you know, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...... So, you're at square one........ Put on your walking boots, start telling the whole truth, all of it, don't leave gaping holes for her to stumble across later, because you never know when she will have had enough. And, she's already proven to you that she will leave no stone unturned in her efforts to learn the whole truth. Whenever she has to "dig" for the truth it is back to square one, again. When you supply the puzzle pieces, as only you can, you are helping her get a clearer picture of the whole puzzle. One that she must have in order to decide if it's worth the investment for her. 

If you want to reconcile, then get busy. There is no way to avoid getting through the going through stages.


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## TCSRedhead

BIGMAC2020 said:


> I have been reading this and am trying to formulate a reply.
> 
> The part about my poor memory has been a fact of our relationship so is not solely a convenience. I understand that pretty much whatever I say is unlikely to be believed and I don't really know what else I can say.
> 
> I am ashamed of what I have done and the person I must be to have done it, so what Hopefulgirl said rings so true to me. I want to make things right and regain your lost trust, as you said we are back to square one.


Mac - this is the part of the process where YOU have to do the heavy lifting. YOU have to do the research and work to find and recall all the details.

This will mean more to her to prove your remorse and willingness to BE the man worthy of R than any words you can offer. It's all about the actions now. 

I believe you can do it, she believe you can do it. Now, you have to believe you can do it.


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## EI

Well, I just looked back to see who snagged the 8000th post while I was trying to take a mini-break. All I can say is..... It figures... Story of my life...... smh 


Yep.......


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> Well, I just looked back to see who snagged the 8000th post while I was trying to take a mini-break. All I can say is..... It figures... Story of my life...... smh
> 
> 
> Yep.......


So who was it?


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## EI

bfree said:


> So who was it?


Oh c'mon, bfree, the fun is in looking it up and seeing the answer!!! 

I'll give you a clue...... It's on page 534!


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## CantSitStill

I know, I couldn't believe it when I saw 1000 on my thread!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Uh oh. 
I was on page 534
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> Was he relieved that I had stopped poking, that I wasn’t going to find anything more? He swears there is no more to find, but then why is he worried? If he has nothing to hide, then he has nothing to worry about, right? I told him that this is something I need to do. How long for, he asks? As long as I need to, I say. If he doesn’t like it, he can leave the room, but I need him to let me look in his iPad and on his phone for as long as I need and as often as I need, if only to verify what he has told me. But also to find out if there is anything he is still hiding.


If GF started re-reading the detailed emails the last OW had sent her after I ditched her (the OW), I would have heart failure. Why, you ask, when she has already read those emails, would I have heart failure? _Because I would be afraid that she would be devastated all over again, or that absorbing those things again would put GF right over the edge and destroy any chance of R._ I am terrified of completely losing her. So I can totally understand Big Mac freaking out, even if there is nothing for you to find.


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## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> Robsia, I've been pretty sick and am finally recovering (had to go to urgent care for a bunch of meds). But I've been coming by to read and catch up.


Glad you're feeling better. :smthumbup: 

Your post had some things I really related to in it, and made me think. I hope you don't mind if I reply.



hopefulgirl said:


> To show him the cell phone records was to show him a record of a time in his life when he doesn't feel he was acting like himself at all, and *he can't even fully explain to himself why he behaved that way (the experts say you may only get partial answers no matter how deep you go into an examination of yourself).*


I can relate to this. I've been pulling myself apart for months trying to understand myself and how and why I was able to cheat. I'm still finding the answers. They don't come all at once, and sometimes I have mini-epiphanies while reading things on TAM. Something will be bothering me, I'll be grasping for the understanding needed to express it in words...and then, AH HA! I see something here that totally resonates, and I GET it. The more I talk about it and explore it, the more I understand, and the more I can communicate with GF and answer some of the deeper questions.

I was in love with how the EAs made me feel. It was definitely an addiction of some kind. The APs were APs precisely because they were willing to idealize and adore me, and allowed me to build an image of a perfect self with them that they would then reflect back to me. Interacting with them reinforced this, and I was dependent on those feelings. But looking into GF's eyes...I saw the faulty, incomplete, and imperfect real self reflected. I wasn't just brought down to earth, I was on the ground eating dirt. I saw the criticism and my failure to be the partner she wanted. I felt like I could never be good enough for her no matter how hard I tried. I didn't know what to do and I couldn't cope with how I felt, so I ran away.  (Which was, in retrospect, so incredibly stupid a response. Because now I've gone way beyond letting GF down. I feel a thousand times worse, and have so much to be ashamed of.)


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## hopefulgirl

TCSRedhead said:


> I'll say that my shame in holding back answers and details was further selfishness on my part and held back our R. To be really honest, it nearly cost me the change to R with my husband.
> 
> Had I known the progress we would make by getting this in the open, I would have done as soon as possible.
> 
> So, yes, I was ashamed, embarrassed and mentally unstable - but that was not my husband's fault and I don't think it was fair to ask him to wait until I was ready AND to meanwhile expect him to wait on hold until that day came. It would feel like adding further injury to him.


This is where it gets tricky for some of us. When someone has a diagnosed mental disorder, how much holding back is selfishness and how much is brain chemistry? 

Shouldn't I give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume it's not all selfishness?

If a WS is in the process of addressing an anxiety disorder (or depression, or some other disorder), it might be in the couple's best interest to consider holding off on some of the tough questioning sessions while the WS is getting better.

It's easier for me to say that now because I'm sick and I don't much care about asking about anything. When I'm in full on detective mode, I want to know everything and I want to know it now - but that's MY brain chemistry going wild. We get obsessive about this, which is one of the normal reactions to a trauma of this kind.

So do I ask him to have compassion for my obsessiveness but have no compassion for his anxiety?

His doc recently changed his medication so I'm waiting to see how this goes; he's trying to get better and I think it best to wait until he's on more solid footing.


----------



## TCSRedhead

hopefulgirl said:


> So do I ask him to have compassion for my obsessiveness but have no compassion for his anxiety?


My two cents? Your obsessiveness was CAUSED by his selfishness, so the concern really should be about getting it all out in the open so it can be resolved. 

Otherwise, it feels like a big open festering wound that someone keeps picking at and rubbing in dirt.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> Oh c'mon, bfree, the fun is in looking it up and seeing the answer!!!
> 
> I'll give you a clue...... It's on page 534!


I'm on my phone. It would take me hours to go back that far. Oh well. I guess have to wonder.


----------



## calvin

Come on EI! Who was it??
I'll open up a can of whoop azz on them!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

There was a time a long time ago where the exOM left Calvin a nasty voicemail saying I'm a ***** and that Calvin would love to watch me f -ing a bunch of guys at once and that I had an abortion and that my kids are messed up. All of this I know from Calvin telling me but I have major anxiety disorder and never listened to the voicemail. Calvin understood. He knew I really couldn't handle hearing that jackass' voice without havinga panic attack. We turned it into the police and I still didn't have to listen to it. It's hard having panic disorder real bad like I do but it's also hard to live with someone that has it. It takes a lot of patience to live with someone with anxiety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> There was a time a long time ago where the exOM left Calvin a nasty voicemail saying I'm a ***** and that Calvin would love to watch me f -ing a bunch of guys at once and that I had an abortion and that my kids are messed up. All of this I know from Calvin telling me but I have major anxiety disorder and never listened to the voicemail. Calvin understood. He knew I really couldn't handle hearing that jackass' voice without havinga panic attack. We turned it into the police and I still didn't have to listen to it. It's hard having panic disorder real bad like I do but it's also hard to live with someone that has it. It takes a lot of patience to live with someone with anxiety.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's digusting,calls for a year from him and he said worse than that,I'm glad I had a big hand in ruining his life.
People wonder why I want to jack his jaw,he earned it.
Coward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Yeah well my point was I totally get the anxiety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Yeah well my point was I totally get the anxiety.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah,it can get bad sometimes.
That's alright,gives me another excuse to hold and hug you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

bfree said:


> I'm on my phone. It would take me hours to go back that far. Oh well. I guess have to wonder.


Ok I'm home. I'll go look and see who got post #8000
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
OH NO IT WAS ME!!!!

I'm in trouble now


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Ok I'm home. I'll go look and see who got post #8000
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> OH NO IT WAS ME!!!!
> 
> I'm in trouble now


Dibs on 9000!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Ok I'm home. I'll go look and see who got post #8000
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> OH NO IT WAS ME!!!!
> 
> I'm in trouble now


It wasn't you :scratchhead: ..... It was ScrewedEverything...... That turkey must have deleted his post when he read my comment. Are newbies skeered of me, ya think?  I'm not skeery....... most of the time. 

Hello, ScrewedEverything, welcome to the "R" thread. As long as you don't post on any comment ending in _,000 we'll get along just fine..... !! 

:rules:And, I'm warning you people waaaaaaay in advance that nobody better even think about touching the 10,000th post. But, that's a while away.......


----------



## EI

hopefulgirl said:


> This is where it gets tricky for some of us. When someone has a diagnosed mental disorder, how much holding back is selfishness and how much is brain chemistry?
> 
> Shouldn't I give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume it's not all selfishness?
> 
> If a WS is in the process of addressing an anxiety disorder (or depression, or some other disorder), it might be in the couple's best interest to consider holding off on some of the tough questioning sessions while the WS is getting better.
> 
> It's easier for me to say that now because I'm sick and I don't much care about asking about anything. When I'm in full on detective mode, I want to know everything and I want to know it now - but that's MY brain chemistry going wild. We get obsessive about this, which is one of the normal reactions to a trauma of this kind.
> 
> So do I ask him to have compassion for my obsessiveness but have no compassion for his anxiety?
> 
> His doc recently changed his medication so I'm waiting to see how this goes; he's trying to get better and I think it best to wait until he's on more solid footing.



I just wanted to tell you that I hope you start feeling better soon....


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> It wasn't you :scratchhead: ..... It was ScrewedEverything...... That turkey must have deleted his post when he read my comment. Are newbies skeered of me, ya think?  I'm not skeery....... most of the time.
> 
> Hello, ScrewedEverything, welcome to the "R" thread. As long as you don't post on any comment ending in _,000 we'll get along just fine..... !!
> 
> :rules:And, I'm warning you people waaaaaaay in advance that nobody better even think about touching the 10,000th post. But, that's a while away.......


So I'm safe? Can I take off my hockey helmet now? ray:


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> So I'm safe? Can I take off my hockey helmet now? ray:


Just delete an earlier post and someone else cops it


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh it won't take long at all to get to a thousand the way this thread goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

_Acceptance in human psychology is a person's assent to the reality of a situation, recognizing a process or condition (often a negative or uncomfortable situation) without attempting to change it, protest, or exit._

Driving to work this morning something hit me, *I have to accept this A! *

I have come to a point where I know I now must accept what happened. I cannot fight it any longer, not that I was consciously fighting this, but I believe subconsciously I was. I cannot continue to resist the fact my wife had an A. I cannot continue to seek some type of justice from this act of betrayal. Whether it’s from her or him I can’t get justice from this. It simply is one of those things in life that’s just not fair. They got to have this time together and I can’t do a thing about it. It’s done, it’s over, they had their time together and I can’t change that.

There is no justice, it isn't fair, I cannot get even. In a way they did get away with it, then. My wife and her AP got to have a great time for 15 months. During that time they enjoyed each other immensely, they were excited to be together, there was passion, love, romance, they had a lot of great times together, they had joy together, happy times together, they cuddled, kissed and held hands, they had dinners and lunches, they hugged and laughed together, they went for rides together, they made plans together, and I had no clue it was happening. All this has to be accepted, NOT that it's ok, but it just has to be accepted to move on. They are no more, they are past, what they did is done and there is no amount of payment to take away the hurt and damage it caused. I am hurt, wounded; I have to accept that too. I have to accept that the AP gets away with all this without a scratch, he pays no consequences, and to top all this off, he leaves this A having great memories with MY wife. There is NO justice, I have to accept that.


Granted, EI doesn't think it's great now, she is truly sorry and I know she’s sorry. But, the reality of it all is this. My wife was dating another man while married to me. She was in love with him, in lust with him, wanted to be with him forever, and she was not in love with me. I have to stop fighting this, and trying to pick it apart, it is what it is. It happened and I cannot change it, alter it or make it ok. I must learn to accept it and move on. It's not ok, but it did happen and again, I cannot change that. No words will change it, nothing I do will change it, no amount of talking will change it, no amount of saying mean things about it will change it, and no amount of fussing will change it. 

Sometimes I want to tell EI the gory details of my imagination I have of the two of them together, that will not change anything either. I have to accept it all. With words, I cannot make EI feel bad enough to make me feel better. I cannot rub it in her face so to speak until I feel better. I have to accept that they did this and I can't do a thing about it. If I D it doesn't change what happened and if I stay it doesn't change what happened. IT happened and I must accept that fact to move on.

It’s almost like I see the puzzle now but I don’t want to acknowledge it, I don’t like it, the picture is ugly and I want to protest it. I want to rearrange the pieces, make them different, I want to say this isn’t what I wanted. Though nothing I say will change the picture before me, no amount of stomping, screaming will change it. It is what it is and I have to accept it. As ugly as it is ALL the pieces fit nice and snug, they can't be altered.

It hurts, I cannot change that either. However, I need to stop protesting it and accept it. I believe now that accepting what happened is key to my happiness and our happiness. Accepting this A, NOT saying it's ok, NOT resigning myself to it, but accepting it and know that things can and will be better is key for me now, it's key for my marriage and key to a happy healthy marriage and life. 

You can fight this battle forever and ever and you will never win. You will never get even, you will never be able to heap your hurt on your spouse, you will never be able to convey the depth of your pain, you will never be able to make your spouse hurt like you do over this. There is only one way out of this mess, accept it and move on to better things. What is the alternative, not accept it, live in this turmoil forever and never be happy, we only live once and I don’t want to waste my life living in a state of non acceptance. 

EI, you hurt me by having this emotional and physical A. You lied to me, deceived me and betrayed me. I also hurt you, neglected you and left you alone. We did not do to well without each other did we? We failed miserably, we messed up bad. United we stand, divided we fell. I choose to be united again.

I choose to accept this A, it may take a while longer, but I love EI and I want true happiness for us both. I want a healthy, happy marriage with her. 

I now want happiness along with acceptance.

*On a side note, I will not be on near as much. I will definitely take off this weekend. TAM has been triggering me lately and it's not good for us. EI however will still be around. My triggering makes me ask questions, EI, as always, will answer them but it's hard on her. She hates what she did; my questions simply make her relive the worse thing she ever did. I don't want her down and depressed, I want her happy and upbeat. I need that. I have to accept things as they are and stop the questions. TAM has been causing me to ask questions, mostly re-asking old ones too, or digging for more details. So, I will be taking another break and see if it helps.


_Acceptance doesn't mean resignation; it means understanding that something is what it is and that there's got to be a way through it. -Michael J. Fox_


----------



## russell28

B1 said:


> _Acceptance in human psychology is a person's assent to the reality of a situation, recognizing a process or condition (often a negative or uncomfortable situation) without attempting to change it, protest, or exit._
> 
> Driving to work this morning something hit me, *I have to accept this A! *
> 
> I have come to a point where I know I now must accept what happened. I cannot fight it any longer, not that I was consciously fighting this, but I believe subconsciously I was. I cannot continue to resist the fact my wife had an A. I cannot continue to seek some type of justice from this act of betrayal. Whether it’s from her or him I can’t get justice from this. It simply is one of those things in life that’s just not fair. They got to have this time together and I can’t do a thing about it. It’s done, it’s over, they had their time together and I can’t change that.
> 
> There is no justice, it isn't fair, I cannot get even. In a way they did get away with it, then. My wife and her AP got to have a great time for 15 months. During that time they enjoyed each other immensely, they were excited to be together, there was passion, love, romance, they had a lot of great times together, they had joy together, happy times together, they cuddled, kissed and held hands, they had dinners and lunches, they hugged and laughed together, they went for rides together, they made plans together, and I had no clue it was happening. All this has to be accepted, NOT that it's ok, but it just has to be accepted to move on. They are no more, they are past, what they did is done and there is no amount of payment to take away the hurt and damage it caused. I am hurt, wounded; I have to accept that too. I have to accept that the AP gets away with all this without a scratch, he pays no consequences, and to top all this off, he leaves this A having great memories with MY wife. There is NO justice, I have to accept that.
> 
> 
> Granted, EI doesn't think it's great now, she is truly sorry and I know she’s sorry. But, the reality of it all is this. My wife was dating another man while married to me. She was in love with him, in lust with him, wanted to be with him forever, and she was not in love with me. I have to stop fighting this, and trying to pick it apart, it is what it is. It happened and I cannot change it, alter it or make it ok. I must learn to accept it and move on. It's not ok, but it did happen and again, I cannot change that. No words will change it, nothing I do will change it, no amount of talking will change it, no amount of saying mean things about it will change it, and no amount of fussing will change it.
> 
> Sometimes I want to tell EI the gory details of my imagination I have of the two of them together, that will not change anything either. I have to accept it all. With words, I cannot make EI feel bad enough to make me feel better. I cannot rub it in her face so to speak until I feel better. I have to accept that they did this and I can't do a thing about it. If I D it doesn't change what happened and if I stay it doesn't change what happened. IT happened and I must accept that fact to move on.
> 
> It’s almost like I see the puzzle now but I don’t want to acknowledge it, I don’t like it, the picture is ugly and I want to protest it. I want to rearrange the pieces, make them different, I want to say this isn’t what I wanted. Though nothing I say will change the picture before me, no amount of stomping, screaming will change it. It is what it is and I have to accept it. As ugly as it is ALL the pieces fit nice and snug, they can't be altered.
> 
> It hurts, I cannot change that either. However, I need to stop protesting it and accept it. I believe now that accepting what happened is key to my happiness and our happiness. Accepting this A, NOT saying it's ok, NOT resigning myself to it, but accepting it and know that things can and will be better is key for me now, it's key for my marriage and key to a happy healthy marriage and life.
> 
> You can fight this battle forever and ever and you will never win. You will never get even, you will never be able to heap your hurt on your spouse, you will never be able to convey the depth of your pain, you will never be able to make your spouse hurt like you do over this. There is only one way out of this mess, accept it and move on to better things. What is the alternative, not accept it, live in this turmoil forever and never be happy, we only live once and I don’t want to waste my life living in a state of non acceptance.
> 
> EI, you hurt me by having this emotional and physical A. You lied to me, deceived me and betrayed me. I also hurt you, neglected you and left you alone. We did not do to well without each other did we? We failed miserably, we messed up bad. United we stand, divided we fell. I choose to be united again.
> 
> I choose to accept this A, it may take a while longer, but I love EI and I want true happiness for us both. I want a healthy, happy marriage with her.
> 
> I now want happiness along with acceptance.
> 
> *On a side note, I will not be on near as much. I will definitely take off this weekend. TAM has been triggering me lately and it's not good for us. EI however will still be around. My triggering makes me ask questions, EI, as always, will answer them but it's hard on her. She hates what she did; my questions simply make her relive the worse thing she ever did. I don't want her down and depressed, I want her happy and upbeat. I need that. I have to accept things as they are and stop the questions. TAM has been causing me to ask questions, mostly re-asking old ones too, or digging for more details. So, I will be taking another break and see if it helps.
> 
> 
> _Acceptance doesn't mean resignation; it means understanding that something is what it is and that there's got to be a way through it. -Michael J. Fox_


Amen. Hang in there brother...

I need to stop the digging as well, and will also be taking a break for the same reasons you mention. Too early for me to be trying to help anyone but myself.... as good as it feels to try.


----------



## happyman64

B1

This says it all in so many ways.

* We failed miserably, we messed up bad. United we stand, divided we fell. I choose to be united again.*

And I hope in time you feel "confident" again in saying "We choose to be united again!".

Because then we will know you are fully healed......

You and EI have a great weekend.

HM64


----------



## Acabado

It was a insightful post B1. Saved it just in case. Thanks.

Enjoy the break.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thank you, B1. I wish all the best things for you and EI going forward. You each deserve it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

B1,

I divorced and it didn't change a thing either. I still triggered. I still had questions (but no answers). I still had my thoughts and imagination. I was haunted for years because I wouldn't accept what happened. I fought tooth and nail. And it nearly destroyed me. Lord what I had to go through in order to get to the other side. What I had to endure in order to love again. Was it worth it? I look at Mrs bfree and I say yes it was worth it. But then I think back to my life during that time period and I have to wonder. Sometimes I think to myself am I really happy or is it simply relief that I don't hurt anymore. You're right, accepting it is the only way through. I'm not sure I ever accepted it. I fought it. I ran from it. Finally I just surrendered. Is that acceptance? I don't really know. Maybe I'll never know.


----------



## StarGazer101

B1 Thank you for the post above. I have been having a hard time recently and having read your words I see now that it's acceptance that I am struggling with. I too need to accept and move on from the things I cannot change. 

I had thought that by a year past DDay that I would have accepted the reality of Lister's A and be ready to move on. I realise now that I still haven't .... much as I want to. I seem to be stuck with the awful thoughts and pictures still popping into my head hundreds of times a day ...even on the good days. He tells me he loves me and I can't believe that he truly does. I doubt him, I doubt myself and my ability to heal and get past this.

I know I love him, and I see him every day doing things to let me see he is sorry and that he cares for me, but I still hurt and I still doubt that he could do what he did and then come to love me again. I wish I could let go and move on ....maybe by focusing on achieving acceptance I will be able to. I will try.

I hope taking your break from TAM will do you good - you deserve the happiness you seek. Thank you again B1


----------



## BURNT KEP

B1 said:


> _Acceptance in human psychology is a person's assent to the reality of a situation, recognizing a process or condition (often a negative or uncomfortable situation) without attempting to change it, protest, or exit._
> 
> Driving to work this morning something hit me, *I have to accept this A! *
> 
> I have come to a point where I know I now must accept what happened. I cannot fight it any longer, not that I was consciously fighting this, but I believe subconsciously I was. I cannot continue to resist the fact my wife had an A. I cannot continue to seek some type of justice from this act of betrayal. Whether it’s from her or him I can’t get justice from this. It simply is one of those things in life that’s just not fair. They got to have this time together and I can’t do a thing about it. It’s done, it’s over, they had their time together and I can’t change that.
> 
> There is no justice, it isn't fair, I cannot get even. In a way they did get away with it, then. My wife and her AP got to have a great time for 15 months. During that time they enjoyed each other immensely, they were excited to be together, there was passion, love, romance, they had a lot of great times together, they had joy together, happy times together, they cuddled, kissed and held hands, they had dinners and lunches, they hugged and laughed together, they went for rides together, they made plans together, and I had no clue it was happening. All this has to be accepted, NOT that it's ok, but it just has to be accepted to move on. They are no more, they are past, what they did is done and there is no amount of payment to take away the hurt and damage it caused. I am hurt, wounded; I have to accept that too. I have to accept that the AP gets away with all this without a scratch, he pays no consequences, and to top all this off, he leaves this A having great memories with MY wife. There is NO justice, I have to accept that.
> 
> 
> Granted, EI doesn't think it's great now, she is truly sorry and I know she’s sorry. But, the reality of it all is this. My wife was dating another man while married to me. She was in love with him, in lust with him, wanted to be with him forever, and she was not in love with me. I have to stop fighting this, and trying to pick it apart, it is what it is. It happened and I cannot change it, alter it or make it ok. I must learn to accept it and move on. It's not ok, but it did happen and again, I cannot change that. No words will change it, nothing I do will change it, no amount of talking will change it, no amount of saying mean things about it will change it, and no amount of fussing will change it.
> 
> Sometimes I want to tell EI the gory details of my imagination I have of the two of them together, that will not change anything either. I have to accept it all. With words, I cannot make EI feel bad enough to make me feel better. I cannot rub it in her face so to speak until I feel better. I have to accept that they did this and I can't do a thing about it. If I D it doesn't change what happened and if I stay it doesn't change what happened. IT happened and I must accept that fact to move on.
> 
> It’s almost like I see the puzzle now but I don’t want to acknowledge it, I don’t like it, the picture is ugly and I want to protest it. I want to rearrange the pieces, make them different, I want to say this isn’t what I wanted. Though nothing I say will change the picture before me, no amount of stomping, screaming will change it. It is what it is and I have to accept it. As ugly as it is ALL the pieces fit nice and snug, they can't be altered.
> 
> It hurts, I cannot change that either. However, I need to stop protesting it and accept it. I believe now that accepting what happened is key to my happiness and our happiness. Accepting this A, NOT saying it's ok, NOT resigning myself to it, but accepting it and know that things can and will be better is key for me now, it's key for my marriage and key to a happy healthy marriage and life.
> 
> You can fight this battle forever and ever and you will never win. You will never get even, you will never be able to heap your hurt on your spouse, you will never be able to convey the depth of your pain, you will never be able to make your spouse hurt like you do over this. There is only one way out of this mess, accept it and move on to better things. What is the alternative, not accept it, live in this turmoil forever and never be happy, we only live once and I don’t want to waste my life living in a state of non acceptance.
> 
> EI, you hurt me by having this emotional and physical A. You lied to me, deceived me and betrayed me. I also hurt you, neglected you and left you alone. We did not do to well without each other did we? We failed miserably, we messed up bad. United we stand, divided we fell. I choose to be united again.
> 
> I choose to accept this A, it may take a while longer, but I love EI and I want true happiness for us both. I want a healthy, happy marriage with her.
> 
> I now want happiness along with acceptance.
> 
> *On a side note, I will not be on near as much. I will definitely take off this weekend. TAM has been triggering me lately and it's not good for us. EI however will still be around. My triggering makes me ask questions, EI, as always, will answer them but it's hard on her. She hates what she did; my questions simply make her relive the worse thing she ever did. I don't want her down and depressed, I want her happy and upbeat. I need that. I have to accept things as they are and stop the questions. TAM has been causing me to ask questions, mostly re-asking old ones too, or digging for more details. So, I will be taking another break and see if it helps.
> 
> 
> _Acceptance doesn't mean resignation; it means understanding that something is what it is and that there's got to be a way through it. -Michael J. Fox_


Easier said then done.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



BURNT KEP said:


> Easier said then done.


Isn't everything in life easier said than done?


----------



## BURNT KEP

bfree said:


> Isn't everything in life easier said than done?


True but I can tell myself to get over it but my mind has other ideas.


----------



## jh52

B1 said:


> _Acceptance in human psychology is a person's assent to the reality of a situation, recognizing a process or condition (often a negative or uncomfortable situation) without attempting to change it, protest, or exit._
> 
> Driving to work this morning something hit me, *I have to accept this A! *
> 
> I have come to a point where I know I now must accept what happened. I cannot fight it any longer, not that I was consciously fighting this, but I believe subconsciously I was. I cannot continue to resist the fact my wife had an A. I cannot continue to seek some type of justice from this act of betrayal. Whether it’s from her or him I can’t get justice from this. It simply is one of those things in life that’s just not fair. They got to have this time together and I can’t do a thing about it. It’s done, it’s over, they had their time together and I can’t change that.
> 
> There is no justice, it isn't fair, I cannot get even. In a way they did get away with it, then. My wife and her AP got to have a great time for 15 months. During that time they enjoyed each other immensely, they were excited to be together, there was passion, love, romance, they had a lot of great times together, they had joy together, happy times together, they cuddled, kissed and held hands, they had dinners and lunches, they hugged and laughed together, they went for rides together, they made plans together, and I had no clue it was happening. All this has to be accepted, NOT that it's ok, but it just has to be accepted to move on. They are no more, they are past, what they did is done and there is no amount of payment to take away the hurt and damage it caused. I am hurt, wounded; I have to accept that too. I have to accept that the AP gets away with all this without a scratch, he pays no consequences, and to top all this off, he leaves this A having great memories with MY wife. There is NO justice, I have to accept that.
> 
> 
> Granted, EI doesn't think it's great now, she is truly sorry and I know she’s sorry. But, the reality of it all is this. My wife was dating another man while married to me. She was in love with him, in lust with him, wanted to be with him forever, and she was not in love with me. I have to stop fighting this, and trying to pick it apart, it is what it is. It happened and I cannot change it, alter it or make it ok. I must learn to accept it and move on. It's not ok, but it did happen and again, I cannot change that. No words will change it, nothing I do will change it, no amount of talking will change it, no amount of saying mean things about it will change it, and no amount of fussing will change it.
> 
> Sometimes I want to tell EI the gory details of my imagination I have of the two of them together, that will not change anything either. I have to accept it all. With words, I cannot make EI feel bad enough to make me feel better. I cannot rub it in her face so to speak until I feel better. I have to accept that they did this and I can't do a thing about it. If I D it doesn't change what happened and if I stay it doesn't change what happened. IT happened and I must accept that fact to move on.
> 
> It’s almost like I see the puzzle now but I don’t want to acknowledge it, I don’t like it, the picture is ugly and I want to protest it. I want to rearrange the pieces, make them different, I want to say this isn’t what I wanted. Though nothing I say will change the picture before me, no amount of stomping, screaming will change it. It is what it is and I have to accept it. As ugly as it is ALL the pieces fit nice and snug, they can't be altered.
> 
> It hurts, I cannot change that either. However, I need to stop protesting it and accept it. I believe now that accepting what happened is key to my happiness and our happiness. Accepting this A, NOT saying it's ok, NOT resigning myself to it, but accepting it and know that things can and will be better is key for me now, it's key for my marriage and key to a happy healthy marriage and life.
> 
> You can fight this battle forever and ever and you will never win. You will never get even, you will never be able to heap your hurt on your spouse, you will never be able to convey the depth of your pain, you will never be able to make your spouse hurt like you do over this. There is only one way out of this mess, accept it and move on to better things. What is the alternative, not accept it, live in this turmoil forever and never be happy, we only live once and I don’t want to waste my life living in a state of non acceptance.
> 
> EI, you hurt me by having this emotional and physical A. You lied to me, deceived me and betrayed me. I also hurt you, neglected you and left you alone. We did not do to well without each other did we? We failed miserably, we messed up bad. United we stand, divided we fell. I choose to be united again.
> 
> I choose to accept this A, it may take a while longer, but I love EI and I want true happiness for us both. I want a healthy, happy marriage with her.
> 
> I now want happiness along with acceptance.
> 
> *On a side note, I will not be on near as much. I will definitely take off this weekend. TAM has been triggering me lately and it's not good for us. EI however will still be around. My triggering makes me ask questions, EI, as always, will answer them but it's hard on her. She hates what she did; my questions simply make her relive the worse thing she ever did. I don't want her down and depressed, I want her happy and upbeat. I need that. I have to accept things as they are and stop the questions. TAM has been causing me to ask questions, mostly re-asking old ones too, or digging for more details. So, I will be taking another break and see if it helps.
> 
> 
> _Acceptance doesn't mean resignation; it means understanding that something is what it is and that there's got to be a way through it. -Michael J. Fox_


B1 -- you are focusing more and more on the future looking ahead. I have stated this to you before -- the "old" marriage is dead, the "old" EI is dead, the "old B1" is dead -- you both have to recognize this -- and I believe you both have and gone through the grieving process. This is nothing to be ashamed of -- just something that takes time -- and it's almost a year.

Having said this -- recognize the "new" B1 and the "new" EI and you are both going to say "new" vows to each other -- rejoice in the new people you both have become, the new "dating" relationship you both have and the day next June when say those "new" vows.

You both have come a long way this year -- next year will be better and each year forward will be better. As more time goes by, the memories will fade for you both -- they will never fade away completely -- but the new memories will be what you will remember the most.

Have a great holiday weekend.


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## Robsia

It is my daughter’s 12th birthday today. She was at school so I spent the afternoon at BigMac’s again.

Last night we FT-ed. He has read the comments on here and taken them on board. With reference to the doing the research, he says he is happy to as far as he can but he’s not sure what I need to know, and he doesn’t keep all emails. He also said that sometimes I seem to want to know details and sometimes I don’t, so he is getting mixed messages about whether he should be telling me stuff, which I understand.

He said yesterday his getting defensive about the emails came from a place of shame, that me digging and unearthing stuff that he’d rather keep hidden from the world and forget about makes him face up to what he has done all over again. 

He did say that he had gone back and looked through his emails and the earliest message he had found from the dating website was 8th July. I moved out on 28th June, which means he joined the site not long after I had gone – probably pretty much immediately, in a sort of “F*** you – you’ve left, let’s see what else is out there!” kind of thing. EVEN THOUGH he had suggested we carry on our relationship, just in different houses. He STILL joined a dating site which hurts incredibly. But now I know, I can deal with it, and try to understand it. I know that he did not meet up with anyone during July as his foot was in plaster and he couldn’t drive, or for the first two weeks in August as we were in Scotland together, but he did meet someone at the end of August.

So basically, for this last year we both bailed out of our marriage. Me because I moved out and left him, and him because he started looking elsewhere. I realised I was very selfish. I wanted the good parts that come with having a husband, the companionship (but only when I wanted it) and the sex, but not the hassle of a husband, the actual living with someone and changing your life for them and having to be unselfish and not get your way sometimes. I wanted it both ways. I put myself before our marriage, and so did he.

Whilst none of this excuses his infidelity, given that he made a promise to me that he promptly broke, but it is a factor in the circumstances that led up to it.

So, I got to thinking. We have identified two of the major causes of our problems which led to me moving out. One is poor communication and the other – far more important – was our lack of ability to resolve any kind of conflict. I avoided it like the plague, while he blew up and said nasty cruel things.

We are both having counselling, me for help with my Asperger’s so I can identify my own issues and how to either control them, or to explain to BigMac how to make things easier for me, him for his anger managements issues and both of us for MC.

I realised that I was right last summer. You can’t have a marriage in two different houses. It’s insane. It doesn’t work. We proved that. So, the only answer is for me to move back in again.

I thought about it a lot all this morning and when I went round in the afternoon I proposed it to BigMac. He was surprised to say the least, given that I had told him categorically I couldn’t see myself ever moving in with him again, and certainly not in “that house” which was the house he had lived in with his wife before we met.

But I explained my reasons. I also said it wasn't a decision we could make now. I needed to wait at least two or three months, until I was absolutely certain I knew everything I needed to know about his behaviour over the last year, and also not until we had certain strategies in place to deal with our issues, which won’t happen until the MC is established and we’ve started working together on it. It’s not enough to identify them, we have to learn new ways of dealing with them.

I am terrified. I don’t want to go back to the way things were before I left. There were bloody good reasons for leaving. I would rather be without him completely than go back to that. BUT if we can resolve our issues, then we can only work on our marriage successfully if we are together.

It’s scary for both of us, because we have both discovered we like our own space. We’ll have to learn how to compromise. This last year has been a massive kick up the backside for us. He has learned that if he behaves like a d*ck, I will leave him. And I have learned that if I want to be married to someone, I have to be a lot more unselfish and controlling than I was. I can’t have a part-time marriage, It’s either all or nothing.

We still have a LOT of issues we need to work out before we can move back in together, compromises and practicalities that need to be negotiated in advance, but at least we now know that is the eventual aim.

I’m very scared and I don’t know if it will work, but I do know that I love him and I want to try.

My worst case scenario would be that for these next three months we both try out best, are on best behaviour and I take the plunge and decide to move us all back in again (it’s not just a case of packing a few boxes – I have a houseful of furniture and stuff so it’s a full-scale move) and then we revert back to our old ways and it’s just as bad as it was before, which would mean me uprooting my girls yet again and leaving. If it were just me I would be happier to take the chance, but children need stability. We’ve already moved twice in the space of less than a year. So I need time to make sure that it is the right decision.


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## TCSRedhead

I think if you're going to commit to reconcile, that it's best to do it under the same roof. 

It sounds like you guys are setting up some great opportunities to try things on and make sure you're ready for this.

Communication is a HUGE item to work on. Even if it seems mechanical and forced at first, keep at it until it becomes more natural. 

I'm rooting for you both!


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



BURNT KEP said:


> True but I can tell myself to get over it but my mind has other ideas.


So you reprogram your mind. We do it all the time.


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## MattMatt

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Mt wife's a high functioning Asperger's. 

Sometimes it's not fun...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

MattMatt said:


> Mt wife's a high functioning Asperger's.
> 
> Sometimes it's not fun...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You and BigMac should exchange notes.

What do you find most challenging about living with an Aspie?

I'm quite new to the realisation myself, although I'm 40 and have been like this all my life. Not formally diagnosed yet but at my initial assessment I scored 37 on the AQ test which is pretty damned high - the average 'normal' person gets about 16, so they are putting me in for a formal diagnostic test but there's a waiting list as it's on the NHS. But it's free so I can't really complain/


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## bfree

Robsia, I know you are worried. I know you are scared. But I hope you realize that this is a true milestone. Just the fact that you are viewing your marriage in these ways is huge. I realize that this is just the first of many steps that you and Mac will have to take but you both should be extremely proud and heartened.


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## mintypeas

hello again to everyone sorry not been on but have been busy still reading this wonderful thread and i now feel ready to tell our story. well dday was 14th april a day before my birthday i had had my suspisions for a while as wh never left his phone anywhere and we got contract phones and i saw a number keep coming up and strange times and when i was at work in the evenings. he also still had his old phone which he left by the bed and i went through and it all started from there. he said that they were just friends and had not been talking long. so we started to work on us he was not able to tell me why. fast forward a week and he had told me about kik messenging which had been removed from his phone so i loaded the app again and bluffed him that i could see messages and i wanted to know if they had been sexual and they had exchanged flirty texts twice. fast forward a nother week and i had this unbearable urge to text her so i did. well they met on a dating site and my husband was single 28(37 really) and was looking for friendship maybe more. he had told her he loved her and it had been going on for 10 months. he had lied to her from the start and through talking to him and getting him to open up we find out that she had told him all lies too. the reason they started talking was because she told him her twin sister had been killed in the town that we live well i investigated this and it was a lie. there is more to all that but please ask me if you want to know anything. well we are 6 weeks after dday and its been very hard but this thread has helped us so much. i know my old marriage is dead and that my wh died with it but the man he is becoming now is so different and working so hard to make me love him again. we have a 2 year old and my 2 kids that are 16 and 21 so we are a family and we have all been affected by this betrayal. but i see a man in front of me that is so remorseful and trying so hard. sorry for the ramble but this is the first time i have been able to get my story out to anyone. thankyou so much for listening and helping us start our new marriage with lots of hope xxx


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## jupiter13

B1 you said it all. It still hurts like hell. It will always hurt like hell and there is NOT ONE THING ANYONE CAN DO TO CHANGE IT! We as BS will always be hurt by this and if we don't learn to accept it it will destroy our souls in the end. 
It was not by our choice to have this happen to us to know this kind of pain. However it is by our choice how we are going to handle it.
Thank you B1 for your post and I hope you and E1 the best of luck, look forward to more in the future. 

Have a great weekend everyone as the Memorial Weekend Seems to have started in our neck of the woods. Who let everyone off work at the same time. I have to drive in this....:wtf: These people are crazy.....


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## BURNT KEP

bfree said:


> So you reprogram your mind. We do it all the time.


Any suggestions on how?


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## CantSitStill

Mintypeas, thank you for sharing your story...yes it sucks to be here and to have been betrayed. The good news is, from your post it sounds like this may be reconcilable. They both had false delusions of eachother. That's kinda how my EA was. The ex om lied and lied and lied. Also your hubby being remorseful and willing to work on your relationship is good, as long as he is not blaming you. A lot of WS' blameshift to try not to feel the guilt. I blamed everything on my husband and refused to see my own faults. Thank God I see a ton of things I did wrong in our marriage now and am working on those things. I still struggle with my problem of interrupting my husband instead of letting him finish what he says..I need to do a better job of that. Anyway, I hope you two can get some MC and work through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hopefully Matt will be arriving home soon. Wish me luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Hopefully Matt will be arriving home soon. Wish me luck!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Be think of You both Mrs.M.
Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Robsia said:


> You and BigMac should exchange notes.
> 
> What do you find most challenging about living with an Aspie?
> 
> I'm quite new to the realisation myself, although I'm 40 and have been like this all my life. Not formally diagnosed yet but at my initial assessment I scored 37 on the AQ test which is pretty damned high - the average 'normal' person gets about 16, so they are putting me in for a formal diagnostic test but there's a waiting list as it's on the NHS. But it's free so I can't really complain/


The fact that she had a affair. But it was OK, because it wasn't _really_ cheating, as she was thoughtful enough to tell me in advance.

She has three degrees, two doctorates and an MA. Which is great. Not so great is that she has problems recognising our street when someone has -for example- painted their gate, as it looks different. She can get very anxious when we go out which worries me as I try to look out for her.

Interestingly she completed a two year professional qualification in under six months. With a 97% pass.

She can go into rages which scare the *&%$ out of me especially when she has PMS/PMT.


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## EI

_*ONE YEAR LATER*_

I don't know if I should even make this post. But, I don't really know what else to do, so here I go. Today is May 24th. One year ago today is the last time I went to the xOM's house. Unbeknownst to me, at the time, 3 days later my best friend's 20 year old step-son would lose his 16 month battle with cancer and later that same day B1 would confront me with the cell phone records. It became D-Day # 2. Our marriage, as we had known it, was dead. And, now, we both knew it. Until then, B1 thought our marriage had been on life support and was in critical condition. I knew it had actually been dead for well over a year, since long before D-Day # 1, some 13 months before..... The "anniversary" of "that" D-Day had come and gone a month before..... as barely a blip on the screen in the miserable state that our life and marriage had slowly disintegrated into over the years. I had been telling him it was over in both subtle and not so subtle ways, but he was so detached that he seemed truly incapable of comprehending the reality that was right in front of us. 

When I quit trying to "fix" our marriage, quit crying, quit begging, quit pleading, quit demanding, quit threatening and actually surrendered I don't know if he felt a great sense of relief, perhaps, believing that I had finally "accepted" our life as it was or if he even really noticed. We never discussed it. Even when I announced that I was going to divorce him..... we never discussed it again. I quit trying to figure out what he was thinking. I once told him that I would have passion in my life with or without him. I found it and I had moved on..... Completely..... I just didn't tell him. He was so detached that it took him finally seeking treatment for depression and low T, (something I had long begged him to do) and following through with it for nearly a year before he began to notice that anything was amiss. These days we are so connected that it is incomprehensible to me that I could "get away" with an A, even if I were so inclined. I'M NOT...... 

To say that I was shocked with his response this time around would be a gross understatement. I barely recognized him. Sometimes, I still have trouble trying to find any signs of the more quiet, introverted, somewhat inhibited man that I dated for 3 years, starting just after my 17th birthday, and had been married to for almost 28 years last year when all of this went down. 

It has been a difficult year. I've made a conscious effort every month not to dwell on certain dates on the calendar because I don't want them to represent a negative cloud hanging over our lives. I want every day on the calendar to belong only to B1, our children and me. I've actually managed fairly well every month. I've read a lot on TAM about the difficulties and challenges surrounding the "anniversary" of D-Days. I thought that I would be ready. B1 has struggled more this month than he has in quite some time. 

I do my very best to be patient, compassionate, attentive, whatever he needs me to be. I do this and more because it's the very least I can do. But, it's hard, at times, very, very hard. Not because I'm intentionally trying to be selfish and don't want to help him, and us, through this, but because I'm human. It's hard because I'm not a piece of machinery that has been programmed and wired for perfect accuracy. I'm a thinking, feeling, human being with all of the emotions, complexities, challenges and limits associated with being human. Some days I'm tired, some days I don't feel well, some days I feel sad and depressed. I feel guilty when that happens because I know that B1 needs me to be "there" for him and I strive to be everything that he needs me to be. More challenging is the odd day when I feel truly happy, hopeful and optimistic.... but, if B1 is having a hard day, well, then I feel guilty for being happy when he is hurting. So, back down to reality I come.

Some days are so hard that I have no choice but to ask him to give me some time to myself..... My big luxury is to take a long, hot soak in the tub. But, I feel guilty about that, too....... I feel guilty because that takes away from time that I should be spending with him. And, I feel guilty for feeling guilty. Because that seems to be self indulgent. But, being human, I am hostage to my emotions. Being cognitive of the consequences of my actions, I try to rise above them.

I don't have any profound wisdom to offer with this post..... I probably never do, right?  I guess I just thought I'd share a glimpse of what our life looks like one year later...... 

We have love, we have hope, we have moments of genuine happiness, we have emotional and physical intimacy that surpasses any intimacy we had previously shared in all of our years together. That's all a vast improvement from what our marriage had been like for the last 10-15 years.

But, still........... if I could turn back time..........


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## soulpotato

I'm hoping some of you can help me with these two stumbling blocks that GF and I have encountered in working towards R. Please give me your opinions.

The first issue is one we've been struggling with even before we separated. For a few years, there was this girl that GF was talking to online/text/phone. She was emotionally attached to her and kind of obsessive about her. The girl would text GF and talk to her in a sexually suggestive fashion on a pretty regular basis, and even sent GF multiple inappropriate pictures (some nude, some with underclothing). The girl also sent her a scarf that we argued over. I wanted GF to get rid of it, but she wouldn't. After many rounds of this, she recently said she would get rid of it only if I bought her a new one because it is "useful". I only got her to stop replying to this girl's (now infrequent) texts a couple of months ago. Whenever I try to discuss this girl with her, she is adamant that it was not an EA because she didn't respond sexually to the girl, and it is nowhere near as bad as what I've done. I think it still counts as an EA. Am I wrong? 

The other problem began more recently, and that is...while we were separated, she signed up on some dating sites and met and went out several times with some of the girls (which, ok....though she still insists that these were not dates). She still keeps in contact with some of them, as well as another girl she met before who definitely had a romantic interest in her (left roses for her at work, kept wanting to hang out, etc). That particular girl recently wanted to spend the night at GF's house because she was having trouble with her OWN GF. Anyway, the trouble is this. I'm asking GF if she plans on keeping these people around because she has been saying she's focusing on me and leaning more towards us getting back together, so I don't know why she'd keep in contact with these people. She thinks it's just me being irrationally jealous and controlling and that other people would be okay with that kind of thing. Thoughts?

I would _really_ appreciate feedback on these issues. (We are going to bring them up at our next therapy session together, but that won't be for a number of weeks due to GF being busy. I told her I was going to ask you guys about this stuff.)

P.S. I do not even know what to do about the ex-boyfriend she wants to keep casual contact with. She carried a torch for this guy for 15+ years, and after reconnecting with him a few years ago, she said she got over her remaining feelings for him, so it's okay to talk to him sometimes. But it still makes me uneasy. Am I really being ridiculous?


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## bfree

BURNT KEP said:


> Any suggestions on how?


Sure, how do you stop a bad habit or start a new good one. Effort and repetition. Stopping something you shouldn't be doing it hard because the neural pathways in your brain literally make it very easy for you to continue to do what you've always done. Why do you think people inherently dislike change? The neural pathways continue to drive you to preform the same actions over and over. This is why it is so hard to quit smoking or stop eating sugar. You brain literally drives you to do it. The only way to stop is through continuous determination. You may fail several times but eventually you will break that bad habit and destroy those neural pathways.

And when you need to start doing something that you aren't used to doing what do you do? You consciously remind yourself to do it. Maybe you leave little notes or clues around so you'll remember. Eventually it becomes second nature to you and you won't have to struggle to remember. Your brain will begin to form a neural pathway for that activity. The longer you continue the new activity the stronger that neural pathway becomes.

Want to know what all that is called? Reprogramming your mind.


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## bfree

EI said:


> _*ONE YEAR LATER*_


I'm going to remove the rest of your post, just because I don't want to trigger you or B1.

Now I understand why you and B1 have been struggling so much lately. Yes, you've been struggling too EI. Think we didn't notice? All I can say is that it is remarkable that you both have come so far in such a short amount of time. You know what is really strange? Your story is not that unusual. I see the same thing play out on a daily basis. Sadly most of these situations end in divorce. But yours didn't. I think that's for a couple of reasons.

One, B1 decided to get help for his Hypoandrogenism. The insidious part of this condition is that it causes men to be so lackluster that they often don't seek treatment simply because they are in a fog. Not only was B1 detached from you and the marriage EI but he was detached from himself. Beowulf has that same condition and said its like walking around feeling like a shell with nothing inside.

Two, you are both such incredibly loving people at heart that you both were able to overcome the resentment and mistrust that had built up on both sides. Your core personalities are so warm that no amount of coldness could stay in you for long. I think that must have been what Morrigan picked up on when she said she had faith in you EI.

This anniversary is not a bad thing at all. It is the one year anniversary of your new marriage. So I will not offer any sympathy. I say congratulations and many more!


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## bfree

soulpotato said:


> I'm hoping some of you can help me with these two stumbling blocks that GF and I have encountered in working towards R. Please give me your opinions.
> 
> The first issue is one we've been struggling with even before we separated. For a few years, there was this girl that GF was talking to online/text/phone. She was emotionally attached to her and kind of obsessive about her. The girl would text GF and talk to her in a sexually suggestive fashion on a pretty regular basis, and even sent GF multiple inappropriate pictures (some nude, some with underclothing). The girl also sent her a scarf that we argued over. I wanted GF to get rid of it, but she wouldn't. After many rounds of this, she recently said she would get rid of it only if I bought her a new one because it is "useful". I only got her to stop replying to this girl's (now infrequent) texts a couple of months ago. Whenever I try to discuss this girl with her, she is adamant that it was not an EA because she didn't respond sexually to the girl, and it is nowhere near as bad as what I've done. I think it still counts as an EA. Am I wrong?
> 
> The other problem began more recently, and that is...while we were separated, she signed up on some dating sites and met and went out several times with some of the girls (which, ok....though she still insists that these were not dates). She still keeps in contact with some of them, as well as another girl she met before who definitely had a romantic interest in her (left roses for her at work, kept wanting to hang out, etc). That particular girl recently wanted to spend the night at GF's house because she was having trouble with her OWN GF. Anyway, the trouble is this. I'm asking GF if she plans on keeping these people around because she has been saying she's focusing on me and leaning more towards us getting back together, so I don't know why she'd keep in contact with these people. She thinks it's just me being irrationally jealous and controlling and that other people would be okay with that kind of thing. Thoughts?
> 
> I would _really_ appreciate feedback on these issues. (We are going to bring them up at our next therapy session together, but that won't be for a number of weeks due to GF being busy. I told her I was going to ask you guys about this stuff.)
> 
> P.S. I do not even know what to do about the ex-boyfriend she wants to keep casual contact with. She carried a torch for this guy for 15+ years, and after reconnecting with him a few years ago, she said she got over her remaining feelings for him, so it's okay to talk to him sometimes. But it still makes me uneasy. Am I really being ridiculous?


Wow, well my first immediate thought is that if you are both committed to trying to work on your relationship with each other all other "friends" should be put on the back burner and maybe an agreed upon temporary NC should be put in place. I wouldn't try to get her to admit to having an EA officially but I would simply term it an inappropriate relationship that impedes the relationship healing. And Ex's are always a bad idea anyway. The problem is that you might not have a solid commitment from GF yet so I might not push the issue too hard. Maybe during the therapy session you can say that you want to give your full concentration and attention to your GF and the relationship but it is difficult when you are uncomfortable with some of the people your GF associates with. Ask if a NC period while working on the relationship would be appropriate and acceptable.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Matt is still struggling terribly. The mind movies are killing him and he feels exactly the same as in November. He just can't go on like this and sees divorce as the only option. I am trying to convince him to hold on, to give us a few days at home to work on re-establishing our equilibrium, but I don't know if he will. I made an appointment withSteve Harley for us Tuesday morning, but I don't know if he will join me or not. He's just so devastated. His body and mind are exhausted and he's looking for any way out of that place.

I keep trying to offer hope, to show support and love, but he doesn't want to hear it. He's gone upstairs to try to sleep. Can any BS talk about how they worked through the overwhelming rage? He wants punishment and justice so badly. How do you start looking at your wayward with fresh eyes and stop the affair from becoming all you see? How can either of us know if divorce really is the only option for him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

He mentioned moving out tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

Mrs M, and Matt, I am so sorry.

There is no magic answer as far as I am aware. He has to decide that the struggle is worth it, or not. 

How I am is I deal with unpleasant things by confronting them. So I live in a constant state of knowing and accepting what could go wrong. Therefore I can reconcile, because my brain knows that another woman could do what Mrs Wazza did. I focus on my judgement that she is a better than average risk.

I think for some people they need to remove the reminders of bad things, and preserve what they might call a positive environment. If he is that sort of person and your presence makes him trigger, maybe he can't deal with it.

I will say this, and I know it is not what you want to hear. But if if he is going to move out, if the decision is made, I would counsel him to do it quickly. Move on, start healing.

Moving out is a big step. Not necessarily the end though.

Matt, I still struggle with Mrs Wazza's infidelity sometimes, and I vividly remember when it was white hot, as your situation is now. Sorry man. I hope you find your peace. Just do the right thing by your kids, and don't hurt Mrs M unnecessarily.

Between this and EI's post, it is a very sad day.


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## daisygirl 41

E1 thank you for posting, as difficult as it must have been for you, I hope writing some of it here has helped you. Your post helped me today. I think my H is experiencing a lot of the feelings you have talked about but is unable to articulate as well as you are. He is feeling distant at the moment and once again I wonder if this really can work. Is love enough? But your post reminds me that it's still early days for all of us and maybe I just read too much into it and am being inpatient, wanting us to heal quicker and questioning why we are not.

Thinking of you both EI and B1
Also Mrs M, please give Matt time and space. The wounds are deep. 
Take care
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Can any BS talk about how they worked through the overwhelming rage? He wants punishment and justice so badly.


That's a tricky one. I feel a lot of anger toward BigMac for what he did. The only thing I can do is try to find ways of expressing that anger neutrally so that he knows how I feel and understands what his actions have done to our M without standing over him yelling at him and telling what a [bleep bleep] he is. That is not a constructive way of handling it and will not help us to rebuild our relationship.

Is it you he wants to punish? Again, that's not constructive. I sometimes feel angry that BigMac got to be a single man basically for a year, dating, screwing, having me on the side, and what are the repercussions? What does he get in return except his wife being willing to take him back, work on the M, improving HERSELF for him. Why does he deserve that? It seems like he is being rewarded for his behaviour which is wrong. He gets to f*ck about for a year and gets...what? Only positives back. Where is the justice in that? I'm still working on that one myself. It's very unfair. 

But again, it's not constructive. It is destructive behaviour and is not conducive to R.



> How do you start looking at your wayward with fresh eyes and stop the affair from becoming all you see?


For me, it's because I know I still love him. I hate what he has done, but I still love him. Right now, when I look at him and see a loving, remorseful, apologetic husband, devastated at what his actions have done to our M, one who truly wants to work at R with his whole heart, one who loves me and TELLS me that he loves me, that helps me to look past what he did and look to our future.

During the false R when he was getting defensive, and did not want to do what I needed him to do, then I didn't see a future for us. I didn't feel he wanted the R, or at least not enough to do what I needed him to do.



> How can either of us know if divorce really is the only option for him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If BigMac was doing everything I needed him to do, being the person I wanted him to be, being remorseful, practically prostrating himself at my feet, and I STILL didn't want to work on the M then, for me, that would be a clear sign that D was the only option. There would be nothing worth staying for.

I can't speak for Matt, only myself.

My only advice to you would be to make sure you are doing EVERYTHING you can and accept that, at the end of the day, it still might not be enough. If he wants to walk away, ultimately you may have to let him.


----------



## SomedayDig

Matt...buy the book in my signature. Ask others who may have read it. I promise it will help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Wow, well my first immediate thought is that if you are both committed to trying to work on your relationship with each other all other "friends" should be put on the back burner and maybe an agreed upon temporary NC should be put in place. I wouldn't try to get her to admit to having an EA officially but I would simply term it an inappropriate relationship that impedes the relationship healing. And Ex's are always a bad idea anyway. The problem is that you might not have a solid commitment from GF yet so I might not push the issue too hard. Maybe during the therapy session you can say that you want to give your full concentration and attention to your GF and the relationship but it is difficult when you are uncomfortable with some of the people your GF associates with. Ask if a NC period while working on the relationship would be appropriate and acceptable.


I am fully committed, and don't have anyone else around. The temporary NC thing probably won't fly with her, although it is a good idea. It's too close to cutting them off completely, and she doesn't like ignoring people. Plus, she thinks I'm being controlling, so she's especially resistant on issues concerning these people. We fought quite a lot back when she wouldn't stop talking to the vengeful/toxic AP who wanted nothing more than to drive an even bigger wedge between me and GF.

It has been a somewhat rocky journey towards R so far. Thank you for your feedback. Hopefully others will chime in, too.


----------



## Wazza

Matt is this the anniversary of when the PA started?

Be wary making permanent decisions in case you are triggering over something like that.


----------



## jh52

SomedayDig said:


> Matt...buy the book in my signature. Ask others who may have read it. I promise it will help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Matt:

Here is Digs signature and book he suggested by Kevin Jackson:

Signature 
I'm Dig & my wife is Regret214.

"Don't be a f'ng statistic. Do something no one expects." - Dig

Survive Her Affair Kevin Jackson


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



jh52 said:


> Matt:
> 
> Here is Digs signature and book he suggested by Kevin Jackson:
> 
> Signature
> I'm Dig & my wife is Regret214.
> 
> "Don't be a f'ng statistic. Do something no one expects." - Dig
> 
> Survive Her Affair Kevin Jackson


Great book! Matt, don't make any decisions while in a highly emotional state. You've just been gone a week and you were triggering a lot. Now is not the time. Let things settle down and then judge where you want to be. You owe that to yourself and your children.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> I am fully committed, and don't have anyone else around. The temporary NC thing probably won't fly with her, although it is a good idea. It's too close to cutting them off completely, and she doesn't like ignoring people. Plus, she thinks I'm being controlling, so she's especially resistant on issues concerning these people. We fought quite a lot back when she wouldn't stop talking to the vengeful/toxic AP who wanted nothing more than to drive an even bigger wedge between me and GF.
> 
> It has been a somewhat rocky journey towards R so far. Thank you for your feedback. Hopefully others will chime in, too.


Like I said it's a tough one.


----------



## bfree

And Matt I can tell you first hand that removing your wife is not going to solve your anger issues. You have to work through them whether she's there or not. There is never going to be satisfactory revenge for you. You can never get even. It's not how it works. I also urge you to stay looking inward. See how you might work to make yourself better and stronger. It's something we all can and should do. Plus it might take your mind off some of your troubles.


----------



## tears

Mrs_Matt

Please read these two books.

How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful: Amazon.co.uk: Linda J. MacDonald M.S.: Books

and

When Good People Have Affairs: Amazon.co.uk: Mira Kirshenbaum: Books


----------



## Doc Who

Mrs M.

Speaking as one who knows about rage, I offer this. There are no magic cures. And nothing you can do to abate the rage. There are things you can do to not incite greater rage, but you cannot heal him. That has to come from within.

Here are my observations regarding where Matt may be. Please note I could be totally wrong, so filter what seems to apply.

First, he was totally rejected by you. Old news and yes, you have been very remorseful and dedicated to the marriage since the third or fourth Dday. But his rejection was nearly indescribable. He was replaced by, and this is harsh but reflective of his thoughts, a complete loser of a 21 year old. His cuckolding was widely known among your circle and highly encouraged by the “theater group.” And on top of this, when you were confronted with your infidelity, you consistently lied about it. Not only that, you escalated it knowing the destruction it would cause.

When someone is rejected so completely by one that is deeply loved, it is hard to see anything good. The brain’s biochemical response to rejection varies, but generally speaking, it clouds judgment and incites deep resentment and rage that often manifests itself in seeking “justice.”

Right now, he is fighting the vast desire to “get even with you” with the intellectual knowledge that he can never hurt you as much as you hurt him. That probably has him in an even darker place.

Plus, you are still not safe to him. And he may be coming to grips that you may never be. You love Matt and want to be with him. But you love the theater and it is a part of you. The kids you work with love the drama, the thrills, and often have a complete lack of emotional intelligence necessary to make successful long term relationships that are as meaningful as husband and wife. So here is what Matt may see – for the rest of your marriage, you will be surrounded by boys/men who will always want in your pants and will know exactly what strings to pull to make you think it is just a friendship or a bonding of theater people. And as you age and your looks degrade, who knows how much you will yearn for the acceptance, the affirmation, the ego-stroking of those young men engaged in the field you love so dearly?

You will never give up the theater and be happy.

You will always be a target for adultery by exciting, dramatic young men.

No matter how firm you think your boundaries are now, what happens as you are undergoing post-partum depression after the birth of your next child? Or Matt becomes more stressed? Or CJ reaches out in a year or so looking for closure? Or another good looking boy offers friendship? You probably think you will never cheat again. You are probably certain. But Matt knows that even when confronted with the pain and destruction of your actions, you can escalate the betrayal. His reality is not yours.

Add up the rejection, the need to get even but never being able to, and the lack of safety in a marriage that is tenuous and it equals a relationship where he has little control or safety. Hence – the rage.

So what can you do? You have done a lot. But it doesn’t change the things I have listed (and maybe even more.) He knows you love him and believes that in this moment you are totally committed to the marriage, but he also knows this is likely fleeting. He feels like ****, like a replaceable joke of a man who may never feel whole again.

He has to detach from the hopelessness. He has to find a place in his mind where he can lose you, where you can go off on your merry way with CJ v2.0 and he knows in his heart that he will be fine. No, better than fine. He has to know that he has value to the world. He has to find whatever path will make him feel better, stronger, more at ease with himself so that if he has to face this pain again, it will hurt, but it will be okay. Right now, he is not strong enough to endure that pain. He feels incomplete. So when the constant reminders of the past betrayal occur, he feels helpless, hopeless, beaten.

He needs to recognize that the pain is caused by something and that something can be addressed if you are both willing. AND he needs to see a path forward in the marriage that would not include complete an utter destruction of his psyche should you revert to your old ways. He needs a narrative in his heart that will allow him to move forward. Maybe that will arise via detachment from the marriage. Maybe it will come from temporary detachment from you. But more than likely, he will find it working with you as you seem very willing to do whatever you can. 

Strength and blessings to you and Matt in this incredibly painful journey.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

tears said:


> Mrs_Matt
> 
> Please read these two books.
> 
> How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful: Amazon.co.uk: Linda J. MacDonald M.S.: Books
> 
> and
> 
> When Good People Have Affairs: Amazon.co.uk: Mira Kirshenbaum: Books


I've read the first one. I'll look into the second. Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thank you all for your thoughts so far. I sat up last night and read Ortman's PISD book, and ordered Surviving Her Affair for Matt this morning. I know he will need to find a way through this together or separate. I hope more than anything it can be together, but I have to leave it in his court.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

tears said:


> Mrs_Matt
> 
> Please read these two books.
> 
> How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful: Amazon.co.uk: Linda J. MacDonald M.S.: Books
> 
> and
> 
> When Good People Have Affairs: Amazon.co.uk: Mira Kirshenbaum: Books



Thank you for that recommendation, Tears, I'm sure there are many of us who would benefit from reading these books. 

Please feel free to stick around the "R" thread and share your experience and your wisdom with us. You don't have to be in "R" to post on this thread. You are an excellent example of ongoing remorse and contrition, even in the face of circumstances not working out as you hoped.


----------



## tears

EI said:


> Thank you for that recommendation, Tears, I'm sure there are many of us who would benefit from reading these books.
> 
> Please feel free to stick around the "R" thread and share your experience and your wisdom with us. You don't have to be in "R" to post on this thread. You are an excellent example of ongoing remorse and contrition, even in the face of circumstances not working out as you hoped.


Thank you.


----------



## jh52

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thank you all for your thoughts so far. I sat up last night and read Ortman's PISD book, and ordered Surviving Her Affair for Matt this morning. I know he will need to find a way through this together or separate. I hope more than anything it can be together, but I have to leave it in his court.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs M -- I am glad you posted this. 

IMO -- this is also a big step for part of your healing as well as Matt's in that you recognize that this is Matt's choice and he may decide to divorce instead of reconcile. I know this probably hurts to read this -- but this is a fact.

You will always be part of each other's life since you have one child and one on the way -- the question is will it be together.

Whatever Matt decides -- it's going to be tough -- because divorce is not going to solve anything -- it will only create new problems and issues that you will both have to face.

Maybe the date of the anniversary being so close, the letter you got from J, being separated this past week -- all were triggers that have pushed Matt where he is today. 

Only Matt knows -- but maybe in a strange way he doesn't know why last week he was defending you on TAM and today he is talking about moving out. Maybe it's the same when a WW starts a PA -- and the BS asks why ? There is no answer to "why" you started your affair -- and there is no answer to "why" Matt is where his mind is today. 

The only answer I got it because everything isn't black and white. There are a lot of grey areas in life -- and every choice we make in life has consequences. At the time of our choices -- our minds are where they are. Nothing can and no one will be able to change that choice. Just like nothing will be able to change the consequences of our choices -- we just have to get back up, brush ourselves off, learn from whatever choice, and make ourselves better.

Life is too short -- think of the people in Moore, Oklahoma who lost everything. When then went to work/school that day -- no one could have imagined this day was going to change their life for ever. 

Just like Matt couldn't imagine the choices you made to have started and continued an affair -- once he found out, his life as he knew it that day changed forever.

Wishing you both the best on this Memorial Day weekend --


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

One last hypothetical question for now. It's often said that there are people who just "can't" get through infidelity. What do you think are some differences for people who can or can't? Do you think the people who can't ultimately heal as effectively? I can see someone who can get through it choosing to D, and recovering on their own, but to say you can't get through it is harder for me to comprehend, separate or together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

jh52 said:


> Whatever Matt decides -- it's going to be tough -- because divorce is not going to solve anything -- it will only create new problems and issues that you will both have to face.


I think that's the hardest thing for me to come to terms with right now. I agree with you completely, I don't think divorce will solve anything for he or I. At this point, our own relationship aside, it will simply rob us both of a full relationship with our children, especially the new baby who will never bond with Matt to the level that our son has if we separate.

But I know from talking a little this afternoon and looking at some of the adult models from his life, that he thinks divorce will offer a balm to his pain and anger fairly quickly, as opposed to facing me each day. His parents and grandparents are both divorced and none of them has pursued any other significant adult relationship at this point. His dad had 1 LTR after the marriage, but it ended when he refused to marry her. I think Matt is picturing a future alone, so arguments that anyone could do this to him, and I am worth the risk because of what I have learned are not applicable in his mind.

Logically, I cannot offer a counter argument to that perspective. Except that, during our marriage, he has felt lonely. It seems the only way to improve that is to stay and work together to rebuild our bond and lives. How could he not be lonely if we divorced as well? I just don't know. I'm thinking my way in circles, and just trying to look at every viewpoint as much as possible.


----------



## CEL

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thank you all for your thoughts so far. I sat up last night and read Ortman's PISD book, and ordered Surviving Her Affair for Matt this morning. I know he will need to find a way through this together or separate. I hope more than anything it can be together, but I have to leave it in his court.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I sent a PM to your husband I don't know if any of my ramblings will help but I wanted to try. I think we all know you are hurting right now and you must be going through hell complete with self loathing, panic attacks and depression. I wanted to say that these things are not like marathon easily calculated by the distance you have traveled. It seems to me these things are more like hiking a mountain sometimes you are high and sometimes you are in the valley the important thing is that you are moving not where you are right now.

I did want to talk to you about what you can do. I think you are doing just about everything that you can but I wanted to say something. Whenever I read about the threads with WS something always peeks out at me I don't know if it is applicable or not but I thought I would share. You should be there in every way for your husband but when he wants space you should focus on YOUR healing. A saying I have always liked is "Only those you trust can betray you, the greater the trust the greater the betrayal.". You did betray your husband but you also betrayed yourself that core sense of yourself was shattered, for who does not trust themselves more than any one else? I know you are spending all your time trying to help him and you should but you should also give some thought to yourself, you betrayed who you were and you need to heal as well for both of your sakes.

Best wishes for both of you


----------



## CEL

Mrs_Mathias said:


> One last hypothetical question for now. It's often said that there are people who just "can't" get through infidelity. What do you think are some differences for people who can or can't? Do you think the people who can't ultimately heal as effectively? I can see someone who can get through it choosing to D, and recovering on their own, but to say you can't get through it is harder for me to comprehend, separate or together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Before I read your and EI story I would of said I was one of those, that could never get over it. Your stories made me reflect on why that was when I could forgive other people who did far worse than that to me. I think that many people think marriage is forever that as they were growing up there would be one person who would never betray them and always be with them. I think people who hold onto this thought are the ones that can't get past the betrayal and never will they have such a high standard for themselves and their wife/husband that they just cannot get past the fact that people sometimes fail and unfortunately some people fail at the worst damn time and cause massive damage to themselves and those they love. Those that get past is have a different perspective they have seen that people fail but they also believe people can change, they can make amends, they can come back stronger. To me this is a more mature idea of marriage one that allows the human condition of failure. I am not disparaging anyone who gets a D especially if they do not have a remorseful spouse I am just saying as a person who would of left not to long ago that is how I see it.

Do I think they heal the same way? No they heal in a different ways, there expectations where not met they expected faithfulness and got the opposite I think they eventually write the person off as a bad person, dehumanize them in their mind to make it easier to move on until time dulls the pain which I am guessing happens at about the time that they stop loving the WS. They then go on to other relationships with the idea that they just meet a defective person an anomaly in the human race. Many people who move on to other relationships find that the next one also has an anomaly in it I don't know one of the reasons I am so happy to be here is that I had no idea I had that thought process and I do not want to be like that "for me".

Neither way is right or wrong in my opinion. I think those who R are understanding and more willing to admit that people often do not meet our expectations and try to learn from the process. Those that D are less understanding "not a bad thing you do have to stand for something" and are more definite in what they want, they don't care what you think they want what they want and are willing to suffer to get it.


----------



## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think that's the hardest thing for me to come to terms with right now. I agree with you completely, I don't think divorce will solve anything for he or I. At this point, our own relationship aside, it will simply rob us both of a full relationship with our children, especially the new baby who will never bond with Matt to the level that our son has if we separate.
> 
> But I know from talking a little this afternoon and looking at some of the adult models from his life, that he thinks divorce will offer a balm to his pain and anger fairly quickly, as opposed to facing me each day. His parents and grandparents are both divorced and none of them has pursued any other significant adult relationship at this point. His dad had 1 LTR after the marriage, but it ended when he refused to marry her. I think Matt is picturing a future alone, so arguments that anyone could do this to him, and I am worth the risk because of what I have learned are not applicable in his mind.
> 
> Logically, I cannot offer a counter argument to that perspective. Except that, during our marriage, he has felt lonely. It seems the only way to improve that is to stay and work together to rebuild our bond and lives. How could he not be lonely if we divorced as well? I just don't know. I'm thinking my way in circles, and just trying to look at every viewpoint as much as possible.


23 years out from the affair and things are overall good, but there are still days I retreat into my shell because of what she did.

In staying for the kids, I rebuilt, but if I hadn't had that reason to stay.....well I can see the logic of Matt's position as you describe it.

Totally theoretical here, but if you remove love and sex from the relationship, perhaps the things that made you friends can still survive. If you divorce you will need to relate as co parents. Perhaps a friendship can be reestablished.


----------



## warlock07

> I agree with you completely, I don't think divorce will solve anything for he or I.


I'm sure it will solve a lot of pain for Matt. It is insulting to imply that divorce is one way running away from the problems. How convenient ?



> At this point, our own relationship aside, it will simply rob us both of a full relationship with our children, especially the new baby who will never bond with Matt to the level that our son has if we separate.


Guilt




> It seems the only way to improve that is to stay and work together to rebuild our bond and lives. How could he not be lonely if we divorced as well?



Do people not realize when they are being manipulative ? I know this is a pro R thread meant to support WS, but had to call this out..


----------



## mintypeas

cantsitstill- thankou for your lovely message it means alot. we are only 6 weeks in to this and its hard but at no point has he blamed me but through talking and reading this thread we have seen that we were not working together in the marriage and not having anytime to enjoy each other. i have tol;d him to contact another ws to see if they would be happy to talk to him about what he is feeling about it all. today i showed him the phone records and he could not believe what he saw that he had been texting her so much and even was texting me and her at the same time the look of shock and realization was so evident. xx

i want to sa to everyone that is struggling at the moment that you are in my thoughts and prayers everyday. xxx


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



warlock07 said:


> I'm sure it will solve a lot of pain for Matt. It is insulting to imply that divorce is one way running away from the problems. How convenient ?
> 
> *Are you do sure it will solve Matt's pain? It certainly didn't solve any of my pain and there were no children involved. Sometimes divorcing is running away from the problems, especially when the WS is remorseful. Sometimes divorce results because the BS can't overcome the betrayal. How do you know which is which? *
> Guilt
> 
> 
> *Of course there is guilt. I would be shocked if there weren't.*
> 
> 
> Do people not realize when they are being manipulative ? I know this is a pro R thread meant to support WS, but had to call this out
> 
> *Do you really see manipulation here? I honestly don't.*
> 
> .


I know its not my thread but I always value your opinions Warlock.


----------



## CantSitStill

My heart goes out to so many of you, this weekend it seems many of you are hurting. I'm sorry. Time helps, the clouds will pass and the sun will shine again, just hang on tight. I know this pain and I know I will feel it again. That feeling that we tried our best but that it's too much for him. I held on and he bareley hung on but we have made it through a lot of these storms. I really believe in the power of prayer. Please get up, dust yourselves off and keep fighting for your marriage. Get another book, talk even if it's uncomfortable. You will make it through today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Doc Who said:


> Mrs M.
> 
> Speaking as one who knows about rage, I offer this. There are no magic cures. And nothing you can do to abate the rage. There are things you can do to not incite greater rage, but you cannot heal him. That has to come from within.
> 
> Here are my observations regarding where Matt may be. Please note I could be totally wrong, so filter what seems to apply.
> 
> First, he was totally rejected by you. Old news and yes, you have been very remorseful and dedicated to the marriage since the third or fourth Dday. But his rejection was nearly indescribable. He was replaced by, and this is harsh but reflective of his thoughts, a complete loser of a 21 year old. His cuckolding was widely known among your circle and highly encouraged by the “theater group.” And on top of this, when you were confronted with your infidelity, you consistently lied about it. Not only that, you escalated it knowing the destruction it would cause.
> 
> When someone is rejected so completely by one that is deeply loved, it is hard to see anything good. The brain’s biochemical response to rejection varies, but generally speaking, it clouds judgment and incites deep resentment and rage that often manifests itself in seeking “justice.”
> 
> Right now, he is fighting the vast desire to “get even with you” with the intellectual knowledge that he can never hurt you as much as you hurt him. That probably has him in an even darker place.
> 
> Plus, you are still not safe to him. And he may be coming to grips that you may never be. You love Matt and want to be with him. But you love the theater and it is a part of you. The kids you work with love the drama, the thrills, and often have a complete lack of emotional intelligence necessary to make successful long term relationships that are as meaningful as husband and wife. So here is what Matt may see – for the rest of your marriage, you will be surrounded by boys/men who will always want in your pants and will know exactly what strings to pull to make you think it is just a friendship or a bonding of theater people. And as you age and your looks degrade, who knows how much you will yearn for the acceptance, the affirmation, the ego-stroking of those young men engaged in the field you love so dearly?
> 
> You will never give up the theater and be happy.
> 
> You will always be a target for adultery by exciting, dramatic young men.
> 
> No matter how firm you think your boundaries are now, what happens as you are undergoing post-partum depression after the birth of your next child? Or Matt becomes more stressed? Or CJ reaches out in a year or so looking for closure? Or another good looking boy offers friendship? You probably think you will never cheat again. You are probably certain. But Matt knows that even when confronted with the pain and destruction of your actions, you can escalate the betrayal. His reality is not yours.
> 
> Add up the rejection, the need to get even but never being able to, and the lack of safety in a marriage that is tenuous and it equals a relationship where he has little control or safety. Hence – the rage.
> 
> So what can you do? You have done a lot. But it doesn’t change the things I have listed (and maybe even more.) He knows you love him and believes that in this moment you are totally committed to the marriage, but he also knows this is likely fleeting. He feels like ****, like a replaceable joke of a man who may never feel whole again.
> 
> He has to detach from the hopelessness. He has to find a place in his mind where he can lose you, where you can go off on your merry way with CJ v2.0 and he knows in his heart that he will be fine. No, better than fine. He has to know that he has value to the world. He has to find whatever path will make him feel better, stronger, more at ease with himself so that if he has to face this pain again, it will hurt, but it will be okay. Right now, he is not strong enough to endure that pain. He feels incomplete. So when the constant reminders of the past betrayal occur, he feels helpless, hopeless, beaten.
> 
> He needs to recognize that the pain is caused by something and that something can be addressed if you are both willing. AND he needs to see a path forward in the marriage that would not include complete an utter destruction of his psyche should you revert to your old ways. He needs a narrative in his heart that will allow him to move forward. Maybe that will arise via detachment from the marriage. Maybe it will come from temporary detachment from you. But more than likely, he will find it working with you as you seem very willing to do whatever you can.
> 
> Strength and blessings to you and Matt in this incredibly painful journey.


If I'm not mistaken I believe they are moving to a completely new area. That should help a lot I would think.

But I do have to agree with you about the theater. Mrs M knows that her theater participation has been a sticking point for me all along. Not only do I see it as a potential trigger for Matt going forward but I also don't think its a good environment for Mrs M if they stay together. I've made that point before but ultimately its up to them I guess.

In any case you are absolutely correct that the best thing Matt can do is to be so self assured that he knows he'll be fine regardless of what happens in the future. As much as I love my wife I know that if we ever split up, although I would be upset and mourn the loss of our relationship, ultimately I'd be fine and would not only survive but thrive. And she knows it too. I feel that is one reason our marriage is so strong. Because we are both strong individuals so our partnership is made even stronger because of it. I don't HAVE to stay with Mrs bfree. I CHOOSE to stay with Mrs bfree.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> I know its not my thread but I always value your opinions Warlock.


_Well whose thread is it?  It belongs to everyone...... For Heaven's sake, B1 only speaks 1 word for every 100 of mine, and I can't keep up with this on my own....... Take some ownership people........ _


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> _Well whose thread is it?  It belongs to everyone...... For Heaven's sake, B1 only speaks 1 word for every 100 of mine, and I can't keep up with this on my own....... Take some ownership people........ _


Do I have to take it over again?
I don't want to but I will...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

This thread is like a buglite for WS and BS's.
Big difference is it does'nt kill us,voltage is too low.
It shocks us a little but that's good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Do I have to take it over again?
> I don't want to but I will...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do it, Calvin!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Do it, Calvin!


Nooo...you scare me.
You both are doing fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

jh52 said:


> You must be a mind reader in knowing that getting divorce will take away Matt's pain. Even if you were Matt's best friend and knew him in real life -- there is no way anyone -- including Matt knows this.
> 
> Guilt -- really --- a baby still not born into this world may never live with her/his father -- and you think Mrs M is using guilt. Once again I disagree. Matt is the father --- how about the innocent baby being borned into this situation. You never once in your post address the baby or for that matter the child they already have.
> 
> That is the trouble with our world in regards to marriage these days -- it's like the vows people have said "or until things get tough."
> 
> Life is tough -- whether there is infidelity or not. I hope that Mrs M and Matt can work it out -- but if not, then so be it.
> 
> Just wanted to call this out.


I get what Warlock is saying,I don't fault him.
I get what jh is saying more though,if you don't try no one knows how it will be.
God this is hard,I believe its up to Matt but I also know that he might regret not giving a true R a shot with Mrs.M.
Mrs.M needs to be saved,as does Matt.
Its very possible that they can save eachother,it does happen.
I didn't used to think this way but the more I see,the more I learn.
I lean on CSS and she on me.
We both hold ourselves up,pick eachother up when we fall and keep moving.
I feel for Matt,he should not have to go through this but I believe Mrs.M can help him get his peace of mind back.
CSS is with me and she has been kind of like a nurse for me.
The irony does not escape me,its strange but it is what it is.
Its the way I want it,I don't want to go through this alone or with someone different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Howdy, folks, Rookie here. I thought that I would stick my nose back in for a second and find out what is happening. A quick update. We are doing very well, but are still having a few difficulties with her self-esteem, and some jealousy about me and the women I dated/slept with while we were separated but still married (after I threw her out) and what she sees as how quickly I got over her and moved on to somebody else. But it is still improving everyday and we are in no danger of splitting up. Just another hump to get over.
MM, I think that at this stage, you must realistically consider a trial separation. Right now , you are the biggest trigger Matt faces, and he seems to be one of those people who needs some alone time to decompress. The"mind movies" and his continued miss-trust of you and your motives are undoing every thing you say, and making it impossible for him to heal. Leaving him alone to see if he can find a better life without you, is the price you pay for cheating. If he decides that he doesn't like the single world, that alone will give him the biggest impetus to give your marriage another try. What you can do, is do like Sweetie and work on yourself to the point that you become somebody that he will be willing to take a chance on.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> And Matt I can tell you first hand that removing your wife is not going to solve your anger issues. You have to work through them whether she's there or not. There is never going to be satisfactory revenge for you. You can never get even. It's not how it works. I also urge you to stay looking inward. See how you might work to make yourself better and stronger. It's something we all can and should do. Plus it might take your mind off some of your troubles.


Sorry, bfree, but I disagree with this. Matt, is being forced by seeing MM each day, to re-live the affairs and re-imagine the Mind movies. How can you put out the fire if the fuel is ever-present?


----------



## Rookie4

I know that TAM is a pro-reconciliation site, but reconciliation can also include separation and even divorce. MM and Matt's marriage is NOT as important as their emotional well-being and personal improvement.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, bfree, but I disagree with this. Matt, is being forced by seeing MM each day, to re-live the affairs and re-imagine the Mind movies. How can you put out the fire if the fuel is ever-present?


So you don't find it interesting that all of this comes on the heels of a week when they were separated? If separation were the key why then did he trigger unmercifully when they weren't together and just before he left when they were together he declared that they were doing so much better that he officially announced that he was reconciling. I know separation worked in your case, and it may indeed work in many cases, but in their case the separation was the impetus for the mind movies, not the cure for them.


----------



## mintypeas

hello to everyone. just need to get something out and was wondering if anyone had gone through the same thing. i am beating myself up today as i knew there was something going on but i did nothing the first real evidence i had was i saw a text from ow to wh and he said it was from his sister and i did nothing. i said many times that he could stop my suspisions by giving me his phone but he never did why did i not demand the phone from him? and then when the phone records came through for the new phone and i confronted him why did i take his lie when i knew there was something wrong? if i had confronted in december when i found the text then it would of stopped instead of carrying on til april this year. why did i let this carry on when i could of stopped it very easily? why did i turn a blind eye to my husbands ea? xxxx sorry for rambling but need to get this stuff out of my head x


----------



## margrace

EI said:


> _*ONE YEAR LATER*_
> 
> ...It has been a difficult year. I've made a conscious effort every month not to dwell on certain dates on the calendar because I don't want them to represent a negative cloud hanging over our lives. I want every day on the calendar to belong only to B1, our children and me. I've actually managed fairly well every month. I've read a lot on TAM about the difficulties and challenges surrounding the "anniversary" of D-Days. I thought that I would be ready. B1 has struggled more this month than he has in quite some time.
> 
> I do my very best to be patient, compassionate, attentive, whatever he needs me to be. I do this and more because it's the very least I can do. But, it's hard, at times, very, very hard. ...Some days I'm tired, some days I don't feel well, some days I feel sad and depressed. I feel guilty when that happens because I know that B1 needs me to be "there" for him and I strive to be everything that he needs me to be. ...Some days are so hard that I have no choice but to ask him to give me some time to myself..... My big luxury is to take a long, hot soak in the tub. But, I feel guilty about that, too....... I feel guilty because that takes away from time that I should be spending with him. And, I feel guilty for feeling guilty. Because that seems to be self indulgent. But, being human, I am hostage to my emotions. Being cognitive of the consequences of my actions, I try to rise above them.
> 
> I don't have any profound wisdom to offer with this post..... I probably never do, right?  I guess I just thought I'd share a glimpse of what our life looks like one year later......
> 
> But, still........... if I could turn back time..........


i definitely don't have any profound wisdom to offer but i am with you and B1 in spirit, EI.

i'm a little behind on the thread and i'm always hesitant to respond to a post after some time has passed -- you and B1 might be in a completely different place this morning! if so, i hope this doesn't take you backward in some way.

you and B1 have offered SO MUCH to to many people during one of the hardest years of your life. i was lurking here for months without posting much at all before i found your thread. i could have taken the brave, scary plunge that you and B1 took and really opened up on my own -- but i didn't. _you_ did that work for me, _you_ created a unique space with your openness and vulnerability.

B1, your recent post about acceptance was profound for me. i get into a trap of feeling that if only i can figure out the puzzle, if only i can solve it and understand it (or something), then i can let out a sigh of relief and file the whole thing away. that is an illusion... as you explained so well. thank you.

EI, B1 knows and we know the depth and sincerity of your remorse. 

gosh, probably most of us here wish we could turn back time. we all wish we could go back and foresee some things and undo some things and _do_ some other things. one of the things that our MC has helped us with is understanding that, if we _could_ have, we _would_ have. nobody (or at least, not most of us) wants to hurt other people or themselves. we only had the tools that we had, and the insights that we had (along with the fears and the blind spots that we had). 

so can i say these words to your _bones_? you are no longer defined by the worst mistake that you ever made (and i hope not to be defined by mine either). you reached down deep and you rescued your humanity and lifted it up with your honesty and accountability. and it's a thing of dignity and beauty now and it must be respected and cared for. so if you are tired sometimes, if there are days that you need to lay the burden down -- then lay it on down, girl! because we all know that when you get out of the bubble bath, you will shoulder it again with all the love and tenacity that you have shown B1 this year.

even now, you are helping me, because you remind me of how difficult all of this is not just for me, but also for my fWH. he knows how important the people on this thread are to me, and i was telling him about writing this post. i asked him, when you get tired, what comforts you? he said, you're still here


----------



## bfree

mintypeas said:


> hello to everyone. just need to get something out and was wondering if anyone had gone through the same thing. i am beating myself up today as i knew there was something going on but i did nothing the first real evidence i had was i saw a text from ow to wh and he said it was from his sister and i did nothing. i said many times that he could stop my suspisions by giving me his phone but he never did why did i not demand the phone from him? and then when the phone records came through for the new phone and i confronted him why did i take his lie when i knew there was something wrong? if i had confronted in december when i found the text then it would of stopped instead of carrying on til april this year. why did i let this carry on when i could of stopped it very easily? why did i turn a blind eye to my husbands ea? xxxx sorry for rambling but need to get this stuff out of my head x


The one that is cheating is not the only one in a fog MP. We BS's don't want to see it either. As much as WS try to reassure themselves and rationalize what they are doing so do BS rationalize not seeing or doing anything about it. I think its because instinctively we know what is going on and we know how much pain we are about to receive so we put it off for as long as possible. All this is happening subconsciously of course so when we consciously discover the affair we are still shocked and hurt. Human beings are an interesting creature. Sometimes hope carries us through times when we really should have given up long ago and sometimes we can delude ourselves when all the evidence is there for us to see. But it also makes us who we are and why we can accomplish so much in the face of so much adversity. Its a double edged sword for sure.


----------



## Robsia

mintypeas said:


> hello to everyone. just need to get something out and was wondering if anyone had gone through the same thing. i am beating myself up today as i knew there was something going on but i did nothing the first real evidence i had was i saw a text from ow to wh and he said it was from his sister and i did nothing. i said many times that he could stop my suspisions by giving me his phone but he never did why did i not demand the phone from him? and then when the phone records came through for the new phone and i confronted him why did i take his lie when i knew there was something wrong? if i had confronted in december when i found the text then it would of stopped instead of carrying on til april this year. why did i let this carry on when i could of stopped it very easily? why did i turn a blind eye to my husbands ea? xxxx sorry for rambling but need to get this stuff out of my head x


Because you were scared to find out if you were right.

I found out about my WH's first PA in March. He swore to me there were no others, although he admitted he had gone on dates with other women right up until I found out.

I didn't believe him. But I didn't demand to see his phone, I didn't demand to go through his emails as I was too scared to find out if my suspicions were correct.

As it turned out, they were, but it wasn't until I was faced with too much evidence to ignore it any longer that I finally snapped and demanded the truth. There had been another PA, hot on the heels of the first one after she dumped him.

THEN I went through his phone and his iPad and his emails and found a few other little nuggets he hadn't told me either, like he had been on half a dozen dating sites, not just the one he had told me, and that he was still in contact with an OW he had met although she confirmed that they had only been on a couple of dates a wile ago and that nothing had happened. He says he was keeping her on side as a potential business contact as he is in IT and she runs a training company.

But he admits it was inappropriate, especially as she clearly had feelings for him.

This was all last weekend.

It is fear. Fear of finding out that it is worse than you suspected and you having to deal with it. You want to believe them so much, even though your gut is screaming at you.

You'd rather stick your head in the sand and repeat, "He is telling me the truth. He wouldn't lie to me. He wouldn't do that."

But they would.

And they do.


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## margrace

bfree said:


> The one that is cheating is not the only one in a fog MP. We BS's don't want to see it either. As much as WS try to reassure themselves and rationalize what they are doing so do BS rationalize not seeing or doing anything about it. I think its because instinctively we know what is going on and we know how much pain we are about to receive so we put it off for as long as possible. All this is happening subconsciously of course so when we consciously discover the affair we are still shocked and hurt. Human beings are an interesting creature. Sometimes hope carries us through times when we really should have given up long ago and sometimes we can delude ourselves when all the evidence is there for us to see. But it also makes us who we are and why we can accomplish so much in the face of so much adversity. Its a double edged sword for sure.


hi, mintypeas.... :iagree:


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## mintypeas

thankyou all so much and i can see it was from fear of knowing what really was going on. i went with my gut instinct when it was staring in the face but it 2 weeks to get rid of the gut instinct and i dont have that at all now as we dont stop talking and i have had the questions answered. but i still have issues about the ow and why didnt stop this when i had my first suspisions. i have accepted certain things but other things are harder. sorry im probably not making much sense xxxx


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## warlock07

bfree said:


> So you don't find it interesting that all of this comes on the heels of a week when they were separated? If separation were the key why then did he trigger unmercifully when they weren't together and just before he left when they were together he declared that they were doing so much better that he officially announced that he was reconciling. I know separation worked in your case, and it may indeed work in many cases, but in their case the separation was the impetus for the mind movies, not the cure for them.


bfree, it could also be a case of boiling frog. Only once he was separated from the house and her, could he really contrast and separate between normal and "his actual normal". He was having a regular day like he used to when a message from MrsM brings him back to the current reality of pain, doubt and suffering(Maybe the pain dullens and goes away slowly but it takes time). R or D, when Matt asks her space, I think she should give him that irrespective of how noble her intentions are.


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## calvin

warlock07 said:


> bfree, it could also be a case of boiling frog. Only once he was separated from the house and her, could he really contrast and separate between normal and "his actual normal". He was having a regular day like he used to when a message from MrsM brings him back to the current reality of pain, doubt and suffering(Maybe the pain dullens and goes away slowly but it takes time). R or D, when Matt asks her space, I think she should give him that irrespective of how noble her intentions are.


I get what you're saying Warlock,I wanted space and CSS gave it but then I started thinking she did'nt care for me.
She would wait awhile and then talk to me,I was glad she did,it told me she cared about me and the way I was feeling.
I really feel that being betrayed is different for us BS's and for the WS also.
It all follows a certain script but is also like the damn snowflake.
No two are quite the same.
Just my thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



warlock07 said:


> bfree, it could also be a case of boiling frog. Only once he was separated from the house and her, could he really contrast and separate between normal and "his actual normal". He was having a regular day like he used to when a message from MrsM brings him back to the current reality of pain, doubt and suffering(Maybe the pain dullens and goes away slowly but it takes time). R or D, when Matt asks her space, I think she should give him that irrespective of how noble her intentions are.


And I would agree with that except that Mrs M was giving him his space as he requested and he was calling and texting her after/while triggering. If you go back over their respective posts you will see quite clearly that when they are separated Matt triggers unmercifully but when they are together and Mrs M is helping him he seems to do better. I would also agree with you that given time Matt's pain will lessen if they were to split up but would it also be worse and more drawn out as opposed to if they were to remain a couple. I think that he's going to trigger either way. What Matt needs to do is decide where he'd like to be in say 5 years and then commit to that path.


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## CantSitStill

It's hard because yes they feel they need space yet in Calvin's triggers he feels better when he's home with me or when I finally send him a text at work asking if he's feeling better and still text him what I am doing throughoutthe day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

As an ex WS. I feel it's worth the risk to eventually say to him "hey we need to talk it out". I don't want either of us to harbor resentment anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> I get what you're saying Warlock,I wanted space and CSS gave it but then I started thinking she did'nt care for me.
> She would wait awhile and then talk to me,I was glad she did,it told me she cared about me and the way I was feeling.
> I really feel that being betrayed is different for us BS's and for the WS also.
> It all follows a certain script but is also like the damn snowflake.
> No two are quite the same.
> Just my thoughts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're a unique snowflake calvin.


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## EI

warlock07 said:


> bfree, it could also be a case of boiling frog. Only once he was separated from the house and her, could he really contrast and separate between normal and "his actual normal". He was having a regular day like he used to when a message from MrsM brings him back to the current reality of pain, doubt and suffering(Maybe the pain dullens and goes away slowly but it takes time). R or D, when Matt asks her space, I think she should give him that irrespective of how noble her intentions are.


I think it's just really hard, Warlock. I don't even think there is a perfect or right answer.... and if there was, it would be subject to change at any given time with or without notice. This is one of the most, if not the most, difficult things that any of us will ever have to deal with in our lives. 

I know of situations where BS's have asked for space and said that they didn't want to talk about "it" unless they chose to bring it up. So, the WS didn't bring it up, but was chastised about not bringing it up a few days or weeks later. All any of us can do is listen to our spouse, try our best to read between the lines, follow our instincts, follow our hearts, use our best judgment, hope and/or pray that we made the right decision and then report it all on TAM so we can get _constructive_ feedback...... which is often conflicting.  It's hard. But, I think, in most cases, if you're here, you're trying....


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> .......it could also be a case of boiling frog.


Ewwww....... Warlock, I have to put my foot down on this one. None of that Warlock/Witchy stuff on this thread. I'm an animal lover.


----------



## Wazza

Matt, MrsM, any update? Thinking of you guys.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> You're a unique snowflake calvin.


No you did'nt bfree!!
Well,I guess I asked for it.
Thanks sugar butt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

EI said:


> I think it's just really hard, Warlock. I don't even think there is a perfect or right answer.... and if there was, it would be subject to change at any given time with or without notice. This is one of the most, if not the most, difficult things that any of us will ever have to deal with in our lives.
> 
> I know of situations where BS's have asked for space and said that they didn't want to talk about "it" unless they chose to bring it up. So, the WS didn't bring it up, but was chastised about not bringing it up a few days or weeks later. All any of us can do is listen to our spouse, try our best to read between the lines, follow our instincts, follow our hearts, use our best judgment, hope and/or pray that we made the right decision and then report it all on TAM so we can get _constructive_ feedback...... which is often conflicting.  It's hard. But, I think, in most cases, if you're here, you're trying....


I really like what you just said EI,I have asked that CSS leave me alone and then wonder why she won't text or talk to me.
Its screwd up,the WS gets confused and I don't blame CSS when I give conflicting signals like that.
Warlocks point about the boiling frog has a lot of truth to it for me.
Damn frog won't jump out if the water comes to a slow boil.
He will cook,put him in when its hot,he bolts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Good day,CSS made some excellent giant tacos,I got a lot of work done outside,I could not
Have done it all without my sons help,he's 14 and smart,little hard to get him going but
when he does start moving he gets the job done,I'd still be out there if not for his help,he's a good kid.
My daughter needs $300 for dental work after the insurance pays it part,she's 20.
I pay for her college,that's rough but she works,pays for her own car insurance and rarely ask for money.
She take her little brother out sometimes and both of my children try hard,that's a testiment to CSS and I.
At least I feel so.
CSS is asleep a couple feet away from me on the sofa.
Everything seems good.
Sorry,rambling here.
Night
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> So you don't find it interesting that all of this comes on the heels of a week when they were separated? If separation were the key why then did he trigger unmercifully when they weren't together and just before he left when they were together he declared that they were doing so much better that he officially announced that he was reconciling. I know separation worked in your case, and it may indeed work in many cases, but in their case the separation was the impetus for the mind movies, not the cure for them.


First, bfree, I'm not saying that my way is the only way, just using it as an example of a different way. The "mind movies" will happen whether Matt is home or not , with MM or not. Their most pressing problem, as I see it is the disparity between them. Of course MM now KNOWS what she wants, after all, she has had the luxury of experiencing the other side, hasn't she? So she is pushing for reconciliation. Matt, on the other hand , is being given advice on how remorseful MM is, how they can reconcile, etc. All meant to be helpful, no doubt, but not taking into consideration that from BOTH of their posts, they are nowhere's near a point where reconciliation should even be on the table. Matt is still dealing with the aftermath of the affairs. Some people take longer than others, to do this. Why not accord Matt the same consideration that posters give MM? Let him be free to do what is best for him, according to his own wants and needs. Don't advise him that separation is wrong or right or that staying together is wrong or right. I'm simply giving other options for BOTH of them to consider.


----------



## Robsia

It's been an emotional week here.

On Tuesday my eldest daughter's favourite teacher collapsed and died in the middle of the corridor at school.

The next day a guy threw himself in front of a train just around the corner from my house - literally.

On Saturday it was my mum's birthday so we had a family party. I made the mistake of confiding in my sister and my niece about what BigMac has done and what's been going on.

Of course, their advice was to leave him. They had no concept of or desire to understand my dilemma, whether to D or R, and the problems associated with that. As far as they were concerned, there was no dilemma. I should just leave.

But then, this is the sister who was in an abusive marriage for years, had an exit affair, then continued to f*ck her ex-husband for ten years after their divorce while he was in a relationship with someone else.

And this is the niece who walked out of her ten year relationship with the father of her seven-year-old son because she wanted to do stuff on her own and is all pleased with herself because her poor hapless ex-partner is still "sniffing around" after her after six months.

So, not shining examples of successful relationships there. They are both happy in their single lives and don't see why I should bother with BigMac.

But BigMac came round last night and we talked a lot and worked some stuff out and it was really nice, then he stayed overnight 

Mind you, my aforementioned darling great-nephew decided it would be fun to feed my dog curry on Saturday night. She had the squits all over the kitchen floor in the night and her fur around her rear end is still clarted up with [email protected] even though we gave her a bath yesterday. Think I may just have to cut it off there.


----------



## warlock07

EI said:


> Ewwww....... Warlock, I have to put my foot down on this one. None of that Warlock/Witchy stuff on this thread. I'm an animal lover.


EI a vegan ?


----------



## daisygirl 41

Things aren't good here.
Hubby has shut down again. 
I'm feeling something isn't right.
I am seriously thinking about giving up and leaving. I just haven't got the strength or the inclination to keep fighting for us any more.
I need to stop hurting. If we separate again it'll be for good this time and as devastated as I know I'll be I'll get through it and maybe there's a happier, calmer life beyond all this pain for the both of us.
I'm not going to fight for us anymore. I love him but I've given up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> EI a vegan ?


Not exactly..... But, I easily could be..... I truly am an animal lover....... Over the years we've had dogs, cats, rats, hamsters, lizards, a snake, a bird, lots of fish, etc........ Then there are the many outside animals we've rescued, fed, saved, returned to owners......

I really should give becoming a vegan some serious consideration. :scratchhead: I'll think about it on Tuesday. Right now I can smell the B-B-Q pork loin in my crockpot for Monday's dinner!


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## warlock07

> returned to owners......


I doubt it..




> I really should give becoming a vegan some serious consideration. I'll think about it on Tuesday. Right now I can smell the B-B-Q pork loin in my crockpot for Monday's dinner!


Yeah, right..


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Things aren't good here.
> Hubby has shut down again.
> I'm feeling something isn't right.
> I am seriously thinking about giving up and leaving. I just haven't got the strength or the inclination to keep fighting for us any more.
> I need to stop hurting. If we separate again it'll be for good this time and as devastated as I know I'll be I'll get through it and maybe there's a happier, calmer life beyond all this pain for the both of us.
> I'm not going to fight for us anymore. I love him but I've given up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh dg, I am sorry to hear this. It does seem that things have been a bit "off" for you and your hubby these last few weeks. Will he talk to you about it, at all?

When you say he has shut down, do you mean that he refuses to talk about "it," or do you mean that he says "everything is fine," but you know that it isn't? Do you feel like he is intentionally putting up a wall between the two of you? Is he becoming defensive when you try to talk to him? Is he becoming angry over the slightest things? Or picking fights out of nowhere? Is he less patient and more irritable around the children? I know that I'm asking a million questions, but I'm trying to cut to the chase. You've already been through a false "R" and you've bent over backwards to give your husband every opportunity to reconcile your marriage. 

I believe that if I were you I would demand a sit down conversation and I would tell him that you have given this your all but that he doesn't seem to be willing or able to consistently give you what you need to recover from his infidelity. I'd ask him if there is anything that he needs to talk to you about. If he says there isn't then you have a problem because the way he is behaving right now is a problem for you. Perhaps, he will open up and share what is on his mind and it will be something that the two of you can handle. If you suspect that he is cheating, again, I know this goes against the TAM logic, but I'd ask him point blank. Because, unfortunately, every BS has already learned the hard way that their WS was capable of infidelity. I think that with you having already gone through that with him that he would have a harder time lying to your face. And, I think that you would have an easier time knowing if he were being dishonest after having been through it with him twice.

You do deserve happiness, dg. You've been through so much, already. There is always the possibility that there is something bothering him but that he doesn't feel that he is "entitled" to burden you with it. I know that there are times that I'm bothered or upset about something, but I don't want to burden B1 with it. Because, honestly, I just don't feel "entitled" to indulge my own needs, especially if doing so interferes with B1's needs. So, I don't tell him what is bothering me. Of course, then it only gets worse. Then, I find myself becoming resentful towards B1 and taking it out on him, quite unfairly, because I never told him what the problem was to begin with. And, the very thing that I was tying to avoid, upsetting him, is exactly what I have accomplished doing. 

I'm really sorry that you're having such a rough time. (((Hugs)))


ETA: In all fairness to B1, he doesn't put all this guilt on me...... I do it to myself. He tells me that I've got to stop because I'm driving us both crazy.....


----------



## EI

EI said:


> I really should give becoming a vegan some serious consideration. :scratchhead: I'll think about it on Tuesday. Right now I can smell the B-B-Q pork loin in my crockpot for Monday's dinner!





warlock07 said:


> Yeah, right..












*YEAH, RIGHT!!! *


----------



## warlock07

Something tells me that you are a very good cook.. 

You should go sleep now EI..


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## EI

warlock07 said:


> Something tells me that you are a very good cook..


I been complimented on my cooking once or twice! 


warlock07 said:


> You should go sleep now EI..


What makes you think I haven't been to sleep?  I haven't, but most Mondays I'd be getting back up in 30 minutes, anyway. Total insomnia right now. I'm thinking it may be a difficult day.  But, by golly, the food is gonna be great!


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## warlock07

> But, by golly, the food is gonna be great!


Unless you mix up stuff due to lack of sleep..

Here, listen to this. Helps me sleep once in a while

Background Music Instrumentals - relaxdaily - B-Sides N°1 - YouTube


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## daisygirl 41

EI thanks for responding.
To answer your questions
He never brings up the A. When I do he mostly becomes defensive but we can sometimes have a productive conversation about it.
He's fine with the kids and he's not picking arguments or being crappy.
I just feel he's put a wall around his feelings again.
He's visiting his dad for a few days so I haven't seen him for 5 days. He's home today. I feel anxious and nervous.
My IC told me to trust my gut and my gut is telling me something is wrong.
We spoke briefly on the phone yesterday he said he's having a hard time with everything at the moment, but we both knew that things weren't going to be easy. I asked him if this was just about us or if she was involved, he said no, it's just about us. But I really don't know.

He won't go to MC, Ive asked.
He won't quit his job, I've asked.

Even if there's isn't anything going on, how on earth can HE get past this, seeing her everyday, let alone me.
I don't know what to do!
I don't know whether to keep on trying to talk to him and keep on trying or whether to just pull back and give up.
I told him yesterday that we both deserve to be happy, that I love him and always will but maybe to much has happened in the last 20 years for us to fix this so maybe we should divorce. He was silent!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

warlock07 said:


> Unless you mix up stuff due to lack of sleep..
> 
> Here, listen to this. Helps me sleep once in a while
> 
> Background Music Instrumentals - relaxdaily - B-Sides N°1 - YouTube


_That's really beautiful music........ Thank you...... :sleeping:_


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## MattMatt

EI, this might work. If you are ever up and B1 is ever down; just lightly touch the back of his hand and say "I an feeling really good today. And it is because of you."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

MattMatt
As a fellow Brit, do you the the British men generally have a harder time talking about their problems and feelings than our American cousins?
Our American friends on here seem so open about their feelings but in my experience the Brits would rather chop off their right leg than 'talk'!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> Things aren't good here.
> Hubby has shut down again.
> I'm feeling something isn't right.
> I am seriously thinking about giving up and leaving. I just haven't got the strength or the inclination to keep fighting for us any more.
> I need to stop hurting. If we separate again it'll be for good this time and as devastated as I know I'll be I'll get through it and maybe there's a happier, calmer life beyond all this pain for the both of us.
> I'm not going to fight for us anymore. I love him but I've given up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG; What do you mean by shut down?

I thought about something when I read your post. You have always had that positive outlook on things, well, almost always anyway.... and you have often made me either smile or relax which is not an easy task given circumstances.

So, here's an idea for you, me and others who bother. Most of the good times I've had, on my own or with my wife, is characterized by one thing: I didn't fight, I let go. Fighting and struggling often suggest that you try to change the facts and the way things are, which is a fight you're going to lose.

Maybe it's time to do a 180, stop arguing with reality, accept the situation, your husband, yourself (thanks B1). Then of course you need to decide wether you want to stay with your husband or not.

And IMO, be carefull not to dwell too much on feelings and thoughts as they created in your mind - and what I have come to realize, the mind often has its own ways of deceiving you.

Stay strong for you.


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## cpacan

Just realized the Q was answered when I was composing my post, sorry for rehashing.


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## frank29

Hi DG4 In my experience it is the females who will not tell you how they feel about their feelings and rarely put many points forward and just clam up 
Frank


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## MattMatt

daisygirl 41 said:


> MattMatt
> As a fellow Brit, do you the the British men generally have a harder time talking about their problems and feelings than our American cousins?
> Our American friends on here seem so open about their feelings but in my experience the Brits would rather chop off their right leg than 'talk'!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is true. To this day, nobody knows about my wife's affair. (Her late mum knew, bless her!) Some one at work congratulated me on my perfect, loving marriage. They said "It's lovely to know that you and your wife love each other so much that you'd never cheat on each other! " Which is precisely what we did do.

I made some general comment but said no more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> MattMatt
> As a fellow Brit, do you the the British men generally have a harder time talking about their problems and feelings than our American cousins?
> Our American friends on here seem so open about their feelings but in my experience the Brits would rather chop off their right leg than 'talk'!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know it was directed at Matt, but my experience is that it is more a question about personality types.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> MattMatt
> As a fellow Brit, do you the the British men generally have a harder time talking about their problems and feelings than our American cousins?
> Our American friends on here seem so open about their feelings but in my experience the Brits would rather chop off their right leg than 'talk'!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know about Brits but as a fellow human and man I can't imagine how difficult it is for him to try to wall up his feelings at work in order to keep his former AP from "getting in" and then tear down that wall when he comes home to you. I honestly don't see how R can succeed with him still working there. Why won't he find another job?


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## daisygirl 41

Cpacan
Thanks for responding. No worries about rehashing.
Of course you are right in everything you say. I DID have a very positive outlook for us and 'things' were going really well but something inside me changed. I have become anxious and quite negative about the past and the future and I KNOW this has had a negative effect on our R and on my H. He feels guilty. He feels ally anxieties are his fault and of course to some extent he is right, but I've told him Ive stopped blaming him long ago and it's just something we both have to deal with.

I sort of feel I ha e had a mini breakdown of sorts and really can't rely in my own perception of things any more. I just don't know what to believe.
We have had a tough time this last 2 years. The A, my cancer scare AND hubby being suspended from work. That went on for 8 months and he had to attend 3 disciplinary hearings. He was cleared in the end and he returned to work but all of this has really put a strain in me. Add to that, a H who finds it extremely difficult to open up emotionally and it's a record for disaster.

When he was off work for 8 months, things were really great and the signs were so positive. We spent a lot of time together rebuilding. It's basically gone down hill since he's gone back to work. I really struggle with it to be honest and he knows that, hence the guilt just gets resurrected all over again.

I spoke to a co worker last night. She said there are no signs that he is cheating again and she is keeping a watch out. But there were no signs before. Nobody in work had a clue and they work in a very small place. This co worker did tell me though that the OWs marriage, which initially was doing well is now also in pieces! A coincidence? I don't know. But she did hint that this wasn't the first A this woman had!!

I agree cpacan I think I do need to do a 180 of sorts but I am going to ask him tonight if he wants to talk to me about anything and if he doesn't ill leave it there.
One good thing, we have a week off work now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Sorry for any typos. I'm on my mobile x


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## MattMatt

cpacan said:


> I know it was directed at Matt, but my experience is that it is more a question about personality types.


Nah, mate! There's more to it than that! What you say is true, but there's the daft "stiff upper lip" thing in Britain. 

You are supposed not to talk about yucky emotional stuff if you are a bloke. 

It really isn't the done thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

bfree said:


> I don't know about Brits but as a fellow human and man I can't imagine how difficult it is for him to try to wall up his feelings at work in order to keep his former AP from "getting in" and then tear down that wall when he comes home to you. I honestly don't see how R can succeed with him still working there. Why won't he find another job?


Because despite his suspension last year he is doing really well in his job and there are big plans for him there.
Also, and I know this is a crummy reason but his place of work is literally 5 mins drive away. The neatest place that specialises in his type of teaching is over an hour away, a bit of a logistical nightmare as I work shifts, 3 nights away from home during the week. It would just add more pressure.
Excuses? Maybe! 

There is still a chance she will not get her contract renewed in Sept. she is still on a temp contract and the management are making cut backs. I think it would make a huge difference.
I often wonder why HER H hasn't insisted she find another job!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

frank29 said:


> Hi DG4 In my experience it is the females who will not tell you how they feel about their feelings and rarely put many points forward and just clam up
> Frank


Really? I'm like an open book to anyone who wants to listen!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> First, bfree, I'm not saying that my way is the only way, just using it as an example of a different way. The "mind movies" will happen whether Matt is home or not , with MM or not. Their most pressing problem, as I see it is the disparity between them. Of course MM now KNOWS what she wants, after all, she has had the luxury of experiencing the other side, hasn't she? So she is pushing for reconciliation. Matt, on the other hand , is being given advice on how remorseful MM is, how they can reconcile, etc. All meant to be helpful, no doubt, but not taking into consideration that from BOTH of their posts, they are nowhere's near a point where reconciliation should even be on the table. Matt is still dealing with the aftermath of the affairs. Some people take longer than others, to do this. Why not accord Matt the same consideration that posters give MM? Let him be free to do what is best for him, according to his own wants and needs. Don't advise him that separation is wrong or right or that staying together is wrong or right. I'm simply giving other options for BOTH of them to consider.


Rookie, I am on record as saying, repeatedly, that Matt has enough reason to divorce should he chose. So I am NOT pushing reconciliation.

That said, I disagree with your statement that reconciliation should not yet be on the table. Reconciliation is a continuous process, not a switch you flick at a point in time. Matt is entitled to try to reconcile if he choses, then conclude over time it won't work and leave.


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## Robsia

daisygirl 41 said:


> EI thanks for responding.
> To answer your questions
> He never brings up the A. When I do he mostly becomes defensive but we can sometimes have a productive conversation about it.
> He's fine with the kids and he's not picking arguments or being crappy.
> I just feel he's put a wall around his feelings again.
> He's visiting his dad for a few days so I haven't seen him for 5 days. He's home today. I feel anxious and nervous.
> My IC told me to trust my gut and my gut is telling me something is wrong.
> We spoke briefly on the phone yesterday he said he's having a hard time with everything at the moment, but we both knew that things weren't going to be easy. I asked him if this was just about us or if she was involved, he said no, it's just about us. But I really don't know.
> 
> He won't go to MC, Ive asked.
> He won't quit his job, I've asked.
> 
> Even if there's isn't anything going on, how on earth can HE get past this, seeing her everyday, let alone me.
> I don't know what to do!
> I don't know whether to keep on trying to talk to him and keep on trying or whether to just pull back and give up.
> I told him yesterday that we both deserve to be happy, that I love him and always will but maybe to much has happened in the last 20 years for us to fix this so maybe we should divorce. He was silent!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so sorry to hear things aren't going well for you at the moment.

Our emotions are on such a knife edge that when it's good it's really good, but as soon as something goes wrong, the inclination to run for the hills and give up is so strong.

I'm so scared of things going wrong for us that the second BigMac stops being the perfect WS, even for a moment, I start to panic and wonder if I'm doing the right thing.

I hope you get to the bottom of whatever is wrong (((hugs)))


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## daisygirl 41

Thanks Robsia,
The one difference this time though, I'm not scared anymore. I just want to know the truth. If he's 100% in this or he's not. If he's not, then we are done. I'm afraid of the heartache again, but ultimately not afraid of a new life and new future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thanks Robsia,
> The one difference this time though, I'm not scared anymore. I just want to know the truth. If he's 100% in this or he's not. If he's not, then we are done. I'm afraid of the heartache again, but ultimately not afraid of a new life and new future.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Arrrhh.... Daisygirl, you want what I want, which I wrote about last week - you should read all the supportive answers I received. Bottom line is, you can't have 100% certainty.
But it's good that you are stronger and can handle it.


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Cpacan
> Thanks for responding. No worries about rehashing.
> Of course you are right in everything you say. I DID have a very positive outlook for us and 'things' were going really well but something inside me changed. I have become anxious and quite negative about the past and the future and I KNOW this has had a negative effect on our R and on my H. He feels guilty. He feels ally anxieties are his fault and of course to some extent he is right, but I've told him Ive stopped blaming him long ago and it's just something we both have to deal with.
> 
> I sort of feel I ha e had a mini breakdown of sorts and really can't rely in my own perception of things any more. I just don't know what to believe.
> We have had a tough time this last 2 years. The A, my cancer scare AND hubby being suspended from work. That went on for 8 months and he had to attend 3 disciplinary hearings. He was cleared in the end and he returned to work but all of this has really put a strain in me. Add to that, a H who finds it extremely difficult to open up emotionally and it's a record for disaster.
> 
> When he was off work for 8 months, things were really great and the signs were so positive. We spent a lot of time together rebuilding. It's basically gone down hill since he's gone back to work. I really struggle with it to be honest and he knows that, hence the guilt just gets resurrected all over again.
> 
> I spoke to a co worker last night. She said there are no signs that he is cheating again and she is keeping a watch out. But there were no signs before. Nobody in work had a clue and they work in a very small place. This co worker did tell me though that the OWs marriage, which initially was doing well is now also in pieces! A coincidence? I don't know. But she did hint that this wasn't the first A this woman had!!
> 
> I agree cpacan I think I do need to do a 180 of sorts but I am going to ask him tonight if he wants to talk to me about anything and if he doesn't ill leave it there.
> One good thing, we have a week off work now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Sorry for any typos. I'm on my mobile x


so sorry, dg. like someone else mentioned, i've seen that things weren't quite right between you and your H recently. i had all the questions that EI asked, many of which you have answered by now.

just to clarify for myself, sounds like there are many things in the mix right now:

* H works with OW, and his leaving work/changing jobs is not possible 

* you two have had some stresses in your life that would throw *anyone* for a loop, A or not: job suspension, cancer scare

* your H finds it difficult to open up about feelings. omg, do i understand about this one. do you remember some of my posts from last year? my husband could literally sit with me, angry, mostly silent, for HOURS. sometimes he would look distant or confused, other times he seemed to be having some kind of conversation in his head, but he could barely produce a single word. what he would say was defensive or resistant. eventually he began to just refuse outright to engage in further conversation about the As.

* you've said that he refuses MC. so did mine. the first time that i got him to agree to go, he went sullenly, did no real work, and told lies right there in the MC's office.

* coworker who is a friend to your marriage sees no evidence that anything is going on between your H and OW

* this:


> I have become anxious and quite negative about the past and the future and I KNOW this has had a negative effect on our R and on my H...I sort of feel I ha e had a mini breakdown of sorts and really can't rely in my own perception of things any more.


more than enough here to feel anxious about 

here are some things that i am wondering about as i try to sort through these pieces:

what does your H think is going on right now? what does he think is interfering with R?

your negative feelings, your "mini-breakdown".... can you describe more about what is happening for you?

okay, hoping that you will keep us updated, dg. xxx mg


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## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Because despite his suspension last year he is doing really well in his job and there are big plans for him there.
> Also, and I know this is a crummy reason but his place of work is literally 5 mins drive away. The neatest place that specialises in his type of teaching is over an hour away, a bit of a logistical nightmare as I work shifts, 3 nights away from home during the week. It would just add more pressure.
> Excuses? Maybe!
> 
> There is still a chance she will not get her contract renewed in Sept. she is still on a temp contract and the management are making cut backs. I think it would make a huge difference.
> I often wonder why HER H hasn't insisted she find another job!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think both you and your husband have to decide what is more important. That you stay married or that he has sufficient income to support you after you divorce. Because in all honesty I don't think you can have both. The stress of him working with her is probably what is eating away at you. And the impossible task he has of constantly putting up and tearing down a wall around his emotions will probably cause him to just start leaving the wall up all the time. In general, men aren't very emotional to begin with. We tend to put up walls anyway. How can he be expected to open up to you, a necessary process during R, when he has to lobotomize his emotional center to be able to work with his former lover? Its just not going to work long term and short term its damaging your relationship. You keep hoping her contract won't be renewed. But this back and forth you both are doing might end your marriage long before then. Frankly it sounds to me like you're both exhausted. R is hard enough without adding this additional stress.

Is the employer aware of the affair? If not maybe they should be told. If she is on a temp contract and your husband is highly regarded, is it possible that the employer would dump her if your husband said he was leaving because it was too hard to continue working with her?

And maybe the reason her husband is not making her leave is because he is not planning to stay married to her. If she quits then he might have to pay her alimony in a divorce settlement.


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## Lister

daisygirl 41 said:


> Because despite his suspension last year he is doing really well in his job and there are big plans for him there.
> Also, and I know this is a crummy reason but his place of work is literally 5 mins drive away. The neatest place that specialises in his type of teaching is over an hour away, a bit of a logistical nightmare as I work shifts, 3 nights away from home during the week. It would just add more pressure.
> Excuses? Maybe!
> 
> There is still a chance she will not get her contract renewed in Sept. she is still on a temp contract and the management are making cut backs. I think it would make a huge difference.
> I often wonder why HER H hasn't insisted she find another job!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi DG, as a WS (and a British bloke) i feel i should say something about your H. 

He sounds a lot like me, finding it really hard to communicate his feelings and doing whatever he can to avoid talking about the A. Does he look like a startled rabbit in headlights whenever you bring it up? I know i do.

I cannot believe that he is still working with the AP, I'm sure I'm not the first person to say that. My AP was a former work colleague but having NC has been essential for Stargazer and me having any chance of R at all, and it has still been incredibly tough. If the AP had still been on the scene there would be no hope. 

He may feel that he can handle her being around, that he is strong enough to 'resist' any temptation but that's not the point. You have to suffer everyday that he is working wondering what is happening and that is akin to torture i would have thought. 

It seems to me irrelevent that he has good career prospects where he is or that it would be inconvenient to move to a place of work an hour away. It also doesn't matter that she may leave in September, it is now that matters. Not changing his place of work is suspicious to me as a WS. Breaking off all contact with my AP was essential for me to break away from the illusion and fog of the A. Now the thought of her repulses me and i hate the thought of and memories of the A. I think NC is essential to be able to R, and essential for your sanity.

I'm sorry if this is not helpful or you have heard it before, but i think this is a non-negotiable principle. Ask him how he would feel if roles were reversed and he had to suffer you being in continuous close proximity to a former AP. He must understand the pain this is causing and that nothing can justify causing that pain.


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## bfree

Lister said:


> Hi DG, as a WS (and a British bloke) i feel i should say something about your H.
> 
> He sounds a lot like me, finding it really hard to communicate his feelings and doing whatever he can to avoid talking about the A. Does he look like a startled rabbit in headlights whenever you bring it up? I know i do.
> 
> I cannot believe that he is still working with the AP, I'm sure I'm not the first person to say that. My AP was a former work colleague but having NC has been essential for Stargazer and me having any chance of R at all, and it has still been incredibly tough. If the AP had still been on the scene there would be no hope.
> 
> He may feel that he can handle her being around, that he is strong enough to 'resist' any temptation but that's not the point. You have to suffer everyday that he is working wondering what is happening and that is akin to torture i would have thought.
> 
> It seems to me irrelevent that he has good career prospects where he is or that it would be inconvenient to move to a place of work an hour away. It also doesn't matter that she may leave in September, it is now that matters. Not changing his place of work is suspicious to me as a WS. Breaking off all contact with my AP was essential for me to break away from the illusion and fog of the A. Now the thought of her repulses me and i hate the thought of and memories of the A. I think NC is essential to be able to R, and essential for your sanity.
> 
> I'm sorry if this is not helpful or you have heard it before, but i think this is a non-negotiable principle. *Ask him how he would feel if roles were reversed and he had to suffer you being in continuous close proximity to a former AP.* He must understand the pain this is causing and that nothing can justify causing that pain.


This is a very good point. DG, if he doesn't see how this affects the two of you ask him how he'd feel if you started working with or spending time with a former boyfriend? I'd bet he'd feel extremely uneasy at the very least. This is your biggest obstacle to a successful R in my opinion.


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## teeny5172

Isn't that the truth, my husband cheated 3 years ago and I am still not over it, we are still together. I am positive it was not the first time or the last.


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## hopefulgirl

DG, I really feel for you. The ups and downs of R are horrendous. Though I think I've only been in False R myself so far - WS hasn't really been emotionally stable enough (except on a few occasions) to answer my questions, so everything as far as R work is concerned is pretty much on hold while he's getting treatment for his anxiety disorder. (Except for some couple activities, goodwill building stuff.)

I have felt on more than one occasion that I couldn't take it any more. It's all too much. But I keep trying to take the long view - and ask myself, when this current bad mood passes, will I wish that I had stuck it out? I keep answering yes. The person that my WS is essentially is someone that I want to give another chance. There are TIMES I'm not so sure. But if I wait for the really low moods to pass, I keep coming back to being ready to try again.


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## EI

EI said:


> Not exactly..... But, I easily could be..... I truly am an animal lover....... Over the years we've had dogs, cats, rats, hamsters, lizards, a snake, a bird, lots of fish, etc........ Then there are the many outside animals we've rescued, fed, saved, returned to owners......


A ferret...... I forgot about Tucker, the ferret. 

Sorry for popping in and out with such insignificant drivel. Sometimes, I just don't have the emotional capacity in reserve to address the "heavier stuff." 

My family has always said that I have two speeds: High and off. Not medium or low; either high, as in warp speed, or off, as in collapsed in exhaustion. 

I hope everyone is having a nice Memorial Day with family and friends, or at least enjoying a long weekend, despite all the various challenges that we're each dealing with in our lives....

If you see a veteran today don't forget to thank him/her for their service.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Matt's still here, we're hanging in there. Friday was tough, Saturday was better and Sunday was a really nice day. We socialized Saturday and Sunday nights with area friends, our son ran around and played with a bunch of other kids and had the time of his life. Today was a harder start, but Matt was really great about talking with me about what he has been thinking and feeling. I'm hopeful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

I really think it is about being apart. When BigMac and I are together I feel so much happier and calmer about things. I enjoy being wth him, I feel happy, and I KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING.

When we are apart, I miss him, I get low, I worry about what he is up to and I think about what he did and get angry.

Right now he is several hundred miles away on his way to start his new job which will involve two days a week working away. I miss him


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## CantSitStill

Yeah it's true, if Calvin hasn't heard from me in a while he asks "are you home, where are you?" I'm always home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Robsia said:


> I really think it is about being apart. When BigMac and I are together I feel so much happier and calmer about things. I enjoy being wth him, I feel happy, and I KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING.
> 
> When we are apart, I miss him, I get low, I worry about what he is up to and I think about what he did and get angry.
> 
> Right now he is several hundred miles away on his way to start his new job which will involve two days a week working away. I miss him


Have you made a decision about moving back in with him?


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## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt's still here, we're hanging in there. Friday was tough, Saturday was better and Sunday was a really nice day. We socialized Saturday and Sunday nights with area friends, our son ran around and played with a bunch of other kids and had the time of his life. Today was a harder start, but Matt was really great about talking with me about what he has been thinking and feeling. I'm hopeful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Glad to hear this.
Mrs. Don't give up fighting, ever.


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## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt's still here, we're hanging in there. Friday was tough, Saturday was better and Sunday was a really nice day. We socialized Saturday and Sunday nights with area friends, our son ran around and played with a bunch of other kids and had the time of his life. Today was a harder start, but Matt was really great about talking with me about what he has been thinking and feeling. I'm hopeful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes, just the tiniest bit of normalcy can feel so good and bring about a sense of balance in your life. Try to make the most of these moments.

It does seem that Matt did better after he got back home. B1 says he always triggers more when he is away from me.


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## CantSitStill

I bet Calvin totally agrees with what you just said EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

EI said:


> Sometimes, just the tiniest bit of normalcy can feel so good and bring about a sense of balance in your life. Try to make the most of these moments.
> 
> It does seem that Matt did better after he got back home. B1 says he always triggers more when he is away from me.


Yes I agree,away from CSS I tend to trigger more,my work station on my mill is a huge trigger.
I can trigger for ten minuets or hours.
When I get home it melts away,its not that I think she is doing something behind my back.
Its all the bad memories I have in that spot,trying to talk to her,text her and being shotdown every time.
99% of the time I'm good when I get home and get some hugs,kisses and talk to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

There are a lot of likes I'd like to give out to all of you but the desktop function on this smartphone sucks.
I should have my computer done soon and working,then I can do the likes again.
Man...Pawn Stars marathon on today.
I can dig it and I got lucky today....lucky everyday.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

hopefulgirl said:


> DG, I really feel for you. The ups and downs of R are horrendous. Though I think I've only been in False R myself so far - WS hasn't really been emotionally stable enough (except on a few occasions) to answer my questions, so everything as far as R work is concerned is pretty much on hold while he's getting treatment for his anxiety disorder. (Except for some couple activities, goodwill building stuff.)
> 
> I have felt on more than one occasion that I couldn't take it any more. It's all too much. But I keep trying to take the long view - and ask myself, when this current bad mood passes, will I wish that I had stuck it out? I keep answering yes. The person that my WS is essentially is someone that I want to give another chance. There are TIMES I'm not so sure. But if I wait for the really low moods to pass, I keep coming back to being ready to try again.



Is your H still seeing the IC that you weren't real pleased with? Is he being any more open with what he is discussing in IC? The difference between good IC and bad IC can be the difference between a successful reconciliation and a divorce.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Rookie, I am on record as saying, repeatedly, that Matt has enough reason to divorce should he chose. So I am NOT pushing reconciliation.
> 
> That said, I disagree with your statement that reconciliation should not yet be on the table. Reconciliation is a continuous process, not a switch you flick at a point in time. Matt is entitled to try to reconcile if he choses, then conclude over time it won't work and leave.


Wazza, I think that MM and Matt have enough on their plate with the up-coming birth of a child. I feel that it is too difficult (on both of them) to reconcile from infidelity, rebuild a marriage (or not), plan for any kind of future, in addition to pregnancy and it's own set of problems. My advice would be to put the R on the back burner, MM to concentrate on her baby and her own health, Matt to concentrate on his own healing and his up-coming parenthood, and begin to plan for both eventualities. Married or divorced and co-parenting. This isn't the time or place to try to convince either of them as to what is best for their situation. Clearly Matt is entitled to choose to R but he is also entitled to choose D as well, and he has expressed support for BOTH, at different times. I feel that it is NOT our place to try to convince EITHER of them towards any course of action. In their situation, I think it's best to present all of the alternatives and let them do the choosing for themselves. Which is what will happen anyway. I have said many times, it isn't the marriage that is important, it is the people in it, and their well-being. I would also counsel them to explore co-parenting as well as reconciliation.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Sometimes, just the tiniest bit of normalcy can feel so good and bring about a sense of balance in your life. Try to make the most of these moments.
> 
> It does seem that Matt did better after he got back home. B1 says he always triggers more when he is away from me.


I think that is one of the biggest differences between B1 and myself. When I found out about the A, I kicked Sweetie out, not only of my house, but my heart as well, so not too many mind movies, at all. 
I'm also pretty certain that if we had stayed together then, we would not be together now. I don't recommend 2 1/2 years, but a time away from each other, to reflect on what we truly want, cannot be a bad thing for either the BS or WS. No couple can get to the future, if both have different ideas as to what that future entails.


----------



## daisygirl 41

*carpenoctem*???

Thank you all for you support yesterday. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment so can't reply to you all individually, but will try to later on when I'm feeling better.
Same as Calvin, a lot of posts I want to 'like' but can't from my phone.
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thanks for asking, EI. Unfortunately, he's still seeing her. It was only after a "scene" in which I told him it was a trigger for me that he was so secretive about talking to her about me, as it was similar to how he talked to the OW about me (since I know in both cases there's been complaining involved) - but he finally told me some things. I didn't like what I heard.

The "boundary" stuff is frightening. He has threatenened more than once since D-Day to change the passwords to his credit cards because of my "snooping." (He actually did it once, but then told me the new passwords.) I told him I don't think it sounds like she has much training in marriage counseling - he said she admits she's not a marriage counselor - because the term boundaries in the context of a marriage should come into play when you discuss the boundaries AROUND the couple, not putting up "appropriate" boundaries BETWEEN the people in a couple, which the counselor seems to advocate.

At one point, I got hopeful - he asked if it would make me more comfortable if he would switch to to a male counselor at the place he goes to and I said YES! Figuring it MIGHT be someone better. But he quickly backed off, saying something to the effect of it would be caving in yet again (I think he's getting the message from his counselor that he "goes along" and has "weak boundaries" and that's why he's so "miserable").

He's said more than once that I should be in IC. I think that's another message from his IC, though I don't ask why he's said that. I tell him I have a support group (you guys right here). Between books and the support I've gotten here, I don't feel I need it, but I've also been afraid it might be one more reason for him to avoid MC.

In fact, I asked the other day about MC, and at first he said no - then he said he'd think about it. One of the reasons he said no was the expense (but it's OK for me to be in IC??). So the door isn't shut on MC. But he may not be ready anyway - I think he's still "self-medicating" with his hobbies, having spent another $400 just today (the monthly total will easily go over $1000 again - but MC at $100/week is too expensive!). I'm not sure the new medication is working, and I don't know how much his counseling is really helping him with his anxiety disorder (there was a little progress at first, but none in awhile), so things are really on hold for now.

He's been in a huggy mood, which is one positive thing, so it's not all bad. But healing for me is stalled. 

I hope things are looking good for you healthwise and R-wise. Take care of YOU.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, I think that MM and Matt have enough on their plate with the up-coming birth of a child. I feel that it is too difficult (on both of them) to reconcile from infidelity, rebuild a marriage (or not), plan for any kind of future, in addition to pregnancy and it's own set of problems. My advice would be to put the R on the back burner, MM to concentrate on her baby and her own health, Matt to concentrate on his own healing and his up-coming parenthood, and begin to plan for both eventualities. Married or divorced and co-parenting. This isn't the time or place to try to convince either of them as to what is best for their situation. Clearly Matt is entitled to choose to R but he is also entitled to choose D as well, and he has expressed support for BOTH, at different times. I feel that it is NOT our place to try to convince EITHER of them towards any course of action. In their situation, I think it's best to present all of the alternatives and let them do the choosing for themselves. Which is what will happen anyway. I have said many times, it isn't the marriage that is important, it is the people in it, and their well-being. I would also counsel them to explore co-parenting as well as reconciliation.


Well, I am curious...do you think I am trying to encourage one path or the other? I honestly am not.

But Matt has to cope with something. He gets to choose whether it's reconciliation, divorce or some sort of limbo for a while, but he can't choose nothing.


----------



## Robsia

EI said:


> Have you made a decision about moving back in with him?


We've talked a lot about that. One of the problems we had before was that the house we lived in together was HIS house. He had lived there with his former wife and children.

I didn't want to move in with him into that house and he had tried to sell it before we got married, with no success. So in the end I had no choice but to move in.

But I always felt like an interloper, I never particularly liked the house anyway and I had resented him because I had had to move out of my home. Okay, it was rented, but I'd been there for five years and I loved it. I often got the phrase "it's MY house" hurled at me during our arguments and although I retaliated with "it's my house too. I live here too," I never felt that it truly was my house. 

So, we think it would be best if we didn't live together in that house again.

It's been for sale since I moved out, so almost a year so we do still have the problem of selling it, but we think it is better if we find a house that is OURS, not just his. Renting his house out is out of the question as we need the equity in the old house for a deposit on the new one.

It is a bigger commitment on both sides than me just moving back in with him but I feel that it is important that we see each other MAKING that commitment if you know what I mean.

We have found one we want to look at. It is huge, a former rest home, with plenty of space for us all, and all our things. We can each have our own offices, my girls can have a big room each, there are even spare rooms for when his boys come to stay. We both bought gym stuff while we were apart so we can have a dedicated gym room - it would be awesome. It needs a lot of work, but it can be a long-term project we can work on together.

We're going to look at it next week to see if the work is just cosmetic or if there are more serious problems with it that we aren't prepared to tackle. It's been on the market for a while so it could be just too much work. But at least we are looking. And if it is just cosmetic it could be awesome when it's finished.

I can't completely make the decision yet. It still depends on him, whether he continues to pull his weight in the R and how the MC goes, whether we think we can overcome our problems, but I think seeing that, if all those things go well, that he sees I AM ready to move back in with him and make this commitment, actually knowing that will help them to go well (holy run-on sentence, Batman ). But the time it will take for any move to take place will enable us to see how things are going with us.

He phoned me last night as soon as he got to where he is working, and then texted me immediately after the phone call again to say good night with kisses and lovey emoticons


----------



## bfree

Robsia, even the action of working on the house together would be cementing it as YOUR house.


----------



## warlock07

EI, Hope B1 and you are feeling better today..


----------



## bfree

Hopefulgirl, have you thought about asking to meet with his counselor to discuss your concerns and how she could help the marriage.


----------



## margrace

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt's still here, we're hanging in there. Friday was tough, Saturday was better and Sunday was a really nice day. We socialized Saturday and Sunday nights with area friends, our son ran around and played with a bunch of other kids and had the time of his life. Today was a harder start, but Matt was really great about talking with me about what he has been thinking and feeling. I'm hopeful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


so glad to hear about that really nice day, mrs. m


----------



## hopefulgirl

bfree said:


> Hopefulgirl, have you thought about asking to meet with his counselor to discuss your concerns and how she could help the marriage.


bfree, this is the one who seems to espouse the codependency stuff, so I doubt very much she could be of much help. Not to mention the fact that I trigger at the thought of going into that counseling office.

WS and I had a few couples counseling sessions in that place, with one of her colleagues. WS went ballistic when he says I "betrayed" him by bringing up in that session his various hobbies and, in his view, portrayed him as a "hoarder" by mentioning that he had collected over 200 model kits that he had not yet put together (most of which he probably wouldn't ever have time to do, given the speed at which he makes them and continues to buy them). He didn't storm out until the end of the session, but the counselor was actually concerned about my safety - he was that hot under the collar. 

It was less than a month later, on a business trip, that he texted 2 different women, one at 11:59 pm and another at 12:00 midnight (who later became the OW). He was still angry at me about this so-called "betrayal" in that office (he still is!) and I think that made it OK in his mind to betray ME. So I see that building as the place that started him on the road to his affair.

Plus, now he's seeing Ms Codependency Coach, who tells him it's OK not to tell me anything about his sessions with her. I trigger like crazy every time I know he's with her, because she's allowing him to speak about me in "unflattering" terms, just as the OW did. I don't think I could sit in that building in a room with her without starting to visibly shake.

I found an article about bad marriage counseling that mentioned "going alone to individual counseling for marriage problems increases the chance of divorce, research shows. That's because the client is telling only one side of the story to an empathetic therapist, so it becomes a gripe session about how unhappy the person is in the relationship and the absent partner starts to look even more like a monster, exacerbating the couple's polarization."

I suspect she may be the one who encouraged him to change the passwords on his credit card accounts because of my "snooping" but I can't be sure of that. In any event, I can't face her myself. But I'm tempted to show WS this article and ask him to refocus his therapy back to his anxiety disorder and keep me out of it because otherwise his therapy may drive us apart. He says I come up now as a major "stressor" but I think I'm going to say that she's crossing over into marriage issues and that's not her area of expertise; better to work on some other stressors.


----------



## SomedayDig

Gosh. Nothing makes me more angry than when I read about a betrayed being accused of "snooping". Ummm...HELLO...you cheated so it's called being accountable!!!

As for the whole hobby thing, well, I can't hold my tongue on that. He sounds like a selfish little man-boy who doesn't want to grow up and wants you to be there as "mommy".

He's blameshifted almost everything on you with the help of his counselor. He sees nothing wrong because there really haven't been any "real" consequences for his actions. You've been there for him. Too bad he's never done the same for you and will continue to do what he wants as long as you allow him.

This angers me mostly because I have had Regret work pretty hard for our reconciliation on a daily basis. You've gotten squat.


----------



## russell28

SomedayDig said:


> Gosh. Nothing makes me more angry than when I read about a betrayed being accused of "snooping". Ummm...HELLO...you cheated so it's called being accountable!!!
> 
> As for the whole hobby thing, well, I can't hold my tongue on that. He sounds like a selfish little man-boy who doesn't want to grow up and wants you to be there as "mommy".
> 
> He's blameshifted almost everything on you with the help of his counselor. He sees nothing wrong because there really haven't been any "real" consequences for his actions. You've been there for him. Too bad he's never done the same for you and will continue to do what he wants as long as you allow him.
> 
> This angers me mostly because I have had Regret work pretty hard for our reconciliation on a daily basis. You've gotten squat.


I felt guilt about snooping.. Following her to find out where she's going.. I felt nothing but guilt and shame ("what am i doing?, this is wrong"), until I saw her in the coffee shop window saying 'that's my husband' to him.. as she saw me staring at them through the window. Guilt turned into confusion, denial, hurt, anger, more confusion, more anger, more pain... sadness.... 

I wish I followed my gut and snooped sooner...


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



hopefulgirl said:


> bfree, this is the one who seems to espouse the codependency stuff, so I doubt very much she could be of much help. Not to mention the fact that I trigger at the thought of going into that counseling office.
> 
> WS and I had a few couples counseling sessions in that place, with one of her colleagues. WS went ballistic when he says I "betrayed" him by bringing up in that session his various hobbies and, in his view, portrayed him as a "hoarder" by mentioning that he had collected over 200 model kits that he had not yet put together (most of which he probably wouldn't ever have time to do, given the speed at which he makes them and continues to buy them). He didn't storm out until the end of the session, but the counselor was actually concerned about my safety - he was that hot under the collar.
> 
> It was less than a month later, on a business trip, that he texted 2 different women, one at 11:59 pm and another at 12:00 midnight (who later became the OW). He was still angry at me about this so-called "betrayal" in that office (he still is!) and I think that made it OK in his mind to betray ME. So I see that building as the place that started him on the road to his affair.
> 
> Plus, now he's seeing Ms Codependency Coach, who tells him it's OK not to tell me anything about his sessions with her. I trigger like crazy every time I know he's with her, because she's allowing him to speak about me in "unflattering" terms, just as the OW did. I don't think I could sit in that building in a room with her without starting to visibly shake.
> 
> I found an article about bad marriage counseling that mentioned "going alone to individual counseling for marriage problems increases the chance of divorce, research shows. That's because the client is telling only one side of the story to an empathetic therapist, so it becomes a gripe session about how unhappy the person is in the relationship and the absent partner starts to look even more like a monster, exacerbating the couple's polarization."
> 
> I suspect she may be the one who encouraged him to change the passwords on his credit card accounts because of my "snooping" but I can't be sure of that. In any event, I can't face her myself. But I'm tempted to show WS this article and ask him to refocus his therapy back to his anxiety disorder and keep me out of it because otherwise his therapy may drive us apart. He says I come up now as a major "stressor" but I think I'm going to say that she's crossing over into marriage issues and that's not her area of expertise; better to work on some other stressors.


But wouldn't you meeting with her alleviate some of the misconceptions she may have about you? And if you came armed with couple friendly information, like from Dr. Harley, and challenged her to show you how the counseling sessions are helping in any way, wouldn't it be better than seething in silence? It seems to me that if these counseling sessions are poisoning the well it should be your goal to amend them or at least to show your husband that there is more he should be working on if he wants to stay with you.


----------



## margrace

very helpful to read everyone's comments this morning about triggering when we are alone. i'm thinking about it now as i am here by myself after a really nice long weekend.

so true -- it's almost like being alone can be a little bit of a trigger _all by itself_ sometimes. maybe because it was while we were alone, just like this, that the A was happening out there somewhere. 

and it was while we were alone, just like this, that we were seeing the signs, doing that awful detective work, connecting the dots, dealing with the shock, etc. 

on the other hand, when i am with my fWH, that gets replaced by a real person, a person whom i love and who is working hard at R. R becomes human, i can see it and relate to it and believe in it, instead of feeling like these painful uncontrollable ghosts are swirling around me and carrying me away into memories of the A... which was happening while i was alone, just like this.

oh my, i am SO tired of going there  

today i do believe that my fWH is committed to doing everything he can on his end, so i need to, i _want_ to reclaim my alone time away from A. starting right now 

reminds me of things that others of you have written about wanting and choosing happiness.


----------



## SomedayDig

russell28 said:


> I felt guilt about snooping.. Following her to find out where she's going.. I felt nothing but guilt and shame ("what am i doing?, this is wrong"), until I saw her in the coffee shop window saying 'that's my husband' to him.. as she saw me staring at them through the window. Guilt turned into confusion, denial, hurt, anger, more confusion, more anger, more pain... sadness....
> 
> I wish I followed my gut and snooped sooner...


Brother, you are a better man than I. If I had been in your shoes that coffee shop would've looked like a 1950's Wild West set after a shootout. 

I hate that you or anyone of us has to go through the horrific injustice of catching our spouse in an affair. 



margrace said:


> very helpful to read everyone's comments this morning about triggering when we are alone. i'm thinking about it now as i am here by myself after a really nice long weekend.
> 
> so true -- it's almost like being alone can be a little bit of a trigger _all by itself_ sometimes. maybe because it was while we were alone, just like this, that the A was happening out there somewhere.
> 
> and it was while we were alone, just like this, that we were seeing the signs, doing that awful detective work, connecting the dots, dealing with the shock, etc.
> 
> on the other hand, when i am with my fWH, that gets replaced by a real person, a person whom i love and who is working hard at R. R becomes human, i can see it and relate to it and believe in it, instead of feeling like these painful uncontrollable ghosts are swirling around me and carrying me away into memories of the A... which was happening while i was alone, just like this.
> 
> oh my, i am SO tired of going there
> 
> today i do believe that my fWH is committed to doing everything he can on his end, so i need to, i _want_ to reclaim my alone time away from A. starting right now
> 
> reminds me of things that others of you have written about wanting and choosing happiness.


In his book 'Awaken the Giant Within', Tony Robbins said that changing a habit does not take the 21 days that we are told or taught. Change happens the moment you decide to change.

I read that book in 1997. It takes a little time for sh-t to sink in for me sometimes


----------



## russell28

SomedayDig said:


> Brother, you are a better man than I. If I had been in your shoes that coffee shop would've looked like a 1950's Wild West set after a shootout.
> 
> I hate that you or anyone of us has to go through the horrific injustice of catching our spouse in an affair.
> 
> 
> 
> In his book 'Awaken the Giant Within', Tony Robbins said that changing a habit does not take the 21 days that we are told or taught. Change happens the moment you decide to change.
> 
> I read that book in 1997. It takes a little time for sh-t to sink in for me sometimes


The only thing that saved him from going through the plate glass window was that I went into a state of shock... My brain shut down. I'll live with that for the rest of my life that I didn't make him bleed that day. Taking that one too my grave.


----------



## SomedayDig

Better that you didn't Russell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

It's lucky I'm nosy!

I was doing a little digging about the past of this house we have been looking at. It used to be a care home and there is quite a bit of information about it on the internet.

I came across a planning application from last year which referenced the removal of a rear extension (which is a fairly substantial part of the ground floor and contains two of the reception rooms and the downstairs WC) along with its change of use to a single residential dwelling.

Hmm, I thought. I popped down in the car to have a little look. The extension is still there.

So I rang the council. They confirmed that the extension HAS to be removed in order to comply with the planning permission granted - something about making sure there is enough amenity space in the back garden for it to be classed as a private dwelling.

I told them that it was currently being sold with the extension in place, as a private dwelling, with no mention of the planning requirement. They said they would get in touch with the estate agent.

I asked what would have happened if we had bought it as is without knowing about the planning permission requirements. They said we would have had to demolish the extension at our own expense!!

So that's that. Unless the owners demolish the extension themselves we won't be buying it. I haven't told BigMac yet as he is busy but I'll tell him tonight. I expect he will agree with me.

Meh.


----------



## Robsia

Was triggering today. Went around this evening to feed his cat.

But it was when I used to go round to feed his cat when he was away working that I used to poke around the house for evidence that he was cheating.

And it was when I went round to feed his cat that I finally found it.

So, yes, today I was poking around a little. Makes no sense to blindly trust at this stage. Didn't find anything, but I was still shaking while doing it. My paranoia is telling me he just got better at hiding it.

Anyway, so after tea I phoned him and talked to him. Better that than me sitting alone and getting worse all by myself.

Anyway, I told him about the house situation. He still thinks we should go and see it. Whilst we'll lose a couple of rooms, we'll gain a garden, and the house is pretty big even without those rooms. Also he thinks they might be so desperate to get rid that they'll drop the price given the planning conditions which have been imposed. And if they drop the price we can afford to have the demolition done.

Never hurts to ask, although I had plans for those rooms


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## calvin

Sorry your triggering Rosbia,hang in there,it sucks but gets better.
I'm amazed when I go for 3-4 days without triggering.
Hang in there,it will get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

calvin said:


> Sorry your triggering Rosbia,hang in there,it sucks but gets better.
> I'm amazed when I go for 3-4 days without triggering.
> Hang in there,it will get better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It gets better. Much better.

I still trigger sometimes, but weeks, or months, apart.

Actually I trigger more since I came onto TAM, because it focusses my mind on things I would prefer not to think about. But I also deal much better with the triggers in general.

Time heals.


----------



## calvin

One thing I stumbled on that works for me is limiting myself to two questions about what happend everyother day.
I noticed if I wait, CSS sometimes answers those questions by her actions,sometimes the question I had is'nt important anymore.
This gives me answers and comfort.I have very few new questions,mostly rare repeat questions that gauge what I think CSS feels for me.
For me this helps,I don't trigger out and CSS is'nt racked with so much guilt she hates herself.
I can read books,read Tams,go to counselor after counselor but the coping skills for the most part are
things you just stumble and find what works for you.
Having a spouse that tries to move Heaven and Earth to make things right again is more than a crutch,its a lifeline to my sanity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

warlock07 said:


> EI, Hope B1 and you are feeling better today..


Thank you, Warlock...... We're here.  B1 has been looking forward to the day that he could say "One year ago today, and every day, thereafter, she (that would be me ) was mine!" Sounds so simple, something that should have been a given in a relationship spanning over 3 decades. Being "his" is something I will never take for granted, again. I don't think either of us will be taking the other for granted again. 

I've learned a lot about myself in the last year. Some of it was very painful to acknowledge. But, I've also learned some good things about myself, too. I'm actually a lot stronger than I thought I was...... Actually, B1 is, too! 

So many of you have followed our story since my first thread last June, followed by B1's a day or two later, then this one about 2 months after that. Others started following it somewhere along the way. This thread become a sanctuary for us to share, openly and honestly, every single stage of our journey. I honestly don't believe that we would have made it this far without it. 

I want to thank each and every one of you, BS's and WS's, who have been a part of our safe sanctuary. I'm grateful for the BS's on this thread who were kind enough to help me understand the enormity of the devastation they felt in the aftermath of their spouse's betrayal. Thank you for choosing to rise above your pain and placing a higher value on advising me, inspiring me and encouraging me, rather than using my presence here as an "opportunity" to project the anger and pain caused by your own WS onto me. You'll never know how much you're kindness meant to me. I don't say that lightly. You lifted me out of some very dark and lonely places more times than I can count.

Thank you to the WS's on this thread who have patiently and tirelessly listened to me cry and understood, as only another WS could, my feelings of hurt, shame, guilt, confusion, sadness, self-loathing and exhaustion, yet never ceased to encourage me, even in the face of their own uncertain marriages. I've come to think of so many of you as dear friends who I would trust with my life....... just not with my husband!   Okay, that was a little Wayward humor...... 'Cuz, sometimes, it's just as important to laugh as it is to cry! 

Reconcilers, old and new, I love you all!

~EI


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Well, I am curious...do you think I am trying to encourage one path or the other? I honestly am not.
> 
> But Matt has to cope with something. He gets to choose whether it's reconciliation, divorce or some sort of limbo for a while, but he can't choose nothing.


Wazza, sometimes "nothing" is exactly what you should do. MM has told Matt repeatedly how she feels and has done her best to be pro-active, perhaps now is the time for both of them to let it be and concentrate on the baby?


----------



## StarGazer101

:smthumbup: Best wishes on passing that one year mark EI and B1.

You both have become inspirational figures and people I care deeply about from reading this thread and how much you've shared. It has helped me a great deal to make sense my own experiences, and not to give up when times are tough. I honestly believe that it changed the path of my life. Thank you and I wish you all the joy that you would wish yourselves on what I hope is a very happy day for you both.


----------



## margrace

EI said:


> This thread become a sanctuary for us to share, openly and honestly, every single stage of our journey. I honestly don't believe that we would have made it this far without it...I want to thank each and every one of you, BS's and WS's, who have been a part of our safe sanctuary.
> 
> Reconcilers, old and new, I love you all!
> 
> ~EI


thanks again to you and B1 for the thread, and for opening your journey and your sanctuary to all of us. what a gift you have given


----------



## bfree

EI,

God bless you and B1. You are loved.


----------



## Harken Banks

hopefulgirl said:


> I found an article about bad marriage counseling that mentioned "going alone to individual counseling for marriage problems increases the chance of divorce, research shows. That's because the client is telling only one side of the story to an empathetic therapist, so it becomes a gripe session about how unhappy the person is in the relationship and the absent partner starts to look even more like a monster, exacerbating the couple's polarization."


This is interesting and pretty much common sense. The same thing will happen with friends and confidants. It depends on the person and what they are seeking in the process.


----------



## calvin

Our first counselor actually told us if the wife cheats its the husbands fault no matter what.
My wife was still knee deep in her EA.
She came to her senses and told our then MC he was an idiot for believing that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

The individual counseling is a one sided thing. I also felt my counselor was talking me into leaving. It's bullcrap but I was in the middle of my EA and didn't say a word about it. He did IC with Calvin and me and then we did MC. This so called counselor actually told both of us to not tell eachother anything about our sessions. In MC he declared our marriage was hopeless. Thank God we found a psycholigist who said there are no secrets with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> The individual counseling is a one sided thing. I also felt my counselor was talking me into leaving. It's bullcrap but I was in the middle of my EA and didn't say a word about it. He did IC with Calvin and me and then we did MC. This so called counselor actually told bith of us to not tell eachother anything about our sessions. In MC he declared our marriage was hopeless. Thank God we found a psycholigist who said there are no secrets with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That idiot stood up,waved his arms and pronounced our marriage dead.
Then later on tried to get me in for more of his "IC".
Wanted me to buy his book,go to Israel with him and a group of men.
Nuts.
The next two counselors were woman and they did a really decent job.
I don't think I trust men anymore,they just want me for my cash,looks and whatever good time I can provide for them.
I feel so used.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I do want CSS to use me tonight though,if she buys me dinner.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

LOL. I love your humor honey
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I look forward to the day I get a paycheck and say "I got this honey"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Well, WS and I had been doing well, so I read him the quote tonight about going alone to IC for marriage problems increasing the chance for divorce. I suggested that it might be better for our marriage if the focus of his sessions was not on his problems with me but on his anxiety disorder, which is what he started seeing her for in the first place and what she specializes in anyway.

He claims that I have not been the focus of his sessions, that his feelings and reactions have been the focus of his sesssions. I wasn't going to ask for more detail or tell him that I have my doubts, but I couldn't help (in my triggery, hypervigilant state) but be suspicious that a large percentage of the "feelings and reactions" he's been discussing since D-Day could revolve around me. 

I suppose it's possible that it's only 5 or 10% of his sessions, but I still don't like the fact that he's getting garbage from this counselor such as what he told me a few weeks ago: "she's right - I'm enabling you to control me by not setting personal boundaries." This putting up MORE boundaries idea is SO counterproductive to my healing from the infidelity!

He did share some of the content from his last session, which was a step in the right direction - the secrecy was eating me up. And he did say this counselor has been encouraging him to go into MC, so I'll give her credit for that.

We really need MC but I can't push it. He thought it was "pushy" of me to ask him to keep the talk about our marriage to a minimum, even though he claims it isn't a focus of his sessions, and even though I said I was doing it out of a concern for saving our marriage. 

I know his anxiety disorder is bad, and I know it gets in the way of his being able to help me. But sometimes I wish he was less of a mess, and able to help me more. I've planted the seed for MC, and I'm hoping he might come around one of these days.


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## jupiter13

So do you tell the counselor what it is you are wanting from IC? My husband starts IC on the tenth he asked me what do you do if you don't like them? Since he has been 12 weeks with one that didn't do anything to help him except talk about his life then in the end told us WH problem was his childhood and his mother I just died. We already knew that. I told him he is to tell the counselor that his intentions are to stay married, that he wants help to understand and wrok on anger issues the physical violence issues, and generally his thinking without talking or listening jumping to conclutions and maybe just maybe some drug issues. Why does he reach for drugs when he is so stressed out.... If the couselor doesn't respect these guidelines than request another one that will. Does that sound about right?


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## margrace

hopefulgirl said:


> Well, WS and I had been doing well, so I read him the quote tonight about going alone to IC for marriage problems increasing the chance for divorce. I suggested that it might be better for our marriage if the focus of his sessions was not on his problems with me but on his anxiety disorder, which is what he started seeing her for in the first place and what she specializes in anyway.
> 
> He claims that I have not been the focus of his sessions, that his feelings and reactions have been the focus of his sesssions. I wasn't going to ask for more detail or tell him that I have my doubts, but I couldn't help (in my triggery, hypervigilant state) but be suspicious that a large percentage of the "feelings and reactions" he's been discussing since D-Day could revolve around me.
> 
> I suppose it's possible that it's only 5 or 10% of his sessions, but I still don't like the fact that he's getting garbage from this counselor such as what he told me a few weeks ago: "she's right - I'm enabling you to control me by not setting personal boundaries." This putting up MORE boundaries idea is SO counterproductive to my healing from the infidelity!
> 
> He did share some of the content from his last session, which was a step in the right direction - the secrecy was eating me up. And he did say this counselor has been encouraging him to go into MC, so I'll give her credit for that.
> 
> We really need MC but I can't push it. He thought it was "pushy" of me to ask him to keep the talk about our marriage to a minimum, even though he claims it isn't a focus of his sessions, and even though I said I was doing it out of a concern for saving our marriage.
> 
> I know his anxiety disorder is bad, and I know it gets in the way of his being able to help me. But sometimes I wish he was less of a mess, and able to help me more. I've planted the seed for MC, and I'm hoping he might come around one of these days.


sounds like you are doing everything that you possibly can, hg! and i'm with you, the one thing that i feel good about in all this is that his IC is encouraging MC. 

it seems as though WH is pretty invested in his work with IC, so it's not clear to me why he would resist her suggestion in this regard. obviously there is something about an MC experience that seems _too_ challenging to him, or too negative, or too threatening, or too _something_....


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



margrace said:


> sounds like you are doing everything that you possibly can, hg! and i'm with you, the one thing that i feel good about in all this is that his IC is encouraging MC.
> 
> it seems as though WH is pretty invested in his work with IC, so it's not clear to me why he would resist her suggestion in this regard. obviously there is something about an MC experience that seems _too_ challenging to him, or too negative, or too threatening, or too _something_....


I'm getting the feeling that he is using his IC to avoid dealing with the marital issues and his contributions to them.


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## margrace

jupiter13 said:


> So do you tell the counselor what it is you are wanting from IC? My husband starts IC on the tenth he asked me what do you do if you don't like them? Since he has been 12 weeks with one that didn't do anything to help him except talk about his life then in the end told us WH problem was his childhood and his mother I just died. We already knew that. I told him he is to tell the counselor that his intentions are to stay married, that he wants help to understand and wrok on anger issues the physical violence issues, and generally his thinking without talking or listening jumping to conclutions and maybe just maybe some drug issues. Why does he reach for drugs when he is so stressed out.... If the couselor doesn't respect these guidelines than request another one that will. Does that sound about right?


i think your idea about WH speaking openly with a potential new IC about what he is looking for is great. A good IC will want to do this too, and will want to refer him on to someone else if he/she is not a good fit for those goals.

some of the issues that you are mentioning are ones that lots of ICs may have had a decent amount of experience with, but drugs/addiction are different. like infidelity, drugs present a situation where a well-intentioned IC without the right background can be really non-helpful and can even set you back.

i don't know the extent to which drug use is part of your WH's picture, but maybe do some investigating and find out whether a potential IC has substance abuse training/experience.

i know you know this, but you might remind WH: even when WH tells the IC what his goals are, they will need to spend some amount of time exploring who he is and how he got here -- that's part of how they eventually know how to help him.

but the whole thing doesn't have to be just exploring and exploring! he should definitely let them know that he is looking for an IC who can ALSO focus on problems that are _currently, urgently _harming him and his marriage_._ so, he could advise them that he's willing to explore background, but he also needs an IC who is able to work with him on some problem-solving and problem-management techniques for *right now*.


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## margrace

bfree said:


> I'm getting the feeling that he is using his IC to avoid dealing with the marital issues and his contributions to them.


:iagree:


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## hopefulgirl

margrace said:


> sounds like you are doing everything that you possibly can, hg! and i'm with you, the one thing that i feel good about in all this is that his IC is encouraging MC.
> 
> it seems as though WH is pretty invested in his work with IC, so it's not clear to me why he would resist her suggestion in this regard. obviously there is something about an MC experience that seems _too_ challenging to him, or too negative, or too threatening, or too _something_....


Thanks, margrace. I'm trying to be patient!!

I've brought up MC twice in the last couple weeks. The first time he said no and specifically referred to the infamous final session with the couples counselor who's in the same practice with his IC - that's the session that he views as my "betrayal" of him (something he's STILL angry about) and that I view as a key incident that set him on the path to his affair because it was less than a month later that he was on a business trip and decided it was OK to betray ME by texting 2 different women at midnight.

He felt that the counselor wasn't seeing his multiple hobbies as all that bad, but says I kept adding info that made him "look like a hoarder," and he said he would "never" put himself in a situation where I could do that to him again. He said he doesn't "trust" me. Look who doesn't trust who!  

I wasn't saying the hobbies in and of themselves were bad. But you can have too much of a good thing. And you can spend too much money and devote too much time and energy on these things to the point where they take up a lot of space and a lot of your time and keep you from having any savings and instead have credit card debt. (He has no savings; I came into the marriage with a lot, spent a lot of it on him, but have stopped doing that.)

But if you're almost like an addict (spendaholic?) and you're not ready to hear this, you're going to be furious, and that was his reaction. All he heard was the counselor saying that hobbies were good for him to have, and I had the nerve to count the boxes in the stacks for one of his hobbies and tell the counselor, and it made him "look" bad.

Yes, I was hoping to use that counseling session as a safe, neutral place to bring up this marital problem because it was always so hard to get anywhere with him when I tried to address it. But it blew up in my face, big time - as I said, I believe it may have started him on the path to his affair. I "betrayed" HIM so....

I've been quiet about his spending lately, in hopes that it might soften him about his "trust" issue. Because of his past credit problems, his credit limits are low, and he's almost up to his limits, so I'm just sitting back and watching while he maxes out. I've been talking to him about his latest hobby (yes, he added a new one, and of course, it's expensive), asking him questions about it, and I agreed not to do errands on a day he was expecting a big package to arrive when I was at home, just in case a signature was required. Give a little to get a little - the second time we talked about it, he said he'd "think" about MC.


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## hopefulgirl

bfree said:


> I'm getting the feeling that he is using his IC to avoid dealing with the marital issues and his contributions to them.


:iagree:

Avoidance is one of the hallmarks of his anxiety disorder. Hobbies, an affair, even IC itself - he'll use all kinds of things. Coping and facing things directly are not things he does well.

The good signs in recent days are how he's taken care of me (I've been really sick) and how he's actually done some work on the house (he's been somewhat depressed along with the anxiety disorder, and didn't really care much about the house for the last year or so). He's been oddly affectionate too. I say odd because he'd been so mean and talking about divorce earlier this month, and now he's almost clingy with his hugs. He even said he needed me the other day.

It's a roller coaster, that's for sure.


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## SomedayDig

HG...I admire you for your commitment to helping your spouse through his issues/addiction.

I wonder, though where your breaking point is. You shoulder so much of the weight. You get torn down when he is the one who betrayed. 

As for using a counseling session as a safe/neutral place - that is exactly what it's for!! Did he blow up at the session in front of the counselor or did he do that later out of the office?

Give a lot to get a smidgen it seems to me, HG.


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## hopefulgirl

SomedayDig said:


> HG...I admire you for your commitment to helping your spouse through his issues/addiction.
> 
> I wonder, though where your breaking point is. You shoulder so much of the weight. You get torn down when he is the one who betrayed.
> 
> As for using a counseling session as a safe/neutral place - that is exactly what it's for!! Did he blow up at the session in front of the counselor or did he do that later out of the office?
> 
> Give a lot to get a smidgen it seems to me, HG.


Thanks for your support, Dig. 

He blew up in the session. He didn't yell so loud as to scare the counselor, but he had that barely controlled rage look that made the counselor concerned for my safety: he asked me if I was concerned that my husband might hurt me when we got home.

I told him I wasn't at all concerned, that he'd never raised a hand to me. 

I do wonder sometimes how long I can go on without much help from him. Hugs and affection are great, but it's still rugsweeping - my healing isn't happening. A few times I've been able to ask questions without his getting defensive, but most of the time his guilt gets in the way - he just can't handle looking back, and I still have the A stuff going through my head, which I know is normal.


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## SomedayDig

hopefulgirl said:


> Hugs and affection are great, but it's still rugsweeping - my healing isn't happening.


This is key. YOU know what's really going on.

It will be sad when you see it. It will come to that, you know. The anxiety that he lives with and how he chooses to deal with that are his. You can't exorcise those ghosts. That is his stuff. Care for him, be there for him - YES. However, this thing of you constantly giving and giving will tire you and as I said, you will one day _really_ see it. You might see it now. But there will come a time when you REALLY do.

We'll be right here.


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## Robsia

BSs - do you ever feel weak for choosing to R?

Sometimes the depth of my feelings for BigMac scare me. Why do I love him, when I should despise him? Why do I desperately want, almost need to be with him, when I should hate the sight of him?

Is it simply that law of attraction - that we want what we can't have. Being cheated on is such a total and utter rejection, am I just clinging to the hope that he might actually want me again?

Sometimes I feel a weak fool for trying to make it work. And looking at houses? I can hardly believe I'm considering throwing my lot in with this man again after what he has done to me?

If I talk to him about me feeling this way, instead of reassuring me, he backs off too. He thinks that he should let me go if that's what I want. But I don't know what I want. I truly want it to work. I want to have a good, happy marriage with the minimum of conflict. And I want it to be with him.

But I'm just so scared of it all going wrong again.


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## margrace

SomedayDig said:


> This is key. YOU know what's really going on.
> 
> It will be sad when you see it. It will come to that, you know. The anxiety that he lives with and how he chooses to deal with that are his. You can't exorcise those ghosts. That is his stuff. Care for him, be there for him - YES. However, this thing of you constantly giving and giving will tire you and as I said, you will one day _really_ see it. You might see it now. But there will come a time when you REALLY do.
> 
> We'll be right here.


:iagree:


seems like your patient, giving approach has helped to built the love bank account back up, to use dr-harley-speak... that's what the affectionate behavior suggests to me. and that's a good foundation for the challenging work ahead. 

at the same time, i agree that the work HAS to turn in the direction of *your healing* -- you can't be the one doing all the giving and foundation-building.

does he give any hints that he is realizing this as well? with my fWH, i saw this as he began to say things to me like "i think i'm finally getting my head out of my *ss." 

i believe that that particular comment came around thanksgiving 2012, and in mid-december, on my birthday, i asked him to try MC with me again. he had quit the first time around, too. he said yes.

so i remember that it was a gradual process. do you see any movement like this?


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## russell28

Robsia said:


> BSs - do you ever feel weak for choosing to R?
> 
> Sometimes the depth of my feelings for BigMac scare me. Why do I love him, when I should despise him? Why do I desperately want, almost need to be with him, when I should hate the sight of him?
> 
> Is it simply that law of attraction - that we want what we can't have. Being cheated on is such a total and utter rejection, am I just clinging to the hope that he might actually want me again?
> 
> Sometimes I feel a weak fool for trying to make it work. And looking at houses? I can hardly believe I'm considering throwing my lot in with this man again after what he has done to me?
> 
> If I talk to him about me feeling this way, instead of reassuring me, he backs off too. He thinks that he should let me go if that's what I want. But I don't know what I want. I truly want it to work. I want to have a good, happy marriage with the minimum of conflict. And I want it to be with him.
> 
> But I'm just so scared of it all going wrong again.


Yes... every day. I have to remind myself that it's the more difficult path. You didn't choose for him to cheat, so you've been working to stay in love with him in your mind. You can't just flip a switch one day and say "I no longer love this person", even when they do horrible things to hurt you. Love is blind, deaf and dumb...


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## margrace

Robsia said:


> BSs - do you ever feel weak for choosing to R?
> 
> Sometimes the depth of my feelings for BigMac scare me. Why do I love him, when I should despise him? Why do I desperately want, almost need to be with him, when I should hate the sight of him?
> 
> Is it simply that law of attraction - that we want what we can't have. Being cheated on is such a total and utter rejection, am I just clinging to the hope that he might actually want me again?
> 
> Sometimes I feel a weak fool for trying to make it work. And looking at houses? I can hardly believe I'm considering throwing my lot in with this man again after what he has done to me?
> 
> If I talk to him about me feeling this way, instead of reassuring me, he backs off too. He thinks that he should let me go if that's what I want. But I don't know what I want. I truly want it to work. I want to have a good, happy marriage with the minimum of conflict. And I want it to be with him.
> 
> But I'm just so scared of it all going wrong again.


oh yes, i have felt all of these things at different times. some of them i still feel, others less and less.

i'm still scared of it all going wrong again, too. this whole thing was so nightmarish and surreal, and i was so undone and _flattened _by my shock and pain, that i get a terrified shiver just thinking about it.

i know that a lot of my fear-motivated behavior and triggering is about trying to control the possibility of this happening again, and about keeping my guard up so that it doesn't.

what i have been thinking about recently with the help of this thread is:

* do i believe that people (apart from sociopaths, characteriologically-disordered people, etc) can fall down and then get back up, and learn from their mistakes, and be wiser and stronger going forward? yes i do, and i count myself among those people.

* is there still real, deep love in the relationship? if there is, i think it's worth fighting for. like you, i love my fWH, i believe in what's good in him, and i believe in the value of a loving commitment that weathers storms. (btw, i also know from previous relationships what it feels like to fall _out _of love with someone... if i did not love fWH, i would feel that the best and most humane decision would be to rip off the band-aid now and move on.)

* do i believe that fWH is, today, working on R with love, accountability, remorsefulness, and honesty? in my sanest moments, yes -- although it's still easy for fears to distract me from that belief. i know that time will help me with this one.

* if he can't sustain this work, if he throws away his integrity again... well, i don't have a crystal ball and i _can't_ control that possibility 100%, no matter what i do or how much i obsess about it. it's a gamble, like we always gamble a little when we open our hearts. no way around that one except to choose not to open it. is that weak? h*ll no, for me personally, it is one of the hardest things i've ever done.

* what i do know is that, as much as it WILL hurt me and it WILL be disappointing if this doesn't work out, *it will never kill me again like it did before*. i feel that in my bones! 

it will take me about 5 minutes to say goodbye and let me help you pack. 

and then about 5 more minutes to call up some of the friends who have said to me this year, _i wish you would let me be there for you!_ 

and then about 5 more minutes to be back in the world, taking salsa lessons, adopting a little rescue dog, embracing my career, and being open to meeting the man of integrity that i know is out there for me. i know that i can be a better partner than ever before 

i would like to be that partner to my H, and i believe that he is rising up to be a wonderful, trustworthy man and husband. we deserve the chance to build on the love that is between us and have the marriage that we always wanted


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## mintypeas

Robsia- i totally agree with you with all these feelings but especially with the feeling weak. i worry that my wh will see me as weak for taking him back i struggle with this feeling daily.

i do have another question for everyone- after more talking we have realised that he saw me as a wife nothing else the woman who spent 2 years of hell having another child at the age of 42 and who got married again after her first husband had 5 pas. the woman who looks after 3 children runs the house sorts out the bills deals with the dramas that teenagers have daily and also working about 4 nights out of 7. i have always seen my husband as my husband,my best friend,my confidante and most importantly my lover but before he went on a dating site and had a 10 month ea i was "just" his wife. has anyone else experienced this? sorry if this makes no sense i am rambling again!! xxx


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## bfree

mintypeas said:


> Robsia- i totally agree with you with all these feelings but especially with the feeling weak. i worry that my wh will see me as weak for taking him back i struggle with this feeling daily.
> 
> i do have another question for everyone- after more talking we have realised that he saw me as a wife nothing else the woman who spent 2 years of hell having another child at the age of 42 and who got married again after her first husband had 5 pas. the woman who looks after 3 children runs the house sorts out the bills deals with the dramas that teenagers have daily and also working about 4 nights out of 7. i have always seen my husband as my husband,my best friend,my confidante and most importantly my lover but before he went on a dating site and had a 10 month ea i was "just" his wife. has anyone else experienced this? sorry if this makes no sense i am rambling again!! xxx


This is interesting. I've seen and heard many people struggle with their own roles in life. A woman has trouble distinguishing her role as mother and lover. A man has difficulty separating himself from his workday role so he can be a good husband and father. But your husband saw you as mother to the children and not as a woman, lover or companion? That's some serious compartmentalization. Does he have any insight as to why that might be?


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## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> BSs - do you ever feel weak for choosing to R?
> 
> Sometimes the depth of my feelings for BigMac scare me. Why do I love him, when I should despise him? Why do I desperately want, almost need to be with him, when I should hate the sight of him?
> 
> Is it simply that law of attraction - that we want what we can't have. Being cheated on is such a total and utter rejection, am I just clinging to the hope that he might actually want me again?
> 
> Sometimes I feel a weak fool for trying to make it work. And looking at houses? I can hardly believe I'm considering throwing my lot in with this man again after what he has done to me?
> 
> If I talk to him about me feeling this way, instead of reassuring me, he backs off too. He thinks that he should let me go if that's what I want. But I don't know what I want. I truly want it to work. I want to have a good, happy marriage with the minimum of conflict. And I want it to be with him.
> 
> But I'm just so scared of it all going wrong again.


Has Mac given you a timeline with details yet?

If he's pulling away AND still holding back, I'm afraid this is not a good sign for you both. It's sounding like it's still about him and not heavy lifting on his part yet.


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## mintypeas

hi bfree i always love your replies as they make me really think about things. we went through 2 years of hell and a loss to get our daughter so the intimate side of our relationship went downhill as my pregnancy was high risk. she is 2 now and is a terrible sleeper and sleeps in our room so we always say she is the best contraceptive!! lol so we think through all that and other factors he stopped seeing me as a sexual being he has never been comftable talking about sex but i have and he would go all coy if i tried to talk about it. i really believe he thought because he saw me as a wife that was enough but it wasn't. things are very different now but he is not the man i married that one is dead to me. xxxx


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## Acabado

margrace, your list, yout entire thread. Pricelesss.
That's what I did. I was back and ford believing different things every day, every hour, being driven by the rollercoaster. I got sick of it.
I had to "record" the truth. Analize it. Agreed with it, entirely.
Once i determined the truth I decided and commited to act based on that truth. I rejected any actions and thought which was against that truth and commitment.


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## margrace

mintypeas said:


> Robsia- i totally agree with you with all these feelings but especially with the feeling weak. i worry that my wh will see me as weak for taking him back i struggle with this feeling daily.
> 
> i do have another question for everyone- after more talking we have realised that he saw me as a wife nothing else the woman who spent 2 years of hell having another child at the age of 42 and who got married again after her first husband had 5 pas. the woman who looks after 3 children runs the house sorts out the bills deals with the dramas that teenagers have daily and also working about 4 nights out of 7. i have always seen my husband as my husband,my best friend,my confidante and most importantly my lover but before he went on a dating site and had a 10 month ea i was "just" his wife. has anyone else experienced this? sorry if this makes no sense i am rambling again!! xxx


hi minty:

yes, we had some similar issues. right after the As, i felt that those housewifey parts of me were all that he valued. after all, he had never wanted to give up his home with me -- but when there were problems in the intimate/romantic parts of our relationship, he had not addressed those with me at all (and i was not addressing them with him, either). he just took that part of himself elsewhere  

i have felt many things about this, like hurt and resentful that he continued to live in the home that i made while he cheated. i am happy to contribute to the making of our home -- i _enjoy_ that -- but i don't want to be his mom. i don't want the homemaking responsibilities to fall ALL on me (as they did) and i don't want that to be the main way that he sees me. i want to be with a man who can appreciate and share these things AND be_ in love _with me.

we talk a lot about this. fWH has been really good about explaining that this IS how he feels, that he always wanted me in his life as a wife and a lover and a friend -- but when a distance grew between us, he didn't have the awareness or the tools or the confidence to confront it. i understand that because i didn't either. (this does NOT for one minute justify his cheating as a response to the situation.)

it sounds like your H realizes that he had separated out the romantic/lover you from the mother/homemaker you, and was only relating to you as the second of those. has he put them all back together yet as *one minty*? what does he say about that? and when he speaks about it, what does your gut tell you?


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## margrace

Acabado said:


> margrace, your list, yout entire thread. Pricelesss.
> That's what I did. I was back and ford believing different things every day, every hour, being driven by the rollercoaster. I got sick of it.
> I had to "record" the truth. Analize it. Agreed with it, entirely.
> Once i determined the truth I decided and commited to act based on that truth. I rejected any actions and thought which was against that truth and commitment.


thank you -- and i have learned so much from you, acabado! anyone who has followed this thread for a while will see that your insights (along with those of many others) are reflected in just about everything i have to say....


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## Robsia

TCSRedhead said:


> Has Mac given you a timeline with details yet?
> 
> If he's pulling away AND still holding back, I'm afraid this is not a good sign for you both. It's sounding like it's still about him and not heavy lifting on his part yet.


I haven't asked for a written timeline. I actually don't want one. I have found out the details I need to know and honestly, he has changed since D-day 2. He is forthcoming, answers questions - today's insecurities were more about me than him.

He was pulling back before D-day 2, mainly I think because he felt he didn't have the right to try to hang on to me after what he did.

I went around this evening for my hug-fix. We talked a bit and I explained that when I pull back it's because I'm scared and insecure, not because I don't want things to work out between us. I told him that it's THEN that I need him to be my rock, to come towards me, not back away himself.

He was fine, he hugged me, said he would try his best, told me he loved me, told me he wanted it to work out too, told me he never wanted to let me down again.

He's doing okay - it's me!


----------



## SomedayDig

Some people can deal with the pain of the betrayal.

Some people cannot deal with the pain of the betrayal.



Neither one is stronger or weaker than the other. Period.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



mintypeas said:


> hi bfree i always love your replies as they make me really think about things. we went through 2 years of hell and a loss to get our daughter so the intimate side of our relationship went downhill as my pregnancy was high risk. she is 2 now and is a terrible sleeper and sleeps in our room so we always say she is the best contraceptive!! lol so we think through all that and other factors he stopped seeing me as a sexual being he has never been comftable talking about sex but i have and he would go all coy if i tried to talk about it. i really believe he thought because he saw me as a wife that was enough but it wasn't. things are very different now but he is not the man i married that one is dead to me. xxxx


Is he getting better with seeing you in the role of lover? I can understand how the time situation can curtail sexual frequency and opportunity. Maybe you guys should consider some role playing. Go to a bar pretend you don't know each other and let him try to pick you up. Or get a babysitter and go to a hotel room for the express purpose of sex. You can even add a little light BDSM into the mix. It's going to be next to impossible for him to not see you as a sexual being if you are walking around in a leather g-string carrying a set of handcuffs and a whip. Basically focus completely on the animalistic act of sex so that he can alter and enhance his perception of who you are.


----------



## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> Basically focus completely on the animalistic act of sex so that he can alter and enhance his perception of who you are.


I admit...THIS helped both Regret and me out a ton. And man what a rush!!

I might be talking out of turn, but I'm sure she would be okay with it.

See, last summer when we would do our deck talks one of the things she would do is downplay the sexuality of her affair. Hey, I'm 45...I get it...it was PURELY sexual for her because they didn't have a romance or anything. It was nothing BUT a sexual affair. I said to her one night, "Now stop it. Stop bullsh-tting me with this stuff. Quit trying to make it out like you were a nice-girl in the affair."

I stumped her. I looked at her and said, "THIS is what I have been searching for in you for years and you f'ng gave it to HIM! How fair is that?!"

Another stumper.

I told her how much I love her and how much I want our marriage to survive and that making love is a great satisfaction to me. However! There are times when I just want to rip stuff off and bang.

Why should I be denied that?!

Things have been quite different since.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> I admit...THIS helped both Regret and me out a ton. And man what a rush!!
> 
> I might be talking out of turn, but I'm sure she would be okay with it.
> 
> See, last summer when we would do our deck talks one of the things she would do is downplay the sexuality of her affair. Hey, I'm 45...I get it...it was PURELY sexual for her because they didn't have a romance or anything. It was nothing BUT a sexual affair. I said to her one night, "Now stop it. Stop bullsh-tting me with this stuff. Quit trying to make it out like you were a nice-girl in the affair."
> 
> I stumped her. I looked at her and said, "THIS is what I have been searching for in you for years and you f'ng gave it to HIM! How fair is that?!"
> 
> Another stumper.
> 
> I told her how much I love her and how much I want our marriage to survive and that making love is a great satisfaction to me. However! There are times when I just want to rip stuff off and bang.
> 
> Why should I be denied that?!
> 
> Things have been quite different since.


Awesome. All's fair in love and war...and sometimes they are the same thing. I used to wrestle with Mrs bfree all the time. Sometimes I'd even let her win. I still sometimes wrestle with her although now I don't let her win, she does that all on her own.


----------



## mintypeas

things have been very different since dday and he definately sees me as a lover now i have a very naughty side to me but he was all very conservative so i made him explore different things and it has surprised him what he is enjoying and i see a man in front of me that has lust in his eyes. we are working so hard to deal with our issues and see what went wrong that he had to look elsewhere and ended up with a 10 month ea. dig the conversation you had with regret is a conversation we had today basically admit you were not the nice guy in this ea and that you were looking elsewhere for a piece of a!se!! and he now realises he had that all the time but he could not see it as he saw me just as a wife. he has read what i have written here and cried like a child when he had seen what we have been through and he still did what he did. xxx


----------



## SomedayDig

mintypeas said:


> things have been very different since dday and he definately sees me as a lover now i have a very naughty side to me but he was all very conservative so i made him explore different things and it has surprised him what he is enjoying and i see a man in front of me that has lust in his eyes. we are working so hard to deal with our issues and see what went wrong that he had to look elsewhere and ended up with a 10 month ea. dig the conversation you had with regret is a conversation we had today basically admit you were not the nice guy in this ea and that you were looking elsewhere for a piece of a!se!! and he now realises he had that all the time but he could not see it as he saw me just as a wife. he has read what i have written here and cried like a child when he had seen what we have been through and he still did what he did. xxx


I wish there was a heart smiley 

Ya know what? Regret said, "You were standing there all along and I just didn't see you for who you were - the man I love. I am a fool."

He sounds like at least the weight of his affair hurts him. Remorse is a good thing.


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> I wish there was a heart smiley
> 
> Ya know what? Regret said, "You were standing there all along and I just didn't see you for who you were - the man I love. I am a fool."
> 
> He sounds like at least the weight of his affair hurts him. Remorse is a good thing.


Its a very good thing,dont see how you could R without it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mintypeas

Ya know what? Regret said, "You were standing there all along and I just didn't see you for who you were - the man I love. I am a fool."

oh my god he basically said exactly the same thing to me not an hour ago!! he is so full of remorse and really sees me for me not just a wife!! we have really thrashed this out last night and today but my mind is clearer and i think he is seeing why he did what he did. and of course we are having lots of fun finding the real us!!!!
xxx


----------



## calvin

Just a quick question for everyone.
How important is sex for you?
I mean sex with someone you love,not just getting off but with the one
you married and made a life long comitment with.
I'm curious and I dont really want to start a thread.
I'd like the views of the folks here.
Thanks guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Sex with Regret is paramount to our reconciliation. The idea of sex with someone else simply isn't appealing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

The sex is a huge part of our R as well. We spent the first year and a half of R doing it *all the time*. It's tapered off, and there've been a couple of bumps in the road since, but nothing to do with the infidelity. Sex is still hugely important to both of us as a method of staying in touch and in tune with each other, and of course to give to each other.


----------



## bfree

I went the meaningless sex route. What I do with my wife is not even in the same universe. Sex without love is akin to masturbation using someone else. It's hollow and cheap. When I make love with my wife it's like I lose myself in her and she in me. And neither of us wants to come back to reality. It's the time when we feel most closely connected.


----------



## mintypeas

calvin it is very important to us now it has been essential in fixing us and through what happened we realised that sex was a problem but through lots of talking and trying different things we now know we like different things!! i look at him with so much lust and those knowing looks we have when the kids are about just tells me that he cant get enough of his wife!!! xxx


----------



## calvin

Thanks guys,with someone else I think it would be meaningless.
With CSS it tells me she loves me,desires me and enjoys it with me,no one else but me.
She used to have hang ups with sex,it kinda told me she didnt really
want me,then why did she marry me?
At least that problem is solved...thank God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I thought that I didn't really like sex...lol now I love it. Just had to let my guard down. I can't believe I used to tell Calvin "all you want from me is sex". Well Duh! Now I see it can be very very very enjoyable. When I had kids, something happened to me. I was mommy. Now I am Calvin's lover and I love it. Ok I'm blushing so I'm gonna shut up now...lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I do wonder tho...if it was my drive...like I heard that women like it more in their 40s
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

I struggle with sex at the moment. I want to do it, and I enjoy it, but I struggle to stop myself imagining him doing those things and saying those things to someone else. I wonder if it was as good with them, or worse, if it was better. I wonder if he is comparing us.

I do try to enjoy it and for the most part I do, but I tend to cry afterwards.

Sex has always been a big part of our relationship and it's always been good. It did drop off when he was having his affairs and, although I was deeply hurt by this, I used to mask it and joke that he must be getting it elsewhere. Not so funny now.

I put on a bit of weight pre- and during the affairs and he has told me, at my own insistence, that both of his APs were small and blonde which then made me feel bad that I had let myself go a bit.

I have lost most of that weight now - ironically I started my diet about a week prior to D-day 1 - which helped me to lose about ten pounds pretty quickly as I was barely eating. I still have six pounds to go till I'm the weight I was when we first met, and ten to go till I'm where I want to be. Twelve, if I push it to the weight I was when we got married.

But I do wonder if he stopped finding me attractive. He says not but when I know that his chosen APs were slimmer, it's hard not to think that.


----------



## hopefulgirl

margrace said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> seems like your patient, giving approach has helped to built the love bank account back up, to use dr-harley-speak... that's what the affectionate behavior suggests to me. and that's a good foundation for the challenging work ahead.
> 
> at the same time, i agree that the work HAS to turn in the direction of *your healing* -- you can't be the one doing all the giving and foundation-building.
> 
> does he give any hints that he is realizing this as well? with my fWH, i saw this as he began to say things to me like "i think i'm finally getting my head out of my *ss."
> 
> i believe that that particular comment came around thanksgiving 2012, and in mid-december, on my birthday, i asked him to try MC with me again. he had quit the first time around, too. he said yes.
> 
> so i remember that it was a gradual process. do you see any movement like this?


Astonishingly enough, TODAY I saw it!!

I took almost 4 agonizing months since D-Day, but here we are:

WS came home early, and it turned out his counseling appointment had been pushed to a little later in the afternoon, and I was home in the afternoon as well. He had some time before he had to leave to go to counseling.

He had been concerned about my coughing in the night, and asked how I was doing; he said I "didn't look well" and didn't say much when he kissed me goodbye and left for work this morning (he left before I got up), and he wondered if it was all because I didn't feel well or if it was partly because we had had a difficult talk last night.

I said it just because I didn't feel well, at that time. As for this afternoon, I admitted I was triggering, so I might look a little anxious. He asked why. I said because he was going to confide in the 3rd woman - that I know of - where a conversation will take place and I'm left out of it on purpose.

He went into an explanation again of that other midnight text (the one not to the OW); similar to his prior explanation, but a little more detailed. There's been nothing to her number before or since that one night, so there's no real threat - his work travel partner told him he'd heard from her that day - she was an obese receptionist who has a live-in boyfriend who had left their place of work but texted his travel partner to say hi and also said to say hi to my husband; my husband has NO interest in her, but he WAS lonely and sick that night and she is very chatty. I still said texting at midnight was inappropriate, and he said it was because he was sick and awake, but it meant nothing.

Anyway, he also asked me if I wanted him to cancel his appointment. I hemmed and hawed - he said it's a simple yes, no question. I said it's not as simple as that - I didn't want him to quit therapy, but... he said "let's go sit down and talk" (we had been standing) and as we headed to the living room he started making a call on his cell.

He cancelled his appointment. I got tears in my eyes, and I thanked him. He asked if those were happy tears, and I said yes. I told him my heart rate had gone up, because I was triggering, and now I was starting to calm down. I said, "you really get it!" He said it was more important for me not to feel upset than for him to go to counseling. He said he thinks he's doing better with respect to his anxiety disorder anyway - maybe he'll take a break from counseling - we need to take care of what's going on with us.

I said I needed a hug - and that's what I got.  Then I made us a snack and we held hands and watched a silly TV show and then we both took a nap (he's still sleeping). Waiting for him to wake up so I can make dinner. It's a good day.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hopeful...your post sounds hopeful . I have told you before I have severe anxiety and it's not easy for Calvin to live with me at times. He tells me I get him worked up when I talk about how worried I am about money or this or that and I tell him I can't not worry. It sucks and I hate that I put him thru all of that. I throw up or sob at any panicky moment. I hyperventilate and get dizzy and he takes good care of me. I'm sorry and I know Calvin can relate to what you go thru with him...sigh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Hopeful...your post sounds hopeful . I have told you before I have severe anxiety and it's not easy for Calvin to live with me at times. He tells me I get him worked up when I talk about how worried I am about money or this or that and I tell him I can't not worry. It sucks and I hate that I put him thru all of that. I throw up or sob at any panicky moment. I hyperventilate and get dizzy and he takes good care of me. I'm sorry and I know Calvin can relate to what you go thru with him...sigh
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no putting up with you,we're all weird in our own way.
I love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Honey that was so sweet. Love that you love the woman I am, even when I get all panicky. Love you so much, all of you and everything about you too . Do I not have the best husband in the world?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

calvin said:


> Just a quick question for everyone.
> How important is sex for you?
> I mean sex with someone you love,not just getting off but with the one
> you married and made a life long comitment with.
> I'm curious and I dont really want to start a thread.
> I'd like the views of the folks here.
> Thanks guys.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The sex aspect of our R is wonderful, but it is also one of the last remaining issues we have. As you guys remember, she said some pretty hateful things to me on D-day. Because of that, sometimes I find my self holding back emotionally during sex. Sweetie sometimes thinks that it is because I still want to sleep with other women. She has moved heaven and earth to prove that she didn't mean what she said, I will give her that, that those words were spoken in anger and pain and guilt, and she meant NONE of them, and , for the most part I believe her. When we just "let go" and I don't think about it the sex is spectacular. And I DO NOT want other women!! But sometimes I remember and it doesn't exactly kill the mood, but it does make me a little guarded.


----------



## margrace

Robsia said:


> I struggle with sex at the moment. I want to do it, and I enjoy it, but I struggle to stop myself imagining him doing those things and saying those things to someone else. I wonder if it was as good with them, or worse, if it was better. I wonder if he is comparing us....
> 
> He says not but when I know that his chosen APs were slimmer, it's hard not to think that.


yes, it _is _hard not think that


----------



## margrace

hopefulgirl said:


> Astonishingly enough, TODAY I saw it!
> 
> ...He cancelled his appointment. I got tears in my eyes, and I thanked him. He asked if those were happy tears, and I said yes. I told him my heart rate had gone up, because I was triggering, and now I was starting to calm down. I said, "you really get it!" He said it was more important for me not to feel upset than for him to go to counseling. He said he thinks he's doing better with respect to his anxiety disorder anyway - maybe he'll take a break from counseling - we need to take care of what's going on with us.
> 
> I said I needed a hug - and that's what I got.  Then I made us a snack and we held hands and watched a silly TV show and then we both took a nap (he's still sleeping). Waiting for him to wake up so I can make dinner. It's a good day.


seems like fWH may be turning a corner, or at least getting much closer to the corner 

everyone here kept telling me, take it a day at a time -- and i am SOOOOO happy to think of you two as having a good day!


----------



## CantSitStill

Not feeling very good about myself. I just don't think I like myself much and all I do is annoy others. I'm glad I stopped talking to all of my friends because I know it takes a lot of patience for Calvin to even put up with me. I am feeling very very low.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Believe it or not, I never used to talk. I mean I was the quietest person in the world. I was that way til I met Calvin. I need to go back to that person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

CSS - you just need to be you.


----------



## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> Believe it or not, I never used to talk. I mean I was the quietest person in the world. I was that way til I met Calvin. I need to go back to that person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you, CSS, are amazing (yes, i _do_ really know ) and you don't need to be quiet or go back to anything. like TCSR said, you just need to be CSS


----------



## calvin

I dont want you to go back to being a wall flower,I do need you to listen to me.
When I get interrupted and cut off it feels like what I have to say is not important to you.
Patience honey,we are doing so much better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mintypeas

css- you have been an immense help to me and fWH so just be you because you are lovely!! xxx


----------



## CantSitStill

I am glad I have been able to help mintypeas, I wish you well and happiness in your marriage. I wish all of you happiness however things turn out. It has been nice to talk here with all of you. I hope people considering any kind of affair will come here and learn how much it devistates their whole family and how it will damage them also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Hey CSS, two thoughts:

1. I never heard of a marriage ending because of over communicating. Have heard it the other way countless times.

2. Don't be so hard on yourself! I'll let you in on a little secret, none of us BS are perfect either. But shhhhh, don't tell anyone else! 

You guys are all good, and Calvin wouldn't trade the new you for the old you plus a million dollars. And you know it!


----------



## CantSitStill

Wish you were right Never but it is too hard for the BS to cope and it is so DAMN UNFAIR to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

CSS -

You are right, it's NOT fair. But LIFE isn't fair either. You made some bad decisions, but you RECOGNIZE them and are holding yourself ACCOUNTABLE. That's why Calvin is still here. 

Don't discount the work that you, AND Calvin have been doing since then. 

I don't think you and Calvin are COPING either. Coping means you accept the problem and work to simply accept it as is. You guys have been working to enhance yourselves and your marriage. That's not coping, that's enhancing. Calvin is strong, and he knows what he wants. The new and stronger YOU! So keep giving it to him.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

CSS -

Here's a little perspective. 

If the POSOM contacted you right now and said the perfect thing, what would your reaction be? 

Think about how much of a change that is. You are experiencing a momentary low in your life, but I am guessing you wouldn't respond to him and would turn to Calvin immediately. Think how different that is, vs where you were 18 months ago. You are stronger. Calvin is stronger. You guys got this!


----------



## CantSitStill

I would not even speak to the ex OM even if Calvin wasn't with me. I did what I did tho and the damage is done so it is what it is. His choice and so be it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I say this with all sincerity to you Calvin & CSS - stop TAM'ing.

Your thread in the Private section has over 10,100 posts in it. You are always on here and I feel that with the affair thrust in your faces on a daily basis that it has prolonged the pain. It's kind of like initially it was good for you guys to post, but it went totally past critical mass and has actually atrophied your reconciliation.

Where's EI & B1? Gone for a bit. Yeah, they might check in and say something every few days or so, but the daily posting has ceased. I did the same thing a few months ago and when I came back, I did so with the intention to help people and not center every day on OUR reconciliation.

You guys have done a good thing by being here at TAM, and more people than have even posted a 'thank you' have been helped cuz they're only guests browsing - but they've read and learned from your experiences.

I say both of you need to fully be off TAM for a minimum of a month. Maybe more. Let your Ups & Downs thread wither on the vine. Take care of each other and don't worry about this place. It'll never go away, unfortunately. There will always be people suffering here. You both need to stop suffering.

Please.

Walk away and concentrate on yourselves without the distraction of this being in your face. I can almost promise you that your love will flourish and Calvin's triggers will ease. You will begin to be yourselves again...not Calvin & CSS on TAM. You both deserve that.

For your marriage. For each other.

Walk away from TAM.


----------



## calvin

I'm having a bad couple days dealing with her A.
There are other issues that I cant share.
CSS said she is going to stay at her sisters,I wont stop her but I did
say she does not have to leave.
Either way,its fine.
I'm lost,my head hurts and I'm afraid I dont really care.
Into the never we go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Amen to that Dig, I can't stand it anymore. Mg brain is tired, my eyes are tired from crying. Want it all to stop . Sick of being reminded every damn day of this. Yes I did a very bad thing. Yes yes ok?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Exactly, CSS. Regret got tired of the daily questions and hammering here. She feels so much better not doing this all the time. Always having the sh-t affair thrown in her face.

When I came back, I decided that I would post on a couple threads and would NOT get too heavily involved. I play in the Social area now. It's more fun and like zero triggers. I check here now and again with hopes to help someone new, or offer what little advice I can to others.

Regret is in a much better place now. She logs in now and then just to lurk. She won't post, though. She's not ready. I'm fine with that.

Yes, the affair can be talked about between you - just take it off TAM. Get rid of the trigger that happens each and every time you guys log in.

This...is an addiction now. You are Calvin & CSS of TAM. Those have become your personalities. You are the WS and Calvin is the BS here. Those are your roles.

Without TAM, you are two people married who are dealing with infidelity, yes...but it became so much easier when Regret and I left here.


----------



## CantSitStill

It's not TAM it is something that he cannot get out of his head. I don't know how much longer of it being brought up I can handle. I feel like I'm losing my mind. The ex OM is the last thing I ever wanna think about. Yes I caused this but I am more than sorry. UGG. It is driving me insane, literally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Btw, I am not leaving, I have no where to go anyway. Everyone is outa town. I was only going to leave because Calvin made me feel I don't belong here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

It's not TAM? Do you honestly think Calvin posting an average of almost 10x/day since 3/2012 in your thread alone is healthy? That doesn't count what ya's post here or anywhere else.

Ya know what? I'm going out on a limb. I'll be ostracized from this place, but I don't care any more...

CSS - you don't deserve to feel like your losing your mind over your affair. You deserve to be healing and working on your marriage.

Calvin - you need to quit the f'ng victim role and stop diddy bopping through your reconciliation. She f'd up. She's been on this website for 16 months saying pretty much all the right stuff. I think you need to give her a break, man.

Quit TAM. For both of your sanity.


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> It's not TAM? Do you honestly think Calvin posting an average of almost 10x/day since 3/2012 in your thread alone is healthy? That doesn't count what ya's post here or anywhere else.
> 
> Ya know what? I'm going out on a limb. I'll be ostracized from this place, but I don't care any more...
> 
> CSS - you don't deserve to feel like your losing your mind over your affair. You deserve to be healing and working on your marriage.
> 
> Calvin - you need to quit the f'ng victim role and stop diddy bopping through your reconciliation. She f'd up. She's been on this website for 16 months saying pretty much all the right stuff. I think you need to give her a break, man.
> 
> Quit TAM. For both of your sanity.


No,there are things I cant f'ing say!!
There is a reason I have to get up at 2:30 am a lot of the time.
Work every single Saturday and go back in Monday morning for a 4am start.
Your righjt Dig....I'm done....I'm the bad guy.
I can only wear my self out so much.
Fvck..........nevermind
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

You're not the bad guy, Calvin. You never were. That's just it.


----------



## SomedayDig

Also, if there are other issues that you can't say, then we're not in any kind of position to offer any sort of help/guidance. Therefore, posting isn't helping. Ya dig?

How do you honestly feel posting here every day? Does it make you feel good or does it make you feel like sh-t? I know I felt like sh-t for a long time because it kept Regret's affair in my face 24/7.

She screwed a guy for 5 f'ng years. The first year IN MY HOUSE!

I had to stop writing about and talking about that for a few months back in the winter time. I had to heal from that. Ya can't heal when you're constantly here posting about it. That's why I left. I couldn't take the sh-t any more.


----------



## CantSitStill

Sorry guys, everything will work out..both of us were in bad moods and taking it out on eachother. Sorry for getting carried away. There's nothing to worry about. We love each other and nobody is leaving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

You are right Dig, we need time away from here. This place can bring us both down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

I agree with Dig that daily CWI TAM posting when things are still raw can aggravate the situation. 

Calvin, CSS, try taking a week and see how it goes. If it goes well, try one more, and then another. When it starts feeling less raw, come back to the R thread and yours. 

You'll be missed but your marriage is more important than we are.


----------



## CantSitStill

I just want you all to know we are doing well. Thank you for your prayers. I am so glad my sister was out of town, I really am because I was ready to pack up and stay with her. That is the old CSS and not a good thing to do. I was going to leave, escape, avoid the conflict. I know better than that. 15 months of counseling and I should nit have even considered it. We had both been in bad moods yesterday. Our emotions got out of hand but we were forced to deal with it and for that I am grateful. No more harboring resentment. We both have decided to take a break from TAM. We are good and will be better and better every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Perhaps you guys need to do some serious MC? Instead of TAM? Pardon me, CSS and Calvin , but you still seem to be having communication issues.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps you guys need to do some serious MC? Instead of TAM? Pardon me, CSS and Calvin , but you still seem to be having communication issues.


I think it's more that they both need to learn better ways to deal with frustration and anger. There is a lot of stress right now and instead of pulling together to work at it as a couple it seems like they each pull back and suffer alone. The need to always be a team because when one wins they both win.


----------



## mintypeas

first of all i would like to say i totally understand why they are doing this and i will miss them as they have helped us as a couple so much in private and we have come so far. we only ever come to this site together and he reads what i read and some things trigger me but we talk straight away about it. also i only post here as when i post anywhere else to help anyone i get jumped on and told my fWH is a liar and is not being truthful with me so i delete my posts and stay where we feel safe with you guys. we had a bad night on friday(long story short our first social event and his ex girlfriend from 13 years ago was there and was determined to annoy me which she did!!) and we had an argument but next day when we spoke about it i was so proud of myself for not throwing his ea in his face that was not even brought up sounds sad but i was so happy that i controlled myself!!! sorry im rambling again!! xxx


----------



## SomedayDig

You're not rambling. You're sharing.

There is a difference


----------



## mintypeas

thank you somedaydig thats very sweet of you. just sometimes i have things in my head that need to come out!! we are 2 months after dday and we are doing well so far and talk all the time about everything and i think we have gone about 2 days without the ea being mentioned. now just have ex girlfriend floating in my head!! but im dealing with it and we are talking about it. thankfully i will never have to see her again!! the problem is that the girl he had the ea with looked like his ex but he didnt see it until friday night. xxx see im going on again!!


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## SomedayDig

You're "going on again" because there's stuff muddled up inside your brain. You're "only" 2 months out from Dday and to be honest, you ain't seen nothing yet! I'm not saying that to scare you either. I'm saying it to prepare you.


----------



## mintypeas

thank you somedaydig you always help!! i have prepared myself the best i can for it to get worse but i know its going to hit me hard and thats why we talk so much now if anything is on our minds we say it straight away we dont let it fester. i tell him to talk to me about anything no matter what and not to feel worried about saying things to me which may upset me. our main problem before this is we didnt talk at all just about the every day things never about us or our life but now we dont shut up!! xxx


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## SomedayDig

Well, you're new and if you haven't read Regret's and my full story, I'll give you the "short" version.

I was a corporate jet pilot. I flew what was basically a limo in the sky for the rich and famous. It's was awesome and I really enjoyed my career.

Regret and I always had a great life, relationship and communication. Until I was in Utah and she was back home pregnant and 10 weeks along. She miscarried. I wasn't here. I was home the next night and stayed home for a week. But then, I had to go back to work and she shut down and shut me out all the while pretending to be the "strong woman" and taking care of our son who was 2 at the time. She's a teacher, so she's got her plate full every single day.

And I noticed that when I'd come home, we just didn't talk. I tried. She placated a bit but never truly opened up. This went on for a few years and we had our daughter. Believe it or not, and this goes to show how into herself she was with this "strong woman" thing...we had a planned C-section cuz our son was a C baby. I was literally stepping on the stairs to my jet for a 4 day flight for a local Senator and I got the phone call from her. She was DRIVING herself to the hospital because her water broke. She told me that I had a job to do and that she'd be okay - she had called my Ma and her parents.

She totally thought she would be okay having our daughter _without_ me!

It was less than a year and a half later she began her 5 year long affair. She admits that she created this reality in her brain. That I didn't care so much about her or our family or our future. It wasn't until after Dday that I recovered quite a few emails and notes that I had written to her over the years asking what I could do to try and fix things. We talk about everything now. 

Don't *EVER* shut up.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Dig - Thanks for sharing.

Some very interesting parallels jumped out at me, though the genders are switched in my situation.

Prior to the A, my WS shut down despite many attempts on my part to get him to open up. Sees himself as very much the "strong man," though he doesn't recognize how much he leans on multiple hobbies (and spending money on them) to "cope" with his anxiety disorder and mild depression issues. Very dysfunctional way to cope, though he rationalized that it was better than getting drunk or high.

But once he got angry at me for "betraying" him by speaking about these precious hobbies in a couples counseling session, he turned to another woman and complained about me, starting down the road to an affair with her. 

Being strong was an illusion after all, wasn't it?


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## mintypeas

thank you somedaydig for sharing your story with me. i think im similiar to regret as in the strong woman i experienced a miscarriage at 10 weeks and we never really spoke about it but i just carried on with life. then last may i lost my father to a battle with cancer but yet again i never grieved in front of my family and my husband i had to be strong. i also did all the important things at home and made all the decisions and he felt unimportant and not needed. we stop worrying about our marriage and i thought it was all great well i was very wrong. i have not told much of my story because when i have given little bits i get bashed that i have believed what he has told me and that he is a liar. thats why i feel safe here as you all give the truth but dont make bs feel like they are wrong for trying to rebuild. and i dont ever shut up but the main thing is he does not shut up either!! xxx


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## SomedayDig

HG...yes, I think the "being strong" is an illusion and also an irony, because if they were so strong...why have an affair?

Minty...the Reconciliation thread is "safer" than most of TAM (except for Social which is just fun). That said, you can see that even the "nice" guy like me has zero problem calling it like I see it - like I did with CSS and Calvin. I care about them...therefore I don't hold punches. That would be insincere in my eyes. If you need a good shake, you will still get that in this thread - ableit, not the barrage you might endure "out there" in CWI.


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## russell28

Dig, watch out calling yourself a 'nice' guy.. that's the first step in becoming beta... being nice. Alpha's are mean and nasty, blowing snot bubbles nasty... 

ah.. not holding punches, whew... saved it there. Way to alpha up.


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## SomedayDig

I'm so alpha, it's not recongnized by mortals. 

:rofl:


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## mintypeas

somedaydig i am happy to be shaken when it is needed just think some people are not open to reconciling and bash people that are. at the end of the day what i put on here is only a fraction of what goes on and he is standing in front of me no one else so they cant see the pain he goes through too if that makes sense. xxx


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## CantSitStill

Mintypeas and anyone else, I am still available if you need anything. I come here and to my thread because they don't bother me like other threads. My pm box is always available. Btw..I just want to say, I have a friend that will get on my butt when I need it. She will not sugarcoat anything and I value her as a true friend. It's people like that, that I go to for advice. I may feel pushed or uncomfortable but at least she cares enough to tell me the truth when I need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I'm still taking time off,I'll be back.
If we can make it ( we will ) damn near anyone can.
Thanks for the verble slap Dig,I needed that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mintypeas

hello CSS its lovely to hear from you and we know you are there but i just wanted you both to know how much you helped us. as for sugercoating i dont want that at all thats why i like it here as people are truthful even if it may hurt but its not bitter thats what i have only experienced elsewhere and i dont need that i post if i feel i can help not to hurt people when they are at their lowest if that makes sense xxxx


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Mintypeas and anyone else, I am still available if you need anything. I come here and to my thread because they don't bother me like other threads. My pm box is always available. Btw..I just want to say, I have a friend that will get on my butt when I need it. She will not sugarcoat anything and I value her as a true friend. It's people like that, that I go to for advice. I may feel pushed or uncomfortable but at least she cares enough to tell me the truth when I need it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





calvin said:


> I'm still taking time off,I'll be back.
> If we can make it ( we will ) damn near anyone can.
> Thanks for the verble slap Dig,I needed that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



We love you guys. Take some time to love yourselves and each other. Make sure to do one really nice thing for each other and yourselves so when you go to bed at night you will know that you are loved and deserve love.


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## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> You're "going on again" because there's stuff muddled up inside your brain. You're "only" 2 months out from Dday and to be honest, you ain't seen nothing yet! I'm not saying that to scare you either. I'm saying it to prepare you.


Amen. And yet there is nothing that can prepare you. No matter how many times you are advised to brace for the roller coaster. No matter how many times you look at it and say I've got this, we've got this.


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## CantSitStill

You all have been such wonderful support, thank you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Now, for some good news. 

WS wanted to talk about some things. He said he realized he'd been spending way too much money. 

:smthumbup:

It's been "all about [his name]" and it has been making me unhappy. He's been especially bad about spending on his newest hobby, and his credit card debt has gotten too high - he added up the interest payments, and it's "ridiculous."

He proposed a debt-reduction plan for himself that included things like packing more lunches for work, eating out less (despite my pleas, before now he usually wouldn't even eat breakfast at home!), and biking to work when weather permits to both save money and lose weight.

He actually used the phrase "I have to grow up."

And he wants to quit IC, at least for the coming year. He feels he's met his goals. And also because it upsets me when he goes there.

I about fell off my chair.

He said these things have been percolating for awhile. Some recent things he said that figured in: someone from one of his hobby clubs died last week, and we watched an Oprah show featuring a Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh, who said some very wise things that affected him. If he died, he said it wouldn't be fair to leave me with this debt. Plus, he's been living as if he WASN'T going to have a tomorrow, and he keeps having tomorrows, so he better start living like he's not about to die; start BEING in the PRESENT.

At long last, it looks like the fog is finally starting to lift. It took 4 months. He's starting to take a hard look at himself and he's not falling to pieces when he sees imperfect behavior. WOW.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi guys
Just taking a break.
Had a rough week of two but things are slowly getting better.
You are all in my thoughts.
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> I'm so alpha, it's not recongnized by mortals.
> 
> :rofl:


Bullsh*t, you're so "beta' that you have to have training wheels on your airplane. LOL


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## Rookie4

calvin said:


> I'm still taking time off,I'll be back.
> If we can make it ( we will ) damn near anyone can.
> Thanks for the verble slap Dig,I needed that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, while you're taking time off, Cal, how about coming over to help me do the body work on my CJ? I suck as a welder.


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## SomedayDig

Wow, HG. Just wow. Such a remarkable difference in just a short while. That is very positive. IF, truly...seeing that Buddhist Monk on Oprah somehow sparked something in him, I suggest you taking a step for him. One of my favorite books; one that I've had for about 6 years, is called "How to Practice...The Way to a Meaningful Life" by the Dalai Lama.

It's a great book that helps one along the way to living a more enlightened life. Understanding things that are right in front of us, but we just can't see them for the turmoil we put ourselves in.

I think if you bought that book and told him that you felt a connection with that Oprah show and want to read a little more, maybe he will want to read it. Maybe he really does want to get well.


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## SomedayDig

Rookie4 said:


> Bullsh*t, you're so "beta' that you have to have training wheels on your airplane. LOL


Pffft...the training wheels are for my students!


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## Rookie4

I'm so "Alpha" that my picture is in the Dictionary as the personification thereof. I go hunting in Alaska and all of the Wolves commit suicide.


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## SomedayDig

Could be the smell, Rookie. Just a thought


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## Rookie4

I'm so "Alpha" that whenever I'm around all of the Drug Cartel Kingpins change their names to princepins.


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## Rookie4

"The Most Interesting Man in the World" is my chauffeur


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## hopefulgirl

Alpha, Shmalpha -

Real women go for Zen Men. :corkysm60:


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## TCSRedhead

I'm so Alpha that I... wait, I'm a girl... never mind!


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## hopefulgirl

SomedayDig said:


> Wow, HG. Just wow. Such a remarkable difference in just a short while. That is very positive. IF, truly...seeing that Buddhist Monk on Oprah somehow sparked something in him, I suggest you taking a step for him. One of my favorite books; one that I've had for about 6 years, is called "How to Practice...The Way to a Meaningful Life" by the Dalai Lama.
> 
> It's a great book that helps one along the way to living a more enlightened life. Understanding things that are right in front of us, but we just can't see them for the turmoil we put ourselves in.
> 
> I think if you bought that book and told him that you felt a connection with that Oprah show and want to read a little more, maybe he will want to read it. Maybe he really does want to get well.


Dig - I would try this if he had the patience to read these days. That's one of the things his anxiety disorder has killed. He used to be an avid reader, but the only thing he seems interested in reading now is manuals for his various hobby purchases.

Plus, he specifically told me in the last few months that he doesn't like when I give him things to read. I think he was taking it as me trying to give him MY point of view on things (Not Just Friends was indeed my view of what just happened!); until yesterday, he has been very resistant and defensive. 

I purposely tuned into that Oprah TV show because I hoped it might speak to him/us - passively watching TV with me he'll do, as long as we alternate who chooses the shows and the other person doesn't HATE the choice (he's set up his latest hobby's "workbench" on the living room coffee table). Years ago I bought one of Thich Nhat Hanh's books, so I knew the tone of what he might say on the show. 

I've also got one of the Dalai Lama's books - went to see him speak once, too; THAT was a lovely experience, because he is just the NICEST, most peaceful presence, and it truly really makes the room you're in a kinder, gentler place - it was in a museum's main hall with big dinosaurs in it, but it felt intimate because it was just filled with his warmth.

I'm not a Buddhist, but they can teach us a LOT. I think Thich Nhat Hanh really DID get through to my husband in a profound way, though there had to be some "readiness" in my husband.

One thing he really liked was the monk's suggestion for dealing with conflict: start by saying, "Darling, I'm suffering. Can you please help me." Simple but powerful words for starting with love and asking for compassion as the way to deal with problems. Seems really appropriate for all couple problems, but SO useful in infidelity situations, where both partners are suffering - don't you think?


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## SomedayDig

Well...how about this. It just might change your lives 


The Secret


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## SomedayDig

hopefulgirl said:


> Seems really appropriate for all couple problems, but SO useful in infidelity situations, where both partners are suffering - don't you think?


I absolutely do.


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## EI

When the cats's away, Dig and Rookie will play! LOL

Love you guys (and gals) ;-)

Carry on.........

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Sooooooo....Alpha I exude cuteness to thwart you!!


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> Well...how about this. It just might change your lives
> 
> 
> The Secret


Saw that! :thumbup:


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## SomedayDig

I've watched it like 6 times in a year. It has made a huge impact in my life.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> I've watched it like 6 times in a year. It has made a huge impact in my life.


The biggest thing for me was that it opened my eyes to greater possibilities and got me thinking. ....a lot. Did you notice yourself thinking how you thought you knew all of this and how much sense it made but you couldn't figure out why you didn't really SEE THINGS before. Like a veil had been lifted.


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## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> The biggest thing for me was that it opened my eyes to greater possibilities and got me thinking. ....a lot. Did you notice yourself thinking how you thought you knew all of this and how much sense it made but you couldn't figure out why you didn't really SEE THINGS before. Like a veil had been lifted.


Honestly, it answered much about my life. I understood why it was that I was able to envision myself becoming a professional pilot and becoming one in less than 4 months; then flying jets a year later.

It also helped me last year when I found it on Netflix to envision a better future for myself AND my family. While it didn't help with mind movies and sh-t I dealt with, it helped me in other ways.

I hope it helps others.


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## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Sooooooo....Alpha I exude cuteness to thwart you!!


OK, I have nothing to say about this. I have about 27,000 dogs and would have more if I could find building big enough to accomodate them.


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## SomedayDig

I so want that pooch.


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## Rookie4

I had a Dalmatian years ago , when I used to race cars. He was part of my pit crew, and always knew if the race was going well or if I was way behind. If I was close, he would stand by the guard-rail and bark and wag his tail, if I was doing crappy , he would go lie under the tire trailer.


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## SomedayDig

I love those dogs, man. Very, very loyal...not that most aren't. It's just that a Dalmatian is one of THOSE dogs that will _never_ leave your side. Like our old, faithful German Shepherd was. Female, black Shepherd full bred. She was a beautiful and wonderful dog. I miss her all the time. My mother in law who does watercolors, gave Regret and I a painting of her a few years ago. It is spot on our dog, Sadie.


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## CantSitStill

Wow this thread is all over the place today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> I so want that pooch.


Dude, she's asking for it. Just take her.


----------



## calvin

I once made Chuck Norris scream like a little girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Harken Banks said:


> Dude, she's asking for it. Just take her.


Lol


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Positive thoughts please. Matt is moving out of our room to another room in the house tonight. He hurts so badly. I'm trying to give him the space that he needs. I don't know what else to do at this point.

Steve Harley says to stick to the logic line, that we have a plan and a structure that WILL help us rebuild our relationship and a happy future. But logic cannot help Matt want to get through the negative emotions that he still feels.


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## jh52

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Positive thoughts please. Matt is moving out of our room to another room in the house tonight. He hurts so badly. I'm trying to give him the space that he needs. I don't know what else to do at this point.
> 
> Steve Harley says to stick to the logic line, that we have a plan and a structure that WILL help us rebuild our relationship and a happy future. But logic cannot help Matt want to get through the negative emotions that he still feels.


Positive thoughts Mrs M.

Another room is better than to another apartment/house.

Give him space -- and talk when he wants to --

Don't follow him around --

Day by Day ----

Take care !!


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## Wazza

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Positive thoughts please. Matt is moving out of our room to another room in the house tonight. He hurts so badly. I'm trying to give him the space that he needs. I don't know what else to do at this point.
> 
> Steve Harley says to stick to the logic line, that we have a plan and a structure that WILL help us rebuild our relationship and a happy future. But logic cannot help Matt want to get through the negative emotions that he still feels.


Sending positive thoughts to both of you.

Sorry, but I never totally got over the negative emotions....they still rise up sometimes. I don't believe that leaving is a solution, though. Least not for me.

I can say Mrs Wazza brings much more joy than pain, and increasingly so over time.

Hope you both find what is right for you.


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## Acabado

Positive, healing thoughts your way. Mrs & Mr.


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## calvin

Go Hawks...ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

calvin said:


> Go Hawks...ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Go Kings! Sorry, couldn't resist...


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Positive thoughts please. Matt is moving out of our room to another room in the house tonight. He hurts so badly. I'm trying to give him the space that he needs. I don't know what else to do at this point.
> 
> Steve Harley says to stick to the logic line, that we have a plan and a structure that WILL help us rebuild our relationship and a happy future. But logic cannot help Matt want to get through the negative emotions that he still feels.


Here's hoping that another room will be enough. MM, Matt definitely needs some space and time to be able to make a firm decision about his future and not swing back and forth. Until he is ready , hang on and continue to implement the MB strategies, they are good ones and have saved many a marriage that was in worse shape than yours. Look at some of the other posters on that site and you will see. The Harleys saved the marriage of a couple we know after the husband had an affair, and they are doing very good.


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## daisygirl 41

Positive thoughts coming your way Mrs M.

Matt is hurting and his trust in you has been shattered. The only thing i think you can do right now is keep on proving to him that you are trustworthy and being beyond honest with him.

15 months in and I honestly still do noy trust my husband and thats very hard for me to admit. He has done nothing to make me think he is doing anything, but the trust has been shattered and its going to take a very long time for me to feel secure again. At times the anxiety and worry are crippling, i hate feeling like this, and part of me just wants to run away from it all and start fresh elsewhere.

Hubby gets frustrated that i still dont trust him, feels like hes living life under a microscope. I dont want him to feel that way, but i cant help the way i feel, i simply cannot trust my heart with him and let go of all the hurt.

We have been really struggling this last two weeks but we have talked somewhat and we are still both in this for the long haul, but its very difficult at times.

I took my daughter and her friend into the city shopping on friday. My H txt me at about 12pm to say he was going out on his motorbike for a ride. I went to pieces, had a full on panic attack in the shop and was on pins for the rest of the day, When i came home i was exhausted and had to go to bed. Im taking my daughter to see Rhianna on Monday. Im worried about it already. Worried that hes going to be doing something he shouldnt be when im not there. I hate feeling like this. I was always such a strong independent person, his A has crushed me.


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## margrace

hg, i'm so happy to hear about the forward movement of your R! and i was really struck by this little snippet....



hopefulgirl said:


> ...the monk's suggestion for dealing with conflict: start by saying, "Darling, I'm suffering. Can you please help me." Simple but powerful words for starting with love and asking for compassion as the way to deal with problems.


so honest and direct -- almost _obvious_ -- and yet it's the kind of thing that it almost never occurs to us to say. i know there's something for me to learn in there!


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## margrace

Wazza said:


> Sending positive thoughts to both of you.
> 
> Sorry, but I never totally got over the negative emotions....they still rise up sometimes. I don't believe that leaving is a solution, though. Least not for me.
> 
> I can say Mrs Wazza brings much more joy than pain, and increasingly so over time.
> 
> Hope you both find what is right for you.


:iagree:and i'm sending my positive thoughts too.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Sending positive thoughts to both of you.
> 
> Sorry, but I never totally got over the negative emotions....they still rise up sometimes. I don't believe that leaving is a solution, though. Least not for me.
> 
> I can say Mrs Wazza brings much more joy than pain, and increasingly so over time.
> 
> Hope you both find what is right for you.


Wazza, the questions I have for you is , How much of this is due to Mrs. Wazza and her efforts and how much is due to the passage of time, and your own willingness to forgive? If I'm not mistaken, she was never completely forthcoming about the affair, nor was she completely transparent, was she?


----------



## mintypeas

hello everyone. mrs mathias- im sending lots of positive thoughts your way and you are both in my prayers.

i hope everyone is well we are enjoying some beautiful weather in england which is rare so making the most of it!!

having a bad day today i keep asking the questions to him and getting annoyed with myself why do i keep going over the same things? why did he not see that everything she told him were lies( and there were some sick lies!!) was it because everything he said were lies too? i saw through her lies straight away why didnt he? nothing they ever said to each other was any truth at all!! what was the point? xxxx


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



mintypeas said:


> hello everyone. mrs mathias- im sending lots of positive thoughts your way and you are both in my prayers.
> 
> i hope everyone is well we are enjoying some beautiful weather in england which is rare so making the most of it!!
> 
> having a bad day today i keep asking the questions to him and getting annoyed with myself why do i keep going over the same things? why did he not see that everything she told him were lies( and there were some sick lies!!) was it because everything he said were lies too? i saw through her lies straight away why didnt he? nothing they ever said to each other was any truth at all!! what was the point? xxxx


You keep asking questions because you are still in disbelief and shock and your mind is trying to accept and make sense of it all. The reason he believed her and she believed him is because just like all affairs their's was nothing but a fantasy. And not only don't fantasies not have to make sense but they are built on foundations of deceit and untruths. It's just what they are. So you not being part of the fantasy could pull the curtains aside and see the wizard for what he really was. All smoke and mirrors. Nothing more.


----------



## mintypeas

thank you bfree. i just dont understand why they lied to each other the only truth my husband told was his name and where he lived thats it!! she told no truths even when i contacted her by text she lied saying it was her brother that was talking to me!! i worked out after that it was her as she sent a message to me by mistake that was definately her!! the brother never existed. i just find it so sick that people do this. the one that gets me is why did he introduce our daughter 6 months into the ea as a baby he didnt know about that he had with a one night stand he even told her my name!! that hurts alot that i was a one night stand!! she asked if he had contact with his daughter and he said yes regular contact with her and me well i laughed at that as yes he did we are married!!! sorry rambling again just need to get this sh!t out of my head xxx


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## calvin

mintypeas said:


> thank you bfree. i just dont understand why they lied to each other the only truth my husband told was his name and where he lived thats it!! she told no truths even when i contacted her by text she lied saying it was her brother that was talking to me!! i worked out after that it was her as she sent a message to me by mistake that was definately her!! the brother never existed. i just find it so sick that people do this. the one that gets me is why did he introduce our daughter 6 months into the ea as a baby he didnt know about that he had with a one night stand he even told her my name!! that hurts alot that i was a one night stand!! she asked if he had contact with his daughter and he said yes regular contact with her and me well i laughed at that as yes he did we are married!!! sorry rambling again just need to get this sh!t out of my head xxx


I know where you coming from Minty,my wife gave OM our hou phone number so he could call while I was at work.
Bfree us right about the fanasy thing,my wife got so caught up in it that it did'nt and still does'nt make sense to me.
They were lost...big time but now they know.
Just hang tight and let you hubby show you how much he cares,how much of a bonehead he was.
CSS cant believe she did what she did either.
I say give them a chance to make amends.
Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
Once they see,well then we can work on it all and be right again.
Patience Minty,I bet it will work out for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, the questions I have for you is , How much of this is due to Mrs. Wazza and her efforts and how much is due to the passage of time, and your own willingness to forgive? If I'm not mistaken, she was never completely forthcoming about the affair, nor was she completely transparent, was she?


Rookie, she may have been completely forthcoming in the end, but I have no way to verify it so I choose to be skeptical, because she did lie so much earlier. That is just damage that cannot be undone, the same as the affair itself is damage that cannot be undone. 

It's hard for me to split out what hurts, but I *think* I would have dealt with things much better if she had confessed honestly. I know a lot of my thoughts in dark times are about "What if...?"

If that is so, then Matt has at least one advantage over me, should he pursue reconciliation. Mrs M came clean in a way that allows him some ability to validate what happened, and he had a lot of help trying to poke holes in her story. I dunno that Mrs Wazza could have stood what Mrs M took on TAM, and I would not ask her to come here, because I would not subject her to what WS get here.

Passage of time vs her efforts vs my willingness to forgive. All have played a part. Were I unwilling to forgive the other two would not have been enough. But it also helps that I know Mrs Wazza to be a person of very good character. I could conceive her cheating again in a moment of weakness, but I could not conceive her stringing me along while hiding a steady stream of affairs in the background.


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## mintypeas

hello calvin thank you always talk sense!! the only reason they started talking was because she told him her twin sister died in the town we lived in which is a lie as i checked with the police( im friendly with them so can find out all sorts!!). i also asked if he had given her our home number and he hadnt as she didnt know he was married!! he was single he was 28 and fancy free with no responsibilities!! he is married he is 37 and has a family!! why so many lies between them thats what i dont understand i cant believe people are that stupid!! when he was telling me about her i saw all the lies straight away why didnt he? was the fog that deep?
xxx


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## calvin

God my typos suck.
Anyway,I love CSS and even if it takes a lot of time and I struggle with myself
we are at a much better place.
It hurts....bad.
It can also be really good.
I need to stop fighting myself and let it go,I'm afraid to do that.
I have no reason not to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mintypeas

thats how i feel im fighting myself and i dont want to anymore how can i concentrate on us if im fighting me and the sh!t in my head? i have gone the most 2 days without it there hovering in the front oof my mind but then bang here i go again!! the sad part is that even when i knew it all i never lost one bit of love for him. i jsut cant believe he was so stupid. when i contacted her she wanted to ring him and give him a piece of her mind but i said no was i wrong to do that? i just didnt want any contact ever again and neither did he!! does css scare you ever with the anger she feels towards herself i know today when i screamed at him that i saw such anger in him that was aimed at himself but it was scary!! xxx


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## calvin

mintypeas said:


> thats how i feel im fighting myself and i dont want to anymore how can i concentrate on us if im fighting me and the sh!t in my head? i have gone the most 2 days without it there hovering in the front oof my mind but then bang here i go again!! the sad part is that even when i knew it all i never lost one bit of love for him. i jsut cant believe he was so stupid. when i contacted her she wanted to ring him and give him a piece of her mind but i said no was i wrong to do that? i just didnt want any contact ever again and neither did he!! does css scare you ever with the anger she feels towards herself i know today when i screamed at him that i saw such anger in him that was aimed at himself but it was scary!! xxx


As long as the anger was aimed at himself and not you then dont worry.
No contact at all wither the OW.
Me and the OM went back and forth for a year,he would not leave me alone,he said some pretty bad stuff about CSS
and my kids that was not true.
I should have never responded but I did,he set up fights,told me he was coming to my house and a lot of other things that were much worse.
Dont get caught up into it like I did,it only feeds them.
I actually had to go to the police,if he would have met me like he said he wanted many times
It still would have not done any good.
I fed his ego and he knew he was getting to me.
Zero contact....none,cut her out of your life.
Thats the best way to get back at them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> As long as the anger was aimed at himself and not you then dont worry.
> No contact at all wither the OW.
> Me and the OM went back and forth for a year,he would not leave me alone,he said some pretty bad stuff about CSS
> and my kids that was not true.
> I should have never responded but I did,he set up fights,told me he was coming to my house and a lot of other things that were much worse.
> Dont get caught up into it like I did,it only feeds them.
> I actually had to go to the police,if he would have met me like he said he wanted many times
> It still would have not done any good.
> I fed his ego and he knew he was getting to me.
> Zero contact....none,cut her out of your life.
> Thats the best way to get back at them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought you were taking some time off from TAM?


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## mintypeas

sorry bfree i think its my fault!! xxx


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## calvin

bfree said:


> I thought you were taking some time off from TAM?


I did take a few days but I feel I got my head screwed back on straight now.
I really dont have anything to fear,just myself.
I need to stop being afraid that it will happen again.It was'nt like CSS to do
This in the first place.
I will limit my time here,better that way.
I realise now that if it happens again I will live and thrive.
I must stop worrying about something that is not going to come about again.
No point to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

bfree said:


> I thought you were taking some time off from TAM?


I'm good bfree,I swear.
I give up on holding on to the pain,its holding us back.
I dont have anything to fear,I really dont.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> I'm good bfree,I swear.
> I give up on holding on to the pain,its holding us back.
> I dont have anything to fear,I really dont.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I just want to make sure you take time out for yourself. You know I love ya bro.


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## calvin

mintypeas said:


> hello calvin thank you always talk sense!! the only reason they started talking was because she told him her twin sister died in the town we lived in which is a lie as i checked with the police( im friendly with them so can find out all sorts!!). i also asked if he had given her our home number and he hadnt as she didnt know he was married!! he was single he was 28 and fancy free with no responsibilities!! he is married he is 37 and has a family!! why so many lies between them thats what i dont understand i cant believe people are that stupid!! when he was telling me about her i saw all the lies straight away why didnt he? was the fog that deep?
> xxx


My POS lied a lot to get sympathy from CSS,he talked about near death experiences he had,told her he was worred about his daughter.
Even said he had a heart attack in a bar and told people not to call the ambulance,just give my daughter my money.
Incredible,OM didnt have a heart attack and he does'nt have squat to leave his daughter.
They have nothing to stand on Minty so they stand on lies to make themselves look good.
Our spouses bougt it,why? I dont know.
As long as they realise it and what they almost gave up.
Thats what matters.

Bfree I cant be off Tams while the Hawks have run at the cup.
I will slow down though.
I'm weird,I'm different....this thing took me a long time to figure out
It wont ruin my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Ok, I just want to make sure you take time out for yourself. You know I love ya bro.


Thanks man,you're a good dude.
Its nuts holding on.
Cant do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> My POS lied a lot to get sympathy from CSS,he talked about near death experiences he had,told her he was worred about his daughter.
> Even said he had a heart attack in a bar and told people not to call the ambulance,just give my daughter my money.
> Incredible,OM didnt have a heart attack and he does'nt have squat to leave his daughter.
> They have nothing to stand on Minty so they stand on lies to make themselves look good.
> Our spouses bougt it,why? I dont know.
> As long as they realise it and what they almost gave up.
> Thats what matters.
> 
> Bfree I cant be off Tams while the Hawks have run at the cup.
> I will slow down though.
> I'm weird,I'm different....this thing took me a long time to figure out
> It wont ruin my life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what are we going to do if my Bruins end up playing your Hawks for the Stanley Cup?


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## calvin

Oooo,Hardcore Pawn is on!
I hate this show.
Four episodes on,guess I better watch all of them.
Just to make sure I really hate it.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

mintypeas said:


> sorry bfree i think its my fault!! xxx


Nope,my fault.
Look at the self control B1 has.
I'm getting there,a work in progress I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Rookie, she may have been completely forthcoming in the end, but I have no way to verify it so I choose to be skeptical, because she did lie so much earlier. That is just damage that cannot be undone, the same as the affair itself is damage that cannot be undone.
> 
> It's hard for me to split out what hurts, but I *think* I would have dealt with things much better if she had confessed honestly. I know a lot of my thoughts in dark times are about "What if...?"
> 
> If that is so, then Matt has at least one advantage over me, should he pursue reconciliation. Mrs M came clean in a way that allows him some ability to validate what happened, and he had a lot of help trying to poke holes in her story. I dunno that Mrs Wazza could have stood what Mrs M took on TAM, and I would not ask her to come here, because I would not subject her to what WS get here.
> 
> Passage of time vs her efforts vs my willingness to forgive. All have played a part. Were I unwilling to forgive the other two would not have been enough. But it also helps that I know Mrs Wazza to be a person of very good character. I could conceive her cheating again in a moment of weakness, but I could not conceive her stringing me along while hiding a steady stream of affairs in the background.


Well, better you than me. IDK how you do it. I need to have my ducks lined up more than you do, I guess. I simply put, could not live with someone who I have doubts about or who I feel isn't being completely square with me. As far as her " very good moral character" I would take that with a huge grain of salt. After all, she is a cheater, right? So how good could her character really be? In Sweetie's case, I had to be sure of her love/desire and commitment and to see huge IMPROVEMENTS in her character before giving her another chance, but to each his own.


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## jupiter13

Hey been off a few days. There has been a major emergency come up in the family unit. This has caused my WH and I to have to take on an united front. I am thinking he is going to take this as meaning all is right between us now and he doesn't have t still answer questions etc. Has anyone else ever had t g through something that took the two of you as a unit to work through?


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## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Well, better you than me. IDK how you do it. I need to have my ducks lined up more than you do, I guess. I simply put, could not live with someone who I have doubts about or who I feel isn't being completely square with me. As far as her " very good moral character" I would take that with a huge grain of salt. After all, she is a cheater, right? So how good could her character really be? In Sweetie's case, I had to be sure of her love/desire and commitment and to see huge IMPROVEMENTS in her character before giving her another chance, but to each his own.


Mrs Wazza was a cheater at one point. So was Sweetie. Both of the have shown remorse in their own way. Both of them have worked on their character. 

I have moments of doubt about Mrs Wazza and I believe in your shoes I would have moments of doubt about Sweetie. 

Really the under,using problem we deal with is the same. There are things Sweetie has said to you that you have to take on faith. Same here.


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## russell28

bfree said:


> So what are we going to do if my Bruins end up playing your Hawks for the Stanley Cup?


What a finish last night.. Go B's.. 

As for them lying.. My wife kept saying how she can't believe she fell for his lies, and how the OM was such a liar.. I asked if she was angry because once she realized how much she was lying to him, she caught on that he was full of as much bull as she was.. she admitted that yes, she did think about that and she isn't angry with him, she's angry with herself.. She said that most of what she was telling him was either fabricated or embellished to make it sound better or worst.. I guess when they come out of the fog they realize that since they were a full of crap phoney, the other person was too... surprise. She says when she thinks back she sees herself in the third person as if she's looking from the outside.. I wonder if that's a coping mechanism.


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## Acabado

russell28 said:


> What a finish last night.. Go B's..
> As for them lying.. My wife kept saying how she can't believe she fell for his lies, and how the OM was such a liar.. I asked if she was angry because once she realized how much she was lying to him, she caught on that he was full of as much bull as she was.. she admitted that yes, she did think about that and she isn't angry with him, she's angry with herself.. She said that most of what she was telling him was either fabricated or embellished to make it sound better or worst.. I guess when they come out of the fog they realize that since they were a full of crap phoney, the other person was too... surprise.
> ------------------
> She says when she thinks back she sees herself in the third person as if she's looking from the outside.. I wonder if that's a coping mechanism.


I put that separation line on porpouse. The piece above is really great. I'm happy to hear she's capable of self examination and making herself acountable. I believe there's nothing more important in this nightmare than complet ownership. With this the rest likely comes later naturaly.
The latest part of the quote is sooo common. And both good and potentialy bad. Good because she's putting distance between the woman who made poor decisions, making those required internal changes in order to reject her, she doesn't see herself like that anymore.
Bad becasue she needs to keep digging and accepting that "woman" as a part of herself, a real "self" which can resurface if she doesn't chose every day, every minute to keep her caged, a part she needs to bury but still be aware of her existence. She just can't afford to ignore her.


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## russell28

Acabado said:


> I put that separation line on porpouse. The piece above is really great. I'm happy to hear she's capable of self examination and making herself acountable. I believe there's nothing more important in this nightmare than complet ownership. With this the rest likely comes later naturaly.
> The latest part of the quote is sooo common. And both good and potentialy bad. Good because she's putting distance between the woman who made poor decisions, making those required internal changes in order to reject her, she doesn't see herself like that anymore.
> Bad becasue she needs to keep digging and accepting that "woman" as a part of herself, a real "self" which can resurface if she doesn't chose every day, every minute to keep her caged, a part she needs to bury but still be aware of her existence. She just can't afford to ignore her.


This is where I hope that she now understand the ramifications of those poor decisions.. where there was justification in the past, there may be more caution and consideration of consequences in the future. She needs to examine how her actions were not a benefit to her, or something she 'needed' or a 'fix' etc.. but something that ended painfully for her as well as me. Saying things like 'it's an escape..' becomes 'why would I want to lie and sneak to avoid spending time with my family and husband who loves me'... The need to flirt with men at work is now something that she knows isn't healthy or good for her self esteem, it's a dangerous path that can lead to heartache and pain... She learned one other thing.. how much I really love her. When I tell her how beautiful she looks, she might start to hear it now and believe I'm not just saying it, I actually feel it.

Edit: 
I found an interesting theory that states that by dreaming or remembering in 3rd person, we are attempting to distance ourselves from the proceedings, putting them in the past.. and this outer view of ourselves shows us our mistakes and allows us to grow in response to examining who we are from the outside.

I like that one, I'm going with it...


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## hopefulgirl

Three steps forward, one step back. 

WS isn't completely out of the fog yet.

He outlined more of his financial recovery plan the other night. His cutting back on current spending habits (hobbies, daily eating out) was intended to SAVE money and then put that money into savings. BIG change for him. He hasn't put money into savings before.

Unfortunately, some of his plan included taking money right now from the savings THAT I BROUGHT INTO THE MARRIAGE to erase his credit card debt. I had done that for him a few times in the past (a few times before we were married as well as since), though before now he had not asked me to do it - but it was always for lesser amounts, and it was always when I was employed full time and when my (I hesitate to say "our") savings was substantially larger than it is now. (I hate the idea of paying interest, so when I saw $1000 or so on one of his credit card bills, I offered to pay it and he accepted.)

On the night I found out about the affair, he was out of town. I didn't know if it was the end of the marriage, and he was doing so much travel then I didn't know if he might have a "girl in every port" - I had no idea what kind of man I was married to or what he was capable of. So I transferred most of the savings (all from an account in my name) in our bank to a savings account at a brokerage, where I've kept a "cushion" account that was just a little less accessible but in the same location as my IRA. 

He COULD get to it - he has power of attorney, and I've never hidden this stuff or the passwords (I give him written financial status updates every 6 months about all my assets - he doesn't have to do this sort of thing for me since he has nothing but a 401k), but he's not financially savvy, so it would take some effort on his part.

Before we had this discussion the other night, he thought the money in the bank would easily cover his credit card debt. What's left in there now would cover it, but just barely; there'd be little left. So I told him what I'd done on D-Day. 

Then he said, "When were you going to tell me?" 



I didn't say anything that night, but those words hurt me to the core!! The money discussion was tense enough, and we had to get through that. But the irony of those words were completely lost on him! The rest of the money discussion was very tense - HE was angry about my not being willing to use savings to pay off his credit card debt AND my not telling him sooner about transferring the savings out of the bank.

It's still in savings - moved from one money market account to another. And he could get at it, if he wanted to. It's just a little less accessible. 

This time, I don't feel we can afford to bleed any more from the savings, as I'm only working part time and the level of savings is too low now. He's just going to have to pay that interest, now that he's racked up the charges. The more he saves by not spending his income, the quicker he'll pay it off - but he doesn't like that I've made a unilateral decision to not use savings (even though it WAS my money that I brought into the marriage) to pay off HIS hobby debt.

Then last night, when I tried to use the Buddhist monk's words to tell him how hurt I was by the sentence "when were you going to tell me" - "Darling, I'm suffering. Can you please help me?" - he got angry and said I owed HIM an apology for not telling him sooner about transferring the money. He couldn't even hear that by not telling me himself about the affair ("when were YOU going to tell ME?"), I felt frightened and felt I had to protect myself financially, so I transferred the money. The fog has descended again, but it lifted before and I hope it will again...til then, I've got to stay strong. 

There are consequences for his behavior, both his spending and his affair. I'm not doing the work or making it easier on him. 180 time again.


----------



## bfree

russell28 said:


> This is where I hope that she now understand the ramifications of those poor decisions.. where there was justification in the past, there may be more caution and consideration of consequences in the future. She needs to examine how her actions were not a benefit to her, or something she 'needed' or a 'fix' etc.. but something that ended painfully for her as well as me. Saying things like 'it's an escape..' becomes 'why would I want to lie and sneak to avoid spending time with my family and husband who loves me'... The need to flirt with men at work is now something that she knows isn't healthy or good for her self esteem, it's a dangerous path that can lead to heartache and pain... She learned one other thing.. how much I really love her. When I tell her how beautiful she looks, she might start to hear it now and believe I'm not just saying it, I actually feel it.
> 
> Edit:
> I found an interesting theory that states that by dreaming or remembering in 3rd person, we are attempting to distance ourselves from the proceedings, putting them in the past.. and this outer view of ourselves shows us our mistakes and allows us to grow in response to examining who we are from the outside.
> 
> I like that one, I'm going with it...


I like that one too. If I start talking in the third person can I claim I'm learning? Just kidding.


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## bfree

HG, its not going to change completely overnight. As long as there is overall progress I would be hopeful(girl). It seems to me that whenever he hurts you and you take a step back (180) he seems to eventually get it. I would continue that if I were you and see if he gets it again. Sometimes people say things without thinking although he should probably be starting to see the consequences of his actions. Give it time and see how it goes.


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## Robsia

Hopefulgirl - I hear you one the two steps forward one step back.

Recently we had a little crisis. I found out something that could potentially have been evidence that there was something still going on, or could potentially have been totally innocent. But I freaked, believing the worst case scenario and jumped straight into sleuth mode. I also did a stupid thing and created a fake FB account in his name and friend requested the tit-pic woman, in the hopes of getting her to reveal that there WAS something going on between them. He doesn't have his own FB account.

He found out and was absolutely furious that I was sneaking around and being underhand instead of just asking him about it.

Of course, if there HAD been anhything going on, it's not as if he would tell me the truth, is it? So sleuth mode it had to be.

During the argument he told me he was "sick and tired of not being believed". He said he felt violated and telling him where he could go and who he could talk to. I told him he could go where he liked, so long as I know about it, and I didn't mind who he could talk to.

He brought up that I wasn't letting him talk to the tit-pic woman!!!!!!

I went mad, of course I'm not going to let him talk to women he met on dating sites, especially not someone who sent him unsuitable pics and clearly had feelings for him, even if he didn't have them for her.

He said he was 'offended' that I thought he had such poor taste that there would be something going on with her. She clearly wasn't his type. Um - hello - you met her on a DATING site. You met her IRL TWICE. If she was so fugly then why meet her in the first place.

It's as if he can't see why this bothers me. He says there is and was nothing going on and I am expected to believe this blindly.

We're getting past it, but I'm struggling. The paranoia is strong and I'm doubting my bullsh!t radar.

Oh and I'm not to keep reminding him that I didn't have to take him back. I have to remember that he didn't have to come back!!


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## TCSRedhead

I'm debating my response but I'll put it out there anyhow - take it or leave it as you choose.

HG/Robsia - I don't hear remorse in either of your spouses. Both of you are still having to battle to get information, to get your spouse to do the majority of the work and to take RESPONSIBILITY for the consequences of their actions. Mac even suggesting that it would be an option for him to speak to someone he met in such an inappropriate manner really indicates he doesn't understand the impact of his actions.

Maybe stepping back for you two would be good to see how much action your partners take in doing the work required to truly get your marriage turned in the right direction.


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## Robsia

^He's been doing okay for the last three WEEKS till I pulled my FB trick. I really felt I was seeing a difference. We were even looking at houses.

Problem is, when we come on here and vent, you get a skewed view of him.

The thing with the tit-pic woman looks bad until I tell you that since D-day 1 - way back in March - I have had Find My Friends enabled on his and my iPhones so I know exactly where hs is all the time. Of course, I only know where his phone is, but tha'ts easily proved by calling him or texting him and expecting him to be there and answer.

So since March there have been no unexplained places. He's been either at home, at work (which is 200 miles away from where she lives), shopping, or visiting his parents. He doesn't go out much. So the only way they could be together is if she comes to his house on the evenings he is not working away or with me and they never go anywhere.

So I do want to believe him. It's just hard sometimes. He does underdstand why I freaked out about what I found, but he was furious over the FB stunt.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> *He brought up that I wasn't letting him talk to the tit-pic woman!!!!!!*
> 
> I went mad, of course I'm not going to let him talk to women he met on dating sites, especially not someone who sent him unsuitable pics and clearly had feelings for him, even if he didn't have them for her.
> 
> He said he was 'offended' that I thought he had such poor taste that there would be something going on with her. She clearly wasn't his type. Um - hello - you met her on a DATING site. You met her IRL TWICE. If she was so fugly then why meet her in the first place.
> 
> *It's as if he can't see why this bothers me. He says there is and was nothing going on and I am expected to believe this blindly.*
> 
> We're getting past it, but I'm struggling. The paranoia is strong and I'm doubting my bullsh!t radar.
> 
> Oh and I'm not to keep reminding him that I didn't have to take him back. *I have to remember that he didn't have to come back!*!


I get that we only see pieces of the puzzle - but these pieces (the ones I bolded) clearly don't fit in a remorseful wayward puzzle. 

Contact with someone he met on a dating site who sent him pictures of her breasts is just so clearly inappropriate. The fact that he would draw that in to the conversation as a way of shifting blame and responsibility from him to you - well, that doesn't work. 

I can tell you that to this day, I still THANK my H for giving me another opportunity to make this work. I keep telling him that I will make sure he never regrets that decision. 

Anyhow, it's clear that you have a different view so I'll let it be. Just clarifying what drove my response.


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## hopefulgirl

I appreciate the observation, Red. His recent behavior was indeed showing no remorse. Other times I do see remorse. When the fog rolls in the selfish podperson takes over. One text I got from him last month said "I'm so confused." I think he bounces back and forth between feeling true remorse, actually hating himself for doing things that were so unlike the kind of person he believes himself to be (that's why it's so hard for him to spend much time going over those dates and times with me), and being a defensive jerk.


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## Robsia

TCSRedhead said:


> I get that we only see pieces of the puzzle - but these pieces (the ones I bolded) clearly don't fit in a remorseful wayward puzzle.
> 
> Contact with someone he met on a dating site who sent him pictures of her breasts is just so clearly inappropriate. The fact that he would draw that in to the conversation as a way of shifting blame and responsibility from him to you - well, that doesn't work.
> 
> I can tell you that to this day, I still THANK my H for giving me another opportunity to make this work. I keep telling him that I will make sure he never regrets that decision.
> 
> Anyhow, it's clear that you have a different view so I'll let it be. Just clarifying what drove my response.


I agree, and I'm not defending him. I was shocked that he thought he should still be allowed to talk to her, and stunned when he told me I had to remember that he didn't have to come back.

But these are words spoken in anger, which he admits he struggles with. That's why he's in anger management. He has no filter between brain and mouth.

It's tough. He HAS been remorseful, until now. I get the impression he has been resenting me for the conditions I placed on our R. I also think he thinks that I think I'm a better person than he is for taking him back. He admits he wouldn't have taken me back had I done this to him.

When we went to MC before I mentioned that he used to get angrier when I tried to remain calm during our arguments. I asked him why. He said he felt as if I thought I was superior to him for being able to stay calm, and the more I tried to stay calm, the angrier he got that I was able to control myself, so the more he tried to destroy that control.

I think this is similar. It's as if he resents me for giving him another chance because it makes him feel bad.

How do I even begin to tackle that?


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> I agree, and I'm not defending him. I was shocked that he thought he should still be allowed to talk to her, and stunned when he told me I had to remember that he didn't have to come back.
> 
> But these are words spoken in anger, which he admits he struggles with. That's why he's in anger management. He has no filter between brain and mouth.
> 
> It's tough. He HAS been remorseful, until now. I get the impression he has been resenting me for the conditions I placed on our R. I also think he thinks that I think I'm a better person than he is for taking him back. He admits he wouldn't have taken me back had I done this to him.
> 
> When we went to MC before I mentioned that he used to get angrier when I tried to remain calm during our arguments. I asked him why. He said he felt as if I thought I was superior to him for being able to stay calm, and the more I tried to stay calm, the angrier he got that I was able to control myself, so the more he tried to destroy that control.
> 
> I think this is similar. It's as if he resents me for giving him another chance because it makes him feel bad.
> 
> How do I even begin to tackle that?


You can't/don't begin to tackle that. It's his cross to bear, so to speak. 

What you're describing does sound a lot like resentment, more so than anger in a way. It's also like he wants to hurt you (emotionally) by being cruel and trying to provoke you. It's just the resentment for No Contact with someone inappropriate that's setting off my alarms. 

I'm really sorry - I really hope he's able to bring himself to a place to repair the damage he's already caused and to stop doing more damage. 

And, don't apologize or feel ashamed for checking his FB or any pieces of his life. That's part of what needs to happen for that trust to be rebuilt. (You referred to it as your FB trick which just indicated you felt badly about checking and you shouldn't).


----------



## Robsia

I didn't check his FB. He doesn't have FB.

I created a fake FB profile with his picture and friend-requested the tit-pic woman to try to get her to talk to me, thinking I was him, with the hopes that she would reveal something to me.

That's what he was so angry about.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Ah, ok. Misread that. Sorry.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Mrs Wazza was a cheater at one point. So was Sweetie. Both of the have shown remorse in their own way. Both of them have worked on their character.
> 
> I have moments of doubt about Mrs Wazza and I believe in your shoes I would have moments of doubt about Sweetie.
> 
> Really the under,using problem we deal with is the same. There are things Sweetie has said to you that you have to take on faith. Same here.


I think the major difference is that , in my case, my willingness to forgive, was PREDICATED on her character improvements, and her ability to prove her love/desire, and putting my needs first, last, and always. I was over her, and would have stayed that way. Sweetie did pretty much ALL of the heavy lifting, just for the opportunity to do so. Sorry but I don't see this in Mrs. Wazza. I think you put the cart before the horse. First proof, then faith (and only in measured doses). BTW, Sweetie agrees with this, enthusiastically.


----------



## Robsia

hopefulgirl said:


> I appreciate the observation, Red. His recent behavior was indeed showing no remorse. Other times I do see remorse. When the fog rolls in the selfish podperson takes over. One text I got from him last month said "I'm so confused." I think he bounces back and forth between feeling true remorse, actually hating himself for doing things that were so unlike the kind of person he believes himself to be (that's why it's so hard for him to spend much time going over those dates and times with me), and being a defensive jerk.


Yes. This!

I think BigMac is trying. And a lot of the time he is succeding. But when it's bad, it's pretty bad, and the resentments come flooding out en masse.

A bit like for the most part I try to control my anger and despair at what he has done. But when that control fails - it's not pretty.


----------



## bfree

There are many paths to get to each destination. I think the trick is not so much choosing the right path as it is choosing the right destination.


----------



## Robsia

But how do we know at the start of the journey which is the right destination?


----------



## russell28

Robsia said:


> But how do we know at the start of the journey which is the right destination?


You pick a destination.. like you would for a vacation (somewhere you say 'I'd like to go there'), then plan accordingly. Hope you don't get sent on any detours... or get a flat tire along the way. Try not to follow your GPS, because it will keep rerouting you... rerouting... rerouting based on traffic....


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Robsia said:


> But how do we know at the start of the journey which is the right destination?


By deciding where you want to eventually be.


----------



## TCSRedhead

In every marriage, there is a set of boundaries, rules, understandings, guidelines established by both parties sometimes explicitly and other times only implicitly.

Unfortunately, those were violated in the marriage so it's time to sit down and draft new ones. 

It's up to you to determine what you find acceptable and not and to then make decisions according to that.

For instance, if I were to contact AP or any OTHER inappropriate person, I know that would result in a divorce without any further questions.

I also know that demonstrating that behavior or demonstrating resentment towards my husband that that behavior won't be tolerated by him would also result in a divorce. Period.

He knows the boundaries by which I can live with in our marriage and chooses to abide by them, daily.


----------



## russell28

bfree said:


> By deciding where you want to eventually be.


Mine is 'old on porch, sipping juice and talking about our life together with my wife.. playing with our grandchildren and still enjoying each others company'.. In this destination, we stay close and never stray.. It's going to be a journey, but I'll work to stay on course.. I hope my wife doesn't find any rest stops along the way... or hit construction... I love these travel metaphors..


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



russell28 said:


> Mine is 'old on porch, sipping juice and talking about our life together with my wife.. playing with our grandchildren and still enjoying each others company'.. In this destination, we stay close and never stray.. It's going to be a journey, but I'll work to stay on course.. I hope my wife doesn't find any rest stops along the way... or hit construction... I love these travel metaphors..


But the most important part is knowing that you can only plan your OWN destination. You will end up on that porch sipping juice playing with the grandchildren and if your wife decides to come along for that journey then that's great. But it's your journey. If she should decide on another destination then that is her choice and her journey. You can only control yourself and what you do. That is what I mean by choosing your destination.


----------



## Robsia

TCSRedhead said:


> In every marriage, there is a set of boundaries, rules, understandings, guidelines established by both parties sometimes explicitly and other times only implicitly.
> 
> Unfortunately, those were violated in the marriage so it's time to sit down and draft new ones.
> 
> It's up to you to determine what you find acceptable and not and to then make decisions according to that.
> 
> For instance, if I were to contact AP or any OTHER inappropriate person, I know that would result in a divorce without any further questions.
> 
> I also know that demonstrating that behavior or demonstrating resentment towards my husband that that behavior won't be tolerated by him would also result in a divorce. Period.
> 
> He knows the boundaries by which I can live with in our marriage and chooses to abide by them, daily.


Then perhaps that's something we can bring up in counselling, agreeing those boundaries of acceptable behaviour.

I can't see why he doesn't understand why continued contact with a woman he met under such inappropriate circumstances, and who has demonstrated inappropriate behaviour to him is unacceptable.

I really shouldn't be having to tell him this.

If I wanted to maintain contact with a man I met on a dating site, who sent me pictures of his intimate parts, and with whom I communicated secretly, I think he'd have a pretty major problem with it. Especially if I defended it by saying he was "just a friend". Hello - red flag!

I think he does see it, but he was just acting out at what he considers my controlling him.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> Then perhaps that's something we can bring up in counselling, agreeing those boundaries of acceptable behaviour.
> 
> I can't see why he doesn't understand why continued contact with a woman he met under such inappropriate circumstances, and who has demonstrated inappropriate behaviour to him is unacceptable.
> 
> I really shouldn't be having to tell him this.
> 
> If I wanted to maintain contact with a man I met on a dating site, who sent me pictures of his intimate parts, and with whom I communicated secretly, I think he'd have a pretty major problem with it. Especially if I defended it by saying he was "just a friend". Hello - red flag!
> 
> I think he does see it, but he was just acting out at what he considers my controlling him.


It's a mindset change. H doesn't 'control' me. He simply states what he can or cannot abide in a relationship. It's up to me to CHOOSE to live with that or not. Same in reverse.


----------



## Robsia

^How long did it take you to reach that point? I assume it wasn't overnight? How patient was your H with you?


----------



## Robsia

Oh, and I just remembered another odd thing.

He brought up the fact that we don't say "I love you" much any more. I said that I seem to recall saying it fairly often, usually in the context of "I do love you and I want to work this out".

But the old "love you"s that used to end our FT chats, or when we said goodnight are missing.

It's hard to say I love you to someone who has ripped your heart out and stamped on it. Twice.

When I asked him why HE didn't say them any more he said he felt it would be hypocritical of him to tell me that he loved me after what he has done, that it would seem false.

I didn't even know what to make of that.

You're a man who has hurt your wife in the worse possible way imaginable. If you were truly sorry, wouldn't you WANT her to know that you love her, and tell her so?


----------



## TCSRedhead

Our D-Day was August 2011. It was three weeks prior to a move from one state to another here in the US.

NC was violated in September when posOM sent me a text that H intercepted. 

We literally lived in the same house and didn't really speak to each other about anything. We had dinner, exchanged pleasantries, occasionally had sex and drinks. Like roommates but with sex. 

In his mind, he gave it to January for my mindset to change and to get with the program. If I didn't change, he was filing for D and would not have looked back (knowing him the way I do, this is not a doubt in my mind, but I didn't know this was his plan).

We found out I was pregnant in November 2011. He extended that deadline a year (again, I didn't know this was looming) to allow to support me through bearing and delivering this child. 

I came to TAM looking for understanding of why he was behaving the way he was (why didn't he just get over it) and asking what he was asking. I didn't view him as controlling but I just couldn't GET what he was feeling. 

It was reading thread after thread of BS' experiences, emotions and damaged psyches that really got me to comprehend what was happening. 

I broke down and once committed to repairing this, we had all the ugly details out on the table within a few weeks and really began moving forward together.

We're nearly two years past D Day and the conversation rarely goes to talking about the A. Mostly, we talk about how we feel about what's happening with us now, what we want for the future and how much we love each other. 

So, without the complications of a pregnancy, he was giving me five months to pull my head out of my behind.


----------



## Robsia

We are three months exactly since D-day 1 when I found out about PA1 and less than 3 weeks since D-day 2 when I found out about PA2 and ongoing contact with tit-woman.

It's still very early and raw. I am hoping that he will eventually get it and really start to work with me. I'm hoping that when we get into our MC properly, that will help.

So far we have had one initial consultation a while ago. Yesterday he had his first one-to-one with her. I should have had mine next Weds but I have a surgical procedure that day so I'm not having mine till the week after. After that hopefully we will start going together, at which point it will be almost 4 months since D-day 1.

If I waver or get upset or make any indications that I'm not sure, all I get is "Well, divorce me then. You've got the papers. Send them off."

And yet when he is in his "right mind" for want of a better way of putting it, he swears he wants this, wants to work at it.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> I think the major difference is that , in my case, my willingness to forgive, was PREDICATED on her character improvements, and her ability to prove her love/desire, and putting my needs first, last, and always. I was over her, and would have stayed that way. Sweetie did pretty much ALL of the heavy lifting, just for the opportunity to do so. Sorry but I don't see this in Mrs. Wazza. I think you put the cart before the horse. First proof, then faith (and only in measured doses). BTW, Sweetie agrees with this, enthusiastically.


I'm sitting here struggling how best to reply to this in a sufficiently concise manner.

Look, the bottom line is that many years ago she lied and cheated for a period. She has done a lot of heavy lifting since, and in many areas of life I see evidence of what I regard as outstanding character....which doesn't change that she has flaws,some of which make her lesser marriage material. But then, we all have flaws....

She claims to have told me the truth of the affair. I have no way to verify what she has said. So I either deal with that or leave because I can never 100% coroborate the details . I have chosen to deal with it. 

What matters to me most is that it is in the past. Rugsweeping? Maybe, to a point. But it is not an unwillingness to deal with the issue. It is recognising what I can and cannot have, then making a decision based on my knowledge, and making the best of it.

If in my shoes you would probably have to leave and go elsewhere I cannot fault that. I considered the same thing. But it is not the choice I made.

If I left her, I would not trust the next person 100% either. That is just how I think. Probably partly a legacy of her affair...it destroyed my notion of 100% trust. Maybe that is evidence I am a broken human being, or maybe it is proof that I grew up a bit.

What would you suggest I do different?


----------



## CantSitStill

I know it is Calvin's choice whether or not we divorce and he knows I know this but I will at least do all I can to help him to feel secure with staying with me. I always let him know how much I love and appreciate him. He has told me that me telling him I love him triggers him. But he found out that if I don't,he triggers. So we decided that I do not have to stop showing him my love. He needs it and so do I from him. It gets very rough at times but I will not run away from him but instead keep working on showing my affection tword him. He know that I am being genuine. He remembers how I used to squirrel away from hugs. It's something I have had to learn..in other words. I didn't grow up with hugging and never was a big hugger but I am now and dang it I love it. I can't stay away from him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Robsia said:


> We are three months exactly since D-day 1 when I found out about PA1 and less than 3 weeks since D-day 2 when I found out about PA2 and ongoing contact with tit-woman.
> 
> It's still very early and raw. I am hoping that he will eventually get it and really start to work with me. I'm hoping that when we get into our MC properly, that will help.
> 
> So far we have had one initial consultation a while ago. Yesterday he had his first one-to-one with her. I should have had mine next Weds but I have a surgical procedure that day so I'm not having mine till the week after. After that hopefully we will start going together, at which point it will be almost 4 months since D-day 1.
> 
> If I waver or get upset or make any indications that I'm not sure, all I get is "Well, divorce me then. You've got the papers. Send them off."
> 
> And yet when he is in his "right mind" for want of a better way of putting it, he swears he wants this, wants to work at it.


Robsia, let me ask you this question. Who wants the relationship more?


----------



## Robsia

^I don't know. That's something I have wondered myself.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> ^I don't know. That's something I have wondered myself.


One thing that I have always believed is that you have to be able to walk away from a relationship. If you are so desperate to save or keep a relationship then you will end up compromising and sacrificing until you as a person no longer exist. While it is true that when people get married two become one there are still two. One cannot be the entirety of a relationship. Two must become one otherwise there is only one. If your spouse is not putting in an appropriate amount of effort then that is when you must pull back and concentrate on yourself. Otherwise you'll keep putting in more and more and more until there is nothing of you left and nothing left to give.


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## Robsia

See, I'm not sure what to think when he says to go ahead and divorce him if I'm not happy.

If thats what he truly feels, then we haven't a hope in hell.

I'm hoping it's just bravado. He's the type of man who'd cut his own nose off rather than show weakness. And showing that he cares about me when he's not sure whether I care about him is, in his mind, showing weakness.

But while hs is busy posturing and showing how little he cares whether I divorce him or not, at the very time when I desperately need him to show me that he loves me, he is destroying our chance at making it work.

And I can't make him see it.


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I know it is Calvin's choice whether or not we divorce and he knows I know this but I will at least do all I can to help him to feel secure with staying with me. I always let him know how much I love and appreciate him. He has told me that me telling him I love him triggers him. But he found out that if I don't,he triggers. So we decided that I do not have to stop showing him my love. He needs it and so do I from him. It gets very rough at times but I will not run away from him but instead keep working on showing my affection tword him. He know that I am being genuine. He remembers how I used to squirrel away from hugs. It's something I have had to learn..in other words. I didn't grow up with hugging and never was a big hugger but I am now and dang it I love it. I can't stay away from him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Divorce??
Nope,I cant see that anymore so don't think it.
If it would have went to the next level then I'm pretty sure I would have.
You saw what a lying POS he was and is,it would have been over in a couple months.
We are alright,sucks to have to go through all that but.....
What can I say?
I'm glad he did'nt get to hurt you.
I'm glad you're safe and with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> See, I'm not sure what to think when he says to go ahead and divorce him if I'm not happy.
> 
> If thats what he truly feels, then we haven't a hope in hell.
> 
> I'm hoping it's just bravado. He's the type of man who'd cut his own nose off rather than show weakness. And showing that he cares about me when he's not sure whether I care about him is, in his mind, showing weakness.
> 
> But while hs is busy posturing and showing how little he cares whether I divorce him or not, at the very time when I desperately need him to show me that he loves me, he is destroying our chance at making it work.
> 
> And I can't make him see it.


I'm guilty of saying I wanted a divorce. Over and over. I just really thought there was NO way that he could still love me nor that we could really have a marriage. How could he ever look at me again without me feeling all the shame and disappointment and hurt? 

It boiled down to trust. I wasn't trustworthy so I had a hard time trusting him.


----------



## hopefulgirl

I love my husband, but I still don't trust him. He says he wasn't in his right mind when he had the affair, but I'm not convinced he's in his right mind YET. Because of his bouncing back and forth so much, I never know which husband I'm dealing with - remorseful man or podperson. 

Yes, it's only been 4 months since D-Day, and he has mental health issues. He was cutting back on his medication - when the EA turned to a PA, he was down to half a pill of the lowest dose he'd ever been on (doc said he could try the low dose, but nothing about cutting the pill in half), and he was taking it every other day (also his decision, not discussed with doc).

I feel like I SHOULD cut him some slack. But his mental health problems provide only part of the explanation for his bad behavior, not an excuse.

I used to be so proud of him. I'm still proud of who he used to be. But now I can't trust the man. I've just got to back off and see if he'll step up and own this as a problem HE'S created.

I came home from work and he's not here; he left no note, so I have no idea where he is, though he moved some things around so I can tell he's been home from work and then left. It HAD been an agreement that he'd let me know where he is. But since the blow up yesterday, all bets are off. Real good for building trust. Oops - there's the garage door opening....


----------



## TCSRedhead

hopefulgirl said:


> I came home from work and he's not here; *he left no note, so I have no idea where he is*, though he moved some things around so I can tell he's been home from work and then left. *It HAD been an agreement that he'd let me know where he is. *But since the blow up yesterday, all bets are off.


Regardless of the infidelity, this is clear and blatant disrespect. 

How do you two deal with situations where one is not being courteous/respectful of the other? 

Are you two in marriage counseling?


----------



## TBT

EI,I just saw on the NYE music thread that today is your birthday! Happy Birthday and wishing you many more!:smthumbup:
"Birthday" by The Beatles FUNNY - YouTube


----------



## CantSitStill

Hopefulgirl, this aggrevates me when you talk about his mental illness as if it's an excuse. As someone with the same problem as him I do not see how that is affecting me doing my part in the marriage. I just don't think it's a good reason to let things he's been doing slide. Maybe I am wrong, it's just my opinion. I have extreme anxiety but refuse to let it ruin my life. Counseling will help tho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Happy Birthday EI . . 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Happy Birthday!


----------



## calvin

Happy Birthday EI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Happy Birthday EI


:birthday:


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Happy birthday, EI!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Happy Birthday EI
> 
> 
> :birthday:


Show off
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

TCSRedhead said:


> Regardless of the infidelity, this is clear and blatant disrespect.
> 
> How do you two deal with situations where one is not being courteous/respectful of the other?
> 
> Are you two in marriage counseling?


I agree; very disrespectful. We have no routine way of dealing with not being respectful, though I often have to remind him about using the f word when speaking to me, and he'll sometimes apologize to me after I point out that he's done it again. But he won't apologize every time. I don't think he's sorry every time.

I've asked him to go to MC more than once; he has refused so far, though left the door open the last time (he said he'd think about it).


----------



## hopefulgirl

CantSitStill said:


> Hopefulgirl, this aggrevates me when you talk about his mental illness as if it's an excuse. As someone with the same problem as him I do not see how that is affecting me doing my part in the marriage. I just don't think it's a good reason to let things he's been doing slide. Maybe I am wrong, it's just my opinion. I have extreme anxiety but refuse to let it ruin my life. Counseling will help tho.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, I don't see it as an excuse but I do see it as a partial explanation for his bad behavior. I try to "enter his world" and understand that he's been suffering, though there were several other factors that entered into his being vulnerable to the affair. NONE of the factors was an excuse. NONE of this, the mental health issues or anything else, excuses the way he is acting now, either. HE is responsible for his behavior, and I know that. But I try to practice compassion without being a doormat. Sometimes it's hard to strike the right balance. 

180 means loving yourself and taking care of yourself but in my case, I don't want to forget that my spouse is, technically speaking, battling an "illness."


----------



## Lebanon Levi

hopefulgirl said:


> CSS, I don't see it as an excuse but I do see it as a partial explanation for his bad behavior. I try to "enter his world" and understand that he's been suffering, though there were several other factors that entered into his being vulnerable to the affair. NONE of the factors was an excuse. NONE of this, the mental health issues or anything else, excuses the way he is acting now, either. HE is responsible for his behavior, and I know that. But I try to practice compassion without being a doormat. Sometimes it's hard to strike the right balance.
> 
> 180 means loving yourself and taking care of yourself but in my case, I don't want to forget that my spouse is, technically speaking, battling an "illness."


Does his illness adversely affect other areas of his life? Like work and friendships? Does he treat his peers and friends badly, or just you? What were some of the other factors? The reason I'm asking is my situation is similar in some ways to yours.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Hg - he's refusing help. In short terms, that's a choice. He's choosing his illness over his marriage.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Lebanon Levi said:


> Does his illness adversely affect other areas of his life? Like work and friendships? Does he treat his peers and friends badly, or just you? What were some of the other factors? The reason I'm asking is my situation is similar in some ways to yours.


Sorry to hear you're dealing with something similar.

At work, he has had some rather vicious exchanges with a couple people there, though I've only heard his side of it, which of course always made it sound like it was provoked. He used to do one group hobby thing with a small team and one of the team members drove him crazy, as did all the (ha!) "cheaters" on other teams who engaged in this particular hobby, which was one of the reasons he dropped that hobby (but still has hundreds of dollars worth of equipment laying around the house).

Some of the other factors include work travel, family history of infidelity, knight in shining armor syndrome, previous financial infidelity (having hidden rather large purchases from me), not being very good at communicating with me about problem areas - either blowing up about them or just not talking about them.


----------



## hopefulgirl

TCSRedhead said:


> Hg - he's refusing help. In short terms, that's a choice. He's choosing his illness over his marriage.


I'm sure he's not aware of that, but he often says he feels like he just wants to run away. Avoid, escape - it's the dysfunctional way he "copes."

When he came home tonight, I asked him if he'd eaten already or would he like me to fix him something. "So you can poison me?" I didn't dignify it with a response, but I waited a minute. Then I just started making something for myself. He finally said something like, "So is this how it's going to be, just quips?" I said it wasn't going to be that way with ME: I said I asked him a straight question but he wouldn't give me a straight answer, so I was going to fix dinner for myself (by then I was already in the process of preparing something for only one person - the consequence of his being rude and disrespectful yet again).

He went and got carry out for himself, which he ate while I ate my dinner, while watching TV. He tried to make some light conversation about some funny position the cat was in (rugsweeping), then he disappeared to play video games the rest of the night. He went to bed without saying good night. I will continue with the 180 and see what he does!


----------



## Robsia

hopefulgirl said:


> I'm sure he's not aware of that, but he often says he feels like he just wants to run away. Avoid, escape - it's the dysfunctional way he "copes."
> 
> When he came home tonight, I asked him if he'd eaten already or would he like me to fix him something. "So you can poison me?" I didn't dignify it with a response, but I waited a minute. Then I just started making something for myself. He finally said something like, "So is this how it's going to be, just quips?" I said it wasn't going to be that way with ME: I said I asked him a straight question but he wouldn't give me a straight answer, so I was going to fix dinner for myself (by then I was already in the process of preparing something for only one person - the consequence of his being rude and disrespectful yet again).
> 
> He went and got carry out for himself, which he ate while I ate my dinner, while watching TV. He tried to make some light conversation about some funny position the cat was in (rugsweeping), then he disappeared to play video games the rest of the night. He went to bed without saying good night. I will continue with the 180 and see what he does!


Yup - that's the kind of thing BigMac would do if he is in a bad mood, except there would be no light conversation, I just wouldn't see him all night.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> I'm sitting here struggling how best to reply to this in a sufficiently concise manner.
> 
> Look, the bottom line is that many years ago she lied and cheated for a period. She has done a lot of heavy lifting since, and in many areas of life I see evidence of what I regard as outstanding character....which doesn't change that she has flaws,some of which make her lesser marriage material. But then, we all have flaws....
> 
> She claims to have told me the truth of the affair. I have no way to verify what she has said. So I either deal with that or leave because I can never 100% coroborate the details . I have chosen to deal with it.
> 
> What matters to me most is that it is in the past. Rugsweeping? Maybe, to a point. But it is not an unwillingness to deal with the issue. It is recognising what I can and cannot have, then making a decision based on my knowledge, and making the best of it.
> 
> If in my shoes you would probably have to leave and go elsewhere I cannot fault that. I considered the same thing. But it is not the choice I made.
> 
> If I left her, I would not trust the next person 100% either. That is just how I think. Probably partly a legacy of her affair...it destroyed my notion of 100% trust. Maybe that is evidence I am a broken human being, or maybe it is proof that I grew up a bit.
> 
> What would you suggest I do different?


Don't get me wrong, Wazza, old fellow, I'm not trying to bust your chops or Mrs. Wazza's, either , for that matter. I'm just interested in the manner in which you seem to have made your decision to R.
For me, it just seems ass-backwards. You made the decision to forgive, and R, before you had any proof that Mrs. Wazza was truly contrite.
It's like giving your checkbook to a person with a gambling addiction, BEFORE, you have any proof that person is cured from the addiction. For me, I need proof first, THEN I will consider allowing limited use of the family funds. See the difference? But as they say, one size does not fit all.
IDK, what I would have done , in your situation, I only know what I did and it seems to have been the right decision for us. Sweetie has jumped through hoops for 2 1/2 years just to reach the point where I even considered R, and is, in every way , a better partner than before. She has always been a hottie, but now she is inside as well as out. LOL


----------



## EI

Hey Reconcilers..... I'll be back very soon to give you all a bit of an update and to see how each of you are progressing. I have just a moment and I wanted to share that B1 and I, along with several members of our family are waiting to watch our youngest son walk down the aisle to receive his high school graduation diploma. It's a very bittersweet moment for me. My heart is so full and I feel so blessed. 

Take care,
~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> Don't get me wrong, Wazza, old fellow, I'm not trying to bust your chops or Mrs. Wazza's, either , for that matter. I'm just interested in the manner in which you seem to have made your decision to R.
> For me, it just seems ass-backwards. You made the decision to forgive, and R, before you had any proof that Mrs. Wazza was truly contrite.
> It's like giving your checkbook to a person with a gambling addiction, BEFORE, you have any proof that person is cured from the addiction. For me, I need proof first, THEN I will consider allowing limited use of the family funds. See the difference? But as they say, one size does not fit all.
> IDK, what I would have done , in your situation, I only know what I did and it seems to have been the right decision for us. Sweetie has jumped through hoops for 2 1/2 years just to reach the point where I even considered R, and is, in every way , a better partner than before. She has always been a hottie, but now she is inside as well as out. LOL


Rookie, I don't remember if you had kids or not, but as fas I remember, Wazzas kids played a part in the decission.


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Don't get me wrong, Wazza, old fellow, I'm not trying to bust your chops or Mrs. Wazza's, either , for that matter. I'm just interested in the manner in which you seem to have made your decision to R.
> For me, it just seems ass-backwards. You made the decision to forgive, and R, before you had any proof that Mrs. Wazza was truly contrite.
> It's like giving your checkbook to a person with a gambling addiction, BEFORE, you have any proof that person is cured from the addiction. For me, I need proof first, THEN I will consider allowing limited use of the family funds. See the difference? But as they say, one size does not fit all.
> IDK, what I would have done , in your situation, I only know what I did and it seems to have been the right decision for us. Sweetie has jumped through hoops for 2 1/2 years just to reach the point where I even considered R, and is, in every way , a better partner than before. She has always been a hottie, but now she is inside as well as out. LOL


For what its worth Rookie, the man I am today would probably react very much as you did when you found out about sweetie's transgressions. However I sense Wazza has a gentler soul than I do and to be honest its something that I am very much trying to add to my character. Trying to smooth out the rough edges so to speak. I've been called intractable and it is probably an apt description. I can't speak to how Wazza was on D-Day but the person I see post on TAM seems to be able to view multiple perspectives at the same time whereas I tend to be someone who makes a fairly quick assessment and sticks to my opinion doggedly. I can certainly see how Wazza would be more likely to take a wait and see posture when it came to his R allowing his fWW to gradually embrace R and work to help him embrace it as well. And for he and his wife this has worked out well. If you or I tried to do that we would probably end up resenting our spouses. That path to R wouldn't work for us I suspect. I think that each couple's method for R is entirely dependent on the individuals involved and their respective personalities. Remember that when EI and B1 started posting here they were given the standard advice. Had B1 chosen to follow this cookie cutter method they probably wouldn't be married right now. Also, take theguy and his wife. She was a serial cheater. Had he adhered to the standard advice on TAM he would have dumped her in a NY minute. Yet he chose another path and they are still married and happy. Every case is different so therefore each R must also be custom fitted to each situation. You and sweetie chose one particular path and it has worked extremely well for the two of you. I would probably choose the same path were I placed in that situation. Others went a different route but it worked for them and they also were successful in their reconciliations. As long as the ultimate goal is achieved it really doesn't matter how you get there.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie, I don't mind you challenging me. It's fair enough. And I don't think I did everything right.

I stayed for the kids, and to be honest it was awfulness a while.

Mrs Wazza is an outstanding person, but she is not perfect...neither am I.

Right now, I have this wife with an amazing degree of fitness for me, a few faults that really but me but we are working on, and the smear of 23 year old lies that can never be undone (I think). Simple choice..what matters to me more..the good we have now or the damage of that lie. The lie is in the past. I will settle for the present.

Not sure what I would do if I has my time over, but that is academic.


----------



## Wazza

bfree said:


> For what its worth Rookie, the man I am today would probably react very much as you did when you found out about sweetie's transgressions. However I sense Wazza has a gentler soul than I do and to be honest its something that I am very much trying to add to my character. Trying to smooth out the rough edges so to speak. I've been called intractable and it is probably an apt description. I can't speak to how Wazza was on D-Day but the person I see post on TAM seems to be able to view multiple perspectives at the same time whereas I tend to be someone who makes a fairly quick assessment and sticks to my opinion doggedly. I can certainly see how Wazza would be more likely to take a wait and see posture when it came to his R allowing his fWW to gradually embrace R and work to help him embrace it as well. And for he and his wife this has worked out well. *If you or I tried to do that we would probably end up resenting our spouses. *That path to R wouldn't work for us I suspect. I think that each couple's method for R is entirely dependent on the individuals involved and their respective personalities. Remember that when EI and B1 started posting here they were given the standard advice. Had B1 chosen to follow this cookie cutter method they probably wouldn't be married right now. Also, take theguy and his wife. She was a serial cheater. Had he adhered to the standard advice on TAM he would have dumped her in a NY minute. Yet he chose another path and they are still married and happy. Every case is different so therefore each R must also be custom fitted to each situation. You and sweetie chose one particular path and it has worked extremely well for the two of you. I would probably choose the same path were I placed in that situation. Others went a different route but it worked for them and they also were successful in their reconciliations. As long as the ultimate goal is achieved it really doesn't matter how you get there.


I resent Mrs Wazza's bad side sometimes.


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia said:


> Yup - that's the kind of thing BigMac would do if he is in a bad mood, except there would be no light conversation, I just wouldn't see him all night.


Like you've said before, are we married to the same man??

:scratchhead:

Cross the pond bookends.


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## russell28

We are having a graduation party for my daughter tomorrow.. both my family and my wifes family, should be awkward as hell.. wish me luck. I'll try to not mention poor role models... I won't drink until they leave. 

I have a new appreciation for when my FIL has to see his exwife with the OM, and the OM is being all sweet (he's a dopey doormat type, perfect for her).. and my FIL is rolling his eyes. OM tries so hard to win him over, as if some day they can be best buddies... so pathetic. I can't stand him if you haven't caught on, for breaking up my girlfriend's family.. yes, I was hurt by them cheating too.. in more ways than I realized.


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## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> Rookie, I don't remember if you had kids or not, but as fas I remember, Wazzas kids played a part in the decission.


My kids are grown, but I don't think that would have made any difference to me. I don't feel that keeping a dis-functional marriage together teaches anything positive to children, especially teenagers. If that was a factor in Wazza's decision, then I would not agree.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> For what its worth Rookie, the man I am today would probably react very much as you did when you found out about sweetie's transgressions. However I sense Wazza has a gentler soul than I do and to be honest its something that I am very much trying to add to my character. Trying to smooth out the rough edges so to speak. I've been called intractable and it is probably an apt description. I can't speak to how Wazza was on D-Day but the person I see post on TAM seems to be able to view multiple perspectives at the same time whereas I tend to be someone who makes a fairly quick assessment and sticks to my opinion doggedly. I can certainly see how Wazza would be more likely to take a wait and see posture when it came to his R allowing his fWW to gradually embrace R and work to help him embrace it as well. And for he and his wife this has worked out well. If you or I tried to do that we would probably end up resenting our spouses. That path to R wouldn't work for us I suspect. I think that each couple's method for R is entirely dependent on the individuals involved and their respective personalities. Remember that when EI and B1 started posting here they were given the standard advice. Had B1 chosen to follow this cookie cutter method they probably wouldn't be married right now. Also, take theguy and his wife. She was a serial cheater. Had he adhered to the standard advice on TAM he would have dumped her in a NY minute. Yet he chose another path and they are still married and happy. Every case is different so therefore each R must also be custom fitted to each situation. You and sweetie chose one particular path and it has worked extremely well for the two of you. I would probably choose the same path were I placed in that situation. Others went a different route but it worked for them and they also were successful in their reconciliations. As long as the ultimate goal is achieved it really doesn't matter how you get there.


AS I said in my post, I understand that "one size does not fit all" and am not criticizing Mr. or Mrs. Wazza, just interested in their respective mind-set. Also, between the time I kicked Sweetie out of the house and our divorce became final, I had plenty of time to re-consider, but made the choice to end the marriage. I cannot and will not be married to a person I can't trust. Since then, Sweetie has proven her love, desire, honesty, and commitment,under the most extreme conditions imaginable.


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## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Rookie, I don't mind you challenging me. It's fair enough. And I don't think I did everything right.
> 
> I stayed for the kids, and to be honest it was awfulness a while.
> 
> Mrs Wazza is an outstanding person, but she is not perfect...neither am I.
> 
> Right now, I have this wife with an amazing degree of fitness for me, a few faults that really but me but we are working on, and the smear of 23 year old lies that can never be undone (I think). Simple choice..what matters to me more..the good we have now or the damage of that lie. The lie is in the past. I will settle for the present.
> 
> Not sure what I would do if I has my time over, but that is academic.


Wazza, I hope that you don't view my posts as any kind of a challenge, nothing could be further from my mind. Your situation is very interesting, to be sure. I don't remember, did your wife engage in a PA, or an EA?


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> AS I said in my post, I understand that "one size does not fit all" and am not criticizing Mr. or Mrs. Wazza, just interested in their respective mind-set. Also, between the time I kicked Sweetie out of the house and our divorce became final, I had plenty of time to re-consider, but made the choice to end the marriage. I cannot and will not be married to a person I can't trust. Since then, Sweetie has proven her love, desire, honesty, and commitment,under the most extreme conditions imaginable.


Yup, totally agree with you. I know me and that's how I'd probably be feeling too. Not to suggest anyone else is wrong for how they approach R but I would have a problem living with someone I couldn't trust. Then again I also have trust issues from my first marriage although I'm feeling much better lately. 

I also agree about staying in a marriage for the children. At least in my case I question how good a father I could be when I know I would be harboring so much resentment.


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## happyman64

calvin said:


> God my typos suck.
> Anyway,I love CSS and even if it takes a lot of time and I struggle with myself
> we are at a much better place.
> It hurts....bad.
> It can also be really good.
> I need to stop fighting myself and let it go,I'm afraid to do that.
> I have no reason not to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin

Stop being afraid. You have shown tremendous courage and conviction with respect to your marriage.

What would Louis do?

HM64


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## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, I hope that you don't view my posts as any kind of a challenge, nothing could be further from my mind. Your situation is very interesting, to be sure. I don't remember, did your wife engage in a PA, or an EA?


Both, though she denies penetration.

I know they spent overnight together at a party where they had too much to drink, and there was sexual activity between them. Hard not to be skeptical.

And no, I don't view your post as a challenge.


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## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> My kids are grown, but I don't think that would have made any difference to me. I don't feel that keeping a dis-functional marriage together teaches anything positive to children, especially teenagers. If that was a factor in Wazza's decision, then I would not agree.


My personal views are far more anti-divorce then average. I don't try to push the, onto others, as they are a product of my religious beliefs, which are a personal thing, but I do try to live by them.

I would argue that separating exposes the kids to heartbreak, financially reduced circumstances and possible danger from step-parent abuse. I would agree that a dysfunctional marriage carries its own baggage.

The win win, if you can do it, is to stay together and rebuild the marriage. This is what I did. If you can't manage that, you just have to do the best you can. As has been notes, one size does not fit all.

There were some lean years but afaik the kids never saw them, and have no idea what Mum did.

A couple of years ago an acquaintance (friend of a friend) went to jail for placing webcams in his teenage stepdaughter's bedroom. I am forever happy that my kids faced no such risk.


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## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Calvin
> 
> Stop being afraid. You have shown tremendous courage and conviction with respect to your marriage.
> 
> What would Louis do?
> 
> HM64


I'm getting there,more than half way now I feel,I dont think about it every day.
The need to ask questions has subsided a lot.
I have other things to do.
I know CSS loves me,she knows what a bonehead she was for doing this.
I can say I know we will be fine,almost there.
Louis would not give up,he still hasnt and neither will I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Wazza's views don't fit the tradition TAM stance on infidelity. He stayed for the kids. Made a lot more compromises than your average BS and the reconciliation was not ideal but he is happy at the place he is now. Once in a while he posts bits and pieces of his story that really makes me think how unfair the situation is to him and how easily his WS got away after what she did to him(Her affair, the lies, she did not commit to R for many years, lied and bad mouthed and lied about him to everyone during the affair, little to no sex). Yet, Wazza sees enough good qualities in her to continue the marriage. He is at peace with his decision to stay in the marriage.

Wazza, did she ever apologize ?


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## warlock07

This was the post that made me start a discussion with Wazza



> As for the article well it's not black and white. Circa 1990 my wife is running around with a toxic crowd, dating and being sexual with another man while I stay home minding young kids, lying to me, saying all sorts of nasty things to my face and about me behind my back, to the point where friends feel compelled to apologise. Taking the money I earned as the sole breadwinner and spending it on clothes that she hides at a friend's place so she can dress nicely for him. Telling me he excites her like I never did. When I propose counselling for us, telling me if I need counselling for my problems go ahead, she doesn't need it. (And then later going to counselling and lying about it). Going to social functions where he will be and engineering it so I can't go. Do I need to go on? Not trying to enter some p1ssing competition here, but giving you some idea of the experiences that shaped my views. I get at least some of what LS is dealing with.


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## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> Wazza's views don't fit the tradition TAM stance on infidelity. He stayed for the kids. Made a lot more compromises than your average BS and the reconciliation was not ideal but he is happy at the place he is now. Once in a while he posts bits and pieces of his story that really makes me think how unfair the situation is to him and how easily his WS got away after what she did to him(Her affair, the lies, she did not commit to R for many years, lied and bad mouthed and lied about him to everyone during the affair, little to no sex). Yet, Wazza sees enough good qualities in her to continue the marriage. He is at peace with his decision to stay in the marriage.
> 
> Wazza, did she ever apologize ?


She apologised often and profusely. I have said many places, including in this thread, that she has demonstrated remorse and done heavy lifting.

See, the trouble here is, TAM boils everything down to a recipe. You follow that you are good, you don't you are bad. Too much groupthink.

Well we didn't have TAM, we didn't have the recipe, so we muddled through and it came out ok. Others follow the recipe and it doesn't. Doesn't that suggest that things simply are not so black and white?

Is my situation unfair? Well...any affair is unfair so in that sense absolutely. But overall I haven't told anyone here my life story, or hers. (And I don't intend to!!!) There are a lot of details you don't have and without them, you cannot fairly judge my story or my wife.

So I will repeat, and assert absolutely, that my wife is an extremely decent and moral woman, though not perfect. You are welcome to question that, and i don't mind discussing it, but I can't defend it without giving sufficient information to risk my anonymity, so ultimately you have to trust me or not.

She is my best friend. The period of the affair, while it leaned in part on some of her faults, was very out of character. If it were not, I would not be with her.

This is not denial. I know what she did (my post on Lifescript's thead, which you quoted, was pretty clear), my eyes are open to her faults, and she does not get a free pass from me. 

Did I make more compromises than the average BS? Based on the stories I have read here, I don't think so. I made some different compromises. More forgiving? Dunno. But forgiveness is important. It's not something to be given thoughtlessly in the case of infidelity, but you can't reconcile without it. 

I don't put my story out there as the acme of how to deal with this stuff. Ther is no perfect way. When infidelity comes into a marriage it sucks mooseballs. It hurt me and it hurt my wife. Deeply. Anyone here who has reconciled gets that.

But I do have 23 years together, and we are happy.


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## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> This was the post that made me start a discussion with Wazza


Note the context of that post was me justifying I knew what it was like to be betrayed. 

Everything in it was true, and there are things every bit as horrible as that, arguably worse, in the stories of others in this thread.

And....we came back from it. We are together and happy.

But we shouldn't be because I didn't follow the TAM rules


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## Wazza

bfree said:


> Yup, totally agree with you. I know me and that's how I'd probably be feeling too. Not to suggest anyone else is wrong for how they approach R but I would have a problem living with someone I couldn't trust. Then again I also have trust issues from my first marriage although I'm feeling much better lately.
> 
> I also agree about staying in a marriage for the children. At least in my case I question how good a father I could be when I know I would be harboring so much resentment.


I have a few trust issues 

You actually illustrate my point. I judge Mrs Wazza to be way more trustworthy than average, but she is not perfect. Affair and all, trading wives would most likely be trading down for me.

One if the things that makes her more trustworthy is she has made the mistake, so she knows it can happen. A lot of WS I speak to thought they were "better than that" until it happened. Someone thinking it couldn't happen to them is a great bug danger sign to me.

I have to live with the knowledge of what my wife did. She has to live with the knowledge that it is part of her. If I really can't stand it any more I can leave the person who did it. She can't.....


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## margrace

Wazza said:


> Note the context of that post was me justifying I knew what it was like to be betrayed.
> 
> Everything in it was true, and there are things every bit as horrible as that, arguably worse, in the stories of others in this thread.
> 
> And....we came back from it. We are together and happy.
> 
> But we shouldn't be because I didn't follow the TAM rules


for me, you have summarized why this thread is so valuable. 

posters here are, for the most part, able to tolerate the idea that there is no 100% always-best response to an A, and that there is no foolproof guaranteed recipe for R. 

what is working for me is EXACTLY what would not work for another person or another couple. what worked for them would not feel genuine for me and/or would have undermined R for us.

in the months that i've been on TAM, i've seen lots of different little pieces of R that different people emphasize. most of us touch on all of them at some point, but different ones seem more pivotal for different people.

for some of us, the emphasis is on the value of saving a relationship or marriage (for the kids or for its own sake). sometimes this represents a long shared history together, sometimes not. for others, it's important to assert what we will and will not put up with. another piece is about the acknowledgement of human failure and redemption and change. and some BSs simply never fell out of love with WS and that has meaning all by itself.

those are only a few.

so glad for the thread.


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## awake1

Its good to read positive stories and they exist in not a small number. Ive found the "tam" recipe effective in my own life and while one size doesnt fit all, its pretty accurate in separating the remorseful from the unrepentant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mintypeas

hello to everyone x i have been catching up with the thread and i was wondering what everyone sees as heavy lifting? i dont know what im looking for as in heavy lifting so i was hoping you lovely people could help me xxx


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## bfree

Wazza said:


> I have a few trust issues
> 
> You actually illustrate my point. I judge Mrs Wazza to be way more trustworthy than average, but she is not perfect. Affair and all, trading wives would most likely be trading down for me.
> 
> One if the things that makes her more trustworthy is she has made the mistake, so she knows it can happen. A lot of WS I speak to thought they were "better than that" until it happened. Someone thinking it couldn't happen to them is a great bug danger sign to me.
> 
> I have to live with the knowledge of what my wife did. She has to live with the knowledge that it is part of her. If I really can't stand it any more I can leave the person who did it. She can't.....


And in Rookie's case he couldn't live with his wife until he saw clear evidence that she had become trustworthy. You were able to stay with your wife until she proved to you that she was trustworthy. I firmly believe that I would tend toward Rookie's feelings and reaction if I were confronted with infidelity today. I don't see as one way being better or anyone being stronger or weaker. Just different ways of approaching the same issue depending on the individual's personality. Remember also that because you could handle staying with your wife it allowed her to work through her issues as well. If I were to try what you did my interactions with my wife would be extremely less than cordial to the point that my wife would probably call it quits and we would divorce. So the only way any marriage I was in could be reconciled is if I were to leave for a while. Of course this is all in theory because I'm not in that situation. Furthermore if my wife were truly remorseful from the get go it is possible I could find a way to work through it with us together. I also have resources like TAM and some close friends that would certainly help me as well. It's why I say that there really is not a one size fits all method for R but there are some facets that are common in all R that must be present for it to be successful.


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## bfree

mintypeas said:


> hello to everyone x i have been catching up with the thread and i was wondering what everyone sees as heavy lifting? i dont know what im looking for as in heavy lifting so i was hoping you lovely people could help me xxx


This is probably a question best answered by those successfully R but to me heavy lifting means doing whatever a BS needs to rebuild trust and work through the feelings from being betrayed. Sometimes the WS doesn't know exactly what the BS needs so different things can be tried to see what works. Or the BS can try to elucidate what it is they need and then its up to the WS to continually provide for those needs. But the WS must try to anticipate the needs of the BS so in order to minimize further pain and avoid triggers.

When I think of the term heavy lifting I think of things like answering all questions without getting defensive, making counseling appointments, changing any aspects of the marriage to address concerns (like changing jobs if the affair occurred at work) etc. If the BS needs for the WS to erase any traces of the affair the WS must diligently work to find and destroy those reminders. Clothing worn with the AP, jewelry, letters or emails (unless the BS insists on keeping them) etc.

Also, the WS must do whatever they can to demonstrate that they understand how they were vulnerable to an affair and that they are working as hard as they can to make sure it will not happen again. To me all these things constitute heavy lifting.


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## Wazza

bfree said:


> If I were to try what you did my interactions with my wife would be extremely less than cordial to the point that my wife would probably call it quits and we would divorce.


I did. The fact that she didn't leave was part of her heavy lifting. I am no saint.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> And in Rookie's case he couldn't live with his wife until he saw clear evidence that she had become trustworthy. You were able to stay with your wife until she proved to you that she was trustworthy. I firmly believe that I would tend toward Rookie's feelings and reaction if I were confronted with infidelity today. I don't see as one way being better or anyone being stronger or weaker. Just different ways of approaching the same issue depending on the individual's personality. Remember also that because you could handle staying with your wife it allowed her to work through her issues as well. If I were to try what you did my interactions with my wife would be extremely less than cordial to the point that my wife would probably call it quits and we would divorce. So the only way any marriage I was in could be reconciled is if I were to leave for a while. Of course this is all in theory because I'm not in that situation. Furthermore if my wife were truly remorseful from the get go it is possible I could find a way to work through it with us together. I also have resources like TAM and some close friends that would certainly help me as well. It's why I say that there really is not a one size fits all method for R but there are some facets that are common in all R that must be present for it to be successful.


I think the difference here is that I was done with her. I fully intended to co-parent (as much as you can when your kids are grown) but had pretty much completely put her behind me. I can even say that I had fallen out of love with her. She was a non-factor. So the amount of heavy lifting she did was enormous, to put it mildly.


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## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> I think the difference here is that I was done with her. I fully intended to co-parent (as much as you can when your kids are grown) but had pretty much completely put her behind me. I can even say that I had fallen out of love with her. She was a non-factor. So the amount of heavy lifting she did was enormous, to put it mildly.


If my kids had been adults at the time a lot would probably have been different. If she does again what she did then, she is history. I make every major life plan on the assumption that my marriage may or may not last, and she knows it.


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## SomedayDig

mintypeas said:


> hello to everyone x i have been catching up with the thread and i was wondering what everyone sees as heavy lifting? i dont know what im looking for as in heavy lifting so i was hoping you lovely people could help me xxx


I have a few examples of "heavy lifting" for you from things that Regret has done and continues to do.

One of the things in the beginning that she did was to never interrupt me when I was talking. I know that sounds like something pretty simple, but if you could only have heard the tone and content of my words, you would know it took what I see has pretty superhuman strength to NOT retort or refute what I was saying. If she felt that I was going on too much, she would merely put out her hand to me...as if she wanted to hold mine. That told me that she was at a breaking point and if I continued to speak that she probably wouldn't be able to "hear" me.

Not having "simple" excuses for sh-t is another thing. If I asked a question, I expected and still expect a proper answer. "I don't remember" does not count at all. Matter of fact, it is worse than an answer in my opinon. Regret said that a LOT in the beginning. She found out quickly that I didn't appreciate it.

Texting/Calling when leaving work without prompting. This goes to show that they are mindful that a betrayed will (in my case at least) be sitting at home wondering when they'll be home. After infidelity has infiltrated a marriage, lost time is totally unacceptable. A spouse should KNOW where their spouse is. Period. There should be a reasonable time frame of when a call or text will be made as well as what time they will be home. This goes both ways for Regret and I now. I texted her from a couple stops on my motorcycle poker run yesterday just to check in and let her know how I was doing. I also texted her when I left so that she would have a reasonable time frame of when I'd be home. It is about respect.

Writing out a time line. This is probably one of the more difficult things for a wayward to do because it is REAL heavy lifting. They are forced to recall times and dates if possible or at least to a reasonable point of the when, where, and what of the affair. This does a few other things really. It puts the affair directly in front of the wayward. There's no backing out now. It also allows the betrayed to see a written account of the affair and helps to "fill in the gaps" so to speak. Also, it is good to refer back to for possible trickle truth. I know I used Regret's and my online journal that we made through Google Drive to go back and ask questions. It was make or break for us last August and that timeline helped solidify for me the Spidey sense tingles I was feeling. I pointed out a few things that didn't "add up" and called her on them.

I wrote a thread last year called the "Archaeologist of Truth". In it I wrote an analogy of what heavy lifting was NOT. To summarize, this is what it said:

A betrayed stood there with a shovel in hand and began to dig. The shovel clinked on something and the betrayed reached down and picked it up to show it to the wayward. She said, "Oh...that..." This went on and on until the betrayed was standing in a very deep hole, covered in dirt and sweat. Up at the top of the hole was the wayward, nice and clean looking down at the betrayed toiling away in the hole. Clink after clink the shovel met little nuggets of truth. In fact ~ the wayward should have been the one in the f'ng hole digging away.


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## mintypeas

thank you bfree and somedaydig for your answers as it was something that was confusing me and you have cleared it up for me. he is doing most of these things apart from writing down the timeline which he is going to do this evening. i think thats a great idea as i saw the shock in his face when he saw the phone records he never realised they had texted and talked so much. i feel im getting to the bottom of this sh!t that has been thrown at me. when dday happened he was actually leaving his job and had been let down on his new job so we have had 2 months of being together 24/7 so we have worked through alot already but im worried when he does go back to work as then i think i will have worries xxx


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## hopefulgirl

mintypeas, so glad to hear he's doing so much of the heavy lifting!! You are well into R. 

:smthumbup:


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## hopefulgirl

Update on the 180: seems to be working, yet again. Since WS decided not to let me know where he was going or when he'd be home after our blow up a few nights ago, I've been doing the same. And I've not been home a lot, except for today: I'm a news junkie so I watch CBS Sunday Morning (my favorite show on TV; feature stories, but so well done) & some of the news shows - it's a ritual for me on Sunday. (Love Fareed Zakaria's GPS show on international issues!)

He's been increasingly friendly, when I've actually been in the house for him to see me; and today he asked me if I'd had lunch yet, and when I said no, he asked me if I'd like to go out with him for lunch. I said I was planning on making myself a grilled cheese sandwhich because I had some laundry to do today, and I asked if he would like me to make him one (I know he likes them) and he said yes. 

Then he asked if I'd like to watch a funny movie with him; he'd already ordered one through cable TV that he had available for the next 24 hours, if I'd be interested (he knows when it comes to movies, I really prefer comedies or musicals). So we started to watch while eating our lunch, but after eating he fell asleep (he was up late playing video games - over 6 hours, but who's counting?).

So I'm living with a friendly roommate as of now. 

Let's see what he does from here....


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## mintypeas

hello hopefulgirl thank you for the lovely message i feel like im getting somewhere. im so sorry that you are going through this but your last post sounds promising how do you feel about doing the 180? i did it for one day and the fear of god was all over his face he really thought that was it. i have not put my whole story on here as there is so much to it and all the lies by both of them to each other confuses the he!l out of me. do you feel the 180 is working for you? xxx


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## B1

Hello all, b1 here and doing well. I just wanted to pop in for a minute and say EI and I are doing well. I have had a fantastic weekend and though there have been a few rough patches over the last couple of weeks overall I am doing better. I will probably continue to stay away from tam for a while longer. This is just best for me and our recovery. I just don't want those that have been following our story to think that my silence means things are bad. On the contrary, things are good and continue to improve. 

EI and I continue to work hard on our R, though working hard seems a bit strong now, it's more like we are adjusting to this new marriage and new life, which is far better than what we had before. Yes, you heard that right. Our marriage is far better than pre-a. I am a changed man, EI is in love with this new man and I am in love with her. Our marriage is thriving. 

No, it's not always easy, we have ups and downs like any marriage and we still have the occasional talk about the A. The year anniversary for our Dday #2 was May 27.
It was a little tough for me and the week or so afterwards. Things are looking much better now. 

I don't expect massive changes over the next year, I feel like things will gradually improve. What is improve? Well, that to me, is not thinking About it and certainly not talking about it. I still don't see this happening over night, I do see it happening over the next year. I think it will slowly fade away. Then the following year fade more. In the meantime we will live life, enjoy life and love one another. Next year we renew our vows on our 30th wedding anniversary. EI already has a new ring and as you know a proposal. This was something she never had before and deserved.

EI is a good person, great mother and a great wife. What she did does not define her as a person, nor does it define her life. She messed up and so did I. What I did by neglecting her and leaving her on her own does not define me, I am no longer that man and EI, well, she is no longer a ws, that's past, it's done and over. I will not neglect her ever again and I know she will never betray me again.

We did make a big ol' mess of things but we are repairing things very well. We will make it, we will survive infidelity, emotional neglect, physical neglect, loss of love , loss of respect, taking your spouse for granted, and broken vows. What was such a messed up marriage, and i mean it was messed up, has truly turned into a thriving, loving marriage.

One more thing,
This thread,which probably helped saved our marriage, is an oasis In a sometimes very hostile environment, please never allow it to turn into anything other than what it is today, A safe place for BS's and WS's to share their stories, discuss their issues and post without being bashed.

Take care All,
B1


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## Acabado

So glad to read your post B1. It realy makes me happy to hear and sense things are really going in this direction. And I love the attitude for the future.
It happens folks. It's possible.

Thanks for the update.


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## hopefulgirl

mintypeas said:


> hello hopefulgirl thank you for the lovely message i feel like im getting somewhere. im so sorry that you are going through this but your last post sounds promising how do you feel about doing the 180? i did it for one day and the fear of god was all over his face he really thought that was it. i have not put my whole story on here as there is so much to it and all the lies by both of them to each other confuses the he!l out of me. do you feel the 180 is working for you? xxx


Thanks so much for asking, mintypeas! I've done the 180 before, and it has worked before, but my WS has some mental health issues. So while it's normal to have ups and downs during R, in our situation it's just all over the place because he's not really someone who "gets it" and then "retains it," because when your brain has "shorts" in the wiring some lessons don't stick while some faulty ones keep flashing on. 

I've come across the term "information processing bias" - he may not be able to perceive information accurately, whether it's things he observes or hears. 

We make progress and then it's as if he suddenly sees me as an enemy and can't think straight, so our talks just go nowhere. He interrupts me and won't let me finish what I'm saying so he won't even hear me out. Who's the hurt party here, me or him? To hear him when he loses it sometimes, you'd think it was HIM!

I may have "kissed and made up" too soon after the last 180. I'm going to keep more distance this time, and set some terms if he wants to try hugging or kissing or have discussions about the kinds of things one might have in a marital relationship. He dropped things back to roommate status - HIS choice - when he decided not to tell me where he was and came home late the day after our blow up. So the 180 on my part was an ideal response to that behavior.

I'm just not going to try to explain to him anymore about why I need to know where he is (that's common decency in any marriage, but he really OWES that to me after his infidelity) or why I need to go over the timeline or other questions about the A. I'm done justifying why I need these things. He won't read Not Just Friends as I asked him to, and he seems to have forgotten what he did read when I gave him a printout of the Newbie info, Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse from this website. If he wants to discuss our problems, he can join me in MC. We'll see if this 180 gets him interested enough in working on being a couple - right now, we're basically roommates (who sleep in the same bed - how weird is THAT?).

He's been increasingly friendly to me, but we have been leading mostly separate lives the last few days. I'm cheerful and he's been pleasant; but he's had diarrhea today - usually a sign that his anxiety is bad, so maybe the 180 has him wondering what's up and what he should do next....


----------



## margrace

Acabado said:


> So glad to read your post B1. It realy makes me happy to hear and sense things are really going in this direction. And I love the attitude for the future.
> It happens folks. It's possible.
> 
> Thanks for the update.


:iagree:

with love and gratitude to you and EI,
mg xxx


----------



## cpacan

I’ve been absent for a while, at least in terms of posting, so I thought I would post a small update.

Things have actually been OK in our household for some time now. We’ve been very busy doing practical things and other stuff that we both enjoy doing. I’ve also witnessed my wife taking responsibility for our financial situation due to past overspending and looking forward to possible unemployment. She used to wear blinders to avoid these issues. It’s been really nice to watch her step up, cooperate in finding solutions, and it has taken some of the burden from my shoulders.

I told my wife about my inability to make future plans for the two of us, as long as I had to concentrate on living in the now, since she couldn’t or wouldn’t provide any safety for me in our relationship. She was sad to hear this because planning for the future is something that is really important to her.

I also told her that since she has never shown any interest in how I manage, feel and think about our situation and my wellbeing, I just assume that she doesn’t care. She opened up a bit, told me that she is insecure herself not knowing what I intend to do in the future. She told me several times that she will definitely never betray me again, or anyone else for that matter, since she doesn’t know if our marriage will survive. She says that she has seen now, how much the infidelity has broken in me, in our family and in our relationship and she doesn’t want to repeat destruction like this again. So she told me that she had decided to change.

This is good to hear of course, and since all change in personality starts with a decision to do so, I guess I should be happy. And I am, sort of… lots of things to be grateful for. It’s just that the last couple of days, I’ve been mentally exhausted, I’ve had this feeling of emptiness inside of me, and it worries me. Maybe it’s just lack of a known or wished for future, or maybe it’s a turning point for me, I don’t know. Or maybe it's like Bfree says; I want something I can't have 

On the next given opportunity, I think I’ll ask her exactly HOW she plans to make the change happen. I believe that you need to take action and DO things to change – it’s not enough to just decide not to cheat again. It’s not enough to make me believe in it anyway.

Thinking about you all. 

B1 and EI, thanks for your contributions on this thread, I know you’ll do just fine (and beyond). It has given me a lot of insight and willingness to learn, grow and see a lot of things differently.


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## mintypeas

hopefulgirl said:


> Thanks so much for asking, mintypeas! I've done the 180 before, and it has worked before, but my WS has some mental health issues. So while it's normal to have ups and downs during R, in our situation it's just all over the place because he's not really someone who "gets it" and then "retains it," because when your brain has "shorts" in the wiring some lessons don't stick while some faulty ones keep flashing on.
> 
> I've come across the term "information processing bias" - he may not be able to perceive information accurately, whether it's things he observes or hears.
> 
> We make progress and then it's as if he suddenly sees me as an enemy and can't think straight, so our talks just go nowhere. He interrupts me and won't let me finish what I'm saying so he won't even hear me out. Who's the hurt party here, me or him? To hear him when he loses it sometimes, you'd think it was HIM!
> 
> I may have "kissed and made up" too soon after the last 180. I'm going to keep more distance this time, and set some terms if he wants to try hugging or kissing or have discussions about the kinds of things one might have in a marital relationship. He dropped things back to roommate status - HIS choice - when he decided not to tell me where he was and came home late the day after our blow up. So the 180 on my part was an ideal response to that behavior.
> 
> I'm just not going to try to explain to him anymore about why I need to know where he is (that's common decency in any marriage, but he really OWES that to me after his infidelity) or why I need to go over the timeline or other questions about the A. I'm done justifying why I need these things. He won't read Not Just Friends as I asked him to, and he seems to have forgotten what he did read when I gave him a printout of the Newbie info, Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse from this website. If he wants to discuss our problems, he can join me in MC. We'll see if this 180 gets him interested enough in working on being a couple - right now, we're basically roommates (who sleep in the same bed - how weird is THAT?).
> 
> He's been increasingly friendly to me, but we have been leading mostly separate lives the last few days. I'm cheerful and he's been pleasant; but he's had diarrhea today - usually a sign that his anxiety is bad, so maybe the 180 has him wondering what's up and what he should do next....


hi hopefulgirl this must be so difficult for you i know how frustrated i get with my fWH when he doesnt understand what i need from him. im sorry i dont know much of your story as i only joined this thread a few weeks ago so i have been reading from the beginning but i will look it up so i can understand what happened with you. i think you are very brave to do the 180 and it seems to be having some affect so i really hope that it does the trick for you. how have you dealt with his mental issues before? i use to suffer with anxiety attacks which i can feel will start again if i dont try to deal with this properly. my fWH has a real problem with showing his feelings but i make him talk about them he has never had to do it before but he feels that now he is starting to open up he says he feels stronger. he was always taught that to keep your emotions under control was a sign of strength but i told him its a sign of weakness as it can destory you which is what nearly happened to us. we never talked we never looked after our marriage but now we will fight for this marriage and no one will get in the way!! xxx


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## mintypeas

ok i have another question and i think its a weird one so need you lovely people to help me. after a month of texting the OW she texted him from a different number and he asked who the number was and the answer was her friend JOHN as she had no credit so he didnt think anything of it but then she asked if it would be ok for her friend to text him. so this friend was always texting my fWH about dramas in his life and to talk about the OW and her dead sister(whoi does not exist). i just want to know does anyone else think this is weird or is this normal? she also asked after 6 months if her brother could text him to talk about his problems as he had just been released from prison. he didnt even know she had a brother!! and the brother only texted from her phone and he never spoke to him. am i reading too much into this that i think this is very strange!! thanks for your help lovely people xxx


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## SomedayDig

At this stage, he has enough drama in his life. He does NOT need to have any contact with anyone associated with the OW at all. Not anyone. YOU are his only priority if he chooses to reconcile properly.

I hope I was clear enough. If not, I will try to clear this up: NO MORE TEXTING TO ANYONE BUT YOU.


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## mintypeas

hello somedaydig thank you for replying. he has not had any contact with anyone since 2 weeks before dday as he caught her out in a lie and questioned her and she became very defensive and he was coming out of the fog before i found out. im asking about stuff that happened while the ea was going on i just find it very strange that these people were brought into it so quickly and so easily to pile their problems on my fWH i hope im making sense xxx


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## SomedayDig

Ohhh...I'm sorry if I was confused there.

Yeah - my honest thought is that the OW was all of those people. She sounds like a real peach of a gal. She was caught lying and all, so to think that she would pretend to be these other people just to talk to him, well that wouldn't be a far fetched thought.


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## mintypeas

SomedayDig said:


> Ohhh...I'm sorry if I was confused there.
> 
> Yeah - my honest thought is that the OW was all of those people. She sounds like a real peach of a gal. She was caught lying and all, so to think that she would pretend to be these other people just to talk to him, well that wouldn't be a far fetched thought.


the friend was a real person he use to ring my fWH a lot I have checked the phone records. the brother was definately not real. when I texted her she made out that it was the brother texting me as she had moved away!! I didn't click until my fWH had read the texts and get saw that it was her!! 
he caught her out in a really stupid lie when she had told him massive lies that he didn't see and she didn't neaaage him for a really couple of dayz but fhen she keot messaging him and he woiuld say he was busy or had no credit so he didn't have to talk to her I know this for a fact as I have the phone records. dday she messaged him in the morning and he told her to f off and turned the phone off. I found out about the ea about8 hours later xx I'm rambling again but I have to get it out xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

The other woman sounds like she will do anything to stay in contact and so she is using these other ways to do so (dig is that called a bunny boiler?) He should have no contact with her or anyone associated with her. Any contact will reinforce the affair in his mind. Think of it this way. There are pathways in his brain that were created when the affair began. Any contact with anyone that reminds him of her will reinitialize those electrical synapses. He needs to be completely NC for those pathways to shrivel up and die.


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## SomedayDig

Bunny boiler - ayyup.


----------



## bfree

cpacan said:


> I’ve been absent for a while, at least in terms of posting, so I thought I would post a small update.
> 
> Things have actually been OK in our household for some time now. We’ve been very busy doing practical things and other stuff that we both enjoy doing. I’ve also witnessed my wife taking responsibility for our financial situation due to past overspending and looking forward to possible unemployment. She used to wear blinders to avoid these issues. It’s been really nice to watch her step up, cooperate in finding solutions, and it has taken some of the burden from my shoulders.
> 
> I told my wife about my inability to make future plans for the two of us, as long as I had to concentrate on living in the now, since she couldn’t or wouldn’t provide any safety for me in our relationship. She was sad to hear this because planning for the future is something that is really important to her.
> 
> I also told her that since she has never shown any interest in how I manage, feel and think about our situation and my wellbeing, I just assume that she doesn’t care. She opened up a bit, told me that she is insecure herself not knowing what I intend to do in the future. She told me several times that she will definitely never betray me again, or anyone else for that matter, since she doesn’t know if our marriage will survive. She says that she has seen now, how much the infidelity has broken in me, in our family and in our relationship and she doesn’t want to repeat destruction like this again. So she told me that she had decided to change.
> 
> This is good to hear of course, and since all change in personality starts with a decision to do so, I guess I should be happy. And I am, sort of… lots of things to be grateful for. It’s just that the last couple of days, I’ve been mentally exhausted, I’ve had this feeling of emptiness inside of me, and it worries me. Maybe it’s just lack of a known or wished for future, or maybe it’s a turning point for me, I don’t know. Or maybe it's like Bfree says; I want something I can't have
> 
> On the next given opportunity, I think I’ll ask her exactly HOW she plans to make the change happen. I believe that you need to take action and DO things to change – it’s not enough to just decide not to cheat again. It’s not enough to make me believe in it anyway.
> 
> Thinking about you all.
> 
> B1 and EI, thanks for your contributions on this thread, I know you’ll do just fine (and beyond). It has given me a lot of insight and willingness to learn, grow and see a lot of things differently.


Good to hear from you cp. It certainly sounds like your wife is starting to understand the magnitude of what she's done. Maybe she is finally getting it. I agree that words are just that...words. But at least she's now saying them. Maybe the actions will soon follow. I would take a wait and see approach and see if she can put actions behind her words on her own. If you ask her what actions she will take she may take that as you not trusting her to follow through. And while I know you have every reason to not trust her maybe you should let her do it herself? Just be ready to give her positive reinforcement if she is doing something you approve of. If your wife is like mine and has a strong will and just a bit of a stubborn streak she will want to work it out herself. If I try to "help" my wife when she is really wanting to do it on her own she will often get very defensive and might get derailed. My advice is that now that she has said the words see if she follows through without any help or prodding from you.


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## mintypeas

hello bfree he has had no contact with anyone for 2 weeks before dday. i just wondered if anyone thought it was weird that she brought other people into it. the brother didnt exist but the friend did and was constantly ringing and texting my fWH with his dramas. so not only did he have all her dramas he had the friends dramas aswell. i must be rambling and not making any sense but this is the first time i have spoken about this stuff to anyone xxx


----------



## bfree

mintypeas said:


> hello bfree he has had no contact with anyone for 2 weeks before dday. i just wondered if anyone thought it was weird that she brought other people into it. the brother didnt exist but the friend did and was constantly ringing and texting my fWH with his dramas. so not only did he have all her dramas he had the friends dramas aswell. i must be rambling and not making any sense but this is the first time i have spoken about this stuff to anyone xxx


Given what you've said about her I don't think its weird in the sense that she was trying to establish as many ties to him as possible. She was weaving a net and the more strings the bigger the net and the harder to get out of it.


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## SomedayDig

Bunny boiler - ayyup.





just bears repeating sometimes.


----------



## hopefulgirl

mintypeas said:


> hello bfree he has had no contact with anyone for 2 weeks before dday. i just wondered if anyone thought it was weird that she brought other people into it. the brother didnt exist but the friend did and was constantly ringing and texting my fWH with his dramas. so not only did he have all her dramas he had the friends dramas aswell. i must be rambling and not making any sense but this is the first time i have spoken about this stuff to anyone xxx


You're making sense, mintypeas! THIS is the place to get this stuff out if you haven't spoken about it to anyone. An affair and all the garbage that can come with it is very upsetting, and of course it made you wonder what the heck was up with her.

If you feel that some of the details of your situation are too private to post here, send a private message to me or any of us who have responded to you on this thread and we will be glad to give you extra support and input (I've done that, and the people from here have been SO helpful to me, I can't even adequately express how much gratitude I feel for what they've done for me).

We're all in this together. Telling your story helps with your healing. Our stories all vary a little (though some aspects can be strangely similar!), but you also get some different perspectives with some wonderfully different insights and ideas. As I'm sure you've noticed, there are some very wise people here - they've replied to me and helped me SO much. 

Keep posting your questions and pieces of your story, or send private messages. We sometimes just post "can you believe THIS one" things to get it off our chests, and that helps in the healing. 

Take care.


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## mintypeas

thank you gentlemen you always make sense!! i agree with what you say bfree about the net. we made a big step last night and talked til the early hours of the morning. i have said to him many times that he had feelings for her because why else risk all he had for just a friend. i told him last night that if he cant admit things to himself then how can he admit things to me if that is the case we may aswell give up now!! but he opened up about his feelings for her and i feel relieved!! but she controlled it all like he could not ring unless she told him to and introducing other people into the ea. he admitted to me last night that he had lost control of the ea that she controlled it all while massging his ego. we have just spoken about last night and he says that it feels we made a big step but it was the hardest night we have had so far. the weird thing is i feel good and that a weight has been lifted. xxx


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## mintypeas

thank you hopefulgirl i totally agree and i feel safe here to talk about his ea. i just feel sometimes its so complicated and i dont want to go on!! and yes i have done the private messages even my fWH messaged someone who helped us so much and im hoping that at some point he will post with me so he can have help too. he reads this thread with me and he reads all my posts as it helps him to see what im stuggling with and we never stop talking. i really admire everyone here for being so brave and so open but also so caring towards everyone else. you have all helped us so much already xxx


----------



## hopefulgirl

cpacan said:


> I’ve been absent for a while, at least in terms of posting, so I thought I would post a small update.
> 
> Things have actually been OK in our household for some time now. We’ve been very busy doing practical things and other stuff that we both enjoy doing. I’ve also witnessed my wife taking responsibility for our financial situation due to past overspending and looking forward to possible unemployment. She used to wear blinders to avoid these issues.


cpacan, I'm glad to hear that things have been OK for awhile. But I get the mental exhaustion. Being betrayed just wears on you. It takes a toll. What happens is that our minds have been working overtime while WS's have been suppressing. A big part of being betrayed is grief (being traumatized, another piece, is no small part) and I know something about grief from my work. We've lost our belief in our partner's trustworthiness, lost the foundation we thought our marriage was built on, lost the whole period of time when the lies were being told, etc. There are other losses, depending on the situation. People who are grieving go through periods of utter exhaustion, so this is normal for us. And they can come in waves, sometimes for no particular reason.

I find it interesting that your wife is starting to take responsibility for overspending; my husband recently had a moment of lucidity about his own excess spending, though I can't say he's fully taken responsibility for it (he wanted to use savings I brought into the marriage to pay off HIS credit card debt - I said no to that idea!).

I like bfree's idea of waiting to see what actions your wife might take to back up her words. I've been in the habit of pushing for conversations. That's partly because I've been (naturally) obsessing about his affair, and it's on my mind and I have a lot I want to talk about! But he doesn't do discussions well. He hears so many things I say - even when I use the gentlest terms possible - as "controlling" or "rubbing his face in it" or any number of negative things. He can put a bad spin on sunshine and rainbows. I think I'm going to hold out to discuss anything of substance until he'll agree to MC. I just don't trust him anymore.

For now, I'm going to keep doing the 180 and watch and wait. See what his BEHAVIOR is. It's getting friendlier the longer I do the 180, so it seems to be working, in terms of resulting in less mean behavior. He has tried to stop spending so much money (he did realize he was overspending, even if he didn't want to pay off the cards himself!) so now he "plays" with all the hobby stuff he's already bought, plus he's back to spending hours playing video games. So I'm doing the waiting thing now myself. It's hard to do that though, isn't it?


----------



## TCSRedhead

hopefulgirl said:


> cpacan, I'm glad to hear that things have been OK for awhile. But I get the mental exhaustion. Being betrayed just wears on you. It takes a toll. What happens is that our minds have been working overtime while WS's have been suppressing. A big part of being betrayed is grief (being traumatized, another piece, is no small part) and I know something about grief from my work. We've lost our belief in our partner's trustworthiness, lost the foundation we thought our marriage was built on, lost the whole period of time when the lies were being told, etc. There are other losses, depending on the situation. People who are grieving go through periods of utter exhaustion, so this is normal for us. And they can come in waves, sometimes for no particular reason.
> 
> I find it interesting that your wife is starting to take responsibility for overspending; my husband recently had a moment of lucidity about his own excess spending, though I can't say he's fully taken responsibility for it (he wanted to use savings I brought into the marriage to pay off HIS credit card debt - I said no to that idea!).
> 
> I like bfree's idea of waiting to see what actions your wife might take to back up her words. I've been in the habit of pushing for conversations. That's partly because I've been (naturally) obsessing about his affair, and it's on my mind and I have a lot I want to talk about! But he doesn't do discussions well. He hears so many things I say - even when I use the gentlest terms possible - as "controlling" or "rubbing his face in it" or any number of negative things. He can put a bad spin on sunshine and rainbows. I think I'm going to hold out to discuss anything of substance until he'll agree to MC. I just don't trust him anymore.
> 
> For now, I'm going to keep doing the 180 and watch and wait. See what his BEHAVIOR is. It's getting friendlier the longer I do the 180, so it seems to be working, in terms of resulting in less mean behavior. He has tried to stop spending so much money (he did realize he was overspending, even if he didn't want to pay off the cards himself!) so now he "plays" with all the hobby stuff he's already bought, plus he's back to spending hours playing video games. So I'm doing the waiting thing now myself. It's hard to do that though, isn't it?


Definitely pay attention to the actions. They reflect true change and remorse (if it's there).

Saying you're controlling indicates he's still very checked out.


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## bfree

hopefulgirl said:


> cpacan, I'm glad to hear that things have been OK for awhile. But I get the mental exhaustion. Being betrayed just wears on you. It takes a toll. What happens is that our minds have been working overtime while WS's have been suppressing. A big part of being betrayed is grief (being traumatized, another piece, is no small part) and I know something about grief from my work. We've lost our belief in our partner's trustworthiness, lost the foundation we thought our marriage was built on, lost the whole period of time when the lies were being told, etc. There are other losses, depending on the situation. People who are grieving go through periods of utter exhaustion, so this is normal for us. And they can come in waves, sometimes for no particular reason.
> 
> I find it interesting that your wife is starting to take responsibility for overspending; my husband recently had a moment of lucidity about his own excess spending, though I can't say he's fully taken responsibility for it (he wanted to use savings I brought into the marriage to pay off HIS credit card debt - I said no to that idea!).
> 
> I like bfree's idea of waiting to see what actions your wife might take to back up her words. I've been in the habit of pushing for conversations. That's partly because I've been (naturally) obsessing about his affair, and it's on my mind and I have a lot I want to talk about! But he doesn't do discussions well. He hears so many things I say - even when I use the gentlest terms possible - as "controlling" or "rubbing his face in it" or any number of negative things. He can put a bad spin on sunshine and rainbows. I think I'm going to hold out to discuss anything of substance until he'll agree to MC. I just don't trust him anymore.
> 
> For now, I'm going to keep doing the 180 and watch and wait. See what his BEHAVIOR is. It's getting friendlier the longer I do the 180, so it seems to be working, in terms of resulting in less mean behavior. He has tried to stop spending so much money (he did realize he was overspending, even if he didn't want to pay off the cards himself!) so now he "plays" with all the hobby stuff he's already bought, plus he's back to spending hours playing video games. So I'm doing the waiting thing now myself. It's hard to do that though, isn't it?


I think backing off for a bit and seeing what happens can be beneficial. If your husband tries to rugsweep then you know he very much is not into the R. But if he starts to put actions behind his words then you can assume that he is trying even if he fails occasionally. At least it would give you an idea as to what he might be thinking and feeling.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Maybe I should give a little history, just to clarify re the remorse issue: my WS HAS demonstrated remorse, especially early on. He was grateful and astonished that I would take him back when the A was revealed, he arranged for STD testing ASAP, and he answered questions - in the first month or so after D-Day. The "fog" worked to my advantage, in a way.

But then, I think the shame started to overwhelm him, truly physiologically, since he has a lot of anxiety and depression going on. He just can't handle looking back at the things he did - he says he's disgusted with himself. It got to where almost every time I wanted to ask questions about the A he would cringe, his foot (the one crossed on top of the one on the floor) would shake, and he would try to get me to finish up, or tell me I'd asked the same thing already or something to that effect. Even if it was something related but NOT exactly the same question, he HEARD it as the same question, and he just couldn't tolerate it. (He told me he even told his counselor he couldn't handle my asking the same question about the A multiple times.)

So I don't think lack of remorse is an issue. Is he pushing it down, doing his best to keep the A out of his consciousness, even as I continue to struggle with it - is THAT an issue? Yes.

Anyway - the 180 is clearly working. He hasn't been feeling well, so I fixed a "comfort food" dinner last night and made enough for two and asked if he'd like some and he said yes; he was very appreciative (he was so tired after work, having had a rough night of coughing - even took a nap when he first came home - it would have been tough for him to go get carryout). 

We watched a funny TV show we both like, and we both laughed in several spots; when it was over, he switched to another funny one he knew I liked. I watched a little of it but I didn't want to be "too available." I asked if he'd like a cup of tea and he said yes so I made it for him then I headed upstairs to get on the computer. He asked, "where are you going?" kind of pathetically (a bit hoarse due to coughing). I cheerfully said "Upstairs." And that was it. To be continued...


----------



## Foreversorry

I just wanted to pop in and say Thank you, and that while I havent read this WHOLE thread, Ive read some of it. Im glad to see the hope is still there for us trying to R and it keeps me positive that hubby and I can work through this together, no matter how long a road it is.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all, I just wanted to stop by and offer a quick update. I apologize for the drama and then silence, but I have needed a break and have just been focused on life at home.

Matt didn't move upstairs after all. He packed some of his things from the first floor - personal items, artwork, etc. but hasn't moved his clothes and has been staying in our room with me after a night apart. We had a good session with Steve Harley, and have been moving forward on our plan, sharing emotional needs and next is love busters.

We've both worked on some projects around the house, and I've decided to repaint/redecorate/rearrange our bedroom, as well as the bathroom to start to give the house a "fresh" feel and hopefully help with some of the negative memories we face.

We had another ultrasound for the pregnancy yesterday, and things are still going well with that. It's hard to fathom what an additional change that will add to our fragile dynamic in September, and I hope we can continue to build better communication and connections between us before then to help us weather it. Our son is starting to understand more about being a "big brother" but is also sort of regressing and wanting to be the "baby" at the same time, so I think we'll have our hands full! 

I am so grateful for all the thoughts, prayers, and words from you. There are so many things I'd like to offer to everyone in return, but I've just needed to step back from this a bit and try to find a way to feel like it is slowly becoming part of my past. That's not to say that I'm not still fully aware of all of the ramifications, issues, and pain we are facing presently and its cause, but just that I am really trying to adopt a more positive mindset towards facing them, and towards rebuilding myself.

TAM is a tricky place, because the support and input here has been invaluable to me, but at the same time, as I continue to be here and read other threads, it can be so discouraging and difficult for me to separate myself and my circumstances from the mass responses.

Please know that I think often of all of you and your journeys, and I am here for anything I can offer. But like so many others lately, it seems like a little time offline and in the real world is helping me more right now.


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## mintypeas

hello mrs mathias its lovely to hear from you xxx i totally understand taking time out from here as others have done lately. this place has been a help so far but im sure at some point im sure i will do the same as others will but we will always check in to see how we all are and even when people are not here they are always in our thoughts xxx


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## mintypeas

hopefulgirl said:


> Maybe I should give a little history, just to clarify re the remorse issue: my WS HAS demonstrated remorse, especially early on. He was grateful and astonished that I would take him back when the A was revealed, he arranged for STD testing ASAP, and he answered questions - in the first month or so after D-Day. The "fog" worked to my advantage, in a way.
> 
> But then, I think the shame started to overwhelm him, truly physiologically, since he has a lot of anxiety and depression going on. He just can't handle looking back at the things he did - he says he's disgusted with himself. It got to where almost every time I wanted to ask questions about the A he would cringe, his foot (the one crossed on top of the one on the floor) would shake, and he would try to get me to finish up, or tell me I'd asked the same thing already or something to that effect. Even if it was something related but NOT exactly the same question, he HEARD it as the same question, and he just couldn't tolerate it. (He told me he even told his counselor he couldn't handle my asking the same question about the A multiple times.)
> 
> So I don't think lack of remorse is an issue. Is he pushing it down, doing his best to keep the A out of his consciousness, even as I continue to struggle with it - is THAT an issue? Yes.
> 
> Anyway - the 180 is clearly working. He hasn't been feeling well, so I fixed a "comfort food" dinner last night and made enough for two and asked if he'd like some and he said yes; he was very appreciative (he was so tired after work, having had a rough night of coughing - even took a nap when he first came home - it would have been tough for him to go get carryout).
> 
> We watched a funny TV show we both like, and we both laughed in several spots; when it was over, he switched to another funny one he knew I liked. I watched a little of it but I didn't want to be "too available." I asked if he'd like a cup of tea and he said yes so I made it for him then I headed upstairs to get on the computer. He asked, "where are you going?" kind of pathetically (a bit hoarse due to coughing). I cheerfully said "Upstairs." And that was it. To be continued...


hello hopefulgirl i can relate to what your saying about the shame and looking back at the A. my fWH is really struggling with the anger he feels towards himself and the shame he feels for what he has done. he use to get annoyed if i asked the same question but in a different way as if i was trying to catch him but then yes i was trying to do exactly that to see if his story changed. the past few days have been hard as i have made him admit things to himself and i have been quite vicious with my words but it makes him stand up and listen to what im actually saying!!

it sounds like you are being successful with the 180 so far and im rooting for you it seems to make them stand up and take notice of you!!! xxx


----------



## hopefulgirl

For some reason, I went back over the phone records today. I had always focused on the midnight texts to 2 different women's numbers (actually, 11:59 and midnight), and the following day's few texts back & forth with one of them, and the over 50 texts back and forth with the other one all through the next day (a work day!). One woman eventually became his EA then PA. (He's had zero contact with the other number since then - someone who used to work with him who had already left their workplace when he texted her that night.)

But I noticed 18 texts earlier in the day of the midnight texts (I had always focused on the day AFTER), so I checked his phone once he went to bed tonight - yep, a woman he works with.  

So it turns out he texted THREE different women over the course of 24 hours on that business trip. Today is like D-Day #3, though I know this third woman and she's got a live-in boyfriend (as did the other one that he's had zero contact with since this 2-day textathon). 

This makes her the first woman he started texting in that 24 hour span; he contacted her during the day, not at midnight, so it's a little less inappropriate and POSSIBLY business-related. Though I doubt it: other times when he's texted her number, it was far fewer times (usually 5 or less). He was trolling for attention from women who were not his wife in those 24 hours. He wouldn't have done any of that if I was around, so it's fairly safe to assume this third contact counts as a third woman with whom he had an inappropriate amount of contact without my knowledge. 

Since I'm doing the 180, I'm not going to confront him about this latest one now. But it's one more item for discussion in the hopper. 

He says he was "not in his right mind" when he cheated on me. I found a text from him to me 4 days after this 24 hour period: "I love you with all my heart." Was he in his right mind then? Or was it my money he loved with all his heart? I had just transferred $2500 to his checking account for a new bike because he'd driven to this business trip because it was an extended one and there was good biking there (he could take the bike and accessories by car), but he crashed his expensive bike beyond repair and had maxed out his credit cards.

I'm feeling less hopeful and more angry tonight. But I'm going to read the 180 tips before I go to bed and stick to the plan. He's got to be held accountable, but the time isn't now because he's not reasonable. The 180, when it works, can bring the tension level down, and maybe THEN we'll see if he's willing and able to do the work that will be required to get into real R.


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## SomedayDig

hopefulgirl said:


> He says he was "not in his right mind" when he cheated on me. I found a text from him to me 4 days after this 24 hour period: "I love you with all my heart." Was he in his right mind then? Or was it my money he loved with all his heart? I had just transferred $2500 to his checking account for a new bike because he'd driven to this business trip because it was an extended one and there was good biking there (he could take the bike and accessories by car), but he crashed his expensive bike beyond repair and had maxed out his credit cards.


HG...this always seems to be his pattern...his MO. It's his only excuse and it is not valid. It's soooo easy to say "I wasn't in my right mind". Hell, I heard that once from Regret and I admit - I laughed in her face. I called her on the bullsnot and told her that wasn't good enough if she wanted things to work out. See, all of this texting and planning and whatnot...yeah, that takes thought. A lot of thought to accomplish. Much like Regret texting the guy while she sat on the couch across from me confirming their hotel hook up. No. She was very much in her right mind and it was a f'd up place to be. So, too...was your husband. Don't let that excuse continue to haunt you. Make him own his sh-t. God knows he's trying to get you to own it for him.




hopefulgirl said:


> I'm feeling less hopeful and more angry tonight. But I'm going to read the 180 tips before I go to bed and stick to the plan. He's got to be held accountable, but the time isn't now because he's not reasonable. The 180, when it works, can bring the tension level down, and maybe THEN we'll see if he's willing and able to do the work that will be required to get into real R.


Stay on the 180 for your own sanity right now. Honestly, I think it's the only thing you really have at this moment. As I usually tell you, I'm sorry to have to say that - and I am...but it is for YOU. Like an IC, I don't give 2 sh-ts about him. I care about YOUR healing. Just remember, do not do the 180 half baked. You either fully commit to it or it doesn't work. He needs the message loud and f'ng clear. HE F'D UP AND YOU AREN'T GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE!!

Only then will any true possibility of reconciliation begin.


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## hopefulgirl

Thanks, Dig. You're absolutely right! I'm feeling stronger today. 

I'm not going to let discovering this additional text object get to me. One more woman to add to the 24 hour textathon list is just one of two probably quite "unavailable for affair" options when he went "fishing" for attention that day; the other one did turn into the OW, and for my own sake I will think of these other two, for now, as "background noise." 

As far as his mental health issues, it's NOT an excuse. That is just crap, and I won't let him pull that one again. It's acceptable only when discussing the list of things that made him vulnerable to an affair. He was not psychotic - completely mentally disconnected from reality - when any of this was going on!!

I will keep reading my copy of the 180 tips whenever I need a booster shot - I will keep at it this time, and won't let up until he's made it abuntantly clear that HE'S the one who screwed up and HE is willing to get to WORK, because I'm tired of doing it for us!! I have several social outings planned, so I have lots to look forward to and people to be with.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

Hello, all y'alls! 

I thought I'd check in to say "goodbye." I have found that I can't concentrate on everything I have ahead of me (both on my own AND with my wife, who I love as much as ever) if I keep looking back. 

I haven't heard from you guys in a while, and I know you are all on your own journeys in reconciliation. I pray for you all, still, and will continue to do so. 

I have embarked on a new project, and that's to finally make my own album, after years of working on everyone else's. I don't want to post the link publicly, but if you PM me, I'll send you a link to my Facebook page where I'm chronicling the process. I'm big into Facebook, so if you want to either become friends there, or "like" my page, that would be just grand. 

My very best to all of you, and God's blessings on your marriages. 

Bobka


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## StarGazer101

hopefulgirl said:


> Thanks, Dig. You're absolutely right! I'm feeling stronger today.
> 
> I'm not going to let discovering this additional text object get to me. One more woman to add to the 24 hour textathon list is just one of two probably quite "unavailable for affair" options when he went "fishing" for attention that day; the other one did turn into the OW, and for my own sake I will think of these other two, for now, as "background noise."
> 
> As far as his mental health issues, it's NOT an excuse. That is just crap, and I won't let him pull that one again. It's acceptable only when discussing the list of things that made him vulnerable to an affair. He was not psychotic - completely mentally disconnected from reality - when any of this was going on!!
> 
> I will keep reading my copy of the 180 tips whenever I need a booster shot - I will keep at it this time, and won't let up until he's made it abuntantly clear that HE'S the one who screwed up and HE is willing to get to WORK, because I'm tired of doing it for us!! I have several social outings planned, so I have lots to look forward to and people to be with.





















HG I literally shouted "Yes!" when I read your post. You sound so much stronger and clearer in your thinking. I think this will ultimately benefit BOTH you and H. Stay strong! :smthumbup:


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## mintypeas

hi hopefulgirl im so sorry you have to go through more but keep up with the 180!! i keep going through the phone records as if i am trying to punish myself again as it is a major trigger!! now i have asked for the phone records to be deleted from my account as i dont want the trigger anymore. how are you dealing not saying anything about this 3rd number hun? xxx


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## calvin

Poping in real quick,the last few days have been pretty good for me and CSS,
real good actually.
We"re trying to limit our time here and focus on eachother more,its working.
Good luck with Your Bruins bfree.
Take care guys.
Go Hawks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foreversorry

calvin said:


> Poping in real quick,the last few days have been pretty good for me and CSS,
> real good actually.
> We"re trying to limit our time here and focus on eachother more,its working.
> Good luck with Your Bruins bfree.
> Take care guys.
> Go Hawks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Good to hear. You and CSS are one of the couples that keep me having hope that my BS and I will hopefully make it through.


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## calvin

Foreversorry said:


> Good to hear. You and CSS are one of the couples that keep me having hope that my BS and I will hopefully make it through.


There's hope.
I does happen,plenty of stuggles here that are becoming success stories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

It takes effort and I must admit, a lot of bad days before you see a glitter of sunshine..ok I wanna rephrase that. The first month is crazy because it's when you get all the answers of the A which isn't easy but it's also kinda like a honeymoon phase of hysterical bonding, then after that it's about 8 -9-10-12-13 months of hell. After that there are a few good days and eventually about a year and a half later you will have more good days and not as many bad days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

mintypeas said:


> hi hopefulgirl im so sorry you have to go through more but keep up with the 180!! i keep going through the phone records as if i am trying to punish myself again as it is a major trigger!! now i have asked for the phone records to be deleted from my account as i dont want the trigger anymore. how are you dealing not saying anything about this 3rd number hun? xxx


I'm doing really well, thanks mintypeas!! I know the 180 involves minimal relationship talk, so saying anything about this discovery would not be in keeping with the program and I'm workin' it, girl!! :smthumbup:

This is about taking care of ME, so that's my focus now. I'm not home very much, so we interact very little. He's definitely curious! He got home after work and he texted me asking how long one of the cats had been locked in the basement (due to a recent litter box problem, she's not allowed the run of the house when nobody's home). I replied 8 am. I wasn't gone from home since 8, but I didn't let on (I just put her down there then because I wasn't going to be able to keep an eye on her while I did some housework and got ready to leave). He texted "where are you?" and I just texted the name of the road I was on, since I was on my way home. NO info about where I'd been all day!!  

Since I had a day off, I'd done lunch with a friend and some window shopping, then sat in my car to take a long call from another friend - I was in no rush to get home!! I have other socializing plans this week too. Feeling better every day.


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## daisygirl 41

I saw the exOW at my work place again yesterday. H warned me that she was going to be there but that was it. 

He didn't mention it last night. Didn't ask if I was ok. Nothing. In fact he never mentions anything at all. Any thoughts?


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> I saw the exOW at my work place again yesterday. H warned me that she was going to be there but that was it.
> 
> He didn't mention it last night. Didn't ask if I was ok. Nothing. In fact he never mentions anything at all. Any thoughts?


He's evading. Trying to avoid dealing with it. He probably figures that you triggered but rather than be proactive and address it he'd rather let you deal with it on your own or wait for you to bring it up. Not a good response imo.


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## Robsia

Just popping in to say hi. Since our upset last week things have been pretty good. We had a good date night on Saturday and even though he was out of town Mon and Tues as usual, I managed not to freak out.

I had my sterilisation yesterday and he has been generally wonderful, looking after me and the kids and walking the dog, basically waiting on me.

The GA has hit me pretty hard - I've had them before but never this bad. It's been 24 hrs and still feeling very wobbly and dizzy. I'm okay till I stand up - lol.

I've never been very good at being helped so it feels really odd to sit around being all pathetic and asking him to do stuff for me. But when I get up and try to do things myself I go dizzy so best not to I think.


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## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> I saw the exOW at my work place again yesterday. H warned me that she was going to be there but that was it.
> 
> He didn't mention it last night. Didn't ask if I was ok. Nothing. In fact he never mentions anything at all. Any thoughts?


*hey dg:* i think i might have mentioned this to you before, so forgive me if so -- your H reminds me of mine when he had still not come completely clean about the As. this doesn't mean that i think that your H is still _doing_ anything that he shouldn't be. i just have an uncomfortable vibe on your behalf and and i can't quite put my finger on it.

*hi bobka!* so good to hear from you. sounds like things are going well.

*my update: *

i'm in a place that i remember others of you describing: R is really good but i still have a terrible day once in a while. yesterday was one of those.

our MC had a big impact on me this week. at some point during it, H mentioned that he knows that i am still very angry, although i don't often express it. he hears it come out when i say certain words, and he thinks that i hold it back in part to protect him. i agreed to all this. what's the point, i said, when i know that he already understands, and is already being transparent, and is already working as hard as any remorseful person can work? isn't that just rubbing his nose in it?

my H said, i think that it's hurting you to hold it in. i want us to do what _you_ need to do for your healing. our MC said, margrace, could you talk about your anger now? so i did. both of them listened and supported me.

painful. makes me tear up now just thinking about it. but there was something powerful about the fact that my H spontaneously *invited this*. so...i guess he really _does _understand and care? it's not an act? he hasn't just upped his game? maybe i can really _believe_....?

then yesterday it all kind of came crashing down. triggered by a little semi-nothing. i fanned the flame and allowed it to turn into a big something. omg, i thought about it all day, i obsessed, i panicked, i apartment-hunted online, it was terrible, etc. i had imaginary conversations with H about it in my head in which he did not understand my feelings.

when i saw H that evening, and told him about it, he did understand _immediately._ he said, you should have called me right away this morning and we could have talked about it.

and that's exactly right. i should have.


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## SomedayDig

That is one terrific update margrace!


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> That is one terrific update margrace!


I agree. Huge progress.


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## daisygirl 41

MG
I know I don't know all the facts about the A and to be honest I'm kinda ok with what I know.
My H has serious avoidance issues about everything, not just the A. He really is a bury your head in the sand type of guy. Just pretend its not happening and all that.
We have had a rough couple of weeks to be honest. Last weekend I felt we had turned a corner and we were getting closer again, today I just feel a million miles away from him again.
I know I just need to take it a day at a time. He's told me he's not going anywhere and he loves me but I so wish he would open up to me more or just say 'I know you've had a tough day' and hug me. Instead he shuts down, he doesn't want to be reminded that I hurt everyday. To be honest, I don't blame him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

Here's my R update..

A couple months from dday, a month or so into R.. wife is doing all she can, if I go to the thread about WS and what they should do, she's been doing it all.. everything on the list, and then some. I'm guessing she's done research, read something.. perhaps that thread, but I don't care how she found out to do these things.. she's making the effort, and saying and doing all the right things. The honesty hurts, but it's refreshing to know she's sharing intimate details of things that can't be proven, just to tell me the truth and not lie. I let her know how important that is to me.. how I know it's hard for her to talk about stuff that hurts me, but after I get angry and process it, I can let it go and feel good that she shared it with me and didn't try to candy coat it or feed me bull... Her remorse is very sincere.. I feel bad when reading these forums that others WS' can't just own what they've done and do what they need to do. I feel lucky in that sense.

Cookout sucked on Saturday.. started out okay, but I had a few beers and ended up letting little things bother me that shouldn't, it was a trigger fest.. I had to leave the party and go lay down... wife came up and comforted me, but it was tough just because her mother and husband(om) was there with my FIL, always awkward, and her aunt (another cheater role model of hers), was there and extra loud and annoying... I could tell she was having a tough time too, just too soon for a party (had to do it for my daughter, BS in nursing, pretty big accomplishment to ignore).. 

I've been having good days mostly so far, and bad moments.. some bad days.. but for the most part, I'm starting to want to play video games again.. can watch TV again, I try to divert any bad thoughts to positive ones. I refuse to let this thing break me, and consider myself fortunate that I still have a chance to save my marriage. I'm afraid of all this 'six month' talk... I'm wondering what horrible things are going to happen. I keep hearing how things get worse before they get better.. I hope that isn't the case, I was hoping for three steps forward one step back to be a continuing trend, I don't want to hit any five steps back or anything like that. If anyone could share what and why I can expect hell in sixish months, please warn me of what to expect so I can try to avoid it. 

Edit: Go Bruins.


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## SomedayDig

Russell, I'm glad to hear your wife is doing the work she should be. That is always great to hear!!

Don't focus on the 6 month thing. Why? Cuz it's best to just let things unfold whichever way they will. It could happen in month 5 or month 7. Hell...it might happen in 5, 6 AND 7. But that isn't the focus.

The focus is that it is all normal.

Ya hearing me there, bro? It's ALL normal. 

Look at what so many others here have written regarding the 6 month and 1 year thing. It hurts. It's simple as that, man. There's no magic pill that is gonna make it any easier. There's no prep you can do to get ready for it.

Let it happen. Let your wife know it's gonna happen.

Oh, and you might feel like apologizing for it, and I dig that. I apologized. Just don't feel like you HAVE to apologize. After all...you didn't create this sh-t storm.


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## russell28

SomedayDig said:


> Russell, I'm glad to hear your wife is doing the work she should be. That is always great to hear!!
> 
> Don't focus on the 6 month thing. Why? Cuz it's best to just let things unfold whichever way they will. It could happen in month 5 or month 7. Hell...it might happen in 5, 6 AND 7. But that isn't the focus.
> 
> The focus is that it is all normal.
> 
> Ya hearing me there, bro? It's ALL normal.
> 
> Look at what so many others here have written regarding the 6 month and 1 year thing. It hurts. It's simple as that, man. There's no magic pill that is gonna make it any easier. There's no prep you can do to get ready for it.
> 
> Let it happen. Let your wife know it's gonna happen.
> 
> Oh, and you might feel like apologizing for it, and I dig that. I apologized. Just don't feel like you HAVE to apologize. After all...you didn't create this sh-t storm.


Aplogizing for WHAT? OMG, now I'm really worried... 'six months' turned up too many threads with too many pages to read... Am I going to break stuff? Throw away more furniture? 

I'm hoping I'm on an accelerated schedule since I'm not getting TT'd or blameshifted, perhaps month 4 for us? I'd like to mark it on the calendar "dad is going to freak out".. how many days/weeks should I block out?


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## cpacan

russell28 said:


> Aplogizing for WHAT? OMG, now I'm really worried... 'six months' turned up too many threads with too many pages to read... Am I going to break stuff? Throw away more furniture?
> 
> I'm hoping I'm on an accelerated schedule since I'm not getting TT'd or blameshifted, perhaps month 4 for us? I'd like to mark it on the calendar "dad is going to freak out".. how many days/weeks should I block out?


Take a 2013 calendar, mark a bunch of days, totally random. Then, see if you can get calendars for 2014 and 15 while you're at it - do the same with fewer and maybe smaller marks.

Just let it unfold and handle stuff when it appears - you can't prepare in any way. For me, months 9 to 13 were extremely difficult. It all depends on the individuals involved.

But nice to see your humor hasn't been damaged


----------



## SomedayDig

LOL. You better not break any furniture! 

I hoped I was on the accelerated schedule too, man. Hell, I would almost say most people who were on this thread last summer thought the same.

Til I got the rest of the trickle truth 8/30 and it played out right in this thread.

Mark the calendar "Dad _might_ freak out" through like...well, Thanksgiving 

Then, concentrate on how much you love your wife and let life happen.


----------



## cpacan

Margrace; what's wrong with you?? You write posts to which I can't figure out if I'm gonna smile or cry... untill I remember that big boys don't cry 

No, seriously - if I wasn't such a selfless person, I would envy you. It looks as if you're going to have a more safe environment, it should make it easier for you to heal. Looks like your husband is about to get it, but of course you never know, and the doubt will probably stay for a while.

Just remember to enjoy the days where things feels good - I dare to say, you deserve it.


----------



## mintypeas

hopefulgirl said:


> I'm doing really well, thanks mintypeas!! I know the 180 involves minimal relationship talk, so saying anything about this discovery would not be in keeping with the program and I'm workin' it, girl!! :smthumbup:
> 
> This is about taking care of ME, so that's my focus now. I'm not home very much, so we interact very little. He's definitely curious! He got home after work and he texted me asking how long one of the cats had been locked in the basement (due to a recent litter box problem, she's not allowed the run of the house when nobody's home). I replied 8 am. I wasn't gone from home since 8, but I didn't let on (I just put her down there then because I wasn't going to be able to keep an eye on her while I did some housework and got ready to leave). He texted "where are you?" and I just texted the name of the road I was on, since I was on my way home. NO info about where I'd been all day!!
> 
> Since I had a day off, I'd done lunch with a friend and some window shopping, then sat in my car to take a long call from another friend - I was in no rush to get home!! I have other socializing plans this week too. Feeling better every day.


all i can say hopefulgirl is YOU GO GIRL!! you really are being so strong and he can see it!! and i think that scares him. we are strong all of us for doing r as we have a choice and we are the ones that control the situation now and we are the made the choice to r not the ws. i use to think i was weak for allowing him to stay but i realise now with you wonderful people that i am strong as i know if i made the choice to d then i would be absolutely fine i have done it before i can do it again!! and he knows that i can survive on my own so he is doing everything to make sure i dont make that choice!! xxx


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Russell28,

I think what Dig and the others are getting at is the anger phase. Strike that. Anger is a part of the entire thing from the first moments of DDay. 

I think we are referring to the "rage" phase. I truly think that most BS go through a period where the anger they have been experiencing, and frequently holding in to allow a more successfull R, starts to bubble over as an almost uncontrollable rage. 

I hit my rage boiling point closer to the one year mark. I didn't know it was coming, and certianly didn't really understand it as it was happening. All I know is that I was full of venom and was spitting it at my wife with vengeance. Allowing my mind to purposely wander and focus on painful memories, mind movies and triggers; and then coming home to say really hurtful things. I found myself saying things with the specific purpose of hurting my wife as much as possible. Not good. Not productive. Not a part of R.

My wife took the barrages, and kept asking what was really wrong? What was behind this change in behavior? She never got defensive, never fired back. She showed incredible strength and patience through this period of a few weeks. 

The turning point for me was finally forcing myself to dig into what my motivation was behind my desire to say these hurtful things. I started to realize that i had an almost subconscious need to punish my wife, to make her suffer. To extract my pound of flesh for all that she had done to crush me with her affair. 

And I think in many ways, I was pressure testing her commitment to the R and me. Seeing if she would run for the hills when the going got tough. 

And when I dug deeper, I discovered that the true root of this rage and desire to punish was my own fear. Fear of things getting better and in knowing i was beginning to invest more of myself back into the relationship. The idea of becoming more vulnerable to the one exact person who had hurt me so much worse than anyone else on this planet scared the $hit out of me!

But in that knowledge of my true motivation, I found power. the power to ask myself, "do I want to stop the R? Have things changed with us in recent weeks? Do I have any reason to think she is cheating now?". The answer to all of these were no. So I realized that I had to step through my fear and take what I wanted - a successful R with a remorseful wife who wanted the same. 

People talk about moving past being the victim to become a survivor. This was the exact moment that it happened for me. 

Whenever a BS says they feel helpless and out of control with their emotions, I always push them to dig and understand the drivers beneath the emotions. Once you understand the true motivation for feeling the way you do, you can regain control.

So my advice to you would be to go in with eyes open. And talk to your wife about this as a likely stage, and ask her to be patient with you if it comes. To not fire back or get defensive. To be patient with you on this journey.


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## cpacan

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> And when I dug deeper, I discovered that the true root of this rage and desire to punish was my own fear. Fear of things getting better and in knowing i was beginning to invest more of myself back into the relationship. The idea of becoming more vulnerable to the one exact person who had hurt me so much worse than anyone else on this planet scared the $hit out of me!


As always a wise and thoughtful post from you - I especially like this peace, which might be where I am at right now, except for the desire to punish, I don't have that , but the fear, yes. Thanks.


----------



## russell28

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Russell28,
> 
> I think what Dig and the others are getting at is the anger phase. Strike that. Anger is a part of the entire thing from the first moments of DDay.
> 
> I think we are referring to the "rage" phase. I truly think that most BS go through a period where the anger they have been experiencing, and frequently holding in to allow a more successfull R, starts to bubble over as an almost uncontrollable rage.
> 
> I hit my rage boiling point closer to the one year mark. I didn't know it was coming, and certianly didn't really understand it as it was happening. All I know is that I was full of venom and was spitting it at my wife with vengeance. Allowing my mind to purposely wander and focus on painful memories, mind movies and triggers; and then coming home to say really hurtful things. I found myself saying things with the specific purpose of hurting my wife as much as possible. Not good. Not productive. Not a part of R.
> 
> My wife took the barrages, and kept asking what was really wrong? What was behind this change in behavior? She never got defensive, never fired back. She showed incredible strength and patience through this period of a few weeks.
> 
> The turning point for me was finally forcing myself to dig into what my motivation was behind my desire to say these hurtful things. I started to realize that i had an almost subconscious need to punish my wife, to make her suffer. To extract my pound of flesh for all that she had done to crush me with her affair.
> 
> And I think in many ways, I was pressure testing her commitment to the R and me. Seeing if she would run for the hills when the going got tough.
> 
> And when I dug deeper, I discovered that the true root of this rage and desire to punish was my own fear. Fear of things getting better and in knowing i was beginning to invest more of myself back into the relationship. The idea of becoming more vulnerable to the one exact person who had hurt me so much worse than anyone else on this planet scared the $hit out of me!
> 
> But in that knowledge of my true motivation, I found power. the power to ask myself, "do I want to stop the R? Have things changed with us in recent weeks? Do I have any reason to think she is cheating now?". The answer to all of these were no. So I realized that I had to step through my fear and take what I wanted - a successful R with a remorseful wife who wanted the same.
> 
> People talk about moving past being the victim to become a survivor. This was the exact moment that it happened for me.
> 
> Whenever a BS says they feel helpless and out of control with their emotions, I always push them to dig and understand the drivers beneath the emotions. Once you understand the true motivation for feeling the way you do, you can regain control.
> 
> So my advice to you would be to go in with eyes open. And talk to your wife about this as a likely stage, and ask her to be patient with you if it comes. To not fire back or get defensive. To be patient with you on this journey.


Thank you for going into detail about your experience, I will take your advice and keep my eyes open wide.


"I hate this place. It gives me comfort." 
-SomedayDig


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## margrace

cpacan said:


> Margrace; what's wrong with you?? You write posts to which I can't figure out if I'm gonna smile or cry... untill I remember that big boys don't cry
> 
> No, seriously - if I wasn't such a selfless person, I would envy you. It looks as if you're going to have a more safe environment, it should make it easier for you to heal. Looks like your husband is about to get it, but of course you never know, and the doubt will probably stay for a while.
> 
> Just remember to enjoy the days where things feels good - I dare to say, you deserve it.



:lol: yes i don't know whether to laugh or cry lots of times myself!

thanks to you and others for your good thoughts. you're so right, cpacan, about enjoying the days when things feel good!


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## SomedayDig

My internet is down cuz of the crap rain in NY right now. Hard to read the small screen...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Wow, Neverhappen. You just described it perfectly. I remember Calvin admitting to our therapist that he felt this need to make me feel the pain and in a way punish me. It was always after having real good days in a row. Then that fear of really trusting me kicks in and so it's like a way to protect yourself from it everhappening again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

margrace, I'm so sorry about your difficult day, but so glad to hear your husband "gets it" about your anger. I've posted before about how much of what we go through is due to grief (of course, mixed with trauma). Grief has a way of welling up and slamming you when you least expect it. People often think there has to be an anniversary or some obvious trigger - that's often the case, but very often there IS no obvious reason for grief to well up, and it can come in very strong waves for no apparent reason. Our losses from betrayal are many and varied, and grief doesn't end because our losses are profound - the sting may soften over time and the frequency of these surprise attacks may lessen, but we are entitled to our grief and the intense feelings and sometimes wild thoughts that may come along with it.


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## hopefulgirl

daisygirl 41 said:


> MG
> I know I don't know all the facts about the A and to be honest I'm kinda ok with what I know.
> My H has serious avoidance issues about everything, not just the A. He really is a bury your head in the sand type of guy. Just pretend its not happening and all that.
> We have had a rough couple of weeks to be honest. Last weekend I felt we had turned a corner and we were getting closer again, today I just feel a million miles away from him again.
> I know I just need to take it a day at a time. He's told me he's not going anywhere and he loves me but I so wish he would open up to me more or just say 'I know you've had a tough day' and hug me. Instead he shuts down, he doesn't want to be reminded that I hurt everyday. To be honest, I don't blame him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MY WS has serious avoidance issues, too DG!! I wonder how many affairs have come about at least in part because of spouses who had problems communicating/facing tough issues so instead of dealing head on with difficult things, they went and cheated on their spouses, in LaLa Land where they don't have to deal with difficult truths?

:corkysm60:


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## CantSitStill

I agree hopeful. I ask myself all the time why I didn't just deal with our issues. Instead I avoided conflict, ran away from it. Wish I could turn back time and do things differently, but now I can deal with issues head on. No more avoiding things that bother me or him. No more resentment. Never will I let things get to where we are both miserable. It's never too late to change. Thank God Calvin is giving me this chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

Some issues are easier to deal with than others.......

Sometimes all you can do is accept each other's position. That can be true of many fundamental things where there is no right way..money, sex, keeping the house clean.....

Marriage is a master class in relationships. You can't succeed without compromise, even when sometimes the things you are compromising on might be central to you.

The payoff can be well worth is, but it isn't always easy.


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## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Some issues are easier to deal with than others.......
> 
> Sometimes all you can do is accept each other's position. That can be true of many fundamental things where there is no right way..money, sex, keeping the house clean.....
> 
> Marriage is a master class in relationships. You can't succeed without compromise, even when sometimes the things you are compromising on might be central to you.
> 
> The payoff can be well worth is, but it isn't always easy.


Sorry, Wazza, but I disagree. Nobody HAS to accept anything that is against their principles, and no marriage is worth that kind of moral compromise. That would be akin to making the BS an accessory to the affair. Which is manifestly untrue and unfair.. If you HAVE to compromise your core beliefs, then you need to D.


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## cpacan

Maybe I should change my name and call myself Mr. Gray 

Rookie, I agree with you that it's important to have core beliefs and stick to them as long as it makes sense. At the same time, I believe (core belief) that all people are entitled to have their own core beliefs as well.

When different core beliefs meet, certain dynamics come into play and you need to find a solution, the best possible solution that you can live with within you core beliefs. Or you may consider to twist your core belief a bit.

If you can't compromise, what do you do when two of your own core beliefs conflict? If you can't compromise you'll become a schizofren person.

Or compartmentalize.... a very known theme on this board, I believe.

I know for certain that since infidlity hit me, I have changed a lot of the things I once believed.


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## Rookie4

Cpacan, I don't want to give the impression that I am against compromise in marriage. I compromise with Sweetie all of the time, and other Married people do it all of the time, for various reasons, though not usually about core morals. I respect Wazza , but I feel that possibly he was too accomodating to his WW and should have taken a firmer line. I think he has compromised himself enough.


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## daisygirl 41

I asked for some advice or comments about 3 pages ago.
I only had one response.
I have no one else to ask.
I feel like even on here I'm only wanted if I'm positive and upbeat.
Just like real life!
**** it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> I asked for some advice or comments about 3 pages ago.
> I only had one response.
> I have no one else to ask.
> I feel like even on here I'm only wanted if I'm positive and upbeat.
> Just like real life!
> **** it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Was it about your husband's reaction to you seeing the xOW? If you posted again I must have missed it. Please ask again DG.


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## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> I asked for some advice or comments about 3 pages ago.
> I only had one response.
> I have no one else to ask.
> I feel like even on here I'm only wanted if I'm positive and upbeat.
> Just like real life!
> **** it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry DG, I need to understand better what bothers you (besides all of it of course).

Is it that he didn't mention her appearance sooner? Or more generally that he isn't communicative about your relationship?
Other?


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## StarGazer101

daisygirl 41 said:


> I asked for some advice or comments about 3 pages ago.
> I only had one response.
> I have no one else to ask.
> I feel like even on here I'm only wanted if I'm positive and upbeat.
> Just like real life!
> **** it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG I'm sorry you feel like that. I didn't comment because I had no advice to give. We suffer from the same problem - H avoids talking about stuff whenever he possibly can. It hurts me greatly and it damages any progress towards real R - he KNOWS this and continues to do it. I talk about this - he listens and continues to avoid ....... I have not yet found a way to solve this.

For what it's worth I sympathise and empathise greatly.

..... I also think that whilst you have added value to this thread by being positive and upbeat, what I have appreciated most is your courage and honesty and strength of character in the face of horrible odds. I think if that's what people appreciate you for in RL then you are greatly valued indeed.

I think it must be a dark day for you so .......


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## hopefulgirl

"Originally Posted by daisygirl 41 

I saw the exOW at my work place again yesterday. H warned me that she was going to be there but that was it. 

He didn't mention it last night. Didn't ask if I was ok. Nothing. In fact he never mentions anything at all. Any thoughts? 

bfree: 

He's evading. Trying to avoid dealing with it. He probably figures that you triggered but rather than be proactive and address it he'd rather let you deal with it on your own or wait for you to bring it up. Not a good response imo."

daisygirl, EI and margrace liked bfree's response so there were actually 3 people who replied; they agreed with what bfree said. Sometimes someone's response is so spot on, you feel you just can't add anything or say it better. 

I'm SO sorry you feel you didn't get the kind of response you were looking for, but I thought bfree really summed it up and said it well in very few words (as he often does). I thought about it and didn't think I could add anything, but I didn't think to like his comment, which I should have. He nailed it.

And I commiserated with you more recently on the avoidance tendencies of our WS's. So please don't feel that you only have to be upbeat to post!! Bring your questions and unhappiness here - we ALL do! 

It sounds like you're having a bad day, and boy do I know what THAT feels like.  I've had too many of those in the last 4 and a half months to count. Being betrayed sucks. Is there some more specific guidance you were looking for? Can you elaborate maybe and we could try to be of more help?


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## bfree

DG,

I'm assuming that your husband's non response was what you were looking for advice about. If it's something else please let us know.

I think you need to sit down with your husband and really let him know how hurt you are when he doesn't step up when you need him to. He is the one that betrayed you so he needs to be more proactive in the future. If he still refuses then you need to show him with actions that you are upset. If I am correct the reason he eventually came back to you was that you started to use the 180 and detach from him. Maybe it's possible that he responds to you pulling back and that could be a more action oriented way of showing him how hurt you are when he lets you down.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Sorry everyone.
I'm struggling and am taking it out on the wrong people.
Bfree- spot on as usual.
He's just not stepping up at the moment and I feel like giving up.
15 months in and it still hurts like hell.
Apologies
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Honestly, after I read Margrace's response to you and then you replied with exactly what I would've said - I felt you understood what happened.

I like what you just said though, "I'm struggling and am taking it out on the wrong people."

That is good and open honesty. I like that a lot


----------



## Robsia

dg41 - you don't need to apologise. Sometimes I feel I only post when I need advice and I don't always have any advice to give anyone else. Certainly for the last couple of days I've been in a post-general anaesthetic daze so I haven't been much help to anyone.

Do you feel like it's a game - that he should be the one to bring it up first rather than you? Why don't you just tell him how you feel?


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, Wazza, but I disagree. Nobody HAS to accept anything that is against their principles, and no marriage is worth that kind of moral compromise. That would be akin to making the BS an accessory to the affair. Which is manifestly untrue and unfair.. If you HAVE to compromise your core beliefs, then you need to D.


Hey Rookie, I didn't say to compromise principles, nor am I advocating condoning affairs.

Examples to ponder where compromise may be necessary:

When couples have mismatched sex drives
When one person in a couple likes to save money and another likes to spend it
When one person is a neat freak and the other is a slob.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Cpacan, I don't want to give the impression that I am against compromise in marriage. I compromise with Sweetie all of the time, and other Married people do it all of the time, for various reasons, though not usually about core morals. I respect Wazza , but I feel that possibly he was too accomodating to his WW and should have taken a firmer line. I think he has compromised himself enough.


I don't mind discussing specific examples where you think I should have been firmer. I suspect you overrate the degree to which I compromised


----------



## cpacan

Remember my post from earlier this week about my wife’s baby steps towards opening up? Here’s a follow up, and I sense it’s a topic that is relevant to some of you these days.

Yesterday evening I thought I should die, I almost choked in my coffee. I was a bit late coming home from work. The kids had been told goodnight, when my wife handed me a letter to read. I had to leave the room in order to read quietly. It was handwritten. Six pages. I noticed that it ended with the words "I take full responsibility for my actions – it wasn’t worth it at all, I’m sorry and I apologize for what I did". 

I couldn't quite handle it and didn't know how to stop crying. It was a very sweet and thoughtful letter and it showed me something I haven't seen in more than two years from her, empathy. It also said that she will do anything for us, and for me, to help us get through this together.

I checked again this morning; the letter was still there, so it wasn't a dream. I really appreciate the effort she made writing this, and I have a glimpse of hope, that we can start a shared healing process from this – if she follow through on the “… will do anything…” – and she may do, but on her own pace.

One of the things that stick out in the letter is that she says, she wishes that she had had more boyfriends before me (we were 18 and 15 when we met), so that she would have tried to lose a loved one’s love - she took me for granted and didn't realize that she had anything to lose. She does now, and that's a start.

So, what I need from her going forward is, that she search herself and work deeply on all the whys you can ask, to create awareness and openness, and maybe a little gratitude for what we have in this world. But yes, the fear, as pointed out by Never Happen 2 Me... the fear of being vulnerable again is quite overwhelming and scary, even when I’m aware of my newfound and more confident self.

I have a small hope, though, that this is a turning point, I could sure use to free up some energy for other areas of my life at the moment. When I think about what could have caused this epiphany on her side, I think it was the moment when I told her and she realized, that I wouldn’t make any far future plans with her – this was a consequence and reality she didn’t see coming.


----------



## happyman64

cpacan said:


> Remember my post from earlier this week about my wife’s baby steps towards opening up? Here’s a follow up, and I sense it’s a topic that is relevant to some of you these days.
> 
> Yesterday evening I thought I should die, I almost choked in my coffee. I was a bit late coming home from work. The kids had been told goodnight, when my wife handed me a letter to read. I had to leave the room in order to read quietly. It was handwritten. Six pages. I noticed that it ended with the words "I take full responsibility for my actions – it wasn’t worth it at all, I’m sorry and I apologize for what I did".
> 
> I couldn't quite handle it and didn't know how to stop crying. It was a very sweet and thoughtful letter and it showed me something I haven't seen in more than two years from her, empathy. It also said that she will do anything for us, and for me, to help us get through this together.
> 
> I checked again this morning; the letter was still there, so it wasn't a dream. I really appreciate the effort she made writing this, and I have a glimpse of hope, that we can start a shared healing process from this – if she follow through on the “… will do anything…” – and she may do, but on her own pace.
> 
> *One of the things that stick out in the letter is that she says, she wishes that she had had more boyfriends before me (we were 18 and 15 when we met), so that she would have tried to lose a loved one’s love - she took me for granted and didn't realize that she had anything to lose. She does now, and that's a start.*
> 
> So, what I need from her going forward is, that she search herself and work deeply on all the whys you can ask, to create awareness and openness, and maybe a little gratitude for what we have in this world. But yes, the fear, as pointed out by Never Happen 2 Me... the fear of being vulnerable again is quite overwhelming and scary, even when I’m aware of my newfound and more confident self.
> 
> I have a small hope, though, that this is a turning point, I could sure use to free up some energy for other areas of my life at the moment. When I think about what could have caused this epiphany on her side, I think it was the moment when I told her and she realized, that I wouldn’t make any far future plans with her – this was a consequence and reality she didn’t see coming.


CPACAN

Good update. I call that a positive action on her part.

Have you ever asked your wife how she would feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

How would she feel if you had an affair with someone else? 

You both have been with each other since you were both very young.

I give you a lot of credit for your resolve as well as the depth of love you have for your wife.

I just hope she truly learns and appreciates what she has in you.......

HM64


----------



## margrace

daisygirl 41 said:


> Sorry everyone.
> I'm struggling and am taking it out on the wrong people.
> Bfree- spot on as usual.
> He's just not stepping up at the moment and I feel like giving up.
> 15 months in and it still hurts like hell.
> Apologies
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Although the success stories really inspire me, i actually appreciate it so much that people here are not always upbeat... everyone's honesty helps me give myself permission to feel ALL of what I am feeling, so thank you. 

I don't think I've been helpful to you so far, dg, but I do agree with you & others in feeling that it's important for your H to step up a bit more.

& I understand that the requisite openness is hard for him and goes against his nature.

Does your H know how you are feeling about where things are with R right now?

Does he know that more from him would be helpful for you (but he feels that he just can't do it)?


----------



## margrace

cpacan said:


> I checked again this morning; the letter was still there, so it wasn't a dream. I really appreciate the effort she made writing this, and I have a glimpse of hope, that we can start a shared healing process from this – if she follow through on the “… will do anything…” – and she may do, but on her own pace....
> 
> So, what I need from her going forward is, that she search herself and work deeply on all the whys you can ask, to create awareness and openness, and maybe a little gratitude for what we have in this world. But yes, the fear, as pointed out by Never Happen 2 Me... the fear of being vulnerable again is quite overwhelming and scary, even when I’m aware of my newfound and more confident self.
> 
> I have a small hope, though, that this is a turning point....


Oh my, I am so happy to read this, cpacan 

The time and forethought and openness that are reflected in six pages of writing make me feel good about this being a meaningful step toward the awareness and openness and gratitude that you mentioned. Yes, it's just a step toward shared healing, and she has a lot to do yet -- but everything starts with a step.

So I am celebrating your small hope today. I might even call it a medium-sized hope


----------



## cpacan

daisygirl; my update was also for you.

Does your husband feel any consequences today? Does he feel the NEED to do something to win you back?

You can also ask in a bit more rough way; what's in it for him to open up? Something along: "I can't do this-thing-that-you-need/like if you don't open up and talk to me because I feel XYZ"

I think our situations are quite similar in this regard.


----------



## cpacan

happyman64 said:


> CPACAN
> 
> Good update. I call that a positive action on her part.
> 
> Have you ever asked your wife how she would feel if the shoe was on the other foot?
> 
> How would she feel if you had an affair with someone else?
> 
> You both have been with each other since you were both very young.
> 
> I give you a lot of credit for your resolve as well as the depth of love you have for your wife.
> 
> I just hope she truly learns and appreciates what she has in you.......
> 
> HM64


Thanks, I hope that too 
Yes, I have asked her several times, and she had a glimpse of this feeling when she gave me the hallpass almost two years ago. But the magnitude and consequences of the betrayal part; I don't think she can imagine it. Noone can untill they experience it.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Hey Rookie, I didn't say to compromise principles, nor am I advocating condoning affairs.
> 
> Examples to ponder where compromise may be necessary:
> 
> When couples have mismatched sex drives
> When one person in a couple likes to save money and another likes to spend it
> When one person is a neat freak and the other is a slob.


Well, Wazza, because of the inevitable "post lag" I think I already covered the idea that we all compromise in our relationships to a greater or lesser degree, in a later post.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> I don't mind discussing specific examples where you think I should have been firmer. I suspect you overrate the degree to which I compromised


From a comparison of our respective situations, I'm pretty sure that you compromised yourself to a far greater degree than I would have. A good example is full disclosure of the affair and all of it's specifics, by your WW. You seem to attach a lesser degree of importance to this issue than I would have. Granted we are different people, but I feel that without complete and total transparency and communication, there is no firm foundation for the type of R that I assume we all strive for, the kind that puts the affair in the past and allows us to move on into the future with a good degree of confidence in the reforms our WW's have made, and hope. When asked about this , you invariably respond with a litany of your WW's virtues and splendid character. Sort of like saying that aside from that whole Holocaust thing , Hitler was a really nice guy. It amounts to a bit of white-washing on your part, and seems to indicate to me that you are willing to compromise your own interests on the altar of marriage preservation. This is rather more important than compromising about leaving the cap on or off the tube of toothpaste.


----------



## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Sorry everyone.
> I'm struggling and am taking it out on the wrong people.
> Bfree- spot on as usual.
> He's just not stepping up at the moment and I feel like giving up.
> 15 months in and it still hurts like hell.
> Apologies
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been thinking of saying something else but I hesitated to post because I know you're not in a good place and I was concerned my comments would be seen as critical. But I would be remiss if I didn't speak up. Daisy, you mention that you only get responses if your posts are positive. May I turn that around a little and suggest that almost all of your posts are TOO positive. I know that those in R have bad days. I also know that most in R have terrible tragic days. And I also know that even the most remorseful fWS aren't perfect. Daisy sometimes I think that you don't post negative things because you don't want to acknowledge them yourself. You are so hoping for a successful and smooth R that you tend to overlook those things that shouldn't be swept away. You internalize too much hurt and excuse too much that should be dealt with firmly and decisively. All of this is pure speculation on my part of course but even if a fraction of it is true please reconsider in the future and let us know of even small issues. Sometimes just talking about them can help and maybe someone else is going through a similar issue and we can all brainstorm solutions together.

As always I am praying for you and your family.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza, I respect your position and esteem your opinions. I want to make that clear.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> I've been thinking of saying something else but I hesitated to post because I know you're not in a good place and I was concerned my comments would be seen as critical. But I would be remiss if I didn't speak up. Daisy, you mention that you only get responses if your posts are positive. May I turn that around a little and suggest that almost all of your posts are TOO positive. I know that those in R have bad days. I also know that most in R have terrible tragic days. And I also know that even the most remorseful fWS aren't perfect. Daisy sometimes I think that you don't post negative things because you don't want to acknowledge them yourself. You are so hoping for a successful and smooth R that you tend to overlook those things that shouldn't be swept away. You internalize too much hurt and excuse too much that should be dealt with firmly and decisively. All of this is pure speculation on my part of course but even if a fraction of it is true please reconsider in the future and let us know of even small issues. Sometimes just talking about them can help and maybe someone else is going through a similar issue and we can all brainstorm solutions together.
> 
> As always I am praying for you and your family.


I completely agree with bfree on this. DG, it is great that you try to maintain a positive attitude, but venting about any negative issues that you have, is very important to your own well-being. I'm sorry if I did not comment on your post, but you kind of caught me off-guard. So now I have egg all over my face. LOL


----------



## Robsia

Conversely, I only tend to come here on bad days. I don't tend to post when things are good, as I'm too busy enjoying the good times. For the record, since my operation on Wednesday, BigMac has been every inch the supportive spouse I would expect, and before then also.

In fact he said today sadly that I could get rid of him now I didn't need him any more - implying that I'd been keeping him sweet only to help me through my op. I just smiled and said "Well, don't give me a reason to." And he said "I wasn't planning on it."


----------



## canttrustu

daisygirl 41 said:


> Sorry everyone.
> I'm struggling and am taking it out on the wrong people.
> Bfree- spot on as usual.
> He's just not stepping up at the moment and I feel like giving up.
> 15 months in and it still hurts like hell.
> Apologies
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG,

I havent posted on TAM in a while but you break my heart with your pain. I can feel it bc I have been where you are. I have no 'advice' only to offer a hug.

((((((CTU hug)))))) I truly hope he steps up DG. I do. I am hoping for you everyday. I fear the only way for him to ever come around is if he gets a new job. I know what your answer is to that. My H would never have come around while working with her I fear. Never. It was the most miserable time of my life. Even after NC it took him nearly a year to start being 'himself' again.

Wishing you luck and strength DG.

CTU


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



canttrustu said:


> DG,
> 
> I havent posted on TAM in a while but you break my heart with your pain. I can feel it bc I have been where you are. I have no 'advice' only to offer a hug.
> 
> ((((((CTU hug)))))) I truly hope he steps up DG. I do. I am hoping for you everyday. I fear the only way for him to ever come around is if he gets a new job. I know what your answer is to that. My H would never have come around while working with her I fear. Never. It was the most miserable time of my life. Even after NC it took him nearly a year to start being 'himself' again.
> 
> Wishing you luck and strength DG.
> 
> CTU


I didn't want to bring that up because I've already beaten the job horse enough so thank you.


----------



## canttrustu

bfree said:


> I didn't want to bring that up because I've already beaten the job horse enough so thank you.


I know and I respect DGs position but I felt remise in not at least brushing on it. Its a hard choice and my H went w/o work for 6 mos but I couldnt take another day. I just couldnt. I was at the end of my rope with the contact, as it seems DG is now. 

We just got a whole year of NC in may and it seriously took almost all of that time for him to start being the man I married again. I dont think it would ever have happened if he was still working there and we would likely be divorced now.

I know you dont want this drum beaten anymore DG. So I will get off the soapbox and just wish you all the luck and strength there is to be had from one BS to another. Know that you are not alone.


----------



## CantSitStill

Daisygirl, when I first read your post, my thought was that maybe because he really doesn't have her on his mind that possibly he forgot that you would see her. I didn't say anything because it's just a guess. I do not think of the exOM but I also don't ever have to see him anywhere thank God. I have not even run into him. Calvin thinks about him way more than I do and unfortunately has run into him quite a bit. It brings out horrible feelings in him when he does but he tells me all about it so that I can comfort him. Yes your husband knew you would see her but maybe it slipped his mind if he had a lot of other things going on in his head. I honestly do not think about the exOM until Calvin brings him up. I was afraid if I said my opinion about it that others would give me crap, like I'm making excuses for him. It's hard because we all are not around eachother enough to make any judgments on how anyone is handling their R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foreversorry

On the topic of not responding to some posts/questions: I actually talked with my BS last night about this. A lot of times, I really really WANT to respond, but I feel like I can't and shouldnt for a couple reasons. I am the WS in my relationship. I feel like if I respond to someone, whether it be a BS or another WS, that I am being very hypocrictial. After all, *I* was the one who betrayed and cheated on him. Who am I to give advice? I had done the exact same thing that these WS's have done and here I am tryin to give them advice? 
All I can see coming at me after I would respond would be "Forever, you did the same things, you have no room to talk!" 
The other reason would be because we are still so 'new' at all this. We are only 6 months from DDay and about 2 months from me no longer TTing and being an idiot. Everyone has so much more time invested in healing. I dunno..im just rambling i guess. lol


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, I respect your position and esteem your opinions. I want to make that clear.


Understood and appreciated.



Rookie4 said:


> From a comparison of our respective situations, I'm pretty sure that you compromised yourself to a far greater degree than I would have. A good example is full disclosure of the affair and all of it's specifics, by your WW. You seem to attach a lesser degree of importance to this issue than I would have. Granted we are different people, but I feel that without complete and total transparency and communication, there is no firm foundation for the type of R that I assume we all strive for, the kind that puts the affair in the past and allows us to move on into the future with a good degree of confidence in the reforms our WW's have made, and hope. When asked about this , you invariably respond with a litany of your WW's virtues and splendid character. Sort of like saying that aside from that whole Holocaust thing , Hitler was a really nice guy. It amounts to a bit of white-washing on your part, and seems to indicate to me that you are willing to compromise your own interests on the altar of marriage preservation. This is rather more important than compromising about leaving the cap on or off the tube of toothpaste.


I thought disclosure would be the issue...didn't want to presume.

The central fact here is that, where you left, I stayed for the kids. That is something many would disagree with.

That different decision aside, I see many parallels in our stories. Hope that doesn't scare you.


----------



## Rookie4

LOL!! Not a bit! Although I should warn you that I don't believe in parallel universes, not even on TAM. I leave that cr*p to the Trekkies and Star Wars junkies.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, does anybody know if Star Wars fans have a specific name? Like Trekkies? Perhaps Starkies or Warkies?


----------



## Foreversorry

Ive seen "Warsies" and "Jedheads" for Star Wars. 
I however, am not one.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

Call med Yoda you must


----------



## calvin

Jabba the Nut
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

My wife says if I grow any more hair on my back and legs I'll look like a Wookie.


----------



## Robsia

BigMac likes Star Wars whereas I like Star Trek. I just asked him the question. He says they are called "War-ians".

However, I did make him take me to see the new Star Trek movie


----------



## SomedayDig

Ahhh...being 8 years old in the theater in 1976. The opening scene of an Imperial Star Destroyer flying overhead with the sub hertz rumbling through my seat.

Man. What a thing seared into my memory.


----------



## calvin

SomedayDig said:


> Ahhh...being 8 years old in the theater in 1976. The opening scene of an Imperial Star Destroyer flying overhead with the sub hertz rumbling through my seat.
> 
> Man. What a thing seared into my memory.


Yep,exactly,I'll never forget it,my Dad took me,I was excited as hell,i still watch it every time its on.
Sadly the neighborhood has gone to crap,the theater is now all porn.
My Dad was impressed,he bought me Star Wars stuff for years after that.
Wish I still had it all,I'd be rich.
I'm very rich in other was now though. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foreversorry

Is it bad that I can admit that I have NEVER seen a Star Wars movie?? Unless you count the Episode One.... <ducks for cover>


----------



## SomedayDig

Blasphemer!!!


----------



## Foreversorry

heh Thats actually an ongoing thing with hubby and I. There are A TON of movies that I have never seen that he is shocked I havent. That is one of the things we do at least weekly. Watch something I should have seen but havent. lol


----------



## CEL

Foreversorry said:


> Is it bad that I can admit that I have NEVER seen a Star Wars movie?? Unless you count the Episode One.... <ducks for cover>



iI FIND YOU LACK OF STAR WARS DISTURBING. You have found the root cause of all your problems......You truly need some REAL HELP. How did you get through life? How did you manage to have friends? How oh how could you not of watched Star Wars...really I say this has to be a troll post. Where is a moderator when I need one. LOL seriously tho you need to have a Star Wars day like get them all and wake up cuddle on the coach in jammies with some evil snack options "Doritos, chocolate covered rice snacks, wasabi peas, ice cream" dedicate yourself and your husband to put on 5 pounds each and be disgusted with yourselves the next day. IT IS GLORIOUS..


----------



## Foreversorry

CEL said:


> iI FIND YOU LACK OF STAR WARS DISTURBING. You have found the root cause of all your problems......You truly need some REAL HELP. How did you get through life? How did you manage to have friends? How oh how could you not of watched Star Wars...really I say this has to be a troll post. Where is a moderator when I need one. LOL seriously tho you need to have a Star Wars day like get them all and wake up cuddle on the coach in jammies with some evil snack options "Doritos, chocolate covered rice snacks, wasabi peas, ice cream" dedicate yourself and your husband to put on 5 pounds each and be disgusted with yourselves the next day. IT IS GLORIOUS..


 If this is the reaction I get to not seeing star wars, how about not seeing Scar Face, The Godfather, Rambo, or basically any of the slasher type series? :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foreversorry

Though I am so committed in doing anything for my BS I have sat cuddling on the couch watching Zombies vs Strippers. THAT is love! 
Ftr...don't do it. Don't watch that movie. I found I like campy movies, but that was just plain horrible!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Malcolm38

Foreversorry said:


> Is it bad that I can admit that I have NEVER seen a Star Wars movie?? Unless you count the Episode One.... <ducks for cover>


So there is another Non Star Wars type out there! I thought I was about the only one! LOL


----------



## calvin

I want to say I'm proud of CSS for tackeling the problem she had,it was a source of a lot of stress for me along with other stuff.
Our insurance finally paid for hail damage we got a few months ago,so the money problems are going away,I will do a lot of the work myself
and bank the extra cash.
I still ask CSS questions but I have stopped asking the same ones over and over,every now and then I think of a question I have'nt asked she answers patiently.
If I have a question I wait a few days to ask,its better for both of us.
I have gotten quite a bit of good news in the last week and my spirit reall has been lifted.
I was not doing the best I could,I'm still not but I'm trying a lot harder now and I see results.
If I hit the lotto I would never dream of seperating from CSS,I love the hell out of her.
I'm still going to limit my time here ( unless there is a hockey game on and I want to rub it in )
I have a loving remorseful wife who adores me,I also have a choice.
I choose to be happy,I choose to quit worrying,I choose to get out from under the dark clouds
and get into the sunshine.

DG,sorry about your rough spell,Its understandable.Seeing the OW will do that to you,I have seen OM in his work truck 7-8 times in a year,the last
time I did'nt even chase him,not worth it.
They are pathetic.let them live their miserable lives.

Take care guys,be back in a couple days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Foreversorry said:


> Though I am so committed in doing anything for my BS I have sat cuddling on the couch watching Zombies vs Strippers. THAT is love!
> Ftr...don't do it. Don't watch that movie. I found I like campy movies, but that was just plain horrible!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FS,I dont know your story but there is quite a mix of both BS and WS here,good people here with sound advice.
I've been slapped around here a little but I needed it.
You'll learn a lot here.

One problem...you don't like Star Wars??? Tsk,Tsk,Tsk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Foreversorry said:


> If this is the reaction I get to not seeing star wars, how about not seeing Scar Face, The Godfather, Rambo, or basically any of the slasher type series? :/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh noes. I don't know if I can post to you!! :rofl:

Not even something "new" like 'The Departed'?!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



SomedayDig said:


> Oh noes. I don't know if I can post to you!! :rofl:
> 
> Not even something "new" like 'The Departed'?!


The original Halloween movie?


----------



## SomedayDig

bfree said:


> The original Halloween movie?


1978. I was very scared of the dark due to being sexually abused by a babysitter. I remember turning away from the TV when the trailer came on. Scared the hell out of me. 

In 1982 after we had moved down to Richmond, VA the kids in our apartments used to like it if I told scary stories at night. I made some good ones up, too. But I decided I needed to take it to the next level and one night, ventured out into the woods next to the complex. I knew where they would be, so I snuck in the pitch dark just to scare them. I forced myself to get over my fear by confronting it and using it for fun.

It was that summer that Halloween, Friday the 13th, Silent Scream, Motel Hell and others were all on HBO and we would have sleep overs at my place to watch.

A few years ago for Christmas, Regret got me the remake of Halloween by Rob Zombie. I loved it. I watched it one day and literally was in tears cuz Z f'ng nailed the Michael back story. I watch it every couple of months because I've always been a huge Michael fan. I dressed up as him for almost a decade until I was 28 for our neighborhood in Richmond. The kids ate it up. They never knew which house or car I was going to appear from...and walk (never run) toward them. 

Good times.


----------



## Foreversorry

Nope, not the Departed..not the original Halloween, no Friday the 13th...


----------



## SomedayDig

omg

small letters mean squeaky voice.


----------



## CantSitStill

I have never made it thru any Star Wars movies either. Don't want to, never interested . I do not like star treck either...oh well so swell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> Ahhh...being 8 years old in the theater in 1976. The opening scene of an Imperial Star Destroyer flying overhead with the sub hertz rumbling through my seat.
> 
> Man. What a thing seared into my memory.


Betas like you enjoy that kind of thing, Dig.


----------



## Rookie4

Actually , most of the time I feel smug and superior because I never feel into the trap of watching movies like this. At other times, I wonder WTF is wrong with me? I don't like the Star Trek/Wars movies, I don't like movies made from comic book characters, and I don't watch reality shows, or crime dramas. I must be an Alien.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Rookie4 said:


> Actually , most of the time I feel smug and superior because I never feel into the trap of watching movies like this. At other times, I wonder WTF is wrong with me? I don't like the Star Trek/Wars movies, I don't like movies made from comic book characters, and I don't watch reality shows, or crime dramas. I must be an Alien.


I'm with you Rookie on the crime dramas. Blecch. Blood, guts, and way too much over the top drama (I have more than enough of THAT in my life, thank you very much ).

But Star Trek (especially the original TV series, which is a hoot and a half) and Star Wars have many redeeming features even if you're not into sci fi in general (which I'm not). 

They are basically cowboys in space, the good guys eventually win, and there are some very sincere people with very good intentions, with a lot of comic relief thrown in. And the John Williams music in Star Wars is especially good, as movie music goes. 

Some of the Star Trek show sets are so bad, they're hilarious. And some of the later Star Wars movies were not so hot. But overall, since so MANY cultural references come from both franchises, it's worth sitting down with them and giving them a chance. If for no other reason than to laugh AT them, if that's the angle you prefer to take!


----------



## hopefulgirl

Foreversorry said:


> Though I am so committed in doing anything for my BS I have sat cuddling on the couch watching Zombies vs Strippers. THAT is love!
> Ftr...don't do it. Don't watch that movie. I found I like campy movies, but that was just plain horrible!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, you truly deserve a medal of some kind. With a title like that, I don't even want to THINK about what you had to endure! 

:rofl:


----------



## bfree

Foreversorry said:


> Though I am so committed in doing anything for my BS I have sat cuddling on the couch watching Zombies vs Strippers. THAT is love!
> Ftr...don't do it. Don't watch that movie. I found I like campy movies, but that was just plain horrible!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





hopefulgirl said:


> Yes, you truly deserve a medal of some kind. With a title like that, I don't even want to THINK about what you had to endure!
> 
> :rofl:


I'm wondering who won......and how?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I just have to weigh in here...

A. Star Wars RULES. R2D2 is the coolest robot ever, and every swingset was my starfighter when I was little.

B. I dig the new Star Trek movies as well. I haven't seen any of the "classics" yet, but that's on Matt's and my list for our summertime activities.

4. Anything Joss Whedon is the best ever - Firefly, Buffy, Avengers, you name it and I am a fangirl.

∞. X-men(s), Avengers, Iron Man(s), Batman(s), and the first set of Spiderman(s) films are good. Daredevil, Catwoman, other spin-offs, not so much.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Foreversorry

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I just have to weigh in here...
> 
> ∞. X-men(s), Avengers, Iron Man(s), Batman(s), and the first set of Spiderman(s) films are good. Daredevil, Catwoman, other spin-offs, not so much.


yes yes YES! I am a SUCKER for X-men, Spiderman (the first 'set' like she said) Thor, ETC. 
We actually watched all three of the Batman movies last week as that was another I hadnt seen. Sucked I waited so long for that. Bonus seeing all the places in Pittsburgh they filmed.


----------



## CEL

Foreversorry said:


> yes yes YES! I am a SUCKER for X-men, Spiderman (the first 'set' like she said) Thor, ETC.
> We actually watched all three of the Batman movies last week as that was another I hadnt seen. Sucked I waited so long for that. Bonus seeing all the places in Pittsburgh they filmed.


Okay you might not be TOTALLY evil........but I am watching


----------



## EI

CEL, I love your signature line! I think it's awesome! 

Later _Reconcilers,_...... I'm preparing for a cookout tomorrow to celebrate Father's Day, our son's high school graduation and a couple of birthdays, too!


----------



## CantSitStill

Missed you EI!!! Have a good weekend!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thank you all for your responses. Lots of questions and comments for me to think about.
As of today though my marriage is really hanging on by a thread.
H has shut down and is in some sort of depression. He is almost lifeless and unfeeling.
Is he stepping up? No.
Is he fighting for me? No.
I cry and he's silent. Can just about bring himself to comfort me.
I just don't know what's happened.
I've started implementing the 180 today.
Ill be honest I'm scared, just going to take it hour by hour.
Please keep us in your thoughts
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thank you all for your responses. Lots of questions and comments for me to think about.
> As of today though my marriage is really hanging on by a thread.
> H has shut down and is in some sort of depression. He is almost lifeless and unfeeling.
> Is he stepping up? No.
> Is he fighting for me? No.
> I cry and he's silent. Can just about bring himself to comfort me.
> I just don't know what's happened.
> I've started implementing the 180 today.
> Ill be honest I'm scared, just going to take it hour by hour.
> Please keep us in your thoughts
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Prayers DG,CSS and I are thinking about you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Daisygirl...talk to him. Tell him how you feel and about the thoughts going through your head. If it's easier then write it all down for him, let him read it and digest it and see how he responds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thank you all for your responses. Lots of questions and comments for me to think about.
> As of today though my marriage is really hanging on by a thread.
> H has shut down and is in some sort of depression. He is almost lifeless and unfeeling.
> Is he stepping up? No.
> Is he fighting for me? No.
> I cry and he's silent. Can just about bring himself to comfort me.
> I just don't know what's happened.
> I've started implementing the 180 today.
> Ill be honest I'm scared, just going to take it hour by hour.
> Please keep us in your thoughts
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I don't have any answers, dg. But, I'm thinking about you, praying for you and sending big (((Hugs))) <3


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Missed you EI!!! Have a good weekend!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, CSS. I miss you guys, too. B1 and I are doing very well, almost "normal" at times. I think that by spending more time in "our" real world that we have been able to start building our new life, with new memories and new adventures. I have a tendency to take on too much, at times. When I realized that I was spending as much or more time obsessing about the troubled relationships of others than I was my own, I knew that I had to take a step back. 

For so many years I wanted a husband who would focus more of his time and energy on me and our marriage. I have that now. I'm going to treasure every moment of it.

I've also been dealing with some health issues. Nothing for anyone to worry about, though. But, it does add to my level of exhaustion. I'll be around here, occasionally. But, when I am, I'll be a "visitor" on the "R" thread, just like everyone else. 

You guys are all doing a beautiful job with the thread. It belongs to everyone, B1 just happened to make the first post. 

I love you all,
~Marianne (yeah, I said that. It isn't like I've ever been very secretive about it.)


----------



## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thank you all for your responses. Lots of questions and comments for me to think about.
> As of today though my marriage is really hanging on by a thread.
> H has shut down and is in some sort of depression. He is almost lifeless and unfeeling.
> Is he stepping up? No.
> Is he fighting for me? No.
> I cry and he's silent. Can just about bring himself to comfort me.
> I just don't know what's happened.
> I've started implementing the 180 today.
> Ill be honest I'm scared, just going to take it hour by hour.
> Please keep us in your thoughts
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still think its because he is still working with the OW. I've said it before. He can't keep turning his emotions on and off like a switch. Now he's just leaving his emotions in the off position. Daisy, do you think its a coincidence that things have gone progressively downhill since he started going back to work?


----------



## canttrustu

bfree said:


> I still think its because he is still working with the OW. I've said it before. He can't keep turning his emotions on and off like a switch. Now he's just leaving his emotions in the off position. Daisy, do you think its a coincidence that things have gone progressively downhill since he started going back to work?


This. Sorry DG but really its come down to the job or the marriage. It is as simple as that at this point and You know I dont say that lightly- Ive been where you are.

((((hug))))) Thinking and feeling for you DG.


----------



## bfree

Daisy,

To my knowledge only ONE successful reconciliation has occurred with the WS still working with their AP. And in that case the BS also worked at the same company and as the IT director she was able to monitor every single aspect of communications. I don't care how resolute your husband is. I don't care how determined he is to make sure the affair doesn't resume. There is NO WAY that he can continue working there and stay married to you. It has (almost) never happened....ever! There is a reason and you already know why. Daisy, I don't want to see anything bad happen in your marriage but why is your husband still working there? To provide a lifestyle for you and the children? Is that lifestyle going to still be there after a divorce? Is it to be the breadwinner for the family? What family will there be if your marriage ends? You and your husband need to decide what is really important. I'd live in a cardboard box before I'd let anything come between my wife and I, much less a job. Both of us downgraded our careers when we got pregnant because we realized that money is a means to an end, not the end itself. We realized we could do with less but less of us was not acceptable. Please think about it.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Thinking of you DG and hoping he can turn it around. As hard as it may be, this may be a time when you need to help him so he can help you. If he's really fighting depression, then something serious needs to happen to help him get back to a place where he can be the man you deserve. I know the 180 is good, that it helps the person executing it, but I guess I would want to make sure that the person it's being used against is capable of doing what is needed to respond to it. If you have expressed yourself clearly and he chooses not to be that man, by all means, please take care of yourself. But if he DOES want to be the man you need but can't because of physical reasons, can he show you that? It seems like in the not too distant past he has really been trying. So, like bfree and ctu said, what correlates with this downward spiral for him and you? 

IDK, maybe I'm not expressing myself very clearly. I certainly don't think he should be cut any slack if he's just tuning out of the relationship, but especially after all the effort it seems you both have invested in working your way back together, I'd need to be certain that all avenues were carefully considered.


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## canttrustu

Ok DG I just cant walk away without doing all I can to help you. So Im gonna risk really upsetting you by telling you my story of the way my H was after dday and while he was still working with OW- for 2.5 mos. Here goes- I know you've got a stance on the work issue but please read this carefully - I think it may sound familiar...

So let me describe my H during his yr long EA with a coworker first. He was evasive, defensive, disconnected. He would find any reason to avoid being alone with me. ANY reason. He avoided sex like the plague. I would talk to him and he didnt listen. I could bring up something I'd said to him the next day and he would have no idea what the hell I was talking about bc he was daydreaming about OW while I was talking. He was spending long hours at work, wouldnt take a day off, taking a loooong time to respond to any communication from me and rushing me off when he did respond. Turns out while talking to me she was close by and he would rather have been talking to her so he rushed me off the phone alot. When holidays came around he half assed every gift. No thought put into anything having to do with me. He was withdrawn and easily annoyed by me. He was critical of me. I could do nothing right and she could do nothing wrong. He was spending less time at home and when he was here- he wasnt. They were emailing each other 50-75 times a day and they sat quite literally 10 ft from each other all day, every day. So you can imagine the sheer volume of their interaction- he did everything he could to be near her. Did her work for her if he had to- whatever it took. All the While giving me nearly nothing at home. I couldnt get a phone call yet she was getting 50 emails a day and hours and hours of conversation....

Then came dday(week really) and everything was out in the open. He started trying to do things differently but he wasnt really. 

He then started working from home every day he was here all day. I was literally looking at him and could see him brimming with anticipation of an email from her- any interaction was a 'hit' of the drug even after dday. She was all over his email and we had an agreement that he told me of ANY communication between them so I endured weeks of "I have an email from......" and then proceeding to read that womans words to me while trying to seem as though he had no emotion about it. I now know and to some degree knew then that it wasnt the case that he had NO emotion about interacting with her. He was still hoping for it even after dday. Even sitting in front of me- he was checking his email almost incessantly. I had to set a damn timer and say "no checking that email except once an hour" and I watched him like a hawk. He would still try-knowing full well I was right there. With all of that said he was doing things that were more positive. He was talking again. He was listening when I spoke. He was engaging the kids again. He was giving eye contact again. He was holding me when we slept again....

Then it happened one day- the phone rang- in MY house and it was HER! I had to hear her voice but that wasnt the worst part. The look on his face and his body language told me all I needed to know. THEN I heard him speak to her....His tone was unlike anything I've ever heard from him. He was obviously trying to sound as if she wasnt affecting him bc I was watching. He had the sound of pure misery in his voice. Misery in dealing with her in part bc I could hear him but more bc he WANTED to talk to her and couldnt. I could hear it in his voice. I didnt recognize it for what it was then but I certainly do in hindsight. If she wasnt affecting him he would have spoken to her as he would anyone else- he didnt.

He finished his *monotone* conversation with her and immediately walked into another room. He didnt console me. He didnt apologize to me. He didnt hug me or ask me how I felt. He consoled himself and never considered how I might be feeling at that moment. The minute the choice was her or me- he immediately forgot to consider my emotions at all. It was heartbreaking to say the least. I knew at that moment that it was the job(our financial security) or the marriage. I was so upset. Incredibly upset at what I had just witnessed. 

That day I knew for sure there was NO way he could ever go back and work with her. If he did he would most certainly completely disappear emotionally again as he had done during his A. Once he collected himself after speaking with her enough to realize just how upset I truly was at what I had just seen and heard he immediately went to his computer and typed his resignation. 

I think he did that DG, because he knew too, that he couldnt go back there and have this marriage survive. I was losing weight so fast, I couldnt eat, I couldnt sleep, I was barely functioning as was he. Beo had been harping at me that I would lose him if he stayed at this job. Either to resentment or to her.

He typed that resignation and got in his car and drove to work and laid it on his boss' desk. That was on a Tuesday afternoon. 

He had to stop working from home and go back in to finish out his last two weeks training someone to do his job. During those two weeks- OW was gone the first week. He did pretty well. The second week she was back- he immediately started leaving the house w/o kissing me goodbye. He was withdrawn when he got home. It was like everything he had gained thru being at home was instantly wiped away as soon as he laid his eyes back on her. That was one awful week. It took so little time for him to slip so fast.

I hope you read all of this DG. Im sorry for the novel but I really want you to understand the corner a WS backs themselves into when they have an affair. The only way out of that corner is to make a new hole in the wall. TO walk away- completely. They simply CANNOT drive in two lanes at once. They love and want one person(their spouse) yet are so incredibly conflicted by their own poor choices that seem to have a death grip on them. Until they get out of the reach of the vice- they will continue to struggle for air.


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## Robsia

DG - I am so sorry for the way things are. I have no advice but I want you to know you're in my thoughts. Canttrustu made a wonderful post - I don't think I could have coped if my WH had been working with the women he had affairs with. The only reason I've been able to even make a start on putting it behind us is because I know they are over, and that he has no reason to have any contact with them ever again. We still have issues to work through, but that is not one of them.

I hope nobody minds if I post a positive update - I feel selfish but maybe it will give some people some hope.

As I posted before, I was sterilised last Wednesday. BigMac has been here since early Weds am, looking after me, looking after the kids and the dog, making tea, and generally just being here.

Last night we made muffins together as a family. They weren't a total success but it was fun.

Basically, we have been living together for the last five days and it's been really really nice, like it used to be before we started falling out all the time.

I still have moments of panic, like when his phone goes off - I instantly want to know who it is. But he is calm and he shows me and he doesn't mind that I freak out. I wish the paranoia would go away - I hate the way it makes me feel.

The thought of living together again is terrifying. What if it ends up like it was before, with us arguing all the time? Can we resolve the issues that we used to have? Hopefully that is what the MC will be for.

I was reading on another thread that 80% of WSs go on to cheat again, even if at the time when they say they never will again they really mean it. That they miss the excitement and the thrill.

So I asked BigMac what it had felt like at the time when he was cheating? Whether it was exciting and thrilling and whether he thought that he would miss it. He said not. He said it wasn't exciting or thrilling - he said it was horrible and very wearing having to lie all the time. I didn't ask the logical next question of "Why did you do it if it was so horrible?" as I know why he did it. He enjoyed the ego-boost and the validation of being with someone who liked him and who was attracted to him, which presumably out-weighed the horribleness of having to lie and sneak around.

That statistic did scare me. In addition to the question of "Can we successfully live together without murdering each other" I now have an additional question of "Will he ever do it again?"


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## bfree

Robsia said:


> DG - I am so sorry for the way things are. I have no advice but I want you to know you're in my thoughts. Canttrustu made a wonderful post - I don't think I could have coped if my WH had been working with the women he had affairs with. The only reason I've been able to even make a start on putting it behind us is because I know they are over, and that he has no reason to have any contact with them ever again. We still have issues to work through, but that is not one of them.
> 
> I hope nobody minds if I post a positive update - I feel selfish but maybe it will give some people some hope.
> 
> As I posted before, I was sterilised last Wednesday. BigMac has been here since early Weds am, looking after me, looking after the kids and the dog, making tea, and generally just being here.
> 
> Last night we made muffins together as a family. They weren't a total success but it was fun.
> 
> Basically, we have been living together for the last five days and it's been really really nice, like it used to be before we started falling out all the time.
> 
> I still have moments of panic, like when his phone goes off - I instantly want to know who it is. But he is calm and he shows me and he doesn't mind that I freak out. I wish the paranoia would go away - I hate the way it makes me feel.
> 
> The thought of living together again is terrifying. What if it ends up like it was before, with us arguing all the time? Can we resolve the issues that we used to have? Hopefully that is what the MC will be for.
> 
> I was reading on another thread that 80% of WSs go on to cheat again, even if at the time when they say they never will again they really mean it. That they miss the excitement and the thrill.
> 
> So I asked BigMac what it had felt like at the time when he was cheating? Whether it was exciting and thrilling and whether he thought that he would miss it. He said not. He said it wasn't exciting or thrilling - he said it was horrible and very wearing having to lie all the time. I didn't ask the logical next question of "Why did you do it if it was so horrible?" as I know why he did it. He enjoyed the ego-boost and the validation of being with someone who liked him and who was attracted to him, which presumably out-weighed the horribleness of having to lie and sneak around.
> 
> That statistic did scare me. In addition to the question of "Can we successfully live together without murdering each other" I now have an additional question of "Will he ever do it again?"


The 80% statistic quoted in that thread is inaccurate. I don't know what study that poster was citing but the statistic I've always seen is 15-20%. So the accurate statistic would be that 80% of WS don't cheat again. And I've read every study that I could get my hands on.

To set your mind at ease.

Will a cheater cheat again.

My Partner Cheated: Won’t He Just Do This to Me Again and Again? - Dr Hall on Call • Your Lifestyle Health Success Coach


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## TCSRedhead

Don't sweat the statistics you see. Some of the posters are fond of throwing out numbers with no factual basis.


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## russell28

Just got my first TT, I asked if she used to stop at his apartment in the mornings, she had already told me about his apartment, I just hadn't thought of the 'mornings' thing until then... She told me yes she did, I was crushed to add this new information, wishing I hadn't asked, but I guess I'm not an idiot and she just validated what I already knew... Then the kicker, I tell her to tell me anything else she's been keeping. She tells me that she was using her sisters apartment on Sundays.. Her sister caught them and she told her to stop etc... Basically she not only was there she did things there that she had previously told me didn't happen, her story this time was 'he tried but it didn't go well ' to which I replied ' for you? I bet he enjoyed it' . So yea.. Today is back to square one for me, all progress lost.. Happy Father's Day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

Supposedly left out of timeline to protect sister, more bull.. Do I credit for coming clean, or call deal breaker for continuing to lie, is this expecting too much?? It did appear to hurt her to see how much it was hurting me... Kept asking if she should just leave because she's just making it harder on me... I wish I knew the answer

Canceled dinner reservations.....

Go Bruins


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## calvin

russell28 said:


> Supposedly left out of timeline to protect sister, more bull.. Do I credit for coming clean, or call deal breaker for continuing to lie, is this expecting too much?? It did appear to hurt her to see how much it was hurting me... Kept asking if she should just leave because she's just making it harder on me... I wish I knew the answer
> 
> Go Bruins


Sorry to hear that Russel,TT can be very painful,I got almost noTT from CSS.
Take care of yourself.
Happy father day to all the men on this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

russell28 said:


> Just got my first TT, I asked if she used to stop at his apartment in the mornings, she had already told me about his apartment, I just hadn't thought of the 'mornings' thing until then... She told me yes she did, I was crushed to add this new information, wishing I hadn't asked, but I guess I'm not an idiot and she just validated what I already knew... Then the kicker, I tell her to tell me anything else she's been keeping. She tells me that she was using her sisters apartment on Sundays.. Her sister caught them and she told her to stop etc... Basically she not only was there she did things there that she had previously told me didn't happen, her story this time was 'he tried but it didn't go well ' to which I replied ' for you? I bet he enjoyed it' . So yea.. Today is back to square one for me, all progress lost.. Happy Father's Day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





russell28 said:


> Supposedly left out of timeline to protect sister, more bull.. Do I credit for coming clean, or call deal breaker for continuing to lie, is this expecting too much?? It did appear to hurt her to see how much it was hurting me... Kept asking if she should just leave because she's just making it harder on me... I wish I knew the answer
> 
> Canceled dinner reservations.....
> 
> Go Bruins



I don't know if you share your posts on TAM with your wife, Russell...but if you do - please have her read this.

My name is Dig. I'm actively in reconciliation with my wife, Regret214 since our Dday 3/6/12. The last almost year has been difficult, but not that bad compared to the first 5 months. Even though we had agreed to try to reconcile, I always had a nagging voice in the back of my head after she initially came clean. Well...I kinda forced her hand in coming clean by catching her that night I found the hotel receipt in her email. I never suspected anything.

So, she came clean and told me of her 5 year long affair. She assured me "I knew everything". Until 4/22. Then, "I knew everything". Until 5/5. "Then I knew everything". Well, until 6/24. That's when I got the truth and "knew everything".

Until finally on 8/30 when I walked out because it was the last and final trickle truth. See, the trickle truth wasn't about other guys or anything like that. It was simply questions that I had asked that she tried desperately NOT to tell me. Why? Because she didn't want to hurt me.

Did you hear that?!!

She LIED to me because she didn't want to HURT me.

Guess what waywards?! You've already hurt us e-f'ng-nuff by having an affair with someone!! Jesus H. Christ (my apologies everyone but it bears righteous fury)!!! Do you NOT understand the basic idiocy of what you're doing to us when you trickle truth stupid sh-t?!!

STOP!! Stop it right the f-ck now!

You are killing ~ and I mean absolutely KILLING any chance of reconciliation with someone who was good enough to give you another go at your marriage. The absolute MINIMUM that you owe is the truth.

Every single time you allow this cycle to continue you force the betrayed spouse back to DAY F'NG ONE! 

Quit being selfish. Quit letting YOUR ego control these stupid things and LET IT GO! Give your spouse the respect that you failed to give them with your idiocy in your affair. I think they've f'ng earned it by keeping your ass around.


Edit to add: This is for EVERY wayward spouse to read. Not just Russell's.


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## russell28

Thanks Dig, I'll have her read it.. :|
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

russell28 said:


> Supposedly left out of timeline to protect sister, more bull.. Do I credit for coming clean, or call deal breaker for continuing to lie, is this expecting too much?? It did appear to hurt her to see how much it was hurting me... Kept asking if she should just leave because she's just making it harder on me... I wish I knew the answer
> 
> Canceled dinner reservations.....
> 
> Go Bruins


yeah, tell her to leave..even if you mean it temporarily


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## Acabado

russell28 said:


> Supposedly left out of timeline to protect sister, more bull.. Do I credit for coming clean, or call deal breaker for continuing to lie, is this expecting too much?? It did appear to hurt her to see how much it was hurting me... Kept asking if she should just leave because she's just making it harder on me... I wish I knew the answer
> Canceled dinner reservations.....
> Go Bruins


I'd do whatever I had to do to evaluate whether sister is a "friend of marriage" or a toxic one (If I recall MIL is already a toxic presence). I'm talking about monitoring their interactions. Do it now, they are now talking about it, that's for sure (your wife had to tell her she's outed, she knows she's now in the hot seat and tested, next family gathering need to be dealt with...).
So...
When did it happen? Did she really told her to stop? Stop to what? (was she already in the know about the cheating but she didn't want her to use her house?) How many times did they went there _after _she alleguedly told her to stop? What kind of relationship do you have with her? Did you saw her after that? Did she beleived she stopped cheating back then? Is she often at your house? Did she ever lied to you directly, provided an alibi even just once? 
The pertinent questions are endless and with no context about your closeness...

In my book that woman would be permanently banned from my house. My wife si free to have interactions with whatever she choose (she's not just a friend, cutting family is hard). Just my take. The odds are she will tell she did nothing wrong and won't apologize nor give you support if you decide to confront her with her participation. Already takes too much energy to build the marriage to consider also forgive and deal with such an enabler.

About the things they did while rejecting you... man. I don't know. Hope you find a way to deal with it.


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## warlock07

russell28 said:


> Supposedly left out of timeline to protect sister, more bull.. Do I credit for coming clean, or call deal breaker for continuing to lie, is this expecting too much?? It did appear to hurt her to see how much it was hurting me... Kept asking if she should just leave because she's just making it harder on me... I wish I knew the answer
> 
> Canceled dinner reservations.....
> 
> Go Bruins


Where do you figure in her priorities? She had a whole parallel life with him. She is definitely proteting her sister. If your wife hasn't, ask to talk to her sister and verify the events..


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## jupiter13

Just a thought. Last year my WH went to see his sister and she lied to me for him. Then she called and apologized for the lie but proceeded to tell me another lie while covering up what was really going on and where they went. Actually she told me 2 more lies on top of that since WH all ready fronted her off. WH had his choice his sister or me, period. I have cut everyone out of my life or circle of friends that have or did lie to me about anything. Dealing with a lying spouse is hard enough I did not feel I could support and maintain any more lairs around me. It was very easy to do except it is hard to maintain other family ties while she is grasping at any family member to be close to since her own children don't want anything to do with her and treat her like dirt. The sad part is as I have explained to her what she did she still maintains innocence as I was doing it for my brother and another excuse on top of another excuse. It comes down to mean she is no friend of mine or the marriage.


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## CEL

Russ I had to go back and read your thread. This is her second time holding back the previous one was the sex in your bedroom and her story then is that she knew any more lies would be a deal breaker. The irony is enough to cut.

Her comment on that she thinks she should leave is also distressing I can sort of see where she is coming from but still it comes off as a tactic to change the focus. I would ask her to leave for a few weeks since this has started you have been FOCUSED on fixing it. Now maybe it would be a good idea to rest and get some perspective. Time away from her will let you know what YOU want. Good luck. Oh and I would tell you FIL about the sister I think his feelings will be more telling given he is a BS as well. I would also cuss the sister out and ban her from my place.


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## StarGazer101

SomedayDig said:


> *Guess what waywards?! You've already hurt us e-f'ng-nuff by having an affair with someone!! Jesus H. Christ (my apologies everyone but it bears righteous fury)!!! Do you NOT understand the basic idiocy of what you're doing to us when you trickle truth stupid sh-t?!!
> 
> STOP!! Stop it right the f-ck now!
> 
> You are killing ~ and I mean absolutely KILLING any chance of reconciliation with someone who was good enough to give you another go at your marriage. The absolute MINIMUM that you owe is the truth.
> 
> Every single time you allow this cycle to continue you force the betrayed spouse back to DAY F'NG ONE!
> 
> Quit being selfish. Quit letting YOUR ego control these stupid things and LET IT GO! Give your spouse the respect that you failed to give them with your idiocy in your affair. I think they've f'ng earned it by keeping your ass around.
> 
> 
> Edit to add: This is for EVERY wayward spouse to read. Not just Russell's.*


Rinse and repeat!


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## canttrustu

TT is the absolute worst! Equal to, at very least, the original betrayal itself imo.


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## StarGazer101

DG I've read posts that say the second year is the hardest. I'm starting to come to grips with that now. The drama has worn off and you can begin to see the life in front of you and the betrayal is _always_ going to be part of your life. It's a dull, deep lasting pain that is more depressing and soul-sapping than the initial shock and horror when you first realise that you've been betrayed by the one person who you thought was your shelter in a storm. 

Fighting for them and your future together occupies the front of your brain so much that you cannot comprehend the depth of the damage that has been done. Meanwhile the back of your brain is totting up, exploring the implications and the horror of it all and reframes the image you have of who that person you thought you married really is, and what your future might be with THAT person. Once the drama wears off; back of the brain thinking kicks in and it's terrifying. You have lost so much and have no guarantees for the future. It is soul-destroying when you are coming to this scary place and your fWS is just _sitting there in silence_ 

I believe that this is the real testing time. I think for myself that this will be when I can start to believe that there is hope for us or there is none. If a WS is ever to come close to proving that they are worth trusting again they must at the very least be prepared to immerse themselves in the pain that they have caused their BS to help them heal. Protecting themselves from this by avoiding talking is indicative of who is *the* most important person to them.

When my H avoids and deflects I can see what he is doing, and I know why he's doing it. It doesn't make me feel sorry for him as he would like, I feel sad and rejected and I wonder what I was fighting for. My hope is that he will at some point step up to the plate, until he does the chances for us to successfully R are ticking away.

You can only tell him how you feel so much, at some point he has to be the man you need, and that's his choice whether to be that man. If his discomfort means more to him than your pain it makes it plain where his priorities lie. 

I hope both of our fWSs get this soon. I'd live in a tent with mine if he did.


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## Robsia

canttrustu said:


> TT is the absolute worst! Equal to, at very least, the original betrayal itself imo.


Yes.

When D-day 2 came for me, and I found out that there had been another OW after the first one - FAR worse for me was the fact that he had LIED. Again.

Whereas with the first OW I had wanted to know everything about her, where they had been, what they had done - with the second one, I barely gave her a second thought. I still don't. I wanted to know her name, and when it began and ended, but nothing apart from that. It hardly even hurts.

it was the lies that hurt far far more.

Since I now have the whole truth (I think, I hope) I have noticed a difference in our relationship. I can't define it, but I no longer feel as if he is holding back, I no longer feel as if there are things I don't know. I still panic whenever BigMac gets a text, but he helps me through it.

That shifting sand of half-truths and insecurity beneath my feet has begun to solidify into a base on which we can finally begin to rebuild our marriage. There's a long way to go, but I feel finally that we might have a solid foundation.

TT is not a solid foundation. Any R trying to build on TT will collapse.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Russell,

I wanted to share a post I made on another thread awhile back to someone in a similar situation as you. So here are my thoughts on TT, and why it is so destructive and concerning to a BS.

_I think the bigger issue is that continued TT is an indicator that a WS is NOT fully committed to the R, the BS or the relationship. 

TT is a clear indicator that they are still looking out first and foremost for themselves. They are more concerned about how the truth can affect them negatively than how it can affect you and the relationship positively. 

I think that OP situation with a second D-Day with new affair, as well as some of the subsequent posters that mention getting trickle truthed for years on end are all symptoms of a larger issue - lack of consequences for deceit. 

An initial affair is a HUGE act of deceit, but continuing to deceive is in many ways continuing the affair. And a BS who is continuing to carry secrets has already crossed marital boundaries and is much more likely to take the smaller step back into a full-on affair.

If you are getting TT and continued deceit, go nuclear. Move out, serve papers, have them move out etc. The WS must see that this behavior WILL END THE RELATIONSHIP. They must understand that the only way to preserve things is to bare their soul. In this type of a situation, it is up to us, the BS, to force them fully out of this fog. Or make the decision to walk away. 

But continuing to tolerate deceit lays the behavioral foundation for future betrayals. Do not tolerate secrets, lies or omissions._


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## russell28

Wife read Digs post... I read some others to her, one from Regret that was good.. She had a breakdown, told me she had to go to her mothers, see couldn't do it anymore, I forced her into a bear hug to control her, she was mad that I wanted her to avoid toxic sister... After I calmed her down, she came out of the bathroom and told me the rest... Just unloaded it all, it hurt her to give it all at once, but I think this thread helped , Ty Dig for pushing the right buttons.. Most of it I assumed , just verified.. Showers together, gifts she bought him, places they went, day they called in sick,,,,, Ty for the support folks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

This was not an affair this was a RELATIONSHIP. Some you see are all sex others are about the emotional this was a whole LIFE. Gifts, sex, get aways, love nests just wow so much to get through hell he even met her sister. The only thing that has not come out is that she did not introduce the kids probably because they would of told. I am not one way or another I personally just don't think I could get over this. 

For you it is like you said starting at square one. Now you know that it was not sex or even friendship thus was a WHOLE love life with all the toppings. If you take away that she was married and just looked at what they did you would say they where in love and in a committed relationship maybe looking at moving in together. I don't know if you can get over the seriousness of the affair and to be honest the level of seriousness equals the level if betrayal especially including the SIL betrayal. Just some thoughts I wish you the best I really really do. Good luck.


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## happyman64

You are a strong man Russell.

Glad you got the truth even though it is painful.

Take care of yourself buddy.

HM


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## soulpotato

I decided to come back for a bit. I've got nowhere else to go anyway, and life really sucks. I know it doesn't matter, but at least I can post here.

GF and I have been fighting very often for the last month. It's like extended WW3. Raised voices, even in the therapist's office. (The therapist told me to let GF have her people around.) I've pretty much lost hope that her answer is going to be "yes" to us reconciling and getting back together. There's always more that is needed, better. I'm failing to do x, y, or z, or multiple things. There are always new issues. I "failed to deliver on my promises" because I won't give her or our mutual friend the authority to dictate whether my thoughts/feelings/perceptions regarding situations with them are valid or "real". (I know I've got BPD and struggle with issues of perception and cognitive distortion, but come on, it's not 100%.) If only things were just so, she could feel more invested, lean more towards committing.

Today, on the phone, I was totally calm, but the second I brought up any of our issues (which we had agreed today's call would be for), she started getting angry and raising her voice at me. This is typical. It was 3 hours of sh!ttiness. I kept trying to back away from upsetting her, but it didn't work. Everything I said seemed to be wrong. At the end, I told her that I felt that she didn't feel the same way about me that I did about her, and talked about how someone else would no doubt anger/fight with her less. I said it didn't seem like she wanted to be with me. She yelled at me in the middle of that exchange, then finally said that I MIGHT be the right person for her. I was like whut, seriously, after all these years we spent together and the last half a year of me giving this all I've got, and you're saying that?  I feel like no matter how long or hard I work, limbo is where we'll always remain. I am afraid that no matter how long I wait, I will never get a yes or a no. Just a continuous upping of the ante of what I need to do and give in order to win her commitment. And she is not even meeting my basic needs (affection, responsiveness, being present and not abandoning), and I have told her that. And that I feel this needs to be fair and balanced.

For my own sanity, when we first started this "evaluation" period, I told her that in six months, I would need to know if she wanted to commit or not. For my own sanity and well-being. In a few weeks, that time will be up. The endless studying that she has been doing for a certification the last 6 weeks (and 2-3 more weeks to come) is only making this harder on both of us, because she no longer has time for "us" and constantly reminds me that she is taking time away from studying in order to oblige me at those infrequent times that she calls me, or whenever therapy happens. She tells me that the timing is very inconvenient for her.

One thing she brought up last session that we've been fighting over is that she's upset that she has to ignore my last OW (they started talking to each other years ago, which was weird enough) and not talk to her. Just because I said so. I told her most betrayeds wouldn't want to still talk to their partner's AP and would feel some anger at the AP, too? Or would want the toxic presence gone? But she holds OW blameless and says that I'm the one who hurt her, not this OW who said she had no use for GF and that she had never considered GF a friend (she said the not-a-friend part directly to GF). When I reminded GF of these statements, she said, "I can't go by anything the two of you talked about." Er? OW said it to you, too, GF! She also said that she can understand why OW attacked me with guns blazing and did her best to tear down whatever she could. (Because I told her I wasn't going to date her and would instead try to R with GF.) Weirdly enough, it's like GF is on OW's side all the way. OW even tried to contact me multiple times after that whole sh!tstorm (from harassment to begging) and you would think that that would perturb GF, but no.

I feel very lost, frustrated, and overwhelmed, and am almost done. There are so many things I don't understand with regard to GF. I feel that she views me almost like a stray cat - whether I come or go, it ultimately won't affect her. Even though she says she wishes for things to "work out". But I said I would give her the time to evaluate and not make the decision for her, and so I will, even if it kills me.


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## russell28

She thought it was love, and I'm sure it felt like it at the time.. From how she describes it. She was in love (and he had a playmate) at first... At the end the love was dead and it was running on fumes, she wasn't deep in fog because it had run its course. So yea, hot steamy long term affair, but I still had her for 25 years before him, had three beautiful children with her, slept with her every night for decades,,.. And I know that their connection, while she may have expected it would outshine our love, she now realizes that what we had that she almost tossed out, was real.. I'm not a fraud. Not fiction.
She talks of regrets that all that time she could have been spending with her family, how much of a monster she is, how disgusted she is with how cruel she treated me.. How the memories feel horrible and make her feel ashamed and like a *****.. I honestly just care that she wants to work at this with me, I think we can get through it together.. She seems to be trying hard to 'get it', she's not a mentally tough person like me so I give her extra credit for that too.. She does seem to have suffered enough to feel the pain, no matter how this works out, she won't look back and say 'that was easy' ... She also could have gone the route of her mother and take 0 blame, she takes 100% for the A
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

I do wish both you and her the best. I know people make mistakes sometimes they spend their whole lives making them. It sounds like you deeply love her and although I do not know if I could do it, I admire your courage in keeping at it. You are showing immense courage and strength in your struggle. I wish both you and your wife all the happiness in the world.


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## SomedayDig

russell28 said:


> Wife read Digs post... I read some others to her, one from Regret that was good.. She had a breakdown, told me she had to go to her mothers, see couldn't do it anymore, I forced her into a bear hug to control her, she was mad that I wanted her to avoid toxic sister... After I calmed her down, she came out of the bathroom and told me the rest... Just unloaded it all, it hurt her to give it all at once, but I think this thread helped , Ty Dig for pushing the right buttons.. Most of it I assumed , just verified.. Showers together, gifts she bought him, places they went, day they called in sick,,,,, Ty for the support folks
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Take it slow, bud. There will be a hundred people telling you that she's lost and she'll never come back. They said that about Regret and she is right here by my side.

You will know cuz you are there.

I pray peace for you, my friend. Whether that prayer is through God, a tree or whatever higher power you might have in your soul - this is not an easy path you have undertaken.


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## CantSitStill

I understand Soulpotato that yes it is up to her. You do not need to be with her if she doesn't feel she wants to be with you. I would stay determined to keep trying but if she tells you she is done then it is done. If she decides to treat you like crap for the rest of your life then that is no relationship to be in. Now if she is willing to try and reconcile then yes try. It may or may not work. She might not be able to handle the betrayal. I know it is your fault but it doesn't mean you should be treated like crap. You do need to make her feel lov and secure that she can trust you. You need to work your butt off to get that trust back but you do not need to let her punish you forever. You may need to move on if she thinks she can just treat you like crap. I am not saying she needs to get over it but she needs to decide whether or not she wants to work on your relationshipor
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Wow, thank you to all of you who have responded to me over the last couple of days.
CTU, bfree, of course you are right. Things have taken a turn for the worse Since he went back to work and this is something we definitely have to address. We made a start on Sunday and H finally admitted that yes, the work situation is a huge problem, he also said he HAD been looking out for a new position but at the moment there is nothing available! This was news to me! We both admitted we don't have all the answers and at the moment things are a mess, but We both still want to keep trying and are not going to give up yet.

After that conversation the day progressed well. I have to phrase my words carefully. If he feels attacked, he shuts down and I don't want that. 
I'm implementing a mini 180, like I did before, I'm not saying 'I love you' first, not initiating any physical contact and trying to give him some space. I know I've been smothering him.
I'm not ready to give an ultimatum on the work situation. I know what you guys are saying is right but I'm not ready mentally to do it yet. Does that make me weak? Then so be it. However, I am looking to change my job situation in September. I currently work 3 nights a week away from home so I'm going to see if I can get a day job somewhere. I've been doing it for 10 years and I need a change. In the mean time we are just taking it slow again and looking forward to the end of July when we'll have 6 weeks school holidays off together.

CSS, I really do appreciate your input. I need the input from you as it can hopefully give me an insight from the WS perspective.
Don't ever think your input is t valuable.

Stargazer , margrave and cpcan, Thank you also. Your support really means a lot.
Sorry if I've missed anyone out.
Ill keep you all updated
DG
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

I saw this on another site and I know it pertains to many of you in this thread. Just wanted to share.

"Treasure the good parts of the past and put it safely in a box. Then embrace the possibilities of a new, deeper marriage. One that is based on the coming together of two adults who have weathered their storms and choose to be together forging a new path of their own making."


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## Robsia

BigMac and I walked my dog down the beach yesterday morning. We strolled hand in hand and looked at rockpools and shells. It was nice.

We’re going to look at another house on Friday. Sometimes I wonder if I am crazy to think we can live together again. I moved out for a reason. He got angry about small things, things that really weren’t that important. And instead of talking about them calmly, he got angry. And when he got angry, he became nasty, and abusive. Never violent, but sarcastic and belittling and cruel. 

Right now we’re both on our best behaviour so naturally it’s good. But what happens a few months down the line? What if he can’t control his Mr Nasty?

When we were coming back from the beach yesterday there is a zebra crossing. While we were waiting on the side, two cars went past without stopping, and when we were on it, a car went behind us without waiting for us to finish crossing. Both of these things are illegal in the UK. BigMac was annoyed and vocal, shouting at the car drivers, being sarcastic and verbally aggressive toward them. I’m cringing beside him, holding his hand, whispering that it doesn’t matter. He turns to me and tells me “But they were in the wrong.” I know they were in the wrong, but does he have to shout out in the street and be aggressive about it?

I don’t know if I’m just over sensitive, but I hate it when he is like that. 

I don’t like it when he swears in front of me during normal conversation. He never swears in front of the kids, or in front of my parents, out of respect. So why can’t he respect my wish that he not swear in front of me?

When we lived together, he would maintain that he was allowed to swear in his own home. But he swears in my home also. But now I feel uncomfortable asking him not to, because I know it will create a bad atmosphere (me criticising him), and we are getting on so well right now. I don’t want to do that. And I swear occasionally also, but not as much as he does. But I feel like I used to, that I can’t ask him to stop doing something without risking his wrath. So I stay quiet, but then I resent him for it. And all the time he doesn’t know.

Basically I feel that if I don’t like him swearing in front of me that he should respect that and not swear in my presence. And if he does, then he is not respecting my wishes. If he can manage not to swear in front of other people out of respect for them, then he should be able to do it for me as well. But then he sees it as me trying to control him and making him be something that he’s not.

This is not an A issue – this is an issue we had before, which is now beginning to come back. I don’t know how to deal with it.


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## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> I understand Soulpotato that yes it is up to her. You do not need to be with her if she doesn't feel she wants to be with you. I would stay determined to keep trying but if she tells you she is done then it is done. If she decides to treat you like crap for the rest of your life then that is no relationship to be in. Now if she is willing to try and reconcile then yes try. It may or may not work. She might not be able to handle the betrayal. I know it is your fault but it doesn't mean you should be treated like crap. You do need to make her feel lov and secure that she can trust you. You need to work your butt off to get that trust back but you do not need to let her punish you forever. You may need to move on if she thinks she can just treat you like crap. I am not saying she needs to get over it but she needs to decide whether or not she wants to work on your relationshipor
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly, CSS. The betrayal is my fault, and I have no trouble doing the hard work, but if there is going to be a relationship to have, we both need to own and work on the issues we had _before_ I cheated. I am still waiting for the decision on whether she wants to R or not, but it's looking bad. I have also endured various harmful behaviors from her (I calmly informed her that they were harming me, to no avail), which I accepted as my due for a while because of being the betrayer/cheater. But after a point, we have to either start rebuilding or just leave the ruins and walk away. I'm not willing to endure being treated like this for the rest of my life, either. Frankly, I couldn't survive that. 

I've been doing everything I can to make her feel loved and secure, but that's not really being reciprocated, and I'm about empty. I have also continuously shown her that I am trustworthy, and have been changing things she wanted changed. Nothing I do seems to be good enough. 

She said yesterday that it was unfair that OW was being "punished" by her and that I was not. I was shocked, because I feel she has done a good job of punishing me. Yet I still need to be punished because she hasn't even begun in her mind? I don't feel very good about that, and I know I can't endure much more. I am also not going to let anyone punish me indefinitely, not even her. I have already been beating myself up continuously, and both of those things, especially combined, are like playing Russian roulette with my BPD. If I completely destabilize and lose my grip (because ALL of this stuff hits me where I'm weakest), then all bets are off -- and obviously I don't want that. This process I'm going through is psychological equivalent of someone unfit and in poor health suddenly entering the Olympics. I wish I were not limited, but the reality is that I feel I'm going to break soon if things don't change. I have told her that I'm coming up on the limit of my ability to endure the current state of things.


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## margrace

CantSitStill said:


> I understand Soulpotato that yes it is up to her. You do not need to be with her if she doesn't feel she wants to be with you. I would stay determined to keep trying but if she tells you she is done then it is done. If she decides to treat you like crap for the rest of your life then that is no relationship to be in. Now if she is willing to try and reconcile then yes try. It may or may not work. She might not be able to handle the betrayal. I know it is your fault but it doesn't mean you should be treated like crap. You do need to make her feel lov and secure that she can trust you. You need to work your butt off to get that trust back but you do not need to let her punish you forever. You may need to move on if she thinks she can just treat you like crap. I am not saying she needs to get over it but she needs to decide whether or not she wants to work on your relationshipor
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


soulpotato, i was wondering about you! i agree with what css has said... and i will add a perspective as a BS. 

_when we first started this "evaluation" period, I told her that in six months, I would need to know if she wanted to commit or not. For my own sanity and well-being. In a few weeks, that time will be up._

GF's behavior is rough on you right now and of course you can't go on being yelled at forever (and you _shouldn't_ be expected to). but imho, speaking about deadlines works against R. even though we KNOW -- and i'm 100% with you on this -- that the crappy treatment can't go on indefinitely, i wonder if you can walk this one back. if you can't do that with honesty, then R may not be for you.

_There's always more that is needed, better. I'm failing to do x, y, or z, or multiple things. There are always new issues._

i do some of this too. i think this is normal for BSs -- feeling/hoping that _something_, one more thing, some piece of information is going to finally take the pain away and make everything clear. and all these things really DO help! but it takes us a while to realize that it doesn't really work that way. a big part of the recipe is *time* and for you to keep on keeping on, if you can do that with honesty.

_I feel like no matter how long or hard I work, limbo is where we'll always remain. I am afraid that no matter how long I wait, I will never get a yes or a no. Just a continuous upping of the ante of what I need to do and give in order to win her commitment._

ultimately she or you may decide that R is not worth it -- that decision is best for some people, as we know. i don't hear her being at this point yet. i think she is leaving the door open for you to walk your talk IF that's what is truly in your heart. you have to decide for yourself if you want to do that work.

_Everything I said seemed to be wrong. At the end, I told her that I felt that she didn't feel the same way about me that I did about her, and talked about how someone else would no doubt anger/fight with her less. I said it didn't seem like she wanted to be with me. _

can you just keep listening no matter what? you're right, she probably doesn't feel the same way right now. i didn't either. i knew that i loved fWH -- that was real -- but that feeling existed side-by-side with many negative feelings all mixed together with shock. and what helped me with that was for him not to question it, but just to understand it and be accountable. "of course you don't feel the same way," he would tell me, "of course you have doubts about commitment. you *should* have doubts about me....*i'm* responsible for that."

_she holds OW blameless and says that I'm the one who hurt her...Weirdly enough, it's like GF is on OW's side all the way. OW even tried to contact me multiple times after that whole sh!tstorm (from harassment to begging) and you would think that that would perturb GF, but no._

yes, i don't get this one. the part that i understand is, that as low as my opinion is of my H's OWs, he is the one who hurt me. i relate to that but not the rest. maybe i don't understand the situation well enough....?
_
I feel that she views me almost like a stray cat - whether I come or go, it ultimately won't affect her.
_
this hit me and it's probably a big part of why i am moved to respond this morning even though i really don't have time.... it's because this is my go-to emotional self-protective stance as well  

again, i think lots of BSs go to this place but it has always been characteristic of me when i feel in danger of being hurt. for me, your mention of deadlines would *totally* bring this out in me.

that way of disconnecting and self-protecting is NOT helpful to a relationship -- i have learned that the hard way  and at some point, she may need to look at this in herself. that's part of the work that i am doing to address the problems that we had as a couple before the A... because as you are indicating, a couple in R must eventually look at the issues that BOTH of them contributed to the decline of the relationship. 

in the meantime -- returning to css's points now -- these two things are both true at the same time: it's NOT okay to treat a remorseful WS like crap BUT you have to be willing to work your butt off.

...IF that's honest work for you (and for her). why do i keep harping on that? because if i thought that my fWH did not want _with every cell in his body_ to do _all of this_ to his utmost _forever_, my feeling would be, then please just have some integrity and tell me that so i can go my own way. go through this with a partner who's reluctant, half-hearted, etc.? it's too f'ing hard.

soulpotato, you began finding your way to remorsefulness much more quickly than my fWH did, and i've read so many insightful posts from you. i'm hoping this is just one of the rough patches, one of those times of EXHAUSTION, that we all know so well, and that you will get your shadow back soon


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## bfree

Robsia said:


> BigMac and I walked my dog down the beach yesterday morning. We strolled hand in hand and looked at rockpools and shells. It was nice.
> 
> We’re going to look at another house on Friday. Sometimes I wonder if I am crazy to think we can live together again. I moved out for a reason. He got angry about small things, things that really weren’t that important. And instead of talking about them calmly, he got angry. And when he got angry, he became nasty, and abusive. Never violent, but sarcastic and belittling and cruel.
> 
> Right now we’re both on our best behaviour so naturally it’s good. But what happens a few months down the line? What if he can’t control his Mr Nasty?
> 
> When we were coming back from the beach yesterday there is a zebra crossing. While we were waiting on the side, two cars went past without stopping, and when we were on it, a car went behind us without waiting for us to finish crossing. Both of these things are illegal in the UK. BigMac was annoyed and vocal, shouting at the car drivers, being sarcastic and verbally aggressive toward them. I’m cringing beside him, holding his hand, whispering that it doesn’t matter. He turns to me and tells me “But they were in the wrong.” I know they were in the wrong, but does he have to shout out in the street and be aggressive about it?
> 
> I don’t know if I’m just over sensitive, but I hate it when he is like that.
> 
> I don’t like it when he swears in front of me during normal conversation. He never swears in front of the kids, or in front of my parents, out of respect. So why can’t he respect my wish that he not swear in front of me?
> 
> When we lived together, he would maintain that he was allowed to swear in his own home. But he swears in my home also. But now I feel uncomfortable asking him not to, because I know it will create a bad atmosphere (me criticising him), and we are getting on so well right now. I don’t want to do that. And I swear occasionally also, but not as much as he does. But I feel like I used to, that I can’t ask him to stop doing something without risking his wrath. So I stay quiet, but then I resent him for it. And all the time he doesn’t know.
> 
> Basically I feel that if I don’t like him swearing in front of me that he should respect that and not swear in my presence. And if he does, then he is not respecting my wishes. If he can manage not to swear in front of other people out of respect for them, then he should be able to do it for me as well. But then he sees it as me trying to control him and making him be something that he’s not.
> 
> This is not an A issue – this is an issue we had before, which is now beginning to come back. I don’t know how to deal with it.


Regarding the thing with the car, I do that sometimes so I can't really get on him that much. But if it bothers you then he should try to taper off on the yelling. The swearing and general tone you describe seems a lot like what is talked about in the book Love Busters. If Mac hasn't read it yet maybe he should as it really explains things very well. Sometimes we engage in behavior that for us is totally normal without realizing the effect it may have on those around us. Especially when involved in disagreements these behaviors can come out strongly and really hamper what would otherwise be a very solvable issue. That is something that can be dealt with fairly easily if he is motivated to do so.


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## soulpotato

Robsia, I have something of the same problem with GF. She has serious anger issues that she hadn't recognized or been willing to discuss until very recently. Whenever I would say something, it would just make things worse. She yells, slams things around, punches walls, and breaks things. Makes discussion and resolution a tad bit difficult. I find it very stressful to be around because I feel assaulted by it, and it brings me back to the past when people were violent and screaming, and I was scared. I don't want to be there, and there's no reason for that behavior, but she refuses to respect my wishes with regard to that kind of behavior. I constantly tell her to stop raising her voice, that yelling bothers me, etc, but she doesn't seem to care.

It's not normal or socially acceptable for Mac to yell over things like that. Does he realize that? Has he discussed it with a therapist? If you have asked him not to curse around you because you find it upsetting, then he should comply. It is a small thing to ask.


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## Robsia

bfree said:


> Regarding the thing with the car, I do that sometimes so I can't really get on him that much. But if it bothers you then he should try to taper off on the yelling. The swearing and general tone you describe seems a lot like what is talked about in the book Love Busters. If Mac hasn't read it yet maybe he should as it really explains things very well. Sometimes we engage in behavior that for us is totally normal without realizing the effect it may have on those around us. Especially when involved in disagreements these behaviors can come out strongly and really hamper what would otherwise be a very solvable issue. That is something that can be dealt with fairly easily if he is motivated to do so.


See, these two examples are only minor things that bother me a little bit, but not enough to really make a thing out of it. His other behaviours were much more troubling.

God, if this was all it is, I wouldn't have a problem - no one's perfect after all 

But they were just two little niggly things that made me think "Hmm" - a little echo of Mr Nasty still in there.

But then he hasn't really started his Anger Management as such yet - the damned NHS really drags their heels over here. He's had a couple of initial appts with a therapist who wants to refer him to some group therapy thing, but that hasn't started yet. So what he is doing, he's doing all by himself.

Where we are with MC - because there was an abusive element identified, he had to go for his first appt by himself, then I have to go for one by myself, so they can identify what type of relationship we have.

He said she asked him a lot of questions and some things she told him were abusive, that he didn't realise were, such is "So, if I call Robsia a b!tch, that's abuse, even if she is being one!" And he was quite surprised to be told that it was, even though I have told him the same things many times.

I remember the first time he called me a b!tch - we were in bed. I flew out of bed, hysterically crying, yelling at him from the end of the bed to never ever call me that again.

By the time I left him, I used to hear it on a fairly regular basis. One time toward the end he called me a f*cking c*nt and told me he hoped I choked in my sleep.

That was after I told him I could see why his sons didn't want anything to do with him and hadn't for the last three years. They had even sent him a solicitor's letter telling him never to make contact with them.

This, needless to say, was the height of a particular nasty argument.

This is the environment I escaped from with my kids.

And yet, if he can control his Mr Nasty and we can learn to deal better with conflict, it could be so good. Is it just a fantasy I'm clinging to? I don't know.


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## daisygirl 41

Robsia
Dont rush into moving back in together.
Thats one thing i regret. We should have taken it slower, and got to the bottom of everything first.
Take it slow!


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## margrace

Robsia said:


> I remember the first time he called me a b!tch - we were in bed. I flew out of bed, hysterically crying, yelling at him from the end of the bed to never ever call me that again.
> 
> By the time I left him, I used to hear it on a fairly regular basis. One time toward the end he called me a f*cking c*nt and told me he hoped I choked in my sleep.
> 
> ...This is the environment I escaped from with my kids.
> 
> And yet, if he can control his Mr Nasty and we can learn to deal better with conflict, it could be so good. Is it just a fantasy I'm clinging to? I don't know.


i'm with you on these issues, robsia. completely unacceptable. 

and i don't believe that the possibility of controlling this behavior is a fantasy -- it's just a very very hard thing that will take his really understanding it, wanting it, committing to it, and working at it.

but people can do hard things. they do them all the time


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## soulpotato

margrace said:


> soulpotato, i was wondering about you! i agree with what css has said... and i will add a perspective as a BS.


Thank you for thinking of me.



margrace said:


> GF's behavior is rough on you right now and of course you can't go on being yelled at forever (and you _shouldn't_ be expected to). but imho, speaking about deadlines works against R. even though we KNOW -- and i'm 100% with you on this -- that the crappy treatment can't go on indefinitely, i wonder if you can walk this one back. if you can't do that with honesty, then R may not be for you.


I talked about the deadline with therapists, and they agree that it's a good idea for me to have this deadline for my own mental health. GF tends to procrastinate and doesn't like to make decisions about things, so I wanted to prevent being caught in that hell indefinitely. I thought 6 months should be enough time to evaluate me and decide yes/no on R (even though we have been physically separated for 6 months, we were emotionally separated for 9 months before that). I am totally upfront and honest with her, which always causes problems, but I'm doing it. Like I said, the deadline is not arbitrary. She has not asked for an extension, either. Everyone around me who knows us says that 6 months is more than enough, but I may be willing to move this out one more time. However, if I keep doing so, she will not respect me, my boundaries, or feel any pressing need to decide anything or seek balance with me. I feel that R could be for us, but she needs to do her part, too, and that's what I'm feeling a lack of. Not completely - she's starting to do some things, but at the same time, I feel she often tries to guilt-trip me about the time and energy I'm taking up. She wants me to just be happy and let her have a nice time, but I can't always do that if there are unresolved issues mounting up. (She's very avoidant and doesn't like dealing with such things.)

I would love to be able to just leave it open and not have a deadline, but I don't think that's wise or realistic in our situation. I can't expect her to be careful or considerate of me, after all. Also, I need concrete boundaries and definition of things, otherwise it makes things very hard for me to handle and control (internally). Actually, I think we both need that.



> i do some of this too. i think this is normal for BSs -- feeling/hoping that _something_, one more thing, some piece of information is going to finally take the pain away and make everything clear. and all these things really DO help! but it takes us a while to realize that it doesn't really work that way. a big part of the recipe is *time* and for you to keep on keeping on, if you can do that with honesty.


Well, it's not the details she wants, it's more like relationship things that she wants me to do, behaviors, things she wants me to allow. I've repeatedly asked her to lay out her terms (LOL). It's always, "Well, do this and then we'll see how I feel." I ultimately give her everything she wants, even the things I really disagree with (like keeping people from the dating site as friends), but she gives me very little that I ask for. It is maddening for me. I'm doing my best, and I am being honest. 



> ultimately she or you may decide that R is not worth it -- that decision is best for some people, as we know. i don't hear her being at this point yet. i think she is leaving the door open for you to walk your talk IF that's what is truly in your heart. you have to decide for yourself if you want to do that work.


For me, it wouldn't be about not being worth it. It's more about what I can withstand. I really think that she is trying to drive me to walk so she can blame me, but I'll try to see it differently. I have been walking the talk, giving her my 100% and my heart, but I do not feel that she's meeting me, and at this point, we kind of need that if we're going to make something of this. Like I said, I have no problem doing the work, but I do have a problem with this entire thing being too one-sided and totally unbalanced. That is not the makings of a relationship, and is very unhealthy. I need her to work with me. I can't do this alone.



> can you just keep listening no matter what? you're right, she probably doesn't feel the same way right now. i didn't either. i knew that i loved fWH -- that was real -- but that feeling existed side-by-side with many negative feelings all mixed together with shock. and what helped me with that was for him not to question it, but just to understand it and be accountable. "of course you don't feel the same way," he would tell me, "of course you have doubts about commitment. you *should* have doubts about me....*i'm* responsible for that."


I'm trying, even though she doesn't seem to listen to me. I am totally accountable, but after 6 months of this, I do need to feel a little cared for and wanted. Feeling the opposite just sets off explosions in me. I am fighting myself while trying to give her everything she needs. But at the end of the day, I am human and have needs, too. Trying to pretend I don't is just a recipe for disaster. I understand she has doubts, and I take full responsibility, but at the same time...she needs to make a decision on how we are going to proceed.

I don't know, maybe I'm just too weak for this. Maybe I was crazy to ever think that I had what it took. Or maybe she just doesn't want this deep down and doesn't want to admit it, and any failure at this point isn't all my fault after all. But if she doesn't fix her issues in our relationship and tries to move on to another, they will follow her, and things will break again. Because she does have issues that would trouble even a relationship with a healthy, normal person - it is not just my disorder that has caused us problems, and I think she is finally seeing that with the help of the therapist. Likewise for me. I would rather we do it together. I think sometimes she'd opt for that, too, but other times... I don't know. 



margrace said:


> yes, i don't get this one. the part that i understand is, that as low as my opinion is of my H's OWs, he is the one who hurt me. i relate to that but not the rest. maybe i don't understand the situation well enough....?


Right, I would expect that she would feel more pain with me, but the other part of that is just incomprehensible. No, it's not that you don't understand the situation, it's that it just really doesn't make sense. It's going to be the topic of another therapy session, I'm sure. 



margrace said:


> this hit me and it's probably a big part of why i am moved to respond this morning even though i really don't have time.... it's because this is my go-to emotional self-protective stance as well
> 
> again, i think lots of BSs go to this place but it has always been characteristic of me when i feel in danger of being hurt. for me, your mention of deadlines would *totally* bring this out in me.


I really appreciate your response.  Ahh.  Unfortunately, when she does that, I feel like she just doesn't care and that I don't matter. Which feeds right into my issues. So I try to bring it up to talk about it, and she distances or gets angry even more. If it gets too bad, I might act in or act out, depending. Which just makes things worse, but it's like...something that snaps when too much pressure is applied to it. I'm struggling to become as healthy and functional as possible, but I am always going to have these vulnerabilities, and as the therapist said, anyone who would be my partner is going to have to be aware of these things and act accordingly.

I feel that the deadline is necessary, and the therapist agrees. In a perfect world, I wouldn't have to have one. I also see the deadline as a "fair warning" kind of thing instead of me just suddenly up and saying, "I can't take this, I'm out of here," one day. I chose 6 months because I thought it was fair and also at the outer range of my ability. But I have really struggled to give her that time, especially these last few weeks. The attacking, the pushing away, the refusal to respond to affection, shutting me down and shutting me out, etc. I can only take so much of that. No matter how much I want to keep going, my limits are real, and disregarding them to push myself past them would only result in general destruction and probably self-harm or suicide for me (which I may do anyway if I lose her, though I'm trying to avoid thinking of that as an option - still, failing in this would be like the ultimate confirmation to me of how unlovable, worthless, and bad I must be...and since I don't want her to be a hostage, I don't really talk about that stuff with her). I know this might be hard to understand, but it's something real that I have to deal with. (I tried to pretend my disorder wasn't real and that it didn't affect anything, and that's part of how we got here. I found out how dangerous and destructive that was the hard way.) So maybe things won't work out.

The deadline also causes conflict because just like anything else I ask for, she sees it as me trying to control her, and she resists anything she perceives as an attempt at "controlling" her, even if it's something reasonable. The control thing is an overarching issue.



margrace said:


> that way of disconnecting and self-protecting is NOT helpful to a relationship -- i have learned that the hard way  and at some point, she may need to look at this in herself. that's part of the work that i am doing to address the problems that we had as a couple before the A... because as you are indicating, a couple in R must eventually look at the issues that BOTH of them contributed to the decline of the relationship.


Ohhh, you're not kidding. I find the disconnection and corresponding behaviors especially triggering. I said recently to GF that we seem to hit every single weakness that the other one has. Our issues connect in the worst ways possible. But when they're not causing problems, we're super compatible. So that's what "we" are fighting for. She is starting to understand that this is a big problem, but she keeps telling me she doesn't think she can change it. I told her if she can't at least be emotionally present and sometimes emote in affirming ways, then we're not going to be able to do this.

Kudos to you for doing that work, margrace. I know it can't be easy. I wish GF would realize how essential it is. Maybe she's starting to understand, which is why she's going to her own therapist now (just started) - and because I did tell her that things were about to go critical and that we were now in emergency mode. 

If she could just do some small things for me, or handle things a little differently, it would make a world of difference.



margrace said:


> in the meantime -- returning to css's points now -- these two things are both true at the same time: it's NOT okay to treat a remorseful WS like crap BUT you have to be willing to work your butt off.


This, right here. I AM working my a$$ off, and have been, but it's like it doesn't register with her. And the mistreatment is making this harder than it has to be. I understand she has issues and that she sometimes acts in abusive ways because of them, BUT she needs to take responsibility and stop being so set on the defensive blindness, just as I have and continue to do. As I said to her the other week, maybe she just cannot heal with me. 



margrace said:


> ...IF that's honest work for you (and for her). why do i keep harping on that? because if i thought that my fWH did not want _with every cell in his body_ to do _all of this_ to his utmost _forever_, my feeling would be, then please just have some integrity and tell me that so i can go my own way.


I really don't know about her, but I'm in this honestly and completely. That's what I want from her - to have the integrity to tell me if she's done or not sufficiently interested so that I don't uselessly keep trying. I will keep going if that's what she wants, but we are still at that crossing until she decides.



margrace said:


> *go through this with a partner who's reluctant, half-hearted, etc.?* it's too f'ing hard.


YES!! This is exactly how I feel, the very root of it, right there. That's how I feel she is. When I tell her that, though, she just gets angry at me and says she's putting in an effort and I just don't appreciate it.



margrace said:


> soulpotato, you began finding your way to remorsefulness much more quickly than my fWH did, and i've read so many insightful posts from you. i'm hoping this is just one of the rough patches, one of those times of EXHAUSTION, that we all know so well, and that you will get your shadow back soon


Thank you, margrace, I appreciate that. I am totally exhausted. I'm sure she probably is, too. She said that she couldn't even try for a while in the beginning because she was so over and done with "us". I'm feeling extremely negative these days.

Thank you, but I think getting my shadow back will take years! It's part of becoming a "real" person, rebuilding the shattered self from the core outward. Remaining cohesive and present while enduring this kind of pain is so hard. 

Thank you so much for your input and perspective, margrace.


----------



## Robsia

soulpotato said:


> I ultimately give her everything she wants, even the things I really disagree with (like keeping people from the dating site as friends), but she gives me very little that I ask for.


I'm a bit confused here.

You're the WS, yes? And she is the BS, yes?

Is it you that is wanting to keep people from the dating site as friends? That's something BigMac wanted to do as well - on D-day 2 one of the things I found out was that he was still in contact with one of them - and I absolutely put my foot down. He said they had met twice but nothing had happened (although she sent him inappropriate pictures as recently as a week before D-day 2).

He said he had kept her on side as a possible business contact but I told him in no uncertain terms was he to keep in contact with anyone he had met on a dating site for any reason. It's totally inappropriate, even without the pictures.


----------



## russell28

Robsia said:


> I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> You're the WS, yes? And she is the BS, yes?
> 
> Is it you that is wanting to keep people from the dating site as friends? That's something BigMac wanted to do as well - on D-day 2 one of the things I found out was that he was still in contact with one of them - and I absolutely put my foot down. He said they had met twice but nothing had happened (although she sent him inappropriate pictures as recently as a week before D-day 2).
> 
> He said he had kept her on side as a possible business contact but I told him in no uncertain terms was he to keep in contact with anyone he had met on a dating site for any reason. It's totally inappropriate, even without the pictures.


Easiest way to maintain boundaries, is to NOT be friends with people of the opposite sex.. say hello, but stop there.. avoid 'how are you doing?', because they might think you actually care. If you need a friend, find someone that's your sex then you won't build an attraction and attachments.. that's my take on friends of opposite sex... then add in 'dating site', and bam... no brainer.


----------



## CantSitStill

She might be testing you Soulpotato, to see how much you will take and see if you will leave or stay. I have limits, you should to. I would tell hef it appears she is not happy with you so you are gonna leave since she seems to not be able to be satisfied with any of the work you put in. I'm sorry but yeah I think you should end it. 

Robsia I would tell bigmac you will not be around him until he gets anger management, that is so unacceptable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

CantSitStill said:


> Robsia I would tell bigmac you will not be around him until he gets anger management, that is so unacceptable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, no, the bad stuff I posted was how it used to be, not how it is now. That was why I left. If he was like that now, I wouldn't even be considering R.


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> I'm a bit confused here.
> 
> You're the WS, yes? And she is the BS, yes?


Correct.



Robsia said:


> Is it you that is wanting to keep people from the dating site as friends? That's something BigMac wanted to do as well - on D-day 2 one of the things I found out was that he was still in contact with one of them - and I absolutely put my foot down. He said they had met twice but nothing had happened (although she sent him inappropriate pictures as recently as a week before D-day 2).


No way, not me - HER. GF wants to keep the people she met on the dating sites as friends. Thinks I'm controlling and irrational that I don't like that. I do not have anyone around - there is no one to threaten GF at all. 



Robsia said:


> He said he had kept her on side as a possible business contact but I told him in no uncertain terms was he to keep in contact with anyone he had met on a dating site for any reason. It's totally inappropriate, even without the pictures.


I tried to insist that such connections were dangerous, but GF points out that she's not like me, so there's no risk (even though she also has boundary problems and has allowed people to cross them in unacceptable ways while still maintaining contact). This is one of the things we fought over in therapy. I feel it's unfair and that we're living by two different sets of rules. The therapist said I should let her have her dating site buddies, but discuss it with GF if something bothered me, and then we could "come to a decision together". I AM SAYING IT'S BOTHERING ME NOW. Ugh. This just reinforces my fear that my feelings don't matter. And she has shut me down and stonewalled me in the past when I've tried to tell her that something she had with this person or that person was bothering me.


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> She might be testing you Soulpotato, to see how much you will take and see if you will leave or stay. I have limits, you should to. I would tell hef it appears she is not happy with you so you are gonna leave since she seems to not be able to be satisfied with any of the work you put in. I'm sorry but yeah I think you should end it.
> 
> Robsia I would tell bigmac you will not be around him until he gets anger management, that is so unacceptable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're right. Every time I tell her I'm at my limit and about to give up, her behavior changes and she eases up on me. I'm starting to think it's not a coincidence. I definitely do have limits, and I've said similar things to her before...


----------



## Robsia

soulpotato said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> No way, not me - HER. GF wants to keep the people she met on the dating sites as friends. Thinks I'm controlling and irrational that I don't like that. I do not have anyone around - there is no one to threaten GF at all.
> 
> 
> 
> I tried to insist that such connections were dangerous, but GF points out that she's not like me, so there's no risk (even though she also has boundary problems and has allowed people to cross them in unacceptable ways while still maintaining contact). This is one of the things we fought over in therapy. I feel it's unfair and that we're living by two different sets of rules. The therapist said I should let her have her dating site buddies, but discuss it with GF if something bothered me, and then we could "come to a decision together". I AM SAYING IT'S BOTHERING ME NOW. Ugh. This just reinforces my fear that my feelings don't matter. And she has shut me down and stonewalled me in the past when I've tried to tell her that something she had with this person or that person was bothering me.


So, you were both on dating sites, and she want to keep hers, but you can't keep yours?

That's not right!

After D-day when I was messed up, I did briefly jump on a dating site and struck up a conversation with a guy. I was close to arranging a meeting with him when I realised that what I was doing was no better than what BigMac had done, and that if I wanted to make a go of our marriage I had to stop.

So I stopped contact with him and I later told BigMac about it. I wasn't proud of what I'd done, but I was doing it for the wrong reasons.

Although I was able to say, "Now, see how you're feeling now, about me just being in contact with another man? Now multiple that by about a million and you'll be close to how I feel about you having sex with not one, but two other women, and being in contact with any number of others."


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> So, you were both on dating sites, and she want to keep hers, but you can't keep yours?
> 
> That's not right!


Thank you! Yes, that is exactly my sticking point! I want both of us to do this, not just me. I want rules applied equally, and risks minimized equally, on both sides. (Oops, didn't answer your question - she went out on the dating sites first, and I followed suit just to not look pathetic.)



Robsia said:


> After D-day when I was messed up, I did briefly jump on a dating site and struck up a conversation with a guy. I was close to arranging a meeting with him when I realised that what I was doing was no better than what BigMac had done, and that if I wanted to make a go of our marriage I had to stop.
> 
> So I stopped contact with him and I later told BigMac about it. I wasn't proud of what I'd done, but I was doing it for the wrong reasons.
> 
> Although I was able to say, "Now, see how you're feeling now, about me just being in contact with another man? Now multiple that by about a million and you'll be close to how I feel about you having sex with not one, but two other women, and being in contact with any number of others."


I kind of wondered if that's not what GF was doing, because as soon as she said she wanted to separate/"end the romantic aspect of our relationship" (this was while we were still living together - come to think of it, it was almost like the I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You speech in different words), she went on the sites and started meeting this current set of people and going on outings with them. I thought she'd be amenable to purging these dating site buddies after we'd started working on things, but not so much. I've resolved to stop arguing over it with her, but it's not easy.

I'm so sorry, Robsia.  I really hope that things work out with Mac.


----------



## CantSitStill

Gosh soulpotato, you are in a toxic relationship. Yes you messed up but she is not putting any effort into R. I know it's gotta be hurtful for you. I know that I'm not there to see what's going on and I am not a therapist but I believe you need to break it off. Give her time to figure out what the hell she wants before getting involved with her at all. It make take her years and by then you may be done with her. You need to move on..sounds weird but I think you should do the 180 on her. Wow, I never thought I would tell a WS that. I might be wrong. There are two sides to every story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

So, she went on dating sites first, then you went on dating sites because she did.

But you took it one step further and actually had something physical.

But she still wants to hang about with these men she met on dating sites? And yet SHE was the one who starting looking elsewhere first. Did she actually meet up with any of these guys before you cheated? or was it just window-shopping?


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## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Gosh soulpotato, you are in a toxic relationship. Yes you messed up but she is not putting any effort into R. I know it's gotta be hurtful for you. I know that I'm not there to see what's going on and I am not a therapist but I believe you need to break it off. Give her time to figure out what the hell she wants before getting involved with her at all. It make take her years and by then you may be done with her. You need to move on..sounds weird but I think you should do the 180 on her. Wow, I never thought I would tell a WS that. I might be wrong. There are two sides to every story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am trying to give her time and leeway because I was definitely part of that toxicity before. Now, not so much, though I'm sure I still do or say some things in wrong or hurtful ways. (I am used to toxic environments and relationships, so sometimes it's difficult for me to differentiate what's actually something wrong and what's just me.) 

It is extremely hurtful for me.  I cry all the time and can barely get to work some days. When I do get to work, I can't concentrate a lot of the time. I've been so depressed. I just want this to work out, but that possibility seems to get more distant with every passing day. I know I am not an easy person to love or live with, but... Well, I know that you're probably right. I want to make certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that I give her the chance to decide to make this work. The 180 is sounding like a good idea. I think it will be coming up soon if things don't really change in the next few weeks.  Thank you for your advice, CSS. 

It's true there are two sides, but I feel that things aren't right, and anyone I've asked in person agrees that it's a bad situation that isn't sustainable and that GF is not really invested right now (including the therapist). Years ago, GF was the only person who gave me a chance, even when other people would have told her to steer clear or walk away. I'm doing my best to return that to her now. I'm seeing the writing on the wall, but trying to be sure that my eyes aren't deceiving me - beyond a shadow of a doubt.

(I tried to reply to Calvin's message but it said his box was full.)


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> So, she went on dating sites first, then you went on dating sites because she did.


Yes. I know it's confusing. My OWs were not through dating sites and were separate from the dating site stuff that happened when we were separated. (And the emotional escalation that happened with the last remaining OW happened while we were separated as well, but GF still found it extremely upsetting, which I can understand. That was mostly what OW emailed to GF.)



Robsia said:


> But you took it one step further and actually had something physical.


NO! It never went physical. My affairs were EAs.



Robsia said:


> But she still wants to hang about with these men she met on dating sites? And yet SHE was the one who starting looking elsewhere first. Did she actually meet up with any of these guys before you cheated? or was it just window-shopping?


Women.  Yes, she was meeting up with them, and still wants to retain the right to hang out with them. While she hasn't hung out with them for a bit, she's still talking to them. I think she hasn't been hanging out with them lately because she says she is too busy and too tired for people in general.

This dating site stuff was after I cheated.


----------



## Robsia

OIC - I thought she was still wanting to hang around men.

Why was she meeting women on a dating site?


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## Mrs_Mathias

Soul and the GF are both female.  It's a same sex relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Soul and the GF are both female.  It's a same sex relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then I take back everything I said about 'friends of opposite sex' and replace with 'friends of same sex' for them.... continue.


----------



## Robsia

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Soul and the GF are both female.  It's a same sex relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh - I see.

Sorry, soulpotato. I made a small-minded, heterosexual assumption.

In that case, definitely not acceptable then.


----------



## CantSitStill

Soulpotato, I really feel bad for you. Altho you had an EA I believe your GF is just not giving a crap about you and is totally disrespecting you..yes you did a bad wrong thing but you have given your all to make up for it and she seems to not give a crap. Do you have self esteem issues? You said something about having some kind of mental problems earlier. What are they? You say no one accepted you but her. Please realize that you should never depend on other people for your own happiness, it is not fair to the other person. You need to learn how to love yourself so that you can be in a good healthy relationship. 

Anyway I came here to ask a question...Calvin asked me to wake him up in a half hour but well...he is finally asleep, he's laying on my lap and from his breathing I can tell he's finally sleeping good. He had to get up at 2:50 this morning. It's been 45 min but I feel he really needs this rest. Am I bad? Am I wrong for not waking him up? He's on my lap and it feels nice. I hate to wake him when he's so exhausted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

russell28 said:


> Then I take back everything I said about 'friends of opposite sex' and replace with 'friends of same sex' for them.... continue.


You approach could be very lonely for a bisexual!

Beyond that the whole opposite sex friends things has been discussed often enough to not bother rehashing here.


----------



## CantSitStill

Btw Soulpotato, I also have thought about an easy way to commit suicide but my reasons are so that I will no longer be a burden to Calvin...this way he would be better off financially and mentally not have to make a choice.. he has flip flopped a lot about whether or not we belong together. He has been in so much pain over this that I thought it may make his life easier. I hate that he hates his life and that he is so miserable and that the one and only person he can count on betrayed him. I hate what I did to him so much that I hate myself. But I know he doesn't want me dead and that he loves me even if at tjmes he can't stand me. I also know my kids, my siblings,friends everyone would be devistated if I did that. I have made a difference in people's lives in a positive way and want to continue to do so. PM me if you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Oh and I'll make sure calvin empties his mailbox,sorry about that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## margrace

soulpotato said:


> GF wants to keep the people she met on the dating sites as friends. Thinks I'm controlling and irrational that I don't like that...I tried to insist that such connections were dangerous, but GF points out that she's not like me, so there's no risk (even though she also has boundary problems and has allowed people to cross them in unacceptable ways while still maintaining contact). This is one of the things we fought over in therapy. I feel it's unfair and that we're living by two different sets of rules.


ohhh no, no, no.... that's not fair at all.



> It is extremely hurtful for me.  I cry all the time and can barely get to work some days. When I do get to work, I can't concentrate a lot of the time. I've been so depressed. I just want this to work out, but that possibility seems to get more distant with every passing day. I know I am not an easy person to love or live with, but...Years ago, GF was the only person who gave me a chance, even when other people would have told her to steer clear or walk away. I'm doing my best to return that to her now.


what's not easy to love about _you_? you're here trying to understand her and yourself and what needs to happen to save the relationship... you're taking responsibility for the A and also for your part in the previous "toxicity," as you called it. unfortunately it seems like she's still _doing_ the toxicity  -- the two-sets-of-rules, etc stuff is messed up. 

i appreciate your wanting to give GF and the relationship every chance, but the more you tell us, the clearer it seems that GF is acting out in any old way she wants to without any regard for fairness or what it's doing to you. so i'm with you and the other posters who are saying, it's time to put some limits around that....


----------



## russell28

Wazza said:


> You approach could be very lonely for a bisexual!
> 
> Beyond that the whole opposite sex friends things has been discussed often enough to not bother rehashing here.


Wasn't trying to derail, was saying how friends you could become attached to, from dating site, sounds dangerous.. Thought it was on topic. Didn't intend to offend anyone. Please carry on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Yawnnnn....still a little tired,nap did me some good.
I know the Hawks game will really wake me up.
Soul p,I asked CSS if she wanted to come home and work on us.
It was harder that I thought,CSS proved how much she loves me and did all the right things.
Yes I triggered and flip-floped quite a bit but I had and still have my lifting to do also.
Berating her and punishing her all the time would't work anf its not the way I want it.
Some triggers were pretty bad and I would want out,CSS had a lot of patience and rode it out.
I needed her to do that. 
Both have to actively work on it and keep at it if its going to work.
A BS who really wants R has to forgive and give their spouce a shot.
Its only fair,if your gf has had six months to decide if she wants to R?
She should know by now,dont get strung along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It's a dilemma... Hawks game and Falling Skies....we recorded it last night and didn't watch it yet...
Think we will be pausing and going back and forth
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> Oh - I see.
> 
> Sorry, soulpotato. I made a small-minded, heterosexual assumption.
> 
> In that case, definitely not acceptable then.


No worries, I understand. 

I'm glad it's not just me thinking so.


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato, I really feel bad for you. Altho you had an EA I believe your GF is just not giving a crap about you and is totally disrespecting you..yes you did a bad wrong thing but you have given your all to make up for it and she seems to not give a crap. Do you have self esteem issues? You said something about having some kind of mental problems earlier. What are they? You say no one accepted you but her. Please realize that you should never depend on other people for your own happiness, it is not fair to the other person. You need to learn how to love yourself so that you can be in a good healthy relationship.


3 overlapping EAs, of varying emotional levels.  She says she still feels love for me, but I'm having a lot of trouble seeing it, especially lately. I know I've put her through hell, I just want her to tell me honestly and directly if she wants to R with me or not, and to not treat me badly. She doesn't understand why I feel the need for a commitment. (Disrespect has been a problem for ages.) 

I have major self-esteem and self-worth issues. And high-functioning BPD (somewhere past mild, but not quite to the middle of the severity range). BPD brings with it a whole slew of issues. I've been in therapy for the last 5 months doing DBT to train me how to cope and deal with my emotions, how to regulate myself, learn distress tolerance, etc. It is REALLY hard, but I've improved a lot. 

Oh, and the therapy and DBT are supposed to help me stop needing external validation to define me, approve me, etc. I know it's not fair and is a lot of pressure to put on someone.  Also working on getting healthier and liking myself. I haven't made much progress on that last bit. I suspect it will be hardest. 



CantSitStill said:


> Anyway I came here to ask a question...Calvin asked me to wake him up in a half hour but well...he is finally asleep, he's laying on my lap and from his breathing I can tell he's finally sleeping good. He had to get up at 2:50 this morning. It's been 45 min but I feel he really needs this rest. Am I bad? Am I wrong for not waking him up? He's on my lap and it feels nice. I hate to wake him when he's so exhausted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Awww... As long as he's not missing something important, seems fine.


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## calvin

I can see being six months into R and then saying I cant do this,I can see the flip-flopping during R.
I just dont see taking six months to decide if someone wants to ATTEMPT R.
I dont get that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> 3 overlapping EAs, of varying emotional levels.  She says she still feels love for me, but I'm having a lot of trouble seeing it, especially lately. I know I've put her through hell, I just want her to tell me honestly and directly if she wants to R with me or not, and to not treat me badly. She doesn't understand why I feel the need for a commitment. (Disrespect has been a problem for ages.)
> 
> I have major self-esteem and self-worth issues. And high-functioning BPD (somewhere past mild, but not quite to the middle of the severity range). BPD brings with it a whole slew of issues. I've been in therapy for the last 5 months doing DBT to train me how to cope and deal with my emotions, how to regulate myself, learn distress tolerance, etc. It is REALLY hard, but I've improved a lot.
> 
> Oh, and the therapy and DBT are supposed to help me stop needing external validation to define me, approve me, etc. I know it's not fair and is a lot of pressure to put on someone.  Also working on getting healthier and liking myself. I haven't made much progress on that last bit. I suspect it will be hardest.
> 
> 
> 
> Awww... As long as he's not missing something important, seems fine.


I'm tired but awake,bfree's Bruins are whipping my Hawks ass right now....ugh.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Soulpotato, I have always had this problem where I feel I need everyone's approval. It's because I felt like no matter how hard I tried my mother never was satisfied. I was called stupid by her all the time. Even as an adult she says things like "oh that's stupid". Or "oh you are so stupid". It hurts and so I have always tried to please everyone and it never works very well...so then I beat myself up. I found a book at the library called Approval Addiction by Joyce Meyer. She is a Christian preacher but it really did help me. I still strugglewith the self esteem because I was fired from my last job after only being there 3 months. The letter said a lot of real bad things. I didn't do a good job evidently even tho I tried so hard and was so determined to learn t job. Now it's hard to not look at myself as a total loser. I am very very emotional and have severe anxiety. I have had panic arc
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato, I have always had this problem where I feel I need everyone's approval. It's because I felt like no matter how hard I tried my mother never was satisfied. I was called stupid by her all the time. Even as an adult she says things like "oh that's stupid". Or "oh you are so stupid". It hurts and so I have always tried to please everyone and it never works very well...so then I beat myself up. I found a book at the library called Approval Addiction by Joyce Meyer. She is a Christian preacher but it really did help me. I still strugglewith the self esteem because I was fired from my last job after only being there 3 months. The letter said a lot of real bad things. I didn't do a good job evidently even tho I tried so hard and was so determined to learn t job. Now it's hard to not look at myself as a total loser. I am very very emotional and have severe anxiety. I have had panic arc
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its what I and the kids think about you.
To us you are awesome,you have our respect and we love the hell out of you.
We always will,we need you in our lives.
Would'nt be much of a life without you.
You belong with me and I you.
We both know this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Panic attacks since I was I think 3 yrs old? Never told my parents because I was scared. I thought they were seizures or something real bad and since I'm such a worry wart I didn't tell anyone. As an adult, I've been in the hospital emergency room a few times because I thought I was having a heart attack or dying. They were panic attacks. I feel your GF needs to be more supportive of your emotional needs an0d your BPD. It makes mg heart break every time I read a post from you. : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

margrace said:


> ohhh no, no, no.... that's not fair at all.
> 
> what's not easy to love about _you_?


I was really perplexed that the therapist seemed to think it should be fine. :scratchhead:

Thank you, that is REALLY sweet of you to say.  But I can be difficult when I'm upset. I'm also more sensitive and emotionally reactive than most people, and need validation and reassurance on a fairly regular basis (no continuous experience of people). People would call me high-maintenance, LOL.



margrace said:


> you're here trying to understand her and yourself and what needs to happen to save the relationship... you're taking responsibility for the A and also for your part in the previous "toxicity," as you called it. unfortunately it seems like she's still _doing_ the toxicity  -- the two-sets-of-rules, etc stuff is messed up.


I'm trying to do everything in my power. Thank you for recognizing my efforts.  I said something the other day about things being toxic and she got angry. I agree that she seems stuck in the "old program". I just can't make her see it.



margrace said:


> i appreciate your wanting to give GF and the relationship every chance, but the more you tell us, the clearer it seems that GF is acting out in any old way she wants to without any regard for fairness or what it's doing to you. so i'm with you and the other posters who are saying, it's time to put some limits around that....


She was acting more caring and positive, back in April...(but still acting out, just not as much).  I was hoping that it meant things were improving, but it was short-lived. The thing is, GF thinks she's being more than fair to me and that there's mostly nothing wrong with a lot of the things I bring to her attention - so she dismisses them. (This has been the status quo for years.) And I am grateful she is still talking to me even after moving out, and grateful for her giving me the chance to prove myself to her (now I'm wondering if I ever really had that?), but I can't agree with her on how she sees things. She can't agree with me, either!

I have been trying to put limits on it, but she resists being "controlled" and it seems to always make her angry when I try to discuss these things with her. She thinks most of it is just in my head. I'll keep trying, though.

Thank you, margrace.


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> I can see being six months into R and then saying I cant do this,I can see the flip-flopping during R.
> I just dont see taking six months to decide if someone wants to ATTEMPT R.
> I dont get that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think GF wants to feel sure that R will work before she agrees to it. I told her repeatedly that there are no guarantees, even if things seem good. I also said that things definitely wouldn't work out if we didn't both go in 100%. She says that she can't commit without seeing more stability, and seeing how things go after the next few therapy sessions (in which she's going to ask for "more compromise" from me).


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## Wazza

russell28 said:


> Wasn't trying to derail, was saying how friends you could become attached to, from dating site, sounds dangerous.. Thought it was on topic. Didn't intend to offend anyone. Please carry on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry Russell, didn't mean to imply it was off topic.

I believe in boundaries with OSF, I don't believe you can't have them. That was all I was saying.

And making those friends on a dating site is doubtless something of a red flag.


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## Robsia

I was talking to BigMac on the phone last night. We didn't talk for long as I had a blinder of a headache and had to go to bed.

But one thing we talked about was my fear that if we did move back in together, that it would go back to being the way it was, the arguments, and the nastiness.

He did say that he really didn't want that either. Who would?

So he is willing to make the changes, and so am I. He wants it to work, and so do I. Question is - _can_ we?

And the only way we can know that is to do it - and that is the scary part.


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## Acabado

soulpotato. It goes more than the sense of entitlement she's displaying with the double standard thing with the dating sites.
The anger issues is to me the meat here. If she refuses to face her own issues and decide to change she's not going to be a GF for you, for anyone. And she's really full of excuses.
I'm glad to hear you are so commited to deal with your issues so hard. You must, regardless the outcome with your GF.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Robsia said:


> I was talking to BigMac on the phone last night. We didn't talk for long as I had a blinder of a headache and had to go to bed.
> 
> But one thing we talked about was my fear that if we did move back in together, that it would go back to being the way it was, the arguments, and the nastiness.
> 
> He did say that he really didn't want that either. Who would?
> 
> So he is willing to make the changes, and so am I. He wants it to work, and so do I. Question is - _can_ we?
> 
> And the only way we can know that is to do it - and that is the scary part.


If the desire and willingness to work is there then I think there's no reason why it can't work. Relationships take work anyway. Maybe you both took what you had for granted. I don't think either of you do now though. You both know how bad it can get so I don't see it going back to the way it was when you know how good it can be. Ask any of the couples in this thread if they'd prefer to get lazy and backside. I doubt you'd find one.


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato, I have always had this problem where I feel I need everyone's approval. It's because I felt like no matter how hard I tried my mother never was satisfied. I was called stupid by her all the time. Even as an adult she says things like "oh that's stupid". Or "oh you are so stupid". It hurts and so I have always tried to please everyone and it never works very well...so then I beat myself up. I found a book at the library called Approval Addiction by Joyce Meyer. She is a Christian preacher but it really did help me. I still strugglewith the self esteem because I was fired from my last job after only being there 3 months. The letter said a lot of real bad things. I didn't do a good job evidently even tho I tried so hard and was so determined to learn t job. Now it's hard to not look at myself as a total loser. I am very very emotional and have severe anxiety. I have had panic arc
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been driven by that need for approval all my life - to very destructive extremes. And since I struggle with unstable identity and self-image, it's easy to lose myself in what other people want and very hard to hear my own voice. Sounds like you grew up in an invalidating environment, too.  I'm sorry that you had to have those experiences. Makes it tough to have self-esteem or self-confidence. My mother was very critical, controlling, and image-oriented. It was all about making things look good, not what was real.


----------



## soulpotato

Acabado said:


> soulpotato. It goes more than the sense of entitlement she's displaying with the double standard thing with the dating sites.
> The anger issues is to me the meat here. If she refuses to face her own issues and decide to change she's not going to be a GF for you, for anyone. And she's really full of excuses.
> I'm glad to hear you are so commited to deal with your issues so hard. You must, regardless the outcome with your GF.


Thank you, Acabado. I agree that the anger issue is in the top five. But the emotional detachment and inability to express affection consistently is also a big one. Avoidance is another one. I just received a beautiful card from her in the mail. Emotive and loving, telling me how special I am to her. It totally surprised me, because it is not evident in actual interactions with her or the majority of our communication in any medium. While we were together, I would wait for these cards (maybe 2-3 a year) because they were the primary conduits of real sentiment or tenderness from her. But I cannot live on greeting cards alone.  Even so, writing a card like that exhausts her. She says it takes a lot of concentration.


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## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Panic attacks since I was I think 3 yrs old? Never told my parents because I was scared. I thought they were seizures or something real bad and since I'm such a worry wart I didn't tell anyone. As an adult, I've been in the hospital emergency room a few times because I thought I was having a heart attack or dying. They were panic attacks. I feel your GF needs to be more supportive of your emotional needs an0d your BPD. It makes mg heart break every time I read a post from you. : (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I always feel terrible for people who have panic attacks, because I cannot imagine how awful they must be. I have anxiety and know the kind of profound discomfort it causes me (my heart races, I start shaking, etc), so to magnify that up to a panic attack... 

GF feels I need to be more supportive of any possible mental health issues that she has, and feels she has been more than supportive of me. I feel that I am very supportive of her, and that she probably did the best she knew how to do when we were together (but unfortunately some of that ended up being enabling). I think she is completely burnt out at the thought of being supportive towards me, or maybe doesn't know how. I try to show her and tell her what would work, but it doesn't come naturally to her and so it doesn't generally happen.

Aww, I don't want to make you sad.


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## Acabado

soulpotato said:


> Thank you, Acabado. I agree that the anger issue is in the top five. But the emotional detachment and inability to express affection consistently is also a big one. Avoidance is another one. I just received a beautiful card from her in the mail. Emotive and loving, telling me how special I am to her. It totally surprised me, because it is not evident in actual interactions with her or the majority of our communication in any medium. While we were together, I would wait for these cards (maybe 2-3 a year) because they were the primary conduits of real sentiment or tenderness from her. But I cannot live on greeting cards alone.  Even so, writing a card like that exhausts her. She says it takes a lot of concentration.


Hope you don get offended by this.
Concentration my a$$. Cards are cheap. 
It's not you can't fail but... you love every minute, everyday, by your actions, by showing affection, by not going nuts every time they can't get their ways, by not puting excuses about exams while moving the target and raising your partner standars while lowering theirs, by showing respect deleting those BFF from dating sites, by making feel safe the one you pretend to love (aparently only by cards)...
Tell her to stop sending cards and start - actually - loving you as she claims to do black over white.
Actions.


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## soulpotato

Acabado said:


> Hope you don get offended by this.
> Concentration my a$$. Cards are cheap.
> It's not you can't fail but... you love every minute, everyday, by your actions, by showing affection, by not going nuts every time they can't get their ways, by not puting excuses about exams while moving the target and raising your partner standars while lowering theirs, by showing respect deleting those BFF from dating sites, by making feel safe the one you pretend to love (aparently only by cards)...
> Tell her to stop sending cards and start - actually - loving you as she claims to do black over white.
> Actions.


Not the least bit offended. You are so right. What she writes in these cards needs to be in our everyday lives, not just for special occasions. This is an excellent post, Acabado. I'm going to save it. You summarized and wrapped it up so well that it brought tears to my eyes.


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## Acabado

soulpotato said:


> ... but it doesn't come naturally to her and so it doesn't generally happen.


If it doesn't come naturaly you practice, otherwise you are stuck with your issues forever. I was an horrible husband, and a drunk and a drug addict. I become a "decent" husband and loving dad.
She can change... if she wants it enough. You are doing this hard, specialized therapy, what about her?


----------



## soulpotato

Acabado said:


> If it doesn't come naturaly you practice, otherwise you are stuck with your issues forever. I was an horrible husband, and a drunk and a drug addict. I become a "decent" husband and loving dad.
> She can change... if she wants it enough. You are doing this hard, specialized therapy, what about her?


That's what I tried to tell her - practice, and it will become easier and more natural, but she says she might not be capable. Which I find upsetting, because I am doing things that feel unnatural to me.

You're right, but I'm not sure that she wants to change enough. She had a few sessions here and there, but only started going regularly a couple of weeks ago. She has also come to my therapy sessions with me the last few weeks because I told her things were taking a nosedive and that it was essential. But it has taken her a long time to get serious about it.


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow Soulpotato, your mom sounds like my mom! She treats my dad like crap, always yelling at him and getting him all flustered. She is ALWAYS right in her mind. It's horrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Wow Soulpotato, your mom sounds like my mom! She treats my dad like crap, always yelling at him and getting him all flustered. She is ALWAYS right in her mind. It's horrible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS's Mom is horrible,the verbal and physical abuse was sick,I do not care for that woman at all.
She still thought she could treat CSS that way after we got married,I would'nt let her.
I have never seen a more hateful person in my life,she really did a number on CSS.
She hates me because I stand up to her.
At our wedding reception she told me she would have the marriage annulled.
I hate her for what she did to CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

She actually held a knife to CSS's throat a few time and has dragged her by her hair.
She puts on a show at church showing people what a good woman she is.
Just incredible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

Acabado said:


> Hope you don get offended by this.
> Concentration my a$$. Cards are cheap.
> It's not you can't fail but... you love every minute, everyday, by your actions, by showing affection, by not going nuts every time they can't get their ways, by not puting excuses about exams while moving the target and raising your partner standars while lowering theirs, by showing respect deleting those BFF from dating sites, by making feel safe the one you pretend to love (aparently only by cards)...
> Tell her to stop sending cards and start - actually - loving you as she claims to do black over white.
> Actions.
> 
> ***
> 
> If it doesn't come naturaly you practice, otherwise you are stuck with your issues forever. I was an horrible husband, and a drunk and a drug addict. I become a "decent" husband and loving dad.
> She can change... if she wants it enough. You are doing this hard, specialized therapy, what about her?


awesome points, acabado, thank you! makes me think. just because something comes naturally doesn't mean it's good or the right thing to do... in fact, lots of times, those "natural" things came from our not-so-healthy childhood families and they are exactly the problem.

yet so often we (or our partners) will resist trying something new and we defend that by insisting, oh, but that seems so forced, that's not natural, that's not me, etc etc.

well, YES, that's the whole point -- to consciously learn *and consciously try* new relationship behaviors that feel unnatural and risky at first (because we aren't used to being healthy loving open partners  )

that's why problems don't get solved unless we work at them, and that's why it's called work. i need to hear this as much as anyone.


----------



## Robsia

I just had my MC appt. Because there were abusive elements in our relationship, the way they work is to see us both separately at first and go through a set questionnaire. Then the counsellor talks to her superior and, based on our answers to the questions, they decide what to do with us, whether to see us together, or separately, or refer us to another agency who can help us.

So BigMac had his two weeks ago. I would have had mine last week, but it was the day of my operation so it was put back to tonight.

It was interesting. It was not pleasant to think back to that time, to all the things we said and did to each other. I had to admit that I've been drinking a little too much since I found out about the affairs. To remind myself, I read through some old diary entries and blog posts I made during our marriage of some of the things he had done and said. It wasn't pleasant reading.

I do believe that he genuinely wants to change though; that he recognises his behaviour was abusive, which he never would admit at the time. And that is the first step.

We have to wait now while they decide what to do with us. We have an appt booked for two weeks today, either together or just one of us, depending on what they decide.


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## CEL

calvin said:


> She actually held a knife to CSS's throat a few time and has dragged her by her hair.
> She puts on a show at church showing people what a good woman she is.
> Just incredible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My girl won't allow any of my family over to our house except my mom "the only that apologized". To this day it brings tears to my eyes that SOMEONE stood up for me and had my back. Sorry did not want to derail. Just wanted to give you props Calvin. Like I said it is a moment in my life I will never forget.


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## calvin

CEL said:


> My girl won't allow any of my family over to our house except my mom "the only that apologized". To this day it brings tears to my eyes that SOMEONE stood up for me and had my back. Sorry did not want to derail. Just wanted to give you props Calvin. Like I said it is a moment in my life I will never forget.


Messed up,isnt it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

calvin said:


> Messed up,isnt it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah just bat shyte crazy messed up. The really screwy part is that if a stranger did any of that crap to someone they would go to jail but since it is family no one ever tells. Just crazy crap, the other part is that the tormentor gets away with it while the victims have to deal with the scars and emotional crap for the rest of their lives.


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## jupiter13

Amen to that and it just keeps going....


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## cpacan

Hi all Reconcilers, call for help. I could use your thoughts and input on a few things. I'm nearly at 2 years and 2 months now as some of you may know, and doing well most of the time - still thinking about what the h*** went wrong in my perfect life for about 4-6 hours a day, hmmm... 

No, I think I'm getting quite good at coping and working out my thoughts. This week I have identified a few thoughts that I still can't wrap my head around, maybe some of you could provide a different perspective or some insight. You almost always can

The thoughts re-appeared when I read my wife's letter to me last week. She mentioned our wedding day as the best day of her life, a very special day to remember. She also mentioned walking down memory lane thinking about all our fantastic holidays.

So here we go.

1. 
The wedding was actually a fantastic day for me too. The perfect day, though I've never been so nervous in my whole life, my speach to my bride and thinking about the song I had to sing for her ("If Tomoorrow Never Comes" accompanied by a single piano player).

Thinking about this particular day in 2005 makes me.... I don't know how to describe it... uncomfortable in a way, some kind of a trigger. She knew by that time that infidelity was part of the package (ONS 1992) - I didn't, and only 5 years later the major betrayal came. I can't seem to shake this feeling off me, and when I try, I tell myself "yeah, but..."

2. 
The holidays. They're precious memories for me too. Except for one. A one in a lifetime holiday in Euro Disney Paris with the kids. Late summer 2010, her affair had just escalated to PA a month before. 

Every time I think about it, I also seem to think about where her thoughts must have been that week, compartmentalizing or not. A tiny angry feeling arises and I have to shut it down quickly so I don't spiral into a place that I don't wanna go.

These two triggers... I was just about to ask "What's wrong with me?" - but I know that nothing is wrong with me, I am who I am, and that's perfectly OK. Any ideas on how to handle them?

3.
This is no trigger, just a thought. My wife offered in her letter to me to do whatever it takes to get us (and me) through this. It was emphasized. 

I think she was surpriced to hear a few weeks ago, that I wasn't able to think long term in regards to finances, insurances and holidays. Consequences hit her. I plan to tell her what I need to think a bit more long term. Her commitment to do the work. She must find in herself the deeper "why?" Uncover her fundamental beliefs that made this possible. It's not going to be easy for her, she's not a deep thinker (unlike me, so we complement each other perfectly)

I think she'll ask for some kind of guidance and doesn't want to spend on IC (in her words "psycho-babble") if she can avoid it.

I tend to let the thoughts run wild myself from time to time, so in order to put the mindwork in some kind of structure, does it make any sense to divide the reasons/thoughts/beliefs into two groups: 1. The catalysists/motivators and 2. The missing inhibitors that didn't stop her from acting on the motivators.

Example. 
1a. Need for external validation - the attention made me feel good (examine where does it come from)
1b. Desire for different/exiting sex
1c. etc. etc.

2a. Didn't think about consequences
2b. Lack of respect
2c. Poor boundary skills
etc etc.

... or whatever she may come up with. Some sort of guideline "What did you think you would accomplish with the affair?" and "Why didn't you stop before it reached destruction level?)

Do you think it would help or would it be better/more maturing to just say "go figure it out"?

Thoughts on one or more of the above?


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## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Wow Soulpotato, your mom sounds like my mom! She treats my dad like crap, always yelling at him and getting him all flustered. She is ALWAYS right in her mind. It's horrible.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My mom has rewritten a lot of the events in her mind. But the stuff Calvin said...that's just horrifying. My mother never physically attacked me or threatened my life.  Mine was manipulative and emotionally abusive (and got us into dangerous situations when I was a minor), but after I stopped talking to her for several years and said I wouldn't have a relationship with her unless she became a better person, she went to therapy. But she definitely gave me wrong ideas about how to have relationships and what was okay or healthy with people. That's part of what I'm trying to fix to improve things with GF.

I'm glad Calvin has your back.


----------



## soulpotato

margrace said:


> awesome points, acabado, thank you! makes me think. *just because something comes naturally doesn't mean it's good or the right thing to do... in fact, lots of times, those "natural" things came from our not-so-healthy childhood families and they are exactly the problem.
> 
> yet so often we (or our partners) will resist trying something new and we defend that by insisting, oh, but that seems so forced, that's not natural, that's not me, etc etc.*


Margrace, this was GREAT. Awesome point. I brought it up in joint therapy last night when the therapist and GF started talking about her limits and what's not natural for her...I'm like, "You don't UNDERSTAND." I detailed the emotional barrenness that had been a good part of my relationship with GF over the years, and then brought in the point you speak of above. I think it helped. The conversation seemed to turn a bit after that. Not to mention me emphatically stating that I cannot live with a continuation of how the relationship was. NO WAY. I think the therapist finally got how emotionally withdrawn GF tends to be. FINALLY. So she told her to try, and I'm not allowed to complain about any lack, but instead just try praising GF when she does something that fits the bill. I said I'd tried that for years in the beginning of the relationship and it hadn't done any good, but...I guess we will try it again and just hope it has some effect.


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> My mom has rewritten a lot of the events in her mind. But the stuff Calvin said...that's just horrifying. My mother never physically attacked me or threatened my life.  Mine was manipulative and emotionally abusive (and got us into dangerous situations when I was a minor), but after I stopped talking to her for several years and said I wouldn't have a relationship with her unless she became a better person, she went to therapy. But she definitely gave me wrong ideas about how to have relationships and what was okay or healthy with people. That's part of what I'm trying to fix to improve things with GF.
> 
> I'm glad Calvin has your back.


No one messes with my CSS,they will have to go through me and they
wont make it through me either,I love her way too much to let anyone hurt her.
Sorry to hear how your Mom treated you Sp,parents should always be
Someone we can count on and make us feel safe and loved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

soulpotato said:


> Margrace, this was GREAT. Awesome point. I brought it up in joint therapy last night when the therapist and GF started talking about her limits and what's not natural for her...I'm like, "You don't UNDERSTAND." I detailed the emotional barrenness that had been a good part of my relationship with GF over the years, and then brought in the point you speak of above. I think it helped. The conversation seemed to turn a bit after that. Not to mention me emphatically stating that I cannot live with a continuation of how the relationship was. NO WAY. I think the therapist finally got how emotionally withdrawn GF tends to be. FINALLY. So she told her to try, and I'm not allowed to complain about any lack, but instead just try praising GF when she does something that fits the bill. I said I'd tried that for years in the beginning of the relationship and it hadn't done any good, but...I guess we will try it again and just hope it has some effect.


sounds like a really promising session ... thanks again, acabado!

so GF expressed some intention to actively *try*?

and if she does, i'm with your therapist about affirming her for that. stepping out of your comfort zone -- the one that you've hidden in for your whole life -- is really hard, and when somebody finally sets foot on that path in a *visible* way, kudos to them


----------



## SomedayDig

cpacan said:


> 2.
> The holidays. They're precious memories for me too. Except for one. A one in a lifetime holiday in Euro Disney Paris with the kids. Late summer 2010, her affair had just escalated to PA a month before.
> 
> Every time I think about it, I also seem to think about where her thoughts must have been that week, compartmentalizing or not. A tiny angry feeling arises and I have to shut it down quickly so I don't spiral into a place that I don't wanna go.
> 
> These two triggers... I was just about to ask "What's wrong with me?" - but I know that nothing is wrong with me, I am who I am, and that's perfectly OK. Any ideas on how to handle them?


Uggg. Wow. Yeah, Regret had been in her affair for a year when we had our first ever visit to Disney Orlando. I look at every picture...not just of that one, but of vacations for 5 years and sometimes feel a bit of hurt.

We can't erase this stuff. The only thing we can do with it after the fact is look at it, put it in it's box and file it away with all of the other painful memories of our lives. (Of course, only AFTER dealing with it!)




cpacan said:


> 3.
> This is no trigger, just a thought. My wife offered in her letter to me to do whatever it takes to get us (and me) through this. It was emphasized.
> 
> I think she was surpriced to hear a few weeks ago, that I wasn't able to think long term in regards to finances, insurances and holidays. Consequences hit her. I plan to tell her what I need to think a bit more long term. Her commitment to do the work. She must find in herself the deeper "why?" Uncover her fundamental beliefs that made this possible. It's not going to be easy for her, she's not a deep thinker (unlike me, so we complement each other perfectly)
> 
> I think she'll ask for some kind of guidance and doesn't want to spend on IC (in her words "psycho-babble") if she can avoid it.
> 
> I tend to let the thoughts run wild myself from time to time, so in order to put the mindwork in some kind of structure, does it make any sense to divide the reasons/thoughts/beliefs into two groups: 1. The catalysists/motivators and 2. The missing inhibitors that didn't stop her from acting on the motivators.
> 
> Example.
> 1a. Need for external validation - the attention made me feel good (examine where does it come from)
> 1b. Desire for different/exiting sex
> 1c. etc. etc.
> 
> 2a. Didn't think about consequences
> 2b. Lack of respect
> 2c. Poor boundary skills
> etc etc.
> 
> ... or whatever she may come up with. Some sort of guideline "What did you think you would accomplish with the affair?" and "Why didn't you stop before it reached destruction level?)
> 
> Do you think it would help or would it be better/more maturing to just say "go figure it out"?
> 
> Thoughts on one or more of the above?


Psychobabble...yes, I believe I used that word somewhere within the first 10 pages of this thread. Unfortunately, at the time EI thought I was talking about her :rofl:

However, that psychobabble can help us when it comes to sorting out the things in our heads. We like to all think that we can do it on our own, and we do most of the time. But there are other times when someone needs to help us a bit. It's tough to let our guard down, but I promise that if one can trust a good IC, they will get tons out of it. I just had my last appointment with mine yesterday. Hard to see him when we're moving 1300 miles away! He's awesome. I'm lucky to have found him when I needed him. 

It can be rather difficult for us to search for the deeper 'why' within ourselves. It's not always for malicious reasons, though. It's just that...well...it's US and it really is hard to be that subjective about certain things. I mean, if one can compartmentalize something as large as an affair, do you honestly think they are going to be able to look in the mirror alone and get all of the answers?

I like that you're thinking about how you can help. That is good. It shows a great deal of maturity about the horrible topic at hand and it shows a great deal of control and even respect. Yes. Respect. See, one thing that can sometimes get muddied out in TAMland's CWI is that there _always_ needs to be mutual respect. It doesn't just go one way or the other way on a whim. It needs to be there always.

Especially, in times like these.


----------



## margrace

cpacan said:


> I think I'm getting quite good at coping and working out my thoughts. This week I have identified a few thoughts that I still can't wrap my head around, maybe some of you could provide a different perspective or some insight. You almost always can
> 
> 1. The wedding was actually a fantastic day for me too.. thinking about this particular day in 2005 makes me.... I don't know how to describe it... only 5 years later the major betrayal came. I can't seem to shake this feeling off me, and when I try, I tell myself "yeah, but..."
> 
> 2. The holidays. They're precious memories for me too. Except for one....Late summer 2010, her affair had just escalated to PA a month before. Every time I think about it, I also seem to think about where her thoughts must have been that week, compartmentalizing or not. A tiny angry feeling arises and I have to shut it down quickly so I don't spiral into a place that I don't wanna go.
> 
> 3. This is no trigger, just a thought. My wife offered in her letter to me to do whatever it takes to get us (and me) through this....I think she was surpriced to hear a few weeks ago, that I wasn't able to think long term in regards to finances, insurances and holidays.... I plan to tell her what I need to think a bit more long term. Her commitment to do the work. She must find in herself the deeper "why?" ...I think she'll ask for some kind of guidance and doesn't want to spend $ on IC (in her words "psycho-babble") if she can avoid it.


cpacan, here are my thoughts -- but 1 and 2 together are also one of my biggest remaining struggles, so i don't know how helpful it will be....

*#3:* i'm with you here. i hope that your WS can follow through in some way on this one. for me, addressing_ WHY _has been one of the most helpful things that my fWH has done. it's very hard to do for lots of reasons, including the fact that no one likes talking about terrible mistakes that they are ashamed of -- i don't like doing that myself 

another hard part is that there isn't a satisfying rational answer, even when WSs are willing to tackle this conversation. even as the true, legitimate answers are finally coming out, *both* of you (BS and WS) will be thinking things like, "_what?!!! _but _that_ just made our problems worse! but that was so _wrong_! _that's_ the kind of attention that made you feel validated?! _that's_ what love is to you?!" etc.

my H says that what goes through his mind when we talk about this is "what the f**k?!!" 

still, my own experience was, that if WS can soldier through and get to the place that your wife is calling psychobabble, it can really help both of you move forward. understanding how some of my H's issues and blind spots contributed to A -- and how they allowed him to deceive himself at the same time he deceived me -- gave him a place to dig in and be accountable and start working. He started thinking and speaking clearly about himself and his past choices and his future commitments... and seeing those actions on his part helped me. he has written about this in emails that i have saved, and i can re-read them when i need to.

btw, i completely understand the concern about the money for therapy, but i think the right IC/MC could be the best ally and fellow traveler for this journey that your wife could ever find -- especially if she isn't so introspective on her own. (neither was my fWH.) with a teammate like that, i think she could go and start with her own compass points. i think the work will mean more to her that way.

*#1 and #2:* for me, these two fit together and i haven't figured it out yet either (so maybe someone else's input will help me too). 

i'm afraid of almost all memories of the past. i fight them back actively. 

a photograph, walking down a block where we used to live, thinking about vacations or things that used to be good memories.... all i can think of now is, _she_ was the chump, _she_ didn't know, that day wasn't real, _she_ was a person in the matrix. 

it's like i see her as a separate person, someone who is wandering in the dark, and i'm afraid _for_ her and afraid _of_ her. i know what lies down the road just ahead of her, i know where she's headed, where she's leading _me_, and i can't stand to think about it for one more second. 

it's like i have a phobia about my own life 

*cpacan, thank you* -- your post helped me frame this out for myself.


----------



## bfree

cpacan said:


> Hi all Reconcilers, call for help. I could use your thoughts and input on a few things. I'm nearly at 2 years and 2 months now as some of you may know, and doing well most of the time - still thinking about what the h*** went wrong in my perfect life for about 4-6 hours a day, hmmm...
> 
> No, I think I'm getting quite good at coping and working out my thoughts. This week I have identified a few thoughts that I still can't wrap my head around, maybe some of you could provide a different perspective or some insight. You almost always can
> 
> The thoughts re-appeared when I read my wife's letter to me last week. She mentioned our wedding day as the best day of her life, a very special day to remember. She also mentioned walking down memory lane thinking about all our fantastic holidays.
> 
> So here we go.
> 
> 1.
> The wedding was actually a fantastic day for me too. The perfect day, though I've never been so nervous in my whole life, my speach to my bride and thinking about the song I had to sing for her ("If Tomoorrow Never Comes" accompanied by a single piano player).
> 
> Thinking about this particular day in 2005 makes me.... I don't know how to describe it... uncomfortable in a way, some kind of a trigger. She knew by that time that infidelity was part of the package (ONS 1992) - I didn't, and only 5 years later the major betrayal came. I can't seem to shake this feeling off me, and when I try, I tell myself "yeah, but..."
> 
> 2.
> The holidays. They're precious memories for me too. Except for one. A one in a lifetime holiday in Euro Disney Paris with the kids. Late summer 2010, her affair had just escalated to PA a month before.
> 
> Every time I think about it, I also seem to think about where her thoughts must have been that week, compartmentalizing or not. A tiny angry feeling arises and I have to shut it down quickly so I don't spiral into a place that I don't wanna go.
> 
> These two triggers... I was just about to ask "What's wrong with me?" - but I know that nothing is wrong with me, I am who I am, and that's perfectly OK. Any ideas on how to handle them?
> 
> 3.
> This is no trigger, just a thought. My wife offered in her letter to me to do whatever it takes to get us (and me) through this. It was emphasized.
> 
> I think she was surpriced to hear a few weeks ago, that I wasn't able to think long term in regards to finances, insurances and holidays. Consequences hit her. I plan to tell her what I need to think a bit more long term. Her commitment to do the work. She must find in herself the deeper "why?" Uncover her fundamental beliefs that made this possible. It's not going to be easy for her, she's not a deep thinker (unlike me, so we complement each other perfectly)
> 
> I think she'll ask for some kind of guidance and doesn't want to spend on IC (in her words "psycho-babble") if she can avoid it.
> 
> I tend to let the thoughts run wild myself from time to time, so in order to put the mindwork in some kind of structure, does it make any sense to divide the reasons/thoughts/beliefs into two groups: 1. The catalysists/motivators and 2. The missing inhibitors that didn't stop her from acting on the motivators.
> 
> Example.
> 1a. Need for external validation - the attention made me feel good (examine where does it come from)
> 1b. Desire for different/exiting sex
> 1c. etc. etc.
> 
> 2a. Didn't think about consequences
> 2b. Lack of respect
> 2c. Poor boundary skills
> etc etc.
> 
> ... or whatever she may come up with. Some sort of guideline "What did you think you would accomplish with the affair?" and "Why didn't you stop before it reached destruction level?)
> 
> Do you think it would help or would it be better/more maturing to just say "go figure it out"?
> 
> Thoughts on one or more of the above?


Regarding the wedding and holiday memories, I can relate to an extent. I remember some good times with my ex. They're easy to remember because there were so few of them. Anyway I used to think of them and try to envision what was going through her mind at that point because she was already cheating on me. Those thoughts faded away after I got married to my wife. I had a new relationship and the old one was just a memory. Who cares what she thought? It was only important what I thought. But in your case you're still married to her. I think this is a situation where you need to look at what you have now as a completely new marriage. You are both different people therefore your relationship is different. In the end it doesn't really matter what she was thinking and feeling. You should only be concerned with what was and is important for you. She should be concerned that she was able to enjoy her wedding day and holidays knowing what she had and was doing at the time. If that were me I'd wonder if I was completely sane.

That brings me to her pending self discovery. Some people can look inward with no assistance and take a good hard look at themselves. Some people need books or other external cues in order to direct them in their search. And others need feedback and interaction in order to help them stay and continue down the right path. Psychobabble or not if your wife is not good at introspection then she needs to seek out a counselor that can help her to reach her goals. And they must be her goals. If she is not totally committed to finding out the answers she can certainly manipulate the process so that the right questions will never get asked. The trick is not to learn what help you can give her. The trick is finding a way to get her to want to learn and get help.

Edit to add: Is it just me or is it a common trait that those who commit infidelity have difficulty looking inward? Maybe it goes hand in hand with being able to compartmentalize so well.


----------



## russell28

margrace said:


> it's like i see her as a separate person, someone who is wandering in the dark, and i'm afraid _for_ her and afraid _of_ her. i know what lies down the road just ahead of her, i know where she's headed, where she's leading _me_, and i can't stand to think about it for one more second.


Mine was wandering in the dark also... I think of how happy I am that I was able to shine a light on her and show her the way out. I also think of how I not only had this lying cheating person at the time, the AP had her too.. he didn't know the real person, just this made-up phoney lost in the dark version. So while she was leading you.. she was leading them too, and everyone else. For example, it took me a few to realize that the reason my SIL was helping her, was because she filled her head with bull about me and our marriage.. of course. That's not the girl I married, that's the pod person that was confusing me with her deceptions. 

(SIL not welcome in my home until I get an apology.)


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## CantSitStill

Hey guys, we are doing pretty good, wondering how ChangingMe is doing, it's been a long time since we have heard from her...hmmmm. I like updates from all of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

EI and B1 hope you two are good. I want to know please....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mintypeas

hi css we are doing well had a couple of down days last week due to going over the issue of porn. i actually went 5 days without mentioning the ea!! i have forgiven him and i felt a weight lift off me. he is still struggling with his anger towards himself but he now writes down how he feels and goes back and reads it a few days later that seems to help. xxx im so pleased you are doing well that is so good to hear xxx


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## calvin

It gets better minty,hang in there,sometimes it seems like it never will
Just be patient and if he is doing all the right things,you'll know.
Trust and comfort do come back.
Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin has said he has forgiven me, I don't believe it. I guess when he says things like that I feel afraid to accept that it's true because I don't want to feel false hope. Because I know there will be days that he will trigger and say things he don't mean. Like that we don't belong together...I should know by now that he doesn't mean it and that he's triggering. As for forgiving myself...not sure that's possible. I do want to move forward and have a good positive outlook on our future but I also know he can't ever feel completely healed. I wish I could turn back time and dealt with our problems in a healthy way but I can't. I want to fix it and make it all better but it really doesn't work that way. So I accept that he's willing to stay with me and that both of us need to continue to work on ourselves and never take eachother for granted. We will be ok and at least now we treat eachother much better than we used to....sorry if it sounds like I'm babbling. It"s all so hard to explain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin has said he has forgiven me, I don't believe it. I guess when he says things like that I feel afraid to accept that it's true because I don't want to feel false hope. Because I know there will be days that he will trigger and say things he don't mean. Like that we don't belong together...I should know by now that he doesn't mean it and that he's triggering. As for forgiving myself...not sure that's possible. I do want to move forward and have a good positive outlook on our future but I also know he can't ever feel completely healed. I wish I could turn back time and dealt with our problems in a healthy way but I can't. I want to fix it and make it all better but it really doesn't work that way. So I accept that he's willing to stay with me and that both of us need to continue to work on ourselves and never take eachother for granted. We will be ok and at least now we treat eachother much better than we used to....sorry if it sounds like I'm babbling. It"s all so hard to explain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not willing to stay with you,I want to stay and be with you,I love you.
Things are way better,everyone is different in how much time they take
and how they deal with it.
It all follows a certain script yet people deal with it in their own was also.
This is the most comfortable I have felt in 16 months.
It still kinda hurts but I cant stay that way forever and neither can you.
I feel we are almost there and I'm not letting all our hard work go to waste.
Looks good from here. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Love Calvin so much...you guys have no idea how supportive he has been for me this week. I've been feeling so down about struggling to find a job and he has kept my spirits up 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

margrace said:


> sounds like a really promising session ... thanks again, acabado!
> 
> so GF expressed some intention to actively *try*?
> 
> and if she does, i'm with your therapist about affirming her for that. stepping out of your comfort zone -- the one that you've hidden in for your whole life -- is really hard, and when somebody finally sets foot on that path in a *visible* way, kudos to them


Indeed, she said so, and was acting caring after the session. I really hope she will.

I have no problem with affirming her for setting foot on the path in a *visible* way!


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## CantSitStill

Hello....anyone around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

B1 and I are at Ft. Knox, on base, about to watch a Trace Adkins concert. Sugarland is on right now. Tomorrow is our 29th wedding anniversary! We're good...... very, very good. Back to life, now! 

Take care, Reconcilers

EI out! xoxoxo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> B1 and I are at Ft. Knox, on base, about to watch a Trace Adkins concert. Sugarland is on right now. Tomorrow is our 29th wedding anniversary! We're good...... very, very good. Back to life, now!
> 
> Take care, Reconcilers
> 
> EI out! xoxoxo
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sugarland is one of my favorites, enjoy, and happy anniversary


----------



## cpacan

CantSitStill said:


> Hello....anyone around?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just a bit - it's late night here, what's up?


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## russell28

Watching Bruins Hawks... 

Crap, Hawks score.... Boooo.....


----------



## calvin

Sugarland?...yuck.
Happy anniversary B1 and EI!!!!
Go Hawks!!!.
We are doing good.Yesterday not so good but I bounced back.
I have a deep love for CSS,always have and that will keep us together .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Hahahahaha. The Hawks just scored again! YAY!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

EI said:


> B1 and I are at Ft. Knox, on base, about to watch a Trace Adkins concert. Sugarland is on right now. Tomorrow is our 29th wedding anniversary! We're good...... very, very good. Back to life, now!
> 
> Take care, Reconcilers
> 
> EI out! xoxoxo
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good for you guys. Enjoy the concert. And happy anniversary.


----------



## Want2babettrme

EI said:


> B1 and I are at Ft. Knox, on base, about to watch a Trace Adkins concert. Sugarland is on right now. Tomorrow is our 29th wedding anniversary! We're good...... very, very good. Back to life, now!
> 
> Take care, Reconcilers
> 
> EI out! xoxoxo
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have a happy anniversary EI and B1! And thank you for sharing your story and love here. We have all been inspired and changed for the better by y'alls journey.


----------



## CantSitStill

How bout them Blackhawks? ! Hehe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Brokenshadow

The amount of hockey and country music in this thread is a nice counter weight to all the English speak of tea and pubs elsewhere on CWI :-D

G'night to our cousins across the pond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Brokenshadow said:


> The amount of hockey and country music in this thread is a nice counter weight to all the English speak of tea and pubs elsewhere on CWI :-D
> 
> G'night to our cousins across the pond.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lets go ****** tonkin!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Hey guys

We're doing okay at the moment. It's been 11 days since my op and BigMac has been around a lot, when we weren't both working. We've struggled for babysitters so we haven't had as much alone time as we'd like, but it's been good.

Last Wednesday I had my solo MC appt. She asked me lots of questions about our relationship, to gauge the level of abuse we were talking about. It was horrible, having to think back to what it used to be like, telling her some of the things he said and did.

I talked to him on the phone that evening as he was working and told him some of the things I told her. He seemed to gt a touch irritated that he was being painted as the bad guy and things I'd done were being glossed over. With an ASD, no doubt I do things that are annoying, but honestly, most of the time, I never knew what they were, and he wouldn't tell me - that was one of our issues. I would do xyz, he would get annoyed, but not actually tell me what it was I had said or done to irritate him, All I got was "Well, if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you!"

But then on the occasions when he did tell me what I'd done wrong, I couldn't see what was wrong with it.

Anyway, so he was getting a little irritated and a tiny bit short - not much but just a bit. So he had to go back to work so we said goodbye and signed off. Then about a minute later, I got a text apologising, saying "Sorry - it just hurts to be the bad guy  xx" So I responded saying "It's ok - it's where we go from here that matters xx"

But the important thing is that the way he reacted was so massively different to the way he would have reacted to something like that before. That would probably have sparked a three-day argument! So I can tell he really is trying.

I asked him a few more things about the As and he answered with no hesitation or resistance or defensiveness or anything, which is good. I even looked through his iPad again and he wasn't annoyed. I'm cautiously optimistic.

We looked at a house yesterday. It needs work but it has a lot of space and a lot of potential. I think I'm keener on it than he is though. The thing is, to get the space we want at the price we can afford, we're not going to get somewhere that doesn't need a bit of work.

But then he still has to sell his house before wwe can buy anywhere else, as that one might be long gone by then, as it's a repo and priced low to sell.


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Hahahahaha. The Hawks just scored again! YAY!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Geesh, giddy aren't we?

lol


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> Hey guys
> 
> We're doing okay at the moment. It's been 11 days since my op and BigMac has been around a lot, when we weren't both working. We've struggled for babysitters so we haven't had as much alone time as we'd like, but it's been good.
> 
> Last Wednesday I had my solo MC appt. She asked me lots of questions about our relationship, to gauge the level of abuse we were talking about. It was horrible, having to think back to what it used to be like, telling her some of the things he said and did.
> 
> I talked to him on the phone that evening as he was working and told him some of the things I told her. He seemed to gt a touch irritated that he was being painted as the bad guy and things I'd done were being glossed over. With an ASD, no doubt I do things that are annoying, but honestly, most of the time, I never knew what they were, and he wouldn't tell me - that was one of our issues. I would do xyz, he would get annoyed, but not actually tell me what it was I had said or done to irritate him, All I got was "Well, if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you!"
> 
> But then on the occasions when he did tell me what I'd done wrong, I couldn't see what was wrong with it.
> 
> Anyway, so he was getting a little irritated and a tiny bit short - not much but just a bit. So he had to go back to work so we said goodbye and signed off. Then about a minute later, I got a text apologising, saying "Sorry - it just hurts to be the bad guy  xx" So I responded saying "It's ok - it's where we go from here that matters xx"
> 
> But the important thing is that the way he reacted was so massively different to the way he would have reacted to something like that before. That would probably have sparked a three-day argument! So I can tell he really is trying.
> 
> I asked him a few more things about the As and he answered with no hesitation or resistance or defensiveness or anything, which is good. I even looked through his iPad again and he wasn't annoyed. I'm cautiously optimistic.
> 
> We looked at a house yesterday. It needs work but it has a lot of space and a lot of potential. I think I'm keener on it than he is though. The thing is, to get the space we want at the price we can afford, we're not going to get somewhere that doesn't need a bit of work.
> 
> But then he still has to sell his house before wwe can buy anywhere else, as that one might be long gone by then, as it's a repo and priced low to sell.


Its good that he is able to go back and observe his behavior and make corrections. Eventually he will be able to see it in "real time" and not react that way at all. Got to give him credit for the work he's doing. I admit I was skeptical.

BTW, great job in validating and responding positively to his text message. It let's him know you appreciate him and that he's trying.


----------



## soulpotato

This was supposed to be a good weekend for me and GF. My birthday weekend. I almost cancelled several times because I was afraid it would go wrong. Probably should have gone with that gut feeling. Saturday was okay, but today wasn't. I left early because I didn't want to keep hearing how it was my fault that things went south, or continue to argue about it anymore.

There were several things she said over the weekend that I could've reacted to negatively, but didn't. I defused things she probably wasn't even aware of, and worked to keep things smooth. (One thing I did ask her was if she could stop bringing the APs up in *casual* conversation so much.) But this morning, I apparently wasn't on guard enough. She said, "This has been a good weekend," and I replied, "I think so, too, but I still feel a little emotionally tense, like maybe we're not totally synched up yet." She said she'd been trying to be open, and I said that nurturing the emotional connection might ease the tenseness and any remaining negativity. It rapidly devolved from there. She said I shouldn't have said something "negative", that I should've just agreed that the weekend was good and left it that. I explained that I was just trying to be honest, like I was supposed to be, and that I had included both something positive and a way to make things more positive. I reminded her of how she had listed honesty as her #1 thing in a relationship, and she said that was in relation to the situations with the APs (it was that marriage builders ranking sheet). So somehow I was still wrong. She started crying, wouldn't respond when I would try to comfort her (rubbing her shoulder or back) or verify her meaning from things she was saying, etc. Then she started doing the kitchen-sink thing and dragging other issues/fights into the one we were having. She also accused me of having a double standard in asking her to say things "my way" (i.e., validation, affirmation, reassurance, don't try to logic out of emotion or sidestep it) because I had a problem with doing things "her way" (don't mention anything "negative" or less than positive, just let it be). It just seemed to be expanding the longer it went on, like fighting a battle on a dozen fronts instead of just one. Finally I was like, "You don't seem like you want to resolve this..." I was hearing a lot of accusations and blame going on in her statements, and it sounded like she was trying to escalate the fight, not calm things down. I didn't want to spend the rest of Sunday fighting with her. So I told her I was leaving. On my way to the parking lot, I heard her punch or kick the door maybe 5 times. She hasn't contacted me since I left. I doubt she will. I'll probably have to contact her first.

Earlier, right after I said I agreed things had been good but that I still felt a little tense, she had said she felt stupid for thinking things were positive/good. (She has this tendency to globalize? things, invalidating the other things in the situation in favor of her negative perception. It's very hard to combat.) I feel stupid for even going to visit her. I feel more distant than even before. It's amazing how quickly things can go so wrong, and from such a seemingly small thing. I don't know how I could've fixed this or stopped it from exploding other than not sharing my feelings.


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## CantSitStill

Happy AnniversaryB1 and EI!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Soulpotato, no relationship is perfect and all couples have disagreements , I don't know what to tell you. You were feeling tense and I understand but maybe she didn't understand. Just seems like it was possibly misunderstanding for both of you. Why escalate t? It seems like just a bit of communication problems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

That's just it, CSS. Little thing, thought we could calmly discuss, but she seemed bent on escalating and making it something big. My slight tenseness only really mattered because I acknowledged it to her and she got very upset about it. I don't understand why it happened this way, and I'm just really at a loss. Trying to do everything right, yet it almost feels like GF and I are working at cross purposes.


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## CantSitStill

You also need to look at yourself, think if maybe you could have changed your behavior a bit. Sounds like you both over reacted. I may be wrong, I wasn't there. I'm just saying, sometimes it's not really even about who's right or wrong..it's about learning to accept and appreciate eachother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brokenshadow

For those successfully reconciling, how did you get past the anger, or more accurately, rage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all! Matt and I have had a more stable few weeks, and this past weekend has been really wonderful together. Yesterday was my birthday, and Matt planned and hosted my first ever real birthday party, not thrown by my parents for my relatives. He knows I love robots, so he got robot decorations, baked and decorated an amazing R2D2 cake for me, gave me a game called Robo Rally which is super fun, and made my favorite foods - homemade gumbo and shrimp etouffee. We had several friends stop by, and his mom even drove down to spend the day and night with us. Today we took our son to his first film in the theater, and we all watched Monsters University together.

I never dreamed anything like that would happen. I can't stop smiling as I think about it, and I will never forget how special he made that for me, even though it was a tough trigger anniversary for us. I am continually awed by him, and can't believe I could have taken that all for granted in the past. I hope I can continue to show him every single day how amazing he is, and treat him with the same precious thought that he has put into me.

I am truly lucky.

Here's my cake:









Happy birthday to you too, Soul Potato, and happy anniversary to B1 and EI! I know we are all at different points in our journeys, but I hope everyone here finds your happiness and peace, wherever your path leads.


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## cpacan

Brokenshadow said:


> For those successfully reconciling, how did you get past the anger, or more accurately, rage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you'll have a variety of different answers to this one. I heard that some posters used a punching bag, others got over it with time as a healing factor.

For me, it was several things that made the anger go away. First, I realized two things; one, my anger made my wife withdraw. I was not a very anger and enraged person, but it was clear that when it happened, she put up the wall. Second, I realized a thing that I had never thought about before... The anger never leaves the angry person. Meaning, the one it hurt the most is your self.

Once I realized these things, it was just practice, practice... and time.


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## Brokenshadow

cpacan said:


> I think you'll have a variety of different answers to this one. I heard that some posters used a punching bag, others got over it with time as a healing factor.
> 
> For me, it was several things that made the anger go away. First, I realized two things; one, my anger made my wife withdraw. I was not a very anger and enraged person, but it was clear that when it happened, she put up the wall. Second, I realized a thing that I had never thought about before... The anger never leaves the angry person. Meaning, the one it hurt the most is your self.
> 
> Once I realized these things, it was just practice, practice... and time.


I just can't stop it. I've been going to the gym three times a week for months. But it's always there, like water on the verge of boiling. In a recent MC session, she told our counselor that she feels terrible for many things, including filling me with such rage. It told our counselor that that isn't entirely true, that I'm not filled with rage, I am rage. I can't release this violence on her, can't wreck vengeance on the OM, I just have to sit here, with fire in my blood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Brokenshadow said:


> I just can't stop it. I've been going to the gym three times a week for months. But it's always there, like water on the verge of boiling. In a recent MC session, she told our counselor that she feels terrible for many things, including filling me with such rage. It told our counselor that that isn't entirely true, that I'm not filled with rage, I am rage. I can't release this violence on her, can't wreck vengeance on the OM, I just have to sit here, with fire in my blood.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Broken - I'm a WS, so I haven't experienced the processing of rage from the inside, but all I can tell you from my observations on the outside is that time seems to be a huge factor, in addition to working on redirecting and finding an outlet for that energy.

You are only about 2 months out from discovery, if I remember correctly. Many posters here have commented that the rage actually continues to grow through at least 6 months, sometimes beyond. I know for Matt and I, he went through a really tough time at about the 6 month mark.

I wish I could suggest useful coping mechanisms for you. I know every suggests the gym because of the endorphins your body releases, but it sounds like what you really need is to feel like you're being *heard*. How is your spouse working to help you through this? Can you talk with her honestly about your struggles and does she offer you support and care? Do you have someone else to talk with about this?

Maybe try journaling or writing out your worst thoughts to purge them from your head. Maybe set them on fire after. Or something to try to clean things out a bit. I wish I knew. I hope you can find some relief.


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## Brokenshadow

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Broken - I'm a WS, so I haven't experienced the processing of rage from the inside, but all I can tell you from my observations on the outside is that time seems to be a huge factor, in addition to working on redirecting and finding an outlet for that energy.
> 
> You are only about 2 months out from discovery, if I remember correctly. Many posters here have commented that the rage actually continues to grow through at least 6 months, sometimes beyond. I know for Matt and I, he went through a really tough time at about the 6 month mark.
> 
> I wish I could suggest useful coping mechanisms for you. I know every suggests the gym because of the endorphins your body releases, but it sounds like what you really need is to feel like you're being *heard*. How is your spouse working to help you through this? Can you talk with her honestly about your struggles and does she offer you support and care? Do you have someone else to talk with about this?
> 
> Maybe try journaling or writing out your worst thoughts to purge them from your head. Maybe set them on fire after. Or something to try to clean things out a bit. I wish I knew. I hope you can find some relief.


Dday 2 when I uncovered that it was a PA was a little over a month ago. She has been trying to help, she's answered questions that she previously wouldn't, and has been more affectionate. On the rare occasion where she works late, she have me her desk number so I can call and confirm that she really is there. It's just difficult because a part of me is even frustrated that she has to do these things, that the trust is basically gone. It feels like a type of weakness, that she feels I need reassurance. 

Outside MC I don't bring the topic up very often. It just starts the ball rolling, and my anger grows. I haven't exploded with her yet, truly let it out, but I've shared with her my thoughts, feelings in quiet pointed words. I've told her what actions I want to take against this guy, and she tells me my rage should be pointed at her. I know that makes a certain kind of sense, but it also feels like she's protecting him. As for talking with anyone else, absolutely not. I more or less despise my family, and this now fact of life for me is incredibly shameful, embarrassing. From now till the day I die, I will always know that my wife, a woman I loved with a depth I didn't know I had, cheated on me with another man. A not so small part of me wants every single person associated with this event to be swallowed into hell. The OM, his family, her friend that knew, and her. I feel, selfishly perhaps, that everyone had their fun, laughing behind my back, and I'm the only one left suffering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

My husband also wanted to hurt or possibility kill the exOM...he still does 16 months later..I have told my husband the same thing your wife said. Not to protect the idiot exOM but to keep my husband out of jail. The anger goes away slowly but comes back here and there and it is hard as hell. Reconciliation is not easy at all. Hubby does not explode but gets very cold with me at times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Hello, Reconcilers -

Been away for awhile. Some of it has been awful, some has been pretty good. I think my time doing the 180 did work to a degree, but in some ways it was torturing my WS and he became convinced I was going to leave him. He later told me that during that period when I was out of the house so much he went to consult an attorney in case I went that route. 

After several days of my being upbeat and largely absent, he said he wanted to deal with the "elephant in the room" and wanted me to say whatever I wanted to say, and said he would listen. So I got all of it out that I had on my mind right then, and he was unusually vulnerable with me, saying he didn't want to lose me and wouldn't say no altogether to counseling but is not ready to say yes just now. 

He said he was sorry for the most recent fight, that it was all his fault - that I'd tried to do the right thing the right way and he'd just gotten angry. He said he wanted to try to help me whenever I need to talk about the affair, but that he has trouble with going over the same thing, and he'll try to deal with that because I need to. 

He said he wants to do things DIFFERENTLY because he realizes that the old ways didn't work. Avoiding and not dealing with things created too many problems, and we have to stop doing that. He wants me to tell him when I'm upset, and not hold it in because that will keep us from feeling close again.

Well, this was a lot of positive stuff. Then he got really sick. So he's been home for a week and I haven't been online much because I've been taking care of him. I think the stress of all this didn't help his immune system.

We've had some really loving interactions, but I've avoided too much affair talk due to his illness. He's better today, so I did get into it a bit, and he started to get a little defensive but when I pointed it out, he calmed down and handled the rest of the discussion really well.

Just a brief comment to Broken - anger is normal, especially early on in this. Managing it is the challenge, because it will eat you up. Post here a lot if you have nobody else to talk to; I don't talk to family or friends either so this has been a great outlet for me. Deep breathing helps too. Humor, music, nature, spiritual practice if you lean that way. But do be proactive in tackling the anger, which any betrayed spouse is going to have!


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## mineforever

Brokenshadow...I am a BS...so sorry you are here and going through this. I am many years past my last Dday. One thing I have learned from going through this process more than once with my husband, you will have to go through the stages of grief in order to heal....sadness/pain, anger/rage, numb/acceptance....you will cycle through these stages many times as you mourn the death of your old relationship. Your old relationship is gone, you cannot get it back. You two will have to create a new relationship...you will have to build trust...love...committment..loving bond again. The betrayal of friends and family is very painful as well...I delt with this as well. I know to well the pain you feel. To this day...10 yrs later I keep my distance...I am polite and friendly but I do not seek out their company. I found taking on a large project and focusing my attention on it helped with my anger and rage....don't know if that would help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Hopefgirl, it sounds like your hubby is beginning to see how hurt you are and is willing to deal with the uncomfortableness and is ready to come out of his comfort zone. I am happy to hear that. I struggle with hubby's questions and bringing it up, it's not easy and it makes me literally wanna puke. It's nice to know he is at least trying. : )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

hopefulgirl - sounds like things might be turning a corner for you - I hope he can keep it up.


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## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> You also need to look at yourself, think if maybe you could have changed your behavior a bit. Sounds like you both over reacted. I may be wrong, I wasn't there. I'm just saying, sometimes it's not really even about who's right or wrong..it's about learning to accept and appreciate eachother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what I've been doing. I reviewed how things went several times, and I don't think I overreacted. I didn't even really feel angry, just aggravated. I don't know what I could have done differently. GF did admit partway through that she overreacted, but went on to pull other things in like she was trying to carry the conflict forward from that point. I was not even sure why she reacted the way she did - like she went on the offensive from the get-go (even while crying, which I've always been confused by). I'm not entirely sure what the argument was about, other than her not liking my directness and honesty and wanting me to shift to a more avoidant communication style. I thought of leaving even before I did, but I didn't want to upset her more or just give in to instinct to withdraw if it was going to be counterproductive.


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## soulpotato

Happy Birthday, Mrs M.  Glad that Matt made it such a great day for you!


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## MrMathias

Brokenshadow said:


> For those successfully reconciling, how did you get past the anger, or more accurately, rage?


I'm sorry to say it will likely get a bit worse for you in the coming months as you process what happened. From my experience, and what I've read, that's typical and expected. 

I was full of rage, no doubt about it. Visualizing a medicine ball was the POSOMs severed head, playing murder scenarios over and over in my head, feeling like I was on the edge of a serious breakdown many times no matter where I was. Pretty dark stuff. Mean verbal comments in my head, underhanded snipes, many directed to MrsM (my counselor noted my savage creativity when I told her some of them). 

I think a combination of many things helped diffuse that darkness. Time was one of them, along with a remorseful spouse. 

Most important was facing the reasons for the rage. Beating up a punching bag certainly wears you out, but isn't that really just a form of misdirection? 

So, when I felt that anger arriving, tipping over the edge, I directly asked why? *Why* am I so mad? I KNEW it wasn't healthy, and didn't like who I was. I'm not, or at least I wasn't, someone that loses their temper easily. I think that rage is a natural biological response to your mate (and an AP is a grave threat to your mating)- but it shouldn't be long term-that's mental. 

I realized I was furious at myself just as much as anyone... for not recognizing the extent of the affair, not taking adequate steps to stop it. Missing or incorrectly interpreting significant clues that were indisputable. Being a dupe, and an idiot, 'allowing' myself to be lied to. Investing in something flawed. Pedestalizing a person that didn't deserve it. 

The thing is, I simply didn't have the information to make accurate judgements. I was being lied to. "Truth Bias' and other mental phenomena contributed to my weakness and lastly, there's only so much trauma the human mind can take. Don't be so angry at yourself.

There's anger at your spouse. That's hard to get past as well. If you love them, you probably don't want to hurt them by directing rage their way; at the same time you want them to 'get it', to feel some small part of the pain you feel. You want them to 'pay', you want equality, and honestly they deserve it. Sadly, you'll never know if they do 'get it' or not- you can't crawl into their mind and really KNOW. There won't be equality or payback. Recognize that so you can move forward. I believe you can only really truly empathize if you've experienced the same thing, and your spouse can never do that- even if you have a revenge affair. Ask if you're hurt because you love them and they wounded you, or, if its because they wounded your ego. If you don't love them, why the hurt? 

Truly remorseful spouses probably don't think about their affair fondly. I know a lot of BS think that their spouse is reminiscing about the A, but I suspect most really want to forget it happened. A lot of WS are quite good at compartmentalizing, not thinking about stuff they'd prefer not to, so you can at least take comfort that a _remorseful_ WS isn't thinking about their affair. 

So, I would suggest that you examine your rage. Ask what drives it- and it's probably a lot of different things. Then you can ask if its worth being filled with rage over. It may be. Ask yourself if you can control your emotions. Your spouse couldn't. Are you a better person? Can you control yourself, or not? If you're into anime, watch _Princess Mononoke_. Do you _want_ to be filled with hate? 

That said- there's a few people I am comfortable 'hating' 'till I die. That's okay as long as you don't _dwell_ in the hatred.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Matt/MrMathias:

Awesome post my friend! I sometimes sound like a broken record on here, but I am frequently pushing people to understand the motivation for their feelings. That if we can take the time to really understand "why I am feeling this way or acting this way" the world becomes much more manageable. Agree with you 100%.

I found that some of my early rage was caused by anger at myself as well, for being played a fool etc. But the even bigger driver of my rage that lasted longer (all the way to the one year mark) was ultimately created and fed by my fear. Fear of allowing myself to become emotionally invested and vulnerable again to the one person who had hurt me worse than anyone else in the world. 

I realized that fear was causing me to pull back into my shell by "burning things down" every time we started doing well. It was a weird cycle. We would have a good week or two where we were really connecting, good conversations and intimacy and then BAM! I would start having all sorts of negative thoughts - it almost felt like my subconscious was FORCING me to relive the mind movies and triggers etc. But it was my FEAR of starting to truly reconnect and open myself up that was causing this behavior. Once I understood that, I had power over my rage.

I am so happy to see you posting here, and to hear that you guys are doing better. I was very skeptical of MrsMathias when she first began posting, you could almost see the fog in her early posts. But Matt, she has come soooooo far over the last year, and is truly showing you how remorseful she is and how badly she wants to build a new future with you and your family.

And I worried that perhaps too much damage had been done, that your wounds were too severe to be healed. But your strength is admirable, brother. You have shown incredible strength, grace and resilience. Stay the course. I truly think you may be through the worst of it. You will still have bad days/weeks, triggers etc. But from what you have shown thus far, combined with MrsM's commitment and remorse, I think the Mathias family has a lot of hope for a bright future together.

So pull up a chair, and keep hanging out in the R thread. We can always do with another strong dude like yourself!


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## Robsia

I struggle with the anger.

I want to work on R and BigMac is doing really well for us at the moment. But I still feel the anger. I suppress it so that it won't harm our R. Occasionally it comes out in spiteful b!tchy comments. Not too often as I really try to bite my tongue.

If he gets annoyed about my comment I am annoyed at him for not being the perfect remorseful WH and taking it. But if he DOES take it, then I feel bad for losing my control.

Mostly I write it all down.

As an Aspie I talk to myself a lot so if you saw me walking down the beach early in the morning with the dog when no one else is around you would hear me having very nasty arguments with thin air, saying all the things to BigMac that I actually can't say to his face because they are so nasty.

I'm not sure if it's helping, but that's what I do.

And every time he hugs me or tells me he loves me, or strokes my hand, or kisses my hair or does any one of a dozen affectionate things he has re-started doing lately, then it takes away just a little bit of my anger and I remember why I fell in love with him.


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## MrMathias

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> But the even bigger driver of my rage that lasted longer (all the way to the one year mark) was ultimately created and fed by my fear. Fear of allowing myself to become emotionally invested and vulnerable again to the one person who had hurt me worse than anyone else in the world.
> 
> I realized that fear was causing me to pull back into my shell by "burning things down" every time we started doing well. It was a weird cycle. We would have a good week or two where we were really connecting, good conversations and intimacy and then BAM! I would start having all sorts of negative thoughts - it almost felt like my subconscious was FORCING me to relive the mind movies and triggers etc. But it was my FEAR of starting to truly reconnect and open myself up that was causing this behavior. Once I understood that, I had power over my rage.


Wow, yes, thanks for bringing that up, I totally forgot to add 'fear' as part of the equation. My post was getting long  Anger can certainly come from the wellspring of fear. I think recognizing that you have fear in the first place is very hard to do. 



NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> I am so happy to see you posting here, and to hear that you guys are doing better. I was very skeptical of MrsMathias when she first began posting, you could almost see the fog in her early posts.


Thick as pea soup  

I've let her do a lot of the talking lately, she's shown me that she can introspect. She's looked inward. That was a big thing for me. I don't see how anyone can even hope to reconcile if you and your WS don't know who, what, where, when, and ultimately WHY. 

Since I've stopped saying negative things (lots of 'thought replacement' strategies required on my part) MrsM has started attacking herself in her dreams- so believe me, if your spouse is remorseful, they've got their own hell to deal with and you as a WS don't need to do anything. You may even find yourself in the odd position of providing comfort to your betrayer :scratchhead:


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## bfree

Wow, this page should be required reading. Incredible insight being shown here.


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## Acabado

MrMathias, man. I'm so happy to hear from you, talking this way.
Great, incredible news. Glad NH2ME came to coment on your post so wisely. If I can connect a few words with some sense I will be back. Just a piece.


> Since I've stopped saying negative things (lots of 'thought replacement' strategies required on my part) MrsM has started attacking herself in her dreams- so believe me, if your spouse is remorseful, they've got their own hell to deal with and you as a WS don't need to do anything. You may even find yourself in the odd position of providing comfort to your betrayer


Yes, you will be in that position and then your true self will come out again. It's a strange position as seeing them suffering provide you... comfort too, isn't it? At the same time, regardless your capacity for compassion, regardless your love you feel free to be yourself because remorse is palpable, can't be faked (but you doubt whether they fully get it?, Yeah, suffer a litle more). You feel somehow safe.


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## Robsia

Whoa - just had a really freaky experience.

I have often had some freaky telepathic experiences, several with my youngest dd - 5. I sometimes wonder if I am a broadcast telepath. I can't control it. On the occasions when I've experimented, it's failed every time. But this one was seriously freaky.

I had my 5yo in the car - we were driving back from the supermarket. I started thinking about our wedding anniversary next month, and how sad it will be. I was wondering if BigMac would do anything and if he would understand why I would be sad about celebrating it. I was thinking about this for several minutes then, from the back seat comes, "When is your wedding anniversary?"

Now, there had been nothing on the radio about weddings or wedding anniversaries to prompt me thinking about it, so it wasn't a case of two people thinking along the same lines from a single prompt. And bear in mind this is a five-year-old!

So, a little freaked, I answered the question, then I said "Do you know what a wedding anniversary is?"

"No," she says.

"So what made you ask that question?"

She thought for a second then said, "I don't know."

Holy telepathic freak-out, Batman!!!


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## bfree

Robsia said:


> Whoa - just had a really freaky experience.
> 
> I have often had some freaky telepathic experiences, several with my youngest dd - 5. I sometimes wonder if I am a broadcast telepath. I can't control it. On the occasions when I've experimented, it's failed every time. But this one was seriously freaky.
> 
> I had my 5yo in the car - we were driving back from the supermarket. I started thinking about our wedding anniversary next month, and how sad it will be. I was wondering if BigMac would do anything and if he would understand why I would be sad about celebrating it. I was thinking about this for several minutes then, from the back seat comes, "When is your wedding anniversary?"
> 
> Now, there had been nothing on the radio about weddings or wedding anniversaries to prompt me thinking about it, so it wasn't a case of two people thinking along the same lines from a single prompt. And bear in mind this is a five-year-old!
> 
> So, a little freaked, I answered the question, then I said "Do you know what a wedding anniversary is?"
> 
> "No," she says.
> 
> "So what made you ask that question?"
> 
> She thought for a second then said, "I don't know."
> 
> Holy telepathic freak-out, Batman!!!


I must have missed this post.

Its funny but my wife and I often seem to be on the same wavelength. She'll put on a movie and I'll say I was just thinking about that movie or I'll pull into a restaurant parking lot while we're out and she'll say she was hoping we'd stop there. I think when you are around someone so much and there's that love connection its easy to share thoughts sometimes. I actually find it very comforting. Its like knowing you're never really alone.


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## jupiter13

BS get out of my head! I am so full of anger and had to go out and start harvesting my catnip as something productive to do. What triggered me was cleaning the living room of all things. I started to clean this very large stenciled mirror I had found at a junk store. When I got out of the hospital I set out to restore. It had been so long since I had been able to do anything productive, I was so excited. Even got WH to hang it with me. Well that mirror is sitting in the burn pile now. While he was helping me and I was diligently coming on to him and being a person alive again, he was doing her and more behind my back. It is anger at myself for allowing someone to get close to me again. Trusting someone so completely and now I am so totally alone as to trust him again that much would be insane. I found another problem in the answers he gave me when he finally opened up. I email him and it is days later he might answer or a month or maybe not at all. I don't see him doing the hard work he should be doing. I am connecting more dots and feeling all the hurt over and over again. It is also the days of remembering what was going on right before from May to September the whole summer. Our history my history has a lot to do with all the pain I'm sure and I will post the store soon I just had to get this off my chest. Anger is hurt directed at myself.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> I must have missed this post.
> 
> Its funny but my wife and I often seem to be on the same wavelength. She'll put on a movie and I'll say I was just thinking about that movie or I'll pull into a restaurant parking lot while we're out and she'll say she was hoping we'd stop there. I think when you are around someone so much and there's that love connection its easy to share thoughts sometimes. I actually find it very comforting. Its like knowing you're never really alone.


Thats wild isnt it?
I missed Rosbia's post also,its like her kids heard her post.
When CSS was out of the house ( the same day she came back )
I knew something was very wrong with someone I loved,I called my Mom and Dad,they were fine,that left CSS.
She was on the verge of a breakdown getting ready to call an ambulance.
I called her and told her to come home and wait for me.
She kept asking me who called me and told me,no one did.I just felt it.
I think you're right about the love connection thing bfree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Hey all,

This thread has been too quiet lately, so I thought I would share a little bit of an update.

This Sunday is the second anniversary of when my wife first slept with the POSOM. It is one of two dates on the calendar that I dread these days (the other being DD in October). As a result, I have had a few more negative thoughts of late. 

But we are trying to be proactive and have made some fun plans for Sunday as a family earlier in the day, and as a couple in the afternoon/evening. Hopefully it will help keep me from focusing on the negatives too much. Need to also remember how far we have come in these two years.

But I think part of why it is so hard for me is that I feel like my wife doesn't fully get it sometimes. She is remorseful, doing the heavy lifting etc. But I don't think she fully comprehends the level of destruction her PA has had. I view this day as the anniversary of when our marriage ended. When my innocence was lost. When my vision of the future was forever stolen from me.

Don't get me wrong, we are doing really well in our R. We are building a new relationship, a new marriage and a future. But in many ways, it is a lesser version of each of those things than I had envisioned for us. Which makes me sad.

I suppose I could argue that my previous vision wasn't based in reality, and this new one is. That life isn't all fairytales and rainbows.

I just sometimes still mourn the death of my previous marriage and previous self.


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## calvin

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Hey all,
> 
> This thread has been too quiet lately, so I thought I would share a little bit of an update.
> 
> This Sunday is the second anniversary of when my wife first slept with the POSOM. It is one of two dates on the calendar that I dread these days (the other being DD in October). As a result, I have had a few more negative thoughts of late.
> 
> But we are trying to be proactive and have made some fun plans for Sunday as a family earlier in the day, and as a couple in the afternoon/evening. Hopefully it will help keep me from focusing on the negatives too much. Need to also remember how far we have come in these two years.
> 
> But I think part of why it is so hard for me is that I feel like my wife doesn't fully get it sometimes. She is remorseful, doing the heavy lifting etc. But I don't think she fully comprehends the level of destruction her PA has had. I view this day as the anniversary of when our marriage ended. When my innocence was lost. When my vision of the future was forever stolen from me.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, we are doing really well in our R. We are building a new relationship, a new marriage and a future. But in many ways, it is a lesser version of each of those things than I had envisioned for us. Which makes me sad.
> 
> I suppose I could argue that my previous vision wasn't based in reality, and this new one is. That life isn't all fairytales and rainbows.
> 
> I just sometimes still mourn the death of my previous marriage and previous self.


Sad post Bro but it also had quite a bit of hope and its obvious things are much better
for you and you're wife.
I know your wife has some pretty deep remorse from your earier post.
I dont think CSS will really understand how much I have been affected by what she did.
I know that she knows it hurt me pretty damn bad,as bad as my brothers death.
It haunts you and comes back sometimes,thank God its getting less and less.
I also know she loves the hell out of me and she is open,honest and does what ever
she can to help when my brain gets blended.
Things are getting better for us,a lot better.
I've calmed down a lot and cut my Tam time by about 70%.
I see the future being pretty good.
CSS is one of the WS's who "get it",she's not the only one though.
Hand tight man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> But I think part of why it is so hard for me is that I feel like my wife doesn't fully get it sometimes.... I don't think she fully comprehends the level of destruction her PA has had. I view this day as the anniversary of when our marriage ended. When my innocence was lost. When my vision of the future was forever stolen from me.


I TOTALLY get it. Even now, when things are going better, this feeling is always there. I can feel happy, but I feel that my life is now tinged with sadness because of this loss of innocense. I'm approaching the 5 month anniversary of D-Day so my trauma and grief are still fresh. I hope it will fade as time goes by.

I also find that even though discussions about the affair go much better, it's still difficult. I wish that he could push through HIS pain and guilt better than he seems to be able to, so that he could respond with more depth of feeling for ME. Instead, his answers are brief, often only one word - I think because it's so hard for him to go there at all. 

I mean, I'm glad he feels so lousy about the whole thing, and doesn't want to be with the OW, so that part is good. I think most WS's have a hard time "getting it," "fully comprehending" the damage they've done - but if they're still dealing with their own guilt and disgust with themselves, that kind of emotional stuff can get in the way of their being able to "get out of themselves" and try to feel "with" us and get a better glimpse of the pain we live with. Unfortunately, the vibe I get is that my WS still feels sorry for HIMSELF when he "has to" go over this period in his life again. 

I've tried to explain that this is the only way for me to heal, and intellectually he says he understands this. But doing the work is hard, and I think to him it's so ugly he just doesn't want to have to be in that time and place again.


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## daisygirl 41

Hi all
I'm still alive!!
We are plodding along. Some good days some bad. We have had a few positive conversation but nothing too heavy.
The Doc has double my dose of anxiety meds and I think it's starting to help me.
H is ok. I think he's got a mild depression, but we talked on Wednesday and I told him I was feeling unloved and needed him to be more affectionate with me and he has stepped it up. He apologised and said he didn't mean to make me feel like that, that he feels like all of the stress of the last 2 years has just hit him and his way of dealing with it is to just shut down. I told him he couldn't do that because it made me feel the way I felt when he was having the A. Again he apologised.

I won't lie. Things aren't great but we Are taking it slow, a day at a time again.
I know some of you are frustrated with me with my decision NOT to make him quit his job but I'm not going to do it. That has to be his choice. I know that's not a popular choice around here but what will be will be. He's home on time. Doesn't go to work early. He chose not to attend an awards ceremony on Wednesday, even after I told him he could go. There has been nothing to suggest she is still in the picture for over 15 months now. Nothing at all. Not a smidgen. There comes a point where I need to trust him and trust his word that he will never hurt me like that again. If he is cheating, or has feelings for her, then I will find out soon enough, and he can leave. It will be his loss and he knows it. I won't fight for him again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon

It means nothing to me - just a word.


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## soulpotato

Things just about went off the cliff with GF earlier this week. Tuesday morning, she told me things were over with us (because she couldn't stand to have arguments anymore, and also because she couldn't stand to be with someone who could think about her "that way" - i.e. calling her manipulative and stuff). 

I just about had a breakdown. I was sobbing hysterically all morning, and kept calling her and leaving her messages, begging her to answer the phone or to talk to me (she had stopped responding to anything the night before). I begged her to come to therapy, but she wouldn't confirm anything. When she was late, I feared that she wasn't coming and that that was her answer. But she ended up showing up partway through the session (she told me later that she didn't know why she came, she just did). 

Suffice to say, it was a rough session. I had some hope when GF came in, but then things seemed off the table again. It pushed me over the edge and I lost it a bit. For some reason, GF grabbed my hands before I could really get started trying to hurt myself. I don't understand why she acts and speaks the way she does, and doesn't respond when I am desperate other times, but then would do something like grab my hands and restrain me then. I could hear her voice telling me that I was lovable, and not to hate myself, to stop trying to hurt myself.

Towards the end of the session, things calmed down and she was talking like we were going to keep working on things and that we could play it by ear. The therapist said no pressure, no decisions. So I am trying to just stay positive and take it easy, but it's hard. GF said NO fights, none at all, otherwise that was it. She said she can't handle one more fight. That we are on the dregs of her ability to work on anything, to stay in this situation. 

The therapist did say that if this fails, it won't be because of me or my BPD. She said it would be more about GF not being capable of being fully present in any relationship, or able to provide that for anyone, at least right now. Also that we are at opposite ends of the emotionality spectrum. I think the therapist was just as surprised as I was when GF walked in.

SO. No arguments. If I feel attacked, criticized, or blamed, I am going to call a time-out and try to wait until things cool off to talk about anything. I'm also going to try to start keeping a notebook of things that bother me or things I want to talk about and see if I can't hold off bringing them up until therapy sessions instead of as they occur. I'm going to do my best to keep things positive in the day-to-day, regardless of how I feel.

I can't stand the thought of losing her. I know that's unhealthy, but for me, it's reality. Losing her is the worst-case scenario ever. I don't ever want to feel again how I felt earlier this week. Trying to struggle with her over the core issues has only made things worse and pushed us apart, so I'm going to try to do this differently.


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## margrace

soulpotato said:


> Things just about went off the cliff with GF earlier this week. Tuesday morning, she told me things were over with us (because she couldn't stand to have arguments anymore, and also because she couldn't stand to be with someone who could think about her "that way" - i.e. calling her manipulative and stuff).
> 
> I just about had a breakdown. I was sobbing hysterically all morning, and kept calling her and leaving her messages, begging her to answer the phone or to talk to me (she had stopped responding to anything the night before). I begged her to come to therapy, but she wouldn't confirm anything. When she was late, I feared that she wasn't coming and that that was her answer. But she ended up showing up partway through the session (she told me later that she didn't know why she came, she just did).
> 
> Suffice to say, it was a rough session. I had some hope when GF came in, but then things seemed off the table again. It pushed me over the edge and I lost it a bit. For some reason, GF grabbed my hands before I could really get started trying to hurt myself. I don't understand why she acts and speaks the way she does, and doesn't respond when I am desperate other times, but then would do something like grab my hands and restrain me then. I could hear her voice telling me that I was lovable, and not to hate myself, to stop trying to hurt myself.
> 
> Towards the end of the session, things calmed down and she was talking like we were going to keep working on things and that we could play it by ear. The therapist said no pressure, no decisions. So I am trying to just stay positive and take it easy, but it's hard. GF said NO fights, none at all, otherwise that was it. She said she can't handle one more fight. That we are on the dregs of her ability to work on anything, to stay in this situation.
> 
> The therapist did say that if this fails, it won't be because of me or my BPD. She said it would be more about GF not being capable of being fully present in any relationship, or able to provide that for anyone, at least right now. Also that we are at opposite ends of the emotionality spectrum. I think the therapist was just as surprised as I was when GF walked in.
> 
> SO. No arguments. If I feel attacked, criticized, or blamed, I am going to call a time-out and try to wait until things cool off to talk about anything. I'm also going to try to start keeping a notebook of things that bother me or things I want to talk about and see if I can't hold off bringing them up until therapy sessions instead of as they occur. I'm going to do my best to keep things positive in the day-to-day, regardless of how I feel.
> 
> I can't stand the thought of losing her. I know that's unhealthy, but for me, it's reality. Losing her is the worst-case scenario ever. I don't ever want to feel again how I felt earlier this week. Trying to struggle with her over the core issues has only made things worse and pushed us apart, so I'm going to try to do this differently.


what a difficult, exhausting week. i am torn as i read this, soulpotato. i can see what the therapist is saying about GF's emotional unavailability being the big problem.... and i see that her unavailability has played out for you in painful ways.

the idea that you had to be restrained from hurting yourself speaks to how painful it all is, and to how desperately you are trying to hang on.

but i also find myself wondering... okay, GF is reassuring you that you are lovable -- and it's clear that you are  but is _she_ still in love with you? does she actively _want_ a future with you? is that foundation still there, deep down within this relationship?

by the end of the session, it sounded to you like you two were going to keep working on things. i know how much you wanted to hear that, and i always think there is hope when both partners truly want to reconcile.

what i'm not completely clear about is whether both parties here truly want that. i want you to be hopeful *as long as both of you are committed* to R...

remind me, soulpotato, do you have an IC? i ask because it would be great for you to have your own place for support


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## StarGazer101

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all
> I'm still alive!!
> We are plodding along. Some good days some bad. We have had a few positive conversation but nothing too heavy.
> The Doc has double my dose of anxiety meds and I think it's starting to help me.
> H is ok. I think he's got a mild depression, but we talked on Wednesday and I told him I was feeling unloved and needed him to be more affectionate with me and he has stepped it up. He apologised and said he didn't mean to make me feel like that, that he feels like all of the stress of the last 2 years has just hit him and his way of dealing with it is to just shut down. I told him he couldn't do that because it made me feel the way I felt when he was having the A. Again he apologised.
> 
> I won't lie. Things aren't great but we Are taking it slow, a day at a time again.
> I know some of you are frustrated with me with my decision NOT to make him quit his job but I'm not going to do it. That has to be his choice. I know that's not a popular choice around here but what will be will be. He's home on time. Doesn't go to work early. He chose not to attend an awards ceremony on Wednesday, even after I told him he could go. There has been nothing to suggest she is still in the picture for over 15 months now. Nothing at all. Not a smidgen. There comes a point where I need to trust him and trust his word that he will never hurt me like that again. If he is cheating, or has feelings for her, then I will find out soon enough, and he can leave. *It will be his loss and he knows it. I won't fight for him again*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG - So glad to hear you are still hanging on in there. This R stuff is gruelling, and sometimes it feels as though it's all uphill with a heavy backpack, but we all know our own personal motivations for continuing to trudge onwards; so we do. I'm glad the anxiety meds seem to be helping.

I cannot imagine how much your decision to allow him to continue to work in the same place as OW is taking out of you, but it is your journey, and I can only respect your right to shoulder that additional burden. 

I do think you are absolutely correct when you say there is a point where you have to trust, and I see strength in your comment bolded above. It would indeed be his loss.

I had thought that over a year in, my load would be lighter, and some days, like today, it is. However yesterday I felt that the future was bleak and we ended up having another one of those intense discussions that H hates so much. Having aired my concerns I did eventually feel better but it is SO hard to *always* be the one who has to push for understanding and communication against what sometimes feels like a brick wall. We do eventually get there, but OMG it would be so nice just to be able to talk without feeling exhausted at the end!

Communication seems to be a massive hurdle for us. We have most definitely taken small steps forward, but we have a long way to go.


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## margrace

> This Sunday is the second anniversary of when my wife first slept with the POSOM. It is one of two dates on the calendar that I dread these days (the other being DD in October). As a result, I have had a few more negative thoughts of late.
> 
> ...Need to also remember how far we have come in these two years. But I think part of why it is so hard for me is that I feel like my wife doesn't fully get it sometimes. She is remorseful, doing the heavy lifting etc. But I don't think she fully comprehends the level of destruction her PA has had... Don't get me wrong, we are doing really well in our R. We are building a new relationship, a new marriage and a future...I suppose I could argue that my previous vision wasn't based in reality, and this new one is. That life isn't all fairytales and rainbows.





hopefulgirl said:


> I TOTALLY get it. Even now, when things are going better, this feeling is always there. I can feel happy, but I feel that my life is now tinged with sadness... I hope it will fade as time goes by.
> 
> I also find that even though discussions about the affair go much better, it's still difficult...Unfortunately, the vibe I get is that my WS still feels sorry for HIMSELF when he "has to" go over this period in his life again.


i get it too, neverhappen and hg. my fWH is doing everything possible, we are doing well together, and i feel very positive about our future and the marriage that we are building. thank you to all of you who have contributed along the way 

fWH is making that possible by doing everything that he can as a remorseful WS. he has gone from outright refusal to talk about A to (now) willingly filling in the gaps, as painful as this must be for him. he is transparent with info about his current activities and communications. he shows understanding when triggers pop up and actively helps me work through them. he even brings it up before i do (soooo helpful). we did NOT get here overnight (as some of you will remember), and i have not quite put myself completely back together, but i am very grateful to be at this place 

AND the anniversary memories still hurt and the occasional sad tinges are still there. sometimes i feel exhausted by them too, stargazer 

i'm working on accepting all this as part of my story, the story of one more human who wasn't perfect and who didn't have a perfect life. lots of people have a few bad cards show up in their hands over a lifetime -- probably almost everyone. why not me? _it happened_. can't we learn and grow, can't we still be happy and love each other, us imperfect people?

that doesn't mean that there isn't sometimes a bittersweet quality to post-fairytale life... i can definitely get swept up in that feeling. 

but as you're saying, neverhappen, that _is_ life and it can still be beautiful. maybe even more beautiful -- who knows?


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## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all
> I'm still alive!!
> We are plodding along. Some good days some bad. We have had a few positive conversation but nothing too heavy.
> The Doc has double my dose of anxiety meds and I think it's starting to help me.
> H is ok. I think he's got a mild depression, but we talked on Wednesday and I told him I was feeling unloved and needed him to be more affectionate with me and he has stepped it up. He apologised and said he didn't mean to make me feel like that, that he feels like all of the stress of the last 2 years has just hit him and his way of dealing with it is to just shut down. I told him he couldn't do that because it made me feel the way I felt when he was having the A. Again he apologised.
> 
> I won't lie. Things aren't great but we Are taking it slow, a day at a time again.
> *I know some of you are frustrated with me with my decision NOT to make him quit his job but I'm not going to do it. That has to be his choice.* I know that's not a popular choice around here but what will be will be. He's home on time. Doesn't go to work early. He chose not to attend an awards ceremony on Wednesday, even after I told him he could go. There has been nothing to suggest she is still in the picture for over 15 months now. Nothing at all. Not a smidgen. There comes a point where I need to trust him and trust his word that he will never hurt me like that again. If he is cheating, or has feelings for her, then I will find out soon enough, and he can leave. It will be his loss and he knows it. I won't fight for him again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG, I'm glad to see that you are still posting and you and your husband are still together. I want you to know that I pray for you each and every day. However....

At the risk of upsetting you I'm going to call you out on this statement. While I agree that the burden of R should be on the WS and that person does have to do the heavy lifting you cannot just abdicate your responsibility for telling him how you feel and making him recognize the damage that his continuing to work with his affair partner is having on your relationship. His job is causing him to shut down emotionally and you to have intense and extreme anxiety. So what is your response? To further deaden your pain with medication and to wait for him to come to an obvious decision on his own? Well its not going to happen because he is not you and doesn't see what is happening. Right now you are standing around watching your marriage bleed to death and refuse to lift a finger to put pressure on the wound or stop the bleeding. Can you please explain the logic here because frankly I'm completely dumbfounded by your course of action.

And its not that he has feelings for her or may still be cheating. I think you are completely missing the point. As long as he is still working with her she will take up a place in his mind. There is no avoiding that. It doesn't matter if he still has romantic feelings for her. He DID have romantic feelings for her and that can't be turned off like a switch. When he was gone could you turn it off? No. Well neither can he and he sees her every day. And as long as she is taking up a portion of his mind he can NEVER give you everything that he is. NEVER. You will always be getting the leftovers and that is why your anxiety is off the charts. Because instinctively you know this but you refuse to acknowledge it. Again, back to my bleeding analogy. She is the shard of glass that caused the wound. The shard has been removed but until you stop the bleeding and treat the wound it will not heal. Eventually it will either exsanguinate or become infected and the marriage will not survive.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but I honestly don't know how to help you understand.


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## Rookie4

MrMathias said:


> Wow, yes, thanks for bringing that up, I totally forgot to add 'fear' as part of the equation. My post was getting long  Anger can certainly come from the wellspring of fear. I think recognizing that you have fear in the first place is very hard to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Thick as pea soup
> 
> I've let her do a lot of the talking lately, she's shown me that she can introspect. She's looked inward. That was a big thing for me. I don't see how anyone can even hope to reconcile if you and your WS don't know who, what, where, when, and ultimately WHY.
> 
> Since I've stopped saying negative things (lots of 'thought replacement' strategies required on my part) MrsM has started attacking herself in her dreams- so believe me, if your spouse is remorseful, they've got their own hell to deal with and you as a WS don't need to do anything. You may even find yourself in the odd position of providing comfort to your betrayer :scratchhead:


Matt, something Sweetie told me. When we had our D-day and she made her nasty comments to me, I ALMOST HIT HER. I wanted to, badly. But I didn't, I just told her to leave. Last December, when I had my first meeting with Sweetie and her therapist, I brought up her comments. Sweetie sobbed and said that she never meant any of them, so I asked, 'why did you say them?". She answered, saying that , at the time, she WANTED me to beat her, so she said those things to make me angry enough to do so. She felt so horrible about what she had done that she wanted me to punish her , to help her feel less filthy. (her words, not mine) I reminded her that I never called her any of the names I was thinking and she said that she called herself that and worse for 2 years after the A. I remembered once when we were talking about the kids, she called herself" human garbage". Just think of that, for a moment. How horrible must a person feel to think of themselves as "human garbage"? Sometimes the WS goes through their own private hell.


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## soulpotato

Last year, I told GF that I was trash and that she deserved a lot better than me. At the time I said it, I was thinking about my EAs and what I had put her through, and wondering why it was that I could just never do anything right.


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## soulpotato

margrace said:


> what a difficult, exhausting week. i am torn as i read this, soulpotato. i can see what the therapist is saying about GF's emotional unavailability being the big problem.... and i see that her unavailability has played out for you in painful ways.


It was really horrible. I've lost a lot of other people, but never felt THAT bad about it.  Yes, it has. It has been a problem for us for years, only she didn't see it as OUR problem, she saw it as MY problem. "You need too much," she'd say. "If you were a normal person, this wouldn't be a problem." (She's referring to my BPD when she says that, because my BPD makes me more emotionally needy/demanding. The more she avoids reassuring me, the "louder" and more desperate I get.) Unfortunately I used the EAs to survive that emotional drought and take shelter from other issues we had, even though it was wrong. (All of our fighting these days tends to be centered around our pre-existing issues, not my past affairs. The more I ask for my needs to be taken into consideration as well, the more we're in the trenches.)



margrace said:


> the idea that you had to be restrained from hurting yourself speaks to how painful it all is, and to how desperately you are trying to hang on.


Thank you for saying that. It sounds silly, but it means a lot to me just to have my feelings acknowledged.  

I wanted to tear myself apart to match what I was feeling inside. I remember screaming that I hated myself. I wasn't aware of much else, but GF said I was wailing like a wounded animal and seemed to be gearing up for something bad before she stopped me (neither GF nor the therapist had ever seen me quite that distressed before - GF wasn't around for the other time). I don't know what she makes of all this. Afterward, we went to dinner and tried to smile at each other like we were fine (though my face felt like I probably wasn't succeeding sometimes). I bought her dinner, thanked her for coming to therapy and for spending time with me. Thanked her for granting me a reprieve.

Sometimes I am not sure that GF understands how painful it is for me, and has been for me all these years. I know she has suffered immensely, too, and that my EAs were the equivalent of bombs tossed into her face, so what do I have to complain about? But I can't ignore my own needs and feelings of pain/distress indefinitely, so that's where we've run into the brick wall. I am giving everything I've got to hold onto her and onto whatever we can save. 



margrace said:


> but i also find myself wondering... okay, GF is reassuring you that you are lovable -- and it's clear that you are  but is _she_ still in love with you? does she actively _want_ a future with you? is that foundation still there, deep down within this relationship?


Thank you.  I'm not sure. She says her feelings are still there, but "buried". That she can connect with them at times of great stress, like thinking I'm in some kind of danger. She won't definitively answer the questions about wanting a future with me. It's all dependent on how many of her requirements I can fulfill to her satisfaction. She's afraid of being hurt again. I think the foundation might still be there, because we can still have those times that feel the way they did in the beginning of the relationship when things were generally good, but there's a lot of interference and old grievances and unresolved issues.



margrace said:


> by the end of the session, it sounded to you like you two were going to keep working on things. i know how much you wanted to hear that, and i always think there is hope when both partners truly want to reconcile.


It did, but the most confirmation I received on that was her agreeing to play things by ear and talking about making plans a few weeks from now, so at least there's that. I'm really hoping this will actually be a turning point towards the future that I - we? - want, but I'm also afraid it could be a direct path to hell and I just haven't realized it yet. I honestly don't know if she truly wants to reconcile. If she does, deep down, then we can still make it. But if she doesn't...well, I can't know that until some point in the future, I suppose. 



margrace said:


> what i'm not completely clear about is whether both parties here truly want that. i want you to be hopeful *as long as both of you are committed* to R...


That makes two of us. I don't know if she even knows, and this latest development makes things even more difficult to pin down and sort out.



margrace said:


> remind me, soulpotato, do you have an IC? i ask because it would be great for you to have your own place for support


I do, but we're using my therapist for our joint therapy sessions however (which I pay for), so I am not currently getting solo sessions. My therapist doesn't like this because she wants to work with me on my own, but my immediate priority for the next month or so is this relationship. (I am still working on the homework the therapist gave me a while ago - inner child stuff. I also need to work in my DBT book to remain fresh on that.) GF now has her own personal therapist that she's going to as well.

Know what I find funny? GF was saying that my therapist seems to be a little more "on the borderline's side", but during that last session, my therapist was telling me to notice how GF put aside her needs/feelings to grab me and that she couldn't do that indefinitely, and how GF didn't want to have to deal with my "angry/hurt child", but wanted to have a relationship with an "adult", so I really had to get on looking up some of that reparenting stuff and doing my exercises in my workbook. I was thinking, "Are you really saying this to me when I feel like I've just been thrashed nearly to oblivion?" LOL. It kind of reminded me of my mother, because she didn't want me to be a burden on anyone, either. Meanwhile, what I'm actually hearing is..._try harder, you're still not good enough, you're going to be abandoned again._


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## calvin

Sp I can dig what you say about it being "our" problem.
In CSS's eyes it was all me,I offered MC three times and she turned me down every time.
Now we both take ownership of what went wrong with our marriage,I wont take the blame for her A though.
It takes two to mess it up and it takes both to do the work and fix everything.
Patience for both is a good thing also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

A lot of the work is on the WS.Thats my opinion,the BS should be receptive
to genuine efforts from the WS.
Both should be working towards the same goal,thats where I messed up.
I know better now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

calvin said:


> Sp I can dig what you say about it being "our" problem.
> In CSS's eyes it was all me,I offered MC three times and she turned me down every time.
> Now we both take ownership of what went wrong with our marriage,I wont take the blame for her A though.
> It takes two to mess it up and it takes both to do the work and fix everything.
> Patience for both is a good thing also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cal, what was the breakthrough that led to the two of you getting there? Because THIS is what I'm trying to get GF to understand and accept with me. It has to be "we" and "our" with regard to problems and owning relationship issues, but it has seemed to me that she wants to put the blame for a lot of things squarely on my shoulders. Which is so frustrating, because then we get defensive and just sit there and argue about who's blaming who, who started, etc.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Cal, what was the breakthrough that led to the two of you getting there? Because THIS is what I'm trying to get GF to understand and accept with me. It has to be "we" and "our" with regard to problems and owning relationship issues, but it has seemed to me that she wants to put the blame for a lot of things squarely on my shoulders. Which is so frustrating, because then we get defensive and just sit there and argue about who's blaming who, who started, etc.


Breakthrough?
Interesting,I'm not sure if there was one but there must have been something.
It seemed like we both were buried in a grave but we were not dead,at leat I didnt think so.
On life support? Big yes.
It took a lot of hard looks in the mirror for me,I think the same for CSS.
I guess you could say the break through came when we asked eachother is this what we want?
Did we really want to part forever?
I did'nt.
I'm sorry but I feel this is a question better answered by CSS.
Give it some more time Sp.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brokenshadow

soulpotato said:


> Things just about went off the cliff with GF earlier this week. Tuesday morning, she told me things were over with us (because she couldn't stand to have arguments anymore, and also because she couldn't stand to be with someone who could think about her "that way" - i.e. calling her manipulative and stuff).
> 
> I just about had a breakdown. I was sobbing hysterically all morning, and kept calling her and leaving her messages, begging her to answer the phone or to talk to me (she had stopped responding to anything the night before). I begged her to come to therapy, but she wouldn't confirm anything. When she was late, I feared that she wasn't coming and that that was her answer. But she ended up showing up partway through the session (she told me later that she didn't know why she came, she just did).
> 
> Suffice to say, it was a rough session. I had some hope when GF came in, but then things seemed off the table again. It pushed me over the edge and I lost it a bit. For some reason, GF grabbed my hands before I could really get started trying to hurt myself. I don't understand why she acts and speaks the way she does, and doesn't respond when I am desperate other times, but then would do something like grab my hands and restrain me then. I could hear her voice telling me that I was lovable, and not to hate myself, to stop trying to hurt myself.
> 
> Towards the end of the session, things calmed down and she was talking like we were going to keep working on things and that we could play it by ear. The therapist said no pressure, no decisions. So I am trying to just stay positive and take it easy, but it's hard. GF said NO fights, none at all, otherwise that was it. She said she can't handle one more fight. That we are on the dregs of her ability to work on anything, to stay in this situation.
> 
> The therapist did say that if this fails, it won't be because of me or my BPD. She said it would be more about GF not being capable of being fully present in any relationship, or able to provide that for anyone, at least right now. Also that we are at opposite ends of the emotionality spectrum. I think the therapist was just as surprised as I was when GF walked in.
> 
> SO. No arguments. If I feel attacked, criticized, or blamed, I am going to call a time-out and try to wait until things cool off to talk about anything. I'm also going to try to start keeping a notebook of things that bother me or things I want to talk about and see if I can't hold off bringing them up until therapy sessions instead of as they occur. I'm going to do my best to keep things positive in the day-to-day, regardless of how I feel.
> 
> I can't stand the thought of losing her. I know that's unhealthy, but for me, it's reality. Losing her is the worst-case scenario ever. I don't ever want to feel again how I felt earlier this week. Trying to struggle with her over the core issues has only made things worse and pushed us apart, so I'm going to try to do this differently.


I know you care for her, that's evident in your post, but had vengeance ever occurred to you as an impulse? An I alone in that? The desire to wreck such horrific pain, on a spiritual level, so as to destroy a persons concept of who they are? To swallow their soul completely, and see if that provides relief?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

soulpotato, have you considered a little 180-ish behavior? By that I mean, stop pursuing, be the most upbeat, non-clingy, independent you that you can be? Not because you necessarily feel all upbeat and independent, but because behaving that way can help you to BEGIN to bring about a shift inside of you (feelings follow behavior), and bit by bit you may start to actually feel a little more like you're behaving! WITH the added bonus of making GF slightly curious and possibly more interested/attracted. It would (hopefully) mean no fights - which she has asked for - and that would help promote continued work on R.


----------



## daisygirl 41

SG thank you for your response.

Bfree, I do get it. I agree with what you are saying. I think you are probably right, maybe I have given up fighting. I'm tired and worn out by it all. He knows how I feels about the work situation. I've told him. We talked about it all in depth again last night. We are really hanging on by a thread. I don't know what else to say!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/85665-what-am-i-doing-wrong-2-months-watching-nothing.html

Quick version:
Wife has been depressed since December and very withdrawn and sad. Lots of crying and drinking. I eventually suspect she might have cheated and turns out I was right. My wife confessed to an affair (with her boss that resulted with in an aborted pregnancy) a couple of weeks ago. It lasted from Dec to Feb. I left home then and just came back today. She has been wreaked with guilt since it started and has been remorseful since Dday. So I'm giving her another try. Her mom and sister came to stay with her while I was gone and my sister just recently arrived and is now staying with us as well.

When I got home she literally jumped me crying saying thank you a lot. Had to carry her in along with my bags. It was awkward at first it got better after a while. I couldn't take another day with no exercise so I was going to our regular gym by the house since my wrist still messed up. W wanted to come and work out with me. The whole time back she has been following me like a lost puppy literally every room except the bathroom. (Is that normal for a remorseful WS? I mean its fine now but I can definitely see at some point in the near future me being pissed the f### off and that will only irritate me more. Should I tell her now she needs to back off some or wait a bit?) I'm just now able to get some alone time on my laptop in the den and my sister is running interference. W is somewhere upstairs with her mom and sister upset. She is crying now because I'm not going to sleep in our bed but down stairs on the couch here in the den. She is going to share our bed with her sister and her mom and my sister get the guest rooms.

And yes I am very much cool with sleeping down here on the couch. Its comfy as s### and I like the privacy and quiet. So first day back home not that bad.


----------



## Robsia

Hey RTBP - Been following your thread since the beginning. Sorry you've had to join our little band.

I do think that you and your wife have a good chance of R. She is doing all the right things so far. It's up to you. You don't have to take her back. Don't feel obliged, just because she is remorseful.

It's all about what you want now.


----------



## margrace

Refuse to be played said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-i-doing-wrong-2-months-watching-nothing.html
> 
> Quick version:
> ...My wife confessed to an affair (with her boss that resulted with in an aborted pregnancy) a couple of weeks ago....She has been wreaked with guilt since it started and has been remorseful since Dday. So I'm giving her another try.
> 
> ...The whole time back she has been following me like a lost puppy literally every room except the bathroom. (Is that normal for a remorseful WS? ... She is crying now because I'm not going to sleep in our bed but down stairs on the couch here in the den. She is going to share our bed with her sister and her mom and my sister get the guest rooms.
> 
> And yes I am very much cool with sleeping down here on the couch. Its comfy as s### and I like the privacy and quiet. So first day back home not that bad.


hi rtbp: as robsia said, welcome, and i'm sorry that you're here.

about your wife's behavior -- you'll get great insights on that from the remorseful WSs on this thread. i'm a BS, and i have learned so much from them. my first impression is that your wife understands (and feels) the seriousness of this betrayal and is moving quickly toward remorsefulness -- which not all WSs do right away. 

she still has lots of work to do if your R is going to be successful, but it seems like you have a promising place to start.

... IF that's what _you_ want. 

that's the missing information for me, and i guess it's what robsia was getting at as well. how do you feel about her and what do _you_ want? i know there are a lot of different feelings mixed in there  and also that you might not know what you want for sure yet -- but as best as you can tell, in your heart of hearts, what do you want?


----------



## margrace

soulpotato said:


> Know what I find funny? GF was saying that my therapist seems to be a little more "on the borderline's side", but during that last session, my therapist was telling me to notice how GF put aside her needs/feelings to grab me and that she couldn't do that indefinitely, and how GF didn't want to have to deal with my "angry/hurt child", but wanted to have a relationship with an "adult", so I really had to get on looking up some of that reparenting stuff and doing my exercises in my workbook. I was thinking, "Are you really saying this to me when I feel like I've just been thrashed nearly to oblivion?" LOL. It kind of reminded me of my mother, because she didn't want me to be a burden on anyone, either. Meanwhile, what I'm actually hearing is..._try harder, you're still not good enough, you're going to be abandoned again._


just a little p.s. about this, soulpotato. you are doing such hard work, and bearing up under so much pain... still, i am cheering you on NOT to hear things in this way. 

*i know you know all this*, i'm just putting it in writing: 

your therapist is NOT your mother and she's NOT telling you that you aren't good enough. she is someone who understands you deeply and who cares about you enough to say, _hey, soulpotato, you know all those things that we talk about in here, all that good work that you've been doing in session? well, *here's* a place where you can put it into action in real life to create the kind of relationship that you want and deserve._

we have seen how GF has tons of work to do on her emotional unavailability. here's where you maybe have a little bit to do


----------



## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> SG thank you for your response.
> 
> Bfree, I do get it. I agree with what you are saying. I think you are probably right, maybe I have given up fighting. I'm tired and worn out by it all. He knows how I feels about the work situation. I've told him. We talked about it all in depth again last night. We are really hanging on by a thread. I don't know what else to say!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you told him that the reason your anxiety is spiking is because he is still working there? Have you told him that you have to keep increasing the amount of medication to dull your senses because he refuses to quit his job? Have you told him that you feel the marriage is hanging on a thread because he refuses to leave his work? Have you asked him if his job is more important than you or the marriage? Have you laid it all out there for him or are you "waiting for him to decide." Many times when marriages go bad its because each partner assumes the other partner will do "the right thing," will think of them first, will automatically know what needs to be done or what they need done. Its simply not the case. You have to say the words "if you do not quit your job we cannot stay married." Then if he needs more of an explanation you can explain about the incredible amount of anxiety you feel, the fact that no marriage recovers under those conditions, the fact that he is shutting down, the fact that when he wasn't working there you both were doing well and now....not so much. But you have to say it, loud and clear.

*THIS MARRIAGE WILL NOT SURVIVE WITH YOU WORKING THERE!*

Then if he still won't quit tell him you both should contact a lawyer in the morning.

Men sometimes need a wakeup call. We tend to ignore a lot as we go through our daily activities plodding along from hour to hour. A hug and a whisper might work with most women but if you don't crack him over the head with a 2x4 he's not even going to notice you. And if you don't feel up to cracking him with a 2x4, send him here. I'll be happy to do it for you.


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## soulpotato

Brokenshadow said:


> I know you care for her, that's evident in your post, but had vengeance ever occurred to you as an impulse? An I alone in that? The desire to wreck such horrific pain, on a spiritual level, so as to destroy a persons concept of who they are? To swallow their soul completely, and see if that provides relief?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I admit that the thought has flitted through my mind (and scared me senseless). It would not be hard for her to destroy my already unstable sense of self, but I think whatever happens, she knows she would feel worse in the end. She has never been a vengeful person, so while I think she wants to punish me, I don't think she'd ever want to _destroy_ me.


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/85665-what-am-i-doing-wrong-2-months-watching-nothing.html
> 
> Quick version:
> Wife has been depressed since December and very withdrawn and sad. Lots of crying and drinking. I eventually suspect she might have cheated and turns out I was right. My wife confessed to an affair (with her boss that resulted with in an aborted pregnancy) a couple of weeks ago. It lasted from Dec to Feb. I left home then and just came back today. She has been wreaked with guilt since it started and has been remorseful since Dday. So I'm giving her another try. Her mom and sister came to stay with her while I was gone and my sister just recently arrived and is now staying with us as well.
> 
> When I got home she literally jumped me crying saying thank you a lot. Had to carry her in along with my bags. It was awkward at first it got better after a while. I couldn't take another day with no exercise so I was going to our regular gym by the house since my wrist still messed up. W wanted to come and work out with me. The whole time back she has been following me like a lost puppy literally every room except the bathroom. (Is that normal for a remorseful WS? I mean its fine now but I can definitely see at some point in the near future me being pissed the f### off and that will only irritate me more. Should I tell her now she needs to back off some or wait a bit?) I'm just now able to get some alone time on my laptop in the den and my sister is running interference. W is somewhere upstairs with her mom and sister upset. She is crying now because I'm not going to sleep in our bed but down stairs on the couch here in the den. She is going to share our bed with her sister and her mom and my sister get the guest rooms.
> 
> And yes I am very much cool with sleeping down here on the couch. Its comfy as s### and I like the privacy and quiet. So first day back home not that bad.


Echoing what Robsia and margrace have said and also think about having your wife post in this thread as well. As you go through the stages that are normal for a BS you may find that she is unprepared for what may come. Having her posting here can help her by talking to other BS and WS and see not only what is to come but how to handle it and what worked. Plus its a good outlet for her so that she knows she's not alone.


----------



## russell28

My update.. Asked wife what story OM gave her about his horrible sex life, since his GF had no suspicions when I asked, I figure his home life wasn't what he made it out to be.. She said he said they never had sex because she had a hysterectomy,.. Told her they don't take the vagina out, asked what her story was, she told me that she said ours was just 'more of the same'.. I asked how many years in before he became 'same old same old' she cried a bunch... Told her it was boring for her because she had 'checked out' of the marriage already, and I was trying, she wanted no part of any of my kinky suggestions and it takes two to tango, and I was also getting the same... This was last night. Woke up still hurt and angry, thanked her for telling me that.

I got a room for us on the ocean w fireplace and jacuzzi in the bedroom for tomorrow and the next night, need to get back to a positive place now that I got an answer that hurt.... Not that I didn't expect it, or that it didn't already hurt....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> soulpotato, have you considered a little 180-ish behavior? By that I mean, stop pursuing, be the most upbeat, non-clingy, independent you that you can be? Not because you necessarily feel all upbeat and independent, but because behaving that way can help you to BEGIN to bring about a shift inside of you (feelings follow behavior), and bit by bit you may start to actually feel a little more like you're behaving! WITH the added bonus of making GF slightly curious and possibly more interested/attracted. It would (hopefully) mean no fights - which she has asked for - and that would help promote continued work on R.


Thank you, HG.  I have made an effort to be less available periodically, to not check my phone and email as often, but then she thinks I'm actively ignoring her and lets me know how she feels about that. (This is kind of a double standard with GF, though...it's not okay for me to be unresponsive, but it's okay for her.) She does look for me and seem to miss me at those times, though. I'm not necessarily clingy all that often (I was more like that when I started trying to get her to consider R), but I tend to be more sensitive and needy than your average person. I don't usually ask about coming over or making plans - I let her offer.


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## soulpotato

margrace said:


> just a little p.s. about this, soulpotato. you are doing such hard work, and bearing up under so much pain... still, i am cheering you on NOT to hear things in this way.
> 
> *i know you know all this*, i'm just putting it in writing:
> 
> your therapist is NOT your mother and she's NOT telling you that you aren't good enough. she is someone who understands you deeply and who cares about you enough to say, _hey, soulpotato, you know all those things that we talk about in here, all that good work that you've been doing in session? well, *here's* a place where you can put it into action in real life to create the kind of relationship that you want and deserve._
> 
> we have seen how GF has tons of work to do on her emotional unavailability. here's where you maybe have a little bit to do


As part of my therapy, my therapist is actually supposed to be reparenting me since something went wrong with the original parenting I received (or didn't). So that's probably what she was _trying_ to do right then. When a child is behaving in a way that is difficult or inappropriate, a parent is supposed to guide them towards a "better" way. But the reparenting stuff can be tricky to do.

I do still have a lot of work to do, I know. I'll be in therapy for years.

Margrace, have you ever thought about becoming a therapist? I think you'd be great at it.  You are terrific.


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## bfree

russell28 said:


> My update.. Asked wife what story OM gave her about his horrible sex life, since his GF had no suspicions when I asked, I figure his home life wasn't what he made it out to be.. She said he said they never had sex because she had a hysterectomy,.. Told her they don't take the vagina out, asked what her story was, she told me that she said ours was just 'more of the same'.. I asked how many years in before he became 'same old same old' she cried a bunch... Told her it was boring for her because she had 'checked out' of the marriage already, and I was trying, she wanted no part of any of my kinky suggestions and it takes two to tango, and I was also getting the same... This was last night. Woke up still hurt and angry, thanked her for telling me that.
> 
> I got a room for us on the ocean w fireplace and jacuzzi in the bedroom for tomorrow and the next night, need to get back to a positive place now that I got an answer that hurt.... Not that I didn't expect it, or that it didn't already hurt....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Slow and steady Russ. You know the facts but the context can still be hurtful. When you find out the context of something and you feel the anger and hurt take a few days to get back into a positive mindset. Remember that even though in reality nothing you are now learning is new it still reopens wounds. The original trauma is the same but the pain is fresh. Let them heal over before you rip off the scab once again. As long as your wife is still demonstrating remorse and working to rebuild the relationship you can safely keep moving forward.


----------



## bfree

bfree said:


> Have you told him that the reason your anxiety is spiking is because he is still working there? Have you told him that you have to keep increasing the amount of medication to dull your senses because he refuses to quit his job? Have you told him that you feel the marriage is hanging on a thread because he refuses to leave his work? Have you asked him if his job is more important than you or the marriage? Have you laid it all out there for him or are you "waiting for him to decide." Many times when marriages go bad its because each partner assumes the other partner will do "the right thing," will think of them first, will automatically know what needs to be done or what they need done. Its simply not the case. You have to say the words "if you do not quit your job we cannot stay married." Then if he needs more of an explanation you can explain about the incredible amount of anxiety you feel, the fact that no marriage recovers under those conditions, the fact that he is shutting down, the fact that when he wasn't working there you both were doing well and now....not so much. But you have to say it, loud and clear.
> 
> *THIS MARRIAGE WILL NOT SURVIVE WITH YOU WORKING THERE!*
> 
> Then if he still won't quit tell him you both should contact a lawyer in the morning.
> 
> Men sometimes need a wakeup call. We tend to ignore a lot as we go through our daily activities plodding along from hour to hour. A hug and a whisper might work with most women but if you don't crack him over the head with a 2x4 he's not even going to notice you. And if you don't feel up to cracking him with a 2x4, send him here. I'll be happy to do it for you.


Mrs bfree wanted me at add:

As wonderful a husband as bfree is sometimes he still doesn't listen to me when I need him to. Its not like he is purposefully ignoring me. Just that he gets so wrapped up in daily issues that he puts me on the back burner when I need to be front and center. When he does this I walk over to him, grab his face and give him a huge wet sloppy kiss. Then I look him in the eyes and say "I need you to listen to me for a few minutes." Believe me that gets his attention and then we work through what I need to discuss with him. Men are very focus driven. If he is not totally focused on you then he is not focused on you at all.


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## hopefulgirl

I rarely have bad dreams, but I had one last night. Had a discussion with WS yesterday. He was making plans for today with a friend.

At first, I wasn't sure if the friend was coming to the house before they'd be going off to do their thing, and I was uncomfortable because at one point when I was doing the 180, WS was convinced I was leaving him, so he saw a divorce attorney for prelimnary info and he got the name of the atty from this friend (who's divorced). 

I asked what he told this friend about our situation. He said he didn't know ANYTHING; he just got the number from him, and asked if it would make me uncomfortable around the friend if he did know something. This got my bs detector on high alert.

I said of course it would make me uncomfortable, and my WS asked why. I thought that was a stupid question, and I answered it but in retrospect, I'm thinking it was a buying time question (a way to make up a story as to how he got the number without giving away that we're having problems, and he did come up with a good one).

(As it turned out, they decided to meet where they're going to do their activity. Whew.)

So, in my dream, I was hitting him, telling him I didn't believe that his friend really brought up in conversation an error in his child support deduction on his paycheck and that he said he needed to call his attorney, and that my WS jokingly said "what's his name, so if I ever need one I'll know not to use him." And I said that I didn't believe he really didn't understand why I'd be uncomfortable around someone he'd told about our marriage problems.

I think that if he did discuss it with him, I'm sure he neglected to tell him about his affair because he is so ashamed of it!

I'm going to discuss this with him today. Problem is, I can't check out if he's telling me the truth when I ask him if he was telling me the truth.


----------



## CEL

RTBP okay I posted in your thread on what to do to build your WS up and kind of move on from where you are. I posted some stuff on physical interaction but I will repost some of the ideas here but I want to address a few different categories. Please if any of the gurus disagree please correct me if I go off base.


Her
I want to address the trauma that she is going through right now. This does not invalidate you pain and I am nor comparing who is hurting worse I just think that having a good idea of where she is can only help you understand her.

1. She cheated this alone is a self destructive process how many conversations did you have with her on cheating and I bet every time she thought cheaters where scum right? Now she is one all those times she was not lying she genuinely believed that unfortunately she made bad choices and became something she hates. She knows she betrayed the man she loves above all. She knows that her actions have caused maybe the most devastating event in your life. She knows even more that she is capable of EXTREME cruelty. On this alone many WS feel broken by their actions who they thought they were is gone and it is by their own actions. If they have never hated before they find it even crueler that they have learned how to hate by hating themselves. This is a core change she will never look at herself in the same way never again will she look in the mirror and be able to have that same untarnished view of herself.

2. She killed her child. I will not get into the right and wrong of abortion as it has no place in this discussion. For her who always wanted children she was faced with the most devastating of choices her child or you. And she chose you. Her guilt on this has to be massive she always wanted children and yet she aborted hers and it was due to her actions she will deal with this for the rest of her life. Her guilt on shame will be devastating my guess is that being a mother has always been a hope of hers and here she is having aborted her child it will forever impact how she views that side of her life. She will forever deal with this. She may never feel she deserves another chance at that life that her punishment should be to NEVER be mother because of this. Add to all this that the event was HER fault so to not only be the victim but the assailant is just horrible to contemplate. 

3. Now add to the above that coming out and telling you could of resulted in losing you. I would of meant she aborted her child for nothing. Can you imagine the damage that would do to someone to make the horrible choice of your husband or your child and then to lose them both. Tragedy worthy of Shakespeare truly.

4. Her behavior to you for months shows that the guilt and shame were slowly eating her alive for you it is new but for her the anxiety and pain have been going on for months. Because she was unable to tell you earlier she considers herself a coward. Because she cheated she considers herself unworthy of trust. Because she lied she considers herself a liar, not in the sense we all are liars but in the sense of the kind of person who can betray a person with their lies. Because she betrayed you she considers herself unworthy of you love.

5. Lets talk about why she TT you. She did it because she felt her actions where so heinous not just the cheating but the abortion that she felt NO ONE could continue to love her after that. She felt worthless. Unworthy of being loved. Unworthy of being trusted. Unworthy of you. Her self-worth is gone. The TT was to protect herself in the way that she felt if you truly knew the truth you could not possibly love her.

6. When you were gone all the above became magnified 10x worse. This is what I was afraid of for you it was time to get it together but for you it was downward spiral where all she could thing of was the above if her family had not been there I would of recommended a suicide watch. Her is the deal a marriage is 50 you went away to work on your 50 so you would not damage her 50. But your being away caused her to self destruct and she lost a good 30 from just you being away as really all the above was confirmed when you left. That she was all that she thought she was. I am not blaming you as it is what you thought you had to do but this is what I was afraid of. A relationship that is damaged does not get better when apart.

7. She was left with her mom and sister so from what you have said I am sure they have been there for but I am also sure they made sure to make clear that this damage was her doing. Now that is not the most helpful of advice that should come out after the bleeding has stopped. Instead this probably just reinforced the fact that she was garbage and worthless.


So where does that leave you? With a wife who is bleeding out and dying in front of you. Now is the time to start working on emergency treatment before she does herself more harm below are going to be some steps that you can take.

1. Physical touch I said this in my last one post on your thread. You need to get the mom and sister out of the room and just spend time snuggled up with her watching tv. Something calm and easy talk about other stuff besides the affair I will get more into that in number 2. You should be touching her for all the time you are together remember in a real way she thought you were dead to her and that she had killed her child for nothing that she has NO self worth right now. If you are in the house walking then hold hands. Making dinner have your arm around her. Be as close to her as possible. If you don't feel like sex have her sleep down with you on the couch and just hold her. This is also for you as this touching will help you start the rebonding.

2. Most of your talks have revolved around the affair in the past few times you have talked so here is what I want you to try set a date to talk about it again so you can get the last info you need. And then let it go until then talk about OTHER things this will fill the need for intimate conversation. I am not saying let go of your pain or to inflict pain upon yourself I am saying if you able to be happy for some time then take it. There is more to your lives together than the affair.

3. When she is gone from you send lots of texts at least one an hour. Right now any time she is not with you she will think the most horrible thoughts that will torture her. She will believe that when she gets home you will have left as she cannot see why you would stay with her.

4. When you have to leave TAKE HER WITH YOU. You work out have her come with you. You go to Muay Thai have her watch. This will mean the world to her just to be with you and to be part of your life. I know it may be an inconvenience for you but not taking her will be PAINFUL for her so just measure the worth vs the gain.

5. Now some books to read TOGETHER in order that I would read them.
Surviving an Affair
His Needs Her Needs
Love Busters

Now you may be asking why do I have to do the heavy lifting? Because you are in a much better place the trauma she is going through is so MAJOR she is just not able to handle this stuff. For the past few weeks you have had good support from those that care about you and better yet understand WHAT you were going through she has had people that where there for her but had no understanding what she was going through or needed. And most likely reminder her this was her doing. You are further ahead then she is. Again you need to help her with her 50 percent of the marriage once she gets away from bleeding out then she can do more but right now the main focus has to be just keeping her together. Plus the above will help you forge good positive connections with her. And as always sorry if I am stepping on any toes in the recon thread I may as always be completely full of bull


----------



## Refuse to be played

CEL said:


> RTBP okay I posted in your thread on what to do to build your WS up and kind of move on from where you are. I posted some stuff on physical interaction but I will repost some of the ideas here but I want to address a few different categories. Please if any of the gurus disagree please correct me if I go off base.
> 
> 
> Her
> I want to address the trauma that she is going through right now. This does not invalidate you pain and I am nor comparing who is hurting worse I just think that having a good idea of where she is can only help you understand her.
> 
> 1. She cheated this alone is a self destructive process how many conversations did you have with her on cheating and I bet every time she thought cheaters where scum right? Now she is one all those times she was not lying she genuinely believed that unfortunately she made bad choices and became something she hates. She knows she betrayed the man she loves above all. She knows that her actions have caused maybe the most devastating event in your life. She knows even more that she is capable of EXTREME cruelty. On this alone many WS feel broken by their actions who they thought they were is gone and it is by their own actions. If they have never hated before they find it even crueler that they have learned how to hate by hating themselves. This is a core change she will never look at herself in the same way never again will she look in the mirror and be able to have that same untarnished view of herself.
> 
> 2. She killed her child. I will not get into the right and wrong of abortion as it has no place in this discussion. For her who always wanted children she was faced with the most devastating of choices her child or you. And she chose you. Her guilt on this has to be massive she always wanted children and yet she aborted hers and it was due to her actions she will deal with this for the rest of her life. Her guilt on shame will be devastating my guess is that being a mother has always been a hope of hers and here she is having aborted her child it will forever impact how she views that side of her life. She will forever deal with this. She may never feel she deserves another chance at that life that her punishment should be to NEVER be mother because of this. Add to all this that the event was HER fault so to not only be the victim but the assailant is just horrible to contemplate.
> 
> 3. Now add to the above that coming out and telling you could of resulted in losing you. I would of meant she aborted her child for nothing. Can you imagine the damage that would do to someone to make the horrible choice of your husband or your child and then to lose them both. Tragedy worthy of Shakespeare truly.
> 
> 4. Her behavior to you for months shows that the guilt and shame were slowly eating her alive for you it is new but for her the anxiety and pain have been going on for months. Because she was unable to tell you earlier she considers herself a coward. Because she cheated she considers herself unworthy of trust. Because she lied she considers herself a liar, not in the sense we all are liars but in the sense of the kind of person who can betray a person with their lies. Because she betrayed you she considers herself unworthy of you love.
> 
> 5. Lets talk about why she TT you. She did it because she felt her actions where so heinous not just the cheating but the abortion that she felt NO ONE could continue to love her after that. She felt worthless. Unworthy of being loved. Unworthy of being trusted. Unworthy of you. Her self-worth is gone. The TT was to protect herself in the way that she felt if you truly knew the truth you could not possibly love her.
> 
> 6. When you were gone all the above became magnified 10x worse. This is what I was afraid of for you it was time to get it together but for you it was downward spiral where all she could thing of was the above if her family had not been there I would of recommended a suicide watch. Her is the deal a marriage is 50 you went away to work on your 50 so you would not damage her 50. But your being away caused her to self destruct and she lost a good 30 from just you being away as really all the above was confirmed when you left. That she was all that she thought she was. I am not blaming you as it is what you thought you had to do but this is what I was afraid of. A relationship that is damaged does not get better when apart.
> 
> 7. She was left with her mom and sister so from what you have said I am sure they have been there for but I am also sure they made sure to make clear that this damage was her doing. Now that is not the most helpful of advice that should come out after the bleeding has stopped. Instead this probably just reinforced the fact that she was garbage and worthless.
> 
> 
> So where does that leave you? With a wife who is bleeding out and dying in front of you. Now is the time to start working on emergency treatment before she does herself more harm below are going to be some steps that you can take.
> 
> 1. Physical touch I said this in my last one post on your thread. You need to get the mom and sister out of the room and just spend time snuggled up with her watching tv. Something calm and easy talk about other stuff besides the affair I will get more into that in number 2. You should be touching her for all the time you are together remember in a real way she thought you were dead to her and that she had killed her child for nothing that she has NO self worth right now. If you are in the house walking then hold hands. Making dinner have your arm around her. Be as close to her as possible. If you don't feel like sex have her sleep down with you on the couch and just hold her. This is also for you as this touching will help you start the rebonding.
> 
> 2. Most of your talks have revolved around the affair in the past few times you have talked so here is what I want you to try set a date to talk about it again so you can get the last info you need. And then let it go until then talk about OTHER things this will fill the need for intimate conversation. I am not saying let go of your pain or to inflict pain upon yourself I am saying if you able to be happy for some time then take it. There is more to your lives together than the affair.
> 
> 3. When she is gone from you send lots of texts at least one an hour. Right now any time she is not with you she will think the most horrible thoughts that will torture her. She will believe that when she gets home you will have left as she cannot see why you would stay with her.
> 
> 4. When you have to leave TAKE HER WITH YOU. You work out have her come with you. You go to Muay Thai have her watch. This will mean the world to her just to be with you and to be part of your life. I know it may be an inconvenience for you but not taking her will be PAINFUL for her so just measure the worth vs the gain.
> 
> 5. Now some books to read TOGETHER in order that I would read them.
> Surviving an Affair
> His Needs Her Needs
> Love Busters
> 
> Now you may be asking why do I have to do the heavy lifting? Because you are in a much better place the trauma she is going through is so MAJOR she is just not able to handle this stuff. For the past few weeks you have had good support from those that care about you and better yet understand WHAT you were going through she has had people that where there for her but had no understanding what she was going through or needed. And most likely reminder her this was her doing. You are further ahead then she is. Again you need to help her with her 50 percent of the marriage once she gets away from bleeding out then she can do more but right now the main focus has to be just keeping her together. Plus the above will help you forge good positive connections with her. And as always sorry if I am stepping on any toes in the recon thread I may as always be completely full of bull


Not going to lie. On some level I thought to myself why should I have to be the one who does the heavy lifting when she was the one who wronged me, but I see the validity of your words. I have already went to the grocery store to get some stuff she likes so we can cook together. I stopped have way through your post just to send her a text as you advised. I'm hearing what your saying and I will make a concentrated effort to rebuild her.

Another thing. Your second point regarding her concerns me a bit. I still do love her and wish to get over this and R. Despite that, her decision puts me in an awkward position. Should I determine that I can't get over this and we separate or D I become the bad guy. She gave up so much to stay with me I get that but IDK.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> Not going to lie. On some level I thought to myself why should I have to be the one who does the heavy lifting when she was the one who wronged me, but I see the validity of your words. I have already went to the grocery store to get some stuff she likes so we can cook together. I stopped have way through your post just to send her a text as you advised. I'm hearing what your saying and I will make a concentrated effort to rebuild her.
> 
> Another thing. Your second point regarding her concerns me a bit. I still do love her and wish to get over this and R. Despite that, her decision puts me in an awkward position. Should I determine that I can't get over this and we separate or D I become the bad guy. She gave up so much to stay with me I get that but IDK.


No, none of this is your choice. You were not allowed to take part in any of those decisions. Here is where I will disagree. If she has issues regarding any of HER choices then she should work through them in IC. This is all new for you. You may think you've hit the anger stage but trust me, you haven't. You are going to go through so much emotional turmoil that I don't think there is any way you can truly build her back up by yourself. Sure you can be supportive and understanding but you are going to be too busy dealing with your own angst to be of much help to her much of the time. She needs to find herself a good IC and a separate support system because if she doesn't help you through your triggers her worst fears will be realized.


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## CEL

Refuse to be played said:


> Not going to lie. On some level I thought to myself why should I have to be the one who does the heavy lifting when she was the one who wronged me, but I see the validity of your words. I have already went to the grocery store to get some stuff she likes so we can cook together. I stopped have way through your post just to send her a text as you advised. I'm hearing what your saying and I will make a concentrated effort to rebuild her.
> 
> Another thing. Your second point regarding her concerns me a bit. I still do love her and wish to get over this and R. Despite that, her decision puts me in an awkward position. Should I determine that I can't get over this and we separate or D I become the bad guy. She gave up so much to stay with me I get that but IDK.



You thinking of a mountain you have not even seen yet. Don't worry about a week or a month down the road right now your are here. I can make a guarantee where you are right now and where she is in the future is going to be DIFFERENT. Let me make an analogy right now you are fighting one opponent who is big, fast but not as strong as you. While in the Octagon you are thinking about your next opponent who you have have never seen you just know he is a fighter in fact you may not even have to fight him. Make sense? Don't pay money on a loan you have not taken out. Right now just focus on today tomorrow will take care of itself. 

Oh and thanks for coming to the recon thread I would of been unable to post the above in your thread it would of gotten flamed and destroyed. Here you have much more supportive people who don't mind the fact that I care about ALL people both BS and WS. I would encourage you to have her post but in a week or so when she is more stable. 

A few things for you. You are a great guy to love your wife still. You are a strong person to TRY to reconcile. You are showing a tremendous amount of courage. You are showing your TRUE character. She is VERY lucky to have. And hey we got your back


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## CEL

bfree said:


> No, none of this is your choice. You were not allowed to take part in any of those decisions. Here is where I will disagree. If she has issues regarding any of HER choices then she should work through them in IC. This is all new for you. You may think you've hit the anger stage but trust me, you haven't. You are going to go through so much emotional turmoil that I don't think there is any way you can truly build her back up by yourself. Sure you can be supportive and understanding but you are going to be too busy dealing with your own angst to be of much help to her much of the time. She needs to find herself a good IC and a separate support system because if she doesn't help you through your triggers her worst fears will be realized.



I think they have IC planned for this week I vaguely "sorry memory going" remember that she had already called some and set up an appointment. I did not mean for him to be her SOLE source forever just to prevent the continued bleeding NOW. I think they have a good plan of both IC and MC. 

I guess my take is that this is different because she has SHATTERED so to speak until she can come out of that she can't really take care of herself or him. I think a week of having him around and him reaffirming that he is willing to TRY will give her more stability and moving forward having IC and MC will help a lot in dealing with this. This is just emergency care plan to get to that point. 

However I bow down to your GURUNESS and I will honestly say that if I fear one poster it would be you....


----------



## Refuse to be played

CEL said:


> I think they have IC planned for this week I vaguely "sorry memory going" remember that she had already called some and set up an appointment. I did not mean for him to be her SOLE source forever just to prevent the continued bleeding NOW. I think they have a good plan of both IC and MC.
> 
> I guess my take is that this is different because she has SHATTERED so to speak until she can come out of that she can't really take care of herself or him. I think a week of having him around and him reaffirming that he is willing to TRY will give her more stability and moving forward having IC and MC will help a lot in dealing with this. This is just emergency care plan to get to that point.
> 
> However I bow down to your GURUNESS and I will honestly say that if I fear one poster it would be you....


She started IC a couple of weeks ago and I just started mine. We have yet to get MC but we might do it with my counselor.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



CEL said:


> I think they have IC planned for this week I vaguely "sorry memory going" remember that she had already called some and set up an appointment. I did not mean for him to be her SOLE source forever just to prevent the continued bleeding NOW. I think they have a good plan of both IC and MC.
> 
> I guess my take is that this is different because she has SHATTERED so to speak until she can come out of that she can't really take care of herself or him. I think a week of having him around and him reaffirming that he is willing to TRY will give her more stability and moving forward having IC and MC will help a lot in dealing with this. This is just emergency care plan to get to that point.
> 
> However I bow down to your GURUNESS and I will honestly say that if I fear one poster it would be you....


I completely understand what you're driving at and in general you are correct that they should both be making this journey together. However reality is that when the BS starts going through the rollercoaster all good intentions are left by the wayside. If he starts feeling that he is carrying the burden of R he is going to start building up resentment. She needs to get herself into a better place in order to support the reconciliation. This is where the weak get separated from the strong because only the strong can survive the R path. It's not for the faint of heart. If she has a good support system aside from her husband she will find the strength to help him through his triggers and mind movies. TAM can be one of the ways she can receive support which is why I suggested she may consider coming to this thread so that all the fWS and BS can help and share what worked for them. It's a tough journey but a rewarding one.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> She started IC a couple of weeks ago and I just started mine. We have yet to get MC but we might do it with my counselor.


You should have a separate MC. Your IC counselor should be yours and yours alone. You are going to need an avenue all for yourself without the complication of MC getting in the way. Trust me on this.


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## Mr Blunt

*To Refused to be Played*

You said that you still love your wife and you have started to do things to help your wife. You are a very good man!

Your wife is a much damaged woman but no one gains by her pains not receiving some relief. It is easy for me to have sympathy for your wife; I am not you. I am glad that you both are getting IC but right now you are the main salve for her wounds. *She definitely will need you and her IC but her emotions will be greatly affected by you at this time.*

Make sure that you also take care of you as you are seriously hurt. The balancing act of you helping your wife and also taking care of you will be a very important act for the foreseeable future. *You have to be strong in order to help the weak.*


You may never get back 100% of the trust and admiration in one area for your wife, but you both can improve in other areas that will really help in the relationship. When you think that you are ready I would suggest that you use this crises motivation and emotions to improve yourself in any areas that will build you up. I am not suggesting for one moment that you are at fault in any way for your wife’s actions. *It is just that that you may now have the motivation to achieve something that you always wanted to achieve*. In my case I went back and finished the college that I dropped out of years ago.


*If you both work at this you can both have a better marriage in some ways.*

To add to the book recommendations I will add this one.

Forgiveness
By DR. Charles Stanley


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## daisygirl 41

Bfree and Mrs Bfree thank you for your continued support. 
Bfree I have told him all those things, apart from the bolded. He knows it. He feels guilty and ashamed. I can see it, but obviously not enough to quit his job eh?

Had a fab day yesterday. My H took the kids out shopping for the day and I went out with 4 of my besties. We had Tapas and lots and lots of wine. We had a great time. It was so nice to have a day away from everything that is going on. We have all been betrayed by our husbands, so as you can imagine, 
The conversations were very interesting. We had a ball. I looked good, I felt good.
H came to pick us up at 10pm ( we went out at 1!!). Got home spent some time together with My daughter. They'd had a good day too. Hubby went to her at 11. I stayed up for a while watching Glastonbury music festival. Guess who appeared about half hour later? Hubby asking me if I was coming to bed for 'cuddles'!! He's in a playful mood this morning too.

Just goes to show doesn't it! Jam going to get my mojo back with or without him. 
Having a 'hangover' day today. Munchies under the duvet and a couple of crappy films! Hubby wants to watch motor gp and the Grand Prix. Nice drama free day!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Bfree and Mrs Bfree thank you for your continued support.
> Bfree I have told him all those things, apart from the bolded. He knows it. He feels guilty and ashamed. I can see it, but obviously not enough to quit his job eh?
> 
> Had a fab day yesterday. My H took the kids out shopping for the day and I went out with 4 of my besties. We had Tapas and lots and lots of wine. We had a great time. It was so nice to have a day away from everything that is going on. We have all been betrayed by our husbands, so as you can imagine,
> The conversations were very interesting. We had a ball. I looked good, I felt good.
> H came to pick us up at 10pm ( we went out at 1!!). Got home spent some time together with My daughter. They'd had a good day too. Hubby went to her at 11. I stayed up for a while watching Glastonbury music festival. Guess who appeared about half hour later? Hubby asking me if I was coming to bed for 'cuddles'!! He's in a playful mood this morning too.
> 
> Just goes to show doesn't it! Jam going to get my mojo back with or without him.
> Having a 'hangover' day today. Munchies under the duvet and a couple of crappy films! Hubby wants to watch motor gp and the Grand Prix. Nice drama free day!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so glad you had a great day yesterday. I want you to notice how much stronger you are now than you were when you first came to TAM. You will be fantastic regardless of what the future holds. I do find it interesting that you spent time away from your H and divested yourself from the marital issues and it had a noticeable effect on him. Maybe that's your answer. When the anxiety gets to be too much....walk away for a while. Just do something for yourself and find some fun activates that don't involve anything but you doing what you want. Not only does it seem to have an effect on him but it also disconnects you emotionally and lets you refresh your energy. :smthumbup:

Oh and just for laughs...Mrs bfree read that you already communicated with your husband and her response was "damned blind fool....can I slap him?!" :rofl:

Love that girl.


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## margrace

> Woke up still hurt and angry, thanked her for telling me that.


*
russell*, you said a mouthful there! made me think about how painful it is to know what happened, but how much *less* painful that is than living with lies and TT. _that_ was torture 

*dg*, i would just echo everything that bfree and mrs. bfree are saying, and glad to hear about your fun day! yes, getting away from the drama for a while and reconnecting with your friends and _yourself_ is so important....

*rtbp*, just wanted to say that all you can do is give R your honest best shot while it is in your heart to do so. even if, in time, you realize that another direction is better for you, that will never make you the bad guy  i know that you will take that new direction with as much compassion for fWS as possible.

*CEL,* i appreciated how you broke it all down from the perspectives of both the WS and BS in rtbp's situation. you really walk the talk of your signature line -- i'm not pro-D or pro-R, i'm pro-you. i asked my fWH to read it, in fact...

...along with *bfree's* response:



> She needs to get herself into a better place in order to support the reconciliation. This is where the weak get separated from the strong because only the strong can survive the R path. It's not for the faint of heart.


this helped us have a good talk this morning about the beginning of R for us. it was 8 months of false R. fWH believed that he wanted to save the marriage, but did not know what all that would require from him (and neither did i). so we were both hanging on in the darkness, but i was doing too much work and he was not doing enough.

everyone here saw that 

that having been said, we were both doing _all that we could_ _do at the time._ he was an angry, shut-down man, a man who was not used to thinking about his feelings and actions and definitely not used to talking about them. he said this morning that his anger was actually at himself, and that he was not capable of understanding that or confronting it immediately. i learned that i was not able to do that for him or even really help him do it. only with therapy did all this start to come together. 

my fWH had to finally be willing to try MC -- and omg, he did not want to! and i had to be strong enough to keep hanging on until he did. *mr. b*., you are explaining that point, too:



> The balancing act of you helping your wife and also taking care of you will be a very important act for the foreseeable future. You have to be strong in order to help the weak.


you have to be strong and you have to give it time! *calvin *only had to tell me that about a hundred times  now fWH is in that better place that bfree wrote about, a place that can support the reconciliation. his ability to support it, to _carry_ it at times, it is not only helping me heal, it has been an opportunity for me to see a new kind of strength in him that i really respect.

okay, so now what? am i supposed to start believing that this R thing can _really_ really happen?  just _let go _and believe it? i almost can't believe it but i think i might believe it


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## bfree

RTBP,

Dig always recommends Kevin Jackson's Survive Her Affair and from what I've seen its really good. Its specifically targeted to men so its definitely a resource for you but it covers all the emotions and issues that men face when their wives cheat on them. Great resource for you to help you wrap your head around this.

So Your Wife Cheated | Free Video | Kevin Jackson


----------



## SomedayDig

I've not been keeping up in the CWI section so I don't really know the details of your story RTBP. However, if bfree is suggesting the Kevin Jackson book, then he's given you great advice. It's helped me a ton - Dday was 3/6/2012 and even though it was very rough in the beginning, it's totally going the right way for us now.

And there are a few reasons. First - SHE was willing to do the work of the wayward spouse. SHE opened up everything to me be they email accounts for personal and professional, facebook, phone records/account log in...basically, if it had a password, she gave it to me. She also installed a GPS tracker on her phone - totally on her own - and gave me the log in so I could see her wherever she was. I used that for about 5 or 6 months. Haven't needed or asked for her to turn it on since.

Next - I had to get sh-t straight with myself. I had to work my own sh-t out cuz dealing with a wayward spouse isn't one of the easiest things to come to terms with. It's actually pretty crummy for obvious reasons. However, if both spouses are truly willing to work at it...and I mean BOTH spouses...then hard work with a good MC and each having their own IC, then you can work through an affair.

Kevin Jackson's book is a good read for several reasons. First, it's written by a guy who's wife cheated on him. He gets it. He's been there and totally understands how we feel. The language may be a tad harsh. Well, who f'ng cares. An affair is pretty damn harsh. It will help you with things from dealing with mind movies to eating properly and exercising. It's also an easy read and since it's in e-book/pdf formatted, well you can leave it on your desktop and refer to it any time you need.


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## Brokenshadow

Open thread, so I guess I'll post here. Had a bit of a blow up with the wife last night. We're trying to R, and in MC. She's been very remorseful, forth coming with information. If she does happen to work late, I can call her desk to make sure she's there, or she'll send me a pic of the time clock. In other words, she's trying. I've felt very angry since I found out about her PA, and more than a little resentful This has come out in little ways, such as comments, or sometimes heated discussions. The issue isn't that she expects me to move on right away, but that, to use her words, she's still on the ground floor with me. She feels that I have this hatred for her, and aren't recognizing how sorry she is, or how much pain she's in. I admit, I have wanted to see that she hurts. This pain is with me all the time, and I want to know I'm not the only one feeling it. 

Reading RTBP's updates lately, I have a lot of respect for him trying to support his wife right now. But when I read about what he's doing, some small part of me thinks I could never do the same. Since, at this time, I'm still willing to try to reconcile, what can I do to start to show her I appreciate her actions? How did everyone here who was betrayed find the strength to be sympathetic to their betrayers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

BigMac has been pretty great recently, but there is one little thing we're still struggling with.

We had a fantastic family day out yesterday. We went to the circus with the kids, among other things, and we all had a really good time. my youngest was all over her Daddy - sitting next to him at the circus and clinging to him pretty much the whole time, which is great.

Then in the evening my friend came to babysit overnight so I could stay at his. We planned to go to the cinema and then have a couple of drinks afterward, then home.

So, we went to his house to drop off my overnight bag before leaving for the cinema. Being in his house always triggers me. It was there that I went through his stuff minutely to find evidence of his affairs, and there that I confronted him on both D-days, and also there are memories of our less than happy marriage. Added to that I never liked it in the first place, so it's a toxic place for me. So when we came out I was a little quiet. He commented on it, and I briefly explained why I was withdrawn. He didn't really say an awful lot - nothing much he _could_ say, really.

So off we go to the cinema. We sit through the trailers and talked about our day. We talked about the circus and he said he had enjoyed it, but that it wasn't as good as the one he had seen last year. Now last year, he went to see the circus with hiw OW1. This comment upset me. Not that he was comparing me with her, or saying the company was better, but that he had referred to somewhere he had been with her and comparing it to a lovely family experience we'd just had. I was upset and went very quiet, sitting with my hands folded and not talking to him. Not being deliberately horrible, I just needed to deal with how his comment had made me feel.

He asked me if I was okay. I said "I'm just processing my feelings about what you just said." He said that he had debated whether he should have said it, but that I had told him honesty was important!! I said that was a little tidbit I didn't need to know. Anyway he went off to the toilet while I processed my thoughts. When he came back I very calmly said that he had been a little insensitive and I would have preferred it if he hadn't said it. He just said "Right," he didn't apologise or anything. So we watched the film and after a while he reached over and put his hand on my knee. I put my hand over his and we sat like that for the rest of the film.

Then, when we were sitting in the pub, we were looking up some other films the cast had been in and he pointed out one and said something like "Remember - we went to see that!"

I froze and said "No, I didn't see that with you. It must have been someone else." Now I knew he had dated during that time, but again it was just a reminder of things he had done with other women that he hadn't with me. I didn't cause a scene or get overtly upset, but I did withdraw again, because these things are making me upset and I don't know how to deal with my feelings. This time when I withdrew, he said "This isn't really working is it?"

I wasn't sure what he meant. I didn't think he meant he wanted to call off our R because of me triggering or having a few little hurt moments. So we had a long talk about a lot of things and, among other things, I said that the past has happened. neither of us can change it, and it will always be with us. Yes, sometimes I will remember and I will be upset. The last thing I need from him in those times is to withdraw from me. What I need from him when I am hurt and remember, is to draw closer, not further away, I need him to be there for me, not absent himself.

He considered why that seemed to be his natural response and came to the conclusion that when I am remembering what he did, and I am hurting, he thinks I will want to end it - so he is getting in there first, before I can. Sort of a pre-emptive thing so that I don't hurt him first. I told him that just because I am having a bad moment doesn't mean I want to call everything off. But that he can't expect me never to have any bad moments, or remember, or feel. I'm not yelling at him, I'm not abusing him - all I'm doing is retreating quietly into my hurt, till I get past it. And all I need from him at that time is a hug and maybe a reassurance. He said he is scared that I will reject him if he tries to reassure me as it is HE who has upset me. So I reminded him that after the circus comment, when he came back to me and put his hand on my knee, I didn't reject him.

I'm hoping that he has listened to me this time. Sometimes when I tell him my needs, if they differ from what he would need under the same circumstances, it's like he struggles to believe me that this is what I actually need. He is stubbornly sticking to treating me the way HE would want to be treated, instead of listening to what I need. I'm hoping the MC can help us with this.

There was also an element of self-loathing going on last night too. He said that he can't believe that I would actually want him to comfort me, after what he has done, because he's not sure he would have been able to do what I did (i.e. take him back) if the circumstances were reversed. He says he has no right to have his feelings taken into consideration because it is he who has caused all this.

On the whole it was a good night. We got a lot of stuff out in the open, we didn't argue, he opened up to me and we had some nice QT when we got home. But the withdrawal thing bothers me. I understand that it's pre-emptive, but I hate that he pulls away when I need him the most. I just hope he can get over that.


----------



## Refuse to be played

SomedayDig said:


> I've not been keeping up in the CWI section so I don't really know the details of your story RTBP. However, if bfree is suggesting the Kevin Jackson book, then he's given you great advice. It's helped me a ton - Dday was 3/6/2012 and even though it was very rough in the beginning, it's totally going the right way for us now.
> 
> And there are a few reasons. First - SHE was willing to do the work of the wayward spouse. SHE opened up everything to me be they email accounts for personal and professional, facebook, phone records/account log in...basically, if it had a password, she gave it to me. She also installed a GPS tracker on her phone - totally on her own - and gave me the log in so I could see her wherever she was. I used that for about 5 or 6 months. Haven't needed or asked for her to turn it on since.
> 
> Next - I had to get sh-t straight with myself. I had to work my own sh-t out cuz dealing with a wayward spouse isn't one of the easiest things to come to terms with. It's actually pretty crummy for obvious reasons. However, if both spouses are truly willing to work at it...and I mean BOTH spouses...then hard work with a good MC and each having their own IC, then you can work through an affair.
> 
> Kevin Jackson's book is a good read for several reasons. First, it's written by a guy who's wife cheated on him. He gets it. He's been there and totally understands how we feel. The language may be a tad harsh. Well, who f'ng cares. An affair is pretty damn harsh. It will help you with things from dealing with mind movies to eating properly and exercising. It's also an easy read and since it's in e-book/pdf formatted, well you can leave it on your desktop and refer to it any time you need.


My W has shown remorse and tremendous guilt. She has complied with all demands so far and genuinely seems to want to R. I just downloaded Survive Her Affair to my kindle.


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## Refuse to be played

Brokenshadow said:


> Open thread, so I guess I'll post here. Had a bit of a blow up with the wife last night. We're trying to R, and in MC. She's been very remorseful, forth coming with information. If she does happen to work late, I can call her desk to make sure she's there, or she'll send me a pic of the time clock. In other words, she's trying. I've felt very angry since I found out about her PA, and more than a little resentful This has come out in little ways, such as comments, or sometimes heated discussions. The issue isn't that she expects me to move on right away, but that, to use her words, she's still on the ground floor with me. She feels that I have this hatred for her, and aren't recognizing how sorry she is, or how much pain she's in. I admit, I have wanted to see that she hurts. This pain is with me all the time, and I want to know I'm not the only one feeling it.
> 
> Reading RTBP's updates lately, I have a lot of respect for him trying to support his wife right now. But when I read about what he's doing, some small part of me thinks I could never do the same. Since, at this time, I'm still willing to try to reconcile, what can I do to start to show her I appreciate her actions? How did everyone here who was betrayed find the strength to be sympathetic to their betrayers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its a very hard balancing game. Dealing with your pain and resentments while at the same time trying to be sympathetic to a WS. Hopefully I'm able to keep it up, but I've been told I have yet to truly hit the anger stage. I destroyed our living room on Dday so I don't know how much more angry I can be. But I'm trying.


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## soulpotato

Robsia, I think you handled those moments really well. It sounds like both you and BigMac are really trying. I can relate to his fear of reaching out when things get tense, even though reaching out is exactly what is necessary.


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## 2yearsago

I truthfully don't know if I can get past it. Even though I know I am responsible for my own feelings sometimes I think of the hurt I felt when she continued the affair after I found out. I was truly crushed when that happened. She didn't give a s**t. Sometimes in reflection I ask myself.....do I really want to try with someone that can do that? I honestly don't know. It sucks. I know I'll be fine in whatever I choose - I can make myself happy. I just hate the thought of tossing away 20 years and breaking up my family.


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## Acabado

Refuse to be played said:


> Its a very hard balancing game. Dealing with your pain and resentments while at the same time trying to be sympathetic to a WS. Hopefully I'm able to keep it up, but I've been told I have yet to truly hit the anger stage. I destroyed our living room on Dday so I don't know how much more angry I can be. But I'm trying.


It's not the anger phase. It was simply releasing what you have been stuffing since you started getting clues once the truth finnaly came out.
Trust me, anger phase is a different animal. Hope your wife get educated on infidelity and recovery on her own (already told you she must be proactive seeking advice, slip it until you see she's on target) and can see this as such, a phase, and see the pain beyond the anger and be patient and empathetic enough to ride the rollercoaster by your side.
I usualy advice fresh BSs in reconciliation to not borrow trouble but warning you about the anger is a must. It will come.


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## soulpotato

Had a good conversation with GF this morning. She didn't say a word to me yesterday, so she called me to chat for a bit. She said, "I know that last time I didn't talk to you for 48 hours that you got upset about that, so since it has been more than 24, I thought I'd call you instead of assuming you knew I was studying and that that was why I hadn't talked to you." I praised her for realizing that and then going on to make the call.

We're going to go over this book I've been reading as soon as her test is over. It's called Our Love Is Too Good To Feel So Bad (Mira Kirshenbaum) and it seems to have a lot of really useful stuff in it. Ways to figure out if certain "love killers" are present in relationships, as well as how to address them (plus do's and don't's, which people like us really need). 

I was talking about how a stumbling block for us is when one of us feels something and the other tries to "logic" it. I told her that instead of doing that, we need to accept and address that how one person feels is her REALITY, regardless of whether the other understands it or thinks it is "reasonable". That it doesn't matter how we want to measure it or dissect it - THAT feeling/reality needs to be addressed. A statement of intention can be made, but after that... What is it the book called it? Reality wars, yeah. We need to not get caught up in reality wars. 

Then our emotional disparity came up, and GF started talking about how I need so much more than normal people do, and I was like, "HOLD UP. I feel bad when you start talking like this. Isn't the whole point of working on things so that we can meet on some middle ground, since neither one of us is really "normal"? Sure we could find people who were closer to our levels of normal, but they'd be other people, wouldn't they? And didn't we agree that we were working on this because we didn't want to be with other people? That we wanted each other because there's no replacement for that? So what if we have to work harder for that? It's not enough just to have some random person who gets our normal and therefore requires less effort, RIGHT?" And she agreed with me. Every once in a great while, GF will tell me that there's no one like me for her, nobody who ticks off all the boxes I do for her. So stuff isn't perfect. So sometimes it's really hard and it sucks. But I told her I'm willing to work towards what she needs and be patient while she works towards fulfilling my needs. It doesn't have to be total. Just enough to let this work and balance out.

I want to hold onto our history, our future, our "us".


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## SomedayDig

Refuse to be played said:


> My W has shown remorse and tremendous guilt. She has complied with all demands so far and genuinely seems to want to R. I just downloaded Survive Her Affair to my kindle.


Then consider yourself one of the lucky ones, man cuz there are literally hundreds of stories in the pages of TAM where the wayward spouse barely does anything and the betrayed does it all. Then they wonder why after years of "reconciliation" that there is none.

Now, my wife, Regret214 did a lot of work. Like your wife she showed remorse and felt extremely guilty. However, I still endured almost 6 months of trickle truth...something that no one should ever have to deal with. It was gut wrenching and I literally was two steps from leaving everything behind.

We worked through it. Read the book. I hope it works for you and you can get something from it. I know Russell got a lot out of it. I know I have. Still look at it now and then, too.


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## Robsia

soulpotato said:


> Had a good conversation with GF this morning. She didn't say a word to me yesterday, so she called me to chat for a bit. She said, "I know that last time I didn't talk to you for 48 hours that you got upset about that, so since it has been more than 24, I thought I'd call you instead of assuming you knew I was studying and that that was why I hadn't talked to you." I praised her for realizing that and then going on to make the call.
> 
> We're going to go over this book I've been reading as soon as her test is over. It's called Our Love Is Too Good To Feel So Bad (Mira Kirshenbaum) and it seems to have a lot of really useful stuff in it. Ways to figure out if certain "love killers" are present in relationships, as well as how to address them (plus do's and don't's, which people like us really need).
> 
> I was talking about how a stumbling block for us is when one of us feels something and the other tries to "logic" it. I told her that instead of doing that, we need to accept and address that how one person feels is her REALITY, regardless of whether the other understands it or thinks it is "reasonable". That it doesn't matter how we want to measure it or dissect it - THAT feeling/reality needs to be addressed. A statement of intention can be made, but after that... What is it the book called it? Reality wars, yeah. We need to not get caught up in reality wars.
> 
> Then our emotional disparity came up, and GF started talking about how I need so much more than normal people do, and I was like, "HOLD UP. I feel bad when you start talking like this. Isn't the whole point of working on things so that we can meet on some middle ground, since neither one of us is really "normal"? Sure we could find people who were closer to our levels of normal, but they'd be other people, wouldn't they? And didn't we agree that we were working on this because we didn't want to be with other people? That we wanted each other because there's no replacement for that? So what if we have to work harder for that? It's not enough just to have some random person who gets our normal and therefore requires less effort, RIGHT?" And she agreed with me. Every once in a great while, GF will tell me that there's no one like me for her, nobody who ticks off all the boxes I do for her. So stuff isn't perfect. So sometimes it's really hard and it sucks. But I told her I'm willing to work towards what she needs and be patient while she works towards fulfilling my needs. It doesn't have to be total. Just enough to let this work and balance out.
> 
> I want to hold onto our history, our future, our "us".


It's good that she contacted you 

I understand about being with someone who is more high maintenance than a 'normal' person. I think both BigMac and I are, and you are right - we have made the choice to stay with each other rather than split and find someone who might be 'easier' because we love each other. But that means accepting your partner's higher-maintenance emotional needs.

However, it doesn't mean putting up with emotional or verbal abuse! But it might mean helping a partner find a way to deal with those thoughts and feelings that could lead to abusive behaviours, and help to calm them down.


----------



## bfree

Brokenshadow said:


> Open thread, so I guess I'll post here. Had a bit of a blow up with the wife last night. We're trying to R, and in MC. She's been very remorseful, forth coming with information. If she does happen to work late, I can call her desk to make sure she's there, or she'll send me a pic of the time clock. In other words, she's trying. I've felt very angry since I found out about her PA, and more than a little resentful This has come out in little ways, such as comments, or sometimes heated discussions. The issue isn't that she expects me to move on right away, but that, to use her words, she's still on the ground floor with me. She feels that I have this hatred for her, and aren't recognizing how sorry she is, or how much pain she's in. I admit, I have wanted to see that she hurts. This pain is with me all the time, and I want to know I'm not the only one feeling it.
> 
> Reading RTBP's updates lately, I have a lot of respect for him trying to support his wife right now. But when I read about what he's doing, some small part of me thinks I could never do the same. Since, at this time, I'm still willing to try to reconcile, what can I do to start to show her I appreciate her actions? How did everyone here who was betrayed find the strength to be sympathetic to their betrayers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are those WS that really don't feel that badly about hurting their spouses. Sure they don't like the fact that they are now painted with the scarlet A or that they might lose their lifestyle. But they just don't have much empathy for the person they betrayed. There are other WS that are truly disgusted by their actions. They really see the person that cheated as someone that isn't them. A different man or woman altogether and they just truly can't understand how they did what they did. These WS are the ones that honestly and truly hurt when they're spouses hurt. They feel such extreme guilt that it literally makes them physically sick. These are the WS that soon become fWS and they are the ones that will do whatever it takes to successfully earn back trust and R their relationships. If your wife is one of these fWS then just keep in mind that they really do feel the pain that you do. Its not the same form of pain. You feel the pain of betrayal and they feel the pain of guilt. But guilt is a powerful emotion and those that experience mind numbing intense guilt will tell you its like dying. In fact, many fWS do honestly think about suicide because they feel so bad and almost can't bear the thought of the pain they discovered they were capable of inflicting. So yes you hurt a lot and will hurt for quite a while. But she hurts too and her salvation completely depends on how well and completely you heal. She honestly wants you to recover and probably feels powerless and helpless in the face of so much intense pain. She is in a tough position and her only hope is that you are strong enough to eventually get past this betrayal. As long as you keep all this in mind you will find that as you heal you will come to see her pain as almost equal to your own. That is the secret behind successfully reconciling after infidelity. That although one made the destructive choice, both suffer for it and both can support each other as healing takes place.


----------



## bfree

Robsia, I think you handled yourself remarkably well. I imagine its tough for Mac because while he wants to be totally open and honest with you he hesitates knowing that some things he says will probably hurt. I think if I were in your shoes I would rather have totally if albeit brutal honesty at times than to have things fester in the dark. Gad you had a good day all things considered.


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## Brokenshadow

Refuse to be played said:


> Its a very hard balancing game. Dealing with your pain and resentments while at the same time trying to be sympathetic to a WS. Hopefully I'm able to keep it up, but I've been told I have yet to truly hit the anger stage. I destroyed our living room on Dday so I don't know how much more angry I can be. But I'm trying.


Sympathy...that's a struggle. Our situations are very different, but I have respect for what you're doing. You're putting yourself out there again for her which cannot be easy. My dday 2 was may 10. Not sure if I'm in what could be termed the anger stage, but fwiw, the rage is omnipresent. When I found out, I exploded too. I still feel that, now and again, but more often than not, it's a slow constant burn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

2yearsago said:


> I truthfully don't know if I can get past it. Even though I know I am responsible for my own feelings sometimes I think of the hurt I felt when she continued the affair after I found out. I was truly crushed when that happened. She didn't give a s**t. Sometimes in reflection I ask myself.....do I really want to try with someone that can do that? I honestly don't know. It sucks. I know I'll be fine in whatever I choose - I can make myself happy. I just hate the thought of tossing away 20 years and breaking up my family.


If she is truly remorseful you will know and reconciliation may be possible. But she has to be willing and able to do the tough work required to heal the relationship. Its always rocky in the beginning but if there is solid progress and both spouses want it to work, it can.


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## bfree

soulpotato said:


> Had a good conversation with GF this morning. She didn't say a word to me yesterday, so she called me to chat for a bit. She said, "I know that last time I didn't talk to you for 48 hours that you got upset about that, so since it has been more than 24, I thought I'd call you instead of assuming you knew I was studying and that that was why I hadn't talked to you." I praised her for realizing that and then going on to make the call.
> 
> We're going to go over this book I've been reading as soon as her test is over. It's called Our Love Is Too Good To Feel So Bad (Mira Kirshenbaum) and it seems to have a lot of really useful stuff in it. Ways to figure out if certain "love killers" are present in relationships, as well as how to address them (plus do's and don't's, which people like us really need).
> 
> I was talking about how a stumbling block for us is when one of us feels something and the other tries to "logic" it. I told her that instead of doing that, we need to accept and address that how one person feels is her REALITY, regardless of whether the other understands it or thinks it is "reasonable". That it doesn't matter how we want to measure it or dissect it - THAT feeling/reality needs to be addressed. A statement of intention can be made, but after that... What is it the book called it? Reality wars, yeah. We need to not get caught up in reality wars.
> 
> Then our emotional disparity came up, and GF started talking about how I need so much more than normal people do, and I was like, "HOLD UP. I feel bad when you start talking like this. Isn't the whole point of working on things so that we can meet on some middle ground, since neither one of us is really "normal"? Sure we could find people who were closer to our levels of normal, but they'd be other people, wouldn't they? And didn't we agree that we were working on this because we didn't want to be with other people? That we wanted each other because there's no replacement for that? So what if we have to work harder for that? It's not enough just to have some random person who gets our normal and therefore requires less effort, RIGHT?" And she agreed with me. Every once in a great while, GF will tell me that there's no one like me for her, nobody who ticks off all the boxes I do for her. So stuff isn't perfect. So sometimes it's really hard and it sucks. But I told her I'm willing to work towards what she needs and be patient while she works towards fulfilling my needs. It doesn't have to be total. Just enough to let this work and balance out.
> 
> I want to hold onto our history, our future, our "us".


Its good that she called and you both could talk. I don't really understand or accept this concept of "normal." Everyone has different levels of needs and different needs altogether. There is no right or wrong. Its just what is. For instance, in the book His needs Her Needs they talk about different needs of each person. There is an exercise where you list your top 5 needs and your partner lists their top 5 needs. Well as you might imagine "most normal" men list sexual fulfillment as either the top need or at least one of the top two. Not me. Even though I am extremely HD it was still in my top 5 but not 1st or 2nd. So I guess I'm not "normal." Good. I hate conformity.


----------



## Robsia

bfree said:


> There are those WS that really don't feel that badly about hurting their spouses. Sure they don't like the fact that they are now painted with the scarlet A or that they might lose their lifestyle. But they just don't have much empathy for the person they betrayed. There are other WS that are truly disgusted by their actions. They really see the person that cheated as someone that isn't them. A different man or woman altogether and they just truly can't understand how they did what they did. These WS are the ones that honestly and truly hurt when they're spouses hurt. They feel such extreme guilt that it literally makes them physically sick. These are the WS that soon become fWS and they are the ones that will do whatever it takes to successfully earn back trust and R their relationships. If your wife is one of these fWS then just keep in mind that they really do feel the pain that you do. Its not the same form of pain. You feel the pain of betrayal and they feel the pain of guilt. But guilt is a powerful emotion and those that experience mind numbing intense guilt will tell you its like dying. In fact, many fWS do honestly think about suicide because they feel so bad and almost can't bear the thought of the pain they discovered they were capable of inflicting. So yes you hurt a lot and will hurt for quite a while. But she hurts too and her salvation completely depends on how well and completely you heal. She honestly wants you to recover and probably feels powerless and helpless in the face of so much intense pain. She is in a tough position and her only hope is that you are strong enough to eventually get past this betrayal. As long as you keep all this in mind you will find that as you heal you will come to see her pain as almost equal to your own. That is the secret behind successfully reconciling after infidelity. That although one made the destructive choice, both suffer for it and both can support each other as healing takes place.


This is one of the things we talked about last night, that BigMac, as a WH, feels pain over what he did to me, and to us. And that, as his wife, I want to try to help him through that. I want him to feel comfortable talking to me about what he feels.

That was when he said he didn't feel he had the right to have his feelings taken into consideration, as it was he who had caused all of this.


----------



## Brokenshadow

bfree said:


> There are those WS that really don't feel that badly about hurting their spouses. Sure they don't like the fact that they are now painted with the scarlet A or that they might lose their lifestyle. But they just don't have much empathy for the person they betrayed. There are other WS that are truly disgusted by their actions. They really see the person that cheated as someone that isn't them. A different man or woman altogether and they just truly can't understand how they did what they did. These WS are the ones that honestly and truly hurt when they're spouses hurt. They feel such extreme guilt that it literally makes them physically sick. These are the WS that soon become fWS and they are the ones that will do whatever it takes to successfully earn back trust and R their relationships. If your wife is one of these fWS then just keep in mind that they really do feel the pain that you do. Its not the same form of pain. You feel the pain of betrayal and they feel the pain of guilt. But guilt is a powerful emotion and those that experience mind numbing intense guilt will tell you its like dying. In fact, many fWS do honestly think about suicide because they feel so bad and almost can't bear the thought of the pain they discovered they were capable of inflicting. So yes you hurt a lot and will hurt for quite a while. But she hurts too and her salvation completely depends on how well and completely you heal. She honestly wants you to recover and probably feels powerless and helpless in the face of so much intense pain. She is in a tough position and her only hope is that you are strong enough to eventually get past this betrayal. As long as you keep all this in mind you will find that as you heal you will come to see her pain as almost equal to your own. That is the secret behind successfully reconciling after infidelity. That although one made the destructive choice, both suffer for it and both can support each other as healing takes place.


Beautifully said, and I thank you for it. She's said that she does feel powerless in the wake of so much raw emotion. That she sees the seething anger in me. She's told me that she should be the one I'm angry at, and she is, in part. But when this blinding rage burns white hot, I cannot bring myself to let it break upon her. She was my heart, my soul for so many years. 

I've told her that, in my mind,.she was laughing at me behind my back during this affair. That any and all that knew thought me a joke. She said it wasn't like that, that she was thinking only of herself, and not the consequences, like in the days of her addiction. I asked her what was in her mind that day she came home to me after meeting him in a hotel room. Guilt, remorse, and the ultimate feeling of a mistake she wished she could take back. 

Respect is something earned, rarely given. It's a sentiment you grant to others, so is yours to discard. The darkest parts of me tell me they didn't respect me, laughed at me, thought me a joke. Now I have to trust her when she says she did, and does respect me. I felt powerless when I found out what happened, and perhaps still feel that way. The only thing on my mind, for a while now, is that while she, and the others, can decide to respect me or not, I can take the actions, make the choices, that will ensure their fear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> It's good that she contacted you
> 
> I understand about being with someone who is more high maintenance than a 'normal' person. I think both BigMac and I are, and you are right - we have made the choice to stay with each other rather than split and find someone who might be 'easier' because we love each other. But that means accepting your partner's higher-maintenance emotional needs.
> 
> However, it doesn't mean putting up with emotional or verbal abuse! But it might mean helping a partner find a way to deal with those thoughts and feelings that could lead to abusive behaviours, and help to calm them down.


She seems to be rallying to make the effort and will hopefully be able to keep going with that. 

Yes, exactly. That is part of what both I and the therapist have tried to convey to GF. My high-maintenance emotional needs are not going to go away. But she will not be able to meet them all, or meet them all the time, and I get that. Just many of them a decent amount of the time would do.

Very positive, Robsia.  I agree, helping one's spouse/partner is important. You're a team, after all! And nobody can do it alone. 

Yes, abuse needs to be dealt with and is unacceptable.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Its good that she called and you both could talk. I don't really understand or accept this concept of "normal." Everyone has different levels of needs and different needs altogether. There is no right or wrong. Its just what is. For instance, in the book His needs Her Needs they talk about different needs of each person. There is an exercise where you list your top 5 needs and your partner lists their top 5 needs. Well as you might imagine "most normal" men list sexual fulfillment as either the top need or at least one of the top two. Not me. Even though I am extremely HD it was still in my top 5 but not 1st or 2nd. So I guess I'm not "normal." Good. I hate conformity.


Well, "normal" has its uses, I suppose. You know how the going standard of what is considered typical, or what the majority experiences, is often used as a marker - for everything. You are right that we all have different needs and levels of needs. In a perfect world, that concept of no right or wrong for being different would prevail. But this has been a bit of a battleground over the years.

I think we did something similar to the top 5 needs quiz in your book with my previous therapist. We shared 3 of the 5, but in a different order. I've resolved to meet all of GF's needs that I can, to really listen to what she's asking of me and do my best to provide it. I've been doing it, for the most part.

I don't like conformity, either, and neither does GF, but "normal" seems to become such a big deal when you can't agree on things!


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> There are those WS that really don't feel that badly about hurting their spouses. Sure they don't like the fact that they are now painted with the scarlet A or that they might lose their lifestyle. But they just don't have much empathy for the person they betrayed. There are other WS that are truly disgusted by their actions. They really see the person that cheated as someone that isn't them. A different man or woman altogether and they just truly can't understand how they did what they did. These WS are the ones that honestly and truly hurt when they're spouses hurt. They feel such extreme guilt that it literally makes them physically sick. These are the WS that soon become fWS and they are the ones that will do whatever it takes to successfully earn back trust and R their relationships. If your wife is one of these fWS then just keep in mind that they really do feel the pain that you do. Its not the same form of pain. You feel the pain of betrayal and they feel the pain of guilt. But guilt is a powerful emotion and those that experience mind numbing intense guilt will tell you its like dying. In fact, many fWS do honestly think about suicide because they feel so bad and almost can't bear the thought of the pain they discovered they were capable of inflicting. So yes you hurt a lot and will hurt for quite a while. But she hurts too and her salvation completely depends on how well and completely you heal. She honestly wants you to recover and probably feels powerless and helpless in the face of so much intense pain. She is in a tough position and her only hope is that you are strong enough to eventually get past this betrayal. As long as you keep all this in mind you will find that as you heal you will come to see her pain as almost equal to your own. That is the secret behind successfully reconciling after infidelity. That although one made the destructive choice, both suffer for it and both can support each other as healing takes place.


Good stuff,you're on fire today bfree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> Well, "normal" has its uses, I suppose. You know how the going standard of what is considered typical, or what the majority experiences, is often used as a marker - for everything. You are right that we all have different needs and levels of needs. In a perfect world, that concept of no right or wrong for being different would prevail. But this has been a bit of a battleground over the years.
> 
> I think we did something similar to the top 5 needs quiz in your book with my previous therapist. We shared 3 of the 5, but in a different order. I've resolved to meet all of GF's needs that I can, to really listen to what she's asking of me and do my best to provide it. I've been doing it, for the most part.
> 
> I don't like conformity, either, and neither does GF, but "normal" seems to become such a big deal when you can't agree on things!


Well, then think of normal as in what is normal for you and for her. You don't and shouldn't have to be like anyone else. And yes maybe you are more needy in certain ways but I'm sure that there are aspects of "you" that would not exist in anyone else. Is it a trade off? Yes, but its well worth it and something that should be accepted not resisted. My wife is a wonderful woman. And of course I'm a heck of a guy. But I dare say that not everyone would put up with her idiosyncrasies and I'm sure I'm not the easiest person to get along with. But while we acknowledge each other's weaknesses we minimize them in favor of recognizing the wonderful qualities that we can and do embrace.


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Good stuff,you're on fire today bfree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, the vision in my eye is almost all the way back. I can see the keyboard and screen now. lol


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## CantSitStill

Gosh you've been thru hell these past couple of weeks Bfree, sorry you're still not feeling well. I gotta keep on prayin for ya 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Allowing your loved one to be themselves is huge in my eyes. I kept telling calvin that he didn't love me for me but for who he wants me to be. I struggle with needing the approval from everyone in my life...we both are now aware and have adjusted. He now loves some of those things that used to annoy him. I also dowe should have went to MC a long time ago listen to him better than I used to and work on my own weaknesses. It doesn't happen over night but him seeing me try and me seeing him try is all that matters because we love eachother and both want to please eachother. Damn
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Somehow while typing that my last sentence...damn we should have went to MC a long time ago landed up in the middle of what I was writing...oops
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Gosh you've been thru hell these past couple of weeks Bfree, sorry you're still not feeling well. I gotta keep on prayin for ya
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No worries. I'm good. You gotta roll with the punches.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> No worries. I'm good. You gotta roll with the punches.


Kinda like the Hawks punched the hell out..........errrr,nevermind.
Hope you get well soon bfree. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Allowing your loved one to be themselves is huge in my eyes. I kept telling calvin that he didn't love me for me but for who he wants me to be. I struggle with needing the approval from everyone in my life...we both are now aware and have adjusted. He now loves some of those things that used to annoy him. I also dowe should have went to MC a long time ago listen to him better than I used to and work on my own weaknesses. It doesn't happen over night but him seeing me try and me seeing him try is all that matters because we love eachother and both want to please eachother. Damn
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's huge to me, too.  

When we were fighting earlier in the week, GF accused me of loving only an idealized image of her. I responded by saying I had lived with someone who was hard to live with, disrespectful, hurtful, avoidant, and rageful, but also wonderful when she got past herself & needing to blame others. (My point was - hardly an idealized image.) I believe that was one of the things I said that she found nigh unforgivable. I don't think she can understand how I can love her and yet think, feel, or say anything negative about/to her.  In my eyes, she's so much more than the negative stuff. 

We also should have gone to therapy together a long time ago.


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## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Well, then think of normal as in what is normal for you and for her. You don't and shouldn't have to be like anyone else. And yes maybe you are more needy in certain ways but I'm sure that there are aspects of "you" that would not exist in anyone else. Is it a trade off? Yes, but its well worth it and something that should be accepted not resisted. My wife is a wonderful woman. And of course I'm a heck of a guy. But I dare say that not everyone would put up with her idiosyncrasies and I'm sure I'm not the easiest person to get along with. But while we acknowledge each other's weaknesses we minimize them in favor of recognizing the wonderful qualities that we can and do embrace.


Bfree, this is totally how I view things. There needs to be that acceptance, flexibility, willingness, and emphasis of the positive/minimization of the negative for the love to survive and the relationship to be successful.


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## Refuse to be played

Post Dday sex question:

I know hysterical bonding is common but is the opposite? I'm having an difficult time being intimate with my WW. We stayed out at a hotel last night after our dinner date and I just could not get aroused for her even after she gave me oral. She has been trying through out the day when we are alone but gets limited results (I get semi-hard at most). But before I came back home I had no problem, hell porn was my best friend. Now she is starting to get all sad and discouraged again. Its not like I'm doing this on purpose I don't know what he hell is wrong with me. Any other BS go through this and is there something I can do to get over it?


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## Jasel

Refuse to be played said:


> Post Dday sex question:
> 
> I know hysterical bonding is common but is the opposite? I'm having an difficult time being intimate with my WW. We stayed out at a hotel last night after our dinner date and I just could not get aroused for her even after she gave me oral. She has been trying through out the day when we are alone but gets limited results (I get semi-hard at most). But before I came back home I had no problem, hell porn was my best friend. Now she is starting to get all sad and discouraged again. Its not like I'm doing this on purpose I don't know what he hell is wrong with me. Any other BS go through this and is there something I can do to get over it?


I don't think you should feel the need to rush into anything if you're not ready for it. Not everyone goes into hysterical bonding sessions after going through DDay.


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## Acabado

Get rid of any pressure. On your pace man. She's going to start realizing that patience is key in this.
It proves men are not just dogs, how emotional attachment plays a huge role. It's not you are not atracted to her or that she's not desiderable at all. It's the f'ing pain.
If you weren't reconciling instead of getting drunk in the hotel room you likely were doing the same in a bar and trying to get laid with the first handy skirt and I can garantee you you wouldn't have any issues.

It shall pass. No doubt.
Let her in.


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## Mr Blunt

> Brokenshadow
> Open thread, so I guess I'll post here. Had a bit of a blow up with the wife last night. We're trying to R, and in MC. She's been very remorseful, forth coming with information. If she does happen to work late, I can call her desk to make sure she's there, or she'll send me a pic of the time clock. In other words, she's trying. I've felt very angry since I found out about her PA, and more than a little resentful This has come out in little ways, such as comments, or sometimes heated discussions. The issue isn't that she expects me to move on right away, but that, to use her words, she's still on the ground floor with me. She feels that I have this hatred for her, and aren't recognizing how sorry she is, or how much pain she's in. I admit, I have wanted to see that she hurts. This pain is with me all the time, and I want to know I'm not the only one feeling it.
> 
> Reading RTBP's updates lately, I have a lot of respect for him trying to support his wife right now. But when I read about what he's doing, some small part of me thinks I could never do the same. Since, at this time, I'm still willing to try to reconcile, what can I do to start to show her I appreciate her actions? How did everyone here who was betrayed find the strength to be sympathetic to their betrayers?





*



what can I do to start to show her I appreciate her actions?

Click to expand...

*Hold her hand----hug her Words are not necessary sometimes and it is better to just hold her hand or hug her in silence.


*



How did everyone here who was betrayed find the strength to be sympathetic to their betrayers?

Click to expand...

*
*I had to build myself up first*. At first I could only think of my hurt because I was weakened. I was fortunate, I had family and lots of help with my faith. My family reassured me that I was valuable and worthy. *My faith required me to clean up my own self and assured me that I would be OK and rewarded. I did that and believed that and it happened*.


Now that I was stronger I could usually look past the hurt and see her damage and I had compassion and took actions to help her. *One thing that I did was to never bring up her self destructive actions*. For a true remorseful person bringing up their actions that they did to damage their personhood and self esteem can really set them back. A true remorseful person will have to fight their own thoughts of their destructive actions and added mentions can sometimes be too much for them.


*Another action would be to get as close to normal as possible. *The remorseful partner’s loves to see you in a somewhat normal state and laughter can do wonders. The WS is pained when they see pain in your face because they always think that they are the ones that put that pain there. They did put some of that pain there but they get relief when they see that you are healing.


If you are strong enough and it is true then you can tell your spouse that you both have been selfish in your life and that you are convinced that you both can receive grace from a loving God that believes in second chances. Now is another good time for a hug!


*You can not fake the above actions so that is why I mention often that you have to build yourself up* and be strong enough to handle your pain and then help them with their pain. Infidelity is a very powerful destroyer but it can also be used to change you for the better. *You will be faced with he darkest of the human dark side and the brightest of the human spirit and your choices can make a difference; either positive or negative.

BUILD YOURSELF UP BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT!!!*


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## Brokenshadow

Mr Blunt said:


> Hold her hand----hug her Words are not necessary sometimes and it is better to just hold her hand or hug her in silence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I had to build myself up first*. At first I could only think of my hurt because I was weakened. I was fortunate, I had family and lots of help with my faith. My family reassured me that I was valuable and worthy. *My faith required me to clean up my own self and assured me that I would be OK and rewarded. I did that and believed that and it happened*.
> 
> 
> Now that I was stronger I could usually look past the hurt and see her damage and I had compassion and took actions to help her. *One thing that I did was to never bring up her self destructive actions*. For a true remorseful person bringing up their actions that they did to damage their personhood and self esteem can really set them back. A true remorseful person will have to fight their own thoughts of their destructive actions and added mentions can sometimes be too much for them.
> 
> 
> *Another action would be to get as close to normal as possible. *The remorseful partner’s loves to see you in a somewhat normal state and laughter can do wonders. The WS is pained when they see pain in your face because they always think that they are the ones that put that pain there. They did put some of that pain there but they get relief when they see that you are healing.
> 
> 
> If you are strong enough and it is true then you can tell your spouse that you both have been selfish in your life and that you are convinced that you both can receive grace from a loving God that believes in second chances. Now is another good time for a hug!
> 
> 
> *You can not fake the above actions so that is why I mention often that you have to build yourself up* and be strong enough to handle your pain and then help them with their pain. Infidelity is a very powerful destroyer but it can also be used to change you for the better. *You will be faced with he darkest of the human dark side and the brightest of the human spirit and your choices can make a difference; either positive or negative.
> 
> BUILD YOURSELF UP BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT!!!*


*

I appreciate your advice. I will heed some of it, but in part you advise not bringing up her actions, and trying to get back to normal asap. I'm sorry, but no. That feels too much like rug sweeping. Her selfish choices brought us both pain, not mine. God doesn't live in my heart anymore.
Posted via Mobile Device*


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## bfree

calvin said:


> Kinda like the Hawks punched the hell out..........errrr,nevermind.
> Hope you get well soon bfree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just saw this and had to post it. That Chicago organization is classy.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> Just saw this and had to post it. That Chicago organization is classy.


Thanks man,I like the way the victory was shared with everyone.
I bet the Bruins would do the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl

Refuse to be played said:


> Post Dday sex question:
> 
> I know hysterical bonding is common but is the opposite? ... Any other BS go through this and is there something I can do to get over it?


Shirley Glass in her book Not Just Friends says that people react in a variety of ways, even feeling "dead sexually." I wasn't quite there, but close. She recommends other kinds of touch - back rubs, foot massages - to begin to "break the ice," which is really a good way to look at it, because with all the hurt and anger that we feel, there can be a huge wall of "ice" built up that needs to thaw first. 

Some people have said R has some "dating" qualities to it. If you're not an 18 year old male with one thing on his mind, you might think of dating as a process of getting to know someone and possibly even, ideally, feeling close to them before the hopping in the sack part.

It may be some time before you start to feel close to her - be honest with her about that, and be patient with yourself.


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## cpacan

Brokenshadow said:


> I appreciate your advice. I will heed some of it, but in part you advise not bringing up her actions, and trying to get back to normal asap. I'm sorry, but no. That feels too much like rug sweeping. Her selfish choices brought us both pain, not mine. God doesn't live in my heart anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with you on this - but it needs to be balanced if you want to reconcile. On one hand, you need to feel reassured that she owns her actions, on the other hand, you don't wanna rub her face in it and punish her for ever.

So once you KNOW that she understands the magnitude of the betrayal and that she owns it, you'll be better off starting to let go. It's a win-win. It isn't easy though, I know, been there, doing that. Practice.

Maybe that's what Mr.Blunt meant, I won't speak for him though.


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## hopefulgirl

Up in the middle of the night with a headache. 

Yesterday I spoke with WS about my dream the night before.

In my dream, I was hitting him, telling him I didn't believe that his friend really brought up in conversation an error in his child support deduction on his paycheck and that he said he needed to call his attorney, and that my WS jokingly said "what's his name, so if I ever need one I'll know not to use him." 

Well, he said this was all true. He swore on his love for me. He said he really seized on the opportunity of the guy bringing up the child support thing and the mention of his attorney to get the name. And his friend doesn't know he went to see him. He did this when things were at a really low point between us. His friend knows nothing about anything - he wouldn't want him to know.

He asked me if I wanted to hit him. I said no. 

He said he felt bad that I don't believe things I tell him, but he said he only has himself to blame for that.

So things are better. I still wish he'd agree to get into MC because these discussions are difficult when we do them on our own. I realize that I'm not always completely open (like immediately stating the fact that I didn't believe him) because I'm not always sure I should say in the moment "my bs detector is going off!" because I don't want to tear down the progress that we're making. I'm filtering because I want the positive interactions to outnumber the negative, and in my traumatized state, I still have a lot of paranoid stuff going through my head.


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## calvin

hopefulgirl said:


> Up in the middle of the night with a headache.
> 
> Yesterday I spoke with WS about my dream the night before.
> 
> In my dream, I was hitting him, telling him I didn't believe that his friend really brought up in conversation an error in his child support deduction on his paycheck and that he said he needed to call his attorney, and that my WS jokingly said "what's his name, so if I ever need one I'll know not to use him."
> 
> Well, he said this was all true. He swore on his love for me. He said he really seized on the opportunity of the guy bringing up the child support thing and the mention of his attorney to get the name. And his friend doesn't know he went to see him. He did this when things were at a really low point between us. His friend knows nothing about anything - he wouldn't want him to know.
> 
> He asked me if I wanted to hit him. I said no.
> 
> He said he felt bad that I don't believe things I tell him, but he said he only has himself to blame for that.
> 
> So things are better. I still wish he'd agree to get into MC because these discussions are difficult when we do them on our own. I realize that I'm not always completely open (like immediately stating the fact that I didn't believe him) because I'm not always sure I should say in the moment "my bs detector is going off!" because I don't want to tear down the progress that we're making. I'm filtering because I want the positive interactions to outnumber the negative, and in my traumatized state, I still have a lot of paranoid stuff going through my head.


hg,I wish he would get into MC with you,CSS was always afraid of going,I think if she would
Have went years ago like I asked a lot of pain could have been avoided for us both.
I hope you can convince him to go,MC to me is a requirement for any type of R.
Good to know you both are making progress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## broken30

EI said:


> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> P.S. I love you! <3


Very inspiring and hopeful words. But how many do overs should one get?


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## SomedayDig

broken30 said:


> Very inspiring and hopeful words. But how many do overs should one get?


One.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Brokenshadow*
> She's been very remorseful, forth coming with information. If she does happen to work late, I can call her desk to make sure she's there, or she'll send me a pic of the time clock. In other words, she's trying
> 
> She feels that I have this hatred for her, and aren't recognizing how sorry she is, or how much pain she's in. I admit, I have wanted to see that she hurts
> 
> 
> *By Mr. Blunt*
> A true remorseful person will have to fight their own thoughts of their destructive actions and added mentions can sometimes be too much for them.
> 
> 
> *By Brokenshadow*
> I will heed some of it, but in part you advise not bringing up her actions, and trying to get back to normal asap. I'm sorry, but no. That feels too much like rug sweeping


Brokenshadow, my reading of your posts tells me that she is NOT rug sweeping but as you have said "She's been very remorseful, forth coming with information"

A true remorseful person does not rug sweep but takes actions to help with R. That is the impression that I got from your posts about your wife.
You asked 
“what can I do to start to show her I appreciate her actions?”
*Not bringing up the painful self esteem killer of what she did will help her.*

Your wife thinks that you hate her and you admit that you want to see her hurt. Wanting to see her hurt may not be hatered.
*Do you hate her?*

If you do not hate her then I think that you building yourself up will help with you not wanting her to be hurt and even get you to the point that you do not want to bring up her betrayal because the subject will hurt her.


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## daisygirl 41

I had a dream too. But I won't share. It was rude!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

SomedayDig said:


> One.


Nailed it Dig. I think it is critical for any BS to make this clear at the onset of R. And as a BS, you need to KNOW this in your heart. That this is the one and only mulligan.

My wife knows that if it were to ever happen again, she would come home to changed locks and her stuff on the porch. There would be no second D day. Just moving day.


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## calvin

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Nailed it Dig. I think it is critical for any BS to make this clear at the onset of R. And as a BS, you need to KNOW this in your heart. That this is the one and only mulligan.
> 
> My wife knows that if it were to ever happen again, she would come home to changed locks and her stuff on the porch. There would be no second D day. Just moving day.


Yep,if it would have been me I would not expect another chance.
Funny thing is after all the hurt,if it happend again I would not have
a hard time at all of calling it quits.
I know it wont though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

And I think that's just it, Calvin. If it were to happen I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger because I would know I did everything I possibly could to enable the marriage to survive.

I would walk away with my head head high, knowing I did everything humanly possible. No regrets, no remorse. No wondering if I should give another chance. I would have my answer.


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## calvin

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> And I think that's just it, Calvin. If it were to happen I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger because I would know I did everything I possibly could to enable the marriage to survive.
> 
> I would walk away with my head head high, knowing I did everything humanly possible. No regrets, no remorse. No wondering if I should give another chance. I would have my answer.


Exactly bro and if they did it again after seeing the pain you went through?
Then they are not worth it.
It takes someone truely evil to do that again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Brokenshadow

Mr Blunt said:


> Brokenshadow, my reading of your posts tells me that she is NOT rug sweeping but as you have said "She's been very remorseful, forth coming with information"
> 
> A true remorseful person does not rug sweep but takes actions to help with R. That is the impression that I got from your posts about your wife.
> You asked
> “what can I do to start to show her I appreciate her actions?”
> *Not bringing up the painful self esteem killer of what she did will help her.*
> 
> Your wife thinks that you hate her and you admit that you want to see her hurt. Wanting to see her hurt may not be hatered.
> *Do you hate her?*
> 
> If you do not hate her then I think that you building yourself up will help with you not wanting her to be hurt and even get you to the point that you do not want to bring up her betrayal because the subject will hurt her.


Do I hate her? April 17 I would've given a simple answer to a simple question. I loved my wife then, deeply. In a way I've been unable to feel for anyone else. Do I hate the wife I had? Absolutely not. Do I hate the woman who betrayed me? With every fiber of my being. This betrayal took forethought. There are posts here of women in bad situations due to alcohol, drugs. She planned this. Discussed it. She knew that morning what she was doing. She knew when she drove to that hotel what she was doing. She knew what she had done when she came home to me. She spoon fed me lies when I begged for honesty. Such hateful, selfish lies dropping so easily from her lips. 

And now what? She feels bad? It was a mistake she wishes she could take back? Remorse is her penance for destroying my heart? Was she thinking remorse when she was laughing behind my back at h how clever she was to pull the wool over my eyes? When she gave herself to another man? She served me pain unimaginable on a plate, slamming it in front of me, with a side of lies, and said eat up. And now deserves my compassion and support because she regrets going to a hotel room like a paid for wh0re? Hate courses through my veins, while rage thunders in my ears. The soft voice of my heart pleading mercy, mercy. 

But the only thing that matters now is who is it I sleep next to at night? This R is about finding that out. If it's my wife, we have a chance. If my heart tells me it's not...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Nailed it Dig. I think it is critical for any BS to make this clear at the onset of R. And as a BS, you need to KNOW this in your heart. That this is the one and only mulligan.
> 
> My wife knows that if it were to ever happen again, she would come home to changed locks and her stuff on the porch. There would be no second D day. Just moving day.


That's exactly it, my friend. See, there's a bunch of those who would say to "alpha" or "man" up...reclaim your manhood or whateverthef-ck. Call it what ya want, I simply let Regret know that as much as I love her that if this ever happened again - 2 month or 20 years down the road - it's done. Period. No ifs ands or buts.

I didn't get a golden ratio or 180 her. I simply said - "You got ONE f-ckin shot. Don't mess up if you want this (meaning me)."


----------



## hopefulgirl

After a bad night with a killer headache, I look worse than usual today, but I happened to glance at myself in a mirror that didn't have the most flattering light and boy, at 5 months out from D-Day I notice that this experience has aged me a lot in a short period of time.



The trauma of betrayal plus grief and the roller coaster ride toward R that I've been on have really done a number on me.

My WS is mostly on board now, but I don't feel he's doing as much of the heavy lifting as he would if his mental health was better (he struggles with an anxiety disorder), and I'd like the help and support of a MC. I hope he'll come around and agree to it, but for now, he's not wanting to go.

Because it bothered me so much, he did quit seeing his IC, who I thought was making matters worse for us. It helped at first, but then I think he gave her a very distorted picture of our marriage - rewrote our marital history, as is so common with WS's - and the IC (who admitted she's not a MC) asked him why he stayed married if he was so "miserable," a question which may have actually helped drive him toward meeting with a divorce attorney.

I was also triggering because the IC was female, and he was keeping a lot of what he told her "secret." A female confidante - that's what got him into his affair in the first place. So I do appreciate that he quit because his seeing her was upsetting me.

This week he's got a good work assignment now that's making him happy (based on texts and phone calls today), and when he's done this before it's been better than any "therapy" - I hope it will spill over and make him easier to deal with at home as we work on our R. I can't afford to age any faster than I already am!!


----------



## Robsia

How to exorcise this deep sadness? As I've shared with you before, lately BigMac has been a different man. He's been attentive, affectionate, initiating contact, arranging dates. He has bought us VIP tickets to a local open-air proms concert next month which includes a bottle of champage, food, a VIP viewing area, and all sorts of other little extras. He's really spoiling me, which is great.

So I don't have that worry any more that he's not truly remorseful. He's doing exactly what I asked him to do first time round, which is winning me back, wooing me, proving to me that he is worthy of me reconsidering him. And he's doing a pretty good job.

So why am I still not happy? It's not what he is doing NOW that's making me unhappy, but I can't seem to stop my mind going back to what he did, dwelling on it, thinking about it, remembering all the lies he fed me during those months, revisiting the hurt. Especially now we're approaching the first anniversary of when this all began - he got the first message from one of his dating site women on about 7th July, which means that he initiated the memberships at about the same time. So from now on I'm going to be thinking "This time last year he was doing such and such a thing." It's going to get worse when we get to the start of when he met the first OW that he actually had an affair with. How can I stop myself doing this?

~

The other thing that's going on right now is that the landlord of the house me and the girls are living in wants to sell, and he has given us two month's notice. We talked seriously about the possibility of us moving back in with BigMac. I decided it was a bad idea for several reasons:
1) I hate his house. It makes me trigger. I hated it even before I left him, and even more so now.
2) We have barely started our MC and not really touched on the reasons our M was in trouble in the first place. We've done some work on our own, but not with a proper counsellor. We don't want things to go back to the way they were, either of us. We shouldn't be thinking about living together again until we have really hammered out what those issues were and come up with some solid ways of dealing with them.
3) The same with his AM therapy. He has barely started. The bloody NHS is so slow, he has only had a couple of appts with this woman he's been seeing. He was meant to have another one on Thursday but she has cancelled it. So, again, anything he has managed to do with regard to controlling Mr. Nasty, he has done on his own.

The last thing we need is for us all to move in, for me to put the girls through all theta upheavel AGAIN, only to find it's no better, and for us all to have to move out again a year down the line. If it was just me it wouldn;t be so bad, but it has to be right for me to put my girls through all that again.

So far so good. We agree that we shouldn't move back in together, for good and valid reason

But then, my stupid brain starts to think - why? Doesn't he want me to move back in? I guess what I want is for me to say "This is a bad idea" and for him to be disappointed, for him to say "Okay - well I would love for you to move back in again, but I will respect your decision." Instead he's all "Yes, I definitely don't think you should move back in again yet." So then my suspicion and paranoia wakes up and says "Why? What is he doing that he can do more easily if I'm not there?"

It's crazy. Why am I thinking this way?

I have him on Find My Friends, I know where he is all the time. He's not going out and meeting people. We Face time every night that we're not together. The only thing he could possibly be doing behind my back is emailing people. So I don't really think that he is up to anything. But I still wonder.


----------



## Acoa

Robsia, how was your mood prior to Dday? Looking back (and a few therapy sessions) I was already depressed. Dday just gave me something to focus it on. Even after FWW was doing the right stuff I couldn't shake the sadness and hopeless feeling. 

I am currently trying Zoloft and it is taking the edge off. The feelings are not gone (which is good), but they are at a much more tolerable level.

Side effects for me have been minimal, but the possible ones are pretty scary, so it's not a path to choose lightly. I plan to stay on them for six months then ween off and see how I feel without them.


----------



## Robsia

Well, mostly it was okay, as we were getting along quite well, strangely enough. However, I did have suspicions - rightly so as it turned out - and whenever he went away, I would root through the house for evidence. I actually didn't expect to find anything - I just put it down to me being paranoid. It was a massive shock when I actually did find evidence.

But I wouldn't say I was depressed before D-day - felt quite good about things actually.


----------



## bfree

Robsia, is it possible you are still in "protect mode?" After all you and Mac have been through a lot and you have reason for being cautious. Maybe its just going to take some time for you to open up a little more?

Acoa, how are you doing my friend? Is your wife still turning her attention from theater to the marriage? Is she more on board now?


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Acoa, how are you doing my friend? Is your wife still turning her attention from theater to the marriage? Is she more on board now?


It's going well Bfree. She is definitely working much harder on the marriage now. She isn't currently involved in a production. Next theater event is an awards party and we will attend together. 

I think she finally woke up to the pain she caused. I'm also getting better at expressing myself without attacking her (emotionally). The anti depressants have helped by taking the edge off the anxiety and in general I'm having more 'good mood' times than not. It's much easier to have these discussions when you are not feeling like you are at the end of your rope. And easier to wait until the agree upon time for the discussions. I had been ambushing her at random times. That was fine in the immediate aftermath of Dday, but its time to move out of wartime mode and be more reconciliatory. 

She has agreed, that in the best interest of our marriage and to prevent causing me pain she will 'tighten' up some of her boundaries. We have discussed some of those things in detail and come to a middle ground that is workable for both of us.


----------



## bfree

Acoa said:


> It's going well Bfree. She is definitely working much harder on the marriage now. She isn't currently involved in a production. Next theater event is an awards party and we will attend together.
> 
> I think she finally woke up to the pain she caused. I'm also getting better at expressing myself without attacking her (emotionally). The anti depressants have helped by taking the edge off the anxiety and in general I'm having more 'good mood' times than not. It's much easier to have these discussions when you are not feeling like you are at the end of your rope. And easier to wait until the agree upon time for the discussions. I had been ambushing her at random times. That was fine in the immediate aftermath of Dday, but its time to move out of wartime mode and be more reconciliatory.
> 
> She has agreed, that in the best interest of our marriage and to prevent causing me pain she will 'tighten' up some of her boundaries. We have discussed some of those things in detail and come to a middle ground that is workable for both of us.


Awesome. As you know I had my doubts that she would come around but you held her feet to the fire and she responded better than I thought she would. Just hold your frame as a confident man that is willing to walk away if needed. Make sure she realizes that this is the new marriage reality and there isn't any going back. As you start to feel more comfortable in the relationship start adding some "fun" and spontaneity to your daily lives. Go a little caveman once in a while and then pamper the heck out of her at other times. Keep things interesting and different. As long as she is thinking about you and what you "might" do (in a positive way) she won't have time for anything else. Remember that this is your life's journey and she is your passenger.


----------



## margrace

Robsia said:


> I don't have that worry any more that he's not truly remorseful... but I can't seem to stop my mind going back to what he did, dwelling on it, thinking about it, remembering all the lies he fed me during those months, revisiting the hurt. Especially now we're approaching the first anniversary of when this all began - he got the first message from one of his dating site women on about 7th July, which means that he initiated the memberships at about the same time. So from now on I'm going to be thinking "This time last year he was doing such and such a thing." It's going to get worse when we get to the start of when he met the first OW that he actually had an affair with. How can I stop myself doing this?
> 
> ...I don't really think that he is up to anything. But I still wonder.


robsia, for me, you are pointing out such a mystifyingly hard part of R.

okay, oversimplification coming but here are some stages of post-A as i have encountered them (i know it went differently for others): 

1) there is the massively crushing, disorienting experience of the d-days. you lose your mind. 

2) you're hanging on and putting one foot in front of the other. you're mostly a ball of pain and things are blurry, but you know that you have to go back to work or whatever, and slowly your mind starts to function. my WS....who _is_ this person? what is this world? what do i want? 

3) you're shattered and crazy but some kind of survival mode -- or wartime mode, as bfree called it -- kicks in and now you're fighting, you're fighting, you're doing detective work, you're getting a therapist, you're vigilant, you're reading TAM, you're reading books, you're scrutinizing WS. still tricking me? still lying and sneaking around? or still trying to, still wanting to? you are exhausted but your mind is flurrying all the time, 24-7.

and

3) triggers, memories, and mind movies torment you during the day and night. you think of those other(s) who saw and touched WS's naked skin, and you think of WS's intimate looks and sounds, and you know when and where they were together -- and you see it all, over and over and over. you think of how, minutes or hours later, WS casually sat before you, spewing lies to your face so that he/she could do it again next week. something as minor as catching WS's eye for a second can start the movies going.

4) WS is trickle-truthing and/or still lying and/or still cheating. you have one or more additional d-days. you go back to #1 each time.

5) WS shows some signs that look positive. did i forget to mention that you still love WS ? by now, you are thinking in terms of working toward R. you try to grapple in a meaningful way with your own issues and the problems that you know existed in the marriage before all this, the ones that you _both _contributed to.

6) you learn about R on the reconciliation thread. what you learn is that WS is not actually remorseful yet = false R 

and

6) the reconcilers encourage you to bring your focus to your own life, which begins to feel natural. it feels like a good lifeboat since the ocean is still dark, choppy, and unpredictable.

(time passes.)

7) something happens. WS begins to get it. the clouds seem to part a little. you are scared in a brand new way. _ohhhh_ no, you are NOT getting me out of this boat that saved my life!

8) every day, WS steps up a little bit more. honesty, transparency, voluntary openness about comings and goings.... all of these are _real_ in your relationship now. each session of MC shows you new horizons. eventually true miracles occur: WS _can_ talk about feelings (_what?!_) and can even ask you about yours. now you are not doing all the work anymore. WS is actively driving the healing process. you realize that you have respect for this.

9) the R work is real and growing. the fighting, surviving stance that you adopted earlier, which protected you and helped you survive, seems a bit less relevant. you see land, so you find yourself entertaining thoughts of getting out of the lifeboat. WS is being awesome.

10) the mystifyingly hard part! WS is now doing everything that a person can do, and things are good between you -- in fact, better and more hopeful than _ever before_. land is in sight! yet, here comes a mind movie! it's still painful, but also annoying now, because _why?_ the memories and triggers are still painful, but also annoying, because _why?

_well, now that i've written those stages out, i almost feel that i answered it for myself: just give it time! you're getting there -- just take another breath, be strong, be grateful, and keep going! but i guess i will post this any_way 
_


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## Acabado

margrace said:


> [/I]well, now that i've written those stages out, i *almost* feel that i answered it for myself: just give it time! you're getting there -- just take another breath, be strong, be grateful, and keep going! but i guess i will post this any_way _


It's always this way. We rarely tell others what we are not telling us.
This was a great post. Great - hard learned - insights.
Thanks.


----------



## Robsia

You forgot to mention that the ocean is full of potential OWs and that I'm scared stiff to rock the lifeboat with WH and me in it in case he decides to jump ship into that sea of welcoming OWs.

And even if we get to that welcoming land, it's still just an island with him and me on it, surrounded by a warm wet sea of OWs.

He went for a swim once before. What's to stop him doing it again?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By BrokenShadow*
> Do I hate her? April 17 I would've given a simple answer to a simple question. I loved my wife then, deeply. In a way I've been unable to feel for anyone else. Do I hate the wife I had? Absolutely not. *Do I hate the woman who betrayed me? With every fiber of my being.* This betrayal took forethought. There are posts here of women in bad situations due to alcohol, drugs. She planned this. Discussed it. She knew that morning what she was doing. She knew when she drove to that hotel what she was doing. She knew what she had done when she came home to me. She spoon fed me lies when I begged for honesty. Such hateful, selfish lies dropping so easily from her lips.
> 
> And now what? She feels bad? It was a mistake she wishes she could take back? Remorse is her penance for destroying my heart? Was she thinking remorse when she was laughing behind my back at h how clever she was to pull the wool over my eyes? When she gave herself to another man? She served me pain unimaginable on a plate, slamming it in front of me, with a side of lies, and said eat up. And now deserves my compassion and support because she regrets going to a hotel room like a paid for wh0re? *Hate courses through my veins, while rage thunders in my ears*. The soft voice of my heart pleading mercy, mercy.
> 
> But the only thing that matters now is who is it I sleep next to at night? This R is about finding that out. If it's my wife, we have a chance. If my heart tells me it's not...



One of your questions that I addressed was
*“what can I do to start to show her I appreciate her actions?”*
I gave you good answers but you have found a way to dismiss them.


From your post above you are controlled much more by your hate and rage at this time than anything else. Everyone that has been betrayed knows your hate and rage but you will eventually make a choice. Either you will take actions to make this relationship better or you will leave. *Staying in the middle with hate and rage will hurt you both.*



You asked for advice and I gave you some. I have been where you are and now I am much better. *If you are going to change then you need to be a little more open to how others became successful.* There are others that have years and years foi sucessfull R or D; you would do yourself a favor if you would listen to them and then take actions. I am not saying you have to R to be successful; you can D and be successful, it is just that the *hate and rage will eat you alive*


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## Mr Blunt

Margrace’s last post t was really very good!

I especially liked the ones reprinted below:




> 9) the R work is real and growing. the fighting, surviving stance that you adopted earlier, which protected you and helped you survive, seems a bit less relevant. *you see land, so you find yourself entertaining thoughts of getting out of the lifeboat*. WS is being awesome.
> 
> 
> 
> 10) the mystifyingly hard part! WS is now doing everything that a person can do, and things are good between you -- in fact, better and more hopeful than ever before. land is in sight! yet, here comes a *mind movie*! it's still painful, but also annoying now, because why? the *memories and triggers* *are still painful*, but also annoying, because why?


I would add this:
Constantly work on yourself to be the best person for you that you can be. This may take quite a while. *When you get closer to being convinced that you are a very good person and have improved yourself in body, mind and spirit, then those things that are bothering you now will be insignificant. *


*You can get yourself into a state that you know that you will be alright with or without them.* Of course you prefer to make it with them but it is not a great fear to not be with them. The stronger you are the better the chances that you can help your spouse/SO.


Although it does take time and appropriate actions by the BS, but you do not have to be scarred stiff such as described in the post below.




> I'm *scared stiff* to rock the lifeboat with WH and me in it in case he decides to jump ship into that sea of welcoming OWs


.


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## Rookie4

SomedayDig said:


> One.


NONE!! That is what I stressed to Sweetie when I gave her the opportunity to see me again. Our old marriage was dead, and she killed it. We are like old friends, with shared past experiences, but that's all. She has an opportunity to start a new relationship with me, but I can and will pull the plug if I'm , in any way , dissatisfied with this new arrangement. Actually, I think this is a better situation than if I had tried to R with her.


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## Rookie4

Two things our divorce did, was focus her mind on her issues , in a way that nothing else could have, and gave me the time away from her to decide what I want by experiencing the other side of life.. The new Sweetie is more open, honest, loving, desirable, faithful, gentle and even-tempered than the old model ever was. I wouldn't trade the new model for 1,000,00 of the old one.


----------



## Refuse to be played

So my nosy a## neighbors guessed that I was the one cheating since I left the house, her family came in to town, and her overall crappy appearance she had for about a week. 

I find it highly annoying, the looks and guys posturing as if I'm going to make a play for their women. Also the subtle flirtations a couple of women keep throwing my way since the rumor spread. Now I only told half the problem I'm having with this in my thread because I don't want to get flamed for it. I could have my wife correct this and tell a few of her neighborhood friends the truth but I don't want to put her through that. She just recently started getting better.

I figure most people would stop caring after a while since I'm a guy and just assume I can't keep in my pants. If the truth gets out I don't want her to be ostracized by everyone in the neighborhood and it won't go away as easily. I guess I should just suck it up and wear the A on my chest until people lose interest. Or am I being too soft on her?


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## TCSRedhead

Um, if it's causing conflict in the neighborhood, I'd set the record straight. No gory details but something like 'I'm not the one who cheated but thanks for your concern'. 

Either way, women will still make a play. There were a few opportunistic women who were after Hub when they found out and we were very select in who we told. (I'm the fWW)


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## Brokenshadow

TCSRedhead said:


> Um, if it's causing conflict in the neighborhood, I'd set the record straight. No gory details but something like 'I'm not the one who cheated but thanks for your concern'.
> 
> Either way, women will still make a play. There were a few opportunistic women who were after Hub when they found out and we were very select in who we told. (I'm the fWW)


Not to put too fine a point on it, and forgive me for asking, but why'd you do it? During any of it, particularly if it went physical, didn't you think of him? BS here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

Chiming in had to tell someone. I am triggering by simply folding my WH clothes. To think he ever got to wear clean clothes while out and about because his dutiful wife made sure he always had clean clothes to wear. I feel like throwing every last piece of clothing out and make him buy new. How totally disgusting, shame on me.....


----------



## MattMatt

jupiter13 said:


> Chiming in had to tell someone. I am triggering by simply folding my WH clothes. To think he ever got to wear clean clothes while out and about because his dutiful wife made sure he always had clean clothes to wear. I feel like throwing every last piece of clothing out and make him buy new. How totally disgusting, shame on me.....


No. The shame is on him.


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## Acabado

Refuse to be played said:


> I figure most people would stop caring after a while since I'm a guy and just assume I can't keep in my pants. If the truth gets out I don't want her to be ostracized by everyone in the neighborhood and it won't go away as easily. I guess I should just suck it up and wear the A on my chest until people lose interest. Or am I being too soft on her?


In my case I had the great adventage that i don't give a sh1t about what people may think except for a very selected group and they don't know, I prefer it this way. On her part nobody knew about her affair while ongoing, just one of my wife's friends suspected after DDay and she told and she suported us fully.
Still I've knew cases in which the betrayed spouse has been badmouthed, preventively gaslighted and demonized to cover the cheating. I use to suggest the good name and dignity has to be restored by the wayward as a part of the "making amends".
In your case... are those neibourghs real close friends? If not I suggest your to wait for a while, gossips fade and change. Tomorrow morning they will have another one. You can evaluate later whether is convenient to give some explanation or not. I believe exposure is detrimental to R. You already did whatever you had to, ILs... you are preparing to nail OM... The affiar was already dead. Too many people in the know can casue tons of problems.
To me it's not a problem of consequences or being too soft... nothing about that.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Acabado said:


> In my case I had the great adventage that i don't give a sh1t about what people may think except for a very selected group and they don't know, I prefer it this way. On her part nobody knew about her affair while ongoing, just one of my wife's friends suspected after DDay and she told and she suported us fully.
> Still I've knew cases in which the betrayed spouse has been badmouthed, preventively gaslighted and demonized to cover the cheating. I use to suggest the good name and dignity has to be restored by the wayward as a part of the "making amends".
> In your case... are those neibourghs real close friends? If not I suggest your to wait for a while, gossips fade and change. Tomorrow morning they will have another one. You can evaluate later whether is convenient to give some explanation or not. I believe exposure is detrimental to R. You already did whatever you had to, ILs... you are preparing to nail OM... The affiar was already dead. Too many people in the know can casue tons of problems.
> To me it's not a problem of consequences or being too soft... nothing about that.


They are not close to me, most of my friends are from school and are college aged. She's the one that makes friends with the neighbors (I find most of them boring) and be active in the community and crap. Them thinking I cheated is a moderate annoyance that they'll forget in a few months when they get something else to gossip about. I can take it because I don't give a s### about most of them, I don't know if she can she wants to be liked.


----------



## Refuse to be played

TCSRedhead said:


> Um, if it's causing conflict in the neighborhood, I'd set the record straight. No gory details but something like 'I'm not the one who cheated but thanks for your concern'.
> 
> Either way, women will still make a play. There were a few opportunistic women who were after Hub when they found out and we were very select in who we told. (I'm the fWW)


When it comes to other women IDK what would be worst. Being known as the betrayed or the wayward. I always had to deal with one or two of them making a play. Everyone knows my wife travels a lot for work. But now they are just crazy obvious with it now since I came back home after Dday. One woman thats making a hard play is in her mid-40's and married with kids. I freaking shook her husbands hand before at a BBQ.

The attention is kind of a ego boost though. Not going to lie.


----------



## Brokenshadow

Refuse to be played said:


> When it comes to other women IDK what would be worst. Being known as the betrayed or the wayward. I always had to deal with one or two of them making a play. Everyone knows my wife travels a lot for work. But now they are just crazy obvious with it now since I came back home after Dday. One woman thats making a hard play is in her mid-40's and married with kids. I freaking shook her husbands hand before at a BBQ.
> 
> The attention is kind of a ego boost though. Not going to lie.


I know the feeling. At my new job, I'm the shiny new toy. I have a background in finance, so a few girls have come by, chatting. Their eyes glaze over when I talk about Black Scholes and option valuation, but the smiles stay. Make sure it's just your ego they're stroking, man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

jupiter13 said:


> Chiming in had to tell someone. I am triggering by simply folding my WH clothes. To think he ever got to wear clean clothes while out and about because his dutiful wife made sure he always had clean clothes to wear. I feel like throwing every last piece of clothing out and make him buy new. How totally disgusting, shame on me.....


I get your anger. The home fires were kept burning for my WS too. He got to "play" during his affair, and he's played a lot before, during, and after with all of his hobbies. I still have a lot of anger over all the playing he's done (hobbies and the A) while I've gone without things as he spends beyond our means, and as always, I continue to do most of the work around the house, inside and out. 

This is one of the reasons I want so badly to get into MC; whenever I talk to him about this stuff, he just doesn't get it. He thinks he doesn't play too much. "At least I'm not at a tavern" and "I know people who spend a lot more than I do on these things" (totally in denial, because we can neither afford nor do we have room for all the stuff he buys).


----------



## Refuse to be played

Brokenshadow said:


> I know the feeling. At my new job, I'm the shiny new toy. I have a background in finance, so a few girls have come by, chatting. Their eyes glaze over when I talk about Black Scholes and option valuation, but the smiles stay. Make sure it's just your ego they're stroking, man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a finance major myself. In addition to the women around the neighborhood the girls on campus like a in shape slightly older guy. And I'll be careful the only think of mine's they'll be stroking is my ego.


----------



## Rookie4

Acabado said:


> In my case I had the great adventage that i don't give a sh1t about what people may think except for a very selected group and they don't know, I prefer it this way. On her part nobody knew about her affair while ongoing, just one of my wife's friends suspected after DDay and she told and she suported us fully.
> Still I've knew cases in which the betrayed spouse has been badmouthed, preventively gaslighted and demonized to cover the cheating. I use to suggest the good name and dignity has to be restored by the wayward as a part of the "making amends".
> In your case... are those neibourghs real close friends? If not I suggest your to wait for a while, gossips fade and change. Tomorrow morning they will have another one. You can evaluate later whether is convenient to give some explanation or not. I believe exposure is detrimental to R. You already did whatever you had to, ILs... you are preparing to nail OM... The affiar was already dead. Too many people in the know can casue tons of problems.
> To me it's not a problem of consequences or being too soft... nothing about that.


I agree with Acabado about this particular situation, but disagree with him about exposure, in general. But I still respect him, a lot.


----------



## mintypeas

hello everyone just an update- fWH had his first ic yesterday and came home a bit down and i could see he had been crying. he said once he started talking he could not stop!! which i knew would happen because the only person he has really spoken to about what he did is me so it was gonna pour out of him!! but things are good at the moment i still get down but we talk straight away about it and the A does not come up too often at the moment its more about what led to it. we are away at the end of the month for a week so really looking forward to getting away from normal life we will have our girls with us but the 16 yr old is happy to look after my 2 yr old so we get time on our own.

hopeful girl- how are things hun? x


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## SomedayDig

jupiter13 said:


> I feel like throwing every last piece of clothing out and make him buy new. How totally disgusting, shame on me.....


I made Regret do this. Every pair of undies and every bra. Clothes...$400 boots that I had bought her. All of it gone.

And do NOT shame yourself for thinking or even acting upon it.


----------



## russell28

Also had the wife toss all her underwear, the lingerie I tossed in the trash when I packed her stuff.. I ripped up the sweater she was wearing the day I caught her, and put it in one of her bags.. then I had her toss out all her 'pretty' stuff, anything that wasn't a t-shirt, any jeans that were low rise etc... any jewelry that she said 'her aunt' got her, gone... if I didn't buy it, I even tossed out some earrings I bought her (she reminded me) ooops.... 

No shame in that.. It was the right thing to do except the part where I tossed the earrings I bought, that was pretty bad, I paid like $50 for them.


----------



## soulpotato

Speaking of... I rounded up and threw away all OW gifts and related stuff (like old pictures, cards, etc) when I started talking to GF about R and wanting to fix my messed up self. But GF said it didn't matter that I disposed of the things because they were just objects. She was even taken aback that I tossed ALL the stuff in the dumpster without exception instead of taking some of the nicer items to Goodwill. I haven't read about any other betrayed reacting like that, and I have been puzzled by it. Any thoughts?


----------



## TCSRedhead

Brokenshadow said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, and forgive me for asking, but why'd you do it? During any of it, particularly if it went physical, didn't you think of him? BS here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was being selfish. I felt alone, neglected and unloved. Physical contact in my marriage was nearly non-existent. We didn't spend any time together. We had gone through a huge financial toll based on some choices he had made. 

I didn't seek out an A. A colleague I met started talking to me, strictly about work at first. Then social chit chat. It then went in to conversations exchanging pictures - explicit. 

I did think about my H. I did not think he still loved me or cared about our marriage any longer. (Yes, I had told H I felt this way).

When D Day happened, I wanted a divorce. I felt that there was nothing left to save.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Speaking of... I rounded up and threw away all OW gifts and related stuff (like old pictures, cards, etc) when I started talking to GF about R and wanting to fix my messed up self. But GF said it didn't matter that I disposed of the things because they were just objects. She was even taken aback that I tossed ALL the stuff in the dumpster without exception instead of taking some of the nicer items to Goodwill. I haven't read about any other betrayed reacting like that, and I have been puzzled by it. Any thoughts?


Thank God there were no gifts or keepsakes from the POS,he could'nt afford it anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

TCSRedhead said:


> I was being selfish. I felt alone, neglected and unloved. Physical contact in my marriage was nearly non-existent. We didn't spend any time together. We had gone through a huge financial toll based on some choices he had made.
> 
> I didn't seek out an A. A colleague I met started talking to me, strictly about work at first. Then social chit chat. It then went in to conversations exchanging pictures - explicit.
> 
> I did think about my H. I did not think he still loved me or cared about our marriage any longer. (Yes, I had told H I felt this way).
> 
> When D Day happened, I wanted a divorce. I felt that there was nothing left to save.


Sounds a lot like CSS,except I was fvcking starved for physical touch,even hugs and kisses would have been nice.
She said she did'nt love me and wanted a D,It accellerate quick.
She wanted out of the marriage and wanted it quick.
D day she said she was going to date him and not give him up.
I kicked her out.
She says she was selfish also,the damn I want what I want mentallity almost killed me.
I'll never understand,why not work on your marriage?
Going to an ex has bf who did six years in prison and still was caught bouncing checks?
Him over me....still hurts but things are getting better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brokenshadow

TCSRedhead said:


> I was being selfish. I felt alone, neglected and unloved. Physical contact in my marriage was nearly non-existent. We didn't spend any time together. We had gone through a huge financial toll based on some choices he had made.
> 
> I didn't seek out an A. A colleague I met started talking to me, strictly about work at first. Then social chit chat. It then went in to conversations exchanging pictures - explicit.
> 
> I did think about my H. I did not think he still loved me or cared about our marriage any longer. (Yes, I had told H I felt this way).
> 
> When D Day happened, I wanted a divorce. I felt that there was nothing left to save.


I appreciate the response. I'm fully aware of how vulnerable a WW can be on this board, having torn into one that was less than repentant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

The fvck up thing about me is a part of me wished I would have let her have what she wanted
So damn bad.
Let her have more than a tast of what would have made her happy forever felt like.
It (him) would have hurt her pretty damn bad.
Sorry............it does still sting after 16 months.
Crap,fvck,sh!t.....ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

calvin said:


> Sounds a lot like CSS,except I was fvcking starved for physical touch,even hugs and kisses would have been nice.
> She said she did'nt love me and wanted a D,It accellerate quick.
> She wanted out of the marriage and wanted it quick.
> D day she said she was going to date him and not give him up.
> I kicked her out.
> She says she was selfish also,the damn I want what I want mentallity almost killed me.
> I'll never understand,why not work on your marriage?
> Going to an ex has bf who did six years in prison and still was caught bouncing checks?
> Him over me....still hurts but things are getting better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It takes two to fix it. Hub thought it would work out in time. I was falling apart, facing our daughters leaving home and seeing how lonely our marriage had become. 

I recall him telling me about a conversation he had had with a friend and him saying he told the friend how good our marriage was. I literally laughed when he said that and asked what marriage he was in. I told him that the marriage I was in was a cold, lonely and sad place. 

The part I should have added that would have woken him up was to tell him that if it didn't change, I was leaving. That was where I was cowardly. 

I never wanted OM or to be with him. I just wanted to be wanted and desired again.


----------



## hopefulgirl

mintypeas said:


> hello everyone just an update- fWH had his first ic yesterday and came home a bit down and i could see he had been crying. he said once he started talking he could not stop!! which i knew would happen because the only person he has really spoken to about what he did is me so it was gonna pour out of him!! but things are good at the moment i still get down but we talk straight away about it and the A does not come up too often at the moment its more about what led to it. we are away at the end of the month for a week so really looking forward to getting away from normal life we will have our girls with us but the 16 yr old is happy to look after my 2 yr old so we get time on our own.
> 
> hopeful girl- how are things hun? x


mintypeas, things sound very much on the upswing for you! :smthumbup: Getting away gives you something to look forward to; I think you actually get enjoyment from it even before it happens, so you get benefit in advance.

Things are somewhat better here; there is harmony at home and I even got flowers from my WS yesterday (I'd mentioned the other day that he spends a lot of money on himself but rarely anything on me, and he actually took it to heart!). But, I still have more anger, grief and trauma going on in my head than I talk about, so it's hard to feel close when I hold so much back from the one who's supposed to be my best friend and mate. 

I hold back because I think he's still not thinking clearly (fog and/or his anxiety disorder); I have to be careful since I'm dealing with someone you can't always talk reason to. Some conversations are good, but others - communication really breaks down. There are things I try to tell him that he just can't seem to hear or comprehend. We both get frustrated. One more reason I'd like a MC to help get things across to him that I just don't seem able to. (He's still not keen on the idea of MC, but I will bring it up again - I just can't do it too soon.)

Now he wants to borrow money from his 401k to get a motorcycle. He's trying to convince me it's to save money (???); he says because of the gasoline and car repair savings (though he won't sell his car) it will pay for itself in a year (this makes no sense, since he'd be taking out a loan which he'll be paying on for 4 years and he won't be growing his 401k for those years, so he's basically stealing from his retirement for another new hobby). This is after he ran up his credit cards almost to the max on his last new hobby (the one he started after D-Day) - he probably can't get a loan any other way because of how he's used his credit cards.

I don't think I can stop him. This motorcyle may be his next mistress...


----------



## pidge70

Joe and I are still together. Not exactly wallowing in bliss but, working on it. Just thought I'd let you guys know. 

EI, thanks for talking to me the other night. I really appreciate it. Also, you are sooooooo cute!..........


----------



## calvin

TCSRedhead said:


> It takes two to fix it. Hub thought it would work out in time. I was falling apart, facing our daughters leaving home and seeing how lonely our marriage had become.
> 
> I recall him telling me about a conversation he had had with a friend and him saying he told the friend how good our marriage was. I literally laughed when he said that and asked what marriage he was in. I told him that the marriage I was in was a cold, lonely and sad place.
> 
> The part I should have added that would have woken him up was to tell him that if it didn't change, I was leaving. That was where I was cowardly.
> 
> I never wanted OM or to be with him. I just wanted to be wanted and desired again.


I understand that,me and CSS did it both to eachother.
We really did lose sight of how each of us felt,what we needed,compliments for eachother,the nice
little things we did for both.......ugh,we just forgot and took it all for granted.
Appreciation was'nt there......not good.
We have learned ( and still are ) how to take care of eachother.
Our communication has gotten much better.
If either of us does not know how we feel then we are dead in the water.
If only we both would have worked and realized this before.
Its not too late though.
There is plenty of proof right here on this thread. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Joe and I are still together. Not exactly wallowing in bliss but, working on it. Just thought I'd let you guys know.
> 
> EI, thanks for talking to me the other night. I really appreciate it. Also, you are sooooooo cute!..........


Pidge!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

calvin said:


> Pidge!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin!


----------



## calvin

Thanks for the update pidge,been wondering how you guys are.
You and Joe are in our thoughts.
Please let us know how things are going.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Calvin!


You're alright,Never forget how you stuck up for me to turnera.
She means well but.......
Thanks pidge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Bought a bunch of fireworks today,13 year old son is happy.
He wants to blow up some of his old models.
I still have a hard time hearing out of my right ear.
Me and my buddy lit a half stick with a quick fuse 15 years ago.
He got the worst of it,I was behind him.
Ugh...ear aches all the time still.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brokenshadow

TCSRedhead said:


> It takes two to fix it. Hub thought it would work out in time. I was falling apart, facing our daughters leaving home and seeing how lonely our marriage had become.
> 
> I recall him telling me about a conversation he had had with a friend and him saying he told the friend how good our marriage was. I literally laughed when he said that and asked what marriage he was in. I told him that the marriage I was in was a cold, lonely and sad place.
> 
> The part I should have added that would have woken him up was to tell him that if it didn't change, I was leaving. That was where I was cowardly.
> 
> I never wanted OM or to be with him. I just wanted to be wanted and desired again.


And yet...

Not trying to rake you over the coals or anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Brokenshadow said:


> And yet...
> 
> Not trying to rake you over the coals or anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people make mistakes......some fvck up big time.
Some deserve another shot,some don't.
Red does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Time to go blow up some old models with my boy.
Oh the skills us fathers pass down,think my daughter still has some Barby Dolls!
Happy Independence day all.
Be careful!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Brokenshadow said:


> And yet...
> 
> Not trying to rake you over the coals or anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And yet, what? 

What is it you would like to say or ask?

As for my S, it was never physical and I never said I loves him. I got off on the attention. Was I wrong, yes. 

I don't hide nor excuse what I did.


----------



## calvin

TCSRedhead said:


> And yet, what?
> 
> What is it you would like to say or ask?
> 
> As for my S, it was never physical and I never said I loves him. I got off on the attention. Was I wrong, yes.
> 
> I don't hide nor excuse what I did.


You're alright Red,I think Broken still is dealing with some issues,thats all.
There is nothing cut and dry about this crap.
It takes time and understanding.
No one can judge the BS or the WS execpt for their spouse.
Personally I have seen what Red has posted and she's true.
It takes a damn good person to take a hard look at them selves and
admit they were wrong and go about making things right.
Red,EI,CSS and others her have learned a lot.
Now they are helping and making sure others dont make the same fvck up they did.
Some deserve that chance.
You included Broken.
Welcome to B1's and EI's thread.
Its a safe place for all........( pretty much ) 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brokenshadow

TCSRedhead said:


> And yet, what?
> 
> What is it you would like to say or ask?
> 
> As for my S, it was never physical and I never said I loves him. I got off on the attention. Was I wrong, yes.
> 
> I don't hide nor excuse what I did.


Sorry, did not mean to offend, and not judging. You just said that you never wanted the OM, but you still carried on an affair. I'm not judging you, but the duality of it is just hard to accept. If you didn't want him, why did you do it? Calvin is right, I'm just viewing your experience through the prism of my own horrible experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brokenshadow

calvin said:


> Time to go blow up some old models with my boy.
> Oh the skills us fathers pass down,think my daughter still has some Barby Dolls!
> Happy Independence day all.
> Be careful!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy independence day to one and all. An eternal celebration of freeing ourselves from the tyranny of those tea drinking, cricket playing red coated limeys ;-)

It is a good day, it is a great day. -John Adams
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Brokenshadow said:


> Happy independence day to one and all. An eternal celebration of freeing ourselves from the tyranny of those tea drinking, cricket playing red coated limeys ;-)
> 
> It is a good day, it is a great day. -John Adams
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're a Limey!
Thats ok,so is matt matt,he's cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Brokenshadow said:


> Sorry, did not mean to offend, and not judging. You just said that you never wanted the OM, but you still carried on an affair. I'm not judging you, but the duality of it is just hard to accept. If you didn't want him, why did you do it? Calvin is right, I'm just viewing your experience through the prism of my own horrible experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife did it also,it never went physical.
The pos even taunted me for a year.
Sometimes good people lose their heads and do something ****ty.
Its how they make amends for what they did that counts.
Still,one chance and thats it.
I would expect the same of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Brokenshadow said:


> Sorry, did not mean to offend, and not judging. You just said that you never wanted the OM, but you still carried on an affair. I'm not judging you, but the duality of it is just hard to accept. If you didn't want him, why did you do it? Calvin is right, I'm just viewing your experience through the prism of my own horrible experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not offended. I just prefer directness as its easier to communicate that way. 

I didn't want him - the OM. 

I wanted attention. Attraction. To feel desired.


----------



## Robsia

BigMac and I had another MC session last night. It wasn't quite what I expected. They won't be seeing us together again for quite a while, last night was just to tell us how they want to proceed from here on.

They have referred BigMac to a programme they run called Equal Partnership which is basically for men with anger problems to help them be more equal and respectful husbands (although the counsellor phrased it more tactfully than that). It runs for 18 weeks and she described it as “intensive” but she did say that with only two exceptions everyone who has been on it has had a positive outcome, so it’s promising.

At the same time, I will be going for support sessions on my own, which will run concurrently with BigMac’s sessions, so that I can support him as he does his classes, although they won’t be weekly as BigMac's will be, just as and when. He has to go to another town about 20 miles away, but I will be having mine at our usual place, at the same 7pm Weds slot so when we eventually can come back together again, we still have that slot.

But they won’t see us for couples counselling until I have a positive diagnosis of whatever my ASD thing is, as that will affect how they can help us. Basically because the help for a couple where one has autism will be different for the help provided for a couple where one is just being a pain in the backside. But even though all the tests so far point strongly to me having it, they can’t go ahead until I have a actual diagnosis, which could be months. 

But that means that in the mean time, while BigMac is getting help for his issues, which is great, we are still left floundering with regard to handling the affairs. I feel that they are emphasising our marital problems, which is good because we do need help with those, but ignoring the issues which have arisen from the infidelity, which is less good. It wasn’t even mentioned last night. I am going on my own next week so she can let me know what to expect from these support sessions. They aren’t support for ME, from what I can gather, they are so I can support HIM. I might mention then about the infidelity issues.

Also what I might do is when I next see my ASD therapist on the 15th July, I might explain to her that we can’t have our counselling until then, and maybe she can bump me up the queue a bit.

One of the things the counsellor mentioned was the existence of something called Fractured Personality which is where someone can seem to have two distinct sides to their personality – like BigMac with his Mr Nice and Mr Nasty. I’ve always said I felt like I married two men. As to what can be done about it, I don’t know.

So we’ll just have to see how it goes.

We did have a bit of a breakthrough last night afterwards. He was at mine and he got a phone call from his ex-wife. It is his eldest sons's 21st birthday in a couple of weeks and he has been invited up to Scotland for the celebration, which is great considering that his sons didn't speak to him for several years after his ex-wife left him. Anyway, so she rang to inform him that the date had changed - it was going to be the day after what he'd been told before. But when he answered the phone he went out into the back garden to answer it, which REALLY bothered me. I'm unhappy enough that he's going up there and staying overnight at her house (which to be fair, he had run by me first and I'd said it was okay), but then the fact that he went off to talk to her alone really made me feel weird.

So I went upstairs and earwigged for a while out of the bathroom window. There wasn't much to hear, just chat about the boys and stuff. I went back downstairs and made him a coffee and took it out to him, then stayed out there with him, listening to his side of the conversation. They ended it by him asking if it would be okay if he brought his parents up, as they haven't seen their grandsons for five years. She said she would ask, and ring him back. So then he came back in and I tried to explain how it had made me feel when he took the phone out into the garden. I actually don't seriously think he will be up to anything with his ex-wife, but feeling are not always rational, are they.

So then when she rang back, he stayed in the room with me while he talked to her so that I would be more comfortable 

He also got to talk to his younger son for a while, which was nice.

But it was great that he listened and took my feelings into consideration, even though they were not rational.

Mind you, she has specified that I am not to come. "Don't bring your wife" was the phrase used. It's a shame because I want us all to get along, and its not as if I took him off her - she had left him months before I met him, but I wonder if she had always harboured hopes that he might come after her, and when he met me, those hopes were scuppered.


----------



## cpacan

Brokenshadow said:


> Sorry, did not mean to offend, and not judging. You just said that you never wanted the OM, but you still carried on an affair. I'm not judging you, but the duality of it is just hard to accept. If you didn't want him, why did you do it? Calvin is right, I'm just viewing your experience through the prism of my own horrible experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Broken; I don't post much, but seeing a bit of myself in you 12-18 months back, I think I'll add a few comments.

Your experiences are still fresh and raw, thoughts and emotions are killing you - and do I know about the lonelyness during commute time? Yes, I do - it's when all the dark thoughts creep in on you and you switch to full analyzing mode. You go over it again and again in your head, your imagination and fears run wild - been there, done that.

One thing I have learned on my journey is that you'll get really frustrated when you try to apply logic to a non-rational decission. I did it, sometimes still do, but it doesn't work that way. You'll get to the acceptance stage some day when you realize that you can't change a GD thing in the past. It's all about what you want today and in the future. Wishing it didn't happen won't get you anywhere or anything but frustration.

Another thing I learned on this thread is, that good people do stupid things, good people may end up in affairs, but if you listen to the WS here and treat them like you would like to be treated yourself, you'll get so much insight and compassion you could ever want from an anonymous board. I've made some really good friends here, both BS and WS, who are there for me, when I need it most - even though I haven't seen them and they live thousands of miles away - I don't even fit the typical TAM-profile. But it works, and I'm glad I found this place. Take good care of it. 

Be carefull not to project, it's difficult, I know. If you should ever visit and post in a forum for active waywards or OM/OW, you would find yourself projected to be an abusive, emotional retard who had it coming and deserved the betrayal. Been there done that - projections are powerfull stuff. The fWS on this thread are those who stick it out and get it - just ask them, and you'll get help, insight and support.

Other than that, it's up to you to decide whether you wanna stay with your wife or not. You don't need to decide right away, but once you decide, it's easier to plot the course of actions. To me, the kids were a major factor for trying to work it out, no kids, no marriage. The track record of 28 years and shared history of the past is just that, in the past.

About the rage, I urge you to re-read MrMathias post about finding the source of the anger/rage a few pages back - I think it was spot on.

Enoug rambling from me - I wish you well and a happy and meaningfull indepence day if you by any chance care to think about that...


----------



## jupiter13

Happy 4th Of July everyone. Independence Day what a concept....

After all the responses I saw about throwing away WH clothes I sort of did. I washed everything and anything I didn't like went out the door. Then I proceeded to take him out last night and made him get some new shoes. He seems to think he can only have one pair at a time. Well I'm sick of it and told him so. 

The emotional needs questionnaire had brought up appearance so if he would like to see me wear more make-up I want him to stop looking like a farmer all the time. I have even gone further and he will be getting a suit something I can bury him in when the time comes. Now isn't that communicating a long term commitment? (I already have mine) LOL


----------



## Acabado

jupiter13 said:


> The emotional needs questionnaire had brought up appearance so if he would like to see me wear more make-up I want him to stop looking like a farmer all the time. I have even gone further and he will be getting a suit something I can bury him in when the time comes. Now isn't that communicating a long term commitment? (I already have mine) LOL


:rofl:


----------



## cpacan

Regarding throwing stuff away... We did get rid of a spare matress and an expensive bedspreat that was gifted to us. When I say "we", I actually made it a point that SHE got rid of them. I had to ask her once why she would want to keep their facilities when I was reminded of them and triggered each time I went to bed.

She got the message and threw them out herself.


----------



## Brokenshadow

cpacan said:


> Broken; I don't post much, but seeing a bit of myself in you 12-18 months back, I think I'll add a few comments.
> 
> Your experiences are still fresh and raw, thoughts and emotions are killing you - and do I know about the lonelyness during commute time? Yes, I do - it's when all the dark thoughts creep in on you and you switch to full analyzing mode. You go over it again and again in your head, your imagination and fears run wild - been there, done that.
> 
> One thing I have learned on my journey is that you'll get really frustrated when you try to apply logic to a non-rational decission. I did it, sometimes still do, but it doesn't work that way. You'll get to the acceptance stage some day when you realize that you can't change a GD thing in the past. It's all about what you want today and in the future. Wishing it didn't happen won't get you anywhere or anything but frustration.
> 
> Another thing I learned on this thread is, that good people do stupid things, good people may end up in affairs, but if you listen to the WS here and treat them like you would like to be treated yourself, you'll get so much insight and compassion you could ever want from an anonymous board. I've made some really good friends here, both BS and WS, who are there for me, when I need it most - even though I haven't seen them and they live thousands of miles away - I don't even fit the typical TAM-profile. But it works, and I'm glad I found this place. Take good care of it.
> 
> Be carefull not to project, it's difficult, I know. If you should ever visit and post in a forum for active waywards or OM/OW, you would find yourself projected to be an abusive, emotional retard who had it coming and deserved the betrayal. Been there done that - projections are powerfull stuff. The fWS on this thread are those who stick it out and get it - just ask them, and you'll get help, insight and support.
> 
> Other than that, it's up to you to decide whether you wanna stay with your wife or not. You don't need to decide right away, but once you decide, it's easier to plot the course of actions. To me, the kids were a major factor for trying to work it out, no kids, no marriage. The track record of 28 years and shared history of the past is just that, in the past.
> 
> About the rage, I urge you to re-read MrMathias post about finding the source of the anger/rage a few pages back - I think it was spot on.
> 
> Enoug rambling from me - I wish you well and a happy and meaningfull indepence day if you by any chance care to think about that...


I appreciate the insight, cpacan. You're right in much of what you say. I'm taking it slow in terms of making a decision. We're trying to reconcile right now, I'm trying to see if there's still a marriage to salvage. What I wanted in my future was a happy marriage and a family. That's at risk now, the future is clouded. She says that she loves me, feels remorse, that it was a mistake. A mistake is running a red light,burning a roast. What she did took planning, forethought. She made a conscious decision, and worked her deception. All at a time I needed her most. Knowing that, feeling that, how can one possibly grant forgiveness? Her actions caused me such deep pain, destroyed my sense of love and trust, and burned a hideous fact into my mind forever. That's my sentence for her crime. And her? I'll have to console myself that she feels bad about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl

soulpotato said:


> Speaking of... I rounded up and threw away all OW gifts and related stuff (like old pictures, cards, etc) when I started talking to GF about R and wanting to fix my messed up self. But GF said it didn't matter that I disposed of the things because they were just objects. She was even taken aback that I tossed ALL the stuff in the dumpster without exception instead of taking some of the nicer items to Goodwill. I haven't read about any other betrayed reacting like that, and I have been puzzled by it. Any thoughts?


Some people (though it's not common in the western world) are very zen about material things. And the notion that it might have been better to donate the nicer things rather than toss them is a feeling that more and more people feel very strongly about. Keep it out of the landfills.


----------



## soulpotato

Well, GF passed her exam, thank god. I was suuuuper supportive for the whole week leading up to it, no pressure, no complaints, no breath of issues, nothing. Just, "You're terrific, you're diligent, you're smart - I know you've got this!!" 

I've created an "issues" book and a "good" book. In the issues book, I will note everything and anything I need to talk about and do my best to keep it for therapy rather than bringing up things in the moment or when they bother me. In the "good" book, I will write down everything nice or positive that GF says and does. When I am struggling, I will go to the "good" book and read it to try to reduce some of my emotional distress. 

There's more in the "good" book than the "issues" book at the moment, though I did write down some things in the IB just this morning. (Such as maybe wanting to talk about her being generally emotionally unavailable and possibly passive-aggressive. Though I may hold off on those because things are more positive right now.)

I took her out to dinner Tuesday night to celebrate her passing her exam, and afterward she was saying that she felt more hopeful again and maybe there was a possibility of us being able to work things out. I did not respond with how I felt...not really. Because we know how I feel about the hope of R being so conditional and fickle, constantly dangled over my head or snatched away, depending on how well she thinks I've performed for the minute/day/week. I mentioned something of that on the phone to her this morning, though (kudos to her - she called me because she detected sadness in my texts about her disappearing for many hours yesterday and not responding to my texts asking what had happened to her*). She said it's more about communication totally breaking down than anything else. But I think that's still too conditional. Really triggers me (hello legacy of messed up family dynamics). Just make a decision and stick with it, please. Believe in me or don't, just choose one.

*GF had an unexpected family event due to her mother hounding her to spend FAMILY TIME. She had lunch with her mother on Tuesday, spent all evening over there yesterday, is going to spend all evening there tonight, has plans to be there Saturday for her brother's birthday...and then she mentioned to me that the middle of the weekend after that that I thought was free for us to spend together was actually allocated to her brother (something about his actual birthday and celebrating - my brain shut down at this point). We started going back and forth about what she had or hadn't said about her plans, etc, etc...and I just started crying. I was like, "I feel like your family is more important than I am, and this has been a problem for us since the very beginning." Her voice was raised because she was frustrated with me and she accused me of dismissing anything she'd ever done for me...and I was like, stop globalizing, I am not saying that. Anyway, by some miracle we yanked things back to a better place, and she later texted me that she had cleared the contested weekend for us to spend some time together. <-- LOOK, something positive!

Just like the therapist said, I have been doing my damnedest to not ask about R or the deadline for a decision going by. I'm going to try to keep things positive for this entire month using my altered template for How To Approach This/Make This Work and see if that does anything. If not, maybe I will be writing to you guys from the loony bin, LOL.


----------



## soulpotato

hopefulgirl said:


> Some people (though it's not common in the western world) are very zen about material things. And the notion that it might have been better to donate the nicer things rather than toss them is a feeling that more and more people feel very strongly about. Keep it out of the landfills.


I usually think this way, too, HG. I like to recycle or see things go somewhere else rather than being destroyed, but I thought destruction would be more cathartic and symbolic for both of us rather than just finding the stuff a new home. I felt like showing any respect to the objects would be...counterproductive to what I was trying to express/achieve, I guess? Which was something like, "These things are so worthless to me that they are being tossed into the trash, regardless of their monetary value, usefulness, or beauty. They will never see use or value by another person - they are obliterated." 

For instance. There was this little blown glass seahorse that I valued for itself, not because it was an OW gift. I would have valued it had a stranger given it to me, because I love blown glass animals and I love seahorses, and I had never seen anything like it. I probably never will again. But I smashed that little seahorse because it was symbolic of something ugly, tainted, and horrific. Something that wounded the person who matters more than anything to me, made her doubt everything about us and about my feelings for her, and I enabled it, let it happen, participated in it. Since the seahorse was a part of that warped, gross web, it needed to be destroyed.

I'd destroy myself, too, except that wouldn't atone for anything, and it comes far too easily to me. It wouldn't make anything better for GF. I add to her pain if I do that, rather than being here and offering to do my best for her every day, and doing my best to be worthy of her and of earning her forgiveness. Fixing myself is the absolute hardest thing I can do.


----------



## Robsia

soulpotato said:


> Just like the therapist said, I have been doing my damnedest to not ask about R or the deadline for a decision going by. I'm going to try to keep things positive for this entire month using my altered template for How To Approach This/Make This Work and see if that does anything. If not, maybe I will be writing to you guys from the loony bin, LOL.


Yes, please do not put a time limit on R.

BigMac mentioned the last time we talked about trying to reintroduce me to his parents, that he didn't want to do that, have them accept me into the family again, when it was still an "if " between us. I tried to explain that it had to still be an "if", that I was committed to R, but it did still depend on his behaviour, and whether we could sort out the issues that led to me leaving him in the first place.

It's down to HIM that it's an "if" - not me!

But pressure is absolutely a HUGE no-no! It has to be the right time and no one can know when that right time will be.


----------



## Robsia

soulpotato said:


> For instance. There was this little blown glass seahorse that I valued for itself, not because it was an OW gift. I would have valued it had a stranger given it to me, because I love blown glass animals and I love seahorses, and I had never seen anything like it. I probably never will again. But I smashed that little seahorse because it was symbolic of something ugly, tainted, and horrific. Something that wounded the person who matters more than anything to me, made her doubt everything about us and about my feelings for her, and I enabled it, let it happen, participated in it. Since the seahorse was a part of that warped, gross web, it needed to be destroyed.


If BigMac had kept something like that, something one of his OWs had given to him, KNOWING how I felt about it, then I would see that as him valuing that keepsake over our marriage.

For heaven's sake, when we met he used to wear a St Christopher medal around his neck that his ex-W had given him. Now this was his WIFE, not some OW, but it still bothered me, that he would value something from a previous marriage.

So one year for his birthday/Christmas/anniversary - I forget what - I bought him a claddagh gold pendant and chain. Now he wears that instead.

He still keeps the St Christopher pendant in his car, because he is superstitious and feels it keeps him safe, but he doesn't wear it.


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> Yes, please do not put a time limit on R.
> 
> BigMac mentioned the last time we talked about trying to reintroduce me to his parents, that he didn't want to do that, have them accept me into the family again, when it was still an "if " between us. I tried to explain that it had to still be an "if", that I was committed to R, but it did still depend on his behaviour, and whether we could sort out the issues that led to me leaving him in the first place.
> 
> It's down to HIM that it's an "if" - not me!
> 
> But pressure is absolutely a HUGE no-no! It has to be the right time and no one can know when that right time will be.


Do you wait a year to hear whether or not someone wants to try to R or not? Two? Three? The therapist thought 6 months was a good amount of time. I think not deciding is just keeping someone on the hook just to have them around but not have to commit.

I now understand the conditionality of not doing things that violate the relationship or basic ideas of love and welfare/health and the catastrophic effect such things have on people and relationships. That certain things will just end us, and that my previous behavior may yet end us. But I'm just talking about things being more positive or less positive at any given moment shifting her thoughts on whether or not she wants to _attempt_ to R. We're not even at the point where we're trying to R, it's still in the evaluating-whether-to-try-to-R-or-not stage. I can't go on not knowing indefinitely whether she wants to try or not. I understand that I deserve a helping of hell and misery for what I've done to her, but I can only take so much. Considering that I was already in hell and misery before all this, and even during my EAs, that's a whole lot of punishment. And true enough, I've made my bed, but there ought to be limits somewhere. Otherwise it's wrong at some point, no? 

I told myself I wouldn't let it go past 6 months for just this reason. Yet here I am, relenting because I love her and don't want to give up. I think not having a time limit makes me way too vulnerable. She doesn't like making decisions and procrastinates on everything.

With me and GF, she's the "if", not me. You know what I mean? I'm throwing everything I've got into this. I'm doing things I've never done before. I am taking all of my old, dysfunctional safeties offline when I don't even have new ones yet to replace them. I am terribly fragile like this and she could blow me away easily. Yet here I am. I can't choose for her, but she does need to decide if I'm worth attempting to R with or not. The limbo just can't go on forever. Isn't it only right that a decision can be expected at _some_ point? An answer to the question, "Are we going to be together and try to do this...or aren't we?"


----------



## Robsia

soulpotato said:


> With me and GF, she's the "if", not me. You know what I mean? I'm throwing everything I've got into this. I'm doing things I've never done before. I am taking all of my old, dysfunctional safeties offline when I don't even have new ones yet to replace them. I am terribly fragile like this and she could blow me away easily. Yet here I am. I can't choose for her, but she does need to decide if I'm worth attempting to R with or not. The limbo just can't go on forever. Isn't it only right that a decision can be expected at _some_ point? An answer to the question, "Are we going to be together and try to do this...or aren't we?"


Yes, the BS has the final say on when the "if" changes. No question.

The Ws has no right to try to put a time limit on it. Sorry but I really feel strongly about this. I'm four months on and it's STILL an "if". BigMac has 18 weeks of this Equal Partnership progrmme to come. That's over four months again.

I don't know when the "if" will change into a "when" and he knows he has no right to pressure me on that. Ive told him it hinges on his behaviour, that if he does all the right things then he has nothing to worry about but that I have to give it a decent length of time befor I can make any firm decisions. And I don't know how long that will take. I've never done this before.


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> If BigMac had kept something like that, something one of his OWs had given to him, KNOWING how I felt about it, then I would see that as him valuing that keepsake over our marriage.


I saw it differently before. I tended to hold onto things and people for reasons that are probably too involved and tl;dr for this thread. It all came down to feeling safe, I guess. Obviously my thinking and ways of doing things were messed up, so that's why I'm in therapy.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

SP, just my 2 cents... If 6 months had been a deadline for Matt, we would be split. That was one of the darkest periods for us. Now, at 7 1/2 months, and work from BOTH of us, things are getting better. Here's the reality... She's still there, you still see each other, you are going to counseling and working on the relationship issues. IMO, even if she's afraid to say so, that's the beginning of R. Accept it, even if it doesn't come with a formal declaration. Time is a truly wonderful gift.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias, hi!
Glad to hear things are getting better.


----------



## soulpotato

Thank you, Mrs M...you are right, I get stuck on particular details sometimes and end up missing other important things. (I have trouble processing unstated things in a lot of ways.)


----------



## bfree

There cannot be a time limit on reconciliation. Reconciliation is for life. Reconciliation is all about learning to love better. And that never ends.


----------



## Lebanon Levi

bfree said:


> There cannot be a time limit on reconciliation. Reconciliation is for life. Reconciliation is all about learning to love better. And that never ends.


Agreed, but there has to be measurable progress. At some point you need to be reconciled, not in reconciliation. What that point is, and when it's reached, who knows?


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Thanks for the update pidge,been wondering how you guys are.
> You and Joe are in our thoughts.
> Please let us know how things are going.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



*Caaaaalvin*!!! REALLY? Seriously?  Somebody coulda at least given me a heads up that the thread was about to hit 9,000 posts! I may not post here often, anymore, ('Cuz B1 and I are busy.... enjoying our reconciliation ) but that doesn't mean that I don't, occasionally, read this awesome thread filled with such wonderful and amazing people. 

I'm promise you guys, and myself, no long post from me (not tonight, anyway,) but I do want to say one thing...... maybe two.  Reconciliation is one of the most challenging and exhausting experiences that I've ever known in my entire life. There were so many days that, even as I encouraged others to keep working on themselves and on their own marriages, I wondered if we would really make it through all of this and come out anything more than two hurting, damaged and broken individuals. But, we are both determined, not just to reconcile, but to HEAL and to be HAPPY, together. So, everyday, that's what we work on.... every single day, whatever it takes. May 27th, 2012, as many of you know, was D-Day. So, May was a hard month for us. What's worse was that, with the 27th being at the end of the month, it felt like the whole month was some horrible march to death. So, May was actually harder than the several months before it had been. But, we got through it. Then, B1 decided it was time for him to take a TAM break. I think it was exactly the right time for him to take a break. Sometimes, you need this place, and other times you need to know when to take a step back. 

Now, and here comes a really good part of our story, there was another D-Day of sorts, June 13th, 2012, two days after my first post on TAM, and the day that I chose to stop the trickle-truth and tell B1 the whole truth. That is the day that our reconciliation truly began. After we survived May this year, I knew we still had June 13th to get through. But, June also included my birthday, our youngest son's high school graduation, our 29th anniversary and several other special occasion days for our family to celebrate. In the midst of all of this I have also had a few minor health problems. On one particularly long and stressful day in June, I wasn't feeling well, at all. Before B1 came home from work he already knew that I wasn't feeling well. That whole evening he was so loving, so attentive, so kind and so amazingly wonderful to me. After he went to bed I got into the bath tub just after midnight. It was only then that I looked at the calendar on my phone and realized that it was now June 14th. I couldn't believe that horrible day had come and gone without B1 mentioning it one time.... not one word. Once again, I was reminded of how much he truly loves me. He knew how sick I was that day and he chose to rise above his own pain and his own distress and to simply love and care for me....... or, so I thought!  The next morning, before he left for work, I thanked him for putting his needs aside and taking care of me the day before. He seemed genuinely puzzled. Just as I had, he had also forgotten about June 13th. I think that's even better!  He and I have turned a corner..... and it's really beautiful on this side of the road. 

My point is...... Reconciliation is real. It really can succeed. Marriages can not only survive, they can thrive, too. Hearts can heal. Trust can be rebuilt. But, without the 100% commitment of both spouses I don't think it's possible. Even then, it's not easy. To borrow a cheesy line from the movie _The Notebook_, "I'm not sayin' it's gonna be easy, I'm sayin' it's gonna be worth it." 

To reconcile, each partner must decide for themselves whether or not their heart is fully committed to the relationship. Then, they have to be willing to take a huge leap of faith that their spouse's heart is, as well. This goes for both the BS and the WS. I read over and over on TAM where it is said that the decision to "R" belongs only to the BS. That's simply not true. Both partners in a relationship must be fully committed to make it a successful reconciliation. Granted, the actions of one can destroy a marriage, but it takes two to make it work. 

Keep taking care of one another, Reconcilers, here on the "R" thread and IRL, too! 

I love you guys!
Marianne (aka EI)


----------



## EI

Uh-Oh, did I say that wasn't going to be a long post?  Y'all know me better than that!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Lebanon Levi said:


> Agreed, but there has to be measurable progress. At some point you need to be reconciled, not in reconciliation. What that point is, and when it's reached, who knows?


You are reconciled when you both agree you are reconciled. Isn't it really that simple? But the reconciliation process it's ongoing and progress, whether in a reconciled marriage or simply a healing marriage, never truly ends.


----------



## calvin

Um...EI?
Did I do it again?
I..I...its all mine!
Sorry EI,I didnt even know,I swear.
How are you and B1?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> *Caaaaalvin*!!! REALLY? Seriously?  Somebody coulda at least given me a heads up that the thread was about to hit 9,000 posts! I may not post here often, anymore, ('Cuz B1 and I are busy.... enjoying our reconciliation ) but that doesn't mean that I don't, occasionally, read this awesome thread filled with such wonderful and amazing people.
> 
> I'm promise you guys, and myself, no long post from me (not tonight, anyway,) but I do want to say one thing...... maybe two.  Reconciliation is one of the most challenging and exhausting experiences that I've ever known in my entire life. There were so many days that, even as I encouraged others to keep working on themselves and on their own marriages, I wondered if we would really make it through all of this and come out anything more than two hurting, damaged and broken individuals. But, we are both determined, not just to reconcile, but to HEAL and to be HAPPY, together. So, everyday, that's what we work on.... every single day, whatever it takes. May 27th, 2012, as many of you know, was D-Day. So, May was a hard month for us. What's worse was that, with the 27th being at the end of the month, it felt like the whole month was some horrible march to death. So, May was actually harder than the several months before it had been. But, we got through it. Then, B1 decided it was time for him to take a TAM break. I think it was exactly the right time for him to take a break. Sometimes, you need this place, and other times you need to know when to take a step back.
> 
> Now, and here comes a really good part of our story, there was another D-Day of sorts, June 13th, 2012, two days after my first post on TAM, and the day that I chose to stop the trickle-truth and tell B1 the whole truth. That is the day that our reconciliation truly began. After we survived May this year, I knew we still had June 13th to get through. But, June also included my birthday, our youngest son's high school graduation, our 29th anniversary and several other special occasion days for our family to celebrate. In the midst of all of this I have also had a few minor health problems. On one particularly long and stressful day in June, I wasn't feeling well, at all. Before B1 came home from work he already knew that I wasn't feeling well. That whole evening he was so loving, so attentive, so kind and so amazingly wonderful to me. After he went to bed I got into the bath tub just after midnight. It was only then that I looked at the calendar on my phone and realized that it was now June 14th. I couldn't believe that horrible day had come and gone without B1 mentioning it one time.... not one word. Once again, I was reminded of how much he truly loves me. He knew how sick I was that day and he chose to rise above his own pain and his own distress and to simply love and care for me....... or, so I thought!  The next morning, before he left for work, I thanked him for putting his needs aside and taking care of me the day before. He seemed genuinely puzzled. Just as I had, he had also forgotten about June 13th. I think that's even better!  He and I have turned a corner..... and it's really beautiful on this side of the road.
> 
> My point is...... Reconciliation is real. It really can succeed. Marriages can not only survive, they can thrive, too. Hearts can heal. Trust can be rebuilt. But, without the 100% commitment of both spouses I don't think it's possible. Even then, it's not easy. To borrow a cheesy line from the movie _The Notebook_, "I'm not sayin' it's gonna be easy, I'm sayin' it's gonna be worth it."
> 
> To reconcile, each partner must decide for themselves weather or not their heart is fully committed to the relationship. Then, they have to be willing to take a huge leap of faith that their spouse's heart is, as well. This goes for both the BS and the WS. I read over and over on TAM where it is said that the decision to "R" belongs only to the BS. That's simply not true. Both partners in a relationship must be fully committed to make it a successful reconciliation. Granted, the actions of one can destroy a marriage, but it takes two to make it work.
> 
> Keep taking care of one another, Reconcilers, here on the "R" thread and in IRL, too!
> 
> I love you guys!
> Marianne (aka EI)


Excellent post EI,glad you kept it short this time.
Glad to hear some good news.
I'll be praying for you both.
BTW,the 10k post is mine also.
You cant stop me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> robsia, for me, you are pointing out such a mystifyingly hard part of R.
> 
> okay, oversimplification coming but here are some stages of post-A as i have encountered them (i know it went differently for others):
> 
> 1) there is the massively crushing, disorienting experience of the d-days. you lose your mind.
> 
> 2) you're hanging on and putting one foot in front of the other. you're mostly a ball of pain and things are blurry, but you know that you have to go back to work or whatever, and slowly your mind starts to function. my WS....who _is_ this person? what is this world? what do i want?
> 
> 3) you're shattered and crazy but some kind of survival mode -- or wartime mode, as bfree called it -- kicks in and now you're fighting, you're fighting, you're doing detective work, you're getting a therapist, you're vigilant, you're reading TAM, you're reading books, you're scrutinizing WS. still tricking me? still lying and sneaking around? or still trying to, still wanting to? you are exhausted but your mind is flurrying all the time, 24-7.
> 
> and
> 
> 3) triggers, memories, and mind movies torment you during the day and night. you think of those other(s) who saw and touched WS's naked skin, and you think of WS's intimate looks and sounds, and you know when and where they were together -- and you see it all, over and over and over. you think of how, minutes or hours later, WS casually sat before you, spewing lies to your face so that he/she could do it again next week. something as minor as catching WS's eye for a second can start the movies going.
> 
> 4) WS is trickle-truthing and/or still lying and/or still cheating. you have one or more additional d-days. you go back to #1 each time.
> 
> 5) WS shows some signs that look positive. did i forget to mention that you still love WS ? by now, you are thinking in terms of working toward R. you try to grapple in a meaningful way with your own issues and the problems that you know existed in the marriage before all this, the ones that you _both _contributed to.
> 
> 6) you learn about R on the reconciliation thread. what you learn is that WS is not actually remorseful yet = false R
> 
> and
> 
> 6) the reconcilers encourage you to bring your focus to your own life, which begins to feel natural. it feels like a good lifeboat since the ocean is still dark, choppy, and unpredictable.
> 
> (time passes.)
> 
> 7) something happens. WS begins to get it. the clouds seem to part a little. you are scared in a brand new way. _ohhhh_ no, you are NOT getting me out of this boat that saved my life!
> 
> 8) every day, WS steps up a little bit more. honesty, transparency, voluntary openness about comings and goings.... all of these are _real_ in your relationship now. each session of MC shows you new horizons. eventually true miracles occur: WS _can_ talk about feelings (_what?!_) and can even ask you about yours. now you are not doing all the work anymore. WS is actively driving the healing process. you realize that you have respect for this.
> 
> 9) the R work is real and growing. the fighting, surviving stance that you adopted earlier, which protected you and helped you survive, seems a bit less relevant. you see land, so you find yourself entertaining thoughts of getting out of the lifeboat. WS is being awesome.
> 
> 10) the mystifyingly hard part! WS is now doing everything that a person can do, and things are good between you -- in fact, better and more hopeful than _ever before_. land is in sight! yet, here comes a mind movie! it's still painful, but also annoying now, because _why?_ the memories and triggers are still painful, but also annoying, because _why?
> 
> _well, now that i've written those stages out, i almost feel that i answered it for myself: just give it time! you're getting there -- just take another breath, be strong, be grateful, and keep going! but i guess i will post this any_way
> _



Posts like this are not only meaningful for BS's, they are more valuable than gold for WS's, as well. This is exactly the kind of post that every remorseful WS needs to read, over and over, again. I gained no positive value, and I mean none, from angry and mean spirited posters whose greatest concern was projecting as much anger, rage and bitterness as possible onto any WS who happened by. I understand the cause of the anger and the bitterness, but still, it did nothing to help me. But, what's more important, and should be of importance to everyone posting on TAM, is that by not helping me you, in effect, we're not helping my BS, my children and other innocent people in my life who had already been harmed by my infidelity. Posts like this that focused on what effects my betrayal had on my BS, rather than focus on what you think of me, are what gave me the insight and understanding that I needed before I could even begin to develop the necessary compassion towards my BS and the desire and wisdom to work on myself, first, and then my marriage. 

I have honestly not seen this type of healthy and positive give and take between BS's and WS's on any other thread on TAM. You all continue to amaze me and I thank each of you for the extremely huge part you've played in my own reconciliation. If you are asking yourself if you played a part in it.... you did. 

I'm so thankful for all of you.


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Excellent post EI,glad you kept it short this time.
> Glad to hear some good news.
> I'll be praying for you both.
> BTW,the 10k post is mine also.
> You cant stop me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Calvin, I'll hunt you down and........ let's just say that the 10,000th post is MINE! You, Dig, bfree and whoever else might think it's funny to snag that post just haven't seen "the other side" of EI! You know the :rules: so don't make me :whip: somebody. I always say that it's everyone's thread, and it is. But, that post will be mine or :FIREdevil:

I am a Gemini, ya know!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> Calvin, I'll hunt you down and........ let's just say that the 10,000th post is MINE! You, Dig, bfree and whoever else might think it's funny to snag that post just haven't seen "the other side" of EI! You know the :rules: so don't make me :whip: somebody. I always say that it's everyone's thread, and it is. But, that post will be mine or :FIREdevil:
> 
> I am a Gemini, ya know!


I really didnt know...(snark)
Maybe I did.
Sorry EI,you've been kind to let us all post here.
I had no idea,if I would have I would have snaged that post just to be a jerk.
Wont happen again,maybe.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

WOW, 9,000+ posts!

Hey all, B1 here..just wanting to stop in for a moment and report that all is well in the EI\B1 home. Like I said a while back though I am keeping my distance from TAM, but I just wanted to stop in for a moment to give you all an update.

It's now been 13 months since Dday and EI and I are doing great. We talk far less about IT and IT isn't on my mind 24\7 anymore at all. I would say I have thoughts about it a few times a day but they are fleeting moments in time. Nothing that sticks. The hurt is not sitting there stewing like it use to be, waiting to burst forth. Basically, I can still have a bad moment, but no more bad days or even bad hours. 

I can still slightly trigger from certain songs, more from the words than anything, it's getting better with time. But, t.v. shows like mistresses and a new one coming out called betrayel I just can't handle at all. I still can't handle seeing infidelity on t.v. it's like I am watching EI and her AP. I just don't want to see two people being unfaithful, that still hurts me to the core. 

We have both worked so hard on this R giving it 110% percent the whole time and it's paid off. We can talk openly and honestly about IT. Well, come to think about it, we talk openly and honestly about everything. We have learned to communicate much better, or I have anyway, EI was always good at that. If something bothers either of us we don't hold it in anymore we get it out there and deal with it. 

Our marriage is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was pre-A. EI now has a involved husband who desires her, loves her and cherishes her and I have a wife that loves me, respects me and desires me too. We are not perfect, we will never be, but we are striving for better and better while living life together, hand in hand.

I cannot wait to marry EI "again" next year on our 30th anniversary.

Take care all,
B1 out..


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## Acabado

It's so heart warming to read EA and B1 posts.
Wants to thank you guys again for giving us this example.


----------



## EI

Acabado said:


> It's so heart warming to read EA and B1 posts.
> Wants to thank you guys again for giving us this example.



No, Acabado, thank you. You, with all of your adorable Spanglish, that often brought a much needed smile to my tear-stained face, were one of the very first BS's that successfully broke though the walls of the bitterness, resentment, and anger, that I had built around myself as a _shield of protection_ a few years before, throughout, and during the first couple of months after my EA/PA. Those walls were still firmly in place when I first came to TAM. You were direct, honest, and tough. But you were not cruel, condescending or punitive. I learned so much from you. 

My self-appointed role on TAM has been to offer compassion and encouragement to hurting people whether they are the betrayed or the betrayers. You play a much bigger role. After giving people, whether they are the BS's or the WS's, a swift kick in the a$$, when necessary, you then volunteer your incredible wealth of wisdom on every subject from discovery, dealing with, both, the remorseful and the unremorseful spouse, infidelity, reconciliation and/or divorce, heavy lifting and........ one of my personal favorites for both spouses.... personal accountability. You have walked the walk and talked the talk and you are standing the test of time in your own life and marriage. And, most of all, you stay here and continue to impart your wisdom on others when I suspect it might be easier to leave this (TAM) and all of its triggers behind.

So, thank you for leading the way and for leaving a positive path should others choose to follow. I remember so many of the things you've written and I play them over and over in my mind every single day.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Our marriage is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was pre-A. EI now has a involved husband who desires her, loves her and cherishes her and I have a wife that loves me, respects me and desires me too. We are not perfect, we will never be, but we are striving for better and better while living life together, hand in hand.
> 
> I cannot wait to marry EI "again" next year on our 30th anniversary.
> 
> Take care all,
> B1 out..




B1 will run for cover and hide in the closet and get all sheepish when I say, 
*B1 and EI are heroes of the TAM*. 
There are others but none as open and as uplifting.

YES you both are heroes because you both have what EI mentioned in another post (courage, honor). B1 has had the courage to admit his faults and then change them for the better. B1 has honored his marriage and is going to add to that honor next year at their 30th.

EI has done the same but I have to mention that EI is an addict. She cannot help but help everyone she can; she is such a compassionate woman, a living sacrifice!

OK, B1 I am through with this post you can come out of the closet now


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> To reconcile, each partner must decide for themselves weather or not their heart is fully committed to the relationship. Then, they have to be willing to take a huge leap of faith that their spouse's heart is, as well. This goes for both the BS and the WS. I read over and over on TAM where it is said that the decision to "R" belongs only to the BS. That's simply not true. Both partners in a relationship must be fully committed to make it a successful reconciliation. Granted, the actions of one can destroy a marriage, but it takes two to make it work.


:iagree: Damn, but you are so much more eloquent than I am! You say in one paragraph what it takes me weeks and thousands of words to _attempt_ to say, LOL! (Plus blundering my way through the whole time, so no one knows what I am actually trying to say!)

You are so full of wisdom and compassion. Mr Blunt and others have it right when they talk about the virtues that you and B1 possess. But you are faaarrr too modest about your contributions. Modesty is definitely one of your good points, of course, but.  You have been one of the few people to reach out to me and really engage me on TAM, and seem to have ESP to know when people are drowning and really need a hand. You are a splendid person, and I wish more people could be like you.


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## jupiter13

I found margrace steps to and through R very much to be the way I would think it should go BUT what happens when it doesn't. 
How do you really know that the forward process of R has stopped and we are now pretending all is fine. No more conversations about it no more answering questions. I have a tendency to send emails as our schedules conflict and those questions are bothering me NOW... (sent 2 emails June 12 and still no reap once) The questions are still a problem since I am questioning the first thing that came out of their mouth and what I was told is in conflict with our last conversation.


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## Robsia

I need to take the conversation down to doing the dirty for a while - yes, it's all about sex and it's going to be long.

We had a problem last night. During our marriage we always had a disparate sex drive - mine is higher than his, unusually. Quite often during our marriage I would initiate sex, only for him to lie there in bed like a lump of stone, totally ignoring my advances. Eventually I would get upset and withdraw, which would lead to an argument. He didn't always reject me, but it was more often than not. Conversely, there was only ONE occasion during our entire relationship when I rejected him - only because it was late, I was dog-tired, I had a headache and I had to be up early in the morning. Every other time he has initiated sex, I have enthusastically gone along with it. Every single time.

Fast forward to D-day 2 in May this year. I decided I was not going to initiate sex again. I was going to let him take the lead. I told him this, that I needed him to be more forthright in the bedroom, that I was tired of always being the aggressor, and that I needed him to be more caveman. I had also examined my feelings as to why I felt rejected and upset when he didn't want to have sex and I said that if he didn't feel like sex, to tell me, so there was no expectation. This seemed to work.

He has been very busy with work for the last few weeks but he coems round on Fridays and Saturdays. So pretty much every Friday, he has said something like "It's been a long day, is it ok if we just go to sleep?" and I have not been upset - which is real progress for me. Of course I understand that when you're tired, you're not always in the mood - which is okay. So I was happy, that we had established that if he just told me in advance, there was no expectation on my part, and no need for me to feel upset. But then on Saturdays, when he hadn't been working and wasn't tired, we would generally have sex, and it was good. I felt he was really listening to me. He was being more aggressive, more caveman, and it was great.

So, now we come to this weekend. Friday was as usual - tired, no sex. But then Saturday we went upstairs. He didn't say anything about just going to sleep, so I went to bed in my underwear, which is our tacit signal for me being interested - otherwise I put my nightwear on. Next thing I know he's lying there snoring away. I get upset. I leap out of bed, throw my pjs on and yank the light off then I lie there and seethe. After a while he wakes up and, I know this was wrong, but I start an argument. I end up accusing him of having an affair again, because the last time he lost interest in sex was when he was getting it elsewhere. He just basically ignored me. Didn't even deny it, or tell me I was being daft, let alone try to reassure me.

We argued back and forth and ended up talking about expectations. he told me that my default expectation when we go to bed should be "no sex" so I said if we were going to end up in a sexless marriage, then we may as well divorce.

Eventually we slept, but I didn't sleep well. He slept till gone noon and when he eventually got up, we small-talked for about an hour then took ourselves to the hall so we could talk out of earshot of DD2.

Now, I am NOT expecting that he should be willing to have sex whenever I want it, which would be an unreasonable expectation, but I reiterated the idea of him telling me if he wasn't in the mood, then I wouldn't have any expectation. He told me I shouldn't have an expectation of sex anyway and that I was being unreasonable. He said that the onus should not be on him to tell me that he doesn't want to have sex. Now, I don't think it's unreasonable that there is an expectation of sex within a marriage. We are both still relatively young (I'm 40, he's 44), we are in good health, so on a Saturday night, not too tired, not ill, and no reason to get up early in the morning, why should I not have an expectation of sex?

For me, sex is so much more than the physical, it is the ultimate expression of love. When we have sex, I feel cherished, loved, cared for, wanted, desired, safe. When we don't have sex, I feel unloved, unwanted, undesirable. I tried to explain this to him but his only response was that he didn't feel that way, therefore I shouldn't either.

I reminded him that I wasn't expecting him to have sex whenever I wanted to, but that a compromise would be that he simply tell me, then I have no expectation and I'm not upset. He doesn't see why he should. I should alter MY expectations so that my default position is that of "no sex" like his is. We just ended up going round in circles and I ended up getting upset and telling him to leave.

He also NEVER comforts me or reassures me when I am upset, which is a separate issue. he says that when I have upset HIM, he doesn't want me to comfort him, so he doesn't see why he should comfort me when I am upset. He says this despite the fact that I've tried to explain my needs. He refuses to accept that my needs might be different from his.


----------



## russell28

Try this, instead of telling him you want it, don't mention it, but put on something sexy and clean stuff in his line of vision.. Eat a banana split, lick the spoon like you want it.. Etc.. You get the idea 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

russell28 said:


> Try this, instead of telling him you want it, don't mention it, but put on something sexy and clean stuff in his line of vision.. Eat a banana split, lick the spoon like you want it.. Etc.. You get the idea
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can flirt with him all night, fondle him suggestively, make innuendos till the cows come home. He just rolls his eyes and moves my hand away from his junk. He actually accused me of making him feel like a sex object.

I could walk in the room stark naked and give him a lap dance and he would still reject me if he wasn't in the mood.

Sometimes he will even respond to my flirting and innuendos during the evening, make me think I'm getting lucky, then when we get upstairs - nada!


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## jupiter13

dito but there was no problem with the AP just me.


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> For me, sex is so much more than the physical, it is the ultimate expression of love. When we have sex, I feel cherished, loved, cared for, wanted, desired, safe. When we don't have sex, I feel unloved, unwanted, undesirable. I tried to explain this to him but his only response was that he didn't feel that way, therefore I shouldn't either.


Is it possible that BigMac thinks/feels differently about sex (and how love is expressed) and that's why he's on a different page? Of course, he needs to work with you on this and realize how important it is to you, even if it's not as important (or doesn't mean the same thing) to him.



Robsia said:


> He also NEVER comforts me or reassures me when I am upset, which is a separate issue. he says that when I have upset HIM, he doesn't want me to comfort him, so he doesn't see why he should comfort me when I am upset. He says this despite the fact that I've tried to explain my needs. He refuses to accept that my needs might be different from his.


Sorry that you are struggling with these issues.  I've often had them with GF, too.  Might have to do with them being locked into their own perspective/way of thinking.


----------



## russell28

Robsia said:


> I can flirt with him all night, fondle him suggestively, make innuendos till the cows come home. He just rolls his eyes and moves my hand away from his junk. He actually accused me of making him feel like a sex object.
> 
> I could walk in the room stark naked and give him a lap dance and he would still reject me if he wasn't in the mood.
> 
> Sometimes he will even respond to my flirting and innuendos during the evening, make me think I'm getting lucky, then when we get upstairs - nada!


That sounds pretty cold, sorry you are going through that.. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead

Whether you are reconciling from infidelity or just working through a marriage issue, it takes effort from both to fix the problems. What efforts is he willing to commit to on this?


----------



## Robsia

TCSRedhead said:


> Whether you are reconciling from infidelity or just working through a marriage issue, it takes effort from both to fix the problems. What efforts is he willing to commit to on this?


So far his efforts seem to be limited to telling me I'm the one with the problem, and that I should just not have any expectation of sex. Oh, and also, that if our circumstances were reversed that I'd be accusing him of sexual harassment, or words to that effect.


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## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> So far his efforts seem to be limited to telling me I'm the one with the problem, and that I should just not have any expectation of sex. Oh, and also, that if our circumstances were reversed that I'd be accusing him of sexual harassment, or words to that effect.


If you're being as clear with him there about this as you are here, is this a deal breaker?

For Hub and I, we had to determine what our needs were and agree to meet them. Hub need quality time and for me to text/call him during the day. For me, physical touch was my primary need. 

We regularly check ourselves to make sure the other is feeling that those needs are being met. 

That's a minimum type of effort in addition to working through the infidelity.


----------



## Robsia

TCSRedhead said:


> If you're being as clear with him there about this as you are here, is this a deal breaker?
> 
> For Hub and I, we had to determine what our needs were and agree to meet them. Hub need quality time and for me to text/call him during the day. For me, physical touch was my primary need.
> 
> We regularly check ourselves to make sure the other is feeling that those needs are being met.
> 
> That's a minimum type of effort in addition to working through the infidelity.


We recently had a "his needs her needs" type discussion which he completely blew off. He said that if we had to set out what our needs were it would feel fake and it should just come naturally. I pointed out that sometimes it just doesn't and that sometimes a spouse, with the best will in the world, is doing what THEY would want, not actually what their spouse wants.

I even asked him what his needs were. His answer "I dont know."

Certainly whenever my needs differ from whatever his would be in the same situation he point blank refuses to even consider that I might feel that way "because he wouldn't".

I am seriously beginning to wonder why I am even bothering. Here is a man who cheated on me, doesn;t want to satisfy me sexually, doesn't seem to care about my needs, and doesn't see why he should if my needs differ from his in any way, shape or form.

And yet other times he listens and gets it right.

He did text me earlier today saying sorry and that he hadn't meant to hurt me, which was a step forward, but didn't actually address the crux of the issue, or indeed any of the issue.

So I replied saying thank you for the apology, and that I appreciated it. He didn't respond. I texted him later asking if he wanted to FaceTime so we did, but it was very odd and stilted and didn't resolve anything.


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## TCSRedhead

I would sit down and draft some type of schedule to work on these things. For us, the easy one to tackle was The Five Love Languages because the book was divided in to sections based on your partners LL. 

We are going to tackle HN/HN next. The one thing driving us forward is that neither of us want the marriage we had pre-A. It was a bad time for us both.


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## CEL

Robsia said:


> We recently had a "his needs her needs" type discussion which he completely blew off. He said that if we had to set out what our needs were it would feel fake and it should just come naturally. I pointed out that sometimes it just doesn't and that sometimes a spouse, with the best will in the world, is doing what THEY would want, not actually what their spouse wants.
> 
> I even asked him what his needs were. His answer "I dont know."
> 
> Certainly whenever my needs differ from whatever his would be in the same situation he point blank refuses to even consider that I might feel that way "because he wouldn't".
> 
> I am seriously beginning to wonder why I am even bothering. Here is a man who cheated on me, doesn;t want to satisfy me sexually, doesn't seem to care about my needs, and doesn't see why he should if my needs differ from his in any way, shape or form.
> 
> And yet other times he listens and gets it right.
> 
> He did text me earlier today saying sorry and that he hadn't meant to hurt me, which was a step forward, but didn't actually address the crux of the issue, or indeed any of the issue.
> 
> So I replied saying thank you for the apology, and that I appreciated it. He didn't respond. I texted him later asking if he wanted to FaceTime so we did, but it was very odd and stilted and didn't resolve anything.


Well shyte that just sounds like you are screwed. You have read the books when your top EN is not met you are in a relationship that will NOT last. If you have a partner who is unwilling to even talk about what your needs are and is basically just stone walling you then the relationship is really on the rocks. And this is not even counting the rest of the stuff. For me I was where you are sex wise for years I wanted it she did not so I just got in the habit of not even thinking I was going to get it. Stopped asking for it. Stopped thinking about it. I would just take care of it myself. You know what I got with that scenario? An addiction to porn. A destroyed self confidence. A distorted view of my own body. And a mountain of resentment. So that was when I came on here and started looking and reading. Once I determined that not only should I expect a certain amount of SF from my SO but that because of MY willingness to put aside those needs I was actually just injecting myself with self loathing at my own weakness.

Now the reason for the lack of sex was different than yours and I had my part to play in it so that part I will leave out as it does not pertain to you. But once I fixed me I had a point blank discussion laying it out that sex was my top need and that I would no longer play second fiddle to work, stress, kids or bs. That if her top need was so important she would be willing to leave than mine was the same. Been a lot better since then I make sure to fill her needs and she makes sure to fill mine, is it perfect? No but it is 100 times better than it was. I still get turned down but it is because of health or sickness which I am okay with. So what does this mean? You have the right to expect your needs to be met in a relationship. You deserve to have someone put you FIRST not second to everything else where sex is only had when the planets align. Any discussion you have needs to start with that stance if you take the stance where you are leaving it at all open you are not being true to yourself.

The first thing you have to do is realize that you deserve to be in a relationship that meets your top 5 EN's anything less than that is to sacrifice you happiness for. This should always be your stance in ANY relationship. Now am I saying you should leave him? No I am telling you that you are retreating before you have even started the battle you went into this accepting that your needs could only occasionally be met and that was okay. You then tried to tell him why your needs should be met AT ALL and he blew you off. From his perspective why should he meet them? You need to understand your stance and the ground you are fighting on what you are willing to give up and what you are willing to walk away for. Now SF can be a lot of things my SO does not always want PIV but you can do other things, guess what so can he after all he has working hands and tongue was well as access to all kinds of toys so maybe he can't always go the full deal but he can do the O for YOU. Take a stand on the fact that not only is this a REQUIREMENT of the relationship for both of you to meet the others EN's but that if they are not met on a consistent basis that you will leave.

Now let me tell you some things I wish someone who new me would of said to me. You are beautiful. You are attractive. Men when you walk by look at you and want to be with you. There are men who see you and wonder why they could not have you. You are a great person. You are WORTH loving. You are not being unreasonable. You are a great lover. The problem is your HUSBAND not YOU.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> We recently had a "his needs her needs" type discussion which he completely blew off.
> 
> I even asked him what his needs were. His answer "I dont know."
> 
> Certainly whenever my needs differ from whatever his would be in the same situation he point blank refuses to even consider that I might feel that way "because he wouldn't".
> 
> I am seriously beginning to wonder why I am even bothering. Here is a man who cheated on me, doesn;t want to satisfy me sexually, doesn't seem to care about my needs, and doesn't see why he should if my needs differ from his in any way, shape or form.
> 
> And yet other times he listens and gets it right.
> 
> He did text me earlier today saying sorry and that he hadn't meant to hurt me, which was a step forward, but didn't actually address the crux of the issue, or indeed any of the issue.
> 
> So I replied saying thank you for the apology, and that I appreciated it. He didn't respond. I texted him later asking if he wanted to FaceTime so we did, but it was very odd and stilted and didn't resolve anything.


Robsia, I am going to revert to my normal direct style. His actions do not match his words. These are not the actions of a remorseful wayward putting in the effort to repair the marriage. 

Until he puts in the effort to meet those needs, I would begin the divorce process.


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## TCSRedhead

The other unspoken truth is that he isn't LD. LD doesn't seek sexual satisfaction, even outside the marriage. So why is he so with you?


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## Robsia

CEL - do you know he has never offered to satisfy me in other ways. He finds oral disgusting and won't do it (him on me, that is. He loves it when I do it to him, natch). I knew that when I married him and as at the time we had a good sex life in other ways I figured it was something I could live without. I know what you mean about the self-image. During his As I had put a bit of weight on so I've been trying really hard recently to lose it in case that had put him off me -especially as his APs were thinner than me. So now I'm getting streamlined and sexy, and he still doesn't seem to want me. It makes you wonder what's wrong with you.

TCS - I don't know if he'd be classed as LD or not. Under normal circumstances it's about once a week - certainly not like some poor sods who have to go for months without. But because of us not living together, if we don't do it one weekend, that's it then till the next weekend, and he's okay with that. He says that sex isn't something you plan, it either happens or it doesn't, and he's okay if it doesn't. I'm not.


----------



## CEL

Robsia said:


> CEL - do you know he has never offered to satisfy me in other ways. He finds oral disgusting and won't do it (him on me, that is. He loves it when I do it to him, natch). I knew that when I married him and as at the time we had a good sex life in other ways I figured it was something I could live without. I know what you mean about the self-image. During his As I had put a bit of weight on so I've been trying really hard recently to lose it in case that had put him off me -especially as his APs were thinner than me. So now I'm getting streamlined and sexy, and he still doesn't seem to want me. It makes you wonder what's wrong with you.
> 
> TCS - I don't know if he'd be classed as LD or not. Under normal circumstances it's about once a week - certainly not like some poor sods who have to go for months without. But because of us not living together, if we don't do it one weekend, that's it then till the next weekend, and he's okay with that. He says that sex isn't something you plan, it either happens or it doesn't, and he's okay if it doesn't. I'm not.


I just don't think I could be with someone who found a part of my body disgusting I get that may not be what he means but still......Especially if they wanted me to do them. I mean that is just so selfish that I just don't know how I would deal. I agree with TCS I don't think it is LD but I also think he is a selfish man who does not deserve to have a you. Does he meet your other EN's? Because at this point I have a hard time seeing how you can have a future with this man. And this is not even addressing the affairs. Simple put he is ignoring your top 5 EN's and has told you that it does not matter what you want you should just want what he wants. That right there tells me that this will not last long term relationships that do not nurture the top 5 EN's just don't last not happily. But you know that you have read the books. 

I am going to go out on limb and say you are open to suggestions besides throw the bum out. LOL. So here goes.

1. Sit him down and be clear your top EN's are not negotiable. Lay it down simply he either starts meeting them or you are done starting right now. Yep I had this talk and still hold to my guns I am to old to be in a shytty relationship when I could be fulfilled elsewhere.

2. Tell him he needs to be open as far as sex goes yes he does not have to do something he is uncomfortable with BUT it is on HIM to find an alternative. 

3. He is either in the relationship or he is out. If he is in then he needs to prove it by reading a DAMN book and doing the work sheets. His Needs Her Needs, Love Busters, 5 Steps to Romantic Love. Come on if you can do oral on him without getting anything he can damn well read a few books. I mean really?

4. Be honest this has little to do with his affairs this is marriage 101 you either meet your partners needs or you walk. 

5. I think you said you are in MC I would bring it up.


Now the hard part be honest with yourself he may not be attracted to you. You have him having affairs and not having sex with you. He may look at you as a great mom and homemaker but not as his lover. That is HIS problem never forget you are a wonderful women who is desirable. One question does he watch porn?


----------



## SomedayDig

LD with his spouse and he had an affair?

Hate to say it...sounds like he checked outta the marriage a long time ago and ain't coming back.

See...when you f-ck up and have an affair, and _truly_ want to reconcile, well everything changes in the wayward's life. I can say this cuz there is such a huge difference between the way Regret acted on March 6, 2012 and March 7, 2012. Then in the days and weeks following her immense LD issues went away in an extreme way. We were having sex multiple times a day every day for months during our hyper bonding time. Oh, it tapered off to a few times per week...until this past week when the kids went on vacation with their grandparents. Sex in the morning and at night and anywhere we want to.

Sorry...I think this Big Mac guy is gone.


----------



## Robsia

SomedayDig said:


> LD with his spouse and he had an affair?
> 
> Hate to say it...sounds like he checked outta the marriage a long time ago and ain't coming back.
> 
> See...when you f-ck up and have an affair, and _truly_ want to reconcile, well everything changes in the wayward's life. I can say this cuz there is such a huge difference between the way Regret acted on March 6, 2012 and March 7, 2012. Then in the days and weeks following her immense LD issues went away in an extreme way. We were having sex multiple times a day every day for months during our hyper bonding time. Oh, it tapered off to a few times per week...until this past week when the kids went on vacation with their grandparents. Sex in the morning and at night and anywhere we want to.
> 
> Sorry...I think this Big Mac guy is gone.


So, then why would he keep hanging around? If he didn't want to be in the marriage any more, he got what he wanted, I left. I moved out and took my bothersome kids with me.

What reason could someone who didn't want to be in a marriage any more have for continuing to hang around a wife who has left him?

I don't get it.

CEL - just to let you know I have read your post - but I know what his responses will be to every single one of your points. He doesn't read books. Anything I do for him in bed stands alone, it is my choice to do it, and should not be linked to any expectation of anything in return on his part, be it sexual satisfaction or reading books etc.

Also, technically we are in MC, but they have decided they cannot see us as a couple until a) he has finished this Equal Partnership course (18 weeks plus waiting list) and b) I have my ASD diagnosis (could be months)

I despair.

Ironically, his first wife had an even lower drive than he had. Birthdays, Christmas and anniversaries, from what he says. I thought he'd be quite happy to have a wife who was the opposite. I can handle once a week. I'd like more, but he is working very hard at the moment, and we really only see each other at weekends. But then when I only get it once a week, and then I don't even get that, and I can't even get him to see why this is a problem for me, and I'm made to feel like I have a problem or I'm selfish for wanting to have sex with my husband, I struggle to know what to do.


----------



## SomedayDig

Robsia said:


> So, then why would he keep hanging around? If he didn't want to be in the marriage any more, he got what he wanted, I left. I moved out and took my bothersome kids with me.
> 
> What reason could someone who didn't want to be in a marriage any more have for continuing to hang around a wife who has left him?
> 
> I don't get it.


My opinion is that its status quo. It would take a considerable amount of energy to actually leave and make a go of it on his own. As of now, YOU get to take care of things like the kids and whatnot. If he were to leave, well - he'd have to do EVERYTHING for himself. Cooking, cleaning to toilet, laundry...that myriad of stuff that needs doing.

And sometimes, selfish people can't be bothered with having to actually take care of _themselves_ when they have others to do it so dutifully.


----------



## Robsia

SomedayDig said:


> My opinion is that its status quo. It would take a considerable amount of energy to actually leave and make a go of it on his own. As of now, YOU get to take care of things like the kids and whatnot. If he were to leave, well - he'd have to do EVERYTHING for himself. Cooking, cleaning to toilet, laundry...that myriad of stuff that needs doing.
> 
> And sometimes, selfish people can't be bothered with having to actually take care of _themselves_ when they have others to do it so dutifully.


But he does all that already. I left him. He lives in his house, I live in mine. He's even agreed with me that we are not ready to move back in together yet. He likes his own space.

Why would he still then want to see me, spend time with me and say he wants to work on the marriage?


----------



## SomedayDig

Guilt?

All I'm trying to say is this: If I had a friend who I had to call on all the time, who never called me...who never initiated anything, wouldn't you think that was kind of a lopsided relationship? I mean, that's happened to me before. I did all of the work to keep the friendship up and the guy just coasted, enjoying that I'd come over to hang out at his place...that I would call to see how HE was doing. That I'd try to find a movie to go see or a place to go hang for dinner and drinks.

Yeah. That dude and I are not friends any longer.

He did ZERO work for our friendship. 

He was purely dependent on me calling and figuring out what kind of fun we were gonna have. And for a long time I rolled with it just saying, "Well, that's just how Dave is". Then I woke up one morning and said "F-ck that. Jim wants to go ride the Harley's up in the mountains and he called me to see if I wanted to go". To this day (well...at least til we move on Friday), Jim and I still get together for an ocassional ride up in the mountains. We give each other a call or text every couple weeks. I haven't heard from Dave since I stopped calling in '09.

Dave and Big Mac have a lot in common, methinks.


----------



## Robsia

I don't think he is as bad as Dave.

It seems to go in waves. For the last few weeks, he HAS been doing all the work. He has arranged dates, suggested we go places, bought tickets for special events, every time we sign off FT, if we're not seeing each other the next day, HE will say "So, same time again tomorrow" instead of making me do it. Every time (except last night).

I've done some stuff - usually arranging family events, but he has done the majority of the running with regard to our relationship.

Maybe he just gets burned out every now and again. It's not an excuse when I say he is working hard at the moment. He's started a new contract and they have him working pretty much every day. He's supposed to be doing 9-5, working from home, but I know he starts pretty much at 7am, and he deals with emails and phone calls throughout the evening, even on weekends when we are together, he gets phone calls and texts about urgent stuff he has to deal with NOW. So I do need to cut him some slack in some ways. He's working harder than I've ever known him to, and he was never lazy.

There are certainly issues we need to sort out, the sex thing, and trying to make him understand that a) my needs are not going to be the same as his and that b) it's not selfish of me to expect my needs to be met. And I will try to meet his in return - if I knew what they were.

When it's good, it's great.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Robsia said:


> I don't think he is as bad as Dave.
> 
> It seems to go in waves. For the last few weeks, he HAS been doing all the work. He has arranged dates, suggested we go places, bought tickets for special events, every time we sign off FT, if we're not seeing each other the next day, HE will say "So, same time again tomorrow" instead of making me do it. Every time (except last night).
> 
> I've done some stuff - usually arranging family events, but he has done the majority of the running with regard to our relationship.
> 
> Maybe he just gets burned out every now and again. It's not an excuse when I say he is working hard at the moment. He's started a new contract and they have him working pretty much every day. He's supposed to be doing 9-5, working from home, but I know he starts pretty much at 7am, and he deals with emails and phone calls throughout the evening, even on weekends when we are together, he gets phone calls and texts about urgent stuff he has to deal with NOW. So I do need to cut him some slack in some ways. He's working harder than I've ever known him to, and he was never lazy.
> 
> There are certainly issues we need to sort out, the sex thing, and trying to make him understand that a) my needs are not going to be the same as his and that b) it's not selfish of me to expect my needs to be met. And I will try to meet his in return - if I knew what they were.
> 
> When it's good, it's great.


No offense Robsia but you came to the thread very upset and citing that this is an ongoing problem. It's much like the problem of him STILL not giving you all the details and you having to ferret them out.

When those of us who have been there, done it (both successfully and not) point out that these are bad signs, you jump to the defense.

I'm going to avoid the frustrating task of giving advice to someone who will never truly absorb it and consider it and bow out from your posts.

I truly wish you both the best and more than that, the courage to seek it.


----------



## SomedayDig

Here...how 'bout we try it this way.

Hey, BigMac - what's the deal? You had an affair and we all know what great sex is to be had in an affair! No wife, no kids, no bills...just a partner who is there to bang and enjoy. I can honestly see the draw!

So, Robsia finds out and kills your fairy tale fantasy land. I'm sure you grumbled about it inside and out. Had to suck having that crash down on your head, eh? Yet, here we are in the Reconciliation thread. A thread where couples who are _actively_ working on reconciliation come to get advice or give thoughts on the process.

Robsia writes that she's tried like hell to get you interested sexually. I give her kudos for actually being explicit in how hard she's tried (pardon the pun). That ain't f'ng easy to do.

My wife, Regret214, had a FIVE YEAR long affair. Within days of me catching her and our work toward reconciliation we were f'ng like bunnies. We're in our *40's*!! We ain't young. We went at it like that for about 6 months until it tapered down to a few times a week. 

Why?

Cuz my wife really IS trying to reconcile our marriage. She's totally into righting what she so haphazardly took for granted and how stupid of a f'ng life she lead for so long. She is remorseful and hates what she did and she puts every f'ng effort every f'ng day into letting me see how much she loves me...and how stupid her affair was.

If I put my hand on her ass or whatever, she responds. Why? Cuz she's my f'ng wife, man.

Your wife does similar and you shuck it off? What the f-ck is wrong with THAT picture, man?

What's your deal? No more pretending. No more hiding. She ain't your Mum. She's your WIFE.

Unless you don't want her as your wife and in that case you need to be a f'ng man and say so.


----------



## SomedayDig

Robsia said:


> I don't think he is as bad as Dave.


I'm not in your home...not around you. However, the way you describe him and your interaction is why I made the correlation with Dave. When standing outside the forrest you'd be amazed at how many trees you can see.

I've gotta get ready to move 1300 miles on Friday. I gotta go now.

I hope you find peace.


----------



## russell28

Good luck with the move Dig... Stay cool.. it's hot out there.


----------



## CEL

Robsia said:


> So, then why would he keep hanging around? If he didn't want to be in the marriage any more, he got what he wanted, I left. I moved out and took my bothersome kids with me.
> 
> What reason could someone who didn't want to be in a marriage any more have for continuing to hang around a wife who has left him?
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> CEL - just to let you know I have read your post - but I know what his responses will be to every single one of your points. He doesn't read books. Anything I do for him in bed stands alone, it is my choice to do it, and should not be linked to any expectation of anything in return on his part, be it sexual satisfaction or reading books etc.
> 
> Also, technically we are in MC, but they have decided they cannot see us as a couple until a) he has finished this Equal Partnership course (18 weeks plus waiting list) and b) I have my ASD diagnosis (could be months)
> 
> I despair.
> 
> Ironically, his first wife had an even lower drive than he had. Birthdays, Christmas and anniversaries, from what he says. I thought he'd be quite happy to have a wife who was the opposite. I can handle once a week. I'd like more, but he is working very hard at the moment, and we really only see each other at weekends. But then when I only get it once a week, and then I don't even get that, and I can't even get him to see why this is a problem for me, and I'm made to feel like I have a problem or I'm selfish for wanting to have sex with my husband, I struggle to know what to do.


My guess is that it is a combination of the fact that he does live you but just as a mom and wife not do much lover. This happens pretty frequently in marriages usually due to not enough lover time and to much family time. As for the sex it could be the stress of the job that us affecting it. Even if that is the case the way you are approaching it is detrimental to your happiness.

1. You are willing to have the mind set that one of your needs with be barely satisfied. You say you are okay with 1 a week that is not being HAPPY.

2. Going through a week to have all your hopes on one day so that you can get what you need is a recipe for misery. To much can go wrong.

3. You seem to be going into this already reconciled to the fact that you will have to compromise big time. So let's put this in perspective you don't go into a negotiation giving ground. Instead you inflate what you want so that as you talk to get what you need. You are doing it backwards what this means is that not only will you not get what you want you will get less than you NEED.

4. So is porn an issue? Does he masturbate during the week? How was sex during his affairs did you get it once a week while the OW where getting it as well? How long married straight vanilla?


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## warlock07

Why do you want to be with him ? Are they the right reasons ? or is it because you cannot take rejection ?


----------



## warlock07

> So, then why would he keep hanging around?





> It seems to go in waves. For the last few weeks, he HAS been doing all the work. He has arranged dates, suggested we go places, bought tickets for special events, every time we sign off FT, if we're not seeing each other the next day, HE will say "So, same time again tomorrow" instead of making me do it. Every time (except last night).


Maybe you are not a sh*tty person to hang around with ? You are probably nice to him.


----------



## EI

Robsia, I'm trying really hard to avoid the triggers that this thread brings, so I'll post this and then, I swear, I'm logging off. 

I feel as though I have been posting on TAM long enough that anyone who has read my story also knows where my heart is and what kind of person I am. So, I am going to simply speak freely. Often times, I have avoided speaking so openly because B1 was on TAM, too, and although there is nothing that I'm going to say that he doesn't already know, I always chose my words carefully so as not to cause him any more pain than he had already suffered due to my infidelity. But, he isn't reading TAM, anymore and when he does, he doesn't go back and catch up. 

So here goes........... When I first posted on TAM a year ago June, B1 and I were just about 2 1/2 weeks past D-Day. My original thread is still on here. I was anything but a remorseful WS. I was bitter, angry, defensive and defiant. Actually, at times, I could barely contain my fury. I tried (likely unsuccessfully) to contain my rage on TAM, but not at home towards B1. I truly blamed him for everything from our miserable marriage to my decision to lie to, deceive and betray him, and our children, by having an affair. If there was anything else that I was angry about, I blamed him for that, too. And, I truly believed every word of that. I felt like my EA/PA was completely justified. At the time, neither of us were even sure that we wanted to reconcile or that a reconciliation was possible even if we did want to try. I openly admitted that I was no longer in love with him and that my heart was elsewhere. And, it truly was. This didn't resolve itself overnight. It has taken a lot of time and a tremendous amount of effort from both of us to repair our marriage and rekindle the love that we once had, as well as building an even stronger foundation of love, trust and support. We both had to learn to love, trust and lean on one another, again. 

That was over a year ago. We are both in a very different place, now, and I can say, without hesitation, that I am madly, deeply and passionately in love with him as I have never been before in all of our 29 years of marriage and 32 years together. And, he feels the same way about me. You need not take my word, as he has spoken similar words, himself, many times.

My long story, longer, wraps up like this...... In the midst of all of 
my anger, rage, defensiveness and defiance..... in the midst of not even knowing it we would reconcile, in the midst of not being in love with him, at the time, and believing that I was in love with another, I still treated B1 with more kindness, compassion, courtesy and tenderness than Big Mac shows you. I simply could not watch someone that I had once loved so much suffer the way he was suffering and then treat him with such contempt and disregard. It was in our desire to comfort one another that we found our compassion, then our passion and then our love. 

When you're hurting, he turns away from you. He even becomes punitive by not responding. When you tell him what your very normal and realistic needs are, he blatantly disregards them. He refuses to do anything that HE doesn't want to do. That isn't love. It almost sounds like contempt. Even in my initial feelings of contempt for B1, I didn't want to hurt him further. It has been months since your initial D-Day. Big Mac isn't even remotely attempting to make amends to you and he has no intention of trying to meet your most basic needs when they conflict with his. Do you think that those OW had to beg, plead and demand that he give them compassion, affection and sex?

I know this isn't my typical response, and for that, Robsia, I am so sorry. But, what good am I, if I don't use what I learned, from my own selfish choices, to try to help someone else? You cannot fix your marriage all by yourself. It isn't going to get better than this. If he were truly committed to repairing your marriage, he would be giving you so much more than he is. I don't even think he's sorry that he hurt you. Because, he continues to hurt you, still.

Reconciliation isn't always about reconciling a marriage. Sometimes, it's about reconciling yourself to the reality that's in front of you. 

I wish you and your girls all the best. I think you deserve better than what Big Mac is offering.


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> B1 will run for cover and hide in the closet and get all sheepish when I say,
> *B1 and EI are heroes of the TAM*.
> There are others but none as open and as uplifting.
> 
> YES you both are heroes because you both have what EI mentioned in another post (courage, honor). B1 has had the courage to admit his faults and then change them for the better. B1 has honored his marriage and is going to add to that honor next year at their 30th.
> 
> EI has done the same but I have to mention that EI is an addict. She cannot help but help everyone she can; she is such a compassionate woman, a living sacrifice!
> 
> OK, B1 I am through with this post you can come out of the closet now





soulpotato said:


> :iagree: Damn, but you are so much more eloquent than I am! You say in one paragraph what it takes me weeks and thousands of words to _attempt_ to say, LOL! (Plus blundering my way through the whole time, so no one knows what I am actually trying to say!)
> 
> You are so full of wisdom and compassion. Mr Blunt and others have it right when they talk about the virtues that you and B1 possess. But you are faaarrr too modest about your contributions. Modesty is definitely one of your good points, of course, but.  You have been one of the few people to reach out to me and really engage me on TAM, and seem to have ESP to know when people are drowning and really need a hand. You are a splendid person, and I wish more people could be like you.



You're both too kind and you know that it is extremely humbling, if not difficult, for me to be on the receiving end of this kind of blatant show of........ praise.  So, although, I hesitate to "quote it," thus bringing attention to it, again, I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge your kind words.

Thank you very much for the lovely words and encouragement. They are very much appreciated. Although, this not something that I ever imagined that I would be "praised" for doing well. It remains my greatest regret.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Robsia, just a thought -

Wasn't there some suggestion at one point in the assessment process for him that he might be suffering from depression? The naughty/forbidden fruit factor of an affair gets hormones going that can counteract that, and chemically it's like a being on a temporary antidepressant. When that's gone, and there's depression involved - even a mild depression - it's important to remember that libido issues are often a symptom of depression.

It's entirely possible that if he's having problems in this regard, that he may feel "pressure to perform" - and once a week, while that's not very frequent for most men, may in fact feel like it's coming around TOO often for someone who is depressed. It might be something that's too embarrassing for him, as a man, to admit even to himself. If he's depressed and doesn't acknowledge that part of it, how would he know why weekly is too often now, when the frisky affair sex was no problem?


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## SomedayDig

I'm an ass, I know this...and while your words are nice and all Hopefulgirl, they are nothing but an excuse.

He needs no excuse.

He needs to be a f'ng man and own up to what he wants out of life.

(going back to my lunch break pizza now! )


----------



## Robsia

I barely know where to start. Firstly, thank you to everyone who has responded. I know it must be frustrating when something looks like a cut and dried situation from the outside, but remember than when we come to the forum upset, we always tend to over-dramatise, then when we calm down a bit and look at the situation with more perspective, other factors come into play. Or maybe that's just me, I don't know. Yes, the sex thing has been an issue for a while, but when you have differing drives, doesn't one always have to compromise? And if I feel personally rejected when he doesn't want to have sex, isn't that my problem to deal with? It's the first thing listed on here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/divorce-busting/201001/9-tips-the-spouse-higher-sex-drive

Secondly, my husband is far from being a perfect man, I know that, and so does he. He has a LOT of issues that he needs to deal with. We are frustrated in many ways because of the time it has taken to deal with them. But he is willing to try, and he has tried. I promised that I would stick by him if he got help for his anger issues - and he is! He has tried very hard in so many ways, but this weekend we had a relapse because instead of telling me he was too tired for sex, he fell asleep virtually the second he got into bed. Is this something we need to address - absolutely! Am I going to walk away now because of it - no, I'm not. 

I don't know if these things are solvable long-term, but I do know that the man I see today has changed unrecognisably from the man I left a year ago. If he can come so far in that time, almost on his own, then there is hope.

SomedayDig - I have copied your post and sent it to him. Good luck with the move 



> You seem to be going into this already reconciled to the fact that you will have to compromise big time. So let's put this in perspective you don't go into a negotiation giving ground. Instead you inflate what you want so that as you talk to get what you need. You are doing it backwards what this means is that not only will you not get what you want you will get less than you NEED.


I was always rubbish at this type of bartering. I'm a WYSIWYG type of girl. Maybe that's part of the Aspie thing - related to the unrelenting honesty - I don't know. But I lay my cards on the table. I ask for what I want - nothing more and nothing less. Honesty is important.



> 4. So is porn an issue? Does he masturbate during the week? How was sex during his affairs did you get it once a week while the OW where getting it as well? How long married straight vanilla?


It's not an issue. We both use porn, always have. Sometimes apart, sometimes together. Sometimes he masturbates during the week, sometimes not. I can't honestly remember how frequent sex was during his As. I know it dropped off, but not to nothing. Maybe every other weekend. We were never what you'd call 'straight vanilla'! He used to be, but I like it spicy and when he met me, he had no choice but to go along. He seemed to enjoy it, although recently he did tell me, not in a mean way, but when we were having a frank discussion about the issues of our past, that when he found out what I liked, he was shocked and it did cause him to lose some respect for me. Apparently, good girls don't like what I like.



> Why do you want to be with him ? Are they the right reasons ? or is it because you cannot take rejection ?


That's the million dollar question. Is it because I'm clinging onto something that is sometimes good? Maybe I can't give out rejection. Not long after I left him last summer when we were considering our future, I compared our marriage to a dying relative. You know they're on their last legs, but it hurts too much to pull the plug. Our marriage keeps taking breaths, it keeps showing signs of life. If I end it, then I'm a murderer.

EI - your post truly made me cry, I am so sorry to be the cause of any triggers for you. This more than anything else, is the thing I struggle with - that when I need him the most, he pulls away from me. I have an ASD - we are famous for lack of empathy, yet even I know that when someone you care about is is hurting, your natural instinct should be to comfort them, to try to make them feel better. This, if nothing else, is what will kill our marriage. I can never be with someone who will not comfort me when I am suffering. That reminds me; once when we were talking about our differing needs (I think about the disparate sex drives), he said something like "So you expect me to meet your needs even if they are to the detriment of my own. Do you know how selfish that makes you sound?" I was blown away.

hopefulgirl - since that initial suggestion by his doctor, no one has suggested depression since then. Our MC suggested Fractured Personality Disorder. He has a psychiatrist appt on 6th August.


----------



## CEL

You ask two important questions. 

1. When drives are different does not one have to compromise? No they don't if you mean going without, in todays world there are so many ways to get SF with little time that there is NO reason unless medical for going without.

2. You feel rejected when he well rejects you and this us your problem. No it is not you feel rejected because he rejects you. It is an honest feeling and valid. How are you supposed to feel? Good when your spouse rejects your advances? Good when a subject you have brought over and over as something you desperately need is yet again playing second fiddle? I think you know the answer. You are hurt it is okay to be hurt.

Now let's talk negotiation. Ask for what you want like 2 or 3 times a week then settle for 2. You have read the books you know the importance of having your needs met if they are not then not only are you unhappy but the resentment will bleed into other areas poisoning the marriage. You already had a taste of this you had your hopes up and they were killed you felt resentment and lashed out. Now if you had already had SF that week you would of driven on with no problems. When you have a need you should have the expectation that your spouse will meet it. This is not far fetched it is basic. And you know this like I said you have read the books and it is common sense.

Now let's talk about his masturbation if he is not putting out for you as much as you want but still masturbating then that is a problem. That should only be happening if he is the one with an increased drive. If he is not into PIV then hell masturbate together add fun things to it. If you need ideas I am more than willing to provide.


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia said:


> I need to take the conversation down to doing the dirty for a while - yes, it's all about sex and it's going to be long.
> 
> We had a problem last night. During our marriage we always had a disparate sex drive - mine is higher than his, unusually. Quite often during our marriage I would initiate sex, only for him to lie there in bed like a lump of stone, totally ignoring my advances. Eventually I would get upset and withdraw, which would lead to an argument. He didn't always reject me, but it was more often than not. Conversely, there was only ONE occasion during our entire relationship when I rejected him - only because it was late, I was dog-tired, I had a headache and I had to be up early in the morning. Every other time he has initiated sex, I have enthusastically gone along with it. Every single time.
> 
> Fast forward to D-day 2 in May this year. I decided I was not going to initiate sex again. I was going to let him take the lead. I told him this, that I needed him to be more forthright in the bedroom, that I was tired of always being the aggressor, and that *I needed him to be more caveman*. I had also examined my feelings as to why I felt rejected and upset when he didn't want to have sex and I said that if he didn't feel like sex, to tell me, so there was no expectation. This seemed to work.
> 
> He has been very busy with work for the last few weeks but he coems round on Fridays and Saturdays. So pretty much every Friday, he has said something like "It's been a long day, is it ok if we just go to sleep?" and I have not been upset - which is real progress for me. Of course I understand that when you're tired, you're not always in the mood - which is okay. So I was happy, that we had established that if he just told me in advance, there was no expectation on my part, and no need for me to feel upset. But then on Saturdays, when he hadn't been working and wasn't tired, we would generally have sex, and it was good. I felt he was really listening to me. He was being more aggressive, more caveman, and it was great.
> 
> So, now we come to this weekend. Friday was as usual - tired, no sex. But then Saturday we went upstairs. He didn't say anything about just going to sleep, so I went to bed in my underwear, which is our tacit signal for me being interested - otherwise I put my nightwear on. Next thing I know he's lying there snoring away. I get upset. I leap out of bed, throw my pjs on and yank the light off then I lie there and seethe. After a while he wakes up and, I know this was wrong, but *I start an argument. I end up accusing him of having an affair again, because the last time he lost interest in sex was when he was getting it elsewhere. He just basically ignored me. Didn't even deny it, or tell me I was being daft, let alone try to reassure me*.
> 
> We argued back and forth and ended up talking about expectations. he told me that my default expectation when we go to bed should be "no sex" so I said if we were going to end up in a sexless marriage, then we may as well divorce.
> 
> Eventually we slept, but I didn't sleep well. He slept till gone noon and when he eventually got up, we small-talked for about an hour then took ourselves to the hall so we could talk out of earshot of DD2.
> 
> Now, I am NOT expecting that he should be willing to have sex whenever I want it, which would be an unreasonable expectation, but I reiterated the idea of him telling me if he wasn't in the mood, then I wouldn't have any expectation. He told me I shouldn't have an expectation of sex anyway and that I was being unreasonable. He said that the onus should not be on him to tell me that he doesn't want to have sex. Now, I don't think it's unreasonable that there is an expectation of sex within a marriage. We are both still relatively young (I'm 40, he's 44), we are in good health, so *on a Saturday night, not too tired, not ill, and no reason to get up early in the morning, why should I not have an expectation of sex?*
> 
> For me, sex is so much more than the physical, it is the ultimate expression of love. When we have sex, I feel cherished, loved, cared for, wanted, desired, safe. When we don't have sex, I feel unloved, unwanted, undesirable. I tried to explain this to him but his only response was that he didn't feel that way, therefore I shouldn't either.
> 
> I reminded him that I wasn't expecting him to have sex whenever I wanted to, but that a compromise would be that he simply tell me, then I have no expectation and I'm not upset. He doesn't see why he should. I should alter MY expectations so that my default position is that of "no sex" like his is. We just ended up going round in circles and I ended up getting upset and telling him to leave.
> 
> *He also NEVER comforts me or reassures me when I am upse**t*, which is a separate issue. he says that when I have upset HIM, he doesn't want me to comfort him, so he doesn't see why he should comfort me when I am upset. He says this despite the fact that I've tried to explain my needs. He refuses to accept that my needs might be different from his.


Robsia, I read the Michele Wiener-Davis article. Very good stuff!

I have some more thoughts on this subject. He may not have depression, but your husband clearly has a lower sex drive than you do, for some reason. Maybe there's a medical/chemical issue, maybe not. But there's a major difference in your sex drives, and as Michele noted, and as you are aware, you must work on NOT taking this personally because that is NOT what this is about. Why would he be doing all this anger management and MC stuff if he didn't want to work things out with you, if he didn't love you? 

As for needing him to be more caveman, is that really a need? Is it a dealbreaker? Most women do the cooking in a couple. But a few women are married to famous male chefs, and I bet those women let the men take over the kitchens at home. That's an unusual role reversal, but so what? I agree that if he masturbates at his home alone it's not going to help the couple's sex life, and that's worth talking about. But wouldn't it be OK if you both initiated sex? Do you have to put that all onto him, when he's obviously not the one who wants it the most? I think it might be a relief to him if you let him know you don't expect him to be the caveman all the time - because that's not who he is. As Michele said, he may give you a gift sometimes - do something that's not really what he truly desires, but he'll do it FOR you. But to ask it of him all the time - maybe that's asking too much?

When you started the argument, I think it was an example of your taking this personally. Accusing him of having another affair was a leap that went pretty far. When he just sat there, dumbfounded, not even denying it, I can sort of understand why. He didn't know what hit him. The situation escalated to a fever pitch pretty fast, and all because he wasn't in the mood. 

The not comforting you part is problematic, because you say he "never" does it. In the heat of an argument, one wouldn't expect it, really. But in OTHER situations, like when you're not fighting, but if you're calmly discussing something and you start crying, does he not even put an arm around you? If not, THAT'S a serious problem, and THAT is something I'd be very worried about for you. NOT EVER? If you asked him to put an arm around you in such a situation, would he? If you're upset with HIM, as in a big fight, I get it - a lot of people can't calm themselves enough to be compassionate in those situations. But if he's already calm, he SHOULD know how to comfort you - he really doesn't? Ouch. Do you want to try to teach him?

As for the expectation of sex on Saturday night, that may be true for other people but you know it's not something HE wants every Saturday night. That being the case, I would suggest rereading Michele's article and trying some of her approaches because the ones you've been using have not worked. She has some good ideas! I hope one or two of them will be helpful to you.


----------



## bfree

Robsia,

You have been getting great advice and help but I have just one question for you. Mac doesn't like to perform oral sex on you and his sex drive is lower than yours. So you are the one that has to do all the compromising? What exactly is he willing to do in order to satisfy you? If I couldn't have sex with my wife in the traditional sense I would find a way to satisfy her in other ways. I have fingers, a tongue and would use those. Heck if my jaw was wired shut and my fingers were all broken I would use my toes or find another way. Its all about wanting to make your partner feel good isn't it? So does he want to make you feel good or not? That is the question.


----------



## TCSRedhead

hopefulgirl said:


> Robsia, I read the Michele Wiener-Davis article. Very good stuff!
> 
> I have some more thoughts on this subject. He may not have depression, but your husband clearly has a lower sex drive than you do, for some reason. Maybe there's a medical/chemical issue, maybe not. But there's a major difference in your sex drives, and as Michele noted, and as you are aware, you must work on NOT taking this personally because that is NOT what this is about. Why would he be doing all this anger management and MC stuff if he didn't want to work things out with you, if he didn't love you?
> 
> As for needing him to be more caveman, is that really a need? Is it a dealbreaker? Most women do the cooking in a couple. But a few women are married to famous male chefs, and I bet those women let the men take over the kitchens at home. That's an unusual role reversal, but so what? I agree that if he masturbates at his home alone it's not going to help the couple's sex life, and that's worth talking about. But wouldn't it be OK if you both initiated sex? Do you have to put that all onto him, when he's obviously not the one who wants it the most? I think it might be a relief to him if you let him know you don't expect him to be the caveman all the time - because that's not who he is. As Michele said, he may give you a gift sometimes - do something that's not really what he truly desires, but he'll do it FOR you. But to ask it of him all the time - maybe that's asking too much?
> 
> When you started the argument, I think it was an example of your taking this personally. Accusing him of having another affair was a leap that went pretty far. When he just sat there, dumbfounded, not even denying it, I can sort of understand why. He didn't know what hit him. The situation escalated to a fever pitch pretty fast, and all because he wasn't in the mood.
> 
> The not comforting you part is problematic, because you say he "never" does it. In the heat of an argument, one wouldn't expect it, really. But in OTHER situations, like when you're not fighting, but if you're calmly discussing something and you start crying, does he not even put an arm around you? If not, THAT'S a serious problem, and THAT is something I'd be very worried about for you. NOT EVER? If you asked him to put an arm around you in such a situation, would he? If you're upset with HIM, as in a big fight, I get it - a lot of people can't calm themselves enough to be compassionate in those situations. But if he's already calm, he SHOULD know how to comfort you - he really doesn't? Ouch. Do you want to try to teach him?
> 
> As for the expectation of sex on Saturday night, that may be true for other people but you know it's not something HE wants every Saturday night. That being the case, I would suggest rereading Michele's article and trying some of her approaches because the ones you've been using have not worked. She has some good ideas! I hope one or two of them will be helpful to you.


Seriously? He has the drive and energy to seek out a sexual affair. He should now be putting that energy into deducing his WIFE. All this justification for his lack of effort is not helping the situation at all. 

As the WS, he should be jumping through hoops to meet her needs and win her back. Frankly, the lack of effort speaks volumes.


----------



## Maricha75

TCSRedhead said:


> Seriously? He has the drive and energy to seek out a sexual affair. He should now be putting that energy into deducing his WIFE. All this justification for his lack of effort is not helping the situation at all.
> 
> As the WS, he should be jumping through hoops to meet her needs and win her back. Frankly, the lack of effort speaks volumes.


Add to that, hopefulgirl, you also said " Accusing him of having another affair was a leap that went pretty far.".... No, it really isn't that big a leap. They don't live together. He's only there on the weekends. And he doesn't want sex when he's there. This is an ongoing problem. In that situation, I would seriously be wondering that myself! But, as Red pointed out, Mac ought to be bending over backwards trying to show her this is what he wants. But he's not. He's doing the opposite. He's the one who cheated. He's the one who should be proving himself. He's not. And, wondering, or even voicing that sentiment, is valid.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By EI
> Although, this not something that I ever imagined that I would be "praised" for doing well. It remains my greatest regret.



You and B1 are being praised because you both have been hit with a NUKE, the mother of all marriage busters, and you both have rebounded with courage, honor, and compassion. 

You both had you AZZ knocked to the ground and you both got up and are kicking AZZ!
I love a Rocky and a Rocketta

OK EI you can come out from under your bed, I am through.


----------



## Robsia

hopefulgirl said:


> As for needing him to be more caveman, is that really a need? Is it a dealbreaker? ... But wouldn't it be OK if you both initiated sex? Do you have to put that all onto him, when he's obviously not the one who wants it the most? I think it might be a relief to him if you let him know you don't expect him to be the caveman all the time - because that's not who he is. As Michele said, he may give you a gift sometimes - do something that's not really what he truly desires, but he'll do it FOR you. But to ask it of him all the time - maybe that's asking too much?


For us BOTH to be initiating sex, then that would involve HIM doing it sometimes also, yes? Problem was, that he wasn't. Our issue arose because I was doing all the initiating and I hated it. I hated being rejected. I want to feel wanted. I want to feel desired. I want to feel like my husband actually finds me sexually attractive, especially now, after I found out he was putting it about. Yes, I NEED him to be more caveman. 




> The not comforting you part is problematic, because you say he "never" does it. In the heat of an argument, one wouldn't expect it, really. But in OTHER situations, like when you're not fighting, but if you're calmly discussing something and you start crying, does he not even put an arm around you? If not, THAT'S a serious problem, and THAT is something I'd be very worried about for you. NOT EVER? If you asked him to put an arm around you in such a situation, would he? If you're upset with HIM, as in a big fight, I get it - a lot of people can't calm themselves enough to be compassionate in those situations. But if he's already calm, he SHOULD know how to comfort you - he really doesn't? Ouch. Do you want to try to teach him?


I don't cry when we talk calmly. Generally, I only need comforting when he has upset me. I don't get upset any other time. And no, he never comforts me under those circumstances. It generally goes like this:
HIM "If you upset me, then I don't want you anywhere near me. So, therefore, why would you expect me to comfort you when I am the one who has upset you?"

ME "Please, I really need a hug right now."

HIM "No."



> As for the expectation of sex on Saturday night, that may be true for other people but you know it's not something HE wants every Saturday night. That being the case, I would suggest rereading Michele's article and trying some of her approaches because the ones you've been using have not worked. She has some good ideas! I hope one or two of them will be helpful to you.


So basically, I just have to suck it up and accept the fact that my husband doesn't want me. Nope, sorry, ain't gonna happen. I will not be in a marriage where that is the norm.


----------



## Robsia

bfree said:


> Robsia,
> 
> You have been getting great advice and help but I have just one question for you. Mac doesn't like to perform oral sex on you and his sex drive is lower than yours. So you are the one that has to do all the compromising? What exactly is he willing to do in order to satisfy you? If I couldn't have sex with my wife in the traditional sense I would find a way to satisfy her in other ways. I have fingers, a tongue and would use those. Heck if my jaw was wired shut and my fingers were all broken I would use my toes or find another way. Its all about wanting to make your partner feel good isn't it? So does he want to make you feel good or not? That is the question.


It's a good question - unfortunately, I don't have the answer. We only have sex when he wants to. The rest of the time it's Mr Buzzy - which satisfies the physical itch, but not the emotional need. In fact it makes it worse, because it reinforces the fact that I'm flying solo so much of the time.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Robsia, I'm so sorry. I was hoping that it WASN'T a matter of his not "wanting" you. I was thinking along the lines of depression, low testosterone, some other psychological or medical issue - something that he was "self-medicating" by getting some "strange." Unfortunately, affair sex has that forbidden element, danger adding to the thrill, and the naughtiness of it all: affair sex becomes addictive BECAUSE of the rush of chemicals that make it something extra-ordinary (as if we BS's are "ordinary"). If he was having manliness "issues," I was thinking his turning toward dating sites might have been a sick way to try and "fix" his problem.

But you are there - you are the best judge of what's really going on. His refusing to hug you is just awful. Maybe he HAS been just turning away from you, and that's HIS loss.

Again, I'm so sorry.


----------



## CEL

Robsia said:


> It's a good question - unfortunately, I don't have the answer. We only have sex when he wants to. The rest of the time it's Mr Buzzy - which satisfies the physical itch, but not the emotional need. In fact it makes it worse, because it reinforces the fact that I'm flying solo so much of the time.


Been there done that hell that was YEARS of my life. Just no buzzy LOL. Sorry you are at that spot I do now how much that hurts.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Hello everyone, deleted my thread for legal issues but I'm still around. Decided to go on the cruise and we're already packed for Thursday. Want to get away from all this affair crap for the duration of the vacation and that means no TAM as well. I'll be back on when we return.

Her family left the for Jersey on Saturday and it is good to finally be alone in the house. With them gone desire for her went up like crazy for a day or two and we were together whenever and wherever in the house, *FINALLY*. W is not doing the heavy lifting yet but she is getting there, still a bit needy and insecure. On the 4th she went out on her own and set most of our neighbors straight and she lost some friends over that. The keylogger on her laptop shows she has been Google searching 'how to make it up to your husband after cheating', 'how to regain my husband's trust' and she has also been on SurvivingInfidelity.com. 

Yes I'm still spying on her. And probably won't stop for a long while...if ever. I'll try to only use my powers for good.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> You're both too kind and you know that it is extremely humbling, if not difficult, for me to be on the receiving end of this kind of blatant show of........ praise.  So, although, I hesitate to "quote it," thus bringing attention to it, again, I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge your kind words.
> 
> Thank you very much for the lovely words and encouragement. They are very much appreciated. Although, this not something that I ever imagined that I would be "praised" for doing well. It remains my greatest regret.


Personally, I think both you and B1 are full of cra*p and I hope tater bugs get your spuds.!! If you're interested, I have a recipe for schmaltz you might like. Sorry to all , but the melodrama was getting so thick you could cut it with aknife. so I thought I would lighten up the mood a little.A Whole Lotta Rosie (lyrics) - YouTube


----------



## Acabado

Refuse to be played said:


> Hello everyone, deleted my thread for legal issues but I'm still around. Decided to go on the cruise and we're already packed for Thursday. Want to get away from all this affair crap for the duration of the vacation and that means no TAM as well. I'll be back on when we return.
> 
> Her family left the for Jersey on Saturday and it is good to finally be alone in the house. With them gone desire for her went up like crazy for a day or two and we were together whenever and wherever in the house, *FINALLY*. W is not doing the heavy lifting yet but she is getting there, still a bit needy and insecure. On the 4th she went out on her own and set most of our neighbors straight and she lost some friends over that. The keylogger on her laptop shows she has been Google searching 'how to make it up to your husband after cheating', 'how to regain my husband's trust' and she has also been on SurvivingInfidelity.com.
> 
> Yes I'm still spying on her. And probably won't stop for a long while...if ever. I'll try to only use my powers for good.


This a great post man. Glad to hear she's reaching out for help and advice.
Enjoy the vacations. Keep... bonding?


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## calvin

I've really cut back on my time on Tams,its done me a lot of good.
I still think about her four month EA with the ex con ex bf but not nearly as much.
Some days it does'nt even cross my mind,when it does its maybe for a few minutes.
Going camping next week with the fam,I need to break down and get a small camper.
No electricity,no nothing.I have plenty of gear and I'll bring my guns.
A few years ago I got into it with a pack of Coyotes,fought them off with a five ft hot dog fork,it was fun.
Still praying and thinking about you guys on here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

I think for us it's not so much the lack of sex - although that is an issue - it's more the lack of empathy. I mean, Saturday night he was tired, fair enough. But if when he realised I was upset, if he'd just said something like "Sorry, baby, I'm exhausted. Of course you're sexy and I still want you," then kissed me and snuggled for a while, that would have been okay. But it's like he switches off as soon as he detects any hint that I need him to reassure me.

I just don't understand why he can't bring himself to do that for me. We texted briefly last night but I don't think he's ready to listen to me yet.

I'm seeing our MC tonight. I'll bring it up.


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## jupiter13

Wish I had guns Darn Coyote came right up to within 20 feet while I'm talking to my chicken and snatched her. It didn't even flinch as I was screaming at it. Came back and got the rest. No more chickens..... You go get one of the coyotes for me...


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## Rookie4

I have the perfect coyote medicine in my gun safe. Dr. 308. It will kill the bastards in the next county.


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## jupiter13

I have female hunting dog now that hates them. Problem is she is going 5 miles down river to hunt them down taking the other two males with her. Leaves the house open for them to come around. So I got another dog. He's a 15 lb. yaper I call First Alert, ain't nothing coming around here he don't let me know about. Including people too.


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## calvin

I'll have my Beagle with me,dumb dog is fearless.
Gonna bring my 4-10,I'll leave the other guns at home.
Time for my boy to learn how to shoot.
We have also ran across some men on our trips that were anything but friendly,worse
Than the damn coyotes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

jupiter13 said:


> I have female hunting dog now that hates them. Problem is she is going 5 miles down river to hunt them down taking the other two males with her. Leaves the house open for them to come around. So I got another dog. He's a 15 lb. yaper I call First Alert, ain't nothing coming around here he don't let me know about. Including people too.


 You know the old saying. "It's not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog". I've got a Jack Russell/ Staffordshire that will eat the a** out of any coyote that comes calling. The little bastard is like a canine chainsaw. He killed two full sized **** in the same fight. I've also got a big German Shepard but he's pretty lazy. He can kill an ox when he gets riled, but it takes so much to get him going, that the little guy usually has the problem solved by then.


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## Robsia

Interesting MC appt last night. Well, I should call it IC because she won't see us together till he has done this Equal partnering course.

I told her about what happened over the weekend. We talked briefly about the disparate sex drives and she told me that I wasn't compromising by only having sex when he wanted, I was capitulating. A compromise is when you both give way, not just one, and as he wasn't giving way at all, then it wasn't a compromise.

But when I told her about him not comforting me when I was upset, she jumped on that and asked "Is it can't or won't?" I said I didn't know. She said if it's won't, then it is quite deliberately cruel and is as abusive as if he were hitting me. If it's can't, then we have a different issue to deal with. I had been giving it some thought before I went in and I think it is a control issue. When he is in that frame of mind, the more I try to push him into doing what I want him to do, the more he resists me, as if by giving in to what I want he is losing power in the relationship. But I don't know if that's a conscious or a sub-conscious behaviour.

Problem is, there is nothing I can actually do about any of it.

I can't make him want me or desire me. I can't make him comfort me if he chooses not to. I can't make him change. I can't make him do anything. She says I need to work on accepting that and that any expectations I put on him are just me setting myself up for disappointment. Which is all very logical, but does that mean I have no choice but to sit back and be a passive passenger in a miserable marriage that's not a marriage in anything but legal terms, to a husband who doesn't want me, and doesn't care enough to want to comfort me when I am upset?

If there is no sign of change, then what is the point?

All I can do is make him aware of what my needs are. The choice to meet them, or not, is all his. And if he chooses not to, then I have to walk away.

She talked some more about this Fragmented Personality Disorder. it really is like he is two people. The nice one is wonderful, but the other is not. This weekend he has not been Mr. Nasty but more Mr. Uncaring. Which is an improvement, but still not pleasant.

He is not happy about what has been said on here but I know from experience that he will not listen to what I have to say until Mr. Uncaring has left the building. Mr. Nice is more willing to take my thoughts on board, but even he struggles with the whole idea of my needs being different to his. We have had a few text conversations but I said the other night that we can't talk until he is willing to listen to me, and that he was in control of that one. To which he replied "If it involves any advice from your forum, then no."

So now I can do nothing until he gives me some indication that he is willing to listen, otherwise I can talk till I'm blue in the face and the only effect it will have will be to annoy and upset myself.

The only hope that I'm clinging to right now is that this Equal Partnership course will have some effect. It's not just about anger management, but also about treating your partner with respect. I'm hoping that will cover caring for your partner's needs as well, basically Marriage 101 as someone mentioned.


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## Robsia

Double post.


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## Robsia

Well, just spent some time looking up this Fragmented Personality Disorder, which is another name for something called Dissociative Identity Disorder. Here are some of the most relevant things I found:



> Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a mental disorder characterized by at least two distinct and relatively enduring identities or dissociated personality states that alternately control a person's behavior, and is accompanied by memory impairment for important information not explained by ordinary forgetfulness.


He frequently tells me "You know I have a bad memory" which honestly, I always thought was an excuse. When we argue, when Mr. Nasty is dominant, then he forgets stuff we talked about, and then when Mr. Nice is back, I have to remind him of all the horrible things he said to me. I always thought it was more a case of he didn't want to remember, but maybe he actually doesn't.



> Ellert Nijenhuis and colleagues suggest a distinction between personalities responsible for day-to-day functioning (associated with blunted physiological responses and reduced emotional reactivity, referred to as the "apparently normal part of the personality" or ANP) and those emerging in survival situations (involving fight-or-flight responses, vivid traumatic memories and strong, painful emotions, the "emotional part of the personality" or EP).[17] "Structural dissociation of the personality" is used by van der Hart and colleagues to distinguish dissociation they attribute to traumatic or pathological causes, which in turn is divided into primary, secondary and tertiary dissociation. According to this hypothesis, primary dissociation involves one ANP and one EP, while secondary dissociation involves one ANP and several EPs and tertiary dissociation, which is unique to DID, is described as having several of each.


He definitely has a ANP (Mr. Nice) and an EP (Mr. Nasty). Shortly after we got married I actually started a blog which I title "I Married Two Men." His first wife used to describe him as Jekyll and Hyde.



> The symptoms of dissociative amnesia, dissociative fugue and depersonalization disorder are subsumed under DID diagnosis and are not diagnosed separately


I looked up these, particularly depersonalization disorder which is described as:



> feeling disconnected from one's physicality; feeling as though one is not completely occupying the body; not feeling in control of one's speech or physical movements; feeling detached from one's own thoughts or emotions; a sense of automation, going through the motions of life but not experiencing it or participating in it; loss of conviction with one's identity; feeling a disconnection from one's body; inability to accept one's reflection as one's own; difficulty relating oneself to reality and the environment; feeling as though one is in a dream; and out-of-body experiences.


He recently said to me that sometimes he feels as if he is not living in his own body, that he feels disconnected, and asked me if I ever felt that way. I answered that I hadn't. 

Apparently BPD is a common co-morbid disorder. A couple of months ago he came across descriptions of BPD and found himself strongly identifying with a lot of it.

So, while this is all supposition, he is seeing a psychiatrist at the beginning of August. 

I don't know what this will mean for us. Can someone with DID maintain a successful relationship. The prognosis is poor and the treatment unclear. Apparently "Even highly experienced therapists have few patients that achieve a unified identity."

The only thing I can think of to do right now is simply refuse to engage with him at all if Mr. Nasty is present.


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## Robsia

Sorry, I don't meant to take over the thread, but I wanted to share something I wrote three days after we came home form our honeymoon.

-----------

On the 30th July this year I married two men. Not intentionally. One of them is my lovely husband, G. He is everything I could want in a man - kind, thoughtful, caring, loving, intelligent, funny, charming, witty, an excellent conversationalist and a fantastic lover. I am so totally in love with this man you would not believe - I want to touch him all the time, kiss him, caress him - he makes me horny every time I see him. I am completely head over heels in love. He is my everything.

However, I also married Mr Grumpy. Mr Grumpy looks like G - exactly like G, but he looks at me through cold cold eyes with disdain and sometimes contempt, he barely speaks to me except for monosyllables and occasional *****y comments or insults when I do something he dislikes. Mr Grumpy provokes me to such rage I want to slap his stupid head off his neck and at times I actually hate him.

I did know of Mr Grumpy’s existence before I married G. I even bought him a special “Mr Grumpy” T-shirt to wear when Mr Grumpy is in residence.

Mr Grumpy usually only comes to stay when we have had a row, usually over something very minor, but he hangs around for SO LONG! Sometimes a day or more. I have tried everything to get him to leave sooner. I have tried jollying him along, I have tried ignoring him - then I get accused of not trying, I have tried talking about it - Mr Grumpy doesn’t do talking, I have cried - Mr Grumpy is unmoved and I think despises me even more for crying, I have got angry in return, especially at some of the nastier comments but this backfires as Mr Grumpy then feels fully justified in what he does and says because, “I am just as bad.”

I have talked to my husband about Mr Grumpy. Sometimes he says he hates him, and acknowledges that he is a “bad bastard”. Sometimes though, and this worries me, he says he likes Mr Grumpy and thinks he’s great. Nothing can hurt him, or touch him, he feels invincible when he is Mr Grumpy.

Before we got married, Mr Grumpy would only come occasionally, maybe once every couple of months. However, on our honeymoon, he came FOUR times in the space of two weeks. I began to seriously worry that my husband was one of those men who was all charming until they “caught” you and then once you had that ring, you were theirs and they didn’t have to try any more. I worry that the flashes I saw of Mr Grumpy beforehand were just his true self trying to break through and he was only just keeping it under control. Whilst I was sitting crying in the hotel toilet I thought, “How can I stay married to this man?” after just five days of marriage. I also began to seriously wonder if I wanted him to adopt my almost three year old daughter.

I don’t know how healthy it is for me to split them into two different people in my mind. However, G and Mr Grumpy are so totally different it really is like they are two separate people. And it is very very hard for me to accept that it is my husband that is saying and doing these things. So I don’t. It’s not G, it’s Mr Grumpy. G would never be like that - it’s Mr Grumpy. But then I wonder if by doing this, I am giving him permission almost to be Mr Grumpy, as if I don’t need to forgive G for being nasty, because it’s not him, if you see what I mean.

Even G has suggested of his own volition that maybe he should see someone about this - although Mr Grumpy would never agree to it.

The reason for this journal, is to keep a record of good days and bad days, to see how often Mr Grumpy comes to stay and what he does and says when he is here, as I tend to forget once he has gone. G knows I am doing this, and maybe one day I will let him read it. If it turns out that Mr Grumpy is the main personality, it pains me to say it, but I don’t see how I can stay.


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## jupiter13

Calvin:That is for sure there are a lot of people out there meaner than any bear and more dangerous too. Please Be careful.

Rookie: My Rosie is the Jack Russell mix something. She was supposed to be my pretty little lap dog. However something messed that up she's all 48 lbs now and sort of thinks she is my lap dog. However she is crazy obsessive with the hunting skills. Even when after gophers the trench can be 10 + feet my saving grace is as she trenches she is also back filling. She just turned 3 and she is still going strong as she was at 1. The breed just has energy for days. Hard Headed too but loves to please. She is also the boss around here and keeps the boys in line.


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## jupiter13

Robsia: My heart goes out to you. I understand the personality split. Never knowing what your walking into or who each and everyday. You certainly had to be prepared at all times to watch and react. That is a very difficult position to live in. I would like to say everything will be OK but we know that is not always the case. Work on your "self" girl and let the him work on him. Sounds as if all this change will take some time. There is no over night cure and it's however long you wish to hang in there.


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## ChangingMe

I have to jump out of lurkdom, Robsia to say that Dissociative Identity Disorder is a HUGE, not very common, extremely serious disorder -if not the most extreme diagnosis in the whole DSM. You cannot self-diagnose that for him, nor could he do it for himself. I have honestly never heard of it being diagnosed in someone without a severe, severe history of terrible trauma and abuse (usually sexual, though it could be from extreme physical torture as well). It is not just someone who is nice one minute, then switches to being mean. It is definite, distinct personalities -for example, his normal self could be a middle-aged man, while one of his alters could be a 12-year-old timid girl. He would switch to that alter and act and appear in mannerisms just like a young girl, then when he switched back, he would have no recollection whatsoever of what occurred during that dissociative time. (Look at the movie "Sybil" with Sally Field for Hollywood's take, though it was called Multiple Personality back then.) There is nothing you have written about your husband that leads me to believe he has DID. (I am a Master's level therapist and licensed counselor, though of course I cannot diagnose anyone that I haven't met. But still, your postings about his behavior do not fit DID.)

What you describe is much more a man with a controlling and abusive personality, which is why he is having to do the program he is in and why your MC will not see you as a couple right now. People who are abusive (whether it be physical/verbal/emotional) will excuse away their behavior or blame it on someone or something else (their partner, alcohol, stress, whatever). They believe it is never their fault. 

These people CAN change, but it is quite challenging, as it takes a LOT for them to even accept that there is a problem. I have co-led groups like the one he is in when I worked at a domestic violence agency. Some men "get it" and are able to learn to treat their partners with respect, so don't think I'm saying it's not possible. Not everyone does though -not even the majority of people. 

The thing you wrote three days after your honeymoon -THREE!!!!!- is very telling. This is behavior this man has exhibited for a long time -even during the newlywed stage. That's a huge red flag to me. 

I want to say what many others have already said, and encourage you (and others on here) *to not use a mental condition -whether legitimately diagnosed or only assumed -to be an excuse for your partner's cheating/abuse/hurtful behavior*. It shouldn't be an excuse for them, and it certainly shouldn't be an excuse for you to use to continue to allow yourself to be treated poorly. 

Ok, back to my cave . . .


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## Robsia

I appreciate your jump, ChangingMe.

I only mentioned DID because our MC suggested the Fragmented Personality Disorder, and when I googled it, the only thing that really came up was that it was another term for DID. I don't really know anythig more about it. But he has always seemed to present two distinct personality strands, from pretty much the very beginning. And his first wife said the same.

If it's not DID, and I know nothing about mental illnesses so I bow to any experience, then what?


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## Acabado

Hi, ChangingMe.


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## TCSRedhead

Maybe it's just him. Not all character flaws are a disorder or mental illness.


----------



## Acoa

Perhaps it is the way he presents his BPD. I have a friend who divorced his wife of 25 years after having buckled under the strain of it and finally coming the realization it will never change.

She would be sweet and loving one day. Promising to love him forever and telling him how happy he makes her. The next day should would spew venom and make him feel useless and threaten to divorce him. 

He went back and forth with her in this cycle for years. Even after she was diagnosed with BPD things didn't get better. There isn't really an effective treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder.

He is a much happier person now.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Acoa,

Seems like your friend found the one cure that worked . . .


----------



## ChangingMe

Robsia said:


> I appreciate your jump, ChangingMe.
> 
> I only mentioned DID because our MC suggested the Fragmented Personality Disorder, and when I googled it, the only thing that really came up was that it was another term for DID. I don't really know anythig more about it. But he has always seemed to present two distinct personality strands, from pretty much the very beginning. And his first wife said the same.
> 
> If it's not DID, and I know nothing about mental illnesses so I bow to any experience, then what?


Fragmented Personality Disorder is not a real personality disorder. It is not listed in the DSM, which is the book that those in mental health use that lists every recognized condition, it's symptoms, etc. Fragmented is not one of the options listed in the book. 

As for your question, if it's not DID, then what? I am going to be blunt. 

IT IS HIM. IT IS HIS CHOICES TO ACT IN THE WAY THAT HE IS ACTING. 

I can understand that being able to point at some condition to say that it is causing him to act the way he is acting is a comfort, since it means he's not just choosing to be a jerk, but I am not seeing it. And even if he did have something (besides the controlling/abusive characteristics that many people have identified), it still would not excuse his behavior. We are ALL responsible for how we treat people and the actions we take. 

He is not 2 different people. He is a person who, when things are going the way he wants, can be reasonable, enjoyable, and loving. And he is also a person who, when things are not to his liking, he will strike out in anger, aloofness, disdain, etc. 

I don't mean to speak for him as if I know him, but I have worked with many people with what seem like similar personalities, and I speak from my experiences there.


----------



## Affaircare

Robsia, 

If I could help translate into "layman's terms" for you:

Dissociative Identity Disorder is when there is one body, but the personalities inside the body are entirely different. In my whole life (I'm 51yo) I've known one person who had this, and what it's like is one minute they will be "Susan" who is soft-spoken and kind and the next minute they are an entirely different person...and I mean entirely. It may be "Bob" who is a 40yo introvert scientist, "Rha" who is an extroverted 32yo southern bell, or "Sue" who is a 9yo bully of a little girl. What's funny is that when they go from one to the other, they might put their head down or close their eyes...and when they come back you would SWEAR it is an entirely different person in front of you. Their face changes; their voice changes; their mannerisms change...EVERYTHING changes. Usually there is one sort of "main" person and for all the others is feels like a blackout to them... like "Wait how did I get here? What? It's Friday? No way it was just Thursday...." 

See...what usually or often happens is that the person was somehow abused or traumatize as their personality was developing. Now normally you may be "Mommy Robsia" with your kids, and "Wifey Robsia" with your husband, and "Professional Robsia" with your work, and "Personal Robsia" with your friends...so that normal people sort of have different aspects of their "personality" that are integrated together. When someone is abused over and over and over, one way to cope is to dissociate, and that' like when you're being abused, your body is there taking whatever abuse, but your mind kind of "checks out" and you detach from that body which is clearly you...but you're not in there. Okay it helps the abused person survive the abuse, but the mind is then a little fragmented in a less-than-normal way into "the body" who did something wrong and deserves the punishment (and the emotions are just BURIED!!)..and "the mind" who is good. 

After the abuse is over, if the person gets counseling they can figure out how to integrate the two and how to add some other healthy tools for dealing with things and coping with things. If not, then they just continue using that coping tool: on one side is emotions that are too scary to face and that usually is the one who's no good, mean, and angry so cram then down, don't feel anything and don't be associated with that guy....and the other side where some things are felt, nice stuff, and that side is nice and good and loved. Even that nice side is not too vulnerable. 

So my guess, when your counselor mentioned Fragmented Personality Disorder is that they meant that there are some indicators along those lines. See the way I envision it, everyone has SOME degree of all the disorders....it's like a continuum. On the left is "Completely has all symptoms and it's interfering in mental health"...on the right is "Completely denies and buries all symptoms and it's interfering in mental health" ...and in the middle is balance. That would be what we call "normal" meaning "Has some of the symptoms, acknowledges the symptoms, knows how to cope with them, and it does not interfere in mental health" We are all Fragmented in a way...but "normal" people find balance and integrate the different parts of their personality. We are all Narcissistic in a way if we love ourselves...but normal would find balance, love themselves but not at the expense of others and not expect others to worship them or expect to have to worship someone else. 

Soooo...make sense? Your hubby is clearly not two entirely different people inhabiting one body, but he is on the spectrum where some fragmenting is occurring and he may need some help integrating the different parts of his personality into one healthy option.


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## soulpotato

Acoa said:


> There isn't really an effective treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder.


Yes there is. It's called DBT. Please don't go lumping an entire group of people into the 'no hope' category, especially when what you're saying is untrue.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> Yes there is. It's called DBT. Please don't go lumping an entire group of people into the 'no hope' category, especially when what you're saying is untrue.


Actually I recently read a study that concluded that people who were diagnosed with BPD were receiving some very encouraging results from certain methods and treatments. From what I gathered the sticking point was getting an accurate diagnosis and acceptance from the patient. People with BPD often refuse to seek help and reject the findings if they do. Once they get beyond that part there is hope.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Actually I recently read a study that concluded that people who were diagnosed with BPD were receiving some very encouraging results from certain methods and treatments. From what I gathered the sticking point was getting an accurate diagnosis and acceptance from the patient. People with BPD often refuse to seek help and reject the findings if they do. Once they get beyond that part there is hope.


Yeah, I've read similar things, but at this point, DBT is THE treatment that has been proven to really work. Maybe the others will become more mainstream as time goes on and they are proven equally effective. 

BPDers actually DO seek help quite often. My therapist said just this week that she will rarely see people with PDs other than BPD come in for help on their own.

The accurate diagnosis part is tricky because therapists don't want to scare or shock their patients away (which as you've mentioned can be a problem with BPDers - keeping us in therapy that can often be distressing for us), and the insurance companies won't cover treatment for it yet. There's still a huge stigma attached to BPD (which I've often seen on TAM, too). Which is another thing that makes it tough to accept. There's so much bad press and ignorance about BPD (not to mention the vilification). Being diagnosed with it means you get to hear from so many people how hopeless you are as well as all sorts of other misinformation - and that's frustrating and difficult.

There _is_ a lot of hope. I wish more people realized that.


----------



## soulpotato

Bfree, was the study itself very recent? If you remember where you read it, I'd be interested to know as I'd like to read it, too.


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> Actually I recently read a study that concluded that people who were diagnosed with BPD were receiving some very encouraging results from certain methods and treatments. From what I gathered the sticking point was getting an accurate diagnosis and acceptance from the patient. People with BPD often refuse to seek help and reject the findings if they do. Once they get beyond that part there is hope.


I kinda did that at first. I didn't reject the findings, just when I was told that my actions were my fault and couldn't blame them on someone else, I quit going.


----------



## pidge70

soulpotato said:


> Yeah, I've read similar things, but at this point, DBT is THE treatment that has been proven to really work. Maybe the others will become more mainstream as time goes on and they are proven equally effective.
> 
> BPDers actually DO seek help quite often. My therapist said just this week that she will rarely see people with PDs other than BPD come in for help on their own.
> 
> The accurate diagnosis part is tricky because therapists don't want to scare or shock their patients away (which as you've mentioned can be a problem with BPDers - keeping us in therapy that can often be distressing for us), and the insurance companies won't cover treatment for it yet. There's still a huge stigma attached to BPD (which I've often seen on TAM, too). Which is another thing that makes it tough to accept. There's so much bad press and ignorance about BPD (not to mention the vilification). Being diagnosed with it means you get to hear from so many people how hopeless you are as well as all sorts of other misinformation - and that's frustrating and difficult.
> 
> There _is_ a lot of hope. I wish more people realized that.


Ah yes, run from your life! Your b!tchy wife sounds like a BPD'er, abandon all hope!......Stupid sh!t pisses me off, good thing I don't have anger issues........:rofl:


----------



## soulpotato

Pidge - gets really old, huh?  Good to see you around.


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> Bfree, was the study itself very recent? If you remember where you read it, I'd be interested to know as I'd like to read it, too.


This study found that although 16 percent of 142 psychiatrically disturbed adults initially met criteria for BPD, only 7 percent did after a decade and the avergae levels of BPD symptoms declined.

http://psychology.msu.edu/childemot...ers among outpatients with mood disorders.pdf

Timothy J. Trull conducted a study that suggested many young men and women that exhibited BPD symptoms did not display those symptoms in as little as two years suggesting that BPD symptoms can often fade and rather quickly. I believe this was the study.

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/home... Readings/Personality Disorders/Trull2000.pdf


----------



## bfree

I started looking at information on BPD because one of my wife's relatives is undergoing counseling and that is the working diagnosis. We refuse to believe that it is a "death sentence" like so many seem to suggest. I just don't believe it and from what I've read its mostly scare tactics.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> This study found that although 16 percent of 142 psychiatrically disturbed adults initially met criteria for BPD, only 7 percent did after a decade and the avergae levels of BPD symptoms declined.
> 
> http://psychology.msu.edu/childemot...ers among outpatients with mood disorders.pdf
> 
> Timothy J. Trull conducted a study that suggested many young men and women that exhibited BPD symptoms did not display those symptoms in as little as two years suggesting that BPD symptoms can often fade and rather quickly. I believe this was the study.
> 
> http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/home... Readings/Personality Disorders/Trull2000.pdf


Thank you very much, I'll take a look at those sometime this weekend.

I've heard that severity tends to decrease with age, but I know that there are exceptions to that. In my experience, having a stable home life and support from loved ones goes a long way, though. The general consensus seems to be that treatment is absolutely necessary, and I now agree with that.


----------



## soulpotato

Therapy session with GF earlier this week was promising. The therapist said she wanted to see us a bit closer and stronger, but that she thought GF should be ready to make a move soon. She proposed that GF break it to the family in a month that we are getting back together, and GF agreed. (We'll see.) The therapist wants to make sure we have a session lined up with her right after as she suspects GF will need help with standing up to her family, and she is right. (You guys want to talk about interference, these people have been trying to get between me and GF from day one, especially GF's mother.)


----------



## Acoa

soulpotato said:


> Yes there is. It's called DBT. Please don't go lumping an entire group of people into the 'no hope' category, especially when what you're saying is untrue.


I apologize for the generalization. The only experience I have with BPD is with this one person. 10 yrs after diagnosis and several different treatments, not much was changing. I am not close enough to her to say if she was earnestly trying to get better or not. I typically saw him without his wife.


----------



## Acabado

soulpotato said:


> Therapy session with GF earlier this week was promising. The therapist said she wanted to see us a bit closer and stronger, but that she thought GF should be ready to make a move soon. She proposed that GF break it to the family in a month that we are getting back together, and GF agreed. (We'll see.) The therapist wants to make sure we have a session lined up with her right after as she suspects GF will need help with standing up to her family, and she is right. (You guys want to talk about interference, these people have been trying to get between me and GF from day one, especially GF's mother.)


Sounds like a great step forward.
Fingers crossed for you guys.


----------



## soulpotato

Acoa said:


> I apologize for the generalization. The only experience I have with BPD is with this one person. 10 yrs after diagnosis and several different treatments, not much was changing. I am not close enough to her to say if she was earnestly trying to get better or not. I typically saw him without his wife.


Thank you for apologizing. 

It has to be the right therapist and the right treatment for the individual, and even then, major progress can take years (though not as long as 10, I should think, so something in the equation must have been off). Judging whether someone with BPD is trying to get better or not is pretty tricky. I mean, they may be trying like hell but still act out or slip up sometimes. (And honestly, most people with BPD wish they could be normal/healthy - they don't _want_ to leave destruction and alienation in their wake, contrary to popular belief.) It definitely takes time and the right combination of other factors.


----------



## Uptown

Yes, thanks for the update, Pidge. Am glad to hear that you two are still working on your relationship.


----------



## Harken Banks

Hey, Pidge. I haven't kept up. Hope you are well. Best to Joe. I think you guys can hold this together. I hope you will.


----------



## Robsia

Apropos of nothing, I was randomly searching BigMac's username as he has used it before elsewhere. I found this he posted from a wedding forum we both joined when we were engaged.



> Posted by BigMac in 2009
> I think as a man the fact my fiancée cheated on me with anyone would destroy me, regardless of who it was. It may be easier to comprehend them cheating with someone we both knew and would probably actually be worse that the person you love and want to marry would actually go off and sleep with a random stranger, because they were drunk.
> 
> Lies do have a funny way of catching up with you, maybe not today but sometime in the future. Who knows your random sexual partner may turn out to be the driver of your wedding car, or the hotel's head waiter or the bar man or something else associated with your happy day (maybe even the vicar :lol and how would that make them feel?
> 
> IMHO cheating is cheating, whichever way you try and dress it up. I am always intrigued by the drunken argument as it seems to be a cop out excuse for someone's behaviour. There is an old saying in vino veritas meaning "in wine [there is the] truth" Does this therefore mean that the drunken person meant to sleep with someone else? To me it suggests that the person is not fully committed to the relationship and sub conciously wants to have their cake and eat it, the drink just helps them realise it.
> 
> I would want to know if my fiancée had cheated on me and would have no hesitation in showing her the door as trust is the biggest part of a relationship and no matter whether you think you can forgive someone I don't honestly think your relationship would ever be the same again as the doubt would always be there and the guilt also, not a healthy relationship me thinks.


----------



## GreenThumb

Hello folks,

Just want to ask any of you BSs if during the months following DDay (exactly 2 months out today), if during what you initially felt were steps toward reconciliation, you find yourself thinking "What the hell am I thinking? This person cheated on me!" more often. 

I have been spending 2-3 days a week (usually during weekends) with WH to "test the waters" and see if I can proceed with MC and R. Even though he demonstrates signs of remorse during our times together (could be a great acting job for all I know), it seems that when I'm *not *with him, D seems more logical and appropriate. 

Is this acceptance of the reality of the A? Could my recent uncovering of A details (where they dined, song lyrics, poems, how often/methods of communication) push me closer to D? Or can I chalk this up to the roller coaster of recovery? 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts...


----------



## Mr Blunt

> it seems that when I'm not with him, D seems more logical and appropriate.


His cheating has tipped the default scales in favor of D. When you are WITH him and he shows signs of R then you are encouraged. When you are NOT with him you have no reinforcement about R being possible and you revert back to your default emotions


Blunt


----------



## calvin

We are out in the woods,almost no one around,very primitive.
Thats how camping should be.
Coyotes are closing in but thats not a problem,I like it.
CSS and I are still doing pretty good,thank God.
Right now the one area we have a problem with is me saying what needs to be done 
and how to set stuff up.
Being in the woods for a week is fun but you have to do it right.
This is good for us,going to the tent now and getting on the air matress with her.
No other place I'd want to b.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

GreenThumb said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> Just want to ask any of you BSs if during the months following DDay (exactly 2 months out today), if during what you initially felt were steps toward reconciliation, you find yourself thinking "What the hell am I thinking? This person cheated on me!" more often.
> 
> I have been spending 2-3 days a week (usually during weekends) with WH to "test the waters" and see if I can proceed with MC and R. Even though he demonstrates signs of remorse during our times together (could be a great acting job for all I know), it seems that when I'm *not *with him, D seems more logical and appropriate.
> 
> Is this acceptance of the reality of the A? Could my recent uncovering of A details (where they dined, song lyrics, poems, how often/methods of communication) push me closer to D? Or can I chalk this up to the roller coaster of recovery?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts...


It could go either way; it may come down to you passing through the minefield of the post DDay no man's land and just deciding you don't want it. It's hard to do now IMO because you are effectively in shock, it's still horribly raw and the instinct is to cling and hurriedly re-build (generally speaking). 

I'm at 13 weeks and still on the roller coaster though the sting of it is slightly less frequent and the hold it has on me just a little bit less. To be honest though I'm still pretty f**ked up.

My issue right now is that my WS is not doing any heavy lifting in our so called Recon and I'm more of the opinion each day that this is the case because deep down she doesn't want it. She's not into me but she needs me around. 

It's a bizarre place to be in to love your cheating spouse and consider them a low life all at the same time


----------



## StarGazer101

GreenThumb said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> Just want to ask any of you BSs if during the months following DDay (exactly 2 months out today), if during what you initially felt were steps toward reconciliation, you find yourself thinking* "What the hell am I thinking? This person cheated on me!"* more often.
> 
> I have been spending 2-3 days a week (usually during weekends) with WH to "test the waters" and see if I can proceed with MC and R. Even though he demonstrates signs of remorse during our times together (could be a great acting job for all I know), it seems that when I'm *not *with him, D seems more logical and appropriate.
> 
> Is this acceptance of the reality of the A? Could my recent uncovering of A details (where they dined, song lyrics, poems, how often/methods of communication) push me closer to D? Or can I chalk this up to the roller coaster of recovery?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts...


Green Thumb - I am 14 months since DDay and I still find myself thinking this stuff now and again. I think the key is how much the WS actually *demonstrates* remorse and *really* does the heavy lifting that you need to help you recover and begin to believe that it's worth trying to build a new relationship that will always have betrayal in the background.

My WS said/says the words but the actions don't always quite match up, and all of the hurt comes flooding back. In my case it was a LTA of around 3 years -so there is a lot to make up for. It has been heart-rending for me reading Robsia's recent posts re sex as they are striking very close to home ...situation is not the same but enough similarities to resonate with me. 

I know a lot about the deep level of intimacy my WS and his AP shared - as far as I'm concerned if he can't make me believe he really wants me as a woman rather than as a way of keeping his life, then D is the only option. Sometimes it seems that he does and I feel that it's worth the effort, other times not so much.....

I was also subjected to TT for nearly a year after DD so that along with the length and depth of the A have made things harder for me. It could have been so different if he'd truly been remorseful from the beginning, or if I'd found TAM earlier and learnt _what_ I was dealing with and known how to kick the rug-sweeping into touch. Now we are climbing a mountain because it was dealt with so badly after DD and that has added to the problems. 

I am incredibly grateful that I found TAM and this thread in particular; I learnt so much and gained strength and insight that I badly needed. If I hadn't, I do believe that we would not even still be in a situation where R was a consideration.

In essence what I am trying to say is that there is no time-limit on doubt after betrayal. You must focus on *your* healing and accept nothing less than what you need. If your WS is truly remorseful and gives it his all, then R may come to seem more logical and appropriate. I really hope it does.


----------



## Robsia

Meh - had a convo the other night about the comforting me when I'm upset thing.

One of the things he said was "So, you're incapable of making yourself feel better?"

I simply said, "Yes, a hug always makes me feel better."

But that sounded vaguely belittling, like I'm the one with the issue, for needing a hug when I'm upset. Don't we all need a hug when we're upset?

I don't know what to do really. I'm trying so hard not to have any expectations that I don't know where we go from here. We're sort of in limbo. We have stilted text conversations and we had one convo IRL when he came round on Saturday, but it didn't end awfully well.

I'm trying not to expect anything of him so I'm not disappointed, but he isn't actually doing anything aside from texting me every now and again to ask how I am.

Also he was very annoyed that I talked about our sex life on here and he has asked me not to talk about it any more.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> Meh - had a convo the other night about the comforting me when I'm upset thing.
> 
> One of the things he said was "So, you're incapable of making yourself feel better?"
> 
> I simply said, "Yes, a hug always makes me feel better."
> 
> But that sounded vaguely belittling, like I'm the one with the issue, for needing a hug when I'm upset. Don't we all need a hug when we're upset?
> 
> I don't know what to do really. I'm trying so hard not to have any expectations that I don't know where we go from here. We're sort of in limbo. We have stilted text conversations and we had one convo IRL when he came round on Saturday, but it didn't end awfully well.
> 
> I'm trying not to expect anything of him so I'm not disappointed, but he isn't actually doing anything aside from texting me every now and again to ask how I am.
> 
> Also he was very annoyed that I talked about our sex life on here and he has asked me not to talk about it any more.


Either your husband is completely disconnected or he doesn't have a clue about women. In all honesty at my worst I could always pick up women if I wanted to. But I also knew how to keep one if that was my goal. Women are not men. They have different feelings and have a different way of looking at the world around them. It behooves a man to learn what is important to women and to know how and more importantly why they feel as they do. If your husband wants to have more than a shallow cursory relationship with a woman he needs to learn what makes them tick. Unless he wants to share his life with a man. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'd tutor him but he couldn't afford me.

As for the discussion about sex. Get over yourself bud. If Robsia HAS to discuss your sex life with others on TAM that's a big indication that there NEEDS to be a discussion.


----------



## Robsia

russell28 said:


> Should have answered "what sex life?" or "I talked about our sex life, it took 8 seconds just like foreplay" or "there wasn't much to discuss"....
> 
> I'll be here all night folks...


Yep - joke about my life. That's gonna help.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Offering a hug to comfort someone is something most of us would offer to a common acquaintance and simply do for those we care about without having to ask.

His reaction that you're incapable is hostile and unloving and placing some sort of blame on you for having such an emotional need.


----------



## russell28

Robsia said:


> Yep - joke about my life. That's gonna help.


Didn't mean to offend, I apologize
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

We are at crisis point again. Hubby said yesterday he doesn't love me enough!! What on earth does that mean?
Anyway I have no more fight left in me. What will be will be. I'm going to start saving for a place of my own, with the children. A fresh start, a new adventure.
It hurts so bad!


----------



## soulpotato

TCSRedhead said:


> Offering a hug to comfort someone is something most of us would offer to a common acquaintance and simply do for those we care about without having to ask.
> 
> His reaction that you're incapable is hostile and unloving and placing some sort of blame on you for having such an emotional need.


Some people actually have to learn how to comfort and reassure, and just shut down or disconnect when faced with someone else's distress or other uncomfortable (for them) emotions. Instead of looking inside of themselves for why they struggle so much to meet the needs of others, they blame those who have the needs.


----------



## StarGazer101

DG So sorry - those words must be a knife to the heart. I think it's time for you to focus entirely on you and the children. He may still find his own path but you've given him all that you can and he is coming out with words like those. He needs to man up and he hasn't done it with your support - maybe he needs to do it on his own. Full 180 is what he needs from you, and what you need as well. 

Faced with the very real implications of what those words imply he might find it within himself to develop the strength to be the man that you need. It sounds to me like there's more self-pity at how difficult he's finding it to deal with being accountable and taking responsibility in those words than that he doesn't love you.

I hope you can work things out. My thoughts are with you - you deserve so much better.


----------



## daisygirl 41

StarGazer101 said:


> DG So sorry - those words must be a knife to the heart. I think it's time for you to focus entirely on you and the children. He may still find his own path but you've given him all that you can and he is coming out with words like those. He needs to man up and he hasn't done it with your support - maybe he needs to do it on his own. Full 180 is what he needs from you, and what you need as well.
> 
> Faced with the very real implications of what those words imply he might find it within himself to develop the strength to be the man that you need. It sounds to me like there's more self-pity at how difficult he's finding it to deal with being accountable and taking responsibility in those words than that he doesn't love you.
> 
> I hope you can work things out. My thoughts are with you - you deserve so much better.


Thank you. You are so right. I know he loves me and as you say he's still carrying a lot of self pity and guilt.

It doesn't hurt quite so bad this time, maybe I've been half expecting it as we haven't had such a good run of it this last couple of months. He needs to find his own path. I've told him I won't fight fit him again. I asked him if he wanted a divorce? Shall we put the house up for sale, no to both. I don't know what to think, but I am definitely concentrating on myself now, and once I've got enough for a deposit and some furniture I will be in a better position to make the decisions I need to make.

I'm glad he was honest with me though. We both cried and just decided to start off as friends again and see where we go. Ultimately though I really think, unless he steps up, then I'm done.
We nearly made it o 20 years. We may still do. We'll have to see!


----------



## daisygirl 41

Sorry for typos.


----------



## Horizon

soulpotato said:


> Some people actually have to learn how to comfort and reassure, and just shut down or disconnect when faced with someone else's distress or other uncomfortable (for them) emotions. Instead of looking inside of themselves for why they struggle so much to meet the needs of others, they blame those who have the needs.


That is a bloody great point SP. My WS is like her old man, it just hit me, he didn't do affection. She can't do that stuff for me, even a cuddle is fairly rare. However, she is not cold or incapable it's just not as easy for her as it is for me. And yeah, my need for that affection probably was viewed as needy. What a mismatch!


----------



## Horizon

I've been meaning to ask this for a while - how has sex been for those of you in Recon?

My Recon is bogus and sex is zero anyway but I am curious as to what the sex status is for those in Recon (excluding the hysterical phase of course, no points for that you tricksters)


----------



## bfree

DG, I echo what SG said. Time to step back and work on you.


----------



## Robsia

daisygirl 41 said:


> We are at crisis point again. Hubby said yesterday he doesn't love me enough!! What on earth does that mean?
> Anyway I have no more fight left in me. What will be will be. I'm going to start saving for a place of my own, with the children. A fresh start, a new adventure.
> It hurts so bad!


I'm so sorry.

He doesn't love you enough, but he doesn't want a divorce? WTF DOES he want?


----------



## Robsia

soulpotato said:


> Some people actually have to learn how to comfort and reassure, and just shut down or disconnect when faced with someone else's distress or other uncomfortable (for them) emotions. Instead of looking inside of themselves for why they struggle so much to meet the needs of others, they blame those who have the needs.


So how do we get past that? We talked again the other night. It was a little more productive and I actually got a hug at the end of the evening.

But when one person is so convinced that their reactions are normal and natural - and they are, to them; if BigMac is pissed off with me, he doesn't want me to hug him - how do you get them to see that other people don't feel the same?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Robsia said:


> I'm so sorry.
> 
> He doesn't love you enough, but he doesn't want a divorce? WTF DOES he want?


Good question


----------



## Acoa

Robsia said:


> if BigMac is pissed off with me, he doesn't want me to hug him - how do you get them to see that other people don't feel the same?


Sounds like a programmed reaction to me. I used to be like that. If my wife pissed me off, I didn't even want to see her until I cooled off. 

For me, it stemmed from when I was a kid. I'd get mad, then say or do something I'd regret and get into a crapstorm of trouble. But instead of learning to channel my anger into something productive instead of destructive, I learned to just shut down and internalize everything. 

It's difficult hard work to overcome crap like that learned in childhood. Part of it was that if a male shows pain or hurt, they are seen by society as weak. But anger is perfectly acceptable. So, it take courage, and trust for a guy to show you his pain. Some never show that side to anyone.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Robsia said:


> So how do we get past that? We talked again the other night. It was a little more productive and I actually got a hug at the end of the evening.
> 
> But when one person is so convinced that their reactions are normal and natural - and they are, to them; if BigMac is pissed off with me, he doesn't want me to hug him - how do you get them to see that other people don't feel the same?


The first thing that he needs to learn is that his needs are not all that is needed. Just because he isn't comfortable with something doesn't mean he can refuse to do it if its important to you. Behaviors are learned and can be changed with effort. Does he want to change? That's the question.


----------



## Acabado

bfree said:


> The first thing that he needs to learn is that his needs are not all that is needed. Just because he isn't comfortable with something doesn't mean he can refuse to do it if its important to you. Behaviors are learned and can be changed with effort. Does he want to change? That's the question.


This. Once again, practice. We train our muscles, our brains, we prepare exams, we get skills, we educate ourselves and change our less than acceptable jerknee reactions.
It requires commitment, to make a priority out of it, not letting you off the hook. You must care... enough.
It's susprising the feedback we get once we start making positive changes.


----------



## Robsia

bfree said:


> The first thing that he needs to learn is that his needs are not all that is needed. Just because he isn't comfortable with something doesn't mean he can refuse to do it if its important to you. Behaviors are learned and can be changed with effort. Does he want to change? That's the question.


We talked about this the other night, about how to get through an argument or a problem without letting it get the better of us.

Basically, I tried to say that even if you fall out or disagree with someone, if you care about that person, you have to find a way of doing it with an underpinning of love and care for that person. So even if the things they are saying are pissing you off, you have to remember, "I love this person. I care about them., If I say xyz it will be hurtful so I must find another way of saying what I want to say without the hurtful words."

When BigMac is angry, it's like his feelings for me switch off. He doesn't ever stop loving me, but in that angry moment he no longer cares about my feelings or bothers about hurting me - he is just lost in the anger.

That's what he needs to work past.

None of us are perfect and sometimes we all say hurtful things to people we care about, but it shouldn't be a first knee-jerk response.


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> So how do we get past that? We talked again the other night. It was a little more productive and I actually got a hug at the end of the evening.
> 
> But when one person is so convinced that their reactions are normal and natural - and they are, to them; if BigMac is pissed off with me, he doesn't want me to hug him - how do you get them to see that other people don't feel the same?


Excellent on the hug!

It is tough to get them to see that what they think is "normal and natural" may actually be learned dysfunction. And for where they're healthy, the effort still needs to be made to meet your needs regardless of whether or not they understand them or share them. That too can be difficult for them to realize when they're so very much in their own heads/perspectives.

Calm persistence and therapy may be the way to get through it. I recognize some of this you're going through with BigMac because GF is like that. Initially, she insisted I was the problem for having needs she didn't feel herself or wouldn't acknowledge (kind of like BigMac does with you). She told me that I couldn't expect comfort, reassurance, or certain expressions of affection, either because she didn't know how or it "just wasn't in her", but the combination of the therapist pointing the dysfunction out to her and my continued feedback appears to be bringing her to real awareness. She's beginning to make the effort to change those things now, but the resistance prior to that was MAJOR. I think the hardest part is getting through that denial and defensiveness, that protective wall. Because having empathy for us would make them vulnerable. And they're also afraid to change.

Before, I could start crying and she wouldn't even pause in her angry ranting. No concern, no acknowledgement, & certainly no hugs. Now, I have hope that she might be capable of making some effort to reach out sometimes, even when upset at me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Horizon said:


> That is a bloody great point SP. My WS is like her old man, it just hit me, he didn't do affection. She can't do that stuff for me, even a cuddle is fairly rare. However, she is not cold or incapable it's just not as easy for her as it is for me. And yeah, my need for that affection probably was viewed as needy. What a mismatch!


Thanks, Horizon. GF is exactly the same way. Her father was like that, too, & she modeled herself after him because her mother was even less safe. Both were/are emotionally unavailable people, as she tends to be. I think we "mismatches" draw each other, for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

soulpotato said:


> Excellent on the hug!
> 
> It is tough to get them to see that what they think is "normal and natural" may actually be learned dysfunction. And for where they're healthy, the effort still needs to be made to meet your needs regardless of whether or not they understand them or share them. That too can be difficult for them to realize when they're so very much in their own heads/perspectives.
> 
> Calm persistence and therapy may be the way to get through it. I recognize some of this you're going through with BigMac because GF is like that. Initially, she insisted I was the problem for having needs she didn't feel herself or wouldn't acknowledge (kind of like BigMac does with you). She told me that I couldn't expect comfort, reassurance, or certain expressions of affection, either because she didn't know how or it "just wasn't in her", but the combination of the therapist pointing the dysfunction out to her and my continued feedback appears to be bringing her to real awareness. She's beginning to make the effort to change those things now, but the resistance prior to that was MAJOR. I think the hardest part is getting through that denial and defensiveness, that protective wall. Because having empathy for us would make them vulnerable. And they're also afraid to change.
> 
> Before, I could start crying and she wouldn't even pause in her angry ranting. No concern, no acknowledgement, & certainly no hugs. Now, I have hope that she might be capable of making some effort to reach out sometimes, even when upset at me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At least your GF is starting to thaw a little. That gives me hope


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## Affaircare

Robsia, 

My own Dear Hubby is a man who is not a natural "hug to comfort" kind of guy. If we disagree, he tends to engage until he is getting more like rage-angry, and then he completely shuts down and gets all quiet. I am left feeling hurt and then like he just left me. 

BUT what we did was to learn how to notice when we are disagreeing in the middle of the actual disagreeing...like "Hey, just to note: are we disagreeing here?" It's our way of acknowledging out loud what is happening, which is not "I hate you" but "I do not agree or think the same thing here. YOU ... I love.  " 

Then, if either one of us gets that "rage building anger" feeling, we talked about it ahead of time, and we agreed to say out loud to the other person "I'm starting to feel REALLY angry here and that's not how I want to treat you. Can we take a break?" And then we have to ask for how long of a break we want and when we will pick up the topic again until it's resolved. So we might say "Could I have about 15 minutes to go sip some ice on the porch and calm down, and then we can start talking again," or "It's 2am and usually when it's really late like this it just gets worse and worse because we're tired. Can we stop before it gets nuts, sleep on it, and in the morning, share some coffee before the day gets going and resolve this?" 

We do it like that because we want to stop it before it becomes the heat of the moment when you say and do things you don't really mean. We also do it like that to be in agreement and respectful to both of us--we both agree to stop and for how long and when to start up again. We also do it like that so that neither one gets verbally abused and neither one feels like it's just an unresolved issue hanging out there never addressed. 

Now for me, when I see that he's trying to not be angry with me, and I see that he's trying to avoid verbal abuse kind of treatment, and I see that he agrees to work it out and resolve it in the near future, and I see that he's not just running away or avoiding it...why then quite often I don't feel like he's hurting me and just dumping me. There's still that underlying feeling of some caring there! But if I do still feel kind of hurt, then I will ask him right out: "Hey, our disagreement leaves me feeling a little residual hurt and I think it would really help me if we could hug (or cuddle if we were going to try to go to sleep). Would you be willing to give me a sort of long hug?" 

I figure it's reasonable for me to ask for what I need if I need it. It's also reasonable for me to get to know HIM and get to know his nature enough to tell myself "AC, he is not dumping you. This is how he processes things. This is not him being uncaring--it's you being needy. Chill out. Remember HIM and how he is."


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## Robsia

Affaircare said:


> Robsia,
> 
> My own Dear Hubby is a man who is not a natural "hug to comfort" kind of guy. If we disagree, he tends to engage until he is getting more like rage-angry, and then he completely shuts down and gets all quiet. I am left feeling hurt and then like he just left me.
> 
> BUT what we did was to learn how to notice when we are disagreeing in the middle of the actual disagreeing...like "Hey, just to note: are we disagreeing here?" It's our way of acknowledging out loud what is happening, which is not "I hate you" but "I do not agree or think the same thing here. YOU ... I love.  "
> 
> Then, if either one of us gets that "rage building anger" feeling, we talked about it ahead of time, and we agreed to say out loud to the other person "I'm starting to feel REALLY angry here and that's not how I want to treat you. Can we take a break?" And then we have to ask for how long of a break we want and when we will pick up the topic again until it's resolved. So we might say "Could I have about 15 minutes to go sip some ice on the porch and calm down, and then we can start talking again," or "It's 2am and usually when it's really late like this it just gets worse and worse because we're tired. Can we stop before it gets nuts, sleep on it, and in the morning, share some coffee before the day gets going and resolve this?"
> 
> We do it like that because we want to stop it before it becomes the heat of the moment when you say and do things you don't really mean. We also do it like that to be in agreement and respectful to both of us--we both agree to stop and for how long and when to start up again. We also do it like that so that neither one gets verbally abused and neither one feels like it's just an unresolved issue hanging out there never addressed.
> 
> Now for me, when I see that he's trying to not be angry with me, and I see that he's trying to avoid verbal abuse kind of treatment, and I see that he agrees to work it out and resolve it in the near future, and I see that he's not just running away or avoiding it...why then quite often I don't feel like he's hurting me and just dumping me. There's still that underlying feeling of some caring there! But if I do still feel kind of hurt, then I will ask him right out: "Hey, our disagreement leaves me feeling a little residual hurt and I think it would really help me if we could hug (or cuddle if we were going to try to go to sleep). Would you be willing to give me a sort of long hug?"
> 
> I figure it's reasonable for me to ask for what I need if I need it. It's also reasonable for me to get to know HIM and get to know his nature enough to tell myself "AC, he is not dumping you. This is how he processes things. This is not him being uncaring--it's you being needy. Chill out. Remember HIM and how he is."


I have frequently told him that just because we disagree on a topic doesn't meant that we have to argue about it. It's OK to have different opinions. I've also done the whole "Let's agree to disagree and leave it there" thing. I used to love a lively debate before I met him, but I found that I couldn't do that with him as he seemed to take any disagreement of opinion personally.

He is a lot better at that sort of disagreement these days. There have been a couple of times when we have disagreed on something and we have each politely stated our opinion, given a few resons for having it, and then managed to move on. It was a very CAREFUL disagreement though. 

But what do you do when you ask for the hug and he refuses to give you one?


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## Affaircare

Robsia said:


> But what do you do when you ask for the hug and he refuses to give you one?


Well first things first, I ask with the idea that it is a REQUEST and not a DEMAND. He is free to say "no" if he chooses. So I start from that place. 

If I ask and he says "No" I might ask what he is willing to do or if he has a suggestion. Sometimes he'll say he's willing to hold hands or depending on what occurred, he might say he's not feeling real safe and would prefer not to touch or have someone touch him. That's cool. He has a right to say no to touch. 

In that instance, I usually say "Okay well since I'm feeling unsafe-ish and needing some comfort, I'm going to do some things to comfort myself. So I'm going to choose to go hug m teddy bear for a little while and I'll probably cry" 

I have a whole list of things I do that are self-soothing. I sit on the back porch alone. I drink herbal tea (mint usually). I take a short walk in the park behind our house. I have some sort of soothing Native American music. I pray or meditate. I hug my teddy bear--yeah I really have a great big bear that is super smooshy and I hug him. I take a bubble bath. I journal. All these things are things I can do to soothe MYSELF and don't require another person.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all!

I just wanted to stop by and say that I need a TAM break. I've been reading but not posting much lately, and it's time for me to step back from the reading as well. All the posts about what BS's wish their WS's would be doing for them has me paranoid that I'm not working hard enough with Matt and that I must be missing something to help him heal. It has made me oversensitive to every mood nuance from him, and he feels like he is walking on eggshells with me. I definitely do NOT want that for him or I.

Thank you, more that words can ever say, to everyone who has offered advice, support, and perspective to me over the last 8 months. We are hanging in there, following our plan with Steve Harley, and I have a lot of hope for us. I hope you can understand the mental stress that TAM can bring, especially some of the more recent threads.

I wish the best for each and every person here. If you want to reach me, please do PM me... I'm happy to hear from any individuals. I just need to step back from the board itself. Sending positive thoughts and hopes to all of you as you go forward.


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## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I just wanted to stop by and say that I need a TAM break. I've been reading but not posting much lately, and it's time for me to step back from the reading as well. All the posts about what BS's wish their WS's would be doing for them has me paranoid that I'm not working hard enough with Matt and that I must be missing something to help him heal. It has made me oversensitive to every mood nuance from him, and he feels like he is walking on eggshells with me. I definitely do NOT want that for him or I.
> 
> Thank you, more that words can ever say, to everyone who has offered advice, support, and perspective to me over the last 8 months. We are hanging in there, following our plan with Steve Harley, and I have a lot of hope for us. I hope you can understand the mental stress that TAM can bring, especially some of the more recent threads.
> 
> I wish the best for each and every person here. If you want to reach me, please do PM me... I'm happy to hear from any individuals. I just need to step back from the board itself. Sending positive thoughts and hopes to all of you as you go forward.


You are a success story. You have done an amazing job. You and Matt both love each other. 

You have given up everything for Matt, your marriage and family.

Focus less on the past and more on the wonderfull future you have. You deserve it. 

Matt will never find anyone who loves him more.

Best wishes to both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Been camping for a week with the fam,had a great time.
Its amazing what being out in the woods for a week will do to you,we had almost
no one else around,very primitive,the way I like it.
Just wanted to pop in and wish you all the best.
Looks like some are doing pretty decent and a couple others are stuggling a bit.
Youre all in mine and CSS's prayers.
Hang tight guys,it gets much better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreenThumb

Hello everyone, 

Just wanted to get some feedback on WH behaviors. 

Quick background: DDay was 9 weeks ago, WH sent NC letter to AP and to my knowledge, has not had contact with OW for 8 weeks. WH and I have been living separately since DDay, but talk and see each other 2-3 times per week in hopes of R. We are both in IC and moving towards MC. 

Here is my concern and related question: 

WH appears to be very "needy" as of late. He requests to see me more often (I set the boundaries of when and where) and frequently texts endearments, *some of which I think are unrealistic *("I miss everything about you"). Is this typical behavior of remorseful WSs or red flags for something else? I fear that his neediness is the result of losing the AP's attention which he is imposing upon me now. 

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Acoa

GreenThumb said:


> Is this typical behavior of remorseful WSs or red flags for something else? I fear that his neediness is the result of losing the AP's attention which he is imposing upon me.


Could be both. That neediness you sense is probably his insecurity showing.


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## Robsia

We had a nice weekend, he came round for tea Friday and stayed. Saturday we all (us and kids) went to see Monsters University, then out for a meal afterward. It was a really nice weekend...but nothing else.

We talked this morning. I said I felt we were nothing more than friends.

He said he doesn't feel he has a wife, or a marriage at the moment.

I don't want to friendzone my husband. I'm so sad.


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## soulpotato

GreenThumb said:


> WH appears to be very "needy" as of late. He requests to see me more often (I set the boundaries of when and where) and frequently texts endearments, *some of which I think are unrealistic *("I miss everything about you"). Is this typical behavior of remorseful WSs or red flags for something else? I fear that his neediness is the result of losing the AP's attention which he is imposing upon me now.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.


I think this is normal for a remorseful WS. He's scared. The reality of very possibly losing you has finally gotten through to him.


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## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> We had a nice weekend, he came round for tea Friday and stayed. Saturday we all (us and kids) went to see Monsters University, then out for a meal afterward. It was a really nice weekend...but nothing else.
> 
> We talked this morning. I said I felt we were nothing more than friends.
> 
> He said he doesn't feel he has a wife, or a marriage at the moment.
> 
> I don't want to friendzone my husband. I'm so sad.


Robsia, maybe you're both feeling disconnected because of the recent strife?


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> I think this is normal for a remorseful WS. He's scared. The reality of very possibly losing you has finally gotten through to him.


I agree sp.
CSS was scared about what might become of us.
I feel its one of the signs of a truely remorseful WS.
I think its a "what the F did I do?" thing for the WS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

My WH says after he got involved he found he was asking himself "WTF," but he was hooked on the drugs he/they got him. He wanted out but didn't know how to cut it off, he was scared and knew this is not where he wanted to be. However the drug made him feel better. He was feeling angry at me and at himself yet he knew he still wanted to be in the marriage. He has also done a lot of rug sweeping, lots of answering questions, a lot of avoiding yet as 2 yr approach he is just now getting the serious counseling for his violent temper. Is he remorseful I believe he is in the only ways he knows how to be. He shows signs of lots of neediness and he is very insecure but now he can tell me how he is feeling instead of cutting himself off from me and treating me badly for not giving him what he wants without really telling me what it is he needs. I am not a mind reader. Pride gets in the way for many of us and between the two of us we have more than our share.


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## daisygirl 41

Rosbia, I think my husband has also put me in the friends zone and it stinks.
We are getting on really, doing things together and hanging out but he says he doesn't love me the way I need him to. So what do I do?
MarriageBusters would tell me to carry on as normal, act 'as if', ok that's works as it doesn't push him farther away and we just get on with things, but I want more. Do a 180? Yes that helps me to detach but he then just shuts down and we stop communicating. 
I'm really at a loss right now. 
How do I know if this is part of the long path of reconciliation and marriage, or if it is the end of the road.
He's really messing with my head and its not right!


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## Robsia

The more I try to explain what I need from him, the more determined he seems to be to not do it.

He said that he would be happy to comfort me if someone else upsets me, but if HE is the one to upset me, then he should not be the one to comfort me.

He is angry that I come on here and talk to you all; he has been very offensive about the people on here. He says all you get is a one-sided story but when I invite him to come on and tell his side, he says he can't now even if he wanted to because of what I have done, i.e. talk about our sex life.

Oh and he's not so insecure as to need advice from a bunch of [expletive] [expletives] on the internet, thank you very much.


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## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> The more I try to explain what I need from him, the more determined he seems to be to not do it.
> 
> He said that he would be happy to comfort me if someone else upsets me, but if HE is the one to upset me, then he should not be the one to comfort me.


I think I get what he's trying to say here - he's feeling too defensive and is too busy protecting himself to comfort you when he's personally involved, but he has to get over this. It's when _he_ has hurt you that he _most_ needs to be the one to comfort you. No one else can really do that for him.



Robsia said:


> He is angry that I come on here and talk to you all; he has been very offensive about the people on here. He says all you get is a one-sided story but when I invite him to come on and tell his side, he says he can't now even if he wanted to because of what I have done, i.e. talk about our sex life.
> 
> Oh and he's not so insecure as to need advice from a bunch of [expletive] [expletives] on the internet, thank you very much.


Seems he's feeling very threatened and defensive, but that behavioral pattern is part of the problem. Everyone needs advice sometimes, and if he wants to protect his pride at all costs, it will be the only thing he has left. I hope he realizes that...


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## hopefulgirl

Robsia, at the risk of being piled on again for showing compassion for BigMac, I can see where he's coming from. He has probably shut down in part due to embarrassment and feeling betrayed (yes, that's a switch) by YOU. 

If he had never been invited to be a part of this forum, then I think it would have been OK to discuss here your frustration about being the partner who is more interested in sex. But since you let him know that most everybody here (except me) that you told about his not putting out was on your side on the sex issue, as a MAN he was probably pretty shamed - and PO'd too.

Yes, it's all anonymous, but you feel a connection to us - we're a community of sorts, and he has felt the connection, because he has visited here too. So there's a group of people "out there" that he knows knows about his low sex drive. Can you imagine how upset he must be about that? He knows we know about his cheating, but his low sex drive is "a bridge too far." 

As I suggested (and got shot down for), one of the many misguided reasons he may have cheated is the well-documented extra excitement that cheating provides. He could have been getting some "help" for his problem that way. It's WRONG to get that kind of "help" but it's possible that he was able to get revved up by searching for skanks. He may need some medical help and is too embarrassed to do it. Low T? Depression? Again, I was shot down for suggesting such things. 

If a compassionate view toward the wayward spouses is not welcome here, just let me know.


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## ChangingMe

hopefulgirl said:


> If a compassionate view toward the wayward spouses is not welcome here, just let me know.


HG, I am a wayward. Several of the responders on here are waywards. I believe 100% that a person can make the worst choices of their lives, hurt the people that they love more than they ever thought they could, realize their mistakes, and work their azzes off to heal them and fix the situation as best they can. 

I also feel that, as a wayward, I can pick up a little better on what seem like excuses and smoke and mirrors. I am also a licensed counselor, and I have a decade of experience working with issues like depression, anxiety and the like. Not that I have all the answers by ANY stretch of the imagination. Like I said, I'm a wayward. I cheated. Obviously I have my own stuff I am trying to figure out.

I really feel that what people are responding to here (or at least what I am responding to) is that it is less about showing compassion to the wayward and more about buying their excuses without seeing any hard work to make amends for the damage they have caused. 

I am for compassion to a wayward that is working as hard as possible to figure out (1) how they let themselves do what they did, and (2) how they can help their BS heal from the damage they have caused. If I don't see that happening, then I get really, really nervous that the BS is getting played.


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## TCSRedhead

ChangingMe said:


> HG, I am a wayward. Several of the responders on here are waywards. I believe 100% that a person can make the worst choices of their lives, hurt the people that they love more than they ever thought they could, realize their mistakes, and work their azzes off to heal them and fix the situation as best they can.
> 
> I also feel that, as a wayward, I can pick up a little better on what seem like excuses and smoke and mirrors. I am also a licensed counselor, and I have a decade of experience working with issues like depression, anxiety and the like. Not that I have all the answers by ANY stretch of the imagination. Like I said, I'm a wayward. I cheated. Obviously I have my own stuff I am trying to figure out.
> 
> I really feel that what people are responding to here (or at least what I am responding to) is that it is less about showing compassion to the wayward and more about buying their excuses without seeing any hard work to make amends for the damage they have caused.
> 
> I am for compassion to a wayward that is working as hard as possible to figure out (1) how they let themselves do what they did, and (2) how they can help their BS heal from the damage they have caused. If I don't see that happening, then I get really, really nervous that the BS is getting played.


Because I could not say it better. And I am also a fww.


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## EI

ChangingMe said:


> HG, I am a wayward. Several of the responders on here are waywards. I believe 100% that a person can make the worst choices of their lives, hurt the people that they love more than they ever thought they could, realize their mistakes, and work their azzes off to heal them and fix the situation as best they can.
> 
> I also feel that, as a wayward, I can pick up a little better on what seem like excuses and smoke and mirrors. I am also a licensed counselor, and I have a decade of experience working with issues like depression, anxiety and the like. Not that I have all the answers by ANY stretch of the imagination. Like I said, I'm a wayward. I cheated. Obviously I have my own stuff I am trying to figure out.
> 
> I really feel that what people are responding to here (or at least what I am responding to) is that it is less about showing compassion to the wayward and more about buying their excuses without seeing any hard work to make amends for the damage they have caused.
> 
> I am for compassion to a wayward that is working as hard as possible to figure out (1) how they let themselves do what they did, and (2) how they can help their BS heal from the damage they have caused. If I don't see that happening, then I get really, really nervous that the BS is getting played.





TCSRedhead said:


> Because I could not say it better. And I am also a fww.



Ditto......... from another FWW


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## margrace

hi everyone: i have been away from you for a while, and will be traveling again soon, so i wanted to post an update and a couple of responses.

fWH and i are doing well. he continues to be unwavering in his efforts on behalf of R and the reclaiming of his own integrity. we talked about one of the most deceitful moments of our false R over the weekend, and it was so painful for both of us. still, something hopeful comes out of our ability to do that, as all of you know. it ends up feeling like we own (and then can begin to move past) those places and triggers and memories -- they don't own _us_.

what we go through as BSs is shattering beyond words AND what these truly remorseful WSs take on to their shoulders is inspiring and commands respect. i really appreciate my H today along with all of you fWSs on this thread. along those lines, best wishes to *Mr. and Mrs. M*. i agree with *jim* -- i know you are both still working hard but to me, you are a success story .

*soulpotato*, it has sounded like things are steadily improving between you and GF lately! plus you are sounding very grounded and wise  i hope i'm right about the progress!

*robsia*, you are working soooo hard  and i keep feeling like your H's insecurities are getting in the way. i don't think he wants to friendzone you either. _he just wants a way of fixing things that isn't so hard for him. _i'm not implying that that is conscious or deliberate. i think that most of us try to avoid the sharpest corners of things until we have little choice but to do so.

i know i am telling you things that you have already thought of here, but he still has quite a bit of challenging personal work to do. i think of questions like these: why should he be so unhappy about your seeking help here, or anywhere else that _help is to be found_? all of us in the world need that -- why shouldn't you? why shouldn't he? what would it mean for him if he had to see himself as needing help? 

and why does he feel that he cannot/should not comfort you when he's the one who caused the hurt? what does it feel like for him when he encounters that moment -- the one in which he must directly experience, directly *enter* the pain that he caused someone else? and what will it mean for you as an R'ing couple if he refuses to enter that place?

*dg*, it broke my heart to read your H's recent words to you. you have, as always, expressed the situation very clearly: it may be part of the twists and turns of R, or it may signal something less favorable. either way, i think back to your mini-180. i wonder if you could do something like that again? Bring the focus to your own life as though you are now on your own -- because you may be. H needs (again







) to confront what he wants and how much he is willing to commit and work. it seems like he has previously done about 85% of what was needed for R, and he needs to figure out whether he can/wants to get behind that last 15% or not. i get the feeling that he just really doesn't know what he wants.

also, i wonder if perhaps you (like most of us who have been through this stuff) could benefit from your own IC. you strike me as a perceptive, strong-minded woman, and as such i think you would do well with an IC who will push you a little. of course, even the best IC can only help when we decide that we are ready to be pushed. 

*greenthumb,* i agree with sp's response to you. in the context of everything else you've described, your WH's behavior sounds like a WS who has clearly seen the distinct possibility of a future with no *you* in it. my fWH described this realization as "a near-death experience." your H's reaching out to you sounds like an expression of his remorse. 

warm wishes to all of you <3


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## hopefulgirl

ChangingMe said:


> HG, I am a wayward. Several of the responders on here are waywards. I believe 100% that a person can make the worst choices of their lives, hurt the people that they love more than they ever thought they could, realize their mistakes, and work their azzes off to heal them and fix the situation as best they can.
> 
> I also feel that, as a wayward, I can pick up a little better on what seem like excuses and smoke and mirrors. I am also a licensed counselor, and I have a decade of experience working with issues like depression, anxiety and the like. Not that I have all the answers by ANY stretch of the imagination. Like I said, I'm a wayward. I cheated. Obviously I have my own stuff I am trying to figure out.
> 
> I really feel that what people are responding to here (or at least what I am responding to) is that it is less about showing compassion to the wayward and more about buying their excuses without seeing any hard work to make amends for the damage they have caused.
> 
> I am for compassion to a wayward that is working as hard as possible to figure out (1) how they let themselves do what they did, and (2) how they can help their BS heal from the damage they have caused. If I don't see that happening, then I get really, really nervous that the BS is getting played.


ChangingMe, as a licensed counselor, would you expect someone who has untreated depression (I understand a physician at some point suggested BigMac might be suffering from depression) would be able to focus and "work as hard as possible to figure out (1) how they let themselves do what they did" when they are already dealing with the kind of overwhelming pain that depression can cause? Could a person with untreated depression also be suffering from sex drive problems? Would it be reasonable to expect symptoms like irritability, and not being able to care so much about things they used to truly care about, like the state of their marriage? 

Depression is no excuse. But it can sometimes explain.

You can talk to a diabetic when his blood sugar is low, but anything he says or does might not make much sense and he might not retain things you say to him. Give him some orange juice first, then have that conversation.


----------



## TCSRedhead

hopefulgirl said:


> ChangingMe, as a licensed counselor, would you expect someone who has untreated depression (I understand a physician at some point suggested BigMac might be suffering from depression) would be able to focus and "work as hard as possible to figure out (1) how they let themselves do what they did" when they are already dealing with the kind of overwhelming pain that depression can cause? Could a person with untreated depression also be suffering from sex drive problems? Would it be reasonable to expect symptoms like irritability, and not being able to care so much about things they used to truly care about, like the state of their marriage?


Yes, I expect them to be an active pursuant to getting the relationship repaired. Not a passive, 'do as little as possible to sustain status quo' participant along for the ride.

As long as you keep throwing out excuses, there is no incentive for a WS to do the work. 

I have suffered from clinical depression and have had to be medicated. I STILL did the work - I didn't put it all on HIS shoulders to fix it.

I was the one who came to TAM and started reaching out to folks here to better understand what I needed to do.

I was the one who purchased books, sought a therapist and started initiating conversations daily to work things out.

See the difference?


----------



## ChangingMe

hopefulgirl said:


> ChangingMe, as a licensed counselor, would you expect someone who has untreated depression (I understand a physician at some point suggested BigMac might be suffering from depression) would be able to focus and "work as hard as possible to figure out (1) how they let themselves do what they did" when they are already dealing with the kind of overwhelming pain that depression can cause? Could a person with untreated depression also be suffering from sex drive problems? Would it be reasonable to expect symptoms like irritability, and not being able to care so much about things they used to truly care about, like the state of their marriage?
> 
> Depression is no excuse. But it can sometimes explain.
> 
> You can talk to a diabetic when his blood sugar is low, but anything he says or does might not make much sense and he might not retain things you say to him. Give him some orange juice first, then have that conversation.


Would I expect them to work as hard as possible to figure things out and help their spouse heal? Absolutely -but only if reconciliation was the most important thing to them. Could the depression affect how they were able to work on R? Possibly, but they still should be able to do work -IF they truly wanted to mend the damage they caused. 

Honestly, that's what I believe it boils down to. If a person wants to fix this, they will work to fix it. That may include getting treatment for anxiety or depression, but it also HAS to include helping their partner heal and figuring out their own junk. Otherwise, it's rugsweeping and no one is holding the WS accountable for the damage they caused. 

I suffer from depression too. And I have pretty bad anxiety now too since DDay. But I still sought out my own IC, read every book I could find on infidelity, came to TAM when my husband showed it to me and stayed, even though it was really rough here for a long time, have answered every question asked of me numerous times, written a timeline, have begged for MC many times, and have tried to follow all suggestions I can find to help my marriage and my husband heal from the damage I have done. 

I'm not perfect. Clearly. But I am trying. And that is the point I am trying to make.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Just an update. We're coming up to two years post D-Day. 

Things between us are wonderful. Parenting this little guy is one of the hardest challenges we've had to face but I love that we're doing it together. 

We've moved back to SoCal and are still settling in. 

I've taken a new position with the same company.

Three major stressful life events and we're still doing good. 

I continue to bring the topic to the forefront on occasion to see how he's feeling. He insists that it's not on his mind most days. He loves me and feels good that I've put my efforts in to focus on him, us and our marriage again.

We're working on bringing some more focused time on date nights which should be easier now that the baby is a year old. 

I re-read Not Just Friends again. It keeps me grounded with remembering boundaries. 

We had a small episode the other night where he felt I was hiding my iPad messaging, so I picked it up, turned it on and handed it to him without any hesitation. I WANTED him to look at it and I WANTED him to know there was nothing to hide. I think that helped a bunch.

He's facing a really hard time right now with his uncle who is terminally ill. As his dad passed at an early age, this uncle WAS a father figure in all senses. I just make sure to offer him my undivided attention to listen to his pain, touch him (shoulder/hands) as reassurance and hug him as I can to comfort him. He is my rock and it breaks my heart to see him hurt. I would move mountains to spare him any further pain.


----------



## bfree

hopefulgirl said:


> ChangingMe, as a licensed counselor, would you expect someone who has untreated depression (I understand a physician at some point suggested BigMac might be suffering from depression) would be able to focus and "work as hard as possible to figure out (1) how they let themselves do what they did" when they are already dealing with the kind of overwhelming pain that depression can cause? Could a person with untreated depression also be suffering from sex drive problems? Would it be reasonable to expect symptoms like irritability, and not being able to care so much about things they used to truly care about, like the state of their marriage?
> 
> Depression is no excuse. But it can sometimes explain.
> 
> You can talk to a diabetic when his blood sugar is low, but anything he says or does might not make much sense and he might not retain things you say to him. Give him some orange juice first, then have that conversation.


I know this was directed at CM but if I may ask these questions.

When is it the responsibility of the person suffering from depression to seek treatment?

Is it fair to Robsia to take the entire weight of R on her shoulders because BigMac has chosen not to seek treatment for his depression?

By continuing to shoulder this burden isn't Robsia enabling BigMac to avoid dealing with a serious health concern?


----------



## Robsia

bfree said:


> I know this was directed at CM but if I may ask these questions.
> 
> When is it the responsibility of the person suffering from depression to seek treatment?
> 
> Is it fair to Robsia to take the entire weight of R on her shoulders because BigMac has chosen not to seek treatment for his depression?
> 
> By continuing to shoulder this burden isn't Robsia enabling BigMac to avoid dealing with a serious health concern?


To be fair, the depression thing was a suggestion made by his GP over the phone. It never got mentioned again and he does have an appt to see a psychiatrist next month.

He has tried to address some of his issues and is attending the appointments that have been set up for him, however, I feel there is more he can do by himself as well.


----------



## bfree

TCSRedhead said:


> Just an update. We're coming up to two years post D-Day.
> 
> Things between us are wonderful. Parenting this little guy is one of the hardest challenges we've had to face but I love that we're doing it together.
> 
> We've moved back to SoCal and are still settling in.
> 
> I've taken a new position with the same company.
> 
> Three major stressful life events and we're still doing good.
> 
> I continue to bring the topic to the forefront on occasion to see how he's feeling. He insists that it's not on his mind most days. He loves me and feels good that I've put my efforts in to focus on him, us and our marriage again.
> 
> We're working on bringing some more focused time on date nights which should be easier now that the baby is a year old.
> 
> I re-read Not Just Friends again. It keeps me grounded with remembering boundaries.
> 
> We had a small episode the other night where he felt I was hiding my iPad messaging, so I picked it up, turned it on and handed it to him without any hesitation. I WANTED him to look at it and I WANTED him to know there was nothing to hide. I think that helped a bunch.
> 
> He's facing a really hard time right now with his uncle who is terminally ill. As his dad passed at an early age, this uncle WAS a father figure in all senses. I just make sure to offer him my undivided attention to listen to his pain, touch him (shoulder/hands) as reassurance and hug him as I can to comfort him. He is my rock and it breaks my heart to see him hurt. I would move mountains to spare him any further pain.


So good to hear things are going well for you both. How is his artwork going. If I recall correctly he was designing really cool looks for bikes right? I was simply amazed at his work when I saw it.


----------



## TCSRedhead

bfree said:


> So good to hear things are going well for you both. How is his artwork going. If I recall correctly he was designing really cool looks for bikes right? I was simply amazed at his work when I saw it.


Thanks - he's getting some things ready for publication in two magazines this year. He's done a few jobs but has really had his hands full with all the logistics of handling this move PLUS taking care of the little one during the day while I'm at the office.

A friend of his (another artist) is talking to him about doing some appearances on a car/bike show but he's not sure if this is something he wants to do.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



TCSRedhead said:


> Thanks - he's getting some things ready for publication in two magazines this year. He's done a few jobs but has really had his hands full with all the logistics of handling this move PLUS taking care of the little one during the day while I'm at the office.
> 
> A friend of his (another artist) is talking to him about doing some appearances on a car/bike show but he's not sure if this is something he wants to do.


Well I hope he utilizes his incredible talent. He's an amazing artist.


----------



## soulpotato

Margrace, glad to see you around! I'm glad things are going well for you, even if those tough conversations with your H are going to be happening for a long time. 

Thank you for your words. Things have been better. We haven't fought for about a month, and we seem to be communicating a bit better. I'm not talking about things as soon as they bother me. I'm just trying to trust that GF is going to fix these things sooner or later since she mostly knows about them. 

Though she agreed to tell her family in a couple of weeks that we would be _getting back together_ (discussed in the last therapy session), last night on the phone she changed it back to "working on things". I hope it was a slip of the tongue. 

P.S. Things in the other areas of my life have been getting extremely stressful lately, and god knows I don't need any more stress!


----------



## CantSitStill

Just wanted you all to know I'm thinking of you all and have been reading your posts. Things are good with calvin and I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Oops that would be calvin and me.. right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GreenThumb

CantSitStill said:


> Oops that would be calvin and me.. right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This correction prompted a smile  from this English teacher!


----------



## Robsia

Hmm interesting text convo tonight. We have had some very careful and neutral text convos these last few days. But tonight he asked if he was invited for dinner tomorrow night. The following convo ensued.

ME: If u think we can manage not to kill each other I can prob manage to throw a pizza in x

HIM: Well we didn't kill each other last weekend x

ME: But it didn't end awfully well x

HIM: In what respect? We are struggling somewhat to find our feet again, not easy as I am finding some aspects difficult and I know you are too x

ME: Well lets see how it goes. I think basically I need lots and lots of TLC x

HIM: Me too, I think I may have figured out a few things. Especially on the sex thing but its something we can talk about tomorrow. Same time 6:30? x

ME: Ok sounds like a plan. I shall look forward to hearing your revelations x

HIM: Might not be that exciting but it's something that occurred to me the other day x

ME: Ok well if it helps us it's gotta be a good thing. Night, sleep well x

HIM: Lets hope so  night night and sweet dreams x


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia, I see where this could have been a more validating, reassuring conversation for you, but I don't think it was necessarily a bad one. What are your thoughts on it?


----------



## Robsia

LOL - no - I meant it was a GOOD conversation. He's been thinking about our relationship and had some ideas and mentioned it voluntarily. This doesn't often happen.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hubby has been away for a few days visiting family. He's away for 2 more days. Been having a nice time with the children and haven't really missed him much but woke up this morning feeling desperately sad.

Is it ok to tell him I love him, even though he doesn't say it back?
Does it make me look needy and pathetic? Or is it ok to just be honest with him. Do I need to hide my feelings now? We have been texting back and forth and he's rung me everyday, no talk about 'us" though, just general friendly chit chat.


----------



## Robsia

These are my own personal opinions - others' opinions may vary, but...



daisygirl 41 said:


> Is it ok to tell him I love him, even though he doesn't say it back?


No



> Does it make me look needy and pathetic?


Yes



> Or is it ok to just be honest with him.


Normally, honesty is important, but how does it make you feel if you tell him you love him and he doesn't say it back? For your own sanity and peace of mind, don't.



> Do I need to hide my feelings now?


Sometimes, yes, for the reasons given above.

I know it hurts, God knows I know it hurts. But by telling him you love and miss him, when you know he won't say it back is just setting yourself up for disappointment and hurt.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> LOL - no - I meant it was a GOOD conversation. He's been thinking about our relationship and had some ideas and mentioned it voluntarily. This doesn't often happen.


Sometimes it takes time before people force themselves to tackle a particularly difficult job. Maybe he is now starting to force himself to look at the ways he wasn't holding up the relationship and now he sees things he can do to repair the damage.


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> These are my own personal opinions - others' opinions may vary, but...
> 
> 
> 
> No
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> Normally, honesty is important, but how does it make you feel if you tell him you love him and he doesn't say it back? For your own sanity and peace of mind, don't.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes, yes, for the reasons given above.
> 
> I know it hurts, God knows I know it hurts. But by telling him you love and miss him, when you know he won't say it back is just setting yourself up for disappointment and hurt.


I agree. You need to detach and he needs to see and hear you detaching.


----------



## SomedayDig

Horizon said:


> I've been meaning to ask this for a while - how has sex been for those of you in Recon?
> 
> My Recon is bogus and sex is zero anyway but I am curious as to what the sex status is for those in Recon (excluding the hysterical phase of course, no points for that you tricksters)


It's actually quite amazing. I'd say hysterical phase lasted til about September last year - which was fun! That said, though it's been awesome. It was fairly sexless during the affair and now it's probably 3x a week. And did I say amazing? How about hot?!

Sorry for quoting an old post, however Regret and I moved from NY to FL on 7/12 and just got internet hooked up the other day. I'll probably not be posting much as part of this move was to reboot our lives. There are no ghosts in this apartment and I'm free of that haunted feeling of shadows that lurked in our former home.


----------



## Horizon

SomedayDig said:


> It's actually quite amazing. I'd say hysterical phase lasted til about September last year - which was fun! That said, though it's been awesome. It was fairly sexless during the affair and now it's probably 3x a week. And did I say amazing? How about hot?!
> 
> Sorry for quoting an old post, however Regret and I moved from NY to FL on 7/12 and just got internet hooked up the other day. I'll probably not be posting much as part of this move was to reboot our lives. There are no ghosts in this apartment and I'm free of that haunted feeling of shadows that lurked in our former home.


Thanks for replying SD, I hope all is well down south. 

My own situ is no sex before, during and now after. Drip fed sex has hardly put a mark on the graph for so long I won't bother rating it.

Looking fwd to hearing from you on TAM - at least occasionally.

Best wishes Horizon


----------



## CantSitStill

Dig, I am happy to hear you are away from that house. You will never have to go in that basement. You can press forward and not look at that rear view mirror. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Well for a WH who says it was all about the sex 1x a week is not cutting. Oh excuse me, he got a job and I got nothing even though I wear suggestive cloths and hints lots of kisses etc. 2 weeks now.


----------



## GreenThumb

Quick question for BSs: 

An unfamiliar anger crept up on me today when WH enjoyed his day today. It's almost as if I felt he had no right to be happy engaging in activities he typically enjoys and spending time with others (who I believe have no idea about the A and our separation). I was not around, but he was texting me and sending pics of his activities per my request for reassurance during our separation. 

Is this an emotion that BSs experience? If so, how do you handle it? Honestly, I felt like calling him and screaming into the phone, "You don't deserve to have fun, you cheating a******e". I won't see my counselor for two weeks and like I said, this is a new feeling.


----------



## Acabado

GreenThumb said:


> Is this an emotion that BSs experience? If so, how do you handle it? Honestly, I felt like calling him and screaming into the phone, "You don't deserve to have fun, you cheating a******e". I won't see my counselor for two weeks and like I said, this is a new feeling.


Pretty normal.
And for now you are separated, picture yourself awake late AM, plagged by mind movies and obsessive thoughts while your partner is peacefully sleeping like a baby at your side. Better keep sharp utensils out of the bedroom!
Yeah, they have no right to be happy, not for a single minute while I'm hurting. Right?
I've been reading your posts. You are understandabily angry... but somehow composed at the sight of this nightmare. You are now entering the anger phase, brace yourself. Hope your husband (in case he realy wants to fight for you) educate himself about what it takes to R, he will need it to face it, will need to face you!


----------



## Refuse to be played

Hey everyone, just got back state side Weds afternoon. Jet lagged and exhausted. Currently in Tampa with some of W's relatives. I highly advise everyone to ditch the rugrats get your a##es on a cruise ship if you can afford it because that was the most fun I ever had on a vacation. 

I said I was going to do everything in my power to keep the trip affair free and for the most part I did. I found a new trigger that bothered me for a couple of days at the beginning and ending of our trip. Whenever my W left town for work I would always be there to see her off through security and I would always be there waiting for her at baggage claim when she came back. The day we left home, it reminded me about the times I saw her off and welcomed her during the affair (triggered a bit on the way back as well). But a day and a few drinks later I was over it.

Most of the ports we stop at were in Italy and W really enjoyed that (she's half Italian and is fluent). There was so much fun stuff to get into on and off the ship and the beaches were beautiful. We even went para-sailing ,scuba diving, and power boating . In the casino on the ship I won about $300 from blackjack and craps but she lost like $180 on slots, video poker, and roulette . I'm not that into seafood but the local food was pretty good. She bought a couple of cook books when we stopped Naples and Barcelona. Nightlife was awesome, the clubs and bars on and off the ship spent a lot of time dancing and what not. And intimacy was not a problem on this trip at all.

Oh one thing I find funny. Looking back I figured I'd be the one that would be very possessive and territorial over her considering everything that happened, but I wasn't. I figured she knew the deal, that she was on a VERY short leash and I wanted to have fun not be her parole officer. The ironic thing was she was SUPER possessive of me the whole time. One thing that bodes well for us I think is that I notice we both were instinctively making plans for the future together. Like 'oh we gotta come back here some day' or 'maybe we can cruise the Caribbean next summer and make this a yearly thing'.

For the first time in MONTHS I felt normal, not worried, angry, depressed, stressed, or anxious. I can honestly say I have not felt this good in over half a year. 

And the para-sailing has inspired me to give skydiving a shot. Gonna have to do it by myself or with a friend, W is too much of a chicken


----------



## Robsia

@GreenThumb - yup very normal. They don't have a clue of the torment and anguish you are going through - they just blithely carry on being normal and happy. They are the ones that did wrong, yet you're the one being punished, every single sodding day. It's not fair, is it? But sadly, in R, that's the way it is. They did wrong but they get to keep you and the marriage. You always have the option to walk away, to divorce, then they get to lose the marriage, But so do you. If you want to make R work, then it's always going to be unfair.

@RTBP - glad you had a good cruise. Triggers happen. Even you mentioning Italy triggered me as we went to Rome and Venice on our honeymoon. Funny, it's not just things about the As that trigger, it's also memories of happier times, especially those to do with the wedding, when he vowed to forsake all others, and then proceeded to break those vows a scant two years down the line. So, yeah, there are triggers galore. But you can't live your life ruled by triggers. You have to beat them.

As for us, we had a lovely evening last night. I won't see him tonight as he is going to Scotland for his son's 21st birthday. But yesterday he came round in a totally different frame of mind. He was loving, affectionate, touchy, flirty, everything he hasn't been for the last few weeks. When my little one had gone to bed (my eldest is away camping) we snuggled and watched a few episodes of Big Bang Theory - he bought the box set so it's our latest thing to do. He says I remind him of Sheldon. I admit, there are certain traits I identify with - but I am nowhere near that crazy.

I did try to ask him what was on his mind, that he had alluded to in the texts. He thought about it, and eventually said that it felt weird and he wasn't ready to talk about it yet - that he didn't want to say the words. SO I just told him it was okay and that I would be there to listen whenever he felt ready to talk.

So I'm thinking maybe he thinks there is a physical reason, like low T or something, but as it's embarrassing as a man to consider something like that. It's a blow to his masculinity and he isn't ready to face up to it yet. Like saying the words, makes it real.

I do understand that so I'm not going to push.

But anyway, it wasn't a problem last night, if you KWIM! :FIREdevil:


----------



## B1

Good morning all...

Wow...this thread is almost a year old!

I started this thread almost a year ago and then I was in so much pain it's hard to believe I ever made it this far. Then, I was grabbing for straws, I was needing input, help, understanding, guidance, wisdom and I needed to share my pain because it was just too much to handle on my own. God I really hurt back then.

What a difference a year makes. EI and I are doing great now, we have both grown so much and come along way. We are finally one flesh again. I made the right decision in deciding to R and EI did too. We both had to learn to trust again. I had to trust that she would never have an A again, and she had to trust that I wouldn't go back to my neglectful ways. I crushed her spirit over the course of many years, she crushed mine in one single blow. We were two flawed beings in a huge mess and making it messier.

We climbed out of that mess with the help of so many on this thread. I believe we got more from TAM then we did from counselling. There are so many wise and wonderful people here who truly reached out to us and helped.
I believe some of you saw this, better, future long ago, even before we did. When your in the grips of such intense pain and we both were, it's hard to see tomorrow. It's hard to see a future without such pain.

Now our spirits are souring again, we are having happy days and happy times. Sure there are still some painful moments, some painful conversations, but they are NOT the norm now.

My new avatar shows a path into the sun. That is the very path EI and I will take to reach the spot where we will renew our vows next year. It's a beautiful spot overlooking a lake. I anxiously await that day.

Reconciliation is possible, it takes work though, and lots of talking, lots of understanding and compassion. One thing EI and I had, even in the pain and anger, was compassion. We still cared for each other. In all the mess and in the wake of destruction we still cared. That care took on a new life and grew into love. As EI has said, we had compassion the slowly turned into passion.

EI still has to forgive herself, she still has to let go of what she did. She is having a very hard time with that. I still have some growing to do also, some more maturing. I am currently reading a lot of self help books, the current one is think and grow rich by Napolean Hill. I have read several others all relating to changing yourself for the better. Think and grow rich by the way is about far more than riches, it's about changing the way you think. It's $6 on Kindle and worth it.

I understand why EI did what she did and EI understands why I did what I did.
This does not make it right or ok, it does not justify what we did to each other. It simply means we understand, we get it, and that helps in the healing process. This is crucial, I believe to truly R.

We brought a truly dead marriage back to life and that my friends is an amazing thing. I don't think it would have been possible without TAM, this thread, and the wisdom of so many, I really don't.

In case you have not figured it out yet, I am happy and happily married to the love of my life. Life still has some challenges ahead for us, we still have some tough things to deal with, but we will deal with them as husband and wife and that's a wonderful thing. I am blessed to have EI in my life and as my wife.

I am still not hanging out on TAM these days. I am staying busy and spending my free time reading. I am doing well and I don't want to, potentially, hurt that. I am not stupid, it's still only been a year and 2 months since Dday, So, I am cautious, happy but cautious, and I am not wanting to bring TAM triggers into my life just yet.

btw: Another book that I am reading and I think it could help others is: Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life: The New Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

Why all the reading? I still have changing to do, I need to live life and be all I can be. I have lived the last 10 or so years as a shell of a man, I lived reacting only, never being pro-active. I was inhibited and neglectful to everyone including myself. 
I will never live that way again.

Take care all..
B1 out..


----------



## GreenThumb

B1 said:


> Good morning all...
> 
> Wow...this thread is almost a year old!
> 
> I started this thread almost a year ago and then I was in so much pain it's hard to believe I ever made it this far. Then, I was grabbing for straws, I was needing input, help, understanding, guidance, wisdom and I needed to share my pain because it was just too much to handle on my own. God I really hurt back then.
> 
> What a difference a year makes. EI and I are doing great now, we have both grown so much and come along way. We are finally one flesh again. I made the right decision in deciding to R and EI did too. We both had to learn to trust again. I had to trust that she would never have an A again, and she had to trust that I wouldn't go back to my neglectful ways. I crushed her spirit over the course of many years, she crushed mine in one single blow. We were two flawed beings in a huge mess and making it messier.
> 
> We climbed out of that mess with the help of so many on this thread. I believe we got more from TAM then we did from counselling. There are so many wise and wonderful people here who truly reached out to us and helped.
> I believe some of you saw this, better, future long ago, even before we did. When your in the grips of such intense pain and we both were, it's hard to see tomorrow. It's hard to see a future without such pain.
> 
> Now our spirits are souring again, we are having happy days and happy times. Sure there are still some painful moments, some painful conversations, but they are NOT the norm now.
> 
> My new avatar shows a path into the sun. That is the very path EI and I will take to reach the spot where we will renew our vows next year. It's a beautiful spot overlooking a lake. I anxiously await that day.
> 
> Reconciliation is possible, it takes work though, and lots of talking, lots of understanding and compassion. One thing EI and I had, even in the pain and anger, was compassion. We still cared for each other. In all the mess and in the wake of destruction we still cared. That care took on a new life and grew into love. As EI has said, we had compassion the slowly turned into passion.
> 
> EI still has to forgive herself, she still has to let go of what she did. She is having a very hard time with that. I still have some growing to do also, some more maturing. I am currently reading a lot of self help books, the current one is think and grow rich by Napolean Hill. I have read several others all relating to changing yourself for the better. Think and grow rich by the way is about far more than riches, it's about changing the way you think. It's $6 on Kindle and worth it.
> 
> I understand why EI did what she did and EI understands why I did what I did.
> This does not make it right or ok, it does not justify what we did to each other. It simply means we understand, we get it, and that helps in the healing process. This is crucial, I believe to truly R.
> 
> We brought a truly dead marriage back to life and that my friends is an amazing thing. I don't think it would have been possible without TAM, this thread, and the wisdom of so many, I really don't.
> 
> In case you have not figured it out yet, I am happy and happily married to the love of my life. Life still has some challenges ahead for us, we still have some tough things to deal with, but we will deal with them as husband and wife and that's a wonderful thing. I am blessed to have EI in my life and as my wife.
> 
> I am still not hanging out on TAM these days. I am staying busy and spending my free time reading. I am doing well and I don't want to, potentially, hurt that. I am not stupid, it's still only been a year and 2 months since Dday, So, I am cautious, happy but cautious, and I am not wanting to bring TAM triggers into my life just yet.
> 
> btw: Another book that I am reading and I think it could help others is: Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life: The New Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
> 
> Why all the reading? I still have changing to do, I need to live life and be all I can be. I have lived the last 10 or so years as a shell of a man, I lived reacting only, never being pro-active. I was inhibited and neglectful to everyone including myself.
> I will never live that way again.
> 
> Take care all..
> B1 out..


B1, 

Thank you for sharing your R story and insights. It is an inspiration to me as I contemplate R or D after DDay of mid 
May. 

I am so happy that you and E1 are making it happen and wish nothing but the best for both of you in your journey together!


----------



## happyman64

Good update B1. 

I am sure with your continued support EI will find the courage and strength to forgive herself. In some cases forgiveness is hardest gift one can give themselves. 

I am so glad you two are continuing your adventure together. 

HM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> They don't have a clue of the torment and anguish you are going through - they just blithely carry on being normal and happy. They are the ones that did wrong, yet you're the one being punished, every single sodding day.


We waywards may not suffer as much as those we've betrayed, and of course it was our (the wayward's) own fault that it all happened, but I wouldn't say that we're clueless of the torment and anguish, or that we blithely carry on being normal and happy or escape punishment. I feel plenty punished (even though GF doesn't consider me properly punished), and I don't feel normal OR happy, and I haven't for a long time. I've thought of suicide a lot, have hurt myself and been sorely tempted to hurt myself some more. I feel like a totally worthless person now when before I only felt _mostly_ worthless. I've felt miserable on so many different levels over this. It adds to the running commentary in my head I always have about how bad and ugly I am, how I should destroy myself so I don't contaminate anyone or keep hurting the people I care about, so that I'll stop doing and having to live with things I hate. I'm the expendable one, not GF.

I know it's tempting to make those generalizations of how waywards don't suffer at all or have any feelings about the betrayal, but it's simply not true. When we betray and hurt those we love, we betray and hurt ourselves, too. In the end, the betrayed can decide to get rid of the wayward and start again with someone better, but the wayward can never dispose of themselves (unless they take drastic action). Some of us have already abandoned ourselves as much as possible while still alive, and maybe that's part of our problem. How do you avoid abandoning others when you are in the habit of abandoning yourself? Which is why therapy is good.

I am in therapy for GF. To become a better person and a better partner for her if she still wants me. (Because I don't care about myself for my own sake, and left to my own devices I would probably just finish self-destructing.) I know I need to work on myself and also on developing an internal feedback loop and self-validation. But for now, that's why I'm there. Because she means everything to me, even though I nearly (or maybe I have) destroyed it all.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Clarification soulpotato, REMORSEFUL waywards feel that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

TCSRedhead said:


> Clarification soulpotato, REMORSEFUL waywards feel that way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, that's what I meant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



B1 said:


> Good morning all...
> 
> Wow...this thread is almost a year old!
> 
> I started this thread almost a year ago and then I was in so much pain it's hard to believe I ever made it this far. Then, I was grabbing for straws, I was needing input, help, understanding, guidance, wisdom and I needed to share my pain because it was just too much to handle on my own. God I really hurt back then.
> 
> What a difference a year makes. EI and I are doing great now, we have both grown so much and come along way. We are finally one flesh again. I made the right decision in deciding to R and EI did too. We both had to learn to trust again. I had to trust that she would never have an A again, and she had to trust that I wouldn't go back to my neglectful ways. I crushed her spirit over the course of many years, she crushed mine in one single blow. We were two flawed beings in a huge mess and making it messier.
> 
> We climbed out of that mess with the help of so many on this thread. I believe we got more from TAM then we did from counselling. There are so many wise and wonderful people here who truly reached out to us and helped.
> I believe some of you saw this, better, future long ago, even before we did. When your in the grips of such intense pain and we both were, it's hard to see tomorrow. It's hard to see a future without such pain.
> 
> Now our spirits are souring again, we are having happy days and happy times. Sure there are still some painful moments, some painful conversations, but they are NOT the norm now.
> 
> My new avatar shows a path into the sun. That is the very path EI and I will take to reach the spot where we will renew our vows next year. It's a beautiful spot overlooking a lake. I anxiously await that day.
> 
> Reconciliation is possible, it takes work though, and lots of talking, lots of understanding and compassion. One thing EI and I had, even in the pain and anger, was compassion. We still cared for each other. In all the mess and in the wake of destruction we still cared. That care took on a new life and grew into love. As EI has said, we had compassion the slowly turned into passion.
> 
> EI still has to forgive herself, she still has to let go of what she did. She is having a very hard time with that. I still have some growing to do also, some more maturing. I am currently reading a lot of self help books, the current one is think and grow rich by Napolean Hill. I have read several others all relating to changing yourself for the better. Think and grow rich by the way is about far more than riches, it's about changing the way you think. It's $6 on Kindle and worth it.
> 
> I understand why EI did what she did and EI understands why I did what I did.
> This does not make it right or ok, it does not justify what we did to each other. It simply means we understand, we get it, and that helps in the healing process. This is crucial, I believe to truly R.
> 
> We brought a truly dead marriage back to life and that my friends is an amazing thing. I don't think it would have been possible without TAM, this thread, and the wisdom of so many, I really don't.
> 
> In case you have not figured it out yet, I am happy and happily married to the love of my life. Life still has some challenges ahead for us, we still have some tough things to deal with, but we will deal with them as husband and wife and that's a wonderful thing. I am blessed to have EI in my life and as my wife.
> 
> I am still not hanging out on TAM these days. I am staying busy and spending my free time reading. I am doing well and I don't want to, potentially, hurt that. I am not stupid, it's still only been a year and 2 months since Dday, So, I am cautious, happy but cautious, and I am not wanting to bring TAM triggers into my life just yet.
> 
> btw: Another book that I am reading and I think it could help others is: Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life: The New Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
> 
> Why all the reading? I still have changing to do, I need to live life and be all I can be. I have lived the last 10 or so years as a shell of a man, I lived reacting only, never being pro-active. I was inhibited and neglectful to everyone including myself.
> I will never live that way again.
> 
> Take care all..
> B1 out..


Not ashamed to say this. Totally tearing up right now reading this. Love you guys.


----------



## CantSitStill

Soulpotato I also thought of suicide. I was ready to do it so that I wouldn't be a burden anymore. I thought that would be the solution to make calvin happy. I had a bottle of sleeping pills hidden under the couch and he found them. He made me promise to b
Never do it. I was wrong in thinking that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GreenThumb

soulpotato said:


> We waywards may not suffer as much as those we've betrayed, and of course it was our (the wayward's) own fault that it all happened, but I wouldn't say that we're clueless of the torment and anguish, or that we blithely carry on being normal and happy or escape punishment. I feel plenty punished (even though GF doesn't consider me properly punished), and I don't feel normal OR happy, and I haven't for a long time. I've thought of suicide a lot, have hurt myself and been sorely tempted to hurt myself some more. I feel like a totally worthless person now when before I only felt _mostly_ worthless. I've felt miserable on so many different levels over this. It adds to the running commentary in my head I always have about how bad and ugly I am, how I should destroy myself so I don't contaminate anyone or keep hurting the people I care about, so that I'll stop doing and having to live with things I hate. I'm the expendable one, not GF.
> 
> I know it's tempting to make those generalizations of how waywards don't suffer at all or have any feelings about the betrayal, but it's simply not true. When we betray and hurt those we love, we betray and hurt ourselves, too. In the end, the betrayed can decide to get rid of the wayward and start again with someone better, but the wayward can never dispose of themselves (unless they take drastic action). Some of us have already abandoned ourselves as much as possible while still alive, and maybe that's part of our problem. How do you avoid abandoning others when you are in the habit of a bandoning yourself? Which is why therapy is good.
> 
> I am in therapy for GF. To become a better person and a better partner for her if she still wants me. (Because I don't care about myself for my own sake, and left to my own devices I would probably just finish self-destructing.) I know I need to work on myself and also on developing an internal feedback loop and self-validation. But for now, that's why I'm there. Because she means everything to me, even though I nearly (or maybe I haver) destroyed it all.


Soul potato, 
Thank you for your heartfelt response. Without responses like yours, BSs may be more likely to misunderstand how their remorseful WSs truly feel. Like Acabado and Robisia described, it can appear to BSs that the WS is carrying on blithely and happily. This may be the case with unremorseful WSs as TCSRed pointed out. However, even with remorseful WSs, it may nf difficult to anyone including BSs to see or ascertain their remorse unless they are literally wearing it on their sleeves, shoulders, and any other body part 24/7 which is often how I feel I'm wearing my betrayal. For me it's depth and magnitude of the emotion. 

My WH and I have both contemplated suicide aloud to each other once after DDay. Both of us were in the deep throes of painful despair that at that moment felt inescapable. Of course, we both also realized the utter selfishness of those thoughts. Having once tried to commit suicide as a teenager, all those feelings of helpless worthlessness came flooding back. 

I'm so happy to know you're getting healthy with your GF. WH, daughter and I are all in IC now and striving to do the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

OK, so probably some WSs won't like this, but its what I feel so I'm going to say it. Yes, the WS may well feel bad about things. They may well suffer. But I honestly do not think it is the same suffering. And i stand by my assertion that they do not have a clue how it feels to be on the other side, just as we don't really know how they feel.

And, after all, their suffering is self-inflicted. They didn't have to cheat.


----------



## mintypeas

hello everyone been away and just working on us. but I have news my fwh. has surprised me by asking me to renew our vows on our wedding anniversary 19th Sept but he has to propose first so I might say yes!! I was dreading our wedding anniversary but now I'm so looking forward to it!! it will be just us and the children and then a nice meal afterwards so nothing big but its what we want xx I hope you are all well and I'm always thinking of you all. xx


----------



## bfree

Robsia said:


> OK, so probably some WSs won't like this, but its what I feel so I'm going to say it. Yes, the WS may well feel bad about things. They may well suffer. But I honestly do not think it is the same suffering. And i stand by my assertion that they do not have a clue how it feels to be on the other side, just as we don't really know how they feel.
> 
> And, after all, their suffering is self-inflicted. They didn't have to cheat.


You know Robsia. For much of my life that was my very thinking. And it makes sense considering that I (and you) were betrayed in the most horrible way. But then I saw what remorseful fWS went through and my feelings changed somewhat. When we were betrayed our trust was shattered. When they betrayed their trust in themselves was shattered. We feel like they should be punished and it can't be enough. They feel like they should be punished and it can never be enough. The shock and anger we feel can be all encompassing and at times it can feel like its crushing you. The guilt and powerlessness they feel can be so overwhelming and the weight of that guilt seems like it can never be lifted and they can never get out from underneath it. So you are right when you say that it is not the same suffering that we feel. But it is suffering nonetheless and it can be just as debilitating.

I'm not you and I don't see Big Mac on a frequent basis. But if you read the posts from EI, CantSitStill, Soulpotato, Red, and others you can feel their pain. And look at B1's last update. He's doing really well. He's pretty much got past "it." But EI is still having problems forgiving herself. I think that is very typical. So maybe a BS's pain is more intense but it seems to be shorter in duration. A fWS's pain may not be as excruciating but it certainly seems to hang on a lot longer.

Or it could be that I'm just getting softer in my old age.


----------



## Robsia

> So maybe a BS's pain is more intense but it seems to be shorter in duration. A fWS's pain may not be as excruciating but it certainly seems to hang on a lot longer.


Well, I'll have to let you know. Nearly five months in, it still f***ing hurts.


----------



## Mr Blunt

*B1
Your update post is inspiring!

I have to comment on a few lines:.*

*



We both had to learn to trust again

Click to expand...

**I underlined LEARN because learning to trust MUST have positive ACTIONS by both partners. Actions such as putting steel shelled around your heart or revenge will kill trust.
Actions that hold on to love pay off in the end.*


*



One thing EI and I had, even in the pain and anger, was compassion. We still cared for each other

Click to expand...

**That is proof that real love can defeat great pain. We often here words about how great love is but B1 and EI has shared with us the power of love. Huey Lewis and the News sang about it but B1 and EI showed us in living color the real deal! 
B1’s statement below says it all*
*



We brought a truly dead marriage back to life and that my friends are an amazing thing.

Click to expand...

*



*On the practical side (Also very important) B1 has shown us that he is also smart*
*



I am not stupid, it's still only been a year and 2 months since Dday, So, I am cautious, happy but cautious, and I am not wanting to bring TAM triggers into my life just yet.

Click to expand...

*
*I probably speak for all of us but I know I speak for myself when I say; some of the most interesting posts came from B1 and EI and I looked forward to reading them. However, B1 is doing the EXEACT thing that he should do for himself and his family by staying away from TAM triggers. If I can be TAM triggered every now and then after 25 years of R then I know that B1 and EI can also. B1 and EI’s relationship and family are a million times more important than TAM*



*



I still have changing to do

Click to expand...

*T
*hose words come from a man with wisdom and a man that has the EXACT RIGHT ATTITUDE. You have heard that saying a million times of “You cannot change anyone you can only change yourself”. B1 is proving that doing that can bring about so much positive and their victories are showing that to be true*.



*B1’s statement above brought to my memory John Newton’s words of*
"I am not what I ought to be. I am not what I want to be. I am not what I hope to be. But still, I am not what I used to be and by the grace of God I am what I am”

*John Newton is the author of the song Amazing Grace*


----------



## SomedayDig

Thanks, B1. You and EI have done a ton of hard work and those who are working on reconciliation are the better for your story which has been played out here.

I find myself in a bit of the same place. With Regret's and my move 1400 miles away from home, we have bonded so much in just a couple weeks. We bonded during our reconciliation, however this has been more mortar added to the foundation of our new life together.

My little update, sprinkled with some history and flaky feelings.

Even just a few weeks ago I couldn't get off my couch. I had sat there since March 6, 2012. I sat there so long, that there was a huge depression in the cusion. I am not kidding. When I would stand up to go to bed I would look at the couch and see the place where I had sat for so f'ng long. And it hurt me every night. But I just could NOT get up. I did not want to be anywhere else in the house. Oddly enough, the place on the couch that I sat was closest to the furthest corner of the house.

My own place. A place where they did not ever go or sit.

As a betrayed spouse, I can only say that things our wayward spouses did were not only horrible, but they left an imprint - like my ass on the couch - in our minds that cannot be erased. This is much worse if any kind of affair took place in your home. See...even though Regret never went to our bedroom...even if there was some kind of odd "moral" thought during her affair and a line she wouldn't cross...she still brought the xOM to my home. She still made out with him in the kitchen and the second living room before they ventured down to the basement to have sex. Those things were still done in my home. My castle. My sanctuary.

And she f-cked that up big time.

So, I couldn't get off that couch. I didn't want to. It was the only place that I had to go that was "safe".

Today, I'm sitting in a place - a new apartment - 1400 miles away. The shadows that lurked in every corner are gone. The spectre of her affair which loomed in almost every corner of my home is no longer hovering over my shoulder. The constant trigger has been removed.

That doesn't make it okay, though. Regret and I still have things to work on. Things to work through.

It's just a bit easier now being so far removed from everything else about the affair.

We bought new furniture for our apartment.

We left the couch in New York with my ass print.

I'm finally off the couch.


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato I also thought of suicide. I was ready to do it so that I wouldn't be a burden anymore. I thought that would be the solution to make calvin happy. I had a bottle of sleeping pills hidden under the couch and he found them. He made me promise to b
> Never do it. I was wrong in thinking that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know most people think of it as being selfish, but I think for people like you and I, we are often thinking that we would have been sparing others by being gone. It's about feeling like a burden and not wanting to be burdensome to the people we care about.


----------



## soulpotato

Robsia said:


> OK, so probably some WSs won't like this, but its what I feel so I'm going to say it. Yes, the WS may well feel bad about things. They may well suffer. But I honestly do not think it is the same suffering. And i stand by my assertion that they do not have a clue how it feels to be on the other side, just as we don't really know how they feel.
> 
> And, after all, their suffering is self-inflicted. They didn't have to cheat.


I don't think any of us (remorseful) former waywards would claim that we suffer as greatly as those we've betrayed. And it is, of course, different. Even sharing the human experience, all of us feel things a little differently, so no two people feel the same exact anything in the first place. 

I think our suffering still matters, even if it is self-inflicted (I should say that in some cases, part of it is self-inflicted - through the cheating - but we're not 100% responsible for all of the pre-cheating relationship fail, just our 50%). You're right that we didn't have to cheat. Yet I doubt most of us RFWs woke up one day and consciously made the decision to cheat, or ever intended to. (There's a prevalent attitude that the decision to cheat is something that is always carefully and consciously weighed and considered at length.) At any rate, we're here doing our best to help deal with the aftermath.

For my part, I guess I should have just left GF when all my attempts at talking about my unhappiness and asking for different behavior got me nowhere but slapped down and told I was too needy. But I love/d her, and I stupidly thought I could just fill in the "holes" (more like an underground cave-in) with some friends, like everyone else seems to do. But I failed to realize how risky that was, especially for someone like me with poor boundaries and unhealthy, warped concepts of how relationships go. By the time I realized I was actually in trouble (mired in my EAs and wreaking further havoc on my relationship with GF), I felt too ashamed and scared to get help. I just kept running from myself. (Until last year.)

I never meant to hurt her or betray her. I just wanted to feel ok. What a nightmare resulted from that.


----------



## Acabado

SomedayDig said:


> I'm finally off the couch.


:smthumbup:


----------



## EI

Robsia said:


> OK, so probably some WSs won't like this, but its what I feel so I'm going to say it. Yes, the WS may well feel bad about things. They may well suffer. But I honestly do not think it is the same suffering. And i stand by my assertion that they do not have a clue how it feels to be on the other side, just as we don't really know how they feel.
> 
> And, after all, their suffering is self-inflicted. They didn't have to cheat.



You know, Robsia, I think it's important to note that when a successful reconciliation is the desired outcome, that the WHOLE relationship has to be able to heal, not just the BS's pain from their WS's betrayal. 

Since you share your thoughts and feelings, here, with such unfiltered honesty I am going to assume that you would prefer feedback with the same unfiltered honesty. Most WS's who post on TAM for any length of time fall into the category of "remorseful former wayward spouses." Those who are neither remorseful or "former" WS's don't stick around TAM very long because it can be a very hostile environment. But those who do are the ones who are genuinely contrite and we have been conditioned by TAM to "tread lightly," around here. Interestingly enough I was, occasionally, criticized for being too honest in my earlier days on TAM and later, indirectly, for not being honest enough. So, I'm simply going to respond to your comment(s) in the same manner in which you respond to and about WS's.

I can't speak for any other former WS's with absolute certainty, but I highly suspect that there are other remorseful WS's who feel as I do. Because we are remorseful, we are most likely extremely aware of (if not able to completely "feel") the intense suffering that our BS's feel. The truly remorseful WS is doing everything we possibly can to help our spouses heal, along with healing ourselves and working on the personal issues that we used to justify our infidelity. Because even if, as you say, our suffering is self-inflicted, we will not be of much value to our spouses, children and other loved ones, if we spend our entire lives wallowing in the misery of the situation that we created. So, in addition to helping our spouse heal, we also bear the greatest share of the burden of healing ourselves. If we went into the infidelity as flawed, weakened, vulnerable human beings, we certainly did not come out better for it. So, we find ourselves in a very challenging predicament, usually, without much of a support system, as the vast majority of support is reserved for the BS's, particularly, in the very early days and weeks after D-Day. Unfortunately, that is when most WS's are the most vulnerable for all kinds of problems to arise. Now, if you plan to divorce your WS, then that's not your problem. But, if you desire to successfully reconcile, then it's essential that you understand that by continuously reminding your WS that your hurt outweighs their hurt and that everything is ALL the fault of the WS and that it is ALL on the WS's shoulders to fix the complete disaster that the relationship has become, that your chances of a truly successful, lasting and happy reconciliation are going to be slim to none.

Real reconciliation takes 100% of the effort of both spouses. There is no other way around it. If the unfairness of that is too much for a BS to bear, then it is likely that the damage from the infidelity, along with whatever pre-A issues existed, is too great to overcome and the marriage will likely end now or later after even more hurt is inflicted on the relationship. 

I do want to respond to this specific comment of yours: *"And, after all, their suffering is self-inflicted. They didn't have to cheat."* I cannot argue with your last sentence. No one HAS to cheat. That is 100% accurate. THAT choice IS all of the WS's shoulders. And, for me, it is a heavy burden to bear. In choosing to be unfaithful as a means of coping with my extreme unhappiness and sense of hopelessness, I gave away a part of myself that I cannot ever get back. The best I can do is use the knowledge that I gained about myself to become a better person than I am today. I've still got a long way to go. I realize that more and more every day. But, your first sentence is not completely accurate. Yes, some of my suffering was self-inflicted, the suffering that I live with everyday because of my decision to be unfaithful. But, I suffered a Hell of a lot, more than I can find the words to accurately describe, from the long-term effects of emotional and physical neglect from my BS, before I was unfaithful. Did it justify my cheating? No, it absolutely did not. I was not only unfaithful to my spouse, but to my children and myself, as well. It can be very debilitating. If B1 had chosen to spend this last year comparing pain and insisting that his was greater than mine, rather than working with me on repairing our marriage, ourselves and helping one another heal from the damage that we both contributed to our relationship, then we would no longer be in this relationship. That may not be the case for everyone. Maybe some BS's are completely blameless victims, guilty only of picking the wrong partner. In that case, get out, figure out why you have a "picking problem," and pick better next time. Otherwise, during a reconciliation it's probably best to start working on the "(wo)man in the mirror" first.

Robsia, there is something that I don't recall you mentioning in this thread that you did write about in another. You have often spoken about the value of honesty in this thread. You even gave me a bit of a dressing down for suggesting that you not always be immediately available for Big Mac's phone calls or texts after he has punished you with his silence for several days in a row when you anger him by talking about his affairs, too much. I suggested that you should wait a while when he finally does respond and tell him that you were "busy" earlier. You told me that you could not lie and that if you did, you would be just as guilty as he was. So, it makes me curious as to how you justified lying to him about your work before you got married. You write erotica for a living. He told you before your wedding that he would not marry a woman who wrote erotica for a living. So, you told him that you no longer wrote it, and that you now only edited the writing of others. But, that wasn't true. You never stopped writing it. You admitted that it caused issues for him with his very religious family. Do you suppose that he wonders/wondered what else you might be keeping from him if you kept this from him? It wasn't even lying by omission. You blatantly told him that you would quit writing erotica and that you would edit, only. He told you BEFORE the wedding that your continued writing would be a deal breaker for him. How do you justify that? I'm just curious. 

I have my thoughts as to why your reconciliation isn't coming along as you would like. But, if I'm wrong, then I believe your hope for a reconciliation may need to start with the (wo)man in the mirror. If you are as adamant about putting and keeping Big Mac in his place for his wrong doings as you are with the WS's on TAM, then you may discover that his lack of effort is due to his belief that he can NEVER give you enough remorse to satisfy your needs. He may simply not be willing to put in the incredible effort it would take to try. He may also be resentful that you lied to him about something that he was extremely clear about BEFORE your wedding. Are you owning your contribution to the state of your pre-A marriage? And, not just in lip service, but really owning it? Don't answer me. Just think about it.

That's my two cents worth for a while.


----------



## Robsia

> Robsia, there is something that I don't recall you mentioning in this thread that you did write about in another. You have often spoken about that value of honesty in this thread. You even gave me a bit of a dressing down for suggesting that you not always be immediately available for Big Mac's phone calls or texts after he has punished you with his silence for several days in a row when you anger him by talking about his affairs, too much. I suggested that you should wait a while when he finally does respond and tell him that you were "busy" earlier. You told me that you could not lie and that if you did, you would be just as guilty as he was. So, it makes me curious as to how you justified lying to him about your work before you got married. You write erotica for a living. He told you before your wedding that he would not marry a woman who wrote erotica for a living. So, you told him that you no longer wrote it, and that you now only edited the writing of others. But, that wasn't true. You never stopped writing it. You admitted that it caused issues for him with his very religious family. Do you suppose that he wonders/wondered what else you might be keeping from him if you kept this from him? It wasn't even lying by omission. You blatantly told him that you would quit writing erotica and that you would edit, only. He told you BEFORE the wedding that your continued writing would be a deal breaker for him. How do you justify that? I'm just curious.


You have either misremembered what I said, or I expressed myself unclearly. If the latter, then I apologise.


----------



## mintypeas

well my experience of my fwh and his pain is that he will never forgive himself and i can see his pain as he can see mine but mine is easing with time it will always be there like a scab that is healing and i will not allow myself to pick at it and make it a open wound. i have had a lot of hell in my life that is very personal and it could of destroyed me but i will not let anyone or anything make me a victim and i am dealing with this in the same way i will not let this evil enter my relationship anymore!! but fwh is still in a lot of pain and i do understand it maybe im wrong to be concerned about his pain but until he starts to heal in some way how can we start to move on to a new marriage so we do talk about his feelings as well as mine. when we renew our vows its a fresh start so we have work to do but we want this so much that we will work our a!ses off to be happy again!!dont know if any of this makes sense but its difficult to explain how i deal with this i hope someone understands!! lol x


----------



## calvin

I asked for MC three times,shot down each time,I did candy and flowers but
Being turned down for MC to work on us.....I guess it made it pretty damn more painful for me.
The answer was not with another man who tried to give her cheap compliment and one liners.
The POS is still homeless and was out for his own gain.
She wanted him.....unbelievable.
So,yeah.
In my case I know it hurt me pretty damn bad,nothing I could do,she was hooked.
It took some very tough love for her to see.
The good thing is.....she sees clearly now,she didnt then.
I know both hurt if the WS is remorseful but.......it almost killed me and my kids
came close to being in contact with an ex con loser piece o sh!t.
Hurt? Hell yes it did,still can sometmes.
Temporary insanity on her part?
Kinda seems like it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

All I know is that as a former WS my husband can never look at me the same way again. It kills me inside. I am crying daily for my sin tword him. There is nothing that will erase what I did. Still wishing for that time machine but the reality is..it will never be the same. I accept that and will continue to be a better wife for the rest of our lives. I will forever be faithful, love and cherish him. Yes even when he is having bad bad thoughts about me. I will forever have to live with that consequence of my making that bad choice. It is what it is but I will never give up on calvin. He is mg number one priority.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

My wife cried this morning before work.. some days, she just wakes up with no hope, and depressed.

When I ask why, she says that she just can't believe she would do all those horrible things and some days it's just so hard to wake up and look in the mirror and realize what she'd done.

She's been trying so hard, and I really have to credit her for being honest and not gas-lighting or blame-shifting in the tradition of her mother and grandmother.. 

I can see it in her eyes how devastated she is. She now realizes what she had that she almost tossed out. Not just the home and financials, but a husband that cherished her to the point where he's willing to R, after she abused me for half a decade.

She feels cheap, used, disappointed in herself, selfish, cruel.

She tells me things every day like 'thank you for giving me one more day with you' and how she feels like she's undeserving for me giving her another chance, and wonders if she should leave to make it easier for me to heal since her being there is just reminding me of the pain. She doesn't want to hurt me any more, even if that means her having to move out. She's afraid that it's not being fair to me and she's being selfish. I have to remind her that I chose to R and if she's willing to work with me, that's what I want. That her being honest and telling me what really happened, and questioning it, is helping me heal. That I'd rather be a BS who's WS owned her choices and not the BS that has to hear how it was all his fault, how he deserved it etc.. This gives her 0 comfort.

The last couple weeks for me have been very difficult. I've had much anger, and was going through a 'why the hell am I even bothering to help her fix herself and my M after such massive disrespect'.. Feeling like less of a man for choosing to R, and going with compassion and understanding over hate and bitterness. Worrying too much about what other people must think of me, from the 'must be lousy lover if his wife cheated for so long' to the 'what a doormat taking her back'.. I needed to ground myself and fight the negative thoughts.

Basically, when I get to these bad places, I withdraw into myself and don't want to talk for fear I'll say something hurtful. Well, after a few too many 'are you okay', I give in and start the stream of consciousness... So now I'm taking her hope, and yanking it away. I'm putting doubt in her mind, because I have a need to hurt her. I get so angry, I want to lash out and make sure she feels my pain. Things that I was glad about, like her making an effort to read self help books now make me think 'why now with the self help?' 

After I crush her, and see her pain is real, I feel better about that.. but now I feel horrible for hurting her. I apologize, and she tells me to not apologize because it's her fault I'm so angry. I tell her that I don't want to take away her hope, and I shouldn't go off on her like that. She can't sleep at night after I do this, because she says she spends the night wondering if she is making it harder for me by being there, if she should leave, if I'm just staying because I feel that she's helpless and pathetic and I need to take care of her. All the things I've said that put doubts in her head.. playing out.

At times I'm proud that she's taking the high road now, and not going the other route.. so I try to build her up, and she tries to feel better about herself with self help books.. Then I see her starting to get happy.. to smile, and I think 'it's too soon', and rip it all down.


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## calvin

Quite a post Russell,makes me stop and think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreenThumb

russell28 said:


> My wife cried this morning before work.. some days, she just wakes up with no hope, and depressed.
> 
> When I ask why, she says that she just can't believe she would do all those horrible things and some days it's just so hard to wake up and look in the mirror and realize what she'd done.
> 
> She's been trying so hard, and I really have to credit her for being honest and not gas-lighting or blame-shifting in the tradition of her mother and grandmother..
> 
> I can see it in her eyes how devastated she is. She now realizes what she had that she almost tossed out. Not just the home and financials, but a husband that cherished her to the point where he's willing to R, after she abused me for half a decade.
> 
> She feels cheap, used, disappointed in herself, selfish, cruel.
> 
> She tells me things every day like 'thank you for giving me one more day with you' and how she feels like she's undeserving for me giving her another chance, and wonders if she should leave to make it easier for me to heal since her being there is just reminding me of the pain. She doesn't want to hurt me any more, even if that means her having to move out. She's afraid that it's not being fair to me and she's being selfish. I have to remind her that I chose to R and if she's willing to work with me, that's what I want. That her being honest and telling me what really happened, and questioning it, is helping me heal. That I'd rather be a BS who's WS owned her choices and not the BS that has to hear how it was all his fault, how he deserved it etc.. This gives her 0 comfort.
> 
> The last couple weeks for me have been very difficult. I've had much anger, and was going through a 'why the hell am I even bothering to help her fix herself and my M after such massive disrespect'.. Feeling like less of a man for choosing to R, and going with compassion and understanding over hate and bitterness. Worrying too much about what other people must think of me, from the 'must be lousy lover if his wife cheated for so long' to the 'what a doormat taking her back'.. I needed to ground myself and fight the negative thoughts.
> 
> Basically, when I get to these bad places, I withdraw into myself and don't want to talk for fear I'll say something hurtful. Well, after a few too many 'are you okay', I give in and start the stream of consciousness... So now I'm taking her hope, and yanking it away. I'm putting doubt in her mind, because I have a need to hurt her. I get so angry, I want to lash out and make sure she feels my pain. Things that I was glad about, like her making an effort to read self help books now make me think 'why now with the self help?'
> 
> After I crush her, and see her pain is real, I feel better about that.. but now I feel horrible for hurting her. I apologize, and she tells me to not apologize because it's her fault I'm so angry. I tell her that I don't want to take away her hope, and I shouldn't go off on her like that. She can't sleep at night after I do this, because she says she spends the night wondering if she is making it harder for me by being there, if she should leave, if I'm just staying because I feel that she's helpless and pathetic and I need to take care of her. All the things I've said that put doubts in her head.. playing out.
> 
> At times I'm proud that she's taking the high road now, and not going the other route.. so I try to build her up, and she tries to feel better about herself with self help books.. Then I see her starting to get happy.. to smile, and I think 'it's too soon', and rip it all down.


Russell, 

I can identify with so much of what you've posted here. Thank you. 

Day by day...


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## calvin

GreenThumb said:


> Russell,
> 
> I can identify with so much of what you've posted here. Thank you.
> 
> Day by day...


I can also dig what Russell said.
The main ingredient in any R to be successful is a remorseful spouse
W
who understands the pain they caused and how determined they are to fix it.
Russell's wife seems to "get it" as does mine,CSS,Red,soulpotatoe,Changing Me,EI, and more.
I'm sorry if you all dont come to mind right now,I'm having a good day.
My 19 year old daughter was promoted to manager at McDonalds today,she has been
There three years,very proud,sheNs a good kid.
I dont beat up on CSS but sometimes some things slip when I think too much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> Basically, when I get to these bad places, I withdraw into myself and don't want to talk for fear I'll say something hurtful. Well, after a few too many 'are you okay', I give in and start the stream of consciousness... So now I'm taking her hope, and yanking it away. I'm putting doubt in her mind, because I have a need to hurt her. I get so angry, I want to lash out and make sure she feels my pain. Things that I was glad about, like her making an effort to read self help books now make me think 'why now with the self help?'
> 
> After I crush her, and see her pain is real, I feel better about that. but now I feel horrible for hurting her. I apologize, and she tells me to not apologize because it's her fault I'm so angry. I tell her that I don't want to take away her hope, and I shouldn't go off on her like that. She can't sleep at night after I do this, because she says she spends the night wondering if she is making it harder for me by being there, if she should leave, if I'm just staying because I feel that she's helpless and pathetic and I need to take care of her. All the things I've said that put doubts in her head.. playing out.
> 
> At times I'm proud that she's taking the high road now, and not going the other route.. so I try to build her up, and she tries to feel better about herself with self help books.. Then I see her starting to get happy.. to smile, and I think 'it's too soon', and rip it all down.


*A very articulate and honest summary of interactions and emotions in the early stages.*

In the mist of all this pain I see a truly remorseful and caring wife and a husband that really has love for his wife. This couple has hope IMO.

Russell
Do not expect every thing to be alright in a matter of months but do know that you both can get a LOT better in the years to come. I do not say that to discourage you but so that you do not have false expectations. I read on this forum somewhere that it takes 4-5 years to fully recover in most areas and that is with doing everything right. However, with two people that really do have a strong connection and compassion for each other, the years that you work at it are well worth it. *You can even become a stronger couple in some areas!!
Your marriage could wind up better than it was before the A*



Blunt


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## Rookie4

Russell, from the voice of experience, you will NEED her to have a sense of self-worth, in the future. Don't continually be tearing her down to make yourself feel better or more in charge. When I divorced my Ex-wife it brought her lower than a snake's belly. she has proven to me all tha I need to heal but has not yet proven to herself that she is worthy. I will never tear down her self esteem. Remember it is low self esteem that causes affairs. Keeping the WS under your thumb, will backfire if your not careful.


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## russell28

Rookie4 said:


> Russell, from the voice of experience, you will NEED her to have a sense of self-worth, in the future. Don't continually be tearing her down to make yourself feel better or more in charge. When I divorced my Ex-wife it brought her lower than a snake's belly. she has proven to me all tha I need to heal but has not yet proven to herself that she is worthy. I will never tear down her self esteem. Remember it is low self esteem that causes affairs. Keeping the WS under your thumb, will backfire if your not careful.


I need to make more of an effort, I agree. I don't want to keep her down.. I want her to build self esteem and to gain self respect.

calvin, my two daughters (yea, the BSN/RN too) and my son all work at Mcdonalds.. Congrats to your daughter!


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## mintypeas

reading your posts makes me wonder if i have been too easy on my fwh. i was brought up with 2 wonderful parents but my father cheated many times and my mother just took it and rug swept all his affairs i dont remember alot as i was young. we are from portugal and the older generation were like this and i still see it happening there. so i wonder if thats why im being so easy on him. but then i do get angry at him if it plays on my mind. as i said before i have had a lot of personal hell that i have had to deal with and become a very strong woman through it so maybe thats why im not letting this beat me down or that poison into my marriage anymore. i want to move forward not stay in a lonely place anymore it was so harmful to me and my children. i see a man before me that i didnt marry 4 years ago a man that truly is in love with me who is truly remorseful and trying so hard to win my heart again this is the man im going to marry in 7 weeks. he willingly admits that he didnt understand what love really was saying i love you was just a habit to say he thought that by saying it he really meant it until now and im sorry but i truly believe him. we have had the advantage of spending over 3 months of being together 24/7 so we have talked cried screamed laughed and enjoyed each other and we are ready to move forward and we cant wait!! sorry im babbling again!! xx


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## cpacan

Mintypeas, we're all different, so there's no right or wrong way to go about this.

Some people just shake their head and move on when they get cheated on, other people cheat back to get even while others can't process their pain and feelings.

If you have processed your pain and feel comfortable with your future relationship with your husband, I don't see why you would need to be angry, just because the rest of us do


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## jupiter13

This is a bad month for me. DDay Aug. 31, 2011. The doctor has confirmed that I am suffering from PTSD and I am reliving ever thing that happened that month yet again. All self-esteem and worth requestioned. We are going through yet another major problem and have to stay strong together yet there is distant from me. He is trying everything but still side stepping some questions or the answers I can not except. I'm not sure if it's me or him or both. Something don't feel right and I can't put my finger on it. I still read everything but not getting any closer to what it is I am looking for. I am still very hurt painfully so. He wants me to have a dream for the future and I can't there is nothing I want nothing I can say I would like to do. Been there done that why do it again? The only thing I have not ever had was a faithful husband and I guess I will never have that from this marriage nor be able to trust anyone so completely. Those are the only two things I wanted from life. How do you get that back? I just don't know anymore. That is when suicide does look a way out but what do I tell my grand-kids? I hate living this way and I hate the life he has made for me now. Too confusing......


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## moxy

jupiter13 said:


> This is a bad month for me. DDay Aug. 31, 2011. The doctor has confirmed that I am suffering from PTSD and I am reliving ever thing that happened that month yet again. All self-esteem and worth requestioned. We are going through yet another major problem and have to stay strong together yet there is distant from me. He is trying everything but still side stepping some questions or the answers I can not except. I'm not sure if it's me or him or both. Something don't feel right and I can't put my finger on it. I still read everything but not getting any closer to what it is I am looking for. I am still very hurt painfully so. He wants me to have a dream for the future and I can't there is nothing I want nothing I can say I would like to do. Been there done that why do it again? The only thing I have not ever had was a faithful husband and I guess I will never have that from this marriage nor be able to trust anyone so completely. Those are the only two things I wanted from life. How do you get that back? I just don't know anymore. That is when suicide does look a way out but what do I tell my grand-kids? I hate living this way and I hate the life he has made for me now. Too confusing......


Have you two tried marriage counseling? Sometimes, an outside observer can help you both see the troubled dynamic more clearly. 

Maybe your unfaithful husband is kind of a jerk who isn't doing enough to help you get past this trouble. Well, he's not the only thing in your life! Maybe...take the energy of that expectation and try to do something nice for yourself with it? You can't change him, but while you're waiting for him to change, you can entertain yourself, right?

By the way, suicide is not a good option. Please don't consider it. What you need is a bit more joy and a bit more distraction, instead.


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## jupiter13

Moxy, yes we have done MC but she said she would not do any more until we both saw IC for our self and he quit smoking pot. You are right that he is not doing enough he needs to address my direct questions instead of side stepping them. I do understand he does not want to talk about it since it makes him feel uncomfortable. However I don't care how it makes him feel and rug-sweeping is what he is trying to do by minimizing whatever happened between them. He claims he was never in love it was the drugs and his need for sex. (I was 2 weeks out from hip replacement, not the first one either.) He was mad at me. Since I have to give up the things I want from life I think the least he can do is give me answers. I have always had problems with self esteem and self worth this did not help. He was fully aware of my past abuse issues since I had worked on them prior to marriage just so I would not bring them into the marriage which would have been a setup to failure from the start. I didn't think that was fair to him. OH I did fail to mention on D Day he beat me. Yes this is how he is when using drugs (hard drugs) so I should have seen that coming since I could tell he was high. My H does have personal issues that are now being addressed but at 2 years out as far as I'm concerned he has drug his feet long enough. What small amount of joy I have has always been in my home and grand kids. The grand kids who were living with us have gone to live with their father about 2 hours away. I have not been able to see them since April and it is breaking my heart. My car has been claimed in the court case against us and so I have no transportation except his old truck. The truck is painful for me to drive, gas hog and it is not mine. There was a hold placed on our accounts hence no money, even my personal account was attached and it is only for my disability check no commingling of funds. This is all his about his behavior with me caught in the middle. We have great attorneys and I know we will get out from under this but in the mean time I am being effected too. Yes I have so many issues going on that it get overwhelming. The PSTD is not helping but I will not take the medications they screw up my ability to think straight. And no suicide is not the way to solve anything I do know this it is just sometimes I would like to go to sleep and not wake up to my reality. Heck sleeping more than 2 -3 hours at a time would be a blessing. As I write this at 3 AM one of my dogs has found me and lays at my feet. What in the world would she do without me and I her. This today is my greatest joy and the loving look from her alone lets me know I am loved. Thank you for being concerned but the easy way out is not in the cards it's just a thought now and then to ease the pain and quiet the tears that flow too easily everyday. I will get through this and need Tam you and others to vent on share and I listen. I have no one else in my life to talk too. I am isolated in the country and not good with people. My distrust for people makes it hard to form friendships, what friends I did have have stepped away from my current issues, mostly him. My bad is I am being negative about everything without a positive thing to say. This alone could push WH away even though I try everyday to give him the attention anyone would give their best friend.


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## biola

jupiter13 said:


> Moxy, yes we have done MC but she said she would not do any more until we both saw IC for our self and he quit smoking pot. You are right that he is not doing enough he needs to address my direct questions instead of side stepping them. I do understand he does not want to talk about it since it makes him feel uncomfortable. However I don't care how it makes him feel and rug-sweeping is what he is trying to do by minimizing whatever happened between them. He claims he was never in love it was the drugs and his need for sex. (I was 2 weeks out from hip replacement, not the first one either.) He was mad at me. Since I have to give up the things I want from life I think the least he can do is give me answers. I have always had problems with self esteem and self worth this did not help. He was fully aware of my past abuse issues since I had worked on them prior to marriage just so I would not bring them into the marriage which would have been a setup to failure from the start. I didn't think that was fair to him. OH I did fail to mention on D Day he beat me. Yes this is how he is when using drugs (hard drugs) so I should have seen that coming since I could tell he was high. My H does have personal issues that are now being addressed but at 2 years out as far as I'm concerned he has drug his feet long enough. What small amount of joy I have has always been in my home and grand kids. The grand kids who were living with us have gone to live with their father about 2 hours away. I have not been able to see them since April and it is breaking my heart. My car has been claimed in the court case against us and so I have no transportation except his old truck. The truck is painful for me to drive, gas hog and it is not mine. There was a hold placed on our accounts hence no money, even my personal account was attached and it is only for my disability check no commingling of funds. This is all his about his behavior with me caught in the middle. We have great attorneys and I know we will get out from under this but in the mean time I am being effected too. Yes I have so many issues going on that it get overwhelming. The PSTD is not helping but I will not take the medications they screw up my ability to think straight. And no suicide is not the way to solve anything I do know this it is just sometimes I would like to go to sleep and not wake up to my reality. Heck sleeping more than 2 -3 hours at a time would be a blessing. As I write this at 3 AM one of my dogs has found me and lays at my feet. What in the world would she do without me and I her. This today is my greatest joy and the loving look from her alone lets me know I am loved. Thank you for being concerned but the easy way out is not in the cards it's just a thought now and then to ease the pain and quiet the tears that flow too easily everyday. I will get through this and need Tam you and others to vent on share and I listen. I have no one else in my life to talk too. I am isolated in the country and not good with people. My distrust for people makes it hard to form friendships, what friends I did have have stepped away from my current issues, mostly him. My bad is I am being negative about everything without a positive thing to say. This alone could push WH away even though I try everyday to give him the attention anyone would give their best friend.


Excuse me,did you just mention he physically assaulted on DDAY and you you're still with him why?Look I'm all for reconciliation in most circumstances,but this is where you should have drew the line.Physical assault is not OK in any circumstances.I don't buy that baloney of him being under the influence of pot.You have to stand your ground on the following: (1)He must qiut the pot before you can daydream about reconciliation with this crackhead! (2)Full transparency in the marriage;no TT,no hidden passwords/accounts e.t.c. This should have been non-negotiable from day one.If he is too belligerent to consider this a fair bargain,then you know where stand on his list of priorities and should file for separation since yesterday.Goodluck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy

Jupiter, in my opinion, beating = game over. You can't reconcile with a person who won't treat you like an equal. You can't change him to be what he should be, either. You can show him what you won't accept -- this behavior; leave him until and unless he demonstrates actual reform. 

You are not an object to be used. You are not deserving of disrespect. And you certainly shouldn't have to tolerate the salt in the wound that is physical abuse upon discovery of his romantic betrayal! 

You miss your grand kids. You're not getting your needs met by this being. You're so drained that you want to sleep and not wake up to this; so...wake up to a new reality! Leave him. Go where you can take care of yourself and see your grand kids and be safe. 

Maybe he will get his act together one day and maybe not, after her realizes that the grass isn't greener on his affair partner's lawn after all, but if you stay with him, things will get worse for you and you are enduring that he had no inventive to change these abusive ways. Leave him.


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## russell28

Withdrawls from smoking pot can cause aggression, anxiety, depression, loss of appetite etc.. So if he does quit, and he's a violent enough person that he's aggressive when he's already on pot.. That could be a dangerous scenario. I'd talk to a substance abuse pro.. get help getting him off the pot.


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## CantSitStill

Let's just face it..the chances that people actually reconcile and make it are very slim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

CantSitStill said:


> Let's just face it..the chances that people actually reconcile and make it are very slim.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what? Does that mean it's not worth the effort? If 1 out of every 100 people can recover from a disease, is it not worth treating the disease because 99 people die?

If someone has the guts and the heart to attempt an honest reconciliation, I believe they will feel more satisfied at the end of their journey, even if the reconciliation is unsuccessful. They did what was in them to do. They worked to build a future that they wanted. No one can do that single-handedly. Not a WS or a BS. So, yes, reconciliations fail. But how do you know if you're the 1 or the 99 if you don't try?

P.S. Clearly I suck at staying away from here.


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## CEL

You really are inspirational Mrs thank you for those words. I always liked the saying "some goals are so worthy it is glorious even to fail". Thank you for not staying away you and your husband are always in my hopes


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## CEL

Sorry men don't hit women EVER. Yes you have the rare case of fighting back but this is so rare as to be the proverbial exception that makes the rule. If I was a women and the guy cheated and assaulted me that would be one dead man by daybreak!!! And if I was her brother that would be one dead man by daybreak!!!


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## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by CantSitStill *Let's just face it..the chances that people actually reconcile and make it are very slim.
> Posted via Mobile Device
> 
> 
> *Reply by Mrs M*
> So what? Does that mean it's not worth the effort? If 1 out of every 100 people can recover from a disease, is it not worth treating the disease because 99 people die?
> 
> If someone has the guts and the heart to attempt an honest reconciliation, I believe they will feel more satisfied at the end of their journey, even if the reconciliation is unsuccessful. They did what was in them to do. They worked to build a future that they wanted. No one can do that single-handedly. Not a WS or a BS. So, yes, reconciliations fail. But how do you know if you're the 1 or the 99 if you don't try?
> 
> P.S. Clearly I suck at staying away from here.




GOOD RESPONSE MRS M!

*I do not buy the 1 out of every 100!!*

If the couple had a real connection and affection for each other then R is a lot better than 1 out of 100. Of course that is also based on the fact that they both want to R and give it a serious and long term effort.

As terrible as infidelity is; it is horrible, disgusting, will nuke a relationship but it can be amazing what two semi healthy people can do when they have had a love base at one time and take the right steps. 

After I wrote the above I realized that those words were just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. So I did a short research and found immediately that the 1 out of 100 is way off!

*In fact the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy reports it is 31 out of 100. That is a LOT higher than 1%*


> Only 31 percent of marriages last after an affair has been discovered, says the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy
> Most marriages don't survive infidelity - MSN Living


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## Refuse to be played

CEL said:


> Sorry men don't hit women EVER. Yes you have the rare case of fighting back but this is so rare as to be the proverbial exception that makes the rule. If I was a women and the guy cheated and assaulted me that would be one dead man by daybreak!!! And if I was her brother that would be one dead man by daybreak!!!


:iagree: God have mercy on whatever scumbag that would put his hands on my baby sister, because I won't.


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## Acabado

Mrs_Mathias said:


> So what? Does that mean it's not worth the effort? If 1 out of every 100 people can recover from a disease, is it not worth treating the disease because 99 people die?
> 
> If someone has the guts and the heart to attempt an honest reconciliation, I believe they will feel more satisfied at the end of their journey, even if the reconciliation is unsuccessful. They did what was in them to do. They worked to build a future that they wanted. No one can do that single-handedly. Not a WS or a BS. So, yes, reconciliations fail. But how do you know if you're the 1 or the 99 if you don't try?
> 
> P.S. Clearly I suck at staying away from here.


Well, that's determination.

Love it.

Glad to hear about you Mrs, specially in those terms. Almost scared me!


Whether it has an obvious impact on Dr. he's really absorbing it. It's healing tiny rain itself.

All kinds of positive vibes your way.


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## Refuse to be played

I having a hard time dealing with triggers. Some of them I can admit are stupid and hit me out of no where. I have stopped watching tv now after I triggered at a couple of baby commercials. Another time we were fixing lunch and were having a good time and then I read the back of a bag of chips. It was something on double dipping and how if nobody knows then it never happened. I just left the room and went upstairs, wouldn't talk to her until I calmed down some. Last night we went to a bar that had karaoke night and had a lot of fun for a while, we even sung together couple of times, but then a song triggered me and ruined the rest of the night. This constantly catches her off guard and causes her to walk on eggshells at times. I'm not verbally abusive or anything when I do, in fact I go out my way to avoid speaking to her when I get angry or depressed. I work out a lot now and try to keep busy and distracted. I begun converting half our basement into a gym/training area for myself. But even staying busy and active it still creeps up on me. 

I'm at the point now where I can finally say I want to be with her and R, but I don't know if I can if that makes sense? I don't know if I can get over at some point the fact that my wife had sex with some other guy repeatedly. Not only that she was impregnated by him, my wife was carrying another mans child. I was never fond of kids and was indifferent about having any, now I kind of don't want any. Plus the fact that baby/pregnancy stuff is a trigger for me. I know she'd make a great mom. I just don't have the desire to be a dad right now, and not just with her but with any woman. I don't know how supportive I can be during a pregnancy or how good a dad I could be to an infant anytime soon. I haven't told her I felt this way yet, I don't want to hurt her. I'm debating whether I should bring this up in MC or if this is a talk we need to have by ourselves one on one.


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## CEL

Brother first I am glad you posted because I am going through some shyte and reading your post helped me find out what I needed to do as well. So thanks 

Okay so I like you and I'm going to give it to you straight like a brother would. Stop trying to eat the whole damn elephant. You are not even at the legs you are still working the rump "LOL". We are not talking kids yet. We are not even talking this MONTH. You need only answer one question do you want to leave today? If the answer is no then you are just fine. Don't fight the battle yet to come fight the one you are IN.


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## Robsia

CEL said:


> You need only answer one question: do you want to leave today? If the answer is no then you are just fine. Don't fight the battle yet to come fight the one you are IN.


This is so true. At times it's so damned hard, but this is the big question.

NOTHING can undo what has been done. It's all about where - and HOW - we go on from here.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Mrs_Mathias said:


> So what? Does that mean it's not worth the effort? If 1 out of every 100 people can recover from a disease, is it not worth treating the disease because 99 people die?
> 
> If someone has the guts and the heart to attempt an honest reconciliation, I believe they will feel more satisfied at the end of their journey, even if the reconciliation is unsuccessful. They did what was in them to do. They worked to build a future that they wanted. No one can do that single-handedly. Not a WS or a BS. So, yes, reconciliations fail. But how do you know if you're the 1 or the 99 if you don't try?
> 
> P.S. Clearly I suck at staying away from here.



I couldn't agree more. This last few weeks I've nearly given up but I've hung on in there. Been thinking about the bigger picture, about my children, about what I really want, and I decided I'm here for the long haul. We are coming out the other side of a bad patch and have just had a great week together. I'm feeling very optimistic again, but still taking it slow and just enjoying the moment.

Ultimately, if our R fails, I'll have no regrets that we tried.


----------



## Refuse to be played

CEL said:


> Brother first I am glad you posted because I am going through some shyte and reading your post helped me find out what I needed to do as well. So thanks
> 
> Okay so I like you and I'm going to give it to you straight like a brother would. Stop trying to eat the whole damn elephant. You are not even at the legs you are still working the rump "LOL". We are not talking kids yet. We are not even talking this MONTH. You need only answer one question do you want to leave today? If the answer is no then you are just fine. Don't fight the battle yet to come fight the one you are IN.


No I don't want to leave today. I know its early, we just filed the lawsuit against her company last week. Its just that I can't help thinking long term. I don't want to go through with R and then in a few years D anyway. I don't want to go through that and I wouldn't want to put her through it either.

And I know she is trying her best right now. I can objectively say she has been awesome so far and has really began to do a lot of the heavy lifting since coming back from the cruise. She wants to talk about it more than I do. She is there when I need her but still having a bit of trouble backing off when I don't. She doesn't remember exactly what outfits and underwear she had for those trips so she threw out most of her work clothes and underwear, and she wants me to go with her to buy replacements. She hasn't found this site AFAIK but she has been lurking on SI a lot reading the WS and R boards. She is definitely trying with this R, more than me probably to be honest.


----------



## CEL

That's the way it should be. Man you could die tomorrow don't worry about years down the road.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Refuse - just take it day by day. Don't think about next month, next year. Take it slow and take each day as it comes. 
Hard I know, but it really helps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

I'm gonna try harder to just take it one day at a time. And I guess do a better job keeping busy. My muay thai training is going well and my W often comes to watch/ogle. We are also talking about building our own gym/training area in our basement. Setting that up will be something to keep me busy.


----------



## calvin

Me and CSS had a couple of rough days,some jerk sent her some PMs pretending to be her lover,
I dont know who it was but he needs to move out of mom and dads basement and get a life.
CSS had a strong EA,never went physical,the manchild wanted to push some buttons for some reason and he did.
Thank God the mods got on it right away,especially Amp.
It was stupid of me to let it get to me but I did,so we both suffered for a couple days.
I wont let it happen again.
CSS is true,has not lied to me and has been extremely honest.
Its incredible someone would get there rocks off by doing this.
Why hurt a couple who are trying to repair their life?
My guess is that his life must be pathetic.
I stand by my wife,I know I can.
Sometimes I stand in front of her,behind,to her side,above,under,left or right
Sometimes I stand on her,not for long...she complains.
Just checking in,hope you all are doing good.
Prayers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Nice to hear from you Calvin.
Off for a few days break today with hubby, kids, mam and dad. It's raining at the moment so hope it brightens up.
Cross fingers, things are going good at the moment.
Stating away from some of the TAM negativity and paranoia helps. 
Not you lot of course, but some of the other threads really don't help the R process.
A lot of haters out there at the moment.
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

calvin said:


> Me and CSS had a couple of rough days,some jerk sent her some PMs pretending to be her lover,
> I dont know who it was but he needs to move out of mom and dads basement and get a life.
> CSS had a strong EA,never went physical,the manchild wanted to push some buttons for some reason and he did.
> Thank God the mods got on it right away,especially Amp.
> It was stupid of me to let it get to me but I did,so we both suffered for a couple days.
> I wont let it happen again.
> CSS is true,has not lied to me and has been extremely honest.
> Its incredible someone would get there rocks off by doing this.
> *Why hurt a couple who are trying to repair their life?*
> _ My guess is that his life must be pathetic._
> I stand by my wife,I know I can.
> Sometimes I stand in front of her,behind,to her side,above,under,left or right
> Sometimes I stand on her,not for long...she complains.
> Just checking in,hope you all are doing good.
> Prayers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Misery loves company.. don't let them drag you down. Let them be miserable alone.


----------



## CantSitStill

Yeah I always wonder...how can people be so cruel just to be cruel? What do they get out of that? I don't understand
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> Yeah I always wonder...how can people be so cruel just to be cruel? What do they get out of that? *I don't understand*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I hope you never do. Its why you're a good person and they are....well.......:moon:


----------



## calvin

russell28 said:


> Misery loves company.. don't let them drag you down. Let them be miserable alone.


Nope,screw em.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> And I hope you never do. Its why you're a good person and they are....well.......:moon:


Yeah,just an idiot.
Must suck to be like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

CantSitStill said:


> Yeah I always wonder...how can people be so cruel just to be cruel? What do they get out of that? I don't understand
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They are mentally unbalanced. They think that posting lies and fabrications gives them some sort of power or control over the intended victims.

Sick.


----------



## CantSitStill

The things he said were ""you said I can talk to you here, I miss you and love doing it with you in public places". Also said things like "I know you told me to back off so your husband don't find out about us". It was so pathetic!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> The things he said were ""you said I can talk to you here, I miss you and love doing it with you in public places". Also said things like "I know you told me to back off so your husband don't find out about us". It was so pathetic!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sick indeed.
wont rattle my cage again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Happy Birthday to the R thread..a year old today...

Still doing great here and going strong... EI and I are happy and healthy and recovering very well. 

I am really working hard now on changing me for the better, primarily by reading some self help books and learning to take charge of my thoughts, set goals, and become more pro-active. This is also having a profound affect on my recovery. I was doing very well, now I am doing great. 

I lived life reacting pre-A, simply accepting life as it came, and I didn't care much about it either. I was obviously, to passive. I was just surviving and barely doing that. I am working on changing that, I am now driven and focused on bettering myself for me and my family. 

This is now gone past just recovering from the A, it's gone into recovering from a horrible marriage and sorry life pre-a. I wasn't living before all this, I was just breathing, EI now she tried to live, she tried to pull me on board but I wouldn't have it then. Among other things, She told me over and over that we needed to change, that she couldn't live like we were living any longer. I refused to listen to her pleas. 
Now I'm on board and taking the lead, I just hope and pray EI can learn to forgive herself and enjoy this ride with me. I love her so very much.
She deserves good things in life, we deserve good things in life.


In case anyone is interested:

The current book I am reading is: The 15 Invaluable Laws of Growth: Live Them and Reach Your Potential by John Maxwell.

also reading

Managing Thought: Think Differently. Think Powerfully. Achieve New Levels of Success 
by Mary J. Lore 

B1 out..
If you don't try to create the future you want then you must endure the future you get.


----------



## mintypeas

happy birthday to the thread!! and im so pleased that b1 and e1 are doing so well. well we have booked our renewal of our vows but i need help from you lovely people. im saying my own personal vows and i have no idea what to say so some ideas would be great so please get thinking people and help me with my vows xx


----------



## calvin

Glad to hear you and EI are still improving B1,good deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> Happy Birthday to the R thread..a year old today...
> 
> Still doing great here and going strong... EI and I are happy and healthy and recovering very well.
> 
> I am really working hard now on changing me for the better, primarily by reading some self help books and learning to take charge of my thoughts, set goals, and become more pro-active. This is also having a profound affect on my recovery. I was doing very well, now I am doing great.
> 
> I lived life reacting pre-A, simply accepting life as it came, and I didn't care much about it either. I was obviously, to passive. I was just surviving and barely doing that. I am working on changing that, I am now driven and focused on bettering myself for me and my family.
> 
> This is now gone past just recovering from the A, it's gone into recovering from a horrible marriage and sorry life pre-a. I wasn't living before all this, I was just breathing, EI now she tried to live, she tried to pull me on board but I wouldn't have it then. Among other things, She told me over and over that we needed to change, that she couldn't live like we were living any longer. I refused to listen to her pleas.
> Now I'm on board and taking the lead, I just hope and pray EI can learn to forgive herself and enjoy this ride with me. I love her so very much.
> She deserves good things in life, we deserve good things in life.
> 
> 
> In case anyone is interested:
> 
> The current book I am reading is: The 15 Invaluable Laws of Growth: Live Them and Reach Your Potential by John Maxwell.
> 
> also reading
> 
> Managing Thought: Think Differently. Think Powerfully. Achieve New Levels of Success
> by Mary J. Lore
> 
> B1 out..
> If you don't try to create the future you want then you must endure the future you get.




Wow, I wasn't expecting to see this post this morning! I'm amazed! For the past 30+ years of our relationship, I was the reluctant and disgruntled leader, motivator, decision maker, the buck stops here, (except, you earned "most" of those bucks ) head of our household. It wasn't because I wanted to be, but because it simply wasn't in your nature to step-up and assume that role. Earlier in our marriage, I did feel that it was 'you and me against the world'...... But, as our life became more challenging, and you became more and more withdrawn, first from the world, and later from me and our children, I began to feel that it was just 'me against the world.' I became very bitter and resentful towards you when I felt that I was fighting a battle that I could not win...... not by myself, anyway. So, I gave up and I surrendered my morals, my character, my integrity and my values..... everything that I felt had defined me as a person. The world can take away everything of external value. It can take our jobs, our home, our financial security, our health, our marriage, our loved ones..... all of it, everything. But, as long as we're breathing, the world cannot take away our morals, our character, our integrity and our values. Because that's who we are on the inside, despite our circumstances on the outside. If we give that away, we have no one to blame but ourselves. Our circumstances do not define us. It's how we choose to handle them. I know that no one else is to blame for my choices, good or bad, but myself. Now, that I truly understand that, it is incredibly liberating. I'm not a victim of my circumstances. I never was. I thought I was, but that was just a crutch. The power to change my life lies within me. Realizing that it took a long time (49 years) a lot of living, a lot of trial and error, a lot of choices; some good and some with devastating consequences, to understand all that psychobabble that I just typed, I pray that I will always remain compassionate towards those who may not be as far along in their journey of understanding themselves. 

In the last 14 months, you and I have unravelled our entire relationship going back all the way to 1981. We were both younger than our baby is now. The time, energy, blood, sweat and tears that we have both put into this reconciliation is truly immeasurable. 

B1, I cannot tell you how utterly blown away I am by the man I am blessed to be sharing my life with. And, I can never find the words to adequately tell you how sorry I am for betraying you, our children and myself. Because, there are none. There is no "just payment" for that level of betrayal. But, you have offered me forgiveness, grace, a bill of receipt that says "paid in full." Not because I have paid it in full, but because you know that I cannot. It is a beautiful gift. And, your gift has given me the will and the inspiration to find a way to forgive myself. I'm not quite there yet. But, I'm trying, because I want to be whole again; for you, for the kids and for me.

*I just hope that "this time time around" I can keep up with you.* You have truly reconciled......... not just our marriage (along with me,) you have reconciled the man within. Some days I feel like "the Beast has been unleashed, " and I wonder if I have the energy and drive to match your motivation. Less than 4 years ago you told me that you were 45 and ready to 'slow down.' I was crushed. I felt that I had been waiting our whole lives for you to "get started." What a difference a few years makes. You've gotten started! Let me put on my seatbelt. I'm coming with you. It's you and me against the world. Now, just make sure you keep all four wheels on the ground, out of people's front yards, and keep it under 100 mph. We're not teenagers, anymore!  I LOVE YOU!!! 

Chapter - Reconciliation (The End)
Chapter - The Rest of our Lives (A New Beginning)


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Reconciliation...*

These are simply amazing posts!
I really can't add anything besides "you both rock, and you earned it, I'm happy for you".


----------



## Acabado

It's really possible.
Man, wiping the tears here.
What a couple of rockstars!

Thanks, B1, EI.


----------



## CantSitStill

This is the best thread ever and I was one of the first to jump in here . So glad to have found both of you. You have helped me more than you'll ever realize.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Now let's all make plans to take a trip to EI and B1's house for a party!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Now let's all make plans to take a trip to EI and B1's house for a party!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm going to be down that way in late September.
Road trip by myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

B1 and EI. I'm speechless. And that is saying something in and of itself.

BTW, that's a great pic of you EI. Did B1 take that?


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> B1 and EI. I'm speechless. And that is saying something in and of itself.
> 
> BTW, that's a great pic of you EI. Did B1 take that?



Thank you, bfree, and all of you for your support and encouragement throughout our reconciliation journey. B1 and I have both said this before, but I know that we wouldn't be where we are, today, without all of you. I can never thank you guys enough for every prayer, good vibe, word of encouragement, word of wisdom, all of the practical advice, and perhaps, more importantly, for believing in me when I wasn't sure that I could believe in myself. But, most of all...... for carrying B1 through his darkest days, earlier on, when I couldn't. 

B1 and I know that "reconciliation" is a fluid process. It's not _a fait accompli, _ it's a never-ending journey. It's a choice to love one another, above all else, every single day.

Yes, B1 took that picture the weekend before last. We went to dinner at Joe's Crab Shack, (OMG) and then took a long romantic stroll on the waterfront. It was a cell phone pic. He didn't have his camera with him. (He wanted me to tell you that.... because if he had used his camera the lighting would have been better.) 

P.S. He is such a talented photographer..... among other things. In fact, he's multi-talented.


----------



## calvin

You both are an inspiration E1 and B1.
Shows that love really can overcome.
I still struggle a little here and there after 18 months but seeing success stories
Like yours and some others helps quite a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> Thank you, bfree, and all of you for your support and encouragement throughout our reconciliation journey. B1 and I have both said this before, but I know that we wouldn't be where we are, today, without all of you. I can never thank you guys enough for every prayer, good vibe, word of encouragement, word of wisdom, all of the practical advice, and perhaps, more importantly, for believing in me when I wasn't sure that I could believe in myself. But, most of all...... for carrying B1 through his darkest days, earlier on, when I couldn't.
> 
> B1 and I know that "reconciliation" is a fluid process. It's not _a fait accompli, _ it's a never-ending journey. It's a choice to love one another, above all else, every single day.
> 
> Yes, B1 took that picture the weekend before last. We went to dinner at Joe's Crab Shack, (OMG) and then took a long romantic stroll on the waterfront. It was a cell phone pic. He didn't have his camera with him. (He wanted me to tell you that.... because if he had used his camera the lighting would have been better.)
> 
> P.S. He is such a talented photographer..... among other things. In fact, he's multi-talented.


I've said it before. You two are the perfect example of how if you walk hand in hand along the path of love there is nothing that can't be accomplished. That was with a cell phone? See, talent shows through no matter what. :thumbup:


----------



## jim123

It takes a great man to admit his faults, fix his faults, forgive and then reach out and help someone who hurt him.

Wow, B1, wow.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> Wow, I wasn't expecting to see this post this morning! I'm amazed! For the past 30+ years of our relationship, I was the reluctant and disgruntled leader, motivator, decision maker, the buck stops here, (except, you earned "most" of those bucks ) head of our household. It wasn't because I wanted to be, but because it simply wasn't in your nature to step-up and assume that role. Earlier in our marriage, I did feel that it was 'you and me against the world'...... But, as our life became more challenging, and you became more and more withdrawn, first from the world, and later from me and our children, I began to feel that it was just 'me against the world.' I became very bitter and resentful towards you when I felt that I was fighting a battle that I could not win...... not by myself, anyway. So, I gave up and I surrendered my morals, my character, my integrity and my values..... everything that I felt had defined me as a person. The world can take away everything of external value. It can take our jobs, our home, our financial security, our health, our marriage, our loved ones..... all of it, everything. But, as long as we're breathing, the world cannot take away our morals, our character, our integrity and our values. Because that's who we are on the inside, despite our circumstances on the outside. If we give that away, we have no one to blame but ourselves. Our circumstances do not define us. It's how we choose to handle them. I know that no one else is to blame for my choices, good or bad, but myself. Now, that I truly understand that, it is incredibly liberating. I'm not a victim of my circumstances. I never was. I thought I was, but that was just a crutch. The power to change my life lies within me. Realizing that it took a long time (49 years) a lot of living, a lot of trial and error, a lot of choices; some good and some with devastating consequences, to understand all that psychobabble that I just typed, I pray that I will always remain compassionate towards those who may not be as far along in their journey of understanding themselves.
> 
> In the last 14 months, you and I have unravelled our entire relationship going back all the way to 1981. We were both younger than our baby is now. The time, energy, blood, sweat and tears that we have both put into this reconciliation is truly immeasurable.
> 
> B1, I cannot tell you how utterly blown away I am by the man I am blessed to be sharing my life with. And, I can never find the words to adequately tell you how sorry I am for betraying you, our children and myself. Because, there are none. There is no "just payment" for that level of betrayal. But, you have offered me forgiveness, grace, a bill of receipt that says "paid in full." Not because I have paid it in full, but because you know that I cannot. It is a beautiful gift. And, your gift has given me the will and the inspiration to find a way to forgive myself. I'm not quite there yet. But, I'm trying, because I want to be whole again; for you, for the kids and for me.
> 
> *I just hope that "this time time around" I can keep up with you.* You have truly reconciled......... not just our marriage (along with me,) you have reconciled the man within. Some days I feel like "the Beast has been unleashed, " and I wonder if I have the energy and drive to match your motivation. Less than 4 years ago you told me that you were 45 and ready to 'slow down.' I was crushed. I felt that I had been waiting our whole lives for you to "get started." What a difference a few years makes. You've gotten started! Let me put on my seatbelt. I'm coming with you. It's you and me against the world. Now, just make sure you keep all four wheels on the ground, out of people's front yards, and keep it under 100 mph. We're not teenagers, anymore!  I LOVE YOU!!!
> 
> Chapter - Reconciliation (The End)
> Chapter - The Rest of our Lives (A New Beginning)


Please look into a mirror and say, "I forgive give you."

You are where you deserve to be. B1 is a lucky man. You have reach so many people and have done so much.


----------



## Mr Blunt

*B1 posts on the first day (8-6-2012 ) of the thread RECONCILIATION*



> *Originally Posted by betrayed1*
> Reconciliation....
> 
> Some definitions:
> •	to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations between (two or more people)
> •	to settle (a quarrel or difference)
> •	to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other
> •	from Latin reconciliare to bring together again, from re- + conciliare to make friendly, conciliate ]
> 
> What does it mean to you?
> 
> 
> 
> It means I'll take another chance, I'll open my heart up all over again because I love her that much.
> It means I will meet you were you are in this mess and we will work together from there.
> It means I want to be friends again, not just lovers but best friends.
> It means I want to ultimately put the past behind us and move forward. Not forget the past, but learn from it and move ahead.
> It means I am willing to open myself up again to hurt but fully trusting I will never be hurt like this again.
> It means we build a new improved marriage.
> It means communicating like never before, so we always fully understand where we are in this marriage.
> It means doing away with anger, bitternes, resentment.
> It means making amends.
> It means forgiving.
> It means I am in love you.


How many people can be so articulate and have so many goals to meet then follow through meet them in one year? B1 and EI have kicked AZZ and accomplished them all!

B1 has not only encouraged all those that are beginning R but has encouraged me and I started my R 25 years ago! My R is successful and not only is our marriage still strong but in addition our children are as close to us as any parent would dream of.

B!, what you and EI have accomplished in one year is phenomenal! I am on my feet giving you both a standing ovation!


----------



## Mr Blunt

*B1 post exactly one year ago on 8-8-2012*



> Reconciliation...is talking about the gut wrenching things that hurts the BS the most. And the WS responding in a loving, caring manner and not in a defensive one, that's when you know you are on the road to R, Your not there yet, your just on the correct path




*B1 post one year LATER on 8-7-2013*


> I was doing very well, now I am doing great.
> I am now driven and focused on bettering myself for me and my family.


I hope that everyone sees the value in the words “…bettering myself for me and my family”

*If anyone is serious about R then I hope they will realize that getting to the point that you can focuses on getting better is absolutely essential and HUGE!*

B1 has a great partner to help him win. EI is the best female R partner that I have read on TAM (Rookie’s wife is great also but she does not post on TAM). 

This RECONCILIATION thread that was started by B1 has such great information on how to R that anyone that needs information on R has enough on this thread to give them direction that they need to get them to substantially improve. If you have read this whole thread and are not moving forward it is not because of the lack of information and advice.

*B1, EI, and many of you that have posted on this thread have provided a very valuable service to the BS and WS people that come here.* 

I know that all that try R are not going to make it but we all can get huge boost from winners like B1 and EI!


----------



## Cabsy

Congrats on the milestones and thanks for the thread.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> It takes a great man to admit his faults, fix his faults, forgive and then reach out and help someone who hurt him.
> 
> Wow, B1, wow.


Words to live by.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

A lot of good going on this thread right now. I'm glad I can keep it going with some good (mostly) of my own.

My wife's boss has officially been fired. And I deleted my old thread before I learned this, but he apparently had a girlfriend living with him. I don't know if they were together when he was with my W but it doesn't matter she left him anyway once this came to light. I got to see some of the emails he sent my wife that she was ignoring. He was trashing me in them. That had me pretty mad for a while but in the end I get paid, he loses his job and his GF so f### him, I WIN.

My wife will no longer be working there as well. But on like her POS boss she'll be walking away with a pretty big settlement when everything gets finished. She is looking for openings in her field but there aren't many that paid as well. I'm going to finish this fall semester and come December if she doesn't get any attractive local offers we might take up one from another city. She already has an offer from a pretty large company in Seattle.

Since we are unsure if we will be staying here long term, I have to put my in home gym project on hold indefinitely. I found a new way to keep myself busy though. I kinda abused BS privilege and impulse bought 2 Rottweiler puppies on Tuesday, named them Ares and Athena. They're about 6 1/2 weeks old, a little young but they're mom died 2 weeks ago. They are FEARLESS, they don't have any teeth really but were just barking and standing tall against my neighbor's dog.

We're getting along pretty well at the moment. She is still doing the heavylifting and I'm trying to work harder at our R. We got an invitation to go on a camping trip to the Wisconsin Dells from my MT instructor and his wife and a few other people from our gym. Never been there before and haven't been camping since I was 9 so it should be fun. So yeah mostly good. Staying busy, working it out with her and taking it one day at a time like yall said.


----------



## Rookie4

Think of all the people, WS and BS, who have come and gone from this thread in one year. I would like to think that at least some of them were helped.


----------



## Rookie4

Although, frankly , I think the thread would have been greatly improved if EI wasn't such a whiner.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, can anybody tell me what happened to Dig? Yet another drop of the ban-hammer?


----------



## Rookie4

PLus, Calvin never came and helped me fix my truck so I had to do it all myself.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> PLus, Calvin never came and helped me fix my truck so I had to do it all myself.


Sorry Rookie,I forgot all about it.
What kind of truck was it again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Good update RTBP.

Now keep in touch and update us on your progress.

No matter what happens stay positive.

HM


----------



## russell28

Rookie4 said:


> Although, frankly , I think the thread would have been greatly improved if EI wasn't such a whiner.


:lol: 



Rookie4 said:


> BTW, can anybody tell me what happened to Dig? Yet another drop of the ban-hammer?


Sounds like he got the perma ban, like a true alpha.. he does nothing half way..


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Although, frankly , I think the thread would have been greatly improved if EI wasn't such a whiner.


Ya know, Eddie Toles used to tease me that way in the 2nd grade.  I could spot a cheesy pick up line from the time I was 7!


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## Mr Blunt

> Think of all the people, WS and BS, who have come and gone from this thread in one year. I would like to think that at least some of them were helped


*If they were not helped it was because they choose not to be helped.* Some of the information you get here is better than the $150 per hr you get at some counselling!

Some people just like to whine and do nothing (EI did not whine she did a whole lot and it shows)


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## CantSitStill

Dig posted not long ago about how they moved and are doing well. Don't think he's banned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

Mr Blunt said:


> *If they were not helped it was because they choose not to be helped.* Some of the information you get here is better than the $150 per hr you get at some counselling!
> 
> Some people just like to whine and do nothing (EI did not whine she did a whole lot and it shows)


I've had more help from here than from my MC, and we have a great MC..


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## CantSitStill

Hello? We need updates on all of you please....calvin and I are good, we had a bit of a bad day yesterday but are fine now. How's everyone else doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Well I'm hard at work scraping, sanding, caulking and painting. House is starting to look better and Mrs bfree is keeping me well hydrated and flashes me on occasion to keep me motivated. Wow, never realized how easy I am to manipulate until I wrote that. Hmmm


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## CantSitStill

RefuseToBePlayed, gald you are doing all you can in your situation. It is so hard isn't it. I know it sucks to be a BS working on R. Dogs are good therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Lol Bfree, nothin wrong with that 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

HI everyone glad to see some are moving on and doing great. I am still hopeful my WS will "get it." It was remarkable to me this last week that a situation that has going on for months finally opened his eyes and he let me know he figured it out. Sometimes I guess I do have to believe he is that dense about human nature. As someone who is so very capable figuring out formulas and technical data when it comes to the soul he is clueless. Go figure. Anyhow I am struggling today with our 2 year D Day Aug. 31 and all the triggers this month, our Rosie (3 yr female dog) has gone missing. It is like just another loss in a long line of losses since D Day which has been one after another with no time in-between to stop grieving or the last loss, they just don't stop. I am trying to accept that I am having to rewrite all of our marriage even the man I fell in love with and wondering why I got married. I am struggling with the idea that there will never be someone in my life that I can completely trust, no one that will be watching my back, pick me up if I fall and I will never have the loving faithful husband of my dreams. The same old nagging question keeps coming up "why am I not good enough" to have even that small comfort. What have I done to deserve to never have the simple things that most take for granted? I should be grateful for having a roof over my head, food on the table and a fairly decent life what does it matter that nothing else seems worth it? I would rather live in a tent have no shoes and have the faithful loving husband I was promised. Now that all the things I have dreamed of are dead and buried I am not sure what I have to look forward too. Asked why I couldn't just get another dream? Well that's simple what do I dream for, what is there left that I could possibly want out of this life? I can't find but one thing I left that I want to do. All I want now is to get back on a Harley and ride but how far is that going to get me? And then what? I have no idea what comes next the only thing keeping me going is the day in and day out of chores and things that need to be done around the homestead. I am stuck and I still cry everyday whether it's for what was that will never be and all those I have lost between then and now. Life goes on but not with the excitement and magic it once held and I look forward with no joy or gladness. Sorry after rereading I sound depressed still. The new diagnosis of PTSD hasn't helped wither.


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## calvin

Hang in there Jupiter,you're not weird,you're acting like anyone would when
Something like this happens.
A real remorseful spouse and time are the best medicine you can get.
It will get better.
I know so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

CantSitStill said:


> RefuseToBePlayed, gald you are doing all you can in your situation. It is so hard isn't it. I know it sucks to be a BS working on R. Dogs are good therapy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey thanks CSS. Yeah it sucks big time being the BS. I occasionally wonder WTF am I doing and why am I still here and is it worth it? Some days I don't have an answer for that others I do. But like I said earlier I'm taking it day by day, hoping at some point I'll just feel right again. I'm sick of this roller coaster. And the pups are a great distraction from this. Having a lot of fun with them, even though one of them pissed on me today.


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> Hey thanks CSS. Yeah it sucks big time being the BS. I occasionally wonder WTF am I doing and why am I still here and is it worth it? Some days I don't have an answer for that others I do. But like I said earlier I'm taking it day by day, hoping at some point I'll just feel right again. I'm sick of this roller coaster. And the pups are a great distraction from this. Having a lot of fun with them, *even though one of them pissed on me today*.


Isn't that considered to be a good omen in some cultures? :scratchhead:


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## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> Isn't that considered to be a good omen in some cultures? :scratchhead:


Not in mine...in Brooklyn getting pissed on by a dog is just getting pissed on by a dog.


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## CantSitStill

RefuseToBePlayed...all of your feelings are the same as calvin. He asks himself those questions all the time...he has an answer tho...it's because he loves me enough to give me this one last chance...it affects him mentally and physically. Yes he has gotten very sick at work to the point of throwing up. It's horrible, I mean seriously this is the worst thing to go through...sounds weird coming from a WS but I see everyday how my EA has affected him..EA or PA both hurt like hell. I want to take all of his pain away. I want a do over....everyday he asks why. Uggg I also ask myself why because I regret it so much. I should have worked harder on our marriage. A lot of wishing I had handled things differently. It is too late because there is no time machine but it is never too late to change and everyday I am so very thankful for calvin . The thought that I almost lost him makes me very very I'll. I'll be praying for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> RefuseToBePlayed...all of your feelings are the same as calvin. He asks himself those questions all the time...he has an answer tho...it's because he loves me enough to give me this one last chance...it affects him mentally and physically. Yes he has gotten very sick at work to the point of throwing up. It's horrible, I mean seriously this is the worst thing to go through...sounds weird coming from a WS but I see everyday how my EA has affected him..EA or PA both hurt like hell. I want to take all of his pain away. I want a do over....everyday he asks why. Uggg I also ask myself why because I regret it so much. I should have worked harder on our marriage. A lot of wishing I had handled things differently. It is too late because there is no time machine but it is never too late to change and everyday I am so very thankful for calvin . The thought that I almost lost him makes me very very I'll. I'll be praying for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love you honey,things are better and they will continue to get better.
Bed now,I have not felt good all day...its weird for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

CantSitStill said:


> RefuseToBePlayed...all of your feelings are the same as calvin. He asks himself those questions all the time...he has an answer tho...it's because he loves me enough to give me this one last chance...it affects him mentally and physically. Yes he has gotten very sick at work to the point of throwing up. It's horrible, I mean seriously this is the worst thing to go through...sounds weird coming from a WS but I see everyday how my EA has affected him..EA or PA both hurt like hell. I want to take all of his pain away. I want a do over....everyday he asks why. Uggg I also ask myself why because I regret it so much. I should have worked harder on our marriage. A lot of wishing I had handled things differently. It is too late because there is no time machine but it is never too late to change and everyday I am so very thankful for calvin . The thought that I almost lost him makes me very very I'll. I'll be praying for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you again for the prayers CCS, my thoughts go to you and calvin as well. I love my W as well, despite what she done. That and she has been extremely remorseful are the reasons why I stay and push forward. I'm very much aware of the effects on the body, I just got my regular appetite back like 2 weeks ago. I can't sleep throughout the night without chugging zzzquil and its constantly on my mind unless I'm doing something to distract myself. I think my W feels the same way as you, she is constantly beating herself up over what she done. I keep telling myself she is trying and that I love her, it helps some.


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## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Thank you again for the prayers CCS, my thoughts go to you and calvin as well. I love my W as well, despite what she done. That and she has been extremely remorseful are the reasons why I stay and push forward. I'm very much aware of the effects on the body, I just got my regular appetite back like 2 weeks ago. I can't sleep throughout the night without chugging zzzquil and its constantly on my mind unless I'm doing something to distract myself. I think my W feels the same way as you, she is constantly beating herself up over what she done. I keep telling myself she is trying and that I love her, it helps some.


Refuse,
Hang in there it gets better but it takes awhile.
Having a truely remorseful spouse is the key as well are you being willing to forgive.
You wont forget it but after awhile it wont be on your mind everyday.
Have you thought about your wife coming here to post?
Some prefer not bringing their spouses on here and I understand that,
It can be a safe place for the BS to come and put their thoughts out there
and get advice.
Keep up with the updates and take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Refuse,
> Hang in there it gets better but it takes awhile.
> Having a truely remorseful spouse is the key as well are you being willing to forgive.
> You wont forget it but after awhile it wont be on your mind everyday.
> Have you thought about your wife coming here to post?
> Some prefer not bringing their spouses on here and I understand that,
> It can be a safe place for the BS to come and put their thoughts out there
> and get advice.
> Keep up with the updates and take care.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Trying to forgive but its hard, plus all the what ifs I for some reason can't stop torturing myself with. I was think of telling her about TAM for awhile. Maybe I'll let her know I post here, let her read a few threads and my posts and let her decide I guess. She'd probably do it.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Trying to forgive but its hard, plus all the what ifs I for some reason can't stop torturing myself with. I was think of telling her about TAM for awhile. Maybe I'll let her know I post here, let her read a few threads and my posts and let her decide I guess. She'd probably do it.


The what ifs scare the hell out of me.
The ex-con would have hurt CSS bad.
The what ifs almost came true,hard not to think about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

The thing that gets me the most is that this POS impregnated her. She was carrying his child, my wife was carrying another man's child. We don't have any children and while I was never excited about having them I absolutely HATE that he did something with her that I never did. I hate that he stole that from me and a part of me hates her for letting him. It makes me physically sick thinking about it. Not a good day.


----------



## jupiter13

Thanks for the encouraging words calvin. It's from reading all the posts here that has kept me going, hanging in there and trying patiently for the the next stage. My Rosie has been missing a week now and that seems so much more important than anything he has done or will do. Sounds hard but I value that dog more than I do anything else in my life. She has been my support through out all this. WH is obsessing about finding her says he can't get closure without finding her one way or another. I think that is what all of us want closure of what happened, the how, why and whens. This is a good example to show him what this feels like and why moving on moving forward is not possible. Funny how life sort of puts things in your path as teaching tools. However this is still something I could have lived without and will forever be changed by.


----------



## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> Thanks for the encouraging words calvin. It's from reading all the posts here that has kept me going, hanging in there and trying patiently for the the next stage. My Rosie has been missing a week now and that seems so much more important than anything he has done or will do. Sounds hard but I value that dog more than I do anything else in my life. She has been my support through out all this. WH is obsessing about finding her says he can't get closure without finding her one way or another. I think that is what all of us want closure of what happened, the how, why and whens. This is a good example to show him what this feels like and why moving on moving forward is not possible. Funny how life sort of puts things in your path as teaching tools. However this is still something I could have lived without and will forever be changed by.


Yes Jupiter you will be forever changed by this.
The change you go through can be pretty painful but n a way its not a bad thing for ou as a person.
I know that sounds weird but you will come out stronger once the dust settles some.
Hopefully a stonger,better and new marriage,it does happen.
Sorry about your dog,my fat Beagle Queenie was a big comfort to me,she still is.
She's a big fat baby.
We all love her and she has no conditions about loving us back.
Well besides belly rubs and food.
Give every thing some time,I swear it gets better.
Hope Rosie comes back real soon,I have a feeling she will.
Hang tight Jup,it will work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

The worst is knowing I will never have the marriage I wanted and dreamed about. I don't want this new marriage cause I will never fully trust him again. I won't be able to completely be myself with him ever again either. I don't think that is a good thing. The most to hope for will be a more working relationship but we had that already as we work very well together when it comes to running the business or home life. Meeting his needs was always easy feeling loved was great, the problem was getting sick. You know the in sickness and in health part well that was the part that did us in, he couldn't hang. Funny part was he only had to hang in there a couple more months before I was back on my feet and back to my old self well the old self that could walk and talk. What a waste...


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## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> The worst is knowing I will never have the marriage I wanted and dreamed about. I don't want this new marriage cause I will never fully trust him again. I won't be able to completely be myself with him ever again either. I don't think that is a good thing. The most to hope for will be a more working relationship but we had that already as we work very well together when it comes to running the business or home life. Meeting his needs was always easy feeling loved was great, the problem was getting sick. You know the in sickness and in health part well that was the part that did us in, he couldn't hang. Funny part was he only had to hang in there a couple more months before I was back on my feet and back to my old self well the old self that could walk and talk. What a waste...


If he is willing to give it his all and do his best to make up for the betrayal and work
at it for a looonngg time,it wont be a waste but he should be bending over backwards
to earn your trust again.
Me and CSS are doing pretty decent but she will never get the 100% trust again.
I'm at around 90%,still room for a little more.
Bfree said no one can trust anyone completely,I think he said 98% is the best
That can come from something like this.
Sorry but your guard will always be up,not all the time but you will pay a little more attention
to signs you did'nt pick up on before.
Watch out for the false positives,once you have been betrayed your mind can play tricks on you
when your spouse is not doing anything wrong.
Its hard,its a test no one wants to take.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

jupiter13 said:


> The worst is knowing I will never have the marriage I wanted and dreamed about. I don't want this new marriage cause I will never fully trust him again. I won't be able to completely be myself with him ever again either. I don't think that is a good thing. The most to hope for will be a more working relationship but we had that already as we work very well together when it comes to running the business or home life. Meeting his needs was always easy feeling loved was great, the problem was getting sick. You know the in sickness and in health part well that was the part that did us in, he couldn't hang. Funny part was he only had to hang in there a couple more months before I was back on my feet and back to my old self well the old self that could walk and talk. What a waste...


You are correct. You won't have the marriage that you dreamed about because they don't exist. Its a fairy tale and a fantasy, just like an affair. Marriages are relationships between two people. They're very deep relationships but just relationships nonetheless. And people have faults, hang-ups, make mistakes and make terrible decisions on occasion. We're just people and we aren't perfect. So those issues will seep into relationships. Its inevitable. But having a marriage based on truth and reality is just as rewarding, maybe even more rewarding. And when a weakness is revealed or some other negative trait comes out, its an opportunity for the person to grow as an individual and the couple as a unit. And both benefit from that growth.

When you say that you will never trust him again that is an incorrect statement. Will you trust him 100%. No, but you shouldn't have in the first place knowing he was just a human being. But you may eventually get to the point where you trust who he really is given his faults and limitations. And when you don't burden him with blind trust you may be surprised at how often he will surpass your expectations. Remember, there is no such thing as unconditional love. That fairy tale belongs in the realm of the Easter bunny and the Great Pumpkin. What you should believe in is mature fulfilling love that flows back and forth between the both of you not only meeting each of your needs but not burdening each other with unrealistic expectations. You will get to a point where you will open up and be yourself again. And he will too. But the rose colored glasses are now gone and you can see each other in the light of reality with no makeup. That's a beauty that lasts.


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## cpacan

A very good post bfree - this is IT in a nutshell.

It's just hard to let go of the dreams as well as the life you thought you had for so many years - the fantacy. It felt real, it was my perceived reality (and Jupiters).

Maybe it's time to watch The Truman Show or The Matrix again.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> A very good post bfree - this is IT in a nutshell.
> 
> It's just hard to let go of the dreams as well as the life you thought you had for so many years - the fantacy. It felt real, it was my perceived reality (and Jupiters).
> 
> Maybe it's time to watch The Truman Show or The Matrix again.


I love the movie The Matrix and specifically I love the character Cipher. He knows the Matrix isn't real, he knows it's a false construct and yet he still desires it over the real world. Too many people would rather play the ostrich and avoid the realities of life. But if they just stop for a minute and really take a look around they would see the true beauty that this world has to offer. Bears are beautiful fascinating creatures but if you think of Yogi when you see a bear you will be sorry. Yet the fact that bears are dangerous predators doesn't take away from their beauty does it?


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

bfree said:


> I love the movie The Matrix and specifically I love the character Cipher. He knows the Matrix isn't real, he knows it's a false construct and yet he still desires it over the real world. Too many people would rather play the ostrich and avoid the realities of life. But if they just stop for a minute and really take a look around they would see the true beauty that this world has to offer. Bears are beautiful fascinating creatures but if you think of Yogi when you see a bear you will be sorry. Yet the fact that bears are dangerous predators doesn't take away from their beauty does it?


I was always more of a Boo Boo man myself. 

Great posts Bfree, you're on fire this morning!


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## ScubaSteve61

Refuse to be played said:


> The thing that gets me the most is that this POS impregnated her. She was carrying his child, my wife was carrying another man's child. We don't have any children and while I was never excited about having them I absolutely HATE that he did something with her that I never did. I hate that he stole that from me and a part of me hates her for letting him. It makes me physically sick thinking about it. Not a good day.


Yeah, that's rough, man. A tough thing to get past. All I can say is I'm sorry, and you got TAM to talk to when you feel like this.


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## russell28

bfree said:


> I love the movie The Matrix and specifically I love the character Cipher. He knows the Matrix isn't real, he knows it's a false construct and yet he still desires it over the real world. Too many people would rather play the ostrich and avoid the realities of life. But if they just stop for a minute and really take a look around they would see the true beauty that this world has to offer. Bears are beautiful fascinating creatures but if you think of Yogi when you see a bear you will be sorry. Yet the fact that bears are dangerous predators doesn't take away from their beauty does it?


Yogi had beauty, he was smarter than your average bear.. he wasn't as dangerous because he only wanted your picinick basket. 

Agree about the small things in life.. as an artist I learned from a young age how wonderful a tree can be. Every day is a blessing just to be alive and experience this wonderful planet and all it's creatures, landscapes, seascapes and skyscapes... 

Great posts bfree..


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## Refuse to be played

ScubaSteve61 said:


> Yeah, that's rough, man. A tough thing to get past. All I can say is I'm sorry, and you got TAM to talk to when you feel like this.


Thanks man. I'm glad I found TAM, I don't have many people outside of IC to talk to about this. Wife was the person I use to go to talk about whats bothering me. Its weird when the one you lean on the most for emotional support is the source of your pain.


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## Refuse to be played

I don't know what yesterday was about. It was just a down day and I couldn't get the negative thoughts to go away. I've been actively avoiding things that could potentially trigger me but I still went off yesterday. I'm sick of feeling like this.

Oh and I told my wife about TAM told her she can do what she wants, I don't really care at the moment.


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## jupiter13

bfree your words I know are true but they are still hard to take since the fairy tail is no longer then there is no magic in love. Without the magic we are left with nothing but cold hard facts. If the cold hard facts is all we have left then there is no room for faith. 

As in business I signed a contact with my partner. If that person breaks the contact it becomes null and void, therefore consequences. That does not mean we pick-up and move forward as if it is still valid. That contact and anything pertaining to that contact is no longer enforceable. Now to continue to expect your partner to honor the guidelines of the previous contact while you break it is ridiculous. I have no intention of honoring that contact while he seems to think he can step back into it as if nothing ever happened. As far as I am concerned at this point I have a piece of paper that was issued by the sate of ** and with it it gives me certain legal rights. I enjoy the fact that I can stripe him of everything he has built and he knows it. So I am so distrustful that I question his sincerity about everything. I have to rewrite our whole marriage and there are warning signs I choose to ignore taking him at face value. I truly believed in him and that his words were true. Now I see that not one word was true and he is false maybe not even capable of knowing what love is. He has told the MC that he has learned love through being with me BUT I still doubt he gets it. I'm too old for this and the games. I never wanted a relationship that I had to play games in it lessens the respect I would have for my partner which in turns lessens the value I would place in the relationship. It would be doomed. I think it is time to post our story and I bet you would agree nither one of us should have gotten married.


----------



## bfree

jupiter13 said:


> bfree your words I know are true but they are still hard to take since the fairy tail is no longer then there is no magic in love. Without the magic we are left with nothing but cold hard facts. If the cold hard facts is all we have left then there is no room for faith.
> 
> As in business I signed a contact with my partner. If that person breaks the contact it becomes null and void, therefore consequences. That does not mean we pick-up and move forward as if it is still valid. That contact and anything pertaining to that contact is no longer enforceable. Now to continue to expect your partner to honor the guidelines of the previous contact while you break it is ridiculous. I have no intention of honoring that contact while he seems to think he can step back into it as if nothing ever happened. As far as I am concerned at this point I have a piece of paper that was issued by the sate of ** and with it it gives me certain legal rights. I enjoy the fact that I can stripe him of everything he has built and he knows it. So I am so distrustful that I question his sincerity about everything. I have to rewrite our whole marriage and there are warning signs I choose to ignore taking him at face value. I truly believed in him and that his words were true. Now I see that not one word was true and he is false maybe not even capable of knowing what love is. He has told the MC that he has learned love through being with me BUT I still doubt he gets it. I'm too old for this and the games. I never wanted a relationship that I had to play games in it lessens the respect I would have for my partner which in turns lessens the value I would place in the relationship. It would be doomed. I think it is time to post our story and I bet you would agree nither one of us should have gotten married.


Jupiter,

I understand what you're saying about the contract being broken. And you're correct. But just because this contract is broken doesn't mean you stop doing business right? This particular incarnation of your marriage is over and done. If you and your husband desire to stay together then now you both need to build a new marriage together. And the best thing about that is if you both work hard at it you can build an even stronger long lasting marriage than you had before. You can work to reinforce the foundation, you can use stronger materials, you can make this new marriage anything you want. Right now you're saying but we have so much baggage to overcome. And you do. But that just means you both have an opportunity to learn and grow together. Now you can both really look at each other with realistic eyes and see each other for who you really are. When you first got together most likely you were both infatuated with each other. Neither of you could do any wrong in the eyes of the other. But now you know that was just a false shadow. Now you can see the true beauty of each other, faults included. You have opportunities to learn what makes each other really happy and fulfilled and you can work to fulfill each other on a daily basis. Now you both know how fragile relationships can be and will work hard to make sure you don't cause damage again. That's the true magic of marriage. Both spouses working hard each and every day to fulfill themselves and each other. Fairy tale magic is trite and worthless. We don't value what is given, only what is earned. You and your husband can now MAKE the magic in your marriage. You can each pick up the wands and create whatever you wish. And its all in your control. Now isn't that better than some arbitrary chaotic directionless fairy tale magic?


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## Refuse to be played

MC was a big help the other day. Been negative for a couple of days now but now feel a bit better, hopefully the anti-depressants I got last week kick in soon. We spoke about how I was feeling the other day. It was hard for her to hear but it was how I was genuinely feeling at the time. I like MC because it allows me to express my negative feelings towards her in a way that isn't abusive. She is doing what she can, being supportive and all that. She wants to go out tonight and get a drink and have some fun.

I also mentioned earlier I went an told her about me being here at TAM. She just today worked up the courage to create her profile but *she is still too chicken to post*.


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## bfree

Mrs rtbp,

Please post in this thread. I promise you will be treated with respect and honesty. We all learn so much from each other. This thread proves conclusively that the sum is definitely more than the parts. We are all waiting to help you to have the best life and marriage possible. But as always it it's your choice.


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## soulpotato

GF is supposed to break it to her family any day now that we're getting back together. I think she's going to really struggle with this. I'll be going to therapy alone for a bit to get back to working on me.

Things are still improving with us, but it still doesn't quite feel like we're back together despite the declaration of intention (or whatever you'd like to call it). GF seems like she's slowly warming up and being more demonstrative with her caring, however. She's still uncertain about any idea of living together for at least another 6-8 months. She fears we'll mess it up if we try before then. I think she's just afraid of making commitments to me...justifiably so based on my past behavior. Not that it isn't maddening.


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> MC was a big help the other day. Been negative for a couple of days now but now feel a bit better, hopefully the anti-depressants I got last week kick in soon. We spoke about how I was feeling the other day. It was hard for her to hear but it was how I was genuinely feeling at the time. I like MC because it allows me to express my negative feelings towards her in a way that isn't abusive. She is doing what she can, being supportive and all that. She wants to go out tonight and get a drink and have some fun.
> 
> I also mentioned earlier I went an told her about me being here at TAM. She just today worked up the courage to create her profile but *she is still too chicken to post*.


Lol you suck babe. Hi everyone I'm RTBP's wife. I'm glad he told me he post here. I knew he was talking to someone I assumed it was one of his friends. I know he doesn't like to talk to people that we know about this and he is just recently opening up in marriage counseling and he isn't very close to his side of the family so it's good to have someone other than me. I know I'm not his favorite person right now. So thank you all for that!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

Hi Forever Grateful

What are you grateful for?

What can you do to help yourself and your husband?

If you have read this thread what do you think of the posts so far?

You probably will get blasted some but if you really are trying to make the best of it you will get some good advice and support here. Do you care to tell us about yourself?

How can we help?


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## jupiter13

the marriage I dreamed about does exist I have multiple friends that have strong marriages, some married 35 plus years and still going strong. Yes there is unconditional love as I love my kids that way. Are there condition? Not really there are called “rules.” If they break the rules do I stop loving them? No. I have loved my WH just as I loved the kids unconditional. (He has broken so many rules and we have gotten through them but this time he hurt me.) Without magic there can be no romantic love that which I hear every relationship needs. And no we will not have a great relationship ever. It will be good but never great. He lied from day one presented himself to have values, convictions, morals and be made of something other than liquid Sh~t. “I hold marriage as Sacred” (his words) Yeah right! He is still side stepping my questions and he has left me out here unable to move forward till I get those answers for almost two years. That is a lot of anger, bitterness and self doubt to carry I think it has become part of the new me. There’s his consequences.


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## cpacan

jupiter13 said:


> the marriage I dreamed about does exist I have multiple friends that have strong marriages, some married 35 plus years and still going strong. Yes there is unconditional love as I love my kids that way. Are there condition? Not really there are called “rules.” If they break the rules do I stop loving them? No. I have loved my WH just as I loved the kids unconditional. (He has broken so many rules and we have gotten through them but this time he hurt me.) Without magic there can be no romantic love that which I hear every relationship needs. And no we will not have a great relationship ever. It will be good but never great. He lied from day one presented himself to have values, convictions, morals and be made of something other than liquid Sh~t. “I hold marriage as Sacred” (his words) Yeah right! He is still side stepping my questions and he has left me out here unable to move forward till I get those answers for almost two years. That is a lot of anger, bitterness and self doubt to carry I think it has become part of the new me. *There’s his consequences.*


I feel with you Jupiter, and I know exactly how it feels to have lived the lie/fairy tale for almost 30 years - give 'em back to me.

You're mistaken on one thing though - the bolded is not HIS consequences, they are YOUR consequences, which is why you'll benefit from shifting your mindset as much as you can towards "It is what it is, and that's going to be OK". Maybe not great to begin with, but OK. Gradually I believe, one can reach a point of greatness, at least that's what I hope for

Remember it's YOUR life, and you always have the choice to walk and find happyness elsewhere.


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## ScubaSteve61

Forever Grateful said:


> Lol you suck babe. Hi everyone I'm RTBP's wife. I'm glad he told me he post here. I knew he was talking to someone I assumed it was one of his friends. I know he doesn't like to talk to people that we know about this and he is just recently opening up in marriage counseling and he isn't very close to his side of the family so it's good to have someone other than me. I know I'm not his favorite person right now. So thank you all for that!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Welcome, Grateful. Two quick bits of advice:

1. Don't sweat the triggers. They will come. Give him what he wants. He wants space? Leave the room. He wants close? Grab on and don't let go.

2. Make sure you let him know you love him. Don't just say it, show it. Old saying, but actions do indeed speak louder than words.

Anyway, welcome to TAM! Treat our man RTBP right!


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## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> Lol you suck babe. Hi everyone I'm RTBP's wife. I'm glad he told me he post here. I knew he was talking to someone I assumed it was one of his friends. I know he doesn't like to talk to people that we know about this and he is just recently opening up in marriage counseling and he isn't very close to his side of the family so it's good to have someone other than me. I know I'm not his favorite person right now. So thank you all for that!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Grateful,

Welcome to the reconciliation thread. You will be treated with respect here and you will receive great advice from both fWS and BS alike.

The first suggestion I'd like to give you is to look up the stages of grief. I mention this because when a marriage goes through infidelity it is very much like the death of the old marriage and the stages of grief do occur. It will help you to prepare for the emotional rollercoaster that Refuse will be going through. Next I think you should be starting to read several books if you already haven't. You should read Surviving An Affair, His Needs Her Needs and Not Just Friends. These books are great to help you put things in perspective and give you loads of ideas as to how to insulate yourself from further issues and how to move forward. But those aren't the only books out there. Its just a start. I'm going to stress this heavily. You cannot reseach this enough. Whether its asking for advice on here and/or reading books its very important for you to start learning how these things happen and what the true ramifications are, although I'm sure you've already seen some first hand. The last thing I'd like to mention (so I don't overload you on the first day you posted) is to say "I love you" to Refuse as much as you can even when he shouts back that you can't possibly love him if you cheated on him. I won't call what happened a mistake but what I will say is that there isn't one perfect person in this world. We're all human and we all screw up. And yes we all hurt people we love sometimes. Its not the act of hurting that matters as much as the acts of atonement that truly define who we are as people.

Don't hesitate to post asking questions or just posting an update. It really helps to be able to talk to someone, have someone out there who really cares. None of us get paid for what we do. We're all here because we care and want to help. Use us as much as you need to. Again, welcome and I wish you all the success and happiness life has to offer.


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## bfree

jupiter13 said:


> the marriage I dreamed about does exist I have multiple friends that have strong marriages, some married 35 plus years and still going strong. Yes there is unconditional love as I love my kids that way. Are there condition? Not really there are called “rules.” If they break the rules do I stop loving them? No. I have loved my WH just as I loved the kids unconditional. (He has broken so many rules and we have gotten through them but this time he hurt me.) Without magic there can be no romantic love that which I hear every relationship needs. And no we will not have a great relationship ever. It will be good but never great. He lied from day one presented himself to have values, convictions, morals and be made of something other than liquid Sh~t. “I hold marriage as Sacred” (his words) Yeah right! He is still side stepping my questions and he has left me out here unable to move forward till I get those answers for almost two years. That is a lot of anger, bitterness and self doubt to carry I think it has become part of the new me. There’s his consequences.


The only unconditional love that exists is between a parent and a child. That is true. A parent/child bond is a biological tie. There is no breaking that regardless of how much each one may hurt the other. A marriage is a choice just like the love in a relationship is a choice. Setting aside the parental bond, love is a choice to sacrifice day after day, week after week, month after month. And because it is a choice there must be conditions on whether to continue to make this sacrifice. Part of the problem you are having is that you admittedly loved your husband unconditionally. That type of love is reserved for your children and cannot exist with anyone else. Now armed with this knowledge you need to approach your marriage in this way. Is your husband fulfilling the requirements necessary for you to continue to make that choice, that sacrifice? Are you communicating to him that if he doesn't step up to the plate and start sacrificing FOR YOU that your love for him is going to end, that you will no longer choose to love him? What you need to do is to eliminate all thoughts of "soulmates" or "meant to be." The only thing that is meant to be is what you decide is meant to be. Maybe that is what some of your friends have already figured out in their marriages. Although I warn you to not compare what you have with what they have. You don't really know what has transpired in their marriages. People don't air out their dirty laundry, even to their closest friends and relatives. For a great example of that look at the thread here that was started by hibiscus. Her husband had a ONS and she just found out that her friend with the "perfect marriage" had a ONS a year ago and is still hiding this from her husband. And the marriage you dreamt about might indeed exist. But its not going to magically appear out of thin air. It has to be built brick by brick with blood, sweat and yes sometimes tears. But if both you and your husband work at it you can have that marriage. It just won't be a fantasy marriage. It will be a marriage of substance.


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## margrace

bfree said:


> ...You won't have the marriage that you dreamed about because they don't exist. Its a fairy tale and a fantasy, just like an affair. Marriages are relationships between two people. They're very deep relationships but just relationships nonetheless. And people have faults, hang-ups, make mistakes and make terrible decisions on occasion. We're just people and we aren't perfect. So those issues will seep into relationships. Its inevitable. But having a marriage based on truth and reality is just as rewarding, maybe even more rewarding. And when a weakness is revealed or some other negative trait comes out, its an opportunity for the person to grow as an individual and the couple as a unit. And both benefit from that growth.
> 
> When you say that you will never trust him again that is an incorrect statement. Will you trust him 100%. No, but you shouldn't have in the first place knowing he was just a human being. But you may eventually get to the point where you trust who he really is given his faults and limitations. And when you don't burden him with blind trust you may be surprised at how often he will surpass your expectations. Remember, there is no such thing as unconditional love. That fairy tale belongs in the realm of the Easter bunny and the Great Pumpkin. What you should believe in is mature fulfilling love that flows back and forth between the both of you not only meeting each of your needs but not burdening each other with unrealistic expectations. You will get to a point where you will open up and be yourself again. And he will too. But the rose colored glasses are now gone and you can see each other in the light of reality with no makeup. That's a beauty that lasts.


being away from TAM for a while can be a nice break since, as we know, there are so many triggering posts ... but it also means missing out on the great helpful posts from all of you.

during the time away, fWH and i had some vacation time together -- and it was really really wonderful. hawaii is magical all by itself, and being far away from the A reminders was so healing and relaxing. it was a time of feeling connected at every level... actually, yes, more connected than ever before in our marriage 

it was also an important replacement of a terrible A memory with a great R experience. last year, i left a couple of days early for our trip. _that_ vacation was an occasion for fWH to lie reassuringly to my face as he planned to betray me while i was away (and did so). that has been one of the worst memories of all for me, and i'm so glad to be a year past it and in such a good place.

there _was_ a little transition period to this year's wonderfulness. at first, it seemed like being together with just us (no real-life busy-ness) opened up my mind to its usual annoying tendency to remember, worry, etc. 

now that i'm back, i've had some moments of that as well. what a waste of time and energy. i have mentioned this before -- fWH is doing everything, everything, possible in terms of the heavy lifting. and i believe in him when i am being rational! unfortunately i can still tumble into remembering  i don't stay there for long these days but it can hurt a lot until i get out. 

THIS PART IS SOMETHING THAT *I* HAVE TO KEEP WORKING ON. i know that. stop falling into that hole! at a certain point, there's no one but me TO work on it. fWH can only keep doing _his_ part -- he can't really do _this_ part for me without a magic wand.

maybe there is something in moving past the fairy tale version of things that i am resisting? it does somehow feel dangerous on the other side (although i agree with every word of bfree's post). the posts from B1 and EI were amazing, too. i hope to keep growing and improving myself in all the ways that B1 described -- so inspiring! -- and a line from EI's post has haunted me (in a good way): 



> (Y)ou have offered me forgiveness, grace, a bill of receipt that says "paid in full." Not because I have paid it in full, but because you know that I cannot. It is a beautiful gift.


 we _all _need that in life, right?


----------



## Forever Grateful

Mr Blunt said:


> Hi Forever Grateful
> 
> What are you grateful for?
> 
> What can you do to help yourself and your husband?
> 
> If you have read this thread what do you think of the posts so far?
> 
> You probably will get blasted some but if you really are trying to make the best of it you will get some good advice and support here. Do you care to tell us about yourself?
> 
> How can we help?


I'm grateful for the second chance I don't deserve and that despite his pain he is trying.

Helping him is priority. I'm listening to him and what he wants and needs. I'm willing to take any advice on how to help us recover from this. I'm working hard in counseling both marriage and my own to fix our relationship and to fix myself as a person. Like I said I'm open to suggestions. 

I've read a few of the post here, they make me hopeful. I'm going to have RTBP point out some threads that might help me gain some more perspective when he gets up.

RTBP has already warned me about it being harsh here for cheating wives. That's fine, I honestly doubt anyone here can say anything I haven't said myself over the past eight months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> GF is supposed to break it to her family any day now that we're getting back together. I think she's going to really struggle with this. I'll be going to therapy alone for a bit to get back to working on me.
> 
> Things are still improving with us, but it still doesn't quite feel like we're back together despite the declaration of intention (or whatever you'd like to call it). GF seems like she's slowly warming up and being more demonstrative with her caring, however. She's still uncertain about any idea of living together for at least another 6-8 months. She fears we'll mess it up if we try before then. I think she's just afraid of making commitments to me...justifiably so based on my past behavior. Not that it isn't maddening.


I'm sorry. I forgot to respond to your post.

SP, the main thing to keep in mind is that there is progress and things are moving forward. As you've said, her declaring you a couple again is a big step for her. Look at it like the huge risk for her that it obviously is. And acknowledge how much you appreciate that she is able to do this for you. Sometimes by responding positively to the little things, even though some off the bigger things haven't been done yet, can propel you down a good path and the other stuff just seems to fall into place. Right now my marriage is great. My wife and I always seem to be on the same page. Yet we don't fail to make sure we praise each other even for the smallest things. It keeps us on a track that had us feeling good and really into each other. That doesn't mean we don't drive each other crazy someone's and we do argue inn occasion. But because we keep the good vibes flowing it takes the dying out and the arguments and faults don't affect us like they might otherwise.


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## Forever Grateful

ScubaSteve61 said:


> Welcome, Grateful. Two quick bits of advice:
> 
> 1. Don't sweat the triggers. They will come. Give him what he wants. He wants space? Leave the room. He wants close? Grab on and don't let go.
> 
> 2. Make sure you let him know you love him. Don't just say it, show it. Old saying, but actions do indeed speak louder than words.
> 
> Anyway, welcome to TAM! Treat our man RTBP right!


Thanks. I try to not let it get me down. Block out how I'm feeling and be there for him if he wants me to. He can't go five minutes without me telling him that I love him. I wish I could be with him always, he says I follow him around more than our new puppies. Whatever he needs I'm more than willing to do it. Glad to be here and I will, I promise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workindad

FG glad you are here it shows guts and is an identifiable action. 

RTBP & FG I wish you the very best as you continue to navigate your path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> Grateful,
> 
> Welcome to the reconciliation thread. You will be treated with respect here and you will receive great advice from both fWS and BS alike.
> 
> The first suggestion I'd like to give you is to look up the stages of grief. I mention this because when a marriage goes through infidelity it is very much like the death of the old marriage and the stages of grief do occur. It will help you to prepare for the emotional rollercoaster that Refuse will be going through. Next I think you should be starting to read several books if you already haven't. You should read Surviving An Affair, His Needs Her Needs and Not Just Friends. These books are great to help you put things in perspective and give you loads of ideas as to how to insulate yourself from further issues and how to move forward. But those aren't the only books out there. Its just a start. I'm going to stress this heavily. You cannot reseach this enough. Whether its asking for advice on here and/or reading books its very important for you to start learning how these things happen and what the true ramifications are, although I'm sure you've already seen some first hand. The last thing I'd like to mention (so I don't overload you on the first day you posted) is to say "I love you" to Refuse as much as you can even when he shouts back that you can't possibly love him if you cheated on him. I won't call what happened a mistake but what I will say is that there isn't one perfect person in this world. We're all human and we all screw up. And yes we all hurt people we love sometimes. Its not the act of hurting that matters as much as the acts of atonement that truly define who we are as people.
> 
> Don't hesitate to post asking questions or just posting an update. It really helps to be able to talk to someone, have someone out there who really cares. None of us get paid for what we do. We're all here because we care and want to help. Use us as much as you need to. Again, welcome and I wish you all the success and happiness life has to offer.


I'll read up on the stages of grief today. I know he has gotten some books, not sure which ones but I'll talk to him and download them today. Whatever helps, I've been all over looking for help ever since we came back from our cruise. I'm always ready for advice on how to make things right. I'm always telling him how much I love him. He really hasn't shouted at me or anything like that for the most part. I assumed that's not the norm. Thank you, I'm glad he told me about this place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> I'll read up on the stages of grief today. I know he has gotten some books, not sure which ones but I'll talk to him and download them today. Whatever helps, I've been all over looking for help ever since we came back from our cruise. I'm always ready for advice on how to make things right. I'm always telling him how much I love him. He really hasn't shouted at me or anything like that for the most part. I assumed that's not the norm. Thank you, I'm glad he told me about this place.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One of the stages of grief is the anger stage. He will eventually reach this stage but since each person is different there's no telling when he'll get there or how long he'll remain in this stage. But when he does get there he WILL yell. You cannot react with (obviously) anger or defensiveness. And you will want to.

And do look up books to read. Remember that it not only helps to open your mind and eyes as to all the permutations of infidelity and its effects on everyone but it also demonstrates to Refuse that you are serious about the reconciliation and are truly concerned about his mind set and well being.

You both CAN get through this as long as you keep the end goal in sight and work at it together.


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## Refuse to be played

bfree the only book that I got out of the ones you recommended were His Needs, Her Needs and that doesn't get here until Monday. I told her to just get them on her ipad.

Oh and yeah she does tell me that she loves me often. To the point that it annoys me sometimes on a bad day.


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## Refuse to be played

FB took me out to dinner and then a karaoke bar last night. She wanted to sing a song together. Not gonna lie, it was fun.


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## CantSitStill

That's good news, the re-bonding is so important in reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> FB took me out to dinner and then a karaoke bar last night. She wanted to sing a song together. Not gonna lie, it was fun.


Thank you for going up with me. It really meant a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> bfree the only book that I got out of the ones you recommended were His Needs, Her Needs and that doesn't get here until Monday. I told her to just get them on her ipad.
> 
> Oh and yeah she does tell me that she loves me often. To the point that it annoys me sometimes on a bad day.


One book you might want to consider just for you is called Surviving Her Affair by Kevin Jackson. I know several other guys on TAM read it and said it was very helpful. You can get it free here:

Survive Her Affair - So Your Wife Cheated on www.gobookee.net - free eBook download

Even though sometimes her saying "I love you" might annoy you sometimes but believe me as you travel further down the road of reconciliation its going to help knowing that her words "I love you" are backed up by her actions. That's when you'll be able to start building up trust again.


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> One book you might want to consider just for you is called Surviving Her Affair by Kevin Jackson. I know several other guys on TAM read it and said it was very helpful. You can get it free here:
> 
> Survive Her Affair - So Your Wife Cheated on www.gobookee.net - free eBook download
> 
> Even though sometimes her saying "I love you" might annoy you sometimes but believe me as you travel further down the road of reconciliation its going to help knowing that her words "I love you" are backed up by her actions. That's when you'll be able to start building up trust again.


Just order it for him. Whatever helps. I will continue to tell him I love him and I'm reading up on other stories to better prepare myself for his anger stage. Usually when he's angry he wants to be left alone or goes to work out. Honestly though what kills me is when he gets depressed. He doesn't talk about his low moments much here but he is hurting a lot more than he lets on here and I hate myself for causing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> One book you might want to consider just for you is called Surviving Her Affair by Kevin Jackson. I know several other guys on TAM read it and said it was very helpful. You can get it free here:
> 
> Survive Her Affair - So Your Wife Cheated on www.gobookee.net - free eBook download
> 
> Even though sometimes her saying "I love you" might annoy you sometimes but believe me as you travel further down the road of reconciliation its going to help knowing that her words "I love you" are backed up by her actions. That's when you'll be able to start building up trust again.


I just ordered the book for him, whatever ever helps. I've been busy all day reading other stories to get a handle on the anger that should be coming. I continue and will continue to tell RTBP how much I love him. Usually when he is angry he wants to be alone or he will go work out. What kills me is when he gets depressed. He doesn't talk about it much and downplays it a lot but he is hurting a lot more than he lets on and can get really low. I hate what I've done to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> One book you might want to consider just for you is called Surviving Her Affair by Kevin Jackson. I know several other guys on TAM read it and said it was very helpful. You can get it free here:
> 
> Survive Her Affair - So Your Wife Cheated on www.gobookee.net - free eBook download
> 
> Even though sometimes her saying "I love you" might annoy you sometimes but believe me as you travel further down the road of reconciliation its going to help knowing that her words "I love you" are backed up by her actions. That's when you'll be able to start building up trust again.


I just ordered the book for him, whatever helps. I'm always telling him I love him and will continue to when hits this anger stage. I've been busy reading today trying to figure out what to expect. Now when he gets angry he usually wants to be left alone or he leaves to work out,what will be different? Honestly though I more hate seeing him depressed than angry. He doesn't post about his depression and constantly downplaying how he's feeling but he is hurting a lot more than he lets on. I hate that I did this to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> One book you might want to consider just for you is called Surviving Her Affair by Kevin Jackson. I know several other guys on TAM read it and said it was very helpful. You can get it free here:
> 
> Survive Her Affair - So Your Wife Cheated on www.gobookee.net - free eBook download
> 
> Even though sometimes her saying "I love you" might annoy you sometimes but believe me as you travel further down the road of reconciliation its going to help knowing that her words "I love you" are backed up by her actions. That's when you'll be able to start building up trust again.


I order the book for him earlier tonight, whatever helps. I've been telling him how much I love him and will continue to do so when he hits this anger stage. Usually when he gets angry he just wants to be alone or goes and work out, what will be different? Honestly though I hate seeing him depressed more than angry. He doesn't post or talk about his low moments much and constantly downplays them but he is hurting a lot more than he lets on. I hate that I did this to him.


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> One book you might want to consider just for you is called Surviving Her Affair by Kevin Jackson. I know several other guys on TAM read it and said it was very helpful. You can get it free here:
> 
> Survive Her Affair - So Your Wife Cheated on www.gobookee.net - free eBook download
> 
> Even though sometimes her saying "I love you" might annoy you sometimes but believe me as you travel further down the road of reconciliation its going to help knowing that her words "I love you" are backed up by her actions. That's when you'll be able to start building up trust again.


FG was trying to post earlier but her ipad wasn't cooperating. She said she order me the book earlier today. Its only annoying sometimes others its reassuring. I hope it continues to be more of the ladder and not the former.


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> One book you might want to consider just for you is called Surviving Her Affair by Kevin Jackson. I know several other guys on TAM read it and said it was very helpful. You can get it free here:
> 
> Survive Her Affair - So Your Wife Cheated on www.gobookee.net - free eBook download
> 
> Even though sometimes her saying "I love you" might annoy you sometimes but believe me as you travel further down the road of reconciliation its going to help knowing that her words "I love you" are backed up by her actions. That's when you'll be able to start building up trust again.


I just ordered the book for him, whatever helps. I'm always telling him I love him and will continue to when hits this anger stage. I've been busy reading today trying to figure out what to expect. Now when he gets angry he usually wants to be left alone or he leaves to work out,what will be different? Honestly though I more hate seeing him depressed than angry. He doesn't post about his depression and constantly downplaying how he's feeling but he is hurting a lot more than he lets on. I hate that I did this to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> FG was trying to post earlier but her ipad wasn't cooperating. She said she order me the book earlier today. Its only annoying sometimes others its reassuring. I hope it continues to be more of the ladder and not the former.


Hopefully its working now. I saw the book bfree suggested and figured whatever helps.

Yea it works!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> FG was trying to post earlier but her ipad wasn't cooperating. She said she order me the book earlier today. Its only annoying sometimes others its reassuring. I hope it continues to be more of the ladder and not the former.


My exW cheated on me and it almost destroyed me. Mrs bfree never has but she knows how hard that situation was on me. So she tends to do the things for me that a fWS might do for their BS. One of these things is to say "I love you" a lot. She says it so much more than any other spouse I know. And it really does make me feel so good to hear it. Forever saying it to you will, in the long run, really help you to heal. Its kind of like a salve that makes the wound feel better and heal faster. And the more you apply that salve the faster and better you will heal.


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## calvin

bfree said:


> My exW cheated on me and it almost destroyed me. Mrs bfree never has but she knows how hard that situation was on me. So she tends to do the things for me that a fWS might do for their BS. One of these things is to say "I love you" a lot. She says it so much more than any other spouse I know. And it really does make me feel so good to hear it. Forever saying it to you will, in the long run, really help you to heal. Its kind of like a salve that makes the wound feel better and heal faster. And the more you apply that salve the faster and better you will heal.


Yep,I like it when CSS says it and shows it,can make a bad day much better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Saying I love you is something that is a challenge for Matt and I right now. I'd like to say it to him, and say it often, but he doesn't want me to, so I censor myself when I feel like saying it. Occasionally it slips out before I can stop it, and then he usually wants to know "what that means today". So I try to describe all the different emotions that are wrapped up in "feeling love" at that moment. I wish I had never given him reason to believe that "love" is not a real emotion.


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## Forever Grateful

I tell him every chance I get. He usually doesn't respond and I get why I really do but it means so much to me when he does. He has only done it hand full of times since we've been back from our cruise. We talked about it in MC and I he said he does love me but isn't comfortable expressing it often and he doesn't want it to be forced. I wish there was something I can do to make him more comfortable expressing because it feels SO GOOD when he does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> One of the stages of grief is the anger stage. He will eventually reach this stage but since each person is different there's no telling when he'll get there or how long he'll remain in this stage. But when he does get there he WILL yell. You cannot react with (obviously) anger or defensiveness. And you will want to.
> 
> And do look up books to read. Remember that it not only helps to open your mind and eyes as to all the permutations of infidelity and its effects on everyone but it also demonstrates to Refuse that you are serious about the reconciliation and are truly concerned about his mind set and well being.
> 
> You both CAN get through this as long as you keep the end goal in sight and work at it together.


I'm ready for his anger stage. He hasn't really said much in anger in front of me and now reading his post I see that was intentional. If he needs to vent his anger at me then I'll take it if it will help him heal. Honestly though his anger isn't what worries me the most its his depression. I see he doesn't mention his low moments here often and he constantly tries to downplay it in counseling but he is hurting a lot more than he lets on. I had to push him hard to go see his doctor for the antidepressants. He started taking them last Thursday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> I'm ready for his anger stage. He hasn't really said much in anger in front of me and now reading his post I see that was intentional. If he needs to vent his anger at me then I'll take it if it will help him heal. Honestly though his anger isn't what worries me the most its his depression. I see he doesn't mention his low moments here often and he constantly tries to downplay it in counseling but he is hurting a lot more than he lets on. I had to push him hard to go see his doctor for the antidepressants. He started taking them last Thursday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Anti depressants are an excellent short term solution when dealing with something like this. Eventually he'll come off them and will still have to go through the rollercoaster but hopefully both of you will be in a better position to navigate the highs and lows. This stuff is tough. There is no preparing for such an intense life lesson. Both B1 and EI, the authors of this thread, have said on numerous occasions that no matter how difficult things got they continued to care deeply about each other, even when they thought there was no love anymore. That is what got them through and as long as you continue to care about each other and concern yourself with what the other is feeling you can make it too.


----------



## bfree

And remember that when he does get angry and hurts you it's because he's in tremendous emotional turmoil. It doesn't mean he stopped loving you. It's just that he is overwhelmed and confused and trying to get through.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Saying I love you is something that is a challenge for Matt and I right now. I'd like to say it to him, and say it often, but he doesn't want me to, so I censor myself when I feel like saying it. Occasionally it slips out before I can stop it, and then he usually wants to know "what that means today". So I try to describe all the different emotions that are wrapped up in "feeling love" at that moment. I wish I had never given him reason to believe that "love" is not a real emotion.


Mrs M, how long have you both been in R now? It's still pretty early yet isn't it?


----------



## cpacan

Two notes on the "ILY-thing" from me.
I'll not require my wife to say she loves me. It she doesn't feel it and can say it honestly, don't say it.

Second, I'm not comfortable saying it myself. I used to tell her several times each day, I don't anymore. I show her every way I can, but I have a hard time getting it through my teeth. I would like to, she definitely would like me to, but I get this uneasy feeling that she may not value it. I know it's stupid, but currently its one of the prices we still pay for infidelity two years later.

So think carefully about what these words actually mean to you and cherish them.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Bfree, we're at the 9 month mark. So relatively early, yes.

Cpacan, I understand what you are saying. Matt has always said ILY fairly infrequently, he has always felt that saying it too much somehow devalues it. For me, I disagree with that, but it's just one of the differences in our emotional needs and our methods of expressing ourselves. I could say it 10 times a day and REALLY mean it. I would never get tired of hearing it. But in the past, Matt always waited for the moment to *really* mean it before he would say it. Honestly, it's something that has been hard for me, pre-affair. Post-affair, I completely understand why he can't say that to me. It's not currently true. I hope each day that we get closer to a moment when it is true for him, and when he can accept the truth of it from me.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> I tell him every chance I get. He usually doesn't respond and I get why I really do but it means so much to me when he does. He has only done it hand full of times since we've been back from our cruise. We talked about it in MC and I he said he does love me but isn't comfortable expressing it often and he doesn't want it to be forced. I wish there was something I can do to make him more comfortable expressing because it feels SO GOOD when he does.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love you. Happy? And I haven't even started drinking yet. :rofl:
Seriously though I do love you, if I wouldn't be here if I didn't. Now come downstairs and join me on the couch. We got time to kill before we go out tonight.


----------



## calvin

For quite awhile I did nto want CSS to say "I love you".
She said it to the POS and I didnt want to hear it.All it did was trigger me.
She told me "I said it and I ment it",that hurts still.
Now she tells me it wasnt love it was a fantasy or stupidity.
If its a fantasy,isnt that something you really want to happen bad.
Now finally I want to hear it,her saying she ment it still bothers the hell out of me
Even 18 months out.
The ex-con told her that a lot,I know he didnt mean it,she was a play thing to him.
Still cant believe he told me he could talk to her if he wanted to.
After all his phone calls and threats I'm glad I ruined his so called life.
If it would have went physical,CSS and I would not be in R,but thats just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Think we'll head down the street to the carnival at the church again tonight.
Want more corn and I cant let my left over beer tickets go to waste.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Nrs M
> Saying I love you is something that is a challenge for Matt and I right now. I'd like to say it to him, and say it often, but he doesn't want me to, so I censor myself when I feel like saying it. Occasionally it slips out before I can stop it, and then he usually wants to know "what that means today". So I try to describe all the different emotions that are wrapped up in "feeling love" at that moment. *I wish I had never given him reason to believe that "love" is not a real emotion*.




*Love is a real emotion but it has to be proven by actions!*

Mrs. M I am not saying that you have not shown those actions; in fact I have read some of your posts that reveal that you have taken some of those actions.

I agree with the person that says that saying “I LOVE YOU” all the time can cheapen the word. *It is only cheapened when the frequency of the actions do not back up the frequency of the words* Love is such a powerful part of human assistance, it is like being sacred.

This may not be popular to say but I believe it to be true. Saying I love you , in early R, after you betray a spouse, just does not have the validity that convinces the BS. In fact in the early months that can be annoying. However, *after several years of actions that prove that you love that person, those words can again be very powerful.*

Even though the WS may mean it, those words of “I love you “ do not mean a whole lot in the early part of R and will only have a strong impact after lots of ACTIONS that prove love.

I know that the WS wants to hear the words of ILY but usually a BS is very sensitive about saying those words because *he wants those words to be fully meant and verified first.*

I know that saying I Love You is a very important part of relationships but I also know that *actions always speak louder than words*


----------



## bfree

My take is that "I love you" does have to be followed up with actions but saying the words even when the BS doesn't believe them sets the stage for the actions to come. Of course if the actions do not back up the words then the words are indeed hollow. But actions sometime take time. Time to implement and time to be recognized. I love you takes a second and can be said over and over. Then when the actions follow the BS can say "he/she really does love me!"


----------



## calvin

Very good bfree and Mr Blunt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Got to say I'd much rather CSS show the love.
Hugs,hand holding,arm around me and other ways.
Spinkle in a "I love you" here and there and it helps.
Hearing its nice,I want to feel it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

I love my wife. I luv you FG!!! NOW I've been drinking...

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


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## seasalt

Mrs. Mathias,

I'm not sure if the need to say and hear "I love you" is a gender item or not but sometimes in jest, and some times not so much in jest, I respond to my wife's "I love you" with a line we both appreciate that comes from a Debbie Reynolds/Albert Brooks movie that I think was entitled "Mama". Debbie Reynolds played Albert Brooks' mother and in one scene she tells him "I love you" and he replies "I know you think you do."

Your husband may know you think you do when now you say you love him but I bet it's harder now for him to likewise respond, even superficially. Work for the unsolicited, spontaneous "I love you" from him and then cherish it. No matter when or how it comes it will be worth the wait.

Seasalt


----------



## Refuse to be played

I didn't realize that not saying I love you was bothering FG that much. Thanks TAM!

We had a talk last night about it. I told her I'm simply not ready to say it like I use to and don't know when I will be. I have more than a few hang ups I'm nowhere near over. I then pointed out that I do show I love her other ways. I'm holding her hand for no reason again, I'm starting to hug her more, I'm trying to be more open about this R because I do want this to work. I notice what she's doing to show that she loves me as well. Most notable being when I get home from MT training I usually take a nap by myself. I often wake up to FG snuggled up next to me napping too or just watching me. At first it annoyed me to be honest but I'm warming up to it.

Babe there is nothing holding me here. We have no kids and I'd make out in a divorce. I would be more than fine living without you. I'm still here because I love you and you've been remorseful. So no I'm not ready to say it frequently yet...suck it up and deal.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Quotes of RTBP*
> I'm holding her hand for no reason again, I'm starting to hug her more, I'm trying to be more open about this R because I do want this to work.


*You are farther along than I thought! She is a lucky woman.*



> *Quotes of RTBP*
> Babe there is nothing holding me here. We have no kids and I'd make out in a divorce. I would be more than fine living without you. *I'm still here* because I love you and you've been remorseful. So no I'm not ready to say it frequently yet...suck it up and deal.


 *RTBP actions of “I’m still here” says a million words and can be believed more than the words of ILY!! IMO*


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> I didn't realize that not saying I love you was bothering FG that much. Thanks TAM!
> 
> We had a talk last night about it. I told her I'm simply not ready to say it like I use to and don't know when I will be. I have more than a few hang ups I'm nowhere near over. I then pointed out that I do show I love her other ways. I'm holding her hand for no reason again, I'm starting to hug her more, I'm trying to be more open about this R because I do want this to work. I notice what she's doing to show that she loves me as well. Most notable being when I get home from MT training I usually take a nap by myself. I often wake up to FG snuggled up next to me napping too or just watching me. At first it annoyed me to be honest but I'm warming up to it.
> 
> Babe there is nothing holding me here. We have no kids and I'd make out in a divorce. I would be more than fine living without you. I'm still here because I love you and you've been remorseful. So no I'm not ready to say it frequently yet...suck it up and deal.


I hear ya brother,I work long hours by choice,I have a fam to support and provide for.
CSS lost appreciation for me,I did the same to her.
Sometimes I need a quick nap whn I come home,I ask her to wake me 
at a certain time.
When she does wake me its with gentle kisses and whispers til
I start coming out of my sleep.
I can not convey enough how great her style of waking me up feels.
Its heaven.
To see her pretty face and soft words,well I cant describe it.
It is a beautiful way to wake up.
She smells good,her voice if soft and she nudges my face with hers.
When my eyes crack open and I see her looking into mine.
Well...there is nothing quite like it.
Sorry,hard to explain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Fireworks tonight!!
Cant wait.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Mr Blunt said:


> *You are farther along than I thought! She is a lucky woman.*
> 
> 
> *RTBP actions of “I’m still here” says a million words and can be believed more than the words of ILY!! IMO*


Yes I am very lucky. He is truly amazing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I didn't realize that not saying I love you was bothering FG that much. Thanks TAM!
> 
> We had a talk last night about it. I told her I'm simply not ready to say it like I use to and don't know when I will be. I have more than a few hang ups I'm nowhere near over. I then pointed out that I do show I love her other ways. I'm holding her hand for no reason again, I'm starting to hug her more, I'm trying to be more open about this R because I do want this to work. I notice what she's doing to show that she loves me as well. Most notable being when I get home from MT training I usually take a nap by myself. I often wake up to FG snuggled up next to me napping too or just watching me. At first it annoyed me to be honest but I'm warming up to it.
> 
> Babe there is nothing holding me here. We have no kids and I'd make out in a divorce. I would be more than fine living without you. I'm still here because I love you and you've been remorseful. So no I'm not ready to say it frequently yet...suck it up and deal.


I am dealing with it and I recognize you are trying your hardest. Thank you so much for trying to make this work. I am so sorry and I love you so much. If you want company when you take a nap just let me know and I'll join you next time. I keep reading this post and I can't stop tearing up. I really wish you were home right now. I love you too RTBP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> I hear ya brother,I work long hours by choice,I have a fam to support and provide for.
> CSS lost appreciation for me,I did the same to her.
> Sometimes I need a quick nap whn I come home,I ask her to wake me
> at a certain time.
> When she does wake me its with gentle kisses and whispers til
> I start coming out of my sleep.
> I can not convey enough how great her style of waking me up feels.
> Its heaven.
> To see her pretty face and soft words,well I cant describe it.
> It is a beautiful way to wake up.
> She smells good,her voice if soft and she nudges my face with hers.
> When my eyes crack open and I see her looking into mine.
> Well...there is nothing quite like it.
> Sorry,hard to explain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This sounds so sweet. I'm going to do this next time RTBP is napping. You've been warned babe. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> This sounds so sweet. I'm going to do this next time RTBP is napping. You've been warned babe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Show him FG.
You can make an impact that will last with him.
Dont stop.
CSS 
has been making me orbit around her love.
She's drawing me back in,wont be long til the gravity of her love
Just pulls me all the way in til we are one again.
Dont stop,keep showing him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Show him FG.
> You can make an impact that will last with him.
> Dont stop.
> CSS
> has been making me orbit around her love.
> She's drawing me back in,wont be long til the gravity of her love
> Just pulls me all the way in til we are one again.
> Dont stop,keep showing him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh I'll keep it up alright. RTBP just got home from the gym and is getting ready to hop in the shower. I think I'll join him...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> I'm sorry. I forgot to respond to your post.
> 
> SP, the main thing to keep in mind is that there is progress and things are moving forward. As you've said, her declaring you a couple again is a big step for her. Look at it like the huge risk for her that it obviously is. And acknowledge how much you appreciate that she is able to do this for you. Sometimes by responding positively to the little things, even though some off the bigger things haven't been done yet, can propel you down a good path and the other stuff just seems to fall into place. Right now my marriage is great. My wife and I always seem to be on the same page. Yet we don't fail to make sure we praise each other even for the smallest things. It keeps us on a track that had us feeling good and really into each other. That doesn't mean we don't drive each other crazy someone's and we do argue inn occasion. But because we keep the good vibes flowing it takes the dying out and the arguments and faults don't affect us like they might otherwise.


Thanks, bfree.  I hear you; I am positive and thankful with GF and make sure to express that. I apologize every time she talks about the pain my infidelity caused her (not just "I'm sorry," but being specific/detailed), and she has actually gotten to the point of telling me that I don't need to say such things anymore. But I still do. We had a conversation this weekend and she clarified that we are indeed officially back together (and therefore in R). She has been talking about our future together and what kind of home we should choose when we live together again.  

Like others here, GF didn't want to say she loved me or hear me say I loved her for months. But now she's saying it and I'm allowed to say it again, too.

We were also trapped in a negative interaction cycle (we had been slipping into it more and more over the years), but have finally managed to get back into a positive cycle. It's full of things like the praise and affirmation you mention. Those small things are way more important than either of us originally thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> This sounds so sweet. I'm going to do this next time RTBP is napping. You've been warned babe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you. Your more than welcome to try it out.



Forever Grateful said:


> Oh *I'll keep it up alright*. *(Yes you do )* RTBP just got home from the gym and is getting ready to hop in the shower. I think I'll join him...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the company. So, wanna have an encore later?


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I hear you. Your more than welcome to try it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the company. So, wanna have an encore later?


Oh yeah 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Oh yeah
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nice to see you both here.
Miracles do happen.
Hang tight guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

GF was so caring towards me this weekend. She was thinking of me so much, and I could see that.

We are getting our couple-ness back, slowly but surely. We are really opening up to each other again. I am so grateful that GF is still here to make memories with. I'm always aware of that feeling of gratitude, but it's especially strong at those times that are just "us". Like when she gives me the smile that's just for me, or when I get to do things for her - then I'm like, "Wow, I am so lucky to have the privilege." That is amazing. I am so relieved that I have the chance to rebuild with her and a second chance to do things right. 

Calvin is right - miracles DO happen.


----------



## soulpotato

FG, glad to see you here, and wishing you and RTBP the best.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> GF was so caring towards me this weekend. She was thinking of me so much, and I could see that.
> 
> We are getting our couple-ness back, slowly but surely. We are really opening up to each other again. I am so grateful that GF is still here to make memories with. I'm always aware of that feeling of gratitude, but it's especially strong at those times that are just "us". Like when she gives me the smile that's just for me, or when I get to do things for her - then I'm like, "Wow, I am so lucky to have the privilege." That is amazing. I am so relieved that I have the chance to rebuild with her and a second chance to do things right.
> 
> Calvin is right - miracles DO happen.


It makes me happy to hear that Sp,glad for you.
I'm sure there will be a few bumps but you both are on your
way.
Miracles do happen....believe it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Thanks, Calvin.  I know there were will be rough spots and we still have work ahead of us on the relationship, but I am ready and will not let up on making improvements in myself or looking for ways that I can bring GF happiness and show her what she means to me.


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> FG, glad to see you here, and wishing you and RTBP the best.


Thanks...right back at you.


----------



## calvin

R is hard and I mean the hardest thing I ever had to do.
Having a truely,genuine remorseful spouse can make a world of difference.
I know if I had been the WS I'd want the chance to prov myself.
This is something I have to remind myself a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

FG is now upset because I start class next week and she'll be home alone with the pups for most of the day. Keep telling her feel free to come up to campus and see me in between classes.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> FG is now upset because I start class next week and she'll be home alone with the pups for most of the day. Keep telling her feel free to come up to campus and see me in between classes.


We'll be here.

Seriously though. Could you guys do lunch?


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> We'll be here.
> 
> Seriously though. Could you guys do lunch?


Yeah she's more than welcome to meet me on campus and come hang out. We can eat breakfast in the morning, I don't leave home until about 10. I'll get out at 3 then head over to my MT gym to train for about 3 hrs. She can come watch me train as well, she likes that.

Or she can just hang out at home until I get back. Watch tv, play video games, go on TAM, play with the Ares and Athena, or send me text messages (dirty ones plz).


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> Yeah she's more than welcome to meet me on campus and come hang out. We can eat breakfast in the morning, I don't leave home until about 10. I'll get out at 3 then head over to my MT gym to train for about 3 hrs. She can come watch me train as well, she likes that.
> 
> Or she can just hang out at home until I get back. Watch tv, play video games, go on TAM, play with the Ares and Athena, or send me text messages (dirty ones plz).


Ok, I have to ask. Ares and Athena.....Dobermans or Rottweilers?


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> Ok, I have to ask. Ares and Athena.....Dobermans or Rottweilers?


Rottweilers. 8 weeks old I think. Two weeks ago I came home opened the front door and heard puppy yapping and him run up to me with a huge smile on his face saying guess what I just got. It was so cute watching them together its like he's a giant kid. He was rolling around on the ground playing with them until Athena peed on him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> Rottweilers. 8 weeks old I think. Two weeks ago I came home opened the front door and heard puppy yapping and him run up to me with a huge smile on his face saying guess what I just got. It was so cute watching them together its like he's a giant kid. He was rolling around on the ground playing with them until Athena peed on him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rottweilers...I knew it! They are so cute. Like little balls of bears.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Rottweilers...I knew it! They are so cute. Like little balls of bears.


You like balls of bears bfree?
Interesting.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

When it comes to him starting class next week I just feel anxious about it. Slightly like I felt when he left for 2 weeks. I was terrified he was going to have what I now know is a RA. I'm glad he decided not tell too many of his friends because I don't want it spread around his campus. Some of them are bad enough already. Last spring one girl was blatantly trying to flirt with RTBP right in front of me at a party. Its not him I don't trust its them. I know I'm being a hypocrite not wanting him to and I probably deserve it but the thought of him with another woman kills me. The fear is always in the back of my mind that he'll decide to go through with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> When it comes to him starting class next week I just feel anxious about it. Slightly like I felt when he left for 2 weeks. I was terrified he was going to have what I now know is a RA. I'm glad he decided not tell too many of his friends because I don't want it spread around his campus. Some of them are bad enough already. Last spring one girl was blatantly trying to flirt with RTBP right in front of me at a party. Its not him I don't trust its them. I know I'm being a hypocrite not wanting him to and I probably deserve it but the thought of him with another woman kills me. The fear is always in the back of my mind that he'll decide to go through with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It happens but I dont think its that often at all.
Once you experience the pain of infidelity a RA did cross my mind but what would that accomplish?
It would make things much worse.
Even though at the time I wanted CSS to feel some of the pain there was no way I could put her through that.
I hated her but still loved her at the time.
From what I see RAs seem to be rare.
No one deserves to be cheated on,not even the WS.
Glad you both found this place.
Wishing you the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Ask Mattmatt about revenge affairs. He did it and said it hurt worse than when his wife cheated on him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> It happens but I dont think its that often at all.
> Once you experience the pain of infidelity a RA did cross my mind but what would that accomplish?
> It would make things much worse.
> Even though at the time I wanted CSS to feel some of the pain there was no way I could put her through that.
> I hated her but still loved her at the time.
> From what I see RAs seem to be rare.
> No one deserves to be cheated on,not even the WS.
> Glad you both found this place.
> Wishing you the best.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad we found TAM too. Glad to hear that RA's aren't common. RTBP also mentioned feeling both both love and hate. God I hate myself for putting him through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I know what you mean forever grateful. This is the worst thing calvin ever went through and it's because I decided to risk my marriage and almost lost him because of my immature choices. I wish I could go back in time and do what I should have done by working at fixing our problems with marriage counseling. Well actually we went to MC during my EA but was so distracted by the SOB other man. Ugg makes me sick and that self hatred is hard to get out of. But listen, you must work on that so that you can be the wife he needs. It is not easy to work on your self esteem after what you did yet it is necessary for a healthy marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> You like balls of bears bfree?
> Interesting.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only as it relates to puppies.


----------



## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> I know what you mean forever grateful. This is the worst thing calvin ever went through and it's because I decided to risk my marriage and almost lost him because of my immature choices. I wish I could go back in time and do what I should have done by working at fixing our problems with marriage counseling. Well actually we went to MC during my EA but was so distracted by the SOB other man. Ugg makes me sick and that self hatred is hard to get out of. But listen, you must work on that so that you can be the wife he needs. It is not easy to work on your self esteem after what you did yet it is necessary for a healthy marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah this is the worst thing RTBP went through as well and he had a few really bad experiences in his past. I don't know if I can ever truly forgive myself. I'm trying to get over how I feel and be there for him. In IC I'm we're working on my insecurities and self-esteem issues from my past and a few things from this A as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Only as it relates to puppies.


I couldnt resist
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> Rottweilers...I knew it! They are so cute. Like little balls of bears.


Rotts are awesome, I had to before when I was a kid. In fact I had 2 Rottweilers, a Great Dane, a Pit bull, and a German Shepard. I like big dogs.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> When it comes to him starting class next week I just feel anxious about it. Slightly like I felt when he left for 2 weeks. I was terrified he was going to have what I now know is a RA. I'm glad he decided not tell too many of his friends because I don't want it spread around his campus. Some of them are bad enough already. Last spring one girl was blatantly trying to flirt with RTBP right in front of me at a party. Its not him I don't trust its them. I know I'm being a hypocrite not wanting him to and I probably deserve it but the thought of him with another woman kills me. The fear is always in the back of my mind that he'll decide to go through with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Babe I've been feeling pretty good for a few days now, don't ruin it getting all insecure. We went over this before. I. AM. NOT. GOING. TO. HAVE. A. REVENGE. AFFAIR! And you ALWAYS bring up that party as your justification for being all possessive and stuff but you never mention that I immediately told her off. What part of I'm still here don't you get?

Ok back to happy. :smthumbup:


----------



## EI

I just want to chime in, briefly, and say that I have a very good feeling about RTBP and FG.  The witty banter between the two of you reminds me of another "couple" on the Reconciliation thread. They don't post very often, anymore, but I hear they're doing very well!


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## calvin

Its a f'd up way to get there but R can open up a couples eyes
and make them see why they fell in love to begin with.
Its not just the WS that takes a hard look at themselves,the BS does also.
God if people would just stop and do some counseling before crap spun out
Of control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

EI said:


> I just want to chime in, briefly, and say that I have a very good feeling about RTBP and FG.  The witty banter between the two of you reminds me of another "couple" on the Reconciliation thread. They don't post very often, anymore, but I hear they're doing very well!


Thanks a lot EI. I hope we follow in their foot steps then. Yeah we like to snark each other a lot as well (among other things). Not counting the last 8 months, I think we always got along so great because we started off as good friends with a ton in common. I know in marriages people throw the term 'best friend' around a lot but its true for us. She really is/was my best friend.


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Its a f'd up way to get there but R can open up a couples eyes
> and make them see why they fell in love to begin with.
> Its not just the WS that takes a hard look at themselves,the BS does also.
> God if people would just stop and do some counseling before crap spun out
> Of control.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are still working on the why it happened but in MC we go over most of our issues from before the A. Literally all of them were easily solvable or not that big a deal in the first place. Just a bit of somewhat poor communication really.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> We are still working on the why it happened but in MC we go over most of our issues from before the A. Literally all of them were easily solvable or not that big a deal in the first place. Just a bit of somewhat poor communication really.


Mrs bfree is big on building a strong marriage before there are problems (no doubt because of what happened to me before we got together.) One of the most important things I've learned is to recognize non verbal communication. Face it, even the best communicators don't always communicate very well at times. But learning those facial expressions, unusual quiet times, even when you just have a feeling something is a little off is so important. I know early on in our marriage there were times when I knew something was up but I chose to ignore it figuring that if it was important she would say something. WRONG! On TAM we say all the time trust your gut. Well that works in many instances. Use these times when your gut says something is up to start a discussion, especially when you are dealing with someone who doesn't share easily.


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Thanks a lot EI. I hope we follow in their foot steps then. Yeah we like to snark each other a lot as well (among other things). Not counting the last 8 months, I think we always got along so great because we started off as good friends with a ton in common. I know in marriages people throw the term 'best friend' around a lot but its true for us. She really is/was my best friend.


You're still my best friend. Always. I love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> Mrs bfree is big on building a strong marriage before there are problems (no doubt because of what happened to me before we got together.) One of the most important things I've learned is to recognize non verbal communication. Face it, even the best communicators don't always communicate very well at times. But learning those facial expressions, unusual quiet times, even when you just have a feeling something is a little off is so important. I know early on in our marriage there were times when *I knew something was up but I chose to ignore it figuring that if it was important she would say something.* WRONG! On TAM we say all the time trust your gut. Well that works in many instances. Use these times when your gut says something is up to start a discussion, especially when you are dealing with *someone who doesn't share easily.*


That is her to a T. In the past getting her to open up was like pulling freaking teeth. She got better and began sharing things so I just assumed if she wasn't saying anything then nothing was wrong. Silly me


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## Mr Blunt

> *Quote of FG*
> When it comes to him starting class next week I just feel anxious about it. Slightly like I felt when he left for 2 weeks. I was terrified he was going to have what I now know is a RA
> 
> Its not him I don't trust its them.



FG
You being terrified that RTBP is going to have a RA is really telling him that you do not trust him. You said *“ Its not him I don't trust its them.”* But that statement seems to have some faulty logic in it.

RTBP is a big boy and knows how to handle women that want him to satisfy their selfishness. He even told off that woman at the party that was baiting him. That is a very strong action that proves that RTBP knows how to handle temptations. Not every man would do that. FG, do you think that RTBG is so weak that he will be defenseless against selfish women?

RTBP has taken actions that speak louder than words. At first it can be flatering that your wife/gf is jealous but that jealousy can also be a statement that your wife/GF does not trust you and thinks that you are weak. That is not real good for building up a relationship.

FG
I am not trying to put you down. I know that you have insecurities as many people do. However, you have to be smart and not let those insecurities damage your self and your man. I am glad that you are working with an IC. Keep building up your security because that is probably the best action you can take in order to get yourself and your man to have a good chance at a long-term successful R.

You sound like a sincere person that really wants to make the best of your situation. Almost everyone on this forum loves to see a couple be put back together. I can tell you that it is very possible to have a good LONG_TERM marriage after an affair. My comrade WAZZA and I have over 20+ years of successful R. 

However, I did not have the same scenario that you and RTBP have; and I am speaking of the pregnancy. So I hope that someone that has that factor in their successful R will post on here to help both of you. As I said earlier almost all here want to see you and RTBP have an R but you both will need extra help.

We do not know you personally but we have experienced a lot of the pain that you both have. No one wins when there is no forgiveness in an affair. We are pulling for you both but it is going to be mostly both of your efforts that are going to count.


Blunt


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## Refuse to be played

Mr Blunt said:


> FG
> You being terrified that RTBP is going to have a RA is really telling him that you do not trust him. You said *“ Its not him I don't trust its them.”* But that statement seems to have some faulty logic in it.
> 
> RTBP is a big boy and knows how to handle women that want him to satisfy their selfishness. He even told off that woman at the party that was baiting him. That is a very strong action that proves that RTBP knows how to handle temptations. Not every man would do that. FG, do you think that RTBG is so weak that he will be defenseless against selfish women?
> 
> RTBP has taken actions that speak louder than words. At first it can be flatering that your wife/gf is jealous but that jealousy can also be a statement that your wife/GF does not trust you and thinks that you are weak. That is not real good for building up a relationship.
> 
> FG
> I am not trying to put you down. I know that you have insecurities as many people do. However, you have to be smart and not let those insecurities damage your self and your man. I am glad that you are working with an IC. Keep building up your security because that is probably the best action you can take in order to get yourself and your man to have a good chance at a long-term successful R.
> 
> You sound like a sincere person that really wants to make the best of your situation. Almost everyone on this forum loves to see a couple be put back together. I can tell you that it is very possible to have a good LONG_TERM marriage after an affair. My comrade WAZZA and I have over 20+ years of successful R.
> 
> However, I did not have the same scenario that you and RTBP have; and I am speaking of the pregnancy. So I hope that someone that has that factor in their successful R will post on here to help both of you. As I said earlier almost all here want to see you and RTBP have an R but you both will need extra help.
> 
> We do not know you personally but we have experienced a lot of the pain that you both have. No one wins when there is no forgiveness in an affair. We are pulling for you both but it is going to be mostly both of your efforts that are going to count.
> 
> 
> Blunt


This so much. I found it a little bit cute and amusing at first and I usually try to let it go because her libido shoots through the roof for a few days but after a while it is just so annoying when she gets like that. I do find it disrespectful a bit that she doesn't trust me like that especially when I feel I never gave her a reason to doubt me. Its one of the things she is working on by herself in IC and with me in MC.

I hope we can get to the point where this is just a bad memory that happened 20+ yrs ago. I'm working on the forgiveness thing but I'm a LONG way off. It helps that she ended it herself. I just hate what it took to snap her out of it.

She is dealing with a ton of guilt, regret, and self-hatred but not all of it is because of what she did to me. Its over the pregnancy as well. I know this may sound harsh but I told her not to bring it up with me. She really can only talk about it to her IC and her baby sister. I'm off limits, her mom is VERY catholic, her older sister still isn't talking to her, and her brother is deployed. She didn't mention it earlier because she knows I'll read it but its ok, if she can find somewhere on TAM to talk about then more power to her.


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## Forever Grateful

I'm sorry that I feel that way and I trying to change that. My insecurities and fear of him just leaving has been in overdrive since he started what I now know is the 180 before I left for my last trip to Germany before Dday and then doubled. We just talked. I asked him if he wanted me to not visit him on campus to show I trust him but he told me to come up when ever I want. And I am improving on being more vocal and I didn't know if this is something I should have brought up or left alone. And while I agree my possessiveness is disrespectful I don't think he is weak. He is the strongest guy I know to attempt what he is doing despite what he's going through and I love him SO MUCH for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> I'm sorry that I feel that way and I trying to change that. My insecurities and fear of him just leaving has been in overdrive since he started what I now know is the 180 before I left for my last trip to Germany before Dday and then doubled. We just talked. I asked him if he wanted me to not visit him on campus to show I trust him but he told me to come up when ever I want. And I am improving on being more vocal and I didn't know if this is something I should have brought up or left alone. And while I agree my possessiveness is disrespectful I don't think he is weak. He is the strongest guy I know to attempt what he is doing despite what he's going through and I love him SO MUCH for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG,

I don't want to specifically bring anything up that might make you uncomfortable or trigger RTBP but you really should use TAM as a secondary resource for issues that you might not be able to talk to him about. You can either start a thread in the private section and tell RTBP that he might not want to read it because of the content on the discussion. Or alternatively you can PM some others on TAM to talk. Part of what makes this site great is not just the advice but the simple act off putting it out there and getting it off your chest. It's extremely therapeutic to not hold in your thoughts and emotions. I urge you to use TAM to the fullest, not just for your sake but for RTBP's sake as well.


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## soulpotato

FG seeming to be distrustful of RTBP may be more about her (possible) trust issues and less about whether or not he is trustworthy. I have this same problem. GF has gotten upset at me before for being afraid she was going to wash her hands of me or pick up with someone else - saying I didn't trust her - but in reality, I trust her more than I've ever trusted anyone. And we both did things to break the other's trust along the way, so yeah, I did trust her less than I used to. Regardless of what she has or hasn't done, however, my distrust is more about my trust issues, not about whether or not she is trustworthy. It's not something one can help with a snap of the fingers. It's something that is deeply ingrained from the formative years and certain life events, and will no doubt take lots of therapy to get through. 

Part of our breakthrough a couple months ago (after it was nearly all over) was me suddenly opening up and being completely vulnerable with her, deciding on some level to TRUST her. Sounds funny since I was the wayward, but there you have it. She just recently related that seeing me totally stripped down in that one therapy session with all my feelings plain on my face was powerfully moving for her. At that moment, we both finally moved towards each other at the same time.

I was trying to tell her this weekend how at that moment, I knew I just couldn't stand to lose her, and I got all choked up again.  It feels strange to cry so freely.

FG, if you want/need to talk, feel free to hit me up.


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## Forever Grateful

He is trustworthy its my issues that are the problem. Issues from the past lead me to have self-esteem problems and low self worth. I always had a fear of not being good enough. I guess a part of me still perceives us as we were back in HS if that makes sense. I'm working through this with my IC and I'm trying to let go and relax but it's hard sometimes. Just a lot of different negative feelings floating around in my head and I'm trying to sort them out. Not use to opening up and reflecting on myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> He is trustworthy its my issues that are the problem. Issues from the past lead me to have self-esteem problems and low self worth. I always had a fear of not being good enough. I guess a part of me still perceives us as we were back in HS if that makes sense. I'm working through this with my IC and I'm trying to let go and relax but it's hard sometimes. Just a lot of different negative feelings floating around in my head and I'm trying to sort them out. Not use to opening up and reflecting on myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reminds my of CSS somewhat.
She had feelings like that also.
I tried to build her up but she always questioned herself years before
her A.
She has learned how to understand her worth to me,the kids and as
a good person who has quite a bit to offer to others.
We both are working on us and its getting better.
Not easy but I see daylight.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> He is trustworthy its my issues that are the problem. Issues from the past lead me to have self-esteem problems and low self worth. I always had a fear of not being good enough. I guess a part of me still perceives us as we were back in HS if that makes sense. I'm working through this with my IC and I'm trying to let go and relax but it's hard sometimes. Just a lot of different negative feelings floating around in my head and I'm trying to sort them out. Not use to opening up and reflecting on myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We talked about it in MC today. I know she can't change overnight and she is making progress. I keep emphasizing that we aren't who we were back 9-10 yrs ago. You grown so much as a person since then and I'm no longer a jerk (most of the time). If I didn't think you were good enough I wouldn't have busted my a## to help you finish school. And if I didn't think you could be good enough again I would be long gone now. Stop stressing we got enough problem already.


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## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Reminds my of CSS somewhat.
> She had feelings like that also.
> I tried to build her up but she always questioned herself years before
> her A.
> She has learned how to understand her worth to me,the kids and as
> a good person who has quite a bit to offer to others.
> We both are working on us and its getting better.
> Not easy but I see daylight.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This does sounds like FG minus the kids part. Glad to hear you two are hanging tough and making it through.


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## soulpotato

RTBP, I think I get what FG is saying with regard to all the stuff in her head. It is like a freight train. She would like to stop it, but can't yet do so - that is what the therapy is for. I doubt she's trying to borrow trouble, especially at this point - it's just that maybe her head is too noisy for her to not try to talk about some of this stuff. Sounds like FG is still carrying stuff around from years ago, and she needs help letting go of it/dealing with it. Logic alone can't really dismantle those things.

I could be way off base, but that's how it reads to me.


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## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> He is trustworthy its my issues that are the problem. Issues from the past lead me to have self-esteem problems and low self worth. I always had a fear of not being good enough. I guess a part of me still perceives us as we were back in HS if that makes sense. I'm working through this with my IC and I'm trying to let go and relax but it's hard sometimes. Just a lot of different negative feelings floating around in my head and I'm trying to sort them out. Not use to opening up and reflecting on myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG, I relate to the self-esteem and self-worth problems, and the fear of not being good enough. I have trouble relaxing in a lot of ways (in IC, too) and breaking out of negative thought patterns in general. I do a decent amount of self-reflection, but there have historically been blind spots and warped places, which is why a therapist is so necessary, IMO. Definitely need a qualified third party's input on what's going on when you have issues. Hell, even people with relatively few issues probably need that sometimes, but especially people with deeper issues.


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## Forever Grateful

SP you've pretty much nailed it. A bunch of issues I've held onto for a long time. I had counseling back in HS but stopped when I went to college. I should have never stopped. I KNOW how I'm feeling is stupid and counterproductive to our R but I can't really help it. It is irrational and is frustrating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

FG...you know what helps builds confidence? Learning a Martial Art. You know, what I've been trying to get you do for a month.


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## Refuse to be played

On a side note FG and I are going on a camping trip this weekend to the Wisconsin Dells. Going with my Muay Thai instructor and his family and a few others from my gym. Has anyone been their before? All I know is they have those duck tour buses that go in the water.


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## CantSitStill

Our honeymoon was at Wisconsin Dells, lots of fun stuff there. Loved the duck ride. Have a good getaway it will really help. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

Our last trip on the cruise I was able to turn this A stuff off for a while and just enjoy it. Hopefully I'll be able to do it this time. I just checked the website. They have zip lining...that has my name all over it. What say you FG? :rofl:


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Our last trip on the cruise I was able to turn this A stuff off for a while and just enjoy it. Hopefully I'll be able to do it this time. I just checked the website. They have zip lining...that has my name all over it. What say you FG? :rofl:


Hell no have fun though. I'm interested in the indoor water parks. Looks fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> SP you've pretty much nailed it. A bunch of issues I've held onto for a long time. I had counseling back in HS but stopped when I went to college. I should have never stopped. I KNOW how I'm feeling is stupid and counterproductive to our R but I can't really help it. It is irrational and is frustrating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you, FG. If sheer willpower were enough to rectify things, we wouldn't need therapy! Being at war with those feelings (not to mention one's self) takes up a lot of energy. I know it makes R more challenging.  There were days working towards R that I was about at the end of my rope and going crazy because of that very thing.

It took me years to get into therapy again after I quit going in high school, too. Tough to find a good therapist who's suited to you, not to mention the issues of insurance and $.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> On a side note FG and I are going on a camping trip this weekend to the Wisconsin Dells. Going with my Muay Thai instructor and his family and a few others from my gym. Has anyone been their before? All I know is they have those duck tour buses that go in the water.


We've been there a couple times,we had a nice cabin with a hot tub.
The horseback ridding was fun,parts of the trail were a couple feet away
from a cliff,it was wild,didnt phase the horses any.
You'll find plenty of stuff to do,we never got bored.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScubaSteve61

Refuse to be played said:


> FG...you know what helps builds confidence? Learning a Martial Art. You know, what I've been trying to get you do for a month.


Talk to my W about that. She is prepping for her Tae Kwon Do black belt test. She can punch and kick me in ways I never see coming lol! Luckily I can still overpower her once I get inside the strikes.


----------



## EI

Refuse to be played said:


> Our last trip on the cruise I was able to turn this A stuff off for a while and just enjoy it. Hopefully I'll be able to do it this time. I just checked the website. They have zip lining...that has my name all over it. What say you FG? :rofl:


Zip lining and parachuting from a plane (my father was a paratrooper with the 503rd in a World War II with 3 combat jumps)...... are on my list of things to do before I turn the big 5-0  next year! (I can't believe I just typed that out... )

Four years ago, B1 and I had made reservations (at my request) to zip line on our 25th anniversary trip in Gatlinburg, TN. At the last minute, he talked me out of it and we spent the next 4 hours and just as much money at the Bass Pro Shop on the day of our actual anniversary. I'm 100% certain that he will not make *THAT* mistake next year on our 30th anniversary!  Instead, we will be renewing our wedding vows (at his request and to my delight.) Afterwards, if we haven't already zip lined, we will be doing so. Right, Honey!


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## soulpotato

Haha, I've tried to talk GF into zip-lining, but she wants no part of it! It's funny, because she's usually the one more interested in trying new things and I'm the one who is like NOOO, ANXIETY.


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> Zip lining and parachuting from a plane (my father was a paratrooper with the 503rd in a World War II with 3 combat jumps)...... are on my list of things to do before I turn the big 5-0  next year! (I can't believe I just typed that out... )
> 
> Four years ago, B1 and I had made reservations (at my request) to zip line on our 25th anniversary trip in Gatlinburg, TN. At the last minute, he talked me out of it and we spent the next 4 hours and just as much money at the Bass Pro Shop on the day of our actual anniversary. I'm 100% certain that he will not make *THAT* mistake next year on our 30th anniversary!  Instead, we will be renewing our wedding vows (at his request and to my delight.) Afterwards, if we haven't already zip lined, we will be doing so. Right, Honey!


RTBP wants to go skydiving too ever since we went parasailing on our cruise. He is on his own for that too. Don't sweat turning 50 because you look frickin GREAT!!!

Renewing your vows sounds so sweet. Maybe RTBP will be interested in renewing ours one day. Hope you have great 30th next year and he better! Lol I hope we get to the point were we have an awesome 30th anniversary. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Haha, I've tried to talk GF into zip-lining, but she wants no part of it! It's funny, because she's usually the one more interested in trying new things and I'm the one who is like NOOO, ANXIETY.


Being adventurous and trying new things is all well and good but I prefer to keep my feet on the ground thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

ScubaSteve61 said:


> Talk to my W about that. She is prepping for her Tae Kwon Do black belt test. She can punch and kick me in ways I never see coming lol! Luckily I can still overpower her once I get inside the strikes.


It concerns me that you are strategizing how to defeat your wife. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Forever Grateful said:


> RTBP wants to go skydiving too ever since we went parasailing on our cruise. He is on his own for that too. Don't sweat turning 50 because you look frickin GREAT!!!
> 
> Renewing your vows sounds so sweet. Maybe RTBP will be interested in renewing ours one day. Hope you have great 30th next year and he better! Lol I hope we get to the point were we have an awesome 30th anniversary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I did get to parasail in Panama City several years ago. B1 enjoyed it immensely....... with his behind planted firmly on the beach!


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## bfree

EI said:


> I did get to parasail in Panama City several years ago. B1 enjoyed it immensely....... *with his behind planted firmly on the beach*!


That's my boy! :smthumbup:


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## Refuse to be played

EI said:


> Zip lining and parachuting from a plane (my father was a paratrooper with the 503rd in a World War II with 3 combat jumps)...... are on my list of things to do before I turn the big 5-0  next year! (I can't believe I just typed that out... )
> 
> Four years ago, B1 and I had made reservations (at my request) to zip line on our 25th anniversary trip in Gatlinburg, TN. At the last minute, he talked me out of it and we spent the next 4 hours and just as much money at the Bass Pro Shop on the day of our actual anniversary. I'm 100% certain that he will not make *THAT* mistake next year on our 30th anniversary!  Instead, we will be renewing our wedding vows (at his request and to my delight.) Afterwards, if we haven't already zip lined, we will be doing so. Right, Honey!


My granddad fought in WWII too and Korea. I about to check zip lining off my list and sky diving will wait until next spring.

Congrats on the success you and B1 are having on with your R. Happy endings on this site are rare. Hope you two enjoy your 30th next year and looking forward to hearing about it.


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## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Being adventurous and trying new things is all well and good but I prefer to keep my feet on the ground thank you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


COME ON, DO IT!!! What are you afraid off. Zip lining and skydiving will be fun.


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> COME ON, DO IT!!! What are you afraid off. Zip lining and skydiving will be fun.


NOPE! Hell no to the zip line and hell F'ing no to skydiving!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> NOPE! Hell no to the zip line and hell F'ing no to skydiving!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know why not. I mean its not like I would sabotage your line/parachute or anything like that. That would be ridiculous.


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## ScubaSteve61

Forever Grateful said:


> It concerns me that you are strategizing how to defeat your wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to, she takes classes on how to defeat me lol!


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I don't know why not. I mean its not like I would sabotage your line/parachute or anything like that. That would be ridiculous.


It's not like I ever stand over you with a butcher knife while you sleep. That would be CRAZY.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

LOL, FG and RTBP, you guys are funny.  No scaring each other!


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## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> LOL, FG and RTBP, you guys are funny.  No scaring each other!


No promises....


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## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> It's not like I ever stand over you with a butcher knife while you sleep. That would be CRAZY.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I ain't scared...:bringiton:


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I ain't scared...:bringiton:


Whatever 

Seriously though I'm really am looking forward to this little get away. We're leaving in about an hour. It takes like 3 1/2 to get there I think.Its going to be so much fun I can't wait. I love you babe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Whatever
> 
> Seriously though I'm really am looking forward to this little get away. We're leaving in about an hour. *It takes like 3 1/2 to get there I think.* Its going to be so much fun I can't wait. I love you babe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How much you willing to bet I can get us there in under 3?


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## soulpotato

I talked to GF about our anniversary today. She decided that she wanted to completely forget our old anniversary and has chosen the day that things completely changed between us (opening the path to R) as our new anniversary. The day that occurred was the day we had our meltdown therapy session, the day everything almost ended, but suddenly began again instead.

I'm glad that we have a new anniversary. The old one would just have ended up being too painful with too many mixed emotions - for both of us. Even looking at my old ring is like that, but I doubt I'll ever be able to get rid of it.


----------



## jupiter13

I am looking at D Day August 28 and our anniversary September 5. Been going over all the stuff from when we first got together and he is not that person I fell in love with. I am very sad tonight and resentful. Went to my IC and she wants to meet with the 2 of us we need to get together some how and hehas to understand how he makes me feel. I really don't need to work on old issues I have worked those out it's all the emotions this D Day brought up and magnified through my past. This is going to take a long time to get through. My dog Rosie is still lost, posted her everywhere and made her a facepage. The house is not a home without her. Very sad tonight.


----------



## Refuse to be played

I got her to do it! FG just went on zip line after me. I talked her up the whole time. She was afraid but she eventually did it, not gonna lie I'm a bit proud of her. I told her that and that I love her. This place is freaking awesome!

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> I talked to GF about our anniversary today. She decided that she wanted to completely forget our old anniversary and has chosen the day that things completely changed between us (opening the path to R) as our new anniversary. The day that occurred was the day we had our meltdown therapy session, the day everything almost ended, but suddenly began again instead.
> 
> I'm glad that we have a new anniversary. The old one would just have ended up being too painful with too many mixed emotions - for both of us. Even looking at my old ring is like that, but I doubt I'll ever be able to get rid of it.


Soul Potato
Glad you and your GF are moving forward and I can understand completely forgetting the old anniversary and starting with the new. *That works for you and your GF so that is what is important.*


We are a bit different. We even got married again after the A in a church, with the limo, expensive dress, big wedding party, reception, live band, etc. That was nice but really we both are more sentimental about the first anniversary when we got married at the Justice Of The peace with less than 12 people in attendance. We have so many good memories of the first 19 years of marriage that we do not want to throw away those good memories because of one year of being twisted.

*Don’t get me wrong we have good memories of the years after the second marriage but we want to keep them both.* 

We have been in successful R for many years so maybe that is a factor.
You are in the very early stages of R so keep doing whatever you have to do to keep moving forward. We are all cheering for you both!!!


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone,
Things are going well here. We are in a good place. We have really reconnected over the holidays. 
Thinking of you all.
Much love,
DG
X


----------



## soulpotato

Thank you, Mr B.  The renewal you and your wife had sounds lovely. I can see why you would want to keep your old anniversary, especially after so many years of celebrating it. I think GF just really wants to make a fresh start in all areas of our lives. It makes me happy to see examples of long-term and flourishing Rs like yours and others on this thread.


----------



## soulpotato

Urk, had a trouble spot with GF tonight. Talk about being blindsided. I don't even know how we got into this conversation, but I mentioned how hurt I had felt by something re: past intimacy issues with GF - I was almost crying, and I know she could hear it in my voice. Instead of responding to that in a caring way, she completely batted my feelings aside and demanded, "Well what about how _I_ felt?"  She then got really defensive and hostile, did reality challenge, communication shutdown, blamed me for talking about a problem issue and asked why I had to repeat things and what I expected her to say to me being sad/upset about our intimacy issues. I mean, it was literally like, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM. I bristled back, and then I realized we were getting into a bad cycle. (I'm so disappointed because we hadn't had any problems for two whole months.) So I told her that we'd found our next therapy topic and that she should attend the next session (week after this one) to discuss our INTIMACY ISSUES since it was apparently that time. She agreed.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Urk, had a trouble spot with GF tonight. Talk about being blindsided. I don't even know how we got into this conversation, but I mentioned how hurt I had felt by something re: past intimacy issues with GF - I was almost crying, and I know she could hear it in my voice. Instead of responding to that in a caring way, she completely batted my feelings aside and demanded, "Well what about how _I_ felt?"  She then got really defensive and hostile, did reality challenge, communication shutdown, blamed me for talking about a problem issue and asked why I had to repeat things and what I expected her to say to me being sad/upset about our intimacy issues. I mean, it was literally like, BOOM-BOOM-BOOM. I bristled back, and then I realized we were getting into a bad cycle. (I'm so disappointed because we hadn't had any problems for two whole months.) So I told her that we'd found our next therapy topic and that she should attend the next session (week after this one) to discuss our INTIMACY ISSUES since it was apparently that time. She agreed.


Thats a good thing Sp.
You both recognized a problem and agreed to work on it.
Thats progess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

CWI is kicking lately with BSs talking about what worthless, characterless, horribly evil people WSs are. I've seen very few BSs who don't jump on this bandwagon in some thread or another, even if they didn't voice such sentiments in other threads. If most really feel that way, then why do BSs ever want to reconcile at all? I mean, if kids and such aren't involved. I don't get it.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I got her to do it! FG just went on zip line after me. I talked her up the whole time. She was afraid but she eventually did it, not gonna lie I'm a bit proud of her. I told her that and that I love her. This place is freaking awesome!
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using Android_


We just got back home an hour ago. Was a nice little mini-vacation. RTBP was able to talk me into doing it. He went first and said he would be on the other side waiting for me and cheering me on. I was so scared I was about to cry but I did it anyway. When I made it and got unhooked he hugged and kissed me and told me he loved me and that he was proud of me. Usually when he says he loves me it is only in response to me saying it and he never goes in for a kiss himself unless we're having sex. This was the first time he did both in so long. I honestly don't remember the last time I was that happy and felt that good about myself.

And yes...that place was freaking awesome.


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> CWI is kicking lately with BSs talking about what worthless, characterless, horribly evil people WSs are. I've seen very few BSs who don't jump on this bandwagon in some thread or another, even if they didn't voice such sentiments in other threads. If most really feel that way, then why do BSs ever want to reconcile at all? I mean, if kids and such aren't involved. I don't get it.


Yeah I know. Makes me want stay in here where its safe.  I was under the impression that those that are the most vocal were the ones that chose to D. I don't see how someone can say all that about WS and then take one back. :scratchhead:

Yeh my 30th post. Officially a 'member' now. :smthumbup:


----------



## Forever Grateful

RTBP drove back home and then went to our neighbors to get Ares and Athena back. He is in the shower getting ready for bed. He starts class tomorrow morning. I'm going to get up early and make him breakfast haven't done that in awhile. Going to start making it a habit to visit him during his breaks. NOT out of insecurity but because I love how we once again spend most of our time together and do things. I really missed this.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



jupiter13 said:


> I am looking at D Day August 28 and our anniversary September 5. Been going over all the stuff from when we first got together and he is not that person I fell in love with. I am very sad tonight and resentful. Went to my IC and she wants to meet with the 2 of us we need to get together some how and hehas to understand how he makes me feel. I really don't need to work on old issues I have worked those out it's all the emotions this D Day brought up and magnified through my past. This is going to take a long time to get through. My dog Rosie is still lost, posted her everywhere and made her a facepage. The house is not a home without her. Very sad tonight.


You are under a lot off stress right now. Just take it slow and see how things develop. Try to do something for yourself that you enjoy to take your mind off things. Sometimes a different perspective, even if it's only for a day or a few hours, helps a lot.


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Yeah I know. Makes me want stay in here where its safe.


No kidding!



Forever Grateful said:


> I was under the impression that those that are the most vocal were the ones that chose to D. I don't see how someone can say all that about WS and then take one back. :scratchhead:


My thoughts, too, but that's not always the case. (THE most vocal ones are usually for D, yes, but...)



Forever Grateful said:


> Yeh my 30th post. Officially a 'member' now. :smthumbup:


Congratulations!


----------



## Decorum

EI,
Saw your new avatar, made me smile!


----------



## Forever Grateful

Things are going well for now. RTBP mentioned how we were undecided about staying here or moving to another city that offered me a open position. After a long talk we've decided to stay here in Chicago. With that said RTBP will now resume his project of turning half our basement into a home gym. Between school, his muay thai, and that he'll be very busy. Which leaves a lot of free time on my hands so I finding ways to keep me busy during the day. I go now plan on going to the gym in the morning and then visit RTBP at campus for his 90 min break in between classes. After that I'll run whatever errands that need to be done and keep up with our pups. I'm gonna spend more time here TAM and reading the recommended books and whatever I need to do to keep our R going. Also to prevent RTBP from potentially triggering I've decided not to post any threads about the abortion here but I have joined a couple of online support groups. I know its a touchy subject and I don't want to offend anyone here. I'm also picking up the slack with the chores around the house and cooking. Housekeeping was never a strong point for me but he has enough on his plate.

Not everything thing I'm doing has been constructive though. Netflix and Xbox have been my best friends lately. Oher than RTBP of course. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> Things are going well for now. RTBP mentioned how we were undecided about staying here or moving to another city that offered me a open position. After a long talk we've decided to stay here in Chicago. With that said RTBP will now resume his project of turning half our basement into a home gym. Between school, his muay thai, and that he'll be very busy. Which leaves a lot of free time on my hands so I finding ways to keep me busy during the day. I go now plan on going to the gym in the morning and then visit RTBP at campus for his 90 min break in between classes. After that I'll run whatever errands that need to be done and keep up with our pups. I'm gonna spend more time here TAM and reading the recommended books and whatever I need to do to keep our R going. Also to prevent RTBP from potentially triggering I've decided not to post any threads about the abortion here but I have joined a couple of online support groups. I know its a touchy subject and I don't want to offend anyone here. I'm also picking up the slack with the chores around the house and cooking. Housekeeping was never a strong point for me but he has enough on his plate.
> 
> Not everything thing I'm doing has been constructive though. Netflix and Xbox have been my best friends lately. Oher than RTBP of course.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Immersing yourself in books in order to continue the process of growth and learning is great and I recommend it. But make sure you're in the right frame of mind. When you read about adultery and betrayal remember that all that is in the past and the future is bright and positive. Don't let yourself sink into a depression over what has transpired. Know that you are beyond and above that now and with everything you read you are insulating yourself from further problems. And don't confine yourself to books on infidelity alone. There are also incredibly helpful books on all aspects of relationships and life in general. Remember if you're not learning you're burning. And if you're not growing you're slowing.


----------



## soulpotato

FG, everyone needs a break sometimes! I can only read self-help books for so long before I go nuts. What do you play on xbox?


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Things are going well for now. RTBP mentioned how we were undecided about staying here or moving to another city that offered me a open position. After a long talk we've decided to stay here in Chicago. With that said RTBP will now resume his project of turning half our basement into a home gym. Between school, his muay thai, and that he'll be very busy. Which leaves a lot of free time on my hands so I finding ways to keep me busy during the day. I go now plan on going to the gym in the morning and then visit RTBP at campus for his 90 min break in between classes. After that I'll run whatever errands that need to be done and keep up with our pups. I'm gonna spend more time here TAM and reading the recommended books and whatever I need to do to keep our R going. Also to prevent RTBP from potentially triggering I've decided not to post any threads about the abortion here but I have joined a couple of online support groups. I know its a touchy subject and I don't want to offend anyone here. I'm also picking up the slack with the chores around the house and cooking. Housekeeping was never a strong point for me but he has enough on his plate.
> 
> Not everything thing I'm doing has been constructive though. Netflix and Xbox have been my best friends lately. Oher than RTBP of course.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great to hear you sound motivated and positive FG,good stuff.
Learn all you can,support him,show him lots of love and be there for him always.
CSS did all this and more,its still strange to me that I need her even though she betrayed me.
Its kinda like the deaths of those close to me,CSS was there for me and
really helped me through so much pain,she was my crutch and comfort.
Does that make sense?
Chicago? We're in NW Indiana, I work at a mill in the Hegewicsh part of town by the Ford plant.
You know this means you guys MUST become Bears fans now right?
Rightttt????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> Immersing yourself in books in order to continue the process of growth and learning is great and I recommend it. But make sure you're in the right frame of mind. When you read about adultery and betrayal remember that all that is in the past and the future is bright and positive. Don't let yourself sink into a depression over what has transpired. Know that you are beyond and above that now and with everything you read you are insulating yourself from further problems. And don't confine yourself to books on infidelity alone. There are also incredibly helpful books on all aspects of relationships and life in general. Remember if you're not learning you're burning. And if you're not growing you're slowing.


I know what you mean. I try to look forward to the future as much as I can. I usually stop for a bit when reading gets depressing. Our quality time together really does wonders. Apparently it is my primary love language. And I downloaded a lot of different books as well. Acouple of ccooking books, I'm only good at what my mom taught me to cook which is mostly Italian food. Another book I got is sort of um...on the kama sutra.  Also reading RTBP's post I when a head and got him a surprise present that should get here next week. I know things can't go back to the way they were so I'm trying to make them better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> FG, everyone needs a break sometimes! I can only read self-help books for so long before I go nuts. What do you play on xbox?


Didn't mean to make it sound as if that's ALL I do. Netflix has been a godsend and Acher is my current fascination. Video game wise I mostly play RPGs. Elder Scrolls and anything Bioware. Occasionally I'll play a shooter with RTBP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Great to hear you sound motivated and positive FG,good stuff.
> Learn all you can,support him,show him lots of love and be there for him always.
> CSS did all this and more,its still strange to me that I need her even though she betrayed me.
> Its kinda like the deaths of those close to me,CSS was there for me and
> really helped me through so much pain,she was my crutch and comfort.
> Does that make sense?
> Chicago? We're in NW Indiana, I work at a mill in the Hegewicsh part of town by the Ford plant.
> You know this means you guys MUST become Bears fans now right?
> Rightttt????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not too big a football fan so sure Bears are now my favorite team. 

As for RTBP he said Chicago is his new adopted hometown and that includes the Bears as well. I think he knows the fight song already I'll ask him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Didn't mean to make it sound as if that's ALL I do. Netflix has been a godsend and Acher is my current fascination. Video game wise I mostly play RPGs. Elder Scrolls and anything Bioware. Occasionally I'll play a shooter with RTBP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not what I thought at all.  I love my Netflix and game systems, but I wish I had more time for them. I LOVE RPGs, so glad to hear you say that! RPGs need people to love them, too! I recently played The Last Story and Little King Story (both Wii games, damn that stupid nunchuk thing, it is just wrong to have two controllers that must be used cooperatively, WHY). I haven't played Elder Scrolls. Speaking of Bioware, I have got to get back to playing Dragon Age!


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Great to hear you sound motivated and positive FG,good stuff.
> Learn all you can,support him,show him lots of love and be there for him always.
> CSS did all this and more,its still strange to me that I need her even though she betrayed me.
> Its kinda like the deaths of those close to me,CSS was there for me and
> really helped me through so much pain,she was my crutch and comfort.
> Does that make sense?
> Chicago? We're in NW Indiana, I work at a mill in the Hegewicsh part of town by the Ford plant.
> You know this means you guys MUST become Bears fans now right?
> Rightttt????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Forever Grateful said:


> I'm not too big a football fan so sure Bears are now my favorite team.
> 
> As for RTBP he said Chicago is his new adopted hometown and that includes the Bears as well. I think he knows the fight song already I'll ask him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bear down Chicago Bears, make the play clear the way to victory.
Bear down Chicago Bears, put up a fight with a might so fearlessly.
We'll never forget the way you trilled the nation, with your T-formation.
Bear down Chicago Bears, let them know why you're wearing the crown.
You're the pride and joy of Illinois, Chicago Bears, Bear Down!

I did my homework. :smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I'm not too big a football fan so sure Bears are now my favorite team.
> 
> As for RTBP he said Chicago is his new adopted hometown and that includes the Bears as well. I think he knows the fight song already I'll ask him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent!
Welcome to the Windy City!
Wishing the best for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> Not what I thought at all.  I love my Netflix and game systems, but I wish I had more time for them. I LOVE RPGs, so glad to hear you say that! RPGs need people to love them, too! I recently played The Last Story and Little King Story (both Wii games, damn that stupid nunchuk thing, it is just wrong to have two controllers that must be used cooperatively, WHY). I haven't played Elder Scrolls. Speaking of Bioware, I have got to get back to playing Dragon Age!


Personally I'm more of a CoD, Halo, Gears, Madden and NBA 2K kind of a guy but I like RPGs too. Try the Witcher 2 and Skyrim, they're both awesome. And beware of Dragon Age, we both liked the first one but I think the second one sucked. FG thought it was ok though. If you have a PS3 try a JRPG called Ni No Kuni its pretty cool.

Wow we just geeked up this thread huh? :rofl:


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Great to hear you sound motivated and positive FG,good stuff.
> Learn all you can,support him,show him lots of love and be there for him always.
> CSS did all this and more,its still strange to me that* I need her even though she betrayed me.*
> Its kinda like the deaths of those close to me,CSS was there for me and
> really helped me through so much pain,she was my crutch and comfort.
> Does that make sense?
> Chicago? We're in NW Indiana, I work at a mill in the Hegewicsh part of town by the Ford plant.
> You know this means you guys MUST become Bears fans now right?
> Rightttt????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Been there, Calvin. It's called love!:smthumbup:


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> *Another book I got is sort of um...on the kama sutra.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait.....you got what now??? 



Forever Grateful said:


> *Also reading RTBP's post I when a head and got him a surprise present that should get here next week.* _Posted via Mobile Device_


I could find out what you got but I'm not going to. Gonna let it rock and let the suspense build.


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Been there, Calvin. It's called love!:smthumbup:


Dig it,I'm really starting to believe love conquers all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Personally I'm more of a CoD, Halo, Gears, Madden and NBA 2K kind of a guy but I like RPGs too. Try the Witcher 2 and Skyrim, they're both awesome. And beware of Dragon Age, we both liked the first one but I think the second one sucked. FG thought it was ok though. If you have a PS3 try a JRPG called Ni No Kuni its pretty cool.
> 
> Wow we just geeked up this thread huh? :rofl:


Dragon Age II isn't that bad. And yeah we did kind of nerd up the thread lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Wait.....you got what now???
> 
> 
> 
> I could find out what you got but I'm not going to. Gonna let it rock and let the suspense build.


Wait and see!  
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> Personally I'm more of a CoD, Halo, Gears, Madden and NBA 2K kind of a guy but I like RPGs too. Try the Witcher 2 and Skyrim, they're both awesome. And beware of Dragon Age, we both liked the first one but I think the second one sucked. FG thought it was ok though. If you have a PS3 try a JRPG called Ni No Kuni its pretty cool.
> 
> Wow we just geeked up this thread huh? :rofl:


Uh huh, action-packed kind of guy! Okay, I will definitely keep an eye out for those. Hey, I've been thinking of getting a PS3 just to play the fascinating-looking RPGs out for it, and that one you mention was one of them! Dammit, LOL. I already have four (game systems, not counting my DS)...I guess I could replace the PS2 with the 3 someday.  I have the second Dragon Age game, too. I will consider myself warned!

Hey, every thread needs a dash of geek thrown in! I love to geek out! :smthumbup:


----------



## EI

Forever Grateful said:


> Dragon Age II isn't that bad. And yeah we did kind of nerd up the thread lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, if you've read this whole thread, you'll see that "nerding it up" should be the least of your concerns.....  We've covered a rather wide range of topics on the "R" thread. 

Carry on...........


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Wait and see!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope some of what you guys have going on rubs off on me and GF somehow!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> Dragon Age II isn't that bad. And yeah we did kind of nerd up the thread lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That's ok. I believe there was a WoW discussion not too long ago.

Lok'tar!


----------



## EI

Decorum said:


> EI,
> Saw your new avatar, made me smile!


Thank you, Decorum. That's our rotten little brown eyed, red headed grandson, Brody. He'll be 2 on September 11th. His birth gave that date a whole new meaning for "our family." Tangible proof that something really horrible can be overshadowed by something more beautiful! Not erased, not forgotten, but overshadowed. 

That picture was taken last week at the Kentucky State Fair. Brody is fearless on the "kiddie" rides, just like our little girl, his mommy, used to be.


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> I hope some of what you guys have going on rubs off on me and GF somehow!


Check your PMs 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Uh huh, action-packed kind of guy! Okay, I will definitely keep an eye out for those. Hey, I've been thinking of getting a PS3 just to play the fascinating-looking RPGs out for it, and that one you mention was one of them! Dammit, LOL. I already have four (game systems, not counting my DS)...I guess I could replace the PS2 with the 3 someday.  I have the second Dragon Age game, too. I will consider myself warned!
> 
> Hey, every thread needs a dash of geek thrown in! I love to geek out! :smthumbup:


Seriously DAII isn't that bad. A bit lazy on the environments and enemies and a couple of other things but it is still an ok game.

And I love to geek out too! One thing me and RTBP always wanted to do was go to the San Diego Comic-Con.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Seriously DAII isn't that bad. A bit lazy on the environments and enemies and a couple of other things but it is still an ok game.
> 
> And I love to geek out too! One thing me and RTBP always wanted to do was go to the San Diego Comic-Con.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure I will still find it fun to play! And sometimes things like that can actually become part of the entertainment. Every time I watch GF play Two Worlds, I laugh until my sides hurt.  

Ohhh, have you guys not been to any cons?  Go, go now!


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> I'm sure I will still find it fun to play! And sometimes things like that can actually become part of the entertainment. Every time I watch GF play Two Worlds, I laugh until my sides hurt.
> 
> Ohhh, have you guys not been to any cons?  Go, go now!


RTBP went to the NY Comic-Con a few years back. I couldn't go. I had work. 

We have gone to the Chicago Comic and Entertainment Expo back in 2011. Not the same but it was still pretty awesome. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

It is sad how much I struggle when GF is unhappy because of me. That is, when I'm fully present and open to her, as I am now (I wasn't before). These feelings are maddening and the urge to run away from them or bury them in distraction is so strong. They're familiar feelings - I've let them dictate my actions my entire life through one situation or another. Since I care about GF so much, the pain and urge to escape is magnified. This is the first time I've ever been without any backup plans. I find it terrifying. This destructive behavior has been with me for a long time, only I never really noticed it or perceived it as such until GF because it seemed so normal and reasonable to me. 

Next week's therapy appointment seems like it's years away.


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> It is sad how much I struggle when GF is unhappy because of me. That is, when I'm fully present and open to her, as I am now (I wasn't before). These feelings are maddening and the urge to run away from them or bury them in distraction is so strong. They're familiar feelings - I've let them dictate my actions my entire life through one situation or another. Since I care about GF so much, the pain and urge to escape is magnified. This is the first time I've ever been without any backup plans. I find it terrifying. This destructive behavior has been with me for a long time, only I never really noticed it or perceived it as such until GF because it seemed so normal and reasonable to me.
> 
> Next week's therapy appointment seems like it's years away.


I know how you feel. I've always been the type to avoid my problems and try to just forget them. That almost cost me everything. I know it's can be terrifying to fight those feelings. Stand tall, I know I can make it out of this a better person and so can you!

Cyber-hug!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> It is sad how much I struggle when GF is unhappy because of me. That is, when I'm fully present and open to her, as I am now (I wasn't before). These feelings are maddening and the urge to run away from them or bury them in distraction is so strong. They're familiar feelings - I've let them dictate my actions my entire life through one situation or another. Since I care about GF so much, the pain and urge to escape is magnified. This is the first time I've ever been without any backup plans. I find it terrifying. This destructive behavior has been with me for a long time, only I never really noticed it or perceived it as such until GF because it seemed so normal and reasonable to me.
> 
> Next week's therapy appointment seems like it's years away.


Sounds like CSS sometimes. 
I think its a normal feelng on your part and GF.
Both of you just try to ride it out,it passes even if it seems like it wont.
Its a long journey,one step at a time Sp,before you know it you go yards them miles.
Patience....very important,we all lose it sometimes but
You'll both get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

OK so I went a little out of norm. I hired to Animal Communicators. The one yesterday said she didn't know if Rosie was still alive or just not awake. She has gotten into something toxic. Gave us all kinds of clues to where she might be and the areas to look. Found nothing but we live in the country it's a needle in a hay stack. Today the new physic says she is alive at least she is getting a heart beat. And puts her further away than the 5 miles sh would normally go. It would figure if she hooked up with the other river and followed that one thinking she headed going home. WE are not functioning well at all and most the time we are just sick in heart and spirit. At least today we have good thoughts. We have not given up hope but are completely worn out from hunting around the farm lands, corn fields and the river. H thinks I am off my rocker but it was a last resort. A friend came over and listened to the taped session and gave us new ideas that we hadn't thought about before. So off again to this other area to put up flyers and call out her name. This is at least keeping me from triggering about things in my life so anything to get through these next few days and then our anniversary is next month the day before OW birthday. Think I should send a card? LOL not!


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## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> I know how you feel. I've always been the type to avoid my problems and try to just forget them. That almost cost me everything. I know it's can be terrifying to fight those feelings. Stand tall, I know I can make it out of this a better person and so can you!
> 
> Cyber-hug!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, FG. So true. Trying to forget what upsets you perhaps makes it so that you don't remember what makes you happy, either? I don't know. And it seems like what you medicate yourself with to forget just ends up poisoning you and making you sicker. Thank you for the encouragement. (When I'm feeling like this, I sometimes start thinking I'm just bad.) You are such a fighter. 

(((hug)))


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## soulpotato

calvin said:


> Sounds like CSS sometimes.
> I think its a normal feelng on your part and GF.
> Both of you just try to ride it out,it passes even if it seems like it wont.
> Its a long journey,one step at a time Sp,before you know it you go yards them miles.
> Patience....very important,we all lose it sometimes but
> You'll both get there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Calvin. I am working on the patience and trying to stay mindful and vigilant against any of my harmful patterns even during the good, calm times (needs to be especially during those times, really, because of the anxiety I have towards happiness and good things). Tough when something comes out of left field and surprises me! I'm super-sensitive, and everything with her seems to get to me. It's that damned love stuff, lol.


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Thanks, Calvin. I am working on the patience and trying to stay mindful and vigilant against any of my harmful patterns even during the good, calm times (needs to be especially during those times, really, because of the anxiety I have towards happiness and good things). Tough when something comes out of left field and surprises me! I'm super-sensitive, and everything with her seems to get to me. It's that damned love stuff, lol.


Life throws us a lot of curve balls.Sometimes we knock a couple
out of the park.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

jupiter13 said:


> OK so I went a little out of norm. I hired to Animal Communicators. The one yesterday said she didn't know if Rosie was still alive or just not awake. She has gotten into something toxic. Gave us all kinds of clues to where she might be and the areas to look. Found nothing but we live in the country it's a needle in a hay stack. Today the new physic says she is alive at least she is getting a heart beat. And puts her further away than the 5 miles sh would normally go. It would figure if she hooked up with the other river and followed that one thinking she headed going home. WE are not functioning well at all and most the time we are just sick in heart and spirit. At least today we have good thoughts. We have not given up hope but are completely worn out from hunting around the farm lands, corn fields and the river. H thinks I am off my rocker but it was a last resort. A friend came over and listened to the taped session and gave us new ideas that we hadn't thought about before. So off again to this other area to put up flyers and call out her name. This is at least keeping me from triggering about things in my life so anything to get through these next few days and then our anniversary is next month the day before OW birthday. Think I should send a card? LOL not!



jupiter,

Being an animal lover, myself, I just want you to know that my heart really goes out to you. I'm praying that your Rosie comes home safe. I only wish I could offer you more than words. If I lived near you I would help you look for her. I'm so sorry.


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## EI

soulpotato said:


> Thanks, FG. So true. Trying to forget what upsets you perhaps makes it so that you don't remember what makes you happy, either? I don't know. And it seems like what you medicate yourself with to forget just ends up poisoning you and making you sicker. Thank you for the encouragement. (When I'm feeling like this, I sometimes start thinking I'm just bad.) You are such a fighter.
> 
> (((hug)))


You're not bad, sp, you have a very kind and generous heart. You remind me a bit of myself. I suspect that you are your own worst enemy. You said something in an earlier post about having feelings of wanting to "run away," or something to that effect, during stressful times. Raising five children and taking care of my parents for all of those years made "running away" a luxury that I could never afford. Now that mom and dad are gone and the kids are grown, I've come to realize that the only person who I ever really wanted to run away from was staring back at me every time I looked into the mirror. 

I'm not sure if there's anything in there to help you, but I do think I understand how you feel. Please give yourself some credit, you're working really hard at this. It counts. You count.


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## CantSitStill

Jupiter oh I do understand your distress. My dog went missing just a few hours and I was flipping out! I hope you find her...soulpotato you sound a lot like me. Hang in there because this too shall pass. We have good days and bad days and yes it usually depends on how our BS is feeling. It's hard not too feel crappy when they aren't happy. Yes it is unhealthy and I know that but my anxiety always takes over....hugs to both soulpotato and jupider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

E1 and CSS thank you I know you would be out here with me searching. I think most of us who feel very deeply about things who are extremely sensitive relate to our animals the most. For me my animals have been the second family I depended on for "yes Bfree" "unconditional Love." Everyone should have it when growing up as children but there are whose of us who have never experienced that from human contact. 

I have been seeing a lot of us seem to think/feel that our behavior is who we are. As a person that has lots of problems I am learning to separate the two. I/you are not a "bad person" for having "bad behavior" but that is what I hear over and over here on TAM and my own WH. People says "I am a bad person," "I am not good enough," wow my own words come back to kick my butt. :banghead:

How a WS feels and express remorse is also clouded when their concept of them "self" as being an unworthy rotten person, believing that it is the self that is no good. When they can see that their behavior was a personal choice and can really empathize the hurt they have inflected then they will grow. 

I remember hearing over and over that children are born with the "devil in them and you have to beat that devil out." I'm sure that in many ways this is not taken literally but to a child that is just what they would hear. My grandmother always said I would be dead by the time I was 20. As a child I didn't get the concept that I was as glumsiy child always stubbing my toe so I believed her. I think a lot of us here have these same concepts that have shaped how we feel about our self boundaries and expectations of those around us. 

Oh well my 2 cents for today, I'm off to search new lands and I see my old fishing hole is down in the middle of the new search area. So have a good day all.:biggrinangelA:


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## bfree

jupiter13 said:


> E1 and CSS thank you I know you would be out here with me searching. I think most of us who feel very deeply about things who are extremely sensitive relate to our animals the most. For me my animals have been the second family I depended on for "yes Bfree" "unconditional Love." Everyone should have it when growing up as children but there are whose of us who have never experienced that from human contact.
> 
> I have been seeing a lot of us seem to think/feel that our behavior is who we are. As a person that has lots of problems I am learning to separate the two. I/you are not a "bad person" for having "bad behavior" but that is what I hear over and over here on TAM and my own WH. People says "I am a bad person," "I am not good enough," wow my own words come back to kick my butt. :banghead:
> 
> How a WS feels and express remorse is also clouded when their concept of them "self" as being an unworthy rotten person, believing that it is the self that is no good. When they can see that their behavior was a personal choice and can really empathize the hurt they have inflected then they will grow.
> 
> I remember hearing over and over that children are born with the "devil in them and you have to beat that devil out." I'm sure that in many ways this is not taken literally but to a child that is just what they would hear. My grandmother always said I would be dead by the time I was 20. As a child I didn't get the concept that I was as glumsiy child always stubbing my toe so I believed her. I think a lot of us here have these same concepts that have shaped how we feel about our self boundaries and expectations of those around us.
> 
> Oh well my 2 cents for today, I'm off to search new lands and I see my old fishing hole is down in the middle of the new search area. So have a good day all.:biggrinangelA:


You're right. Our pets do offer us unconditional love. I am an animal lover as well. I'm praying that you find your baby.


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## calmwinds

Ever have a really GREAT day with your FWS, then the next day it seems the bottom falls out and you get all triggery and twitchy? Such an awesome day yesterday and then this morning my mom mentions that my SIL (former POSOW friend, not now) made my MIL a FB page and my H gets upset that i am still FB friends with his sister (he and his sister don't speak since a falling out last year after all this went down). I shut down my FB account and he says I'm taking what he said too far. I told him I didn't want FB to cause any friction between us so I shut it down. He doesn't have FB anymore after his A. This is so ridiculous! It's making me trigger so hard even though I know it's BEEN over and there is NC. 
He thinks my mood is affected by things I read on FB. The only thing I can think of that he's seeing is this last week I've been wondering if he remembers POSOW's birthday is coming up and how he's going to be on that day. He has a terrible time with birthdays (anyone's birthday, kids included). I haven't mentioned it because I want to wait and see. 
I had a total stupid moment when, after he didn't answer my call or reply to my last text, I texted him "do you love me?" (yes, I know I'm not supposed to do that), and he texted me back "I can't believe you even have to ask me that, evidently I haven't convinced you"...
UGH! Why does this happen?


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## CantSitStill

It happens calvin will go from feeling on top of the world to suddenly a little thing the next day that he sees on TAM or well yesterday it actually was facebook that triggered him. I can see how it can happen. Anytime at any moment you may be hit with a trigger when you don't expect it. It has to be so hard for BS'. I wish I could stop it but I can't. I can be patient and reassure him even when he doesn't wanna talk to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calmwinds

It's just so hard when He's the one who caused my trigger and he's upset. He's usually so good about being supportive and stepping up when stuff happens. 
He has been in a lot of physical pain lately after another failed surgery, and a lot of my triggers happen when he is in pain because he gets quiet (the way he seemed to ignore me when he was having his A) but we went to the doctor yesterday and he got new medicine and we had such a great day after that, and an even better evening:ezpi_wink1:
Now this.


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## soulpotato

Jupiter, isn't that the truth (about animals and unconditional love). I relate to animals more than I do people, and I love them way more than I would most humans. I have a special place in my heart for them. I hope you find your sweetie. 

CSS, we've certainly got some things in common, don't we? Thank you for your kind words. I'm not sure I'm ever going to register as "healthy" with most people once they get close enough, but I'll do my best to move into the neighborhood of healthy!


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## soulpotato

EI said:


> You're not bad, sp, you have a very kind and generous heart. You remind me a bit of myself. I suspect that you are your own worst enemy. You said something in an earlier post about having feelings of wanting to "run away," or something to that effect, during stressful times. Raising five children and taking care of my parents for all of those years made "running away" a luxury that I could never afford. Now that mom and dad are gone and the kids are grown, I've come to realize that the only person who I ever really wanted to run away from was staring back at me every time I looked into the mirror.


Thank you on both counts. I am definitely my own worst enemy, but I can't seem to help it. I have no idea when that happened, but it's almost like there's another me in here that wants to kill, well, "me" - the me that you all know. I feel compelled to destroy myself in a thousand ways, and it's very hard to be the traffic controller and stop them when they try to get past me. I mean, first I have to notice them, and that's challenging when they all look normal and feel good to me. Destroying myself feels good and natural to me. It's the healthy, wholesome things that scare me. I've been talking to GF more and telling her about them.

I don't run away by completely withdrawing from people or situations a lot of the time - like, I do what needs to be done, so I don't physically or actually run away, but I do destructive things to separate in some way. In daily life, I'm a very responsible and capable person, but inside and privately, ehh...well, I really struggle. But you are right - it's myself that I really want to run away from. I scare myself. The pieces of me don't fit together right, and they don't match. Cognitive dissonance is something I'm working on...



EI said:


> I'm not sure if there's anything in there to help you, but I do think I understand how you feel. Please give yourself some credit, you're working really hard at this. It counts. You count.


You are always helpful - and kind.  Thank you. Somehow you just know what to say.


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Jupiter, isn't that the truth (about animals and unconditional love). I relate to animals more than I do people, and I love them way more than I would most humans. I have a special place in my heart for them. I hope you find your sweetie.
> 
> CSS, we've certainly got some things in common, don't we? Thank you for your kind words. I'm not sure I'm ever going to register as "healthy" with most people once they get close enough, but I'll do my best to move into the neighborhood of healthy!


I love my fat ass Beagle,she goes camping with us and is pretty
much a big baby.
She's a recue dog my Dad got,we fell in love with her and stronged armed
Him into giving her to us.
Damn dog loves us all no matter what.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

No class today so I stayed up to about 5 am last night drinking on patio in the backyard. Thinking about life and what I talked about in IC. Mostly my trust and intimacy issues that I apparently always kept on the back burner I actually thought it all out. In my life I've had 6 people who I loved completely and would have done anything for. My dad, my mom, baby sister, both my mom's parents, and FG. EVERY relationship with them has been broken to some extent. Dad cheated and manipulated me into helping him cheat on my mom, haven't spoken to him since I was 12. My sister stole a large sum of money from me when she was 14, we only reconnected in the last 5 yrs and it isn't the same. My mom turned her back on me and went along with my step-dad after the roofie incident with FG. My grandmother passed away around that time and my relationship with my grand father deteriorated when he pushed EVERYONE away after her passing. In a way FG was all I had and I was ok with that. Then she went and had an A. With the exception of my grandma everyone I let in has either hurt me or abandoned me. Just realized that last night.

Has me thinking whats the point of opening up again. Definition of insanity...


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## user_zero

Refuse to be played said:


> No class today so I stayed up to about 5 am last night drinking on patio in the backyard. Thinking about life and what I talked about in IC. Mostly my trust and intimacy issues that I apparently always kept on the back burner I actually thought it all out. In my life I've had 6 people who I loved completely and would have done anything for. My dad, my mom, baby sister, both my mom's parents, and FG. EVERY relationship with them has been broken to some extent. Dad cheated and manipulated me into helping him cheat on my mom, haven't spoken to him since I was 12. My sister stole a large sum of money from me when she was 14, we only reconnected in the last 5 yrs and it isn't the same. My mom turned her back on me and went along with my step-dad after the roofie incident with FG. My grandmother passed away around that time and my relationship with my grand father deteriorated when he pushed EVERYONE away after her passing. In a way FG was all I had and I was ok with that. Then she went and had an A. With the exception of my grandma everyone I let in has either hurt me or abandoned me. Just realized that last night.
> 
> Has me thinking whats the point of opening up again. Definition of insanity...


there is an analogy that comes to my mind :
its like tossing the coin. we all know that chances of getting a heads or tails as the result of tossing a coin is 50%. right ?
so someone toss a coin a thousand times and each time he gets heads. now can we say 1001th time is going to be another head by 100%. of course not. the truth is each process of tossing a coin is not dependent on previous tosses. 
and if you wanna understand why each time it came heads you have to analyze each of tosses separately to see what really caused the result , to see how much control you really had. and with that awareness you can answer : "Is it really worth it to toss another time or not?" 

i hope i didn't confused you more


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## jupiter13

I understand the coin toss. I do it all the time and with every toss that comes up heads it seems like that was when I should have run the other way.
RTBP:I agree with you. It's when you are the one effected by everyone Else's actions that tear your world apart why bother? If I were to act out how I felt and had my own behavior problems that effected others like they do me I would be completely abandoned. Why should I put up and survive everyone Else's bad behavior that hurts the heck out of me when I am not entitled to mine? I know it that word "entitled" but still stuffing is not good either, but that is what I do, then don't let anyone in or get close to me again."

Today I have triggered big time. I sent WH several emails after he answered one of mine well he did not answer it. A while back I sent email asking question he sent it back asking for the dates of my last surgery which I answered. That was ten days ago when I said something I went into his email account and found he had deleted it. So I yelled at him. He goes in and sends the email again minus my reply and it is the wrong email completely but that is the one he says it is. I send him email after email letting him have it. I send emails as I like the written answers and sometimes my temper will really get the best of me I mean really bad so talking is not the best form of communication. On the other hand dealing with the lost dog and he is just being as sweet as sugar water to engage me over the dog. I will not back off this. I feel 100% that if he does not share with me the nature of the relationship and what happened and the timing these questions will hunt me forever and all other aspects in our whatever you want to call it will be in question. I do not know how to let go or forgive all the years I have been living a lie and he will not give me answers for. He's all about "I'm a bad person," which tells me he has not learned anything in the last two years going through this. 
Ok I have ranted enough to say the most does anyone know of other threads I can read to help address these issues.
Without my dog I can not forgive him she is the last thing of our life together that I have everything else is gone.


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## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> I understand the coin toss. I do it all the time and with every toss that comes up heads it seems like that was when I should have run the other way.
> RTBP:I agree with you. It's when you are the one effected by everyone Else's actions that tear your world apart why bother? If I were to act out how I felt and had my own behavior problems that effected others like they do me I would be completely abandoned. Why should I put up and survive everyone Else's bad behavior that hurts the heck out of me when I am not entitled to mine? I know it that word "entitled" but still stuffing is not good either, but that is what I do, then don't let anyone in or get close to me again."
> 
> Today I have triggered big time. I sent WH several emails after he answered one of mine well he did not answer it. A while back I sent email asking question he sent it back asking for the dates of my last surgery which I answered. That was ten days ago when I said something I went into his email account and found he had deleted it. So I yelled at him. He goes in and sends the email again minus my reply and it is the wrong email completely but that is the one he says it is. I send him email after email letting him have it. I send emails as I like the written answers and sometimes my temper will really get the best of me I mean really bad so talking is not the best form of communication. On the other hand dealing with the lost dog and he is just being as sweet as sugar water to engage me over the dog. I will not back off this. I feel 100% that if he does not share with me the nature of the relationship and what happened and the timing these questions will hunt me forever and all other aspects in our whatever you want to call it will be in question. I do not know how to let go or forgive all the years I have been living a lie and he will not give me answers for. He's all about "I'm a bad person," which tells me he has not learned anything in the last two years going through this.
> Ok I have ranted enough to say the most does anyone know of other threads I can read to help address these issues.
> Without my dog I can not forgive him she is the last thing of our life together that I have everything else is gone.


Hope you find your dog soon,I love my mutt.
They relieve stress,try to cheer you up when your down and are loyal as hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

thanks calvin I am not in a good place these days


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## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> thanks calvin I am not in a good place these days


Hang in there,it will get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## user_zero

> so I don't physically or actually run away, but I do destructive things to separate in some way. In daily life, I'm a very responsible and capable person, but inside and privately, ehh...well, I really struggle. But you are right - it's myself that I really want to run away from. I scare myself. The pieces of me don't fit together right, and they don't match. Cognitive dissonance is something I'm working on...


is it safe to say that you on some level believe that if you do the right constructive thing , everybody expectation especially your own expectation of your self would rise to a higher level? and it would be harder for you to achieve that?
are you afraid of your success and growth? are you afraid to want more ? to have more?

so you do the destructive things to undermine your own personal growth .

*PM: from your posts I can say that you deserve redemption , success , growth.
you are breathing. you are still alive, dude. after all these mistakes God still believes in you. he believes you have the potential to achieve more , to be a better human being. does this have not any meaning to you?*


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## user_zero

Soulpotato , Jupiter13

something that really cheers me up when I'm down is going to the park and watch little kid's play. they are amazing : full life , full of hope. I could never get tired of that.


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## user_zero

Soulpotato , Jupiter13

something that really cheers me up when I'm down is going to the park and watch little kid's play. they are amazing : full life , full of hope. I could never get tired of that.


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## Forever Grateful

Today really sucked. I hate days like this. RTBP has been down all day and I really don't know what to do or say. When he asked me why should he bother I don't know how to respond. What could I say other than how sorry I am and that I love him and that I swear on my life that nothing like this will ever happen again. I know he is sick of hearing it in conversations like this. We were going to go out tonight but he understandably wants to stay home now and wants to be left alone. So here I am sitting upstairs in our bedroom respecting his wishes and all I want to do is go downstairs and be with him. I hate this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## user_zero

Forever Grateful said:


> Today really sucked. I hate days like this. RTBP has been down all day and I really don't know what to do or say. When he asked me why should he bother I don't know how to respond. What could I say other than how sorry I am and that I love him and that I swear on my life that nothing like this will ever happen again. I know he is sick of hearing it in conversations like this. We were going to go out tonight but he understandably wants to stay home now and wants to be left alone. So here I am sitting upstairs in our bedroom respecting his wishes and all I want to do is go downstairs and be with him. I hate this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hang in there .... there are going to be LOTS OF UP and DOWNs and I mean really lots of those ..... with time the ups gonna be more and downs gonna be less.you just months past the Dday it takes years to fully heal.
I know you wanna take away the pain ... you wanna see him happy but you gotta realize there is no shortcuts in reconciliation process. you gotta go at the right pace. if you go too slow or too fast your gonna lose something along the line. this is the natural process. do the best you can. be patient. be a good listener. show him your love sincerely and wholeheartedly. you can get through this.


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## jupiter13

soulpotato, that would make things worst for me as my three grand kids were living with us and their father came in and took them. I have not seem my babies since April and I miss them so very much. As I have said before it has been one thing after another since dday and I can't get out of the grief cycle. I am trying to find peace in the other dogs, Nuddy who just came to us is only one and someone throw him out of the car when they drove by as many of the cats and dogs that end up here are. Mending his ego and training is needed now not when I get around to it. Responsibilities before all else. If you know what I mean. I am lucky to have here to vent and get support as I have it no where else. Thank you all.


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## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> Today really sucked. I hate days like this. RTBP has been down all day and I really don't know what to do or say. When he asked me why should he bother I don't know how to respond. What could I say other than how sorry I am and that I love him and that I swear on my life that nothing like this will ever happen again. I know he is sick of hearing it in conversations like this. We were going to go out tonight but he understandably wants to stay home now and wants to be left alone. So here I am sitting upstairs in our bedroom respecting his wishes and all I want to do is go downstairs and be with him. I hate this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG,

He is going to have down days. Probably many down days. Its part of the cycle. But as things progress and get better the down days will become fewer and farther between. As calvin like to say they lose their power. Just be as supportive and loving as you can. Right now RTBP is in the process of evaluating everything in his life. He is going over the movie that has been playing and is trying to see where the plot is leading. He is looking to see whether it is a sad tragic movie where the couple end up alone and divorced or whether the boy reuinites with the girl and they live happily ever after. Make sure you are the girl that he wants to live happily ever after with. Make sure to reassure him that you love him. You have both been through a lot, not just now but for a long time individually too. In time you can both work together to strengthen each other as you rebuild the trust and love in your marriage. Just know that there is a better tomorrow and a better one still after that.


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## CantSitStill

Calvin and I have been thru a lot of bad bad days. I used to sit and feel paralyzed when he got that way. The hardest thing for me was to not let his triggers do that to me. I still go into bed and cry my eyes out. My counselor told me over and over again how I should not worry about those things that I can't control. That is so much easier said than done. He is my life. He is the man I love more than anyone. Freaking out does not help a damn thing tho. It's hard to react any differently. Hope you two keep reading books about marriage. You'll be ok. Believe me,: I said a hundred times. "Oh he really is gonna divorce me now and he really means it this time". I was wrong every time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Thanks user zero and bfree. I know he is gonna have a lot of down days. Its just that he has been doing so well lately. I'm trying to be supportive but it's hard when he doesn't want me around. I just hate seeing him like that but not able to do anything. Like CSS said I just feel so powerless. And I did spend last night crying in bed. He didn't come to bed until very late and got up early this morning avoiding me. He just left for the gym and didn't want me to come. I wish he would let me help him. I don't want to freak out but again I can't help it. I don't think he is thinking about D. He's just so sad and depressed right now, I hate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> Thanks user zero and bfree. I know he is gonna have a lot of down days. Its just that he has been doing so well lately. I'm trying to be supportive but it's hard when he doesn't want me around. I just hate seeing him like that but not able to do anything. Like CSS said I just feel so powerless. And I did spend last night crying in bed. He didn't come to bed until very late and got up early this morning avoiding me. He just left for the gym and didn't want me to come. I wish he would let me help him. I don't want to freak out but again I can't help it. I don't think he is thinking about D. He's just so sad and depressed right now, I hate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you read the stages of grief? The fourth stage is depression. It sounds like RTBP is going through that now. Remember that people go through these stages in different orders. Sometimes you can go through stage 2 and then stage 5. Sometimes you can be feeling stage 3 and 4 together and then back to stage 1 again. Its all subjective and dependent on the person. If he hasn't hit the anger stage hold on to your hat because that can get a little scary. But the one thing to understand is that its all normal and all necessary if you both want to rebuild trust and build a new marriage. Remember that you can't build a new relationship dynamic without allowing the old one to end (die.) Its hard and painful but its important to allow the entire process to occur. There have been many reconciliations where the entire process stalled (i.e. rugswept) and then years later the marriage was over anyway. Just stay positive and supportive as he (and you) ride out the roller coaster. And I know its hard for you because you feel helpless but RTBP feels helpless as well. Try to "feel" his pain (imagine that a close friend or relative has died.) Try to envision what he's going through and it will help you to stay connected even when he is pushing you away.


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Thanks user zero and bfree. I know he is gonna have a lot of down days. Its just that he has been doing so well lately. I'm trying to be supportive but it's hard when he doesn't want me around. I just hate seeing him like that but not able to do anything. Like CSS said I just feel so powerless. And I did spend last night crying in bed. He didn't come to bed until very late and got up early this morning avoiding me. He just left for the gym and didn't want me to come. I wish he would let me help him. I don't want to freak out but again I can't help it. I don't think he is thinking about D. He's just so sad and depressed right now, I hate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just be patient FG,I havent brought up D in awhile and tose thoughts are going away.
I really had to think that over and over and over.
I dont really give CSS the silent treatment but I can be quiet sometimes,I just dont want to say
Something I might regret later.
After a couple hours the bad thoughts dissipate and I feel better.
Nineteen months out and I'm a lot better than I was 4,6, or 8 months ago.
Just give him time and keep telling him you love him.
Most people deserve a second chance and I'd say you one of them,just like CSS deserves this shot also.
Youre both in our thoughts
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> Have you read the stages of grief? The fourth stage is depression. It sounds like RTBP is going through that now. Remember that people go through these stages in different orders. Sometimes you can go through stage 2 and then stage 5. Sometimes you can be feeling stage 3 and 4 together and then back to stage 1 again. Its all subjective and dependent on the person. If he hasn't hit the anger stage hold on to your hat because that can get a little scary. But the one thing to understand is that its all normal and all necessary if you both want to rebuild trust and build a new marriage. Remember that you can't build a new relationship dynamic without allowing the old one to end (die.) Its hard and painful but its important to allow the entire process to occur. There have been many reconciliations where the entire process stalled (i.e. rugswept) and then years later the marriage was over anyway. Just stay positive and supportive as he (and you) ride out the roller coaster. And I know its hard for you because you feel helpless but RTBP feels helpless as well. Try to "feel" his pain (imagine that a close friend or relative has died.) Try to envision what he's going through and it will help you to stay connected even when he is pushing you away.


Thank you bfree. And yes I have read the stages of grief. He is definitely feeling depression. It just surprised me because it came out of nowhere. We had been doing so well earlier this week and all of last week. I'm trying to be positive and supportive but can't when he doesn't want me around. And that always left me feeling confused and helpless. I'm trying to imagine what he is going through and it must be unbearable. That's why I want to go to him so badly but I will give him the space he wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Just be patient FG,I havent brought up D in awhile and tose thoughts are going away.
> I really had to think that over and over and over.
> I dont really give CSS the silent treatment but I can be quiet sometimes,I just dont want to say
> Something I might regret later.
> After a couple hours the bad thoughts dissipate and I feel better.
> Nineteen months out and I'm a lot better than I was 4,6, or 8 months ago.
> Just give him time and keep telling him you love him.
> Most people deserve a second chance and I'd say you one of them,just like CSS deserves this shot also.
> Youre both in our thoughts
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


RTBP is similar to you he doesn't want to say anything overly harsh as well. His low moments can last anywhere from a few hours to a couple of days. He's been like this since yesterday afternoon. I know we're doing very well considering Dday wasn't that far away but I can't say enough how I hate that he gets like this. I don't think I deserve ba second chance but I'm so he decided to give me one. I will not let it go to waste. Thanks calvin. I wish you and CSS all the luck too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Having a *GOOD* weekend with GF.  :smthumbup:


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## soulpotato

Hang in there, FG.  I know it seems distant and hard to imagine at times like these, but I firmly believe that you two will get there. Just watching you together, I feel certain that the hard work you are both doing and the love you both obviously feel for each other will make your R one of the best. ((hugs)) Getting through these tough spots is hell while you're in them, though.


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Having a *GOOD* weekend with GF.  :smthumbup:


Good to hear Sp.
Whole fam is having a great day today and I got a two day weekend!
Time for me and CSS to down to the fest.
Love that girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Hang in there, FG.  I know it seems distant and hard to imagine at times like these, but I firmly believe that you two will get there. Just watching you together, I feel certain that the hard work you are both doing and the love you both obviously feel for each other will make your R one of the best. ((hugs)) Getting through these tough spots is hell while you're in them, though.


Thanks for the support SP. Yeah they are hell. But congrats to you and your GF and enjoy your weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

RTBP got home after being gone all day an hour and a half ago. He brought dinner home for us. I feel a bit guilty, I don't like where he got his food so he made a second stop and got me something. It makes me feel like crap when he's feeling low but still does something nice or considerate for me. We ate but he didn't want to talk much just a lot of one word answers. Now its just a repeat of last night. He's downstairs by himself and I'm up in the bedroom trying to hold it together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all, just checking back in and sharing an update. First, I'm glad to hear things are going well *Calvin & CSS*, and *SoulPotato*. *RTBP and FG*, I wish you both continued healing, especially as you work through these rough early months. *Jupiter13*, I'm so sorry to hear about your sweet Rosie, and I'm sure it feels like just one more weight on the pile. I hope you find her, and that you and your husband can find some renewed sense of progress in your R.

Things have been more even around here, but we still go through some substantial ups and downs, just not as frequently, it seems. Starting school again the past few weeks was a big cause for anxiety for both of us, I think. Matt just didn't really want to go back, and I was dreading how he would feel being in that environment again. It hasn't been all sunshine, but we are coping.

We are just a few weeks away from my due date, and for me anyway, that has been a big source of personal stress. I had hoped for a natural childbirth, but my friend who assisted with the birth of our first son isn't going to be able to help with this one, and I'm not sure I'm strong enough to do it on my own. I've been working with some childbirth hypnosis tracks, and there are some recommendations for a birth partner to assist. I'm sure Matt would help if I asked, but I'm stuck lately in this weird place of not wanting to ask him for fear of being a burden. I know the baby stresses him too, and that he is not in a place where he feels positively about it, so the part of me that is always worst-case scenario planning is attempting to draw up a game plan for what happens if he feels like he just can't be there for the birth, even though I have no reason to believe that would happen. It's my own personal neurosis and I know I need to work on getting through it. I just never want him to feel like he has to do something for me ever again after my selfish behavior in the affair, and the sacrifices he feels he made to help parent our son while I worked.

Combine that with our son starting preschool (the first day was a disaster, we already had to have a meeting with his teacher over how defiant he was, but the past 2 days have been ok); my daycare provider finding a louse on my son's head so I had to sterilize the house, shave his head, and bag up all our pillows and his favorite stuffed toys for two weeks; my closest colleague at work left her job mid-way through the first week due to health issues as she is nearing the end of her 10 year battle with cancer; and my best friend from back home called this morning to tell me she was diagnosed with cancer and has at best 3-4 years. It's been an overwhelming two weeks. 

I get bogged down in attempting to manage our lives and stress, and minimize Matt's exposure to it as much as possible. It's ridiculous, but I'm constantly afraid that any negative experience is going to be what pushes him over the edge into deciding he can't deal with this anymore. So what I do is just attempt to run interference - to make sure our son doesn't "bother" him, to make sure things are organized, planned, prepared for around the house. Certainly, there have been a lot of moments lately where I know life as a part time parent looks pretty desirable compared to our daily struggles. I work so hard each day to try to create an environment that is positive for Matt, and that he would want to be part of, and many days it just spirals out of my control and I don't succeed. And I don't know how I can possibly get through adding another baby to the mix and all the sleeplessness and extra energy that requires.

The time period is rough too. We are in the middle of the anniversary of "affair season" - approximately 1 year ago OM broke NC and a few weeks after that I began seeing/speaking with him regularly again, putting Matt through false R. I know it's on his mind. We've been counseling with Steve Harley since May, and I know it's been useful for me and I think it has for Matt, but one of the results is that he doesn't express his anger to me directly as much any more. Which I suppose is a positive compared to some of our previous interactions, but it is hard for me to get a gauge on how he is doing since he essentially protects me from it. When I do ask, it tends to send him into a depression, and he wishes I hadn't brought it up with him. 

On the flip side, Matt actually agreed to a family trip with my parents, sister, and nephew in January. We are going to take the boys to Disney World for 2 days and then go on a three day Disney cruise to the Bahamas. I've been to DW once and never been on a cruise, so I am really excited to do something new. Plus, I'm hoping this will really be magical for our son - he'll be nearly 4, so I think he'll still kind of "believe" in all the characters and everything. It means so much to me that Matt would consider planning something several months in the future with me and my family. I know he still has many days where he isn't sure working on R is the right choice for him, and I know he doesn't feel love for me after what I've done. I just hope that we can continue to work on taking steps to grow closer, to remember what common interests connected us and to discover new experiences together. I am so grateful for the time he has gifted to me, to attempt to show positive change and growth, and I hope he never has cause to regret that later in life, even if our R ultimately doesn't succeed. I want him to be happy, whatever form that takes. That's the least he deserves. I am doing everything I can each day to try to help him find that happiness with me again, and with our children.

So, that's the update. I'll be back again, I'm sure after the baby has arrived to fill you all in on that new chapter. It will be interesting to finally find out what it is, and meet the wiggly little thing that has made me it's personal punching bag for the last 9 months.


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## happyman64

Good update Mrs M. You and Matt have a lot on your plate but I think the new baby will be a blessing for both of you. If you both allow it, it can signify a fresh start for your family.

My family did the Disney World/Disney cruise a few years ago and it will be awesome for all of you.

Take care of yourself, the kid/s and Matt.

You will succeed. It just takes longer with such a full plate.

And I look forward to hearing about the new baby and the new anniversary you and Matt will love to share together.

HM


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## user_zero

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Hello all, just checking back in and sharing an update. First, I'm glad to hear things are going well *Calvin & CSS*, and *SoulPotato*. *RTBP and FG*, I wish you both continued healing, especially as you work through these rough early months. *Jupiter13*, I'm so sorry to hear about your sweet Rosie, and I'm sure it feels like just one more weight on the pile. I hope you find her, and that you and your husband can find some renewed sense of progress in your R.
> 
> Things have been more even around here, but we still go through some substantial ups and downs, just not as frequently, it seems. Starting school again the past few weeks was a big cause for anxiety for both of us, I think. Matt just didn't really want to go back, and I was dreading how he would feel being in that environment again. It hasn't been all sunshine, but we are coping.
> 
> We are just a few weeks away from my due date, and for me anyway, that has been a big source of personal stress. I had hoped for a natural childbirth, but my friend who assisted with the birth of our first son isn't going to be able to help with this one, and I'm not sure I'm strong enough to do it on my own. I've been working with some childbirth hypnosis tracks, and there are some recommendations for a birth partner to assist. I'm sure Matt would help if I asked, but I'm stuck lately in this weird place of not wanting to ask him for fear of being a burden. I know the baby stresses him too, and that he is not in a place where he feels positively about it, so the part of me that is always worst-case scenario planning is attempting to draw up a game plan for what happens if he feels like he just can't be there for the birth, even though I have no reason to believe that would happen. It's my own personal neurosis and I know I need to work on getting through it. I just never want him to feel like he has to do something for me ever again after my selfish behavior in the affair, and the sacrifices he feels he made to help parent our son while I worked.
> 
> Combine that with our son starting preschool (the first day was a disaster, we already had to have a meeting with his teacher over how defiant he was, but the past 2 days have been ok); my daycare provider finding a louse on my son's head so I had to sterilize the house, shave his head, and bag up all our pillows and his favorite stuffed toys for two weeks; my closest colleague at work left her job mid-way through the first week due to health issues as she is nearing the end of her 10 year battle with cancer; and my best friend from back home called this morning to tell me she was diagnosed with cancer and has at best 3-4 years. It's been an overwhelming two weeks.
> 
> I get bogged down in attempting to manage our lives and stress, and minimize Matt's exposure to it as much as possible. It's ridiculous, but I'm constantly afraid that any negative experience is going to be what pushes him over the edge into deciding he can't deal with this anymore. So what I do is just attempt to run interference - to make sure our son doesn't "bother" him, to make sure things are organized, planned, prepared for around the house. Certainly, there have been a lot of moments lately where I know life as a part time parent looks pretty desirable compared to our daily struggles. I work so hard each day to try to create an environment that is positive for Matt, and that he would want to be part of, and many days it just spirals out of my control and I don't succeed. And I don't know how I can possibly get through adding another baby to the mix and all the sleeplessness and extra energy that requires.
> 
> The time period is rough too. We are in the middle of the anniversary of "affair season" - approximately 1 year ago OM broke NC and a few weeks after that I began seeing/speaking with him regularly again, putting Matt through false R. I know it's on his mind. We've been counseling with Steve Harley since May, and I know it's been useful for me and I think it has for Matt, but one of the results is that he doesn't express his anger to me directly as much any more. Which I suppose is a positive compared to some of our previous interactions, but it is hard for me to get a gauge on how he is doing since he essentially protects me from it. When I do ask, it tends to send him into a depression, and he wishes I hadn't brought it up with him.
> 
> On the flip side, Matt actually agreed to a family trip with my parents, sister, and nephew in January. We are going to take the boys to Disney World for 2 days and then go on a three day Disney cruise to the Bahamas. I've been to DW once and never been on a cruise, so I am really excited to do something new. Plus, I'm hoping this will really be magical for our son - he'll be nearly 4, so I think he'll still kind of "believe" in all the characters and everything. It means so much to me that Matt would consider planning something several months in the future with me and my family. I know he still has many days where he isn't sure working on R is the right choice for him, and I know he doesn't feel love for me after what I've done. I just hope that we can continue to work on taking steps to grow closer, to remember what common interests connected us and to discover new experiences together. I am so grateful for the time he has gifted to me, to attempt to show positive change and growth, and I hope he never has cause to regret that later in life, even if our R ultimately doesn't succeed. I want him to be happy, whatever form that takes. That's the least he deserves. I am doing everything I can each day to try to help him find that happiness with me again, and with our children.
> 
> So, that's the update. I'll be back again, I'm sure after the baby has arrived to fill you all in on that new chapter. It will be interesting to finally find out what it is, and meet the wiggly little thing that has made me it's personal punching bag for the last 9 months.


it seems your doing a lot toward the R. and that's fantastic. i just wanna add that sometimes when we spend our time and energy for other people's (including the family) happiness and we don't get the response we were wishing for , we are going to feel resentful and disappointed toward them and most importantly toward ourselves. this behavior usually seen in 'Nice Guy' personality type. but sometimes I see it FWS. just be careful , be aware of your own expectations and know how much control you really have on the outcome of a situation.

your situation is a little rare. I mean with the OM in your house , your jobs , going back to the same place where affair happened , pregnancy , several Ddays , false reconciliation , ... I believe that 'Phases of R' take a little longer that usual ones.
don't rush. just take one step at a time. you both can do this.

I respect you for trying to do the right thing even when it is easier to just walk away. it takes courage to do that. I pray for you and MrMathias 's happiness. you both deserve it.


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## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> RTBP got home after being gone all day an hour and a half ago. He brought dinner home for us. I feel a bit guilty, I don't like where he got his food so he made a second stop and got me something. It makes me feel like crap when he's feeling low but still does something nice or considerate for me. We ate but he didn't want to talk much just a lot of one word answers. Now its just a repeat of last night. He's downstairs by himself and I'm up in the bedroom trying to hold it together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Keep showing the love FG.Another thing that helped me was CSS saying sometimes how sorry she was.
He has a lot going through his mind right now and it cant be helped much.
Only you can make the hurt less.
Dont give up,be there for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Mrs.M,
Things sound better with you both,I see some positives in your post.
Keep doing what youre doing,your husbands seems to be a strong man and
I bet you will both make it,same with FG.
Its hard being a BS,real hard but our spouses are who can make it better.
We tend to lean on the ones we love most,even if they hurt us.
Dont give up.It gets better,may not seem like it but it does.
I have faith that all the couples here will re-discover one another again.
Just hang on everyone.
I know I am.
Hanging tight to CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

It gets a lot worse before it gets better, hang on tight and get ready for the rollercoaster of emotions from him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Thank you for all the advice and encouragement calvin, bfree, CSS, SP, Mrs M, and user zero it is very appreciated.

Things got a bit better last night. I was staying away like he wanted and he eventually came to bed but stayed on his side with him back to me. I asked if I could hold is hand and he rolled onto his back and let me. After some questioning he opened up a bit. He said he wasn't really angry at me he just wanted to think on things without any outside interference. He was confused, he didn't feel sad really that best he could describe it was defeated. I again told him how sorry I am and that I love him, that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make things right between us. I asked if we could cuddle and he let me. I told him that I love him again and he didn't respond but did kiss my forehead. This morning we talked a bit more and I eventually tried to see if he wanted to be intimate but he declined which is unusual. We just had breakfast and RTBP is now in the backyard playing with the pups so that will cheer him up a little bit. He is still down but at least he is willing to let me keep him company and is willing to spend the day with me. I guess we can go spend the day along the lakeshore and maybe go to Dave and Busters, he loves that place. Things still aren't good but they're getting better and I will not give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Question for BS's - did you deal with much self-anger for "allowing" the affair to happen? For being "gullible" or "cuckolded"? *Please know these are not my terms, nor how I think of ANYONE who has been cheated on. 

If you did face those feelings, how did you come to terms with them? And, if you decided to attempt R, how did you get through feeling like you were "weak" for choosing to stay and work on the relationship?


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## cpacan

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Question for BS's - did you deal with much self-anger for "allowing" the affair to happen? For being "gullible" or "cuckolded"? *Please know these are not my terms, nor how I think of ANYONE who has been cheated on.
> 
> If you did face those feelings, how did you come to terms with them? And, if you decided to attempt R, how did you get through feeling like you were "weak" for choosing to stay and work on the relationship?


Answer from BS 
No self-anger for allowing it - I just felt completely stupid, a moron who couldn't see it happening right in front of me. I've never before or since then felt so stupid. It's a big blow to someone who ususally claims to be fairly intelligent.

I also felt sad when I realized how I, in our younger days, accepted her pushing boundaries, so I wouldn't appear controlling or insecure - also a feeling of being stupid for not recognizing and acting on red flags 20 years ago, when she was primed for having affairs.

Am I feeling weak for trying to rebuild? H*** no! Not a chance. It's way too hard on me. Maybe a bit in the early days upon D-day, when I felt I couldn't live without her and offered R way too soon. But I've changed that, so I am crystal clear now, knowing I will be just fine without her, and ready to drop her at the slightest sight of betrayla or lies. I am even confident that I would survive another affair - I can leave knowing that I tried my best and offered a second chance to a damaged person.

I guess I understand why you ask, and I can tell you that this is definitely not easy, it's the worst thing that have happened to me ever, something I have not been prepared for at all, and something I struggle with on a daily basis.

The only positive outcome I have discovered so far is, that it's been a valuable opportunity to grow and improve myself in so many ways. I just wish the path to this could have been a bit less painfull.

I believe that you're doing your best MrsM, keep on track and know that you did your best to make amends. Every BS would want that if offered (well almost every BS I guess).

Take care.


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## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Question for BS's - did you deal with much self-anger for "allowing" the affair to happen? For being "gullible" or "cuckolded"? *Please know these are not my terms, nor how I think of ANYONE who has been cheated on.
> 
> If you did face those feelings, how did you come to terms with them? And, if you decided to attempt R, how did you get through feeling like you were "weak" for choosing to stay and work on the relationship?


Mrs M,

I absolutely hated myself. I couldn't find one thing about myself that I could say I liked. I was weak. I was unlovable. I wasn't a man. Of course I had help with that last one as that was the last thing my ex wife said to me as we signed the paperwork. After it was all said and done I became severely depressed. I never left my house. After a month or so some friends finally convinced me to go out with them. I got drunk and stayed drunk for several years, got into many barfights which I realize now were actually attempts at killing myself without actually having to do it. I bedded many women but not out of love or even out of a desire for sex. It was out of hate for all females. While all this was going on I thought I was being strong and independent. I thought I was "moving on." I was wrong. Eventually I got help for my drinking, drugs and anger issues. But I still hadn't really "moved on." Not until I realized that I was not to blame. Her cheating had absolutely nothing to do with me. It was her choice. Oh sure I was responsible for my half of our relationship up to that point but I was NOT A CUCKOLD. I did not agree to being betrayed. I did not agree to let her cheat. I did not ask for this.

I've seen a lot and have done even more. Many things I am not proud of and many things I do feel good about. It is not weak to give someone a second chance. It is a gift that can only be given by someone with an extreme amount of courage and love. Had my first wife and I tried to R it would not have worked. Judging by my life right after the divorce I was not a strong man at that point. Certainly not strong enough to try a reconciliation. A second chance after a betrayal can never come from weakness. It wouldn't work.

Too many times strength is associated with a "take no prisoners" attitude. Too many times we think of strength in terms of Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Alexander the Great. In the early to mid 20th century the British Empire was one of the strongest countries on earth. And yet a little man with no army, no navy, no weapons and who espoused a philosophy of non violence beat that mighty empire and freed his country. So was Ghandi weak or stronger than all of them combined?


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## soulpotato

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Question for BS's - did you deal with much self-anger for "allowing" the affair to happen? For being "gullible" or "cuckolded"? *Please know these are not my terms, nor how I think of ANYONE who has been cheated on.
> 
> If you did face those feelings, how did you come to terms with them? And, if you decided to attempt R, how did you get through feeling like you were "weak" for choosing to stay and work on the relationship?


I asked GF these questions.

GF says she was more angry at the situation and frustrated with me. She wasn't angry at herself because she doesn't feel she allowed it. She did get angry and rageful when she felt I was dismissing her concerns and that I was willfully destroying everything without being concerned.

GF feels that in order to R, she sacrificed/destroyed part of herself. But she decided that she would rather live with the pain of what happened over the pain of losing me completely, especially if I was remorseful.


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## happyman64

Forever Grateful said:


> Thank you for all the advice and encouragement calvin, bfree, CSS, SP, Mrs M, and user zero it is very appreciated.
> 
> Things got a bit better last night. I was staying away like he wanted and he eventually came to bed but stayed on his side with him back to me. I asked if I could hold is hand and he rolled onto his back and let me. After some questioning he opened up a bit. He said he wasn't really angry at me he just wanted to think on things without any outside interference. He was confused, he didn't feel sad really that best he could describe it was defeated. I again told him how sorry I am and that I love him, that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make things right between us. I asked if we could cuddle and he let me. I told him that I love him again and he didn't respond but did kiss my forehead. This morning we talked a bit more and I eventually tried to see if he wanted to be intimate but he declined which is unusual. We just had breakfast and RTBP is now in the backyard playing with the pups so that will cheer him up a little bit. He is still down but at least he is willing to let me keep him company and is willing to spend the day with me. I guess we can go spend the day along the lakeshore and maybe go to Dave and Busters, he loves that place. Things still aren't good but they're getting better and *I will not give up.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is the key right there. Persistence with patience.

Stay at it and reassure him until he tells you o stop.

Rinse and repeat.......


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## Refuse to be played

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Question for BS's - did you deal with much self-anger for "allowing" the affair to happen? For being "gullible" or "cuckolded"? *Please know these are not my terms, nor how I think of ANYONE who has been cheated on.


Not much anger and how could I have known. It all happened on business trips. I guess the best way to describe it is me feeling foolish and naive to think that our marriage was too happy/good for FG to cheat.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> If you did face those feelings, how did you come to terms with them? And, if you decided to attempt R, how did you get through feeling like you were "weak" for choosing to stay and work on the relationship?


I haven't come to terms with them yet and as for your other question I can't answer because I still haven't figured out how to stop feeling that way sometimes.


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## calvin

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Question for BS's - did you deal with much self-anger for "allowing" the affair to happen? For being "gullible" or "cuckolded"? *Please know these are not my terms, nor how I think of ANYONE who has been cheated on.
> 
> If you did face those feelings, how did you come to terms with them? And, if you decided to attempt R, how did you get through feeling like you were "weak" for choosing to stay and work on the relationship?


I feel to a point I allowed it to happen,I saw the history on her phone looking up
love horoscopes and it was not my b day.
I saw them many times and asked her and she denied it each time.
Sometimes I'm so angry with myself.
CSS would never do this!.....Never!
I still hate my self for not taking the damn blinders off.
Cuckhold? No,never felt that,just stupid,very stupid.
I believed her.
Even when a few around me were telling me to hire a PI,I still believed
It was something that could be worked out if I just kissed her ass and changed.
It was all my fault in my head for awhile.
It takes two to mess things up,it wasnt all on me but she was 100%
that the blame was on me,she told me this at MC.
I felt weak for awhile when I asked if she wanted to come back home.
I loved her and still do...I was VERY afraid what the ex con would do to her and
Felt it was my duty to keep her safe,I still feel she didnt know what she was in for.
Does an old hs bf really have that much pull?
Anyway,I know I made the right decision,I still second guess myself sometimes but
CSS seems very true.
I'd want that one chance if it was me.
Give it time Mrs. M.
I feel bad for most of the WS's here if that makes any sense.
Its just that I think they have seen the "light" and are taking the right steps to
Work on their marriages.
I feel really bad for the BS's here.
We had no choice.
We do have the choice to stay and work on our relationships though.
I dont feel weak anymore.
I feel I made the right choice but it bothers me that it did'nt have to be this way.
Hang tight.
True love really does conquer all...........it does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Although appreciated her planned trip to the lakeshore didn't turn out as good as she hoped. I wanted to leave after a couple of hours. I'm having a hard time describing how I'm feeling to FG. I don't feel particularly angry at her right now. Looking back on everything I just feel defeated like I told her earlier. I was no doormat or anything but I gave FG my all, and she went and did this. So now I feel a bit pessimistic towards everything, like why bother? Why bother staying or leaving? Its all the same. I trusted her more than I ever trusted another person in my life. No way is she going to gain it all back so why stay? And no way will I ever trust another woman like I did FG either so why leave? Now I love FG, really I do, but love can only go so far can it? Is all this just depression talking or how I really feel? My doctor is going to up my dosage on Zoloft on Tuesday. But when I feel happy/normal is that really me or the meds?

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense. I guess I'm rambling giving an example of whats been going through my head recently. Self reflection isn't exactly a strong point of mine.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Although appreciated her planned trip to the lakeshore didn't turn out as good as she hoped. I wanted to leave after a couple of hours. I'm having a hard time describing how I'm feeling to FG. I don't feel particularly angry at her right now. Looking back on everything I just feel defeated like I told her earlier. I was no doormat or anything but I gave FG my all, and she went and did this. So now I feel a bit pessimistic towards everything, like why bother? Why bother staying or leaving? Its all the same. I trusted her more than I ever trusted another person in my life. No way is she going to gain it all back so why stay? And no way will I ever trust another woman like I did FG either so why leave? Now I love FG, really I do, but love can only go so far can it? Is all this just depression talking or how I really feel? My doctor is going to up my dosage on Zoloft on Tuesday. But when I feel happy/normal is that really me or the meds?
> 
> Sorry if this doesn't make much sense. I guess I'm rambling giving an example of whats been going through my head recently. Self reflection isn't exactly a strong point of mine.


It makes perfect sense RTBP.
Pretty much the way I felt and sometimes still do.
You wanted this,just like me.
You wanted to repaire things with her,there must be something about her
Just like there is something about CSS that made me want to R and take a chance.
Give her time to prove it,be patient.
Let her show what she can do.Give her the chance or you might
Regret it.
It doesnt hurt to give her a shot does it?
She is going to have to run an obstical course over and over for you.
I think she is worth a chance.
Give it to her and let her show you.
I know how you feel bro.
Just hang on,it gets better and she can be the medicine you need.
It sucks.
I know,we all know.
Good vibes to you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

RTBP - why stay, despite being betrayed? GF and I have discussed this several times. A lot of the good stuff is still there between us, it just needed to be dug out and the weak or broken spots addressed. When we thought about it, we were matched up in a lot of subtle, really right ways, and different in ways that worked for us. So for us - more importantly for GF since she had to decide whether to believe again - that was the answer. It's definitely not perfect - nothing is. But we both feel it's worth it. Maybe you're staying for something similar with FG?

I'm sorry you're struggling right now.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> RTBP - why stay, despite being betrayed? GF and I have discussed this several times. A lot of the good stuff is still there between us, it just needed to be dug out and the weak or broken spots addressed. When we thought about it, we were matched up in a lot of subtle, really right ways, and different in ways that worked for us. So for us - more importantly for GF since she had to decide whether to believe again - that was the answer. It's definitely not perfect - nothing is. But we both feel it's worth it. Maybe you're staying for something similar with FG?
> 
> I'm sorry you're struggling right now.


Well put Sp.
Why does a BS try? Why try to work it out?
I'll start.
Because there is something(s) we see in our spouse.
The potential for them (and me) to become a better person?
What else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Ok I need an opinion, I hit WS with some tough questions and he side stepped them. I then laid it out hard, he answers or else. I thought he was going to start crying. Then he suddenly had to take off and put up the new flyers for Rosie. I even sat down and addressed his answers that he did give me some just to let him know the answer was unacceptable do it again. 
Oh he say he will do this and will do that but never does or does it once and never again until I nag.
He wants to talk about our anniversary cause he doesn't want to upset me and do the wrong thing. He says we've been married 11 yr.s Opps! wrong number. Our last beach trip he carves our names in the rock and spelled my name wrong. Gee could these be signs. I had to call him on it, "F!*k You can't even remember us anymore now either." Complains I haven't slept in our bed in 3 weeks, why would I he is sleeping and I end up crying myself to sleep. I refuse to share those tears with him. When I trigger I jump down his throat and he gets defensive. I close myself off.
Now I sit here start to think and I get worried that he is off to see her and or get dope. I can't believe I allowed myself to go there again. I forgot to install the GPS on his new phone. I have no reason to believe he would go do something crazy as he has tried to do many things right and is under so much stress from our personal life. Then again I know how he hates it when I drink and I had to go pour me another one. I think I'm doing some tit-f-tac things to get him upset and make him feel the pain. Not very nice of me Well should I be sticking to my guns over the questions? I think I should 2 yrs yesterday has been a long time coming. 

Aw he just pulled in thought he found our Rosie dead it wasn't her he is obsessed to find her. We have our anniversary on the 5th any ideas too?


----------



## soulpotato

jupiter13 said:


> soulpotato, that would make things worst for me as my three grand kids were living with us and their father came in and took them. I have not seem my babies since April and I miss them so very much. As I have said before it has been one thing after another since dday and I can't get out of the grief cycle. I am trying to find peace in the other dogs, Nuddy who just came to us is only one and someone throw him out of the car when they drove by as many of the cats and dogs that end up here are. Mending his ego and training is needed now not when I get around to it. Responsibilities before all else. If you know what I mean. I am lucky to have here to vent and get support as I have it no where else. Thank you all.


I do know what you mean. I never disregard my responsibilities, at least not important ones. I'm sorry to hear that you're dealing with missing your grandchildren on top of everything else.  But you still persist in doing good in the world - it's great that you take animals in and give them a good home.

TAM is one of my few supports, too. I'm glad you're here as well. I really hope that you get a break soon.


----------



## soulpotato

GF brought up our rings on her own today. She said as long as we make them true again - as well as reflecting as a couple the meaning that they should have had - she is okay with keeping them. I was very surprised by that!


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> Although appreciated her planned trip to the lakeshore didn't turn out as good as she hoped. I wanted to leave after a couple of hours. I'm having a hard time describing how I'm feeling to FG. I don't feel particularly angry at her right now. Looking back on everything I just feel defeated like I told her earlier. I was no doormat or anything but *I gave FG my all, and she went and did this. So now I feel a bit pessimistic towards everything, like why bother?* Why bother staying or leaving? Its all the same. I trusted her more than I ever trusted another person in my life. No way is she going to gain it all back so why stay? And no way will I ever trust another woman like I did FG either so why leave? Now I love FG, really I do, but love can only go so far can it? Is all this just depression talking or how I really feel? My doctor is going to up my dosage on Zoloft on Tuesday. But when I feel happy/normal is that really me or the meds?
> 
> Sorry if this doesn't make much sense. I guess I'm rambling giving an example of whats been going through my head recently. Self reflection isn't exactly a strong point of mine.


I want you to look at that statement for a minute. Do you think you have any control over what FG did or does? Do you think anything you did or didn't do had any impact on what she did or didn't do? What you need to understand is that what FG did has NOTHING to do with you. It was her decision and her's alone. And it is only FG that can work through the reasons she was able to do it and what she needs to do in order to make sure it doesn't happen again.

So......

what is your job while FG does all this and supports you and helps you heal? Your job is to work through your feelings and find the strength within you to work toward forgiveness. This is not for FG but for you because if you let that poison settle it will destroy you.

Your job is also to work toward becoming the best man you can be. That includes doing some self examination and seeing the ways that you could have been a better partner, lover, friend and husband. And don't say you were perfect because none of us are.

But understand that while you are looking to better yourself and determine the ways that you could have been a better partner you must keep in mind that none of this has anything to do with what FG did. You might be partially responsible for any issues that were in the marriage but you have no responsibility for the infidelity.

You are working on yourself not because of any failure on your part pre-infidelity. You are working on yourself so that when you and FG work through this very large bump in the road the new marriage you will build together will be incredibly fulfilling and stronger than ever.

From what I've seen from FG she is taking full responsibility for her poor decisions and for the damage she's caused. She is atoning for the hurt you are experiencing. Will she cheat on you again? I doubt it but in life there are no guarantees. What I will say is that the chances that she will cheat again are no more than the chances that someone else would cheat on you or that you will cheat on her. We all have the capability to betray and hurt the ones we love. But the chances that someone will commit infidelity drop dramatically when they do the self examination that FG is going to have to do and build the stronger boundaries that she will also undoubtedly do. When I say you should never trust anyone 100% or to have blind trust in anyone, many people call me cynical. What they don't understand is that I'm not advocating not trusting anyone, I'm simply stating that since we are all human and have the potential to betray those closest to us that knowledge should keep all of us on our toes so that we can guard against hurting or being hurt in the extreme.


----------



## calvin

Jupiter,
You have a whole lot on your plate right now,an awfull lot.
Sometimes all we see is our pain and it gets magnified by things that
happen,even if it has nothing to do with our WS,I'm guitly of this.
Is he doing all he can? As a BS sometimes we expect our spouses to become
Super heros and solve all the problems at once.
They cant,they are just human like us,yes they did us wrong but to
think they can make everything right in a short amount of time
is delusional of us.....I'm still guitly of that also.
Give him time,give yourself time.
I hope you both are in some form of counselng,sorry if I dont remember.
You are still with him for a reason,he is still there for a reason and I bet its love.

I'm sorry about your dog,I'm an animal lver also.
Years ago our cat took off...she came back three months later.
CSS heard a meow outside,I told her she was nuts.
Sure enough it was our cat.
Someone had to have found her and took care of her.
Miracles happen,I'm proof.
Hang in there and hold on.
Give the hubs a shot at what he can do......you might be surprised.
I was.
Youre in me and CSS's prayers.
Things will get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> It makes perfect sense RTBP.
> Pretty much the way I felt and sometimes still do.
> You wanted this,just like me.
> You wanted to repaire things with her,there must be something about her
> Just like there is something about CSS that made me want to R and take a chance.
> Give her time to prove it,be patient.
> Let her show what she can do.Give her the chance or you might
> Regret it.
> It doesnt hurt to give her a shot does it?
> She is going to have to run an obstical course over and over for you.
> I think she is worth a chance.
> Give it to her and let her show you.
> I know how you feel bro.
> Just hang on,it gets better and she can be the medicine you need.
> It sucks.
> I know,we all know.
> Good vibes to you both.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





soulpotato said:


> RTBP - why stay, despite being betrayed? GF and I have discussed this several times. A lot of the good stuff is still there between us, it just needed to be dug out and the weak or broken spots addressed. When we thought about it, we were matched up in a lot of subtle, really right ways, and different in ways that worked for us. So for us - more importantly for GF since she had to decide whether to believe again - that was the answer. It's definitely not perfect - nothing is. But we both feel it's worth it. Maybe you're staying for something similar with FG?
> 
> I'm sorry you're struggling right now.


Thanks you two, what you say does make a lot of sense. Calvin, I'm by no means giving up on R. I know I have to give FG a chance and its been pointed out that while we have been doing well it still only just been 11 weeks since dday. She'll get her chance, I'm giving this R until I graduate next winter, FG has plenty of time.

SP you're right. There is a lot of good between us and we do mess well. I'd have a hard time finding another woman that matches as well with me. She's more than just my wife she's my best friend. I'm gonna try to focus on that I guess.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Thanks you two, what you say does make a lot of sense. Calvin, I'm by no means giving up on R. I know I have to give FG a chance and its been pointed out that while we have been doing well it still only just been 11 weeks since dday. She'll get her chance, I'm giving this R until I graduate next winter, FG has plenty of time.
> 
> SP you're right. There is a lot of good between us and we do mess well. I'd have a hard time finding another woman that matches as well with me. She's more than just my wife she's my best friend. I'm gonna try to focus on that I guess.


Both of you hang on.
The pain is still fresh and still hurts but I promise,if FG is true and I feel she is
you both will come out of this much stronger.
I still stuggle but I would do it all over again I swear I would.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> I want you to look at that statement for a minute. Do you think you have any control over what FG did or does? Do you think anything you did or didn't do had any impact on what she did or didn't do? What you need to understand is that what FG did has NOTHING to do with you. It was her decision and her's alone. And it is only FG that can work through the reasons she was able to do it and what she needs to do in order to make sure it doesn't happen again.
> 
> I realize this wasn't my fault and that its all on FG. I was just thinking things were good between us, not perfect but good. I guess I figure if this can happen in just 4 yrs with minimal problems what could happen in 10+ yrs with two careers and kids?
> So......
> 
> what is your job while FG does all this and supports you and helps you heal? Your job is to work through your feelings and find the strength within you to work toward forgiveness. This is not for FG but for you because if you let that poison settle it will destroy you.
> 
> I'm trying but this is difficult. I'm the type that just buries emotional stuff. Confronting stuff like this and self reflection are foreign to me. But I'm trying its just bring a lot of stuff to the surface.
> 
> Your job is also to work toward becoming the best man you can be. That includes doing some self examination and seeing the ways that you could have been a better partner, lover, friend and husband. And don't say you were perfect because none of us are.
> 
> I know I wasn't the greatest husband in the world. I can already tell you I was prideful. I did not want her taking care of me so I busted my a## with two unnecessary jobs.
> 
> But understand that while you are looking to better yourself and determine the ways that you could have been a better partner you must keep in mind that none of this has anything to do with what FG did. You might be partially responsible for any issues that were in the marriage but you have no responsibility for the infidelity.
> 
> I knew FG has trouble opening up and I use to always have to get her to tell me whats wrong with her or if she had a problem. I got tired of it at some point and stopped. I figured if something was really bothering her she would say something. I was wrong and I won't let that happen again.
> 
> You are working on yourself not because of any failure on your part pre-infidelity. You are working on yourself so that when you and FG work through this very large bump in the road the new marriage you will build together will be incredibly fulfilling and stronger than ever.
> 
> I want that. Really I do.
> 
> From what I've seen from FG she is taking full responsibility for her poor decisions and for the damage she's caused. She is atoning for the hurt you are experiencing. Will she cheat on you again? I doubt it but in life there are no guarantees. What I will say is that the chances that she will cheat again are no more than the chances that someone else would cheat on you or that you will cheat on her. We all have the capability to betray and hurt the ones we love. But the chances that someone will commit infidelity drop dramatically when they do the self examination that FG is going to have to do and build the stronger boundaries that she will also undoubtedly do. When I say you should never trust anyone 100% or to have blind trust in anyone, many people call me cynical. What they don't understand is that I'm not advocating not trusting anyone, I'm simply stating that since we are all human and have the potential to betray those closest to us that knowledge should keep all of us on our toes so that we can guard against hurting or being hurt in the extreme.


R or not though I'm not lowering my guard all the way with anyone ever again so the trust thing won't be a problem.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Babe I'm so sorry. I hate that you're going through this and I'm so thankful for you trying regardless how this turns out. I love you so much and I want to do everything I can to help you so we can be happy again. I'm respecting your desire to be alone but I would really appreciate it if I could come downstairs and sit with you we don't even have to talk. I just want to sit next to you. Please?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Babe I'm so sorry. I hate that you're going through this and I'm so thankful for you trying regardless how this turns out. I love you so much and I want to do everything I can to help you so we can be happy again. I'm respecting your desire to be alone but I would really appreciate it if I could come downstairs and sit with you we don't even have to talk. I just want to sit next to you. Please?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like CSS and her sitting next to me helped us both.
No work tomorrow......you kids have some fun tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Babe I'm so sorry. I hate that you're going through this and I'm so thankful for you trying regardless how this turns out. I love you so much and I want to do everything I can to help you so we can be happy again. I'm respecting your desire to be alone but I would really appreciate it if I could come downstairs and sit with you we don't even have to talk. I just want to sit next to you. Please?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fine, come on down. Why didn't you just shout this? I would've replied quicker. :scratchhead:


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Sounds like CSS and her sitting next to me helped us both.
> No work tomorrow......you kids have some fun tonight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you calvin. That's the plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Refuse to be played said:


> Fine, come on down. Why didn't you just shout this? I would've replied quicker. :scratchhead:


do some W S post alongside their B S as a means of manipulation? To manipulate their situation with the B S in their favor?


----------



## Refuse to be played

nuclearnightmare said:


> do some W S post alongside their B S as a means of manipulation? To manipulate their situation with the B S in their favor?


FG left her iPad upstairs so she says she was just giving me my space and she didn't want to interrupt that without permission. She would've text me but my cell is in our room.

Honestly to me it doesn't really matter. Whoopty doo not that big of a deal.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Refuse to be played said:


> R or not though I'm not lowering my guard all the way with anyone ever again so the trust thing won't be a problem.





bfree said:


> I want you to look at that statement for a minute. Do you think you have any control over what FG did or does? Do you think anything you did or didn't do had any impact on what she did or didn't do? What you need to understand is that what FG did has NOTHING to do with you. It was her decision and her's alone. And it is only FG that can work through the reasons she was able to do it and what she needs to do in order to make sure it doesn't happen again.
> 
> So......
> 
> what is your job while FG does all this and supports you and helps you heal? Your job is to work through your feelings and find the strength within you to work toward forgiveness. This is not for FG but for you because if you let that poison settle it will destroy you.
> 
> Your job is also to work toward becoming the best man you can be. That includes doing some self examination and seeing the ways that you could have been a better partner, lover, friend and husband. And don't say you were perfect because none of us are.
> 
> But understand that while you are looking to better yourself and determine the ways that you could have been a better partner you must keep in mind that none of this has anything to do with what FG did. You might be partially responsible for any issues that were in the marriage but you have no responsibility for the infidelity.
> 
> You are working on yourself not because of any failure on your part pre-infidelity. You are working on yourself so that when you and FG work through this very large bump in the road the new marriage you will build together will be incredibly fulfilling and stronger than ever.
> 
> From what I've seen from FG she is taking full responsibility for her poor decisions and for the damage she's caused. She is atoning for the hurt you are experiencing. Will she cheat on you again? I doubt it but in life there are no guarantees. What I will say is that the chances that she will cheat again are no more than the chances that someone else would cheat on you or that you will cheat on her. We all have the capability to betray and hurt the ones we love. But the chances that someone will commit infidelity drop dramatically when they do the self examination that FG is going to have to do and build the stronger boundaries that she will also undoubtedly do. When I say you should never trust anyone 100% or to have blind trust in anyone, many people call me cynical. What they don't understand is that I'm not advocating not trusting anyone, I'm simply stating that since we are all human and have the potential to betray those closest to us that knowledge should keep all of us on our toes so that we can guard against hurting or being hurt in the extreme.


With due respect (you make many thoughtful posts), must call foul on your last paragraph. He could likely find someone else who would never cheat on him once, if he decided to set out to do that. And the chances of her cheating again are no more than the chance of him cheating on her? Why would you think that??


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Refuse to be played said:


> FG left her iPad upstairs so she says she was just giving me my space and she didn't want to interrupt that without permission. She would've text me but my cell is in our room.
> 
> Honestly to me it doesn't really matter. Whoopty doo not that big of a deal.


But, as you've just pointed out in a post, what could be a big deal is if her cheating occurred again when you guys have kids. Then you'll be trapped, or feel trapped. Regardless, getting out will much harder emotionally. Keep that in the front of your mind, for your sake........


----------



## Refuse to be played

nuclearnightmare said:


> But, as you've just pointed out in a post, what could be a big deal is if her cheating occurred again when you guys have kids. Then you'll be trapped, or feel trapped. Regardless, getting out will much harder emotionally. Keep that in the front of your mind, for your sake........


Her trying to trap me with a kid would be moot, I've stated that before. A kid will have little to no impact on whether I would decide to D or not. I had a front row seat for my parents drama. I was right there for things parents here on TAM and other forums don't want to tell their children twice my age then. Inner city thing I guess, more public with matters of infidelity. Point is, despite all the crap I experienced, I turned out relatively ok. I guarantee any kid of mines childhood will be a helluva lot better than mine. They will be fine either in one home or two. People grossly overestimate the effects of divorce on kids IMHO, they can adapt. I did and any child of mine can too.

Oh and she knows this. I made this clear on day 1.


----------



## EI

nuclearnightmare said:


> do some W S post alongside their B S as a means of manipulation? To manipulate their situation with the B S in their favor?



Since only a "WS" can answer this question with any certainty, I'll answer. Obviously, I can only answer for myself. Posting alongside my spouse as a means of manipulating the situation in my favor never crossed my mind. I posted my thread before my BS posted his. I didn't tell him that I had posted here and he, to my knowledge, wasn't aware of TAM. But, being just over two weeks from D-Day, like me, my husband was searching for answers and he stumbled across my thread a day or two after I posted it. At that point, he began one of his own. Within a couple of months he started this thread and we began posting on it, together. In most of the situations that I am aware of on TAM where the couples post alongside one another, the BS has usually begun posting first, expresses some desire to explore the possibility of reconciling and at the urging of the resident TAMers, invites their WS to post, too. TAMers love getting their keyboards fired up to dissect a new WS.

I'm not saying that what you're suggesting isn't possible, but I don't think I've seen it in the nearly 15 months I've been on TAM. TBH, TAM would be the last place a WS would want to attempt to manipulate their BS's. The BS (as in bull$hit, not betrayed spouse) detectors would be going off like crazy. And, finally, a WS who isn't truly remorseful and interested in learning about the hard work involved in reconciliation simply isn't gonna stick around here. It can be a hostile environment for WS's.

It's a very valid question. And, again, I can only answer from my own personal point of view. I hope this helps.


----------



## calvin

nuclearnightmare said:


> But, as you've just pointed out in a post, what could be a big deal is if her cheating occurred again when you guys have kids. Then you'll be trapped, or feel trapped. Regardless, getting out will much harder emotionally. Keep that in the front of your mind, for your sake........


IF my Aunt Alberta had a sack of nuts she's be my Uncle Albert.
What if,what if.
What can be is the question.
Sorry you're hurting dude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Keep that in the front of your mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Refuse to be played said:


> Her trying to trap me with a kid would be moot, I've stated that before. A kid will have little to no impact on whether I would decide to D or not. I had a front row seat for my parents drama. I was right there for things parents here on TAM and other forums don't want to tell their children twice my age then. Inner city thing I guess, more public with matters of infidelity. Point is, despite all the crap I experienced, I turned out relatively ok. I guarantee any kid of mines childhood will be a helluva lot better than mine. They will be fine either in one home or two. People grossly overestimate the effects of divorce on kids IMHO, they can adapt. I did and any child of mine can too.
> 
> Oh and she knows this. I made this clear on day 1.


RTBP, you and FG, both, have a certain brand of strength and determination. It bodes well for you whether you ultimately choose reconciliation or to go separate ways. But, since this is the Reconciliation thread, I will not deny that I hope that you guys use your strength, determination and oh-so-obvious love for one another to reconcile. I have a very good feeling about the two of you. But, that doesn't mean that's it's easy, because it's NOT.


----------



## bfree

nuclearnightmare said:


> With due respect (you make many thoughtful posts), must call foul on your last paragraph. *He could likely find someone else who would never cheat on him once*, if he decided to set out to do that. And the chances of her cheating again are no more than the chance of him cheating on her? Why would you think that??


How do you know that? Is there some test a doctor can give someone that shows they aren't capable of cheating? Is there some religion or maybe just a summer camp that teaches boundaries so strong that cheating is just never a worry? Is there some shot that can innoculate someone against infidelity? Do you honestly believe that there is anyone on this planet that is not capable of betraying those closest around them? If so, then you are in more trouble than most.


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## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> R or not though I'm not lowering my guard all the way with anyone ever again so the trust thing won't be a problem.


And with this one post I can see at least three things that you both should work on.

You need to tackle emotional issues head on and not bury them. Be more emotionally available while still maintaining a sense of strength and stability. Maybe a first step is to let FG in when you're hurting....like right now.

FG needs to be more open and up front about issues that affect you both. Even issues that are personal to her affect you both and should never be hidden. This is something she needs to work on because it is too easy for someone else to weasel their way into her mind under the guise of "helping."

You need to find more balance as it pertains to work and time. This is for both of you since I'm sure it was stressful and tiring having to work so much that there really was't an opportunity to relax and decompress.

But you knew all this before. What you probably didn't know was how these small issues could balloon into something more dangerous and threatening. Like EI I have a good feeling about you two and since all this stuff is being brought out now I can see you both building an incredibly strong and fulfilling marriage going forward.


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## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> RTBP, you and FG, both, have a certain brand of strength and determination. It bodes well for you whether you ultimately choose reconciliation or to go separate ways. But, since this is the Reconciliation thread, I will not deny that I hope that you guys use your strength, determination and oh-so-obvious love for one another to reconcile. I have a very good feeling about the two of you. But, that doesn't mean that's it's easy, because it's NOT.


Thank you EI. Your words really mean a lot and it is appreciated. I am all in for our reconciliation and I'm more than willing to do everything I can to see it through. I love RTBP more than I ever truly express. He is my best friend and just like him I doubt another man will ever complete me the way he does. Thank you again for the vote of confidence and yes this hard but I'm not giving up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> And with this one post I can see at least three things that you both should work on.
> 
> You need to tackle emotional issues head on and not bury them. Be more emotionally available while still maintaining a sense of strength and stability. Maybe a first step is to let FG in when you're hurting....like right now.
> 
> FG needs to be more open and up front about issues that affect you both. Even issues that are personal to her affect you both and should never be hidden. This is something she needs to work on because it is too easy for someone else to weasel their way into her mind under the guise of "helping."
> 
> You need to find more balance as it pertains to work and time. This is for both of you since I'm sure it was stressful and tiring having to work so much that there really was't an opportunity to relax and decompress.
> 
> But you knew all this before. What you probably didn't know was how these small issues could balloon into something more dangerous and threatening. Like EI I have a good feeling about you two and since all this stuff is being brought out now I can see you both building an incredibly strong and fulfilling marriage going forward.


This our problem I run from my emotional problems and he buries his. He is making an attempt to let me in but its hard for him. We spent all night talking, sharing, and being intimate. I feel closer to him now and I think he would agree despite still being a bit down. I know I need to confront my issues and not run from them. That's almost cost me my marriage, I won't let that happen again. There will be no one weaseling in, I'm avoiding men not because I don't trust myself but because it helps him. I'm in IC and I'm looking hard inward and I'm going to get to the bottom of my issues so we can build a stronger marriage. Once I find me another job and he graduates and begins his career we will make a point to stay close, relax, and stay bonded. We both now see how small things can sneak up and snowball and we will not let it come between us again. Thank you I want nothing more than the incredibly strong and fulfilling marriage you spoke of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

EI said:


> I'm not saying that what you're suggesting isn't possible, but I don't think I've seen it in the nearly 15 months I've been on TAM. TBH, TAM would be the last place a WS would want to attempt to manipulate their BS's. The BS (as in bull$hit, not betrayed spouse) detectors would be going off like crazy. And, finally, a WS who isn't truly remorseful and interested in learning about the hard work involved in reconciliation simply isn't gonna stick around here. It can be a hostile environment for WS's.


Mrs. Mathias would be an example of somebody in false R trying to BS her BS on TAM. I'm sure she can attest to the fact that TAM was merciless in the attacks on her.


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## EI

larry.gray said:


> Mrs. Mathias would be an example of somebody in false R trying to BS her BS on TAM. I'm sure she can attest to the fact that TAM was merciless in the attacks on her.


Then, I stand corrected. I confess that I didn't begin following their story until several weeks after they had both begun to post.


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## larry.gray

EI said:


> Then, I stand corrected. I confess that I didn't begin following their story until several weeks after they had both begun to post.


No correction... it confirms you suspicions on how the TAM community would react.


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## bfree

larry.gray said:


> No correction... it confirms you suspicions on how the TAM community would react.


Yeah, despite the so called agendas and bitterness that have been levied the TAM community is pretty good at seeing through the haze and discerning the truth. I love this thread because people who post here will hold feet to the fire but do so in a supportive and positive way.


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## larry.gray

bfree said:


> Yeah, despite the so called agendas and bitterness that have been levied the TAM community is pretty good at seeing through the haze and discerning the truth. I love this thread because people who post here will hold feet to the fire but do so in a supportive and positive way.


It is a hard line to define on how hard to allow people to be on a WS or fWS. Too hard and they'll not get the help they need. Not hard enough and they get away with keeping the BullS flowing.


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## calvin

Ok,I missed something.
Mrs.M is bsing Mr.M?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrMathias

calvin said:


> Ok,I missed something.
> Mrs.M is bsing Mr.M?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They're referencing her very first thread here (in November), which was simply all the same lies she told me. She couldn't change her story at that point now could she? 

As much as every BS want's to think 'But my case is different!' there's really nothing special or unique about our case- it's really just textbook trickle truth and 'cheater's code' (just kissing=BJ or sex, sex once=multiple times, sex 'okay' = great, book drop offs=booty call, etc.). 

If anyone spends a couple days in this forum they find out that cheater script is followed about 99% of the time and so many people here called her out on it. The people here know cheater code. In retrospect I'm surprised how many people believed her early posts. I think she was trying to turn a new leaf in a misguided way, but she wasn't about to come clean to me so there's no way she'd do it here. Unlike the very few WS that post here she hadn't taken the last crucial steps to telling truth before she started posting, thus the very messy forum expsoure. 

I'm comfortable with the level of 'truth' I have at this point. One of the things that is a major barrier to our 'R' is that she never came clean on her own, and in moments where she unequivocally stated 'this is the truth', it wasn't. 

Cheaters- if you're done cheating and want to work it out, 'fess up when you are given the chance. Before it is too late.

ETA: Just to clarify, there's been no new discoveries or 'BS' being foisted for many months now. MrsM has been a good girl.


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## calvin

MrMathias said:


> They're referencing her very first thread here (in November), which was simply all the same lies she told me. She couldn't change her story at that point now could she?
> 
> As much as every BS want's to think 'But my case is different!' there's really nothing special or unique about our case- it's really just textbook trickle truth and 'cheater's code' (just kissing=BJ or sex, sex once=multiple times, sex 'okay' = great, book drop offs=booty call, etc.).
> 
> If anyone spends a couple days in this forum they find out that cheater script is followed about 99% of the time and so many people here called her out on it. The people here know cheater code. In retrospect I'm surprised how many people believed her early posts. I think she was trying to turn a new leaf in a misguided way, but she wasn't about to come clean to me so there's no way she'd do it here. Unlike the very few WS that post here she hadn't taken the last crucial steps to telling truth before she started posting.
> 
> I'm comfortable with the level of 'truth' I have at this point. One of the things that is a major barrier to our 'R' is that she never came clean on her own, and in moments where she unequivocally stated 'this is the truth', it wasn't.
> 
> Cheaters- if you're done cheating and want to work it out, 'fess up when you are given the chance. Before it is too late.
> 
> ETA: Just to clarify, there's been no new discoveries or 'BS' being foisted for many months now. MrsM has been a good girl.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Ok Mr. M.
I'm sorry,I hope the best for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Yes, when I first came here I was still lying about the details of my affair. The questions I asked were honest in motivation - my thread was not "how do I get my husband to believe me". So from that perspective, I didn't come here to "manipulate" my husband as PP asked.

And TAM is very good and cutting through the baloney. 

Lies are the worst part, and the hardest to really let go of, at least for me. I couldn't see how Matt could possibly give me a chance if he really knew, and now I have to live with the fact that those lies may ultimately be what we cannot recover from. I deluded myself with ideas like "that's just going to have to be my burden to bear."

So if you have the opportunity to be truthful - do it. No matter how painful, how scared, or how certain you are that it will be the last conversation you ever have. You may be wrong, but if you continue lying, you will never have real hope for improvement.


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## calvin

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Yes, when I first came here I was still lying about the details of my affair. The questions I asked were honest in motivation - my thread was not "how do I get my husband to believe me". So from that perspective, I didn't come here to "manipulate" my husband as PP asked.
> 
> And TAM is very good and cutting through the baloney.
> 
> Lies are the worst part, and the hardest to really let go of, at least for me. I couldn't see how Matt could possibly give me a chance if he really knew, and now I have to live with the fact that those lies may ultimately be what we cannot recover from. I deluded myself with ideas like "that's just going to have to be my burden to bear."
> 
> So if you have the opportunity to be truthful - do it. No matter how painful, how scared, or how certain you are that it will be the last conversation you ever have. You may be wrong, but if you continue lying, you will never have real hope for improvement.


Good Mrs.M
Glad you understand that.
Not my place to judge,be honest with Mr.M always.
In our prayers,both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare

Forever Grateful said:


> This our problem I run from my emotional problems and he buries his. He is making an attempt to let me in but its hard for him. We spent all night talking, sharing, and being intimate. I feel closer to him now and I think he would agree despite still being a bit down. I know I need to confront my issues and not run from them. That's almost cost me my marriage, I won't let that happen again. There will be no one weaseling in, I'm avoiding men not because I don't trust myself but because it helps him. I'm in IC and I'm looking hard inward and I'm going to get to the bottom of my issues so we can build a stronger marriage. Once I find me another job and he graduates and begins his career we will make a point to stay close, relax, and stay bonded. We both now see how small things can sneak up and snowball and we will not let it come between us again. Thank you I want nothing more than the incredibly strong and fulfilling marriage you spoke of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



FG
have read all your posts. And I don't know whether posters on this thread have in fact not really "held your feet to the fire" or whether you have just successfully resisted them but.......I don't see where you have tried to explain why you did what you did to someone you claim to love. So why? Why did you cheat on him and get yourself pregnant by the OM?


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## soulpotato

nuclearnightmare said:


> FG
> have read all your posts. And I don't know whether posters on this thread have in fact not really "held your feet to the fire" or whether you have just successfully resisted them but.......I don't see where you have tried to explain why you did what you did to someone you claim to love. So why? Why did you cheat on him and get yourself pregnant by the OM?


Who says she hasn't tried to explain it to her husband offline? We people on TAM are not going to be privy to every little detail of what happens or what is discussed between spouses - nor should we be. It is up to RTBP to weigh and judge what FG says and does, not random users on TAM who know very little about either of them or their lives. She must answer to her husband for what she has done, not to you...


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## nuclearnightmare

Refuse to be played said:


> Her trying to trap me with a kid would be moot, I've stated that before. A kid will have little to no impact on whether I would decide to D or not. I had a front row seat for my parents drama. I was right there for things parents here on TAM and other forums don't want to tell their children twice my age then. Inner city thing I guess, more public with matters of infidelity. Point is, despite all the crap I experienced, I turned out relatively ok. I guarantee any kid of mines childhood will be a helluva lot better than mine. They will be fine either in one home or two. People grossly overestimate the effects of divorce on kids IMHO, they can adapt. I did and any child of mine can too.
> 
> Oh and she knows this. I made this clear on day 1.


But obviously you want to avoid that scenario, married to W S or not. I think you need more time away from her to fully digest what she did. You were separated from her for...2weeks or so? That's not enough. Being constantly exposed to her crying, pleading and cajoling does not allow you to consider, with clarity, what is best FOR YOU. Versus what is best for her or best for the marriage.

That's what I'm seeing. I've read all of your thread


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## nuclearnightmare

soulpotato said:


> Who says she hasn't tried to explain it to her husband offline? We people on TAM are not going to be privy to every little detail of what happens or what is discussed between spouses - nor should we be. It is up to RTBP to weigh and judge what FG says and does, not random users on TAM who know very little about either of them or their lives. She must answer to her husband for what she has done, not to you...


She can't be forced to answer anything, or to post at all for that matter. But I've yet to see a W S on T A M that has not been asked "why." Or one that has not tried to answer. An issue of W S credibility..........


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## happyman64

> but if you continue lying, you will never have real hope for improvement.


Ahh Mrs M. You have grown up some and have learned a very valuable lesson.

Keep on growing and stay healthy for tHat baby.

HM


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## Refuse to be played

nuclearnightmare said:


> But obviously you want to avoid that scenario, married to W S or not. I think you need more time away from her to fully digest what she did. You were separated from her for...2weeks or so? That's not enough. Being constantly exposed to her crying, pleading and cajoling does not allow you to consider, with clarity, what is best FOR YOU. Versus what is best for her or best for the marriage.
> 
> That's what I'm seeing. I've read all of your thread


I'm very much aware of what she has done. We've talked more than once about what she done, down to the fine details. The painful details of her A that I have not and will not share here. More time away wasn't really necessary. I know perfectly well my position in this. I COULD walk away. I would make out quite well in fact. I'd finish school collect alimony and live the single bachelor life in one of the biggest cities in the US. I'm young, with a bright future ahead of me and I'm in the best shape of my life. My ego and self-esteem are intact enough to know I'd have no problem getting women. I KNOW I'D BE MORE THAN GOOD, I'D BE GREAT! Right now I CHOOSE to go a different way and give her a chance.

And this happened in my old thread as well. People thinking she is some master manipulator or something. I keep having to bring this up...if she could've hid her guilt, compartmentalize it, or rationalize it she would have gotten away with it and I would have NEVER known. How could I? 



nuclearnightmare said:


> She can't be forced to answer anything, or to post at all for that matter. But I've yet to see a W S on T A M that has not been asked "why." Or one that has not tried to answer. An issue of W S credibility..........


She has answer this question...to me. She has given me a (granted undetailed) version of why she believes she did it and she has been working in IC on it as well. At some point soon I'm suppose to go with her to her IC session and then in front of the counselor she'll explain fully how she allowed herself to do what she did. Believe it or not she hasn't been the one that hesitant to discuss this and other crap about the A, thats usually me.

And she hasn't *not* tried to answer the question by the way. I believe you're the first to out right ask her why. I told FG that I don't care whether or not she answers here.


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## CantSitStill

FG I also was one to run from conflict. I literally would walk out the door and take a walk whenever I was upset with calvin rather than letting him know I was upset. It was hard but I have been doing a much better job of being present when issues that are uncomfortable need to be discussed, whether it's something I'm doing that is bothering him or something he has done to bother me. I am willing to fight for my marriage no matter how hard it gets. I will never give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> FG I also was one to run from conflict. I literally would walk out the door and take a walk whenever I was upset with calvin rather than letting him know I was upset. It was hard but I have been doing a much better job of being present when issues that are uncomfortable need to be discussed, whether it's something I'm doing that is bothering him or something he has done to bother me. I am willing to fight for my marriage no matter how hard it gets. I will never give up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love you sweetheart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Ok I got permission so here it goes. Like to say right off the bat that RTBP is in NO WAY responsible for my A. 

I'm a hardcore conflict avoid-er, I don't rock the boat at all. RTBP would say it was a 24/7 job getting me to communicate what was wrong with me in our relationship.

Once I was secure in my new position at my job and we got acclimated to the city, the plan was RTBP goes back to school full time and I was to take care of the rest. But he decided he would work as well a part time job in the day between classes and a full time graveyard shift at a warehouse. I didn't like the lack of time between us at all but being a conflict avoider I never said anything this went on for 2 years. Between him constantly busy and exhausted and me traveling frequently I guess we sort of disconnected from one another. 

Also I had poor boundaries. I wasn't use to attention and didn't discourage it when I got it. In fact me and RTBP would use guys that hit on me to get unknowingly get us drinks when we would go to bars or clubs. 

Now enter my ex-boss. He was one of the 3 individuals that hired me after I graduated with my MBA. He always had a mentor/cool uncle kind of vibe when dealing with those of us that worked directly under him and he took me and another male colleague of mine under his wing directly. In hindsight I guess he did it to get closer, I don't know, for nearly 4 years he didn't say anything inappropriate to me until last fall. He started flirting and dropping innuendos and what not and at first it caught me off guard because he never did that. In the end though I didn't think much of it, he wasn't the first guy at my job to try to flirt or have a crush so I said whatever. I now know that I should have got RTBP involved right then and there.

In early Dec we were on a big mid-week trip. Not getting into any specifics, I was running a presentation for a big new partner of ours and there was a screw up with my team that ultimately I was responsible for that nearly cost us the deal. My boss step in fixed it and took blame for the screw up. I'm a wreck I spend the rest of the night in the hotel bar with co-workers and when that closes we go to a co-workers room where he has liquor. Yes I know now stupid but like I said bad boundaries. Boss takes me back to my room after a bit and while there he starts to kiss me. I don't stop him, I guess out of drunken stupidity and/or gratitude for saving my butt earlier. The next day I told him it was a one time thing and to never speak of it again. I didn't tell RTBP because, well I wanted to save my own a--, and I was afraid of how he'd react. Once we were back home he started pestering me in my office or on our work email. Didn't do anything because again I was afraid to confront him and afraid to go to RTBP. After we got back from our holiday vacation I was informed my boss put me forward for a promotion. 

In mid January we go on our first trip since that one time and I honestly go with no intention of it continuing. While we are gone he is constantly trying to talk to me about being with him how he has feelings etc. This is the part where my IC is focusing on. I wasn't physically attracted to my boss, RTBP has been very descriptive of him. And while I admit to having a emotional connection on some level it was no where near love. My IC feels I allowed it to continue because I wanted to hold on the the feelings comfort he gave me and how he acted as my safety net mixed with what she calls an obligatory affair.

Find out about the pregnancy was the wake up call I needed. I couldn't keep ignoring or running from this. I told my boss it was over and that I would go to HR if he ever talked to me about anything non-work related again. I wanted RTBP to never find out, I just wanted to forget about all of it.


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## warlock07

1). Why did you not use protection ?

2) No way to put it nicely but you knew he finished inside you(not sure why you let it happen with a guy you are not attracted to. This is a huge thing intimacy wise to many couples). So why did you not take any precaution the next day ? 

3) How many relationships did you have before RTBP ?(Posted something related to this in his original thread)


(Not looking to attack here)


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## Mrs_Mathias

Please send positive thoughts Matt's way. We've had a rough couple of days, and he's experiencing a lot of negativity tonight.


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## cpacan

This post is long, but it serves to describe how fvcked up the brain (read: my brain) can be after infidelity. I had a very confusing and exhausting day yesterday, and I was about to post on here for immediate help several times during the day.

Yesterday was our copper anniversary, 12½ years ago we got married at city hall witnessed only by a couple of close friends, 5 years later we repeated the ceremony in church and threw the party for family and all our friends. We usually think of the first ceremony as the one to celebrate.

Three-four weeks ago I told her about my tainted memories especially those related to our wedding day(s) and how much it still hurts me to think about the ceremonies vs. the deception 3 years ago. I still don’t wear my ring as a symbol which in turn hurts her. I told her 5-6 months ago that I wasn’t interested in celebrating the copper anniversary with a party, which is partly why we extended our summer vacation.

We had the discussion again Friday when she said that she had cancelled her gym-session for kids on Monday since it’s her anniversary. I asked what her expectations for Monday would be. She said that maybe we could go out and have dinner together as a family. This talk took a turn when I asked her directly what she had done to change, if she understood what made her betray me and how I was supposed to be safe with her again.

It’s the first time in years I’ve seen her cry this way, silently and sad. Many things were said, one of them being that she had thought a lot about leaving me, because it’s so hard to live with a person she has hurt so much, especially when the pain in me is visible. But that she can’t leave because she loves me. So she said anyway. 

Further she told me about her thoughts on infidelity. She says now that she has realized how stupid, teenage-like and immature she has been until now. She never considered flirting with others serious and that it was all just a fun and exciting game to her – especially when nobody knew. She says that she has changed that view a 180 degrees, that she now knows that there are real people involved in all this, the kids, me.
She also said that since I’ve chosen to stay with her, that I need to let it go, which of course is correct and also what I’m doing every single day. Each and every day I work so hard to let it go and just be in the moment. I just can’t plan for a far future when I can’t SEE that she has changed.

It used to be conversations like this we couldn’t have, so I guess that’s some kind of progress. I was able comfort her, which previously has been a challenge to me, because I’ve been in internal turmoil myself. Overall I think it was a good talk we had.

Fast forward to yesterday – copper anniversary. The kids were exited before going to school. Before breakfast we talked about going out for dinner in the evening, and they were thrilled.

Then my wife suddenly announced with great pleasure that she had taken the day off, and that she would like to invite me out for brunch. And so we did while the kids were at school. She also had planned a wedding cake for coffee in the afternoon with the kids, dinner at the restaurant where our wedding party were held and a small ceremony with a lovelock… 
She took me there and presented the lock, told me that she had bought the lock to show me that she would be with me forever. So the idea was to attach the lock to a bridge and throw the keys in the water. Not knowing about this concept I said to her, that we wouldn’t be able to unlock it if we ditched the keys, so I hesitated just a bit. She asked if I was ready or if I wanted to keep my key to the lock? This symbolic moment was SO hard for me, really, it was. But then I thought “what the h***” and dropped the key in the water.

Just in case any of you think “how romantic”, just hold your breath. This is how fvcked up my brain has become. When we were leaving the bridge I thought to myself: “If a full blown wedding ceremony times two, a Vice Mayor, a priest, family and all of our friends as a symbol isn’t enough to keep promises, how’s a lock on a bridge and keys in the water going to change that?” But I was in fact very touched by the moment and years ago I would definitely have believed it meant something, but afterwards I was rationalizing and thinking that it’s nothing significant and that it wouldn’t in any way prevent any of us from cheating or divorce. I really don’t believe in symbols anymore. I didn’t say anything about these thoughts, just to avoid spoiling the moment for my wife.

I thought about all this the rest of the day. I actually think that it was an attempt on her side to show me her commitment – in her own way, which I think is sweet. She also announced our anniversary on FB saying "for better and for worse" and thanked me in public. There were tons of greetings from family and friends, which also touched me - even while at the same time I was thinking “If they only knew”. So I’ve been all over the place, from quiet pleasure to tears, from silent optimism to jaded rationalizations, all in one day. It was a very, very hard day for my introverted mind and I was exhausted in the evening.

A positive thing though. I haven’t been able to say the words “I love you” for a long time now. I show it and say it in a lot of different ways, but not those exact words. I did that yesterday and I could tell that it meant a lot to her. But I also know that she is sad and hurt because the anniversary wasn’t the fairytale she once dreamt of.

Today I’ve got an emotional hangover. I’m not very proud of myself and I realize that I still have work to do though I’m not quite sure how. I believe I love her, I really do, but this isn’t how I would like to be, to live for the rest of my life. Is it even worth it? I thought I was longer processing all this myself - surprise. We’ll never get back to how it was, though it’s what she wants so badly, I don’t.

Sorry ‘bout the ramble, I really needed to get it out there.


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## cpacan

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Please send positive thoughts Matt's way. We've had a rough couple of days, and he's experiencing a lot of negativity tonight.


Here's a dozen of positive thoughts for Mr and MrsM. I know what Matt is going through, or at least I think so, and it's definitely not easy. Sadly, when betrayal hits, there is no one but the "victim" to process it, get through and create a new path - learning, working and deciding not to be a victim.

Thinking of you two.


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## CantSitStill

Thank you for sharing that cpacan
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

It helps me understand how hard this really is for the BS
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Cpacan - I think my husband could have written your previous post pretty much exactly without the conflict of any positive feelings mixed in. I have definitely taught him that marriage is a meaningless construct, that symbols are valueless, and he says all that our counseling with Steve Harley has taught him is that it's easy to be in love with anyone - it's just a manufactured feeling, not special in any way.

I hope your conversation with your wife is a turning point for the two of you in your efforts to build a more positive relationship. I'm sorry for the emotional stress and turmoil you constantly bear.


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## russell28

cpacan said:


> This post is long, but it serves to describe how fvcked up the brain (read: my brain) can be after infidelity. I had a very confusing and exhausting day yesterday, and I was about to post on here for immediate help several times during the day.
> 
> Yesterday was our copper anniversary, 12½ years ago we got married at city hall witnessed only by a couple of close friends, 5 years later we repeated the ceremony in church and threw the party for family and all our friends. We usually think of the first ceremony as the one to celebrate.
> 
> Three-four weeks ago I told her about my tainted memories especially those related to our wedding day(s) and how much it still hurts me to think about the ceremonies vs. the deception 3 years ago. I still don’t wear my ring as a symbol which in turn hurts her. I told her 5-6 months ago that I wasn’t interested in celebrating the copper anniversary with a party, which is partly why we extended our summer vacation.
> 
> We had the discussion again Friday when she said that she had cancelled her gym-session for kids on Monday since it’s her anniversary. I asked what her expectations for Monday would be. She said that maybe we could go out and have dinner together as a family. This talk took a turn when I asked her directly what she had done to change, if she understood what made her betray me and how I was supposed to be safe with her again.
> 
> It’s the first time in years I’ve seen her cry this way, silently and sad. Many things were said, one of them being that she had thought a lot about leaving me, because it’s so hard to live with a person she has hurt so much, especially when the pain in me is visible. But that she can’t leave because she loves me. So she said anyway.
> 
> Further she told me about her thoughts on infidelity. She says now that she has realized how stupid, teenage-like and immature she has been until now. She never considered flirting with others serious and that it was all just a fun and exciting game to her – especially when nobody knew. She says that she has changed that view a 180 degrees, that she now knows that there are real people involved in all this, the kids, me.
> She also said that since I’ve chosen to stay with her, that I need to let it go, which of course is correct and also what I’m doing every single day. Each and every day I work so hard to let it go and just be in the moment. I just can’t plan for a far future when I can’t SEE that she has changed.
> 
> It used to be conversations like this we couldn’t have, so I guess that’s some kind of progress. I was able comfort her, which previously has been a challenge to me, because I’ve been in internal turmoil myself. Overall I think it was a good talk we had.
> 
> Fast forward to yesterday – copper anniversary. The kids were exited before going to school. Before breakfast we talked about going out for dinner in the evening, and they were thrilled.
> 
> Then my wife suddenly announced with great pleasure that she had taken the day off, and that she would like to invite me out for brunch. And so we did while the kids were at school. She also had planned a wedding cake for coffee in the afternoon with the kids, dinner at the restaurant where our wedding party were held and a small ceremony with a lovelock…
> She took me there and presented the lock, told me that she had bought the lock to show me that she would be with me forever. So the idea was to attach the lock to a bridge and throw the keys in the water. Not knowing about this concept I said to her, that we wouldn’t be able to unlock it if we ditched the keys, so I hesitated just a bit. She asked if I was ready or if I wanted to keep my key to the lock? This symbolic moment was SO hard for me, really, it was. But then I thought “what the h***” and dropped the key in the water.
> 
> Just in case any of you think “how romantic”, just hold your breath. This is how fvcked up my brain has become. When we were leaving the bridge I thought to myself: “If a full blown wedding ceremony times two, a Vice Mayor, a priest, family and all of our friends as a symbol isn’t enough to keep promises, how’s a lock on a bridge and keys in the water going to change that?” But I was in fact very touched by the moment and years ago I would definitely have believed it meant something, but afterwards I was rationalizing and thinking that it’s nothing significant and that it wouldn’t in any way prevent any of us from cheating or divorce. I really don’t believe in symbols anymore. I didn’t say anything about these thoughts, just to avoid spoiling the moment for my wife.
> 
> I thought about all this the rest of the day. I actually think that it was an attempt on her side to show me her commitment – in her own way, which I think is sweet. She also announced our anniversary on FB saying "for better and for worse" and thanked me in public. There were tons of greetings from family and friends, which also touched me - even while at the same time I was thinking “If they only knew”. So I’ve been all over the place, from quiet pleasure to tears, from silent optimism to jaded rationalizations, all in one day. It was a very, very hard day for my introverted mind and I was exhausted in the evening.
> 
> A positive thing though. I haven’t been able to say the words “I love you” for a long time now. I show it and say it in a lot of different ways, but not those exact words. I did that yesterday and I could tell that it meant a lot to her. But I also know that she is sad and hurt because the anniversary wasn’t the fairytale she once dreamt of.
> 
> Today I’ve got an emotional hangover. I’m not very proud of myself and I realize that I still have work to do though I’m not quite sure how. I believe I love her, I really do, but this isn’t how I would like to be, to live for the rest of my life. Is it even worth it? I thought I was longer processing all this myself - surprise. We’ll never get back to how it was, though it’s what she wants so badly, I don’t.
> 
> Sorry ‘bout the ramble, I really needed to get it out there.


I feel all of this... I'm right there with you, hang in there.

In NOV it's my 25 year wedding anniversary.. for the last 5 of them (that I know of), my wife has been in an affair.. so while I was buying nice loving cards, she was buying me generic ones and signing them 'love ya'... then running off to her boyfriend or texting him, god knows.. Now I'll probably get something all mushy and sweet... I'll be wondering if I didn't catch them, what she'd really be doing.. It's a challenge to stay in the present, have hope for the future, when they past is hovering over you like a dark cloud.

It'll be my first wedding anniversary since DDay, and I'm a hopeless romantic.. then Christmas, the first time we went on a date was on Christmas 32 years ago... that *was *also special to me.... Now it's just another day.


----------



## Forever Grateful

warlock07 said:


> 1). Why did you not use protection ?
> 
> 2) No way to put it nicely but you knew he finished inside you(not sure why you let it happen with a guy you are not attracted to. This is a huge thing intimacy wise to many couples). So why did you not take any precaution the next day ?
> 
> 3) How many relationships did you have before RTBP ?(Posted something related to this in his original thread)
> 
> 
> (Not looking to attack here)


To question 1 & 2. Not that it matters but I never planned on having sex with him beforehand. Also I was/am on BC it's just that I had a habit of missing pills hence why me and RTBP use a diaphragm with them as well. Also he didn't release inside me every time. RTBP never posted the graphic details so neither will I. But after the deed was done I didn't take anything else because I though I was safe with the BC but apparently I missed them. Yes I know stupid. 

3. Just one BF during my freshman year of college and a three week fling with a guy I liked my sophomore year. The next year was RTBPs freshman year and since I was the only person he knew on campus I showed him around and we became friends and quickly after that FWB. I had a crush on him but he wasn't ready for a relationship at the time. A real relationship started about half a year later though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Can you tell us a bit about your time with RTBP in college ?(him getting kicked out of college, marriage etc)


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## bfree

cpacan,

I know that you don't feel that your wife has shown appropriate remorse but I'll have to be honest with you. What you describe in your post impresses me a lot. Not everyone demonstrates emotion in the same way. Not everyone is overt with their feelings. Maybe your wife is really feeling the remorse and empathy that you need but she just has trouble showing it to you? We often say that words are nice but actions are what really matter. To me your wife just put some seriously impactful action behind some of the words she has probably spoken.


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## cpacan

bfree said:


> cpacan,
> 
> I know that you don't feel that your wife has shown appropriate remorse but I'll have to be honest with you. What you describe in your post impresses me a lot. Not everyone demonstrates emotion in the same way. Not everyone is overt with their feelings. Maybe your wife is really feeling the remorse and empathy that you need but she just has trouble showing it to you? We often say that words are nice but actions are what really matter. To me your wife just put some seriously impactful action behind some of the words she has probably spoken.


That's the only thing that has kept me in this R-game for so long; the possibility that you _could _be right. And like I said; I feel pretty fvcked up sometimes; this crap messes with my head once in a while, and to be completely honest, I don't trust my heart to lead me anymore. That's why I try the mindfull approach these days; to see if I can get a replacement one day.

Regrets and remorse is fine, and it may be what she tried to show me, IDK, but if she doesn't have any idea about why she chose to destroy my happy fantasy life, besides being stupid and immature - it's just hard for me to really _believe _that she has suddenly matured and developed a strong character.

I think it may just boil down to one thing for me, fear of being hurt and humiliated like this again - I know I'll survive it, but yet I fear it. I've tried every tool I know to handle this fear, and maybe I'll get there some day - and when that day comes, it may be too late because I've lost her anyway.

Sorry, I'm just in a bad place these days. Bfree, thanks, I appreciate your outside view and you pointing it out to me.


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## Forever Grateful

warlock07 said:


> Can you tell us a bit about your time with RTBP in college to marriage ?(him getting kicked out of college and all)


Fine I guess. Like we said before we went to the same high school and were aware of one another but we weren't friends, I was two grades high than him.

Going into my junior year he came to my school as a freshman. I was the only one he knew at the time when he first arrived so I showed him around campus and the town. Found out we had many things in common like love of video games, sci-fi, anime, etc we became fast friends and admittedly after a couple of weeks I developed a crush on him. We spent most of our time off campus hanging or in my apartment when my roommates weren't around. 

After a couple of months we became FWB until near the end of the second semester a week or so before finals. RTBP wasn't ready for a serious relationship but I wanted to be with him. During that time period I was never with anyone else but I know he was with at least 4 girls, I didn't really want to know. About a month before we did become exclusive I got jealous and hurt after I snooped and found another girls panties in his dorm closet and didn't talk to him for about 3 weeks. He started chasing after me about he was sorry and how he still wanted to be together. I told him I was tired of being his FWB and that I loved him and wanted a serious official relationship, that it killed me hearing about him with other girls. I didn't say anything before hand because conflict avoidance. So he agree to become an official couple. That day would later be our wedding day.

The roofie thing happened the next fall. It was around mid terms my senior year/his sophomore year. He was a supervisor at his job and it was something to do about an inventory shipment and he would have to work late and couldn't make a party with me. So I just went with some friends. At the party I mostly stuck to group conversations with my girlfriends but occasionally I would separate and talk to other people, one of which was a guy who kept hitting on me. Yes I know stupid, poor boundaries at the time. Well at some point the guy slipped one into my beer and lead me off to a private bedroom. Luckily one of my friends caught it out of the corner of her eye and they all busted in before he could do anything. Some of RTBP's friends were at the party so they got them and they all got me out of there and told him as well. I remember sitting on a couch because I was feeling funny and then the next morning in RTBP's bed in his dorm room. My apartment was off campus his room was closer. RTBP found the guy the next day and then beat the ever loving s--- out of the guy right in the middle of campus. He got suspended from the school for a year but his step dad wanted him to come home but he chose to stay with me so his step day basically cut him off and excommunicated him and his mom went along with it. About 5 months after this his grandmother passed away, so he was very torn up emotionally. He roomed with me until he found his own apartment.

During that time my dad's business was really starting to struggle and they were mostly getting by on my mom's teacher salary. Money was tight and there were plans of me having to come home and forgo the second half of my senior year. RTBP stepped in got a second full time job, moved me into his apartment and shared his car with me after teaching me to drive stick. We all came to an agreement I got to stay and finish school and get my MBA, my parents would pay my tuition and RTBP volunteered to pay for everyday things. Like books, food, clothes, etc.

I wanted to get married while I was in school but RTBP and my parents felt it was best to put it off until after I graduated. So we didn't until a year after I finished and had moved to Chicago where I had been with my previous job for about 7 months. Sunday May 10, 2009 we got married in Jamaica, my parents had since recovered financially. And like I said earlier our wedding day was same day we became a real couple, his idea by the way. Once we got back we moved out of our apartment in the city and bought a house with some help bought our current house in the southern suburbs with some or a lot of help from my parents. Thats basically us up until we were married....


Had to hop on the computer for this post. No way in hell I was going to type all that on a iPad.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> That's the only thing that has kept me in this R-game for so long; the possibility that you _could _be right. And like I said; I feel pretty fvcked up sometimes; this crap messes with my head once in a while, and to be completely honest, I don't trust my heart to lead me anymore. That's why I try the mindfull approach these days; to see if I can get a replacement one day.
> 
> Regrets and remorse is fine, and it may be what she tried to show me, IDK, but if she doesn't have any idea about why she chose to destroy my happy fantasy life, besides being stupid and immature - it's just hard for me to really _believe _that she has suddenly matured and developed a strong character.
> 
> I think it may just boil down to one thing for me, fear of being hurt and humiliated like this again - I know I'll survive it, but yet I fear it. I've tried every tool I know to handle this fear, and maybe I'll get there some day - and when that day comes, it may be too late because I've lost her anyway.
> 
> Sorry, I'm just in a bad place these days. Bfree, thanks, I appreciate your outside view and you pointing it out to me.


I can't remember if she has she done any counseling? Some people don't trust counselors though. Had she read any books? Talked with trusted friends or religious leaders? Basically has she done any self exploration to find out why get boundaries were so porous? Maybe that's your issue. That you don't feel safe.


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## cpacan

bfree said:


> I can't remember if she has she done any counseling? Some people don't trust counselors though. Had she read any books? Talked with trusted friends or religious leaders? Basically has she done any self exploration to find out why get boundaries were so porous? Maybe that's your issue. That you don't feel safe.


No counselling, no books, no friends besides a toxic BFF who supported her cheating and cheated herself.

She is very, very, very good at pretending and acting as if nothing is wrong - unless she feels that I've hurt her too much in an argument.

I believe you're right.


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## warlock07

FG, Do you have any guilt associated with the roofie incident?


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## Forever Grateful

warlock07 said:


> FG, Do you have any guilt associated with the roofie incident?


Yes I do. I have a lot actually, I should've never went to that party without him. I often wonder what if.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare

Forever Grateful said:


> Yes I do. I have a lot actually, I should've never went to that party without him. I often wonder what if.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


that's quite a story. At least the guy didn't go unpunished. school kicked RTBP out but did the school take action against the guy that slipped you the drug?? e.g. attempted rape??


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## Forever Grateful

nuclearnightmare said:


> that's quite a story. At least the guy didn't go unpunished. school kicked RTBP out but did the school take action against the guy that slipped you the drug?? e.g. attempted rape??


RTBP wasn't kicked out of school, he was suspended for a year and he couldn't afford to return after he had been cut off. Roofie guy WAS expelled. And last we heard he is now a registered sex offender for something he did a few years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

cpacan said:


> No counselling, no books, no friends besides a toxic BFF who supported her cheating and cheated herself.
> 
> She is very, very, very good at pretending and acting as if nothing is wrong - unless she feels that I've hurt her too much in an argument.
> 
> I believe you're right.


Have you talked to her about counseling? Have you mentioned your concerns about the possibility that she will cheat again? Have you said that the counseling would reassure you and make you feel safe to let your guard down and begin trusting her again?


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## nuclearnightmare

Refuse to be played said:


> I'm very much aware of what she has done. We've talked more than once about what she done, down to the fine details. The painful details of her A that I have not and will not share here. More time away wasn't really necessary. I know perfectly well my position in this. I COULD walk away. I would make out quite well in fact. I'd finish school collect alimony and live the single bachelor life in one of the biggest cities in the US. I'm young, with a bright future ahead of me and I'm in the best shape of my life. My ego and self-esteem are intact enough to know I'd have no problem getting women. I KNOW I'D BE MORE THAN GOOD, I'D BE GREAT! Right now I CHOOSE to go a different way and give her a chance.
> 
> And this happened in my old thread as well. People thinking she is some master manipulator or something. I keep having to bring this up...if she could've hid her guilt, compartmentalize it, or rationalize it she would have gotten away with it and I would have NEVER known. How could I?
> 
> 
> 
> She has answer this question...to me. She has given me a (granted undetailed) version of why she believes she did it and she has been working in IC on it as well. At some point soon I'm suppose to go with her to her IC session and then in front of the counselor she'll explain fully how she allowed herself to do what she did. Believe it or not she hasn't been the one that hesitant to discuss this and other crap about the A, thats usually me.
> 
> And she hasn't *not* tried to answer the question by the way. I believe you're the first to out right ask her why. I told FG that I don't care whether or not she answers here.





*More time away wasn't really necessary. I know perfectly well my position in this.* sorry, cannot buy that at all. what she did would severely rock the foundation of any husband's love, or pride. Disturb the hell out of them. No way that a couple weeks is enough time to sort through something like that. Not for you, not for anyone. That's a mistake I see you and many other BS make, starting a "reconciliation" WAY too soon after DDay. Whether to D or to R has to be decided with a much clearer head, surely.


*And this happened in my old thread as well. People thinking she is some master manipulator or something. I keep having to bring this up...if she could've hid her guilt, compartmentalize it, or rationalize it she would have gotten away with it and I would have NEVER known. How could I? * Moving back in with her threw your thinking back into the emotional realm......I think you need to process things more objectively, more rationally. That's how you'll come to the best possible decision on what to do. You never gave yourself time to do that, and you have no chance of doing that while she's so close to you. 
And BTW did you say you were in IC yourself? You need your own IC, separate from her's. You've gone through some major trauma in the last 6 months. You need professional help to deal with it effectively.


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## Refuse to be played

nuclearnightmare said:


> *More time away wasn't really necessary. I know perfectly well my position in this.* sorry, cannot buy that at all. what she did would severely rock the foundation of any husband's love, or pride. Disturb the hell out of them. No way that a couple weeks is enough time to sort through something like that. Not for you, not for anyone. That's a mistake I see you and many other BS make, starting a "reconciliation" WAY too soon after DDay. Whether to D or to R has to be decided with a much clearer head, surely.
> 
> But separation like that is what someone does if they are trying to detach right? Yes I'm back home but it isn't like I can't change my mind later.
> 
> 
> *And this happened in my old thread as well. People thinking she is some master manipulator or something. I keep having to bring this up...if she could've hid her guilt, compartmentalize it, or rationalize it she would have gotten away with it and I would have NEVER known. How could I? * Moving back in with her threw your thinking back into the emotional realm......I think you need to process things more objectively, more rationally. That's how you'll come to the best possible decision on what to do. You never gave yourself time to do that, and you have no chance of doing that while she's so close to you.
> And BTW did you say you were in IC yourself? You need your own IC, separate from her's. You've gone through some major trauma in the last 6 months. You need professional help to deal with it effectively.


Trust me...my thinking was pretty emotional when I was away as well. And yes I have my own IC and FG has her own IC. We see someone else for MC as well. Yes I went through some major trauma recently at her hand, hence why I have the IC going (for that and other stuff that goes as far back as 15 yrs ago). I'm reserving the right to leave should I feel I can't come to terms with what she did. Like I said if I'm still conflicted by the time I graduate (Dec 2014) then I walk away.


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## CantSitStill

When a BS finds out that they are about to lose their spouse for another man or woman.. they go into fight mode and do all they can to get their spouse back. If they do come back the next step is the hysterical bonding. It's like a honeymoon in a sense. Well after a few months or more they go thru the anger stageand That is when they think to themselves"my spouse betrated me! Why". "How can I trust them again?". Ok then the ups and downs make your mind go back forth whether you feel they are worth staying with. You wondern they feel i
id they will do it again...for years you are afraid to trust them. One day you decide you are over it an move forward, then it could be the next day or two that you are questioning yourself out of fear that they either areack back to talking to the affair partner. So many crazy thoughts always wondering if their spouse is being honest. I myself wish calvin would get VARs, check phone records and give me a lie detector.
I do understand the crazy triggers, whether it's seeing their company truck or a song on the radio and my gosh a lot of infidelity on tv. I truly honestly feel I have healed from my immature stupidity of what I did. I just wish I never did this to him. It is so unfair that he has to deal with this daily! My fault and I feel at a loss to fix or help him. It will happen when it happens, so I will stick by him and stay patient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Sorry that last post was hard to read with all the mixed up sentences and typos..it is not easy usinf the touch screen keyboard on my phone. I literally cannot see what I typed till I'm finished.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

CSS, thanks for the post. I also believe you have learned from it, you prove it daily here. And I understand that no one can ask anything more, since no guarantees are given in life. But seeking to understand ones choices is a long way.
Best wishes for you and Calvin. You are good people.


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## Decorum

Hi everyone.

I feel like if I dont check in once in a while I will lose my membership. 

I dont post here very often, but I read this thread all the time.

The pain, the support, ups and downs, I admire what goes on here.

It keeps me coming back to TAM, it also keeps me from becoming cynical ha ha.

RTBP, As I recall you have a picture of yourself on a horse.

Do you ride regularly? 

I have a daughter (my youngest) that will be riding as a freshman at her university.


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## jupiter13

There is something off subject. To my question of the what were the true nature of intimate acts between you and the OW?

WH tells me, "there was nothing intimate there it was like paying a hooker without the paying part. just a ****ing hole to get a nut."

Am I to really believe this? I'm having a hard time with it since he had always said, "he was not the kind of man that could just **** someone and not get attached. He needs an emotional connection to get off and then he would always care about that person." 
Is this making someone minimizing the relationship they had?
Is this telling me something he thinks I would like to hear?
I'm confused again. I don't believe it how can you f!!k someone over and over again and have no feelings for them?


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Sorry that last post was hard to read with all the mixed up sentences and typos..it is not easy usinf the touch screen keyboard on my phone. I literally cannot see what I typed till I'm finished.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Were're doing pretty good,trust still has a ways to go but I guess thats normal.
CSS has been cleaning a womans house a couple times a week,I did'nt think much of
It til yesterday when it hit me that its possible she could be talking the the homeless loser.
I doubt it very much but crap like that can get stuck in your head.
She doesnt want me to ask the lady if CSS has been ver to her house,
CSS says if the lady found out about her A it would crush her,I guess thats true.
Anyway we keep mving forward together,I dont believe I have anything to wory about.
Were're pretty good.
Have a nice day all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lisab0105

nuclearnightmare said:


> *More time away wasn't really necessary. I know perfectly well my position in this.* sorry, cannot buy that at all. what she did would severely rock the foundation of any husband's love, or pride. Disturb the hell out of them. No way that a couple weeks is enough time to sort through something like that. Not for you, not for anyone. That's a mistake I see you and many other BS make, starting a "reconciliation" WAY too soon after DDay. Whether to D or to R has to be decided with a much clearer head, surely.
> 
> 
> *And this happened in my old thread as well. People thinking she is some master manipulator or something. I keep having to bring this up...if she could've hid her guilt, compartmentalize it, or rationalize it she would have gotten away with it and I would have NEVER known. How could I? * Moving back in with her threw your thinking back into the emotional realm......I think you need to process things more objectively, more rationally. That's how you'll come to the best possible decision on what to do. You never gave yourself time to do that, and you have no chance of doing that while she's so close to you.
> And BTW did you say you were in IC yourself? You need your own IC, separate from her's. You've gone through some major trauma in the last 6 months. You need professional help to deal with it effectively.


I don't agree with this at all. I think if you are going to try and work it out with your Wayward, IMO distance is the last thing that should happen. Mind you, there isn't a text book solution to how someone is supposed to determine if reconciliation is in the cards, but I don't think for a second Refuse came home too early. I believe for a R to work, you have to hit the ground running. Distance isn't going to help. 

Refuse and FG are doing what works for them, it isn't for you to "buy". What may work for you isn't what works for them. 
And trying to undermine their progress, even if it is just with an opinion, isn't necessary. 

Considering what has happened between them, I think they are doing tremendous work so far.


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## bfree

calvin said:


> Were're doing pretty good,trust still has a ways to go but I guess thats normal.
> CSS has been cleaning a womans house a couple times a week,I did'nt think much of
> It til yesterday when it hit me that its possible she could be talking the the homeless loser.
> I doubt it very much but crap like that can get stuck in your head.
> She doesnt want me to ask the lady if CSS has been ver to her house,
> CSS says if the lady found out about her A it would crush her,I guess thats true.
> Anyway we keep mving forward together,I dont believe I have anything to wory about.
> Were're pretty good.
> Have a nice day all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


calvin,

My first instinct is to say that CSS will not talk to him again. CSS will not cheat on you again. But I know first hand that saying it, knowing it and feeling it deep down are different things. No matter how much your conscious brain knows that she won't talk to him again or cheat on you its that nagging little voice in the back of your mind that just won't let go. Is there a way she can prove to you that she is where she says she is. Maybe take a timestamped picture in the lady's house? Does her phone have a GPS? You could verify her whereabouts that way. There has to be a way to help you to put a muzzle on that little voice.


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## bfree

lisab0105 said:


> I don't agree with this at all. I think if you are going to try and work it out with your Wayward, IMO distance is the last thing that should happen. Mind you, there isn't a text book solution to how someone is supposed to determine if reconciliation is in the cards, but I don't think for a second Refuse came home too early. I believe for a R to work, you have to hit the ground running. Distance isn't going to help.
> 
> Refuse and FG are doing what works for them, it isn't for you to "buy". What may work for you isn't what works for them.
> And trying to undermine their progress, even if it is just with an opinion, isn't necessary.
> 
> Considering what has happened between them, I think they are doing tremendous work so far.


I agree with you Lisa. Although separation has worked for some in the past (rookie comes to mind) I believe that being together and working through issues together is the best way of rebuilding trust and ensuring a successful reconciliation.


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## bfree

jupiter13 said:


> There is something off subject. To my question of the what were the true nature of intimate acts between you and the OW?
> 
> WH tells me, "there was nothing intimate there it was like paying a hooker without the paying part. just a ****ing hole to get a nut."
> 
> Am I to really believe this? I'm having a hard time with it since he had always said, "he was not the kind of man that could just **** someone and not get attached. He needs an emotional connection to get off and then he would always care about that person."
> Is this making someone minimizing the relationship they had?
> Is this telling me something he thinks I would like to hear?
> I'm confused again. I don't believe it how can you f!!k someone over and over again and have no feelings for them?


My response is not really going to give you any new insight but I didn't want to leave this hanging out there.

When I caught my ex wife cheating the reason I got was because the sex was better than with me and that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have had to find other ones to go to bed with. Now while that certainly didn't help my ego and damaged me beyond belief it does go to show that she was just in it for the sex. After we divorced she continued to see some of the guys (and add new ones) but she never settled down with any of them nor did her relationship with any of them evolve into something more tangible. Fact is that she never remarried, had a few very short LTRs but in the end she was and is alone (and bitter.)

Take it for what its worth.


----------



## russell28

bfree said:


> calvin,
> 
> My first instinct is to say that CSS will not talk to him again. CSS will not cheat on you again. But I know first hand that saying it, knowing it and feeling it deep down are different things. No matter how much your conscious brain knows that she won't talk to him again or cheat on you its that nagging little voice in the back of your mind that just won't let go. Is there a way she can prove to you that she is where she says she is. Maybe take a timestamped picture in the lady's house? Does her phone have a GPS? You could verify her whereabouts that way. There has to be a way to help you to put a muzzle on that little voice.


My wife cleans houses on the side, and she used to send me a photo of the house, and I'd have gps.. and she'd text and/or call.. so the gps tells you that she's at location A, not what she's doing at location A.. or that her phone is there, she's not..... that's all it tells you. A photo, also not telling you much, just that she's at some house that's not yours.. 

I think you need to ask yourself more about things like, is the deception still going on or is this person with you 100%.. your head has lied before, about the A while your heart was telling you something is up. Don't listen to your brain, it's not thinking clear.. go with your gut, it was right before and you didn't listen if you're anything like me..

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid

-Buffalo Springfield


----------



## Forever Grateful

Decorum said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I feel like if I dont check in once in a while I will lose my membership.
> 
> I dont post here very often, but I read this thread all the time.
> 
> The pain, the support, ups and downs, I admire what goes on here.
> 
> It keeps me coming back to TAM, it also keeps me from becoming cynical ha ha.
> 
> RTBP, As I recall you have a picture of yourself on a horse.
> 
> Do you ride regularly?
> 
> I have a daughter (my youngest) that will be riding as a freshman at her university.


I took that picture on a trip to Peru. RTBP has done it a couple of times but nowhere near regularly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Refuse to be played said:


> Trust me...my thinking was pretty emotional when I was away as well. And yes I have my own IC and FG has her own IC. We see someone else for MC as well. Yes I went through some major trauma recently at her hand, hence why I have the IC going (for that and other stuff that goes as far back as 15 yrs ago). I'm reserving the right to leave should I feel I can't come to terms with what she did. Like I said if I'm still conflicted by the time I graduate (Dec 2014) then I walk away.


OK RTBP. Having your own separate counselor will provide you with an objective viewpoint in and of itself. I do think you're handling this pretty well overall.

I believe that in the vast majorty of infidelity cases on TAM - and I've read a lot of them - divorce is the best solution. Best for the BS and best for their kids, if they have them. So it's no small thing for me to say that, having read FG's account of what happened, I think you guys may one of the exceptions. Obviously I don't know what will happen, ultimately, with you and her. But she appears sincere, does not seem like a fundamentally mean person nor one that is particularly selfish. she is 'broken' in certain ways but may be fixable.
Good luck RTBP


----------



## Decorum

Forever Grateful said:


> I took that picture on a trip to Peru. RTBP has done it a couple of times but nowhere near regularly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is a beautiful spot, maybe I should have known there was nothing like it on Lake Michigan ha ha.

Thank you FG. I am rooting, hoping, praying for you guys.


Actually FG your story has had me thinking for a couple days, and oddly enough I was thinking about posting a thread on TAM this morning, about a question it raises for me. ( but yes I followed my likes here first, ha ha).

I know this might be TAM hearsay and Politically Incorrect all in one but maybe I will put it here first as a general question.


I hesitate to take up precious posting space or attention here but EI gave me a coupon and I don't want it to expire. 


*Are some formerly wayward wives digging too deep?*


I am only thinking this in a small number of situations but yours is one of them Forever Grateful. I have wondered this for some time in the back of my mind but your story brought it front and center.


There is a saying "If you can get in their heads you can get in their pants". (Its a vile statement but it makes me wonder)

It seems sometimes that if a man can establish dominance over a woman and makes a physical pass at her she will allow it to proceed to sex.

Even against her better judgment. 

Almost as a hardwired response to his dominance.

A woman often needs a connection to a man to have sex with him.
If male dominance is established in a non sexual way (say at work by a male boss) and is thereafter pushed into a sexual context, (he made a pass at her), then she will have a preexisting connection that she failed to recognize the danger of, and that was not overtly sexual originally but becomes so at the moment of temptation and failure.

If so than digging and digging and digging with an IC will not yield a significant vein of gold.

This because it is a boundary issue (the place of failure) and a hardwired response.

I don't want to think of a woman as being so vulnerable at that point (but I almost do) and I don't think it means she is a weak person or without personal standards.

In fact I think she may even be a strong person with high standards, and still be caught off guard by her yielding to another man.

This portrays her on some level and to some measure as an unprotected, vulnerable, perhaps naïve (to her potential to fall in this way), woman.
(please don't hate on me, )

Often they cheat once and confess it to their husbands, if the marriage is good, but sometimes once the affair starts its very hard to stop.

So my thought to the BS is "There is no reason beyond this, she was not prepared for this, she did not intend for it to happen, she knows it now, she is very unlikely to ever fall to this again". Strengthen her/your boundary awareness, and take some reassurance that cheating is actually out of character for her/you.

I'm sure there are numerous scenarios that lead to cheating, I am just asking about this one.

I am not trying to excuse something or minimize the BS's suffering.

It's an honest question and I would appreciate any replies.

Take care everyone!


----------



## Forever Grateful

Got a great night planned out for RTBP. My surprise I ordered for him just got in. I'm so excited for tonight I'm literally shaking! Can't wait for RTBP to get home! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

bfree said:


> I agree with you Lisa. Although separation has worked for some in the past (rookie comes to mind) I believe that being together and working through issues together is the best way of rebuilding trust and ensuring a successful reconciliation.



Lisa, Bfree:
what I mean though is a temporary, short-term separation right aftyer DDay. 2 months, say. Just because I think some level of detachment from the WS is necessary so the BS can make the best decision on how to proceed (D, R, or longer-term legal separation etc.). Ideally the BS will have opportunity to confide in friends or family during this time so they're not going through the process in isolation.

but yes if BS then decides to reconcile, getting back together is a must.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



nuclearnightmare said:


> Lisa, Bfree:
> what I mean though is a temporary, short-term separation right aftyer DDay. 2 months, say. Just because I think some level of detachment from the WS is necessary so the BS can make the best decision on how to proceed (D, R, or longer-term legal separation etc.). Ideally the BS will have opportunity to confide in friends or family during this time so they're not going through the process in isolation.
> 
> but yes if BS then decides to reconcile, getting back together is a must.


But doesn't that ignore the obvious triggering and ultra mind movies that the BS would have due to the separation? I would think having at least some proximity to the WS would be somewhat reassuring.


----------



## warlock07

Forever Grateful said:


> Yes I do. I have a lot actually, I should've never went to that party without him. I often wonder what if.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You mentioned RTBP and your parents shared financial responsibilities...

How long did RTBP support you ? How important was his financial support until your parent's came good ?

(It was very important but I would have scraped by through other means/It did help with the living conditions but it wasn't absolute necessary/It was absolutely critical to me completing my degree)

(not a guilt trip question if you are wondering)


----------



## Forever Grateful

warlock07 said:


> You mentioned RTBP and your parents shared financial responsibilities...
> 
> How long did RTBP support you ? How important was his financial support until your parent's came good ?
> 
> (It was very important but I would have scraped by through other means/It did help with the living conditions but it wasn't absolute necessary/It was absolutely critical to me completing my degree)
> 
> (not a guilt trip question if you are wondering)


From the second semester of my senior year until a months after I earned my MBA and got hired. So a little around 3 years. Yes his help was very important, my parents could only afford my tuition payments and and give me a few hundred dollars every once in a while. I could have got a part time job to help but RTBP wanted me to focus on school. Everything else he provide, I didn't even have a car any more, we shared his. I would drop him off and pick him up to and from work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

bfree said:


> But doesn't that ignore the obvious triggering and ultra mind movies that the BS would have due to the separation? I would think having at least some proximity to the WS would be somewhat reassuring.


I'm not sure whether triggering/movies would occur more with WS around or with them absent (i.e. wouldn't sight of the WS trigger the BS more than absence of?). I see you are a BS (yes?). what was your experience? 

I think of the detachment as being more important, in any case. I assume the BS is in turmoil either way


----------



## calvin

nuclearnightmare said:


> I'm not sure whether triggering/movies would occur more with WS around or with them absent (i.e. wouldn't sight of the WS trigger the BS more than absence of?). I see you are a BS (yes?). what was your experience?
> 
> I think of the detachment as being more important, in any case. I assume the BS is in turmoil either way


All though CSS did not get physical with the AP she did meet with him four times,each time was five to ten minutes in a K Mart parking lot during the day,we were only seperated for a little under a week.
I wanted her home,needed her home to gauge how serious she was about us repairing us,also for me to "read" her.
Was she being truthful? Was she still seeing him behind my back?
I think it depends on the couple,the length of the A and how far the A went.
In my case the AP was dangerous,I also wanted to make sure she was safe and in a place were the POS would not try to get to her.
The AP did threaten me,my kids and even raping CSS.
I think since they didnt have sex in HS that he was pretty made that I blew up his plans.
So I really think it depends on the couple and the circumstances.
Hope that made sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Decorum said:


> It is a beautiful spot, maybe I should have known there was nothing like it on Lake Michigan ha ha.
> 
> Thank you FG. I am rooting, hoping, praying for you guys.
> 
> 
> Actually FG your story has had me thinking for a couple days, and oddly enough I was thinking about posting a thread on TAM this morning, about a question it raises for me. ( but yes I followed my likes here first, ha ha).
> 
> I know this might be TAM hearsay and Politically Incorrect all in one but maybe I will put it here first as a general question.
> 
> 
> I hesitate to take up precious posting space or attention here but EI gave me a coupon and I don't want it to expire.
> 
> 
> *Are some formerly wayward wives digging too deep?*
> 
> 
> I am only thinking this in a small number of situations but yours is one of them Forever Grateful. I have wondered this for some time in the back of my mind but your story brought it front and center.
> 
> 
> There is a saying "If you can get in their heads you can get in their pants". (Its a vile statement but it makes me wonder)
> 
> It seems sometimes that if a man can establish dominance over a woman and makes a physical pass at her she will allow it to proceed to sex.
> 
> Even against her better judgment.
> 
> Almost as a hardwired response to his dominance.
> 
> A woman often needs a connection to a man to have sex with him.
> If male dominance is established in a non sexual way (say at work by a male boss) and is thereafter pushed into a sexual context, (he made a pass at her), then she will have a preexisting connection that she failed to recognize the danger of, and that was not overtly sexual originally but becomes so at the moment of temptation and failure.
> 
> If so than digging and digging and digging with an IC will not yield a significant vein of gold.
> 
> This because it is a boundary issue (the place of failure) and a hardwired response.
> 
> I don't want to think of a woman as being so vulnerable at that point (but I almost do) and I don't think it means she is a weak person or without personal standards.
> 
> In fact I think she may even be a strong person with high standards, and still be caught off guard by her yielding to another man.
> 
> This portrays her on some level and to some measure as an unprotected, vulnerable, perhaps naïve (to her potential to fall in this way), woman.
> (please don't hate on me, )
> 
> Often they cheat once and confess it to their husbands, if the marriage is good, but sometimes once the affair starts its very hard to stop.
> 
> So my thought to the BS is "There is no reason beyond this, she was not prepared for this, she did not intend for it to happen, she knows it now, she is very unlikely to ever fall to this again". Strengthen her/your boundary awareness, and take some reassurance that cheating is actually out of character for her/you.
> 
> I'm sure there are numerous scenarios that lead to cheating, I am just asking about this one.
> 
> I am not trying to excuse something or minimize the BS's suffering.
> 
> It's an honest question and I would appreciate any replies.
> 
> Take care everyone!


Decorum,

Coupons never expire on this thread and you know that your input is always valuable and appreciated here. 

And, this thread is notorious for not being TC (TAM Correct.) But, that's the beauty of it, isn't it? 

I read your question and my first thought was that no, a woman would not be vulnerable to having sex with just ANY man who makes a physical pass at her. But, that's not what you said, is it? So, it made me think. Although the scenario that you're describing was NOT a factor in my situation, it might have been one in FG's. Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "establish dominance?" I understand the definition of the word, but just indulge me, please. Do you mean that he is in a position of authority, like an employer, boss, teacher, etc.? 

I'm going to tell this as gently as I can. When my marriage had reached the breaking point, after I had been trying everything in my power to "have an affair with my husband," I was in the best physical shape of my adult life. I had literally told my therapist a few years before that I wanted to 'have an affair with my husband'..... That comment is still noted in my IC notes. The first thing I set about doing was to "work on me," emotionally and physically, so that I could present my best possible self to my husband in order to jump start our dying marriage. This was something that I did over the course of a few years time. But, the more effort that I put into bridging the ever-widening gap between us, the more B1 sought to increase the distance between us. His apathy towards me began to turn into hostility. Anyway, we know THAT effort didn't go over well. It's been a long and winding road these last several years, the last few in particular. As a result, though, I was in the sexual prime of my life, feeling good and looking as good as I possibly could (within the limits of what God gave me.) But, I was becoming very bitter, angry and resentful towards B1. It led to a tremendous amount of frustration for me. B1 wasn't looking at me and he wasn't acknowledging my efforts, not in a positive way. 

So, men are dogs, (sorry men ) and all of the tension between B1 and me was not lost on the people in our inner circle. Men started coming on to me. The husband of a very close friend of mine, B1's aunt's ex-husband, a life-long acquaintance at a wedding, another at a funeral, a man we used to attend church with, and our son's occupational therapist all made some very overt sexual advances towards me. The thing is, they ALL knew that I was married and one was close enough to us to know that our marriage was in trouble (my friend's husband.) It truly disgusted me..... I know, that sounds like a lot of bull coming from a WS, but it's the truth. It really turned me off when a man, who knew that I was married, made a pass at me. And, it really infuriated me if he knew that my marriage was in trouble. If I had respect for any of these men before, I lost it at that point. I saw them as low-life opportunists. Ironically, I thought, if nothing else, B1 would see this and that it would bring out those 'cave-man, protect your territory instincts' that all men are supposed to have around their wives. I always let him know when men made passes at me. It did not help our situation that his response was something along the lines of "What do you want me to do about it?," followed by him doing nothing. That hurt me greatly. That was all within a year, or so, of the beginning of my EA/PA. Sometimes, I believe that whole experience was a contributing factor in opening the door to allow me to feel that I was, somehow, justified in seeking validation and companionship elsewhere. But, please understand, I couldn't feel more different about that today. It is and will remain my greatest regret. There are no words to, adequately, describe the shame, guilt, heartbreak and remorse I feel over the choices that I made to lie, deceive and betray my husband and my family. I was vulnerable, I desperately needed validation, but the willingness of these men to "validate" me was not wanted or appreciated. I needed that love and validation from B1.

When I did decide to seek companionship outside of my marriage, I chose and pursued the man, he did not pursue me. He wasn't married. Again, I know there is a lot of irony in this, but I wouldn't have chosen to have a relationship with a married man because I couldn't respect a man who would be unfaithful to his wife.  And, I wanted a man who could devote himself exclusively to me. Of course, I can now clearly see the "F"up-ed-ness in that thinking. But, in my mind, at that time, I had completely detached from B1 and my marriage. I no longer 'felt' married. In hindsight, I realized that what I wasn't willing to do (have an affair with a married AP) is exactly what I pressured him in to doing. There is just NO POSSIBLE GOOD THAT CAN COME FROM SOMETHING THAT IS SO WRONG ON SO MANY LEVELS. My 'relationship' with him turned both of us into individuals that we could not respect. We could respect neither ourselves or one another. I had become just as disgusting as all of those men that I had abhorred. And, my AP was having a relationship with THAT person (me.) YUK..... When you have knowingly reduced yourself to a lower level it becomes a necessity to "accept" all of the other seedy aspects infidelity; the lying, the deceiving, the actual betrayal..... What's one more sin on a pile so high that you can't even see where it begins and where it ends, right? All of that adds up to what I think is "the fog." It's the only way to survive in that kind of an ongoing existence. You know it's ALL wrong, but it feels so right, so you justify, justify, justify. And the gaslighting, oh my. But, I wasn't gaslighting B1. He wasn't paying enough attention to me to notice that anything was amiss. I was gaslighting myself. If you were moral, sane, and logical before this began, you have to. Normalcy cannot survive in this environment. 

I've taken this post a lot deeper than I intended to (who knew?) These are just some examples of how destructive something like this can be for the WS. I know it doesn't address the devastation and heartache it causes the BS. But, I can only, personally, share my experience and what I observe from my own BS. I look back and just shake my head. 

But, Decorum, if you could, would you explain how you think a man might establish dominance over a woman. I think anything that causes someone to think, dig deeper or understand themselves, or their partner, could be one step closer to healing. I think that I am concluding what I have suspected all along. People are different, they have affairs for different reasons and cannot all be lumped into one category. Therefore, what works for one couple in R might be just the opposite of what works for another. R isn't for everyone. R will never work unless both spouses are 100% committed to the process. Even then, it will likely be the most difficult and challenging thing that you will ever do in your life. But, it could also end up being the most rewarding.


----------



## bfree

nuclearnightmare said:


> I'm not sure whether triggering/movies would occur more with WS around or with them absent (i.e. wouldn't sight of the WS trigger the BS more than absence of?). I see you are a BS (yes?). what was your experience?
> 
> I think of the detachment as being more important, in any case. I assume the BS is in turmoil either way


I never got the chance to even consider R. I was essentially waylayed and stabbed in the heart so that was that as they say.

But from what I've read if the BS cares even a little about the WS or has even the slightest thought of R they tend to trigger more when they are alone or away from their spouse. For instance, I've heard and read that many BS's trigger a lot driving in their cars to and from work. This is because they aren't busy doing something and their thoughts spin out of control and they spiral into a panic. I would think that would happen even more if the BS is separated from their spouse for an extended length of time.


----------



## CantSitStill

Bfree that is so true that they trigger when in the car or when they have time to sit and think and analyze and wonder. It has been rough for calvin this week since I've been doing that cleaning job. He wonders if I really am cleanin for someone. Anyway, I just got a call that I got a job at a daycare. I am so excited! I go in tomorrow for paperwork and stuff. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Congratulations, CSS!!


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Bfree that is so true that they trigger when in the car or when they have time to sit and think and analyze and wonder. It has been rough for calvin this week since I've been doing that cleaning job. He wonders if I really am cleanin for someone. Anyway, I just got a call that I got a job at a daycare. I am so excited! I go in tomorrow for paperwork and stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I did but things to continue in the right direction for us.
As you can tell,very proud of CSS right now.
Crap,things are really clicking for the fam lately!
My Daughter,my son,CSS and of course us.
Things look good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

GF and I did our joint therapy and discussed the dreaded intimacy issues bomb. It got a bit emotional, but it was all right. (This therapist is a big fan of the "let's start with a clean slate" stuff. Well, all righty then, but I think we're both going to have to try really hard with that one!) We had dinner afterwards and talked some things out (sometimes it seems like we have our most productive discussions AFTER therapy, LOL). We still have rough spots sometimes, or misunderstand each other, but we're getting better with our communication, handling mishaps, and with not hurting each other. We're happy with where we are, and we've both grown a lot. GF has also finished telling her family that we're back together! 

Last night, she said that she loves me more than anything. 

Of course, this is still a work-in-progress, and shall remain so.


----------



## CantSitStill

We also had a lot of good talks after therapy..glad things are looking up for you soulpotato
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Let me say at the outset that what I have posited is a bit on the side of a reductionist approach.

Reductionism can lead to being idealistic; it is my native thought process so I can fall into that trap at times. I don’t want to inflict that error on anyone else, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 


Here are my assumptions.
1. Men and woman are different. Emotionally and cognitively. 
In some measure in most instances. 

2. Men’s and woman’s differences correspond to each other. 
Men and woman correspond to each other emotionally and cognitively in a way like (simile) their bodies correspond physically/sexually.

3. Women desire (out on a limb here) a man’s leadership and willingly (give me a break here) submit to it, at least they desire it. Having a formerly passive husband yourself EI, (FPH ) I don’t expect an argument from you here. Btw the exception confirms the rule.

4. This correspondence of the inner person between men and women, is hardwired in each sex and is a natural role, something they can do without conscious thought.

When a woman relates to a man in authority this way as a natural response he is in a superior position.(Btw superior position calls for superior responsibility.)

If this is a boss she might relate to him without any sexual intent. Say a father figure (there is a feeling of security in that, if she had a good father). 

When the boss pushed the boundary into a sexual context she already has a submissive attitude toward him, a deeper connection than just an acquaintance, if he has been suggestive in some ways, even if she is uncomfortable with it, when she is touched she may have a sexual response in her libido because of the prior connection. 

It may feel weird, strange, etc.. yet she may let herself be used. She may not understand why she has a sensual reaction to this man, she will be confused, and her conflict has a polarizing effect on her inhibitions.

The most despicable crimes on earth are those done by someone in a position of authority that used that position to exploit those under them. Family, business, church, etc. Do I have to be specific here?

Dominance may be too strong a word, but the concept is at the heart of my question. It’s what I am trying to put my finger on.
It is a connection that is exploited.

It is that trusted position of respect that allows a woman to let her guard down and then it is pushed into a confusing sexual context. So that the woman can truly say “I don’t know why I allowed it, I was not even attracted to him.”

I think this can be true even if the affair goes on for a while.

I may be wrong but FG story seems to be of that kind to me.

That is why I said that understanding that a position and role was exploited might be deep enough, because at that point it is a boundary awareness issue and not some character flaw that issued from some deep psychological problem. 

It truly may be out of character for her, even though she has fallen to it. (There is no doubt in my mind that under the right circumstances I could cheat, even though I have avoided every opportunity I have had.) (But that was B.T. Before TAM, I had no idea in my younger years how devastating it is)

I am not trying to troll provoke anyone here, please believe that.
I don’t stick with long term discussions anyway, ha ha.



EI said:


> Decorum,
> I think that I am concluding what I have suspected all along. People are different, they have affairs for different reasons and cannot all be lumped into one category.


I think we agree on this, there is not one category.(But I think you have to allow for some general categories based on reoccurring patterns in terms of needs and motivations that led up to an affair. 

I’ll stop there, let me know if I addressed your question in a way that makes sense.

Thank you EI for putting so much into you post, I appreciate the opportunity to understand your story better.

Take care!


----------



## StarGazer101

CantSitStill said:


> Bfree that is so true that they trigger when in the car or when they have time to sit and think and analyze and wonder. It has been rough for calvin this week since I've been doing that cleaning job. He wonders if I really am cleanin for someone. Anyway, I just got a call that I got a job at a daycare. I am so excited! I go in tomorrow for paperwork and stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well done CSS - I am so pleased for you!


----------



## calvin

StarGazer101 said:


> Well done CSS - I am so pleased for you!


Me too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

bfree said:


> Have you talked to her about counseling? Have you mentioned your concerns about the possibility that she will cheat again? Have you said that the counseling would reassure you and make you feel safe to let your guard down and begin trusting her again?


It's been a while since I suggested it, both IC and MC. She says she doesn't believe in "psycho babble" and besides it's money we don't have, especially now that I lost my full-time job. When I suggest counselling, she almost always open up to have a conversation about it, which is Ok, but she doesn't get to the bottom of things.

Since your latest post, I've thought about her actions on our anniversary in the light of your outside observations. Actually; I still have two issues: Will she cheat again? and what are her motives for staying, is it me or just for the kids, like she once told her BFF?

I believe that her effort to make new memories tell me that she probably would like it to work between us - didn't think of it that way before, but that would make some sense to me. 

So, now it's just the fear of being betrayed again that I need to work on. But 1 out of 2 is a step forward, I guess


----------



## bfree

cpacan said:


> It's been a while since I suggested it, both IC and MC. She says she doesn't believe in "psycho babble" and besides it's money we don't have, especially now that I lost my full-time job. When I suggest counselling, she almost always open up to have a conversation about it, which is Ok, but she doesn't get to the bottom of things.
> 
> Since your latest post, I've thought about her actions on our anniversary in the light of your outside observations. Actually; I still have two issues: Will she cheat again? and what are her motives for staying, is it me or just for the kids, like she once told her BFF?
> 
> I believe that her effort to make new memories tell me that she probably would like it to work between us - didn't think of it that way before, but that would make some sense to me.
> 
> So, now it's just the fear of being betrayed again that I need to work on. But 1 out of 2 is a step forward, I guess


Just based on your posts I would say she is really making an effort. It may not yet be to the level you'd like but I'd say its certainly bodes well for the future. As to whether she will cheat again I really think that is something you can never truly be sure of. We all can cheat. It really doesn't matter if someone has cheated before or not. The capability is in all of us. I think you do have a couple of things going for you. Her infidelity has not been rug swept. It has been discussed and is still being worked on to an extent. She is aware of the damage her actions have caused. This is borne out in the ways she is trying to build new memories and rebuild your opinion of her. So in that respect I would say that if she did cheat again she would do so knowing full well what the costs are. And I wouldn't worry too much about her comment to her BFF of just staying for the kids. That might have been when she was at a low point or still confused whether or not the marriage would survive. Its actions that matter and her actions suggest that it is not just the kids that she is concerned about. She is concerned about you too. That tells me there is a good amount of love and affection she has toward you.

As far as the trust issue is concerned, she could be doing a lot more in that regard but the fact is that you need to decide whether you WANT to trust her. I can tell you a little something about trust issues. I won't bore you again with my story but what I can tell you is that you have to decide whether you will trust her or not. Now I'm not talking about blind trust. That shouldn't exist in my opinion. I'm talking about trust as it relates to today and tomorrow. The idea is that you are consciously aware that you CAN be betrayed. You are aware that she can betray you. She is aware that she has the capability to betray you. And she is aware that you are aware of all of this as well. Now if you've followed that logic the point is that this is not something that can happen again in a vaccum. This is out there in the light for all to see. You need to KNOW that regardless of what happens in the future you will be ok. Once you know that trusting her will become a little easier because you know what she can do and you know how you'll react if it happens and what will happen in the aftermath. That certainty is what you have to have in the back of your mind. That is your strength. And that is what will give you the confidence to trust again.


----------



## cpacan

Thanks for this awesome post, Bfree! Something to digest and work on and with.


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## Acabado

CantSitStill said:


> Bfree that is so true that they trigger when in the car or when they have time to sit and think and analyze and wonder. It has been rough for calvin this week since I've been doing that cleaning job. He wonders if I really am cleanin for someone. Anyway, I just got a call that I got a job at a daycare. I am so excited! I go in tomorrow for paperwork and stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone.

Cpacan
I don't post very often now but wanted to respond to your post.
Will any of us know if our partners will cheat again? No we don't. But their ACTIONS can give us a huge indication of the way they are feeling, thinking and responding to what has happened and what they want for the future.
IMHO what your wife did on your anniversary is a huge indication of how remorseful she is and how much she wants to please you.
This was different than your initial 'ceremonies'. She has now experienced the full force and destruction that infidelity causes, she's trying to make it up to you and I believe she is well on the way if not already realising just how much she hurt you.
Take the gesture as it was intended. I believe she was holding an olive branch out to you. 
It is our 20th anniversary next month. We are doing great right now. I would be thrilled if my husband went to the effort your wife did.
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Congrats CSS! I hope your first day is wonderful.


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## bfree

cpacan said:


> Thanks for this awesome post, Bfree! Something to digest and work on and with.


One other thought just popped into my head (brace yourself.)

I believe at some point you said that your wife is not one to show her emotions outwardly. If I recall you said she was very introverted when it comes to emotional displays. I can somewhat relate to that. I have only cried a few times in my adult life. The first time was when my exW cheated on me. The others were when my children were born. I'm not a person that demonstrates my emotions so that you can see them. I don't wear my heart on my sleeve. If your wife is the same way then I want to highlight her crying in front of you the other day. For people like "us" crying in front of others is something we avoid at all costs. To us its a sign of weakness and it really damages our egos to have a display like that. For her to cry in front of you was probably a release of years of pent up emotions. All those times when she wanted to cry but choked it back for fear of appearing weak. To me that also shows that she has been feeling this remorse for a very long time. It also shows that she does truly love you because for people like us to reach that point of not being able to stop ourselves from crying there must have been hundreds if not thousands of times when she wanted to. When her heart was breaking and the guilt was weighing on her like a stone around her neck. Just more food for thought.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Decorum your theory is very interesting but I'm hesitant to agree with it. Could some hardwired instinct she doesn't understand played a part in it? Yes but as humans we have the ability to rise above our base instincts. FG and I have both read your post and will talk about it tomorrow, not trying to kill our vibe today. Also a good topic for MC.


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## Refuse to be played

Had a really great time with FG last night. I could tell she has been really looking forward to her big night she had planned out. So um...FG's surprise for me was a tantra chair in our bedroom. She apparently read a comment I made about them being hot in the Sex & Marriage section and ran with the idea. So after I picked my jaw off the floor we proceeded to break it in.

And on a completely unrelated note, I've decided to play hooky today and skip class and Muay Thai. Has absolutely nothing to do with last night or the chair.


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## Acabado




----------



## Forever Grateful

The last 24 hrs have been so AWESOME!!! I love you so much RTBP!!!


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## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> The last 24 hrs have been so AWESOME!!! *I love you so much RTBP!!!*


Yeah, I know....


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## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Cpacan
> I don't post very often now but wanted to respond to your post.
> Will any of us know if our partners will cheat again? No we don't. But their ACTIONS can give us a huge indication of the way they are feeling, thinking and responding to what has happened and what they want for the future.
> IMHO what your wife did on your anniversary is a huge indication of how remorseful she is and how much she wants to please you.
> This was different than your initial 'ceremonies'. She has now experienced the full force and destruction that infidelity causes, she's trying to make it up to you and I believe she is well on the way if not already realising just how much she hurt you.
> *Take the gesture as it was intended.* I believe she was holding an olive branch out to you.
> It is our 20th anniversary next month. We are doing great right now. I would be thrilled if my husband went to the effort your wife did.
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for this, DG, I appreciate it. Maybe you and Bfree are right, IDK. The problem with intentions is that you can't actually _see_ them. She used to do stuff like this all the time - even during her affair. I promise you, I had absolutely no clue.

That's why it's difficult for me to see the difference and believe in it. Self relection would be more out of the ordinairy and would mean a lot more to me, but I don't think I'll get that from her, too much out of character. Maybe the Lovelock-thing would be more out of the ordinairy for your husband and therefore have a different meaning to you?

I've got a lot to think about, and yet at the same time, I actually try to let go and be present - difficult balance.



bfree said:


> One other thought just popped into my head (brace yourself.)
> 
> I believe at some point you said that your wife is not one to show her emotions outwardly. If I recall you said she was very introverted when it comes to emotional displays. I can somewhat relate to that. I have only cried a few times in my adult life. The first time was when my exW cheated on me. The others were when my children were born. I'm not a person that demonstrates my emotions so that you can see them. I don't wear my heart on my sleeve. If your wife is the same way then I want to highlight her crying in front of you the other day. For people like "us" crying in front of others is something we avoid at all costs. To us its a sign of weakness and it really damages our egos to have a display like that. For her to cry in front of you was probably a release of years of pent up emotions. All those times when she wanted to cry but choked it back for fear of appearing weak. To me that also shows that she has been feeling this remorse for a very long time. It also shows that she does truly love you because for people like us to reach that point of not being able to stop ourselves from crying there must have been hundreds if not thousands of times when she wanted to. When her heart was breaking and the guilt was weighing on her like a stone around her neck. Just more food for thought.


Thank you for this Bfree, I hadn't really thought about that. It definitely makes sense to me, and maybe you're right. This is totally blue ocean to me, which tend to make me uncomfortable. If she doesn't like to show emotions, doesn't feel like talking about it and doesn't believe in self refelction and improvement - to me it's like navigating the ocean with no radar, no GPS, no compass, no map and only a glimpse of the stars.

I think I'll work on DG's and your recommendation; accept the uncertainty and learn to cope with the fear of being let down again.

Thanks, both of you. I love this forum and this thread


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## Decorum

Refuse to be played said:


> Decorum your theory is very interesting but I'm hesitant to agree with it. Could some hardwired instinct she doesn't understand played a part in it? Yes but as humans we have the ability to rise above our base instincts. FG and I have both read your post and will talk about it tomorrow, not trying to kill our vibe today. Also a good topic for MC.


RTBP, I appreciate your gracious reply. 

I understand your hesitancy but let me be more clear.

A boundary was crossed.

Was the boundary crossed as a result of vulnerability, or active pursuit?

It varies from a predator taking advantage of an innocent to a serial cheater with no core.

Where would you place your wife along this spectrum?

From a distance it seems to me that she did not pursue it but was vulnerable to it based on a non-sexual connection to an authority figure. ( Not quite an innocent but nowhere near a serial cheater)

She yielded to it as a result of lust, and self-centeredness.
A clear act of human volition on her part and yes one she should have risen above.

My interest was really on the pursuit vs the vulnerability aspect.

I have watched many BS spouses ask the question WHY, and yet in many cases what they come up with is, it was a lack of character in self-centeredness, boundary issues, and lust.

I have seen this to be an insufficient and unsatisfactory conclusion to some BS’s.

And yet sometimes basically good people do some really bad things for simple reasons.



Decorum said:


> That is why I said that understanding that a position and role was exploited might be deep enough, because at that point it is a boundary awareness issue and not some character flaw that issued from some deep psychological problem.
> It truly may be out of character for her, even though she has fallen to it.


I hope you don’t mind some clarification on my part. 

I am glad to hear that the two of you will be in MC.

It sounds like the two of you are really good together.



Refuse to be played said:


> not trying to kill our vibe today.


Ha ha the good “VIBE”, that is why I sometimes feel awkward about posting on this thread, one couple is up and the next is down, I know you all understand that, but my timing always seems off here, ha ha.

I will go back to lurking, but I really wish well.
Take care!


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## Forever Grateful

No harn done Decorum. We had a great time together yesterday. 

We really appreciate your perspective on this and really does bring up a great talking point for MC next week. I'll also see what my IC says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Yeah, I know....


 You are such an a--. Still love you though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

We went out to karaoke again tonight with a couple of RTBP's friends. I was designated driver and RTBP had drinking a bit. He surprised me when he went up to sing. He was on a wireless mic so he left the stage came to our table and gave me a drunken lap dance IN FRONT OF EVERYONE!  I though it was equal parts embarrassing and cute. Unfortunately nothing came of it, he is currently knocked out in bed. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Cpacan
I just wrote a long response to you and my battery died!!
Hate it when that happens, anyway, I wanted to say I totally understand your reservations, you are protecting yourself, and that is to be expected. You are so right when you say that if my husband made a gesture like that to me it would be a surprised, more than that, I would be shocked, because that is just not him and to be honest it would make me wonder if something was going on! As much as I might want a grand gesture of love, it isn't going to happen this century, but I accept that. 

We have all changed through our experience, I have changed and have become far more confident and independent than I ever was, but deep down, I'm still the same person, we can't change our core and I believe what your wife did for you truly was a show of who she really is. I know you say she still did those things during her A but remember all we have talked about her about the affair fog, the compartmentalising, etc etc. am I making any sense?

What I'm trying to say, I suppose is that, we can't change our spouses, they are who they are, and that is HER way. Through our ordeal my H has refused to attend any type of counselling, IC or MC. During the very first conversation we had about reconciliation he said "don't ask me to go to counselling, I won't go" he doesn't believe in it and doesn't want to go digging up his past, now for some this would have been a deal breaker, but I accepted it, because that is the way he has ALWAYS felt. It would be wrong of me to try and make him go or for him to just go because I demanded it. If he came home tomorrow and said we were off to MC it would worry me because it was out of character. 

It's taken me 18 months of R to finally let it go. We are in a good place. We don't speak of the A very much and life is good, getting better. We went through a rocky patch in June as you may all recall but that has come and gone and hubby is talking about a foreign holiday next year and our future plans. As I said earlier this whole experience has changed me. If I think of the person I was 2 yards ago, I wouldn't recognise myself. Now I feel like I can take on the world and come out fighting. We all take a huge risk when we decide to reconcile, we lay ourselves open for more hurt, more pain, but I for one am so glad I have taken that risk.

DG
X


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## soulpotato

daisygirl 41 said:


> Through our ordeal my H has refused to attend any type of counselling, IC or MC. During the very first conversation we had about reconciliation he said "don't ask me to go to counselling, I won't go" he doesn't believe in it and doesn't want to go digging up his past, now for some this would have been a deal breaker, but I accepted it, because that is the way he has ALWAYS felt. It would be wrong of me to try and make him go or for him to just go because I demanded it. If he came home tomorrow and said we were off to MC it would worry me because it was out of character.


DG, I'm hoping he may surprise you one day by agreeing to go to MC and IC. I was like your H my whole life. Hated therapy and therapists, just couldn't stand the process and the whole deal. I'm still not a fan of it, but I finally started going for GF and for our relationship, and I have indeed seen it help us, so I will keep going until the therapist kicks me/us out, LOL.


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## jupiter13

Our Anniversary has past and we had a lovely time out for dinner (Red Lobster.) I even wore my ring took it off as soon as we were at home. We did exchange cards, I would have normally set it up on my desk I put it back in the envelope and into the draw. He picked out a card that was stressing "For better or Worst." What the hell was he thinking? Did he think this is what our vows meant we would get though it and he gets a pass? I am still confused as to what he wants or thinks he is going to get from me. Well, he wants his marriage back, to be close and intimacy. I have simply told him that is not going to happen. 
1. AS long as their relationship remains a secret I will not share my marriage and there is no room for three. 
2. It will never be as great as it could have been because I will never be completely 100% invested in this relationship again.
3. He will never be trusted 100% as he was before.
4. This relationship is all about conditional.

I think for me this is the bottom line or how this relationship can proceed at the moment. The contract is null and void the vows are broken neither one of us need be accountable by those boundaries. Opps I don't think he likes the idea that I have just as much free range as he does. Bet this don't last long but other conditions have to be met before I will even discuss boundaries. Since he made the choice to break them I feel he has no idea how to honor them so I will not either. That was his choice that he has made for "both" of us. He redefined the marriage is how I am putting it to him. So we can live by his choice and the new boundaries he has put in place. I know this will not last long the moment I step out that door without telling where I'm going or with whom he will melt down and go crazy and want want want. Oh well I see no other way to make it clear to him that I am no longer the agreeable forgiving wife he has walked on all these years. I forgive nothing. You took now I will take. He has done some very heavy handed re-writing of the marriage so I will be calling him on that next also. So I guess this is my step one of hard ball......WE are still looking for our dog Rosie. I hired a physic (opps more than one) and it is mixed responses yet I can understand how they could get that way. WE have redoubled our search along the river. WH is of course using this as a way of not dealing with anything between us, he's just so busy and then too tired. Well so am I.

I have been trying to stay up with everyone but I guess the absence of Rosie has my mind skipping beats and I end up confused. Still a lot of great stuff on here. God Bless.....


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## soulpotato

Jupiter, I hope you get the response from WH that you desire.  And I hope Rosie is found soon.


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## calvin

Rought day yesterday with the POS contacting me after a while.
OM called and texted me a lot for a year after D Day,spoke a lot of digusting words.
He ran from every fight he set up,he told me yesterday how CSS was always his
and he could take her back anytime.
He needs to go back to prison,or find someone to crash with again.
Its no fun being toothless and homeless....poor guy,I think this time they
Really are going to repo his teeth.
It means I'm on his mind,he loves hurling insults from afar but wont meet me face to face.
I'm not worried about it.
Time to make my killer spahetti for the fam,they love it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

sorry to barge in . but I have a question about pursuit . active Pursuit is easy to judge. but isn't there such a thing as passive pursuit ? its still action but not as overt . I was in a situation recently, vulnernerable for the same reasons CSS describes - passive H, needing reassurance and not seeing a drop of "caveman" even after sharing the overt passes a colleague was making. the thing is for a while I didn't shut the colleague down . I'm not attracted to him in the least but I sure did like the attention . the thing is the lack of response from my husband hurt so much because it seem like he just didn't care. I explained to him how his lack of response encouraged my vulnerability.

while I never pursued compliments from this man I never shut him down . I think that can be called passive pursuit .

one day we were out for dinner and the man was texting me about a problem at work . because it was a problem at work I responded to the texts. when it turned over to sexual I handed the phone to my husband so he could read . it was only then that he became annoyed and said that he cared. That it bothered him. but was it because it interrupted our dinner ? 

and my husband defense , he trusted me and believed that I have no physical attraction to this man. but what he didn't understand is lack of physical attraction in no way precludes an affair. and whether someone wants to admit it or not, they know passive pursuit is wrong. so yes I was vulnerable but I was anything but helpless . there were many choices in front of me and I could take any one of them .

the end of the story is that my husband understand that I need a bit of caveman to feel safe, loved and protected . It doesn't matter what I think of the other man. The only thing that matters is what my husband thinks of me. and that disconnect happens with men is well when they think their wives don't love them .

the current situation with the other man is that no matter how many times I tell him to stop he doesn't seem capable and I'm too darn nice to put my foot down more than I already have . I'm at the point where I'm probably going to contact his wife if he doesn't stop after I try one more very firm attempt at shutting him down . I don't want him to lose his job . but I do want to knock it off . I guess this is my punishment for allowing it in the first place . no dalliance with infidelity goes unpunished .

I'm a very well delete this because it doesn't feel appropriate to jump into this thread .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Calvin,
What do you think his agenda is? Or do you really care?
He probably just wants to stir **** up.
I had a FB message out of the blue about 3 months ago from exOWs husband asking me all sorts of stuff and saying he didn't think his marriage was going to last the summer blah blah blah. I know his agenda. He wants to make me think there's something still going on. He wants to sabotage our R. It did set us back for a while, I allowed it to get to me. But no more. I'm not interested in his games. We are doing fine, we are moving on. Time to let it go!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Calvin,
> What do you think his agenda is? Or do you really care?
> He probably just wants to stir **** up.
> I had a FB message out of the blue about 3 months ago from exOWs husband asking me all sorts of stuff and saying he didn't think his marriage was going to last the summer blah blah blah. I know his agenda. He wants to make me think there's something still going on. He wants to sabotage our R. It did set us back for a while, I allowed it to get to me. But no more. I'm not interested in his games. We are doing fine, we are moving on. Time to let it go!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One of his close friends blieves he s mildly retarded,he might be.
He's trying to piss me off.
In HS he never got to sleep with CSS and I think he is still mad
I broke up his plan.
He actually thought he was going to get to move in my home,he did it to a couple other families
And split them up.
Maybe he was drunk or maybe he's testing the waters to see if we are still together.
He got ahold of one of CSS's friends a year ago fishing.
I'm not worried about him,he's miserable and I'm pretty happy.
I'm sure he's still mad,after I exposed he lost his gf and another girl he thought he had a shot with,
He also lost some friends,so I'm sure he is still pissed.
He set up quite a few fights and either ran or didnt show.
So,no worries Daisy,I dont care about him and me and CSS are doing
Pretty good.
GOOOOOOO!!!!! Bears!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Freaking men and football. I swear I'll never get it. Whatever I like buffalo wings. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Freaking men and football. I swear I'll never get it. Whatever I like buffalo wings. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey,hey,hey now FG! 
RTBP watching the game?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Yeah he is. I can hear the damn tv downstairs from here. And I'm in our bedroom. With the door closed. And my own tv on. Is it really necessary to have it that loud?!  :cussing:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Yeah he is. I can hear the damn tv downstairs from here. And I'm in our bedroom. With the door closed. And my own tv on. Is it really necessary to have it that loud?!  :cussing:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Um.....yes,its a requirement to have it that loud.Knew I liked something 
about your Hubs. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Oh great 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> Freaking men and football. I swear I'll never get it. Whatever I like buffalo wings. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Football connects with men on a primitive level. Competition, hunting, strategy, physical pounding. All the things that men evolved with, all the instincts that resonate with us. It's the same for women when it comes to makeup, hair, playing with dolls, reading Bride magazines, etc. When a woman stops caring for herself and how she looks is no different from when a man stops feeling the "pull" of the competitive fire and the draw of physical competition. It's that primitive side of RTPB that makes him want to shag you in the bedroom and protect and care for you.


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## calvin

Pretty tight game,Bengals are a much better team this year.
Bears are better,I think we are going to pull it out.
I'm kinda excited and getting a little loud,CSS is very quiet,have'nt heard
A peep out of her durng the game. :-(
I know she has a lot to do for her new job this week and she has a lot on her mind.
She has more than stepped up to the plate and I'm very proud of how hard
She has been trying,she's getting results from her efforts.
Bears win!
CSS is also good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> Football connects with men on a primitive level. Competition, hunting, strategy, physical pounding. All the things that men evolved with, all the instincts that resonate with us. It's the same for women when it comes to makeup, hair, playing with dolls, reading Bride magazines, etc. When a woman stops caring for herself and how she looks is no different from when a man stops feeling the "pull" of the competitive fire and the draw of physical competition. It's that primitive side of RTPB that makes him want to shag you in the bedroom and protect and care for you.


I can understand that. Although you would think he'd get his fix from muay thai but ok. And I never played with dolls as a girl. I was a Sega Genesis and Nintendo kind of a girl.

Game must be over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I can understand that. Although you would think he'd get his fix from muay thai but ok. And I never played with dolls as a girl. I was a Sega Genesis and Nintendo kind of a girl.
> 
> Game must be over.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Another football widow....sigh I feel bad FG...a little..somewhat...
Kinda.....ahhh...not really.
Hang in there,the season will be over in four short months!

Now I feel bad.....four months?
The game should be played all year!
Thank God the Black Hawks will be playing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

calvin said:


> Another football widow....sigh I feel bad FG...a little..somewhat...
> Kinda.....ahhh...not really.
> Hang in there,the season will be over in four short months!
> 
> Now I feel bad.....four months?
> The game should be played all year!
> Thank God the Black Hawks will be playing!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife decided years ago that she wasn't going to be a football widow. So she learned the game, follows the team and knows all the players. We watch together and she teases me by saying things like "Tom Brady is so cute, I'd let him do me." I told her that when she looks like Gisele Bundchen he might but I'd get to her first.


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## russell28

bfree said:


> My wife decided years ago that she wasn't going to be a football widow. So she learned the game, follows the team and knows all the players. We watch together and she teases me by saying things like "Tom Brady is so cute, I'd let him do me." I told her that when she looks like Gisele Bundchen he might but I'd get to her first.


I'm not gay, but I wouldn't throw Tom Brady out of bed...


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## calvin

bfree said:


> My wife decided years ago that she wasn't going to be a football widow. So she learned the game, follows the team and knows all the players. We watch together and she teases me by saying things like "Tom Brady is so cute, I'd let him do me." I told her that when she looks like Gisele Bundchen he might but I'd get to her first.


Now thats funny!
Yep,CSS normally is all over the game,guess she has too much on her mind today.
Tillman is still kicking but.Hell of a cornerback still.
Brady is a pretty boy,I dont care for him but he is skilled.
I dream of Urlacker sometimes...wait....did I say that out loud?
CSS has a pic of him right by her bedroom mirror.
Doesnt bother me at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> I can understand that. Although you would think he'd get his fix from muay thai but ok. And I never played with dolls as a girl. I was a Sega Genesis and Nintendo kind of a girl.
> 
> Game must be over.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right on, FG!! I don't know how many hours I logged on my Nintendo and Game Boy when I was a kid. Also, no to the dolls, girly magazines, make-up, etc (at least for me)! I preferred to climb trees and build forts.


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## soulpotato

Had a quick but good weekend with GF. We did some serious talking about living situations and what the future would hold. She wants me to move in with her at some point, maybe within the next few months. We've both got some logistics to work out, so we'll see how that goes, but it's looking good otherwise.


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## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Another football widow....sigh I feel bad FG...a little..somewhat...
> Kinda.....ahhh...not really.
> Hang in there,the season will be over in four short months!
> 
> Now I feel bad.....four months?
> The game should be played all year!
> Thank God the Black Hawks will be playing!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No she's screwed basketball season starts at the end of Oct. 

Plus Derrick Rose is back. Go Bulls!!!


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> No she's screwed basketball season starts at the end of Oct.
> 
> Plus Derrick Rose is back. Go Bulls!!!


True...sorry FG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Had a quick but good weekend with GF. We did some serious talking about living situations and what the future would hold. She wants me to move in with her at some point, maybe within the next few months. We've both got some logistics to work out, so we'll see how that goes, but it's looking good otherwise.


Great news SP!!! Happy for you. Keep on riding that wave!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> My wife decided years ago that she wasn't going to be a football widow. So she learned the game, follows the team and knows all the players. We watch together and she teases me by saying things like "Tom Brady is so cute, I'd let him do me." I told her that when she looks like Gisele Bundchen he might but I'd get to her first.


Looks like I'm going to have to follow your wife's lead then. I know the rules and most of the terms already but just don't see what the big deal is. I refuse to watch basketball through, that is way too long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to follow your wife's lead then. I know the rules and most of the terms already but just don't see what the big deal is. I refuse to watch basketball through, that is way too long.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I'm with you on that. Never been a basketball fan. I think it's the short shorts. Hockey and football. And baseball during the playoffs.


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to follow your wife's lead then. I know the rules and most of the terms already but just don't see what the big deal is. I refuse to watch basketball through, that is way too long.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Must admit,never watched a single Bulls game,just cant get into it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> Yeah I'm with you on that. Never been a basketball fan. I think it's the short shorts. Hockey and football. And baseball during the playoffs.


I can watch basketball. My little brother use to play it. NBA season is just too long. I'll watch the playoffs with RTBP though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Cowboys are killing the Giants....Cowboys are way overrated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Cowboys are killing the Giants....Cowboys are way overrated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup, the Jints lost but it was in big D and its early in the season. The Jints usually don't get it together until just before the playoffs.

Five more days until we go camping! Whoohoo.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Yup, the Jints lost but it was in big D and its early in the season. The Jints usually don't get it together until just before the playoffs.
> 
> Five more days until we go camping! Whoohoo.


I'm jelious bfree,stop by and pick me up,I'll do all the cooking!
Please??? Get me out of here!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> I'm jelious bfree,stop by and pick me up,I'll do all the cooking!
> Please??? Get me out of here!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol


----------



## calvin

Quiet on here today,I hope that means everyone is doing good today.
I know me and CSS are.
Took her to the cop shop a town over so she can see how to get there
for her background check for teachers assistant.
Tomorrow is her first day, dont need to cross my fingers.
She has this job no problem....just some first day jitters going on and
thats understandable.
Good luck tomorrow honey,dont let the little brats ...er I mean
little angels get to you.
You were and still are one hell of a Mom,Aunt and just someone that has 
A knack for children.
Love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

I'm starting to hate RTBP's muay thai. This afternoon I get a text from him saying he was about to send me a picture and to not freak out. 2 minutes later I get a picture of him with a huge gash above his left eye and blood all over his face! So of course I freak out and rush over to the gym. Apparently he got hit with an accidental elbow to the face. I took him to the ER and he had to get 3 stitches. I wanted him to get tested for a concussion but he said he wasn't knocked out, that he was fine, and he didn't want to. So now I'm a combination of feeling relieved he wasn't seriously hurt and pissed off because he isn't taking it seriously. Fortunately he has a doctor's appointment on Wednesday for something else and I will go with him to make sure he doesn't downplay anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Morning, all good here. We are all recovering from coughs and colds but beginning to feel better now.

We had a planned a weekend away to London for our 20th wedding anniv in October. So very excited about that. We got engaged in London when I was living there so have many happy memories of the place. We are going to visit a few of the places we used to hangout.

It's a good day!


----------



## calvin

Good luck on your first day at your new job CSS!
Love you honey.
I think I'll quit my job today

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

calvin said:


> Good luck tomorrow honey,dont let the little brats ...er I mean
> little angels get to you.
> 
> A knack for children.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe look into some ankle protection, to prevent her "Knack" from becoming a "snack" to the little ankle-biters.

:rofl:

Good luck CSS


----------



## calvin

Weird not having CSS home,I miss her.
I'll have the bed made and the dishes done for her,she gets home
At 7pm now which isnt too bad.
Hottest day of the year and my central air took a crap.
Going to go pull the cover off and check the relay,its like its getting no power.
Yes I checked the breaker,there is also a re set on the fan relay
I'll have to look at by the furnace but the blower motor works.
Thank God one of my buddies is a retired steelworker who does
Heating and a/c on the sidehe should be here soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> I'm starting to hate RTBP's muay thai. This afternoon I get a text from him saying he was about to send me a picture and to not freak out. 2 minutes later I get a picture of him with a huge gash above his left eye and blood all over his face! So of course I freak out and rush over to the gym. Apparently he got hit with an accidental elbow to the face. I took him to the ER and he had to get 3 stitches. I wanted him to get tested for a concussion but he said he wasn't knocked out, that he was fine, and he didn't want to. So now I'm a combination of feeling relieved he wasn't seriously hurt and pissed off because he isn't taking it seriously. Fortunately he has a doctor's appointment on Wednesday for something else and I will go with him to make sure he doesn't downplay anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Oh god, it was not that bad. FG is exaggerating everyone!


----------



## calvin

Air is on!
He's an old guy who is his mid 70's and loves to talk.
$25 bucks,cant beat it.
Hate for CSS to come home from her first day at a new job and the a\c not work.
Ok,on to the dishes and make the bed.
I have the kids kicking in also!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Air is on!
> He's an old guy who is his mid 70's and loves to talk.
> $25 bucks,cant beat it.
> Hate for CSS to come home from her first day at a new job and the a\c not work.
> Ok,on to the dishes and make the bed.
> I have the kids kicking in also!
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad you got it fixed. I feel bad for anyone that went without A/c today. It is crazy hot.

Oh calvin dude. How long until CSS gets home? I got two words for you. *Foot. Massage.*


----------



## calvin

CSS wll be home soon,reversed rolls in a way kinda.
Dishes done,bed made,a/c fixed,dog fed,kitchen wiped down.
Now I just need her....pretty soon.
I really want to hear about her day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> CSS wll be home soon,reversed rolls in a way kinda.
> Dishes done,bed made,a/c fixed,dog fed,kitchen wiped down.
> Now I just need her....pretty soon.
> I really want to hear about her day
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We all want to hear about her day with those lil monsters.


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> We all want to hear about her day with those lil monsters.


She's still telling me,pretty interesting.
She seems to have a handle on it so far,she has experience with kids.
Gonna make her some grilled cheese with home grown maters.
I'm sure she will tell you guys all about it.

As for me,I'm proud of her,love the hell out of her and things keep 
getting better and better with us als.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I have a feeling she's going to do real well. She'll be great with these kids. She has big heart.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> I'm glad you got it fixed. I feel bad for anyone that went without A/c today. It is crazy hot.
> 
> Oh calvin dude. How long until CSS gets home? I got two words for you. *Foot. Massage.*


Ok dude,I made her massage my feet.She wasnt too happy about it but so what.
What should I make her do next besides the obvious?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I have a feeling she's going to do real well. She'll be great with these kids. She has big heart.


Yeah bfree,she does.
She's something else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Ok dude,I made her massage my feet.She wasnt too happy about it but so what.
> What should I make her do next besides the obvious?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol: :rofl:

Think you got it backwards there my man....


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> :lol: :rofl:
> 
> Think you got it backwards there my man....


Ohhh.....damn it. My bad.
I should of had her cut my toenails first.....no onder she seemed mad
Thanks RTBP,I had no idea.
I'll get the clippers,least I can do.
Where are my manners???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Ohhh.....damn it. My bad.
> I should of had her cut my toenails first.....no onder she seemed mad
> Thanks RTBP,I had no idea.
> I'll get the clippers,least I can do.
> Where are my manners???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No wait, you were suppose to....you know what, never mind, go for it. Why don't you take it a step further and have her cut them for you! And then have her get you a drink afterwards, that will definitely make her night!


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> No wait, you were suppose to....you know what, never mind, go for it. Why don't you take it a step further and have her cut them for you! And then have her get you a drink afterwards, that will definitely make her night!


I took good care of her tonight.
She told me about the job and I'm kinda anxious to hear how it goes for her.
Its all good.
Cant wait for my foot rub again tomorrow!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Calvin and RTBP you two think you're funny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Calvin and RTBP you two think you're funny.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Woman please...you know I'm funny.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Woman please...you know I'm funny.


 Whatever
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

RTBP

If you are really funny instead of flowers for your wife bring home new, shiny toe nail clippers.

After all what girl does not like something new and shiny! 

Let us know how it goes when she gets her present....

HM64


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> RTBP
> 
> If you are really funny instead of flowers for your wife bring home new, shiny toe nail clippers.
> 
> After all what girl does not like something new and shiny!
> 
> Let us know how it goes when she gets her present....
> 
> HM64


I'd advise against it....still in a lot of pain....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> I'd advise against it....still in a lot of pain....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You'd be wise to listen to calvin RTBP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I really miss CSS greeting me at the door when I come home from the mill.
Got my son,dog and the dumb bird but thats ok.
It just makes it so much better when she does walk through the door.
I know she's kinda tired from the new job but she will get used to it more.
I'm tired from the OT but if I dont get some lovin tonight I'm going to
rip apart the whole damn......newspaper??
Good things come to those who wait.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Got a tast for Arbys....think I'll pick that up.
When CSS gets home later I think a back rub is in order RTBP.
She wasnt crazy about the foot massage last night.
Maybe her giving me a backrub will be easier on her.
I'm a very caring giving guy,I wish I had a twin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'm so used to coming home and having her here....good God.
When she tells me she anticipates me coming home I did'nt really
see what the big deal was.
Now I missed her while at work but its different her coming home from work.
I worry about her too,not a bad neighborhood or anything....
Whats wrong with me?

Maybe it whats right with US.
I definately can tell the tide has turned,still trigger but they are less
and less and most of their power has leaked away.
Sometimes I feel bad for CSS.
She needs to forgive herself and I need to do more to help her with that.
She's a good person who made one f'd up decision but that doesnt define her at all,not even close.
Guess I'll go wait with the dog by the window,dumb dog already seems to know
CSS will be home soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin, what you describe is love my friend.


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> I'm so used to coming home and having her here....good God.
> When she tells me she anticipates me coming home I did'nt really
> see what the big deal was.
> Now I missed her while at work but its different her coming home from work.
> I worry about her too,not a bad neighborhood or anything....
> Whats wrong with me?
> 
> Maybe it whats right with US.
> I definately can tell the tide has turned,still trigger but they are less
> and less and most of their power has leaked away.
> Sometimes I feel bad for CSS.
> She needs to forgive herself and I need to do more to help her with that.
> She's a good person who made one f'd up decision but that doesnt define her at all,not even close.
> Guess I'll go wait with the dog by the window,dumb dog already seems to know
> CSS will be home soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know the feeling calvin. Its hard sitting around waiting for the wife to come home. FG would travel for business all the time and be gone for days. It sucks. But at least she isn't gone for days at a time.

Glad to hear things between you and CSS are going so great. Maybe me and FG will get there at some point.


----------



## CantSitStill

I have to say, first of all...I am very very impressed with the way Calvin has been helping around the house. He really makes it easier on me. And also wanna say I really really like this job .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> I know the feeling calvin. Its hard sitting around waiting for the wife to come home. FG would travel for business all the time and be gone for days. It sucks. But at least she isn't gone for days at a time.
> 
> Glad to hear things between you and CSS are going so great. Maybe me and FG will get there at some point.


Still some pitfalls after 19 months but this garbage is hard to get through.
Not over but through.
It can be done and a much better relationship or marriage is very possible. 
It really does take a WS who's remorse is pushing the envelope and a BS who can forgive and believe.
It seems to take a God awful amount of time for me to heal.
We're not great but we are trying to get there.
As long as you keep trying I think things will be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Calvin your in a much better place than you were when I first started reading here. You and CCS are ones that have also brought hope onto these boards. Thumbs up!


----------



## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> Calvin your in a much better place than you were when I first started reading here. You and CCS are ones that have also brought hope onto these boards. Thumbs up!


Thanks jup but there is also b1 and EI,Beo and Morrigan ( they are no longer on ) :-(
and there are more on here that were an insiration to me.
Its hard but getting much better.
CSS is definately worth a chance.
I hope every one here makes it and from what I can tell I think
Every one has a excellent shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Thanks jup but there is also b1 and EI,Beo and Morrigan ( they are no longer on ) :-(
> and there are more on here that were an insiration to me.
> Its hard but getting much better.
> CSS is definately worth a chance.
> I hope every one here makes it and from what I can tell I think
> Every one has a excellent shot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Long before I started posting here when I would get together with B & M they would show me threads and break down each post and tell me what they thought would happen. They were both really good at seeing past the hurt, the anger, the confusions and even the guilt that both WS and BS would show. Calvin, when you first started posting Beowulf said to me "this guy is going to be just fine." I said but he is totally emotionally shot. He seems like he's broken. B said to me "this guy has a strength about him. Even though he is in tremendous pain he is taking action. And that is what is going to see him through." He also said that if his wife gets her head out of her rear end this marriage is going to be fixed because you can feel how much he loves her regardless of what he's going through.

When CSS came on and started posting Morrigan picked apart her posts just like B did. She said "this girl is going to make it. She has a strength inside of her that she doesn't even realize she has." I told her that all I saw was a very confused and frustrated woman. M said "yes she is confused and frustrated but she's looking for answers and she won't rest until she has repaired this marriage." When EI posted many people doubted her. Many more thought she would cheat again. And some even thought she still was. Morrigan told me "she is devestated by what she did. This is not her. She is the backbone, the one everyone counts on. For her to see what she's done is killing her. She will turn this around. Trust me."

Those two were able to see beyond the surface. Their instincts about people were really unbelievable. But they were also 20 years past their own D-day. So even though they still felt some of the old scars they were able to keep things in perspective. Calvin your and CSS's D-day is still pretty fresh as is EI and B1's. You all come on here and read stories, offer advice and feel other's pain. You all do it solely because you want to help. Sometimes you need to take a break because the emotions are still raw. But you have all helped so many people and continue to do so. Your advice is always valuable and it is disseminated with true love and concern for others. As far as I'm concerned if there is a Mount Rushmore of TAM, you are all on it.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Long before I started posting here when I would get together with B & M they would show me threads and break down each post and tell me what they thought would happen. They were both really good at seeing past the hurt, the anger, the confusions and even the guilt that both WS and BS would show. Calvin, when you first started posting Beowulf said to me "this guy is going to be just fine." I said but he is totally emotionally shot. He seems like he's broken. B said to me "this guy has a strength about him. Even though he is in tremendous pain he is taking action. And that is what is going to see him through." He also said that if his wife gets her head out of her rear end this marriage is going to be fixed because you can feel how much he loves her regardless of what he's going through.
> 
> When CSS came on and started posting Morrigan picked apart her posts just like B did. She said "this girl is going to make it. She has a strength inside of her that she doesn't even realize she has." I told her that all I saw was a very confused and frustrated woman. M said "yes she is confused and frustrated but she's looking for answers and she won't rest until she has repaired this marriage." When EI posted many people doubted her. Many more thought she would cheat again. And some even thought she still was. Morrigan told me "she is devestated by what she did. This is not her. She is the backbone, the one everyone counts on. For her to see what she's done is killing her. She will turn this around. Trust me."
> 
> Those two were able to see beyond the surface. Their instincts about people were really unbelievable. But they were also 20 years past their own D-day. So even though they still felt some of the old scars they were able to keep things in perspective. Calvin your and CSS's D-day is still pretty fresh as is EI and B1's. You all come on here and read stories, offer advice and feel other's pain. You all do it solely because you want to help. Sometimes you need to take a break because the emotions are still raw. But you have all helped so many people and continue to do so. Your advice is always valuable and it is disseminated with true love and concern for others. As far as I'm concerned if there is a Mount Rushmore of TAM, you are all on it.


Dont know what to say bfree,that gave me a lump in m throat but
also makes me feel better.
I miss the hell out of Beo and Morrigan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Home waiting on CSS.
Its pornos and cheetos time!
I think I'll just pick up some and me and my fat Beagle Queenie will
Relax on the deck,beautiful out today,breezey and about 80.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Long before I started posting here when I would get together with B & M they would show me threads and break down each post and tell me what they thought would happen. They were both really good at seeing past the hurt, the anger, the confusions and even the guilt that both WS and BS would show. Calvin, when you first started posting Beowulf said to me "this guy is going to be just fine." I said but he is totally emotionally shot. He seems like he's broken. B said to me "this guy has a strength about him. Even though he is in tremendous pain he is taking action. And that is what is going to see him through." He also said that if his wife gets her head out of her rear end this marriage is going to be fixed because you can feel how much he loves her regardless of what he's going through.
> 
> When CSS came on and started posting Morrigan picked apart her posts just like B did. She said "this girl is going to make it. She has a strength inside of her that she doesn't even realize she has." I told her that all I saw was a very confused and frustrated woman. M said "yes she is confused and frustrated but she's looking for answers and she won't rest until she has repaired this marriage." When EI posted many people doubted her. Many more thought she would cheat again. And some even thought she still was. Morrigan told me "she is devestated by what she did. This is not her. She is the backbone, the one everyone counts on. For her to see what she's done is killing her. She will turn this around. Trust me."
> 
> Those two were able to see beyond the surface. Their instincts about people were really unbelievable. But they were also 20 years past their own D-day. So even though they still felt some of the old scars they were able to keep things in perspective. Calvin your and CSS's D-day is still pretty fresh as is EI and B1's. You all come on here and read stories, offer advice and feel other's pain. You all do it solely because you want to help. Sometimes you need to take a break because the emotions are still raw. But you have all helped so many people and continue to do so. Your advice is always valuable and it is disseminated with true love and concern for others. As far as I'm concerned if there is a Mount Rushmore of TAM, you are all on it.



Thank you for sharing this, bfree, and thank Beo and Morrigan, for me, as well, for their vote of confidence. It meant a great deal to me last year to know that they believed in me when I felt so damaged and broken, by my own actions, that I wasn't even sure if I could believe in myself, anymore. It helps so much when you're down if just one person can honestly say, "I believe in you." I did have days last year when I didn't know if I had the strength to keep going. Reading TAM can, both, build you up and tear you down. It was the encouragement and support that I found, here, that empowered me and gave me the strength and the hope that I needed to keep fighting for my marriage, my family and my own self-respect.

I know I'm not impartial, but I do believe that the people who are or have been "R" thread regulars, at some point, represent the best of the best of TAM.


----------



## seasalt

EI,

There is a post up in the general section that I was going to make a response to but hesitated. It's been going on for a while and has to do with a wife that is preparing herself to leave her husband because of his depressive state. She has not talked about cheating but she has talked about the type of man that would interest her and it's not her husband any longer.

Last year I asked you a question about leaving your husband behind in his depression and how it could have been different for the two of you and how it would be different if it happened again. You acknowledged that you didn't have an answer last year. I don't want to feel like I'm sending you on a "Mission Impossible" or suggest that you do anything that would be hurtful to yourself or B1 but the responses she is getting are all over the map.

Just a thought from someone with a comparatively few posts to someone with a goodly bit more,

Seasalt


----------



## soulpotato

I am at a loss here. Had a fight with GF last night (if you can call it a fight when one person snaps and yells and the other mostly remains calm and reasonable). I tried listening to the recording to see if it struck me differently (I record some of our conversations for analysis and memory purposes, and I've told her this - in fact, I sent her the file and suggested she listen to it again too once she felt calmer), and it still struck me as WTF. 

She tells me it's how I bring things up to her. But since being in therapy and reading all the self-help books, I've learned how to be more careful in how I communicate and what the "ground rules" of good, non-provocative communication are. Even if I don't bring something up perfectly, I don't feel I deserve to be yelled at or have my concerns disregarded. Which happens, well, a lot.

Speaking of being yelled at, I stopped her at one point last night and asked her to stop raising her voice and yelling at me. She ignored it and kept going (as usual). I addressed it again and asked if she could at least apologize when she yelled at me. She said, "No, I can't do that." She also told me that I was just trying to stop her from saying what she wanted to say when I asked her to stop yelling at me, and that she can't help snapping, raising her voice, and yelling at me when she's upset. WTH. I have to control my behavior and emotional expression, but she doesn't have to control hers. Not to mention, I can't have a problem with being yelled at just for the fact that it is disrespectful, hurtful, and threatening? This is so frustrating!

(According to GF, the groundwork for the fight was laid when I told her that I was sad and hurt that she had been distant for the last week or so, and because on the day that I only received one word via text - "cool" - when she didn't feel like being social and talking, she went out to an auction with her coworkers for the evening! So there you go, maybe that's the whole reason for everything - me feeling hurt. She said she asked her work buddies if they would be upset if their serious long-term partner living apart from them had days of not speaking to them, and they all said they'd be fine with it. Am I crazy to think that there should be some kind of communication nearly every day in a serious relationship?)

 Am I really asking for that much?


----------



## soulpotato

I just called her to check on her, see if she wanted to spend a little time together where we didn't talk about any problems and just focused on having a nice time. She said she really doesn't understand how I could think that would help and that she doesn't want to see me.  I was choking back my tears so she wouldn't be burdened by how much that hurt me. 

I don't feel I deserve this, not for last night.


----------



## CantSitStill

Soulpotato, don't get to where you are focusing totally on all you have read, all relationships are different. Everyone has their flaws. Don't overthink every conversation. Yet also it sounds like GF is not reading and on the same page with you. Yes that is frustrating. Listening to her other friends does not justify that it is ok to not speak or be with you for that long. She needs to consider your feelings and you need to consider hers. There may be couples that are totally ok with being away for a bit but in your situation your relationship with her is fragile because of your EA. Hang in there, this is hard I know. Just don't give up. You can change your own behavior but you cannot change hers. If you continue to not be happy with her, you may eventually need to move on. Focus on you and your response. Calvin has been quiet with me for 24 hours now and yes it's making me feel crazy but he has to work on himself. All I can do is be here for him, be patient and hope his feelings change soon. I had a real good day at work yesterday and couldn't talk to him about it because he chooses to not talk and stay silent. I also wanted to tell him how the doctor put me on a blood pressure medication yesterday too. (Hugs). Soul, I feel your pain when reading your posts..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

SoulPotato

And you are with her because ???

Sometimes I tell men to man up. Sometimes I tell them to be patent.

But it seems like you are in a one sided relationship.

If she only sent you one text "cool" and you are the one in tears then ask yourself why you are in a relationship with her??

Because it takes a lot more than love to have a relationship.

Trust, honesty and hard work are required as well.

Stop crying......

HM


----------



## jupiter13

Chiming in. After all this time sometimes I still do yell and scream if that is what I feel like doing. Does he feel I am binging disrespectful and rude I guess so but ya' know I don't care when I am feeling like that. I didn't make the choice to cheat, lie and be deceitful nor did I get to support the idea. So if he doesn't like the way it makes me feel sometimes and the depth of my pain to F~*king bad. There is the door.


----------



## jupiter13

Might I add he knows now how much I was in love with him and takes it. Listens and then will hold me while I cry afterwards. Somehow the anger has to get out.


----------



## soulpotato

CSS, it was like this even before my EAs, but I had been thinking earlier this year that I had been contributing to the bad stuff by being untreated, and the fact that neither of us was in therapy when both sorely needed it. But now that I am getting treatment for my BPD and trying to make everything right, she will still go back to her old behavior. It doesn't seem to matter how good I am. I feel like I am punished for daring to ask her for her time or feel hurt if she doesn't want to talk to me but then wants to be around other people. Then she just shuts me out when I try to figure out how to make it better. It is so hard.


----------



## soulpotato

Jupiter, she would yell and be disrespectful to me way before my EAs.


----------



## soulpotato

Jupiter, your WH is not doing what he needs to do for you to heal, correct? I have been doing everything I can for GF. But still, certain behaviors are just destructive to the rebuilding that we are attempting to do, and the therapists have told me that I should not tolerate being abused past a certain point, not even as punishment for my EAs. But it doesn't seem like this is about my EAs, really. If anything, it sounds like she does not want me to have any influence or say in anything in her life. I think it comes down to control for her. But I could be wrong. If she doesn't want to communicate, I don't know.

It really makes me sad, because we were doing so much better for the last 2 months. Now...I don't know what the hell is going on. Maybe she has changed her mind and has not told me.


----------



## soulpotato

happyman64 said:


> SoulPotato
> 
> And you are with her because ???
> 
> Sometimes I tell men to man up. Sometimes I tell them to be patent.
> 
> But it seems like you are in a one sided relationship.
> 
> If she only sent you one text "cool" and you are the one in tears then ask yourself why you are in a relationship with her??
> 
> Because it takes a lot more than love to have a relationship.
> 
> Trust, honesty and hard work are required as well.
> 
> Stop crying......
> 
> HM


HM, I am with her because I love her. We have good times and when we are not having issues, it's great. I figure if we can just fix some of these problems in therapy, things will work out just fine, but it is so hurtful when these times happen. It tears me up. 

I'm not a man.  I didn't cry for many years, but that wasn't healthy. I was able to do it by shutting off my emotions and just dissociating when things hurt me. And disconnecting from GF a lot of the time. But that disconnection just compounded problems. So now that I'm trying to reconnect with her and my emotions, when I'm hurt, I tend to cry. Can't win, lol.

Maybe it is stupid that I think I can R with her and that we can do this. I don't know.


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## jupiter13

soulpotato I can't remember is she in counseling too. Also sounds like she could be escaping through her friends and avoidance of you and problem. I may be wrong just an idea.


----------



## calvin

Yes I was quiet,because of the losers fb message yesterday morning.
Thought I had him blocked,he is know.
Scumbag is so dense someone had to create another name for him.
He does'nt know how.
Not happy you brought him into our life.
I still wonder what the heck you were thinking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

jupiter13 said:


> soulpotato I can't remember is she in counseling too. Also sounds like she could be escaping through her friends and avoidance of you and problem. I may be wrong just an idea.


She _had_ her own therapist, but got rid of them because she didn't think they were helping anymore. She has been using my therapist in our joint sessions, basically. She is supposed to be finding another therapist for herself, but she hasn't done that yet. It could be you are right, Jupiter. She is generally pretty avoidant and has trouble dealing with emotions.


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## soulpotato

calvin said:


> Yes I was quiet,because of the losers fb message yesterday morning.
> Thought I had him blocked,he is know.
> Scumbag is so dense someone had to create another name for him.
> He does'nt know how.
> Not happy you brought him into our life.
> I still wonder what the heck you were thinking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, I'm sorry you and CSS are going through this and that this guy still persists. He has nothing and just wants to destroy you and CSS. He sounds like a hateful a$$. I am sure CSS asks herself that every day and deeply regrets bringing him into your lives.


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Calvin, I'm sorry you and CSS are going through this and that this guy still persists. He has nothing and just wants to destroy you and CSS. He sounds like a hateful a$$. I am sure CSS asks herself that every day and deeply regrets bringing him into your lives.


I went months without hearing from him,for the first year it was bad.
I wont let him get to me.
He truely is an idiot and one of the biggest liars I ever ran across.
When we told some of his "friends" the lies he said aout them they dropped him.
The idiot would of hurt CSS.
After I exposed his ex dumped him,I talk to her sometimes,she's
A real sweet girl,he talked about her like she was a *****.
She loved him,he told me she was just a cum bucket to him.
Incredible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

I'm sorry you're going through this SP. GF's yelling is totally uncalled for, I'm glad to see you kept your cool and stayed calm and reasonable. Especially when all you did was express your feelings. It is completely reasonable to want more than one text in a day from your partner in a LTR. And stop that defeatist talk. Hold your head up, know you are doing everything in your power to make things right. 

I'm here girl if you want to talk some more. I'm rooting for you SP! Cyber-hugs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Thanks, FG. I am really down. I am struggling with my negative thoughts and feelings right now. Me being able to stay calm and reasonable doesn't seem to matter. Ironic.


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## calvin

And yes Sp,she regrets the hell out of it, I know that.
The A was her fault,none of this would be happening but its not her
fault the nut job gets his jollies off on trying to get to me like that.
He could say it to my face but he won't.
We're ok,She feels bad but we'll be fine,no reason we can't.
Hope things start getting better soon with you and gf.
You to Jup,I like hearing positive resutls from everyone here,it keeps me
motivated.
Time to cut smok.....er cut the grass and then cuddle with CSS and watch a movie.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Thanks, FG. I am really down. I am struggling with my negative thoughts and feelings right now. Me being able to stay calm and reasonable doesn't seem to matter. Ironic.


I know what its like to struggle with those feelings. You can't let them win. Stay strong and I think things will get better between you two. Don't hesitate to PM me if you want to talk to someone. You've been there for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Thank you, FG. I PM'ed you a bit ago. 

Everything will be okay and continue on whether I fight or give up. I am not special or important, and I would just be flattering myself to think that it matters whether I exist or not. I was throwing things away today - it was a little soothing to erase my presence from this place like I was never here.

It made no sense whatsoever that things suddenly exploded, so it is hard to imagine that they will get better or remain that way. I guess the consistency was just an illusion, as well as the idea that my actions and words contributed at all to it. I feel like such an idiot.

I need to go to bed to try to get rid of this emo. Probably the wisest course at this point. Maybe I'll get lucky and wake up numb tomorrow.


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## calvin

Sp,you sound a lot like CSS did.
The regret and remorse in you is strong,it should be.You messed up big time.
Also like CSS you are doing the best you can and trying hard.
We don't know what tomorrow,next week or next year holds.
You have plenty of worth,a lot of people care about you.
Kinda like the movie Its A Wonderful Life.
We have an affect on so many lives.
Gf might still have things to work through in her head,lords know I still do.
Be patient,she might be going through the anger phase right now.
You don't deserve any abuse but sometimes I feel the BS needs to vent.
CSS has taken my venting and turned it back to me with love,she kills me with her love.
She had to prove it to me.
Sad situation is it not?
Hang in there Sp,things will get better,with or with out gf.
I can tell you are one of the ones "who get it"
Looking forward to your progress.
Take care and keep us updated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mintypeas

hello everyone not been on here for a while but i have kept up with everyone and how you are all doing. we are doing well triggers getting less and we are happy. i still have my days when i have it playing on my mind but we talk its been harder lately as fwh has gone back to work and thats how the ea started but we talk about it and that i need the reassurance more now. well the news is that on thurs we renew our vows so we start our marriage on thurs and i will not let the ea enter our new life i cant garantee that i wont have things to ask but i feel deep in my gut that i know everything i need to know and i have come to accept that i will never know everything and that it happened and that i cant change it but that i will never allow this again i know the signs he knows the boundaries and he also knows i could throw him out at any time so im keeping him on his toes!!lol sorry for rambling but not spoken on here for a long time!!


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## soulpotato

GF finally texted me. There is no concern for how I might be feeling or anything. Nope. She starts off with actually blaming me for not "offering to spend positive time" earlier, before "things got bad", and that _I_ didn't "choose the positive" for the relationship. (Sounds like projection to me.) Before she blew up at me?? How is that possible, am I supposed to be telepathic? And why is responsibility for the whole relationship squarely in my lap? But I guess that's no different from before. Also, I am apparently not attentive enough because I didn't understand why she was so upset or know how much she was "holding back" (???). 

She listened to the recording again and thinks she sounded perfectly reasonable and that there was nothing wrong with anything she said or how she reacted. I am feeling really angry right now. It is like she is completely self-focused and out of touch with reality. I don't even know how to deal with this. I think about trying to have a calm conversation about all these things she just said and I feel angry. I do not know if I can stay calm if she keeps this up. WTF. I need some valium.


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## soulpotato

I can't believe that just a week ago we were talking about getting another set of bands to wear along with our originals to commemorate the beginning of the new relationship.  Things were going so well.


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## Decorum

Sorry its so hard for you right now Sp. You are a treasure don't sell yourself short. Take care!


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## soulpotato

calvin said:


> Sp,you sound a lot like CSS did.
> The regret and remorse in you is strong,it should be.You messed up big time.
> Also like CSS you are doing the best you can and trying hard.
> We don't know what tomorrow,next week or next year holds.
> You have plenty of worth,a lot of people care about you.
> Kinda like the movie Its A Wonderful Life.
> We have an affect on so many lives.
> Gf might still have things to work through in her head,lords know I still do.
> Be patient,she might be going through the anger phase right now.
> You don't deserve any abuse but sometimes I feel the BS needs to vent.
> CSS has taken my venting and turned it back to me with love,she kills me with her love.
> She had to prove it to me.
> Sad situation is it not?
> Hang in there Sp,things will get better,with or with out gf.
> I can tell you are one of the ones "who get it"
> Looking forward to your progress.
> Take care and keep us updated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, I just want to understand. There is nothing I can do if I don't know why she's so upset at me for something that doesn't seem to warrant it. And of course I have feelings, so being yelled at and then shut out for long stretches of time is very distressing to me, and it feels unfair and like she just doesn't want to be with me. Then to have blame put on me for something that even the most well-adjusted person wouldn't be able to do (know before she freaked out that she was going to freak out and shift space and time to be there instantly when needed) just makes it even more frustrating and discouraging. She is holding me to a standard she herself does not meet, and that drives me crazy. And she is not apologetic about any of it. 

Thank you.

If this is anger due to my EAs, she doesn't externalize it as such. And it's not a stage so much as intermittent surprise attacks.


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## soulpotato

Decorum said:


> Sorry its so hard for you right now Sp. You are a treasure don't sell yourself short. Take care!


Thank you, that is really sweet of you to say.


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## Forever Grateful

Ah football....the excuse some men use to drink before noon on Sundays. 

Oh well can't beat em, join em.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Ah football....the excuse some men use to drink before noon on Sundays.
> 
> Oh well can't beat em, join em.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can't watch football with out beer!
CSS had to take my son shopping for more school clothes,she should be back
Soon,she's a big Bears fan,I taught her everything she knows about football.
She's pretty good,she can spot a penalty a lot of the time before the Refs do.
CSS is making tacos (love her tacos).....there is a joke there but I'm not touching it.
Really good day for us.
Go Bears!! Rip off Petersons head and skull fvck it!!!!
I want blood!!!!
Sorry,I get carried away...
Got my Bears flag flying and later I'll have my freak flag flying.
FG...a man loves it when his lady watches the game with him.
For a few years CSS did'nt get into it but after awhile she became a huge fan.
TOUCHDOWN BEARS!!!!!
LOVE my wife,there is no one like her,she could never be replaced.
She's an excellent mother,wife,cook and a great wife.
She is the only one who keeps me on an even keel.
She's an exceptional woman.
Just like some of the ladies here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Calvin, I just want to understand. There is nothing I can do if I don't know why she's so upset at me for something that doesn't seem to warrant it. And of course I have feelings, so being yelled at and then shut out for long stretches of time is very distressing to me, and it feels unfair and like she just doesn't want to be with me. Then to have blame put on me for something that even the most well-adjusted person wouldn't be able to do (know before she freaked out that she was going to freak out and shift space and time to be there instantly when needed) just makes it even more frustrating and discouraging. She is holding me to a standard she herself does not meet, and that drives me crazy. And she is not apologetic about any of it.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> If this is anger due to my EAs, she doesn't externalize it as such. And it's not a stage so much as intermittent surprise attacks.


Sp,I understand,do all you can.I know it must be hard for GF since you had more than
one EA but your are very much worth taking a chance on,don't give up yet.
GF might be having a problem forgiving,I see you have learned and grown Sp,you seem true.
Your post show the remorse you have.
I don't know if I asked this before but is it possible to bring GF here?
You fvcked up Sp but your post show how much you love and care for GF.
Keep trying,GF needs to cut you some slack,if she won't after a few more months
Of you trying it might be time to move on.
Sp you have shown how a WS has learned so much,relized what you did and own it.
I had to own my crap that I did to CSS,I did offer MC to her three times.
She turned me down,I should have tried harder but I did'nt,that's my fault.
Me and CSS talk about you two and we see a possiblity that you both will
make it.
We also agree that Gf needs to calm down and do her work on the relationship also.
Both people have to be in it and try.
Hang in there Sp,we are thing and praying for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> You can't watch football with out beer!
> CSS had to take my son shopping for more school clothes,she should be back
> Soon,she's a big Bears fan,I taught her everything she knows about football.
> She's pretty good,she can spot a penalty a lot of the time before the Refs do.
> CSS is making tacos (love her tacos).....there is a joke there but I'm not touching it.
> Really good day for us.
> Go Bears!! Rip off Petersons head and skull fvck it!!!!
> I want blood!!!!
> Sorry,I get carried away...
> Got my Bears flag flying and later I'll have my freak flag flying.
> FG...a man loves it when his lady watches the game with him.
> For a few years CSS did'nt get into it but after awhile she became a huge fan.
> TOUCHDOWN BEARS!!!!!
> LOVE my wife,there is no one like her,she could never be replaced.
> She's an excellent mother,wife,cook and a great wife.
> She is the only one who keeps me on an even keel.
> She's an exceptional woman.
> Just like some of the ladies here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd rather have a mixed drink but whatever I'm having a Bud lite with RTBP. I've been trying to get into football for the past 2 seasons.

Speaking of tacos RTBP made some last night, they were delicious.

WTF? Did you just say skull f--k someone?!?! Holy S--t! 

Its sweet the way you express your love for CSS calvin. She's a lucky woman. I wish you both well.

Oh and yes...Go Bears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Sp,I understand,do all you can.I know it must be hard for GF since you had more than
> one EA but your are very much worth taking a chance on,don't give up yet.
> GF might be having a problem forgiving,I see you have learned and grown Sp,you seem true.
> Your post show the remorse you have.
> I don't know if I asked this before but is it possible to bring GF here?
> You fvcked up Sp but your post show how much you love and care for GF.
> Keep trying,GF needs to cut you some slack,if she won't after a few more months
> Of you trying it might be time to move on.
> Sp you have shown how a WS has learned so much,relized what you did and own it.
> I had to own my crap that I did to CSS,I did offer MC to her three times.
> She turned me down,I should have tried harder but I did'nt,that's my fault.
> Me and CSS talk about you two and we see a possiblity that you both will
> make it.
> We also agree that Gf needs to calm down and do her work on the relationship also.
> Both people have to be in it and try.
> Hang in there Sp,we are thing and praying for you both.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:
Ditto. I wish you well SP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I'd rather have a mixed drink but whatever I'm having a Bud lite with RTBP. I've been trying to get into football for the past 2 seasons.
> 
> Speaking of tacos RTBP made some last night, they were delicious.
> 
> WTF? Did you just say skull f--k someone?!?! Holy S--t!
> 
> Its sweet the way you express your love for CSS calvin. She's a lucky woman. I wish you both well.
> 
> Oh and yes...Go Bears.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah sorry about that FG,its the primeval feelings in us men.
CSS used to get kinda mad about the games,like I said it took her about 3-4 years to start
Getting into the game,she had a lot of questions and I was happy to answer them all.
Is rtbp getting loud.
We are having tech problems with the station showing the game....really starting to
PISS me off,this is one hell of a game,the Vikes are nothing to sniff at.
Very dangerous team.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'm a pretty lucky man FG.
I know CSS would give me a chance if I would have done something stupid.
Hell,I have done some stupid stuff in my time and CSS has stood by me.
She's just about the only one who can calm me down if I get hyped up for a reason.
She's a damn good girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Yeah sorry about that FG,its the primeval feelings in us men.
> CSS used to get kinda mad about the games,like I said it took her about 3-4 years to start
> Getting into the game,she had a lot of questions and I was happy to answer them all.
> Is rtbp getting loud.
> We are having tech problems with the station showing the game....really starting to
> PISS me off,this is one hell of a game,the Vikes are nothing to sniff at.
> Very dangerous team.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Heh yeah he's mad. He is on his laptop trying to find a stream of the game in case its still messed up. RTBP is willing to answer questions about the game as long as I ask them when the ball isn't in play. I'm earning my 'cool wife' points.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

They fixed it,game on!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Heh yeah he's mad. He is on his laptop trying to find a stream of the game in case its still messed up. RTBP is willing to answer questions about the game as long as I ask them when the ball isn't in play. I'm earning my 'cool wife' points.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cable is pissing me off. Somebody is going to get stabbed with a chicken wing bone.

I wonder if I can get FG to learn the game faster if I just have her watch me play Madden. 

And although you lost a few points from the obvious you still are pretty cool FG. Not many wives out there are willing to settle minor disputes with 1 vs 1 in Halo 4, or spend 7 hours in a movie theater to watch all the Marvel moives (and really enjoy it too), you know basketball (my favorite sport), and now you're learning football. You are pretty awesome. Meeting your primary love language (quality time) is pretty easy. To me I'm just hanging out with my best friend...who I nail on the reg.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Cable is pissing me off. Somebody is going to get stabbed with a chicken wing bone.
> 
> I wonder if I can get FG to learn the game faster if I just have her watch me play Madden.
> 
> And although you lost a few points from the obvious you still are pretty cool FG. Not many wives out there are willing to settle minor disputes with 1 vs 1 in Halo 4, or spend 7 hours in a movie theater to watch all the Marvel moives (and really enjoy it too), you know basketball (my favorite sport), and now you're learning football. You are pretty awesome. Meeting your primary love language (quality time) is pretty easy. To me I'm just hanging out with my best friend...who I nail on the reg.


Bunch of likes for that post.
You two will be fine.
Now.........let's see some heads ripped off and shove where the sun don't shine damn it!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Bunch of likes for that post.
> You two will be fine.
> Now.........let's see some heads ripped off and shove where the sun don't shine damn it!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks calvin. How bout we save the decapitations for the Packers?


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Cable is pissing me off. Somebody is going to get stabbed with a chicken wing bone.
> 
> I wonder if I can get FG to learn the game faster if I just have her watch me play Madden.
> 
> And although you lost a few points from the obvious you still are pretty cool FG. Not many wives out there are willing to settle minor disputes with 1 vs 1 in Halo 4, or spend 7 hours in a movie theater to watch all the Marvel moives (and really enjoy it too), you know basketball (my favorite sport), and now you're learning football. You are pretty awesome. Meeting your primary love language (quality time) is pretty easy. To me I'm just hanging out with my best friend...who I nail on the reg.


Ok 95% of that was so sweet and beautiful. I love nailing you too RTBP. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Thanks calvin. How bout we save the decapitations for the Packers?


I agree!!
CSS had to go to another store so I paused the game at half time so she could watch.
Got bed made,dishes done and garbage out while I waited.
She's home but has a major headache....uh oh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> I agree!!
> CSS had to go to another store so I paused the game at half time so she could watch.
> Got bed made,dishes done and garbage out while I waited.
> She's home but has a major headache....uh oh!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I got a headache too watching this game...all those goddamn turnovers!

Never mind, the Bears win.


----------



## calvin

Had the game paused and me and CSS just now saw the great BEARS VICTORY!!!
Me and CSS got pretty loud.
Excellent game!
Bears are for real,time to help with CSS's tacos.
Really great day today.
Hope everyone is doing good for others hang in there,things will get better.
Good people here on this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I am really sick with a nasty cold. I don't have time to be sick. Not allowed to call off the first 90 days. Ugg all those snotty faced kids gave it to me...calvin's language today...oh my. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> I am really sick with a nasty cold. I don't have time to be sick. Not allowed to call off the first 90 days. Ugg all those snotty faced kids gave it to me...calvin's language today...oh my. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hope you feel better soon. And you should hear the stuff that comes out of RTBP's mouth when he's playing Xbox....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I am really sick with a nasty cold. I don't have time to be sick. Not allowed to call off the first 90 days. Ugg all those snotty faced kids gave it to me...calvin's language today...oh my. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What? What did I say??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Hope you feel better soon. And you should hear the stuff that comes out of RTBP's mouth when he's playing Xbox....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh that is :bsflag:, your mouth is just as dirty as mine. Hell you're probably worse than me.


----------



## MattMatt

Refuse to be played said:


> Oh that is :bsflag:, your mouth is just as dirty as mine. Hell you're probably worse than me.


Probably not as bad as mine. I am dreadful for swearing!


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Probably not as bad as mine. I am dreadful for swearing!


Ah...it happens M&M..... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Oh that is :bsflag:, your mouth is just as dirty as mine. Hell you're probably worse than me.


:moon: 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

My memory sucks,I'm great with day to day things,never late on bills,work or stuff on the trucks or house.
yesterday I forgot our anniversary....whops
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> My memory sucks,I'm great with day to day things,never late on bills,work or stuff on the trucks or house.
> yesterday I forgot our anniversary....whops
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


R.I.P. calvin, you will be missed.....


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> :moon:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now that you mention it....
:moon::whip:
Hinty hint hint...


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> R.I.P. calvin, you will be missed.....


She forgot it also....ain't that a b!tch?
Lot been going on with her new job,kids going back to school but yes.
We both forgot,that's a first so I'm safe man,so is she.
This has never happend.
We laughed it off and decided we will do something next weekend.
Nite all,great Bears victory today!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> She forgot it also....ain't that a b!tch?
> Lot been going on with her new job,kids going back to school but yes.
> We both forgot,that's a first so I'm safe man,so is she.
> This has never happend.
> We laughed it off and decided we will do something next weekend.
> Nite all,great Bears victory today!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well hope you guys plan something nice and have fun.

And apparently Cutler's new nickname is 'Mr. 4th Quarter' according to ESPNChicago.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Well hope you guys plan something nice and have fun.
> 
> And apparently Cutler's new nickname is 'Mr. 4th Quarter' according to ESPNChicago.


Great start to the season,they will get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

Last night, I was thinking some thoughts from the past, and let out a sigh... (actually progress right?) Anyway.. my wife I notice is sniffling.. then I realize she's crying, I ask her whats wrong.. she's saying how she ruined everything, and how she doesn't deserve a second chance and stuff.. I was thinking it was the fact that I sounded depressed or something, so I asked what was wrong.. she didn't say at first, just kept saying she was sorry.. so so sorry... then she said, "when I went to get the card for your sister (her dog died), I was looking at anniversary cards for you.. but I can't get one.. because I ruined everything..." Our wedding anniversary is in the middle of Nov.. We've been doing pretty good.. not sure why she felt the need to torture herself on this day.

I should also add that I think she's feeling bad because my daughter wants a birthday party, (she's turning 20) with the 'family', and the wife is trying to tell her it'd be uncomfortable for everyone, that parties with the family.. it's just too soon, and selfish daughter is putting on heavy guilt trip (must need presents). My argument is that big family 'birthday parties' should end at a certain age, and 20 is a good cut-off, I'd prefer 12 or 15... but hey that's me. Let the family send cards, take her to dinner... I don't see the big deal, I'd rather not have a party even if I wasn't all hating on her sister and not wanting to look at her cheating mother right now. First off, I'd do it if I had to (would argue against but could compromise, like no sister x and sure..), the wife doesn't want to and I appreciate her trying to keep me comfortable without putting it on me.. making herself the bad guy. Kids of course see through it, and know she's doing it becuase of me, so they are angry with me.. now she feels bad because of that... yea, I'm about ready for the girls to move out.. son can stay since he's still under 18. 

One other thing I just thought of.. she kept mentioning how she let us all down, how she disappointed us all.. I try to keep her as positive as I can, knock her out of the self-loathing stuff..


----------



## calvin

Christ I hate Mondays,the one day weekends just don't get it and no CSS til
Nine o'clock tonight.
Hell I'll be in bed,have to get up at 2:30am.
Who's going to make my lunch for tomorrow!!???!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

:scratchhead:And you don't know where the kitchen is?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Russell
> 
> I ruined everything..."
> 
> she kept mentioning how she let us all down, how she disappointed us all.. I try to keep her as positive as I can, knock her out of the self-loathing stuff





Russell
You sound like a man that is willing to suffer and R and your wife is showing remorsefulness and pain.

*Put your arm around her and tell her that you are going to be by her side as you both suffer the consequences and keep working hard to put the family back together.*Tell her that you nor her are Humpty Dumpty and you and her are going to be put back together because you are now a team.


*Tell her that self loathing is the consequences of doing the wrong thing but that self loathing can be defeated by doing the right thing starting RIGHT NOW and in the future!* Ask her if your are willing to fight for her is she willing to fight for herself and her family?


I know that self loathing is very common in situations of infidelity but it does not have to dominate or be permanent. Her future can be a lot better


Right now you and your wife are more important than a birthday party. Maybe both of you can write a poem or a note telling your daughter how much she means to both of you. That would mean more to me than a party or some other presents


----------



## russell28

I do comfort her and remind her that she's doing good things now, and making good choices.. She's been reading and doing positive affirmations, she's doing pretty good as far as not beating herself up as much (that I see) .. I just think the combo of the birthday party thing (kids being insensitive, not understanding the scope of R) and looking at anniversary cards pushed her over...

I know as positive as I can be as a person, there are days where you're just not feeling it, and have to fight off the negative with more effort.


----------



## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> :scratchhead:And you don't know where the kitchen is?


What's a kitchen?

I can handle my lunch,just going to miss her,hate going all day without seeing her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

RTBP had a longer break in between classes today so he came home and took a nap. I finally got the chance to wake him like calvin says CSS does. I caressed his face and gave him kisses, gently telling him to wake up. He was very receptive and even wanted to escalate the intimacy but he had class so rain check. Definitely the highlight of my day so far so thanks calvin and CSS!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Good day so far but I'm nervous about tomorrow. It's when my ex-boss first started messaging me inappropriately. I know RTBP is thinking about it since he made note of it last week but he has been ok today as far as I can tell. He even tried to initiate sex which he never does if he is triggering. I'm trying to be proactive and nip any triggers for tomorrow in the bud.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> RTBP had a longer break in between classes today so he came home and took a nap. I finally got the chance to wake him like calvin says CSS does. I caressed his face and gave him kisses, gently telling him to wake up. He was very receptive and even wanted to escalate the intimacy but he had class so rain check. Definitely the highlight of my day so far so thanks calvin and CSS!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love it when she wakes me up like that,first thing I see is her beautiful face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Thanks for the idea. He really enjoyed it too. He didn't want to go back to class.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Thanks for the idea. He really enjoyed it too. He didn't want to go back to class.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I bet he did'nt,it also gets me going a little.
Wish I could be woke up like that every morning instead the the damn alarm
clock,its sweet of her and makes me feel very loved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Got to make my lunch soon,2:30 comes early.
Hmmmm.....pizza rolls sandwhich?
Don't sound bad...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Had a long talk with GF yesterday. Things are better, but not totally okay. I still feel emotionally battered. Anyway, during yesterday's conversation, I was trying super hard to be calm and open and understanding, and kept asking her questions. Apparently her extreme emotional reactivity is because she starts getting way ahead of herself and thinking that any time something vaguely resembles the past (whether it's situational or just certain types of conflict), it means that things with us are going right back to the way they were when they were really bad -- and she reacts to that. Told her that it is kind of a problem since we're working on a new relationship and new ways of doing things. We don't want old ways of reacting, or any self-fulfilling prophecies. And unfortunately, when she decides that I'm not saying things the right way or being understanding enough, she just abandons me and the relationship and does the "every person for herself" thing, which, uh...doesn't do us any favors. She said she felt she couldn't trust me to take care of her, so she just decided to worry about herself. (Boy did it show, too.) It is really tough to be a team like that. Not the first time it has happened, but certainly the most recent.

Fortunately therapy is tomorrow, but an hour is not nearly enough. Once again, I asked that she get back into IC and also be assessed for bipolar (as suggested by my therapist during one of our joint sessions months ago).


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> I bet he did'nt,it also gets me going a little.
> Wish I could be woke up like that every morning instead the the damn alarm
> clock,its sweet of her and makes me feel very loved.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You guys are making me envious. GF would never do something like that. She would think it was way too "sappy", and sentimentality makes her uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> You guys are making me envious. GF would never do something like that. She would think it was way too "sappy", and sentimentality makes her uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable.


Sorry Sp.
I can understand if gf triggers sometimes but she also has to show she's working
on the relationship and she should have good days,both of you should.
I can have a bad day but then the next week will be really nice for us.
Bad days are less and less,I have chosen R because I love CSS and I know she
should get a chance,she shows me real love and she is just doing a lot of things right.
Being woken up like that is a little sappy but it feels good,attention feels good.
Hugs,kisses little love notes,its showing how much you care so if its sappy that's fine
With me.
We are pretty damn close,that's the way we want it.
Its love.
We're thinking of you guys,CSS talks about you and its a lot of good stuff.
Hope GF comes around soon and starts to allow herself to be happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

So far the day hasn't gone as bad as I thought it would. RTBP hasn't triggered or at least he hasn't told me if he had. I've been trying to take his mind off of it regardless I've been sending him texts all day. Mostly how much I love him, how I hope we can get past this, and plans for the future. I went to meet him for lunch and he seemed fine, he let me hold his hand when we walked but he didn't want to talk about it when I would ask if he was okay. Other than that he seems pretty normal. I've been doing whatever I can to make today go as smoothly as possible for RTBP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Good afternoon, glad you found the kitchen calvin hope your lunch was nutritious. Triggering again today every time the WH touches me I wonder about her. It does not make for pleasant feelings and anger issues come up again. Make sure you get the resolve about the nature of the relationship. We have MC tomorrow so looking forward to addressing this issue again. No new good memories can be made if the old is still haunting you.


----------



## calvin

I eat a lot of fruits and vegatables,just always liked that stuff,couple sandwhiches on rye.
I moved into my first appartment when I was 17 and I am a good cook.
Got little bit of laundry to do,some dishes....not much.
Things are pretty good but out of nowhere I think How the hell could you CSS"!?
She put herself in danger and trusted the idiot off the bat,I'll never get it.
I still want his dentures on my shelf and in good time it will happen.
Yeah the triggers suck,I just try and suck it in and ride it out,they go away.
I know how bad CSS feels but sometimes it bothers me she does not know the deepth
Of the pain I had to deal with.
Even with her being true and remorseful it still hurts sometimes but what you going to do?
Hope you're doing decent jup,hope MC is helping.
Wonding about Sp.How's things Sp?
FG? RTBP? B1,EI and everyone else?
I hate this sh!t but it could have been worse and things are still moving in the
Right direction.
Oh well........sigh.
Hang in there people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> So far the day hasn't gone as bad as I thought it would. RTBP hasn't triggered or at least he hasn't told me if he had. I've been trying to take his mind off of it regardless I've been sending him texts all day. Mostly how much I love him, how I hope we can get past this, and plans for the future. I went to meet him for lunch and he seemed fine, he let me hold his hand when we walked but he didn't want to talk about it when I would ask if he was okay. Other than that he seems pretty normal. I've been doing whatever I can to make today go as smoothly as possible for RTBP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Missed that some how,good FG,not great but that sounds fairly good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

I can't really tell how's he doing. He says he has though about it but he has been staying distracted at class and now that he's home he still doesn't want to talk about it. All he's been doing is playing a video game he got today. Should I just drop it for now? I don't want to smoother him but I don't want him to think I'm not serious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I can't really tell how's he doing. He says he has though about it but he has been staying distracted at class and now that he's home he still doesn't want to talk about it. All he's been doing is playing a video game he got today. Should I just drop it for now? I don't want to smoother him but I don't want him to think I'm not serious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Drop it for now but also let him know that if there is anything he needs..anything
talk,a hug some space...hell a sandwich....just let him know you're there for him
when he's ready.
You don't know how he feels? I'm sure you do but that's ok,I didn't know how I felt
Myself half the time...I'd cycle back and forth,bad thoughts and then good thoughts.
He's struggling,thinking and trying to keep his head together.
Be patient FG,he's still there and that means a lot.
I'm not the type to give up easy and I don't think he is either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> I eat a lot of fruits and vegatables,just always liked that stuff,couple sandwhiches on rye.
> I moved into my first appartment when I was 17 and I am a good cook.
> Got little bit of laundry to do,some dishes....not much.
> *Things are pretty good but out of nowhere I think How the hell could you CSS"!?
> She put herself in danger and trusted the idiot off the bat,I'll never get it.*
> I still want his dentures on my shelf and in good time it will happen.
> Yeah the triggers suck,I just try and suck it in and ride it out,they go away.
> I know how bad CSS feels but sometimes it bothers me she does not know the deepth
> Of the pain I had to deal with.
> Even with her being true and remorseful it still hurts sometimes but what you going to do?
> Hope you're doing decent jup,hope MC is helping.
> Wonding about Sp.How's things Sp?
> FG? RTBP? B1,EI and everyone else?
> I hate this sh!t but it could have been worse and things are still moving in the
> Right direction.
> Oh well........sigh.
> Hang in there people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jeez, Calvin! I just got it! At least, I think I do!

She trusted him because she trusts you. You are such a diamond geezer that she somehow expected he would be, too.

Only you are a real diamond geezer, he only plays the part of one. Plus she went a bit mad for a while, too.

*Diamond Geezer: <i>Noun. A really wonderful man, helpful and reliable; a gem of a man. A commonly heard extension to 'diamond'.</i>


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Jeez, Calvin! I just got it! At least, I think I do!
> 
> She trusted him because she trusts you. You are such a diamond geezer that she somehow expected he would be, too.
> 
> Only you are a real diamond geezer, he only plays the part of one. Plus she went a bit mad for a while, too.
> 
> *Diamond Geezer: <i>Noun. A really wonderful man, helpful and reliable; a gem of a man. A commonly heard extension to 'diamond'.</i>


I never thought about it like that "M&M", I get what you're saying but I would not trust
Anyone that quickly,CSS a little mad? Yep.
Love her and she's doing and showing the right stuff? Yep again.
No way to slice itit still hurts but keeps getting better and I'm in the game.
Still can be hard after 19 months but I know I...we...are going to be fine.
Well on our way,come to far to turn back now.
I miss her when I come home from work and she isn't home so,I know this is right.
It feels right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Did a good job on the house,had plans to get naked....one of my nice sisters was hacked
And had her identity stolen,they got almost everything,she doesn't have a land line
So she's been over here for awhile trying to straighten things out over my home phone.
Her cell,modem and computer have been taken over,bastards are even
controlling it remotely,these pr!cks are good.
So there goes my roll in the hay tonight....UGH!!!.
Oh well,always tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> Sorry Sp.
> I can understand if gf triggers sometimes but she also has to show she's working
> on the relationship and she should have good days,both of you should.
> I can have a bad day but then the next week will be really nice for us.
> Bad days are less and less,I have chosen R because I love CSS and I know she
> should get a chance,she shows me real love and she is just doing a lot of things right.
> Being woken up like that is a little sappy but it feels good,attention feels good.
> Hugs,kisses little love notes,its showing how much you care so if its sappy that's fine
> With me.
> We are pretty damn close,that's the way we want it.
> Its love.
> We're thinking of you guys,CSS talks about you and its a lot of good stuff.
> Hope GF comes around soon and starts to allow herself to be happy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Calvin.  To CSS, too. I'm glad you two are doing well. I often talk about you guys and others on here to GF. She likes hearing about everyone, but I still can't persuade her to come on herself. I am still trying to break down GF's reserve when it comes to anything sweet or sentimental. Pretty sure she will need a therapist's help to learn how to stay emotionally connected and be comfortable with emotional intimacy. She has always had this problem, not something that just came about with my EAs. (I hope she does, too! I just want to love her and feel loved by her.)


----------



## soulpotato

Calvin, we had our session tonight. It was pretty emotionally charged and we were tense, but we were both in a good mood by the time we went our separate ways. This sh!t is hard, no mistake. We are both still hurting from the issues we had this weekend. But as long as GF wants to do this, I will be there. There is nothing more important to me than she is, so I will do whatever I need to do to make this work.


----------



## calvin

Yes it is hard Sp but it sounds like some positive stuff is happening for you
Both right now,I hope it keeps going.
Night guys,been up since 2:30 am and I gotta do it again tomorrow.
Yawwnnn...tired.
Have a good day tomorrow Y'all.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Oh,her curiosity will get the best of her,I bet she'll check Tams out sooner or later.
I need someone to carry me to bed.

CSS?
Ah,I'll crawl
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

This reconciliation takes a lot of time for the BS to feel a little comfortable. Calvin and I have been through a very rough road. It scared the crap outa me, but I just knew with time he would get better. The distance and or anger will be there here and there but it will get better if you stick it out and don't give up. If she is abusing you tho...you may have to consider moving on without GF. Now I am gonna crawl in bed with the best husband ever. Goodnight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

I've got another question. :scratchhead:
When in counseling how often should you be going? Is once a month reasonable? How about every 2 weeks for the first 6 weeks then once a month?

Next I am triggering again tonight. I thought I would be nice and not make WH feel like I was putting him on the spot so I sent him questions viva email. Well that email goes unread while he has answered others that deal mostly about stuff that is happening in the present. Anything that deals with my feelings he puts on the side burner for anything else that is so much more pressing including the dogs. He says I just won't let anything go. Yeah right, not in this life time til I get what I want.

My problem while we have returned to intimate encounters and they are always great. She is always there when we are done with the same unanswered questions my after glow turns dark and I relive the feelings of not being good enough or young enough and worthless. Sort of spoils everything. He turns over to go to sleep and I get up to busy myself with something and cry. I don't think this is going to stop until my questions are all answered. Then he just answered a couple questions that contradict something he said before. Yet he claims he don't remember where and when he didn't mark a calender and it wasn't that important. Where have I heard these lines before? MC tomorrow and I think this is the top of my list. Needing comments here please oh wise ones.....
Also if it was so terrible and lacking in any emotionally full filling way how come he isn't able to be more sexually active now? 

This got to me too. My anniversary card is all about "For better or Worst." I'm sorry but how can someone quote the vows when they broke those vows making them are null and void? This card made me feel cheap and used. None of that stuff means a hill of beans anymore. We have no boundaries in place no vows nothing more than him saying "I'm sorry it won't happen again," and "I love you with all my heart." SO F~*KING WHAT! issed:I am also having a hard time that he is no longer "MY" husband, he's who ever he's with toy boy. I have to live with the fact that I have to share him with her the rest of our life, that hurts. I want to hurt him so bad ring his neck stomp on some toes and punch him in the face. He was so worried that I went out and slept around when I left that one night after it came out it had been burning inside of him. You should have seen the look on his face when I told him no I was still all his. God, I wish I had now. This is not fair. Sorry temper tantrum here feeling better. Thank you

I need to go finish my floor. Yes it's midnight and I'm waxing the dinning room floor


----------



## calvin

Jup,we went to MC once a week,I feel that's best,if you are not getting your
questions answered or even if you are bring them up in MC.
Its natural for you to want him to feel the pain you are going through,I wanted CSS
To get a tast of it but there is only one way to do that and I could'nt.
Some months ago CSS brought up renewing our vows,I won't do it,its too much
for me,I highly doubt she will ever do this again but the vows we took to begine
with seem cheap somehow now to me.
He should answer all your questions,even the same ones over and over until you are
comfortable you have the answers you need.
It may not seem like it but it all will get better,be patient and give it time.
I know what your saying about how he's no longer "your" husband.
CSS told the scumbag at least twenty times that she loved him,that still hurts.
I remember when I gave her the "its him or me" choice.
She said she wanted him and grabbed her purse and walked out the door.
That was the most painful experience I ever went through.
It will get better,trust me but he has to be open and understand what he put you through.
Try counseling once a week,if its too much cut back.
Also does your counselor have experience with infidelity?
If not find one who does,our first counselor was a joke,the second was pretty good,the
third and last one we had was very good,so shop around if you feel you need to.
I'm sorry your feeling like this,it WILL get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Can I join? Maybe this is where I need to be.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



hibiscus said:


> Can I join? Maybe this is where I need to be.


can you join? Why wouldn't you want to join? Look at all the wonderful people here and from what I've read you belong here with us. You don't need a initiation. Welcome


----------



## cpacan

jupiter13 said:


> I've got another question. :scratchhead:
> When in counseling how often should you be going? Is once a month reasonable? How about every 2 weeks for the first 6 weeks then once a month?
> 
> Next I am triggering again tonight. I thought I would be nice and not make WH feel like I was putting him on the spot so I sent him questions viva email. Well that email goes unread while he has answered others that deal mostly about stuff that is happening in the present. Anything that deals with my feelings he puts on the side burner for anything else that is so much more pressing including the dogs. He says I just won't let anything go. Yeah right, not in this life time til I get what I want.
> *It's easy to say to another person "just let it go" - especially when not letting go of it triggers guilt within himself. I think you need to get it all out there for you to heal - maybe that should be the topic for MC?*
> 
> My problem while we have returned to intimate encounters and they are always great. She is always there when we are done with the same unanswered questions my after glow turns dark and I relive the feelings of not being good enough or young enough and worthless. Sort of spoils everything. He turns over to go to sleep and I get up to busy myself with something and cry. I don't think this is going to stop until my questions are all answered. Then he just answered a couple questions that contradict something he said before. Yet he claims he don't remember where and when he didn't mark a calender and it wasn't that important. Where have I heard these lines before? MC tomorrow and I think this is the top of my list. Needing comments here please oh wise ones.....
> Also if it was so terrible and lacking in any emotionally full filling way how come he isn't able to be more sexually active now?
> *He need to commit to the marriage again and to healing. This isn't possible if he's holding back information. Does your MC understand this, or is he/she moving on to the next step without adressing existing issues?*
> 
> This got to me too. My anniversary card is all about "For better or Worst." I'm sorry but how can someone quote the vows when they broke those vows making them are null and void? This card made me feel cheap and used. None of that stuff means a hill of beans anymore. We have no boundaries in place no vows nothing more than him saying "I'm sorry it won't happen again," and "I love you with all my heart." SO F~*KING WHAT! issed:
> *Yes, symbols get a different meaning - I'm quite familiar with that. Time will help you deal with it differently, not necessarily better though*
> 
> I am also having a hard time that he is no longer "MY" husband, he's who ever he's with toy boy. I have to live with the fact that I have to share him with her the rest of our life, that hurts. I want to hurt him so bad ring his neck stomp on some toes and punch him in the face. He was so worried that I went out and slept around when I left that one night after it came out it had been burning inside of him. You should have seen the look on his face when I told him no I was still all his. God, I wish I had now. This is not fair. Sorry temper tantrum here feeling better. Thank you
> *Your welcome - of course you're angry - it will fade eventually, and by then i suspect that a bit of sadness may appear - not quite sure what's on the other side - happyness and joy, I'll tell you when I get there.*
> 
> I need to go finish my floor. Yes it's midnight and I'm waxing the dinning room floor


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> can you join? Why wouldn't you want to join? Look at all the wonderful people here and from what I've read you belong here with us. You don't need a initiation. Welcome


No initiation?!?! RTBP said I had to run around the block in the nude! That lying SOB! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> No initiation?!?! RTBP said I had to run around the block in the nude! That lying SOB!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol That was supposed to read invitation but my phone's spell checker had other ideas.


----------



## hibiscus

Forever Grateful said:


> No initiation?!?! RTBP said I had to run around the block in the nude! That lying SOB!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol I will do the same if it makes you feel better


----------



## hibiscus

Looking forward to meeting everyone ;-)


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> Can I join? Maybe this is where I need to be.


Howdy hibiscus,been following your thread.
Welcome
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> No initiation?!?! RTBP said I had to run around the block in the nude! That lying SOB!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah,CSS fell for that one also!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

calvin said:


> Howdy hibiscus,been following your thread.
> Welcome
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Howdy Calvin 
So how many on this thread in R?


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> Howdy Calvin
> So how many on this thread in R?


Never really counted but I'd say around ten couples and maybe another 10 
individuals who are married,all of us in different stages of R.
How bout it bfree,how many of us here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

calvin said:


> Never really counted but I'd say around ten couples and maybe another 10
> individuals who are married,all of us in different stages of R.
> How bout it bfree,how many of us here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that's promising. This thread is like the calm amongst the storm.

Incase no one knows my story, my Dday was July 2013. We started R in Dec 2013.Its been a tough journey but its getting better. Much much better. I still have days when I trigger but I am able to let them go now. The thought comes into my head and then leaves very quickly. If I have problems with my triggers then my STBH is there ready to listen and reassure.


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> Well that's promising. This thread is like the calm amongst the storm.
> 
> Incase no one knows my story, my Dday was July 2013. We started R in Dec 2013.Its been a tough journey but its getting better. Much much better. I still have days when I trigger but I am able to let them go now. The thought comes into my head and then leaves very quickly. If I have problems with my triggers then my STBH is there ready to listen and reassure.


Yep,19 months in R for me and CantSitStill,having a spose with genuine remorse
Is a must.
I feel my R was different because her ex con,ex hs bf kept taunting me for over a year ( threats to come to my house ).
I still get a fb msg from the coward under a phoney screen name once in awhile.
I learned to ignore the loser.
Its been hard but we keep getting better. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Some really good people here,strong caring people.
FBS and FWS alike.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Never really counted but I'd say around ten couples and maybe another 10
> individuals who are married,all of us in different stages of R.
> How bout it bfree,how many of us here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If say that's about right fit the regular posters. And then of course there are the occasional drive by's. But always respectful.


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Lol I will do the same if it makes you feel better


Hi hibiscus! Welcome, and no you don't have to go streaking. 

My H is Refuse to be played. I'm the WS who had an A with my ex-boss for 2 months on business trips. Dday was 3 months ago when I confessed but my A ended in early Feb. I realize I was/am a hair's breadth away from losing my husband and I'm doing everything I can to make this right and better myself as a person. This site and this thread in particular have been a great help for both of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Yesterday was the day my ex-boss started fishing. RTBP handle it ok on the outside but he would never want to talk about his feelings even though I made sure to let him know that I was willing to talk if he wanted. How rare is it that the BS is the one that doesn't really want to sit down and discuss the A? He doesn't want anyone and especially me since I was the one to hurt him get really emotional. He always been the type to hide his pain and fears. Since Dday he has only cried in front of me twice. Once at MC and the other time after getting drunk. Neither time would he let me console or touch him. Its frustrating because when he is suffering I WANT to be there for him to hold him and console him but he rarely ever gives me the opportunity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Nice to meet you all. I am amazed at the couples on here?! How did you persuade the other to post on this thread? Was it a mutual decision?
TAM is kept hidden from my STBH although he knows that I post a lot on this forum.


----------



## soulpotato

FG, GF is kind of similar with regard to discussing my EAs and her feelings about my betrayal. It comes in bits and pieces, often when I least expect it. Last night after therapy was one of those times. She said, "I felt you were just lying to me before I moved out when we were having those close times. Even though we were technically separated. Because I knew you were still talking to HER." I then had the opportunity to explain (re-explain?) that those times were real, but that I'd had no idea that GF was having second thoughts about moving out & being separated. I said if I'd known, I would've abandoned OW then because I was only in contact with her to distract myself from feeling GF's rejection. I further elaborated that I was still running on my old messed up thinking back then, not realizing that GF had no way to approach me or feel safe when an OW was still around. Basically whenever I felt bad, I'd look for someone to distract me and make me feel better. I had no tolerance of those bad feelings that came from having problems with GF. I'm still working on that tolerance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Hibiscus, welcome to the R thread. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Hi soulpotato. Love your name by the way


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> Nice to meet you all. I am amazed at the couples on here?! How did you persuade the other to post on this thread? Was it a mutual decision?
> TAM is kept hidden from my STBH although he knows that I post a lot on this forum.


 I showed CSS Tams a couple times when I knew something was up,she'd read a few post
and did'nt want anything to do with it.
After I let her back in the house she started reading more and more,she learned a lot
and started understanding the magnitude and the depth of what was going on with us and our family.
She listened and took in a lot of advice.
She post regularly now for well over a year and now gives advice and shared her feelings.
I'm pretty sure she set a couple people straight who were thinking of having an A.
We both wish we would have found this site sooner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Hi all. I just wanted to pop in and repost something I read of Beowulf's early on that had a huge impact on me. SP and FG, I know it's frustrating when you want to help, and console your partner, I wanted that too. But you have to recognize that you are the face of the love they lost AND the face of the villain that cost them that love at the same time. I know Matt and I talked a lot about how confusing and hard that was for him to want to be held by me and not want to be anywhere near me at the same time. I believe our love and effort can help make the difference between making progress toward healing and just surviving through an incredibly painful ordeal, but at the same time, we can never undo that betrayal. And there's the tough dichotomy. 

Anyway, this is some really good reading, especially the parts I bolded.




Beowulf said:


> I know this post is not going to sit well with most WS here but in my opinion there seems to be a lot of difficulty understanding the pain the BS goes through after an affair is discovered. I know the WS is dealing with a lot of intense emotions such as guilt, shame, remorse, regret. But there seems to be a definite disconnect that I thought I'd address. While I am not the most intelligent or articulate person here on TAM I thought I’d try to describe the way my wife and I have come to understand the difference and how we related it to each other.
> 
> A person who has an affair does indeed have to deal with a lot of pain in the aftermath. They have to reevaluate their own identity and who they really are and their willingness to cause so much suffering to their loved ones. The statements “it’s just not in me to cheat” and “I could never do that” are in direct conflict with their actions. They have to come to the painful conclusion that they indeed are not the absolute good person they thought they were. They have to realize that there was something in them that allowed them to be selfish and cruel to the person or people they most cherished. And the scariest part is that they have to realize that since they’ve done it once they can do it again. Those self examinations are extremely difficult but necessary if the WS wants to become the person they always thought they already were and hope to actually become.
> 
> Here is where it gets hard for as much difficulty the WS has to go through they truly cannot comprehend the pain and anguish the BS has to endure. I want you to understand and remember two words. These are two very important words and it will help you to understand what your spouse is probably feeling even if they can’t express it. *When they discovered your affair…YOU DIED! Let me say it again…YOU DIED! The person that your husband/wife married is gone forever. *Think about a time when you lost someone really close to you. A father, mother, sister, brother, son, daughter, or spouse. Think of the grief that you had to deal with. That is the same grief that your spouse has to deal with each and every day. *Every day that they wake up after D-Day you die again and they feel it again and it's just as intense. The feelings of loneliness, hopelessness, yes…anger (why did you leave me?) *Can you even imagine the pain that he/she is going through? Probably not. Because you are the one that had died and they are the one that is left to pick up the pieces of a shattered life that was taken from. They are the ones that are left to deal with the loss of a loved one.
> 
> *But here is the sick part. You are still here; but you aren’t! You are a doppelganger, a clone, an evil twin. You are the one that killed your spouse’s cherished love. *You took the love of his/her life away forever violently and without mercy. You stabbed them, mutilated them, burned them and ultimately buried them. You are the monster that has torn up a family. You are the monster that has committed such a senseless heinous act. You are a murderer! And here's the part that most WS miss. *You were aware of your actions. You stalked your husband/wife's spouse. You planned how to do it. You conspired with another murderer (the OM/OW) and you finally struck without warning and without honor. The BS was left in shock and dismay watching their cherished lover, friend, partner, confidant bleed to death in the street. They felt hopeless and helpless as the person they loved most in the world was taken from them. Their world...you...died that day.*
> 
> And you want the grieving person to forgive you. Love you. Stay with you. Think about that for a minute. *You, the pod person, the evil clone, the look alike murderer that destroyed the one person in life that your spouse cherished beyond all time and space want the sorrow filled, grief stricken, angry and injured beyond belief person to LOVE YOU?* They had this involuntarily inflicted upon them. They had no choice. Only pain. And now you want them to choose to love you.* Can you imagine going up to the person that murdered your loved one and choosing to love them?*
> 
> Now you have a little glimpse into the psyche of your betrayed spouse. You also know why I always tell people that the old marriage is dead and the couple must learn to love each other as new…if they can. It is also why I recommend the betrayed spouse read “Just Let Them Go” even if they want to reconcile. *Because you truly have to let the cheating spouse go in order to learn to hopefully love the new version of your husband/wife. It’s hard and it’s painful and it can only be done if the WS does everything to make the BS fall in love with them again.*


----------



## calvin

Thanks Mrs.
I miss Beo and Morrigan,they helped us out in a huge way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Nice to meet you all. I am amazed at the couples on here?! How did you persuade the other to post on this thread? Was it a mutual decision?
> TAM is kept hidden from my STBH although he knows that I post a lot on this forum.


Well for us RTBP found TAM first and after Dday I was searching frantically to find something to help. He saw that I been here and told me how he was already posting here. I asked if it was alright if I did as well and he said he didn't care. I mostly stick to this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Hi all. I just wanted to pop in and repost something I read of Beowulf's early on that had a huge impact on me. SP and FG, I know it's frustrating when you want to help, and console your partner, I wanted that too. But you have to recognize that you are the face of the love they lost AND the face of the villain that cost them that love at the same time. I know Matt and I talked a lot about how confusing and hard that was for him to want to be held by me and not want to be anywhere near me at the same time. I believe our love and effort can help make the difference between making progress toward healing and just surviving through an incredibly painful ordeal, but at the same time, we can never undo that betrayal. And there's the tough dichotomy.
> 
> Anyway, this is some really good reading, especially the parts I bolded.


Thank you for this Mrs M. Difficult to read but very informative. This problem predated my A but it definitely made it worse. Its hard fighting off the urge to be with him when I can clearly hear him cry or tell that he is hurting. We too have briefly spoken about conflicting emotions. He says mind movies make him go from loving and desiring me one moment to hating me and being repulsed the next. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Well for us RTBP found TAM first and after Dday I was searching frantically to find something to help. He saw that I been here and told me how he was already posting here. I asked if it was alright if I did as well and he said he didn't care. I mostly stick to this thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WS can get treated pretty bad on Tams,most of them don't deserve to be treated like crap.
If they are here and posting and learning then I believe they deseve a shot.
A few deserve it but there are only a couple I can think of that came here to throw their spouses
off the scent.
This thread is pretty safe ( thank you B1 & EI ) safe for all,we get an idiot in here once in awhile
but not often.
When a WS comes here they learn how deep the damage they did goes.I feel both the BS and WS learn 
how they both contributed to the marriage sucking ass when it could have been good all along.
We all got married for a reason right? Love.
Anyhow,CSS will be home in a couple hours and I just have to go through the bills.
I'll be glad when she gets here,I want to get lucky!!
Umm....we're playing chutes and ladders tonight...that's it.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Mrs M, thank you for posting that. I have actually read it a couple of times, and it greatly helped me when I first came to TAM in understanding the depth and breadth of the destruction I had wreaked upon GF and our relationship, and how I was the one who took away who and what she loved. I understand that there are times that she won't want to see me because of that, when she will be repelled, but it is still hard. But I am lucky in more ways than one.


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Hi soulpotato. Love your name by the way


Thank you!  I hope you'll stick around on the R thread.


----------



## soulpotato

Oh, something bad about therapy last night. The therapist only wants to work with us as a couple once a month.  She wants to focus more on me now. So I guess we are going to have to find a back-up sooner rather than later.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Thank you for this Mrs M. Difficult to read but very informative. This problem predated my A but it definitely made it worse. Its hard fighting off the urge to be with him when I can clearly hear him cry or tell that he is hurting. We too have briefly spoken about conflicting emotions. He says mind movies make him go from loving and desiring me one moment to hating me and being repulsed the next.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like FG said before it is a problem of mine that existed long before the A. I am working on it though. I feel uncomfortable and awkward getting emotional like this in front of others. When I was around 6-7 I was frequently afraid and cried over my parents fighting over my dads cheating. I was basically told by others in my environment to suck it up, really men don't cry, and even told by my teen cousin to stop acting like a little b###h. Basically expressing anger was cool but fear and sorrow weren't. By the time I hit double digits. I had learned to keep all that stuff to myself. So I have no problem expressing anger but its weird with other negative emotions. Yes I am going over crap like this in IC. The plan is to bring FG to one of my sessions when I feel ready. Its not like I'm off doing nothing for our R, I'm fixing my s### too.


----------



## Brokenshadow

Refuse to be played said:


> Like FG said before it is a problem of mine that existed long before the A. I am working on it though. I feel uncomfortable and awkward getting emotional like this in front of others. When I was around 6-7 I was frequently afraid and cried over my parents fighting over my dads cheating. I was basically told by others in my environment to suck it up, really men don't cry, and even told by my teen cousin to stop acting like a little b###h. Basically expressing anger was cool but fear and sorrow weren't. By the time I hit double digits. I had learned to keep all that stuff to myself. So I have no problem expressing anger but its weird with other negative emotions. Yes I am going over crap like this in IC. The plan is to bring FG to one of my sessions when I feel ready. Its not like I'm off doing nothing for our R, I'm fixing my s### too.


So true. I know that feeling. When I was a kid, and got upset over my folks fighting, or my moms drinking, I'd go to the bathroom and look at myself in the mirror, and think how pathetic I looked crying. I was about eight, maybe nine. Anger and rage became my comfort zone. I've grown up since then, but the anger is still there, bubbling away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Some familiar turf here, guys. I did that, too, BS - looking in the mirror at my crying face and feeling disgust and self-hatred. I began converting all negative emotions into anger and would never cry or show vulnerability. My authentic emotions were never acceptable to my family, etc, so I became the girl with many interchangeable faces and took my cues from the outside rather than being in touch with or expressing my true feelings. There were times when hours of my days would go missing and people would tell me I did or said things I didn't remember. "I" wasn't there.

These defenses become very inconvenient later in life when one is trying to have romantic relationships.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Yup shadow thats pretty much it.

Now yesterday to be honest I didn't really think about her boss most of the day. I had class assignments to work on and when I got home in the afternoon I started playing Grand Thief Auto 5 all night.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Like FG said before it is a problem of mine that existed long before the A. I am working on it though. I feel uncomfortable and awkward getting emotional like this in front of others. When I was around 6-7 I was frequently afraid and cried over my parents fighting over my dads cheating. I was basically told by others in my environment to suck it up, really men don't cry, and even told by my teen cousin to stop acting like a little b###h. Basically expressing anger was cool but fear and sorrow weren't. By the time I hit double digits. I had learned to keep all that stuff to myself. So I have no problem expressing anger but its weird with other negative emotions. Yes I am going over crap like this in IC. The plan is to bring FG to one of my sessions when I feel ready. Its not like I'm off doing nothing for our R, I'm fixing my s### too.


This is the first I'm hearing about me going to your IC. Why didn't you tell me before now? I know you are working hard not just on yourself but with our R as well. Thank you so much and I'm waiting patiently for when you are ready. I love you so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> This is the first I'm hearing about me going to your IC. Why didn't you tell me before now? I know you are working hard not just on yourself but with our R as well. Thank you so much and I'm waiting patiently for when you are ready. I love you so much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah yeah, love you too.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Unrelated to previous post but I saw this quiz on sexual fantasies and had me and FG take it. It is scary how in sync we are now (except for a hang up or two over the A). She came a LONG way from how she was 9 yrs ago. Lady in the streets, freak in the sheets describes her pretty good. 

Interactive Sex Questionnaire for Couples | Mojo Upgrade


----------



## mintypeas

hello everyone well i renew my vows in a couple of hours so i thought i would come here and say goodbye to you all. this forum has helped me so much and it has been wonderful to read how people are getting on with the ups and downs of rec but i need to move on as i get triggers from here. the help we have received has brought us to today and our new marriage so for that i cant thank you all enough. i hope you all keep helping each other and find peace in your hearts that you truly deserve. thank you all again and now onto the next chapter of our lives.....

my thoughts and prayers all with you all 

mintypeas xxxx


----------



## calvin

mintypeas said:


> hello everyone well i renew my vows in a couple of hours so i thought i would come here and say goodbye to you all. this forum has helped me so much and it has been wonderful to read how people are getting on with the ups and downs of rec but i need to move on as i get triggers from here. the help we have received has brought us to today and our new marriage so for that i cant thank you all enough. i hope you all keep helping each other and find peace in your hearts that you truly deserve. thank you all again and now onto the next chapter of our lives.....
> 
> my thoughts and prayers all with you all
> 
> mintypeas xxxx


 Good luck and God bless mp,be thinking about you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

We'll miss you, Minty. Good luck!


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## hibiscus

Hello everyone.

I will try and read up as much as possible but I don't have a lot of time. I will just ask questions if I don't understand whats going on.

Is anyone having sexual issues since they have been in R? My partner is seeing a sex therapist regarding his low sex drive since his ONS


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I will try and read up as much as possible but I don't have a lot of time. I will just ask questions if I don't understand whats going on.
> 
> Is anyone having sexual issues since they have been in R? My partner is seeing a sex therapist regarding his low sex drive since his ONS


Hey hibiscus. Our sex life has mostly rebounded and is really great now but initially there were some issues. RTBP left home after Dday for 2 weeks and when he came back I was ecstatic. I'd often try to initiate sex but he simply couldn't get aroused by me at the time. Porn got him going but it was difficult for him once his focus was on me. After about 5 days since he came back we went to a party at a bar and both of us got pretty drunk. It was then his drive for me came back and we've been riding the wave of hysterical bonding ever since.

Also RTBP doesn't like giving me oral anymore. Before the A he enjoyed it and did it all the time. Now he said it skeeves him out and isn't ready yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I will try and read up as much as possible but I don't have a lot of time. I will just ask questions if I don't understand whats going on.
> 
> Is anyone having sexual issues since they have been in R? My partner is seeing a sex therapist regarding his low sex drive since his ONS


Yes, majorly. My partner is quite disinterested.  Wondering if I should give up on physical intimacy for the year. Of course, we've always had problems in that arena, previously from my side because the emotional intimacy I needed was lacking (not to mention our unresolved issues).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Yes, majorly. My partner is quite disinterested.  Wondering if I should give up on physical intimacy for the year. Of course, we've always had problems in that arena, previously from my side because the emotional intimacy I needed was lacking (not to mention our unresolved issues).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What are you doing to change this Sp?


----------



## hibiscus

Forever Grateful said:


> Hey hibiscus. Our sex life has mostly rebounded and is really great now but initially there were some issues. RTBP left home after Dday for 2 weeks and when he came back I was ecstatic. I'd often try to initiate sex but he simply couldn't get aroused by me at the time. Porn got him going but it was difficult for him once his focus was on me. After about 5 days since he came back we went to a party at a bar and both of us got pretty drunk. It was then his drive for me came back and we've been riding the wave of hysterical bonding ever since.
> 
> Also RTBP doesn't like giving me oral anymore. Before the A he enjoyed it and did it all the time. Now he said it skeeves him out and isn't ready yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How does that make you feel( that he doesn't like giving oral?). I understand if you don't wish to answer that.


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> How does that make you feel( that he doesn't like giving oral?). I understand if you don't wish to answer that.


It is what it is. Do I miss him doing it? Yeah. But I have no right to complain after what I did. MC said as his mind movies become less frequent his aversion to it should dissipate as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> What are you doing to change this Sp?


? Trying to be the best partner I can be, addressing past problems, and letting her know that I'm interested and available. At the same time, I express that I understand if she's still struggling with being open to intimacy and that I'm not expecting anything. She feels very pressured and stressed if I flirt too often (for instance, every day seems to be too often), so it's kind of tricky. Too much of a push would be destructive, IMO. I feel like I just need to let her know periodically that I'm interested and keep working on making our relationship better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

jupiter13 said:


> Might I add he knows now how much I was in love with him and takes it. Listens and then will hold me while I cry afterwards. Somehow the anger has to get out.


Jupiter
While I agree with getting the anger out, in time the yelling has to simmer down.

Because while he takes it and holds you while you get it out what is going to happen to him when you burst a blood vessel and have an aneurysm......

Yes the anger has to get out. But there are better ways and I hope they come to you both in good time.

Patience.

HM


----------



## hibiscus

Forever Grateful said:


> It is what it is. Do I miss him doing it? Yeah. But I have no right to complain after what I did. MC said as his mind movies become less frequent his aversion to it should dissipate as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you have a long affair?


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> ? Trying to be the best partner I can be, addressing past problems, and letting her know that I'm interested and available. At the same time, I express that I understand if she's still struggling with being open to intimacy and that I'm not expecting anything. She feels very pressured and stressed if I flirt too often (for instance, every day seems to be too often), so it's kind of tricky. Too much of a push would be destructive, IMO. I feel like I just need to let her know periodically that I'm interested and keep working on making our relationship better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's so strange that it's the opposite way around for me. :scratchhead:


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## calvin

Feel like crap today,hope this passes soon.
Why try?Why work the long hours? Pay the bills,take car of finances,fix stuff around the house.
Why bother?
Why stay married?
Why did she have to do this? Why did she think it was ok to sic a nut job on me?
Why,why,why?
I've asked that question a million times and I never get an answer.
So why do I keep asking?
Feel like packing my sh!t and heading down to Kentucky to live with my adopted brother.
Today sucks ass,my life sucks ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Did you have a long affair?


Two months. From December to February. Dday was 3 1/2 months ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> It is what it is. Do I miss him doing it? Yeah. But I have no right to complain after what I did. MC said as his mind movies become less frequent his aversion to it should dissipate as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well as another male I must admit that I would probably react exactly the same way. Don't forget it's very early in your R. Lots will change as you get further down the road.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Feel like crap today,hope this passes soon.
> Why try?Why work the long hours? Pay the bills,take car of finances,fix stuff around the house.
> Why bother?
> Why stay married?
> Why did she have to do this? Why did she think it was ok to sic a nut job on me?
> Why,why,why?
> I've asked that question a million times and I never get an answer.
> So why do I keep asking?
> Feel like packing my sh!t and heading down to Kentucky to live with my adopted brother.
> Today sucks ass,my life sucks ass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh cut it out Calvin. Where are you going to find a gal that loves camping and the Bears? In the general populace not many women would face up to their screw ups like CSS has. Soon she'll be bringing home enough consistently so you can cut back on your hours and have more family time. Just think. You can start watching college football again!


----------



## calvin

Just a ****ty day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Cheer up, Calvin, there is going to be a big announcement soon. I think it is something that will bring a smile to all but the most cynical of curmudgeons 'round these parts!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Well after 13 minutes in the delivery room, we had a boy, born 9-19 at 11:50 am, 7 lbs 8 oz, 20 inches long.

Apparently, even though we live across the street, we almost didn't make it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Congrats Mr and Mrs M!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

Congrats Mrs. M!!! That's great! I think with me back to work full time, we are struggling to find time for intimacy. I come home with my back and feet screaming in pain. Calvin gets home at 4 and I don't get home till 7. I know we will adjust and get used to it. It's been alittle rough. We are used to having way more time together. I'm used to having everything done around the house, groceries and erron
ds to run. I am still happy to have found this job. Also, I have weekends off. We just need to change our routine up a bit. Love calvin with all my heart, and that is why I got a full time job. I worry about his stress level, both of us now have high blood pressure. He works way too much and money has been tight. It will all work out. We will feel better when I get mt paycheck. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well after 13 minutes in the delivery room, we had a boy, born 9-19 at 11:50 am, 7 lbs 8 oz, 20 inches long.
> 
> Apparently, even though we live across the street, we almost didn't make it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Congratulations!* That is awesome news...


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> Feel like crap today,hope this passes soon.
> Why try?Why work the long hours? Pay the bills,take car of finances,fix stuff around the house.
> Why bother?
> Why stay married?
> Why did she have to do this? Why did she think it was ok to sic a nut job on me?
> Why,why,why?
> I've asked that question a million times and I never get an answer.
> So why do I keep asking?
> Feel like packing my sh!t and heading down to Kentucky to live with my adopted brother.
> Today sucks ass,my life sucks ass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your life does not suck!

What did Louis do Calvin?

Come on man. You are in a much better place than last year.


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well after 13 minutes in the delivery room, we had a boy, born 9-19 at 11:50 am, 7 lbs 8 oz, 20 inches long.
> 
> Apparently, even though we live across the street, we almost didn't make it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And, there it is...... Congratulations!


----------



## CantSitStill

He'll be ok Happyman, thanks . Just a bad day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Congrats, Mrs M!


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> Unrelated to previous post but I saw this quiz on sexual fantasies and had me and FG take it. It is scary how in sync we are now (except for a hang up or two over the A). She came a LONG way from how she was 9 yrs ago. Lady in the streets, freak in the sheets describes her pretty good.
> 
> Interactive Sex Questionnaire for Couples | Mojo Upgrade


RTBP...you're great, man. I shared this with GF and even though she hasn't even taken it yet, it spurred some discussion. We just spent hours talking about fantasies and discovered things we'd never suspected the other liked or wanted even after 10 years. NOW...if we could just get back to the doing part, LOL.


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> It's so strange that it's the opposite way around for me. :scratchhead:


I remember reading one of your posts about this recently. Almost replied then. Maybe your guy is struggling with psychological issues that are affecting his drive. It could be a lot of things, especially if he went from being more physical to much less so. Sorry you are going through this.


----------



## bfree

Mr and Mrs M, may this new miracle blessing bring you immense happiness and fulfillment. Hearty congratulations.


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> RTBP...you're great, man. I shared this with GF and even though she hasn't even taken it yet, it spurred some discussion. We just spent hours talking about fantasies and discovered things we'd never suspected the other liked or wanted even after 10 years. NOW...if we could just get back to the doing part, LOL.


No problem sp. Glad to help. Its amazing how people can be together for a while and still not know much about each other in bed. FG shocked me with what she's into. I mean damn.


----------



## Want2babettrme

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well after 13 minutes in the delivery room, we had a boy, born 9-19 at 11:50 am, 7 lbs 8 oz, 20 inches long.
> 
> Apparently, even though we live across the street, we almost didn't make it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Congratulations Mrs. and Mr. Mathias!


----------



## Forever Grateful

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well after 13 minutes in the delivery room, we had a boy, born 9-19 at 11:50 am, 7 lbs 8 oz, 20 inches long.
> 
> Apparently, even though we live across the street, we almost didn't make it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Congratulations Mrs M. That is great news!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> No problem sp. Glad to help. Its amazing how people can be together for a while and still not know much about each other in bed. FG shocked me with what she's into. I mean damn.


Hey!!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

bfree said:


> Oh cut it out Calvin. Where are you going to find a gal that loves camping and the Bears? In the general populace not many women would face up to their screw ups like CSS has. Soon she'll be bringing home enough consistently so you can cut back on your hours and have more family time. Just think. You can start watching college football again!


I think its absolutely WONDERFUL how CSS posts on here too. That's a serious sign of remorse.


----------



## hibiscus

calvin said:


> Just a ****ty day
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We all have days like that


----------



## jupiter13

Congrats, Mrs M! New life is always a blessing....

Sorry your in a bad place calvin 

I had a bit of great news myself today the OW was arrested for domestic violence but it got dismissed on the other hand their divorce should be final in a couple months. Seems that they are not having a good time anymore.
Bad news is my mind went and created the doubt that maybe once WH finds out he may have to leave too.


----------



## cpacan

Contratulations Mr. and Mrs. M! I wish you and your kids may find happyness on your way.


----------



## illwill

Congrats on the baby.


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> No problem sp. Glad to help. Its amazing how people can be together for a while and still not know much about each other in bed.


You are not kidding, what the hell, LOL. Since I last posted, she took it, and we actually match on a fair bit. :smthumbup:



Refuse to be played said:


> FG shocked me with what she's into. I mean damn.


Ha ha ha, I am hoping I will be saying that in the future, too!


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> I remember reading one of your posts about this recently. Almost replied then. Maybe your guy is struggling with psychological issues that are affecting his drive. It could be a lot of things, especially if he went from being more physical to much less so. Sorry you are going through this.


Its definitely psychological. But he is seeing a sex therapist to fight his demons. I believe we will slowly get back on track.


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Its definitely psychological. But he is seeing a sex therapist to fight his demons. I believe we will slowly get back on track.


Do you think this therapist is a good fit for him? Does he discuss anything with you from his sessions? (Any ideas on what the root of the psychological blockage is?)


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> You are not kidding, what the hell, LOL. Since I last posted, she took it, and we actually match on a fair bit. :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha ha, I am hoping I will be saying that in the future, too!


We matched up pretty well too. But since she went first I pulled kind of a d##k move and back buttoned from my real answers to the beginning of my part and put yes for everything to see all her kinks. :FIREdevil: (evil laugh)

Surprisingly though there wasn't too many we didn't share.


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> If she is abusing you tho...you may have to consider moving on without GF.]


Nope! I'm willing to go with this until the wheels fall off. It's hard to explain, but...despite some abusive stuff, she has given me more and been better to me than anyone. (And I've unintentionally been abusive, too.) She has also loved me and stayed despite my BPD, which I doubt anyone else would've done (just look at all the hatred and demonization of BPDers on TAM and you'll understand). I want to be with her. For many reasons. I really would do anything for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Well after 13 minutes in the delivery room, we had a boy, born 9-19 at 11:50 am, 7 lbs 8 oz, 20 inches long.
> 
> Apparently, even though we live across the street, we almost didn't make it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's wonderful news.
Congratulation to the both you.


----------



## soulpotato

Calvin, CSS, how are you two doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Contratulations to the Mathias!!!


----------



## CantSitStill

Soulpotato, thanks for asking about us. These past couple days he has been ticked off at me, for good reason. I was very very selfish , sneaky, cruel the list goes on and on. I no longer am that person and he knows that but it scares the hell outa him to trust me. If I did it once, I'm capable of doing it again. I know I won't but how can he feel secure in our relationship ever? I mean what if he thinks I'm just lying to him and having an affair. That is the hardest part about R. The trust is gone. It feels like we are separated and living together, it feels like torture to me but I understand. I mean, it's nothing compares to what I put him through. I do not like that CSS that hurt him. He doesn't wanna believe me when I tell him I love him, outa fear that I am faking it or lying. Just please keep us in your thoughts and prayers. I love Calvin more than anything. It is sad that it took an EA to sort my brain out about our marriage. At the time of the EA my mind only thought of All the negative things. Now that I have seen my own faults and have worked on them, I have hope. I gave up too easily. I will never make those mistakes again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## user_zero

Calvin,
you asked so many questions ... all those why(s) and how(s). you know at first I really tried to answer those and I realized there are no satisfying answers. and I'm not even sure you're looking for any answer.

sometimes we ask those questions to find some kinda justice in the outcome of such situation. and let me tell you after readying hundreds of threads on TAM , LS, ... I know for certain there is no way that you gonna get 100% justice in this world. but I'm a religious man. I believe in the Just God, in afterlife. trust me when I say whoever that did you wrong gonna pay for it. there is no way they can run away from this. the funny thing is even if this is not true, just believing in it will bring you peace.

I read your posts I mean all of them since you came here on TAM and I wanted to say. you gotta let this go. and by this I don't mean marriage. I mean this pain , these questions that you never going to find any answer for them that might help you somehow. God knows you already paid more than enough and for something that wasn't even your fault to begin with. let yourself to be happy, vulnerable happy. whatever is going to happen you know you did/are doing the best you could under circumstances.

sometimes, I read posts here on TAM that a BS promises reconciliation to FWS and somewhere down the road they feel pain again. and because of their promise they feel the pressure of staying in the relationship even more. Calvin, if this is your case then you should know you can make long term plans for your life with CSS but you don't have to have long term 'expectation' of your emotional state. there is no real pressure here. you can stay , you can go. choose to say/leave for this moment ( or maybe for a day or a week). but when you made your choice for this short time, be on it 100%. be in full control of your happiness. you deserve to be happy. you both deserve it.

About that nut job ex-OM : he already lost the fight to you, he is just trying to inflict more pain while going down. I believe if he is still trying to mess with you, he is getting something from this childish play. he knows he is not forgotten. he knows he can rock your boat and get your attention and that's fulfilling for him. I know its sick. my advice is to 'forget him'. block him, ignore his petty attempts, make him believe that he doesn't mean anything to you. trust me , this is going to hurt him even more than beating him down. 

PS: so sorry for my long post and my bad english.


----------



## hibiscus

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato, thanks for asking about us. These past couple days he has been ticked off at me, for good reason. I was very very selfish , sneaky, cruel the list goes on and on. I no longer am that person and he knows that but it scares the hell outa him to trust me. If I did it once, I'm capable of doing it again. I know I won't but how can he feel secure in our relationship ever? I mean what if he thinks I'm just lying to him and having an affair. That is the hardest part about R. The trust is gone. It feels like we are separated and living together, it feels like torture to me but I understand. I mean, it's nothing compares to what I put him through. I do not like that CSS that hurt him. He doesn't wanna believe me when I tell him I love him, outa fear that I am faking it or lying. Just please keep us in your thoughts and prayers. I love Calvin more than anything. It is sad that it took an EA to sort my brain out about our marriage. At the time of the EA my mind only thought of All the negative things. Now that I have seen my own faults and have worked on them, I have hope. I gave up too easily. I will never make those mistakes again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I felt so emotional when I read that. I obviously know how Calvin feels but I also have a lot of empathy to you CSS as I see how you are really trying to make it work again. You and my partner sound the same...so remorseful.

Don't give up because my trust is coming back slowly but surely. I am so proud of my partner for trying to make amends. I have a lot of respect for him because of this. I see a bright future.


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Do you think this therapist is a good fit for him? Does he discuss anything with you from his sessions? (Any ideas on what the root of the psychological blockage is?)


Yeah I think these sessions do him a world of good. I don't he discusses everything that is mentioned in the sessions but he is always grateful to be coming home to me afterwards. He is always just that bit more affectionate and appreciative towards me after an IC session.

Yes I know the root of his blockage. He suffered a football injury in his early twenties and lost a testicle. It put him into a depression and he had to have IC back. He didn't date for many years because he felt abnormal. When he cheated and saw the devastation he created, it triggered this insecurity again.


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Nope! I'm willing to go with this until the wheels fall off. It's hard to explain, but...despite some abusive stuff, she has given me more and been better to me than anyone. (And I've unintentionally been abusive, too.) She has also loved me and stayed despite my BPD, which I doubt anyone else would've done (just look at all the hatred and demonization of BPDers on TAM and you'll understand). I want to be with her. For many reasons. I really would do anything for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whats a BPD?


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Do you think this therapist is a good fit for him? Does he discuss anything with you from his sessions? (Any ideas on what the root of the psychological blockage is?)


Anyway it seems like my partner likes it when I tell him that we are having sex. I think it turns him on. lol


----------



## happyman64

hibiscus said:


> Anyway it seems like my partner likes it when I tell him that we are having sex. I think it turns him on. lol


Ha!

If my wife ever told me she wanted sex I would have a heart attack.

There are only 3 times in our lives that my wife initiated sex.

And she was pregnant all 3 times.

Very funny.

Thank god for hormones!!!


----------



## hibiscus

happyman64 said:


> Ha!
> 
> If my wife ever told me she wanted sex I would have a heart attack.
> 
> There are only 3 times in our lives that my wife initiated sex.
> 
> And she was pregnant all 3 times.
> 
> Very funny.
> 
> Thank god for hormones!!!


I know what you mean. He has only asked me once in two years. Even when our sexlife was regular before his ONS, he never intitated.But I never had to ask because he was always ready when I wanted it. 

Guess I am the "man" here. I told him we are having sex tomorrow night and he says "definitely". Ha ha. Its like ordering a pizza. But when we do have sex its really good so I cant complain.


----------



## soulpotato

CSS, I know he will get there. Don't lose hope, you're doing everything right.  He always tries to return as soon as possible. I'll be back later when I can talk more. Just know you're in my thoughts. Hang in there. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

hibiscus said:


> I know what you mean. He has only asked me once in two years. Even when our sexlife was regular before his ONS, he never intitated.But I never had to ask because he was always ready when I wanted it.
> 
> Guess I am the "man" here. I told him we are having sex tomorrow night and he says "definitely". Ha ha. Its like ordering a pizza. But when we do have sex its really good so I cant complain.


Hibiscus

*You are the man!* 

HM


----------



## cheese puff

I feel like my wife and I have R, after 5 years. It took years of therapy, reading and hard work. Some times I would want to leave and find someone else. So glad I stayed the quality of our relationship is better. I think we both have grown up a lot. The sex is better than it has ever been, my wife has learned to discuss issues and is such a better person now. She had issues that where effecting the quality of her life that was pulling the life out of our marriage. Best advice I can give is find good mc and ic. Some think since we did not D that I let my wife get away with it. I look at it as my wife was a addict no different than a drug addict. She was destroying everyone's life around her, the kids and I where getting hurt bad. Once dday hit she did every thing I ask to turn her life around, I will say if the ws will not put effort in to changing I would leave, the cheating lifestyle pulls the life out of everyone involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

hibiscus said:


> Whats a BPD?


Borderline personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato, thanks for asking about us. These past couple days he has been ticked off at me, for good reason. I was very very selfish , sneaky, cruel the list goes on and on.


You're a different person now and you are working hard every day to show him that. You absolutely deserve credit for that, and when Calvin isn't struggling so hard to resolve things in his own mind, he has nothing but good things to say about you. Don't forget that he loves you and that he will return from this. Someday he won't have these bad days but once in a blue moon.



CantSitStill said:


> I no longer am that person and he knows that but it scares the hell outa him to trust me. If I did it once, I'm capable of doing it again. I know I won't but how can he feel secure in our relationship ever?


I believe he will get to the point at which he can trust you enough to relax a little - he'll need to for you guys to keep healing and moving forward. (Of course the trust is not going to be the same as it was before, but.) It doesn't help at ALL that the POS AP will not leave you guys alone. I really think that the harassment is re-traumatizing Calvin (and probably you as well) over and over.



CantSitStill said:


> I mean what if he thinks I'm just lying to him and having an affair. That is the hardest part about R. The trust is gone. It feels like we are separated and living together, it feels like torture to me but I understand.


I really hope he doesn't feel that.  I think anyone can see that you love him and are totally devoted to him. If Calvin thinks that, it is just temporary paranoia, because I cannot imagine he would think that of you on a regular basis. You have made your remorse very clear, and you have done everything you can to help Calvin heal. (I know what you mean about how separated you can feel on bad days, when it seems like everything is breaking down. It's horrible.)



CantSitStill said:


> I mean, it's nothing compares to what I put him through.


But you're hurting, too, and that still matters. I'm sorry. 



CantSitStill said:


> I do not like that CSS that hurt him. He doesn't wanna believe me when I tell him I love him, outa fear that I am faking it or lying.


You wouldn't be working through this tough stuff in R with him if you didn't love him. There would be no reason for you to lie or fake it. He has to remember that just as that's true for him, it's true for you, too. 



CantSitStill said:


> Just please keep us in your thoughts and prayers. I love Calvin more than anything.


I've been thinking about you guys a lot this weekend. I know you love him more than anything, and I think he knows too when he's not in the grip of this fear/paranoia. The stalker a$$hole tries to mess with Calvin's mind and divide him from you. But as others have said, he's got nothing but to try to destroy the two of you and ruin your recovery and your happiness, which is why he does his best to mess with Calvin. I wish you guys could do something to shut this guy down for good. 



CantSitStill said:


> It is sad that it took an EA to sort my brain out about our marriage. At the time of the EA my mind only thought of All the negative things. Now that I have seen my own faults and have worked on them, I have hope. I gave up too easily. I will never make those mistakes again.


Same thing happened to me. But it took more for me to get it than it did for you, but I feel the same way. Neither of us will be giving up or messing up again. Keep hoping, Calvin will come out on the other side of this. 

I hope you two are doing better today.


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Anyway it seems like my partner likes it when I tell him that we are having sex. I think it turns him on. lol


Some of us like that take-charge attitude, haha!


----------



## soulpotato

Wow, how things change. Earlier in the week I was lamenting the lack of intimacy and giving up on it for the year, and this whole weekend was like HOLT SH!T WHAT HAPPENED. WE HAVE TO EITHER SLEEP OR GTFO OF THIS BED. :rofl: And to think, it all started the first night with me asking for a goodnight kiss and not expecting anything else. Wow. I think my brain melted. :smthumbup: I had no idea GF had it in her!! I really hope this is here to stay!


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Whats a BPD?


Well, since Larry posted the Wiki link for you, the technical explanation is covered.  If you have any questions, feel free to ask me.


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> You're a different person now and you are working hard every day to show him that. You absolutely deserve credit for that, and when Calvin isn't struggling so hard to resolve things in his own mind, he has nothing but good things to say about you. Don't forget that he loves you and that he will return from this. Someday he won't have these bad days but once in a blue moon.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe he will get to the point at which he can trust you enough to relax a little - he'll need to for you guys to keep healing and moving forward. (Of course the trust is not going to be the same as it was before, but.) It doesn't help at ALL that the POS AP will not leave you guys alone. I really think that the harassment is re-traumatizing Calvin (and probably you as well) over and over.
> 
> 
> 
> I really hope he doesn't feel that.  I think anyone can see that you love him and are totally devoted to him. If Calvin thinks that, it is just temporary paranoia, because I cannot imagine he would think that of you on a regular basis. You have made your remorse very clear, and you have done everything you can to help Calvin heal. (I know what you mean about how separated you can feel on bad days, when it seems like everything is breaking down. It's horrible.)
> 
> 
> 
> But you're hurting, too, and that still matters. I'm sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> You wouldn't be working through this tough stuff in R with him if you didn't love him. There would be no reason for you to lie or fake it. He has to remember that just as that's true for him, it's true for you, too.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been thinking about you guys a lot this weekend. I know you love him more than anything, and I think he knows too when he's not in the grip of this fear/paranoia. The stalker a$$hole tries to mess with Calvin's mind and divide him from you. But as others have said, he's got nothing but to try to destroy the two of you and ruin your recovery and your happiness, which is why he does his best to mess with Calvin. I wish you guys could do something to shut this guy down for good.
> 
> 
> 
> Same thing happened to me. But it took more for me to get it than it did for you, but I feel the same way. Neither of us will be giving up or messing up again. Keep hoping, Calvin will come out on the other side of this.
> 
> I hope you two are doing better today.





soulpotato said:


> Some of us like that take-charge attitude, haha!





soulpotato said:


> Wow, how things change. Earlier in the week I was lamenting the lack of intimacy and giving up on it for the year, and this whole weekend was like HOLT SH!T WHAT HAPPENED. WE HAVE TO EITHER SLEEP OR GTFO OF THIS BED. :rofl: And to think, it all started the first night with me asking for a goodnight kiss and not expecting anything else. Wow. I think my brain melted. :smthumbup: I had no idea GF had it in her!! I really hope this is here to stay!



Look at that awesome response to CSS!  soulpotato gets some action and she's on fire! :FIREdevil: It's amazing what some good lovin' can do for ya! You go girl! :woohoo:


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> Look at that awesome response to CSS!  soulpotato gets some action and she's on fire! :FIREdevil: It's amazing what some good lovin' can do for ya! You go girl! :woohoo:


EI!! :rofl: You kill me! You are not kidding, my state of mind is greatly improved. I daresay GF is feeling pretty damned good, too! 

Thank you.


----------



## CantSitStill

Thank you soulpotato, I feel your pain in your posts and I believe you understand what I was saying there. It's a horrible feeling. Calvin finally told me last night that we will start over . So that's good news. It does help to help others when you are hurting, doesn't it? I notice that I tend to do that. When things are bad over here, I help out someone else on TAM. I love the support in this thread 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Thank you soulpotato, I feel your pain in your posts and I believe you understand what I was saying there. It's a horrible feeling. Calvin finally told me last night that we will start over . So that's good news. It does help to help others when you are hurting, doesn't it? I notice that I tend to do that. When things are bad over here, I help out someone else on TAM. I love the support in this thread 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Thank you Soulpotato,you also EI.
I seem to cycle between wanting a D and then back to loving the hell out of CSS.
I have never had to deal with something so hard.
I can't let her live in limbo anymore,she has paid her dues.
Betrayal cuts to the bone and its a lasting hurt,the loser trying to contact me
Makes me live this **** over again but since I have not reponded back to him
It seems he is not having any fun anymore,that's good.
That d!ckhead would have hurt and tried to take advantage of my wife.
I'm so glad she is safe now with me.
I know quite a few of you all think I'm a bonehead and I understand it,this is
hard for me but CSS is the one that keeps me centered and sane.
Love her?.....like crazy.not enought money or women in the world could change my mind.
Thank you for your kind words Sp,you are a very kind person.
I'm going to double up my efforts from here on out.
It sucks knowing what she said to the jerk but she regrets it,I have never seen
Anyone get physically ill and puke in the toilet like CSS did thinking about him.
Anyway,we had my Dads Birthday party today and CSS was a big help,we still make a good team!
I have never seen anyone so sorry for the choice they made.
I'm sorry for my rant a few days ago.
Why did she do this does not matter now,what matters is how we are doing and the effort
She puts forth to fix it and she is doing her best.
Sorry guys,this post might sound messed up,I'm very tired,lot of OT and a lot to
Do around the house with a one day weekend.
I love CSS and I'm the one messing up now,I need to do better and I will.
Thanks SP,what you wrote was very touching.
Praying and wishing the best for you and GF.
Thanks to all of you here.
Time to watch my beloved Chicago Bears,along side with my lovely wife who
Is a huge fan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Yeah I think these sessions do him a world of good. I don't he discusses everything that is mentioned in the sessions but he is always grateful to be coming home to me afterwards. He is always just that bit more affectionate and appreciative towards me after an IC session.
> 
> Yes I know the root of his blockage. He suffered a football injury in his early twenties and lost a testicle. It put him into a depression and he had to have IC back. He didn't date for many years because he felt abnormal. When he cheated and saw the devastation he created, it triggered this insecurity again.


That makes sense. He probably felt especially ashamed and defective after he cheated - similar feelings to what he experienced when he was injured in his twenties. The insecurity and lack of self-worth are definitely libido killers, and difficult to conquer.


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Thank you soulpotato, I feel your pain in your posts and I believe you understand what I was saying there. It's a horrible feeling. Calvin finally told me last night that we will start over . So that's good news. It does help to help others when you are hurting, doesn't it? I notice that I tend to do that. When things are bad over here, I help out someone else on TAM. I love the support in this thread
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so glad he said that.  Yes, it does feel good to help others, and I care about the folks on this thread (I love it, too). I want everyone to heal and be happy.


----------



## soulpotato

Calvin, you are welcome. It is wonderful to hear those things from you. It sounds like you are doing very well. You and CSS DO make a great team, and you two pulling together as a couple is a beautiful thing.  I appreciate your kind words (and the support you've both given me). Glad to see both of you are okay.


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> Wow, how things change. Earlier in the week I was lamenting the lack of intimacy and giving up on it for the year, and this whole weekend was like HOLT SH!T WHAT HAPPENED. WE HAVE TO EITHER SLEEP OR GTFO OF THIS BED. :rofl: And to think, it all started the first night with me asking for a goodnight kiss and not expecting anything else. Wow. I think my brain melted. :smthumbup: I had no idea GF had it in her!! I really hope this is here to stay!


I like to go ahead and take credit and say it was because of the quiz. :rofl: Either way...


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Thank you soulpotato, I feel your pain in your posts and I believe you understand what I was saying there. It's a horrible feeling. Calvin finally told me last night that we will start over . So that's good news. It does help to help others when you are hurting, doesn't it? I notice that I tend to do that. When things are bad over here, I help out someone else on TAM. *I love the support in this thread*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me, too, CSS! It makes so happy that this thread continues to thrive. Many posters have come and gone, some just drop in, on occasion, some have stayed on indefinitely, but the one constant remains; you will be welcomed, here, you will be treated with respect and dignity, and you will be encouraged to share your story, whether you are the BS or the WS, whether you are black or white, etc., gay or straight, whether you are a Christian, Atheist, Agnostic or a tree toucher, (that was a dig for Dig...... one of our beloved, now, perma-banned, charter members) whether you have a diagnosed disorder, whether you're still in "the fog" or even if you don't believe in "the fog." Everyone is welcomed. I am so amazed, impressed by and grateful for all of you.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Calvin, you are welcome. It is wonderful to hear those things from you. It sounds like you are doing very well. You and CSS DO make a great team, and you two pulling together as a couple is a beautiful thing.  I appreciate your kind words (and the support you've both given me). Glad to see both of you are okay.



Sometimes wse all need to lean on eachother.
I did have my Dads B day party today at home,me and CSS do all the parties.
Mother,Fathers day and everything else,I love doing it.
CSS is soo much help.
I was afraid of what might have happen today,would my fam talk about us when we
Were't around? Would I walk up on them and hear them whispering and then shut up?
It has happend a couple times but that was when things were fresh.
My fears were unfounded,my fam has always seen CSS as one of the good daughters
In our fam.
My Mom and Dad consider her one of their own.
They have forgiven her and they know this one time fvck up by CSS does not
Define her life.
I feel things are going to get better,been doing a lot of reading.
I actually now believe the addict part of an A know.
We are good,can't keep my hands off of here and no,I don't want sex.
Just to cuddle and smell her and hug he.
CSS is......something else in a good way.
Night all,2:30 comes early and let's go Bears!
Chist I'm so wiped,thank God for CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

But, with all of that (my previous post) having being said, if any of you even so much as *think* about trying to make the 10,000th post on this thread, I will personally speak to the OP, (don't tell anyone, but we've been sleeping together for quite a while, now ) and have this thread yanked faster than Miley Cyrus can do something foolish, that she will regret later, again. 

~EI


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Wow, how things change. Earlier in the week I was lamenting the lack of intimacy and giving up on it for the year, and this whole weekend was like HOLT SH!T WHAT HAPPENED. WE HAVE TO EITHER SLEEP OR GTFO OF THIS BED. :rofl: And to think, it all started the first night with me asking for a goodnight kiss and not expecting anything else. Wow. I think my brain melted. :smthumbup: I had no idea GF had it in her!! I really hope this is here to stay!


Woo hoo! Congrats SP! I'm so glad for you. I'd knew it would happen eventually. Such great news.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> Me, too, CSS! It makes so happy that this thread continues to thrive. Many posters have come and gone, some just drop in, on occasion, some have stayed on indefinitely, but the one constant remains; you will be welcomed, here, you will be treated with respect and dignity, and you will be encouraged to share your story, whether you are the BS or the WS, whether you are black or white, etc., gay or straight, whether you are a Christian, Atheist, Agnostic or a tree toucher, (that was a dig for Dig...... one of our beloved, now, perma-banned, charter members) whether you have a diagnosed disorder, whether you're still in "the fog" or even if you don't believe in "the fog." Everyone is welcomed. I am so amazed, impressed by and grateful for all of you.


Thank you EI and B1. So many different viewpoints and advice. This thread has been a big help to RTBP and I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> But, with all of that (my previous post) having being said, if any of you even so much as *think* about trying to make the 10,000th post on this thread, I will personally speak to the OP, (don't tell anyone, but we've been sleeping together for quite a while, now ) and have this thread yanked faster than Miley Cyrus can do something foolish, that she will regret later, again.
> 
> ~EI


All yours EI,you desever it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

A lot of good news tonight. Going to keep it going.

FG was stressing about last Tuesday all week. Not going to lie it was on my mind for a bit but I had good distractions (mostly GTA V) and was able to get over it pretty quickly. I was in a good mood so I decided to take FG out. Something I haven't done in a while, its mostly her taking me out or her planning something. Went to her favorite Japanese hibachi restaurant, saw a crappy movie and I pulled a highschool move on her in the back of theater , then took her dancing, then awesome nightcap once we got home. 

I feel confident saying she's not stressed out anymore.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Oh yeah, good Bears win tonight, 3-0! F##k yeah!!!

Had a great Saturday night with FG.

The Packers lose and the Bears win. Good weekend.


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> All yours EI,you deserve it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What kind of :bsflag: is that, Calvin?  If you don't put up, at least, a little, resistance, it takes the challenge out of it for me..... :loser: Have I taught you nothing, here? :banghead:


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> That makes sense. He probably felt especially ashamed and defective after he cheated - similar feelings to what he experienced when he was injured in his twenties. The insecurity and lack of self-worth are definitely libido killers, and difficult to conquer.


Its coming back though. Last night was good


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> I like to go ahead and take credit and say it was because of the quiz. :rofl: Either way...


I was going to say...I may very well have to give you credit!! Because I do think it started with the quiz!


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> I was going to say...I may very well have to give you credit!! Because I do think it started with the quiz!


Well I discussed some of the things on there with my partner last night. I liked his response too.

So whats your story SP? I am gathering you had an EA. How long are you in R?

Slowly getting to know everyone on here....


----------



## hibiscus

EI said:


> Me, too, CSS! It makes so happy that this thread continues to thrive. Many posters have come and gone, some just drop in, on occasion, some have stayed on indefinitely, but the one constant remains; you will be welcomed, here, you will be treated with respect and dignity, and you will be encouraged to share your story, whether you are the BS or the WS, whether you are black or white, etc., gay or straight, whether you are a Christian, Atheist, Agnostic or a tree toucher, (that was a dig for Dig...... one of our beloved, now, perma-banned, charter members) whether you have a diagnosed disorder, whether you're still in "the fog" or even if you don't believe in "the fog." Everyone is welcomed. I am so amazed, impressed by and grateful for all of you.


Yes its brilliant that there are posts from BS as well as WS. We all learn from each other. The posts from WS helps me in particular.


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Well I discussed some of the things on there with my partner last night. I liked his response too.
> 
> So whats your story SP? I am gathering you had an EA. How long are you in R?
> 
> Slowly getting to know everyone on here....


LOL, I'm starting to wonder if that quiz works some kind of magic upon all who take it. RTBP found a real gem! He has done a great service by sharing said quiz. 

My story is long, so I'll drastically condense.  I actually had 3 EAs, overlapping in places. GF was (is) my life and they were my crutch/addiction/bad coping mechanism.


----------



## jupiter13

What quiz is this?


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> LOL, I'm starting to wonder if that quiz works some kind of magic upon all who take it. RTBP found a real gem! He has done a great service by sharing said quiz.
> 
> *Totally! More sex quizzes please!!*
> 
> My story is long, so I'll drastically condense.  I actually had 3 EAs, overlapping in places. GF was (is) my life and they were my crutch/addiction/bad coping mechanism
> 
> *How long is your relationship? Was the first EA early in the relationship?*.


----------



## soulpotato

Oops, hibiscus, I forgot to answer the R question. We were "negotiating" for 8 months, I guess, been acknowledged as being back together for a month. But I think we actually entered R back on June 25th, though it wasn't discussed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Why did she do this does not matter now,what matters is how we are doing and the effort
> She puts forth to fix it and she is doing her best.
> 
> *Honestly she probably doesn't fully understand why she acted the way she did. But it doesn't matter. What matters is that she loves you and it will never ever happen again. That's not even a question.*
> 
> I know quite a few of you all think I'm a bonehead
> 
> *Of course we think you're a bonehead. But it's not because of how you're dealing with all of this. We think you're a bonehead because...well...you're a bonehead! But you're OUR bonehead and we love you.*
> 
> Time to watch my beloved Chicago Bears,along side with my lovely wife who
> Is a huge fan.
> 
> *Aren't all Bears fans boneheads? The way they're playing I am finding myself becoming more of a bonehead with each passing Sunday.* :smthumbup:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

GF and I got together 10 years ago, but we were separated for about a year and a half (part of last year and into this year). I'm ashamed to say that my first EA started probably about a year and a half into my relationship with GF with an ex that I'd never properly detached from. I cycled back and forth between talking to her and ignoring her depending on how things were going with GF. I then added another EA, and another. I've realized that this kind of thing was standard for me my entire life because it was too threatening to have a level playing field with another human being. Truly sharing myself, connecting, or being present was terrifying to me. Truly risking was unacceptable. So it has always been that I had "back up" plans. That way there was always someone to distract me from my pain, and always someone to want me. (I did this with friendships, too, starting from when I was a kid.) The therapist said that that practice is what's known as "triangulation" and that it's pretty standard for people with BPD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

oooh. Having a massive trigger right now.

My partner had an IC session last Tuesday or so I thought. As I went through the post just now there was one addressed to our home without anyones name on it.

It was for my partner stating that he will still be charged the full amount for not attending his session last week. I just called the company and they refused to give me any further info.

So I called my partner and he said there must be a mistake and he will call them.

I am waiting for him to call me back. I am shaking and very upset. 

I agreed to pay for half of the sessions as I felt it benefited both of us. I hope to God he hasn't been lying to me. It will totally ruin everything we have been trying to rebuild.


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> GF and I got together 10 years ago, but we were separated for about a year and a half (part of last year and into this year). I'm ashamed to say that my first EA started probably about a year and a half into my relationship with GF with an ex that I'd never properly detached from. I cycled back and forth between talking to her and ignoring her depending on how things were going with GF. I then added another EA, and another. I've realized that this kind of thing was standard for me my entire life because it was too threatening to have a level playing field with another human being. Truly sharing myself, connecting, or being present was terrifying to me. Truly risking was unacceptable. So it has always been that I had "back up" plans. That way there was always someone to distract me from my pain, and always someone to want me. (I did this with friendships, too, starting from when I was a kid.) The therapist said that that practice is what's known as "triangulation" and that it's pretty standard for people with BPD.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is what happened with my partner. He started having coffee with an ex he still harboured feelings for. I am hoping he has learnt to stay away from temptation.

Are the sessions helping you? And in what way?


----------



## hibiscus

He lied to me!! He never went to the IC session last Tuesday and yet he sat down with me afterwards and we discussed what he spoke about for half an hour! 

Why would he do that! I am so upset!i am so agry!


----------



## bfree

hibiscus said:


> He lied to me!! He never went to the IC session last Tuesday and yet he sat down with me afterwards and we discussed what he spoke about for half an hour!
> 
> Why would he do that! I am so upset!i am so agry!


Did he admit it to you or did you find out from the counselor's office?


----------



## larry.gray

EI said:


> But, with all of that (my previous post) having being said, if any of you even so much as *think* about trying to make the 10,000th post on this thread, I will personally speak to the OP, (don't tell anyone, but we've been sleeping together for quite a while, now ) and have this thread yanked faster than Miley Cyrus can do something foolish, that she will regret later, again.
> 
> ~EI


I hope post number 10,000 isn't on page 666.


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> He lied to me!! He never went to the IC session last Tuesday and yet he sat down with me afterwards and we discussed what he spoke about for half an hour!
> 
> Why would he do that! I am so upset!i am so agry!


I'm sorry to hear that hibiscus. Did he confess? And where did he go then if you don't mind me asking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

I found out because they sent him a letter telling him to pay for the session that he hadn't attended


----------



## hibiscus

Forever Grateful said:


> I'm sorry to hear that hibiscus. Did he confess? And where did he go then if you don't mind me asking?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I called him as soon as I read the letter and he replied with
" what?! That must be a mistake. I will call them now"

He then sent me a text 30 mind later telling me that he had lied to me. said he was running late and had to rearrange the session. That he is so sorry.

What upsets me is that we spoke about his "session" when he got home. He talked about the things he said to the therapist in detail and told me how grateful he is to be coming home to me and my son afterwards?!

I am just devastated.


----------



## hibiscus

I don't know if he was genuinely working late or if he was somewhere else. He knew how important it was to go to these sessions as our sexlife has been terrible since we reconciled last December.

He is home in a couple of hours.


----------



## hibiscus

I hope I don't have to leave this thread :-(


----------



## EI

larry.gray said:


> I hope post number 10,000 isn't on page 666.


Larry, if you only knew the irony in that. I really shouldn't put so much personal information on here, but why stop, now? I was born on the 6th day, of the 6th month, in the 1960's. I won't say what year, but I've never made a secret of my age on TAM. So, it wouldn't be too hard to find. Six has ALWAYS been my absolute favorite number. I love it. I was very OCD as a child and as a young adult. Later in life, I got way too busy to have the time to indulge in my OCD. But, I used to do everything in sets of 6. Then, six sets of that, over and over. I don't do it, anymore. But, I still have an extreme fondness for the number six. I would love for the 10,000th post to be on page 666. But, alas, it will fall on page 667. Nonetheless, it will be mine.


----------



## bfree

hibiscus said:


> I don't know if he was genuinely working late or if he was somewhere else. He knew how important it was to go to these sessions as our sexlife has been terrible since we reconciled last December.
> 
> He is home in a couple of hours.


This is a serious breach of trust. I'm not suggesting this should necessarily be a deal breaker but if you decide to stick it out you need to put him on a very short leash. He needs to prove to you where exactly he was instead of his appointment. I would also demand he prove he has gone to all the other appointments and I might even consider insisting on going to his next appointment with him. When you talk to him remain extremely calm but be extremely firm. He needs to know that he is teetering on the edge right now.


----------



## bfree

hibiscus said:


> I hope I don't have to leave this thread :-(


Never


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Oh yeah, good Bears win tonight, 3-0! F##k yeah!!!
> 
> Had a great Saturday night with FG.
> 
> The Packers lose and the Bears win. Good weekend.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Oh yeah, good Bears win tonight, 3-0! F##k yeah!!!
> 
> Had a great Saturday night with FG.
> 
> The Packers lose and the Bears win. Good weekend.


 Yep hell of a game,glad the Pac lost,cant stand them.
Got up this morning,got my shower then called off,I'll take a vacation day.
With all the hours last week and my Dads party yesterday I'm still tired.
Its rare that I call off,I kinda feel guilty when I do.
Strange having the house to myself,not used to it.
I'll have plenty of time to pick up the house before CSS gets home.
Ok then,porno and cheetos time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I'm sorry to hear that he lied to you, hibiscus.  What on earth was he thinking! It's crazy that he would lie to you and jeopardize R. Please don't leave the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Hibiscus - what bfree said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

jupiter13 said:


> What quiz is this?


Jupiter, it's the link RTBP posted a few pages back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

hibiscus said:


> I hope I don't have to leave this thread :-(


No one ever has to leave this thread, hibiscus. True reconciliation begins with one's own self. It's a fluid process. We are constantly reconciling ourselves to the ever-changing circumstances in our lives. We do not have the power to change anyone except ourself. If the choices being made by others, in our lives, make our life less than or different than what we want and need it to be, only we have the power to choose how we handle that situation. Making healthy, appropriate, responsible and moral choices for ourselves is on us. That's a part of reconciliation.

RECONCILIATION:
2. 
the action of making one view or belief compatible with another.


Will you be able to reconcile the fact that your fiancé was dishonest with you about missing his appointment? First he missed the appointment, then he not only chose not to tell you that he missed it, but he actually spoke to you about the details of this appointment, and then he chose to be dishonest, again, when you, initially, confronted him about it, insisting that there must be a mistake. That represents, at least, three different times that he had an opportunity to be honest with you and he chose not to. Do you want to take the time and effort it would take for you to go over each one of those deceptions with him? Do you think they were white lies, meant to prevent, what he might have felt was an unnecessary confrontation or argument with you? Do you have any tolerance for "white lies?" Can you trust that this was only a white lie or could there be an even bigger deception going on? 

I can tell you that for me, personally, after having been the WS, I don't view 'white lies" as insignificant or harmless under any circumstances, anymore. I tend to run late, frequently, pretty much 99% of the time? I'm usually trying to squeeze an hour and 15 minutes worth of productivity into every waking hour of the day. It gets me into a lot of trouble with B1. He is always on time and he places a high value on being on time. One day last summer, a few months after D-Day, I needed to pick up a prescription at our doctor's office for B1. I truly did not think they closed until 5:00 p.m. But, our doctor had moved into a new office that closed at 4:30. I really should have left earlier in the day, anyway, but I was running late, as usual, and because of the change in our doctor's office hours, I didn't get it picked up before they closed. That wouldn't have been a big deal in the past, but as a former WS, I didn't want B1 to think that I didn't care about him, or that his health was not a priority to me or that I hadn't thought to verify the new office hours and that God forbid, I was running late, again. My mind started racing. I used to work myself into anxiety attacks last summer over time accountability and things like running later than usual during errands or getting caught by the long train, just outside of our subdivision, would throw me into a panic. Bear in mind, that B1 was NOT putting this pressure on me.... I was. But, I do believe that because I, willingly, and not begrudging, but lovingly, chose to become so conscientious and accountable with my time, that it allowed him a measure of comfort and the ability and desire to slowly begin trusting me, again. 

So, back to B1's prescription. I could have given B1 plenty of reasons for not having gotten the prescription picked up and I would never have had to confess how late I was running or worry about convincing him that I love him and that his health is a priority to me. That particular medication is, frequently, out of stock at our pharmacy and we, often, have to wait a day or two to fill it. It crossed my mind to tell him that....... But, I just couldn't do it. I think that as a former WS, there is nothing, short of faithfulness, that is more important than absolute honesty. It's the only way to build trust which is vital for a BS to even begin feeling safe, again. I think that is just common sense. 

You have to decide, hibiscus. Was this a simple white lie, meant to avoid confrontation, a bigger deception, or does it really matter? Can you ever feel safe with this man? Is he worthy of your trust and investment? You decide. That's reconciliation.


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> This is what happened with my partner. He started having coffee with an ex he still harboured feelings for. I am hoping he has learnt to stay away from temptation.
> 
> Are the sessions helping you? And in what way?


Best for us boundary-impaired people to carefully avoid even the possibility of risk, even after being trained on having proper boundaries. And no talking to ex-lovers, ever.

Yes, the therapy and DBT are greatly helping me. For one thing, they are showing me where my weaknesses are and what's dysfunctional in my Standard Operating Procedures. The DBT is improving my distress tolerance, which makes me more capable of facing bad or uncomfortable feelings and staying present and connected with GF. Also helps with overriding my bad coping mechanisms of turning to other people for the quick high to feel better. Learning to communicate better and interact in a healthier way, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> I called him as soon as I read the letter and he replied with
> " what?! That must be a mistake. I will call them now"
> 
> He then sent me a text 30 mind later telling me that he had lied to me. said he was running late and had to rearrange the session. That he is so sorry.
> 
> What upsets me is that we spoke about his "session" when he got home. He talked about the things he said to the therapist in detail and told me how grateful he is to be coming home to me and my son afterwards?!
> 
> I am just devastated.


So sorry hibiscus,I know that has to hurt terrible,prayers your way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Woo hoo! Congrats SP! I'm so glad for you. I'd knew it would happen eventually. Such great news.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you!  I appreciate your encouragement very much. I'm also very excited and hoping that this will be more usual for us! I expect a little calming, but this is going to remain a priority for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

I have just kicked him out. :-/


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Thank you!  I appreciate your encouragement very much. I'm also very excited and hoping that this will be more usual for us! I expect a little calming, but this is going to remain a priority for us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Little steps...


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> I have just kicked him out. :-/


Oh God.
I'm very sorry hibiscus.
Ugh,I had to do that to CSS for almost a week.
It sucked.
It wll get better,please hang in there,it hurts.
I know.
Prayers right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Hibiscus, I'm sorry you are going through this with him.  You've been so supportive of him. Did he have anything to say for himself other than admitting that he lied? I can only imagine how hurt, angry, and betrayed you feel right now. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

He just said sorry sorry sorry. The words mean nothing to me. All I know is that he lied and that does not help with the trust issue. HE SHOULD KNOW THIS!!!! After everything I have been through with him.
:-((((


----------



## calvin

I appreciate CSS more and more now.
I'm sorry but I do,she has been open and honest with me.
Ugh,Hibiscus,I pray there is a logical explainaton for this.
I feel bad for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

He just said sorry sorry sorry. The words mean nothing to me. All I know is that he lied and that does not help with the trust issue. HE SHOULD KNOW THIS!!!! After everything I have been through with him.
:-((((


----------



## hibiscus

calvin said:


> I appreciate CSS more and more now.
> I'm sorry but I do,she has been open and honest with me.
> Ugh,Hibiscus,I pray there is a logical explainaton for this.
> I feel bad for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin there is no logical explanation. He was running late so he left a message with the therapist to rearrange the appointment. He than sat in a cafe till it was the right time to come home. Then he lied in my face for half an hour about how well the session went.

All this because he was worried that I would get upset that he couldn't attend the session.. He lied and got caught out!!

How old is this man!? :scratchhead::scratchhead:

He has just sent a text saying how sorry he is....

Does he not understand the word HONESTY?

I am so sad tonight. Going to bed on my own in tears.


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> Calvin there is no logical explanation. He was running late so he left a message with the therapist to rearrange the appointment. He than sat in a cafe till it was the right time to come home. Then he lied in my face for half an hour about how well the session went.
> 
> All this because he was worried that I would get upset that he couldn't attend the session.. He lied and got caught out!!
> 
> How old is this man!? :scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> He has just sent a text saying how sorry he is....
> 
> Does he not understand the word HONESTY?
> 
> I am so sad tonight. Going to bed on my own in tears.


He should have been honest upfront,maybe he thought you would freak if he
Was not able to make his appointment and didn't want to hurt you.
Still,without honesty all of us here have nothing to build on.
That goes for BS and WS.
I hope things get better soon.
Know that you have plenty of people here to talk to.
I'm no where near as good as the others with advice but I do care.
Everyone on this thread has a big heart.
Take care of yourself,I'm sorry.
Maybe he should go stay with his fam for a few days?
Bfree? EI?
You guys know what to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Hibiscus, I agree with Calvin that he was scared to tell you he missed the appointment, but extreme honesty is _especially_ important with him being a wayward. He HAS to force himself to tell you everything now, even when he's scared of your reaction. He cannot afford to do stupid things on his second chance with you, much less things that will destroy any trust that has been rebuilt.


----------



## hibiscus

calvin said:


> He should have been honest upfront,maybe he thought you would freak if he
> Was not able to make his appointment and didn't want to hurt you.
> Still,without honesty all of us here have nothing to build on.
> That goes for BS and WS.
> I hope things get better soon.
> Know that you have plenty of people here to talk to.
> I'm no where near as good as the others with advice but I do care.
> Everyone on this thread has a big heart.
> Take care of yourself,I'm sorry.
> Maybe he should go stay with his fam for a few days?
> Bfree? EI?
> You guys know what to say.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He definitely thought I would freak out. That's why he lied to me. He should have said to me that he was running late and he would rearrange the appointment.....but to sit with me and PRETEND that he went?! How do I trust him anymore?!

He is staying with his best friend. I don't want to see nor speak to him for the rest of this week. I am so tired of crying over him!

Night folks. I am drained and depressed. Speak tomorrow


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Hibiscus, I agree with Calvin that he was scared to tell you he missed the appointment, but extreme honesty is _especially_ important with him being a wayward. He HAS to force himself to tell you everything now, even when he's scared of your reaction. He cannot afford to do stupid things on his second chance with you, much less things that will destroy any trust that has been rebuilt.


I was hoping he knew this.


----------



## bfree

Hibiscus, I am so sorry for what you're going through. Get some rest. Hopefully you can garner some new perspective with fresh eyes. Know that we are here for you always.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Hibiscus, I am so sorry for what you're going through. Get some rest. Hopefully you can garner some new perspective with fresh eyes. Know that we are here for you always.


I second that.
Even if he just messed up and was running late he should have told you the truth.
Again,maybe he was scared but that's no reason to lie.
I would be upset also.
I hope he sees how this can hurt.
Talk and set down some guidelines with him.
Any lie is not acceptable,let him know this and maybe give him a shot
To make amends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> I was going to say...I may very well have to give you credit!! Because I do think it started with the quiz!


Your welcome! FG said she told you about the shirt. :rofl:

I got something else as well. It was in another thread. It isn't a quiz but is really helpful to some people (and funny). Warning: NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR KIDS.

List of All Sex Positions

Me and FG are currently working our way through it. I am in NO WAY attempting the Snake Charmer.


----------



## Refuse to be played

hibiscus said:


> He just said sorry sorry sorry. The words mean nothing to me. All I know is that he lied and that does not help with the trust issue. HE SHOULD KNOW THIS!!!! After everything I have been through with him.
> :-((((


Wow this sucks. I'm sorry Hibiscus. I read your other thread and he outed himself to you right? FWIW I think this could have just been a really dumba## snap decision he made and went all in on it. I'd like to hope he learned his lesson. Either way I wish you the best.


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> Your welcome! FG said she told you about the shirt. :rofl:


She did! It was priceless.  I said you were awesome, LOL.



Refuse to be played said:


> I got something else as well. It was in another thread. It isn't a quiz but is really helpful to some people (and funny). Warning: NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR KIDS.
> 
> List of All Sex Positions
> 
> Me and FG are currently working our way through it. I am in NO WAY attempting the Snake Charmer.


Amazing! XD That is quite some list! I have no doubt that you two will totally tear through that list!


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I am in NO WAY attempting the Snake Charmer.


Chicken! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Chicken!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh f##k you! I'm not breaking my goddamn neck! lol



Also I'm not posting for a while. Too close to the 10000 post and I don't want EI tracking me down.


----------



## EI




----------



## EI

La La La


----------



## EI

*CONGRATULATIONS, Reconcilers...... 
We have reached our 10,000th post!*

We have 315,066 views and counting
We have 13,420 likes and counting

And, 

The top 10 contributors, by the numbers, have been: 

calvin********** 1,259
CantSitStill******* 966
EI**************903
B1**************523
bfree************523
SomedayDig******451
Rookie4**********402
Changing Me******270
margrace	********265
daisy girl 41******258

There are so many others who have made incredibly significant contributions, that I hesitate to start naming names because I don't want to leave anyone out. But, I have to mention Acabado, cpacan, soulpotato, Mr. & Mrs. Mathias, DevastatedDad, happyman64, Mr Blunt, Decorum, jh52, NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME, RIGHT?, hopefulgirl, warlock07, MattMatt, old timer, russell28, TCSRedhead, Wazza, Forever Grateful, Refuse to be played, joe kidd, pidge70, jupiter13........... (in no particular order)

And, the list goes on and on................


Thank you all for contributing to a thread that has given countless BS's and WS's an opportunity to learn from one another, to educate one another, and to lift up, encourage, support and inspire one another as we all continue on through our own personal journey of reconciliation.

Take care and carry on..........

~B1 and EI


----------



## soulpotato

:rofl:


----------



## Refuse to be played

EI said:


>





EI said:


> La La La


:lol:
Somebody was impatient....

Congrats and thanks!


----------



## soulpotato

Boy, EI was bound and determined to get that post! Even the intrepid RTBP was afraid to steal it from her!


----------



## EI

Refuse to be played said:


> :lol:
> Somebody was impatient....
> 
> Congrats and thanks!




Impatient, you have no idea!  I haven't gone outside to get the mail, I haven't finished the laundry, I barely made dinner, didn't go to the gym..... I've had this post typed since 2:00 p.m., and I had to keep refreshing it to keep the "views" and "likes" updated....... 

I know..... I need to get a life!


----------



## soulpotato

As always, you write so well, EI. Thank you for including even those of us who weren't in the top 10! (I can see I am going to have to get busy! )


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> She did! It was priceless.  I said you were awesome, LOL.
> 
> *Yeah I am aint I?
> 
> I'm suprised I found it. I would have thought FG through it out, she always hated that shirt.*
> 
> Amazing! XD That is quite some list! I have no doubt that you two will totally tear through that list!


Eh, most of it. Some we already did and just didn't have a name and others we aren't going anywhere near them. 



soulpotato said:


> Boy, EI was bound and determined to get that post! Even the intrepid RTBP was afraid to steal it from her!


NOPE! I'm not that reckless. Like I said, do not want her tracking me down. Not going to challenge the Matriarch of this thread.


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> *CONGRATULATIONS, Reconcilers......
> We have reached our 10,000th post!*
> 
> We have 315,066 views and counting
> We have 13,420 likes and counting
> 
> And,
> 
> The top 10 contributors, by the numbers, have been:
> 
> calvin********** 1,259
> CantSitStill******* 966
> EI**************903
> B1**************523
> bfree************523
> SomedayDig******451
> Rookie4**********402
> Changing Me******270
> margrace	********265
> daisy girl 41******258
> 
> There are so many others who have made incredibly significant contributions, that I hesitate to start naming names because I don't want to leave anyone out. But, I have to mention Acabado, cpacan, soulpotato, Mr. & Mrs. Mathias, DevastatedDad, happyman64, Mr Blunt, Decorum, jh52, NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME, RIGHT?, hopefulgirl, warlock07, MattMatt, old timer, russell28, TCSRedhead, Wazza, Forever Grateful, Refuse to be played, joe kidd, pidge70, jupiter13........... (in no particular order)
> 
> And, the list goes on and on................
> 
> 
> Thank you all for contributing to a thread that has given countless BS's and WS's an opportunity to learn from one another, to educate one another, and to lift up, encourage, support and inspire one another as we all continue on through our own personal journey of reconciliation.
> 
> Take care and carry on..........
> 
> ~B1 and EI


No,I don't want to be #1.
Oh fvck....I really am a bonehead.
CSS #2?
Oh God.
Count it again EI!
Crap.
Ugh.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> *CONGRATULATIONS, Reconcilers......
> We have reached our 10,000th post!*
> 
> We have 315,066 views and counting
> We have 13,420 likes and counting
> 
> And,
> 
> The top 10 contributors, by the numbers, have been:
> 
> calvin********** 1,259
> CantSitStill******* 966
> EI**************903
> B1**************523
> bfree************523
> SomedayDig******451
> Rookie4**********402
> Changing Me******270
> margrace********265
> daisy girl 41******258
> 
> There are so many others who have made incredibly significant contributions, that I hesitate to start naming names because I don't want to leave anyone out. But, I have to mention Acabado, cpacan, soulpotato, Mr. & Mrs. Mathias, DevastatedDad, happyman64, Mr Blunt, Decorum, jh52, NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME, RIGHT?, hopefulgirl, warlock07, MattMatt, old timer, russell28, TCSRedhead, Wazza, Forever Grateful, Refuse to be played, joe kidd, pidge70, jupiter13........... (in no particular order)
> 
> And, the list goes on and on................
> 
> 
> Thank you all for contributing to a thread that has given countless BS's and WS's an opportunity to learn from one another, to educate one another, and to lift up, encourage, support and inspire one another as we all continue on through our own personal journey of reconciliation.
> 
> Take care and carry on..........
> 
> ~B1 and EI


I miss pidge and Joe. I hope they're doing ok. They're good people.

I'd like to once again thank B1 for creating this thread and for both B1 and EI for making this the best area on TAM to go for knowledge and loving understanding without judgement. You guys are the best.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I miss pidge and Joe. I hope they're doing ok. They're good people.
> 
> I'd like to once again thank B1 for creating this thread and for both B1 and EI for making this the best area on TAM to go for knowledge and loving understanding without judgement. You guys are the best.


Suckass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

calvin said:


> Suckass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For real,I agree bfree.
They did good,this thread has helped some people in need.
I appreciate the thread and everyone on here.
Ok.....I better shut up.
I don't like being the one to post the most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> For real,I agree bfree.
> They did good,this thread has helped some people in need.
> I appreciate the thread and everyone on here.
> Ok.....I better shut up.
> I don't like being the one to post the most.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It also means you help the most.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> It also means you help the most.


No,just means I can't shut up.
Breaktime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

EI said:


> Impatient, you have no idea!  I haven't gone outside to get the mail, I haven't finished the laundry, I barely made dinner, didn't go to the gym..... I've had this post typed since 2:00 p.m., and I had to keep refreshing it to keep the "views" and "likes" updated.......
> 
> I know..... I need to get a life!


I'm surprised you didn't make several more right away so you'll still own 10,000 even if somebody else deletes a few.


----------



## cpacan

Wow, I'm a bit late for the party, it seems. Different time zones sucks.
I wonder if I have enough posts in the thread to reduce it to 10K... ;-)
Thank you B1 and EI for starting it, feeding it and supporting it.


----------



## hibiscus

calvin said:


> I second that.
> Even if he just messed up and was running late he should have told you the truth.
> Again,maybe he was scared but that's no reason to lie.
> I would be upset also.
> I hope he sees how this can hurt.
> Talk and set down some guidelines with him.
> Any lie is not acceptable,let him know this and maybe give him a shot
> To make amends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would this be a deal breaker for most of you? I received seven text messages off him last night stating how sorry he is and to please give him a second chance. They mean nothing to me.

He is staying with his friend till the weekend(I hope). I need this space.

What would you guys do in my situation.? He didn't cheat on me but he lied to me.


----------



## hibiscus

And congratulations on passing the 10 000 mark

. I helped a little bit with my ten posts lol


----------



## cpacan

hibiscus said:


> Would this be a deal breaker for most of you? I received seven text messages off him last night stating how sorry he is and to please give him a second chance. They mean nothing to me.
> 
> He is staying with his friend till the weekend(I hope). I need this space.
> 
> What would you guys do in my situation.? He didn't cheat on me but he lied to me.


Sorry you're going through this Hibiscus.

Missing the appointment, maybe the cover up, I can understand. But teeling about the session in details is just too weird to me - maybe he got caught up in the lies and don't know how detrimental it is.

I was TT'ed a bit during the first months, then there was some omissions in the following months and I realized it wouldn't stop untill I drew a line in the sand. I gave her the benefit of the doubt that I may have been to wishy washy.

So I told her my terms for being in a relationship with her and stated "These are my boundaries: NO/sip/zero contact with OM, no flirting with other males, and no more lies. If I catch you in one tiny little lie, I'll divorce. I don't care what the lie is about - No.more.lies."

I was being totally clear, I even drew it up for her on paper. To my knowledge there hasn't been any lies, not even small ones, since then - it was 16 months ago.

Maybe this would work for you as well, but of course you'll have to swallow this last one first. But I guess he got the message that it was totally unacceptable already?


----------



## jupiter13

Wow what an accomplishment. Thank You E1 and B1 for being here and to all the others. This is great!


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Would this be a deal breaker for most of you? I received seven text messages off him last night stating how sorry he is and to please give him a second chance. They mean nothing to me.
> 
> He is staying with his friend till the weekend(I hope). I need this space.
> 
> What would you guys do in my situation.? He didn't cheat on me but he lied to me.


Hibiscus, it's a very individual thing. For some people it would be a deal breaker, for others it wouldn't. But what matters most is how _you_ feel about it and whether or not you think you can forgive him for this and keep working on R with him. Whatever you decide has to be right for you personally. 

The fact that he lied directly and elaborately on something like missing a session makes me wonder if you may face this kind of thing a few more times in the future. Unless you're able to really hammer it into his head that if you forgive him this time, he will be dead meat if you ever catch him in any kind of lie again.


----------



## hibiscus

cpacan said:


> Sorry you're going through this Hibiscus.
> 
> Missing the appointment, maybe the cover up, I can understand. But teeling about the session in details is just too weird to me - maybe he got caught up in the lies and don't know how detrimental it is.
> 
> I was TT'ed a bit during the first months, then there was some omissions in the following months and I realized it wouldn't stop untill I drew a line in the sand. I gave her the benefit of the doubt that I may have been to wishy washy.
> 
> So I told her my terms for being in a relationship with her and stated "These are my boundaries: NO/sip/zero contact with OM, no flirting with other males, and no more lies. If I catch you in one tiny little lie, I'll divorce. I don't care what the lie is about - No.more.lies."
> 
> I was being totally clear, I even drew it up for her on paper. To my knowledge there hasn't been any lies, not even small ones, since then - it was 16 months ago.
> 
> Maybe this would work for you as well, but of course you'll have to swallow this last one first. But I guess he got the message that it was totally unacceptable already?


I have told him time and time again that there is to be no more lies and no more deceit. Maybe he thinks it only relates to cheating so he thought it was okay to lie about the missed session. I feel so let down.

He knows he has crossed the boundary with me as I have kicked him out. I told him today today that I don't trust him and without trust, there is no relationship. I told him not to contact me again as I need space.

He says he can stay with his friend till the weekend. I think I ought to do the 180 till the weekend and then sit down with him and discuss my boundaries one more time??


----------



## hibiscus

I don't know what to do. feel so paranoid today because of what he has done. He has ruined so much


----------



## hibiscus

Ten months of R down the effing drain


----------



## jupiter13

:rant:Sorry you're going through this Hibiscus my heart bleeds for you.

I just had to come let off some steam. Reading his needs her needs and the chapter about surviving an affair didn't reenforce answering questions as I had hoped. This is getting to be a real deal breaker for me and WH doesn't even know it. I also don't get it to say the marriage will be better or stronger I so don't agree. This marriage will and can not be stronger and better than it could have been had he not cheated. The simple facts that you can no longer trust this person 100%, this person is and will always be someone you have to watch out for. Maybe I'm just too old but if I have to always be watching my back then why bother. Except for the fact that you do get along have fun and all the things that you are suppose to be doing gets done normally anyways but the WH just let their own mind take them somewhere they shouldn't have been I have to be happy about the rebuilding of something I may have contributed too but never asked for? With no marriage vows or promises why even bother having an exclusive relationship? Seems too restrictive to me now. It's not fair that he gets to go out and continuously partake in bad behavior while I am always the one having to be responsible. I'm just sick of it. I don't know if we are going to make it at this point. Just ranting. He even had the never to tell me what time I should go to bed. The more he gets upset about it and says things I more I don't want to go to bed or sleep with him. If he can do whatever he wants when ever so can I this is not a one side relationship any more. Oh man I could go on again too. The lack of attending to repairs around the house. Even the fact that he is willing to sit down and watch a movie with me now pis~~ me off. He would never do that before and I mean if he were to seat his whole body would radiate energy and he was poised to spring off the couch to go do something. This person is a complete turn around and the one I wanted before but not so completely opposite. Could he be trying on a new hat and so confused he don't know where or what he is doing. I know the stress we are going through is all due to his behavior (we are going back to court the 10/2) and he says he is sorry but this is the last straw for me I will not except or excuse one more thing from him. Anymore trouble and I am out of here or maybe I am still on my way out. Life is too confusing for me anymore and dealing without medications makes things harder too. I am ranting and I don't think I am making a lick of sense. I am hating life tonight, hating this lying cheating person I married who fooled me from day one as he is not the man he said is was. Re-write every word.


----------



## hibiscus

jupiter13 said:


> :rant:Sorry you're going through this Hibiscus my heart bleeds for you.
> 
> I just had to come let off some steam. Reading his needs her needs and the chapter about surviving an affair didn't reenforce answering questions as I had hoped. This is getting to be a real deal breaker for me and WH doesn't even know it. I also don't get it to say the marriage will be better or stronger I so don't agree. This marriage will and can not be stronger and better than it could have been had he not cheated. The simple facts that you can no longer trust this person 100%, this person is and will always be someone you have to watch out for. Maybe I'm just too old but if I have to always be watching my back then why bother. Except for the fact that you do get along have fun and all the things that you are suppose to be doing gets done normally anyways but the WH just let their own mind take them somewhere they shouldn't have been I have to be happy about the rebuilding of something I may have contributed too but never asked for? With no marriage vows or promises why even bother having an exclusive relationship? Seems too restrictive to me now. It's not fair that he gets to go out and continuously partake in bad behavior while I am always the one having to be responsible. I'm just sick of it. I don't know if we are going to make it at this point. Just ranting. He even had the never to tell me what time I should go to bed. The more he gets upset about it and says things I more I don't want to go to bed or sleep with him. If he can do whatever he wants when ever so can I this is not a one side relationship any more. Oh man I could go on again too. The lack of attending to repairs around the house. Even the fact that he is willing to sit down and watch a movie with me now pis~~ me off. He would never do that before and I mean if he were to seat his whole body would radiate energy and he was poised to spring off the couch to go do something. This person is a complete turn around and the one I wanted before but not so completely opposite. Could he be trying on a new hat and so confused he don't know where or what he is doing. I know the stress we are going through is all due to his behavior (we are going back to court the 10/2) and he says he is sorry but this is the last straw for me I will not except or excuse one more thing from him. Anymore trouble and I am out of here or maybe I am still on my way out. Life is too confusing for me anymore and dealing without medications makes things harder too. I am ranting and I don't think I am making a lick of sense. I am hating life tonight, hating this lying cheating person I married who fooled me from day one as he is not the man he said is was. Re-write every word.


How long have you been in R with your hubby? I am sorry too that you are feeling this way. It sucks bigtime


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> Would this be a deal breaker for most of you? I received seven text messages off him last night stating how sorry he is and to please give him a second chance. They mean nothing to me.
> 
> He is staying with his friend till the weekend(I hope). I need this space.
> 
> What would you guys do in my situation.? He didn't cheat on me but he lied to me.


 I was thinking about this in bed last night hibiscus.
Its troubling that he just did'nt lie but he made up a story how the session went.
You have every right to call off R.
If it were me I would lay out some stict rules and give him this last shot with the understanding
that even if he lies anymore you're done,even if its a stupid lie about what he had
for lunch.
Make it clear to him you won't tolerate it again.
Do what you think is best.
So sorry you are in this mess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



hibiscus said:


> Would this be a deal breaker for most of you? I received seven text messages off him last night stating how sorry he is and to please give him a second chance. They mean nothing to me.
> 
> He is staying with his friend till the weekend(I hope). I need this space.
> 
> What would you guys do in my situation.? He didn't cheat on me but he lied to me.


I see this as being in the same orbit as his cheating. When someone it's used to avoiding conflict or not dealing with problems it becomes habitual. What I would want to know is whether he is working on this part of his personality because I would see this as a indication that he could definitely cheat again. If he is working on this in therapy then I might see this as a backsliding situation and maybe not a dealbreaker.


----------



## hibiscus

calvin said:


> I was thinking about this in bed last night hibiscus.
> Its troubling that he just did'nt lie but he made up a story how the session went.
> You have every right to call off R.
> If it were me I would lay out some stict rules and give him this last shot with the understanding
> that even if he lies anymore you're done,even if its a stupid lie about what he had
> for lunch.
> Make it clear to him you won't tolerate it again.
> Do what you think is best.
> So sorry you are in this mess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay I will speak to him on Friday. I wont text nor call him till that day. Then we will sit down and go through my boundaries in a crystal clear fashion so that there are no doubts that he understands what honesty truly means this time.


----------



## hibiscus

bfree said:


> I see this as being in the same orbit as his cheating. When someone it's used to avoiding conflict or not dealing with problems it becomes habitual. What I would want to know is whether he is working on this part of his personality because I would see this as a indication that he could definitely cheat again. If he is working on this in therapy then I might see this as a backsliding situation and maybe not a dealbreaker.


Bfree you are absolutely right. He isn't good at dealing with problems.

But I don't get him. He pretends to have had an IC session to avoid any aggro from me. But yet he promptly confesses to a ONS. He didn't lie nor hide that one. I find this to be very conflicting behaviour.

Maybe he thinks its okay because he wasn't cheating. I will definitely talk about this issue with him on Friday. He def needs to address this in therapy.


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Bfree you are absolutely right. He isn't good at dealing with problems.
> 
> But I don't get him. He pretends to have had an IC session to avoid any aggro from me. But yet he promptly confesses to a ONS. He didn't lie nor hide that one. I find this to be very conflicting behaviour.
> 
> Maybe he thinks its okay because he wasn't cheating. I will definitely talk about this issue with him on Friday. He def needs to address this in therapy.


It seems like he has a issue with conflict avoidance. That is definitely something that needs to be addressed. Believe me, I know all too well. Avoiding conflict never helps in the end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jasel

hibiscus said:


> Would this be a deal breaker for most of you? I received seven text messages off him last night stating how sorry he is and to please give him a second chance. They mean nothing to me.


I thought an attempt at R after cheating _was_ his second chance:scratchhead:

Sorry this happened. You know him better than we do. To me it's one thing to lie about going to a counseling session but to completely fabricate the content of one that didn't even happen?? Especially with the trust issues in the relationship already due to his cheating??

I wouldn't try telling you whether to stay or go but I do think you need to ask if what you're putting yourself through and fighting for is really worth holding onto. From all your postings it sounds like he should really be getting some serious counseling before he attempts a functional relationship with anyone, not just you.


----------



## bfree

hibiscus said:


> Bfree you are absolutely right. He isn't good at dealing with problems.
> 
> But I don't get him. He pretends to have had an IC session to avoid any aggro from me. But yet he promptly confesses to a ONS. He didn't lie nor hide that one. I find this to be very conflicting behaviour.
> 
> Maybe he thinks its okay because he wasn't cheating. I will definitely talk about this issue with him on Friday. He def needs to address this in therapy.


Obviously only he can answer that question but if I were to guess I would say the difference is guilt. He felt incredibly guilty about the ONS and knew he needed to come clean about it. But he didn't feel the same guilt over lying to you regarding the missed counseling session. He needs to be made to understand how serious this breach of trust really is. Might I suggest you sit down with him and use Dr. Harley's "Policy of Radical Honesty" as a baseline for trust in your relationship.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

This is the overview but Dr. Harley goes into much more detail if you follow the link above.

*The Policy of Radical Honesty


Honesty and Openness is one of the ten most important emotional needs identified in marriage, which means that when it's met, it can trigger the feeling of love. But it's counterpart, dishonesty, is one of the five most destructive Love Busters. When spouses are dishonest, they destroy the love they have for each other.

But there is a third reason that honesty is crucial in marriage. Honesty is the only way that you and your spouse will ever come to understand each other. Without honesty, the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in your marriage cannot be made. Without honesty, your best efforts to resolve conflicts will be wasted because you will not understand each other well enough to find mutually acceptable solutions.

Most couples do the best they can to make each other happy, at least for a while. But their efforts, however sincere, are often misdirected. They aim at the wrong target. Ignorance, not lack of effort, is often the most important cause of their ultimate downfall.

Couples are not only ignorant of ways to improve their marriages; they are often ignorant of the problems themselves. To avoid conflict, they sometimes deliberately misinform each other as to their feelings, personal history, activities, and plans. This not only leads to a failure to meet an important emotional need, and a withdrawal of love units when the deception is discovered, it also makes marital conflicts impossible to resolve. After all, how can you and your spouse solve a problem if your cards are not on the table?

To help you understand how honest you need to be to have a successful marriage, I have written the Policy of Radical Honesty. I call it "radical" because that's how many see my position on the subject. But I view my policy as simply advocating complete honesty in marriage. In our culture I guess that's a radical idea.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:
1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior. 
2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.
3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse. 
4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives. 
To some extent this policy seems like motherhood and apple pie. Who would argue that it's not a good idea to be honest? But in my years of experience as a marriage counselor, I have constantly struggled with the belief of many clients that dishonesty can be a good idea under certain conditions. Moreover, pastors and counselors themselves often advise dishonesty when a spouse has committed a particularly thoughtless act, such as infidelity. And many marital therapists warn against complaining, something that some consider one of the seven deadly sins of marriage. So instead of complaining, spouses often stuff their feelings and try to put a good face on a bad situation.
Granted, dishonesty can be a good short-term solution to marital conflict. It will probably get you off the hook for a few days or months or keep the problem on the back burner. But it's a terrible long-term solution. If you expect to live with each other for the next few years and still be in love, dishonesty can get you into a great deal of trouble. 
Because there are so many out there who advocate dishonesty in marriage, I will describe the four parts of my Policy of Radical Honesty, and explain to you why I think they are so important in marriage. *


----------



## jupiter13

Hibiscus D-Day was Aug 31, 2011 and it has been one event after another with deaths in the family, loss of beloved pets, and on and on it goes till this last thing with being arrested and having to go through this court this over WH business. (of course now my dog Rosie has gone missing.) While he is not answering the questions I want answered fully he keeps saying he does not remember, it wasn't an emotional thing etc. etc.. then I think I have caught him in lies but can't prove. You at least have caught yours straight up lying to you over something that shouldn't have been an issue to begin with . We all know "Sh~t happens." I agree that you need to pull the plug or make sure with a direct approach that he gets the message you are not playing games with him anymore it's truth or consequences time. Which is what I need to do also but can't seem to brake away. The drama in our life keeps us together. I will have to say after this last MC he is doing the walk and talk he should have done from the start but I am stuck wanting these answers. In a way I think it is to punish him by making him face what he has done openly and in the day light. It's one thing to just make an issue small and hidden but to actually bring it out look at it and expose it for what it is takes the power away from it. That is what I am seeking and will not be happy with anything less. I know I should be grateful for what he is doing while he goes to IC but it's not enough for me. Now I am being the selfish one. It's my life and this is what want. God I hate being like this. Some days I still cry over what has been lost and ruined. I don't think I will ever accept that braking vows means a better tomorrow no matter how hard you work at it or want it. The vows are broken. I will conitune to be around sometimes I don't feel I have anything to offer as in emotional dead. And other on her, you know who you are are some much more in tune with these issues than I am. I know I still need to post my story it would explain so much and see how very broken we really are but I never get around to it for some reason. I am going to make that a priority. Thank you for letting me get this stuff out. There is no one to talk to out here friends have run for the hills after all that has gone on. 
Everyone have a nice day, fall is in the air the change of season and with it the changes of life. I thought spring was my favorite month but fall always smell so fresh.


----------



## EI

Refuse to be played said:


> Oh f##k you! I'm not breaking my goddamn neck! lol
> 
> 
> 
> Also I'm not posting for a while. Too close to the 10000 post and I don't want EI tracking me down.



You edited this post to add that last sentence, you goofball!  Of course, I do appreciate that tiny little gratuitous display of fear. I call that "healthy respect." That same "fear" is how I manage to keep my sons, who are almost a foot taller and nearly 100 lbs heavier than me, in line.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> You edited this post to add that last sentence, you goofball!  Of course, I do appreciate that tiny little gratuitous display of fear. I call that "healthy respect." That same "fear" is how I manage to keep my sons, who are almost a foot taller and nearly 100 lbs heavier than me, in line.


No, THAT'S called love.


----------



## calvin

Ahhhh....I've had a pretty good life,I enjoyed the ride so the hell with it,
If I get a chance I'm snatching the 10,000 post.
I like a little danger in my life now and then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> Ahhhh....I've had a pretty good life,I enjoyed the ride so the hell with it,
> If I get a chance I'm snatching the 10,000 post.
> I like a little danger in my life now and then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You already missed the boat, buddy!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> You already missed the boat, buddy!


Damn it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

calvin said:


> Damn it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess the race to 11,000 is on....:smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

I've been so tired I forgot all about it,way too much OT,a bad leak I had to fix Saturday after work,Dads b day party Sunday.
I'm the walking dead right now.
CSS gets her first paycheck Friday,pretty soon I can slow the hell down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

EI said:


> You edited this post to add that last sentence, you goofball!  Of course, I do appreciate that tiny little gratuitous display of fear. I call that "healthy respect." That same "fear" is how I manage to keep my sons, who are almost a foot taller and nearly 100 lbs heavier than me, in line.


Yup. You remind me of my aunt a bit. Nice, sweet, and caring. But don't EVER SCREW WITH HER. She will end people. And now that you confirmed it I am glad I made the correct decision.


----------



## happyman64

EI said:


> *CONGRATULATIONS, Reconcilers......
> We have reached our 10,000th post!*
> 
> We have 315,066 views and counting
> We have 13,420 likes and counting
> 
> And,
> 
> The top 10 contributors, by the numbers, have been:
> 
> calvin********** 1,259
> CantSitStill******* 966
> EI**************903
> B1**************523
> bfree************523
> SomedayDig******451
> Rookie4**********402
> Changing Me******270
> margrace	********265
> daisy girl 41******258
> 
> There are so many others who have made incredibly significant contributions, that I hesitate to start naming names because I don't want to leave anyone out. But, I have to mention Acabado, cpacan, soulpotato, Mr. & Mrs. Mathias, DevastatedDad, happyman64, Mr Blunt, Decorum, jh52, NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME, RIGHT?, hopefulgirl, warlock07, MattMatt, old timer, russell28, TCSRedhead, Wazza, Forever Grateful, Refuse to be played, joe kidd, pidge70, jupiter13........... (in no particular order)
> 
> And, the list goes on and on................
> 
> 
> Thank you all for contributing to a thread that has given countless BS's and WS's an opportunity to learn from one another, to educate one another, and to lift up, encourage, support and inspire one another as we all continue on through our own personal journey of reconciliation.
> 
> Take care and carry on..........
> 
> ~B1 and EI


Just wanted to say congrats.

I also wanted to say that for all the b!tch!ng Calvin does about working too much he has a lot of free time on his hands to post here.... 

HM


----------



## Forever Grateful

RTBP unknowingly made my day. We were out walking our puppies together and took them to the park a few blocks away. He usually takes them to the playground and lets kids play with them some if their parents give permission. I always wondered why he did this so I asked this time. He shrugged and without looking up from his phone said so they'll use to little kids when their older. I started crying a bit and gave him probably the tightest hug I ever gave someone. He was confused and I told him what he said and gave him my thanks and a kiss. He still says he doesn't get how that made my day. He will never know how GOOD it felt to hear him say that.

This site always says its actions that matter not words. He shows everyday that despite the horrible pain I've brought him that he still loves me. That he is giving me a second chance. At our marriage, at trusting me, and my dream to one day start a family with him. And I will always be grateful for that. He is absolutely the strongest man I know and words can not express my love for him.

Boy I'm super emotionally today. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Just wanted to say congrats.
> 
> I also wanted to say that for all the b!tch!ng Calvin does about working too much he has a lot of free time on his hands to post here....
> 
> HM


You're jealous I can kinda type and weld at the same time!
My foreman(S) have seen the tiltle of this site.
They thing its great I'm working on my marriage.
Now if I could quit working 62 fvcking hours a week!!!!!.
Soon,CSS gets to do that foe 17 years then we're even!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> You're jealous I can kinda type and weld at the same time!
> My foreman(S) have seen the tiltle of this site.
> They thing its great I'm working on my marriage.
> Now if I could quit working 62 fvcking hours a week!!!!!.
> Soon,CSS gets to do that foe 17 years then we're even!
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The firm I used to work at the welders would burn open tins of beans. By the time the top was burnt through, the beans were warm enough to eat!


----------



## calvin

Oh and don't trust any of the bridges that I've done the pre-fab welds on,
Ah,they should be ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> You're jealous I can kinda type and weld at the same time!
> My foreman(S) have seen the tiltle of this site.
> They thing its great I'm working on my marriage.
> Now if I could quit working 62 fvcking hours a week!!!!!.
> Soon,CSS gets to do that foe 17 years then we're even!
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am jealous.

Mrs Happy just rejoined the full-time work force after 8 or 10 years or so.so long I cannot remember anymore.

And she loves her job and we need the $$$ to pay for college.

Thank God for miracles in this crappy economy.

Keep on welding my friend.......


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> I am jealous.
> 
> Mrs Happy just rejoined the full-time work force after 8 or 10 years or so.so long I cannot remember anymore.
> 
> And she loves her job and we need the $$$ to pay for college.
> 
> Thank God for miracles in this crappy economy.
> 
> Keep on welding my friend.......


Yeah,its going to help a lot and she likes this job,that's cool.
The last one was kinda crappy,I'm glad she found something she likes.
She does want to get down to six hours a day and that's fine with me.
CSS is a big help with grocery shopping and doing some running around 
For the fam.
I'm very thankful for my job,the alternative would really suck.
Dishes done,time to make the bed.....eh,its just going to get messed up again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Forever Grateful... well it's clear where his head is, isnt it?

He can't help himself.

Glad you had this great day.


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> RTBP unknowingly made my day. We were out walking our puppies together and took them to the park a few blocks away. He usually takes them to the playground and lets kids play with them some if their parents give permission. I always wondered why he did this so I asked this time. He shrugged and without looking up from his phone said so they'll use to little kids when their older. I started crying a bit and gave him probably the tightest hug I ever gave someone. He was confused and I told him what he said and gave him my thanks and a kiss. He still says he doesn't get how that made my day. He will never know how GOOD it felt to hear him say that.
> 
> This site always says its actions that matter not words. He shows everyday that despite the horrible pain I've brought him that he still loves me. That he is giving me a second chance. At our marriage, at trusting me, and my dream to one day start a family with him. And I will always be grateful for that. He is absolutely the strongest man I know and words can not express my love for him.
> 
> Boy I'm super emotionally today.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I like to hear good stuff like that.
Makes me smile
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> RTBP unknowingly made my day. We were out walking our puppies together and took them to the park a few blocks away. He usually takes them to the playground and lets kids play with them some if their parents give permission. I always wondered why he did this so I asked this time. He shrugged and without looking up from his phone said so they'll use to little kids when their older. I started crying a bit and gave him probably the tightest hug I ever gave someone. He was confused and I told him what he said and gave him my thanks and a kiss. He still says he doesn't get how that made my day. He will never know how GOOD it felt to hear him say that.
> 
> This site always says its actions that matter not words. He shows everyday that despite the horrible pain I've brought him that he still loves me. That he is giving me a second chance. At our marriage, at trusting me, and my dream to one day start a family with him. And I will always be grateful for that. He is absolutely the strongest man I know and words can not express my love for him.
> 
> Boy I'm super emotionally today.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow. FG told me why she started crying but didn't say all this. 

I love you to babe.


----------



## EI

Forever Grateful said:


> RTBP unknowingly made my day. We were out walking our puppies together and took them to the park a few blocks away. He usually takes them to the playground and lets kids play with them some if their parents give permission. I always wondered why he did this so I asked this time. He shrugged and without looking up from his phone said so they'll use to little kids when their older. I started crying a bit and gave him probably the tightest hug I ever gave someone. He was confused and I told him what he said and gave him my thanks and a kiss. He still says he doesn't get how that made my day. He will never know how GOOD it felt to hear him say that.
> 
> This site always says its actions that matter not words. He shows everyday that despite the horrible pain I've brought him that he still loves me. That he is giving me a second chance. At our marriage, at trusting me, and my dream to one day start a family with him. And I will always be grateful for that. He is absolutely the strongest man I know and words can not express my love for him.
> 
> Boy I'm super emotionally today.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Refuse to be played said:


> Wow. FG told me why she started crying but didn't say all this.
> 
> I love you to babe.



You two really are the most adorable couple!


----------



## CantSitStill

Hibiscus...as a WS I have learned to stop being fearful of conflict or of calvin's reactions. I have learned to tell him the truth even when I know it will hurt. I know he may not like the truth but it has to be that way in order for a relationship to work. We got to a bad point in our marriage because I was afraid to confront him with things that bothered me...and so the resentment came And everythjng went to crap. Now he asks about my EA and I hate it, but I answer honestly. Your husband needs to realize you will get nowhere if he is afraid of you or your reaction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Wow. FG told me why she started crying but didn't say all this.
> 
> I love you to babe.



_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> You two really are the most adorable couple!


Thank you EI! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

EI said:


> You two really are the most adorable couple!


I'm the more adorable one......


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> I'm the more adorable one......


 I agree!
Go Bears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Hep...


----------



## cpacan

Check...


----------



## cpacan

Just trying to beat Calvins record...


----------



## calvin

cpacan said:


> Just trying to beat Calvins record...


Never happen.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I'm the more adorable one......


Way to ruin it. See how he can be a jerk sometimes people! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

I made breakfast this morning before RTBP went to class. I've been picking up the slack when it comes to cooking and cleaning around the house. He use to handle most of it. Before I can make my plate he picks me up and sits me on his lap and we end up sharing his. We kept alternating between feeding and kissing each other. RTBP has really step up his displays of love and affection and I greatly appreciate it. He's even saying it more! God I love him! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> I made breakfast this morning before RTBP went to class. I've been picking up the slack when it comes to cooking and cleaning around the house. He use to handle most of it. Before I can make my plate he picks me up and sits me on his lap and we end up sharing his. We kept alternating between feeding and kissing each other. RTBP has really step up his displays of love and affection and I greatly appreciate it. He's even saying it more! God I love him!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're welcome babe, love you too.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone,
Nice to have made the honour roll, but wish I hadn't (if you know what I mean!!)
Anyway, all good here, we are doing really good. Off to London in 3 weeks for our 20th anniversary, yay, we made it!
I wonder when does it stop being a reconciliation and just become a marriage again?
We are 19 months in now and it all just feels so natural again. 

Anyway, love and thoughts to you all, especially those of you who are having a tough time at the moment. 
DG
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> You're welcome babe, love you too.


 Now that's good stuff!
Keep it up love birds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

jh52 let me know a little while ago he has surgery tomorrow at noon for
Carpal Tunnel.
Some of you have not had the pleasure of meeting jh yet but he was a big
help ( among the others here ) to me and CSS,a real stand up guy and he's a Bears fan!.
Prayers and thoughts for jh52.
Get well soon bro,no typing or beating....eggs for you for a little while.
Look forward to your return.
Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi everyone,
> Nice to have made the honour roll, but wish I hadn't (if you know what I mean!!)
> Anyway, all good here, we are doing really good. Off to London in 3 weeks for our 20th anniversary, yay, we made it!
> I wonder when does it stop being a reconciliation and just become a marriage again?
> We are 19 months in now and it all just feels so natural again.
> 
> Anyway, love and thoughts to you all, especially those of you who are having a tough time at the moment.
> DG
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy 20th Anniversary, dg! That's a huge milestone and after the last few years I know that it is an even bigger one when you have worked so hard to get there. You sound so happy and content and I'm really glad to hear it. I hope you and your hubby have a wonderful trip. You certainly deserve all of the happiness you can get. I hope the next 20 years are filled with less drama and more bliss for you and your family. <3


----------



## clipclop2

Jupiter, if he isn't answering questions he isn't doing the walk and the talk. Until he gets honest with you, he is still a dishonest person who keeps secrets and protects himself over you and the marriage. 

Hibiscus, you can't possibly believe he wasn't already clear on your boundaries. He made up a pretty big lie and delivered it with great ease. Can you even be certain he was at a coffee shop? How can you be sure anything he has told you about therapy thus far has been true n

If he had to pay for missing the appointment anyway why didn't he go late? He had a choice and look at the one he made. 

He risked his marriage again on something so stupid and unrewarding that it is frightening. This is how he thinks naturally. He contrived a story for you. He put effort into it. Thought. Look at where he puts his energy! 

I wouldn't let him come home for a few weeks if you let him come back at all. A week isn't enough punishment to make a big impact. His issues are more powerful than his desire to stay married. A week off is a drop in the bucket after a lifetime of deception born from avoidance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

PS, hibiscus: why didn't he sign a release so you can talk to the therapist?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> jh52 let me know a little while ago he has surgery tomorrow at noon for
> Carpal Tunnel.
> Some of you have not had the pleasure of meeting jh yet but he was a big
> help ( among the others here ) to me and CSS,a real stand up guy and he's a Bears fan!.
> Prayers and thoughts for jh52.
> Get well soon bro,no typing or beating....eggs for you for a little while.
> Look forward to your return.
> Take care.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I've been missing jh. And, yes, he is a real stand up guy. One of the very best. Calvin, if you talk to him, give him my best wishes for a speedy recovery.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hope everyone is well. I think about all of you . I just don't have much time to spend on here anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> I've been missing jh. And, yes, he is a real stand up guy. One of the very best. Calvin, if you talk to him, give him my best wishes for a speedy recovery.


You got it EI!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Do you find yourself reacting to signs of infidelity differently now?

In work on Monday evening someone was off sick so we had an assistant from school cover the shift. She is engaged with 2 young children. Our other member of staff (male) is also in a committed relationship. There have been rumours around school for a while that there is something going on between them. Throughout the evening, there were subtle glances, hushed conversations and phones buzzing from text messaging! 

Boy, did I trigger. It was awful, made me feel really uncomfortable but also really disgusted. I went to see my line manager and asked that those two people not be on shift together again and I gave the reason why.

I wonder if before all this had happened to me, would I have done the same? 

Going through infidelity in my marriage has really opened my eyes and made me more aware of what is going on around me. I ust have lived in a bubble before!


----------



## cpacan

I'm glad you're doing good DG - I've reconciled your avatar with your posts again 

I agree with you about the newfound awareness, I also notice little things now. I also think of it as being in a bubble sometimes, and then I start questioning whether I prefer being inside or outside the bubble. 

I remember the time IN the bubble as 20-something very happy years with a lot of love, while the new life outside the bubble is still unknown to me an therefore a bit fearfull. The red pill or the blue pill.

I know what I want, just wondering sometimes. 

Now, take off your Sherlock hat and have a nice day.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Cpacan
I liked my bubble too, but I'm slowly beginning to like my new life more. I can't explain it, I'm not as articulate as a lot of you, but we have both changed hugely. We defianately have a new marriage and it's good.

Oh,and I've been wondering for ages, what does you username mean? :scratchhead:


----------



## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> Cpacan
> I liked my bubble too, but I'm slowly beginning to like my new life more. I can't explain it, I'm not as articulate as a lot of you, but we have both changed hugely. We defianately have a new marriage and it's good.
> 
> Oh,and I've been wondering for ages, what does you username mean? :scratchhead:


Hehe... It really doesn't mean anything besides the fact that I have to log in using it  

It's just a composition of different versions of my initials - had I known that it would be my new nickname - I would've chosen differently. I thought about changing it to something more descriptive (I have several I could use), but then I would have to run a large expensive re-branding campaign... and that would be difficult since I don't post that much.


----------



## daisygirl 41

In my mind I call you capcan! I have to retype it every time


----------



## cpacan

Maybe it would be more cool to be a:

*C*ertified *P*hysical *A*ffair *C*ounter*A*ttack *N*inja

At least it sounded good for a moment


----------



## hibiscus

clipclop2 said:


> Hibiscus, you can't possibly believe he wasn't already clear on your boundaries. He made up a pretty big lie and delivered it with great ease. Can you even be certain he was at a coffee shop?
> 
> *Yes because he looks at me straight in the eyes when he says that. When we spoke about his so called session last Tuesday, I remembered that he looked very uncomfortable. His eyes were shifty, he gave me very short answers...he looked mentally drained. He even had tears in his eyes at one point. I should have seen these signs as he is NOT a good liar. His body language said that he was lying but I brushed it off because I thought it was a reaction from reliving his guilt.*
> 
> How can you be sure anything he has told you about therapy thus far has been true n
> 
> *He has been attending them otherwise they would have sent a letter demanding money for the missed session earlier. *
> 
> *If he had to pay for missing the appointment anyway why didn't he go late?
> Because they are hourly slots and he had booked the last one that day. They have said that he has to be punctual otherwise its considered a missed session.But they didn't tell him that a letter would be sent to him demanding money.*
> 
> He had a choice and look at the one he made.
> He risked his marriage again on something so stupid and unrewarding that it is frightening. This is how he thinks naturally. He contrived a story for you. He put effort into it. Thought. Look at where he puts his energy!
> 
> *Clipclop I know what you are saying. Another selfish moment. Lied and deceived me.He knew that he was wrong to deceive me like that but he said he had rearranged it for another day which he attended.
> But now that I have emotionally calmed down I don't see this incident as a dealbreaker.Yes he made a bad choice and he certainly needs to be punished for it and understand that a lie is a lie, no matter how trivial he considers the lie to be. But I cannot put this incident in the same category to when he cheated on me. Just cant.
> Plus he has been amazingly remorseful throughout our R. Done so much to me and my family to make amends. I cannot throw all our efforts away just for this incident. He clearly has issues with dealing with confrontation and I will suggest he talks about this in his next sessions. *
> 
> I wouldn't let him come home for a few weeks if you let him come back at all. A week isn't enough punishment to make a big impact. His issues are more powerful than his desire to stay married. A week off is a drop in the bucket after a lifetime of deception born from avoidance.
> 
> *Unfortunately he cannot stay longer than a week at his friends house so he will have to come home this weekend. But I know he is suffering as he is on the sofa. I have had endless messages off him begging, pleading..."sorry sorry...I am such an idiot..so stupid.please please give me a chance".God its pitiful. I have ignored them all. This morning he sent me a huge bunch of flowers*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Hibiscus, it's quite frustrating what you're going through ATM. BTDT.

I think you need to spell out to what a lie is, and that it isn't acceptable, even if it's just about having MacD instead of a salad for lunch. Don't lie - no-more-lies-ever.

I think you handle it very good.


----------



## cpacan

Hibiscus, it's quite frustrating what you're going through ATM. BTDT.

I think you need to spell out to what a lie is, and that it isn't acceptable, even if it's just about having MacD instead of a salad for lunch. Don't lie - no-more-lies-ever.

I think you handle it very good.


----------



## bfree

Hibiscus, personally I'm glad this isn't a deal breaker for you. I do think it was just a stupid deception on his part. But he needs to understand that complete unvarnished honesty is the only way to go forward. Hopefully this is the last slip up he will have and you will have to deal with.


----------



## hibiscus

clipclop2 said:


> PS, hibiscus: why didn't he sign a release so you can talk to the therapist?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry but I don't understand what you mean Clipclop? Whats a release?


----------



## hibiscus

EI said:


> No one ever has to leave this thread, hibiscus. True reconciliation begins with one's own self. It's a fluid process. We are constantly reconciling ourselves to the ever-changing circumstances in our lives. We do not have the power to change anyone except ourself. If the choices being made by others, in our lives, make our life less than or different than what we want and need it to be, only we have the power to choose how we handle that situation. Making healthy, appropriate, responsible and moral choices for ourselves is on us. That's a part of reconciliation.
> 
> RECONCILIATION:
> 2.
> the action of making one view or belief compatible with another.
> 
> You have to decide, hibiscus. Was this a simple white lie, meant to avoid confrontation, a bigger deception, or does it really matter? Can you ever feel safe with this man? Is he worthy of your trust and investment? You decide. That's reconciliation.


 Its been a tough few days but now that my anger has cleared I can see that it was a white lie. He made a very bad choice because he didn't want to deal with the fallout of his missed appointment. I don't believe there is anymore to it than that.

But I question why he would be so afraid of my reaction. Admittently I have been pushing him to do things he is uncomfortable with ( but will make the effort anyway) and I have been very upset with our sexlife.impatient at times.....I do recall saying to him that our relationship is over if he doesn't have therapy. Maybe he thought I would end it if he told the truth.


----------



## hibiscus

EI said:


> No one ever has to leave this thread, hibiscus. True reconciliation begins with one's own self. It's a fluid process. We are constantly reconciling ourselves to the ever-changing circumstances in our lives. We do not have the power to change anyone except ourself. If the choices being made by others, in our lives, make our life less than or different than what we want and need it to be, only we have the power to choose how we handle that situation. Making healthy, appropriate, responsible and moral choices for ourselves is on us. That's a part of reconciliation.
> 
> RECONCILIATION:
> 2.
> the action of making one view or belief compatible with another.
> 
> You have to decide, hibiscus. Was this a simple white lie, meant to avoid confrontation, a bigger deception, or does it really matter? Can you ever feel safe with this man? Is he worthy of your trust and investment? You decide. That's reconciliation.


 Its been a tough few days but now that my anger has cleared I can see that it was a white lie. He made a very bad choice because he didn't want to deal with the fallout of his missed appointment. I don't believe there is anymore to it than that.

But I question why he would be so afraid of my reaction. Admittently I have been pushing him to do things he is uncomfortable with ( but will make the effort anyway) and I have been very upset with our sexlife...I do recall saying to him that our relationship is over if he doesn't have therapy. Maybe he thought I would end it if he told the truth.


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Hibiscus, I agree with Calvin that he was scared to tell you he missed the appointment, but extreme honesty is _especially_ important with him being a wayward. He HAS to force himself to tell you everything now, even when he's scared of your reaction. He cannot afford to do stupid things on his second chance with you, much less things that will destroy any trust that has been rebuilt.


I hope he gets it this time! There will not be a next time if he lies to me about ANYTHING!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



hibiscus said:


> Its been a tough few days but now that my anger has cleared I can see that it was a white lie. He made a very bad choice because he didn't want to deal with the fallout of his missed appointment. I don't believe there is anymore to it than that.
> 
> But I question why he would be so afraid of my reaction. Admittently I have been pushing him to do things he is uncomfortable with ( but will make the effort anyway) and I have been very upset with our sexlife...I do recall saying to him that our relationship is over if he doesn't have therapy. Maybe he thought I would end it if he told the truth.


Quick question hibiscus. Exactly what is the therapy for regarding sexual function. I think you already explained once but I forgot. The release is a paper he can sign that allows you to freely communicate with his doctor and his doctor is free to talk to you about him regarding personal things that would otherwise be restricted by doctor/patient confidentiality. This actually would be a good thing because then you can follow up at home with things that the doctor feels would help move along his progress.


----------



## hibiscus

jupiter13 said:


> Hibiscus D-Day was Aug 31, 2011 and it has been one event after another with deaths in the family, loss of beloved pets, and on and on it goes till this last thing with being arrested and having to go through this court this over WH business. (of course now my dog Rosie has gone missing.) While he is not answering the questions I want answered fully he keeps saying he does not remember, it wasn't an emotional thing etc. etc.. then I think I have caught him in lies but can't prove. You at least have caught yours straight up lying to you over something that shouldn't have been an issue to begin with . We all know "Sh~t happens." I agree that you need to pull the plug or make sure with a direct approach that he gets the message you are not playing games with him anymore it's truth or consequences time. Which is what I need to do also but can't seem to brake away. The drama in our life keeps us together. I will have to say after this last MC he is doing the walk and talk he should have done from the start but I am stuck wanting these answers. In a way I think it is to punish him by making him face what he has done openly and in the day light. It's one thing to just make an issue small and hidden but to actually bring it out look at it and expose it for what it is takes the power away from it. That is what I am seeking and will not be happy with anything less. I know I should be grateful for what he is doing while he goes to IC but it's not enough for me. Now I am being the selfish one. It's my life and this is what want. God I hate being like this. Some days I still cry over what has been lost and ruined. I don't think I will ever accept that braking vows means a better tomorrow no matter how hard you work at it or want it. The vows are broken. I will conitune to be around sometimes I don't feel I have anything to offer as in emotional dead. And other on her, you know who you are are some much more in tune with these issues than I am. I know I still need to post my story it would explain so much and see how very broken we really are but I never get around to it for some reason. I am going to make that a priority. Thank you for letting me get this stuff out. There is no one to talk to out here friends have run for the hills after all that has gone on.
> Everyone have a nice day, fall is in the air the change of season and with it the changes of life. I thought spring was my favorite month but fall always smell so fresh.


Jupiter I love fall. I love the colours of the leaves.R is tough and I know that its not easy to let go of a life that you have built with someone whom you thought you knew. Just keep posting. Its probably not the right time for you to make any rash decisions right now?


----------



## hibiscus

bfree said:


> Quick question hibiscus. Exactly what is the therapy for regarding sexual function. I think you already explained once but I forgot. The release is a paper he can sign that allows you to freely communicate with his doctor and his doctor is free to talk to you about him regarding personal things that would otherwise be restricted by doctor/patient confidentiality. This actually would be a good thing because then you can follow up at home with things that the doctor feels would help move along his progress.


He suffers from ED. He never use to before he cheated.
Things have become a lot better than before but its still not 100%. He is able to have erections now but his sex drive is very low. He is having therapy to sort this out.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



hibiscus said:


> He suffers from ED. He never use to before he cheated.
> Things have become a lot better than before but its still not 100%. He is able to have erections now but his sex drive is very low. He is having therapy to sort this out.


This it's why I think you should be able to communicate with his therapist. It would be helpful to know what might "motivate" him and conversely what might shut him down. Also you can work within his therapy so that his progress doesn't end when his appointment does. Just a thought.


----------



## hibiscus

So he is home right now and yes he is sorry and he promises that he will never lie to me again. But he also says that I shouldn't keep bringing it up as we need to move forward.

I am annoyed by what he has just said but I don't know why


----------



## hibiscus

So he is home right now and yes he is sorry and he promises that he will never lie to me again. But he also says that I shouldn't keep bringing it up as we need to move forward.

I am annoyed by what he has just said but I don't know why


----------



## soulpotato

Told GF today that I was lucky to have her (and how wonderful she is - I do this fairly often) and she replied, "I'm lucky to have you, too."    That means so much to me that she is able to say that. I'm so happy, yet also sad, because I have very mixed feelings about myself with regard to her. I feel that she was unfortunate to have met me and doubly so to love me. I've often felt that she deserved better. Even years ago, I'd call her my better half. She is what motivates me to keep trying. I want so desperately to bring her joy, to make her smile, to be her sanctuary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Hibiscus, it's great to see you posting. Glad to hear that he is back home with you and that he (hopefully) gets it now - and realizes how close he came to losing everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Hibiscus, it's great to see you posting. Glad to hear that he is back home with you and that he (hopefully) gets it now - and realizes how close he came to losing everything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sp it's not quite a happy ending. I am still angry and hurt and he doesn't want to discuss what he did anymore. We have just had another huge argument and he has walked out.

I told him if he walks out on me right now to not come back.

He left so maybe this is the end.


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> Told GF today that I was lucky to have her (and how wonderful she is - I do this fairly often) and she replied, "I'm lucky to have you, too."    That means so much to me that she is able to say that. I'm so happy, yet also sad, because I have very mixed feelings about myself with regard to her. I feel that she was unfortunate to have met me and doubly so to love me. I've often felt that she deserved better. Even years ago, I'd call her my better half. She is what motivates me to keep trying. I want so desperately to bring her joy, to make her smile, to be her sanctuary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


SP that's so lovely. I wish my partner was saying that to me at this moment. But he is not and now I need to move forward without him.


----------



## calvin

Jh52 is home,he said surgery went well,he's typing with his left hand.
Sounds like fun.
Doing everything left handed for awhile has got to be a pain. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> Sp it's not quite a happy ending. I am still angry and hurt and he doesn't want to discuss what he did anymore. We have just had another huge argument and he has walked out.
> 
> I told him if he walks out on me right now to not come back.
> 
> He left so maybe this is the end.


 Sorry to hear this hibiscus,I feel he needs to put himself in your shoes,a BH willing
To give R a shot is giving a huge gift.
I hope he thinks about it and comes to understand how rough this is on you.
R takes plenty of patience and work on both sides.
Hope things get better soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> SP that's so lovely. I wish my partner was saying that to me at this moment. But he is not and now I need to move forward without him.


Oh hibiscus.  Thank you, and I am sorry that things are so bad right now. There have been many times that GF and I were fighting and not doing well and I thought, "This is it, we're not going to make it." But things have been getting better, even though we still have setbacks sometimes. Maybe it is the same for you and your fiancé.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Oh hibiscus.  Thank you, and I am sorry that things are so bad right now. There have been many times that GF and I were fighting and not doing well and I thought, "This is it, we're not going to make it." But things have been getting better, even though we still have setbacks sometimes. Maybe it is the same for you and your fiancé.


 Good things are headed in the right direction Sp,good to hear you both continue to
work together and work on eachother.
R is'nt for the weak and it takes time....lots of time but the reward can be real happiness
for couples.
I almost gave up more than a few times,I'm glad I did'nt,I really do love the hell out of CSS.
setbacks will happen but that's when a couple really works as a team and become stronger together.
R is a process you learn on the fly,hang in there people.
It will work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Oh hibiscus.  Thank you, and I am sorry that things are so bad right now. There have been many times that GF and I were fighting and not doing well and I thought, "This is it, we're not going to make it." But things have been getting better, even though we still have setbacks sometimes. Maybe it is the same for you and your fiancé.


 Glad things are headed in the right direction Sp,good to hear you both continue to
work together and work on eachother.
R is'nt for the weak and it takes time....lots of time but the reward can be real happiness
for couples.
I almost gave up more than a few times,I'm glad I did'nt,I really do love the hell out of CSS.
setbacks will happen but that's when a couple really works as a team and become stronger together.
R is a process you learn on the fly,hang in there people.
It will work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

What's going on with all of the double posts? TAM glitch? I was having trouble seeing my notifications yesterday. I thought it had something to do with the IOS 7 update. Maybe not.


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> What's going on with all of the double posts? TAM glitch? I was having trouble seeing my notifications yesterday. I thought it had something to do with the IOS 7 update. Maybe not.


I noticed that,got me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Got me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

Hibiscus, what I meant by asking how you can be certain of any thing having to do with therapy is about content. Is he telling you the truth about the discussions? 

I also don't understand your explanation of why he didn't go late. It is his appointment. He called ahead. He could have gone late instead of canceling. 

I think you are making excuses for him. These kinds of things tend to be pervasive in a relationship when a partner is avoidant. They can also be passive- aggressive as a result. Those two things contribute to the likelihood of cheating. Overlooking the significance of his actions IS IMO a lot like rug sweeping.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

hibiscus said:


> Sp it's not quite a happy ending. I am still angry and hurt and he doesn't want to discuss what he did anymore. We have just had another huge argument and he has walked out.
> 
> I told him if he walks out on me right now to not come back.
> 
> He left so maybe this is the end.


I know - it's very hard path. I don't like that he said he was done talking about what happened. It seems like he is in self-protective mode and trying to shut you down on communicating things that make him uncomfortable.  Have you heard anything since he left?


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> What's going on with all of the double posts? TAM glitch? I was having trouble seeing my notifications yesterday. I thought it had something to do with the IOS 7 update. Maybe not.


Perhaps it isn't your screen. Maybe you need glasses. I mean at your age and all, things start to go south.


----------



## Rookie4

Or it could be Deja Vu, all over again.


----------



## Rookie4

Or it could be Deja Vu, all over again. Wow, Spooky!!!


----------



## hibiscus

clipclop2 said:


> Hibiscus, what I meant by asking how you can be certain of any thing having to do with therapy is about content. Is he telling you the truth about the discussions?
> 
> *Clipclop I will never know if he is telling the truth because I don't hound him for detail after every session. I will ask him how it went and if he wishes to elaborate then I listen and ask questions.Sometimes. And sometimes its best to leave it. I gather that he is addressing his sexual issues as I see it in the bedroom. He no longer needs Viagra to perform and that indicates to me that his IC sessions are working. Remember he is seeing a sex therapist to address his ED issues. *
> 
> I also don't understand your explanation of why he didn't go late. It is his appointment. He called ahead. He could have gone late instead of canceling.
> 
> *The sessions are given in 40 min time slots. If you are late by 15mins they cancel the appointment and charge you for that timeslot in full. It is stated in their terms and conditions.
> It has happened often in his job that he has been late because of things going wrong and he then had to work overtime to correct it. *
> 
> I think you are making excuses for him. These kinds of things tend to be pervasive in a relationship when a partner is avoidant. They can also be passive- aggressive as a result. Those two things contribute to the likelihood of cheating. Overlooking the significance of his actions IS IMO a lot like rug sweeping.
> 
> *No I am not making excuses for him Clipclop. I know exactly what happened here.He was running late but part of it was that he couldn't be bothered to go. Instead of manning up about it, he pretended he went because he couldn't be bothered with the aggro. Would have worked out fine if I hadn't opened that letter...So now he has to deal with the backlash of it all... that he lied to me, was sly and put me five steps backwards towards trusting him again. Like I said its not a deal breaker for me but he still needs to be taught a lesson.
> 
> He is sleeping on his friend's sofa, far away from me and my son and not knowing if he has a future with us at this moment. That to me is not rug sweeping this incident at all.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

You said he will be back on the weekend. Then what?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

soulpotato said:


> I know - it's very hard path. I don't like that he said he was done talking about what happened. It seems like he is in self-protective mode and trying to shut you down on communicating things that make him uncomfortable.  Have you heard anything since he left?


He sent me two text messages this morning saying how much he is hurting for putting me in this pain again..never meant to hurt me ..was so stupid for making a bad choice like that.....that he understands why I am hurting because he has let me down....hopes we can work it all out..how much he loves me and my son...would never never cheat on me....promises to never lie to me again....begging for another chance...understands that I wouldn't believe what he says...

Another one saying how he finds it difficult to open up and the councilling is good for him despite feeling uncomfortable about it.

Wished he could have said that to me verbally last night. He shouldn't have walked out on me last night.But then again I was soooo angry.Literally venemous.I am not surprised.

I wont contact him today.


----------



## hibiscus

clipclop2 said:


> You said he will be back on the weekend. Then what?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was the original plan but he came home before to collect a few things and we had a huge argument last night. He walked out again and I told him to stay out and not come back.

So I have no idea whats happening at this stage. I am doing NC for a while. I need to simmer down first as my anger isn't doing me any favours


----------



## bfree

Hibiscus, your last two posts may offer some insight into why your fiance lied. Now I'm not excusing him at all but if the reaction you're giving him now is exactly what he feared then perhaps that is why he made the choice that he did. I'm sure part of it is because he is conflict avoidant but the other part may be that he truly didn't want to see you as upset as you are right now. Just good for thought.


----------



## hibiscus

bfree said:


> Hibiscus, your last two posts may offer some insight into why your fiance lied. Now I'm not excusing him at all but if the reaction you're giving him now is exactly what he feared then perhaps that is why he made the choice that he did. I'm sure part of it is because he is conflict avoidant but the other part may be that he truly didn't want to see you as upset as you are right now. Just good for thought.


I will admit that I can get very hot headed and fiery when we fight. He is a lot more calmer than I am. He is the type to say it once and then want to move on quickly. I need more time to work through my emotions a lot longer.

I don't know if that's a male/female difference trait or its just us


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi HB, I don't think I've commented on you're situation before but I have been reading you're post. I was going to suggest maybe NC for a little while and then you best me to it. A bit of a 180 is required here I think to give you both a bit of space.

Also, if I may be so bold, don't make threats you can't carry out. Don't tell him not to come back if you know you can't stick to it. I did that a few times in the heat of the moment and regretted it later. I then learned to think before I reacted and it really helped.

I hope things pick up for you over the weekend
X


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi HB, I don't think I've commented on you're situation before but I have been reading you're post. I was going to suggest maybe NC for a little while and then you best me to it. A bit of a 180 is required here I think to give you both a bit of space.

Also, if I may be so bold, don't make threats you can't carry out. Don't tell him not to come back if you know you can't stick to it. I did that a few times in the heat of the moment and regretted it later. I then learned to think before I reacted and it really helped.

I hope things pick up for you over the weekend
X


----------



## daisygirl 41

:smthumbup: Double trouble!!!


----------



## hibiscus

DB you are totally right that I shouldn't carry out threats I don't mean. I should have just let him leave without threatening him but I was so furious. Wrong of me.
180 is definitely needed here

Whats with these double posts??


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



hibiscus said:


> DB you are totally right that I shouldn't carry out threats I don't mean. I should have just let him leave without threatening him but I was so furious. Wrong of me.
> 180 is definitely needed here
> 
> Whats with these double posts??



I think TAM is having issues. I saw someone else complaining that entire threads were going missing.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Ugh. I'm stuck home with a fever today.  I hate when I get sick. But the good news is RTBP is staying home to take care of me. He has been so great and loving recently and I really appreciate it. But I still feel like I don't deserve it as well. I'm still working on the guilt and self-loathing but I just sometimes trigger with them when RTBP does something for me or shows love and affection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Forever Grateful said:


> Ugh. I'm stuck home with a fever today.  I hate when I get sick. But the good news is RTBP is staying home to take care of me. He has been so great and loving recently and I really appreciate it. But I still feel like I don't deserve it as well. I'm still working on the guilt and self-loathing but I just sometimes trigger with them when RTBP does something for me or shows love and affection.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG my partner has those triggers too. I forgot that he triggers.
Especially when I tell him that I would never do anything to hurt him( rebound cheating for example). He gets very teary when he hears that.


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> FG my partner has those triggers too. I forgot that he triggers.
> Especially when I tell him that I would never do anything to hurt him( rebound cheating for example). He gets very teary when he hears that.


When I do trigger I just get hit with a massive dose of shame, disgust, regret, sorrow, anger and hatred for myself. Oh and every one here can tell you that one of my biggest fears was RTBP having a revenge affair. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't on my mind sometimes. Like you RTBP says he would never do anything to hurt me like that and that too makes me feel guilty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Forever Grateful said:


> When I do trigger I just get hit with a massive dose of shame, disgust, regret, sorrow, anger and hatred for myself. Oh and every one here can tell you that one of my biggest fears was RTBP having a revenge affair. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't on my mind sometimes. Like you RTBP says he would never do anything to hurt me like that and that too makes me feel guilty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This dose of shame is what triggered my partner to have ED. I could never cheat on him as it would make me the biggest hypocrite in the world. 
Hugs to you FG


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Ugh. I'm stuck home with a fever today.  I hate when I get sick. But the good news is RTBP is staying home to take care of me. He has been so great and loving recently and I really appreciate it. But I still feel like I don't deserve it as well. I'm still working on the guilt and self-loathing but I just sometimes trigger with them when RTBP does something for me or shows love and affection.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry you're sick, FG!! I hope you get better soon. 

I have the triggers, too. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> This dose of shame is what triggered my partner to have ED. I could never cheat on him as it would make me the biggest hypocrite in the world.
> Hugs to you FG


I understand how it could. RTBP says if he did have one it would make him a bigger a--hole then me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Sorry you're sick, FG!! I hope you get better soon.
> 
> I have the triggers, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks SP. I hate this! RTBP has been great all day. 

They suck don't they?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

hibiscus said:


> I will admit that I can get very hot headed and fiery when we fight. He is a lot more calmer than I am. He is the type to say it once and then want to move on quickly. I need more time to work through my emotions a lot longer.
> 
> I don't know if that's a male/female difference trait or its just us


If he is conflict avoidant and you yourself admit that you're a hot head I can see why he tried to cover up missing the appointment. Don't get me wrong, he shouldn't have lied but I understand.

In addition to his ED issues he needs to resolve his fear of conflict. FG avoids conflict too and that is one of the main points she is working on in IC. R won't work if both of you aren't able to communicate openly with each other. 

With that said, you gotta learn to cool off some and not be such a hot head. I'm one too, and I know it sucks to be hot blooded in our positions but it doesn't really help. Your guy can't fear a tongue lashing for something minor like missing and rescheduling an appointment.


----------



## Refuse to be played

FG is doing ok and I'm taking good care of her. She has calmed down a bit and she's finally is able to keep food down. I hope this tells whatever insecure voice in her head to STFU. You know a man loves you when he's willing to clean up the vomit that couldn't make it into the toilet. I get that WSs do trigger but I'm working on forgiving her and she needs to start working on it too.

Oh, wanna hear something funny? Since she's bedridden FG gets to pick what movies we watch. She chose to watch all 6 Star Wars movies.  NERD!!! :rofl:


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> She chose to watch all 6 Star Wars movies.  NERD!!! :rofl:


Now THAT would make me vomit. :rofl:


----------



## soulpotato

FG, glad he's taking such good care of you.  And even letting you watch all the Star Wars movies!

Yes, the triggers do suck. Hoping I can enjoy my time with GF this weekend without them. She says she has great surprises planned.  I am thinking PG from the sound of it, but one never knows - that may well change!


----------



## Refuse to be played

Star Wars is ok and all but there is only so much a person can take in one sitting....


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Star Wars is ok and all but there is only so much a person can take in one sitting....


You didn't hear me complain when we saw all the Marvel movies at once for the Avengers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> FG, glad he's taking such good care of you.  And even letting you watch all the Star Wars movies!
> 
> Yes, the triggers do suck. Hoping I can enjoy my time with GF this weekend without them. She says she has great surprises planned.  I am thinking PG from the sound of it, but one never knows - that may well change!


Me too. He's such a sweetheart, I love him! Hope you have a trigger free weekend and throw a little XXX into the pg. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Refuse to be played said:


> If he is conflict avoidant and you yourself admit that you're a hot head I can see why he tried to cover up missing the appointment. Don't get me wrong, he shouldn't have lied but I understand.
> 
> In addition to his ED issues he needs to resolve his fear of conflict. FG avoids conflict too and that is one of the main points she is working on in IC. R won't work if both of you aren't able to communicate openly with each other.
> 
> With that said, you gotta learn to cool off some and not be such a hot head. I'm one too, and I know it sucks to be hot blooded in our positions but it doesn't really help. Your guy can't fear a tongue lashing for something minor like missing and rescheduling an appointment.


I definitely needed to get that under control but just remember RTBP that it was the section afterwards to upset me the most. The fact that he pretended to be somewhere he wasn't. This is something he needs to address if we are to carry on with R


----------



## hibiscus

Refuse to be played said:


> FG is doing ok and I'm taking good care of her. She has calmed down a bit and she's finally is able to keep food down. I hope this tells whatever insecure voice in her head to STFU. You know a man loves you when he's willing to clean up the vomit that couldn't make it into the toilet. I get that WSs do trigger but I'm working on forgiving her and she needs to start working on it too.
> 
> Oh, wanna hear something funny? Since she's bedridden FG gets to pick what movies we watch. She chose to watch all 6 Star Wars movies.  NERD!!! :rofl:


Star Wars is fab!


----------



## ConanHub

Forever Grateful said:


> When I do trigger I just get hit with a massive dose of shame, disgust, regret, sorrow, anger and hatred for myself. Oh and every one here can tell you that one of my biggest fears was RTBP having a revenge affair. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't on my mind sometimes. Like you RTBP says he would never do anything to hurt me like that and that too makes me feel guilty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey FG. Been following threads for a while and since you have been in counseling you might have already heard something like this. I don't even know if "self " forgiveness is possible, but what I do know is that hate and self-loathing and regret and shame are pretty healthy responses for someone who was something ugly but after they had a look at themselves decided to become something different.
People can become different. People who did ugly things can change. My wife has done some very ugly things in her past, but now she is the most beautiful person in the world to me. At some point she decided she had had enough and decided to become somebody else. I think you are choosing something else as well. 
For now maybe what you are experiencing is your old self "dying " and your new self being "born". I hope this gives you some hope. If people choose, someone beautiful can emerge from a cocoon that used to be a very ugly thing. Take it from a formerly ugly man, who is married to a formerly ugly woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

ConanHub said:


> Hey FG. Been following threads for a while and since you have been in counseling you might have already heard something like this. I don't even know if "self " forgiveness is possible, but what I do know is that hate and self-loathing and regret and shame are pretty healthy responses for someone who was something ugly but after they had a look at themselves decided to become something different.
> People can become different. People who did ugly things can change. My wife has done some very ugly things in her past, but now she is the most beautiful person in the world to me. At some point she decided she had had enough and decided to become somebody else. I think you are choosing something else as well.
> For now maybe what you are experiencing is your old self "dying " and your new self being "born". I hope this gives you some hope. If people choose, someone beautiful can emerge from a cocoon that used to be a very ugly thing. Take it from a formerly ugly man, who is married to a formerly ugly woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you ConanHub. I like the thought of becoming someone new, better. I'll try to keep that perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Star Wars is fab!


Thank you! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

ConanHub said:


> Hey FG. Been following threads for a while and since you have been in counseling you might have already heard something like this. I don't even know if "self " forgiveness is possible, but what I do know is that hate and self-loathing and regret and shame are pretty healthy responses for someone who was something ugly but after they had a look at themselves decided to become something different.
> People can become different. People who did ugly things can change. My wife has done some very ugly things in her past, but now she is the most beautiful person in the world to me. At some point she decided she had had enough and decided to become somebody else. I think you are choosing something else as well.
> For now maybe what you are experiencing is your old self "dying " and your new self being "born". I hope this gives you some hope. If people choose, someone beautiful can emerge from a cocoon that used to be a very ugly thing. Take it from a formerly ugly man, who is married to a formerly ugly woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So nice to read Conan


----------



## Forever Grateful

My fever broke and I'm feeling a bit better. RTBP stayed in bed with me for most of the day. We did a lot of talking, about our R, about our future, everything. It was good and I feel that we are a bit closer and more on the same page about a few things. It wasn't all pleasant but it needed to be done. Can't say my guilt has lessened any and I honestly don't see it going down any time soon. How can I even begin to attempt forgiving myself if RTBP hasn't yet? And even if he does I still don't see myself doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> My fever broke and I'm feeling a bit better. RTBP stayed in bed with me for most of the day. We did a lot of talking, about our R, about our future, everything. It was good and I feel that we are a bit closer and more on the same page about a few things. It wasn't all pleasant but it needed to be done. Can't say my guilt has lessened any and I honestly don't see it going down any time soon. How can I even begin to attempt forgiving myself if RTBP hasn't yet? And even if he does I still don't see myself doing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You got a good man there FG.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

How a-- backwards is this? I did this but HE'S the one comforting ME. Over what I did to him! 

Ugh I hate this! I can't wait until the weekend is over so I can go to IC and group.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> You got a good man there FG.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know, a great one. Thanks calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

RTBP will probably forgive you a lot sooner than you will be able to forgive yourself. It just seems to work out that way. But it will happen. You will always hate what you did. You will always remember how close you came to losing everything good in your life. You will probably always have some guilt for the pain you caused. But it does get better. My friend Beowulf's wife Morrigan still feels guilt even after almost three decades. But she has worked extremely hard to demonstrate her trustworthiness and still to this day continues to show remorse. Infidelity is truly a life changing experience for all concerned. It depends on how we apply that experience that makes all the difference.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> RTBP will probably forgive you a lot sooner than you will be able to forgive yourself. It just seems to work out that way. But it will happen. You will always hate what you did. You will always remember how close you came to losing everything good in your life. You will probably always have some guilt for the pain you caused. But it does get better. My friend Beowulf's wife Morrigan still feels guilt even after almost three decades. But she has worked extremely hard to demonstrate her trustworthiness and still to this day continues to show remorse. Infidelity is truly a life changing experience for all concerned. It depends on how we apply that experience that makes all the difference.



I was going to respond, but I couldn't say it any better than bfree already has. Based on everything I'm reading from FG and RTBP, I believe this is exactly how this will play out. B1 and I are 16 months into R and he has truly forgiven me. Forgiving myself has proven to be far more difficult than I ever imagined. I'm a pretty strong and determined person. When I make up my mind to do something, I'm usually unstoppable. Because I believe that B1 and our children deserve a happy, healthy and healed wife and mother, I think that forgiving myself is imperative. Depression and self-loathing do not make for a happy, healthy and healed individual. It has been an ongoing battle. But, I am strong and I am determined and I will not stop until I find a way. B1 has been nothing short of amazing. He is my rock. I love him so much.


----------



## EI

Forever Grateful said:


> How a-- backwards is this? I did this but HE'S the one comforting ME. Over what I did to him!
> 
> Ugh I hate this! I can't wait until the weekend is over so I can go to IC and group.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In the early weeks and months after D-Day, I would sit on B1's lap in the rocking chair in our bedroom and he would, literally, rock me in his arms while I sobbed. That what love looks like. RTBP loves you, FG.


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> RTBP will probably forgive you a lot sooner than you will be able to forgive yourself. It just seems to work out that way. But it will happen. You will always hate what you did. You will always remember how close you came to losing everything good in your life. You will probably always have some guilt for the pain you caused. But it does get better. My f
> riend Beowulf's wife Morrigan still feels guilt even after almost three decades. But she has worked extremely hard to demonstrate her trustworthiness and still to this day continues to show remorse. Infidelity is truly a life changing experience for all concerned. It depends on how we apply that experience that makes all the difference.


That seems how it will play out. I've seen how close I came to losing everything I cared about. I will NEVER do anything to risk it again. I plan on following Morrigan's way, I'll always show RTBP how grateful I am and he didn't choose wrong when he decided to take me back.

And don't diss Star Wars! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> I was going to respond, but I couldn't say it any better than bfree already has. Based on everything I'm reading from FG and RTBP, I believe this is exactly how this will play out. B1 and I are 16 months into R and he has truly forgiven me. Forgiving myself has proven to be far more difficult than I ever imagined. I'm a pretty strong and determined person. When I make up my mind to do something, I'm usually unstoppable. Because I believe that B1 and our children deserve a happy, healthy and healed wife and mother, I think that forgiving myself is imperative. Depression and self-loathing do not make for a happy, healthy and healed individual. It has been an ongoing battle. But, I am strong and I am determined and I will not stop until I find a way. B1 has been nothing short of amazing. He is my rock. I love him so much.


I like your approach EI. RTBP does deserve a happy, healthy, and healed wife. I want come to terms with myself before we start our family. Our child will need a mom who doesn't hate herself still. And it feels good being able to speak of having children with some certainty. RTBP says he is fully on board with having children! 

That's my goal I'm going for and I know me and RTBP can have a wonderfully happy family together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> In the early weeks and months after D-Day, I would sit on B1's lap in the rocking chair in our bedroom and he would, literally, rock me in his arms while I sobbed. That what love looks like. RTBP loves you, FG.


Recently we've started sitting together in the backyard on the deck. I'll sit I'm his lap on a lawn chair. Enjoying the warm weather while we have it. It seems like he can barely go a day without me breaking down in his arms. I know he loves me, I tell myself that daily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

EI said:


> B1 has been nothing short of amazing. He is my rock. I love him so much.


I love it when you say this - sounds so genuine.


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## larry.gray

EI said:


> I was going to respond, but I couldn't say it any better than bfree already has. Based on everything I'm reading from FG and RTBP, I believe this is exactly how this will play out. B1 and I are 16 months into R and he has truly forgiven me. Forgiving myself has proven to be far more difficult than I ever imagined. I'm a pretty strong and determined person. When I make up my mind to do something, I'm usually unstoppable. Because I believe that B1 and our children deserve a happy, healthy and healed wife and mother, I think that forgiving myself is imperative. Depression and self-loathing do not make for a happy, healthy and healed individual. It has been an ongoing battle. But, I am strong and I am determined and I will not stop until I find a way. B1 has been nothing short of amazing. He is my rock. I love him so much.


I've said it before and I'll say it again EI: I could have been you. Our marriage was in the same place as yours when you strayed. I could have, but what kept me was chance... circumstance... who knows, but as I said, it could have been me.

I worry that as I say that I will come off as looking down on you in any way. I am most certainly not. I admire your ability to write well, share and open yourself to others. 

I often have thoughts of "OH MY GOD WHAT COULD I HAVE DONE????" You share in your thoughts about what you have done, I have those same thoughts about "it could have been me." It aligns amazingly well. Who could have thought that a guy _that didn't cheat_ would have such similar thoughts?


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## soulpotato

My dream is to have a happy, healthy relationship with GF. I want us to be together all our lives - for many of my future memories to have her in them. I want to marry her. It's an ordinary sort of dream, but being with her is anything but ordinary.

Hope you're all doing well.


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## CantSitStill

soulpotato said:


> My dream is to have a happy, healthy relationship with GF. I want us to be together all our lives - for many of my future memories to have her in them. I want to marry her. It's an ordinary sort of dream, but being with her is anything but ordinary.
> 
> Hope you're all doing well.


Work on getting just that. Never give up on your dreams. You are a changed GF. You have learned your lesson and it is never too late to change. I believe in you. Praying that she also is starting to believe in you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Calvin and I have had a rough weekend. Lots of hurt feelings on his part. Not gonna give up hope on us. Please say a prayer for us if you pray. I truly love him and am totally devoted to him. It takes time for him to believe and trust me, I get it. I have broken that trust and security he had in me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Feeling better today both physically and emotionally. Watched football with RTBP today and apparently I'm bad luck. Feeling well enough I decided to fix RTBP a big dinner after the game. He's pretty happy that I'm feeling better. Apparently 2 1/2 days without is torture for himn now. This weekend left me with a lot to think about and I can't wait for IC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin and I have had a rough weekend. Lots of hurt feelings on his part. Not gonna give up hope on us. Please say a prayer for us if you pray. I truly love him and am totally devoted to him. It takes time for him to believe and trust me, I get it. I have broken that trust and security he had in me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My prayers go out to both of you CSS. 

Calvin just like you told me, you've got a good woman with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> My prayers go out to both of you CSS.
> 
> Calvin just like you told me, you've got a good woman with you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I know FG.
Couple setbacks this week but nothing that can't be overcome.
I love her.
Night all.
Bears????
Nevermind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Ok I just again told RTBP about my dreams and my hopes for our future. I asked him about his and he joked he dreams about me and Scarlett Johansson making out on top of him.  

Can tell he's in a good mood because he's being an a-- right now. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Yeah I know FG.
> Couple setbacks this week but nothing that can't be overcome.
> I love her.
> Night all.
> Bears????
> Nevermind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry about that. I watched the whole game with RTBP. He called me bad luck. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Back in full R with my partner again. He came home yesterday looking absolutely shattered. Very apologetic and full of empathy. He completely understands how a lie will destroy us. It almost did this week. We talked and talked. Learnt more about ourselves. It was good.

He has learnt his lesson. Fresh start again and no more lies from now on.

Man last week was mentally exhausting. I hope he can keep his promise as each time this happens, I seem to love him less :-(


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



hibiscus said:


> Back in full R with my partner again. He came home yesterday looking absolutely shattered. Very apologetic and full of empathy. He completely understands how a lie will destroy us. It almost did this week. We talked and talked. Learnt more about ourselves. It was good.
> 
> He has learnt his lesson. Fresh start again and no more lies from now on.
> 
> Man last week was mentally exhausting. I hope he can keep his promise as each time this happens, I seem to love him less :-(


Glad to hear you're feeling better about the relationship. He can build back those feelings of love over time. Just keep communicating and learning.


----------



## hibiscus

bfree said:


> Glad to hear you're feeling better about the relationship. He can build back those feelings of love over time. Just keep communicating and learning.


Thanks Bfree. It will take time till I feel "in love" with him again. I feel annoyed by him as this drama was so unnecessary.

Just exhausted and empty. I am sure I will feel better as the weeks go past.


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Back in full R with my partner again. He came home yesterday looking absolutely shattered. Very apologetic and full of empathy. He completely understands how a lie will destroy us. It almost did this week. We talked and talked. Learnt more about ourselves. It was good.
> 
> He has learnt his lesson. Fresh start again and no more lies from now on.
> 
> Man last week was mentally exhausting. I hope he can keep his promise as each time this happens, I seem to love him less :-(


Glad to hear you're back on board with R. I hope he learned his lesson. I'm sure you're loving feelings will return after a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Doing much better today. I think part of my problem over the weekend was that I was bedridden and wasn't doing anything to distract me so I had too much time alone with my thoughts. I have my IC appointment tomorrow. I made sure to visit RTBP earlier than I usually do for some extra quality time together. He's been in a good mood lately so I'm grateful for that. Unfortunately he didn't come home directly after class today, he's at his MT gym having a sparring session. That means he's going to be really sore when he gets home so I'm going to get his bath water ready so he can soak and inflate the air mattress so I can give him a massage to relax his muscles. The least I can do after he took such good care of me over the weekend. 

I've also come up with a plan on what to do in 2 months which is when the A started. Have a nice weekend together away from home. Going to start making preparations for it tomorrow. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Doing much better today. I think part of my problem over the weekend was that I was bedridden and wasn't doing anything to distract me so I had too much time alone with my thoughts. I have my IC appointment tomorrow. I made sure to visit RTBP earlier than I usually do for some extra quality time together. He's been in a good mood lately so I'm grateful for that. Unfortunately he didn't come home directly after class today, he's at his MT gym having a sparring session. That means he's going to be really sore when he gets home so I'm going to get his bath water ready so he can soak and inflate the air mattress so I can give him a massage to relax his muscles. The least I can do after he took such good care of me over the weekend.
> 
> I've also come up with a plan on what to do in 2 months which is when the A started. Have a nice weekend together away from home. Going to start making preparations for it tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you babe.


----------



## hibiscus

Forever Grateful said:


> Doing much better today. I think part of my problem over the weekend was that I was bedridden and wasn't doing anything to distract me so I had too much time alone with my thoughts. I have my IC appointment tomorrow. I made sure to visit RTBP earlier than I usually do for some extra quality time together. He's been in a good mood lately so I'm grateful for that. Unfortunately he didn't come home directly after class today, he's at his MT gym having a sparring session. That means he's going to be really sore when he gets home so I'm going to get his bath water ready so he can soak and inflate the air mattress so I can give him a massage to relax his muscles. The least I can do after he took such good care of me over the weekend.
> 
> I've also come up with a plan on what to do in 2 months which is when the A started. Have a nice weekend together away from home. Going to start making preparations for it tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's the best thing to do FG. Have a romantic weekend and focus on how far the two of you have come as a couple. My 2 year anniversary is in two weeks and we are going to splash out on a nice meal and focus on ourselves.


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> That's the best thing to do FG. Have a romantic weekend and focus on how far the two of you have come as a couple. My 2 year anniversary is in two weeks and we are going to splash out on a nice meal and focus on ourselves.


That's the plan. Hopefully it will go down smoothly. Wow that's right around the corner for you two.I hope you to have a wonderful time and that you've recovered your loving feelings by then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Forever Grateful said:


> That's the plan. Hopefully it will go down smoothly. Wow that's right around the corner for you two.I hope you to have a wonderful time and that you've recovered your loving feelings by then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well this recent stint from my partner has reopened my wound again but I made the decision to forgive him and give him the benefit of the doubt. I will focus on loving him again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Well this recent stint from my partner has reopened my wound again but I made the decision to forgive him and give him the benefit of the doubt. I will focus on loving him again
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope he realizes what a precious gift you've given him. No more lies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GreenThumb

Hello all, 

A general question for BSs, but I'm sure WSs could chime in with their perspectives: 

During R, have you ever felt smothered by the post-A attention of WS? Don't misunderstand me...I enjoy the attention, but at various times I feel that he's either trying to make-up for lost time or imposing the type of attention he gave to AP on me. I don't know how to tell him I feel smothered without hurting his feelings as I know how hard he's trying to focus on me and our M. 

IC says WS is potentially feeling insecure due to the tenuous nature of M. 

Thoughts?

Thanks!


----------



## Forever Grateful

GreenThumb said:


> Hello all,
> 
> A general question for BSs, but I'm sure WSs could chime in with their perspectives:
> 
> During R, have you ever felt smothered by the post-A attention of WS? Don't misunderstand me...I enjoy the attention, but at various times I feel that he's either trying to make-up for lost time or imposing the type of attention he gave to AP on me. I don't know how to tell him I feel smothered without hurting his feelings as I know how hard he's trying to focus on me and our M.
> 
> IC says WS is potentially feeling insecure due to the tenuous nature of M.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!


I'm the WS and my husband said he felt smothered by me. After Dday he left for about 2 weeks and I feared that we were over and then he came back. I had a maniac need to show him how mucb I loved him and I pretty much tried to stick to him like glue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

GreenThumb said:


> Hello all,
> 
> A general question for BSs, but I'm sure WSs could chime in with their perspectives:
> 
> During R, have you ever felt smothered by the post-A attention of WS? Don't misunderstand me...I enjoy the attention, but at various times I feel that he's either trying to make-up for lost time or imposing the type of attention he gave to AP on me. I don't know how to tell him I feel smothered without hurting his feelings as I know how hard he's trying to focus on me and our M.
> 
> IC says WS is potentially feeling insecure due to the tenuous nature of M.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!


My (betrayed) partner says that when I first started pleading with her to consider R, I was extremely clingy and desperate. She felt smothered by that. I felt insecure and terrified.


----------



## CantSitStill

My reason for being clingy is because I kept thinking to myself"I almost lost him! ". It's that feeling you get sorta like the same as if someone had a near death experience, so then they feel the need to cherish every moment with their partner or spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Yeah what soulpotato and CanSitStill said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> My (betrayed) partner says that when I first started pleading with her to consider R, I was extremely clingy and desperate. She felt smothered by that. I felt insecure and terrified.


Breaking radio silence,I'm supposed to be taking a break from Tams.
Green Thumb,
My wife was scared,still is sometimes and we are 20 months into R.
I think they hit a brick wall and realised exactly the pain they caused and then they
are desperate to fix things the best they can.
They are scared.They are ashamed and don't know excatly what to do.
I feel they are desperate to prove them selves and make up for lost ground.
It has'nt been that long for you so give it time and give him a chance if he is true.
He's trying to run a race,R is a marathon.
Counseling,books and advice from the good folks here will really help you both.
Me and my wife were...(still are sometimes) a basket case.
Hang around,you both will get help here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Hi Greenthumb,
Yes my WS has smothered me at times. He tells me he loves me everyday and gets upset if I don't reply. One time he asked me if I was ok at least four times in 30 mins. I told him to knock it off.lol

But I do enjoy the attention he gives me generally. Sometimes he will buy me flowers for no apparent reason. I love that.


----------



## hibiscus

Folks I need to disappear for a while. I am becoming too obsessed with TAM and the new threads of infedelity is fueling a lot of negativity in me. 
I need to focus on my R so it's better for me to take a break. Will be back soon.
Good luck everyone


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Folks I need to disappear for a while. I am becoming too obsessed with TAM and the new threads of infedelity is fueling a lot of negativity in me.
> I need to focus on my R so it's better for me to take a break. Will be back soon.
> Good luck everyone


Hate to see you go but I understand. Some of the other threads can be disheartening. Good luck with your R and I look forward to your return!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Good day. RTBP aced one of his exams so I'm proud of him! I went with him to his MT gm to watch today. I haven't done that in awhile. A couple of weeks ago I said I hate his MT, I take it back. Watching him work a heavy bag is so hot. God he is so sexy! We're back home now and he's in the shower, I'd join him but we have MC tonight.  For future reference I will not go watch him unless our schedule is clear afterwards. Seriously I almost want to cancel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> My reason for being clingy is because I kept thinking to myself"I almost lost him! ". It's that feeling you get sorta like the same as if someone had a near death experience, so then they feel the need to cherish every moment with their partner or spouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: It's EXACTLY like that.


----------



## calvin

hibiscus said:


> Folks I need to disappear for a while. I am becoming too obsessed with TAM and the new threads of infedelity is fueling a lot of negativity in me.
> I need to focus on my R so it's better for me to take a break. Will be back soon.
> Good luck everyone


Good luck and take car hibiscus.
Tams is a blessing and a curse,I have been staying away from CWI,it's not good for me.
Keep us updated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

hibiscus said:


> Folks I need to disappear for a while. I am becoming too obsessed with TAM and the new threads of infedelity is fueling a lot of negativity in me.
> I need to focus on my R so it's better for me to take a break. Will be back soon.
> Good luck everyone


Take a TAM vacation. This place is helpful but its emotionally taxing to say the least. Come back when you feel like it. We will be here when you need us.


----------



## soulpotato

This past weekend was mostly very good, though we ended up arguing about what yelling was AGAIN.  GF tried very hard to make it special and went to three different stores to get flowers to make the bouquet she wanted for me. When I walked in, she had the flowers sitting on the dining room table with tea lights already lit and a card. She wrote mushy things in the card and I teared up while reading it despite myself. (I really cried on her on Sunday when we were talking about some heavier things and I apologized for not being strong enough to leave her instead of having EAs.)

She also had plans to cook for me and give me a massage, but that ended up not happening because she was too tired and kind of set herself up for too much, LOL. So we cooked together and postponed the massage for maybe this weekend. We both actually felt sick on Saturday, so we were just lying in bed cuddled up for hours while we looked at pictures of rings.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> This past weekend was mostly very good, though we ended up arguing about what yelling was AGAIN.  GF tried very hard to make it special and went to three different stores to get flowers to make the bouquet she wanted for me. When I walked in, she had the flowers sitting on the dining room table with tea lights already lit and a card. She wrote mushy things in the card and I teared up while reading it despite myself. (I really cried on her on Sunday when we were talking about some heavier things and I apologized for not being strong enough to leave her instead of having EAs.)
> 
> She also had plans to cook for me and give me a massage, but that ended up not happening because she was too tired and kind of set herself up for too much, LOL. So we cooked together and postponed the massage for maybe this weekend. We both actually felt sick on Saturday, so we were just lying in bed cuddled up for hours while we looked at pictures of rings.


 Good stuff Sp,I predict things are going to be fine for you both,I feel it.
Me and CSS are doing good,this is a strange new routine for me coming home
and doing some cooking and cleaning but I'm fine with it,I don't have to do it every day.
I'm letting go of the toxic,bullsh!t feelings I had,I'm done with it.
We can't be in reconciliation forever,at one point we should have reconciled.
I feel we are.
She loves me I love her to pieces.
I'm done being a scared, stubborn,stupid BS.
CSS is a FWS.....I'm a FBS.
I nerver thought of myself as a FORMER BS but I am.
No one is betraying me now,well no one that matters anyway.
CSS and a few others mean the world to me,the rest can go jump.
I got a handle finally,I really think I do.
Except for my Bears,those $%*#@* better not let me down again.
I always have my Hawks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Calvin, I know it has to be hard to not respond to triggers that make you fear something is going to happen. Every person and story is different, every couple unique, and people heal at different rates (and some aren't able to heal at all). With your situation, you had the OM continually harassing, so that had to slow down healing (for CSS, too). But I'm positive you will get there. You guys are healing. 

Something GF and I have talked about is wounds. How you can inflict wounds on each other (especially during bad times and betrayals of various sorts) that never really go away. They get better, and you don't feel them very much during good times, but when anything hits too close, you remember they're there and you definitely FEEL them. They never completely go away because they're too deep. It's easy to think at those times that it's an infection that needs to be attacked rather than a deep wound that is just going to bother you sometimes. It can be tough to tell the difference.

P.S. Thank you for believing in me, and in GF and I as a couple (both you and CSS).


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> This past weekend was mostly very good, though we ended up arguing about what yelling was AGAIN.  GF tried very hard to make it special and went to three different stores to get flowers to make the bouquet she wanted for me. When I walked in, she had the flowers sitting on the dining room table with tea lights already lit and a card. She wrote mushy things in the card and I teared up while reading it despite myself. (I really cried on her on Sunday when we were talking about some heavier things and I apologized for not being strong enough to leave her instead of having EAs.)
> 
> She also had plans to cook for me and give me a massage, but that ended up not happening because she was too tired and kind of set herself up for too much, LOL. So we cooked together and postponed the massage for maybe this weekend. We both actually felt sick on Saturday, so we were just lying in bed cuddled up for hours while we looked at pictures of rings.


This is great news SP! Sounds like such a sweet weekend. Hope you top i t this upcoming weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Calvin, I know it has to be hard to not respond to triggers that make you fear something is going to happen. Every person and story is different, every couple unique, and people heal at different rates (and some aren't able to heal at all). With your situation, you had the OM continually harassing, so that had to slow down healing (for CSS, too). But I'm positive you will get there. You guys are healing.
> 
> Something GF and I have talked about is wounds. How you can inflict wounds on each other (especially during bad times and betrayals of various sorts) that never really go away. They get better, and you don't feel them very much during good times, but when anything hits too close, you remember they're there and you definitely FEEL them. They never completely go away because they're too deep. It's easy to think at those times that it's an infection that needs to be attacked rather than a deep wound that is just going to bother you sometimes. It can be tough to tell the difference.
> 
> P.S. Thank you for believing in me, and in GF and I as a couple (both you and CSS).


Yep,the wound is there but its scar tissue now.
It itches,I scratch it but I can't keep holding us back.
I got to a point where I liked being the victim instead of a husband CSS can lean on any time she needs it.
Its hard to describe,I was a victim .....but I fell into a dumb a$$ mindset that I
was wronged,yes I was but I held on to it. Gimme some sympathy people!
Look what she did too me! Feel sorry for me!
That crap should have stopped awhile ago.
Time for me and CSS to be happy and move on together.
You and GF are headed in the right direction,there will be set backs but that's not
Always a bad thing,you learn and try harder.
Keep climbing Sp,you guys will reach the summit.
Don't give up,even when you want to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> This past weekend was mostly very good, though we ended up arguing about what yelling was AGAIN.  GF tried very hard to make it special and went to three different stores to get flowers to make the bouquet she wanted for me. When I walked in, she had the flowers sitting on the dining room table with tea lights already lit and a card. She wrote mushy things in the card and I teared up while reading it despite myself. (I really cried on her on Sunday when we were talking about some heavier things and I apologized for not being strong enough to leave her instead of having EAs.)
> 
> She also had plans to cook for me and give me a massage, but that ended up not happening because she was too tired and kind of set herself up for too much, LOL. So we cooked together and postponed the massage for maybe this weekend. We both actually felt sick on Saturday, so we were just lying in bed cuddled up for hours while we looked at pictures of rings.


That sounds really nice. I love snuggling up with the Mrs too. She's so snuggable.


----------



## bfree

Wait...looking at rings? Hmmmm :-0


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Good day. RTBP aced one of his exams so I'm proud of him! I went with him to his MT gm to watch today. I haven't done that in awhile. A couple of weeks ago I said I hate his MT, I take it back. Watching him work a heavy bag is so hot. God he is so sexy! We're back home now and he's in the shower, I'd join him but we have MC tonight.  For future reference I will not go watch him unless our schedule is clear afterwards. Seriously I almost want to cancel.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like how you waited to tell me all after the fact. I would've had no problem skipping!


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> That sounds really nice. I love snuggling up with the Mrs too. She's so snuggable.


One of my favorite things in the world is cuddling with GF.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Wait...looking at rings? Hmmmm :-0


Yes, for a few months from now. Are you worried? Come on, bfree, spit out your thoughts.


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> One of my favorite things in the world is cuddling with GF.


I LOVE to cuddle with RTBP! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I like how you waited to tell me all after the fact. I would've had no problem skipping!


Sorry babe. How about another post MC session? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> Yes, for a few months from now. Are you worried? Come on, bfree, spit out your thoughts.


Oh google search some of the geeky rings! They are awesome!


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Sorry babe. How about another post MC session?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And with that I wish everyone a good night!


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> Oh google search some of the geeky rings! They are awesome!


She really wants something celtic.  But now you have me intrigued!


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I LOVE to cuddle with RTBP!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love to cuddle with my Beagle,she don't like it so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> She really wants something celtic.  But now you have me intrigued!


There is ONE ring to rule them all... Now go make your pick


----------



## jupiter13

Update: I got some more answers to my questions. Wouldn't you know that has lead to other questions.. Out of list of 31 questions he choose to only answer 8. then to top it off the story changed. We had court today so it has been a very stressful day with small blow ups. Tonight he wants to cuddle and watch a movie. Never got the movie on he fell asleep. All the time he is telling me "I'm here for you baby," and "what can I do to help you?" My head keeps playing over and over again "Don't trust him This man can not be trusted. Don't fall for his lies. He ain't proved Sh~t yet."" Once again I put on my ring for appearances and removed it when I got home. I can not seem to stop crying either. I am still crying everyday 728 DOT (days of tears) and every time after we have been "picking peaches" I have to get up and away from him. Usually Crying myself to sleep somewhere other than next to him. Not doing well right now and I don't feel I can open up to him so it's like I'm keeping secrets but I still don't feel safe. How much is this becasue of him or my past I'm not sure but it was his behavior that has started me down this road again. Night all I think my mind has finally closed for now and it's about time. It gets going on auto pilot and don't stop.


----------



## cpacan

Jupiter, I'm sorry for the way you feel. I can't see this work for you if he doesn't answer your questions. It's not healthy for you.

What kind of questions is it he won't answer?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> Yes, for a few months from now. Are you worried? Come on, bfree, spit out your thoughts.


Worried? Not at all. I just want to get the full scoop. Are these "tie the knot" rings?


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Worried? Not at all. I just want to get the full scoop. Are these "tie the knot" rings?


We got bands a few years ago, but what we're thinking now is to get something thin enough to be worn along with the original bands to commemorate R/the start of our new commitment. As for actually getting married...we'd have to go to another state for that.  We've recently discussed it, however, and she says she would be game a little further down the line.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> We got bands a few years ago, but what we're thinking now is to get something thin enough to be worn along with the original bands to commemorate R/the start of our new commitment. As for actually getting married...we'd have to go to another state for that.  We've recently discussed it, however, and she says she would be game a little further down the line.


Sounds great. I know a lot of couples that got new bands to commemorate the new relationship/marriage. Yeah the marriage thing...I'm Christian and I do tend to lean toward more conservative Christian ideas. But as far as who you should love? I think it doesn't matter. And if there was more love in the world we would all be much better off. People should be able to marry whoever they want to share the rest of their lives with. Souls don't have gender.


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> She really wants something celtic.  But now you have me intrigued!


Some of them are really cute. There's a Star Wars his & her set that I like. The her band says 'I love you' and the his bans says 'I know' just like in Empire. I'd kind of want those should RTBP agree to renew our vows. My mom would have a fit through! 

Don't judge me people, Star Wars is awesome! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

SP, if you and your GF are looking for celtic jewelry my wife said I should post two links to stores she's purchased from in the past. They're both located in the general vicinity of Dublin and she said they seem to be very reputable.

This guy deals in jewelry and antiques. My wife loves both!

McManus Jewellers and Antique Dealers - based in Dun Laoghaire, Dublin, Ireland


This woman designs and makes her own jewelry. I don't think she has rings but my wife has purchased bracelets and necklaces from her. They are really exquisite.

Fine Irish Handcrafted Jewellery in Comtemporary and Classic Designs at affordable prices. Also wedding and bridal jewellery collections.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Some of them are really cute. There's a Star Wars his & her set that I like. The her band says 'I love you' and the his bans says 'I know' just like in Empire. I'd kind of want those should RTBP agree to renew our vows. My mom would have a fit through!
> 
> Don't judge me people, Star Wars is awesome!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok...

1. Aren't you jumping the gun a bit?

2. No way in HELL am I wearing a Star Wars ring.

3. Yes your mom would kill you.

4.No way in HELL am I wearing a Star Wars ring. (Needed to be repeated)


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Here's the best geeky ring of all time:

http://www.themarysue.com/r2-d2-ring/2/


----------



## Forever Grateful

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Here's the best geeky ring of all time:
> 
> Onswipe


 That is so AWESOME! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Here's the best geeky ring of all time:
> 
> Star Wars R2-D2 Engagement Ring Is Out Of This World | The Mary Sue


Just for that I'm going to feed you to the Sarlacc.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Sounds great. I know a lot of couples that got new bands to commemorate the new relationship/marriage. Yeah the marriage thing...I'm Christian and I do tend to lean toward more conservative Christian ideas. But as far as who you should love? I think it doesn't matter. And if there was more love in the world we would all be much better off. People should be able to marry whoever they want to share the rest of their lives with. Souls don't have gender.


Thank you, bfree. I really appreciate that. A lot of the people I work with are Christian, too, but while they're fine with me as a person, they will still tell me it's wrong for me to want to marry GF and that I should never be able to do so.  Really hurts and it is tough to reconcile with other things. So it means a lot to me that you feel differently.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> SP, if you and your GF are looking for celtic jewelry my wife said I should post two links to stores she's purchased from in the past. They're both located in the general vicinity of Dublin and she said they seem to be very reputable.
> 
> This guy deals in jewelry and antiques. My wife loves both!
> 
> McManus Jewellers and Antique Dealers - based in Dun Laoghaire, Dublin, Ireland
> 
> 
> This woman designs and makes her own jewelry. I don't think she has rings but my wife has purchased bracelets and necklaces from her. They are really exquisite.
> 
> Fine Irish Handcrafted Jewellery in Comtemporary and Classic Designs at affordable prices. Also wedding and bridal jewellery collections.


Thank you for the links and info, that's very kind of you and Mrs. bfree.  Please thank her for me.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Thank you for the links and info, that's very kind of you and Mrs. bfree.  Please thank her for me.


 Bfree's alright,is'nt he?
Good dude,very giving man.
He ain't no Bandit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Yes, I like bfree.  He's also very insightful and wise.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Yes, I like bfree.  He's also very insightful and wise.


 No arguement there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

My feeling as a christian is this : ok we are all sinners..no one should judge or point to others,! Sexual immortality means having sex before you are married and other things like orgies, beasiality and other things.there are people that struggle with the sin of gossip or lying or well let's just all admit we are all sinners and we should worry about having a relationship with God, even those of us that aren't pure. Are any of us without sin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

OMG rings again. WH sent email that he is looking to replace mine along with a ceremony in a real church and he wants to write his own vows. Made me want to puke. He wrote his own vows last time so what difference would it really make now. If the vows couldn't be honored the first time will it even make a difference a second time. So this afternoon I presented him with an alternative prepaid funeral arrangements. Everything set in stone and no one will have to lift a finger. He panic so bad thinking there was something I was not telling him. So I guess I hadn't told him the complete truth my COPD is stage 3 but that doesn't mean a death sentence yet. He finally came around to understand it was like a security plan for me. I have to feel secure and this is one way to get that.

cpacan: he won't answer the questions about his actual comings and goings while seeing her and I was so sick. He can't tell me how many times or what they talked about. He is and does want to work on the problems between us. He says he had not grown up yet. While I could have bought that 5 years ago I will not accept that as an excuse now. He gives me bits and pieces to the whats and whens but now the story changed. He is finally getting that we can work on the problems but it is not going to get him what he wants. He wants to move forward as if it never happened. He made a bad choice in a week moment and was sorry as soon as he did it. Thing is I know him too well. For me he has to come clean about everything put it in the light or it will never go away for him especially for me. I also think he has finally got it about the trust he has broken. He won't get it all back and can expect to always have me suspect of everything that seems off to me. On the other hand He is smothering me to death wanting attention and to spend time with me as he never wanted to spend time watching TV or movies before and I am resentful. Now that I can walk again and get up and do things I really don't want to be sitting around. He don't get it. I've been doing things that I know bother him just to get his reaction especially when it's his own behavior mirrored and he don't like it. Then I can point out that it is no different than his own, he has come to understand that more lately. Many nights I don't sleep in our bed I just can't be that close to him. Relations are always good until afterwards for me. He is always happy about things but it is coming to the point for me that I may have to do a 180 by simply moving into my sewing room and let him know I can no long maintain a sexual relationship with him while she is still between us. He claims the sex was not intimate, well I would say it is. That is a clear example of the difference of the male and female view of things. All in all he is trying but I have to have this my way and he has even asked what difference it would make if I didn't know everything? He had originally said he couldn't remember because he was high on drugs but just this week he says he wasn't using with her he would get the drugs and leave. So which is it and really what are you hiding from? For me he has to answer the questions and I will not be satisfied until he does. So he can drag his feet all he wants I will not let up on him.Yes it's been two years but I pointed out that everything I read says 2 to 5 and then that was for someone that didn't get hands laid on them so add some more time as my PTSD issues are back. I continuously point out that this is all these problems is the damage of his choice something he has never had to face before. He has always just moved forward with dealing with the fall out not this time. I am getting to a place where I know I will be fine without him. I sort of was before him so why not be after him he is not he last man on earth. Nor do I need to saddle myself down with just one man to be happy. Tam is the only place I can vent ask questions and relate to others. I have no real friend friends I can talk to in this town and we are sort of isolated anyways. I love this man and I have know many in my life but there is just something about him that I want to keep. I do believe all this will make him a better person in the long run, it just happens to be at my expense. Night all got to try and get some sleep, I am still not sleeping more than 3 to 4 hours at a time but my brain will not run at all without it:sleeping:


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> My feeling as a christian is this : ok we are all sinners..no one should judge or point to others,! Sexual immortality means having sex before you are married and other things like orgies, beasiality and other things.there are people that struggle with the sin of gossip or lying or well let's just all admit we are all sinners and we should worry about having a relationship with God, even those of us that aren't pure. Are any of us without sin?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, that's true, no one is without sin. No one is pure. Everyone has different beliefs, too. I wish everyone could agree or disagree without condemnation, and let others live as they would. As long as people aren't hurting or killing each other (or animals, of course). 

Even if the whole world told me that loving GF and wanting to tie my life to hers was a sin or an abomination, I couldn't believe it. She is one of the few good, right choices I've made in my personal life. (Note I didn't say without complications, lol. We are both damaged people.) As my therapist said, we live our lives trying to strike a balance between thanatos and eros, and I kept veering towards thanatos because I was breaking apart inside. But when I chose GF, that was my first really strong choice for life, for living. We both feel that we belong together despite everything that has happened. She said that she still feels I am worth it.

I have many sins on my tally sheet. Cheating on her was a sin. Not being forthcoming about the extent of my EAs was a sin. Hurting her was a sin. Trying to hide from her pain was a sin. Hiding my weaknesses from her was a sin.

Falling in love with her, however, was grace and a blessing. I know this on the deepest levels of my being. I was lucky that day. And the day I met GF was the day I started trying to put the pieces of myself back together.


----------



## bfree

SP, if that's the case then we are all damaged people. And when I say that I don't just mean those in this thread or even on TAM. Everyone has issues and problems, it's just a matter of which one(s). The key is how we manage them on a daily basis and how we deal with them long term. Never put yourself down or look at yourself or your partner as damaged. You're just like everyone else....complicated.


----------



## Refuse to be played

I swear FG is a ninja or something! I ran 8 miles this morning so I take a nap for a few hrs on the couch and when I wake up she's cuddle up on top of me sleep with her head on my chest. I really didn't hear or feel her and have no idea how long she been there. The first few weeks after Dday this would've annoyed me but now I like it.

We're both up now but that little thing made me smile and made my day. I love FG...


----------



## happyman64

Refuse to be played said:


> I swear FG is a ninja or something! I ran 8 miles this morning so I take a nap for a few hrs on the couch and when I wake up she's cuddle up on top of me sleep with her head on my chest. I really didn't hear or feel her and have no idea how long she been there. The first few weeks after Dday this would've annoyed me but now I like it.
> 
> We're both up now but that little thing made me smile and made my day. I love FG...


When you don't wakeup and her head is in your lap is when you know she is a real ninja! 

On a serious note I am glad you are happy!


----------



## Refuse to be played

happyman64 said:


> When you don't wakeup and her head is in your lap is when you know she is a real ninja!
> 
> On a serious note I am glad you are happy!


That happens in the mornings. While not as impressive because I go to bed in just boxers, the effort on her part is greatly appropriated.

I am happy. For the first time in a long time I can honestly say that I am. Yeah there is still some issues but for the most part I'm good and I want and love my wife.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> I swear FG is a ninja or something! I ran 8 miles this morning so I take a nap for a few hrs on the couch and when I wake up she's cuddle up on top of me sleep with her head on my chest. I really didn't hear or feel her and have no idea how long she been there. The first few weeks after Dday this would've annoyed me but now I like it.
> 
> We're both up now but that little thing made me smile and made my day. I love FG...


I love you too RTBP! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> That happens in the mornings. While not as impressive because I go to bed in just boxers, the effort on her part is greatly appropriated.
> 
> I am happy. For the first time in a long time I can honestly say that I am. Yeah there is still some issues but for the most part I'm good and I want and love my wife.


I'm so glad to hear this. It makes me happy that you're happy. Thank you! I love you so much babe! Let's stay in tonight, what say you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Man, I have been gone a while. Why in the world did Dig get banned?


----------



## user_zero

soulpotato said:


> Yes, that's true, no one is without sin. No one is pure. Everyone has different beliefs, too. I wish everyone could agree or disagree without condemnation, and let others live as they would. As long as people aren't hurting or killing each other (or animals, of course).
> 
> Even if the whole world told me that loving GF and wanting to tie my life to hers was a sin or an abomination, I couldn't believe it. She is one of the few good, right choices I've made in my personal life. (Note I didn't say without complications, lol. We are both damaged people.) As my therapist said, we live our lives trying to strike a balance between thanatos and eros, and I kept veering towards thanatos because I was breaking apart inside. But when I chose GF, that was my first really strong choice for life, for living. We both feel that we belong together despite everything that has happened. She said that she still feels I am worth it.
> 
> *I have many sins on my tally sheet. Cheating on her was a sin. Not being forthcoming about the extent of my EAs was a sin. Hurting her was a sin. Trying to hide from her pain was a sin. Hiding my weaknesses from her was a sin.
> 
> Falling in love with her, however, was grace and a blessing. I know this on the deepest levels of my being. I was lucky that day. And the day I met GF was the day I started trying to put the pieces of myself back together. *


I like the bold part in your post. I believe being able to recognize our wrong choices and right ones is good quality for any of us no matter what our religion , country or background is.

I think the first step to right a wrong is recognize the wrong. the second step is trying to right it as best as we can : by asking for forgiveness of those we did wrong, make positive steps to make sure we don't do that sin(wrong) ever again, to prove we are worth the forgiveness. being stuck in step #1 is not going to help anyone. trust me.

you know in my religion we have a concept called 'tobe'. basically it means when you did a wrong thing. you should ask for forgiveness from those you did wrong. and do the best you can to prove that you're ashamed of you did. I read that you know the 'tobe' really happened when you remember the memories of wrong things you've done, you don't feel any happiness or 'sweetness in your tongue' (if you know what I mean) ... instead ... you feel sadness , shame , 'bitterness in your tongue'. that means you are a different person. a better person. your 'Taste preferences' is different. you no longer enjoy that sin.

it's really hard to put my thoughts in english. I hope it helps you.


----------



## Acabado

Hi pidge! How are you doing friend?

Dig got banned because... he couldn't help himself. You know how easy is to **** on the guidelines if you are not always focused on behaving.
He's missed.


----------



## happyman64

pidge70 said:


> Man, I have been gone a while. Why in the world did Dig get banned?


I think he was permabanned.

It is explained somewhere on TAM.


----------



## Acabado

It was his third ban, the second was permanent too but his wife managed to find friends here to help him to make it temporal. That was the final chance.


----------



## calvin

Go Bears!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> SP, if that's the case then we are all damaged people. And when I say that I don't just mean those in this thread or even on TAM. Everyone has issues and problems, it's just a matter of which one(s). The key is how we manage them on a daily basis and how we deal with them long term. Never put yourself down or look at yourself or your partner as damaged. You're just like everyone else....complicated.


Thanks, bfree, but that wasn't really what I meant.  Of course everyone has problems... I'm just being realistic when I say we're damaged. 

I wish I _were_ just like everyone else. It would make things a hell of a lot easier.


----------



## GreenThumb

Hello everyone
I need some support from the BSs out there, maybe even the WSs. Really at what I'd describe as a low point right now in R. WH "seems" to be doing all he can to assure me, but when we part after time together he appears sad and pouty for lack of another word. Then I inwardly think that he's at fault for us having to part. Some of the time it's because he can't and I won't allow him to stay overnight out of respect for my young adult children who have been coming home for weekends. Both of them are still hurting and feel he doesn't deserve me and R. WH wants to be affectionate in their presence but won't out of respect for them again. I feel torn and lately have seriously felt D would be so much easier. Then I think about what love I have left for him, yet can't shake the feeling that I may never fully feel happy and fully invested in the M again. I liken it to a part of my love for him that's died and I'm afraid I'll never be able to regain. Is WH not doing enough heavy lifting or is this normal part of R?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Hello everyone
> I need some support from the BSs out there, maybe even the WSs. Really at what I'd describe as a low point right now in R. *WH "seems" to be doing all he can to assure me*, but when we part after time together he appears sad and pouty for lack of another word. Then I inwardly think that he's at fault for us having to part. Some of the time it's because he can't and I won't allow him to stay overnight out of respect for my young adult children who have been coming home for weekends. Both of them are still hurting and feel he doesn't deserve me and R. WH wants to be affectionate in their presence but won't out of respect for them again. I feel torn and lately have seriously felt D would be so much easier. Then I think about what love I have left for him, yet can't shake the feeling that I may never fully feel happy and fully invested in the M again. I liken it to a part of my love for him that's died and I'm afraid I'll never be able to regain. *Is WH not doing enough heavy lifting or is this normal part of R?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your recent posts indicate that he is doing everything that he can for now. *What more would you like him to do?*
> 
> 
> I am going to attempt to print a summary for your situation below:
> 
> 
> Your husband has cheated on you with an EA and a PA?
> You put him out of your home and he is living with relatives
> You have been using a VAR on him for several months and have found nothing against him
> Your husband wants to be affectionate but out of respect for your children he refrains
> Your husband seems to be doing everything that he can to assure you.
> Your R time so far is 3-6 months?
> 
> 
> *Please correct any errors and add anything that I left out.*


----------



## hibiscus

Hi I am back. Havnt had the chance to read up on everyone's posts as yet.
The break did me a world of good. My anger is gone and back being happy with my partner. 

Our two year anniversary is on Saturday and he says he has a surprise for me. I like surprises. ;-)


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Hi I am back. Havnt had the chance to read up on everyone's posts as yet.
> The break did me a world of good. My anger is gone and back being happy with my partner.
> 
> Our two year anniversary is on Saturday and he says he has a surprise for me. I like surprises. ;-)


Glad to see that you're back hibiscus. Everyone needs a break from here it seems. Me and RTBP have been off for a bit too. It's good to hear that you're happy with your partner again. Hope you enjoy your anniversary coming up! Pulling for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## user_zero

soulpotato said:


> Thanks, bfree, but that wasn't really what I meant.  Of course everyone has problems... I'm just being realistic when I say we're damaged.
> 
> *I wish I were just like everyone else. It would make things a hell of a lot easier.*


if people criticize the wrong actions you've done and the way of thinking that lead to it, then I agree with them. I say they are right. but if they criticize what you're doing now and your current way of thinking based on what you've done before without any reasonable explanation, then I say they are just being bullies. I think recognizing the difference is very important. it requires the right mixture of self-confidence and humility. as you know having an unbalanced mixture either leads to over-confidence , arrogance or narcissim OR on the other hand low self-esteem , depression , ....

secondly , I think a better wish would be 'to become a better person everyday (better than the person you were the day before) in the terms of honesty , sincerity , kindness , forgiveness , humility , knowledge , respect , ....' instead of wishing becoming like everyone else which btw you probably you may find someday that they were not better than you! and then you're gonna feel betrayed and lost.

I wish you good luck.


----------



## GreenThumb

Mr Blunt said:


> Hello everyone
> I need some support from the BSs out there, maybe even the WSs. Really at what I'd describe as a low point right now in R. *WH "seems" to be doing all he can to assure me*, but when we part after time together he appears sad and pouty for lack of another word. Then I inwardly think that he's at fault for us having to part. Some of the time it's because he can't and I won't allow him to stay overnight out of respect for my young adult children who have been coming home for weekends. Both of them are still hurting and feel he doesn't deserve me and R. WH wants to be affectionate in their presence but won't out of respect for them again. I feel torn and lately have seriously felt D would be so much easier. Then I think about what love I have left for him, yet can't shake the feeling that I may never fully feel happy and fully invested in the M again. I liken it to a part of my love for him that's died and I'm afraid I'll never be able to regain. *Is WH not doing enough heavy lifting or is this normal part of R?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your recent posts indicate that he is doing everything that he can for now. *What more would you like him to do?*
> 
> 
> I am going to attempt to print a summary for your situation below:
> 
> 
> Your husband has cheated on you with an EA and a PA?
> You put him out of your home and he is living with relatives
> You have been using a VAR on him for several months and have found nothing against him
> Your husband wants to be affectionate but out of respect for your children he refrains
> Your husband seems to be doing everything that he can to assure you.
> Your R time so far is 3-6 months?
> 
> 
> *Please correct any errors and add anything that I left out.*
> 
> 
> 
> Blunt,
> You are correct on all accounts of prior posts. Five months out from Dday.
> I suppose I was asking if my feelings are "normal" as far as feeling resentful when WH appears pouty and feeling like a part of me has died.
Click to expand...


----------



## soulpotato

user_zero said:


> if people criticize the wrong actions you've done and the way of thinking that lead to it, then I agree with them. I say they are right. but if they criticize what you're doing now and your current way of thinking based on what you've done before without any reasonable explanation, then I say they are just being bullies. I think recognizing the difference is very important. it requires the right mixture of self-confidence and humility. as you know having an unbalanced mixture either leads to over-confidence , arrogance or narcissim OR on the other hand low self-esteem , depression , ....


I've typically received a lot of criticism regardless of what I've done. Often just for being different, not always for being wrong. If it's for being wrong, I expect it, but sometimes I need help in knowing which direction is the "right" or "acceptable" direction. If anything, I tend to lack confidence because I've often been told that I can't trust my thoughts and feelings/that they are wrong. Sometimes that's true, but I don't always know when those times are. Kind of hard to navigate in life that way, lol.

It is very frustrating and disheartening to be trying so hard to be a good person and to still end up not being a good person anyway. I don't think of myself as a good person anymore. GF still tells me I am a good person. I did lots of things right with her. But I cheated. A huge wrong against all the right things I did. I can never be good again. 



user_zero said:


> secondly , I think a better wish would be 'to become a better person everyday (better than the person you were the day before) in the terms of honesty , sincerity , kindness , forgiveness , humility , knowledge , respect , ....' instead of wishing becoming like everyone else which btw you probably you may find someday that they were not better than you! and then you're gonna feel betrayed and lost.
> 
> I wish you good luck.


I have lots of wishes and focuses. That's just one of them. (I wonder if anyone here really understood what I meant by that wish.) I am already trying to become a better person every day. Sadly, I was hard at work on that even before my EAs, so obviously failed there. But I don't stop trying, which can occasionally be a good quality, I suppose. Thank you.


----------



## user_zero

soulpotato , a few things :

1- I'm really curious how do you understand right thoughts from wrong ones. I mean really what is your standard?

2- you said "acceptable", by whom? by what standards? where did those standards come from.

3- I think you should write a definition of "good person" for yourself. and I suggest when you're trying to do that consider it to be morally right and be achievable. I really like to know your definition.

4- have you ever seen whose young girls who have self-image issues? you know the type , right? they use make up A LOT. dress something too revealing (almost dressed). always trying to attract the male attention. if you talk with these girls , you realized their father didn't appreciate them in a positive way. their father didn't tell them : "you're my pretty girl", obviously not enough. so the girls themselves can't say that phrase to themselves. they have to get that from other people. and even then it wouldn't be enough. because in their subconsciousness they have still doubt about so they can say again to themselves. no matter how much they work on their make up, even after hours, they still feel something's missing. now my point is : as long as YOU can't say that "you're a good person and deserve good things in you life (ofcourse with respect to morality and law)" , no matter how many times people here on TAM or in real life or even your GF say that to you , you won't believe it and therefore the effect always gonna be small. you always gonna find some excuse to doubt that.

I hope I didn't waste your time.


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> It is very frustrating and disheartening to be trying so hard to be a good person and to still end up not being a good person anyway. I don't think of myself as a good person anymore. GF still tells me I am a good person. I did lots of things right with her. But I cheated. A huge wrong against all the right things I did. I can never be good again.


I could have written this, verbatim, by simply replacing *GF* with *B1* and *her* with *him*. And, while I'll admit that my heart truly feels this way, I know that I would never judge anyone else as harshly as I have judged myself. My brain acknowledges that, although, we can never undo our transgressions and the damage that they have caused, we can accept responsibility for our poor choices, truly regret our poor choices, do everything humanly possible to make amends to those whom our choices have harmed, and make better choices every single day going forward. This is the closest that we'll ever be able to come to earn our redemption. It's the best we can possibly do. If we are fortunate enough to have the love and respect of those whom our poor choices harmed at the end of all of this then we are truly blessed. 

The greatest challenge I've faced thus far is accepting that I am worthy of the love, respect and forgiveness that I have been given by my loved ones. My brain tells me to accept this gift. My heart (or that little voice inside of my head) says they're better off without me even if they don't know it or won't admit it. This dialogue circles round and round in my brain in endless loops every day. Why am I sharing this? Because that's what we do on this thread. We share our journey.


----------



## EI

user_zero said:


> soulpotato , a few things :
> 
> 1- I'm really curious how do you understand right thoughts from wrong ones. I mean really what is your standard?
> 
> 2- you said "acceptable", by whom? by what standards? where did those standards come from.
> 
> 3- I think you should write a definition of "good person" for yourself. and I suggest when you're trying to do that consider it to be morally right and be achievable. I really like to know your definition.
> 
> 4- have you ever seen whose young girls who have self-image issues? you know the type , right? they use make up A LOT. dress something too revealing (almost dressed). always trying to attract the male attention. if you talk with these girls , you realized their father didn't appreciate them in a positive way. their father didn't tell them : "you're my pretty girl", obviously not enough. so the girls themselves can't say that phrase to themselves. they have to get that from other people. and even then it wouldn't be enough. because in their subconsciousness they have still doubt about so they can say again to themselves. no matter how much they work on their make up, even after hours, they still feel something's missing. now my point is : as long as YOU can't say that "you're a good person and deserve good things in you life (ofcourse with respect to morality and law)" , no matter how many times people here on TAM or in real life or even your GF say that to you , you won't believe it and therefore the effect always gonna be small. you always gonna find some excuse to doubt that.
> 
> I hope I didn't waste your time.


This is a very insightful post. I've read several of your comments on various threads and I think you are a valuable asset on TAM.... Thank you for contributing your thoughts on the "R" thread.


----------



## illwill

Can i just say how awesome i think this thread is. I sent a co-worker here last week and he's on page 345. He knows i didn't reconcile, but still wanted my advice. I sent him here. He said it's giving him hope. I imagine they're are many like him. He does not want to post, but wanted me to thank you all. So thank you.


----------



## EI

illwill said:


> Can i just say how awesome i think this thread is. I sent a co-worker here last week and he's on page 345. He knows i didn't reconcile, but still wanted my advice. I sent him here. He said it's giving him hope. I imagine they're are many like him. He does not want to post, but wanted me to thank you all. So thank you.


Thank you, illwill.  Have you thought about changing your username? It doesn't seem to fit you. 

I think the one thing that the contributors of this thread desire, is to find hope and then to offer hope to others. Not everyone can or should reconcile their marriage/relationship. But, everyone needs to find reconciliation within themselves. We all need to find inner peace. I hope your friend finds that peace. I'm so thankful for the people on this thread. I don't know where B1 and I would be, at this point, had we not had their wisdom, their support, and their encouragement.


----------



## user_zero

EI said:


> I could have written this, verbatim, by simply replacing *GF* with *B1* and *her* with *him*. And, while I'll admit that my heart truly feels this way, I know that I would never judge anyone else as harshly as I have judged myself. My brain acknowledges that, although, we can never undo our transgressions and the damage that they have caused, we can accept responsibility for our poor choices, truly regret our poor choices, do everything humanly possible to make amends to those whom our choices have harmed, and make better choices every singe day going forward. This is the closest that we'll ever be able to come to earn our redemption. It's the best we can possibly do. If we are fortunate enough to have the love and respect of those whom our poor choices harmed at the end of all of this then we are truly blessed.
> 
> The greatest challenge I've faced thus far is accepting that I am worthy of the love, respect and forgiveness that I have been given by my loved ones. My brain tells me to accept this gift. *My heart (or that little voice inside of my head) says they're better off without me even if they don't know it or won't admit it. This dialogue circles round and round in my brain in endless loops every day. Why I am I sharing this.* Because that's what we do on this thread. We share our journey.


EI, I don't know if you believe in the devil or not. but I can tell you that little voice in your head is the devil himself. don't believe in something which : 1- is based on your view of what your family thinks about you (which btw this YOU is not the now EI , but the EI who cheated) 2- is not going to do any real help to you or your family. the only thing that voice is doing is making you feel hopeless. it's just torturing you. its wasting your time. the time you can spend with your family which I think if you ask them they would love it. if you don't believe me , you can destroy the doubt this little voice is trying to weaken you with by asking your family what they want from you. do they want you to leave or stay? I'm sure even if you ask them and get their answer, you would try to dismiss their answers by saying they don't know what's good for them. this strong doubt which even defies logic is something you have to let go. it's not good for you and your family. 

In my culture there is a saying : don't ever be hopeless (every human deserve to have hope. it's a right they have just because they entered this world as a human). the real only hopeless (in his attempt to make humans suffer in life and death) in this world is the Evil One.


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> I could have written this, verbatim, by simply replacing *GF* with *B1* and *her* with *him*. And, while I'll admit that my heart truly feels this way, I know that I would never judge anyone else as harshly as I have judged myself. My brain acknowledges that, although, we can never undo our transgressions and the damage that they have caused, we can accept responsibility for our poor choices, truly regret our poor choices, do everything humanly possible to make amends to those whom our choices have harmed, and make better choices every singe day going forward. This is the closest that we'll ever be able to come to earn our redemption. It's the best we can possibly do. If we are fortunate enough to have the love and respect of those whom our poor choices harmed at the end of all of this then we are truly blessed.
> 
> The greatest challenge I've faced thus far is accepting that I am worthy of the love, respect and forgiveness that I have been given by my loved ones. My brain tells me to accept this gift. My heart (or that little voice inside of my head) says they're better off without me even if they don't know it or won't admit it. This dialogue circles round and round in my brain in endless loops every day. Why I am I sharing this. Because that's what we do on this thread. We share our journey.


Wow. I could've wrote this. If I had EI's beautiful way with words that is.  This post pretty much sums up my secondary goal, first being to help RTBP recover and restore our marriage. Some times it can be more difficult.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## illwill

user_zero said:


> EI, I don't know if you believe in the devil or not. but I can tell you that little voice in your head is the devil himself. don't believe in something which : 1- is based on your view of what your family thinks about you (which btw this YOU is not the now EI , but the EI who cheated) 2- is not going to do any real help to you or your family. the only thing that voice is doing is making you feel hopeless. it's just torturing you. its wasting your time. the time you can spend with your family which I think if you ask them they would love it. if you don't believe me , you can destroy the doubt this little voice is trying to weaken you with by asking your family what they want from you. do they want you to leave or stay? I'm sure even if you ask them and get their answer, you would try to dismiss their answers by saying they don't know what's good for them. this strong doubt which even defies logic is something you have to let go. it's not good for you and your family.
> 
> In my culture there is a saying : don't ever be hopeless (every human deserve to have hope. it's a right they have just because they entered this world as a human). the real only hopeless (in his attempt to make humans suffer in life and death) in this world is the Evil One.


Could not agree more.:iagree:


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Wow. I could've wrote this. *If I had EI's beautiful way with words that is.*  This post pretty much sums up my secondary goal, first being to help RTBP recover and restore our marriage. Some times it can be more difficult.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're such a kiss ass...


----------



## calvin

Happy Birthday to my lovely wife CSS.
I love you honey and I'm proud to be your husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> You're such a kiss ass...


And you're just an a--! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Happy Birthday to my lovely wife CSS.
> I love you honey and I'm proud to be your husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy birthday CSS! Hope you enjoy your special day with calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Happy BDay CSS.


----------



## Acabado

Happy birthday CSS!!!!


----------



## EI

Happy Birthday, CSS! I hope you and Calvin have a wonderful day!


----------



## hibiscus

Gosh. This thread moves too fast. I am trying to catch up on everyone's post while at work. Naughty me.

I received my surprise early! My partner bought me a very expensive bottle of Krug champagne.To thank me for being me. ))


----------



## hibiscus

Happy bday CSS


----------



## CantSitStill

Thanks everyone 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

hibiscus said:


> Gosh. This thread moves too fast. I am trying to catch up on everyone's post while at work. Naughty me.
> 
> I received my surprise early! My partner bought me a very expensive bottle of Krug champagne.To thank me for being me. ))


Oh fancy! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Thanks everyone
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You'll get your present tonight.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> You'll get your present tonight.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Small gift?


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Small gift?


I'm glad your Bruins lost to the Hawks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Small gift?


I'm the gift that keeps on giving bfree.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CSS actually doesn't want something expensive and she said she wanted a roll
in the hay for her birthday so I guess I'm going to have to tough it out.
I'm going to stop on the way home and get her a box of chocolates and some bath
stuff,can't go wrong there.
I can't blame her for wanting me for her birthday,I am irresistible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

user_zero said:


> soulpotato , a few things :


OH, you want me to write you a book, huh? LOL. 



user_zero said:


> 1- I'm really curious how do you understand right thoughts from wrong ones. I mean really what is your standard?


External regulators are therapy and those close to me. Internally...hm, well, I guess I would have to say that "wrong" thoughts originate from dysfunction/broken systems. Usually things that are extreme, or when I'm feeling bad - I need to be on high alert for wrong thoughts and behaviors. I struggle with the impulses and compulsions the most at those times, my wrong instincts, so I need to be very careful. (This is like trying to be careful on a train with weak brakes on a track with lots of hairpin turns.) I am still learning how to recognize and regulate.



user_zero said:


> 2- you said "acceptable", by whom? by what standards? where did those standards come from.


The going rate. Society at large. Large groups of humans. Stuff I learned from peers growing up and continue learning. I try to pay attention and understand the standards, but I still fail at times.



user_zero said:


> 3- I think you should write a definition of "good person" for yourself. and I suggest when you're trying to do that consider it to be morally right and be achievable. I really like to know your definition.


I've done this several times over the years, most recently earlier this year, but sometimes I don't see myself or my behaviors clearly (defenses/self-protections complicate clarity and perceptiveness, too). My definition conforms to the common one, I think. Be kind. Don't hurt people. Be honest (!!!). Be true to myself (?). But when I'm under too much pressure, my fragile sense of self/identity starts to break and I can lose my grip on being that good person and not even realize it. Some other part of me takes over so that "I" can survive. This other part is not integrated, and is not caring like my usual self. (No, it's not another personality or anything, it's more like I've split my self and banished this part. It can take over for days or months at a time when things get really bad.) I suspect reintegration via therapy can keep this hijack from happening in the future. I thought I had fixed it before, but found out to my dismay (understatement) that I was grossly mistaken. I have trouble holding onto myself, and have to remain focused and try to avoid stress as much as possible, however impossible that seems.



user_zero said:


> 4- have you ever seen whose young girls who have self-image issues? you know the type , right? they use make up A LOT. dress something too revealing (almost dressed). always trying to attract the male attention. if you talk with these girls , you realized their father didn't appreciate them in a positive way. their father didn't tell them : "you're my pretty girl", obviously not enough. so the girls themselves can't say that phrase to themselves. they have to get that from other people. and even then it wouldn't be enough. because in their subconsciousness they have still doubt about so they can say again to themselves. no matter how much they work on their make up, even after hours, they still feel something's missing. now my point is : as long as YOU can't say that "you're a good person and deserve good things in you life (ofcourse with respect to morality and law)" , no matter how many times people here on TAM or in real life or even your GF say that to you , you won't believe it and therefore the effect always gonna be small. you always gonna find some excuse to doubt that.
> 
> I hope I didn't waste your time.


This is easy to say but hard to do - and people say it to be nice and positive, but I find for me it's just invalidating and a little frustrating instead. I know you don't mean it to feel that way, though. It is going to take me years of therapy to build something that I never had as a child. My "core" is broken, has maybe never been whole. I do not know what it is like to be able to self-validate, to feel ok as I am, to have a positive self-image, to like myself. My family taught me lots of things, but those were definitely not on the list. It makes a big difference, especially with children like me who were "vulnerable"/sensitive/more emotionally reactive.

See, a book! Sorry for rambling, all.


----------



## soulpotato

Happy Birthday, CSS! Welcome back, Hibiscus!


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> The greatest challenge I've faced thus far is accepting that I am worthy of the love, respect and forgiveness that I have been given by my loved ones. My brain tells me to accept this gift. My heart (or that little voice inside of my head) says they're better off without me even if they don't know it or won't admit it. This dialogue circles round and round in my brain in endless loops every day. Why am I sharing this? Because that's what we do on this thread. We share our journey.


I didn't feel that I was worthy before I cheated, so it is especially difficult now. I feel without a doubt that everyone is better off without me - I am trouble and generally just a pain in the a$$, even when I'm trying my damnedest not to be. In the case of my relationship...because GF wants me for some reason, and I want her, I will endeavor every day to not be a worthless PITA. I'm being selfish to accept her love and forgiveness, but I am doing my very best to make this worth her while.


----------



## bfree

SP, I just want to say that I have come to view you as one of the most introspective and self aware people I have ever known. I know that you are always struggling with your thoughts and feelings but let me say this. Never let anyone question your heart.


----------



## user_zero

bfree said:


> SP, I just want to say that I have come to view you as one of the most introspective and self aware people I have ever known. I know that you are always struggling with your thoughts and feelings but let me say this. Never let anyone question your heart.


I think SP thinks too much. and it's more harmful than helpful.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> SP, I just want to say that I have come to view you as one of the most introspective and self aware people I have ever known. I know that you are always struggling with your thoughts and feelings but let me say this. Never let anyone question your heart.


 I got to agree,I was'nt sure at first with Sp but I'm believing more every day that she
Is true.
Keep up the good work Sp.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

LOL, Calvin!! I would not blame you for not being sure about me, especially at first. That is not at all an uncommon reaction.


----------



## soulpotato

user_zero said:


> I think SP thinks too much. and it's more harmful than helpful.


SP has heard this a lot over the years - "you think too much". But she is convinced that there would have been even more problems if she were not the sort to think so much. So she must disagree here.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> SP, I just want to say that I have come to view you as one of the most introspective and self aware people I have ever known. I know that you are always struggling with your thoughts and feelings but let me say this. Never let anyone question your heart.



Amen!


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> SP, I just want to say that I have come to view you as one of the most introspective and self aware people I have ever known.


Thank you, bfree. That really makes my night, and is a very high compliment indeed coming from you.  



bfree said:


> I know that you are always struggling with your thoughts and feelings but let me say this. Never let anyone question your heart.


I don't even know what to say.  I am very touched by this. Thank you so much.


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato, FG says you're awesome and after reading your post I believe her. Time for you to start.


----------



## Brokenshadow

Refuse to be played said:


> soulpotato, FG says you're awesome and after reading your post I believe her. Time for you to start.


Hey man, long time since I've left my own thread, but I've kept an eye on you. Glad your lady has come around. I read your first post and subsequent thread. Dealing with plenty of my own issues, but I'm happy that you're happy. Your lady will never know what she put you through, a deep injustice. May you find happiness where ever it is to be found.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Ok,CSS is at a late meeting,I told her I have a surprise tonight.
Crap,I think she thinks its something really big...(shut up bfree )
I got her a card,yes I wrote in it,a letter from me (all good stuff about her )
A box of chocolate,the good stuff,a gift card to Wendys,she goes there sometimes,only
place close to her work and she likes Wendys,did the dishes and just picked
Up Taco Bell...hey,she loves Taco Bell.
So I hope that's enough,I kinda feel bad,I think I my have mislead her a bit.
Oh and don't forget me,I'm a good present for anyone!
We don't go nuts on birthdays for eachother,other peope we do but I'm really happy
with a card and some bedroom time on my birthday..
I hope she likes this.
As far as us? I see a good future,it was nice to FINALLY let the garbage go.
She'll be here soon....ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Aww, it is so cute to see Calvin fret.  I'm sure she will be very happy, Calvin. I'll bet she really does see you as a present! Whenever I see GF, it is better than Christmas morning when I was a kid. I don't often let on (how excited I am - I do tell her I'm glad to see her), but I am really happy to see her. She is the best gift. <3 I bet CSS feels much the same.


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Aww, it is so cute to see Calvin fret.  I'm sure she will be very happy, Calvin. I'll bet she really does see you as a present! Whenever I see GF, it is better than Christmas morning when I was a kid. I don't often let on (how excited I am - I do tell her I'm glad to see her), but I am really happy to see her. She is the best gift. <3 I bet CSS feels much the same.


 You're alright Sp,flattery will get you everywhere.
She just texted,15 minutes away.
Wtf is wrong with me?
I'm.....nervous?
Wth?
Ah,screw it,with CSS it really is the thought that counts.
I better put on one of her nighties and meet her at the door....

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

Brokenshadow said:


> Hey man, long time since I've left my own thread, but I've kept an eye on you. Glad your lady has come around. I read your first post and subsequent thread. Dealing with plenty of my own issues, but I'm happy that you're happy. Your lady will never know what she put you through, a deep injustice. May you find happiness where ever it is to be found.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey thanks. Yeah she got her sh#t together and has been a model citizen. I've been pretty happy considering the situation. Been keeping an eye on your situation as well. Glad your wife changed groups away from the OM and you guys seem to be turning a corner. 

And I know VERY well what you mean about anger. Its what I'm use to. Only negative emotion that I'm comfortable with. I'm working on that. But what helps (especially early on) is staying active. I know someone recommended kickboxing to you, try it if you have the time. Hitting people is SUCH a great release. I imagine every punch, kick, elbow, and knee going to the OM. I think you'd might enjoy it too.


----------



## calvin

I'm going to give CSS exactly two hours to stop touching me like she is or
I call the cops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> You're alright Sp,flattery will get you everywhere.
> She just texted,15 minutes away.
> Wtf is wrong with me?
> I'm.....nervous?
> Wth?
> Ah,screw it,with CSS it really is the thought that counts.
> I better put on one of her nighties and meet her at the door....
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Go Calvin! :smthumbup:

Bow chicka bow wow.


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## bfree

Brokenshadow said:


> Hey man, long time since I've left my own thread, but I've kept an eye on you. Glad your lady has come around. I read your first post and subsequent thread. Dealing with plenty of my own issues, but I'm happy that you're happy. Your lady will never know what she put you through, a deep injustice. May you find happiness where ever it is to be found.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stick around Broken. This is a good thread to let your hair down a little and relax.


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## Forever Grateful

I glad Calvin and CSS had a good time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

Hi all
It's our anniversary today. We made it. 20 years.
It's been a nice day. Going out for a meal with all the family tonight and going to London on Friday (where we met) for the weekend.

I've had a few Shakey moments, like choosing a card with an appropriate verse, and remembering our 18th anniversary when my marriage was in such a bad place, but on the whole, it's been fine. Hubby hasn't gone over the top, a lovely card and a nice bunch of flowers, which is his style, he's been a bit quiet, but that's ok, he held the this morning, told me he loved me and said I deserved a medal for putting up with him! 

I hope you are all keeping well
Much love
DG
Xx


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## Forever Grateful

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all
> It's our anniversary today. We made it. 20 years.
> It's been a nice day. Going out for a meal with all the family tonight and going to London on Friday (where we met) for the weekend.
> 
> I've had a few Shakey moments, like choosing a card with an appropriate verse, and remembering our 18th anniversary when my marriage was in such a bad place, but on the whole, it's been fine. Hubby hasn't gone over the top, a lovely card and a nice bunch of flowers, which is his style, he's been a bit quiet, but that's ok, he held the this morning, told me he loved me and said I deserved a medal for putting up with him!
> 
> I hope you are all keeping well
> Much love
> DG
> Xx


Happy anniversary! 

I love hearing good news on this thread. Sounds like you're having a great day. Congratulations. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## user_zero

soulpotato said:


> OH, you want me to write you a book, huh? LOL.
> 
> External regulators are therapy and those close to me. Internally...hm, well, I guess I would have to say that "wrong" thoughts originate from dysfunction/broken systems. Usually things that are extreme, or when I'm feeling bad - I need to be on high alert for wrong thoughts and behaviors. I struggle with the impulses and compulsions the most at those times, my wrong instincts, so I need to be very careful. (This is like trying to be careful on a train with weak brakes on a track with lots of hairpin turns.) I am still learning how to recognize and regulate.
> 
> The going rate. Society at large. Large groups of humans. Stuff I learned from peers growing up and continue learning. I try to pay attention and understand the standards, but I still fail at times.
> 
> I've done this several times over the years, most recently earlier this year, but sometimes I don't see myself or my behaviors clearly (defenses/self-protections complicate clarity and perceptiveness, too). My definition conforms to the common one, I think. Be kind. Don't hurt people. Be honest (!!!). Be true to myself (?). But when I'm under too much pressure, my fragile sense of self/identity starts to break and I can lose my grip on being that good person and not even realize it. Some other part of me takes over so that "I" can survive. This other part is not integrated, and is not caring like my usual self. (No, it's not another personality or anything, it's more like I've split my self and banished this part. It can take over for days or months at a time when things get really bad.) I suspect reintegration via therapy can keep this hijack from happening in the future. I thought I had fixed it before, but found out to my dismay (understatement) that I was grossly mistaken. I have trouble holding onto myself, and have to remain focused and try to avoid stress as much as possible, however impossible that seems.
> 
> This is easy to say but hard to do - and people say it to be nice and positive, but I find for me it's just invalidating and a little frustrating instead. I know you don't mean it to feel that way, though. It is going to take me years of therapy to build something that I never had as a child. My "core" is broken, has maybe never been whole. I do not know what it is like to be able to self-validate, to feel ok as I am, to have a positive self-image, to like myself. My family taught me lots of things, but those were definitely not on the list. It makes a big difference, especially with children like me who were "vulnerable"/sensitive/more emotionally reactive.
> 
> See, a book! Sorry for rambling, all.


you know , I read and reread this post and there is something that just keep coming into my face. now please understand that this is a wild guess and my intention is to help you , not to put you down or confuse you.
first I want you to think about these questions:
1- do you have to think and plan something before taking action about it?
2- do you spend lots of time to make sure your plan is right?
3- do you spend lots of time on thinking about your plan?
4- do you spend lots of time on thinking about all aspects of a problem?
5- do your plans go wrong a lot?
6- do you fail a lot at jobs/projects/promises you accept?

------------------------------------------
if my wild guess is right , then I would say you show signs of being a perfectionist. you may think that if you were a perfectionist then why you have done much wrong. you'll be amazed to know that perfectionists do wrong a lot and regularly. procrastination always follows a perfectionist and it shows itself in different forms. in your case I believe it shows itself in being a good person. you've created to many barriers to be a good person. your solution (plan) is so complex that it is becoming very hard to execute. depression , low self-esteem , caring about others people opinion to the point wanting to be validated all the time .... all part of being a perfectionist.
you may ask why would someone sabotage their own life like that. well for different reason but in your case I feel the reason is "fear of success". 

PS: please consider that my guess is based on MY VIEW of your posts. it could be wrong. but have an open mind.


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all
> It's our anniversary today. We made it. 20 years.
> It's been a nice day. Going out for a meal with all the family tonight and going to London on Friday (where we met) for the weekend.
> 
> I've had a few Shakey moments, like choosing a card with an appropriate verse, and remembering our 18th anniversary when my marriage was in such a bad place, but on the whole, it's been fine. Hubby hasn't gone over the top, a lovely card and a nice bunch of flowers, which is his style, he's been a bit quiet, but that's ok, he held the this morning, told me he loved me and said I deserved a medal for putting up with him!
> 
> I hope you are all keeping well
> Much love
> DG
> Xx


Happy anniversary dg,good to hear things are going decent.
God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

Happy 20th Anniversary, dg! I'm so happy to hear that things are going well for you, your hubby and your family.


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## soulpotato

user_zero said:


> you know , I read and reread this post and there is something that just keep coming into my face. now please understand that this is a wild guess and my intention is to help you , not to put you down or confuse you.
> first I want you to think about these questions:
> 1- do you have to think and plan something before taking action about it?
> 2- do you spend lots of time to make sure your plan is right?
> 3- do you spend lots of time on thinking about your plan?
> 4- do you spend lots of time on thinking about all aspects of a problem?
> 5- do your plans go wrong a lot?
> 6- do you fail a lot at jobs/projects/promises you accept?
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> if my wild guess is right , then I would say you show signs of being a perfectionist. you may think that if you were a perfectionist then why you have done much wrong. you'll be amazed to know that perfectionists do wrong a lot and regularly. procrastination always follows a perfectionist and it shows itself in different forms. in your case I believe it shows itself in being a good person. you've created to many barriers to be a good person. your solution (plan) is so complex that it is becoming very hard to execute. depression , low self-esteem , caring about others people opinion to the point wanting to be validated all the time .... all part of being a perfectionist.
> you may ask why would someone sabotage their own life like that. well for different reason but in your case I feel the reason is "fear of success".
> 
> PS: please consider that my guess is based on MY VIEW of your posts. it could be wrong. but have an open mind.


UZ, I put a lot of thought into my plans, but I'm not slow about things - I think on my feet. And I am indeed a perfectionist. Not just about being a good person, but about work and other endeavors. I don't really procrastinate. I don't try to self-sabotage, either.

I wouldn't say my plans go wrong all that often so long as there are no emotional complications. I almost never fail to deliver on jobs/projects/promises. I would drive myself into the ground to deliver because it is tied into my self-worth. I don't ever, ever want to disappoint or let people down like others have done to me in the past. I have kept trivial appointments like lunch dates when I was sick to the point of hardly being able to stand just to avoid being unreliable and disappointing.

(I can't possibly express to anyone how terrible I feel about failing and betraying GF, the person who has made the biggest positive difference in my life.)

I am not afraid to succeed. I'm driven to do so, actually. I am much more afraid of failure. You know, it's kind of like the perfectionism at all the other things in my life is a shield. 

My biggest problems don't stem from being a perfectionist, though. They come from having borderline personality disorder. I am fortunate in that it is more on the moderate side instead of being severe. Even so, the issues stemming from that do end up messing up my plans and my life in general. I put lots of energy into trying not to mess up - I don't want to hurt the people I care about, and I don't want people in my everyday life suspecting anything is wrong with me.


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## calvin

I think Sp knows she fvcked up bad but I feel she is taking and tackling the steps
She needs to better herself.
she's trying pretty hard and I feel the remorse is true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Soulpotato, you can't please everyone. It's hard when you are a people pleaser . I know but somehow you have to be you and only do what you can. As long as you are doing your best then you should feel good about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

User-zero; I think it was well put, and even if you missed the mark on SP, I nodded to most of your bullet points. I just now thought that this is part of the problem I have in opening up to my fWW - I wanna be certain that I won't fail, which is a bit har given circumstances.

Thank you for your post - I like it.


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## cpacan

Happy anniversary DG - still nice to see your doing well. You certainly earned it.


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## hibiscus

Happy anniversary DG. I hope I have as many as yours with my current partner.


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## soulpotato

Thank you, Calvin, I appreciate that.

Thanks to everyone who has said such kind and thoughtful things to me here.


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## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato, you can't please everyone. It's hard when you are a people pleaser . I know but somehow you have to be you and only do what you can. As long as you are doing your best then you should feel good about that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't want to please absolutely everyone, thankfully. I've taken some stands with my family and have been training myself to refuse to respond to them on certain things. I'm trying. Hard though. Thank you.


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> I don't want to please absolutely everyone, thankfully. I've taken some stands with my family and have been training myself to refuse to respond to them on certain things. I'm trying. Hard though. Thank you.


I've had to cut off a couple of my sisters,they leech off my parents and spread
Rumors that CSS had other affairs,even with one of my best friends.
They physically hit CSS a couple times.
They are just all around a$$hOles,so I don't talk to them anymore and that's
They way I want it.
They also know if they mess with CSS again I won't pull any punches this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

I haven't been active much this week. I've been preoccupied with finding another job and more importantly a few health concerns for RTBP. He sees he doctor later this afternoon. I WILL be going with him. He never takes his medical health seriously. 

Good news though....I have a job interview on Monday! I've had other interviews but this is a big opportunity. Sky will be limit with this job. I'm excited and a bit nervous. RTBP has been great, being supportive and keeping me sane. I love you RTBP! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Hey all,

Haven't been posting much the last few months, but have been checking periodically and trying to keep up on everyone's progress. Looks like people are doing pretty darn well around here, and that we have had a few very strong additions to our little merry band of reconcilers. 

This Sunday marks my two year anniversary of DD, a date that I always approach with a sense of dread. Have had a few more triggers than normal, but have been dealing with them pretty well. My FWW has been doing a good job of supporting me etc.

Then yesterday she comes home and seems off. I could tell the minute she came in. I asked her what's up, and she nervously hands me her phone. The POSOM contacted her for the first time since DD via email. Talk about a trigger!!

I read the email, it's very short and to the point. Basically it says this, "hello XXXX, hope you are doing well. So about a month ago I found a posting on a website about me that your husband must have put up. Now someone has emailed a link to the story to my wife, and I am guessing it must have been your husband. So what's going? Can you please ask him to take down the posting as it is not just about my wife and I, but also my about my career and livelihood."

So my blood was boiling when I read this! The NERVE of this guy. First off, I made it abundantly clear he was never to contact my wife again. My wife made it abundantly clear he was not to contact her again. I contacted his wife after DD once, almost two years ago, to make sure she knew what was going. She asked me not to contact her again, and I have respected that.

I put him up on cheaterville over a year ago, and he has more than 1.5 million views. It is the fourth link served up when you google his very common name. But he is certain it was ME to send the link to his wife after two years of silence. Or perhaps, one of the 1.5 million views was someone who knew him/wife and sent the link. Ya think maybe?

Furthermore, he is testing my sense of Christianity and mercy. So sorry that the factual information around how you conduct yourself might interfere with your career. You know what that's called, it's called consequences my friend. You made the bed, now you can sleep in it. Karma is a b1tch!

He is REALLY testing my mercy. He has a career because I *choose* to allow it. All I would need to do is send a link to his HR department and he would be out of his current job and virtually unemployable (works as a consultant, my wife was a client at the time of his affair, he used company expense account to get her drunk and sleep with her the first time and then the same company expense account for multiple nights out and dinner etc over the 4 months that followed). 

I'm trying really hard to take the higher road, but he is making it very difficult not to squash his life like a bug on the sidewalk.

At this point, we have decided to ignore the outreach. If my wife hears from him again, I will proceed to call him and state this:

"First off, I will not be taking down the factual post of your behavior. It is the truth, and I have the proof to back it up. It stays. Secondly, I did not contact your wife. The purpose of that site is to allow interested parties to know the truth about who people are. It would appear someone who knows one or both of you, now knows you for what you truly are. This is not my problem, this is a consequence of the decisions you made. 

Finally, we agreed that you were never again to contact my wife, and yet you did. You mention you are worried about the damage this all may have on your career and livelihood, so let me be clear. You have a career because I choose to allow it. One email to your HR department and it would end. I am trying to be merciful, and move on with my life. I suggest you do the same. ANY future contact will result in that posting being pushed out to your social circles as well as your HR department.

In life, one must accept the consequences for one's actions. I suggest you suck it up."

The fact that this a$$hole feels like HE is being wronged in all of this is just beyond comprehension. How my wife could ever have been interested in such a selfish, self-absorbed ********* is beyond me.

Sorry to just drop in and vent, but I needed it! Anyone feel that I am overreacting to this? Should I handle it differently?

Happy DD week to me!


----------



## user_zero

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Haven't been posting much the last few months, but have been checking periodically and trying to keep up on everyone's progress. Looks like people are doing pretty darn well around here, and that we have had a few very strong additions to our little merry band of reconcilers.
> 
> This Sunday marks my two year anniversary of DD, a date that I always approach with a sense of dread. Have had a few more triggers than normal, but have been dealing with them pretty well. My FWW has been doing a good job of supporting me etc.
> 
> Then yesterday she comes home and seems off. I could tell the minute she came in. I asked her what's up, and she nervously hands me her phone. The POSOM contacted her for the first time since DD via email. Talk about a trigger!!
> 
> I read the email, it's very short and to the point. Basically it says this, "hello XXXX, hope you are doing well. So about a month ago I found a posting on a website about me that your husband must have put up. Now someone has emailed a link to the story to my wife, and I am guessing it must have been your husband. So what's going? Can you please ask him to take down the posting as it is not just about my wife and I, but also my about my career and livelihood."
> 
> So my blood was boiling when I read this! The NERVE of this guy. First off, I made it abundantly clear he was never to contact my wife again. My wife made it abundantly clear he was not to contact her again. I contacted his wife after DD once, almost two years ago, to make sure she knew what was going. She asked me not to contact her again, and I have respected that.
> 
> I put him up on cheaterville over a year ago, and he has more than 1.5 million views. It is the fourth link served up when you google his very common name. But he is certain it was ME to send the link to his wife after two years of silence. Or perhaps, one of the 1.5 million views was someone who knew him/wife and sent the link. Ya think maybe?
> 
> Furthermore, he is testing my sense of Christianity and mercy. So sorry that the factual information around how you conduct yourself might interfere with your career. You know what that's called, it's called consequences my friend. You made the bed, now you can sleep in it. Karma is a b1tch!
> 
> He is REALLY testing my mercy. He has a career because I *choose* to allow it. All I would need to do is send a link to his HR department and he would be out of his current job and virtually unemployable (works as a consultant, my wife was a client at the time of his affair, he used company expense account to get her drunk and sleep with her the first time and then the same company expense account for multiple nights out and dinner etc over the 4 months that followed).
> 
> I'm trying really hard to take the higher road, but he is making it very difficult not to squash his life like a bug on the sidewalk.
> 
> At this point, we have decided to ignore the outreach. If my wife hears from him again, I will proceed to call him and state this:
> 
> "First off, I will not be taking down the factual post of your behavior. It is the truth, and I have the proof to back it up. It stays. Secondly, I did not contact your wife. The purpose of that site is to allow interested parties to know the truth about who people are. It would appear someone who knows one or both of you, now knows you for what you truly are. This is not my problem, this is a consequence of the decisions you made.
> 
> Finally, we agreed that you were never again to contact my wife, and yet you did. You mention you are worried about the damage this all may have on your career and livelihood, so let me be clear. You have a career because I choose to allow it. One email to your HR department and it would end. I am trying to be merciful, and move on with my life. I suggest you do the same. ANY future contact will result in that posting being pushed out to your social circles as well as your HR department.
> 
> In life, one must accept the consequences for one's actions. I suggest you suck it up."
> 
> The fact that this a$$hole feels like HE is being wronged in all of this is just beyond comprehension. How my wife could ever have been interested in such a selfish, self-absorbed ********* is beyond me.
> 
> Sorry to just drop in and vent, but I needed it! Anyone feel that I am overreacting to this? Should I handle it differently?
> 
> Happy DD week to me!


I think you did well. if he tries to contact you or your wife , get a RO against him. and if he tries to take you to the court for this , you can defend yourself easily by saying everything you put on that website is true and OM can't deny that.
the very fact that he didn't take action legally and being posted on that website is important for him and he is trying to make you take it down through your wife ... says that : 1- he is a coward. 2- being posted on that website affecting him negatively. 3- he can't do anything about it legally.

so enjoy your life my friend.


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## bfree

If send that email now. Why wait on pins and needles giving him control of your mental state? Calvin can speak to how damaging continued contact is to a reconciliation. What if he waits another 6 months to email her. A year? Are you always going to look over your shoulder?


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## user_zero

bfree said:


> If send that email now. Why wait on pins and needles giving him control of your mental state? *Calvin can speak to how damaging continued contact is to a reconciliation. *What if he waits another 6 months to email her. A year? Are you always going to look over your shoulder?


I agree with the whole post specially the bold part. don't try to respond or engage in communication with OM. you're never going to get the proper response from him. a while back I advised calvin to not respond in his situation which I believe it worked for him.


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## calvin

I'd send the e-mail now,you already warned him.
I warned the pos a few times then went after his job,girlfriend and his friends.
I guess he's still pissed but I don't respond anymore,I think it pisses him off more that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

So it looks like two votes for sending the POSOM an email and one vote against. Anyone else want to vote? I am open to your thinking . . . 

As for being on pins and needles, I'm not. If the thought of him contacting my wife again was having that effect, I would definitely hit send. And will absolutely do so if he contacts either of us again. But I am also in the camp of the less interaction the better, including me emailing him. 

So I am leaning towards letting it stand as is, unless he contacts again. But I also am looking for thoughts I may not have considered from my fellow reconcilers, so feel free to share your logic.

But I am still amazed at how he appears to be living in the fog two years later. He accepts no responsibility for the consequences of his affair. How dare the husband of the woman I was fu(king interfere in my life? Really? 

I was quite proud of my FWW, as she did everything right. Came home and told me right away. Said she did not expect, nor want me to take down the posting. She also said it was my call on how or if to respond. That she would back my decision 100%. Then she told me how sick it made her feel to see his email show up, how guilty she felt for bringing him into our lives etc. That she was nauseous all day because of it. While i am not happy he reached out, I am happy with the progress my wife has made over the last two years.


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## Refuse to be played

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> So it looks like two votes for sending the POSOM an email and one vote against. Anyone else want to vote? I am open to your thinking . . .
> 
> As for being on pins and needles, I'm not. If the thought of him contacting my wife again was having that effect, I would definitely hit send. And will absolutely do so if he contacts either of us again. But I am also in the camp of the less interaction the better, including me emailing him.
> 
> So I am leaning towards letting it stand as is, unless he contacts again. But I also am looking for thoughts I may not have considered from my fellow reconcilers, so feel free to share your logic.
> 
> But I am still amazed at how he appears to be living in the fog two years later. He accepts no responsibility for the consequences of his affair. How dare the husband of the woman I was fu(king interfere in my life? Really?
> 
> I was quite proud of my FWW, as she did everything right. Came home and told me right away. Said she did not expect, nor want me to take down the posting. She also said it was my call on how or if to respond. That she would back my decision 100%. Then she told me how sick it made her feel to see his email show up, how guilty she felt for bringing him into our lives etc. That she was nauseous all day because of it. While i am not happy he reached out, I am happy with the progress my wife has made over the last two years.


I say burn the SOB. The way I see it, the OM brought on whatever you dish on himself. I think of myself as a nice guy but I wouldn't feel a shred of remorse for destroying his career and livelihood. That's what I did to FG's ex-boss, he lost his job, reputation, and girlfriend. Plus I got paid! The only thing I regret is that there wasn't more in his life for me to destroy. I admit its me being vindictive and wanting revenge. I'm okay with that, the high road is overrated. (Wow thinking about him has kinda pissed me off.)

But in your situation it wouldn't be vengeance (not that there is anything wrong with it) it would simply be following through. It's called a No Contact letter, not a No Contact unless X happens letter. You showed mercy once and he spit on it. I wouldn't even bother contacting him, just end him.

Also thank you. I was gonna be lazy today and not go the gym. Now the heavy bag is calling me.


----------



## EI

NH2MR, without going into some lengthy list of reasons (which I probably will, anyway,) I would suggest that you do NOT respond. NC means NC, and by maintaining that, on your end, you and your wife are firmly stating that he is no longer and never will be ANY part of your life, again. You are within your rights to leave the posting on CV up. Obviously, if he had legal recourse, he would have taken it. He does not.

Your wife handled this new contact flawlessly. That should be your main concern. I think every BS likely wonders and even has a certain amount of anxiety regarding the possibility of the xAP breaking NC. Now, you know exactly how your wife would handle it. She couldn't have done a better job. That should help reinforce the trust that she has already been reestablishing with you these last two years. 

I would suggest that if the OM attempts to contact your wife, again, that you have an attorney send him a certified letter stating that any further attempts to contact you or your wife will result in a restraining order against him. THAT should be the last you hear from him. He needs to understand that he doesn't get to have an affair with your wife and then, like a coward, tell your wife to tell you to "quit making his life uncomfortable."

That's my opinion. NC from you and your wife to the xOM should never be broken. Can your wife "block" him from making contact?


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> I haven't been active much this week. I've been preoccupied with finding another job and more importantly a few health concerns for RTBP. He sees he doctor later this afternoon. I WILL be going with him. He never takes his medical health seriously.
> 
> Good news though....I have a job interview on Monday! I've had other interviews but this is a big opportunity. Sky will be limit with this job. I'm excited and a bit nervous. RTBP has been great, being supportive and keeping me sane. I love you RTBP!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's real excited. Mega corporation everybody knows and will open a lot of doors for her career wise. I am NOT comfortable with her taking a job with frequent travel though. We'll see how it goes on Monday.

Oh yeah, my doctor thinks I have Crohn's disease. All I really know about it is that it is hereditary so I guess my family gets to f##K me over one more time.  I got to get a CT scan on Tues to confirm. Anyways I'm fine for now, FG is freaking out about it though. Not going to lie, its kinda funny.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> She's real excited. Mega corporation everybody knows and will open a lot of doors for her career wise. I am NOT comfortable with her taking a job with frequent travel though. We'll see how it goes on Monday.
> 
> Oh yeah, my doctor thinks I have Crohn's disease. All I really know about it is that it is hereditary so I guess my family gets to f##K me over one more time.  I got to get a CT scan on Tues to confirm. Anyways I'm fine for now, FG is freaking out about it though. Not going to lie, its kinda funny.


Not funny, it is serious!!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I hope you don't have it, RTBP.  I can see why FG is worried.

Good luck with the interview, FG!


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> I've had to cut off a couple of my sisters,they leech off my parents and spread
> Rumors that CSS had other affairs,even with one of my best friends.
> They physically hit CSS a couple times.
> They are just all around a$$hOles,so I don't talk to them anymore and that's
> They way I want it.
> They also know if they mess with CSS again I won't pull any punches this time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like CSS' family was out in the open with their awfulness. My mother always insisted that we pretend that our family was perfect and hide anything unpleasant. A little tough when the men she picked preferred to resolve things with overt violence.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Sounds like CSS' family was out in the open with their awfulness. My mother always insisted that we pretend that our family was perfect and hide anything unpleasant. A little tough when the men she picked preferred to resolve things with overt violence.


 Oh CSS's mom wanted everything Brady Bunch style,a big facade bt behind it CSS got abused pretty bad.
Her mom still tries...tries to run her life,I won't let her.
My fam is just something else,couple crack heads, a very mean drunk,boy friends come and go
The oldest sister has been married seven times,she hates my joke I have 5 sisters and 25
Brother in laws.
Mom was a cop and Dad was the Sunday Shool/song leader at church.
Don't know how my sister wound up like they did.
Oh well,I keep the nuts away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Me and FG can relate to the family problems in a relationship. I don't get along with most of my family so I rarely talk to any of them. Some I haven't spoken to since our wedding.

And on her side most of her family is cool. Her dad is ok and her mom is awesome (she was my favorite teacher in HS). Her sisters are cool and her brother is one of my best friends now. In fact I hooked him up with his fiance (Another example of my awesome wing man skills ). Her BIL is kind of a d-bag but is ok I guess and our niece and nephew are annoying but alright. The problem is that some of her extended family are VERY racist so we're not invited to some events and there was a few people who didn't get a invite to our wedding. Key thing is toxic people get ignored, blood or not.


----------



## calvin

Go Bears!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Me and FG can relate to the family problems in a relationship. I don't get along with most of my family so I rarely talk to any of them. Some I haven't spoken to since our wedding.
> 
> And on her side most of her family is cool. Her dad is ok and her mom is awesome (she was my favorite teacher in HS). Her sisters are cool and her brother is one of my best friends now. In fact I hooked him up with his fiance (Another example of my awesome wing man skills ). Her BIL is kind of a d-bag but is ok I guess and our niece and nephew are annoying but alright. The problem is that some of her extended family are VERY racist so we're not invited to some events and there was a few people who didn't get a invite to our wedding. Key thing is toxic people get ignored, blood or not.


 Yep,some are not allowed over for holidays,some are on probation with me.
There's good and bad on both sides of our families.
I keep the ones who are troublemakers away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> I hope you don't have it, RTBP.  I can see why FG is worried.
> 
> Good luck with the interview, FG!


Thanks sp. I'm not all that worried. If I have it I'll just have to take injections twice a month. Side effect is I'll have a lowered immune system but I hardly ever get sick so whatever.

Yeah it could be a great career for her. If she gets it free Big Macs and Mcnuggets for everyone! J/K


----------



## bfree

I'm going to leave TAM for a while. Zanne's thread in the Considering Divorce section has brought out a lot of old hurts and I need to spend some time with my family and pray. I'll be back at some point though.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Thanks sp. I'm not all that worried. If I have it I'll just have to take injections twice a month. Side effect is I'll have a lowered immune system but I hardly ever get sick so whatever.
> 
> Yeah it could be a great career for her. If she gets it free Big Macs and Mcnuggets for everyone! J/K


 Damn,sorry RTBP,I didn't really know what Crohns was,I just looked it up real
quick.
In my prays brother.
Gotta pray for another Bears Fan!
I need a beer,can't believe the Giants marched down field like that.
Ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Funny story. 2 yrs ago at Thanksgiving at FG's parents place, 3 yr old nephew asked me in front of everyone if I was burnt. AWKWARD AS HELL! The entire room got quiet until FG's brother just starts dying laughing. Good times.


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> I'm going to leave TAM for a while. Zanne's thread in the Considering Divorce section has brought out a lot of old hurts and I need to spend some time with my family and pray. I'll be back at some point though.


Hope you're well and that your hiatus will be short. Looking forward to your return bfree!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Damn,sorry RTBP,I didn't really know what Crohns was,I just looked it up real
> quick.
> In my prays brother.
> Gotta pray for another Bears Fan!
> I need a beer,can't believe the Giants marched down field like that.
> Ugh
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks a lot Calvin. It sucks and just another thing to add to 2013 being the worst year of my life. MY Dr said he's like 90% sure I have it but still a chance I don't.

And relax B-Marsh just scored. Go get yourself a beer my man. I love this time of year because of the Sam Adams Octoberfest.

Wow our defense is gutted wit injuries this year.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Funny story. 2 yrs ago at Thanksgiving at FG's parents place, 3 yr old nephew asked me in front of everyone if I was burnt. AWKWARD AS HELL! The entire room got quiet until FG's brother just starts dying laughing. Good times.


Oh god that was so embarrassing! Still an adorable little sweetheart through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> Oh god that was so embarrassing! Still an adorable little sweetheart through.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I am pretty adorable....
Thanks babe!


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Yeah I am pretty adorable....
> Thanks babe!


And humble! I like your style.
21-14 Bears,looking better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> I'm going to leave TAM for a while. Zanne's thread in the Considering Divorce section has brought out a lot of old hurts and I need to spend some time with my family and pray. I'll be back at some point though.



bfree, you've done so much for so many of us, it's time for you to take care of yourself. Be with your family, spend time together, pray, do whatever you need to do. I think everyone needs to take a TAM break every once in a while. It's easy to get caught up in all of the drama on TAM and it can, at times, become damaging to the health and well being of our own families. TAM can be a great resource, but moderation is the key. B1 has done so much better since he left TAM behind. And, that has obviously been a good thing for our marriage. I post much less than I used to and that has been a healthier choice for me, as well. I think for everything there is a season. Right now you need to focus on you and your family. When you decide to come back, TAM will be here. 

Thank you so much for sharing your hard earned wisdom with us, on this thread, and for your steadfast support and encouragement. I'm sure that B1 and I are not the only ones who have benefitted from your presence here. 

Take care,
~EI


----------



## calvin

Bfree taking a break?
I dig it.
Thanks for all your help bfree.
Take care man,see you when we see ya.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> So it looks like two votes for sending the POSOM an email and one vote against. Anyone else want to vote? I am open to your thinking . . .
> 
> As for being on pins and needles, I'm not. If the thought of him contacting my wife again was having that effect, I would definitely hit send. And will absolutely do so if he contacts either of us again. But I am also in the camp of the less interaction the better, including me emailing him.
> 
> So I am leaning towards letting it stand as is, unless he contacts again. But I also am looking for thoughts I may not have considered from my fellow reconcilers, so feel free to share your logic.
> 
> But I am still amazed at how he appears to be living in the fog two years later. He accepts no responsibility for the consequences of his affair. How dare the husband of the woman I was fu(king interfere in my life? Really?
> 
> I was quite proud of my FWW, as she did everything right. Came home and told me right away. Said she did not expect, nor want me to take down the posting. She also said it was my call on how or if to respond. That she would back my decision 100%. Then she told me how sick it made her feel to see his email show up, how guilty she felt for bringing him into our lives etc. That she was nauseous all day because of it. While i am not happy he reached out, I am happy with the progress my wife has made over the last two years.


On D-day OM showed up at our home at night just to prevent me from contacting his wife. He said he was so sorry (that it all came out and ended) and he actually told me to punch his face. I wanted to so much, but I'm really glad I didn't. First off, he's almost a foot taller than me and could've beaten the sh1t out of me, second; he's a police officer and know very well that he could've threatened me with a police record or law suit, so I'm happy that I didn't give him that power.

Once in a while, just for a minute or two, I dream about adding a little missery (or maybe a lot) to his sorry life in legal ways, and maybe by means I do better than he does. But really, when I thin about it, what would be the point? He might escalate it somehow, it may backfire on me in ways I can't control. Again giving him power over me.

So I really make an effort to make him a non-entity in my life. 

I don't know how your NC proces turned out? If you already sent him a NC-letter with instructions and a RO warning - I would just try to get the RO. Otherwise I would sent a note by e-mail, even shorter than the one you drafted with a warning. Other than that, erase him from your life and thoughts - he's not worth the brain space. Follow your head and not your heart in this one.


----------



## soulpotato

Bfree, you'll be missed. Be waiting for your return.


----------



## calvin

cpacan said:


> On D-day OM showed up at our home at night just to prevent me from contacting his wife. He said he was so sorry (that it all came out and ended) and he actually told me to punch his face. I wanted to so much, but I'm really glad I didn't. First off, he's almost a foot taller than me and could've beaten the sh1t out of me, second; he's a police officer and know very well that he could've threatened me with a police record or law suit, so I'm happy that I didn't give him that power.
> 
> Once in a while, just for a minute or two, I dream about adding a little missery (or maybe a lot) to his sorry life in legal ways, and maybe by means I do better than he does. But really, when I thin about it, what would be the point? He might escalate it somehow, it may backfire on me in ways I can't control. Again giving him power over me.
> 
> So I really make an effort to make him a non-entity in my life.
> 
> I don't know how your NC proces turned out? If you already sent him a NC-letter with instructions and a RO warning - I would just try to get the RO. Otherwise I would sent a note by e-mail, even shorter than the one you drafted with a warning. Other than that, erase him from your life and thoughts - he's not worth the brain space. Follow your head and not your heart in this one.


 Wow cpacan,that must have been hard to resist but at least your POS
Actually apologized.
I don't respond or think much about my POS much anymore,you're right about
Giving them power but for all the calls he made and what he said about my
wife and kids he will get his someday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hibiscus

Hey guys! Got my real surprise today!

I am off to Ireland tomorrow!! My partner has treated me to a Saturday night in Belfast. Its going to be a hell of an anniversary celebration.
YEEEHAAH! )))


----------



## cpacan

calvin said:


> Wow cpacan,that must have been hard to resist but at least your POS
> Actually apologized.
> I don't respond or think much about my POS much anymore,you're right about
> Giving them power but for all the calls he made and what he said about my
> wife and kids he will get his someday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I wouldn't exactly call it an apology, not sincere at least. It was only to avoid me telling his wife. He even had the nerve to say "Do you really want two families ruined instead of just one??..." That was when I got really, REALLY mad - told him to leave and never show up near our property again - ever. It doesn't get much more pathetic than that.


----------



## Refuse to be played

cpacan said:


> Well, I wouldn't exactly call it an apology, not sincere at least. It was only to avoid me telling his wife. He even had the nerve to say "Do you really want two families ruined instead of just one??..." That was when I got really, REALLY mad - told him to leave and never show up near our property again - ever. It doesn't get much more pathetic than that.


Really he said that?!?! Oh hell no. I would've called his wife right there on the spot. Who in the hell says that?


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Really he said that?!?! Oh hell no. I would've called his wife right there on the spot. Who in the hell says that?


Yeah,I couldn't hold myself back on that one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> I hope you don't have it, RTBP.  I can see why FG is worried.
> 
> Good luck with the interview, FG!


Thank SP! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

NH2MR, I vote against. Don't give him the satisfaction. I think it's important to maintain NC for both the BS and the WS. It does no good for your WS to be unresponsive if you're going to talk to the guy. I think the best thing is to be as a unified wall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Refuse to be played said:


> Really he said that?!?! Oh hell no. I would've called his wife right there on the spot. Who in the hell says that?


I was still very much in shock at the time and wasn't thinking clearly. I told him to go home and tell his wife because I was going to call her in the morning.

He called my wife the next day to make sure that I actually would follow through on the threat, my wife ensured him that I was absolutely furious and that I would definitely call her. So he told his wife, and made sure to paint my wife as the pursuier.

It's a sad story really, though I probably would have laughed him off, had he not taken something precious from me.


----------



## CantSitStill

Things are going real well with us . Also, I love my new job. It's perfect for me and the people I work with are super nice . Calvin and I just don't get many evening hours together because I don't get home till around 7pm every night. At least I have weekends and holidays off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Ugh,into the pits shoveling I go.......crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Ugggg...twenty year olds these days act like they are 17.. I was married when I was twenty. Having a bad morning...lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hello?? Is there anybody out there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> Hello?? Is there anybody out there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey CSS! I'm here home alone for the first time since Dday. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hey forever..it's been so quiet, maybe I should go ti bed. How are you ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

I'll take the quiet as a good sign until told otherwise, couples out enjoying life together. 

I'm ok, a little bored and anxious for RTBP to come back home. I couldn't fall asleep even if I wanted to right now. I can't fall asleep at night without out RTBP now.

You said you had a bad morning, hope the rest of the day went smoothly for you and Calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Well I woke woke up on the wrong side of the bd this morning or something. I was pretty crabby. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Howdy folks. a brief update on the happenings at the rookie ranch. We are now GRANDPARENTS!!!!!!!!!. We have a new Grandson and he is perfect in every way. Momma and baby are doing fine, Daddy is in a coma.


----------



## biola

Rookie4 said:


> Howdy folks. a brief update on the happenings at the rookie ranch. We are now GRANDPARENTS!!!!!!!!!. We have a new Grandson and he is perfect in every way. Momma and baby are doing fine, Daddy is in a coma.


That's good news.Congrats!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Howdy folks. a brief update on the happenings at the rookie ranch. We are now GRANDPARENTS!!!!!!!!!. We have a new Grandson and he is perfect in every way. Momma and baby are doing fine, Daddy is in a coma.


Congrats! Grand kids are wonderful. If I had known just how much we were going to love our grandson, we would have totally skipped having kids and gone straight to grandchildren! Let the spoiling begin!


----------



## Forever Grateful

Rookie4 said:


> Howdy folks. a brief update on the happenings at the rookie ranch. We are now GRANDPARENTS!!!!!!!!!. We have a new Grandson and he is perfect in every way. Momma and baby are doing fine, Daddy is in a coma.


Congratulations Rookie!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

EI said:


> Congrats! Grand kids are wonderful. If I had known just how much we were going to love our grandson, we would have totally skipped having kids and gone straight to grandchildren! Let the spoiling begin!


Yeah I'll be 'one of those' grandparents.

Friends of ours have a mom / MIL that says "you're taking advantage of me" when they ask her to babysit. WTF? "Taking advantage?" Bring them on over... I'll spoil them for as long as you'll let me.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Howdy folks. a brief update on the happenings at the rookie ranch. We are now GRANDPARENTS!!!!!!!!!. We have a new Grandson and he is perfect in every way. Momma and baby are doing fine, Daddy is in a coma.


Excellent Rookie!!!
A Grandboy!....oh hell yeah!
The kids has some excellent Grandparents also.
Happy for you man!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

larry.gray said:


> Yeah I'll be 'one of those' grandparents.
> 
> Friends of ours have a mom / MIL that says "you're taking advantage of me" when they ask her to babysit. WTF? "Taking advantage?" Bring them on over... I'll spoil them for as long as you'll let me.



How could anyone pass up an opportunity to spend time with this little guy?  If I go more than two days without seeing him, I go into withdrawal! Raising children is a lot of hard work, money, sleepless nights, tears, worrying, etc. It's good stuff, too, but sometimes it seems like you have to wait a lifetime to see the fruits of your labor. Our daughter and son-in-law are such an amazing young couple. I could not be more proud of them. They do the hard work and B1 and I do the spoiling! 

BTW, all of the photos with the baby, only, minus the one in the "Live Animal" box, were taken by none other than my very talented husband, B1. 

[


----------



## tdwal

Adorable!

Isnt it amazing how close grandparents get with their grandchildren. Were their haven of refuge. I wouldn't trade mine for anything.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Interview in a couple of hours. Wish me luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Interview in a couple of hours. Wish me luck!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Good luck FG,things seem to be getting better for you both.
You'll nail it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Good luck FG,things seem to be getting better for you both.
> You'll nail it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Calvin! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

The interview went really well and I have another one scheduled for Thursday. Pretty awesome job and I like my chances. Doesn't pay as well as my old one but I wouldn't have to travel as far and as often. Only 8 to 10 trips a year and they'll all be close by Midwest cities. Ooh, RTBP can even come with me on a few of them! 

Don't want to get too excited though and jinx myself. Plus RTBP still has to get the CT scan tomorrow to confirm whether or not he has Crohn's disease. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh forever grateful, hope you get it. I knkw how exciting it is, even if it is less pay. My new job is less pay but I love it there . Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> The interview went really well and I have another one scheduled for Thursday. Pretty awesome job and I like my chances. Doesn't pay as well as my old one but I wouldn't have to travel as far and as often. Only 8 to 10 trips a year and they'll all be close by Midwest cities. Ooh, RTBP can even come with me on a few of them!
> 
> Don't want to get too excited though and jinx myself. Plus RTBP still has to get the CT scan tomorrow to confirm whether or not he has Crohn's disease.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 You both have the wind at your backs.
Its time for things to get better for both of you and I have a feeling it will.
Hold on to eachother and don't lose sight.
I feel a success story in the making here.
Good stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Thank you so much CSS and Calvin! I hope I get it and RTBP is very supportive of the job. It's a bit less pay but I honestly HATED my old job for a long while so it's ok. 

Things have been really good between us for awhile now. I still see a few rough spots in the future but I really believe/hope that we can make it through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> How could anyone pass up an opportunity to spend time with this little guy?  If I go more than two days without seeing him, I go into withdrawal! Raising children is a lot of hard work, money, sleepless nights, tears, worrying, etc. It's good stuff, too, but sometimes it seems like you have to wait a lifetime to see the fruits of your labor. Our daughter and son-in-law are such an amazing young couple. I could not be more proud of them. They do the hard work and B1 and I do the spoiling!
> 
> BTW, all of the photos with the baby, only, minus the one in the "Live Animal" box, were taken by none other than my very talented husband, B1.
> 
> [


Fine looking young man.


----------



## ConanHub

Beautiful!! Another reminder of why anyone should work there butt off to have the best marriage they can. 
We deserve the best from ourselves and our partners and viceversa, but the children really deserve our best!!

Who can't fall in love with that little guy?

Great picture! Thanks for sharing!:smthumbup:


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI your grandson is adorable!  I love his hair!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

What happend with the interview FG?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> What happend with the interview FG?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's tomorrow morning. I feel it went well on Monday but I still a bit nervous.

Thanks for asking by the way! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> That's tomorrow morning. I feel it went well on Monday but I still a bit nervous.
> 
> Thanks for asking by the way!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My bad,fingers crossed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Argh, my therapist let me go tonight.  She thinks I am good to live life on my own without her guidance now. I have serious doubts. WTH. At least I got the names of a couple of MCs who may be on GF's insurance.

GF showed up to surprise me and was waiting when I got out.  We went to dinner, had great conversation which continued in the car for an hour (we were holding hands and gazing into each other's eyes despite sometimes touching on tough subjects, like my EAs), and were just generally close. She leaned her head against me, and I thought, "God, I'm lucky."


----------



## Forever Grateful

Well, the good news is I think I nailed the second interview. I think I'll get the job.

Bad news is we got the results from RTBP's CT scan and it confirmed Crohn's. He's taking it annoyingly well though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I don't know whether to  or :-(


----------



## user_zero

Forever Grateful said:


> Well, the good news is I think I nailed the second interview. I think I'll get the job.
> 
> Bad news is we got the results from RTBP's CT scan and it confirmed Crohn's. He's taking it annoyingly well though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I liked the first part of your post (that may came out a little wrong)

and about bad news : I think USUALLY it's better to know what the problem is than not knowing it. nevertheless , I pray for you two.


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> I don't know whether to  or :-(


Tell me a bout it. Got the call from his doctor this morning. That killed whatever excitement I was to receive from the interview. I'm also a bit irritated how nonchalant he is about his diagnosis.He wants to go out to celebrate my interview success. It's like everyone is taking his health more seriously than he is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

user_zero said:


> I liked the first part of your post (that may came out a little wrong)
> 
> and about bad news : I think USUALLY it's better to know what the problem is than not knowing it. nevertheless , I pray for you two.


No worries, I understood what you meant.

It's good we know what the problem is so we can now get it treated. When his doctor first mentioned it I googled everything I could on Crohn's. I know he is going to start taking injections to treat it but a side effect is that it will lower his immune system. Going to try and speak with his doctor tomorrow.

Thank you for the prayers. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Prayers FG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Argh, my therapist let me go tonight.  She thinks I am good to live life on my own without her guidance now. I have serious doubts. WTH. At least I got the names of a couple of MCs who may be on GF's insurance.
> 
> GF showed up to surprise me and was waiting when I got out.  We went to dinner, had great conversation which continued in the car for an hour (we were holding hands and gazing into each other's eyes despite sometimes touching on tough subjects, like my EAs), and were just generally close. She leaned her head against me, and I thought, "God, I'm lucky."


That sucks about your therapist SP. I hope she is right though. The MC sounds like a good route for you and GF. I'm glad you had a great night out with her. I know what you mean about feeling lucky sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Forever Grateful said:


> Tell me a bout it. Got the call from his doctor this morning. That killed whatever excitement I was to receive from the interview. I'm also a bit irritated how nonchalant he is about his diagnosis.He wants to go out to celebrate my interview success. It's like everyone is taking his health more seriously than he is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG, first, congratulations on nailing your interview. I really hope this works out for you. Second, give RTBP a chance to "digest" this news in his own way and in his own time. Crohn's disease is a big deal, but it can often be managed, very well, with some lifestyle adjustments. To be honest, I have a feeling that after the year that the two of you have had, that RTBP is looking at his diagnosis very differently than he might have 6 months ago. B1 and I have faced so many challenges in this lifetime that it is almost mind boggling. In fact, we continue to face several issues in our life that have nothing to do with the "A," but they complicate our lives none-the-less. Ironically, though, NOTHING, has changed our lives more than the "A." 

Without going into great detail, I have been dealing with some health issues, myself, this year and B1 and I are still facing some significant financial hurdles/decisions. There was a time when I/we might have crumbled under this pressure. Not anymore. Fighting for our marriage, one another, and ourselves, (if that makes any sense) has put so much of what goes on in our lives into perspective. 

At the end of the day, if I get to lay down beside B1, with his arms wrapped around me, and the two of us professing our love to one another, then I can take whatever else "life" wants to throw at me during the day. It's possible that through all of these challenges, that RTBP has learned to 'accept the things he cannot change, has gained the courage to change what he can and has acquired the wisdom to know the difference.' 

My cousin has Crohn's disease. She was diagnosed, during emergency surgery, almost 25 years ago, just months before her wedding. She later gave birth to three healthy children, has traveled the world, and has had an amazing life thus far. She follows her doctor's orders to the letter and, I'm sure, makes everything look much easier than it truly is. But, again, she's managing very well. You and RTBP will be on a learning curve, for a while. But, the two of you are amazing couple and I believe that you will handle this with the same strength, grace, and resolve that you are handling other challenges in your life.


----------



## russell28

Therapists will let you go, tell you you're fixed? I never knew that.. that must be a good therapist, I thought they keep going until your bank account runs out.


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> FG, first, congratulations on nailing your interview. I really hope this works out for you. Second, give RTBP a chance to "digest" this news in his own way and in his own time. Crohn's disease is a big deal, but it can often be managed, very well, with some lifestyle adjustments. To be honest, I have a feeling that after the year that the two of you have had, that RTBP is looking at his diagnosis very differently than he might have 6 months ago. B1 and I have faced so many challenges in this lifetime that it is almost mind boggling. In fact, we continue to face several issues in our life that have nothing to do with the "A," but they complicate our lives none-the-less. Ironically, though, NOTHING, has changed our lives more than the "A."
> 
> Without going into great detail, I have been dealing with some health issues, myself, this year and B1 and I are still facing some significant financial hurdles/decisions. There was a time when I/we might have crumbled under this pressure. Not anymore. Fighting for our marriage, one another, and ourselves, (if that makes any sense) has put so much of what goes on in our lives into perspective.
> 
> At the end of the day, if I get to lay down beside B1, with his arms wrapped around me, and the two of us professing our love to one another, then I can take whatever else "life" wants to throw at me during the day. It's possible that through all of these challenges, that RTBP has learned to 'accept the things he cannot change, has gained the courage to change what he can and has acquired the wisdom to know the difference.'
> 
> My cousin has Crohn's disease. She was diagnosed, during emergency surgery, almost 25 years ago, just months before her wedding. She later gave birth to three healthy children, has traveled the world, and has had an amazing life thus far. She follows her doctor's orders to the letter and, I'm sure, makes everything look much easier than it truly is. But, again, she's managing very well. You and RTBP will be on a learning curve, for a while. But, the two of you are amazing couple and I believe that you will handle this with the same strength, grace, and resolve that you are handling other challenges in your life.


Thank you EI. I am letting him digest the news and he has been expecting this since last Wednesday. I know he would've reacted differently if this was a year or two ago. He wouldn't have been depressed about it but he would've gotten proactive about learning about the disease and it's treatment. Now he just seems to not care. He's barely read anything on it and I've printed out a bunch of things for him to read.

I know with us being a relatively young couple we haven't yet faced most of the challenges/problems other married couples go through. The A made the very few problems we did have seem even more insignificant and it also brought a lot of personal issues that both of us have repressed to the surface. I'm fighting too because I know once we are able work through this we can be so happy together. Happier than we were before. It does put somethings in perspective. My stupidity almost cost me him. Now all I want to do is hold on as long as possible, which means I need him alive and kicking for another 50 or 60 years. Can't have him getting sick. 

And I live for those moments in bed when we cuddle. When he holds me at night it just all seems worth it. It gives me confidence and motivates me more to push on through this. RTBP has said something similar about things you have no control over, although it did sound a lot more cynical coming from him. Its reassuring to hear about your cousin. He'll follow the doctor's orders and stay on top of his treatments, I'll make him. Thank you again for your kind words EI!

Oh and I hope whatever health issues you are currently going through aren't serious. I'll pray for you regardless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> That sucks about your therapist SP. I hope she is right though. The MC sounds like a good route for you and GF. I'm glad you had a great night out with her. I know what you mean about feeling lucky sometimes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG, I'm sorry to hear that RTBP's test came back positive.  I was really hoping it wouldn't. He had better not give you a hard time about taking care of himself and listening to the doctor!

Ugh, I know. I'm not really happy about the therapist thing at all, I think it's too early.  I was up half the night over it. The last thing I want to do is get derailed or screw up things with GF because I'm not ready to be on my own yet. Definitely going to pursue the MC.

We did have a great night. We were kissing like teenagers in the car before I left, lol.  I love her so much. I never get tired of looking into her beautiful eyes. And her smile is back. That brilliant, clear smile that was one of the things that hooked me in the first place. It's great. There are so many precious little things to cherish.


----------



## soulpotato

russell28 said:


> Therapists will let you go, tell you you're fixed? I never knew that.. that must be a good therapist, I thought they keep going until your bank account runs out.


YES, they will!  I've read that this is pretty common with BPD. The therapist re-parents the BPDer and then eventually says "goodbye", pushing him/her out of the nest, so to speak. Like a parent, they have to encourage independence at a certain point. But I also think that she's so busy that she may have pushed me out too early to work on people who needed care more urgently. She didn't say so, but it's just a feeling I get. I mean, she is the only expert on BPD here, so it's actually quite difficult to get in to see her if you're not a regular.


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> Without going into great detail, I have been dealing with some health issues, myself, this year and B1 and I are still facing some significant financial hurdles/decisions. There was a time when I/we might have crumbled under this pressure. Not anymore. Fighting for our marriage, one another, and ourselves, (if that makes any sense) has put so much of what goes on in our lives into perspective.


EI...I'm concerned about you. I hope that you're really okay.  I know you're tough, but still. You both deserve the best. Misfortune needs to leave you and B1 alone. I'm glad that you have each other to get through these things.



EI said:


> At the end of the day, if I get to lay down beside B1, with his arms wrapped around me, and the two of us professing our love to one another, then I can take whatever else "life" wants to throw at me during the day.


I really feel you on this. That's exactly how I feel about GF. I think it's one reason I have been coping relatively well with all the stress in my life right now and everything going wrong - it's because she's there. And nothing that goes wrong seems to wear me down too badly so long as _we're_ right.


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> FG, I'm sorry to hear that RTBP's test came back positive.  I was really hoping it wouldn't. He had better not give you a hard time about taking care of himself and listening to the doctor!
> 
> Ugh, I know. I'm not really happy about the therapist thing at all, I think it's too early.  I was up half the night over it. The last thing I want to do is get derailed or screw up things with GF because I'm not ready to be on my own yet. Definitely going to pursue the MC.
> 
> We did have a great night. We were kissing like teenagers in the car before I left, lol.  I love her so much. I never get tired of looking into her beautiful eyes. And her smile is back. That brilliant, clear smile that was one of the things that hooked me in the first place. It's great. There are so many precious little things to cherish.


Thanks SP! I hope he gets his s--- together and stop playing around with this. Like I said the injections will weaken his immune system and he needs to vocalize anything that's wrong with him. He always tries to be typical tough guy and fight through it when he's sick. That can't happen anymore. But what really scares me is the fact that he is a latent tuberculosis carrier and that the injections could activate it. 

Stop doubting yourself! Trust your therapist. You are one of the most open and introspective posters in this thread, I think you'll be fine. I'm rooting for you regardless. I can't help but feel like a hypocrite right now but stop being so negative and worrying about screwing up. It's good you will pursue MC. Trust me it can be a lot of help. Is GF on board for it?

Aww your night together sounds so sweet. You can practically feel the love for her in your words. You never truly appreciate all the little things about the one you love the most until you almost lose them it seems. I feel the same way about RTBP. What hooked me was his smile and his confidence. And yes I LOVE making out like teenagers! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> EI...I'm concerned about you. I hope that you're really okay.  I know you're tough, but still. You both deserve the best. Misfortune needs to leave you and B1 alone. I'm glad that you have each other to get through these things.
> 
> 
> I really feel you on this. That's exactly how I feel about GF. I think it's one reason I have been coping relatively well with all the stress in my life right now and everything going wrong - it's because she's there. And nothing that goes wrong seems to wear me down too badly so long as _we're_ right.


I agree. I really hope you are ok EI. You two definately deserve a breather.

This is exactly how I feel about RTBP and I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I agree. I really hope you are ok EI. You two definately deserve a breather.
> 
> This is exactly how I feel about RTBP and I.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Yep,EI needs to stop trying to save the world in one day.Don't feel bad for askng
for help from the your family,I think you stretch yourself a lot.
Prayers said for you and B1 every night and others before I crash.

FG,good deal on the interview,you have confidence but also seem humble.
Make hubby keep up with his doctor appointments and all that stuff,you know how
us men can be.
Support his Chicago Bears! Wear a cheerleader outfit for him!

Sp your a sweet person,I feel the same way when I look at CSS.
Is it possible for you to see another counselor at also whle you're seeing yours?
I don't know if that would be counter productive or not,since its hard to see your counselor.
CSSis home!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Thanks SP! I hope he gets his s--- together and stop playing around with this. Like I said the injections will weaken his immune system and he needs to vocalize anything that's wrong with him. He always tries to be typical tough guy and fight through it when he's sick. That can't happen anymore. But what really scares me is the fact that he is a latent tuberculosis carrier and that the injections could activate it.


Of course. I'll be thinking about both of you and hoping that nothing happens with that. You're strong, FG. If I were in your situation, I'd probably be a total mess. (RTBP is hella strong, too. Goes without saying!) *RTBP, don't give FG too much of a hard time!*



Forever Grateful said:


> Stop doubting yourself! Trust your therapist. You are one of the most open and introspective posters in this thread, I think you'll be fine. I'm rooting for you regardless. I can't help but feel like a hypocrite right now but stop being so negative and worrying about screwing up. It's good you will pursue MC. Trust me it can be a lot of help. Is GF on board for it?


Hard not to doubt myself after I've realized the magnitude, if you know what I mean. Thank you, though.  We were kind of using my therapist for MC periodically, but she really just wanted to work with me. GF is totally on-board for MC. When I told her about being released, she was like, "WHAAAT? But we still need help with working through some of this stuff!" She was downright relieved when I told her I'd gotten the names of a couple of good MCs from my therapist before she booted me out the door, lol.



Forever Grateful said:


> Aww your night together sounds so sweet. You can practically feel the love for her in your words. You never truly appreciate all the little things about the one you love the most until you almost lose them it seems. I feel the same way about RTBP. What hooked me was his smile and his confidence. And yes I LOVE making out like teenagers!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I have been overflowing with love for her. I am going to over-sugar you guys. I really try to hold back from sharing! You are so right - I won't lose sight of her and my feelings for her again. LOL, you two are so mushy.  It's adorable.


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> Yep,EI needs to stop trying to save the world in one day.


She is our very own Super Woman!



calvin said:


> FG,good deal on the interview,you have confidence but also seem humble.


FG is going to nail this, I know it! :smthumbup:



calvin said:


> Sp your a sweet person,I feel the same way when I look at CSS.
> Is it possible for you to see another counselor at also whle you're seeing yours?
> I don't know if that would be counter productive or not,since its hard to see your counselor.


Thank you, Calvin.  

Actually, we were trying to get to that point (of having multiple therapists, one for MC, one for me, and one for GF), but it hadn't happened yet. We had agreed that GF was going to find and line her IC up as well as maybe the MC (since we've been using my insurance for all of our joint sessions this year and there's also the matter of them needing to be closer to her location-wise), but...she has been really exhausted lately and just struggling with some of her own stuff. So now that mine is gone, that really puts a priority on us pursuing the dedicated MC. I'm going to do what I can to keep working on my BPD-related issues on my own and see how I do.


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## user_zero

EI, I agree with others about you need to have a breather. I just wanted to add something else too. actually two things.I hope it helps.

1- recently , I saw a video on youtube about "studying the effect of stress on health (both mental & physical". basically , it says that : those who believe stress is a good thing , respond better in stressful situations and they have less issues health wise. if you believe stress is a negative thing and you have lots of stress , then your are in big trouble. how we view stress and stressful situations can makes us have more/less problems health wise.


2- In my religion, people believe that the real purpose of this life is not just to live happy (problem-free) until death but to grow as a human being. to that end , our Creator gives us opportunities to achieve this purpose. some of these opportunities represent themselves in the roles (parent , spouse , business man , poster in TAM , G-Parent , ... ) we have to play in our lives. sometimes they represent themselves as problems , as misfortunes that we have to solve , to endure. in fact I heard a specific phrase quite often : "God gives more misfortunes (opportunities) to those he loves the most". 
of course , that doesn't mean that we have to sit and be drowned in our problems. that means we have to understand that as soon as we solve current problems , more problems are going to come. such is the way of world. such is the love of our Creator. 
I know to some people it might seem weird. but it actually helps.

I hope I didn't waste your time 

PS: am I becoming a preacher or what


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> FG,good deal on the interview,you have confidence but also seem humble.
> Make hubby keep up with his doctor appointments and all that stuff,you know how
> us men can be.
> Support his Chicago Bears! Wear a cheerleader outfit for him!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Calvin. Oh I'm definitely going to make sure he stays up on his medical issues. I'm not done with him for at least another 50 years or so. 

I don't have any Bears gear but I do have a Bulls jersey and a few other things. Basketball is his favorite sport. If Bears do good this year I might get jersey.

As for dressing as a cheerleader, prefers the naughty librarian look. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Of course. I'll be thinking about both of you and hoping that nothing happens with that. You're strong, FG. If I were in your situation, I'd probably be a total mess. (RTBP is hella strong, too. Goes without saying!) *RTBP, don't give FG too much of a hard time!*


Oh I'm a partial mess right now. RTBP is keeping me sane.



> Hard not to doubt myself after I've realized the magnitude, if you know what I mean. Thank you, though.  We were kind of using my therapist for MC periodically, but she really just wanted to work with me. GF is totally on-board for MC. When I told her about being released, she was like, "WHAAAT? But we still need help with working through some of this stuff!" She was downright relieved when I told her I'd gotten the names of a couple of good MCs from my therapist before she booted me out the door, lol.


Yeah I definitely know what you mean. It's good she is on board. I hope you two find a good MC.



> I have been overflowing with love for her. I am going to over-sugar you guys. I really try to hold back from sharing! You are so right - I won't lose sight of her and my feelings for her again. LOL, you two are so mushy.  It's adorable.


I understand and I feel the same way! We're not that mushy! Ok yes we are. I can't help it! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Forever Grateful said:


> Oh and I hope whatever health issues you are currently going through aren't serious. I'll pray for you regardless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





soulpotato said:


> EI...I'm concerned about you. I hope that you're really okay.  I know you're tough, but still. You both deserve the best. Misfortune needs to leave you and B1 alone. I'm glad that you have each other to get through these things.





Forever Grateful said:


> I agree. I really hope you are ok EI. You two definately deserve a breather.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





calvin said:


> Yep, EI needs to stop trying to save the world in one day. Don't feel bad for asking for help from your family, I think you stretch yourself a lot. Prayers said for you and B1 every night and others before I crash.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





user_zero said:


> EI, I agree with others about you need to have a breather. I just wanted to add something else too. actually two things.I hope it helps.
> 
> 1- recently , I saw a video on youtube about "studying the effect of stress on health (both mental & physical". basically , it says that : those who believe stress is a good thing , respond better in stressful situations and they have less issues health wise. if you believe stress is a negative thing and you have lots of stress , then your are in big trouble. how we view stress and stressful situations can makes us have more/less problems health wise.
> 
> 
> 2- In my religion, people believe that the real purpose of this life is not just to live happy (problem-free) until death but to grow as a human being. to that end , our Creator gives us opportunities to achieve this purpose. some of these opportunities represent themselves in the roles (parent , spouse , business man , poster in TAM , G-Parent , ... ) we have to play in our lives. sometimes they represent themselves as problems , as misfortunes that we have to solve , to endure. in fact I heard a specific phrase quite often : "God gives more misfortunes (opportunities) to those he loves the most".
> of course , that doesn't mean that we have to sit and be drowned in our problems. that means we have to understand that as soon as we solve current problems , more problems are going to come. such is the way of world. such is the love of our Creator.
> I know to some people it might seem weird. but it actually helps.
> 
> I hope I didn't waste your time
> 
> PS: am I becoming a preacher or what



Guys,

Thank you so much for ALL OF THAT. I appreciate it very much. To take the mystery out of it, I've been having some "female problems" that began earlier this year. During my "not so annual" physical with my gynecologist a tumor was discovered. That led to an ultrasound and that led to a gastroenterologist and that led to an endocrinologist and that led me back to my GP. Things seemed to settle for a couple of months and then, again, without going into great detail, I got very sick and began having more serious problems. I had a biopsy this morning and we should have the results early next week.

And, thank you, user_zero, that's definitely an interesting way of looking at things. God must really love me.... LOL  I tell B1, almost daily, that every time I cross one thing off of my "To Do List" that I open the mail or answer the phone and I get three more to replace the one that I completed. 

And, of course, you're not wasting my time. I appreciate your input. But, I am curious about you. What brought you to TAM? Would you like to tell us about yourself?


----------



## user_zero

EI said:


> What brought you to TAM? Would you like to tell us about yourself?


I will answer your question. I promise you that. but first, I want to know your (and everyone else's) opinion. what do you think brought me here? I mean based on what you see in my posts.

I'll explain the reason for this weird question later.


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## bfree

EI, I know it doesn't need to be said but I'll say it anyway. You and B1 are always in our prayers.


----------



## Forever Grateful

RTBP has gotten a bit more involved in dealing with his health issues after getting chewed out by my mom. Thats right I snitched on him lol. He listens to her, that loving respect with a dash of fear that EI mentioned before.

We had a wonderful day. I really do love all the dating we've been doing. Not just the same old dinner and movie but going out to new places, switching things up. We went to a skating rink, we haven't skated together in so long! I feel guilty saying this but its funny watching him flail about trying to stay upright and keep up with me. He hates skating but does it sometimes because he knows I love it. We're going to stay in for the rest of the night and half watch a couple of movies. Great day!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> RTBP has gotten a bit more involved in dealing with his health issues after getting chewed out by my mom. Thats right I snitched on him lol. He listens to her, that loving respect with a dash of fear that EI mentioned before.
> 
> We had a wonderful day. I really do love all the dating we've been doing. Not just the same old dinner and movie but going out to new places, switching things up. We went to a skating rink, we haven't skated together in so long! I feel guilty saying this but its funny watching him flail about trying to stay upright and keep up with me. He hates skating but does it sometimes because he knows I love it. We're going to stay in for the rest of the night and half watch a couple of movies. Great day!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Sounds good FG,that makes me smile.
Make him keep up with his health or n Bears games.
Go Bears!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

My Hawks are lookng good tonight though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Sounds good FG,that makes me smile.
> Make him keep up with his health or n Bears games.
> Go Bears!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He'll keep up with it. He's tired of all the nagging already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

I know one thing, we will NEVER stop dating each other. Whether its work or the eventual kids keeping us busy we'll always make time to have fun on our own. Its been a huge help with our R. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I know one thing, we will NEVER stop dating each other. Whether its work or the eventual kids keeping us busy we'll always make time to have fun on our own. Its been a huge help with our R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It took me 20 months,it still messes with my head a little bit but not much anymore.
One day at a time,a good man called jh52 here pounded that into my head.
CSS has been pretty incredible.We both have learned a lot.
We're inseparable now.
You both will make it.
I get a lot of positive vibes from couple n this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingSamurai

((sighted: the fabled unicorn.....))

greetings, all. just wanted to give a shout out on TAM which i have heard so much about from SoulTater ;D 

we've been in phase 2 of our LT rship for about 4 months now. this being after a fairly lengthy separation. things are going better now than ever, though lots of work goes into fixing what we didn't have right before. it is worth it.  there are good days and bad days, but on the whole i think when we are done working though some of this stuff, our rship will be stronger than it ever was. i have to thank therapy, TAM, self reflection, and a helluva lot of research reads 
(books on psychology and rships and EAs and whatnot)

the biggest thing i learned...... i suppose, is that cheating can happen for many reasons. cheating isn't always just "cheating". for some people it is - just an urge that wasn't suppressed, and a disrespect to the person they are with, or a lack of respect or love. but i came to see that there is a lot of grey area sometimes. cheating is where i previously had drawn the line. but then i found that there is physical cheating, emotional cheating, and at times, both together. then i also learned that sometimes it happens because problems in an rship aren't being dealt with or that the ppl don't have the skills, and that cheating can be unwitting or a coping mechanism. 

this was really hard to wrap my head around for a while but the more time i spent with the idea, the more i could really see it and accept that it was a reality. 

i knew for myself even, that when things got bad in my rship, i would be more focused on someone who seemed to understand, who showed caring, and who i could be myself around. i just happened to have a really strong line, an internal boundary that i knew i would never cross. SP didn't have a lot of definition in this area. for many reasons. and it doesn't make things that happened "okay"... but i can understand it, and choose to forgive it, and to move on. 

my life is better with SP in it. the first time it happened, i chose to put my upset aside for the sake of the future i wanted with SP. unfortunately, there were a lot of things accumulated over the years that had damaged our rship's functionality and my decision to stay didn't magically fix all that. hell, we didn't even really *know* about all of the issues and damage that existed or what caused it. so Armageddon happened. and again, several times, in different 
formations. and they all sucked and were really difficult to handle. (no, they weren't all new EAs or anything.). 

the separation of living space after almost a year of being "over" with the rship was the hardest on SP. (the year of being "over" was roughest on me. SP wasn't really realizing it as the end of things. i was grieving the loss on my own for as far as i knew at the time. though it was no cakewalk for her either. lots of tension and stress.) i suffered in other ways after i moved out, intermittent depression, listlessness, inability to function very well. i mourned the rship we had had in the past, and the seeming futility of chasing 
after that potential for years before i had finally given up that it had been rendered dead long ago. when i finally gave up, it had been because i had nothing left, no hope, and nothing left to give. 

but once i left, we entered a rollercoaster. a clusterFck, if you will. SP pursued me, i withdrew, we fought, i cried, therapy was started, SP cried sometimes too, we fought, were estranged, and basically the whole thing was hell on wheels for a while. but therapy was giving us tools to change our communication, enhance it, and we learned how to not trigger each other, how to avoid fights, etc. we took steps forward even though sometimes we took several steps back. there was progress, there were regressions. trust was built, then it was shaken. (tldr; not an easy process) 

the real epiphany came after a situation that was going to end in NO CONTACT. somehow, the light broke through the clouds, the defensiveness was put down and finally, FINALLY, things truly changed and the possibility of a real future shone down like the sun. it was amazing that the absolute rock bottom which felt like the total implosion of /everything/, managed to give life to HOPE. that was the day we started over for real. and THAT is our new anniversary date. 

we aren't doing the same rship over again and repeating mistakes, repeating something that didn't work - we are literally forging something new. we are both changing ourselves to be better, more functional people, and a more functional couple as a result.

...........so i just wanted to say, THIS IS POSSIBLE. 

but it takes a lot of love, forgiveness, and a lot of effort. on both people's parts. in some ways it becomes irrelevant who had EAs and who was the betrayed. people are human, and sometimes the messups are huge. the important thing is learning from mistakes and learning to forgive.


----------



## CantSitStill

Dancing, that was a very good post, you explained it all so well what people go thru. The hell of it all and yet you two were able to pull thru. Glad to see a success story that shows the bad stuff too. Some people sugarcoat the process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Excellent post Dancing.
I'm seeing more and more couples making it.
It is a long painful process but the reward is great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CSS is going to make Venna dogs in a blanket after the game,I love those.
Got to be Venna though,I love football Sundays!
Unless we lose then everyone pays the price!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Got GF to post at last! Yay.  She probably won't be a regular, but...


----------



## CantSitStill

I'm glad she did post soulpotato . It was a good post that makes all of us reconcilers think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Oh God Sp I missed that was gf....crap,probably cause I read it first thing when I
woke up this morning.
I feel like a heal.
Good job Sp and welcome DS!
I have heard many good things about you.
This is cool Sp!
Ok,Bears lost so I better hurry up and hang myself in the garage before I help CSS with supper.
Walking Dead on tonight so its all pretty good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Welcome to the "R" thread, _Dancing_. I can honestly say that thinking of you as "Dancing," rather than "GF" will be quite an adjustment!  It's nice to see that you've decided to join us, even if just to introduce yourself. I believe that when couples post, together, it truly provides so many opportunities for growth and encouragement that you might not have had, otherwise. 

I hope you do choose to stick around. SP has become such a beloved member of TAM, and the "R" thread, in particular, I can only imagine that your presence would add even more value...... for the two of you as a couple and for the benefit of those who have already been following your story. Posting, together, played a huge part in my reconciliation with B1.

Again, welcome. 

~EI


----------



## soulpotato

Thanks for the warm welcome extended to GF, guys.  

LOL, Calvin, it's okay. I told her the other day that you specifically were asking when she was going to come onto TAM and post and that was when she said she would! I always tell her when one of you says she should come on and say hi.  Fitting that you and CSS were among the first to greet her!

EI, so sweet, thank you for the kind words.  I've really enjoyed being on the R thread, and that is mostly thanks to the wonderful people here. It wouldn't have been possible without you and B1.

GF thinks very deeply and has a good heart. I think it she would have a lot to contribute on TAM if she became a regular. We can hope!


----------



## Forever Grateful

Welcome DancingSamurai! Awesome name by the way.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome extended to GF, guys.
> 
> LOL, Calvin, it's okay. I told her the other day that you specifically were asking when she was going to come onto TAM and post and that was when she said she would! I always tell her when one of you says she should come on and say hi.  Fitting that you and CSS were among the first to greet her!
> 
> EI, so sweet, thank you for the kind words.  I've really enjoyed being on the R thread, and that is mostly thanks to the wonderful people here. It wouldn't have been possible without you and B1.
> 
> GF thinks very deeply and has a good heart. I think it she would have a lot to contribute on TAM if she became a regular. We can hope!


 Give GF a little time.
Its kinda like getting into a pool that you think might be too cold.
You put your toe in,test the water a lillte then put both legs in.
Before you know it you're dog paddling with help.
After a little while you're swimming on your own but also with a lot of others
Who have their eye on you always.....lot of lifeguards on this thread.
No one has drowned here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Oh sorry about the game Calvin...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Dancing, welcome to TAM and to the Reconciliation thread. I hope you'll stick around to learn, to teach, and to just commiserate with some really great people. The more you come on TAM the more you'll realize that while it's true that we are all just voices in cyberspace on occasion certain things are extremely obvious. And it is quite clear that SP loves you with every fiber off her being and respects you tremendously. Therefore I am quite sure that you are one terrific person to inspire that depth of feeling. Take your time, get your feet wet, and when you're ready soak it all in and prepare yourself for some truly inspiring camaraderie.


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Oh sorry about the game Calvin...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I think your hubs is right,you're bad luck with the Bears.
Kidding FG,it happens.
Its not easy to be a Bears fan.
We'll get em next time.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Dancing, welcome to TAM and to the Reconciliation thread. I hope you'll stick around to learn, to teach, and to just commiserate with some really great people. The more you come on TAM the more you'll realize that while it's true that we are all just voices in cyberspace on occasion certain things are extremely obvious. And it is quite clear that SP loves you with every fiber off her being and respects you tremendously. Therefore I am quite sure that you are one terrific person to inspire that depth of feeling. Take your time, get your feet wet, and when you're ready soak it all in and prepare yourself for some truly inspiring camaraderie.



Wow, bfree, that made my welcome sound crappy.  "So, all those in favor of making bfree head of the "R" thread welcoming committee say aye."  LOL


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> I think your hubs is right,you're bad luck with the Bears.
> Kidding FG,it happens.
> Its not easy to be a Bears fan.
> We'll get em next time.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It's a good thing I don't care about those Bears!  Calvin, you're from Kentucky..... How is it that you are NOT a Wildcat? You're supposed to bleed blue if you're from 'round these parts!


----------



## Rookie4

Welcome to TAM's reconciliation thread, Dancing. You will find a lot of good people here who can help , even if it's just by listening to you.


----------



## Rookie4

I would also like to say to my R thread friends that Sweetie and I have decided to separate. It is what it is.


----------



## larry.gray

Wow rookie, sorry to hear that.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> I would also like to say to my R thread friends that Sweetie and I have decided to separate. It is what it is.


Rookie, I'm so, so sorry. I'm truly shocked and heartbroken. Check your pm's.


----------



## soulpotato

Rookie, thank you for welcoming DS. I'm so sorry to hear about you and Sweetie.


----------



## soulpotato

Bfree, thank you for your warm words.  If DS doesn't end up spending a lot of time here, it won't be because she didn't get a great welcome! 

LOL, EI! Your welcome was wonderful, too! And you're not getting out of being head of the R thread welcoming committee!


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> It's a good thing I don't care about those Bears!  Calvin, you're from Kentucky..... How is it that you are NOT a Wildcat? You're supposed to bleed blue if you're from 'round these parts!


I HATE basketball EI,never did cotton to it.
Rookie I'm very sorry to hear that,it seemed you both were doing so well.
I'm sorry man.
I say we have Bandit welcome all the newcomers to the R thread.
........nevermind,he'll scare them off,I second bfree to be the welcome wagon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Rookie4 said:


> I would also like to say to my R thread friends that Sweetie and I have decided to separate. It is what it is.


Sorry 'bout that Rookie, share when you feel like it.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Hey everyone my hiatus is over! Now I get to play catch up on everyone else.

And three guesses who got a job offer to day...


----------



## calvin

Well CSS got called into work early so it looks like I got some dishes,bed to make and a
couple other things to do today and I have to get up at 2:30 am...ugh.
I'm not gonna wear her high heels today,maybe just her f me boots.
I think she's getting suspicious.
A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

RTBP, good to see you!! 

I bet FG is over the moon!


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Hey everyone my hiatus is over! Now I get to play catch up on everyone else.
> 
> And three guesses who got a job offer to day...


Bears suck ass
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

FG get a place on defense?
We could use her.
Welcome back man.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> RTBP, good to see you!!
> 
> 
> I bet FG is over the moon!


Ha! You could say that. Let me paint a picture for you, a grown near 30 yr old woman doing victory laps around the house followed closely by two rottweilers pups trotting after her.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Ha! You could say that. Let me paint a picture for you, a grown near 30 yr old woman doing victory laps around the house followed closely by two rottweilers pups trotting after her.


 Excellent RTBP!
CSS was pretty excited when she got her job six weeks ago.
Congratulations FG!
That's good news!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> Ha! You could say that. Let me paint a picture for you, a grown near 30 yr old woman doing victory laps around the house followed closely by two rottweilers pups trotting after her.


You know, I can visualize that!


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Ha! You could say that. Let me paint a picture for you, a grown near 30 yr old woman doing victory laps around the house followed closely by two rottweilers pups trotting after her.


And I'll do it again too! Whoo hooo! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Hi , folks, I am not really ready to go into detail just yet. I would however point out to everybody that Sweetie and my reconciliation is a bona fide success story. We went from married, to adultery , to lovers, and now finally to best friends. She wishes it was more, but is happy that our family has and will survive and prosper. When adultery destroys so many families, I don't see that we have anything to be too sad about, it could have been much worse.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Hi , folks, I am not really ready to go into detail just yet. I would however point out to everybody that Sweetie and my reconciliation is a bona fide success story. We went from married, to adultery , to lovers, and now finally to best friends. She wishes it was more, but is happy that our family has and will survive and prosper. When adultery destroys so many families, I don't see that we have anything to be too sad about, it could have been much worse.


So bittersweet, Rookie. I'm crying and I don't know if they're happy tears or sad tears. I just wish you, Sweetie and the whole Rookie family all the happiness in the world.


----------



## Acabado

I'm sorry Rookie.
Wish you - to Sweetie too - the best.


----------



## jupiter13

I'm sorry to hear this Rookie I had hopes for you. Good Luck.


----------



## jupiter13

Found it Internet keeps crashing. I downloaded this sent to WH and 1st time he reads anything I sent right away. Funnier than that he wants all this high praise for doing something he should have been doing all along.

I though this was very good to explain everything to W's 

http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/HOW_TO_HELP_11-06-10_FINAL_pdf-.pdf


----------



## jupiter13

Warning woke up angry, mad and in tears. Now to get everyone around here to leave me alone.


----------



## soulpotato

Jupiter, thank you for sharing that link.

I'm sorry you're feeling so terrible today.  Did WH trigger you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

SP thanks for asking. I have no idea why I woke up like that. He wasn't anywhere around and I can't remember even dreaming. I am thinking that with all the stress going on in our life right now that I am reacting to it. I am bi-polar and not taking any medications. I have refused all medications trying to cope with everything 4 years now. The last thing I want is to have to return to pill popping just to stay in the here and now. I'm sorry if anyone takes offense but I would rather run a muck than live in the world those pills had placed me. It was like living in Roger Rabbit's world. I like this one better. As long as I eat right, work out daily and have a stress free environment (like that's what I got) I have been able to handle it. I can actually say that all the men in my life have just pushed me too far. WH, God, now sons in trouble. Definitely a doormat and fixer of all problems and needs. When did I become this push over for everyone else? Not happy camper. 

I'm still around and trying to catch up with everyone's posts but court appearances and meetings have me swamped.


----------



## soulpotato

I'm glad he didn't directly trigger you, but I'm sorry you are under so much unrelenting stress.  It's really tough when you can't catch a break.

Wow, Jupiter, I hear you. Having bipolar and trying to manage without meds is more than enough pressure, but of course life and other people don't oblige with the "no stress" part! You've got a lot on your plate. I understand what you mean about the meds and preferring to go without them. I feel the same way (I was put on anti-depressants to deal with my comorbid depression, but it made things worse, so I went off of them). I'd rather be fully present for life, too.


----------



## Rookie4

Thank you all , for your kind words. Both Sweetie and I are doing as well as can be expected. With the new Grandbaby, it has become a secondary issue, for now. 
I haven't been on TAM much for a few months and this breakup is one of the reasons. Sweetie is saddened about it , but understands my POV. We have both grown as a result of the reconciliation, and I have no doubt that we will maintain a positive new relationship in the future.


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> Thank you all , for your kind words. Both Sweetie and I are doing as well as can be expected. With the new Grandbaby, it has become a secondary issue, for now.
> I haven't been on TAM much for a few months and this breakup is one of the reasons. Sweetie is saddened about it , but understands my POV. We have both grown as a result of the reconciliation, and I have no doubt that we will maintain a positive new relationship in the future.


I am saddened for both of you. 

But I do understand. ANd I will keep both of you in my prayers.

My prayers are that your positive new relationship remains respectful, friendly and even loving with each other.

I think both of you deserve that.

HM


----------



## Forever Grateful

I start my orientation next week! And this is our last free Friday together.

I'm going to miss all the free time we had. Also I won't be able to visit RTBP during the day any more. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## user_zero

Forever Grateful said:


> I start my orientation next week! And this is our last free Friday together.
> 
> I'm going to miss all the free time we had. Also I won't be able to visit RTBP during the day any more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good Luck on the job.

and missing loved ones is good. it reminds us : our time with them is limited. so use that time the best you can. :smthumbup:


----------



## CantSitStill

Forevergrateful...I totally know how you feel. I've been at my new job almost 2 months and I love it yet miss my free time and time with Calvin. He gets home at 4 and I get home at 7 or after Mon thru Friday. So yes I bet you are excited, maybe a bit nervous and wondering how you guys will adjust to your new job. It is good tho. Hope your job goes well and hope you like it. I feel so much better now that I'm working again. Yet wish I had more family time, but hey I have weekends and holidays off. Also the people I work with are great. Oh and of course bringing home a paycheck makes it worth it . Let us know how it goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> Forevergrateful...I totally know how you feel. I've been at my new job almost 2 months and I love it yet miss my free time and time with Calvin. He gets home at 4 and I get home at 7 or after Mon thru Friday. So yes I bet you are excited, maybe a bit nervous and wondering how you guys will adjust to your new job. It is good tho. Hope your job goes well and hope you like it. I feel so much better now that I'm working again. Yet wish I had more family time, but hey I have weekends and holidays off. Also the people I work with are great. Oh and of course bringing home a paycheck makes it worth it . Let us know how it goes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It looks really promising and I met a few of my new colleagues already and they seem nice. Monday through Friday I won't get home until 6 so it's not that bad and I'll still have my weekends. Not looking forward to traveling without RTBP, he'll be able to go with me for a few trips though. I am excited, not really nervous about the job though, I know I can do it well, I'm worried about RTBP and how he'll handle me being gone again. And it will be good to have some steady income of our own coming in again. Can't keep cannibalizing our savings, our settlement money, and mooching off my parents. I know RTBP hated accepting any money they offered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Today was FG's first day. It's boring waiting for her to get home. She's on her way though.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Today was FG's first day. It's boring waiting for her to get home. She's on her way though.


 I know the feeling,I want CSS home pretty bad,I miss her.
I hope FG had a good first day!
I'm sure she did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> I know the feeling,I want CSS home pretty bad,I miss her.
> I hope FG had a good first day!
> I'm sure she did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I might just start extending my gym time to compensate.

Yeah she said it was great but she's tired. First thing she did was kick off her heels and hopped in the tub. Would join her but I was fixing dinner.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> I might just start extending my gym time to compensate.
> 
> Yeah she said it was great but she's tired. First thing she did was kick off her heels and hopped in the tub. Would join her but I was fixing dinner.


Yep,if CSS goes in early I pick up the house and make supper,unless we have left overs.
I don't think its fair for her to come home and have to do stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Yep,if CSS goes in early I pick up the house and make supper,unless we have left overs.
> I don't think its fair for her to come home and have to do stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Before all this I usually handled most of the cooking and cleaning. She was out of town a lot and quite frankly I'm better than her at it. To be fair she has gotten better though.

Oh god she's on the phone with her mom and sisters now. It'll be awhile before she hops on TAM tonight. If at all.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Sorry for not coming on yesterday. 

My first two days were great! Didn't do much its mostly me getting acclimated. My new boss pretty cool, I like her. Since I can't be with RTBP during the day I figured I'd call him and spend my lunch with him on speaker phone. 

So good day even if we had our first mini argument since Dday. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Sorry for not coming on yesterday.
> 
> My first two days were great! Didn't do much its mostly me getting acclimated. My new boss pretty cool, I like her. Since I can't be with RTBP during the day I figured I'd call him and spend my lunch with him on speaker phone.
> 
> So good day even if we had our first mini argument since Dday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Excellent news on the job FG!
Sorry about the mini argument but like you said its mini.
Me and CSS rarely argue any more but when we do its much more constructive
and actually pretty calm,there is that happy medium we are able to find.
We compromise.
And we love eachother.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Thanks Calvin! 

RTBP wanted us to go to a big Halloween party, we had planned on it awhile ago. Now obviously its my first week so I'm not going to miss work or go in exhausted so I can't go. He understands that but he wants to go on his own then and I'm not exactly comfortable with that. I know months back my insecurities were discussed here and I have been working on that, but I feel this is a reasonable concern. We can always go out on Saturday. Am I wrong here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I would feel weird about that, too, FG. As is, DS has friends I've never met, and friends who have no clue that she's even with me or anything about me. 

If I were in your shoes in this situation, though, I'd probably end up saying okay, albeit in a slightly grumbly way, haha.


----------



## calvin

Can you both go then cut out a little early?
I understand his frustration.
Or maybe drive seperately and you go home so you get some rest and he stays a little later?
Just a thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Can you both go then cut out a little early?
> I understand his frustration.
> Or maybe drive seperately and you go home so you get some rest and he stays a little later?
> Just a thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to be at work at 9 and the commute to work is about 45 mins so I get up at 7. Its one of those 10 pm - ? parties. I'm not a night owl like RTBP and I can't operate on 4 hours of sleep like him.

He wasn't going to drive because he plans on drinking. He says he won't go now but I can tell he is a bit irritated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I cannot stay up late at all on a work night. I need my 8 hours of sleep. Back when we were in our 20s it never bothered me to party all night and get just a few hours sleep before work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> I cannot stay up late at all on a work night. I need my 8 hours of sleep. Back when we were in our 20s it never bothered me to party all night and get just a few hours sleep before work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If this was my old job it wouldn't even be an issue, I would just go with RTBP have fun and either take the next day off or just half a-- through it. I just started this week and I got to make a good impression. I want to be sharp and on my game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> I have to be at work at 9 and the commute to work is about 45 mins so I get up at 7. Its one of those 10 pm - ? parties. I'm not a night owl like RTBP and I can't operate on 4 hours of sleep like him.
> 
> He wasn't going to drive because he plans on drinking. He says he won't go now but I can tell he is a bit irritated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure there are ways you can make RTBP's Halloween at home "special" and take his mind completely off that party.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I'm sure there are ways you can make RTBP's Halloween at home "special" and take his mind completely off that party.


There ya go!
Damn bfree,you get up pretty early too a lot of the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Wow grandparents!! Congratulations.
E! handsome grandson. I have 3 grand daughters and 4 grand sons wouldn't trade any away. The oldest is turning 14 and he is really coming into his won as a kick boxer and traveling all over for these fights. We are going this next month to see our 2 year grandson in Oregon and see the parents get married. As happy as I should be for them I am not. I fear they will end up a-stranged as their goals differ so even now. 
I am also worried about what triggers this is for me and being there without any place to hide out or run to. 
Good news WH sent my emailed list of questions back and answered a lot of them. it's 5 am I have answered it and asked more while crying my eyes out. Maybe this will help but I just can't see that it will be much better anytime soon. I have lost respect for hi as well as trust. From my history once I loss respect for someone they generally don't get it back. So we will see how he handles it now. Just thought I would update been on a mini break myself as Tam does keep you sort in hyper state. best to you all I'm just really busy fruit and walnuts are in now to get ready for the holidays I see as being very depressing this year too.


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> I'm sure there are ways you can make RTBP's Halloween at home "special" and take his mind completely off that party.


I wouldn't be opposed to this....


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> I'm sure there are ways you can make RTBP's Halloween at home "special" and take his mind completely off that party.


That's an interesting idea. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> That's an interesting idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I can think of a few costumes.
I'm sure you can too FG!
Trick or treat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> There ya go!
> Damn bfree,you get up pretty early too a lot of the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, usually up at 4am. But as hard as I work I play just as hard.....and as often.


----------



## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> That's an interesting idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


RTBP,

Are you feeling alright? Should FG take your temperature?


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> I can think of a few costumes.
> I'm sure you can too FG!
> Trick or treat
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her Halloween costume will do. We bought a replica Ms. Marvel costume, blonde wig and everything. It is NOT gonna go to waste.


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> Yeah, usually up at 4am. But as hard as I work I play just as hard.....and as often.


I like your style bfree! Respect...


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Her Halloween costume will do. We bought a replica Ms. Marvel costume, blonde wig and everything. It is NOT gonna go to waste.


 Oh hell yeah,dig it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Her Halloween costume will do. We bought a replica Ms. Marvel costume, blonde wig and everything. It is NOT gonna go to waste.


No problem. I love the costume, the heels are a bit uncomfortable through. RTBP has to wear his costume then!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> No problem. I love the costume, the heels are a bit uncomfortable through. RTBP has to wear his costume then!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll wear mine. And you won't be wearing the heels that long.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> I'll wear mine. And you won't be wearing the heels that long.


 There ya go!
Ummm,what are your costumes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> There ya go!
> Ummm,what are your costumes?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We were doing Marvel costumes this year. So she's Ms Marvel and I'm Luke Cage.

Basically my costume is just a tight yellow shirt, jeans, and biker gloves.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> We were doing Marvel costumes this year. So she's Ms Marvel and I'm Luke Cage.
> 
> Basically my costume is just a tight yellow shirt, jeans, and biker gloves.


Funny. That's the same outfit I wore when I went trolling for tail back in my single days.


----------



## calvin

Yeah,I was Aquaman,didn't work out to good with the flippers and fins.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

There's something I see over and over here on TAM, and that's, "Cheaters are bad people." No redeeming qualities and no way of seeking redemption - just automatically bad. I could believe that about myself a lot of the time, but no way could I believe that about people like CSS, EI, or FG. So if "cheaters = bad people" is NOT true, why do so many people on TAM keep saying it? Heck, why even talk about reconciliation at that rate? It boggles the mind.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> There's something I see over and over here on TAM, and that's, "Cheaters are bad people." No redeeming qualities and no way of seeking redemption - just automatically bad. I could believe that about myself a lot of the time, but no way could I believe that about people like CSS, EI, or FG. So if "cheaters = bad people" is NOT true, why do so many people on TAM keep saying it? Heck, why even talk about reconciliation at that rate? It boggles the mind.


 For me what they did there is no excuse,the pain caused is horrible.
Does that make them bad people? No,they did a bad thing yes but do they learn
from it and do their best to make amends and fix it?
If they do then they are good people who fvcked up.
There is proof of that here.So no they are not evil,if they keep it up then yeah.
Some deserve a shot and a chance,you do Sp and so do the people you mentioned.
To not give someone a chance would be foolish I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I agree. They're really good people who did something very bad.

Thanks, Calvin. You're one of a very few people who think that way.


----------



## calvin

Where would me and CSS be if we did'nt try?
Don't know but I don't think it would be good.
Made the right choice. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> There's something I see over and over here on TAM, and that's, "Cheaters are bad people." No redeeming qualities and no way of seeking redemption - just automatically bad. I could believe that about myself a lot of the time, but no way could I believe that about people like CSS, EI, or FG. So if "cheaters = bad people" is NOT true, why do so many people on TAM keep saying it? Heck, why even talk about reconciliation at that rate? It boggles the mind.


Don't take it to heart sp. A lot of people are still pissed off. Not all people who cheat are bad people. And I don't think any FWS who post on this thread are bad people.


----------



## Forever Grateful

SP at the end of the day the only opinion that should really matter to you on the subject is DS's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

DS's opinion is what keeps me fighting.


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> DS's opinion is what keeps me fighting.


Same here SP. Take what's helpful and block out the rest. I rarely leave this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

She's the reason I've undertaken this whole human salvage mission. I know people will say it's wrong, but she is really my reason. Even my therapist said, "If I'd thought you were here because of (DS), I wouldn't have accepted you." But I didn't say anything, because DS was precisely the reason I was there. Nothing else would have gotten me to look at those parts of me. Nothing else would make this worth it. I'm not talking just about R, I'm talking about rebuilding myself from the ground up, confronting all the bad things and the things I hate. Without her, I'd be happy to just destroy myself. It's far easier and more appealing than recreating, than being healthy, than unlearning all the sickness I learned and replacing it with all the healthy things I should have been taught. (It seems right that I should be destroyed, and wrong that I should exist and think I could be good - it feels outrageous and arrogant that I would think I could make myself worthwhile.) 

I fight every day, but people still bother me and assault my senses on many levels. I usually don't say anything about it, certainly not here. There are days I can't come here because I'm fighting to balance and modulate. Sensitivity and emotionality are both curses. 

Trying to be present and "real" and tied to reality is very painful for me. I'm not good at this. I'm not good at anything really connected with other people. I try, but it repels them, or maybe I'm doing it wrong. It's like trying to do something with your hands that requires very fine motor skills when all the nerves are dead and you can't feel anything, can't gauge. I don't know how to have friends, and I'm only just figuring out how to have a real relationship (again, thanks to DS - she has been the only thing to move me enough to change me, to make me want to change, whatever it took).

Sorry. TAM is my only support when I'm not actively talking to DS, and she doesn't need the weight anyway.


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> There's something I see over and over here on TAM, and that's, "Cheaters are bad people." No redeeming qualities and no way of seeking redemption - just automatically bad. I could believe that about myself a lot of the time, but no way could I believe that about people like CSS, EI, or FG. So if "cheaters = bad people" is NOT true, why do so many people on TAM keep saying it? Heck, why even talk about reconciliation at that rate? It boggles the mind.


I try to avoid those kinds of comments like the plague, SP. They really used to bring me down. I truly don't need the condemnation of strangers to make me feel bad about myself. There are no ugly, vile, degrading, demoralizing or cruel words that anyone can say about me that I haven't already thought about myself. Cheating is a horrible, horrible thing to do to your partner or your spouse. That being said, I will be damned if I will continue to allow imperfect human beings to psychologically beat me into submission. I made terrible choices. I hurt the people whom I love the most in this world. I violated my own principles and values. The damage is literally incalculable. 

So, if someone can find it within themselves to provide me with direction, insight and wisdom, along with some encouragement, to help me so that I can, in turn, help my husband and my children heal and attempt to move beyond this, then I will eagerly listen to what they have to say. Even if their words are difficult and painful to hear. The truth can hurt, but if the truth that hurts you is meant to help and ultimately heal you, then it is worth the pain. But, if someone only desires to condemn me and tell me that I have no value and am beyond redemption and that I am not capable of being a good person, a good wife and a good mother, then I'm not interested in anything else that they have to say and I tend to skip their posts, altogether. 

But, I think that is actually a very short list around TAM. I count about 6 of them. The truth be known, those people are also imperfect human beings. I know that you aren't a Christian, SP, but I think you can appreciate the verse in Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

One more thing, I think you are one of the kindest, most sensitive, most considerate and most generous posters on TAM. FWIW, from one "bad person" to another, I see an awful lot of good in you. 

~EI


----------



## pidge70

SP, don't let strangers on a internet forum get you down. 

The only people who's opinions of me truly matter are people who actually know me and give a rat's a$$ about me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> SP, don't let strangers on a internet forum get you down.
> 
> The only people who's opinions of me truly matter are people who actually know me and give a rat's a$$ about me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fancy seeing you here!


----------



## Refuse to be played

Me and FG decided to go out. Just for an hour or two. Enjoy the party for a while, have a couple of drinks, dance with each other a bit and then we'll head back home.


----------



## bfree

SP, the mere fact that those comments and opinions bother you goes a long way toward showing who you really are. Even God doesn't expect us to be perfect. He expects us to sin. But it's how we react to the sinning that defines us. Do we continue to sin or do we atone? Answering that question defines us.


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> But, I think that is actually a very short list around TAM. I count about 6 of them. The truth be known, those people are also imperfect human beings. I know that you aren't a Christian, SP, but I think you can appreciate the verse in Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."


Seems like way more than that sometimes. That's true, but they didn't cheat and we did, and that's all that matters to them. I have always liked that verse.



EI said:


> One more thing, I think you are one of the kindest, most sensitive, most considerate and most generous posters on TAM. FWIW, from one "bad person" to another, I see an awful lot of good in you.


You always say such nice things to and about people. I too want to help people here and connect with them.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> SP, the mere fact that those comments and opinions bother you goes a long way toward showing who you really are. Even God doesn't expect us to be perfect. He expects us to sin. But it's how we react to the sinning that defines us. Do we continue to sin or do we atone? Answering that question defines us.


Bfree, thank you. I have always wanted to be a good person. It is very important to me. I have tried many times in life to do the good and right things, but I have also failed many times. The worst is failing people I care about, and moreso, DS. I could go on, but I'll leave it there and just say that I'm trying.


----------



## soulpotato

pidge70 said:


> SP, don't let strangers on a internet forum get you down.
> 
> The only people who's opinions of me truly matter are people who actually know me and give a rat's a$$ about me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pidge, always glad to see you. Thank you for your encouragement. I seem to be stuck on caring about what people think and say (ughh!!), even strangers on the internet, because they're still people to me. (My therapist said I shouldn't talk overmuch to people on the internet because those bonds aren't real, but I'd like to think it's not impossible that I might one day make a real friend or two here.)


----------



## pidge70

soulpotato said:


> Pidge, always glad to see you. Thank you for your encouragement. I seem to be stuck on caring about what people think and say (ughh!!), even strangers on the internet, because they're still people to me. (My therapist said I shouldn't talk overmuch to people on the internet because those bonds aren't real, but I'd like to think it's not impossible that I might one day make a real friend or two here.)


I don't know, I've made a couple friends on here and we exchange texts and the occasional phone call. There are good peeps on here.

I joined your group btw.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone, hope you are all ok.
Just a quick update. 
Had a really nice weekend away in London, we've been back about 2 weeks now, and last week we hit a brick wall again. I mentioned something about the A and hubby has completely shut down again. We have had a rough couple of days I feel emotionally drained.
I'm considering moving out after Xmas, I love him so very much but I can't keep on doing this!

Any advice is more than welcome
X


----------



## daisygirl 41

Rookie4 said:


> I would also like to say to my R thread friends that Sweetie and I have decided to separate. It is what it is.


So sorry to hear this. I only pop in occasionally and missed this.
My thoughts are with you.


----------



## cpacan

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi everyone, hope you are all ok.
> Just a quick update.
> Had a really nice weekend away in London, we've been back about 2 weeks now, and last week we hit a brick wall again. I mentioned something about the A and hubby has completely shut down again. We have had a rough couple of days I feel emotionally drained.
> I'm considering moving out after Xmas, I love him so very much but I can't keep on doing this!
> 
> Any advice is more than welcome
> X


Sorry to hear that DG. How did you mention...? When I read it, I couldn't help thinking about an episode of Faulty Towers where the theme was "Don't mention the war..." - I take it wasn't anything like that 

Have you ever asked your husband: What will it take for you to not shut down whenever we talk about the affair?

I think it's very telling, and I'm right with you there, that whenever there's a conflict, you think about seperation or divorce. You're just on the edge of the cliff, so am I, and I wonder what it would take to get back in, closer to safety.

I would have advised you to give some time before you decide, but I see that you already did that. It happened last weekend, and you still think about it. And you won't execute before after x-mas, so it's not a heat in the moment decission.

Maybe it would help to have a talk with him about this and just how close you are to the edge? And yes, I know how it is, we have similar difficulties talking it out. Thoughts and a hug to you ((DG)).


----------



## cpacan

soulpotato said:


> There's something I see over and over here on TAM, and that's, "Cheaters are bad people." No redeeming qualities and no way of seeking redemption - just automatically bad. I could believe that about myself a lot of the time, but no way could I believe that about people like CSS, EI, or FG. So if "cheaters = bad people" is NOT true, why do so many people on TAM keep saying it? Heck, why even talk about reconciliation at that rate? It boggles the mind.


SP, a lot of wise comments already which I second.

I think we all to some extend project our own experiences, beliefs and thoughts onto whoever is available and seemingly suitable in the heat of the moment. WS, BS and OW - no exceptions. Further complicated by the fact that we don't always take enough time to think before we post - I'm guilty of that from time to time, I know.

What I think matters is, that those WS who come here to read, ask, understand, learn and reflect on things - they are definitely "getting it" - some are more stubborn than others, same goes for BS.

You are a very introspective person SP, I think you will learn to weed out posts and posters who are not helpfull.

Hang in there.


----------



## soulpotato

pidge70 said:


> I don't know, I've made a couple friends on here and we exchange texts and the occasional phone call. There are good peeps on here.
> 
> I joined your group btw.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lots of good people here, no doubt...I'm glad some of them have become your friends. You're a good person, too, Pidge.

Oh! Thank you.


----------



## soulpotato

DG, I'm sorry to hear about things with your H.  You've definitely given him a lot of leeway. I hope things turn around. I think cpacan makes good points.


----------



## Convection

cpacan said:


> What I think matters is, that those WS who come here to read, ask, understand, learn and reflect on things - they are definitely "getting it" - some are more stubborn than others, same goes for BS.


I don't post in CWI often but I read it, as cautionary data for my own marriage. Cpacan, I think many WS *could* be brought to this point, if the forum mood was less vitriolic. Often, the WS or even a hesitant BS can't take it and bail before they get to that level of introspection. The best approach to me is in line with the concept of, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." One can be firm and forceful without being nasty but it's a fine line.

Stories of successful R are good for the site. Y'all keep on keeping on.


----------



## cpacan

Convection said:


> I don't post in CWI often but I read it, as cautionary data for my own marriage. Cpacan, I think many WS *could* be brought to this point, if the forum mood was less vitriolic. Often, the WS or even a hesitant BS can't take it and bail before they get to that level of introspection. The best approach to me is in line with the concept of, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." One can be firm and forceful without being nasty but it's a fine line.
> 
> Stories of successful R are good for the site. Y'all keep on keeping on.


I agree with you on this. And it's a thin line that is very hard to maneurvre within.

I really wish that we could have more WS to put perspective on things in this forum. I also find myself triggering from their posts sometimes, and I also know exactly when it happens. It's usually when someone expresses the entitlement so strongly that it gets hard for me to seperate the sinner from the sin. Projection dkicks in - "Oh, she actually believe that I deserved being cheated on", and then I start to fight back the best I can.

The fact that almost every WS who enter CWI stick to the story that BS actions A,B,C and D _caused_ them to cheat is disturbing to my idea about life. Very few are open to the idea, that it could be a broken decission machine that made them cheat instead, and that whatever flaw the BS may have, is a different story, not less relevant, but just something to be dealt with on another level.

I really do try to understand, to be compassionate and to be gentle in my posts - but I also realize that I'm not always as successfull in that as I would like myself to be. But always working on it.

ETA: Just to make it absolutely clear - the hint of entitlement/not getting it doesn't apply to any of the fWS posting in the R-thread.


----------



## Refuse to be played

For all her fussing FG had fun last night. Got something planned for her to say thanks.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by soulpotato
> There's something I see over and over here on TAM, and that's, "Cheaters are bad people*." No redeeming qualities and no way of seeking redemption* - just automatically bad.




Soul Potato
EI has given those people a great verse from Matthew 7Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."


For us Christians the statement of those TAM posters below will never mean anything to us., "Cheaters are bad people." No redeeming qualities and no way of seeking redemption - just automatically bad.


First we Christian know that we are sinners and need mercy and grace from God. Secondly, we Christian have to decide if we are going to believe the judgments of those TAM people you are talking about or Christ who changed the whole western world. For us it is a slam dunk, Christ is our absolute authority on those type matters. Instead of paying any attention to those TAM posters maybe you will consider what God says. Here below is a small example of God’s word about the subject you brought up.


John 8 
King James Version (KJV)
8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them,* He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.*
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, *Neither do I condemn thee*: go, and sin no more.



Psalm 103:10-12 
He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, *so far does he remove our transgressions from us. *

Hebrews 8:12 
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and *I will remember their sins no more.”*


1 John 1:9 
If we confess our sins, *he is faithful and just to forgive* us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 



•	Ephesians 1:7
In him *we have redemption* through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace



•	Hebrews 10:17
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts *I will remember no more."*


•	Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; *you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.*
Every time I read those judgments by those TAM posters I just remember the real authority and His words. *God’s words and truth has been changing people for the better for centuries but those TAM posters’ condemning words will help no one. *


----------



## Forever Grateful

RTBP is awesome! He surprised me showing up at my office during my lunch break with some food and a BEAUTIFUL little boutique of roses and lilies to go on my desk. When I got home he had an even bigger boutique of lilies (my fav btw) and some chocolate covered strawberries waiting on the dining room table. Just came back from red lobster and plan on finishing the night on the couch watching movies. 

I might pass out during the first movie though. Been up all day and only had 4 hours of sleep. Worth it though, like RTBP said I had a great time last night and he made today really wonderful!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Mr Blunt..thank you for reminding me of those verses. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I sooo hate the sin I have done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> I sooo hate the sin I have done
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And THAT'S why you ARE a good person!

Never doubt it.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *
> Quote of CSS
> I sooo hate the sin I have done*



CSS
*That is a very important statement that is necessary for repentance and reconciliation.*

Thank you for being so honest and transparent


----------



## Convection

cpacan said:


> I agree with you on this. And it's a thin line that is very hard to maneurvre within.
> 
> I really wish that we could have more WS to put perspective on things in this forum. I also find myself triggering from their posts sometimes, and I also know exactly when it happens. It's usually when someone expresses the entitlement so strongly that it gets hard for me to seperate the sinner from the sin. Projection dkicks in - "Oh, she actually believe that I deserved being cheated on", and then I start to fight back the best I can.
> 
> The fact that almost every WS who enter CWI stick to the story that BS actions A,B,C and D _caused_ them to cheat is disturbing to my idea about life. Very few are open to the idea, that it could be a broken decission machine that made them cheat instead, and that whatever flaw the BS may have, is a different story, not less relevant, but just something to be dealt with on another level.
> 
> I really do try to understand, to be compassionate and to be gentle in my posts - but I also realize that I'm not always as successfull in that as I would like myself to be. But always working on it.
> 
> ETA: Just to make it absolutely clear - the hint of entitlement/not getting it doesn't apply to any of the fWS posting in the R-thread.


Sorry, cpacan. I wasn't trying to call you out specifically. The regular posters in the Reconciliation thread are pretty gentle, actually.


----------



## joe kidd

We are sinking. Too much to overcome I'm afraid.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> We are sinking. Too much to overcome I'm afraid.


 Come on man.
Me and CSS still have rough times,last night and most of today were rough but finally it got better
a couple hours ago.
It will pass,ride it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

We have both been stressed this week,CSS working more hours than normal and
me doing the early OT and still trying to get use to this new routine.
CSS said something that hurt me kinda bad so I did a slow cook and over reacted
the next day by not letting her in and being silent,then made sure I hurt her back.
Stupid,extremely stupid.
Now we are talking away....well she is but I like to hear about her new job.

I still need to be more patient and let some things roll off me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

joe kidd said:


> We are sinking. Too much to overcome I'm afraid.


Too much too overcome on both sides? Does Pidge feel the same way?

I am sad for both of you.


----------



## joe kidd

You work and work and what is the prize? The person who threw you away? Nope not worth it. The only way to get rid of this pain is to cut it out. Don't mean to piss on everyone's progress but if after 3 yrs I'm still full of hate it's just time to move on.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> You work and work and what is the prize? The person who threw you away? Nope not worth it. The only way to get rid of this pain is to cut it out. Don't mean to piss on everyone's progress but if after 3 yrs I'm still full of hate it's just time to move on.


 I was tossed out also for a real POS.
I also was retrieved by the person who tossed me out and is still helping me heal.
She does a lot to make up for it and hurts for the dumb choice.
We're all imperfect man.
Pidge really seems like a good girl.
I don't really want to take a chance on anyone else when I know what I have now.
People change joe,Pidge and you have changed for the better.
Don't throw all the hard work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

This is why I don't post anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Sorry Pidge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Pidge. ((hugs))
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

joe kidd said:


> You work and work and what is the prize? The person who threw you away? Nope not worth it. The only way to get rid of this pain is to cut it out. Don't mean to piss on everyone's progress but if after 3 yrs I'm still full of hate it's just time to move on.


But do you understand why you are so full of hate after 3 years?

Even if you pull the plug Joe you will have to understand and deal with the hate.

Otherwise it will just consume you. Cutting it out does not make it go away.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



happyman64 said:


> But do you understand why you are so full of hate after 3 years?
> 
> Even if you pull the plug Joe you will have to understand and deal with the hate.
> 
> Otherwise it will just consume you. Cutting it out does not make it go away.


True enough. After my first marriage ended my ex told me I was essentially worthless as a man. I should have worked on myself and worked through my feelings. But I subconsciously accepted it and set about to destroy myself by getting into fights and with alcohol and drugs. Then I did a 180 and tried to prove her wrong by bedding every woman I could. That was just as destructive. It was only when I finally dealt with my feelings that I was able to let all that go. It felt so good to have that weight lifted off me.


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> Sorry Pidge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Calvin.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Thanks Calvin.


 I hope you both don't give up,
Step back and cool off a litttle.Me and CSS are at 21 moths and is gotten a whole lot better
but we still hit rough patches and struggle.
We have to much time invested in our R to walk away from it.
Prayers for both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

It is not just the time you have wrapped in the reconciliation. 

You all have to remember the time you, CSS, Pidge and Joe have the time invested in your marriages. I am quite sure there is a lot of good times and memories invested inn your marriage. 

I understand the pain. I also understand that it takes both spouses totally invested in the reconciliation to have a successful outcome. 

And it takes years. 

Never give up. All of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Hi everyone. My mom told me the other day about some news one one of her old high school best friends. My mom eventually teached all three of her sons when they went through high school themselves. It's a sad story but it has a happy ending (so far) and it inspired me to be a bit more hopeful and that no matter how bleak it seems there always is a chance.

My mom's friend got married and had her first child in the early 80's. Her youngest was born the same year as RTBP 1986. After her youngest she got involved in a two year affair which ended when her husband discovered and he exposed it. (At this point my mom ended the friendship.) After discovery she wanted to reconcile but her husband would have none of it and went full steam ahead for divorce. Even though it went through she never stop perusing him and trying to reconcile even after he remarried (it only lasted a couple of years). She had custody of all the kids until the older two reached their teens and then went to live with their dad.

After about six years since the affair came out her and my mom resumed their friendship. Unfortunately her husband was still angry and hostile but she never stopped trying to reconcile. A few years later during their oldest high school graduation in 99 her ex husband finally let go of his anger and forgave her after nearly 10 years. By the time their youngest graduated from high school in 2004 they were good friends again. By 2010 her ex finally decided to take a chance and they began dating again. Early this weekend my mom told me she was invited to their wedding this upcoming Spring 2014. 

She never gave up trying and after over 25 years she finally has her family and marriage back. Like I said this kind of inspired me a bit. She had a hell of a lot tough hill to climb and after so many years when so many would've given up she kept going and eventually reached her goal of reconciliation and making her family whole again. I hope this helps anyone out there. I don't know why, I just felt like sharing.


----------



## daisygirl 41

joe kidd said:


> We are sinking. Too much to overcome I'm afraid.


So sorry Joe
You and I are in the same place at the moment. Nearly 2 years in and it's all gone tits up again.
Hubby has shut down and has withdrawn and I'm hurting all over again.
Don't want to do this anymore but love him so much the thought of leaving is devastating.
Wish I could just wake up and not care anymore.
Maybe his cheating was a deal breaker after all and I'm only just realising it.
To much hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Great story FG,its good to hear things like that.
Hang in there dg,I almost packed up a few things Saturday after work and was
going to stay at my buddys,probably for a few days but I did'nt.
I try not to jump the gun,I know if I wait and give it time those feelings will pass,
the triggers just don't have the power they used to.
Hang in there everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

joe kidd said:


> You work and work and what is the prize? The person who threw you away? Nope not worth it. The only way to get rid of this pain is to cut it out. Don't mean to piss on everyone's progress but if after 3 yrs I'm still full of hate it's just time to move on.


Hey Joe and Pidge, hope this morning finds you both in a better place. We have all ridden the roller coaster and know how easy it is to just want off. 

But Joe, I wanted to comment on your post above. I think it is a fair thought, and one that sneaks in to any BS mind when we are in a darker place. As some others have commented, walking away isn't going to mean the pain disappears. But I also wanted to comment on your question about "the prize". 

No, the prize is not the person that threw you away. The point of all the hard work in R is the *transformation* of the WS, the relationship and yes, even the BS. Pidge is not the same woman that made those decisions three years ago. She is a much stronger and more supportive partner. She is a woman who understands the importance of boundaries, and who no longer takes things like her marriage and her husband for granted. She is a person of strong character and extreme loyalty. Think of all the pain she has had over the last three years as well. All the time she has taken your (deserved) anger and faced the pain she has inflicted. The last three years have been far from easy for her as well.

The old Pidge that "threw you away"? She's dead. And there is a new Pidge standing in front of you, wanting to build anew and spend the years ahead making it up to you. The question is, can you set your anger down and join this new woman on this new journey. 

Accept her rebirth. Accept your rebirth. Accept the rebirth of your marriage. I am in no way implying this is easy. It's not. We have all been there, and it is the fight of a lifetime. But there comes a time when only YOU can decide to stop being the victim and start being the survivor. You can allow Pidge's affair to define you, or you can allow how you *handle* the affair to define you. We all know how strong you are, you just need to believe it as well.

Good luck guys!


----------



## calvin

Go Bears!

Yeah.....ok
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> Hey Joe and Pidge, hope this morning finds you both in a better place. We have all ridden the roller coaster and know how easy it is to just want off.
> 
> But Joe, I wanted to comment on your post above. I think it is a fair thought, and one that sneaks in to any BS mind when we are in a darker place. As some others have commented, walking away isn't going to mean the pain disappears. But I also wanted to comment on your question about "the prize".
> 
> No, the prize is not the person that threw you away. The point of all the hard work in R is the *transformation* of the WS, the relationship and yes, even the BS. Pidge is not the same woman that made those decisions three years ago. She is a much stronger and more supportive partner. She is a woman who understands the importance of boundaries, and who no longer takes things like her marriage and her husband for granted. She is a person of strong character and extreme loyalty. Think of all the pain she has had over the last three years as well. All the time she has taken your (deserved) anger and faced the pain she has inflicted. The last three years have been far from easy for her as well.
> 
> The old Pidge that "threw you away"? She's dead. And there is a new Pidge standing in front of you, wanting to build anew and spend the years ahead making it up to you. The question is, can you set your anger down and join this new woman on this new journey.
> 
> Accept her rebirth. Accept your rebirth. Accept the rebirth of your marriage. I am in no way implying this is easy. It's not. We have all been there, and it is the fight of a lifetime. But there comes a time when only YOU can decide to stop being the victim and start being the survivor. You can allow Pidge's affair to define you, or you can allow how you *handle* the affair to define you. We all know how strong you are, you just need to believe it as well.
> 
> Good luck guys!


Thank you very much for this post, it really means a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

The "old CSS" is gone also.
I love the new CSS,give it time joe and give Pidge a chance,she has earned it
Just like CSS has.
Wait out the triggers brother,they go away and fade,they lose their grip on you.
Easier said than done I know but I'd kick myself in the ass if I didn't really try.
It WILL get better.
Hang tight joe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Bears took out Rogers and are putting up a good fight.
Shows what you can do when you're determined.
Go Bears!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

joe kidd said:


> You work and work and what is the prize? The person who threw you away? Nope not worth it. The only way to get rid of this pain is to cut it out. Don't mean to piss on everyone's progress but if after 3 yrs I'm still full of hate it's just time to move on.


Joe,

I have seen people after a divorce and "cutting it out" doesn't work. Only after coming to terms with their feelings do they start to heal from their trauma. Ironically after that they are usually sorry that they divorced because they realize that what they needed to do was work through their own issues internally and that could have happened sooner and while they stayed married. I don't want to see you toss away your marriage for nothing.

Pardon me for saying this but your problem is you. You are refusing to work on your own feelings. You are hiding your head in the sand all the while hoping it will all go away. And you are projecting your issues onto Pidge and the marriage. Issues that you need to address whether you are married or not. What will you do when you are no longer married and continue to have this anger? Are you still going to blame Pidge after she is no longer there? Unless you plan on becoming a hermit you are going to have to learn to deal with people. And people screw up. People make mistakes. People hurt one another. And the closer that person is to you the more it will hurt when they do. The problem is not what Pidge did. The problem is that you want to run away from the problem rather than dealing with it. I know because I did the same thing for years. Running isn't the answer for when you stop running, as you eventually must, your problems will still be there waiting for you.


----------



## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> So sorry Joe
> You and I are in the same place at the moment. Nearly 2 years in and it's all gone tits up again.
> Hubby has shut down and has withdrawn and I'm hurting all over again.
> Don't want to do this anymore but love him so much the thought of leaving is devastating.
> Wish I could just wake up and not care anymore.
> Maybe his cheating was a deal breaker after all and I'm only just realising it.
> To much hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG, I'm sorry that things aren't going well now. I hope that somehow it will all work out.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi all. 
Hubby says he just doesn't love me the way he used to and doesn't know what to do. Says he's struggling too.
I told him he could have a get out of jail free card if that's what he wants but he just says he doesn't know what he wants.
Here I am heart broken again. I know what I should do but it's hard.
20 years gone by and a marriage that has had its fair share of drama. I've hurt him too in the past but nothing compared to wha he has done to me. If I am able to forgive and move on, why can't he.
He's shut down, won't talk about anything
I wouldn't say so much if we didn't get on so well. We still spend time together, have a laugh, sit together watching tv chatting, I just don't get it. What've I done that is so bad.
I know I need to let go but I also know that if I do it will be for the last time. I can't keep on like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

DG, I'm sorry.  It's not that you did something so bad. People have different strengths and capabilities, and people change. Could be your H just doesn't have it in him to go the distance whereas you obviously do.


----------



## bfree

DG, I know I'm beating a dead horse here but I was afraid this might happen. So long as he still works with his AP he is going to have a difficult time working on regaining his feelings for you while at the time suppressing his feelings for her. I've never seen a case where it works.


----------



## bfree

DG, if he doesn't want to work on your relationship there really is nothing you can do. But if he does say he wants to try working on the marriage I would suggest you bring up the job situation again and try to get him to understand that it's interfering in your and his recovery. I would also strongly suggest you contact the people at Marriage Builders and set up a phone counseling session. From what I hear they are very good.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thank you both,
Bfree, again you are right. Where I don't think the A is going on at all it has definitely made things so much harder. He doesn't think it has but I know it has. He just won't have it.
I feel like I've wasted the last 18 months. I'm in the same place now as I was then, but although it hurts, it's not quite so bad. I'm beginning to accept it.
I love him dearly, but I can't go on like this indefinitely. I've told him this morning I am done, and I actually feel a bit of relief. I can breathe. Stop trying, think about myself and the kids.
I can't make him love me, but he's a silly silly man. He's shut himself off emotionally and won't do anything to help himself or us. 
I'm not going to waste my time on trying to win his love again, I deserve more, I deserve to be loved and taken care of. 
Looks like its 180 time again. Better go and read up on the 'rules'
X


----------



## calvin

Yeah he's got to be away from the AP dg,I know that's hard on you and I couldn't 
handle that situation either.
I hope things get better for you both soon.
Prayers dg.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sammy3

I can relate real well with Joe. I have worked so hard with my anger, sadness,hurt,bitterness,self-esteem, & every nasty thing that comes along with a cheating marriage & trying to "get over it", the best I can in my new world.

I'm a little 2 years out. Had a almost 30 yr marriage, hubs stepped out at in the 27th yr. I'm just returning to mc & ic, as I read post of Calvin's, Amp, and likes,gives me hope, strength. 

And,I read post of others,who let go & sorry afterward, I read about people who are still numb or still only feel pain. And here I am, I still feel all of the above, I haven't still made peace with my lot. So,I see where Joe is coming from, sometimes, it would better if I could just cut it all away and it will all just go away. 

And Calvin, help me please, this whole mess changed me, made me someone I never was, I know I have to make peace with this person, but how do I learn to now like this person?

~sammy


----------



## daisygirl 41

How much credence do the TAM folk give to A Mid Life Crisis?
When my husband had his affair I believed he was having one then.
Can they go on this ling?
I'm reading The Divorce Remedy at the moment where she fully accepts the reality of a MLC.


----------



## sammy3

I think my hubs,had MLC and 9-11 had a lot to do with his mental state. 

~sammy


----------



## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> How much credence do the TAM folk give to A Mid Life Crisis?
> When my husband had his affair I believed he was having one then.
> Can they go on this ling?
> I'm reading The Divorce Remedy at the moment where she fully accepts the reality of a MLC.


I can only relate my opinion on a MLC. I think they're bogus and just an excuse for bad behavior.

I think we all have periods in our lives when we take stock of what we've accomplished and look forward into the future. I think when a man or a woman reaches a certain age they do take a hard look at their past, present and future. But using it as an excuse to have an affair....bull chips. Sometimes I look at things I always wanted to do and never had the time or the money to do and wonder if now would be a good time. I got my motorcycle license during one of these times. I went back to college to get a second degree during another one of these times. But I never said to myself "gee wouldn't it be great to have sex with another woman." Reevaluating your life doesn't cause you to forget you are in a committed relationship and anyone that uses it as an excuse is in my opinion just grasping at straws to blameshift.


----------



## calvin

sammy3 said:


> I can relate real well with Joe. I have worked so hard with my anger, sadness,hurt,bitterness,self-esteem, & every nasty thing that comes along with a cheating marriage & trying to "get over it", the best I can in my new world.
> 
> I'm a little 2 years out. Had a almost 30 yr marriage, hubs stepped out at in the 27th yr. I'm just returning to mc & ic, as I read post of Calvin's, Amp, and likes,gives me hope, strength.
> 
> And,I read post of others,who let go & sorry afterward, I read about people who are still numb or still only feel pain. And here I am, I still feel all of the above, I haven't still made peace with my lot. So,I see where Joe is coming from, sometimes, it would better if I could just cut it all away and it will all just go away.
> 
> And Calvin, help me please, this whole mess changed me, made me someone I never was, I know I have to make peace with this person, but how do I learn to now like this person?
> 
> ~sammy


 Yeah sam it does change you,if CSS knew of some of the internal stuggles I still
have she'd freak.
Hour by hour and day by day,the bad times pass and everything is ok again for awhile.
CSS has a lot to do with me getting through this,not over it but through it,the irony
is still there though.
Ride it out sam,at 21 months out it still can be a mother but I'm in a much better place than I was a year ago.
Don't give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

DG, I'm sorry you and your husband are struggling. I second bfree - Matt and I have been working with Steve Harley for phone coaching since last May and I feel it has made a world of difference for us. He specifically helps address the "love" feelings, understanding where they come from, how to continue them, or renew them. It may take the "magic" out of the idea of love, which can be hard to deal with, but it also takes away the feelings of helplessness or hopelessness as you face a relationship where romantic love is lacking. It IS something that can be deliberately fostered, and should be, each day. There are things you and your husband can both do to change the course you are on.

If you have any questions about my experience with the Marriage Builder system, please ask. I'm happy to share my thoughts and what I've learned.


----------



## pidge70

We're fine here. No worries.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> We're fine here. No worries.


 Good to hear pidge,hope you both keep getting better.
You guys are good people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

Calvin, 
Thank you... 21 months sounds not so bad... A mother it is! 

~ sammy


----------



## sammy3

Double


----------



## daisygirl 41

Mrs_Mathias said:


> DG, I'm sorry you and your husband are struggling. I second bfree - Matt and I have been working with Steve Harley for phone coaching since last May and I feel it has made a world of difference for us. He specifically helps address the "love" feelings, understanding where they come from, how to continue them, or renew them. It may take the "magic" out of the idea of love, which can be hard to deal with, but it also takes away the feelings of helplessness or hopelessness as you face a relationship where romantic love is lacking. It IS something that can be deliberately fostered, and should be, each day. There are things you and your husband can both do to change the course you are on.
> 
> If you have any questions about my experience with the Marriage Builder system, please ask. I'm happy to share my thoughts and what I've learned.


Thank you Mrs M. The only problem is I don't know if my husband wants to try any more. He says he's struggling,doesn't know what to do, but he won't do anything to help either.

He came home from work last night and we more or less carried on as normal. I'm implementing the 180, I have to, I need to distance self from him now, whatever the consequences may be. At the moment we are just friends who have children together, I really need to get my head around it. We didn't sleep in the same bed last night, at my suggestion. Once upon a time that would have devastated me, but now I'm ok just knowing he's upstairs.

We'll go on like this until after Xmas an then I think I'm looking at putting the house up for sale, well at least I'll think about it. It's just all so very sad.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

FWIW, Daisy, Matt didn't want to do it at first either. I would say to your husband that if he doesn't know what he wants, isn't it better to try something than nothing? Chances are talking with Steve will help clarify things in one direction or another and you both can go on with more peace of mind, knowing you explored all your options. Inaction never helps clarify anything, IMO.


----------



## calvin

sammy3 said:


> Calvin,
> Thank you... 21 months sounds not so bad... A mother it is!
> 
> ~ sammy


 Yep but I feel all the crap doesn't have the death grip it had on me before.
In the very near future I think me and CSS will be in a really good place together,
better than we were before her A.
All that garbage doesn't have a death grip on me like it did before.

Thread seems to be slowing down a lot,I pray everyone that's posted on here are doing
much better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Mrs M we live in the UK!!
Can't imagine how much a phone consultation would cost me!! &#55357;&#56841;

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
If I could go back, he wouldn't have moved back in so soon and I would have insisted on IC for him and MC for us.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Sorry, DG... I forget that! . I wonder if there is a UK equivalent?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

When DS and I first started on R, she was fine with not seeing me every weekend. For the last couple of months?, we've been seeing each other pretty much every weekend. When I told her earlier this week that we might not be able to see each other this weekend because I've got a big project I really have to finish up, she was like, "But..but.." It was SO cute.  So she is coming to visit for a bit. Very nice feeling that she wants to see me every weekend now, come hell or high water.


----------



## soulpotato

Mrs M, I just wanted to tell you that I admire your tireless dedication to a successful R with Mr M. I know some days you have got to be hurting and discouraged, especially with total strangers on TAM being so terrible to you at times. I respect you and admire you, as I do others here on the R thread.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> When DS and I first started on R, she was fine with not seeing me every weekend. For the last couple of months?, we've been seeing each other pretty much every weekend. When I told her earlier this week that we might not be able to see each other this weekend because I've got a big project I really have to finish up, she was like, "But..but.." It was SO cute.  So she is coming to visit for a bit. Very nice feeling that she wants to see me every weekend now, come hell or high water.


 That's good stuff SP,its good she misses you and wants to be with you.
I hate when CSS has to stay a little late at work,I do the but,but,....then I throw a tantrum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

daisygirl 41 said:


> Mrs M we live in the UK!!
> Can't imagine how much a phone consultation would cost me!! ��


Skype is your friend.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> We're fine here. No worries.


 Hope you both are doing good,been thinking about you guys.
You both are good people and have gave a lot of help here on Tams.
You guys belong together,I know you love eachother.
Pidge is a kind understanding lady,she helped me out a few times.
Joe is a mans man and has a funny ass sense of humor,good guy.
Just been thinking about you two (and some others here).
I pray all on the R thread are in a better place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

In my opinion, Joe just needs to get help with his temper. I'm saying that with care as a friend because he has posted on here admitting that his temper gets out of control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Hey everyone. Glad to hear most of you are doing okay at the moment. This past week was tough for a few people, us included. Only popped on a few times in the past week. Still getting in the swing of things at work so that has been a bit stressful, exhausting, and time consuming. I also have my first out of town trip coming the week after this upcoming one. Which couldn't have come at a worst time since things at home haven't been going so great between me and RTBP at the moment. 

In MC last Tuesday I told him about some feelings I've been having lately, mostly fear and guilt and how they manifest at the worst times. RTBP also was able to open up a bit more about his feelings and anger. He's been a bit withdrawn after that but he has gotten a better recently. IC has been helping him a lot with unburying and processing a lot of crap from his past and deal with it in a healthy manner. I HATE that I've added to it. I've tried to get him to talk about it a bit more outside of counseling but he won't budge. I even asked him to come here and talk if he didn't want to discuss it with me but he says he is going on another TAM break.

Good news though, my baby brother who was recently deployed will be back home in Jersey for Thanksgiving. Haven't seen him in person in almost 2 years so it'll be good to spend some time with him and the rest of my family. RTBP is really excited to see him too. Plus I get to see my little niece and nephew!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

I spoke too soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

pidge70 said:


> I spoke too soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Friggin roller-coaster huh?


----------



## pidge70

He loves me, he hates me. I can only assume that hate is the predominant feeling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> He loves me, he hates me. I can only assume that hate is the predominant feeling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Give him time Pidge,I felt like that.
He loves you,he's just a little scared,keep doing what you have to do to reasure
him.
Joe?
Come on man,get on the forgiveness path and give her a fair shot.
I feel she has earned it,just like CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

I released a tirade from hell by txt to my husband this morning. Haven't heard from him for 5 hours.
Feeling crappy : - (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> I released a tirade from hell by txt to my husband this morning. Haven't heard from him for 5 hours.
> Feeling crappy : - (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Sorry to hear that dg.
I hope things get better for you both soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

DS got a text message from the girl she had a borderline EA with (this is the one that sent her pictures with some nudity and talked about wanting to be sexual with her, etc) while we were eating lunch today. (Yes, we had a great weekend and she did not leave anywhere near when she was supposed to, so project is not accomplished, lol.) I told her she should just block the girl already and she said it was too much trouble, that she just ignores the messages. I said, "Well, it bothers me...I really wish you would block her. I don't want you seeing her messages and thinking about her anymore." DS would rather just keep getting the messages on occasion and not replying to them. This bugs me. It's crazy that we've had to talk about this girl so much, and that we've even had arguments over her before.  What is so hard about blocking the girl's number?

I wanted to grab the phone and threaten to kick her a$$, lol. Right here, right now, b!tch, SP will resolve this issue!!


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> DS got a text message from the girl she had a borderline EA with (this is the one that sent her pictures with some nudity and talked about wanting to be sexual with her, etc) while we were eating lunch today. (Yes, we had a great weekend and she did not leave anywhere near when she was supposed to, so project is not accomplished, lol.) I told her she should just block the girl already and she said it was too much trouble, that she just ignores the messages. I said, "Well, it bothers me...I really wish you would block her. I don't want you seeing her messages and thinking about her anymore." DS would rather just keep getting the messages on occasion and not replying to them. This bugs me. It's crazy that we've had to talk about this girl so much, and that we've even had arguments over her before.  What is so hard about blocking the girl's number?
> 
> I wanted to grab the phone and threaten to kick her a$$, lol. Right here, right now, b!tch, SP will resolve this issue!!


We all have different ways of dealing with unpleasantness. Some people tend to confront head on while others ignore and hope it all goes away. Neither way is completely wrong or completely right. I would say that as long as she is ignoring the texts and it doesn't become a deal breaker for you maybe the best thing is let it go.


----------



## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> I released a tirade from hell by txt to my husband this morning. Haven't heard from him for 5 hours.
> Feeling crappy : - (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry you are still having a difficult time DG. Maybe you should consider doing a 180 in order to protect yourself and to alleviate the tension between you both. You can't make him care nor can you make him open up. All you can do is take care of yourself.


----------



## bfree

pidge70 said:


> He loves me, he hates me. I can only assume that hate is the predominant feeling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I realize that I don't know either of you personally but I'm going to make the suggestion that anger is Joe's go to emotion. Unfortunately that is something he needs to deal with on his own. I also had a lot of anger issues years ago. I was befriended by a man who was Buddhist. Yeah I know I'm a Christian but I'm also not closed minded. He helped me deal with my anger and find a peaceful place inside me that I could go to when things started spiraling out of control. There are many different methods to deal with anger and I think Joe needs to find his way because in the end its only going to hurt him.


----------



## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> Hey everyone. Glad to hear most of you are doing okay at the moment. This past week was tough for a few people, us included. Only popped on a few times in the past week. Still getting in the swing of things at work so that has been a bit stressful, exhausting, and time consuming. I also have my first out of town trip coming the week after this upcoming one. Which couldn't have come at a worst time since things at home haven't been going so great between me and RTBP at the moment.
> 
> In MC last Tuesday I told him about some feelings I've been having lately, mostly fear and guilt and how they manifest at the worst times. RTBP also was able to open up a bit more about his feelings and anger. He's been a bit withdrawn after that but he has gotten a better recently. IC has been helping him a lot with unburying and processing a lot of crap from his past and deal with it in a healthy manner. I HATE that I've added to it. I've tried to get him to talk about it a bit more outside of counseling but he won't budge. I even asked him to come here and talk if he didn't want to discuss it with me but he says he is going on another TAM break.
> 
> Good news though, my baby brother who was recently deployed will be back home in Jersey for Thanksgiving. Haven't seen him in person in almost 2 years so it'll be good to spend some time with him and the rest of my family. RTBP is really excited to see him too. Plus I get to see my little niece and nephew!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG,

Some men tend to hold their feelings in. They don't feel comfortable revealing their inner emotions. I'm like that a lot and tend to quiet down when my emotions escalate. RTBP probably feels safe talking in counseling. Maybe eventually he will open up outside of the sessions but its not easy to overcome decades of repression. As long as you are both moving forward its a positive.

Its awesome you get to see your brother. This is going to be a wonderful Thanksgiving for you all.


----------



## russell28

soulpotato said:


> DS got a text message from the girl she had a borderline EA with (this is the one that sent her pictures with some nudity and talked about wanting to be sexual with her, etc) while we were eating lunch today. (Yes, we had a great weekend and she did not leave anywhere near when she was supposed to, so project is not accomplished, lol.) I told her she should just block the girl already and she said it was too much trouble, that she just ignores the messages. I said, "Well, it bothers me...I really wish you would block her. I don't want you seeing her messages and thinking about her anymore." DS would rather just keep getting the messages on occasion and not replying to them. This bugs me. It's crazy that we've had to talk about this girl so much, and that we've even had arguments over her before.  What is so hard about blocking the girl's number?
> 
> I wanted to grab the phone and threaten to kick her a$$, lol. Right here, right now, b!tch, SP will resolve this issue!!


Too much trouble? To make you comfortable? She gets a kick out of being pursued, doesn't want it to stop... Doesn't care enough that it upsets you. I wouldn't ignore it. It will be more of a problem if she insists on not blocking I would think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## user_zero

daisygirl 41 said:


> I released a tirade from hell by txt to my husband this morning. Haven't heard from him for 5 hours.
> Feeling crappy : - (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I suggest: 

you mark a certain date on your calender( it could be a month, 5 months or a year from now) , so on that specific day you take a look at your relationship and see where you and your husband stand. if you are not satisfied with it, then it would be better to just move on. 
You , like every single human being on this planet, want certain things (family , children , job , ...) in your life. you have dreams,wishes you want to accomplish just like your husband. I know that in those good image of future when you accomplished those things , you're imagining yourself with your husband, but you have to realize: if your spouse doesn't share the same dreams with you, or he can't put the necessary work toward them ... then it would be better for both of you to just end this marriage. I know this makes you sad. but you have to understand that you have a limited life time. for how long can you wait? you have to realize what is really important for you and how much is it important for you. the more time it takes , the less chance you both would have for realizing your dreams. and the more resentment you would feel when you two eventually be on the same page.
I know divorce is scary , sad and makes you feel like you have failed. I mean we both know that you didn't fail in your marriage but after the divorce a person should accept that even if they didn't make any mistake in marriage, they did one mistake and that was choosing the wrong partner. 
I know it's hard, but sometimes : something inside you must die , so other things could be born. sometimes you have to empty a few stuff from your bag, so you could lift the rest toward your destination unless you will never reach there.

PS: I hope whatever you choose, good things happen to you.(sorry for my bad english)


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> DS got a text message from the girl she had a borderline EA with (this is the one that sent her pictures with some nudity and talked about wanting to be sexual with her, etc) while we were eating lunch today. (Yes, we had a great weekend and she did not leave anywhere near when she was supposed to, so project is not accomplished, lol.) I told her she should just block the girl already and she said it was too much trouble, that she just ignores the messages. I said, "Well, it bothers me...I really wish you would block her. I don't want you seeing her messages and thinking about her anymore." DS would rather just keep getting the messages on occasion and not replying to them. This bugs me. It's crazy that we've had to talk about this girl so much, and that we've even had arguments over her before.  What is so hard about blocking the girl's number?
> 
> I wanted to grab the phone and threaten to kick her a$$, lol. Right here, right now, b!tch, SP will resolve this issue!!


Sorry to hear this SP. How is it too much trouble? It takes like 10 seconds to block a number on my phone. How would she feel if the situation was reversed and you said it was too much trouble to block a number? That's not right.

Glad you had a great weekend together though not counting this.

And as for the other chick...I'll hold her arms! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> We all have different ways of dealing with unpleasantness. Some people tend to confront head on while others ignore and hope it all goes away. Neither way is completely wrong or completely right. I would say that as long as she is ignoring the texts and it doesn't become a deal breaker for you maybe the best thing is let it go.


I know...maybe this is a boundaries thing for her, I don't know. We talked about it a little more and she said if I will help her, she will do it. 

No, something like that could never be a deal breaker. There are very few things she could do that would be deal breakers for me, especially at this point.


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Sorry to hear this SP. How is it too much trouble? It takes like 10 seconds to block a number on my phone. How would she feel if the situation was reversed and you said it was too much trouble to block a number? That's not right.
> 
> Glad you had a great weekend together though not counting this.
> 
> And as for the other chick...I'll hold her arms!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I said the same thing! I was like, "What if AP was texting me and I was like whatever, no biggie?? Wouldn't you be upset?!" And she was like, "But I don't care about this person." :slap: ARGH! It's about _my_ feelings. I don't know, she just hates doing those little things.

Haha, thanks, FG! It is great to have help! Stupid girl is a model, too, and thought she was just soooo gorgeous. Has a very high opinion of her charms and their powers. I'LL FIX THAT FOR HER. :FIREdevil:


----------



## soulpotato

FG, I agree with bfree. Maybe RTBP is especially anxious to talk about certain things outside of your sessions because he wants to make sure nothing goes wrong. It's far more reassuring to talk about sensitive subjects in the therapist's office - the controlled environment.


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> FG,
> 
> Some men tend to hold their feelings in. They don't feel comfortable revealing their inner emotions. I'm like that a lot and tend to quiet down when my emotions escalate. RTBP probably feels safe talking in counseling. Maybe eventually he will open up outside of the sessions but its not easy to overcome decades of repression. As long as you are both moving forward its a positive.
> 
> Its awesome you get to see your brother. This is going to be a wonderful Thanksgiving for you all.


Thanks bfree. I was told this was the case. He has gotten a lot better at it but I know a few months of counseling can't undo 2 decades worth of repression. I just sometimes go overboard with wanting to discuss things when he's done. Both RTBP and our counselor has called me out on it. 

And thanks its going to great to have all my family together again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> I said the same thing! I was like, "What if AP was texting me and I was like whatever, no biggie?? Wouldn't you be upset?!" And she was like, "But I don't care about this person." :slap: ARGH! It's about _my_ feelings. I don't know, she just hates doing those little things.
> 
> Haha, thanks, FG! It is great to have help! Stupid girl is a model, too, and thought she was just soooo gorgeous. Has a very high opinion of her charms and their powers. I'LL FIX THAT FOR HER. :FIREdevil:


 Talk about a double standard. Glad she decided to go ahead and block the number though. 

RTBP has a classmate like that. She isn't a model but she sure as hell thinks she is. She is way too flirty for my taste and when she interacts with me she comes off as fake. So I would be polite but in my head I'm screaming, "I WILL STAB YOU IN THE F-ING FACE B---H!!" 

(Putting the crazy back in the box) 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> FG, I agree with bfree. Maybe RTBP is especially anxious to talk about certain things outside of your sessions because he wants to make sure nothing goes wrong. It's far more reassuring to talk about sensitive subjects in the therapist's office - the controlled environment.


This could be the case. As I said I can sometimes go overboard and annoy him with this. Counselor keeps me on topic and focus. Sucks that work is going to require us to cut down on our visits. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Oh yeah how is the MC hunt going SP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

My 25 year wedding anniversary today.. I told the wife not to get me anything, and I won't get her anything.. we are broke anyway, and really, right now it just feels like another day to me. Not wanting to think about the recent past ones.. and how hurtful they were, and are now in hindsight. So far I've only had a few moments of brief anger.. I guess I'm more grateful that there are no mysteries this year like the cold anniversary card that didn't make sense since I stupidly spent time trying to find one with a nice message.. hoping to get a nice message in return, since affection towards me was so rare, instead I'd get a joke card..


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Oh yeah how is the MC hunt going SP?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DS has not done anything as she is feeling a bit overwhelmed by stress right now. I am probably going to have to call.


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Talk about a double standard. Glad she decided to go ahead and block the number though.


Yeaahhh...but she doesn't see it that way. She says it's different.  (It will actually be me logging in and blocking it for her. Another thing on my to-do list!)



Forever Grateful said:


> RTBP has a classmate like that. She isn't a model but she sure as hell thinks she is. She is way too flirty for my taste and when she interacts with me she comes off as fake. So I would be polite but in my head I'm screaming, "I WILL STAB YOU IN THE F-ING FACE B---H!!"
> 
> (Putting the crazy back in the box)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



HAHAHAH!! :rofl: FG, you are awesome. Love that spirit! :smthumbup: Sometimes the crazy has to come out of the box just a little - it's great for regulating uppity interlopers! (See SP's "killer glare incident" from when DS had one of the dating site girls around to help her move out!)


----------



## soulpotato

russell28 said:


> Too much trouble? To make you comfortable? She gets a kick out of being pursued, doesn't want it to stop... Doesn't care enough that it upsets you. I wouldn't ignore it. It will be more of a problem if she insists on not blocking I would think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Russell, thank you for your response. Yeah, I'm not sure, we've historically had some trouble with her seeing certain feelings as valid or requiring any action on her part. It does bother me that I have to keep bringing something up for her to respond. We've been over this in therapy before.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Russell
Sorry about your crappy day.

Sort if this is going to trigger anyone so do t read if you're feeling fragile but my gut is telling me something is very wrong.
I have no proof (I didn't before) but I think my H is involved with the OW again. There are far too any coincidences from the last time this happened.
He has shut down completely, he has become cold. I feel like I am in exactly the same position as this time 2 years ago.
His refusal to discuss the A
His refusal to quit his job
His lack of comfort for me when I am hurting
I could go on.

We are due to have a chat tomorrow.
Separation after Xmas is inevitable now.
Do I tell him what I think about this? Do I confront him even though I have no evidence?
I really need help in this please.

I understand if anyone would like me to move this to another thread
DG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## user_zero

daisygirl 41 said:


> Russell
> Sorry about your crappy day.
> 
> Sort if this is going to trigger anyone so do t read if you're feeling fragile but my gut is telling me something is very wrong.
> I have no proof (I didn't before) but I think my H is involved with the OW again. There are far too any coincidences from the last time this happened.
> He has shut down completely, he has become cold. I feel like I am in exactly the same position as this time 2 years ago.
> *His refusal to discuss the A
> His refusal to quit his job
> His lack of comfort for me when I am hurting*
> I could go on.
> 
> We are due to have a chat tomorrow.
> *Separation after Xmas is inevitable now.*
> *Do I tell him what I think about this? Do I confront him even though I have no evidence?*
> I really need help in this please.
> 
> I understand if anyone would like me to move this to another thread
> DG
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think confrontation can help you in anyway. but if you wanna ask him, well just ask him and if he asks about your reasons. tell him it's just a gut feeling. remember you don't have any real evidence and you're saying he doesn't care about his relationship with you. so even if he tells you the truth ,can you believe him?
Don't torture yourself for this. my advice based on what you described is to proceed with separation and divorce. I'm sorry if he doesn't want to have a honest relationship with you , you can't force him in any way. it would be better to move on. Good luck 

I wrote another post to you about this , I don't know if you read it or not. but here it is again:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation-705.html#post5458018


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## calvin

Get it out in the open dg,ask him point blank what he wants.
Don't move to another thread,you have a lot of support here.
Prayers dg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

I'd like to make a couple of observations. Bfree, did you want to stay with your ex and work through all of this? Would staying with her in fact impede progress? 

Because while I see that yes you always have to deal with the emotional toll that different things take on you, this icoming to terms is individual. It doesn't depend on staying in the marriage. 

To suggest that divorcing throws away hard work seems self-serving to those that seem to need others to stick it out as a kind of 12-step group. The thing is that with a 12-step group you are struggling to rid yourself of a destructive habit and to learn to make yourself whole again. 

If the WW is the drug equivalent, leaving will help clear the head and start to feel better. Their presence keeps the BS stuck in the equivalent of the disease. 

The hard work is never wasted. Coming to the point where you realize staying is preventing healing is the result of that hard work. The effort was made, greater understanding developed, but you learn that it isn't working so you make the very painful decision to stop trying to be what you aren't and stop trying to be who others want you to be. 

The progress is not lost. The hard work is not wasted. 

The only way you can say something like that is if you believe there is only one acceptable outcome. There are many possibilities. Only one of them is staying married. 

JK gave it a damn good fight. Pidge did all she could. That's all anyone can do. Unfortunately doing your best doesn't guarantee you will get the outcome you desire. 

I wish everyone could suffer a brain injury that would erase the memories and the mind movies. That seems extreme. Better for those that have realized their limits to opt out than to find another way to dull the mind. 

I admire those who can stay together but I question the sense in destroying yourself for the person that destroyed you, no matter how remorseful they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Russell
> Sorry about your crappy day.
> 
> Sort if this is going to trigger anyone so do t read if you're feeling fragile but my gut is telling me something is very wrong.
> I have no proof (I didn't before) but I think my H is involved with the OW again. There are far too any coincidences from the last time this happened.
> He has shut down completely, he has become cold. I feel like I am in exactly the same position as this time 2 years ago.
> His refusal to discuss the A
> His refusal to quit his job
> His lack of comfort for me when I am hurting
> I could go on.
> 
> We are due to have a chat tomorrow.
> Separation after Xmas is inevitable now.
> Do I tell him what I think about this? Do I confront him even though I have no evidence?
> I really need help in this please.
> 
> I understand if anyone would like me to move this to another thread
> DG
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He still works with her. The affair never ended. Sorry DG.


----------



## bfree

clipclop2 said:


> I'd like to make a couple of observations. Bfree, did you want to stay with your acct and work through all of this?
> 
> Because while I see that yes you always have to deal with the emotional toll that different things take on you. But this is coming to terms is individual. It doesn't depend on staying in the marriage.
> 
> To suggest that divorcing throws away hard work seems self-serving to those that seem to need others to stick it out as a kind of 12-step group. The thing is that with a 12-step group you are struggling to rid yourself of a destructive habit and to learn to make yourself whole again.
> 
> If the WW is the drug equivalent, leaving will help clear the head and start to feel better. Their presence keeps the BS stuck in the equivalent of the disease.
> 
> The hard work is never wasted. Coming to the point where you realize staying is preventing healing is the result of that hard work. The effort was made, greater understanding developed, but you learn that it isn't working so you make the very painful decision to stop trying to be what you aren't and stop trying to be who others want you to be.
> 
> The progress is not lost. The hard work is not wasted.
> 
> The only way you can say something like that is if you believe there is only one acceptable outcome. There are many possibilities. Only one of them is staying married.
> 
> JK gave it a damn good fight. Pidge did all she could. That's all anyone can do. Unfortunately doing your best doesn't guarantee you will get the outcome you desire.
> 
> I wish everyone could suffer a brain injury that would erase the memories and the mind movies. That seems extreme. Better for those that have realized their limits to opt out than to find another way to dull the mind.
> 
> I admire those who can stay together but I question the sense in destroying yourself for the person that destroyed you, no matter how remorseful they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not exactly sure what you trying to say here. Can you explain further?

As for Joe and Pidge, I do hope they stay together. I know they've both worked very hard to try and get past the infidelity and many of the issues in the marriage prior to it. My main concern with Joe is his anger. I know from experience and the experience with others that unless he comes to terms with his feelings it will consume him. And ending his marriage is not the magic pill that will cure his issues. Whether they divorce or stay together he needs to deal with his anger in a constructive way. Else it will follow him and fester destroying his personal life and any future relationships he might have.


----------



## clipclop2

Can't Joe come to terms with his anger more easily if the source of his anger is absent? Have you ever left a toxic situation and after a few days start to feel yourself begin to relax? You may not have grasped how it was affecting you emotionally and physically until you start to feel that relief. It doesn't come from hard work, it comes from distance. 

CS Lewis said something about going in the right direction and that forward isn't always it. If you miss a turn you must go back. That missed turn might not be taken because you didn't realize you'd missed it or because you are too stubborn to admit you've made a mistake. 

Going forward because you've already missed the turn by 10 feet or 10,000 miles is not going to get you where you want to be. And you can't wish yourself there. So you face facts. You accept reality. 

Re the question I asked you, you failed to do the soul -searching required to get yourself together for a long time. Do you think you would have done it sooner if you and your ex- hadn't split up? IOW, would staying married have helped you get where you needed to be or would her presence inhibited your growth? 

If someone isn't built to get over something they can still move past it by moving on and replacing the bad with new good things. It is like the advice in R. No difference. Except... the WW isn't the only person on the planet who can help build positives. You can do it alone. With someone else. They simply are not essential to someone's healing. 

The prize is the new them? Many people liked the old them just fine, even with their flaws. The alleged new them is still the person that wrecked the marriage. You both have to live with that. Butyou don't have to live together to do it. 

For me it would take something that would erase my memory to be able to stay with them. Forgiveness is sometimes best from afar when the wound is too deep. 

Yeah you still gotta heal but it is easier to heal when you can breath. 

DG: I hope your spidey senses are wrong. When was the last time you mentioned the A before this? Was his response the same? Could he just be caught off guard that things seemed to be going well and then a big downer was dropped? My h starts believing that a few good times means everything is better and he is blown away when reality hits. Madening!

Your h has never been there to comfort you so i understand why you have reached the end. He only wants what is easy. He can't accept the consequences. IMO this is head in the sand behavior and the kind that tells you he can and probably will do it again even if he isn't doing it right now. 

Distance will certainly help you. Good luck. 180 for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

Was Joe an angry man before this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Like bfree says, a person's issues follow them until they resolve or work through. Replacing the person who hurt you with a different person isn't going to fix anything, it's just going to have you carting your issues into a new relationship where you will have the same old problems with a new person, with maybe a little twist for individuality. 

I think the WS is uniquely suited to helping the BS heal. It's like this. If someone close to you hurts you and leaves you for someone else to bandage, is that better or worse than the person who hurt you doing everything they can to give you first aid and help you heal, expressing their remorse and regret all the while that they hurt you? I don't know, I think I'd rather have the person who injured me address the injury. 

Here, let's have a real-life example. DS and I were talking about some things last night, and she felt deep down in our previous relationship that I did not value her (even though I did, I did things that contradicted that, obviously). Since I've been working to become a better, healthier person and show her how important she is to me, she feels how much I actually DO value her, and it soothes that deep pain that she lived with before. Do you think that would have happened if she had decided not to R with me and had gone on with a new person? She always would have been left with the impression that SP, her most important person, had not valued her. Do you think a new person would make that go away? I kind of doubt it.


----------



## daisygirl 41

bfree said:


> He still works with her. The affair never ended. Sorry DG.


Ouch!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

DG, even if your H is not actively engaged with the OW, the fact that he still works with her does make progress questionable, if not impossible. There can't be any division or uncertainty of commitment on his part if R is to be successful.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thank you for all your replies.
I asked him last week if the A was still going on. He said no. He said I could check on him whenever I wanted or turn up where he goes surfing unannounced and I'll find nothing. He says he's got nothing to hide.
Things have gone down hill so dramatically over the last week but I know some of that is me pushing for a response or a solution because I'm not prepared to be hurt again like I was before. It's like I want to get in there first.
I haven't seen him since Monday morning due to our work schedule. I've arranged for my daughter to go to my mums tomorrow after school so we can go and talk somewhere. I just got to stop myself getting emotional. 
I'm going to let him speak first. He says he wants to have an open and honest discussion with me.
We'll see!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

soulpotato said:


> DG, even if your H is not actively engaged with the OW, the fact that he still works with her does make progress questionable, if not impossible. There can't be any division or uncertainty of commitment on his part if R is to be successful.


I realise that now. I thought we could do it but it's too hard. It never goes away!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

clipclop2 said:


> Can't Joe come to terms with his anger more easily if the source of his anger is absent? Have you ever left a toxic situation and after a few days start to feel yourself begin to relax? You may not have grasped how it was affecting you emotionally and physically until you start to feel that relief. It doesn't come from hard work, it comes from distance.
> 
> CS Lewis said something about going in the right direction and that forward isn't always it. If you miss a turn you must go back. That missed turn might not be taken because you didn't realize you'd missed it or because you are too stubborn to admit you've made a mistake.
> 
> Going forward because you've already missed the turn by 10 feet or 10,000 miles is not going to get you where you want to be. And you can't wish yourself there. So you face facts. You accept reality.
> 
> Re the question I asked you, you failed to do the soul -searching required to get yourself together for a long time. Do you think you would have done it sooner if you and your ex- hadn't split up? IOW, would staying married have helped you get where you needed to be or would her presence inhibited your growth?
> 
> If someone isn't built to get over something they can still move past it by moving on and replacing the bad with new good things. It is like the advice in R. No difference. Except... the WW isn't the only person on the planet who can help build positives. You can do it alone. With someone else. They simply are not essential to someone's healing.
> 
> The prize is the new them? Many people liked the old them just fine, even with their flaws. The alleged new them is still the person that wrecked the marriage. You both have to live with that. Butyou don't have to live together to do it.
> 
> For me it would take something that would erase my memory to be able to stay with them. Forgiveness is sometimes best from afar when the wound is too deep.
> 
> Yeah you still gotta heal but it is easier to heal when you can breath.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In my situation I wasn't with my ex when I self destructed. Do I think I would have healed sooner if we had stayed together? I don't know the answer to that question. What I can tell you is that until I removed my cranium from my posterior I couldn't work through my issues. And that's what I believe here as well. 

Why do you believe that Pidge is the source of Joe's anger? I believe that what has transpired in their marriage is the genesis of Joe's issues. Maybe he is having trouble separating the person from the actions. Maybe he has always had an issue with anger. I suspect that could be the case. In any event I don't think Pidge's presence or her removal is going to matter. This is an internal struggle that Joe is having and I don't think any external forces are going to resolve or worsen things. Infidelity changes everyone it touches. Its how we deal with those changes that defines us.

I actually find it interesting that you quoted CS Lewis. Here is a quote that I feel is much more appropriate for this situation.

_One man may be so placed that his anger sheds the blood of thousands, and another so placed that however angry he gets he will only be laughed at. But the little mark on the soul may be much the same in both. Each has done something to himself which, unless he repents, will make it harder for him to keep out of the rage next time he is tempted, and will make the rage worse when he does fall into it. Each of them, if he seriously turns to God, can have that twist in the central man straightened out again: each is, in the long run, doomed if he will not. The bigness or smallness of the thing, seen from the outside, is not what really matters._


----------



## soulpotato

daisygirl 41 said:


> I realise that now. I thought we could do it but it's too hard. It never goes away!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's just it, that "we" part. You can't do it alone, and he hasn't been fully in this with you. If he really wants to R, he has to realize that he has to make big changes and whatever sacrifices are necessary.


----------



## daisygirl 41

soulpotato said:


> That's just it, that "we" part. You can't do it alone, and he hasn't been fully in this with you. If he really wants to R, he has to realize that he has to make big changes and whatever sacrifices are necessary.


It's obvious now. He just doesn't want it enough to put in the hard work.
I'm off to bed now.
Will get back to you all tomorrow night and let you know how the chat went.
I'm usually all for talking but I'm dreading it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Ouch!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry but I needed to say it. If you recall I said that so long as he has any contact with his AP the affair is still going on, even if its in his mind. Do you think its a coincidence that when he isn't working you both reconnect but as soon as he goes back to work there is trouble? If he won't leave that job and go no contact you will not be able to reconcile. Its impossible.

You need to understand that his job and the affair are inexorably linked. I hope when you have that talk with him tomorrow you stress this to him. If there is any part of him that wants to save the marriage he will leave his job. If he refuses then he is choosing his job and by extension his affair partner over you and the marriage.


----------



## soulpotato

daisygirl 41 said:


> Thank you for all your replies.
> I asked him last week if the A was still going on. He said no. He said I could check on him whenever I wanted or turn up where he goes surfing unannounced and I'll find nothing. He says he's got nothing to hide.


We're here for you, DG. Even if he's not sending messages or going anywhere he shouldn't, what about in his heart and mind? You can't really check in there, after all, other than with that _sense_ of something being off, him being cold. Something is going on in there, whether it's towards the AP or what.



daisygirl 41 said:


> Things have gone down hill so dramatically over the last week but I know some of that is me pushing for a response or a solution because I'm not prepared to be hurt again like I was before. It's like I want to get in there first.
> I haven't seen him since Monday morning due to our work schedule. I've arranged for my daughter to go to my mums tomorrow after school so we can go and talk somewhere. I just got to stop myself getting emotional.
> I'm going to let him speak first. He says he wants to have an open and honest discussion with me.
> We'll see!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are quick to take responsibility and own anything you perceive as your contribution to problems, but too much so - you have a very generous heart, DG. You shouldn't have to push him for responses or solutions, he should offer them up, and be completely available to you. Good that you're trying to stay calm. Talk first, _then_ club him over the head.  He shouldn't be making you worry like this. I hope he is completely forthcoming with you and is able to give you something real that will ease your mind. You have been working so hard and have been _so_ patient and understanding with him despite everything, even too much so. If he botches this with you, it is definitely his loss, but I know you must be in so much pain right now. I'm sorry.  I'm hoping for the best for you. 

That dumba$$ is lucky that you love him so much!! (I hope that doesn't offend you!)


----------



## daisygirl 41

bfree said:


> I'm sorry but I needed to say it. If you recall I said that so long as he has any contact with his AP the affair is still going on, even if its in his mind. Do you think its a coincidence that when he isn't working you both reconnect but as soon as he goes back to work there is trouble? If he won't leave that job and go no contact you will not be able to reconcile. Its impossible.
> 
> You need to understand that his job and the affair are inexorably linked. I hope when you have that talk with him tomorrow you stress this to him. If there is any part of him that wants to save the marriage he will leave his job. If he refuses then he is choosing his job and by extension his affair partner over you and the marriage.


Of course I understand. But he was the one to finish the A in the first place and was desperate to come home again. The A was only exposed for 3 weeks and I'd cut him off and he ended it with no pressure from me at all. She humiliated him. He doesn't want to be a father to someone else's kids. Would he really go there after all that?

I agree it's no coincidence that we reconnect during holidays then it all goes down hill again when he's back in work and that is something I will bring up tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

soulpotato said:


> We're here for you, DG. Even if he's not sending messages or going anywhere he shouldn't, what about in his heart and mind? You can't really check in there, after all, other than with that _sense_ of something being off, him being cold. Something is going on in there, whether it's towards the AP or what.
> 
> 
> 
> You are quick to take responsibility and own anything you perceive as your contribution to problems, but too much so - you have a very generous heart, DG. You shouldn't have to push him for responses or solutions, he should offer them up, and be completely available to you. Good that you're trying to stay calm. Talk first, _then_ club him over the head.  He shouldn't be making you worry like this. I hope he is completely forthcoming with you and is able to give you something real that will ease your mind. You have been working so hard and have been _so_ patient and understanding with him despite everything, even too much so. If he botches this with you, it is definitely his loss, but I know you must be in so much pain right now. I'm sorry.  I'm hoping for the best for you.
> 
> That dumba$$ is lucky that you love him so much!! (I hope that doesn't offend you!)


No offence taken. I know I'm a dumbass, but I truly want my marriage to work. 
It's not as desperately painful like it was before, but it still hurts.
I've done everything I can to save this marriage and I'm just exhausted now.
I need peace!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

daisygirl 41 said:


> Of course I understand. But he was the one to finish the A in the first place and was desperate to come home again. The A was only exposed for 3 weeks and I'd cut him off and he ended it with no pressure from me at all. She humiliated him. He doesn't want to be a father to someone else's kids. Would he really go there after all that?
> 
> I agree it's no coincidence that we reconnect during holidays then it all goes down hill again when he's back in work and that is something I will bring up tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its not about him envisioning a future with her. Its about him focusing his feelings on her and not you. So long as he is *either* hating her or loving her he is still focused on her and he cannot focus his feelings on you at the same time. This is why total no contact is imperative.


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## soulpotato

daisygirl 41 said:


> No offence taken. I know I'm a dumbass, but I truly want my marriage to work.
> It's not as desperately painful like it was before, but it still hurts.
> I've done everything I can to save this marriage and I'm just exhausted now.
> I need peace!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, no, you're not the dumba$$, _he_ is! Of course you want it to work. I just want to see him to help you make it work.


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> DS has not done anything as she is feeling a bit overwhelmed by stress right now. I am probably going to have to call.


Yeah you might have to take charge and find a good one yourself. They'll be able to help with situations like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Yeaahhh...but she doesn't see it that way. She says it's different.  (It will actually be me logging in and blocking it for her. Another thing on my to-do list!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAHAHAH!! :rofl: FG, you are awesome. Love that spirit! :smthumbup: Sometimes the crazy has to come out of the box just a little - it's great for regulating uppity interlopers! (See SP's "killer glare incident" from when DS had one of the dating site girls around to help her move out!)


How is it any different? Sigh, whatever, at least you can go about doing it then. And like I said MC would've been very handy for stuff like this.

Yeah letting it out in small doses seems to be okay and it does the job well. She or any others haven't done anything recently to piss me off but I am not going to hold my tongue again with them. Conflict avoiding FG is gone. I doubt I'll ever get to the point where I enjoy conflict like RTBP does sometimes, but I don't want to be afraid of it when the situation calls for it. Like putting poaching b---hes in their place.

Sorry had a couple of glasses of wine...it's been a long day. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> How is it any different? Sigh, whatever, at least you can go about doing it then. And like I said MC would've been very handy for stuff like this.


She can be very stubborn and set in thinking about something a certain way. She wants to explain to me why it shouldn't bother me instead of responding to the fact that it DOES bother me. It's not intentional, though, and I know she's trying to work on it because she is aware that I just find the explanations as to why I shouldn't feel something more frustrating. 



Forever Grateful said:


> Yeah letting it out in small doses seems to be okay and it does the job well. She or any others haven't done anything recently to piss me off but I am not going to hold my tongue again with them. Conflict avoiding FG is gone. I doubt I'll ever get to the point where I enjoy conflict like RTBP does sometimes, but I don't want to be afraid of it when the situation calls for it. Like putting poaching b---hes in their place.
> 
> Sorry had a couple of glasses of wine...it's been a long day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Get 'em, FG, get 'em! I'm not a big fan of conflict either, but I'll fight when I need to. 

I had a long day, too. I've come down with something but I still really have to finish the work I need to do before tomorrow. I'm not sure how I am going to do it alone. My head is spinning and I have no energy at all.


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## daisygirl 41

Can anyone link to post/ article for the stages the BS goes through please
X


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## Mrs_Mathias

Here you go DG:



> Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.
> 
> The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.
> 
> YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.
> 
> They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.
> 
> It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?
> 
> As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”
> 
> The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?
> 
> Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)
> 
> But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.
> 
> So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:
> 
> What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.
> 
> Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.
> 
> You can be a positive influence on their recovery.
> 
> Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.
> 
> Your first mission is to learn.
> 
> Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
> this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
> Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”
> 
> Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.
> 
> SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS
> 
> DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)
> 
> SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.
> 
> REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.
> 
> CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)
> 
> PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”
> 
> CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)
> 
> SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.
> 
> NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.
> 
> Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.
> 
> WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.
> 
> INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
> Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”
> 
> A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)
> 
> INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.
> 
> REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.
> 
> IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.
> 
> FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.
> 
> BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.
> 
> WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.
> 
> EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.
> 
> TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.
> 
> Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.
> 
> Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.
> 
> It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.
> 
> SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?
> 
> Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.
> 
> This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.
> 
> GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.
> 
> APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.
> 
> REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.
> 
> HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.
> 
> You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.
> 
> The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.
> 
> SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.
> 
> PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.
> 
> SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.
> 
> LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.
> 
> HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”
> 
> These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
> moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
> comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:
> 
> A statement of gratitude.
> 
> An expression of your love.
> 
> An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.
> 
> An admission that you caused their pain.
> 
> An expression of your sense of shame.
> 
> A promise that it will never happen again
> 
> Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.
> 
> SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?
> 
> HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
> for others.
> 
> COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.
> 
> SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
> begin exploring new involvements.
> 
> PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.
> 
> LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.
> 
> FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.
> 
> Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

A quick note to all on the R thread - thanks so much for the recent messages and all the support given to me over the past year as I have worked to grow from my awful choices, and attempt to help repair/rebuild my relationship with Matt. We are coming up on the 1 year past final D-Day and 1 year of full NC, and I am both anticipating and dreading that marker. 

On one hand, it feels good to know that I have been consistent in my choices and efforts now for almost a year. I feel I have definitely grown in awareness and wisdom as I have focused on what the root causes of my affair were, what it takes to maintain a relationship, gaining a better understanding of myself and my partner, and considering what is truly valuable and important to me in the long run.

On the other hand, it's hard to know that I created such an awful impetus for change to happen. I hate looking backward at what I did and who I was. But I do it every day. Matt will never get to put this down, so why should I? I believe we both can get through it, that positive progress has been made, and I truly believe we can have a wonderful future together with our boys. But I know he worries about me "forgetting" or going back to life pre-affair. I work hard every day to attempt to assure him that will not happen. Little by little, one grain of sand at a time, I hope to sway the balance of our relationship away from the destruction of the affair and toward a happy future. I just want to say thanks to all of you sharing your thoughts, your struggles, and your successes here. It helps more than anyone could possibly know.


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## daisygirl 41

Thank you Mrs M.
I'm going to see if I can get hubby to read it as our communication is terrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

Mrs. Matthias

To be honest I did not think that you would be this far along in recovery; in fact I did not think that you would make it for one year. I am so glad that I am wrong. From what I have read you are real serious about the R and are working very hard at it.

The first year was the hardest for us so you maybe in for a better year in year 2. We improved every year but it was year 4 before I was a whole lot better in the area of trust. Yeas 2 and 3 were good but not real good. Anyway, I think that if you both keep working at it that you have passed the terrible year, which is the first year.


CONGRADULATIONS on both of your improvements from last year!!!!!!


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## cpacan

Congratulations on your achievements Mrs.M, I respect your efforts and it seems to me from the outside, that you're honestly trying to understand and change your ways.

If I may add, we all have different paths and timelines, so there is really no point in comparing, but I can tell you that my first year was terrible, second year was worse, I'm at year three which is.... somewhere between hmmm... and meh...

Take care and enjoy your time together - especially with the kids.


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## soulpotato

Did the talk go badly, DG?


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## daisygirl 41

soulpotato said:


> Did the talk go badly, DG?


Well yes and no.
Hubby has said he wants to move out after Xmas.
He's not in love with me anymore BUT
We spoke openly about how we feel and our difficulty about communication. We agreed that I take the things he says as being cold and distant and that I expect him to be a mind reader, and how he takes the things I say as being accusatory or blaming.
I asked for the link above as he has agreed to read it. Too little to late maybe but I want him to see that what we are going through, and what I am feeling is normal.
I hope he reads it.
At the moment I really don't want him to move out. Our daughter will be devastated and it will cripple us financially. He says he doesn't want anyone else and neither do I so we will see how these next couple of months will go. I'm guessing though that in the end it will be too painful for me if he remains here. I suppose part of me wants him to stay too because I'm still hoping we can work this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Mrs M, I was one if your biggest critics. Recall that I said your marriage wouldn't last 3 months. I have never been happier to be wrong. As you said, one day at a time is the best and in truth the only way forward. You have shown with actions your remorse and your determination not only to save your marriage but to heal Matt in every way possible. I've recently read Matt's thread and his attitude is very healthy now. I believe in you and I believe in Matt. Keep building for the future while ever mindful of the past and enjoy the present.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> Well yes and no.
> Hubby has said he wants to move out after Xmas.
> He's not in love with me anymore BUT
> We spoke openly about how we feel and our difficulty about communication. We agreed that I take the things he says as being cold and distant and that I expect him to be a mind reader, and how he takes the things I say as being accusatory or blaming.
> I asked for the link above as he has agreed to read it. Too little to late maybe but I want him to see that what we are going through, and what I am feeling is normal.
> I hope he reads it.
> At the moment I really don't want him to move out. Our daughter will be devastated and it will cripple us financially. He says he doesn't want anyone else and neither do I so we will see how these next couple of months will go. I'm guessing though that in the end it will be too painful for me if he remains here. I suppose part of me wants him to stay too because I'm still hoping we can work this out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG, it takes two. You can only do what you can do. If he isn't interested in taking the appropriate steps to heal you and the marriage then there is little left to be done. If you don't mind though I'd like to continue to pray for your husband's eyes and heart to open up.


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## jupiter13

Wow been gone a few and I see that so much has been happening. I can't even begin to catch up. The one thing I noticed was the anger issue is alive and well. I am currently consumed by my anger. After returning from my step sons wedding out of state, (Yes WH son) having to sit through a church wedding where I am the only one that has a complete taped version, all the preparations leading up to it (weeks), the ex-wife even attending without notice and latching on as the only person she knows, I've suppressed my tears, I've smiled remaining calm and polite when I felt like screaming. WH clingy, crying, being so apologetic and having his own personal growth episode I just wanted to puke and there has been no escape for one peaceful moment of my own. Even returning home has been an experience of trials. The baggage carry-on handler telling me I need to check my bag as it’s too big, yeah right it meets the specified measurements, wasn’t a problem when I arrived, she needs to get another job, the airport parking that doesn’t post the daily amounts but everywhere else it’s only 10.00 a day to park and theirs is 3x that, oh well live and learn, to the cop that pulls us over giving WH a ticket for something that is clearly a fix it ticket and he lies about it too. Getting home to a house full of disasters, ruined carpet, things all messed up and dirty when I had clearly called ahead to make sure things would be in order by the time we got home. Oh and did I forget to mention the business phone has been ringing through all of this with WH giving it so much attention he can talk about nothing else with everyone he meets even those who can care less. 

So is anyone else around me having problems with this? NOPE!
Is anyone else going to do anything about any of this? NOPE!
What does anyone have to say about any of this?
SORRY…..
So who is suffering here? ONLY ME as I sit here fuming feeling sorry for myself and hating everything around me I once cared about. I know this is only a temporary feeling at the moment but there still is an undercurrent that I am carrying with me. Somehow all of us who deal with this issue have to get through it, set fire to it, resolve it or let it go. This undercurrent with time will eat your soul, feed the bitterness in your heart and you will become a miserable person no one wants to be around or know.
Sorry To be so off tonight and venting a bit myself.


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## daisygirl 41

bfree said:


> DG, it takes two. You can only do what you can do. If he isn't interested in taking the appropriate steps to heal you and the marriage then there is little left to be done. If you don't mind though I'd like to continue to pray for your husband's eyes and heart to open up.


I appreciate it bfree.
I realise I have to let it go, it's out of my hands now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

daisygirl 41 said:


> Well yes and no.
> Hubby has said he wants to move out after Xmas.
> *He's not in love with me anymore *BUT
> We spoke openly about how we feel and our difficulty about communication. We agreed that I take the things he says as being cold and distant and that I expect him to be a mind reader, and how he takes the things I say as being accusatory or blaming.
> I asked for the link above as he has agreed to read it. Too little to late maybe but I want him to see that what we are going through, and what I am feeling is normal.
> I hope he reads it.
> At the moment I really don't want him to move out. Our daughter will be devastated and it will cripple us financially. *He says he doesn't want anyone else and neither do I *so we will see how these next couple of months will go. I'm guessing though that in the end it will be too painful for me if he remains here. I suppose part of me wants him to stay too because I'm still hoping we can work this out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG, if the above is the core of his disconnection issues right now, then I think you have something to work with. I agree with bfree - NC it absolutely essential at this point for both of you to progress.

But if he is really dwelling on the "I'm not in love with you" bit, then you both should really read the Harley's books, especially His Needs, Her Needs and Surviving an Affair. Their point is that romantic love is CONDITIONAL and can and should be deliberately cultivated in a relationship. If that is gone right now, it CAN be renewed. Each of you is responsible for creating the conditions for the other to be in love by consistently meeting their most important emotional needs, and avoiding things that are love busters. He is responsible for creating the way for you to be in love with him, and you are responsible for doing that for him.

The rub of it is that each of you have to be open to what the other is offering. I can meet every one of Matt's needs and he can meet mine, but if one of us closes the door on accepting those love deposits, then it doesn't matter. So I encourage you to both look at what you are doing for each other and if you are each open to the efforts the other is making. 

On the BS end, being responsible for creating conditions for the WS to feel love often adds to the feeling of unfairness in the whole situation, and a common theme at TAM is for the WS to do the "heavy lifting". That must be done by the WS in terms of owning the affair and taking the steps necessary to understand the cause, protect the vulnerabilities, and demonstrate a prevention plan in order to rebuild trust and a sense of safety for the BS. But if a reconciliation is going to occur, the BS has to contribute to rebuilding the relationship as well. It's not rewarding the WS for cheating, or trying to make sure they don't cheat again by showing love - it's the only way to build a mutually enjoyable relationship and move forward into a positive future.

I know it's exhausting to work through this process. But if BOTH of you really want each other, you CAN find a way back to feeling in love. For some, this process is difficult because it takes the "magic" out of being in love, but for me, it gives me so much hope because it helps me understand why we fell in love in the first place, and it gives me a sense of purpose and direction over the contributions and efforts I make in our relationship and understanding what will resonate with Matt. 

Good luck. I hope the two of you can make your time before Christmas count for your relationship, and not just waiting for inevitable separation. Take care of yourself and I hope he shows you he can and will make the effort to deserve all you are offering him.


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## Rookie4

DG, MM and others. The single most important issue in reconciliation is that the BS, must have, at least, some residual love and attraction for the WS. You can't re-start a fire if all the fuel is used up. Sweetie and I tried, and I think most long term posters would agree that we tried about as hard as anyone could. But the bottom line is that I am no longer in love with her. Then, the most positive thing you can do is to part without rancor.
The last night Sweetie and I spent together, I told her that I completely forgave her for her affair, that I will always cherish the good years we had together, and that I respected and valued her a a person, and my dearest friend. Sometimes the best you can do, isn't enough. Accepting this is also a positive thing.


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> DG, MM and others. The single most important issue in reconciliation is that the BS, must have, at least, some residual love and attraction for the WS. You can't re-start a fire if all the fuel is used up. Sweetie and I tried, and I think most long term posters would agree that we tried about as hard as anyone could. But the bottom line is that I am no longer in love with her. Then, the most positive thing you can do is to part without rancor.
> The last night Sweetie and I spent together, I told her that I completely forgave her for her affair, that I will always cherish the good years we had together, and that I respected and valued her a a person, and my dearest friend. Sometimes the best you can do, isn't enough. Accepting this is also a positive thing.


Rookie,

I'd like to ask a question but I am concerned it will seem as if I am rubbing salt in the wound and bringing up unpleasant memories. But being me I'll ask it just the same. Ignore if it is too difficult to address.

You and I had a long discussion some time ago about the merits and drawbacks of separation when it comes to healing from infidelity. At the time you and Sweetie were on the path toward reconciliation and you maintained that without the separation for two years you wouldn't have healed enough to get back together. I maintained that separation doesn't usually work because some of the biggest issues need to be tackled together in order to work through them and come out the other side a truly healed and stronger couple. Given your statement above would you say that the separation may have had positive benefits for you individually but was a detriment to healing you both as a couple?


----------



## happyman64

Rookie4 said:


> DG, MM and others. The single most important issue in reconciliation is that the BS, must have, at least, some residual love and attraction for the WS. You can't re-start a fire if all the fuel is used up. Sweetie and I tried, and I think most long term posters would agree that we tried about as hard as anyone could. But the bottom line is that I am no longer in love with her. Then, the most positive thing you can do is to part without rancor.
> The last night Sweetie and I spent together, I told her that I completely forgave her for her affair, that I will always cherish the good years we had together, and that I respected and valued her a a person, and my dearest friend. Sometimes the best you can do, isn't enough. Accepting this is also a positive thing.


I have a question to Rookie.

How does Sweetie feel now?


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## CantSitStill

Bfree you question to Rookie is confusing to me lol..oh well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



CantSitStill said:


> Bfree you question to Rookie is confusing to me lol..oh well
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When we discussed the merits and pitfalls of separation rookie communicated that he felt that his separation from Sweetie prepared them for reconciliation and he recommended that separation might be beneficial for more couples after infidelity. I maintained that in most instances the problems after infidelity required that couples stay together to work on them as a team. Furthermore I felt that it was imperative for couples to stay together so that the WS can help the BS heal and begin to rebuild the trust that was lost. I was wondering if rookie now felt that the separation he had with Sweetie might have helped him heal individually but might have introduced such a detachment that prevented their relationship from being healed as well. I'm just wondering that if he felt in hindsight had he and Sweetie stayed together could their marriage have been saved.


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## bfree

Another way of looking at it. If I get sick I can take two paths. One path has me using antibiotics to help push the recovery along but may in the end cause antibiotics not to work as well for future illnesses. The other path has me allowing the sickness to run it's course while I support my overall health with nutrition and rest. Both methods will work. One may be slightly more difficult in the short run but more rewarding for the future.


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## calvin

Yeah,much better to work on issues together,I don't think seperation helps much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

So in other words...seperating would be avoiding the real issues till one day it all blows up..kinda like taking a pill to avoid symptoms rather than doing what you need to get rid of the illness. Like for instance...cholesterol pills. Gotta change your diet and excersize. I'm rambling again...sirens going off right now. Tornado about to come and I'm sitting here typing lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> When we discussed the merits and pitfalls of separation rookie communicated that he felt that his separation from Sweetie prepared them for reconciliation and he recommended that separation might be beneficial for more couples after infidelity. I maintained that in most instances the problems after infidelity required that couples stay together to work on them as a team. Furthermore I felt that it was imperative for couples to stay together so that the WS can help the BS heal and begin to rebuild the trust that was lost. I was wondering if rookie now felt that the separation he had with Sweetie might have helped him heal individually but might have introduced such a detachment that prevented their relationship from being healed as well. I'm just wondering that if he felt in hindsight had he and Sweetie stayed together could their marriage have been saved.


This situation was the road not taken for me and RTBP. Not too long ago he was considering separating and maybe trying again later. I was afraid of something this happening, him growing detached while healing away and not wanting to bother. I'm so glad we didn't go that route and he let me help him heal at his side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> So in other words...seperating would be avoiding the real issues till one day it all blows up..kinda like taking a pill to avoid symptoms rather than doing what you need to get rid of the illness. Like for instance...cholesterol pills. Gotta change your diet and excersize. I'm rambling again...sirens going off right now. Tornado about to come and I'm sitting here typing lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The way I see it that when together the BS heals, re-bond with the WS, and start rebuilding trust. When they decided to separated the BS heals but feelings of romantic love might killed in the process and the trust is still low like it was when the two separated. I see how it can be hard for a BS to find the motivation to take that risk even with a remorseful WS doing everything right to reconcile. 

Yeah it's getting bad out there. Kind of funny that RTBP is more concerned about the game being delayed than he is about the actual storm. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Lol forever, same here with calvin. He finally did take his Bears flag down before it got too bad out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Rookie,
> 
> I'd like to ask a question but I am concerned it will seem as if I am rubbing salt in the wound and bringing up unpleasant memories. But being me I'll ask it just the same. Ignore if it is too difficult to address.
> 
> You and I had a long discussion some time ago about the merits and drawbacks of separation when it comes to healing from infidelity. At the time you and Sweetie were on the path toward reconciliation and you maintained that without the separation for two years you wouldn't have healed enough to get back together. I maintained that separation doesn't usually work because some of the biggest issues need to be tackled together in order to work through them and come out the other side a truly healed and stronger couple. Given your statement above would you say that the separation may have had positive benefits for you individually but was a detriment to healing you both as a couple?


Bfree, This is a question both Sweetie and I have asked ourselves. We have come to the conclusion (and I'm not advocating either remaining together or separation) but for us, both individually and as a couple, the separation was needed. We both had individual issues to address, before, we tried to R. She needed to work on the personal issues that lead her to be unfaithful, and I needed to work on my anger, hurt and self esteem. To do this in the same house, and to try to R at the same time was not possible. Setting aside that I was done with her in the first place, and would not have been willing, at the time , to remain together. I do think , however, that if one or the other party is unsure about whether or not to R, separation is very helpful to clear the air and focus the attention on what both parties want.


----------



## Rookie4

happyman64 said:


> I have a question to Rookie.
> 
> How does Sweetie feel now?


Unfortunately, Sweetie is sure that she is in love with me, and is very sad about the separation. She understands why I am not in love with her anymore, and realizes her responsibilities, but is willing and happy to work on a new Friendship relationship.


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## clipclop2

soulpotato said:


> Like bfree says, a person's issues follow them until they resolve or work through. Replacing the person who hurt you with a different person isn't going to fix anything, it's just going to have you carting your issues into a new relationship where you will have the same old problems with a new person, with maybe a little twist for individuality.


Ah.

Believe it or not, people can resolve problems without the WS. And they can even do it without *replacing* them. 

Even more amazing is the fact that a new person *could* enter the picture and in no way be *replacing* the WS.

I think that there is a lot of emotion getting in the way of reality and causing otherwise intelligent people to be unable to see what they don't want to see. 

This is why i think 6 months apart after infidelity is a must. You guys are fighting so hard for what you want/wish that you've lost the ability to view the world from a wider perspective. 

If you are so sure you are right, take 6 months apart and see how different you and your partner feel. 

Nobody can make good decisions when they are in such constant emotional turmoil. Stress kills. Roller coasters rides are short and thrilling because they are short and thrilling. What some of you are trying to do is simply unhealthy. 

And i said some, not all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CSS was only out of the house for a few days,I feel it should have been a little
longer but at most a couple weeks,least the scumbag tried to convince her what a
good guy he is and she did buy it hook,line and sinker.
So I'm torn about the time apart,I guess it depends on the situation.
With CSS I feel she would have gotten hurt,pretty bad.
She tends to believe people at their word and she did eat up his bs.
Glad that she sees to be more cautious with people now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

[QUOTE]By Rookie 11-17-2013
DG, MM and others. The single most important issue in reconciliation is that the BS, must have, at least, some residual love and attraction for the WS. You can't re-start a fire if all the fuel is used up. Sweetie and I tried, and I think most long term posters would agree that we tried about as hard as anyone could. *But the bottom line is that I am no longer in love with her.* Then, the most positive thing you can do is to part without rancor.

The last night Sweetie and I spent together, I told her that I completely forgave her for her affair, that I will always cherish the good years we had together, and that I respected and valued her person, and my dearest friend. Sometimes the best you can do, isn't enough. Accepting this is also a positive thing. [/QUOTE]


Rookie
I know you do not have to answer any posts to you about the R ending. However, I am gong to ask you some questions because you and your ex-wife seem to have had the R going full speed beginning about 11 months ago and for most of the year 2013. . You seemed so far ahead of many and almost all your posts about the R were encouraging. You and your ex-wife gave some on TAM hope.


 Questions:


*1	What happened that you went from loving your wife (see reprints below) to *
*“I am no longer in love with her’?*

Quote of Rookie 12-20-2013	post # 3258
B1, I understand what you and Calvin and EI are saying, I really do. *I also realize that I still love my ex wife* and that I DO want to R. What I am not sure about , is if I'm ready to commit to it. 

Quote of Rookie on 2-19-2013	post #4835
What we are doing now, is making new memories for our new love affair. Taking the time, making the effort, being excited about every day we are together. The bottom line is that both *you and Dr. M need to find out if you both possess the deep, true, love, that can make this happen, *then go out and make your own NEW memories and I think you will find that , *like me, it will push the old bad memories out of your thoughts.*


*2	According to your post reprinted below your ex-wife did everything that a WS should do to R. Did she change? Did you change?*




> Quote of Rookie	1-17-2013
> "All in?" Nope, never happen. If there is one thing this whole sorry mess has taught me, it is to put no credence in words like " trust, faith, belief, or promise,".* I am interested in words like "actions, fact, proof, and evidence". *The first 4 words are why we are in this mess, the last 4 will get us out of it.
> 
> 
> *In reference to the above post, let me say this about Sweetie. She not only talks the talk, she walks the walk. Everything she says she will do, she does and gives me proof of it.*
> She told me that she was the one who ended the affair, then gave me all of her passwords and let me read the e-mails Brad sent her, begging her to come back to him. She showed me a copy of the complaint she filed against him with her supervisors, for harrassing her. I can see all of her phone bills for the last two years if I want to. I am meeting her therapist this week and have already talked to her on the phone. She has never missed a meeting. When we divorced, she took only her property. She has admitted the affair to everybody we know and takes ALL not just part of the blame for it. It seems to me that this is a no-brainer, she is the real deal, now, and I am proud to have her as mine. And make no mistake, She IS mine and nobody elses.



*As I said you do not have to answer my questions but perhaps others can all learn from your experience if you want to share.[/*SIZE]


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## CantSitStill

I think both Rookie and Sweetie changed for the better, but that does not mean they are meant to be together. If they can't have the romanic relationship back, at least they can love and forgive eachother now as people. They also seem healthy enough to not make past mistakes if they ever get into new relationships. Just my opinion. I feel they tried hard to R, it just made them see that it isn't gonna work for them. Man I hope calvin never feels the need to break free from me  it's sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

clipclop2 said:


> Ah.
> 
> Believe it or not, people can resolve problems without the WS. And they can even do it without *replacing* them.
> 
> Even more amazing is the fact that a new person *could* enter the picture and in no way be *replacing* the WS.
> 
> I think that there is a lot of emotion getting in the way of reality and causing otherwise intelligent people to be unable to see what they don't want to see.
> 
> This is why i think 6 months apart after infidelity is a must. You guys are fighting so hard for what you want/wish that you've lost the ability to view the world from a wider perspective.
> 
> If you are so sure you are right, take 6 months apart and see how different you and your partner feel.
> 
> Nobody can make good decisions when they are in such constant emotional turmoil. Stress kills. Roller coasters rides are short and thrilling because they are short and thrilling. What some of you are trying to do is simply unhealthy.
> 
> And i said some, not all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uh, my partner and I were separated for a year and a half and living apart for a year (and still are while we sort out some logistical issues). I don't think it's always necessary to go through that separation before attempting to reconcile, but I feel it depends on each couple/situation. 

Why do you assume the BS will heal so much better without the WS' help, or even just completely moving on? I think you're misunderstanding my meaning, here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

To me, The R doesn't start til you live together. If you can't be with your WS, then leave but get yourself some good therapy because leaving does not take away the anger, hurt, betrayal.. ect
..Learning to forgive even if you leave your spouse takes alot of courage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

I can forgjve others but still feel appalled when I look back. I can't forgjve myself. but I can change to a better person that I someday will like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

CSS, a couple can be living separately yet still be in R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

I can't forgive myself either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## user_zero

from what I've seen, I believe that 'separation' and 'staying together' are both have ups and downs.

one of main triggers of BS is the WS themselves. on other hand staying together makes sure the BS knows where their WS is all the time. separation might not be possible in all situations due to financial reasons or not having any close family or friend. separation or staying together both can be good or bad for the kids depending on their age , parents' behavior toward each other and family history. WS doesn't know how to handle triggers. BS doesn't know what he/she wants (keeps going back and forth). in separation they don't have sex obviously which in itself could be good or bad depending on the type of affair, triggers , ...

what I'm trying to say is that simply being separated or staying together doesn't help the spouses. doesn't improve the marriage. in both paths/phases both of spouses should act. should decide what they want. and be willing to the do what's necessary.
------------------------------------------------------
personally I would suggest a short separation if any. and the choice to staying together should not be forced in any way. that is , if both of spouses want to stay married.


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## user_zero

double post , sorry


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## user_zero

CantSitStill said:


> I can forgjve others but still feel appalled when I look back. I can't forgjve myself. but I can change to a better person that I someday will like.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


css, soulpotato, I read something in somewhere that might be helpful, somehow.

To receive forgiveness from God there are three requirements:

-Recognizing the offense itself and its admission before God.
-Making a commitment not to repeat the offense.
-Asking for forgiveness from God.

If the offense was committed against another human being, or against society, a fourth condition is added:

-Recognizing the offense before those against whom offense was committed and before God.
-Committing oneself not to repeat the offense.
-Doing whatever needs to be done to rectify the offense (within reason) and asking pardon of the offended party.
-Asking God for forgiveness.


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> I can't forgive myself either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here. Or at least I don't see me forgiving myself anytime soon
_Posted via Mobile Device_.


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## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> [QUOTE]By Rookie 11-17-2013
> DG, MM and others. The single most important issue in reconciliation is that the BS, must have, at least, some residual love and attraction for the WS. You can't re-start a fire if all the fuel is used up. Sweetie and I tried, and I think most long term posters would agree that we tried about as hard as anyone could. *But the bottom line is that I am no longer in love with her.* Then, the most positive thing you can do is to part without rancor.
> 
> The last night Sweetie and I spent together, I told her that I completely forgave her for her affair, that I will always cherish the good years we had together, and that I respected and valued her person, and my dearest friend. Sometimes the best you can do, isn't enough. Accepting this is also a positive thing.





Rookie
I know you do not have to answer any posts to you about the R ending. However, I am gong to ask you some questions because you and your ex-wife seem to have had the R going full speed beginning about 11 months ago and for most of the year 2013. . You seemed so far ahead of many and almost all your posts about the R were encouraging. You and your ex-wife gave some on TAM hope.


 Questions:


*1	What happened that you went from loving your wife (see reprints below) to *
*“I am no longer in love with her’?*

Quote of Rookie 12-20-2013	post # 3258
B1, I understand what you and Calvin and EI are saying, I really do. *I also realize that I still love my ex wife* and that I DO want to R. What I am not sure about , is if I'm ready to commit to it. 

Quote of Rookie on 2-19-2013	post #4835
What we are doing now, is making new memories for our new love affair. Taking the time, making the effort, being excited about every day we are together. The bottom line is that both *you and Dr. M need to find out if you both possess the deep, true, love, that can make this happen, *then go out and make your own NEW memories and I think you will find that , *like me, it will push the old bad memories out of your thoughts.*


*2	According to your post reprinted below your ex-wife did everything that a WS should do to R. Did she change? Did you change?*





*As I said you do not have to answer my questions but perhaps others can all learn from your experience if you want to share.[/*SIZE][/QUOTE]Not at all, Mr. Blunt. I have no objection to answering some questions. When I stated that I loved my ex wife, I meant it to be "in love" and because we were in the Hysterical bonding stage, it felt like that was true. It was only after the passing of time that I realized that I did not have the strength of feeling for her, that she did for me. As for the rest, I will always love and yes, even admire my ex wife and her growth as a person. I told her recently that I will always be her biggest fan, and I mean that. But as we all know, platonic love is far different from romantic love and desire. She has that for me, but I simply do not for her. Like CSS said, we tried and we both have grown as persons, but that in itself doesn't imply that we belong together. The last 3 years have been hard, but we have both emerged from the darkness as better people. I happen to think that this is a major accomplishment for us both.


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## daisygirl 41

Mrs_Mathias said:


> DG, if the above is the core of his disconnection issues right now, then I think you have something to work with. I agree with bfree - NC it absolutely essential at this point for both of you to progress.
> 
> But if he is really dwelling on the "I'm not in love with you" bit, then you both should really read the Harley's books, especially His Needs, Her Needs and Surviving an Affair. Their point is that romantic love is CONDITIONAL and can and should be deliberately cultivated in a relationship. If that is gone right now, it CAN be renewed. Each of you is responsible for creating the conditions for the other to be in love by consistently meeting their most important emotional needs, and avoiding things that are love busters. He is responsible for creating the way for you to be in love with him, and you are responsible for doing that for him.
> 
> The rub of it is that each of you have to be open to what the other is offering. I can meet every one of Matt's needs and he can meet mine, but if one of us closes the door on accepting those love deposits, thean it doesn't matter. So I encourage you to both look at what you are doing for each other and if you are each open to the efforts the other is making.
> 
> On the BS end, being responsible for creating conditions for the WS to feel love often adds to the feeling of unfairness in the whole situation, and a common theme at TAM is for the WS to do the "heavy lifting". That must be done by the WS in terms of owning the affair and taking the steps necessary to understand the cause, protect the vulnerabilities, and demonstrate a prevention plan in order to rebuild trust and a sense of safety for the BS. But if a reconciliation is going to occur, the BS has to contribute to rebuilding the relationship as well. It's not rewarding the WS for cheating, or trying to make sure they don't cheat again by showing love - it's the only way to build a mutually enjoyable relationship and move forward into a positive future.
> 
> I know it's exhausting to work through this process. But if BOTH of you really want each other, you CAN find a way back to feeling in love. For some, this process is difficult because it takes the "magic" out of being in love, but for me, it gives me so much hope because it helps me understand why we fell in love in the first place, and it gives me a sense of purpose and direction over the contributions and efforts I make in our relationship and understanding what will resonate with Matt.
> 
> Good luck. I hope the two of you can make your time before Christmas count for your relationship, and not just waiting for inevitable separation. Take care of yourself and I hope he shows you he can and will make the effort to deserve all you are offering him.


Mrs M
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. The problem is that my husband doesn't want to try. He's zoned out of the marriage.
Looking back this last 10 months the signs have been there. The first year back together was a good year but something changed in the both of us. Yes we had a good summer, and the more time we spend together the better we are, but I admit, the trust is gone and as much as I love him, I'll never feel that I can let my guard down completely again. As far as he is concerned? Well he feels guilty, I know that, Nita's he said he just doesn't feel the same way anymore. 

The past week has been ok. We are getting on ok, we are friends, and at the moment that's alright. I'm not ready for him to take the next step of moving out, I don't want to think about that so I'm jus taking it a day at a time, implementing 'my' 180 and trying to detach in a way that isn't going to hurt anyone.

I'm hoping this isn't the calm before the storm, I am a very emotional person and I'm hoping my breakdown isn't around the corner.
Anyway lots to look forward to. I'm going on a shopping/spa weekend with my girlfriends the last weekend in November so focusing on that. I'm trying my best to stay positive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

In response to a now locked thread, "So why do cheaters cheat..."

EI tried to convey why she did it, she gave her reasons but then she was attacked, as usual. 
Here is my response to that thread. For those that do not know I am B1, EI's husband, if anyone knows the reason better than her it would be me. 



*So, why do cheaters cheat..or for me, why did EI cheat....*


That's an easy answer for me. Since I was the BS and know exactly what I did to my wife, EI.

Here is EI's reason, note I did not say excuse or justification, it's her reason. Everyone has one, for everything we do there is a reason. EI will be the first to tell you it's not an excuse, only a reason. I hope I got my point across so no one starts responding with the typical, it's an excuse blah..blah..blah..

I severely neglected my wife. For years I, for the most part, refused sex, love, hugs, kissing, and communications. EI told me repeatedly she could not live this way, she needed a partner, a husband. I said basically go F-yourself. I was angry, depressed, suffering from low-T and at rock bottom. She made MC and IC appointments, doctor appointments for me, I usually cancelled them and if I did go it was a half heartead attempt. She tried seducing me on a number of occasions, I turned her down every single time. She, again, said she couldn't live like this. She eventually moved to the couch and I was happy about that because then I wouldn't have to worry about her trying to have sex with me any more. This went on for NOT days or weeks but several years, her trying....and me ignoring and worse, saying hurtful things to her too about her body and her needs.

I could write a 100 page book on all the right things EI tried to do to get me on board but I don't have the time or energy, plus for so many on here it won't make any difference any way. This isn't for the Headspins of TAM, it's for the potential BS's and WS's out there. It's for those that really want to know "why". In our case it was neglect, physical and emotional neglect that lasted for many many years. 

I am ashamed of how I treated her, she is a good person, a very loving and kind person, who did not deserve to be neglected and humiliated like she was. Yes, I said mean things about her around friends, things that were humiliating to her. She gave and gave her love, she was always trying to be a wife to me but I basically didn't want one, it just annoyed me then. Like I said I'm ashamed of myself for this. She didn't deserve it.

And no, I didn't deserve to be cheated on either, She had no right to do what she did. All of what I just said was not an excuse to cheat. I know it and EI does too. But those are the facts, those are the reasons as to why she did it. That's what broke her, neglect. Perhaps others are stronger and would not have broke, good for them, EI did and that's our story, that's our truth. Like it or not.

EI in her responses here was simply trying to convey her reason. NOT an excuse, though many on here try to turn reasons into excuses, not EI or me. We know it's not an excuse. The OP wanted to hear why cheaters cheat, EI, being the kind person she is, was thinking that her response could help another ws or bs. That a big reason why she still posts here. She cares and wants to stop a potential WS from making the same horrible choice she did. EI suffers every day from her choice. I brought her vegetable soup recently, she loves it from a certain mom and pop store. She looked hurt when I surprised her with it, I asked her what's wrong...she simply said, I don't deserve it. That's how she feels most days, undeserving of anything good because of what she did.


She desperately wants to stop a person from becoming a future WS or BS. 


Someone on that thread posted about, or alluded to, seeing the "real" EI. No one on here has seen the real EI, not even close. I am her husband of almost 30 years. I have seen her and she is a good person with a heart of gold, she is giving, loving and caring. She made a horrible choice over 2 years ago that devastated her and our family. That choice didn't erase who she was, or who she is today. That choice was, at the time, selfish, but that is the last thing EI is today or pre-A. I know this so do not pretend to say otherwise, it's not up for debate. No one knows what sacrifices she has made in life to help others, there are many life changing acts we did to help others. A single bad choice does not define a person. For EI, her affair was out of character, and it wasn't who she "really" was.


You all only know this part of her and judge her accordingly. There is another roughly 28 years of our marriage that you don't know about. You see only this one destructive piece and assume that EI is a bad person. Sorry to rock your world, but EI isn't a bad person. She isn't a bad person who did some good things, she is a good person who did some bad things. Like all of us, we have all done some bad in life. Luckily for most of us it's not posted on an open forum to be judged by those that ONLY see that bad part.


I love my wife, and I forgive her because I really do know the "REAL" EI and she is amazing.



Our reconciliation is going well, I still struggle from time to time but EI is ALWAYS there with answers, help, love and understanding.

She is still hurting too, from what I did and what she did. She cannot forgive herself yet. My hope is she will someday soon because she deserves a happy life. Our marriage pre-A was a train wreck, a disaster. Now it's a real marriage with love, communication and intimacy. I am taking T-shots now and we went to both MC and IC. The reality of our story is that we are both good people who did some very bad things. We were lost and at rock bottom then. Thank God, not anymore, we have climbed out of that dark pit and are building a new life together and it's wonderful.

B1 out...
and as usual probably for a very long time. I don't come here much at all anymore, I do better staying away. But I love EI and she deserves defending. I don't want this to be the new topic of this thread, but I felt strongly this needed to be put out there.


----------



## user_zero

B1 said:


> In response to a now locked thread, "So why do cheaters cheat..."


I think this is a response to my post. and I'm writing this with that assumption.

first let me say I apologize to you(B1) and EI for being harsh and rude on that thread. it is true that I could said the same things a lot nicer and I didn't. for that I'm sorry, truly. I should have been better than that. 

but B1 what you posted here doesn't nullify my post. in fact it confirms it. you posted that you and EI are 2 years in reconciliation. your marriage is a lot better. you have your bad moments. and EI still have guilt and pain.
in fact from her posts I can see that she has the same guilt/pain she had since day1 in reconciliation. now please EI confirm this for B1. and if it's not true , then please don't read the rest. it would be a waste of time.

my point is whatever she is doing , isn't helping her reconcile with herself.
I'm guessing her mindset from her posts. almost every time she posts about her decision to have an affair , she follows it up with the bad conditions of her marriage at that point. now I'm not denying the bad state of marriage. I don't have any right to deny that. but my point is when she keeps going to 'reasons' for her choice instead of focusing on the choice itself, she would not be able to fully own it. therefore she can't move on. her pain hasn't become less, not even a little. if it could work , it would work already (after 2 years). 
the only way I know and I suggest this to her is to start saying "I cheated in my marriage" inside her head without letting her mind run off to the conditions of marriage or any other "understandable reasons". to accept her choice as her choice without any resistance. it would make her feel bad at first, but in time it would help her a lot.

whatever you choose , EI , I wish you good luck.


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## happyman64

Ah B1 if you do not get lucky tonight after that long defense of EI......

All I will say is make tonight's "T" shot a double. 

But on a serious note just the fact that both you and EI are here, over coming your issues together and helping so many BS's and WS's by sharing your story.

Well.

That shows all of us that care who you two really are.

Don't leave TAM for too long. I understand why. But there are those that will listen and hopefully learn from your wise voice.

Respectfully,

HM

P.S.
I also think this thread is by far the largest thread on a TAM.
There is a reason for that B1. And you and EI are that very reason.
Peace.


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## bfree

Did I even post in that thread? Hmmm. I know EI doesn't post much on TAM and even less outside of this thread specifically because she tries to be honest so that people can learn from her and B1's past and present. Unfortunately it also means that some posters can take offense with her words because let's face it sometimes the truth does indeed hurt. I will disagree with EI and frankly any poster on TAM if I feel its warranted but I love the posters in this thread too much to ever be disrespectful. I have many books on relationships and infidelity but I think I have learned more in this thread than I have from anywhere else except from Beowulf and Morrigan themselves. B1 you are right to defend your lady and I applaud you wholeheartedly. And EI, never lose that honest streak. We have too many fakers on this planet as it is. We need more people who tell it like it is with an unvarnished truth.


----------



## B1

user_zero said:


> I think this is a response to my post. and I'm writing this with that assumption.
> 
> first let me say I apologize to you(B1) and EI for being harsh and rude on that thread. it is true that I could said the same things a lot nicer and I didn't. for that I'm sorry, truly. I should have been better than that.
> 
> but B1 what you posted here doesn't nullify my post. in fact it confirms it. you posted that you and EI are 2 years in reconciliation. your marriage is a lot better. you have your bad moments. and EI still have guilt and pain.
> in fact from her posts I can see that she has the same guilt/pain she had since day1 in reconciliation. now please EI confirm this for B1. and if it's not true , then please don't read the rest. it would be a waste of time.
> 
> my point is whatever she is doing , isn't helping her reconcile with herself.
> I'm guessing her mindset from her posts. almost every time she posts about her decision to have an affair , she follows it up with the bad conditions of her marriage at that point. now I'm not denying the bad state of marriage. I don't have any right to deny that. but my point is when she keeps going to 'reasons' for her choice instead of focusing on the choice itself, she would not be able to fully own it. therefore she can't move on. her pain hasn't become less, not even a little. if it could work , it would work already (after 2 years).
> the only way I know and I suggest this to her is to start saying "I cheated in my marriage" inside her head without letting her mind run off to the conditions of marriage or any other "understandable reasons". to accept her choice as her choice without any resistance. it would make her feel bad at first, but in time it would help her a lot.
> 
> whatever you choose , EI , I wish you good luck.



User zero, it's ok...honestly, I don't know who I was responding to exactly, just that EI was trying to answer a simple but deadly question and as usual it turns out bad. Notice though, that the op of the thread never got much of an answer, what ws in their right mind would dare answer the question? OK, EI would and a few others tried. Everyone quickly gets drowned out though by the bashers. I'm not saying you were even one of them. 

EI was responding to the OP of the thread who wanted to know why WS's cheat. EI didn't start a thread about why or the reasons people cheat. She was simply responding to a question. I understand your point. However, EI is fully aware of her choice, no excuses. She specifically posts about this subject for one reason, NOT to justify what she did, but to hopefully reach someone in her shoes before they have an A or, perhaps reach a BS that's behaving the way I did. So, we tell the reasons, or better yet we tell what was happening in our marriage prior to and during the affair. Our hopes are to reach someone before they reach the BS or WS status.

She wants to stop affairs because she is very aware of the damage to the spouse, the family and herself. Her reasoning is thrown out there because it's relevant, for us, to the subject. They are what another spouse pre-A could be going through and she wants to tell them; Don't do it, it's not worth it. She and I give reasons because we feel it's necessary to reach others, not to justify what she did, plus, it's just our story.

You do have a very valid point about EI not being able to forgive herself. She is struggling so much with her choice. It's eating her up. It's not because she has a supposed valid reason and is sticking to it, it's because it's not who she is, it's something she cannot take back or make ok. She knows the intense hurt it has caused and that no reason justifies it. Although she feels that it is still important to understand the reasons.

I made a comment recently to EI about BS's and neglecting their spouse and that leading to an affair..she stopped me and said NO, that puts the blame on the BS and the BS is NEVER to blame for an affair. This really opened my eyes to her really getting it..all the reason stuff simply comes from those wanting to know why, or wanting to understand a WS. She bravely tries to answer them which usually turns out badly for her. And the OP never really gets an answer because others jump in to bash the WS who dared to answer the question.

It's nuts if you ask me. The OP asks the all too familiar question, why do they cheat, it's almost like bait. Then the predators sit back and wait for a daring WS to answer, then pounce. The OP never gets their answers though because the thread just turns into a ws bashing. When what the OP presumably really wanted to know is what were the reasons that a cheater used to justify their cheating to themselves. They, for whatever reason, want insight, perhaps to understand their own WS, perhaps they are thinking about cheating, who knows, but in the end it's always the same old thing, bash the WS's, insist they are all the same low-down, worthless people, not deserving of even spending a holiday with their children (per Headspin.) 

If a ws answers the why do they cheat question, how should they respond...other than with "I was a bad person," then end the post? The only thing that some will accept is just that. But the fact is EI is not a bad person, I'm married to her, I know. The reality is some on TAM want her to be a bad person, this person who is beneath them. Ok, to some she will always be a bad person and beneath them, so....move on with life. To me and our children she is a wonderful wife and mom who is forgiven and we are moving on our with life.

Anyway, no hard feelings on my end user zero, we may have to agree to disagree or something like that and that's perfectly fine with me. 

B1 out, yet again


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> Uh, my partner and I were separated for a year and a half and living apart for a year (and still are while we sort out some logistical issues). I don't think it's always necessary to go through that separation before attempting to reconcile, but I feel it depends on each couple/situation.
> 
> Why do you assume the BS will heal so much better without the WS' help, or even just completely moving on? I think you're misunderstanding my meaning, here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I've stated my case fairly clearly already. 

In particular I was responding to they should just change that the reason Joe's reconciliation has sales is because of Joe. 

Some of me thinks that this thread is in part a backlash against the people who think the wayward is the s*** of the earth. And I realize that you have to band together in order to support one another because there isn't that much support for reconciliation out there. But I'd also like to suggest the insular nature of this thread has promoted its own brand of dogma.


----------



## pidge70

clipclop2 said:


> I think I've stated my case fairly clearly already.
> 
> In particular I was responding to they should just change that the reason Joe's reconciliation has sales is because of Joe.
> 
> Some of me thinks that this thread is in part a backlash against the people who think the wayward is the s*** of the earth. And I realize that you have to band together in order to support one another because there isn't that much support for reconciliation out there. But I'd also like to suggest the insular nature of this thread has promoted its own brand of dogma.


I don't understand why you post on this thread. 

To answer your question, yes, Joe had anger issues before my A. He explained about that much earlier in this thread, Joe has pretty much always dealt with anger in an unhealthy way. He likes to break things when he is mad. Not saying I deal with my anger in a healthy way but, I am trying.

What's funny is, Joe had a thread in the beginning entitled, "In My Own Way", unfortunately he deleted it. 

I'm also not sure if you realize Joe had a revenge A. That is classic Joe way of dealing with things. 

Joe is a good man. I know this, and I am grateful we are still together. We will get there. There is love between us and as of the 10th of this month, there are 19yrs of us.

I am not in any way trying to justify what I did but, we will deal with our R on our terms, not how someone else thinks we should have done it.


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## CantSitStill

This is why I don't answer threads like that. I was selfish, went thru a selfish phase. I also really believe that I was having a mid life crisis. Am I blaming calvin for my EA. No. Did I blame him before, yes. I did, I admit it. I am not that person anymore and will never allow myself to be that person. Do the BS' deserve to be cheated on? Never...k I'm not gonna go on anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

pidge70 said:


> I don't understand why you post on this thread.
> 
> To answer your question, yes, Joe had anger issues before my A. He explained about that much earlier in this thread, Joe has pretty much always dealt with anger in an unhealthy way. He likes to break things when he is mad. Not saying I deal with my anger in a healthy way but, I am trying.
> 
> What's funny is, Joe had a thread in the beginning entitled, "In My Own Way", unfortunately he deleted it.
> 
> I'm also not sure if you realize Joe had a revenge A. That is classic Joe way of dealing with things.
> 
> Joe is a good man. I know this, and I am grateful we are still together. We will get there. There is love between us and as of the 10th of this month, there are 19yrs of us.
> 
> I am not in any way trying to justify what I did but, we will deal with our R on our terms, not how someone else thinks we should have done it.


 Pidge is a good woman who has worked hard on herself,she's got issues,so does joe,so do I and CSS.
A lot of people here have issues,the ones that stand out are the ones who admit it and work on it.
I see a quite a few people here working their ass of to become better.
Myself included.
Battles are won and lost inside ourselves but most of us won't give up or in.
Not until we finally make it.
Its a hard fight,some are hanging by their nails but their still hanging.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Yeah I pretty much just stick to this thread now. And if I do venture out I pretty much just skip the rest of CWI.

I go on first business trip tomorrow. Just 2 days. Not far, just St. Louis so going to drive. And since a certain someone can afford to miss a couple of classes I'll have someone to keep me company on the road and when I'm off the clock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Oh Calvin....so much for you and RTBP thinking I'm bad luck, I watched the most of the Bears game yesterday so there! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

*



By B1
But I love EI and she deserves defending.

Click to expand...

**It is very obvious that you love EI and you did a great job (again) of defending her.*




*



By B1
She desperately wants to stop a person from becoming a future WS or BS.

Click to expand...

**If anyone has read EI for the last year you will know without a doubt that what B1 said above is 100% true*


*



By B1
You do have a very valid point about EI not being able to forgive herself.

Click to expand...

**If B1 and EI say that then for me it is true. However, that is a matter between EI and God and not any TAM poster with their opinion. *



From what I have read about BI and EI they have suffered a LOT of crisis and some have nothing to do with infidelity. This married couple has weathered storms that most would crumble under. From my reading the “Coping with Infidelity” (CWI) thread it appears to me that we do not have many couples doing as good in their R as B1 and EI. 

I for one would like to say that of all the R threads that I have read on CWI, the most encouraging and admirable is B1 and EI!! Some of the reasons that I say that are that EI is so honest, open, remorseful, persevering in doing the heavy lifting in the mist of pain, and so caring. 

As for B1, there are so many things that I could say but I am going to just say a few. B1 and Wazza have the best BS attitude that I have ever read on TAM. B1 is taking his ups and downs and persevering in improving his life and giving to his whole family. So far I have not read any post on TAM that shows as much forgiveness and love for the WS as B1 has posted.

B1 and EI deserve a lot of credit for sharing their story with us all. We are very lucky that they still post on TAM. I have seen people leave TAM for being attacked with attacks less hurtful that what EI has endured. This thread “reconciliation” was started by B1 and has been a great help to many because of B! and EI’s posts. Of course there are others that have helped also but I do think we need to realize that this thread is probably one of the most or the most helpful threads on TAM regarding infidelity. With over 10,600 posts (and still going) the facts speak for themselves!


What I see so far is a couple that is on the road to defeating the devastation that infidelity does. Here at TAM we are in very short supply of such winning couples as B1 and EI so I would encourage posters to look at what B1 and EI has done this last 17 months and consider some of their actions. *My father told me a long time ago to follow people’s actions that make for winners or are winning and to forget all the great philosophical words coming from those that are not winning. *


*BI and EI are winning!!!!*


----------



## Rookie4

B1's post enumerates one of the main reasons that Sweetie never came on to TAM. I do not believe that WS's who come to this thread should be treated any different than anyone else. While I understand B1 and his desire to defend EI, (and even though both B1 and EI know that I am one of their biggest boosters) I feel that any WS should be adult enough to face those who question their past behavior, as long as the posters remain polite. There have been some posters who post questions that may be difficult to answer, or bring up points that might be unpleasant to hear, but if TAM is to be a true agent for personal growth , then all should be able to voice their POV's. When I first came to the R thread, I browsed some of the past pages, and I didn't see where EI was personally insulted, and IDK who these posters were, but it seems to me that we all should check our egos at the door, when venturing into such volatile territory as the R thread.


----------



## cpacan

clipclop2 said:


> I think I've stated my case fairly clearly already.
> 
> In particular I was responding to they should just change that the reason Joe's reconciliation has sales is because of Joe.
> 
> Some of me thinks that this thread is in part a backlash against the people who think the wayward is the s*** of the earth. And I realize that you have to band together in order to support one another because there isn't that much support for reconciliation out there. But I'd also like to suggest the insular nature of this thread has promoted its own brand of dogma.


I don't mind being part of a dogma if the dogma is to treat each other with respect. You can offer different perspectives in this thread without being mean or demeaning to fellow fighters. I don't always understand the logic of all the people in posting in this thread either, but I try hard to, and I try to offer my perspective in a way that supports their efforts.

If one doesn't support or even understand other couples desire or effort to reconcile, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, there's plenty of threads out there that support that line of thinking.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi all
Having a tough day today, and I've been feeling so strong and positive.
Just feeling a bit lonely. I miss my hubby. He's with me in person but not in his heart and it's so sad.
Prayers please 
X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Oh Calvin....so much for you and RTBP thinking I'm bad luck, I watched the most of the Bears game yesterday so there!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Ok FG,I think you're right,I need you to watch the rest of the games with RTBP,I don't want
to jinx our shot at the playoffs.
Wear a nice tight cheerleader outfit for him and cheer on da Bears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all
> Having a tough day today, and I've been feeling so strong and positive.
> Just feeling a bit lonely. I miss my hubby. He's with me in person but not in his heart and it's so sad.
> Prayers please
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No prayers DG, but you're in my thoughts and you have my sympathy. I know exactly what it feels like to feel lonely even when you're together and the continuing wondering about what is going on in your ws' head.
Stay strong, focus on you and what you want.


----------



## soulpotato

Looks like I've missed a lot. It was frustrating that I had to do some last minute packing when the locked thread in question was heating up. I had wanted to reply to EI's post, and be there to see the responses, but I was tied up with moving my entire household (while sick, too - yay!). My cable and internet are still not hooked up, and I can't see the kitchen for the pile of boxes! 

But DS was great. She came up on a work night to help with packing what was left, then came back on the weekend to help some more and to try to take care of me (I didn't have time to rest at all, unfortunately, which is probably why I've been sick for a week now).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Oh, and UZ - I think EI gives her reasons as background info. If she doesn't, people on here will assume she cheated because "she could" or just "felt like it". Stupid but true. Not sure how anyone who has seen her even here could question her character, her remorse, or her dedication to B1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> This is why I don't answer threads like that. I was selfish, went thru a selfish phase. I also really believe that I was having a mid life crisis. Am I blaming calvin for my EA. No. Did I blame him before, yes. I did, I admit it. I am not that person anymore and will never allow myself to be that person. Do the BS' deserve to be cheated on? Never...k I'm not gonna go on anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS, I thought about not answering it myself. But then I became too frustrated with the typical responses that certain BSs give and felt compelled to post. And there's the fact that our posts can be helpful to people. And I have a strong desire to help, as do some others. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Yeah I pretty much just stick to this thread now. And if I do venture out I pretty much just skip the rest of CWI.
> 
> I go on first business trip tomorrow. Just 2 days. Not far, just St. Louis so going to drive. And since a certain someone can afford to miss a couple of classes I'll have someone to keep me company on the road and when I'm off the clock.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel compelled to read CWI pretty regularly, though I would sometimes rather stay in the comfort and safety of the R thread. 

Good luck on the trip!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Good luck, DG.  I'll be hoping for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> I don't mind being part of a dogma if the dogma is to treat each other with respect. You can offer different perspectives in this thread without being mean or demeaning to fellow fighters. I don't always understand the logic of all the people in posting in this thread either, but I try hard to, and I try to offer my perspective in a way that supports their efforts.
> 
> If one doesn't support or even understand other couples desire or effort to reconcile, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, there's plenty of threads out there that support that line of thinking.


I think that the issue is, what constitutes support? If a poster acknowledges the WS's (or couple, for that matter) desire to reconcile, then I don't think the WS should complain too much about the semantics that are used. Again, as long as the posts are framed in polite terms. If somebody called EI or Mrs. Mathias or any other WS names, or used belittling terminology, that is over the top, but honest disagreement is , to my way of thinking , acceptable, even if forcefully presented. If all comments are presented politely, then I would think that it should be substance over form.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



pidge70 said:


> I don't understand why you post on this thread.
> 
> To answer your question, yes, Joe had anger issues before my A. He explained about that much earlier in this thread, Joe has pretty much always dealt with anger in an unhealthy way. He likes to break things when he is mad. Not saying I deal with my anger in a healthy way but, I am trying.
> 
> What's funny is, Joe had a thread in the beginning entitled, "In My Own Way", unfortunately he deleted it.
> 
> I'm also not sure if you realize Joe had a revenge A. That is classic Joe way of dealing with things.
> 
> Joe is a good man. I know this, and I am grateful we are still together. We will get there. There is love between us and as of the 10th of this month, there are 19yrs of us.
> 
> I am not in any way trying to justify what I did but, we will deal with our R on our terms, not how someone else thinks we should have done it.


Nobody is telling you how to do R. I am questioning the one way thinking on this thread. Joe is what prompted my post but it isn't about him over all. It can apply to anyone. 

My post came out garbled. 

What i meant to say is that i was responding to the idea that Joe's R was failing because of Joe and that the only way he can heal is to stay married... that all the hard work is lost without R, that replsaing (you) the WW doesn't solve everything and all that is said to support only one view of the future. 

1. He can heal without staying married. That is a fact. 

2. Everything he has learned is still learned. They don't get divided in a divorce. 
- and if he has learned he cannot tolerate the pain of R he has to listen to his heart. It is knowledge and discounting it because it precludes R is not fair or IMO, an honest assessment. 

3. The whole order idea of replacing the WW is interesting. The WW has taken on mythical powers on this thread. If the WW died in the middle of R would everyone tell Joe that he will remain forever unhealed because the WW is not there to fix his wounded soul? 

When someone comes onto TAM and describes a relationship that cycles between great love and affection and intensely negative behaviors (arguments, accusstions, throwing things, silent treatment, whatever), the OP will be encouraged to seek MC and ultimately get out if the cycling can't be resolved. The relationship has become unhealthy. 

Recovering from infidelity qualifies for the unhealthy label. Some people can work through it. They have a brand of "stuff" that allows it. But not everyone does. Remaining in the unhealthy state because they are told it is the only way to reach salvation is IMO selfish of those pushing it. I think many people who read this thread from the outside can see that the thread started with great promise but has become chock full of ideas that are now presented as truth rather than ideas. 

Like i tried to say, I understand why this thread is here. But I think the fact that it has become insular has made the broader thinking it promoted in favor of R become narrow thinking that has difficulty accepting that R isn't for everyone. 

You don't all fail if one of you chooses to D. 

I didn't know Joe had a revenge R. I am sorry you both experienced this.


----------



## clipclop2

On the WS forgiving themselves...

Without that self-forgiveness R can't succeed. Everything is tainted. It is like living with the proverbial "nice guy." once you recognize you have a NG, you ask yourself if he is telling you what you want to hear or doing what he really wants or just trying to keep peace. 

What is real? 

I don't know how you forgive yourself except by giving yourself credit for doing the right thing each and every night before you go to sleep. You can never undo the past. So you have to let go of the idea that you are making up for something. It can't be done. 

Time moves in one direction. Move with it. 

Go forth and sin no more. 

That is the ONLY thing you can do. 

A gift to the BS is to give up the idea that you can control anything. just let go. You did what you did because you wanted to. You want something different now and you are providing the care and feeding a relationship requires. You can do it more honestly if you realize the guilt keeps R at bay. It throttles it.

I will play god and grant you all immunity. ;-) Do you feel better? Thought so. 

Embrace the future. It is all you've got.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



cpacan said:


> I don't mind being part of a dogma if the dogma is to treat each other with respect.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> If one doesn't support or even understand other couples desire or effort to reconcile, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, there's plenty of threads out there that support that line of thinking.


Hmmm...

Being respectful isn't dogma. 

The last paragraph has an underlying message. Can you see what I am getting at? 

If you don't support it or *even understand it*, what? 

Go elsewhere.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all
> Having a tough day today, and I've been feeling so strong and positive.
> Just feeling a bit lonely. I miss my hubby. He's with me in person but not in his heart and it's so sad.
> Prayers please
> X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DG,

Does he know you were planning to move out before he told you he wanted to move out? 

Reason I am asking is that there is a weird psychological advantage when you are the one who decided. It hurts no matter what but there is something about being able to say "This is what I wanted. "

I remember when I was wet vaccing my flooded basement by myself after I told my now Ex I wanted a D. I first thought to call him for help as we were still living together. Then I reminded myself TIWIW and I smiled. It was what I wanted. 

Nobody wants to divorce. Most give it a lot of thought before pulling the trigger. It hurts no matter who calls the game. But being peaceful that you made the right decision helps. 

If you could have chosen a different outcome, a different behavior from your spouse you would have. 

You were there already. It is ok. You were ready to go. His willingness to go perhaps hurts more because he is the wayward. But he isn't replacing you that we know of. He just can't make it work. And neither can you. 

I am very sorry for your pain. You have friends and family. Don't isolate yourself or of some sense of failure or shame. You are a good person, perhaps too good. If that is possible....

I went on and did great. I feel blessed. You are blessed right now even though your pain clouds that fact. 

Can you list some blessings right now? You have to grieve but try to balance the grief every so often. Give yourself a present. I mean a physical present. Something to play with. The fun you have playing with it should serve as a reminder that all joy is not lost. New joy will come.


----------



## CharlieParker

B1 said:


> B1 out, yet again


Thank you. And thank you EI.


----------



## cpacan

clipclop2 said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Being respectful isn't dogma.
> 
> The last paragraph has an underlying message. Can you see what I am getting at?
> 
> If you don't support it or *even understand it*, what?
> 
> Go elsewhere.


I've read several threads on CWI forum the last two years, where the mutual respect has been almost absent, I've seen several of the R-posters commit to being respectfull. So yes, if the posters on the thread has a common belief that mutual respect should be a guideline, I consider it dogma (I did look it up to make sure it's what I meant ).

I don't think however that anyone here believe that couples should reconcile in any case or at any cost, so if that's what you meant, I don't recognize the dogma.

As for my use of the word "even", I'll use my poor english linguistic skills as an excuse. What I meant was, that I don't understand why people who don't understand, or want to understand, other hurting peoples wish to try and rebuild their broken relationships, would waste their time here - I don't believe it's usefull to anyone. 

I'm happy that it doesn't happen often, otherwise I would probably use TAM less frequently myself. And that's not what I want, I've received too much valuable support myself on this thread to just give it up.


----------



## bfree

Yeah I don't agree that posters on this thread are the reconciliation at all costs type. Sometimes it just doesn't work out but if two people want to give a full effort I'm going to do my best to help in any way I can and not throw any turds in the punch bowl.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Rookie
> I think that the issue is, what constitutes support?*


I think that support is one of the most important issues that we can do here at TAM

*I think that acknowledging the successes of WS and BS gives more support than trying to point put the failures of the WS or BS. * That is why I am again going to mention that EI and B1 have successes.

First B1 and EI have over 28 years of marriage. Secondly, they have been recovering from several different crises over the last 17 months that test people to the limits. Thirdly, EI and B1 have sacrificed their selves for the betterment of their children and one of them is a special needs child. Fourthly, B1 and EI have contributed to this TAM website and have helped many.

If people with long term successful recovery read the posts by B1 and EI, I think they would come to the conclusion that they are doing a LOT right and have a good chance at continuing the recovery.


----------



## russell28

I've learned from EI and B1 and thank them for everything they do to help people on this forum.

The main point in that thread, was a simple one.

If the BS doesn't know about what you're deciding to do, if they have no say in the decision, and if you go out of the way to deceive them about the situation, trying to pretend it doesn't exist at all. How can they be responsible for THAT choice or decision.

We agree that relationships hit snags, that people in relationships aren't always perfect and do things that mess up. The BS should own those things, and the WS should own the choice to cheat and not put ANY of it on the BS.

As Somedaydig would say.... If the WS asked if it was okay to sleep with another person, the BS would most likely say no. They would probably come up with a different solution to the problem. The WS decided to come up with a solution that didn't involve the BS and went to great lengths to hidd that from the BS.

In that thread we not only heard that people cheat because they are neglected, we heard that WS cheat because they are tall and they have high testosterone levels... and are high-wage earners. As a BS here I've heard it all, and my favorite are the ones that imply that BS are just angry because we've never had the opportunity to cheat... 

I never saw EI blame her high testosterone level or her height, and she doesn't talk about B1 as if she's given him a second chance, because he's learned his lesson.. She doesn't talk as if she's someone that has arrogance and isn't deserving of a second chance. 

The poster that claims to be remorseful in that thread, appears to enjoy tweaking people. It's clear because every third post he has to get a 'did i upset you' or 'does that make you angry' type of comment in there. 

Bottom line is are we talking 'conditions of the marriage' or 'affair', because I will take responsibility for some of the conditions of my marriage pre affair. I will take 0 responsibility for my wife deciding to go to another man and talk about our marital problems instead of coming to me. I would not have approved had she asked. When the MC asked me what the state of my marriage was prior to the affair, I told her it wasn't perfect, but it sure was better than it was while my wife was sneaking off to give herself to another man.

A BS doesn't want to hear how they contributed to a spouse sneaking off and cheating, because they know that no matter how much damage there was to the relationship, no matter how bad things were, that by having an affair, the WS was saying that you really just weren't worth the effort. They aren't trying to fix anything, they have chosen to abandon it. Any attempts they've had to fix it, telling how they want MC, IC, AnyC... they never mention that if you don't do x or y, they're going to a motel to have sex with another person.

If my wife asked if she could have a boyfriend, and I said 'yes', then I'd take some blame for her bad choice.. it would be our choice.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Man, I stay away for a few weeks and everything goes crazy here. Gonna have to play catch up again. Hope everyone is doing ok.


----------



## user_zero

russell28 said:


> I've learned from EI and B1 and thank them for everything they do to help people on this forum. .....


thank you russel28, you've just posted what I wanted to say. and in a far better way. thank you.

I just wanted to add something. I've see several times on TAM that BS posts got dismissed by other just by calling it projection. now , personally I have never done that to any poster (BS and FWS alike). and I have good reason for that.
I believe that just because some post is projection doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have any truth/value in it. it could still be useful in a way that not even the posters themselves realize it. 
I think if we have good reasons for a post being wrong, it would be more mature, proper and certainly helpful to just state our reasons. trying to call it projection and dismiss the whole thing only proves that we don't have enough information to prove that it's wrong. which in itself should make us wonder why we think it's wrong. I know calling it projection is a lot easier, but it's not the right way. and it certainly doesn't help the projector or anybody else.

I did try my best to follow this 'rule', even in the case of our not so remorseful friend. although it seems I lost it somewhere along the line.......... God, I hate that guy.


----------



## pidge70

> not throw any turds in the punch bowl



That's so gross!......:rofl:


----------



## calvin

I hope RS is banned for good this time,the arrogance was incredible
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> I hope RS is banned for good this time,the arrogance was incredible
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is he banned again? Gee, I hope I didn't do anything to cause that. :FIREdevil:


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Is he banned again? Gee, I hope I didn't do anything to cause that. :FIREdevil:


 As of yesterday he was,hope he's gone for good.That dude really rubs me the wrong way.
I tried basking in his glory and greatness,I also wish Iwas half the man he is.
What a stroke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

calvin said:


> I hope RS is banned for good this time,the arrogance was incredible
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He can't help it, high testosterone is to blame.. 

I'll miss him asking 'you mad bro?'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

russell28 said:


> He can't help it, high testosterone is to blame..
> 
> I'll miss him asking 'you mad bro?'
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 He asked that a lot didn't he?
Maybe that's what he was looking for.
Anyone that full of them selves has esteem issues.
6'2",makes loads of cash,has a big member,have to lock up your wives when he's around.
All his friends are rich with big d!cks.

I wish I was him,or at least one of his friends!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

_*BOYS*........ Behave yourselves! _ 

I'll comment later on the latest thread topic. I just can't do it right now, I'm babysitting our G-Baby. I do appreciate all of your comments. I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have and that it can be discussed here without all of the contention and obvious baiting that often occurs elsewhere on TAM. And, I would like to clarify what I said in the other thread.


----------



## calvin

EI said:


> _*BOYS*........ Behave yourselves! _
> 
> I'll comment later on the latest thread topic. I just can't do it right now, I'm babysitting our G-Baby. I do appreciate all of your comments. I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have and that it can be discussed here without all of the contention and obvious baiting that often occurs elsewhere on TAM. And, I would like to clarify what I said in the other thread.


 God I read that and went and stood in the corner,thought I was in trouble.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> I hope RS is banned for good this time,the arrogance was incredible
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just got caught up a bit and skimmed the thread in question and the other one about A's saving a marriage (wtf? :scratchhead. That guy had an incredibly ironic name.


----------



## Refuse to be played

EI said:


> _*BOYS*........ Behave yourselves! _


Yes ma'am....I'm always on my best behavior.


----------



## soulpotato

I'm so glad this thread exists. It seems like the only place on TAM where reconciliation is fully supported, and where the regular posters are respectful and helpful. Thank you B1 and EI!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I thought the now-locked thread started out with some interesting discussion. I didn't agree with everything, but it was thought-provoking. It's a shame it went downhill the way it did. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> I thought the now-locked thread started out with some interesting discussion. I didn't agree with everything, but it was thought-provoking. It's a shame it went downhill the way it did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I think it was RS,he wanted a lot of attention,well he got it.
Braggart
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> I thought the now-locked thread started out with some interesting discussion. I didn't agree with everything, but it was thought-provoking. It's a shame it went downhill the way it did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, that tends to happen wherever Remorseful Strayer gets involved.


----------



## calvin

Ahh,its nice to have CSS home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Yes ma'am....I'm always on my best behavior.


First of all, glad you decided to come back on babe. Second you are full of crap! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> I'm so glad this thread exists. It seems like the only place on TAM where reconciliation is fully supported, and where the regular posters are respectful and helpful. Thank you B1 and EI!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, sp, and everyone else who has thanked B1 and me for the "R" thread. And, you're welcome. But, B1 and I were just two of the many, many regular and even occasional posters who have made valuable contributions here. No one being any more valuable than the other. I think that, quite simply, birds of a feather flock together. I know that we've condescendingly been referred to as a "cheerleading thread," among other things. But, for every negative comment about us that I've read, I've been pleasantly surprised to see many more positive comments where some of the veteran TAMers, who have never posted on the "R" thread, refer others here as a place to receive support. 

I disagree with anyone who suggests that we unilaterally believe that all marriages can or should be saved at any cost. I'm not even sure that "we" unilaterally agree on anything.  Every individual is welcomed to share their opinion. We don't always agree with one another, but we tend to agree that everyone's opinion is valid. I think that reconciliation begins with the individual. For example, if Joe and Pidge decide to stay together, then we are going to offer them as much support as we possibly can. It may be that some think they belong together, while others may think they should part. What's important is what Joe and Pidge think and we will offer both of them support, direction and encouragement. Should one or both of them choose to end their relationship, we will still offer both of them support, direction and encouragement, just as individuals. And, we will genuinely wish both of them well. We offer support to anyone who is trying to find healing after infidelity whether they are the BS or the WS. And, both, BS's and WS's have been called out on their issues on this thread. I don't think we handle anyone here with kid gloves.

I believe Rookie and Sweetie represent a different kind of reconciliation, but very successful, nonetheless. While they have, ultimately, chosen to move forward in their lives, as individuals, rather than as a couple, they have truly reconciled, both, within themselves and their former relationship as man and wife. They will now be able to enjoy a very healthy and amicable friendship and co-parenting relationship going forward. I believe that is all a part of a genuine reconciliation. 

What makes this thread different? Well, we treat one another with respect. We have a desire to encourage healing and, ultimately, happiness. We don't paint everyone with the same brush. And, perhaps, the most important thing, we seem to understand on the R thread, is that everyone has an innate desire, maybe even a need, to be heard and to be understood. And, by allowing everyone to share their story, in their own way, without the fear of condemnation, we have a unique opportunity to learn from one another that we may never have had, otherwise. Make no mistake, there is plenty of tough love on this thread. But, at the end of the day, there is a lot of genuine love, care, concern and support for the well-being of one another. I'm not sure why that seems to rankle the feathers of some of the other TAMers. I am sure that I don't need to continue wasting what precious little spare time I have worrying about it. Although, for me, that's easier said than done. 

I'm very busy these days working on my own reconciliation. Do B1 and I still struggle? Yes, we do. Yet, even as I type this, I'm smiling and I'm truly starting to feel a sense of peace and contentment that I haven't known for so many years. B1 and I continue to face many challenges. I think, for some unknown reason, we always will. But, just knowing that we're facing them together, makes the challenges more bearable and our future is finally beginning to look brighter. That's a far cry from "hopeless" and "empty inside."


----------



## CantSitStill

Well said EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Bfree, In a great many cases, here on TAM, there are issues that even the BS and WS are either unaware of, or refuse to admit to. Trickle truthing, rug sweeping, disrespect, entitlement issues, etc. are just a few. Pointing these out to the WS and BS is definitely not pinching a loaf in the punch. It is a necessary step to genuine R as opposed to false R which we here have seen many times.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Rookie4 said:


> Bfree, In a great many cases, here on TAM, there are issues that even the BS and WS are either unaware of, or refuse to admit to. Trickle truthing, rug sweeping, disrespect, entitlement issues, etc. are just a few. Pointing these out to the WS and BS is definitely not pinching a loaf in the punch. It is a necessary step to genuine R as opposed to false R which we here have seen many times.


Rookie, if you look back in this thread you will see that many posters, myself included, have taken both WS and BS to task for "lazy thinking" which would include all of the issues you just mentioned. But we do it respectfully with that person's best interest at heart. Yoyo many times on TAM I've seen people who decide to reconcile be chastised and criticized for that decision. In this thread we make no such proclamations. All we do is encourage those that wish to attempt reconciliation by offering support, advice and sometimes just a shoulder to cry on. Sometimes a slight 2x4 bashing its appropriate. But never do we apply a 2x4 when a hug is what is truly needed.


----------



## jupiter13

Just checking in and had to tell someone. I did a goggle search on our names as I do time to time see what is out there. Up pops mature singles match-up site. Now I don't know if I have just been missing it or it's new or would it just pops up out of now where a few years later> So I logged in yes he is not very secretive about not using the same old passwords and id so I filled in a contact email form requesting sign up date. Says in 24 hours I hope I can hold my temper that long but he will know something is up he can read me too well.


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## russell28

Rookie4 said:


> Bfree, In a great many cases, here on TAM, there are issues that even the BS and WS are either unaware of, or refuse to admit to. Trickle truthing, rug sweeping, disrespect, entitlement issues, etc. are just a few. Pointing these out to the WS and BS is definitely not pinching a loaf in the punch. It is a necessary step to genuine R as opposed to false R which we here have seen many times.


This forum has been more helpful for me than MC.. I've actually taught my MC a few things that I've learned here. I credit people like EI, bfree and Somedaydig for the advanced state of my R... Even the 'kick her to the curb' crowd was very helpful. I'm not sure I'd still be with my wife and in an okay state of mind at this point in my life without the advice and support I've received from TAM members.

I like that Rookie and bfree can have a discussion without resorting to 'you mad bro'. That's what sets this thread apart.


----------



## russell28

bfree said:


> Rookie, if you look back in this thread you will see that many posters, myself included, have taken both WS and BS to task for "lazy thinking" which would include all of the issues you just mentioned. But we do it respectfully with that person's best interest at heart. Yoyo many times on TAM I've seen people who decide to reconcile be chastised and criticized for that decision. In this thread we make no such proclamations. All we do is encourage those that wish to attempt reconciliation by offering support, advice and sometimes just a shoulder to cry on. Sometimes a slight 2x4 bashing its appropriate. But never do we apply a 2x4 when a hug is what is truly needed.


I'm not sure which page the 2x4 to the head of my WS from somedaydig is.. but it should be stickied considering how effective it was.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Rookie, if you look back in this thread you will see that many posters, myself included, have taken both WS and BS to task for "lazy thinking" which would include all of the issues you just mentioned. But we do it respectfully with that person's best interest at heart. Yoyo many times on TAM I've seen people who decide to reconcile be chastised and criticized for that decision. In this thread we make no such proclamations. All we do is encourage those that wish to attempt reconciliation by offering support, advice and sometimes just a shoulder to cry on. Sometimes a slight 2x4 bashing its appropriate. But never do we apply a 2x4 when a hug is what is truly needed.


That is why I posed the question about what constitutes support? 
Quite often, the poster (either BS or WS) WANTS a hug, but they NEED a 2x4 instead. Usually I compromise and use a 1x2. LOL 
Russell mentioned Somedaydig, and he is a good example. When I first started lurking here over a year ago, one of the first threads I looked in on was a thread of his. He was arguing with several posters about whether or not his wife was still trickle-truthing him, and defending her.. It got pretty raw and both he and some other posters (I don't remember their names, I suck at names, except one of them was Badblood, EI's nemisis) were banned for a time. Turns out that his wife was, in fact, not telling him the complete truth, after all. I'm sure EI remembers this. Now, Somedaydig was defending his wife, but ignoring the advice of the other posters. Where is the happy medium? 
It seems to me, that the first thing a poster should have on TAM, is an open mind. You shouldn't have to beat somebody up, to get them to see the forest for the trees, but considering that they came to the R thread to learn how to R, in the first place, they should at least be open minded enough to follow the guides through the forest.


----------



## Rookie4

Using the same analogy, R is like a walk in the forest. There are many paths that can be taken. Now, if the BS and WS WORK TOGETHER, and are open minded enough to read the signs, and don't allow their egos to ignore pathways that have a few Briars in them, their chances of coming out of the forest are greatly improved, and they will be better people for having done so.. In my situation, Sweetie and I ended up going in different directions, but only after we got out of the woods.


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## bfree

I think for me the happy medium exists when you make your case and the poster understands your intent. It's really up to them at that point to either accept your advice or ignore it. But that advice should be presented respectfully nonetheless. Constant nagging or repeatedly applying a 2x4 is only going to alienate people and your message is effectively lost. And let's face it, if you give someone too many 2x4s you'll have brains all over the floor. Besides I don't like splinters. ;-)


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Rookie4 said:


> Using the same analogy, R is like a walk in the forest. There are many paths that can be taken. Now, if the BS and WS WORK TOGETHER, and are open minded enough to read the signs, and don't allow their egos to ignore pathways that have a few Briars in them, their chances of coming out of the forest are greatly improved, and they will be better people for having done so.. In my situation, Sweetie and I ended up going in different directions, but only after we got out of the woods.


You sounded a little like Beowulf there. That's why you should hold hands while navigating that dangerous forest. It keeps both from getting lost.


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## Rookie4

Thank you, Bfree, I consider that a compliment. I always thought that Beowulf was a great poster.


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## EI

Rookie4 said:


> B1's post enumerates one of the main reasons that Sweetie never came on to TAM. I do not believe that WS's who come to this thread should be treated any different than anyone else. While I understand B1 and his desire to defend EI, (and even though both B1 and EI know that I am one of their biggest boosters) I feel that any WS* or BS* should be adult enough to face those who question their past *and current* behavior, as long as the posters remain polite. There have been some posters who post questions that may be difficult to answer, or bring up points that might be unpleasant to hear, but if TAM is to be a true agent for personal growth , then all should be able to voice their POV's. When I first came to the R thread, I browsed some of the past pages, and I didn't see where EI was personally insulted, and IDK who these posters were, but it seems to me that we all should check our egos at the door, when venturing into such volatile territory as the R thread.


Rookie, I think your comment is spot on, with a few caveats, which I have taken the liberty to add for you in bold letters. Why, because I'm just helpful like that!  I'm sure you won't mind!  LOL 

One more thing, the majority of personal insults that I received were on both my and B1's original threads. There were very few on this thread and it was early on and they may have been removed. For the record, if they were, it wasn't at my request. I will say that reading my original thread is probably much more difficult for me than it is for any BS, here, with the exception of B1. I don't believe that any amount of money in the world would persuade him to ever read it, again. I wouldn't want him to. I have thought about deleting it, many times. But, I still receive the occasional pm from a lurker who has just read it and then follows our story to this thread. Every time someone tells me that reading our story has given them hope, it feels like a balm to my wounded soul. And, I need that. I need to find healing so that I can be a positive force in helping B1 and our children in their own healing. 



Rookie4 said:


> That is why I posed the question about what constitutes support?
> Quite often, the poster (either BS or WS) WANTS a hug, but they NEED a 2x4 instead. Usually I compromise and use a 1x2. LOL
> Russell mentioned Somedaydig, and he is a good example. When I first started lurking here over a year ago, one of the first threads I looked in on was a thread of his. He was arguing with several posters about whether or not his wife was still trickle-truthing him, and defending her.. It got pretty raw and both he and some other posters (I don't remember their names, I suck at names, except one of them was Badblood, EI's nemisis) were banned for a time. Turns out that his wife was, in fact, not telling him the complete truth, after all. I'm sure EI remembers this. Now, Somedaydig was defending his wife, but ignoring the advice of the other posters. Where is the happy medium?
> It seems to me, that the first thing a poster should have on TAM, is an open mind. You shouldn't have to beat somebody up, to get them to see the forest for the trees, but considering that they came to the R thread to learn how to R, in the first place, they should at least be open minded enough to follow the guides through the forest.


Oh, I remember that well.....  It was difficult to read and to watch play out. But, I happen to know that Dig and Regret are doing well and moving forward in their reconciliation and that good things are happening in their lives! 

Finally, I'd like to address all of this talk about 2 x 4's and 1 x 2's vs. hugs. People do often need the 2 x 4's. But, they may also need a hug, as well. I know the desire to grab someone, shake them and say "Why can't you see what everyone else can clearly see?" This can apply to BS's who are in denial about their WS and/or to WS's who are still in the fog. You can beat a WS with 2 x 4's, up one side and down the other. You can tell them what they should have done, could have done, should be thinking and should be feeling. But, none of that changes how they do think and how they do feel. You can yell, scream, call them names, tell them how worthless, undeserving, unredeemable, and selfish they are. What you've accomplished is to make someone who already feels worthless, undeserving and unredeemable, feel even worse, feel defeated, feel hopeless, and like there is no point in trying. If that's your goal, you've succeeded. But, who wins? 

When someone feels attacked and misunderstood, they will become defensive. It's a natural response. You can demand that someone "show" remorse, but you can't make someone "feel" remorse. As a BS, would you want to hear your WS say the "right" words or do you want to hear the truth? The starting point in my reconciliation with B1 was when he decided to trust his own judgement where I was concerned. He chose to meet me where I was, not where the TAM community or anyone else thought I SHOULD be. Our marriage was obviously not what it should be. My feelings were not what a wife's feelings for her husband should be. So he decided to meet me exactly where I was. But, he did not roll over and play dead. He had very clear boundaries when we chose to attempt reconciliation; NC, NC letter (I fought that one, I know, I know.... ) complete transparency, throw away and/or destroy all mementos, and many other things, as well. He was also very willing to acknowledge his own failures in our marriage and how they had contributed to my being in a very vulnerable state pre-A. 

This may not be the case for everyone. Our story is about our marriage, our failures, our downfall and our new beginning. I needed to make a new commitment to B1 and our relationship. I needed to give him the honest answers he needed to begin to recover. I needed to make him feel safe, loved, desired and respected. I learned so much from the kind, compassionate and respectful posters on this thread about how to accomplish that. It's been a journey. Our marriage is becoming more amazing every day. That's our story. Everyone has one. Let them share it. Meet them where they are. The marriage you may think is hopeless, may just be the one you help to save. If a BS or WS finds their way to TAM, 9 times out of 10, they're honestly trying to find help. The 2 x 4's can serve a purpose, but there comes a time to put them away and start listening with a compassionate heart. If you don't think you can help someone or you think they're unworthy of your help, then move on to another. Unfortunately, there will always be plenty more. What does anyone stand to gain by putting others down? If you're not a part of someone's solution, then don't add to their problems.

No time to proofread...... Geeeeez, I had no intentions of getting in this deep!


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## calvin

Decent stuff EI, an R might be similar in a way between a couple but I don't think no two R's are the same.
CSS was attacked also,she did'nt have much of a chance,she had to wait out the slings and arrows.
Once the shooting stopped and people got to know her better over time the attacks stopped.
She still gets it once in awhile,we even had a couple stalkers but the mods took care of them.
Thanks Amp,Aug and the rest of you.
It was nice to see B1 post a little,I was wonderng about him,looks like he's strong and doing
fine.
R is a b!tch but sometimes it can be rewarding,sometimes I guess the pain is worth it?
I guess it depends on the circumstances.
All I know is that I see success stories and me and CSS are just one of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

The 2/4 to the head isn't to make a WS feel worthless or to get them to tell the BS what they want to hear.. It's giving the WS no bull, not playing into allowing them to continue to brainwash themselves with excuses and justifications built on years of resentment .. The first step to rebuilding self worth is to be honest with yourself. When presented with gas lighting, blame shifting and trickle truth, a WS that wants to R needs to understand those things are going to kill it, and you can't tap that into them with a toothpick, it's too small.. Even the 2x4 isn't a sure thing


I used a couple.. Read one of just grindings letters to her and a few others, and dig and regrets posts.. Bam... She was knocked down, but got up with clearer vision
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

russell28 said:


> The 2/4 to the head isn't to make a WS feel worthless or to get them to tell the BS what they want to hear.. It's giving the WS no bull, not playing into allowing them to continue to brainwash themselves with excuses and justifications built on years of resentment .. The first step to rebuilding self worth is to be honest with yourself. When presented with gas lighting, blame shifting and trickle truth, a WS that wants to R needs to understand those things are going to kill it, and you can't tap that into them with a toothpick, it's too small.. Even the 2x4 isn't a sure thing
> 
> 
> I used a couple.. Read one of just grindings letters to her and a few others, and dig and regrets posts.. Bam... She was knocked down, but got up with clearer vision
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I did'nt car for the 2x4 tough love approach to CSS,I hated it,I hated myself for kicking
her out but it needed to be done,even then when I asked me or him? She chose him.
I had to ratchet up the tough love deal even when I asked if she wanted to come home.

She was still fogbound for a few weeks,once I showed her the OM police,arrest and financial
records she came out of it for the most part. It was the lies he told her that got her head straight
I think,not his money,he doesn't have any,or how much he made or his position at work
It was the mountain of lies that I feel helped wake her up. I had changes to make also.

Sorry,I'm just bored and talking for the hell of it.
Waiting on her to get home from work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

I'm not quite sure if I need a hug or a 2x4 , but I could use some thoughts/feedback on a thinking pattern regarding trust, I think, that I seem to have a hard time getting rid of. I know I've posted something similar before, a while ago, but I haven't done a complete turnaround yet, it seems.

I goes something like this (internal dialogue - I like talking to myself):

Wife: I won't cheat on you again
Me: Hmm... what were you thinking before - did you tell yourself you would cheat on me?

Wife: I won't hurt you like that ever again
Me: Well, did you tell yourself that you wanted to hurt me before you had the affair?

Wife: I don't wanna be that person
Me: Did you wanna be that person before?? That means the marriage was a scam from the beginning?

We've had these dialogues before, and the only thing she can say when I ask this way is "No, but you have to trust that I've learned from it". And my answer to that is: No, I don't have to trust anything. A little voice is saying "yeah, yeah, if you say so, but I know better than this today"

These internal dialogues appear frequently and keeps me from opening up and being vulnerable to being deceived again. My therapist once asked me what is the worst thing that could happen if she betrays you again? It almost sounds trivial, but for me answer is: I would feel like a complete idiot, and I would lose my remaining faith in human decency.

The motivation to ask you is this, I'm starting to question what real love is, and if there in fact is something better or just different out there - is this really it? I've known her all my adult life, and for 26 years I thought I loved her with all my heart, body and soul - and I believed it to be reciprocated. These days I feel it more like a caring love, I care for her, support her in various ways, job, education, leisure activities etc., I enjoy being with her. I also desire her a lot, but it's just not quite the same, when you doubt that it's mutual. I tell myself I shouldn't care about her reasons to stay, but everything just feels very different from pre-affair days.

I enjoy my life as it is, I have come to terms with the way things are, and I don't go around wishing me something more, because that something more turned out to be a fantasy. It's just that the doubt creeps in on me once in a while.

I know this post contains two seperate and different issues, but does it make any sense? Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


----------



## russell28

cpacan said:


> I'm not quite sure if I need a hug or a 2x4 , but I could use some thoughts/feedback on a thinking pattern regarding trust, I think, that I seem to have a hard time getting rid of. I know I've posted something similar before, a while ago, but I haven't done a complete turnaround yet, it seems.
> 
> I goes something like this (internal dialogue - I like talking to myself):
> 
> Wife: I won't cheat on you again
> Me: Hmm... what were you thinking before - did you tell yourself you would cheat on me?
> 
> Wife: I won't hurt you like that ever again
> Me: Well, did you tell yourself that you wanted to hurt me before you had the affair?
> 
> Wife: I don't wanna be that person
> Me: Did you wanna be that person before?? That means the marriage was a scam from the beginning?
> 
> We've had these dialogues before, and the only thing she can say when I ask this way is "No, but you have to trust that I've learned from it". And my answer to that is: No, I don't have to trust anything. A little voice is saying "yeah, yeah, if you say so, but I know better than this today"
> 
> These internal dialogues appear frequently and keeps me from opening up and being vulnerable to being deceived again. My therapist once asked me what is the worst thing that could happen if she betrays you again? It almost sounds trivial, but for me answer is: I would feel like a complete idiot, and I would lose my remaining faith in human decency.
> 
> The motivation to ask you is this, I'm starting to question what real love is, and if there in fact is something better or just different out there - is this really it? I've known her all my adult life, and for 26 years I thought I loved her with all my heart, body and soul - and I believed it to be reciprocated. These days I feel it more like a caring love, I care for her, support her in various ways, job, education, leisure activities etc., I enjoy being with her. I also desire her a lot, but it's just not quite the same, when you doubt that it's mutual. I tell myself I shouldn't care about her reasons to stay, but everything just feels very different from pre-affair days.
> 
> I enjoy my life as it is, I have come to terms with the way things are, and I don't go around wishing me something more, because that something more turned out to be a fantasy. It's just that the doubt creeps in on me once in a while.
> 
> I know this post contains two seperate and different issues, but does it make any sense? Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


I think the problem is the 'I don't want to hurt YOU'... I think at the end of the day, a person needs to understand that avoiding cheating, that resisting temptation, all those things, are not for your spouse. It's for you. Protect yourself from hurting yourself, I'll take care of me. I've done a pretty good job of shutting down any attempts from others to infiltrate my marriage, my wife needs to do the same. I don't want to hurt myself.. I don't want to live with guilt and shame, and I don't want to have to struggle with the thought that I'd have something I know about that I didn't tell my wife, and that she deserves to know. I'd feel like dirt. Why would I want to do that to myself? I don't even respect this person that's trying to help me destroy my marriage by wanting me to cheat with them, how dare they... They might have an STD since they are such a lowlife.. Now instead of horny, I'm insulted.

See what I did there? I kept myself and my marriage safe.

Your post makes perfect sense.. You were able to keep her heart safe, and she was reckless with yours. So now you're hesitant to give it back to her.


----------



## bfree

cpacan said:


> I'm not quite sure if I need a hug or a 2x4 , but I could use some thoughts/feedback on a thinking pattern regarding trust, I think, that I seem to have a hard time getting rid of. I know I've posted something similar before, a while ago, but I haven't done a complete turnaround yet, it seems.
> 
> *We've talked about this before but this time allow me to inject what my internal thoughts would be.*
> 
> I goes something like this (internal dialogue - I like talking to myself):
> 
> Wife: I won't cheat on you again
> Me: Hmm... what were you thinking before - did you tell yourself you would cheat on me?
> *Bfree: If you do I'll be gone so fast your head will spin.*
> 
> Wife: I won't hurt you like that ever again
> Me: Well, did you tell yourself that you wanted to hurt me before you had the affair?
> *Bfree: If there is a next time the only one hurt will be you. I won't let you hurt me again.*
> 
> Wife: I don't wanna be that person
> Me: Did you wanna be that person before?? That means the marriage was a scam from the beginning?
> *Bfree: Yes that person was a sorry example for a human being. You'd better take every step to make sure you don't sink that low again.*
> 
> We've had these dialogues before, and the only thing she can say when I ask this way is "No, but you have to trust that I've learned from it". And my answer to that is: No, I don't have to trust anything. A little voice is saying "yeah, yeah, if you say so, but I know better than this today"
> 
> *My response: What have you done to ensure you won't do that again? What have you done to reassure me that you don't want to be that person anymore?*
> 
> These internal dialogues appear frequently and keeps me from opening up and being vulnerable to being deceived again. My therapist once asked me what is the worst thing that could happen if she betrays you again? It almost sounds trivial, but for me answer is: I would feel like a complete idiot, and I would lose my remaining faith in human decency.
> 
> *You have to be confident in yourself that you not only would survive another betrayal but you would thrive in the aftermath. In my opinion this is less of a trust issue and more of a confidence issue.*
> 
> The motivation to ask you is this, I'm starting to question what real love is, and if there in fact is something better or just different out there - is this really it? I've known her all my adult life, and for 26 years I thought I loved her with all my heart, body and soul - and I believed it to be reciprocated. These days I feel it more like a caring love, I care for her, support her in various ways, job, education, leisure activities etc., I enjoy being with her. I also desire her a lot, but it's just not quite the same, when you doubt that it's mutual. I tell myself I shouldn't care about her reasons to stay, but everything just feels very different from pre-affair days.
> 
> *I'm glad everything feels different...it should. You need to understand that as humans we screw up....a lot. We are fully capable of disappointment and betrayal. And the closer you are to someone the more hurt is generated by that betrayal. Like an adult that wistfully recalls the more simple days of his/her childhood you are longing for the days of innocense. But living in the past does not help you live for the present and plan for the future.*
> 
> I enjoy my life as it is, I have come to terms with the way things are, and I don't go around wishing me something more, because that something more turned out to be a fantasy. It's just that the doubt creeps in on me once in a while.
> 
> *I don't think you have come to terms with the way things are. At least not completely. You are wishing for something. You are wishing that things were back to the way they were before her affair. But that can never be and you shouldn't want to live in ignorance. Experiences can be painful but they also teach us something. When you deal with a traumatic event you can react in a couple of ways. You can either crawl in a hole and lament your bad fortune. Or you can accept and even embrace what happened and learn and grow from it. Stop dwelling on the past and have faith that you can and will have a good life, with or without your wife. That is the truth of acceptance. If you still fear she will betray you again you have not accepted what happened or grown from it.*
> 
> I know this post contains two seperate and different issues, but does it make any sense? Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
> 
> *On the contrary, the issues are intertwined. If you still have fear that is what is driving your doubts. You need to get to the point where you know that regardless of what she does you are going to be fine. You may say it but your doubts tell another story. If she has not and is not doing enough to reassure you that she is now trustworthy why are you still with her? Is it fear of losing her? Fear of losing your marriage? If you know in your heart that she has done enough to reassure you and has atoned for her hurtful choices then you haven't truly accepted the situation and are still looking at the past. That is the question you need to answer.*


----------



## EI

russell28 said:


> I think the problem is the 'I don't want to hurt YOU'... I think at the end of the day, a person needs to understand that avoiding cheating, that resisting temptation, all those things, are not for your spouse. It's for you. Protect yourself from hurting yourself, I'll take care of me. I've done a pretty good job of shutting down any attempts from others to infiltrate my marriage, my wife needs to do the same. I don't want to hurt myself.. I don't want to live with guilt and shame, and I don't want to have to struggle with the thought that I'd have something I know about that I didn't tell my wife, and that she deserves to know. I'd feel like dirt. Why would I want to do that to myself? I don't even respect this person that's trying to help me destroy my marriage by wanting me to cheat with them, how dare they... They might have an STD since they are such a lowlife.. Now instead of horny, I'm insulted.
> 
> See what I did there? I kept myself and my marriage safe.
> 
> Your post makes perfect sense.. You were able to keep her heart safe, and she was reckless with yours. So now you're hesitant to give it back to her.


Russell, that was perfect, absolutely perfect. I wish I had realized that I wasn't doing something "for me," but instead, I was doing something "to me." And, it wasn't a good thing. And, worse, I did it to my family, as well. I wasn't in love with B1, at the time, I honestly wasn't, but I know now that that doesn't justify my choices, nothing does. I was still me, and I knew better. And, my children, oh my children. What was I thinking? I wasn't. I wouldn't allow myself to. It really shouldn't be so complicated; "To thine own self be true." I can see that so clearly now. I read your words and they sunk in. But, sadly, I don't think I would have allowed myself to "hear" those words, or to acknowledge those words before. I wish I had something other than hindsight. I wish I could find the words that would have convinced me, then, how differently I would feel, now. Even though I can't undo what has already been done, if I could find a way to convince someone, like me, who felt as desperate and as hopeless as I did, then, to make a different choice, I think that might be the start of finding forgiveness for myself.


----------



## Rookie4

cpacan said:


> I'm not quite sure if I need a hug or a 2x4 , but I could use some thoughts/feedback on a thinking pattern regarding trust, I think, that I seem to have a hard time getting rid of. I know I've posted something similar before, a while ago, but I haven't done a complete turnaround yet, it seems.
> 
> I goes something like this (internal dialogue - I like talking to myself):
> 
> Wife: I won't cheat on you again
> Me: Hmm... what were you thinking before - did you tell yourself you would cheat on me?
> 
> Wife: I won't hurt you like that ever again
> Me: Well, did you tell yourself that you wanted to hurt me before you had the affair?
> 
> Wife: I don't wanna be that person
> Me: Did you wanna be that person before?? That means the marriage was a scam from the beginning?
> 
> We've had these dialogues before, and the only thing she can say when I ask this way is "No, but you have to trust that I've learned from it". And my answer to that is: No, I don't have to trust anything. A little voice is saying "yeah, yeah, if you say so, but I know better than this today"
> 
> These internal dialogues appear frequently and keeps me from opening up and being vulnerable to being deceived again. My therapist once asked me what is the worst thing that could happen if she betrays you again? It almost sounds trivial, but for me answer is: I would feel like a complete idiot, and I would lose my remaining faith in human decency.
> 
> The motivation to ask you is this, I'm starting to question what real love is, and if there in fact is something better or just different out there - is this really it? I've known her all my adult life, and for 26 years I thought I loved her with all my heart, body and soul - and I believed it to be reciprocated. These days I feel it more like a caring love, I care for her, support her in various ways, job, education, leisure activities etc., I enjoy being with her. I also desire her a lot, but it's just not quite the same, when you doubt that it's mutual. I tell myself I shouldn't care about her reasons to stay, but everything just feels very different from pre-affair days.
> 
> I enjoy my life as it is, I have come to terms with the way things are, and I don't go around wishing me something more, because that something more turned out to be a fantasy. It's just that the doubt creeps in on me once in a while.
> 
> I know this post contains two seperate and different issues, but does it make any sense? Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


Cpacan, much of what you say resonated with me. I , too, have noticed the changes in my relationship with Sweetie. I DO care for her and her welfare, and up to a point, I still desire her sexually. The question is, is this enough?
Now...... I feel strongly that she would not cheat again, I also feel that she is very much in love with me, so why isn't it enough to R? The answer I found is in the difference between her experiences and mine. She, most likely, would not cheat again, because she has improved herself and worked out the issues that caused the cheating. She is certain that she is in love with me because she has had the experience of being with another, and found no love there. The proof of that is the quickness and completeness that she ended the affair and the amount of work she has put into R. In both situations, she has had the advantage , in that she never had to doubt me or my love. I never cheated. All of the ideas of romantic love, marriage, desire etc, in her case , are still intact in her mind.. 
My experiences as a BS are far different and far more difficult to deal with. A. I had to deal with the affair. I did that by kicking her out of the home and divorcing her. B. I had to re-establish my self-esteem. I did that by meeting and having relationships with other women, post affair. C. I had to be able to be open to being in love with her again. This, I have not been able to achieve.
Sweetie is a far, far better person than she was pre-affair. I recognize this, but she does not generate the same feelings in me that she used to. I can't help this, and neither can she. The one irrevocable fact is that the affair PERMANENTLY changes the marriage, and for the marriage to survive, BOTH persons MUST be willing and able to fully endorse the changes. Sweetie can do this because she was not the BS, I can't because I was.


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> Rookie, I think your comment is spot on, with a few caveats, which I have taken the liberty to add for you in bold letters. Why, because I'm just helpful like that!  I'm sure you won't mind!  LOL
> 
> One more thing, the majority of personal insults that I received were on both my and B1's original threads. There were very few on this thread and it was early on and they may have been removed. For the record, if they were, it wasn't at my request. I will say that reading my original thread is probably much more difficult for me than it is for any BS, here, with the exception of B1. I don't believe that any amount of money in the world would persuade him to ever read it, again. I wouldn't want him to. I have thought about deleting it, many times. But, I still receive the occasional pm from a lurker who has just read it and then follows our story to this thread. Every time someone tells me that reading our story has given them hope, it feels like a balm to my wounded soul. And, I need that. I need to find healing so that I can be a positive force in helping B1 and our children in their own healing.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I remember that well.....  It was difficult to read and to watch play out. But, I happen to know that Dig and Regret are doing well and moving forward in their reconciliation and that good things are happening in their lives!
> 
> Finally, I'd like to address all of this talk about 2 x 4's and 1 x 2's vs. hugs. People do often need the 2 x 4's. But, they may also need a hug, as well. I know the desire to grab someone, shake them and say "Why can't you see what everyone else can clearly see?" This can apply to BS's who are in denial about their WS and/or to WS's who are still in the fog. You can beat a WS with 2 x 4's, up one side and down the other. You can tell them what they should have done, could have done, should be thinking and should be feeling. But, none of that changes how they do think and how they do feel. You can yell, scream, call them names, tell them how worthless, undeserving, unredeemable, and selfish they are. What you've accomplished is to make someone who already feels worthless, undeserving and unredeemable, feel even worse, feel defeated, feel hopeless, and like there is no point in trying. If that's your goal, you've succeeded. But, who wins?
> 
> When someone feels attacked and misunderstood, they will become defensive. It's a natural response. You can demand that someone "show" remorse, but you can't make someone "feel" remorse. As a BS, would you want to hear your WS say the "right" words or do you want to hear the truth? The starting point in my reconciliation with B1 was when he decided to trust his own judgement where I was concerned. He chose to meet me where I was, not where the TAM community or anyone else thought I SHOULD be. Our marriage was obviously not what it should be. My feelings were not what a wife's feelings for her husband should be. So he decided to meet me exactly where I was. But, he did not roll over and play dead. He had very clear boundaries when we chose to attempt reconciliation; NC, NC letter (I fought that one, I know, I know.... ) complete transparency, throw away and/or destroy all mementos, and many other things, as well. He was also very willing to acknowledge his own failures in our marriage and how they had contributed to my being in a very vulnerable state pre-A.
> 
> This may not be the case for everyone. Our story is about our marriage, our failures, our downfall and our new beginning. I needed to make a new commitment to B1 and our relationship. I needed to give him the honest answers he needed to begin to recover. I needed to make him feel safe, loved, desired and respected. I learned so much from the kind, compassionate and respectful posters on this thread about how to accomplish that. It's been a journey. Our marriage is becoming more amazing every day. That's our story. Everyone has one. Let them share it. Meet them where they are. The marriage you may think is hopeless, may just be the one you help to save. If a BS or WS finds their way to TAM, 9 times out of 10, they're honestly trying to find help. The 2 x 4's can serve a purpose, but there comes a time to put them away and start listening with a compassionate heart. If you don't think you can help someone or you think they're unworthy of your help, then move on to another. Unfortunately, there will always be plenty more. What does anyone stand to gain by putting others down? If you're not a part of someone's solution, then don't add to their problems.
> 
> No time to proofread...... Geeeeez, I had no intentions of getting in this deep!


 I wish I could like this a million times!! As it is, I have to wait until I have my computer again just to like it once! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

cpacan said:


> I'm not quite sure if I need a hug or a 2x4 , but I could use some thoughts/feedback on a thinking pattern regarding trust, I think, that I seem to have a hard time getting rid of. I know I've posted something similar before, a while ago, but I haven't done a complete turnaround yet, it seems.
> 
> I goes something like this (internal dialogue - I like talking to myself):
> 
> Wife: I won't cheat on you again
> Me: Hmm... what were you thinking before - did you tell yourself you would cheat on me?
> 
> Wife: I won't hurt you like that ever again
> Me: Well, did you tell yourself that you wanted to hurt me before you had the affair?
> 
> Wife: I don't wanna be that person
> Me: Did you wanna be that person before?? That means the marriage was a scam from the beginning?
> 
> We've had these dialogues before, and the only thing she can say when I ask this way is "No, but you have to trust that I've learned from it". And my answer to that is: No, I don't have to trust anything. A little voice is saying "yeah, yeah, if you say so, but I know better than this today"
> 
> These internal dialogues appear frequently and keeps me from opening up and being vulnerable to being deceived again. My therapist once asked me what is the worst thing that could happen if she betrays you again? It almost sounds trivial, but for me answer is: I would feel like a complete idiot, and I would lose my remaining faith in human decency.
> 
> The motivation to ask you is this, I'm starting to question what real love is, and if there in fact is something better or just different out there - is this really it? I've known her all my adult life, and for 26 years I thought I loved her with all my heart, body and soul - and I believed it to be reciprocated. These days I feel it more like a caring love, I care for her, support her in various ways, job, education, leisure activities etc., I enjoy being with her. I also desire her a lot, but it's just not quite the same, when you doubt that it's mutual. I tell myself I shouldn't care about her reasons to stay, but everything just feels very different from pre-affair days.
> 
> I enjoy my life as it is, I have come to terms with the way things are, and I don't go around wishing me something more, because that something more turned out to be a fantasy. It's just that the doubt creeps in on me once in a while.
> 
> I know this post contains two seperate and different issues, but does it make any sense? Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


Hi CPACAN, I'm sorry you're struggling with these feelings right now. If I remember right, your wife has struggled herself with really showing you her remorse and communicating honestly both about the affair and in general, right?

When I read your internal dialogue, I feel like it's clear she hasn't done the work necessary to help you feel safe. Matt hates statements like that too, I try to never make them. I completely understand why they would ring false in every way, even if they are truly felt.

What has she done to help you feel that she would not cheat again? What does she know and understand about the causes of her affair, and how can she demonstrate that she has a prevention plan in place that would allow you to feel like you can let your guard down? For Matt and I, I have a detailed NC plan for OM and toxic friends. A few months ago, I spent time regularly reviewing that with him to help reinforce that I was taking steps to eliminate weaknesses with outside parties. I also have a detailed list of emotional vulnerabilities, what it looks like if someone outside the marriage attempts to fill those needs, and how I will handle each situation to maintain transparency and connection with Matt. I have also reviewed that regularly with him. I continue to review both myself each week or so.

It's not much, given the depth of my betrayal. But it's a starting point for us. It will take a lot of time and demonstrated changed patterns of behavior before Matt can begin to feel safe, I'm sure. But at least he has more than just my word, "I won't cheat again." Instead, he gets, "I'm doing everything possible to minimize my risk of cheating again - here's how and why I think this will be effective." I'd love to say I'll never cheat again - I believe that to be true - but I know it's a meaningless guarantee to both Matt and I because I never thought I would be vulnerable to having an affair in the first place.

And I agree with bfree that your issues stated above are linked. How could you possibly feel any depth of love when you are busy protecting yourself from your wife? If she can do the work necessary for you to feel safer, and if you can let that affect you, I think it is possible for your feelings to strengthen beyond basic care. At some point, you do have to let her in, but she has to earn that trust. I hope she is doing more to help you and she reach that point.


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## CantSitStill

I do say to calvin that I know I will never cheat again.. I really know I won't. I do not talk to other men as friends even because now I am more aware that my being friendly may make a man think I am flirting. I have much more awareness of how a chat can turn into an EA. I know that it is up to him to trust me and that is hard to do, so I am just blessed to have this chance to make things better from now on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I do say to calvin that I know I will never cheat again.. I really know I won't. I do not talk to other men as friends even because now I am more aware that my being friendly may make a man think I am flirting. I have much more awareness of how a chat can turn into an EA. I know that it is up to him to trust me and that is hard to do, so I am just blessed to have this chance to make things better from now on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Honestly don't believe you would ever again.
I don't even check her stuff very much at all anymore,have'nt in awhile.
I don't feel the need too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Cpacan,
Sorry you have to deal with those feelings,its not fair too you after a couple years.
I really think she should be ressuring you and showing you she's working hard
on getting as much trust back as she can.
Its hard to trust again........very hard.I can identify with thinking the marriage was
one big joke,I don't feel that way too much anymore.
I get questioning love,I don't want to get hurt again but I'll take the chance.
What is she doing to make you wonder about the love and trust?
What is she not doing to make you question her commitment to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> I do say to calvin that I know I will never cheat again.. I really know I won't. I do not talk to other men as friends even because now I am more aware that my being friendly may make a man think I am flirting. I have much more awareness of how a chat can turn into an EA. I know that it is up to him to trust me and that is hard to do, so I am just blessed to have this chance to make things better from now on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tell RTBP the same and I can honestly say that I KNOW I will never do anything like this again. I didn't have many male friends to begin with but I've cut ties to most of them. The only men in my cell contacts are RTBP, family, or not into women. Also I've talked to RTBP about getting me a cheap secondary phone for work so I won't have to put any guys on my personal. It's for work so it'll have to be password protected but I want him to set it. Plus I want him to put whatever he needs on it to feel comfortable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> *By cpacan*
> These internal dialogues appear frequently and keeps me from opening up and being vulnerable to being deceived again. My therapist once asked me what is the worst thing that could happen if she betrays you again? It almost sounds trivial, but for me answer is: I would feel like a complete idiot, and I would lose my remaining faith in human decency.
> 
> *By bfree*
> You have to be confident in yourself that you not only would survive another betrayal but you would thrive in the aftermath. In my opinion this is less of a trust issue and more of a confidence issue.



I am with bfree on this but will make a few comments.

*Cpacan is putting too much of his life into the hands of his wife.* He says that he feels like a complete idiot (inferior), and would lose faith in humanity if his wife cheated again. *Cpacan’s wife does not determine cpacan’s self esteem or his faith in all of humanity! That is for cpacan to determine and is his responsibility to himself*. Putting everything in your life in the hands of your spouse is detrimental rather they are a WS or not.


*Cpacan needs to work on the only person that he can make a big difference in and that is himself.* Cpacan can become the best cpacan he can be and then he will be much more able to give his wife more if the R is going to work or he will be ok if he does the D and starts a new life without his wife.

Bfree’ statement below is a good one



> *By bfree*
> Or you can accept and even embrace what happened and learn and grow from it. Stop dwelling on the past and have faith that you can and will have a good life, with or without your wife.


*Sometimes I think that some of the BS focus too much on what the WS can do for them and not enough on building themselves up in the area that is their responsibility.* There is no doubt that the WS should do everything possible to help the BS but they can not do it all. The BS has a part in building themselves up regardless as to what the WS does.


When the BS is built up and strong he/she can help a lot more in R or make for a reasonable separation. Building yourself up is a WIN-WIN activity!


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## cpacan

As usual a lot to think about - this time even more so because your observations and comments don't quite reflect what I think and feel, so something must be off one way or the other.

Thank you all for taking the time and effort to respond, I appreciate every kick in the *** and pad on the back.


Mr Blunt said:


> I am with bfree on this but will make a few comments.
> 
> *Cpacan is putting too much of his life into the hands of his wife.* He says that he feels like a complete idiot (inferior), and would lose faith in humanity if his wife cheated again. *Cpacan’s wife does not determine cpacan’s self esteem or his faith in all of humanity! That is for cpacan to determine and is his responsibility to himself*. Putting everything in your life in the hands of your spouse is detrimental rather they are a WS or not.
> 
> *Cpacan needs to work on the only person that he can make a big difference in and that is himself.* Cpacan can become the best cpacan he can be and then he will be much more able to give his wife more if the R is going to work or he will be ok if he does the D and starts a new life without his wife.
> 
> Bfree’ statement below is a good one
> 
> *Sometimes I think that some of the BS focus too much on what the WS can do for them and not enough on building themselves up in the area that is their responsibility.* There is no doubt that the WS should do everything possible to help the BS but they can not do it all. The BS has a part in building themselves up regardless as to what the WS does.
> 
> When the BS is built up and strong he/she can help a lot more in R or make for a reasonable separation. Building yourself up is a WIN-WIN activity!


Well Mr.Blunt, Cpacan is still here, so no need to adress him in third person - as response to the essence of what you and Bfree are saying: 

Working on the one person I can control, is what I do - a lot actually. I haven't worked this hard on myself at any point in my life, physically or mentally. I haven't felt so good about myself in years. And I also do trust and believe that I'll be able to manage myself should we divorce, and in my mind divorce is still a valid option, which it didn't use to be.

You say that I put everything in the hands of my wife, I don't think I do. I live my life, I concentrate on things that make me happy, things that will benefit me and the kids in the future, no matter if my wife and I stay together or not.

What I do let her control is whether or not she'll put in the effort to understand herself and her actions better. This is the only way that I'll ever be able see her as a (relatively) safe person to be with. If she's safe, I'll open myself more to her, if not, I'll just concentrate on me and the kids.

I don't think that is me giving her the power to control me, is it?

As for your comment about being inferior and Bfree's note about fear - I really need to put some thought to that, because it's not what I tell myself, but I can see why you say it - so there's abviously some dissonance here to look at. Thank you.



Rookie4 said:


> Cpacan, much of what you say resonated with me. I , too, have noticed the changes in my relationship with Sweetie. I DO care for her and her welfare, and up to a point, I still desire her sexually. The question is, is this enough?
> ...
> Sweetie is a far, far better person than she was pre-affair. I recognize this, but she does not generate the same feelings in me that she used to. I can't help this, and neither can she. The one irrevocable fact is that the affair PERMANENTLY changes the marriage, and for the marriage to survive, BOTH persons MUST be willing and able to fully endorse the changes. Sweetie can do this because she was not the BS, I can't because I was.


This is another way of saying what I also had on my mind when I posted my previous post, and it always helps to see your words rephrased and elaborated on, thanks. So, isn't this almost wayward thinking: I wonder if there is something better out there, let's run a test? 

The feelings we used to have for our WS were obviously based on false beliefs, which make me think that maybe there isn't more to have - jumping ship will not necessarily bring back the lost feelings, if it does, they might just as well be false too.

And yes, the relationship has been permanently changed - unfortunately not all changes are good. I realize I have to keep my eye on the positive changes in my own behavior.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Hi CPACAN, I'm sorry you're struggling with these feelings right now. If I remember right, your wife has struggled herself with really showing you her remorse and communicating honestly both about the affair and in general, right?


Not quite true. I think I know more than 90% of the truth about events. No lies that I'm aware of for about 18 months (besides from a small slip that we quickly corrected). But it's true that she struggles to communicate at all about this, especially her own part in it. If I had to guess, I would say that lack of introspection plays a huge part in it.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> When I read your internal dialogue, I feel like it's clear she hasn't done the work necessary to help you feel safe. Matt hates statements like that too, I try to never make them. I completely understand why they would ring false in every way, even if they are truly felt.


It's good to know that I'm not alone



Mrs_Mathias said:


> What has she done to help you feel that she would not cheat again? What does she know and understand about the causes of her affair, and how can she demonstrate that she has a prevention plan in place that would allow you to feel like you can let your guard down? For Matt and I, I have a detailed NC plan for OM and toxic friends. A few months ago, I spent time regularly reviewing that with him to help reinforce that I was taking steps to eliminate weaknesses with outside parties. I also have a detailed list of emotional vulnerabilities, what it looks like if someone outside the marriage attempts to fill those needs, and how I will handle each situation to maintain transparency and connection with Matt. I have also reviewed that regularly with him. I continue to review both myself each week or so.
> 
> It's not much, given the depth of my betrayal. But it's a starting point for us. It will take a lot of time and demonstrated changed patterns of behavior before Matt can begin to feel safe, I'm sure. But at least he has more than just my word, "I won't cheat again." Instead, he gets, "I'm doing everything possible to minimize my risk of cheating again - here's how and why I think this will be effective." I'd love to say I'll never cheat again - I believe that to be true - but I know it's a meaningless guarantee to both Matt and I because I never thought I would be vulnerable to having an affair in the first place.


And this is what I think is just so important - I would so much love to have this. You're absolutely right that it in it self is a meaningless guarantee, because we BS know that you shouldn't take anything for granted and that no guarantees are given - and for me, I don't want any guarantees either, but the effort and process in change is, to me, a huge sign of intentions.

What has she done to rebuilt trust? I don't remember having outlined it before, so here it goes:

* She stopped the affair - had troubles maintaining NC the first 3 months or so.
* She gave me her logins etc. (I didn't really need them because I was able to monitor her 360 degrees if necessary) 8 months past DD under great pressure, when I handed her my NUTS. She felt humiliated doing so.
* She has shown many efforts in recreating our couples activities - it is me that isn't all receptive of her efforts.
* I got a written apology stating that she was acted stupid this summer (unfortunately just 3 days before she chose to go on a vacation with her toxic friend and her kids - could be interpretated as a make-up for this trip)
* She wished to create a new symbol of our connection doing the love lock thing on our anniversary. 
* She has almost eliminated her flirting nature in social settings.
* She has stepped up regarding financials, working more hours in a job she hates, she also take more responsibilty in reducing spendings (these things were all on me pre-affair, so this is something I have noticed and appreciated) 



Mrs_Mathias said:


> And I agree with bfree that your issues stated above are linked. How could you possibly feel any depth of love when you are busy protecting yourself from your wife? If she can do the work necessary for you to feel safer, and if you can let that affect you, I think it is possible for your feelings to strengthen beyond basic care. At some point, you do have to let her in, but she has to earn that trust. I hope she is doing more to help you and she reach that point.


I know I have to let her in - she has reduced her loving actions as well now that she has realized that I'm on hold - either to protect herself or in order to force me in, I don't know, but it doesn't work for me. I need introspection on her side.



calvin said:


> Cpacan,
> Sorry you have to deal with those feelings,its not fair too you after a couple years.
> I really think she should be ressuring you and showing you she's working hard
> on getting as much trust back as she can.
> Its hard to trust again........very hard.I can identify with thinking the marriage was
> one big joke,I don't feel that way too much anymore.
> I get questioning love,I don't want to get hurt again but I'll take the chance.
> What is she doing to make you wonder about the love and trust?
> What is she not doing to make you question her commitment to you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like I said above, I need to know that she knows where and why she chose the wrong path. If the only thing keeping her from cheating on me again is knowing how much pain she caused, I have to remind her all the time, so she doesn't forget - and that is neither productive nor desireable to any of us.


----------



## soulpotato

Said goodbye to the first home I ever bought yesterday (closing finally happened). It was sad, but DS didn't want to live there again with so many bad memories, so my primary reason for selling it was so we could find another place together at some point. (Later, even more reasons came up to sell it, so it really worked out for the best, even had DS felt she could go back and not be haunted.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Cpacan, I know we've covered this before but I'll say it again. She's highly unlikely to do it on her own. If you don't impress upon her the importance of these things you need you will not get them. I honestly know very few that would voluntarily subject themselves to extreme and painful introspection on their own if the could avoid it. You say that you are now prepared for and see the possibility of divorce but what have your actions showed your wife? Obviously she doesn't see you ever leaving so what is her incentive to do the hard work necessary in order to reassure you that she has had the epiphany that you so crave? Sadly and as unfair as it is the burden is on you to force the changes you need or to end the marriage if you cannot live with the status quo.


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## Mr Blunt

> *Quote by cpacan*
> Working on the one person I can control, is what I do - a lot actually.


That is what I was suggesting. Congratulations, that should pay off big time for you.


Cpacan, I am still puzzled by your statement below in your answering the question of “what is the worst thing that could happen if she betrays you again? “ You answered 


> I would feel like a complete idiot, and I would lose my remaining faith in human decency.


*Aren’t your thoughts about yourself and the decency in humans your ability to control?*


I have been in your shoes regarding being betrayed. If my wife betrayed me again I would not feel like a “compete idiot”. I would be hurt but not devastated like the first time. Furthermore, I would feel that I went beyond the call of duty and gave her a second chance and now she has blown that. I would not feel good about the 2nd betrayal but would feel good that I give her a second chance. I could walk away knowing that I am guilt free, proud of my actions, and looking to improve my life elsewhere. In other words, my wife lowering herself to a 2nd betrayal would not make me feel like an idiot or loose my faith in human decency. *My wife does not control my self esteem or my views on decency for all humanity*.

My wife is a very important part of my life but she is not everything in my life. I do not want her to betray me again but if she does I know now that she will not take away my self esteem or keep me down for very long.

I have made decisions and taken actions since D-Day 1 to build my self up body, mind, and spirit and am no longer naive. I have adjusted and would much prefer to live with my wife but I can live a good life without her. I am fortunate in that I have a lot of people (mostly family) that love me, and have been loyal to me all my life. Even though they area great help to me I do believe that my actions in building myself up have also made a big difference in being able to pursue the positive things in life.


*I am glad that you are working on yourself a lot; that will help you if you R or D. *


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## CantSitStill

The worst thing about all of this is that we both will suffer daily for my sin. It doesn't disappear. Whether we R or D.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> *byCSS*______________________________________The worst thing about all of this is that we both will *suffer daily* for my sin. It* doesn't disappear*. Whether we R or D.


*Your are right CSS it does not disappear but if done correctly it will be very faded and weak.*

I know that you people that are in the first year or two of R are prone to be overwhelmed by the betrayal. However, know this; if you keep doing what will improve the situation for years the betrayal does not control your life, does not keep you from having a good life, can bring about R or in the case of D, will allow you to NOT suffer daily, weekly, or monthly.

In other words keep persevering and doing the right things and you will have a bright light at the end of your R or D. *Betrayal does not have to destroy your life, keep you in a depressed mood, or make you suffer daily!!!*

There is a lot of hope if done correctly


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## CantSitStill

Thank you Mr Blunt. Love everything you post. I'm hangin on. It drives me crazy that I cannot change the past but yes I can take care of today and the days that come.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I might post later about some things.....I might not.
Depends,head is a cluster fvck right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

When he triggers...ok well today was rough. He texted me the ex om's phone number and told me to call him. It made me pretty upset that he said that. Very upset, to where I stayed on the couch hating myself all day instead of getting my check cashed and going grocery shopping and taking care of the laundry and house. I sat here and did not even do my hair or makeup. I felt like I couldn't do anything. I had no motivation at all. I felt like I didn't wanna even exist anymore. I finally went grocery shopping without doijg my hair or makeup. Don't care what people think. I have been working a lot and felt good about contributing financially. Now it is hard to find a reason to get anything done. It kills me that I have ruined calvin's life. It's like humpty dumpty..I can't put him back together again. I have tried.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

Calvin I don't post on TAM much any more but I have to ask you - give me your reasons for texting CSS the OMs phone number and telling her to call him.

Glad to see you are in the holiday spirit - NOT !!


----------



## larry.gray

:iagree:

Come on man. Yes, you've been hurt. But it's past the time where that is OK.


----------



## CantSitStill

There is no time limit to where he should just " get over it ". But I just don't know if I can feel possitive when he comes back around and says he is for sure about us and that he knows we belong together and that he really means it that he is past all of the negative thoughts because I have heard that from him a lot only to find out later that he still is unsure about us. His moods are making me feel crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

CantSitStill said:


> There is no time limit to where he should just " get over it ".


No, he won't "get over it." You most definetly do not deserve to be able to ever say "get over it." But that's not what this is, and not what you're asking for.



CantSitStill said:


> But I just don't know if I can feel possitive when he comes back around and says he is for sure about us and that he knows we belong together and that he really means it that he is past all of the negative thoughts because I have heard that from him a lot only to find out later that he still is unsure about us. His moods are making me feel crazy.


Doing what he did is abusive. If you were un-remorseful, if you were still trying to hurt him, then maybe it would be OK. But you're not, so it's not OK.


----------



## calvin

I'm abusive.
Ok,I give up then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

calvin said:


> I'm abusive.
> Ok,I give up then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With all due respect, yes. This is a case of tough love. I'm pulling for both of you. She hurt you, and I'm sure it is wanting to hurt her back. You knew that would be incredibly painful for her to read. 

But that's not what you do to people you love. 

This isn't the end of the world. Next time resolve not to do things like that anymore. Cuss, yell.... let it out. But don't aim such cold things at her.


----------



## CantSitStill

I said you are not abusing me. Stop with that attitude! I mean it. Calvin you do not mean what you are saying and you really need to calm down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

He said he gives up but I will not believe that right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Calvin, I love ya but if you don't cut the crap I'm gonna bust a cap in your azz.

Sorry, I was channeling my inner gangsta.


----------



## user_zero

calvin said:


> I'm abusive.
> Ok,I give up then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you wanna give up? are you trying to reverse the emotional state of relationship back to where it was at the time of EA, so you could leave (give up) and feel good about it?

Calvin , I ask these questions because honestly I don't understand what was the point of sending CSS that text.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



user_zero said:


> you wanna give up? are you trying to reverse the emotional state of relationship back to where it was at the time of EA, so you could leave (give up) and feel good about it?
> 
> Calvin , I ask these questions because honestly I don't understand what was the point of sending CSS that text.


I think I understand. Calvin is hurting, that's obvious. Sometimes when we hurt we say hurtful things. And I think Calvin still wrestles with the disbelief that CSS did what she did because it's so unlike her. What he needs to understand is that what happened was a perfect storm that combined ignorance, selfishness and massive confusion. CSS had learned and grown. She is no longer ignorant as to how these things start. She is no longer selfish as her actions have proven. And she is no longer confused as to the damage affairs can cause. What happened before can never happen again because the circumstances and the people are different. Calvin knows this on a conscious level but he still had to accept it setup inside his heart. He will. It'll just take time.


----------



## calvin

Ok,I was fine yesterday morning at work til she texted me.
She would text one or two word answers back to me,the text were far apart,
All I could think about was how whe would blow me off in order to talk/text with him.
Everything snowballed from there,I started thinking about how two years ago
for the first time in years I sat home alone on turkey day because she would not
let me have it or have my family over,she put a stop to birthday parties for my parents.
Then I just lost all control I had left,I could not stop going back to two years ago when
she was in the thick of the A,me sleeping at homeless shelter,having to sleep upstairs for two months
While she talked to him while I was home,not touching me,no hugs.....nothing.
How she lied to me over and over....I'm not looking for sympathy,I don't want any,I've
been on my own since I was 17 and I am no pvssy.
This coming January will be when I finally forced a confession out of her after I got her drunk.
That night I gave her the choice,me or him...so she fired me as her husband and left to be with him.
The next day she still would'nt come back,said she wanted him and was moving in with him.
All these memories came back yesterday in a tital wave and hit me hard.
Sometimes I still think she has left things out about her A.
I wonder sometimes if a D and a fresh start with someone new would take some
of this crap away in my head.
I feel like a loser at family get togethers,I hear the whispers,see the looks and wonder what
they think about me,most of her family doesn't know anything about what happend.
I didn't drink yesterday,allthose thoughts got a stranglehold on me and I just could'nt
break free.
When I agreed to a D and got a lawyer she'd freak and tell me we were going to be alright,I'd drop the D
and she would go back to being unGodly cruel again,this happend a few times.
I apologized to CSS and I apologize to all of you on here,I'm sorry for acting the
way I did.
I want peace of mind,I want to believe 100% this will never happen again,thank God the
FB msg's ,text and calls from the POS have stopped,I think threatening to sue his boss
and company finally made them put a stop to him,I still wanta peice of him though.
A revenge affair has been on my mind but it would destroy her and my family,
I know a lot of people would get hurt,I thought about it but never came close
to acting on it.
All I can do is try harder and when I'm feeling like crap just keep my big mouth shut
and not act on the first things that come to my mind.
Before her A I did push for MC,brought home articles for us to read but she did'nt want any off it.
I have never called her a wh0re,b!tch or anything of the sorts.
I will be asking CSS to make me an appointment for IC tomorrow,it can't hurt.
I'm ashamed of the way I acted yesterday.
All I can do is try harder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

Calvin
I admire your transparency!!

However, since you have made it clear that you and CSS want to R, *I would like to suggest, as soon as you can, to reassure CSS that she is a worthy woman and you love her.*


It is understandable that you would be triggered and hurt again but bringing up the horrible things that CSS did is very unproductive and harmful to CSS. From what I have read about CSS she is very remorseful and trying to make it up to you and herself every way she can.


You probably have already thought of this but just in case you need a reminder I am posting this message to you.


----------



## calvin

Yes,I want this to work,I love her but I'm afraid to allow my self all the way in.
I can't do go through that again and she doesn't deserve to be in this position.
There are doctors appointments she needs to make for herself,I give up on thinking
she will make them,our dog needs to go back to the vet again and she still has not made
The appointment despite me asking for two weeks,dog is getting worse.
I don't know what to do.
The holidays just flat out remind me of pain,I know I need to get through that somehow?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Well she is in a new job and just getting used to working full time. I think I'd cut her a little slack if she forgets to make a couple of appointments. As for it happening again, nope...for all the reasons I already mentioned. As for letting her back in, it takes time. Just don't give up and realize that you're both making progress. I see it. I'd bet others here see it. Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.


----------



## CantSitStill

Yeah I keep forgetting to call the vet. Gonna write that down. As for my own appointments, I have a hard time seeing doctors with my crazh schedule. I will be allowed to request to come in late soon. Not allowed till I have worked 90 days. As for what calvin said, there are a few things he said that made me want to correct but I will let it be. I may not have planned on moving in and a dew other things he wrote but he made a lot of good points and most of it is true and yeah real bad stuff I pulled. Being reminded hurts and makes me wish Ihad never started all that crap. I went to church this morning and feel so much better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Btw...Pidge? How are you and Joe doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

There's a few things I have asked of her that are easy to do,I've been patient but
have asked a few times.
These are'nt even "needs" for me but they are important.
I'm sorry but it makes me think of how much I can depend on her.
It aslo makes me feel like I'm not really listend to.
I have her back on housework every day when I come home,it just makes me
feel like I......nevermind,need to stay off of here the rest of the day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Sorry guys, please continue on with the thread. I shouldn't have hijacked it like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

CantSitStill said:


> Sorry guys, please continue on with the thread. I shouldn't have hijacked it like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You never hijacked it, you were on topic.


----------



## happyman64

calvin said:


> Ok,I was fine yesterday morning at work til she texted me.
> She would text one or two word answers back to me,the text were far apart,
> *Triggers Calvin. These are triggers.*
> 
> I wonder sometimes if a D and a fresh start with someone new would take some of this crap away in my head.
> *Only you can take this crap out of your head. And these bad thoughts will be there no matter who you are with Calvin.*
> 
> I feel like a loser at family get togethers,I hear the whispers,see the looks and wonder what they think about me,most of her family doesn't know anything about what happened.
> *Who cares what others think. Especially family. Don't you have some crazy women on that side anyways??? All that matters is what you think and CSS thinks.*
> 
> I apologized to CSS and I apologize to all of you on here,I'm sorry for acting the way I did. I have no doubt CSS
> *You have no one to apologize too. You are actively working on your issues and I do not think you have to apologize to anyone. Period. But you do have to clearly communicate to CSS what is causing the triggers and why. You have to work as a Team*
> 
> I want peace of mind,I want to believe 100% this will never happen again,thank God the FB msg's ,text and calls from the POS have stopped,I think threatening to sue his boss
> and company finally made them put a stop to him,I still wanta peice of him though.
> 
> *Only you can give you peace of mind Calvin. CSS cannot do that for you but she can help you get there.*
> A revenge affair has been on my mind but it would destroy her and my family,
> I know a lot of people would get hurt,I thought about it but never came close
> to acting on it.
> 
> *Good because this will hurt you more than anyone.*
> 
> I will be asking CSS to make me an appointment for IC tomorrow,it can't hurt.
> I'm ashamed of the way I acted yesterday.
> All I can do is try harder.
> *Keep trying buddy. Louis wouldn't expect any less from you and neither would I.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

I'm sorry you guys are going through a rough spot Calvin and CSS. I know you're triggering Calvin but remember this isn't the same CSS from the past, this is CSS v2.0. And I can tell you starting a new job while going through R can be hard, with all the altering to routines, daily habits, and amount of time together. I wish you two nothing but the best. Sending you both my prayers tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

We haven't gone out by ourselves for a long time. We have decided that since we both have a long weekend coming up we are gonna go to our favorite mexican resteraunt . I need to get away from home and get my mind off work. I believe us going out will help us both to re-set, communicate and rekindle our love. We depend on each other to get thrubthe craziness of our extended families. We both support eachother when it comes to the family bs on both his and my side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

We have been out but no where near enough.
We had a good talk,I huged her and told her how sorry I was for yesterday the best way
I know how.
I never went over the edge like I did yesterday.
Can't stand myself for doing that.
Good nght and thank you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

Glad to hear it calvin! I wish you two the best.


----------



## soulpotato

Calvin & CSS, sorry to hear you guys going through something so painful.  I don't know what to say, other than...we just have to make the best choices we can with the information that we have. After that, you've got to let go. Control over other people is an illusion. Control over life is an illusion.

In case anyone is interested, DS and I are doing well and will be spending Thanksgiving together. We also have a trip planned in December. She says her feelings are getting stronger and she's looking forward to when we can live together again. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> In case anyone is interested, DS and I are doing well and will be spending Thanksgiving together. We also have a trip planned in December. She says her feelings are getting stronger and she's looking forward to when we can live together again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's great SP! Hope you two have a great holiday together. Trips away from home are a great. Get to put the problems aside for a little bit and just have fun and connect. Glad to hear things are going pretty well for you and DS! Rooting for you SP! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

For our Thanksgiving me and RTBP will be heading back home to celebrate with my family. Can't wait to see my all my family again. Get to see my little niece and nephew, haven't seen them since last Christmas and then I was distracted with all this. Also my brother is bringing his fiance. Plus a my aunt and a few cousins, we're gonna have a packed house 

I took the liberty of inviting RTBP's sister and mom over for dinner on Thursday. He was a bit annoyed at that but to be fair he has been working on forgiving her and was talking about finally reaching out and seeing her over the holiday. 

PS....I am DYING for a cheesesteak!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs. T

Calvin and CSS...I used to be on here 24/7 when my husband and I were having some issues and I have to say this, TAM helped me a lot but after a while I realized that I needed to distance myself from it as the continual rehashing of issues was not letting me heal emotionally. I could not let go and forgive him when I was constantly being reminded of what happened. I'm just wondering if this could be why you seem to make forward strides and then go back to being unsure of your feelings. Maybe the two of you need to limit your time on TAM and focus on healing.

I hope no one takes this wrong, TAM is a great and helpful tool but there is a time when a couple needs to take control of their relationship on their own.


----------



## calvin

Mrs. T said:


> Calvin and CSS...I used to be on here 24/7 when my husband and I were having some issues and I have to say this, TAM helped me a lot but after a while I realized that I needed to distance myself from it as the continual rehashing of issues was not letting me heal emotionally. I could not let go and forgive him when I was constantly being reminded of what happened. I'm just wondering if this could be why you seem to make forward strides and then go back to being unsure of your feelings. Maybe the two of you need to limit your time on TAM and focus on healing.
> 
> I hope no one takes this wrong, TAM is a great and helpful tool but there is a time when a couple needs to take control of their relationship on their own.


 I do go days without posting,its hard to talk to anyone around me about this,at least here I
Can let it out and get advice or be called out for being a bonehead and put in my place.
Holidays can be a trigger,many things that I never gave much of a thought about now sometimes
bother me.
Today I feel fine,its weird.
A big trigger is CSS once in awhile,that's a rought one but also a source of comfort.
I know I'll bet there,I know I'm trying like hell,some may not believe it or see it but I am.

I think this weekend we will go to the casino instead of out to eat,I know how much she loves
my money.
She loves me, know that.
I need to have more of a grip on myself and that's something I started working on yesterday.
I don't think any of us here on both sides of the coin would have thought we'd be in this
position ever.
I think others here probably feel a lot of what I feel sometimes,the only difference is
I'm vocal about it and I don't think that's a good thing.
My mood affects CSS a lot more than I thought.
I promise I'm working on everything hard,I know CSS is and so are others here.
Maybe I'm just weird,I don't know.

I do appreciate all of you.
EI,thanks for the PM yesterday,it helped more than you know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> That's great SP! Hope you two have a great holiday together. Trips away from home are a great. Get to put the problems aside for a little bit and just have fun and connect. Glad to hear things are going pretty well for you and DS! Rooting for you SP!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, FG.  Looks like you have a lot planned for the holiday! Don't wear yourself out too much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> Thanks, FG.  Looks like you have a lot planned for the holiday! Don't wear yourself out too much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh please she's gonna love every minute of it. She loves the family gatherings. I on the other hand will be busy hanging out with FG's brother and some other friends from HS.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Hey Calvin glad you're doing better now man. Those triggers can be a b###h. A brief TAM hiatus might not be so bad at some point. I had to take a couple of them already, they do help me take my mind of it somewhat for short periods of time.


----------



## CantSitStill

The problem is not with calvin posting on TAM but it is the amount of time he reads threads that he shouldn't. He reads some real bad ones that trigger him. I know this because I follow him. I don't do any threads but this one and ours. Reading other peoples infidelity problems will drive ya crazy and it is nearly impossible to heal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

CantSitStill said:


> The problem is not with calvin posting on TAM but it is the amount of time he reads threads that he shouldn't. He reads some real bad ones that trigger him. I know this because I follow him. I don't do any threads but this one and ours. Reading other peoples infidelity problems will drive ya crazy and it is nearly impossible to heal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Trust me I know. It can be hard resisting reading other threads sometimes. When I reach a point where I feel I need to stop reading a few threads or if one triggers me enough I just stay away entirely for a bit. A day, a few days, a week, 2 weeks, whatever. It's a bit easier...for me at least.


----------



## Forever Grateful

I hope everyone is ready to have a great Thanksgiving! Our flight to Philly leaves early tomorrow morning. Which meant we had to take our dogs to the kennel tonight.  RTBP waited until I got off work so I could go with him and say goodbye to my lovelies. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



CantSitStill said:


> The problem is not with calvin posting on TAM but it is the amount of time he reads threads that he shouldn't. He reads some real bad ones that trigger him. I know this because I follow him. I don't do any threads but this one and ours. Reading other peoples infidelity problems will drive ya crazy and it is nearly impossible to heal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it makes you or Calvin feel any better there are some threads on TAM that trigger me big time. Some days I'll read something here and I'll stop myself from posting anywhere because I'll be so worked up I know I'll say something wrong or hurtful. I love TAM and the good that comes from it but it really is s double edged sword.


----------



## bfree

I want to wish everyone a wonderful thanksgiving holiday. Let's all think about those things we should be thankful for and put aside any negative thoughts. We truly have been blessed.


----------



## calvin

I have'nt been reading much in CWI at all really,this time of year just brings back
a lot of hurtful feelings right now but the positives do outweigh the negatives.
Wish I was having turkey day,I've had everyone at my house for Thanksgiving every
year for the last 15 years except twice,I'm not going to miss all the work though.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

It's now been exactly a year and a half since the Affair ended.

We are doing very well. We communicate like never before, honestly and openly saying what's on our minds. 

I am expressing love and feeling it for the first time in my life, EI is, well, still EI, loving, kind and compassionate. She is a lot more self aware and though she still hurts from her choice, she is doing better. 

I still struggle from time to time, the past month has been a little tough, nothing like a year ago though. I had moved to the emotional part of their relationship, allowing that to bother and worry me. Again, this is nothing like before, it comes and goes. Sometimes I talk to EI about it sometimes I'm able to let it go. Either way it passes and I move on.

For the most part though we are moving forward in a very positive and loving way. We are planning on starting back to
some MC and IC because we want things to be even better, we still need to address some things pre-A, nothing serious,
just issues for us to work on as a married couple. It's almost nice to sometimes have issues and it not be about the A.

Our love has grown by leaps and bounds, EI did completely fall out of love with me and I never really expressed emotional love to her.
Now, we fall all over each other, we are in many ways like newlyweds. It's wonderful, and she is wonderful, and I am lucky to have her, and yes, she is lucky to have me too! 

You wrap up everything EI has done in her life from beginning to now and you will see a very kind, wonderful, caring person. Her A was 
a fall, a huge collapse. As she has had said more than once, without me she is lost and broken and that's exactly what happened the years leading up to the A. She definitely lost me long before I lost her. I was always her plan A and when that could not be she went for a plan B, and she will forever regret that choice. I now believe I may get over it before she will. Though I don't think you ever really get over it, it just falls into the past and fades away. I think it becomes a distant memory, a fact without a sting. I guess it's hard to really say though, guess I will find out. 

I cannot wait to marry EI again next year on our 30th anniversary. 
I love her so much and I know she loves me just as much and that's a great feeling.

She has had a small emotional wall up for a while, it's now coming down and she is becoming vulnerable again, it's scary for her, I know. But she has nothing to worry about, I am here, love, emotions, and no walls and I am staying because I choose too and besides, I can't help myself anyway.

I have finished several more books, one being Unbroken others, Lone survivor and American sniper. All have helped in some way.
Unbroken especially, talk about enduring hardship and suffering....and if that man can forgive anyone can. 

Life is good..

I hope everyone has a safe and great Thanksgiving!

B1 out...


----------



## soulpotato

B1, beautiful post! DS has always been my "plan A", too, even if I made her doubt that.  Going to show her until there's no doubt, and keep on going after that. 

Thank you for the Thanksgiving wishes. I hope you and EI have a great time, too! 

I wish the same to all the R thread folks, and Bfree, you're right, we have a lot to be thankful for. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Wow so much going on. Holiday's bring out the worse of our emotions, the worst of our words. Remember the tools we have for coping and getting through the Holiday season.

On another note, today we went to meet with the DA and he released copies of the company paperwork so we can get taxes prepared. Can you imagine how thick that stack could be? Well they released a stack for me and WH. My attorney, his attorney and an associate get their own stacks too. I took pictures I had too this is so very much a clear example of gov waste. 

I was very excited to see if we did indeed get the copies we would need, I am betting there are no copies of receipts. So as I start to go through it the very first papers are printed copies of texts messages from his phone. Well guess what? It is our private conversation; it is very clear there is a problem in this marriage and what the problem is. So in the next few days both our attorneys and the associate are going to know. The DA’s office and every police officer that worked this case know about it, not to mention whoever they told. I may as well take out an ad in the city newspaper. Talk about a trigger. If this goes to trial it will become public knowledge. I cannot live with this, He has said he will plead the case out and close the business if it goes to trial. I simply laughed and said, “no way, this is what you wanted, this was something you worked very hard to build and it was your dream. By no means will you close this because of me. No you just keep getting your needs met, you’ve all ready gone to great lengths to get this regardless of anyone else: so why should this be any different?” See Calin you are not alone in being able to lash out. 
Oh it was so nice to hear him say “to protect you.” But they are just words and after all his actions I find it very hard to place any trust in anything he has to say at this point. Funny thing is I sometimes feel I am coming to the point where I just don’t care anymore. I have nothing to tie me to anyone place or anyone right now. If I had my car I could very easily drive away for however long. (I would come back this is still my home and those are my dogs.) This is just part of what I am dealing with today. There is more but only posting one thing at a time. I am going to enjoy being in “my” kitchen today, turning the music up very loud, cracking a bottle of whiskey and doing what I enjoy the most even if no one will be here this years to eat it. Happy, Happy Thanksgiving Everyone.....


----------



## calvin

The book "Unbroken" has helped me a lot B1,I read it twice and read a few passages today
at work, I had to borrow it back from a buddy at work,book is getting a little worn.
It's a crutch for me.
Thanks again Hm.
I'm getting there,its taking forever but I know things will be fine.
Busy day today but I have thought about things to be thankful for.
I'm losing count.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Regret214

EI said:


> Oh, I remember that well.....  It was difficult to read and to watch play out. But, I happen to know that Dig and Regret are doing well and moving forward in their reconciliation and that good things are happening in their lives!


Thank you, EI.... We are moving forward, but the reality is that we will be forever haunted by memories, and my failures at honesty when it was most needed will be there for Dig. There is so much I wish I had done differently, and can only share my mistakes with others in need to right my wrongs.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of B1
> For the most part though we are moving forward in a very positive and loving way. We are planning on starting back to some MC and IC because we want things to be even better, we still need to address some things pre-A, nothing serious


So refreshing to see such a positive post. In addition, so glad to see B1 and EI taking extra steps to keep the R going!




*



I am lucky to have her, and yes, she is lucky to have me too! 

Click to expand...

**Such a healthy sounding statement!*





> Quote of B1
> Though I don't think you ever really get over it, it just falls into the past and fades away. I think it becomes a distant memory, a fact without a sting. I guess it's hard to really say though, guess I will find out.


You are right B1, you never really get over but it is kind of like my girlfriend in Junior high. I thought she was real crazy for me until the number one hunk of the school ask her to go to the fair with him. She never looked my way again all through our teen years. That hurt like hell for a few years but now it is so far faded way that I have to be reminded of it and it has lost its sting. It does help that she tried to get back with me after I was married. It was fun turning her down Hee Hee

I know it is not very interesting to most in R that the incident can get a LOT better after many (more than 1-2 years) years. Unsolicited thought about the affair are non existent. *Just remember that the A does not have to ruin your life and you do not have to have all consuming pain for the rest of your lives.*


B1 you just described my condition after many years of R


----------



## happyman64

You are welcome Calvin. Great update B1. 

And yes the story Unbroken makes some of our issues pale in comparison to what Louis Zamperini overcame. 

He is 95 or 96 this year by the way. 

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. 

HM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone.
Hope you are all ok. 
EI thank you for your pm. 
Calvin and CSS hope you are doing better.
Thank you everyone else for your support of late.

Well. I'm moving out!
I have the keys to a rental property a and in slowly going to move my things out over this month and move in in January.
The last 2 weeks have been really bad and if we carry on like this we are going to end up hating each other and that's something neither of us want.
I'm feeling surprisingly positive now about the future. I need some space and I need to make a fresh start. We aren't divorcing and we are still going to be a family for our kids, just not under the same roof.
This has all happened in the last few days so i think I'm still in shock to be honest but I know in my heart I am doing the right thing for all of us.

I still love and care for him dearly, I always will, but the bottom line is the trust has gone. We both have so much to deal with that we can't do it together we both need our space. I can't spend the rest of my life wondering if he is going to fall in and out of love with me every 6 months. I'm worth more than that and I deserve more.

Who knows what will happen in the future. But for now this is the way it has to be.
This month is going to be a tough one but I'm trying to stay positive and think how my life will be in 6 months time. Hopefully in a calmer, more stable place. No more crying. I've cried for nearly 3 years. It's just enough.

So I hope you're not going to kick me off the thread because we are not in 'R' anymore!!!'
Thanks all
Much love
DG
Xxx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Just to add I've questioned over the months and it has been talked about everywhere on TAM, when do you know when it's over!
Well my defining moment was on Saturday.
My 17 year old had been out all day for a friends birthday Go carting. All the other dads went, hubby didn't. After the to carting they were all going tongi tongue local pub for a couple of games of pool and a beer. (UK remember). My son txt his dad to ask if it was ok for him to go and he said no. He was the only kid that wasn't allowed to go. Not even to have a couple of cokes. When my son came home his dad went completely over the top and went on and in at him about wasting his life etc etc. He made him cry! 
That was it! 
My husband has always been a good, loving, easy going dad and to see him behave like that to my lovely boy was the end of the line.
Of course his anger and frustration was misdirected but it was enough for me to realise that we couldn't go on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Daisy,thank you for thinkng of us,yes we are doing better.
Its not really in CSS's hands any more,she has done almost all she can..almost.
Its up to me to do more for us,she's a damn good girl and I won't lose her because
Of me being an idiot.
I'm sorry about what you're going through,what you just described is rough.

What your husband did to his son was very wrong...ugh.
How do you know when you're done? Well I guess when you have no feelings towords your
spouse or even worse when you know you don't love or have any feelngs,or even negative feelings.
You'll know in your heart and in your head daisy if its over.
Ask yourself ...are you better off with him or without him.
I'm very sorry you are going through all this crap but I can tell you are strong and
and you will come out of this a lot stronger,your a good woman,you tried....hard.
Take care and Happy Turkey day daisy.
God bless you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

B1 and EI are a great example of how two people can find eachother and love again.
They do give me motivation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

calvin said:


> B1 and EI are a great example of how two people can find eachother and love again.
> They do give me motivation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, I couldn't think of two better people than EI and B1 to be your role models and motivation to continue on your path with CSS.

Hope you both had a great Thanksgiving as well as wishing all those here on TAM in the USA the same.


----------



## CantSitStill

I have actually told EI on the phone a long time ago that I look up to her as a role model and she was surprised because she felt the same about me..it doesn't matter how many months or years in R you have. What matters is how you work on being a better person. I was like B1 also. I had walls put up and would onlyallow myself to be vulnerable around children because children always make me feel safe. I now communicate better with calvin. I do not run from conflict. I have allowed myself to be more affectionate and it has made a world of a difference. I love him and no longer resent him because I now see the love he has for me. I feel like a healthier and happier person. No more depression, no more low self esteem and no more blaming calvin for my problems. I thank God that I have him every day. To think I almost lost him...wow. I do have to say tho. He has also made a lot of changes to make our marriage better and way less stressful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Regret214 said:


> Thank you, EI.... We are moving forward, but the reality is that we will be forever haunted by memories, and my failures at honesty when it was most needed will be there for Dig. There is so much I wish I had done differently, and can only share my mistakes with others in need to right my wrongs.


So how are you two doing? I hope that you and Dig and ALL the posters had a great Turkey Day. Mine was about as weird as it could be. I had Turkey with Sweetie and the kids, then I went to my GF's and had it again, then went back to Sweetie's for leftovers and then went home and GF brought over leftovers to snack on. Personally, I don't care if I see another piece of Turkey until next year , if then.


----------



## Horizon

Recon is BS


----------



## bfree

Horizon said:


> Recon is BS


You clearly need a hug.



Cat Hugs Stuffed Animal - YouTube


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Rookie
> So how are you two doing? I hope that you and Dig and ALL the posters had a great Turkey Day. Mine was about as weird as it could be. I had Turkey with Sweetie and the kids, then I went to my GF's and had it again, then went back to Sweetie's for leftovers and then went home and GF brought over leftovers to snack on. Personally, I don't care if I see another piece of Turkey until next year , if then.


*I agree Rookie, your turkey-day was about as weird as it could be!*


----------



## Refuse to be played

Hope everyone enjoyed Thanksgiving. I pigged out yesterday!


----------



## CantSitStill

Rookie, are you back with the girlfriend from right before you and sweetie got back together?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

And if so..is GF worried or jealous of you and Sweetie?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

The depth of how CSS worries about others and cares for people down on their
luck amazes me.
Good woman she is.Very classy lady.
I'm her tool when she alerts me to someone who needs some help.
Ok....wait a minute,that came out wrong,I'm not her tool per say...I'm more
Of a guy who......
Nevermind.....I'm her tool.
Happy to be it too.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I am a worrier, I tend to feel other people's pain to the point where I cry easily when I find out someone is going thru a tragedy. It may be a gift, sortof like having the heart of Jesus inside of me but it also sometimes feels like a burden. Now I feel guilty for saying it's a burden. Don't mean it like that. It's just that I stress easily...whether it's someone close to me or someone I hardly know. I feel so blessed and wish everyone out there was as blessed as I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Once long ago I received a monitary gift right before Christmas. I still have no idea who it was that gave it. I want to pay it forward..without them knowing where it came from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

You have a good heart CSS. You and FG seem to have that in common. Very empathic, compassionate, caring and optimistic. We balance each other out with me being a bit of pessimist.


----------



## calvin

Anyone believe in ghost?
I think ours is back,its been awhile but it seems to be here again.
CSS saw the lock turn from the inside of the house,its been awhile but 
I have seen things also.
Gonna evict it unless it pays me rent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

The guy who grew up here lived next door for awhile,we are friends.
He moved to California but him and his wife told me things about this place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> Rookie, are you back with the girlfriend from right before you and sweetie got back together?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One of them, yes. I'm not gonna say which one, until she says it's OK to mention her.


----------



## Rookie4

CantSitStill said:


> And if so..is GF worried or jealous of you and Sweetie?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jealous? I hope not. I won't give her any reason to be. I hate to say it, but this is where I should have been two years ago. since I


----------



## soulpotato

Maybe it's strange, but I don't feel welcome on this thread anymore. I feel like I'm not wanted here, and I'm not really sure why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> Maybe it's strange, but I don't feel welcome on this thread anymore. I feel like I'm not wanted here, and I'm not really sure why.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I certainly don't feel that way. I look forward to your posts here and elsewhere on TAM. When you post seeking advice or just to vent I try to respond when I can. But by that time usually someone else has already responded and said what I would have said. I'm accessing TAM on my phone more than my computer so it's difficult to navigate this site and make longer involved posts.

Did you make a longer post earlier this morning? I was going to respond when I got to a computer.


----------



## calvin

Sp,you are a valuable part of this thread,you've given me support and advice
And sometimes just listen to me vent.
Don't leave the thread and if anyone told you you're not welcomed here the hell
with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Bfree, yes, I made a longer post last night but deleted it this morning.

Thank you, Calvin. You too, Bfree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Soulpotato...I vent here without expecting a response. Sorry that I misssd your post. Please pm me anytime. I mean it! Anytime. I miss our private messages. It felt good to talk to someone that is somewhat like me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Most of the time when I post, even venting, I'm also hoping for feedback. Navigating relationships is challenging for me at the best of times, even more so in R and dealing with so much damage, and any help or perspective I can get with that is very valuable to me. It is REALLY hard when my emotions get loud. I don't typically lose control anymore, but I can feel when I've reached my limit. My gaze fixes on some point in space, but unfocused, and I literally stop being able to hear. Like someone has wrapped a blanket around my head. I have to keep fighting back to the surface. It's depressing, because I feel ill-equipped to deal with such problems as DS and I sometimes have, even as "fixed-broken". I'm not willing to give up, but I have needs as well, and I become very lost when they are flat out denied and/or one of these toxic throwback situations occurs. I don't know why DS can't hear me. I feel anything but important to her right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I have said before what you don't want to hear SP. She may not be right for you. It is not ok for her to treat you that way. Whether you cheated or not. It is just not working. It sucks bexause you love her but she has a lot of work to do on herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I do hear you, CSS. You know how complicated it can be. Yes, I love her, and I'm usually pretty sure that she loves me. There's still a lot of good stuff between us. She stuck it out with me for a long time, and I won't forget that, even during these bad times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

SP, the way I see it, you are both looking to have your needs met but there is still some mistrust and hesitancy on both sides. DS is not ready to listen to you. Whether that means it's still a work in progress or that she may never get there I don't know. You have to decide what you are willing to put up with and have that clear line in your mind. I know you want to save this relationship but the question is at what cost.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi all
Having a bad day today. I'm looking forward to my new adventure but I just wish so much things had turned out differently. I don't want to be a statistic, another divorced couple, it hurts. I look at him and wonder how we got here. All the hopes and dreams gone. 

I know in my heart it can't be fixed. To much hurt, to much pain, I've not been the best wife at times and I know I've let him down and hurt him in the past, it's so hard letting go of 20 years!


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> SP, the way I see it, you are both looking to have your needs met but there is still some mistrust and hesitancy on both sides. DS is not ready to listen to you. Whether that means it's still a work in progress or that she may never get there I don't know. You have to decide what you are willing to put up with and have that clear line in your mind. I know you want to save this relationship but the question is at what cost.


Thanks, bfree. You're probably right that there's some mistrust and hesitation, but I really don't think I'm feeling it until these specific issues come up. I definitely was before, a number of months ago. As for how she feels, it's just strange, because a lot of the time these days she seems sure and as if she has a decent amount of trust in me. I do want to save it. I just hope this can be resolved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all
> Having a bad day today. I'm looking forward to my new adventure but I just wish so much things had turned out differently. I don't want to be a statistic, another divorced couple, it hurts. I look at him and wonder how we got here. All the hopes and dreams gone.
> 
> I know in my heart it can't be fixed. To much hurt, to much pain, I've not been the best wife at times and I know I've let him down and hurt him in the past, it's so hard letting go of 20 years!


DG, none of us is perfect but nothing you did or didn't do brought you to this point. Your husband made this decision without consulting you. He had steadfastly refused to do the hard work necessary to atone for his terrible choices. A marriage is between two people. You were trying to save a marriage all by yourself.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> Thanks, bfree. You're probably right that there's some mistrust and hesitation, but I really don't think I'm feeling it until these specific issues come up. I definitely was before, a number of months ago. As for how she feels, it's just strange, because a lot of the time these days she seems sure and as if she has a decent amount of trust in me. I do want to save it. I just hope this can be resolved.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope things improve SP. I pray for you both every day. Just remember that although things may be one way today they were another way yesterday. Sometimes it takes a while for perception to catch up to reality.


----------



## soulpotato

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all
> Having a bad day today. I'm looking forward to my new adventure but I just wish so much things had turned out differently. I don't want to be a statistic, another divorced couple, it hurts. I look at him and wonder how we got here. All the hopes and dreams gone.
> 
> I know in my heart it can't be fixed. To much hurt, to much pain, I've not been the best wife at times and I know I've let him down and hurt him in the past, it's so hard letting go of 20 years!


DG, this must be so hard. I can only imagine. 20 years, so long together. But Bfree is right. For whatever reason, your H just wasn't onboard with saving the M. You did your best, all that you could.  Really hope you find happiness and good things in the near future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> I hope things improve SP. I pray for you both every day. Just remember that although things may be one way today they were another way yesterday. Sometimes it takes a while for perception to catch up to reality.


Thank you. As ever, wise words. I just find it so troubling when things keep happening or being said over and over that I thought we had worked through or reached an understanding on. I want our relationship to be healthy, yet I can't get DS to come with me on some of these really important things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato...I vent here without expecting a response. Sorry that I misssd your post. Please pm me anytime. I mean it! Anytime. I miss our private messages. It felt good to talk to someone that is somewhat like me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, CSS. Anyone can PM me any time as well. No one need wait until I PM!


----------



## soulpotato

DS and I have a therapy appointment with someone this Friday. Thank goodness, because the dissonance between what I thought was real and the new and ugly perception is just killing me. I would love for someone to reframe this whole mess for me in a way that I can believe. In a way that makes sense. I just hope this therapist is decent.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> DS and I have a therapy appointment with someone this Friday. Thank goodness, because the dissonance between what I thought was real and the new and ugly perception is just killing me. I would love for someone to reframe this whole mess for me in a way that I can believe. In a way that makes sense. I just hope this therapist is decent.


 Hang in there SP,I can see you're trying pretty hard,you both are still at the early in your R.
Be patient,its hard being a BS and in quite a few cases being a WS also.
Youre a good person who is trying to make things right,you're in my prayers also,both
of you.
Dancer does not want to come back on just yet does she? I hope she does soon,it can help.
Long day for me,started work at 3:30 am,worked on my daughters car and now I still need to make
Supper.....long day but a pretty decent one.
Be much better when CSS gets home.
God I love that girl,really do.
Life is decent and getting a little bit better every day.
I better get cooking,my son is chasing the dog around the house with a bottle of hot sause.
That's not good....think he's been watching too much of the Walkind Dead!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Thanks, Calvin, I appreciate that. I am doing my best, I really am. Some days I feel like I'm juggling knives, and not very well. 

No, she hasn't said anything about getting on anytime soon. I figured she would come on only rarely, but I also wish that it were more important to her. On the other hand, I worry about her reading some of the really triggering threads. 

Haha, Calvin! You are like super dad and husband, all rolled into one! Got the apron on making dinner, but taking a break to chase the kid (chasing the dog) around the house! Sounds like the makings of a great show!


----------



## calvin

Only way I can be super is with CSS,that's where I get my strength.
My kids also.
I'm sure you know what I mean.
Now I'm duper tired.
Night ya'll.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Things haven't been so great on our front since Sunday. It started going down hill when my dad was talking to talking to RTBP and my brother and implied that since my A ended almost a year ago that he should start getting over it. Understandably that pissed RTBP off and after he told me what was said both me and my mom corrected my dad. 

My dad apologized but it didn't really help much. RTBP hasn't slept in our room since we've been back. Sunday when we got back he slept downstairs in the den. I stupidly snuck in to sleep on the other side of the couch to be with him. I still have a hard time falling back when he wants distance. He woke me up yelling the next morning. Saying I never respect his wishes to be alone or I'm always forcing myself on him and a few other things I don't want to get into here. We didn't speak much yesterday and last night he slept in the guess room with the door locked. He'll probably do the same thing again tonight as well.

We've always been together at night ever since a few nights after he came back home after Dday. Needless to say I hate it and I hate that I'm the cause of all this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Things haven't been so great on our front since Sunday. It started going down hill when my dad was talking to talking to RTBP and my brother and implied that since my A ended almost a year ago that he should start getting over it. Understandably that pissed RTBP off and after he told me what was said both me and my mom corrected my dad.
> 
> My dad apologized but it didn't really help much. RTBP hasn't slept in our room since we've been back. Sunday when we got back he slept downstairs in the den. I stupidly snuck in to sleep on the other side of the couch to be with him. I still have a hard time falling back when he wants distance. He woke me up yelling the next morning. Saying I never respect his wishes to be alone or I'm always forcing myself on him and a few other things I don't want to get into here. We didn't speak much yesterday and last night he slept in the guess room with the door locked. He'll probably do the same thing again tonight as well.
> 
> We've always been together at night ever since a few nights after he came back home after Dday. Needless to say I hate it and I hate that I'm the cause of all this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Sorry to hear this FG.
It is hard for him,I was told the same thing by a few people "get over it" I feel is the
worse thing anyone can say to a BS,it triggers the hell out of him and it can be too much
To take sometimes.
You get through it,not over it...at least for me,its hard.
Don't give up,keep showing him you love him and give him attention,a lot of it,it helps.
Hope things get better soon.
It will get better RTBP.
Hang in there brother,FG seems very true.......like CSS is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Sorry to hear this FG.
> It is hard for him,I was told the same thing by a few people "get over it" I feel is the
> worse thing anyone can say to a BS,it triggers the hell out of him and it can be too much
> To take sometimes.
> You get through it,not over it...at least for me,its hard.
> Don't give up,keep showing him you love him and give him attention,a lot of it,it helps.
> Hope things get better soon.
> It will get better RTBP.
> Hang in there brother,FG seems very true.......like CSS is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Calvin. I know it can sting like hell when someone tells a BS that. I know thats not the only thing thats triggering him. My A began a year ago this up coming Friday. I had made plans for a weekend downtown but I don't know. I was afraid of the holidays.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

Forever Grateful said:


> Things haven't been so great on our front since Sunday. It started going down hill when my dad was talking to talking to RTBP and my brother and implied that since my A ended almost a year ago that he should start getting over it. Understandably that pissed RTBP off and after he told me what was said both me and my mom corrected my dad.


Geez! Do your brother and dad now understand that they don't bring it up, EVER? Nothing good can come from it. Yeah, if RTBP brings it up then OK, but otherwise it's an electrified third rail you don't touch.


----------



## seasalt

FG,

I posted one time on your husband's original thread and have been very reluctant to give my thoughts as your first post asked that the complication to your affair not be addressed. If you still don't wish to go there I can understand but does your family, particularly your father, know about that aspect of your situation.

I say this now because while the affair season is now upon you and you have to support your husband who will be there to support you when your one year anniversary comes around? A once weekly visit to a therapist won't, in my opinion get you successfully past that day. It would be very hurtful to expect Refusetobeplayed to give you the love, attention and caring you will need in another month or two.

Prepare yourself the best way you can.

Seasalt


----------



## soulpotato

DS and I were talking some more about blocking the texting girl's number and we decided to pose the question here:

If texting girl only texts 2-3 times a year (with DS not responding as agreed), is it reasonable to pay $60 a year to block them for SP's feelings? Or is it okay for DS to just "ignore" the texts? And should SP pay half of that cost if DS pays to block? 

So what should it be:

A) DS pays to block
B) DS pays to block but SP splits cost
C) DS ignores texts


----------



## Forever Grateful

larry.gray said:


> Geez! Do your brother and dad now understand that they don't bring it up, EVER? Nothing good can come from it. Yeah, if RTBP brings it up then OK, but otherwise it's an electrified third rail you don't touch.


I think my brother was innocent in this situation. My dad was the one that brought it up and said it. I've made it EXPLICITLY clear to my family that they are NOT to bring it up again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Worth it to block the number SP as for who pays what not sure
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> DS and I were talking some more about blocking the texting girl's number and we decided to pose the question here:
> 
> If texting girl only texts 2-3 times a year (with DS not responding as agreed), is it reasonable to pay $60 a year to block them for SP's feelings? Or is it okay for DS to just "ignore" the texts? And should SP pay half of that cost if DS pays to block?
> 
> So what should it be:
> 
> A) DS pays to block
> B) DS pays to block but SP splits cost
> C) DS ignores texts


I'd say 'B' is a pretty decent compromise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> DS and I were talking some more about blocking the texting girl's number and we decided to pose the question here:
> 
> If texting girl only texts 2-3 times a year (with DS not responding as agreed), is it reasonable to pay $60 a year to block them for SP's feelings? Or is it okay for DS to just "ignore" the texts? And should SP pay half of that cost if DS pays to block?
> 
> So what should it be:
> 
> A) DS pays to block
> B) DS pays to block but SP splits cost
> C) DS ignores texts


Here are my feelings. When you are reconciling there are many issues to work through. There is an abundance of feelings to sort through. Any issues that cause dissension in any way can be impediments to progress. As Dr. Harley effectively states it love busters can block deposits to each other's love banks. Now as to this specific issue. If spending a few dollars so easily solves a problem it is truly a priceless gift. If splitting the cost allows DS to feel better about having to block the number then spilt the cost. For the cost of one cheap night out or the cost of a pizza and a movie on Netflix this issue can be put to rest. Money well worth spending if you ask me. I wish all life's problems could be solved as easily.


----------



## Forever Grateful

seasalt said:


> FG,
> 
> I posted one time on your husband's original thread and have been very reluctant to give my thoughts as your first post asked that the complication to your affair not be addressed. If you still don't wish to go there I can understand but does your family, particularly your father, know about that aspect of your situation.
> 
> I say this now because while the affair season is now upon you and you have to support your husband who will be there to support you when your one year anniversary comes around? A once weekly visit to a therapist won't, in my opinion get you successfully past that day. It would be very hurtful to expect Refusetobeplayed to give you the love, attention and caring you will need in another month or two.
> 
> Prepare yourself the best way you can.
> 
> Seasalt


I don't want to get into it too much but no my dad is not aware of that part, neither is my brother. The only ones that are my mother and two sisters.

I in no way expect to RTBP to be there for support on that issue. In fact he out right stated he wants nothing to do with the subject, hence why I don't post here about it. So in addition to IC, I am a part of a support group for the subject.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Here are my feelings. When you are reconciling there are many issues to work through. There is an abundance of feelings to sort through. Any issues that cause dissension in any way can be impediments to progress. As Dr. Harley effectively states it love busters can block deposits to each other's love banks. Now as to this specific issue. If spending a few dollars so easily solves a problem it is truly a priceless gift. If splitting the cost allows DS to feel better about having to block the number then spilt the cost. For the cost of one cheap night out or the cost of a pizza and a movie on Netflix this issue can be put to rest. Money well worth spending if you ask me. I wish all life's problems could be solved as easily.


Maybe easy to you guys, but there has been a lot of anger and arguing over this particular issue and things connected to it. These things leave lasting impressions that are tough to deal with, even after the "surface"/initial problem is solved. I really appreciate the feedback, though, and I will pay for half if that's what it takes for DS to address my feelings. Unfortunately, I'm very unhappy about this whole situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I just keep feeling it's wrong that I have to beg (and now pay) for NC with someone DS was "in EA territory" with. Seems like a huge double standard. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaxbrah

Has anyone here had any luck with reconciling? My wife just confessed to me last night of cheating a few months back. Im in shock and really confused. We have a 3 year old so that makes it more complicated. We went through a lot of outside hard times when we got married. We also went through 4 or 5 major life changing events all at once so we never really had mental freedom for a real relationship. Ive heard many marriages can be made stronger after infidelity and thats the only reason im willing to fight for thus relationship now. All I have ever wanted is a strong great relationship with her. Thats all she ever wanted too but im not sure if its possible now.


----------



## happyman64

jaxbrah said:


> Has anyone here had any luck with reconciling? My wife just confessed to me last night of cheating a few months back. Im in shock and really confused. We have a 3 year old so that makes it more complicated. We went through a lot of outside hard times when we got married. We also went through 4 or 5 major life changing events all at once so we never really had mental freedom for a real relationship. Ive heard many marriages can be made stronger after infidelity and thats the only reason im willing to fight for thus relationship now. All I have ever wanted is a strong great relationship with her. Thats all she ever wanted too but im not sure if its possible now.


Jax

The people on this thread are actively reconciling. There is always the chance of having a better marriage.

The fact that your wife came to you and announced her infidelity speaks volumes about not being happy with the person she has become. And her desire to be honest with you.

The key is both of you communicating with each other and working together to find out what went wrong and fixing it.

Have you started your own thread seeking advice?

HM


----------



## joe kidd

soulpotato said:


> I just keep feeling it's wrong that I have to beg (and now pay) for NC with someone DS was "in EA territory" with. Seems like a huge double standard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would get to me. Would make me feel money was more important. 
Pidge had her number changed. That's cheaper no?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> I just keep feeling it's wrong that I have to beg (and now pay) for NC with someone DS was "in EA territory" with. Seems like a huge double standard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can understand how you feel. My only caveat is that there was betrayal on both sides and both sides need to cooperate in order to get past it. If you said that you had to pay to block someone's number but DS insists that you chip in to block this person's number then I would totally agree with you. Or if this person contacted DS a lot more and you were triggering constantly I would also agree with you. But in this case it just seems so easy to be over and done with it that I feel it should be finished and put to rest. Of course that's just my opinion and as we always say your mileage may vary.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



jaxbrah said:


> Has anyone here had any luck with reconciling? My wife just confessed to me last night of cheating a few months back. Im in shock and really confused. We have a 3 year old so that makes it more complicated. We went through a lot of outside hard times when we got married. We also went through 4 or 5 major life changing events all at once so we never really had mental freedom for a real relationship. Ive heard many marriages can be made stronger after infidelity and thats the only reason im willing to fight for thus relationship now. All I have ever wanted is a strong great relationship with her. Thats all she ever wanted too but im not sure if its possible now.


Yes people do reconcile and very often the new marriage is stronger than the old one. But understand that it is a new marriage because the both of you are changed by the betrayal that has occurred. So you need to come to terms with the old marriage being over. Now you need to work together to build a new relationship using the knowledge and experience that this situation has thrust upon you. That knowledge comes from lessons learned and lessons yet to come. You should start your own thread and tell your story. Your wife should also be amenable to at least reading and considering the advice that is given if she doesn't feel comfortable posting herself. TAM is an incredible resource if you are both open minded and grow a thick skin to deal with the frequent 2x4s that will be freely offered. You are always welcome to post in this thread as well since we take great care to be compassionate and understanding while still brutally honest at times.


----------



## calvin

jaxbrah said:


> Has anyone here had any luck with reconciling? My wife just confessed to me last night of cheating a few months back. Im in shock and really confused. We have a 3 year old so that makes it more complicated. We went through a lot of outside hard times when we got married. We also went through 4 or 5 major life changing events all at once so we never really had mental freedom for a real relationship. Ive heard many marriages can be made stronger after infidelity and thats the only reason im willing to fight for thus relationship now. All I have ever wanted is a strong great relationship with her. Thats all she ever wanted too but im not sure if its possible now.


 Sorry you have to deal with this Jax,me and my wife Can't Sit Still are in our 22nd month of R.
She post on Tams also.
She found her old hs bf on facebook and started calling,texting and meeting him for four months.
R is hard but we are getting there,so yes it is possible.
It takes a lot of work and it will hurt but it can be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Jax,its a very good thing that she came to you and confessed.
Although my wife is extremely remorseful I wish she would have confessed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

soulpotato said:


> DS and I were talking some more about blocking the texting girl's number and we decided to pose the question here:
> 
> If texting girl only texts 2-3 times a year (with DS not responding as agreed), is it reasonable to pay $60 a year to block them for SP's feelings? Or is it okay for DS to just "ignore" the texts? And should SP pay half of that cost if DS pays to block?
> 
> So what should it be:
> 
> A) DS pays to block
> B) DS pays to block but SP splits cost
> C) DS ignores texts


How about D) get a new mobile number !!


----------



## bfree

jh52 said:


> How about D) get a new mobile number !!


I believe SP said before that DS uses that number for business purposes and changing numbers would be a problem.


----------



## jaxbrah

Thanks for the support guys. I will start my own thread and hopefully I rejoin this one with positive news


----------



## jh52

bfree said:


> I believe SP said before that DS uses that number for business purposes and changing numbers would be a problem.


Thanks bfree -- that's what happens when you jump into the middle of a thread/conversation.


----------



## soulpotato

jh52 said:


> How about D) get a new mobile number !!


I've suggested this one! She says it'd be annoying...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

jh52 said:


> Thanks bfree -- that's what happens when you jump into the middle of a thread/conversation.


Nope, she doesn't use it for business - she has another phone for that. So she COULD get a new number.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> I can understand how you feel. My only caveat is that there was betrayal on both sides and both sides need to cooperate in order to get past it. If you said that you had to pay to block someone's number but DS insists that you chip in to block this person's number then I would totally agree with you. Or if this person contacted DS a lot more and you were triggering constantly I would also agree with you. But in this case it just seems so easy to be over and done with it that I feel it should be finished and put to rest. Of course that's just my opinion and as we always say your mileage may vary.


I actually did block multiple numbers. See, I do things and it doesn't even occur to me to ask her for "compensation". But this is a common theme in our relationship...

I find it very upsetting when this girl texts her, but what's even more upsetting is that DS gets angry and fights me so hard. Other things matter more to her in that situation than my feelings do. another theme, and one that really hurts. A lot of old, buried landmines, I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

joe kidd said:


> That would get to me. Would make me feel money was more important.
> Pidge had her number changed. That's cheaper no?


Joe, YES! That makes it seem like money and other things are more important.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

If she can change her number then why doesn't she? Can she come on and explain her hesitation in cutting off this person? I'm failing to understand the issue.


----------



## daisygirl 41

SP does she see it as you trying to control her in some way And not as something she would be doing to benefit the relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

daisygirl 41 said:


> SP does she see it as you trying to control her in some way And not as something she would be doing to benefit the relationship?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, she is a little fixated on the idea that I might be trying to exert any control over her (and doing anything she can to avoid that).  Her family is very controlling and manipulative, and the fact that she felt for years that _I_ had all the power in our relationship has resulted in over-compensating now that we're in R. The one therapist said as much. DS doesn't seem to be totally into the idea of doing things to benefit the relationship just yet, at least from my perspective. I don't know if it seems threatening to her or what. 

It's funny, but we're two pretty controlling people, just in different ways. So I've been working on being okay with being vulnerable and enduring the feelings of threat/distress all year, but it's nearly panic-inducing to me when she starts doing things (or not doing things) that create situations in which I feel powerless in turn. The helpless/powerless feeling is very triggering for me, takes me right back to bad times/places. I absolutely cannot allow myself to feel or be helpless. So I've been a little white-knuckled and teeth-clenchy since last weekend.

The EAs definitely served a power/control purpose for me. I felt far safer.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> If she can change her number then why doesn't she? Can she come on and explain her hesitation in cutting off this person? I'm failing to understand the issue.


I will ask her, but what she more or less said to me last night was that it would be a pain to make sure everyone had the new number. I also feel disturbed by the way this has dragged on and how she seems to avoid completely cutting texting girl off. Also, I think like DG was saying, the control issue is factoring into this balking/reluctance. We are definitely going to discuss the "different sets of rules is ok" concept in therapy tomorrow. DS also feels taking the act of blocking texting girl is somehow...well, she says things like, "I don't want to have to do something like that over/because of HER." I keep saying it's because of me, not because of her, but DS is stuck on the idea.

She thinks now that if she upgrades to the latest OS version, it may have some blocking feature incorporated into it so that she won't have to pay or change the number? She says she has to check. So I guess we'll see.


----------



## calvin

SP,then upgrade.
If that's what it takes,I feel she should be having zero contact with the woman 
If it makes you uncomfortable at all.
GF can make it clear about no contact and you both save the cash and work on your
relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> SP,then upgrade.
> If that's what it takes,I feel she should be having zero contact with the woman
> If it makes you uncomfortable at all.
> GF can make it clear about no contact and you both save the cash and work on your
> relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, doesn't this reminds you of that friend CSS had that you had a problem with and how long it took to get CSS to block her? It wasn't malicious on CSS's part. It was just a sticking point that took a while to get resolved.


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> SP,then upgrade.
> If that's what it takes,I feel she should be having zero contact with the woman
> If it makes you uncomfortable at all.
> GF can make it clear about no contact and you both save the cash and work on your
> relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, Calvin, I appreciate that. I'm tired of hearing that it shouldn't bother me or that I should just let it go and not mind when the messages flash through. Honestly, every time that girl sends DS a message, I see red. I don't care that it's "only" occasionally - every time, I want to find her and beat her senseless. Then we go into all the other stuff when it is brought up for discussion. I'm so sick of this one, LOL.

I find it pretty ironic that me not liking certain contacts (or even displaying any jealousy) aggravates and angers her when all she wanted was to see/make me jealous during LTR Part 1. Damned if you do, damned if you don't! I never tried to interfere with who she talked to or spent time with before - even when I SHOULD have said something more - so it rankles a bit that I have been accused of trying to do so like it is unjust or uncalled for, or just "SP's rules".

Therapy today, wish me luck! :smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Calvin, doesn't this reminds you of that friend CSS had that you had a problem with and how long it took to get CSS to block her? It wasn't malicious on CSS's part. It was just a sticking point that took a while to get resolved.


 Yep,that is true bfree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Thank you, Calvin, I appreciate that. I'm tired of hearing that it shouldn't bother me or that I should just let it go and not mind when the messages flash through. Honestly, every time that girl sends DS a message, I see red. I don't care that it's "only" occasionally - every time, I want to find her and beat her senseless. Then we go into all the other stuff when it is brought up for discussion. I'm so sick of this one, LOL.
> 
> I find it pretty ironic that me not liking certain contacts (or even displaying any jealousy) aggravates and angers her when all she wanted was to see/make me jealous during LTR Part 1. Damned if you do, damned if you don't! I never tried to interfere with who she talked to or spent time with before - even when I SHOULD have said something more - so it rankles a bit that I have been accused of trying to do so like it is unjust or uncalled for, or just "SP's rules".
> 
> Therapy today, wish me luck! :smthumbup:


 Good luck SP,let us know how it goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Good luck SP,let us know how it goes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ditto


----------



## Forever Grateful

Things have gotten a bit worse. I left work early yesterday day to get us checked in to our hotel downtown. So we could get to the arena early for the Bulls game. RTBP had a good time and enjoyed the game. After that it was pretty much downhill. He was alternating between angry and depressed all night and we never went to sleep. He was talking about changing his mind on the weekend and taking a cab home. He stayed but I can tell he is pretty much checked out mentally on this trip. Today we went out and did a few things downtown but he wasn't really in and was just going through the motions. He also said that while he plans on staying for at least the holidays, he was considering separating. First time he mentioned it in months. I hate this hell I've made for myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

FG

He is on the rollercoaster.

Sad, tough but it happens.

You need to be supportive of him. I know it hurts to hear him mention a separation.

Put on that brave face and be there for him. Support him and love him.

Patience.

HM


----------



## soulpotato

FG, I am so sorry to hear that things aren't going well.  You did say it was near _that_ anniversary. RTBP is probably really wrestling with some things right now and trying to cope. Even though the A is the reason, I know it still hurts you, too. I'm sorry for the terrible pain you're both in right now, and I hope very much that it eases soon and RTBP realizes that he does want to stay and keep working through this. You're his girl, after all, even after everything, and I know you love him from the bottom of your heart, too. Please hang in there, both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Things have gotten a bit worse. I left work early yesterday day to get us checked in to our hotel downtown. So we could get to the arena early for the Bulls game. RTBP had a good time and enjoyed the game. After that it was pretty much downhill. He was alternating between angry and depressed all night and we never went to sleep. He was talking about changing his mind on the weekend and taking a cab home. He stayed but I can tell he is pretty much checked out mentally on this trip. Today we went out and did a few things downtown but he wasn't really in and was just going through the motions. He also said that while he plans on staying for at least the holidays, he was considering separating. First time he mentioned it in months. I hate this hell I've made for myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Sucks FG,Hm is right in what he just said.
RTBP is still hurt,more time,couseling and you having his back no matter what
is what I feel you should keep doing,I know your trying.
I still sometimes feel like that coming up on two years but I'm getting there.
He will to.
It still seems strange in a way but I need CSS when those feeling happen to me,its what
she's been doing for me.
Like Hm said,be patient and support him the best you can.
He loves you or he still would'nt be trying.
In our prayers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Therapist sucked. We barely talked about any of the problems that we were having such trouble with. Therapist was more interested in talking herself and using colorful similes. Not to mention her magical thinking! 

One positive thing that didn't really have anything to do with the session itself. I was keeping an eye on DS, and it made me smile that I knew when things the therapist said would aggravate her, and then I'd see her expression shift very subtly, a muscle in her jaw tighten a little... I don't know, it pleased me how well I could read her and anticipate her reactions. I wish I could do as well when it came to things between us! Sometimes we communicate SO well. A glance, a sound, a shift in stance is all we need. And other times, WTF.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

happyman64 said:


> FG
> 
> He is on the rollercoaster.
> 
> Sad, tough but it happens.
> 
> You need to be supportive of him. I know it hurts to hear him mention a separation.
> 
> Put on that brave face and be there for him. Support him and love him.
> 
> Patience.
> 
> HM


I'm being as supportive as I can. I had this whole weekend away planned out to help. It they say build new memories on significant dates and take them back.

Also I'm listening to my sisters advice and I'm trying to take solace in the fact that he said separation instead of divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I'm being as supportive as I can. I had this whole weekend away planned out to help. It they say build new memories on significant dates and take them back.
> 
> Also I'm listening to my sisters advice and I'm trying to take solace in the fact that he said separation instead of divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Just keep it up FG,like the Energizer Bunny.
Keep showing him.
I have a decent feeling about you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Therapist sucked. We barely talked about any of the problems that we were having such trouble with. Therapist was more interested in talking herself and using colorful similes. Not to mention her magical thinking!
> 
> One positive thing that didn't really have anything to do with the session itself. I was keeping an eye on DS, and it made me smile that I knew when things the therapist said would aggravate her, and then I'd see her expression shift very subtly, a muscle in her jaw tighten a little... I don't know, it pleased me how well I could read her and anticipate her reactions. I wish I could do as well when it came to things between us! Sometimes we communicate SO well. A glance, a sound, a shift in stance is all we need. And other times, WTF.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 We went through three counselors,first one sucked and was weird,CSS agrees,second one was
Fairly decent but could only take us so far,the third was the best.
We worked out a lot of stuff.
Don't be afraid to try another counselor,some have more experience than others.
I feel you liked seeing GF squirm some SP,I don't know about that.
Its natural in a way I think,I wanted CSS to enjoy some of the pain but it was
wrong of me no matter what.
I think me and CSS need to go back for a few sessions of MC,just to make sure things
are running good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Calvin has told me several times that he feels we don't belong together and has said we should seperate. Stick by him so that he knows you are not giving up. If he wants a separation ..well then let him. He will be back. You will see that he will change his mind a lot. He will go from one extreme to the total opposite and change his mind a lot. It is hard when he feels that way. Very hard. Just went thru it the other day with Calvin. He did not speak to me all day after telling me he hates his life. I allowed him time to himself and now he is fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> FG, I am so sorry to hear that things aren't going well.  You did say it was near _that_ anniversary. RTBP is probably really wrestling with some things right now and trying to cope. Even though the A is the reason, I know it still hurts you, too. I'm sorry for the terrible pain you're both in right now, and I hope very much that it eases soon and RTBP realizes that he does want to stay and keep working through this. You're his girl, after all, even after everything, and I know you love him from the bottom of your heart, too. Please hang in there, both of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks SP. Very early this morning was the anniversary of the beginning of my A. _That_ didn't happen until early February.

Sorry your therapist sucked SP. Don't give up looking. A good one is out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Pfffft.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Pfffft.


Ya ok Joe?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Calvin has told me several times that he feels we don't belong together and has said we should seperate. Stick by him so that he knows you are not giving up. If he wants a separation ..well then let him. He will be back. You will see that he will change his mind a lot. He will go from one extreme to the total opposite and change his mind a lot. It is hard when he feels that way. Very hard. Just went thru it the other day with Calvin. He did not speak to me all day after telling me he hates his life. I allowed him time to himself and now he is fine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Yeah I did,it takes awhile for something like this.
Its getting better,little by little, day by day.
I love my wife and know this is right,it feels right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

calvin said:


> We went through three counselors,first one sucked and was weird,CSS agrees,second one was
> Fairly decent but could only take us so far,the third was the best.
> We worked out a lot of stuff.
> Don't be afraid to try another counselor,some have more experience than others.
> I feel you liked seeing GF squirm some SP,I don't know about that.
> Its natural in a way I think,I wanted CSS to enjoy some of the pain but it was
> wrong of me no matter what.
> I think me and CSS need to go back for a few sessions of MC,just to make sure things
> are running good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the 3rd therapist we've been to. The only part I enjoyed was when the therapist told her it was NORMAL for me to feel the way I did about that girl texting her, etc. :smthumbup: But the other stuff - I really was just pleased that I was able to pick up so well on what DS was feeling. It was all confirmed when we left the session. It was kind of comical, too, because we were both silently suffering through the session together and thinking the same things.


----------



## soulpotato

Though I _do_ have a tiny little wicked streak, ha ha ha...

:whip:

:FIREdevil: 


:biggrinangelA:


----------



## soulpotato

One of my favorite things is to sidle up to DS with doe eyes and tell her how innocent and angelic I am... never fails to get her rolling - she always laughs REALLY hard. It's quite terrible.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> One of my favorite things is to sidle up to DS with doe eyes and tell her how innocent and angelic I am... never fails to get her rolling - she always laughs REALLY hard. It's quite terrible.


 I gave CSS my puppy dog eyes last night......she hit me with a newspaper.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> One of my favorite things is to sidle up to DS with doe eyes and tell her how innocent and angelic I am... never fails to get her rolling - she always laughs REALLY hard. It's quite terrible.


Oh my #€[[, we're even more alike than I had originally thought!


----------



## soulpotato

LOL, Calvin, seems to often be a response like that, huh? 

EI, somehow that does not surprise me!


----------



## soulpotato

I typed up two different posts over the last few minutes and erased both without posting. Just...miss romantic intimacy with DS.  I wish I knew how to help, but trying to talk about it just upsets her.


----------



## jupiter13

So we started answering questions yesterday. Explain this to me he says "she got nothing important from me nor do I give a f~*k about that bag ***** and ****ed up husband there were absolutely no feelings for her nothing." He can't understand that he gave her everything that was mine and he didn't give anything of his that he was not willing to give up. So I asked how he plans on compensating me for my lose? Still no answers but I will be very interested in what he thinks I should accept as compensation. Did anyone else ask for compensation? I am treating this as a broken contract totally business.

Then today as he continued to pick and choose which ones he would answer he simply ignores all my emails. When I returned with more questions he simply ignored me. Didn't even bother to open my emails. So I have gone into his email and deleted everyone of them. I am so sad that he sees fit to ignore me simply cause he feels he didn't give her anything. He is minimizing and being in control since he is so sorry to hurt me. As he also says he was a bad evil husband and I should be glad that he has come to understand that he truly wants to be married and does not want to loose me. Without me he would end up in prison or worst so he needs me too. I am his rock. So where is the bathroom I need to vomit. Then tonight I actually went to bed before he did I was in bed as he complains all the time that I am not and what does he do? He has the dog between us and cuddles the dog I guess I fell asleep and when I woke the dog was still there. Cold day in hell before I return to our bed. I assume the best way to get this point across tomorrow will be to be unavailable to him for anything. Or should I just be making plans to end this and walk away?


----------



## soulpotato

Jupiter, is it really possible to compensate you for that loss? I think maybe the best the WS can do is to try to do everything right for the rest of the M/LTR, and to try to address the injuries they caused their BS. 

How long do you give him to answer the questions when you send them? Is there some agreement that he will answer x amount every day? I know it isn't fair, but he may sometimes get overwhelmed or discouraged. Though it's wrong for him to say that you should be glad he realized that he wanted to be married and didn't want to lose you - what is this entitlement to your gladness that he wants to still be married after he is the one who betrayed? He should be glad that _you_ are still there. Though with the way things are going, do you think he can really help you heal, or do you think you would do better on your own? He should need you for more reasons than just to keep him out of prison. 

If you really want to get the point across to him that it is not okay to have the dog between the two of you in bed, especially when you have made a point to respond to his wishes, the best way would be to tell him. The cold shoulder and lack of communication won't communicate what you want it to.

I've been on the R thread for less than a year, but I have seen you in a lot of pain the whole time, Jupiter. Your H is not doing what you need, and maybe even he did, it ultimately wouldn't let you heal enough for the M to be functional and positive instead of a source of agony. Sometimes R doesn't work. Sometimes a BS has been too damaged by their WS to be able to successfully R with them. Sometimes the WS isn't doing what they need to do to support their BS. Sometimes both, or some permutation. But to me, it does not sound like this man ever does or says anything that makes you feel secure, happy, loved, and valued. You don't see his remorse, and even if he feels some, if he's not doing enough to show you, then that won't work. So maybe it is time to walk. You deserve to find some contentment and happiness in life, but maybe it can't be with him anymore.


----------



## bfree

I agree with SP. There is no compensation that exists. I believe EI stated it best by saying that she was so grateful B1 offered her forgiveness paid in full, not because she had completed her atonement but because there really is no possible way to pay that bill. Or something like that. She is obviously much more eloquent than I.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> I agree with SP. There is no compensation that exists. I believe EI stated it best by saying that she was so grateful B1 offered her forgiveness paid in full, not because she had completed her atonement but because there really is no possible way to pay that bill. Or something like that. She is obviously much more eloquent than I.


Yes, that is exactly it. That forgiveness, that chance, is a gift, and there is no way to ever repay it or even really to "earn" it, only to keep striving towards being worthy of it.


----------



## CantSitStill

WS' do you ever sit back and wonder where that evilness came from? Ever feel so unworthy? I mean, what was wrong with me? I did and said things I hate. Was I possessed by the devil? How was I capable of being so cruel? Not just having an EA but the way I treated Calvin. Feeling a panic attack coming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Yeah, CSS, I think about it a lot. On an emotional level, I can't fathom it. But intellectually, in hindsight, I understand why I behaved in some of the ways that I did. Without therapy, it was only a matter of time before I ended up really hurting DS in some way. Self-hatred, self-destructiveness, and my messed up head would inevitably have had an effect on those within the "blast" radius, and she was by far the closest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

With me...at that time I kept thinking...Calvin will never be satisfied. He will never be happy no matter how hard I try. I decided to go through a selfish phase. I figured he didnt love me. My mind was a mess. Now that I betrayed him, I made it harder to make him happy. That is about the dumbest thing anyone can do. It makes no sense at all. No wonder he is emotionally up and down. Why did I do this to the man I love more than anyone? Why? Damn it! Why? I must be really stupid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Sometimes smart people do stupid things. I feel pretty damned idiotic, too. But we do tend to hurt the ones we're closest to the most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Brokenshadow

soulpotato said:


> Sometimes smart people do stupid things. I feel pretty damned idiotic, too. But we do tend to hurt the ones we're closest to the most.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If there's one thing any ws understands, I would hope it would be that the repercussions of their actions, the consequences, are not theirs alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Brokenshadow...that is what I am talking about
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Brokenshadow said:


> If there's one thing any ws understands, I would hope it would be that the repercussions of their actions, the consequences, are not theirs alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, most definitely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheFlood117

You have to make your own happiness, you cannot expect your wife or hubby to MAKE you happy. Happiness should be an interpersonal thing. Even for a BS, it is not the expectation of the WS to make you happy, they should only add to it. I think this is the toughest part of reconciliation, once you get past the breach of trust and details of the affair that is. 

But... There is hope, even for me I guess.


----------



## bfree

TheFlood117 said:


> You have to make your own happiness, you cannot expect your wife or hubby to MAKE you happy. Happiness should be an interpersonal thing. Even for a BS, it is not the expectation of the WS to make you happy, they should only add to it. I think this is the toughest part of reconciliation, once you get past the breach of trust and details of the affair that is.
> 
> But... There is hope, even for me I guess.


There is always hope. I've seen miracles that would make Telly Salavas' hair stand up.


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> There is always hope. I've seen miracles that would make Telly Salavas' hair stand up.


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I tried talking to DS today about feeling sad with how she has been getting angry at me lately every time I try to bring up anything I want to discuss. Even if I bring it up in a positive way and praise her (got chastised again the other night for being too specific when referring to past intimacy - stresses her out). I told her I wish her response could be loving/caring instead of angry or upset.

So she got upset at me again and said that dealing with her family (narcissistic mother and her rampant disregard for DS' boundaries) and thinking of the scenarios has her maxed out and she can't deal with me/our stuff. She is telling me I am putting her over the edge and making her panic and that we need to have positive interactions so we can reconnect. (Here I thought we were still sort of connected! I feel like she is trying to say the positive interactions are all my responsibility, lol. Can't very well have them if she won't help me out!) I am trying to put myself on pause and not stress her, but it is tough.

Our long weekend trip is in a few days. I am afraid I am going to mess that up somehow with not being able to keep my mouth shut and keep my hurt feelings to myself. And act like everything is fine. You'd think it would be easy - I've been pretending to be fine all my life. But then, it's a lot harder when it's around someone you really care about. Yet...I feel like it's wrong to pretend to be okay, yet that seems to be exactly what she wants from me. 

Just venting. My heart is really hurting right now, and I feel so alone. I really struggle to understand her feelings when she's like this.


----------



## jupiter13

Soulpotato, bfree well of course there is no such thing as compensation for something that can not ever be replaced but he don't know that. Let's see what he thinks will make up for all this. I all ready have a good idea that all the beautiful jewelery and things he has been buying me is what he thinks will do the trick as well as relieve his feelings of guilt. As I look back on the marriage I have been able to link the most expensive with his bad behavior. How I ever missed this I don't know. He has been as good as gold. He is being a model husband now, attentive, helpful, loving, all the things he should be. There are times I wouldn't even be able to tell he was not my world and I can be alright in it. He still thinks he can make a decision to change and miraculously it will happen, by his will. I don't see that happening and I have never known anyone that has made changes in their life just like that and stayed with it. Has anyone else? Then I have heard this all before and within two years he was back to old tricks. I see him as wanting to do things his way. However I have also finally heard him admit in MC that he is not in control of everything. That alone was a hard realization for him to admit too. He has not been doing the hard line that I am requiring and that is answering my questions and validating my feelings. I have given him more time than I should but I also understand the damage inside him more than he does and he finally is seeing that. I do believe if I keep on him and with time he will become the kind of person and husband he should be. I do know that I expect him to jump on it and do it "now" as it is the only thing holding me back and I do emotional flooding in a big way sometimes. I loose my temper and he fears this also, Then again if he had done this from the start we would be much further down the road than this. I was amazed that in MC she even suggested I might let go of needing the questions answered. I got really mad and it was a flat no. I don't know if I am wanting the answers so much as I am wanting him to admit to everything out loud in his own words which I see as the only way to truly face the facts of his behavior. Keeping your actions inside without releasing them or bringing to the light is still harboring a dark place so that one day you will do it again. This marriage may be dead. The damage this has done to me is extensive. I had worked through many of my issues and not brought them into the marriage. Now I have to deal with many of them again but somehow on a deeper level that is destroying my heart and that is not his responsibility. What happened before him is not his doing but he is responsible for making me suffer through all this again by his actions. As for the marriage I just don't know. I didn't want to be married in the first place I was just fine living alone not answering to anyone but myself. I was my own best friend. Then was I really living or just pretending to live. I am damaged have been all my life but have worked very hard to over come this emotional baggage placed on me from years of abuse. But there comes a time when you have to let it go or it consumes you and every aspect of your life. I could not do that to my kids therefore my problems have always taken a back seat to everyone else's. Even now we have other problems in our life where a united front has to be out there so that keeps us connected. He is from my age group and I am 57. I would never date or be with anyone before around my age as there is always some kind of thinking pattern in this age group of men I do not like. Some kind of entitlement they all grew up with. While I have been sick in the past I the changing in my health allows me to get up now but I still have issues. This was suppose to be my time to enjoy life again to do, go and be all the things I wanted not dealing with this emotional stuff or continue to suffer. I do not have another 15 to 20 years to do again or do over. I have now and I am very angry about it. Maybe I will not let go as I want him to suffer as well and that is what I am thinking as I type this. Thank you for listening and I do like the replies since it it only through your replies and observations that I can get another perspective than my own. I think I may have jumped a bit around my mind can be scattered sometimes too.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> I tried talking to DS today about feeling sad with how she has been getting angry at me lately every time I try to bring up anything I want to discuss. Even if I bring it up in a positive way and praise her (got chastised again the other night for being too specific when referring to past intimacy - stresses her out). I told her I wish her response could be loving/caring instead of angry or upset.
> 
> So she got upset at me again and said that dealing with her family (narcissistic mother and her rampant disregard for DS' boundaries) and thinking of the scenarios has her maxed out and she can't deal with me/our stuff. She is telling me I am putting her over the edge and making her panic and that we need to have positive interactions so we can reconnect. (Here I thought we were still sort of connected! I feel like she is trying to say the positive interactions are all my responsibility, lol. Can't very well have them if she won't help me out!) I am trying to put myself on pause and not stress her, but it is tough.
> 
> Our long weekend trip is in a few days. I am afraid I am going to mess that up somehow with not being able to keep my mouth shut and keep my hurt feelings to myself. And act like everything is fine. You'd think it would be easy - I've been pretending to be fine all my life. But then, it's a lot harder when it's around someone you really care about. Yet...I feel like it's wrong to pretend to be okay, yet that seems to be exactly what she wants from me.
> 
> Just venting. My heart is really hurting right now, and I feel so alone. I really struggle to understand her feelings when she's like this.


Hugs SP....just hugs


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Hugs SP....just hugs


Thanks, bfree.


----------



## calvin

Jupiter I'm really sorry,I hope he digs deeper and gives you what you need.
I might be the BS but there were changes I had to make for me and CSS,I still have
work to do on myself and I hope your husband understands that he needs to do more.
Sp....I don't know what to say,what you wrote is sad also.
Don't hold anything in,if GF loves you she will let you let it out,that's letting walls down.
She might be tepid or still have some of her shields up.
I hope she comes around more,maybe this trip is just what you both need.
Thinking of you Sp,you too Jup.
Just reading some of these post makes me understand how more
I can try for me and CSS and be more understanding.
God bless both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> It's tough sometimes.
> Had a talk with Pidge yesterday. A talk instead of a disaster that ends with me pissed and her shaking her head.
> The sh*t has to end at some point. Every time we had a disagreement I would throw what she did at her. Even we didn't I would throw what she did at her.
> If I perceived a slight, imagined a tone in her voice, if she didn't answer me right away ( or the right way) I would throw what she did at her.
> I asked her if she stays because she wants to or if she has to.
> She says she wants to.
> I guess we can try to build on that.


 Yes,CSS like pidge isn't here for what I provide or can do for her.
She's here because she loves me,just like pidge loves you.
You're very right that the crap has to end sometime,close to two years for me
and its time,not because of the two year mark but I can feel in me that CSS has
shown me a lot and I just know I'm getting more trusting,forgiving and screw it
I have to move forward.
It doesn't mean it still bothers me....it does but not like it used to.
I keep looking for a sign to show me that this is the right thing to do.
That sign is still sitting next to me on the coutch,after two years that sign is putting her
arms around me in bed at night.
Yeah its kinda hard sometimes but its getting better every passing day.
Will it happen again? I have more of a chance hitting the powerball than CSS risking
that again,I know it,you know it.
I haven't let all the way go yet but I'm pretty damn close.
Lifes a gamble but I got a safe bet with CSS.
You do too joe.
Relax a little,its going to be fine man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

TheFlood117 said:


> *You have to make your own happiness, you cannot expect your wife or hubby to MAKE you happy.* Happiness should be an interpersonal thing. Even for a BS, it is not the expectation of the WS to make you happy, they should only add to it. I think this is the toughest part of reconciliation, once you get past the breach of trust and details of the affair that is.
> 
> But... There is hope, even for me I guess.


Agreed, Flood. The irony is that the same someone who cannot make you happy is definitely capable of making you very unhappy.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



jupiter13 said:


> Soulpotato, bfree well of course there is no such thing as compensation for something that can not ever be replaced but he don't know that. Let's see what he thinks will make up for all this. I all ready have a good idea that all the beautiful jewelery and things he has been buying me is what he thinks will do the trick as well as relieve his feelings of guilt. As I look back on the marriage I have been able to link the most expensive with his bad behavior. How I ever missed this I don't know. He has been as good as gold. He is being a model husband now, attentive, helpful, loving, all the things he should be. There are times I wouldn't even be able to tell he was not my world and I can be alright in it. He still thinks he can make a decision to change and miraculously it will happen, by his will. I don't see that happening and I have never known anyone that has made changes in their life just like that and stayed with it. Has anyone else? Then I have heard this all before and within two years he was back to old tricks. I see him as wanting to do things his way. However I have also finally heard him admit in MC that he is not in control of everything. That alone was a hard realization for him to admit too. He has not been doing the hard line that I am requiring and that is answering my questions and validating my feelings. I have given him more time than I should but I also understand the damage inside him more than he does and he finally is seeing that. I do believe if I keep on him and with time he will become the kind of person and husband he should be. I do know that I expect him to jump on it and do it "now" as it is the only thing holding me back and I do emotional flooding in a big way sometimes. I loose my temper and he fears this also, Then again if he had done this from the start we would be much further down the road than this. I was amazed that in MC she even suggested I might let go of needing the questions answered. I got really mad and it was a flat no. I don't know if I am wanting the answers so much as I am wanting him to admit to everything out loud in his own words which I see as the only way to truly face the facts of his behavior. Keeping your actions inside without releasing them or bringing to the light is still harboring a dark place so that one day you will do it again. This marriage may be dead. The damage this has done to me is extensive. I had worked through many of my issues and not brought them into the marriage. Now I have to deal with many of them again but somehow on a deeper level that is destroying my heart and that is not his responsibility. What happened before him is not his doing but he is responsible for making me suffer through all this again by his actions. As for the marriage I just don't know. I didn't want to be married in the first place I was just fine living alone not answering to anyone but myself. I was my own best friend. Then was I really living or just pretending to live. I am damaged have been all my life but have worked very hard to over come this emotional baggage placed on me from years of abuse. But there comes a time when you have to let it go or it consumes you and every aspect of your life. I could not do that to my kids therefore my problems have always taken a back seat to everyone else's. Even now we have other problems in our life where a united front has to be out there so that keeps us connected. He is from my age group and I am 57. I would never date or be with anyone before around my age as there is always some kind of thinking pattern in this age group of men I do not like. Some kind of entitlement they all grew up with. While I have been sick in the past I the changing in my health allows me to get up now but I still have issues. This was suppose to be my time to enjoy life again to do, go and be all the things I wanted not dealing with this emotional stuff or continue to suffer. I do not have another 15 to 20 years to do again or do over. I have now and I am very angry about it. Maybe I will not let go as I want him to suffer as well and that is what I am thinking as I type this. Thank you for listening and I do like the replies since it it only through your replies and observations that I can get another perspective than my own. I think I may have jumped a bit around my mind can be scattered sometimes too.


Jupiter, some guys show their love by buying things. It's not wrong, it's just how they are. Maybe almost losing you was his epiphany. It can be that simple and immediate. The only way to know for sure it's to see if it lasts. If it does then you can be reasonably sure that it's a permanent change. If not then you know what you need to do. Whatever you do make sure you aren't concentrating on him so much that you lose track of yourself. It's unfortunately easy to do. Just be a strong individual and be consciously aware. It's really all you can do.


----------



## jupiter13

bfree are you saying that these gifts are/could be his way of showing how remorseful and sorry he is? Is it that simple? While he is not showing me what I want to see and how I want to see it could these other actions be how he sees how to repair things? I have looked at these bobbles as him trying to buy me off like a common *****. That's how they make me feel. Where once I would have lived in a tent if life came down to that now I will not. I am not longer willing to give up on my comforts in life or the things I have achieved to accommodate our relationship. I guess maybe I have also been demanding he acts and behaves according to the scrip I want to see not what he is capable of. Either way his way is what took him out of the marriage so I don't see that he can have any say in how it gets repaired. I could be wrong and I will be the first to say this. However repairing the problem does not get my "needs" met since this is all about his "needs." Yes there is still a lot of resentment in me that most likely shows. Still I never thought these gifts to be anything more than buying me off... Can you explain that a little further please.....


----------



## bfree

People communicate in ways they are familiar with. Each of its has our own language. It may very well be that he communicates his remorse and love through material things. Obviously that's not your language so you need to talk him that although you might appreciate his gestures he needs to talk on a language you understand for his message to be received. The book the five love languages is good for that as is his needs her needs.


----------



## jupiter13

His needs her needs is one of the books he actually read. I don't have the other one but will get it now. Seems to weird that material things can be an act of remorse. I guess that is the difference in family dynamics. I know in his family they would hand him money all the time when ever they wanted him out of the house he looked boarded or he was doing good where anything negitive was a verbal lashing of insults and degrading screaming. My family however did not hand out cash or material objects for rewards at all. Good old pat on the back and thumbs up were all we got.


----------



## bfree

Part of learning to love is beginning to appreciate the intent of another person's gestures. While it is true that each of you should be trying to communicate in a way that is understood by the recipient of that message you also have to realize that we are who we are and oftentimes default back to those habits and learned behavior that we are accustomed to. My wife is not one to give out compliments easily. It's just not in her nature. The way she shows appreciation for things that I do is to do little things for me like bringing me a cup of coffee or rubbing my forehead when she sees I'm stressed. And while I appreciate those things I really need to hear her verbally express her feelings and to give me some affirmation once in a while. So I make sure to thank her for those little things she does because I know that's how she expresses her feelings to me. And she makes sure to say the things she knows I need to hear even though it's not natural for her to do so. The thing you and your husband need to do is to sit down and communicate. Talk about the ways each of you express your love and affection. Even if you don't always speak the same language you can learn to appreciate the intent behind the message.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Just… ugh. Sometimes I really hate this place. The "should have's" and "what if's" eat up someone's mind already when facing this. Why do people feel the need to pass judgement or make blanket statements about someone else's situation when they have clearly chosen a path and are working to get through it? On 'good' days, the voices in your head are a low rumble, on bad ones they are deafening. Why do we have to add stranger's judgements to that cacophony? Every BS has been hurt enough. Why do other people dump on them and deliberately and callously throw the affair back in their faces? If you watched a true friend of yours suffer through this for over a year, would you feel the need to resurrect their WS's crimes and throw it in their face? Or would you say, I'm sorry you've been so hurt, I'm here to support you and help with the choices you think are right? My heart hurts today.


----------



## bfree

I'm getting a bit discouraged as well. The hang em high crowd is ratcheting up the volume once again. I'm tired of trying to shout over them.


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Just… ugh. Sometimes I really hate this place. The "should have's" and "what if's" eat up someone's mind already when facing this. Why do people feel the need to pass judgement or make blanket statements about someone else's situation when they have clearly chosen a path and are working to get through it? On 'good' days, the voices in your head are a low rumble, on bad ones they are deafening. Why do we have to add stranger's judgements to that cacophony? Every BS has been hurt enough. Why do other people dump on them and deliberately and callously throw the affair back in their faces? If you watched a true friend of yours suffer through this for over a year, would you feel the need to resurrect their WS's crimes and throw it in their face? Or would you say, I'm sorry you've been so hurt, I'm here to support you and help with the choices you think are right? My heart hurts today.





bfree said:


> I'm getting a bit discouraged as well. The hang em high crowd is ratcheting up the volume once again. I'm tired of trying to shout over them.


That is exactly why we keep doing what we're doing, here, folks!  You know, because living our lives and working towards having happier, healthier marriages of our own isn't nearly enough to keep us busy!  It was so heartening to see such a nice show of support from the "R" thread for CM on DD's thread. I can't help but wonder if the "successes" we've seen on the "R" thread have a great deal to do with the kind of people who are drawn here in the first place. If you think I'm biased, you would be correct.


----------



## vellocet

bfree said:


> I'm getting a bit discouraged as well. The hang em high crowd is ratcheting up the volume once again. I'm tired of trying to shout over them.


I wouldn't say I'm a hang em high person, even though if you read my posts it may seem that way.

I am more in favor of not reconciling than for it. For me, I will never take back someone that has betrayed me in such a way.

But that's just me, everyone is different and I try not to tell someone right off the bat, "leave him/her!!" If they want to reconcile, then I have my opinions of what to expect(from a BS point of view anyway).

So I guess my question is, as WS's in this thread that have reconciled or are reconciling, what is it you think needs to be done in order for a BS to be comfortable in taking you back?


----------



## missthelove2013

Should we all pretend like R is easy and always the right choice??
I dont personally know anyone who has gotten over an affair and stayed married, except for my sister, and they are having an extremely hard time...I give them until after the holidays...he wont spend the rest of his life not being able to trust and she wont spend the rest of her apologizing

R is a fools dream...a FEW of us have done it...sincere kudos to them, but im not ABOUT to act like its easy or the right choice...it takes a special person(s) to do this, sure aint me...my stbx is GONE...I am a proud contributing member of the hang em high crowd...but I do root for a few of the R crowd...EI and B1 included, I think they have a good chance to do the impossible...rare


----------



## bfree

missthelove2013 said:


> Should we all pretend like R is easy and always the right choice??
> I dont personally know anyone who has gotten over an affair and stayed married, except for my sister, and they are having an extremely hard time...I give them until after the holidays...he wont spend the rest of his life not being able to trust and she wont spend the rest of her apologizing
> 
> R is a fools dream...a FEW of us have done it...sincere kudos to them, but im not ABOUT to act like its easy or the right choice...it takes a special person(s) to do this, sure aint me...my stbx is GONE...I am a proud contributing member of the hang em high crowd...but I do root for a few of the R crowd...EI and B1 included, I think they have a good chance to do the impossible...rare


Honestly not as rare as you may think. I've seen many couples reconcile after betrayal. TAM is rather skewed if you are trying to decide how many couples actually are successful in reconciling marriages. Most successfully reconciled couples don't come to or stay on TAM. They're too busy loving each other.


----------



## happyman64

> They're too busy loving each other.


:iagree:

Ain't that the truth Bfree.


----------



## bfree

vellocet said:


> I wouldn't say I'm a hang em high person, even though if you read my posts it may seem that way.
> 
> I am more in favor of not reconciling than for it. For me, I will never take back someone that has betrayed me in such a way.
> 
> But that's just me, everyone is different and I try not to tell someone right off the bat, "leave him/her!!" If they want to reconcile, then I have my opinions of what to expect(from a BS point of view anyway).
> 
> So I guess my question is, as WS's in this thread that have reconciled or are reconciling, what is it you think needs to be done in order for a BS to be comfortable in taking you back?


My main problem in that thread was the contradicting advice given by people. We say to expose in order to kill the affair but then we advise not to give the WS a second chance because the BS is now plan B? We advise the 180 to help protect the BS but then how is there to be any emotional reconnection? We say the WS needs to do the heavy lifting but then we tell the BS not to let their husband/wife know what it is they need in order to heal? We tell the BS to ignore the WS's words and only watch their actions but when the WS's actions show they're remorseful we tell them to ignore it because its not genuine?

I'm beginning to think its all a cover in order for people to push their own agenda of mistrust and pain.


----------



## calvin

missthelove2013 said:


> Should we all pretend like R is easy and always the right choice??
> I dont personally know anyone who has gotten over an affair and stayed married, except for my sister, and they are having an extremely hard time...I give them until after the holidays...he wont spend the rest of his life not being able to trust and she wont spend the rest of her apologizing
> 
> R is a fools dream...a FEW of us have done it...sincere kudos to them, but im not ABOUT to act like its easy or the right choice...it takes a special person(s) to do this, sure aint me...my stbx is GONE...I am a proud contributing member of the hang em high crowd...but I do root for a few of the R crowd...EI and B1 included, I think they have a good chance to do the impossible...rare


 Its possible,hard but possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

bfree said:


> My main problem in that thread was the contradicting advice given by people. We say to expose in order to kill the affair but then we advise not to give the WS a second chance because the BS is now plan B? We advise the 180 to help protect the BS but then how is there to be any emotional reconnection? We say the WS needs to do the heavy lifting but then we tell the BS not to let their husband/wife know what it is they need in order to heal? We tell the BS to ignore the WS's words and only watch their actions but *when the WS's actions show they're remorseful we tell them to ignore it because its not genuine?
> *
> I'm beginning to think its all a cover in order for people to push their own agenda of mistrust and pain.


This is what surprises me most; posters who are very confident whether this specific WS' remorse is genuine or not.

I wish I had that level of confidence, I can't tell if it's genuine even when it's right in front of me, BTDT, so I try to be carefull not to judge too much when it comes to strangers I haven't even met.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Just… ugh. Sometimes I really hate this place. The "should have's" and "what if's" eat up someone's mind already when facing this. Why do people feel the need to pass judgement or make blanket statements about someone else's situation when they have clearly chosen a path and are working to get through it? On 'good' days, the voices in your head are a low rumble, on bad ones they are deafening. Why do we have to add stranger's judgements to that cacophony? Every BS has been hurt enough. Why do other people dump on them and deliberately and callously throw the affair back in their faces? If you watched a true friend of yours suffer through this for over a year, would you feel the need to resurrect their WS's crimes and throw it in their face? Or would you say, I'm sorry you've been so hurt, I'm here to support you and help with the choices you think are right? My heart hurts today.


Strangers are uninvolved, dispassionate normally. Strangers observations can be much less biased, in theory at least. One could wonder whether there are non-victim/non-perpetrator posters in sufficient numbers here to provide that unbiased assessment, of course. There are a few of us I think and our perspectives differ nonetheless. 

One typical theme that often comes through for me is how many betrayed spouses are trying so hard to reconcile with what are surely unworthy, sometimes very clearly despicable partners. Am thinking not so much of this thread but the individual threads of C W I. Wayward spouses that seem to so clearly display the signature behaviors of people with personality disorders, for example. People that are essentially incapable of real love. I think many of the serial cheaters fall into that category.


----------



## EI

vellocet said:


> I wouldn't say I'm a hang em high person, even though if you read my posts it may seem that way.
> 
> I am more in favor of not reconciling than for it. For me, I will never take back someone that has betrayed me in such a way.
> 
> But that's just me, everyone is different and I try not to tell someone right off the bat, "leave him/her!!" If they want to reconcile, then I have my opinions of what to expect(from a BS point of view anyway).
> 
> So I guess my question is, as WS's in this thread that have reconciled or are reconciling, what is it you think needs to be done in order for a BS to be comfortable in taking you back?


I agree that you're not "exactly" a hang 'em high guy, because I have seen a few of your posts with a more measured response than some of the others. But, it is still apparent that you are not pro-reconciliation. I think what I find curious is that you state that you are "more in favor of not reconciling than for it." Are you saying this "in general" or just for yourself, personally? I like the way one TAMer, I think it was "CEL," put it. He said, "I'm not pro-Reconciliation, I'm not pro-Divorce, I'm pro-You." See, if you say that for you, infidelity is an absolute deal-breaker, no matter the circumstances, that you will never, ever be able to be happy staying in the marriage, then I would support that decision for you. I think that is a decision that only the individuals involved are qualified to make. Obviously, many of us on this thread (since B1 just happened to name it "Reconciliation" instead of "It's been three months since D-Day and my WW and I are still in a world of hurt,") find ourselves supporting other couples and/or individuals in reconciliation. People in similar situations or with similar mind sets tend to be drawn together. 

Now, to answer your question. There is no formula. No two WS's are the same. No two BS's are the same. No two marriages are the same. And, finally, no two infidelities are the same. Therefore, no two reconciliations can be the same. But, I think, first and foremost, you must have two people who are willing to reinvest in the marriage. It takes 100% of the efforts of both spouses for it to even have a chance to work because it takes an unbelievable amount of time, energy, and patience. 

I think the answer to what needs to be done to make the BS comfortable depends on what your BS needs for you to do. At the very least, a WS needs to be completely honest, transparent and extremely sensitive to the subtle mood changes, expressions, and demeanor of their spouse. In the summer of 2012, when our reconciliation was still in the very early stages, I became aware of even the tiniest changes in B1. I could tell that his mood had changed just by the sound of his breathing. I didn't wait for him to bring "it" up. I'm not foolish, "it" is always around, in the air. But, I will say that compared to this time last year when "it" was the size of a large elephant in the room, "it" is now the size of a tiny field mouse (I just, this very moment, asked B1, and that was his response.) If I sense that he is struggling, hurting, or triggering, I don't try to avoid him or avoid the subject. After the first several months of hours long conversations every day, I think he decided that it was time for him to ease up, give me a break, not burden me with his every single worry, fear, insecurity and hurt. I told him that I don't want him to hurt (and, I don't,) but not telling me when he is hurting is not the same as him not hurting. When he hurts, I want him to share it with me so that we can bear the burden together. I don't want him to suffer alone. I need for him to heal. I cannot heal until he does. So, we work through this together. We both owe it to ourselves and to each other to offer our best possible self to the other, not the broken, defeated, hopeless versions of ourselves that we had become. 

I don't know why our reconciliation is going so well when it seems so challenging, if not impossible, for some. Maybe we had both made such a mess of things that we really had nowhere else to go, but up. I just know that we are truly, truly, very happy. In admitting and facing our weaknesses, we also found our strengths. And, we find our greatest strength in one another's arms. But, more than anything else, we have found one another, again...... or maybe even for the first time.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Just to add on to EI's great post with a quick thought:

When it comes to choosing to reconcile a relationship or to move on, it is 100% an individual decision. There is no right answer or wrong answer. 

There are, however, right reasons and wrong reasons. These decisions must always be made from a position of strength and confidence, not fear and weakness. This usually takes time, hence why I still believe no permanent decisions should be made either way in the weeks following D day. 

One thing all of this has taught me is to always understand the motivations behind decisions and behaviors. Truly drilling down to the core motivation brings everything to a much brighter light, and makes moving forward easier. 

Just my two cents.


----------



## manticore

EI said:


> "I'm not pro-Reconciliation, I'm not pro-Divorce, I'm pro-You." See, if you say that for you, infidelity is an absolute deal-breaker, no matter the circumstances, that you will never, ever be able to be happy staying in the marriage, then I would support that decision for you. I think that is a decision that only the individuals involved are qualified to make.


I really liked the term Pro-You, but as a man I will have to use it like "I am pro-you dude" 

well the true is that both factions are necessary, the "hang them high crowd" is neccesary becuase sometimes reconcilation is not a healthy option for the OP and he needs to hear the harsh true even if it hurts, what good will it make to a Bs try reconcilation with a Ws with the next charactarestics:

- multiples A during the marriage
- totally unremorseful 
- the WS wants reconcilation for wrong reasons (finacial, social, practical reasons)
- WS not willing to perform heavy lifting
- WS imposing the conditions for reconcilation.

and the true is that we have many people who arrives to TAM with those circumstances because they blindly believe that their WS will change and want to try again.

there are cases that are worth to save and even if I don't always agree with those who want to try reconcilation, if they have at least a solid foundation to begin the process, I send them here and share with them the thread created by "almost recovered"

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

for they to know what to expect in the whole journey.


----------



## EI

missthelove2013 said:


> Should we all pretend like R is easy and always the right choice??
> I dont personally know anyone who has gotten over an affair and stayed married, except for my sister, and they are having an extremely hard time...I give them until after the holidays...he wont spend the rest of his life not being able to trust and she wont spend the rest of her apologizing
> 
> R is a fools dream...a FEW of us have done it...sincere kudos to them, but im not ABOUT to act like its easy or the right choice...it takes a special person(s) to do this, sure aint me...my stbx is GONE..*I am a proud contributing member of the hang em high crowd...but I do root for a few of the R crowd...EI and B1 included, I think they have a good chance to do the impossible...rare*


You know, you're really not as much of a bada$$ as you want everyone to think you are. I've seen your unjaded, humanity poke through a few times. You're hurt and you're angry, and rightfully so. I've read most of your story. I'll be honest, I believe you've made the right decision to divorce, the only healthy decision for you and your children, under the circumstances. 

I promise you that you'll not find ANYONE on this thread who thinks that R is easy or that it's always the right choice. We don't rugsweep on this thread. Whether you are a BS or a WS, we all speak our minds to one another with regard to our opinions on anyone's given situation. I think what separates the "R" thread from many of the others in CWI is that we treat everyone with the same respect that we wish to be treated with. It's that simple. Now, if only reconciliation, itself, were that simple. 

BTW, thank you for having faith in my reconciliation with B1. I don't know if it's rare, but it is exciting and we are very happy!


----------



## DarkHoly

Broken pottery is never the same. Not to say it can't be useful anymore, but it's never the same. I don't think going or staying is better than the other or requires more strength. I wager going through the mess itself without eating a bullet takes enough strength as it is.


----------



## Harken Banks

manticore said:


> - WS imposing the conditions for reconcilation.


As EI wrote and I am sure is true, no two are the same. But this cannot be good in any case where reconciliation, coming together again as husband and wife, is the true objective. There has been a fair amount of commentary in these pages questioning or at least inquiring whether the WS feels pain. Of course they feel pain (except, I suppose, for the truly sociopathic and there are some of those, but that is not this discussion). But do they feel the pain their decision to have an affair has caused their spouse? Not in the first person. But do they suffer unending anguish just becoming aware of and not being able to forget the anguish their affair has caused? An anguish they can maybe imagine, but never experience and never have inflicted having once imagined it? None of BSs out here are helpless, unable to help ourselves, or without options. The pain starts with dumbstruck disbelief. We got married, promised everything to each other, shared a life. We all feel like Charlie Brown when Lucie pulls the football away.


----------



## EI

DarkHoly said:


> Broken pottery is never the same. Not to say it can't be useful anymore, but it's never the same. I don't think going or staying is better than the other or requires more strength. I wager going through the mess itself without eating a bullet takes enough strength as it is.


I don't disagree with any of your post. Simply surviving infidelity requires incredible strength whether you divorce or reconcile. You're right about the broken pottery, too. I think in my own marriage the broken pottery represented our marriage pre-A, during the A, and in the first several weeks and early months after the A. Our "former" marriage was so damaged that it was beyond repair. We pitched the shattered pieces of that pottery/marriage. We're making a brand new piece. This time we're using materials that have been tested for their durability and strength. I believe this one is going to withstand the storms.


----------



## EI

I'm listening to B1 snore right now. I love him!


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## manticore

EI said:


> I'm listening to B1 snore right now. I love him!


LOL


----------



## jim123

bfree said:


> My main problem in that thread was the contradicting advice given by people. We say to expose in order to kill the affair but then we advise not to give the WS a second chance because the BS is now plan B? We advise the 180 to help protect the BS but then how is there to be any emotional reconnection? We say the WS needs to do the heavy lifting but then we tell the BS not to let their husband/wife know what it is they need in order to heal? We tell the BS to ignore the WS's words and only watch their actions but when the WS's actions show they're remorseful we tell them to ignore it because its not genuine?
> 
> I'm beginning to think its all a cover in order for people to push their own agenda of mistrust and pain.


A new BS must be taken down the path step by step. The A must be killed like a cancer. That does not happen overnight or even in a week.

Like DD and Dr Mathias, a BS must get control. The WS must prove overtime they are committed to the M and not just reacting to the loss of the OM.

This is the greatest thread on TAM. However, this thread was not the starting point for EI and B1. R is where you end up, not where you start.

If a BS is lucky, they will have a WS like EI, Mrs. Mathias or CM. If these WS took longer than a week to become who they are.

A rush to R I think is the worst thing to do if you want true R.

I do not post to be evil, I post to challenge. Any relationship can be saved if the proper foundation is built.


----------



## missthelove2013

bfree said:


> Honestly not as rare as you may think. I've seen many couples reconcile after betrayal. TAM is rather skewed if you are trying to decide how many couples actually are successful in reconciling marriages. Most successfully reconciled couples don't come to or stay on TAM. They're too busy loving each other.


very true...tam is the extreme I think...but I also think tam has a LOT of extreme cases of cheating...getting drunk and kissing a guy at a bar, or even a one night stand is not an insurmountable affair...but ****, here on tam, we have months and years of hiding an affair, doing it again during R, having their affair caught on VAR's or keyloggers where the BS gets to listen to sex noises or read about what a fat lazy piece of crap they are,...here on TAM we have hidden drug addictions...Ive never seen affairs as extreme as Ive read about here...

if my wife had a one nighter, I probably wouldnt even have posted it here...and we probably would have gotten over it...but she screwed her boss for over a year, deceived, manipulated and hid it...


----------



## missthelove2013

EI said:


> *You know, you're really not as much of a bada$$ as you want everyone to think you are.*


Shhhhh....not so loud...


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



missthelove2013 said:


> very true...tam is the extreme I think...but I also think tam has a LOT of extreme cases of cheating...getting drunk and kissing a guy at a bar, or even a one night stand is not an insurmountable affair...but ****, here on tam, we have months and years of hiding an affair, doing it again during R, having their affair caught on VAR's or keyloggers where the BS gets to listen to sex noises or read about what a fat lazy piece of crap they are,...here on TAM we have hidden drug addictions...Ive never seen affairs as extreme as Ive read about here...
> 
> if my wife had a one nighter, I probably wouldnt even have posted it here...and we probably would have gotten over it...but she screwed her boss for over a year, deceived, manipulated and hid it...


Yeah, gotta concede that point. And you were dealt a mighty crappy hand in that as well. Still I prefer to believe that most marriages can be salvaged if and only if both parties are all in. I also believe that in most cases if the WS is not all in it will be evident pretty quickly. I am just very concerned that too many times the WS is really all in and the BS would like to try to reconcile but the hang em high crowd influences them toward divorce. When it comes to infidelity divorce is always an option but in my opinion it should be the last option when the WS's actions demonstrate true remorse. I've just seen too many "miracles" that continue to bolster my faith in people's abilities to overcome tragedy.


----------



## hopefulgirl

bfree said:


> Still I prefer to believe that most marriages can be salvaged if and only if both parties are all in. I also believe that in most cases if the WS is not all in it will be evident pretty quickly.


It was a real roller coaster for some time with my WS, so I wasn't ready for MC for months.

There may be a gender difference in regard to how quickly being "all in" is evident.

Fog may lift slowly for both genders, but I think men may have a more difficult time sorting through and even articulating to themselves what's going on inside of them, given that speaking about emotions is not something they've been encouraged to do - quite the opposite. 

Men are supposed to suck it up. Don't let emotions get in the way. And by all means, don't expose any weaknesses. If you have any, keep them to yourself. If you f'd up you certainly aren't going to sit around and yap about it at length. How manly is that? And if you had any "issues" (medical, psychological, or both) that may have added to your vulnerability to cheating, isn't it more "manly" to postpone seeing a doctor or therapist? (And if you do go, leave out a lot of details that make you look bad.)

Even when the WS wasn't in love, they can be in a really messed up place - having lied and compartmentalized and become a strange version of themselves. They don't just snap out of it, even with exposure. There's a lot of anger, probably mostly at themselves, but some will get misdirected at the BS in those tense early days after D-Day, and it's just a mess. Men, especially, not being too "in touch" with their own feelings, may not figure out what's really going on, and they will not be "all in." At least in my situation, it took quite awhile. And I suspect that may be true for many other men as well.

That's why I think the 2X4's come out a little too quickly. Male WS's may struggle a little longer to get to a place where female WS's can get to sooner. I hope this won't always be the case. That we won't always socialize men to keep their emotions and their vulnerabilities all bottled up. My H is learning to communicate with me in new ways that HE really loves. He catches ME when I slip up and fall into the old patterns by not sharing what's going on at a deeper level - that's how eager a learner he is. And our marriage is so much better for it.


----------



## EI

hopefulgirl said:


> My H is learning to communicate with me in new ways that HE really loves. He catches ME when I slip up and fall into the old patterns by not sharing what's going on at a deeper level - that's how eager a learner he is. And our marriage is so much better for it.


That's an awesome update, hopefulgirl. I'm so encouraged that the tide is turning for you and your husband. I'm glad to hear that he is finally starting to understand what he needs to be doing for you, for himself, and for your marriage.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Trust me hopefulgirl, its just as hard if not harder for a emotionally repressed/closed off male BS as well.


----------



## Refuse to be played

I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm just pissed most of the time. At FG, for the A it's self and that if things went the ways she originally wanted I would've never known what she done. At myself for still trying.

Like she said I was considering separating after the holidays. I guess I didn't want to be around her when her second trip happened and everything connected with that. My IC pointed out how stupid that idea was, that I'll be thinking about it regardless and separating won't really help. Anyways I did promise FG a while back that at the very least I'll try my best at this R until I graduate next winter.


----------



## MattMatt

Refuse to be played said:


> I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm just pissed most of the time. At FG, for the A it's self and that if things went the ways she originally wanted I would've never known what she done. At myself for still trying.
> 
> Like she said I was considering separating after the holidays. I guess I didn't want to be around her when her second trip happened and everything connected with that. My IC pointed out how stupid that idea was, that I'll be thinking about it regardless and separating won't really help. Anyways I did promise FG a while back that at the very least I'll try my best at this R until I graduate next winter.


Do you mean pissed in the American sense? Or the British sense? I.E.,  or :toast:

I suspect the former. Tough it out. We'll be here for you.:smthumbup:


----------



## Brokenshadow

Refuse to be played said:


> I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm just pissed most of the time. At FG, for the A it's self and that if things went the ways she originally wanted I would've never known what she done. At myself for still trying.
> 
> Like she said I was considering separating after the holidays. I guess I didn't want to be around her when her second trip happened and everything connected with that. My IC pointed out how stupid that idea was, that I'll be thinking about it regardless and separating won't really help. Anyways I did promise FG a while back that at the very least I'll try my best at this R until I graduate next winter.


I'm closing down shop with TAM, but saw your last post. My thread got totally negative, insulting, etc. You're a good man, rtbp. Your story is heartbreaking. No matter what you decide, I hope happiness finds it's way into your life. If there is a god, I hope he holds you close to his heart. Not for what you've been put through, but because people like you deserve it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm just pissed most of the time. At FG, for the A it's self and that if things went the ways she originally wanted I would've never known what she done. At myself for still trying.
> 
> Like she said I was considering separating after the holidays. I guess I didn't want to be around her when her second trip happened and everything connected with that. My IC pointed out how stupid that idea was, that I'll be thinking about it regardless and separating won't really help. Anyways I did promise FG a while back that at the very least I'll try my best at this R until I graduate next winter.


I know it well. That omnidirectional anger. I lived it for years. Its tough. It got to the point where I didn't know how to feel any other way. Unfortunately I don't have any good advice for you other than to say don't do what I did. I let it consume me for years. I let it put me in a very dark place. You and FG don't have to stay married although I pray that you can both find a way through this. But you do have to eventually forgive her regardless of the state of your marriage. Are these trips absolutely necessary? If the trips are your primary trigger maybe she shouldn't go? Even if it means she needs to quit her job? I mean, your marriage and family are at stake. What is the most important thing to you?


----------



## bfree

Brokenshadow said:


> I'm closing down shop with TAM, but saw your last post. My thread got totally negative, insulting, etc. You're a good man, rtbp. Your story is heartbreaking. No matter what you decide, I hope happiness finds it's way into your life. If there is a god, I hope he holds you close to his heart. Not for what you've been put through, but because people like you deserve it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shadow, I know at times I have been hard on you. I may not have used a 2x4 but I probably gave you a good wallop with a popsicle stick. I might have even given you a splinter. Just know that I really pray for you and hope everything turns out the way you want it to. You're a good man Shadow.


----------



## soulpotato

jupiter13 said:


> Soulpotato, bfree well of course there is no such thing as compensation for something that can not ever be replaced but he don't know that. Let's see what he thinks will make up for all this.


You should ask him sometime, see what he says.



jupiter13 said:


> I all ready have a good idea that all the beautiful jewelery and things he has been buying me is what he thinks will do the trick as well as relieve his feelings of guilt. As I look back on the marriage I have been able to link the most expensive with his bad behavior.


This could be his attempt at showing love or apologizing. Misplaced, surely, but it could be something he learned, like bfree was saying. I kind of relate to the gift thing. In my family, all "love" was shown with material objects/gifts. So I learned to give gifts, though unlike my family, I paired it with my best attempt(s) at supportive and caring behaviors. Like how I would have wanted to be loved. Because I realized how empty objects alone were. But it is something that stays with you. I have since learned to somewhat leave off with the stuff and DO things, also not saying fluffy words. DS is very much an acts-of-service and quality-time person, so I try to focus on funneling my energy into those things.



jupiter13 said:


> How I ever missed this I don't know. He has been as good as gold. He is being a model husband now, attentive, helpful, loving, all the things he should be. There are times I wouldn't even be able to tell he was not my world and I can be alright in it.


So he's somewhat showing it by his behavior, but he doesn't seem to get that you need more from him, like digging down into the dark places and bringing everything to light.



jupiter13 said:


> He still thinks he can make a decision to change and miraculously it will happen, by his will. I don't see that happening and I have never known anyone that has made changes in their life just like that and stayed with it. Has anyone else?


I did. I decided almost a year ago to change a whole set of behaviors and ways of being that had been destructive to my relationship with DS and had hurt her. So far, the changes have remained stable and continued to evolve/improve. Even she is surprised. But I've always been that way. It builds, and then suddenly something clicks and I start to change - pretty quickly. It's like I have to figure it out first, where all the pieces need to go, and then it happens. It takes a lot of energy, though, and is far from easy.



jupiter13 said:


> Then I have heard this all before and within two years he was back to old tricks. I see him as wanting to do things his way. However I have also finally heard him admit in MC that he is not in control of everything. That alone was a hard realization for him to admit too. He has not been doing the hard line that I am requiring and that is answering my questions and validating my feelings. I have given him more time than I should but I also understand the damage inside him more than he does and he finally is seeing that.


Working with damaged people is taxing and painful, as DS and I well know. But it can be rewarding, I think. It just depends on the person/people involved. I think part of the reason DS has been as forgiving as she has is because she sees the clvsterfvck that is me like no one else ever has. Totally behind the scenes, exclusive pass. I showed her every facet I had. 



jupiter13 said:


> I do believe if I keep on him and with time he will become the kind of person and husband he should be.


He should be doing that without your push. I hope he gets into gear soon.



jupiter13 said:


> I was amazed that in MC she even suggested I might let go of needing the questions answered. I got really mad and it was a flat no. I don't know if I am wanting the answers so much as I am wanting him to admit to everything out loud in his own words which I see as the only way to truly face the facts of his behavior. Keeping your actions inside without releasing them or bringing to the light is still harboring a dark place so that one day you will do it again.


I would be angry if I were you, too. That's not right. And it's something that you really need. Therapists don't always know what's best for us. A lot of them seem to be big on some version of rug-sweeping, whether in regard to infidelity or just relationship problems in general. To a point, okay (like not fighting over lesser things). But with deeper things, it doesn't work, at all. Just creates more resentment. I totally agree with you. Light needs to get into those dark places. Things have to come out.



jupiter13 said:


> This was suppose to be my time to enjoy life again to do, go and be all the things I wanted not dealing with this emotional stuff or continue to suffer. I do not have another 15 to 20 years to do again or do over. I have now and I am very angry about it. Maybe I will not let go as I want him to suffer as well and that is what I am thinking as I type this. Thank you for listening and I do like the replies since it it only through your replies and observations that I can get another perspective than my own. I think I may have jumped a bit around my mind can be scattered sometimes too.


I'm sorry, Jupiter.  I am always reading. My mind is often scattered, too.


----------



## soulpotato

Sorry you're hurting and going through this, RTBP.


----------



## soulpotato

Well, DS and I both felt the trip we took kind of sucked. She has been struggling with mood issues for weeks (she says nothing to do with me - these seem to be chemically driven), so she wasn't really open to having a good time to begin with. We experienced frustration with trip-related things, and there was also tension between us. We had a bit of an argument on the drive up over some exchange I read to her out of a relationship book (she brought them because she thought we could talk about stuff). And as you all know, we have already been half-fighting for weeks about relationship rules, intimacy, that other girl, and me not being allowed to talk about my thoughts or feelings if they're related to any kind of "issue". There hasn't been much warmth from her lately. I know she's not into being very emotional or expressive, but I find these "lows" really hard to cope with, especially when they go on for weeks at a time.

The trip was not the least bit romantic. She hinted something might happen, but I did not buy it at all, and my desire is falling because I am starting to feel there is no chance of intimacy on top of thinking that maybe my feelings don't matter to her very much. Even emotionally, she feels far away. But I can't talk about it because she gets upset. Actually, there's a lot I can't talk about because she gets upset, but I am supposed to find the magic words to use to not upset her. Not even soft start-ups work more than occasionally. She has said that she realizes she escalates things when there is actually nothing wrong with what I've said, but that I need to learn to say or do things differently somehow to prevent this emotional explosion that occurs within her. (This was partially what our argument in the car was about.)

I have been thinking for a while that the root of the problem is that I have feelings. LOL. If I were a robot, all would be well. She sometimes asks for things that I wonder if anyone could provide.

Sometimes I just don't know what to do. I am getting depressed. I feel like there is nothing I can do to make things better. No matter how hard I try, if she wants to be upset or find fault with my best efforts even when there might not be anything wrong to be found by her own admission, then my efforts are just useless. And my hurt feelings and the things that bother me are just in her way. I feel like she keeps trying to push them aside, but I can't allow that because that would be just like before, and I wonder if that is not one of the things that frustrates her the most. "If SP would just leave things alone, everything would be fine." No, they wouldn't. They'd be hemorrhaging.

Sorry for the super negativity.


----------



## Refuse to be played

MattMatt said:


> Do you mean pissed in the American sense? Or the British sense? I.E.,  or :toast:
> 
> I suspect the former. Tough it out. We'll be here for you.:smthumbup:


The former. Although I just finished my last exam for the semester so I can start doing the other one now.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Brokenshadow said:


> I'm closing down shop with TAM, but saw your last post. My thread got totally negative, insulting, etc. You're a good man, rtbp. Your story is heartbreaking. No matter what you decide, I hope happiness finds it's way into your life. If there is a god, I hope he holds you close to his heart. Not for what you've been put through, but because people like you deserve it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks a lot shadow. I've rarely come on TAM for the past few months so I'm not up to date on your thread. People were giving you crap for trying to R? Thats why I never made another thread after I deleted my other one. Hope you have/find some happiness in your life too dude. And if your staying off for good, I wanna say good luck bro.


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> I know it well. That omnidirectional anger. I lived it for years. Its tough. It got to the point where I didn't know how to feel any other way. Unfortunately I don't have any good advice for you other than to say don't do what I did. I let it consume me for years. I let it put me in a very dark place. You and FG don't have to stay married although I pray that you can both find a way through this. But you do have to eventually forgive her regardless of the state of your marriage. Are these trips absolutely necessary? If the trips are your primary trigger maybe she shouldn't go? Even if it means she needs to quit her job? I mean, your marriage and family are at stake. What is the most important thing to you?


I'm glad I finally have a heavy bag in my basement. It helps late at night. I've cut back somewhat on the drinking since the summer. Honestly I could go with her on her next trip since I'm on winter break. But I'm not all that motivated to spend time with her at the moment. I'm willing to admit I've had us living like roommates for the past 2 weeks. Asked me a year ago I would've said my marriage was the most important thing in my life ever. Now? IDK.


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> Well, DS and I both felt the trip we took kind of sucked. She has been struggling with mood issues for weeks (she says nothing to do with me - these seem to be chemically driven), so she wasn't really open to having a good time to begin with. We experienced frustration with trip-related things, and there was also tension between us. We had a bit of an argument on the drive up over some exchange I read to her out of a relationship book (she brought them because she thought we could talk about stuff). And as you all know, we have already been half-fighting for weeks about relationship rules, intimacy, that other girl, and me not being allowed to talk about my thoughts or feelings if they're related to any kind of "issue". There hasn't been much warmth from her lately. I know she's not into being very emotional or expressive, but I find these "lows" really hard to cope with, especially when they go on for weeks at a time.
> 
> The trip was not the least bit romantic. She hinted something might happen, but I did not buy it at all, and my desire is falling because I am starting to feel there is no chance of intimacy on top of thinking that maybe my feelings don't matter to her very much. Even emotionally, she feels far away. But I can't talk about it because she gets upset. Actually, there's a lot I can't talk about because she gets upset, but I am supposed to find the magic words to use to not upset her. Not even soft start-ups work more than occasionally. She has said that she realizes she escalates things when there is actually nothing wrong with what I've said, but that I need to learn to say or do things differently somehow to prevent this emotional explosion that occurs within her. (This was partially what our argument in the car was about.)
> 
> I have been thinking for a while that the root of the problem is that I have feelings. LOL. If I were a robot, all would be well. She sometimes asks for things that I wonder if anyone could provide.
> 
> Sometimes I just don't know what to do. I am getting depressed. I feel like there is nothing I can do to make things better. No matter how hard I try, if she wants to be upset or find fault with my best efforts even when there might not be anything wrong to be found by her own admission, then my efforts are just useless. And my hurt feelings and the things that bother me are just in her way. I feel like she keeps trying to push them aside, but I can't allow that because that would be just like before, and I wonder if that is not one of the things that frustrates her the most. "If SP would just leave things alone, everything would be fine." No, they wouldn't. They'd be hemorrhaging.
> 
> Sorry for the super negativity.


I'm sorry your trip wasn't all you hoped it would be. All I can say is that it takes two to make a relationship and as much as you want this to work it may not. Let me ask you this. If you pulled back and concentrated less on DS and more on things to make yourself a better more well rounded person what would happen? Do you think that maybe you want this too much and she is feeling smothered?


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> I'm glad I finally have a heavy bag in my basement. It helps late at night. I've cut back somewhat on the drinking since the summer. Honestly I could go with her on her next trip since I'm on winter break. But I'm not all that motivated to spend time with her at the moment. I'm willing to admit I've had us living like roommates for the past 2 weeks. Asked me a year ago I would've said my marriage was the most important thing in my life ever. Now? IDK.


You have to decide what you want. Nobody can decide for you. If she is doing everything she can and you just aren't all in its not going to work. What do you think you're missing? When you're with her what are you thinking/feeling?


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## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> Sorry you're hurting and going through this, RTBP.


Thanks SP. Sorry things aren't so hot for you and DS right now. Hope things get better for the two of you.


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> You have to decide what you want. Nobody can decide for you. If she is doing everything she can and you just aren't all in its not going to work. What do you think you're missing? When you're with her what are you thinking/feeling?


She's trying as hard as she can. My IC asked me something similar. I love FG and still feel I want to be with her. I'm just pissed off at this whole situation. When I'm able to not focus on it and just be 'normal' I enjoy my time with her.


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## johnAdams

bfree said:


> I know it well. That omnidirectional anger. I lived it for years. Its tough. It got to the point where I didn't know how to feel any other way. Unfortunately I don't have any good advice for you other than to say don't do what I did. I let it consume me for years. I let it put me in a very dark place. You and FG don't have to stay married although I pray that you can both find a way through this. *But you do have to eventually forgive her *regardless of the state of your marriage. Are these trips absolutely necessary? If the trips are your primary trigger maybe she shouldn't go? Even if it means she needs to quit her job? I mean, your marriage and family are at stake. What is the most important thing to you?


Bfree, you give some good advice! Some of the more thought out and insightfull posts without being negative. I also let it consume me for years. I think listening to you and a few others on TAM helped me better "deal with it" and to better R.


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## Brokenshadow

bfree said:


> Shadow, I know at times I have been hard on you. I may not have used a 2x4 but I probably gave you a good wallop with a popsicle stick. I might have even given you a splinter. Just know that I really pray for you and hope everything turns out the way you want it to. You're a good man Shadow.


Thanks, man. Me too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brokenshadow

Refuse to be played said:


> Thanks a lot shadow. I've rarely come on TAM for the past few months so I'm not up to date on your thread. People were giving you crap for trying to R? Thats why I never made another thread after I deleted my other one. Hope you have/find some happiness in your life too dude. And if your staying off for good, I wanna say good luck bro.


Thank you bro. What happened in my thread was...complicated. I get where you're at with you and your lady. Try your hardest, give it your all if that's what you want. Do what's gonna make you happy. My best to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

The people who on this thread who care,support,give sound advice and offer
themselves up as a crutch always amazes me.
The strenght,determination and love of those who are working on their R hard and who still have
the energy and patience left to help other and listen is just icredible to me also.
Just a lot of good folks here.
And a couple Bears fans doesn't hurt.
I'm thankful for this thread and the folks on here.
Just wanted to say that.
God bless you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> She's trying as hard as she can. My IC asked me something similar. I love FG and still feel I want to be with her. I'm just pissed off at this whole situation. When I'm able to not focus on it and just be 'normal' I enjoy my time with her.


Long before I came to TAM when I was still in a very bad place I met a couple who helped me out of it. He ran a group out of a church basement that helpedmen deal with all sorts of problems. I thought my problem was alcohol and drug abuse but I was to quickly discover it really wasn't. Those were symptoms of an anger and bitterness that spun out of control. These two wonderful people helped me when nobody else would or should. While working through my issues I met with the group. I had no patience for cheaters. Thought that once a cheater alwaysa cheater. I hated people who cheated and felt they were the lowest form of life. Another gift my wayward ex wife gave me. Then the wife of the group leader shared her story with me. She cheated on her husband for almost a year. What!!! I couldn't believe it. They were the happiest couple I think I'd ever met. She was the nicest sweetest person I knew. It was then that I realized that people who cheat on their spouse are like everyone else. They're weak...just like me...just like you. It could happen to anyone given the right circumstances. Betrayal of a loved one ifs a terrible thing to do. But it doesn't own you or define you. It's just another one of life's little challenges that needs to be overcome. That realization is when my anger started to fade and I started to see people in a different light.


----------



## cpacan

For me; it's not that I have a hard time accepting other people's faults and mistakes. I too believe that some/most people learn from their mistakes and change. I'm quite consistant on this view as well.

The trick for me is, that not everybody is like this, and to dertermine whether you have the changeable person or the non-changeable person in front of you, is a difficult task, for me at least. Since my wife's betrayal, I've found it very hard to trust my own ability to read other people.

If you have it in your heart to forgive and make a close connection with the one who betrayed you, it's just scary stuff to move on with someone who, for all you know, still believe that infidelity is a tool you can pick up and use at will whenever you get bored.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Long before I came to TAM when I was still in a very bad place I met a couple who helped me out of it. He ran a group out of a church basement that helpedmen deal with all sorts of problems. I thought my problem was alcohol and drug abuse but I was to quickly discover it really wasn't. Those were symptoms of an anger and bitterness that spun out of control. These two wonderful people helped me when nobody else would or should. While working through my issues I met with the group. I had no patience for cheaters. Thought that once a cheater alwaysa cheater. I hated people who cheated and felt they were the lowest form of life. Another gift my wayward ex wife gave me. Then the wife of the group leader shared her story with me. She cheated on her husband for almost a year. What!!! I couldn't believe it. They were the happiest couple I think I'd ever met. She was the nicest sweetest person I knew. It was then that I realized that people who cheat on their spouse are like everyone else. They're weak...just like me...just like you. It could happen to anyone given the right circumstances. Betrayal of a loved one ifs a terrible thing to do. But it doesn't own you or define you. It's just another one of life's little challenges that needs to be overcome. That realization is when my anger started to fade and I started to see people in a different light.


 You've come a long way bfree,I have a hard time picturing you like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

SP
Sorry your trip didn't go well. I think it's time you started concentrating on you now. It seem like you have done everything you can possibly do. Maybe she is feeling a bit smothered. Pull back and give her some space. It might help you both. She's not going to give you the reactions you want, just because you want it.


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## jupiter13

Been in the very rooms you are talking about bfree and I have found there some of the most intelligent people I will ever met. I agree with you completely about the use being symptoms of anger resentments and bitterness but I dealt with mine a long time ago. The Black and white thinking pattern has always been one of those issues. It is either right or it is wrong we were not raised to think in the abstract or even consider there are shades of gray. Rapping your mind around that is hard when your programmed one way but forced to accept another.


----------



## bfree

cpacan said:


> For me; it's not that I have a hard time accepting other people's faults and mistakes. I too believe that some/most people learn from their mistakes and change. I'm quite consistant on this view as well.
> 
> The trick for me is, that not everybody is like this, and to dertermine whether you have the changeable person or the non-changeable person in front of you, is a difficult task, for me at least. Since my wife's betrayal, I've found it very hard to trust my own ability to read other people.
> 
> If you have it in your heart to forgive and make a close connection with the one who betrayed you, it's just scary stuff to move on with someone who, for all you know, still believe that infidelity is a tool you can pick up and use at will whenever you get bored.


I think all people CAN change. In fact I think most people WANT to change. I just think SOME people change easier than others. That's why I believe that we need to have patience and be willing to use tough love when needed. Its a fine line though. Some people bring out the 2x4's much too quickly when a pat on the back would accomplish much more. I think people will do what they NEED to do much quicker than what they WANT to do. As spouses we need to give them a reason to do the things that need to be done without sending a mixed message. And we also need to be realistic in analyzing those things that we need vs. those things that we want. There is a thread running right now where the husband has asked for a timeline. Now I don't necessarily believe that he is wrong for giving his wife an extended opportunity to give him that timeline. But he is sending mixed messages in that he is communicating this need as a want and therefore she is procrastinating the task. In today's world we tend to react with fear much too often. What is wrong with demanding that our needs are met? What is wrong with telling a spouse to change their behavior and cease committing hurtful actions? We all have needs and we all like making others happy. There is a reason for that but we need to clearly communicate our needs to those closest to us so they are not confused with wants.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Solid post Bfree!

Totally agree with your likes vs needs point. Really critical in a marriage/relationship. Both parties must understand the difference of their own needs vs. wants. Then they must clearly and consistently communicate those needs to their partner. 

We cannot depend on someone else to meet our every want, or in reality, our every need. But if we are honest about our true NEEDS (hint: it should be a pretty short list), then the challenege is to ensure we are openly communicating those needs to our spouses. Not hinting. Not implying. Stating them. "I need you to treat me with respect at all times.". Or, "I need you to always tell me the complete truth." 

Many times we get lazy or want to avoid difficult conversations. It's human nature. But it's also a resentment builder and relationship crusher. My wife and I now try to set aside one evening every few weeks for a dinner out. Just us. And we do some homework ahead. 

We each think about what has been going well, what hasn't since the last time out. With specific examples. It allows us to celebrate the good moments while discussing some of the less than good moments. And the underlying reason they were not good. But it also reminds us how the good moments far outweigh the bad.

We then rate how we have been feeling on a 1 to 10 scale about our intimacy, our communication and our anger/resentment. This keeps us focused on clearly communicating needs to eachother and working to deliver on them. Plus, it gives us a nice night out focused on us on a pretty regular basis. Just a note on something that has been working well for us over the last 18 months or so. 

Perhaps the biggest benefit is it gives a correct platform to have some of the discussions that need to happen. It keeps us from feeling like we are always picking at eachother, since we can hold on to some of the annoyances (i.e. not major issues, just littler things) for the next discussion. But it also ensures they do get discussed, vs just stuffing them down and building resentment. 

The first few times we did it, the conversations were pretty intense (as you can imagine). But over time, there are fewer and fewer surprises. It's more about just ensuring we know where the other is coming from. And that we each feel listened to and understood. 

Lots of really good posts lately here guys, keep it up! I have been stepping away from TAM more and more, but still like to drop in and check on things once and a while. 

My wife is on another international trip this week, which is probably the reason I am back on. Doing pretty darn well, but it's always tough. This is only the second trip since D-Day over two years ago (she went abroad back in march this past year, some may remember). And she is doing an awesome job of checking in, sending texts etc. She gets it, knows how hard it is for me. She hates the feelings it drags up, and knows it is all becuase of the bad decisions she made. But we also know it is part of the gig in her job, and we agree it is infrequent enough that we can work through it. 

Anyway, I need to get some work done. Keep up the good work Reconcilers!


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## EI

calvin said:


> The people who on this thread who care,support,give sound advice and offer
> themselves up as a crutch always amazes me.
> The strenght,determination and love of those who are working on their R hard and who still have
> the energy and patience left to help other and listen is just icredible to me also.
> Just a lot of good folks here.
> And a couple Bears fans doesn't hurt.
> I'm thankful for this thread and the folks on here.
> Just wanted to say that.
> God bless you all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ditto this post, Calvin! The people who post on this thread are simply the best.... nothing short of amazing. Even the posters who just drop in with a post or two, but usually post elsewhere on TAM, tend to be a little less hardcore when posting here. 

About the Bears part. I can take it or leave it.  I struggle to understand how you can be from Kentucky and NOT be a Kentucky Wildcat. I mean, seriously??? :scratchhead: We even bleed blue 'round these parts!


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## joe kidd

Go Big Blue! Stayed away from Dad if the Wildcats lost a b-ball game. lol


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



jupiter13 said:


> Been in the very rooms you are talking about bfree and I have found there some of the most intelligent people I will ever met. I agree with you completely about the use being symptoms of anger resentments and bitterness but I dealt with mine a long time ago. The Black and white thinking pattern has always been one of those issues. It is either right or it is wrong we were not raised to think in the abstract or even consider there are shades of gray. Rapping your mind around that is hard when your programmed one way but forced to accept another.


You're right. Part of my growing up involved realizing that black/white thinking is simplistic. The very nuances of life reside in the gray area. And it it's very hard to change...but worth it.


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## vellocet

bfree said:


> My main problem in that thread was the contradicting advice given by people. We say to expose in order to kill the affair but then we advise not to give the WS a second chance because the BS is now plan B?


Well, that's not exactly contradicting advise. It is if the premise to expose the affair is to kill it in order for reconciliation to be possible.

But some will say expose as a matter of making sure the other side suffers the consequences, and plan on leaving the WS anyway.




> We advise the 180 to help protect the BS but then how is there to be any emotional reconnection? We say the WS needs to do the heavy lifting but then we tell the BS not to let their husband/wife know what it is they need in order to heal?


Hmmm, don't know who said that. But I will always advise anyone reconciling what they should expect from their WS in order to start healing.

What I'm wondering is, what is it WS in this thread think they have to do in order for the BS to be comfortable with their decision to grant the WS a second chance?




> We tell the BS to ignore the WS's words and only watch their actions but when the WS's actions show they're remorseful we tell them to ignore it because its not genuine?


It depends if their actions truly show remorse, or they are just doing it to shut the BS up.


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## vellocet

EI said:


> I agree that you're not "exactly" a hang 'em high guy, because I have seen a few of your posts with a more measured response than some of the others. But, it is still apparent that you are not pro-reconciliation. I think what I find curious is that you state that you are "more in favor of not reconciling than for it." Are you saying this "in general" or just for yourself, personally?



More for myself. But I am not in favor of it for the majority of cases out there. There are exceptions and I believe if a WS is truly remorseful and want to do nothing but forge on with 100% commitment and focus on their spouse, then the best of luck.

But I don't believe reconciliation is for most. A small few, but not most. Just my opinion.




> I think the answer to what needs to be done to make the BS comfortable depends on what your BS needs for you to do.


Fair enough. What would you say if a BS said if they are to grant a 2nd chance to the WS, then there are certain behaviors/activities the WS needs to give up in order to keep their marriage. Activities such as, for example, going out with drinks with friends without the spouse? Guys/girls nights out, etc?

May I ask what you were doing when having an affair? Was it after work? Partying? Staying out at the clubs til 3am? Or just sneaking whatever time you could?


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## nuclearnightmare

I'm one of the drop-ins, and I've enjoyed reading the posts on the last 4-5 pages and agree that a lot of thought is going into them. Bfree in particular. I'm a fairly judgemental poster on TAM regarding infidelity. But I admit I don't view all acts of infidelity as equal, in the moral sense, say. here are some thoughts:

-- some of the cheating stories on TAM describe actions and behaviors I think are unforgivable. Certainly the BS cannot let the episode consume them and render them unhappy permanently....they have to 'let it go' in that sense, eventually, while they move on with their life without the WS. But I don't see why they would ever be compelled to tell the WS they are forgiven, or even think it. example - the WS rejecting the BS sexually, for years on end, while at the same time conducting a PA with someone else - unforgivable.

-- on the other hand I have a hard time judging the WS too harshly if THEY were the spouse that had been rejected sexually over an extended period of time. am sure that can put a person under tremendous pressure, leading to an affair.

-- for cases that lie in between the understandable and the unforgivable, I tend to think that more often than not the BS can heal better, and heal more fully if they divorce the WS and go out and start fresh with a new partner. their healing then not being so dependant on the efforts, sincerity or "heavy lifting" of the WS - the person responsible for the intense hurt they are needing to heal from. and this irregardless of how remorseful the WS is. The emotional health of the BS should always take precedence over "saving the marriage," IMO. The BS is a human being, the marriage is not. People need saving much more than relationships do.

-- and yes if children are involved difficult decisions can become unbearable, I'm sure. But in terms of the relationship betwen the two people itself.....the above.


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## nuclearnightmare

johnAdams said:


> Bfree, you give some good advice! Some of the more thought out and insightfull posts without being negative. I also let it consume me for years. I think listening to you and a few others on TAM helped me better "deal with it" and to better R.


John - 

I am happy for you. But I'm curious, why have you recently deleted most of your posting history on TAM? i.e. 80-90% of it?


----------



## bfree

nuclearnightmare said:


> I'm one of the drop-ins, and I've enjoyed reading the posts on the last 4-5 pages and agree that a lot of thought is going into them. Bfree in particular. I'm a fairly judgemental poster on TAM regarding infidelity. But I admit I don't view all acts of infidelity as equal, in the moral sense, say. here are some thoughts:
> 
> -- some of the cheating stories on TAM describe actions and behaviors I think are unforgivable. Certainly the BS cannot let the episode consume them and render them unhappy permanently....they have to 'let it go' in that sense, eventually, while they move on with their life without the WS. But I don't see why they would ever be compelled to tell the WS they are forgiven, or even think it. example - the WS rejecting the BS sexually, for years on end, while at the same time conducting a PA with someone else - unforgivable.
> 
> -- on the other hand I have a hard time judging the WS too harshly if THEY were the spouse that had been rejected sexually over an extended period of time. am sure that can put a person under tremendous pressure, leading to an affair.
> 
> -- for cases that lie in between the understandable and the unforgivable, I tend to think that more often than not the BS can heal better, and heal more fully if they divorce the WS and go out and start fresh with a new partner. their healing then not being so dependant on the efforts, sincerity or "heavy lifting" of the WS - the person responsible for the intense hurt they are needing to heal from. and this irregardless of how remorseful the WS is. The emotional health of the BS should always take precedence over "saving the marriage," IMO. The BS is a human being, the marriage is not. People need saving much more than relationships do.
> 
> -- and yes if children are involved difficult decisions can become unbearable, I'm sure. But in terms of the relationship betwen the two people itself.....the above.


Whether something is unforgivable or not is really up to the person that is doing the forgiving. I have my boundaries and my dealbreakers but they are personal to me only. Someone else might be able to forgive that I simply cannot. Furthermore forgiveness should occur regardless of the state of the marriage. Forgiveness is for the person who was injured not for the perpetrator. Sometimes forgiveness can occur but the marriage still cannot be saved. Every situation is unique to the parties involved.

As for healing better by splitting up I don't really agree with that. I divorced my spouse after she had an affair and it took me many years of living in a dark place before I eventually healed. Rookie divorced his wife and later on wanted to reconnect with her but was unable to. I truly believe he wishes things had gone differently. Sometimes having the WS around to help in the healing is the best way for the BS to heal. Again, its all dependent on the people involved.

BTW, drop in more often.


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## manticore

here, I think this case have a lot of hope, but she is making a crucial mistake:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/151521-name-nothing.html


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## joe kidd

Watching Polar Express with my 4 yr old son. He is so damn awesome!


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Watching Polar Express with my 4 yr old son. He is so damn awesome!


 Sounds good man,pidge enjoying it with you two?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

A WS does not deserve forgiveness but will take that forgiveness and do everything in her heart to mend the marriage. She will no longer go out with friends without hubby. Not because he said so but to make sure he feels comfortable. She will let and welcome him to spy, check facebook and all other internet things, phone records ect. She will make sure to listen and follow through with his needs. She will also speak up if hubby is doing anything that bothers her, so that she doesn't build up resentment. She would not be still in the marriage if her husband treated her like crap the rest of the marriage or punished her daily because that is not a good marriage to be in. She will do all she can to change the symptoms of the marriage to be a better healthy relationship. She, the WS I am speaking of is me . There are many more things I will do to make our marriage work because I love Calvin with all my heart and will forever be grateful for him. I hurt myself when I remember the terrible things I said and did. It is hard to like myself but that is ok because...I don't have to like my old self. I can learn to like the new, better healthier me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Sounds good man,pidge enjoying it with you two?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She would pop in, busy cooking.


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## johnAdams

nuclearnightmare said:


> John -
> 
> I am happy for you. But I'm curious, why have you recently deleted most of your posting history on TAM? i.e. 80-90% of it?


 The short answer is that I was PO that my wife was attacked without mercy when she tried to answer questions in a nice way. I truly have to give credit to EI and the few other WS on this site for posting at all. Most of us on this site are the BS and most of us are having a very difficult time learning to deal with it. I certainly suffered for years over my wife's A. I came to TAM to see if I am the only one that struggled after so long. I found help on this site. Many people had good advice. It made me reflect. A couple of people recommended a couple of excellent books that both my wife and I read. On top of that it was the anniversary month of D Day and I was convinced that it would be one of the worst months of my life. I saw my wife really trying to help me through the month. I truly appreciated her help and effort. For years, I thought she had no remorse. In hind sight, I now see that neither of us knew how to handle the situation. We did not have advice like TAM, we tried a counselor but she was very bad and of no use. Everything seemed to come together this year; the advice, the books, my wife's special efforts. I learned to forgive. I learned to deal with it. I have relief for the first time in years.

Now, we have been very happy these many years we just had this giant elephant in the room that we both avoided. I told her about TAM after all started clicking. She came on read my posts and replied a few times on my thread. She tried to play nice. She tried to answer questions. But, after I saw several people including you attack her without mercy I deleted all my posts that I could. The few left I could not delete for some reason. She did not ask me to delete anything but being the protective husband I am I thought she does not need this Sh...

So, that is the long answer. And not asked, but the reason most R including me is Love. If I remember correctly, you are not a BS? Prior to my wife's A I would be the first to say I would never stay in such a situation. There are few things if anything that goes so against my principles. But when you go through the trauma of an A you do many things that you never thought you would do. 

Sorry for the rant and I mean no disrespect but regardless of the WS sin attacking without mercy is not called for.


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## sidney2718

johnAdams said:


> The short answer is that I was PO that my wife was attacked without mercy when she tried to answer questions in a nice way.


I'm sorry about the attacks. As you noted later many of us are trying to heal ourselves in difficult situations. But I would hope that we all learn that matters are often more complex than they seem at first posting. And that we all learn that we can show mercy along with our comments.


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## bfree

John, I'm sorry your wife was treated so badly. What many here do not understand or want to understand is that WS's hurt as well. They are in pain and are searching for answers just like the BS's. Yes they did a terrible thing but it doesn't negate their pain. We need to learn the difference between holding them accountable and simply piling on. There is just no need for multiple 2x4 shots to the head over and over. There is a place for tough love. There is even a place for a negative comment or two. But it seems each and every person is trying to take their pound of flesh. Eventually there is no body left to heal.


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## Mr Blunt

> *Quote by John Adams*
> The short answer is that I was PO that my wife was attacked without mercy when she tried to answer questions in a nice way
> 
> She did not ask me to delete anything but being the protective husband I am I thought she does not need this Sh...


John
You words above are so encouraging. You remind me of B1, another very encouraging BS. Your words above also tell me that you and Mrs. John Adams are kicking the unforgiving dragon right in the AZZ!!
I LOVE IT!!!


*Mr. Adams taking up for his wife tells me that Mrs. Adams is a valuable wife!*

Mr. and Mrs. Adams your positive R is something that TAM needs more of.

The title of this thread is RECONCILIATION;
the title is NOT lets kick a remorseful and good woman when she is down!!

Blunt


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## soulpotato

bfree said:


> I'm sorry your trip wasn't all you hoped it would be. All I can say is that it takes two to make a relationship and as much as you want this to work it may not. Let me ask you this. If you pulled back and concentrated less on DS and more on things to make yourself a better more well rounded person what would happen? Do you think that maybe you want this too much and she is feeling smothered?


It does take two. DS seems to think she is doing just fine on her half, so I'm kind of at a loss. If I pull back, we'll get even further apart, and then it will truly be a relationship in name only. I don't think I'm smothering her - I think a lot of people would find our interaction was often a bit distant, actually. I guess any time I really care strongly about anyone, it's a problem. People like me a lot better when I don't care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

nuclearnightmare said:


> I tend to think that more often than not the BS can heal better, and heal more fully if they divorce the WS and go out and start fresh with a new partner. their healing then not being so dependant on the efforts, sincerity or "heavy lifting" of the WS - the person responsible for the intense hurt they are needing to heal from. and this irregardless of how remorseful the WS is. The emotional health of the BS should always take precedence over "saving the marriage," IMO.


R, and keeping the WS around isn't only about saving the marriage, it's about learning and growing as a person, and about the emotional health of the BS. Running to the arms of another isn't going to stop the pain, or cure anything. 

A damaged BS may 'start fresh' with this new partner, and right away think "I wonder if she really cheated on her partner and isn't telling me... I wonder if she'll cheat.." It's not as if you're instantly cured because you choose to divorce. You're going to have scars and baggage.. 

In an R where both partners are working, both are doing heavy lifting (required), you can get closure easier than if you're not even communicating.. instead of being bitter and carrying anger and hatred. 

BS' always talk about the WS being selfish, and then many of them can't even see that a WS is (in many cases) a person that is in pain, a fellow human. When a WS chooses to work on R, and do the heavy lifting.. this can also be seen as a gift to the BS, instead of being blamed, continuing to be painted as a monster to family and friends.. instead of lawyers and courts, I get to learn about how my wife was vulnerable and at a low point in her life and a man in work was in her ear and made her feel special with all the attention.. She took it too far, and let the friendship evolve into a LTPA. She's not a horrible person. She's a person that was doing horrible things and making excuses to herself to justify that it was all okay... If she can see that, admit those faults, and work to recognize, and avoid situations that can lead to those things. Why not help her.. will getting revenge heal me better? Will running from the situation help me better? 

I'll take my WS telling me how sorry she is, and how she doesn't deserve for me to give her a second chance, and how blessed she feels for every second she gets to be in my life, over fighting her for custody.

We are a couple that had decades of wonderful times.. are very compatible, and always had an amazing love life, with much more good than bad. She was always a caring mother and wife, took very good care of us and was faithful and loyal for decades. She wasn't a cheater, she wasn't a bad person, she wasn't a cruel and abusive person. We grew apart, got too comfortable, still had sex but after 20 or so years together, since children, she got sucked into an affair... I could spend the rest of my life trying to punish her. Trying to destroy her. Trying to crush her, like she crushed me. Thats just not who I am, or how I do things. I'm a very forgiving person by nature. Now, saying that, if she ever even shows signs of pushing me away or cheating, or if I see any hint of that horrible person re-emerge, then I will run for the hills. One thing I've learned in all of this, is that I can survive with or without her. I just choose to stay with her, because I want to right now.. and I tend to think that I should do what makes me feel good, to heal me... I'm being selfish.


----------



## illwill

Wow.


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> It does take two. DS seems to think she is doing just fine on her half, so I'm kind of at a loss. If I pull back, we'll get even further apart, and then it will truly be a relationship in name only. I don't think I'm smothering her - I think a lot of people would find our interaction was often a bit distant, actually. I guess any time I really care strongly about anyone, it's a problem. People like me a lot better when I don't care.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then it seems that your relationship with DS is in an imbalance right now. If my wife pulls back I immediately notice and come to her to ask why, ask what is bothering her, ask how we can fix it together. When I pull back she instinctively knows something is wrong and immediately comes to me. If you pull back from DS and she doesn't come forward to make up the distance then something isn't right. Maybe its a trust issue. Maybe she was detached for so long that its taking her a while to come back from that. I don't really know. I wish I had an answer for you. All I can do is pray that one will reveal itself.

As for people liking you more when you don't care, I think its less that you don't care and more that they are perceiving your aloofness as confidence. People like people who are confident and self assured. Does DS perceive you as "needy?" Could that be what is throwing things off? I don't know, I'm just offering up suggestions.


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## russell28

illwill said:


> Wow.


Feel free to elaborate.. :scratchhead:


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## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Then it seems that your relationship with DS is in an imbalance right now. If my wife pulls back I immediately notice and come to her to ask why, ask what is bothering her, ask how we can fix it together. When I pull back she instinctively knows something is wrong and immediately comes to me. If you pull back from DS and she doesn't come forward to make up the distance then something isn't right. Maybe its a trust issue. Maybe she was detached for so long that its taking her a while to come back from that. I don't really know. I wish I had an answer for you. All I can do is pray that one will reveal itself.


I would agree that there's a definite imbalance. DS does notice at some point when I pull back, but I couldn't say that she's often interested in what is bothering me or asking what can be done to fix it. The times she does, it's very limited. Like she meters every investment to make sure she doesn't give "too much" or give me "control". She also gets defensive and critical, which I don't know how to deal with. She recently told me that when I bring up an issue for us to look at and discuss that she feels I'm expecting her to single-handedly fix it and do all the work. I'm not sure where she gets that from as we both acknowledge that it takes two, and I'm busting my a$$ here. DS is "naturally" a very detached person. Meaning, she learned that from her FOO. When things are good (her mood is ok and we're not having any problems), she puts forth the effort to try to show caring. The rest of the time, things can get a bit chilled. A lot of push-pull. Now that I've become a lot more emotionally available, her frquent lack of emotional availability is killing me. I don't know how to express that to her because she takes a lot of things as assaults. All the "I feel" statements seem useless. She is so defensive and guarded. 



bfree said:


> As for people liking you more when you don't care, I think its less that you don't care and more that they are perceiving your aloofness as confidence. People like people who are confident and self assured. Does DS perceive you as "needy?" Could that be what is throwing things off? I don't know, I'm just offering up suggestions.


Lack of emotional involvement shows as confidence, huh? I suppose it would. DS has always perceived me as needy, primarily because she's most comfortable with low-emotion, low-connection relationships. I've been her only serious relationship as an adult, so I think she has this idea that other people would be fine with her level of affection/connection and that I'm just super needy. (Yes, I need more than some people because of the way I am, but I've done my best to lower my bare minimum requirement.) But even the therapist said that the first part of our relationship probably would've been unbearable for anyone due to the sheer emotional barrenness of it. She was shocked at some of what DS said. I love DS, and she has a lot of great qualities. When she is more emotionally present and connected, I couldn't ask for more. But those times are infrequent. I'm hoping that she can learn to be more affectionate and emotionally available, more supportive. I had thought she was making some progress, but now it's going backwards.

I wish I could need less. 

She was actually supposed to call me last night..but I knew she wouldn't, so I just did my own thing. Sure enough, a few hours after work was out, she texted and said she was still at the work party so she wouldn't be calling. What did I think? "I'm not a priority. She'd rather stay at the party with her work buddies." I tried to tell myself maybe there was some reason she really couldn't leave. I haven't heard from her since. Nor have I pestered her. This isn't unusual, especially when I'm being "difficult" by trying to talk about things. She shuns me and goes dead communication-wise. I'm supposed to stay at her place this weekend, but I'm not sure I should go now. I really want Christmas to be good this year for both of us, not depressing, but I'm afraid that I can't make that happen. Again, I could do my best to pretend everything was ok, but I don't feel that would be right or helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill

russell28 said:


> Feel free to elaborate.. :scratchhead:


I personally disagree with everything you just said. But, i thought it was powerful. Although, I could never view infidelity that way.

Having said that, im glad this thread is here. Peope need to know how hard it is to reconcile, but that it can be done. 

Ive sent several friends here who wanted to reconcile. And they said it gave them hope.

I pray that every one of you find success. I hope you all get happy endings.


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> I would agree that there's a definite imbalance. DS does notice at some point when I pull back, but I couldn't say that she's often interested in what is bothering me or asking what can be done to fix it. The times she does, it's very limited. Like she meters every investment to make sure she doesn't give "too much" or give me "control". She also gets defensive and critical, which I don't know how to deal with. She recently told me that when I bring up an issue for us to look at and discuss that she feels I'm expecting her to single-handedly fix it and do all the work. I'm not sure where she gets that from as we both acknowledge that it takes two, and I'm busting my a$$ here. DS is "naturally" a very detached person. Meaning, she learned that from her FOO. When things are good (her mood is ok and we're not having any problems), she puts forth the effort to try to show caring. The rest of the time, things can get a bit chilled. A lot of push-pull. Now that I've become a lot more emotionally available, her frquent lack of emotional availability is killing me. I don't know how to express that to her because she takes a lot of things as assaults. All the "I feel" statements seem useless. She is so defensive and guarded.
> 
> 
> 
> Lack of emotional involvement shows as confidence, huh? I suppose it would. DS has always perceived me as needy, primarily because she's most comfortable with low-emotion, low-connection relationships. I've been her only serious relationship as an adult, so I think she has this idea that other people would be fine with her level of affection/connection and that I'm just super needy. (Yes, I need more than some people because of the way I am, but I've done my best to lower my bare minimum requirement.) But even the therapist said that the first part of our relationship probably would've been unbearable for anyone due to the sheer emotional barrenness of it. She was shocked at some of what DS said. I love DS, and she has a lot of great qualities. When she is more emotionally present and connected, I couldn't ask for more. But those times are infrequent. I'm hoping that she can learn to be more affectionate and emotionally available, more supportive. I had thought she was making some progress, but now it's going backwards.
> 
> I wish I could need less.
> 
> She was actually supposed to call me last night..but I knew she wouldn't, so I just did my own thing. Sure enough, a few hours after work was out, she texted and said she was still at the work party so she wouldn't be calling. What did I think? "I'm not a priority. She'd rather stay at the party with her work buddies." I tried to tell myself maybe there was some reason she really couldn't leave. I haven't heard from her since. Nor have I pestered her. This isn't unusual, especially when I'm being "difficult" by trying to talk about things. She shuns me and goes dead communication-wise. I'm supposed to stay at her place this weekend, but I'm not sure I should go now. I really want Christmas to be good this year for both of us, not depressing, but I'm afraid that I can't make that happen. Again, I could do my best to pretend everything was ok, but I don't feel that would be right or helpful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope she finds a way to learn to open up more. If not I fear she will have a very lonely life. I guess you have to decide what you are willing and able to tolerate. We all have to make concessions in relationships but if your basic needs aren't being met I'm not sure you can sacrifice that for very long before you start to lose sight of yourself. All I can do is pray and send you (((())))


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## nuclearnightmare

johnAdams said:


> The short answer is that I was PO that my wife was attacked without mercy when she tried to answer questions in a nice way. I truly have to give credit to EI and the few other WS on this site for posting at all. Most of us on this site are the BS and most of us are having a very difficult time learning to deal with it. I certainly suffered for years over my wife's A. I came to TAM to see if I am the only one that struggled after so long. I found help on this site. Many people had good advice. It made me reflect. A couple of people recommended a couple of excellent books that both my wife and I read. On top of that it was the anniversary month of D Day and I was convinced that it would be one of the worst months of my life. I saw my wife really trying to help me through the month. I truly appreciated her help and effort. For years, I thought she had no remorse. In hind sight, I now see that neither of us knew how to handle the situation. We did not have advice like TAM, we tried a counselor but she was very bad and of no use. Everything seemed to come together this year; the advice, the books, my wife's special efforts. I learned to forgive. I learned to deal with it. I have relief for the first time in years.
> 
> Now, we have been very happy these many years we just had this giant elephant in the room that we both avoided. I told her about TAM after all started clicking. She came on read my posts and replied a few times on my thread. She tried to play nice. She tried to answer questions. But, after I saw several people including you attack her without mercy I deleted all my posts that I could. The few left I could not delete for some reason. She did not ask me to delete anything but being the protective husband I am I thought she does not need this Sh...
> 
> So, that is the long answer. And not asked, but the reason most R including me is Love. If I remember correctly, you are not a BS? Prior to my wife's A I would be the first to say I would never stay in such a situation. There are few things if anything that goes so against my principles. But when you go through the trauma of an A you do many things that you never thought you would do.
> 
> Sorry for the rant and I mean no disrespect but regardless of the WS sin attacking without mercy is not called for.


John:

OK. But I don't recall attacking her; not at all. I do recall I put in one post where I ask her a couple questions about her attitudes and words to you just after her ONS. According to your own posts, she had said some unbelievably cruel things to you in the aftermath of her infidelity. I think I was asking her why.

So I believe that was the jist of my questions. tough questions do not equal an 'attack' I will attempt to check what I said in that post, but don't know if that's possible if the thread has been deleted...but I will see.


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## nuclearnightmare

russell28 said:


> R, and keeping the WS around isn't only about saving the marriage, it's about learning and growing as a person, and about the emotional health of the BS. Running to the arms of another isn't going to stop the pain, or cure anything.
> 
> A damaged BS may 'start fresh' with this new partner, and right away think "I wonder if she really cheated on her partner and isn't telling me... I wonder if she'll cheat.." It's not as if you're instantly cured because you choose to divorce. You're going to have scars and baggage..
> 
> In an R where both partners are working, both are doing heavy lifting (required), you can get closure easier than if you're not even communicating.. instead of being bitter and carrying anger and hatred.
> 
> BS' always talk about the WS being selfish, and then many of them can't even see that a WS is (in many cases) a person that is in pain, a fellow human. When a WS chooses to work on R, and do the heavy lifting.. this can also be seen as a gift to the BS, instead of being blamed, continuing to be painted as a monster to family and friends.. instead of lawyers and courts, I get to learn about how my wife was vulnerable and at a low point in her life and a man in work was in her ear and made her feel special with all the attention.. She took it too far, and let the friendship evolve into a LTPA. She's not a horrible person. She's a person that was doing horrible things and making excuses to herself to justify that it was all okay... If she can see that, admit those faults, and work to recognize, and avoid situations that can lead to those things. Why not help her.. will getting revenge heal me better? Will running from the situation help me better?
> 
> I'll take my WS telling me how sorry she is, and how she doesn't deserve for me to give her a second chance, and how blessed she feels for every second she gets to be in my life, over fighting her for custody.
> 
> We are a couple that had decades of wonderful times.. are very compatible, and always had an amazing love life, with much more good than bad. She was always a caring mother and wife, took very good care of us and was faithful and loyal for decades. She wasn't a cheater, she wasn't a bad person, she wasn't a cruel and abusive person. We grew apart, got too comfortable, still had sex but after 20 or so years together, since children, she got sucked into an affair... I could spend the rest of my life trying to punish her. Trying to destroy her. Trying to crush her, like she crushed me. Thats just not who I am, or how I do things. I'm a very forgiving person by nature. Now, saying that, if she ever even shows signs of pushing me away or cheating, or if I see any hint of that horrible person re-emerge, then I will run for the hills. One thing I've learned in all of this, is that I can survive with or without her. I just choose to stay with her, because I want to right now.. and I tend to think that I should do what makes me feel good, to heal me... I'm being selfish.



Russell

Well recovering from anything will be easier in New England. It'll admit that (l.e. I like New England......beautiful)

This post is indeed a powerful one. It demonstrates how much capability you have to love and forgive, no question there.
A person like that,though, can also be taken advantage of, be manipulated by the ones they love......the ones they feel they must not give up on.
Your wife is a human being, but one that has just demonstrated to you that she can go many years (5?) Humiliating you, lying to you, betraying you. I.e. NOT loving you. So after that is she NOW capable of loving you, does she now love you? Call me skeptical on that, very skeptical.

I have read several of your threads and I do find your story heartbreaking. I am sympathetic to you. I am not sympathetic with your wife. You are mid 40s..late 40s? My bottom line is that I think there women out there, available, that have a much stronger character, much stronger emotional core than she does. You could love them and they could love you. I am not sure your wife is capable of returning your love, however. Not the person she is now. Otherwise she would not have done what she did. I don't see it being much more complicated than that.

I am sorry, Russell. That is how I see these kinds of situations.


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## bfree

Actually I don't see it as the WS humiliating the BS. I see it as the WS humiliating themselves. And along with guilt I think it's another source of their pain.


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## nuclearnightmare

bfree said:


> Actually I don't see it as the WS humiliating the BS. I see it as the WS humiliating themselves. And along with guilt I think it's another source of their pain.


BFREE

Could you remind me........you were cheated on (your wife??)
Did you R?


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## ConanHub

Gotta say Russ, I think you might be nuttier than my great aunts Christmas cake but I am glad whatever is going on with your situation is working for you.
Cheers. :smthumbup:


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## calvin

That was heartwrenching and beautiful at the same time Mrs.Adams.
Thank you.
Gives me a lot of hope.
God bless you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Mrs. Adams.
Thank you for sharing. I would not have stayed had it been me but I appreciate your husbands position and do not think him any less than me.
I will say however, that while you are probably not a bad person now, you certainly became one at one point in your life. 
We are what we do. It seems you have made good choices for the better part of thirty years now transforming yourself into a worthy individual.:smthumbup:

I would also like to state that had my wife behaved like you had, I would have divorced her and forgiven her and I would have never stopped loving her, I just would not have been married to her anymore.

These aren't contradictory statements.

I do very much appreciate people who reconcile and share their stories.
Thank you.


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## calvin

I don't know their story,from what I read from Mrs.Adams post I know enough.
Its always good to hear success in a R,no matter how long it takes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Dear Mr. Nuclearnightmare,
> Let me properly introduce myself. I am Mrs. John Adams. I have been married to the love of my life for almost 42 years. We have a beautiful family, a beautiful home, and beautiful life.
> I am a very outgoing, optimistic person. I am a musician. I am a perfectionist and I have OCD tendencies. I tend to have very low self-esteem. I have always struggled with my weight. I have always excelled in music. Music has been my life both at school and church. My parents were extremely conservative and very strict. I had very little experience with boys. I was very naïve.
> John is a very quiet, shy, serious man. He has always been very responsible and much older than his years. He tends to be pessimistic…or realistic as he calls it…lol.
> John and I met at church. I was 16, he was 18. I asked him out first and much to my surprise…he agreed to take me out on a date. That was the beginning for us. I of course fell head over heels in love…John had to analyze it all for a while...lol we had sex for the first time 4 months later. We got married 8 months to the day after we met. John was 19; I was 17 and a junior in high school. John was in the military, so shortly after we got married we moved away from our families. We only had each other. We had very little money but we were ecstatically happy. We both are HD and sex has always been very important to us. We started a family. Life was good.
> John got out of the military and went back to college while working full time to support his family. He loved us and wanted to make life the best it could be. It was a stressful time for him. A few years went by, I watched too much Phil Donohue, and I began to feel like I was unimportant. John encouraged me to go back to school as well. I enrolled, received a scholarship, and became a full time student. I loved going to school…it was fun. John hated going to school…he was tired. It only took about 6 months for a wall to go up between us. I tried to tell him, he didn’t see it.
> And now Mr. Nuclearnightmare is the very sad part of our story. I am not going to go into details, because quite honestly, it is painful to go back to this time and place. I met a man…a player…who knew the right things to say and do. I made terrible choices. I was purely selfish. I did not think about John. I did not think about my children, I did not think about my parents. I had an ONS with this player. I confessed what I had done to John. I said terrible things to John. I shared things I should never have shared. I don’t think I realized the impact the things I told him would have on him. We went to a psychologist for a short while but we both agreed she was of no help so we stopped going.
> In all honesty, I don’t remember saying much of the things John tells me I said. I don’t remember many of the details. Maybe it has been my way of dealing with what I have done. John says he never saw remorse. That is hard for me, because I know how many times I have cried, I know how many times I have thought he would be better off without me, I know how many times I wished I were brave enough to take my own life. I know I said I was sorry. But John never heard me. I know how many times I begged for forgiveness and he would say he forgave me…but he didn’t. For thirty years, John has been consumed with what I did. So many things would trigger him, and he would fall into deep depression…which then would cause me to also be depressed. I can hear myself say to John…you are doing this to punish me aren’t you? We both withdrew.
> This year, I decided no matter what…I was NOT going to let him fall into depression. I did not care what I had to do. I showered him with love, I reassured him with words…and we talked like we have never talked before. He asked me to read a book and I did and it clicked…I had said so many things wrong. I made sure THIS time John would hear how sorry I was, not just for what I had done, but for the pain I had caused him. I took responsibility for my actions in a way that FINALLY touched him and he could truly forgive me.
> Mr. Nuclearnightmare, I owe you no explanations or answers to any questions. The only person I owe anything to is John. I can never take away what I have done…I will live with that knowledge the rest of my life. I almost destroyed my husband, my family, my life. It was my decision, my choice. John had no say in what I did. He did not choose to have an unfaithful wife and he certainly did not deserve what I did to him. I owe him EVERYTHING for sticking with me all these years…and let me tell you why he has stayed. LOVE. This man loves me more than life itself. You know how I know that? Because it is the exact same way I feel about him.
> Will John ever get over what I did? No. You get over a cold or a broken bone. You don’t get over a death…and what I did killed something very precious to him. I vowed to be true to him the rest of my life…that he would be my only lover. I lied. I broke my promise. I can tell him I will never do it again…but I lied the first time. I truly understand how hard it is to trust again.
> Many things have happened since I betrayed my husband…there are always two sides to every story…and I don’t think it is necessary to reveal our lives like an open book. I am not here to defend myself or to make excuses. If our story helps anyone else to reconcile or to know there is always hope, then writing this dissertation was worth it.
> John and I have remained in love, in lust, for these past thirty years despite the odds that are against us. We are lucky, because ultimately we never wanted to be apart. It has taken years of work to get to where we are today. And it was worth every last minute of the effort we have put into this relationship.
> John is worth it…and yes…so am I. I did a bad thing, but I am not a bad person.
> Thank you baby for loving me, thank you for protecting me, thank you for allowing me to love you all these years. Oh yes…you are worth it…absolutely!


It took courage to post that. Your hubby should be proud of you. And you are a lucky woman. Best wishes.


----------



## jim123

russell28 said:


> Feel free to elaborate.. :scratchhead:


If I may...

I say wow to a man who took strong action for his family, for his marriage and for himself.

I say wow for a man who got control.

I say wow for a man who got control then showed love, compassion, understanding and forgiveness.


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## jim123

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Dear Mr. Nuclearnightmare,
> Let me properly introduce myself. I am Mrs. John Adams. I have been married to the love of my life for almost 42 years. We have a beautiful family, a beautiful home, and beautiful life.
> I am a very outgoing, optimistic person. I am a musician. I am a perfectionist and I have OCD tendencies. I tend to have very low self-esteem. I have always struggled with my weight. I have always excelled in music. Music has been my life both at school and church. My parents were extremely conservative and very strict. I had very little experience with boys. I was very naïve.
> John is a very quiet, shy, serious man. He has always been very responsible and much older than his years. He tends to be pessimistic…or realistic as he calls it…lol.
> John and I met at church. I was 16, he was 18. I asked him out first and much to my surprise…he agreed to take me out on a date. That was the beginning for us. I of course fell head over heels in love…John had to analyze it all for a while...lol we had sex for the first time 4 months later. We got married 8 months to the day after we met. John was 19; I was 17 and a junior in high school. John was in the military, so shortly after we got married we moved away from our families. We only had each other. We had very little money but we were ecstatically happy. We both are HD and sex has always been very important to us. We started a family. Life was good.
> John got out of the military and went back to college while working full time to support his family. He loved us and wanted to make life the best it could be. It was a stressful time for him. A few years went by, I watched too much Phil Donohue, and I began to feel like I was unimportant. John encouraged me to go back to school as well. I enrolled, received a scholarship, and became a full time student. I loved going to school…it was fun. John hated going to school…he was tired. It only took about 6 months for a wall to go up between us. I tried to tell him, he didn’t see it.
> And now Mr. Nuclearnightmare is the very sad part of our story. I am not going to go into details, because quite honestly, it is painful to go back to this time and place. I met a man…a player…who knew the right things to say and do. I made terrible choices. I was purely selfish. I did not think about John. I did not think about my children, I did not think about my parents. I had an ONS with this player. I confessed what I had done to John. I said terrible things to John. I shared things I should never have shared. I don’t think I realized the impact the things I told him would have on him. We went to a psychologist for a short while but we both agreed she was of no help so we stopped going.
> In all honesty, I don’t remember saying much of the things John tells me I said. I don’t remember many of the details. Maybe it has been my way of dealing with what I have done. John says he never saw remorse. That is hard for me, because I know how many times I have cried, I know how many times I have thought he would be better off without me, I know how many times I wished I were brave enough to take my own life. I know I said I was sorry. But John never heard me. I know how many times I begged for forgiveness and he would say he forgave me…but he didn’t. For thirty years, John has been consumed with what I did. So many things would trigger him, and he would fall into deep depression…which then would cause me to also be depressed. I can hear myself say to John…you are doing this to punish me aren’t you? We both withdrew.
> This year, I decided no matter what…I was NOT going to let him fall into depression. I did not care what I had to do. I showered him with love, I reassured him with words…and we talked like we have never talked before. He asked me to read a book and I did and it clicked…I had said so many things wrong. I made sure THIS time John would hear how sorry I was, not just for what I had done, but for the pain I had caused him. I took responsibility for my actions in a way that FINALLY touched him and he could truly forgive me.
> Mr. Nuclearnightmare, I owe you no explanations or answers to any questions. The only person I owe anything to is John. I can never take away what I have done…I will live with that knowledge the rest of my life. I almost destroyed my husband, my family, my life. It was my decision, my choice. John had no say in what I did. He did not choose to have an unfaithful wife and he certainly did not deserve what I did to him. I owe him EVERYTHING for sticking with me all these years…and let me tell you why he has stayed. LOVE. This man loves me more than life itself. You know how I know that? Because it is the exact same way I feel about him.
> Will John ever get over what I did? No. You get over a cold or a broken bone. You don’t get over a death…and what I did killed something very precious to him. I vowed to be true to him the rest of my life…that he would be my only lover. I lied. I broke my promise. I can tell him I will never do it again…but I lied the first time. I truly understand how hard it is to trust again.
> Many things have happened since I betrayed my husband…there are always two sides to every story…and I don’t think it is necessary to reveal our lives like an open book. I am not here to defend myself or to make excuses. If our story helps anyone else to reconcile or to know there is always hope, then writing this dissertation was worth it.
> John and I have remained in love, in lust, for these past thirty years despite the odds that are against us. We are lucky, because ultimately we never wanted to be apart. It has taken years of work to get to where we are today. And it was worth every last minute of the effort we have put into this relationship.
> John is worth it…and yes…so am I. I did a bad thing, but I am not a bad person.
> Thank you baby for loving me, thank you for protecting me, thank you for allowing me to love you all these years. Oh yes…you are worth it…absolutely!


Welcome to reconciliation. John has been waiting for you. Learn to communicate on the tough things as he did not know you where waiting for him.

I would wish you good luck but I think you already have it with each other.


----------



## EI

I just gotta say that I LOOOOOOOVE the dialog that takes place on this thread. I love the contributions of every single poster here. I love everything about it. I'm not gonna start naming names because you all know that if I get on a roll, I'll be typing all night long and I've got too many presents to wrap to get started on a lengthy post now. 

I'm so excited to see so many new posters here. I can't help but get a little kick out of the way that even some of the, typically, more "outspoken" TAMers will tone it down a bit when posting on this thread. 

I, honestly, believe that treating everyone with respect, even when disagreeing with their choices, opens the door to the kind of communication that is absolutely a vital part of reconciliation. I have gained so much insight from the posters here. That insight has not only been a huge factor in changing the course of my marriage, but in many of my other relationships, as well, including those with my children and my friends.

Thank you all. And, welcome newbies!


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> I just gotta say that I LOOOOOOOVE the dialog that takes place on this thread. I love the contributions of every single poster here. I love everything about about it. I'm not gonna start naming names because you all know that if I get on a roll, I'll be typing all night long and I've got too many presents to wrap to get started on a lengthy post now.
> 
> I'm so excited to see so many new posters here. I can't help but get a little kick out of the way that even some of the, typically, more "outspoken" TAMers will tone it down a bit when posting on this thread.
> 
> I, honestly, believe that treating everyone with respect, even when disagreeing with their choices, opens the door to the kind of communication that is absolutely a vital part of reconciliation. I have gained so much insight from the posters here. That insight has not only been a huge factor in changing the course of my marriage, but in many of my other relationships, as well, including those with my children and my friends.
> 
> Thank you all. And, welcome newbies!


Many times it takes a tough tone to get them to this thread and the wonderful people on this thread.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Quote of Mrs. John Adams
I have been married to the love of my life for almost 42 years.
My wife and I have been together since 1967
Tomorrow is our anniversary and I am taking her to see “Saving Mr. Banks” I also have a box of Pecan Carmel turtle chocolates, her favorite!



Quote of Mrs. John Adams
I tend to have very low self-esteem. I have always struggled with my weight
Just like my wife



Quote of Mrs. John Adams
I was 16, he was 18
She was 15 I was 18


Quote of Mrs. John Adams
John encouraged me to go back to school as well. I enrolled, received a scholarship, and became a full time student

I encouraged my wife to go back to college, I watched the children bought her new clothes, she found the OM at college. She wore the expensive dress that I bought her to go to his graduation. I threw that dress in a nasty dumpster in front of her.





Quote of Mrs. John Adams
Will John ever get over what I did? No. You get over a cold or a broken bone. You don’t get over a death…and what I did killed something very precious to him.

Mrs. Adams you are a strong woman that can face reality and make the best of it! I am impressed!






Quote of Mrs. John Adams
John is worth it…and yes…so am I. I did a bad thing, but I am not a bad person.

*YES YES YES!!!!
Thank you Mrs. Adams for stating a truth that is known to those with wisdom!!!

My wife did a bad thing but she is a good person!!*


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



nuclearnightmare said:


> BFREE
> 
> Could you remind me........you were cheated on (your wife??)
> Did you R?


My ex (first) wife cheated on me. We divorced. There has not been any infidelity in my current marriage.


----------



## bfree

I love it when the fWS's stand up for themselves without having to get defensive and without needing a defiant tone. It demonstrates a healthy confidence and self esteem. It shows that they have grown and evolved turning tragedy into victory. Just another aspect of this thread that blows me away.


----------



## ConanHub

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Conanhub...
> 
> Had someone asked John if he would stay with a woman who cheated on him, his answer would have been hell no! Could he forgive her? Are you kidding??? Would he continue to love her? GET REAL!!!
> Had someone asked me would you ever cheat on your husband, I would have been totally insulted by the question....and yet, sadly, I did. No one who knows me would have expected that kind of behavior from me. I CERTAINLY would not have anticipated I could ever be a cheater.
> 
> I don't know your story...but in your statement, it appears that you have not been cheated on. I think it is very difficult to predict what our reactions might be to situations we have not experienced.
> 
> I respectfully disagree with your statement...
> 
> I will say however, that while you are probably not a bad person now, you certainly became one at one point in your life.
> We are what we do. It seems you have made good choices for the better part of thirty years now transforming yourself into a worthy individual.
> 
> Worthy of WHAT? Worthy of living, worthy of love?
> I was not a bad person. I made a bad choice. I did a very bad thing. I learned a very important life lesson and I have not repeated the mistake. I did not TRANSFORM myself into a worthy individual....I was BORN a worthy individual just like you were.
> 
> 
> Calvin...John and I are wishing you and your wife the very best.


Not much time to respond but I simply have a different world view than you. I am not going to say mine is better, just different.
I do not believe we are born worthy. When I spoke of your choices I meant being worthy of marriage. I do not consider a cheater worthy of marriage. 
I do believe people are what they do, for example, someone who murders is a murderer. That is not all they are but they are certainly a murderer , no question.
I also believe people can and do change for the better and worse based on their choices.
I do not believe myself better than anyone, but I would never cheat.

I lived through years of terrifying abuse and torture as a child.
I witnessed bad sexual behavior often.
My mother was a party girl and while she never directly harmed me, the people in her life had no such restrictions.
I also had a wonderful grandfather that was stable and stayed with his wife his whole life. 

He was a good example for me and growing up, I learned the benefits from behaving sexually from him and the pain that comes from abusing sex and relationships from my mother.
By the time I met my wife, I had more than my fair share of pain from stupid sexual behavior.
So in a sense I have experienced infidelity and far worse.
I have more than enough pain to last me a lifetime and my wife new this after our first date.
I told her, AND MEANT IT, that infidelity was a dealbreaker.
I still mean it to this day. I simply don't have anymore tolerance left in me after my childhood.
I do believe that everyone has some limit?

If you had continued to mistreat him in that fashion, would he have continued to tolerate it?

Anyhow.


----------



## harrybrown

Mr. and Mrs. Adams-

I am still struggling with the hurt and pain. We are newlyweds, only married for 39 years.

I stay for the one last son at home. He will be gone in 2 years.
i used to love my wife, but she has killed any love. We can not talk about it, or admit that it was her in the picture on our bed that I made.(I made the bed, you know what the bed looks like when you make it) She denies everything. The picture that was sent to me with her and another man naked on our bed, had her kissing his privates. Then I got phone calls about the affair, but I do not know the OM's name.(from the OM's other AP) The OM's other AP told me there was a video posted online with them in it. I found it, but when I clicked on it, my computer was attacked. I never found it again. This was 3 years ago.

How did John get over the hurt and the pain? I am doing the 180 big time. Right now I am planning on leaving in 2 years. I have been reading and purchasing about every book ever mentioned. 

Does he think about it every day like I do?


----------



## illwill

Were you protective and jealous before the affair? This is a honest question and not a insult. I really want tö know.


----------



## johnAdams

harrybrown said:


> Mr. and Mrs. Adams-
> 
> I am still struggling with the hurt and pain. We are newlyweds, only married for 39 years.
> 
> I stay for the one last son at home. He will be gone in 2 years.
> i used to love my wife, but she has killed any love. We can not talk about it, or admit that it was her in the picture on our bed that I made.(I made the bed, you know what the bed looks like when you make it) She denies everything. The picture that was sent to me with her and another man naked on our bed, had her kissing his privates. Then I got phone calls about the affair, but I do not know the OM's name.(from the OM's other AP) The OM's other AP told me there was a video posted online with them in it. I never found it. This was 3 years ago.
> 
> How did John get over the hurt and the pain? I am doing the 180 big time. Right now I am planning on leaving in 2 years. I have been reading and purchasing about every book ever mentioned.
> 
> Does he think about it every day like I do?


Yes, I think about it every day of my life. I know graphic details and yes it haunts me. I have mental pictures and movies.....I cannot imagine having to deal with real pictures like you have.

Mrs. Adams was very honest in giving me all the details. I got to the point of not asking questions because the answers were worse than I imagined.

Mrs. Adams is the love of my life. I cannot and do not want to ever imagine life without her. She is worth the pain. Love can be stronger than you imagined. 

I wish I could erase her affair from my mind. Even better I wish I could go back in time and fight to prevent the affair in the first place. 

Mrs. Adams is trying. I know she loves me. She admits she did a terrible thing, she is sorry. I know she would undo it if she could. Should I have divorced over pride or stayed because of love. Obviously I chose the latter.

Best luck to you whatever you choose. As many of us on here know reconciliation is hard but so are the alternatives.


----------



## Daisy10

What a fascinating thread!!!

(I wish there were more WH's who have reconciled commenting though. I feel like their perspective is lacking online)


----------



## russell28

nuclearnightmare said:


> Russell
> 
> Well recovering from anything will be easier in New England. It'll admit that (l.e. I like New England......beautiful)
> 
> This post is indeed a powerful one. It demonstrates how much capability you have to love and forgive, no question there.
> A person like that,though, can also be taken advantage of, be manipulated by the ones they love......the ones they feel they must not give up on.
> Your wife is a human being, but one that has just demonstrated to you that she can go many years (5?) Humiliating you, lying to you, betraying you. I.e. NOT loving you. So after that is she NOW capable of loving you, does she now love you? Call me skeptical on that, very skeptical.
> 
> I have read several of your threads and I do find your story heartbreaking. I am sympathetic to you. I am not sympathetic with your wife. You are mid 40s..late 40s? My bottom line is that I think there women out there, available, that have a much stronger character, much stronger emotional core than she does. You could love them and they could love you. I am not sure your wife is capable of returning your love, however. Not the person she is now. Otherwise she would not have done what she did. I don't see it being much more complicated than that.
> 
> I am sorry, Russell. That is how I see these kinds of situations.


It's easy to be taken advantage of when you're unaware of the situation. When you become aware, you can take control of the situation. 

I'm well aware that there are women out there that would be willing to love me. It would be great if women came with an emotional core rating, so we could determine ahead of time if they'll have a meltdown at some point in life and resort to self destructive behavior. I didn't see any that were coming with guarantees.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Mrs. Adams you're my hero....

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

jim123 said:


> If I may...
> 
> I say wow to a man who took strong action for his family, for his marriage and for himself.
> 
> I say wow for a man who got control.
> 
> I say wow for a man who got control then showed love, compassion, understanding and forgiveness.


Jim, do you realize that you posted the 11,000th post on this thread? :scratchhead: I'm thinking that you have been around long enough to know the rules! :rules:

I have (mild) OCD issues associated with milestone numbers!  Not to be confused with the entitlement issues associated with (former) WS's! 

Just a lil' humor, Reconcilers!


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> Jim, do you realize that you posted the 11,000th post on this thread? :scratchhead: I'm thinking that you have been around long enough to know the rules! :rules:
> 
> I have (mild) OCD issues associated with milestone numbers!  Not to be confused with the entitlement issues associated with (former) WS's!
> 
> Just a lil' humor, Reconcilers!


There's always the 12,000 post EI!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> There's always the 12,000 post EI!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dibs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

We leave for NJ tonight. Driving this time though so we get to bring the doggies! 13 hours with the person I love the most and my two little cuties...who needs a Christmas present.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manticore

harrybrown said:


> Mr. and Mrs. Adams-
> 
> I am still struggling with the hurt and pain. We are newlyweds, only married for 39 years.
> 
> I stay for the one last son at home. He will be gone in 2 years.
> i used to love my wife, but she has killed any love. We can not talk about it, or admit that it was her in the picture on our bed that I made.(I made the bed, you know what the bed looks like when you make it) She denies everything. The picture that was sent to me with her and another man naked on our bed, had her kissing his privates. Then I got phone calls about the affair, but I do not know the OM's name.(from the OM's other AP) The OM's other AP told me there was a video posted online with them in it. I found it, but when I clicked on it, my computer was attacked. I never found it again. This was 3 years ago.
> 
> How did John get over the hurt and the pain? I am doing the 180 big time. Right now I am planning on leaving in 2 years. I have been reading and purchasing about every book ever mentioned.
> 
> Does he think about it every day like I do?


Hi Harry, I normally don't post against reconcilation in this Thread because I see it as a kind of sanctuary for couples in reconcilation (you know like medieval times), but your case is different from couples who come here looking for advice and guidance, so let me give you my two cents.

In your case reconcilation (true reconcilation) will not be possible, sure you will be able to live and have a stereotypical marriage on the outside but you will never be able to heal and move on from your wife's betrayal under those circumstances.

you already found evidence that an affair happened, so there is no doubt in that regard, but how can you possible reconcile if according to your wife there is nothing to reconcile from:

- how can she help you to heal, if according to her you don't need healing?.
- how can you have mental peace, with the reassuring that she will never do it again if in first place she have not accepted she did it?.
- how can you trust her again, if she had not given you reasons to trust?.
- how can you know there is no contact with OM if you don't even know who OM is?.
- how can you know she is remorseful and also suffering from the pain she put you through. when according to her you have no right to be in pain?.

any kind of reconcilation under this circumstances will imply you buring the true, your pain, you insecurities and pretending to be fine.

the most you will achieve is a fake reconcilation (acchieved by deceiving yourself) pretending that everything is alright and suffering in silence.


----------



## ConanHub

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Conanhub...
> 
> Had someone asked John if he would stay with a woman who cheated on him, his answer would have been hell no! Could he forgive her? Are you kidding??? Would he continue to love her? GET REAL!!!
> Had someone asked me would you ever cheat on your husband, I would have been totally insulted by the question....and yet, sadly, I did. No one who knows me would have expected that kind of behavior from me. I CERTAINLY would not have anticipated I could ever be a cheater.
> 
> I don't know your story...but in your statement, it appears that you have not been cheated on. I think it is very difficult to predict what our reactions might be to situations we have not experienced.
> 
> I respectfully disagree with your statement...
> 
> I will say however, that while you are probably not a bad person now, you certainly became one at one point in your life.
> We are what we do. It seems you have made good choices for the better part of thirty years now transforming yourself into a worthy individual.
> 
> Worthy of WHAT? Worthy of living, worthy of love?
> I was not a bad person. I made a bad choice. I did a very bad thing. I learned a very important life lesson and I have not repeated the mistake. I did not TRANSFORM myself into a worthy individual....I was BORN a worthy individual just like you were.
> 
> 
> Calvin...John and I are wishing you and your wife the very best.


Forgot to say earlier, thank you for good thoughts and wishes. If you pray, I'll take that as well.
I am probably coming across poorly. I actually agree with you on most points. I just differ with you on a couple.
I am a very hard man and sometimes I think I just rub folks the wrong way. I do truly care, I just have some differing views and approaches to painful subjects.
All the time I have now. Again thank you for your perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Conanhub...I am truly and deeply sorry for your struggles in life. I have certainly had my share of disappointment and disillusionment. I won't go into it...it doesn't matter.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion. I respect you for sharing it.
> 
> However, you are still speculating the what ifs and I am living MY reality.
> 
> If a close family member died, how long should I allow you to grieve? Six months...a year? No! I allow you to grieve however long it takes for YOU! I cannot expect you to mourn the same way I would mourn because you are not me!
> 
> Our daughter almost died when she was two years old. People said to us...I do not know how you can deal with this. We dealt with it the best way we knew how...there was no plan of how to deal with a dying child. I don't know if we dealt with it the right way...we certainly would not have chosen to deal with it at all! But we dealt with it.
> 
> My point is...we cannot predict our reactions to tragedy until we are faced with it. John is a very persistent man. In the 42 years I have known him, I have NEVER seen him give up or quit anything. He is responsible, thoughtful, logical, analytical and committed. How much would it take to push him over the ledge for him to quit? I don't know...and I do not intend to find out..


Oh. Just caught this one. I don't view infidelity as a tragedy. I view it as a willfully committed, selfish and evil action that can be prevented by not going down that road.

I do know the horrific pain and loss of infidelity on many levels
Not everyone is lightly enough impacted to even continue living. 

My mother started cheating on my father at least a month after I was born.
She left him for OM. He saw me once and cried.

He apparently had a bad heart because he was dead before I was 2 months old.
Many years ago a good friend of mine committed suicide after his wife cheated on him. Too much pain, it overwhelmed him.
I have experienced many other terrible results of my mothers poor sexual behavior. 
By the time I met my wife, there was just no way I could stomach any more pain in the sexual arena. I needed a safe harbor. I told my future wife what I needed and she has provided that safety ever since.
If Mrs. Conan ever did cheat on me, I would wish her no harm, I would do my best to make sure she was OK and hopefully she could change herself, my love for her would never evaporate, but I could not remain married to her.

My cup is plenty full from the pain of sexual misconduct.

I think people that reconcile with their spouse have great love for each other.
I also think people who divorce have great love as well, they just will not put up with certain circumstances.

I don't think either choice is wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

manticore said:


> Hi Harry, I normally don't post against reconcilation in this Thread because I see it as a kind of sanctuary for couples in reconcilation (you know like medieval times), but your case is different from couples who come here looking for advice and guidance, so let me give you my two cents.
> 
> In your case reconcilation (true reconcilation) will not be possible, sure you will be able to live and have a stereotypical marriage on the outside but you will never be able to heal and move on from your wife's betrayal under those circumstances.
> 
> you already found evidence that an affair happened, so there is no doubt in that regard, but how can you possible reconcile if according to your wife there is nothing to reconcile from:
> 
> - how can she help you to heal, if according to her you don't need healing?.
> - how can you have mental peace, with the reassuring that she will never do it again if in first place she have not accepted she did it?.
> - how can you trust her again, if she had not given you reasons to trust?.
> - how can you know there is no contact with OM if you don't even know who OM is?.
> - how can you know she is remorseful and also suffering from the pain she put you through. when according to her you have no right to be in pain?.
> 
> any kind of reconcilation under this circumstances will imply you buring the true, your pain, you insecurities and pretending to be fine.
> 
> the most you will achieve is a fake reconcilation (acchieved by deceiving yourself) pretending that everything is alright and suffering in silence.



Manticore, this post is absolutely welcomed in this thread. Reconciliation is about so much more than saving a marriage. A true reconciliation has to begin with "saving oneself." It's about becoming happy, healthy, healed, and whole, again. Or, for some, becoming healthy and whole for the first time in their lives. To have a truly successful reconciliation of the marriage, both partners must be actively striving towards that goal. Both partners must be willing to offer their best possible self to the union. One person, no matter how much they may wish to, cannot save a marriage by themselves. 

Having been there, myself, I am, obviously, more compassionate towards "some" WS's than most BS's can be. But, I am not for reconciliation at any cost. The price of "any cost" almost cost me my sanity, my relationships with everyone in this world that I hold dear, perhaps, even my life a few years ago. When deciding if a marriage should be reconciled, one has to decide if the price of saving the marriage means destroying themselves. Without a genuine commitment from both spouses to do everything that is necessary to heal themselves, their spouse, and the relationship, one might remain married, but not necessarily reconciled. 

If you're a BS and you don't feel that your WS is doing enough, or doing enough of what YOU need them to be doing, but you still desire to reconcile your relationship, then tell your WS what you need. Don't expect them to read your mind, but with love and compassion, tell your WS what you you need from them. If you are a WS and you feel as if you can never seem to do anything to satisfy your BS, then ask them what they need from you, and not with exasperation, frustration, or impatience. They're already hurting. If you love them, it should be your desire, to build them back up, not to push them further down. Don't wait for your BS to have to tell you what they need. If your BS is distant, sullen and angry, at times, then understand that this is a direct result of the pain they are enduring because of your actions. Understand that their pain is a reflection of their love for you. Because, if they didn't love you, they wouldn't be hurting so much. See that as the beautiful gift that it is. I know that many, many, wayward wives, have said that they were unfaithful because they did not feel loved by their spouses, pre-A. I can relate to that. But, in the aftermath of D-Day, realize that the pain you see in your BS, the anger, even the disgust, is likely in equal measure to the death of the love that they felt for you and they are grieving the death of that love. 

Whether you are the BS or the WS, if you choose to reconcile, then choose to make your every word, thought, and deed a loving and cherishing action. That doesn't mean that you hold back from your spouse when things are not going well or you're genuinely unhappy, or you need something more or different from them. It's quite to the the contrary. Although, it may be difficult, at first, there is nothing more emotionally intimate than sharing your heart's desires, your thoughts, your fears, your hopes, your insecurities, your heartbreaks, your every feeling, good and bad, with another human being.

Your spouse is truly the other half of you. Love them with every ounce of your being. True love is the gift that keeps giving. The more I love B1, the more he loves me back. We often just hold one another and stare into each other's eyes and marvel at this love that we have found after a relationship that spans over 32 years. True love needs to be given first, in order to be received. But, it has to go both ways. One person cannot do all of the giving, while the other does all of the taking. A successful reconciliation of a marriage require two healthy and whole individuals, coming together, with the genuine desire to make the life of the other better. If either spouse does not have a genuine desire to help, encourage, inspire, heal and love their partner, it's not really a marriage or a reconciliation. It's a legal status. If a WS openly refuses to help heal the wounds that their infidelity has caused then save yourself, not the marriage. That is still reconciliation and it is welcomed on this thread any day. R is about hope and healing.


----------



## Rookie4

Did anybody miss me while I was gone? Or did you all just toss me into the trash can of history.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Did anybody miss me while I was gone? Or did you all just toss me into the trash can of history.


You were gone Rookie?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Did anybody miss me while I was gone? Or did you all just toss me into the trash can of history.


It's not like we can come to you, nut bag!


----------



## EI

calvin said:


> You were gone Rookie?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Who knew? 

:scratchhead:


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Who knew?
> 
> :scratchhead:


Yes I suffered the wrath of the ban hammer.


----------



## calvin

Rookie4 said:


> Yes I suffered the wrath of the ban hammer.


Yanking your chain Rookie,welcome back.
Banned? Ooooo bad boy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manticore

Harry I also wanted to share a method that I have seen really effective when trying to find if a spouse actually had an affair, I posted it in other Threads:

the more easy way to find the truth is with a polygraph test, most of the times the true is revealed before the test, cheaters almost always crack and confess while going where the test is going to be executed.

before actually arranging the test, you can throw a bluff and tell her you already have appointed a polygraph test, ask her if she had nothing to confess because once the test have been taken you will not give second chances.

If she confess something like:

well we just kissed.
well we just fooled around.
well we just had oral.
well it was just once.

then tell her, "okey I will still keep on the appointment but now I will ask if it was really just: a kiss, one oral, one time"

and keep doing it until she confess the whole truth.

remember cheaters will normally confess first the less damaging of their actions, and in much less quantity than the real amount.


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Yes I suffered the wrath of the ban hammer.


I didn't see that......


----------



## nuclearnightmare

russell28 said:


> It's easy to be taken advantage of when you're unaware of the situation. When you become aware, you can take control of the situation.
> 
> I'm well aware that there are women out there that would be willing to love me. It would be great if women came with an emotional core rating, so we could determine ahead of time if they'll have a meltdown at some point in life and resort to self destructive behavior. I didn't see any that were coming with guarantees.


Russell:

its true. we all do the best we can in evaluating a future partner. in the end it is often luck that determines the outcome; some are lucky some are not.

now I say this in all sincerety, and it is not in any way inconsistent with what I said in my previous post: 
_I believe you are a better man than I am._


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Bfree...actually I wrote the above dissertation in defense of my john. I find some of mrnuclearnightmares posts have an accusatory tone to them. Especially since, it appears he is not been cheated on. I don't know if it is just the way I perceive them or if is truly his intention since I do not know him personally.
> 
> I understand remarks made to me by injured and hurt people can be uncomfortable. Sometimes as human we lash out at others and I deserve what I get. However, there are certain things I do not tolerate...do not in any way shape or form ever say anything that I could possibly perceive to be derogatory to my husband.
> 
> I am extremely protective of him...I have his back at all times...and I am extremely jealous. I love and adore this man with my entire being. I am small...but I am strong.
> 
> I am here for two reasons...to support my john...and to give hope to others. Period.


Mrs. Adams:

your long post was moving and it humanized you. I'll admit that.


but on this one. oh dear I hate to break up all the good feelings generated on these last few pages, but I have to say that I didn't attack you in my questions to you last month. and I can't for the life of me ever recall attacking John. In fact I didn't attack John, did I Mrs Adams.......I think we both know that..... I'd be happy to review those posts if I could find them, but I believe they were erased when John's threads and your threads were erased. 

I think it is what I and others said about _you_ in those threads that upset you, and that is the real reason why all of that have been removed from TAM, including your husbands posts. isn't it?

on infidelity you are correct, I am neither prepetrator nor victim.
But I have a lot of life experience just the same, and I know what cruelty looks like and what abuse is. As far as cheating goes I believe what many here believe, which is that most people are capapble of it...including me//.....at very weak times in our lives and under particular circumstances. But get this straight, had I ever cheated on my wife I wouild have NEVER said to her the things you said to your husband afterwards. The intentional infliction of that kind of pain.....there is no chance; none. 

In fact most people would NEVER say such things to their partner, even after cheating on them. It takes a special kind of individual to say those things and take such an attitiude toward their spouse, especially under those circumstances. Your posts are starting to remind me of an individual just like that. Someone I know, somone that was able to 'fool me' for a number of years, but not anymore..........you have every right to continue to post anywhere on TAM. But I think you care deeply what others think of you. That being the case you might want to quit while you're ahead.


----------



## joe kidd

John Adams. Are you happy ? If so who gives one f**k about what the internet thinks. Just a thought from everyone's favorite gunslinger.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Oh mr blunt! I forgot to say HAPPY ANNIVERSARY !!!
> enjoy the movie! Emma Thompson is one of my favorite actresses. John is taking me to see saving mr banks sometime during Christmas week! And...I too love pecan chocolate turtles! Yum!



Thank you Mrs. John Adams!

We just got back a little while ago. I took her to Red Lobster (Sailor’s Platter yum yum) and then to the movies.

I picked the movie “Saving Mr. Banks” because we both love Tom Hanks acting and he is one of our favorite actors. Although Tom is great in this movie, Emma Thompson blew me away! I hope she gets an Oscar WOW!!!

Emma Thompson made me happy, sad , laugh, and cry. Ok you men how do you hide the tears? It is embarrassing for a man with grandchildren t be dropping so many tears that you have to wipe your face and give yourself away! The movie was so powerful that I had to hug my wife. If I watch the original movie Marry Poppins I sure will not view it the same way that I did years ago!

I am so emotionally spent that I am going to go get my Three Stooges DVD to add a little balance!

This is a Reconciliation thread, so no one will say that I am off topic, know that my wife and I had a very good anniversary and warm time together and it is possible because of RECONCILIATION!


----------



## calvin

I would't still be with CSS if I gave a crap what others thought.
I know what I'm doing and I feel I made a safe bet....in fact I know I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

daisygirl 41 said:


> SP
> Sorry your trip didn't go well. I think it's time you started concentrating on you now. It seem like you have done everything you can possibly do. Maybe she is feeling a bit smothered. Pull back and give her some space. It might help you both. She's not going to give you the reactions you want, just because you want it.


I'm still concentrating on me.  She said she is not feeling smothered at this moment... so I don't know exactly. Oh, I know I won't get the reactions I want just because I want them, but I keep making the earnest requests because I am hoping those will break through.


----------



## CantSitStill

I just want to say welcome Mr and Mrs Adams and thank you for sharing your story with us. I am Calvin's wife and I relate a lot with what you are saying. I cannot undo what I did and my cruel words that Calvin will never forget. I hate the way I hurt him. It is his choice to stay with me in our marriage and I am very grateful for this chance. I have had my panic attacks, a lot of crying and suicidal thoughts due to my stupid actions. I still sometimes feel Calvin would be happier if I was dead. He is so hurt and I wish I could fix his pain but the damage is done. Because he loves me and wants me, I will be the wife he deserves and I will hold my head up and be that worthy wife and person that can be proud of the person I have now become. Go
Glad to see you are doing well in your reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I just want to say welcome Mr and Mrs Adams and thank you for sharing your story with us. I am Calvin's wife and I relate a lot with what you are saying. I cannot undo what I did and my cruel words that Calvin will never forget. I hate the way I hurt him. It is his choice to stay with me in our marriage and I am very grateful for this chance. I have had my panic attacks, a lot of crying and suicidal thoughts due to my stupid actions. I still sometimes feel Calvin would be happier if I was dead. He is so hurt and I wish I could fix his pain but the damage is done. Because he loves me and wants me, I will be the wife he deserves and I will hold my head up and be that worthy wife and person that can be proud of the person I have now become. Go
> Glad to see you are doing well in your reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Because we belong with eachother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thummper

Read all the threads from you and CSS. I'm so happy that you two are still together. Others can take heart in your story.


----------



## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> I just want to say welcome Mr and Mrs Adams and thank you for sharing your story with us. I am Calvin's wife and I relate a lot with what you are saying. I cannot undo what I did and my cruel words that Calvin will never forget. I hate the way I hurt him. It is his choice to stay with me in our marriage and I am very grateful for this chance. I have had my panic attacks, a lot of crying and suicidal thoughts due to my stupid actions. * I still sometimes feel Calvin would be happier if I was dead. * He is so hurt and I wish I could fix his pain but the damage is done. Because he loves me and wants me, I will be the wife he deserves and I will hold my head up and be that worthy wife and person that can be proud of the person I have now become. Go
> Glad to see you are doing well in your reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just wanted to highlight this sentence and make an observation. Calvin is no dummy. He knows what he wants and he knows how he feels. By saying what you said there you are deciding for him as to what he needs or wants. Please don't do that. If he wanted you out of his life you would be. He has made the decision to stay with you and to continue to build a life together with you. You need to respect his decision and do your best to live up to your potential. Not the potential calvin sees, or I see or anyone else sees. But the potential as you see yourself. And set that goal high girl. You're a better person than you give yourself credit for. You need to like yourself at least as much as calvin likes you. Anything less would be unfair to both of you.


----------



## illwill

I saw her remark as selfless. She loves him and wants the best for him. Even if its with someone else.

Is that not the very meaning of love?

This says a lot about what kind of woman she is.


----------



## Harken Banks

Every now and then, pretty often in fact, something will happen or I will have a thought that brings back the pain. If my wife sees the pain, she will become disgusted and angry and shoot me a dirty look or say something unkind. As if she thinks I am trying to punish her. It's hard, that hardens it. This has been the pattern all along. Including when I knew something was happening that was not good. She mocked my confusion and pain and reacted angrily. Probably not good.


----------



## bfree

Harken Banks said:


> Every now and then, pretty often in fact, something will happen or I will have a thought that brings back the pain. If my wife sees the pain, she will become disgusted and angry and shoot me a dirty look or say something unkind. As if she thinks I am trying to punish her. It's hard, that hardens it. This has been the pattern all along. Including when I knew something was happening that was not good. She mocked my confusion and pain and reacted angrily. Probably not good.


No, its not good. She should be much more empathetic in regards to your triggering. If I recall correctly though your marriage was one of battles and power struggles even before any infidelity took place. It seems to me that this dynamic was never worked through and is still manifesting itself now. Its sad when people choose to fight through marriage rather than fight for marriage.


----------



## bfree

illwill said:


> I saw her remark as selfless. She loves him and wants the best for him. Even if its with someone else.
> 
> Is that not the very meaning of love?
> 
> This says a lot about what kind of woman she is.


In a way you are correct. However I see it as a type of suicide wish and I know first hand that suicide is a coward's tool. When I was miserable and didn't want to face the uphill battle it was going to take to become clean and work on myself to be a better man I actually came very close to committing suicide. I tried to convince myself that the world would be a better place without me. It was my cowardice talking. Thankfully I was too much of a coward to go through with it.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> In a way you are correct. However I see it as a type of suicide wish and I know first hand that suicide is a coward's tool. When I was miserable and didn't want to face the uphill battle it was going to take to become clean and work on myself to be a better man I actually came very close to committing suicide. I tried to convince myself that the world would be a better place without me. It was my cowardice talking. Thankfully I was too much of a coward to go through with it.


 Yep,I wanted to a couple days after Dday,someone talked me out of it and the
very next day I was hosting my Moms b day party,don't think that would have been
good for her to remember that every year on her birthday.

Screw it,time for a shower and get the hell out of here,won't see this plant for nine
days.

Free at last! Thank God Almighty I am free at last!
.....well,for nine days anyway.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

A well deserved vacation 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> A well deserved vacation
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Amen


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Harken Banks said:


> Every now and then, pretty often in fact, something will happen or I will have a thought that brings back the pain. If my wife sees the pain, she will become disgusted and angry and shoot me a dirty look or say something unkind. As if she thinks I am trying to punish her. It's hard, that hardens it. This has been the pattern all along. Including when I knew something was happening that was not good. She mocked my confusion and pain and reacted angrily. Probably not good.


I understand (am gaining understanding) on how difficult to choose between R or D. But your wife sounds horrible - that's right just me reading this single post seems quite clear to me. Some behavior and attitudes speak for themselves..........no context required.

Are you staying because of kids?


----------



## illwill

Harken Banks said:


> Every now and then, pretty often in fact, something will happen or I will have a thought that brings back the pain. If my wife sees the pain, she will become disgusted and angry and shoot me a dirty look or say something unkind. As if she thinks I am trying to punish her. It's hard, that hardens it. This has been the pattern all along. Including when I knew something was happening that was not good. She mocked my confusion and pain and reacted angrily. Probably not good.


Plan on addressing this?


----------



## illwill

bfree said:


> In a way you are correct. However I see it as a type of suicide wish and I know first hand that suicide is a coward's tool. When I was miserable and didn't want to face the uphill battle it was going to take to become clean and work on myself to be a better man I actually came very close to committing suicide. I tried to convince myself that the world would be a better place without me. It was my cowardice talking. Thankfully I was too much of a coward to go through with it.


I worked at a suicide hotline and i agree to a extent. I dont think she really wanted to die, as much as she wants her hubby to live... fully.

No cowards on this thread. Only fighters from what i see.

And im glad you made it to the other side.


----------



## CantSitStill

The crazy thoughts that have gone through my head on how fo make life better for Calvin were going throughmy headm . How he can live without heatache and financially be away from me without going broke. It was stupid. I even wanted to do a postnup with him. I remember telling him I will go and find a way to live without his money. I felt like a burden he had to face every day. Was thinking if I disappear he would be happier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

My dumb brain was tryjng to find a way to fix him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Bfree what you said about the world being a better place without you reminds me of It's A Wonderful Life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## illwill

CantSitStill said:


> The crazy thoughts that have gone through my head on how fo make life better for Calvin were going throughmy headm . How he can live without heatache and financially be away from me without going broke. It was stupid. I even wanted to do a postnup with him. I remember telling him I will go and find a way to live without his money. I felt like a burden he had to face every day. Was thinking if I disappear he would be happier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is crazy. So much remorse and guilt. I might just be odd but that is profound to me. Very striking show of humility. Im glad you guys made it.


----------



## calvin

illwill said:


> That is crazy. So much remorse and guilt. I might just be odd but that is profound to me. Very striking show of humility. Im glad you guys made it.


 Have we made it?
Not sure if we're quite there,I still have my moments but I'm sure we will make it.
I feel we're at the tail end or at least I know the worst is over.Hardest thing I
ever went through but I'm sure everone here feels the same.
What a long strange trip its been. 
It will be alright.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

harrybrown said:


> Mr. and Mrs. Adams-
> 
> I am still struggling with the hurt and pain. We are newlyweds, only married for 39 years.
> 
> I stay for the one last son at home. He will be gone in 2 years.
> i used to love my wife, but she has killed any love. We can not talk about it, or admit that it was her in the picture on our bed that I made.(I made the bed, you know what the bed looks like when you make it) She denies everything. The picture that was sent to me with her and another man naked on our bed, had her kissing his privates. Then I got phone calls about the affair, but I do not know the OM's name.(from the OM's other AP) The OM's other AP told me there was a video posted online with them in it. I found it, but when I clicked on it, my computer was attacked. I never found it again. This was 3 years ago.
> 
> How did John get over the hurt and the pain? I am doing the 180 big time. Right now I am planning on leaving in 2 years. I have been reading and purchasing about every book ever mentioned.
> 
> Does he think about it every day like I do?


Harry:

That is a terrible story. Does your wife realize you no longer love her? Does she know you plan to leave when your son leaves? Do any of your kids know about this?


----------



## illwill

calvin said:


> Have we made it?
> Not sure if we're quite there,I still have my moments but I'm sure we will make it.
> I feel we're at the tail end or at least I know the worst is over.Hardest thing I
> ever went through but I'm sure everone here feels the same.
> What a long strange trip its been.
> It will be alright.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well you are a lot closer than most. And i think you guys will make it.


----------



## CantSitStill

As each day approaches it s hard to tell. We have good days and then bam a horrible day. Reconciliation is for strong willed people. It is for those that do not give up easily. I am determined that we will stay together forever no matter how hard it gets. I do know the bad days are not nearly done but I am determined to tackle everything that comes our way. On those days that Calvin feels hopeless I will be here to carry him and reassure him that all will be ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> Jim, do you realize that you posted the 11,000th post on this thread? :scratchhead: I'm thinking that you have been around long enough to know the rules! :rules:
> 
> I have (mild) OCD issues associated with milestone numbers!  Not to be confused with the entitlement issues associated with (former) WS's!
> 
> Just a lil' humor, Reconcilers!


Took me a while to think about this one.

If I can use WS speak.

1) Post? What post?
2) I was just trying to protect the newbies from taking the post.
3)The 11,000 post meant nothing to me.
4)Someone broke into my ID and posted.

On the serious side. This is a hard time for all those in pain. Yes the WS owns 100% of the A, the WS and BS own 50% of the problems in the marriage but the WS and BS own 100% of the R.

I hope all those on the thread use the season to build new happy memories and remember why they are still a family and not the pain of the A.


----------



## ConanHub

bfree said:


> In a way you are correct. However I see it as a type of suicide wish and I know first hand that suicide is a coward's tool. When I was miserable and didn't want to face the uphill battle it was going to take to become clean and work on myself to be a better man I actually came very close to committing suicide. I tried to convince myself that the world would be a better place without me. It was my cowardice talking. Thankfully I was too much of a coward to go through with it.


I love your word play.
But.... I don't think everyone who attempts or succeeds in a suicide attempt is cowardly.

I believe sometimes the pain is too overwhelming with no mitigating factors to help.

I am not suicidal at all and never have been but once I contracted spinal meningitis, non lethal kind, and the pain became so great and unrelenting that I was asking my poor wife to hit me in the head with a hammer.

I think too much pain at once without some form of outlet or relief can cause suicide because the person might be driven illogical by their suffering.


----------



## ConanHub

CantSitStill said:


> The crazy thoughts that have gone through my head on how fo make life better for Calvin were going throughmy headm . How he can live without heatache and financially be away from me without going broke. It was stupid. I even wanted to do a postnup with him. I remember telling him I will go and find a way to live without his money. I felt like a burden he had to face every day. Was thinking if I disappear he would be happier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The reason for his pain is like EI said earlier, he feels so much pain because he loves you so much.
If you were gone there would be only pain because the one he loves would be gone.
The one he loves hurt him but also gives him love witch heals and helps the pain.
If someone else had hurt him, your love would help him through. 
Since it was you that hurt him, it makes it harder but he still needs your love to help him with his pain.
I also might just be full of crapola , but maybe your get what I am trying to clumsily say.


----------



## EI

*
"Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds one's resources for coping with pain."*

I've read this many times. I, personally, believe it to be true. I think this applies whether the pain is physical or emotional, in nature. If I were to add my own twist (I don't know who the author is and I didn't want to change the original quote) I might simply change the first four words from "Suicide is not chosen;" to "When suicide is chosen;".


----------



## Want2babettrme

ConanHub said:


> I love your word play.
> But.... I don't think everyone who attempts or succeeds in a suicide attempt is cowardly.
> 
> I believe sometimes the pain is too overwhelming with no mitigating factors to help.
> 
> I am not suicidal at all and never have been but once I contracted spinal meningitis, non lethal kind, and the pain became so great and unrelenting that I was asking my poor wife to hit me in the head with a hammer.
> 
> I think too much pain at once without some form of outlet or relief can cause suicide because the person might be driven illogical by their suffering.


CH, very interesting. I once had viral meningitis (the non lethal kind) also. I remember thinking that getting my head cut off would be an improvement to my situation. The loss of this rather vital part of my body would have been worth getting rid of the pain.


----------



## ConanHub

EI said:


> *
> "Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds one's resources for coping with pain."*
> 
> I've read this many times. I, personally, believe it to be true. I think this applies whether the pain is physical or emotional, in nature. If I were to add my own twist (I don't know who the author is and I didn't what the change the original quote) I might simply change the first four words from "Suicide is not chosen;" to "When suicide is chosen;".


Good quote EI. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Forever Grateful

We made it in this morning. RTBP drove the whole way, with only one stop to sleep for a couple of hours. It is crazy warm in NJ for December! Glad to be back home, even if its only been a few weeks. My niece and nephew finally got to meet our rotties. Had a great time sitting out back with my mom and sisters watching them play. Unfortunately my brother is spending Christmas with his fiance's family but at least he'll be back for New Years.

I'm trying to enjoy this holiday and create new memories for me and RTBP. We've been in a bit of a rut for a few weeks but things have gotten a bit better since MC on Wednesday. RTBP even slept in our bed on Weds and Thurs before we left and he is currently sleep in my old bedroom. So here's to staying positive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

EI said:


> *
> "Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds one's resources for coping with pain."*
> 
> I've read this many times. I, personally, believe it to be true. I think this applies whether the pain is physical or emotional, in nature. If I were to add my own twist (I don't know who the author is and I didn't what the change the original quote) I might simply change the first four words from "Suicide is not chosen;" to "When suicide is chosen;".


:iagree:
When I was 14 a classmate of mine dad committed suicide, I think he was divorcing. I know a few have said that suicide is cowardly but I disagree. He was a firefighter and he risked his life all the time to help others, he was no coward. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Want2babettrme said:


> CH, very interesting. I once had viral meningitis (the non lethal kind) also. I remember thinking that getting my head cut off would be an improvement to my situation. The loss of this rather vital part of my body would have been worth getting rid of the pain.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
I can laugh at it now but I couldn't agree more.

Losing your head sounds like a pretty good trade off!


----------



## illwill

EI said:


> *
> "Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds one's resources for coping with pain."*
> 
> I've read this many times. I, personally, believe it to be true. I think this applies whether the pain is physical or emotional, in nature. If I were to add my own twist (I don't know who the author is and I didn't what the change the original quote) I might simply change the first four words from "Suicide is not chosen;" to "When suicide is chosen;".


As usual you are right. I heard this often while i was training on the hotline. Sad but true. They dont want to die. They just dont want to live in pain anymore. And they are weak at that moment, but not cowards.

How we survive in life, our hope outlast our torment.


----------



## soulpotato

Had a long talk with myself after DS and I got into it yet again over the phone Thursday night. Ironically I had just bought her flowers and a card for when I was going to see her the next night! 

Yeah, there are definitely things that are not right. There are definitely things that cannot stay the same if we are to be happy. But after my "self-talk" Thursday and Friday, I decided to set the issues aside and do my best to show DS my love. I arranged her flowers myself (bought three different bouquets just to get it right - mimicking her favorite Valentine's Day arrangement from several years ago). I wrote in the card that there was nowhere else I'd rather be, and no one else I'd rather be with, even during our worst fights. And then I drove down there to be with her anyway, despite my anxiety and doubt. She read the card the next morning while I was asleep, and she said it was very poignant and made her cry. It was good timing since she'd just woken up from a bad dream in which she was on the outside looking in, seeing me having a good time with other people, but she couldn't get to me. The dream upset her a lot, but I think the card reassured her a bit.

Maybe I can still make this a good Christmas after all. I am really going to give it my best shot.


----------



## jupiter13

I have been in a very dark place several times in my life. I noticed a pattern to some attempts or plans. It has been when I could or would have most likely succeeded that something has always intervened. The last time I got arrested for sleeping in my car hadn't even planned on falling asleep just needed a break and I got one. Something so simple but something that stopped the road I was on and turned me around. Yes I believe there are no cowards in suicide and it is the way of coping with the pain when nothing else works. I know I was there right after D Day when WH told me what was going on. It has also been easy to slip back to that place with every new problem that has come up since. 

GOOD NEWS: I am still hopeful that this pattern will not become something I do regularly. Through IC this time around I think some new information is really going to help me really understand more about myself. Years ago I had thought I was just born damaged, there was a hole in me that could not be filled. We are to accept that before our child is born while we carry our child we talk to it play music for it and form a bond; that the child is influenced by this interaction before birth, But what of an adopted child? The one that does not get that loving nurturing but rather the feelings of being unwanted and unloved. My point you can't have one without the other. There comes fear of abandonment plus many more dealing with adoption that society on a whole failed to consider would ever be a problem. Well it turns out they have seriously taken a look at this very issue and have given it validity. This has given me validation that my beliefs have been correct all along. I can now accept these flaws in the core of myself they do exist I am not imagining things and I can be ok with that. 
MORE GOOD NEWS: WH could actually get help now for being ADHA. No one has address this issue in him before I have been the only one to bring it up so now will look it. I can hardly keep my eyes open hope I wrote better than I feel right now. Good night all


----------



## Harken Banks

nuclearnightmare said:


> I understand (am gaining understanding) on how difficult to choose between R or D. But your wife sounds horrible - that's right just me reading this single post seems quite clear to me. Some behavior and attitudes speak for themselves..........no context required.
> 
> Are you staying because of kids?


Well, this is just one piece of the picture. I have been called bad things here too based on things she wrote that were true but without a lot of context and so, in my view, the judgments were lacking perspective. Same I am sure goes for whatever takeaway someone may have from what I might write here. Still, she did not ever have much patience for me allowing my pain to show. This truly knocked me for a loop. I just could not believe it. Shame on me.

And she's angry at me. Very angry for a long time. Resentments have built up to where it seems she may no longer be able to be nice, even civil to me, even if she wanted. I have not been able to understand it. The theory that she lost respect for me over a period of time and then had nothing left for me but contempt, the NMMNG stuff, is as plausible as any. I am staying in hopes that in time, through patience and perseverance, we can come back together as a couple and a family. That is what I want. I am not sure why she is staying. She doesn't say much on the topic that is encouraging. Quite the opposite in fact. So it is my hope that that is just the anger expressing itself.


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> Had a long talk with myself after DS and I got into it yet again over the phone Thursday night. Ironically I had just bought her flowers and a card for when I was going to see her the next night!
> 
> Yeah, there are definitely things that are not right. There are definitely things that cannot stay the same if we are to be happy. But after my "self-talk" Thursday and Friday, I decided to set the issues aside and do my best to show DS my love. I arranged her flowers myself (bought three different bouquets just to get it right - mimicking her favorite Valentine's Day arrangement from several years ago). I wrote in the card that there was nowhere else I'd rather be, and no one else I'd rather be with, even during our worst fights. And then I drove down there to be with her anyway, despite my anxiety and doubt. She read the card the next morning while I was asleep, and she said it was very poignant and made her cry. It was good timing since she'd just woken up from a bad dream in which she was on the outside looking in, seeing me having a good time with other people, but she couldn't get to me. The dream upset her a lot, but I think the card reassured her a bit.
> 
> Maybe I can still make this a good Christmas after all. I am really going to give it my best shot.


People think I'm crazy when I talk to myself. But those talks often turn out to be very productive and enlightening ones. They say patience is a virtue. I must be because its so damned hard sometimes. As long as things are moving forward and not backward I say give it time and see what develops. You'll know in your heart when you have nothing else to give and its over. It certainly doesn't sound like that's where you and DS are so I still have hopes that things will work out. You know I am always praying for you both.


----------



## russell28

Forever Grateful said:


> :iagree:
> When I was 14 a classmate of mine dad committed suicide, I think he was divorcing. I know a few have said that suicide is cowardly but I disagree. He was a firefighter and he risked his life all the time to help others, he was no coward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He left a14 year old with double trauma.. Firefighter, mailman, unemployed, punk ass move.. Sorry, but he gets no pass from me just because he was a 
firefighter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Harken Banks said:


> Well, this is just one piece of the picture. I have been called bad things here too based on things she wrote that were true but without a lot of context and so, in my view, the judgments were lacking perspective. Same I am sure goes for whatever takeaway someone may have from what I might write here. Still, she did not ever have much patience for me allowing my pain to show. This truly knocked me for a loop. I just could not believe it. Shame on me.
> 
> And she's angry at me. Very angry for a long time. Resentments have built up to where it seems she may no longer be able to be nice, even civil to me, even if she wanted. I have not been able to understand it. The theory that she lost respect for me over a period of time and then had nothing left for me but contempt, the NMMNG stuff, is as plausible as any. I am staying in hopes that in time, through patience and perseverance, we can come back together as a couple and a family. That is what I want. I am not sure why she is staying. She doesn't say much on the topic that is encouraging. Quite the opposite in fact. So it is my hope that that is just the anger expressing itself.


I worked with a man in group that was always angry at his wife. And his wife was even more angry all the time with him. Try as we might nothing seemed to work to dissipate their anger. Yet they both stayed together for some inexplicable reason. We took that as a hopeful sign that they would eventually work things out. The leader of the group made a suggestion that to be honest had me shaking my head. He told them to get in the ring and box each other. What was even stranger than his suggestion is that they accepted it. They both started working out and practicing for their big bout. Eventually the day came and they both climbed in the ring. It went about as you'd expect. The husband was hesitant to really hit her. The wife had no such reservations although most of her blows were fended off quite easily. Eventually she caught him with a good shot right to the face. He started laughing as a little blood tricked from his nose. At first she was angry because she thought he was laughing at her for being weak. So she hit him a few more times but he kept laughing. Eventually she started laughing as well. Things got much better after that. They were both in a much better place than where they started. They had both worked on a common goal even if it wasn't always together. They were both in much better physical condition. And they were finally able to let go of their anger. I'm not saying you should put on your boxing gloves and sock your wife in the mouth. But maybe you and she can find some common goal, some way for each of you to release all this anger and resentment that you harbor.


----------



## russell28

When we talk about affairs, selfish behavior.. People get hurt, we talk of collateral damage and excuses.

With suicide, what we have is selfish behavior fueled by justifications ( world would be better off without me ).

People get hurt. You can't help people if you're dead, in fact you will cause more pain for all. Get off the damn ledge, pick your sorry ass up and stop the pity party. 

I've seen suicide tear so many people apart. It's a horrible thing to do and never a solution.. Things will get better, if you think it's revenge, people will get on with lives, you won't if you're stupid enough to take your own life. If it's because of an affair, then congrats you're now also a selfish home wrecking jerk... How can you rip?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare

Harken Banks said:


> Well, this is just one piece of the picture. I have been called bad things here too based on things she wrote that were true but without a lot of context and so, in my view, the judgments were lacking perspective. Same I am sure goes for whatever takeaway someone may have from what I might write here. Still, she did not ever have much patience for me allowing my pain to show. This truly knocked me for a loop. I just could not believe it. Shame on me.
> 
> And she's angry at me. Very angry for a long time. Resentments have built up to where it seems she may no longer be able to be nice, even civil to me, even if she wanted. I have not been able to understand it. The theory that she lost respect for me over a period of time and then had nothing left for me but contempt, the NMMNG stuff, is as plausible as any. I am staying in hopes that in time, through patience and perseverance, we can come back together as a couple and a family. That is what I want. I am not sure why she is staying. She doesn't say much on the topic that is encouraging. Quite the opposite in fact. So it is my hope that that is just the anger expressing itself.



HB:

thanks. I'll try to take in more background on your story from your other posts. you said "based on things she wrote......" does she post on TAM?


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## ConanHub

russell28 said:


> When we talk about affairs, selfish behavior.. People get hurt, we talk of collateral damage and excuses.
> 
> With suicide, what we have is selfish behavior fueled by justifications ( world would be better off without me ).
> 
> People get hurt. You can't help people if you're dead, in fact you will cause more pain for all. Get off the damn ledge, pick your sorry ass up and stop the pity party.
> 
> I've seen suicide tear so many people apart. It's a horrible thing to do and never a solution.. Things will get better, if you think it's revenge, people will get on with lives, you won't if you're stupid enough to take your own life. If it's because of an affair, then congrats you're now also a selfish home wrecking jerk... How can you rip?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Russ. I honestly can't wrap my head around your take as a BS, but I'm still not going to criticize you for your R or how your doing it.

You have a different take on suicide than I do. I don't promote or condone suicide, and maybe sometimes, cowardice is involved. However ... A very close person to me ended his life many years ago and I truly believe it was simply too much pain with no hope at once.

Please be careful with the criticism. You are able to see your wife as something other than an adulteress, maybe you could see my deceased friend as something other than a coward. He was a better father than me and just thinking about him now is causing me to tear up. 
Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28

I can criticize a person for leaving a 14 year old behind, I think it was a poor choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

I had a good friend who committed suicide quite some time ago. I was heartbroken about it, but I didn't hold it against him. Maybe because I understand where he was when he did that. I've always thought it was strange that people would ask a suicidal person to basically live "for" them/others when they/others wouldn't live "for" that person or be there.

Anyway, I don't see what good it does to make derogatory remarks about/to suicidal people. Telling people they are selfish and cowardly is NOT going to prevent them from committing suicide. If anything, it will encourage them.


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## russell28

I'm not telling a suicidal person they are a selfish coward.. They still have a choice to not go that route and rise above. Once they pull that trigger... I've seen what it does to the family and friends. At 12 my friends mother jumped off a bridge.. Another friend, twin brothers both hung themselves two years apart. My friend John was troubled and took his life after a bad acid trip messed him up...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

I still have to believe and support that suicide is not about an affair, getting hurt by someone, loss or having a bad day. It is simply the end result of someone that can not or is unable to cope with the pain their are experiencing at the moment. A person in pain views themselves as a burden to family and friends that care about them. That is justification to it wouldn't bother anyone.


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## bfree

Wishing everyone a very merry Christmas. I love this time of year and today especially. It reminds me of all that is good and precious in my life. Today reinforces that my belief in God and I rejoice in His mercy. I was dead inside but now I rejoice in the light of love.


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## calvin

Merry Christmas peoples!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thummper

I wish everyone a wonderful family day. Enjoy each other. Life passes so quickly. Merry Christmas, everyone!:noel:


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## joe kidd

My 4 yr old is chucking Angry Bird toys at me saying " Take that King Pig". Must have got that from his mother.


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## TBT

Though not a contributor to this thread,the overall tone and substance of it has added such a positive to my TAM experience.Merry Christmas to you all.Wishing you all may find peace and happiness wherever your roads may lead.


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## jupiter13

Yes Hoping everyone has a wonderful day and be safe.......Merry Christmas


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## EI

Merry Christmas, everyone! The food has been eaten, the presents unwrapped, cleaning up the aftermath will take time, several cycles of the dishwasher, and at least two weeks of pickups from the garbage man.  I don't remember the holidays being this exhausting when I was younger. It was the first Christmas ever when B1 and I had to wake the kids up to open their presents. Of course, they probably had just gone to bed shortly before we got up. Two of our "children" don't even live "at home," anymore, so we exchanged gifts with them last night after B1's Dad, Mom, step-Father, sisters, niece, and everyone's spouses or significant others left. Gone are the days when B1 stays up all night on Christmas Eve building and assembling toys for 5 "children." They like different kinds of toys now and most of them don't require assembly..... just waaaay too much money. 

Now, we're all relaxing, eating leftovers, and enjoying what Santa has brought. 

My Christmas wish for each of you would be a day filled with family, friends, love, hope, peace, happiness, great food, and maybe some cool new "stuff," as well. And, if you are a believer, I hope that you remember to thank Him for the greatest gift ever known to man. The reason for the season, "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins," (Matt. 1:21).

I'm exhausted, B1 and I have, yet another, challenging year head of us, with our special needs son moving into his own home, with assistance, in a couple of weeks, and B1 and I, along with our two youngest sons, moving shortly thereafter. Life is constantly changing and with each change, there are new challenges to face. But, whatever comes, B1 and I have one another and our children are all healthy, employed and/or in school. I had some minor health problems of my own this past year, but I recently had surgery and everything appears to be taken care of now. 

B1 is....... simply amazing. I'm not ashamed to admit that his renewed strength, devotion, love and commitment have made me a happier person. No one can change us, nor can we change others. But we can be inspired to change by the effect others have on us. He makes me want to be a better person. I am simply more complete, more content, more fulfilled, more hopeful, more...... everything, when he and I are working together. I do need him. I just do. When I could no longer feel his commitment to me and our marriage, I was lost. Very little mattered, I was simply floundering. But, now, anything and everything seems possible, even in the midst of uncertainty. He loves me. I love him. Reconciliation is our gift to one another.


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## thummper

Lots of luck to you and your hubby in the coming year, EI! Your struggles together, I think, have inspired a lot of people at TAM.


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## calvin

I hope ya'll had an excellent Christmas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

DS was horribly spoiled by me for Christmas, as usual. I expend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to trick her and surprise her with cool stuff EVERY YEAR, LOL. One of these years, I am going to have to give up on that objective!


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## soulpotato

Was also grateful. Christmas Eve last year, I was crying alone in an empty house, grieving for what I thought I could never have again. Christmas was always OUR holiday. 

It was so weird to think about that with DS fast asleep against my side, and us being back together (she cannot stay awake through my documentaries for anything, but cuddling up to me and watching them until she passes out is one of her favorite things). Really glad that things are so different from what they were a year ago.


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## calvin

I'm happy to hear that Sp.
I pray things keep getting better for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

For those that were in contact with pidge, thanks for your well wishes.


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> For those that were in contact with pidge, thanks for your well wishes.


 You guys take care of eachother.
CSS was my anchor when life beat me up pretty good and had me down.
She never wavered.
Pidge is there for you man.
Prayers guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

joe kidd said:


> For those that were in contact with pidge, thanks for your well wishes.


Joe, when/if you want to share, you know that there are many of us here who truly care. You can pour you heart out if you need to. Or you don't have to say a word. Just know that we're here for you. 

Reconcilers, Joe and Pidge can use your thoughts, prayers, support, and encouragement. Dig, if you're out there, go hug a tree. Do it for Joe.


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## CantSitStill

Thinking of you Joe and Pidge and praying. Life sometimes feels so so unfair. We all need to hug our loved ones because you may not have them tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> I notice that some on here have a "If you R you let her get away with it" stance. I wonder, did I? Right or wrong I gave her hell. True hell. For the longest time her name was wh*re. Yes , that's how she was addressed .
> 
> 
> She also lived in limbo, never knowing what I was going to do or say or how I was going to act. FOR 3 YEARS!
> 
> She could have left ( I would have). I guess she felt she deserved it and that is what she had to do to keep me.
> 
> She walked with shoulders slumped and looked at me with guilt in her eyes the whole time. I don't know why, but that would piss me off even more.
> 
> She had paid a high price IMO. I don't feel she has gotten away with anything. She knows she screwed up and seems thankful that she gets to keep her family.
> 
> 
> Debt paid Pidge...no balance due.


I love you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> I notice that some on here have a "If you R you let her get away with it" stance. I wonder, did I? Right or wrong I gave her hell. True hell. For the longest time her name was wh*re. Yes , that's how she was addressed .
> 
> 
> She also lived in limbo, never knowing what I was going to do or say or how I was going to act. FOR 3 YEARS!
> 
> She could have left ( I would have). I guess she felt she deserved it and that is what she had to do to keep me.
> 
> She walked with shoulders slumped and looked at me with guilt in her eyes the whole time. I don't know why, but that would piss me off even more.
> 
> She had paid a high price IMO. I don't feel she has gotten away with anything. She knows she screwed up and seems thankful that she gets to keep her family.
> 
> 
> Debt paid Pidge...no balance due.


 I hear you load and clear joe,the only thing stopping us is us.
How much more time do we need? Couple more years? 
We want our wives to be happy and have them see us in a strong light.
We'd go to hell and back for them,I feel that part of our journey is over.
Time to move on to the happy ever after part.
Hope youre doing well under the circumstances.
Take care man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

With a little faith and hope we will all be just fine. Remember that in those moments of doubt whenever in a little arguement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

No more of who is right and who is wrong. It's about love. We love eachother and that is what keeps us going.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kindone

El that's so god to hear that you guys are cool now; very inspiring. Maybe there is hope for some of us!! All the best.


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## calvin

Load and clear?......ugh

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

calvin said:


> Load and clear?......ugh
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like a toilet paper brand.


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## calvin

pidge70 said:


> I love you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 You do love him,any bonehead could tell that,same as CSS with me.
I was the bonehead who didn't really belive it.
No more sandbaging us.
Joe mentioned not being able to pay for what happend,they have paid.....
with high interest.
So have other WS's here.
I have no one I can confide in like I do CSS......no one like her.
Good luck on the niners tomorrow joe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

If a WS is genuinely remorseful, I can promise you with absolute certainty, that there is NO punishment that their BS can exact from them that compares to the punishment that they heap upon themselves...... NONE. By the same token, if a BS truly desires to reconcile with their remorseful WS, in order to have a truly happy, healthy, and successful reconciliation (which is far, far different than simply remaining in the relationship,) then their desire to love and forgive their WS must far outweigh their desire/need to punish them. It must be the desire of the BS and the WS to work together to create an environment that will promote the healing of, both, themselves, and of one another. Only, then, can the possibility of a genuinely, happy and successful reconciliation truly exist. IMHO.


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## calvin

I agree EI,staying married does not mean you are married in the true sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

EI said:


> If a WS is genuinely remorseful, I can promise you with absolute certainty, that there is NO punishment that their BS can exact from them that compares to the punishment that they heap upon themselves...... NONE. By the same token, if a BS truly desires to reconcile with their remorseful WS, in order to have a truly happy, healthy, and successful reconciliation (which is far, far different than simply remaining in the relationship,) then their desire to love and forgive their WS must far outweigh their desire/need to punish them. It must be the desire of the BS and the WS to work together to create an environment that will promote the healing of, both, themselves, and of one another. Only, then, can the possibility of a genuinely, happy and successful reconciliation truly exist. IMHO.


I would love to see a sticky made out of this. It is so true in so many cases.


----------



## CantSitStill

I love the way you put that EI. When people reconcile, they need to stop and think about what changes they need to make in themselves and ways they need to improve treating their spouse. They should not focus too much on what was but on what they are doing now. It needs to be where both are doing the work to make it better and not just one person in the relationship. We all want our needs filled but sometimes we selfishly think only of our own needs and forget about our spouses needs. That is not good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

sidney2718 said:


> I would love to see a sticky made out of this. It is so true in so many cases.


:iagree:

Too many of us forget this on CWI. It is far easier to burn the wayward at the stake.

And crucify the BS that still loves the wayward.......

Thanks EI for reminding us.

HM


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



CantSitStill said:


> I love the way you put that EI. When people reconcile, they need to stop and think about what changes they need to make in themselves and ways they need to improve treating their spouse. They should not focus too much on what was but on what they are doing now. It needs to be where both are doing the work to make it better and not just one person in the relationship. We all want our needs filled but sometimes we selfishly think only of our own needs and forget about our spouses needs. That is not good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll go one step further. Every single person in a long term relationship should always be looking to make changes and improve themselves and their part in that relationship. Too often we just go through life like jellyfish drifting on the tide. We need to be more like salmon, loving life in the water but willing to swim upstream if the goal is noble. Now, this shark is going to cuddle up with his mermaid and watch a movie.


----------



## CantSitStill

I have to say, I am guilty of what I said just a little bit ago. We went to the video store, I couldn't wait to get outa there so I got impatient and acted very immature. Good thing Calvin called me out on it so that I can next time do a better job of thinking of him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

I decorated our tree while CSS sat on the couch and played games on her phone.
My daughter was at work,my son pulled out all the decorations out of the closet.
That was a big help.
I'll keep having a real tree,I do wish that someone helped me decorate it.
Its no big deal,everyone was tired that day.
Why the hell did I bring this up!?
Good night tonight,don't want to jinx it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Because I still have alot to work on honey. I am not there yet. I still have ugly moments of laziness and it is not fair to you. Still working on my faults. It is not a contest but I must admit. You are doing a great job and I still have a ways to go. I'm sorry honey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

We all have a ways to go but we all will get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

joe kidd said:


> I notice that some on here have a "If you R you let her get away with it" stance. I wonder, did I? Right or wrong I gave her hell. True hell. For the longest time her name was wh*re. Yes , that's how she was addressed .
> 
> 
> She also lived in limbo, never knowing what I was going to do or say or how I was going to act. FOR 3 YEARS!
> 
> She could have left ( I would have). I guess she felt she deserved it and that is what she had to do to keep me.
> 
> She walked with shoulders slumped and looked at me with guilt in her eyes the whole time. I don't know why, but that would piss me off even more.
> 
> She had paid a high price IMO. I don't feel she has gotten away with anything. She knows she screwed up and seems thankful that she gets to keep her family.
> 
> 
> Debt paid Pidge...no balance due.


Forgiveness is for you. It enables you to love her again and let her love you.

R is not letting a WS get away with anything if the WS truly wants to save the M and loves the BS.

It takes a lot of love for someone to admit they made a mistake, change themselves and go through hell to save the M.

You will not find someone who loves you move.

Reach out and help her heal. Let her help you heal.

Time to stop the anger and take your life back. Do it for you and your family.


----------



## jim123

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Too many of us forget this on CWI. It is far easier to burn the wayward at the stake.
> 
> And crucify the BS that still loves the wayward.......
> 
> Thanks EI for reminding us.
> 
> HM


The EPA had banned burning waywards at the stake.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> Forgiveness is for you. It enables you to love her again and let her love you.
> 
> R is not letting a WS get away with anything if the WS truly wants to save the M and loves the BS.
> 
> It takes a lot of love for someone to admit they made a mistake, change themselves and go through hell to save the M.
> 
> You will not find someone who loves you move.
> 
> Reach out and help her heal. Let her help you heal.
> 
> Time to stop the anger and take your life back. Do it for you and your family.


Good stuff
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> The EPA had banned burning waywards at the stake.


Did they???
Aw damn!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> Did they???
> Aw damn!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep and stoning is not covered under the new healthcare law either. Turns out that with so many middle aged BH participating, the only safe person was the WW. Too many rotator cuff injuries and BH's being hit with throwing errors.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> Yep and stoning is not covered under the new healthcare law either. Turns out that with so many middle aged BH participating, the only safe person was the WW. Too many rotator cuff injuries and BH's being hit with throwing errors.


Lol!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> Good stuff
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now we just have to cast out your demons.

Let's hope our Bears beat the Pack.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> Now we just have to cast out your demons.
> 
> Let's hope our Bears beat the Pack.


 Believe me I'm trying.
Yep,go Bears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

No more trying, time to do. Do not let a low life take your life from you. Help your WW through this. You will be surprised the great feeling you will get by doing this.

For the Bears, with that D as bad as it is I don't have too much hope. I am going to my parents so I will save my TV.


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Believe me I'm trying.
> Yep,go Bears.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


(Yoda voice) No. Try not. Do or do not. There is no try. 

Hope the Bears win! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Glad everyone is doing relatively well. Christmas was pretty good all things considered. No incidents like what happened with my dad during our Thanksgiving visit. I got RTBP a few things he really liked including a PS4. RTBP got me a beautiful necklace and a handbag. We also spent some time on Christmas with his family as well his family and the next day we went to see the rest of his family in Brooklyn.

RTBP seems to be doing better as well. He still struggles at time but overall he is handling it as best as he can. Spending time a way from Chicago and coming back home seems to have help him distract himself, he's been spending a lot of time getting in contact with old friends. He is allowing intimacy again, in fact after we left his family on Christmas evening we spent the rest of the night at a hotel to get away from my packed house and finally get a bit of privacy. 

Can't wait for New Year's eve. We're going to a party in Atlantic City with my older sister, my BIL, my brother and my STBSIL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

As for me and what I'm doing to improve myself, I'm being more assertive and speaking my mind more. If I have a problem or issue with something I'm speaking up now and not just letting it slide. I'm communicating better with RTBP, when he is actually talking to me that is, and when he is feeling good it feels as if we're more on the same page then ever before. I'm also working on my lazy streak I've had since I was a little. I can admit I have been slacking when it comes to cleaning at home and I've been making a conscious effort to keep the house clean and take some of the load off RTBP. I've been cooking more meals for us on the weekends as well. I also want to reconnect with my faith and start going to church again but I don't know how that will work out since RTBP isn't religious and wouldn't want to go. I still go to IC twice a week in addition to MC, and I keep my eyes and ears open for anything to help with our M and R.

My goal is to become a better person and wife. To show RTBP how sorry I am and how much I love him. That I can be trusted again and that one day he may lower his guard again and let me back in all the way. That he understands that I would NEVER do anything like this again. That I would literally rather die first than hurt him like this again. That I am worthy of the second chance he is giving me and I'll be the best wife and eventual mother I can be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

I have still managed not to bring up or discuss the issues with DS/GF that were plaguing us for weeks. I'm going to do my best to lock them in a box and bury them until we can have a therapist help us sort them out. 

She brought up today how living alone has helped her to see that I was not always the cause of her unhappiness, our fights, etc. That her issues played a part, too. I was waiting to hear this for a decade. Wasn't sure it would ever happen, but I'm very glad it did. That became a deep hurt for me over the years, her thinking it was all me. I cannot even begin to express it. Not everything was my fault for being bad or something I did wrong - that is a huge relief.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

SP, with every post I see progress. But the fact that DS is doing a lot of self reflection is very big. Keep moving forward. Baby steps is still progress.


----------



## CantSitStill

SP you have been so very patient. It's nice that you two are getting somewhere. It may not be at a fast pace hut you'll get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

CantSitStill said:


> SP you have been so very patient. It's nice that you two are getting somewhere. It may not be at a fast pace hut you'll get there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you.  We take two steps forward and sometimes one backward, but I think we are making progress overall. I'm working very hard on my patience, which I struggle with when it comes to things that cause me distress. 

I'm so tired. I've been horrible at taking care of myself lately. Have to get a handle on that.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> SP, with every post I see progress. But the fact that DS is doing a lot of self reflection is very big. Keep moving forward. Baby steps is still progress.


Thank you, that means a lot to me. You guys have no idea how much you help me. I'm grateful for all the advice, support, and caring I've received from not only you, but others on this thread.

DS is stubborn, just like me.  But I know most of the time that she must definitely love me, even if some days I can't see it. She is trying, even if her ways don't make sense to me sometimes. I have such a hard time with "faith" over fear.


----------



## CantSitStill

You are a worrier just like me SP. Sucks to be us. Wish I could control it, I really do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Offering everyone here the same toast Matt and I shared last year...

"Here's to better times ahead."

Happy New Year
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Happy New Year all.
I know this year will be better for all of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hartbrok

My year of reconciliation, forgiveness, and giving everything I could to try and make my WS understand how important she was to me, ended with a day after Christmas breakup.

Of course this was after I helped her through some really hard financial times regarding her children, to the tune of many thousands of dollars.


----------



## soulpotato

Okay, I am going to start early. Dear Santa, please deliver passion this year...and I'm not talking just a one-hit wonder. PLEASE.


----------



## jupiter13

sp too funny does santa take early requests?


----------



## soulpotato

jupiter13 said:


> sp too funny does santa take early requests?


Damn, but I sure hope so, Jupiter!!


----------



## soulpotato

joe kidd said:


> It's amazing how little things help.
> She got a new phone last year. Big deal huh?
> Was to me. Hated seeing her on that damn Blackberry, every time she was on it I would cringe.
> It wasn't the same phone she was using during the A ( that one met a wall and didn't survive) but it was just like it.


Yes, sometimes it's the smaller things that make the largest difference to a person. One person might not understand, but to the person to whom it matters, it's huge.


----------



## jupiter13

I know I trigger to cell phone rings. 
WH changed his but sometimes I will be in a store 
and someone phone goes off. ::slap:

We got new phones also. I wish I could say we were replacing the old ones for A reasons but the sad truth is we needed bigger screens and I still have to use my glasses. 

I got another piece of jewelery Blk hills gold as a hummingbird. This told me he was thinking about me since I am hooked on hummingbirds. It was the most thoughtful gift I could have ever received. Haven't taken it except to shower.


----------



## EI

B1 is complaining that we haven't "consummated" 2014 yet!  I think he protests too much!  Especially since we were supposed to abstain for 28 days after my surgery and we only waited 12 days...... Was that TMI?


----------



## soulpotato

EI said:


> B1 is complaining that we haven't "consummated" 2014 yet!  I think he protests too much!  Especially since we were supposed to abstain for 28 days after my surgery and we only waited 12 days...... Was that TMI?


Lol, you guys are going to make me cry! It was nearly two months without this last time. Not even a real kiss between!! Arghhh. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Hope everyone had a wonderful New Year's! Had a ton of fun with RTBP and my siblings w/ their partners. Open bar + sexy dancing with RTBP = great night! 

This morning wasn't all that great though. I did better than RTBP though he didn't get up until 2 pm! Honestly this vacation has went a lot better than I thought it would. Hopefully it will last once we go back home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Lol, you guys are going to make me cry! It was nearly two months without this last time. Not even a real kiss between!! Arghhh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you got a real kiss at midnight. I took mine! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

DS got a bonus at work, and right after she told me, she said, "I'm going to take you to that theme park you've been wanting to go to." Not sure when, but it sounds like near future, and I'm excited! It was originally what I'd said I wanted for my birthday, but then things happened and I thought it was off the table or that she'd forgotten. I'm touched that it was still in her mind. 

Yep, just like a kid! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

forever grateful said:


> (yoda voice) no. Try not. Do or do not. There is no try.
> 
> hope the bears win!
> _posted via mobile device_


neeeerrrd!!!!!


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> I hope you got a real kiss at midnight. *I took mine!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah and you ended up paying for it later too...


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Yeah and you ended up paying for it later too...


Well if I have to pay like THAT again me jumping you might become a regular thing babe. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manticore

Refuse to be played said:


> neeeerrrd!!!!!


LOL, is it bad if a understand the reference?


----------



## Refuse to be played

manticore said:


> LOL, is it bad if a understand the reference?


Nice! No it just means you spend a lot of time on the internet. Apparently so do me and FG since she understood it too.


----------



## jupiter13

Hey all! the New Year is up and running. I am not making any New Year resolutions but I have been reflecting on what I did wrong. We are 2yrs 5 months from D Day. I am still struggling everyday with tears. Cleaning the house is a trigger, working in my garden is a trigger, even Xmas this year was triggering me. I have looked back over my whole marriage and I know what I did wrong.
1. I trusted, believed and respected my husband.
2. I opened my heart and shared my fears, short comings, and insecurities.
3. I got the help I needed to become a better person, to be a good wife in our marriage without bringing old sabotaging behaviors into our marriage.
4. I looked the other way and made excuses for his bad behaviors accepted his apologies and promises to not do it again.
5. I forgave him when he hurt me believing he was being driven by the drugs and his own insecurities.
6. I put up walls to protect myself and the hurt I truly felt.
7. I got sick. Then believed getting well would be the path to really having a great relationship on both feet with his encouragement.
8. Of all the things I did wrong the main thing was getting married in the first place to another person who was as damaged as me. 

He is all this great husband some days but I do not trust him. I just hate it when we are doing something and he'll up and ask me "don't you trust Me?" WTF? He knows the answer.


----------



## EI

jupiter13 said:


> Hey all! the New Year is up and running. I am not making any New Year resolutions but I have been reflecting on what I did wrong. We are 2yrs 5 months from D Day. I am still struggling everyday with tears. Cleaning the house is a trigger, working in my garden is a trigger, even Xmas this year was triggering me. I have looked back over my whole marriage and I know what I did wrong.
> 1. I trusted, believed and respected my husband.
> 2. I opened my heart and shared my fears, short comings, and insecurities.
> 3. I got the help I needed to become a better person, to be a good wife in our marriage without bringing old sabotaging behaviors into our marriage.
> 4. I looked the other way and made excuses for his bad behaviors accepted his apologies and promises to not do it again.
> 5. I forgave him when he hurt me believing he was being driven by the drugs and his own insecurities.
> 6. I put up walls to protect myself and the hurt I truly felt.
> 7. I got sick. Then believed getting well would be the path to really having a great relationship on both feet with his encouragement.
> 8. Of all the things I did wrong the main thing was getting married in the first place to another person who was as damaged as me.
> 
> He is all this great husband some days but I do not trust him. I just hate it when we are doing something and he'll up and ask me "don't you trust Me?" WTF? He knows the answer.


Jupiter, at this this point, have you asked yourself why you are staying? You may need to move on without your husband in order to heal. It doesn't appear that you and he have made any progress towards improving the dynamic of your relationship. If this is as good as it is ever going to be...... is it enough? If not, then it might be time to start planning a different future. You need to heal and it doesn't appear that you are. I hope that 2014 brings some peace and healing into your life.


----------



## Refuse to be played

jupiter13 said:


> Hey all! the New Year is up and running. I am not making any New Year resolutions but I have been reflecting on what I did wrong. We are 2yrs 5 months from D Day. I am still struggling everyday with tears. Cleaning the house is a trigger, working in my garden is a trigger, even Xmas this year was triggering me. I have looked back over my whole marriage and I know what I did wrong.
> 1. I trusted, believed and respected my husband.
> 2. I opened my heart and shared my fears, short comings, and insecurities.
> 3. I got the help I needed to become a better person, to be a good wife in our marriage without bringing old sabotaging behaviors into our marriage.
> 4. I looked the other way and made excuses for his bad behaviors accepted his apologies and promises to not do it again.
> 5. I forgave him when he hurt me believing he was being driven by the drugs and his own insecurities.
> 6. I put up walls to protect myself and the hurt I truly felt.
> 7. I got sick. Then believed getting well would be the path to really having a great relationship on both feet with his encouragement.
> 8. Of all the things I did wrong the main thing was getting married in the first place to another person who was as damaged as me.
> 
> He is all this great husband some days but I do not trust him. I just hate it when we are doing something and he'll up and ask me "don't you trust Me?" WTF? He knows the answer.


EI is right, at this point it's might be time to consider that you just won't heal staying with your WH. You gave it close to 2 1/2 years, not a damn person can say you didn't give it your all if you do decide to make a change.


----------



## EI

One more sleep, one more wake up, then B1 and I will be helping our very "special son" move into his new home tomorrow. Some of you might remember this month, last year, when B1 and I sat in the hospital waiting room, for 9 hours, while Jo-Jo had surgery to place 4 titanium rods into his back to help improve his scoliosis. We had also just received notice, in the mail, that his application had been approved for an SCL waiver which will assist him with living in the community with supports. Tomorrow is the big day. It's incredibly bittersweet.  / 


As I type, our 2 y/o grandson is sitting on my lap, watching Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, and "forcing" kisses on me with his stuffed Pluto.  His mommy, our daughter, just went back to work, recently, after enjoying a 2 year maternity leave. This means that I am now spending a couple of days a week babysitting. It's a dreadful chore, but someone has to do it.  Our, fat and happy, Shorkie (Shih-Tzu/Yorkie mix,) Teddy, is snoring on the couch beside me.  Our 18 y/o son just left for work. Our 23 y/o son, who now lives in his own apartment, called us, on Saturday, to let us know that he is buying a ring and is planning to propose to his long-time girlfriend (whom we absolutely adore) in the next couple of months. And, B1 didn't complain a bit when he had to get up an hour early this morning and go out in this 0 degree weather to take gas to our 21 y/o son, who was "stranded," about 3 miles from home. As he said, when he later texted me from work, *"I am at work, safe and warm. Be easy on J^#%, this morning, he was freezing out there and he was very thankful and appreciative. I'm in a great mood this morning, happy, and feeling blessed." * He doesn't sound terribly miserable, does he??? 

So, I just thought I'd share a snapshot, of a random day, in the life of our reconciliation. Reconciliation, day 590. 

Not too bad, right???  Oh boy, I'm a little too emoticon "happy," aren't I? 

*Edited to add an emoticon for RTBP! I always say that it's the little things in life that make people happy! *


----------



## Refuse to be played

19 emoticons...I'd say. On the other hand, how about going back and add one more for an even 20?


----------



## EI

Refuse to be played said:


> 19 emoticons...I'd say. On the other hand, how about going back and add one more for an even 20?


Done! 

Of course, when I went back to edit my post to add another emoticon, I realized why it's important that I always take the time to proofread..... duh....  

THEN, I realized that no one pointed out my mistake.  Does this mean that you people don't even read my posts?  I think you guys must read my comments the same way that B1 "listens" to me every evening. :scratchhead: With one eye and one ear closed! That's probably why we are having such a successful reconciliation.... 

_Dang it!!!_


----------



## bfree

No, it's that we liked your post so much we didn't mind. It was so good that repeating it was justified.


----------



## happyman64

We like you too much, not true. It was nice to read 3 times in a row how happy you are and your family is moving forward.

You have great kids EI.

Many of us are listening.  Even from work. 

HM


----------



## Refuse to be played

EI said:


> Done!
> 
> Of course, when I went back to edit my post to add another emoticon, I realized why it's important that I always take the time to proofread..... duh....
> 
> THEN, I realized that no one pointed out my mistake.  Does this mean that you people don't even read my posts?  I think you guys must read my comments the same way that B1 "listens" to me every evening. :scratchhead: With one eye and one ear closed! That's probably why we are having such a successful reconciliation....
> 
> _Dang it!!!_


I read it, nothing wrong with hearing good news multiple times. And plus I just assumed you were going for a TAM record for most emoticons in one post.

I think you've won by the way. Congrats! :toast:


----------



## russell28

EI said:


> Done!
> 
> Of course, when I went back to edit my post to add another emoticon, I realized why it's important that I always take the time to proofread..... duh....
> 
> THEN, I realized that no one pointed out my mistake.  Does this mean that you people don't even read my posts?  I think you guys must read my comments the same way that B1 "listens" to me every evening. :scratchhead: With one eye and one ear closed! That's probably why we are having such a successful reconciliation....
> 
> _Dang it!!!_


:sleeping:


----------



## calvin

What post EI????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

russell28 said:


> :sleeping:





calvin said:


> What post EI????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hardy-Har-Har, Jerks!  LOL


----------



## calvin

I figured it was an accident,posted three times.
Glad to hear the good news EI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Lovely update E1.
Great news for JoJo. Wow was all that a year ago? It's gone so fast.
Can I say it? I'm jealous. I wish our R had gone like yours. You are very blessed
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> One more sleep, one more wake up, then B1 and I will be helping our very "special son" move into his new home tomorrow. Some of you might remember this month, last year, when B1 and I sat in the hospital waiting room, for 9 hours, while Jo-Jo had surgery to place 4 titanium rods into his back to help improve his scoliosis. We had also just received notice, in the mail, that his application had been approved for an SCL waiver which will assist him with living in the community with supports. Tomorrow is the big day. It's incredibly bittersweet.  /
> 
> 
> As I type, our 2 y/o grandson is sitting on my lap, watching Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, and "forcing" kisses on me with his stuffed Pluto.  His mommy, our daughter, just went back to work, recently, after enjoying a 2 year maternity leave. This means that I am now spending a couple of days a week babysitting. It's a dreadful chore, but someone has to do it.  Our, fat and happy, Shorkie (Shih-Tzu/Yorkie mix,) Teddy, is snoring on the couch beside me.  Our 18 y/o son just left for work. Our 23 y/o son, who now lives in his own apartment, called us, on Saturday, to let us know that he is buying a ring and is planning to propose to his long-time girlfriend (whom we absolutely adore) in the next couple of months. And, B1 didn't complain a bit when he had to get up an hour early this morning and go out in this 0 degree weather to take gas to our 21 y/o son, who was "stranded," about 3 miles from home. As he said, when he later texted me from work, *"I am at work, safe and warm. Be easy on J^#%, this morning, he was freezing out there and he was very thankful and appreciative. I'm in a great mood this morning, happy, and feeling blessed." * He doesn't sound terribly miserable, does he???
> 
> So, I just thought I'd share a snapshot, of a random day, in the life of our reconciliation. Reconciliation, day 590.
> 
> Not too bad, right???  Oh boy, I'm a little too emoticon "happy," aren't I?
> 
> *Edited to add an emoticon for RTBP! I always say that it's the little things in life that make people happy! *


591 days ago none of this was possible. Despite how you got here, you are in a much better place.


----------



## jupiter13

FP, E1 your right however I know why I stay for so many reasons but bfree pointed out something the other day about the 5 love languages so I have been reexamining that part too. I also have to realize that my past is getting in my way it's like a great big hurdle to get over, looking so big from down here. That is not his responsibility even if I had thought I worked it out once before. I guess not or did this just reenforce it so that it did come back? I don't know but I will stay and keep trying one day he will get it or not I will except any degree of happiness at this point then one day I may wake up and walk out the door but I will know when the time comes to do so. This is not my first rodeo but my first time to care. I thank you for your honest observations they are like reality checks for me and when your alone any check is better than remaining in your own head. God bless and thank you


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



jupiter13 said:


> FP, E1 your right however I know why I stay for so many reasons but bfree pointed out something the other day about the 5 love languages so I have been reexamining that part too. I also have to realize that my past is getting in my way it's like a great big hurdle to get over, looking so big from down here. That is not his responsibility even if I had thought I worked it out once before. I guess not or did this just reenforce it so that it did come back? I don't know but I will stay and keep trying one day he will get it or not I will except any degree of happiness at this point then one day I may wake up and walk out the door but I will know when the time comes to do so. This is not my first rodeo but my first time to care. I thank you for your honest observations they are like reality checks for me and when your alone any check is better than remaining in your own head. God bless and thank you


It's good that you are looking for ways to grow Jupiter. Just remember that it takes two. If you have done all you can or all you are reasonably able to do and he doesn't continue to move closer to you as well reconciliation won't be successful. We all praise EI and B1 for their remarkable progress but it took BOTH of them working together to get where they are. Sometimes you need to be able to walk away before your partner accepts the reality that has been staring them in the face. If your husband believes everything is great he may be in denial or you may need to impress upon him your view of the situation. You need to both be on the same page or at least both be reading from the same book.


----------



## calvin

Jup,I agree with everything bfree said,I pray your husband sees the light and
starts putting a serious effort into you both.
I hope things start getting better with you both very soon,its past time for him to
step it up.
Take care today everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

I quit


----------



## jupiter13

sh~it hit the fan and well lets see where the damage falls he can have it his way poor miss understood soul he can't do it. no clue and no guts excuse me no balls either he claims he is a bad person. Wow my family calls me the devils child so lets see how far this will go. I just don't care any more


----------



## jupiter13

In the mist of turmoil would you believe a young girl my daughters age has committed suicide, another girl who calls mom we have been talking now about her getting out of her living situation has passed as she suffered at the hands of another. both of these in two days of each other. This is what life keeps throwing in front of me and we end up putting our problems on back burner. how can i continue to get over anything when I have constant loss? I can't help but think I am missing something here.


----------



## EI

jupiter13 said:


> In the mist of turmoil would you believe a young girl my daughters age has committed suicide, another girl who calls mom we have been talking now about her getting out of her living situation has passed as she suffered at the hands of another. both of these in two days of each other. This is what life keeps throwing in front of me and we end up putting our problems on back burner. how can i continue to get over anything when I have constant loss? I can't help but think I am missing something here.



I wish that I could find some words to comfort you. I'm at such a loss to find them. I'm just so very sorry, Jupiter. Life shouldn't be so hard. I hope that in the midst of all of this pain, chaos and uncertainty that you will soon find some much needed peace and comfort. (((Hugs)))


----------



## Refuse to be played

I'm sorry jupiter...


----------



## CantSitStill

Prayers please?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

CantSitStill said:


> Prayers please?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Will do.


----------



## bfree

Always


----------



## CantSitStill

Thank you, getting a lite bettr here but he had a nighmare about me and scumbad
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Found DS a psychiatrist. Hoping they'll be good. Appointment isn't until later in February. (This is also for the possible bipolar/cyclothymia.) Still looking for a likely candidate for me and us as a couple. 

Work has gotten soooo bad/stressful. I keep being asked to take on more and more (to compensate for others) and it's beyond overwhelming. But I'm the reliable and competent one. Ha!!!


----------



## calmwinds

I turned a corner. We have been in R for quite some time now. He's been incredibly remorseful and doing everything he should. I had continued to feel broken, anxious, and unsure even after a year and a half, probably because he TT'd and it took him three months to completely shed himself of her due to her frequent suicide threats, but he's been an angel since stepping out of the fog, although he can't seem to quite forgive himself for what he did.

We don't often talk about "her", but recently we were having an in-depth conversation about our R and how much we've grown, and all it took was three little words. No. Not "I love you", he reminds me of that often and in every way he can. He said he had found out a lot about her recently, and that I was right. I asked what he meant by that, and to my astonishment he said, 

"She's a wh0re"

Wow. Hearing those three words come out of his mouth flipped my world right-side-up. In the past he hadn't spoken of her negatively, and only spoke of her in answer to questions. Then a couple days later we were talking again and he referred to her as "that b1tch". Again, wow. 

I know it doesn't seem like much. But as hard as he's been working it has been I who have been resisting and not allowing him in. He tells everyone how strong I am (whether I'm around or not) and that he put me through hell and I came out smoking but still standing. I hope I can keep this feeling. I hope I can start to let go. He's trying so hard. 

Amazing how three little words can change how you feel.


----------



## joe kidd

I had always equated my worth as a husband with my capacity as an earner/ provider. You know, with what I could could give her. 

Always thought that was enough. I work, I buy you things, what more can I do? 

Pidge said something the other day that never occurred to me. 
Never thought that was how she felt. She told me she would give up all of it... jewelry..car...material crap just to be happy. 

Here I was thinking that's what I was doing with all that. 

Never too old to learn.


----------



## StarGazer101

calmwinds said:


> I turned a corner. We have been in R for quite some time now. He's been incredibly remorseful and doing everything he should. I had continued to feel broken, anxious, and unsure even after a year and a half, probably because he TT'd and it took him three months to completely shed himself of her due to her frequent suicide threats, but he's been an angel since stepping out of the fog, although he can't seem to quite forgive himself for what he did.
> 
> We don't often talk about "her", but recently we were having an in-depth conversation about our R and how much we've grown, and all it took was three little words. No. Not "I love you", he reminds me of that often and in every way he can. He said he had found out a lot about her recently, and that I was right. I asked what he meant by that, and to my astonishment he said,
> 
> "She's a wh0re"
> 
> Wow. Hearing those three words come out of his mouth flipped my world right-side-up. *In the past he hadn't spoken of her negatively, and only spoke of her in answer to questions*. Then a couple days later we were talking again and he referred to her as "that b1tch". Again, wow.
> 
> I know it doesn't seem like much. But as hard as he's been working it has been I who have been resisting and not allowing him in. He tells everyone how strong I am (whether I'm around or not) and that he put me through hell and I came out smoking but still standing. I hope I can keep this feeling. I hope I can start to let go. He's trying so hard.
> 
> *Amazing how three little words can change how you feel*.


I know _exactly_ what you mean, I'm happy for you, I think it must feel like a weight has been lifted and there's a little bit more sunshine on the horizon 'cause you no longer feel so much like Plan B 

Me, I live in hope.


----------



## standinginthegap

EI said:


> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> P.S. I love you, B1 <3


Best definition of we reconciliation I've ever heard, I would also agree seeking for that myself now


----------



## standinginthegap

CantSitStill said:


> I do not believe it's all unicorns..no the aftermath is hell to heal. I do not beieve an affair can make a marriage better or save a marriage..no way! But I believe I have learned so much sionce the affair. I have learned how much my husband loves me after I betrayed him. I have learned to never take him for granted, i have learned to never run away from any problems we have. I have learned to always put him first, to appreciate him and we both learned to do what it takes to make the other happy.. I am very much more aware now. We have boundries. Sadly it should not take an affair to have learned all of this and I regret what I did very very much. I need to stop learning things the hard way. I did a terrible thing but that does NOT mean I will do it again.. Some people don't ever learn and continue the path of destruction but some people actually rehabilitate and turn into a better person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for posting reading this and me currently seeking R and my hubby isn't. But reading this know you were the one who stepped out of your marriage, it gives me hope that maybe my spouse will feel the same way when he realizes the truth


----------



## CantSitStill

Hope so. It takes a lot of looking at yourself and changing what needs to be changed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

joe kidd said:


> I had always equated my worth as a husband with my capacity as an earner/ provider. You know, with what I could could give her.
> 
> Always thought that was enough. I work, I buy you things, what more can I do?
> 
> Pidge said something the other day that never occurred to me.
> Never thought that was how she felt. She told me she would give up all of it... jewelry..car...material crap just to be happy.
> 
> Here I was thinking that's what I was doing with all that.
> 
> Never too old to learn.


Joe, is it possible that Pidge only liked all the material stuff that she had, because *YOU* gave it to her? :scratchhead:

It was a physical manifestation of your love for her? A portable reminder that she could take with her?


----------



## jupiter13

Been really busy down sizing everything around here. Packing stuff away repairing what can be repaired and getting my things in order. Then out of the blue WH sent me this in an email along with a bunch of other stuff. 

"I'm more interested in protecting this foundation* and saving this marriage for the both of us, that is whats most important."* 

I don't know what to think now. He has been doing all kinds of stuff out of character for him. Somehow it feels like a little too late but maybe it took all this time to get wrapped around what he needed to do. He has been actually reading stuff without asking. Yet I can hear it in his voice that he is also seeking recognition for all these actions he is doing sort of needs a pat on the back for doing what should have been doing all along. Since I am having to redo all my past abuse though this PTSD crap I have shared with him some parts of it. I had never thought he would need to know or want to know, it was my past, I had worked through it and moved on or so I thought. All this stress and trauma has brought it all up and the bottle is my only coping tool at the moment. I refuse pills and drugs. I am still crying every night during the day when ever I need too. I have informed him I can no longer live in this house everything about it is a trigger and he got it. I don't know when these changes will take place not for months I would think as there is so much up in the air. I just don't have the energy anymore. He brought up a relationship contract and told him no way. It's just a piece of paper and he already had a contract he ignored so what good is another one. He wrote his first marriage vows and then he rewrote them again when he stepped out and those are the new rules in our relationship. Basically if he feels rejected lonely and horny he can go F!#k who ever he wants I don't care but remember the same rules apply to me. SO if I am feeling those feelings even if imagined I can act of them too. He didn't like that but that is what i am giving him to work with so maybe that is why he is bending all sorts of ways to please me. I don't know anymore and I am tired. Thought I would share I think i should be happy with his words and actions but I don't know how I really feel about anything right now. Thanks for listening. Bless you all.


----------



## russell28

jupiter13 said:


> Been really busy down sizing everything around here. Packing stuff away repairing what can be repaired and getting my things in order. Then out of the blue WH sent me this in an email along with a bunch of other stuff.
> 
> "I'm more interested in protecting this foundation* and saving this marriage for the both of us, that is whats most important."*
> 
> I don't know what to think now. He has been doing all kinds of stuff out of character for him. Somehow it feels like a little too late but maybe it took all this time to get wrapped around what he needed to do. He has been actually reading stuff without asking. Yet I can hear it in his voice that he is also seeking recognition for all these actions he is doing sort of needs a pat on the back for doing what should have been doing all along. Since I am having to redo all my past abuse though this PTSD crap I have shared with him some parts of it. I had never thought he would need to know or want to know, it was my past, I had worked through it and moved on or so I thought. All this stress and trauma has brought it all up and the bottle is my only coping tool at the moment. I refuse pills and drugs. I am still crying every night during the day when ever I need too. I have informed him I can no longer live in this house everything about it is a trigger and he got it. I don't know when these changes will take place not for months I would think as there is so much up in the air. I just don't have the energy anymore. He brought up a relationship contract and told him no way. It's just a piece of paper and he already had a contract he ignored so what good is another one. He wrote his first marriage vows and then he rewrote them again when he stepped out and those are the new rules in our relationship. Basically if he feels rejected lonely and horny he can go F!#k who ever he wants I don't care but remember the same rules apply to me. SO if I am feeling those feelings even if imagined I can act of them too. He didn't like that but that is what i am giving him to work with so maybe that is why he is bending all sorts of ways to please me. I don't know anymore and I am tired. Thought I would share I think i should be happy with his words and actions but I don't know how I really feel about anything right now. Thanks for listening. Bless you all.



A relationship contract huh? Interesting concept, perhaps you could each get rings to wear to remind you of that contract?


----------



## jupiter13

thanks russell28 you caught that relationship contract huh first good laugh I have had in days.


----------



## joe kidd

MattMatt said:


> Joe, is it possible that Pidge only liked all the material stuff that she had, because *YOU* gave it to her? :scratchhead:
> 
> It was a physical manifestation of your love for her? A portable reminder that she could take with her?


Really don't think she cared either way about that stuff. Now that I look back it was really more for me I think. Her 1st marriage was not one of comfort. She worked and went to school while he sat at home jobless and played video games . She had heard all the "I'm going to take care of you" crap before. 
It was my way of showing that I don't say what I don't mean. 

When we got together I told her we would buy a house, and we did. Told her I would get a good job, and I did. Told her I would give her everything he couldn't and wouldn't.

Don't get me wrong, she contributes quite a bit. She wants to go back to school because she feels that it's unfair to me to carry 85% of the financial burden. 

That never bothered me. I was raised to believe that is what a man does. It was the emotional part that never came easy. I'm cold like my mother.

So here I am today learning to navigate the emotional minefield. I have no map and it pisses me off! LOL

Being demonstrative is new to me and I'm sorry to say I'm not very good at it. Like with everything else practice is the key.


----------



## CantSitStill

So the thread is back..disappeared for a bit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Joe, sounds like both of you have different love languages. You give gifts when what she needs is the affection. Hard for you to do probably but worth a try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TBT

It's back!:smthumbup:


----------



## bfree

I'm getting my post in there before it disappears again.


----------



## B1

Whoa.. I sure didn't see this coming. The R thread is alive again. Thank you TBT for starting that other thread and for everyone who pm'd the mods, and fought for this thread. I just knew it was gone forever. I still think something was fishy about it all. Anyway, I am so glad it's back.


----------



## 3putt

TBT said:


> It's back!:smthumbup:


Just saw that Bullwinkle's thread is back as well.


----------



## EI

TBT, thank you so much for making a temporary shelter for the Reconcilers over in "Reconciliation?" But, to quote Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, "There's no place like home."  I'm so happy the R thread is back! 

I'll post more later......... who knew?  Right now, B1 and I are off to talk to the owner/developer of our potential new real home..... Our nest is getting smaller, 3 kids out, 2 to go.... So much has been going on in life. We'll post an update later today.

I hope everyone else will, too. We need to have a virtual welcome back party on the R thread. It's Open House. Everyone drop by and visit for a while.


----------



## TBT

EI and B1,you're welcome.I'm keeping my fingers crossed for permanency.


----------



## TBT

Just a suggestion regarding longer posts.You may want to copy and paste for the time being or risk losing your post.At least until the thread has a day or two of stability.


----------



## pidge70




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## soulpotato

EI, you'd better not be going anywhere!


----------



## illwill

Yeah EI this place needs you and this thread. And contnue to post in other threads too. There are not many betrayed spouses here.


----------



## EI

REALLY! 

I decided that the disappearing R thread was a sign that it was time for me to pack up and move on. I deleted my original thread, my pictures, my album, my friends and contact list, deleted all my thread subscriptions, my pm's, and checked out of TAMland. Then, I got an email notification that I had two pm's. (I forgot to disable that feature.) When I logged on to read my pm's, I see that the R thread is back! :slap:


----------



## illwill

So, you are staying?


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## EI

illwill said:


> So, you are staying?


Well, this is embarrassing!  But, if the R thread is still here and my TAM "friends" will be my "friends," again, I might as well stick around.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> Well, this is embarrassing!  But, if the R thread is still here and my TAM "friends" will be my "friends," again, I might as well stick around.


Mixed feelings. You are such a big part of TAM but on a personal level, I would like for you to no longer need to be here.

You are someone I have come to admire and respect. Both you and B1


----------



## Mr Blunt

*EI’s FIRST post (8-6-12) on the Reconciliation thread is reprinted below:*



> *By EI*
> To me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> P.S. I love you, B1 <3




I am amazed that EI had such wisdom and was able to think straight in the beginning of her living hell! When the thread disappeared a thought came across my mind that someone took it to use it in a book or something. With over 11,000 posts the information in this thread is valuable.

Not only has B1 and EI produced this thread but their journey gives hope and that is so desperately needed with Infidelity. There are many others that have contributed to this thread that have been so very helpful as has been evidenced by posts stating that fact.

Infidelity is such a relationship killer and it cuts all the way to the bone. I do not think that there is any other act that can damage a relationship so much as infidelity. Yet here we see EI and B1 slaying the monster piece by piece. Yes I know they have had several set backs but if you read their posts from month to month or better yet year to year you will see that they are winning.

Jim said that he would like for EI to no longer need to be here. That was said with compassion. My guess is that EI will no longer need to be here sometime this year if she and B1 keep improving; in fact she may no longer need to be here now. . EI may stick around longer even if she no longer needs to be here because she wants to help others as she has been doing for 18 months. That is the kind of woman I think EI is.

Although I can not say enough good about EI, I have to mention that Mrs. John Adams has been a champ in her attitude and struggle in Reconciliation for DECADES!!!! To me that speaks volumes about a woman with real dedication and true remorse. IMO Mrs. John Adams is more valuable than some of the men and women that I know that have never committed infidelity. They never cheated but their attitude SUCKS!!!

Finally, I cannot leave out B1. What an amazing response to infidelity he has demonstrated. In addition, in the early months when he was so hurt and someone insulted the hell out of EI he came to her defense. He then opened up to us his own failures with brutal honesty so that the mockers could see that it was not all one sided and to get them off EI. B1 could not take others trying to drag EI through the mud. That takes real love!!!


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> Well, this is embarrassing!  But, if the R thread is still here and my TAM "friends" will be my "friends," again, I might as well stick around.


Well, aren't you ashamed of yourself. Abandoning your TAM friends to the wolves, like that. I think you need a good spanking, and B1 is just the man to do it..


----------



## bfree

Mr Blunt, I agree with everything you said. Especially about B1. I am in awe over his strength and resilience. Buying him a beer is just not enough. I'd have to buy him a Budweiser brewery to even approach the level of respect I have for him.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Yay!! It's back
Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Brokenshadow

I've been away, so I'm surprised to hear the R thread went away for a bit. Been in R for about 8 months here and it's damn hard. This place needs a strong, positive thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Brokenshadow said:


> I've been away, so I'm surprised to hear the R thread went away for a bit. Been in R for about 8 months here and it's damn hard. This place needs a strong, positive thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Just past the two year mark.
Definitely getting much better.Eight months in is still hard.
Hang in there,as long as your spouse is doing what is needed you will both make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

GOOD!!!!!:smthumbup:


----------



## jupiter13

Glad to see everyone is back I thought I would pipe it and let you all know we are somewhat making it one day at a time. Tonight we lost another dog. We are consoling each other rather than going to separate corners. For me this is just another loss in a string of them since D Day I don't know how much more I can take before I break It's not about him anymore or the affair it's the loss of everything I care about marriage just is falling into a group of stuff without any real significance to it anymore. Sometimes I will start to blame him for bringing the black cloud down upon us but I know in reality that is not true. I am ready to move and he is too now. It is the only way we will make it. Everything has to change and be made new.


----------



## clipclop2

Sometimes I think pets leave us as a way of telling us we have to stand on our own two feet. My biggest pet losses were at pivotal times in my life.

Pet losses.

Argh.

The love of my life cat.


----------



## soulpotato

I'm so sorry, Jupiter.  Losing a pet is so devastating, especially on top of the already dark days you've been living through.


----------



## soulpotato

MoT, my partner said much the same thing this past weekend. She said it's just going to take time, and doesn't want to make me feel bad since she feels I can't do anything more to help right now. I encouraged her to talk about her feelings when it was on her mind.


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## Refuse to be played

Wait...what happened to this thread? It got deleted or something?


----------



## illwill

Refuse to be played said:


> Wait...what happened to this thread? It got deleted or something?


Briefly.


----------



## Refuse to be played

I just caught up. That sucks but at least its back.


----------



## soulpotato

RTBP, there you are! I almost sent FG a message today. Good to see you.


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> RTBP, there you are! I almost sent FG a message today. Good to see you.


Lol hey sp. Our MC suggested staying off for a while. Well mostly me but FG joined in as well.

I'm...ok I guess. How are things with you and your GF?


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> Lol hey sp. Our MC suggested staying off for a while. Well mostly me but FG joined in as well.
> 
> I'm...ok I guess. How are things with you and your GF?


Yeah, I can see why the MC recommended that. My own therapist tried to get me to stay away from TAM. Has the time away helped you two?

I miss you guys!! Eh, some days are ok, some days we're fighting. Actually, we've been fighting more often recently, but the last week has been calm.  I'm contacting therapists and MCs all over the place. GF is balking at the cost, but I'd give up grocery money to save our relationship. So I'm pushing us forward.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Yeah, I can see why the MC recommended that. My own therapist tried to get me to stay away from TAM. Has the time away helped you two?
> 
> I miss you guys!! Eh, some days are ok, some days we're fighting. Actually, we've been fighting more often recently, but the last week has been calm.  I'm contacting therapists and MCs all over the place. GF is balking at the cost, but I'd give up grocery money to save our relationship. So I'm pushing us forward.


 Good. Attitude Sp,keep it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> Yeah, I can see why the MC recommended that. My own therapist tried to get me to stay away from TAM. Has the time away helped you two?
> 
> I miss you guys!! Eh, some days are ok, some days we're fighting. Actually, we've been fighting more often recently, but the last week has been calm.  I'm contacting therapists and MCs all over the place. GF is balking at the cost, but I'd give up grocery money to save our relationship. So I'm pushing us forward.


I can't answer for her but it does help me usually. If I read something that kinda pisses me off I tend to let it effect my interactions with FG and I can admit to being a bit of a d!ck. So at the very least it makes her feel a bit better.

Hope you guys find a good therapist to help you cut down on the fighting and make the okay days better. Insurance won't cover it? I hope she's chipping in for the cost at least then. Either way I wouldn't mind living poor for a short period of time if it was worth it. I get you.


----------



## jupiter13

View attachment HOW_TO_HELP_11-06-10_FINAL_pdf-.zip


Attachment I hope I did this right 
"How to help spouse heal from your affair."
It is in zipped file to fit. Let me know if it worked or not this is my first time to do this.:rofl:


----------



## soulpotato

Thank you, Jupiter, perfect!


----------



## jupiter13

Thank you sp it feels good to be able to help someone else with something when I am feeling so lacking in my own abilities or understanding. If nothing else at least my hoarding tendencies paid off. :flowerkitty:


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> I can't answer for her but it does help me usually. If I read something that kinda pisses me off I tend to let it effect my interactions with FG and I can admit to being a bit of a d!ck. So at the very least it makes her feel a bit better.
> 
> Hope you guys find a good therapist to help you cut down on the fighting and make the okay days better. Insurance won't cover it? I hope she's chipping in for the cost at least then. Either way I wouldn't mind living poor for a short period of time if it was worth it. I get you.


It's hard not to be negatively affected by things you read here sometimes. 

Thanks, I really hope we do, too. Insurance doesn't seem to cover any of the therapists that specifically focus on couples (or even many good ICs). We're going to be splitting the cost of joint sessions. (Figured you'd understand!)


----------



## B1

Hello all,
Thought I would drop in for a brief moment and share what my life is like at 21 months since Dday. 

We can go weeks without discussing IT, then we can talk about IT a little for a couple days in a row. It's odd to me in a way, it seems far away most times but on occasion the A can still knock the wind out of me. I don't buckle like I use to, but it can still hurt pretty bad. EI is, as always, there for me with support, answers if I have questions, and at the ready to say sorry. Not that it's that necessary anymore, but I have learned hearing it does help. Hearing how she feels helps too. EI is very vocal about how disgusted she is with what she did, how it's a huge black cloud. She's clear on the fact there are no good memories, that it's ALL just bad, very bad. These things, overall, help me. They help me when I am in a battle with the past. When the bad creeps in, her words ring loud and clear. They help me fight the pain of the A when it creeps in, which isn't often anymore.

Overall though, things are good, life is happening and we are living it. We are moving forward. 

We have so much going on now, I always wondered some 20 months ago if there would ever be normalcy again, and the good news is, yes there is. Life is happening, a life without all the hurt, anger and pain is happening right now. I do want to be honest here though, every now and then, like I mentioned earlier, I can still get hit with a blow. Thoughts can creep in, the reality of the A can hit me. It can sting for a moment or two, it can even bring me to tears on the very rare occasion, but honestly that's rare anymore. I don't struggle with anger at all, it's just incredible hurt when it does hit.

EI is healing to, she has turned corners recently, she is finally beginning to forgive herself, she is beginning to believe,as I know, that she's not worthless and she is deserving of good things. I can easily separate the sin from the sinner here. EI did something horrible, it was bad. It does, in no way, mean she is horrible and bad. She isn't, she's a good person who simply broke, that's exactly how I see it. I also see, as you all know, what I did to break her. We are both so much more in tune with each other, well I am anyway, honestly EI was always pretty in tune with me, or tried to be. I am the one that's different, that's changed for the most part. EI just had to fall back in love with this new, changed man, and luckily, she did. Yes, I am lucky too, lucky for another chance, just as she is lucky for one.

I am looking forward to renewing our vows this coming June on our 30th anniversary. It will be a wonderful day, I can't wait to marry her again.


----------



## calvin

Excellent,B1.glad to hear you both are doing so much better.
Keep it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Hi B1.
Always glad to hear from you with positive news. 
I often have you guys in my thoughts, i won't forget to send good vibes on your 30th anniversary and vows renewal ceremony.

Lucky guy.


----------



## B1

soulpotato said:


> It's hard not to be negatively affected by things you read here sometimes.
> )


That's why I stay away most times. I learned that my healing process required me to distance myself from TAM. It had its place and did its magic but after a while I simply had to break away and walk on my own. That's just me though, we are all different.

Take care,


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Glad for the update, B1. I hope we will get there at some point in our future.

It has been almost 15 months for us. We are finding more equilibrium in day to day life, and in general Matt says he feels a sense of progress overall. But when the bad cycle comes around it is still so devastating to both of us. Matt wonders how long should he continue in his misery, when does one just say enough is enough. I keep looking for ways to help get him through those lows, and largely feel helpless. I know they are not as frequent, which is a sign of healing, but it's hard to remember in the moment.

We have two beautiful sons, and I know exactly how incredibly fortunate I am to be part of their daily lives. I try to take a step back from TAM, but I keep finding myself reading here, dwelling on the posts most vitriolic toward WS, and feeling a need to constantly reinforce what a terrible thing I have done, how undeserving I am of the blessings in my life, and the permanence of the scar I left over what could have been a beautiful, happy life. It's very self-defeating, but I haven't been able to break that process yet, I guess because I feel I earned it. As if, how dare I find joy in anything after I ensured my husband couldn't. 

We will keep working, a day at a time, an hour, a minute. I am so happy for those of you further on the journey, and still hope for a positive outcome for Matt and I. Sending good thoughts to everyone here and wishing you strength.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Glad for the update, B1. I hope we will get there at some point in our future.
> 
> It has been almost 15 months for us. We are finding more equilibrium in day to day life, and in general Matt says he feels a sense of progress overall. But when the bad cycle comes around it is still so devastating to both of us. Matt wonders how long should he continue in his misery, when does one just say enough is enough. I keep looking for ways to help get him through those lows, and largely feel helpless. I know they are not as frequent, which is a sign of healing, but it's hard to remember in the moment.
> 
> We have two beautiful sons, and I know exactly how incredibly fortunate I am to be part of their daily lives. I try to take a step back from TAM, but I keep finding myself reading here, dwelling on the posts most vitriolic toward WS, and feeling a need to constantly reinforce what a terrible thing I have done, how undeserving I am of the blessings in my life, and the permanence of the scar I left over what could have been a beautiful, happy life. It's very self-defeating, but I haven't been able to break that process yet, I guess because I feel I earned it. As if, how dare I find joy in anything after I ensured my husband couldn't.
> 
> We will keep working, a day at a time, an hour, a minute. I am so happy for those of you further on the journey, and still hope for a positive outcome for Matt and I. Sending good thoughts to everyone here and wishing you strength.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Finding joy with a life with Matt is a great thing. That is a big part of fixing things. If you are happy with life with him. Matt's decision to stay is reinforced.

Be positive. Be happy. It will help him more than you know.


----------



## calvin

A lot of positive stuff on here,I like that.
Me and CSS are doing pretty good and we keep improving,hell we are nuts about
eachother.
Triggers still happen but they are getting rare and don't last long.
Its nice to be happy again.
I sense a lot of good outcomes here.
Keep it up people.
Bless you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Glad for the update, B1. I hope we will get there at some point in our future.
> 
> It has been almost 15 months for us. We are finding more equilibrium in day to day life, and in general Matt says he feels a sense of progress overall. But when the bad cycle comes around it is still so devastating to both of us. Matt wonders how long should he continue in his misery, when does one just say enough is enough. I keep looking for ways to help get him through those lows, and largely feel helpless. I know they are not as frequent, which is a sign of healing, but it's hard to remember in the moment.
> 
> We have two beautiful sons, and I know exactly how incredibly fortunate I am to be part of their daily lives. I try to take a step back from TAM, but I keep finding myself reading here, dwelling on the posts most vitriolic toward WS, and feeling a need to constantly reinforce what a terrible thing I have done, how undeserving I am of the blessings in my life, and the permanence of the scar I left over what could have been a beautiful, happy life. It's very self-defeating, but I haven't been able to break that process yet, I guess because I feel I earned it. As if, how dare I find joy in anything after I ensured my husband couldn't.
> 
> We will keep working, a day at a time, an hour, a minute. I am so happy for those of you further on the journey, and still hope for a positive outcome for Matt and I. Sending good thoughts to everyone here and wishing you strength.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not all of us are vitriolic toward the WS. My advice on how to deal with the postings of those who are vitriolic is to recognize that every situation is different and the situations of those folks were so horrible as to totally warp their points of view.

Don't be sucked in. There are lots of things worse than an affair, many so horrible that I won't even list them here. That is not to excuse affairs, they are particularly difficult, especially for the BS.

But most of the affair problems in a marriage can be overcome though it takes work, the ability to withstand pain, and an understanding by each partner that the other is a human being with faults and limitations.

Hang in there and good luck!


----------



## calvin

I feel quite a few folks on here think I'm nuts or there is something wrong with me
especially when I have a remorseful wife like I do.
If it would have went beyond the kisses and hugs I don't think I could have entered R.
Hell if there was any french kissing I don't think I could have but I don't know,
I'll never know if I could have went into R if it went physical.Maybe,maybe not.
I struggled like hell over her A,that was bad enough.
What made it so hard was having the SOB contacting me for a year and a half rubbing it in.
Setting up fights only for him to run away a few times,the threats to come to my
house and rape my wife and a lot more.
I did some big damage to the POS,the last time I I took action on him seems to have
paid off,no calls or text from him in over two months.
So I feel my R is much different than others here,I have yet to see anyone with a POS
like mine taunt and stalk a BS like he has.
He has destroyed a few families without any care for the kids or anyone else who he took down.
I guess he thought I'd back down,very wrong of him,I'm a good man but I'm not someone
to fvck with.
I doubt he will ever try something like this again,he actually went to the cops for protection from me.
I didn't start it but I will end it.
Anyway....having a couple like B1 and EI has been and insiration to me and I'm sure others also.
This thread and the people here has been a God send.
CSS needs to forgive herself and I still need to control my triggers better but we are 
well on our way,no turning back for us,if I had one single doubt,I would not be with her.
People fvck up bad sometimes and many are worth that second chance.
I have no regrets...none.
If when I married her and I could see the future,I'd still do it.
Sorry about the rambling,just felt I needed to get that off my chest.
We are almost good,the future looks fine.
Thanks to everyone here for your help.
Peace people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CharlieParker

It's back but was on page 2. Bump.


----------



## Nostromo

Wanna start taking bets on how long before it goes back into Narnia?


----------



## calvin

Now ya see it! Poof,now ya don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Better get in a quick post before it goes into hiding again. Not sure what the heck is going on with this thread but I sure do love EI 

We have had a great day, saved over $100 on our cell phone bill, income tax checks came in, kids did what they were supposed too, well mostly, my new camera gear arrived, and EI made me real happy when I came home wink..wink.. a good day over all. 

She took my rewards money though and donated it to some dog shelter fund thingy. That was $35 I could have spent on new camera accessories. Oh well, she was so very happy to help an animal shelter and that makes me happy too.


----------



## Nostromo

Almost four whole hours since it was rediscovered and it's still here. This must be some kind of world record.:smthumbup:


----------



## EI

B1 said:


> Better get in a quick post before it goes into hiding again. Not sure what the heck is going on with this thread but I sure do love EI
> 
> We have had a great day, saved over $100 on our cell phone bill, income tax checks came in, kids did what they were supposed too, well mostly, my new camera gear arrived, and EI made me real happy when I came home wink..wink.. a good day over all.
> 
> She took my rewards money though and donated it to some dog shelter fund thingy. That was $35 I could have spent on new camera accessories. Oh well, she was so very happy to help an animal shelter and that makes me happy too.



I love you, too, Snoopy (y'all, don't tell anyone, but that's been my pet name for B1 since we were teenagers!)  But, for heaven's sake, no one, except me, can EVER call him that! 

It's been such an, unexpectedly, lovely day on this 633rd day of reconciliation. B1 just upgraded his camera gear. It was long overdue and something that he had put off doing for quite a while. He's such a photog that I thought for sure when his new camera came in that our hysterical bonding would be over.  Obviously, I saw that as a challenge.  The delivery came, today, while he was at work. When he got home he ate dinner and, immediately, started "playing" with his new toy. I had gotten quite used to him coming home from work, eating dinner, and "aggravating me for the next few hours." I'm not complaining. As you guys might recall, he didn't used to aggravate me often enough. So, I decided to see if I could distract him from his camera. 

He loves his camera...... but, he loves me even more!  Our life is still a challenge. We, often, find ourselves waiting for the 'other shoe to drop.' We have lots of hope, now. Even some 'cautious' optimism! We're starting to think that maybe, just maybe, this is real, we're healing, we're growing, we're in love, and this is gonna take! We're happy!

Now, all of you Reconcilers, likers, readers, and lurkers need to post. Drop some love on the "R" thread! Please.... and, thank you!  My kids gets annoyed when I say "Please, and thank you." They say it makes them feel like they have to do what I've asked them to do because I've already thanked them.


----------



## EI

Nostromo said:


> Almost four whole hours since it was rediscovered and it's still here. This must be some kind of world record.:smthumbup:


So, Nostromo, tell us about yourself.


----------



## sidney2718

EI said:


> I love you, too, Snoopy (y'all, don't tell anyone, but that's been my pet name for B1 since we were teenagers!)  But, for heaven's sake, no one, except me, can EVER call him that!
> 
> It's been such an, unexpectedly, lovely day on this 633rd day of reconciliation. B1 just upgraded his camera gear. It was long overdue and something that he had put off doing for quite a while. He's such a photog that I thought for sure when his new camera came in that our hysterical bonding would be over.  Obviously, I saw that as a challenge.  The delivery came, today, while he was at work. When he got home he ate dinner and, immediately, started "playing" with his new toy. I had gotten quite used to him coming home from work, eating dinner, and "aggravating me for the next few hours." I'm not complaining. As you guys might recall, he didn't used to aggravate me often enough. So, I decided to see if I could distract him from his camera.
> 
> He loves his camera...... but, he loves me even more!  Our life is still a challenge. We, often, find ourselves waiting for the 'other shoe to drop.' We have lots of hope, now. Even some 'cautious' optimism! We're starting to think that maybe, just maybe, this is real, we're healing, we're growing, we're in love, and this is gonna take! We're happy!
> 
> Now, all of you Reconcilers, likers, readers, and lurkers need to post. Drop some love on the "R" thread! Please.... and, thank you!  My kids gets annoyed when I say "Please, and thank you." They say it makes them feel like they have to do what I've asked them to do because I've already thanked them.


Glad to join in! Your thread and B1's thread were first major things I saw when I first joined TAM. At the start I was afraid it was a forum just for totally beating up WW. But those threads and people's reaction to them convinced me to stay and do what I could to avoid routine bashing of wandering spouses.

So here's to EI and B1! May their reconciliation totally succeed and may their marriage be a joy to them and their families forever!


----------



## Nostromo

EI said:


> So, Nostromo, tell us about yourself.


Well I stumbled on your and B1's thread before I signed up to TAM while searching for some info about infidelity, and read through most of it [that was an ordeal] and was inspired by the great advice and comfort so many of you on here have given to people in need. While I'm not in reconciliation myself, I do wish all of you the best, and will advise newcomers on TAM to check it out if their situation fits with the thread's goal, if that's fine with you guys.


----------



## soulpotato

LOL, back from the dead again (this thread, not me). I'm here. In therapy up to my eyeballs. This past Saturday for myself, Monday was MC, and then tomorrow with the MC for "background" on me personally! AHHH!!

DS/GF and I have been doing well with using our words lately (god, I'm scared to even say that in case I jinx things), so there hasn't been fighting recently.

I hope the R thread will be here to stay one of these days...


----------



## Rookie4

Pet names give me the cold robbies. Snoopy, schmoopie.


----------



## Rookie4

B1 said:


> Better get in a quick post before it goes into hiding again. Not sure what the heck is going on with this thread but I sure do love EI
> 
> We have had a great day, saved over $100 on our cell phone bill, income tax checks came in, kids did what they were supposed too, well mostly, my new camera gear arrived, and EI made me real happy when I came home wink..wink.. a good day over all.
> 
> She took my rewards money though and donated it to some dog shelter fund thingy. That was $35 I could have spent on new camera accessories. Oh well, she was so very happy to help an animal shelter and that makes me happy too.


Are you SURE you need that new camera stuff? I mean it's not like its a vintage 240Z or anything. You probably use it to take "Naturist" shots of you and EI, romping in the tall grass.


----------



## Refuse to be played

So would that make EI Woodstock?


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Pet names give me the cold robbies. Snoopy, schmoopie.


What? :scratchhead:



Rookie4 said:


> Are you SURE you need that new camera stuff? I mean it's not like its a vintage 240Z or anything. You probably use it to take "Naturist" shots of you and EI, romping in the tall grass.


"Naturist" shots of B1 and EI? Yes!  Tall grass? No 



Refuse to be played said:


> So would that make EI Woodstock?


Again, what? :scratchhead:


----------



## Refuse to be played

FG been in Minneapolis since Monday. She comes back home tomorrow. It's been a while since we did a update so I guess I should while I can.

The past month or two has been very trying. I got to the point where I had everything logistically planned out to separate but never pulled the trigger. Between the anniversary dates, OM messaging me, and some other non-A crap, I've been a bit of a d!ck to everyone especially FG. She's been taking it in stride and I've been working on letting up. 

V-day I had nothing planned, which was a first. I was just going Hangout at home after I ran some errands and finished at the gym. FG ended up surprising me getting some takeout from one of my favorite restaurants (on a part of town she doesn't like going) and got my favorite dessert Oreo cheesecake. So we ate and watch Netflix most of the night.

Best word to describe us at the moment is stable. I'd say our biggest problem right now is my resentment. Also the fact that if things played out the way she originally wanted she would have dealt with what she done on her own and I would have never know. I HATE being lied to or manipulated. I always have since I was a kid. And I resent the fact that she was willing to let me live with this big a## lie on my back for the rest of my life. 

On a positive note, my baby sister is pregnant. Her and her fiance are expecting their first. I'm kicking him in the face next time I see him.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> I love you, too, Snoopy (y'all, don't tell anyone, but that's been my pet name for B1 since we were teenagers!)  But, for heaven's sake, no one, except me, can EVER call him that!
> 
> It's been such an, unexpectedly, lovely day on this 633rd day of reconciliation. B1 just upgraded his camera gear. It was long overdue and something that he had put off doing for quite a while. He's such a photog that I thought for sure when his new camera came in that our hysterical bonding would be over.  Obviously, I saw that as a challenge.  The delivery came, today, while he was at work. When he got home he ate dinner and, immediately, started "playing" with his new toy. I had gotten quite used to him coming home from work, eating dinner, and "aggravating me for the next few hours." I'm not complaining. As you guys might recall, he didn't used to aggravate me often enough. So, I decided to see if I could distract him from his camera.
> 
> He loves his camera...... but, he loves me even more!  Our life is still a challenge. We, often, find ourselves waiting for the 'other shoe to drop.' We have lots of hope, now. Even some 'cautious' optimism! We're starting to think that maybe, just maybe, this is real, we're healing, we're growing, we're in love, and this is gonna take! We're happy!
> 
> Now, all of you Reconcilers, likers, readers, and lurkers need to post. Drop some love on the "R" thread! Please.... and, thank you!  My kids gets annoyed when I say "Please, and thank you." They say it makes them feel like they have to do what I've asked them to do because I've already thanked them.


Snoopy....heh....love it!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> LOL, back from the dead again (this thread, not me). I'm here. In therapy up to my eyeballs. This past Saturday for myself, Monday was MC, and then tomorrow with the MC for "background" on me personally! AHHH!!
> 
> DS/GF and I have been doing well with using our words lately (god, I'm scared to even say that in case I jinx things), so there hasn't been fighting recently.
> 
> I hope the R thread will be here to stay one of these days...


I've read your thread SP and you seem to have a good dialog going with the posters there so I didn't want to interrupt. But I'm still thinking about you and paying for you every day.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> So would that make EI Woodstock?


 EI's distractions...hmm...all I can say is


"hang on Snoopy, Snoopy hang on"


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> I've read your thread SP and you seem to have a good dialog going with the posters there so I didn't want to interrupt. But I'm still thinking about you and paying for you every day.


Interrupt? Not at all! I would love to hear from folks on the R thread. I'm glad to know some of you have been by.


----------



## soulpotato

RTBP, thanks for the update. I'm sorry for what you're going through right now.  

FG has been working on her conflict avoidance, right? 

Re: your sister- congrats!


----------



## margrace

to whoever brought this thread back from wherever it was, thank you!


----------



## bfree

bfree said:


> I've read your thread SP and you seem to have a good dialog going with the posters there so I didn't want to interrupt. But* I'm still thinking about you and paying for you every day*.


Heh, I'm paying for you....that's not right. Gotta watch that spellcheck.


----------



## Philat

Refuse to be played said:


> Also the fact that if things played out the way she originally wanted she would have dealt with what she done on her own and I would have never know.


That's a b!tch, isn't it? Knowing that she would have been OK with basically treating you like a fool to make things easier for herself. Been there...

Sorry to hear this, RTBP. It was my impression that things were going well for you two.


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Heh, *I'm paying for you.*...that's not right. Gotta watch that spellcheck.


bfree, I really don't think it's in good form to make a confession like that on TAM. Particularly, on a family oriented thread like this one! :rofl:


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> RTBP, thanks for the update. I'm sorry for what you're going through right now.
> 
> FG has been working on her conflict avoidance, right?
> 
> Re: your sister- congrats!


Thanks, I'm okay though. Yeah she's been working on it. I noticed she is a bit more assertive and speaks her mind more when dealing with friends, neighbors, people at work, etc. Still have to work on doing it with family though.

And thanks but my sister was suppose to finish school first. I blame him. So I'm gonna kick him in the face....


----------



## Refuse to be played

Philat said:


> That's a b!tch, isn't it? Knowing that she would have been OK with basically treating you like a fool to make things easier for herself. Been there...
> 
> Sorry to hear this, RTBP. It was my impression that things were going well for you two.


Eh, I came off a little bit whiny yesterday. Not as bad as I made it sound. It's a tough thing to swallow but I'll be alright one way or another.


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> bfree, I really don't think it's in good form to make a confession like that on TAM. Particularly, on a family oriented thread like this one! :rofl:


Ok Woodstock.


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> Thanks, I'm okay though. Yeah she's been working on it. *I noticed she is a bit more assertive and speaks her mind more when dealing with friends, neighbors, people at work, etc.* Still have to work on doing it with family though.
> 
> And thanks but my sister was suppose to finish school first. I blame him. So I'm gonna kick him in the face....


That is definitely going to help her keep strong boundaries. Will probably raise her self esteem as well. All good.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> And thanks but my sister was suppose to finish school first. I blame him. So I'm gonna kick him in the face....


He's just joking. I think. 

Anyways, I'm glad the R thread is back!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Actually, I am the person chiefly responsible for bringing back the Reconciliation thread. So you all owe your thanks to me ( and , of course, any gratuity you would care to make)


----------



## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> That is definitely going to help her keep strong boundaries. Will probably raise her self esteem as well. All good.


Thanks bfree. I do feel a bit more confident overall. The past month or so has been a bit rocky and I'm just know learning he had planned on moving out. That kind of freaked me out a bit but we sat down and talked about it. That's one thing I've gotten better at, voicing any with RTBP and discussing it through. I was dreading this time period so badly but we made it through and I'm hopeful we can get past this round patch and continue with our R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> bfree, I really don't think it's in good form to make a confession like that on TAM. Particularly, on a family oriented thread like this one! :rofl:


National Enquirer.....EI, Saint or golddigger, we have all the pictures!!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> Thanks bfree. I do feel a bit more confident overall. The past month or so has been a bit rocky and I'm just know learning he had planned on moving out. That kind of freaked me out a bit but we sat down and talked about it. That's one thing I've gotten better at, voicing any with RTBP and discussing it through. I was dreading this time period so badly but we made it through and I'm hopeful we can get past this round patch and continue with our R.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just remember that in this journey you will need to climb steps and you will come upon areas that you will need to traverse. The steps are constant and gradual. The hills and mountains are more difficult but with every one put behind you you can look back and see the progress and feel good about meeting and beating the challenge. Just imagine if someone told you years ago that you would have to run a marathon and there would be hurdles periodically placed in your path. You would have said no way. But you're doing it aren't you? And when you cross the finish line just think how good you'll both feel.


----------



## B1

Refuse to be played said:


> Best word to describe us at the moment is stable. I'd say our biggest problem right now is my resentment. Also the fact that if things played out the way she originally wanted she would have dealt with what she done on her own and *I would have never know.* I HATE being lied to or manipulated. I always have since I was a kid. And I resent the fact that she was willing to let me live with this big a## lie on my back for the rest of my life.


I saw this and could not let it go after I read it. "I would have never known" this plagued me later on in my R. Not so much in the early stages. 

...resentment, looking back, what if....


You are so right, you would never have known, had things played out the way they wanted it too.
We were lied to and deceived, and they were never planning on telling us the truth. They were prepared to lie to us forever. 

My take on this.

That was then, this is now. The truth is out, the reality is, we do know, and they are sorry. I Don't know your story but I know EI is very sorry and wished it never happened. That's the reality of our situation. Not, the what if things went another way. That will ruin R and certainly build that resentment up.
Every now and then I have to fight that one off too, not often. In a way we do have to suck it up. We have to know had things been different they would still be lying today. But, we cannot live in that world of what if, that's just no place to live, it's not reality. 

What's real is we have spouses who are now fighting for us, who are sorry, who are not proud of what they did. EI hates what she did with a passion, thoughts of her past A are terrible memories, NOT good ones. I focus on today and our recent past that's positive. If I sat around thinking about all the what if's then I wouldn't be true to myself or EI or this R and, I would drive myself crazy. Ultimately, I wanted happiness, that was, in the beginning, with EI or without. I chose to go for it with EI and I am very glad I did. We are living now, things are good. EI is truly sorry and I see it in her eyes and hear it in her voice. That's not a what if, that's not a, she would have kept on lying to me, that's a truth I can see and hear and I know it's real.

EI is with me, she loves me, she is sorry and she hates what she did. That's it. I have to ultimately accept that or not. We have to take it and run with it, or run away from it. I'm happier now then I have been in a very long time, running with it was the right thing to do for me and for us. I trusted early on that EI was being honest about it all and about us. It was a leap of faith considering what happened, one I was willing to take. 
In a way, R, is a gamble in the beginning, you have to trust that the lies and manipulations are over. It may be trust but verify, but ultimately you have to trust again. Ok, I'm getting off track now...sorry about that..

Resentment is dangerous and powerful. It builds until it blows, it turns good things into bad, it ruins good moments and it breeds anger. It's deadly to a Reconciliation. I hope you get control of it soon. Just try and focus on the now, not the then. I was told long ago to rip the rear view mirror off the window, to stop looking back. I did just that and with a little time things got much better. 

Take care.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Thanks a lot B1. I've been told the same thing from both my IC and our MC. I'm not there yet but I'm making progress. Letting go of resentment is tough and something I've never been particularly good at, but I'm trying.

Thank you . It's encouraging reading post from you and EI.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> Thanks a lot B1. I've been told the same thing from both my IC and our MC. I'm not there yet but I'm making progress. Letting go of resentment is tough and something I've never been particularly good at, but I'm trying.
> 
> Thank you . It's encouraging reading post from you and EI.


You and me both. I held onto the resentment I had for my first wife for quite a long time. In the end I realized that it really only hurt me.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> You and me both. I held onto the resentment I had for my first wife for quite a long time. In the end I realized that it really only hurt me.


That's a fact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Want2babettrme

I have heard that holding on to resentments is like drinking poison ourselves hoping to kill the person we are angry with.

I also


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Want2babettrme said:


> I have heard that holding on to resentments is like drinking poison ourselves hoping to kill the person we are angry with.
> 
> I also read about someone who could not find it in their heart to let go of resentments against another (i.e. forgive). The writer prayed for the willingness to forgive.


Holding onto resentment really does hurt you but letting it go is easier said than done. I was told when I was ready to let it go I would let it go. But that didn't happen. I wanted to but couldn't. Then I was told that I would let go when my life was fulfilled and I didn't need to shield myself. Well I got married, started a family, I was content and yet still I couldn't let it go. I honestly don't know why I finally was able to let go of my resentment toward my ex. One day I just felt sorry for her. Just like that it was gone. I still don't know why.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by Refuse to be played *
> Best word to describe us at the moment is stable. *I'd say our biggest problem right now is my resentment.* Also the fact that if things played out the way she originally wanted she would have dealt with what she done on her own and I would have never know. I HATE being lied to or manipulated. I always have since I was a kid. And I resent the fact that she was willing to let me live with this big a## lie on my back for the rest of my life.
> 
> 
> 
> *By B1*
> I saw this and could not let it go after I read it. "I would have never known" this plagued me later on in my R. Not so much in the early stages.
> 
> ...resentment, looking back, what if....
> 
> 
> You are so right, you would never have known, had things played out the way they wanted it too.
> We were lied to and deceived, and they were never planning on telling us the truth. They were prepared to lie to us forever.
> 
> My take on this.
> 
> *That was then, this is now. The truth is out, the reality is, we do know, and they are sorry. I Don't know your story but I know EI is very sorry and wished it never happened. That's the reality of our situation. Not, the what if things went another way. That will ruin R and certainly build that resentment up.*Every now and then I have to fight that one off too, not often. In a way we do have to suck it up. We have to know had things been different they would still be lying today. But, we cannot live in that world of what if, that's just no place to live, it's not reality.
> 
> What's real is we have spouses who are now fighting for us, who are sorry, who are not proud of what they did. EI hates what she did with a passion, thoughts of her past A are terrible memories, NOT good ones. I focus on today and our recent past that's positive. If I sat around thinking about all the what if's then I wouldn't be true to myself or EI or this R and, I would drive myself crazy. Ultimately, I wanted happiness, that was, in the beginning, with EI or without. I chose to go for it with EI and I am very glad I did. We are living now, things are good. EI is truly sorry and I see it in her eyes and hear it in her voice. That's not a what if, that's not a, she would have kept on lying to me, that's a truth I can see and hear and I know it's real.
> 
> *EI is with me, she loves me, she is sorry and she hates what she did. That's it. I have to ultimately accept that or not.* We have to take it and run with it, or run away from it. I'm happier now then I have been in a very long time, running with it was the right thing to do for me and for us. I trusted early on that EI was being honest about it all and about us. It was a leap of faith considering what happened, one I was willing to take.
> 
> 
> In a way, R, is a gamble in the beginning, you have to trust that the lies and manipulations are over. It may be trust but verify, but ultimately you have to trust again. Ok, I'm getting off track now...sorry about that..
> 
> *Resentment is dangerous and powerful. It builds until it blows, it turns good things into bad, it ruins good moments and it breeds anger. It's deadly to a Reconciliation*. I hope you get control of it soon. Just try and focus on the now, not the then. I was told long ago to rip the rear view mirror off the window, to stop looking back. I did just that and with a little time things got much better.
> 
> Take care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Quote of Refused to be played*
> Thanks a lot B1. I've been told the same thing from both my IC and our MC. I'm not there yet but I'm making progress. Letting go of resentment is tough and something I've never been particularly good at, but I'm trying.
> 
> *Thank you . It's encouraging reading post from you and EI. *



I have bolded B1 and RTBP words because I think they are very important and worth repeating. Actually the whole post of both are worth bolding but I did not want to go crazy with the bold.


The above posts are another reason why this thread is important. I know that other threads are important also but this thread deals specifically with one of the greatest pains in all of marriage. I think that most of us BSs can fully relate to Refused To Be Played, I know that I sure can. However, by me relating to Refused To Be Played (RTBP), well that is not going to help him much. What can help RTBP is someone like B1 that has been where he is and is now gaining. 


RTBP got the same advice from his professional counselors and props to those excellent counselors but sometimes it means a lot more coming from someone like B1 that has been in the same situation. I remember when my mother lost her brother and was devastated. I remember her telling me much later that she got comfort from a woman that did not graduate from the 8th grade. That woman had lost immediate family loved ones and her advice and comfort meant a lot to my mom and helped carry her through her rough period. My point is that someone that has experienced the same as you have can give you strength. *I am not saying that the counselors are not important it is just that sometimes a person that has suffered what you have can add that extra bit of strength and counsel that hits home a bit more*.

In addition B1 and EI have been so brave and open about their crises and we know they are for real. *Not only because they have been open with us but because they are SUCCEEDING!!!!!!*

After all success is the test that gives credibility in my book. I doubt that RTBP would be as encouraged with B1’s post if he had not read lot of B1 and EI’s story on this thread. That is why I hope that this thread does not disappear again. We are very grateful to whoever got the thread back but after having it disappear several times I want to remind the TAM authorities that this thread among others is so very valuable to the purpose of this TAM web site.


I know that this web site can serve a lot of purposes for those that are involved in infidelity such as venting, expressing theories, and challenging the BS and WS, etc. I just want to draw attention to the fact that when you have one member, in this case B1, helping another member RTBP fight against destructive enotions such as resentment.* I think that is is very valuable to TAM and the readers*. In addition, the only motivation that B1 has or others are that they want to help another person and are qualified to do so because the have been there and are succeeding. . The motivation is certainly not the money and I am convinced that B1 is doing this out of compassion for his fellow man and woman. I believe this because B1 risks triggers by coming back to this board.

*I am gad that we have this thread and have B1 and EI and others that are winning against infidelity and are helping those that are in certain situations.*


----------



## illwill

Glad this thread is back.


----------



## pidge70

Ah, resentment. A love killer to be sure. My resentments are holding me back. Funny thing is, not one of them is even about Joe's RA. What does that say about me? I've been questioning that a lot. Maybe it has to do with some people on this forum telling me I got what I deserved. I'm not sure. I'm so tired anymore, my heart actually hurts.


----------



## margrace

B1 said:


> My take on this.
> 
> That was then, this is now. The truth is out, the reality is, we do know, and they are sorry. I Don't know your story but I know EI is very sorry and wished it never happened. That's the reality of our situation. Not, the what if things went another way. That will ruin R and certainly build that resentment up....What's real is we have spouses who are now fighting for us, who are sorry, who are not proud of what they did. EI hates what she did with a passion, thoughts of her past A are terrible memories, NOT good ones. I focus on today and our recent past that's positive. If I sat around thinking about all the what if's then I wouldn't be true to myself or EI or this R and, I would drive myself crazy. Ultimately, I wanted happiness, that was, in the beginning, with EI or without. I chose to go for it with EI and I am very glad I did. We are living now, things are good. EI is truly sorry and I see it in her eyes and hear it in her voice. That's not a what if, that's not a, she would have kept on lying to me, that's a truth I can see and hear and I know it's real....Resentment is dangerous and powerful. It builds until it blows, it turns good things into bad, it ruins good moments and it breeds anger. It's deadly to a Reconciliation. I hope you get control of it soon. Just try and focus on the now, not the then. I was told long ago to rip the rear view mirror off the window, to stop looking back. I did just that and with a little time things got much better.


yes, this is a great example of why this thread is so valuable. thank you B1 and also to those of you who responded and added to it.

when i am alone too long with my thoughts, the inside of my head becomes like an echo chamber of the kinds of issues that RTBP raised. if i don't do anything to interrupt them while they are echoing around, they get amplified and so do all the feelings that are connected to them. 

they can totally take you over that way, so that you lose your bearings and get submerged in ideas/memories/feelings that belong to a past time. 

not that those feelings aren't real or important -- they are! but when i believe that my fWS is remorseful, and i see that he is showing me that every day in every way humanly possible, and i know that things are different (and 100% better) now, i don't want to keep ruining _*now*_ by falling into a pit of my stirred-up resentments.

i still do that sometimes too -- ruin now. 

but these are the posts that can shake me out of it! today it's actually a beautiful day here in the east FOR ONCE so it's not a day to waste on echos 

i guess sometimes it takes someone else's words to talk sense into us


----------



## happyman64

pidge70 said:


> Ah, resentment. A love killer to be sure. My resentments are holding me back. Funny thing is, not one of them is even about Joe's RA. What does that say about me? I've been questioning that a lot. Maybe it has to do with some people on this forum telling me I got what I deserved. I'm not sure. I'm so tired anymore, my heart actually hurts.


No one deserves an affair Pidge. Not even you.

Sadly some of our spouses react.

They think hurting the one they love will make them feel better or feel "even" with the score.

Sadly, most often as an after thought, they realize they doubled down on the hurt. they hurt their wayward spouse, but they hurt themselves in the process.

I look forward to the day when your heart and Joe's no longer hurt.

Keep at it.

HM


----------



## margrace

happyman64 said:


> No one deserves an affair Pidge. Not even you.
> 
> Sadly some of our spouses react.
> 
> They think hurting the one they love will make them feel better or feel "even" with the score.
> 
> Sadly, most often as an after thought, they realize they doubled down on the hurt. She they hurt their wayward spouse, but they hurt themselves in the process.
> 
> I look forward to the day when your heart and Joe's no longer hurt.
> 
> Keep at it.
> 
> HM


i agree with everything that HM said, pidge, and i am feeling for you....

early on, i had those RA thoughts -- because i thought there was no other way to make him understand how blown to bits i was, and also because i wanted to hurt him back. 

but even then, a part of me knew that those revenge wishes were BS. two wrongs don't make a right, etc. etc., and worst of all, i would be devaluing myself in the process.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Ah, resentment. A love killer to be sure. My resentments are holding me back. Funny thing is, not one of them is even about Joe's RA. What does that say about me? I've been questioning that a lot. Maybe it has to do with some people on this forum telling me I got what I deserved. I'm not sure. I'm so tired anymore, my heart actually hurts.


 Don't give up,this crap takes a long while,I really want to see you and joe get to
a happy place together.
No one deserves to be cheated on,it crossed my mind and I'm glad I did'nt.
It would have made things much worse.
I'm pulling and praying for you two,I have a good feeling about you guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

margrace said:


> to whoever brought this thread back from wherever it was, thank you!


I have six simple words for you, lovely lady: Welcome back to the Reconciliation thread!


----------



## Mr Blunt

[


> B]By Margrace[/B]
> i guess sometimes it takes someone else's words to talk sense into us



*Yes and people like Margrace that are succeeding in R gives lots of encourgament! Thank you Margrace for coming back to our thread that has anguish, hope and success!*


----------



## larry.gray

Refuse to be played said:


> Best word to describe us at the moment is stable. I'd say our biggest problem right now is my resentment. Also the fact that if things played out the way she originally wanted she would have dealt with what she done on her own and I would have never know. I HATE being lied to or manipulated. I always have since I was a kid. And I resent the fact that she was willing to let me live with this big a## lie on my back for the rest of my life.



Well the question for FG is if she thinks now that she could have pulled it off?

It's one thing to think "yeah, I can bury this." 

It's another to live the lie. To look you in the eye and keep right on doing it. Yeah, she did lie. But if she fixed things herself and brought herself back into the marriage, it would start eating at her.




Refuse to be played said:


> Eh, I came off a little bit whiny yesterday. Not as bad as I made it sound. It's a tough thing to swallow but I'll be alright one way or another.


Uh no. Not whiny one bit.


----------



## CantSitStill

I'm happy Valentine's Day is over. I'm happy that calvin and I stay strong when triggers hit him like a ton of bricks. It's hard on both of us when we are reminded of the EA. I don't really go to any threads but my own. My whole life has changed. I work full time and I have tons more appreciation for calvin. We are doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Oddly enough, we had a great V-day. Last night was a different story, however!

MC is looking promising, and I'm hoping it will improve things.


----------



## TBT

bump


----------



## EI

TBT said:


> bump


I don't trust it. I think this is a gas lighting mirage..........


----------



## TBT

EI said:


> I don't trust it. I think this is a gas lighting mirage..........


Lol.It's like Brigadoon,just with a shorter time span! You've gotta get while the getting's good!


----------



## Mr Blunt

*Is there some wy to get a copy of this thread?*

It is obvious that this website's ability to keep this valuable thread on the board is about as reliable as Charlie Sheen to remain normal!


----------



## Acabado

Mr Blunt said:


> *Is there some wy to get a copy of this thread?*[/COLOR]


I also am interested in this. Have no idea.


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> *Is there some wy to get a copy of this thread?*
> 
> It is obvious that this website's ability to keep this valuable thread on the board is about as reliable as Charlie Sheen to remain normal!





Acabado said:


> I also am interested in this. Have no idea.




Me, too!


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone,
Just popping in to say hi. Hope you are all ok.
I'm doing ok. 2 months separated now, had some difficult days but they come and go. I've got some amazing friends and they have been so supportive.
Hubby and I still have regular contact. We txt everyday and usually we all have Sunday lunch together as a family. 
I think there is definitely still love there between us but we have both said how much better we both feel, more relaxed, less stress, no more trying to fix something that was so broken. We are both healing in our own way.

Hugs
DG
X


----------



## Laurel

My WH and I have been in R for 7 months now and things have been going exceptionally well. He's really changed and is doing everything he can to save this marriage. The past few months have been unbelievably happy (who would have ever thought after such horrible devastation) . We are both very committed to our new relationship and I believe we will make it through it stronger than ever. 

However, we had a setback today. Had our first non-affair related argument today since D-day. And honestly I think I completely overreacted to something he said and took it the wrong way (because I am obviously still emotionally on edge, which I see now), and it just escalated into fighting over something ridiculous. Then all the resentment of his infidelity flooding back in and it made me even angrier at him. It took everything I had not to throw the throw the past in his face while we were arguing. How do others handle this? 

Also, earlier this week his OW tried to contact him after 7 months. This is of course probably why I was so emotionally fragile today. He did the right thing, showed me the message and then deleted it unresponded to, but ever since all the unpleasant thoughts and anxiety have come rolling back in. Just the reminder that this person exists and is still fishing for my husband. It's depressing.


----------



## MattMatt

pidge70 said:


> Ah, resentment. A love killer to be sure. My resentments are holding me back. Funny thing is, not one of them is even about Joe's RA. What does that say about me? I've been questioning that a lot. Maybe it has to do with some people on this forum telling me I got what I deserved. I'm not sure. I'm so tired anymore, my heart actually hurts.


Oh. Rare. A trigger for me.

My wife believed she deserved my revenge affair. Of course, she didn't.

Did you deserve Joe's revenge affair? No.

Did my AP deserve to be used by me? No.

I hope you two can get through the resentments and the angst to be what you should be, Joe and Pidge, the number 1 couple! :smthumbup:

Not long back someone who knows Mrs Matt and I said: "You two are so cool! You're really quite old -no offence intended- but you are obviously so much in love! And it's obvious that you'd never cheat on each other!"

I remembered the nonsense we'd put ourselves through and I thanked our young friend for her kind words.


----------



## jupiter13

I have discovered resentment I didn't even know I had. In rewriting the past /relationship reflecting back on WH behavior where I once was fine has brought up all kinds of things to be resentful about. It is like being flooded. I can only figure that I will get through and over one way or another and it will not happen over night as I had hoped and it is not going to go away. 
today was not a good day but should have been a song came on the radio first thing and set the mood. Just blah.......

Glad to see everyone is still here.


----------



## larry.gray

Now that the thread is over 10,000 posts, I think you've hit a good milestone....

Maybe it's time to start a reconciliation 2.0 thread, one that's less likely to disappear?


----------



## Mrs Alone

Just found this thread and want to say thank you to B1 for your reassuring words. I am new to this forum, this thread and this whole "experience" but what I have discovered in these last few months is that the times that I have felt the strongest have been those when I have focussed only on the present - appreciating what my husband and I have right now and not focusing on what happened "back then".

Newbies like myself do really appreciate the wisdom of those of you that have walked our path before and I thank you for your support.


----------



## kristin2349

Mrs Alone said:


> Just found this thread and want to say thank you to B1 for your reassuring words. I am new to this forum, this thread and this whole "experience" but what I have discovered in these last few months is that the times that I have felt the strongest have been those when I have focussed only on the present - appreciating what my husband and I have right now and not focusing on what happened "back then".
> 
> Newbies like myself do really appreciate the wisdom of those of you that have walked our path before and I thank you for your support.



Welcome to the club you never wanted to be a part of! You'll find some great advice, strength, and perspective here. 

You aren't alone here.


----------



## Philat

jupiter13 said:


> I have discovered resentment I didn't even know I had. In rewriting the past /relationship reflecting back on WH behavior where I once was fine has brought up all kinds of things to be resentful about. It is like being flooded. I can only figure that I will get through and over one way or another and it will not happen over night as I had hoped and it is not going to go away.
> today was not a good day but should have been a song came on the radio first thing and set the mood. Just blah.......
> 
> Glad to see everyone is still here.


Yes. Not only do cheaters attempt to rewrite the history of your relationship in an attempt at self-justification, but their lies when revealed lead you, whether justified or not, to rewrite some of that history yourself. That overnight trip he/she went on to attend a high school reunion 20 years ago -- What REALLY happened?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Laurel said:


> My WH and I have been in R for 7 months now and things have been going exceptionally well. He's really changed and is doing everything he can to save this marriage. The past few months have been unbelievably happy (who would have ever thought after such horrible devastation) . We are both very committed to our new relationship and I believe we will make it through it stronger than ever.
> 
> However, we had a setback today. Had our first non-affair related argument today since D-day. And honestly I think I completely overreacted to something he said and took it the wrong way (because I am obviously still emotionally on edge, which I see now), and it just escalated into fighting over something ridiculous. Then all the resentment of his infidelity flooding back in and it made me even angrier at him. It took everything I had not to throw the throw the past in his face while we were arguing. How do others handle this?
> 
> Also, earlier this week his OW tried to contact him after 7 months. This is of course probably why I was so emotionally fragile today. He did the right thing, showed me the message and then deleted it unresponded to, but ever since all the unpleasant thoughts and anxiety have come rolling back in. Just the reminder that this person exists and is still fishing for my husband. It's depressing.


Welcome to the reconciliation thread. You're going to have ups and downs. That's why it's referred to as the roller coaster. As long as you know why you overreacted and talk it out with your husband things should continue to progress. It's normal to have a setback every once in a while. Just keep staying the course and you will both make it.


----------



## jim123

Well EI, I understand now. I guess you were right (surprise?)

I watched in the private section one of our FWW come for help and get destroyed.

I get it now. It was horrible to watch. She needed help and all she got was attack after attack. She is a great person who has turned into even a better person.

It is a shame what happens. I wish her the best.


----------



## EI

jim123 said:


> Well EI, I understand now. I guess you were right (surprise?)
> 
> I watched in the private section one of our FWW come for help and get destroyed.
> 
> I get it now. It was horrible to watch. She needed help and all she got was attack after attack. She is a great person who has turned into even a better person.
> 
> It is a shame what happens. I wish her the best.


Yes, Jim, and it's very disheartening. Unless you've seen it in action, you wouldn't believe how malicious and vengeful certain people seem to think they are entitled to behave towards any and all WS's. Whether their transgressions were in the past, in the present, or may potentially be in the future; whether they are deemed remorseful, unremorseful, in the fog, out of the fog, there is no fog, is all determined solely at the discretion of the TAMer/judge, with no consideration, whatsoever, given to anything else that the WS may say. Because circumstances are inconsequential after someone has confessed to having been a WS, particularly women. Anything they say afterward is suspect because, after all, if they're talking, they're lying. 

Often, these attacks are so demoralizing (yes, so is being a BS, as I've become very aware) that the mods have to quickly delete posts, ban the offenders and even close threads. So, again, unless you witness it in action, you just can't imagine how vicious these attacks can be. No WS would remain on TAM beyond their first post if they were not desperately seeking help. What people can not or will not grasp is that you have to meet people where they are, NOT where you think they should be.

Thank you for the sensitivity that you put into your posts, Jim. That makes all of the difference in the world. I'm so grateful for the support that B1 and I received from the amazing posters who have contributed to the R thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Hi, I see this thread is back for now. I don't have any update because we are still having huge ups and downs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Feeling so frustrated. Calvin is feeling even more frustrated. Sigh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

CantSitStill said:


> Feeling so frustrated. Calvin is feeling even more frustrated. Sigh
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know this is all hard but as I told Mrs. Mathias, you need to have value too. 

I like Calvin and understand him. Too often he is his own worst enemy. I have that problem as well. 

I am grateful that my eyes and heart have been open before it is too late.

The only thing I can say to Calvin is do not let the OM win. If you break up he wins. Every time you fight about the A, he wins. All time spent on the A is about him. Don't give him that.


----------



## sidney2718

EI said:


> Yes, Jim, and it's very disheartening. Unless you've seen it in action, you wouldn't believe how malicious and vengeful certain people seem to think they are entitled to behave towards any and all WS's. Whether their transgressions were in the past, in the present, or may potentially be in the future; whether they are deemed remorseful, unremorseful, in the fog, out of the fog, there is no fog, is all determined solely at the discretion of the TAMer/judge, with no consideration, whatsoever, given to anything else that the WS may say. Because circumstances are inconsequential after someone has confessed to having been a WS, particularly women. Anything they say afterward is suspect because, after all, if they're talking, they're lying.
> 
> Often, these attacks are so demoralizing (yes, so is being a BS, as I've become very aware) that the mods have to quickly delete posts, ban the offenders and even close threads. So, again, unless you witness it in action, you just can't imagine how vicious these attacks can be. No WS would remain on TAM beyond their first post if they were not desperately seeking help. What people can not or will not grasp is that you have to meet people where they are, NOT where you think they should be.
> 
> Thank you for the sensitivity that you put into your posts, Jim. That makes all of the difference in the world. I'm so grateful for the support that B1 and I received from the amazing posters who have contributed to the R thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I want to totally associate myself with what Jim and EI have said here. And I particularly want to stress EI's point about the victims often being women.


----------



## kristin2349

jim123 said:


> I know this is all hard but as I told Mrs. Mathias, you need to have value too.
> 
> I like Calvin and understand him. Too often he is his own worst enemy. I have that problem as well.
> 
> I am grateful that my eyes and heart have been open before it is too late.
> 
> The only thing I can say to Calvin is do not let the OM win. If you break up he wins. Every time you fight about the A, he wins. All time spent on the A is about him. Don't give him that.



That's a great point of view Jim123, from my very limited experience it's so very hard. It seems so simple when you read your words. Then I poke at them (internally). I'd love to embrace your words and live by them. Go forward clean and quickly. I'd really love to shed the label "betrayed spouse". And I'm sure the Wayward would love to drop that "brand". 

I'd love to say I'm so enlightened that I can rise above and do it all perfectly. But I'm all too human. I do give OW time. I try to figure it all out. I have doubts. It is so early in authentic attempts at R. I know it will get better. And if it doesn't work. I willingly went headlong into this. Eyes wide open and I won't wonder "what if" I didn't try". There are examples of R that are so inspiring. 

Whatever your "win" ends up. You will know if you took the right path. Right is rarely easy, but is there any other way? Not for me. Not blind or stupid. I just don't want to take a shortcut on this. 

That's just me. To each his own.


----------



## calvin

jim123 said:


> I know this is all hard but as I told Mrs. Mathias, you need to have value too.
> 
> I like Calvin and understand him. Too often he is his own worst enemy. I have that problem as well.
> 
> I am grateful that my eyes and heart have been open before it is too late.
> 
> The only thing I can say to Calvin is do not let the OM win. If you break up he wins. Every time you fight about the A, he wins. All time spent on the A is about him. Don't give him that.


 The POS would not let up for a year and a half,the threats to rape my wife,come to my house,
The fights he set up and ran from,the down right filthy things he said about my family and
A lot more,no he hasn't cme close to winning,he knew what he said got to me but he is afraid
to run into this steelworker,oh I did a lot of damage to him,a lot.
For me,I won't be satified till I have my hands around his neck.
I'm patient.
He can run and hide forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

calvin said:


> The POS would not let up for a year and a half,the threats to rape my wife,come to my house,
> The fights he set up and ran from,the down right filthy things he said about my family and
> A lot more,no he hasn't cme close to winning,he knew what he said got to me but he is afraid
> to run into this steelworker,oh I did a lot of damage to him,a lot.
> For me,I won't be satified till I have my hands around his neck.
> I'm patient.
> He can run and hide forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin,

I grew up by White Sox park. I know this type of guy well. He wins by you losing what you have. He is a con. He is a loser. The only gain he can have is by you losing what you have.

Laugh at this guy, he gets off by making you angry. He spent time as some beotch is jail. He knows how to get under your skin.

He is not worth you time nor your marriage.


----------



## jim123

kristin2349 said:


> That's a great point of view Jim123, from my very limited experience it's so very hard. It seems so simple when you read your words. Then I poke at them (internally). I'd love to embrace your words and live by them. Go forward clean and quickly. I'd really love to shed the label "betrayed spouse". And I'm sure the Wayward would love to drop that "brand".
> 
> I'd love to say I'm so enlightened that I can rise above and do it all perfectly. But I'm all too human. I do give OW time. I try to figure it all out. I have doubts. It is so early in authentic attempts at R. I know it will get better. And if it doesn't work. I willingly went headlong into this. Eyes wide open and I won't wonder "what if" I didn't try". There are examples of R that are so inspiring.
> 
> Whatever your "win" ends up. You will know if you took the right path. Right is rarely easy, but is there any other way? Not for me. Not blind or stupid. I just don't want to take a shortcut on this.
> 
> That's just me. To each his own.


You can not drop it, that is a mistake. Learn from it and build on it. The most important this is to work on you. Make sure you are never in the situation you are now.

The path does not matter as long as you own it. Nothing is ever easy. And by taking it easy is how so many of us ended in this mess in the first place.


----------



## EI

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to think that CWI is the nicest forum on TAM. :scratchhead: At least people in CWI have just cause (yeah, yeah, the WS just insinuated that bullying WS's, although not justifiable, may be understandable....... sarcastic pun intended ) to throw rocks at each other during heated debates regarding infidelity. There are some, presumably, grown adults in some of the other forums who are acting like 2 year olds in some sort of TAM thread turf war. 

I've never been so relieved to get back to Coping with Infidelity in my life.


----------



## soulpotato

Philat said:


> Yes. Not only do cheaters attempt to rewrite the history of your relationship in an attempt at self-justification...


Not all cheaters rewrite the history of the relationship.


----------



## kristin2349

jim123 said:


> You can not drop it, that is a mistake. Learn from it and build on it. The most important this is to work on you. Make sure you are never in the situation you are now.
> 
> The path does not matter as long as you own it. Nothing is ever easy. And by taking it easy is how so many of us ended in this mess in the first place.



Exactly what my sleep deprived mind was thinking! We are on the same page. 

Thanks for your insight. It really resonates with me.


----------



## bfree

jim123 said:


> You can not drop it, that is a mistake. Learn from it and build on it. The most important this is to work on you. Make sure you are never in the situation you are now.
> 
> The path does not matter as long as you own it. Nothing is ever easy. And by taking it easy is how so many of us ended in this mess in the first place.


I've had some really bad things happen to me in my life. Most of those were self inflicted. But I don't regret any of it because each and every experience I had got me to the place I am now. Without all those painful lessons I wouldn't be the man I am today.


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> I never thought I'd say this, but I'm starting to think that CWI is the nicest forum on TAM. :scratchhead: At least people in CWI have just cause (yeah, yeah, the WS just insinuated that bullying WS's, although not justifiable, may be understandable....... sarcastic pun intended ) to throw rocks at each other during heated debates regarding infidelity. There are some, presumably, grown adults in some of the other forums who are acting like 2 year olds in some sort of TAM thread turf war.
> 
> I've never been so relieved to get back to Coping with Infidelity in my life.


Oh yeah? Just point me in that general direction and I'll show em what for!


----------



## EI

bfree said:


> Oh yeah? Just point me in that general direction and I'll show em what for!


Just check my recent posting history, bfree, then you can go get 'em......  Nah, don't waste any time on it. I wouldn't have, myself, unless I had been battling insomnia and needed a little distraction to tire me out. It was "funner" than a crossword puzzle! 

Hint: Not in CWI. I had a little fun there last night, too. But, that was genuinely playful sarcasm. The other was genuine sarcastic sarcasm..... 


Edited to add: I just noticed that there has been a massive cleanup of the aforementioned thread and a few bans slapped on for good measure. So, my posting history will not yield any clues. I must clarify that my posts were removed because they were "quoting" the offender's posts........ not because they were offensive, themselves. I prefer to save all of my offensive posting skills for CWI!


----------



## EI

Philat said:


> Yes. Not only do cheaters attempt to rewrite the history of your relationship in an attempt at self-justification, but their lies when revealed lead you, whether justified or not, to rewrite some of that history yourself. That overnight trip he/she went on to attend a high school reunion 20 years ago -- What REALLY happened?





soulpotato said:


> Not all cheaters rewrite the history of the relationship.




We love ya, Philat, but I have to agree with soulpotato on this one. Because I know that I did not rewrite my own marital history with B1, I cannot presume to know whether anyone else has or not. I try to take an OP's post at face value and go from there. Then when/if I see, glaringly, obvious holes in their story, I don't hesitate to point them out. My demeanor on TAM has changed since I first began posting only because my perception has evolved, but my facts have never changed. My story has always been the same.


----------



## Philat

soulpotato said:


> Not all cheaters rewrite the history of the relationship.


Agreed, SP and EI. I did not mean to imply that this happens in 100 percent of cases.


----------



## MattMatt

calvin said:


> The POS would not let up for a year and a half,the threats to rape my wife,come to my house,
> The fights he set up and ran from,the down right filthy things he said about my family and
> A lot more,no he hasn't cme close to winning,he knew what he said got to me but he is afraid
> to run into this steelworker,oh I did a lot of damage to him,a lot.
> For me,I won't be satified till I have my hands around his neck.
> I'm patient.
> He can run and hide forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calvin, most people of the POSOM's age, when they have a fight have to say: "Hey, man! Please hold my jacket while I have this fight!"

POSOM says: "Hey, man! Please hold my teeth while I have this fight!"

It's not quite the same, is it?:rofl:


----------



## calvin

MattMatt said:


> Calvin, most people of the POSOM's age, when they have a fight have to say: "Hey, man! Please hold my jacket while I have this fight!"
> 
> POSOM says: "Hey, man! Please hold my teeth while I have this fight!"
> 
> It's not quite the same, is it?:rofl:


 That gave me a laugh M&M,that was funny.
I was not in a good mood when I wrote that,needed to let it out.

I ment it though.
X-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Hold my teeth please!!!
You got my sides hurting,good stuff!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

One thread has me wondering, what did most people do on your first anniversary after Dday?

Ours is in two months and we usually made a big spectacle in the past. This year RTBP doesn't want to do much, so far all he has agreed to do is go out to dinner. I would like to plan out a bit more for us and do something special for RTBP. Especially since our anniversary is on a Saturday this year. RTBP has been very vague and a bit uncooperative in any talks I try to initiate so I'm shooting in the dark a bit. Did any fWSs attempt any 'grand showings' on the first anniversary after Dday or was it too soon?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## user_zero

Forever Grateful said:


> One thread has me wondering, what did most people do on your first anniversary after Dday?
> 
> Ours is in two months and we usually made a big spectacle in the past. *This year RTBP doesn't want to do much, so far all he has agreed to do is go out to dinner*. I would like to plan out a bit more for us and do something special for RTBP. Especially since our anniversary is on a Saturday this year. *RTBP has been very vague and a bit uncooperative in any talks I try to initiate* so I'm shooting in the dark a bit. Did any fWSs attempt any 'grand showings' on the first anniversary after Dday or was it too soon?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not married and I never was, so I have little experience about this.

I always thought married people celebrate the anniversary because of the meaning that special day has for them (for their spouses , their family). I think the question is after all the things that happened between you two , what that day means to you and RTBP. I think you should have a honest talk about this. I think the meaning of anniversary day is changed for you two, just based on the bold part.

so sorry for not being much of a help.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> One thread has me wondering, what did most people do on your first anniversary after Dday?
> 
> Ours is in two months and we usually made a big spectacle in the past. This year RTBP doesn't want to do much, so far all he has agreed to do is go out to dinner. I would like to plan out a bit more for us and do something special for RTBP. Especially since our anniversary is on a Saturday this year. RTBP has been very vague and a bit uncooperative in any talks I try to initiate so I'm shooting in the dark a bit. Did any fWSs attempt any 'grand showings' on the first anniversary after Dday or was it too soon?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't reconcile, I divorced. But I can tell you that after D-day wedding anniversaries just don't mean the same thing as they did before. Speaking for myself and I suspect many other BS's celebrating a wedding anniversary after infidelity is a bit of a slap in the face. It's another insult on top of all the rest. It's a reminder that the old marriage is gone and the anniversary is more like a remembrance of a death than anything else. At the very least it's just a useless endeavor and waste of time. At least that's how I feel/felt. Others may be different. If rtbp is willing to go out to dinner then maybe that's all he can do right now. Anything else might be too much. In any case I wouldn't push him.


----------



## daisygirl 41

My husband txt me yesterday to say he's going out with the OW on Friday. Exactly 2 years ago to the day that I found out they were together last time and nearly 3 years since the first time.

I can't say I'm completely surprised. I was half expecting it, but it still hurts, even though we are now separated. I feel so humiliated and embarrassed all over again. Her and her husband are still living together but are divorcing.

He had the nerve to txt me and ask me how I was this morning, and to txt him if I need anything, he'll always be there if I need him!!
Really? Still trying to cake eat! Not this time.

I just feel very sad!


----------



## StarGazer101

DG I am so sorry to read your update, it is so awfully unfair and sad. I hope that you are ok in as much as you can be. ((hugs))

My own situation is only slightly better. At the weekend it emerged that Lister has continued to lie throughout our R, and his response to dealing with the situation was retaliation and (attempted) manipulation. I've learned enough to know that I deserve so much better, so I stood my ground, but I am in bits.


----------



## soulpotato

FG, don't do a grand showing if RTBP only seems interested in a quiet dinner. You'll be setting yourself up for hurt, and he may feel like you don't care about his wishes/feelings if you go ahead with something more flashy after he told you what he wanted. Like bfree says, it's going to be more painful for RTBP than anything. 

GF and I have abandoned our old anniversary. New one is in 3+ months, and I'll be following her lead with plans.


----------



## soulpotato

I'm sorry, DG.  He is being a jerk. 

How are you doing otherwise?


----------



## soulpotato

StarGazer101 said:


> DG I am so sorry to read your update, it is so awfully unfair and sad. I hope that you are ok in as much as you can be. ((hugs))
> 
> My own situation is only slightly better. At the weekend it emerged that Lister has continued to lie throughout our R, and his response to dealing with the situation was retaliation and (attempted) manipulation. I've learned enough to know that I deserve so much better, so I stood my ground, but I am in bits.


SG, I don't know very much of your story, but...Lister was still lying after all this time? Did he lie about details, or was it something else?  I am sorry to hear that his reaction to the situation was so destructive and hurtful.


----------



## russell28

daisygirl 41 said:


> My husband txt me yesterday to say he's going out with the OW on Friday. Exactly 2 years ago to the day that I found out they were together last time and nearly 3 years since the first time.
> 
> I can't say I'm completely surprised. I was half expecting it, but it still hurts, even though we are now separated. I feel so humiliated and embarrassed all over again. Her and her husband are still living together but are divorcing.
> 
> He had the nerve to txt me and ask me how I was this morning, and to txt him if I need anything, he'll always be there if I need him!!
> Really? Still trying to cake eat! Not this time.
> 
> I just feel very sad!


Tell him there is something he can do for you, to leave you alone.. to stop the texts. That you're separated, and he's with his new girlfriend, he should text her and fill her head with lies now, instead of you. 

That's all you need, is for him to stop acting like an idiot. You don't kick someone in the crotch, then ask if they need anything... Yea, I need an icepack ahole... 

That's if you tell him anything, it might be better to go the ignore route.. only answer questions about money, kids, divorce proceedings...

I'm sorry you feel sad..


----------



## russell28

Forever Grateful said:


> One thread has me wondering, what did most people do on your first anniversary after Dday?
> 
> Ours is in two months and we usually made a big spectacle in the past. This year RTBP doesn't want to do much, so far all he has agreed to do is go out to dinner. I would like to plan out a bit more for us and do something special for RTBP. Especially since our anniversary is on a Saturday this year. RTBP has been very vague and a bit uncooperative in any talks I try to initiate so I'm shooting in the dark a bit. Did any fWSs attempt any 'grand showings' on the first anniversary after Dday or was it too soon?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wanted no cards, no flowers.. we went out to dinner because it was a Saturday night, but I made it clear that all it was to me was a trigger, nothing special. That it just made me feel stupid for being faithful, and that it just reminded me of how meaningless and empty our vows were to her. 

A 'grand showing' is like saying "hey, our marriage was special, then i took a crap on it when I got bored/tired/neglected/mlc/_____ , but now it's special again!". I loved you, then I hated you, now I love you again! 

Especially if like my case, the wayward spouse had multiple anniversaries where they were with the AP. Now it just reminds you of all the flowers, cards, dinners you bought while you were being cheated on. It doesn't make you want to run out and buy flowers and cards. Especially if like me, you bought sappy cards that professed love while your spouse bought humorous cards or generic ones with no message. That might trigger them to remember how cold it was, and how they wanted any sign of warmth in a card but got a slap in the face instead.

Mine was 6 months after the discovery of a 5 year LTA.. it was our 25th anniversary, so also reminded me that for 1/5th of our marriage, my wife wasn't even in it with me and I had no idea. 

So yea, too soon imho..


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> My husband txt me yesterday to say he's going out with the OW on Friday. Exactly 2 years ago to the day that I found out they were together last time and nearly 3 years since the first time.
> 
> I can't say I'm completely surprised. I was half expecting it, but it still hurts, even though we are now separated. I feel so humiliated and embarrassed all over again. Her and her husband are still living together but are divorcing.
> 
> He had the nerve to txt me and ask me how I was this morning, and to txt him if I need anything, he'll always be there if I need him!!
> Really? Still trying to cake eat! Not this time.
> 
> I just feel very sad!


DG, consider the source. All this shows is that you are 100,000x the person he is. You were the glue. Now he is unglued. They won't be together long.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



StarGazer101 said:


> DG I am so sorry to read your update, it is so awfully unfair and sad. I hope that you are ok in as much as you can be. ((hugs))
> 
> My own situation is only slightly better. At the weekend it emerged that Lister has continued to lie throughout our R, and his response to dealing with the situation was retaliation and (attempted) manipulation. I've learned enough to know that I deserve so much better, so I stood my ground, but I am in bits.


I read what Lister wrote but I didn't respond. I'm sure my response would have resulted in my banning. There is a huge difference in knowing what needs to be done and actually doing it. You can guess which side of that equation I think he is on.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> FG, don't do a grand showing if RTBP only seems interested in a quiet dinner. You'll be setting yourself up for hurt, and he may feel like you don't care about his wishes/feelings if you go ahead with something more flashy after he told you what he wanted. Like bfree says, it's going to be more painful for RTBP than anything.
> 
> GF and I have abandoned our old anniversary. New one is in 3+ months, and I'll be following her lead with plans.


Good idea on a new anniversary date. The only worse date for me other than D-day itself was our wedding anniversary.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



russell28 said:


> I wanted no cards, no flowers.. we went out to dinner because it was a Saturday night, but I made it clear that all it was to me was a trigger, nothing special. That it just made me feel stupid for being faithful, and that it just reminded me of how meaningless and empty our vows were to her.
> 
> A 'grand showing' is like saying "hey, our marriage was special, then i took a crap on it when I got bored/tired/neglected/mlc/_____ , but now it's special again!". I loved you, then I hated you, now I love you again!
> 
> Especially if like my case, the wayward spouse had multiple anniversaries where they were with the AP. Now it just reminds you of all the flowers, cards, dinners you bought while you were being cheated on. It doesn't make you want to run out and buy flowers and cards. Especially if like me, you bought sappy cards that professed love while your spouse bought humorous cards or generic ones with no message. That might trigger them to remember how cold it was, and how they wanted any sign of warmth in a card but got a slap in the face instead.
> 
> Mine was 6 months after the discovery of a 5 year LTA.. it was our 25th anniversary, so also reminded me that for 1/5th of our marriage, my wife wasn't even in it with me and I had no idea.
> 
> So yea, too soon imho..


Right there with you Russell.


----------



## Acabado

bfree said:


> I read what Lister wrote but I didn't respond. I'm sure my response would have resulted in my banning. There is a huge difference in knowing what needs to be done and actually doing it. You can guess which side of that equation I think he is on.


More thant this: you can always fail short about "what to do", it's human but he's perfectly aware about "what not to do" at any cost, he knows better.
Once again its proven that when it matters he will put himself, his wishes, his well being over hers and the marriage.


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> My husband txt me yesterday to say he's going out with the OW on Friday. Exactly 2 years ago to the day that I found out they were together last time and nearly 3 years since the first time.
> 
> I can't say I'm completely surprised. I was half expecting it, but it still hurts, even though we are now separated. I feel so humiliated and embarrassed all over again. Her and her husband are still living together but are divorcing.
> 
> He had the nerve to txt me and ask me how I was this morning, and to txt him if I need anything, he'll always be there if I need him!!
> Really? Still trying to cake eat! Not this time.
> 
> I just feel very sad!



DG,

I am so sorry, Honey. I wish I had some magical words that would make all of your pain go away. But, you know there aren't any magic words. I think, on some level, you always feared that your husband may still have unresolved feelings for his xAP. This is, unfortunately, why NC has got to be enforced. But, it is incumbent upon the WS to enforce those boundaries. A BS should never have to ask, plead, or demand that their WS do what is necessary to allow the BS to have enough faith in them and to feel secure enough to attempt reconciliation. I'd rather that B1 didn't even have to ask for what he needs. I want to give it to him, first. If he needs to ask, I'm feel like I'm letting him/us down. I try to anticipate things that might be a trigger for him and I try to avoid those situations. But, if I sense something is bothering B1 and I am truly at a loss as to what it is, I ask him. There have been times when B1 has tried to keep something to himself and not burden me with it. I've had to play the "total transparency card" with him. I tell him that transparency has to go both ways. I ask him not to spare me his pain. If he does that, then I am left feeling vulnerable and insecure trying to figure out what he's feeling. He and I, now, after almost 30 years of marriage have truly become one flesh, joined together.

DG, I don't think that a genuine reconciliation is impossible, but I do think it's very, very challenging. I do know that unless both spouses are 100% committed to the process that it can't be done. If your WS isn't going to make that kind of commitment to you, then as painful as it is, you need to move on, for your own well being. I think that his motives for texting you were not truly for your well-being. He may have even believed that he was concerned about you. I think that he was actually trying to ease his own guilty conscience. It wasn't your pain he was worrying about. It was his discomfort in knowing that he caused you pain. He KNOWs how wrong this is and he doesn't like the way it makes HIM feel. He wants YOU to make him feel OKAY about him betraying you, once again. Don't do it. If you haven't, already, I would have him served on Friday. 

Having said all that, I know that it's much easier said than done. I'm so sorry. FWIW, we're here for you. I think it's time for DG to reconcile her own precious heart. It's time to take care of you, now.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> My husband txt me yesterday to say he's going out with the OW on Friday. Exactly 2 years ago to the day that I found out they were together last time and nearly 3 years since the first time.
> 
> I can't say I'm completely surprised. I was half expecting it, but it still hurts, even though we are now separated. I feel so humiliated and embarrassed all over again. Her and her husband are still living together but are divorcing.
> 
> He had the nerve to txt me and ask me how I was this morning, and to txt him if I need anything, he'll always be there if I need him!!
> Really? Still trying to cake eat! Not this time.
> 
> I just feel very sad!


I wanted to "like" your post because of the "Not this time." But your sadness comes through to much and I can't "like" that.

Sweetheart, you know why you separated and you know it was the right choice, miso now than ever. You have been very strong and smart facing the reality that your husband is a cake eater and not a nice man because of it.

Did you text him back? With friends like you... always was supposed to be honoring you and your marriage. He doesn't appreciate what a promise is. He has no integrity. I'd ask him exactly what that offer means to him and if he would stand up in front of family and friends and speak those words if you were to set up the gathering. Would he say those words I front of God, if you are into God? Of course not. So why bother saying them at all? If he feels they alleviate his guilt he only demonstrates that he is good at lying to himself as well as everyone else. 

Like I said, no integrity.

I guess I can say that at least he told you and didn't let you hear it elsewhere. Now you can tell people and they can comfort you and remind you that you did the right thing by a guy that didn't deserve it and he had proven that to be the case beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Please try to remember that you have guts and integrity. He didn't choose her. He chose the easiest thing. He threw away everything for that path. You struggled to fix things. But you knew you had to send him a string message about your belief inyourself and your ability to leave someone who doesn't deserve you.

You have so much to be proud of. So much.


----------



## daisygirl 41

EI 
As usual you you are spot on. Once again he is trying to ease his guilty conscience, he apologises and says he's so sorry for hurting me like it's out of his control. He offers me help and support to make himself feel better. He wants to be friends, says he cares about me deeply! 
It's all mind games, all he's bothered about is himself. How sad it's taken me so long to get to this point. We never stood a chance.

Now I concentrate on me and my lovely kids. I have wonderfully supportive friends, I don't need him for anything. I don't care what he does any more. I know I've got some bad days ahead but I'll make it.
I just need to look to the future now.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Clipclop
Thank you for your kind words. You are right, he's taken the easy path, he didn't want to put in the hard work to fix us. Last time he was with her, it's lasted 3 weeks! I wonder why they think it's going to be different this time? 
He's still in complete denial about his actions. I just can't get my head around it. Oh well it's not my concern any more. It's over for good this time. I can hold my head up and know that I did everything I possibly could to save my marriage, he obviously didn't want it enough. I am not sorry we tried to reconcile, I'm just sorry we never made it.

Thank you all for your support


----------



## Forever Grateful

russell28 said:


> I wanted no cards, no flowers.. we went out to dinner because it was a Saturday night, but I made it clear that all it was to me was a trigger, nothing special. That it just made me feel stupid for being faithful, and that it just reminded me of how meaningless and empty our vows were to her.
> 
> A 'grand showing' is like saying "hey, our marriage was special, then i took a crap on it when I got bored/tired/neglected/mlc/_____ , but now it's special again!". I loved you, then I hated you, now I love you again!
> 
> Especially if like my case, the wayward spouse had multiple anniversaries where they were with the AP. Now it just reminds you of all the flowers, cards, dinners you bought while you were being cheated on. It doesn't make you want to run out and buy flowers and cards. Especially if like me, you bought sappy cards that professed love while your spouse bought humorous cards or generic ones with no message. That might trigger them to remember how cold it was, and how they wanted any sign of warmth in a card but got a slap in the face instead.
> 
> Mine was 6 months after the discovery of a 5 year LTA.. it was our 25th anniversary, so also reminded me that for 1/5th of our marriage, my wife wasn't even in it with me and I had no idea.
> 
> So yea, too soon imho..


I'm sorry Russell if I caused a trigger. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

I think you're right bfree and SP. As much as it hurts to say this, we probably will have to drop our old anniversary. I'm going to stick with just planning dinner for now though. He will hardly talk about it among other things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> I think you're right bfree and SP. As much as it hurts to say this, we probably will have to drop our old anniversary. I'm going to stick with just planning dinner for now though. He will hardly talk about it among other things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's hurting. I know just what that feels like. I'm so sorry for both of you. Have patience and allow him the time to heal.


----------



## Refuse to be played

user_zero said:


> I'm not married and I never was, so I have little experience about this.
> 
> I always thought married people celebrate the anniversary because of the meaning that special day has for them (for their spouses , their family). I think the question is after all the things that happened between you two , what that day means to you and RTBP. I think you should have a honest talk about this. I think the meaning of anniversary day is changed for you two, just based on the bold part.
> 
> so sorry for not being much of a help.





bfree said:


> I didn't reconcile, I divorced. But I can tell you that after D-day wedding anniversaries just don't mean the same thing as they did before. Speaking for myself and I suspect many other BS's celebrating a wedding anniversary after infidelity is a bit of a slap in the face. It's another insult on top of all the rest. It's a reminder that the old marriage is gone and the anniversary is more like a remembrance of a death than anything else. At the very least it's just a useless endeavor and waste of time. At least that's how I feel/felt. Others may be different. If rtbp is willing to go out to dinner then maybe that's all he can do right now. Anything else might be too much. In any case I wouldn't push him.





soulpotato said:


> FG, don't do a grand showing if RTBP only seems interested in a quiet dinner. You'll be setting yourself up for hurt, and he may feel like you don't care about his wishes/feelings if you go ahead with something more flashy after he told you what he wanted. Like bfree says, it's going to be more painful for RTBP than anything.
> 
> GF and I have abandoned our old anniversary. New one is in 3+ months, and I'll be following her lead with plans.





russell28 said:


> I wanted no cards, no flowers.. we went out to dinner because it was a Saturday night, but I made it clear that all it was to me was a trigger, nothing special. That it just made me feel stupid for being faithful, and that it just reminded me of how meaningless and empty our vows were to her.
> 
> A 'grand showing' is like saying "hey, our marriage was special, then i took a crap on it when I got bored/tired/neglected/mlc/_____ , but now it's special again!". I loved you, then I hated you, now I love you again!
> 
> Especially if like my case, the wayward spouse had multiple anniversaries where they were with the AP. Now it just reminds you of all the flowers, cards, dinners you bought while you were being cheated on. It doesn't make you want to run out and buy flowers and cards. Especially if like me, you bought sappy cards that professed love while your spouse bought humorous cards or generic ones with no message. That might trigger them to remember how cold it was, and how they wanted any sign of warmth in a card but got a slap in the face instead.
> 
> Mine was 6 months after the discovery of a 5 year LTA.. it was our 25th anniversary, so also reminded me that for 1/5th of our marriage, my wife wasn't even in it with me and I had no idea.
> 
> So yea, too soon imho..


What they said.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Forever Grateful said:


> One thread has me wondering, what did most people do on your first anniversary after Dday?
> 
> Ours is in two months and we usually made a big spectacle in the past. This year RTBP doesn't want to do much, so far all he has agreed to do is go out to dinner. I would like to plan out a bit more for us and do something special for RTBP. Especially since our anniversary is on a Saturday this year. RTBP has been very vague and a bit uncooperative in any talks I try to initiate so I'm shooting in the dark a bit. Did any fWSs attempt any 'grand showings' on the first anniversary after Dday or was it too soon?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To be perfectly frank...just like V-day I don't really give a sh!t about it right now. In the future? I don't know but for now I just don't really care. I call myself making an attempt with dinner. Not like I said Applebees or Fridays. I meant a really nice place. Talking about a new day to celebrate is a bit premature, I'm not sure if I even want to celebrate anything at all.

I see FG's problem is that while she isn't trying hurry me up, she is trying to fast track our R at times. She sees something working or have an a positive effect and then she just goes overboard piling it on. Case in point, Valentines day. I enjoyed what she did for it and so her mind just takes off a mile a second think of things. There is no magical thing or things she can do to make this all better quickly, I don't care how hard she tries there is no instant fix button for this. Thats the way she is, she wants to fix things and when she has a goal she puts her mind to it 200%. MC said more than once she shoots herself in the foot sometimes. You'd think she'd learned by now after shoot of a toe or two.


----------



## bfree

Trying to rush through reconciliation is no better than rugsweeping. It takes as long as it takes.


----------



## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> Trying to rush through reconciliation is no better than rugsweeping. It takes as long as it takes.


She's been told that but she can't help herself from going overboard sometimes. And then she gets distraught when I shut down as a result. Then she panics and presses a bit more I get annoyed, snap, and say something nasty to her, she gets hurt, and MC she gets a finger wag for her over zealousness and I get b!tched at for snapping. Rinse and repeat. Happened 4 times since we came back home from Xmas.


----------



## CantSitStill

Refuse to be played...I understand and get what you are saying. I'm sorry and sad for you because calvin feels the same way and yes you have the right to feel the way you do. Your wife and I did a ton of damage and I am not sure that that damage is repairable. Us WS's do live off of hope and then we also dwell on your bad days when you trigger. It is the rollercoaster that we all wish we never have had to deal with jn the first place. I just wanna say..I am sorry that I ever cheated and wish I could have a do over. I know that is not possible. It is the biggest thing I regret and yes I understand that I have to live with my bad choices. I pray and pray and I wait and I hope some day we could have a better relationship again. I know I really f-ed up everything. Sigh... again I am sorry you are going through this. You don't deserve it and neither does calvin. If the WS gives up hope tho what would happen then? I believe it would make it even harder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

CantSitStill said:


> Refuse to be played...I understand and get what you are saying. I'm sorry and sad for you because calvin feels the same way and yes you have the right to feel the way you do. Your wife and I did a ton of damage and I am not sure that that damage is repairable. Us WS's do live off of hope and then we also dwell on your bad days when you trigger. It is the rollercoaster that we all wish we never have had to deal with jn the first place. I just wanna say..I am sorry that I ever cheated and wish I could have a do over. I know that is not possible. It is the biggest thing I regret and yes I understand that I have to live with my bad choices. I pray and pray and I wait and I hope some day we could have a better relationship again. I know I really f-ed up everything. Sigh... again I am sorry you are going through this. You don't deserve it and neither does calvin. If the WS gives up hope tho what would happen then? I believe it would make it even harder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you CSS. This is exactly how I feel. This is the absolute worst thing I've ever done in my life. I know I have a tendency to push too much and most the time I don't realize I'm doing it at the time. The last thing I want is to put more stress on RTBP. I know I need to stop looking too far ahead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## owl6118

Forever Grateful said:


> I think you're right bfree and SP. As much as it hurts to say this, we probably will have to drop our old anniversary. I'm going to stick with just planning dinner for now though. He will hardly talk about it among other things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG, I am new to TAM, and I am neither a WS or a BS. But as a man and a husband I might be able to help you see this from your husband's point of view. 

So--your anniversary. Yes, it is dead. But I am also certain that what is really bothering RTBP, what is causing him to withdraw about this, is is that you don't seem to SEE that, TO GET IT, RIGHT AWAY, IMMEDIATELY, becuase its so d--m OBVIOUS.

RTBP is struggling to find the meaning in things. He is reevaluating everything in your relationship and struggling to figure out what it now means. And this is a process of logic and thinking as well as feeling.

So let's take a look at your anniversary, but instead of asking how he feels, ask " if I were him what would this mean to me now? What new meaning would I assign it?"

Put that way, it really is obvious. On your wedding day you made to RTBP the most important promises you ever made to him. They were to be binding for all time, as he considered his promises to you to be. Then, you broke your promises. In the aftermath he will never be able to think of the promises without the betrayal. The betrayal changed the meaning of the promises, forever. That is what the anniversary means now. It is ashes in his mouth.

I say thus not to beat you up, but in hopes that this will help you "get" something. I have the sense that you are often thinking/wondering/observing how RTBP is feeling. Instead, ask yourself what he is thinking. When you come to a place/date/event/whatever that worries you, like your anniversary, just ask yourself, " if I were in RTBP's shoes, what would this mean to me? What would I think about it?". And if you can think as he thinks--you will know immediately how he will feel. And knowing how he is likely to be feeling, you might also know what you can do to help him.

So for the anniversary, knowing what meaning he likely now assigns to it, what he will FEEL is grief. It will be a day of bereavement. Instead of asking him to tell you how he feels about it, you can say " I've thought hard about what this must mean to you now, and I am in anguish to have caused you this bereavement. I am so very sorry. Is there anything I can do to make it pass more easily?". Your anticipating and validating the new meaning of the day to him will be more healing that anything else. And it might let him give himself permission to enjoy a very quiet dinner out.

Give it a try, eh?


----------



## Headspin

Not read all the way through this but anyone have any idea of how many of the people reconciling have parted company as a percentage of all the reconciliations going on in this thread ?

Be interesting to know how many people are still together after a couple of years


----------



## russell28

Headspin said:


> Not read all the way through this but anyone have any idea of how many of the people reconciling have parted company as a percentage of all the reconciliations going on in this thread ?
> 
> Be interesting to know how many people are still together after a couple of years


10 months in.. still in R.. doing okay, still riding the emotional roller coaster.


----------



## CantSitStill

We are 2 yrs in R and still struggling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Forever Grateful said:


> Thank you CSS. This is exactly how I feel. This is the absolute worst thing I've ever done in my life. I know I have a tendency to push too much and most the time I don't realize I'm doing it at the time. The last thing I want is to put more stress on RTBP. I know I need to stop looking too far ahead.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FG, if I may be allowed to make a few suggestions.

Try to really focus on each and every day as it comes. At the end of the day when everything is done and you settle down with RTBP look him in the eyes and tell him that you not only appreciate him sticking by you but that you are thankful for THAT DAY and for everything you know he went through. See I think sometimes WS's forget that each and every hour during the day a thought of the betrayal crops into the BS's head. We don't put it there and we wish to God it didn't pop up but it did. FG, when you are at work handling some minor crisis RTBP is trying to push that thought out of his head. When you are at lunch eating that baloney and cheese sandwich RTBP is vigorously shaking his head to try to push those thoughts away. When you are checking out the clock waiting to leave for the day RTBP is desperately trying to make it to the end of the day without tearing up. When you are driving home looking forward to seeing RTBP's smiling face, he is struggling with anger trying to will himself into a better mood so that he won't snap at you when he sees you.

Now, let me ask you this. If you were RTBP would you rather hear "thank you so much for giving me this day to be with you" or would you rather hear "what are we going to do for our anniversary." See RTBP struggles all day every day and quite frankly its exhausting. His emotions are frayed from the moment he wakes up until sleep finally mercifully overtakes him. Its going to be that way for a little while until these thoughts start to lose their power. So you not only have to thank him FOR THAT DAY but you have to have extreme patience and allow things to take their natural course.


----------



## Acabado

Over four years here.
Very happy, pluggled into the marriage and deeply in love with my beatiful wife. And it's not a recent realization, i "knew" it more than two years ago that I toke the right choice for me, for our kids and for us when I commited to R.


----------



## soulpotato

I think we've "officially" been in R for 8 months or so. Still definitely bad spots and hard days or even weeks, but I see a lot of improvement from where we were a year ago. I see signs of healing happening in my partner and in our relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Bfree, thank you for that post. It should be a sticky. It describes what is really going on with the BS. I mean, I know what is going on but needed that reminder. I started to lose hope these past couple of days because calvin has had a huge trigger for the last few days. It gets hard to know what to do for him. So what I've done is be silent and let him vent it all out. Yes I feel I miss him and that I was losing him but for tonight, I have my calvin back. We are planning to go out tomorrow night. We have not gone out in about 5 months. We need to make time to enjoy eachother. Yes he may trigger tomorrow but I am thankful for having him tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

bfree said:


> FG, if I may be allowed to make a few suggestions.
> 
> Try to really focus on each and every day as it comes. At the end of the day when everything is done and you settle down with RTBP look him in the eyes and tell him that you not only appreciate him sticking by you but that you are thankful for THAT DAY and for everything you know he went through. See I think sometimes WS's forget that each and every hour during the day a thought of the betrayal crops into the BS's head. We don't put it there and we wish to God it didn't pop up but it did. FG, when you are at work handling some minor crisis RTBP is trying to push that thought out of his head. When you are at lunch eating that baloney and cheese sandwich RTBP is vigorously shaking his head to try to push those thoughts away. When you are checking out the clock waiting to leave for the day RTBP is desperately trying to make it to the end of the day without tearing up. When you are driving home looking forward to seeing RTBP's smiling face, he is struggling with anger trying to will himself into a better mood so that he won't snap at you when he sees you.
> 
> Now, let me ask you this. If you were RTBP would you rather hear "thank you so much for giving me this day to be with you" or would you rather hear "what are we going to do for our anniversary." See RTBP struggles all day every day and quite frankly its exhausting. His emotions are frayed from the moment he wakes up until sleep finally mercifully overtakes him. Its going to be that way for a little while until these thoughts start to lose their power. So you not only have to thank him FOR THAT DAY but you have to have extreme patience and allow things to take their natural course.


Excellent!

I'd add only one thing. Trust. It is an affair victim too. And how can you regain trust? The BS's brain does crazy gyrations trying to decide if and how far the WS can be trusted.

I don't know how trust can be restored. Possibly it simply just takes time. But memory comes into play. The BS has trusted before and look at what happened.

The worst thing about it all is that remorse can be genuine and the WS can really intend to never cheat again. But if those issues pop up again and there is an occasion where... but I don't have to explain. If we could only solve these problems, we could save many marriages and hurry the others to dissolution because we'd know that in those cases reconciliation isn't going to work.

Perhaps I'm just a bit down as some marriages I've been rooting for seem to be coming apart.


----------



## calvin

Bad trigger yesterday morning til a little before CSS got home today,may have seemed
Like three days to CSS.
We've been out but it has been around three months,70 inches of snow and highs
In the -0s will do that,we do need to go out more,work is important but not as 
Important as us.
Going back to MC soon,the people CSS's company hired should be up to speed in a couple weeks.
Its nice having her home earlier,she's not as tired and we have more time together.
It helps.
Good post bfree,I have to pretend nothing is bothering me sometimes,its hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Trust issues are hell.

I think I have been able to win back as much of my partner's trust as I have because she can feel my emotional presence in our relationship now whereas before I was often MIA. She knows me well and can feel it when I am there. Now I am looking straight at her, and not turning away or distracting myself with other people or things. I am right there in MC with her and she can see the love, compassion, and tears in my eyes. She can see that I'm giving it all I've got.

It is tough. But it's all worth it when it's for her. She has really expanded my emotional repertoire. I would not be the SP I am now if I had not met her, that's for sure. I wonder if I would have ever known what it was like to really connect authentically and deeply with another person if I had not met her. Because she is the only person I have ever been able to do that with. I can never repay her for the many gifts she has given me.


----------



## jupiter13

2 1/2 years still struggling even if he doesn't think so...


----------



## Philat

Headspin said:


> Not read all the way through this but anyone have any idea of how many of the people reconciling have parted company as a percentage of all the reconciliations going on in this thread ?
> 
> Be interesting to know how many people are still together after a couple of years


Original DDay 2006, following few years with ups and downs as a result, breakthrough last year, now in a good place. Still together.


----------



## calvin

Two years and one month,getting there and I know things will be fine.
Getting there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

*Over 25 years of R
We have a very good life*


----------



## Refuse to be played

We've had it pointed out to us (mostly me) in MC that we've stopped 'dating' for the past couple of months. Between the weather, her job, my classes, and the timing we just haven't go out really. We were doing a lot better earlier when we went out often. Haven't been feeling good lately so I haven't want to do things. Going to make an effort to change that this weekend, see how that goes.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> She's been told that but she can't help herself from going overboard sometimes. And then she gets distraught when I shut down as a result. Then she panics and presses a bit more I get annoyed, snap, and say something nasty to her, she gets hurt, and MC she gets a finger wag for her over zealousness and I get b!tched at for snapping. Rinse and repeat. Happened 4 times since we came back home from Xmas.


Has she had any IC to help her learn to deal with her control freakishness? She isn't overzealous, she is trying to control. It is a fear response. Is she controlling in other areas of life?

I guess all I could recommend is to ask her to trust you to do the right thing by your relationship. Does she believe in you? You are still there. You want to heal. You dint want to hurt her but her desperation forces you to defend yourself from being forced to support her rather than tend to your own wounds. Her attempt to control puts her at the center, which is selfish. 

Did she have an insecure childhood?


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Acabado said:


> Over four years here.
> Very happy, pluggled into the marriage and deeply in love with my beatiful wife. And it's not a recent realization, i "knew" it more than two years ago that I toke the right choice for me, for our kids and for us when I commited to R.


Don't you just love auto-correct?


----------



## daisygirl 41

Would have been 2 years in R this month, sadly it wasn't to be.
He's back with the Ow. Who knows what the future holds.
Very sad this evening.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



sidney2718 said:


> Excellent!
> 
> The worst thing about it all is that remorse can be genuine and the WS can really intend to never cheat again. But if those issues pop up again and there is an occasion where... but I don't have to explain. If we could only solve these problems, we could save many marriages and hurry the others to dissolution because we'd know that in those cases reconciliation isn't going to work.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just a bit down as some marriages I've been rooting for seem to be coming apart.


When you see the behaviors that allowed an affair to occur go away you can learn to trust. Part of the triggers aren't just situations that remind you of a pain you want to avoid for the rest of your life. The WS' responses to almost anything that demonstrates an ability to lie, justify, act selfishly, feel entitled... probably more - those things hit the hardest because they mean the partner still has the characteristics of a cheater even if they think they have changed.

That is harder for them to understand because onthe surface they believe they have fixed themselves. But you know they haven't and they are frustrated that you don't fully believe their assessment of their progress. They really can't see it even when it is pointed out. 

When the light finally goes on, I think trust can take hold not as situational but as a rule.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Good post bfree,I have to pretend nothing is bothering me sometimes,its hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is that wise? Doesn't that contribute to blow ups?


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> Trust issues are hell.
> 
> I think I have been able to win back as much of my partner's trust as I have because she can feel my emotional presence in our relationship now whereas before I was often MIA. She knows me well and can feel it when I am there. Now I am looking straight at her, and not turning away or distracting myself with other people or things. I am right there in MC with her and she can see the love, compassion, and tears in my eyes. She can see that I'm giving it all I've got.


Didn't you say you are BPD? As I understand it, people with ADHD or ADD can also exhibit a lack of presence. Then after enough of that they lose connection. I mean, it can happen to anyone but I think certain brains are more prone to it.

How have you gotten yourself to be able to be present? Do you ever worry that when the high emotions subside you will tune out again? Sometimes I think the drama can keep someone focused and when the drama is gone the attention wander.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> Would have been 2 years in R this month, sadly it wasn't to be.
> He's back with the Ow. Who knows what the future holds.
> Very sad this evening.


Chin up, DG. Know that there are better days ahead. Spring is coming. That will help so many people. Grey gloom is so depressing. If you have a fireplace I recommend letting one burn full time. For me at least, it helps. Even better if I have some peat. A lot of people don't care for it but I do.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*

.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*

.


----------



## daisygirl 41

But just to add....this time 2 years ago when I found out about them, I was curled up in a ball, sobbing on my bedroom floor, NSweet saved my life that day. Tonight, he's gone on a date with her, he'll I'm anxious, yes I've cried, but I've just cooked my daughter and her sleepover mates a ton of pizza and I'm out the door for a couple of glasses of wine with friends! &#55357;&#56842;


----------



## daisygirl 41

Thanks Clipclop, for some reason I can't 'like' your post x


----------



## Philat

daisygirl 41 said:


> But just to add....this time 2 years ago when I found out about them, I was curled up in a ball, sobbing on my bedroom floor, NSweet saved my life that day. Tonight, he's gone on a date with her, he'll I'm anxious, yes I've cried, but I've just cooked my daughter and her sleepover mates a ton of pizza and I'm out the door for a couple of glasses of wine with friends! ��


Wishing you all the best, DG.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> Thanks Clipclop, for some reason I can't 'like' your post x


You are welcome. 

You have come a long way! Acceptance is rough but sometimes when you quit struggling you escape what has bound you. What was that plant in Harry Potter?


----------



## Refuse to be played

clipclop2 said:


> Has she had any IC to help her learn to deal with her control freakishness? She isn't overzealous, she is trying to control. It is a fear response. Is she controlling in other areas of life?
> 
> I guess all I could recommend is to ask her to trust you to do the right thing by your relationship. Does she believe in you? You are still there. You want to heal. You dint want to hurt her but her desperation forces you to defend yourself from being forced to support her rather than tend to your own wounds. Her attempt to control plus her at the center, which is selfish.
> 
> Did she have an insecure childhood?


Even on her worst day she isn't controlling at all, the opposite actually. She is in IC right now and main thing she has to improve about herself is that she can be so goddamned conflict avoidant. She actually prefers when I take the lead. I just been lacking the motivation to do so recently.

She was very insure as a child and teen coming up. Had weight issues and some elements of mid child syndrome. She had very loving parents but the have admitted to being a bit preoccupied with careers. Her childhood was a hell of a lot better then mines though.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> We've had it pointed out to us (mostly me) in MC that we've stopped 'dating' for the past couple of months. Between the weather, her job, my classes, and the timing we just haven't go out really. We were doing a lot better earlier when we went out often. Haven't been feeling good lately so I haven't want to do things. Going to make an effort to change that this weekend, see how that goes.


 Same here,we are going out tonight though,not too late,have to work tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

Being conflict avoidant is also about control, it just looks different. The point is to control a situation so that you don't have to face what scares you. I think conflict avoidant people are the worst though because they end up harboring secret resentments. Those always come out in a destructive way.

Remember, if you refuse to lead she has to take responsibility. She can't blame you for doing the wrong thing but she can blame you for leaving her on her own to figure things out. It can be scary for her and can also cause that panic you see. When you don't lead and what she tries doesn't achieve the result she had hoped she had no one too blame but herself. I don't think avoidant people are used to handling that feeling.

When you said middle child syndrome I thought of Jan in the Brady Bunch movie and hoped your wife wouldn't knock off a 7-11.


----------



## calvin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Would have been 2 years in R this month, sadly it wasn't to be.
> He's back with the Ow. Who knows what the future holds.
> Very sad this evening.


Sorry dg,his loss,you can do way better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Same here,we are going out tonight though,not too late,have to work tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You two have fun. Bring back good news, this thread has been a bit gloomy.


----------



## EI

daisygirl 41 said:


> But just to add....this time 2 years ago when I found out about them, I was curled up in a ball, sobbing on my bedroom floor, NSweet saved my life that day. Tonight, he's gone on a date with her, he'll I'm anxious, yes I've cried, but I've just cooked my daughter and her sleepover mates a ton of pizza and I'm out the door for a couple of glasses of wine with friends! ��



I'm sending you a big (((*HUG*))) with all of the prayers, good thoughts, best wishes, and positive energy that I have. 

We all love you, DG. I'm so sorry that you're hurting, right now.


----------



## soulpotato

clipclop2 said:


> Didn't you say you are BPD? As I understand it, people with ADHD or ADD can also exhibit a lack of presence. Then after enough of that they lose connection. I mean, it can happen to anyone but I think certain brains are more prone to it.
> 
> How have you gotten yourself to be able to be present? Do you ever worry that when the high emotions subside you will tune out again? Sometimes I think the drama can keep someone focused and when the drama is gone the attention wander.


Yep, I have BPD. I didn't have much real connection in the first place, not even to my own feelings,my own self. It's only now that I am learning how to really do it. Before, I was always mindful of keeping something between me and the other person, ready to pull the plug on connectivity to my feelings if things got too uncomfortable, and being unwilling to completely trust all of myself in any relationship. Not even my partner had all of me - I held myself back before.

Hmm, it's a lot more complicated than that. I don't like drama, per se, I like intense connections/feelings (different from authentic/full connections and feelings -kind of like taking drugs for a high instead of getting a high in a healthy way). Which I guess is the same thing as drama to a lot of people, but I wasn't present for our fights, either so it's not just high emotion that was required). I emotionally withdrew even more at those times, and would just dissociate completely during the worst ones. 

I have managed to become present through therapy and DBT. Being mindful, tolerating distress, and above all, allowing myself to be OPEN and VULNERABLE. Two things that were unthinkable in my world before. It was VERY hard at first, because I felt panicky and threatened a lot of the time. But I communicated those feelings to my partner as they came up, and somehow I gritted my teeth and pushed through it until it wasn't that bad anymore.

The other really key piece is that I have been learning about how to have a successful and healthy relationship, and what needs to be present and absent for that to happen. And I have been able to shift my behavior towards being more constructive and nurturing than destructive. Which, of course, also helps my partner to trust me.

We have had plenty of "non-drama" times over the past year, and my attention has not gone anywhere. The issue before was that I had poor boundaries and was looking for need-fulfillment and validation from wherever I could get it, and communicating and coping very poorly all the while. I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg, but I think that generally gets the heart of it across. I hope, at least. 

I'm not worried I'll disconnect or do the same things I did before.  I'm not the same anymore, and I'll keep pursuing these changes and taking care not to make bad decisions.


----------



## bfree

Wow SP, I'm amazed at how much you've grown just since I started to know you here on TAM. The only way to describe it is "you've elevated."


----------



## Forever Grateful

clipclop2 said:


> Being conflict avoidant is also about control, it just looks different. The point is to control a situation so that you don't have to face what scares you. I think conflict avoidant people are the worst though because they end up harboring secret resentments. Those always come out in a destructive way.
> 
> Remember, if you refuse to lead she has to take responsibility. She can't blame you for doing the wrong thing but she can blame you for leaving her on her own to figure things out. It can be scary for her and can also cause that panic you see. When you don't lead and what she tries doesn't achieve the result she had hoped she had no one too blame but herself. I don't think avoidant people are used to handling that feeling.
> 
> When you said middle child syndrome I thought of Jan in the Brady Bunch movie and hoped your wife wouldn't knock off a 7-11.


I don't fear having responsibility. Early on during our R he was very vocal about what he desired and what was needed. And I was more than happy to follow through on it. But recently it become clear during one of his low points that he was beginning to check out. He stopped communicating, stop wanting to spend as much time together, coming off as apathetic to everything. Damn straight I'm afraid. Not of responsibility but losing my husband. I wanted to do something to make it better . I wanted to show him that I am here for him, that I love him, and that I am and forever will be sorry for what I've done. But like this site says it's actions not just works. Without his input I'm in the dark. I was desperate, still am actually, to save my relationship with RTBP. When I did something and got a positive response, I jumped on it and pushed it. I now see I was causing more harm than good. I've been rein myself back a bit and let our interactions flow more naturally.

Also RTBP seems to be coming around. I don't yet, still too early to tell. But I do know that I have a date night to get ready for. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

daisygirl 41 said:


> Would have been 2 years in R this month, sadly it wasn't to be.
> He's back with the Ow. Who knows what the future holds.
> Very sad this evening.


I'm sorry. That's awful.


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Wow SP, I'm amazed at how much you've grown just since I started to know you here on TAM. The only way to describe it is "you've elevated."


 She has,I'm impressed and I've been following her thread,I'm learning a few things.
Good job SP!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Not going out tonight,I smashed my thumb and index finger at work but I did go to
KFC and Dairy Queen for the fam.
We'll go get steaks tomorrow,I could really go for a New York stip from this place
we like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Thank you, bfree and calvin.  I'm very happy to hear that you both feel that way.


----------



## soulpotato

LOL, bfree and calvin, I just read my post and both of your posts to DS and she said that due to progress, she is going to give me the title upgrade of "*supreme* potato" for the evening (the bolding is at her insistence). Haha, guys!


----------



## calvin

CSS starts her new shift next week,she'll be home earlier and that's great for both
of us,it also means we can go back to counseling now.
I feel we need a little more,there are a few unresolved issues we need to take
care of yet.
We need a little more help and we both know it.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

FG, I wanted to say earlier that I knew that your behavior was not from really wanting to push RTBP or from selfishness, but because of insecurity, fear, and desperation. I totally understand, I was in that place myself earlier last year. You love him, you don't want to lose him. When you feel them slipping away, it is hard not to try to hold on tighter and be all over them.

I believe you guys will make it through to the other side of this, that you will be both be able to heal and rebuild. Hang in there, both of you. 

RTBP, it is awesome that you are taking FG out on a date.  I am sorry to hear that you're not feeling well, though.


----------



## calvin

soulpotato said:


> FG, I wanted to say earlier that I knew that your behavior was not from really wanting to push RTBP or from selfishness, but because of insecurity, fear, and desperation. I totally understand, I was in that place myself earlier last year. You love him, you don't want to lose him. When you feel them slipping away, it is hard not to try to hold on tighter and be all over them.
> 
> I believe you guys will make it through to the other side of this, that you will be both be able to heal and rebuild. Hang in there, both of you.
> 
> RTBP, it is awesome that you are taking FG out on a date.  I am sorry to hear that you're not feeling well, though.


 It kinda gets to me when I see former wayward spouses who are remorseful as hell worry about
losing their spouse.
They are scared and worried,I've seen it in CSS's eyes and it just makes me feel bad for them.
Does that make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Compassion is a good thing,I know I need some shown to me once in awhile and I
get it from CSS.
I'm tired and I'm babbling.
Goodnight folks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> Yep, I have BPD. I didn't have much real connection in the first place, not even to my own feelings,my own self. It's only now that I am learning how to really do it. Before, I was always mindful of keeping something between me and the other person, ready to pull the plug on connectivity to my feelings if things got too uncomfortable, and being unwilling to completely trust all of myself in any relationship. Not even my partner had all of me - I held myself back before.
> .


Are you sure you are BPD? Seems to me you just needed to add some new tools to your coping skills. Your changes have been remarkable.

I guess the difference between ADHD is attention wanders rather than always being ready too cut and run. But I know a lot of people who are afraid of intimacy that are not BPD so I really wonder if your diagnosis is correct.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> I don't fear having responsibility.... Without his input I'm in the dark. I was desperate, still am actually, to save my relationship with RTBP. When I did something and got a positive response, I jumped on it and pushed it. I now see I was causing more harm than good. I've been rein myself back a bit and let our interactions flow more naturally.
> 
> Also RTBP seems to be coming around. I don't yet, still too early to tell. But I do know that I have a date night to get ready for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How long have you been married? If it has been for a whole at least some of what he needs should already be known to you if you know him at all.

The rest I suppose is trial and error. Bit if you think about it, trying to use the same thing over and over again shows a lack of effort. 

You are right about being more natural. You can't control him. 

Good luck. I do think you are afraid to take responsibility for figuring it out but I think you are really trying so you are still in learning mode.

I'm assuming you have read up on all this stuff. Patience. Trust him.


----------



## CantSitStill

Sometimes I have no idea what to do when calvin triggers. I have been pretty much being patient and waiting it out instead of reacting. I let him know that I understand he needs time to heal but I no longer shut myself down or try too hard. What I mean is...I used to try to hug him or beg him and I found he has times he just needs alone time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I have read a lot but I also know that all people are different and have different needs. The thing to do is learn more about your spouse and how they feel and what triggers them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I'm excited. . We are going out tonight. I'm finally feeling good and not so tired from work. I was really getting depressed all winter. I went through a lot of knee pain and had a hell of A time getting used to a full time job. Now I feel like I should. Feeling blessed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

My feeling crappy after work every day was hard on calvin on top of everything else with working on our reconciliation. Now that I have a better shift, it is time for a bit of counseling again. Not every week but maybe once a month.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

I hate winter. I hate cold weather. I hate days without sunshine. I hate days that are gray all day long. I hate ice. I'm really starting to hate snow. I hate trees without leaves. I hate dead grass. I hate the quiet and the lonely feelings that winter evokes in me. 

But:

I love B1! 

I love our children!

I love our grandson!

I love our son-in-law!

I love our sons' girlfriends!

I love my dog, Teddy!

I love my cat, Lilly!

Just for today, I will focus on who I love, and I will be grateful that, although, I may not have everything I want, I have more than enough to meet my needs. Just for today, I will choose to be happy. Only 12 more days 'till Spring!


----------



## As'laDain

reconciliation:

that point where i am able to love my spouse as if the affair never even happened. the point where i am so confident in "us" and trust her so much that i no longer feel suspicious.

the point where i think about making her smile because i love her.

the point where i go all day thinking about how i can enjoy my time with her. 

the point where i love life and there is no looking back because i have never been happier.

its the point where we should have been all along.


----------



## Brokenshadow

As'laDain said:


> reconciliation:
> 
> that point where i am able to love my spouse as if the affair never even happened. the point where i am so confident in "us" and trust her so much that i no longer feel suspicious.
> 
> the point where i think about making her smile because i love her.
> 
> the point where i go all day thinking about how i can enjoy my time with her.
> 
> the point where i love life and there is no looking back because i have never been happier.
> 
> its the point where we should have been all along.


That's awesome, congrats! I envy you, I'm hoping that I'll find myself at that point someday. Nearly a year out, and I'm not even close.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

clipclop2 said:


> Are you sure you are BPD? Seems to me you just needed to add some new tools to your coping skills. Your changes have been remarkable.
> 
> I guess the difference between ADHD is attention wanders rather than always being ready too cut and run. But I know a lot of people who are afraid of intimacy that are not BPD so I really wonder if your diagnosis is correct.


As sure as one can be, I guess! I had never heard of it until someone close to me tried to tell me years ago. Since then, several qualified professionals have told me that I have BPD. Granted, I'm very high-functioning, and my behaviors have become less severe over time. Thank you very much for the compliments, though. 

I have to credit my partner quite a lot. When we met a decade ago, I was a real mess. But she gave me love, acceptance, and a far safer and more stable place than I had ever known. Since meeting her, I started to improve, and finally was able to seek therapy and really start working on myself and getting a handle on the BPD.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



CantSitStill said:


> Sometimes I have no idea what to do when calvin triggers. I have been pretty much being patient and waiting it out instead of reacting. I let him know that I understand he needs time to heal but I no longer shut myself down or try too hard. What I mean is...I used to try to hug him or beg him and I found he has times he just needs alone time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes though, Calvin's triggers are Calvin's issues. 

This is what is so difficult. All of the insecurities that were always there get multiplied and you become responsible for everything.

Howmany years does it take before you are able to tell them that they have to own their stuff?

Am I not correct that you didn't have a physical affair?


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> As sure as one can be, I guess! I had never heard of it until someone close to me tried to tell me years ago. Since then, several qualified professionals have told me that I have BPD. Granted, I'm very high-functioning, and my behaviors have become less severe over time. Thank you very much for the compliments, though.
> 
> I have to credit my partner quite a lot. When we met a decade ago, I was a real mess. But she gave me love, accepance, and a far safer and more stable place than I had ever known. Since meeting her, I started to improve, and finally was able to seek therapy and really start working on myself and getting a handle on the BPD.


I'm not so sure. You may have needed a reason but you did this yourself. Don't forget that. Give yourself credit.


----------



## calvin

clipclop2 said:


> Sometimes though, Calvin's triggers are Calvin's issues.
> 
> This is what is so difficult. All of the insecurities that were always there get multiplied and you become responsible for everything.
> 
> Howmany years does it take before you are able to tell them that they have to own their stuff?
> 
> Am I not correct that you didn't have a physical affair?


Physical...ish.
They met a few times and kissed and huged.
His texting and calling for a year to rub it in,stting up fights and then running from them pissed me off to know end.
Threats to my wife and family and more,I finally fixed his fvcking wagon and he has been quiet for four months now.
Sure I had/have issues,we all do.
Her affair did a huge number to my head.
Things are getting better,especially since I made him stop his crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

A twice convicted felon,he broke up a few other families,moved into the womens
houses,by the time these woman saw the front he was putting on it was too late.
He tried the same with me,he thought he was Billy Bad Ass til he had to deal with me.
Telling me he could be with my wife if he wanted,for me to mind my own bussines...really?
I hit back.
Insecure? No I'm not,I'm very capable and I do not doubt myself much at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'm the past I have heard thing from CSS like..why do you love me? I'm not pretty,every thing we own
came from you,I'm not very smart.....and more.
I reasured her as much as I could,everything we have is ours,told her she was pretty,tried like hell
to get her to believe in herself,told her I loved her because she was one of a kind and mine.
I'm not insecure,her affair fvcked me up that bad,now after two years things still
Improve but its the hardest thing I've ever been through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Had to leave the resturant,CSS got sick,doubt it was the food,I ate it also.
She's in bed.
We'll try again next weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> FG, I wanted to say earlier that I knew that your behavior was not from really wanting to push RTBP or from selfishness, but because of insecurity, fear, and desperation. I totally understand, I was in that place myself earlier last year. You love him, you don't want to lose him. When you feel them slipping away, it is hard not to try to hold on tighter and be all over them.
> 
> I believe you guys will make it through to the other side of this, that you will be both be able to heal and rebuild. Hang in there, both of you.
> 
> RTBP, it is awesome that you are taking FG out on a date.  I am sorry to hear that you're not feeling well, though.


Thanks SP!  I figured you'd might be one of the few that understand the craziness that is me. 

Thanks also for the vote of confidence. It's been a little rough lately so its good to hear things like that. I'm hanging in there alright, nowhere near giving up.

And yes he is awesome! We just went to dinner and saw Robocop but we had a great time. Tonight we're going to get drinks and go to a hookah bar. I'm so glad he is trying again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> I'm the past I have heard thing from CSS like..why do you love me? I'm not pretty,every thing we own
> came from you,I'm not very smart.....and more.
> I reasured her as much as I could,everything we have is ours,told her she was pretty,tried like hell
> to get her to believe in herself,told her I loved her because she was one of a kind and mine.
> I'm not insecure,her affair fvcked me up that bad,now after two years things still
> Improve but its the hardest thing I've ever been through.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I use to ask RTBP things like that too occasionally even before all this. He use to reassure me like that too, it's great that you did. I'm sorry you're still hurting but I glad they have improved. Wish you and CSS the best!

Oh and sorry your dinner was cut short. I hope she feels better soon!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> I use to ask RTBP things like that too occasionally even before all this. He use to reassure me like that too, it's great that you did. I'm sorry you're still hurting but I glad they have improved. Wish you and CSS the best!
> 
> Oh and sorry your dinner was cut short. I hope she feels better soon!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 CSS had a messed up up upbringing,we have been leaning on eachother.
I know it will be good,its hard yeah but we all need to show and be shown that
one big screw up does not define who we are.
Now that she'll be getting home from work earlier there will be more time to attend
to a few things we been needing to do.
I think the jack and coke got to her.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

clipclop2 said:


> How long have you been married? If it has been for a whole at least some of what he needs should already be known to you if you know him at all.
> 
> The rest I suppose is trial and error. Bit if you think about it, trying to use the same thing over and over again shows a lack of effort.
> 
> You are right about being more natural. You can't control him.
> 
> Good luck. I do think you are afraid to take responsibility for figuring it out but I think you are really trying so you are still in learning mode.
> 
> I'm assuming you have read up on all this stuff. Patience. Trust him.


We'll be married 5 years this May. Yes I do know my husband very well. I'm not exaggerating when I say he is my best friend and the most important person in my life. The problem is he hasn't been himself. Not really. He sometimes seriously downplays how he is feeling to everyone. Things we normally enjoy he is lukewarm to. He doesn't socialize with friends as much. He didn't want to go out much, with or without me. Didn't get involved with his hobbies as much. He stopped really contributing in MC. So yes, it did become a bit of trial and error for a few weeks.

I feel I am not afraid but I thank you none the less. I've done the readings, if there is anything outside of the usual that is suggested on TAM I'm all ears. I know I have to be more patient and let things flow as they will. Both our MC and my IC have said so. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

EI said:


> I hate winter. I hate cold weather. I hate days without sunshine. I hate days that are gray all day long. I hate ice. I'm really starting to hate snow. I hate trees without leaves. I hate dead grass. I hate the quiet and the lonely feelings that winter evokes in me.
> 
> But:
> 
> I love B1!
> 
> I love our children!
> 
> I love our grandson!
> 
> I love our son-in-law!
> 
> I love our sons' girlfriends!
> 
> I love my dog, Teddy!
> 
> I love my cat, Lilly!
> 
> Just for today, I will focus on who I love, and I will be grateful that, although, I may not have everything I want, I have more than enough to meet my needs. Just for today, I will choose to be happy. Only 12 more days 'till Spring!


Absolutely one of your better posts, EI, I like it - maybe because of brevity

You included everyone around you which is the most important thing to appreciate. Next time, you may even love the weather and surroundings too, who knows  - the fact is, you can't change it, so you might as well love it for what it is.

Something to think about: Without winter, would you appreciate summer? Without the dead grass, would you love the living plants and green grass? Without the gray days, would you appreciate the sunny days just as much?

Well, easy for me to say - we have beautifull weather here, signs of spring


----------



## bfree

EI said:


> I hate winter. I hate cold weather. I hate days without sunshine. I hate days that are gray all day long. I hate ice. I'm really starting to hate snow. I hate trees without leaves. I hate dead grass. I hate the quiet and the lonely feelings that winter evokes in me.
> 
> But:
> 
> I love B1!
> 
> I love our children!
> 
> I love our grandson!
> 
> I love our son-in-law!
> 
> I love our sons' girlfriends!
> 
> I love my dog, Teddy!
> 
> I love my cat, Lilly!
> 
> Just for today, I will focus on who I love, and I will be grateful that, although, I may not have everything I want, I have more than enough to meet my needs. Just for today, I will choose to be happy. Only 12 more days 'till Spring!


You know what I don't see in your list?

This:

I love myself!

Keep working on that okay?


----------



## happyman64

bfree said:


> You know what I don't see in your list?
> 
> This:
> 
> I love myself!
> 
> Keep working on that okay?


Good catch Bfree and you are 100% right....


----------



## cpacan

happyman64 said:


> Good catch Bfree and you are 100% right....


Indeed, as always


----------



## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Thanks SP!  I figured you'd might be one of the few that understand the craziness that is me.
> 
> Thanks also for the vote of confidence. It's been a little rough lately so its good to hear things like that. I'm hanging in there alright, nowhere near giving up.
> 
> And yes he is awesome! We just went to dinner and saw Robocop but we had a great time. Tonight we're going to get drinks and go to a hookah bar. I'm so glad he is trying again!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, totally get it.  

You're welcome. Keep believing in each other and hanging on.  You have been doing well, FG, and I'm sure RTBP sees your efforts. I know there are days that it's really tough. There are going to be mistakes, setbacks, and things that just don't end up being what you were aiming for - that's inevitable. But try not to get too discouraged or down on yourself.

The date nights are definitely important. You need little breaks from the tough stuff, after all.

Aww, we had wanted to see Robocop, too! Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Had a good time with FG this weekend. Her first time at a hookah bar, she doesn't like smoking but it's cool she tried. Going to try and keep it going on the weekends.

Oh and RoboCop was stupid, I liked the original more....


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Physical...ish.
> They met a few times and kissed and huged.
> His texting and calling for a year to rub it in,stting up fights and then running from them pissed me off to know end.
> Threats to my wife and family and more,I finally fixed his fvcking wagon and he has been quiet for four months now.
> Sure I had/have issues,we all do.
> Her affair did a huge number to my head.
> Things are getting better,especially since I made him stop his crap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seems like he really did it to you. He baited and tormented. She invited him into your lives but TRY to be fair that this criminal acts on his own. He is a horrible person. Psychopath? Maybe. Did you try to find his parole officer?

Just remember that a guy like that can never have his wagon truly fixed. Stay safe.

I know you know all this stuff. She invited a predator into your lives and you are angry at her for it. Seems he wasn't actually trolling for her though. He was trolling for someone like you. Very weird if you think about it. He used her to find you and she had no clue.

What CSS did was wrong. But there is no way she could have foreseen this. 

I guess because the guy challenges you as a man, not even really over your mate, it hit you especially hard. The guy is definitely a psycho. 

Any idea who he is tormenting now? Bet they could use some support.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> I'm the past I have heard thing from CSS like..why do you love me? I'm not pretty,every thing we own
> came from you,I'm not very smart.....and more.
> I reasured her as much as I could,everything we have is ours,told her she was pretty,tried like hell
> to get her to believe in herself,told her I loved her because she was one of a kind and mine.
> I'm not insecure,her affair fvcked me up that bad,now after two years things still
> Improve but its the hardest thing I've ever been through.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get that, I really do. 

If CSS still says those kinds of things to you I would worry. 

CSS, have you worked toward bringing more to the table? If you feel bad about that area you can certainly do something about it. Material stuff is easy to come by. The harder part is building up your self concept. But, knocking one thing of the list while you are doing the other is helpful.

I believe you went back to work. How it's that going? Do you feel it will help you contribute and help your self esteem? Do you like the work?

Dang. What a Law & Order episode you guys have lived through! Maybe write out up and submit it to a show. You can embellish where it feels the best. More than one way to deal with this. Humiliate the jerk where he won't even know about it. Just use his name or a reference to him that is clear and let us know when it is on. 

If only, eh?


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Had to leave the resturant,CSS got sick,doubt it was the food,I ate it also.
> She's in bed.
> We'll try again next weekend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hope she is feeling better.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> We'll be married 5 years this May. Yes I do know my husband very well. I'm not exaggerating when I say he is my best friend and the most important person in my life. The problem is he hasn't been himself. Not really. He sometimes seriously downplays how he is feeling to everyone. Things we normally enjoy he is lukewarm to. He doesn't socialize with friends as much. He didn't want to go out much, with or without me. Didn't get involved with his hobbies as much. He stopped really contributing in MC. So yes, it did become a bit of trial and error for a few weeks.
> 
> I feel I am not afraid but I thank you none the less. I've done the readings, if there is anything outside of the usual that is suggested on TAM I'm all ears. I know I have to be more patient and let things flow as they will. Both our MC and my IC have said so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like he is grieving.

When all the immediate high emotions are calm, when it is quiet, that's when some people really start to process and it can really get you down. Yeah, I think if you can back off and support him without bagging him, he will come around. Give him time. Lots of it. Could be months. 

I had a very depressive response to something recently and all I knew is that I wasn't me. Turns out I was grieving something I didn't expect to grieve since it seemed like I was dealing with it so well originally. I was confused and I know myself really well. Guess I knowmyself a little better now for the experience!

Any chance he would go for a bit of a pick me up? Even vitamin B shots could help. Exercise is another non-drug option but who feels like exercising when you are depressed? 

Funny idea. Start exercising yourself wearing next to nothing and ask him to watch. Maybe it will get him to do some physical stiff to get those endorphins flowing. Sex is exercise, right? (Edit: I just can't get myself to change that auto-correction.)

Me personally, I would ask him ( my husband) to exercise in his boxer briefs and I would watch. But then I'm selfish like that.  I know my h likes when I admire his body. It ain't perfect but...!

Hmm.I just gavemyself an idea! 

See? It helps talking to somebody about these things. You've helped me a lot! Thank you!!


----------



## calvin

clipclop2 said:


> Seems like he really did it to you. He baited and tormented. She invited him into your lives but TRY to be fair that this criminal acts on his own. He is a horrible person. Psychopath? Maybe. Did you try to find his parole officer?
> 
> Just remember that a guy like that can never have his wagon truly fixed. Stay safe.
> 
> I know you know all this stuff. She invited a predator into your lives and you are angry at her for it. Seems he wasn't actually trolling for her though. He was trolling for someone like you. Very weird if you think about it. He used her to find you and she had no clue.
> 
> What CSS did was wrong. But there is no way she could have foreseen this.
> 
> I guess because the guy challenges you as a man, not even really over your mate, it hit you especially hard. The guy is definitely a psycho.
> 
> Any idea who he is tormenting now? Bet they could use some support.


 He lost most of his friends and barely holding on to his job,he hasn't contacted me in four months
I told I'm I'd just ratchet it up more on him and I will.
Him keeping his mouth shut helps,he's not tormenting anyone now,even his friends
did'nt truely know how he was,he's been isolated pretty much.
His ex LTG has a lot of biker friends,they are looking forward to running into him also.
I'm friends with his ex now,reall sweet lady who had the wool pulled over her eyes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

clipclop2 said:


> Sounds like he is grieving.
> 
> When all the immediate high emotions are calm, when it is quiet, that's when some people really start to process and it can really get you down. Yeah, I think if you can back off and support him without bagging him, he will come around. Give him time. Lots of it. Could be months.
> 
> I had a very depressive response to something recently and all I knew is that I wasn't me. Turns out I was grieving something I didn't expect to grieve since it seemed like I was dealing with it so well originally. I was confused and I know myself really well. Guess I knowmyself a little better now for the experience!
> 
> Any chance he would go for a bit of a pick me up? Even vitamin B shots could help. Exercise is another non-drug option but who feels like exercising when you are depressed?
> 
> Funny idea. Start exercising yourself wearing next to nothing and ask him to watch. Maybe it will get him to do some physical stiff to get those endorphins flowing. Sex is exercise, right? (Edit: I just can't get myself to change that auto-correction.)
> 
> Me personally, I would ask him ( my husband) to exercise in his boxer briefs and I would watch. But then I'm selfish like that.  I know my h likes when I admire his body. It ain't perfect but...!
> 
> Hmm.I just gavemyself an idea!
> 
> See? It helps talking to somebody about these things. You've helped me a lot! Thank you!!


I have a lot of a crap on my mind. Dealing with the first anniversary of her A, her OM reaching out to me at a really suspicious time, stress with class and life in general. Haven't been feeling motivated for anything not just my relationship with FG.

I'm good when it comes to exercise and fitness. I work out 2 hrs 4 days a week. I also have been learning Muay Thai since last June.

While we are both HD, I'm pretty much super HD. Sex is a stress reliever, pain reliever, sleep aid, and is just fun to me. One thing that hasn't really changed recently. She could be wearing sweatpants and a t shirt and I'll still find her hot and want some of her. She's just as bad. She watches me do Muay Thai sometimes, she has been very vocal about it being a turn on and we rarely make it all the way home.

And we walk around in underwear all the time. Benefit of having no kids.


----------



## CantSitStill

I no longer feel low self esteem. I have pushed myself to keep on striving to work hard and never give up. Now I like this person I have become. Yes knowing I have excelled in my new job helps. I do not ever doubt Calvin's love for me. It is right there in front of my face. The problem is I put him through hell before I finally believed he loved me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*

Sounds like you have it well inhand Calvin.

Are you one of those alpha guys or did he bring it out in you? You must have impressed the heck out of CSS even while she was struggling with guilt. Maybe made her feel more guilty but it pays long term dividends. Your decisive response probably makes your marriage more secure. Most women love when a man steps up and protects his family. Why would she ever look beyond home when she knows you are a man of action? Feeling secure is terribly important. You done good.

What makes you so mad still? What's the hardest part? Knowing he is still out there?


----------



## clipclop2

CSS: Seems like you are going to be one of those could that end up better puerile and with a better marriage after the fall. If you buy the premise that marriage isn't suppose to make you happy but instead to provide a vehicle for personal growth, you have both benefited in a really weird way. You know that coal into diamond because of pressure thing.

Maybe this is the easy it was suppose to go. 

RTBP: Depression definitely his all aspects of life. Any chance you can take a break? Get away, away? Change of scenery. At least start planning for a break. It would give you something to look forward to.

The OM reaching out would seriously piss me off. Woe be unto him. Was that recently? Remember, these anniversaries hit the AP as well. 

You could get married again. Go to Vegas. Let Elvis work his magic. Do it to replace the other anniversary. Be really silly and crazy so that you can't help but have it overwhelm the bad stuff. It will never go away but something outrageous could help.

Glad sex is still going well. I am of the same school where sex relieves my stress and helps with anxiety. Dont know that it is healthy but it seems to work ok in marriage. My h is lower D than methough.

Have you considered seeing a doctor to get something to help you over the hump? If exercise and sex aren't doing it, noting wrong with reaching out for something else. You won't need it forever. Probably really short term. Just a thought. It isn't for everyone.

I hope you feel better soon.

FG: Sorry my idea wouldn't work in your case.

TRY dressing up like a chicken and invite him to do the chicken dance. It is an old Pennsylvania thing known to bring anyone out of the doldrums. Maybe!


----------



## calvin

clipclop2 said:


> Sounds like you have it well inhand Calvin.
> 
> Are you one of those alpha guys or did he bring it out in you? You must have impressed the heck out of CSS even while she was struggling with guilt. Maybe made her feel more guilty but it pays long term dividends. Your decisive response probably makes your marriage more secure. Most women love when a man steps up and protects his family. Why would she ever look beyond home when she knows you are a man of action? Feeling secure is terribly important. You done good.
> 
> What makes you so mad still? What's the hardest part? Knowing he is still out there?


 I believe I'm alpha by nature,its the way I was raised.You take care of your family and
others who need help,over twenty years we have thrived on only my pay,I worked a lot of long hours.
I'm not as mad as I was,I have seen him on the road before and gave chase,I want him to know if he
tries this with another family he might run into another man who will make him very sorry.
Apparently the other husbands were afraid of him or just figured they didn't want their wives anymore.
The POS actually got a kick out of ruining other families and intimidating the husbands.
Knowing that I was not able to get my hands on him bothers me,you don't threaten to rape my wife.
One more call or text and I sue his company,his boss knows this,he used company phones
and vehicles to harass me.
If he stays out of sight then he will be out of mind.
He was all bark and no bite,also a habitual liar about everything and I mean
everything,I still don't know how CSS bought into his lies.
When CSS told him she loved me he would try to work other angles and tell her how
great things would be with him.
He has no car,house,credit...nothing.
He truely is evil and I would still love to teach him a thing or two.
I did do a number to his life though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

You know how it is when you are in laa-laa land because you are getting attention. So you really do know how CSS could buy his lies. The fantasy was alluring. But dang, when you really WERE the hero you showed that fantasy can be reality with the right man. New had its appeal. You don't always see what you have. Etc. I'm not trying to downplay what she did. I think she was in an altered state of consciousness. She didn't really love him. She loved the idea.

Also, I read this book, love, lust and the search for God and the guy suggested that sometimes people mistake fear for love. Something about the rush of adrenaline. I can see that. The guy was dangerous and surely even CSS recognized that in among the other things she was feeling. It isn't necessarily about being with an alleged bad boy. Those relationships are usually about being "honored" to be chosen by someone who is aloof. This could have really been about mistaking the rush of fear for something different.

Just a thought.


----------



## CantSitStill

You pretty much got it right clipclop. It makes me sick now but yes it was more the idea of loving him. Akk how could I? Now I see that it was definitely a fantasy that I made up in my own head. It was my way of running away from reality. I do not like that person I was. Calvin has always been alpha. At times, I resented him for it. He did show me he really loved me when he was willing to take me back after I betrayed him. That opened my eyes a lot. I was in a fog for a while still but eventually I took a good look at myself and was disgusted. I said to myself "it is not too late to change". I have definitely changed since then. It was hard. It was not easy to own up to my faults in our marriage pre-A. But I am so glad I did. I no longer avoid conflict. I no longer run away when I am angry. I face it and learn from it and fix it with calvin. I no longer hold in resentment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Just bringing up our sex life gets either of us going. So thank you clipclop2! And I argue with him being more HD now, I can pretty much go toe to toe with him. But we'd never get anything done. 

And no chicken dance for me. I have no desire to be posted up on YouTube and that is exactly what he'd do! 

I'm game for a vacation. Spring is usually a great time of the year for us. His birthday, our anniversary, and my birthday are all in a six week spread from mid April to end of May. Vegas would be fun. Last August we went on 12 day cruise to the Mediterranean and it was pretty much affair free. That or a trip to Florida. Idk
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

clipclop2 said:


> RTBP: Depression definitely his all aspects of life. Any chance you can take a break? Get away, away? Change of scenery. At least start planning for a break. It would give you something to look forward to.
> 
> The OM reaching out would seriously piss me off. Woe be unto him. Was that recently? Remember, these anniversaries hit the AP as well.
> 
> You could get married again. Go to Vegas. Let Elvis work his magic. Do it to replace the other anniversary. Be really silly and crazy so that you can't help but have it overwhelm the bad stuff. It will never go away but something outrageous could help.
> 
> Glad sex is still going well. I am of the same school where sex relieves my stress and helps with anxiety. Dont know that it is healthy but it seems to work ok in marriage. My h is lower D than methough.
> 
> Have you considered seeing a doctor to get something to help you over the hump? If exercise and sex aren't doing it, noting wrong with reaching out for something else. You won't need it forever. Probably really short term. Just a thought. It isn't for everyone.
> 
> I hope you feel better soon.
> 
> FG: Sorry my idea wouldn't work in your case.
> 
> TRY dressing up like a chicken and invite him to do the chicken dance. It is an old Pennsylvania thing known to bring anyone out of the doldrums. Maybe!


I've been on Zoloft since last August. I was suppose to start weening off of it soon but it might be a good idea to hold off at the moment. I'm not against getting away for a bit. Spring break for me is in a few weeks and FG mentioned all the other stuff coming up. Not sure about getting married again or redoing our vows. At least not for a while. As for the OM he messaged me on Facebook a little over a month ago. I got a thread on it in the private section.

I'm high drive and my primary love language is Physical touch. So yeah sex is definitely important to me. Lots of if it works for us. And personally, I'd rather her dress as a school girl or a naughty librarian.


----------



## CantSitStill

FG you need to look at things from his head and what he feels. All of the things you always celebrated.. he may feel uncomfortable after what happened. I love your positive additude. Just please do not be surprised or disappointed if he feels down and get's doubts in his head. I am just warning you of this because I have been going through this R process over 2 years and I had no idea that calvin would still struggle for this long. I understand and am not saying there is anything wrong with him. I am just letting you know, it takes a really long time for them to heal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Hell I did'nt thing it would take this long but I'm getting there,mostly good days but
a couple times a week I'm in a dark place,I feel like I don't want to be married to her
anymore and I blame her for trurning that coward lose on me but those times do pass.
Back to MC soo now that she has a different shift and will be home earlier.
Everyone just cirlcle the wagons and don't give up,things will get better.
Things will continue to get better for me and CSS I know it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> I have a lot of a crap on my mind. Dealing with the first anniversary of her A, her OM reaching out to me at a really suspicious time, stress with class and life in general. Haven't been feeling motivated for anything not just my relationship with FG.
> 
> I'm good when it comes to exercise and fitness. I work out 2 hrs 4 days a week. I also have been learning Muay Thai since last June.
> 
> While we are both HD, I'm pretty much super HD. Sex is a stress reliever, pain reliever, sleep aid, and is just fun to me. One thing that hasn't really changed recently. She could be wearing sweatpants and a t shirt and I'll still find her hot and want some of her. She's just as bad. She watches me do Muay Thai sometimes, she has been very vocal about it being a turn on and we rarely make it all the way home.
> 
> And we walk around in underwear all the time. Benefit of having no kids.


Oh sh!t,the OM is contacting you too??
How often and how much?
Is he being a azzhole tough guy like mine was?
Sorry to hear that man,the fvcking bastard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Oh sh!t,the OM is contacting you too??
> How often and how much?
> Is he being a azzhole tough guy like mine was?
> Sorry to hear that man,the fvcking bastard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nah just once. I got a thread in the Private section on it but in short he wrote me an apology message on Facebook. Considering it was the same week FG had the operation last year I doubt it was a coincidence and was really some sort of passive aggressive dig. I just ignored it.

It would be a very bad idea for him to really try to start some sh!t. I know exactly where he lives.


----------



## calvin

What a d!ck.
Sorry man.
There's something wrong with my POS in the head,I've seen him in traffic,I quite
chasing him ( hard to do ),I just watch him floor it and run,gives me a chuckle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

cpacan said:


> Absolutely one of your better posts, EI, I like it - maybe because of brevity
> 
> You included everyone around you which is the most important thing to appreciate. Next time, you may even love the weather and surroundings too, who knows  - the fact is, you can't change it, so you might as well love it for what it is.
> 
> Something to think about: Without winter, would you appreciate summer? Without the dead grass, would you love the living plants and green grass? Without the gray days, would you appreciate the sunny days just as much?


I agree. We all need to focus more on what we have and not on what we think we are missing.



> Well, easy for me to say - we have beautifull weather here, signs of spring


Spring? What's that?


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> . So yeah sex is definitely important to me. Lots of if it works for us. And personally, I'd rather her dress as a school girl or a naughty librarian.


Chicken. 

Agreed about the AD. Did you find it helped earlier and is no longer? If so maybe you should talk to the doc about adjusting your dosage. If it wasn't that helpful there are lots of other choices to explore. Add Abilify?

Vaca sounds fab!


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Refuse to be played said:


> Nah just once. I got a thread in the Private section on it but in short he wrote me an apology message on Facebook. Considering it was the same week FG had the operation last year I doubt it was a coincidence and was really some sort of passive aggressive dig. I just ignored it.
> 
> It would be a very bad idea for him to really try to start some sh!t. I know exactly where he lives.


Don't discount the possibility that it was sincere.

If it was, great! Didn't mean you have to change how you feel about him. It's just mean you can let it go.


----------



## Refuse to be played

clipclop2 said:


> Chicken.
> 
> Agreed about the AD. Did you find it helped earlier and is no longer? If so maybe you should talk to the doc about adjusting your dosage. If it wasn't that helpful there are lots of other choices to explore. Add Abilify?
> 
> Vaca sounds fab!


I would say I felt/feel the same when I'm having a down moment, it just lasted longer than usual. Usually it will hit me and I go down for about a week or so. This lasted over a month. I'll see my doc again in 3 weeks I'll talk to him about it then.


----------



## Refuse to be played

clipclop2 said:


> Don't discount the possibility that it was sincere.
> 
> If it was, great! Didn't mean you have to change how you feel about him. It's just mean you can let it go.


I kinda doubt it was sincere. He said something along the lines of 'You cost me my job and other stuff but I don't hold it against you.' That doesn't come off as someone really asking for forgiveness to me but I don't know. Either way it doesn't really matter I ignored it and blocked him. He'll have to go out of his way to communicate to either us if he is stupid enough to try. I'll deal with him then.

In a way it did help but not in the way it was (possibly) intended. One of the things that always bothered me was the feeling he pretty much got away with it. That my exposure wasn't damaging enough. 3 guess who I was usually picturing in my head when I did Muay Thai. But his message really drove home that what I did had a really effect on him. He lost his job, reputation, his girlfriend, what little respect his adult kids had for him, and access to his grandchildren. So right or wrong (don't care either way tbh) having all that spelled out for me made me feel a bit better.


----------



## calvin

More snow today,eight wet heavy inches,we're at 80 inches for the season,rough winter.
I went to work,took forever but we had no power to the mills,they still don't.
CSS's work called her and her place lost power also,so we had a snow day,it was
nice being home together.
It was real nice,wish we could do it more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

I'm sick of this stupid weather....


----------



## EI

Refuse to be played said:


> I'm sick of this stupid weather....


It was 77 degrees, here, yesterday. Today's weather consisted of rain that turned into snow and ice as the temperature dropped. I've always heard realtors say that in Kentucky you get to enjoy all four seasons. I just never realized that it could all happen in less than one week!


----------



## Refuse to be played

EI said:


> It was 77 degrees, here, yesterday. Today's weather consisted of rain that turned into snow and ice as the temperature dropped. I've always heard realtors say that in Kentucky you get to enjoy all four seasons. I just never realized that it could all happen in less than one week!


Lol. Swim in a lake on Monday...then go ice skating on it on Friday.


----------



## soulpotato

We don't see snow here...but we don't get any season other than summer most the time, either!! You all may think that sounds great, but the heat and humidity drive me crazy, lol. It's like walking around under a hot, wet blanket all the time. EWWWW.


----------



## Headspin

soulpotato said:


> We don't see snow here...but we don't get any season other than summer most the time, either!! You all may think that sounds great, but the heat and humidity drive me crazy, lol. It's like walking around under a hot, wet blanket all the time. EWWWW.


God! you complain about that !? Here in the UK although mild now we have had 4/5 months of almost continuous rain, floods and grey black days 

We'll swap if you want ! :smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> I'm sick of this stupid weather....


 I'm telling ya,that was some heavy ass snow yesterday,snowblower had a hard
time with it.
I just want to be able to sit on my back deck and have a beer or twelve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

Refuse to be played said:


> I kinda doubt it was sincere. He said something along the lines of 'You cost me my job and other stuff but I don't hold it against you.' That doesn't come off as someone really asking for forgiveness to me but I don't know. Either way it doesn't really matter I ignored it and blocked him. He'll have to go out of his way to communicate to either us if he is stupid enough to try. I'll deal with him then.
> 
> In a way it did help but not in the way it was (possibly) intended. One of the things that always bothered me was the feeling he pretty much got away with it. That my exposure wasn't damaging enough. 3 guess who I was usually picturing in my head when I did Muay Thai. But his message really drove home that what I did had a really effect on him. He lost his job, reputation, his girlfriend, what little respect his adult kids had for him, and access to his grandchildren. So right or wrong (don't care either way tbh) having all that spelled out for me made me feel a bit better.


Don't hold it against you? Yea, idiot... good you didn't reply, it'd be too easy to point out to the moron that he lost the job all on his own.. another good reply, glad your life sucks now, hope it gets ****ier...


----------



## calvin

russell28 said:


> Don't hold it against you? Yea, idiot... good you didn't reply, it'd be too easy to point out to the moron that he lost the job all on his own.. another good reply, glad your life sucks now, hope it gets ****ier...


 Yeah,my POS said I ruined his life....he ruined it,I just helped a little!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> We don't see snow here...but we don't get any season other than summer most the time, either!! You all may think that sounds great, but the heat and humidity drive me crazy, lol. It's like walking around under a hot, wet blanket all the time. EWWWW.





Headspin said:


> God! you complain about that !? Here in the UK although mild now we have had 4/5 months of almost continuous rain, floods and grey black days
> 
> We'll swap if you want ! :smthumbup:



I'm with Headspin on this one, which is rather bizarre as it's happened too many times, lately.  I promised myself a long time ago, to NEVER complain about the heat, or the humidity, and I don't. I cannot stand cold, rainy, or grey days. I find it so depressing. On Tuesday we had beautiful weather; warm and sunny, at 77 degrees. Yesterday, we had rain, snow, and sleet. Today, is sunny, but it's only 37. The weather has yanked us around all winter long and I find myself slipping into a rather debilitating case of SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder.) It's getting worse and I don't seem to be perking up, even on the days when it is sunny outside. I may need to schedule some IC. But, depending on my mood, the day of my appt., I don't even know if I could make myself go. But, I know that I desperately need to. 

I confuse myself. When I'm top of the world, I feel unstoppable. When I feel like this, I don't know if I could summon the energy to get myself out of the house if it were on fire. Now, if my family and pets were in the house, you couldn't stop me from getting them all out. But, if I were alone....... 

The most unsettling part of this is that my "moods" are as unpredictable as the weather these days. Up one day, down the next. Sometimes, my moods even vacillate wildly all within the same day. 

Any armchair psychologists want to take a stab at this? I know that the readership on this thread is, somewhat, limited and that I should probably post it in another thread, possibly in another forum. But, I don't think that with my current state of mind, I could handle too much negativity, right now.


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> We don't see snow here...but we don't get any season other than summer most the time, either!! You all may think that sounds great, but the heat and humidity drive me crazy, lol. It's like walking around under a hot, wet blanket all the time. EWWWW.


 Oh boo hoo! 

Poor SP, get to wear shorts and sandals 365! Tell you what, I'll trade with you. You can dig your car out of a crap ton of snow and I'll...deal with the humidity.

I don't like you right now....


----------



## soulpotato

Headspin said:


> God! you complain about that !? Here in the UK although mild now we have had 4/5 months of almost continuous rain, floods and grey black days
> 
> We'll swap if you want ! :smthumbup:


I'll take it!! I love rainy, gloomy weather.


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> Oh boo hoo!
> 
> Poor SP, get to wear shorts and sandals 365! Tell you what, I'll trade with you. You can dig your car out of a crap ton of snow and I'll...deal with the humidity.
> 
> I don't like you right now....


RTBP, wretched! :lol: Is there no happy medium? Why do I have to choose humid heatwave or snowdrift?!  Well, I think I read somewhere that you guys were thinking of visiting this godforsaken place at some point....!


----------



## Refuse to be played

A weekend away from home, just you and B1 might perk you up EI. Tell the kids unless it's an emergency not to call you.


----------



## owl6118

EI said:


> I'm with Headspin on this one, which is rather bizarre as it's happened too many times, lately.  I promised myself a long time ago, to NEVER complain about the heat, or the humidity, and I don't. I cannot stand cold, rainy, or grey days. I find it so depressing. On Tuesday we had beautiful weather; warm and sunny, at 77 degrees. Yesterday, we had rain, snow, and sleet. Today, is sunny, but it's only 37. The weather has yanked us around all winter long and I find myself slipping into a rather debilitating case of SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder.) It's getting worse and I don't seem to be perking up, even on the days when it is sunny outside.


Movement. Exercise. You don't have to be a gym hero, just laying up in your warmest cloathes and taking a brisk walk around the neighborhood will get the blood flowing. Getting up and getting out the door is the hard part, so make it an appointment in you calendar, like and interview or a drs. visit--not a chore that "I'll get to later."

Or just take RTBP's idea and skip town with your hubs.

Whichever.


----------



## soulpotato

EI, I have experienced the vacillation between really HIGH and really LOW, also within short spans of time, but it's not tied to seasonal shifts or weather. I do know that people with bipolar suffer from SAD or something like it sometimes (both a friend of mine and DS have mentioned feeling something that sounds like it).


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Oh boo hoo!
> 
> Poor SP, get to wear shorts and sandals 365! Tell you what, I'll trade with you. You can dig your car out of a crap ton of snow and I'll...deal with the humidity.
> 
> I don't like you right now....


Stop being a hater! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

So, there is a slight chance I may have bladder cancer. The fun never stops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clay2013

pidge70 said:


> So, there is a slight chance I may have bladder cancer. The fun never stops.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am so sorry to hear that. I hope you don't. I would get a second and possible third opinion if they do. I was told over the phone I had cancer in the lymph nodes in my chest (behind my lungs). They of course could not do a test until the next week. Then it took two weeks to get the results. They were wrong. It was three weeks of hell. I always wondered why they decided to tell me over the phone. 


Clay


----------



## soulpotato

I hope not, Pidge!! I'm so sorry you have to worry about that now, that is the last thing you need.


----------



## Forever Grateful

pidge70 said:


> So, there is a slight chance I may have bladder cancer. The fun never stops.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry to hear that. I hope any tests come up negative. You'll be in my prayers tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

It's one of the things they threw out there. I told her not to worry.


----------



## Refuse to be played

joe kidd said:


> It's one of the things they threw out there. I told her not to worry.


That's good to hear. Either way I hope it's nothing serious.


----------



## CantSitStill

Oh Pidge, I'll be praying
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

joe kidd said:


> It's one of the things they threw out there. I told her not to worry.


I can understand why she is worrying. I think it's normal to worry when a doctor throws out the C word.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> So, there is a slight chance I may have bladder cancer. The fun never stops.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Doubling up on my prayers for you two.
My sister had it pretty bad years ago,she's as healthy as a horse now.
Treatments have improved greatly,you'll be fine.
You two take care of eachother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## owl6118

EI said:


> When I feel like this, I don't know if I could summon the energy to get myself out of the house if it were on fire. Now, if my family and pets were in the house, you couldn't stop me from getting them all out. But, if I were alone.......


Thought about this overnight. I am just recovering from major depression and I take it deadly seriously as a result. 

The first thing depression does is rob you of the ability to take that first step to feel better. So rob it of its ability to rob you!

Tell BI when you are going to talk that walk. Then take your phone and narrate it it to him in real time, with texts and pictures. Make a story of it. Your promise will get you moving. And making the narration will turn it into an adventure. You may have taken the same walk 1000 times but I guarantee you will see new things you have never noticed when you are looking for things to tell him about or take a picture of. 

Or do something else! But make a mechanism that will make you do it, if you can't trust your willpower alone. Depression knows all about how to get at your willpower. So side step it! Fake it out!


----------



## cpacan

I just wanted to pop in and say "Hi" to all of you, old and new posters.

I've been having a week above average here. A few days ago I realized that for the first time in 3 years I felt like listening to loud and happy music in the car. It made me smile and feel good. I haven't really listened to anything at all in my car besides a few audio books since d-day.

I thought a bit about what have changed. I found that I'm getting pretty good at living MY life.


----------



## russell28

cpacan said:


> I just wanted to pop in and say "Hi" to all of you, old and new posters.
> 
> I've been having a week above average here. A few days ago I realized that for the first time in 3 years I felt like listening to loud and happy music in the car. It made me smile and feel good. I haven't really listened to anything at all in my car besides a few audio books since d-day.
> 
> I thought a bit about what have changed. I found that I'm getting pretty good at living MY life.


I'm also starting to do more things I did pre-dday.. I can totally relate to what you're feeling. I'm drawing, playing games.. listening to loud and happy music in my car.. can't wait until I can have the windows down and moonroof open.


----------



## CantSitStill

I have noticed I am in a better mood when the sun is out. This winter I had a hard time keeping my spunk. I'm feeling much better now. It may be 50 out right now but tomorrows high will only be 20. It's insane.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Been a while and I sort of figured some thing out so here it goes. My washer broke. I called the repair man and he says there is a baring going out under the middle support so it is always off balance. It will cost me to repair about the same as going to get a new one. Ok, so the repair for the F1 problem isn't done but I still have to pay him $85.00 for coming out. I got curious and went to the old faithful internet and low and behold there is no baring as he was explaining to me and from everything else I read all that needed to be done was replace these 4 springs with rods. I ordered the parts. Really made me mad that this man would take advantage of me like that. Especially when I am feeling very put out by everyone again. However I still needed laundry done so I packed it up and off to the laundry mat. Now I have not gone to one of these in years so I made sure I had lots of quarters. They don't use quarters you buy a plastic card and put money on it like a credit card, insert into machine and just like that it's on. So amazing but the cost of these machines wow. So I am trying to make the most of all the cloths etc into as few as possible machines and it dawns on me that I was washing his clothes while he was going over there and having sex. What where did that come from? Wow that would mean I was handling his underwear after he got done F her. That is just sick and what about the nights he didn't take a shower? Was he bringing her stuff on him to my bed as well? So I have been triggering all day. He notices my face asks if I was crying and I told him no. This is something I do all the time and I think I figured out why. Sorry this is long. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. I didn't want to see the look on his face when he realized I was hurting over something that could or could not be true but he was the cause of. Then if he is not answering all my questions when I ask I wouldn't ever know So why didn't I say something? Does/did anyone else have insight into this? I think from now on he should be told every time and everything I think and feel when I feel or think it at whatever time of day or night. IS this the right thing to do?


----------



## bfree

Do you want him to know the real "you" or just the "you" that you put out there for everyone else? You shouldn't hide these things from him. It is only going to foster resentment and mistrust without giving him an opportunity to heal old wounds. It's not fair to you and it's not fair to him.


----------



## Refuse to be played

I understand where your coming from jupiter. I trigger sometimes off the weirdest things. I too don't don't bring up most of the random triggers like that. I know I'm 'suppose' to but I just don't feel like making it an issue and having a discussion on it.


----------



## soulpotato

Refuse to be played said:


> I understand where your coming from jupiter. I trigger sometimes off the weirdest things. I too don't don't bring up most of the random triggers like that. I know I'm 'suppose' to but I just don't feel like making it an issue and having a discussion on it.


My partner is the same way. She says she just needs to work through the stuff on her own, because discussion won't help. Time, she says, and processing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

soulpotato said:


> My partner is the same way. She says she just needs to work through the stuff on her own, because discussion won't help. Time, she says, and processing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That plus I recognize that some of the things that trigger me are stupid. Some triggers FG can't do anything about so I just don't say anything about it. For example, I trigger when I see people with or commercials for e-cigarettes. I remember talking to her boss once and he had said he wanted to quit smoking and was going to try them. Nothing she can do about it so no point bring it up.


----------



## jupiter13

Thank You Bfree I knew I would get words of wisdom from you. My first thought was I was protecting him from being upset or having a bad day then of course why would I want him to have a good day if I'm having a bad day because of his behavior. It has been on going that I have always had to impress upon him that behavior and the person are not the same thing. "I can love you but hate the behavior," the two are not one. I think he may be getting it finally. Emotional reactions seem hard for him to understand. It's like he has gone through life reacting with bad behavior on his emotional level without knowing why he is doing so or that what he does effects others traumatically. It's as if I should except that this was his way of saying I'm a bad person, I'm no good, I'm unhappy and I didn't have the intention of hurting you. How can someone not know that their actions can hurt someone else whether they wanted to or not? I also think he thinks he's entitled to act or do what he wants when he wants regardless of what he does to anyone else around him as long as it is done without intention to hurt someone else but hurt himself or escape. Did that make sense?

Am I really not letting him in by keeping my struggles to myself? Am I not bringing them on to myself needlessly by having these thoughts that never entered his mind to begin with? 

Soulpotato what do you do to address this in your partner?

Refused what do you do to open yourself up when you are holding back?

We recently got another cat and as I look at this cat he is just about as close to being a Bengal cat as we could get without papers. 2 weeks before D Day we had gone out and he bought me a Reg. Bengal kitten. The day was full of I love yous and committing to raising this kitten together as best as we could. (Our pets are our children) Several months later our grand kids let her out one night and she was killed. This loss has effected me as if it was another episode of betrayal. I have resentment that he would have exposed me so such deliberate act of deceit and play with my heart like that with everything else that was going on with him. I have also blamed her death on him as if we had not gotten her she would be alive today. How dare he bring this innocent kitten into a house that was about to be torn apart and he knew it. I can say I am glad she is not here I would end up hating her and I would never want that for her. Any thought?
I'm just not good a quick short posts LOL


----------



## Refuse to be played

I usually let out somethings in MC. We save a majority of our talks for that. But when I have to get something off my chest and it can't wait for our next session I just sit her down and have a few drinks until I feel comfortable sharing. But that's just me though. Opening up is not something I do easily. 

Other things I don't discuss with her I just deal with in IC.


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes calvin triggers over weird random things too. Usually they don't last very long at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Yes calvin triggers over weird random things too. Usually they don't last very long at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Yes,especially when the sucker trucks show up at the plant,that's what the POS
does,he sucks out pits,very skilled job.
The triggers are much shorter and like you I can't blame my wife for it,
Its not something she's doing.
It will get better,I know it is for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

See with me random triggers like that can ruin the rest of the day sometimes. And if I'm already angry or just having a sh-tty day it stacks on top of it. And considering not to long ago we were going through the anniversary of her A and everything a LOT of the days were sh-tty and the triggers stayed in my head.

Thank god for the heavy bag in the basement. I've gotten up at like 4 am so many times to go to work on that thing.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> See with me random triggers like that can ruin the rest of the day sometimes. And if I'm already angry or just having a sh-tty day it stacks on top of it. And considering not to long ago we were going through the anniversary of her A and everything a LOT of the days were sh-tty and the triggers stayed in my head.
> 
> Thank god for the heavy bag in the basement. I've gotten up at like 4 am so many times to go to work on that thing.


 Yeah,I'll take my frustration out on the mill with a sledgehammer.
I pretend its the POS's face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

calvin said:


> Yeah,I'll take my frustration out on the mill with a sledgehammer.
> 
> I pretend its the POS's face.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Your mill looks THAT bad?


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> Your mill looks THAT bad?


You're right,I owe an apology to the mill.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hawx20

Maybe its me, but does anyone ever get motivated by triggers? I'm in the process of starting a new business venture and its very intimidating. Everytime I start to doubt myself with this or anything now, I start to think about my wifes affair and it motivates me.

Its almost like I know i've been through hell and I'm still standing. The anger from the trigger motivates me not to fail. The anger motivates me to want to succeed so bad that I know I will not fail.

Again, maybe its me. The way my life has been I've learned how to be strong and focus my anger. At a certain point, the pain and sorrow turn into a defiant anger that wont let me stay down. That defiant anger has always been my greatest strength.


----------



## Refuse to be played

hawx20 said:


> Maybe its me, but does anyone ever get motivated by triggers? I'm in the process of starting a new business venture and its very intimidating. Everytime I start to doubt myself with this or anything now, I start to think about my wifes affair and it motivates me.
> 
> Its almost like I know i've been through hell and I'm still standing. The anger from the trigger motivates me not to fail. The anger motivates me to want to succeed so bad that I know I will not fail.
> 
> Again, maybe its me. The way my life has been I've learned how to be strong and focus my anger. At a certain point, the pain and sorrow turn into a defiant anger that wont let me stay down. That defiant anger has always been my greatest strength.


I wouldn't exactly say triggers motivate me. The anger can though. Anger and hatred for specific people can be motivators for me. Pushes me to go harder, faster, and to not stop when I feel like calling it a day. Also it's always been easier for me to deal with anger over sorrow, fear, etc.

It's a double edged sword though, at least for me it is and I know it isn't healthy. I learning to process those negative emotions without getting angry or just shutting down emotionally.


----------



## jim123

hawx20 said:


> Maybe its me, but does anyone ever get motivated by triggers? I'm in the process of starting a new business venture and its very intimidating. Everytime I start to doubt myself with this or anything now, I start to think about my wifes affair and it motivates me.
> 
> Its almost like I know i've been through hell and I'm still standing. The anger from the trigger motivates me not to fail. The anger motivates me to want to succeed so bad that I know I will not fail.
> 
> Again, maybe its me. The way my life has been I've learned how to be strong and focus my anger. At a certain point, the pain and sorrow turn into a defiant anger that wont let me stay down. That defiant anger has always been my greatest strength.


I was thinking about triggers today. Mine is when my wife travels. One thing I did was come on here and take it out on WS's. My wife is traveling next week and now that I know, I will control.

You should think of the A less but it is very good to use the trigger to turn it into a positive or something not negative.


----------



## EI

jim123 said:


> I was thinking about triggers today. Mine is when my wife travels. *One thing I did was come on here and take it out on WS's. *My wife is traveling next week and now that I know, I will control.
> 
> You should think of the A less but it is very good to use the trigger to turn it into a positive or something not negative.


I'm surprised. I've always found you to be one of the more thoughtful and diplomatic posters on TAM. Perhaps, you're reflecting back to your earlier days, here. You've, obviously, grown and healed a great deal since that time. I hope that when comparing my earlier posts to my more recent posts that my personal growth is just as apparent. 

As a former WS, I truly appreciate your contributions to the R thread, and on TAM, in general. If next week proves to be difficult for you, we'll be here.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> I'm surprised. I've always found you to be one of the more thoughtful and diplomatic posters on TAM. Perhaps, you're reflecting back to your earlier days, here. You've, obviously, grown and healed a great deal since that time. I hope that when comparing my earlier posts to my more recent posts that my personal growth is just as apparent.
> 
> As a former WS, I truly appreciate your contributions to the R thread, and on TAM, in general. If next week proves to be difficult for you, we'll be here.


Thanks EI. If I get out of line, please send me to my room.

It is only a few trips. One is three days and the long one is eight. She works in trade show management which is known for affairs and things. This never helps.

I will get through it. We have worked on so much including. You always say the BS contributes and in my case you are correct. Change the stimulus and you change the behavior.


----------



## crazydame

I was wondering if anyone could help me. I was on here a while ago and there is a link or something that there is some sort of survey that you and your husband can take to help each other reconcile. Something to the effect of you both fill it out and discuss it together or something like that. Well i am at a point where i think that this could help myself and hubby out so if anyone knows where i could get this could you please let me know. thanks


----------



## Refuse to be played

Good MC the other day. Been a little over two weeks of me making a real effort again. Things are better. Not great, but definitely better. Gotta keep dating and having fun in R. At the time we were getting along alright, had our MC and talks, and our sex life was still frequent and satisfying but not much else and apparently it wasn't enough. I need to be friends with her and that leads to real intimacy and affection with her. That's how we started, our relationship was originally based on friendship. Being able to just co-exist in a house and have mutual sexual attraction isn't enough for me. I pushed her away from me as my friend and that made things worse. I see now I was getting dangerously close to the BS version of 'ILYBNILWY'.


----------



## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Good MC the other day. Been a little over two weeks of me making a real effort again. Things are better. Not great, but definitely better. Gotta keep dating and having fun in R. At the time we were getting along alright, had our MC and talks, and our sex life was still frequent and satisfying but not much else and apparently it wasn't enough. I need to be friends with her and that leads to real intimacy and affection with her. That's how we started, our relationship was originally based on friendship. Being able to just co-exist in a house and have mutual sexual attraction isn't enough for me. I pushed her away from me as my friend and that made things worse. I see now I was getting dangerously close to the BS version of 'ILYBNILWY'.


 Yep,me and CSS always had a lot of fun together,we loved just hanging out,go have a drink,
sit on the deck and shoot the sh!t,we talked about important stuff and stupid stuff,made eachother laugh
and just have a good time.
We lost it,we just about have it back now,I look forward to seeing her come home and hearing about her day,
she likes my stupid sense of humor,we enjoy eachothers company again.
She's a big Bears fan also,that's helps.

Litttle over two years now and I'm glad we did'nt give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> Yep,me and CSS always had a lot of fun together,we loved just hanging out,go have a drink,
> sit on the deck and shoot the sh!t,we talked about important stuff and stupid stuff,made eachother laugh
> and just have a good time.
> We lost it,we just about have it back now,I look forward to seeing her come home and hearing about her day,
> she likes my stupid sense of humor,we enjoy eachothers company again.
> She's a big Bears fan also,that's helps.
> 
> Litttle over two years now and I'm glad we did'nt give up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad you two are getting it back. Having it makes R a helluva difference. I really want the weather to heat up so I can sit on our deck too.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> Good MC the other day. Been a little over two weeks of me making a real effort again. Things are better. Not great, but definitely better. Gotta keep dating and having fun in R. At the time we were getting along alright, had our MC and talks, and our sex life was still frequent and satisfying but not much else and apparently it wasn't enough. I need to be friends with her and that leads to real intimacy and affection with her. That's how we started, our relationship was originally based on friendship. Being able to just co-exist in a house and have mutual sexual attraction isn't enough for me. I pushed her away from me as my friend and that made things worse. I see now I was getting dangerously close to the BS version of 'ILYBNILWY'.


Thank you for trying again babe and for not giving up on MC back when you wanted to stop going. You we're struggling recently about how you feel but you know that you are and ALWAYS will be my best friend. I am so thankful to have you in my life and that you are giving me is chance to fix things. I want nothing more than for us both to be healed and happy, enjoying the rest of our lives together. I love you so much babe, and always will no matter what.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Thank you for trying again babe and for not giving up on MC back when you wanted to stop going. You we're struggling recently about how you feel but you know that you are and ALWAYS will be my best friend. I am so thankful to have you in my life and that you are giving me is chance to fix things. I want nothing more than for us both to be healed and happy, enjoying the rest of our lives together. I love you so much babe, and always will no matter what.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Hang in there guys,some more time and work and you guys will be just fine.
At one point .....well a few times I thought it was over for us,I was wrong,very wrong.
What CSS has been showing me tells me I made the right choice and things can be better than just
repaired,it can be really good,even better than it was before.
What's up with this Chicago weather? So damn unpredictable its predictable now.
It still sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Hang in there guys,some more time and work and you guys will be just fine.
> At one point .....well a few times I thought it was over for us,I was wrong,very wrong.
> What CSS has been showing me tells me I made the right choice and things can be better than just
> repaired,it can be really good,even better than it was before.
> What's up with this Chicago weather? So damn unpredictable its predictable now.
> It still sucks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Calvin. We're both still hanging tough. We're back on the same page and working together again. I'm doing what I can to show RTBP he made the right choice as well. I'm glad you two are doing better btw! 

And I know right? This weather is insane. I heard it might even snow Monday. I can't wait for some consistent spring weather.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Thank you Calvin. We're both still hanging tough. We're back on the same page and working together again. I'm doing what I can to show RTBP he made the right choice as well. I'm glad you two are doing better btw!
> 
> And I know right? This weather is insane. I heard it might even snow Monday. I can't wait for some consistent spring weather.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good,you guys stay on the path.
Yeah,looks like a couple 2-3 inches of snow coming our way,you can bet your ass its
going to be a blazing,hot humid summer.
Oh well,got to roll with the punches.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Just wanna let you know FG. We had times where right before we walked into MC, calvin made comments. Very hurtful comments like "if you wouldn't have done this we wouldn't have to be here". He also refused to go and I landed up going by myself. It felt hopeless with him at times. But we got through it and are much much better now. He still has days where he says "Why did you do this to me?". I think to myself, wow I did this to myself and him. I ask myself why also. The thing is, it wasnt really about the OM. It wasnt about calvin even tho I thought it was at the time. It was me blaming calvin because I was not happy with myself. It was me acting out because I needed to make changes in myself in order to be happy. I did not know that at the time. I blamed calvin and told myself he was a jerk every day. Never ever depend on someone else for your own happiness, it is not fair to that person. That is what I call being selfishly dependant on them to fulfill your happiness. It does not work that way. I put calvin and myself through hell. Now I look to him and think to myself. "What can I do for calvin to make his day better?". That is what we should do. Love is getting joy out of making your partner feel good. If both people do this it makes your marriage much healthier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Just wanna let you know FG. We had times where right before we walked into MC, calvin made comments. Very hurtful comments like "if you wouldn't have done this we wouldn't have to be here". He also refused to go and I landed up going by myself. It felt hopeless with him at times. But we got through it and are much much better now. He still has days where he says "Why did you do this to me?". I think to myself, wow I did this to myself and him. I ask myself why also. The thing is, it wasnt really about the OM. It wasnt about calvin even tho I thought it was at the time. It was me blaming calvin because I was not happy with myself. It was me acting out because I needed to make changes in myself in order to be happy. I did not know that at the time. I blamed calvin and told myself he was a jerk every day. Never ever depend on someone else for your own happiness, it is not fair to that person. That is what I call being selfishly dependant on them to fulfill your happiness. It does not work that way. I put calvin and myself through hell. Now I look to him and think to myself. "What can I do for calvin to make his day better?". That is what we should do. Love is getting joy out of making your partner feel good. If both people do this it makes your marriage much healthier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I don't agree with everthing you said here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

I can't do this anymore, I don't want to try. Best of luck to everyone on this thread. I'm leaving TAM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Imagine that. Who cares. Tired of hearing how you are going to leave. Be a big girl and do it. Ill be fine.


----------



## CantSitStill

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I am not lying and am not trying to make you look or feel bad honey. I'm sorry. I just wanted to tell FG that we got through a lot of rough triggers is all. Just want people to know it gets better. So what's going on with Pidge? She ok?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> I am not lying and am not trying to make you look or feel bad honey. I'm sorry. I just wanted to tell FG that we got through a lot of rough triggers is all. Just want people to know it gets better. So what's going on with Pidge? She ok?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 No,give yourself a little bit of credit.
The damage almost can't be repaired,almost.
You've done great in showing me a lot,lot of love,lot of remorse and a lot of gumption.
Love you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> I can't do this anymore, I don't want to try. Best of luck to everyone on this thread. I'm leaving TAM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, come on you two don't mean this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Imagine that. Who cares. Tired of hearing how you are going to leave. Be a big girl and do it. Ill be fine.


 You don't mean that joe.
Both of you calm down and relax.
Maybe one of you leave for the night then talk tomorrow when
things have cooled off some.
Praying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Oh I mean it. Not waiting around to have her do this crap to me again.


----------



## joe kidd

.......


----------



## calvin

Joe you guys have'nt even had counseling yet.
You have not tried everything yet and I know you're a man who exhaust all options
and sets out to do a job with the right tools so he has success.
One of you guys leave for the night and get that appointment going for counseling please.
I don't know if it can be fixed perfect but it can be resolved.
You love her,she loves you.
You know this.
She Knows it,let her in man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Seems she has no problem having sex with other men but not with me. We had sex 8 times in 2013. Less then one of her weekend romps with him. Not to mention the one she swears she didn't sleep with, although there was a charge for a hotel room on her CC in his town.


----------



## joe kidd

And she got a text last month from someone calling her honey wishing that they could have had a relationship. I asked for the number and was told flat out no.


----------



## calvin

A little time apart and get on MC asap,like yesterday.
You guys have'nt been trying for sh!ts and giggles.
You're both trying because you love one another.
I'll be praying like a mother tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Don't you guys have transparency in place?


----------



## calvin

Hope we got some better news this morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

I've got great news. I talked with my daughter-in-law this morning at about 1 am and my son about 2:30 am. Seems he has been seeing this girl for the last 4 years. Yap that's right my own son is less of a man in my eyes this morning. I have berated him for the damage he is doing to my grand daughter and he better pray I don't see him anytime soon. As I ended our conversation in tears I think he got the point. Not that anything will help them at this point. I can clearly see where this has come and where they are going. This girl may be pregnant too and God help her. Isn't this just a great way to start the morning. I lost respect for my oldest born son.


----------



## hawx20

jupiter13 said:


> I lost respect for my oldest born son.


I am sorry to hear this. Cheaters dont stop to realize all the people they hurt and shame.


----------



## calvin

Joe,pidge?
Check in please,I'm getting tired of praying.
Jupiter,I'm sorry you're feeling bad.
I hope things get better,you're included in my prayers tonight.
Tie a knot and hold on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

jupiter13 said:


> I've got great news. I talked with my daughter-in-law this morning at about 1 am and my son about 2:30 am. Seems he has been seeing this girl for the last 4 years. Yap that's right my own son is less of a man in my eyes this morning. I have berated him for the damage he is doing to my grand daughter and he better pray I don't see him anytime soon. As I ended our conversation in tears I think he got the point. Not that anything will help them at this point. I can clearly see where this has come and where they are going. This girl may be pregnant too and God help her. Isn't this just a great way to start the morning. I lost respect for my oldest born son.


I'm sorry jupiter. 

My parents and siblings must feel the same way about me. It's a horrible feeling knowing they all think less of you. I hope you got through to your son and he starts making positive choices from here on out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Sorry to hear that, Jupiter, that's terrible.  Must be really triggering, too. I wish you could get away somewhere and just take some time for yourself.


----------



## jupiter13

Update: Daughter in law text-ed son showed up at home at 4:30 AM apologized and asked if he could hold her. They have been together every since then talking and spending time with they're out of control 6 yr old daughter. I got to say I told ya so. Keeping my fingers crossed he does the right thing. He still does not know I had already talked to his wife before him. So something clicked, I hope it was my tears, the concern for the damage to grandchild and the sorrow of him not being the man I thought he was. I had to repeat several times you took the vows you want to go play you get divorced first. Period. I am unsure if I should follow up with unprotected sex mother talk and she better not show up at my house with child. LOL Please cross fingers for them they really love each other and life has given them so heavy blows of late.


----------



## jim123

jupiter13 said:


> Update: Daughter in law text-ed son showed up at home at 4:30 AM apologized and asked if he could hold her. They have been together every since then talking and spending time with they're out of control 6 yr old daughter. I got to say I told ya so. Keeping my fingers crossed he does the right thing. He still does not know I had already talked to his wife before him. So something clicked, I hope it was my tears, the concern for the damage to grandchild and the sorrow of him not being the man I thought he was. I had to repeat several times you took the vows you want to go play you get divorced first. Period. I am unsure if I should follow up with unprotected sex mother talk and she better not show up at my house with child. LOL Please cross fingers for them they really love each other and life has given them so heavy blows of late.


Great job in how you handled this.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

joe kidd said:


> Seems she has no problem having sex with other men but not with me. We had sex 8 times in 2013. Less then one of her weekend romps with him. Not to mention the one she swears she didn't sleep with, although there was a charge for a hotel room on her CC in his town.


8 times? That doesn't sound like reconciliation to me. Time to just move on.


----------



## pidge70

WorkingOnMe said:


> 8 times? That doesn't sound like reconciliation to me. Time to just move on.


With all due respect, you have no idea what goes on in our home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> With all due respect, you have no idea what goes on in our home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Pidge is right,we all come here and bear our souls to strangers who after awhile
become friends,well some of us do.
We all hold back some details and that's normal,we all need help,not judgment.
The fact that we are all on here is a testament that we all are looking to better ourselves
and become better people and also learn from our fvck ups,I refuse to call them mistakes.
I'm guilty also,no I never had another since me and CSS exchanged vows,or enven while we
were engaged but I make some messed up choices in our marriage.
Pidge is a good woman and joe is a fine and strong man who fvcked up also.
I believe they will make it through this battle they are in.
I just wish they both would understand they are fighting for the same thing.
I have faith that they both will make it.
Hell,they love eachother,I see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

pidge70 said:


> With all due respect, you have no idea what goes on in our home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pidge you seem like a nice enough person. If what he said is true, maybe it's time for you both to just move on.


----------



## jim123

pidge70 said:


> With all due respect, you have no idea what goes on in our home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One of you must blink and break the cycle.


----------



## pidge70

jim123 said:


> One of you must blink and break the cycle.


I said the same exact thing to Joe earlier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

WorkingOnMe said:


> Pidge you seem like a nice enough person. If what he said is true, maybe it's time for you both to just move on.


I've pondered since Joe made his post how to respond. I hate to say anything if it's not constructive. 

Pidge, you posted something that *REALLY* pissed me off quite a while back. There was a thread running about how a man feels the love from his wife when she willingly has sex with him. 

You made the sarcastic comment "I'm supposed to show my love by letting you dip your wick? Well, sometimes this candle is all dried up."

Do you know what I thought? "Hmmm, I wonder why she never felt that way with the OM?" 

I didn't post, because it would be hurtful. But now that Joe posted what he did.... you need to hear exactly that.

It is unacceptable for a WS to not give to their spouse what they did for the OP. You've got to commit, or quit. No more of this is acceptable.


----------



## pidge70

larry.gray said:


> I've pondered since Joe made his post how to respond. I hate to say anything if it's not constructive.
> 
> Pidge, you posted something that *REALLY* pissed me off quite a while back. There was a thread running about how a man feels the love from his wife when she willingly has sex with him.
> 
> You made the sarcastic comment "I'm supposed to show my love by letting you dip your wick? Well, sometimes this candle is all dried up."
> 
> Do you know what I thought? "Hmmm, I wonder why she never felt that way with the OM?"
> 
> I didn't post, because it would be hurtful. But now that Joe posted what he did.... you need to hear exactly that.
> 
> It is unacceptable for a WS to not give to their spouse what they did for the OP. You've got to commit, or quit. No more of this is acceptable.



That goes both ways wouldn't you say? Joe is a WS as well, lest people seem to forget. They always conveniently do.


----------



## larry.gray

Oh yes I'm aware.

Is he refusing to have sex with you?


----------



## pidge70

larry.gray said:


> Oh yes I'm aware.
> 
> Is he refusing to have sex with you?


One of my many reasons is and excuse the TMI, I have a prolapsed bladder. Do you know what that is? I have to physically push my bladder back in after I urinate. The thought of sex freaks me out. I also possibly have bladder cancer. I go in for testing this Thursday.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> That goes both ways wouldn't you say? Joe is a WS as well, lest people seem to forget. They always conveniently do.


 It did cut both ways and deep.
Two wrongs don't make a right,its an old and worn out saying but it rings true.
Still thinking and praying for you both.
You guys CAN make it,put the sh!t behind you please and look to building a solid future together with your family.
Extra prayers for you pidge,I hope the test come out negative,a special prayer for joe.
I hope you find peace of mind and can forgive,its hard as hell I know.
Happy b day pidge.
I'm fvcking pulling for you guys.
I have faith you both will make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

calvin said:


> It did cut both ways and deep.
> Two wrongs don't make a right,its an old and worn out saying but it rings true.
> Still thinking and praying for you both.
> You guys CAN make it,put the sh!t behind you please and look to building a solid future together with your family.
> Extra prayers for you pidge,I hope the test come out negative,a special prayer for joe.
> I hope you find peace of mind and can forgive,its hard as hell I know.
> Happy b day pidge.
> I'm fvcking pulling for you guys.
> I have faith you both will make it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Calvin.


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## calvin

I hope you both give eachother the gift of forgivness for this birthday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

pidge70 said:


> One of my many reasons is and excuse the TMI, I have a prolapsed bladder. Do you know what that is? I have to physically push my bladder back in after I urinate. The thought of sex freaks me out. I also possibly have bladder cancer. I go in for testing this Thursday.


This is how you both deal with these things. Joe is worried again that you may leave him, in a different way,


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## soulpotato

Pidge, I hope the test results come back all clear.


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## pidge70

soulpotato said:


> Pidge, I hope the test results come back all clear.


Thanks sp.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

soulpotato said:


> Pidge, I hope the test results come back all clear.


 In my nightly prayers pidge,CSS's also.
We have rug burn on the knees we prayed so hard,you'll be fine.
Now we need to make some other kind of rug burns!
CSS will be home soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

LOL Calvin, power-praying! You are too funny.


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## jupiter13

Opps change of subject been keeping to myself lately but news. The property has sold. One of the things now is we have to be out in 60 days. Ouch! With all the emotional crap and dealing with so much loss I actually have mixed emotions. One hand says I can't leave. I can't imagine leaving all the hard work I have done here, plants and trees I have planted, My dead animals I will never get to sit and talk too anymore. However on the other hand, this place is nothing now but a trigger. Everything about it has been triggering me from the color of the walls, to pulling weeds. I am ready for a change. It will give us a place to make a new start and new memories. Good or bad I knew this day would come sooner or later and I have a choice, to sit and cry about it or enjoy the new adventure I am about to go on. We don't think we have enough time to find a new place that will be our forever home so I have let WH know that we can just buy something small and cheap as a stepping stone forward. (I do fear what one of our dogs will do he has never seen a fence in his life.) So things have turned around I am still sad that yet again one of life's problems is taking first place over me getting my needs met when it comes to dealing with getting my answers and moving forward in love. We started with a new MC and right off the bat he is making WH face some honesty issues with me and he is trying. This MC may actually be the one to turn it all around.


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## calvin

I'm sure you'll miss a lot jupiter,lot of memories there but its time to make some
new ones.
Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

Thank you Calvin I think the move is the best for me, been saying so for a long time, just didn't know if I was going to go it alone or not. Everything about this place is a trigger for me, everyday there is something. I am glad to get away. This situation has forced the move none of us thought it would sell so quickly.

As I have been forced into this major change in life so he is now forced into a change he is not prepared for nor can control. I have seen him go from panic, depression, sorrow and back. He was always the one ready to go and do afraid I wouldn't move or would have major problems with it. I love it. Looks like I have been underestimated again. !!


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## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> Thank you Calvin I think the move is the best for me, been saying so for a long time, just didn't know if I was going to go it alone or not. Everything about this place is a trigger for me, everyday there is something. I am glad to get away. This situation has forced the move none of us thought it would sell so quickly.
> 
> As I have been forced into this major change in life so he is now forced into a change he is not prepared for nor can control. I have seen him go from panic, depression, sorrow and back. He was always the one ready to go and do afraid I wouldn't move or would have major problems with it. I love it. Looks like I have been underestimated again. !!


 He's panicing and you're keeping your cool.
Be careful what you ask for,you just might get it and it looks like he is.
Sometimes I don't get people,he sounds like he's his own worst enemy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

Just got back from another trip and RTBP accompanied me this time. I had a great time with him away from home for a couple of days. Things have really improved since he started making an effort again and checked back in. He's smiling more, more affectionate, talkative, and just more enthusiastic about life in general. We're still dating each other which goes a long way towards R. In fact we're going to go to dinner and see Captain America tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

hi everyone:

it's been helpful to read the past few pages about triggers, etc., and how everyone handles them. i have just come through a triggery time -- the second anniversary of my first d-day, the big one.

here is the bottom line: it's better. every drop of hurt and anger has _not_ evaporated, of course. i can definitely still feel them, and at times i can still be overtaken by memories. sometimes (like with all of you) they are triggered by something that happens or TV or something, and other times they drift into my mind randomly. 

BUT it's way better! i emphasize that because so often all of us wonder, will it always be so hard? for me, it's not.

those times of tumbling into a mind movie don't last long. i can pretty easily talk myself out of it. why? because my fWH has done the work. for those of you who don't know me, he did only a half-*ssed version of the work for most of the first year. finally, with the help of our great MC, he cut the crap, he embraced full transparency, and he opened the door for both of us to work on our marriage. i had work to do as well.

i wish that i could say that i never think about it. i get impatient with myself now when i do -- because it's such a waste of the minutes and hours of my life. fWH often notices and asks me about it, and most of the time i tell him. other times, i think, oh, it's all been said, and i just chase it out of my mind. i always remember B1 saying, _i choose happiness _

XO to all. EI, how are you feeling these days?


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## calvin

In Kentucy,getting ready to go to some Indian burial grounds,there's mounds
all over the place where they buried their dead.
Driven past them a hundred times but we never went to check them out.
This should be cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



jupiter13 said:


> Update: Daughter in law text-ed son showed up at home at 4:30 AM apologized and asked if he could hold her. They have been together every since then talking and spending time with they're out of control 6 yr old daughter. I got to say I told ya so. Keeping my fingers crossed he does the right thing. He still does not know I had already talked to his wife before him. So something clicked, I hope it was my tears, the concern for the damage to grandchild and the sorrow of him not being the man I thought he was. I had to repeat several times you took the vows you want to go play you get divorced first. Period. I am unsure if I should follow up with unprotected sex mother talk and she better not show up at my house with child. LOL Please cross fingers for them they really love each other and life has given them so heavy blows of late.


What's the news here? I hate to remind you that once your son cheated he began learning the lines that accompany the script. Don't allow your love to blind you to that fact. If the girl might be pregnant it is likely the girl's way to get him for herself. She won't go away quietly. And your son is a cake eater. Warn your DIL not to trust what he says. She must demand full accountability and transparency.


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## bfree

"I choose happiness" might have been the wisest words I have ever read here or anywhere else.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Margrace*
> will it always be so hard? for me, it's not.
> 
> those times of tumbling into a mind movie don't last long. i can pretty easily talk myself out of it. why? because my fWH has done the work. for those of you who don't know me, he did only a half-*ssed version of the work for most of the first year. finally, *with the help of our great MC, he cut the crap, he embraced full transparency, and he opened the door for both of us to work on our marriage. i had work to do as well.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> *Margrace is a strong ray of sunshine, she gives hope with her results*


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## daisygirl 41

Hi everyone.
Been lurking a bit.
Lovely to have an update from you margrace.

Lots of stuff been going on her. I've been on a few dates, but, boy, did it feel weird!
Hubby has finished it with the OW, again! He's asked me about trying again. Has offered to leave his job and go to counselling and do whatever it takes to make it right. We've talked and talked. 
I've built such a wall around myself now I don't know if I'm ever going to be able to let him in fully again.
I love him, I want to be with him, but it different this time. I don't feel dependent on him for my happiness. I like my new life, my own place my independence. I'm not ready to give that up
He asked if we could start again. Go on dates, take it slow and see how it goes. 
I just don't know. 
I've told him I'll think about it. Just take it a day at a time. He's got to put 100% into it this time. 
He seems different. Not defensive at all, willing to talk, open to any suggestions. 
I'm just so afraid of getting hurt again
DG
X


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## jupiter13

clipclop1 My son is a douche bag. They are not going to make it. He has explained to me how they got together in the first place, I am not impressed. Then what has been going on for a long while, I am not happy. Currently she is using her 15 yr old son as counselor and child caretaker for their 6 yr old daughter. While she is running around to clubs using drugs. The 6 yr old has told me she does not care about her daddy anymore since she is going to get a new daddy very soon. None of this sounds healthy to me. I wash my hands of them. I did have the talk with son about protection and being stupid. Told him to take it easy on her maybe she will work this out but her heart is breaking and if I was her age I might be doing the same thing. All in all he is on my sh~t list and he knows it.:whip:


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## daisygirl 41

EI I've emailed you x


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## clipclop2

Don't do it, DG. 

You know that dance all too well. He doesn't have what it takes and you will do all of the suffering for it.

Don't give up what you have gained.


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## clipclop2

Sorry to hear how bad things are, Jupiter. Poor kids. :-(

Did you tell DIL to expose to the universe?


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## Refuse to be played

bfree said:


> "I choose happiness" might have been the wisest words I have ever read here or anywhere else.


Wise but still so f##king frustrating sometimes. I find myself irritated that I'm happy at times. Or get resentful when I see her happy. I didn't use to get like this. I'm my own buzzkill sometimes.


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## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Wise but still so f##king frustrating sometimes. I find myself irritated that I'm happy at times. Or get resentful when I see her happy. I didn't use to get like this. I'm my own buzzkill sometimes.


It will get much better,hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

I am not going to do anything more for the kids they created this problem they best handle it their way without damaging my grand-daughter. That is when I will set fire to their assesopps. 

Last night was our 2nd MC. Ok so I lost it. My temper got the best of me. Like hell If I am working on anything until he answers my questions. This has been an issue since day one don't any of these counselors get this? So the MC says well lets start asking your questions..My words: "Excuse me? I don't have a list off the top of my head nor do I carry one around besides, I have sent them to him so many times over and over while he deflects, deletes and just ignores. Demonstrating to me he has no true remorse, he does not value my need to know nor is he willing to give me back the intimacy he shared with her so that there can be intimacy between us. He wants to keep the affair a secret between them as to whatever went on or was said since it hurts him to much to talk about it as if I don't live with this and hurt everyday. No. He has the questions i sent him several times already. Time for him to do it or not his choice." (Then there will be consequences too.) "I will not give him "what he wants" or acknowledge him in anyway while she is still an issue between us." WH jumps up and says "ok fine tomorrow morning I will not do anything else everything can get put on hold and I will answer all your questions." Counselor says that sound reasonable to me and then he suggests something for me to say that will stroke his ego for it. I think at 2 1/2 yrs he better put that ego in check. Anyways I said "HELL NO." AND WALKED OUT. We now have another appointment in 1 week. He does not have all my questions since deleted them so this should be interesting to see how he plans on doing this. I'm sorry but after he has shown me in so many ways he thinks he can run recovery the way he wants to suit him he has another thing coming. Like I should be grateful he is here and didn't leave the marriage. I feel I have lost enough behind his behavior it's time for baby boy to put on the big boy pants and act like a man accept the consequences. I am sick of having to do all the hard work while he charms the MCs and ICs who think he is so sweet etc. I'm the bad one I am full of anger and hurt not "moving past it" or "letting it go." I feel like this is my bottom line and has always been my bottom line. This is the deal breaker for me he either does it or doesn't of course now it's been so "long ago." If he had done this from day one like I asked he wouldn't have this problem, yet at that time he couldn't remember things either. Here is the key for me, He doesn't remember the things that happened between them when where how etc etc BUT he knows for sure what didn't happen. That makes no since to me. I say bull. I am standing my ground on this. Day to day life goes on just fine He is not talking about this and it is not going to happen his way. Man I was really agree to the point I had stream flowing from my nostrils and ears. :banghead:


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## clipclop2

That pisses me off. They do that all the time. You ask, they deflect, etc. They say they can't remember your questions. You write them down. They ignore them anyway. They always ask you to tell them again or write them again and they NEVER follow though.

ARGH!!!!

Man, I am with you there.


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## jupiter13

I don't get it how can someone want to work on the marriage when they don't want to do anything that puts them out. Just being there and showing up is not constructively repairing damage. "Sorry, lets move forward" just does not work for me. There has to be some missing part in their brain to be that dense. To think that the only thing that got broken was a marriage vow that the repercussion that betrayal brings is a lot more than just going to bed with someone else.


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## cpacan

jupiter13 said:


> I don't get it how can someone want to work on the marriage when they don't want to do anything that puts them out. Just being there and showing up is not constructively repairing damage. "Sorry, lets move forward" just does not work for me. There has to be some missing part in their brain to be that dense. To think that the only thing that got broken was a marriage vow that the repercussion that betrayal brings is a lot more than just going to bed with someone else.


It's okay to rant, that's what this site is also for, I suppose. 

It seems to me, that getting the truth is very important to you - why isn't it a dealbreaker, then? Why spend all those $ on MC if he isn't willing to do the one thing that matters most to you?

You know he knows that you won't go anywhere, don't you?


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## calvin

He should be willing to answer ALL questions openly and honestly,"stroke his ego"??
Good God,hell no.
Sounds like yu guys need to look into another counselor.
If CSS had acted like that I would have bailed on the R real quick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

Refuse to be played said:


> Wise but still so f##king frustrating sometimes. I find myself irritated that I'm happy at times. Or get resentful when I see her happy. I didn't use to get like this. I'm my own buzzkill sometimes.


thanks for mentioning this -- i know what you mean! i annoy myself so much when i take away my own happy moments.

so what is happening to me when i do that? i ask myself why i need to undo my happiness sometimes. everyone is different, but here is some of the internal dialogue for me:

it's almost like a part of me feels like, when i let myself just be happy, if i really _really_ go there, then i am saying that none of it mattered. like, now it's all just okay. 

but what about what i went through? what about all those lies? what about how i lost my mind? so it's all just supposed to be okay now? is that what my happiness will signify, that my pain didn't matter?

and if fWH begins to be happy again too, does that somehow mean that he "got away with it"? does it mean that he was able to do this ruinously terrible thing, and now it's all just sunshine? Shouldn't it still matter?

and if both of us really _really_ go forward, if i can't count on that little reserve of suspicion and anger to keep me vigilant, aren't i just setting myself up to be hurt again, to go through it all again?

parts of this i sort of understand and parts i don't. i have been aware for a while that i have this lingering terror of being deceived again. i have almost a phobic reaction to the possibility that i'm being lied to about anything, even something trivial. this has gotten better with time and i think it will naturally continue to get better.

the other parts are less clear to me. there is something deeply sad and painful connected to the mattering/not mattering part, almost like i will lose myself, like my _sel_f will just dry up and blow away if it didn't matter.

almost like, if something so devastating can happen to me and it doesn't matter, then what am i? nothing? a piece of furniture?

here i think to myself, this is where having a remorseful WS is once again key to the healing of the marriage -- because my fWH is willing (as are so many of the WSs here) to affirm and reaffirm again that it _does_ matter and that his commitment and transparency are real and permanent. he thanks me in those difficult moments for giving the marriage and him another chance. he also allows me to know about the pain that his behavior causes _him. _i see that it wasn't an experience of getting away with something -- it was an experience of hitting bottom for him, of not wanting to look at himself in the mirror, and he has used it as opportunity to really grow as a person and as a husband. 

p.s., i need those opportunities too. i also made mistakes in our marriage, and i know what it's like to disappoint myself and other people and to need another chance.

so of course it mattered, all of it, all the suffering, all the disrespect, all the pain we both experienced, the destruction to our marriage, the destruction to his image of himself. it was real, it was overwhelming, it was our tragedy. 

okay, fine -- but in the meantime, the clock is ticking. how much longer do I need to live in the tragedy? how much longer do i want to keep blowing up my own happy moments as a way of reassuring myself that my pain mattered and that nobody got away with anything? a few more years? forever?

so like most things, this is all easier said than done  and i expect to find myself still spending a little time in the tragedy every week -- but more and more, i want to chase it away and choose happiness.


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## bfree

margrace said:


> thanks for mentioning this -- i know what you mean! i annoy myself so much when i take away my own happy moments.
> 
> so what is happening to me when i do that? i ask myself why i need to undo my happiness sometimes. everyone is different, but here is some of the internal dialogue for me:
> 
> it's almost like a part of me feels like, when i let myself just be happy, if i really _really_ go there, then i am saying that none of it mattered. like, now it's all just okay.
> 
> but what about what i went through? what about all those lies? what about how i lost my mind? so it's all just supposed to be okay now? is that what my happiness will signify, that my pain didn't matter?
> 
> and if fWH begins to be happy again too, does that somehow mean that he "got away with it"? does it mean that he was able to do this ruinously terrible thing, and now it's all just sunshine? Shouldn't it still matter?
> 
> and if both of us really _really_ go forward, if i can't count on that little reserve of suspicion and anger to keep me vigilant, aren't i just setting myself up to be hurt again, to go through it all again?
> 
> parts of this i sort of understand and parts i don't. i have been aware for a while that i have this lingering terror of being deceived again. i have almost a phobic reaction to the possibility that i'm being lied to about anything, even something trivial. this has gotten better with time and i think it will naturally continue to get better.
> 
> the other parts are less clear to me. there is something deeply sad and painful connected to the mattering/not mattering part, almost like i will lose myself, like my _sel_f will just dry up and blow away if it didn't matter.
> 
> almost like, if something so devastating can happen to me and it doesn't matter, then what am i? nothing? a piece of furniture?
> 
> here i think to myself, this is where having a remorseful WS is once again key to the healing of the marriage -- because my fWH is willing (as are so many of the WSs here) to affirm and reaffirm again that it _does_ matter and that his commitment and transparency are real and permanent. he thanks me in those difficult moments for giving the marriage and him another chance. he also allows me to know about the pain that his behavior causes _him. _i see that it wasn't an experience of getting away with something -- it was an experience of hitting bottom for him, of not wanting to look at himself in the mirror, and he has used it as opportunity to really grow as a person and as a husband.
> 
> p.s., i need those opportunities too. i also made mistakes in our marriage, and i know what it's like to disappoint myself and other people and to need another chance.
> 
> so of course it mattered, all of it, all the suffering, all the disrespect, all the pain we both experienced, the destruction to our marriage, the destruction to his image of himself. it was real, it was overwhelming, it was our tragedy.
> 
> okay, fine -- but in the meantime, the clock is ticking. how much longer do I need to live in the tragedy? how much longer do i want to keep blowing up my own happy moments as a way of reassuring myself that my pain mattered and that nobody got away with anything? a few more years? forever?
> 
> so like most things, this is all easier said than done  and i expect to find myself still spending a little time in the tragedy every week -- but more and more, i want to chase it away and choose happiness.


I wanted to quickly respond to this. What has happened and continues to happen does not change. It is what it is. But you do decide how you handle and process it. It matters but it doesn't have to consume your life. Each and every experience we have adds to our knowledge. That cannot be changed so you did not suffer in vain. I have a spinal condition. I am in pain each and every day. Some days are worse than others. But for the most part nobody knows how much pain I'm in or that I'm in any pain at all. I am always happy. I always joke around. That's a choice. I know my life is wonderful, not despite the pain I have but including it. I am alive. I get to see sunsets. I get to play with my children. I get to eat great food. I get to watch shows I enjoy on TV. I AM ALIVE!

You have gone through a lot but everything you went through adds to your collected knowledge. You have grown as a person. One of my little sayings that truly p!sses people off is that there are no such things as problems...only potential solutions. But it's true. Your pain matters but it doesn't prevent you from finding happiness. And here's the thing, when you are happy people around you tend to be happy people. And those that want to wallow in their misery just seem to fade away. They don't want to be near you because you are doing something they wish they could do but are unwilling to make that choice.

My first marriage taught me not to trust anyone 100%. It was the single most valuable lesson I have ever learned. We are all human. We are going to screw up. We are going to hurt those we love. Sometimes we are going to do this on purpose. It just is that way. But you can be vigilant and not be miserable. You can be trusting and not be foolish. You learned you can be deceived. You learned to be wary of being lied to. Great! That's a healthy way to process what happened to you. But it doesn't mean you cannot trust anyone. You can trust but with the knowledge that there is the possibility of deception. It's not black and white. I used my newfound knowledge to vet my wife before marriage. I was able to take a step back and make a more logical decision based on what I really want rather than some half-assed romantic split second notion. And it's worked out great for me. That's using a bad experience for a good purpose.

You have gone through a very difficult time. But you have learned and grown. Your husband has also learned and grown. Neither of you are the same people you were before all this happened. And if you both CHOOSE to use these experiences as positive valuable lessons then you both will be better off whether together or apart. He has not gotten away with anything. Unless he is a sociopath, and I doubt you'd be with a sociopath, he has lost a little bit of himself during this process. His internal image of himself is forever altered. He sacrificed part of his soul. How he chooses to replace that lost part of his soul will say a lot for him going forward. If he fills that void with positive energy then he, and you if you stay together, will be better off. See, that's the great thing about us humans. We can do terrible unspeakable things. But we also have the capacity to forgive and atone. It doesn't undo what happened but it turns it from a tragedy into a victory.


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## margrace

bfree said:


> I know my life is wonderful,not despite the pain I have but including it. I am alive. I get to see sunsets. I get to play with my children. I get to eat great food. I get to watch shows I enjoy on TV. I AM ALIVE!
> 
> ...You have gone through a very difficult time. But you have learned and grown. Your husband has also learned and grown. Neither of you are the same people you were before all this happened. And if you both CHOOSE to use these experiences as positive valuable lessons then you both will be better off whether together or apart. .


awesome and deep. thank you


----------



## Refuse to be played

Thank you margrace and bfree.

It's just so hard to let go of that resentment and anger. I don't want or expect her to be miserable all the time but occasionally when we're having a good time together it just hits me and ruins it. My IC thinks that this is very common when a relationship was good before any cheating. BS in that position are afraid to let their guard down, that it happened once.


----------



## bfree

Refuse to be played said:


> Thank you margrace and bfree.
> 
> It's just so hard to let go of that resentment and anger. I don't want or expect her to be miserable all the time but occasionally when we're having a good time together it just hits me and ruins it. My IC thinks that this is very common when a relationship was good before any cheating. BS in that position are afraid to let their guard down, that it happened once.


I know how hard it is to release resentment. But resentment is a poison that only hurts you. And just think about this. She is only happy because of you. Her happiness is your gift to her. And forgiveness is a gift you give to yourself.


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## Refuse to be played

Just a musing but is it harder to R when your marriage was good pre-affair? When both spouses can say overall they loved each other and were happy. Wasn't perfect but nothing is. We were happy and things could've only gotten better. IDK

I want to stay happy, I really do but something always comes along. I'm sick of this roller coaster.


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## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Just a musing but is it harder to R when your marriage was good pre-affair? When both spouses can say overall they loved each other and were happy. Wasn't perfect but nothing is. We were happy and things could've only gotten better. IDK
> 
> I want to stay happy, I really do but something always comes along. I'm sick of this roller coaster.


 R is hard no matter what brother,maybe unless your marriage totally sucked ass but you still need
some time.
Notice the way she looks at you,listens to you,leans on you and admires you for this once
in a lifetime gift you are giving her,I bet you can see the appreciation in her eyes.
As long as she is doing eveything she can you will notice after awhile how the happy times increase and the
lows slowly fade to the point where you are generally happy most of the time.
The two year mark is where I saw a turn for the better for us.
Its a long slow process and you have to slog through it.
It will happen though,I thought I was going to feel miserable forever.
Let yourself be vunerable a little bit,let the guard down some and let her in.
Hang tough man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TBT

Refuse to be played said:


> Just a musing but is it harder to R when your marriage was good pre-affair? When both spouses can say overall they loved each other and were happy. Wasn't perfect but nothing is. We were happy and things could've only gotten better. IDK
> 
> I want to stay happy, I really do but something always comes along. I'm sick of this roller coaster.


I don't usually post here as I never reconciled,but I do find your question interesting. Hope you don't mind my own musing.

I think I would have found it a harder R if the marriage had been good pre-affair. The whys would become much more of a focus and what areas would I look for meaningful change. Also I think my mindset would be that it went off the rails when things were good,so what happens when things get tough.

Anyway,I do hope things work out for you both. Take care.


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## IPoH

Hey waywards, how do you boost your personal moral when things feel hopeless?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whip Morgan

I tried to understand why my ex fiancée cheated. I asked if our relationship was so bad, why would she agree to marry me? Why stay and cheat? She told me she was happy with me. That she loved and wanted to marry me. Then if it was so good, why cheat? One of her answers was that she just got caught up in the feel-good part of the OM chasing her. That she knew it was wrong but she still couldn't resist. 

In comparison to many here, my story is not nearly as awful. You could say I'm lucky I found out before I married her and dodged a bullet. And I did. Still hurts to get your heart ripped out. But of course I drove myself crazy trying to understand why... Some cases, like E1, I understand d. But others... No. I don't think we betrayed will ever fully understand how they could do this to us. Besides the obvious answer , which is that they wanted to,and they enjoyed it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IPoH

Wm, I'm not sure if this will help or not. The most terrible part of it is that you are an innocent bystander in the destruction of infidelity. At least in my case, I wasn't thinking of the effects my actions would have on Moment, I was thinking about myself and only myself, I made choices based solely on what I thought was going to make me happy without concern for anyone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

[QUOTE*] By IPOH*
was thinking about myself and only myself, I made choices based solely on what I thought was going to make me happy without concern for anyone else.[/QUOTE]



Yes, Almost every infidelity boils down to pure selfishness.

In almost every case with infidelity it boils down to you (WS and BS) diligently working on yourself to get better body, mind, spirit, and emotions in order to get better.

Wasting time putting the WS down only adds to the fire and does no good in most cases.


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## EI

Whip Morgan said:


> I tried to understand why my ex fiancée cheated. I asked if our relationship was so bad, why would she agree to marry me? Why stay and cheat? She told me she was happy with me. That she loved and wanted to marry me. Then if it was so good, why cheat? One of her answers was that she just got caught up in the feel-good part of the OM chasing her. That she knew it was wrong but she still couldn't resist.
> 
> In comparison to many here, my story is not nearly as awful. You could say I'm lucky I found out before I married her and dodged a bullet. And I did. Still hurts to get your heart ripped out. But of course I drove myself crazy trying to understand why...* Some cases, like E1, I understand*. But others... No. I don't think we betrayed will ever fully understand how they could do this to us. Besides the obvious answer , which is that they wanted to,and they enjoyed it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It does give me a small measure of comfort when I read things like this, but at the same time, I do want to make one thing very, very clear. Because I "understand" why I had an affair, (meaning that I am very cognizant of the depression, the hopelessness, and the defeated state of mind that I was in when I engaged in my adulterous relationship) I have hope that one day I will be able to feel the same degree of compassion for myself, that I am easily able to feel for others, and that I will be able to find total healing and true forgiveness for myself. But, "understanding" does not equal "justification." Because, if it did, then I would have nothing to forgive myself for. I understand why I did what I did. But, that does not make it justifiable. Nor does it eliminate the pain that it has caused B1, our children, and myself. 

If I don't respond to every post, anymore, it isn't because I don't care deeply for every one of you, because I genuinely do. It is simply because I am dealing with my own reconciliation and recovery and it is very time consuming and emotionally draining. It's the personal "recovery" part that is so time consuming and emotionally draining. To be honest, my reconciliation/relationship with B1 exceeds anything that I ever imagined it could. He has been nothing short of amazing. Without trying to sound too corny, he is my Knight in Shining Armor. I don't write this on this thread for B1's benefit. Except for the very rare occasion, he no longer reads or posts on TAM, anymore. Although, he is very actively involved in his own personal healing and recovery, and in our marriage. He has simply found that, for him, it is best to keep his focus solely on us, and not get, too, emotionally involved in the troubled relationships of others. 

Once, again, I have to say that he is my world. We have been through and have endured a lot of hardships and challenges in our adult life. It has taken its toll on us. But, nothing, and I mean nothing, EVER broke me the way I broke when I believed that, despite my truly exhaustive efforts to "fix" our pre-A marriage, there was no fix, no hope, no future. I believed that Rich was broken, and that my choices for our life were responsible for that. He didn't have the strength, the drive, the will, the motivation, or desire to rise above it. He felt he had no fight left, within himself, and was only able to "accept" the circumstances we were living in as our lot in life. He thought I should, or would, too. I couldn't. We were, both, such broken people. At that point, we took opposite paths. One of us took the "Fight" response and the other took the "Flight" response. You might have different opinions on which one of us took which response. I know the answer for myself.

I could go on and on, but I going to stop with this. Tomorrow, I will be fulfilling a dream that I have had since I was 9 y/o. My father was a paratrooper during World War II. He had 22 total jumps, with 3 of them being during combat. I am going to skydive, in my father's memory, tomorrow afternoon, at 3:00 p.m. B1 will not be skydiving (because he is a skeerdy cat)  but, he will be watching and cheering me on. B1's sister's boyfriend will be skydiving, tomorrow, as well. He's 48 and has stomach cancer. His prognosis is between another 1-3 years, with a 90% fatality rate. So, we're gonna start living like we're dying. 

Finally, as we shared with you guys, last year, B1 and are going to renew our wedding vows, on our 30th wedding anniversary in June.

Take care,
~EI

*"So it's not gonna be easy. It's going to be really hard; we're gonna have to work at this everyday, but I want to do that because I want you. I want all of you, forever, everyday. You and me... everyday." - The Notebook*


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## Refuse to be played

I'm a bit jealous...I always wanted to sky dive. Have fun and if anyone deserves a happy ending movie style it's you two.


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## Whip Morgan

EI,
You've always been open in acknowledging that you were not trying to justify your affair and that is a credit to your character, the new you in your R. I identified with your story because it reminded me of my mother.

She was the primary caretaker for a loved one, which was incredibly stressful, demanding, and exhausting, which is not in any way the fault of that loved one. Just part of life. She also had a miserable marriage - very similar to what you described B1's former behavior. I suspect my mother cheated at one time, but I never asked, and nor will I. 

I give credit to you for your efforts in rebuilding your marriage, as well as to B1. He needed to change, also. I saw first hand the experience of a person who was alone in life, as her "life partner" essentially abandoned her, yet lived in the same home. Added to the stress of every day life was the round-the-clock caretaking duties...I have a great respect for my mother, as I do you. 

With three combat jumps, was your father in the 82nd Airborne? Have fun!


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## joe kidd

This what I can't get out of my head. He entered her repeatedly . Every hole many times. Eats me alive. I'm so damn angry all the time. I want to drown in a bottle .


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## EI

joe kidd said:


> This what I can't get out of my head. He entered her repeatedly . Every hole many times. Eats me alive. I'm so damn angry all the time. I want to drown in a bottle .


Joe, you can drown yourself in the bottle tonight, but when you wake up tomorrow, you'll be no better off than you were tonight, and you might be a lot worse off. I don't have any answers for you, I wish I did. But, until you quit self-medicating (i.e. killing yourself) with alcohol, you'll continue to go nowhere..... fast. In the meantime, you, Pidge, and your children all continue to suffer. I'm not trying to lay all of this at your feet. But, as far as your excessive alcohol consumption goes, you are the ONLY one who is in a position to do anything about that. 

I'm so sorry that you and and family are in so much pain.


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## EI

Whip Morgan said:


> EI,
> You've always been open in acknowledging that you were not trying to justify your affair and that is a credit to your character, the new you in your R. I identified with your story because it reminded me of my mother.
> 
> She was the primary caretaker for a loved one, which was incredibly stressful, demanding, and exhausting, which is not in any way the fault of that loved one. Just part of life. She also had a miserable marriage - very similar to what you described B1's former behavior. I suspect my mother cheated at one time, but I never asked, and nor will I.
> 
> I give credit to you for your efforts in rebuilding your marriage, as well as to B1. He needed to change, also. I saw first hand the experience of a person who was alone in life, as her "life partner" essentially abandoned her, yet lived in the same home. Added to the stress of every day life was the round-the-clock caretaking duties...I have a great respect for my mother, as I do you.
> 
> With three combat jumps, was your father in the 82nd Airborne? Have fun!



Again, thank you. It really does mean a lot to me when I know that there are people who try to understand that WS's are thinking, feeling, hurting human beings, just like everyone else, and not simply WS's. I don't even know what else to say except thank you.

Daddy was in the 503rd Airborne, The Rock. He fought in the battle of Corregidor Island. He and his 5 brothers served a combined total of over 140 years. Between them, they served in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. My Dad's last surviving brother passed away last September. He was a POW in Korea. 

I can't wait to jump tomorrow. When I was nine, my Dad and I rode "The Racer," a wooden roller coaster at Kings's Island, in Ohio. Daddy was 49 at the time. After we rode it, Daddy said that he would never take his feet off of the ground, again. I said, "Daddy, you jumped out of planes in the war." He said, "I was a young man, then, but never again." I told him, that day, that before I turned 50, I would jump out of a plane. I said that if he could do it, so could I. I'm 49, the same age Dad was when he "took his feet off of the ground" so his only daughter could ride the "scariest" roller coaster, ever! I'll be skydiving in Ohio, just a few miles away from King's Island, and that same wooden roller coaster, The Racer, that still runs today. I wish Daddy could be there. He passed away 10 years ago, this coming August.


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> This what I can't get out of my head. He entered her repeatedly . Every hole many times. Eats me alive. I'm so damn angry all the time. I want to drown in a bottle .


 Her heart belongs to you joe,pidge has said quite a few times she loves you.
No one else has ever had her heart,just you.
I wish you guys would get on the counseling,it will help you both.
You guys are still in my prayers and I know all the @#%*#@ praying we have
done will pay off.
Its not impossible to repair things brother.
Keep trying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

If anyone is serious about R then that means the WS needs to look at themselves and see that hurt they caused their family. if the BS has decided to forgive then it is time to look at the fauls both put in the marriage with MC. It is mainly the WS that needs to look at what they have done and their faults. Then they must make big changes with themselves. They need to feel happiness within themselvea and not look to others to fulfill that. I am a renewed person. I am a good wife and mother. I always had it in me yet failed because I was dependent on calvin all the time to make me happy. Now I see all the ways I need to improve on to keep our marriage going. So tired. Goodnight all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

EI is going to skydive!!!

I admire EI for many things but now I can add one more. I have always wanted to hang-Glide but for various reasons never got around to it. Now I am way past 50 and you get much more conservative when you get older at least I have. I am no longer a thrill seeker or a daredevil but I am going to live vicariously through EI!


*Can’t wait t get EI’s description of her jump!!*

Hey, here is a thought. For all of you that can not get rid of constant triggers and constant thoughts of cheating, go jump out of a plane that is thousands of feeet up in the air. I bet you will not have any triggers or cheating thoughts on the way down!!!


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## bfree

CantSitStill said:


> If anyone is serious about R then that means the WS needs to look at themselves and see that hurt they caused their family. if the BS has decided to forgive then it is time to look at the fauls both put in the marriage with MC. *It is mainly the WS that needs to look at what they have done and their faults.* Then they must make big changes with themselves. They need to feel happiness within themselvea and not look to others to fulfill that. I am a renewed person. I am a good wife and mother. I always had it in me yet failed because I was dependent on calvin all the time to make me happy. Now I see all the ways I need to improve on to keep our marriage going. So tired. Goodnight all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll totally agree except for this part. Once you get beyond the infidelity BOTH spouses equally contributed to the marriage difficulties and BOTH spouses need to grow stronger and greater. You want a stronger marriage, you need TWO strong people giving equally. When both spouses are putting in the effort the results are almost miraculously fulfilling.


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## frank29

joe kidd said:


> This what I can't get out of my head. He entered her repeatedly . Every hole many times. Eats me alive. I'm so damn angry all the time. I want to drown in a bottle .


Hi Joe i cannot help you in your pain but i do know that there is no answer in a bottle i know i have been their i stopped in time before anything bad health wise happened i watched two of my very good friends go that way and suffered badly with all sorts of complaints in the end both going yellow liver complaints and then gone greatly missed and had so much to offer to all so look around you and see how much pain you will cause not only to your family but to all your good friends here on TAM but life in general you will be surprised I have trodden that road it is no fun but nor is liver cancer but good friends are i do wish you the very best that life has to offer so forget the bottle and grab life 
Frank


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## WorkingOnMe

It's hard to pretend like you're reconciling when you're clinically sexless. How could you not think about everything she gave to him and won't to you. I don't know exactly what that is but it's not reconciliation.


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## pidge70

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's hard to pretend like you're reconciling when you're clinically sexless. How could you not think about everything she gave to him and won't to you. I don't know exactly what that is but it's not reconciliation.


I was going to pm my response to you but, screw it. Joe likes to drink and post and make me out to be worse than I already am.

Resentment is a love killer and a sex killer. 

1. Joe and I had an agreement that he wouldn't drink more than a 6pk on the weekends. He has broken that promise repeatedly. After Dday he drank daily. Things got broken, I was called all kinds of lovely names, where our 1yr old son and 10yr old daughter could hear.

2. When I had to have my craniotomy, Joe opted to sleep for a few more hours instead of immediately coming to the hospital where I was scared out of my mind. I would die without the surgery and I could have died during the surgery. 

3. I asked Joe if he could text me first once in awhile. He did it for the OW. Would talk to her till his damn phone died. I apparently don't deserve the same consideration. 

4. He pretty much always puts his job before us. When something happens with one of our kids, I am always the one that changes my work schedule to take care of things. 

5. There have been quite a few occasions when he has drank while being the only one in charge of our children as well. 

I have more but, right now I am beyond pissed. You people have no idea what goes on here except for some random drunken posts by Joe.

I'm over it.


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## WorkingOnMe

I believe he is just as much or more to blame. But it's still not reconciliation. Doesn't matter who's fault it is.


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## pidge70

WorkingOnMe said:


> I believe he is just as much or more to blame. But it's still not reconciliation. Doesn't matter who's fault it is.


You say that yet you keep harping on the sex issue. Like I said, I'm over it. I tried to be a better person and it didn't matter. I gave up. To those that say if you change, the other person will too, I call BS. Joe doesn't want to be happy and I am tired of being the bane of his existence.


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## pidge70

> *You want a stronger marriage, you need TWO strong people giving equally. *When both spouses are putting in the effort the results are almost miraculously fulfilling.


I completely agree with the bolded. As for the last part, I'll have to take your word for it.


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## WorkingOnMe

pidge70 said:


> You say that yet you keep harping on the sex issue. Like I said, I'm over it. I tried to be a better person and it didn't matter. I gave up. To those that say if you change, the other person will too, I call BS. Joe doesn't want to be happy and I am tired of being the bane of his existence.


See, to me, that sounds like you're saying the reconciliation isn't working. It's not real. Which is the same thing I've been saying. I harp on the sex because it's a symptom of what is happening. I get that you're tired of being the bane of his existence, and I don't blame you for that one little bit. What I don't get is why you're still there.


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## Mr Blunt

> *Originally Posted by joe kidd *
> This what I can't get out of my head. He entered her repeatedly . Every hole many times. Eats me alive. I'm so damn angry all the time. I want to drown in a bottle .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Originally Posted by WorkingOnMe *
> 
> It's hard to pretend like you're reconciling when you're clinically sexless. How could you not think about everything she gave to him and won't to you. I don't know exactly what that is but it's not reconciliation.
> 
> 
> 
> *By Pidge*
> I was going to pm my response to you but, screw it. Joe likes to drink and post and make me out to be worse than I already am.
> 
> Resentment is a love killer and a sex killer.
> 
> 1. Joe and I had an agreement that he wouldn't drink more than a 6pk on the weekends. He has broken that promise repeatedly. After Dday he drank daily. Things got broken, I was called all kinds of lovely names, where our 1yr old son and 10yr old daughter could hear.
> 
> 2. When I had to have my craniotomy, Joe opted to sleep for a few more hours instead of immediately coming to the hospital where I was scared out of my mind. I would die without the surgery and I could have died during the surgery.
> 
> 3. I asked Joe if he could text me first once in awhile. He did it for the OW. Would talk to her till his damn phone died. I apparently don't deserve the same consideration.
> 
> 4. He pretty much always puts his job before us. When something happens with one of our kids, I am always the one that changes my work schedule to take care of things.
> 
> I have more but, right now I am beyond pissed. You people have no idea what goes on here except for some random drunken posts by Joe.
> 
> I'm over it.





After 4 years the above is what your relationship has come to?
*Is reconciliation even possible for those two?*
I like to see reconciliation but I would hate to be the counselor for Joe and Pidge!



Apparently, Joe and Pidge seem to think that R is still possible as they are posting on the Reconciliation thread. I sure hope they are right. They both seemed to have detailed what the main issues are with their posts above. Well at least that is a good sign as they know exactly what is stopping them from R. Identifying the problem is one of the first steps to getting better, right?


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## WorkingOnMe

Mr Blunt said:


> After 4 years the above is what your relationship has come to?
> *Is reconciliation even possible for those two?*
> I like to see reconciliation but I would hate to be the counselor for Joe and Pidge!
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, Joe and Pidge seem to think that R is still possible as they are posting on the Reconciliation thread. I sure hope they are right. They both seemed to have detailed what the main issues are with their posts above. Well at least that is a good sign as they know exactly what is stopping them from R. Identifying the problem is one of the first steps to getting better, right?


I think it's possible. It's not happening right now, but I think it could. I think if it's going to happen, Joe needs to get his ass into AA and stop drinking 100%, and Pidge needs to start putting out. I don't see any way around that. And if neither are willing to budge, then it all just seems like they're wasting their time.


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## jupiter13

I had to share this it is something that is holding on to my heart again and I tear up every time I think about it.
"Yesterday I was helping out with a new client. He has been very sick in fact terminal. He pulled out his wallet and showed me pictures of his wife, their 1st born daughter and the second that requires 24 hour care. He told me how he makes sure his wife has time away to get a break from all she does taking care of their daughter at 26 who is that of a 2 yr. in diapers and she takes care of him. As tears came into his eyes he told me he had prayed to God that he could live just as long as his wife if not as least long enough to make sure she is well taken care of. Then he says in all the 35 years they have been married he has not cheated on her once.

At this point I knew I was going to loose it. How very lucky this woman is to have such a husband that cares for her so much when she is so burdened with so much to take care of. I felt the loss of having a husband that could say that. Even more that his cards can never be signed with those comforting words I once would read. "With great love From your faithful loving husband"


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## pidge70

> Pidge needs to start putting out.


Yes, I could start *putting out* as you so eloquently put it and when he gets pissed at me for whatever reason, he will drink more than the agreed amount. FTR, he isn't an alcoholic. Binge drinker maybe.


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## WorkingOnMe

No he needs to stop.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



pidge70 said:


> Yes, I could start *putting out* as you so eloquently put it and when he gets pissed at me for whatever reason, he will drink more than the agreed amount. FTR, he isn't an alcoholic. Binge drinker maybe.


Binge drinking is a form of alcoholism. I am an alcoholic. I always will be. I've learned to keep strict control of myself but it took years and many failures. Only when I finally decided, really decided, to stop did I in fact stop. And I had to find a replacement, a different way of coping.


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## joe kidd

I didn't do it. Drank 6 while doing yard work and stopped. Had the urge and fought it.


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## calvin

"Putting out" is NOT somethng a gentleman would say.
Come on.
Yes pdge had an affair but joe responded in the worse possible way by having
a revenge affair,all that did was fvck everything up worse.
I thought about it and seperation is not the answer,counseling NEEDS to happen joe and
Pidge,PLEASE GIVE IT A SHOT.
They can do this or they still would not be together and trying.
Joe you must learn how to forgive,providing pidge is doing all she can but you also
Joe,you had an affair also.
You guys are trying to do this on your own and its not working,its time to change
tactics.
Four years after the fact and you both are still together,that tells me something.
It tells me the foundation of love for eachother is still there and all is not lost.
The house my have fallen down but the foundation is STRONG.
Me and CSS won't stop praying for you both and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin

Joe has stated that he has unloaded on pidge many times,yelled,scream,called
Her names and he doesn't know why she is still there.
Pidges response was she is there because she loves him.
I believe she does,I believe joe loves her also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

It is very easy to focus on what someone did wrong. If you want to stay in agony then just keep focusing on what is wrong then you will accomplish your goal. *Waddle in what was wrong and do not do what is right and you will accomplish your goal and become a depressed, emotionally handicapped loser!*

There are enough resources for any one on this forum to get find ways to get better. We live in the internet world and then there are your own community recourses so there is no excuse for not knowing how to get better. *The problem is not that most do not know how to get better it is that they refuse to do the heavy lifting*

There are so many recourses out there that you would have to spend years trying to count them. In fact just right here on this thread there is a lot of very good information that can get you a very good start on recovery. Take B1 and EI, they are making a LOT of progress in less than 2 years. Then there is Mr. and Mrs. John Adams that have THIRTY YEARS of R.

I just do not understand people that choose to waddle in the muck of pain and then not do the right things to get out. 
Can any one explain that?


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## calvin

I don't know if this explains it but I can speak for myself only.
It hurt like a mother and for a long time,after awhile I liked being in pain yet at the same
time I hated it,if that makes sense.
It was what CSS did,actions and words that told me she was true on fixing us,
she was also patient with the questions,honest and though it upset her she was determind to
make us work.
I wanted her to feel the pain...I wanted that bad so I did give her a tast from time to time.
It took awhile for the trust,awhile to fight myself and allow her back in.
I agreed to R and I was'nt holding my end up and I believe that's understandable for a BS but
a time comes where you as a bs have to do the work also,the initial lifting is on the WS but
after a couple years at the least the BS must work side by side with their spouse.
Its complicated with joe and pidge I think because they both fvcked up.
I don't know if what I said makes sense.
I just.....I know the potential is there for this to work out.
Lifes too short.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

Calvin
I understand liking the pain then hating the pain….CHECK

I understand “I wanted her to feel the pain”….CHECK



*But after a few months I decide that I still liked myself and wanted to get better.* I decided that liking the pain only got me morose and wanting her to feel the pain slowly went away. After I got better I did not want her to have pain because it just did not do much for me then. I can understand wanting her/him to feel the pain for months but for years!!! What good would that do for me? 
I am not a sadist or a masochist and will not stay in pain for years!


*I did not want to stay in a constant state of emotional bondage so I got help and did my part and got a lot better. *I love myself too much and wanted to get away from that poison and enjoy life again.



What I discovered is that I could take the pain and use that energy and motivation to improve myself and become more self sufficient. That worked a lot better than using the pain to put my WS down. I am not saying that infidelity does not damage some things for life and it still hurts but very rarely now.

The bottom line as I see it is this:

Work on yourself, improve yourself so that you will know that you are worthy and a good person. Become as self sufficient as possible so that no one can take you down that low ever again. *In other words your future is pretty much up to you and not any one else. Learn about true forgiveness and then forgive your WS because that is mostly for you. Find out what has worked for others in your situation then DO IT!!!*

Some things in infidelity only you and God can do and nobody else can help.


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## calvin

Mr Blunt said:


> Calvin
> I understand liking the pain then hating the pain….CHECK
> 
> I understand “I wanted her to feel the pain”….CHECK
> 
> 
> 
> *But after a few months I decide that I still liked myself and wanted to get better.* I decided that liking the pain only got me morose and wanting her to feel the pain slowly went away. After I got better I did not want her to have pain because it just did not do much for me then. I can understand wanting her/him to feel the pain for months but for years!!! What good would that do for me?
> I am not a sadist or a masochist and will not stay in pain for years!
> 
> 
> *I did not want to stay in a constant state of emotional bondage so I got help and did my part and got a lot better. *I love myself too much and wanted to get away from that poison and enjoy life again.
> 
> 
> 
> What I discovered is that I could take the pain and use that energy and motivation to improve myself and become more self sufficient. That worked a lot better than using the pain to put my WS down. I am not saying that infidelity does not damage some things for life and it still hurts but very rarely now.
> 
> The bottom line as I see it is this:
> 
> Work on yourself, improve yourself so that you will know that you are worthy and a good person. Become as self sufficient as possible so that no one can take you down that low ever again. *In other words your future is pretty much up to you and not any one else. Learn about true forgiveness and then forgive your WS because that is mostly for you. Find out what has worked for others in your situation then DO IT!!!*
> 
> Some things in infidelity only you and God can do and nobody else can help.


 Thank you Blunt,some wise advise.
My post was actually directed at joe and pidge,a little bit at myself also.
It still can sting but for the most part me and CSS are doing pretty good and
I don't think of the A much now.
It was what CSS showed me in our R that I am past the point where I know we are
good,not going to be good or getting there but we're good.
There's still other stuff we need to work on but for the most part the mountain 
climbing is over for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Calvin*
> “I am past the point where I know we are
> good,not going to be good or getting there but we're good”



Calvin
That is very encouraging and I am glad that you and CSS are on this board to give hope!



My post was for Joe and Pidge but also my views on a lot of other coupes that I have read about. *I see so many that are concentrating on the unfairness of infidelity, the pain and the put downs of the other partner that it just seems so destructive to both partners*. As I said I can see that for a while but for years? Not changing that negative approach for years will drag you down in so many ways.


Getting back to Joe and Pidgin, I think Joe and Pidge know what they can do to get better. *Knowing what to do is one thing but then doing it is when things get better.* I hope that they work on THEMSELVES because it is obvious that they have not been successful by lashing out or trying to change their partner. *You can only change yourself and that is when things get better.*


----------



## calvin

Mr Blunt said:


> Calvin
> That is very encouraging and I am glad that you and CSS are on this board to give hope!
> 
> 
> 
> My post was for Joe and Pidge but also my views on a lot of other coupes that I have read about. *I see so many that are concentrating on the unfairness of infidelity, the pain and the put downs of the other partner that it just seems so destructive to both partners*. As I said I can see that for a while but for years? Not changing that negative approach for years will drag you down in so many ways.
> 
> 
> Getting back to Joe and Pidgin, I think Joe and Pidge know what they can do to get better. *Knowing what to do is one thing but then doing it is when things get better.* I hope that they work on THEMSELVES because it is obvious that they have not been successful by lashing out or trying to change their partner. *You can only change yourself and that is when things get better.*


 There comes a time where you have to let it go and work on eachother,lean on eachother and
sometimes carry one of you when the other falls.
You put out some very sound advice Blunt.
I've used it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## margrace

excellent exchange between mr. b and calvin! thank you, thank you 



> calvin: It took awhile for the trust, awhile to fight myself and allow her back in.... but a time comes where you as a bs have to do the work also, the initial lifting is on the WS but
> after a couple years at the least the BS must work side by side with their spouse.


 


> mr. b: After I got better I did not want her to have pain because it just did not do much for me then. I can understand wanting her/him to feel the pain for months but for years!!! What good would that do for me? ...*I did not want to stay in a constant state of emotional bondage so I got help and did my part and got a lot better. *


the estimate of 2 to 5 years for recovery seems to be coming true for me, too. the first year just about killed me, the second year was already much better, and now, as i enter year 3, i am feeling that we are near that place that the two of you describe. 

and like you, i see what my part is: to climb the h*ll out of that hole. when true remorse is being shown (and shown and _shown_) for years on end, it's useless, it's a trap, _it's my own trap_ to stay in the pain forever. 

trying, after years have gone by, to keep a truly remorseful spouse in an endless state of pain and punishment shows that we are still in the hole.

life is too short to keep myself or anyone else in that state of emotional bondage


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## calvin

margrace said:


> excellent exchange between mr. b and calvin! thank you, thank you
> 
> 
> 
> the estimate of 2 to 5 years for recovery seems to be coming true for me, too. the first year just about killed me, the second year was already much better, and now, as i enter year 3, i am feeling that we are near that place that the two of you describe.
> 
> and like you, i see what my part is: to climb the h*ll out of that hole. when true remorse is being shown (and shown and _shown_) for years on end, it's useless, it's a trap, _it's my own trap_ to stay in the pain forever.
> 
> trying, after years have gone by, to keep a truly remorseful spouse in an endless state of pain and punishment shows that we are still in the hole.
> 
> life is too short to keep myself or anyone else in that state of emotional bondage


 Keep plowing ahead Marge,sometimes it seems like you'll never make it but
You guys will,it takes awhile but its worth it,I love CSS crazy and I know I made the right
choice,no regrets about the decision to R anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

I don't know but there is something about keeping the WH in the pain mode, making them see it day after day for as long as possible. While you forgave and forgave, moving forward, listening and compromising for their bad behavior through out the years and you knew you couldn't change them. You could only make available a safe corner of the world for them to address these problems yet they continued to avoid. They treated you as if you were the enemy. They need to see that their behavior has a lasting effect on others. They forgive themselves, move forward without ever noticing that their choices has effected someone else who has to pay the bill they did not even get to enjoy. I feel he needs to see it clearly for what it is and live with it. This entitlement to always be happy and get or do what ever makes you happy is wrong when it effects someone else . So let him see how this has effected me and be sorry be very sorry and if it makes him feel bad about himself Good! He should feel bad. When he finally steps up and does what it is he has been told he needs to do not what he wants to do can true healing begin.


Well I am sick of compromising my wants and needs for his at every turn. While everything I was doing was focused on the best for the marriage as a whole. I was suffering in pain day after day and still kept my eye on the best outcome for us. There was a clear goal in mind no matter what was thrown. I have lost something now that can not be given back, can not be repaired ever. I am angry as Hell about it and I want him to feel the full effects this is having on me. This was not fair. I get it life isn't fair but the WH must see for themselves the consequences of their behavior has a lasting effect on others. Let him see that the things I once had joy in are no longer joyful they are triggers. Let him see that the goals we had are no longer possible as those goals were planned with a faithful, truthful spouse not this person who has shown up thinking they are entitled to the benefits of the marriage they shattered. I'm ranting now. The anger is just as powerful today as it was on D Day but I am more able to focus on just what it is that hurts the most. For once just let me be as selfish as he is. I can only wish I could act on some of things I would like to do but I know they would not be anything more than hurtful an mean so I don't. Isn't it nice they get all the praise for correcting their behavior and acting like they are all that when you know they are not.


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## margrace

oh thank you for that encouragement, calvin!



jupiter13 said:


> They need to see that their behavior has a lasting effect on others... let him see how this has effected me and be sorry be very sorry and if it makes him feel bad about himself Good! He should feel bad. *When he finally steps up and does what it is he has been told he needs to do not what he wants to do can true healing begin*.


hi jupiter:

yes, i agree with you -- WSs do need to see and feel the consequences of their behavior for R to have a chance. and as you suggest, there must be remorse, and there must be active, meaningful, ongoing amends before true healing can begin.

when you say, _when he finally steps up and does it_, it sounds like your WH hasn't done enough work yet. 

that anger that you mention, the anger that is just as powerful as d-day... i felt that too. but finally my WH _really _got it, and really did step up, and he has never stopped stepping up for a single minute, no matter what. because of that, the anger gradually began to lose its hold on me.

*if *your WH gets to this place of remorse and amends, you won't have to be annoyed anymore that he seems to think he is all that just for correcting his behavior, because you will see that he _doesn't._ you will see a man painfully coming to grips with the experience of having hit bottom as a human being. 

it's like with the WSs on this thread: when posters recognize them for their contributions to R, they appreciate it, but there is no enjoyment for them in that praise. they would give anything to not be in a position to receive it.

anyway, that's a big if! i remember all too well the months of false-R h*ll that i lived through after d-day, when my WH was not stepping up... maybe _survived_ is a better word for what i was doing. i am feeling for you


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Margrace*
> the estimate of 2 to 5 years for recovery seems to be coming true for me, too. the first year just about killed me, *the second year was already much better, and now, as i enter year 3, i am feeling that we are near that place that the two of you describe.*
> 
> 
> and like you, i see what my part is: to climb the h*ll out of that hole. when true remorse is being shown (and shown and shown) for years on end, it's useless, it's a trap, it's my own trap to stay in the pain forever.
> 
> 
> 
> trying, after years have gone by, to keep a truly remorseful spouse in an endless state of pain and punishment shows that we are still in the hole.
> 
> *life is too short to keep myself or anyone else in that state of emotional bondage*





Yes I have heard of the 2-5 years for t recovery also. You seem to be right on schedule Margrace, in act you may be a little ahead of schedule. In addition, you are a much needed encouragement to this forum. I read so many on this forum that present so many problems that they think that they will never get out of emotional bondage. 

*Margrace, you are an encouragement and you have a great attitude!*


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## Mr Blunt

On another thread B1 posted again his condition and his attitude with his wife after 18 months of R. If you read the first two years (2012 and 2013) of the Reconciliation thread you will get a very clear picture of what these two had to deal with. You will also read the great strides that EI and B1 have made in just 18 months, I think they are way ahead of the 2- 5 years schedule for reconciliation. The below reprint post of B1 is just one in which B1 has shown they great strides that he and his wife have made after infidelity. If you read B1’s and EI's posts you will see great pain but even greater victories. *There is a wealth of information for those that really want to learn how to gain in R from both B1 and EI*


What I am hoping by reprinting the post below by B1 is that the BS and the WS of this forum will read about B1 and EI so that you will know that R is possible. I know that not every couple can R, some situations are doomed. However, if two people want to R then B! and EI have demonstrated the correct attitude and actions that need to be taken in order to make great strides in your relationship. I know they only have 18 months of R but they are so far ahead at 18 months that I see no reason why they van not turn 18 months into 18 years.

*For those of you that your situation is conducive to R then you have no excuse not to improve*. At their own admission B1 and EI’s marriage was in shambles and so emotionally devastating for years before the affair. The affair was not a one night stand and they had tons of stuff to overcome.


*For those that have the abilities to R but choose to not get educated and not do the work that is required you have no excuse to remain in your misery. *




> *By B1*
> I am very proud of my wife in more ways than one, and I know her father would be proud of her too. This jump has made her so incredibly happy and I am so glad she got to do it. It's nice to see her so happy and so full of life.
> 
> *Next up is our 30th anniversary, we are re-newing our vows in June. *
> 
> I can't imagine a life without EI now, Oh I did 2 years ago, and I saw it without her, but I made a choice to dive head first into this R and I am so glad I did. It was so worth all the hard work WE poured into this R and our lives.
> 
> Life is good and I am what I wanted to be, happy. No, life is not always happy, but whose life is. Overall, I am happy and *I am very happy to have EI by my side.*


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## joe kidd

She told me her friends don't even ask her to do things anymore because they know she will say no. 
I told her to go out . If she is silly enough to cheat again she knows what will happen. 
Btw , her exile from social events is her own. 
Go see your friends woman!


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## bfree

joe kidd said:


> She told me her friends don't even ask her to do things anymore because they know she will say no.
> I told her to go out . If she is silly enough to cheat again she knows what will happen.
> Btw , her exile from social events is her own.
> Go see your friends woman!


Maybe she is trying to help you to not trigger. Maybe she is concerned for your happiness and well being.


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## joe kidd

bfree said:


> Maybe she is trying to help you to not trigger. Maybe she is concerned for your happiness and well being.


Maybe but everyone needs time away.


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Maybe but everyone needs time away.


I think bfree is right here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Well even tho Calvin never told me I cannot go out with friends, I don't because I feel he might trigger even if he doesn't think he will. I just don't wanna take that chance. I don't want him to worry because I love him so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy7111

to me it a lie that you tell yourself to stay together there is no real r because you cant never forget you can forgive but you cant forget and it well always eat at you. I don't thank you can ever really trust that person again. but four those that try I prey for youll and I hope the best for youll


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## calvin

sammy7111 said:


> to me it a lie that you tell yourself to stay together there is no real r because you cant never forget you can forgive but you cant forget and it well always eat at you. I don't thank you can ever really trust that person again. but four those that try I prey for youll and I hope the best for youll


 Forgive,yes.Forget...probably never but it loses the bite it once had as long as your spouse
Moves Heavan and Earth to make it right again.
Trust? It pretty much comes back,I still feel a little funny when she's texting but I know better.
I have not checked her phone or anything else in months,I don't feel the need to anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Trust isn't an issue. She knows that what has happened will not be tolerated again. At least on my end. I don't know if she trusts me or not.


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## joe kidd

All I know is I love her or I would be by myself.


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## Refuse to be played

As usual Fridays are my day off so I took today to do something FG would appreciate in the backyard. Due to everything last year her garden that her mom and her planted by the deck and the side of the house went unattended to last year. It was something they worked real hard on when we bought the house so she considers it special and I knew it bothered her that it looked like crap. Just spent all afternoon cleaning out 2 years worth of leaves, twigs, and weeds. Let her consider it thanks for the night out she put together for my birthday the weekend before last.

So yeah we're doing a bit better again. Otherwise I wouldn't have even bothered with all that.


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## calvin

I saw POS in his work truck toda,urge to go after him is fading,trigger was short lived.
I know what I have waiting for me at home and that's what's important to me.
Trust isn't much of an issue,like joe said I know I love her,she loves me but I would
never go through it again and I know I won't have to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

calvin said:


> I saw POS in his work truck toda,urge to go after him is fading,trigger was short lived.
> I know what I have waiting for me at home and that's what's important to me.
> Trust isn't much of an issue,like joe said I know I love her,she loves me but I would
> never go through it again and I know I won't have to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Proud of you.


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## Refuse to be played

calvin said:


> I saw POS in his work truck toda,urge to go after him is fading,trigger was short lived.
> I know what I have waiting for me at home and that's what's important to me.
> Trust isn't much of an issue,like joe said I know I love her,she loves me but I would
> never go through it again and I know I won't have to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good for you Calvin. I'm still NO WAY near the point where I could do that.


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## joe kidd

3 yrs out and would still pound the **** out of the *****.


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## calvin

Refuse to be played said:


> Good for you Calvin. I'm still NO WAY near the point where I could do that.


 Already went after him a few time he ran,don't need him to hit someone,he almost has.
He ran from the fights he set up with me.
If I catch him by surpise one day I don't know how that will go but I have a good idea.
Me and CSS are doing very well,to me R is mostly the BS proving they are worth the risk,the love me for me,
not what I can do,its also about me working on myself,always room for improvement.
If I forgive,I can't kinda forgive.I'm in or out.We have a son and daughter and they know,I want them
to take a lesson from all of this.
There's more but if anyone has doubts,give it time...a lot of time,it might be the wisest
investment you ever make.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jupiter13

Hello everyone long time gone BUT WH packed and out the door his wedding ring on my hand. Don't know where he went and clearing up the house after he trashed everything. Oh well nothing a good hot bath won't fix. I know I pushed him too far I know I did not let up about my questions. When I finally got a picture of her 20 years younger and look 30 years older than me it was "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?" OMG I am so ashamed of this but I could not let it go and he won't talk about it. I have called my son and my daughter is here to help clean. I do not know what has happened to the loan we were getting for buying the new house and I guess we won't be doing that either. I am sad I am sad he did not have the balls to stand up and help me he was not able to be truthful. I am sad he don't have the balls to stand up and fight for us or protect me. He said he was committed to see me through this he is only committed to seeing himself through anything or run away form responsibility. It will be s long night but the sun will come up tomorrow.


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## Regret214

It's been a long time, and I've been lurking the boards lately trying to help where I can, and I wanted to give a little update on Dig and I.

Since our move to Florida, things have changed for the better so much. We are so happy living here in the sunshine! I am teaching for a wonderful district and Dig...well, Dig is out trying to save the world as usual.  He works in private security and does so in the "hood". His drive is to get people to change their idea of their worth, all while walking around until 3am wearing his gun, keeping the bad people out of his properties and making sure no harm comes to his residents.

I'm enjoying my first year in the school and have some good kids, but it is a totally different atmosphere than Upstate New York. Most definitely a paradigm shift! I love my kids and I work hard to make sure they succeed.

Dig and I together have done so much to heal the wounds that I caused our marriage. For those who know him, Dig still suffers a trigger now and then, but there is usually a long time between them. It gives him hope and my wish is that those in reconciliation can be comforted in that thought. Although we did something drastic like moving 1300 miles away from our former home, it's something that each of us has the ability to make happen if we want to. Don't ever settle.

We went on our first real date night last week. Dig took a Friday night off and my parents were in town for Easter. It was so much fun. We went to dinner and then to a couple nightclubs to watch some live music. Both of us enjoy music, and the place we went had a great 80's rock cover band. AC/DC, Poison, Motley Crue, you name it and they played it. We got home around 1:30am!!! Something we haven't done in years. It was good for both of us. Especially, when we got home!! 

I hope all of you who are attempting reconciliation understand the long and winding road you are on. As Dig often says, "There's no GPS or map. You just have to find your own way and sometimes take a machete and cut your own road."

Take care everyone. We think of you often.


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## happyman64

I have seen you posting Regret and I think you and Dig often.

Be glad you moved. Downstate NY where I live had over 5' feet of snow this winter.

Give my regards to Dig.

Keep fighting the good fight with and for each other.

HM


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## Regret214

Dig says "Hey HM!!!"

We are extremely happy we moved when we did, because we got messages almost daily throughout winter telling us how bad it was. On the flip side, our kids rode bikes and scooters to school every day and maybe wore pants a total of 10 days during "winter" here!

We promise to keep fighting the good fight, most especially for each other.


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## clipclop2

Sorry to he about his leaving but more about trashing the house. I dint know what that constitutes. Making a need collecting his stuff? Deliberately throwing things and breaking them? 

Both are not good. Lots of people leave without fanfare and without punishing the other spouse. If the latter I hope you photographed everything. 

You are entitled to answers. He chose to protect himself and her. What did he really expect? If you chose another man's feelings over his, would not want answers? If you had sex with another man would he not want answers? Nobody can feel secure living with such a mystery. Marriage should not promote insecurity.

I think you will be better without him.

But I expect he will return all sad sack.


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## clipclop2

What do you mean " downstate" happy man? You know everything that isn't the city is upstate! Drove me crazy when I lived in Orange County.


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## Regret214

People, people. Upstate is Albany and north you silly geese. LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

There was and maybe still is a Facebook page called Orange County is Not Upstate!

I will grant you that where I lived was the sticks. Truly beautiful. But a stone's throw from NJ. How upstate can that really be? It sure isn't the Canadian border!


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## Regret214

LOL. Isn't that the truth! We lived in true Upstate like 40 miles north of Albany. I will say though, that the Catskills are very beautiful. Most people have no idea how scenic N.Y. really is. They can only think of Manhattan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Want2babettrme

Regret214 said:


> LOL. Isn't that the truth! We lived in true Upstate like 40 miles north of Albany. I will say though, that the Catskills are very beautiful. Most people have no idea how scenic N.Y. really is. They can only think of Manhattan.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Winters are a lot easier here in the sunny South aren't they? I grew up near Chicago, Il and now live in Georgia.

Glad to hear you and Dig are doing well.


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## Regret214

Winter is non-existent in Central Florida. We LOVE IT!! 40+ years in the Empire State was enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteveK

clipclop2 said:


> What do you mean " downstate" happy man? You know everything that isn't the city is upstate! Drove me crazy when I lived in Orange County.


As an account executive who lives in Orange and covers the entire state, it cracks me up when Long Islanders and even some Rockland county folks call Orange County the sticks or upstate. 

You want to see Appalachia in Drive around the areas outside Oneonta. You want to feel upstate go to Watertown .


Now that's upstate. Interestingly some clients in the city's like Rochester and Buffalo regard the central area from Binghampton to Utica to being Appalachia, full of hicks etc..

I guess if your north of the city have more then five acres and some wildlife then "your Upstate"


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## happyman64

SteveK said:


> As an account executive who lives in Orange and covers the entire state, it cracks me up when Long Islanders and even some Rockland county folks call Orange County the sticks or upstate.
> 
> You want to see Appalachia in Drive around the areas outside Oneonta. You want to feel upstate go to Watertown .
> 
> 
> Now that's upstate. Interestingly some clients in the city's like Rochester and Buffalo regard the central area from Binghampton to Utica to being Appalachia, full of hicks etc..
> 
> I guess if your north of the city have more then five acres and some wildlife then "your Upstate"


I call it downstate because our area is weighted down by taxes.


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## jupiter13

I am loosing it again
I am full of resentments for everything I have forgiven in the past and moved on from when maybe I shouldn't have. Now this and how this alone has affected me so deeply. Yea this one was the worst he could have ever done. In MC I have now been asked why I can not move forward and forgive him. I say well he lied here and he lied there. MC asks well that was how long ago? Less than a year." "But he is not doing it now?" "no." "well then lets go from here." MC says I am the hardest woman he has ever had in counseling toward her husband. WH is a very charming funny guy and I am feeling once again that he is not being made to tow the line and do the hard work he should have done. Even WH says he can not be my healer it is too much for him. I cry we are doomed and everyone says no not at all just move forward from today. AM I missing something here? My resentment has turned to a very bitter pill I swallow everyday. There are questions still unanswered and MC does role play says a 6 month period and expect the worst of everything. As MC plays my WH it is funny. So when does WH have to confess and answer the questions honestly? Am I so terrible for not accepting what ever he has to say and letting it be? I ask again what has WH lost? He says he lost my trust and love bla bla bla...... I say no he did not loose anything he was not willing to loose when he made his choice. He lost nothing. He has answered to nothing. He has been mean and ugly when he should not have been while I trigger and MC says move on from here.? I am repeating myself and I still do not get it. What the hell am I getting out of this? Bills paid? Love? comfort? security? What? MC says we are still together this far for a reason. WH says he couldn't live without me I am his rock. Well hello!!! I am still waiting for him to make this change and now I know he will never make it. One thing I did really learn was he values nothing. There has never been anything in his life that he has wanted so much that could not be replaced. People places and things are all replaceable. If it breaks throw it away and get another one. IF the relationship is not making you happy walk leave. It has always been about me myself and I my needs my wants to hell with anyone else. How can someone be raised like that? Was my family so poor that when something was broken we fixed it, maybe more than once and anyone in our life had value simply because they were another human being that has feeling too. I am confussed again and not liking what my head and heart are telling me. Monday I start PTSD sessions. Maybe it will help and then again what if I get worst again. My own fears are keeping me prisoner and I can not rely trust even show WH my real feelings anymore. HE takes things almost always wrong claiming I am rejecting him when I am sitting there feeling rejected by him. Yet we go all night not talking cause he won't say anything leaving me once again to pull teeth to get at "What is bothering you?" Sorry I got to letting it out again. I am so tired of all this and with the new house being nothing but problems having to be out of this house end of month I so wish to put everything into storage and just hit the road for a while but business will not let you do that responsibilities all the time. Everyone everybody's needs before mine. When do I get to be important to the people in my life?


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## russell28

Jupiter..

Your head and your heart are telling you that your WH isn't willing to work for what he wants. He chose to cheat, now he needs to either deal with the ramifications, your broken trust, fears, pain etc.. and not try to gloss over them, minimize what you feel and threaten you by telling you that you needing him to repair the damage he caused is "too much". Telling you it's too much, in your current state of mind, is like telling you that you're not worth the effort. F him.

He needs to show he's trying to change, and that's not by being the same selfish jerk he was being when he cheated on you.

I'm getting all the hard work from my WW, and I still feel full of resentments, I'm still full of anger, and I'm still in pain.. the difference is that I can tell her about it, and she doesn't make me feel like I did something wrong, she apologizes for me having to feel that way. That's the only reason I'm still with her, and even then how do I believe it's sincere? 

Of course you are rejecting him, he rejected you in a horrible way.. wtf does he expect.. He claims you are rejecting him? Did he try to hug you, and you pushed him away? Did he buy you roses, and you declined the delivery? He should be asking if you're okay, if there's anything he can do for you.. not worrying about his own sorry ass, and how he's feeling rejected... He should be jumping through hoops right now to make you NOT feel rejected. I know I felt pretty rejected for the half a decade while my wife was cheating on me, I'm guessing you've gone through some rejection feelings too.. Your WH sounds like he's a special snowflake. He gives you the ultimate rejection, then wants to know why you can't get over it, then tells you how he feels rejected because you can't pretend and lie to yourself like he does.

Sometimes I read these posts and think, this person doesn't need MC, or IC, they just need to get away from this person that's making them think they have problems, when in fact they are perfectly normal aside from marrying a selfish, manipulative and deceitful person.


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## Regret214

MC's by their very definition are there for the _marriage_ part of it and sometimes have no clue as to the depths infidelity wrecks it. They will always tell you to move forward from today. "How do we move forward?" It's a terrible question that made me feel horrible about Dig's feelings. We finally found a great MC who was willing to not work in that respect. Then again, she was certified with the Marriage Buster group and had a much better idea of what she was doing.

MC's do NOT have automatic certification to deal with infidelity. As a matter of fact, from what I've read, a lot of them do more harm than good. Although, from what you have written, it would be tough for your husband to want to change.

Your husband sounds extremely selfish and ego driven (at one time I was). I mean, for him to say that it's "too much" to try to help you heal is the biggest line of crap I've read. I _still_ work every single day to make sure Dig is okay and open up to him. Yes, it can be tough sometimes but all of the stuff we've gone through has been *MY FAULT*. It's because of the choices and decisions I made and it is up to me to be instrumental in helping Dig work through it and heal.

I can't believe he thinks it's okay to act like that.


----------



## harrybrown

Jupitor-

So sorry that you are in so much pain.

I do not know, but i thought you had to at least have the wound heal some to have a scab, and that you can not rug sweep with the wound still bleeding. 

Is your PTSD with the same counselor? It might help to have IC to work on your pain. But you will not heal unless your H, the one responsible for your pain, helps you heal. If he can't answer the questions that you need, and be remorseful and helpful, you will not be successful. I think both partners have to be working on the marriage. Sometimes it can be easy, but many times it takes hard work. 

You might have to try a different counselor. I do hope you find success in your marriage and your life.


----------



## russell28

BS: hey, that heart you ripped out, can you help me pick it up and put it back in.. and also help with that knife you stuck in my back?

WS: that sounds like a lot of work.. you're asking quite a bit of me. You're my rock.


I'm sorry you're going through this Jupiter. It's painful to read your post, sorry if I'm harsh.


----------



## Regret214

It took me a while to find this, but I think considering what Jupiter is going through, it would be appropriate. 




SomedayDig said:


> I don't know if you share your posts on TAM with your wife, Russell...but if you do - please have her read this.
> 
> My name is Dig. I'm actively in reconciliation with my wife, Regret214 since our Dday 3/6/12. The last almost year has been difficult, but not that bad compared to the first 5 months. Even though we had agreed to try to reconcile, I always had a nagging voice in the back of my head after she initially came clean. Well...I kinda forced her hand in coming clean by catching her that night I found the hotel receipt in her email. I never suspected anything.
> 
> So, she came clean and told me of her 5 year long affair. She assured me "I knew everything". Until 4/22. Then, "I knew everything". Until 5/5. "Then I knew everything". Well, until 6/24. That's when I got the truth and "knew everything".
> 
> Until finally on 8/30 when I walked out because it was the last and final trickle truth. See, the trickle truth wasn't about other guys or anything like that. It was simply questions that I had asked that she tried desperately NOT to tell me. Why? Because she didn't want to hurt me.
> 
> Did you hear that?!!
> 
> She LIED to me because she didn't want to HURT me.
> 
> Guess what waywards?! You've already hurt us e-f'ng-nuff by having an affair with someone!! Jesus H. Christ (my apologies everyone but it bears righteous fury)!!! Do you NOT understand the basic idiocy of what you're doing to us when you trickle truth stupid sh-t?!!
> 
> STOP!! Stop it right the f-ck now!
> 
> You are killing ~ and I mean absolutely KILLING any chance of reconciliation with someone who was good enough to give you another go at your marriage. The absolute MINIMUM that you owe is the truth.
> 
> Every single time you allow this cycle to continue you force the betrayed spouse back to DAY F'NG ONE!
> 
> Quit being selfish. Quit letting YOUR ego control these stupid things and LET IT GO! Give your spouse the respect that you failed to give them with your idiocy in your affair. I think they've f'ng earned it by keeping your ass around.
> 
> 
> Edit to add: This is for EVERY wayward spouse to read. Not just Russell's.


----------



## russell28

I'm in a rage phase... It might come across in my tones.. I apologize. I'm hanging tough tho, I'm waiting it out.. thanks to TAM I know to not over react and wait it out. It's been a few weeks now.. probably the 1 year thing and easter set it off... that post above was from Fathers day last year. She gave me much info that day.. It hurt like hell, but it stopped the daily questions..


----------



## Regret214

I remember Dig writing that and asking me if it was okay. He was always worried about going overboard and having his posts just right.

The one year frame is tough. I can say that the second year was much easier on us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ifweonly

Gabriel said:


> This is interesting. I will say this - and it's very hard to admit it, but catching my wife falling for another man woke me the hell up. I ignored her pleas for years, but it took me reading an email saying she dreamed of him every day for me to realize just how much I had been neglecting things.
> 
> The ensuing time was extremely painful. If I had not seen the email, she would have fallen further and further for him, probably consumated it in a PA, and I would still be half-assedly trying to make things okay between us, none the wiser. She would have been past the point of no return.
> 
> But I caught it very early, reached down into the abyss full of muddy garbage, grabbed her finger and started pulling her up. Eventually, I got the hand, then the arm, and now she's out of the hole, even though she's still got some mud on her.
> 
> Is our marriage better now? In some ways yes. We have more honestly, she is emotionally re-engaging with me, and I her. In other ways it's worse, because I don't feel as safe. I've lost my innocence.
> 
> Bottom line is nobody can answer this question for anyone else but themselves.


I got bashed real hard in another thread when I said something like " It often takes two -- both the offending spouse and the non-offending spouse to create the environment for an affair to happen". I am not blame shifting but just realistic. 

Gabriel, I am very glad that there was a realization on both parts that things needed to be addressed. I just pray that this works out for both of you and real growth and love blooms!


----------



## russell28

ifweonly said:


> I got bashed real hard in another thread when I said something like " It often takes two -- both the offending spouse and the non-offending spouse to create the environment for an affair to happen". I am not blame shifting but just realistic.
> 
> Gabriel, I am very glad that there was a realization on both parts that things needed to be addressed. I just pray that this works out for both of you and real growth and love blooms!


It often does take two to create the environment.

My wife, she helped create it by being flirty, not understanding boundaries.. not respecting herself or her marriage, and letting people disrespect her and her marriage, by being cold and pushing me away, by getting close to a guy at work knowing how dangerous friendships with people of the opposite sex can be, decided to pursue it further and eventually sleep with him and sneak around with him, lie to her family and risk getting me STDs etc.. etc..

Me... I trusted her, thought she was giving me the same respect I was giving her. I was too nice to her, and never really questioned stuff like her putting her family before me. I was naive and thought she felt a strong love and admiration for me like I did for her. I was silly to think she'd have my back like I always had hers when confronted with temptation. I should have seen that she'd do the same thing her mother and grandmother did, and shouldn't have trusted that she'd be any different.

So yea, I'll take some blame for the environment. I made things way too easy for her. I was too nice. I shouldn't have told her I'd take her over a supermodel, or bought her flowers. I should have treated her like a ****t or a *****.. that's what I guess she really wanted.

Also, it takes three for an affair to happen.. not two. 

One of the two, allowed that third party in. That is the critical item that is most important when speaking of "creating" environments. One person is aware of all the facts, the other is living in confusion and paranoia. It's easier to make good decisions if you're informed and not being manipulated and deceived. In the case of the 'two', if one is being honest, and one is being deceitful.. then there's an obvious imbalance.


----------



## Q tip

ifweonly said:


> I got bashed real hard in another thread when I said something like " It often takes two -- both the offending spouse and the non-offending spouse to create the environment for an affair to happen". I am not blame shifting but just realistic.
> 
> Gabriel, I am very glad that there was a realization on both parts that things needed to be addressed. I just pray that this works out for both of you and real growth and love blooms!



It works for me! Next time I am caught speeding, I'll blame the passenger, or maybe the spouse at home. Maybe even the OM/OW spouse. What a coincidence. Now it's 2/3 everyone else's fault. Including the OM/OW 3/3 everyone else's fault. 

I'll get out of the ticket for sure!

That's what's called juvenile thinking. Well, that's what the cop said. I just tried it.


----------



## jupiter13

QP---LOL

Thank you all for your comments I actually feel validated. I know I have to move forward heck we just signed a bid for the new house. He actually gave up the house he liked for the one I liked. I guess that is a sign he is being more considerate of me. The kitchen is not what I would like and he immediately went into fix it mode, checking out all the possible ways to change expand knocking out a wall etc. This is same old pattern as before to me. HE will pour all his time into the house repairs or changes and I will never see him until he wants attention: by that time I will be into my own thing or asleep. This is when the feelings of rejection will set in. So I see the whole thing happening again. Told him so, he says no way I am the most precious thing in the world to him now, before he was to blind to see I truly loved him for him. What a jerk. I am seeing another IC for the PTSD. We will start addressing this issue Monday. After seeing a picture of the OW i am blown away and actually can accept the drugs and availability was most likely a major part of it. MC pointed out that I can not make him change or seek change it's only within him. Hello isn't that part of my condition for remaining together that he seek help with his issues? Sometimes I feel like I am talking to brick walls. I allowed him to wear his wedding ring today but took it back. He loves to wear his ring I simply reminded him he gave up his right to my ring and devalued the one he gave me. They are only for special occasions like high heels and dress pants. Yes life goes on I am not going anywhere and I will work out my issues even if he does not. Once moved I am launching my own business in the quilting field that I have had on hold for years as life gets in the way. Not any more for me I am taking charge of my life and if it bothers him well too bad "get over it." :rofl:


----------



## Forever Grateful

Hey everyone it's been awhile since we've posted here. RTBP and I are doing well. Overall he seems happier and is a lot more open than he was back during Jan to March. I have my best friend back.  We still have our moments though and I know we will for a long time but overall things are good again. 

Tomorrow is our 5th anniversary so I'm excited about that. A while back we talked about insignificant an anniversary can be to a BS and I know we should think of our relationship going forward as a new marriage with a new anniversary date for a fresh start. But despite my actions the old date and marriage still hold value to me. So I'm glad RTBP is letting me take him out to dinner tomorrow and maybe for drinks after.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> Hey everyone it's been awhile since we've posted here. RTBP and I are doing well. Overall he seems happier and is a lot more open than he was back during Jan to March. I have my best friend back.  We still have our moments though and I know we will for a long time but overall things are good again.
> 
> Tomorrow is our 5th anniversary so I'm excited about that. A while back we talked about insignificant an anniversary can be to a BS and I know we should think of our relationship going forward as a new marriage with a new anniversary date for a fresh start. But despite my actions the old date and marriage still hold value to me. So I'm glad RTBP is letting me take him out to dinner tomorrow and maybe for drinks after.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy anniversary to you both.
Keep on keeping on,you guys will be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Headspin

jupiter13 said:


> I am loosing it again
> I am full of resentments for everything I have forgiven in the past and moved on from when *maybe I shouldn't have*. Now this and how this alone has affected me so deeply. Yea this one was the worst he could have ever done. In MC I have now been asked why I can not move forward and forgive him. I say well he lied here and he lied there. MC asks well that was how long ago? Less than a year." "*But he is not doing it now?*"
> 
> _*(Whaaat!)*_
> 
> "no." "well then lets go from here." MC says I am the hardest woman he has ever had in counseling toward her husband. WH is a very charming funny guy and I am feeling once again that he is not being made to tow the line and do the hard work he should have done. Even WH says he can not be my healer it is too much for him. I cry we are doomed and everyone says no not at all just move forward from today. AM I missing something here? My resentment has turned to a very bitter pill I swallow everyday. There are questions still unanswered and MC does role play says a 6 month period and expect the worst of everything. .......MC says we are still together this far for a reason. WH says he couldn't live without me I am his rock. Well hello!!! I am still waiting for him to make this change and now I know he will never make it. One thing I did really learn was he values nothing. There has never been anything in his life that he has wanted so much that could not be replaced. People places and things are all replaceable. If it breaks throw it away and get another one. IF the relationship is not making you happy walk leave. It has always been about me myself and I my needs my wants to hell with anyone else. How can someone be raised like that? ............... Yet we go all night not talking cause he won't say anything leaving me once again to pull teeth to get at "What is bothering you?" Sorry I got to letting it out again. I am so tired of all this and with the new house being nothing but problems having to be out of this house end of month I so wish to put everything into storage and just hit the road for a while but business will not let you do that responsibilities all the time. Everyone everybody's needs before mine. When do I get to be important to the people in my life?


Jesus wept 

That's not reconciliation thats purgatory 

He doesn't deserve you imo. I have to be simple and straight that's it. 

He deserves nothing but keeps getting everything. Some of them simply will never ever feel the gravity of their actions hence why should they 'suffer' consequences 

Good luck............because with him looks like you need it it in bucket loads


----------



## calvin

Anyone hear from bfree lately?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## owl6118

Forever Grateful said:


> But despite my actions the old date and marriage still hold value to me. So I'm glad RTBP is letting me take him out to dinner tomorrow and maybe for drinks after.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a monumental gift of setting aside his feelings out of love for you. The symbolism of that day is not the same for him now as it is for you. Setting aside his understanding of its changed meaning to acknowledge your desire to honor its original value is sacrificing something huge. I am a little in awe that he can do it.

Please, show him you understand how huge a gift of love this is. I suspect it cost him dearly to do it.

I am very glad to hear he is feeling better and tou are doing better together. I wish you only good things in your new life together.


----------



## calvin

I sometimes wonder if a WS really understands the chance a BS is taking in giving this gift.
I feel in most cases they do.
I say this becauseI wonder if CSS really understands the hurt and the chance I'm taking.
I think she does,its my decision and I feel its worth the risk even if the risk is .0000000000000000000001/2%.
For me I want to keep our anniversary when we exchanged our vows,that might sound weird but
that's what I feel more comfortable with,to change it would seem weird to me.
Oh well,we are doing pretty decent and I hope the rest of you are.
Keep doing what you're doing FG,he needs more time yet.
Happy Mothers Day to all you Moms
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



calvin said:


> Anyone hear from bfree lately?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm still around. Haven't been as active on TAM lately. I'm starting to follow some good advice and putting myself as high on my priority as I put everyone else. So I've been doing a lot more things for myself. It's been nice. I missed me.


----------



## Forever Grateful

calvin said:


> Happy anniversary to you both.
> Keep on keeping on,you guys will be fine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Calvin!  We had a pretty good time yesterday!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

owl6118 said:


> This is a monumental gift of setting aside his feelings out of love for you. The symbolism of that day is not the same for him now as it is for you. Setting aside his understanding of its changed meaning to acknowledge your desire to honor its original value is sacrificing something huge. I am a little in awe that he can do it.
> 
> Please, show him you understand how huge a gift of love this is. I suspect it cost him dearly to do it.
> 
> I am very glad to hear he is feeling better and tou are doing better together. I wish you only good things in your new life together.


I do understand how significant him agreeing to go out yesterday was. I greatly appreciated his willingness to go out and I expressed that to him multiple times through out the day. He is VERY strong, one of the strongest men I've ever known and that's one the many things I love so much about him. Thank you very much for the well wishes!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I'm still around. Haven't been as active on TAM lately. I'm starting to follow some good advice and putting myself as high on my priority as I put everyone else. So I've been doing a lot more things for myself. It's been nice. I missed me.


 Good to hear bfree,we missed you also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I'm wiped,lot of 3am starts this week and I was making spaghetti sauce til
Midnight last night,gonna have a house full in a few hours,I need to get it in gear.
Happy Mothers day to all you ladies!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

I think the current rage phase is fading.. two days in a row of not waking up angry. This one was long, and brutal.. and unprovoked, my wife is still showing full remorse and doing and saying all the right things. I was just triggered hard by the 1 year thing, the season, the reminders.. 

Thanks once again to random folks on TAM that helped me talk through my issues. 

That's my short update as I fade back into oblivion since I tend to post less when I'm not as angry, I'll get some yard work done or something more productive. :d


----------



## harrybrown

The anger thing.

Yes it does come and go. 

I still do not know who or many details, so I do not trust anyone.

So I have been working way too much, but some times you have to do what is demanded by your clients. 

So I go to church with my wife. A few months back she was walking in the parking lot, and some single guy comes up to her and is way out of line with how wonderful she is and then I turn the corner and he sees me. I heard everything he said. I find out that they worked together on some "joint assignments" for the church, but supposedly others were around. 

I told her that was unacceptable, but she does not tell him off, that I am crazy, the guy is crazy. I agree that the guy is crazy, he is horrible at taking care of his life and she feels sorry for him. He needs help. I do agree he needs help but not from you. 

So yesterday, I go with her again to church, and she is well aware of how I feel about this situation. So I was sitting next to my wife. I realize that someone is staring intently at the back of my head. I turn and see this guy. I was supposed to go somewhere and he is waiting until I leave to "talk to my wife". So I sit there and sit there. She tells me that I am supposed to leave and I tell her that I am not going to leave. So my wife leaves. (to go powder her nose). 

He goes by to talk about the weather. I was really close to bad anger, but I would have "made a scene" something that my wife would be upset about. 

Some wonderful mother's day. So I followed him and made sure that he was not alone with her, ruined their day. She says nothing is going on with him, he is a loser, can't take care of his life. How could I think of such a thing? 

I feel like when they worked on the joint assignments that I did not know about, that she was kind to him, because he needs help in his life. However, he is a man, probably at least 40-45.

I wish she would be totally honest with me. Keeping secrets is not good for a marriage. 

Even I know this guy is a real loser, but I don't care. He needs to back off hitting on married women, wherever, he meets them.

Sorry for the rant, but it helps to get it out of my system.


----------



## calvin

russell28 said:


> I think the current rage phase is fading.. two days in a row of not waking up angry. This one was long, and brutal.. and unprovoked, my wife is still showing full remorse and doing and saying all the right things. I was just triggered hard by the 1 year thing, the season, the reminders..
> 
> Thanks once again to random folks on TAM that helped me talk through my issues.
> 
> That's my short update as I fade back into oblivion since I tend to post less when I'm not as angry, I'll get some yard work done or something more productive. :d


 It will fade,you have a wife who is more than remorseful brother.
That was the key for me,seeing how CSS did what it took and more to make things right.
Hang in there,you may not believe it now but things will be fine.
This is hard no doubt but I see some positive signs with you two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

harrybrown said:


> The anger thing.
> 
> Yes it does come and go.
> 
> I still do not know who or many details, so I do not trust anyone.
> 
> So I have been working way too much, but some times you have to do what is demanded by your clients.
> 
> So I go to church with my wife. A few months back she was walking in the parking lot, and some single guy comes up to her and is way out of line with how wonderful she is and then I turn the corner and he sees me. I heard everything he said. I find out that they worked together on some "joint assignments" for the church, but supposedly others were around.
> 
> I told her that was unacceptable, but she does not tell him off, that I am crazy, the guy is crazy. I agree that the guy is crazy, he is horrible at taking care of his life and she feels sorry for him. He needs help. I do agree he needs help but not from you.
> 
> So yesterday, I go with her again to church, and she is well aware of how I feel about this situation. So I was sitting next to my wife. I realize that someone is staring intently at the back of my head. I turn and see this guy. I was supposed to go somewhere and he is waiting until I leave to "talk to my wife". So I sit there and sit there. She tells me that I am supposed to leave and I tell her that I am not going to leave. So my wife leaves. (to go powder her nose).
> 
> He goes by to talk about the weather. I was really close to bad anger, but I would have "made a scene" something that my wife would be upset about.
> 
> Some wonderful mother's day. So I followed him and made sure that he was not alone with her, ruined their day. She says nothing is going on with him, he is a loser, can't take care of his life. How could I think of such a thing?
> 
> I feel like when they worked on the joint assignments that I did not know about, that she was kind to him, because he needs help in his life. However, he is a man, probably at least 40-45.
> 
> I wish she would be totally honest with me. Keeping secrets is not good for a marriage.
> 
> Even I know this guy is a real loser, but I don't care. He needs to back off hitting on married women, wherever, he meets them.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, but it helps to get it out of my system.


 Oh hell no Harry...not acceptable...at all.
Stand firm and let her know.
Sorry Harry but if my wife did something like this after what I went through the ultimations would be laid
down and not ever allowed to be crossed,not once.
Good luck man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

Hi all,
I need help!
I've started a new thread if anyone is interested
Thx
Xx


----------



## russell28

daisygirl 41 said:


> Hi all,
> I need help!
> I've started a new thread if anyone is interested
> Thx
> Xx


I read your thread, sorry you're going through this. You really have only one option, you can't let him continue to disrespect you and toy with your emotions. I think they call it the 180, time to detach.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Quiet for an entire week?


Oooooooohhhhhhhh no, no, no, no. The reconciliation thread is not a page two thread for TAM. Too much good info in these pages for that.

Bump!


----------



## calvin

Ok,just wanted to break my vacation from Tams and say me and CSS are doing pretty good.
Going back to MC for a tune up and we are going camping this weekend with NO KIDS.
I love being in the woods.....especially alone with CSS.
Hope you're all doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

Weekend update : getting ready for end of month move. Bid on a house has been accepted but paperwork not signed, tonight. Dealing with trickle truth information and it's almost like the day I found out about it in the first place. Keeping as busy as I can. Have a good weekend everyone.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Wow TAM has been a bit more negative lately. This place has been a big help but I can see how it can wear on you after awhile with some of the treads that have been posted recently. Having a good day? Joy kill thread. Having an already down day? One kick in the ribs for good measure. Glad RTBP is on one of his hiatuses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

08/06/2012



ei said:


> to me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> p.s. I love you, b1 <3


08/06/2012



b1 said:


> it means i'll take another chance, i'll open my heart up all over again because i love her that much.
> It means i will meet you were you are in this mess and we will work together from there.
> It means i want to be friends again, not just lovers but best friends.
> It means i want to ultimately put the past behind us and move forward. Not forget the past, but learn from it and move ahead.
> It means i am willing to open myself up again to hurt but fully trusting i will never be hurt like this again.
> It means we build a new improved marriage.
> It means communicating like never before, so we always fully understand where we are in this marriage.
> It means doing away with anger, bitternes, resentment.
> It means making amends.
> It means forgiving.
> It means i am in love you.


02/13/2013



b1 said:


> ei said yes!!!!


02/13/2013



ei said:


> we are going to "get married," again. On june 21st, 2014. It will be the weekend before our 30th wedding anniversary next year. Just the minister, me, b1, the kids, their significant others, and our grandson. We'll marry at bernheim forrest by the lake..... One of b1's favorite places to photograph and only about a 30 minute drive from our home. He "proposed," on one knee, with a 1 carat t.w. Past, present and future eternity band. I am so happy that there are simply no words to describe it. I never imagined that our life would take this kind of turn. I feel immeasurably blessed.
> 
> *now, * if only we could get *dig* to officiate???


02/13/13



acabado said:


> congrats b1
> were you nervous?


02/13/13



b1 said:


> no, not nervous. I was bursting with excitement. You see, i never officially proposed to her some 29 years ago. It was just very unofficial then and not romantic at all. She never got that classic proposal the one she has always deserved. This time around i think i got it right.
> 
> I got her an ipad too and when she opened it and turned it on i had a note that said .. "i love you, will you marry me " i was on my knees and asked her again because she was, i think, stunned.
> 
> It was a very nice moment.


05/26/2014

In just 26 more days, only 2 days before our 30th wedding anniversary, I will be (re)marrying, B1, the love of my life! My wedding dress will be here this week! B1 doesn't get to see it until our wedding day!  Our oldest son will be walking me down the "path." We're writing our own vows. The "kids" are just as, if not more, excited than we are! 

I honestly don't know that we would have made it this far without the love, support, and encouragement of our beloved "Reconcilers!" 

We thank each and every one of you from the bottom of our heart! 

Love,
B1 & EI


----------



## B1

EI said:


> 08/06/2012
> 
> 
> 
> 08/06/2012
> 
> 
> 
> 02/13/2013
> 
> 
> 
> 02/13/2013
> 
> 
> 
> 02/13/13
> 
> 
> 
> 02/13/13
> 
> 
> 
> 05/26/2014
> 
> In just 26 more days, only 2 days before our 30th wedding anniversary, I will be (re)marrying, B1, the love of my life! My wedding dress will be here this week! B1 doesn't get to see it until our wedding day!  Our oldest son will be walking me down the "path." We're writing our own vows. The "kids" are just as, if not more, excited than we are!
> 
> I honestly don't know that we would have made it this far without the love, support, and encouragement of our beloved "Reconcilers!"
> 
> We thank each and every one of you from the bottom of our heart!
> 
> Love,
> B1 & EI





I cannot wait to re-marry you EI. I am so glad we both decided to work the mess we made of our marriage out. I am glad you gave me another chance, as I did you. We are in such a better place now. As time passes and the healing continues, our love grows stronger. Our marriage is all that I could ever want it to be. We are truly moving forward, life is returning to normal. However, normal now is know where near what it was a few years ago or even 5 years ago. 
We have a new normal now, so much better than before. 


I do want to give a shout out to all those that helped and encouraged us along the way. Many of you saw this future before I believe we did. Thank you for your kindness, your wisdom and most of all for your willingness to be a part of our journey. You took the time to post, and to help, and I thank
you all for that.


I Love you EI!
B1


----------



## calvin

God bless you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Why Calvin.

I look forward to reading on this thread that you and CSS have decided to bury old pains and solely focus on a new, much better and deserved future together.

Glad you enjoyed your trip out in nature.

HM


----------



## Mr Blunt

*The below by EI and B1 should be a “Sticky” on the CWI forum*


I do not know how to request this as a sticky to the appropriate TAM authorities so if any of you agree will you make the request?




> 08/06/2012
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by ei
> to me, a true reconciliation means to peel back the layers of resentment, hurt, misunderstandings, bitterness, lies, deceit, betrayal, etc. It means you have to reexamine things that were said and done that shouldn't have been, things that were left unsaid and undone that should have been. It means reopening your heart, mind and soul to the possibility of being hurt, again, but believing that it is worth the risk. It means making amends to those whom you have hurt and being willing to forgive those who have hurt you. It means acknowledging your mistakes and a willingness to be a better person. It means having a desire to recommit to the relationship in the hope and belief that you can make it better than it was before. Reconciliation is so much more than just forgiveness. It isn't just closing an old chapter, but beginning a brand new chapter!
> 
> p.s. I love you, b1 <3
> 08/06/2012
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by b1
> it means i'll take another chance, i'll open my heart up all over again because i love her that much.
> It means i will meet you were you are in this mess and we will work together from there.
> It means i want to be friends again, not just lovers but best friends.
> It means i want to ultimately put the past behind us and move forward. Not forget the past, but learn from it and move ahead.
> It means i am willing to open myself up again to hurt but fully trusting i will never be hurt like this again.
> It means we build a new improved marriage.
> It means communicating like never before, so we always fully understand where we are in this marriage.
> It means doing away with anger, bitternes, resentment.
> It means making amends.
> It means forgiving.
> It means i am in love you.
> 
> 
> 
> By b1
> 5-26-2014
> 
> I cannot wait to re-marry you EI. I am so glad we both decided to work the mess we made of our marriage out. I am glad you gave me another chance, as I did you. We are in such a better place now. As time passes and the healing continues, our love grows stronger. Our marriage is all that I could ever want it to be. We are truly moving forward, life is returning to normal. However, normal now is know where near what it was a few years ago or even 5 years ago.
> We have a new normal now, so much better than before.
> 
> 
> I do want to give a shout out to all those that helped and encouraged us along the way. Many of you saw this future before I believe we did. Thank you for your kindness, your wisdom and most of all for your willingness to be a part of our journey. You took the time to post, and to help, and I thank
> you all for that.
> 
> 
> I Love you EI!
> B1




*I would also like to request EI and B1 to update this sticky every year.*

I have never read such powerful reconciliation for a two year period as B1 and EI.
When the newcomers come to TAM and both want to R then they should be directed to the Reconciliation thread by B1. There they will get brutal honesty and HOPE backed up by ACTIONS!

Frankly I think that TAM desperately needs posts like B1 and EI as they are rare. My guess is that the newcomers may get discouraged by seeing TAM couples that do not turn out like B1 and EI but wind up with a lot of bitterness and hate


I think that for a long term R some the posts by Mr. and Mrs. John Adams should also be a sticky. 

This TAM forum needs to see success and hope for those that are a candidate for R


----------



## sammy7111

The big r is just a lay it's just a way of living with the cheating you can never take back something that happened. And it will allways be own your mind knowing it can happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123

B1 said:


> I cannot wait to re-marry you EI. I am so glad we both decided to work the mess we made of our marriage out. I am glad you gave me another chance, as I did you. We are in such a better place now. As time passes and the healing continues, our love grows stronger. Our marriage is all that I could ever want it to be. We are truly moving forward, life is returning to normal. However, normal now is know where near what it was a few years ago or even 5 years ago.
> We have a new normal now, so much better than before.
> 
> 
> I do want to give a shout out to all those that helped and encouraged us along the way. Many of you saw this future before I believe we did. Thank you for your kindness, your wisdom and most of all for your willingness to be a part of our journey. You took the time to post, and to help, and I thank
> you all for that.
> 
> 
> I Love you EI!
> B1


You are one impressive guy.


----------



## EI

Mr Blunt said:


> *The below by EI and B1 should be a “Sticky” on the CWI forum*
> 
> 
> I do not know how to request this as a sticky to the appropriate TAM authorities so if any of you agree will you make the request?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I would also like to request EI and B1 to update this sticky every year.*
> 
> I have never read such powerful reconciliation for a two year period as B1 and EI.
> When the newcomers come to TAM and both want to R then they should be directed to the Reconciliation thread by B1. There they will get brutal honesty and HOPE backed up by ACTIONS!
> 
> Frankly I think that TAM desperately needs posts like B1 and EI as they are rare. My guess is that the newcomers may get discouraged by seeing TAM couples that do not turn out like B1 and EI but wind up with a lot of bitterness and hate
> 
> 
> I think that for a long term R some the posts by Mr. and Mrs. John Adams should also be a sticky.
> 
> This TAM forum needs to see success and hope for those that are a candidate for R



Thank you, Mr. Blunt. I hope it goes without saying that you have been a tremendous source of encouragement, as well as a steadfast source of strength for us. Your support of us has been invaluable. 

I know that many people have read the glowing posts that you have written to, and about, B1 and me. But, no one has been privy to all of the behind the scenes support that you have given us. 

Even on an anonymous forum, people can be reluctant to share some of the most personal details in their lives. B1 and I have developed several "real" relationships with some of the people we have become "acquainted" with on TAM. One thing I have come to realize, after talking to so many different people, is that _"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."_ - (It is unclear whether this was written by Teddy Roosevelt or John Maxwell.) It's one of my favorite quotes. 

Because you genuinely cared about our well-being, you became our confidant. This allowed us to share our most personal, private, and painful struggles with you. Some of them, even as they were occurring. Your support truly helped us manage some of our most difficult storms. Interestingly enough, some of those storms did not have anything to do with infidelity. But, dealing with them, while coping with infidelity, might have been too much without your ongoing wisdom and encouragement to help carry us through. 

Thank you so very much, Mr. Blunt. I will always believe that: _"Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them." _ - Dalai Lama


----------



## EI

jim123 said:


> You are one impressive guy.


Yes, he is!  He makes me happy. Every. Single. Day.


----------



## As'laDain

B1, EI, you two are awesome. you are both an inspiration to me and my wife. just wanted to say that.

drive on, and may you have clear skies and open canopies ahead.


----------



## calvin

happyman64 said:


> Why Calvin.
> 
> I look forward to reading on this thread that you and CSS have decided to bury old pains and solely focus on a new, much better and deserved future together.
> 
> Glad you enjoyed your trip out in nature.
> 
> HM


 Nothing left for CSS to prove Hm,nothing for me to look for.
Its hard to find a doubt or any reason after two years of being on high alert.
Seek and yee shall find?
Well I did,I found...nothing to make me feel the way I used to.
In a sense I guess I found something,peace.I'm done with worrying,I have been for a
few months but I was'nt sure.
Done,had it,the fat lady has sung (sang?),the cows have come home,chickens never had a
place to roost to begin with,nada,that's all she rode,dead horse has been beat too much.
I just don't doubt her love for me anymore,the senarious I played out in m mind have stopped.
I think we have made it finally.
B1 and EI were a great motivation also,as were others here.
No,I'm done with the worry,I have no regrets.
Happy Memorial day to all of you.
If you served,thank you,thank you for your family that served also.
Without a strong family that's has your back and believes in you,we are lost.
Night all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By EI*
> "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."
> 
> "Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them."




EI has a way of getting to the bottom line and the truth about caring for others, doesn’t she? Not only does she and B1 say the truth they live it! B1 and EI know more about me than my pastor!!! That is because we have walked the same road and we both (me, B1, EI) came out better.


In addition I can not emphasize enough how important your posts (That should be a sticky) are to anyone that is serious about reconciling.

*So EI, if you are still on this board next year will you update?*


B1
Man O Man amigo! You really turned it on!
Ipad message, on one knee, with the 1 carat t.w.
*WOW, if you did that for me I would marry you!!!*

Mr Blunt


----------



## margrace

EI said:


> 08/06/2012
> 
> In just 26 more days, only 2 days before our 30th wedding anniversary, I will be (re)marrying, B1, the love of my life! My wedding dress will be here this week! B1 doesn't get to see it until our wedding day!  Our oldest son will be walking me down the "path." We're writing our own vows. The "kids" are just as, if not more, excited than we are!
> 
> I honestly don't know that we would have made it this far without the love, support, and encouragement of our beloved "Reconcilers!"
> 
> We thank each and every one of you from the bottom of our heart!
> 
> Love,
> B1 & EI


soooo happy for the two of you and for your family! thank you for sharing this with us!

i got to see your posts at the perfect time this morning -- just as i was about to waste time on some of those unwelcome and useless memories of the bad old days. i felt it coming on so i looked up the R thread, and there it was, your wonderful news 

xxx mg


----------



## Forever Grateful

It's been nearly a year since Dday. While there have been a lot of up and downs, I sincerely believe there will be more ups for year2. RTBP is doing a lot better and is happier on a more consistent basis. So that of course makes me very happy.  He is taking summer classes this year but once they're over it's vacation time. We're both looking forward to this summer. My husband loves me and I love him more than I can truly express in words.

Tonight we're cuddled up together on the couch. RTBP is watching the NBA finals. He is still on his hiatus but he says hi to everyone on the R thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

Forever Grateful said:


> It's been nearly a year since Dday. While there have been a lot of up and downs, I sincerely believe there will be more ups for year2. RTBP is doing a lot better and is happier on a more consistent basis. So that of course makes me very happy.  He is taking summer classes this year but once they're over it's vacation time. We're both looking forward to this summer. My husband loves me and I love him more than I can truly express in words.
> 
> Tonight we're cuddled up together on the couch. RTBP is watching the NBA finals. He is still on his hiatus but he says hi to everyone on the R thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Year two was far better for us, we are now heading into year 3 and things are truly returning to normal. So glad to hear you two are doing well.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

B1 said:


> Year two was far better for us, we are now heading into year 3 and things are truly returning to *a new and improved* "normal." So glad to hear you two are doing well.


B1 - hope you don't mind a slight edit to your post above . . . 

And congrats to you guys, for earning every ounce of the happiness you both deserve! Awesome, awesome awesome!!!


----------



## B1

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> B1 - hope you don't mind a slight edit to your post above . . .
> 
> And congrats to you guys, for earning every ounce of the happiness you both deserve! Awesome, awesome awesome!!!


Thank you NH2MR, you are so right. Appreciate the edit.
A new, improved normal is a much better way to put it!! 
:smthumbup:


----------



## calvin

B1 said:


> Year two was far better for us, we are now heading into year 3 and things are truly returning to normal. So glad to hear you two are doing well.


 Excellent you two!
Coming up on two and a half years for us and I know the right decision was mad.
I like happy endings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

B1 said:


> Year two was far better for us, we are now heading into year 3 and things are truly returning to normal. So glad to hear you two are doing well.


Thank you B1. I look forward to hearing about you and EI's 30th! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## As'laDain

my wife and i are at four years post Dday. the old marriage failed. 

im glad we decided to build a new one.


----------



## calvin

Oh speaking of happy endings...where's CSS?
I'll find her soon enought.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jupiter13

I love happy endings and I am so glad it is working out for many of you. Our MC quit says he won't do the many forms the VA wants filled out. WH did not call the VA to get another one started. I am starting the EMDR for myself. We are almost at 3 yr 8/31 but I am triggering about all the dates again this year. In MC I said I could not work on the marriage in less WH was completely answering my questions. He told me to ask him the questions which I did he gave a lot of funny answers. Said no mater what he said just expect and accept that he did everything I imagined and worse. Said I was the hardest woman he ever met on their WH and it's time to move forward. I do not see how I can move forward when I have all these questions and doubts. Same old problem just further down the road. It amazes me WH can sit there and say how happy we are now and everything is wonderful. Like right? For who?


I am currently sitting in a hotel room with 2 cats and a dog. Our house did not clear escrow and then it failed pest inspection. We tried to back out but the owner has now come forward and says no matter what the county appraisal comes up with they will renegotiate the deal. They want to sell no matter what. However we have also located 2another house that may be more to our liking but even that would take another month to get into if we start paperwork today. I do not know how long I can live like this. WH knows it he has never done this kind of living while I had to live like this for many years when working and traveling so it's old news to me. Tomorrow we go to court over his stupid business problems and I am so angry about the whole thing. They offered him a misdemeanor code violation and would drop everything else and he turned it down. No one knows why the DA has a boner for him and I can imagine it has more to do with testosterone than anything else. Life is sure not fun and the tests are too hard for me anymore. If I take on the I careless attitude I get through a lot easier. How cares about what you want or dream there is always someone or something in the way for me. 
Happy summer it's hot as H~ll here...:crazy:


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

When did the BS's here feel like they could really impact their own healing? What helped you reach that realization? We are 18 months out and things have been relatively level. But lately Matt feels he has "stalled out" on progressing. He's tired of being miserable, tired of thinking about the affair, and considering a seperation. I don't know how to help him along the path further. I am transparent, I am supportive. I tell him I love him, I show that I am attracted to him, I thank him for being here with the boys and I.

He is caught in the loop of what he "should have" done 2 years ago. Am I wrong in thinking he has to give that up? That all he's doing is trapping himself in the past? How does seperating now help him feel like more of a "man" two years ago? I will do anything to repair his self-esteem, but I cannot have any meaningful impact yet, it seems. He quit IC in December - his therapist and he decided he didn't need it anymore. He quit our MC in March because he didn't like having a structured time he had to think about the affair. He hates our life, his job, managing the kids, he is sick with bad sinuses, and just "feels old". I try to have conversations about what he would like to do, what might make him happier, but all he says is he wishes he had done things differently in the past.

I'm trying so hard not to be frustrated, but I can't help him change the past. And I don't believe making those choices now will impact his future in a positive way. Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated. I know part is just the time period we are in. It's the second anniversary of "affair season" as he puts it. I just can't believed we have traveled this far and the road is a dead end. Something has to be able to help him improve. I don't believe he will feel this way forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## owl6118

Dear Mrs Mathias--

we have not "met" because I came to TAM shortly after you last posted regularly. But I read your story because I encountered it here in this Reconciliation thread, and this was the thread that helped me most with the problems I came to TAM to get help with.

I can't answer your specific question on when a BS can take ownership of his own recovery, because I am not a BS. Infidelity is not part of my story. I came here to learn how to heal my marriage from the damage inflicted on it during a nearly four-year-long major depression I suffered. I came to learn how to help my wife trust me again after four years of emotional absence. I found that the discussion of healing and amends from infidelity had a lot to teach me about amends in general.

Hopefully some of the wise BSes here will chime in. B1 doesn't post much any more, but I think he might offer some thoughts when this is called to his attention, I don't know. I hope so, because I have huge respect for him.

There is another couple posting here recently whose experience I thought of when I read your question, Mr. John Adams and Mrs. Adams. As I understand it, despite decades of successful marriage after their crisis of infidelity, Mr. Adams came here because something he still needed to fully heal was missing. What he was missing was subtle, and hard to put into words, but as I understand him and Mrs. Adams, it was a sense that Mrs. Adams understood in the core of her being the quality or nature of his pain, and accepted her responsibility for it. She was always sorry. He had forgiven her. But to really heal even after decades he needed her empathy, in a very specific way, that she FELT his particular pain, and accepted responsibility for having caused it, and had remorse not just in general for infidelity, but for his particular hurt, for the particular way she hurt him. I hope I got this right, and if not that they will correct me.

You didn't ask what you could do, but it seems maybe there is something in the Adams' story that suggests something you might do.

I am sorry to be so blunt, but here goes: as I recall all your husband wrote, it was always very clear that one point caused him particular pain--the emasculation he felt due to the fact that you put him into the same space as your OM, sometimes under his own roof, and the OM was able repeatedly to "laugh" at him to his face.

Have you ever discussed this specific point with Matt? Is there something you could do to let him know that you empathize with this very specific humiliation and emasculation, that you understand you inflicted it, and that you have deep remorse? Not just in general, but for having done that very specific and very personal and deep injury?

Because I have a strong sense that this is what he is tripping over--the fact that a callow and boorish young man was allowed, with your cooperation and assistance, to so disrespect and humiliate him.

I hope you don't mind my being so frank. I say this not to reopen old wounds, but because I suspect that this wound is still open, and has never fully closed.

I wish you well. I hope your children are thriving. And I am sorry your husband is hurting.


----------



## calvin

jupiter13 said:


> I love happy endings and I am so glad it is working out for many of you. Our MC quit says he won't do the many forms the VA wants filled out. WH did not call the VA to get another one started. I am starting the EMDR for myself. We are almost at 3 yr 8/31 but I am triggering about all the dates again this year. In MC I said I could not work on the marriage in less WH was completely answering my questions. He told me to ask him the questions which I did he gave a lot of funny answers. Said no mater what he said just expect and accept that he did everything I imagined and worse. Said I was the hardest woman he ever met on their WH and it's time to move forward. I do not see how I can move forward when I have all these questions and doubts. Same old problem just further down the road. It amazes me WH can sit there and say how happy we are now and everything is wonderful. Like right? For who?
> 
> 
> I am currently sitting in a hotel room with 2 cats and a dog. Our house did not clear escrow and then it failed pest inspection. We tried to back out but the owner has now come forward and says no matter what the county appraisal comes up with they will renegotiate the deal. They want to sell no matter what. However we have also located 2another house that may be more to our liking but even that would take another month to get into if we start paperwork today. I do not know how long I can live like this. WH knows it he has never done this kind of living while I had to live like this for many years when working and traveling so it's old news to me. Tomorrow we go to court over his stupid business problems and I am so angry about the whole thing. They offered him a misdemeanor code violation and would drop everything else and he turned it down. No one knows why the DA has a boner for him and I can imagine it has more to do with testosterone than anything else. Life is sure not fun and the tests are too hard for me anymore. If I take on the I careless attitude I get through a lot easier. How cares about what you want or dream there is always someone or something in the way for me.
> Happy summer it's hot as H~ll here...:crazy:


 I'm sorry Jup,it sounds like maybe the counselor was biased anyway,find a different one.
Your husband should be doing almost anything you ask of him if he wants your marriage to make it.
I'l add you to he prayers I say before bed,its a long list but I always got room for one more.
Hang in there Jup.
I'm sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Mrs_Mathias said:


> When did the BS's here feel like they could really impact their own healing? What helped you reach that realization? We are 18 months out and things have been relatively level. But lately Matt feels he has "stalled out" on progressing. He's tired of being miserable, tired of thinking about the affair, and considering a seperation. I don't know how to help him along the path further. I am transparent, I am supportive. I tell him I love him, I show that I am attracted to him, I thank him for being here with the boys and I.
> 
> He is caught in the loop of what he "should have" done 2 years ago. Am I wrong in thinking he has to give that up? That all he's doing is trapping himself in the past? How does seperating now help him feel like more of a "man" two years ago? I will do anything to repair his self-esteem, but I cannot have any meaningful impact yet, it seems. He quit IC in December - his therapist and he decided he didn't need it anymore. He quit our MC in March because he didn't like having a structured time he had to think about the affair. He hates our life, his job, managing the kids, he is sick with bad sinuses, and just "feels old". I try to have conversations about what he would like to do, what might make him happier, but all he says is he wishes he had done things differently in the past.
> 
> I'm trying so hard not to be frustrated, but I can't help him change the past. And I don't believe making those choices now will impact his future in a positive way. Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated. I know part is just the time period we are in. It's the second anniversary of "affair season" as he puts it. I just can't believed we have traveled this far and the road is a dead end. Something has to be able to help him improve. I don't believe he will feel this way forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Mrs.M,
He won't feel this way forever,it may seem that way to him and to you to an extent
but it sounds like he needs more time.
At two years and five months I'm feeling decent and it has a lot to do with what CSS did and
how she has been acting.
Keep doing what your doing but he is also going to have to jump in the drivers seat also.
I can't stop the triggers sometimes but sometimes I can and now they don't last
like they used to.
For me it really was time and by that I mean it was me gauging how CSS level of comittment.
Did I see any red flags that she might do this again? Was she serious about us? Did she love
me for me or what I could provide? Was she slipping back into old habits or were her
changes true and lasting?
There are a lot of variables but if a BS is going to gamble on R ( it is a gamble )
It takes time.
It takes awhile for trust to come back,after a year I could trust her maybe 40%,after a year and a half my
trust level went to maybe 60%....now after two years and a half years I'd say I'm at 90%.
I never will reach 100% like I used to but that's ok,I have learned to never
give that much trust to anyone.
I had to observe CSS over a period of time to make sure I was doing the right thing.
Just keep it up and do what you've been doing,I think he needs to see it over and over again.
He's also going to flip flop some more like I did.
Its a slow process for a BS,its also hard on the BS.
We need proff over and over to make sure we made the right decision.
At least this is the way it was for me.
I have a good feeling about you both,he would not still be trying if he didn't love you
and I can tell you love him.
Thinking of you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

Mrs_Mathias said:


> When did the BS's here feel like they could really impact their own healing? What helped you reach that realization? We are 18 months out and things have been relatively level. But lately Matt feels he has "stalled out" on progressing. He's tired of being miserable, tired of thinking about the affair, and considering a seperation. I don't know how to help him along the path further. I am transparent, I am supportive. I tell him I love him, I show that I am attracted to him, I thank him for being here with the boys and I.
> 
> He is caught in the loop of what he "should have" done 2 years ago. Am I wrong in thinking he has to give that up? That all he's doing is trapping himself in the past? How does seperating now help him feel like more of a "man" two years ago? I will do anything to repair his self-esteem, but I cannot have any meaningful impact yet, it seems. He quit IC in December - his therapist and he decided he didn't need it anymore. He quit our MC in March because he didn't like having a structured time he had to think about the affair. He hates our life, his job, managing the kids, he is sick with bad sinuses, and just "feels old". I try to have conversations about what he would like to do, what might make him happier, but all he says is he wishes he had done things differently in the past.
> 
> I'm trying so hard not to be frustrated, but I can't help him change the past. And* I don't believe making those choices now will impact his future in a positive way.* Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated. I know part is just the time period we are in. It's the second anniversary of "affair season" as he puts it. I just can't believed we have traveled this far and the road is a dead end. Something has to be able to help him improve. I don't believe he will feel this way forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The experts all say it takes 2-5 years to recover any level of trust, that trust includes trusting this part:

_*"I am transparent, I am supportive. I tell him I love him, I show that I am attracted to him, I thank him for being here with the boys and I."*_

He questions your motives, your sincerity, your honesty even if you're doing these things. I'm in a similar situation, and at times you wonder if it's genuine, or just manipulation, because you're not capable of trusting that person yet. History says that this person will mind-f you to get what they want and need, even if that's being on best behavior.. saying the right things etc.. then if things go sour, they might turn on you. It's easy to become paralyzed by fear.

_ "I don't believe making those choices now will impact his future in a positive way."_

If he wants to separate, perhaps you should respect that and tell him you want him to do whatever he thinks he needs to do to help him heal. 

In my case, my wife has told me on more than one occasion that if I need to separate, or to do anything to let her know, that she just wants me to be happy even if that means that I need to leave her to be happy. She'd understand that and wouldn't blame me, she'd blame herself. To me, that's a good answer, but since I'm also in the just past a year time frame, I wonder about the motive and sincerity like I mention above. Right now the one thing I trust in the world, is that my wife is capable of telling me lies to get what she wants. She also tells me she'd wait forever for me to decide, I call bull on that one.. she'd wait as long as it takes to find someone to replace me. How am I supposed to believe stuff like that in my current state of mind? Keep on with all those things you're doing, it'll take time and consistency.. 

You say you're trying not to be frustrated, and I can see where it's frustrating, but remind yourself that he didn't ask for, or want any of this. He might not be the type of person that can get past it, it might just take him some time to detach and realize it as we see play out here often.

Good luck to you both, I hope you get past this.


----------



## joe kidd

Mrs_Mathias said:


> When did the BS's here feel like they could really impact their own healing? What helped you reach that realization? We are 18 months out and things have been relatively level. But lately Matt feels he has "stalled out" on progressing. He's tired of being miserable, tired of thinking about the affair, and considering a seperation. I don't know how to help him along the path further. I am transparent, I am supportive. I tell him I love him, I show that I am attracted to him, I thank him for being here with the boys and I.
> 
> He is caught in the loop of what he "should have" done 2 years ago. Am I wrong in thinking he has to give that up? That all he's doing is trapping himself in the past? How does seperating now help him feel like more of a "man" two years ago? I will do anything to repair his self-esteem, but I cannot have any meaningful impact yet, it seems. He quit IC in December - his therapist and he decided he didn't need it anymore. He quit our MC in March because he didn't like having a structured time he had to think about the affair. He hates our life, his job, managing the kids, he is sick with bad sinuses, and just "feels old". I try to have conversations about what he would like to do, what might make him happier, but all he says is he wishes he had done things differently in the past.
> 
> I'm trying so hard not to be frustrated, but I can't help him change the past. And I don't believe making those choices now will impact his future in a positive way. Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated. I know part is just the time period we are in. It's the second anniversary of "affair season" as he puts it. I just can't believed we have traveled this far and the road is a dead end. Something has to be able to help him improve. I don't believe he will feel this way forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that's the last hurdle. It will be 4 yrs in September and there are still dark times . 
Unfortunately he knows that you were capable of that act, maybe there is a part of him who wonders if you still are. 
During the 1st 2 yrs " I should have just left" was a mantra in my head. She took a lot of hell from me.


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## calvin

I think all affairs are different yet the same,there are different degrees of an A also.
A lot of factors.
I feel the same way when it comes to trying to R,a lot of variables.
Being betrayed....well,words can't describe it.
Its hard to fathom but I do know there are a few WS's who I feel deserve a shot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

calvin said:


> I think all affairs are different yet the same,there are different degrees of an A also.
> A lot of factors.
> I feel the same way when it comes to trying to R,a lot of variables.
> Being betrayed....well,words can't describe it.
> Its hard to fathom but I do know there are a few WS's who I feel deserve a shot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah. Things are much better. One of the reasons is I stopped throwing in her face every time I get pissed. That and I'm not drunk all the time. In fact she read a post I made in the what's for dinner thread and is making spinach with bacon and onions. I haven't had that in years. Little things like that mean a lot to me.


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## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Yeah. Things are much better. One of the reasons is I stopped throwing in her face every time I get pissed. That and I'm not drunk all the time. In fact she read a post I made in the what's for dinner thread and is making spinach with bacon and onions. I haven't had that in years. Little things like that mean a lot to me.


 Good deal joe,I think when I have triggered in the past CSS thought I was throwingage
It in her face,I was'nt but I did during the first year and a half,maybe longer.
The little things can be big things to me also.
Spinach and bacon,keep me a plate warm,be there in seven hours,six if I lead
foot it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

Mrs_Mathias said:


> When did the BS's here feel like they could really impact their own healing? What helped you reach that realization? We are 18 months out and things have been relatively level. But lately Matt feels he has "stalled out" on progressing. He's tired of being miserable, tired of thinking about the affair, and considering a separation. I don't know how to help him along the path further. I am transparent, I am supportive. I tell him I love him, I show that I am attracted to him, I thank him for being here with the boys and I.
> 
> He is caught in the loop of what he "should have" done 2 years ago. Am I wrong in thinking he has to give that up? That all he's doing is trapping himself in the past? How does seperating now help him feel like more of a "man" two years ago? I will do anything to repair his self-esteem, but I cannot have any meaningful impact yet, it seems. He quit IC in December - his therapist and he decided he didn't need it anymore. He quit our MC in March because he didn't like having a structured time he had to think about the affair. He hates our life, his job, managing the kids, he is sick with bad sinuses, and just "feels old". I try to have conversations about what he would like to do, what might make him happier, but all he says is he wishes he had done things differently in the past.
> 
> I'm trying so hard not to be frustrated, but I can't help him change the past. And I don't believe making those choices now will impact his future in a positive way. Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated. I know part is just the time period we are in. It's the second anniversary of "affair season" as he puts it. I just can't believed we have traveled this far and the road is a dead end. Something has to be able to help him improve. I don't believe he will feel this way forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I can tell you that I too sort of stalled out around that same time. The raw pain was gone but the thinking about it was still there, not as much, but questions still came to mind several times a day. I made the choice one day that I had had enough. I was done bringing it up, I was done with talking about it. So, I stopped, and it lasted for about a week. Then I broke, and asked one question, and I felt absolutely horrible, I felt like an addict that fell off that wagon. I did not feel better after asking, EI didn't feel better, I just felt, well, dirty and I regretted
bringing it up. That was it for me, every since, it's been smooth sailing. It happened out of the blue in a way. I'm hoping that will happen with Mr. M.

btw Our 2nd anniversary of Dday past without a hitch, it was actually a great day.

Now, I think where we are different though, Mr. M and I, is that overall, I was and am happy, I just still dealt with thoughts
of that A sometimes, but I was still happy. I knew we were going to make it, that I wanted to make it. I wasn't miserable at all. I hate to hear that Mrs. M. I hate it for both of you. He's struggling right now, he's unhappy and that's not good. I don't think there is much you can do on your end. He has to find his way through this. I know you don't want to loose him now. I hope he can find happiness because if he can't then things are not looking good for you all. I can honestly say though, 2 years is far better than one, and even 18 months. The 2 year mark was huge for us in our healing. 

Please try not to get frustrated with him, I am guessing he cannot help it. He's still stuck in the loop. He has to come out
on his own, that's the scary part for you Mrs. M, will he come out...and if he does, what will he want?


I have shared this before...

One thing that helped me big time was seeing the A as a hole, a big dark deep hole. I was at the bottom, filthy, dirty,
tired, wore out and beat. But, I climbed my way out, I saw myself climb out. Then I grabbed a shovel laying on the ground and started filling the hole up, little by little I saw myself filling the hole up until it was full. Then I packed it down, threw the shovel on top, and walked away, saying.."I'm done." It was emotional and moving for me. That was about the 22 month mark.


*On a side note, it also sounds like he's tired and wore out, I don't know your ages, but has he seen a Dr. lately. Has he had
his Testosterone levels checked? if he's over 40 he should! he sounds physically run down and low T will make you feel that way, and it will take the fight out of you. It will make him want to just give up, or be passive and not be motivated to change.


I wish I had more for you, I know you need answers, I so wish I had something more to say. I don't come around CWI much anymore, but I did today and saw this and felt your pain. 
I also feel his. I just wish there was more I could offer. I'm so sorry and I wish you both the very best.


I know hearing EI say "sorry" meant a lot to me at a times. I didn't need a lengthy apology, a passionate conversation with it, just a sincere "I am so sorry" it went really far with me. She would do this at randoms times, usually once or twice a day. It helped me. She still does it occasionally and it's touching. I also tell her I am sorry too, if you know our story you know why. 

Be patient, kind and supportive, it sounds like you are, just keep it up. Get him to the Dr. too for a checkup. Get some blood work done, check T levels etc. You just described a very
run down husband, it could be medical related. 






Thoughts and prayers your way Mrs. M....


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> When did the BS's here feel like they could really impact their own healing? What helped you reach that realization? We are 18 months out and things have been relatively level. But lately Matt feels he has "stalled out" on progressing. He's tired of being miserable, tired of thinking about the affair, and considering a seperation. I don't know how to help him along the path further. I am transparent, I am supportive. I tell him I love him, I show that I am attracted to him, I thank him for being here with the boys and I.
> 
> He is caught in the loop of what he "should have" done 2 years ago. Am I wrong in thinking he has to give that up? That all he's doing is trapping himself in the past? How does seperating now help him feel like more of a "man" two years ago? I will do anything to repair his self-esteem, but I cannot have any meaningful impact yet, it seems. He quit IC in December - his therapist and he decided he didn't need it anymore. He quit our MC in March because he didn't like having a structured time he had to think about the affair. He hates our life, his job, managing the kids, he is sick with bad sinuses, and just "feels old". I try to have conversations about what he would like to do, what might make him happier, but all he says is he wishes he had done things differently in the past.
> 
> I'm trying so hard not to be frustrated, but I can't help him change the past. And I don't believe making those choices now will impact his future in a positive way. Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated. I know part is just the time period we are in. It's the second anniversary of "affair season" as he puts it. I just can't believed we have traveled this far and the road is a dead end. Something has to be able to help him improve. I don't believe he will feel this way forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not just one thing. You are still in the same place. Work on moving forward with new jobs and new location.

He is in a phase.


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## sammy7111

One comment with this big are way do you all cheated own spouses sound like it's your job to make them stay with you when there the ones that cheated own u.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain

the thing that helped me was seeing my marriage as ended. it was already over. 

by choosing to R, i was choosing to get married to a new woman, just like i did the first time. i chose to go about things differently, but i also thought of her as a different person. i thought of myself as a different person. 

all of the history we had built up was completely gone. i treated it like an arranged marriage. im married to her, and now i gotta learn how to love her. but right now, i cant stand her. so, i focused on learning how to love her and teaching her how to love me. i dont know if its the best way to look at things, but it beats the hell out of lamenting the betrayed trust. i chose to be somebody new, so i treated my wife like she was somebody new.

its been going pretty well so far. besides, i like who i am now better than i did back then.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Thank you all for the thoughts and prayers. I really appreciate the time you took to share your ideas. Matt has said he doesn't think there is anything else I can be doing. But I'm always hunting for something - that right word, gesture, moment that lets him feel how much I care, how truly I love him, how invested I am in seeing him heal. I will accept a seperation gracefully if that is what he truly needs. I am more than aware that seperation and divorce will always be his right and justly deserved by me after what I've done to him. But that does not change my opinion that it will not give him what he seeks. 

The job situation is tough. I have a standing offer for a job in another city. I have searched and interviewed for jobs in other cities than that. Matt has not. I have sent him openings in his current field, I have researched accelerated programs for him to go back to college and change fields, I have talked with him about finding a way financially for him to pursue his freelance work full-time. At the core of things, Matt struggles with change. So I wait for him to be ready. I will go anywhere, do anything to attempt to create a happy future for Matt and my boys. But I can't push him.

I hope this is just another low in the cycle. I pray we can ride it out and reach the rebound. I am trying to help carry the weight with him. As always, I am truly sorry for the pain that has brought you all to this point, but am very grateful that you are willing to share your struggles and hard gained wisdom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain

just love him. thats all you can do. 
remember, you come second when you really love someone else. i challenge anyone to say any different. when i was in iraq, my life came second to that of my soldiers. thats why i was always the first in the door. any one of them would have laid down their life for me. i would die for any one of them. 

so, watch your husband. unless he is actively trying to avoid you, he will likely do things to relax/unwind, etc. make time for those things. 

one thing my wife did that really helped me grow close to her was share my hobby. i like to keep fish tanks. she had no interest when we got married. later on, after the A, she started taking interest. that alone made a huge difference. it opened the door for positive conversation and opportunities for bonding. 

if you can become your husbands buddy, reconciliation will be a lot easier. at least, it worked for my wife.


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## owl6118

You have grown tremendously, Mrs. M. Come what may, that is not a small thing. I wish you both healing.


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## Openminded

The only word of "wisdom" I can give you (as a BS who was in R for 30 years) is that people change and decisions change with them. What is thought to be the path one day turns out not to be the path the next day. That's always true in marriage but we don't notice it as much until we have infidelity in the middle of things. 

I wish the best for you and your family.


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## clipclop2

Personally I would find it insulting if the person who cheated on me believed that divorcing them would not give him the peace he thinks it will. On one hand you say you recognize it is his right to leave after what you have done but on the other you believe that you are the only thing that can make him happy in the end.

It wouldn't matter what kind of show you put on for me, doing all the right things etc. if the attitude I got from you was that you know best and that you have no faith that I (Matt) can make an appropriate decision for happiness that doesn't involve staying married to you. 

You can't fix everything. 

If I were him I would leave. And if in doing so you were to speak out of both sides of your mouth to me I would never return.

The attitude that you know what will NOT heal him (leaving) when you also know that staying is not healing him blows my mind.


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## Mrs_Mathias

I'm simply stating my belief. Matt doesn't know what he needs. I don't know what he needs. I have known him for 20 years, so I know what I believe about his personality and how he processes things. I certainly did not mean to come across as a know it all or that "I" am the only thing that can make him happy. I'm sorry if it reads that way. I believe he has a better chance of healing more completely if I am there to do the work necessary. That is my gut instinct as well as the advice of our counselor. I can't make Matt happy. No one can make anyone else happy. 

I simply believe (not know) from my past experience with him and from our interactions post affair that my remorse and actions seem to help. I believe that him attempting to heal on his own would be less effective in the long run. My beliefs, nothing more..

I also see progress. I think it is a bold statement for you to assume that there is no healing taking place. We know that dealing with infidelity is a cycle. I know that our cycles are slowing down - low points are fewer and farther between. So there is positive progress. But when a low point returns, it is hard and perhaps magnified because things were steadier for a while. I was simply seeking some input here from people who have walked in his shoes. I want to understand as truly as possible. I am sorry if I offended you and poorly stated my thoughts. I do not mean to cause additional pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Thank you all for the thoughts and prayers. I really appreciate the time you took to share your ideas. Matt has said he doesn't think there is anything else I can be doing. But I'm always hunting for something - that right word, gesture, moment that lets him feel how much I care, how truly I love him, how invested I am in seeing him heal. I will accept a seperation gracefully if that is what he truly needs. I am more than aware that seperation and divorce will always be his right and justly deserved by me after what I've done to him. But that does not change my opinion that it will not give him what he seeks.
> 
> The job situation is tough. I have a standing offer for a job in another city. I have searched and interviewed for jobs in other cities than that. Matt has not. I have sent him openings in his current field, I have researched accelerated programs for him to go back to college and change fields, I have talked with him about finding a way financially for him to pursue his freelance work full-time. At the core of things, Matt struggles with change. So I wait for him to be ready. I will go anywhere, do anything to attempt to create a happy future for Matt and my boys. But I can't push him.
> 
> I hope this is just another low in the cycle. I pray we can ride it out and reach the rebound. I am trying to help carry the weight with him. As always, I am truly sorry for the pain that has brought you all to this point, but am very grateful that you are willing to share your struggles and hard gained wisdom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You will make it. Sell a future together as a family.

He has to help himself. A separation will not help him.

In the end he will not find someone who loves him more.


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## clipclop2

If you don't know what he needs them stop telling him what he doesn't need.

I have no doubt that you know him well. But I believe that what you are saying robs him just as much as your cheating did.

Back off.

This is his problem to solve.

Allow him that.


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## nuclearnightmare

clipclop2 said:


> If you don't know what he needs them stop telling him what he doesn't need.
> 
> I have no doubt that you know him well. But I believe that what you are saying robs him just as much as your cheating did.
> 
> Back off.
> 
> This is his problem to solve.
> 
> Allow him that.


:iagree:

Maybe if you guys separated, and he was free to see other women, he would find someone better suited to help him heal. Someone who has never betrayed him, of course. Or his experience in separation might make have him conclude that he still loves you and wants to return to you. Maybe you encouraging him to take that journey would be the most unselfish thing you could do for him.


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## clipclop2

Mrs M, you didn't offend me the way you think you did.

Love, there are just some times when we can't have what we want to have. Progress is great but when pain is ever present sometimes the loving thing is to let go.

He may come back to you. He might not. If he doesn't you are both released.

Your judgment about progress is about control. If he leaves it is about your failure. At least in your mind. But not so. You tried to make amends. You did what you could to recover. And that is all you can do.

But this isn't all about you. 

If he is truly unhappy after all you have done then let him go. You can tell him you would love for him to find that he misses you and wants to come back but you can no longer hold him out of guilt or obligation if he is so unhappy.

At some point he has to make up his own mind.

In fact you have a benefit in my saying this.

If you didn't have any support for this idea he could claim you were giving up and in addition to the cheating, you chose to end it.

Nope.

He can't hide from the fact that he has to decide his future by either getting back into the marriage or punishing both of you forever.

And that's another thing.

While I'm irritated that you think you know what is best for him, how long is our OK for him to be on the fence? If you are actually sincere at what point do you become a whipping post?

So let him go. He needs to make up his mind. His mind. His problem. 

All of us have to do that. 

What do we want? What will we put up with?

Time for Matt to fly.


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## manticore

Hi Mrs Mathias

I really don't think that there is something you can do to help him heal more than what you are already doing.

Mr Mathias has been a Tammer for sometime now, he have read alot and learn alot about other cases, he knows that there are two paths he can follow:

1.- divorce and begin and try to heal by himself and find someone new in his life and build a new relationship.

2.- renconcile and heal with your help and make a stronger and more fullfiling marriage.

He knows that if he go for divorce you will not make things difficult for him, he knows you will share custody and make things easy for him to have an amicable coparenting relationship with him, so if he is with you right now is because he still believes that the second path is the one that suits him better and he thinks that is the more fullfiling path for him, the one that will bring him more hapiness in the end.

That said, you have to understand that he is battling some really strong demons in his end, unlike many BS his OM got totally scot-free of consequences, also this is the second time this happens to him (the second time he is betrayed in a marriage) he is a man of strong morals and convictions that for almost 40 years have conducted his life as a respectable man, so he is probably tormented by thoughts like "why always me" "what did I do wrong to deserve this again?".

when you commented about him engaging a sort of EA it was not a surprise to me, many BS with with strong sense of loyalty have done it in their darkest moments (mattmatt, joe kid, Mr john adams).

I have read his post many times, he is not the kind if guy that will stay miserable in a marriage for fear to change, if he is with you is because he still believes and have faith that that decission will bring him the more fullfiling outcome, prove him right and keep supporting him like you have been doing until now.

if in the end R fails at least the both of you will know that you did your best to make it work to leave without regrets (but I really hope that R would be succesfull in your case, hang in there until the downswing pass).

good luck


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## Forever Grateful

I'm sorry you are going through this rough time Mrs M and it is unfortunate that Mr M is considering separation. We've recently got out of a rough patch where RTBP was strongly considering separation at one point and luckily we made it through it together. I'll be praying for the same for you two. I also understand your fear of separation and I don't believe it comes from any sense of wanting control or selfishness in believing that you can help him heal without leaving. RTBP went trough a funk where he was feeling pretty apathetic about life and just felt tired overall. Is there anything that can shake him out of his funk? How often do you two get out of the house without the kids? Would a brief change of scenery help? I hope this storm passes and that you, your husband, and your boys all find happiness together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm simply stating my belief. Matt doesn't know what he needs. I don't know what he needs. I have known him for 20 years, so I know what I believe about his personality and how he processes things. I certainly did not mean to come across as a know it all or that "I" am the only thing that can make him happy. I'm sorry if it reads that way. I believe he has a better chance of healing more completely if I am there to do the work necessary. That is my gut instinct as well as the advice of our counselor. I can't make Matt happy. No one can make anyone else happy.
> 
> I simply believe (not know) from my past experience with him and from our interactions post affair that my remorse and actions seem to help. I believe that him attempting to heal on his own would be less effective in the long run. My beliefs, nothing more..
> 
> I also see progress. I think it is a bold statement for you to assume that there is no healing taking place. We know that dealing with infidelity is a cycle. I know that our cycles are slowing down - low points are fewer and farther between. So there is positive progress. But when a low point returns, it is hard and perhaps magnified because things were steadier for a while. I was simply seeking some input here from people who have walked in his shoes. I want to understand as truly as possible. I am sorry if I offended you and poorly stated my thoughts. I do not mean to cause additional pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 REO Speedwagon - Time for Me to Fly (with video lyrics).wmv - YouTube You and I have talked about this before. I think that you truly believe you know what is best, but it never is, because he isn't you. If he wants to go, let him go. You trying to keep him only adds to the resentment and sense of entrapment. Tell him that you want his happiness regardless.....and let him fly.


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## jim123

Mrs M,

Do not give up. You will make it. Matt does love you. That was very clear. Keep giving him hope. Use memories of the past and dreams of the future.


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## LongWalk

Mrs Mathias,

Your name came up in another thread (No sex after her affair) when a poster compared you and your husband to RoadScholar and his WW. It might be interesting to get your reaction.

It would take some time to read the thread but quite a bit is summarized on the last page, which is also where you are mentioned.

One of the similarities between your marriages might be that your husbands are morally upright people. Losing your husband would be a loss for you and likewise for RS's WW. As reconciliation goes forward your husband or RS may accept that you have recovered your moral character. To accomplish this, however, took an enormous amount of spiritual energy.

It may be that although they acknowledge that you have become better people, it came at their expense and the fatigue they feel is overwhelming.

Also, I wonder if having the baby makes the R attempt a success even if you divorce?

Even in the deepest fog of your affair, when you were infatuated with the OM, your rational being told you that your disparate ages and state in life made any future impossible. How did it feel to hear that weak voice of reason that could not stop you?

Is the voice inside of your husband to fight on with R similar?

If you do take the time to visit RS's thread, it would be interesting to get your opinion on separation.

I admire your perseverance. Best wishes to Mr Mathias.

LW


----------



## larry.gray

owl6118 said:


> You didn't ask what you could do, but it seems maybe there is something in the Adams' story that suggests something you might do.
> 
> I am sorry to be so blunt, but here goes: as I recall all your husband wrote, it was always very clear that one point caused him particular pain--the emasculation he felt due to the fact that you put him into the same space as your OM, sometimes under his own roof, and the OM was able repeatedly to "laugh" at him to his face.
> 
> Have you ever discussed this specific point with Matt? Is there something you could do to let him know that you empathize with this very specific humiliation and emasculation, that you understand you inflicted it, and that you have deep remorse? Not just in general, but for having done that very specific and very personal and deep injury?


Mrs M - you didn't reply to this specific point, and I think owl is onto something here. Did you catch this one in reading all of the replies?


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## calvin

Happy Fathers Day B1 and to all you other gentlemen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1

calvin said:


> Happy Fathers Day B1 and to all you other gentlemen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Calvin, and Happy fathers day to you too!!

And 

Happy fathers day to all the dads out there.


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## calvin

B1 said:


> Thank you Calvin, and Happy fathers day to you too!!
> 
> And
> 
> Happy fathers day to all the dads out there.


:-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hello all and Happy Father's Day to the dads here. Things here swung back to the positive end of the pendulum in 24 hours. It's pretty much exactly like the "experts" say, the episodes get farther apart and shorter in duration before they lose intensity. I really need to work on better managing my emotional upheaval with them. The sky is not falling. Even at his worst he has not packed a bag to leave. He allows me near him, and we are able to come back to each other. I am incredibly fortunate in all those things.

Larry, with regard to owl's comment, yes , I believe I have specifically shown my remorse and apologized to Matt for putting him in that place. However, you are right that things similar to that are a challenge to us, so I continue to work on ways to express and demonstrate my awareness of those specific hurts. It's hard at this point because listing things is a bit like picking the scab, 18 months out. But sometimes it helps too. Balance is always the key.

We were in a very different place pre-A than B1 and EI. But I feel we are doing as well as possible, given the magnitude of the betrayal, and the circumstances we still face. Today, I was able to hold my husband in my arms as we woke, watch him play with our oldest son, and hold the youngest. I am completely undeserving, but exponentially more grateful each day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

You have a good man Mrs.M.
Be patient and be there for him.
It takes a long time for us to get over this but I'm sure you both will be alright.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

Mrs M: My view is that a BS cannot heal him/herself in the context of reconciliation--the WS has to help by doing the things that you have done as a remorseful fWW.

The problem is that you cannot undo the bad stuff. It sounds like Matt wants things to be the way they were before the A, and they never will be. So he's stuck. I posted elsewhere that the way I got past this was by simply acknowledging to myself that things in fact will never be the same, that my W simply cannot repay the hurt and damage she caused, and that I was not going to spend anymore emotional energy looking for recompense for a debt that cannot be repaid. I'd call this "practical forgiveness."


----------



## thatbpguy

I have to say I have read a LOT of betrayal stories and those of R and attempted R and I am envious of those who can forgive to the point of rebuilding their lives together.


----------



## jim123

Best wishes to B1 and EI this weekend,


----------



## B1

Thank you Jim123, we are excited about tomorrow. EI is as nervous as she was the day we married. She's adorable and working hard to make everything perfect. We both worked very hard to get to where we are today. I cannot wait to marry this beautiful woman all over again.


----------



## owl6118

B1 said:


> Thank you Jim123, we are excited about tomorrow.


I will have a smile on my face all day tomorrow thinking of you. Blessings upon your union tomorrow and forevermore.


----------



## margrace

dearest EI and B1:

i put tomorrow's date in my calendar when you first announced it, and i have watched it approach every day since. i have thought again and again of what you've meant to me, and of you and your beautiful family getting ready for this wonderful weekend.

i know that i will be just one of many people who are strongly and lovingly with you in spirit tomorrow. i know that you will feel all of us embracing you from across the miles.

raising my glass to you, sweethearts! xoxo mg


----------



## EI

Thank you all so very much. There are so many of you without whom I don't believe this day would even be possible. We truly love you all.

Tomorrow I will (re)marry the love of my life. 

Tonight, I must sleep. 

Take Care,
~EI


----------



## calvin

Excellent you two!!
You both are an inspiration and you guys show many of us that anything is possible
with love,devotion,forgiveness,understanding and a look forward to a bright future.
Congrates Mr. and Mrs. B1!
Quite a success story we have here.
Good stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan

Congratulations EI and B1, keep moving, I'm happy for you. Enjoy your day


----------



## Rookie4

Have fun, you two!!!Righteous Brothers - Unchained Melody (High Quality) - YouTube


----------



## Rookie4

Wash each other in the clean water of love. Feed each other with the food of the Gods.Maybe I'm Amazed - Paul McCartney (With Lyrics) - YouTube


----------



## Rookie4

But.......Always remember to do the dirty, whenever and wherever you can. Love you Guys, Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The Full Monty (Tom Jones) - You Can Leave Your Hat On - YouTube


----------



## Pamvhv

Congrats!


----------



## thatbpguy

Just, WOW!


----------



## EI

thatbpguy said:


> Just, WOW!


Thank you. It was a very happy day for our family.


----------



## thatbpguy

EI said:


> Thank you. It was a very happy day for our family.


That is also a nice family photo.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Just look at all those little B1s and EIs (9 of them) God has blessed them with!!!
All of them are so very good looking to boot!


EI you look so happy in your wedding picture and you have the prettiest teeth in the South!

I know that several of us TAMers celebrated today. Mr. and Mrs. John Adams celebrated Mrs. Adams parents 60th anniversary, I celebrated my parent’s 68th anniversary and your great wedding that showed so much hope and is so inspirational to us all!


Thank you B1 and EI for sharing with us such dramatic victories!!!

EI you are not only a living sacrifice but you are a living blessing to your family, your friends, your husband and yourself! In addition you are a real Rockyita! You got up off the floor after being knocked down many times and now you are a champion! 

B1 you are a man that has suffered for your wife because you knew she was worth it, you have fought off the negatives and done what had to be done to preserve you and EI and your whole family. What you and EI have done is OUTSTANDING!!!!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



EI said:


> Thank you. It was a very happy day for our family.


B1 will immediately understand this. You can always "see" joy and positive energy in a photo. You and B1 just radiate love. And what an absolutely beautiful family. God has truly blessed you both. Congratulations. You both are a dream come true for each other and everyone you touch on life's journey.


----------



## manticore

congrats, is a really beautiful family.


----------



## Philat

Mr Blunt said:


> I celebrated my parent’s 68th anniversary and your great wedding that showed so much hope and is so inspirational to us all!




68 years! I hope they are well and moving toward 70!


----------



## MattMatt

EI said:


>


That's wonderful!:smthumbup:


----------



## B1

Thank you everyone, it was a wonderful and perfect day yesterday. We were excited, the kids were excited, and it just turned out beautiful.


----------



## jim123

B1 said:


> Thank you everyone, it was a wonderful and perfect day yesterday. We were excited, the kids were excited, and it just turned out beautiful.


I can see why you fought to keep them,


----------



## thatbpguy

jim123 said:


> I can see why you fought to keep them,


For sure. Beautiful wife, lovely kids...


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


>


Great looking crew!!!


----------



## B1

Thanks Rookie, I think so too. That was a monumental day for us. We have both worked so hard, fought so hard, and really truly worked on ourselves and our marriage. The picture of all of us speaks volumes to show where we are today. That's our family, my wife and kids who I love dearly. I would certainly give my life for anyone one of them and I know EI would too.


----------



## thatbpguy

Ya know, it'd be fitting to end this long thread with a happy ending such as this.


----------



## EI

jim123 said:


> I can see why you fought to keep them,


We both did! We fought for ourselves, we fought for one another, we fought for our family, and finally, we fought for us! 

I can't say that it has been easy, but I can say that it has been worth it!

*Happy 30th Wedding Anniversary, B1!*​


----------



## bandit.45

Good job guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bandit.45 said:


> Good job guys.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Very good job indeed.
You said you wanted to spoon,come camping with me bonehead,its beautiful
out here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## B1

thatbpguy said:


> Ya know, it'd be fitting to end this long thread with a happy ending such as this.


You know, that's not a bad idea, but It still plays a vital role for some. It's not as active, but it's still a safe place for many to come to and vent, ask for help, and to just post and feel safe to do so. Like Mrs. M recently, she could ask for help here without being called filthy names. She could actually get help and feedback. This thread is home to many, it's their safe place.

I do appreciate the thought though.


----------



## B1

Happy 30th Wedding Anniversary, EI!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



B1 said:


> You know, that's not a bad idea, but It still plays a vital role for some. It's not as active, but it's still a safe place for many to come to and vent, ask for help, and to just post and feel safe to do so. Like Mrs. M recently, she could ask for help here without being called filthy names. She could actually get help and feedback. This thread is home to many, it's their safe place.
> 
> I do appreciate the thought though.


I agree. I don't come to TAM very often anymore but if the Reconciliation thread wasn't here I would feel lost. CWI is a necessary but dark section of this site. This thread is like a soft warm light guiding folks home to a safe haven. Sometimes I just like to re-read some of the more poignant posts and caring exchanges that have taken place. It restores my hope.


----------



## Decorum

EI said:


> Thank you all so very much. There are so many of you without whom I don't believe this day would even be possible. We truly love you all.
> 
> Tomorrow I will (re)marry the love of my life.
> 
> Tonight, I must sleep.
> 
> Take Care,
> ~EI


Marvelous, congratulation to you both. I am so happy for you.

May I offer a word of encouragement?

I just returned from the funeral of my BIL (Sisters husband).
It was out of state.

Her husband was not a man of many words, but in everything he did his faith and love were present. 

People came from so many different parts of his life to tell their story.

He showed love not just in word or tongue but deed and truth.

I am sure that the impact of his deeds will continue even after he is gone and will follow after him.

That is enough to make my point, EI and B1 the positive impact you have had on TAM is I am sure just a fraction of the influence your lives are having in this world.

It really counts for something in time and eternity.

God bless you both, I am so encouraged by your lives.

Take care!


----------



## Rookie4

B1 said:


> Thanks Rookie, I think so too. That was a monumental day for us. We have both worked so hard, fought so hard, and really truly worked on ourselves and our marriage. The picture of all of us speaks volumes to show where we are today. That's our family, my wife and kids who I love dearly. I would certainly give my life for anyone one of them and I know EI would too.


Saying that you would die for them is all very dramatic, but it is much more important that both of you LIVE for them, and for each other. Just sayin.


----------



## Rookie4

BTW, if you are going to grill out during your honeymoon, be sure to get some "brat burgers", I just tried them a week ago and with spicy mustard, onions and pepperjack cheese, they are killer.


----------



## joe kidd

Congrats you guys. 
Things are better between Pidge and I. 
Dark time at the beginning of the year and I really thought that splitting was inevitable .


----------



## Philat

joe kidd said:


> Congrats you guys.
> Things are better between Pidge and I.
> Dark time at the beginning of the year and I really thought that splitting was inevitable .


More good news! Let's keep it going!


----------



## daisygirl 41

Many congratulations to you both.
So happy for you.
Xxx


----------



## calvin

B1 and EI are a true inspriation for me.
It shows love does indeed rule at the end of the day.
Good stuff...great stuff.
Very happy for you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Congratulations EI and B1! Your family is beautiful! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike11

Congrats EI and B1


----------



## TBT

Belated on my part,but no less sincere...congrats EI and B1. You both dug deep and put it all on the line for all you truly hold near and dear. Couldn't be happier for both of you and your beautiful family!


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Mr Blunt said:


> Just look at all those little B1s and EIs (9 of them) God has blessed them with!!!
> All of them are so very good looking to boot!
> 
> 
> EI you look so happy in your wedding picture and you have the prettiest teeth in the South!
> 
> I know that several of us TAMers celebrated today. Mr. and Mrs. John Adams celebrated Mrs. Adams parents 60th anniversary, I celebrated my parent’s 68th anniversary and your great wedding that showed so much hope and is so inspirational to us all!
> 
> 
> Thank you B1 and EI for sharing with us such dramatic victories!!!
> 
> EI you are not only a living sacrifice but you are a living blessing to your family, your friends, your husband and yourself! In addition you are a real Rockyita! You got up off the floor after being knocked down many times and now you are a champion!
> 
> B1 you are a man that has suffered for your wife because you knew she was worth it, you have fought off the negatives and done what had to be done to preserve you and EI and your whole family. What you and EI have done is OUTSTANDING!!!!


Mr Blunt:

I don't always agree with your assessments regarding infidelity, but I have to say I sincerely admire your positive sprirituality and attitude toward life!


----------



## nuclearnightmare

EI said:


>



(even) I (have to) admit this is very nice/uplifting.


----------



## Forever Grateful

Hope everyone had a great 4th! My parents have my sister's kids for the summer and they came to visit in the RV. We all went to Six Flags for the 4th. Then yesterday we went to Field Museum and Aquarium. Family had a great weekend so today we're just kind of recuperating. 

RTBP had a great time as well although he is a little annoyed at times with us having a full house. His last week of classes is this week so he's looking forward to starting our summer. As far as R, things have been pretty good. He still has his moments but overall he's been cheerier, more affectionate, and loving. We still have a long way to go but I'm really happy with how far we've come and VERY appreciative of the effort he has put in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Forever Grateful said:


> Hope everyone had a great 4th! My parents have my sister's kids for the summer and they came to visit in the RV. We all went to Six Flags for the 4th. Then yesterday we went to Field Museum and Aquarium. Family had a great weekend so today we're just kind of recuperating.
> 
> RTBP had a great time as well although he is a little annoyed at times with us having a full house. His last week of classes is this week so he's looking forward to starting our summer. As far as R, things have been pretty good. He still has his moments but overall he's been cheerier, more affectionate, and loving. We still have a long way to go but I'm really happy with how far we've come and VERY appreciative of the effort he has put in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Always hoping for RTBP.


----------



## Forever Grateful

weightlifter said:


> Always hoping for RTBP.


Thank you. He says hi to everyone and that he hopes all is well. Also that he might comeback on at some point but he doesn't plan on doing it anytime soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> Thank you. He says hi to everyone and that he hopes all is well. Also that he might comeback on at some point but he doesn't plan on doing it anytime soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He and you are far more important than we are. This is a time for the two of you to be collectively selfish. We'd expect and demand nothing less because we care about you.


----------



## daisygirl 41

Why has Mrs Adams been banned???


----------



## Forever Grateful

daisygirl 41 said:


> Why has Mrs Adams been banned???


That's what I'd like to know. She was always respectful in her post. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forever Grateful said:


> That's what I'd like to know. She was always respectful in her post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 That's nuts,she's a sweetheart and her insight is extremely valuable.
I never saw her get out of line,hpe she's backs soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

Banned banned or temporarily?


----------



## manticore

I am wondering the same, she really is not confrontational, I can't imagine what happened the get her banned


----------



## clipclop2

This place is crap sometimes...


----------



## happyman64

Wow. People are getting a little sensitive out in the Matrix.

Where is Neo when you need him?


----------



## Acoa

There is no spoon


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Acoa said:


> There is no spoon


Damn, how do I eat my ice cream?


----------



## daisygirl 41

Don't mention the war!


----------



## owl6118

daisygirl 41 said:


> Don't mention the war!


You most certainly did start it--you invaded Poland!


----------



## Rookie4

I think that if the moderators would announce the reason a person has gotten banned, then most of the speculation and drama would be removed from it. I guess I will take the chance of being banned for a week or so, because I am a believer in free speech and have always thought that TAM moderators felt the same. I would like to know why Mrs. A was banned, also. Who knows, someday I might say something similar and it would be nice to get a heads up.


----------



## Deejo

happyman64 said:


> Wow. People are getting a little sensitive out in the Matrix.
> 
> Where is Neo when you need him?


Banned.


----------



## Deejo

Not going to comment on any subsequent responses to this note, so ... I hope you find it sufficient.

We are never, ever, going to post the reasons why someone was banned. 

We don't do it for the nameless, unknown spammer, we aren't going to do it for the poster that is prolific and well known.

And there is something that I encourage you, and anyone else to be aware of regarding the operation of an online forum. It isn't about free speech. You don't get to say whatever you want. You get to say whatever you want within the guidelines of the forum and within the context of the forum rules. And ... even with that, the owners or administrators of that forum can take down your posts or ban you whenever they choose, without providing any context whatsoever to you.

If a poster is banned, we provide the reason why to that individual. And you may find this difficult to believe ... but often they don't agree with the reason why.

I have said it before and I do mean it, I'm not trying to be facetious. You should consider participation here more along the lines of being part of a benevolent dictatorship, rather than a democracy. 



Rookie4 said:


> I think that if the moderators would announce the reason a person has gotten banned, then most of the speculation and drama would be removed from it. I guess I will take the chance of being banned for a week or so, because I am a believer in free speech and have always thought that TAM moderators felt the same. I would like to know why Mrs. A was banned, also. Who knows, someday I might say something similar and it would be nice to get a heads up.


----------



## clipclop2

the concept of free speech only applies when you are talking about the government. It doesn't exist in the private world.

that said I do find it very very weird to be told that we are not to discuss someone's banning.

I meant I just find it really distasteful. 

it makes me consider leaving this forum. 

if it weren't for sporks and be gone tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

clipclop2 said:


> the concept of free speech only applies when you are talking about the government. It doesn't exist in the private world.
> 
> * that said I do find it very very weird to be told that we are not to discuss someone's banning.
> *
> I meant I just find it really distasteful.
> 
> it makes me consider leaving this forum.
> 
> if it weren't for sporks and be gone tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, as a general proposition and not in reference to any specific incident, such discussion would in many cases amount to no more than rumormongering about a person who is unable to present his/her side of the story.


----------



## Headspin

Deejo said:


> Not going to comment on any subsequent responses to this note, so ... I hope you find it sufficient.
> 
> We are never, ever, going to post the reasons why someone was banned.
> 
> We don't do it for the nameless, unknown spammer, we aren't going to do it for the poster that is prolific and well known.
> 
> And there is something that I encourage you, and anyone else to be aware of regarding the operation of an online forum. It isn't about free speech. You don't get to say whatever you want. You get to say whatever you want within the guidelines of the forum and within the context of the forum rules. And ... even with that, the owners or administrators of that forum can take down your posts or ban you whenever they choose, without providing any context whatsoever to you.
> 
> If a poster is banned, we provide the reason why to that individual. And you may find this difficult to believe ... but often they don't agree with the reason why.
> 
> I have said it before and I do mean it, I'm not trying to be facetious. You should consider participation here more along the lines of being part of a benevolent dictatorship, rather than a democracy.


So why is that then? I don't get this. 

Why not say put up some stickies or info with specific examples by posters that say got them banned and we would know that is not allowable this is and that ain't etc etc. I often see something that is bannable but doesn't get banned, suddenly another poster you'd never imagine banned is and no one seems to know why and then on comes an admin or mod like yourself and waves a big stick saying if 'you don't like it f off' 

It does come across as ridiculously heavy handed and as you yourself point out dictatorial ...why?

Strikes me that as admin mods are always going on about "decorum this and decorum that" but on this matter there's little of it 

Obviously you said you wont respond to this but even that is a bit weird imo ...still just an observation probably shared by many ...


----------



## ScarletBegonias

"Please refrain from discussing bannings"= Stop freaking talk about it and get back to giving and getting advice about marital issues.


----------



## Rookie4

Deejo said:


> Not going to comment on any subsequent responses to this note, so ... I hope you find it sufficient.
> 
> We are never, ever, going to post the reasons why someone was banned.
> 
> We don't do it for the nameless, unknown spammer, we aren't going to do it for the poster that is prolific and well known.
> 
> And there is something that I encourage you, and anyone else to be aware of regarding the operation of an online forum. It isn't about free speech. You don't get to say whatever you want. You get to say whatever you want within the guidelines of the forum and within the context of the forum rules. And ... even with that, the owners or administrators of that forum can take down your posts or ban you whenever they choose, without providing any context whatsoever to you.
> 
> If a poster is banned, we provide the reason why to that individual. And you may find this difficult to believe ... but often they don't agree with the reason why.
> 
> I have said it before and I do mean it, I'm not trying to be facetious. You should consider participation here more along the lines of being part of a benevolent dictatorship, rather than a democracy.


I actually agree with SOME of this. (Not the benevolent dictatorship part, of course), which , as a Patriotic American I find...unusual. I do agree, however , that specific details of a banning are unnecessary and salacious. What I am refering to, is possibly for the moderators to give the rule which the banned party violated. An example would be that Joe So and So violated rule number 12 and was banned accordingly. This would help eliminate speculation and keep threads on track. By saying nothing, speculation is increased and threads are derailed like this one. This is just my opinion.


----------



## clipclop2

Next time I am banned... Clock ticking... Feel free to tell everyone why mods. You will get more kudos than jeers.

Reconciliation. Banning.

I think they are related topics, really.

So, how are things JK?


----------



## soulpotato

Hey, guys. I know I've been gone a while. May continue being gone, I don't know, it doesn't matter.

Things have not been good with GF. We have been going to regular joint therapy, working on issues, etc, but...she still can't bring herself to meet my needs. We haven't had sex for over four months. I have told her multiple times that I don't feel attractive to her or wanted by her, but I get no real response. I asked her if she was in love with me at least 3-4 times in the last few weeks, and she side-stepped the first several times, then got angry the last time and was like, "What's the difference between love/in-love!!" She still wouldn't tell me. She's not very affectionate in general either, plus the regular mood issues. So it's just...really hard.

Our therapist says GF may be on the verge of some "change", whatever that means, but I am tapped out. I can't wait any more years for her to show me she loves me and wants me. I just cry when I think about our relationship, even though I love her so much.

The night after the last in-love argument, I looked at her and said, "Why am I fighting this if you're not in love with me?" I had been telling her the last few months that thoughts/feelings towards my ex were resurfacing. She said, "I have feelings about this, but I don't want to discuss it." That was basically what she said the last several times when (important) conversations should have taken place.

That Monday, I broke NC. (I know, I am the anti-christ. Trust me, I don't need anyone else kicking me, I've already done it constantly myself. There were many times I was on the verge of cutting myself just to stop the noise.) I told GF right away. We've since seen the therapist and have talked about it with each other multiple times. Not sure what's going to happen, but I know I can't go on like this anymore.

I really didn't think I'd be here, in this situation. But I know I've done my best and that I can't go any further like this. 

I hate myself even more now.


----------



## Philat

Sorry to hear this, SP. I haven't commented on your posts many times but have been following your story.

How did GF react to the news about breaking NC? Did she care? Sounds like she's been treating you with indifference.


----------



## soulpotato

Philat said:


> Sorry to hear this, SP. I haven't commented on your posts many times but have been following your story.
> 
> How did GF react to the news about breaking NC? Did she care? Sounds like she's been treating you with indifference.


Thank you.  

She was sad. I know she feels caring, she just doesn't show it in a lot of ways. And for me, just caring isn't enough. I need more. We were both crying on the phone last night. I told her I saw my future with her but that I can't survive like this anymore. 

I also told her that I don't deserve her caring or kindness, and that I am terrible. She's worried.


----------



## soulpotato

I told her I'd continue to go without forever if I could, just to stay with her, but I'm at my breaking point. I can't seem to feel where that is for me, can't seem to feel myself. I always doubt if my distress is pertinent or even real, so I mention it, and then I box it up.

I feel so terrible for her, that she cared about someone like me.  It's such a shame. I wish she could've met someone better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

soulpotato said:


> I also told her that I don't deserve her caring or kindness, and that I am terrible. She's worried.


First thing is to cut out this self-deprecating stuff. The more positive you are about yourself the more people react positively to you.


----------



## soulpotato

Philat, the other thing GF said (one of the first things she said) is, "You need to repair/work on your core wounds."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Philat said:


> First thing is to cut out this self-deprecating stuff. The more positive you are about yourself the more people react positively to you.


I'm trying, but when I fail or do something wrong, especially where it concerns her, that's overwhelmingly how I feel about myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

Hi SP.

here's my take. 

you were in a sense set up to fail. your girlfriend knows that you are weak and that you would attempt to step out. And you walked right into it. However, she did nothing to help you rebuild the relationship and be strong.

and I think that was a positive way of wanting the relationship to be over but not being strong enough to say that it was all over and to walk away.

But I like to suggest that you should walk away and that you should be the 1 to walk away. damages. Cannot be undone.

But more than that this is an opportunity for you to look inside of you and figure out what you want. it is imperative that you would dress whatever issue let you contact your ex again. because nobody is going to put up with that in the future. Soon to be ex girlfriend and not the future girlfriend.

integrity.

study that word. 

within that word you will find your answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Headspin

soulpotato said:


> Thank you.
> 
> She was sad. I know she feels caring, she just doesn't show it in a lot of ways. And for me, just caring isn't enough. I need more. We were both crying on the phone last night. I told her I saw my future with her but that I can't survive like this anymore.
> 
> I also told her that I don't deserve her caring or kindness, and that I am terrible. She's worried.


But the logicality here defeats me Spot - you break NC and find your Gf isn't "caring enough" - you need more than that. 
What is the "more" given those circumstances you are hoping for from her?

Just trying to ascertain your logic here as breaking NC will surely have a detrimental effect on your relationship. 

Do you see that ?


----------



## soulpotato

Headspin, the relationship problems and unmet needs certainly didn't help, but the real problem is that I was too weak to maintain in a bad situation, and too blind/weak to walk away from GF before I snapped, and that's my fault. I know that, and GF knows that. It's not her fault I broke NC. I'm seeing a lot of things right now.

And yes, it's a fact that I had very reasonable needs that weren't being met (I'm talking about intimacy, affection, communication, and others - it doesn't feel like she considers me her romantic partner). I thought we could get there if I did things properly this time and really cleaned up my side of the street and worked hard to meet her needs. But it changed absolutely nothing. Wishful thinking on my part, I guess, that it could work out between us.

Breaking NC had zero to do with logic. It was pure impulse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Clipclop, you make some good points. 

I just want to say...I do have integrity.

I know at this point that I'll have to walk away. I don't see any other way for this to work out anymore. Even if I hadn't broken NC. But I did that wrong, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

soulpotato said:


> Clipclop, you make some good points.
> 
> *I just want to say...I do have integrity.
> 
> I know at this point that I'll have to walk away. I don't see any other way for this to work out anymore.* Even if I hadn't broken NC. But I did that wrong, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am glad to see the bolded. You have a seed of self-love inside you, soul. Nurture it.

Your partner cannot help you. You need support. She is not able to give it. I think separating is a win/win.

So happy to see you at this point, soul. I think being able to walk away could be the start of a much healthier soulpotato.


----------



## bfree

SP, you are a good person. Even good people stumble. You need to find good in yourself. Other people see it. But when you continue to run yourself down people start to question whether the good they see is just their imagination. You can only truly be loved when you feel you should be loved.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

SP, I'm so sorry for you and GF. But it's clear that despite all your efforts with counseling, etc., you cannot maintain a relationship that is mutually satisfying. You have come so far in understand yourself, improving your weaknesses, and attempting to become a better partner. Don't lose sight of that, despite breaking NC. You can get back on track, and leaving this relationship is necessary. You need a environment where your partner understands and helps protect your weaknesses, instead of continually leaving you to struggle with them alone.

Please, continue to take care of yourself, know that you are a valuable person, and that a fulfilling relationship is possible, just not with this partner. Better days are ahead.


----------



## Forever Grateful

First of all, despite the circumstances it is good to hear from you SP.

Second, I'm sorry your relationship with GF/DS has taken this turn. I didn't want to say this on your last thread but I agree with some others that maybe it is time to walk away from this relationship for your own good.

And please stop bad mouthing yourself. Anyone who has read your post would know that you've been working your a-- off on self improvement.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Mrs_Mathias said:


> SP, I'm so sorry for you and GF. But it's clear that despite all your efforts with counseling, etc., you cannot maintain a relationship that is mutually satisfying. You have come so far in understand yourself, improving your weaknesses, and attempting to become a better partner. Don't lose sight of that, despite breaking NC. You can get back on track, and leaving this relationship is necessary. You need a environment where your partner understands and helps protect your weaknesses, instead of continually leaving you to struggle with them alone.
> 
> Please, continue to take care of yourself, know that you are a valuable person, and that a fulfilling relationship is possible, just not with this partner. Better days are ahead.


Mrs Mathias

I'd like to turn the discussion to you. I'm rarely a sympathizer with wayward spouses and I havent been with you. I know your story vaguely. 

I sense a distinct sadness in your posts of the last several weeks. This to the extent that I'm now willing to consider that you might not be using TAM as a tool of manipulation, at least that you no longer are. If I may I ask - how is your IC going? What kind of therapy, anything in particular?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

NN, I guess it's just the "affair season blues". Two years ago I had just put Matt through DDay1, and it's haunting to look back at. I have targeted counseling with Steve Harley periodically, and I try to focus each day on making the most of it, trying to move past my past. But it's difficult. I'm here more often than is good for me, I know. And I don't really know what compelled me to post after all this time except that it is so discouraging to read all the absolutes spouted here... Once a cheater, always a cheater - cheaters never change - reconciliation is just the time between affairs - once you catch them cheating you know who they really are, etc. 

I don't believe my affair reflected who I really am. It showed me my weaknesses, what depths I am capable of, my absolute worst. But I am not my worst any more than I am my best. I want to be someone my sons can be proud of. I want to be more than six months of conscious bad decisions in 38 years of life. Occasionally I get the stupid idea that I could contribute something back here, that I could offer a well-thought viewpoint, or even just a glimpse into the actions and processes of someone making an effort to help mend the astronomical damage she wrought.

Idk what I'm rambling about really. I'm ok. Matt is doing as well as could be expected. We are no longer existing day to day, but I am aware that he could leave at any time, justifiably so. Sometimes I just wonder, in TAM's eyes, how many years do I grovel? Can I ever atone? Is there ever a point where I can show that I was worth staying with? To Matt and the rest of the world? Or will he always be better off if he would have left me?

I know that I am doing everything possible to help Matt. Matt has said it, our counselor has said it. So I guess the answer to those questions doesn't matter to my actions, ultimately. I just don't want Matt to wake up in 30 years and regret each day that he has spent with me. He deserves happiness and peace, in as much as that is possible after how I changed him.

Thank you for asking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MM, (gently) What do _you_ deserve? 

And I don't want to hear anything negative, because that is _not_ what anyone deserves.  Everyone deserves positive things.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

You and your husband are professors? Theater?

What kind of childhood did you have? Ever thought of seeing a psychotherapist? Behavioral therapist? (Is Harley a marriage therapist?) During the 6 months of your affair, were you feeling any unusual emotions? Intense anger, fear? Physically unsettled?


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## nuclearnightmare

I'm logging off for tonight but interested in discussing more Mrs M.


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## Mrs_Mathias

jld said:


> MM, (gently) What do _you_ deserve?
> 
> And I don't want to hear anything negative, because that is _not_ what anyone deserves.  Everyone deserves positive things.


I honestly don't know. I have previously believed that everything must be earned. I haven't earned much at this point in my estimation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Occasionally I get the stupid idea that I could contribute something back here, that I could offer a well-thought viewpoint, or even just a glimpse into the actions and processes of someone making an effort to help mend the astronomical damage she wrought.
> 
> *You have contributed! More than you probably realize. I (a BS) consider your introspective observations to be among the most valuable nuggets available on TAM.*
> 
> Sometimes I just wonder, in TAM's eyes, how many years do I grovel? Can I ever atone? Is there ever a point where I can show that I was worth staying with? To Matt and the rest of the world? Or will he always be better off if he would have left me?
> 
> *TAM's opinion on any of this does not matter. Only Matt's does.*
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I always have and still do wish you and Matt the very best, Mrs. M.


----------



## jld

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I honestly don't know. I have previously believed that everything must be earned. I haven't earned much at this point in my estimation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you had a daughter in your sitch, MM, what would you advise her?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

nuclearnightmare said:


> You and your husband are professors? Theater?
> 
> What kind of childhood did you have? Ever thought of seeing a psychotherapist? Behavioral therapist? (Is Harley a marriage therapist?) During the 6 months of your affair, were you feeling any unusual emotions? Intense anger, fear? Physically unsettled?


I'm a music professor that is active in theater. 

I saw a local counselor regularly for the first year after the affair, until she relocated. Her replacement was not a good fit for me. Harley is a marriage counselor, specifically infidelity oriented, through Marriage Builders. I was all over the map emotionally during my affair. Mostly confusion, guilt, sadness - no real anger or fear. I've come to accept that alot of my behavior fit the cheater script and a lot didn't. I never bad mouthed Matt. I always told AP that I loved Matt. The first time I had sex with AP, I bawled in front of him both before and after about how conflicted I was. Sounds like an exciting time, doesn't it? Isn't that a memory to treasure, as all we Waywards do? Doesn't that sound like the most exhilarating time in my life? Many posters here would have BS's believe that. It's not always true, just like everything else.

I was romantically immature, and not self-aware enough at that point to adequately evaluate my decision making process. You know all those internet quizzes that tell you your D&D alignment? I've always scored chaotic good. I'd been intuitive, instinctive in my interactions with people my whole life and this situation exploited that weakness. I'm better now about doubting everything and looking for real motivations before acting.

Physically, I wasted away from the stress of the affair even before discovery, and of course, even more rapidly so after. I lost 35 pounds over 6 months, which is a lot on someone 5'4" who wasn't much overweight to begin with. I was sleepless and drinking more pre-discovery than I really ever have in my life. Not that that is actually much - I never really drank more than once a month before, but was having some wine or beer 3-4 times per week.

I don't believe I have a personality disorder, or anything psychological like that. I had poor boundaries, a poor understanding of myself, poor discipline, and no knowledge of what an EA was, or that I should be guarding my interactions with other people. My top emotional needs can easily be filled in a non-romantic manner, so without my guard up, it is easy for someone else to start contributing to those and that's what tied me to AP chemically and emotionally before I even was aware of it.

But when he kissed me, I knew it was wrong, and I did it any way. That's the only statement in all of this that matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Turin74

I have no right to judge, Mrs M, but since it is a public forum:

I have a lot of sympathy for your husband (think I'm getting soft  ). Perhaps because what he did is very manly and noble and I myself probably wouldn't have guts to do it.

So I hope he'll be OK and you help him to get there. And frankly the qouted bit below is probably the first one (of a recent, admittedly I didn't read all posts) where the communication seem to match the action.

Now I need to go check myself as I don't know why did I post this...



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I know that I am doing everything possible to help Matt. Matt has said it, our counselor has said it. So I guess the answer to those questions doesn't matter to my actions, ultimately. I just don't want Matt to wake up in 30 years and regret each day that he has spent with me. He deserves happiness and peace, in as much as that is possible after how I changed him.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## clipclop2

It seems to me that you will prove you are worthy when you stop looking for TAM approval because you recognize that in the end if you are truly changed that our opinion is meaningless. The same eventually goes for Matt's opinion. 

If you were confident in your changes I think it would be easier for Matt to believe it.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

clipclop2 said:


> It seems to me that you will prove you are worthy when you stop looking for TAM approval because you recognize that in the end if you are truly changed that our opinion is meaningless. The same eventually goes for Matt's opinion.
> 
> If you were confident in your changes I think it would be easier for Matt to believe it.


I'm not actually looking for TAM approval. The questions I posed are more rhetorical in nature, I guess, more generically wondering what the general population of BS's would want/need from their WS's to feel happy to be in a relationship with them.

I am confident Matt sees the changes I have consistently implemented over the last 18 months. But all the positive change in the world cannot negate the original harm, and ultimately may never be enough. That's just the reality of this situation I created.


----------



## nickgtg

Mrs. Mathias, being a BS, I will say that if even half of the WS's were like you there would be more success stories. Obviously there are those who feel that infidelity is a deal breaker, but there are those of us who would have given our spouses that second chance if they showed true remorse.

I only went through an EA, but it sure felt like more when she thought we should just get on with our lives. Easy decision for me, goodbye.

You only have to do what's best for you and your husband, and I wish you two nothing but the best.


----------



## EI

clipclop2 said:


> It seems to me that you will prove you are worthy when you stop looking for TAM approval because you recognize that in the end if you are truly changed that our opinion is meaningless. The same eventually goes for Matt's opinion.
> 
> If you were confident in your changes I think it would be easier for Matt to believe it.


:iagree:

Such wise words, clipclop2. I have wanted to say them, myself, so many times. Yet, we know, that those words, coming from a former WS; although, no less accurate, would appear only to be self-serving. 

Thank you for articulating something that I realized, myself, just a few short months ago. 

I think Mrs. M. is well on her way!


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## manticore

Mrs_Mathias Is a great contributor in TAM, and even whe she talks about subjects that are not linked to her personal experience have good insight and are well eloborated.

The thing is that there is a good amount of users that have great animosity against her, and consider her and her affair's circumstances one of the worst in TAM history *(which I think this is far, really far for being truth, not even close)*

One user even compared her recently with another wife's user whom in my opinion is in the top 3 of worst betrayals in TAM, saying something like, "if Mrs Mathias is in R why people could not accept x's wife in R".

Mrs Mathias affair objetively speaking have 2 things that are disturbing for BS:

1.- Mr Mathias was previously cheated (if a remember correctly by his first wife) so she knew how much it hurt him.
2.- There was a DD1 where she had a glimpse of what it could happen and she could have stopped it before going all the way.

But that said and objectively speaking about Affairs is not that uncommon for the BS suspect and find evidence of something beginning between WS and AP and unfortunatly but true is also not that uncommon being cheated more than once in your life.

But it also had many of the factors that I consider essential for a good R.

- She never bashed Mr M.
- Mr M was never a Plan B.
- she looked of reason for her bahaviour.
- she did not blame shift.
- she agreed to all R conditions without hasitation.

so why some users hold that animosity after all this time? in my opinion was the fact that she trickled truth TAM, and many users believed her words about she just having one encounter with the OM and how in that moment she realized that the emotional and physical connection could not be with OM as it was with Mr M ( I myself believed it), just to realize the true, is what have biased many users here (to the point that many still strongly believe that she got pregnant of purpose). I personally felt like a fool after all in my advices always say things like: *"never believe that it was just one time" "always remember that WS just confess what has bee proved" "if they have opportunities in the past to be alone you can bet they did it those times" "if he/she was emotionally engaged there is no reason to stop with just one encounter".*.

so falling for such and obvious lie it was an insult to my intelligence and knowladge (and I am sure other users felt also like that), but of course she did nothing different of what WS do, is just that many people felt for it instead of just the BS, so many people probably *(even if is in a subconscious level)* just discard everything she says as untrustworthy, of course there are also those who project and bash any WS.

Bottom line, Mrs Mathias is a valuable poster who has learned for her mistakes and is still actively looking for ways to improve herself and contribute apporting to others but probably the biased perspective will always be there (at least for some users).


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

I need to step away from here. I found myself crying over TAM again today for the first time in a long time. That's no good for who I want to be at home and where my energy needs to go.

I think I understand why I felt like articulating thoughts on unmet needs post-infidelity.

JLD wants to know what I deserve.

What I want is to someday deserve to have someone care for me. To care how I'm feeling, what I think. To look out for me. And I want that desire to be viewed as a normal human wish, and not a selfish narcissistic obsession with being rewarded. I want to deserve more than to be continually crushed by the karma bus until I can't endure my life anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## convert

^^ Mrs Mathias don't cry.
I find it helpful to read Wayward spouse especially the wayward wife post to help me and my wife through R; 
If our R will work is still to be determined.
you, EI, Mrs Adams and others do help, you really do at least with some members me included.

you give others hope for R in that at least you are trying, you see my WW would never come here she is doing some heavy lifting but in my opinion not as much as you.


----------



## EI

Mrs_Mathias said:


> What I want is to someday deserve to have someone care for me. To care how I'm feeling, what I think. To look out for me. And I want that desire to be viewed as a normal human wish, and not a selfish narcissistic obsession with being rewarded. I want to deserve more than to be continually crushed by the karma bus until I can't endure my life anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Mrs. M., that was so beautifully stated, so heartfelt, and so honest. Is that not the wish of every thinking, feeling, living, breathing human being, not just FWS's? 

I refuse to believe that all cheaters suck any more than I believe a lot of other things that I read on TAM. 

Thank you for sharing this part of your journey with those of us on TAM who have followed your story. I believe it matters. I believe that you matter. 

I'm a former wayward spouse and I believe that I matter, too. My husband and my children think I do, and that's what matters most to me.


----------



## jld

Mrs_Mathias said:


> JLD wants to know what I deserve.
> 
> What I want is to someday deserve to have someone care for me. To care how I'm feeling, what I think. To look out for me. And I want that desire to be viewed as a normal human wish, and not a selfish narcissistic obsession with being rewarded. I want to deserve more than to be continually crushed by the karma bus until I can't endure my life anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


(((((MM)))))

You know from my previous post that I meant that question in the kindest way, sweetheart. I wanted you to be able to look at yourself as a fully deserving human being, not as someone wearing a label. That is part of the reason I asked you how you would want your daughter to answer it, if she were in your shoes (and I know you have only sons ).

MM, you are a human just like your husband, with all of the needs any other human has. At some point, you and he have to fully forgive each other for everything that has happened, and build anew. You cannot carry guilt forever.

No, TAM's opinion does not matter. Many here are very deep in suffering, and cannot see outside that suffering. While it can be useful to hear opinions, they cannot be taken personally. There is just too much of you that no one knows for anyone's opinion to count much beyond how helpful you perceive it to be. Disregard what does not speak to you.

MM, I would like to ask you, sincerely, to be honest with yourself. Answer the questions that I know are in your mind. Tell yourself the truth. No one here needs to know them. Your husband eventually does. But please be honest with yourself about what is needed in your life. And please do not feel shame. At this point, I don't believe it is serving you.


----------



## jld

EI said:


> I refuse to believe that all cheaters suck any more than I believe a lot of other things that I read on TAM.


:iagree:

Of course they do not. And we are all wise to question what is said here.


----------



## larry.gray

I like to think that Devastated Dad and CM left for the same reason. In many ways their story is similar - and while TAM had its place, it no longer was helping.

I certainly don't want to see you go away MM, but understand why if you do. Good luck to the both of you.


----------



## larry.gray

Mrs_Mathias said:


> What I want is to someday deserve to have someone care for me. To care how I'm feeling, what I think. To look out for me. And I want that desire to be viewed as a normal human wish, and not a selfish narcissistic obsession with being rewarded. I want to deserve more than to be continually crushed by the karma bus until I can't endure my life anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everyone deserves that, don't they?

The million dollar question is if Matt can be that person. I don't think you, he, nor anyone here can answer that. You're going to have to take the leap of faith. You're not going to know for years. 5 years down the road you might get it... but realize Matt _might_ never get there.


----------



## Philat

larry.gray said:


> Everyone deserves that, don't they?
> 
> The million dollar question is if Matt can be that person. I don't think you, he, nor anyone here can answer that. You're going to have to take the leap of faith. You're not going to know for years. 5 years down the road you might get it... but realize Matt _might_ never get there.


Beautifully said.


----------



## LongWalk

> I refuse to believe that all cheaters suck any more than I believe a lot of other things that I read on TAM.


I agree with EI that cheating cannot define a person as worthless. I am sure there are cheaters who are nice people. A friend of mine is cheater. She is a school teacher who loves children. Her husband refused to have children. By the time she convinced him that they should adopt they were too old. Her husband is not an empathetic person. He is absent, working abroad for long periods of time (His choide).

I know she feels guilty about cheating. No doubt she loves him but has lost attraction for him. She has no personality disorder. She is warm and giving.

Mrs Matthias is an eloquent person and at the very least she has pursuaded me that she desires to save her marriage. It seems that what she is struggling against is Matt's relative indifference. He may love her at a some level but he is ready to throw in the towel to end the ambiguity and pain.

But if Mrs M has to guard against being too spirited for fear of sparking a crack of antipathy that can shatter their R, she must be suffering. If suffering becomes the flavor of their marriage, perhaps she should end it.

Is she afraid of being a middle aged divorcee whose husband dumped her for cheating?

Does he feel that her pregnancy was a strategem to bind him fast after Dday 2? And if so, was if a bad one? (The photo of Mrs M and baby, what does it mean?)

These questions can never really be answered, but over time if Mrs M gives and gives to meet her husband's needs, the questions may become unimportant. 

I wonder what Mrs M feels when she sees the horse and rider paintings by OM and Matt. 

Assuming that Mrs M is meeting her husband's needs, is he trying to meet hers? Is security what is missing now?


----------



## sidney2718

Mrs_Mathias said:


> NN, I guess it's just the "affair season blues". Two years ago I had just put Matt through DDay1, and it's haunting to look back at. I have targeted counseling with Steve Harley periodically, and I try to focus each day on making the most of it, trying to move past my past. But it's difficult. I'm here more often than is good for me, I know. And I don't really know what compelled me to post after all this time except that it is so discouraging to read all the absolutes spouted here... Once a cheater, always a cheater - cheaters never change - reconciliation is just the time between affairs - once you catch them cheating you know who they really are, etc.
> 
> I don't believe my affair reflected who I really am. It showed me my weaknesses, what depths I am capable of, my absolute worst. But I am not my worst any more than I am my best. I want to be someone my sons can be proud of. I want to be more than six months of conscious bad decisions in 38 years of life. Occasionally I get the stupid idea that I could contribute something back here, that I could offer a well-thought viewpoint, or even just a glimpse into the actions and processes of someone making an effort to help mend the astronomical damage she wrought.
> 
> Idk what I'm rambling about really. I'm ok. Matt is doing as well as could be expected. We are no longer existing day to day, but I am aware that he could leave at any time, justifiably so. Sometimes I just wonder, in TAM's eyes, how many years do I grovel? Can I ever atone? Is there ever a point where I can show that I was worth staying with? To Matt and the rest of the world? Or will he always be better off if he would have left me?
> 
> I know that I am doing everything possible to help Matt. Matt has said it, our counselor has said it. So I guess the answer to those questions doesn't matter to my actions, ultimately. I just don't want Matt to wake up in 30 years and regret each day that he has spent with me. He deserves happiness and peace, in as much as that is possible after how I changed him.
> 
> Thank you for asking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How long do you have to grovel? That's complicated. First, it is up to Matt. But it is also up to you. You are not an object. You are a living human being and at some point you may need to push back a bit. But you must be careful because you do not want it to seem as if you are going back on your remorse. But if you can, in the future, sit down with Matt and talk about how you are living, it can work out. I say future because I'd advise doing nothing until some of the rawness of the situation wears off.

You are right, he could always decide to leave. But then, you could also decide to leave, so there is a real limit to the amount of grovelling you must do.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> But if Mrs M has to guard against being too spirited for fear of sparking a crack of antipathy that can shatter their R, she must be suffering. If suffering becomes the flavor of their marriage, perhaps she should end it.


I think so, too, LW. They both deserve to be happy.


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## Mrs_Mathias

Matt is doing the best he can. He's not indifferent. He allows me to show affection, spend time with him, and he reciprocates as he can. He really is amazing every day, given all that I've put him through. The real root of my issues currently is dealing with how I feel about myself. 

Everyone deserves to feel cared for. But everyone also deserves better than a cheater. I know Matt does. So I'm stuck. If I really care about someone, I want more for them than me. But I also want the opportunity to atone and rebuild a relationship with Matt. So those are opposites, and some days are harder than others to figure out which is really best.

And Matt knows the pregnancy was unintentional. The picture here is for me. Matt can upgrade to a better spouse. That little baby only gets me as a mom. So it's here to remind me not to give up, to keep looking to improve. My boys deserve better but I'm what they've got. So I will keep working to be better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

MM:

At some point, one needs to have the ability to go from the label of cheater to a person who cheated. Here is the key: an event or period of time does not define you unless you allow it to.

So please, for your sake, dispense with the cheater label. I have read your story, Matt ' s story, and your updates. Yes, you did some terrible things. But your actions since then have proven that these past events did not define you. 

And please, keep contributing to TAM. This place is better for it.


----------



## jld

MM, I hear so much guilt speaking. What would it take for the guilt to be lifted?


----------



## clipclop2

don't know enough of this story to know whether this is a form of self-indulgence or if this is genuine. beating up on your shelf can be as a attention and feel sorry for me thing. 

it's self indulgent and self pitying. 

I don't know it just strikes me as wrong after all this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Is your self esteem now better or worse than pre affair?

Can you make a list of all the absurd and humorous stuff concerning the affair? Write something that makes you laugh. When you feel down on yourself recite the craziest ironies in your head and laugh.

ClpClop is very incisive. You need to lift your eyes.

Do not allow yourself to even consider being an inadequate mother. That just puts a guilt trip on your husband. Let him feel that even were you to divorce, the two of you would be great parents.

If Matt gives up on your marriage, that is on him. You are totally committed to R.


----------



## LongWalk

Mrs J Adams,

Do you believe the pregnancy was pure chance?


----------



## calvin

clipclop2 said:


> don't know enough of this story to know whether this is a form of self-indulgence or if this is genuine. beating up on your shelf can be as a attention and feel sorry for me thing.
> 
> it's self indulgent and self pitying.
> 
> I don't know it just strikes me as wrong after all this time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I wonder about that also.
For awhile I thought that about my wife til I saw her pain was real,as real as mine.
You can't keep paying the dues forever,I needed to let it go and see if all the remorse was
true.
It was and is.
I don't think Mrs.M enjoys being here too much.I feel she's trying to find how to fix everything.
She reminds me of CSS in a way,I feel she means what she says and will never stop trying to
make things right.
I think there is a good chance for them.
It happend to me and a few other couples here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

LW - here's how I answered that to Rookie on 3/2/13. 




Mrs_Mathias said:


> I was on the pill. Matt knew it, my purchase records at our pharmacy would verify it. I took it every day since May. I stopped AFTER I discovered I was pregnant. I don't know how you got the impression I was not on birth control or had stopped it without my husband's knowledge. I am VERY serious about contraception and have spent most of my adult life perceiving pregnancy as a negative thing.
> 
> In addition, we had unprotected sex for THREE YEARS before I got pregnant with our son. My last doctor appointment before dis coving that pregnancy was about the likely necessity of fertility drugs if we really wanted to conceive due to my irregular cycles and the length of time we had been trying. It was very difficult for me to hear, and then our son seemed like a miracle. So before you adopt the typical uneducated male mindset that pregnancy is EASY or somehow can be a TOOL to use against men, check yourself. It's not easy for many of us. Not getting pregnant, and certainly not being pregnant. I was deathly ill for 2 full months with my first child. Lost 11 pounds instead of gaining any weight my first trimester, suffered extreme vertigo and neatly couldn't function. Yes, that sounds like an AWESOME solution to the absolute sh1thole my life is now. Let me snap my fingers. magically convince the husband that I cheated on to have sex with me during the 48 hour window that women are actually fertile in a month, telepathically direct a healthy sperm to make it all the way to my egg, successfully break in, fertilize it, force the egg to successfully implant in a uterus that is receiving anti-implantation hormones daily from a birth control pill, and THEN face my husband who hates me on any given day and give him the 2nd worst news of our lives. Not to mention, my brilliant ploy to be desperately seeking a new job and relocation, so that I get to interview while visibly pregnant. If you think that doesn't affect my chances you're fooling yourself. Plus the sickness, physical stress on my body, and financial stress. You're right!!!!! I'm a fvcking diabolical genius.
> 
> F you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

Mrs. John Adams said:


> clip clop...it has been thirty years since i cheated on my husband...i still beat myself up on a daily basis...
> 
> It is hard to explain...but when you truly are remorseful...it becomes consuming...I would say it is probably similar to the pain felt by the betrayed spouse.


How much of that is reflexive? It's only since coming to TAM that you've been able to give Mr A what he needs to see you truly are remorseful.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt is doing the best he can. He's not indifferent. He allows me to show affection, spend time with him, and he reciprocates as he can. He really is amazing every day, given all that I've put him through. The real root of my issues currently is dealing with how I feel about myself.
> 
> Everyone deserves to feel cared for. But everyone also deserves better than a cheater. I know Matt does. So I'm stuck. If I really care about someone, I want more for them than me. But I also want the opportunity to atone and rebuild a relationship with Matt. So those are opposites, and some days are harder than others to figure out which is really best.
> 
> And Matt knows the pregnancy was unintentional. The picture here is for me. Matt can upgrade to a better spouse. That little baby only gets me as a mom. So it's here to remind me not to give up, to keep looking to improve. My boys deserve better but I'm what they've got. So I will keep working to be better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Matt will never find someone that loves him more.

You have always given up a lot. Moving to where you did was big.

If you are as bad as you think you are, you would have left. You could have left, you did not.

You have not run from anything. A great person stays and fixes and that is what you have done.

You deserve all you ask for and more.


----------



## bandit.45

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Larry...I gave Mr JA all i knew to give for thirty years. I gave transparency...I gave I'm sorry, I gave devotion..I gave love. Did I make mistakes? Absolutely....
> He was not able to tell me what he needed...therefore I was not able to give what he needed. You must remember that my affair happened pre internet and cell phones...so information was not readily available for us like it is now.
> 
> After he came to TAM and figured out what he felt was missing...he was able to verbalize it and i was able to give it.
> 
> I had never heard of remorse....all I knew to say was I am sorry. I did not know I needed to accept responsibility for the pain I had caused. I did not know I needed to FEEL his pain. It is a very different thing to say I am sorry...and to actually take the pain on yourself.
> 
> So yes...since his coming to TAM, since reading the book how to help your spouse heal from your affair... we have been able to achieve complete remorse and forgiveness and healing.


So you and John were like 85% of the way but he was needing that crucial 15% more, and once you came to TAM the brilliantly discerning and helpful folks here helped you and him achieve 100%.....

I get it.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Matt is doing the best he can. He's not indifferent. He allows me to show affection, spend time with him, and he reciprocates as he can. He really is amazing every day, given all that I've put him through. The real root of my issues currently is dealing with how I feel about myself.
> 
> Everyone deserves to feel cared for. But everyone also deserves better than a cheater. I know Matt does. So I'm stuck. If I really care about someone, I want more for them than me. But I also want the opportunity to atone and rebuild a relationship with Matt. So those are opposites, and some days are harder than others to figure out which is really best.
> 
> And Matt knows the pregnancy was unintentional. The picture here is for me. Matt can upgrade to a better spouse. That little baby only gets me as a mom. So it's here to remind me not to give up, to keep looking to improve. My boys deserve better but I'm what they've got. So I will keep working to be better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You've just described the real dichotomy that someone who commits infidelity and tries to reconcile has to come to terms with. In many ways this is about forgiving yourself for hurting the one you love. It's going to take time but please don't give up.


----------



## Philat

I have to say: I find Mrs_Mathias to be a genuinely thoughtful and introspective person who has reached a state of what TAM considers to be "true remorse" (even though she may have taken the long way around to get there). She makes no bones about what she's done or the effect it has had on her marriage to a good man. I detect no blameshifting or excuse-making on her part. But she is an insightful thinker (as is Matt), and is able to look at the whole question of infidelity in some depth. And I find it discouraging that on those occasions when she tries to share these thoughts with TAM she inevitably ends up defending herself against phantom accusations that she is justifying her behavior as a cheater. As if any attempt to look at her behavior or that of others beyond the "I cheated, it's all my fault, I'm scum, I don't deserve anything" superficial plotline is an effort at self-justification. Any deviation from this script and the Cheaterspeak Patrol turns out in force to get her back in line.

I have learned a lot (as a BS) from Mrs_M's posts.


----------



## LongWalk

I don't think you are diabolical. The long explanation about the BC failure is nothing that I would debate with you. Matt may think about it, though.

The anger you express towards me should be redirected. If you feel down, ask your husband for some encouragement. Tell him you need some positive feedback. 

If he has become accustomed to you being in spiritual subordination, you need take a stand. If you tell him that you love him but need affirmation, he ought to step up and listen.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## manticore

LongWalk said:


> I don't think you are diabolical. The long explanation about the BC failure is nothing that I would debate with you. Matt may think about it, though.
> 
> The anger you express towards me should be redirected. If you feel down, ask your husband for some encouragement. Tell him you need some positive feedback.
> 
> If he has become accustomed to you being in spiritual subordination, you need take a stand. If you tell him that you love him but need affirmation, he ought to step up and listen.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


well technically speaking she never wrote nothing to you directly, she just quoted an old answer LOL


----------



## larry.gray

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Larry...I gave Mr JA all i knew to give for thirty years. I gave transparency...I gave I'm sorry, I gave devotion..I gave love. Did I make mistakes? Absolutely....
> He was not able to tell me what he needed...therefore I was not able to give what he needed.


What I said wasn't meant to imply that you weren't trying to do everything you knew how. I can certainly see how saying it the way I did could be taken that way, so sorry if it was received that way. 

The last part is what I meant, you being able to find out what helped him.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> You must remember that my affair happened pre internet and cell phones...so information was not readily available for us like it is now.


'

Yeah, on your timeline I noted when you said it happened. I was in JR high school, and I'm no kid.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> So yes...since his coming to TAM, since reading the book how to help your spouse heal from your affair... we have been able to achieve complete remorse and forgiveness and healing.


This is what I was getting at - does it help YOU? Does it help you feel better about yourself knowing Mr Adams is better?


----------



## calvin

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Larry...the answer is yes. We are in the best place in our relationship we have ever been in ...we have been married 42 years and we describe it as old newlyweds.
> I am so glad I was able to give him what he needed and in turn he was able to give me what I needed. Remorse and forgiveness.


 I like that,that's good Mrs.J.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

My take on R (having tried it for 30 years) is that it's like everything else -- sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. After I ended my 45 year marriage I was finally able to forgive my ex-husband and again care about him as a friend and see the good in him. I thought I was doing all that during R -- I was certainly trying to -- but it was only when I was away from it that I saw the difference. 

My point is that sometimes no matter how much the betrayed tries they can't get beyond it. And believe me they really do try. For awhile I thought of my R as a total failure because it eventually ended in divorce. Now I see it as just one of the stages of my life. My ex-husband said the other day he wished so much he hadn't been such a fool. I do too. But although we aren't together I love him as a friend and he's still part of my family. And I'm glad I still have that connection with him. A failed R doesn't always end that.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *BY Openminded*
> After I ended my 45 year marriage I was finally able to forgive my ex-husband and again care about him as a friend and see the good in him.


You are a success! Congratulations on your accomplishing forgiveness that is a real victory!


I have been in R with my wife for over 25 years and like you I am a success and have forgiven. That was a real gift for me and my wife says that is a real gift for her also!

We are proof that there are a least two ways to have sucess.


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## calvin

Openminded said:


> My take on R (having tried it for 30 years) is that it's like everything else -- sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. After I ended my 45 year marriage I was finally able to forgive my ex-husband and again care about him as a friend and see the good in him. I thought I was doing all that during R -- I was certainly trying to -- but it was only when I was away from it that I saw the difference.
> 
> My point is that sometimes no matter how much the betrayed tries they can't get beyond it. And believe me they really do try. For awhile I thought of my R as a total failure because it eventually ended in divorce. Now I see it as just one of the stages of my life. My ex-husband said the other day he wished so much he hadn't been such a fool. I do too. But although we aren't together I love him as a friend and he's still part of my family. And I'm glad I still have that connection with him. A failed R doesn't always end that.


 45 years?!
Wow...
No wonder you are so wise.
I'm sorry you could'nt get over it but its good you boh are friends.
Impressive Open.
I don't think about it much anymore,rarely bring it up yet its still there like a memeory
from when I was a kid.
We did normal couple cleaning the house stuff today after I got home from work.
We're almost done,soon...movie time.
I guess what matters most is people find peace after something like this.
If they stay together or not.
For me together is good.
I have a good girl?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Typo...I have a good girl,damn period right next to the ? On the keyboard!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

You're a good man, Calvin. A very good man. And you've had a hard road to travel. 

I didn't find peace until I divorced but those in a successful R do find it. You're well on your way.


----------



## OlderAndWiser

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm a music professor that is active in theater.
> 
> I saw a local counselor regularly for the first year after the affair, until she relocated. Her replacement was not a good fit for me. Harley is a marriage counselor, specifically infidelity oriented, through Marriage Builders. I was all over the map emotionally during my affair. Mostly confusion, guilt, sadness - no real anger or fear. I've come to accept that alot of my behavior fit the cheater script and a lot didn't. I never bad mouthed Matt. I always told AP that I loved Matt. *The first time I had sex with AP, I bawled in front of him both before and after about how conflicted I was. Sounds like an exciting time, doesn't it? Isn't that a memory to treasure, as all we Waywards do?* Doesn't that sound like the most exhilarating time in my life? Many posters here would have BS's believe that. It's not always true, just like everything else.
> 
> I was romantically immature, and not self-aware enough at that point to adequately evaluate my decision making process. You know all those internet quizzes that tell you your D&D alignment? I've always scored chaotic good. I'd been intuitive, instinctive in my interactions with people my whole life and this situation exploited that weakness. I'm better now about doubting everything and looking for real motivations before acting.
> 
> Physically, I wasted away from the stress of the affair even before discovery, and of course, even more rapidly so after. I lost 35 pounds over 6 months, which is a lot on someone 5'4" who wasn't much overweight to begin with. I was sleepless and drinking more pre-discovery than I really ever have in my life. Not that that is actually much - I never really drank more than once a month before, but was having some wine or beer 3-4 times per week.
> 
> I don't believe I have a personality disorder, or anything psychological like that. I had poor boundaries, a poor understanding of myself, poor discipline, and no knowledge of what an EA was, or that I should be guarding my interactions with other people. My top emotional needs can easily be filled in a non-romantic manner, so without my guard up, it is easy for someone else to start contributing to those and that's what tied me to AP chemically and emotionally before I even was aware of it.
> 
> But when he kissed me, I knew it was wrong, and I did it any way. That's the only statement in all of this that matters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. M

I realize your quoted post is a few days old, but I just caught up on this thread and the bolded part above really has me puzzled.

Before I go further, I want to say that I have followed your story from the beginning, and you are one of the handful of WS's that I really feel are trying to help others as well as yourselves by continuing to post in spite of the bashing you constantly take.

So, I'm not trying to bash you, but want to ask a question, which perhaps will help you with your own introspection. But if you'd prefer not to answer, that's fine also.

You "bawled" before the first time you had sex with OM because you felt conflicted. That sounds as though on at least some level you knew very well that going ahead was wrong and would perhaps bring your world crashing down. Yet you want ahead anyway. Do you have any idea why you apparently went against your your very strong instinct? What were your thoughts when you decided to go ahead? Or were there any thoughts at all? Was it strictly physical?

And afterward, you "bawled" again, which would seem to mean you knew what you had done was wrong and harmful to you and Matt, yet you continued the affair for months. Did you feel that since the vows were broken, it didn't matter?

Do you think you understand, at a basic level, why you did what you did when your heart or mind or something was screaming NO?

Again, don't want to bash, but if you can really find and truly understand the answer to these questions, I think it would go a long way toward resolving the inner turmoil you continue to suffer.

I wish you and Matt well, and hope things work out for you.


----------



## calvin

Openminded said:


> You're a good man, Calvin. A very good man. And you've had a hard road to travel.
> 
> I didn't find peace until I divorced but those in a successful R do find it. You're well on your way.


 Thank you Open.
I've seen other here with a row to hoe much harder than me.
You'd be one of them.
I know things are going pretty good and a lot of it is in my control.
It seems strange giving CSS credit in a way but I have to.
She's been very good.
Me?
I'm an armored plated SOB,I have to be.
I have plenty of weak spots though.
Ok,time for a chick flick.....August Osage County.
This can't be good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

OlderAndWiser said:


> Mrs. M
> 
> I realize your quoted post is a few days old, but I just caught up on this thread and the bolded part above really has me puzzled.
> 
> Before I go further, I want to say that I have followed your story from the beginning, and you are one of the handful of WS's that I really feel are trying to help others as well as yourselves by continuing to post in spite of the bashing you constantly take.
> 
> So, I'm not trying to bash you, but want to ask a question, which perhaps will help you with your own introspection. But if you'd prefer not to answer, that's fine also.
> 
> You "bawled" before the first time you had sex with OM because you felt conflicted. That sounds as though on at least some level you knew very well that going ahead was wrong and would perhaps bring your world crashing down. Yet you want ahead anyway. Do you have any idea why you apparently went against your your very strong instinct? What were your thoughts when you decided to go ahead? Or were there any thoughts at all? Was it strictly physical?
> 
> And afterward, you "bawled" again, which would seem to mean you knew what you had done was wrong and harmful to you and Matt, yet you continued the affair for months. Did you feel that since the vows were broken, it didn't matter?
> 
> Do you think you understand, at a basic level, why you did what you did when your heart or mind or something was screaming NO?
> 
> Again, don't want to bash, but if you can really find and truly understand the answer to these questions, I think it would go a long way toward resolving the inner turmoil you continue to suffer.
> 
> I wish you and Matt well, and hope things work out for you.


 Sounds like what an addict would do.
Addicts do and have reformed themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Pu$$y.


This is a "family friendly" thread, Bandit. If you continue to use language like that we may lose our PG-13 rating and our tax-exempt status. 

BTW, the Reconciliation thread now has over 1/2 million views and nearly 12,000 posts. Though I have often read on TAM that reconciliation is a myth, I think this proves that there are many people who share in the belief that successful reconciliation is not only a desirable option, for some couples, but is, in fact, very possible. Obviously, *both* partners must share in this desire, for all of the right reasons, for the possibility of a happy and successful reconciliation to exist.


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm not actually looking for TAM approval. The questions I posed are more rhetorical in nature, I guess, more generically wondering what the general population of BS's would want/need from their WS's to feel happy to be in a relationship with them.
> 
> I am confident Matt sees the changes I have consistently implemented over the last 18 months. But all the positive change in the world cannot negate the original harm, and ultimately may never be enough. That's just the reality of this situation I created.


MM, you are a good poster, and , a very remorseful WS, when you want to be. I think you need to talk to your counselor about your impatience and frustration issues. Your recent posts are almost always slanted towards the issue of WHEN you can see some easing of your marital woes.
A lot of your problems on TAM have to do with your phraseology and personality. . You ask how long a WS has to grovel? Who said anything about groveling? You mention on another thread about being rewarded for your renewed fidelity and no longer having to accept the "scraps" of Matt's affections, and things of this nature. Do you really believe that you are having to do this?
You are an aggressive, goal oriented person, and like many such people, you get impatient to see results and frustrated. These are the only issues I have with you. You, simply put, CANNOT expect reconciliation to proceed in a linear fashion. You should let patience and empathy guide your efforts. It is never about how well you dot the I's and cross the T's, it is about how much do you truly love your husband, and are you willing to go to the wall for him, without thought for yourself?.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> This is a "family friendly" thread, Bandit. If you continue to use language like that we may lose our PG-13 rating and our tax-exempt status.
> 
> BTW, the Reconciliation thread now has over 1/2 million views and nearly 12,000 posts. Though I have often read on TAM that reconciliation is a myth, I think this proves that there are many people who share in the belief that successful reconciliation is not only a desirable option, for some couples, but is, in fact, very possible. Obviously, *both* partners must share in this desire, for all of the right reasons, for the possibility of a happy and successful reconciliation to exist.


I don;t agree with this , at all. I think it shows that reconciliation is as varied as the number of views this thread has received.


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## nuclearnightmare

Mrs M

It's my strong impression that the most important thing you can do now, for yourself and for your family, is to find a good IC in your local area and work hard with that person to understand yourself. including why you cheated but many other things too. The IC could also be a source of support for you as you face your near term future. Focus on that and being with your husband. ....in the present.....not worrying about what the future may bring. Stop trying to control destiny at this point and develop a faith that things will work out OK, Regardless of what happens to your marriage.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Rookie4 said:


> MM, you are a good poster, and , a very remorseful WS, when you want to be. I think you need to talk to your counselor about your impatience and frustration issues. Your recent posts are almost always slanted towards the issue of WHEN you can see some easing of your marital woes.
> A lot of your problems on TAM have to do with your phraseology and personality. . You ask how long a WS has to grovel? Who said anything about groveling? You mention on another thread about being rewarded for your renewed fidelity and no longer having to accept the "scraps" of Matt's affections, and things of this nature. Do you really believe that you are having to do this?
> You are an aggressive, goal oriented person, and like many such people, you get impatient to see results and frustrated. These are the only issues I have with you. You, simply put, CANNOT expect reconciliation to proceed in a linear fashion. You should let patience and empathy guide your efforts. It is never about how well you dot the I's and cross the T's, it is about how much do you truly love your husband, and are you willing to go to the wall for him, without thought for yourself?.


Rookie, I think that you and I can never really communicate well in an online environment. You routinely pick the posts or phrases of mine that are most sarcastic and then attempt to offer your perspective as if that was my true feelings. Often you straight up make up words or inferences that are not there. 

What we have going on is a classic case of intercultural misunderstanding. It's a phrase from musicology when someone encounters something and evaluates it from within their own perspective instead of looking from the perspective of the creating culture. Listen to this clip: http://vimeo.com/m/7664442

It's a catchy tune, right? Your toes are tapping, you can probably hum it back after only one or two listens, and it will stick in your head all day. But it's not music.

What?!? But, no! It has melody, rhythm, harmony, all the building blocks that are part of musical language. But it is NOT music. It's postal workers canceling stamps in Ghana. And for all our perceptions that it is music to us, it will never change the fact that to the creators, it is not. It does not function as music in their society. It is not their INTENTION to create music, therefore, it is not music. It does not matter how we perceive it from the outside. It will never change the reality of what it is within their culture.

I have come to recognize that type of misunderstanding will largely always affect my posts here at TAM, especially most of the recent ones. They will always be viewed as about me, my affair, and my reconciliation, even when I specifically state otherwise. They will always be viewed through a film of "blameshifting" and "selfishness" etc. because I am a WS. There was a time when TAM helped me understand my husband's experience and my choices. It doesn't really do that anymore, even when I try to ask specific questions. (The post regarding groveling is not an example of specific questions that I was actually seeking answers on, btw.)

Calvin was right - there were a lot of aspects about my behavior when I resumed the affair after D-Day 1 that resembled addiction behavior. I recognize many of those traits lately in my usage of TAM. I come here out of negative stimulus, triggering from dates or other past choices. I feel worse for being here. I don't find what I am seeking - something useful to help with Matt's or my healing. I often feel less certain of things that I know I'm doing positively and well in my life after being here. Which feeds the unreasonable insecurity that I am not doing all the heavy lifting, that I am missing something, that I am failing my husband again - even when his specific words and actions show me those feelings are unwarranted. I react to that negative internal stimulus and come back to TAM, and the cycle starts/continues again.

So I need to do more than take a break from posting. I need to stop lurking. I need to stop making choices that are harmful to me. It difficult, because I really am grateful for all the positive support and knowledge that I have gained here. And it's difficult because I have an irrational fear of being perceived as a quitter - as not being sincere and remorseful enough to stick with the tough viewpoints of TAM. And I have a more legitimate fear that somehow I will miss something in my ignorance that could help Matt heal more completely, and he will be left more scarred than necessary because I stopped using this resource. 

I said goodbye to my AP 4 or 5 times after D-Day 1. I didn't follow-through with what I intended. I always found an excuse to fail, despite what it was costing me. Hopefully I've learned from that experience. 

Sincere thanks to all, especially this thread, for the many positive things you gave me. I will not forget those lessons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MM, you could start your own social group. That would be a safe way of getting support, without criticism.


----------



## bfree

Mrs JA, I would also like to offer this perspective. Yes there will always be a scar but it should not be a reminder of the wound. It should represent a healing, a triumph over failure and pain. That scar should be seen as a badge of courage or as a friend of mine put it "I see the emotional scars as matching tattoos representing renewed commitment to each other for forever."


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By-Bfree*
> Mrs JA, I would also like to offer this perspective. Yes there will always be a scar but it should not be a reminder of the wound. It should represent a healing, a triumph over failure and pain. That scar should be seen as a badge of courage or as a friend of mine put it "I see the emotional scars as matching tattoos representing renewed commitment to each other for forever."



WOW!

Bfree is a poet and don’t know it!

Not a mindless gossiper
But a talented philosopher




PS
Very good post Bfree!


----------



## calvin

Very good bfree,I like that and I believe it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

It seems to me that beating yourself up forever is not equivalent to remorse either. It is too self-focused. 

Would you recommend this to any of our children as a good way to live or as a badge of dishonor to show that they really get what they have done? I don't think so. Doing the right thing, loving with all their might, giving of themselves, sure. But this form of emotional cutting is not healthy. 

I think it is selfish.

So Matt has to deal with your emotions when he was the one that was hurt. Now and again you will feel the pangs of guilt and need some support. That's normal. But I think you may have bought the easy answer... Like my husband does. There is no subtly with him, he wants rules. If I do X it is good. If I do Y it is bad. Even if Y is good 90% of the time, because there is thinking involved to figure out if doing Y under these circumstances is bad, he will never risk Y again. Black and white. 

Yup. If you beat yourself up from now to eternity you can always claim to be remorseful. But you've removed a lot of good from your life because the subtlety is too much for you to handle.

It isn't worth it. 

Besides that it continues to punish everyone because it means mom is unhappy. A family cannot function when mom or dad is unhappy. Everyone feels it in some way or another.

I maintain this beating yourselves up, you too Mrs. JA, is unhealthy and possibly selfish. Or maybe safe. Whatever it is I do not believe it is what will get you to the finish line in good shape. Staying married surely isn't the only goal. My parents did that and I don't recommend out to any one!!! M!


----------



## EI

clipclop2 said:


> It seems to me that beating yourself up forever is not equivalent to remorse either. It is too self-focused.
> 
> Would you recommend this to any of our children as a good way to live or as a badge of dishonor to show that they really get what they have done? I don't think so. Doing the right thing, loving with all their might, giving of themselves, sure. But this form of emotional cutting is not healthy.
> 
> I think it is selfish.
> 
> So Matt has to deal with your emotions when he was the one that was hurt. Now and again you will feel the pangs of guilt and need some support. That's normal. But I think you may have bought the easy answer... Like my husband does. There is no subtly with him, he wants rules. If I do X it is good. If I do Y it is bad. Even if Y is good 90% of the time, because there is thinking involved to figure out if doing Y under these circumstances is bad, he will never risk Y again. Black and white.
> 
> Yup. If you beat yourself up from now to eternity you can always claim to be remorseful. But you've removed a lot of good from your life because the subtlety is too much for you to handle.
> 
> It isn't worth it.
> 
> Besides that it continues to punish everyone because it means mom is unhappy. A family cannot function when mom or dad is unhappy. Everyone feels it in some way or another.
> 
> I maintain this beating yourselves up, you too Mrs. JA, is unhealthy and possibly selfish. Or maybe safe. Whatever it is I do not believe it is what will get you to the finish line in good shape. Staying married surely isn't the only goal. My parents did that and I don't recommend out to any one!!! M!


:iagree:

I absolutely agree with this 100%. I will never be happy about the decision that I made to betray my husband and our children. B1 and I spent the better part of the first two years, after D-Day, digging deep and analyzing every aspect of our relationship; a relationship that has now spanned over 33 years from the time we first started dating when we were 16/17. We now feel that we both have a very clear understanding of ourselves, one another, and of our relationship. We are aways open and receptive to the way that the other is feeling. So, if he is feeling sad or down, for any reason, it will have a similar effect on me, and vice-versa. When he is down, it's my turn to be strong and positive for him. If I'm feeling down, he carries me. If he is feeling happy and content, then I feel happy and content. B1 and I are always there for one another, now. I know that my husband and my children deserve more than a broken, beaten down, depressed, defeated, and demoralized wife and mom. They deserve the very best me that I can possibly be. I strive to be that for them, and for myself, every day. B1 and I have chosen to continuously strive for happiness, together. 

Ecclesiastes 

3 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Whether those who are reading are Christians, or not, there is still wisdom in these words. There is a time for everything. Right now, B1 and I are embracing that this is our time to love, to dance, to rejoice, and to be happy. My family deserves the very best of me. They have given me this beautiful opportunity. I feel blessed.


----------



## jh52

EI said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I absolutely agree with this 100%. I will never be happy about the decision that I made to betray my husband and our children. B1 and I spent the better part of the first two years, after D-Day, digging deep and analyzing every aspect of our relationship; a relationship that has now spanned over 33 years from the time we first started dating when we were 16/17. We now feel that we both have a very clear understanding of ourselves, one another, and of our relationship. We are aways open and receptive to the way that the other is feeling. So, if he is feeling sad or down, for any reason, it will have a similar effect on me, and vice-versa. When he is down, it's my turn to be strong and positive for him. If I'm feeling down, he carries me. If he is feeling happy and content, then I feel happy and content. B1 and I are always there for one another, now. I know that my husband and my children deserve more than a broken, beaten down, depressed, defeated, and demoralized wife and mom. They deserve the very best me that I can possibly be. I strive to be that for them, and for myself, every day. B1 and I have chosen to continuously strive for happiness, together.
> 
> Ecclesiastes
> 
> 3 There is a time for everything,
> and a season for every activity under the heavens:
> 2 a time to be born and a time to die,
> a time to plant and a time to uproot,
> 3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
> a time to tear down and a time to build,
> 4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
> a time to mourn and a time to dance,
> 5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
> a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
> 6 a time to search and a time to give up,
> a time to keep and a time to throw away,
> 7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
> a time to be silent and a time to speak,
> 8 a time to love and a time to hate,
> a time for war and a time for peace.
> 
> Whether those who are reading are Christians, or not, there is still wisdom in these words. There is a time for everything. Right now, B1 and I are embracing that this is our time to love, to dance, to rejoice, and to be happy. My family deserves the very best of me. They have given me this beautiful opportunity. I feel blessed.


The song with the words from above:

The Byrds - Turn! Turn! Turn! - YouTube


----------



## seasalt

EI,

I think with your last post you provided the answer to the question I posed to you over a year ago that you couldn't or didn't want to aaddress at that time. I asked whether your leaving B in his depression while you picked up your self and left him behind wasn't an even greater betrayal than your affair?

When my wife is depressed there is no way I can be happy about anything.

It would be cheeky to say it pleases me to see that you can appreciate that thinking but maybe I am anyway. Pleased not cheeky.

Seasalt

P.S. Much better avatar now than the picture of you smiling over your shoulder. If I'm not mistaken about its timeline, and knowing what was going on when it was taken, it should have been deep sixed long ago.


----------



## bfree

What I'm going to say relates to WS but in reality it is for anyone that finds a fatal flaw or pervasive weakness in their personality and/or character. When I was attempting to drag myself out of the pit of drug and alcohol abuse I knew I needed to change. I needed to find better coping skills, I needed to end my dependence on external influences, and I needed to find my own place central in my core where my well of happiness existed. But before I could do that I need to be broken. I needed to empty my mind, soul and body of everything. I needed to purge myself and leave only an empty vessel to be filled. Just like a USMC drill instructor breaks down a civilian before he can rebuild the recruit into a soldier I needed to be torn asunder before I could be reassembled into a good, healthy individual. This is exactly the type of self reflection that is necessary for a WS to subject themselves to if they hope to conquer that part of themselves that allowed the betrayal. But remember that you need to do the rebuild. You need to conquer that weakness of character. And this is where others can come into play. For me it was a wonderful couple who had been through it before. They gave me the strength to never falter. For a WS it is the BS that gives strength, the strength that can only come from a loving heart. Without the rebuild you can never become whole. Self confidence, self forgiveness, and self trust are an integral part of rebuilding and strengthening that emotional and spiritual backbone. And with determination and love you can become stronger and wiser than you ever thought possible.


----------



## manticore

OlderAndWiser said:


> You "bawled" before the first time you had sex with OM because you felt conflicted. That sounds as though on at least some level you knew very well that going ahead was wrong and would perhaps bring your world crashing down. Yet you want ahead anyway. Do you have any idea why you apparently went against your your very strong instinct? What were your thoughts when you decided to go ahead? Or were there any thoughts at all? Was it strictly physical?


I don't mean to answer in her behalf, I am just reponding for what I remember Mr Mathias discussed about this in a previous post.

for what I remember while she was bawling and crying the POSOM keep pushing feeding the phantasy of how he loved her and how he can not help to feel that way and even begging in a way, I think he even asked something like "can I have you please?", of course a man who really cares for a woman would not go an keep pushing knowing perfectly that he would destroy her life as she knows it, but you know POS have ways to justify themselves.


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## Nostromo

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Manticore....the bottom line is this...she gave herself to another man. I gave myself to another man...EI gave herself to another man.
> 
> It doesn't matter what he said or how he said it...We had the power to say NO. We made the choice. It is NO one else's fault. This decision lies totally on us as WW's. I don't care how unhappy , or disillusioned we were as wives....we were not FORCED to make the decision to cheat.
> 
> Is the om to blame...of course he is...he knew he was taking another mans wife....he is the lowest scum bucket in the world.
> 
> I cannot give the om the total responsibility for what i did. I had every opportunity to say no......and so did every other woman who gave herself to another man except in the case of rape.


I've never heard this put so precise before. Not that you need my stamp of approval but I just had to log in for a moment to give you kudos. What you wrote here is a harsh pill to swallow, something a lot of people simply cannot or will not bring themselves to accept about their own actions, adultery or otherwise. I think this is the "missing piece" to the puzzle that many BS on here get so heated over when discussions about blame shifting pop up from time to time. Your post reminded me of a quote I once read, unfortunately I cannot recall which author said it.

"The only thing a man truly owns are his sins."-Unknown


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Rookie, I think that you and I can never really communicate well in an online environment. You routinely pick the posts or phrases of mine that are most sarcastic and then attempt to offer your perspective as if that was my true feelings. Often you straight up make up words or inferences that are not there.
> 
> What we have going on is a classic case of intercultural misunderstanding. It's a phrase from musicology when someone encounters something and evaluates it from within their own perspective instead of looking from the perspective of the creating culture. Listen to this clip: Cancelling Stamps in Ghana on Vimeo
> 
> It's a catchy tune, right? Your toes are tapping, you can probably hum it back after only one or two listens, and it will stick in your head all day. But it's not music.
> 
> What?!? But, no! It has melody, rhythm, harmony, all the building blocks that are part of musical language. But it is NOT music. It's postal workers canceling stamps in Ghana. And for all our perceptions that it is music to us, it will never change the fact that to the creators, it is not. It does not function as music in their society. It is not their INTENTION to create music, therefore, it is not music. It does not matter how we perceive it from the outside. It will never change the reality of what it is within their culture.
> 
> I have come to recognize that type of misunderstanding will largely always affect my posts here at TAM, especially most of the recent ones. They will always be viewed as about me, my affair, and my reconciliation, even when I specifically state otherwise. They will always be viewed through a film of "blameshifting" and "selfishness" etc. because I am a WS. There was a time when TAM helped me understand my husband's experience and my choices. It doesn't really do that anymore, even when I try to ask specific questions. (The post regarding groveling is not an example of specific questions that I was actually seeking answers on, btw.)
> 
> Calvin was right - there were a lot of aspects about my behavior when I resumed the affair after D-Day 1 that resembled addiction behavior. I recognize many of those traits lately in my usage of TAM. I come here out of negative stimulus, triggering from dates or other past choices. I feel worse for being here. I don't find what I am seeking - something useful to help with Matt's or my healing. I often feel less certain of things that I know I'm doing positively and well in my life after being here. Which feeds the unreasonable insecurity that I am not doing all the heavy lifting, that I am missing something, that I am failing my husband again - even when his specific words and actions show me those feelings are unwarranted. I react to that negative internal stimulus and come back to TAM, and the cycle starts/continues again.
> 
> So I need to do more than take a break from posting. I need to stop lurking. I need to stop making choices that are harmful to me. It difficult, because I really am grateful for all the positive support and knowledge that I have gained here. And it's difficult because I have an irrational fear of being perceived as a quitter - as not being sincere and remorseful enough to stick with the tough viewpoints of TAM. And I have a more legitimate fear that somehow I will miss something in my ignorance that could help Matt heal more completely, and he will be left more scarred than necessary because I stopped using this resource.
> 
> I said goodbye to my AP 4 or 5 times after D-Day 1. I didn't follow-through with what I intended. I always found an excuse to fail, despite what it was costing me. Hopefully I've learned from that experience.
> 
> Sincere thanks to all, especially this thread, for the many positive things you gave me. I will not forget those lessons.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. Mathias, You really , really need to stop over thinking your behavior, and also STOP!!! attempting to micro manage your reconciliation. I would like to suggest that you perhaps try yoga or something similar , to learn patience and empathy. Forget the double speak and talk from your heart, not your intellect. A wound never heals if you continue to pick at the scab.
You accuse me of picking apart your posts, but I've ALWAYS shown you support for your efforts and have only reminded you, when your posts show your impatience and frustration.. Perhaps, instead of fighting me, you might try thinking about it. Also, if you do not mean the words or phrases you say, then why say them?
I hope you find peace within yourself, because I don't think that you will be successful if you continue to try to remain in control mode. Good Luck to you.


----------



## russell28

Rookie makes good points.. I think the thing that helps me the most is that my wife just keeps telling me she'll leave if that's what I need, I can date if that's what I need, that it's always about me doing what I need and her letting me know that she'll understand no matter what I choose, and to hear that she is sorry without all the pre-affair marital problems or talk of unmet needs stuff.. her patience with me is huge. If I detected any sign of impatience, or frustration I think that would just give another reason to build resentments which is something a BS in R has to fight with great effort.


----------



## Headspin

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I too am a music major...though i am merely a performer not a professor...and music is music....I ....


 Must be something about us musicians !!


Mrs. John Adams said:


> The issue I sometimes see with us WW...is that we come across sounding almost Arrogant in our explanations of the events that occurred and the choices that we made. To some ...the perception is an excuse for our behavior rather than just accepting what we have done...without the buts ....and while i know that is a hard pill to swallow...for the BS is a a very deep and real reality.


 I think that's a very important acknowledgement and one that gives more respect to you from us bspouses



Mrs. John Adams said:


> You have been here a long time...to glean from both the bitterness posted and the positive constructive advice posted. This place is good...but harmful at times.
> ......and there are no guarantees...and sometimes.....there is just TOO much to deal with...too much that goes against you....
> *I certainly think many people that divorce... still love each other...but I think the circumstances are just to great an obstacle to get over....I think too much damage has been done to repair it or patch it and you need to scrap the project and start over.*
> Reconciliation is not for everyone....and no matter how badly we may want it....we just can't weather the storm.
> ,..........yet the destruction is too deep to repair....and that is ok....sometimes it just doesn't work.....but they have given it a valiant effort.


That is where I found myself when confronted with a 5th reconciliation recently at xmas. She said "I know we still love each other we and owe it to us and the children to go for it one last time"....my point was love for once is not the issue - trust is and it will never be even 90% . Too much damage to repair that on this occasion was beyond even my powers of forgiveness.

_________

Have to say I often disagree with you but on this occasion good post from my perspective


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## LongWalk

Mrs M,

Thank you for posting the Ghana clip. People have long used music to get through onerous labor. That doesn't mean it is good music or the music that they are fond of listening to.

Perhaps you should put more energy into music instead of TAM if the forum is bringing you down.

On this forum there are husbands and wives whose spouses are leaving them. They are not willing or able to rebond through sex. They are not willing to have another child. They are gone.

You are were not leaving. You knew your AP had no intention of making a life with you. The affair was a misadventure in an infatuation. You gave yourself to this boy-man in a vain attempt to change the facts. It was apparent to you that it would fail. That is perhaps the primary reason that you cried after consummating the the forbidden physical connection.

You are now in R which, although painful, has a real chance of success. You simply have to stick it out. You've told Matt that you feel unworthy and that he deserves better. He has chosen to R. Run with it.


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## Turin74

That is spot on.Rookie,

Perfect observation. It was very obvious to me - the striking dissonance between the emotional component of Mrs.M ordeal (arguably the most emotional of CWI - at least recent) and a very academic, calculated and dry style of her posts. I personally believe that Mrs.M communication style caused her some misjudgement while her actions and intentions were honest and genuine. While we are of a less significance, I can't stop wondering if this is relevant to the progress of her R and the healing of her H.




Rookie4 said:


> .Forget the double speak and talk from your heart, not your intellect. A wound never heals if you continue to pick at the scab.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## OlderAndWiser

manticore said:


> I don't mean to answer in her behalf, I am just reponding for what I remember Mr Mathias discussed about this in a previous post.
> 
> for what I remember while she was bawling and crying the POSOM keep pushing feeding the phantasy of how he loved her and how he can not help to feel that way and even begging in a way, I think he even asked something like "can I have you please?", of course a man who really cares for a woman would not go an keep pushing knowing perfectly that he would destroy her life as she knows it, but you know POS have ways to justify themselves.


Thanks Manticore and Mrs. JA, but perhaps I didn't state my question clearly enough. I wasn't asking what OM said, but rather what the process in Mrs. M's head was.

Picture the old cartoon with Syvester trying to decide whether to eat Tweetie Bird. A common theme was an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other shoulder whispering in the cat's ear. The angel is saying "No", and the devll is saying yes. Finally, the devil wins out. What was the "tipping point", the last thought (fed by the devil) that made her decide to go for it against all the good arguments from the angel in her.

I think her identifying and understanding the last part of the thought process would go a long way in her understanding of herself and thus help her recovery.


----------



## Philat

Let's not forget that both Mrs. JA and EI have found a path that has led them to reconciliation -- they have managed by different means to give JA and B1 what they needed to heal. Mrs_M has not found this yet--she is still looking. She is not beating herself up for the fun of it--she is trying to find this path. Her style is introspective and analytical--this is who she is. And this is how she is conducting her search. If and when she finds what she is looking for, and she and Matt turn the corner toward true R, then she can worry about whether she should be doing yoga or not.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



OlderAndWiser said:


> Thanks Manticore and Mrs. JA, but perhaps I didn't state my question clearly enough. I wasn't asking what OM said, but rather what the process in Mrs. M's head was.
> 
> Picture the old cartoon with Syvester trying to decide whether to eat Tweetie Bird. A common theme was an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other shoulder whispering in the cat's ear. The angel is saying "No", and the devll is saying yes. Finally, the devil wins out. What was the "tipping point", the last thought (fed by the devil) that made her decide to go for it against all the good arguments from the angel in her.
> 
> I think her identifying and understanding the last part of the thought process would go a long way in her understanding of herself and thus help her recovery.


Wow, the angel and devil on opposite shoulders really hit home with me not in the sense of infidelity but my drug use. I actually vividly recall such a moment. I was already abusing alcohol and at the time I had already had a few. It would be easy to say that my judgement was impaired but it would be bullsh!t for me to go there. No, I was sober enough to realize that I was standing on the precipice of the pit I was eventually going to have to climb out of, although at the time I rationalized that I was worthless and nobody would miss me if I just dropped dead. I've gone over that moment in my mind a million times. It seems like I debated for hours when the reality was it was probably only a few seconds. The tipping point for me was that I was so full of self pity and self loathing that I just didn't care anymore. I didn't care about me, my family or anyone else. It was a very selfish decision on my part. Even though I hated myself all I could think of was myself at that time. Although I didn't commit infidelity that point right there proved to me that I could. The rationalization was the same and if circumstances were right I would have cheated. With that decision I betrayed myself, my family and everyone who knew or thought they knew me. I am a sinner, I have sinned and know I can sin again.


----------



## Headspin

Mrs. John Adams said:


> O&W....that's a very good question...and I am thinking about it and trying to answer it in my own mind.....what was the very last thought that made me decide to proceed?
> 
> Wow....excitement, lust, hope, denial,fantasy, fear, adrenalin, and ultimately just ME... I remember saying to the om...I can't do this...and I proceeded to do it. Was there one thought that was the turning point? No...it was a combination of all these things I have listed. My mind was racing a hundred miles an hour....and you are right...good verses evil on each shoulder.....It makes me sad....because I could have chosen good over evil and yet i didn't. What made that day different from any other day in my life where good would have won? How did I let myself get to that place? to step over the line? Will I ever really know ...WHY?
> 
> You have certainly made me think this morning. I hope Mrs M has a more definitive answer than I have....


You see this is a good post. Are you watching this Mrs Math?

What can you see missing from these few lines from Mrs JA?
Have you noticed it yet ? No?

What about now? seen what's missing yet ?

Here you go....

"Well of course I was sorry ...but Yes I am remorseful but when he, this was something I need but he never etc etc he made no efforts, selfishness is not a reason for infidelity etc etc"...

That's what's missing and that's why MrsJA has got such a good shot at it because ultimately what's missing in the above are excuses and blame shifting. Mr JA doesn't actually have much more to aim his gun at, because her responsibility is full.

The finger remains pointed inwardly at herself - like it should be and from there it can only get better. There's not many of us when someone is prostrate at your feet begging forgiveness with no excuses that can just stamp on them - one or two maybe but very few. 

Look at this post from her. Really look at it. She does not to this day even really know why she pulled that sh!t BUT that is better than whining on about some back dated unmeet need from 20years ago. None of us are perfect and most of us are capable of bad sh!t, inexplicably sometimes...BUT acknowledging it is the first step - the very first. 

Even if you can't explain it, the fact that you are putting nothing else in it's place as an excuse is a redemptive act

Well said MrsJA


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## sidney2718

I think there are several groups here talking right past each other. Mrs JA has correctly (in my view) pointed out that the fact of the infidelity itself lies with the cheater and not with the BS.

But most of the talk has been about how to move past the affair. That issue is more complex. Now one has not only to deal with the WS's problems and the infidelity, but with the BS's problems as well. That the WS had an affair does not give the BS a free pass on fixing problems.

IIRC both EI's and Mrs. JA's husbands had problems that came out during the reconciliation period and needed to be addressed. They were addressed. Neither BS hid behind the affair and claimed that they did not have to do anything.

So yes, the one who had the affair has to own it and all the pain it caused. The other spouse is still very likely responsible for their share of the marital difficulties that led to the marital disaster of the affair. This is NOT excusing the WS. It is necessary for the couple to get off the dime and move on.


----------



## cpacan

*Sv: Re: Reconciliation...*



sidney2718 said:


> I think there are several groups here talking right past each other. Mrs JA has correctly (in my view) pointed out that the fact of the infidelity itself lies with the cheater and not with the BS.
> 
> But most of the talk has been about how to move past the affair. That issue is more complex. Now one has not only to deal with the WS's problems and the infidelity, but with the BS's problems as well. That the WS had an affair does not give the BS a free pass on fixing problems.
> 
> IIRC both EI's and Mrs. JA's husbands had problems that came out during the reconciliation period and needed to be addressed. They were addressed. Neither BS hid behind the affair and claimed that they did not have to do anything.
> 
> So yes, the one who had the affair has to own it and all the pain it caused. The other spouse is still very likely responsible for their share of the marital difficulties that led to the marital disaster of the affair. This is NOT excusing the WS. It is necessary for the couple to get off the dime and move on.


Yes, I agree with you, BUT... The reason why so many bs get stuck in their work is that their WS keeps saying "but" and try to point the finger in the wrong direction.

MrsJA, thankyou for a very good and illustrative post. It doesn't get much better than that.


----------



## russell28

sidney2718 said:


> I think there are several groups here talking right past each other. Mrs JA has correctly (in my view) pointed out that the fact of the infidelity itself lies with the cheater and not with the BS.
> 
> But most of the talk has been about how to move past the affair. That issue is more complex. Now one has not only to deal with the WS's problems and the infidelity, but with the BS's problems as well. That the WS had an affair does not give the BS a free pass on fixing problems.
> 
> IIRC both EI's and Mrs. JA's husbands had problems that came out during the reconciliation period and needed to be addressed. They were addressed. Neither BS hid behind the affair and claimed that they did not have to do anything.
> 
> So yes, the one who had the affair has to own it and all the pain it caused. The other spouse is still very likely responsible for their share of the marital difficulties that led to the marital disaster of the affair. This is NOT excusing the WS. It is necessary for the couple to get off the dime and move on.


The BS is usually aware that they were less than perfect, but weren't aware that the problems they had in the marriage were being used as a reason to lie to them and share intimacy with someone other than them. They don't need to be constantly reminded of their failings, they are usually at an all time low as far as self esteem and self image at that point. I don't see where beating them down with blame would be helpful for them. If the priority is them, then what would be the motivation to constantly point it out? They might not know how imperfect they were, they need to be reminded? At some point can that part of it get dropped.. the "own it 100%.. *BUT...* " The BS is aware of the "but".. I started a thread, everyone was made aware of where we screwed up upon discovery. The list of 'reasons' gets read off. There's no reason to keep repeating it over and over to the BS.. I would expect a simple "I'm sorry" is better.. than "I'm sorry, but you kind of pushed me into it.." From the point of trying to R.


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## russell28

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *but it was me that reached to someone else and not to him*. .


Bingo.. we have bingo..


----------



## russell28

The bolded comment wasn't directed at anyone, not EI or B1, you are reading that into it.. it's just general observations, my wife said pretty much the same thing you said and it was a different type of affair altogether, but they share that in common. So it struch a chord with me. You both also have in common that you've admitted it to yourselves, and I think that's good. There are certain things that all affairs have in common. The third party being introduced into the relationship for example. I thought the subject of blame shifting came up again because of some recent comments that weren't from EI. I think it was Mrs. M. that brought up some examples, like the 'all people are selfish' line was one. Not 'I was selfish'.


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## Rookie4

Philat said:


> Let's not forget that both Mrs. JA and EI have found a path that has led them to reconciliation -- they have managed by different means to give JA and B1 what they needed to heal. Mrs_M has not found this yet--she is still looking. She is not beating herself up for the fun of it--she is trying to find this path. Her style is introspective and analytical--this is who she is. And this is how she is conducting her search. If and when she finds what she is looking for, and she and Matt turn the corner toward true R, then she can worry about whether she should be doing yoga or not.


Dude, reconciliation is not an end, it is a process. Anything that can help Mr's M with her anxiety, will also help her BS.


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## russell28

I'm trying to play nice.. 

My wife said to me something along the lines of "I should have talked to you, not him (guy in work)" So what you said sounded familiar to me, and sounded like someone that is aware of where they went wrong.

Saying "all people are selfish to an extent" is like saying (sounds like to this BS) "you'd do exactly what I'd do in that situation, it was a perfectly normal reaction that normal people do".

How does that person fix the problem, if they can't see the problem? All people are not selfish to that extent. Not even close to all.. many, but not all.


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## Philat

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, reconciliation is not an end, it is a process. Anything that can help Mr's M with her anxiety, will also help her BS.


As someone who has been in it for several years, dude, I can guarantee you that I know reconciliation is a process. Being reconciled is the end. Mrs. JA/JA and EI/B1 are there; Mr. and Mrs_M are not.


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## Rookie4

Philat said:


> As someone who has been in it for several years, dude, I can guarantee you that I know reconciliation is a process. Being reconciled is the end. Mrs. JA/JA and EI/B1 are there; Mr. and Mrs_M are not.


I'm not disagreeing with you. My idea is that Yoga or anything else that can relax Mrs. M and focus her mind, can only help her.


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## clipclop2

it's just that you sound a lot more fixed than most marriages were there was an infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare

I'm switching back to a 'speaking in general' mode now and so nothing is directed at any individual poster in particular -- 

The above is an interesting discussion but it again underscores for me how logically "pure" the idea of the BS divorcing the WS is. While at the same time how logically difficult the idea of BS and WS reconciliation is. I use the term "logically" because of course in practical terms it is often just the opposite.

IMO a spouse cheating is essentially an 'attack' by the WS on the BS. Whether the WS sees it this way is barely relevant, if at all. so the logic of the BS striking back is "pure" in that sense.....i.e. easy for both the BS and WS to understand the rationale of BS initiating divorce – straightforward concept – albeit unpleasant perhaps.

OTH if the two partners enter into R the whole situation takes on a number of contradictions. 
-- The WS is to help the BS "heal" from the attack the WS initiated. If you attack me I heal from striking back. How do I heal otherwise?? The logic of action-reaction gets turned on its head.
-- The WS will quickly realize that in R it is no longer a marriage of equals in the normal sense. The BS now has some real power advantages, just as we see in the preceding discussion and points made by Mrs M. How can the WS now open up discussion around the pre-existing (and still existing) marriage issues?? The answer is they can’t – unless the BS allows it. The WS is perpetually walking on thin ice, under the control of the BS. When does the WS no longer have to “grovel” (per question by Mrs M)? Answer – when the BS decides they no longer have to. When is the BS no longer allowed to bring up the affair? Answer – when the BS decides they no longer should. At what point should the BS forgive the WS? Answer – when the BS decides they can, if they can. If the WS objects to any of these dynamics – the BS can remind the WS of the “gift” they bestowed upon them when they accepted to attempt R, which is process that is complete when? Answer – when the BS decides it is complete. 
-- We could say that the BS needs to not exploit all these power advantages endlessly. But who does not want to exert power over someone that has attacked them??

An R born out of first a D and then both partners choosing to remarry is not haunted by many of these dynamics IMO. The logic now much more “pure”, the practicalities on the other hand…….


----------



## LongWalk

Well reasoned, Nuclear. However, personality also comes into play. Some cheaters are strong personalities and they will not R with a foot on their neck. Rhode Scholar's wife was one interesting example.

Mrs Matthias was not a quiet submissive woman prior to the affair. It is not easy for her be weaker in the relationship. But the problem is that Matt might shrug his shoulders and call it day if she irritates him.


----------



## clipclop2

If the BS doesn't do "mercy" very well, R is going to be long and tortuous on both parties.


----------



## calvin

nuclearnightmare said:


> I'm switching back to a 'speaking in general' mode now and so nothing is directed at any individual poster in particular --
> 
> The above is an interesting discussion but it again underscores for me how logically "pure" the idea of the BS divorcing the WS is. While at the same time how logically difficult the idea of BS and WS reconciliation is. I use the term "logically" because of course in practical terms it is often just the opposite.
> 
> IMO a spouse cheating is essentially an 'attack' by the WS on the BS. Whether the WS sees it this way is barely relevant, if at all. so the logic of the BS striking back is "pure" in that sense.....i.e. easy for both the BS and WS to understand the rationale of BS initiating divorce – straightforward concept – albeit unpleasant perhaps.
> 
> OTH if the two partners enter into R the whole situation takes on a number of contradictions.
> -- The WS is to help the BS "heal" from the attack the WS initiated. If you attack me I heal from striking back. How do I heal otherwise?? The logic of action-reaction gets turned on its head.
> -- The WS will quickly realize that in R it is no longer a marriage of equals in the normal sense. The BS now has some real power advantages, just as we see in the preceding discussion and points made by Mrs M. How can the WS now open up discussion around the pre-existing (and still existing) marriage issues?? The answer is they can’t – unless the BS allows it. The WS is perpetually walking on thin ice, under the control of the BS. When does the WS no longer have to “grovel” (per question by Mrs M)? Answer – when the BS decides they no longer have to. When is the BS no longer allowed to bring up the affair? Answer – when the BS decides they no longer should. At what point should the BS forgive the WS? Answer – when the BS decides they can, if they can. If the WS objects to any of these dynamics – the BS can remind the WS of the “gift” they bestowed upon them when they accepted to attempt R, which is process that is complete when? Answer – when the BS decides it is complete.
> -- We could say that the BS needs to not exploit all these power advantages endlessly. But who does not want to exert power over someone that has attacked them??
> 
> An R born out of first a D and then both partners choosing to remarry is not haunted by many of these dynamics IMO. The logic now much more “pure”, the practicalities on the other hand…….


 Very decent post.
It is a gift to the right person,so much depends on the WS seeing this.
The BS does have a lot of power where before they felt helpless.
Its tempting to use that power too much to try and make the WS feel the pain also.
Even the best of R's can be a clusterfvck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Headspin

That point - the wayward knowing in their heart they have been given a supreme gift in even be allowed to attempt to reconcile - is the key to a proper restart

Like many I've been through this and with hindsight it's so easy to see how my particular wspouse never perceived this a such. She's one of the many.

I think it's easy to see those on here that actually believe this is 'gift' and have respect for that fact. Sadly easy to see those that do not either


----------



## Philat

LongWalk said:


> Well reasoned, Nuclear. However, personality also comes into play. Some cheaters are strong personalities and they will not R with a foot on their neck. Rhode Scholar's wife was one interesting example.
> 
> *Mrs Matthias was not a quiet submissive woman prior to the affair. It is not easy for her be weaker in the relationship. But the problem is that Matt might shrug his shoulders and call it day if she irritates him.*


LW, we haven't heard from Matt since late last year, but at his last report he was struggling with the feeling that Mrs._M's affair made everything that was once special in their marriage, special between the two of them, no longer so. This was his obstacle to R. And this will be an issue for him regardless of how Mrs_M acts, regardless of her level of submission, regardless of her level of anxiety, and regardless of her level of remorse. There is literally nothing that she can do about it, which is the saddest part of their story. It is strictly up to Matt at this point, and he seems as yet unsure.

The destructiveness of infidelity is nowhere better illustrated than in their story, IMO.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Philat*
> LW, we haven't heard from Matt since late last year, but at his last report he was struggling with the feeling that Mrs._M's affair made everything that was once special in their marriage, special between the two of them, no longer so. This was his obstacle to R. And this will be an issue for him regardless of how Mrs_M acts, regardless of her level of submission, regardless of her level of anxiety, and regardless of her level of remorse. There is literally nothing that she can do about it, which is the saddest part of their story. It is strictly up to Matt at this point, and he seems as yet unsure.
> 
> The destructiveness of infidelity is nowhere better illustrated than in their story, IMO.



*For the vast majority of BSs Philat is right*. If your marriage was special because you were sure that your spouse would never replace you with another man/woman, that he/she would never so reject you to the extent that you are no longer the special one, that you can alsways trust him/her 100%, then the loss of that specialness will be an issue no matter how the WS acts.

Mrs. JA gave a GREAT post that is full of HOPE. One of the reasons that her post is so powerful is because she is not talking about a theory but something that she and Mr. JA have achieved. I admire Mr. and Mrs. JA! However, as Mrs. JA has mentioned in past posts, infidelities are different in many cases. Although all infidelities are terrible, MR. JA did suffer tremendously, but some infidelities are worse than the Adam’s infidelity in some ways.


Additionally, as Calvin has stated the BS and the WS have a lot to do with the final outcome. I think that MR. and Mrs. JA are outstanding and the exception. I am NOT saying that you can not have a very good R;* I am saying that you can have a very good R with accepting that you have lost something special and can build other special connections.*

Mr. and Mrs. JA’s Reconciliation is the best and longest that I have ever read on TAM. The hope that they give is enormous. However, *for those of us that have lost something special, I say, do not be discouraged because you feel that you have lost something. You can still have a very good reconciliation and build other special connections.*IMO


----------



## LongWalk

Healer is BH who gave up on reconciliation with is WW. She told him he would be able to stick it out. They had good hysterical bonding. She had two affairs and ran up a debt snorting coke. She knew trust was gone.

Mrs Matthias is educated and rational. She probably can be trusted. So everything comes down to what is special between them? She washed away the romantic history leading to the commitment to monogamy. But she got pregnant in R. Let us accept her claim that it was a freak accident of BC failure. One can say that her body and mind united to give Matt another child. That is a unique evolutionary claim to being a couple.

Mrs M documents her commitment here on TAM. Call it a kind of diary to which there are witnesses. Is this convincing to Matt? Does he care that the majority of her thread followers are rooting for R?

In one of her recent posts Mrs M said that Matt permits intimacy. So they are struggling forward, pulled by Mrs M. I think that a jld would like to see Matt hop off the wagon and help her pull, without talking about it. He would, according to this line of reasoning, cause her to to love him even more and thus make their marriage more rewarding to both.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> I think that a jld would like to see Matt hop off the wagon and help her pull, without talking about it. He would, according to this line of reasoning, cause her to to love him even more and thus make their marriage more rewarding to both.


I think he could still talk about it. I think his transparency and vulnerability would be healing to himself and MM.

I do not believe reconciliation will be complete without Matt's becoming the leader. MM cannot carry him. Some women here can carry a man, but I do not believe MM can. 

If Matt cannot at some point do this, I think eventually MM will decide that enough is enough, and walk away.


----------



## soulpotato

FG, Mrs M, bfree, EI, others - thank you all, so much. I was shocked at your kindness. I guess I shouldn't have been. It's just how you are. It was more that I was so upset with myself that I didn't feel I deserved it. 

GF and I discussed things with each other and with the therapist, and GF said she could in no way meet my needs, even at the low bar. But she doesn't think I'm a bad person. Strangely enough, she has been very understanding about the breaking of NC. (What actually happened was that the ex directed a message to me, and it was unfortunately at my weakest point - I didn't have the strength of will not to reply. We discussed what happened at the beginning of last year, some psychology, etc.) 

So anyway, GF and I split this past Tuesday. There was lots of crying and misery (naturally I self-harmed a little in the session, but it was mostly just to soothe myself as I was very distressed). The therapist suggested we meet in a couple of weeks to evaluate things? So that's what we're going to do. Though 2 weeks won't change anything, but okay. GF and I had discussed a slightly different alternative of the future the same night - that we do our self-work for a while, and maybe 6 months from now, we'll check in with each other to see if there is any chance to be successful (or still any interest in that). I thought she wouldn't be interested, but she said that she really doesn't want a future without me, preferably as her partner. She texted that to me last night, as well as a bunch of other things about how much she loves me and misses me. I just wish she could show the love she showed last night while we're actually in a relationship and trying to make things work. 

I'm glad there's a little hope, maybe. It will allow me to pull myself together a bit better for the time being - even if that little hope comes to nothing in the end. The last two days at work have been hell, and I couldn't hide how broken I've felt. I just didn't care about anything at all anymore. 

So yeah, that's where we are. My therapist had me order some workbook and wants me to start on it as soon as it gets here. In addition to all the journal entries I send her and other assignments.



bfree said:


> SP, you are a good person. Even good people stumble. You need to find good in yourself. Other people see it. But when you continue to run yourself down people start to question whether the good they see is just their imagination. You can only truly be loved when you feel you should be loved.


Thank you, bfree, it means a lot to me for you to say that. My own view of myself changes so much, sometimes I believe that I'm imagining the good in me, too. Only my loved ones feel continually certain that it's there. I think I might actually have a lot of good in me, though. It's the battle with the brokenness that's the trouble. I am not sure I will ever feel deep down that I should be loved. I don't know how. I've been in therapy for more than a year and a half and I still can't feel that.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> SP, I'm so sorry for you and GF. But it's clear that despite all your efforts with counseling, etc., you cannot maintain a relationship that is mutually satisfying. You have come so far in understand yourself, improving your weaknesses, and attempting to become a better partner. Don't lose sight of that, despite breaking NC. You can get back on track, and leaving this relationship is necessary. You need a environment where your partner understands and helps protect your weaknesses, instead of continually leaving you to struggle with them alone.
> 
> Please, continue to take care of yourself, know that you are a valuable person, and that a fulfilling relationship is possible, just not with this partner. Better days are ahead.


Mrs M, thank you. You're right, it was not working for a good part of the time. I felt so sad when GF said she loved me for trying so hard. I feel like it was all for nothing because I couldn't keep doing it, but I also have to learn that no matter how much I want something to work, I can't do it all on my own. GF has a lot of her own work to do as well, and she is finally, FINALLY starting IC. I begged her for so long. Oh well, people have to do things at their own pace. 

I'm trying, Mrs M. I'm going to keep working on myself.




Forever Grateful said:


> First of all, despite the circumstances it is good to hear from you SP.
> 
> Second, I'm sorry your relationship with GF/DS has taken this turn. I didn't want to say this on your last thread but I agree with some others that maybe it is time to walk away from this relationship for your own good.
> 
> And please stop bad mouthing yourself. Anyone who has read your post would know that you've been working your a-- off on self improvement.


FG, I'm sorry I've been gone for so long. I've missed you and others here. I probably should have turned to you or EI or someone here when I started slipping, but I was too ashamed. I do agree that GF and I need to be apart. Maybe for a while, maybe forever. I don't know yet. But I know I couldn't stay in the relationship for another week with how horrible I felt. I love GF more than I can bear, and I wanted to be able to endure anything at all for her sake, but I just couldn't.  That's my selfishness - I can't be a piece of furniture, I need to be her wanted, beloved romantic partner. If I were to be able to stay there with her, that is. 

I'm sorry, I'm just so disappointed in myself. I have worked my a$$ off, but then...failure. I hate failure. I feel disgusted with myself. But I will keep going.




jld said:


> I am glad to see the bolded. You have a seed of self-love inside you, soul. Nurture it.
> 
> Your partner cannot help you. You need support. She is not able to give it. I think separating is a win/win.
> 
> So happy to see you at this point, soul. I think being able to walk away could be the start of a much healthier soulpotato.


I don't know if it's self-love or not. You are right that she cannot help me. She is fighting her own battles, and I was just in the way. It has to be this way for a while (or maybe indefinitely). I think I am healthier than I was a year ago, which maybe no one here will believe, but the therapy is working. Just more slowly than I would like.


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## calvin

Long time no see Sp.
Thanks for the update,it sounds decent.
None of us can predict the future.
It sounds like you and GF have got a good grasp on what's going on and
are leaving the door open for now while you two do a little thinking.
Good luck in everything Sp.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

Be careful about holding on to that hope as it could prevent you from realizing how wonderfully open your future truly is. It may ease your pain a bit, not sure how much, but it also drags it out.

You did the right thing. That showed a lot of strength.


----------



## CharlieParker

*Re: Unique Thread*



soulpotato said:


> I'm sorry, I'm just so disappointed in myself. I have worked my a$$ off, but then...failure. I hate failure. I feel disgusted with myself. But I will keep going.


Good to hear from you, sorry it's not with better news. Don't beat yourself up too much, it's called real life and it is messy.


----------



## soulpotato

clipclop2 said:


> Be careful about holding on to that hope as it could prevent you from realizing how wonderfully open your future truly is. It may ease your pain a bit, not sure how much, but it also drags it out.
> 
> You did the right thing. That showed a lot of strength.


Thank you, clipclop. I'll keep my eyes open.


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## soulpotato

*Re: Unique Thread*



CharlieParker said:


> Good to hear from you, sorry it's not with better news. Don't beat yourself up too much, it's called real life and it is messy.


You're too kind, CP. Thank you. I'm trying not to make a bigger mess in life than I already have.


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## Laurel

Stopping by the reconciliation thread because it was recently the one year anniversary of the worst day of my life, aka D-Day. Looking back at where I was a year ago, and where I am today is mind-boggling. 

I found this website shortly after D-day but lurked and didn't post until a few months later. By the time I started posting, I knew I was interested in R and there were a few people here who gave immense encouragement and support and kept me hopeful that it was a possibility. And to them (many of whom post in this thread) I am so thankful. There wasn't really anyone I could talk to in real life about what I was going through, so I was relying on the kindness and wisdom of strangers on a message board. 

Working through the terrible aftermath of infidelity is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Sadly, the discovery of my H's infidelity was the catalyst to finally addressing our issues and fixing our marriage, as f-ed up as that is. We both wish we could have come to this epiphany without the near destruction of our marriage. But we didn't, and we cannot change the past. 

Our old marriage, with its poor boundaries and resentments, is dead. Our new marriage is so different, and so much more fulfilling. 

This experience has truly taught me that you never know what you will do until the situation happens to you (I was always very vocal about never forgiving a cheater). And that you never know what life will throw your way. And that sometimes something that seems like the end can be a new beginning.


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## daisygirl 41

Ok so I've been plucking up the courage to post for about 3 weeks so here goes....
Hubby and I are talking..... Talking about us and our marriage, the past and the future.... We are just talking......but you know, despite everything we have been through, there is still love there on both sides....I'm not saying we are getting back together......and I can see all the face palming going on, but, there you go.

I have always believed that he has been experiencing some kind of MLC, if you look back at my very first posts, I was convinced of this....he is now showing very postivie signs that he is coming out of it.....but it's very early days. 

Please be respectful, as I'm sure you will, I only feel safe talking to you lot here about this, and I really don't need an ear bashing about it.

Thanks x


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## Headspin

daisygirl 41 said:


> Ok so I've been plucking up the courage to post for about 3 weeks so here goes....
> Hubby and I are talking..... Talking about us and our marriage, the past and the future.... We are just talking......but you know, despite everything we have been through, there is still love there on both sides....I'm not saying we are getting back together......and I can see all the face palming going on, but, there you go.
> 
> I have always believed that he has been experiencing some kind of MLC, if you look back at my very first posts, I was convinced of this....he is now showing very postivie signs that he is coming out of it.....but it's very early days.
> 
> Please be respectful, as I'm sure you will, I only feel safe talking to you lot here about this, and I really don't need an ear bashing about it.
> 
> Thanks x


Trying to recall here - first dday over 3 yrs ago and 2nd 2 1/2 yrs ago and rubbing your face it in throughout with OW. 

I'll not pop off at you Daisy as you have to do what you think is right and are comfortable with. I think you know what most of us think but good luck to you


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## clipclop2

Why are you doing this? Seriously. You like being hurt? You like being used? You like being lied to and jerked around? There is love? Not from his side darling. That's your fantasy and he isn't going to let a chance of using that against you slip by... And why should he? You allow it.

I'm sorry but I have to say I do not support this foolish idea. Your life...

Clipclop out.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



daisygirl 41 said:


> Ok so I've been plucking up the courage to post for about 3 weeks so here goes....
> Hubby and I are talking..... Talking about us and our marriage, the past and the future.... We are just talking......but you know, despite everything we have been through, there is still love there on both sides....I'm not saying we are getting back together......and I can see all the face palming going on, but, there you go.
> 
> I have always believed that he has been experiencing some kind of MLC, if you look back at my very first posts, I was convinced of this....he is now showing very postivie signs that he is coming out of it.....but it's very early days.
> 
> Please be respectful, as I'm sure you will, I only feel safe talking to you lot here about this, and I really don't need an ear bashing about it.
> 
> Thanks x


Has he quit his job working with the OW? If not then I don't see what there is to talk about. Talk should come after significant actions are taken.


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## pidge70

Daisy I wish you the best, but the whole MLC thing, I don't buy it. It's just an excuse people use as they age to excuse poor, selfish behavior.


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## soulpotato

daisygirl 41 said:


> Ok so I've been plucking up the courage to post for about 3 weeks so here goes....
> Hubby and I are talking..... Talking about us and our marriage, the past and the future.... We are just talking......but you know, despite everything we have been through, there is still love there on both sides....I'm not saying we are getting back together......and I can see all the face palming going on, but, there you go.


DG, I think you should do whatever you need to do (just make sure you give him some hell, lol). You're the only one in your situation, with your feelings, thoughts, and experiences. If it's enough to feel those things with him, and you really want that, then go for it. You already know the risks. But sometimes you've just got to keep going around with someone until they're well and truly out of your blood (or something else happens), no matter how strange or crazy it seems to other people.


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## calvin

I'm sorry Dg but if this would have been how CSS went about our R.....
there would be no R.
Its what she does and shows me on a daily basis (not kissing my ass )
that has earned so much trust and faith in her again.
I hope things go good for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daisygirl 41

I really don't expect any of you to understand or get it . I'm not being used or taken advantage of. That would imply that I am a weak person who doesn't know my own mind or what I want. I'm far from it and I am ready to walk away and stop any contact tomorrow. I'm not a mug. I know what I'm doing. I'm not blinded by some idealistic fairy tale ending because there never is one. 
He's looking for another job, we have scheduled MC, we talk and have agreed that Thursday night will be our date night. I am not moving back home and we are just taking it a day at a time. I've spoken to the ex OW. He's finished it and I've seen her begging txt messages to him. I have no expectations and he is well aware that he is not just walking back into my life.
I've told him, if he wants her, then go. I'm not going to stop him, because I know, I won't be on my own, I don't need him like I used to. 
If there's going to be any kind of relationship it's going to be a new one, it's got to go right back to basics. But I haven't even decided if I want it or not yet and he knows that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

soulpotato said:


> DG, I think you should do whatever you need to do (just make sure you give him some hell, lol). You're the only one in your situation, with your feelings, thoughts, and experiences. If it's enough to feel those things with him, and you really want that, then go for it. You already know the risks. But sometimes you've just got to keep going around with someone until they're well and truly out of your blood (or something else happens), no matter how strange or crazy it seems to other people.


Thx x
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

DG, my wife and I have prayed many a night for things to work out between you and your husband. We've asked God to give you the strength to make the best decision for yourself. You are still on our prayer list and will remain there. Please make sure that his actions back up his words. You are a special person and do not deserve the pain you have endured.


----------



## Headspin

daisygirl 41 said:


> I really don't expect any of you to understand or get it . I'm not being used or taken advantage of. That would imply that I am a weak person who doesn't know my own mind or what I want. I'm far from it and I am ready to walk away and stop any contact tomorrow. I'm not a mug. I know what I'm doing. I'm not blinded by some idealistic fairy tale ending because there never is one.
> He's looking for another job, we have scheduled MC, we talk and have agreed that Thursday night will be our date night. I am not moving back home and we are just taking it a day at a time. I've spoken to the ex OW. He's finished it and I've seen her begging txt messages to him. I have no expectations and he is well aware that he is not just walking back into my life.
> I've told him, if he wants her, then go. I'm not going to stop him, because I know, I won't be on my own, I don't need him like I used to.
> If there's going to be any kind of relationship it's going to be a new one, it's got to go right back to basics. But I haven't even decided if I want it or not yet and he knows that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think we do 'get it' Daisy - which is why we don't want to see you get hurt. I think it's rare that somebody who has taken as much stuff as you (I've done the same and it was never going to work) can make a recon work. Sometimes too much water has gone under the bridge.

For what it's worth of course you're right it has to be a rebuild from the ground up and yes it sounds like you have the headlights full on now rather than dimmed and you'll be able to see anything that's wrong quickly. Good luck with it


----------



## BrokenVows

Daisy, you are the only one who knows what's best for you. You will get negative feedback from people who say "it's rare that somebody who has taken as much stuff as you... can make recon work" I too don't want to see you get hurt but reconciliation IS possible, I'm living proof. I've been through some "stuff" but I believe in second chances. This thread is entitled reconciliation, right? I sincerely wish you the best! PM me any time if you want to talk.


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## clipclop2

What does her husband do when the going gets rough? He has broken up with the OW before. Unless she decides NEVER AGAIN he will run to her whenever things get difficult. It is what he does and how he is built. 

So OW keeps taking him back and DG keeps taking him back. He can manage his little walk the walk for only so long. Pleading text messages? Why does he still have a phone she can text him on?

I would like to suggest there are times when a person is too close to know best. 

Walking into this again is plainly and simply foolish. DG would be mortified if this were her daughter's decision. Is that not so?


----------



## Headspin

BrokenVows said:


> Daisy, you are the only one who knows what's best for you. You will get negative feedback from people who say "it's rare that somebody who has taken as much stuff as you... can make recon work" I too don't want to see you get hurt but reconciliation IS possible, I'm living proof. I've been through some "stuff" but I believe in second chances. This thread is entitled reconciliation, right? I sincerely wish you the best! PM me any time if you want to talk.


It's actually not negative feedback 

Do you believe in 3rd and 4th chances then? which is what she's doing and what I did and it IS of course rare that any recon worked out under that kind of pressure. I'm giving it straight here - dead straight 

I'd love to hear nothing better in 18 months time that it was all genuinely hunky dory 

......History however tells me different.

I haven't read all this thread which deals specifically with recon but I'm making an assumption here that the greater the betrayal, the more severe, the number of times, the length and so on = less chance of a proper successful reconciliation because it would have brought to the table more trickle truthing re writing gaslighting blame shifting etc etc.

Would that be the case. I assume so.

Anyway good luck to her, she deserves at least that


----------



## soulpotato

Planning to see DS on Saturday. I'm sure we'll go out to lunch, maybe watch a movie together. I feel a little nervous about it, for some reason. I'm not even sure if I'm properly processing the feelings. When I went to take care of her birds (she's away) the other night, it was...sad. I had a knot in my stomach as I looked around and thought, "I don't have a place here anymore." I was at a friend's place, not my partner's place. 

We haven't done the whole reclaiming-of-belongings thing. Actually, I don't think I have anything of hers, I think she's just borrowing some things from me at this point.

I've thought half-heartedly about dating, or at least meeting new people who might become possibilities. But...I don't know. I think I'm still suspended in my feelings due to how things are with DS.


----------



## Acoa

SP, be careful dating too soon. There is definitely a healing aspect in that you get an ego boost by feeling desired. Just don't jump into anything long term. 

I chatted with a few women online (I made sure they lived far away). Had some chemistry which led to some dirty talking and phone sex plus a standing invite to her place if I ever visit her area. It was a much needed ego boost and really felt good. But it was too much too soon. We remain friends and talk every so often about the kids or the divorce (she is in a heated custody battle). 

But be careful. During the heat of it all, there was temptation to run away from my life and spend time with her. Which of course would be a completely insane and stupid. But when you are missing that deep connection with someone, you won't want to let it go when you find it. So, keep your wits about you. 

Another interesting side effect was it gave me more empathy to what my STBX struggles with. I understand how powerful a mood booster that new spark can feel when you are depressed. The difference is I am strong enough to set a boundary and enforce it and she is weak and couldn't hold a boundary to save her life.


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## clipclop2

Then you haven't broken up... Hanging on is another form of bargaining. I'm concerned for you. What happened to the six month check in?

If you are breaking up, break up. If you are not then work on the relationship. You will hold yourself back from healing and growth if you try to have it both ways.

You want to be healthier and happier. Unless you give yourself a chance to have distance and if you are fixated on her as being your path toward happiness you will never grow.

She is not the only fish in the ocean!!! She is just the one you know. But she has also told you she cannot give you what you need. If wishes were fishes you'd be golden. But they are not.

She doesn't cease to exist because you break up. She may decide she wants to give you what you need but only by not having you there will she understand what she has lost. Move on and keep with the six month check in. But go no contact in between. Find out what it will be like. If not the six month clock has to be pushed back.


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## soulpotato

Acoa, I hear you. Thank you for the warning. I know I'm only capable of lighter things right now - not forming a real relationship. I actually have someone far away who's quite willing to meet my needs (as much as one can from a distance), so I've taken her up on that. I'm just trying to relax right now, go with the flow, and stop stressing about things I have no control over. Trying to just live in the moment and enjoy what I can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Clipclop, we really aren't together. Sat there in front of the therapist and laid it all out. DS and I are free to date and/or sleep with other people. The therapist left it up to us to modulate communication - totally dark or occasionally texting or seeing each other? So I left it up to DS (lol) which program we'd be on, and it seems she doesn't want to go dark. That's okay; I'm still going to do my own thing, as she'll be doing hers. I know the likelihood of her getting to the point where she can meet my basic needs is quite low. So we'll have a conversation later down the line (this is the 6 month "check") about it to see how we both feel about viability, etc. But I can't freeze in place anymore for hopes and wishes. Things have been stuck for too long. Maybe we really aren't right as romantic partners. I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41

You're a tough crowd, but that's fine
I know you are only looking out for me and I appreciate it.
I don't really know what to say at this point in time, I'm just seeing how it goes to be honest. Doing my own thing, but spending some time with him also. I'm not in any rush. I'm not even 100% sure I want it! but that's ok and he knows that. So much has gone on in the last 3 years, we both need tom end space to work through it all.


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## soulpotato

Sadly, my experiences over the years (especially the last few) have made me MORE afraid to commit, not less. If I end up with someone other than DS, I cannot even imagine what kind of hybrid relationship I would feel comfortable accepting. I'm really not sure if I could live with another traditional relationship (maybe I'll just casually date forever). The very idea makes me feel panicked. (Can't trust, won't be safe, no one will care about my needs or my happiness once I'm pinned down.) I've worked very hard to break down my old coping methods and protections, but it feels like my relationship with DS was just reinforcing why the old ways were "better"/much more supportive of survival. I can't stand that feeling of helplessness and being backed into the corner or in some kind of emotional chokehold ("No, I'm not going to meet your needs and you're just going to have to suffer OR completely abandon everything!"). No. Just...NO. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> Clipclop, we really aren't together. Sat there in front of the therapist and laid it all out. DS and I are free to date and/or sleep with other people. The therapist left it up to us to modulate communication - totally dark or occasionally texting or seeing each other? So I left it up to DS (lol) which program we'd be on, and it seems she doesn't want to go dark. That's okay; I'm still going to do my own thing, as she'll be doing hers. I know the likelihood of her getting to the point where she can meet my basic needs is quite low. So we'll have a conversation later down the line (this is the 6 month "check") about it to see how we both feel about viability, etc. But I can't freeze in place anymore for hopes and wishes. Things have been stuck for too long. Maybe we really aren't right as romantic partners. I don't know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just hope DS doesn't eventually take advantage of the friendship to have you meet her needs while yours continue to go unmet. I glad your taking sometime for yourself. I have faith that you'll one day meet someone who will be happy to meet your needs and that you can lower your walls with.


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## clipclop2

OK DG. i'm cool with it if you promise to date other men at the same time.


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## clipclop2

SP, when you can trust yourself you will be able to better trust others. Give yourself more time. Before her you had relationships right? Others will arise. Just don't settle. And dont cop out because you are afraid. You can do this!


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## soulpotato

clipclop2 said:


> She is not the only fish in the ocean!!! She is just the one you know. But she has also told you she cannot give you what you need. If wishes were fishes you'd be golden. But they are not.


On the plenty of fish out there bit...yeah, that's true, but very few fish are of interest to me. It's very rare for me to really love someone and become strongly attached, so I'm quite loath to let go when I find one of them.  But I'm finally getting it. That she really just cannot make that stretch/change.


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## soulpotato

clipclop2 said:


> SP, when you can trust yourself you will be able to better trust others. Give yourself more time. Before her you had relationships right? Others will arise. Just don't settle. And dont cop out because you are afraid. You can do this!


I only trust myself less as time goes on! I didn't settle with either of my last two serious relationships. Oh yes, I've had relationships. A lot of them didn't really matter to me, though. The fear is tough. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> I just hope DS doesn't eventually take advantage of the friendship to have you meet her needs while yours continue to go unmet. I glad your taking sometime for yourself. I have faith that you'll one day meet someone who will be happy to meet your needs and that you can lower your walls with.


I hope not, either. I think boundaries will be tough. Ehhh, I don't know, FG. Seems like a hopeless case! But we'll just keep our fingers crossed. Thanks.


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## jenn1983

Is there room for reconciliation after domestic violence has occurred. I have been separated from my husband for 6 months as the matter is in the court and it is going on trial and i am sure if i testify against him he will never take me back.

i don't even know if he wants me back. My in-laws have lied to me on many occasions that he wants to reconcile. They said this lie so that i might go to the prosecutor and help their son get out of this mess. 

I would not have called the cops has my mother-in-law whom i was staying with had stopped the violence in december. My husband has been abusive since i moved in with him after marriage. He has threatened to kill me or keep hitting me till the time i do not leave the house. He has said nasty things to me: Character assassination and calling my friends names and discriminating them for no fault of theirs. My husband has not even met my friends and has said very mean things to them just to hurt me. I went with all these problems to my mother-in-law and she did not do netting. The day i called the cops she said to me i could have waited few more hours as she was to be back from work. In my mind i was like i came to you four/five times. What would have been different this time? 

Please help me understand what to do and where to go? I do not know what my husband wants from me. Yes he has abused me but he is under lot of financial stress. I don't know i fell he married me for money and wanted me to pay his loans...i am very confused i love this guy but i think he played with my emotions...


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## Forever Grateful

soulpotato said:


> I hope not, either. I think boundaries will be tough. Ehhh, I don't know, FG. Seems like a hopeless case! But we'll just keep our fingers crossed. Thanks.


Keep up the boundaries as best you can, it could happen without either of you of you realizing it, you know old habits. Maybe a few solid weeks of space then try the friends thing? I don't know, just trying to look out. And if a fish doesn't interest you, move on and find new fish! You'll find a fish that won't want to let you go too. One that will want to make you happy. 

I kind of let the fish run away there didn't I? Now I want some seafood. :rofl: BTW I told RTBP you came back on and he says hi!


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## Forever Grateful

jenn1983 said:


> Is there room for reconciliation after domestic violence has occurred. I have been separated from my husband for 6 months as the matter is in the court and it is going on trial and i am sure if i testify against him he will never take me back.
> 
> i don't even know if he wants me back. My in-laws have lied to me on many occasions that he wants to reconcile. They said this lie so that i might go to the prosecutor and help their son get out of this mess.
> 
> I would not have called the cops has my mother-in-law whom i was staying with had stopped the violence in december. My husband has been abusive since i moved in with him after marriage. He has threatened to kill me or keep hitting me till the time i do not leave the house. He has said nasty things to me: Character assassination and calling my friends names and discriminating them for no fault of theirs. My husband has not even met my friends and has said very mean things to them just to hurt me. I went with all these problems to my mother-in-law and she did not do netting. The day i called the cops she said to me i could have waited few more hours as she was to be back from work. In my mind i was like i came to you four/five times. What would have been different this time?
> 
> Please help me understand what to do and where to go? I do not know what my husband wants from me. Yes he has abused me but he is under lot of financial stress. I don't know i fell he married me for money and wanted me to pay his loans...i am very confused i love this guy but i think he played with my emotions...


I usually believe in and hope for reconciliation in most situations. But hun, I'm sorry you need to get out of this marriage while you still can. Like run, now.


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## soulpotato

Forever Grateful said:


> Keep up the boundaries as best you can, it could happen without either of you of you realizing it, you know old habits. Maybe a few solid weeks of space then try the friends thing? I don't know, just trying to look out. And if a fish doesn't interest you, move on and find new fish! You'll find a fish that won't want to let you go too. One that will want to make you happy.
> 
> I kind of let the fish run away there didn't I? Now I want some seafood. :rofl: BTW I told RTBP you came back on and he says hi!


DS said she just starts getting very sad after we don't text for a few days. You're right that old habits die hard. 11 years of having our lives so intertwined...the nicknames, shared interests and hobbies, the information sharing - just tough to dismantle. 

LOL, stupid fish! I'm just going to scream and snap my fishing pole! Tell RTBP I said hi back!


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## Headspin

jenn1983 said:


> Is there room for reconciliation after domestic violence has occurred. I have been separated from my husband for 6 months as the matter is in the court and it is going on trial and i am sure if i testify against him he will never take me back.
> 
> i don't even know if he wants me back. My in-laws have lied to me on many occasions that he wants to reconcile. They said this lie so that i might go to the prosecutor and help their son get out of this mess.
> 
> I would not have called the cops has my mother-in-law whom i was staying with had stopped the violence in december. My husband has been abusive since i moved in with him after marriage. He has threatened to kill me or keep hitting me till the time i do not leave the house. He has said nasty things to me: Character assassination and calling my friends names and discriminating them for no fault of theirs. My husband has not even met my friends and has said very mean things to them just to hurt me. I went with all these problems to my mother-in-law and she did not do netting. The day i called the cops she said to me i could have waited few more hours as she was to be back from work. In my mind i was like i came to you four/five times. What would have been different this time?
> 
> Please help me understand what to do and where to go? I do not know what my husband wants from me. Yes he has abused me but he is under lot of financial stress. I don't know i fell he married me for money and wanted me to pay his loans...i am very confused i love this guy but i think he played with my emotions...


Incredible how life even in infidelity can throw others experiences that bring unique things to the coping with infidelity table!

We see abuse on here all the time - committing adultery is an abusive act it's part of every scenario in this forum. It is however emotional.

BUT I cannot for a millisecond get my head around accepting any physical abuse as part of an ongoing relationship under any circumstances

Rare but I'm stumped in respect of advice for you - to think of remaining with someone who physically abuses you is just beyond my scope of acceptance

I actually think long term emotional abuse is as bad if not worse than physical but the lack of respect a human being needs to physically look someone in the eye whilst they beat them is simply heinous and beneath contempt

I can only hope you come to value yourself more than you do to accept being someone's punch bag.

Reconcile !%+!\* Good luck, and I mean it it.


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## Mr Blunt

*



i am sure if i testify against him he will never take me back.

Click to expand...

**Testify against him so that he will not take you back. You may be too weak to make a break with him on your own.*

*



My husband has been abusive since i moved in with him after marriage. He has threatened to kill me

Click to expand...

**You are not one of those women that are completely blind to the signs that he has given you, are you?*





*



Please help me understand what to do and where to go
...i am very confused i love this guy but i think he played with my emotions...

Click to expand...

*What you do is make sure that you make a complete break from this dangerous man. *Where you go is away from him and safe and concentrate on ONLY YOU!!!!! * You are so emotionally desperate that you will allow a man to abuse you since marriage. Force yourself to see reality and get as much help as you can for your weaknesses. Your life may depend on it!

NONE of his abuse has anything to do with your value as a woman. He does not value you except when it will benefit him. You are a very valuable woman but you do not know that yet. *GET HELP FOR YOUR WEAKNESSES!! You are WORTHY and can have a MUCH better life if you take the right actions!*


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## harrybrown

I am confused. I thought my wife and I were doing better.

As I mentioned in another post, when I told her I was leaving, she told me that she was coming with me.

So we have a nephew and his family visit. (her sister's son) She was visiting with her nephew.

I see her cell and decide to look at the text messages. From one on July 15, about the time she would leave for work, she has a text message to her work. She can't talk right now, please call her later. That text message is confusing to me. It is to her general work number. So I ask her about the text message on her phone. I wanted to know who was the person that was supposed to get this text message. Who was supposed to call her later? So she gets upset at me, she doesn't know anything about the text message, she never sent it, she does not know how it got on her phone. 

I did wait until the visitor's left before asking questions. We have just finished celebrating our 40th anniversary this summer. I thought things were better, but this sets me back. 

Cell phones do not have the ability to create messages without help. And I do not think that someone else created that message. It was sent about the time she would be leaving for work, unless she was called in to work early. Or she could have been driving to work, but she should not be texting and driving. Her response just does not sit well with me. 

Maybe I should just let it go, but her answer does not make sense. But my trust level went back down again. 

Still on the roller coaster.


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## clipclop2

She is lying and you know it. Dont bust your brain trying to figure out the circumstances. She hasn't changed. She proved it.

And if you let it go you had better let her go as well.

It makes me ill reading the words "Maybe I should just let it go.". Are you a man or a mouse? Really! Look, i'm going to be completely blunt. Those words are the thing that cost you your marriage in the first place. There is nothing to respect. And if you do not deserve the truth and you do not demand if why do you think she thinks it is OK to lie? You taught her how to treat you.


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## calvin

What does your gut tell you Harry?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat

harrybrown said:


> Maybe I should just let it go, but her answer does not make sense. But my trust level went back down again.
> 
> *Still on the roller coaster.*


This is why you don't let it go. Not only a lie, but a really lame one.


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## soulpotato

I guess DS' previous refusal to say she was in love with me and her response of, "What's the difference between love/in-love?!" was her version of the ILYBNILWY.

I don't know why she asked me not to give up on her. 

I've been reading a lot of articles on love and romance, and on how to choose a good partner. When I came across one about falling out of love, it reminded me of all that with DS, and I just started crying. It's funny how it's so sudden like that.


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## Forever Grateful

So RTBP has been getting tired of going to MC. I've had to pretty much talk him into going for a little bit now. He says it's not the counselor he has the problem with or anything, he is just tired of talking about it. Which is part of the reason he's stayed off TAM for so long. We use to go every other week now where down to once a month and I suggested we go down to every other month but he just wants to stop period. But when we don't talk he holds things in that never works out. I was hoping we could continue with MC into the winter and the anniversary dates but that seems unlikely now.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Forever Grateful said:


> So RTBP has been getting tired of going to MC. I've had to pretty much talk him into going for a little bit now. He says it's not the counselor he has the problem with or anything, he is just tired of talking about it. Which is part of the reason he's stayed off TAM for so long. We use to go every other week now where down to once a month and I suggested we go down to every other month but he just wants to stop period. But when we don't talk he holds things in that never works out. I was hoping we could continue with MC into the winter and the anniversary dates but that seems unlikely now.


How is he acting toward you? Is he affectionate, loving or does he seem detached? Maybe he just needs a break? Talking about something ad nauseam is very draining emotionally. Is it possible to agree on a 3 month hiatus from MC?


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## Forever Grateful

bfree said:


> How is he acting toward you? Is he affectionate, loving or does he seem detached? Maybe he just needs a break? Talking about something ad nauseam is very draining emotionally. Is it possible to agree on a 3 month hiatus from MC?


For the most part he's been very affectionate and loving. He even surprised me recently at work with lunch, he hasn't done that in a while. With the exception of some issues with his family he's been pretty happy this summer. I understand it can be draining which is why we cut back on it from every other week. He'll rarely discuss it with me otherwise. The most I'll get out of him is a 'I'm fine' or 'Ok' and then he gets annoyed if I try to get him to elaborate. Our counselor would be able to coax actual answers out of him, then we'll have a productive session and then we'll talk about it more at home. I'll ask him tomorrow how he'll feel about trying MC out again after 3 months.


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## soulpotato

DS called me yesterday out of the blue. She hadn't called me since the split. And then she texted me that she found something that I had long been looking for - she went ahead and bought it for me. She was so excited.  We talked on the phone for a while. We also decided to meet for lunch and hang out after my therapy on Saturday.

I'm still wearing my ring on a chain around my neck. Though I "should" take it off, I don't want to. It distresses me to even try. So I'll just keep wearing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias

My closest colleague passed away last night from cancer. I've been asked to direct a volunteer choir for the funeral of friends and former students. I know at least 1 NC individual wants to participate. She was a toxic friend. She was respectful enough to ask an intermediary if that would be possible. It is also possible, although I think, unlikely, that the OM could show up for the choir. I think it is more likely we will encounter him at the funeral. 

I had planned to mention to common acquaintances that it would be best if they didn't come to sing. I was trying to be proactive. At the same time, I feel terrible standing in the way of someone paying their respects to a woman that was highly influential to them.

Matt has said it is ok to let TF sing, but I worry about the stress on him when he sees her. He has also said that he doesn't know how he will react to OM if he is at the funeral. He has already researched how long he might go to jail for assault. I would never ask him not to do something, but I certainly don't want him to go to jail. 

I suggested maybe my best choice would be to step down as director and then no one would be barred from participating in the funeral for my terrible choices. Matt doesn't want me to do that.

I feel so awful that my own hurtful decisions continues to plague so many people after all this time. 

What do you think is best? I know that No Contact means No Contact, and as I said before, my initial instinct was to make sure they knew it wasn't a good idea. I don't feel anything except additional pain and stress at the potential encounter. Has anyone had to deal with something like this before?


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## bfree

Mrs M, if this is a volunteer choir do you necessarily have to volunteer to do it?


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## harrybrown

I do not think that it is a good idea for your H to even consider going to jail.

I would hope he would think about your children. Your H is still in so much pain, have you talked to your counselor to talk to him?

The OM is not worth your H going to jail. It also would not look good for his profession or his work. 

I would keep a great distance from the OM and not even talk to him. Keep him far away. If he gets too close, you can always scream at him to stay away. He has done enough damage.

I do hope Matt does not go to jail. 

By the way, any time in jail is too long. He could be with his family instead. I do hope that this event will bring you two closer together. 

We never know how long we have here. My uncle was killed by a drunk driver. He (the drunk driver) got off and then killed a mother when he was driving drunk again. 

Make some good memories, instead of jail time.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



soulpotato said:


> DS called me yesterday out of the blue. She hadn't called me since the split. And then she texted me that she found something that I had long been looking for - she went ahead and bought it for me. She was so excited.  We talked on the phone for a while. We also decided to meet for lunch and hang out after my therapy on Saturday.
> 
> I'm still wearing my ring on a chain around my neck. Though I "should" take it off, I don't want to. It distresses me to even try. So I'll just keep wearing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's obvious she's still thinking of you. That's certainly nice to see. But you both have work to do individually and apart to become strong separately before you can resume being an even stronger couple. Still in my prayers, both you and DS.


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## Mrs_Mathias

bfree said:


> Mrs M, if this is a volunteer choir do you necessarily have to volunteer to do it?


It is volunteer for the participants. I was asked to lead it by the friend of the family who is coordinating the funeral arrangements. I assume, in part because of my relationship with my colleague and her children, as well as my position as choral director at the school and association with most of the individuals who would be returning to sing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It is volunteer for the participants. I was asked to lead it by the friend of the family who is coordinating the funeral arrangements. I assume, in part because of my relationship with my colleague and her children, as well as my position as choral director at the school and association with most of the individuals who would be returning to sing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, in my humble opinion this is one of those times when you need to think about and make the decision independent of what Matt says or thinks. I personally feel it is a VERY bad idea for you to be involved in any capacity regardless of how close you were to your colleague. Consider it yet another example of the damage infidelity reeks on everyone.

Ponder this for a moment. Matt tells you to direct this volunteer choir. You do so knowing that it is a bad idea but you rationalize that if he is ok with it then you should do it. But the real reason is that you don't personally want to look bad. You may not admit it, even to yourself, but that is the reason. So you are on stage (or wherever) directing this choir. Matt is in the audience and the OM walks in. Matt sees him and loses it. BTW, I would lose it too were I him. They began shouting and fighting as you helplessly watch from the distance. 

Don't rationalize that this couldn't ever happen or that Matt would be disappointed if you stepped aside from this unnecessary responsibility. Stop asking Matt what you should or shouldn't do. Quit using him as an excuse or a crutch. You KNOW what the right thing is. Do it.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

bfree said:


> Well, in my humble opinion this is one of those times when you need to think about and make the decision independent of what Matt says or thinks. I personally feel it is a VERY bad idea for you to be involved in any capacity regardless of how close you were to your colleague. Consider it yet another example of the damage infidelity reeks on everyone.
> 
> Ponder this for a moment. Matt tells you to direct this volunteer choir. You do so knowing that it is a bad idea but you rationalize that if he is ok with it then you should do it. But the real reason is that you don't personally want to look bad. You may not admit it, even to yourself, but that is the reason. So you are on stage (or wherever) directing this choir. Matt is in the audience and the OM walks in. Matt sees him and loses it. BTW, I would lose it too were I him. They began shouting and fighting as you helplessly watch from the distance.
> 
> Don't rationalize that this couldn't ever happen or that Matt would be disappointed if you stepped aside from this unnecessary responsibility. Stop asking Matt what you should or shouldn't do. Quit using him as an excuse or a crutch. You KNOW what the right thing is. Do it.



I never asked Matt what to do in this situation and have been very clear that it is not his responsibility to decide. I told him what my plan originally was, and he responded with his thoughts. I don't think I have written ANYTHING above that indicates I am using him as an "excuse or a crutch".

I'm very aware that he and OM could have an altercation in front of everyone. That can happen even if I'm not directing. I have asked our counselor his opinion and am waiting to hear back. I thought I'd ask here as well. I was mostly wondering if anyone had dealt with a similar situation where they encountered someone at a public function.

Honestly, I'm sorry I asked. Every encounter that I have had here recently reinforces why I try to stay away. I'm truly sorry, bfree, if you really believe that I was trying to put this on Matt. I guess personal growth and change can't be seen on a computer screen, and apparently, my writing doesn't reflect my actions very well, based on your response.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I never asked Matt what to do in this situation and have been very clear that it is not his responsibility to decide. I told him what my plan originally was, and he responded with his thoughts. I don't think I have written ANYTHING above that indicates I am using him as an "excuse or a crutch".
> 
> I'm very aware that he and OM could have an altercation in front of everyone. That can happen even if I'm not directing. I have asked our counselor his opinion and am waiting to hear back. I thought I'd ask here as well. I was mostly wondering if anyone had dealt with a similar situation where they encountered someone at a public function.
> 
> Honestly, I'm sorry I asked. Every encounter that I have had here recently reinforces why I try to stay away. I'm truly sorry, bfree, if you really believe that I was trying to put this on Matt. I guess personal growth and change can't be seen on a computer screen, and apparently, my writing doesn't reflect my actions very well, based on your response.


And if there is an altercation shouldn't you be standing next to your spouse, the one you love? Maybe slap the OM across the face thereby saving Matt from an assault charge and showing him that you are loyal only to him and nobody else. I guess I'm wondering what the question is. Of course you should not direct the choir. At least not if you care about Matt's feelings.


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## biola

Mrs Mathias,please don't leave.I think you and Matt can come to some sought of compromise.For instance,you could direct the choir without the aid of you've decided to go NC.I believe you and matt should attend the funeral together but make you find out who will be attending.My 0.02cents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## biola

Mrs Mathias,please don't leave.I think you and Matt can come to some sought of compromise.For instance,you could direct the choir without the aid of those you've decided to go NC.I believe you and matt should attend the funeral together but make you find out who will be attending.My 0.02cents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 1812overture

Mrs_Mathias said:


> What do you think is best? I know that No Contact means No Contact, and as I said before, my initial instinct was to make sure they knew it wasn't a good idea. I don't feel anything except additional pain and stress at the potential encounter. Has anyone had to deal with something like this before?


I am not coping with infidelity; I'm a married man who can't get laid. But since no one is jumping to say they have had to deal with something like this before, I'll offer what I think is best. ONLY because I know you are really struggling, AND a _suggestion_ on how to handle this situation seems to be what you have requested.

This is a close colleague, and you deserve a chance to say goodbye. You have been asked by a friend of this colleague (who is also a friend of yours?) to direct the choir (and whatever all comes with it) and that may put you uncomfortably close to at least two people who you and your spouse don't want to see. How about this -- you can't actually direct the choir, but you know someone who can, you suggest that person and you have time to help that person out. You can arrange for a quick practice, reserve whatever room and/or performance space is needed. You can handle to logistics -- everything that doesn't require you to, possibly, end up in contact with one of these two people. 
(I'm assuming it's not your skills the choir needs. They were requesting your presence, for you and for the deceased's family. This is an attempt to split the difference, for you and for them).
I think, then, the funeral is separate -- unless the choir sings at the funeral, which maybe is the case, maybe not. Show up late, leave early. Find a way to personally send your condolences away from the funeral crowd. 
If there is a person you can trust (maybe the intermediary who already relayed info from TF) perhaps you ask that person to tell TF and OM to stay far away from you. You and your husband look at and listen to the speakers at the funeral, nothing else. Then get out of there. 
I think you have a right to grieve for your colleague, but you don't want to (and ought not) let it harm your marriage. 
That's what I "think is best."


----------



## clipclop2

I can't believe this isn't a no brainer. Choose Matt. Period.

That there is even a question has to bug him.


----------



## Turin74

Mrs. M, 
I'd suggest (based on your original question) :
a) don't go
b) ensure your husband doesn't go there alone. 

Hth


----------



## larry.gray

Turin74 said:


> Mrs. M,
> I'd suggest (based on your original question) :
> a) don't go
> b) ensure your husband doesn't go there alone.
> 
> Hth


:iagree:

Yep, it sucks. But pay your respects separately.


----------



## soulpotato

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm very aware that he and OM could have an altercation in front of everyone. That can happen even if I'm not directing. I have asked our counselor his opinion and am waiting to hear back. I thought I'd ask here as well. I was mostly wondering if anyone had dealt with a similar situation where they encountered someone at a public function.


Mrs M, my vote is total avoidance. Barring that option, I vote that you not actually direct the choir. That way you will be able to mitigate any situations that might occur and not be too far away to step in and do something. I think it was a good move, asking the counselor's opinion. 

The funeral is trickier. Maybe you could tell the family that you will not be able to attend? Otherwise, the only suggestion I can think of is what 1812 said, about arriving late and leaving early. 



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Honestly, I'm sorry I asked. Every encounter that I have had here recently reinforces why I try to stay away. I'm truly sorry, bfree, if you really believe that I was trying to put this on Matt. I guess personal growth and change can't be seen on a computer screen, and apparently, my writing doesn't reflect my actions very well, based on your response.


 Mrs M, I think you have done really well working on R with Matt. You are strong and brave, and have taken more than a few beatings here and have still stood your ground and returned. I have great respect for you, and admiration as well. Please don't go, or at least, make it just taking a break and not farewell. 

I think TAM is a very harsh place for former waywards, no matter how remorseful. You have worked so hard, and I know I am not alone in believing in the growth and change you have undergone.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> It's obvious she's still thinking of you. That's certainly nice to see. But you both have work to do individually and apart to become strong separately before you can resume being an even stronger couple. Still in my prayers, both you and DS.


Yes, it makes me happy. But I know that we both still have a lot of work to do, and it will be a while before we even know if we can try to be a couple again. Thank you, bfree.


----------



## jim123

Mrs. M.

Do it and make sure Matt is there too. You can not let this run your life forever. You both need to get past this.

If OM shows, stand by Matt at all costs. My guess he will not. 

Do not let the A win again.


----------



## larry.gray

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Honestly, I'm sorry I asked. Every encounter that I have had here recently reinforces why I try to stay away. I'm truly sorry, bfree, if you really believe that I was trying to put this on Matt. I guess personal growth and change can't be seen on a computer screen, and apparently, my writing doesn't reflect my actions very well, based on your response.


I'm going to go against the grain here.... and if people get pissed at me, oh well.

Do you know why the way you come off here isn't perceived as contrite and remorseful? Because you post things like the first sentence. 

I get TAM can be a very brutal place to a wayward spouse. The simplest explanation is that there are plenty of betrayed spouses here with un-remorseful and / or personality disordered waywards. Lashing out at their own WS does nothing, so they hit ones here that are. It's not right, and TAM needs to be a welcoming place. 

But that's not what this is. Bfree didn't even get remotely there. He offered an *honest* assessment of where Matt's mind may be. Bfree and I are both saying that if you were even remotely suggesting to break NC with a toxic friend or even worse, the risk that the OM would show up would be very hurtful. Hurt that would be there but Matt would be hesitant to express because of the circumstances. Only you don't want to hear it. 

TAM can be a great place, but only if you listen to it.


----------



## bfree

Exactly Larry. Sometimes the fWS's job is to look out for and protect the BS. In this case Matt is not going to tell her not participate. He's not going to say how hurtful it's going to be if she breaks NC. But he did mention punching the OM and looked up the jail time it might result in. If that's not giving her a warning I don't know what is. She needs to stay far away from this situation and protect herself, her marriage and Matt from potential harm. It should not even be a question.


----------



## margrace

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I never asked Matt what to do in this situation ... I'm very aware that he and OM could have an altercation in front of everyone. That can happen even if I'm not directing. I have asked our counselor his opinion and am waiting to hear back. I thought I'd ask here as well. I was mostly wondering if anyone had dealt with a similar situation where they encountered someone at a public function.
> 
> Honestly, I'm sorry I asked. Every encounter that I have had here recently reinforces why I try to stay away. I'm truly sorry, bfree, if you really believe that I was trying to put this on Matt. I guess personal growth and change can't be seen on a computer screen, and apparently, my writing doesn't reflect my actions very well, based on your response.


Hi, Mrs. M -- I agree with several of the points that you and others have made:

I have always believed in the personal growth work that you have done. No question.
and
I agree 100% that TAM is harsh for sincere, remorseful fWSs, and that they often get slammed unfairly because so many posters are displacing the legitimate anger that they feel toward their own shifty and unremorseful WSs.
and
I honestly don't think that is happening to you right here, right now.
and 
I don't think that you should knowingly go anywhere that OM is likely to be. An alternative plan, even with its limitations, should be chosen. As a BS, anything else would crush me.

My two cents added to the rest. XXX mg


----------



## soulpotato

larry.gray said:


> I'm going to go against the grain here.... and if people get pissed at me, oh well.
> 
> Do you know why the way you come off here isn't perceived as contrite and remorseful? Because you post things like the first sentence.


Thing is, she's human. She's not applying for sainthood. She can be contrite and remorseful and still have things upset her or p1ss her off. Even throw some rants out there. I know it happens to me, especially when I'm mired in other messy feelings. Bfree is trying to help, as he always does, yet something he said obviously hurt/upset Mrs M. I would guess that she's reading an implication there (and in some other posts) that she isn't protecting Matt and isn't doing enough for R. It has probably become a pretty big trigger for her by now.

She came here asking for advice. In a perfect TAM world, she would get the advice without all the other stuff. And maybe some encouragement and support, because human beings definitely need that.



larry.gray said:


> I get TAM can be a very brutal place to a wayward spouse. The simplest explanation is that there are plenty of betrayed spouses here with un-remorseful and / or personality disordered waywards. Lashing out at their own WS does nothing, so they hit ones here that are. It's not right, and TAM needs to be a welcoming place.


:iagree: (And I do hate all the PD-people bashing that goes on here.) Some people seem to think that it's fine that TAM is a brutal place, but I think it defeats the purpose. A lot more people would be helped by a more welcoming TAM.



larry.gray said:


> But that's not what this is. Bfree didn't even get remotely there. He offered an *honest* assessment of where Matt's mind may be. Bfree and I are both saying that if you were even remotely suggesting to break NC with a toxic friend or even worse, the risk that the OM would show up would be very hurtful. Hurt that would be there but Matt would be hesitant to express because of the circumstances. Only you don't want to hear it.
> 
> TAM can be a great place, but only if you listen to it.


I agree that breaking NC would be a very bad thing.  I think it would be very risky.

TAM can also be an awful place! And we're just internet people with opinions, sometimes totally opposing opinions, and ultimately it's her life and only she knows the whole picture. So she has to filter through what's useful and not destructive from TAM and try to find a way to apply that.


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> Exactly Larry. Sometimes the fWS's job is to look out for and protect the BS.


Always. And I think fWSs do their best to do that. (Though sometimes some of us screw that up, like yours truly.) 

I have confidence that Mrs M will choose the best path. :smthumbup:


----------



## clipclop2

That it is even a question makes me believe she is still very selfish and that R has very little hope. Matt is an option for her. And not the only option. She had blown a very big opportunity to CHOOSE HIM FIRST AND WITHOUT QUESTION. And what does she do?


----------



## russell28

bfree said:


> Exactly Larry. Sometimes the fWS's job is to look out for and protect the BS. In this case Matt is not going to tell her not participate. He's not going to say how hurtful it's going to be if she breaks NC. But he did mention punching the OM and looked up the jail time it might result in. If that's not giving her a warning I don't know what is. She needs to stay far away from this situation and protect herself, her marriage and Matt from potential harm. It should not even be a question.


He also probably sees it as a test, what will she say, what will she do... watching 'actions'. He's watching her closely, as BS' do with a spouse that betrayed them that they are trying to re-establish trust in.

BS' just want to give insight into what her BS might be feeling, what we would want and expect and hope for if we were in R with a wife in a similar situation. 

I would be so happy to hear "I'll do whatever you need me to do, you're more important than x" and that would be good..


----------



## Philat

Mrs_Mathias said:


> My closest colleague passed away last night from cancer. I've been asked to direct a volunteer choir for the funeral of friends and former students. I know at least 1 NC individual wants to participate. She was a toxic friend. She was respectful enough to ask an intermediary if that would be possible. It is also possible, although I think, unlikely, that the OM could show up for the choir. I think it is more likely we will encounter him at the funeral.
> 
> I had planned to mention to common acquaintances that it would be best if they didn't come to sing. I was trying to be proactive. At the same time, I feel terrible standing in the way of someone paying their respects to a woman that was highly influential to them.
> 
> Matt has said it is ok to let TF sing, but I worry about the stress on him when he sees her. He has also said that he doesn't know how he will react to OM if he is at the funeral. He has already researched how long he might go to jail for assault. I would never ask him not to do something, but I certainly don't want him to go to jail.
> 
> I suggested maybe my best choice would be to step down as director and then no one would be barred from participating in the funeral for my terrible choices. Matt doesn't want me to do that.
> 
> I feel so awful that my own hurtful decisions continues to plague so many people after all this time.
> 
> What do you think is best? I know that No Contact means No Contact, and as I said before, my initial instinct was to make sure they knew it wasn't a good idea. I don't feel anything except additional pain and stress at the potential encounter. Has anyone had to deal with something like this before?


Mrs_M,

I had a somewhat similar situation arise a few months after Dday. In this case it was actually my w’s AP who died. She was adamant that she did not want me to attend the funeral with her (and this guy was someone I had known). I would have gone, but she clearly did not think she could mourn properly with me there. So I didn’t go. And she spent the day with the deceased’s best friend, who became POSOM #2 in my saga. That day, with me sitting home while she grieved publicly for her lost AP, was the worst day of the whole sorry business for me (including Dday).

This was a lost opportunity for her to demonstrate publicly and clearly that she was committed to me and to our marriage. But we were not as far along in R as you and Matt are now (she still did not think her A with the deceased was wrong in any way, and the sleazy sex-filled correspondences and phone calls with POSOM #2 were still to come), and she wasn’t thinking that way. And I did not know any better yet.

I think you should direct the choir at the funeral, but only if Matt goes with you. And I think he should. And you should be as publicly demonstrative as possible, no matter who is there, that you are a committed and exclusive couple. You can still maintain NC even if OM shows up—just do not acknowledge his presence. Be very clear by your behavior that it is Matt, not OM, whose presence means something.


----------



## russell28

clipclop2 said:


> That it is even a question makes me believe she is still very selfish and that R has very little hope. Matt is an option for her. And not the only option. She had blown a very big opportunity to CHOOSE HIM FIRST AND WITHOUT QUESTION. And what does she do?


I agree.. she had a chance to say "You're more important right now than what I need" instead she chose to fight for what she needs and puts that in front of what he needs. He'll make a mental note of this and keep watching for more signs of her not understanding completely what he needs from her to feel safe.


----------



## Turin74

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*

Clipclop and Larry, 

You (with respect) probably don't fully realise how right are you. I can tell you (as a person who a: doesn't have a lot of "marriage relationship management", b: wasn't there for Mr/Mrs M story, but c: for whom information analysis is a part of daily job) that there is a lot of info in all this "crowd sourced big data" that would likely to allow Mrs M to progress towards her goal substantially (if she is wiling to digest and apply it) . I can name at least 1 direct and 1indirect action that would be effective. Not going to debate what is it, just saying it's there. Yes, on order to get to it, one may cope some negativity... and this is entirely Mrs M's call, but I think the benefit completely outweighs it. Just my 0.2.


clipclop2 said:


> That it is even a question makes me believe she is still very selfish and that R has very little hope. Matt is an option for her. And not the only option. She had blown a very big opportunity to CHOOSE HIM FIRST AND WITHOUT QUESTION. And what does she do?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Philat said:


> Mrs_M,
> 
> I had a somewhat similar situation arise a few months after Dday. In this case it was actually my w’s AP who died. She was adamant that she did not want me to attend the funeral with her (and this guy was someone I had known). I would have gone, but she clearly did not think she could mourn properly with me there. So I didn’t go. And she spent the day with the deceased’s best friend, who became POSOM #2 in my saga. That day, with me sitting home while she grieved publicly for her lost AP, was the worst day of the whole sorry business for me (including Dday).
> 
> This was a lost opportunity for her to demonstrate publicly and clearly that she was committed to me and to our marriage. But we were not as far along in R as you and Matt are now (she still did not think her A with the deceased was wrong in any way, and the sleazy sex-filled correspondences and phone calls with POSOM #2 were still to come), and she wasn’t thinking that way. And I did not know any better yet.
> 
> I think you should direct the choir at the funeral, but only if Matt goes with you. And I think he should. And you should be as publicly demonstrative as possible, no matter who is there, that you are a committed and exclusive couple. You can still maintain NC even if OM shows up—just do not acknowledge his presence. Be very clear by your behavior that it is Matt, not OM, whose presence means something.


The only problem with your suggestion is that a toxic friend who helped facilitate the affair and was not too nice to Matt would be participating in the choir. So NC with this person would be repeatedly and extensively broken. And Matt would not be there during rehearsals so he would naturally wonder how extensive and damaging this interaction would be since this person actively encouraged the infidelity.


----------



## clipclop2

I find it really surprising to anyone who has been through a similar situation only to have their wife cheat on them again d would even make such a suggestion. and that's without even taking into account matts implied threat of violence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

soulpotato said:


> Always. And I think fWSs do their best to do that. (Though sometimes some of us screw that up, like yours truly.)
> 
> I have confidence that Mrs M will choose the best path. :smthumbup:


I hope you're correct SP and you're right, I did not meant to offend Mrs M with my words. However, I do find it "surprising" that she still has difficulty recognizing what the correct path is. I can certainly understand the confusion a WS faces in the beginning with how to help heal their BS. But they've been at this for a while now and she has even enlisted the help of Steve Harley. I don't understand why it is even a question at this point as to how to proceed. I almost get the impression that she would rather "force" Matt to say no rather than take the initiative and do what is best for him from the outset. And to me that reeks of selfishness. I hearken back to B1 and EI and their reconciliation. Even though they were both extremely hurt and confused the one quality they both shared was neither one wished to hurt the other. They had empathy and I believe that is what carried them through. I recall EI taking time stamped pictures when she first went to town without B1 so as to reassure him and begin the trust rebuilding. He did not ask her to do that. She just instinctively knew what would be the right thing to do and did it. I think that is what makes them both exceptional and what has made their reconciliation the success it is. By questioning what the correct path would be here I don't see the same level of concern and it worries me that this far along in their R she doesn't instinctively know what would be the right thing to do FOR MATT. And I question if this is the reason they are still struggling so much during their reconciliation and why Matt's level of trust in her is not further along than it is.


----------



## bfree

Philat said:


> Mrs_M,
> 
> I had a somewhat similar situation arise a few months after Dday. In this case it was actually my w’s AP who died. She was adamant that she did not want me to attend the funeral with her (and this guy was someone I had known). I would have gone, but she clearly did not think she could mourn properly with me there. So I didn’t go. And she spent the day with the deceased’s best friend, who became POSOM #2 in my saga. That day, with me sitting home while she grieved publicly for her lost AP, was the worst day of the whole sorry business for me (including Dday).
> 
> This was a lost opportunity for her to demonstrate publicly and clearly that she was committed to me and to our marriage. But we were not as far along in R as you and Matt are now (she still did not think her A with the deceased was wrong in any way, and the sleazy sex-filled correspondences and phone calls with POSOM #2 were still to come), and she wasn’t thinking that way. And I did not know any better yet.
> 
> I think you should direct the choir at the funeral, but only if Matt goes with you. And I think he should. And you should be as publicly demonstrative as possible, no matter who is there, that you are a committed and exclusive couple. You can still maintain NC even if OM shows up—just do not acknowledge his presence. Be very clear by your behavior that it is Matt, not OM, whose presence means something.


You may disagree but the best course of action would have been not for her to take you with her but for her to NOT GO AT ALL.


----------



## Philat

bfree said:


> You may disagree but the best course of action would have been not for her to take you with her but for her to NOT GO AT ALL.


In retrospect yes, but neither of us were yet aware enough of what was really going on to be thinking this way. Someone died, so you go pay your respects, right?

On another note, I don't think anyone who read Mr. Mathias's posts while he was here would think there is any chance he would commit public acts of violence against OM. He is too smart for that.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



Philat said:


> In retrospect yes, but neither of us were yet aware enough of what was really going on to be thinking this way. Someone died, so you go pay your respects, right?
> 
> On another note, I don't think anyone who read Mr. Mathias's posts while he was here would think there is any chance he would commit public acts of violence against OM. He is too smart for that.


I wasn't a violent person before my ex cheated on me either. Matt is a man. Sometimes emotions get the better of us. If I recall Matt already tried to challenge him to a confrontation but the OM ran in a most cowardly manner while baiting him. Plus this OM disgracefully rubbed it in to him. He went to his house, shook his hand, even stayed there for a while, all while boffing Matt's wife. No, I believe that if Matt ever came face to face with him there would be violence.


----------



## Philat

Well, you could be right, bfree. But according to Mrs_M, Matt has not asked her to stay away from the funeral, and he has said that its OK with him if TF shows up. They are 2 years into R and apparently spinning their wheels--I think it would be good for them (Matt in particular) to make a public statement together to the effect, "Screw you TF and OM, we don't care about you one way or another, you don't affect us, we are getting on with our shared life together." Maybe this would help Matt gain some traction in R.

All I know is, this would have helped me.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Just to clarify the order of events/conversations.

1. I am asked by a friend of the family (who is handling the arrangements) to direct the choir to perform at my colleague's funeral. It would involve a rehearsal the morning of the funeral and maybe one other meeting the day before.

2. I recognize that TF and/or OM could use this as an excuse to break NC.

3. I develop a plan to make sure they know that is not appropriate and they should not participate.

4. Matt asks me who I think might show up to the funeral. I discuss the possibilities with him and explain my plan of action to prevent breach of NC.

5. Matt disagrees with my plan, doesn't feel it is "right" to prevent someone from participating.

6. I reply that then I should step down from directing to prevent breach of NC.

7. Matt disagrees and says he doesn't want me to do that either.

8. I asked for opinions here because I feel caught between two conflicting ideas. If I direct the choir, I am disrespecting Matt because of the potential issues involved. If I don't direct the choir, I am disrespecting Matt because he has expressly stated he wants me to do so. And instead of offering situations where people encountered NC individuals in a public setting, I am immediately told how awful and selfish I am yet again, and told that my R will fail because I don't love my husband, and how unfair it is for me to put this on him.

Read the above carefully. NO WHERE did I ever go to Matt and say, I don't know what to do, what do you think. No where did I say I'd really like to do this even though there may be NC people involved. NEVER did I advocate for a NC person to be allowed to participate.

I have tried in every way I can think of to put Matt first in how we approach this, and the only reason I doubted my choices at all was because of his DIRECT input.

I can't even answer a question like, "What do you want for dinner?" without having an intense internal struggle about selfishness - because what if I want chicken and Matt wants fish and he lets me have chicken and then feels upset? I am working so hard to help Matt get better, and I am falling apart more and more every day. 

I have a lot of respect for bfree, and I am crushed that he thinks I am somehow attempting to dodge my responsibility for this situation. I don't know how else to more clearly articulate what is going on here. I have been coming to TAM when I have questions or concerns, so everyone assumes that our lives are terrible and we are failing at R. I think it's actually a testament to how well we are doing that I am not here that often anymore. It could be a lot worse. 

But my individual life is terrible. My internal emotions and strength are suffering. I've been told here that it's selfish for me to feel that way. I guess it's OK for a BS to struggle without a time frame because of what's been done to them, but a WS has to "get over it". And for the record - despite how much I struggle, I make every effort to NEVER show that to my family. Every day it is my job to be the happy one, the hopeful one, the one who gets up every morning and creates the kind of positive loving marriage that Matt deserves to be part of.

So that's where I am. I don't expect to be coddled or catered to. But I want my words to be accurately read and responded to, instead of the accusations and misrepresentations that are often made when I post. And I don't say this to be snarky - but it is overwhelmingly apparent that there is not a resource for someone like me to "cope with infidelity". If I were to choose a different forum for WS only it would be interpreted, I think, as hiding from reality and the devastation I caused my family, and seeking an environment where "it's all ok" and "everyone makes mistakes". I don't want that. I don't believe those statements are true. But I do need someone somewhere to help me. For Matt, I think the process we have been using is helping, to an extent. His pain is diminishing. Mine seems to be magnifying, and I don't know what to do about that. I was not expecting that to be the case over the past few months. I told our counselor this morning that I am worried that if we do reach a point where Matt can forgive me and fully feel in love with me again that I will not be able to recognize or accept that because my inner criticisms and punishment will have become too deafening to allow outside efforts in. 

I want both Matt and I to be able to heal from this. I hope that can happen. Regardless of what you all think you see and feel here, I am trying. Every day.


----------



## LongWalk

> I can't even answer a question like, "What do you want for dinner?" without having an intense internal struggle about selfishness - because what if I want chicken and Matt wants fish and he lets me have chicken and then feels upset? I am working so hard to help Matt get better, and I am falling apart more and more every day.


Can you say to him at the end of a day that you are sad. Can you ask him for some words of kindness? Affection?

When you have sex does it relief anxiety and allow you to feel whole and one with him?

Do you think he reads your thread? Do you wish him to?


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

LongWalk said:


> Can you say to him at the end of a day that you are sad. Can you ask him for some words of kindness? Affection?
> 
> When you have sex does it relief anxiety and allow you to feel whole and one with him?
> 
> Do you think he reads your thread? Do you wish him to?


I could, but I don't. I'm not willing to put my sadness onto him. I caused it, he has enough to bear with what I did to him. He is affectionate every day. We touch, hug, kiss. This morning he asked how I was doing and spent extra time holding me in bed.

We have sex regularly, and I do feel close to him. I think a lot of my anxiety is self-inflicted. It's that voice that says, "Yeah he's being loving and kind, but he can't really mean it after what I did. He must just be trying to be nice."

No, I know he's not reading here anymore. He feels much better being away from the constant barrage of fresh betrayal that is so heart-wrenching here. He would be welcome to read anything I've written. Most of it has been communicated between us, I think, but he may not really understand the depths I feel, since I work so hard each day to prevent it from impacting my time with my family.


----------



## farsidejunky

MM:

You can't do that. You have to communicate that with him or your fear will become a self fulfilling prophecy. 

Sit him down and talk to him. He is sensitive enough to understand and mature enough to respond appropriately. It is almost as if you are treating this with kid gloves. Take them off; be transparent. You guys will be better for it.


----------



## bfree

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Just to clarify the order of events/conversations.
> 
> 1. I am asked by a friend of the family (who is handling the arrangements) to direct the choir to perform at my colleague's funeral. It would involve a rehearsal the morning of the funeral and maybe one other meeting the day before.
> 
> 2. I recognize that TF and/or OM could use this as an excuse to break NC.


Before I address the rest of this post let's stop right here. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Right here is where you make the decision to say NO! Right here is where you see that it could adversely affect you, Matt, your marriage and your family. YOU put an end to it RIGHT HERE! You tell Matt that you were asked to direct a volunteer choir but YOU don't feel right about it. If he says he thinks you should you tell him no and the decision is made. END OF STORY. By going to Matt and getting his input you passive aggressively are putting it on him to make the decision for you. This is where I see selfishness. YOU NEED TO MAKE THAT DECISION....ALONE.

NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT. PERIOD.

So before I address anything else why wasn't this done.


----------



## Lister

Mrs M,

A few months after DD I was supposed to present at a conference. I Checked-the delegate list in advance and saw that my AP had registered. I waited until the day and then told them I was sick and pulled out. No comparison, I know, with the complexity of your situation but the best I can think of. 
I agree that you should not risk contact with the AP or the TF for Matt's sake, but I understand also you wish to pay your respects to a dear colleague. Is there no one else that can take your place on the day? 
If you say you are too ill to organise the choir and attend the funeral i am sure they will understand. You and Matt could then arrange to pay your respects privately with the deceased's family at a later date when there is no danger, stress, or anxiety of a confrontation. You will be able to pay your respects as you would wish to do so.
I know this is not a perfect solution and you may feel you are letting people down but you will be putting Matt's needs first and given that it was the A that caused this pain I think that is right.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.


----------



## bfree

Now let's address the rest of the post.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> 3. I develop a plan to make sure they know that is not appropriate and they should not participate.
> 
> *The plan should be that you stay far away.*
> 
> 4. Matt asks me who I think might show up to the funeral. I discuss the possibilities with him and explain my plan of action to prevent breach of NC.
> 
> *This discussion is not necessary if you just stick to the NC rule and skip the funeral.*
> 
> 5. Matt disagrees with my plan, doesn't feel it is "right" to prevent someone from participating.
> 
> *He's right. You had the affair. You should suffer the consequences. You cannot prevent others from doing what they want. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but reality often is. *
> 
> 6. I reply that then I should step down from directing to prevent breach of NC.
> 
> *This is where you go off the rails. It sounds to me like you are now playing the martyr.*
> 
> 7. Matt disagrees and says he doesn't want me to do that either.
> 
> *Matt is playing the white knight here. Of course he is not going to let you fall on your sword. He loves you too much for that even if the alternative is him suffering emotional distress.*
> 
> 8. I asked for opinions here because I feel caught between two conflicting ideas. If I direct the choir, I am disrespecting Matt because of the potential issues involved. If I don't direct the choir, I am disrespecting Matt because he has expressly stated he wants me to do so. And instead of offering situations where people encountered NC individuals in a public setting, I am immediately told how awful and selfish I am yet again, and told that my R will fail because I don't love my husband, and how unfair it is for me to put this on him.
> 
> *Because there is no advice for dealing with NC individuals in a public setting. You make sure you don't put yourself in those situations and if you randomly run across them unexpectedly you walk away...period.*
> 
> Read the above carefully. NO WHERE did I ever go to Matt and say, I don't know what to do, what do you think. No where did I say I'd really like to do this even though there may be NC people involved. NEVER did I advocate for a NC person to be allowed to participate.
> 
> *You passive aggressively put it on Matt to make the call for you, even if you weren't aware that it was what you were doing.*
> 
> I have tried in every way I can think of to put Matt first in how we approach this, and the only reason I doubted my choices at all was because of his DIRECT input.
> 
> *Input that you never should have put him in a position to give.*
> 
> I can't even answer a question like, "What do you want for dinner?" without having an intense internal struggle about selfishness - because what if I want chicken and Matt wants fish and he lets me have chicken and then feels upset? I am working so hard to help Matt get better, and I am falling apart more and more every day.
> 
> I have a lot of respect for bfree, and I am crushed that he thinks I am somehow attempting to dodge my responsibility for this situation. I don't know how else to more clearly articulate what is going on here. I have been coming to TAM when I have questions or concerns, so everyone assumes that our lives are terrible and we are failing at R. I think it's actually a testament to how well we are doing that I am not here that often anymore. It could be a lot worse.
> 
> But my individual life is terrible. My internal emotions and strength are suffering. I've been told here that it's selfish for me to feel that way. I guess it's OK for a BS to struggle without a time frame because of what's been done to them, but a WS has to "get over it". And for the record - despite how much I struggle, I make every effort to NEVER show that to my family. Every day it is my job to be the happy one, the hopeful one, the one who gets up every morning and creates the kind of positive loving marriage that Matt deserves to be part of.
> 
> So that's where I am. I don't expect to be coddled or catered to. But I want my words to be accurately read and responded to, instead of the accusations and misrepresentations that are often made when I post. And I don't say this to be snarky - but it is overwhelmingly apparent that there is not a resource for someone like me to "cope with infidelity". If I were to choose a different forum for WS only it would be interpreted, I think, as hiding from reality and the devastation I caused my family, and seeking an environment where "it's all ok" and "everyone makes mistakes". I don't want that. I don't believe those statements are true. But I do need someone somewhere to help me. For Matt, I think the process we have been using is helping, to an extent. His pain is diminishing. Mine seems to be magnifying, and I don't know what to do about that. I was not expecting that to be the case over the past few months. I told our counselor this morning that I am worried that if we do reach a point where Matt can forgive me and fully feel in love with me again that I will not be able to recognize or accept that because my inner criticisms and punishment will have become too deafening to allow outside efforts in.
> 
> I want both Matt and I to be able to heal from this. I hope that can happen. Regardless of what you all think you see and feel here, I am trying. Every day.


The rest of the post I'm going to address here. Mrs M, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. I have a feeling that they are going to rub you the wrong way but I've never been shy about being direct.

Honestly, do you see yourself as a person that requires more than an average amount of attention? I ask that due to your vocation and extracurricular activities. Do you think that as you continually apply yourself to erecting and maintaining boundaries you are starving your ego from it's expected levels of attention.

The second question plays somewhat into the first. Since you are not receiving the accustomed attention do you think that is adversely affecting your confidence level? After all, for a while you were the belle of the ball albeit in a very negative way. It all centered around you. Now that you've had to tone it down is that having a negative impact on your self esteem?


----------



## russell28

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I could, but I don't. I'm not willing to put my sadness onto him. I caused it, he has enough to bear with what I did to him. He is affectionate every day. We touch, hug, kiss. This morning he asked how I was doing and spent extra time holding me in bed.
> 
> We have sex regularly, and I do feel close to him. I think a lot of my anxiety is self-inflicted. It's that voice that says, "Yeah he's being loving and kind, but he can't really mean it after what I did. He must just be trying to be nice."
> 
> No, I know he's not reading here anymore. He feels much better being away from the constant barrage of fresh betrayal that is so heart-wrenching here. He would be welcome to read anything I've written. Most of it has been communicated between us, I think, but he may not really understand the depths I feel, since I work so hard each day to prevent it from impacting my time with my family.



My wife does this, she doesn't think she's allowed to feel sad or be upset. I can tell when she's holding it in, I can also see where she's walking on eggshells around things like trying to make sure I get what I want for dinner to not be selfish and stuff like you are talking about. It makes me feel better and safer when she's open with me and tells me about her sadness. I want to know how she feels. If he's being nice to you, it's because he wants to. It's because he cares about you. He *is *just trying to be nice, because he's a nice person and he's trying to comfort you and comfort himself. It makes him feel close to you and he needs that. He does really mean it.


----------



## farsidejunky

MM:

I have been a a pretty vocal supporter of your R. I am now going to be a bit hard on you and (and possibly) Matt both. 

Start ******* communicating. Lack of communication is going to make this two years of wasted effort if you don't tell him how you are feeling. My guess? He would be incredibly understanding and would probably work harder. Every post from you anymore SCREAMS unmet need even when you are not saying so directly. Just... Frigging... Tell him... 

For the sake of your marriage, tell him.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Mrs_Methias @bfree response #7 is exactly it. He wants it to be your choice and not do it because that is what he wants you to do. Make the right choice....you know what that is....how would you feel if the roles were reversed? If you love your husband.. Let the dead bury the dead. If I saw POSOM, I would be wondering if two bodies could fit in that casket.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> I hope you're correct SP and you're right, I did not meant to offend Mrs M with my words. However, I do find it "surprising" that she still has difficulty recognizing what the correct path is.


I know.  You're a kind-hearted person. 

Could this maybe come back to boundaries again? 



bfree said:


> I can certainly understand the confusion a WS faces in the beginning with how to help heal their BS. But they've been at this for a while now and she has even enlisted the help of Steve Harley. I don't understand why it is even a question at this point as to how to proceed.


Maybe we should just ask Mrs M that. What is her thought process, where is the uncertainty, etc. She's obviously very committed to R. Sometimes we can't imagine how or why someone could think something and we make assumptions - possibly incorrect ones - based on our own processes and the way we think and feel about things. Though we're all the same as each other in some ways, we're all also very different from each other in some ways. 



bfree said:


> I almost get the impression that she would rather "force" Matt to say no rather than take the initiative and do what is best for him from the outset. And to me that reeks of selfishness.


But we don't know for sure. 



bfree said:


> I hearken back to B1 and EI and their reconciliation. Even though they were both extremely hurt and confused the one quality they both shared was neither one wished to hurt the other. They had empathy and I believe that is what carried them through.


B1 and EI are amazing. And their R is the kind of R we would all like to have (at least, I know I sure as hell would have liked mine to be that way). 



bfree said:


> I recall EI taking time stamped pictures when she first went to town without B1 so as to reassure him and begin the trust rebuilding. He did not ask her to do that. She just instinctively knew what would be the right thing to do and did it.


What if Mrs M needs help with these things and doesn't naturally come by that instinct to reassure? Not all people do.



bfree said:


> I think that is what makes them both exceptional and what has made their reconciliation the success it is. By questioning what the correct path would be here I don't see the same level of concern and it worries me that this far along in their R she doesn't instinctively know what would be the right thing to do FOR MATT. And I question if this is the reason they are still struggling so much during their reconciliation and why Matt's level of trust in her is not further along than it is.


But Mrs M is not EI, she is Mrs M. Same goes for Matt. While there are some common things that need to be present in R, I think everyone's path is necessarily different due to who they are and how their relationship is. (How much is truly instinctive with humans and how much is nurture? And how much is instinct thwarted by environment during the formative years? Who knows? There are too many variables.) 

With that same argument, one could say that I must not have done the right things with DS and that's why our R was just stuck in neutral and she was unable to be intimate or emotionally available with me. I personally think that's putting too much on one person. Both people are responsible for healing and rebuilding in R. A BS who is stuck or not ready to progress or trust yet can stall that just as much as a fWS missing the mark. Or it could even be a combination. Either/or. We just don't know for sure.


----------



## soulpotato

Mrs_Mathias said:


> But my individual life is terrible. My internal emotions and strength are suffering. I've been told here that it's selfish for me to feel that way. I guess it's OK for a BS to struggle without a time frame because of what's been done to them, but a WS has to "get over it". And for the record - despite how much I struggle, I make every effort to NEVER show that to my family. Every day it is my job to be the happy one, the hopeful one, the one who gets up every morning and creates the kind of positive loving marriage that Matt deserves to be part of.


Mrs M, someone else here mentioned your unmet needs. And I agree. You are going to break apart if you keep going this way. You have needs, and denying them too much and sacrificing yourself too much is going to end badly. You have to take care of yourself, too. Don't be so selfless that you completely lose yourself or fall apart. It's okay to ask, need, and want things. 

I do not know how you do it. I really don't. And I have said that often enough. If I had been in your place, I think I would have had several breakdowns by now, at the very least. 

The attitude that is directed towards fWSs is extremely invalidating. "Get over it", "your pain doesn't matter", "you don't have a right to have needs", "you deserve misery". That stuff is toxic! If you internalize it too much, it'll destroy you from inside.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> But I do need someone somewhere to help me. For Matt, I think the process we have been using is helping, to an extent. His pain is diminishing. Mine seems to be magnifying, and I don't know what to do about that.


I want to offer what help I can.  I am sorry you are suffering so much.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I was not expecting that to be the case over the past few months. I told our counselor this morning that I am worried that if we do reach a point where Matt can forgive me and fully feel in love with me again that I will not be able to recognize or accept that because my inner criticisms and punishment will have become too deafening to allow outside efforts in.


That is another danger. And you will just collapse in on yourself if it gets to that point, I think.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I want both Matt and I to be able to heal from this. I hope that can happen. Regardless of what you all think you see and feel here, I am trying. Every day.


I believe in you, Mrs M. Even in the time I've been here, I have seen how much effort you have put into your R.


----------



## seasalt

Mrs. Mathais,

It's often been said that the best revenge a betrayed spouse can exact is to go on with their life and live well. I think that advice can be applied to your current situation. Use this opportunity to show your colleagues, toxic friend, the a whole of an other man and perhaps most importantly yourselves that you have survived against all odds a devastation so many others could not.

You called her your closest colleague. Honor her by doing the best job of conducting the choir that anyone could do. Have your husband by your side and honor him by showing what he and his love means to you. Don't be afraid of your love.

In my opinion anything less would be disrespectful to your friends memory and your husband's remarkable example of forgiveness.

Good luck and stay strong for those you love,

Seasalt


----------



## clipclop2

by not addressing her needs and not communicating with Matt Mrs M gets to maintain a poor pitiful me air about her. 

Mrs M I would like to suggest that you require individual counseling. despite your claims otherwise you really do want to be coddled. You just don't know how to let someone take care of you in a healthy way. it's okay to ask for help. But at the same time there are some things that are no brainers. I really don't understand why you can't see them.

You cannot be all things to all people and you cannot please everyone. So you have to choose what is most important to you. It's that simple.

I'm not sure if you are too independent or if there are other issues going on with you. But something is definitely preventing you from having a fully bonded relationship with Matt. choosing matt is not not choosing yourself. Or at least it shouldn't be. 

you are so defensive and it really bothers me. it'd be one thing if the question that you raised were a difficult one. But its not. So what's with all of the poor pitiful me garbage? it always comes back to that. 

if you are being so it will done by in reconciliation maybe you just aren't cut out for this sort of thing. but I certainly don't feel sorry for your self inflicted wounds. 

surely you recognize that you can do better than this right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forever Grateful

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I could, but I don't. I'm not willing to put my sadness onto him. I caused it, he has enough to bear with what I did to him. He is affectionate every day. We touch, hug, kiss. This morning he asked how I was doing and spent extra time holding me in bed.


I do this sometimes as well. Especially when things are going well for him. I don't want to risk bringing him down when he's feeling good just because I'm struggling. But it usually ends up biting me in the butt, he can read me very well and knows when something is wrong with me. It annoys him when I hide my feelings.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> We have sex regularly, and I do feel close to him. I think a lot of my anxiety is self-inflicted. It's that voice that says, "Yeah he's being loving and kind, but he can't really mean it after what I did. He must just be trying to be nice."


I have that voice in my head as well. The same fears and insecurities that speak out against the love that is shown to me. But I had it pointed out to me all the things he does that contradict that voice, things that someone who didn't genuinely love someone won't do over a consistent period of time. Matt is consistently affectionate, he touches, hugs and kiss. He shows concern for how you were feeling and made sure to hold you in bed. That plus a thousand other things that go on through out your daily lives. All that is not an act, it's real love for you. I can't really silence that voice but I can lessen it by thinking of all the times RTBP proved it wrong.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I could, but I don't. I'm not willing to put my sadness onto him. I caused it, he has enough to bear with what I did to him. He is affectionate every day. We touch, hug, kiss. This morning he asked how I was doing and spent extra time holding me in bed.
> 
> We have sex regularly, and I do feel close to him. I think a lot of my anxiety is self-inflicted. It's that voice that says, "Yeah he's being loving and kind, but he can't really mean it after what I did. He must just be trying to be nice."
> 
> No, I know he's not reading here anymore. He feels much better being away from the constant barrage of fresh betrayal that is so heart-wrenching here. He would be welcome to read anything I've written. Most of it has been communicated between us, I think, but he may not really understand the depths I feel, since I work so hard each day to prevent it from impacting my time with my family.


Do not listen to all this stuff.

Do not let OM and the A run both of you anymore. If you do not do this, OM wins again. You and Matt run and hide while OM goes, nope.

You have come so far. The fact that Matt says go ahead and you still hesitate and seek advice to make sure you do not hurt him says it all.

This is your time to shine and show Matt. If OM shows then it is your time to show Matt you pick him.

Stay gold Mrs. M.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I can't even answer a question like, "What do you want for dinner?" without having an intense internal struggle about selfishness - because what if I want chicken and Matt wants fish and he lets me have chicken and then feels upset? I am working so hard to help Matt get better, and I am falling apart more and more every day.
> 
> But my individual life is terrible. My internal emotions and strength are suffering. I've been told here that it's selfish for me to feel that way. I guess it's OK for a BS to struggle without a time frame because of what's been done to them, but a WS has to "get over it". And for the record - despite how much I struggle, I make every effort to NEVER show that to my family. Every day it is my job to be the happy one, the hopeful one, the one who gets up every morning and creates the kind of positive loving marriage that Matt deserves to be part of.


This is no way to live, no wonder you are falling apart. Do you tell him of your internal struggles with something so simple as chicken or fish to eat for dinner? If you don't talk to him of your struggles, why not? There is no way I would want my WH to feel he has to set aside his own feelings and needs to that extent. 

In fact I ask him to tell me if there is anything I am doing or saying that makes him feel diminished in some way. 

I want to R a loving and equal relationship, not make him into a repressed machine that does my bidding and obeys my every whim. I'm sure Matt wouldn't want that either. He really wouldn't.

You need to talk to him. He snuggles you in bed and wants to know how you are. He WANTS to know. He loves you of that I am sure and if he loves you he can take it. Really he can.




Mrs_Mathias said:


> What do you think is best? I know that No Contact means No Contact, and as I said before, my initial instinct was to make sure they knew it wasn't a good idea. I don't feel anything except additional pain and stress at the potential encounter. Has anyone had to deal with something like this before?


I'm trying to think of a similar example of anything that has happened in our R and how it would have affected me. The only behavioural example I can think of is a very recent one.

My H works in law enforcement and he had a genuine reason related to his work to go a place where one of his previous KISA women works as a manager. He told me had been there and why. 

However he told me immediately after the fact and NOT before. If I had been checking where his phone was at that particular time, there would have been nothing that he could have said or done that would have convinced me everything was completely legitimate. 

I would have believed it would just have been an excuse and he was there to see her and NOTHING would have convinced me otherwise.

As it was I didn't look and he told me about it straight away. It took me a while to convince him that it was very wrong of him to not tell me beforehand, because something so simple and innocent had the potential to blow the R completely apart. 

He sees it now though and the extent and depth of the scrupulous honesty, integrity and completely OPEN communication that he needs to display every single moment of every day. 

You immediately communicated with him the request to be the choir leader and kept him right at the forefront in the loop, and he has agreed for you to do it. He loves you, he wants you to be happy. He is a big boy and has declared his feelings on the matter and you have to take that at face value. 

If he secretly is wanting you to say no by yourself, (and I don't think he is) then he should find the courage to communicate that to you. 

For this reason I think being the director of the choir is okay as long as you are scrupulous in your dealings with this toxic woman. 

As far as OM I can't comment. I have no desire whatsoever to cause harm to either of the women that my H destroyed my trust with, so it wouldn't bother me too much if we had to temporarily be in the presence of one of them. 

There is absolutely no chance that I would start a cat fight and be hauled off to jail. 

Matt is a man though and they have different feelings around that. Personally, IF YOU FEEL that there is even a remote possibility of that happening to Matt, there is no way I would be going there. 

You do owe him that.

I really feel your struggle coming through your words Mrs. M.
At the heart of your pain and struggles though, I believe, is your seeming reluctance to communicate ALL of that struggle and pain to Matt.


----------



## soulpotato

Glad to see you on the R thread, BA! 

I do worry about that in the situation of Mr and Mrs M - one or the other wants or needs something but doesn't or can't communicate it.


----------



## LongWalk

Mrs M,

It would be terrible if you continued to lash yourself for several more years, only to discover that Matt had not felt so much pain for a long time and had forgiven you even if he obviously could not forget the affair.

You are not entirely comfortable with yourself. But you are not alone. 

If you give love, you will probably get it back. Don't worry about being perfect.


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I could, but I don't. I'm not willing to put my sadness onto him. I caused it, he has enough to bear with what I did to him. He is affectionate every day. We touch, hug, kiss. This morning he asked how I was doing and spent extra time holding me in bed.
> 
> We have sex regularly, and I do feel close to him. I think a lot of my anxiety is self-inflicted. It's that voice that says, "Yeah he's being loving and kind, but he can't really mean it after what I did. He must just be trying to be nice."
> 
> No, I know he's not reading here anymore. He feels much better being away from the constant barrage of fresh betrayal that is so heart-wrenching here. He would be welcome to read anything I've written. Most of it has been communicated between us, I think, but he may not really understand the depths I feel, since I work so hard each day to prevent it from impacting my time with my family.


Accept his love and stop questioning it.

Part of showing someone you love them is to trust them. Trust Matt. Part of trusting is telling them how you feel. Tell Matt.

A BH can surprise you as much as you WW have surprised me.


----------



## clipclop2

And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make


----------



## CantSitStill

Sadly, because of your past infidelity, my opinion is that you do not go to the funeral at all. I know that is awful for you not to go to a dear friend's funeral but I feel you need to avoid even the chance that you will run into the ex om. It may cause a scene. You do not need to have one word with this man. If you do it would be invviting him into a conversation that does not need to happen. Also, with your husband, a fight at a funeral is disrespectul. So I suggest neither of you go. Yes that totally sucks but you have to do what you have to do. This is a consequence of your past choices. I no longer speak to a friend that used to be my best friend growing  up because she was toxic. She knew all about what I was doing and did not tell Calvin. That hurts him. So to make Calvin more at ease I do not even have her on facebook anymore. It is what it is..sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Had a nice day with DS on Saturday.  She was very sweet to me and we talked about a lot of things. (Mostly our self-work and how we were doing on that.) Speaking of, I need to spend more time doing the reading and exercises that my therapist gave me rather than arguing uselessly with people on TAM.


----------



## EI

soulpotato said:


> Had a nice day with DS on Saturday.  She was very sweet to me and we talked about a lot of things. (Mostly our self-work and how we were doing on that.) *Speaking of, I need to spend more time doing the reading and exercises that my therapist gave me rather than arguing uselessly with people on TAM.*


Yes ma'am!


----------



## jim123

I hope things worked out for Mrs. M.

No one deserves a break more than she does.


----------



## jupiter13

Hello again. Update we bought a house and moved in. Did he call again to set up counseling appointments? NO!Are old behaviors coming back up? Yes! HE said the other night that he was feeling rejected and that I was rejecting him. I told him I have done nothing to reject him and that I was sorry that "He was feeling" rejected but I would not be responsible for his feelings. HE called me a ***** and went to pout on his side of the bed. Clearly he has not learned anything from all this. Clearly I ended up feeling rejected.

Lately I have noticed that I am detaching. The same unanswered questions, lack of empathy and he never want to talk about anything or validate my feelings. When I trigger I have to keep it to myself cause it makes him fee bad and he does not want to deal with it. Tomorrow is will be 3 yrs. and nothing has gotten better each day is back to normal and we live. Our 14 anversary is 9/5 her birthday is 9/6. I hate it. I just finished reading Love is tough and I liked it. My next step is to make sure I can make it alone independent of him. Worst is we are going to have our 8th grand child in January and what a broken family she will have to come into this world to greet. I am hating life and sometimes I think I hate him. Today I am going to write one last letter and I am going to add her picture to our time line of family pictures hanging on the wall. He wanted a face to look at well here is that face that he has continued to protect their relationship since day one at my expense. He is still wearing his ring, he is still thinking he is doing everything to help but of course it is still all on his teams and not dealing with any of his emotions. I get nothing from him. I just can't move forward to forgive anything until he steps up Tonight I set the bar a bit higher. It's of course once again his choice. Isn't he lucky to have a choice as none of us did. I ranting enough said that is what is happening with us. Peace...


----------



## Mr Blunt

Jupiter13
I do not know your whole story but by what I have read I will summarize below:

York husband was in prison in the past ( 5-10 years ago?) and you waited for him to get out so you could be with him

On d-day ( 8-31-2011) he told you he wanted a divorce, had been with three other women, and beat you up physically

You had him put in jail for beating you but you refused to testify and brought him home to be with you.

He reads books and points out to you the parts of the book that tell you to move on.



*You stated:*



> He will never be the faithful husband I married no matter how any times we renew or get new rings.
> 
> I never will never again be that trusting wife he would like nor will I love him as completely as I once did.
> 
> I'm way too old to start another relationship or give up all that we have built.
> 
> SO I will just have to find contentment in me and what little happiness there can be.
> 
> I am blessed with grand kids that love me and animals that adore me that will have to be enough and it's more than some other.
> 
> He has continued to protect their relationship since day one at my expense.
> 
> My next step is to make sure I can make it alone independent of him.
> 
> He has continued to protect their relationship since day one at my expense.. I get nothing from him.


The above was prior to August 2014







The below is your satements in August 2014



> Update we bought a house and moved in. ( August 2014)
> 
> I just can't move forward to forgive anything until he steps up
> 
> Tonight I set the bar a bit higher


If I was inaccurate in my summary above please correct me.








Jupiter13

*Did you set the bar higher so that you do not have to face reality?*

Your statements above make it very clear that the pains that you are suffering from him will not change and he will never be faithful to you. You state that you will not love him or trust him like you once did.


It seems to me that you have built yourself your own private prison for you to live in due to your fear and being so needy.

You stated that you have the profession of being a CEO so that means that you are not financially destitute like so many are. I believe that you do not have to remain in your prison but it will take you to act and help from others. However, I think that the biggest obstacle right now is that you must make up your mind that you are going to face your fears and do some real tough changes to get out of your own prison.

*
Do you want to have a better life?

Are you wiling to have a life without your Husband in it?

What have you done t get out of your prison and free yourself of the emotional hell that you are in?*


----------



## soulpotato

Jupiter, I agree with Mr Blunt. I think it's time to let go. It's never too late to try to make your life better.


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## LongWalk

Calling Regret214,

Hello there famous TAM member.

Do you remember AMU (All Messed Up) and Harken Banks?

Harken has started posting about ending their marriage. Seems to be in despair. AMU has not posted in ages. But she did find you and Dig inspiring. Why is their reconciliation not doing well?

HappyMan suggested that he spank her in the bedroom. Seemed like good advice to me, but Harken thought she'd turn him into the authorities.

May be you could PM her?


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## Regret214

Once Dig was banned and I got a few let's call them "interesting" PM's, we agreed no more PMs. Just from my viewing, Harken and AMU need to leave being lawyers at work. They love the argument. I'm not talking about their martial issues, either. I'm talking about any argument in and of itself. It's what they do professionally. To put myself as an example, I've been a high school teacher for over 17 years. It is still sometimes a struggle to turn that part of me off when I'm home. It's especially difficult when I see things around the apartment that need to be tended to and Dig has been home all day since he works nights. I could speak to him like one of my students and try to "teach" him that he's capable of housework, but that would easily lead to an argument. 

There are so many dynamics at work with Harken and AMU, that nothing I could say right now would help. AMU needs to ask for herself. She's got a lot to work on for herself and Harken admittedly has stated the same regarding his growth.

In the end, if there was a video camera recording one week of the Banks' household, I think both of them would see that perspective and be mutually mortified. Their children have suffered far too long with this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

I agree. Maybe if they could record the dysfunction, see it for themsves and the damage it is causing to their kids they could actually do something g constructive together. 

All good points regret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

Regret214 said:


> Once Dig was banned and I got a few let's call them "interesting" PM's, we agreed no more PMs.


Oh dear. Sorry.


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## Regret214

Luckily, it wasn't you, HB! LOL. No, they were mean and taunting. Luckily, the poster was banned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

Regret214 said:


> Luckily, it wasn't you, HB! LOL. No, they were mean and taunting. Luckily, the poster was banned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I knew it wasn't me. I guess I misread your post and was concerned it might be someone to whom I am very closely related. Anyway, hope you guys are well. We were in your neighborhood for about 10 days in June and I thought about sending a note to say hi and even though I would have liked that then I thought maybe another time without the whole famdamily.


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## Regret214

We might have moved but Dig has the same email. Just so you know. 

I sincerely hope you two can figure this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

Regret214 said:


> We might have moved but Dig has the same email. Just so you know.
> 
> I sincerely hope you two can figure this out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. Well, we'll see.


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## oregonmom

I hope you all don't mind me posting here, I'm a long time lurker . I respect all of you a lot and appreciate that you don't beat anyone up. I know some 2x4's are coming my way, please don't swing them too hard 

Quick background of a very long story - me 33, SAHM, him 37, DS6, together 15 years, tomorrow is our 8th anniversary. Dday was 2/11/2012, he was in a year long affair. He is also a drug addict (pain killers), clean since Dday which is by far his longest amount of time, I'm very proud of his sobriety and involvement in AA and NA this time around, he is very serious about his sobriety. I have been in AlAnon since Dday also and it has helped me tremendously. His affair was with a woman 20+ years older than me that he was getting pills from, it wasn't a big love affair or anything like that, just the means to an end to get his pills.

On to more recent events that have crushed me. He just doesn't "get it". I read that short handbook mrsJA has in her signature, and the not getting it is what is holding me back from really jumping all in. He makes a lot of loving efforts for me, and part of me thinks I should have no complaints. The problem for me lies in that I was TT to death and have never gotten the whole truth (and think I only got what I did because I contacted the OW and she's the one who told me they were coworkers at the time and some other stuff and I told him I knew), he doesn't have any clue how devastating this all was (the dreaded "you need to get over it") and most of all, he has horrible opposite sex boundaries and refuses to see it or change. I guess it has changed some, but it is nowhere near where I hold my boundaries or where people here do, especially after an A.

We have had a few dust ups over this since Dday - the first two were women in his NA group texting love yous and xoxos to him and him replying back and not telling me. Then I was the crazy one cause that's just what you do in the program. Well, I am in the program too and I only do that with women, it doesn't seem safe to me to do with men and I would shut that down if I got a text like that. Round and round we went till he said he agreed with me and would shut it down and do better next time. Till it happened the second time, same I'm crazy thing followed by I agree and will do better. Then one of those women needed rides home 20 minutes away 1-2 times a week and I said I'm not ok with this. It's one thing if it is once in a while, this is ridiculous. Same fight over again, then he agrees. Why the heck am I believing that he agrees when he obviously doesn't? :banghead:

He comes home Saturday night and says some 18 year old girl is telling everyone at work how much she likes him and how hot she thinks he is and he's telling me to be transparent. Ok, thanks I say, what are you planning to do about that? Oh, nothing I was thinking cause I'm not a dirty old man so nothing is going to happen anyway. Argh...this is so ridiculous to me, I don't know why this was a shock he wants to just do nothing about it. I could go on and on about all the stupid stuff that was said, and of course it's me who was the crazy one and how hurtful it is that I don't trust him and he works so hard and he didn't do anything wrong she's the one saying it, blah blah blah. Well I just have thrown up my hands, we are never going to be on my page, so I am feeling like either I accept this opposite sex stuff or pack my bags. I was really offended too that he kept saying things like "I will do whatever you tell me to do", "just give me your instructions and I will follow them", "I just try to do the right thing but obviously that's not good enough for you". This is just complete BS, he does whatever he wants. I don't see myself as controlling at all. He goes out late, past 11, 2-3 times a week and I'm fine with it, he is doing stuff that is good for him. I don't even ask who he's going with, he usually tells me tho. I don't check his phone or FB or anything, I think I am pretty freaking trusting and easy going for the most part, it's just that he can't put up boundaries with women.

Apologies for my ramble...and I tried so hard to keep it short haha . I guess all I'm asking is am I missing an option here, is it just accept this as is or leave? I asked what a reasonable expectation for me to have regarding all this was and he said "as long as I don't start using again, I don't think I'd cheat on you again." So that's the standard I'd be accepting, along with cheating is PIV, that's it. I don't want to leave, most of that is really selfish because I'd be giving up so much time with my son (partial custody and having to go back to work FT) and I do love so many things about my H and our lives together. It's a big pill to swallow either way. Thank you all for listening ❤❤ Oh, and I'm happy to answer any questions as there could be millions of things I left out


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## As'laDain

sounds like he will cheat again if you dont keep your eye on him 24/7.

and even if he wont, he is not doing the things that you need in order to be able to trust him again. your reconciliation is doomed to fail if you cannot trust him, and unless he is willing to do the things to earn that trust, you never will. 

i would start making plans for divorce if i were you. he doesnt get it. maybe he will come around eventually, but either he is not afraid of losing you or he doesnt care if he does. 

think about it.


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## clipclop2

He isn't working the program. What does his sponsor say about his boundaries and has he done an actual inventory?


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## oregonmom

Thanks both for your replies. I completely agree that I don't trust him fully, and I shouldn't, he hasn't earned it. He thinks he has because he is transparent (I have his passwords and he tells me stuff). I don't think he has because even after all these times, he doesn't follow thru on what I thought we had agreed upon. I see that as lying to me. How's that earning trust?

I'm just being completely honest here, and I know this is my doormat side talking, but I just don't think I'm ready to follow thru with divorce yet, and I will not file unless I know I can follow thru. I've been a running tape of threats I didn't follow thru with before Dday and I will not fall into that pattern, it does way more harm than good. I'm not saying I'll never be ready, but today I'm not. I'm taught not to judge in my program, and it is really hard for me not to judge in this instance. Some people think being unfaithful or getting ego strokes from others has no bearing on their love for their spouse. I think that's BS, but who am I to judge haha . My H is one of those people, so I can accept he'll do his best and that he loves me no matter what, keep the rest of our lives that is quite good intact or find someone who agrees with my definition of fidelity. I know that all sounds totally ridiculous, and I'm not trying to be all SteveK, dismissive and argumentative . I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that, I'm just not ready to pull the trigger. I don't think it would hurt to dust off the resume and see what is out there as far as places to live tho, and I agree it's probably time.

I agree too about his program. He's working the drug angle well, but he's missing the other half of it. His sponsor is big on letting go of the past. My answer to that is its not the past if it is happening now and has repeatedly. I have no idea for sure, but I don't think he gives his sponsor the whole story. With me he has totally played the victim, I don't trust him, nothing he does is good enough, I don't give him any credit, he has been in such turmoil since he told me (ha, that one was tough to get by with a straight face ). That's his perception, and I'm guessing that's what he told his sponsor. Yes, he has worked the steps. This has been another point of contention for us, his amends were "I'm sorry for what I've done in the past, I will try my best to do better and it's time to move forward". That's not my idea of an amend, but that's me judging (and he has told me so). He's big on living amends, he is very sweet and caring and loving when it comes to things like sending me lots of sweet texts, helping me out with whatever I need, back rubs, snuggles, stuff like that. But honestly, that all feels manipulative, surface, instead of what I feel I need to be loved, fidelity, honesty, trust. If I felt secure in those big things, all that other stuff would tickle me pink. I am appreciative of all that and tell him so, but then he doesn't feel like I do when I question him. It's a vicious cycle of us talking past each other. One of his pat answers for things is I dont know what will happen tomorrow so I cant make any promises, I can only try and do my best today. I tried to relate this back to recovery, that he may not know what is going to happen, but he doesn't go hang out in bars, and if someone was saying they wanted to go get drunk with him, he wouldn't wait to say no until the beer was in his hand. I think it's a fair analogy, and he has no answer for that.

I have rambled on enough, EI you have competition . I will say I do know one more thing since my opening post, and that is a very good friend of ours and fellow coworker told me this girl said something to him and he read her the riot act and he thinks she realizes what an idiot she was being now. I feel very fortunate that someone stood up and did it and that I have awesome friends


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## clipclop2

LOL! All SteveK!


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## clipclop2

You can't let go of the past without making amends


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## clipclop2

He won't be nailed down to commitments. That's not going to work. You make commitments and promises that you follow through on and you build not only trust but character and self respect.

I think this guy is a lost cause. He is still a liar like most addicts.


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## Mr Blunt

Oregonmom

Do you have a female friend in the 12-step program that has a husband or very good male friend that goes to your husband’s NA-meetings? If you do you can you ask your female friend if her husband will do the 12-step thing with your husband regarding step number 9 below

*



Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Click to expand...

*
Your husband has harmed you and still is by the actions that you have described. I have seen serious 12-steppers in action and they do not beat around the bush, they will get in your face big time and call you on every bullshyt word that comes out of their mouth. Your husband needs a strong sponsor that understands the harm that his actions are doing to you and a seriously troubled household will lend it to relapse. Being diligent and being clean form dugs is very important and just as important is his family life; they can affect each other drastically for the good or the bad.

*How would your husband react if you were given all the attention and sex talk by another man like he has allowed with the other women?*

Meanwhile, if I was you I would keep working on yourself so that you can get as self sufficient as possible. You may have to go it alone some day so get yourself ready.


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## EI

oregonmom,

Welcome to the R thread! I'm happy to have the "competition," but I'm sorry to see the reason you're here. You're an absolute sweetheart and I wish that I could honestly tell you what I think you want to hear. But, I think you've been given some excellent advice on this thread, already. 

You deserve so much more out of your marriage and your life than what you're getting from your husband. Unfortunately, I don't even believe that you're dealing with the typical "mistress." I think your husband's only real mistress is his addiction. Everything else is just a means to enabling it. That is something with which you cannot compete. The addict has to be willing to choose recovery. No one can choose it for him. Even when not abusing substances, there are certain behaviors that addicts still engage in if they are not properly managing their recovery. 

My heart truly aches for you because you are so willing to go over and above the call of duty for your husband and your marriage. But, if you will truly take an honest inventory, of the last few years, and really ask yourself, what is he doing for you? Or even for himself, for that matter? What is he doing for himself that will help him strengthen his commitment to his sobriety, his wife, and his son (right?) 

(((HUGS)))


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## oregonmom

Thank you again everyone, I really do appreciate all of the replies and that you aren't beating me up . There is no 'right' thing I want to hear, I pretty much knew the gist of what would be said, and everyone is exactly right. I knew it in the bottom of my heart, but my own character flaws made me question what seems to be pretty clear. I know I'm not crazy and this is serious stuff, but it is helpful to be reminded since at home it's not well received.

On amends, yes, it's really hard to let something go and fully forgive when I don't fully know what I'm forgiving and in my eyes, the behavior keeps repeating itself. I have forgiven to a point, resentment just ate me up and made me a miserable person to everyone around me. That's not who I am. Forgiveness doesn't mean to me that I'm ok with what happened or I forget what happened, full forgiveness can come when I see in actions that he is not that person who did everything he could to blow up our relationship. I'm not going to sit around and stew and be pissy and let that control my life and mood forever, but I'm not going to pretend it never happened either, especially when it's behavior repeating itself. He feels I haven't forgiven at all, maybe he has forgotten what an unbearable b!tch I was? I wouldn't think so.

Mr Blunt, thanks and I totally agree that a really good sponsor isn't going to beat around the bush. Mine sure doesn't . This is confusing to me because I know his sponsor and he seems great. He has 20+ years, been married to his wife for 30+, is an inpatient councilor at a treatment center, and is just a nice guy who knows his stuff it seems like to me. Yet a lot of it is getting lost on my H. That is why I wonder if my h is giving him the whole story or just the poor victim me side. He's a master at that, giving his perspective look like fact and being totally convincing. You know on Judge Judy when someone will come in and give the 'story' then she says no, tell me exactly what they said and what you said then all of a sudden the story appears totally different? This is him to a T. I know cause I fell for it for years until I started asking him for exactly what was said. I know he can make amends, he has to other people. This is a huge assumption here, but I feel like he is focusing on the latter part of the ninth step - except when to do so would harm them or others. He is letting that justify him not telling me things about the A or any other multitude of sh!t he got himself into while he was using, it will hurt me. I think every BS here knows it's those wandering thoughts that hurt more, but he does not understand me when I tell him that.

As far as how he'd feel about me allowing other men to give me attention, he says he trust me fully so he wouldn't worry about it. He fails to see I work hard to avoid the slippery slope. I do have a lot of male friends but they are all his friends too and they all know I don't put up with any flirty stuff. That is why he feels so secure. Now if I were texting and accepting of flirtatious behavior with some man from my AlAnon group he didn't know, I think he'd sing a very different tune.

EI, thank you for your always kind words to me . Yes, I am dealing with a different mistress, aren't I. It's funny that I came here before I found out about the A and would read CWI and thought he acted exactly like this for years, the gaslighting, the rewriting of history, the lying, the blame shifting, on and on and on. The drugs have always been his number one mistress. I think he has chosen recovery from that. He has run out of justifications that it is ok and knows if he comes up with any that its just his addict brain talking. I've been thru a lot of relapses with him, and as far as the drugs go, this time is hugely different. I'm not saying he'll never relapse, but this time he has to jump thru a lot of hoops and fall really far unlike the others. Those addict behaviors still give him a rush tho, and he can still justify its ok cause he's convinced himself that it's an over reaction on my part. I know I can't compete with that, I "over reacted" about his drug use for years and it did no good, it only came from him. I know this time has to be the same. 

I don't want this to come off as defending him or like I'm overlooking the obviously huge flaws going on here. But I have b!tched about the bad stuff enough and you asked for what he has done, so here is the good. He goes to 3-4 meetings a week. He is sponsoring two people. He prays. He helps others. Maintaining his sobriety is the #1 priority to me in our marriage, no sobriety, no marriage. So I see everything that he does to stay sober as a huge effort towards our family. He has controlled his explosive anger. He tells me constantly how much he loves me, how lucky he is to have me, how appreciative he is of all I do. He shows me very true loving affection throughout the day instead of just when he wants sex. He is a fantastic father. My son and him have an absolutely wonderful relationship. I have no criticisms there in any way. We parent together great. He always asks, what can I do to help, or even nicer notices when I am busy or tired and takes initiative to help out. He is very supportive of my golf which is hugely important to me. Today, our anniversary, he woke up early and bought me coffee and breakfast in bed and is leaving work early to take me on a surprise night he planned all himself. None of this was my life when he was using, I might get a sniff of it every once in a while, but it was usually cause he screwed up big time and felt guilty and was manipulating me. So all that is great, right? Except for the big elephant in the room ready to sit down and crush all of that. The elephant has to be cleared out of the room if I am to truly appreciate the good stuff and not believe all that is just the same old manipulation.

Enough out of me, thank you for letting me write out all my thoughts and for the wonderful advice and words of encouragement. I truly am taking it all to heart even if I sound like I'm not, I'm just being totally honest with where I'm at today. I know I'm a bit slow


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Oregonmom*
> the not getting it is what is holding me back from really jumping all in.
> 
> The problem for me lies in that I was TT to death and have never gotten the whole truth
> 
> he doesn't have any clue how devastating this all was




You maybe right and he does not get it. Perhaps that is because he has never been devastated by betrayal like you have. He was devastated by his drug use and he gets that perfectly! If he ever suffered the pain that you have he would probably get it!

It appears that you can not make him get it so maybe someone else can. Some people are very responsive to their sponsor or their pastor and maybe they can get him to see more of how he is hurting you. However, the sponsor may just be honed in on addiction and not marital issues. I hope that you can find someone that can get through to him because I do not think that you are the one to get him to understand more. Are there others that will talk to him?


*‘…The whole truth” (gory sexual details or other deeply hurtful details?) *


This is just what worked for me and maybe it will not work for you. After I found out about the betrayal I decide that I did not need any more gory sexual details. Why? Because first off I had all I needed to set out my plan to deal with this affair. In a betrayal the spouse has put the BS in second place with a very selfish act and has done so in a very destructive way. That is enough detail for me to decide what I am going to do. Secondly, I wanted to protect myself. Yes I was like a moth drawn to the flame in that I wanted at times to know the details but I am very glad that I did not pursue that avenue. The mind games and videos can be horrible for decades or even for life.


*The main issue with me was trust.* Yes she was very emotional and devastated and was begging me to give her another chance. My plan was to divorce her and then *let her prove to me by ACTIONS for YEARS that she was committed to backing up her words with ACTIONS*


She backed up her words with actions for years and I remarried her. I now have a good amount of trust in her and am so glad that I do not have those mind videos of all the painful things that the details could have produced. I have read on this site how the BS is absolutely tortured by the details for decades! Some people have to have the details and that has worked for them but my way has worked for me for over 20 years.


Oregon mom
This is what you said that you need
*



I feel I need to be loved, fidelity, honesty, trust.

Click to expand...

*
*Will the details help you obtain those?*
*Will the details make it easier for you to trust him?*

Maybe you want them no matter what. Just weight the pros and cons for your situation. My way is not the only way.


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## harrybrown

Will your H go to counseling with you?

Somehow, the proper boundaries are not operating.

If the roles were reversed, your H would not be happy with the situation.

Do you have children? I missed that information. 

I do hope you have better days and progress with your situation.


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## margrace

Hi, Oregonmom:

Some parts of your story remind me a bit of my experiences. I'm about 2 1/2 years out from my first DDay, and my R is going really well -- but like your WH, my fWH did NOT get it right away. He seemed to be working on the marriage in many ways, but he also TTed me and had contact with OW for about the first 9 months of that time.

Wow, those 9 months were miserable. And I kept wondering, are these my choices? 1) Go ahead and leave or 2) accept that *this* is the marriage, that it's who he is and it's the best he can do....? Neither one felt good in my gut. At times I wished that it could be as simple as #1, but annoyingly, I did still love him and I did still see lots of good in him. Yet I certainly did not want to live out my days in the relationship as it was then (choice #2). The other wrinkle in my story (which I think is different from yours) is that our marriage was on life support before the A -- we had become quite distant from each other -- and those problems were my responsibility to fix as well as his.

During that false R year, I also found this thread to be a place where people were very direct but did not beat me up  and long story short, FINALLY my WH who didn't get it it, got it. The man who couldn't talk about feelings, COULD. Before then, omg, how many excuses did I hear about why the details about A were not important, they would only hurt me more, let's not live in the past, etc etc? FINALLY it all came out.

And I needed that transparency. I used to tell people here, I feel like I'm in the matrix -- do you know what I mean? I don't know the reality of my own marriage, of the circumstances that I myself have been living through... and why don't I know? Because of purposeful lying and manipulation by my own H, which was then continuing right along! For me, that had to be completely ended and undone before a new marriage could be built in the clearing.

He, of course, felt tremendous shame about it all and had to find the courage to go into that place of shame and be willing to look at how he had used (and justified) lying and hiding to deal with problems all his life.

We had a great MC who helped tremendously. I wrote here a bunch and also showed posts on this thread to WH. Once I wrote here about his having made a phone call to OW toward the end of our false R period. Of course, he had a whole rationalization for it. There was a response to me from Mr. B that hit him really hard, and that he still mentions -- Mr. B referred to him as "an azzhole" in it  

Why stick around while someone who has hurt us so deeply does this work? Because we have made mistakes too, and we have hurt people too (or at least I have), and I need the opportunity to learn and make amends and do better, too. And this process doesn't cancel out all the wonderful things about a person -- you listed out many wonderful things about your H.

All of this to say: my gut tells me that your fWH is one of those who can do better. He has made real amends to others -- he can do that for you. He can understand that transparency is absolutely a requirement, and *he can do it*. And he must understand that all these little (and not so little) boundary-crossings of his with other women have to end once and for all. 

In spite of all he knows about himself and his addiction, he is still trying to hang on to little scraps of his familiar ways of getting through life -- he is still indulging in some of the old avoidance and feel-good strategies that have helped him cope thus far.

I guess I don't necessarily see it as time to divorce him, but I also don't want you to give up on actively expecting more from him









xxx mg


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Margrace*
> *The man who couldn't talk about feelings, COULD*. Before then, omg, how many excuses did I hear about *why the details about A were not important,* they would only hurt me more, let's not live in the past, etc etc? FINALLY it all came out.
> 
> *And I needed that transparency.* I used to tell people here, I feel like I'm in the matrix -- do you know what I mean? I don't know the reality of my own marriage, of the circumstances that I myself have been living through... and why don't I know? *Because of purposeful lying and manipulation by my own H,* which was then continuing right along! For me, that had to be completely ended and undone before a new marriage could be built in the clearing.
> 
> 
> All of this to say: my gut tells me that your fWH is one of those who can do better. He has made real amends to others -- he can do that for you. *He can understand that transparency is absolutely a requirement*, and he can do it. And he must understand that all these little (and not so little) boundary-crossings of his with other women have to end once and for all.



Margrace is another one of my favorite people on this forum. She did a very good job of explaining how transparency and details were important and helped stop the lying and manipulations. 

I want to add a bit more clarity to my previous post so that I am clear on my position on transparency and DETAILS

TRANSPARENCY
I am in 100% in agreement with transparency that exposes and corrects purposeful lying and manipulations and promotes R.




DETAILS
I am also 100% in agreement with details that help promote love, fidelity, honesty, trust

*I am 100% AGAINST GORY SEXUAL DETAILS* and that is what I was referring to when I said in my last post the following:


> ‘…The whole truth” (gory sexual details or other deeply hurtful details?)



I remember reading on this forum about the WS- wife giving details such as the OM had such a huge dik and in another case the WS-husband telling his wife how the OW was so much thinner and had such a great body and explained gory sexual details that she did for him. *Those details can sabotage an R and leave horrible damaging mind images for the BS that last for decades or a life time.*


*In addition, how do gory sexual details help with love, fidelity honesty, and trust?*


In my opinion they work at destroying love, fidelity, and trust. Some may argue that TOTAL TRUTH helps but I do not buy that. Total truth about gory sexual details is useless and more damaging than any bit of gain that may be gotten in the area of honesty



So I would encourage OregonMom to utilize transparency and details that help expose and prevent lying and manipulations and also help to promote love, fidelity, honesty and trust. I would DISCOURAGE OregonMom from seeking transparency and details about gory sex acts and thoughts that do absolutely nothing to promote love and fidelity but in fact destroy love and hurt the chances or a real R.


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## oregonmom

It is really hard for me to be vulnerable and open, and I really struggled with putting all this out there. I am so glad I have, you all have been wonderful, thank you ❤

MrBlunt, you make perfect sense and I do agree with you. I don't want to know the gory details...I don't think I do at least . If we go back to Dday, I made what I see as a HUGE mistake now. I pressed my H for what happened immediately cause well, I was pissed and he owed it to me if I was staying in the house for even a minute longer was my thinking. H was high as a kite tho, no way he's going to tell me the truth while he's wasted. I know that was totally unreasonable of me to expect now. It took months of clearing his brain up before he started being more honest about what happened. I don't think he thought I had the guts to contact the OW either, and once I had her side of the story I realized how much he was lying. I just want to say too, I don't believe everything she said either, the truth is somewhere in the middle. But as weird as this may sound, we had very nice exchanges and I don't consider her a bad person. Just lonely and a bit mentally off and was taken by my H's flattery and manipulation. She said she knew a few months into it it was all about the pills and it had nothing to do with her, but she denied it because she just wanted any kind of companionship. But back on track here, I certainly remember what my H said back then, and my mind thinks was that the truth or was that a lie? He was so high he has no idea what he told me. He was so high throughout the A he doesn't truly remember everything. It's a mess.

The big things I wonder - who started it? My first email from OW laid out how long they were coworkers, when the flirting started and a very detailed description of their first kiss, that was my H initiating. My H's version at that time was she was a customer who came in and he asked for her number to get pills then when he went to her house she jumped him. Once I said I know you were coworkers, the story changed to she jumped me, I thought she might like me but I didn't think it was a big deal. I think that's a lie, and a big whopper at that. And maybe I'm playing dirty (please tell me if I am!), but these 'innocent' things that I'm over reacting to I will say, but didn't OW just jump you unexpectedly, you knew she might have a thing for you but you ignored it, right? Are you going to stop it before that happens again or wait till someone jumps you? Then he squirms cause he either needs to admit he lied about that, or admit I'm right he should stop it before that. He painted himself into a corner. They both claim sex only once in a year, but both told me they were different times, oops. That tells me at least twice. It took my H a year and a half to admit well maybe it was twice, I don't know, I can't remember. I don't need an exact number, or what happened when they did, I just would like him to admit he has lied about that. I would like to know how long it took him to start using again after he got out of rehab the last time 6 1/2 years ago. Was it a month, a year, two years? He says he doesn't know, but he was lying at some point when he was picking up his chips, and I'm sure he has a pretty good idea. That's the stuff I really want to know. There is probably stuff he has lied about that I have no idea he has lied about, and it would mean a great deal to me if he told me. I really can't get more mad about anything he has done, it can't be worse than what I know already. The way I see it, he won't have to carry that burden of hiding things anymore, and it's long enough ago in the past where I know how messed up he was and how codependent I was that there was tons of unhealthy stuff going on and I'm not going to beat him over the head with it. What's done is done if he has learned from it.

MC is kind of the same story. We did go for a few months. Much too early. We also went to a couples recovery meeting for about the same amount of time. He didn't want to talk. It was like pulling teeth. Things have been different since the beginning of this year tho, most of the good stuff I wrote about have become consistent instead of when he felt like it. Maybe it is time to approach the subject again. He also has never read any books I suggested because 'he's so busy', but that too I might throw out there. That mini handbook is awesome and such a quick read.

Margrace, your post meant so much to me, thank you. You completely nailed so much of what I am feeling. I do believe he can do it if he wants to and if he is willing to follow direction from someone, someone who is not me. If you told me two years ago he's still be sober today, I would have said no way. He doesn't want it enough, he doesn't want to follow the program, he's too stubborn, he's tried to how many times already and it hasn't worked yet, he just doesn't get it. And I would have been wrong. So I have been inspired to be more vulnerable with him too. I hide a lot of what my feelings are about all this because I am afraid. But my fear isn't going to get me anywhere, I need to share exactly where I am at with him too, and I feel confident in myself that I can do that in a non confrontational, non threatening, loving way. He deserves to know there are times when I am holding onto this marriage by one pinky finger, I know it will be hurtful, but less hurtful than if I just pack my bags and walk out the door one day because he didn't understand just how dire this was. I will pray he will be open to be guided by someone, or a book or a forum or whatever he may choose and buy in like he bought in to his recovery. It is time to stop being afraid tho and get totally honest. I am not perfect either, not by a long shot. I still have lots to improve on myself. I can't let what my H is doing or not doing distract me from what I need to do for me.

Our anniversary was lovely. We had a couples massage, we went to eat at an old place we would go when we were dating all the time. We drove to places around town that were special to us. We went for dessert where we got our wedding cake. He didn't answer his phone the whole time (major pet peeve) . Beautiful flowers and card. I admit I was quite impressed he pulled all of that off and how thoughtful it was. We have the potential to be a very successful and loving marriage, if we can both buy in, I really believe it. That is what I find so sad about this whole thing, it seems so close, yet it is so far away.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Oregonmom*
> We have the potential to be a very successful and loving marriage, if we can both buy in, I really believe it


From what you have written so far I am inclined to believe you 100%!!!
Yes he can do better but I will get to that later. Here is what you said about your husband’s good points




> He's big on living amends, he is very sweet and caring and loving when it comes to things like sending me lots of sweet texts, helping me out with whatever I need, back rubs, snuggles, stuff like that.
> 
> So I see everything that he does to stay sober as a huge effort towards our family. He has controlled his explosive anger. He tells me constantly how much he loves me, how lucky he is to have me, how appreciative he is of all I do. He shows me very true loving affection throughout the day instead of just when he wants sex. He is a fantastic father. My son and he have an absolutely wonderful relationship. I have no criticisms there in any way. We parent together great. He always asks, what can I do to help, or even nicer notices when I am busy or tired and takes initiative to help out. He is very supportive of my golf which is hugely important to me. Today, our anniversary, he woke up early and bought me coffee and breakfast in bed and is leaving work early to take me on a surprise night he planned all himself



To me that seems like a LOT to work with as he does a lot of things that are VERY POSITIVE. I know of successful marriages that the husband does not do that much. He is really great in many ways. However, he was in addiction and did commit the mother of all marriage killers---betrayal!

Now I am going to say a few words about what I hope will be some actions that he may consider doing in order to help you and himself. First I am going to reprint some of your deep concerns below:




> *By Orgegonmom*
> the first two were women in his NA group texting love yous and xoxos to him and him replying back and not telling me.
> 
> Then one of those women needed rides home 20 minutes away 1-2 times a week and I said I'm not ok with this
> 
> He comes home Saturday night and says some 18 year old girl is telling everyone at work how much she likes him and how hot she thinks he is and he's telling me to be transparent
> 
> he wants to just do nothing about it.



Is your husband so desperate for ego stokes from women that he is blind? Even Stevie Wonder can see that the above is like an alcoholic talking to another alcoholic about how good alcohol is then driving that alcoholic to the bar. Unless your husband has the testosterone count that is one tenth of the average male he is playing with fire.


Of course you know all this. I would say that some man that he highly respects should take him by the collar and pull him about 3 inches from his face and tells him in a serious voice that* he is choosing his ego over his committed wife,son, and his sobriety.* The man should also tell your husband that if does not do better in that area that he risks having emotional crises that would jeopardize his gains in recovering from addiction.


As for his transparency, he is hurting you by not taking some action to let them know that you are number one and that he is not going to let anything change that. One way that would help me if I was in your shoes would be for your *husband to tell the oxoxoxo women that he is going to show all of his texts to his wife. As for the 18 year old female your husband can tell her that his wife thinks the same and that he is going to give his wife the 18 year female’s number so that they can both talk about how hot he is.*


As for the 20 minute ride home he can either stop altogether or tell the ladies that *he is going to pick up his wife so that she can also enjoy the 20 minute ride with all of you.*

Your husband can do this without being hateful to the women. I know that he is reluctant to be hateful to the women that are stroking his ego but he can do the above with diplomacy and without a lot of reluctance on his part.* It will be a non-hateful message but gets the points across loud and clear.* I doubt that those ladies will want to have their texts read by you, talk to you on the telephone about their saying he is hot and I am sure they will not be so eager to have your husband give them a ride with you sitting right next to your husband in the car with his arm around you.


Tell your husband that I am very impressed with his sobriety and his good treatments of you. He deserves a lot of credit for breaking his dependency on drugs; now he needs to break his decency on flattery from other women. *That really is a sign of weakness when you have to have that flattery at the expense of your wife, sobriety, and children*. Every man likes to have women flatter them but lets look at reality. Those women are giving free lip service because they want something from him. *The really do not give a shyt about him because if they did they would not be doing things that could jeopardize his sobriety and marriage.* 


He is not superman and if he gets weak at the right time he may fall for these women and get involved with them. At that point he will lose you and probably run back to his crutch…drugs. If that happens he will be crying and telling people how sorry he is and how he is suffering bla bla bla....


Right now he is nearing the top of his game and is kicking AZZ and building himself back up. I hope he realizes that losing his wife, his children, his sobriety and his integrity and self respect is not worth a few flattery remarks by same women that really do not care about him. The only ones that really cares about him are his children, you, and maybe his NA buddies that want to help him stay sober and have a good family life. All the rest are like shiny apples that look so good but when you bite into them they are full of maggots! 

Your husband has gained too much now to give it all up for some cheap lip service and flattery. *He will get a whole LOT more self respect, integrity, and warm relations from his wife and children by staying sober and helping his children’s mother heal from the pain of betrayal.*


*If you are sure that this will help him then give him this post and tell him that I suggested it and not you.*



*My son now has 6 years completely clean from meth this month and I thank him and God.*It was real bad and his girlfriend committed suicide at the age of 27 because of the drug lifestyle
I had heart trouble because I could not find him for months at a time and the only time I would see him is when he was in jail or was beaten badly in the gang drug area; he bled for days.



I get so positively excited to see someone like your husband kick drugs in the AZZ! My son was on hard drugs for 10 years and I have nothing good to say about addiction and woman and men that use lip service and flattery to maniple others because it can put them right back into drugs and destroy and devastat family relationships 


*My son was lost but now he is found, he was blind but now he sees. *

We are so close and he has lived with us for the last 6 years. We are now together building a shop for him in my back yard and I love it!!!


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## oregonmom

First off, congrats to your son!! That is awesome!:smthumbup: It just warms my heart to hear stories like his and yours 

As for your post, yes yes and yes! I was nodding the whole time I read it  I don't need him to be "mean", just clear and not dismissive. I mentioned earlier that when this girl said something to a friend, he did say something about it. My friend is probably the most non-confrontational, 'nice' (aka extremely beta) guys I know and he told me he told her I'm not cool with this type of conversation about any married person, let alone two of my best friends because this kind of stuff ruins families, it's not innocent or fun. That I was a good person, wife, mom and friend and didn't deserve that. Then she cried and said she hadn't thought of it that way and she would stop. He felt bad for making her cry (lol, right back to beta ) but he would have felt worse letting something go that would hurt his friends. That was all I was looking for from my H, I didn't want a big scene or a scolding or huge professions of love for me to her, just a simple 'I'm a married man who loves his wife and I'm not cool with this'. Although I do like your answer better :rofl:

The rides home, I did exactly that! My sponsor gave me that suggestion too, and since S6 goes to his meetings sometimes, I was fine if I didn't drive with but S6 did. Too much alone time just leads bad places. If he is spending 20-30 minutes a week in the car, plus texting, that adds up to a lot of alone time in a year! Most of this stuff doesn't just happen over night, you just think everything is fine and there is no attraction, we're just friends, then you spend more time together, and the conversations get more intimate, and there goes the snowball if neither have boundaries.

And let's be honest here, I think we all get ego strokes every once in a while. The guy pumping my gas the other day was obviously flirting with me, I didn't pop off at him that I was married and I freely admit it made me feel good (and better, I got a very clean windshield ). But I couldn't tell you the guys name, what he looked like, I'm not going to the gas station hoping I'll see him, I haven't even thought about it honestly. Now if someone I knew and that I saw regularly was flirting with me, I wouldn't feel warm and fuzzy ego strokes, I'd feel uncomfortable and creeped out and stop it. That's the major difference.

He is out of town until tomorrow night, but I am seriously considering showing him not only your post, but this thread. I think I need to lay it all out there first with him and let him know how much this has helped me, and maybe he might check it out too. That is super scary thinking he would read my posts then, but nothing I have said is meant to be hurtful and I feel my intentions are pure. So lots of praying, thinking and courage gathering to be done . Thank you so much for all of your wise words!


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## calvin

Wow,I've been missing a lot.
Been pretty busy wth the hours at work and projects around the house.
Nice to see the R thread running strong again.
Me and CSS continue to improve,love,care and appreciate more every day.
There have been some triggers for me,a couple were bad but had no staying power.
Two years and eight months ago I thought my life was over or at least I'd never
be happy again.
I'm glad we tried,no regrets.
I have a very loving woman who deserved a chance.
Now we have to put up our Bears stuff,we're way late this year.
That's bad luck,opening day tomorrow,Bears vs. Bills....Bills....I guess that's 
better than some other NFL team names.
football pools all paid up for the season.
You have to love it when your wife enjoys football
and is a Bears fan also.
Enjoy your opening. Day weekend people!!
GO BEARS!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## convert

I just read Rookie's and his exww (exFWW) (sweetie) what almost a year long R about a year ago after being separated divorced 2 1/2 years.
I agree with bfree in that separation is not the best in most cases if R is main goal.
Being pro R myself I found myself rooting for them while reading though the old threads but had to remind myself it did not work.
I feel empathy toward sweetie and wonder how she is doing, it seemed like she did every thing she could just maybe to late.
I just wonder if the feelings Rookie had for another women help keep him for loving sweetie?

heck it look like a better R them me and my WW. The difference we never separated and I have not dated (still married).


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## Rookie4

convert said:


> I just read Rookie's and his exww (exFWW) (sweetie) what almost a year long R about a year ago after being separated divorced 2 1/2 years.
> I agree with bfree in that separation is not the best in most cases if R is main goal.
> Being pro R myself I found myself rooting for them while reading though the old threads but had to remind myself it did not work.
> I feel empathy toward sweetie and wonder how she is doing, it seemed like she did every thing she could just maybe to late.
> I just wonder if the feelings Rookie had for another women help keep him for loving sweetie?
> 
> heck it look like a better R them me and my WW. The difference we never separated and I have not dated (still married).


Well, I haven't re-visited my old posts, but I can give a little update. Sweetie had a very bad auto accident a few months ago, and my GF and I asked her to come live with us, until she was able to be on her own. She is recovering nicely and has moved in with one of our kids, and will return to work within the month. She has dated a couple of men, but nothing serious as yet, although one of them is a real stand-up guy and supported her during her injury.
GF and I are doing great!!!! I have never met a more compassionate, loving woman in my life. How many women would allow an ex wife to live with them? She is the BEST!!


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## DaisyNewYork

Like going somewhere far, distance ain't important wht matters is taking a step at a time to get their


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## Refuse to be played

What the hell happened to this site while I was gone??? Heard it went nuts for a bit but, damn.

Hope everyone is doing fine. It's been awhile but, stepping away for a bit was good for me. Being on and reading here as often as I did was making me turn into more of a cynical jaded SOB than I already kinda am.

Overall things are going pretty good. FG is still doing all the right things. We're getting along well for the most part. We've stopped going to MC, I got tired of it. I also will be graduating this winter, glad to finally have my degree.


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## Forever Grateful

Refuse to be played said:


> What the hell happened to this site while I was gone??? Heard it went nuts for a bit but, damn.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing fine. It's been awhile but, stepping away for a bit was good for me. Being on and reading here as often as I did was making me turn into more of a cynical jaded SOB than I already kinda am.
> 
> Overall things are going pretty good. FG is still doing all the right things. We're getting along well for the most part. We've stopped going to MC, I got tired of it. I also will be graduating this winter, glad to finally have my degree.


Welcome back babe!


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## calvin

Yeah,been a little slow here lately,I hope that's a good sign.
Glad to hear you guys are doing better,me and CSS are doing pretty good,we're going
back to MC next week to work on a few things.
Yaawnnn....tired today....time to weld the coils...ugh.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

After a hiatus RoadScholar updated his thread *No Sex After Her Affair*. After 6 months of false reconciliation, came Dday2, in an email in which his wife reached out to OM, lovingly while he was getting zero affection.

Once hit with this he grew a backbone and resolved to divorce. His WW immediately changed her tune. However, she refused to tell all about the affair. For many of the followers of his thread her refusal to provide a timeline was deal breaker. He suspected that she had hooked up with OM after Dday2, but he never got this out of her.

There marriage has survived this obstacle and he admits that more negative facts might have destroyed their reconcilation. Now they are in a much healthier relationship.

She is a less selfish person and he is not the fixer he once was. This is fundamental change in them.

RS seems to have benefited from TAM but he tempered the uncompromising advice.


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## oregonmom

Hi everyone,

Well, I finally found my backbone last night and put a lot out on the table for my H to think about. I know his track record and it's much too early to know how things will go from here, I can at least say it wasn't horrible and that is good.

Since I last posted, I read a book that really opened my eyes to what was going on in my marriage. Back when he was using, he was very verbally and emotionally abusive towards me. While he never hit me, he did scare me with his anger outbursts of breaking things, punching holes in the walls, that kind of stuff. That all has improved since he stopped using, so I told myself he is not abusive anymore. Well, I was lying to myself. He may not call me names now, but he is absolutely still mind fvcking me, and that is abuse. I'm not allowed to state what is bothering me without being put through a psychological attack, and that is abuse. He still occasionally has those scary physical outbursts when I'm not bending to his will, and that is abuse. I have been journaling what has been happening the last six weeks or so all the interactions that just left me feeling like WTF just happened here, and it's clear as day. I just had to see it with my own eyes where he couldn't tell me I was crazy for thinking that anymore.

So anyway, I know if I dropped the abuse word that would totally set him off. He has a problem with the word disrespect too, but that is what I went with. I laid out 5 or 6 specific examples of things he had done in the last few weeks that I found to be very disrespectful and while he tried to argue it, I didn't accept any of it (yay me ). Not saying I didn't listen to his side or totally discounted it, I just didn't let him turn it around onto me. My biggest thing I wanted to get thru, and I think I might have, was when he said he just reaches a point where he can't control his anger. I said BS. Have you broken things at work? Yelled at a customer? Ever done it in front of my parents? No, no, and no. Well, that sounds like you can control it if it is in your best interest. I think that hit him pretty hard. He couldn't dispute that.

As far as the 18 year old goes, he never said anything to her. He claims because she got laid off shortly after. Whatever, he just didn't want to, and of course that hurts a lot. He never told me she was laid off either, thanks hon, that was nice of you. He said it was because he was afraid of my reaction to bringing up the topic. So I asked what my reactions have been to make him afraid because that is shifting the blame on to me. Of course he could name nothing, then said well its all made up fear in my own head. At least he took responsibility once I pointed it out.

He agreed to read some things on respect and invalidation, that is big for me. He has never agreed to read anything, he's always "too busy". I hope he can see what I'm talking about better when it's not me saying it. I've mentioned that is a big problem for us.

Of course I know this isn't all butterflies and rainbows, there is a lot of really bad stuff going on. But at least I put it out there. I flat out told him I am afraid of him, which took a heck of a lot of courage. The ball is fully in his court, and I will see what he does with it.

Thanks for listening ❤


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## old timer

Hi y'all!
:smthumbup:


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## thummper

calvin said:


> Wow,I've been missing a lot.
> Been pretty busy wth the hours at work and projects around the house.
> Nice to see the R thread running strong again.
> Me and CSS continue to improve,love,care and appreciate more every day.
> There have been some triggers for me,a couple were bad but had no staying power.
> Two years and eight months ago I thought my life was over or at least I'd never
> be happy again.
> I'm glad we tried,no regrets.
> I have a very loving woman who deserved a chance.
> Now we have to put up our Bears stuff,we're way late this year.
> That's bad luck,opening day tomorrow,Bears vs. Bills....Bills....I guess that's
> better than some other NFL team names.
> football pools all paid up for the season.
> You have to love it when your wife enjoys football
> and is a Bears fan also.
> Enjoy your opening. Day weekend people!!
> *GO BEARS*!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a Bears fan all the way back to the '60's and the championship team quarterbacked by Billy Wade! :smthumbup: 
Not doin' well this year, but at least they beat the Vikings last Sunday! Do you suppose they can coax Jim McMahon out of retirement?


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## thummper

Lots of luck to you, Oregonmom. I'm an Oregondad (that's the *state*, not the university.) I hope everything works out well for you.


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## RV9

Is this the longest thread on TAM?


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## bfree

I would say so.


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## calvin

thummper said:


> I'm a Bears fan all the way back to the '60's and the championship team quarterbacked by Billy Wade! :smthumbup:
> Not doin' well this year, but at least they beat the Vikings last Sunday! Do you suppose they can coax Jim McMahon out of retirement?


Thump
They're better off if they dig up Sid Luckman
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> Is this the longest thread on TAM?


*Not the longest but the BEST!!*


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## oregonmom

thummper said:


> Lots of luck to you, Oregonmom. I'm an Oregondad (that's the *state*, not the university.) I hope everything works out well for you.


Thanks thummper! So are you saying you are a Beaver too? It was nice to see us show up last weekend finally


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## RV9

Those who reconciled, what was your main motivation? Was it love or other more pragmatic reasons?


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## badmemory

RV9 said:


> Those who reconciled, what was your main motivation? Was it love or other more pragmatic reasons?


When I first made the decision to R; too quickly I might add; I thought it was 90% love and 10% pragmatism. I went through a hysterical bonding period, and being a male, I fully felt the urge to "reclaim my territory". 

That passed. I had a lot of doubts for the first year or so.

Now, after 3 years, the reason I stay is mostly pragmatic. Finances, a nice home I don't want to leave, too old to want to start over. Those types of things. And, that my wife has been much kinder and more loving than she was before. So life is "comfortable".

But it seems I've encountered an emotional ceiling with her, that I can't seem to get past. I think what contributes to this is the severity of my WW's betrayal, and some partial rug sweeping along the way.

I'm not complaining though and I don't mean to be to be a downer. R is "good enough" for me.


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## calvin

RV9 said:


> Those who reconciled, what was your main motivation? Was it love or other more pragmatic reasons?


 Love,a sense of loyalty,little scared,worried about her,my kids and some fear of the unkown.
A new life,new partner,new woman and thoughts of how things could be better for me also made me think
why even try R after the way I was treated?
Almost three years in R,it seemed like the right thing to do,now I question myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Bump


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## IIJokerII

bfree said:


> Bump


More like dump, Recon is for damaged couples with one too timid and broken to move on with the other too scared yet content to destabilize their lifestyle. One pays the price of eternal memory of the pain while the other suffers the inflicted pain of the BS, but only for a time. 

Yes, I am being bitter and after some sleep I'll probably have a change of opinion......maybe.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Reconciliation...*



IIJokerII said:


> More like dump, Recon is for damaged couples with one too timid and broken to move on with the other too scared yet content to destabilize their lifestyle. One pays the price of eternal memory of the pain while the other suffers the inflicted pain of the BS, but only for a time.
> 
> Yes, I am being bitter and after some sleep I'll probably have a change of opinion......maybe.


Don't let the pessimism in your situation sour the optimism of others brother.


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## As'laDain

IIJokerII said:


> More like dump, Recon is for damaged couples with one too timid and broken to move on with the other too scared yet content to destabilize their lifestyle. One pays the price of eternal memory of the pain while the other suffers the inflicted pain of the BS, but only for a time.
> 
> Yes, I am being bitter and after some sleep I'll probably have a change of opinion......maybe.


my reconciliation went nothing like that.


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## EI

IIJokerII said:


> More like dump, Recon is for damaged couples with one too timid and broken to move on with the other too scared yet content to destabilize their lifestyle. One pays the price of eternal memory of the pain while the other suffers the inflicted pain of the BS, but only for a time.
> 
> Yes, I am being bitter and after some sleep I'll probably have a change of opinion......maybe.





As'laDain said:


> my reconciliation went nothing like that.



Neither did ours. We're 2 1/2 years into our "new marriage," the happier, healthier version of our marriage.

This is at our vow renewal, on our 30th wedding anniversary, in June:




















This is from our trip to the beach, in September, that B1 and I took without "the kids." 










This is from our oldest son's wedding last month:










And, finally, these were taken last weekend when B1 and I, along with our children, son-in-law, daughter-in-law, and grandson put up the Christmas tree and all the trimmings, had a big Sunday dinner, and took family pictures. 



















We're not timid, broken, scared, or bitter, at least not anymore. And, we're not merely surviving. We're thriving! Was reconciliation easy? No. Was it worth it? Every single moment! We consider our "new" marriage to be both a miracle and blessing!

Merry Christmas, everyone! 

Love B1 & EI


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## NoChoice

For all those who say that R is a waste of time and will never really work...Please reference the above illustrated example. Congrats to you two.


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## EI

NoChoice said:


> For all those who say that R is a waste of time and will never really work...Please reference the above illustrated example. Congrats to you two.


Thank you, NoChoice!


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## farsidejunky

EI:

I am glad you have decided to stick around and be an example of what those in reconciliation should strive for.


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## MattMatt

We made the right decisions, in the end.


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## EI

farsidejunky said:


> EI:
> 
> I am glad you have decided to stick around and be an example of what those in reconciliation should strive for.


Thank you for your kind words, farside, but these days, I just like to "visit" from time to time. As so many of you know, TAM can be both a blessing and a curse. While it would be nice to win over all of TAMland, (I'm sure you all know exactly what I mean by that) it's so much greater that B1 and I win over ourselves, one another, our marriage, and our family. 

I have a tendency to pour myself into things. B1 and I have both poured our heart, mind, and soul into rebuilding our marriage these last 2 1/2 years. The amount of time, energy, and emotional reserve that I was spending on TAM trying to convince others to believe in us, and in the integrity of our reconciliation, was time that was actually better spent focusing on becoming someone who could truly believe in herself, again. I was spending so much time trying to convince others to believe in me, and in our marriage, that I almost lost sight of the fact that what matters more than anything else, is that B1, our children, our family, and our friends believe in me. Perhaps, even more important than that, is that, today, I can honestly say that I believe in myself, again. And, B1 and I believe in "us." 

He and I are so grateful for the insight and direction that we received from so many good people on TAM in those early days, weeks, and months after we arrived here. We wouldn't be where we are today had we not found our way here first. We've done our best to try to pay it forward. But, now, we need to focus on our life as it is today. We need to live in the present. Our life now has become like a "present," it's a beautiful gift. 

I can't see B1 posting on TAM again. It can be a very painful place for someone who has been betrayed. I still check in, but I don't "need" TAM in the same way that I used to. And, somehow, I think that's probably a very good thing!


----------



## jim123

NoChoice said:


> For all those who say that R is a waste of time and will never really work...Please reference the above illustrated example. Congrats to you two.


Do not forget the amount of effort and love that it took.

You need honesty with yourself then your spouse.

You need commitment and hard work. 

This did not just happen 

Kudo's to two great people that have a marriage most people dream about.


----------



## old timer

So glad to see things are going well for y'all, EI. 

The ex and I are going through a reconciliation of sorts, albeit with our separate lives. With six kids and eight grands, its for the best. 

We had Christmas last year at her house, just did Thanksgiving there and this Christmas is happening there as well. We've had some very civil convos about some business interests we still semi-share.

Reconciliation can mean different things.


----------



## oneMOreguy

EI...you have such a wonderful looking family.....truly


----------



## larry.gray

From another member who's drifting away from TAM because I don't need it anymore either:

Merry Christmas, enjoy your family and best wishes for a new year.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By EI
> We're not timid, broken, scared, or bitter, at least not anymore. And, we're not merely surviving. We're thriving! Was reconciliation easy? No. Was it worth it? Every single moment! We consider our "new" marriage to be both a miracle and blessing!
> 
> Merry Christmas, everyone!
> 
> Love B1 & EI


Your statement above and you and B1’s posts on this forum prove that R is not only possible but can produce relationship that can be better in many ways.

Your family PICTURES are further proof of God’s blessings on your family. You do not get your family to take group pictures with bitterness in the family; there is a lot of healing in those smiles! Darn good looking bunch to boot!

EI and B1 can be a lot of help to those that really want R and want help! Just read their previous posts.


----------



## As'laDain

reconciliation is not a rug sweep. i think thats the biggest problem people have, they think its synonymous with rug sweeping. 

a reconciliation that really works is not a rug sweep. you have to acknowledge where you did wrong. and that goes with both spouses. you have to recognize and acknowledge where you messed up. and you have to fix it. 

and you have to move past it. you have to find a way to leave the past in the past. and that means you have to find ways to trust that the past will stay in the past. this requires a lot of work. 

both people have to become someone new. and not only that, they have to be proud of who they have become. so, they have to become someone they can be proud of. 

OF COURSE this is not easy. it was never suppose to be easy. but its worth it. 

the only thing required is the desire of both partners to get there. sometimes one partner is stronger than the other, but as long as both partners desire it, its entirely possible. 

and when it happens, its beautiful.


----------



## vellocet

EI said:


> Thank you for your kind words, farside, but these days, I just like to "visit" from time to time. As so many of you know, TAM can be both a blessing and a curse. While it would be nice to win over all of TAMland, (I'm sure you all know exactly what I mean by that)


Yup, know exactly what you mean by that.


----------



## Wolf1974

NoChoice said:


> For all those who say that R is a waste of time and will never really work...Please reference the above illustrated example. Congrats to you two.


It would never work for me. Glad it works for some


----------



## EI

old timer said:


> So glad to see things are going well for y'all, EI.
> 
> The ex and I are going through a reconciliation of sorts, albeit with our separate lives. With six kids and eight grands, its for the best.
> 
> We had Christmas last year at her house, just did Thanksgiving there and this Christmas is happening there as well. We've had some very civil convos about some business interests we still semi-share.
> 
> Reconciliation can mean different things.



It's great to hear from you, OT. And, yes, I agree that reconciliation can mean different things. First and foremost, reconciliation should begin with oneself. We need to come to terms with who we truly are; the good, the bad, and everything in between, whether we're BS's or WS's. We should always strive towards achieving the true self-awareness that is needed if we're to become the best possible version of ourselves. Then, if it applies, towards forgiving ourselves for our personal failures. Doing that kind of internal work gives each of us an opportunity for greater success in all of our relationships, current and future. Even when a marriage isn't reconciled, our relationship(s) (with everyone in our lives) going forward can still be healthier and more meaningful when we work on ourselves first. The truth is, the only person we truly have any control over is ourself. 

I'm glad to hear that you and the former Mrs. OT are in a happier place than you were the last time you were here.


----------



## Rookie4

Reconciliation is like an old John Deere tractor....it works....until it doesn't. I hope that EI and B1 can come back here is 2, 4, 6 years and report the same feelings. Then, perhaps, I will believe it is possible, within the context of the same marriage, with the same partners. Too often , I see that it becomes a slapped together, lesser of two evils situation, where both parties settle for less than what they truly want.
Hard and fast rules do not apply to any of this, it is far too individual and subjective to try to cover it with one blanket.
Personally, my hope is tha everybody does the best that they can. I think that's about all you can expect.


----------



## sidney2718

Rookie4 said:


> Reconciliation is like an old John Deere tractor....it works....until it doesn't. I hope that EI and B1 can come back here is 2, 4, 6 years and report the same feelings. Then, perhaps, I will believe it is possible, within the context of the same marriage, with the same partners. Too often , I see that it becomes a slapped together, lesser of two evils situation, where both parties settle for less than what they truly want.
> Hard and fast rules do not apply to any of this, it is far too individual and subjective to try to cover it with one blanket.
> Personally, my hope is tha everybody does the best that they can. I think that's about all you can expect.


Rookie, I'm with you. EI and B1 are examples of what can be done with love and trust. Rebuilding the trust is, I think, the hardest part.

I do know, from my year or so on TAM, that EI in particular has been very very helpful in many threads, spreading her view that every case is different and treating many of them as if they were identical often produces a bad result.

As hard as it is, divorce is easy. Reconciliation is hard, very hard.


----------



## Rookie4

sidney2718 said:


> Rookie, I'm with you. EI and B1 are examples of what can be done with love and trust. Rebuilding the trust is, I think, the hardest part.
> 
> I do know, from my year or so on TAM, that EI in particular has been very very helpful in many threads, spreading her view that every case is different and treating many of them as if they were identical often produces a bad result.
> 
> As hard as it is, divorce is easy. Reconciliation is hard, very hard.


I don't think you can qualify or quantify either one as either "easier" or "harder", than the other. Each can be both or neither, but usually require a different methodology and mindset.


----------



## jim123

EI said:


> It's great to hear from you, OT. And, yes, I agree that reconciliation can mean different things. First and foremost, reconciliation should begin with oneself. We need to come to terms with who we truly are; the good, the bad, and everything in between, whether we're BS's or WS's. We should always strive towards achieving the true self-awareness that is needed if we're to become the best possible version of ourselves. Then, if it applies, towards forgiving ourselves for our personal failures. Doing that kind of internal work gives each of us an opportunity for greater success in all of our relationships, current and future. Even when a marriage isn't reconciled, our relationship(s) (with everyone in our lives) going forward can still be healthier and more meaningful when we work on ourselves first. The truth is, the only person we truly have any control over is ourself.
> 
> I'm glad to hear that you and the former Mrs. OT are in a happier place than you were the last time you were here.


Pure gold. Someone should copy this to White Rose thread.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Rookie
> *Reconciliation* is like an old John Deere tractor....it works....until it doesn't. I hope that EI and B1 can come back here is 2, 4, 6 years and report the *same feelings*. *Then, perhaps, I will believe* it is possible, within the context of the same marriage, with the same partners. Too often , I see that it becomes a slapped together, *lesser of two evils situation, where both parties settle for less* than what they truly want.
> Hard and fast rules do not apply to any of this, it is far too individual and subjective to try to cover it with one blanket.
> Personally, my hope is that everybody does the best that they can. I think that's about all you can expect.


Rookie, you have hoped for a response from EI and B1 and that will be very revealing. After all, some professionals say that the reconciliation takes 5 years to see if it is really real. I will say this about EI and B1; they have the best start of any R I have read on TAM. I think that EI is the real deal and B1 is nothing short of being an OUTSTANDING MAN!!





> By Rookie
> Too often , I see that it becomes a slapped together,* lesser of two evils situation, where both parties settle for less *than what they truly want.


Rookie, I can give you my situation that has over 20 years of R. We did not slap ourselves together but I took four years of watching her ACTIONS before I remarried her. I do not know exactly what you mean by “the lesser of two evils”. 

As for your statement of “settle for less than what they truly want”, I can say this; in my observation of life and marriage I see that everyone settles for less as the get older. *No one that I know is going to have the excitement or the same feelings after 20 years that they did in the first 5 years of R or the first 5m years of a marriage or relationship.*. I doubt very seriously that you and your GF are going to have the same feelings that you do now during your honeymoon years. In fact I would be willing to bet that you will settle for less than what you truly want in 10-20 years from now.

Here is what can happen in 10-20 years:

1	The honeymoon feelings are reduced
2	You have to settle for less in some areas whether you want to or not
3	Successful Reconciliation means that you still want the best for your mate
4	Reconciliation means that your can have a good life
5	Reconciliation means that you accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative
6	You realize that that no other mate is going to share some special times in life like your wife/husband ( In some cases that have a 20-30 year marriage)
7	You realize that your best chance at a full life can be with your reconciled mate
8	You realize that forgiveness is a great gift and that it benefits the forgiver as much or more than the forgiven.
9	With successful R you see that your relationship with your children are very fulfilling
10	The higher the degree that you forgive the more that you believe that you have been forgiven for your own wrongs you have done. That is very freeing of some fears.

The above are some of the realities of my R.






> Hard and fast rules do not apply to any of this, it is far too individual and subjective to try to cover it with one blanket


.

You are right Rookie; trying to cover such complex issues with a blanket does not apply to all. Since you brought up the subject about reconciliation and feelings for the many years after R, I thought that I would give you my reality. My reality works for me and I know that it does not fit everyone. It seems that you are skeptical of R and that R can be like an old John Deer and stop working. My R has been working for 26 years so *how long does it take for you to believe that it is possible?*


You also seem to think that settling for less is the lesser of two evils.* Settling for less in some areas and gaining in other areas is how R works for me*. Rookie, in 10-20 years you will have settled for less in some areas if you have not already IMO.

Finally, you do not believe that EI and B1 will have the same feelings in 6 years from now. I tend to agree with you but that does not mean that R does not work nor does it mean that EI and B1 will not be successful. Feelings alone do not make for a successful relationship. *Feelings cannot be trusted to produce long term success; long term success involves enduring suffering, kindness, not seeking to only please self, faith in goodness, patience, understanding, and commitment. Those things are the bases for love and success*. When you have those then feelings will be present but feelings alone will not see you through long term. Feelings alone are often the reason that you have infidelity.

To think and expect that feelings are going to be as intense in 8-10-20 years after R is to set yourself up or a huge disappointment. *You will have to settle for less intense feeling as the years go by or you will be very dissatisfied.*


----------



## Kresaera

Reconciliation to me means:

*Long heartfelt talks over wine
*Gentle Love making for hours
*Sometimes screaming and crying
*Holding each other and assuring things will be okay
*Hoping and Praying for the best


----------



## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> Rookie, you have hoped for a response from EI and B1 and that will be very revealing. After all, some professionals say that the reconciliation takes 5 years to see if it is really real. I will say this about EI and B1; they have the best start of any R I have read on TAM. I think that EI is the real deal and B1 is nothing short of being an OUTSTANDING MAN!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rookie, I can give you my situation that has over 20 years of R. We did not slap ourselves together but I took four years of watching her ACTIONS before I remarried her. I do not know exactly what you mean by “the lesser of two evils”.
> 
> As for your statement of “settle for less than what they truly want”, I can say this; in my observation of life and marriage I see that everyone settles for less as the get older. *No one that I know is going to have the excitement or the same feelings after 20 years that they did in the first 5 years of R or the first 5m years of a marriage or relationship.*. I doubt very seriously that you and your GF are going to have the same feelings that you do now during your honeymoon years. In fact I would be willing to bet that you will settle for less than what you truly want in 10-20 years from now.
> 
> Here is what can happen in 10-20 years:
> 
> 1	The honeymoon feelings are reduced
> 2	You have to settle for less in some areas whether you want to or not
> 3	Successful Reconciliation means that you still want the best for your mate
> 4	Reconciliation means that your can have a good life
> 5	Reconciliation means that you accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative
> 6	You realize that that no other mate is going to share some special times in life like your wife/husband ( In some cases that have a 20-30 year marriage)
> 7	You realize that your best chance at a full life can be with your reconciled mate
> 8	You realize that forgiveness is a great gift and that it benefits the forgiver as much or more than the forgiven.
> 9	With successful R you see that your relationship with your children are very fulfilling
> 10	The higher the degree that you forgive the more that you believe that you have been forgiven for your own wrongs you have done. That is very freeing of some fears.
> 
> The above are some of the realities of my R.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> You are right Rookie; trying to cover such complex issues with a blanket does not apply to all. Since you brought up the subject about reconciliation and feelings for the many years after R, I thought that I would give you my reality. My reality works for me and I know that it does not fit everyone. It seems that you are skeptical of R and that R can be like an old John Deer and stop working. My R has been working for 26 years so *how long does it take for you to believe that it is possible?*
> 
> 
> You also seem to think that settling for less is the lesser of two evils.* Settling for less in some areas and gaining in other areas is how R works for me*. Rookie, in 10-20 years you will have settled for less in some areas if you have not already IMO.
> 
> Finally, you do not believe that EI and B1 will have the same feelings in 6 years from now. I tend to agree with you but that does not mean that R does not work nor does it mean that EI and B1 will not be successful. Feelings alone do not make for a successful relationship. *Feelings cannot be trusted to produce long term success; long term success involves enduring suffering, kindness, not seeking to only please self, faith in goodness, patience, understanding, and commitment. Those things are the bases for love and success*. When you have those then feelings will be present but feelings alone will not see you through long term. Feelings alone are often the reason that you have infidelity.
> 
> To think and expect that feelings are going to be as intense in 8-10-20 years after R is to set yourself up or a huge disappointment. *You will have to settle for less intense feeling as the years go by or you will be very dissatisfied.*


Blunt, If I was the kind of person that settled for less, I would not be the man I am , nor in the position I am , today. I don't believe you have to settle for anything less than what you want or need. But you know your situation best. As to EI and B1, I think that they are wonderful people, and don't require any response at all. My comment was a casual observation on reconciliation in general, but using their case as an example of the time element of it (reconciliation). Nothing more than that.


----------



## bfree

Mr Blunt said:


> Rookie, you have hoped for a response from EI and B1 and that will be very revealing. After all, some professionals say that the reconciliation takes 5 years to see if it is really real. I will say this about EI and B1; they have the best start of any R I have read on TAM. I think that EI is the real deal and B1 is nothing short of being an OUTSTANDING MAN!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rookie, I can give you my situation that has over 20 years of R. We did not slap ourselves together but I took four years of watching her ACTIONS before I remarried her. I do not know exactly what you mean by “the lesser of two evils”.
> 
> As for your statement of “settle for less than what they truly want”, I can say this; in my observation of life and marriage I see that everyone settles for less as the get older. *No one that I know is going to have the excitement or the same feelings after 20 years that they did in the first 5 years of R or the first 5m years of a marriage or relationship.*. I doubt very seriously that you and your GF are going to have the same feelings that you do now during your honeymoon years. In fact I would be willing to bet that you will settle for less than what you truly want in 10-20 years from now.
> 
> Here is what can happen in 10-20 years:
> 
> 1The honeymoon feelings are reduced
> 2You have to settle for less in some areas whether you want to or not
> 3Successful Reconciliation means that you still want the best for your mate
> 4Reconciliation means that your can have a good life
> 5Reconciliation means that you accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative
> 6You realize that that no other mate is going to share some special times in life like your wife/husband ( In some cases that have a 20-30 year marriage)
> 7You realize that your best chance at a full life can be with your reconciled mate
> 8You realize that forgiveness is a great gift and that it benefits the forgiver as much or more than the forgiven.
> 9With successful R you see that your relationship with your children are very fulfilling
> 10The higher the degree that you forgive the more that you believe that you have been forgiven for your own wrongs you have done. That is very freeing of some fears.
> 
> The above are some of the realities of my R.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> You are right Rookie; trying to cover such complex issues with a blanket does not apply to all. Since you brought up the subject about reconciliation and feelings for the many years after R, I thought that I would give you my reality. My reality works for me and I know that it does not fit everyone. It seems that you are skeptical of R and that R can be like an old John Deer and stop working. My R has been working for 26 years so *how long does it take for you to believe that it is possible?*
> 
> 
> You also seem to think that settling for less is the lesser of two evils.* Settling for less in some areas and gaining in other areas is how R works for me*. Rookie, in 10-20 years you will have settled for less in some areas if you have not already IMO.
> 
> Finally, you do not believe that EI and B1 will have the same feelings in 6 years from now. I tend to agree with you but that does not mean that R does not work nor does it mean that EI and B1 will not be successful. Feelings alone do not make for a successful relationship. *Feelings cannot be trusted to produce long term success; long term success involves enduring suffering, kindness, not seeking to only please self, faith in goodness, patience, understanding, and commitment. Those things are the bases for love and success*. When you have those then feelings will be present but feelings alone will not see you through long term. Feelings alone are often the reason that you have infidelity.
> 
> To think and expect that feelings are going to be as intense in 8-10-20 years after R is to set yourself up or a huge disappointment. *You will have to settle for less intense feeling as the years go by or you will be very dissatisfied.*


This should be a sticky.

All I'll add is that in my own marriage while the "butterflies" might fade to an extent as the relationship progresses those infatuation feelings are replaced with a deeper more spiritual connection that I personally find more fulfilling.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> This should be a sticky.
> 
> All I'll add is that in my own marriage while the "butterflies" might fade to an extent as the relationship progresses those infatuation feelings are replaced with a deeper more spiritual connection that I personally find more fulfilling.


The trick is, of course, having BOTH. The "spiritual' connection is great,.....for those people who want or need it, but the "WOW" factor is extremely important, as well. At least for me it is. I prefer a "soulmate" who is also a freak between the sheets. So tell me why I should settle for anything less?


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> The trick is, of course, having BOTH. The "spiritual' connection is great,.....for those people who want or need it, but the "WOW" factor is extremely important, as well. At least for me it is. I prefer a "soulmate" who is also a freak between the sheets. So tell me why I should settle for anything less?


What exactly is meant by the "WOW" factor? If you're talking about keeping things fresh and interesting then I agree. I actively look for ways to keep things interesting and fun in the marriage. If you are referring to the infatuation feelings in a relationship then I question whether it's possible to maintain those at the same level as they are when everything is new. Those feelings are fed by dopamine and that level of dopamine cannot be maintained in the human brain without permanent damage. I think this falls into the category that Mr Blunt is talking about when he says that sometimes you have to settle if you want to keep a relationship long term.


----------



## As'laDain

that feeling of limerance can be regained in a long term relationship. 
even after infidelity. 
i now this from experience. no need to settle. i wasn't about to settle for a less than fulfilling relationship, sex life and romance included. i just didnt believe i had to leave my wife in order to get it. but i did have to change the way i handled things in order to get it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Rookie, what is your plan for something medical arising that causes her to no longer be a freak between the sheets?

Not saying that's going to happen, but what would be your response if it did?


----------



## jim123

Rookie4 said:


> Reconciliation is like an old John Deere tractor....it works....until it doesn't. I hope that EI and B1 can come back here is 2, 4, 6 years and report the same feelings. Then, perhaps, I will believe it is possible, within the context of the same marriage, with the same partners. Too often , I see that it becomes a slapped together, lesser of two evils situation, where both parties settle for less than what they truly want.
> Hard and fast rules do not apply to any of this, it is far too individual and subjective to try to cover it with one blanket.
> Personally, my hope is tha everybody does the best that they can. I think that's about all you can expect.


Don't bet against these two. They are very special.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Rookie
> Blunt, If I was the kind of person that settled for less, I would not be the man I am , nor in the position I am , today.
> *I don't believe you have to settle for anything less than what you want or need.*


*Rookie, you have already settled for less.* I am sure that you did not want your marriage to sweetie to wind up with her infidelity. She did not do what you wanted and had an affair and you had to settle for less than you wanted. Maybe your ex-wife, GF, and your children all get together a lot and have holidays together but I would be surprised if you have not had to settle for less with your family get togethers. Sharing the memories and joys of your youth with your mate is bonding. You will not be able to do that with your GF; hence, you have settled for less in one bonding part of relationships even though you may not have thought of that.

You now want your wife to be happy with the current situation but she is not; you had to settle for less. I compliment you for trying to help your wife and believe you that it is out of your caring for her.







> By Rookie
> The trick is, of course, having BOTH. The "spiritual' connection is great, for those people who want or need it, but the "WOW" factor is extremely important, as well. At least for me it is.* I prefer a "soulmate" who is also a freak between the sheets*. So tell me why I should settle for anything less?


Rookie, you may have a GF that is “freaky between the sheets” now but what about 5-10-20 years from now? Are you expecting us to believe that you and your GF are going to be as “freaky” in the years to come as you are now? *You are counting on your new relationship with a new woman and your feelings and freaky sex to be as great as they are now in the next 10-20 years? *

Feelings and sex alone will not be enough to sustain a long term successful marriage. There is a lot more to a successful marriage/relationships than freaky sex.

Rookie, in 10-20 years from now you are going to be around half as physical that you are now. You may not even keep up with your “freaky” GF, even if she remains freaky, when you are older. Rookie, you post some very good posts sometimes but if you maintain that you are not going to settle for less; well then I am not going to try and convince you to the contrary but I do not buy your position. *You settled for less in your first marriage of 20 years and you will settle for less in the next 20 years.*

My posts were to convey what I have realized in the last 40+ years of marriage and my 20+ years of successful R. Maybe some others can get some benefit from my actual experiences over these many years.

*I have settled for less in a few areas but have improved in others and my life is good and I have very close family relationships with all my family*.


----------



## Rookie4

Blossom Leigh said:


> Rookie, what is your plan for something medical arising that causes her to no longer be a freak between the sheets?
> 
> Not saying that's going to happen, but what would be your response if it did?


Huh? What? You mean like the girl in Jaws who gets the bottom half bitten off by a great white shark? What do you mean?


----------



## Rookie4

jim123 said:


> Don't bet against these two. They are very special.


Never said they weren't.


----------



## Rookie4

Mr Blunt said:


> *Rookie, you have already settled for less.* I am sure that you did not want your marriage to sweetie to wind up with her infidelity. She did not do what you wanted and had an affair and you had to settle for less than you wanted. Maybe your ex-wife, GF, and your children all get together a lot and have holidays together but I would be surprised if you have not had to settle for less with your family get togethers. Sharing the memories and joys of your youth with your mate is bonding. You will not be able to do that with your GF; hence, you have settled for less in one bonding part of relationships even though you may not have thought of that.
> 
> You now want your wife to be happy with the current situation but she is not; you had to settle for less. I compliment you for trying to help your wife and believe you that it is out of your caring for her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rookie, you may have a GF that is “freaky between the sheets” now but what about 5-10-20 years from now? Are you expecting us to believe that you and your GF are going to be as “freaky” in the years to come as you are now? *You are counting on your new relationship with a new woman and your feelings and freaky sex to be as great as they are now in the next 10-20 years? *
> 
> Feelings and sex alone will not be enough to sustain a long term successful marriage. There is a lot more to a successful marriage/relationships than freaky sex.
> 
> Rookie, in 10-20 years from now you are going to be around half as physical that you are now. You may not even keep up with your “freaky” GF, even if she remains freaky, when you are older. Rookie, you post some very good posts sometimes but if you maintain that you are not going to settle for less; well then I am not going to try and convince you to the contrary but I do not buy your position. *You settled for less in your first marriage of 20 years and you will settle for less in the next 20 years.*
> 
> My posts were to convey what I have realized in the last 40+ years of marriage and my 20+ years of successful R. Maybe some others can get some benefit from my actual experiences over these many years.
> 
> *I have settled for less in a few areas but have improved in others and my life is good and I have very close family relationships with all my family*.


Blunt, if the dynamics of my relationship change, then I change my relationship to meet the new reality. I don't try to scab new feelings onto an old marriage. That's what I tried, but it didn't work. I am a dirty middle aged man and will be a dirty old man and am quite happy with that. I don't know where you get this idea that Change = settling. Settling means accepting....... less, change means accepting .......new. My relationship with my GF is far, far , better than my marriage ever was. I am infinitely more in love than I was with Sweetie. Some people just cannot fathom the idea that change can be a vast improvement. Knowing what I know now, I should have divorced Sweetie before her affair. The old Sweetie was a huge beeotch.


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## Rookie4

Blunt, with all due respect, you seem to think you are some kind of elder statesman on TAM. You really need to get out and face the new reality. Older people are having sex and lots of it, they are having romance and lots of that, as well. Look at all of the senior dating sites and clubs . You don't have to settle for anything , you don't want to.
A nuclear family isn't the only type of family and may not even be the best type of family. Believe it or not, my relationships with friends and family have dramatically improved, and our family get-togethers are much more joyous than they were when Sweetie and I were married, even pre-affair. Accepting and encouraging change is the key.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Rookie4 said:


> Huh? What? You mean like the girl in Jaws who gets the bottom half bitten off by a great white shark? What do you mean?


:rofl:

Now, that made me laugh.... No silly, like cancers that would affect her female organs, accidents that cause paralysis, advanced stages of diabetes, etc. If you were faced with that in a LTR, what would you do with the relationship? Would you stay or end it?


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## As'laDain

im not sure what the issue is with this "settling" nonsense. you dont have to settle, ever. even if you stay married to someone who cheats on you, you dont have to settle. 

all you have to do is clearly communicate what you expect out of the relationship. from what i have seen, most of the time people arent asking for anything more than what both people want. the problem is not one of ability or expectations, its one of faith. people get divorced because they believe their spouse cannot meet their needs, or that they cannot meet their spouses needs. or, their spouse flat out refuses to and would rather divorce. 

if my wife and i stop being freaky between the sheets, it will be because we both dont need it anymore. and thats fine. but if one of us does, we will continue to be freaks for each other. and im not going to expect from my wife anything more than she can deliver. so if something medical does happen to our sex life(again) ill approach it the same way i did when i was taking a full gram of lithium and verapamil every day. 

medications stop me from being able to get it up? well, lets go get some toys and have fun anyway. forget feelings sorry for myself, thats just pointless.


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## Blossom Leigh

Yea, this is where I wonder where Rookie's ethical fortitude falls in relationships.... If the love of your life either becomes emotionally unavailable or physically unavailable even through no fault of their own, would you stick around?


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## As'laDain

i would. but that is what i want marriage to be. key words though "through no fault of their own". if it is their fault, they had better be willing to correct it. 

hell, even if its not their fault, they still better be willing to do what they can.


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## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> i would. but that is what i want marriage to be. key words though "through no fault of their own". if it is their fault, they had better be willing to correct it.
> 
> hell, even if its not their fault, they still better be willing to do what they can.


Agreed...

But even with that effort it may not be at a total freak between the sheets anymore so where would have leave Rookie?

I personally want to know that my mate for life has the ethical relational fortitude to have my back as my life ebb and flows. We ALL go through various moments of emotional and physical unavailability. I want to know my mate can stick it out.


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## Rookie4

Blossom Leigh said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Now, that made me laugh.... No silly, like cancers that would affect her female organs, accidents that cause paralysis, advanced stages of diabetes, etc. If you were faced with that in a LTR, what would you do with the relationship? Would you stay or end it?


If anything like this happened, I'd probably take her to the Vet and have her put down.


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## Blossom Leigh

Rookie4 said:


> If anything like this happened, I'd probably take her to the Vet and have her put down.


LOL... you are such a putz, vulnerability/transparency dodger.. I swear:rofl:


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## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> If anything like this happened, I'd probably take her to the Vet and have her put down.


Lmao....thanks I needed that!


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## Rookie4

seriously, why is it that people make such huge assumptions about posters? Because I will not settle for a sub-par sex life , means that I don't want emotional stability ? Or, If my GF gets cancer, does that mean I'm going to look for a replacement? Of course not! What it means is that I'm not going to settle for a relationship based on accepting less. The problem here is that too many posters are afraid to explore new ideas, and new mindsets. The first casualty of old age is not hardening of the arteries but hardening of the mind.
My Grandmaw and Grandpaw played the two-backed game well into their 80"s, and at 75 got their first hot-tub. They took trips, had adventures, lived life to the max. I hope (and expect) to do the same thing.


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## Blossom Leigh

Rookie4 said:


> seriously, why is it that people make such huge assumptions about posters? Because I will not settle for a sub-par sex life , means that I don't want emotional stability ? Or, If my GF gets cancer, does that mean I'm going to look for a replacement? Of course not! What it means is that I'm not going to settle for a relationship based on accepting less. The problem here is that too many posters are afraid to explore new ideas, and new mindsets. The first casualty of old age is not hardening of the arteries but hardening of the mind.
> My Grandmaw and Grandpaw played the two-backed game well into their 80"s, and at 75 got their first hot-tub. They took trips, had adventures, lived life to the max. I hope (and expect) to do the same thing.




Good!!! 

Because there ARE those people out there that would do that. Glad you aren't one of them :smthumbup:


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## Rookie4

The way I look at it, I COULD spend the next several years getting over my ex wife's affair, reconciling our marriage and trying to rebuild our old family life. So what happens next? We go to Florida, to an old folks home , and veg-out, watch TV and eat our oatmeal , until we die. Secure in the knowledge that we have the best that can be expected? F*CK THAT!!!


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## As'laDain

Rookie4 said:


> The way I look at it, I COULD spend the next several years getting over my ex wife's affair, reconciling our marriage and trying to rebuild our old family life. So what happens next? We go to Florida, to an old folks home , and veg-out, watch TV and eat our oatmeal , until we die. Secure in the knowledge that we have the best that can be expected? F*CK THAT!!!


if that is how you would view a reconciliation, then of course i would never suggest you attempt one. your expectations would make it happen. 

as you say, F that nonsense.


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## Blossom Leigh

Yea... I am not a TV vegger... ugh


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## bfree

You're a good man rookie!


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## convert

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea... I am not a TV vegger... ugh


Blossom, what is a TV vegger?

is it a Transvestite vegetarian?

I am glad you are not one of those, it is not how I pictured you


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## Blossom Leigh

LOL.... I just don't like prolonged time in front of the TV.. I get RESTLESS... Unless I'm studying the voices on the Voice, since I am a singer, then I can sit almost perfectly still, or studying horsemanship on my DVD's, but it's still DOING since I am studying... I cannot disconnect in a show, it's got to be a study for me or either I've got to be up doing something or going somewhere.


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## Mr Blunt

> *BY Rookie*
> Blunt, with all due respect, you seem to think you are some kind of elder statesman on TAM. You really need to get out and face the new reality. Older people are having sex and lots of it; they are having romance and lots of that, as well. Look at all of the senior dating sites and clubs . You don't have to settle for anything , you don't want to


.

Rookie, what is with you bringing up your opinion that I think that I am some kind of elder statesman? Is that your diversion from the points that I brought up? The only one that has ever brought up that I think that I am an elder statesman is you. No one has talked about that so let’s get away from the diversion and back to the issues.




> By Rookie
> I don't know where you get this idea that Change = settling. Settling means accepting....... less, change means accepting .......new.


Life is made up of lots of changes and some are not as you would like them and some you cannot change. Some of the options are to settle/accept the changes and make the best of the rest. That is what I am talking about and if you do not agree that does not change the facts of that reality.





> You really need to get out and face the new reality. Older people are having sex and lots of it, they are having romance and lots of that, as well.


You seem to think you know that I need to face a new reality. Rookie, I know that older people have sex and romance, maybe even more than you do, so why bring up an issue that we agree upon? You know why I know that? It is because I am one of those “Older people” that have sex and romance. Rookie, you do not know what I need to do.


Now to get back to another point that my post mentioned. Feelings and sex are great when regulated correctly but they alone are not enough to sustain a long term satisfactory relationship and a R. *Besides sex and feeling you need enduring suffering, kindness, not seeking to only please yourself, faith in goodness, patience, understanding, and commitment*. Rookie called this the “spiritual connection” but stated that he preferred a "soulmate" who is also a "freak between the sheets". 

I do not know if Rookie disregards the “Spiritual connection” altogether or just puts it in second place. I will say this;* the spiritual connection is a whole lot better insurance against betrayal infidelity than making freak sex your number one priority in a relationship*.


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## Rookie4

First off, Blunt, you are constantly reminding posters of the longevity of your marriage and R, and use it as a debating weapon to belittle others opinions. As if longevity is a reward in and of itself. In point of fact, during my stay here on TAM, you have frequently reminded me of how short term was my reconciliation compared to yours. So don't even go there. 
As far as spirituality, I believe that it is much like the old joke about "one man's tuna, is another man's catfood". Totally subjective and individual. Some persons believe in "soulmates" other do not.
As far as "regulating" sex, that is too funny . Personally, I very much prefer "unregulated " sex.
I really don't have anything against your methodology. If you prefer a controlled, regulated, spiritual, patient, and staid existence, the best of luck to you. Speaking for myself, I want the Bat sh*t crazy life.


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## Mr Blunt

> By Rookie
> First off, Blunt, you are constantly reminding posters of the longevity of your marriage and R, and use it as a debating weapon to belittle others opinions. As if longevity is a reward in and of itself. In point of fact, during my stay here on TAM, you have frequently reminded me of how short term was my reconciliation compared to yours. So don't even go there.


My longevity must bother you. Since you accused me of using my longevity to “belittle other opinions” how about you post some of those post by me that belittled others? If you find some and post them I will apologize. On the other hand if you cannot find any that tells me that you are affected by my longevity and are just hurling accusations about me because I will not agree with you on certain issues.

Have I mentioned my longevity and success? YES. You make statements about R and about R in future years but you have no years of R. Rookie, your really do not have a lot of credibility in longevity in R because your have never been there. Do not take that as a belittling of you it is just a fact. Naturally I am going to mentioned longevity and success when you bring up the subject. I do not remember belittling you or others but if I have I will make amends.

Rookie, you started this topic with your statement about how you do not believe that EI and B1 will have the same feelings in their future R. You bring up a subject about future R and you make it clear that you do not believe they will have the same feelings. You even used the analogy that R is like and old John Deer tractor that *eventually does not work*. I am not belittling you I am just repeating your post on this issue below



> *By Rookie*
> Reconciliation is like an old John Deere tractor....it works....until it doesn't. I hope that EI and B1 can come back here is 2, 4, 6 years and report the same feelings. Then, perhaps, I will believe it is possible



Since you brought up belittling what do you call your words below?




> *By Rookie*
> You really need to get out and *face the new reality*. Older people are having sex and lots of it; they are having romance and lots of that, as well.
> 
> Too often, I see that it becomes a *slapped together, lesser of two evils situation*, where both parties settle for less than what they truly want.
> 
> Rookie calling my Reconciliation and marriage as
> *“Staid” (boring, or old-fashioned)*
> and
> * “Patient” (suffering without becoming annoyed*)
> 
> The first casualty of old age is not hardening of the arteries but *hardening of the mind*



Those are just a few of the ones you have said recently. Are you accusing me of belittling others because you do?” Does the saying of, “As a man thinketh so is he”, apply to you?




> By Rookie
> *As far as spirituality*, I believe that it is much like the old joke about "one man's tuna, is another man's *catfood"*. Totally subjective and individual. Some persons believe in "soulmates" other do not.
> 
> As far as "regulating" sex, that is too funny . Personally, I very much prefer "unregulated " sex.
> 
> I really don't have anything against your methodology. If you prefer a controlled, regulated, spiritual, patient, and staid existence, the best of luck to you. Speaking for myself, I want the Bat sh*t crazy life.


Ok Rookie so you have concluded that the “spiritual connection” that I mention in my previous posts is your “catfood”. My posts from now on about the “spiritual connection” will not be for you but to maybe someone that can use them in their R. 

This thread is about reconciliation and I am going to share what has worked for me long term. Since you have belittled my posts about the spiritual connection as “catfood” then *perhaps you will stop commenting on this part of my posts. That will make you and me both happy!*

*In my long term successful reconciliation I have found the below to be true:*


Feelings and sex alone cannot be trusted to produce long term success; long term success involves enduring suffering, kindness, not seeking to only please self, faith in goodness, patience, understanding, and commitment. Those things are the bases for love and success. When you have those then feelings will be present but feelings alone will not see you through long term. Feelings alone are often the reason that you have infidelity.

Almost everyone believes that feelings and sex are very important and so do I. However, I read a lot of betrayal stories on “Coping with Infidelity” that were based on feelings and inappropriate sex

As for forgiveness:
You realize that forgiveness is a great gift and that it benefits the forgiver as much or more than the forgiven.

The higher the degree that you forgive the more that you believe that you have been forgiven for your own wrongs you have done. That is very freeing of some fears.

The above are some of the realities of my R.


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## bfree

Ok boys, let's not bring down the best thread on TAM.


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## As'laDain

I think I may have an odd view of reconciliation. Most of my married life has been post Dday. But, I can say with complete honesty that every aspect of my marriage is better now than it was before. I decided what R was going to look like before I talked to anyone or even read anything about reconciliation, and I was two years into it by the time I started posting on TAM. So maybe I was just too naive to know that your not supposed to have an absolutely amazing marriage after infidelity. I just went for it because I didn't know any better and had no reason to believe it couldn't happen. 

But then again, I notice something about most R stories on TAM. Successful R takes faith, dedication, honesty, and a hell of a lot of insight.
A lot of folks can only muster three.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Ok boys, let's not bring down the best thread on TAM.


Don't worry, Bfree. I've no intention of harming the thread. I'm not going to convince Blunt and he's not going to convince me. So ...that is what it is.


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## MattMatt

Rookie4 said:


> Don't worry, Bfree. I've no intention of harming the thread. I'm not going to convince Blunt and he's not going to convince me. So ...that is what it is.


Actually Rookie, I am sorry but you have already brought some harm to this Reconciliation thread. You don't believe in Reconciliation. Check! You feel contempt toward those of us who do believe in reconciliation? Check! You dislike older people who do not kowtow to your worldview? Check! 

I think that perhaps you need to start a new thread of your own, you could call it: "No Reconciliation here" and it would be a counterpart to this Reconciliation thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

MattMatt said:


> Actually Rookie, I am sorry but you have already brought some harm to this Reconciliation thread. You don't believe in Reconciliation. Check! You feel contempt toward those of us who do believe in reconciliation? Check! You dislike older people who do not kowtow to your worldview? Check!
> 
> I think that perhaps you need to start a new thread of your own, you could call it: "No Reconciliation here" and it would be a counterpart to this Reconciliation thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, Matt, you are wrong on all counts. 1. I don't think reconciliation is necessarily a good thing, but I do recognize that it happens, and is sometimes effective. 2.I have no contemptuous feelings for anyone, and actually like most of the people on this thread (even if I don't agree with them. 3. I do not expect anyone to "kowtow" to my views, but nor will I be patronized by any poster, just because they are older than I am. I am a "live and let live" kind of guy. If you don't want trouble, don't try to bust my chops..


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## Rookie4

My point is that I don't believe that old age automatically confers righteousness and credibility on a person. A good example is the insurance commercial about the old lady who "posts pictures on her wall" and 'un friends" the other woman. It is knowledge that brings credibility and young people have it as well as old people. I know many younger people who have vastly more life experience than older people, simply because they have done more and learned more.


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## Rookie4

My dog broke it's leg , last year. Our old family vet said that he would have to be put down. I took the dog to a younger vet and he repaired the dog's leg. If I had gone with the more experienced man, instead of the more learned one, the dog would be dead.


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## oneMOreguy

Rather than debate the wisdom of reconciliation on this thread. .... why not continue to let it be a support thread for those who are attempting R? Or can you just not let others go without whacking them over the head with your opinion?


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## jim123

Rookie,

You do need reconciliation. With yourself. That was the point of EI's post. There is no right nor wrong, just what is best for you.

There is a lot of conflict in you. Be honest with yourself and follow you path, which ever that is.

We need to respect those who make choices we do not. I did not R either nor do I think I can. I respect those who can.


----------



## the guy

oneMOreguy said:


> Rather than debate the wisdom of reconciliation on this thread. .... why not continue to let it be a support thread for those who are attempting R? Or can you just not let others go without whacking them over the head with your opinion?


Kinda like "wack-a-molel"?


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> My dog broke it's leg , last year. Our old family vet said that he would have to be put down. I took the dog to a younger vet and he repaired the dog's leg. If I had gone with the more experienced man, instead of the more learned one, the dog would be dead.


Rookie, as a lover of dogs I commend you for doing all that you could to save your canine companion. I am also a lover of marriage and because of that I applaud couples like EI and B1 for doing all they can to save their marriages. I am sure that if the vet told you that he could save your dog but it would be in constant pain the choice you made would not have been so clear. You may have had to terminate the dog's life. Some marriages cannot be reconciled and if forced the marriage would be in constant distress and should also be terminated. Thankfully both your dog and EI/B1's marriage was not beyond saving so let's just be thankful for both those blessed outcomes.


----------



## MattMatt

Rookie4 said:


> My dog broke it's leg , last year. Our old family vet said that he would have to be put down. I took the dog to a younger vet and he repaired the dog's leg. If I had gone with the more experienced man, instead of the more learned one, the dog would be dead.


Whilst it is good news about your dog, I knew an old doctor who went to study conferences every year to learn more, who knew much more than a young doctor in the practice who hadn't studied since he qualified.

In that case the older doctor was wiser and more knowledgeable than the younger doctor, and more up-to-date.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Rookie, as a lover of dogs I commend you for doing all that you could to save your canine companion. I am also a lover of marriage and because of that I applaud couples like EI and B1 for doing all they can to save their marriages. I am sure that if the vet told you that he could save your dog but it would be in constant pain the choice you made would not have been so clear. You may have had to terminate the dog's life. Some marriages cannot be reconciled and if forced the marriage would be in constant distress and should also be terminated. Thankfully both your dog and EI/B1's marriage was not beyond saving so let's just be thankful for both those blessed outcomes.


I fully support this . I don't think that EI and B1 are the only ones who have successfully reconciled, though. I can think of a few others, and the main and best reason seems to be that they have managed to rekindle the spark, that they once had. 
My main concern is not that reconciliation takes place, but it's motivation. Now..... before anyone has a hissy, let me say that EVERYONE is entitled to make their own choices, and NOBODY has to agree with me. Right?........So all of those posters who want to criticize, remember it's only my opinion.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> I fully support this . I don't think that EI and B1 are the only ones who have successfully reconciled, though. I can think of a few others, and the main and best reason seems to be that they have managed to rekindle the spark, that they once had.
> My main concern is not that reconciliation takes place, but it's motivation. Now..... before anyone has a hissy, let me say that EVERYONE is entitled to make their own choices, and NOBODY has to agree with me. Right?........So all of those posters who want to criticize, remember it's only my opinion.


That's something I don't fully comprehend. I can see how a program like Dr Harley's His Needs/Her Needs can help couples to stop and even reverse the build-up of resentment. But how do you rekindle the spark? That's the one thing that I am constantly working on in my marriage...not letting the spark die out. But how do you relight that pilot light once it's already out? It's the one aspect of EI and B1's reconciliation that blows me away. In my mind I can only surmise that God would just not let that marriage die. But if that's true does He not care about all the marriages that end in divorce?


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> That's something I don't fully comprehend. I can see how a program like Dr Harley's His Needs/Her Needs can help couples to stop and even reverse the build-up of resentment. But how do you rekindle the spark? That's the one thing that I am constantly working on in my marriage...not letting the spark die out. But how do you relight that pilot light once it's already out? It's the one aspect of EI and B1's reconciliation that blows me away. In my mind I can only surmise that God would just not let that marriage die. But if that's true does He not care about all the marriages that end in divorce?


Maybe EI amd B1 wanted to listen to the words that kept their marriage together?:scratchhead:


----------



## As'laDain

bfree said:


> That's something I don't fully comprehend. I can see how a program like Dr Harley's His Needs/Her Needs can help couples to stop and even reverse the build-up of resentment. But how do you rekindle the spark? That's the one thing that I am constantly working on in my marriage...not letting the spark die out. But how do you relight that pilot light once it's already out? It's the one aspect of EI and B1's reconciliation that blows me away. In my mind I can only surmise that God would just not let that marriage die. But if that's true does He not care about all the marriages that end in divorce?


akinaura and i do it through going back to dating and doing fun and adventurous stuff together.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Rookie4 said:


> I fully support this . I don't think that EI and B1 are the only ones who have successfully reconciled, though. I can think of a few others, and the main and best reason seems to be that they have managed to rekindle the spark, that they once had.
> My main concern is not that reconciliation takes place, but it's motivation. Now..... before anyone has a hissy, let me say that EVERYONE is entitled to make their own choices, and NOBODY has to agree with me. Right?........So all of those posters who want to criticize, remember it's only my opinion.


Our spark is definitely there...


----------



## IIJokerII

bfree said:


> That's something I don't fully comprehend. I can see how a program like Dr Harley's His Needs/Her Needs can help couples to stop and even reverse the build-up of resentment. But how do you rekindle the spark? That's the one thing that I am constantly working on in my marriage...not letting the spark die out. But how do you relight that pilot light once it's already out? It's the one aspect of EI and B1's reconciliation that blows me away. In my mind I can only surmise that God would just not let that marriage die. But if that's true does He not care about all the marriages that end in divorce?


Bfree,

I think you are giving people too much faith in terms of what can and cannot be done in a relationship, let alone life. I used to be defiant in my late great Aunts words of "It's just not meant to be". I was under the impression that hard effort and tenacity could trump the impossible. I used to take pride in this attitude.

But as I get older I found out that sometimes a goal can't be reached, a situation can't be avoided, material's cannot be obtained, and that when a loving relationship dies out, nothing can be done. Sometimes you just got to stop trying to free a fish from water.


----------



## bfree

IIJokerII said:


> Bfree,
> 
> I think you are giving people too much faith in terms of what can and cannot be done in a relationship, let alone life. I used to be defiant in my late great Aunts words of "It's just not meant to be". I was under the impression that hard effort and tenacity could trump the impossible. I used to take pride in this attitude.
> 
> But as I get older I found out that sometimes a goal can't be reached, a situation can't be avoided, material's cannot be obtained, and that when a loving relationship dies out, nothing can be done. Sometimes you just got to stop trying to free a fish from water.


Completely agree. Sometimes the dog just can't be saved and needs to be put down. I'm just in awe of the couples that manage to rekindle a spark after something like this. I know how hard it is to just simply maintain those loving feelings let alone trying to resurrect them. I guess I can't wrap my head around how they managed it. The mechanics to reconstruct something of that magnitude are just mind boggling to me.


----------



## As'laDain

bfree said:


> Completely agree. Sometimes the dog just can't be saved and needs to be put down. I'm just in awe of the couples that manage to rekindle a spark after something like this. I know how hard it is to just simply maintain those loving feelings let alone trying to resurrect them. I guess I can't wrap my head around how they managed it. The mechanics to reconstruct something of that magnitude are just mind boggling to me.


i dont think its all that complicated. first, you have to accept that the spark isnt there and learn to be ok with that. then, after you are both aware that the spark is not there but you are both committed to staying married and true to each other, you just go about making your partner your best friend. 

find things to do together that you both enjoy. that way, you can share in each others joy. say, for instance, both of you love to fish. well, if you both go fishing, you can both enjoy trading fishing stories and giving each other high fives when the other catches a nice sized bass. things like that. 

also, do things that are exciting. because when your all excited, who better to share that with than the person your married to? go on hikes, kayak, go to new places, play exciting games together, etc. share in each others hobbies so that you can share in your partners excitement when they accomplish something. 

do these things and before you know it, the spark comes back on its own.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

As'laDain said:


> i dont think its all that complicated. first, you have to accept that the spark isnt there and learn to be ok with that. then, after you are both aware that the spark is not there but you are both committed to staying married and true to each other, you just go about making your partner your best friend.
> 
> find things to do together that you both enjoy. that way, you can share in each others joy. say, for instance, both of you love to fish. well, if you both go fishing, you can both enjoy trading fishing stories and giving each other high fives when the other catches a nice sized bass. things like that.
> 
> also, do things that are exciting. because when your all excited, who better to share that with than the person your married to? go on hikes, kayak, go to new places, play exciting games together, etc. share in each others hobbies so that you can share in your partners excitement when they accomplish something.
> 
> do these things and before you know it, the spark comes back on its own.


This was exactly our path... wrapped in accountability and grace.


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## Rookie4

As'laDain said:


> i dont think its all that complicated. first, you have to accept that the spark isnt there and learn to be ok with that. then, after you are both aware that the spark is not there but you are both committed to staying married and true to each other, you just go about making your partner your best friend.
> 
> find things to do together that you both enjoy. that way, you can share in each others joy. say, for instance, both of you love to fish. well, if you both go fishing, you can both enjoy trading fishing stories and giving each other high fives when the other catches a nice sized bass. things like that.
> 
> also, do things that are exciting. because when your all excited, who better to share that with than the person your married to? go on hikes, kayak, go to new places, play exciting games together, etc. share in each others hobbies so that you can share in your partners excitement when they accomplish something.
> 
> do these things and before you know it, the spark comes back on its own.


Sorry, but we tried this. It was only partially effective. She regained the spark, I did not. I shudder to think that if I had stayed married to her, we would have had a marriage where we would always be settling for less.


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## soulpotato

As'laDain said:


> i dont think its all that complicated. first, you have to accept that the spark isnt there and learn to be ok with that. then, after you are both aware that the spark is not there but you are both committed to staying married and true to each other, you just go about making your partner your best friend.


It's extremely difficult for some of us to execute. I know that finding out that my (ex)-partner wasn't in love with me on top of the other issues we were having was just more than I could handle at the time. I wish I had been able to take your approach and say to myself, "Hey, this is okay," instead of freaking out.



As'laDain said:


> find things to do together that you both enjoy. that way, you can share in each others joy. say, for instance, both of you love to fish. well, if you both go fishing, you can both enjoy trading fishing stories and giving each other high fives when the other catches a nice sized bass. things like that.


There's also avoiding negativity - not only not expressing it, but also not responding to it - and that sometimes relationship problems and unresolved issues just have to be left alone while the betrayed partner heals, however long that takes. I had thought we could do both - work on the relationship and ourselves - but that approach doesn't work for everyone, and it didn't work for my partner.


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## soulpotato

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but we tried this. It was only partially effective. She regained the spark, I did not. I shudder to think that if I had stayed married to her, we would have had a marriage where we would always be settling for less.


Sounds like you had an anti-spark happening there! 

For some people, I think it's that they'd rather have "less" with a certain person than have everything with someone else. You might be lacking certain things with that person, but they might be a very special person and "more" in that than many others would be.


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## Blossom Leigh

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but we tried this. It was only partially effective. She regained the spark, I did not. I shudder to think that if I had stayed married to her, we would have had a marriage where we would always be settling for less.


This is the risk she took.


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## EI

bfree said:


> That's something I don't fully comprehend. I can see how a program like Dr Harley's His Needs/Her Needs can help couples to stop and even reverse the build-up of resentment. But how do you rekindle the spark? That's the one thing that I am constantly working on in my marriage...not letting the spark die out. But how do you relight that pilot light once it's already out? It's the one aspect of EI and B1's reconciliation that blows me away. In my mind I can only surmise that God would just not let that marriage die. But if that's true does He not care about all the marriages that end in divorce?


I think, in our situation, B1 and I were not actually rekindling the spark, or relighting the pilot light. After, what was then, 28 years of marriage, preceded by a 3 year courtship, we were only just beginning to truly light our fire, together, for the very first time. Looking back, I believe that B1 had most likely always had lower than average Testosterone levels. We had been very much in love, earlier in our marriage, but I had initially fallen in love with a very different man than the man I'm married to today. This marriage is a new marriage. It is a whole new "in love." It's not the same "in love" as before.


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## As'laDain

EI said:


> I think, in our situation, B1 and I were not actually rekindling the spark, or relighting the pilot light. After, what was then, 28 years of marriage, preceded by a 3 year courtship, we were only just beginning to truly light our fire, together, for the very first time. Looking back, I believe that B1 had most likely always had lower than average Testosterone levels. We had been very much in love, earlier in our marriage, but I had initially fallen in love with a very different man than the man I'm married to today. This marriage is a new marriage. It is a whole new "in love." It's not the same "in love" as before.


this is something that i have trouble explaining, and i think only someone who has been through it can really understand. 

the love, the intimacy, the romance...

it all feels different from what it was before. its new. not just "another, again, renewed"

i mean, it feels NEW, as in, never experienced this before.


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> I think, in our situation, B1 and I were not actually rekindling the spark, or relighting the pilot light. After, what was then, 28 years of marriage, preceded by a 3 year courtship, we were only just beginning to truly light our fire, together, for the very first time. Looking back, I believe that B1 had most likely always had lower than average Testosterone levels. We had been very much in love, earlier in our marriage, but I had initially fallen in love with a very different man than the man I'm married to today. This marriage is a new marriage. It is a whole new "in love." It's not the same "in love" as before.


I actually can get behind this, if.....and it's a big if....both parties feel the same way. In Sweetie and my situation, she fell in love with me.....but I didn't with her...for numerous reasons, many having to do with the adultery.


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## As'laDain

Rookie4 said:


> I actually can get behind this, if.....and it's a big if....both parties feel the same way. In Sweetie and my situation, she fell in love with me.....but I didn't with her...for numerous reasons, many having to do with the adultery.


then either you did not know how to really get passed it or she was not able to do what you needed her to do in order for you to get passed it. there is not really anything wrong with that...


but for the sake of the board, do you know which one it was?


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## bfree

As'laDain said:


> then either you did not know how to really get passed it or she was not able to do what you needed her to do in order for you to get passed it. there is not really anything wrong with that...
> 
> 
> but for the sake of the board, do you know which one it was?


I don't want to speak for rookie but if I'm not mistaken he had already met his current gf before he and sweetie decided to give it another go. Note, I don't know his gf but from his descriptions of her she sounds like a fantastic woman. I'd find it hard to walk away from that if I were in his shoes.


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## As'laDain

bfree said:


> I don't want to speak for rookie but if I'm not mistaken he had already met his current gf before he and sweetie decided to give it another go. Note, I don't know his gf but from his descriptions of her she sounds like a fantastic woman. I'd find it hard to walk away from that if I were in his shoes.


oh... so R wasnt really a concern. someone better came along.


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## bfree

As'laDain said:


> oh... so R wasnt really a concern. someone better came along.


I think rookie was sincere in his desire to attempt R but he had already transferred his feelings to another woman. Remember that the new woman had not betrayed him and as it happens has turned out to be a very special lady. And having been separated and effectively detached from his ex those romantic feelings were probably more difficult to rekindle than if they'd remained together.


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## calvin

Merry Christmas everyone and your families.
Lot of good people here.
Me and CSS are doing good,she has stepped it up and I have finally
just decided to let somethings die,the past is just that.
The past.
Hope you all have a great Christmas with your families,I know I will,my boy is
going to be very happy tomorrow morning,so will the rest of the fam,including me.
Take care,talk to you soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## harrybrown

I have felt in limbo some days, and doing better on other days.

I do feel like my wife has been trying to do everything she can now.

She has surprised me a couple of times. Makes me glad that we are still together.

Makes for much better days. Hoping for more better times, and hoping that limbo goes away.


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## TBT

_*Merry Christmas to you all! A difficult journey that can be rewarding.*_


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## calvin

harrybrown said:


> I have felt in limbo some days, and doing better on other days.
> 
> I do feel like my wife has been trying to do everything she can now.
> 
> She has surprised me a couple of times. Makes me glad that we are still together.
> 
> Makes for much better days. Hoping for more better times, and hoping that limbo goes away.


Sounds like things are headed in the right direction Harry,hang in there man.
They loves us,we know it,I know it.
Merry Christmas my friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thummper

Merry Christmas to Calvin and CSS! Another great year ahead.


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## Rookie4

As'laDain said:


> oh... so R wasnt really a concern. someone better came along.


Bfree has told you basically what went on. I was genuine in my desire to R, for a number of very good reasons, but my feelings for my EX and my feelings for my GF were naturally very confusing and it wasn't until I got them straightened out, that I realized that my romantic feelings were for my GF. That put an end to my attempt at R, as I was not going to be dishonest with anyone.


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## As'laDain

Rookie4 said:


> Bfree has told you basically what went on. I was genuine in my desire to R, for a number of very good reasons, but my feelings for my EX and my feelings for my GF were naturally very confusing and it wasn't until I got them straightened out, that I realized that my romantic feelings were for my GF. That put an end to my attempt at R, as I was not going to be dishonest with anyone.


nothing wrong with that. i wasnt being sarcastic. 

just remember to keep working on ways to produce the environment where you will feel the feelings that are important to you. if your relationship with your girlfriend becomes stale, you know what you have to do. either find ways to "date" her again, or find someone else. just keep being honest about it like you have been.


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## calvin

thummper said:


> Merry Christmas to Calvin and CSS! Another great year ahead.


HappHappy New Year Thump,everybody else also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## harrybrown

Missed this R posting. Bump.

Sometimes events have a big impact.

So my wife was in a car wreck, fine physically.

The other driver, male, had road rage. My wife started to get out of the car. He came out and his son was with him. He started cussing, screaming, kicking our car. She did not get all the way out. She went back in, locked the doors and made sure he saw her calling 911. He keyed the car, tore off the windshield wipers, kicked the car and dented it. He tried to break the windows. He was cursing and screaming the entire time. 

She was crying and talking to the 911 operator. He kept it up, until he heard the sirens, then he got back into his car. 

The police did get there. I was in a meeting at work. One of my daughters called the office and told the receptionist to get me out of the meeting.

I tried to find out where my wife was, and one of the officer's got on the phone and told me not to come, because he could tell that I was mad. He did not want me to make the situation worse. So I told him that my son played on the line in high school football. (about 10 years ago) He is a big young man. How about if I send him over? The officer told me not to send him either. And if I came to the wreck, he would give me a citation. So I quit talking and sent my grandson that plays high school football now, with his Mom. (one of our daughters)

It took us a couple of days to get her out of the house again. And a couple more to drive again. But it is not over. We go to court the end of the next month. Both drivers received tickets.

However his ticket is for a criminal charge. Good lesson for me on anger management for me. Feeling compassion for my wife and her having to have that horrible experience. She is a nurse and does try to be helpful and nice to most people. One son-in-law is an attorney. He has given me names of some attorneys that are here locally.

Really hope that my wife gets over the emotional trauma. Too much anger in some folks. At least he did not break the windows and get to her physically.


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## bfree

Harry, I'm so sorry that your wife had to go through that. It's probably best that you didn't go to the accident scene. I wouldn't have been able to control my anger either. Just be patient and loving with your wife. I know you're still angry but don't let her see you angry regardless of who it's directed to. She's still emotionally shattered and she needs you to be her calm steady rock in the midst of this turmoil.


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## Mr Blunt

Harry

Glad your wife did not get hurt. She also demonstrated that she has a cool head; locked the doors and called 911.

Harry, I fully understand your rage. Any man that does what he did to your wife makes a husband go ballistic; if that man wanted to get hostile he can get hostile with your son, your grandson or you (That would be his mistake). Years ago I took matters into my own hands when a man harmed my daughter and I was lucky; he did not press charges. If he pressed charges then I would have an assault record for the rest of my life. When a man hurts our women most husbands/fathers have a very hard time restraining themselves.

I do not take the law into my own hands now because I am too old and there are usually better ways to handle the situation; now I hire lawyers! Just have your attorney make sure that the road rage man gets his day in court for his criminal acts and then you comfort your wife as much as possible.

We just cannot handle things like we did in the old days; too many laws now, even in the Wild West state of Arizona.


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## Blossom Leigh

I am so glad she had the mind to get behind locked doors... geeze. Thinking of y'all... hope she recovers well..


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## sammy3

Wow so sorry that your wife experienced that Harry! Did she have a smart phone to video tape the crazy guy?

I know when I first found out about my husband affair, the anger and rage that stayed with me for a good 22 month it's amazing I too didn't do things like this to others. ((and I'm a nice calm person by nature)) When I think back at what a horrible emotion those two things are and to what level of depth they can bring one too, its so frighting... 

So sorry Harry she experience this, it's too can be an incredible step to bring each other closer... 

~sammy


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## TBT

Bump because it's too valuable to slip into obscurity. Those who choose to try reconciliation need to know that there can be hope.


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## calvin

Yup.
There is hope.
I'm proof.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TBT

calvin said:


> Yup.
> There is hope.
> I'm proof.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I haven't been on the boards much lately,but I caught up on your thread calvin. Nice to see you and CSS are doing well.


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## jld

My favorite part of B1 and EI's story is when he told her he wanted to hear all the things that he had done to hurt her. It must have been so healing for her to hear that request, and to know she could safely pour her heart out to him.


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## EI

jld said:


> My favorite part of B1 and EI's story is when he told her he wanted to hear all the things that he had done to hurt her. It must have been so healing for her to hear that request, and to know she could safely pour her heart out to him.


To me, B1 is the most beautiful soul on Earth. There has not been a single day go by in the last "almost" 4 years, that B1 hasn't expressed, with both his words and his actions, his great love for me. Not one. Whoever it was that said "you can't nice someone back into a relationship" cannot speak for the two of us, because that is exactly what B1 and his love for me has done. He loved new life into "us." 

And, yes, jld, I cannot tell you how healing that was. According to TAM, reconciliation is supposed to be grueling and hard. For us, R has been a time of coming together and growing closer than we have ever been in our entire relationship. At times, especially during that first year of R, it was very painful and emotionally draining for both of us. But, the rewards of communicating with B1, with that much intensity, have brought us to a place of emotional and physical intimacy that we have never experienced before. After 4 years, our love, our bond, and our commitment, to one another, still continues to deepen every day. He just amazes me. And, I enthusiastically worship the ground he walks on. 

I am blessed that B1 had the wisdom to discern between the advice that was given to him on TAM that which was good, and right, and healthy, versus that which was punitive, destructive, and vengeance seeking. The former brought us together, the later..... well, it couldn't have destroyed us any more than we were already destroyed, but it would have destroyed any opportunity for us to become who and what we are together now. Even though we might never have known what we could have had together, it's sad to think we could be missing out on all of this.


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## As'laDain

my personal philosophy on reconciliation probably comes across as cold. 

personally, i don't care what my wife feels or thinks or intends. i want to lead her. nothing more. 


i want to influence her. in order to do that, i have to know how she acts. i have to accept her for who she is at the time. otherwise, i could never effectively influence her. as much as i might hate to say it, my wife is who she is. 

and that's OK. if she is someone i cannot live with, than i will let her know. if she cannot live without me, she will change. if she can, then she will not. its up to her. 


my job is not to make her into someone i can love, but rather to accept who and what she is. from that point, i can accurately assess what i need from her. 

basically, i cannot be afraid of change if i want to stay with someone who has betrayed me. i have to change. while i may not like it at first, it says nothing about what i am. or how much i am worth. 





i really don't care about what my wife put me through in the past. she is a different person. the person i have now is an enigma. and a miracle. and a dream come true. 

in other words, **** the past. **** that nonsense. akinaura is a new person. 

and that's how i see her.


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## Rookie4

EI said:


> To me, B1 is the most beautiful soul on Earth. There has not been a single day go by in the last "almost" 4 years, that B1 hasn't expressed, with both his words and his actions, his great love for me. Not one. Whoever it was that said "you can't nice someone back into a relationship" cannot speak for the two of us, because that is exactly what B1 and his love for me has done. He loved new life into "us."
> 
> And, yes, jld, I cannot tell you how healing that was. According to TAM, reconciliation is supposed to be grueling and hard. For us, R has been a time of coming together and growing closer than we have ever been in our entire relationship. At times, especially during that first year of R, it was very painful and emotionally draining for both of us. But, the rewards of communicating with B1, with that much intensity, have brought us to a place of emotional and physical intimacy that we have never experienced before. After 4 years, our love, our bond, and our commitment, to one another, still continues to deepen every day. He just amazes me. And, I enthusiastically worship the ground he walks on.
> 
> I am blessed that B1 had the wisdom to discern between the advice that was given to him on TAM that which was good, and right, and healthy, versus that which was punitive, destructive, and vengeance seeking. The former brought us together, the later..... well, it couldn't have destroyed us any more than we were already destroyed, but it would have destroyed any opportunity for us to become who and what we are together now. Even though we might never have known what we could have had together, it's sad to think we could be missing out on all of this.


I would like to add a cautionary note here. Both EI and B realise that they are incredibly fortunate. B1 is a wonderful, understanding man, and EI is a truly, deeply remorseful FWW. Frankly, their story is an exception to the rule. Rarely are both the BS and WS on the same page. In most situations, one or the other will still be dealing with the emotional fallout for years. Happy stories like theirs, do happen, but most of us have issues that require us to take a different approach.


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## larry.gray

Spain and Jamaica? Sounds like fun Rookie. 

I hope you and ex are doing well. I hope she's learned to forgive herself, and doesn't spend the rest of her life pining away for you... either that or you two are able to end up back together.


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## ConanHub

EI said:


> To me, B1 is the most beautiful soul on Earth. There has not been a single day go by in the last "almost" 4 years, that B1 hasn't expressed, with both his words and his actions, his great love for me. Not one. Whoever it was that said "you can't nice someone back into a relationship" cannot speak for the two of us, because that is exactly what B1 and his love for me has done. He loved new life into "us."
> 
> And, yes, jld, I cannot tell you how healing that was. According to TAM, reconciliation is supposed to be grueling and hard. For us, R has been a time of coming together and growing closer than we have ever been in our entire relationship. At times, especially during that first year of R, it was very painful and emotionally draining for both of us. But, the rewards of communicating with B1, with that much intensity, have brought us to a place of emotional and physical intimacy that we have never experienced before. After 4 years, our love, our bond, and our commitment, to one another, still continues to deepen every day. He just amazes me. And, I enthusiastically worship the ground he walks on.
> 
> I am blessed that B1 had the wisdom to discern between the advice that was given to him on TAM that which was good, and right, and healthy, versus that which was punitive, destructive, and vengeance seeking. The former brought us together, the later..... well, it couldn't have destroyed us any more than we were already destroyed, but it would have destroyed any opportunity for us to become who and what we are together now. Even though we might never have known what we could have had together, it's sad to think we could be missing out on all of this.


He didn't "nice" you back.

He loved you back.

He had hard requirements and boundaries he expected you to comply with or he was gone.

He expected the same of himself.

That wasn't "nice".

That was needed.

That was love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI

*Re: Reconciliation.*



ConanHub said:


> He didn't "nice" you back.
> 
> He loved you back.
> 
> He had hard requirements and boundaries he expected you to comply with or he was gone.
> 
> He expected the same of himself.
> 
> That wasn't "nice".
> 
> That was needed.
> 
> That was love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You said that so beautifully, Conan. It caught me at an emotional time and it made me cry, but it's a good cry. I guess anyone can act nice, but to genuinely love someone the way B1 loves me, and the way I love him, goes far beyond just being _nice_ doesn't it? He loves me so completely, and I'd be lying if I didn't say that his love makes me a better person. Loving someone is amazing. Being loved back by that same someone makes life beautiful no matter what challenges life brings. B1 is so incredible, I wish you all could know him.


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## ConanHub

Through both of your posts, a pretty good picture of B1 has formed for me.

I didn't initially respect him.

Respect comes very hard and slow from me.

One of your more recent posts gave me a more complete picture of him and my respect for him came with it.

God bless you two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> Spain and Jamaica? Sounds like fun Rookie.
> 
> I hope you and ex are doing well. I hope she's learned to forgive herself, and doesn't spend the rest of her life pining away for you... either that or you two are able to end up back together.


Hiya, Larry:smile2: Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. GF and I are farmers now, but we own places in both countries, for vacations and such. Ex and I are both doing extremely well. I don't get to talk to her very much , but she's engaged to a really nice guy and they are moving to the coast (west) after the school year is over, because his son is going to go to USC.


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## TBT

bump


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## TBT

bump for both sides of the coin


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## Hurtin_Still

TBT said:


> bump for both sides of the coin


....the "coin" .... is tarnish.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## TBT

bump


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## ConanHub

This is a great resource for anyone, BS or WS, to give many helpful ideas for healthy recovery.


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## sidney2718

ConanHub said:


> This is a great resource for anyone, BS or WS, to give many helpful ideas for healthy recovery.


Amen!


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## Nrecnocymton

I'll take the audiobook version.....807 pages of reading.. woof.


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## StillSearching

This is a good book for the WS to read and follow.
"How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair"


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## MattMatt

Zombie Cat decrees that this thread must be closed:-


----------

